The Accidental Tech Podcast

61: Perfectly Neutral

 

  So your tweet about us having thin topics like oh there's a lot of stuff we didn't get that for wearables [TS]

  but after that you read them are topics I didn't want to know I guess it was a popular item [TS]

  but just one last week we were talking about how if you have some sort of service that deals with your photos [TS]

  and lets you share them no matter what cool features you have you've got at least also have a way to send a link to [TS]

  somebody they can view and any web browser and we also talked about photo stream an I O. [TS]

  Us integration and stuff like that. [TS]

  And although we didn't come out [TS]

  and say it directly the implication was that sort of stream did not have a public euro [TS]

  but for a stream does that public your all you can make a little yourself [TS]

  or a website that you can share with somebody that lets them see the pictures in your photo stream. [TS]

  I use mostly with my family and my family has I.O.'s devices [TS]

  and the great thing about that is it notifies you on your phone or on your i Pad And [TS]

  when you get the notification you need to swipe and see the pictures immediately. [TS]

  It's of much superior interface for viewing pictures but you've always got to have that web interface underneath all [TS]

  and this came up in the kind of Carousel which I think he said they didn't have a way if you could just get an easy web [TS]

  link that was my experience that's correct. [TS]

  So I emailed what was to Carousel a completely random e-mail address that wasn't associated with a Dropbox account [TS]

  email address in fact it was my work email and [TS]

  when I received the e-mail from personal mean I'm doing that in air quotes to work me the work e-mail basically said [TS]

  hey you need to install carousel if you want to do anything useful and I think it did have like six [TS]

  or seven pictures in it. [TS]

  Little little thumbnails of the pictures and I'd actually selected so was like stock photography or anything like that. [TS]

  But with that said it didn't it didn't do anything and there was no Web based link it basically said go to the app [TS]

  or get the hell out of here that we have anymore follow up in any case if you feel like you need to follow up at all. [TS]

  I mean topics from last week you know you did Casey do you want to tell us all what you did post. No I don't know. [TS]

  I'm I'm a little not bitter little frustrated with the feedback from last week [TS]

  and I was debating talking about it in since you've prompted me I'll go ahead and do so [TS]

  and just make my world even worse for myself. [TS]

  And the thing that frustrated me about the feedback we received is that there were a few instances [TS]

  and Mark at words is from the Django Django I was Prancer on I'm so sorry Mark. [TS]

  But anyway he wrote a relatively long missive that he put up as a just a guess whatever on my thing [TS]

  and I just thank you and doubted myself anyways. Mata whack. [TS]

  So he put up a jest [TS]

  and then he explained as someone who used to do this sort of thing for a living why vinyl is basically the most evil [TS]

  thing in the world and well I don't entirely agree with what he said. [TS]

  I can't really factually debate it and so things like that [TS]

  when Will will put a link in the show notes that was actually welcome and useful [TS]

  but I got a lot of feedback we got a lot of feedback [TS]

  and I got a lot of feedback which basically amounted to I read something on the internet once. It must be true. [TS]

  You're crazy and stupid [TS]

  and that kind of bothers me a little bit because it was oftentimes not really based in fact Or sometimes it was [TS]

  but never ever ever based on experience and I'm not going to try to rehash the argument [TS]

  but suffice to say I put a lot more stock [TS]

  when I receive feedback from someone who has had the experience of listening to vinyl on a really nice set up over [TS]

  someone who has just read some things or seen some stuff on the Internet and swears that that's true. [TS]

  Now yes there's a lot of science behind it. Yes I understand that. Yes I'm probably crazy. [TS]

  All of that is fine I agree I understand it it was probably silly of me to say that the fidelity of. [TS]

  I know it was better than the fidelity of C.D.'s but [TS]

  when it comes down to it something I said on Twitter which actually is fairly proud of myself I'm patting myself on the [TS]

  back is that it's very kind of cliché but life is what happens between one and zero in my eyes and whether [TS]

  or not the accuracy of the reproduction on vinyl or CD is better. [TS]

  I just happen to prefer the feel [TS]

  and to some degree the what do you call it the T something I already forgot ceremony [TS]

  and I think the ceremony you know I'm I know what you mean so I prefer the tea ceremony of it [TS]

  and the only thing I will say to defend myself other than come at me once you've had personal experience you damn nerds [TS]

  you know me other thing I'll say is Why is it John that you choose to drive a manual transmission in two thousand [TS]

  and fourteen that's not even close to a fair comparison. [TS]

  Oh no I was going to let you slide but you kind of you come back at me with this [TS]

  and you just like that what I was going to let slide is the time that thing with life is what happens [TS]

  when you want to zero that like that vaguely allude to terrible illogical reasoning behind crazy you know like I know [TS]

  you know I thought we did getting it at all. [TS]

  Like I understand but the fact that you chose to use one and zero is like another nudge it like that. [TS]

  C'mon guys we all know that digital stuff is not a feeling and you know I mean like this is an I did I do that [TS]

  but then you came like I found the feedback frustrating as well [TS]

  and you would think I wouldn't want to be that pressure because I think that most of the feedback agreed with Marco [TS]

  and I but I found the bag very frustrating because I mean this is a common phenomenon of the back for the show. [TS]

  Very often we will get feedback and I don't want the topic [TS]

  and past shows everything where someone will be I mean it's not bad feedback is good for the shows [TS]

  and some you know some of the big fan of the show right in [TS]

  and this is in some ways this is the best kind of feedback that whether we like listening to your show maybe think [TS]

  about this and here is what I think about it and they'll present a bunch of ideas about the topic. [TS]

  But what I find frustrating is a lot of the time the ideas they present are things that we talked about on the show [TS]

  and you don't want to write back and say you know we talked about that this exact thing going on the show [TS]

  but then it sounds like you're not valuing their feedback [TS]

  and it's good that they're enthusiastic about a sometimes it's frustrating to see like I fail I obviously failed to [TS]

  communicate this idea because it keeps coming back to me as if it's information that we're missing [TS]

  or if it's new information or new insights [TS]

  and like we talked about for fifteen minutes we said almost these exact words [TS]

  and it's like sometimes it's people sometimes people sending feedback in real time where they listen [TS]

  and then I guess they cause it or whatever and then they write their you know three page missive [TS]

  and then they start playing again. [TS]

  You know as I haven't gotten into the pod gets I realize we addressed the point [TS]

  and I happen to tweet you know obviously it's fine. [TS]

  Some of that happens with us too [TS]

  but a lot of the feedback was like presenting points back to any of us me Marco you that I thought of because where we [TS]

  covered on the show like we talked about these exact things and it's like maybe we're not communicating effectively [TS]

  or are just like we're talking past our audience [TS]

  or something in the same way I saw a lot of arguments directed both Casey [TS]

  and US that I thought we talked about on the show and address all different sides of coming back at us you know [TS]

  and the arguments that I thought I had you know refuted [TS]

  and settled down arguments the case he never made arguments that we never made decisions that we never staked out to [TS]

  say you know the whole nine yards like this is obviously a very fraught issue [TS]

  and I think the problem you're still having with it [TS]

  and I think you know continue to have with that is that you just got out like you have to just make it clear what it is [TS]

  like you know like in a world in an underwear like moving the goalposts the enemy clear what everybody's talking about [TS]

  to this point I think everybody on this part of us all agrees it's just that you keep wanting to put the goal posts [TS]

  over there and that's what we're talking about I mean I'm going to put the goal posts over here in Britain this is [TS]

  and and and and original and I'm trying to give them kind of where the original thing was which was the whole idea. [TS]

  An R.L. Talk where Faith said I'm not going to buy a device that purports to have high quality music and you're right. [TS]

  Fidelity is a better word is point out to us by Dr Dre [TS]

  and we should've been using that word which could be part of the communication problem here. [TS]

  But anyway I'm not going to buy a device like the PO now because if I want high quality meaning high fidelity music [TS]

  I'll just listen to vinyl [TS]

  and that I think is a clear you know a clear implication that like we're talking about the pano in the whole big deal [TS]

  with that is like there is you know there's more information in the music [TS]

  and it's like it was I want more information in the music of I want higher fidelity if I want to more accurate [TS]

  reproduction of sound I will go to vinyl and you seem to fall down the trail [TS]

  and my objection America's objection is that like you know vinyl is not good at reproducing sound not as good as CD [TS]

  and although some I think are great for us to talk about [TS]

  and it's good to define the boundaries of what we believe in everything that I like you should be happy with that. [TS]

  It's not as if we like it it's not as if you should you shouldn't cling to that idea like that fidelity thing [TS]

  and that's not what you're talking about then. Fine then you agree with us there and we agree with you. [TS]

  However the tea ceremony and everybody's happy [TS]

  and that one of things that he keeps getting thrown back in is like I like to read like to reframe the arguments in the [TS]

  popular one is like I said look if I'm really interested in High Fidelity images I'll go to Instagram. [TS]

  I get that the effect of the argument they're making like you know I don't need a full frame camera with with a really [TS]

  great sensor and lots of megapixels. [TS]

  If I'm interested in photographing for the ality I will look at a camera phone picture of a nice night joints a gram. [TS]

  I guess the argument that many people are making [TS]

  and unknowingly that they're making that they're completely combining what they think looks good which may be like a [TS]

  super grainy Instagram filter. [TS]

  And the concept of fidelity which is a straight forward thing that can be measured talked about in objective terms [TS]

  moralist and young people coming back. [TS]

  What I love to bands [TS]

  and everything like that you know instead of digital it's like that's not what we're talking about. [TS]

  Like whatever whatever it is do you. Think sounds good. [TS]

  All we're talking about is given that sound that I probably made a mistake in the live insurance because I had to deal [TS]

  with all the people who are going to live music. Give them something even some sound that you think is awesome. [TS]

  What is the best way to transport that sound through space and time to reproduce it elsewhere. [TS]

  That's all we're talking about it has nothing to do it whether you like to banter saws they bands they like six tring [TS]

  to bars or five string whether you like someone sing into a paper bag [TS]

  or whatever the sound is you've produced a sound a song live recorded whatever you want to get that across space [TS]

  and time to someone else you want to put it on something so that that sound that you love can get to them exactly as it [TS]

  is to have whatever that sound is. Master however you want to where you want how do you get that sound. [TS]

  CD verses while that's what we were talking about everything else is like immaterial I don't care if you like the sound [TS]

  of silence singing through a paper bag [TS]

  or another no not talking about bio I don't care if you like Tom Waits I don't care if you know what kind of music you [TS]

  are listening you have it you have something there [TS]

  and then live music was easy because like oh I hear that now you just want to put that on something so it could be [TS]

  played back elsewhere and if your choices are CD and vinyl [TS]

  and you care about the fidelity of the reproduction you should pick a CD instead of vinyl and that's it. [TS]

  And everything else people want to talk about. [TS]

  It's so hard for them to maintain focus it was hard for us to maintain folks who have drifting [TS]

  but it's a difficult topic to talk about I think and I think you're right [TS]

  and I think I think you're right in saying that we all agree that if if a deli is truly the issue that I can get behind [TS]

  the science even though I give it a little bit aside I never saw last I can get behind the science that says I'm crazy [TS]

  and that digital mediums are the better hire the daily method of reproducing music [TS]

  but just as you said I actually happen to prefer the tea ceremony the emotion behind like I was talking to my wife Erin [TS]

  about it she said well you know you have to consider you grew up with final [TS]

  and this was something that had that carries a lot of emotional baggage I think John one of you guys might have said [TS]

  that last week. Anyway it carries a lot of emotional baggage that for most. Humans especially in this day and age. [TS]

  They don't have that emotional baggage. [TS]

  And I say baggage actually in a good way in this context I'm sure you probably think of it that's a bad thing. [TS]

  But nevertheless I know one thing I learned from this [TS]

  and I'm really being serious is that it is very frustrating to say something which admittedly is a bit contrarian [TS]

  and admittedly I did kind of pick this fight so admittedly I kind of made this head for myself [TS]

  but man is it frustrating to say something that you truly believe [TS]

  and then the whole of the Internet decides to come out [TS]

  and tell you how wrong you are in that in of itself I can deal with that that's fine I've been wrong point times will [TS]

  be wrong plenty of times again [TS]

  but it was very frustrating for me to receive a whole bunch of feedback from people who had perhaps never even heard [TS]

  vinyl before in their lives yet decided to take the time out of their day to explain to me how wrong I am [TS]

  and I actually want. [TS]

  I'm twisting this not [TS]

  and I don't want it to sound like a complaint what I want to sound like is I learned a little bit that I think I do [TS]

  that to people sometimes [TS]

  and I can think of a great example other than maybe snickering at somebody pulling out an Android phone for example [TS]

  but let me get that for you here. [TS]

  I don't I don't want to be that guy and I think I am that guy [TS]

  and it so was a very good learning experience for me that I need to stop being that guy. Does that make sense. [TS]

  Yeah I think I don't know I mean you know we're always going to get the guy so much more to say about this [TS]

  but I'm trying to resist. [TS]

  We're always going to get you know people who disagree with what we say we always do every week I mean we get to give [TS]

  listeners some idea. We get probably I would say twenty feedback e-mails a day. These days it's a lot. [TS]

  I'm shocked how much feedback we get from the show. [TS]

  And I should quit very quickly interject and say I can't speak for you too [TS]

  but I try very hard to read every single piece and at worst skim every single piece of feedback that we do. [TS]

  Yeah me too and it's he really does like when you only get like a couple a week. That's easy to keep up with. [TS]

  Now it's getting hard to keep up with my kids. [TS]

  It's getting we get so much out it's kind of difficult because some of them you know some of them are a few lines [TS]

  and that's great. [TS]

  Some of them are like six paragraphs six dense paragraphs at that [TS]

  and those like it takes some serious time to get through it. [TS]

  But anyway you know I think we we are expressing our opinions in public. [TS]

  Lots of what we say is going to be argued with. That's just the nature of putting yourself out there. Right right. [TS]

  I like I mean I've I've been putting myself out there in my and my often rash or incorrect [TS]

  or badly stated opinions out there online for the better part of a decade now pretty consistently [TS]

  and whenever I say something that everyone jumps down my throat for for being totally wrong or off base [TS]

  or are misinformed or just just not very well stated. [TS]

  I learned something from that and I appreciate that because most people don't expose themselves to that much criticism. [TS]

  Most people don't have an audience to tell them when they're wrong and who actually will tell them [TS]

  when they're wrong and an audience that's big and diverse and smart enough to notice when they're wrong [TS]

  and to be able to express that in any kind of useful way. [TS]

  So most people tend to be terrible arguers have narrow world views etc etc And it's hard to get people to change their [TS]

  mind when they spend their whole life thinking that they're right and no one has really ever challenged him on that. [TS]

  So I'm very thankful that we have the opportunity which most people don't have. [TS]

  We we as pod cast or as anyone else who's a pod cast or a blogger or any other way that you can put yourself out there. [TS]

  We are lucky that we have the opportunity to be criticised by a massive worldwide audience. Even if your audience is. [TS]

  Twenty five people. [TS]

  That's still twenty five random strangers who don't care as much about how you feel as your family does [TS]

  and who are willing to tell you when you screw something up and you know as the audience gets larger It hurts more [TS]

  when you screw up because you have more people telling you that you're an idiot. [TS]

  But I think it is useful and it's useful [TS]

  and so like in your case you know as John said like in your case you have you know with that with the vinyl thing like [TS]

  you expressed valid opinions there. [TS]

  However you word of them in a way and you made a generalization that you couldn't support [TS]

  and so the feedback kept beating that into your head. And this is true and it's you know it certainly was not. [TS]

  Certainly was not probably easy to read everyone saying that you were wrong although by the way there are a lot of [TS]

  people who agree with you. [TS]

  I should point out but like your main your main point was that it sounds better because it sounded better to you. [TS]

  A solid argument would have been you like the sound better right and I do [TS]

  and I think I fell on my face because I painted it like John was saying [TS]

  and like you're saying now I painted it as a universal statement [TS]

  when I really shouldn't have that it was factually better that it it was superior to C.D.'s [TS]

  and while I might prefer the experience [TS]

  and in the quirks of the sound I don't think that I should have gone as bold as I did [TS]

  and as one of the feedback things actually couple people did us like for that if if we could just take that sound that [TS]

  you love and recorded on to see the [TS]

  and play it back to you in a way that you didn't know whether we were playing back the vinyl [TS]

  or not you you would not be able to tell like we would be exactly accurate if you're producing that vinyl sound that [TS]

  you love with every nuance to the help of you know what I mean like. [TS]

  And that that's gets to the heart of the matter and we're all for you liking whatever sound you like [TS]

  but like we're talking about when we talk about mediums [TS]

  and we just say the word vinyl you're not talking about his song or a sound you're talking about a medium and that's. [TS]

  And that's a different alphabet so many different ways to try to come at this trying to get people to understand what [TS]

  is keep going back to whichever side they're on where they're like No way and then vinyls awesome [TS]

  or like vinyl is always evil like people just don't want to define the boundaries of what it is that they're saying [TS]

  and it's impossible to come to any sort of agreement or disagreement if [TS]

  but if no one is defining the boundaries of what they're saying a lot of like the special between frankly you can't [TS]

  blame it's hard to talk about this in a single tweet fell victim to that both you know on all sides of the debate are [TS]

  the best ones where they say I like tweets on any topic of us I I agree with Casey about this I agree with Mark about [TS]

  this I disagree with John about this [TS]

  and they will ascribe to all three of us opinions that like that fifty percent time we didn't take [TS]

  and I think you know I agree with Largo that that Starbucks coffee is great I agree with Casey that all cars should be [TS]

  black and I agree with John the pearls is terrible language you know that's a silly example [TS]

  but it's like you put our names in a tweet and you've expressed your own opinions [TS]

  but you have by implication the scribe the opposite opinions to us and I don't think we ever anyway. [TS]

  But if the excitement of feedback I agree with Mark getting of the feedback as I've said many times is very valuable. [TS]

  We're lucky to get a lot of it you too can get a lot of it as well if you just go to online communities [TS]

  and whatever topic you're interested in [TS]

  and just start you know I guess out of usenet in my past where it wasn't it wasn't a big audience as we have here [TS]

  but doesn't take you know only takes like four or five Mean people to put you in your place for a couple years [TS]

  and you know you'll get better. [TS]

  Yeah [TS]

  and again I don't I don't mean to complain necessarily about getting feedback I don't mean to complain about all of the [TS]

  Internet or my head thinking I'm wrong. [TS]

  That actually doesn't bother me what was frustrating was people who really didn't have to be blunt. [TS]

  Anything that constructive to add just coming out of the woodwork and saying you're wrong [TS]

  and you're wrong because I read something once that's just not helpful were something that Mark did which he said OK [TS]

  From personal experience let me take you through why you did. If you're wrong. [TS]

  That is infinitely valuable and extraordinarily valuable I'm very thankful for that. [TS]

  But the other people are expressing their enthusiasm like even if they're there they're doing it in a way that makes [TS]

  you feel bad. [TS]

  They're there saying we listen to the show and B we are enthusiastic enough about it to seek you out on Twitter [TS]

  and send you something. So there are there is even good in that I think. [TS]

  Yeah I agree and that's why even on the e-mails that I want to reach to the computer and back [TS]

  and whoever wrote even on those e-mails I try always to force myself to do an e-mail in such a way that [TS]

  when I write thank you for listening [TS]

  and thanks for your feedback that it's taken is genuine because I do mean it genuinely even if I want to freaking kill [TS]

  whoever I just replied to. [TS]

  So I don't know maybe this is too inside baseball this might be boring maybe we'll cut it I don't know [TS]

  but it's just the point I was trying to get to was that it made me look at myself with a bit of a critical eye which [TS]

  again is even more reason why even the feedback that I'm moaning is actually valuable in its own way [TS]

  and to point out also I actually. [TS]

  So I've been in this high end audio world for a lot recently [TS]

  and I've found that like so the reason why I don't like vinyl [TS]

  and a lot of analysts is all the same reason why I had a chance to to have a tube amp in my house for a couple of weeks [TS]

  to try out and I didn't like it and ended up not buying one. The reason why people like vinyl sound. [TS]

  Not everyone [TS]

  but the reason why the people who do like it like it in addition to all the things you talked about last week about the [TS]

  tea ceremony and the romanticism of it and how hip and awesome it looks and everything a slow an artisanal a manual. [TS]

  In addition to all that crap it does sound different and it sounds different in various ways that people find pleasing. [TS]

  Now as. But you know that wasn't the argument the drums making against. [TS]

  You however that was what most people thought when you know what for they are going about vinyl siding better than CD [TS]

  or whatever. [TS]

  You know in my own purchases and what I found in my experiences with high end audio stuff what I like is neutrality [TS]

  and in most cases. [TS]

  So for instance I don't use a tube amp because I use sensitive headphones [TS]

  and sensitive headphones you can very easily pick up the noise introduced by two bands. [TS]

  You can also occasionally get like a little pop if a piece of dust hits the wrong way [TS]

  or something like that like it's just not it is it's it's almost like like records you know. [TS]

  It's almost like vinyl it's not. [TS]

  You're introducing distortion you're introducing noise so I try to get very very nice digital stuff so everything is [TS]

  solid state there's there's you know no moving parts with a volume knob. [TS]

  There is as little noise introduced as possible [TS]

  and there is a little you know total imbalance introduced as possible and I actually took a little too far. [TS]

  So my my current set up is I have a sunrise or H.D. Eight hundred headphones plugged into the shit. [TS]

  Asghar two that is actually its name and shit by frost DAC and it looks amazing. [TS]

  These things all look fancy and also they sound great. [TS]

  The main reason I like the shit amp and that is because they have like zero noise [TS]

  and I can hear anything that I have that's not because they're the shack and the name helps too [TS]

  and they look pretty awesome and they're they're small and they are reasonably priced [TS]

  and I like to be the super neutral now. The Sennheiser H.D. [TS]

  Eight hundred headphones the best I can say about them is that they are the most neutral headphones ever heard. [TS]

  The downside of this is that they actually sound a little bit boring on certain things like certain types of music. [TS]

  I actually like the distortion by things like amp. [TS]

  Following the high end that you hear and some biodynamic models or [TS]

  or the more the bigger base I have on my clothes headphones the one hundred [TS]

  and certain things I like that distortion now throughout through up all my research [TS]

  and findings haven't actually I tried a few other models I ended up returning or selling in the meantime [TS]

  and I found people's opinions vary dramatically on what they considered sounding good. [TS]

  So one of the most popular lines of Sennheiser H.D. Six hundred six fifty. [TS]

  Those actually have pretty muted high end and I didn't like that sound a lot of people loved it [TS]

  and similarly certain people don't like the biodynamic super strong high end and I like it [TS]

  and what I found is that you know keeping everything neutral up until the point of the actual headphones. [TS]

  Well I mean that choice gives me flexibility like you can simulate all the other so you can simulate vinyl with digital [TS]

  plugins and equalizers and stuff. [TS]

  Please email Dan [TS]

  and you can simulate most of the most of the effects of what people like about these things electronically artificially [TS]

  if you want to just like Instagram. [TS]

  You know can you know can simulate the distortions of certain old processes or things that you know or like idealized [TS]

  or enhanced versions of old processes and old distortions that used to exist in the analog world [TS]

  and that produces more pleasing looking photos just to a lot of people. [TS]

  So it's important to recognize like you know I like I like everything to be digital and pure and clean [TS]

  and neutral up until the point where I have my headphones I can make that choice [TS]

  and say either I want to listen to something with a lot of bass with this pair of headphones [TS]

  or I want to listen to something that's neutral with this pair of headphones [TS]

  and I reckon that's a crazy set up however that's how I am and that's how I did it [TS]

  but you know none of that like the argument John was making last week is that C.D.'s are are better at being neutral [TS]

  they're better accurately and neutrally replicating the recording. [TS]

  And that's that is correct that is one hundred percent right and most people though [TS]

  when they're arguing about what sounds better or worse or what is better [TS]

  or worse they don't put it in those terms of personal preference or of like the difference between neutrality [TS]

  and pleasing sound because that's of those there's a very different things perfectly neutral sounds boring to a lot of [TS]

  people like when I ended our podcast with perfectly neutral. However my Listen to phish a little bit more bass. [TS]

  So [TS]

  when I listen to fish I put on the other headphones you know it's it's very important to distinguish those things personal [TS]

  preference or more pleasing versus accurate and neutral and I think you're right [TS]

  but I don't know this is probably getting a bit old now I want to talk about something that's cool I would love to. [TS]

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  P.D.F. Pen for O S ten using i Cloud or Dropbox is P.D.F. and Is for a left hand and you can grab an SES P.D.F. [TS]

  Using Dropbox Evernote Google Drive box. [TS]

  I guess it isn't called Boston anymore that right they dropped the dot net now it's a box. [TS]

  Anyway you can say P.D.'s to that or from that even web and F.T.P. Servers and anywhere you are with P.D.F. [TS]

  Ten for i Pad You have the complete feature rich mobile editing power of P.D.F. [TS]

  and It's available in the App Store now a lot of talk [TS]

  but there's a lot of apps these days haven't even Iowa seven yet they're not native you know the kind of ignored P.D.F. [TS]

  Pen is. It is always updated. [TS]

  It is native to Iowa seven [TS]

  and there's tons of they're always making tons of improvements performance improvements everything else they're [TS]

  fantastic and it seems like your stuff once again. [TS]

  They even support a few of the pressure sensitive pens on the market. [TS]

  The most popular ones they support the jock touch the Pogo connect and the Jaja [TS]

  or Haha I'm not sure which one is that is but it's J.J. [TS]

  That one which is either Joshua or ha ha or maybe John or Hodge who knows but they support that one. So check out P.D.F. [TS]

  Pen for i Pad going to smile Software dot com slash A.T.P. That is smile Software dot com slash A.T.P. [TS]

  Thanks a lot to P.D.F. Pen for i Pad for sponsoring our show once again. I'll tell you I I use P.D.F. [TS]

  Penitence has I use it more in the math on the i Pad Just so that's where I am most of the time [TS]

  but it's boy it's an amazing piece of software and it saves my butt pretty frequently. So thanks a lot to P.D.F. [TS]

  and For i Pad once again we didn't get a chance to talk about last week because we were too busy arguing didn't get a [TS]

  chance to talk about this trial with Samsung between Samsung and Apple [TS]

  and there's been some interesting things coming out of this [TS]

  and we've gotten to look at some of the behind the scenes at how Apple does stuff how they get their jobs done as a [TS]

  result of a lot of the discovery during the trial so I know John you have any thoughts on this. [TS]

  Yeah I picked out I'm taking on not so much of the tales of the trial [TS]

  or whatever because there's no one how to do it patents through and pay attention but you know I think about patents [TS]

  or whatever but yeah because as part of the discovery process [TS]

  or some other legal term that I don't know really internal documents from Apple [TS]

  and it's great because Apple is what's great for us and I know it's great for Apple. [TS]

  That's all the discussion but we get so little insight into what goes on in Apple. [TS]

  We just see their public face and their public face is so incredibly controlled. [TS]

  And I think it's even more control now than it used to be said many times before and the good old days with Steve Jobs. [TS]

  Yes Apple's message was controlled but Steve Jobs had the ability and often took it to just go off book [TS]

  and do have the hell he wants and say whatever the hell you want [TS]

  and whatever way you want that I'm sure he was you know controlling Calvin as well [TS]

  but you never quite knew what he was going to say. [TS]

  Tim Cook you're not going to make him slip up and say something you're not going to get something exciting [TS]

  and so far it seems like he is very on message and very controlled strategic leaking things [TS]

  and saying this sort of way in choosing his words very carefully. [TS]

  But the Steve Jobs felt like it was a chance he might you know either act like he's just suddenly caught up in the [TS]

  moment and saying something spontaneous or actually do that. [TS]

  But anyway these documents are internal Apple documents [TS]

  and from the outside a lot of people to Apple's arrogant Apple's out of touch they don't know they use really want to [TS]

  whatever [TS]

  but these internal documents make it very very clear that that is not the case that that is merely their external face [TS]

  that they control so well but internally this is the fiscal year twenty fourteen planning offsite slide deck [TS]

  and you can see some of the slides. [TS]

  If you haven't seen them overdoing the Seante to check them out [TS]

  but I'll I'll read off on the sizes of the first slide it says they're talking about i Phone sales [TS]

  and it says growth rates are slowing and they show a graph that shows growth rates going down down down down down. [TS]

  Apple of course would never show a slide like this in public. [TS]

  Why are they going to you know that puts them in a bad light [TS]

  and again something as simple as this showing growth rates long yes you'll see stories about Apple about that [TS]

  and if someone actually gets in touch with Apple Masson by that they'll say some you know blah blah blah kind of well [TS]

  we think we were you know on the right track in mobile or work you know they'll say some stupid P.R. [TS]

  Thing but here they are saying when they're talking to themselves like here's the graph growth rate is really slowing. [TS]

  Next lie they say So what's going on [TS]

  and they have a little section here is as strong as the man is coming from less expensive [TS]

  and larger screen smart phones carriers have strong interest in capping. [TS]

  I Phone due to one or more factors high share the subsidy premium unfriendly policy unfairly using [TS]

  and quote lack of alignment so they're basically saying cut customers want cheap fronts a bigger screens. [TS]

  Carriers carries don't like us that much [TS]

  and they don't like us we're going to reasons because we are more demanding of them because we in these unfriendly [TS]

  policies that we have are subsidies really high a lack of alignment with you know our interests are aligned with the [TS]

  carriers you know that they're really laying out the carriers don't like us that much [TS]

  and competitors nature little Android competitors have drastically improved their hardware and software software [TS]

  and their ecosystems and the spending obscene also in scare quotes amounts of money on advertising [TS]

  and carrier channel to gain traction which is a Samsung things laying out like here here her problems we're going to [TS]

  get there but it could mean there is you know people want and this is a tile the site is great. [TS]

  Next what consumers want what we don't have getting right now is Apple saying that in public what we don't have [TS]

  and so they show like the market share growth they said where did the growth come from [TS]

  and this I know I wish there was a better breakdown of maybe there was the same way to the growth in the industry come [TS]

  from shows the growth in IT SAYS I don't can't do the percentages here [TS]

  but more than half the growth came from phones there are less than three hundred dollars [TS]

  and the rest of the growth came from screens that are more than three hundred dollars [TS]

  but have screens that are bigger than four inches. [TS]

  The real objection I have to this graph is OK great you identified that that the majority of the growth is coming from [TS]

  phones that are less than three hundred dollars. [TS]

  I think break that down more because if you take that piece [TS]

  and say OK well out of that growth actually ninety nine percent of that growth is coming from phones there are less [TS]

  than five dollars that is way different than saying OK well most of this coming from how much less than three hundred [TS]

  dollars break it down is it as if you know what the average house what the distribution in there without knowing that [TS]

  you don't know what to do. [TS]

  But anyway this is the high level slide so I take him they have broken it down in turn [TS]

  and I just again I would like to see that broken down. [TS]

  Didn't And all this reminded me of a book I'm reading now which I recommend everybody will point in the show notes. [TS]

  It's a cat most book called creativity Inc It's not really a memoir manifesto it's more just an exploration of the [TS]

  early history of Pixar and what Catmull and the rest of the company has done to to make that organization function [TS]

  and be successful. [TS]

  And a big focus on the book is being clear eyed about your own problems and candid about them internally [TS]

  and I don't think so it's not Apple I don't know if the jobs didn't have nearly as much involvement in Pixar as it is [TS]

  an apple. [TS]

  But I can't help [TS]

  but see parallels between you know the things that are in this book in the approach Apple is taking here. [TS]

  Apple is very clear eyed in the slides they are not sugar coating it better not like Rob Rob like yeah we may have [TS]

  problems that we still have the best known is in his office the slides are just you know there's not a lot of them [TS]

  but they're essentially unrelentingly negative towards Apple and you know that's how they have to be that's [TS]

  and that's how Apple improves so I felt better about seeing these lives [TS]

  and it made me think that at least some of the culture [TS]

  and strategies described in that excellent book way Catmull are alive and well Apple's Well yeah I think it is. [TS]

  It's fantastic to see that Apple knows its own problems it knows its own shortcomings [TS]

  but I think that's not really that much news necessarily. [TS]

  To me seeing all these like I see all these trial documents and like the e-mail of Phil Schiller [TS]

  and everything it really just says to me that this company is you know by being as private as they usually are they are [TS]

  saving us from the boredom. And there can be the relative routine in this that's actually in their company. [TS]

  This is these are like the only big surprise here is these people are actually acting somewhat human [TS]

  but they're all you know they're saying not that surprising things. [TS]

  There something boring business emails for their advertising agency that doesn't even capitalize anything which is [TS]

  apparently a thing [TS]

  or help out with that with all other things like that that fell short like this article was supposed to be sensational [TS]

  or whatever [TS]

  and so one of the things they show over the email where Phil show is being angry too is that initially what I took away [TS]

  from that exchange was how incredibly low the bar is [TS]

  and see like it's like this is your I didn't see you you're the biggest country in the world [TS]

  and these jokers are doing your ads. Boy that's just the pressing I got. [TS]

  Not everything can be up to the standard of Avalon Pixar I guess [TS]

  and that's just yeah yeah I mean what I what I really just found that these with these documents is like wow this is [TS]

  all really boring stuff that I like like because very little of newsworthiness here except that you know Apple usually [TS]

  does a really good job of keeping what comes out. [TS]

  Interesting you know keeping their public image interesting and secretive and and well edited [TS]

  and you see you see now on the inside that yeah it's it's a big company dealing with big company problems [TS]

  and doing things the big companies do. [TS]

  And my not seeing the novelty of it I compare it to I mean I work for a lot different companies [TS]

  but the one people may have heard of that for for a time I work for Palm [TS]

  and I didn't I wasn't very close to the leadership of the organization but internal to the company [TS]

  when I worked for Palm I got presentations from you know some of the big leagues came to visit us because we're in a [TS]

  different location and gave us a presentation on the state of Palm and what their plans were for the business [TS]

  and their slides were not candid and didn't accurately identify the problem they're facing. [TS]

  They were much more kind of like we're actually still doing pretty good in the P.T.A. [TS]

  Space and the phones are coming on but we've got these trio things [TS]

  and like it was like even to me inside the company I'm like you guys are in denial of these That's why we're showing [TS]

  this internally. [TS]

  We're showing these lies to ourselves internally we're not being honest with ourselves about the state I mean you would [TS]

  hope that they would you know we saw it and we felt that maybe they held it. [TS]

  Just didn't feel as honest and straight forward and like if you if you don't think these Apple slides are novel [TS]

  or interesting like I don't have that much experience in big tech companies but I have seen it from big and small. [TS]

  Most companies are not this candid about themselves [TS]

  and are not are not this accurate like you know are not able to exactly pinpoint where their weak points are [TS]

  and nail them in that way and I guess that shows you know competence internally and skill [TS]

  and if they weren't that skill they wouldn't be where they are today so I think there is something to it it's not we [TS]

  can just accept that every company does this because I think many of them don't. [TS]

  The other thing that we didn't talk about last week which we could have is some guy that apparently I was supposed to [TS]

  know but didn't know. [TS]

  He's leaving Apple and that guy is Greg Christie [TS]

  and did either of you two heard of him before I'm assuming John that you had but [TS]

  but Marco Have you heard of this gentleman before last week. No I still don't even believe this is really a story. [TS]

  Well there was there were stories about him. [TS]

  He was featured in recent stories before the he was leaving Apple story so even if you weren't aware of him before that [TS]

  you want to send Duncan a name before it's like yes like two weeks ago. [TS]

  You did see that name when it was I think someone did a story about the early days of the i Phone and he was heavily. [TS]

  Yeah. [TS]

  So that's why you might be aware from the other's looks a lot like kind of a gossip story like people arguing inside [TS]

  Apple and then one of them leaves I mean that happens all the time in every company [TS]

  and then you know from some people have we don't know what's really going on here [TS]

  but there's at least one reasonable design denial from this map [TS]

  and you know the details of this big breakup are not as dramatic as they seem [TS]

  but the reason I think it's interesting is forget about how we left our wire after whatever. Like who cares right. [TS]

  The what it highlights what all the stories highlighted is it's time for them to talk about kind of oh Johnny Ives [TS]

  organization because he is in charge of much more than he used to be in charge of anything that happens in that [TS]

  organization people coming people going or whatever. With him remaining the top. [TS]

  In some ways like not that it reflects on him [TS]

  but it makes us focus on him so what the story's made me do is think more about how Johnny I was doing in this position. [TS]

  And yes part of his vision is retention or whatever but not so much in this particular thing [TS]

  but what got me thinking about was what what our Johnny Ives weaknesses in his new role as a software designer I've had [TS]

  you know decades to think about was weaknesses are in hardware design [TS]

  and previously was unknown what is be like in software [TS]

  but his organization I guess you know i OS seven is the first big product of his software organization [TS]

  and we've all had a long time to live with it and I think his weakness is a software designer are more glaring [TS]

  and obvious than they are Harbor may be and in fact they're very similar [TS]

  and so any time anything happens within the organization it makes me sort of like dwell more on how he's doing in his [TS]

  new role as a software designer. And I think that's a useful avenue of thought for me. [TS]

  So you're not pleased with how things are going then with Johnny film. [TS]

  Well like when somebody leaves like that even if it's on good terms bedtimes [TS]

  or whatever like you have to think that it's not I've been sleeping right people under him are going to leave it there [TS]

  and you have to think like maybe there was someone who used to be more in charge than they are now right. [TS]

  He used it like he was largely responsible for a lot of the early I thought I knew why [TS]

  and surely his power to make changes in decisions has decreased now the Johny I have has come in above him [TS]

  and you know to me like that's the whole thing with Johnny Ive is given has been given much more power [TS]

  and that means the power of the people he used to have the power of had it taken away. [TS]

  And if there's any sort of disagreement about what to do John as you know when as he should because he's in charge [TS]

  and what that means is that whatever his strengths [TS]

  and weaknesses are are imprinted even more strongly on the organization because he is not just one voice anymore he is [TS]

  the voice either as I think it will do one point he's in the full. [TS]

  Sugar I'm your moto mode where Memoto designed in ten flagship games like Omarion Donkey Kong and many other things [TS]

  and slowly climbed the ranks of the organization until essentially he was the buck stop with him for all issues related [TS]

  to software design and all of Nintendo and possibly several aspects of hardware design as well. [TS]

  Like once you are in that position of power whatever your strengths [TS]

  or weaknesses are are magnified I mean it was true with Steve Jobs his strengths [TS]

  and weaknesses were magnified through the whole organization [TS]

  and so now I that's why I'm going on what I was like a software designer because these other voices weren't whether you [TS]

  agree with them or not Scott across all Greg Christie all the other people their voices [TS]

  and their ability to you know affect change within the organization are necessarily modified by the larger [TS]

  and larger footprint of this one fallible individual. For better or for worse and so that's what I've got mine. [TS]

  Yeah that's interesting I mean I you know the problem is I I think you're right that that is something to watch [TS]

  but I think everything we've ever been we've heard about this about great Christie's particular departure makes it [TS]

  sound like maybe you know maybe the problem had nothing to do with Johnny Ive And you know like we see like the the [TS]

  crazy rumor site saying you know there was some kind of friction there [TS]

  and then you see people like John Gruber who have generally better sources on these kind of things saying oh this is [TS]

  actually you know in the works for months and he didn't even it wasn't even recent [TS]

  and there was no bad blood he just was retiring and as the story gets older we're hearing more that it's not a story. [TS]

  Then the very minute that it broke in the news that said it was a story. [TS]

  So that's probably the reality it probably isn't a story itself now. [TS]

  Again you're right that this I mean you know Johnnie I've having a lot more power than he used to [TS]

  and becoming so powerful that he's able to get bad decisions through that is something to watch. [TS]

  No question and I always say. [TS]

  Evan is a great example of some of those things you know I think Iowa seven really showed that. [TS]

  Johnny I was wanting to make a big a big change in a lot of very important stuff on I.I.S. [TS]

  and He did and he went a little too far in a lot of those changes. [TS]

  But even you know as we saw last summer even from Beta one to what was released at seven point zero There were a lot of [TS]

  changes to rein some of that back like that the biggest one being the super thin font was replaced with a more [TS]

  reasonably thick that missed one more reasonably waited. [TS]

  You know things like that if they were in the lock screen having modifications to make it easier to realize that you [TS]

  have to swipe right and not up things like that you know there were a lot of. [TS]

  Or is it left out of the way there were a lot of changes made. [TS]

  You know he went too far and he dialed back [TS]

  and I think I was seven is great I think the design of it is great it is not perfect but it is great [TS]

  and it is a massive improvement over six so and this is going to you know what we want from I was and I guess [TS]

  but I don't know if we even have that as a topic. [TS]

  But I think this is going to watch for you know watch for Johnny Ive getting enough power that he can get bad decisions [TS]

  pushed through. And for him to think that these decisions are good you know those things are a problem together. [TS]

  But other than that I don't really think this is much of a story like on this bigger story doesn't like I was going at [TS]

  it doesn't matter how [TS]

  or why Christie left it only matters that he was somebody who was there for a long time who was responsible for a lot [TS]

  of like it was senior person. Right. [TS]

  He wasn't just some other president he was another voice whether he agreed with Johnny Ive [TS]

  or not at any point if if you were like the last the last the you know Godzilla standing like all the other big guys [TS]

  have left all the other people who were there from the beginning who strongly influenced the original i Phone You know [TS]

  I mean like that's what I say about like. [TS]

  Your army a mode of life you need to have those voices that you that you will listen to because you believe like that [TS]

  they are valuable and have experience [TS]

  and even if you just left because you just like retiring right that's that's a loss. [TS]

  That's that somebody that you don't have any organization with a wealth of experience for you to bounce your ideas off [TS]

  of and you know I mean like I go back to be accountable to them [TS]

  but they have a whole chapter on the brain trust which I will put a link to this because I think that an excerpt on [TS]

  some website somewhere where they will get the people the sort of the oldest and wisest people together in a room [TS]

  and have them all tell each other what's wrong with their with their projects. [TS]

  Just about ideas are to be will respect each other and they all have a lot of experience [TS]

  and any time a senior person leaves in you know in the similar role like the senior software designer for Iowa in the [TS]

  past that is a loss for the company and that's why I like it doesn't matter who cares why he left. [TS]

  He's not there anymore and that will only serve to magnify the good [TS]

  and the bad about I've And I would rather see him surrounded by say more senior people that he respected too. [TS]

  You know that's a temper his output [TS]

  but perhaps even to enhance the parts that are good about it I have to disagree with him maybe they should more [TS]

  vehemently agree with him in certain areas where he's touting himself like that dynamic is what I what I think is lost [TS]

  when you see your people leave you know the other thing that I'm a little concerned about just based completely on [TS]

  theory is Johnny getting spread a little thin and I would hope that he has his trusted minion slash you know Cers [TS]

  or whatever to to take a lot of the day to day off of his plate. [TS]

  But based on no facts and just a bunch of assumptions it seems to me that Johnny is a fairly hands on guy [TS]

  and if he's a hands on guy and then presumably already had a full plate with hardware alone I just can't imagine. [TS]

  And now adding all of us. [TS]

  Where on to that already overflowing plate [TS]

  and still being able to be good at your job go to not only your existing job of hardware [TS]

  but also good at this new job of software which really in the strictest sense he doesn't have any real experience [TS]

  or education in so that kind of concerns me a bit that he'll be spread too thin over over the next few years. [TS]

  Well that's I think that distinction if you were to ask Johnny I'm going to play Jai I've now because I wrote a book [TS]

  about him once we had on the part of guess what he would say is this distinction between hardware [TS]

  and software is an artificial one that has no bearing on the experience of using the product it's all one part of the [TS]

  same product and it makes perfect sense for them to be under the same umbrella because that that separation [TS]

  and that sort of arguing between them I guess there is a tension technically [TS]

  but that doesn't matter to the end product that has to be one thing. [TS]

  I think it's perfectly valid to have that that approach the holistic approach of the product Apple has always had it is [TS]

  just a now it's literally embodied within one person. [TS]

  Yes is a danger of that and that maybe there was healthy tension between hardware and software [TS]

  but I don't worry about him being spread too thin because I think he is fulfilling sort of the Steve Jobs type role of [TS]

  set the direction be tastemaker give thumbs up thumbs down he's not in there draw new eyes in [TS]

  and you know one of the time or whatever. [TS]

  Well you know I mean he's got a staff of the people who do that but in the end the buck stops with him [TS]

  and if he really wanted to be a super skinny font on a white background that's what it's going to be [TS]

  and like Margo said it's not you know if you have to dial a back line in many ways it's better to go to go to big [TS]

  and then scale it back then to be too timid you know I mean so I'm not giving in like a bad grade [TS]

  or anything I'm just I'm just watching it because I would rather see ideas have to fight for their life as hard as [TS]

  possible and find out all [TS]

  and only the best ones make it out then to sort of slide towards a situation where there is not enough. [TS]

  There's not there's not enough people with skills even close to Johnny I have for him too. [TS]

  Do good work in the software ie like an harbour. I don't know what's going on back there we don't know those people. [TS]

  Well I think he has trusted team that doesn't have a lot of turnover [TS]

  but the software is often lost Scott forestall went through what we think actually was a disagreement [TS]

  and great Christy is now gone like I would I would be happier both those people were still there [TS]

  and working in concert with Johnny Ah but you know what I do. [TS]

  Well you know maybe the harder stuff will be a lot less work now because that you can just look at like what H.P. [TS]

  and Samsung are making into just disciplines like that right. I think if the opposite doesn't work either way. [TS]

  You know the other thing that I should point out and I am not through listening to it yet but on Guy Englishes [TS]

  and Rene Ritchie is really great pod cast debug on Episode thirty three will put a link to that in the show notes they [TS]

  had Ken Ferrie on who did apparently was kind of the primary guy behind on a layout [TS]

  and I'm only about two thirds of the way through the episode but it's really really good. [TS]

  And one of the things that Ken talks about is kind of what it's like to get an idea through Apple. [TS]

  You know so he I don't I didn't hear the all the lay out specific part yet [TS]

  but just for the sake of argument you know I go in there. [TS]

  I come up with the idea for auto layout and apparently he basically only has to convince his immediate supervisor. [TS]

  Or at least that's what I gleaned from it [TS]

  and I just thought that was really really interesting that it's not very bureaucratic It's not that you have to [TS]

  convince three thousand people all the way up the chain and I'm sure that that's that is the case sometimes [TS]

  but generally for for some things you can just convince one man or woman [TS]

  and that's all it takes I just thought that was fascinating. [TS]

  We're also sponsored this week once again by a new relatively new relatives [TS]

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  Code new road assets take a minute [TS]

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  They would like to send a shout out to developers software geeks code jockeys to the brave few who see things [TS]

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  A.T.P. Thanks a lot. So one quick remaining thought on the Christie thing which I came up with. [TS]

  We said Christie had been there since the beginning. [TS]

  But let's suppose hypothetically that he was pretty well lined [TS]

  or pretty chummy with forestall then wouldn't it make sense for him to either choose to leave or be asked to leave. [TS]

  And and. [TS]

  Those quiet rumblings I've heard are that that's exactly the case that he was kind of an forestalls camp [TS]

  and maybe the person who is replacing him is someone who likes to argue a little bit more. [TS]

  If that's the case I'd consider that a wonderful thing. [TS]

  I think it's very smart of people who are in a position of power to have someone around them that argues because it [TS]

  forces you to really be really vehemently believe in your own opinion [TS]

  or change it if the case maybe the best example of that from the Steve Jobs history is the you know being adamant that [TS]

  i Tunes was it wasn't it was the i Pod should be available for one night in storage and give over windows [TS]

  when you're going to help me out is not remembering that anyway. [TS]

  Yeah I'd consider Windows a chat room set so I'll trust them [TS]

  but anyway whatever it was it's something that eventually came to pass and was enormously positive thing [TS]

  and Steve Jobs was dead set against it [TS]

  and it was just all of his most trusted the tenets were constantly on him arguments they could not give it up like [TS]

  we've got to do I don't know I'm never going to do it in any event they warm down it like fine do friggin i Tunes [TS]

  or windows whatever you want like that sounds like an unhealthy dynamic [TS]

  but I think that is that is actually a company I mean it's not it's not the healthiest It could be better if again it [TS]

  was something more like the Pixar brain trust. [TS]

  But in many ways it was similar because like the brain trust thing it's a bunch of senior people. [TS]

  You know I'll tell you what's wrong with you thing. But none of them have the power to tell you what you have to do. [TS]

  Like they can make you change your movie in the case of the very latest tell you like we think this is wrong that's [TS]

  wrong maybe just Lucian's but they have no authority to make you do any particular changes [TS]

  and in the case of Steve Jobs it was and it didn't have the authority to make him put i Tunes on Windows [TS]

  but because he respected their opinions [TS]

  and because they were so insistent on eventually you know he went against his own better judgment [TS]

  and said you know what am I even paying these people. [TS]

  For if not to advise me and they are so strong [TS]

  and unanimous in their in their you know insistence of this is a good idea. [TS]

  He was kind of a baby about it that find whatever stupid thing on Windows if accounts are to be believed [TS]

  and that that might sound like him but in the end you know this is the worked. [TS]

  Yeah and that's exactly my point and so I mean whether [TS]

  or not Christie was forced out depending on who is replacing him it could be a really wonderful thing. [TS]

  So was like All right so we have a few other things that we can talk about [TS]

  and something that we've had on the show notes for a while that I don't think I completely understand yet [TS]

  and I'd love to hear Jon you explain it to me is what is this P selfing all about good you know I get to explain other [TS]

  thing that I don't know the details of but I do think I know enough. [TS]

  I do know enough I think to do explain that you know the broad strokes in the broad strokes are actually interesting. [TS]

  So P. [TS]

  Sellers from the parliament is the same I think inventor of one of one of the original inventors of quick time he also [TS]

  did the On Live for mode gaming service and is another one of his babies [TS]

  and he has a little bit of reputation as kind of a genius crackpot sort of like Stephen Wolfram undeniably incredibly [TS]

  smart and doing amazing things [TS]

  but also prone to like presenting his creations as the best thing since sliced bread in kind of magic [TS]

  and that's a difficult piece L. [TS]

  As I think of the original name for a cause [TS]

  but it's been rebranded to be so it's presented in a way that doesn't that doesn't explain how it works unless you [TS]

  already know the Orcs [TS]

  and so it seems like magic it's like you have all these problems with cell phone reception because there are so many [TS]

  people with cell phones and so many towers [TS]

  and so much interference this week signals a strong field you can have the cell towers too close to like he's basically [TS]

  describing what we all know about current So for reserve he's like one of that could all go away [TS]

  and you wouldn't have any problem in every single cell phone user would have the full bandwidth of the entire tower. [TS]

  And like possible are you talking about. [TS]

  It sounds like a parental motion machine [TS]

  and you're trying to dismiss him out of hand unless you already know what it is in which case you think oh I know what [TS]

  that is and then it becomes boring [TS]

  and those are the two extremes like this sounds like magic I'm going to be like the only person on earth that's like as [TS]

  if I have a whole cell tower to myself and then you find that really works if you haven't [TS]

  and if you are in this field it's not anything novel or or amazing [TS]

  or new with certain aspects of it that are that are interesting from an engineering perspective [TS]

  and you're like oh it's that OK well now now I think I'm less excited about now that was my experience as well. [TS]

  So here's what it is what do you see in the demonstrations were you talking about as having cell towers [TS]

  and you can't put them too close together because they make indifference to each other [TS]

  and of course every single cell phone is trying to communicate with self our cell tower is interfering with the other [TS]

  cell phones that are communicating with a cell tower in as many different strategies that we use to allow multiple cell [TS]

  phones to talk to the tower and you don't need to know the details of all of them [TS]

  but like you know like you know let us all take turns. [TS]

  There's different ways of multiplexing our signals with frequency division where we charge up into different channels [TS]

  on different frequencies our code division multiplexing where we send the signal that each thing can decode to figure [TS]

  out which part of the signal is relevant to it. [TS]

  But it all has to do with just a big shared space and all those techniques interferences badly screws up the signal. [TS]

  Each thing is sending out a receiving one piece Ellis trying to do is make it so that all the cell towers are aware of [TS]

  where all the cell phones are and they're where what signal is being put out by all the phones [TS]

  and all the other towers [TS]

  and they do a whole bunch of really complicated math to figure out OK We know what we want to send everybody here we're [TS]

  going to output something such that our interference overlaps with each other in such a way that it sort of forms the [TS]

  hotspot right in the target area where all the combination of the interference from all the signals we're putting out. [TS]

  I'm up to exactly what we want to send to that phone [TS]

  and then all the interference from all the sales we're putting out something that's missing in our approach to the [TS]

  other phone that's why it's like you get all you get all the bandwidth because it's a bunch of things working in [TS]

  concert to figure out exactly what they need to send out so that the sum of all their crazy interference exactly equals [TS]

  this the exact clean signal they want to send to that particular phone I'm massively simplifying it obviously [TS]

  but this is this is sort of the upshot of how it works [TS]

  and the innovative thing they have is like well how do you do that how can you have all the cell towers figuring out [TS]

  exactly what they need to put out sort of in real time you know all the signals that are being sent [TS]

  and received to figure out what they have to put out to make the interference overlap to hit every single little cell [TS]

  phone that sounds crazy how could you do that well that's part of the engineering breakthrough in that they claim to [TS]

  have a way to do that with like fiber optic cables or whatever running through his cell towers [TS]

  or slower links if you're willing to allow for a little more slop in the system [TS]

  and to be able to have a computing in each one of those locations that scales linearly which is a topic on top of the [TS]

  negatives on scaling the scale linearly. [TS]

  So it's like well OK so it's easy to do for two receivers [TS]

  but is it ten times as much before it is like how does it scale cycle we have a way if you want to handle fifty people [TS]

  on a tower then you need one computer if you want to have one hundred people you need two computers you know two [TS]

  hundred eighty four computers. [TS]

  Like it's scale linearly with the number of people [TS]

  and that is an interesting engineering breakthrough assuming it works as advertised. [TS]

  But there are limitations [TS]

  and certain First of all you do have to have all the time I was talking to a significant without doubt [TS]

  but you do need fast connections between the towers [TS]

  and if you make slower connection in Towers what you're giving up is essentially how fast the receivers can move. [TS]

  So for example if you were in a car [TS]

  and that car goes over something like seventy miles an hour by the time all the cell towers figure out how to [TS]

  constructively overlay all their crazy overlapping signals to hit where you are you've moved too far [TS]

  and it won't work as well so there are speed limitations of this which are not you know there is. [TS]

  He limitations that you moving around a cookie affects everything but affects the system more than others. [TS]

  So you know if you're in any sort of car trying to you know use your nav system whatever and this is the Most News. [TS]

  If you're going over seventy maybe you wouldn't be able to keep up with you if you only had microwave links between the [TS]

  towers and everything but the idea and even I think Apple's routers [TS]

  and you know regular just walk around to the so called being forming or whatever the idea is an interesting one [TS]

  and it's great when an idea that was you know worked in labs for years [TS]

  and years suddenly becomes feasible in the real world do you know engineering expertise which is essentially what [TS]

  they're trying to bring as a company to this [TS]

  and the theoretical benefits are there in that if you could get a system like this you can make a much more effective [TS]

  use of bandwidth and you can put cell you know small cell tower type meters receivers everywhere [TS]

  and don't worry about how they overlap because it'll be just fine that would you know that would make they would make [TS]

  for the ability to support more users in a congested you know urban environment [TS]

  and the other trick we have from engineering perspective is they didn't want to change all our phones so they found a [TS]

  way using the existing features of like L.T.E. Four G. [TS]

  That are in the existing protocol so such that an unmodified plain old i Phone five S. [TS]

  or Any other plain old cell phone can participate in this like they don't need to have a special chip in the phones [TS]

  or special computing in the phones or whatever [TS]

  and that again is another engineering type of breakthrough where yeah this was fine in theory [TS]

  but you can just go replace all the cell phones in the world these magic ones that work like what we found a way to get [TS]

  this to work using existing protocols with existing unmodified phones with all the smarts on the other end. [TS]

  So I think it is an interesting engineering achievement assuming it works as advertised. [TS]

  He still faces go to market challenges in terms of getting this technology into all the cell towers [TS]

  and was going to be the first person to roll it out and how will it co-exist with other things [TS]

  but in the end it is not magic it's just science it's not particularly new science [TS]

  but the engineering is where the interesting parts are there was a really neat video that I watched that showed I [TS]

  believe it was a bunch of like. Laptops or tablets or whatever that work quipped with L.T.E. [TS]

  Radios and they'd shown probably get the details wrong but they had shown what happens when you move around [TS]

  and they turned off the thing where it senses where you are. So basically they concentrated this beam of L.T.E. [TS]

  In a specific spot [TS]

  and just for the purposes of the demonstration rather than allow that beam to move around with the device. [TS]

  If they kept it stationary [TS]

  and you could see as they moved just a couple of inches that the throughput would just plummet [TS]

  and then they would put the device backwards started and it would come back to like full each D.V.D. [TS]

  or Something like that and then [TS]

  when they had it working as it's designed which is to say you will follow the device as it moves. [TS]

  You would get this full H.D. [TS]

  Signal as the dudes like you know just moving these devices around in the room with a reasonable quickness not seventy [TS]

  miles an hour but a reason and it was fascinating to watch [TS]

  and really really impressive in some ways it's like engineering at its best because what engineers do very well as [TS]

  opposed to you know scientists like this there are you know two sides of the same color as the scientists will come up [TS]

  with something already theories or whatever [TS]

  but it's the job of the engineers to be able to figure out you know what that theory was useless to us ten years ago [TS]

  twenty years ago fifty years ago. [TS]

  But computing has advanced so much or technology or material science [TS]

  or whatever has a bit so much that crazy theory that no one ever paid attention to you know that you know if I Well [TS]

  that's not feasible obviously you can never do that starts to enter the realities ability [TS]

  and mirrors are rewarded by getting the jump on error [TS]

  and say you know what I think I can do that now I think I can do that crazy beamforming thing you know across huge [TS]

  urban areas to people traveling up to seventy miles an hour with a girl who's I think I can do that now likely to get [TS]

  there first right. [TS]

  I mean the mentally when technology comes along [TS]

  and it's like well now we have you know every More realize we have the computing to do you know an algorithm that [TS]

  wasn't feasible before compression. [TS]

  Technique that used to be too computationally expensive but now is trivial on phones right. [TS]

  Like and this is an example of that like he seems to be out ahead of people in terms of I think I can do that now [TS]

  and here is my proof and here's my implementation. [TS]

  And whether [TS]

  or not a fly is kind of like on my bike I think I can make people have video games where the video gaming machine is in [TS]

  a data center and there are miles and miles away. I think gaming can work like that. [TS]

  It did kind of work I have on live I've watched it I've played it it's not great [TS]

  but it's as a technology pro concept it's interesting [TS]

  but there are you know as an elf The engineer is only one small part of the battle of being successful in the market [TS]

  but as as non-magical as it might be I do like what he does because it kind of like Elon Musk he's he's figuring out [TS]

  what is feasible with current technology and getting there just slightly ahead of everyone else [TS]

  and that's that's great engineering. [TS]

  Yeah like I said it was really impressive to me whether [TS]

  or not it's just the combination of a bunch of things we've known how to do for a while it looked really cool. [TS]

  That's all Apple does too right. [TS]

  They take things you know we've had touch screens with a capacitor does screens that you know user interfaces of [TS]

  buttons like you know bring it all together figure out that actually we can make a phone like that now [TS]

  and do it just a little bit ahead of everyone else. There's a big reward if you get all the parts right. Exactly. [TS]

  We're also sponsored this week by a glue software igloo is an Internet. [TS]

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  Learn more in a glue software not com slash Casey over Software dot com slash K.C. [TS]

  Where they made a funny winning page about why Share Point sucks and how iglu is better. [TS]

  Thanks a lot once again to a Lou for sponsoring our show I wanted to ask about scaling servers because we've had this [TS]

  on the show in the show notes for a while. Yeah I love this. [TS]

  So on the topic list there's just a simple bullet point it just says scaling servers like you might as well had a [TS]

  bullet point said computers. [TS]

  I wrote it there [TS]

  and it was actually a reaction to a particular blog post that Brent Simmons put up very mention scaling and passing [TS]

  and it's not I don't get into a big thing about it is just like every every time I see this come up [TS]

  and we do it ourselves. [TS]

  People are sloppy with their analogy like it's so important to keep reminding yourself like you know definition of [TS]

  terms like what what we should be talking about [TS]

  when we talk about scaling as we use it as an umbrella term to talk about everything [TS]

  and I kind of alluded to it in the piece L. [TS]

  Thing with like my only point is like the old saw about the difference in performance [TS]

  and scaling so much of the time when I see people thinking they're blogging about scale. [TS]

  All their blogging about US performance which is fine interesting a topic of itself sending us scaling [TS]

  and so I just you know I put it in there as a reminder myself to throw it out So in brief performance how fast you can [TS]

  make something go if you've got a computer [TS]

  and you've got a test to be done I can do a task in five minutes I need to increase my performance now I can do the [TS]

  task in three seconds. You've increase your performance. Scaling is I've got one task to do and I've got one computer. [TS]

  What if I give you ten million of those tests to do. [TS]

  Can you do them in the same time if you just use ten million computers. [TS]

  That's scaling it doesn't matter how long it takes even takes your computer a year to solve the problem. [TS]

  If I give you two of those problems you say no problem or just buy another computer I can do both of them in a year. [TS]

  OK One of the three by three computers as a linear scaling by three computers I can do all three in a year [TS]

  but if I give you three million three million computers I can do all three million of those problems in a year it's not [TS]

  about performance scaling in performance although they so often seem related are not the same concept. [TS]

  The failure to focus on scaling when you talk about scaling and performance [TS]

  when talking about performance leads to all sorts of sadness. [TS]

  Oh yeah I mean scaling is is not how fast your system is [TS]

  but how easily you can make it take on more of something usually more traffic more users more data whatever the case [TS]

  may be. [TS]

  How easy is it to take on more and how many changes do you have to make to your software into it to its architecture. [TS]

  Two to add that capacity because you know it's with almost everything it is not nearly as simple as I'll just add more [TS]

  servers because you might have like all right well let's say you can add more web service pretty easily have to a point [TS]

  because web servers like you know you can distribute the calls to any of them with a little bounce [TS]

  or as long as you don't use like weird shared sessions [TS]

  or anything you can attribute calls to any of them there are in any call coming in gets assigned to a web server sixty [TS]

  seven and was web server sixty seven does whatever need to do a response back. OK great. [TS]

  However web server sixty seven probably has a. [TS]

  Access a database to do something and how do you organize the databases [TS]

  and that's usually it's the data layer not the web serving application layer that's usually the hardest to scale [TS]

  because that's when you have things like globally shared storage you have things like limits on disk performance [TS]

  and on on how many how many rights can a single server even write per second if you're you know if you if you scale the [TS]

  way all the reads and and given reads to all these like you know replicating servers How do you know that's fine [TS]

  but can they even keep up with the rights how many rights as a master do [TS]

  and then if you split the roll up like that into really hard issues like All right well how do you cache data. [TS]

  Can you be sure that the data that you have read off of the read sleeve is up to date. [TS]

  Otherwise you can't really cash it because you might be clobbering something in a cache that is newer [TS]

  or you might be caching old data when new data is available. [TS]

  All these like really hard problems to go along with that that makes scaling such a complex interesting topic and [TS]

  and and why why it's such a hard problem and that's why [TS]

  when I see a blog post about like how to make a data structure smaller aquarium more efficient [TS]

  and then the word scaling is the same conversation it's like a performance you're just talking about performance like [TS]

  you know if you talk about the Web here like sense that you know it's stateless because scale the horizontal forever [TS]

  like nothing's scale even the web here. [TS]

  Even the web here is not like that one to once again allow you to my example if you ever get there you have reached the [TS]

  Golden Rule you know that you will be busily in there even just getting there even on the web here it's like well bored [TS]

  by different data sets and geographical load balancing [TS]

  and what about never a connection like the nothing nothing skill perfectly [TS]

  but you're right like you know the first thing you do you run into it as a state [TS]

  and you get in the cap the Arum of you know consistency partition tolerance [TS]

  and availability like this is well trod territory lots of people constrain [TS]

  and scaling Google knows probably the most about it of any company the entire world given this guy. [TS]

  While they operate at Microsoft seems to be learning a lot about Apple not sure with like scaling a super hard [TS]

  performance performance a super hard and I mean from the outside. [TS]

  This is all like sort of Soteris stuff but even for people who are just working on a small system [TS]

  and like it doesn't matter you're not going to have you know going to have Facebook level users right. [TS]

  But even on a very small system ten users one hundred users one thousand two hundred thousand even then you should be [TS]

  thinking about both performance and scaling and keeping a clear head about which one you're concentrating on [TS]

  and don't concentrate too much on scaling and not enough on performance [TS]

  or too much improvement on a scaling just keeping a clear head about what the individual tasks are [TS]

  and you will eventually find yourself even in a small system. [TS]

  Reading all those papers about the theory behind it [TS]

  and making your tradeoffs about you know consistency veil building a partition tyrants like you what you have to make [TS]

  decisions about if you don't make decisions the software you choose will make the decisions for you [TS]

  and you'll be sad about it so like that's all part of learning process [TS]

  but it's not all I I don't want to pick on a particular blog post I love reading those Brent Bozell love watching him [TS]

  think a lot about what he's doing [TS]

  and he's a great example of a great software developer like sort of you know showing his showing his work as he works [TS]

  towards a product and everything like that is just that. [TS]

  I have since I've dealt with server side software my entire career I have a particular. [TS]

  It's when I see the word scaling and that's not really talking about scaling I may be understating P. [TS]

  Dense right Casey. That's right that's right. [TS]

  Well [TS]

  and there is there is something to be said for performance optimization to a point you know it's it's very similar to [TS]

  the premature optimization wisdom in the world except and Brent even addresses [TS]

  and in one of his posts on an essential dot com which we should mention he even dressed like you know what you talking [TS]

  about. Server side design like for client side stuff. Premature Optimization is is considered a bad thing because. [TS]

  We have such fast hardware we have so much memory these days on client side devices and desktops [TS]

  and everything we have so much we have so many resources that it's just it's just not really worth doing super Mycroft [TS]

  imitations everywhere. However on servers things are different on servers. [TS]

  You are paying for what you use basically [TS]

  and if you're apt get popular at all even for a for a minimal amount of that of users relatively speaking to like [TS]

  something like Facebook like you know if you get one hundred thousand users using a web service that's going to that's [TS]

  a substantial need for the hardware [TS]

  and depending on what your service is doing that actually could need some serious resources [TS]

  and so that you know you could be you could be talking the difference between hundreds of up a hundred dollars a month [TS]

  or thousands of dollars a month worth of hardware or even more than that. [TS]

  And and so you know if you really make or break your whole economics it can it can make you busier [TS]

  or not is very like one of the best things to happen first for servers [TS]

  and scaling in the last decade has been S S D S because for a long time for a lot of lamp type applications one of the [TS]

  biggest limitations was the database the disk speed [TS]

  and like like a time where I was able to replace I think it was about nine [TS]

  or twelve read slave servers with one with S S D's and you know nine or twelve servers that had fifteen K. [TS]

  S.A.'s disks in RAID ten being replaced with one as a DB a server and the [TS]

  and those were those were old intellects twenty five says these are you know they've come a long way since then. [TS]

  That unit it now modernise is easier even faster than those and you know it's like when [TS]

  when you can make a big you know order of magnitude type jump if you can go from from ten database servers to one [TS]

  database server. You know that. [TS]

  It's kind of difference actually matters [TS]

  and is worth doing that that is something where performance has a direct impact direct measurable feel of all impact on [TS]

  scaling optimization for performance to a point actually is useful because in practice in practice most people most [TS]

  most people who make use of services make absence of it that most people are not going to get his biggest Facebook [TS]

  and Google. Most people are not even to get as big as you know small things that we've all heard of. [TS]

  You know it's most people are lucky to get a hundred thousand users to their web service you know [TS]

  and so by making decisions that favor high performance you can often keep you know that can often be the difference [TS]

  between being able to run everything off of the cheap easy to easy to Mr V.I.P.'s [TS]

  or a fully managed cloud service at a reasonable price and running a whole bunch of dedicated servers or running [TS]

  or paying tons of money for a cloud service or one of these things like that could make that big of a difference. [TS]

  And so it is you know on the scale inside this community from between you know needing just one fast database server [TS]

  and needing a multi server setup or being able to fit all on one server [TS]

  or having to share the database which is really complicated and adds a lot of maintenance [TS]

  or having to use a different type of tool entirely like a sender which is a world of hurt. [TS]

  It's just so incredibly not worth using. [TS]

  And [TS]

  and so you know performance does matter to the point where having a high performance system has a very good chance of [TS]

  keeping you from ever needing a difficult to scale system successful. [TS]

  Well the actual business that people don't understand the business people who don't understand technology [TS]

  and don't want to will apply both of these pressures to you because they will apply pressure for you to increase [TS]

  performance because they don't want to pay a lot of money for servers right. [TS]

  But they will also apply the pressure you for scaling because they will say. [TS]

  My business plan says we're going to grow fifty percent year over year for the next five years. [TS]

  So you need to be able to say OK we have five customers now in in five years we're going to have five million customers [TS]

  so I you know whatever multiple That is I don't want to pay if we if you have a greater than linear scaling is likely a [TS]

  one customer cost us ten bucks but two customers cost one hundred dollars. [TS]

  You've got a scaling problem immediately because they want the business to grow [TS]

  but they want to grow less than linear they want they want to double their number of customers [TS]

  but not double the harbor cos anywhere you're telling them as well. [TS]

  That's not how scaling works if we double our customers I need to weigh more than double our hardware cost that's like [TS]

  how much more how close are you to perfect when you're scaling and so they they want both. [TS]

  They want to you know it's too expensive every time we get another client we need to buy X. [TS]

  Amount of hardware and cost so much money [TS]

  and we're making only certain amount of money from each individual client we had. [TS]

  We can't afford to add that much harbor so increase your performance [TS]

  but year over year over year is like look we're going to quadruple our customer base can you quadruple our customer [TS]

  base you know like you know we can we go one database server were already buying the biggest machine we deposit that [TS]

  money can buy for a database server or we need a strategy for scaling in and then you end up charging [TS]

  and you know what about people in the parts of the country then you have all of that. [TS]

  If they're in charge how do these people interact with each other [TS]

  and it's like it's in some ways it's easier for software where it doesn't matter like Facebook where you're like the [TS]

  message shows up here a little bit sooner than it shows up there it's not it's not a banking system or whatever [TS]

  but not everyone's that lucky sometimes it really has to be you know that's where you're going to be kept there [TS]

  and again we have to pick your trade offs. [TS]

  And it's difficult and even no matter how bounded your problem is even it just doesn't scale everything down. [TS]

  If you're like oh I want to stick to you know V P S's [TS]

  or something really cheap I don't want to buy dedicate like you're playing in the small leagues [TS]

  but it still matters for your company when you when you're going from ten customers to ten thousand. [TS]

  It's the same exact thing playing out is just a smaller scale versus companies that start off from day one buying mass [TS]

  a dedicated hardware and the only difference in the high end game is that the. [TS]

  People are more likely to get into the situation where they are buying the most expensive computer equipment that money [TS]

  can buy from anyone in the entire planet. When they get to the end of their scaling rope and the like. [TS]

  Well I like we've increased performance as much as we can go we have no matter how much money we wave at somebody we [TS]

  cannot get a bigger single machine to do task X. [TS]

  Like now if you wait a bit longer think about scaling you have a serious problem because you've you've hit the [TS]

  performance that and like if your optimizer software [TS]

  but like yeah it's the same it's the same story it's just you know it's the fractal of itself it just just depends on [TS]

  how many commas there are for the decimal point and the invoices [TS]

  and that's this is one of the reasons why I really prefer to do things at a relatively low level [TS]

  and to do things that are fairly standard because you know even if you don't need scaling you know in quotes even if [TS]

  you don't think you need that today. [TS]

  Like knowing how to scale something or knowing knowing the steps that you take [TS]

  and the hurdles you will face is useful when writing anything even before it needs to be scaled. [TS]

  So for instance I set a number to unnerve Cajuns I never write database joint's ever joins our joint basically put a [TS]

  lot of work on the database server which granted it is very optimized to do. [TS]

  However I prefer to split up the joins into two calls like one to fetch the list of ids [TS]

  and the second to fetch from the target table you know which ones you get and stuff like that and design the schema [TS]

  and the code to do that. [TS]

  And that's for two major reasons one is to make that to give the database a little bit less work both through injuries [TS]

  and one give it a bit less work because database C.P.U. Power database resources are expensive and hard to scale. [TS]

  The second one is caching. [TS]

  Maybe you can cash that first where you know maybe you can cash a list of ideas you need [TS]

  and then you know only fetch the records or vice versa only fetch the ID [TS]

  and then fetch the records from cache things like that. [TS]

  In the third is that then that also gives me the ability later on if the service gets really big to say you know what [TS]

  the users table now has to have its own database. [TS]

  This gets hit so often [TS]

  and it's such a drain on performance that we should split this up into its own database cluster entirely so users is [TS]

  now on a different avi's then you can't do a join because I live on the same server any more so even like even with [TS]

  overcast I'm not running a joint I'm doing the same way I've always done it because it's not that much harder [TS]

  and it's you know just in case in the future that'll be fine i'll be set up for that upgrade to go sit you know the so [TS]

  many other things like very careful use of indexing. [TS]

  One of the most useful books I ever read on scaling was high performance My S.Q.L. [TS]

  and I read I read the addition before the current one and I liked it a lot the current one got a lot longer [TS]

  and the reviews weren't as good so I'm not sure if the current one is great I didn't actually read the whole thing [TS]

  but the previous one was awesome. So maybe give it a shot. [TS]

  But you know I think it's important it's important to make decisions like if you're writing. Suppose you're writing C. [TS]

  Code for an app and you're calling something like str when in in the loop to iterate through a string [TS]

  and calling Sterling the Durlan string if you know about performance at all you're in a look [TS]

  and say wait a minute you know that's being involved in every single call you you get this mentality that makes you [TS]

  make small decisions like that better. [TS]

  And in the course of a whole project that adds up [TS]

  and the end even though any one of those calls probably won't matter [TS]

  when you make every decision with a certain mindset in a certain sensibility [TS]

  and a certain wisdom about what will happen in the future or what the cost of this will might be or might add up to [TS]

  when you make all those small decisions the right way. The sum of all of that is different and does matter. [TS]

  Same thing applies to scaling when you make a bunch of small decisions to say. [TS]

  No You know what I can put a little more work on that on the database here [TS]

  or you know this doesn't need to be that optimized even you know the index isn't quite right to do this index only or [TS]

  or you know this is going to scan a bunch of rows to get these results [TS]

  but that will be a right you know it's how often do you going to do that once you get into the mindset of thinking OK [TS]

  what's going to happen when I have to do this thousands of times a second. [TS]

  You'll probably never have to [TS]

  but if you think about that from the beginning you can make better small decisions along the way that will add up [TS]

  and that will make scaling easier for you. Can we go back a step. [TS]

  You're saying that you would rather make round trips to the database than do something that the database is [TS]

  specifically designed to do that I mean I think what he's saying is that he doesn't want to use a database right. [TS]

  I know you don't like this is the newfangled key value storage things or whatever [TS]

  but if you're not going to be joined and I'm not saying that's the right or wrong decision [TS]

  but if that's the route you're going there are probably places you could store your data that would give you better [TS]

  performance for the same kind of usage pattern I imagine the reason you would like them is because there are newer [TS]

  and less mature [TS]

  and you know you're used to the features of being able to you know back up by people into easy replication [TS]

  and those are all important features and the reason is stick with it [TS]

  but you're kind of using my single in a sort of a degenerate state like you're using it as a really bad performing poor [TS]

  man's key value storage with some basic filtering doing your own joints client side we're just trying to get you get [TS]

  the other benefits of your familiarity easy backup easy replication reliability [TS]

  and you know that's why you're avoiding you know you that's why you're not another mom going to be you know nightmare [TS]

  story. [TS]

  Yeah I think you know obviously I know as as you [TS]

  and as the chat have said I'm going to lot of e-mail about my my no joint stance [TS]

  but the fact is first of all you said my school is WAY slower than some of the system and that's probably not the case. [TS]

  Certainly it is not always the case. [TS]

  The reason I use my skew well even though I'm not using some of the you know relational database type features like [TS]

  joints. [TS]

  You know I don't use stored procedures either out on the thing where you know that's just asking for trouble I don't [TS]

  use triggers things like that you know the reason I do this is because my S.Q.L. Is just frickin awesome. [TS]

  There's no other way to say I've I've heard so much crap about my fuel from people who don't use it [TS]

  and are prejudiced against it whatever and I know you know I don't use Postgresql. [TS]

  I don't use Oracle have I don't have an experience though so I can't tell you how it compares to those [TS]

  but I can tell you most of the criticism I have heard about my few well is wrong or at best outdated [TS]

  and only applied to my eye Salmon not the more recent in a D.B. [TS]

  Storage engine which at this point is not even recent And so if you use my S.Q.L. Within a D.B. [TS]

  As your storage and for all tables it's amazing. It is awesome. [TS]

  It's and I say I said this in a post recently and I you know the gravity of this I don't want to overstate this [TS]

  but it's hard to overstate this in all time the tumbler Instapaper all that time. Now overcast I've used my S.Q.L. [TS]

  A lot [TS]

  and you know a tumbler it was under extreme stress first for the entire time I was working there it was costly under [TS]

  extreme stress I have never seen my S.Q.L. Crash once. I have never seen my school corrupt data once. That's amazing. [TS]

  Look at any issue you've never seen a corrupted data I have never seen a corrupted I've never seen a crash. [TS]

  That's my skills actual functionality could be argued to be a corruption of the document going to have you look it up [TS]

  in the doc says that's exactly what it's going to do is not it's not wrong it's not a bug [TS]

  but like that's that's a philosophical difference [TS]

  and then you like a real database people have with my sequels like the documented behavior [TS]

  when it performs a documented behavior database people do you think get angry at it and I'm kind of one of them. [TS]

  I have that. [TS]

  We're talking about However if you look like Are you sure you're talking about you know modern versions of those. [TS]

  I'm like no no like we're weird coalitions of data types [TS]

  and cases where columns that are marked as not know can actually have no and weird things with empty strings [TS]

  and you like it they're all Dr Nagura is my if you're got your pages and just read through them [TS]

  and you know in terms of performance though like now that I'm saying you should switch to a different thing [TS]

  or something [TS]

  but like because most of the things that have massively better performance have much much less of the other things you [TS]

  describe like stability and reliability. [TS]

  But performance wise if your data model is kind of simple and never going to have joints [TS]

  and if you care about getting more government that you may or may not there are lots of other databases [TS]

  and that do go away faster than my sequel. [TS]

  Especially with energy because like it's the extra overhead of that of that storage engine you know most of the new [TS]

  hotness is basically people do almost everything in memory like it's you know it's not it's not like memcache [TS]

  or there is like a persistent memcache thing [TS]

  but a lot of them are like look we can involve disk in the operation of our thing here and you can imagine [TS]

  when you do almost everything in memory you go way faster than my sequel trying to diss of with the. [TS]

  Oh sure will and you know and there's ways you can you take advantage of that with caching already you can do that [TS]

  and probably my skill does already catch a lot of memory but you know certain And of course the O. S. [TS]

  Will catch a lot of the disk blocks memories of it but you know certainly you can use my S.Q.L. [TS]

  With predecessor memcache or any of the any a cache of some that are out there [TS]

  and I mean most people do it's fine you know that's like people there's this big it's a cool thing to use a different [TS]

  storage engine these days but the fact is a storage engine is oh boy here we go. [TS]

  A storage unit is like a file system is you know you don't want to change that very often [TS]

  and you want to be extremely conservative and extremely focused on data integrity [TS]

  and my if you will is so incredibly like Battle test. [TS]

  Good it is so solid and yeah I get that it might not have always been that way back in the olden days of mice [TS]

  and all the crap but those days are well into the past now and modernized. [TS]

  My school has been rock solid I would say for at least seven or eight years and that's why Google use it very heavily. [TS]

  They still do [TS]

  but they at least did I know you lots of major major sites use my sexual Twitter use it for a long time [TS]

  and probably still do. There's a reason why it's really really good and it's people. [TS]

  There's a great blog post a few years back when a Friend Feed existed T.V. [TS]

  Some idea and it was a blog post called how Friend Feed uses my S.Q.L. [TS]

  To store schema less data and how to find it but in the show notes [TS]

  but there's a lot of good stuff in here Friend Feed was a weird project that was run by incredibly good engineers [TS]

  and it's basically got a lot of the stuff like My S.Q.L. Even if you don't use some of the database the features of it. [TS]

  My fuel is still an amazingly fast solid low needs low maintenance storage engine that has tons of tools a huge [TS]

  ecosystem tons optimization potential there are so many reasons to use it [TS]

  and if you look at one of the newer systems it's you know and you know things like Mongo [TS]

  or you know all these like new no S.Q.L. Type systems. [TS]

  If you look a lot of those you know they have some benefits but if you don't necessarily need those benefits [TS]

  and what you really want is fear database to be like a file system to be basically bulletproof. [TS]

  My skills a great choice and I feel like I get ignored because it's old. [TS]

  This comparison is kind of harsh so I don't mean it the way it's going to sound [TS]

  but it's it's as close as we can align in the forest along a few things here again in the world of databases what is [TS]

  the P.H.P. Of databases it's kind of My S.Q.L. Is way better than P.H.P. [TS]

  Don't get me wrong but if you have to map onto it like that's what ends. [TS]

  Then like what's the Python of databases that's probably post-arrest you know like that that's that's more [TS]

  or less how things line up and like what's what's a C.C. Plus plus of databases of like Oracle you know. [TS]

  And what's the Ruby it's like you know the B. or Something like. But to align things I say is very clearly P.H.P. [TS]

  My skill at the P.H.P. [TS]

  Databases and that sounds terrible I know because it is not as bad as being a tree do not get me wrong P.H.P. [TS]

  Is terrible [TS]

  but it has many of the same characteristics in like that it's everywhere it's a known quantity it's reliable [TS]

  and has idiosyncrasies but once you know that you think these are they don't bother you that much [TS]

  and the thing about using it for schema less like that's why people do that because they like [TS]

  or have a tool that I know is reliable. [TS]

  I know what it's capable of [TS]

  and I'm going to use it like you said in a degenerate kind of way like I'm actually going to use it for Scheme in the [TS]

  state I know it's not a scheme Elice database system I know there actually are schemas [TS]

  but I'm going to find some table with columns or keen value and version number and some other crap in and it'll work [TS]

  and it's like you were taking advantage of a system that works in a way that you're comfortable with that has all the [TS]

  features you need and is reliable and your building something else on top of that [TS]

  and all I was saying with the other database type things is like if you care more about performance there is these days [TS]

  much more performance to be had if you're willing to trade it for less reliability and more unknowns you know [TS]

  and I'm hoping that that sort of younger section of the of the data storage world matures in coalesces [TS]

  and we get some sort of equivalent of My S.Q.L. [TS]

  or Even best case on a quilt in a post press where it's like a tried [TS]

  and true known quantity within that realm right now we don't have now right now kind of the Cambrian explosion over [TS]

  there I'm not sure how it's going to shake out [TS]

  but it's still it's still worth keeping your eye on because if you know twenty years from now you're still using I seek [TS]

  no joins there will be either a great failure of the no sequel world to come up with a useful product for the long term [TS]

  or a great failure due to keep an eye on what's going on. [TS]

  Possibly but I have two questions firstly what is the role of database and strong [TS]

  and I was trying to think about I don't know. Maybe maybe an S.Q.L. but Neither one of you remember that. [TS]

  There is really is no problem there is I don't know what it is it's probably one of the one of the newfangled databases [TS]

  and that I was not familiar enough with the thing that has kind of like there's nothing that has the same combination [TS]

  of like a precursor to all of the better known ones now with lots of weird quirks like I don't I don't know that is [TS]

  but it's it's not bicycle definitely isn't it just some academic paper that swears that it's academically flawed as [TS]

  that. That's part of the prospects you know thing in their database that can be written but not read. P.H.P. [TS]

  Look just like Perl you can to make a call. [TS]

  Let's I got out there or can we still back up to you just spent Marco five or ten minutes explaining how [TS]

  and how my sequel is amazing and reliable and does what it's supposed to do really well [TS]

  but you don't trust it to do a fricken join like that I can't get past that it is an issue of trust. [TS]

  It's an issue of leaving yourself open for future scaling options. [TS]

  It's about being able to say you know what my database server is going to at some point be split off from my web server [TS]

  once a month I have my service has more than five users and this is going to have its own server [TS]

  and it's going to be harder and more expensive to increase database hardware resources than to increase application [TS]

  or web hardware resources. [TS]

  And so you might as well have the application and web stuff do more of the work and make the database easier job. [TS]

  So things like you know reduce the number of queries to put the number of queries that go to it that you know make them [TS]

  access fewer rows make them access fewer tables make you have to do a C.P.U. [TS]

  Work but it's more about Io you know let the database do only what the database is required to do [TS]

  and let your other servers take on as much work as they can. [TS]

  OK but you'd rather ping away at it and do a good zillion round trips to avoid these joints like I. [TS]

  I've been through a tumbler I've been bantering Instapaper so I'm doing that thing which I told you I don't want to do [TS]

  in the beginning of the episode where I'm saying that seems weird [TS]

  but genuine question Have you ever done anything to imperiously prove to yourself like have you used a new relic to [TS]

  prove to yourself that this is legitimately the right way to go you can do it on paper that you've given yourself a [TS]

  massive market [TS]

  but I'm sure the answer that is yes because any server that offer quickly realizes the part that has all the state is [TS]

  the hardest part to scale I mean he basically just laid it out like you can just do it on paper. [TS]

  There's a certain amount of work that needs to be done. One part of your system you can scale really really easily. [TS]

  One part is really hard to scale you want the hard to scale part to do like the same whatever operation does the most [TS]

  efficiently primary key lookups maybe have a do that same operation over and over and over again [TS]

  and have everything else you can do put on the easier to scale parts like you know there's lots of ways you can do the [TS]

  math to figure out you know how it works but like just I think you even if you just think about that logically [TS]

  and reason through it [TS]

  and that's not even to get you a linear scale we're just trying to keep our heads above water with a step a strategy [TS]

  you always want to push the the work out to the system that is to scale [TS]

  and so I mean it's kind of the Google approach [TS]

  or like a big table where they went to the extreme where like their their data store was like really annoying to deal [TS]

  with and unreliable and applications had to retry and figure out how to resolve conflicts and it was just like [TS]

  and made it incredibly hard to replicate and stuff like that was the price of scaling early on [TS]

  and they've made strides in that way [TS]

  but basically you're trying to move the work to the systems that are easy to scale [TS]

  and web servers are ways you know to scale and not not performance scale [TS]

  and again your computing performance in that you know you have that goes round trips you're going to cross it that work [TS]

  in making multiple queries like that's performance we're talking about scaling it's fair point [TS]

  and I did that literally forever it's worth you know we're putting a lot of your putting a lot of weight on these round [TS]

  trip. [TS]

  Run trips to a database server or to a meme kasher or that's you know in the same rack [TS]

  or at least of the same data center as they are coming from point you know we're talking about a lot of time here that [TS]

  I don't think you know all of this depends on the kind of application you're writing how much data you actually crating [TS]

  like to build the page you know or to build the A.P.I. Response that you're talking about. [TS]

  How many database called do you actually have to do is it seven or eight. Is it fifty like. [TS]

  Is it more that like there's what you're doing matters a lot and you know it's infinite [TS]

  or was fairly easy to scale because it was never as big as tumbler [TS]

  and I was using I was using Tumblr style techniques at Instapaper So of course it was way overkill. [TS]

  Which is great which is why which is why I was able to afford to run it and not go crazy and not go broke. [TS]

  But you know a time [TS]

  when we face things like to give you one example how do you display the list of posts on somebodies dashboard so you [TS]

  have to figure out who they follow and then other [TS]

  when they follow to find enough posts from those people to make twenty of them an order them properly. [TS]

  There are so many different ways to do that [TS]

  and there are there in the naive ways where you do if you joined then you have any do a big sort [TS]

  and it's all fine you know the naive way does not really skill very well just because you start dealing with hundreds [TS]

  of gigs of data pretty quickly and that and the database having to scan you know millions of rows [TS]

  and that starts performing very badly so a lot of times what you think is the most like good naive approach. [TS]

  Actually in practice it does not is not useful it is not. [TS]

  It doesn't scale well enough you know becomes too expensive or becomes completely impractical [TS]

  or impossible to do it scale. [TS]

  So you start having to do weird little hacks [TS]

  and so you know one of the hacks we get a tumbler early on was actually something that I learned from. [TS]

  Unrolling a loop [TS]

  or doing some setting up some big bunch of setup stuff to do a bunch of you know simply operations on it like it gets [TS]

  longer [TS]

  and get uglier looks like you're doing more is like the Seems like it's more work you know in the same way like my head [TS]

  is my screen they've got me all day and I wanted one big self consistent blog but this nice join query [TS]

  and replacing it with these multiple queries [TS]

  when I just dated together myself like that it's longer How could that be better. [TS]

  I mean I guess is not a fully accurate in the US case like you're actually increasing performance. [TS]

  And here like Marco said you're you're protecting yourself for future scaling although in some cases even in the deep [TS]

  dark world of databases human is stored procedures or if your query planner is not your friend. [TS]

  Like say if you use Informix. [TS]

  Speaking from experience that sometimes if you want to get a massive amount of data it's better to write a stored [TS]

  procedure procedure [TS]

  and essentially be the query planner yourself do it all in a database you know all right on top of the thing that they [TS]

  look. When I give you this join you can do something dumb. [TS]

  So let me run this great this great this query join the master results together put them in a tent table index with a [TS]

  temp table. [TS]

  Joining is that temp table with the second mate like [TS]

  and like how could that possibly be faster than just running the query you want is like well the creeper [TS]

  and I made some very unfortunate life choices when we send in a matter of fact. [TS]

  Doing this crazy stored procedure like I mean once you're creating temp table index I mean like there's no way that [TS]

  could be fast in the rain a query like. [TS]

  Well you know let me show you like databases are funny things [TS]

  and the more you can treat them the way Mark was treating treating them the less headaches you'll have about them [TS]

  and I think the more you should think about whether you're sharing the using a database [TS]

  but that's you know that's a competition. [TS]

  But anyway the idea that the sort of client side code of the consuming code gets longer and uglier [TS]

  and more complicated. [TS]

  That is not outside the realm of normal programmer experience [TS]

  when just increasing the performance of your regular you know compiled code that makes sense. Yeah and it's a balance. [TS]

  You know it's a balance you have to strike. [TS]

  Obviously you know if you're having severe problems and severe scaling challenges you're going to have to. [TS]

  No more in that direction of more complex code. [TS]

  That and I'll be more bugs you'll have things like weird caching bugs and you know things like replication delay [TS]

  or eventual consistency bugs. [TS]

  I didn't even know what your book structure using and that's all hard that's all complicated [TS]

  and certainly you shouldn't do that sooner than you have to. In most cases. But again it's a balance. [TS]

  Just like you shouldn't waste all your memory as much as possible when you're writing a C. [TS]

  Program already program for that matter. You know it's either find a balance and with servers and scaling. [TS]

  I would lean a little more just because the nature of you know using someone else's vast resources on their computer [TS]

  versus expensive shared server resources. [TS]

  I would lean a little bit more towards a little more complicated but way more scalable. I make sense then. [TS]

  Far be it for me to argue with you Mr tumbler. Thanks. They have functions this week. P.D.F. [TS]

  Pen for i Pad new relic and a glue and we will see you next week. Now on this show is over. [TS]

  It was accidental accidental was accidental and you learn today learn from as I said that can live tomorrow. [TS]

  I'd like to tell you about why I hate my car now. [TS]

  Wow Is it because I didn't get there early Finally it is actually relatively dirty dirty at the moment. [TS]

  Aaron and I decided this past Saturday to go to the local drive in movie theater [TS]

  and if you have a local drive in movie theater I cannot suggest enough that assuming you don't have small children [TS]

  which I guess that definitely limits mark on probably limits drawn in this particular context. [TS]

  If you don't have small kids you can escape the kids go to a drive in movie it's really cool. [TS]

  Instead of the way the Goochland drive in theater works which is between Charlotte on Richmond is you poll [TS]

  when you pay something like eight dollars a person in your car and you get a double feature [TS]

  and you get the audio for the Double Feature by tuning to a F.M. [TS]

  Station that the that the theater broadcasts [TS]

  and it's a really cool experience especially in a really pretty night like this past Saturday was planned. [TS]

  We have been several times in the past although not for a year or two and [TS]

  when we've gone in the past I've taken my car which at the time was my Subaru. What color was that that was white. [TS]

  We'll take an Aaron's car which was and is still a Mazda six which is a great silver and we've never had an issue. [TS]

  Well this past Saturday I had just washed and waxed in leather conditioned and vacuumed Erin's car [TS]

  and so I thought well my car is dirty because yes my car does get dirty It just takes longer than forty nano seconds. [TS]

  Unlike Marco's car. So we decided to take the B.M.W. The B.M.W. [TS]

  Has a pushbutton starter and it has an accessory mode and so I figured self there would be no issue here. [TS]

  What we'll do is we will go to the drive in theater I will put the car in accessory mode by turning it off [TS]

  and then press. [TS]

  Thing the push button once and we will listen to the movie on the stereo [TS]

  and it will be wonderful I will turn off the i Drive display I had to figure out how to do that because I completely [TS]

  forgot and I will turn off the i Drive display and everything should be good and right in the world. [TS]

  So that's what we did. And after ten minutes I heard the B.M.W. [TS]

  Chime that you might remember from neutral and it was telling me that my battery was dying. [TS]

  What after ten minutes of having the radio on does the car have two batteries or the smartest [TS]

  or something Marcos car does does it. [TS]

  Now that I know of are those cars like ten batteries [TS]

  and I thought it only had one you couldn't you couldn't find the one battery that one guy was partially filled with [TS]

  that I don't they're always on the passenger side in the trunk. [TS]

  Now if we went through this anyway I thought his car had two batteries and I thought I thought I was a common B.M.W. [TS]

  Thing but what do I know. For all I know. [TS]

  But anyway now it could be that I that the battery in my car's original I believe it is [TS]

  and it was purchased originally and I think December twenty ten. [TS]

  So now we're getting to the point that maybe this is all a battery issue that I'm misconstruing to be a core issue [TS]

  but what I can tell you is that the radio at least once turned itself off because it felt like it was tired of being on [TS]

  and thought that I'd left it on. [TS]

  Not deliberately and I'm like in a keyed car where you physically put the key into accessory mode [TS]

  and a push button car it's just being told where you put yourself an accessory [TS]

  and I guess we'll hope that you don't turn yourself off and it turned itself off [TS]

  and then I turned it back on in like I said after like another ten minutes [TS]

  or something like that it started digging away about how the battery was dying so we ended up watching only the first [TS]

  of the Double Feature by lowering the windows which by the way used a whole lot of juice because you are moving a motor [TS]

  is a heck of a lot harder than moo than to having an F.M. [TS]

  Radio on but I did that we lowered the windows [TS]

  and we listened through everyone else's because my damn car wouldn't stay running in. [TS]

  I was afraid I wouldn't be able to crank it [TS]

  and the other really interesting thing is even though they have whittled jumpstarting boxes at the theater I was so [TS]

  scared that it would get so dead [TS]

  and the jump starting boxes would take so long to trickle charge it that I wouldn't even be able to push start the car [TS]

  because it wouldn't be able to engage the push button ignition into run mode to get the things I could for can push [TS]

  start it so it sort of ruins our entire movie going experience [TS]

  and granted we're talking about a sum total of sixteen dollars but if you really really really annoying. [TS]

  So now if we take my car to the movie theater again if for no other reason than the auto disable [TS]

  or you have to take a frickin stereo for like a boom box with us [TS]

  and keep it quiet so we can listen to the stupid movie. [TS]

  You know you're already got her to marry you because they were not pressing your date on this night. [TS]

  OK Two things One the fact that you can solve this problem by you know like a twenty dollar bill in box makes it a lot [TS]

  less of a problem. True too. [TS]

  Do you think anybody who designed this whole like you know electronic pushbutton start in accessory mode [TS]

  or not I'm a turn off. [TS]

  Do you think any of those people involved in those decisions have ever been to a drive in movie theater. Certainly not. [TS]

  But it's still very annoying. [TS]

  You know some of the reason i Pods that have interest in them like the old i Pod Nano see how do those high end [TS]

  but they have a fountain I you know we could do that out in advance what are actual hitech really ridiculous [TS]

  but it could work. [TS]

  And also you should get a new battery carcass ridiculous [TS]

  and yes batteries do go bad sometimes suddenly after many years. So you do it replace them. [TS]

  Yeah [TS]

  and actually the more I think the more I think that may be the issue in terms of the warning about there's actually there's [TS]

  some the pops up in the I drive it's increased battery discharge because gets very upset that the battery got as low as [TS]

  it did [TS]

  and so the next time I take the car in which will probably be for the N fifty five recall that everyone just real [TS]

  or that B.M.W. Just announced I will certainly ask them. [TS]

  Either replace it or double triple check that it is healthy as they claim it is. [TS]

  But man what a stupid problem to have I mean maybe this is the biggest first world problem ever it probably is [TS]

  but what a frustrating silly problem have because an errant car which has a key like most normal cars. [TS]

  None of this would have been an issue. [TS]

  And I also wonder if part of the problem was because the i Drive is a whole frickin computer. [TS]

  I wonder if the whole damn computer was turned on with a little twelve or fifteen gig harddrive spinning and so on [TS]

  and so forth. [TS]

  Even though the display was off in other words there's not like a short circuit if you will just for the F.M. [TS]

  Radio to keep that on a no freakin nav [TS]

  and everything was powered on just like it was in the radio do you think you could have brought the soundtrack to the [TS]

  movie on vinyl and maybe played it on a gram phones them easily to any power at all and we don't hear it and we don't. [TS]

  I hate you. [TS]