The Accidental Tech Podcast

64: It Never Died Because It Never Lived


  When someone says something funny first and that we are ignorant of most or all get right on that. [TS]

  Those another case where we got a bunch of feedback that I thought talk about something we had covered the previous [TS]

  show but apparently we did not do a good enough job so if we don't get the job done the first time we'll go back [TS]

  and try again. [TS]

  This was about three games and the topic came up when both of you had said that you would play video games [TS]

  when you're younger and didn't play them as much now we talked about why that might be [TS]

  and I talked about the average age of a gamer and I brought stats from the USA I think on the last show [TS]

  and talk all about this and couple people wrote in to talk about the difference between people who play video games [TS]

  and people who are self identified to gamers. [TS]

  Some people wrote in to say oh I just play a couple hours games now and then I certainly wouldn't call myself a gamer. [TS]

  One of the best ones as I was Joe Lyon who wrote in to say a section from what he wrote having put in hundreds [TS]

  or thousands of hours playing games over the past couple of years I by no means consider myself a gamer. [TS]

  Tell him in a lot of people in the argument terms a time my God just play once in while not a big deal [TS]

  but this guy plays games all the time and it only counts hundreds [TS]

  or thousands of hours like him playing during the commute just obsessively playing games finishing games or whatever [TS]

  but does not consider himself a gamer and the discussion was not about what I would call a self identified game [TS]

  or it was just about the idea that you know the market that most people you know like you thought it was a common thing [TS]

  that like you play games when you're younger and you didn't play them anymore as an adult. [TS]

  Self identify gamer is a whole other ball of wax human as many people point out including Joe line like I watch T.V. [TS]

  All the time. Do I identify as a television watcher. [TS]

  No it's not it's not like it's not the games you play is not how long you play them. [TS]

  Identity is totally up to the person I would call myself a self identified what I would call myself a gamer Cerise [TS]

  and Harley outside. [TS]

  How many games I play how long I played and I guarantee I play games that last for less amount of clock time. [TS]

  Then then almost anybody else who considers themselves a gamer so that's more of an identity in a cultural type thing [TS]

  and has nothing to do with that [TS]

  and it certainly has nothing to do with what we were discussing which was Is it common for people to play a lot of [TS]

  games and young and stop when they're older [TS]

  and by going through the stats on gamers they discover that that's not the case that in fact there was [TS]

  but one of the stats we've all of us like twice as many adult women play games as males under eighteen [TS]

  and the average average gamer is like our age so it's very clear that the majority of the people who are playing games [TS]

  today did not stop playing games when I got older. [TS]

  Up on a second I've got to go and say good night to one of my children [TS]

  but I always back you can you can you can just vamp for a sec and make a nice cut point and I'll add something in [TS]

  but they have the other back and I will know you're never going to be able to make a reasonable out of this [TS]

  but tough like those I think who are left. [TS]

  I believe you finish that follow up bit so we're moving on to other follow up. [TS]

  Yeah I guess that's all I had to have a video games a bit. [TS]

  Basically that the thing the message that we failed to get across was that the entire discussion was not about self [TS]

  identify gamers [TS]

  and I was not part of this feedback from July into that we needed to define the terms better if we did a bad job [TS]

  or that I'm sorry [TS]

  but that's we were not talking about stuff that we're just talking about the phenomenon is common for people to play [TS]

  games and then stop playing them [TS]

  when they're older regardless of during any of those times were they considered self-evident of high gamers [TS]

  and like I said I don't think that tag has anything to do with any criteria you might bring up that you could measure [TS]

  like how long you play what types of games you play how obsessed you are of the games I mean like that's more [TS]

  and you know you choose to identify yourself as you choose. [TS]

  If that's some part of your identity again with television I don't mind. [TS]

  Part of my den meis not that I watch television but part of my identity is that I play games. [TS]

  Why because that's what I choose to do and it's up to each individual person [TS]

  but that's not what we're talking about right. [TS]

  So we also got a lot of feedback about our discussion what was really my source here because this discussion about [TS]

  comics ology and in app purchase an apple in who's at fault who's on first What's on second I was on third [TS]

  and a lot of people wrote in to compare your arguments John to the arguments [TS]

  and I hope I get this I think it was right against Net Neutrality So this whole discussion about fast lean on the [TS]

  Internet [TS]

  and oh if Netflix is pumping a crud loaded data across Comcast pipes then you know what Netflix should probably have a [TS]

  discount or maybe even pay more depending on who you ask and so can you address how this is either the same [TS]

  or different to net neutrality. [TS]

  It doesn't really matter whether the people who are sending the feedback were for against net neutrality [TS]

  and in fact I think what they want wanted to say was that all those people who said that feedback I would guess the [TS]

  real debate they want to have is about net neutrality because regardless of which side they are on the Apple thing what [TS]

  they're trying to say is this apple situation is similar to net neutrality [TS]

  and if you don't have the same opinion about both situations you're being inconsistent therefore you're wrong about one [TS]

  of those two things [TS]

  and it doesn't really matter if I think you're wrong about Apple comics ology they were wrong about an editor Audi [TS]

  or whatever they just want to see some consistency and I didn't like a lot of this is over Twitter [TS]

  and I have time to send back tweets that explain this whole big long thing. [TS]

  Although I tried to a couple times on Twitter before I realized it was pointless [TS]

  and for e-mails if they could we would address it on the show because like one or two [TS]

  or three sponsors came in you know like no big deal and wanted to trade it [TS]

  but it was super common that everybody was like you're going to give. [TS]

  You're saying that Apple should cut a deal with Amazon [TS]

  and how is that any different than the iris P's cutting a deal with Netflix or Amazon or anything like that [TS]

  and I think it's different in a couple of ways. [TS]

  Some very important some less important or you can decide which ones you find more convincing. [TS]

  The biggest and most important difference and what I tried to express and what are good I thought oh here's this. [TS]

  Think way to express this is Apple doesn't sell access to the Internet. That was not convincing to anybody. [TS]

  There's like so. So what what's different about the Internet and Apple selling access to its customers. [TS]

  Give us a thirty percent cut we let you use our payment system and get access to our customers [TS]

  and I wasn't about to try to explain in one hundred forty characters what difference between access to Apple's [TS]

  customers and the Internet is but I will try to do so now. The Internet the Internet is that it's a series of tubes. [TS]

  Yet by definition there is one internet anything you connect to the internet becomes part of the Internet the Internet [TS]

  is the way we are all connected to each other there are not multiple internets there's not one not two there's not five. [TS]

  If you made a second one [TS]

  and it connected to the internet it will become part of the Internet because every place in the Internet is reachable [TS]

  to every other place plus or minus Nat knows stuff that's like. [TS]

  Conceptually that's what the Internet is it's how we're all connected to each other. [TS]

  That is very different than getting access to the customers of the second placed cell phone you know platform [TS]

  or any other type of thing like that like maybe if Android didn't exist and I guess of Microsoft didn't also exist. [TS]

  You would have a little bit more of an argument [TS]

  but I would say that even in that case the possibility of something coming up that would be similar to us like a vendor [TS]

  didn't exist like well Google could enter the phone space and make their own operating system and platform [TS]

  and bizarre Apple could or enough of our Amazon could [TS]

  or Microsoft could write no one is saying well what about one competitor to the Internet comes along there's this whole [TS]

  Internet thing could be you know replaced by just some hungry competitor comes up with the in the new Internet the [TS]

  Internet too which is a thing that exists look it up in any way I like. [TS]

  Still you know I'm sure it does and I'm sure it will eventually be connected. [TS]

  What about the I P V six Internet will come to replace the old Internet. That is not much of a possibility. [TS]

  I think happening these days the Internet access is the the Internet itself is a very perhaps the only unique singular [TS]

  or different than everything else. In many many different ways. [TS]

  Like I don't think it's unreasonable to say that the Internet is so different from the I was that store that doesn't [TS]

  apply but if you know fine I can hear there. [TS]

  They're basically the same thing it's a bunch of people connected through tubes into each other you know. [TS]

  It should be the same. [TS]

  The second part of this thing and this gets into the nitty gritty does net neutrality is in the United States. [TS]

  Your choice for getting internet access are much more limited than your choice for a cell phone provider pretty much [TS]

  anywhere in the United States can get an i Phone has the opportunity to if it's in they go for the i Phone they get a [TS]

  phone that is team Mobile Prepaid they can you know get an Android phone you can get on one of my dumb phones like that. [TS]

  Your choices for cell phone tablet so on [TS]

  and so forth no matter where you live the United States you have many different choices [TS]

  and a lot of places United States you only have one choice for internet access [TS]

  and some of those places where you might have two choices [TS]

  and you will have one choice because there is constant pollination a lot of these places have local monopolies. [TS]

  And the reason they're local monopolies these are the third reason in the United States anyway I don't know about the [TS]

  rest of the world [TS]

  but in the United States a lot of our Internet infrastructure was built essentially with taxpayer dollars these [TS]

  broadband companies got billions of dollars in tax breaks in exchange for OK well we'll give you these tax breaks we'll [TS]

  help you out here the government said as long as you build out your network to provide more people with access because [TS]

  we have the government to decide it's for the good of the nation then more people have broadband access Therefore here [TS]

  is a billion dollar write off for you to continue to expand your networks. [TS]

  So these networks of these speeds have some whom are a monopoly [TS]

  and in their particular local markets weren't just built by those via speeds they were built with taxpayer money [TS]

  and they have been operating for many years in a way that is neutral to that where they don't decide you know who's [TS]

  traffic so they sped up and slowed down based on who will pay them all. This I think makes the Internet. [TS]

  It's complicated by the fact that of course I was asked our runs over the Internet [TS]

  and if you want to think about that you can say well OK what if Comcast decides they want forty percent of every bridge [TS]

  to the App Store everybody go nuts right. [TS]

  I think they are extremely different situations [TS]

  and I don't see any inconsistency in saying the internet this strange singular thing that in the United States is only [TS]

  accessible to people through a single broadband I speak in many locations there has been a partially paid for by [TS]

  taxpayer money and has operated in this sort of common carrier situation for many many years. [TS]

  Should be treated differently then one vendors app store [TS]

  and put a link in the will put in the show notes the recent via hard video trying to explain that neutrality which is [TS]

  kind of a boring weird thing to understand but she does these little things which he draws on a notepad [TS]

  and talks over it and maybe will make it any clearer but at least you'll be entertained. [TS]

  The fun thing about her example is the case you allude to when you watch the video. [TS]

  The example she gives the way she tries to draw an analogy is that the customer who uses a lot like Netflix you know [TS]

  it's like wow a huge amount of the traffic going through these high speeds Netflix uses the eyes these go the netbook [TS]

  and say you know thirty percent our traffic is from your stupid movies why don't you pass some extra money otherwise [TS]

  we'll throttle your bandwidth which is exactly the opposite of the situation that I was suggesting for Amazon [TS]

  or at the App Store in general which is hey looks like you're selling twenty billion dollars worth of comic books. [TS]

  But would you guys like a volume discount. [TS]

  We'll take less of a percentage if you if you sell more because we want people to drive more [TS]

  and more business through our store. [TS]

  I don't think the direction you're turning it makes much of a difference the bottom line is I think Apple should have [TS]

  the right to set whatever terms it wants for the people who sell through that store [TS]

  and I don't think there's anything magical about it being thirty percent for everybody [TS]

  and as many people pointed out it's not thirty percent parody if you saw a commercial commercial physical product [TS]

  through the app store you don't have to pay Apple anything. [TS]

  Why because Apple makes the rules of their app store that it's already not. [TS]

  Uniform and all I was suggesting was continue to make it not uniform come up with a different rate take larger [TS]

  or smaller percentage based on volume based on whatever the heck you want to do. [TS]

  Unlike the net neutrality thing if Apple give them is on a break [TS]

  and bad things start to happen they can change their mind and couple kind of any time change the terms [TS]

  and they control their own apps third is a private thing that happens over the Internet [TS]

  but it is definitely a private thing [TS]

  and the only point where I can have the apple comics knowledge thing which they had chanced upon [TS]

  and assurances for the most part the only feedback we got were the net neutrality ones [TS]

  and people telling me that the App Store has to stay the way it is otherwise bad things will happen. [TS]

  Oh and the third one is that Apple shouldn't budge because Amazon's in the wrong [TS]

  and why should Apple change anything it's Apple's right to do whatever it wants. [TS]

  Nobody wrote me [TS]

  and to say that it was better for users this way they had not being able to buy comic books through the comic jab is [TS]

  better for use and nobody argued that which makes me think that is a pretty slam dunk evern agrees that's worse. [TS]

  So all the people arguing opposite are basically saying it's OK for things to be slightly worse than Apple's platform [TS]

  because [TS]

  and then the greater good like because they have to hold lying as if they give in now though to be giving in forever [TS]

  and they'll lose control the App Store and so on [TS]

  and so forth I think that slippery slope angle would be more convincing if this is the first time this happened [TS]

  and if this hadn't been the case on the App Store for years and Amazon had shown it is not going to budge [TS]

  and I think the other point about the situation is that the way I think about it is is this a bigger problem for Apple [TS]

  or Amazon if you know Amazon says OK we're going to make you buy everything through a website and apples [TS]

  and get those out there who is that a bigger problem for us that have a bigger problem for Apple now that they're not [TS]

  getting a thirty percent of anything because Apple selling or into the Web site or is it a bigger problem Amazon [TS]

  and that people won't buy as many comics do they have to go to the stupid web site I think [TS]

  and as I tried to argue last time it is a bigger problem for Apple because it makes Apple's product from worse and [TS]

  and Amazon always has the excuse of well yeah from a little worse but hey if you don't like. [TS]

  By candle like they have their own platforms to promote in exchange right [TS]

  and so yes Amazon is going to lose sales because people can't buy things easily [TS]

  but their answer is so much more compelling than Apple's their answer is you should be buying the stupid i Pad anyway. [TS]

  Buy Kindle Fire we have an amazing looking screen it's a great place to retire [TS]

  and if you can buy them right on a device by the way it's also cheaper than an i Pad Apple's answer is yes worse [TS]

  but trust us we really need to hold the line on this because if we give in to Amazon the world will come to an end [TS]

  and I did get two different kinds of people were like oh this happened [TS]

  and they kept using their mom the examples I'm just the messenger don't shoot me again it could be because their [TS]

  mothers are much more technologically advanced in their fathers [TS]

  and if I was not touch i Pads But anyway they were saying this happened on my moms i Pad [TS]

  and i just put a shortcut to the you know to go to the Web site on her i Pad and she just goes that it's no problem [TS]

  but not a big deal. [TS]

  Another person said this happened about when the Kindle Store stopped having and in turn the web for the Web site. [TS]

  This happened on you know back in two thousand and eleven for the Kindle Store. [TS]

  And from that point on my mom always calls me when she wants to buy a book and I buy it for her [TS]

  and then other people saying this happened [TS]

  and then someone you know stopped even buying things because they said oh this is stupid it's broken now I'm not going [TS]

  to do this anymore so I go eleventh on all sides whether this is a problem or not [TS]

  but I think the one person who said that that is not a big deal just go to the web link. [TS]

  But anyway I think this hurts Apple more than it hurts Amazon [TS]

  and I think after several years it's clear that Apple is not going to win this by holding strong [TS]

  and I just don't see the point anymore in holding the line [TS]

  and making things worse for users with the expectation that with the argument that if you do anything else just the App [TS]

  Store will come crumbling down if they do this [TS]

  and it turns out that they still have total control Apple changed the rules at any time I think it's worth an [TS]

  experiment especially to be a secret experiment where they have secret deals with Amazon and they call it off [TS]

  and they have India isn't known to talk about it or ever like apples in the driver's seat here. [TS]

  I just think it's time for customers. I'm suffering. [TS]

  Well hold on though there was one of the point that that a few people pointed out that you know one of the reasons why [TS]

  Amazon might not want to do apples in a purchase system has nothing to do with thirty percent cut [TS]

  and everything to do with Amazon wanting to own that. [TS]

  That buying experience and I lose that a little bit [TS]

  but I'm going to number of people pointing out specifics of why that's important to them. [TS]

  So one of the biggest of course is they want your credit card information to be entered into Amazon. [TS]

  They want to you know they want to have the most credit card on file of anybody [TS]

  and they want to they want your default behavior to be if you're going to buy something buy it from Amazon with one [TS]

  click done done done. [TS]

  And so for you to use an Apple system that's like that's one more customer than Amazon might not have using them. [TS]

  Also Amazon extensively when possible [TS]

  and this is the does it become less possible with big name ebooks because of the agency deal but [TS]

  when possible Amazon users have a heavy price controls and price tweaking [TS]

  and that's why if you go visit if you visit you know Amazon product pages for almost anything it's kind of unusual to [TS]

  see the same price twice and the prices seem kind of random [TS]

  and special individual goes where they can they can fudge numbers [TS]

  and you know they reserve the right on their app store to change the price of apps at will and stuff like that. [TS]

  There's all sorts of ways Amazon uses price control as a sales or data tactic [TS]

  and they can't really do that at the kind of granularity and volume they would want to do it at [TS]

  and Apple system at all. [TS]

  So [TS]

  and again so it's all I think with Amazon it's much more about owning that transaction getting user behavior getting everyone [TS]

  using Amazon and paying their Amazon I don't think even if Apple system was free I don't think Amazon would use. [TS]

  Now it is Apple's fault for disallowing them from using their own that you know that's certainly something Apple could [TS]

  change if they wanted to. But again I think that opens up a lot. [TS]

  Your can of worms and I think that would be a bad precedent to set. [TS]

  Yeah I don't think I did I still don't think allowing alternate payment systems as reason I think anyone suggests that [TS]

  a lot of people sent in email about this saying you know they all they should never allow altered Yeah they probably [TS]

  should not alter payment systems like you can see how that could be chaos and terrible and everything [TS]

  and if it's the case that all Amazon wants credit card numbers because Apple has way more credit cards Amazon does as a [TS]

  home and to run a stat recently but it wasn't even close and you would think Amazon would have more credit cards [TS]

  but apparently not. But if that's if that's the line in the sand and Amazon is making. [TS]

  I still think this is Apple's problem [TS]

  and I think it's even worse problem because it's like a what can we do in fact if we made it free they still wouldn't [TS]

  buy like Amazon has things that Apple doesn't Amazon has a popular store where people buy tons of stuff Apple has a [TS]

  kind of semi popular store people buy some things and the book sells comics too [TS]

  but I'm saying it's a terrible experience [TS]

  and you know like it's a problem you know it's a similar situation always with Google Google has something that Apple [TS]

  needs and Apple decided we're going to make our own which is a good strategic move because you know [TS]

  when to rely on your your deadly enemy to be providing you with a sense of optionality but it's really hard [TS]

  and Google really good at what it does an Apple tried to do some of the same stuff itself [TS]

  and didn't do that good a job and it's getting better. [TS]

  What are they going to do now like it as a platform owner Apple has to figure this stuff out. [TS]

  They can have a platform and say do everything our way but we're not to use anything regal him [TS]

  or not he's learning from Amazon [TS]

  and just everything's going to be a little bit worse like their job as a platform is to encourage a rich ecosystem of [TS]

  people who provide awesome apps [TS]

  and if everyone knows if you're going to buy stuff go to Amazon's platform if you're going to do anything with cloud [TS]

  stuff go to Google's form but I guess anything else you know like this is Apple's problem long term [TS]

  and I don't know what the solution is I'm just arguing for at this point being stubborn [TS]

  and holding on for another three years as they've done with you know allowing you to purchase stuff inside applications [TS]

  is not is going to hurt Apple more than it hurts Amazon or more than [TS]

  or it's Google unless you know those solutions are going to tell tons of stuff. [TS]

  Since his violence had ninety percent market share then suddenly this is back and they have it on Google's problem. [TS]

  But they don't so for now it's Apple's problem. [TS]

  Well they do have that kind of level of a lot of things like you know web browsing with purchase intent [TS]

  and stuff like that like Apple the I was platform does represent itself way larger the installed base in things like [TS]

  you know what percentage of people doing actual online purchasing of goods are using Apple stuff. [TS]

  You know what percentage of people buying books online buying movies online you know that kind of stuff. [TS]

  I bet Apple's platforms actually are big enough in those that Amazon for instance has to have [TS]

  and I was there for their business to be healthy in that department. [TS]

  Well I don't I don't know they were broken down by how many purchases were through apps for us is how many were through [TS]

  mobile Safari some were going to Amazon dot com I'm just buying you know sweaters [TS]

  and stuff like I don't I don't know if it's broken down by Apple Amazon's perfectly happy to let you use your i Pad as [TS]

  a web browser and buy stuff from Amazon. [TS]

  So can we go back a second to the is this [TS]

  or is this not net neutrality debate because I feel like you kind of fluff that off well it's not the Internet that's [TS]

  that's not the same. [TS]

  So no it's in I don't know if it's quite so simple and the way I look at it [TS]

  and it didn't occur to me until people wrote in about it [TS]

  but if you look at the situation at my house today if I want to watch some content let's use Netflix as an example for [TS]

  Verizon is standing between me and that content. [TS]

  So somehow or another I need for rising to kind of orchestrate the exchange between Netflix and me in a similar vein. [TS]

  If I have an i Phone and i want some content be it a comic or be it an app or whatever the case may be. [TS]

  Apple is standing between me and the content I want [TS]

  and I think what people are bothered by is at this point couldn't you make a reasonable argument. [TS]

  At the same kind of common carrier stuff that applies to a risin Isn't that almost Are we almost at the point that that [TS]

  applies to apple to apples not viruses not between you and the content you want for us in this venue in the Internet. [TS]

  Sure and that's that's an important distinction because [TS]

  when you're buying something through Apple you know you're buying something from Apple store right. [TS]

  Someone uploaded to Apple Apple has it. [TS]

  Verizon has nothing fries [TS]

  and doesn't like you are choosing to go through a Verizon gate to get to the Internet at which point you can choose [TS]

  wherever you want to go. [TS]

  I mean you're going through the intra crowd are you going through the Internet to get to the app store if you want to [TS]

  think of it that way Verizon is the gate between you [TS]

  and buying they Why shouldn't rising get forty percent of every purchase to the App Store they are your gate into the [TS]

  Internet and the Internet is a different thing it's how we are all connected to each other. [TS]

  Verisign does not own anything on the Internet Verizon does not run the Internet [TS]

  and doesn't run Netflix Arisan doesn't accept uploaded videos from for movie theaters the Netflix horizon doesn't [TS]

  manage this is corruptions of people to Netflix. Brother nothing to do with Netflix. [TS]

  They are a gateway to the Internet. [TS]

  They like to put themselves in between [TS]

  and say oh well the entire Internet is our oyster would no matter what you want to do there we can extort money from [TS]

  whatever the most popular things are because otherwise we'll cut off their access [TS]

  and we can do that because in the US anyway in many markets we have monopolies [TS]

  and what are they going to do go to a different competitor for us [TS]

  and has nothing Apple owns the app store except uploads they have a developer program they made the hardware that made [TS]

  the software they allow people to upload things they accept your money they do it like that is Apple. [TS]

  We're going through the Internet to get the apple is not the same thing as the Internet at all the internet is a [TS]

  special unique snowflake I'm going to say that different than everything else the Internet is not the App Store for [TS]

  crowd the gaps on the Internet without the Internet nothing works so simply because Apple made the App Store it we have [TS]

  to play by their rules even if they're completely unfair and owns it and runs it and makes all decisions that. [TS]

  Is it a private entity it's basically private versus public and I think the Internet works best [TS]

  and has historically been treated as a public thing that we all share together because it doesn't work if we if we cut [TS]

  ourselves off from it and try to divvy it up into little pieces [TS]

  and disconnect if you disconnect a sub network from the Internet that's like it's not that you're not on you know on [TS]

  the internet anymore it's pointless to anybody to north the says well we're not going to communicate with anybody is [TS]

  not in the northeast like that's pointless. The whole point is we're all connected to each other through it. [TS]

  That's what makes the Internet the Internet it is a unique thing it should be treated differently than everything else [TS]

  that's totally different and they live on the Internet [TS]

  and I mean it is complicated by the fact of the App Store then that would be simpler if it was just like you know [TS]

  something something that was involved in. [TS]

  But everything's all good [TS]

  and now that they were net neutrality is like if you allow regional I a species to be gatekeepers [TS]

  and extort money for things they're already being paid for on both ends they're going to choose the winners and losers. [TS]

  Apple chooses winners [TS]

  and losers in its own app store all the time they choose who to feature they choose who to be rejected they choose [TS]

  every they choose to make the rules they change the rules once your application is in the App Store. [TS]

  Of course they pick the winners and losers in the App Store it's their thing [TS]

  but they don't choose whether you can get to the App Store for I would choose. [TS]

  Well if Apple doesn't pay us we're not going to let people go to the app store over there. [TS]

  I was devices wirelessly right. It's almost as if you're creating your own Internet. [TS]

  Speaking of which our sponsor this is a glue it makes an Internet you'll actually like nothing even different Read this [TS]

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  It's how to design their software to the quarterly report takes the form of the info graphic with fun stats about how [TS]

  customers use their internet every day. One blog post every minute. [TS]

  Hundred forty four meetings every hour nine hundred ninety five Wiki article is added every day [TS]

  and it's blended with quirky facts about the people that work an igloo for example they've consumed six thousand one [TS]

  hundred forty four cups of coffee in the past three months. [TS]

  The farts develop with a cool parallax experience and some cool animations. So check it out. What. [TS]

  Check out what's been happening this year. [TS]

  Bigloo Software dot com slash earnings once again check out it was software the makers of the Internet you'll actually [TS]

  like at Bigloo Software dot com slash earnings. [TS]

  Thanks a lot for sponsoring our show once again they're pretty cool people there. [TS]

  All right the last bit of follow up is on Affleck's quick little thing we talked about the Facebook project appliques [TS]

  last week [TS]

  and we got a bunch of feedback from people who are much more familiar with it than we are saying that the really the [TS]

  point of Apple inks is mostly not about going from browsers to apps which is what we were mostly talking about. [TS]

  It's mostly to more intelligently link from apps to other apps without bouncing through the browser. [TS]

  So for instance if you know like in the Twitter app if they were with integrated appling send you into an Instagram [TS]

  link Well assuming Twitter [TS]

  and Facebook we're talking about Twitter would actually explicitly disable the Instagram link from working. [TS]

  But anyway suppose it was some other service Twitter's friendly with like OK suppose is the tumblr app [TS]

  and Teller Apostolate Instagram but I don't think they hate each other yet so the tumblr app [TS]

  and you know link direct that Instagram instead of you know bounce of the web browser so it's still to fetch the page [TS]

  but you know they have a library that handles that for you. [TS]

  It's a kind of a fee it's still you don't have to fetch the page. [TS]

  Well they have to fetch the extreme out now you know because like that's part of the A.P.I. [TS]

  That's one of the things that people are pointing out to us is that this case you brought that up to the bone I was [TS]

  looking at the docs like that the stuff is still in the page but that's like the protocol. [TS]

  Like how do you provide this information the thing but Facebook or somebody like provides a library that like this [TS]

  and you can crawl the pages self extracting immigration but we also provide an A.P.I. [TS]

  That basically you just give us a U.R.L. [TS]

  and We give you the equivalent like Apple Inc and oh that's right the discovery service that's right. [TS]

  Right so like so well crawl them and like so then you don't have to go out to a page [TS]

  and get it if you're lucky it'll be in like a cash or a local thing or you know boils down to the same thing [TS]

  but basically like they want to be able to given you know given a U.R.L. [TS]

  That I would go to want to web page instead of going to that web page. [TS]

  Have something else that has already been to that web page. [TS]

  Extract the information needed to build the Apple Inc And that takes me deeply into another application [TS]

  and hopefully you don't think doesn't that actually go to their web page put up [TS]

  and do that thing hopefully something is done it before [TS]

  but that's the equivalency that's the I think the piece that I was missing the thing is basically like given to you [TS]

  or all that works in a web browser. [TS]

  They would they would work just fine like it shows you that the thing you're going to buy or whatever. [TS]

  Tell me what is the equivalent location inside an application [TS]

  and form that into an Apple Inc that I can use to get to the equivalent page inside another as well as a fantastic way [TS]

  for Facebook to capture tons of click data on all the or else people clicking in apps. [TS]

  Now see now I know what it launches there we go. That's the reason right there. [TS]

  It's just a discovery service is just in the intimate patient detail don't worry about it. [TS]

  Well you're right they want to bypass the web they be the only the only way you could get to places like you know [TS]

  protocol helpers or going to your web page [TS]

  or redirecting you to the like whatever protocol handler that Iowa says as long as your application is like no no no [TS]

  we'll we'll get that you know given your oh we will tell you what the equivalent application page is based on all this [TS]

  metadata that is in the euro [TS]

  and that's where the stuff is on a web page it makes more sense to me now that like you know if you don't support [TS]

  uplinks you just go to the page and the page will show you details for that book. [TS]

  But if that pay to that link of her mission [TS]

  and you tap on an Apple Apple Inc We won't show you that detail page for the book instead will take you directly to the [TS]

  bookselling application that you know the page that shows it. [TS]

  Inside the app instead of going to a web browser where [TS]

  and for every single link you tap in any application that supports this it's going to first check with the Facebook [TS]

  discovery service. [TS]

  And yeah anyone else can run a discovery service but this is going to be the default one that's already built in free. [TS]

  So of course everyone's going to use that [TS]

  and that way every single link you ever tap in an app that supports this will first tell Facebook that you're clicking [TS]

  on it. [TS]

  That's fantastic but it's there I mean it will may only tell Facebook [TS]

  but you know Facebook wants to have this constellation of applications surrounding their data [TS]

  and so they want to use it for their purposes like OK well they don't have the Facebook whatever happens stalled take [TS]

  them to Facebook dot com slash whatever [TS]

  but if they do have the Facebook whatever out of style Don't bother sending the Facebook comes to turn into the app [TS]

  because they think their big thing now is like you know customized experiences [TS]

  and native applications instead of sending people to one big blue Web site we also have T. Shirts for sale. [TS]

  We have teachers for sale for a very short time remaining We only have right now there is as we record there is like [TS]

  four days remaining when we release is it'll be more like one or a day and a half or meaning. So please if you want a T. [TS]

  Shirt which we greatly appreciate because we'll make a few dollars on each one if you want to T. [TS]

  Shirt please get it quickly because we're almost out of time [TS]

  but thank you very much everyone who's bought them so far the numbers have have really surprised me what we've sold as [TS]

  we recorded just under a thousand which is amazing I think I was estimating like a few hundred maybe at best and [TS]

  and so I'm very happy. [TS]

  Thank you everyone for buying our shirts you know and that's very awesome of everyone who has and we appreciate it. [TS]

  So if you want one go to a D.P. That F.M. [TS]

  Slash shirt and we did announce this on last week's show [TS]

  and that was that was like your advance notice so if you're hearing this show [TS]

  and it's like Sunday you probably missed it already. [TS]

  Yes this is all this is only for the people who are going down the show when it comes out on Friday [TS]

  or I think Saturday you might have time so you did have an entire week to try to get the shirt. [TS]

  I know people are going to be sad because they missed it is give away to the last minute can't decide if they want [TS]

  or not so if you're listening to us now and you think you might. [TS]

  I'm sure it just pulse the pocket [TS]

  and go see if the sale store their price to move people some people are asking if they thought the source code in the [TS]

  back or come out our answer is we have no idea [TS]

  but we really hope it does I think you know you have no way to tell I mean I like I made it as big as possible [TS]

  and I intentionally made the lines very short so that I could scale the text up [TS]

  and have it fit in the back I also used the Monaco bold so everything is a should be a little sticker which should make [TS]

  it a little bit more likely to come out I think so. [TS]

  And we only used a few colors they can they can reuse the color but I haven't liked either it [TS]

  or anything weird like that so I thought using Menlo Eden is mellow. Oh sorry it is memory right. [TS]

  Yes I use memo so it so it doesn't look stupid. [TS]

  But yes so it's it should be relatively thick so it should turn out but we aren't screen printers [TS]

  and we aren't to spring and we because of the way T. [TS]

  Spring works we can't really get a sample first like we have to get put [TS]

  and put them for sale before any are printed including ours and we will get them [TS]

  when everyone else does so we think the code on the back will turn out [TS]

  but we really can't know for sure until it does so we can't really guarantee that [TS]

  but we'll find out if it doesn't think of it this way you'll have the T.-Shirt equivalent of the upside down airplane [TS]

  stamp. Yeah I mean like I and I have a few other shirts from T. Spring and their quality seems really good. [TS]

  There are real screen printing shop that it isn't doing like what Cafe Press does where it's where it's basically like [TS]

  a transfer. [TS]

  They're actually like it's a real screen printer [TS]

  and you know they were able to get quite a lot of detail on the run this writer had previously from them so I have high [TS]

  hopes but we'll see. All right so we got some news about apt. [TS]

  NET yesterday's error yesterday when we record this anyways [TS]

  and it sounds like they're sunsetting their brand without sunsetting their brand another winding down. My apologies. [TS]

  No no no sorry they're winding down just a developer incentive program. [TS]

  After that will continue operating on a forward basis. Nobody actually dedicated to it right. [TS]

  See this this is this is sad I mean I can't really say that no one saw this coming because we all saw this coming I [TS]

  think but I just don't I think they should have just killed it. And Alex I'm sure we're going to kill it. [TS]

  It's you know maybe they haven't killed yet because they want to wait out people who have paid so they don't try to [TS]

  deal with issuing refunds for like partially fulfilled subscriptions. That's a pretty good reason. [TS]

  But although they were to do that they should stop taking subscriptions now. [TS]

  So it may be that it was maybe it was in their plan but you know now what they basically said is so a few weeks ago [TS]

  and in mid April was [TS]

  when all of the initial subscriptions expired so if you if you were one of the backers at the very beginning which is [TS]

  where I think most of their user base came from most of their paying user base. [TS]

  If you're one of those original backers that they did come to kick starter style thing [TS]

  and they will they lower the price then you get extended [TS]

  and so anyway all those occasions were up a few weeks ago in early April. [TS]

  And so of that massive original wave of backers they basically said they didn't get enough renewals to be able to [TS]

  afford any other or any full time employees anymore. [TS]

  So there are now no more employees they will use contract work here [TS]

  and there occasionally as the budget permits which is a fancy way of saying if you subscribe some more [TS]

  and so it's it's basically like there's basically no one working on it anymore [TS]

  and they said it's it's financially healthy enough to keep going indefinitely. [TS]

  But you know that statement is probably based on the numbers describers that it has today. [TS]

  And now they've announced it it's kind of dying or dead. [TS]

  I suspect the numbers I will continue that can continue to go down. [TS]

  So I suspect that you know an actual shutdown is is like. It with and probably I don't know six months. [TS]

  So did you either of you guys really knew when the renewal went when the renewal happens. [TS]

  I did and now I regret it of course not in here. Same here. I didn't actually because I just never use it. [TS]

  I do use it I still use it every day and you know I'll be sad to see it go away [TS]

  but you know I mean to me I don't really actively use it I well I use it to announce that we're live [TS]

  and there's some more to the order of two hundred people that subscribe to that. [TS]

  And actually two hundred four and I use it when somebody mentions me but that's it. [TS]

  I never actively go tap dot net to just see what's cracking on the i time every go is if somebody is addressing me [TS]

  or I'm announcing our life I discovered when when my but my rule is coming up I decided you know what. [TS]

  I don't use anymore so I don't pay for again when they convert my paid account to a free account [TS]

  and to do that you have to use the stay under a certain following limit I think it's like forty people that you can [TS]

  follow it something like that. [TS]

  And and so I had to reduce my following list down to that number and so what I did was I want to follow it [TS]

  and I just opened up all those people's timelines on at that net [TS]

  and anyone who had not posted any time recently I assume had been in the service [TS]

  and therefore I could see if they don't follow them [TS]

  and it was really really easy to get the number down by that method because so many people. [TS]

  It was it was I was actually kind of surprised like how many people who I initially had followed were no longer using [TS]

  the service. Like so many people hadn't posted in months. Some of them hadn't posted in over a year. [TS]

  The service is about two years old some of them hadn't posted in over a year some of them had never posted [TS]

  and they were like I had followed them because of like a Twitter friend finder kind of thing [TS]

  and it was it was kind of sad [TS]

  and it was it was kind of sobering I really think you know there are people who use it every day no question. [TS]

  But I think it's a really small group. [TS]

  And I've heard from from developers of net dot apps that it just they were just never enough users to really make [TS]

  development for it feasible you know you need a critical mass of your friends to be there for it to be viable for you [TS]

  and I went over there [TS]

  and it became very clear very quickly that a critical mass of the people I you know interact with did not make it over [TS]

  there from Twitter [TS]

  and so it for a while like there was a tiny little bubble of people over there that I would talk with in that in that [TS]

  arena. [TS]

  But it was clear that most of my interactions were still going to take take place [TS]

  and quit on Twitter because that's where everybody was [TS]

  and after that became kind of like a back channel for Twitter because of the small subset of people who are you know [TS]

  driven daft not met by anger at Twitter [TS]

  or by just you know desire nothing like that could be interesting back channel for commentary and stuff [TS]

  but it was never going to be like and enough people didn't move [TS]

  and with with things like this with you know with with platforms where you're seeing things other people write [TS]

  and other people seeing things that you write. [TS]

  Audience is king and if you know the people you want to follow aren't posting on at the net [TS]

  and the people you want to read what you're writing aren't on the net then you just you know it's not going to go there [TS]

  and you know I didn't read Briana's post yet [TS]

  but you just basically like I have an Instapaper of course that it's not a technology problem it's social problem [TS]

  and as unfortunate as that is like we thought they had some of the social aspects from the developer pressing side they [TS]

  had better than Twitter they figured out how can we make it. [TS]

  You know how do you make a win win situation for developers to use as a platform but the biggest [TS]

  when they didn't put it put in there which Marco pointed out is you've got to have a lot of users because there has to [TS]

  be a large potential customer base and if you can't get that it doesn't matter if you do all those other things right. [TS]

  Everything else flows from. Well yeah but who's there. [TS]

  How many users do you have I mean a clone of that I go eyeballs and big growth rates and you know it's like. [TS]

  But you don't have to make everything free for everybody and just make the entire world use it [TS]

  but you do have to meet some minimum and they just never met it. [TS]

  Then we can go you know twenty twenty hindsight and say what should they have done to get more users. [TS]

  Margo I think has talked about probably the biggest reception waiting way too long to do a free tier [TS]

  and that just put a stop around the entire service for like an entire year. [TS]

  Yeah I mean that was the big thing like you know it was noble of them to try a paid model you know so they could avoid [TS]

  the weird advertiser creepiness phenomenon that all these free services have to turn to to make money. [TS]

  You know that was an idea but the problem is and you know we all think knew it at the time. [TS]

  The problem is that for for a social product like that you need as many people as possible [TS]

  and by putting up the paywall right at the beginning [TS]

  and having no free tier having everything be paid only at the beginning for the whole for almost the whole first year [TS]

  that that was really really fatal. [TS]

  And furthermore they even after they they made a free tier in I believe last early last May or last April [TS]

  but for a while you had to have an invitation from somebody else [TS]

  and there were a limited number of imitation so you had to you had to be invited by a paid member now that that I think [TS]

  was fatal. Also even more fatal beating a dead after even more people because they when they did finally go free. [TS]

  There was a big asterisk. Well it's free but you can just go sign up. [TS]

  It's free but you have to be invited and there's very few invites a hen [TS]

  and they eventually remove the invitation requirement. [TS]

  But everyone had already been told that this was now free but we need an invitation so it's like [TS]

  and no one no one got the memo. [TS]

  When that requirement was lifted and so even people who were on the fence about it once they learned it was free [TS]

  and then were kind of turned away by that by the imitation requirement. They probably didn't. [TS]

  After to check always that requirement still there [TS]

  and it's really hard to strike that balance the biggest I can't you know the whole thing we're talking about if you [TS]

  make it free for everybody [TS]

  and nobody is ever motivated to do the pay thing you've just killed your service like that's the whole point they were [TS]

  trying to make a service that was sustained by the people uses you have to trust you have to strike that perfect [TS]

  balance and three that it gets people in the door [TS]

  but the you know sort of like Dropbox has found I assume the balance for themselves which is yeah you can use Dropbox [TS]

  for free until you reach a certain quota and enough people are going to reach that quota [TS]

  and pay for it that it pays for all the freeloaders right [TS]

  and that is really difficult to strike that balance making everybody pay on a service that is going to live [TS]

  or die by the number of people who use it is really difficult. [TS]

  Maybe they were fooled by the initial enthusiasm of an alternate services whatever [TS]

  but everyone who joined quickly found out. [TS]

  Well most people I know don't care about what they'll say but it is a doing to developers and their back over there [TS]

  and what are so I guess I'm going to go back there too. [TS]

  Yeah I like the invitation thing could have been you know throttling for a load or trying to build hype [TS]

  or a combination of them a lot of big services of the G. [TS]

  Mail was invite only in the beginning like that's not entirely crazy thing but it's all about timing and balance. [TS]

  Did you do it for too long. [TS]

  Is the bouncing correct all those people who found they can go to free all like those dedicated people like I use up [TS]

  not that all the time but I can get by with a free tier. [TS]

  Well that's bad like that [TS]

  and the fact that you found it easy to get to the free beer like that is an incorrect bounce [TS]

  but that point was probably too late anyway. [TS]

  But I was thinking of the things they could do things they could have done a lot of people [TS]

  and I think Marco's you blogged about this like focus that they seem to try a lot of different things [TS]

  and a lot of people have said they were all over the place [TS]

  but no one knew what they were they didn't concert anyone thing that's what I messed up on the other side of that coin [TS]

  as well as they had tried to do one of those things the entire time we would've been saying you should try different [TS]

  things you should try to file hosting maybe you could have been an A.P.I. [TS]

  For application so I mean it all stems back to the same problem they did not find a way to get people into the service [TS]

  and every other problem I have is like you know. [TS]

  For all that of that may be but I don't know I mean at the same time like all these different things. [TS]

  That was that was all effort that would like that was expended. [TS]

  That was not trying to get people on the service it was trying to add value for Eagles already there to maybe in the [TS]

  future maybe it's more people to sign up. But like every one of their major A.P.I. [TS]

  Pushes every one of their major new products or [TS]

  or as much of the service isn't the kind of thing like oh this will be great once more people are here [TS]

  but that never came. [TS]

  Well they were trying to get new customers like they say OK we can get people becoming is like Twitter. [TS]

  Maybe we can get developers to use it as their back end kind of like some period of [TS]

  or something like it was it was trying for another user base. [TS]

  OK we can get enough regular people about it can we get enough developers of applications are we going to get enough of [TS]

  them How about people who just want to host their files [TS]

  and the thing that might have undone them is instead of doing the pivot thing where you could think this is where we're [TS]

  going to go now. They never got rid of the old things. [TS]

  They just added to them so it became a big long list of things that it did and that becomes difficult to support. [TS]

  You know it's not as if they said OK what we were a Twitter like service [TS]

  but now we're seeing here are two files in service of an hour and A.B.I. [TS]

  Connecting thing like they did all those things at once [TS]

  and to their credit engineering wise they seem to do a good job [TS]

  and all the things like Man is very happy using them as an A.P.I. and A back end. [TS]

  But again you got to you have to be able to show that you are sustainable or show that you get so many customers [TS]

  and some V.C. [TS]

  Is going to pour money down your throat forever until someone buys you out [TS]

  and you nearing is one of the one least important things [TS]

  when it comes to growing a social product like a look at My Space My Space You know it's easy to laugh at them now [TS]

  but before Facebook was BIG My Space basically ruled the internet for a few years [TS]

  and they had the worst technology in the universe powering that thing they still do [TS]

  and it's like it is comical just how much in shambles that company always was my space has always been comically [TS]

  dysfunctional before and after acquisition and you know their site was like held together by tape. [TS]

  In glue and and yet it was the biggest social site on the web for a long time and still is no slouch. [TS]

  And you know that you know the technology matters very very little [TS]

  but matters for anything that is social is just the social network effect it's it's getting the people who you want to [TS]

  talk to and reach on there [TS]

  and you know there was there was never any hope for something that was paywall only for every single user to ever get [TS]

  that big. You know if they were going to get big they should have had a free tier at the very beginning. [TS]

  But that's hard like it like the reason they did imitations was probably not to build hype it was probably because they [TS]

  were afraid of things like spam and abuse from bulk registrations which is a major problem it's hard to deal with. [TS]

  But like that's that's the game like that's that's akin to you're signing up for if you want to have any kind of [TS]

  socialization or have anything that requires you know strong network effect here [TS]

  or the need to overcome the strong network effect. [TS]

  So you know really what the I think what they should have done instead was had no social product at all [TS]

  and focus purely on the developer A.P.I. [TS]

  Stuff because then they have they have a lot fewer direct competitors [TS]

  but even then the model of having the users pay instead of the developers is weird [TS]

  and I think that I don't think that ever really had a chance that I thought that's credit I am the success they had [TS]

  surprised me like [TS]

  when they got real active helpers to make real app tonight clients instead of just like some random person doing it as [TS]

  a lark you know like a bot thing like where. [TS]

  I mean granted movies are used a lot of the work they had done for it we bought and everything [TS]

  but you know they got actual attention from real developers [TS]

  and they got some pretty darn high quality applications even someone's first application like those people hone their [TS]

  after clients [TS]

  and shape them up into you know applications that I would put up against any third party Twitter client you know [TS]

  and some of them you know some of them weren't just like Tweet bipartisan about some of them a whole brand new outlook. [TS]

  Patients out of whole cloth [TS]

  and they were pretty darn good Granted there was prior art in terms of people it seem a Twitter applications were like [TS]

  but I just think they managed to make something that was big enough to do that [TS]

  and that was part of their goal like we're going to make an awesome platform for developers. [TS]

  They did every part of that except the part where there's tons of customers [TS]

  and they tried to make up for that by giving them a share of the money they were getting like. [TS]

  It worked much better than I thought it would for longer than I thought it would [TS]

  and so I give them credit for even achieving that level of access to it if you think about that you know who else has [TS]

  tried that and been even remotely successful it is especially on something like a social network [TS]

  and it's a tough sell so they they have nothing to be ashamed of in terms of that they had the guts to do this. [TS]

  They made it happen and they got a reasonable level success. [TS]

  They just didn't get over the hump and the just now they're sliding back down the hill. [TS]

  Yeah agreed I mean you know there and you know I've talked to don't know if these are good people [TS]

  and I I I I'm trying to you know be constructive here they I I don't think they're idiots they're I know they're not [TS]

  idiots and I don't think they are I think they just they were trying something really really hard [TS]

  and it did not work and you and I agree I'm it lasted longer [TS]

  and got further than I thought it would i didn't even think it would get back to like I didn't think it would even make [TS]

  their goal because it seemed pretty high at the time and they did and they blew right past it I mean and [TS]

  and they let to last two years I mean I really would have guessed that either but I don't know [TS]

  and I think now the way they're kind of you know winding it down. [TS]

  I think they should just kill it because now it has nobody working on it [TS]

  and then the user numbers are going to go down because now it's like a thing [TS]

  and like it's almost like you know talk about it briefly I'm back to work this week. [TS]

  Listen to that but you know it's a little weird it's like you're hanging out at a bar with your friends [TS]

  and there are people filtering out for a while and now the owners just turn the lights on and left. [TS]

  No with the lights on in his empty room like how long are you really going to stay there. [TS]

  Somebody tweeted today that like if you don't like using something that doesn't have a full time people working on it [TS]

  and you should trash half the application I with application to your phone make a difference because like obviously a [TS]

  service is different than a bunch of bits on you but you know this is the problem. [TS]

  All over like this is why people are wary about signing up for things or using applications [TS]

  and that's why big you know big successful companies have some kind of advantage because you know it's like a fly by [TS]

  night thing [TS]

  and like well you know depending on the company like Apple Microsoft Google you figure if this thing goes away it will [TS]

  be because the company went out of business. [TS]

  It will because you know it could be because they change their mind or whatever [TS]

  but you're not worried about the viability of the company because they have billions of dollars [TS]

  and if you're going to give them at least a couple years before they go down the tubes right where things like this [TS]

  it's all just you know how much do you believe in these scrappy group of people and how you know [TS]

  and they made two years which is like a longer probably than some Google project so good on them. [TS]

  So something Marco said a few minutes ago actually really made me think for a moment. [TS]

  You had said something along the lines of Well if they screwed up having people there having the users pay for for [TS]

  after net rather than having the developers pay [TS]

  and it occurred to me that you could make a really legitimate argument that after net was further up the stack then a [TS]

  lot of the things we're working with so if you look at the you know the lowest level we've got a physical machine that [TS]

  say Marco owns for Instapaper or overcast or what have you that is colocated it's somebody's status center [TS]

  and then you get a little less close to the metal [TS]

  and you have a virtual machine that's still it's on these data center and so on and so forth so it's a shared resource. [TS]

  Then you move up the stack a little more you have something like Heroku or Azure perhaps in the middle maybe [TS]

  but something like that where you have sort of a platform as a service thing well that's. [TS]

  What apps out there could've been I feel like it would be even further up the stack from like a Heroku where you have [TS]

  this entire platform waiting for you [TS]

  and it seems in retrospect it seems obvious to me now after hearing Marco say that the Dow would have been really [TS]

  powerful for developers [TS]

  and if the pricing wasn't god awful that would be a really really great way for a developer to get say the user [TS]

  accounts set up easily [TS]

  or you know data storage like you had mentioned there are so many things that happen that eventually end up doing [TS]

  or ends up doing I don't know I don't know if I should use past tense or not [TS]

  but anyway there's so much that they do that as someone who has no interest in running his own servers like myself that [TS]

  is something that's very powerful I think man touched on this [TS]

  and I keep getting reminded of I think as Brent Simmons had posted about hey why don't we have an A.P.I. [TS]

  Kind of like this I think his point was a little bit different but it's a similar idea [TS]

  and it really could be a wonderful thing if you don't want to go through the hassle [TS]

  and effort of completely rolling your own stuff. Yeah totally I mean that's and I think part of the problem with that. [TS]

  You know after the name and domain started out as something else and then Dalton [TS]

  and company kind of merged in with this idea you know [TS]

  when Twitter started being a dick they sort of merging them with this and kind of kind of took over [TS]

  and you know became something else because it was a new cool thing that there was a need for. [TS]

  And then as they ran after net they kept doing more [TS]

  and more of those kind of things like hey let's take this this thing [TS]

  and add this other thing to it will end of this other kind of prizes other kind of service [TS]

  and keep with ads on ads on and I think that lack of focus really hurt them a lot [TS]

  but I think if they if they would have skipped that first there that second step [TS]

  but they would have skipped the step of let's make this into a Twitter alternative you know [TS]

  or let's make this into a platform that could power a Twitter alternative. Please don't email me. You know if. [TS]

  I would have skipped that [TS]

  and gone directly from the old app developer services company into what you just described like like a high level [TS]

  developer back end services company where the developers would pay them to post their back ends on this infrastructure [TS]

  and users would never have to know about it just the same way users don't know don't know if your back end is on you [TS]

  know eight of us or parse or Microsoft Azure like they don't like. [TS]

  Users don't need to see that it's an implementation detail [TS]

  and you the application developer would do your own you know user management in the sense that like you would say I [TS]

  write this you know create a user [TS]

  and you know here's here's an email password you know give me a user account for this [TS]

  and then he with every call you make there right. Humidifiers for user ID X.Y.Z. Like that for my application. [TS]

  Like that's that's a level up [TS]

  and I think that's a probably better business to be in given all the services they were building on top of it like it [TS]

  seems like they would've been better off targeting only developers and making the developers pay [TS]

  and making all these great services they added to it just just developed services really boring though. [TS]

  There are services out there like I mentioned same period [TS]

  but is also well know that one before Game Center came out that all the game high scores [TS]

  and later boards about that called Yeah I know everyone I always had to say no to it. [TS]

  Yeah whatever about it but I went [TS]

  and you know as you are of course one of my all sorts of all sorts of services that are like this that are essentially [TS]

  offering alternatives to their alternatives to i Cloud [TS]

  or trust accorded of course although it has the i Cloud don't have the advantage of the i Cloud doesn't that your users [TS]

  are probably already logged in Open Feint was the game. [TS]

  Yeah but that's you know [TS]

  and some carriers like for for you know a sort of alternative the core data simpler kind of document data storage [TS]

  and apt and was even more general like. [TS]

  But the thing is I don't know any of those services are like burning up the charts in those companies are being wildly [TS]

  successful at the very least apt [TS]

  and that got to do something different which was this weird Twitter like thing they got to run the experiment of. [TS]

  How does two fifty six characters feel compared to one forty. My my answer to that is it feels pretty good. [TS]

  How I got I was what it was like that. [TS]

  What about Arab embedded in the answer that was it's really hard to clients support it [TS]

  but it's kind of a good idea in theory. You know the conversation threading Lots of all the experiments they ran. [TS]

  I mean if Twitter wasn't a bunch of bots they would use it as like hey these guys did all the research for us by trying [TS]

  to a bunch of crazy things and some work and some don't [TS]

  but cleared her to care about any of this stuff anymore unfortunately [TS]

  but if they did after that they did a good service that I think the the user goodwill to people who did enjoy a net [TS]

  and didn't join the community that was there [TS]

  and everything is probably going to have a more lasting impact on all the experiments there [TS]

  and more lasting impact than if they had just become another company in line with those other companies that I [TS]

  mentioned that I mean and I don't know how those companies are doing well maybe they're doing fabulously well [TS]

  and I just don't know about it but it seems like there's a whole bunch of them [TS]

  and every once in a while one of the big dogs comes [TS]

  and squish them like I don't know how one fan is doing now to game centers out maybe they're doing great I don't know [TS]

  but like Azure and stuff Microsoft has the invention of like you know after that would have to pay you know S three [TS]

  or a WS arise or something because you know there are a reseller of other services [TS]

  or software on top of them whereas Microsoft itself or Amazon itself [TS]

  or Apple itself doesn't have that extra margin in the middle to give to some other party in the chain to they're always [TS]

  going to be joined price and people own platforms or is going to be jump from integration [TS]

  and that's a tough business to be in so maybe they would still be in business if they had chose that model [TS]

  but I don't think it's a recipe for runaway success. [TS]

  I want to know [TS]

  but that I mean you know they would be a value added provider you know if they would have this this great system built [TS]

  on top of raw hardware like if you look at a service like her to the markup is insane I mean there's tons of profit to [TS]

  be made there by by adding convenience [TS]

  and by building in functionality that developers want to write themselves like that [TS]

  but they're never going to do like they don't they would have to pay Amazon if they use easy to to deploy. [TS]

  They would have to pay you know doesn't hurt to do that. [TS]

  But yeah I almost say Iraq was not part of the charity like I'm saying you're always going to some There's always going [TS]

  to be someone who can offer the same service for cheaper [TS]

  or the same service so that our platform integration so it's a tough business to be end like you're always kind of [TS]

  you're trying to find a little area that someone isn't covering like Open Feint probably thought it was a great Apple [TS]

  never been waiting with games were all set with and they would do well for a while and then games [TS]

  and it comes which sucks and I hate but it really took the wind out of their sails. [TS]

  Yeah I mean I suppose it is a harder business but hitting is harder than a paid Social Network. [TS]

  Well I mean you know it's a risk reward like they went for the riskier play initially that had the bigger potential [TS]

  upside [TS]

  and I guess that I think the things they did with that are more interesting experiments than if they had you know tried [TS]

  to sell services because they [TS]

  and maybe do it on something more interesting they have it seems like more of the same like a wee wee over something [TS]

  similar to these other companies but with different services [TS]

  or whatever whereas no one tried to make Well no one made it as successful a sort of Twitter like application of that I [TS]

  think was the other one tent [TS]

  and used to be called dentists you know you get a change into something else anyway like they had a federated system [TS]

  or maybe you know that's the thing about leaving the thing running. [TS]

  I think tend to still running because it's like not centralized and you know it's called cupcake now [TS]

  or whatever like you know don't never die because you'd never lived right [TS]

  and that after that if it just limps along for years like sleeping [TS]

  and who knows it could be like Irish people forget about it until you realize oh yeah are still there [TS]

  and it still works and so those sort of supposed to do. [TS]

  And especially if they are open source everything [TS]

  but the particle in technology could rise again in the distant future. Stranger things have happened. [TS]

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  So let's talk a little more thing tonight. [TS]

  And this actually broke before the last episode maybe even the data we recorded Lesseps I wouldn't have time to talk [TS]

  about it. And our friend Alan Pike wrote about how in a preview release of chrome there they've removed the U.R.L. [TS]

  Bar or the Omni bar or whatever you call it. [TS]

  And so we'll put the link in the show notes and basically where currently you have a full bore U.R.L. [TS]

  and You know highlight the top level domain and so on so that it highlights like Amazon dot com for example. [TS]

  Well now what it would be is it would show that you're on Amazon dot com and that's it. [TS]

  And then everything else is just a search google box and the internet seems to be really upset about this [TS]

  and I go on to a couple of conversations on Twitter with a couple of people about this [TS]

  and people who are really fired up and really angry about it and not Alan Allen seems to be kind of violent about it. [TS]

  What I recollect from reading this but anyways I I well I don't like it. [TS]

  Personally I'm not so sure this is such a terrible idea and I'm curious to hear what you think about it. [TS]

  I thought come up and I beta on the beta channel and immediately did I should let us first [TS]

  but now I've learned that by the time something shows in the beta channel there are a thousand web pages explaining how [TS]

  to turn off he just got that chrome restore address bar and like the number one hit is I'm telling you how to do it [TS]

  but at this point I just not go immediately to chrome. [TS]

  Cohen double slash flags and find the little setting that turns it off and do relaunch and restart it then [TS]

  but the reason I had to restart is no web developer I need to see the address bar like it's kind of important to see [TS]

  that and I'm assuming that they will always include the feature to turn on because some people are with DOS [TS]

  but most people are not and that's where we get into like is it a good idea to hide this to this degree [TS]

  and I'm not so sure I like not because I think oh you always have to show the address [TS]

  and people like I don't think people care about the others but I don't think people ever even look at it [TS]

  and I don't like the idea of people fishing with the things with a big long username with an ad using it looks like the [TS]

  host name of people in their apple dot com they're not [TS]

  and that's why Evy certificates are as a foul are good because they put the little green thing like there's a lot of [TS]

  important progress we should make in terms of the U.I. [TS]

  or Highlighting the parts that are important to people and making it not be free form text [TS]

  but by the same token the web works on your rails and you may not need to expose all the nitty gritty details [TS]

  but there needs to be something up there that now looks like a U.R.L. [TS]

  Necessarily but that shows all the parts of the U.R.L. Shows through in all their glory. Because your L. [TS]

  Design and you know and your Alice is a thing you can copy and paste out of an area [TS]

  and send around I think is still an important part of the web. Like I mean it could work without it. [TS]

  I can see a scenario where you have all the same features you don't need to swipe. [TS]

  Some texting copy and paste and you can just use a sharing link [TS]

  and say copy your relatives didn't journey a mailman when you paste into the email it could look different [TS]

  and you never need to see those parts [TS]

  but I think the paddlings resistance for this thing that we have like your L's are not going away [TS]

  and people are going to want to share them over text medium's so they have to exist in some form so I'm all for [TS]

  stopping all the things that are bad that people do with the orals and pinning down different parts of it [TS]

  but I still think you have to be able to deal with it as text. [TS]

  Even users who don't know or care what it is because even those people I want to send email about it at some point. [TS]

  Yeah but there's a problem I have with what you're saying is I don't see any need to look at the full U.R.L. [TS]

  Outside of what I'm trying to share it [TS]

  and you know people in the chat are pointing out this is the behavior that Chrome is having it will have theoretically [TS]

  is exactly how Safari works I was seven today. [TS]

  So if you look at a Web site all you see at the top is the is the whole same time you know in so caseless dot com for [TS]

  example and that's it and it's something you tap in your elbow [TS]

  or if you go to share that you actually see the rest of the U.R.L. [TS]

  In what I'm saying is I don't think there even needs to necessarily be a cap in the your L.. [TS]

  Bar to see the rest of your L. The only time I think an average person would need to see the U.R.L. [TS]

  Is just like you said John in like a share sheet or something to that effect. [TS]

  Web developers or developers in general absolutely agree with you that they were going to want to see it. [TS]

  But but your average user I just don't think it's relevant [TS]

  and additionally from anecdotal experience I can't think of anyone other than my dad who's pretty good who would ever. [TS]

  type in your L. Most people I know just go to google for what they want. [TS]

  Yeah like I'm not saying it has to remain plain text [TS]

  and that in the IO situation obviously for space constraints I think the i Pad I think I remember a guy with an i Pad [TS]

  app like but I mean on the phone it makes perfect sense like you know have room to show us stuff [TS]

  but I am not saying you need to show it is full bore text. [TS]

  There are portions of it like I would like you know like sometimes they have something that ends up being Rotex for the [TS]

  show for example like a comma separated list [TS]

  but the show does little capsule bubbles because the theory is that people can deal with those capsule bustle bubbles [TS]

  individually instead of you know a behind the scenes is just comma separated text you talk about like email. [TS]

  Yeah like in the same way that they do with the VS sell certificates where there they show the big green boxes as Apple [TS]

  dot com so you can be sure it's from Apple dot com like by all means and turn the address into a series of bits of U.I. [TS]

  but I think you'd still want people to be able to like back up one level in the hierarchy like you can by command [TS]

  clicking the title bar in Safari I don't want people to be afraid I don't want to become sort of like the thing that [TS]

  you don't touch I don't want people to be afraid to go up there and like backspace [TS]

  or you know that it's not it's not for the average person [TS]

  but like for regular people like there's no reason to shut out more people people who are currently comfortable messing [TS]

  with the address bar who are just not borderline like me down like this will scare them away [TS]

  and I think that reason reducing the pool of people who care about you or else [TS]

  and you know that way lies the madness of just you [TS]

  or elles as generated by terrible web content generators in the early ninety's like Front Page [TS]

  or else of the original original What is it the original city desk Urals member those narco zeroes like you were all [TS]

  designed as part of the web and yes very few users ever touch it [TS]

  but I don't think it's worth long like locking it down more like they're already ignoring it locking it down more [TS]

  doesn't help them a cycle previously they were screwing things up no they weren't they don't even know the thing is up [TS]

  there like those people can hide that if they want right. [TS]

  But if you're going to have it's visible at all I would like you to get rid of the bad things that are about the [TS]

  current You shouldn't you shouldn't be able to fish people with it it should be you know it should be parsed out [TS]

  or made into some kind of U.I. [TS]

  but I would like to strike a balance that still allows it to be sort of piecemeal editable [TS]

  and selectable manipulable other people who do care about the art. Right people don't care. [TS]

  The Arabs just hide it completely. I don't even include a token for it or anything just like that. [TS]

  Make it you know like it like it is and I want to make a mess. [TS]

  Make that the fault of the you want to it's just that I think there's no reason to. [TS]

  There's no reason to scare away the people who are on the borderline now who just tweak it a little bit you know [TS]

  because I think I think that is that is a reasonable interface like we don't want people to use a command line [TS]

  or text or whatever [TS]

  but I think our history with the GO has shown that while the glue is vastly superior for almost all things a couple of [TS]

  things are actually a sort of text just think of all the email clients let you start typing in a two address [TS]

  and then we like autocomplete [TS]

  and turn into a little token that is a text interface with augmentation rather than saying oh every time you want to [TS]

  send to somebody you have to open up the widget and scroll through and find the person or something like that. [TS]

  These hybrid interfaces that allow you to type free form text [TS]

  and also give you you know affordance is to quickly turn that into is sort of an immutable capsule so you're not afraid [TS]

  you're going to screw it up or whatever. [TS]

  That type of design for the address bar seems appropriate in the same way that the text fields for you to see see the [TS]

  subject in a mail client Don't go away. [TS]

  We just make really good versions of those [TS]

  and I think that's what the address bar should be is a really good version of a place where people seem manipulate [TS]

  techs who care about and if you know care about it. Yeah just hide it. [TS]

  Yeah I mean it's it's a hard problem because we you know we as geeks recognize the significance of your L's [TS]

  and the power of your L's But you know in reality in real world use they are a significant usability problem [TS]

  and they're very confusing to people and people you know what. [TS]

  What chrome did in this in this beta [TS]

  and I've heard from various you know various people on Twitter said like this is this is probably not going to stick [TS]

  around. But it was it was an experiment but we'll see. [TS]

  I better get there eventually because it does benefit Google's tremendously but I think. [TS]

  It's it's it's hard for us to accept but this is how people use the Internet [TS]

  and not just like super novices like almost everyone. [TS]

  And there's lots of problems if you or els like security and you know the phishing attempts and stuff like that [TS]

  but the fact is showing little lock icon for S.S.L. [TS]

  Pages showing the big green bar for Evie A sells for because of the company name in it telling people to look for you [TS]

  know make sure you're on peep out dot com before you type in your Pay Pal password. The fact is it doesn't work. [TS]

  Most people don't check for those things they're you know in practice. [TS]

  But these efforts really are not worth a whole lot you know we think they're effective to us they make sense as nerds [TS]

  but the vast majority of people don't even look at the stuff they don't pay attention to your own security they don't [TS]

  they can't tell if there aren't people arrive it looks like Pay Pal It is Pay Pal to them stuff like that like it's [TS]

  really hard it's really hard to meaningfully improve your L. [TS]

  Security you know and it's all it's all down to just actual human nature and human behavior [TS]

  and there's not a lot we can do about that. [TS]

  You want to be able to tell them like it people won't do the right thing [TS]

  but in the case where someone is asking I want to do the right thing tell me what the right thing is if you can easily [TS]

  describe it to them that's a problem. [TS]

  So I think at the very least of the bar should be if someone is on the phone with you [TS]

  and saying I can't tell if I'm on Pay Pal dot com if you know a browser using you should be able to tell them something [TS]

  quickly instead of telling them. [TS]

  Grohl really far right in the address bar [TS]

  and make sure there's no ad sign because that's a just a gigantic username that begins a pain pill dot com [TS]

  or something you know I mean like if you could tell them look at the big green thing to say Pay Pal dot com And in the [TS]

  chrome U.I. Like that's not nothing right. [TS]

  I mean getting back to how this is good for Google though I think that's one of the dangers of this is that yeah people [TS]

  use the internet that way but for example you see a billboard with your hours something [TS]

  and imagine with Google you know being evil in the future or saying even. If you type in H.T.T.P. [TS]

  Gone slash last triple the apple dot com We will do something different [TS]

  or that will never take you to Apple dot com Even if you saw that in the magazine ad even if you saw it on a billboard. [TS]

  Everything is a Google search and we control like suddenly we control a huge portion of the Internet. [TS]

  The say chrome becomes way more popular like you don't want to give the browser vendor so much control [TS]

  and there are situations where any human beings will have to deal with the orals in a non-electronic form [TS]

  and I don't want to scan a Q.R. Code right. So I like this paper. [TS]

  Paper is not going to go away [TS]

  and I would be I wouldn't like a situation where no matter what anyone types nothing it does a Google search because [TS]

  that gives too much control to Google or any any browser vendor. [TS]

  I think you need to to strike a balance maybe the current thing is the right balance. [TS]

  I haven't I didn't use it I merely turned it off like maybe maybe that is the bounce until recently [TS]

  when the chairman saying is it more like back to the way I'm described as just that it's something to watch for. [TS]

  You don't want to make everything into a search because then whoever you choose to search vendor is like your gateway [TS]

  to the entire Internet. [TS]

  But unfortunately that is how most people use the Internet anyway right [TS]

  and that's exactly what I'm driving at is that one. [TS]

  Why stand on tradition why not embrace the fact that it from from what I can tell anyone who wants to find out the [TS]

  website's address. [TS]

  They're not going to think to type in Facebook dot com They're going to just type in Facebook to Google [TS]

  or have a bookmark perhaps and that's how they're going to get there so let's just embrace the fact that the U.R.L. [TS]

  Doesn't really mean much to anyone but nerds. But on subsequent visits if you type a P.P. [TS]

  A complete battle dot com on your return doesn't do Google's [TS]

  or Travel dot com takes you right apple dot com I see my parents do this all the time like I mean maybe again if they [TS]

  change or complete not to behave that way but if you visit a site frequently [TS]

  and you start to type something people will figure out that like oh if I just hit return that well you won't go through [TS]

  google search it will because you go to about COM constantly or google dot com [TS]

  or you know whatever your local newspapers website is of ever it will be the first. A complete completion. [TS]

  Not the Google search for it right. [TS]

  If you're going to some random place you just type some a bunch of stuff then yeah you'll do a search [TS]

  but if it matches a dot com That's usually the top thing in the result [TS]

  and I think people fine like that better than going to Google and clicking the top result. [TS]

  I think you'll like it saying you know they want to go Denver Post at the end [TS]

  and it already has highlighted intervals dot com And every turn they would be annoyed if it went to Google. [TS]

  Even at the top it was then a rose dot com that is going to go to Denver Post right [TS]

  and I think bookmarks nobody uses them anymore. [TS]

  Bookmark bar thing that people ever figure out how to configure them [TS]

  or someone configure them for them they use that a lot. [TS]

  I think there is still a desire to go immediately where they want to go without going through a search. [TS]

  When people know where they want to go. Yeah that's true but why couldn't you. [TS]

  In this on the bar Why couldn't you match against page titles rather than you [TS]

  or else nobody knows of the titles of pages are half of the holes are probably the same set of rules I don't know the [TS]

  titles are all spammed up with keyword crap anyway. Breaking News World News. [TS]

  That's true as well but I mean if you're looking for Apple [TS]

  and you've been to Apple dot com In the past I'm assuming that the title on Apple's landing page is something that says [TS]

  Apple Inc or whatever. [TS]

  I mean well the top level domain things that we talked about last about the last show have not come through [TS]

  and wiped out all sanity in domain names. [TS]

  The currency is still a cache an association with like something dot com People know what dot com is [TS]

  and the reason they know about it is because they've been seeing in the address bar [TS]

  and it is a way something to hang your hat on. [TS]

  You know if someone says oh you can't you know you should check out blah blah blah dot com You know it's something you [TS]

  should go home and type in your web browsing you know what distinguishes it as like this is the Web site. [TS]

  Luckily we've gotten rid of the Triple W. More or less even K.C. [TS]

  but There's still something to commit not just like reading up billboards but communicating with friends [TS]

  or whatever you don't want to tell someone I just typed this into your thing I'm sure it'll be the number one result if [TS]

  you know it's like go to Netflix dot com and you can sign up for Netflix. What about the Hell's Netflix dot com it. [TS]

  When you type in an address bar the results to a horse and they don't know the details [TS]

  but they know like that's different than saying if you just search for Netflix you'll find it which is also true [TS]

  but communicating in dot coms with each other advertising them and telling other people about them. [TS]

  I still think there is value in that. Our final sponsor this week is new relic going to new relic dot com slash A.T.P. [TS]

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  For a thirty day free trial. [TS]

  So I open sourced my blogging engine during the time between the last episode [TS]

  and today does the name of your blogging engine and then lists now. Wow she's called Camel analysts. [TS]

  Now just camel which I still don't know how to pronounce the word right but it's a combination my first and. [TS]

  All names port and something or other. John it's French I think. [TS]

  Well portmanteau that we're talking about I don't know how to pronounce it either I think that's it. [TS]

  Well thank you thank you for taking the fall for me this week. [TS]

  Anyways so there's not really that much to be said here and I'm actually going to not say much like usually [TS]

  but I did open source that it's on get hub and I already got a poll request which I accepted which was a one liner [TS]

  but it was a one liner that I didn't think to include myself which was to set the content type for the R. Says feed. [TS]

  But [TS]

  but now it's been an interesting experience that it was very it was very stressful the thought of open sourcing it as a [TS]

  kind of wanted to [TS]

  but I was so scared that by doing so everyone will realize that I don't really know anything about node or express [TS]

  and I just kind of hacked this together [TS]

  and it's held together in the same way that My Space was as we were talking about earlier. [TS]

  But nobody's really come out of the woodwork to say that I'm completely off the reservation which is good [TS]

  and granted everyone's code does suck in some way shape or form but [TS]

  but no it's been pretty quiet I'd like having it up there that now the biggest home I have is that I feel like it's [TS]

  feature complete I don't feel like I really want to add anything I've since since last episode I added my loose [TS]

  pagination which you can't see because I'm posted enough on my site yet but. [TS]

  But now that it's now I'm like really into it really excited about it but I don't have anything else to do. [TS]

  Well I guess any new project you tweeted about like that the line counselor was like four hundred lines of code [TS]

  but it was hearing all of the stats but it let me run it real quick it's going to take me a second [TS]

  but what I tweeted was that I had roughly four hundred five lines trying to get there right now on. [TS]

  I had roughly four hundred lines of code that I had written with C. Clock camel So let's see. [TS]

  OK so four hundred forty lines of code for me right now that I wrote myself. Now I'm going to look at the new modules. [TS]

  So all the third party libraries that I imported [TS]

  and it is nine hundred fifty six unique files ninety four thousand five hundred eighty lines of kind of how I feel less [TS]

  bad about my ridiculous that a constant blogging thing because I was born in lines of code [TS]

  and it's like I don't have four hundred lines of code in any single file I could [TS]

  but then you know in in the pro world like I'm on the prowl but in my world I [TS]

  and I like writing frameworks I like Marco I have this problem I like writing tools I like writing frameworks are not [TS]

  going to use someone else's framework and then a first step in writing [TS]

  and making a blog is first write a framework for making web occasions that I can read a blog using the framework. [TS]

  Third you know like and so I have a tremendous number of lines but I have way less than ninety five thousand. [TS]

  You know I was actually made my own and probably going to make your object systems I'm in my own object system [TS]

  and use that objects is really serious. What a great language. [TS]

  Yeah that's fantastic Yeah that definitely the best language of all the moronically which is all you can talk mature [TS]

  javascript the javascript you're making your own object system too so let's not throw stones here [TS]

  but we can make a class big system out of this prototype bassist amongst Anyway the amazing thing is that P.H.P. [TS]

  Actually has a really good object system. It's probably the best between these three languages. [TS]

  Well not to go on a sidebar the thing about products like the ability to build your own objects means that people keep [TS]

  making your logic systems in Perl and it is allowed us to have five thousand different objects systems [TS]

  and sort of you know evolutionary kind of lets that converge on something that's good to the bad ones go off and die [TS]

  and we get new ones whereas if you have an object system built into a language and that's the only way you can do it. [TS]

  If that object has them is bad or becomes bad in the future you have no choice [TS]

  but to move in a language with Perl it's like whoa throw away that one was crap you make a new one and go again [TS]

  and again and so it is a little test tube for different not a different experiment [TS]

  and a lot of the experiments that have been done in provider of will lead to Perl six [TS]

  but anyway I feel better about my giant codebase. Because it is still way US lines that all those no modules. [TS]

  Even though I happened to write all of them because you know it is likely remarked Well in so on the one side I tweeted [TS]

  it expects Pressley because I thought it was remarkable. [TS]

  It was both remarkable that it took only four hundred fifty lines to write what I consider to be a full featured blog [TS]

  engine at least for for the needs that I have [TS]

  but it's also remarkable that I'm leveraging basically a hundred thousand lines of other people's code in order to get [TS]

  there. [TS]

  And on the one side I would tell you that that is a completely terrible idea to use that much code do you have no [TS]

  control over and granted it's all open source but I don't have. I don't intend to to open up any of that source. [TS]

  But on this side of the coin most of this code especially note the node community seems to be very into testing. [TS]

  Let's show how to what the test coverage is how many of the tests are passing as of right now. [TS]

  And so because of that I would argue that using all of this code is like how Marco talks about using my sequel because [TS]

  he's not the biggest user of my sequel [TS]

  and my sequels been proven it's been tested a million zillion people have used it and we know it's solid [TS]

  and maybe that's not true of every package that I've chosen [TS]

  but nevertheless I got to assume that most of them are pretty well tested pretty robust [TS]

  and I really shouldn't have to worry about them so like I said half of me is freaking out about using a hundred [TS]

  thousand lines of other people's code [TS]

  but the other half means like well actually it's probably for the best that I don't roll my own on all that stuff. [TS]

  Now you're supposed to be doing that everyone is using that. [TS]

  That's not even the beginning of the count of number of lines of other people's code using their own toboggan as a [TS]

  targeting works like on the same thing as us like you know in fact I would say that's a good measure of the health of [TS]

  the javascript ecosystem is like you only had to write the code that was relevant to the thing you were trying to make. [TS]

  Yeah I think everything else you could use a library that was reasonably well known that you didn't have to like you [TS]

  know do hunting one hundred around for something. There was something suitable for your needs. [TS]

  Like it was a reason we all supported so I deserve all good things I was just you know [TS]

  when you had said it was four hundred lines of code I was like wow I'm a really getting a lot more Democrat less lines [TS]

  of code [TS]

  but then at the top of your thing you have a thousand require statements like that I make sense some of these libraries [TS]

  I recognize it's not eight thousand how many years [TS]

  and it's like tennis you know I get a comment for static strong language because I put it in air quotes here. [TS]

  What would you relax. [TS]

  Thanks what two or three sponsors this week Bigloo new reality and nature box and we will see you next week. [TS]

  Now to be thin. It was accidental and accidental. [TS]

  John and you are now getting access to that list [TS]

  and we talk about the format of your flower box comments here to do you know have you not decided how you're going to [TS]

  handle things and Javascript is clearly evened out the job is good naming conventions of capitalization [TS]

  but the little box thing of the misshapen throne [TS]

  but is that a formal use in C C four sponsored Is that a special thing that you may just read I was gripped. I'm. [TS]

  After I've done it occasionally in the past I did it for Joe So in C. [TS]

  Sharp I would use regions which basically is called code folding. [TS]

  Same way that you would use pragma is in a jet to see [TS]

  and that's what I would do there's Well little bit less cold so to call it God I can pronounce that code faulting in [TS]

  Objective C. In more about the dropdown at the top of the editor but anyways that's right that's right. [TS]

  Integration right is not a feature of the language you're just. Yes yes yes exactly what you just said. [TS]

  But for this you know it's four hundred fifty lines [TS]

  and I just wanted something that would catch my eye as I'm scrolling down the file [TS]

  and so I thought a big three line comment would do the trick. Hideous troll would you have done like that. [TS]

  Can we count the way this is bad maybe the flower box or my coding. [TS]

  No the flower box are OK so it's not symmetrical because you've got the beginning end of the comments like at angles to [TS]

  each other upper left lower right so right away it's all the shape the sides of the box because of the way the font [TS]

  spacing is a giant gaps in the side but really tight things on the top right and then inside it you have some text. [TS]

  It's all caps I get shouting at me it's it [TS]

  and the with the day to come to know is like sixty I don't even know I just randomly is wide enough it's sufficiently [TS]

  wide it's randomly sized I give them down to this. [TS]

  This format for writing comment so I will I really think we have to see or could I do too. [TS]

  Has the world ever seen your code in this time this time the stuff on SCI pedophilia feel free to go look at and laugh. [TS]

  Anything recent though. [TS]

  I mean like I update the things on the van frequently So like if you look at the date will be like two thousand [TS]

  thirteen two thousand and fourteen but the vast majority of the code was written a long time. [TS]

  That's not why it's hideous like it's just I mean if you look at what it does it's crazy you know. [TS]

  I mean coat of ridge they were in the ninety's like so you know I put it up against anyone else's go they were in the [TS]

  ninety's but I look at it now and it's very bad but aesthetically and formatting wise I'm very particular. [TS]

  About that I like my you know I like my glow signs to line up in [TS]

  when there's a bunch of assignments with each other I'm very sensitive of the formatting of comments so they look nice [TS]

  and don't add visual noise and I get upset when there is no sane way to indent stuff with spyware [TS]

  or go insane with Objective C. Because sometimes it's like look this is not going to work out for anybody. [TS]

  Just like these are really sure knew the really long and no matter how you ended up it looks weird yeah it is. [TS]

  Is tougher than if you're if you're like a whitespace formatting purist. [TS]

  Good to see you basically has no standard that's good that's actually useful. Like I try to which came in R.C. [TS]

  Style into it which does not work gracefully but it works well enough for me. [TS]

  It's weird you had some similar problems in that there are some constructs that are just always ugly [TS]

  and like there's no there's no system for formatting them all you know you can see [TS]

  and simpler languages just have nicer rules especially like with the [TS]

  when the pieces you're moving around are of similar size whereas if you're in a language for the size these things can [TS]

  vary wildly like really long class names and really sharp surnames and really short class names as just [TS]

  and square brackets versus Curly's versus per ends [TS]

  and just no decision works that I get upset about that I like my code to be aesthetically guys who want to use Python [TS]

  isn't. [TS]

  Isn't it part of the language to learn everything and have underscores in front of [TS]

  and it will be stabbing me in the eyes all the time. [TS]

  Kareen awesome double underscore as before [TS]

  and after that will show this is a special method with meaning to the language. [TS]

  Well even the funny thing about this code. Mike code in camel is that I tried my darndest. [TS]

  I think I succeeded in doing the thing that I hate so much in Objective C. and C. [TS]

  Sharp which is when you have say like an if statement having the opening brace bracket brace brace on the same way. [TS]

  See if statement I would prefer them so that the braces are all on the scene in the same column [TS]

  and Java Script is not that way and so you know like in a function declaration is another example. [TS]

  So function all post paginated you know some parameters open curly newline and I know it drives me crazy. [TS]

  Yeah that's that's key in our C. Style like I've been doing that for a while. [TS]

  It's the worst I hate it but it's the Java Script way and I'm trying to trying to learn [TS]

  and if you look at all the Perl code they disposed of the chat room like that was my chosen style you know I always Max [TS]

  up vertically opening closing Curly's in any language that I did in any C. [TS]

  Like language but in my job for the past five years I've been doing it the other way [TS]

  and I have to admit that my fingers have been rewired. It's unfortunate. [TS]

  So now when I have to go at it my own code in like you know to fix bugs and I see band models or whatever. [TS]

  I find myself doing it the other way [TS]

  and it's like I had you know a lot of is why I still maintain that that other way is better [TS]

  but it's not better enough the way where they are vertically aligned Yeah [TS]

  but it is not something I was going to argue like it's not better enough to make a difference so you know there's not [TS]

  only this code that I'm looking at of yours from Rose is absolutely terrible also aesthetically because it well in the [TS]

  languages I'm used to. [TS]

  If it's not a function call it should be if space open for [TS]

  and yes I do know that that is that is an example of a style that I've changed I don't do that anymore. [TS]

  I put spaces after the F. [TS]

  I don't know why I didn't put [TS]

  and spaces after the my like there's many things I like in this code that I did not do any more at all. [TS]

  What about the not operator of space not no I don't I don't I don't I don't go to space out of the not the not stuck to [TS]

  the thing that is negating I agree that's weird. Yes it would be if space open for em not like a local. [TS]

  We may differ over these small things here and there [TS]

  but at least we can agree that we're not animals like the people who don't put space around binary operators like those [TS]

  people should just all be pushed off a cliff I don't even know what. [TS]

  And there are people out there who will defend that it's like a water you know everyone can be out braces here braces [TS]

  there. [TS]

  You know space after the you know explanation point [TS]

  but come on space around binary operators like that's just disgusting. [TS]

  Like just jam out [TS]

  and there are people you think they don't exist I don't know if you have met I've met them these people are like no no [TS]

  there should not be spaces around Eagles are you crazy you know plus equals mind if they just jam it all together [TS]

  and you know it doesn't matter what the context knows people are just I don't know what happened in their life that [TS]

  made them do so P.H.P. [TS]

  Had the stupid idea of let's make the string nation operator at the dock which is also used for other things [TS]

  but it will point out that the street again operator editing they got that from the Pro way. [TS]

  Yes stupid that's not a compliment. [TS]

  Probably got a for Mark it's great it's much better than plus as you'll learn [TS]

  when you try to do stuff in Java Script of it as a number or a string you'll find out whatever following it. [TS]

  Yeah [TS]

  but yes that was allowed to really discover the whole thing about like how javascript doesn't really have a good integer [TS]

  type like like written a lot about everything slowed down that I was here yet so you have like you have basically the [TS]

  equivalent of I think fifty three bit integers at best. So if you were using it sixty four then your app yet. [TS]

  Good look at the Java Script and others that this is the money one of the many reasons the gyroscope sucks [TS]

  and one of the many things that people who try to write serious applications and jobs here very soon discovered [TS]

  and by the time that by the time they discover they're like it's a formal part of the learning would scream I think [TS]

  it's so funny that like you know like just like like when Gruber and Brent Simmons did that video for Microsoft [TS]

  and I said like Wouldn't it be funny if you went back to like you know two thousand and six Gruber and showed him this. [TS]

  You know wouldn't be funny if you went back to two thousand and six programmers and said in two thousand [TS]

  and fourteen the cool new hip language everyone is writing everything is javascript if you told me in twenty. [TS]

  Thirteen that I would take this on for fun. [TS]

  A little laugh in your face I absolutely would laughed in your face like oh so many other things like Objective C. [TS]

  For that matter. People are excited by what they can do with it. [TS]

  How web applications are cool if you know right away about the Asian Brown modern browsers run javascript really well [TS]

  everybody has them. [TS]

  Suddenly Java Script this crappy language you know you can do cool things that people may hate Objective C. [TS]

  The way you do with the data so you can write [TS]

  and I was happy I was that circle that's appealing you know so that's that's what it all comes down to if Javascript [TS]

  did not exist in browsers it would be about as popular as Perl. [TS]