The Accidental Tech Podcast

62: Journey Would Be Wasted On You

 

  If we wait another decade ninety's musical wraparound to become awesome like the eighty's music did well that just [TS]

  never happened. [TS]

  As I always do I listen to the show last week [TS]

  and I kept waiting for myself to make a point to that I meant to make during the show [TS]

  and it's conceivable that I stopped paying attention for three seconds and missed myself saying this. [TS]

  So if I'm repeating if I'm repeating something I said in the very last show I apologize. [TS]

  So to be clear you are following up with your theoretical past self. [TS]

  Yeah like I mean I don't have you know I don't have notes or anything but [TS]

  when we are talking a piece on like this is one of the major points I want to make [TS]

  and it's about scaling which we also talked about in the last show [TS]

  and I don't know how I could possibly manage to miss it. But just in case anyway. [TS]

  One of the innovations that the company that makes the P sell thing is supposedly bring to the table is the ability to [TS]

  solve this problem that we discussed in the show are sort of solving for what signal needs to be sent out by all the [TS]

  various towers so that the interference combines to make exactly the right signals in exactly the right place so not [TS]

  just for one phone [TS]

  but for two ten five thousand whatever every single one of those all the towers that are transmitting that could [TS]

  possibly be overlapping in interfering with each other need to do so in such a way that every individual phone gets [TS]

  exactly the signal it's meant for it in exactly the spot that the phone is. [TS]

  And that as you can imagine requires fast communication between all the nodes but also a lot of processing power [TS]

  and the Suppose that innovation that the companies bring I think Artemis is the name of it. [TS]

  The companies bring is the ability to solve that that problem. [TS]

  Hey everybody what signal do all these towers need to put out so exactly the right signals going to the right places to [TS]

  solve it in a real time scaling linearly with the number of phones. [TS]

  So instead of the old we can solve for two phones three phones [TS]

  but as we go up to ten phones then it becomes like a hundred times. [TS]

  Hard to solve and if we go for a thousand phones it's like a million times hard to solve there's no way we could do it. [TS]

  Supposedly they have a system where they can just add computers and a more [TS]

  or less linear fashion to support more phones within the cell area [TS]

  and so that that's what allows this system to be possible that you know there are things we have the computing [TS]

  capability to do this we have the communication Bashar to do it [TS]

  and we have come up with a way to solve whatever this you know this problem is that to solve for the output that all [TS]

  these cells towers need to put out to make constructive interference in just the right way and we can do it linearly. [TS]

  So because if you couldn't do it any early you can imagine that maybe you were to work for like a trade show [TS]

  or something [TS]

  but for an entire city with thousands upon thousands of cell phones if it didn't scale immediately you've got big [TS]

  problems in terms of computing power and so that is one of perhaps the most important planned that [TS]

  and the ability to do with existing cell phones of existing L.T.E. [TS]

  Networks are requiring special hardware on the handsets. Those two things are the two things that make peace possible. [TS]

  Again according to the claims we'll see how it shakes out. [TS]

  All right and the next bit a follow up was actually for me for once it doesn't happen often [TS]

  but it does occasionally happen. [TS]

  Last episode at the end I was discussing or John and I [TS]

  and occasionally Casey making vinyl references were discussing scaling and and the difference in scaling performance [TS]

  and in it I discussed how [TS]

  when I'm writing web apps I don't use database joins I if I don't use them in local Abdi there [TS]

  but that's more because of my framework anyway so I don't use database joins [TS]

  and the reason why don't you Davies joins us for various scaling concerns [TS]

  and you know basically to keep my options open for splitting up the database in the future [TS]

  and also to shift as much work as possible onto the easy and cheap to scale web flash application servers [TS]

  and leave the hard and expensive to scale database server with a viable workload is possible. Anyway so I got it. [TS]

  Bunch of feedback on that from a lot of people. [TS]

  A handful of people who agree with me and a whole bunch people who disagree [TS]

  and the people who agreed are typically people who had done it before who had who had worked on large large scale [TS]

  applications before who had seen these problems [TS]

  and solved in the same way so of course they would agree because they they did the same way themselves. [TS]

  The big harmony is my technique of not using joins. [TS]

  Was that you you know we've never needed that in our organization or in our project [TS]

  or I personally never needed one of my projects. [TS]

  Might as well you know use database as much as you can and when you need it then you know then you cross that bridge [TS]

  and to me. [TS]

  I wrote a quick thing on my blog so not to go too far into it [TS]

  but basically I think that's kind of the wrong angle to approach scaling questions from. [TS]

  Scaling is constantly asking yourself then what. So OK you have this. [TS]

  So far you have all these things on one server because that one server is enough. [TS]

  But then what happens when it's not enough then what. [TS]

  And scaling well and building scalable systems means trying to anticipate some of those then what scenarios [TS]

  and having a decent answer for it that's not going to involve rewrite half your code [TS]

  and go through your whole code base and make sure you aren't using joint anywhere anymore. [TS]

  Or you know because you know if you think about not only that a ton of work [TS]

  and it could potentially introduce tons of books if you haven't written this way from the beginning [TS]

  but also you'll probably be doing that under incredible pressure and time. [TS]

  Time constraints because you're probably doing that because you hit an oak wrap moment in your scaling [TS]

  and you realize oh wait a minute you know I've added the most RAM to this and I could possibly add [TS]

  and it's not helping or this you know I've done everything I can with one box and it still isn't enough. What do I do. [TS]

  And if you if you don't plan for. [TS]

  Those And you know obviously this is all qualified with you know to an extent [TS]

  or within reason you know you don't have to plan to be the next Facebook because you probably won't be. [TS]

  And if you do become the next Facebook you can hire a bunch of Smarter people than you to do all this. [TS]

  As you get that big. [TS]

  But even just going from from tiny to small or from small to mid size you're going to hit some of these questions [TS]

  and you're not going to have a giant I.T. [TS]

  Staff you're not going to have infinite money you're not going to be infinite time [TS]

  and so it's worth considering that because you know a lot of people would say oh this is about premature optimisation [TS]

  and premature optimization is wrong period because that's you've heard that before it sounds good [TS]

  and the fact is that's you know premature optimization is not always wrong or bad. It's a trade off. [TS]

  You're trading it in most cases you're trading some complexity for some or a lot of performance and or [TS]

  or you know in case of scaling options in the future for for better scaling are easier scaling or possible scaling [TS]

  and so premature optimization and designing things to be scalable can be worthwhile if it's relatively easy [TS]

  and if there's not a lot of major costs to it you know both in time and in maintenance and limitations in the app [TS]

  and other things like if it's if it's relatively easy to make better decisions that make your app more scalable the [TS]

  whole time you're designing it you should do it because it isn't you know it's like a best practice. [TS]

  It isn't that much more work and you might never need but when you do need it you'll be very glad you have it. [TS]

  So I guess that's it on that topic for now do you guys have any to follow up on scaling. [TS]

  I think there are two other threads of feedback on the on the thing. [TS]

  One war the people who are saying that it sounded like you're using bicycle without using any relational features so [TS]

  here are a bunch of non relational data storage that you could use instead so as a couple people had and then. [TS]

  The other one was I think maybe it's just one person [TS]

  but I thought it was a good point that we didn't get to that depending on the nature of your application if you have [TS]

  something that's sort of non interactive and trivially silo a ball you could get away with. [TS]

  You know you would have to worry about this joint type thing because all you would do is just sort of shore it up by [TS]

  customer and one customer's data would never make it was another. [TS]

  And at that point like this you know then you have your entire scale you know are a lot of scaling strategies entirely [TS]

  based on giving users up into smaller and smaller bins [TS]

  and you just need some way to figure out where this user has been is and that could be something super fast [TS]

  and easily scalable and then just the bins. [TS]

  It's like well the bin is too slow my solution is to cut the bin in half [TS]

  and that point if you do joins against the bins it doesn't matter all it does is make you have to cut them into pieces [TS]

  and there are easy social applications are not like this where you have to wear this some sort of global awareness [TS]

  or you're following that person things and they're following yours over there [TS]

  and you know most systems are not this simple [TS]

  but it was a good point to like it really it really depends on the shape of your system what what does the state look [TS]

  like in your thing what state are you tracking how is the state related to the other states. [TS]

  And if you're sure that there is no into relations [TS]

  nor will there be in the future you can get away with just starting by you know by a user. [TS]

  That's a very big if though [TS]

  and I agree like you know if you have something like for instance if you look at something like this [TS]

  and ask for fresh books these like these hosted applications that you know they create a little little site [TS]

  or thing for you as the customer [TS]

  and these are by definition very private things that no one none of their other customers need ever need to access your [TS]

  data in fact there it should be it should not be possible for them to access your data. [TS]

  So it makes sense [TS]

  when you have something that is that strictly divided by user where the users will never have to interact with each [TS]

  other or their or their data it makes sense to then do that kind of starting there. [TS]

  But if you have any kind of consumer facing. [TS]

  General purpose service kind of thing like there's there are so many options for cross data referencing [TS]

  and you know if you if you start out with a system that charted in that way then first of all you are that is a pretty [TS]

  big limitation you put on yourself and your development and it does that complexity and does that managing the plexi. [TS]

  So that's the kind of thing that I would be very careful to decide if you're to say that up front to do that in the [TS]

  beginning I would be very careful that decision because that really will limit you later [TS]

  and it might not be necessary or it might not be right [TS]

  or you might have to pivot it into something that that has a little bit more data cross over. [TS]

  Even the consumer facing systems doesn't like real systems that are out there a lot of the times they will take the [TS]

  part of their system that scales in this way and scale it in that way [TS]

  and then use a different strategy for like the interrelated. [TS]

  That's when you have to end up doing [TS]

  when you scale things you can end up breaking breaking apart the fun the functionality of your application which is [TS]

  part of the reason why you're not doing to us [TS]

  but just like in the grand scheme of things that may be user information could be shored up nicely by user [TS]

  but then all the interrelated information has an entirely different back end with entirely different scaling strange [TS]

  like you end up you know the whole service oriented architecture thing you end up with different pieces of your [TS]

  application scaling in different ways we very often it's not there is no one master scaling solution for your entire [TS]

  app you have to look at it in pieces [TS]

  and like the logon flow is like this session management like this user information is like this. [TS]

  Relationship Management is like this I mean one of the great examples I remember I wrote a story a while back about how [TS]

  linked in a fairly standard looking back and except for the part that handled all the relationships [TS]

  and that had to be on a server where it was all in memory and are reading that [TS]

  and feeling bad for them because it's like you know that's built in time bomb for scale like they're raised they're [TS]

  raising Moore's Law to see Will the amount of the relationship information linked in get big faster than we can buy [TS]

  machines pester them they mount of RAM we can stuff into a single machine. [TS]

  And so that's kind of an unfortunate thing but it's obvious. [TS]

  I didn't use that same scaling strategy for the user information was just for the relations information which is [TS]

  another system and then one more thing honestly that then what. [TS]

  QUESTION One of then what's the you that you haven't asked and haven't had. [TS]

  Didn't have to ask for Tumblr probably will never out that's running your applications [TS]

  but I think a lot of people thinking about that then what should consider is the idea of making database accesses from [TS]

  essentially a web application [TS]

  or any application for that matter like the code that is running your thing it connects to a database. [TS]

  Very often in these large applications need to find somewhere to scale they have to put a layer in between there so you [TS]

  want some kind of data access layer that does not connect to the database to get information [TS]

  and so if you're using something like this it actually model over everything [TS]

  or any of these like things that basically you're going to put your projects equal in your code somewhere right. [TS]

  And you like well it doesn't matter you don't see the sequel thoughts tracked it away a bit like essentially what [TS]

  you're making is is a front end to do sequel great story like if I needed to I could swap that out for something [TS]

  and didn't talk directly to a database. [TS]

  But it would be kind of painful [TS]

  and so if you make a data access layer that is agnostic to the destination either you make it work over a sheet from [TS]

  the very start and then have sort of a Web site you know a web service back [TS]

  and they get you that information you like well that seems like it's going to be slower [TS]

  and it seems like a waste of time and I'm never going to do that maybe you're right [TS]

  but in my experience a lot of applications one of the first things they run into you know if they have perfect [TS]

  horizontal scale ability in terms of charting users because that type of thing so it's like a B. To B. [TS]

  Business where you're always you know your customers do want their stings to be solid like it was no problem will [TS]

  eventually arrive into the realization [TS]

  and most especially using relational database most relational database products are not made to support the number of [TS]

  connections that are anything close to sort of the scale of users on the Web site [TS]

  and so you have to conserve those database connections you need some sort of I mean there David action pulling all the [TS]

  other strategies [TS]

  but in general if you divorce your application as much as possible from where it's getting its information even though [TS]

  that information is in the database now. [TS]

  Having some sort of transport layer in there like even something is done that they should be paid for some kind of you [TS]

  know again service oriented architecture thing that seems terrible performance for performance [TS]

  and often is much worse for performance [TS]

  and that's why people say now do you know the case is probably you know he was complaining about having to make a round [TS]

  trip to the database for multiple you know imagine if you had to make an agent something then that something would [TS]

  potentially go to it as even more overhead and yes you are sacrificing performance [TS]

  and complexity for a long axes that you think you might need to you know you might need to that [TS]

  and then what says OK well we're out of database connections you know then what. [TS]

  Or you know like having having the application correctly connect directly to databases that you know a security concern [TS]

  or a networking issue or whatever then what if you do everything as a service [TS]

  and you could have you know multiple data centers [TS]

  and different you know I do everything already dipping into geographic load balancing [TS]

  and have all this you know give you more flexibility. So that's a then what. [TS]

  Just one more than what I've I've come across many times in my working career and every time I've either designed [TS]

  or been working an application that connects to a database I've regretted it. But your mileage may vary. [TS]

  Now I agree on that and I'm pretty sure I don't actually know this for sure because when I left I actually did leave. [TS]

  But but I'm pretty sure at Tumblr that was that was like one of the big things they did. [TS]

  Pretty soon after I left like once they got like a more experienced staff in there who would work on systems of that [TS]

  size which it was [TS]

  and he wanted to reach the levels that it was it was getting pretty far beyond my ability to scale it myself and [TS]

  and that's that's when the first thing they did was move to that kind of architecture [TS]

  and that does make sense that is one of those things again where I'd like I think you can go a pretty long way without [TS]

  doing that. [TS]

  And so again [TS]

  and it's it's a premature optimization that you you know it might be worth it for you to do that in my case it almost [TS]

  never is. And it never will never has been so far but certainly that is something that might be worth doing. [TS]

  I don't like that phrase of his like it built into premature optimization prematurely saying you're doing it sooner [TS]

  than you need to. [TS]

  Like these after station fees whenever [TS]

  and that's one of the the vocabulary tools wielded by programmers in arguments like well that's a premature [TS]

  optimization but it's a tautology like you are asserting that is premature by calling it premature. [TS]

  Likewise a premature one is premier is it too early [TS]

  or is it not too I think that's the whole argument they were supposed to be having [TS]

  and you can't win that argument by pulling out the term premature optimization. [TS]

  That just explains what your position is the new stuff to defend it's all these accusations what you're saying Marco is [TS]

  like they're not premature This is in fact exactly the right time to do it because my expectation is X. Y. and Z. [TS]

  and You're arguing about like are we ever going to get big as we as we scale which thing will break first like you have [TS]

  to basically said what is our maximum possible size what's the first thing that's going to fall over. [TS]

  How long can we go doing joins How long can we go directly connecting to the database you just can map them out [TS]

  or have arguments about like which one you think is going to come first and then you know you live [TS]

  and learn applications change shape as you go and it will be a make some bad choices [TS]

  and maybe you know I thought we were going to grow in this way [TS]

  but it turns out this feature ended up being much more popular [TS]

  and we had this thing before we had that thing so you're always trying to get you know second guess the future is [TS]

  but the whole point is don't do any premature optimization [TS]

  and do ones that you know are not premature in fact exactly the right time to do them [TS]

  and to to know what that is you have to just you kind of have to guess but you use your experience [TS]

  and your knowledge of building similar applications in the past you know like maybe maybe instead of thinking of them [TS]

  as premature you think of them as whether they're worthwhile or not anyway [TS]

  and the other the only other thing I would say about that about having that multitude architecture is for whatever it's [TS]

  worth if database connections are your problem you're in a weird situation I've never seen before. [TS]

  I have never seen a database be limited by its number of connections. [TS]

  Maybe that's because I write my code to disconnect one of done. [TS]

  The connecting disconnect is another thing a lot of especially you know old school relational databases are not [TS]

  designed to handle connection storms [TS]

  and you know how many users can try to connect to Davis once say one hundred thousand users want to connect at the same [TS]

  time. [TS]

  What does I do versus those hundred thousand users being spread out over a minute over thirty seconds over one second. [TS]

  How does it handle that and then you will have persistent connections OK [TS]

  but now you have people tying up connections and now you're the number you know. I see it all the time now. [TS]

  Fair enough. [TS]

  That's probably more you know you sick specific with whatever your application actually is and how [TS]

  and what Or However your layer actually treats the database connection [TS]

  and how good your pooling solution is because again relational databases depending on their vintage may [TS]

  or may not have robust pooling solutions to Google scale or one of the fun things is you run out of port numbers. [TS]

  Oh yeah so and I do like what I do like the web sockets [TS]

  and they like you know it's like a sixteen the number you get sixty five thousand a murder ever [TS]

  and I think you mean like LET YOU hundred runs a limitation of the operating system like well this machine could [TS]

  support more connections but we're literally out of port numbers. That's insane. [TS]

  It makes sense but that is not something I ever would think to be a problem. [TS]

  Yeah well that's what Google's for to find those limits and actually hatch a Linux you know overcome them [TS]

  and figure something else out. [TS]

  I never got into the level where I had to start tweaking kernel settings things like that. [TS]

  Like we would just we would use the kernel stock because that was like I would like [TS]

  and I get I don't know if I don't know what tumbler situation is now to get their way bigger naturally now that the [TS]

  Yahoo bought them they're probably getting a lot of help from Yahoo's people [TS]

  and running into the guy who's infrastructure who knows. [TS]

  But certainly at the time I left that we never had to get into that. [TS]

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  Once again I have a question for the both of you guys [TS]

  and I think it applies to both of you want to start with you Marco So how do you how do you get outside of your comfort [TS]

  zone and learn something new and what if if you think about your history you wrote tumblr in P.H.P.. [TS]

  You wrote Instapaper in P.H.P. Yes My sequel for both the magazine P.H.P. In my sequel now overcast P.H.P. [TS]

  and My sequel even second crack which was kind of a for fun pet project with P.H.P. [TS]

  In my sequel are like it's not my sequel that P.H.P. What how do you how do you learn something new. [TS]

  How do you go about that. Do you not care. Does it not bother you do you. [TS]

  Just don't think it's an issue right now when you learn it [TS]

  when you need to because the only thing the only example that I can think of knowing your history is [TS]

  when you learned I was development for instance paper but have what have you done since then [TS]

  and what cued me off on this was everyone saying you should look at an NEO no sequel databases [TS]

  and you basically said well I've got my sequin works fine for me. [TS]

  Well it's a combination of factors I mean one is certainly that I'm not very good at making myself learn new things [TS]

  about don't have to you know that's that's just a character flaw I guess that's you know no question that's one of the [TS]

  factors. [TS]

  But also there's two others one is conservatism that you know I been on the cutting edge before I have I have lived in [TS]

  the cutting edge world before and it's a lot of work and it's a lot of maintenance [TS]

  and versions of weird things running on your server that crash in the middle of night need attention [TS]

  or hating weird bugs. [TS]

  You know that because of just your bring such a new version of things are such a new technology that has really had all [TS]

  the bugs ironed out yet. So part. [TS]

  So that's another big part of it that I just I I'm now at a point where I want to avoid those kind of costs if I can. [TS]

  And that's not always going to be the case. [TS]

  And sometimes it's worth the cost so for instance on overcast servers I've decided to run a V.M. [TS]

  As the interpreter layer because it is just so much faster than P.H.P. [TS]

  and I'm probably one of probably going to either so I was setting up my load balancing today [TS]

  and I'm probably going to have two web front end V.M.S. To start and one of them are running one of them run P.H.P. [TS]

  So if it crashes we really are STILL have you know something to take up the slack until I fix it. [TS]

  But for whatever it's worth. [TS]

  Generally speaking I try to avoid those kind of bleeding that the cost of being on the bleeding edge because I've [TS]

  decided it's not worth it. [TS]

  You might have a different calculation on that for whatever your application might be for me I've just decided it's not [TS]

  worth being on the bleeding edge Now that being said. [TS]

  Obviously there's there's a lot of things that I could learn besides P.H.P. and My S.Q.L. and An Objective C. [TS]

  For I was development. [TS]

  There's a lot of things I could learn that are that are mature and are far from being on the bleeding edge these days. [TS]

  And for most of those I haven't simply because it hasn't yet been really necessary. [TS]

  Learning things has a big cost [TS]

  and I have to weigh whether it's worth going through the learning period going through a period of finding all of the [TS]

  intricate details of the behavior and finding out the best ways to do things and and learning the A.P.I. [TS]

  Is in enough depth to use them really well. [TS]

  And I'm at that point with the technologies I know now for the most part and for me to learn a whole new language [TS]

  or platform or something. [TS]

  It has to be worth that learning curve [TS]

  and I've decided that for what I'm doing currently it's not work that I'm part of that. [TS]

  Obviously like on the on the Iowa side I don't think there's anything I can learn that would be better than Objective [TS]

  C. [TS]

  I don't think there are any any better things really than you know for for what I'm doing I think I'm using the best [TS]

  things already for the Web site certainly you can do a lot better than P.H.P. These days.. [TS]

  I still would argue that that might not be the case for my S.Q.L. but Certainly you can do a lot better than P.H.P. [TS]

  The main reason I haven't gone there on the web side is not only that I don't really need to know if something's [TS]

  forcing me and not only do I already know it it's very stable [TS]

  but also I just don't care that much about the Web site I am not that interested in running cutting edge web stuff [TS]

  or even learning new web stuff I don't really have to learn because the Web site to me is a supporting role I am I am [TS]

  not making a web app that happens to have an i O. S. Client. I'm making an I O. S. [TS]

  Happen happen to have a web backend and that's where my focus is I care so much more because I was [TS]

  and that's why I want to be cutting edge on the Iowa side I want to be doing everything right on the Iowa side [TS]

  but the Web site is really just serving us. [TS]

  The porting role here and [TS]

  and it's it's more important for me like I don't care about new stuff I'm very interested in learning new framework for [TS]

  I.O.'s like it felt like when when so much of the school stuff it's come around like Grand Central Dispatch [TS]

  and stuff like that like so much of this cool stuff come around that I was really into I love that stuff I find it very [TS]

  interesting. That's a fair point. [TS]

  New web stuff I just don't care about its I I don't care what web programming I really don't enjoy web programming [TS]

  anymore I find it very boring [TS]

  and I do it because I have to to build the products I want so that you know that the primary goal is I like client side [TS]

  programming for i O S N C C and I like the products that result from these things [TS]

  and so the web codebase is really just a you know supporting role for that so for me my my priority there is just get [TS]

  it done. [TS]

  I don't want to spend a ton of time on it just get it done so they can do what I need to do not [TS]

  and that doesn't include like learn a bunch of new web languages [TS]

  when I'm not really being presented with clear motivations to do that. [TS]

  Yeah that makes sense and I think the most surprising use of P.H.P. [TS]

  For me isn't overcast or Instapaper tumbler it's second crack [TS]

  and granted it makes perfect sense that you would use something you're familiar with especially for a project that's [TS]

  not going to make any money and you just do it for the heck of it. [TS]

  But when I write something outside of work [TS]

  and I do it for fun I tend to force myself to use a different technology for example I wrote fast text which was which [TS]

  is an I O. S. and I didn't object to C. Because I know Jack to C. [TS]

  and I wanted to learn it [TS]

  and I have been dabbling with writing my own kind of second crack let's call it third crack for the sake of a [TS]

  conversation I've been using node because I've heard a lot of great things about No no I wanted to try that actually [TS]

  really really come to like it and it's just surprising to me. [TS]

  Perhaps because you don't have a corporate stooge job so you have a lot more control over your own destiny. But. [TS]

  Surprising to me that you don't have this thirst to learn something new [TS]

  when I don't learn a new language in about a six months to one year window I start to get kind of crabby [TS]

  and angsty in anxious and I really need to learn something new and it seems like for better [TS]

  or worse that that doesn't seem to apply to you. [TS]

  Well it does totally you know I get that like the programmer basically. [TS]

  I totally get that but I have different areas than that in the web language I use. [TS]

  Second crack for those who don't know or care they can crack is my is my custom static blogging engine that I wrote [TS]

  and it's it's just like a bunch of command line scripts basically and they're all written in P.H.P. [TS]

  and I'm probably the only person in the universe using P.H.P. To write command line scripts and that's fine. [TS]

  One [TS]

  and that you're right that totally would have been a great opportunity to try new language it was a small project with [TS]

  small needs that was not very pressing to get it done quickly and doesn't need to scale really. [TS]

  You're right that would have been great [TS]

  and maybe some time I will rewrite that because where it's it's pretty crappy really I mean so maybe you [TS]

  and maybe cinema rewrite in something else. But you know part of the reason why as you said I don't have a day job. [TS]

  When I wrote second crack it was itself a procrastination from my actual. [TS]

  That's part of that's part of the problem you work for yourself is that any time you're able to do work like that it's [TS]

  potentially taking away from your quote work like your official work that you're actually getting paid for trying to [TS]

  get done and I forget exactly which project I was procrastinating on when I wrote second crack. [TS]

  I'm pretty sure it was probably Instapaper but I'm not I'm not positive on the timing on that. [TS]

  But either way that was itself a procrastination [TS]

  and so I didn't want to spend a lot of time on it so I that's why as I figured let me just use P.H.P. [TS]

  Because I can get it done very quickly with P.H.P. I don't want to be a big time sink then that makes sense. [TS]

  That being said though I stir. [TS]

  All learn tons you know as I said like I try to keep up as much as I can with with I specially low level stuff like for [TS]

  instance with overcast I don't use a V. [TS]

  Player or the audio player [TS]

  and I'm not sure if I've said that publicly before I think I have so there shouldn't be a big surprise [TS]

  but I'm playing audio files and I'm not using a V. Player and if you've ever worked on the stuff you should know. [TS]

  Therefore what that means I'm using rock or audio and that this is an amazing learning process [TS]

  and probably I didn't need to do that you know I have some reasons why I did it but I probably didn't need to. [TS]

  Chances are you could just do you know you could I could I could've used a B. [TS]

  Player and save myself a lot of time [TS]

  but I wanted certain though the control I want to learn the stuff so I mean extensive use of things like the Accelerate [TS]

  frame work using all the V.D.'s P. [TS]

  Functions so these functions that basically vectorize operation the new SIMD instructions to fight that to really make [TS]

  these things awesomely fast if possible and I'm using that stuff all over the place in so many ways [TS]

  and so I'm learning things like that I'm learning various different concurrency strategies and [TS]

  and you know doing things like the crazy ring buffer for the for the buffering of the samples I'm reading from the [TS]

  files and everything like that stuff I love. [TS]

  That's all really interesting to me this is all you know that's where I've been learning is in overcast client side [TS]

  code and again the web stuff I just I couldn't possibly care less about. [TS]

  So John what about you because your day job has been as far as I know pretty much forever in Perl. [TS]

  Do you ever have that itch. What do you do to scratch it if so. [TS]

  Well it was time for like fun programming projects [TS]

  or all the things that I've put on my own playlists actually besides my job over the years. [TS]

  You know writing virus tech they go it embodies much more of a pod casting more recently. [TS]

  Much Time for Fun program products like I wrote my own little static blogging engine thing [TS]

  but that was kind of like Markos and the like. [TS]

  Yes Well speaking of fun product it really was a practical thing and my you know I just want to get done quickly. [TS]

  So I wrote it in progress I know you get it done quickly [TS]

  and I intentionally stop myself from making it good because it was like you know this is something I know how to do I [TS]

  could make this thing have bells and whistles [TS]

  and be awesome in this cool features like no make it as dumb as possible get done with it like this I was at that point [TS]

  I was trying to not distract myself from writing which of not strike myself from writing any more by making the engine [TS]

  but I'm also not writing but anyway back then it was like Don't spend time writing the engine you do this all day. [TS]

  It's stupid. [TS]

  Make the dumbest thing you can possibly do that works and I did and it's super dumb [TS]

  and you know it didn't stop me from writing but the thing that I think has made me like try new things and stuff [TS]

  or whatever is kind of the the brutal nature of the tech job market starting in the mid to late ninety's [TS]

  and that I've had a lot of jobs and you know like how did I get to use them S.Q.L. My S.Q.L. [TS]

  Sequelae Oracle Informix post-arrest like you're not going to get experience in all those databases probably in one [TS]

  place even if you're there from the beginning when it's like three guys. Maybe I'll touch on one or two of them. [TS]

  But like how will you ever take a in-depth survey of all these different areas projects where you do it by taking [TS]

  having like seven different jobs in the first place you work. [TS]

  There is no database you get to pick something a second place maybe is my sequence there [TS]

  but if you decide to use postgresql a victim of a very fine like [TS]

  when you make commitments like that like they tend to last for a long time you know if you're somebody coming they're [TS]

  already using Oracle you are going to come in there you know you know what I really like to try out post-crisis like [TS]

  well we're using Oracle so you know get a different job [TS]

  and language is the same way like if you're a web developer Yes everybody that works has use Perl in some fashion [TS]

  but the proportion of my time spent writing prose is very wide. [TS]

  For example the company where I use post-arrest extensively a huge amount of the code was in stored procedures [TS]

  and post-arrest and various points I was mostly a post present day to based designer slash sword procedure writer [TS]

  and Informix We also use a lot of stored procedures. [TS]

  And like if you're writing an application that is mostly essentially a java script application that just talks to to a [TS]

  faceless backend the face is back and it's pretty boring and the entire application lives on the client side [TS]

  and so you are at that point you're writing a job script application. [TS]

  It's it's not a node where it's you know server side javascript client side but all the frameworks like what [TS]

  and what framework are using you know how do I get these frameworks going from plain old Dom to like prototype dojo [TS]

  Jake Weary you know angular Amber's backbone underscore like how do you get to use all those you're not going to use [TS]

  all that one place because once you start building application on top of one of those you're probably going to keep [TS]

  building it that way [TS]

  and so well you know degrees real popular now so we should really we really pick the wrong parts [TS]

  when you decide to do everything with prototype and you know rails at that a little bit [TS]

  and to some degree as well as like well you know how many thousands of lines are in this application now do you want to [TS]

  rewrite it with Jake warier or do we just continue plowing bravely on board [TS]

  and so yeah changing jobs not using not voluntarily but more like you know the company starts to go down the tubes [TS]

  or you know have layoffs or or changes direction [TS]

  or whatever you getting a job it's a new opportunity learn a lot of new things even if the whole time like I'm just a [TS]

  web developer as a web developer Meanwhile developer means being multi-lingual learning you name it like even C.S.S. [TS]

  Like C.S.S. [TS]

  You don't know if you know that if you know the specs but there's all languages on top of the I has like less [TS]

  and sass and stuff. [TS]

  You'll find yourself learning new languages all the time just to keep up with the constant amazing churn in web [TS]

  technologies and you are [TS]

  and you will build products on whatever the web technologies are at the time that your company choose or you choose [TS]

  or whatever [TS]

  and then you go to the next shop they'll be different set of technologies not that I enjoy moving jobs I don't I wish I [TS]

  could say one job for you know I don't I don't like switching jobs I find it stressful. [TS]

  But the plain fact is that I have switched jobs one times [TS]

  and I think that has forced me more than anything to learn new technologies that make sense. [TS]

  I'm a little surprised that neither of you seems to dedicate the time outside of work to do this. [TS]

  But let's also not lose sight of the fact that you have children [TS]

  and I do not have probably relates more than just a little bit. [TS]

  I mean I read a lot about it like I mean what I had about you know I have never written a significant program Objective [TS]

  C. [TS]

  but I feel like I know the language I don't you know and I'm never in any way these frameworks [TS]

  but I know a lot about them. [TS]

  It's like yes it's kind of like a Della concert [TS]

  and of like well I just read a lot of books about it is true I did read a lot of articles I read a lot of books read a [TS]

  lot of Ruby Python code read a lot. No Jazz code read headers from cocoa then to see what it's like. [TS]

  I'm not coding in those [TS]

  but I feel like by surveying them I am I don't know if it's the same thing as like it's certainly not the same thing as [TS]

  a real project but you kind of get a sense for what's out there [TS]

  and so it's not entirely alien to like why am I reading these big these big long Russ tutorials want to read all the [TS]

  documentation about go. Because I have a project in mind as we're going to use them. [TS]

  Probably not but I have an academic interest in that type of thing. [TS]

  I think reading through it gives you an idea of what it might be like to program and actually I did. [TS]

  I did look at go recently because everyone could tell me I should. [TS]

  It does look really interesting [TS]

  and I think if I were to go through the trouble of learning a whole new web language that might be the one I would go [TS]

  to because it seems like it's made with with my sensibilities pretty well aligned. [TS]

  So anyway this should be a great opportunity to talk about our second sponsor which is Lynda dot com that is L Y N D A [TS]

  dot com Lynda dot com offers thousands of online video courses in software creative and business skills. [TS]

  Everything from my lessons of development to things like Photoshop or Lightroom. [TS]

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  Now I I mean I've seen some of their videos I've I've learned a lot from them for my podcast editing I went through [TS]

  some other videos on logic and audio audio engineering [TS]

  and it's it's great I mean you got to see this you know Katie Holmes last time you got to see like how you know they [TS]

  have the video and then they have next to it they have a transcript and it tracks [TS]

  and transcript shows you it highlights where you are what's being said so you can [TS]

  and then you can scroll to the transcript to jump to any point videos you can make skim through [TS]

  and you can see oh I want to I want to hear about this topic right here in the transcript click on that because that [TS]

  point the video really well done. You can watch them on your i Pad and everything it's fantastic. [TS]

  They don't need Flash or any stupid stuff like that. [TS]

  Now relative to our recent discussions they have language they have courses in web development for instance that you [TS]

  can learn no J.S. You can learn angular Jass or copy script or as many people would tell me to learn. No S.Q.L. [TS]

  Databases. [TS]

  They have all these things you can also there's a whole course they recently added called programming for i OS seven [TS]

  for non-programmers so you can learn how to make an app if you're not a programmer there actually are about two [TS]

  or three of you out there who listen to the show who can tolerate us [TS]

  and yet who aren't programmers you you three people can finally learn to program if you want to programming for [TS]

  non-programmers for i OS seven this great course on the dot com You can even they recently so recently Adobe launched [TS]

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  and they have a course on that so you can learn how to edit your photos and manage them on the go. [TS]

  So this is all really fantastic stuff. It's high quality stuff made by people at the top of their fields. [TS]

  These are not like the little homemade youtube videos you see. Really fantastic quality. [TS]

  Top notch content you know I use myself you know. [TS]

  We also because of this self I really can't recommend them enough fantastic So thanks a lot to Lynda dot com L Y N D A [TS]

  dot com If you go to when the dot com slash A.T.P. [TS]

  You can start a free seven day trial that is L Y N D A dot com slash A.T.P. [TS]

  Thanks a lot Linda for sponsoring our show once again. [TS]

  Apple did something a little on Apple like today [TS]

  and they've announced in a West End beta program for regular people for non developers this is surprising to me. [TS]

  What did you guys think. [TS]

  I wasn't so old I can remember definitively one thing details of the old capitol three Developer her grandma [TS]

  or both of her image has changed over the years [TS]

  and right now it's like ninety nine dollars for the Iowa step program ninety nine dollars for the for the OST [TS]

  and Graham [TS]

  and those prices were a step down from the old program which was like you could be a select developer for like five [TS]

  hundred dollars a year you could be a perimeter developer for like twelve hundred [TS]

  and there was no I always told her maybe there was merely a at the tail end of that. [TS]

  But anyway there were several programs for i OS and I was ten [TS]

  but there was also a free tier where you could be a developer of the free tier [TS]

  and the things I can't remember at the freak here where the you got early seeds of the earlier us ten betas are not. [TS]

  Yeah so some I can write and tell me the exact details of what the free programs are like [TS]

  but anyway this is kind of a return to the free things like hey you can be a registered developer kind of sort of not [TS]

  really at Apple [TS]

  but it's not like if you're just interested in getting the pre-release software sign up for free you don't have to pay [TS]

  ninety nine dollars because I assume you're not going to you're not going to write your applications you just want to [TS]

  get the early versions of the OS which a lot of people did back in the day it's like well you got to be part of the [TS]

  program if you want early releases so you know even if you're not going to make your own application [TS]

  but isn't there why I'm always had to have a number of them act at all. [TS]

  I'm not writing mac applications but I have been a member of the mac developer program paying member for just years [TS]

  and years now because that's how you get there early releases [TS]

  and this is an example of the ability to get the early release [TS]

  and I soon nothing else except for just the early releases like no you know no developer technical support incidents no [TS]

  ability to sign apps and upload them to the apps aren't all that other stuff but a way for regular people. [TS]

  So you do need an Apple ID You do need to agree to a confidentiality thing where you're not going to talk about you [TS]

  know the features that you see and so on [TS]

  and so forth you do agree to let Apple like collect diagnostics from your computer [TS]

  and all the other normal stuff that you might imagine agreeing to if you decided to run Beta software. [TS]

  How about Apple and in return you get to see an early peek at things. So are you surprised by this. [TS]

  Not really because like you know like they're not first of all these people are not going to assume they're not going [TS]

  to get the same seeds the developers get it's going to probably Apple's going to take their time [TS]

  and release maybe you know developers maybe get five or six seeds [TS]

  and of those Apple pick like here's one seed that everybody gets in and will be a bunch of devotees [TS]

  and then one see that everybody gets an A budget of seeds [TS]

  but nobody's getting anything until someone goes on stage shows you know the new features [TS]

  and stuff is not as if you will be seeing some secret thing before everyone else everyone's going to see unstated of [TS]

  your P.C. [TS]

  There are going to be a bill to the beat of idiocy [TS]

  and you know at that point like well who cares if you get do you get that every day you see Bill do you get to build a [TS]

  couple weeks after that like the cat's out of the bag so I don't think that by signing up that's allowed to pay any [TS]

  money [TS]

  and I get to know all of Apple secrets you're not going to know any secrets like continue to go to the rumor sites if [TS]

  you want to see for the screen shots of Suppose that you know unreleased things this is merely a way to let you you [TS]

  know basically Apple is doing this because I think they want to wider testability of their west [TS]

  and they're trying it out on a Macas that's probably seems like a safer bet. [TS]

  There is one more people to try stuff out so they're not surprised when they really something to the pub. [TS]

  Because there's a very small number of developers [TS]

  and they have probably a less diverse set of hardware than than the market at large. [TS]

  And so I would prefer I think to get a wider testing of it so I said not not right away into certain builds [TS]

  and you know like we think you know maybe think two [TS]

  or three releases leading up to it these are the ones we want to test widely to check for you know can driver [TS]

  compatibility issues or issues or whatever. [TS]

  That's why Apple is doing this because Apple thinks will benefit them [TS]

  and make their software more robust it's not it's not them doing you a favor to let you see the software it is entirely [TS]

  hey we really need a wider testing base for you know a certain point in the development of our oil as it comes a point [TS]

  where we say we we know all we can know with our small set of internal testing and Q.A. [TS]

  and Our small set of developers are using this. [TS]

  If anyone want to sign up for a wider beta we would love to know like if something's crashing on some obscure [TS]

  configuration that we don't have here and we can collect the data and figure it out [TS]

  and maybe they'll consider doing that with I.I.S. Eventually as well. [TS]

  But I think the mac is like a safe place to try out this type of program you know I tend to agree. [TS]

  I thought that there were a couple of interesting things that came from this firstly something that occurred to me was [TS]

  it's a giving it's Apple participating in a little bit more outreach [TS]

  and a little bit more community involvement I know especially after Microsoft build. [TS]

  There's been a lot of comparison between Microsoft's approach to developers [TS]

  and Apple's approach to developers Now granted this isn't a developer specific program [TS]

  and that's kind of what I'm driving at is that you would think if Apple was going to reach out into the public at all [TS]

  in any capacity that perhaps it would be to be a little more friendly to developers I agree with what you said John [TS]

  that this is really about Apple doing what's good for Apple as Apple always does [TS]

  but it just seems kind of unfortunate that they're reaching out to the wrong group in the US. [TS]

  Nothing I was I was thinking about was what if they've learned from Iowa seven and I was seven. [TS]

  Even though a lot of the Nerds knew it was going to look really different in really flat [TS]

  and that's really how you would describe it but you know I mean it was it has depth [TS]

  and right it has depth of clarity and chance and edges away but any fray what if Craig Hockenberry is right. [TS]

  He wrote a really great post I think was a post maybe it was a series of tweets [TS]

  but you know what he wrote something recently saying hey there's a lot of indication that a West End is going to look [TS]

  pretty different in the next version. [TS]

  And his point was developers you should really start testing with some of the fonts we expect them to use and so on [TS]

  and so forth. [TS]

  Well what if this is queuing up [TS]

  or setting up for is a better way phrasing it a little bit more outreach to the public at large so I don't see we see [TS]

  the newest hand. [TS]

  It looks really really different and rather than nobody getting to see it [TS]

  and nobody getting to play with it except developers or those willing to pay one hundred dollars. [TS]

  Maybe they're trying to reach out to some of the super Apple nerds [TS]

  or maybe even like self-appointed evangelists if you will and say hey you try it out [TS]

  and you spread the word that this isn't so bad. [TS]

  I'm standing on a whole bunch of theory here but I don't make sense to me. [TS]

  Well it's not so much that they want one of them to be evangelists for them I think it's more like to use examples from [TS]

  O S ten instead of the I was seven things kind of like their attempts to handle auto saving getting rid of the save [TS]

  command by sending out what's probably going to be a fairly significant U.I. Overall of the O. S. [TS]

  To a wider group of people they hope to find out earlier rather than later that oh [TS]

  and everybody hates the new auto saving people and save at the back [TS]

  and I want to have a command kit like that's type of thing you could have found out in a wider early beta [TS]

  and that they only found out after the release and had to you know patch up in mountain lion. [TS]

  You know I mean like that's. [TS]

  Again it's serving apples not just hey let's see everything crashes or whatever but also if people flip out because [TS]

  when you see [TS]

  when all those people who are looking at rumor screenshot see something like that they may have trepidation about it [TS]

  but Apple has no way to get feedback from them and really like well a lot and think well I'm going to try [TS]

  and see what it's like when I use it [TS]

  but if all those people who are so enthusiastic going to reading a rumor site have the actual peer really so they go I [TS]

  think got to try it [TS]

  and said oh I can't even I can't tell what's what like you know for example you know these buttons with borders I can [TS]

  tell other buttons that isn't like Tex or you know that the eye was equivalent to like if there's some big U.I. [TS]

  Change that they're there they're not so sure about it they put it out to a wider audience they will get a look [TS]

  informed feedback instead of like I saw screenshots Alex like it's going to be terrible [TS]

  and be presumably through the mechanisms that they're going to distribute there'll be official channels to riches [TS]

  and that if you'd like not just complaining on Twitter or posting and web forums or whatever [TS]

  but actual feedback directly to Apple where people can write twenty paragraph missives about why they don't like the [TS]

  new look and how they can tell which one it was in the front anymore. [TS]

  Whenever they're going to say you know I mean yeah I make sense. Marco any thoughts on this. [TS]

  IMO I'm less excited about of the most people. [TS]

  I mean first of all it's mostly because I have zero interest in running a beta version of O S ten of my mac zero like [TS]

  the the only time I ever install a beta was when reading list was first added to it [TS]

  and I was tipped off that this was a thing in the betas [TS]

  and I should see it at the time I still I still own Instapaper [TS]

  and so I signed over the developer program paid one hundred bucks and you know to see this reading listening [TS]

  and see if you know how worried I had to be basically and. [TS]

  And even though I saw it on a laptop that I didn't care that much about because I'm like it's so important to me that [TS]

  my computer work perfectly as much as possible and ever [TS]

  and whenever my computer does not work perfectly as much as possible. [TS]

  It's it's very disruptive and it's potentially very costly to me. [TS]

  So I I always want to make sure that that I'm OK in that regard you know [TS]

  and so it's just not worth me running the betas for the most part ever I do an i Phone because the i Phone isn't [TS]

  important to me if the i Phone you know if my i Phone reboot twice a day that's annoying [TS]

  but you know a well it's more important for me and I was because my software runs [TS]

  and I was it's more important for me to do to get into that as well as possible [TS]

  and to have my software running on my main phone someone's unlike Iowa seven comes out that changes a whole bunch about [TS]

  the entire parity you are the entire style. [TS]

  It's good to start getting that ingrained in me earlier so I can develop for it well things like that [TS]

  but because of those apply to me you know it's on the O S ten side I just don't care at all. [TS]

  Now you know maybe the problem was not enough people were testing things on the left hand side to make it to make the [TS]

  testing really worthwhile to Apple or to accomplish their goals because you know do you see them doing this for us. [TS]

  I sure as hell don't because I like the I was baited like everyone who want to pay to get it you know they find some [TS]

  developer to get them to add it to their account and add their device to their account and they get the beta [TS]

  or everyone pulls together you know money [TS]

  and buys a slot on someone's you know there's all these weird things people do to get Iowa State as these days [TS]

  and you know the reason they don't really need to do it there [TS]

  and they probably won't do it there is because there's all this demand around Iowa Spears all the demand probably isn't [TS]

  really there for the last ten betas [TS]

  and partly because you know Macs aren't as interesting as i Phones There are a few people have them in part that's just [TS]

  because O.-S. Ten doesn't change that much. Maybe this next Beta will be so different. [TS]

  You know maybe maybe ten ten will be so different that everyone will want to. [TS]

  Who knows but I'm guessing they weren't getting enough people testing [TS]

  and that's why you got you had things like the crazy G. [TS]

  Mail problems and Mavericks that like why was not caught in the bay. [TS]

  Or you know stuff like that because I'm guessing most people who are in the U.S. [TS]

  Ten betas probably have the same the same priorities I do in that they probably don't want to run them on their main [TS]

  work machines so they probably are like you know developers who make mac apps who want to make sure their mac apps work [TS]

  so they probably run a minute V.M. or On some other hardware that that's not their primary stuff. [TS]

  They and then they just test their app you know. [TS]

  So if that's what most of the testers are doing it's an apple best interest to try to broaden that Hester base [TS]

  but again I don't I don't see this is that big of a deal I don't see how many people who are not developers and [TS]

  or who are willing to pay for the deliver account before I will see how many people are going to really get who are [TS]

  going to be dying to install what's probably going to be a boring beta of a board no as an unborn product because [TS]

  they're all pretty mature at this point you know speaking of the G. [TS]

  Mail thing like that's one aspect of you know even if you do install the betas like I have to do of course for primary [TS]

  view if you that's something that you do whether you're a developer or the writing [TS]

  or view whatever you're doing with the betas if you're if you're one of the people who has an account like for a reason [TS]

  now because you're part of the press or because you're a developer you almost never use it against your real data. [TS]

  So you're not going to use your real email account or your real contacts [TS]

  and with good reason because if you had done that you would learn eventually that some early beta version of an O. [TS]

  A scramble your contacts [TS]

  and I said you always have usually multiple test accounts multiple test i Cloud accounts multiple game sender accounts [TS]

  multiple everything like you know the army mail accounts dummy contacts like you don't put your real data. [TS]

  And so are you going to notice the email bug all you're doing is just like you're not actually sending [TS]

  and receiving e-mail you're not actually keeping track of what you're marking read and what you haven't [TS]

  and so you wouldn't notice these bugs because you're like yeah yeah like why would you even go to the Mail app unless [TS]

  you just want to see what the new features are whatever if you don't use if you're real human I really like her didn't [TS]

  mark that messages on Reddit is it. [TS]

  Test messages maybe you would notice at all [TS]

  and I think this actually will go to a different pool of people who want to use it [TS]

  and who are going to use it with their real data [TS]

  and I would say at this point if you find this program exciting you want to use these betas. [TS]

  Keep in mind that like Marco said he doesn't use it I think on his main machine I never install beta versions of a [TS]

  stand on my machine. [TS]

  Ever like I have a complete separation because i even [TS]

  when it's like oh this is the golden master like oh have you installed the older No I wait until I can get it from the [TS]

  mac app store [TS]

  and didn't they have a thing that this most recent release for like the build number change the last minute [TS]

  or whatever. [TS]

  I never ever ever install anything [TS]

  or maybe see on my real computer I always get it used on you know I would always get it from the actual CD that would [TS]

  come in the mail you know like a retail CD or D.V.D. [TS]

  or These days the actual one from the mac app store I won't even usually install the datto release. [TS]

  Well you know it Cajun Lee I'll be wary about that been in the past he releases them pretty good. [TS]

  So if you're thinking of doing this Apple has all these crazy warnings everything have a back up [TS]

  or whatever like by all means if you're enthusiastic you know what you're getting into [TS]

  but realize like it could erase your entire hard drive like you could scramble your contacts [TS]

  and I don't know where I got back it's what if it's scrambles all your contacts [TS]

  and I can wear those back ups like how are you going to restore that i Cloud is very opaque [TS]

  and it's difficult to wrangle it back into shape so be aware of what you're getting into I imagine that since this is [TS]

  free a lot of people you'd like oh awesome I'm going to try the beta [TS]

  and then it will hold them in some way of the be like [TS]

  when the band like it's you know that's you knew what you were getting into [TS]

  but you don't know if you can do the other going to Iran. [TS]

  That's part of the experience I did the same thing back in the day with like you know it was a betas [TS]

  and stuff where they were just terrible and data destroying and it's that that's I guess it's over. [TS]

  I'm trying not to generalize and say I was going to like a bunch of enthusiastic teenagers destroying their parents [TS]

  and I guess with a divergence there [TS]

  but like I was that teenager you know why why not why why shouldn't it be like I think that's kind of a rite of passage [TS]

  but so. [TS]

  Because we want to say that I recommend nobody joined this program but I think that people will and I think [TS]

  and I think that the people who do join the program will be providing a different kind of testing than the existing [TS]

  people who pay ninety nine dollars a year. [TS]

  We're also sponsor this week this is sponsoring this week as a print on cardstock. [TS]

  Thanks Marilyn because of a printer loading error. So I have my state sponsor read this week. P.P. [TS]

  Lo better exactly what does that mean. [TS]

  Hey are either the both of us A It's first time for everything kids new relic is an all in one web application [TS]

  performance management tool A P M lets you see performance from the end user experience down to your servers [TS]

  and down to each line of your server side code. [TS]

  Our friends at new relic asked us to take a minute and say a big Thank You to all you didn't [TS]

  or that they're building all this great stuff that we all know and love. [TS]

  They're sending a shout out to the developers the software geeks the code jockeys to those brief you who see things [TS]

  differently. High fives to all you rule breakers and disruptors. [TS]

  Here's to working nights to wearing oversized concentration Hansing headphones upon your furrowed brow as new relics [TS]

  thanks you. Nowadays if you're in any business you're in the software business. [TS]

  Software powers or apps runs our databases manages our accounts and runs an e-commerce site and email programs. [TS]

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  and your business is more successful. [TS]

  How's that for a win win new relic monitors every move your application makes across the entire stack [TS]

  and show you what's happening right now. You can zero in on problems quickly with transaction tracing S.Q.L. [TS]

  and Not skew will performance analytics. [TS]

  I'm going to go at that now I think application topography mapping and deployment history makers [TS]

  and comparisons to I don't even have to things are but they sound awesome. If I was actually up to date with the web. [TS]

  Development I would probably know these things are but I don't but this sounds really awesome they even support P.H.P. [TS]

  So they support Ruby P.H.P. [TS]

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  right now to monitor your application performance or go to new relics dot com slash A.T.P. For a thirty day free trial. [TS]

  All you gotta do is deploy their agent and will start collecting data immediately [TS]

  and you'll be able to quickly see inside your avatar finding hot spots fixing issues and optimizing performance. [TS]

  Once again go to new relic dot com slash A.T.P. For a free thirty day trial. [TS]

  Thanks a lot to do relic for sponsoring our show once again. [TS]

  We learned today about some new thunderbolt information about third generation Thunderbolt [TS]

  and I'm not really that excited about it mostly because I don't plan on getting a new computer any time soon [TS]

  but Marco do you want to tell us about this. [TS]

  Well there's not a whole lot known yet so there's not really much of discuss I just save it for you know three years [TS]

  from now when these ports actually come out. [TS]

  But basically intel there are some leaked until roadmap document that showed details in the next thunderbolt version [TS]

  thunderbolt three are probably called and [TS]

  and basically able to cling on MacRumors basically Dell in the bandwidth of two forty gig gigabits per second. [TS]

  And they're going to actually change the connector which is probably going to be interesting to me they're going to get [TS]

  a smaller connector that also apparently will be able to charge of two hundred watts. Yes that's ridiculous. [TS]

  Underscore Kyle Cronin in the chat room just asked a really good question which direction does the power go here. [TS]

  Does the peripheral power the computer or vice versa. [TS]

  I thought us that on Twitter they were saying you could almost power displayed and you tweet that today. [TS]

  Yeah that's interesting though that yeah I didn't think about that direction. All this says is it enables. [TS]

  System charging up to one hundred eighty C. Did it already. Speaking of A.T.C. The other A.D.C. [TS]

  Apple display connector power and the twenty two inch apples [TS]

  and over display there was one one cabling it sort of this is this is the other way. [TS]

  This is the other way that this is saying that your thunder like a thunderbolt display could could charge your laptop [TS]

  right without the little dangly mags a thing like RAM somebody pointed out on Twitter also that this is the proposed [TS]

  code name Alpine Ridge controller for Intel [TS]

  and this is apparently still three generations away here something it's pretty far off. [TS]

  So we're probably not seeing it soon. [TS]

  It's probably a year [TS]

  or two at least I think it might be sooner than we think because like it's maybe not across the line [TS]

  but soon enough that I think the changing connector is a little bit upsetting because it's like I know we did one apple [TS]

  to wait any longer to do what it's you know to really want to be a lawyer for the night pro [TS]

  but even if it's like no one one [TS]

  and a half to three year gap like you're going to change a thunderbolt connector ready we just got thunderbolt ports on [TS]

  our macro I can and they are going to change and the difference is one point five millimeters and height. [TS]

  And I mentioned on Twitter that I have been staring at the edges of various Retina MacBook Pros in meetings that work [TS]

  with us to do in boring meetings thinking about thinking about which one of those connectors is going to get thinner [TS]

  next because if you look at the side what we have is kind of a menagerie of MacBook Pros around the office depending on [TS]

  who got their hardware when you can see them slowly getting skinnier [TS]

  and you could see like that you can report disappears up the mag's squish look like the U.S.B. [TS]

  Is practically edge to edge and you can see them squeezing and squeezing in really this headroom there [TS]

  but the way Apple designs their laptops there's a curved section that sort of gives you a place for you to hook your [TS]

  fingers underneath and then there is a flat section is perpendicular to the table and that's where the ports go [TS]

  and they squeeze that thing down like a mag say U.S.B. [TS]

  and Thunderbolt [TS]

  or squeeze pretty tightly in the flat section now it's like if you want to make a laptop then you could start giving up [TS]

  the low. [TS]

  A lip that you talk your fingers under [TS]

  but you don't want to make something that's like as thin as just a flat section a flat on a table he will be able to [TS]

  pick it up either trying to get your fingernails underneath it to try to pull it up off the table so things have to get [TS]

  thinner and you know Thunderbolt is probably you know U.S.P. [TS]

  Is probably the first one but we already know we talked about show the new U.S.B. [TS]

  Three connector that will be skinnier so that takes care of the U.S.B. Ports. [TS]

  That leaves thunderbolt as potentially the thickest thing besides mag safe [TS]

  and mag save I think is due to be revised as well because to everyone seems to hate [TS]

  but due to the design it's like well it's a big magnetic service [TS]

  and people had mag safe too because it's not as secure as the old one because they made it you know they made skinnier [TS]

  if you make it skinnier still want to be even worse [TS]

  and maybe it's time for a new magnetic power connector that I mean I don't think they want to insert dissolve [TS]

  when it's supposed to come off easily but I think they could use a desire is in as well the Thunderbolt. [TS]

  It seems kind of early for them to be making the thing than are and I'm a little bit worried about that. [TS]

  I hope this I hope this does come sooner rather than later I hope actually twenty fifteen that we would see this [TS]

  sometime in county [TS]

  or twenty fifteen if only for the redneck angle you know because now finally if I only in theory would have been with [TS]

  to do my desired quad twenty seven inch retina resolution display it still depend on like a new display port specs [TS]

  and everything else [TS]

  but this was a bunch of acronyms that Syria provides us like I don't know what it might to encompass is I don't even [TS]

  know it. TB two years so maybe one of those maybe one of those things would could could power. [TS]

  I'm under the resolution that I want but change the connector is a dimension of the an adapter [TS]

  and adapter you're going to get. [TS]

  It's like two years at the thunderbolt appears already to do that because I guess because they want to do all over [TS]

  again. [TS]

  Well and to be fair I mean how many people really have been able to vice [TS]

  and so far it's not going to be a massive problem to have all these people buy a little you know thirty dollars doctors [TS]

  are probably even less than that I mean it's you know the whole problem with the devil is that no one's using it. [TS]

  The stagnation of the mark. [TS]

  It is an advantage because it's like well if I hadn't a thing to plug in I wouldn't in the death ever since I have [TS]

  nothing to plug in any Well I mean I guess even Apple's monitor is even like you know for the people like you doing [TS]

  what I do with the MacBook Air The Thunderbolt display I bet a lot of people do that set up where you have thunderbolt [TS]

  plugged into your laptop you know so you don't have so we don't have a dock. [TS]

  The stupid doc they have are busy laptops the snap a thing and eight hundred connectors connect [TS]

  but you do it all to Thunderbolts right well now you need like the portable display first that came with the mag they [TS]

  wanted to adapter like used to get that with a display so you could you know attach the charging thingy to the laptops [TS]

  and now also come with a thunderbolt wanted to adapt for what it's worth. [TS]

  Ever since a thunderbolt display came out I have lusted after it and I'm way too cheap to buy one [TS]

  but the thought of not having to have you know I don't know four or five [TS]

  or six cables to plug in every time I plug in my computer when I get home and only have two is just sounds awesome [TS]

  and to bring this down to just one day for reading this right [TS]

  and the power would flow from display into laptop I mean that sounds great. [TS]

  It genuinely genuinely does the problem is that one connector is probably going to crappy because I can tell you how we [TS]

  don't disconnect a laptop a lot [TS]

  but I've done it enough that every time I do it like it does not feel like a robusto you can connect [TS]

  and disconnect there's a thousand times [TS]

  and it'll be fine every time I'm do it I'm like I'm so conscious of like the potential number of connecting [TS]

  disconnected cable has in it because of that little chip in that thing it's like a long step things take me out of the [TS]

  side of your laptop. [TS]

  It's not as you know you feel like I can plug unplug the lighting port in my i Phone forever [TS]

  and I feel fine about it until like maybe the cable will frayed or whatever I'll get a new one. [TS]

  The Thunderbolt thing going to the side of especially a MacBook Air feels pretty perilous [TS]

  and I have little faith that the one point five millimeter thinner version will feel any less perilous unless they [TS]

  inverted and I do like a lightning style connector but I'm not holding my breath. [TS]

  Well I read somewhere maybe this is just somebodies reaction to this [TS]

  but I read somewhere that you know maybe one of the reasons they were read one of the connectors that the new one. [TS]

  Really isn't that great that it does fall out easily or become slightly pulled easily [TS]

  and you know there's really like there's no part of its design it's really high friction [TS]

  or no little locking ball bearings like the lightning has [TS]

  or anything like that so it's I've never felt that honorable things were secure I mean I mostly use use it like for the [TS]

  Internet and if it feels precarious right. But yeah exactly exactly. [TS]

  All right this is a little bit random but I keep meaning to ask you [TS]

  when we were asked on Twitter what's the overcast update. I'm almost in beta. [TS]

  That's basically it which is probably what I said last time but now I'm WAY closer this time. [TS]

  Today I was writing the directory to give you some idea you know making the ad pod casting work more than just search. [TS]

  That's what I'm doing right now. It's getting close. The logging thing is done. [TS]

  You know all that all they can stuff is done. Yeah getting there that's about it. Isn't that interesting right now. [TS]

  That's fair I just don't think we talked about in a while. Let's go to an easy our i Pad sales leveling leveling off. [TS]

  There's been a little bit of chatter about this lately. Yeah. This I wanted to talk about. [TS]

  So there's there was this post by oh boy. Go ahead John. Save mark or please Joey get say thank you so much all right. [TS]

  So he wrote this post which will into in the show notes. [TS]

  Basically saying or suggesting that i Pad sales have or about to be revealed to have leveled off [TS]

  and I agree were linked to it and added his own commentary as well [TS]

  and you know so the theory here is that you know maybe i Pad an overall tablet sales are not doing as they're growing [TS]

  as well as as everyone expected and you know maybe that maybe tablets have been overestimated [TS]

  and maybe maybe the expectations of tablets have been too high. [TS]

  So I want to talk about this because I personally have really had had trouble like making my i Pad useful to me [TS]

  and I've heard so many people who that's not the case for so many people are finding incredibly interesting creative [TS]

  ways to use their i Pad to get other worked on or just bring our Pavin they go on trips and not bring a laptop [TS]

  or whatever else. [TS]

  And I have not had that experience at all I mean [TS]

  and part of that just because the work I do you know being a lot of programming and stuff like that [TS]

  but even even things that aren't programming I find myself [TS]

  when I'm on the i Pad I find myself like saving things for [TS]

  when I go back to my mac because of just be so much faster [TS]

  and easier to do it there you know for me the limitations of I.O.'s work on a phone you know that limitation of how how [TS]

  apps are so incredibly isolated from each other and so you know multitasking is very limited. [TS]

  There is no like you know the document model of I O. S. [TS]

  Where you know you don't have like your files you just have each app [TS]

  and it has its own little silo of data you know all that stuff makes it very hard for me to work the way I want to work [TS]

  and so I have not found I've had to be very useful and in fact I hardly ever use one. [TS]

  I have I have stopped buying every version of it even for developer testing purposes. [TS]

  You know now that I have the retina many [TS]

  and my wife has the i Pad Air I really can't see as buying the next ones that come out either because these are going [TS]

  to be fine for a while. Yeah I'll remind you it sounds like you need an i Pad Pro Fargo right. [TS]

  Well so and so I wonder like you know how how many people just the case for leaks or for me what I've found [TS]

  and this is this is why I think the i Phone one it might make this more interesting. [TS]

  I found that you know there's the things that a phone does well and the i Pad does does most of the things well [TS]

  but the things that if the phone does poorly the i Pad doesn't do a lot of them much better. [TS]

  And the i Pad is worse than the phone and a few major ways number. [TS]

  One it is not always with your phone is always in your pocket [TS]

  or your i Pad you might have it with you in my case I almost never have it with me that doesn't fit in clothing [TS]

  or jacket pockets [TS]

  and I don't carry bags big enough for most of those places I go so you know the phone is always with you [TS]

  and your phone always has a data connection for most people. [TS]

  I Pads Yes you can get them within a connections but it's not the common case I don't think. [TS]

  And even if you have a connection like I feel kind of bad paying twenty bucks a month for the data connection that I [TS]

  hardly ever use but my have had becomes even less useful if I don't have that but it's on [TS]

  and happy about that most people just don't get data connections or data plans for their i Pads [TS]

  and so you know that major difference between Always being with you and always have [TS]

  and always having a data connection that actually makes the i Pad even less useful for me then than it normally is [TS]

  and so I have to wonder like you know I've said before I don't think it's wise to ever bet against a smartphone. [TS]

  I think the smartphone is an amazing ideal and it's like the intersection of the best of so many things [TS]

  and it's so good and so useful [TS]

  and there's so much potential in the smartphone for me if it's a smartphone had a little bigger screen which probably [TS]

  about two in the in the non Apple world. That's old news and they've had big screens for years. [TS]

  I really don't think I'm going to have a use for an i Pad at all even today. [TS]

  If if if my i Pad got stolen today please don't come still [TS]

  but if it ever got stolen today I'm pretty sure I would not replace it. And so but you know it might like my phone. [TS]

  The combination of a phone or computer is so great for me [TS]

  and I'm wondering you know whether whether the i Pad is really necessary long term as a product category [TS]

  and whether it's succeeding long term in the product category or whether it will become. [TS]

  No more of a more of a new narrow niche product as most people realize that a phone [TS]

  and maybe a computer is good enough. So I would like to argue with everything you just said. Cool. [TS]

  So I had an i Pad one I had in i Pad third gens of the first written i Pad [TS]

  and now I have what I like to call the retina Pad Mini which Dr Steven Hackett knots which makes you want to call it [TS]

  that even more. And I got to the retina Pad Mini with L.T. [TS]

  For the first time I'd always had wife I only i Pads and this one I got with L.T.E. [TS]

  I got a horizon retina had many and then right around the time I got it T. [TS]

  Mobile started doing that crazy thing where you can buy a SIM for ten dollars one time [TS]

  and then they'll give you two hundred megs of data for free every single month. [TS]

  And the idea is or I presume the idea is that it's a gateway drug to get you to pay T. Mobile for data. [TS]

  Well what I found is the combination of moving from big i Pad to i Pad Mini as paired with this team mobile plan that [TS]

  really quite honestly gives me enough data for pretty much any usage I would want away from a wife a hot spot like a [TS]

  friend's house or family member's house or at home or work. [TS]

  The combination of having a healthy i Pad with just a little bit of data every single month [TS]

  and having it be an i Pad Mini made me fall in love with this i Pad Mini so much more than I did my prior i Pads which [TS]

  I kind of went in and out of love with. I would use them a lot then I would use them at all. But I'm not at all. [TS]

  And I love my i Pad Mini and I wonder if I wonder if the by virtue of it having L.T.E. [TS]

  and Either if I could tether against my i Phone which I can't because I'm still in the eight hundred to unlimited plan [TS]

  or if I had. [TS]

  A plan wherein I could share my data with my i Pad for very little extra per month [TS]

  or you know any of these combinations or the T. [TS]

  Mobile thing that I've done makes me absolutely adore my i Pad And generally speaking [TS]

  when I travel I don't bring a computer with me unless I'm travelling for work [TS]

  and in fact we were travelling all of last week [TS]

  and the only reason I had a computer with me was because I had to record the podcast while it while we were on the road [TS]

  and if it wasn't for that I would have let the computer at home. [TS]

  So it's funny because everything you just said it makes sense to me [TS]

  but I like my i Pad for all the reasons you don't like your i Pad [TS]

  and I John what do you think about this I think the thing that's holding the i Pad back is two aspects one is that as I [TS]

  said in past shows I was talking about the i Pad Pro If the i Pad wants to take over more of the functionality [TS]

  currently occupied by a P.C. [TS]

  That has to expand its ability to do the things that P.C.'s can do in some vague yet unspecified way possibly having a [TS]

  larger screen possibly better multitasking and possibly better. [TS]

  Like you imagine better interact all his communication all the things we discussed right so that is like OK walking [TS]

  into a that well the P.C. Market is not as big of the phone market for market's growing P.C. [TS]

  Market I think is there's growing slowly or possibly shrinking. [TS]

  So say the i Pad takes over some portion that that's still to get to the kind of growth that people are expecting from [TS]

  it like that still like gangbusters [TS]

  but that's one that's one area where it probably has to move if it wants to get some growth in the other areas it's got [TS]

  to come way way down in price because that's what it's competing against is psychologically if not in actuality it's [TS]

  competing against cell phones which are free [TS]

  and they're not free like all they cost thousands of dollars a year for your cell phone plans an i Phone is incredibly [TS]

  expensive. [TS]

  All that is true [TS]

  but psychologically speaking cell phones are practically free because most people in first world countries feel like [TS]

  they need to have a cell phone and eventually all cell phones will. [TS]

  What we currently call smart phones [TS]

  and it's like you know it's not for you because a lot of money the people who like what I have to have a phone. Right. [TS]

  The tablet is competing against nothing like that. [TS]

  If you don't buy a tablet you will just you will spend zero because like you know would you say oh you know what I'm [TS]

  going to replace my phone with a tablet. [TS]

  Well that's a fact the phablet phenomenon right but but yeah [TS]

  but there are other competing answers like they consider a phone is like I have to pay for that that's a sunk cost [TS]

  and you know that's basically free and now you tell me how to pay more [TS]

  and like the thing is if they have some task they need to do that is just not convenient or possible to do [TS]

  and even a very large phone their choice is a P.C. or A tablet and P.C. [TS]

  There are traditionally more expensive but tablets especially Apple tablets are still pretty darn expensive. [TS]

  If Apple could like say say the i Pad Mini Retina i bet me with ninety nine dollars just some fantasy scenario there. [TS]

  There's no doubt that that will move the needle on sales [TS]

  and even if you know you think well I'm not sure how I'm going to use this [TS]

  and like I'm not I'm not sure how that would shake out [TS]

  but I just think like the idea that every single home that has a smartphone would also have an i Pad just hanging [TS]

  around just to be that thing like the equip the modern the future world equivalent of a magazine under skin to sit on a [TS]

  couch and read a magazine we're not going to read a magazine you're going to look at web pages on your i Pad [TS]

  or I'm just going to go up to my room and watch some Netflix or or stream something from my D.V.R. [TS]

  or Whatever like the idea that just having a flat screen even if I never leave the house just as a convenient thing to [TS]

  have around the house and I think the uses of it are fine but [TS]

  when it cost seven hundred dollars you're like do I need to do a few one of those usual things seven hundred dollars [TS]

  worth no I don't even five hundred dollars I got you know and I think of so a lot more than if they go down in price [TS]

  and you know I guess the three things the final thing is that many people have mentioned they're just a little bit too. [TS]

  There's a little bit too good so far I know so many people who are using i Pad ones and see no reason to upgrade. [TS]

  That is the pregnant and the company of the phone where there's many reasons upgrade because of the subsidies [TS]

  and all the other things. We're never like it's tough you know. [TS]

  Personally I don't feel like they should because that's why I spent five hundred dollars [TS]

  and I've had I'm keeping it for years and the second thing is well you know I guess unless game stop working [TS]

  or they don't care than on i OS seven like I guess they do kind of cycle down to the kids and let them use it [TS]

  but it's just they are incredibly long lasting [TS]

  and I mean surprisingly durable for a five hundred dollar piece of glass you think of all the like destroyed by now. [TS]

  But I've seen so many go through the grubby paws of kids [TS]

  and just they survive in a home environment those things survive for a long period of time [TS]

  and so if there were ninety nine dollars you'd like every year to go get a new one of these flat things because what we [TS]

  used to like you know it's so used to like read stuff [TS]

  and read the you know read web pages better than reading it on my phone I want gramophones battery [TS]

  and I used to watch a video this is a little bit bigger screen and if you can get the price way down [TS]

  and if you get a little bit more capable that will make sure there's an i Pad in everybody's home [TS]

  and that would also make sure that when people go on trips like maybe I don't need to buy a laptop [TS]

  and I can get into the P.C. [TS]

  Market by just saying I can take this with me because I can do more or less everything I need to do [TS]

  and you would say what it when you reach your limit. [TS]

  Can developers drivetrain do Probably not [TS]

  but can you know you keep going down can people do regular word processing work [TS]

  but still pretty annoying like that's where the i Pad programs in so there's not like Apple needs to like oh you need [TS]

  to cite or I present a loss right now but I think just the natural if you look at the Apple T.V. [TS]

  It took a while for the Apple T.V. To get down to ninety nine dollars. [TS]

  The i Pad It's going to take even longer because that screen is tough to really push down much farther [TS]

  but give it five or seven years and [TS]

  when Apple has a tablet things that are for that span the same range as i Pods do I think there is a legitimate reason [TS]

  for every house that has a smartphone to have a tablet device [TS]

  and if Apple can get its price point down it could be that device so I think that's where the growth potential is for [TS]

  tablets. Yeah that makes sense. The thing that I think about is what is what is really holding the i Pad especially. [TS]

  But the i Phone and I just I was in general what's what's holding it back [TS]

  and you know we've talked in the past around this time last year about what's the low hanging fruit for I.O.'s [TS]

  and I guess maybe low hanging fruit is a poor way of phrasing it but what's the thing that bothers everyone the most [TS]

  and you know copy paste is the seminal example from years back that it infuriated everyone to not have copy paste. [TS]

  Obviously that had to show up quickly. Well interrupt communication. [TS]

  I feel like we're getting to the point that we're really going to need to crap or get off the pot [TS]

  or apples really you need to I mean is this the I don't want to get into a prediction episode [TS]

  but is this the time is that enough to make I.O.'s a little bit more powerful era of communication itself is it's oh [TS]

  it's a phrase with [TS]

  or around the concept around that we think first of all we all assume that I was eight will improve this somehow [TS]

  because there's a lot of you can see that there's a lot of the groundwork already laid in six [TS]

  and seven for this you have things like remote view controllers there's a few activity system you can you can tell that [TS]

  like they have theirs. [TS]

  They're making they're taking steps towards allowing this [TS]

  but the problem is that interpretation itself does not really solve the problem. [TS]

  It makes some things a little bit better. [TS]

  He says you know suppose I us does something very similar to the contract you're intense on minutes for an Android [TS]

  which is what most developers are asking them to do. [TS]

  Myself included I think they'll be great [TS]

  but I think a big part of the problem is the document model of the file system model. [TS]

  You know how how you where you store your data how you access your stored data how you know where things are are [TS]

  divided and you know where things are not accessible from and I think that you know there's. [TS]

  There's all the simplicity of these devices of not having to manage your files not have to figure out where things are [TS]

  not not having to you know go to your parents' house and see everything on the desktop [TS]

  and that they're part of his quote full because they're out of spaces for their icons you know you have one of those [TS]

  problems but that the amount of power that removes from usage is pretty dramatic [TS]

  and I think that more than anything is what limits. I went from being used in more productivity type roles. [TS]

  Apple Apple still holding the line on that and I think most people agree with the sentiment. [TS]

  And we just hope it like well presumably Apple has thought of this [TS]

  and has some solution like a big salad to show its file system [TS]

  and they just want to reproduce all the same problems like yeah that would solve it for geeks right. [TS]

  But a modular sandbox I guess but for everybody else it's like well siloed per app is simple [TS]

  but it has all these problems and we're all hoping for a solution that does not give up all the simplicity [TS]

  and go all the way back to destroy access to the file system again if only for security concerns. [TS]

  But has the benefits of being able to like you know what works [TS]

  and even normal people seem to grasp Dropbox because Dropbox essentially took the file system problem [TS]

  and narrowed it down to a single place kind of like the desktop which was the old place that everyone you mentioned [TS]

  that was the one place that people felt comfortable just put everything into stop [TS]

  and then what people do is like well I have all my crap on my desktop and that's the one place I know how to find [TS]

  and I make folders on my desktop for some projects and it's like it's like training wheels for the real file system [TS]

  and Dropbox is like that as well [TS]

  and it's like it's the same as the file system is just narrative that you drop out because of a desktop on start making [TS]

  folders in a Dropbox like the person if I start making folders I'd start with lots of stuff [TS]

  and they start organizing things [TS]

  and like you just want to say just a little bit farther like the whole file system is your oyster. [TS]

  It's not just the new folder one you can fold it anywhere under seventeen. So I I hope. [TS]

  It Apple doesn't give up but at a certain point like it's kind of like that you know that they give up [TS]

  and use tables C.S.S. [TS]

  Joke site from years ago is like at a certain point like Well Apple you've been thinking about this for years [TS]

  and if you really can't think of something that's better at a certain point you need to just like say we failed in our [TS]

  ability to give you something that's both simpler and equally powerful or close to as powerful [TS]

  and just give us back to forgive piles of them [TS]

  and I do not want them to do that I think that would be not only an admission of failure [TS]

  but an actual failure so I really keep hoping that they come up with some scheme that has the security benefits of [TS]

  sandboxing [TS]

  but that lets applications easily work multiple applications work on the same document I mean that's all part of my [TS]

  whole day cloudy i Pad provision is the idea of using multiple applications to make a sort of composite document [TS]

  or a composite or work on a project that has some images and some text files and some this [TS]

  and some that like like you would do on your mac [TS]

  when you're doing any sort of remotely complicated project without it being you know I just do everything in one app [TS]

  like even X. [TS]

  Goes on a direction Xcode is like yes it's a whole bunch of different things you've got images you've got header files [TS]

  you've got source code you and various builder documents you've got all the stuff [TS]

  but like it's all in Xcode I guess I guess some of the energetic ones that was the embedded image editor next code will [TS]

  know they've really just given up you think it is part seven right to the i Pad Pro [TS]

  and it's like hey you don't need to want to separate out all your stuff in one place. [TS]

  Does it seem like the i Pad app library is stagnating because it seems that way to me [TS]

  but because I'm not that into using my i Pad that could just be like you know because I used to be [TS]

  but it has been updated [TS]

  but whatever like what do you mean by that like what kind of apps you talking about specifically. [TS]

  It seems to me that you know again anecdotally So whatever this is worth I'm not seeing a lot of i Pad apps come out [TS]

  anymore that are interesting or exciting and a lot of the previously good apps. [TS]

  Still either have melted Iowa seven and Sir very dated [TS]

  or are just you know on really slow update cycles of the seemingly abandoned [TS]

  or some of them actually have been abandoned some of them have have been updated made worse. [TS]

  Like it seems like the i Pad was a priority for after filters for about two and a half years and now it's just not. [TS]

  And I can point to lots of you know if if this is the case beyond just what I'm seeing. [TS]

  I can think of lots of reasons why that might be the case. [TS]

  You know the I'm doing to write a blog post for this but I keep trying to do it [TS]

  but you know one of the biggest would be the App Store pricing model and the top list model [TS]

  and how that encourages the race to the bottom in pricing and very low prices made up of very large volume. [TS]

  All of that depends on there being very large volume [TS]

  but if the i Pad is not being used that much to buy a bunch of apps [TS]

  and if Instead most of them are being used to watch videos and browse the web [TS]

  and we know they don't sell nearly as well as i Phones do already. Maybe that's a big problem. [TS]

  I mean it's certainly it seems to me like maybe like to me one of the reasons why I'm not using the i Pad is because [TS]

  like the Twitter app is better on my phone. The I.R.S. [TS]

  Has acted better on my phone like half of things I do on on a my US devices like the i Phone apps I have an i Phone are [TS]

  better than any I can find on the i Pad is it just me [TS]

  or is this a broader thing I think the the sales numbers definitely aren't in focus the way more i Phones But I think [TS]

  there's a bifurcation of applications in the like in the beginning it was like a labyrinth of you know make all the [TS]

  Arabs everywhere [TS]

  and then eventually people learned which apps are better suited to its environment so to give an example these days of [TS]

  a new game comes out I don't have fear that there's not going to be an i Pad version [TS]

  and if there's anything like anything that has a do with like reading experience a magazine app a comic reader [TS]

  or something for watching video there's no i'm there's no concern that it's not going to have an i Pad version [TS]

  or even that. [TS]

  I think like a controlling other like the Tivo application I'm not concerned that's not going to anything is not sort [TS]

  of on the go. [TS]

  Because on the go style apps like Twitter clients [TS]

  or stuff like that I don't expect to find them on the I beg of those who like clearly focused on the phone anything [TS]

  that there's clearly something you want to use like a mobile type application that's going to be phone first [TS]

  or phone only whereas any application that benefits from having a larger screen that's going to be i Pad only your i [TS]

  Pad first and so I definitely do that see that split [TS]

  and I think I have the same frustration it's like well I know most of the time I'm not I'm not reading Twitter on my i [TS]

  Pad [TS]

  but I would like to have a universal version of whatever my favorite for a client as a matter of fact I do because he's [TS]

  terrific but those type of applications like glass board for example there's no i Pad version of that [TS]

  and it frustrates me I kind of make sense. [TS]

  But on the other hand if it's like a mobile on the go up but it's like when I'm on my i Pad I have to run that two X. [TS]

  Thing I just feel bad so I just think it's kind of the application splitting and going to where they need to go [TS]

  and unfortunately some of that split is if you need X. [TS]

  Number of sales to be profitable forget the i Pad because of the many i Pads out there [TS]

  but I think a lot of it is just appropriateness of screen size. [TS]

  Well and to answer your question Marco going to kind of ask myself [TS]

  and then I answered it with a different question which is what have I cited about what I'm going to fight about on the [TS]

  i Pad lately [TS]

  and I'm really excited that the one password I was seven update just came out that's universal waiting with bated [TS]

  breath for tweet but update for i OS seven and fantastic of two came out and really pumped about that. That's about it. [TS]

  I mean threes came out of the i Pad I was excited about that too [TS]

  but you see I'm saying like to your point there's not a lot that's been brand new that is happened on the i Pad [TS]

  fantastic I was a good example though that often really really really excited about that's happened months if not [TS]

  around a year now. Well the game's like if you're into playing games I mean there's a pretty pretty regular. [TS]

  Cycle of exciting new games that are available for the i Pad they come out I mean it's not you know like if there are [TS]

  TONS of the games to come out most of the graphics on the good games like the current ones like Monument Valley [TS]

  and before that was three years and then you had things like the room [TS]

  and you're walking like there's always lots of great software out there. [TS]

  Games that take advantage of large screen [TS]

  but I think a lot of the a lot of the i Pad the thing it was like the thing you have around the house. [TS]

  Yeah it's going to be a video app and threw it through are you going to consume stuff [TS]

  or it's going to be a comic reader through it you're going to get spending continual stream of money on comics I mean [TS]

  just as Marlen like is excited that the new version of comics ology I know [TS]

  but this is like it's a fixture it becomes part of that appliance [TS]

  and it's an appliance to reach you funnel money so it's not like there's not money to be made there because if you have [TS]

  that app and use it to buy things [TS]

  or even just magazine subscriptions it's it's a continual faucet of money versus just like oh I can sell you one out [TS]

  for for one lucky it's like you know you'll spend fifty one hundred dollars a month on comics through this one app that [TS]

  we will continually updating develop but it's not exciting as I've been in amazing new apps coming out [TS]

  but there is I think less of that on the phone with exception possibly of music streaming services that you pay a [TS]

  subscription for the phone is less of a venue for I'm going to download this one app [TS]

  and you know the Apple be updated but for the next year or two years [TS]

  or my entire life will continue to funnel money through this application because the way I get my video my comics [TS]

  or my games or whatever. [TS]

  Yeah I think a lot of it also depends on you know for any whatever app you're you're talking about like how hard is it [TS]

  how much work is it to maintain a separate i Pad interface or separate i Pad app and tirelessly [TS]

  and for certain types of things like you know video type apps it's a lot less work than something like a word processor [TS]

  would be like games it's it's you know some work in the interface layout and stuff [TS]

  but for the most part you're getting that fairly easily. [TS]

  There's you know there's all these all these productivity apps that's it's a lot more work like. [TS]

  Like you know I'm not even making overcast for i Pad when I launch and you know maybe I'll add it later [TS]

  but I'm launching without any I've had enough. Even though I could I could just say in the in the people list. [TS]

  Yeah we're going to pad sure and just let the interface scale itself up but it would look terrible. [TS]

  I'd rather not do that and so I'm not doing that you know. I'd rather do it well or not at all. [TS]

  So when I met she was not at all and maybe all dressed well later but I wonder how [TS]

  and for how many developers how many developers are going to make that call and say you know what. [TS]

  It's probably not worth it like almost every other pod cast out on the store that's popular [TS]

  and all has it has a dedicated i Pad version because all of them are written like two to three years ago [TS]

  when that was a thing you all did like every one of you had to have an i Pad version two [TS]

  or three years ago it was like the hotness. [TS]

  But now for so many times of that [TS]

  and a lot of apps are still fine i Pad things things are you know you had games probably fine you know as as you know [TS]

  as well as [TS]

  and I was game could be doing fine you know so they're probably fun reading apps things like comics ology reading after [TS]

  are fine because reading is substantially better on the i Pad [TS]

  but other kinds of things utilities you know things like that it's just like we mentioned word processors like things [TS]

  like comic ology and like Microsoft Word [TS]

  or whatever like there's no there's no i Phone version of the office up so there are not even look no I don't think so. [TS]

  Well I do in college and I don't know that universally the [TS]

  but really who want to try to read comics on their phone screen like there are certain applications where the big [TS]

  screen is not only desirable [TS]

  but it's like I'm not going to bother Macon like even for games depending on what your interest is sometimes the games [TS]

  just don't make sense on the phone. [TS]

  I mean obviously games are highly motivated to get on the platform that has you know more users [TS]

  but there are classes applications I think kind of like office style applications [TS]

  and stuff like that it doesn't make sense to make a phone version because you have a certain U.I. In mind that U.I. [TS]

  Only works at minimum on the i Pad Mini like it's just not feasible. Why even bother on the phone. [TS]

  And I think the reverse is also true for things like like yours through the park that maybe you'll find out you're [TS]

  mistaken [TS]

  but it's like you are like why even bother who's carrying around their i Pad to listen to podcasts while they walk [TS]

  their dogs right that's not that's not a scenario you have in mind. Oh believe me I'm going to hear from all of them. [TS]

  Oh you will you will. [TS]

  It could be that like there is an actual usage scenario where having an i Pad version is useful [TS]

  and men might not just be those people made it back when it was the thing to do. You'll find out I guess with feedback. [TS]

  But all I can think of one what if I'm at home and I want to broadcast the airplane or something like that [TS]

  and I don't want to use my phone for it for whatever reason doesn't matter why. [TS]

  Like I'm at home [TS]

  and I want to beam to something else over here play I would reach for my i Pad before I reach for my phone. [TS]

  No I mean you could just run the i Phone version two acts like a dual class board you know like not like you're being [TS]

  prevented from a like what is it about PA to get application that you would want a you know a specific i Pad specific [TS]

  version like for POD guess that you're not spending your time manipulating the you why are you spending it on to the [TS]

  screen turned off. [TS]

  You know listening sure [TS]

  but I going to want something that looks good on the i Pad So to Marco's point yes I can absolutely get away with a two [TS]

  X. [TS]

  Version of the I of the i Phone version of overcast hypothetically but I wouldn't want to it [TS]

  and I wouldn't be happy about it [TS]

  and that may make me come back to my i Phone which granted this is the huge first world problem [TS]

  but nevertheless I can absolutely tell you that if I could listen to podcasts on my i Pad I would in a lot of cases you [TS]

  know I mentioned Twitter apps if or and like I was kind of speaking to the general case right. [TS]

  Twitter apps and you're much more popular when you're on the go and you're buying your phones right [TS]

  but I do read Twitter actually a lot from my i Pad mostly because what I'm doing [TS]

  when I'm reading Twitter is following links and when I find a link. [TS]

  Oh all the sun umbrellas in the web [TS]

  and I would much rather browse a web page you know not get the crazy i Phone mobile version if they have some crappy i [TS]

  Phone no version and be just at the much bigger screen too to read things you know [TS]

  or like even if I'm going to Instapaper them from the Twitter of Asians. [TS]

  At browsing like it's not the tweets themselves that our union i Pad screen to see a tweet tweet look fine and i Pod [TS]

  but most of the time [TS]

  when I'm using Twitter for following links that people put in is kind of you know my my undermanned replacement for [TS]

  R.S.S. [TS]

  and Yeah I want to read those links on the big screen or want to watch those videos [TS]

  and some links to new Godzilla trailer. [TS]

  I'm much happier to watch that Godzilla trailer on my i Pad than to try to you know look at the tiny thing on my i Pod [TS]

  Touch and have to you know turn off the rotation lock so I could rotate it so the images and microscopic [TS]

  and you know how much does this change if there's a five inch phone it will say yeah I guess I mean none of us have use [TS]

  the five inch shown right so we don't know like does it make a difference does it doesn't make a significant difference [TS]

  there all the sudden I feel comfortable watching the Godzilla trailer do I still wish I had it I'm out to have like a [TS]

  wall find out if people are using Android phones now already know the answer for themselves [TS]

  but for the people in the Apple camp you know with prism we get these phones will find out how much it really makes a [TS]

  difference in practice. [TS]

  See I think it'll make a big difference for non power users for I don't want to call them normal people [TS]

  but non geeks and I can't cite a specific example but I know a lot of like friends [TS]

  and family who either have been saying oh man I really hope there's a bigger i Phone or i left i O. [TS]

  West speaker I left the i Phone because it never got bigger and I wanted something bigger. [TS]

  Now some of these people carry phablet switch. [TS]

  Personally I think look ridiculous and I would not want to try to stuff in a pant pocket but that's just me. [TS]

  And typically everything I poop who I end up coming around and liking like Apple like Macs like i Phones like B.M.W. [TS]

  Etc etc But anyone who recommended all these things to you [TS]

  and whatever forty minutes I think Marco you're right that for a lot of people having a much bigger phone will prevent [TS]

  what will prevent the need for an i Pad Although with that said I wonder I think John was right. [TS]

  I'm saying having a bigger screen [TS]

  and not hitting the mobile version of websites is really really refreshing because in my experience a lot of times if [TS]

  there's a responsive site it will either be considerably better at i Pad sizes [TS]

  or the i Pad will to see the full bore desktop version and I'm curious to see if a five inch [TS]

  or maybe even six inch i Phone comes out any this year. [TS]

  What will happen with responsive sites will they just stretch the current four was a four point three inch version of [TS]

  their site a little bit. [TS]

  Will that be a different breakpoint and silly as that sounds I think I would make a big difference to me. [TS]

  I think everything is coming up i Pad progun because this whole the larger phone what it does is it pushes it pushes [TS]

  the i Pad to be like OK differentiate yourself now. [TS]

  Like now the difference in size between the mini and whatever Phone Apple comes out but that gap is narrowed. [TS]

  What is it that you're good at i Pad like well I've got a bigger screen like well how much bigger like again the people [TS]

  want to read comics ology on their bigger phone you know maybe not [TS]

  but maybe it encroaches starts to encroach on something that people thought they had many foreign like well I can [TS]

  actually get away with that on my things I like to do to make a spot for itself [TS]

  and then in between area that you know there are those are going by the find a home between the phone [TS]

  and the laptop maybe I think they need to move upscale and to continue to encroach on P.C. [TS]

  Territory and to take things away from there and to go with bigger screens or you know maybe the Mini get scaled up [TS]

  and the other one becomes the pro [TS]

  and get even bigger like that I think that's inevitable with phones getting larger I may get a different to how large [TS]

  they get ever get just a little bit larger than not a big deal [TS]

  but some of these phones that I see it's like is that a phone or is that an i Pad Mini it really hits a really close [TS]

  and at that point what place is there for an i Pad Mini your life all it is is a slightly larger phone that doesn't [TS]

  work as a phone [TS]

  and so then if you're going to get something at all it's going to be like What is this what is a tablet uniquely good. [TS]

  It's unique. [TS]

  We good at reading magazines I don't want to read a magazine on my phone with a still too small to neatly go to reading [TS]

  comics in really good having video because I don't want to watch a video on this little tiny thing like [TS]

  and you know it's an equally good it being a multifunction word processor e-mail handling out blah blah blah with an [TS]

  expandable keyboard and it becomes a mix of service [TS]

  and like whatever like I feel like there's a potential for it to be pushed up market kind of in terms of capability [TS]

  and size. [TS]

  I'm not arguing that the i Pad is going to go away or that it's bad [TS]

  and everything you know my position which I think you agree with because I think you said this is that it's just going [TS]

  to you know there are there are things the i Pad is better at. [TS]

  But you know it's it's no longer going to be assumed that everyone who has the means to buy an i Pad should buy one. [TS]

  You know that's that's kind of been the assumption like if you're in that if you're into this kind of stuff at all [TS]

  and you have enough money to afford an i Pad You should buy an i Pad I think it'll be like I said I think it'll be more [TS]

  assumed as we go on because it'll just as the price comes down every house will if you have a smart phone always assume [TS]

  you also have a tablet to do the things you do on top of the big tablet not a little one. [TS]

  Yeah and I do think that your you know your positioning it as like the thing you have in your home [TS]

  and just keep around the house that I think it has a better future for then then being traveling particularly devices [TS]

  say I couldn't disagree with you more but I think we're both right is the thing. [TS]

  It depends on what you're after [TS]

  and typically if I'm on the road I just want to browse Twitter like John was saying catch up on R.S.S. [TS]

  Do you know the things that people always say are constant consumption and that's why I need one I'm on the road [TS]

  and I prefer to do that on an i Pad And so I think it would be great I would continue to have an i Pad for travel if [TS]

  for no other reason. [TS]

  People do want to leave their laptops at home like there still is that people want to whether they are ready to [TS]

  or not I don't know but like I know I like going places with just my i Pad and in many cases I can pay. [TS]

  But often there is a desire to do that. [TS]

  It's just a question of does the i Pad get filled I did it live up to the way you want to use it [TS]

  and sometimes it doesn't and it doesn't I think [TS]

  and if you start the push up market a little bit people still want to bring their full fledged laptop especially if [TS]

  it's there like work laptop or they associate it with work [TS]

  but they want to have you know a powerful tablet with them so I think that the distinction of like you know this idea [TS]

  of people that don't or don't bring their laptops with them. [TS]

  There's two sides of this one is that if it's their work laptop and you know it's not like there are self-employed or [TS]

  or you know there are seven play [TS]

  but they hate themselves like a lot of people don't want to bring their work with them because they don't like their [TS]

  work and that's fine [TS]

  and so the work laptop has this this emotional baggage of being your work that you know you're on vacation you know [TS]

  want to bring this. [TS]

  But yes that's one side [TS]

  and you know you never get over that eventually you have a work tablet if this goes the way that everyone thinks it [TS]

  will and you want to bring that either to your work tablet. [TS]

  So whatever that that I think we can safely disregard it as a thing because you know eventually that will emerge [TS]

  but the other side of it is people people who say I don't want to bring this whole effort with me laptops in the last [TS]

  couple years have gotten so much thinner and lighter and smaller and battery life is going through the roof. [TS]

  Their laptops are getting so awesome that a lot of people who say that they you know they have like a two [TS]

  or three year old laptop. [TS]

  Well it turns out modern laptops are a lot better than that you know the last few years have been amazing [TS]

  and laptops and if it half of the rumors are true about what Apple's lineup is going to have in the laptops [TS]

  and in the near future. [TS]

  It's going to be even better like they're talking about this supposed twelve inch retina air that might not even have [TS]

  fans and maybe even an ARM chip who knows. [TS]

  Like laptops are really really good [TS]

  and you know there's a reason why laptops have taken over the world as like the computer of choice for almost everybody [TS]

  who can make that choice. Labs are awesome and. [TS]

  They keep getting more and more [TS]

  and more often they keep getting smaller thinner lighter better battery life better displays everything about and [TS]

  and the O. S. Is are you know well. Windows. [TS]

  Now you know you're getting to this it's not just the size [TS]

  and everything it's like the reason people feel like I don't want to be my laptop isn't just because my working it [TS]

  isn't just because it's heavier because I have an old laptop it's also because the experience of using an i Pad because [TS]

  it runs I.O.'s and it's you know so simplified is more relaxing for you know vacation time atmosphere [TS]

  and again that gap could narrow as well [TS]

  and that's what Apple's trying to do they're trying to simplify Makower ten the trying to shave off the edges that you [TS]

  know like these things are on a collision course [TS]

  but it's still debatable which one will get to the critical point first especially with pricing because of the tablet [TS]

  can be ninety nine bucks an hour both best MacBook Air is still you know five ninety nine in some distant future. [TS]

  The tablets are going to win just based on price. So used to be definitely a size thing. [TS]

  I don't be lugging this thing with me as the size issue becomes less than you get on OK now it's down to price now it's [TS]

  down to a simplicity and simplicity that the P.C. [TS]

  Has a fighting chance if you know the look at my order because I was trying to do with Windows eight an Apple trying to [TS]

  simplify it so us on the price front I don't know maybe that's the closer I was going to say I will give the edge to [TS]

  the tablet another to think about especially if they go to an ARM based air that might be a reasonably fair fight to [TS]

  get in the end what's the difference between an ARM based MacBook Air and a Microsoft Surface [TS]

  and i Pad with a keyboard in terms of pricing like I could be close to the too close to call this race I mean the funny [TS]

  thing is if you think about you know what people want out of a quote i Pad Pro You know most people who try to get [TS]

  productivity work on our i Pads either use [TS]

  or at some point have tried keyboards for their i Pads so that you think about OK what do you do with keyboard if [TS]

  you've ever used a keyboard [TS]

  and i Pad you realize how much the pointing device situation sucks because if they keep using the keyboard on the [TS]

  bottom and reaching a protective screen to you know move things around. And that sucks you know. [TS]

  I seems like what people want out of an i Pad Pro is to make it more like a laptop [TS]

  and what if this twelve inch thing is pretty much the i Pad air's hardware with a keyboard running a ported version of [TS]

  a stat that would solve multitasking it would solve docket management it would solve all you know it would solve all of [TS]

  the quote productivity needs [TS]

  but it wouldn't solve solve like with people like people don't like oh it's ten compared to Iowa it's like more [TS]

  relaxing to use I was like trying try no geeks do [TS]

  but you know like it's the appeal of tablets is a broad ranging interest not just the physical parts of it it's also [TS]

  the software part same software parts of are complaining again that like the limitations like that's the line Apple is [TS]

  trying to walk how do I make the i Pad more capable of making a crappier How do I make the mac less annoying to use [TS]

  without removing its capabilities. [TS]

  Yeah I feel like I'm back to what John is then saying which is part of the reason I did so laptop is because it's old [TS]

  and heavy and doesn't have a great battery but partly because for the things I do [TS]

  when I'm traveling which is basically just catch up on Twitter and R.S.S. and Email and so on. [TS]

  I'll just bring the i Pad And maybe if I'm feeling really exotic I'll bring my apple Bluetooth keyboard [TS]

  and throw it in a suitcase and use it in situations where I'm sitting down at the desk in the hotel or whatever [TS]

  and cranking out a few emails [TS]

  but I'd much prefer that over a small mac because I find using I was more enjoyable in that situation [TS]

  and I will say time itself as we also forgot the the input method like Marco mention the terrible keyboard support [TS]

  and I was it really is Graham special like cursor control and really doing to control a touch is also Graham [TS]

  but for all other applications like people like being able to touch the screen [TS]

  and move stuff around so you're using I hear you're using Apple or Google Maps to do now when you're on your i Pad [TS]

  and you want to move the thing around like this is direct maybe elation is part of the real. [TS]

  Sation you're not swiping on a track pad your just can touch the screen and again Apple can do something you can [TS]

  but you can make some kind of convertible you know book air the keyboard folder on the back on it [TS]

  and then you can touch the screen and like there are there are ways out of this [TS]

  but then if I had to use an echo I stand with touch and blah blah. [TS]

  The sort of the attractiveness [TS]

  and the relaxation factor of the i Pad is it's about the whole product about the interaction it's about the size about [TS]

  the O. [TS]

  Us about the simplicity it's about the applications about the history that the lack of baggage like there is a lot to [TS]

  it in the same way that there's a lot to what's stopping it from being a P.C. [TS]

  Replacement a huge a laundry list of things there as well. [TS]

  It's not just one thing [TS]

  and so it's difficult to sort of it's difficult to say who is going to be able to make the moves the best [TS]

  and the fastest. [TS]

  Like if we fast forward seven years what is the in terms of like how many tablets are soldiers [TS]

  and army pc's are sold one of those ratios look like. Like eighty percent tablets and twenty percent P.C. [TS]

  Is it fifty fifty that will know who got to the sweet spot first by looking at those ratios and you know decade or two. [TS]

  I mean I think it's going to end of shaking out with basically. [TS]

  I suspect we're going to see the category which ironically Microsoft started with you know these these are pretty much [TS]

  like a laptop tablets the tablets that you know are basically just really small laptops running you know laptop type O. [TS]

  S. As letter type software. Whether to convert or not I don't think is that relevant. [TS]

  I think we're going to see the market split as it matures into you know phones are going to keep getting bigger until [TS]

  they're all pretty much as big as they can be and still fit in most people's pockets. [TS]

  So we'll have these big phones that were cut out a lot of the tablet used use cases are a lot of the tablet rationality [TS]

  at least them are going to have the you know tablet for consumption people who like things like. [TS]

  Big screens are who need to draw on them or do you do things that that most people could do on a phone [TS]

  or better on on something with a bigger screen and those might be used at home a lot of whatever [TS]

  and then we're going to have people who want to do productivity type tasks who are really going to want these laptop [TS]

  what's like the surface type things [TS]

  and maybe that's it the twelve inch thing is you know that kind of thing I think that's going to be it's going to split [TS]

  into the more casual [TS]

  or you know non-traditional productivity use cases will keep will keep the current tablet form factor as like their [TS]

  best thing where they are but they run best [TS]

  but I think people who keep trying to like put their i Pads in these big folio cases and attach a keyboard a bottom [TS]

  and you know all these kind of like i Pad bolt ons trying to make it more like a computer. [TS]

  I think we're going to see that usage merge into a really compact laptops that whether they run it you know [TS]

  when they were on Intel chips or not when they were on I was ten. [TS]

  I'm guessing it would be really small on top of running us ten [TS]

  or Windows eight like you know really small computers running regular P.C. [TS]

  Operating systems with with tablet like hardware but with a keyboard with touch screens. [TS]

  No well maybe touching doctrinally [TS]

  but probably not the problem is probably just what my talking about it is really like an i Pad Air hardware running an [TS]

  arm port of a West has that early on that I really think that the productivity use is going to be so much better on [TS]

  that just a laptop. [TS]

  I mean that's not that's not a tab like I me [TS]

  and my girls are taking the ball on this one because they're they're trying to do the thing we're describing [TS]

  and not doing well at it for a variety of reasons not all of which have to do with the design [TS]

  or probably a lot of them are just like market timing and issues with their Wes and all sorts of other issues [TS]

  but they're basically being the Sega CD of this generation. [TS]

  They haven't they bottom line is they haven't figured out to ignore all the Sauber ignore all the market things in the [TS]

  world timings they just haven't figured out the hardware like kickstand floppy keyboard hinge no hints like I mean [TS]

  everything. [TS]

  It's like an eleven inch MacBook Air does all those things better in terms of you know if it's got the stiff hinge like [TS]

  that's why keeping it. [TS]

  Give you a stiff pinch a keyboard that folds all the way on the on the back so and then a touch screen and then a NO S. [TS]

  That you can actually use with touch like those are the ingredients they're kind of missing so far [TS]

  and I think Microsoft will keep trying with surface. [TS]

  Hopefully they will eventually find the correct combination of physical attributes [TS]

  and then who knows if they'll ever get the timing right or their software right. [TS]

  But Apple there is still an opportunity for Apple to figure that out before them if they decide to let us all be [TS]

  watching for this you know this twelve inch reading there's a just is just another error that happens to be a different [TS]

  size or they're going to try to do something special there. [TS]

  I think Apple does not have an appetite to try to make a hybrid device of the type that I described in many many years [TS]

  ago in a back page of common Macworld I think I was saying do a Lois and certainly Apple's not going to do that [TS]

  but I'm not sure they're even trying to find a solution I think they're happy to allow things to evolve independently [TS]

  and just let them duke it out in the market. [TS]

  Yeah I don't know I am more skeptical that I think it's really just like you know in the same way that that phone is [TS]

  getting larger screens you know will eat a lot of the tablet use from the bottom. [TS]

  I think laptops getting a lot smaller then are lighter [TS]

  and having better battery lives will eat a lot of the top end of the market and so that I really don't. [TS]

  I think so many of the people who are using tablets for part of the are going to be very satisfied in a few years with [TS]

  a really small laptop that has a lot of the benefits of a tablet hardware while not having a lot of the limitations of [TS]

  tablet software market we tried putting it didn't work out. [TS]

  Yes All right well thanks what two or three sponsors this week. [TS]

  Helspont Linda dot com and new relic and we will see you next week. It was accidental accidental. [TS]

  And you learn from this. [TS]

  He was excessive asking a list [TS]

  and I feel like I need to explain my Sega CD reference to the chat rooms getting it all wrong saying you know me them [TS]

  at the thirty two X. or The CD X. [TS]

  Even if I think that was what the Jupiter project became that like it was like a toilet it was like a Genesis So you [TS]

  see the combo. Anyway I really came out but if I did a well known bought it. [TS]

  The reason I said Sega CD and not thirty two X. [TS]

  Is because I was I was using a reference to to say it was infamous for putting out technology long before it could be [TS]

  good or trying to [TS]

  and it was the one of the first widespread CD-ROM gaming systems if not if not the first widespread one [TS]

  and it was just awful it was a one extra Ivan load times were insane the graphics really weren't that much better than [TS]

  a Genesis games and it didn't really add much Harbor was the genesis. It was just very expensive games are terrible. [TS]

  Most like F. and Adventure games like the only game worth getting really were Sonic CD almost every game. [TS]

  He said that was terrible and [TS]

  and the reason why I made the reference in relation to the surface was like the surface I think was Microsoft having [TS]

  this interesting hardware idea of doing it like a generation too early. [TS]

  Basically before it can really be if it was going to be good I think they did it too early to be good. [TS]

  So that's why I suggested the Sega CD because that was like they did it like a generation before the other CD-ROM [TS]

  giving systems [TS]

  and the other ones were way better because they had the benefit of having better technology available to them [TS]

  or the Sega CD was just like way too early way you know way before its time and pretty bad as a result [TS]

  and that's why the thirty two X. Is not an appropriate reference for the thirty two X. [TS]

  Failed for lots of reasons that had nothing to do with technology the technology actually pretty good [TS]

  but it fails a lot of other reasons. When I was an intended kid as you can tell I was a Sega person. [TS]

  What happened to you both. I grew up. [TS]

  Oh yeah well what happened to me was that the Second City in thirty two [TS]

  and I want to tell the story on the pod cast I don't recall but when I was in high school [TS]

  and from the beginning of college when I was at home I worked at a Babbage's which was a subsidiary of Game Stop [TS]

  and I remember vividly peddling the Dreamcast like you couldn't even imagine before it came out. [TS]

  It's going to be so much better to be awesome something awesome can be so much better it's going to be awesome [TS]

  and then it came out [TS]

  and it was so much better I would argue although I'm not going to stand on this one like I did the vinyl argument [TS]

  anyway. [TS]

  Point being it came out like three people bought it and then it disappeared and saved all but folded after that [TS]

  and you know the problem was that by all accounts I never had a Dreamcast but I played one a few times here and there. [TS]

  By all accounts the Dreamcast was a good system. The problem was the Dreamcast followed the Sega CD. Thirty two X. [TS]

  and The Saturn. [TS]

  All of which were terrible game systems and so Sega fan base was pretty burned by that point [TS]

  and there were other factors involved as well that made the Dreamcast kind of fail but [TS]

  but you know the biggest problem the Dreamcast had nothing to do with a target the hardware was actually really good. [TS]

  Yeah agreed. [TS]

  So John out of curiosity what what should we have been talking about besides the Sega CD and Katie Nintendo fanboy ism. [TS]

  Well what what was the proper answer to what gives us as we used in the early ninety's I was saying what happened here [TS]

  you're both enthusiastic gamers as kids and then fell off the wagon [TS]

  or on to the wagon I don't know which ever analogy is the one that I never strayed on that actually I mean for me [TS]

  personally it was getting into things like personal side projects and like side programming projects and making [TS]

  and then eventually working for myself and writing and pod casting. [TS]

  Like all this other stuff I'm doing with my free time where I just don't like there's never a time during the day [TS]

  when I think I would like to spend the next hour playing a video game like I used to have those moments [TS]

  and now I just don't buy. There is there are other ways are going to spend that time now. [TS]

  Yes same here like when I was younger. [TS]

  The Nintendo sixty four came out [TS]

  and I was still hugely into that like I blew so many hours on Goldeneye in Mario Kart I can't even tell you [TS]

  and then I just kind of stop playing games. [TS]

  I found girls around that point [TS]

  or more appropriately I might have actually started to have some modicum of success with. [TS]

  But but I remember vividly buying a Play Station the original Play Station with my own money [TS]

  and getting Metal Gear Solid in one of the final fantasies and playing the crap out of those [TS]

  and then I never really looked back against an ever again. Oh here's where you two are missing right now. [TS]

  For the same reason that I assume you both like to watch television [TS]

  and movies like you still both do that as a thing that you enjoy the experience afforded by the bad. [TS]

  Just modern games is like the best movie ever seen combined with of US T.V. [TS]

  You've ever seen multiplied by twenty four people who are into games and who are you know fluent in the interface [TS]

  and vocabulary of gaming a great game I think all gamers would agree is a superior experience to a great movie. [TS]

  To these to them because they're gamers right. [TS]

  And so we integrate that into games I would think that a really great game could give you the equivalent experience of [TS]

  a really great movie or a really great T.V. Show. And just like movies and T.V. [TS]

  It is going to be a lot of crap is going to last if you're not interested in that stuff is disappointing [TS]

  but that's why I continue to find time in my schedule to play these games like the fall of the industry so it's just a [TS]

  hobby you know just reading about or whatever but what games do I play. [TS]

  I don't have a lot of time to play games but I make time to play the games that I think are going to be great [TS]

  and I enjoy them immensely [TS]

  and I'm glad I carve out that time in the same way that I carve out time to watch Game of Thrones [TS]

  or in the past The Wire or The Sopranos [TS]

  or all of those things that you find time in your schedule not so much every T.V. Show T.V. [TS]

  Is mostly crap but The Sopranos is great and I'm going to watch it [TS]

  and I feel the same way about you know playing the last of us or you know certainly journey [TS]

  or anything like that so it's not like you know I'm not able to have have to be then you will have to be gamers [TS]

  or whatever [TS]

  but I think that it isn't it's reasonable to assume that were you to pursue gaming there would be games that you would [TS]

  enjoy as much as you enjoy your favorite television programs or movies. [TS]

  Yeah but let's consider that I tend to have terrible taste in music television and movies. [TS]

  So but then I'm in town like you like what you like is a bazillion games or there's a billion movies and T.V. [TS]

  Shows if you like to watch you know supernatural [TS]

  and then that's the kind of show you want there are gaming equivalent of that like I'm saying it's at this point it's a [TS]

  genre as rich as television or movies or books for that matter. [TS]

  Maybe not as rich as those things but moving in that direction [TS]

  but certainly in mass market appeal there's probably something you could find that would appeal to you the problem I [TS]

  think for people who are an interest like Oh well how do I know what the tech like to me is just one big giant blob of [TS]

  games [TS]

  and if you're not following the game industry I'm reading game magazines really gaining new site the following game. [TS]

  People on Twitter you don't know which thing to take [TS]

  and if you just go to the store like all of us try this game you'll try it it will be crap. [TS]

  You'll be annoyed you like see this is why I don't play games they're stupid right. [TS]

  So there is that barrier I'm not saying it's easy to come into [TS]

  but I think that there's nothing about the two of you including your age [TS]

  or maturity level that is preventing you is making you incapable of enjoying modern gaming because for a reasonable [TS]

  proclamation everybody enjoys Munna game everybody's a gamer to some degree or another [TS]

  and if anything you two are standing out as oddities and that he used to be gamers [TS]

  and now as adults just sort of cut them out of your life entirely and that's becoming increasingly rare. [TS]

  You think this is like unusual. Yeah but I don't think so. I'm with Marco. [TS]

  You go go look at the numbers [TS]

  and go look at the numbers on the gaming industry go look at the average range of a gamer you are not in the majority. [TS]

  You're saying that it's unusual for people to play games and they're younger [TS]

  and then not play games on there like in their thirty's. You know what do you think the average age of gamers. [TS]

  Now I know it's going up but that doesn't necessarily mean what you just said now [TS]

  but just look at the distribution look at how many people how big is the gaming industry how many copies the game sell [TS]

  how many people say they play games at all like it's it's massive it is mass market. [TS]

  Most people play games so most people who have any kind of computing device do I don't know what the mark on this I [TS]

  have no facts to back me up [TS]

  but well that never stopped you know I mean you know that is that that doesn't pass the smell test for me what's [TS]

  interesting is that you don't like my parents. [TS]

  I'll let the others the readers wrote in and tell you all the doesn't it. Do you stop playing games. [TS]

  You haven't grown out of those because I used to give my parents which they. [TS]

  I'd found non-human thing and all and you also find I'm commencing but I will do it again. [TS]

  It's kind of like if you know my grandparents my grandparents parents said to them that my grandparents [TS]

  or I could see them at eighty five years old [TS]

  and say You guys are still playing piano Arkell you don't grow out of cards how can you play it like they played it [TS]

  their whole life they played card games [TS]

  and their kids they play it to the day they died they played it just you know that was their version of games these [TS]

  card games. [TS]

  They didn't grow out of them and in the same way most anyone who's actually game of course never grows out of them [TS]

  but at this point like anyone who grew up with games continues to play in the whole life they don't stop playing them [TS]

  in the same way that my grandparents never stop playing pinnacle it's just you know you don't it's not something you [TS]

  grow out of it's not like a child's toy there's no such thing as as adults would never want to do it. [TS]

  Games are not like us I think you still watch movies is not a kid thing you still do you still read books. [TS]

  It's not just something for kids. [TS]

  Oh [TS]

  and I don't want to I don't want to suggest that games are juvenile because that's not at all what I mean that's not why [TS]

  I stopped playing them for the most part it's literally just like there are many different ways to entertain yourself [TS]

  these days [TS]

  and I have chosen to not play very many games anymore if it was to hard to play any at all anymore because all of the [TS]

  alternatives all the alternatives to to to amusing myself worked or to spending time. [TS]

  Things like you know you present the Internet or socializing online or watching T.V. [TS]

  Series on Netflix like I've chosen to do all of those things instead [TS]

  but that's not true because you love you interest both love board games and yes it's not video games but it's games [TS]

  and if we're broadening the case if I'm moving the goal post that that that to me counts [TS]

  and similarly like I don't I don't really play games anymore [TS]

  but if I'm in a group setting I love to play a game of cards against humanity [TS]

  or you know I enjoy was a Puerto Rico that we played in South Carolina Marco [TS]

  and what was that we played just this past week and already forgotten Qwirkle Thank you. [TS]

  Games like that I really enjoy and the other thing I found that I fill my free time with if I'm not sure. [TS]

  Farting around on the Internet is I've gotten really back into reading novels again which I used to do a lot as well as [TS]

  a kid and now I've gotten back into that [TS]

  and so realizing that the local library is one of the best inventions of the world. [TS]

  I've been I've pretty much had a book with me almost always for the last six months to a year. [TS]

  OK now you're now you're back in the minority again because most North Americans anyway don't read it was it was scary [TS]

  to statistics about how many people don't read a novel after they graduate from high school that is not here [TS]

  and I don't think about it but gaming is much more mass market then than reading novels. That's probably true. [TS]

  Oh yeah definitely I mean [TS]

  and that really you guys to game a little bit like you're saying what you're saying like if I'm not playing Grand Theft [TS]

  Auto not gaming I mean like what a Press Council you know playing playing total annihilation [TS]

  or whatever you're playing with your friends that you know your friend's wedding like accounts like that's not why it [TS]

  didn't happen. Well failure to play till I leave. That's P.C. It's a P.C. Gaming P.C. [TS]

  Gaming is attempting to get a game I know I know [TS]

  but even console like I have a P S three the only game I have for it is is the white out version it was a download game [TS]

  I bought it thinking I'd get more gaming out of it [TS]

  but I also just wanted a blue ray player at the time it was about the same price as a blue ray player so I get to be as [TS]

  they are in and never use it as a game console. [TS]

  But that's not true either is it because I thought you had something to learn the nurturing on was that the P S three [TS]

  or the expo I forget which right shows if that you know that might even appear three I forget [TS]

  but I use that for like three nights. [TS]

  Teller OK I might have to give the problem for getting into these type AAA type games is that like if you're out of it [TS]

  for a long time [TS]

  and you're you you're lacking in the literacy of the current gaming conventions in your honour's And so yeah you can [TS]

  fire up like a driving game with driving into driving games but where you shoe I mean that's why I'm not. [TS]

  That's why I don't spend my time encouraging you too much to play journey because I feel like if you played it it would [TS]

  be lost on you in that you're you're missing the context to appreciate it. [TS]

  It's almost like you know we spent so much time encouraging beautiful kids they're going to I know well. [TS]

  But it's when it's clear that you're not going to do it [TS]

  and so now it's like now almost like I'd rather you not play a role you have a bunch of warm up again it's not a point [TS]

  because like you because you claim to be like kind of boring like the game would be lost on us [TS]

  and they were like you have you have a P S three should you play the last of us know if you haven't played a AAA video [TS]

  game in years [TS]

  and years the last of us is not it's not going to work for you the way it works for the people who are still you know [TS]

  sort of in the AAA gaming thing you were definitely both of you in the more of the casual gaming space. [TS]

  Yeah get Monument Valley it's fun like I don't think it's you know it's all right it's not amazing I think it's a [TS]

  little bit too easy and a little bit too short [TS]

  and not even as I think your walk was a much better game for example I think really goes fishing is a better game for [TS]

  example. [TS]

  But those are the games where you don't need a lot of contacts you can just dive right into them [TS]

  and I think for example both of you probably enjoy a ridiculous fishing. [TS]

  I played ridiculous fishing for about ten minutes and didn't see the appeal and I know everyone loved it [TS]

  and so that I assume you know what happens is I will try these games that everyone says are amazing [TS]

  and they're being big hits. [TS]

  I'll try them and most of them I mean you know you're going to threes and letterpress you know like the kind of [TS]

  and dots like you know I mean to some I was casual games [TS]

  but most of these games that people just totally obsess over I don't find them that fun [TS]

  and so I assume there's something wrong with me that I'm just not a gamer because I don't like what everyone else likes [TS]

  but you but you are like you you made your own units for whatever that was is a total annihilation I mean like [TS]

  when I was sixteen. Right. [TS]

  Those you still how do you think I want to play it like that still inside you is just that now all of your all of your [TS]

  touchstones are now out of date so [TS]

  when you try to play something minor doesn't work casually as I'm going to go fishing [TS]

  when I first tried it too I thought like you know whatever but like there is there is a hook in the game [TS]

  and if you allowed to go maybe you need to be a little more of a game [TS]

  or two for that hook to find purchase minute value simpler but I think it's more of a trifle. [TS]

  Your walk is probably when you are not you need to be game to play that someone is trying to like threes [TS]

  and letterpress you guys go have no problem getting that you want to because it's more like a board game which Marco [TS]

  does play actively like you then you're like Oh I understand what this is about our life it's like by the way by [TS]

  actively like I'll play it will play board games [TS]

  or games with with like you know friends who are over sometimes I would say we probably play board games for maybe an [TS]

  hour and a half every two months like we're not talking about a frequent hobby I would like to play more of them [TS]

  but I do enjoy them. [TS]

  But [TS]

  but yeah doesn't like i don't get the chance that often I mean that's like that's I think more of a time investment from [TS]

  my perspective than than a video game because like you got to get all the stuff out [TS]

  and you got to get the multiple people now have to be there in a row like where is a video game you can steal time to [TS]

  play more conveniently than you could steal because you can't play you know like one of these complicated German board [TS]

  games that requires five people and they ought to know the rules or any of us are going to be there for an hour [TS]

  and like that is not something you can steal time in just to grab a quick game of [TS]

  or even put an extra hour of like how to play the last of us have played it when the kids were asleep [TS]

  when my wife was out of town in a series of you know one or two hour sittings [TS]

  and I could not play that if I had a board game that I was interested in I would be like you [TS]

  and waiting around to have time to gather a bunch of people who also want to play a board game who also know the rules [TS]

  to play the board game so I think that's it's harder to find time to do that but you managed to do it like [TS]

  and it's fine I'm just saying like I think that there is enjoyment to be had there is nothing in you that's making that [TS]

  making you like oh I'm just not a game I guess I don't love these games that everybody loves a lot of times it is [TS]

  missing the context for it and I think there are games out there that you would enjoy. [TS]

  Yeah I'm sure there are [TS]

  but I think you're right that it that I'm not willing to put in a massive time investment to try to find these things [TS]

  I'm not willing to to say like you know. [TS]

  Oh yeah I'm going to I'm going to spend this whole Saturday afternoon like like if my wife sent out a tandem I couldn't [TS]

  sleep. The thing I would most want to do is go to my computer and write. [TS]

  Our program I love doing those things that I had to do that then go to the T.V. and Play a game. [TS]

  Someday be ready for a journey market maybe every atom God will want to play games probably because they're fun thing [TS]

  to do and kids have nothing to do but you know they have nothing but free time right. [TS]

  So maybe he'll help you get your into them but some day when you're ready. Kiran he will be there for you personally. [TS]

  Yes five remastered version. Yeah and it you know if that happens like you know if my kid into playing games. [TS]

  Yeah I agree that that's likely you know if you like in games [TS]

  and play with him that's a whole different story then I would you know because I'm spending time with my kid [TS]

  and you know interacting with him or playing these games that make sense. [TS]

  Because then you'll suck in your view the debtor can play games. [TS]

  Well but is that how you probably suck too you don't realize it. No not my family. [TS]

  Well I will tell you the day with a name like it's going to mean any video game [TS]

  and I am determined that day will never come. [TS]

  Right now it's time for titles I love so see that we've covered the Fed So far we've had ten reviews. [TS]

  Journey File Systems file systems we had it earlier we have seriously hit the John Surtees select quad sector [TS]

  and we're not even close would even mention Tivo I could even touch on. [TS]