63: I Hold My Children To A Higher Standard

0:00:00Well live stream right now there are ones freaking out about what up Kris Allen found out when I live here

0:00:06and we do have some follow up something happened a few hours ago.

0:00:11Thank goodness because otherwise this would've been a short

0:00:16but yeah we do have some follow up so John Mitchell to tell us about how people do or do not play games.

0:00:22Yeah last week I mentioned the average age of gamers and none of us knew what it was

0:00:27and if someone wrote it in the chat room I didn't notice so I apologize for that

0:00:32but I looked it up so you know it's on our to find this information so here are the stats this is in regards to both of

0:00:38you saying that you have grown out of playing games

0:00:40and me saying that's ridiculous because most people who play games are even older than your adult. Wait hold on.

0:00:45Neither of us said we grew out of games that that's going to get some feedback which already has which is not accurate.

0:00:54I don't remember the exact quote but it was something like you just felt like you were out of it

0:00:57or anyway everyone responding think that's what you said.

0:01:00Obviously the miscommunication and you can feel free to clarify because I keep saying I agree with K.C.

0:01:04and Marco I also grew out of games like we're seeing those responses again that doesn't mean that's what you said I

0:01:09mean what we both said was was that we didn't see games that we didn't see games as like a juvenile thing that you

0:01:18would grow out of but rather we play games for a long time and then we you know in recent years

0:01:24or weren't you know after we left college or whatever we just didn't choose to spend our time playing games

0:01:29or didn't have the time to plug into anymore so it's not necessarily a growing out of it because that implies that it's

0:01:35not like a juvenile thing it's it's more that we just chose not to spend our time doing that anymore.

0:01:39Yeah I would agree that our priorities shifted.

0:01:42It's like the same result but with with a different reason

0:01:45and with with less judgment in the reason nationally one of you said I don't know I guess I just grew out of it I'm a

0:01:52bit of a joke and yes later you did say that these markers are that you didn't think they were juvenile or anything

0:01:57but everyone latched on to the growing up thing.

0:02:00Here is the information I was trying to get across is that the average age of gamers and none of us knew what it was.

0:02:05The average age of game players according to the Entertainment Software Association which is trade association attracts

0:02:10the type of things video games is thirty one years old.

0:02:14This is this is the United States that only I think the only US anyway.

0:02:19The average age of the US population is thirty seven point two So yes the average age of the people in the United

0:02:26States is slightly older

0:02:27but I think that makes sense considering video games were introduced partially into the lives of many people who are

0:02:32alive today so you don't have a sample you know everyone alive wasn't born when video games are introduced the.

0:02:38The ratios are fifty two percent male forty eight percent female

0:02:41and out of the most frequent game purchases the ratios are exactly even fifty fifty male female they say fifty nine

0:02:48percent of Americans play video games. And here are some stats and breakdowns.

0:02:52Women over eighteen are thirty six percent boys eighteen

0:02:56or younger are seventeen percent so twice as many women twice as many adult women play games as juvenile boys do

0:03:02and if fifty one percent of U.S.

0:03:04Homes have given out so and there's an average of two game console in each house that has any.

0:03:10So like I said most game players are more or less our age. I'm older than thirty one.

0:03:14You guys are also both older than thirty one right. I am thirty one you know.

0:03:18So you're exactly the average age of a gamer

0:03:21and I think it makes sense because our people your age mark on my age are basically like video games were invented more

0:03:27or less when we were young by the time we were old enough to play them. They were popular. We played them. We grew up.

0:03:33We continue to play them.

0:03:35Whereas people who were you know thirty years old before the Atari twenty six hundred introduce are much less likely I

0:03:41think to have gotten into it so we are sort of the first generation of people to have grown up with games in a make

0:03:45sense that we continue to play them whereas the people who are sort of ahead of us may have never gotten into it at all

0:03:51and I think I made all these points and show people talking about growing out of games and stuff

0:03:56and tweeting about it and so on and saying well I do it I don't do it as much now as are you.

0:04:00Still you may grow out of the games that you played

0:04:03when you were a child in the same way you grow out of the books that you read

0:04:06or you don't read Little Golden Books anymore you don't watch a Hanna Barbera cartoons they were like there are many

0:04:10things you did as a child you grow out of but a Video games are a medium and they're fairly diverse

0:04:16and so even though you of course you don't have the time to play games that used to be you know time to do anything

0:04:21enough time to just pick any any sort of leisure time activity you do for him or time that when you're a kid.

0:04:27But as you get older you will like different games just like you like different movies

0:04:31and different television shows and different books

0:04:34and that I think is natural I think a lot of the people who say well I grew out of games you know all I do now is

0:04:40and then they insert like the three games that they play but I barely have time for that.

0:04:43Well yes of course you barely have time for that if you're still playing games like that

0:04:46and you didn't really grow out of games just grew out of the games that you played as a child.

0:04:50It's true that some people never go out of the game they played as a child maybe they're plates of murders a child they

0:04:54love tomorrow to this day and they keep playing it that's fine too.

0:04:58Same thing with books I mean how many adults out there really young adult books as like you know

0:05:03and love them like the Harry Potter series is a good example

0:05:05or a lot of these things even like the hunger games I like that a lot of these books are technically young adult books

0:05:10that many adults enjoy them today not to grow out of that should they have grown out of books

0:05:14and they have grown out of those specific books I don't think that's an important distinction

0:05:17but the idea that games are something that most people played when they were a kid

0:05:23and don't play anymore I think is not borne out by the statistics at least in the United States.

0:05:28Do people count as gamers if they just have like Angry Birds on their phones versus like a console game or a P.C.

0:05:36Game like is there a distinction should there be a distinction and maybe the answer is no.

0:05:41But should there be a distinction between like people who have a couple of casual games on their phone versus people

0:05:47who like you know own dedicated gaming hardware or have bought like a forty

0:05:51or fifty dollar game before I don't think they're making those kind of distinctions I think they consider all games

0:05:57games and so what I like I don't. If you cycle.

0:06:00I don't play games all I do is

0:06:01when you insert some I was game that you obsessed we played every moment of spare time like yeah you play games.

0:06:07They do add information on console that you would consider the like that's not casual right I don't know if that's

0:06:12still AAA

0:06:13and the thing is a fifty one percent of homes have a game console in them somewhere in those homes as playing those

0:06:17games right.

0:06:19And so you know it's not like well thirty one percent on the game console

0:06:22but the only only Google Play game console are the seventeen percent of gamers who are male

0:06:26and younger than eighteen like that seems unlikely

0:06:29but anyway I count them all as games like there's plenty of legitimate games

0:06:34and I us I mean maybe they're not counting like solitaire and minesweeper

0:06:37but I think maybe these days those sort of fallen by the wayside

0:06:41but I don't I don't think there's a useful distinction between it was not a real game as like I am that's not a real

0:06:46book that's just a I don't know mystery novel romance novel do those not count as real books

0:06:51or something it has to be Tolstoy game as a game as a game.

0:06:56Fair enough I actually do have a question for you does Tina get involved in any of the video gaming around your house.

0:07:03She plays games on her phone a lot and I think that's where she plays a majority of her games

0:07:07but at various times she has been very into as an adult very very into both console games and computer games.

0:07:14But these days any time I have I don't want to reveal her dirty gaming secrets

0:07:19but so many certain I was games that have the ability to get their hooks into people have gotten their hooks into her

0:07:26and so she is very susceptible to that and I don't approve of most of the games that she plays

0:07:30but she definitely has a place for your kids because I know your son.

0:07:36Last I heard is really and Minecraft is that still the case. You know it's Minecraft it destroyed his life and ours.

0:07:45Here we had a very diverse gaming education up until the age of you know I guess nine sometime in his ninth year of

0:07:53life Minecraft came and destroyed everything else having to do with life. He is obsessed with Minecraft.

0:08:00As he played any game other than mine recently I don't think so.

0:08:04He's totally obsessed and neither your son or daughter got into the way you very much.

0:08:09Well I mean that's when his friends come over he plays the way you would his friends giving us

0:08:14and you know Minecraft is not as much of a social game. So he does still play that and I assume then the next.

0:08:20Recently I've been playing games that he can't play with me

0:08:23but I'm assuming the next game that we can all play together comes out hell play with me like been exiled a game

0:08:27or a body clock I can't remember the name anymore because the last guardian of that ever comes out he'll play that with

0:08:34me but he's not clamoring to play those games we have all the game console hooked up

0:08:38and I've been playing games on more than he has.

0:08:41But yeah like it's like it's natural for kids is age to get obsessed with things like this

0:08:46and just as Marco says Total Annihilation units

0:08:48and everything you do have a certain point you get really into one game like yeah you like lots of games

0:08:53and then a certain certain game comes and absorbs you

0:08:56and this is happening with my grand my daughter I keep trying to get her to play games many many times on many

0:09:01different console than on the computer should play a little bit of kind of casual games and I was

0:09:06but she's just not into it and I want to really push it but I keep I keep putting them for an error

0:09:10and I actually had a play Monument Valley in that I think was about her speed someplace. She just turned seven.

0:09:18I did buy that game

0:09:19and have not even opened it like now ever since I was six I believe added the new badge on apps so that you could tell

0:09:27if you have an app you've never launched before I've really been shamed by those badges on my phone because it's all

0:09:34games and there's like there's probably right now my phone probably had like seven

0:09:38or eight games that I bought in the last six months that I haven't even launched yet

0:09:44but I want to be a gamer in theory but I never decide to spend the time doing that.

0:09:49And Monument Valley is actually a great example of an application that takes advantage of retina.

0:09:56If they go to the matter for games who cares after those a low rez three doing scaled up.

0:10:00But this minor value has graphics that really benefit from from the retina resolution because they're just such a

0:10:07beautiful little finely detailed things it's not it's not like a typical three D.

0:10:12Game or stuff flying all over the place it's just you know it's very precise and it looks great

0:10:17and right now I think the game itself. I think it's more of a casual game.

0:10:21I think it is very beautiful and interesting

0:10:24but it's way too easy for anyone who's actually you know experienced gamer and plays games a lot

0:10:31and as a little bit short I really care about like there's like I'm buying it for the length of it was short

0:10:35and so I feel like I just should have a little bit more there in terms of the the overall expect maybe if it was harder

0:10:42and I had more of a challenge

0:10:44but I recommend it for lots of people who you know who find the games that I enjoy too challenging so I think that's

0:10:50why I had my daughter play is like well you'll be able to play this you'll be able to to do well

0:10:54and it will challenge you a little bit.

0:10:56I think you'd be bored by Margot but you still just want to just look at the graphics because like I said it is.

0:11:01It's the rare game that I can even imagine on a non retina screen being half as nice looking.

0:11:09So you said that it it's probably way too easy for an experienced gamer.

0:11:14So now a little concern that I won't be able to handle you well if I think I need to try it I haven't bought it yet I

0:11:22keep forgetting about it any time I'm sitting in front of my phone or i Pad just goofing off

0:11:26and so I need to get it although I may I don't know like maybe my things are skewed as I have seen tweets from people

0:11:32talking about like not so much getting stuck

0:11:34but having difficulty I can't tell if they're joking so maybe my idea of what's difficult

0:11:38and what's not is totally skewed so

0:11:39when you should just play it like just play through two levels will take you five minutes.

0:11:42Just tell me it was not like there's almost no choice like it leads you.

0:11:47It's it is very linear there's not many places that you can go wrong and the same could be said of journey

0:11:54but like it's different you know. Anyway try to do homework for you to try to first.

0:12:00A levels and it takes me thirty five minutes

0:12:01and I not admit it will not that of the first level to get thirty seconds to tell you about two minutes.

0:12:07One more quick theory about about gaming and losing interesting game in overtime

0:12:14and maybe this is just me I don't know and John I'm sure going to have a good explanation for this.

0:12:19I've found that one of the biggest factors I think that got me out of gaming

0:12:24and maybe just coincidence because it overlapped my age progression in my work progression.

0:12:29But one of the things I think got me out of gaming is so many of the types of games that I enjoyed.

0:12:35I fell out of favor and you know we would get almost none of them made anymore so for example I love to T.

0:12:42Platformer games sonic Mario any of the good to the performers I love those.

0:12:47But almost nobody makes two platforms anymore and incorrect. Well hold on hold on. And I did put it also want to X.

0:12:53Box Live. Shadow Complex I think is cool. I did put out one and loved it.

0:12:57And so you know for a while and maybe maybe now the indie scene is getting as back fortunately

0:13:04but for a while like once the three D.

0:13:07Systems came out the Play Station the N sixty four the Saturn it became like two the platform is basically one extinct

0:13:16for a while and the same thing happened with R.T.S. Games where I loved R.T.S.

0:13:22Games as you mentioned I told my Lucian phase earlier love their P.S.

0:13:26Games through my through almost my entire teenage hood and that's a word and. And then R.T.S.

0:13:33This kind of stuff being made very well after maybe two thousand three thousand four ish like supreme commander was it

0:13:41was like a big one it was awesome but nobody bought it and then they kind of went by the wayside as fantasy

0:13:46and M M O's kind of took over. And so if that kind of bothered me too.

0:13:52And and now like Iowa and I also I also love turn based tragic games but those are very few and far between.

0:14:00Almost never commercial hits

0:14:02and now with I.O.U.'s like some of the best casual games is you know are they used to be great

0:14:09and I want to get in for like five bucks and they were awesome and now they've all been ruined with freemium

0:14:13and free to play all that crap

0:14:15and so I wonder like you know is this just me am I am I just kind of missing the new stuff because I stop looking

0:14:23around like I do with P.H.P.

0:14:24or Is this like is this a legitimate reason why I've been kind of kicked out of gaming for a while.

0:14:31I don't know but there's two things there one there are John or has that become more

0:14:37and less popular time to think of it in terms of movies like murder mystery movies where the whole plot of the movie A

0:14:43summer is murdered you had to figure out who it is you don't see a lot of them anymore.

0:14:46Used to see some of them but like that that genre has become less popular it does happen

0:14:51and it comes in cycles you know what's popular now may not be what's popular fifty years from now

0:14:56and goes around circles on that front by the way there isn't a setting correct for the two to games that right now

0:15:01there's a massive Renaissance into the platform research on a particular like because I'm not into treaty platforms

0:15:06but they're all the place and not just in the game.

0:15:08Intend to bring out a brand new team Marielle games that I enjoy way less than the three D.

0:15:14Versions

0:15:15and there's just a constant stream of them in those are not in the things those are like you know they're their flagship

0:15:21titles and tons of indie ones so if you're into two D.

0:15:24Platforming like you cannot throw a rock without hitting to the platform.

0:15:28But one of the gunners you mentioned real time strategy.

0:15:31The type of real time strategy I'm talking about like I symmetric sprite based you know two D.

0:15:38Map kind of thing like before the age of three D. Hey wait hang on a second.

0:15:43Put on my leash and it was none of those by the way go ahead.

0:15:46All right I don't know what that into your real time strategy games are but yes they eventually went through anyway.

0:15:52They became less popular a lot of the reason they became less popular is because computers became more able to do the

0:15:58john or is that became more pop.

0:16:00So once first person shooters start to take over the entire universe and you could do any John

0:16:04or in first person perspective so there was first person everything real time strategy games became less popular.

0:16:11They're still out there I mean they're still Starcraft they're the things that they've kind of you know that same type

0:16:17perspective you see not that you know the album is not a real time strategy game

0:16:20but a similar perspective in that you're looking down on I well it's like a little board and clicking on people

0:16:23and doing things.

0:16:26Yeah if you get really into a particular game

0:16:30and a particular genre in a pretty particular implementation of that genre because people like oh I like real time

0:16:35strategy games but I don't like they want to do X. Y. and Z.

0:16:37Only like the ones that like what I was I think it was a myth on a Paschal about how much I liked him so different now

0:16:42there are D.S.

0:16:43Games if you're into those specifics you may have to wait for another one of those things to come around

0:16:47but what I would say is that the things you like about that type of game.

0:16:51Exist in other games

0:16:53and you shouldn't really be married to the genre like if you just like watching Murder Mysteries It's like what it what

0:16:58is it that I like about murder mysteries.

0:16:59Do I like the fact that someone gets killed

0:17:02and I get the same thing out of a Harmon we do like the fact that this is Spence

0:17:05and I could get it out of a different kind of thriller or am I just looking for a puzzle that I have to solve

0:17:10and that I should be watching.

0:17:11You know

0:17:11and I'm on movies with a stupid twist I mean like what you were getting out of those games are things you enjoy systemizing

0:17:17things micro-managing things you know do you enjoy like working the tech trees there's a lot of games you can play now

0:17:23perhaps like a role playing game with a big crafting trian like character development you may be able to get the same

0:17:29experiences out of different types of games or maybe that you just really like real time strategy

0:17:33and he does the wait until something like that becomes popular again.

0:17:36That's conceivable too

0:17:37and he says the same thing in every other medium you know what kind of books are popular now what kind of movies are

0:17:42kind of T.V. Shows I mean look at T.V. Program a lot of you are totally into for me like half an hour sitcoms.

0:17:49They're so hard to find out just like everyone has to have some sort of twist

0:17:52or angle in the one hour drama is you know hugely popular now.

0:17:56The one hour drama was like an aberration you know twenty thirty years ago.

0:18:00Now it's like everything has to be this gritty one hour drama like to make a show about Sleepy Hollow

0:18:03and it's like this big gritty thing you know.

0:18:05And whereas like the old sitcoms aren't they used to be everywhere now they're very rare

0:18:11and each one of them has some weird twist about them so I think that's part of it

0:18:14but I guess that gaming is not as broad as books movies or T.V. Is not yet anyway but it's getting close.

0:18:20But there's probably something out there that you would get the same type of enjoyment out of

0:18:24and who knows like maybe really go they don't make murder mystery movies anymore also

0:18:27and you start going to see like you know goofy comedies you may find out. I never watch T.V.

0:18:32Comedy where

0:18:33but I really enjoy them so there's a lot out there you know the funny thing for me is to take this aside just a smidge

0:18:40is that I find that I get really into certain games but only for a very small window of time

0:18:47and most recently it's been I.O.'s games but the I think I mentioned last episode

0:18:52or it might have that I played Metal Gear Solid through the whole way through I still love the Zelda games.

0:18:58Well I played a green of time and I don't think I ever had whatever it was for the week.

0:19:03But I'll find these games that I just are IM obsessed with some looking at my i Phone

0:19:07and i only have a handful games on there but like you know right

0:19:09when the i Phone came out I played the crap out of flight control for forever.

0:19:14When the incident came out I loved that letterpress loved that tiny wings ramp champ by the icon factory which is a

0:19:22much better game than anyone than a lot of people gave it credit for three days

0:19:26when I came out recently saw all these games I just kind of madly in love with them and I'll play them to death.

0:19:32Not only what I do when I find a song I just never looked back.

0:19:36So I haven't played threes in like a month and I was playing it non-stop for two or three weeks

0:19:41and maybe this is my personality but I know it's just the way I've approached seemingly.

0:19:46You're in the middle of the letter President me as me K.C.

0:19:48So any time you want to move six months I was that's a I've been hoping that that happened forever in fact it is bad

0:19:55like I still do enjoy it when I open it but I just never think about it anymore.

0:20:00And I think I heard Marco say that you're the same way like I get these obsessions

0:20:03but then just as quickly as I get the obsession then it's done.

0:20:08That's why I like with my limited time as an adult and a parent

0:20:11and all the other stuff the type of game that I gravitate to are two kinds one is the kind I can to spend for a couple

0:20:16of minutes of fun like whatever else is asynchronous turn based games like what aggressor or to friends

0:20:21and three's even a single player you know it's like yeah whatever just some quick fun

0:20:25and the other type of game I like is the kind kind of like the like to detective

0:20:30or than the new popular thing of one hour dramas that have a season long arc that that ends

0:20:35and then the cast changes as a couple shows doing that now

0:20:38and that I think is a good model because people like I don't want to invest in the show that could go on some X.

0:20:43Number of seasons I might not have a satisfying ending or whatever like where I met your mother or how to measure

0:20:49and watch a show

0:20:51but if people don't have a lot of time let's make it a one hour thing a one season arc that you will consume as a thing

0:21:00and be satisfied with

0:21:01and so the video games that are the non casual video games that I play are ones that are going to give me an experience

0:21:07for a defined amount of time and it's not going to be open ended

0:21:10and I'm going to play through it I mean not a side of their story based games whose journey is not really a story based

0:21:14game that's two hours a game play in an out like that is the perfect you know it's cheap I can get a little download

0:21:21amazingly enjoyable who may love two hours done and even something like The Last Of Us I think.

0:21:25I don't memory I was bored I may be sixteen or eleven or twenty and I remember what the stat was

0:21:30but that's a little bit longer

0:21:31but it's a single player there's a multiplayer aspect that I don't care about single player game with a story I play it

0:21:36has a beginning middle and end I'm done.

0:21:39It's not like I feel guilty like I never go back to yeah I finished it I played the game like there is a it is a unit

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0:24:27We're recording this on the last day of April twenty four teen

0:24:32and they are going to be available for purchase until May eleven is that right.

0:24:38Unlike that we had today they have a little over a week so we'll talk about this one more time

0:24:42and only one more time on the next episode.

0:24:45Near one thousand dollars they have basically a stylized version of our show art on the front

0:24:50and a little surprise on the back and I don't know if you want to talk about that

0:24:53or you want to leave it as a small surprise that's up to you Marco. I think you should check it out.

0:24:58I think you should go to the family or other thing is T. Spring dot com slash accidental.

0:25:05However we made a little shortcut in case you don't know how to spell T. Spring if you go to A.T.P.

0:25:11Dot F.M.'s flash shirt it will redirect you to the A.T.P. Dot F.M. Slash shirt.

0:25:16You must buy the shirt within the next roughly ten days or so

0:25:21and after those hundreds of comes out in the eight days so hurry up and buy the shirt.

0:25:26We've already sold a lot past the goal so this is awesome thank you very much

0:25:31and so these will definitely be printed and made they will make it in time for the U.S. For W.D.C. Probably.

0:25:38Internationally it depends on where you live.

0:25:41We've heard reports of some of them coming right before some of them right after so we can really guarantee

0:25:45internationally but in the U.S. They should be there in time to be ready See and. And yes so check it out. T.

0:25:54Spring dot com slash accidental or A.T.P. That F.M. Slash shirt and keep in mind that. Since we are so.

0:26:02The thought of it over us to pick a design that we like.

0:26:05If we have shirts next year it's very likely that it will be a different design.

0:26:09So even if you are some are living internationally

0:26:12or can't are going to see it all anyway don't worry so much about whether you're going to get in time for this year's

0:26:18day see if you order now you'll have it for next year and next year. Share it if there is one.

0:26:24Will very likely be different so this may be the only time to buy the shirt.

0:26:28You can decide whether that's a good or bad thing.

0:26:29When you look at the shirt

0:26:30but please do keep that in mind because tons of people keep asking me if they want to order a hypothetical shirts

0:26:36and I did have a girl here at the ready and I'm not sure I'm doing them again any time soon if ever

0:26:42and those people should've ordered when they were available herself I don't do this.

0:26:45Haven't you order something they're available for sale. You know I also wonder for those who are international.

0:26:51I have not tried this myself obviously

0:26:53but I wonder if you could arrange with your hotel hey would you accept a package for me. And so on and so forth.

0:26:58So you might even be able to get it delivered to your hotel. I know that is a possibility.

0:27:02So I mean the hotels usually will charge for that. But I know I notice possible.

0:27:06I did that one year to get a shirt delivered to convert to a hotel conference. But look into it anyway.

0:27:13And also because so T.

0:27:14Spring is kind of like Kickstarter where they have like you know the buying period for a limited time

0:27:19and then they do the whole run at once. They print them all and that's it. You can order them after that.

0:27:24So it is very unlikely I think that we'll get our act together and make a new design that we like in the next year

0:27:30or so. So definitely if you want if you're anytime between now and next May you could probably buy this one.

0:27:38All right thanks a lot.

0:27:41OK so we were actually I was a little nervous about not having a lot to talk about on the show

0:27:47and then just today Facebook decided to try their own hand at X. Callback U.R.L.

0:27:54Which was surprising for me anyway so they came out with Facebook app links and I should.

0:28:00We point out I guess it's the polls.

0:28:02So what is it like it's not a subsidiary of Facebook it's enough milieu with what poll says

0:28:06but I guess it came from there do you guys know what that is. OK good talk right.

0:28:13So apparently some like subsection for lack of a better way of phrasing it Facebook

0:28:18and they came up with appling says and so

0:28:22when you guys put this in the show notes it's probably for the best if I read this very quickly quote This is from

0:28:27their web site with uplinks Facebook wants to standardize deep linking to native apps by using special metadata.

0:28:33attached seizing added via H.T.M.L.

0:28:35The basic premise of Apple Inc is that if the user taps on a link on a mobile device

0:28:39and that link belongs to a Web site that in turn offers the same content in a native app with better features than a

0:28:45web view the link could automatically redirect the user to the app if installed on the App Store.

0:28:51With support for deep linking to content inside the app the goal according to Facebook actually considers

0:28:57and from the site anyway.

0:28:58According to Facebook is to provide the best experience to user who clicks a link on a mobile device with features to

0:29:05control what happens when a link is clicked on i OS Android or Windows Phone seven Frederica's right up actually.

0:29:10Yeah I think OK so this I pasted in this paragraph like first light I saw this Facebook appling thing like fifteen

0:29:17minutes ago so show stars I know very little about it

0:29:19but I pasted in this thing because it sounds like something I would never ever want the idea that I'm on a Web site

0:29:26and I tap on a link and it shoves me takes me out of the web browser puts me into an app

0:29:30and shoves me into some deep thing in the apple example the video is like so you're on a Web site you see a movie like

0:29:35human over the plain toward you tap on and the launch of the movie app

0:29:38and takes me into there about like I know example that gets annoying to have to go back to the home screen launcher

0:29:44taken by an app do the same search you just did on the web but like if I'm in a web site

0:29:48and I found the thing I would like to buy it there on the web I hate being I hate that little band that comes down says

0:29:54hey I know you're looking at our Web site the did you know we have a happy you could try that.

0:29:58The whole idea that like the app.

0:30:00Could provide better features than the web you look on the phone going to web browsing I'm doing stuff I want to do it

0:30:05on the web I got nothing that native apps don't have a place

0:30:07but if I'm never getting around the Web The last thing I want is to be chucked into an application deep linked

0:30:12or otherwise so I do not like the idea of this thing like I'm assuming people commenting on this about like the

0:30:21Internet communication thing that maybe I was told to do something about.

0:30:24I was able do something about or whatever will people talk about that and I can show in the future I'm sure.

0:30:30But that's about native apps talking to each other

0:30:32and cooperating you know multiple native apps coordinating to get a single job done

0:30:37and yeah I guess the web browser is one of those of the native apps but if I'm on a web page like

0:30:41and I don't like unlike those two things being an I don't like switching between those two things I don't care how

0:30:47coordinated they can be about where I jump back

0:30:49and forth I question whether jumping out at all is ever the right thing to do.

0:30:54Well generally speaking I would agree with you that if I'm in the browser it's probably a deliberate action

0:31:01and I have

0:31:02and I want to remain in the browser in the api enters whatever they're called at the top they just get away in a very

0:31:08annoying especially in the case that the app is ready installed.

0:31:11Maybe less so if you're trying to like advertise that you have an app in any case the one time where I think this makes

0:31:17a lot of sense is if for example for some reason I've browsed something in Safari

0:31:23and I end up on some really heavy media app lets take Spotify for example.

0:31:29I'm probably going to want to listen to whatever the song or playlist or what have you is in.

0:31:34Spotify is app rather than in mobile Safari so for things like that it makes sense

0:31:39but other than that I tend to agree with you John.

0:31:42I guess it's not the capability of it's bad so much as just as I see the potential for abuse in that if I was if there

0:31:48was a big badge that was like open it up in insert name of native app here

0:31:52and it was clear that's what it was going to do it sign.

0:31:55But these Web sites these companies are so desperate to get you to install and use their apps.

0:32:00I don't know why they're they just you know you better engagement with our Mike

0:32:03and uncle's voice Brynn's like it's just annoying it's like I rather do you just make your website good

0:32:11and I'll use your app if I want to

0:32:13but like now if we give them the ability to make every single link a potential minefield it's going to take you out

0:32:18into some native app. I'm not enthusiastic about this. Yeah I think definitely.

0:32:25I totally agree that this has nothing to do with X. Called a U.R.L.

0:32:28or An affirmation really that that's a different problem. I think there's a couple problems.

0:32:35I agree with everything John said so far which is that you have you know there are probably some some conditions where

0:32:42this is what you want what you want as a user

0:32:44but there's also probably just as many if not more where it's not what you want as a user

0:32:48and yet you could then prompt the user to ask what they want and that's more clunking as more complexity.

0:32:54It's one of those things where I have a feeling the solve the problem.

0:32:57Facebook thinks they have and they assume everyone else has the same problem but it doesn't really.

0:33:02There's probably not a good problem to be solved in a good way here.

0:33:06Furthermore I don't know how they could possibly get this to work very well because very effectively in the real world

0:33:13because the most common little browsers are mobile Safari

0:33:16and chrome is the one that are actually you know used for web browsing instead of sitting in a drawer

0:33:21or playing videos and I don't see you know Apple.

0:33:26There's almost no chance in hell they would ever implement this in the safari so that's out.

0:33:32Any chance of like you know a plugin architecture a mobile Safari that would enable plugins for this is probably also

0:33:37out.

0:33:39Google is winning this in Croom maybe

0:33:41but Google hates Facebook so I don't know if that's going to happen either you know what's in it for them probably

0:33:46nothing.

0:33:47Does this require browser support I mean reasonable to know where the requires browsers

0:33:51or well in the documentation I read through all the documentation

0:33:54and I didn't like it I don't think was very good I thought their examples were you know.

0:34:00Examples are always contrived but these are crummy they were just crummy examples

0:34:03but the way I understood it is if you tap a link in or if you end up on a page in a web browser including like a U.I.

0:34:16Web view in say tweet bot for example then if you see all these meditates made attacks whether called at the top of the

0:34:23of your document you can say oh I can build a U.R.L.

0:34:29Based on the information in these meditates and make a check you know with the with i O.

0:34:34West and say hey does this U.R.L. Is this a U.R.L. That you know about and if so just quietly.

0:34:41Well I guess not so quietly actually redirect into the apps a salmon Tweeple I land on.

0:34:45I'm using a browser in twee part I land on a Spotify page then tweet but can say Oh I see that there's this Apple Inc

0:34:53or whatever it's called

0:34:54and I see that Spotify is installed on Casey's phone so much punchier to Spotify that Marco did you read into this at

0:35:01all.

0:35:02No I actually spent about five minutes for the show looking at this because I think that is it for them so I could be

0:35:07totally wrong on this.

0:35:09Yeah I think that's the way I interpreted it and hopefully will either get a lot of e-mail saying I'm right

0:35:14or a couple emails of the diagram on the site is the one it's like it works across you know Windows Phone

0:35:21and Android and i OS and like right away.

0:35:25Well Apple has no interest in this and the thing is of Apple has no interest in it

0:35:29and I think as Rene tweeted us with a link to Rene and pressure no it's like doing this right.

0:35:35See there there's a reasonable chance and I'm going to say a good bet

0:35:39but there's a reasonable chance that Apple might have some similar type of thing having to do with maybe like a better

0:35:44version of X. Callback You're really something. Whatever Apple decides to do this it remotely in this area.

0:35:49That's what Apple's going to do that's what they're going to support

0:35:52and that's what everybody on the highways platform is going to support making a cross-platform standard is so hard

0:35:57when one of the vendors Apple is just going to ignore you.

0:36:00Never like

0:36:01and might potentially do its own thing because if Apple does don't think people will do whatever the hell I.O.'s

0:36:06supports because it is still by far the most popular platform for games where people actually give you money

0:36:11or for applications not just games but anyway.

0:36:15Yes I totally expect Apple to ignore this and of Apple ignores it it's a non-starter for the app platform anyway

0:36:22and that means it's never going to be cross cross Plus I know it's not been standard involves a lot of good looking out

0:36:26assignment that like your best bet would be to get the support of Leica W three C.

0:36:31Standard Zabol does support those but something coming from Facebook

0:36:35and trying to solve their cross-platform development difficulties. Apple is just not interested in that at all.

0:36:42That's not to say that any Apple is the one who had that stupid annoying dialog box

0:36:46and I complained about the dialog box says hey download your app

0:36:50but before they did that every individual Web site doing something even worse

0:36:54and the client side javascript to do the same feature.

0:36:57So really I'm mad at everybody who keeps trying to make their app out all Apple adding the feature to standardize it at

0:37:03least standardize the annoyance

0:37:04and makes it like it doesn't slow down the browser as much because it's no longer terrible client side jobs running

0:37:09but it's no longer a model dialog box or some something they like animate

0:37:14but they wouldn't use this accelerated animation so it would be like you know javascript redrawing.

0:37:20It was bad yet so reading more on the teaches article quoting again.

0:37:26Apps that implement appling so be able to scan a link that's been tapped by the user in a matter of seconds understand

0:37:32weather can be opened inside a native app to deep linking fall back to a web view

0:37:36or offer a way to download the app from the App Store so this corroborates what I was thinking earlier that you're in

0:37:40tweet buy you land on some page it looks at the page's H.T.M.L.

0:37:44and Says hey is there something I can do with this or not and then can handle it and dump you into the app in question.

0:37:51I mean I guess that's nice

0:37:52but to both your points without Safari supporting this I don't see how this is going to be that fantastic by the way it

0:37:59does also.

0:38:00There's a page fetch a requires it for eight let's say you've been an open Lincoln tweet

0:38:03but it requires people to first fetch the H.T.M.L. Of the page. Parse it for these.

0:38:08Look for these tags and then possibly offer you the option to redirect into an app for that

0:38:13and that's that's pretty crappy.

0:38:15Yeah the reason I put that quote in there that one they just read was not to give information about because I wanted to

0:38:20shame the copywriter who wrote it was like it's a little bit like Apple inks will be able to scan a link that's been

0:38:27tapped by the user

0:38:28and comma in a matter of seconds comma understand whether it can be over in a matter of seconds I sure as hell hope not.

0:38:35Like I know it's an expression

0:38:36but like the copywriter is like this the wrong order of magnitude for how long it's going to really take this

0:38:41cancelling thing you know is it really does take seconds there is a serious problem

0:38:45when even the wording there scan a link that's not really true it's you know fetch the contents of a link

0:38:50and then look at the contents to see if maybe you can open it I mean that's that's a different proposition.

0:38:54I guess I don't see this being why they don't you know John as you said like if there's no chance that Apple can

0:39:00implement this which I'm pretty sure that's the case then how much of a standard you know Facebook has a lot of this

0:39:06like platform itis going on and they always have this is nothing new.

0:39:10Where Facebook always comes out you know that Facebook and Apple both have their And Google for an Amazon of everyone.

0:39:15They all have their own their own breed of arrogance and Apple's arrogance is well known and well documented.

0:39:22Apple's arrogance is rushing to make their own thing in that you can make the standard if you want to.

0:39:27Facebook's arrogance is we're going to launch these platform the standards are going to be useful

0:39:31and implemented by everybody even when that's almost never actually the outcome to what they make

0:39:37and almost always just serve them at best

0:39:40and even they often abandon the things they make so you know it's I think this is this is a nice sounding story

0:39:47but I don't see it being implemented by almost anybody important and certainly not widely enough to matter.

0:39:53You know Facebook is not a trusted actor in this relationship right here because it's you know yes they're trying to

0:39:59make an open stay.

0:40:00But it's so clear that it's it is designed to solve a problem that Facebook has which is how do we deploy our

0:40:05application on all the different platforms Apple does not have that particular problem

0:40:09or at the very least has it in a very small version if they still make ideas for Windows beyond that they do not want

0:40:15to deploy their software on every mobile platform.

0:40:18So this isn't a problem they have and it's like why would we but we get on board with this thing that yes it's open

0:40:24and trying to be standardized but it clearly exists to serve Facebook

0:40:27and will probably evolve to continue to serve Facebook. If we're not sure that I you know that's of the three C.

0:40:34The only thing

0:40:34and even that is just like these big companies are all you know on the whatever in these in these working groups for to

0:40:40really see at each other's throats trying to fight for the little details of you know what image elements going to be

0:40:45used for multi resolution images on the web and whether we should support canvas and all of those stuff

0:40:50and so that is a form in which they feel like it's a moral level playing field where all the big companies are are at

0:40:56each other's throats trying to deal with web standards and whatever gets through more or less Apple implements

0:41:01but Apple also does the thing where it proposes a standard then implemented and shipped it to millions

0:41:07and millions of people and says well we already can implement to this

0:41:10and everybody does that help you go I think maybe you should adopt it as a standard like it's not.

0:41:18Yeah that's how standards work in the real world.

0:41:20The sort of you know combine that around the campfire I think we're all going to get along type of thing I call

0:41:27Facebook really to an open standard everyone should use it now. That's never what it's like.

0:41:31So what is what is benefiting from Facebook by having a standard way with which to deep link into an app because that's

0:41:40the essential premise behind this is not only that you can launch an app which everyone knows how to do reasonably

0:41:45easily.

0:41:46But here's a standard by which we define what data you're passing to that app

0:41:51or that needs to be passed that appen order to get to the exact content you want. So what's the play for Facebook here.

0:41:57Well it's pretty obvious it's for Facebook app it's so that.

0:42:00You know if you look say you know Facebook obviously encourages sharing all their crap as much as possible.

0:42:05Let's say you share in Lincoln something that goes to a Facebook property they want to be able to launch one of their

0:42:12apps directly into that so that they control the whole experience on your show on their web page

0:42:17or it goes right to their app and they get more information

0:42:19or that it's faster for the user so they don't have to go to the web first.

0:42:23They clearly want this for themselves I mean that's what they did.

0:42:26Then Facebook just have I've seen tweets about it and they have like their little developer P.R.

0:42:32Thing or some kind of that's called fifty eight hour God I didn't think of it that way.

0:42:38Anyway like I did not watch the speech thing

0:42:41but from what I've seen from Facebook in past months I'm going to pretend that I did

0:42:45and pretend this is what they said

0:42:47and I imagine that this is all part of the strategy that they have to stop being a single thing called Facebook which

0:42:54is a Web site the you go to or more abstractly an application that you use through the web browser and other things

0:43:00and start being a series of more special purpose applications circling around this giant hub of information they have

0:43:08about everybody and so I I think like things like paper paper didn't replace the Facebook app.

0:43:16It just kind of augment that I think what they want to make is a fleet of mobile applications for fleet of neighbors in

0:43:21need of mobile applications that all cooperate in interoperate with each other and with them

0:43:24and with the Facebook website to make one single unified Facebook experience

0:43:29and that's why they want to deep link from paper into the official Facebook app from the Facebook website into whatever

0:43:35other app they come out with like the idea that they're transitioning into all their anywhere a platform

0:43:40and they want to be a different kind of platform where all these different pieces

0:43:44and all these different platforms can all talk to each other and you know sort of cooperate

0:43:48or in some ways it is kind of like indirect communication but they're all their data is on the web and in the cloud

0:43:53and so they have to do their version of indirect communication is a way to basically deep link from one application to

0:43:59another into the way.

0:44:00It Out of the web so it makes sense for from what they wanted to why do they think they want to do it as an open

0:44:05standard.

0:44:06That's tends to be the way they do things

0:44:08and I think they would be happy if it became commonly supported because then they would have some assurance that the

0:44:13OAS or the Web browsers or whatever wouldn't change in a way that prevents their standard from working you know.

0:44:19Yeah

0:44:20and I guess I don't know it just at first I was like oh percent actually no this doesn't sound that after all it sounds

0:44:26like a cool idea until you think about it a little bit or try to implement it

0:44:29and start thinking about the realities of it and

0:44:32and how Apple will never support a noble safari in everything I just it kind of falls apart under scrutiny I think

0:44:37that's a very good way of phrasing it.

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0:46:26Also founded by X. Apple engineers it is a native application.

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0:47:14Thank you very much to that place from Georgia. So God help me but I'm about to bring up comics. Skip skip skip.

0:47:23I actually don't really have that much to say about the comics ology Amazon thing

0:47:28but I thought I should at least ask you too if you had anything to say to me it seems like everyone is acting selfishly

0:47:34as expected and there's nothing here to real nothing here. No but what do you guys think.

0:47:39I think Merlin covered a very well on back to work this week so it will be useless in that he did a really good job of

0:47:46covering the the nuance of this problem I mean my I had a quick blog post about it

0:47:51and I'm not going to rehash it here basically my opinion is that Amazon as the new owners are coming solid going to

0:47:58doing what they always do the kind of. When the always do.

0:48:01It's not really a surprise to anybody

0:48:02and it shouldn't be a surprise anybody the Dems on that in a way they always do and it kind of sucks

0:48:07but they have their reasons and that's it.

0:48:10Whenever we talk about tech topics where there is something that upsets you know basically you know people who aren't

0:48:18into following the tech industry and they get angry about it on Twitter

0:48:21and there are blog posts of like that of this a couple different reactions that I see

0:48:27and that are you know sort of reaction types.

0:48:31One is easy one where people like people are part of his her particular company if they're like one company I don't

0:48:37like another company whatever happens they're going to find out why this proves that Google is evil why this proves

0:48:41that Apple is evil like whatever like that they have their favorite company they have become if they don't like

0:48:46whatever happens those people come out of the work

0:48:48and do that so you have people who are really the Amazon fans defending Amazon

0:48:52and people who hate Apple's thing it's Apple's fault because you know that a straight up the other way as people are

0:48:59trying to figure out what's really going on and saying well it's really nobody's fault

0:49:02and it is kind of sort of trying to do the middle of the road type thing where they don't want to assign blame

0:49:09but they're sad about it

0:49:10and just like well just the way it is because everyone just has to be selfish kind of like a said before

0:49:15and my reaction to it is always a little bit I don't know if it's it's less common

0:49:19or people have my reaction just not read about it as much.

0:49:22I kind of like a parenting angle where whatever company I like the best like in this case will be Apple right.

0:49:29I know something bad will happen and I will decide that I'm very disappointed in the company that I like

0:49:35and thumbs down instead of the company

0:49:39and then taking out that is something I don't like it like oh well you know you are the company I don't like

0:49:44and this is your fault instead I will say what is it that my company did to cause this to happen you know like

0:49:50disappointed in my child like that I hold that I hold my children to a higher standard right is I don't care what other

0:49:55kids are doing. Why were you involved in so I mean maybe that's not.

0:50:00Real origin of the thing was just you know like the way I was thinking as I got my first reaction is always to blame

0:50:05Apple is it because I dislike Apple.

0:50:06No it's because I expect more of them you know I mean like that I have a high standard I'm disappointed in them.

0:50:12Yeah and we should point out by the way what we're talking about in case anyone was living under a rock this week

0:50:17and didn't realize what happened.

0:50:18Comics ology the popular comic buying app for i OS especially i Pad It was bought by Amazon

0:50:24and then like within a month they was on did basically just with the Kindle app does which is they removed the ability

0:50:32for comics ology to purchase for a new comic issues

0:50:35and that even our term comic issues I'm sorry my comics person so anyway I'm not sorry.

0:50:41Anyway we removed it at purchase

0:50:44and so now you have to like go out to the Amazon Web site separately by early cause all you have sight by is on by the

0:50:51comics there and then go into the app and download them exactly where the Kindle app works

0:50:57and that's almost entirely just to avoid paying Apple to thirty percent on the net on purchases

0:51:05and Apple has a couple of rules that you know that you have to you know given the thirty percent on an emperor

0:51:11and also that if you have a way on your site to for people to pay you without going through Apple for something that is

0:51:19digital you can't advertise that in the app

0:51:22and you can't link to it from the apps so you can't for instance like you can just have an app like a link in the app

0:51:28that kicks you at a safari first second you enter your credit card stuff on on your site.

0:51:32Avoid Apple's charge

0:51:34and then kicks you back in the app that's that's no longer that was that was only allowed for two weeks

0:51:39and they killed that so.

0:51:42So the issue is obviously you know comics ology under Amazon

0:51:47and as I did not want to keep paying Apple thirty percent

0:51:49and many people are blaming Apple for this including John I guess many people are are blaming Apple saying well they

0:51:55shouldn't be taking thirty percent or they shouldn't have that rule that you can't lie to your store

0:51:59and that's certainly. You know something worth discussing and a lot of people are mad.

0:52:02How much algae because they're ruining the experience here making it much more clunky to buy things

0:52:06and probably losing a lot of impulse buys because what would happen I guess from what I've heard is that you get to the

0:52:12end of a comic and it would ask you to buy the next issue and you could buy right there in start reading it

0:52:16and you can't do that as easily anymore so that's probably going to impact sales

0:52:20and only explain why blame out of this

0:52:22and have planned out before it ever since to do the same thing with the Kindle app.

0:52:25Way back when

0:52:27and it's not about the takeovers it's about the big picture in the big picture is the technology exists to provide an

0:52:33experience that customers like and not only just the customers like

0:52:39but that actually is beneficial to the people selling the goods as well.

0:52:42Like you said the ability to just write in the app impulse purchase comics every comic I've ever purchased in my life

0:52:47with the exception of I think one flimsy paperback and I'm a comic.

0:52:51Back when I was fifteen years old has been through the comic ology

0:52:54and why because it is so ridiculously easy I'm not even in the cult I don't even like comics

0:52:59but I've got the columns are the app and if you read one issue

0:53:01and ever put the buttons that you want to be the next one

0:53:03and put little present in whatever you tap the button like that the whole killer that is the killer app of the App

0:53:08Store the fact that you can with your thumb go and the game goes you know it goes awry

0:53:13and I mean it's that they don't think that the barrier to entry so low so technology exists for sure to do that

0:53:19and the experience is really awesome for customers.

0:53:21They love it

0:53:22and it's usually pretty good for the people selling the stuff too because they sell more stuff because the barrier to

0:53:27buying it is less.

0:53:29Anything that prevents that from happening anything that says yeah we could do this and yeah it would be good

0:53:33and all the sorts of ways

0:53:34but I don't care what the bodice is about like well they have to get thirty percent of its there then

0:53:39when I have a flat I don't I don't want to hear about the reasons.

0:53:41All I know is this is technologically possible it is not financially infeasible but it doesn't happen

0:53:49and so you say Well Apple's us through Amazon is choosing not to follow them it's Amazon's fault for doing that.

0:53:55This is not just one occurrence I mean I guess Kendall is also Amazon as well but like a lot of the.

0:54:00Don't have thirty percent to shave off to give the apple and he said well they used to pay way more than that brick

0:54:06and mortar retail store if that's true as well.

0:54:08We're supposed to be getting better over time in that like the the value you're getting out of being in the in the App

0:54:14Store is that we're thirty percent of the relationship you have with a retail establishment even though they took more

0:54:20off was much more complicated in terms of the English you know for books in the case of books being able to ship things

0:54:25back and dealing with them in Torreon having remainders market

0:54:28and like I would think that we would be having more efficiencies in this

0:54:32and I'm not saying they should charge less than the thirty percent not saying they shouldn't charge their percent on

0:54:36saying that it is in Apple's interest as the platform owner to figure out what they have to do to make it so there's a

0:54:42good experience that is that is definitely a win win out over the win win win to use the you know the business beacon

0:54:48of if everyone's going to be at least two of the three parties here are going to be happy with this they need to figure

0:54:53out a way to make it happen and the second thing that annoys me about is the strategy tax thing

0:54:57and that oh by the way did you know that Apple has a bookstore

0:54:59and they pay themselves they were sent Don't worry it's you know that that seems like is that the reason they're not

0:55:06doing because they want to promote my book so I don't think I haven't seen sells comics are probably on this case been

0:55:09the Kindle Store really burns me that you know candle can you know it kinda want to sell their books inside out which

0:55:16everyone who uses the Kindle app would love.

0:55:18They've got to give Apple thirty percent

0:55:20and really there is just I don't think this thirty percent hanging around to shave off of these things right

0:55:24and so they I think it is crank up their prices by thirty percent

0:55:27but then they have to match a store on the web store like all these rules that Apple set up are made to introduce

0:55:31inefficiencies in the system to sort of force people to really use their system

0:55:36and therefore not be able to offer people a discount for going to the Web site or don't use it

0:55:40and people are choosing not to use it and you can say well they're playing hardball now.

0:55:44Amazon's fault but at this point I think it's clear that Apple strategy of just holding the line at thirty percent

0:55:49and saying nope are never going to you know that's going to be this way for everybody and that's it.

0:55:53It's not working it's not making people it's having the opposite effect people aren't saying well what choice do we

0:55:58have I guess we just got to do it because we want to get. Our customers a good experience and we get more sales.

0:56:02The opposite is happening.

0:56:04They're just opting out and if they think they're calling Apple's bluff

0:56:08or whatever I think Apple called Apple needs to do something about it because we want to have you know I mean there are

0:56:15so many other things that are as good an android.

0:56:17But and really give you the option of not paying Google whatever percent if you use your own payment processor.

0:56:23Right yeah. So on Android you can if you use Google they they charge of their thirty percent just like the others.

0:56:29But there's no rule against using your own so you can build in your own mini a big upset

0:56:35and I want to point out also Amazon

0:56:38when they sell something they also tend to usually charge at least thirty percent on digital good session like for

0:56:46smaller publishers for self published people they actually often charge more than thirty percent

0:56:51and so this isn't like you know Amazon wants to give more to the authors.

0:56:56It's more like Amazon just wants that thirty percent for themselves.

0:56:59Well the others will get more but like

0:57:02nor in very knowing how Amazon splits up its money because that is a whole separate issue of yes you can definitely

0:57:07complain about Amazon they're not great about it you know like they want all the money for everything they want to sell

0:57:12your stuff below cost

0:57:13and give you nothing for they want to give your thing away free like Amazon does that's just talking about the

0:57:17relationship between Apple

0:57:18and everyone else because that's where the dysfunction is like we get if we could address this

0:57:22and we could buy things inside the thing then the secondary disfunction be like OK well how much of this purchase price

0:57:27after Apple gets its cut goes to the creator

0:57:30or whatever so I think that's a little bit of a side show in a lot of people like Well this is better because some of

0:57:34that thirty percent will go to the content creators and that's probably true

0:57:37but that's not why I like Don't hang your hat on that is the reason we should be able to buy things I and I.I.

0:57:43SAP It is an artificial situation brought on by a platform owner

0:57:47and someone who wants to be in a platform butting heads and

0:57:51and we are the loser the customers are the loser in this situation

0:57:54and in the beginning it was like let's see how this shakes out

0:57:56but now after all these years I think Apple needs to do something different.

0:58:00I don't know what that different thing is everything you buy Amazon you know brain is a different thing you.

0:58:05You lower your percentage you come up with a different kind of deal like because consumers are suffering for it

0:58:09and that I think is the primary response addles like oh we just care about making great products.

0:58:15It is not a great product when I can't buy cando book Inside the Kindle app is just not well.

0:58:19So yeah I disagree on this point on that the idea that Apple has to do something that Apple is somehow you know losing

0:58:26here or they have to mean there's there's one side of this that's untitled

0:58:29and argument I don't think is entirely fair one side of this is you know well we should we will do whatever we want on

0:58:35this computing platform because we're able to do whatever we want on Macs and P.C.'s

0:58:39but the reality is like you know I.I.S.

0:58:42Is get it's mostly like a computer platform and

0:58:46but you know there's no third party software that doesn't go to the App Store unless you jailbreak So that's literally

0:58:51can.

0:58:51But this isn't a technical issue this isn't a safety issue this isn't a technical issue this is an ease of use it is

0:58:57like it's a capability thing that we know is possible it's a bit it's an artificial business constraint. Well sure.

0:59:02But OK so this is this is only a contentious issue because Iowa is the dominant tablet platform for people who buy

0:59:11things and read them on tablets that they also use for anything else in the world.

0:59:14So what if the dominant portable computing platform was you know what if it ended up differently.

0:59:21What if the dominant tablet or the dominant portable computer platform was the Sony P.S.P.

0:59:26or What if it was the Kindle you know then you look at the Kindles.

0:59:32No one ever had apps on that I mean they had a quick little Katie Katie thing that died thank God it was to have data

0:59:37best. You know you could make after the Inconel Apple could not make i Books for the candle.

0:59:44Apple probably also could make i Books for the P.S.P.

0:59:47As a game console game console work very differently similar to how the app store works.

0:59:51Although probably on worse terms of imagine

0:59:53and so you know there's you look at other types of computer vices that aren't just P.C.'s and Macs.

1:00:00Other Other times you can hear devices that are you know owned by one company that are kind of vertically integrated

1:00:05etc They don't they work usually the same way that Apple does with the same kind of rules

1:00:10or more restrictive where they take bigger cuts.

1:00:13So

1:00:14and including one of Amazon's own platforms it is very very popular because the Inconel platform so I don't really think

1:00:21that it's that Apple has to do anything here or that the necessarily unjustified or there

1:00:27or that they're being excessively greedy. I really don't.

1:00:29So your argument is that because other people do bad things Apple is also entitled to do bad things.

1:00:34No my argument is that you as as Company X. or As individual X.

1:00:40You are not entitled to access Apple's customer base on your own terms that you dictate.

1:00:47But it's not it's not there it's not the Amazon that has the entitlement I'm having the entitlement of the customer.

1:00:51I'm supposed to be the one that Apple is serving like they're they're reducing the value of their products to me

1:00:56through this fight that they're having with Amazon over this like the Amazon is certainly certainly not entitled to

1:01:01access Apple's cuz that's the whole but the whole fight is over like those two companies are fighting

1:01:04but we are the losers we are caught in the middle

1:01:07and a certain point us being the losers affects Apple more than it affects Amazon than as I can go anywhere

1:01:13and selling to whoever them of the UN cares much less about who the winner is in that whatever space than Apple does

1:01:19because Amazon will promise us we'll try to get you to buy.

1:01:23Yes they have their own platform too

1:01:24but that's not like they're shunning I.O.'s Android they will still sell where they want to sell it's us losing

1:01:31and I was willing to give it a couple years like to see how it would shake out.

1:01:36But if for example Apple had become ridiculously dominant like they were had ninety percent market share

1:01:41and everything.

1:01:41Maybe Amazon What a loss this one maybe they would have gone back to selling in the app

1:01:45but it didn't work out that way and so I now I think it's time it's time to readjust.

1:01:50I see I just don't see that pressure being that strong an apple here.

1:01:55I think Apple is not fulfilling its responsibility as a platform owner to me.

1:02:00It's products the best they can be for its customers in the long term not just the short term.

1:02:04Well I guess that I was willing to give them a year or two to play hardball and see how it went.

1:02:08But it is going badly for them and I blame Apple because they're my child I will disagree that it's going badly

1:02:15but also one more thing I think Apple could probably look at this from another angle

1:02:20and say you know you can't if you're proposing a change to abstract policy you can't just look at it as what with what

1:02:27would like good implementations do with that what would good people do with that you know how would that be used well

1:02:33if they also look at it as how would that be used terribly How would that be used by scanning people by crappy

1:02:38companies like King like how how would that be used by terrible people and terrible companies

1:02:44and if allowing other purchased systems that Apple does not run would also introduce a huge risk of an erosion of trust

1:02:55in the payment system by bad actors like you know big game companies with purchased scheme stuff like that like bad

1:03:04actors having their own credit card and put things in their apps that then behave badly.

1:03:09But who is suggesting that though no one is suggesting that. Well so also that's you know one of the options.

1:03:14There's a couple options to solve this.

1:03:16One of the options is to reduce Apple's cut let's say they've cut in half to fifteen percent do you think that would

1:03:21change anyone's mind.

1:03:22I'm guessing not let's say all the rules are the same

1:03:25but the cut goes down the most feasible option for feeling like what's a practical solution

1:03:29when you actually want them to do two things one on it I think aside they should make it possible for someone with it

1:03:35where the catalog volume the size of conduct ology let alone Amazon itself if there's any limit.

1:03:40Amazon is going to hit it with like you know an Amazon dot com for example you know like that sells everything that

1:03:45Milan sells because their catalogs mess.

1:03:47But anyway make sure that's all set make sure you have a system in place

1:03:52and then what I would change about it is it's ridiculous that they have this hard line thing where it's got to be

1:03:57seventy thirty with everyone cut a deal with them with.

1:04:00I think it's not insane like oh it's unfair why did they get a special deal because they're Amazon dot com You're not

1:04:07Amazon dot com You get a different deal I don't think that's unreasonable

1:04:10and Apple seems so tied like it's seventy thirty and never changes every street equally is not nice

1:04:15and fair for everybody.

1:04:17It stops being a ten of a strategy

1:04:20when your consumers are made to have worse experiences because of I don't know what crazy principle that you want like

1:04:25you know each individual apple developer to feel fair I don't think it's unreasonable to cut a deal with them about

1:04:31figure out what you have to do.

1:04:32The terms that you don't even need to be public I don't care what Amazon and Apple have to do to

1:04:37or with each other behind closed doors deal to happen. Just do what you have to do. If someone complains.

1:04:44Hey Amazon getting a special deal when you get to be the size of Amazon

1:04:47and then you'll get a special deal too like is that crazy in my my breaking secret rules of the App Store by suggesting

1:04:54this insane idea. Well it would be breaking with a lot of precedent.

1:04:58Historically Apple has generally very consistently enforce the same rules for everybody big and small

1:05:06and much of the big companies chagrin and a lot of cases

1:05:09but they generally do not negotiate major exceptions to rules like that even with companies big in Amazon or Facebook

1:05:17or the New York Times very point that they really have not done that and I agree they have

1:05:21and I think it's only that they haven't.

1:05:23See I don't know I mean there is you know a lot of the App Store

1:05:27and a lot of its problems honestly are because of this this kind of like almost sort of mostly democratic system that

1:05:36it has often been

1:05:38or it is in a lot of respects like the top list is you know famously minimally filtered you see like crabby scam out of

1:05:46there all the time because they're not really monitoring it that closely

1:05:50and you know it's worth arguing whether that's a good thing or a bad thing.

1:05:53But but most for the most part the app store is run on a pretty level playing field.

1:06:00Where big companies are not allowed to break rules that small companies can't also break

1:06:06but not breaking a rule if you if you have a deal like the anger in the chatter about this is a dress a couple of

1:06:11things then to me says they really think that of Amazon is given a better deal they will automatically pass the money

1:06:16to the counting prints Not course not I didn't say that down that anyone said that.

1:06:19Again we're not talking about Hamelin demise of the money there's a whole separate issue that's totally not what I'm

1:06:24talking about I don't know what Amazon would do with a probably not because that's not how they work

1:06:28and then people feel like comparing it to like bribes and corruption.

1:06:32This is it's a business relationship when you win when Apple is buying parts from someone who makes like screens

1:06:39or widgets or whatever. They negotiate a deal to buy those screens.

1:06:42They get a better price than you do if you want to buy ten of them.

1:06:44That's business of bribes

1:06:46and corruption is just how business works you get volume discounts if you're going to drive a certain amount of

1:06:50business you get a better deal.

1:06:51I don't think that's corruption or bribe that's that's just that's just how business works.

1:06:56It's a contract

1:06:56and no one else is entitled to see how much sense I'm paying you for screen that would not entitle to see that.

1:07:01Like that's individual contracts with businesses.

1:07:05Someone's bring up anti trust Apple doesn't have the market share in any market to be even remotely considered trendy

1:07:12trust except of the crazy people who are going to say that Apple has a monopoly on Apple computers I love that one that

1:07:17never gets old if you know it I understand why you want to have uniform rules

1:07:24and that's a good idea right up to the point where it seems like there's some sort of problem here there is definitely

1:07:28a problem.

1:07:30And like maybe they could never come to the like of a can come to a deal they can come to a deal

1:07:34but as far as any of us are aware they've never even considered this is an option I mean another example is they hell

1:07:41they held the line on I imagine a lot of the rumors about like Microsoft in office and why isn't Office available.

1:07:47Michael doesn't want to give Apple thirty percent of its software sales right.

1:07:50And so that went on for a long time till vengefully Microsoft blinked and produce office

1:07:55but they found a way to do it without giving up a cut because you have to sign up for office three sixty five.

1:08:00No father Wait is that true.

1:08:01I thought they were giving up on the car if you bought in the app for the for the subscription you mean I thought it

1:08:06was a little of both I thought that the way that Microsoft hopes you go is you already have an office three sixty five

1:08:13subscription you got on your own accord.

1:08:15But I believe Marco you're also right that there is an inapt purchase of some capacity that Apple does get a cut of the

1:08:23like the thing I was talking about early on was Microsoft Office will be available for the i Pad will be ninety nine

1:08:28dollars Apple will get thirty percent of that and that's not Microsoft it's not what happened.

1:08:32You know like they have the subscription model

1:08:35and they're free right to free download it so that that is you know it's a different mind elation strategy as opposed

1:08:43to simply selling office at a premium price and giving ample time to send it right off there

1:08:47and like in that case there would be no way to get office without paying Apple thirty percent

1:08:51and now there is a way download a free app go to Microsoft's website where they offer you the same price as you know

1:08:56purchase and even that took a long time to figure out.

1:08:58I think customers didn't really lose out on that one and I think Apple kind of won that battle

1:09:03but the battle over an application through which you naturally want to buy things and consume them right in them.

1:09:09Apple's not winning that battle for whatever reasons and I think something should be done about it

1:09:13and I mean thus far because Google is so incompetent and Varia

1:09:17and has not been able to penetrate the market people are like will screw up on was going to get an android because

1:09:22you're not like I think I've had to go back. You know again I think it's apples still.

1:09:28Maybe that's what they think they're like we're still in the driver's seat eventually will win this

1:09:31but there's a lot of years of suffering have gone on already with the Kindle app

1:09:34and it's just going to the comics ology is is a drop in the bucket

1:09:37and we just see a lot of it because you know we know people who read comics and are angry about it

1:09:42but I think it is a way of a type that will continue coming up until someone figure something out.

1:09:48So what about this as a proposed alternative.

1:09:52So the Times in which we all get bitter about the thirty percent seem to be as so far as I can tell. He's selling.

1:10:01So Amazon or comics ology is reselling the the comics in their app.

1:10:07What if Apple announced that hey if you come to us

1:10:11and can prove to us that you're a reseller then we'll drop the fee to fifteen percent or something like that.

1:10:17And so for things like games where you're not really reselling anything and then you still pay the thirty percent

1:10:24and you can't just make a shell company

1:10:26and say yes I promise that the shell company isn't me you have to actually go to someone in Apple

1:10:31and prove to them by whatever means they want that you are simply reselling

1:10:37and you are not providing your own original content

1:10:39and thus it's not it's not reasonable to give Apple thirty percent you will give them the lower tier cost

1:10:46but you don't need to think that hard about this you can do think if you're so stuck on doing uniform rules

1:10:50or you just like volume discounts if you sell X. Amount of dollars we get X.

1:10:54Percent and if you know ten billion dollars I mean like there are plenty like it which Microsoft does that.

1:10:59These are not like new technologies in the world of business like this our business is work forever is just of the apps

1:11:04the App Store is the aberration.

1:11:05Can we apply this uniformly to everybody

1:11:07and not have any variability for volume so that if you sell three in purchases for virtual coins versus thirty billion

1:11:13in purchases you get exactly the same percentage and I think in being endeavour and you know the like

1:11:18and it's only a problem until like it's making your platform worse to deploy applications on the Kindle app is worse on

1:11:24i OS in this respect than it is on other platforms that allow purchase

1:11:28and comics ology just got worse because the previous company that owned it was going to bite the bullet

1:11:33and give the thirty percent surely shaving its margins

1:11:36and potentially also showing how much money go to kind of creators

1:11:39but who cares they were willing to do this because that was how they got traction they got enough traction the guy

1:11:43bought of Amazon from a Sun doesn't need traction Amazon is Amazon dot com So yeah they take with everything because

1:11:48when I was on does it's not like I'm saying Amazon is the scorpion here it's like well it's in its nature it's going to

1:11:54do that like I think I was on those play evil things too.

1:11:57On thinking about it why is the platform that I use on my tablet.

1:12:00Getting worse for me to do things I like to do on it and I just want it to be worked out.

1:12:05Marco before you jump in I just like to point out I understand the scorpion reference I said I'm going to have a

1:12:10critical and you listened you know John you're you're assuming that Apple needs to address this

1:12:16and you're in your position you're arguing that it is an assumption you're you're arguing that Apple needs to fix this

1:12:22and I just don't see the urgent need and I think the Kindle app being this way for so long I mean it's been what four

1:12:29or five years to probably three or four years of the going to have been this way.

1:12:34That's been there long enough and it doesn't seem to really be affecting Apple sales or customer satisfaction.

1:12:41You know overall it doesn't seem to be that that you know Apple's really like being held to the fire here that they

1:12:48really have to change this.

1:12:49I don't I don't see the big push I don't see why they would have to do any of these things why they

1:12:54and by the way I think lowering their cut too.

1:12:57Anything would not please Amazon I think Amazon wants to own the whole experience

1:13:00and the whole processing of anything that is potentially right.

1:13:03But then but at that point I could stop blaming Apple and say Well Apple offered them my point or one percent

1:13:08and it's all rejected it's like all that viable holding.

1:13:10Yeah I mean honestly I really do think

1:13:13and if I want to own the entire customer process not just that commission they want they want everything to be going

1:13:19through them only and so they have full control and full access

1:13:22and I really don't think that a rate cut would do it for them.

1:13:26Well the idea that like they don't need to do it because like well they've been doing it for years and Kindle

1:13:29and it hasn't hurt them right.

1:13:30It's difficult to tell or hasn't heard them

1:13:32but like the one thing I would point to that like a metric to say well maybe they would have sold more i Pads of you

1:13:38could have bought they like a hard to prove like rarer

1:13:40but the one thing you can point to is gold Tim Cook's favorite customer sat kind of them

1:13:44or sat around people who read comics has suddenly gone down I can tell you that and I think customer

1:13:49and then can go up

1:13:50and didn't have a deal like customer sat on people who use the Kindle app would go you know WAY higher for their i Pad

1:13:56that they could buy things trip you think about that like some people.

1:14:00They consider their i Pad like it's my comic reading device

1:14:03and like that's what they use for I bet there are people out there who can settle their Kindle reader

1:14:06and if suddenly those people could buy the things like they got to the end of series one of the book series

1:14:11and it was a little page at the end of the Kindle day

1:14:12and said Do you want to start writing the next one tap the button you tap the button a little spinner pay for two

1:14:17seconds and you're reading the next book.

1:14:18Their customer sat with their i Pad would go up like that is a metric that you can track that they talk about a lot

1:14:25that they should be watching.

1:14:26Is it causing people to not buy pads I don't like maybe Customer satisfaction is disconnected from their bottom line in

1:14:33big ways

1:14:34but they do care about it because that's their whole thing is like we're trying to make great products that make people

1:14:37happy.

1:14:38And here's a case where they're intentionally choosing not to do something that they know make people happy because of

1:14:43a fight they're having with a competitor about pricing and I so I guess that it's OK to do that for a while

1:14:48but the way it shaking out doesn't seem like Amazon is going to budge

1:14:51and you know customer satisfaction with these experiences they're still not going up to the level they know it could be

1:14:57or going down in the cases where applications of the backslide.

1:15:00So assuming that there's no rate change that could get Amazon to actually accept that

1:15:05and do everything directly through apple assuming that the only thing that would allow them to offer an app purchases

1:15:11on Apple's platforms in a way that Amazon would approve would be to do a Google allows which is to just have their own

1:15:17payment processing in the app that you know an apple would just remove the rule that you can't do that.

1:15:23Do you think the net gain from that in overall Apple ecosystem customer satisfaction assuming that anybody else could

1:15:30do that same thing assuming that you had said earlier like assuming that you know King could put their own payment

1:15:36system in candy crush to make thirty percent more and that any random After put their own credit card system in

1:15:40but you keep you keep going back to your own payment system No the suggestion that I would never suggest that people be

1:15:45able to do their own payment systems.

1:15:47So you're basically putting forth the idea that Apple should negotiate a lower rate with Amazon

1:15:52and then Amazon would probably accept a lower rate.

1:15:54It's not just Amazon like Sam is on a hard place hardball like we will give you a red cent. You'll never get any of it.

1:16:00Thing I think if you don't you know if for example Amazon's policy was if you don't let us implement our own payment

1:16:05then screw you

1:16:05and then I would say that Apple interest not to say well you implementing your own payment system would make it worse

1:16:11for our customers so it's not actually we're not going to be a customer so I news ever get it

1:16:15but then that would mean like Marvel unlimited knowledge other like comics knowledge you had white label versions are

1:16:20absolute people going to work out now that I was on to them

1:16:22but there's a potential for other people in the market to say well we'll do a deal for the people who own these comics

1:16:27and we will sell comics electronically and we will let you buy them from within our app

1:16:31and you would see the people who are into comics they will screw comics all the I'm not using them anymore you can even

1:16:35buy into the app I'm going to this other thing I'm going to description plan like those ones where you pay a monthly

1:16:39fee and you can read X. Number of comics like a competition.

1:16:43Hopefully in the realm of comics maybe not in the realm of books

1:16:46or anything else would make it so that other people would spring up

1:16:48and say well you're not willing to pay Apple two percent but I think two percent of the reasonable transaction fee

1:16:52and we're going to pay it and now everyone going to come to our unknowns going to buy three

1:16:55or think of it I want to go to a Web site to buy stuff I'm looking at you know just what effect these kind of decisions

1:17:01would have on the entire ecosystem and on all developers who and all users of it

1:17:06and I don't I don't see a scenario here where Apple could make a change that would be that would dramatically improve

1:17:14the situation with Amazon stuff and would would be a net benefit

1:17:19and you know wouldn't have too high a cost in users as I think you know even ignoring the money Apple would lose on

1:17:25that reduced or last commission.

1:17:29I don't see this is being a net when I see you know bad people taking advantage of it

1:17:34and an erosion of trust in buying i OS apps and paying for things i O. S.

1:17:37Which should reduce customer satisfaction but that people do it with a reduced rate based on volume

1:17:43or otherwise you get a reduced rate that's that's something that I think would probably only negatively affect Apple

1:17:50but I also don't like I don't see Amazon taking that deal and you're right maybe someone else will

1:17:55and maybe you know maybe that'll be the situation but see I just I don't I don't see the big.

1:18:00Need for this I mean you know people or people are mad.

1:18:02This week they'll be over next week

1:18:05and even now most of the anger is going to comics all Juda Amazigh Apple's not even getting hit by most of it.

1:18:10Yeah

1:18:10but the customer satisfaction with their i Pad goes down they're less satisfied with their product I mean like maybe

1:18:15it's like that doesn't reflect on Apple maybe they blame comics ology But what if they next time there they need to buy

1:18:20a tablet.

1:18:21By then they have long since heard that this isn't a problem on Android and they read you know comics there

1:18:26and can buy them right in the app.

1:18:27Maybe that will change their decision like it's small but you know these little things add up.

1:18:32Books I think is bigger the Kindle app is bigger

1:18:34and they cannot have the advantage that I'm pretty sure you can never buy them

1:18:36and so the collapse was not going to be was ever taken away

1:18:39but if people find out that oh if you get a Kindle Fire you can buy was in the app that may attract them

1:18:43or to rekindle fire especially if they start using a tablet mainly as a Kindle device.

1:18:47I feel like it

1:18:48and you want to said this earlier because the I for me was Mark because the i Pad is so much better than everything

1:18:54else on the market I don't think that customer sat will be influenced negatively enough to level the playing field.

1:19:04I think you're probably right and that's what Apple is counting on to build these little things add up

1:19:08and I was going to send you a chair

1:19:09and says that the white label versions of comics ology are keeping their in that purchase

1:19:13but like I said now that Amazon owns them I wonder how long those white label versions of comics ology Apple are going

1:19:19to be in the world at all but clearly the people who are currently using them.

1:19:23I think the companies that put out the comics themselves actually white label them those people are highly motivated to

1:19:28get away for a people with I O. S.

1:19:30Devices to be able to easily buy their comics

1:19:33and apparently there they have been willing to pay a thirty percent I assume they will continue to be willing to buy

1:19:37thirty percent

1:19:38and that could be a way that Apple quote unquote wins this one by basically saying well no more you can't college

1:19:43anymore we'll still get thirty percent and thirty percent from these other people instead.

1:19:49That's that's potentially true as well. Like I'm just tired of the game of chicken.

1:19:53I feel like it's gone on for too many years

1:19:56and I don't want to see I don't want to see ads coming on to the platform and just.

1:20:00We're all just him of course you can't buy within the application of course you have to do the dance to go through a

1:20:03website and like a little some can look at going to ask me Grampa why why can't I buy things inside applications.

1:20:10They well ten decades ago three decades ago I wrote I can't do math anymore than old Apple decided that they want to

1:20:18charge everybody thirty percent and everyone else aside they were going to pay it

1:20:21and Apple still makes the best tablet that we have to do this because of a fight between these giant corporations.

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1:22:14So we done in the comics thing that we don't have anything to say about.

1:22:17I didn't listen to the Back To Work episode yet I'm still behind so I don't know if Marilyn had to say about it

1:22:21but sorry if I repeated I mean the stuff that he said he mostly took the kind of middle moderate ground of like this is

1:22:28all more complicated than we understand

1:22:29and you know we kind of shouldn't be making assumptions like we understand everything going on with these big companies.

1:22:34OK Well yes we did overlap although we did talk about like you know I tried as glamorous as far as we know because who

1:22:40knows like what overture is any one company is making the Apple who knows what response Apple making to them we just

1:22:45know these people are out publicly

1:22:47and what they end up doing I don't think this is this issue is going to be resolved in time soon between you know Apple

1:22:52with their thirty percent rules and they're no less Journal payment processing rules versus Amazon

1:22:58and their desires versus customers and their experience I just you know the Kindle app has been this way for years

1:23:03and it's and has not budged

1:23:06and neither side has budged at all so I don't I don't see that changing for a very similar applet the same parties

1:23:13involved that has a much smaller audience.

1:23:15I just don't see it changing the volume discount thing has the advantage that it lets everybody pretend that they

1:23:20didn't budge because Apple can say well we still apply the same rules to everybody.

1:23:25People say well we were going to do a but we got Apple to change the rules

1:23:27and now you know because what the what that encourages is you're encouraged to drive more business through Iowa sell

1:23:35tons of crap because the more stuff you sell the lower percentage goes and so that would let everybody save face

1:23:41and like you said maybe it wouldn't bring out of them back to the table

1:23:44but even if you ignore Amazon if they're going to be buts about it then fine.

1:23:48Tons of other people be like oh now I am much more highly motivated to figure out a way to sell goods through the app

1:23:54store because I like if I just saw a little bit I find if I sell tons of them as a percentage that gets taken goes down.

1:24:00Only the people selling the most for the app store are you know companies you mention who are using existing in a

1:24:06purchase system to sell digital coins to people who are busily into dollars and write well and they are to like.

1:24:13There is pretty much like besides Amazon one of the one of the major examples are there that would have enough of an

1:24:23impact that that that are in for meeting customers enough and and are bad enough

1:24:28and we know for customers that Apple would be more pressured to act beyond just let's just keep thirty percent of its

1:24:35working great for us.

1:24:36You know you got to convert potential things like if Apple wants to be able to buy things to arrive pads

1:24:44and I think they should because I think that's a great way to buy a lot of content that can be digital.

1:24:49And I think it should use a single unified system that Apple controls for an aperture so everyone isn't like all the

1:24:54things about it that we like. If there was more of that it would be better.

1:24:58So anybody who's going to sell that could potentially find its way through the invisible airwaves to your i Pad should

1:25:04be encouraged to do so.

1:25:05Some of the Sharon brought up like I had look where the revenues coming from of it's all coming from the big guys

1:25:10and they wouldn't change the rate because then they basically Apple would be losing money.

1:25:14Like why would i will ever do get a volume discount of all their income

1:25:18or a huge amount of their income is coming from the big guys.

1:25:20Yeah Apple will make less money like this is the problem of this whole thing is that people you know I go out will run

1:25:25the i Tunes Store break even and that's not really a profit center and I know the App Store is like take up.

1:25:30It's really just enough to keep the lights on but it is always been like apples and know their secret strategy

1:25:36or whatever but it has been pretty clear like you could see Apple five years ago rubbing their hands ears

1:25:41and yes ignore our break even businesses they're totally not there to make money just to make our devices more valuable.

1:25:47They know that it is you know this is what you want the type of system where we don't have to do anything more

1:25:53and we magically get money like the people can drive more and more money through our systems.

1:25:57We like that the margin is better than having to make.

1:26:00Metallic when to sell somebody it's much easier to December let someone tap another button

1:26:05and send get another thirty percent cut of a transaction is going to our system and lo

1:26:08and behold years down the line suddenly Apple's business is like i Tunes is not the roads are going to break even I

1:26:14started to make some significant money in the App Store same thing like oh it starts

1:26:17and it's just enough for us to cover costs or whatever

1:26:19but I have a feeling that Apple would like it if these businesses stop being breakeven

1:26:24and start making some serious money

1:26:25and while people aren't paying attention that's where they're going so any potential planet says we're going to give

1:26:30you less revenue because of your volume discount. It's like Apple might be thinking.

1:26:35I know we've always kind of pretended this is like a break even the we're going to this it might actually be a break in

1:26:40business and we're not Amazon we don't we actually want profit so there are forces against any idea like this

1:26:47but it's almost like I wish it would hurt them more because you're right that it's not hurting them

1:26:52and that it's clear that they have to do this are going to be out of business

1:26:55or they're doing that's totally not the case.

1:26:57It's just like he's just like a little thorn in your side where you know it could be better

1:27:01and some day you are going to have to explain to your mom who got a Kindle Fire

1:27:05when she gets her i Pad the i Pad It's better

1:27:07but I'm I can before I could buy the books on the thing you will have to explain that to her

1:27:11and good luck making it sound reasonable.

1:27:13It's impossible to not reasonable Apple product is worse in this one small way and it galls me

1:27:19or I should just get a patent just buy things and i Books. That's a fate worse than death.

1:27:26Thanks for two or three sponsors this week.

1:27:28Fracture back plays and new relic and we will see you next week after her and she is going on.

1:28:07Yes he was said for that skill list

1:28:11and the director you want talk about this weird test flight thing that we've been putting off forever it's really old

1:28:39news now. I forgot what it is now.

1:28:42So Bursley was acquired to do we even know like is there any actual confirmation that apple of the acquire the Internet

1:28:49said so and I think even that is is not definitely not confirmed

1:28:55but test flight basically just like very quietly shut down like it stop accepting new new applications

1:29:04or new customers to beta test the apps with it and it's just like quietly shutting down

1:29:09and they never made an announcement about this they never explained it.

1:29:13They just like a very very quiet shutdown and so the theory is that Apple bought them

1:29:19and they're probably going to integrate you know maybe first party.

1:29:23Maybe Apple might actually integrate test flight like functionality into the provisioning portal for A.O.S.

1:29:29Absolute we could stop doing the stupid U.T.

1:29:31ID dance with with things like hockey and test flight another beta testing type things but.

1:29:37But I don't know

1:29:40but I would love it to be the case I would love for the story with test flight to be that Apple's building something

1:29:45like this in and that's why it's showing them. But first it was also a big mobile ad company right.

1:29:51Was not or analytics one of those things.

1:29:53So Apple might have wanted it for that

1:29:55and has little side project they had that wasn't making any money travel just you know made them quietly shut down.

1:30:00If you could be any of these things I would put money that they're going to do the thing a test I did inside Apple just

1:30:06because it makes so much sense that I mean any time you see a bunch of third party sites popping up the developers are

1:30:12using like water developers using hockey outlasted Alvarez using test flight. Apple hates that.

1:30:18Yes I think there's something that you know third party developers need to be done.

1:30:23There should not be a thriving ecosystem of companies that serve these developers needs to do these things if the thing

1:30:31they're doing is something like and it's common. So Apple wants to eventually have a solution to do that.

1:30:36If they bought this company

1:30:38and this company did that I would say it's almost guaranteed that what they're trying to do is get something in-house

1:30:42that is similar to the thing that they did.

1:30:45Seattle and probably this is probably just like you saying nothing ever get better in the App Store

1:30:49but it can sometimes.

1:30:50Yeah it's some kind of psychological barrier that I have where especially in areas like this like the provisioning of

1:30:57devices the U.T.

1:30:58ID limits you know beta testing being such a pain I can't fathom Apple actually making a major improvement to this

1:31:06and I guess I will be proven wrong.

1:31:08They're probably still give you a list of ideas that only rotates at a certain level still be plenty things to annoy

1:31:14you I'm sure.

1:31:15Like just general experience of provisioning and the ability of people to easily download betas and distribute.

1:31:22Like I'm assuming they will fix some of the annoyances but I guarantee there will be more there remain.

1:31:26Just don't worry code signing will still be terrible so you'll have that.

1:31:31I don't I mean like I've heard rumblings here and there from the rumor sites

1:31:34and everybody that like you know this might finally be the year where where Apple like really makes things better for

1:31:40developers in the App Store so you know the tools that the Xcode has fantastic been improved a lot.

1:31:46Good to see the language has been improved a lot and all the tools there are really great

1:31:50but then you cross over into like the provisioning and i Tunes connect and the App Store rules

1:31:56and the pricing mechanism and you know upgrade.

1:32:00In trials

1:32:00and all that stuff the developers knowing forever I have no faith that Apple will ever improve that stuff because they

1:32:10Biggest have it like the App Store has been running now for what six years five years and it

1:32:15and this stuff is almost not changed at all. They've been very minor changes.

1:32:20But then to think they have been kind of in the middle of a multi-year arc where they've been adding lots of stuff so

1:32:26fast that they haven't had enough time to essentially make it work.

1:32:28Yeah I mean like that the whole I mean the thing

1:32:32and there's like they've been doing a lot of stuff to code signing provisioning profiles and betas and like

1:32:37and sandboxing in the sandbox bookmarks on the macro opening up like they're adding all sorts of things you can do

1:32:43and revving their compiler children like they've kind of been out running themselves leaving a trail of crappy half

1:32:48implemented things behind them.

1:32:50Hopefully at some point they will get to where they can circle back

1:32:53and say that's what I hope they're doing by buying test lies like we're OK We had a way to do this before the way

1:32:58sucked for years now we finally have a chance to take a breath

1:33:01and say let's go back instead of adding a new capability

1:33:04but merely make it less incredibly unpleasant to do with something that you could previously do you know I mean

1:33:09and I'm hoping that they're at that point I mean I I say it may be a move in that direction as well no there were over

1:33:14the seven hundred you know so I will say yeah maybe.

1:33:19I hope you're right I don't have high hopes I don't have a lot of faith but I but I hope you're right.

1:33:24It might not be this year could be next year. We have made me an asshole.

1:33:30Nope I quietly Bre launched my website that's not on tumblr anymore

1:33:38but one of the your L W W W directly to a stock car really inventive and that's my that's my second crack

1:33:46or third crack if you will and I don't really have a name for it.

1:33:50What do you what is the directory called for the project. It has to have something it does.

1:33:56It's camel CA M E L which is my kind of.

1:34:00Where support man you know how to pronounce a word but you see it on Wikipedia all the time.

1:34:05It's a mash of my first middle names.

1:34:07But anyway so that's all written in node and everyone's probably breaking it now and that's OK.

1:34:13So what's it going to take to get you off of the using your last name of the pond thing as an impossible task.

1:34:19It's never going to happen.

1:34:20No I mean I couldn't think of a good name and I was so that's so in many ways it's kind of a mash up of underscores

1:34:27and your two sites both in terms of inspiration for C.S.S.

1:34:31Inspiration for layout things of that nature and

1:34:36and so I I look to underscore site after I had decided to call this thoughtless and he just calls his David Smith

1:34:45and obviously there's hypercritical there's Marco dot org I don't like A C.

1:34:49List dot com I don't have a fancy pants name like hypercritical that I've been using for forever so I don't know this

1:34:57is the first thing that I came up with that didn't make me gag

1:35:02but I'm not in love with it either so didn't you read that whole post that you wrote about not doubting yourself you

1:35:08should not have the title of the thing that says that your thought was I did I was coming that's why I was like if I'm

1:35:14not in love with what we've got here but. But that's right.

1:35:18I've never seen you use the the list last name pun in a way that wasn't self-deprecating.

1:35:25Well you know that's kind of my schtick because it sounds like the last thing was on a lot of goodwill.

1:35:33Wait less and whatever but this is node

1:35:37and I've been piddling with it a little bit lately I only do a clock on it four hundred five lines of code.

1:35:44Basically the way it works is there's a series of markdown files in a dream directories that match the directories you

1:35:52see in your roles and then there's a header and footer markdown file

1:35:56and so if you go to any of these any of these your L's.

1:36:00And during fireball silence he put out M D at the end it'll show you the source

1:36:04and so I have a little bit about it in its top

1:36:06and then other than that it just processes the markdown files throws on a header or throws on a folder

1:36:12and calls today

1:36:13and so it's four hundred five lines of node using several packages because I haven't yet been horribly burned by third

1:36:23party software and I'm pretty proud of it I like it.

1:36:26Not enough lawless but I like I should call flawless that's why should they go.

1:36:32Finally you figure one out that is not so temperately all because that has flaw in it is like the flaw letters with the

1:36:39flowers. It's like you can use the last name of the I know I know I got to think of a better name. That's pretty even.

1:36:45Even your brag had had if I had offered and he was marked down I might replace mine with it

1:36:54but it does so I want what's wrong with mark down your appearance right on your everything

1:37:00and actually came out straight.

1:37:01Again I find that for me I find it better hope that I don't want to go there no translation. I going to publish H.T.M.L.

1:37:10I know I read it stem out I write it. I publish it.

1:37:13No I don't have to say how I was going to transform I don't need to do it like a transformation it's just not the tower.

1:37:19I don't say that every of us do that

1:37:21but that's the way I do it in a way most people seem to like markdown until they make Ollie that's the work of markdown

1:37:25and if you don't he's marked as well what it's worth marked how much I want to phrase this wrong

1:37:31but the markdown is H.T.M.L. Now that's the other way around.

1:37:34Yeah I know you can just write as you know mark until it's like once and that them without the police.

1:37:38Well so what I'm saying is with the. So if you look at any one of these U R L's and put the dot M D I did.

1:37:44So I'm looking at the A.T.P.

1:37:46Shirts one as example as an example you would have to have the AT and then you know the couple meditator entries.

1:37:52but everything below those. Everything below that can all be straight H.T.M.L.

1:37:57This looks I know but like this looks like my thing like I have the same.

1:38:00Format only don't have at out that have met it in the top..

1:38:03I just use the email format with the first blank line in the Header section and then I have the H.T.M.L.

1:38:08Yeah I do something similar because I have I have like header format on top. Keep talking all show you one of mine.

1:38:18Mine's weird but it makes sense to me.

1:38:21So in this that's what this is about it made sense to me I wanted to try something that I hadn't done before which is

1:38:27node

1:38:28and I didn't like the code I don't love the code a part of me wants to throw it on get her been embarrassed myself

1:38:36but I really want to fix a few things up for I do it like for example it's a good thing I only have to post on there

1:38:43because if we go if I go past the No ten it's going to look ridiculous because I don't see pagination at the moment the

1:38:51figure that you know I mean

1:38:52and I actually already have a plan I just haven't implemented it yet I'm going to do like the world's worst pagination

1:38:58which is kind of a loose pagination want to get it worked out maybe we'll talk about another after show.

1:39:02But yes I'm I'm pretty proud of it look it's white not because he always says white it's white because I can figure out

1:39:09a background that I wanted to like it of course

1:39:13but I don't know if I felt like I needed to spend all this time like working out better C.S.S. Because I suck at C.S.S.

1:39:20and I for a brief moment like I thought about copying the Marco you know one color at the top

1:39:25and then everything else blow and then I looked at it the way it was and was like you know it's good enough.

1:39:30My wife asked why fuss over it so I'm pretty proud of it as simple as it is

1:39:34and maybe I'll open source it may be along if you're even thinking about showing this code to anybody it is a lot

1:39:40better than throwing because I would never show it. I don't like looking at it myself.

1:39:45If it's bad but it's not awful there's definitely a lot of places where it could be cleaned up in and spruced up

1:39:53and made a lot cleaner I'm repeating myself in several places.

1:39:57But by and large I don't think it's terrible I mean to be honest.

1:40:00How bad can he really screw up four hundred five lines check the scripts Leaving aside the fact that a transcript in a

1:40:05lot of bad jobs you know it's definitely possible when the other thing is this.

1:40:11And I'm looking at the source that you paste in the chat Marco This is not a link blog I have no I have no support for

1:40:20like a link post vs a regular post but so it's just a block but I don't want to get so far.

1:40:27Yeah I don't have any support for playing things either another ever post them

1:40:30but I mean if I did I would guess I would go ahead support whatever the risk is the real problem is that he likes

1:40:36everyone is already used up all the obvious characters for indicating things

1:40:40and I completely agree one hundred percent agree the one hundred percent the problem.

1:40:45Well you could steal my arrow afterwards is there after her before your hour everybody uses

1:40:50and verifiable use of the star for none.

1:40:53A lot of other people you that everyone use the infinity for permalink sinners just like there's no more glyphs So game

1:40:59over. But what's wrong with just using the standard glyph that everyone else uses.

1:41:03If you want to be different Marco you want to be your own special snowflake that he won't want to be a brand where you

1:41:08can't be your own special snowflake That's Dr Dre The real problem with with Link blogs I think is that you know

1:41:15whether there's two problems.

1:41:17Number one is is like what the feed items link to the letter which option you pick people will be upset

1:41:24and confused to different people you know that's true. So that's that's one problem. There's no good solution to that.

1:41:30The other problem is when you're when you choose a title

1:41:35and a length of the post it's confusing as to whether you wrote this whether that's your title of your post or

1:41:42and then like some people will get to get to your link post permalink page

1:41:48and not realize that that big title at the top is a link to something else.

1:41:52Well I mean you can avoid that by not making that the title to be a link to anything on the page

1:41:57when you're viewing it and I mean.

1:42:00When you're viewing

1:42:01when you're viewing just the page it just shows that story the title is not a link everybody thought the title is a

1:42:06link and then you have to choose where you want to go

1:42:08but I would say you may go to that you know I don't know it's like where does the link go

1:42:13and only post on a bronze from it I would say goes the story like I like the idea of linking from the text that you

1:42:20write to the thing you're talking about and not relying on the title to fill that role than kind of redundant

1:42:26but then I don't like that the big problem link blogging is that all of these questions like there's no clear good

1:42:33solution like whatever you pick is going to have to pick one of people and people have to get used to it.

1:42:40Yeah there is that's one of the worst but most people don't think either of us any more these days.

1:42:44Kind of takes care of it so I just use both I have an alternate feed of my footer that that has the other link style I

1:42:51just noticed that earlier today which I had never seen before obviously the other thing I wanted to talk about briefly

1:42:56about this was how I'm hosting it which is to say that I'm put I put it on her Roku because for anyone where I know as

1:43:05they call it it is absolutely free

1:43:07and I have from what I can tell this didn't get absolutely crushed under the load of live listeners.

1:43:13But but what was unique to me was that

1:43:19when I went to deploy to Heroku having never used Heroku before I looked at how to do it

1:43:27and what it amounted to was I needed to add a proc file to my source which specifies that it is a Web site not like a

1:43:36worker's anything like that and it's a node

1:43:40and which node file to run I needed to clean up my package Jason which defines what my dependencies are.

1:43:48But that was it and then I pushed to a get repository that they set up

1:43:53and suddenly I had a website I now know their system anymore because I thought it was generating static files

1:43:59but I forgot that. Actually using a code runs when you know I got a static.

1:44:04Well in so basically everything is generated on the fly leisurely

1:44:09but once it's generated it's held in memory for some amount of time I don't recall.

1:44:14So you're right it isn't static but nevertheless I would assume that it should hold up to some pretty heavy load.

1:44:23Well you can do the the credit thing which I considered before I decided even this was too much work with make a system

1:44:29a demo here it's web pages and is Croyde yourself to create your static pages and upload the stuff

1:44:35or maybe someone in your ignorance coming through

1:44:38but if I have everything in memory how is it going to be that hard to answer.

1:44:43Because billion requests like it's all there it's rendered H.T.M.L. In memory.

1:44:48I just gotta look it up from a hash and dump it to the to the to the requests

1:44:53or to the response object so what else is there to worry about

1:44:58but the thing with with all the static blogging systems static blogging is is really great but

1:45:04and I use it on my site but you can get almost all of the benefit from just caching

1:45:11and we can start a blog you have to change a few things.

1:45:14If you do static want to main things is you have to serve the same markup to everybody in the same seat like you have

1:45:19to serve the same content for every hit you can do server side browser detection or device to action.

1:45:26Altering what you send in a mobile way out separately like you have to serve everyone the same market

1:45:31but with responsive design and with the removal of comments

1:45:35or even outsourcing comments to other services like discussed where you just embed a static javascript link

1:45:40and the thing works. You know if you really all dynamic functionality to javascript embeds or to C.S.S.

1:45:48With response Bisan then it works now.

1:45:51You can do that exact same thing either through a static system

1:45:54or just just put like a caching proxy in front of your server and put like you know. Varnish or our engine X.

1:46:01In caching mode you know put those in furniture we're just have a cash every hit for one second.

1:46:08That's it cash every pay your service with T.T.L.

1:46:10Of one second you'll be able to tolerate almost every possible flood of traffic you will ever get.

1:46:16Even if the thing to be generated from a database on every hit that actually gets through it's a static point

1:46:23and it does offer high performance but it also just offers a pretty strong degree of simplicity for deployment.

1:46:29So the again I like I'm not doing it for performance reasons doink isn't cheap. Hank is there anywhere.

1:46:35SUPER to like I don't need anything to run any code

1:46:37and that's like it's not just people like you have the most options like it will literally work everywhere there is no

1:46:42you don't need to run anything you don't need to have any in software there is no software like that's static blogging

1:46:48is not underarms reasons it's just mostly for just you have all the options in the world it's going to work everywhere

1:46:54on every single hosting thing you can possibly imagine.

1:46:56And yes it will also happen to be performant and all of them

1:46:59but that's not really why you're doing it like it just keeps the whole Ana there is software they just move it.

1:47:04I mean that's what they like you said there's no suburb unless you're actually writing H.T.M.L.

1:47:07Pages which most people are not doing. There absolutely is.

1:47:11Software involved and it has to be maintained and has to run somewhere.

1:47:14It is running on your computer like the thing that generates the files.

1:47:18Oh yeah no yeah well I mean get

1:47:20but you control that like it's not your deployment options are unlimited you can move from one hosting provider to

1:47:26another you don't have to worry if they if they don't it's a board no day as sir.

1:47:29DEVORE different version or make something

1:47:31or complicated thing you need a different point it's like it is arcing file somewhere

1:47:36and that's you know if you have a site that actually gets traffic then you don't worry about this

1:47:40and find write some code to play I don't like my site doesn't get in traffic I want the cheapest possible thing I can

1:47:45possibly get and that ends up being static hosting and you know if you get what you pay for

1:47:50but US That's why I did it static

1:47:52and that now because I was looking performance like Occasionally I do get traffic Burress

1:47:56and it's nice that I don't have to worry about them because again stay on it.

1:48:00But it is super staggers and some people like well it's static

1:48:03but I use like you know some server side include system

1:48:07or something to put in headers No one hundred percent static Yeah

1:48:10and that's the thing is that admitted Li this is dynamic the first run

1:48:14but like I said you know as soon as I've parsed the markdown for any of these pages it's held in memory for at least

1:48:21half an hour if not more than that until I either deliberately toss the cash or you know at times out of whatever.

1:48:28So this isn't a challenge or anything like that

1:48:31but I I feel like I should in principle be able to understand it to handle a crowd or the traffic without crumbling.

1:48:39Yeah like years of static in the respect that really matters for performance

1:48:42and that you're not like talking to it you're not talking to a database.

1:48:46Sample the files that you're reading are static they just happen to be some of markdown

1:48:50and you do a little bit of post processing in memory and

1:48:52and it's not like you know it is a single process like event driven right you know the same thing over others that you

1:48:57don't you know the worry about your cache getting divided through a patch you children

1:49:00or some other concern that you might have some fun

1:49:04and really just like me no one's going to read your blog so we're both except really really no one's going to read my

1:49:11blog Whereas me

1:49:12and nobody reads Here's where you can compete you'll be surprised if you could will read my blog where you never post

1:49:17which says that exactly if you know imposing nobody read another works and admittedly I'm not good at that either

1:49:22and I'm hoping this will make me better

1:49:24but I don't know yet I just it was a lot of fun it was a lot of fun to do I'm still I'm still very impressed with how

1:49:31unbelievably simple Heroku was to deploy to.

1:49:34Because truly I had heard of it but never really done anything with it

1:49:38and it must of been well under half an hour maybe even under fifteen minutes between the time I said you know what let

1:49:43me just see if I can throw this on her Roku and if it'll work and the time that I had it not only up there

1:49:49but I updated my D.M.'s to point to it. It was unbelievably quick and easy and that that really is awesome.

1:49:56But at the five dollars a month if yo dollars a month. Yeah yeah he's beating you up.

1:50:02Yeah I guess that's true but then he's stuck the point some places for snow days you know they also support P.H.P.

1:50:08Now what sort of one of the limits like Wendy's had to start paying.

1:50:12I have no I honestly don't know I mean basically if I had more web front ends then that costs money

1:50:19but in terms of like bandwidth or you know I don't know if it if after thirty gigs used or something like that

1:50:25or you're not going to have a band with limited IP like C.P.U.

1:50:28Time or something we need to do is get one of your stories to go over like Hacker News

1:50:31and like a bunch of other sites simultaneously saying The Daring Fireball link and Marco a link it

1:50:36and everyone will tweet it

1:50:37and we'll see if you get into the pay czar because I like the part even though I don't have an ending my blog post

1:50:43every once in a while some random story will land on some social media site

1:50:46and all of a sudden I'll have a spike it's not a big spike

1:50:49but it's big enough that I would worry that I would go out of the Free Zone

1:50:51and start getting charge them praising them. I love that that's how the world control K.Z. By making him popular.

1:50:58Yeah I think we need a way to test the system there right.