62: Journey Would Be Wasted On You

0:00:01If we wait another decade ninety's musical wraparound to become awesome like the eighty's music did well that just

0:00:07never happened.

0:00:12As I always do I listen to the show last week

0:00:14and I kept waiting for myself to make a point to that I meant to make during the show

0:00:18and it's conceivable that I stopped paying attention for three seconds and missed myself saying this.

0:00:24So if I'm repeating if I'm repeating something I said in the very last show I apologize.

0:00:29So to be clear you are following up with your theoretical past self.

0:00:33Yeah like I mean I don't have you know I don't have notes or anything but

0:00:36when we are talking a piece on like this is one of the major points I want to make

0:00:39and it's about scaling which we also talked about in the last show

0:00:43and I don't know how I could possibly manage to miss it. But just in case anyway.

0:00:48One of the innovations that the company that makes the P sell thing is supposedly bring to the table is the ability to

0:00:56solve this problem that we discussed in the show are sort of solving for what signal needs to be sent out by all the

0:01:05various towers so that the interference combines to make exactly the right signals in exactly the right place so not

0:01:12just for one phone

0:01:13but for two ten five thousand whatever every single one of those all the towers that are transmitting that could

0:01:19possibly be overlapping in interfering with each other need to do so in such a way that every individual phone gets

0:01:25exactly the signal it's meant for it in exactly the spot that the phone is.

0:01:29And that as you can imagine requires fast communication between all the nodes but also a lot of processing power

0:01:36and the Suppose that innovation that the companies bring I think Artemis is the name of it.

0:01:40The companies bring is the ability to solve that that problem.

0:01:44Hey everybody what signal do all these towers need to put out so exactly the right signals going to the right places to

0:01:49solve it in a real time scaling linearly with the number of phones.

0:01:54So instead of the old we can solve for two phones three phones

0:01:57but as we go up to ten phones then it becomes like a hundred times.

0:02:00Hard to solve and if we go for a thousand phones it's like a million times hard to solve there's no way we could do it.

0:02:05Supposedly they have a system where they can just add computers and a more

0:02:08or less linear fashion to support more phones within the cell area

0:02:14and so that that's what allows this system to be possible that you know there are things we have the computing

0:02:20capability to do this we have the communication Bashar to do it

0:02:23and we have come up with a way to solve whatever this you know this problem is that to solve for the output that all

0:02:31these cells towers need to put out to make constructive interference in just the right way and we can do it linearly.

0:02:37So because if you couldn't do it any early you can imagine that maybe you were to work for like a trade show

0:02:41or something

0:02:42but for an entire city with thousands upon thousands of cell phones if it didn't scale immediately you've got big

0:02:48problems in terms of computing power and so that is one of perhaps the most important planned that

0:02:53and the ability to do with existing cell phones of existing L.T.E.

0:02:55Networks are requiring special hardware on the handsets. Those two things are the two things that make peace possible.

0:03:02Again according to the claims we'll see how it shakes out.

0:03:05All right and the next bit a follow up was actually for me for once it doesn't happen often

0:03:10but it does occasionally happen.

0:03:12Last episode at the end I was discussing or John and I

0:03:16and occasionally Casey making vinyl references were discussing scaling and and the difference in scaling performance

0:03:23and in it I discussed how

0:03:25when I'm writing web apps I don't use database joins I if I don't use them in local Abdi there

0:03:32but that's more because of my framework anyway so I don't use database joins

0:03:37and the reason why don't you Davies joins us for various scaling concerns

0:03:40and you know basically to keep my options open for splitting up the database in the future

0:03:45and also to shift as much work as possible onto the easy and cheap to scale web flash application servers

0:03:52and leave the hard and expensive to scale database server with a viable workload is possible. Anyway so I got it.

0:04:00Bunch of feedback on that from a lot of people.

0:04:02A handful of people who agree with me and a whole bunch people who disagree

0:04:05and the people who agreed are typically people who had done it before who had who had worked on large large scale

0:04:13applications before who had seen these problems

0:04:16and solved in the same way so of course they would agree because they they did the same way themselves.

0:04:21The big harmony is my technique of not using joins.

0:04:24Was that you you know we've never needed that in our organization or in our project

0:04:31or I personally never needed one of my projects.

0:04:33Might as well you know use database as much as you can and when you need it then you know then you cross that bridge

0:04:42and to me.

0:04:43I wrote a quick thing on my blog so not to go too far into it

0:04:45but basically I think that's kind of the wrong angle to approach scaling questions from.

0:04:50Scaling is constantly asking yourself then what. So OK you have this.

0:04:58So far you have all these things on one server because that one server is enough.

0:05:01But then what happens when it's not enough then what.

0:05:04And scaling well and building scalable systems means trying to anticipate some of those then what scenarios

0:05:12and having a decent answer for it that's not going to involve rewrite half your code

0:05:17and go through your whole code base and make sure you aren't using joint anywhere anymore.

0:05:23Or you know because you know if you think about not only that a ton of work

0:05:27and it could potentially introduce tons of books if you haven't written this way from the beginning

0:05:33but also you'll probably be doing that under incredible pressure and time.

0:05:39Time constraints because you're probably doing that because you hit an oak wrap moment in your scaling

0:05:44and you realize oh wait a minute you know I've added the most RAM to this and I could possibly add

0:05:48and it's not helping or this you know I've done everything I can with one box and it still isn't enough. What do I do.

0:05:56And if you if you don't plan for.

0:06:00Those And you know obviously this is all qualified with you know to an extent

0:06:04or within reason you know you don't have to plan to be the next Facebook because you probably won't be.

0:06:09And if you do become the next Facebook you can hire a bunch of Smarter people than you to do all this.

0:06:13As you get that big.

0:06:14But even just going from from tiny to small or from small to mid size you're going to hit some of these questions

0:06:23and you're not going to have a giant I.T.

0:06:25Staff you're not going to have infinite money you're not going to be infinite time

0:06:29and so it's worth considering that because you know a lot of people would say oh this is about premature optimisation

0:06:36and premature optimization is wrong period because that's you've heard that before it sounds good

0:06:41and the fact is that's you know premature optimization is not always wrong or bad. It's a trade off.

0:06:47You're trading it in most cases you're trading some complexity for some or a lot of performance and or

0:06:55or you know in case of scaling options in the future for for better scaling are easier scaling or possible scaling

0:07:03and so premature optimization and designing things to be scalable can be worthwhile if it's relatively easy

0:07:11and if there's not a lot of major costs to it you know both in time and in maintenance and limitations in the app

0:07:18and other things like if it's if it's relatively easy to make better decisions that make your app more scalable the

0:07:24whole time you're designing it you should do it because it isn't you know it's like a best practice.

0:07:30It isn't that much more work and you might never need but when you do need it you'll be very glad you have it.

0:07:37So I guess that's it on that topic for now do you guys have any to follow up on scaling.

0:07:42I think there are two other threads of feedback on the on the thing.

0:07:46One war the people who are saying that it sounded like you're using bicycle without using any relational features so

0:07:53here are a bunch of non relational data storage that you could use instead so as a couple people had and then.

0:08:00The other one was I think maybe it's just one person

0:08:02but I thought it was a good point that we didn't get to that depending on the nature of your application if you have

0:08:07something that's sort of non interactive and trivially silo a ball you could get away with.

0:08:13You know you would have to worry about this joint type thing because all you would do is just sort of shore it up by

0:08:17customer and one customer's data would never make it was another.

0:08:21And at that point like this you know then you have your entire scale you know are a lot of scaling strategies entirely

0:08:27based on giving users up into smaller and smaller bins

0:08:30and you just need some way to figure out where this user has been is and that could be something super fast

0:08:35and easily scalable and then just the bins.

0:08:38It's like well the bin is too slow my solution is to cut the bin in half

0:08:41and that point if you do joins against the bins it doesn't matter all it does is make you have to cut them into pieces

0:08:46and there are easy social applications are not like this where you have to wear this some sort of global awareness

0:08:53or you're following that person things and they're following yours over there

0:08:55and you know most systems are not this simple

0:08:58but it was a good point to like it really it really depends on the shape of your system what what does the state look

0:09:03like in your thing what state are you tracking how is the state related to the other states.

0:09:09And if you're sure that there is no into relations

0:09:13nor will there be in the future you can get away with just starting by you know by a user.

0:09:18That's a very big if though

0:09:19and I agree like you know if you have something like for instance if you look at something like this

0:09:25and ask for fresh books these like these hosted applications that you know they create a little little site

0:09:31or thing for you as the customer

0:09:33and these are by definition very private things that no one none of their other customers need ever need to access your

0:09:40data in fact there it should be it should not be possible for them to access your data.

0:09:44So it makes sense

0:09:45when you have something that is that strictly divided by user where the users will never have to interact with each

0:09:51other or their or their data it makes sense to then do that kind of starting there.

0:09:56But if you have any kind of consumer facing.

0:10:00General purpose service kind of thing like there's there are so many options for cross data referencing

0:10:07and you know if you if you start out with a system that charted in that way then first of all you are that is a pretty

0:10:17big limitation you put on yourself and your development and it does that complexity and does that managing the plexi.

0:10:23So that's the kind of thing that I would be very careful to decide if you're to say that up front to do that in the

0:10:28beginning I would be very careful that decision because that really will limit you later

0:10:34and it might not be necessary or it might not be right

0:10:36or you might have to pivot it into something that that has a little bit more data cross over.

0:10:44Even the consumer facing systems doesn't like real systems that are out there a lot of the times they will take the

0:10:49part of their system that scales in this way and scale it in that way

0:10:52and then use a different strategy for like the interrelated.

0:10:55That's when you have to end up doing

0:10:56when you scale things you can end up breaking breaking apart the fun the functionality of your application which is

0:11:01part of the reason why you're not doing to us

0:11:02but just like in the grand scheme of things that may be user information could be shored up nicely by user

0:11:07but then all the interrelated information has an entirely different back end with entirely different scaling strange

0:11:11like you end up you know the whole service oriented architecture thing you end up with different pieces of your

0:11:16application scaling in different ways we very often it's not there is no one master scaling solution for your entire

0:11:21app you have to look at it in pieces

0:11:23and like the logon flow is like this session management like this user information is like this.

0:11:27Relationship Management is like this I mean one of the great examples I remember I wrote a story a while back about how

0:11:33linked in a fairly standard looking back and except for the part that handled all the relationships

0:11:37and that had to be on a server where it was all in memory and are reading that

0:11:40and feeling bad for them because it's like you know that's built in time bomb for scale like they're raised they're

0:11:46raising Moore's Law to see Will the amount of the relationship information linked in get big faster than we can buy

0:11:53machines pester them they mount of RAM we can stuff into a single machine.

0:11:58And so that's kind of an unfortunate thing but it's obvious.

0:12:00I didn't use that same scaling strategy for the user information was just for the relations information which is

0:12:04another system and then one more thing honestly that then what.

0:12:07QUESTION One of then what's the you that you haven't asked and haven't had.

0:12:12Didn't have to ask for Tumblr probably will never out that's running your applications

0:12:15but I think a lot of people thinking about that then what should consider is the idea of making database accesses from

0:12:25essentially a web application

0:12:27or any application for that matter like the code that is running your thing it connects to a database.

0:12:32Very often in these large applications need to find somewhere to scale they have to put a layer in between there so you

0:12:38want some kind of data access layer that does not connect to the database to get information

0:12:43and so if you're using something like this it actually model over everything

0:12:46or any of these like things that basically you're going to put your projects equal in your code somewhere right.

0:12:52And you like well it doesn't matter you don't see the sequel thoughts tracked it away a bit like essentially what

0:12:56you're making is is a front end to do sequel great story like if I needed to I could swap that out for something

0:13:01and didn't talk directly to a database.

0:13:03But it would be kind of painful

0:13:05and so if you make a data access layer that is agnostic to the destination either you make it work over a sheet from

0:13:11the very start and then have sort of a Web site you know a web service back

0:13:14and they get you that information you like well that seems like it's going to be slower

0:13:17and it seems like a waste of time and I'm never going to do that maybe you're right

0:13:20but in my experience a lot of applications one of the first things they run into you know if they have perfect

0:13:25horizontal scale ability in terms of charting users because that type of thing so it's like a B. To B.

0:13:29Business where you're always you know your customers do want their stings to be solid like it was no problem will

0:13:35eventually arrive into the realization

0:13:37and most especially using relational database most relational database products are not made to support the number of

0:13:42connections that are anything close to sort of the scale of users on the Web site

0:13:47and so you have to conserve those database connections you need some sort of I mean there David action pulling all the

0:13:52other strategies

0:13:52but in general if you divorce your application as much as possible from where it's getting its information even though

0:13:58that information is in the database now.

0:14:00Having some sort of transport layer in there like even something is done that they should be paid for some kind of you

0:14:04know again service oriented architecture thing that seems terrible performance for performance

0:14:09and often is much worse for performance

0:14:11and that's why people say now do you know the case is probably you know he was complaining about having to make a round

0:14:16trip to the database for multiple you know imagine if you had to make an agent something then that something would

0:14:21potentially go to it as even more overhead and yes you are sacrificing performance

0:14:25and complexity for a long axes that you think you might need to you know you might need to that

0:14:33and then what says OK well we're out of database connections you know then what.

0:14:38Or you know like having having the application correctly connect directly to databases that you know a security concern

0:14:44or a networking issue or whatever then what if you do everything as a service

0:14:48and you could have you know multiple data centers

0:14:50and different you know I do everything already dipping into geographic load balancing

0:14:55and have all this you know give you more flexibility. So that's a then what.

0:15:00Just one more than what I've I've come across many times in my working career and every time I've either designed

0:15:06or been working an application that connects to a database I've regretted it. But your mileage may vary.

0:15:11Now I agree on that and I'm pretty sure I don't actually know this for sure because when I left I actually did leave.

0:15:17But but I'm pretty sure at Tumblr that was that was like one of the big things they did.

0:15:23Pretty soon after I left like once they got like a more experienced staff in there who would work on systems of that

0:15:29size which it was

0:15:31and he wanted to reach the levels that it was it was getting pretty far beyond my ability to scale it myself and

0:15:38and that's that's when the first thing they did was move to that kind of architecture

0:15:41and that does make sense that is one of those things again where I'd like I think you can go a pretty long way without

0:15:48doing that.

0:15:49And so again

0:15:50and it's it's a premature optimization that you you know it might be worth it for you to do that in my case it almost

0:15:58never is. And it never will never has been so far but certainly that is something that might be worth doing.

0:16:05I don't like that phrase of his like it built into premature optimization prematurely saying you're doing it sooner

0:16:10than you need to.

0:16:11Like these after station fees whenever

0:16:13and that's one of the the vocabulary tools wielded by programmers in arguments like well that's a premature

0:16:18optimization but it's a tautology like you are asserting that is premature by calling it premature.

0:16:23Likewise a premature one is premier is it too early

0:16:26or is it not too I think that's the whole argument they were supposed to be having

0:16:28and you can't win that argument by pulling out the term premature optimization.

0:16:32That just explains what your position is the new stuff to defend it's all these accusations what you're saying Marco is

0:16:36like they're not premature This is in fact exactly the right time to do it because my expectation is X. Y. and Z.

0:16:42and You're arguing about like are we ever going to get big as we as we scale which thing will break first like you have

0:16:48to basically said what is our maximum possible size what's the first thing that's going to fall over.

0:16:52How long can we go doing joins How long can we go directly connecting to the database you just can map them out

0:16:59or have arguments about like which one you think is going to come first and then you know you live

0:17:02and learn applications change shape as you go and it will be a make some bad choices

0:17:06and maybe you know I thought we were going to grow in this way

0:17:08but it turns out this feature ended up being much more popular

0:17:10and we had this thing before we had that thing so you're always trying to get you know second guess the future is

0:17:14but the whole point is don't do any premature optimization

0:17:17and do ones that you know are not premature in fact exactly the right time to do them

0:17:22and to to know what that is you have to just you kind of have to guess but you use your experience

0:17:27and your knowledge of building similar applications in the past you know like maybe maybe instead of thinking of them

0:17:33as premature you think of them as whether they're worthwhile or not anyway

0:17:37and the other the only other thing I would say about that about having that multitude architecture is for whatever it's

0:17:44worth if database connections are your problem you're in a weird situation I've never seen before.

0:17:52I have never seen a database be limited by its number of connections.

0:17:56Maybe that's because I write my code to disconnect one of done.

0:18:00The connecting disconnect is another thing a lot of especially you know old school relational databases are not

0:18:05designed to handle connection storms

0:18:07and you know how many users can try to connect to Davis once say one hundred thousand users want to connect at the same

0:18:12time.

0:18:12What does I do versus those hundred thousand users being spread out over a minute over thirty seconds over one second.

0:18:18How does it handle that and then you will have persistent connections OK

0:18:22but now you have people tying up connections and now you're the number you know. I see it all the time now.

0:18:27Fair enough.

0:18:28That's probably more you know you sick specific with whatever your application actually is and how

0:18:33and what Or However your layer actually treats the database connection

0:18:37and how good your pooling solution is because again relational databases depending on their vintage may

0:18:41or may not have robust pooling solutions to Google scale or one of the fun things is you run out of port numbers.

0:18:47Oh yeah so and I do like what I do like the web sockets

0:18:50and they like you know it's like a sixteen the number you get sixty five thousand a murder ever

0:18:54and I think you mean like LET YOU hundred runs a limitation of the operating system like well this machine could

0:19:00support more connections but we're literally out of port numbers. That's insane.

0:19:04It makes sense but that is not something I ever would think to be a problem.

0:19:07Yeah well that's what Google's for to find those limits and actually hatch a Linux you know overcome them

0:19:12and figure something else out.

0:19:15I never got into the level where I had to start tweaking kernel settings things like that.

0:19:18Like we would just we would use the kernel stock because that was like I would like

0:19:23and I get I don't know if I don't know what tumbler situation is now to get their way bigger naturally now that the

0:19:27Yahoo bought them they're probably getting a lot of help from Yahoo's people

0:19:31and running into the guy who's infrastructure who knows.

0:19:33But certainly at the time I left that we never had to get into that.

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0:21:15Once again I have a question for the both of you guys

0:21:20and I think it applies to both of you want to start with you Marco So how do you how do you get outside of your comfort

0:21:28zone and learn something new and what if if you think about your history you wrote tumblr in P.H.P..

0:21:37You wrote Instapaper in P.H.P. Yes My sequel for both the magazine P.H.P. In my sequel now overcast P.H.P.

0:21:43and My sequel even second crack which was kind of a for fun pet project with P.H.P.

0:21:49In my sequel are like it's not my sequel that P.H.P. What how do you how do you learn something new.

0:21:56How do you go about that. Do you not care. Does it not bother you do you.

0:22:00Just don't think it's an issue right now when you learn it

0:22:02when you need to because the only thing the only example that I can think of knowing your history is

0:22:06when you learned I was development for instance paper but have what have you done since then

0:22:11and what cued me off on this was everyone saying you should look at an NEO no sequel databases

0:22:17and you basically said well I've got my sequin works fine for me.

0:22:21Well it's a combination of factors I mean one is certainly that I'm not very good at making myself learn new things

0:22:28about don't have to you know that's that's just a character flaw I guess that's you know no question that's one of the

0:22:33factors.

0:22:34But also there's two others one is conservatism that you know I been on the cutting edge before I have I have lived in

0:22:45the cutting edge world before and it's a lot of work and it's a lot of maintenance

0:22:50and versions of weird things running on your server that crash in the middle of night need attention

0:22:56or hating weird bugs.

0:22:57You know that because of just your bring such a new version of things are such a new technology that has really had all

0:23:02the bugs ironed out yet. So part.

0:23:06So that's another big part of it that I just I I'm now at a point where I want to avoid those kind of costs if I can.

0:23:12And that's not always going to be the case.

0:23:14And sometimes it's worth the cost so for instance on overcast servers I've decided to run a V.M.

0:23:21As the interpreter layer because it is just so much faster than P.H.P.

0:23:26and I'm probably one of probably going to either so I was setting up my load balancing today

0:23:30and I'm probably going to have two web front end V.M.S. To start and one of them are running one of them run P.H.P.

0:23:36So if it crashes we really are STILL have you know something to take up the slack until I fix it.

0:23:42But for whatever it's worth.

0:23:45Generally speaking I try to avoid those kind of bleeding that the cost of being on the bleeding edge because I've

0:23:51decided it's not worth it.

0:23:52You might have a different calculation on that for whatever your application might be for me I've just decided it's not

0:23:56worth being on the bleeding edge Now that being said.

0:24:00Obviously there's there's a lot of things that I could learn besides P.H.P. and My S.Q.L. and An Objective C.

0:24:05For I was development.

0:24:06There's a lot of things I could learn that are that are mature and are far from being on the bleeding edge these days.

0:24:11And for most of those I haven't simply because it hasn't yet been really necessary.

0:24:16Learning things has a big cost

0:24:18and I have to weigh whether it's worth going through the learning period going through a period of finding all of the

0:24:25intricate details of the behavior and finding out the best ways to do things and and learning the A.P.I.

0:24:31Is in enough depth to use them really well.

0:24:34And I'm at that point with the technologies I know now for the most part and for me to learn a whole new language

0:24:40or platform or something.

0:24:42It has to be worth that learning curve

0:24:45and I've decided that for what I'm doing currently it's not work that I'm part of that.

0:24:50Obviously like on the on the Iowa side I don't think there's anything I can learn that would be better than Objective

0:24:55C.

0:24:56I don't think there are any any better things really than you know for for what I'm doing I think I'm using the best

0:25:01things already for the Web site certainly you can do a lot better than P.H.P. These days..

0:25:07I still would argue that that might not be the case for my S.Q.L. but Certainly you can do a lot better than P.H.P.

0:25:14The main reason I haven't gone there on the web side is not only that I don't really need to know if something's

0:25:22forcing me and not only do I already know it it's very stable

0:25:26but also I just don't care that much about the Web site I am not that interested in running cutting edge web stuff

0:25:33or even learning new web stuff I don't really have to learn because the Web site to me is a supporting role I am I am

0:25:40not making a web app that happens to have an i O. S. Client. I'm making an I O. S.

0:25:45Happen happen to have a web backend and that's where my focus is I care so much more because I was

0:25:51and that's why I want to be cutting edge on the Iowa side I want to be doing everything right on the Iowa side

0:25:56but the Web site is really just serving us.

0:26:00The porting role here and

0:26:02and it's it's more important for me like I don't care about new stuff I'm very interested in learning new framework for

0:26:08I.O.'s like it felt like when when so much of the school stuff it's come around like Grand Central Dispatch

0:26:13and stuff like that like so much of this cool stuff come around that I was really into I love that stuff I find it very

0:26:18interesting. That's a fair point.

0:26:20New web stuff I just don't care about its I I don't care what web programming I really don't enjoy web programming

0:26:25anymore I find it very boring

0:26:27and I do it because I have to to build the products I want so that you know that the primary goal is I like client side

0:26:34programming for i O S N C C and I like the products that result from these things

0:26:40and so the web codebase is really just a you know supporting role for that so for me my my priority there is just get

0:26:47it done.

0:26:48I don't want to spend a ton of time on it just get it done so they can do what I need to do not

0:26:53and that doesn't include like learn a bunch of new web languages

0:26:57when I'm not really being presented with clear motivations to do that.

0:27:02Yeah that makes sense and I think the most surprising use of P.H.P.

0:27:10For me isn't overcast or Instapaper tumbler it's second crack

0:27:15and granted it makes perfect sense that you would use something you're familiar with especially for a project that's

0:27:20not going to make any money and you just do it for the heck of it.

0:27:23But when I write something outside of work

0:27:26and I do it for fun I tend to force myself to use a different technology for example I wrote fast text which was which

0:27:34is an I O. S. and I didn't object to C. Because I know Jack to C.

0:27:38and I wanted to learn it

0:27:39and I have been dabbling with writing my own kind of second crack let's call it third crack for the sake of a

0:27:45conversation I've been using node because I've heard a lot of great things about No no I wanted to try that actually

0:27:50really really come to like it and it's just surprising to me.

0:27:54Perhaps because you don't have a corporate stooge job so you have a lot more control over your own destiny. But.

0:28:00Surprising to me that you don't have this thirst to learn something new

0:28:06when I don't learn a new language in about a six months to one year window I start to get kind of crabby

0:28:12and angsty in anxious and I really need to learn something new and it seems like for better

0:28:18or worse that that doesn't seem to apply to you.

0:28:21Well it does totally you know I get that like the programmer basically.

0:28:26I totally get that but I have different areas than that in the web language I use.

0:28:31Second crack for those who don't know or care they can crack is my is my custom static blogging engine that I wrote

0:28:37and it's it's just like a bunch of command line scripts basically and they're all written in P.H.P.

0:28:41and I'm probably the only person in the universe using P.H.P. To write command line scripts and that's fine.

0:28:47One

0:28:48and that you're right that totally would have been a great opportunity to try new language it was a small project with

0:28:53small needs that was not very pressing to get it done quickly and doesn't need to scale really.

0:28:59You're right that would have been great

0:29:01and maybe some time I will rewrite that because where it's it's pretty crappy really I mean so maybe you

0:29:07and maybe cinema rewrite in something else. But you know part of the reason why as you said I don't have a day job.

0:29:14When I wrote second crack it was itself a procrastination from my actual.

0:29:20That's part of that's part of the problem you work for yourself is that any time you're able to do work like that it's

0:29:27potentially taking away from your quote work like your official work that you're actually getting paid for trying to

0:29:33get done and I forget exactly which project I was procrastinating on when I wrote second crack.

0:29:39I'm pretty sure it was probably Instapaper but I'm not I'm not positive on the timing on that.

0:29:44But either way that was itself a procrastination

0:29:47and so I didn't want to spend a lot of time on it so I that's why as I figured let me just use P.H.P.

0:29:52Because I can get it done very quickly with P.H.P. I don't want to be a big time sink then that makes sense.

0:29:58That being said though I stir.

0:30:00All learn tons you know as I said like I try to keep up as much as I can with with I specially low level stuff like for

0:30:07instance with overcast I don't use a V.

0:30:12Player or the audio player

0:30:15and I'm not sure if I've said that publicly before I think I have so there shouldn't be a big surprise

0:30:19but I'm playing audio files and I'm not using a V. Player and if you've ever worked on the stuff you should know.

0:30:27Therefore what that means I'm using rock or audio and that this is an amazing learning process

0:30:34and probably I didn't need to do that you know I have some reasons why I did it but I probably didn't need to.

0:30:42Chances are you could just do you know you could I could I could've used a B.

0:30:46Player and save myself a lot of time

0:30:47but I wanted certain though the control I want to learn the stuff so I mean extensive use of things like the Accelerate

0:30:54frame work using all the V.D.'s P.

0:30:55Functions so these functions that basically vectorize operation the new SIMD instructions to fight that to really make

0:31:03these things awesomely fast if possible and I'm using that stuff all over the place in so many ways

0:31:09and so I'm learning things like that I'm learning various different concurrency strategies and

0:31:15and you know doing things like the crazy ring buffer for the for the buffering of the samples I'm reading from the

0:31:20files and everything like that stuff I love.

0:31:23That's all really interesting to me this is all you know that's where I've been learning is in overcast client side

0:31:30code and again the web stuff I just I couldn't possibly care less about.

0:31:34So John what about you because your day job has been as far as I know pretty much forever in Perl.

0:31:41Do you ever have that itch. What do you do to scratch it if so.

0:31:46Well it was time for like fun programming projects

0:31:50or all the things that I've put on my own playlists actually besides my job over the years.

0:31:54You know writing virus tech they go it embodies much more of a pod casting more recently.

0:32:00Much Time for Fun program products like I wrote my own little static blogging engine thing

0:32:04but that was kind of like Markos and the like.

0:32:07Yes Well speaking of fun product it really was a practical thing and my you know I just want to get done quickly.

0:32:13So I wrote it in progress I know you get it done quickly

0:32:16and I intentionally stop myself from making it good because it was like you know this is something I know how to do I

0:32:23could make this thing have bells and whistles

0:32:25and be awesome in this cool features like no make it as dumb as possible get done with it like this I was at that point

0:32:30I was trying to not distract myself from writing which of not strike myself from writing any more by making the engine

0:32:35but I'm also not writing but anyway back then it was like Don't spend time writing the engine you do this all day.

0:32:41It's stupid.

0:32:42Make the dumbest thing you can possibly do that works and I did and it's super dumb

0:32:46and you know it didn't stop me from writing but the thing that I think has made me like try new things and stuff

0:32:53or whatever is kind of the the brutal nature of the tech job market starting in the mid to late ninety's

0:33:00and that I've had a lot of jobs and you know like how did I get to use them S.Q.L. My S.Q.L.

0:33:07Sequelae Oracle Informix post-arrest like you're not going to get experience in all those databases probably in one

0:33:15place even if you're there from the beginning when it's like three guys. Maybe I'll touch on one or two of them.

0:33:20But like how will you ever take a in-depth survey of all these different areas projects where you do it by taking

0:33:27having like seven different jobs in the first place you work.

0:33:30There is no database you get to pick something a second place maybe is my sequence there

0:33:33but if you decide to use postgresql a victim of a very fine like

0:33:36when you make commitments like that like they tend to last for a long time you know if you're somebody coming they're

0:33:41already using Oracle you are going to come in there you know you know what I really like to try out post-crisis like

0:33:46well we're using Oracle so you know get a different job

0:33:50and language is the same way like if you're a web developer Yes everybody that works has use Perl in some fashion

0:33:56but the proportion of my time spent writing prose is very wide.

0:34:00For example the company where I use post-arrest extensively a huge amount of the code was in stored procedures

0:34:05and post-arrest and various points I was mostly a post present day to based designer slash sword procedure writer

0:34:13and Informix We also use a lot of stored procedures.

0:34:16And like if you're writing an application that is mostly essentially a java script application that just talks to to a

0:34:21faceless backend the face is back and it's pretty boring and the entire application lives on the client side

0:34:28and so you are at that point you're writing a job script application.

0:34:30It's it's not a node where it's you know server side javascript client side but all the frameworks like what

0:34:35and what framework are using you know how do I get these frameworks going from plain old Dom to like prototype dojo

0:34:41Jake Weary you know angular Amber's backbone underscore like how do you get to use all those you're not going to use

0:34:48all that one place because once you start building application on top of one of those you're probably going to keep

0:34:52building it that way

0:34:53and so well you know degrees real popular now so we should really we really pick the wrong parts

0:34:58when you decide to do everything with prototype and you know rails at that a little bit

0:35:01and to some degree as well as like well you know how many thousands of lines are in this application now do you want to

0:35:06rewrite it with Jake warier or do we just continue plowing bravely on board

0:35:10and so yeah changing jobs not using not voluntarily but more like you know the company starts to go down the tubes

0:35:17or you know have layoffs or or changes direction

0:35:20or whatever you getting a job it's a new opportunity learn a lot of new things even if the whole time like I'm just a

0:35:25web developer as a web developer Meanwhile developer means being multi-lingual learning you name it like even C.S.S.

0:35:31Like C.S.S.

0:35:32You don't know if you know that if you know the specs but there's all languages on top of the I has like less

0:35:36and sass and stuff.

0:35:37You'll find yourself learning new languages all the time just to keep up with the constant amazing churn in web

0:35:43technologies and you are

0:35:46and you will build products on whatever the web technologies are at the time that your company choose or you choose

0:35:51or whatever

0:35:52and then you go to the next shop they'll be different set of technologies not that I enjoy moving jobs I don't I wish I

0:35:56could say one job for you know I don't I don't like switching jobs I find it stressful.

0:36:00But the plain fact is that I have switched jobs one times

0:36:02and I think that has forced me more than anything to learn new technologies that make sense.

0:36:07I'm a little surprised that neither of you seems to dedicate the time outside of work to do this.

0:36:15But let's also not lose sight of the fact that you have children

0:36:18and I do not have probably relates more than just a little bit.

0:36:22I mean I read a lot about it like I mean what I had about you know I have never written a significant program Objective

0:36:28C.

0:36:28but I feel like I know the language I don't you know and I'm never in any way these frameworks

0:36:32but I know a lot about them.

0:36:33It's like yes it's kind of like a Della concert

0:36:35and of like well I just read a lot of books about it is true I did read a lot of articles I read a lot of books read a

0:36:41lot of Ruby Python code read a lot. No Jazz code read headers from cocoa then to see what it's like.

0:36:46I'm not coding in those

0:36:47but I feel like by surveying them I am I don't know if it's the same thing as like it's certainly not the same thing as

0:36:53a real project but you kind of get a sense for what's out there

0:36:56and so it's not entirely alien to like why am I reading these big these big long Russ tutorials want to read all the

0:37:01documentation about go. Because I have a project in mind as we're going to use them.

0:37:04Probably not but I have an academic interest in that type of thing.

0:37:07I think reading through it gives you an idea of what it might be like to program and actually I did.

0:37:14I did look at go recently because everyone could tell me I should.

0:37:17It does look really interesting

0:37:18and I think if I were to go through the trouble of learning a whole new web language that might be the one I would go

0:37:24to because it seems like it's made with with my sensibilities pretty well aligned.

0:37:30So anyway this should be a great opportunity to talk about our second sponsor which is Lynda dot com that is L Y N D A

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0:38:30have the video and then they have next to it they have a transcript and it tracks

0:38:35and transcript shows you it highlights where you are what's being said so you can

0:38:38and then you can scroll to the transcript to jump to any point videos you can make skim through

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0:38:47point the video really well done. You can watch them on your i Pad and everything it's fantastic.

0:38:52They don't need Flash or any stupid stuff like that.

0:38:55Now relative to our recent discussions they have language they have courses in web development for instance that you

0:39:02can learn no J.S. You can learn angular Jass or copy script or as many people would tell me to learn. No S.Q.L.

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0:39:19for non-programmers so you can learn how to make an app if you're not a programmer there actually are about two

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0:40:20Thanks a lot Linda for sponsoring our show once again.

0:40:23Apple did something a little on Apple like today

0:40:27and they've announced in a West End beta program for regular people for non developers this is surprising to me.

0:40:38What did you guys think.

0:40:41I wasn't so old I can remember definitively one thing details of the old capitol three Developer her grandma

0:40:48or both of her image has changed over the years

0:40:51and right now it's like ninety nine dollars for the Iowa step program ninety nine dollars for the for the OST

0:40:57and Graham

0:40:59and those prices were a step down from the old program which was like you could be a select developer for like five

0:41:05hundred dollars a year you could be a perimeter developer for like twelve hundred

0:41:09and there was no I always told her maybe there was merely a at the tail end of that.

0:41:13But anyway there were several programs for i OS and I was ten

0:41:17but there was also a free tier where you could be a developer of the free tier

0:41:20and the things I can't remember at the freak here where the you got early seeds of the earlier us ten betas are not.

0:41:28Yeah so some I can write and tell me the exact details of what the free programs are like

0:41:32but anyway this is kind of a return to the free things like hey you can be a registered developer kind of sort of not

0:41:37really at Apple

0:41:39but it's not like if you're just interested in getting the pre-release software sign up for free you don't have to pay

0:41:44ninety nine dollars because I assume you're not going to you're not going to write your applications you just want to

0:41:47get the early versions of the OS which a lot of people did back in the day it's like well you got to be part of the

0:41:52program if you want early releases so you know even if you're not going to make your own application

0:41:56but isn't there why I'm always had to have a number of them act at all.

0:42:00I'm not writing mac applications but I have been a member of the mac developer program paying member for just years

0:42:07and years now because that's how you get there early releases

0:42:09and this is an example of the ability to get the early release

0:42:13and I soon nothing else except for just the early releases like no you know no developer technical support incidents no

0:42:19ability to sign apps and upload them to the apps aren't all that other stuff but a way for regular people.

0:42:26So you do need an Apple ID You do need to agree to a confidentiality thing where you're not going to talk about you

0:42:31know the features that you see and so on

0:42:33and so forth you do agree to let Apple like collect diagnostics from your computer

0:42:37and all the other normal stuff that you might imagine agreeing to if you decided to run Beta software.

0:42:44How about Apple and in return you get to see an early peek at things. So are you surprised by this.

0:42:51Not really because like you know like they're not first of all these people are not going to assume they're not going

0:42:57to get the same seeds the developers get it's going to probably Apple's going to take their time

0:43:01and release maybe you know developers maybe get five or six seeds

0:43:04and of those Apple pick like here's one seed that everybody gets in and will be a bunch of devotees

0:43:09and then one see that everybody gets an A budget of seeds

0:43:11but nobody's getting anything until someone goes on stage shows you know the new features

0:43:16and stuff is not as if you will be seeing some secret thing before everyone else everyone's going to see unstated of

0:43:21your P.C.

0:43:22There are going to be a bill to the beat of idiocy

0:43:24and you know at that point like well who cares if you get do you get that every day you see Bill do you get to build a

0:43:30couple weeks after that like the cat's out of the bag so I don't think that by signing up that's allowed to pay any

0:43:35money

0:43:35and I get to know all of Apple secrets you're not going to know any secrets like continue to go to the rumor sites if

0:43:40you want to see for the screen shots of Suppose that you know unreleased things this is merely a way to let you you

0:43:46know basically Apple is doing this because I think they want to wider testability of their west

0:43:51and they're trying it out on a Macas that's probably seems like a safer bet.

0:43:55There is one more people to try stuff out so they're not surprised when they really something to the pub.

0:44:00Because there's a very small number of developers

0:44:03and they have probably a less diverse set of hardware than than the market at large.

0:44:08And so I would prefer I think to get a wider testing of it so I said not not right away into certain builds

0:44:14and you know like we think you know maybe think two

0:44:18or three releases leading up to it these are the ones we want to test widely to check for you know can driver

0:44:22compatibility issues or issues or whatever.

0:44:25That's why Apple is doing this because Apple thinks will benefit them

0:44:28and make their software more robust it's not it's not them doing you a favor to let you see the software it is entirely

0:44:35hey we really need a wider testing base for you know a certain point in the development of our oil as it comes a point

0:44:41where we say we we know all we can know with our small set of internal testing and Q.A.

0:44:47and Our small set of developers are using this.

0:44:49If anyone want to sign up for a wider beta we would love to know like if something's crashing on some obscure

0:44:55configuration that we don't have here and we can collect the data and figure it out

0:44:59and maybe they'll consider doing that with I.I.S. Eventually as well.

0:45:02But I think the mac is like a safe place to try out this type of program you know I tend to agree.

0:45:08I thought that there were a couple of interesting things that came from this firstly something that occurred to me was

0:45:17it's a giving it's Apple participating in a little bit more outreach

0:45:22and a little bit more community involvement I know especially after Microsoft build.

0:45:27There's been a lot of comparison between Microsoft's approach to developers

0:45:32and Apple's approach to developers Now granted this isn't a developer specific program

0:45:37and that's kind of what I'm driving at is that you would think if Apple was going to reach out into the public at all

0:45:44in any capacity that perhaps it would be to be a little more friendly to developers I agree with what you said John

0:45:50that this is really about Apple doing what's good for Apple as Apple always does

0:45:55but it just seems kind of unfortunate that they're reaching out to the wrong group in the US.

0:46:00Nothing I was I was thinking about was what if they've learned from Iowa seven and I was seven.

0:46:08Even though a lot of the Nerds knew it was going to look really different in really flat

0:46:13and that's really how you would describe it but you know I mean it was it has depth

0:46:17and right it has depth of clarity and chance and edges away but any fray what if Craig Hockenberry is right.

0:46:27He wrote a really great post I think was a post maybe it was a series of tweets

0:46:30but you know what he wrote something recently saying hey there's a lot of indication that a West End is going to look

0:46:36pretty different in the next version.

0:46:39And his point was developers you should really start testing with some of the fonts we expect them to use and so on

0:46:44and so forth.

0:46:44Well what if this is queuing up

0:46:47or setting up for is a better way phrasing it a little bit more outreach to the public at large so I don't see we see

0:46:56the newest hand.

0:46:57It looks really really different and rather than nobody getting to see it

0:47:02and nobody getting to play with it except developers or those willing to pay one hundred dollars.

0:47:07Maybe they're trying to reach out to some of the super Apple nerds

0:47:11or maybe even like self-appointed evangelists if you will and say hey you try it out

0:47:17and you spread the word that this isn't so bad.

0:47:19I'm standing on a whole bunch of theory here but I don't make sense to me.

0:47:24Well it's not so much that they want one of them to be evangelists for them I think it's more like to use examples from

0:47:29O S ten instead of the I was seven things kind of like their attempts to handle auto saving getting rid of the save

0:47:34command by sending out what's probably going to be a fairly significant U.I. Overall of the O. S.

0:47:40To a wider group of people they hope to find out earlier rather than later that oh

0:47:44and everybody hates the new auto saving people and save at the back

0:47:48and I want to have a command kit like that's type of thing you could have found out in a wider early beta

0:47:54and that they only found out after the release and had to you know patch up in mountain lion.

0:47:58You know I mean like that's.

0:48:00Again it's serving apples not just hey let's see everything crashes or whatever but also if people flip out because

0:48:07when you see

0:48:08when all those people who are looking at rumor screenshot see something like that they may have trepidation about it

0:48:13but Apple has no way to get feedback from them and really like well a lot and think well I'm going to try

0:48:18and see what it's like when I use it

0:48:19but if all those people who are so enthusiastic going to reading a rumor site have the actual peer really so they go I

0:48:24think got to try it

0:48:25and said oh I can't even I can't tell what's what like you know for example you know these buttons with borders I can

0:48:30tell other buttons that isn't like Tex or you know that the eye was equivalent to like if there's some big U.I.

0:48:35Change that they're there they're not so sure about it they put it out to a wider audience they will get a look

0:48:40informed feedback instead of like I saw screenshots Alex like it's going to be terrible

0:48:44and be presumably through the mechanisms that they're going to distribute there'll be official channels to riches

0:48:49and that if you'd like not just complaining on Twitter or posting and web forums or whatever

0:48:54but actual feedback directly to Apple where people can write twenty paragraph missives about why they don't like the

0:48:59new look and how they can tell which one it was in the front anymore.

0:49:02Whenever they're going to say you know I mean yeah I make sense. Marco any thoughts on this.

0:49:08IMO I'm less excited about of the most people.

0:49:10I mean first of all it's mostly because I have zero interest in running a beta version of O S ten of my mac zero like

0:49:18the the only time I ever install a beta was when reading list was first added to it

0:49:26and I was tipped off that this was a thing in the betas

0:49:28and I should see it at the time I still I still own Instapaper

0:49:32and so I signed over the developer program paid one hundred bucks and you know to see this reading listening

0:49:37and see if you know how worried I had to be basically and.

0:49:42And even though I saw it on a laptop that I didn't care that much about because I'm like it's so important to me that

0:49:47my computer work perfectly as much as possible and ever

0:49:51and whenever my computer does not work perfectly as much as possible.

0:49:55It's it's very disruptive and it's potentially very costly to me.

0:50:00So I I always want to make sure that that I'm OK in that regard you know

0:50:06and so it's just not worth me running the betas for the most part ever I do an i Phone because the i Phone isn't

0:50:13important to me if the i Phone you know if my i Phone reboot twice a day that's annoying

0:50:19but you know a well it's more important for me and I was because my software runs

0:50:24and I was it's more important for me to do to get into that as well as possible

0:50:28and to have my software running on my main phone someone's unlike Iowa seven comes out that changes a whole bunch about

0:50:34the entire parity you are the entire style.

0:50:36It's good to start getting that ingrained in me earlier so I can develop for it well things like that

0:50:43but because of those apply to me you know it's on the O S ten side I just don't care at all.

0:50:49Now you know maybe the problem was not enough people were testing things on the left hand side to make it to make the

0:50:57testing really worthwhile to Apple or to accomplish their goals because you know do you see them doing this for us.

0:51:03I sure as hell don't because I like the I was baited like everyone who want to pay to get it you know they find some

0:51:09developer to get them to add it to their account and add their device to their account and they get the beta

0:51:14or everyone pulls together you know money

0:51:16and buys a slot on someone's you know there's all these weird things people do to get Iowa State as these days

0:51:23and you know the reason they don't really need to do it there

0:51:26and they probably won't do it there is because there's all this demand around Iowa Spears all the demand probably isn't

0:51:32really there for the last ten betas

0:51:34and partly because you know Macs aren't as interesting as i Phones There are a few people have them in part that's just

0:51:40because O.-S. Ten doesn't change that much. Maybe this next Beta will be so different.

0:51:46You know maybe maybe ten ten will be so different that everyone will want to.

0:51:50Who knows but I'm guessing they weren't getting enough people testing

0:51:54and that's why you got you had things like the crazy G.

0:51:56Mail problems and Mavericks that like why was not caught in the bay.

0:52:00Or you know stuff like that because I'm guessing most people who are in the U.S.

0:52:03Ten betas probably have the same the same priorities I do in that they probably don't want to run them on their main

0:52:11work machines so they probably are like you know developers who make mac apps who want to make sure their mac apps work

0:52:18so they probably run a minute V.M. or On some other hardware that that's not their primary stuff.

0:52:22They and then they just test their app you know.

0:52:25So if that's what most of the testers are doing it's an apple best interest to try to broaden that Hester base

0:52:31but again I don't I don't see this is that big of a deal I don't see how many people who are not developers and

0:52:37or who are willing to pay for the deliver account before I will see how many people are going to really get who are

0:52:43going to be dying to install what's probably going to be a boring beta of a board no as an unborn product because

0:52:49they're all pretty mature at this point you know speaking of the G.

0:52:51Mail thing like that's one aspect of you know even if you do install the betas like I have to do of course for primary

0:52:59view if you that's something that you do whether you're a developer or the writing

0:53:03or view whatever you're doing with the betas if you're if you're one of the people who has an account like for a reason

0:53:10now because you're part of the press or because you're a developer you almost never use it against your real data.

0:53:16So you're not going to use your real email account or your real contacts

0:53:20and with good reason because if you had done that you would learn eventually that some early beta version of an O.

0:53:25A scramble your contacts

0:53:26and I said you always have usually multiple test accounts multiple test i Cloud accounts multiple game sender accounts

0:53:32multiple everything like you know the army mail accounts dummy contacts like you don't put your real data.

0:53:39And so are you going to notice the email bug all you're doing is just like you're not actually sending

0:53:45and receiving e-mail you're not actually keeping track of what you're marking read and what you haven't

0:53:48and so you wouldn't notice these bugs because you're like yeah yeah like why would you even go to the Mail app unless

0:53:53you just want to see what the new features are whatever if you don't use if you're real human I really like her didn't

0:53:58mark that messages on Reddit is it.

0:54:00Test messages maybe you would notice at all

0:54:02and I think this actually will go to a different pool of people who want to use it

0:54:06and who are going to use it with their real data

0:54:09and I would say at this point if you find this program exciting you want to use these betas.

0:54:14Keep in mind that like Marco said he doesn't use it I think on his main machine I never install beta versions of a

0:54:19stand on my machine.

0:54:21Ever like I have a complete separation because i even

0:54:25when it's like oh this is the golden master like oh have you installed the older No I wait until I can get it from the

0:54:31mac app store

0:54:32and didn't they have a thing that this most recent release for like the build number change the last minute

0:54:36or whatever.

0:54:37I never ever ever install anything

0:54:39or maybe see on my real computer I always get it used on you know I would always get it from the actual CD that would

0:54:45come in the mail you know like a retail CD or D.V.D.

0:54:48or These days the actual one from the mac app store I won't even usually install the datto release.

0:54:54Well you know it Cajun Lee I'll be wary about that been in the past he releases them pretty good.

0:54:59So if you're thinking of doing this Apple has all these crazy warnings everything have a back up

0:55:03or whatever like by all means if you're enthusiastic you know what you're getting into

0:55:07but realize like it could erase your entire hard drive like you could scramble your contacts

0:55:11and I don't know where I got back it's what if it's scrambles all your contacts

0:55:14and I can wear those back ups like how are you going to restore that i Cloud is very opaque

0:55:17and it's difficult to wrangle it back into shape so be aware of what you're getting into I imagine that since this is

0:55:22free a lot of people you'd like oh awesome I'm going to try the beta

0:55:25and then it will hold them in some way of the be like

0:55:27when the band like it's you know that's you knew what you were getting into

0:55:32but you don't know if you can do the other going to Iran.

0:55:34That's part of the experience I did the same thing back in the day with like you know it was a betas

0:55:39and stuff where they were just terrible and data destroying and it's that that's I guess it's over.

0:55:46I'm trying not to generalize and say I was going to like a bunch of enthusiastic teenagers destroying their parents

0:55:51and I guess with a divergence there

0:55:52but like I was that teenager you know why why not why why shouldn't it be like I think that's kind of a rite of passage

0:55:58but so.

0:56:00Because we want to say that I recommend nobody joined this program but I think that people will and I think

0:56:05and I think that the people who do join the program will be providing a different kind of testing than the existing

0:56:10people who pay ninety nine dollars a year.

0:56:12We're also sponsor this week this is sponsoring this week as a print on cardstock.

0:56:18Thanks Marilyn because of a printer loading error. So I have my state sponsor read this week. P.P.

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0:58:41We learned today about some new thunderbolt information about third generation Thunderbolt

0:58:46and I'm not really that excited about it mostly because I don't plan on getting a new computer any time soon

0:58:53but Marco do you want to tell us about this.

0:58:57Well there's not a whole lot known yet so there's not really much of discuss I just save it for you know three years

0:59:05from now when these ports actually come out.

0:59:06But basically intel there are some leaked until roadmap document that showed details in the next thunderbolt version

0:59:15thunderbolt three are probably called and

0:59:18and basically able to cling on MacRumors basically Dell in the bandwidth of two forty gig gigabits per second.

0:59:26And they're going to actually change the connector which is probably going to be interesting to me they're going to get

0:59:32a smaller connector that also apparently will be able to charge of two hundred watts. Yes that's ridiculous.

0:59:40Underscore Kyle Cronin in the chat room just asked a really good question which direction does the power go here.

0:59:46Does the peripheral power the computer or vice versa.

0:59:49I thought us that on Twitter they were saying you could almost power displayed and you tweet that today.

0:59:53Yeah that's interesting though that yeah I didn't think about that direction. All this says is it enables.

1:00:00System charging up to one hundred eighty C. Did it already. Speaking of A.T.C. The other A.D.C.

1:00:05Apple display connector power and the twenty two inch apples

1:00:08and over display there was one one cabling it sort of this is this is the other way.

1:00:12This is the other way that this is saying that your thunder like a thunderbolt display could could charge your laptop

1:00:18right without the little dangly mags a thing like RAM somebody pointed out on Twitter also that this is the proposed

1:00:25code name Alpine Ridge controller for Intel

1:00:28and this is apparently still three generations away here something it's pretty far off.

1:00:32So we're probably not seeing it soon.

1:00:34It's probably a year

1:00:36or two at least I think it might be sooner than we think because like it's maybe not across the line

1:00:43but soon enough that I think the changing connector is a little bit upsetting because it's like I know we did one apple

1:00:49to wait any longer to do what it's you know to really want to be a lawyer for the night pro

1:00:53but even if it's like no one one

1:00:56and a half to three year gap like you're going to change a thunderbolt connector ready we just got thunderbolt ports on

1:01:01our macro I can and they are going to change and the difference is one point five millimeters and height.

1:01:07And I mentioned on Twitter that I have been staring at the edges of various Retina MacBook Pros in meetings that work

1:01:14with us to do in boring meetings thinking about thinking about which one of those connectors is going to get thinner

1:01:19next because if you look at the side what we have is kind of a menagerie of MacBook Pros around the office depending on

1:01:26who got their hardware when you can see them slowly getting skinnier

1:01:29and you could see like that you can report disappears up the mag's squish look like the U.S.B.

1:01:34Is practically edge to edge and you can see them squeezing and squeezing in really this headroom there

1:01:39but the way Apple designs their laptops there's a curved section that sort of gives you a place for you to hook your

1:01:44fingers underneath and then there is a flat section is perpendicular to the table and that's where the ports go

1:01:50and they squeeze that thing down like a mag say U.S.B.

1:01:53and Thunderbolt

1:01:54or squeeze pretty tightly in the flat section now it's like if you want to make a laptop then you could start giving up

1:01:59the low.

1:02:00A lip that you talk your fingers under

1:02:02but you don't want to make something that's like as thin as just a flat section a flat on a table he will be able to

1:02:06pick it up either trying to get your fingernails underneath it to try to pull it up off the table so things have to get

1:02:11thinner and you know Thunderbolt is probably you know U.S.P.

1:02:15Is probably the first one but we already know we talked about show the new U.S.B.

1:02:18Three connector that will be skinnier so that takes care of the U.S.B. Ports.

1:02:22That leaves thunderbolt as potentially the thickest thing besides mag safe

1:02:25and mag save I think is due to be revised as well because to everyone seems to hate

1:02:31but due to the design it's like well it's a big magnetic service

1:02:34and people had mag safe too because it's not as secure as the old one because they made it you know they made skinnier

1:02:39if you make it skinnier still want to be even worse

1:02:41and maybe it's time for a new magnetic power connector that I mean I don't think they want to insert dissolve

1:02:47when it's supposed to come off easily but I think they could use a desire is in as well the Thunderbolt.

1:02:52It seems kind of early for them to be making the thing than are and I'm a little bit worried about that.

1:02:56I hope this I hope this does come sooner rather than later I hope actually twenty fifteen that we would see this

1:03:01sometime in county

1:03:02or twenty fifteen if only for the redneck angle you know because now finally if I only in theory would have been with

1:03:09to do my desired quad twenty seven inch retina resolution display it still depend on like a new display port specs

1:03:17and everything else

1:03:17but this was a bunch of acronyms that Syria provides us like I don't know what it might to encompass is I don't even

1:03:23know it. TB two years so maybe one of those maybe one of those things would could could power.

1:03:29I'm under the resolution that I want but change the connector is a dimension of the an adapter

1:03:34and adapter you're going to get.

1:03:36It's like two years at the thunderbolt appears already to do that because I guess because they want to do all over

1:03:41again.

1:03:41Well and to be fair I mean how many people really have been able to vice

1:03:46and so far it's not going to be a massive problem to have all these people buy a little you know thirty dollars doctors

1:03:53are probably even less than that I mean it's you know the whole problem with the devil is that no one's using it.

1:03:59The stagnation of the mark.

1:04:00It is an advantage because it's like well if I hadn't a thing to plug in I wouldn't in the death ever since I have

1:04:04nothing to plug in any Well I mean I guess even Apple's monitor is even like you know for the people like you doing

1:04:08what I do with the MacBook Air The Thunderbolt display I bet a lot of people do that set up where you have thunderbolt

1:04:13plugged into your laptop you know so you don't have so we don't have a dock.

1:04:19The stupid doc they have are busy laptops the snap a thing and eight hundred connectors connect

1:04:23but you do it all to Thunderbolts right well now you need like the portable display first that came with the mag they

1:04:29wanted to adapter like used to get that with a display so you could you know attach the charging thingy to the laptops

1:04:35and now also come with a thunderbolt wanted to adapt for what it's worth.

1:04:41Ever since a thunderbolt display came out I have lusted after it and I'm way too cheap to buy one

1:04:46but the thought of not having to have you know I don't know four or five

1:04:50or six cables to plug in every time I plug in my computer when I get home and only have two is just sounds awesome

1:04:57and to bring this down to just one day for reading this right

1:05:01and the power would flow from display into laptop I mean that sounds great.

1:05:06It genuinely genuinely does the problem is that one connector is probably going to crappy because I can tell you how we

1:05:11don't disconnect a laptop a lot

1:05:13but I've done it enough that every time I do it like it does not feel like a robusto you can connect

1:05:17and disconnect there's a thousand times

1:05:19and it'll be fine every time I'm do it I'm like I'm so conscious of like the potential number of connecting

1:05:24disconnected cable has in it because of that little chip in that thing it's like a long step things take me out of the

1:05:28side of your laptop.

1:05:30It's not as you know you feel like I can plug unplug the lighting port in my i Phone forever

1:05:35and I feel fine about it until like maybe the cable will frayed or whatever I'll get a new one.

1:05:39The Thunderbolt thing going to the side of especially a MacBook Air feels pretty perilous

1:05:44and I have little faith that the one point five millimeter thinner version will feel any less perilous unless they

1:05:48inverted and I do like a lightning style connector but I'm not holding my breath.

1:05:52Well I read somewhere maybe this is just somebodies reaction to this

1:05:55but I read somewhere that you know maybe one of the reasons they were read one of the connectors that the new one.

1:06:00Really isn't that great that it does fall out easily or become slightly pulled easily

1:06:05and you know there's really like there's no part of its design it's really high friction

1:06:09or no little locking ball bearings like the lightning has

1:06:11or anything like that so it's I've never felt that honorable things were secure I mean I mostly use use it like for the

1:06:19Internet and if it feels precarious right. But yeah exactly exactly.

1:06:23All right this is a little bit random but I keep meaning to ask you

1:06:28when we were asked on Twitter what's the overcast update. I'm almost in beta.

1:06:35That's basically it which is probably what I said last time but now I'm WAY closer this time.

1:06:39Today I was writing the directory to give you some idea you know making the ad pod casting work more than just search.

1:06:46That's what I'm doing right now. It's getting close. The logging thing is done.

1:06:52You know all that all they can stuff is done. Yeah getting there that's about it. Isn't that interesting right now.

1:07:01That's fair I just don't think we talked about in a while. Let's go to an easy our i Pad sales leveling leveling off.

1:07:08There's been a little bit of chatter about this lately. Yeah. This I wanted to talk about.

1:07:13So there's there was this post by oh boy. Go ahead John. Save mark or please Joey get say thank you so much all right.

1:07:24So he wrote this post which will into in the show notes.

1:07:29Basically saying or suggesting that i Pad sales have or about to be revealed to have leveled off

1:07:36and I agree were linked to it and added his own commentary as well

1:07:40and you know so the theory here is that you know maybe i Pad an overall tablet sales are not doing as they're growing

1:07:47as well as as everyone expected and you know maybe that maybe tablets have been overestimated

1:07:55and maybe maybe the expectations of tablets have been too high.

1:08:00So I want to talk about this because I personally have really had had trouble like making my i Pad useful to me

1:08:07and I've heard so many people who that's not the case for so many people are finding incredibly interesting creative

1:08:14ways to use their i Pad to get other worked on or just bring our Pavin they go on trips and not bring a laptop

1:08:19or whatever else.

1:08:20And I have not had that experience at all I mean

1:08:24and part of that just because the work I do you know being a lot of programming and stuff like that

1:08:28but even even things that aren't programming I find myself

1:08:31when I'm on the i Pad I find myself like saving things for

1:08:35when I go back to my mac because of just be so much faster

1:08:37and easier to do it there you know for me the limitations of I.O.'s work on a phone you know that limitation of how how

1:08:46apps are so incredibly isolated from each other and so you know multitasking is very limited.

1:08:52There is no like you know the document model of I O. S.

1:08:55Where you know you don't have like your files you just have each app

1:08:59and it has its own little silo of data you know all that stuff makes it very hard for me to work the way I want to work

1:09:07and so I have not found I've had to be very useful and in fact I hardly ever use one.

1:09:11I have I have stopped buying every version of it even for developer testing purposes.

1:09:17You know now that I have the retina many

1:09:19and my wife has the i Pad Air I really can't see as buying the next ones that come out either because these are going

1:09:25to be fine for a while. Yeah I'll remind you it sounds like you need an i Pad Pro Fargo right.

1:09:31Well so and so I wonder like you know how how many people just the case for leaks or for me what I've found

1:09:37and this is this is why I think the i Phone one it might make this more interesting.

1:09:42I found that you know there's the things that a phone does well and the i Pad does does most of the things well

1:09:49but the things that if the phone does poorly the i Pad doesn't do a lot of them much better.

1:09:56And the i Pad is worse than the phone and a few major ways number.

1:10:00One it is not always with your phone is always in your pocket

1:10:03or your i Pad you might have it with you in my case I almost never have it with me that doesn't fit in clothing

1:10:10or jacket pockets

1:10:11and I don't carry bags big enough for most of those places I go so you know the phone is always with you

1:10:17and your phone always has a data connection for most people.

1:10:20I Pads Yes you can get them within a connections but it's not the common case I don't think.

1:10:26And even if you have a connection like I feel kind of bad paying twenty bucks a month for the data connection that I

1:10:32hardly ever use but my have had becomes even less useful if I don't have that but it's on

1:10:37and happy about that most people just don't get data connections or data plans for their i Pads

1:10:42and so you know that major difference between Always being with you and always have

1:10:47and always having a data connection that actually makes the i Pad even less useful for me then than it normally is

1:10:55and so I have to wonder like you know I've said before I don't think it's wise to ever bet against a smartphone.

1:11:03I think the smartphone is an amazing ideal and it's like the intersection of the best of so many things

1:11:11and it's so good and so useful

1:11:13and there's so much potential in the smartphone for me if it's a smartphone had a little bigger screen which probably

1:11:20about two in the in the non Apple world. That's old news and they've had big screens for years.

1:11:28I really don't think I'm going to have a use for an i Pad at all even today.

1:11:34If if if my i Pad got stolen today please don't come still

1:11:38but if it ever got stolen today I'm pretty sure I would not replace it. And so but you know it might like my phone.

1:11:47The combination of a phone or computer is so great for me

1:11:49and I'm wondering you know whether whether the i Pad is really necessary long term as a product category

1:11:56and whether it's succeeding long term in the product category or whether it will become.

1:12:00No more of a more of a new narrow niche product as most people realize that a phone

1:12:05and maybe a computer is good enough. So I would like to argue with everything you just said. Cool.

1:12:13So I had an i Pad one I had in i Pad third gens of the first written i Pad

1:12:20and now I have what I like to call the retina Pad Mini which Dr Steven Hackett knots which makes you want to call it

1:12:26that even more. And I got to the retina Pad Mini with L.T.

1:12:31For the first time I'd always had wife I only i Pads and this one I got with L.T.E.

1:12:36I got a horizon retina had many and then right around the time I got it T.

1:12:41Mobile started doing that crazy thing where you can buy a SIM for ten dollars one time

1:12:46and then they'll give you two hundred megs of data for free every single month.

1:12:51And the idea is or I presume the idea is that it's a gateway drug to get you to pay T. Mobile for data.

1:12:58Well what I found is the combination of moving from big i Pad to i Pad Mini as paired with this team mobile plan that

1:13:09really quite honestly gives me enough data for pretty much any usage I would want away from a wife a hot spot like a

1:13:15friend's house or family member's house or at home or work.

1:13:20The combination of having a healthy i Pad with just a little bit of data every single month

1:13:25and having it be an i Pad Mini made me fall in love with this i Pad Mini so much more than I did my prior i Pads which

1:13:35I kind of went in and out of love with. I would use them a lot then I would use them at all. But I'm not at all.

1:13:41And I love my i Pad Mini and I wonder if I wonder if the by virtue of it having L.T.E.

1:13:52and Either if I could tether against my i Phone which I can't because I'm still in the eight hundred to unlimited plan

1:13:58or if I had.

1:14:00A plan wherein I could share my data with my i Pad for very little extra per month

1:14:05or you know any of these combinations or the T.

1:14:08Mobile thing that I've done makes me absolutely adore my i Pad And generally speaking

1:14:12when I travel I don't bring a computer with me unless I'm travelling for work

1:14:19and in fact we were travelling all of last week

1:14:22and the only reason I had a computer with me was because I had to record the podcast while it while we were on the road

1:14:28and if it wasn't for that I would have let the computer at home.

1:14:31So it's funny because everything you just said it makes sense to me

1:14:35but I like my i Pad for all the reasons you don't like your i Pad

1:14:41and I John what do you think about this I think the thing that's holding the i Pad back is two aspects one is that as I

1:14:49said in past shows I was talking about the i Pad Pro If the i Pad wants to take over more of the functionality

1:14:55currently occupied by a P.C.

1:14:56That has to expand its ability to do the things that P.C.'s can do in some vague yet unspecified way possibly having a

1:15:04larger screen possibly better multitasking and possibly better.

1:15:07Like you imagine better interact all his communication all the things we discussed right so that is like OK walking

1:15:13into a that well the P.C. Market is not as big of the phone market for market's growing P.C.

1:15:17Market I think is there's growing slowly or possibly shrinking.

1:15:21So say the i Pad takes over some portion that that's still to get to the kind of growth that people are expecting from

1:15:28it like that still like gangbusters

1:15:29but that's one that's one area where it probably has to move if it wants to get some growth in the other areas it's got

1:15:35to come way way down in price because that's what it's competing against is psychologically if not in actuality it's

1:15:42competing against cell phones which are free

1:15:45and they're not free like all they cost thousands of dollars a year for your cell phone plans an i Phone is incredibly

1:15:49expensive.

1:15:50All that is true

1:15:51but psychologically speaking cell phones are practically free because most people in first world countries feel like

1:15:57they need to have a cell phone and eventually all cell phones will.

1:16:00What we currently call smart phones

1:16:01and it's like you know it's not for you because a lot of money the people who like what I have to have a phone. Right.

1:16:08The tablet is competing against nothing like that.

1:16:11If you don't buy a tablet you will just you will spend zero because like you know would you say oh you know what I'm

1:16:17going to replace my phone with a tablet.

1:16:19Well that's a fact the phablet phenomenon right but but yeah

1:16:23but there are other competing answers like they consider a phone is like I have to pay for that that's a sunk cost

1:16:29and you know that's basically free and now you tell me how to pay more

1:16:31and like the thing is if they have some task they need to do that is just not convenient or possible to do

1:16:37and even a very large phone their choice is a P.C. or A tablet and P.C.

1:16:42There are traditionally more expensive but tablets especially Apple tablets are still pretty darn expensive.

1:16:47If Apple could like say say the i Pad Mini Retina i bet me with ninety nine dollars just some fantasy scenario there.

1:16:54There's no doubt that that will move the needle on sales

1:16:57and even if you know you think well I'm not sure how I'm going to use this

1:17:01and like I'm not I'm not sure how that would shake out

1:17:03but I just think like the idea that every single home that has a smartphone would also have an i Pad just hanging

1:17:10around just to be that thing like the equip the modern the future world equivalent of a magazine under skin to sit on a

1:17:16couch and read a magazine we're not going to read a magazine you're going to look at web pages on your i Pad

1:17:20or I'm just going to go up to my room and watch some Netflix or or stream something from my D.V.R.

1:17:25or Whatever like the idea that just having a flat screen even if I never leave the house just as a convenient thing to

1:17:30have around the house and I think the uses of it are fine but

1:17:33when it cost seven hundred dollars you're like do I need to do a few one of those usual things seven hundred dollars

1:17:38worth no I don't even five hundred dollars I got you know and I think of so a lot more than if they go down in price

1:17:44and you know I guess the three things the final thing is that many people have mentioned they're just a little bit too.

1:17:50There's a little bit too good so far I know so many people who are using i Pad ones and see no reason to upgrade.

1:17:55That is the pregnant and the company of the phone where there's many reasons upgrade because of the subsidies

1:17:59and all the other things. We're never like it's tough you know.

1:18:02Personally I don't feel like they should because that's why I spent five hundred dollars

1:18:04and I've had I'm keeping it for years and the second thing is well you know I guess unless game stop working

1:18:11or they don't care than on i OS seven like I guess they do kind of cycle down to the kids and let them use it

1:18:16but it's just they are incredibly long lasting

1:18:19and I mean surprisingly durable for a five hundred dollar piece of glass you think of all the like destroyed by now.

1:18:24But I've seen so many go through the grubby paws of kids

1:18:27and just they survive in a home environment those things survive for a long period of time

1:18:32and so if there were ninety nine dollars you'd like every year to go get a new one of these flat things because what we

1:18:37used to like you know it's so used to like read stuff

1:18:40and read the you know read web pages better than reading it on my phone I want gramophones battery

1:18:44and I used to watch a video this is a little bit bigger screen and if you can get the price way down

1:18:49and if you get a little bit more capable that will make sure there's an i Pad in everybody's home

1:18:54and that would also make sure that when people go on trips like maybe I don't need to buy a laptop

1:18:59and I can get into the P.C.

1:19:00Market by just saying I can take this with me because I can do more or less everything I need to do

1:19:03and you would say what it when you reach your limit.

1:19:06Can developers drivetrain do Probably not

1:19:08but can you know you keep going down can people do regular word processing work

1:19:12but still pretty annoying like that's where the i Pad programs in so there's not like Apple needs to like oh you need

1:19:17to cite or I present a loss right now but I think just the natural if you look at the Apple T.V.

1:19:22It took a while for the Apple T.V. To get down to ninety nine dollars.

1:19:26The i Pad It's going to take even longer because that screen is tough to really push down much farther

1:19:30but give it five or seven years and

1:19:34when Apple has a tablet things that are for that span the same range as i Pods do I think there is a legitimate reason

1:19:41for every house that has a smartphone to have a tablet device

1:19:45and if Apple can get its price point down it could be that device so I think that's where the growth potential is for

1:19:48tablets. Yeah that makes sense. The thing that I think about is what is what is really holding the i Pad especially.

1:20:00But the i Phone and I just I was in general what's what's holding it back

1:20:04and you know we've talked in the past around this time last year about what's the low hanging fruit for I.O.'s

1:20:11and I guess maybe low hanging fruit is a poor way of phrasing it but what's the thing that bothers everyone the most

1:20:19and you know copy paste is the seminal example from years back that it infuriated everyone to not have copy paste.

1:20:28Obviously that had to show up quickly. Well interrupt communication.

1:20:32I feel like we're getting to the point that we're really going to need to crap or get off the pot

1:20:36or apples really you need to I mean is this the I don't want to get into a prediction episode

1:20:41but is this the time is that enough to make I.O.'s a little bit more powerful era of communication itself is it's oh

1:20:53it's a phrase with

1:20:53or around the concept around that we think first of all we all assume that I was eight will improve this somehow

1:21:01because there's a lot of you can see that there's a lot of the groundwork already laid in six

1:21:05and seven for this you have things like remote view controllers there's a few activity system you can you can tell that

1:21:10like they have theirs.

1:21:11They're making they're taking steps towards allowing this

1:21:15but the problem is that interpretation itself does not really solve the problem.

1:21:23It makes some things a little bit better.

1:21:26He says you know suppose I us does something very similar to the contract you're intense on minutes for an Android

1:21:33which is what most developers are asking them to do.

1:21:36Myself included I think they'll be great

1:21:37but I think a big part of the problem is the document model of the file system model.

1:21:45You know how how you where you store your data how you access your stored data how you know where things are are

1:21:52divided and you know where things are not accessible from and I think that you know there's.

1:22:00There's all the simplicity of these devices of not having to manage your files not have to figure out where things are

1:22:05not not having to you know go to your parents' house and see everything on the desktop

1:22:09and that they're part of his quote full because they're out of spaces for their icons you know you have one of those

1:22:15problems but that the amount of power that removes from usage is pretty dramatic

1:22:21and I think that more than anything is what limits. I went from being used in more productivity type roles.

1:22:28Apple Apple still holding the line on that and I think most people agree with the sentiment.

1:22:36And we just hope it like well presumably Apple has thought of this

1:22:41and has some solution like a big salad to show its file system

1:22:44and they just want to reproduce all the same problems like yeah that would solve it for geeks right.

1:22:48But a modular sandbox I guess but for everybody else it's like well siloed per app is simple

1:22:55but it has all these problems and we're all hoping for a solution that does not give up all the simplicity

1:23:01and go all the way back to destroy access to the file system again if only for security concerns.

1:23:06But has the benefits of being able to like you know what works

1:23:10and even normal people seem to grasp Dropbox because Dropbox essentially took the file system problem

1:23:15and narrowed it down to a single place kind of like the desktop which was the old place that everyone you mentioned

1:23:21that was the one place that people felt comfortable just put everything into stop

1:23:24and then what people do is like well I have all my crap on my desktop and that's the one place I know how to find

1:23:29and I make folders on my desktop for some projects and it's like it's like training wheels for the real file system

1:23:34and Dropbox is like that as well

1:23:35and it's like it's the same as the file system is just narrative that you drop out because of a desktop on start making

1:23:41folders in a Dropbox like the person if I start making folders I'd start with lots of stuff

1:23:45and they start organizing things

1:23:46and like you just want to say just a little bit farther like the whole file system is your oyster.

1:23:50It's not just the new folder one you can fold it anywhere under seventeen. So I I hope.

1:24:00It Apple doesn't give up but at a certain point like it's kind of like that you know that they give up

1:24:05and use tables C.S.S.

1:24:06Joke site from years ago is like at a certain point like Well Apple you've been thinking about this for years

1:24:11and if you really can't think of something that's better at a certain point you need to just like say we failed in our

1:24:17ability to give you something that's both simpler and equally powerful or close to as powerful

1:24:21and just give us back to forgive piles of them

1:24:23and I do not want them to do that I think that would be not only an admission of failure

1:24:27but an actual failure so I really keep hoping that they come up with some scheme that has the security benefits of

1:24:34sandboxing

1:24:36but that lets applications easily work multiple applications work on the same document I mean that's all part of my

1:24:41whole day cloudy i Pad provision is the idea of using multiple applications to make a sort of composite document

1:24:47or a composite or work on a project that has some images and some text files and some this

1:24:52and some that like like you would do on your mac

1:24:54when you're doing any sort of remotely complicated project without it being you know I just do everything in one app

1:25:01like even X.

1:25:01Goes on a direction Xcode is like yes it's a whole bunch of different things you've got images you've got header files

1:25:08you've got source code you and various builder documents you've got all the stuff

1:25:12but like it's all in Xcode I guess I guess some of the energetic ones that was the embedded image editor next code will

1:25:16know they've really just given up you think it is part seven right to the i Pad Pro

1:25:22and it's like hey you don't need to want to separate out all your stuff in one place.

1:25:26Does it seem like the i Pad app library is stagnating because it seems that way to me

1:25:34but because I'm not that into using my i Pad that could just be like you know because I used to be

1:25:38but it has been updated

1:25:39but whatever like what do you mean by that like what kind of apps you talking about specifically.

1:25:44It seems to me that you know again anecdotally So whatever this is worth I'm not seeing a lot of i Pad apps come out

1:25:53anymore that are interesting or exciting and a lot of the previously good apps.

1:26:00Still either have melted Iowa seven and Sir very dated

1:26:04or are just you know on really slow update cycles of the seemingly abandoned

1:26:08or some of them actually have been abandoned some of them have have been updated made worse.

1:26:13Like it seems like the i Pad was a priority for after filters for about two and a half years and now it's just not.

1:26:20And I can point to lots of you know if if this is the case beyond just what I'm seeing.

1:26:26I can think of lots of reasons why that might be the case.

1:26:30You know the I'm doing to write a blog post for this but I keep trying to do it

1:26:35but you know one of the biggest would be the App Store pricing model and the top list model

1:26:42and how that encourages the race to the bottom in pricing and very low prices made up of very large volume.

1:26:47All of that depends on there being very large volume

1:26:52but if the i Pad is not being used that much to buy a bunch of apps

1:26:55and if Instead most of them are being used to watch videos and browse the web

1:26:59and we know they don't sell nearly as well as i Phones do already. Maybe that's a big problem.

1:27:06I mean it's certainly it seems to me like maybe like to me one of the reasons why I'm not using the i Pad is because

1:27:13like the Twitter app is better on my phone. The I.R.S.

1:27:15Has acted better on my phone like half of things I do on on a my US devices like the i Phone apps I have an i Phone are

1:27:24better than any I can find on the i Pad is it just me

1:27:27or is this a broader thing I think the the sales numbers definitely aren't in focus the way more i Phones But I think

1:27:33there's a bifurcation of applications in the like in the beginning it was like a labyrinth of you know make all the

1:27:37Arabs everywhere

1:27:37and then eventually people learned which apps are better suited to its environment so to give an example these days of

1:27:43a new game comes out I don't have fear that there's not going to be an i Pad version

1:27:47and if there's anything like anything that has a do with like reading experience a magazine app a comic reader

1:27:53or something for watching video there's no i'm there's no concern that it's not going to have an i Pad version

1:27:59or even that.

1:28:00I think like a controlling other like the Tivo application I'm not concerned that's not going to anything is not sort

1:28:05of on the go.

1:28:06Because on the go style apps like Twitter clients

1:28:08or stuff like that I don't expect to find them on the I beg of those who like clearly focused on the phone anything

1:28:12that there's clearly something you want to use like a mobile type application that's going to be phone first

1:28:18or phone only whereas any application that benefits from having a larger screen that's going to be i Pad only your i

1:28:24Pad first and so I definitely do that see that split

1:28:27and I think I have the same frustration it's like well I know most of the time I'm not I'm not reading Twitter on my i

1:28:33Pad

1:28:34but I would like to have a universal version of whatever my favorite for a client as a matter of fact I do because he's

1:28:38terrific but those type of applications like glass board for example there's no i Pad version of that

1:28:44and it frustrates me I kind of make sense.

1:28:47But on the other hand if it's like a mobile on the go up but it's like when I'm on my i Pad I have to run that two X.

1:28:53Thing I just feel bad so I just think it's kind of the application splitting and going to where they need to go

1:28:58and unfortunately some of that split is if you need X.

1:29:01Number of sales to be profitable forget the i Pad because of the many i Pads out there

1:29:05but I think a lot of it is just appropriateness of screen size.

1:29:09Well and to answer your question Marco going to kind of ask myself

1:29:13and then I answered it with a different question which is what have I cited about what I'm going to fight about on the

1:29:18i Pad lately

1:29:19and I'm really excited that the one password I was seven update just came out that's universal waiting with bated

1:29:27breath for tweet but update for i OS seven and fantastic of two came out and really pumped about that. That's about it.

1:29:37I mean threes came out of the i Pad I was excited about that too

1:29:39but you see I'm saying like to your point there's not a lot that's been brand new that is happened on the i Pad

1:29:46fantastic I was a good example though that often really really really excited about that's happened months if not

1:29:54around a year now. Well the game's like if you're into playing games I mean there's a pretty pretty regular.

1:30:00Cycle of exciting new games that are available for the i Pad they come out I mean it's not you know like if there are

1:30:07TONS of the games to come out most of the graphics on the good games like the current ones like Monument Valley

1:30:11and before that was three years and then you had things like the room

1:30:15and you're walking like there's always lots of great software out there.

1:30:19Games that take advantage of large screen

1:30:21but I think a lot of the a lot of the i Pad the thing it was like the thing you have around the house.

1:30:25Yeah it's going to be a video app and threw it through are you going to consume stuff

1:30:28or it's going to be a comic reader through it you're going to get spending continual stream of money on comics I mean

1:30:32just as Marlen like is excited that the new version of comics ology I know

1:30:36but this is like it's a fixture it becomes part of that appliance

1:30:39and it's an appliance to reach you funnel money so it's not like there's not money to be made there because if you have

1:30:45that app and use it to buy things

1:30:46or even just magazine subscriptions it's it's a continual faucet of money versus just like oh I can sell you one out

1:30:53for for one lucky it's like you know you'll spend fifty one hundred dollars a month on comics through this one app that

1:30:59we will continually updating develop but it's not exciting as I've been in amazing new apps coming out

1:31:04but there is I think less of that on the phone with exception possibly of music streaming services that you pay a

1:31:09subscription for the phone is less of a venue for I'm going to download this one app

1:31:14and you know the Apple be updated but for the next year or two years

1:31:17or my entire life will continue to funnel money through this application because the way I get my video my comics

1:31:23or my games or whatever.

1:31:26Yeah I think a lot of it also depends on you know for any whatever app you're you're talking about like how hard is it

1:31:31how much work is it to maintain a separate i Pad interface or separate i Pad app and tirelessly

1:31:37and for certain types of things like you know video type apps it's a lot less work than something like a word processor

1:31:44would be like games it's it's you know some work in the interface layout and stuff

1:31:50but for the most part you're getting that fairly easily.

1:31:54There's you know there's all these all these productivity apps that's it's a lot more work like.

1:32:00Like you know I'm not even making overcast for i Pad when I launch and you know maybe I'll add it later

1:32:04but I'm launching without any I've had enough. Even though I could I could just say in the in the people list.

1:32:09Yeah we're going to pad sure and just let the interface scale itself up but it would look terrible.

1:32:15I'd rather not do that and so I'm not doing that you know. I'd rather do it well or not at all.

1:32:22So when I met she was not at all and maybe all dressed well later but I wonder how

1:32:28and for how many developers how many developers are going to make that call and say you know what.

1:32:32It's probably not worth it like almost every other pod cast out on the store that's popular

1:32:36and all has it has a dedicated i Pad version because all of them are written like two to three years ago

1:32:41when that was a thing you all did like every one of you had to have an i Pad version two

1:32:45or three years ago it was like the hotness.

1:32:48But now for so many times of that

1:32:50and a lot of apps are still fine i Pad things things are you know you had games probably fine you know as as you know

1:32:56as well as

1:32:57and I was game could be doing fine you know so they're probably fun reading apps things like comics ology reading after

1:33:05are fine because reading is substantially better on the i Pad

1:33:08but other kinds of things utilities you know things like that it's just like we mentioned word processors like things

1:33:16like comic ology and like Microsoft Word

1:33:19or whatever like there's no there's no i Phone version of the office up so there are not even look no I don't think so.

1:33:25Well I do in college and I don't know that universally the

1:33:28but really who want to try to read comics on their phone screen like there are certain applications where the big

1:33:31screen is not only desirable

1:33:33but it's like I'm not going to bother Macon like even for games depending on what your interest is sometimes the games

1:33:39just don't make sense on the phone.

1:33:40I mean obviously games are highly motivated to get on the platform that has you know more users

1:33:44but there are classes applications I think kind of like office style applications

1:33:48and stuff like that it doesn't make sense to make a phone version because you have a certain U.I. In mind that U.I.

1:33:54Only works at minimum on the i Pad Mini like it's just not feasible. Why even bother on the phone.

1:34:00And I think the reverse is also true for things like like yours through the park that maybe you'll find out you're

1:34:06mistaken

1:34:06but it's like you are like why even bother who's carrying around their i Pad to listen to podcasts while they walk

1:34:10their dogs right that's not that's not a scenario you have in mind. Oh believe me I'm going to hear from all of them.

1:34:15Oh you will you will.

1:34:16It could be that like there is an actual usage scenario where having an i Pad version is useful

1:34:22and men might not just be those people made it back when it was the thing to do. You'll find out I guess with feedback.

1:34:26But all I can think of one what if I'm at home and I want to broadcast the airplane or something like that

1:34:32and I don't want to use my phone for it for whatever reason doesn't matter why.

1:34:36Like I'm at home

1:34:37and I want to beam to something else over here play I would reach for my i Pad before I reach for my phone.

1:34:43No I mean you could just run the i Phone version two acts like a dual class board you know like not like you're being

1:34:47prevented from a like what is it about PA to get application that you would want a you know a specific i Pad specific

1:34:54version like for POD guess that you're not spending your time manipulating the you why are you spending it on to the

1:34:59screen turned off.

1:35:00You know listening sure

1:35:02but I going to want something that looks good on the i Pad So to Marco's point yes I can absolutely get away with a two

1:35:08X.

1:35:09Version of the I of the i Phone version of overcast hypothetically but I wouldn't want to it

1:35:14and I wouldn't be happy about it

1:35:15and that may make me come back to my i Phone which granted this is the huge first world problem

1:35:21but nevertheless I can absolutely tell you that if I could listen to podcasts on my i Pad I would in a lot of cases you

1:35:29know I mentioned Twitter apps if or and like I was kind of speaking to the general case right.

1:35:34Twitter apps and you're much more popular when you're on the go and you're buying your phones right

1:35:37but I do read Twitter actually a lot from my i Pad mostly because what I'm doing

1:35:42when I'm reading Twitter is following links and when I find a link.

1:35:44Oh all the sun umbrellas in the web

1:35:46and I would much rather browse a web page you know not get the crazy i Phone mobile version if they have some crappy i

1:35:51Phone no version and be just at the much bigger screen too to read things you know

1:35:56or like even if I'm going to Instapaper them from the Twitter of Asians.

1:36:00At browsing like it's not the tweets themselves that our union i Pad screen to see a tweet tweet look fine and i Pod

1:36:05but most of the time

1:36:07when I'm using Twitter for following links that people put in is kind of you know my my undermanned replacement for

1:36:13R.S.S.

1:36:13and Yeah I want to read those links on the big screen or want to watch those videos

1:36:17and some links to new Godzilla trailer.

1:36:19I'm much happier to watch that Godzilla trailer on my i Pad than to try to you know look at the tiny thing on my i Pod

1:36:26Touch and have to you know turn off the rotation lock so I could rotate it so the images and microscopic

1:36:31and you know how much does this change if there's a five inch phone it will say yeah I guess I mean none of us have use

1:36:38the five inch shown right so we don't know like does it make a difference does it doesn't make a significant difference

1:36:43there all the sudden I feel comfortable watching the Godzilla trailer do I still wish I had it I'm out to have like a

1:36:48wall find out if people are using Android phones now already know the answer for themselves

1:36:52but for the people in the Apple camp you know with prism we get these phones will find out how much it really makes a

1:36:58difference in practice.

1:36:59See I think it'll make a big difference for non power users for I don't want to call them normal people

1:37:06but non geeks and I can't cite a specific example but I know a lot of like friends

1:37:12and family who either have been saying oh man I really hope there's a bigger i Phone or i left i O.

1:37:19West speaker I left the i Phone because it never got bigger and I wanted something bigger.

1:37:24Now some of these people carry phablet switch.

1:37:26Personally I think look ridiculous and I would not want to try to stuff in a pant pocket but that's just me.

1:37:33And typically everything I poop who I end up coming around and liking like Apple like Macs like i Phones like B.M.W.

1:37:40Etc etc But anyone who recommended all these things to you

1:37:43and whatever forty minutes I think Marco you're right that for a lot of people having a much bigger phone will prevent

1:37:53what will prevent the need for an i Pad Although with that said I wonder I think John was right.

1:38:00I'm saying having a bigger screen

1:38:02and not hitting the mobile version of websites is really really refreshing because in my experience a lot of times if

1:38:09there's a responsive site it will either be considerably better at i Pad sizes

1:38:16or the i Pad will to see the full bore desktop version and I'm curious to see if a five inch

1:38:23or maybe even six inch i Phone comes out any this year.

1:38:28What will happen with responsive sites will they just stretch the current four was a four point three inch version of

1:38:36their site a little bit.

1:38:37Will that be a different breakpoint and silly as that sounds I think I would make a big difference to me.

1:38:43I think everything is coming up i Pad progun because this whole the larger phone what it does is it pushes it pushes

1:38:48the i Pad to be like OK differentiate yourself now.

1:38:51Like now the difference in size between the mini and whatever Phone Apple comes out but that gap is narrowed.

1:38:56What is it that you're good at i Pad like well I've got a bigger screen like well how much bigger like again the people

1:39:02want to read comics ology on their bigger phone you know maybe not

1:39:04but maybe it encroaches starts to encroach on something that people thought they had many foreign like well I can

1:39:09actually get away with that on my things I like to do to make a spot for itself

1:39:13and then in between area that you know there are those are going by the find a home between the phone

1:39:18and the laptop maybe I think they need to move upscale and to continue to encroach on P.C.

1:39:23Territory and to take things away from there and to go with bigger screens or you know maybe the Mini get scaled up

1:39:31and the other one becomes the pro

1:39:33and get even bigger like that I think that's inevitable with phones getting larger I may get a different to how large

1:39:40they get ever get just a little bit larger than not a big deal

1:39:42but some of these phones that I see it's like is that a phone or is that an i Pad Mini it really hits a really close

1:39:48and at that point what place is there for an i Pad Mini your life all it is is a slightly larger phone that doesn't

1:39:53work as a phone

1:39:54and so then if you're going to get something at all it's going to be like What is this what is a tablet uniquely good.

1:39:59It's unique.

1:40:00We good at reading magazines I don't want to read a magazine on my phone with a still too small to neatly go to reading

1:40:04comics in really good having video because I don't want to watch a video on this little tiny thing like

1:40:08and you know it's an equally good it being a multifunction word processor e-mail handling out blah blah blah with an

1:40:15expandable keyboard and it becomes a mix of service

1:40:17and like whatever like I feel like there's a potential for it to be pushed up market kind of in terms of capability

1:40:23and size.

1:40:24I'm not arguing that the i Pad is going to go away or that it's bad

1:40:28and everything you know my position which I think you agree with because I think you said this is that it's just going

1:40:35to you know there are there are things the i Pad is better at.

1:40:39But you know it's it's no longer going to be assumed that everyone who has the means to buy an i Pad should buy one.

1:40:47You know that's that's kind of been the assumption like if you're in that if you're into this kind of stuff at all

1:40:52and you have enough money to afford an i Pad You should buy an i Pad I think it'll be like I said I think it'll be more

1:40:57assumed as we go on because it'll just as the price comes down every house will if you have a smart phone always assume

1:41:02you also have a tablet to do the things you do on top of the big tablet not a little one.

1:41:07Yeah and I do think that your you know your positioning it as like the thing you have in your home

1:41:14and just keep around the house that I think it has a better future for then then being traveling particularly devices

1:41:23say I couldn't disagree with you more but I think we're both right is the thing.

1:41:28It depends on what you're after

1:41:29and typically if I'm on the road I just want to browse Twitter like John was saying catch up on R.S.S.

1:41:35Do you know the things that people always say are constant consumption and that's why I need one I'm on the road

1:41:40and I prefer to do that on an i Pad And so I think it would be great I would continue to have an i Pad for travel if

1:41:48for no other reason.

1:41:50People do want to leave their laptops at home like there still is that people want to whether they are ready to

1:41:54or not I don't know but like I know I like going places with just my i Pad and in many cases I can pay.

1:42:00But often there is a desire to do that.

1:42:02It's just a question of does the i Pad get filled I did it live up to the way you want to use it

1:42:08and sometimes it doesn't and it doesn't I think

1:42:10and if you start the push up market a little bit people still want to bring their full fledged laptop especially if

1:42:14it's there like work laptop or they associate it with work

1:42:17but they want to have you know a powerful tablet with them so I think that the distinction of like you know this idea

1:42:24of people that don't or don't bring their laptops with them.

1:42:27There's two sides of this one is that if it's their work laptop and you know it's not like there are self-employed or

1:42:34or you know there are seven play

1:42:35but they hate themselves like a lot of people don't want to bring their work with them because they don't like their

1:42:39work and that's fine

1:42:40and so the work laptop has this this emotional baggage of being your work that you know you're on vacation you know

1:42:48want to bring this.

1:42:49But yes that's one side

1:42:51and you know you never get over that eventually you have a work tablet if this goes the way that everyone thinks it

1:42:55will and you want to bring that either to your work tablet.

1:42:58So whatever that that I think we can safely disregard it as a thing because you know eventually that will emerge

1:43:04but the other side of it is people people who say I don't want to bring this whole effort with me laptops in the last

1:43:11couple years have gotten so much thinner and lighter and smaller and battery life is going through the roof.

1:43:17Their laptops are getting so awesome that a lot of people who say that they you know they have like a two

1:43:23or three year old laptop.

1:43:24Well it turns out modern laptops are a lot better than that you know the last few years have been amazing

1:43:29and laptops and if it half of the rumors are true about what Apple's lineup is going to have in the laptops

1:43:34and in the near future.

1:43:35It's going to be even better like they're talking about this supposed twelve inch retina air that might not even have

1:43:41fans and maybe even an ARM chip who knows.

1:43:46Like laptops are really really good

1:43:50and you know there's a reason why laptops have taken over the world as like the computer of choice for almost everybody

1:43:55who can make that choice. Labs are awesome and.

1:44:00They keep getting more and more

1:44:01and more often they keep getting smaller thinner lighter better battery life better displays everything about and

1:44:06and the O. S. Is are you know well. Windows.

1:44:10Now you know you're getting to this it's not just the size

1:44:12and everything it's like the reason people feel like I don't want to be my laptop isn't just because my working it

1:44:17isn't just because it's heavier because I have an old laptop it's also because the experience of using an i Pad because

1:44:22it runs I.O.'s and it's you know so simplified is more relaxing for you know vacation time atmosphere

1:44:29and again that gap could narrow as well

1:44:30and that's what Apple's trying to do they're trying to simplify Makower ten the trying to shave off the edges that you

1:44:35know like these things are on a collision course

1:44:38but it's still debatable which one will get to the critical point first especially with pricing because of the tablet

1:44:44can be ninety nine bucks an hour both best MacBook Air is still you know five ninety nine in some distant future.

1:44:51The tablets are going to win just based on price. So used to be definitely a size thing.

1:44:57I don't be lugging this thing with me as the size issue becomes less than you get on OK now it's down to price now it's

1:45:03down to a simplicity and simplicity that the P.C.

1:45:08Has a fighting chance if you know the look at my order because I was trying to do with Windows eight an Apple trying to

1:45:13simplify it so us on the price front I don't know maybe that's the closer I was going to say I will give the edge to

1:45:20the tablet another to think about especially if they go to an ARM based air that might be a reasonably fair fight to

1:45:25get in the end what's the difference between an ARM based MacBook Air and a Microsoft Surface

1:45:31and i Pad with a keyboard in terms of pricing like I could be close to the too close to call this race I mean the funny

1:45:37thing is if you think about you know what people want out of a quote i Pad Pro You know most people who try to get

1:45:43productivity work on our i Pads either use

1:45:45or at some point have tried keyboards for their i Pads so that you think about OK what do you do with keyboard if

1:45:50you've ever used a keyboard

1:45:51and i Pad you realize how much the pointing device situation sucks because if they keep using the keyboard on the

1:45:57bottom and reaching a protective screen to you know move things around. And that sucks you know.

1:46:02I seems like what people want out of an i Pad Pro is to make it more like a laptop

1:46:06and what if this twelve inch thing is pretty much the i Pad air's hardware with a keyboard running a ported version of

1:46:14a stat that would solve multitasking it would solve docket management it would solve all you know it would solve all of

1:46:20the quote productivity needs

1:46:21but it wouldn't solve solve like with people like people don't like oh it's ten compared to Iowa it's like more

1:46:26relaxing to use I was like trying try no geeks do

1:46:30but you know like it's the appeal of tablets is a broad ranging interest not just the physical parts of it it's also

1:46:38the software part same software parts of are complaining again that like the limitations like that's the line Apple is

1:46:43trying to walk how do I make the i Pad more capable of making a crappier How do I make the mac less annoying to use

1:46:50without removing its capabilities.

1:46:52Yeah I feel like I'm back to what John is then saying which is part of the reason I did so laptop is because it's old

1:46:59and heavy and doesn't have a great battery but partly because for the things I do

1:47:04when I'm traveling which is basically just catch up on Twitter and R.S.S. and Email and so on.

1:47:09I'll just bring the i Pad And maybe if I'm feeling really exotic I'll bring my apple Bluetooth keyboard

1:47:15and throw it in a suitcase and use it in situations where I'm sitting down at the desk in the hotel or whatever

1:47:22and cranking out a few emails

1:47:23but I'd much prefer that over a small mac because I find using I was more enjoyable in that situation

1:47:34and I will say time itself as we also forgot the the input method like Marco mention the terrible keyboard support

1:47:40and I was it really is Graham special like cursor control and really doing to control a touch is also Graham

1:47:45but for all other applications like people like being able to touch the screen

1:47:50and move stuff around so you're using I hear you're using Apple or Google Maps to do now when you're on your i Pad

1:47:56and you want to move the thing around like this is direct maybe elation is part of the real.

1:48:00Sation you're not swiping on a track pad your just can touch the screen and again Apple can do something you can

1:48:05but you can make some kind of convertible you know book air the keyboard folder on the back on it

1:48:11and then you can touch the screen and like there are there are ways out of this

1:48:13but then if I had to use an echo I stand with touch and blah blah.

1:48:16The sort of the attractiveness

1:48:18and the relaxation factor of the i Pad is it's about the whole product about the interaction it's about the size about

1:48:25the O.

1:48:26Us about the simplicity it's about the applications about the history that the lack of baggage like there is a lot to

1:48:32it in the same way that there's a lot to what's stopping it from being a P.C.

1:48:36Replacement a huge a laundry list of things there as well.

1:48:40It's not just one thing

1:48:41and so it's difficult to sort of it's difficult to say who is going to be able to make the moves the best

1:48:48and the fastest.

1:48:49Like if we fast forward seven years what is the in terms of like how many tablets are soldiers

1:48:55and army pc's are sold one of those ratios look like. Like eighty percent tablets and twenty percent P.C.

1:49:00Is it fifty fifty that will know who got to the sweet spot first by looking at those ratios and you know decade or two.

1:49:10I mean I think it's going to end of shaking out with basically.

1:49:15I suspect we're going to see the category which ironically Microsoft started with you know these these are pretty much

1:49:23like a laptop tablets the tablets that you know are basically just really small laptops running you know laptop type O.

1:49:32S. As letter type software. Whether to convert or not I don't think is that relevant.

1:49:37I think we're going to see the market split as it matures into you know phones are going to keep getting bigger until

1:49:44they're all pretty much as big as they can be and still fit in most people's pockets.

1:49:47So we'll have these big phones that were cut out a lot of the tablet used use cases are a lot of the tablet rationality

1:49:54at least them are going to have the you know tablet for consumption people who like things like.

1:50:00Big screens are who need to draw on them or do you do things that that most people could do on a phone

1:50:05or better on on something with a bigger screen and those might be used at home a lot of whatever

1:50:10and then we're going to have people who want to do productivity type tasks who are really going to want these laptop

1:50:17what's like the surface type things

1:50:20and maybe that's it the twelve inch thing is you know that kind of thing I think that's going to be it's going to split

1:50:25into the more casual

1:50:27or you know non-traditional productivity use cases will keep will keep the current tablet form factor as like their

1:50:36best thing where they are but they run best

1:50:38but I think people who keep trying to like put their i Pads in these big folio cases and attach a keyboard a bottom

1:50:44and you know all these kind of like i Pad bolt ons trying to make it more like a computer.

1:50:48I think we're going to see that usage merge into a really compact laptops that whether they run it you know

1:50:55when they were on Intel chips or not when they were on I was ten.

1:50:58I'm guessing it would be really small on top of running us ten

1:51:01or Windows eight like you know really small computers running regular P.C.

1:51:05Operating systems with with tablet like hardware but with a keyboard with touch screens.

1:51:11No well maybe touching doctrinally

1:51:13but probably not the problem is probably just what my talking about it is really like an i Pad Air hardware running an

1:51:20arm port of a West has that early on that I really think that the productivity use is going to be so much better on

1:51:26that just a laptop.

1:51:28I mean that's not that's not a tab like I me

1:51:31and my girls are taking the ball on this one because they're they're trying to do the thing we're describing

1:51:35and not doing well at it for a variety of reasons not all of which have to do with the design

1:51:39or probably a lot of them are just like market timing and issues with their Wes and all sorts of other issues

1:51:43but they're basically being the Sega CD of this generation.

1:51:47They haven't they bottom line is they haven't figured out to ignore all the Sauber ignore all the market things in the

1:51:52world timings they just haven't figured out the hardware like kickstand floppy keyboard hinge no hints like I mean

1:51:59everything.

1:52:00It's like an eleven inch MacBook Air does all those things better in terms of you know if it's got the stiff hinge like

1:52:05that's why keeping it.

1:52:06Give you a stiff pinch a keyboard that folds all the way on the on the back so and then a touch screen and then a NO S.

1:52:12That you can actually use with touch like those are the ingredients they're kind of missing so far

1:52:16and I think Microsoft will keep trying with surface.

1:52:18Hopefully they will eventually find the correct combination of physical attributes

1:52:24and then who knows if they'll ever get the timing right or their software right.

1:52:28But Apple there is still an opportunity for Apple to figure that out before them if they decide to let us all be

1:52:33watching for this you know this twelve inch reading there's a just is just another error that happens to be a different

1:52:38size or they're going to try to do something special there.

1:52:42I think Apple does not have an appetite to try to make a hybrid device of the type that I described in many many years

1:52:49ago in a back page of common Macworld I think I was saying do a Lois and certainly Apple's not going to do that

1:52:55but I'm not sure they're even trying to find a solution I think they're happy to allow things to evolve independently

1:53:01and just let them duke it out in the market.

1:53:04Yeah I don't know I am more skeptical that I think it's really just like you know in the same way that that phone is

1:53:11getting larger screens you know will eat a lot of the tablet use from the bottom.

1:53:17I think laptops getting a lot smaller then are lighter

1:53:20and having better battery lives will eat a lot of the top end of the market and so that I really don't.

1:53:25I think so many of the people who are using tablets for part of the are going to be very satisfied in a few years with

1:53:32a really small laptop that has a lot of the benefits of a tablet hardware while not having a lot of the limitations of

1:53:38tablet software market we tried putting it didn't work out.

1:53:43Yes All right well thanks what two or three sponsors this week.

1:53:49Helspont Linda dot com and new relic and we will see you next week. It was accidental accidental.

1:54:18And you learn from this.

1:54:30He was excessive asking a list

1:54:33and I feel like I need to explain my Sega CD reference to the chat rooms getting it all wrong saying you know me them

1:55:03at the thirty two X. or The CD X.

1:55:06Even if I think that was what the Jupiter project became that like it was like a toilet it was like a Genesis So you

1:55:12see the combo. Anyway I really came out but if I did a well known bought it.

1:55:19The reason I said Sega CD and not thirty two X.

1:55:22Is because I was I was using a reference to to say it was infamous for putting out technology long before it could be

1:55:32good or trying to

1:55:35and it was the one of the first widespread CD-ROM gaming systems if not if not the first widespread one

1:55:46and it was just awful it was a one extra Ivan load times were insane the graphics really weren't that much better than

1:55:52a Genesis games and it didn't really add much Harbor was the genesis. It was just very expensive games are terrible.

1:56:00Most like F. and Adventure games like the only game worth getting really were Sonic CD almost every game.

1:56:05He said that was terrible and

1:56:08and the reason why I made the reference in relation to the surface was like the surface I think was Microsoft having

1:56:13this interesting hardware idea of doing it like a generation too early.

1:56:17Basically before it can really be if it was going to be good I think they did it too early to be good.

1:56:24So that's why I suggested the Sega CD because that was like they did it like a generation before the other CD-ROM

1:56:30giving systems

1:56:31and the other ones were way better because they had the benefit of having better technology available to them

1:56:37or the Sega CD was just like way too early way you know way before its time and pretty bad as a result

1:56:44and that's why the thirty two X. Is not an appropriate reference for the thirty two X.

1:56:47Failed for lots of reasons that had nothing to do with technology the technology actually pretty good

1:56:52but it fails a lot of other reasons. When I was an intended kid as you can tell I was a Sega person.

1:56:59What happened to you both. I grew up.

1:57:02Oh yeah well what happened to me was that the Second City in thirty two

1:57:07and I want to tell the story on the pod cast I don't recall but when I was in high school

1:57:15and from the beginning of college when I was at home I worked at a Babbage's which was a subsidiary of Game Stop

1:57:23and I remember vividly peddling the Dreamcast like you couldn't even imagine before it came out.

1:57:30It's going to be so much better to be awesome something awesome can be so much better it's going to be awesome

1:57:34and then it came out

1:57:35and it was so much better I would argue although I'm not going to stand on this one like I did the vinyl argument

1:57:41anyway.

1:57:42Point being it came out like three people bought it and then it disappeared and saved all but folded after that

1:57:48and you know the problem was that by all accounts I never had a Dreamcast but I played one a few times here and there.

1:57:54By all accounts the Dreamcast was a good system. The problem was the Dreamcast followed the Sega CD. Thirty two X.

1:58:00and The Saturn.

1:58:01All of which were terrible game systems and so Sega fan base was pretty burned by that point

1:58:06and there were other factors involved as well that made the Dreamcast kind of fail but

1:58:11but you know the biggest problem the Dreamcast had nothing to do with a target the hardware was actually really good.

1:58:16Yeah agreed.

1:58:18So John out of curiosity what what should we have been talking about besides the Sega CD and Katie Nintendo fanboy ism.

1:58:26Well what what was the proper answer to what gives us as we used in the early ninety's I was saying what happened here

1:58:34you're both enthusiastic gamers as kids and then fell off the wagon

1:58:38or on to the wagon I don't know which ever analogy is the one that I never strayed on that actually I mean for me

1:58:44personally it was getting into things like personal side projects and like side programming projects and making

1:58:51and then eventually working for myself and writing and pod casting.

1:58:54Like all this other stuff I'm doing with my free time where I just don't like there's never a time during the day

1:59:00when I think I would like to spend the next hour playing a video game like I used to have those moments

1:59:05and now I just don't buy. There is there are other ways are going to spend that time now.

1:59:09Yes same here like when I was younger.

1:59:13The Nintendo sixty four came out

1:59:14and I was still hugely into that like I blew so many hours on Goldeneye in Mario Kart I can't even tell you

1:59:21and then I just kind of stop playing games.

1:59:25I found girls around that point

1:59:26or more appropriately I might have actually started to have some modicum of success with.

1:59:30But but I remember vividly buying a Play Station the original Play Station with my own money

1:59:37and getting Metal Gear Solid in one of the final fantasies and playing the crap out of those

1:59:43and then I never really looked back against an ever again. Oh here's where you two are missing right now.

1:59:50For the same reason that I assume you both like to watch television

1:59:53and movies like you still both do that as a thing that you enjoy the experience afforded by the bad.

2:00:00Just modern games is like the best movie ever seen combined with of US T.V.

2:00:05You've ever seen multiplied by twenty four people who are into games and who are you know fluent in the interface

2:00:12and vocabulary of gaming a great game I think all gamers would agree is a superior experience to a great movie.

2:00:20To these to them because they're gamers right.

2:00:22And so we integrate that into games I would think that a really great game could give you the equivalent experience of

2:00:29a really great movie or a really great T.V. Show. And just like movies and T.V.

2:00:32It is going to be a lot of crap is going to last if you're not interested in that stuff is disappointing

2:00:37but that's why I continue to find time in my schedule to play these games like the fall of the industry so it's just a

2:00:44hobby you know just reading about or whatever but what games do I play.

2:00:47I don't have a lot of time to play games but I make time to play the games that I think are going to be great

2:00:52and I enjoy them immensely

2:00:54and I'm glad I carve out that time in the same way that I carve out time to watch Game of Thrones

2:00:58or in the past The Wire or The Sopranos

2:01:00or all of those things that you find time in your schedule not so much every T.V. Show T.V.

2:01:04Is mostly crap but The Sopranos is great and I'm going to watch it

2:01:07and I feel the same way about you know playing the last of us or you know certainly journey

2:01:12or anything like that so it's not like you know I'm not able to have have to be then you will have to be gamers

2:01:18or whatever

2:01:18but I think that it isn't it's reasonable to assume that were you to pursue gaming there would be games that you would

2:01:25enjoy as much as you enjoy your favorite television programs or movies.

2:01:29Yeah but let's consider that I tend to have terrible taste in music television and movies.

2:01:35So but then I'm in town like you like what you like is a bazillion games or there's a billion movies and T.V.

2:01:47Shows if you like to watch you know supernatural

2:01:50and then that's the kind of show you want there are gaming equivalent of that like I'm saying it's at this point it's a

2:01:56genre as rich as television or movies or books for that matter.

2:02:00Maybe not as rich as those things but moving in that direction

2:02:02but certainly in mass market appeal there's probably something you could find that would appeal to you the problem I

2:02:10think for people who are an interest like Oh well how do I know what the tech like to me is just one big giant blob of

2:02:14games

2:02:15and if you're not following the game industry I'm reading game magazines really gaining new site the following game.

2:02:19People on Twitter you don't know which thing to take

2:02:22and if you just go to the store like all of us try this game you'll try it it will be crap.

2:02:25You'll be annoyed you like see this is why I don't play games they're stupid right.

2:02:29So there is that barrier I'm not saying it's easy to come into

2:02:31but I think that there's nothing about the two of you including your age

2:02:36or maturity level that is preventing you is making you incapable of enjoying modern gaming because for a reasonable

2:02:42proclamation everybody enjoys Munna game everybody's a gamer to some degree or another

2:02:48and if anything you two are standing out as oddities and that he used to be gamers

2:02:52and now as adults just sort of cut them out of your life entirely and that's becoming increasingly rare.

2:02:57You think this is like unusual. Yeah but I don't think so. I'm with Marco.

2:03:03You go go look at the numbers

2:03:04and go look at the numbers on the gaming industry go look at the average range of a gamer you are not in the majority.

2:03:10You're saying that it's unusual for people to play games and they're younger

2:03:13and then not play games on there like in their thirty's. You know what do you think the average age of gamers.

2:03:18Now I know it's going up but that doesn't necessarily mean what you just said now

2:03:23but just look at the distribution look at how many people how big is the gaming industry how many copies the game sell

2:03:27how many people say they play games at all like it's it's massive it is mass market.

2:03:32Most people play games so most people who have any kind of computing device do I don't know what the mark on this I

2:03:38have no facts to back me up

2:03:40but well that never stopped you know I mean you know that is that that doesn't pass the smell test for me what's

2:03:48interesting is that you don't like my parents.

2:03:51I'll let the others the readers wrote in and tell you all the doesn't it. Do you stop playing games.

2:03:56You haven't grown out of those because I used to give my parents which they.

2:04:00I'd found non-human thing and all and you also find I'm commencing but I will do it again.

2:04:03It's kind of like if you know my grandparents my grandparents parents said to them that my grandparents

2:04:09or I could see them at eighty five years old

2:04:11and say You guys are still playing piano Arkell you don't grow out of cards how can you play it like they played it

2:04:16their whole life they played card games

2:04:17and their kids they play it to the day they died they played it just you know that was their version of games these

2:04:22card games.

2:04:23They didn't grow out of them and in the same way most anyone who's actually game of course never grows out of them

2:04:28but at this point like anyone who grew up with games continues to play in the whole life they don't stop playing them

2:04:34in the same way that my grandparents never stop playing pinnacle it's just you know you don't it's not something you

2:04:38grow out of it's not like a child's toy there's no such thing as as adults would never want to do it.

2:04:46Games are not like us I think you still watch movies is not a kid thing you still do you still read books.

2:04:51It's not just something for kids.

2:04:52Oh

2:04:52and I don't want to I don't want to suggest that games are juvenile because that's not at all what I mean that's not why

2:04:57I stopped playing them for the most part it's literally just like there are many different ways to entertain yourself

2:05:02these days

2:05:03and I have chosen to not play very many games anymore if it was to hard to play any at all anymore because all of the

2:05:11alternatives all the alternatives to to to amusing myself worked or to spending time.

2:05:17Things like you know you present the Internet or socializing online or watching T.V.

2:05:22Series on Netflix like I've chosen to do all of those things instead

2:05:25but that's not true because you love you interest both love board games and yes it's not video games but it's games

2:05:32and if we're broadening the case if I'm moving the goal post that that that to me counts

2:05:37and similarly like I don't I don't really play games anymore

2:05:40but if I'm in a group setting I love to play a game of cards against humanity

2:05:44or you know I enjoy was a Puerto Rico that we played in South Carolina Marco

2:05:49and what was that we played just this past week and already forgotten Qwirkle Thank you.

2:05:54Games like that I really enjoy and the other thing I found that I fill my free time with if I'm not sure.

2:06:00Farting around on the Internet is I've gotten really back into reading novels again which I used to do a lot as well as

2:06:06a kid and now I've gotten back into that

2:06:09and so realizing that the local library is one of the best inventions of the world.

2:06:15I've been I've pretty much had a book with me almost always for the last six months to a year.

2:06:19OK now you're now you're back in the minority again because most North Americans anyway don't read it was it was scary

2:06:25to statistics about how many people don't read a novel after they graduate from high school that is not here

2:06:30and I don't think about it but gaming is much more mass market then than reading novels. That's probably true.

2:06:36Oh yeah definitely I mean

2:06:37and that really you guys to game a little bit like you're saying what you're saying like if I'm not playing Grand Theft

2:06:41Auto not gaming I mean like what a Press Council you know playing playing total annihilation

2:06:47or whatever you're playing with your friends that you know your friend's wedding like accounts like that's not why it

2:06:52didn't happen. Well failure to play till I leave. That's P.C. It's a P.C. Gaming P.C.

2:06:58Gaming is attempting to get a game I know I know

2:07:00but even console like I have a P S three the only game I have for it is is the white out version it was a download game

2:07:08I bought it thinking I'd get more gaming out of it

2:07:11but I also just wanted a blue ray player at the time it was about the same price as a blue ray player so I get to be as

2:07:17they are in and never use it as a game console.

2:07:19But that's not true either is it because I thought you had something to learn the nurturing on was that the P S three

2:07:25or the expo I forget which right shows if that you know that might even appear three I forget

2:07:29but I use that for like three nights.

2:07:32Teller OK I might have to give the problem for getting into these type AAA type games is that like if you're out of it

2:07:41for a long time

2:07:41and you're you you're lacking in the literacy of the current gaming conventions in your honour's And so yeah you can

2:07:47fire up like a driving game with driving into driving games but where you shoe I mean that's why I'm not.

2:07:52That's why I don't spend my time encouraging you too much to play journey because I feel like if you played it it would

2:07:56be lost on you in that you're you're missing the context to appreciate it.

2:08:00It's almost like you know we spent so much time encouraging beautiful kids they're going to I know well.

2:08:04But it's when it's clear that you're not going to do it

2:08:06and so now it's like now almost like I'd rather you not play a role you have a bunch of warm up again it's not a point

2:08:12because like you because you claim to be like kind of boring like the game would be lost on us

2:08:18and they were like you have you have a P S three should you play the last of us know if you haven't played a AAA video

2:08:23game in years

2:08:23and years the last of us is not it's not going to work for you the way it works for the people who are still you know

2:08:30sort of in the AAA gaming thing you were definitely both of you in the more of the casual gaming space.

2:08:35Yeah get Monument Valley it's fun like I don't think it's you know it's all right it's not amazing I think it's a

2:08:42little bit too easy and a little bit too short

2:08:44and not even as I think your walk was a much better game for example I think really goes fishing is a better game for

2:08:49example.

2:08:50But those are the games where you don't need a lot of contacts you can just dive right into them

2:08:53and I think for example both of you probably enjoy a ridiculous fishing.

2:08:56I played ridiculous fishing for about ten minutes and didn't see the appeal and I know everyone loved it

2:09:01and so that I assume you know what happens is I will try these games that everyone says are amazing

2:09:06and they're being big hits.

2:09:09I'll try them and most of them I mean you know you're going to threes and letterpress you know like the kind of

2:09:14and dots like you know I mean to some I was casual games

2:09:17but most of these games that people just totally obsess over I don't find them that fun

2:09:24and so I assume there's something wrong with me that I'm just not a gamer because I don't like what everyone else likes

2:09:29but you but you are like you you made your own units for whatever that was is a total annihilation I mean like

2:09:33when I was sixteen. Right.

2:09:36Those you still how do you think I want to play it like that still inside you is just that now all of your all of your

2:09:42touchstones are now out of date so

2:09:44when you try to play something minor doesn't work casually as I'm going to go fishing

2:09:47when I first tried it too I thought like you know whatever but like there is there is a hook in the game

2:09:51and if you allowed to go maybe you need to be a little more of a game

2:09:53or two for that hook to find purchase minute value simpler but I think it's more of a trifle.

2:10:00Your walk is probably when you are not you need to be game to play that someone is trying to like threes

2:10:05and letterpress you guys go have no problem getting that you want to because it's more like a board game which Marco

2:10:09does play actively like you then you're like Oh I understand what this is about our life it's like by the way by

2:10:14actively like I'll play it will play board games

2:10:16or games with with like you know friends who are over sometimes I would say we probably play board games for maybe an

2:10:24hour and a half every two months like we're not talking about a frequent hobby I would like to play more of them

2:10:29but I do enjoy them.

2:10:31But

2:10:31but yeah doesn't like i don't get the chance that often I mean that's like that's I think more of a time investment from

2:10:37my perspective than than a video game because like you got to get all the stuff out

2:10:41and you got to get the multiple people now have to be there in a row like where is a video game you can steal time to

2:10:45play more conveniently than you could steal because you can't play you know like one of these complicated German board

2:10:50games that requires five people and they ought to know the rules or any of us are going to be there for an hour

2:10:53and like that is not something you can steal time in just to grab a quick game of

2:10:58or even put an extra hour of like how to play the last of us have played it when the kids were asleep

2:11:02when my wife was out of town in a series of you know one or two hour sittings

2:11:08and I could not play that if I had a board game that I was interested in I would be like you

2:11:12and waiting around to have time to gather a bunch of people who also want to play a board game who also know the rules

2:11:16to play the board game so I think that's it's harder to find time to do that but you managed to do it like

2:11:22and it's fine I'm just saying like I think that there is enjoyment to be had there is nothing in you that's making that

2:11:27making you like oh I'm just not a game I guess I don't love these games that everybody loves a lot of times it is

2:11:31missing the context for it and I think there are games out there that you would enjoy.

2:11:37Yeah I'm sure there are

2:11:38but I think you're right that it that I'm not willing to put in a massive time investment to try to find these things

2:11:45I'm not willing to to say like you know.

2:11:48Oh yeah I'm going to I'm going to spend this whole Saturday afternoon like like if my wife sent out a tandem I couldn't

2:11:53sleep. The thing I would most want to do is go to my computer and write.

2:12:00Our program I love doing those things that I had to do that then go to the T.V. and Play a game.

2:12:07Someday be ready for a journey market maybe every atom God will want to play games probably because they're fun thing

2:12:13to do and kids have nothing to do but you know they have nothing but free time right.

2:12:16So maybe he'll help you get your into them but some day when you're ready. Kiran he will be there for you personally.

2:12:22Yes five remastered version. Yeah and it you know if that happens like you know if my kid into playing games.

2:12:26Yeah I agree that that's likely you know if you like in games

2:12:30and play with him that's a whole different story then I would you know because I'm spending time with my kid

2:12:34and you know interacting with him or playing these games that make sense.

2:12:37Because then you'll suck in your view the debtor can play games.

2:12:40Well but is that how you probably suck too you don't realize it. No not my family.

2:12:45Well I will tell you the day with a name like it's going to mean any video game

2:12:49and I am determined that day will never come.

2:12:52Right now it's time for titles I love so see that we've covered the Fed So far we've had ten reviews.

2:13:00Journey File Systems file systems we had it earlier we have seriously hit the John Surtees select quad sector

2:13:08and we're not even close would even mention Tivo I could even touch on.