The Accidental Tech Podcast

71: Security By Guilt

 

  If you know me but feed on a fast fast [TS]

  when you're there what of in your ticket to finance you know what you know it's obvious now that Casey There was making [TS]

  fast techs have too many features fitted just simply sent the word you know to everybody who did nine [TS]

  or now Little did I know you thought too big I go I gotta have a way to configure different messages [TS]

  and send them all in but you know just send the word you know push notification done and done. [TS]

  Seriously how can the valley take themselves seriously [TS]

  when I mean what that was a product of the valley I assume right. [TS]

  Mark I was on had departed nine dollars homepage nine a homemade still wins because that venture capital money like he [TS]

  has to actually spend that a trial like grow the business [TS]

  or whatever the million dollar home page I just got the money and it has free [TS]

  and clear like he does not have to invest it into a business he is not expected to hire employees to get off the place [TS]

  like the venture capital money this guy got comes with massive strings attached [TS]

  and he will never be able to fill the what these people want because he's stupid [TS]

  and his business is stupid so the millionaire home page guy still wins for the best business plan of any business in [TS]

  the entire universe and I continue to try to think of some equivalent. [TS]

  Many have tried like the smartest person in the world. [TS]

  Casey had the idea you were trying to do a web site when I went to work for just the web page [TS]

  but that you get your financial investment. [TS]

  Even [TS]

  when he didn't like in one hundred ninety five like his total financial investment in a static web page like hosting it [TS]

  and paying for bandwidth. She must've been like let's say one hundred dollars. [TS]

  Again it's on the millionaire income do we make this the intro. Oh I was already planned doing that yeah. [TS]

  Guy man even if the answer was like five minutes long before we actually get to the real show and I'm OK with that. [TS]

  Yeah when I was a million dollar home pages. [TS]

  These days they can look it up for God's sake it is not hard to find it is still up I hope. [TS]

  It was guaranteed to be a sort of at a time right. So up it's still fast selling posters of it genius. Yeah it didn't. [TS]

  It probably doesn't lose all that data if the server crashed yesterday. Home mean to me. [TS]

  My goodness I have the MS is one aspect of that I guess he had to do something assuming he didn't program this he would [TS]

  have to put in the pixels that they paid for in their places right. [TS]

  I'm pretty sure he did it manually because otherwise it's kind of a layout issue. [TS]

  The box packing problem right right so there is some small component of labor [TS]

  but I have to be sure the the bet of money he was laying on made that labor more bearable. [TS]

  Well this is all and he had to make the image map and links to it I guess. So had he had the right H.T.M.L. [TS]

  and Click buttons in an image editor. Oh yeah this is long before anything more useful than that. [TS]

  You got a mouse over that it was an advanced technology he really put a lot of time in ever not only so I just expanded [TS]

  the I did inspect element on safari [TS]

  and I expanded the map element I think I just crashed the best part of you got like fake kill tips for I guess the days [TS]

  of our brothers didn't do automatic updates and you see the fake one [TS]

  and the real one like the fake one solve the cursor but the real one like it sounded [TS]

  and how many hits a day do you think does get I mean the only bad thing is that a yes he thought kind of small because [TS]

  million dollars doesn't last that long. [TS]

  I'm sure he's already gone through this money or whatever [TS]

  but it's a hell of a start for like starting your adult life at twenty whatever years old he was [TS]

  and so unfortunately he's now in the same situation as rest the world is like I need another idea it's like that if he [TS]

  had done ten million dollar home page he would've been a lot more comfortable. [TS]

  Wait so you see this play out [TS]

  and you see how it's like all loud because he didn't control who bought you know so it's like visually very loud right [TS]

  now but it looks like the web in the ninety's really yeah. His new web his new venture com dot com. [TS]

  If I spent a million dollars and I don't mean as Spurs Twitter account he is the founder and C.E.O. [TS]

  Of calm but is not moving as quickly as the million dollar. [TS]

  No it isn't maybe just like take it down with three simultaneous request has got a little water background [TS]

  and now I'm seeing a cloud background or prepare for your two minute session. [TS]

  Choose your preferred major something or some B.S. [TS]

  Relaxation thing you know the day idea was better and makes people send him money. [TS]

  The site was guaranteed to be online at least through August twenty sixth two thousand and ten. [TS]

  However the aim is to keep the site online forever or as long as humanly possible. [TS]

  Have a host of at the sold out banner. [TS]

  Yeah right if you want to still want to buy things sold out and the minimum purchase was ten by ten [TS]

  or a hundred dollars because a dollar pixel that says I was his only thing is I thought a little bit small because [TS]

  anyone who bought this like I guess he probably did get some private individuals [TS]

  but mostly it's going to be businesses [TS]

  and businesses are willing to spend way more than one hundred dollars on vs boondoggles like this. [TS]

  Even back then where they go yeah definitely. [TS]

  Like I mean I'm not saying you going to got thousands but you could have got you know three hundred [TS]

  or five hundred easy because one hundred to one hundred is under the petty cash threshold even to most businesses in [TS]

  the ninety's you know type of site pixel advertising is on Wikipedia [TS]

  or there are many as opposed to non pixel advertising so see Click on pixel advertising and it's [TS]

  and you end up back on the million dollar home page redirected from pixel had. [TS]

  Marco but I mean I'm three and I let me do some extraordinarily quick follow up the show bought us back [TS]

  and if I was more prepared which I'm not because the show is accidental. [TS]

  I've had some people contributing to it and I know Jeremy banks put a lot of work into it. [TS]

  Kyle Cronin Cronin did and Brad showed. Who runs the show but that actually works. [TS]

  He is also contributed and I'm probably forgetting some people here and there and for that I'm deeply sorry [TS]

  and I really mean that because I didn't pull up the I didn't pull up get her before we started [TS]

  but yes the Shabat is back. [TS]

  We've And by we I mean everyone but me has made some pretty good improvements to it will see a long it lasts. [TS]

  We are currently about two minutes into recording and it hasn't quite died yet [TS]

  but it's been a really good inside it's been a really really cool thing to see people issuing poll requests only bad [TS]

  thing about putting something that's semi popular on the internet and open sourcing it is that unbeknownst to me [TS]

  when people actually pay attention which I'm not used to you actually have some sort of implied time commitment to like [TS]

  look at poll requests and figure things out [TS]

  but that that's a good topic for a show do you have an implied time commitment to do you feel. [TS]

  Obviously you think you do but do you actually that's not for today's topic [TS]

  but I was going to say we could use the standard a standard consulting term [TS]

  and we could put that in the parking lot for now. What wait hold on. That's a real thing. [TS]

  So I spent all day in meetings and I'm about to cry. What is wrong with you people. [TS]

  I'm I regret to say that I do know about the parking lot on the market doesn't the OH MY GOD WHAT. [TS]

  You've already broken my brain like the rest. I said I'm done I can say in the Google I O. Didn't do it. [TS]

  Know that you can prove my brain more than Google I O. Did. That's really saying something. [TS]

  You're welcome you know you should have been doing all this time and you haven't figured it out now. [TS]

  I will give you the hint to help you along that path even though you're being dragged down by the people as it is you [TS]

  had the chat room filled with people who were attacking your bot and everything [TS]

  and how it's going to help improve it and help you improve your code and be educational [TS]

  and entertaining for everyone involved. You should've immediately tried to enlist a faction of people who. [TS]

  For it on your side because it's very easy to get programmers on your side [TS]

  when presented with a problem like a bunch of other people are attacking this program. Help me make it stronger. [TS]

  At least half of the people who are attacking probably would've said I'd like to be on the defense side. [TS]

  In this game you know I mean and gaming parlors do are the attackers or defenders. [TS]

  You haven't done that it's been happening to you people have been saying here let me help you out with your bot [TS]

  but I think you would have been successful even in the very first show saying I know people are going to attack this [TS]

  and if you want to be on the defense side join me and then you can be a power dynamic going [TS]

  and I bet it would be a much more fair fight. [TS]

  Well in that's true but we've had like I said some volunteers come out of the woodwork [TS]

  and make some really excellent changes a couple of them have started we're looking at putting like memcache in front of [TS]

  it or some equivalent thereof I haven't had the time to look into the specifics of the more invasive [TS]

  but I mean that in a good way. [TS]

  And it's sort of been made to the show [TS]

  but I know there are there are automated test now which I also didn't hear yet but one of one of my cronies [TS]

  and again I mean that a good way has added automated testing [TS]

  and at some point I plan on turning that on so that is things get checked into Masters in pushed into Master [TS]

  and so on automated tests will run. [TS]

  We did have somebody contributes some red jacks [TS]

  and specifically call you out in say in a happy way saying well I don't know this is up to you John quality [TS]

  but nevertheless I did something it was around the suggest checking checking for this. The exclamation point. [TS]

  Yes but would you go see bang asked or would you say exclamation point. [TS]

  What is a direct it's just two characters that always are the same. [TS]

  Well [TS]

  but it could be it could be exploration point answer could be explanation point suggest if they both begin with escalation [TS]

  point. [TS]

  Well that's the way I looked at it [TS]

  but apparently if you feel if you find yourself in the presence of anyone who's ever touched parole in their lives then [TS]

  their hammer is made of Reggie. [TS]

  It's an everything looks like now you want to be permissive in what kind of input you take in because humans are [TS]

  writing it so you have to love a variable not the spacing [TS]

  and inevitably you have to extract the part that is not the command and that is the title [TS]

  and you're going to want to do things with a title like normalize it for purposes [TS]

  and then turn on a little space runs to the official version that you display and all that good stuff. [TS]

  And that's exactly what regular expressions are for. If you're a C. [TS]

  Programmer and you're stepping to the strand character time I feel bad for your son as they say. [TS]

  Now I have two questions with with all these improvements to the show but Question number one is it rate limited. [TS]

  Yes Somebody added some modicum of rate limiting. [TS]

  I've been I haven't been paying super close attention which comes back to what John said we should put in the parking [TS]

  lot or what I said we should put the parking lot. [TS]

  But anyways there is a modicum of rate limiting and there is still no persistance so [TS]

  when this inevitably go that was question number two this inevitably goes down we're going to lose our title so I hope [TS]

  the actual show is still around. [TS]

  BRADSHAW It's show but anyway [TS]

  but it's an ad so I've I've turned a new leaf friend of the show Chris Harris from originally from the other media now [TS]

  it's with Glyde publishing. [TS]

  He wrote me a very nice email saying in so many words yes it's annoying [TS]

  but it makes for good programming so you know deal with it. [TS]

  So I'm going to try to put on my happy face when the show [TS]

  but inevitably goes down in like ten minutes on the probably end up really ticked off again. [TS]

  But standing here now I'm going to put on my happy face. [TS]

  So I bet the guy who wrote you in with like the your I am ing about a particular known bug that could take out the show [TS]

  by very quickly the person who wrote in to you about that probably now feels bad about exploiting it and won't say. [TS]

  So you've sort of got that person on your side to this is no fun anymore to like because if you know about the bug [TS]

  and he told you about the bug [TS]

  and he knows it's not fixed it's not as fun to exploit it to bring the thing down great security by guilt someone on [TS]

  the chair and said well oh it's hacking it. [TS]

  It's more than fun and fun than defending that's like level one level two is that defending is more friendly [TS]

  and came to the attacking the attackers all think they're hot [TS]

  but really if you're a defender that shows you're better than all the attackers You know it's the white hat black hat [TS]

  thing and I feel like white hat is the next level from black [TS]

  and because everyone wants to be black at all going to crack into things [TS]

  but to be a white you are saying that you are better than any potential black cat which is even more both a state [TS]

  and we died gone that was it. [TS]

  Let me see if it doesn't mean that other people didn't also know that that known bug and weren't on your side. [TS]

  Let's see where did I see a stack trace. Unspecified apparently there was just some sort of error in the web socket. [TS]

  You guys stall why put up a just so people who actually know what the crap they're doing can can diagnosis our first [TS]

  Pons for this week isn't well timed or yeah right. [TS]

  I'm getting good at this sometimes maybe occasionally our new sponsor this week is raised labs are A I Z L E B S raise [TS]

  labs they are a full service development firm with offices in Boston and San Francisco. [TS]

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  The company got a start by shipping one of the very first several hundred amps in the abstract called Run Keeper it's [TS]

  actually been there since the beginning. Boston based G.P.S. [TS]

  Fitness tracking app anyway raised labs wants to change the world with great software they care about crafting quality [TS]

  products and they are looking for others that share this mentality. [TS]

  See the sponsor it's actually a job listing they're actively hiring for experienced mobile developers i OS [TS]

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  and exciting new startups they're also looking for talented designers to help craft a memorable experience for users as [TS]

  well as product manager. [TS]

  Yes you'll be working with enthusiastic and supportive peers in a trust based work environment. [TS]

  I wonder if they have a parking lot. If it plays an have a parking lot it can they still use that phrase. [TS]

  Sure there are major metro areas they might even have a parking lot because they know their intent there anyway. [TS]

  Well we'll just assume they'll use that phrase with good people. [TS]

  So you'll be working with enthusiastic [TS]

  and supportive peers in a trust based work environment they also have unique vacation and referral programs. [TS]

  Their vacation policy is unlimited unmetered it can be summed up in four words in team we trust. [TS]

  How much time you take off is up to you. [TS]

  They also have this referral program where anyone who refers a town's individual to raise labs will receive a four day [TS]

  all expenses paid vacation for two and you can learn about that and raise up a dot com slash trip. [TS]

  They also have hacked days every two weeks. [TS]

  The only requirement is that you must devil or present whatever you've learned [TS]

  and they're involved in the I was community with sponsoring events such as all cons [TS]

  and drinks on tap so check raise labs they're looking for good people if you want to work there. Get in touch. [TS]

  Raise lads R.E.I. Z L E B S dot com slash A.T.P. Once again that's raise with his E. Rays Lab dot com slash A.T.P. [TS]

  Thanks a lot to raise last response on the show [TS]

  and check him out if you want a job all right so Jeremy banks in the chat is one of the people who are dedicated not in [TS]

  significant amount of time to improving the show bought and apparently one of the many branches [TS]

  and poll requests that is out there that I haven't had a chance to look at fixes this problem which is to say that I [TS]

  wasn't catching or handling errors and web sockets and of course I probably shouldn't have been in the first place [TS]

  but eventually that exceptions bubbled up and brought everything to its knees so that I believe is what happened. [TS]

  But it's event driven right and scalable. [TS]

  This is how it scales well what circuits are a little bit weird but your point is not unreasonable. [TS]

  But anyway we could. We don't need to talk about any more. It lasted what ten minutes. [TS]

  That's not power not even is an improvement. It's getting worse every week. [TS]

  Last fifteen let's you know yeah you're right I did my best trying to stall for time by getting people to not bring it [TS]

  down. So I worked as a law. [TS]

  Do we have any actual other follow up I'm in we have like this you know four pages worth in the document [TS]

  but if you read this or I thought one item at the very top [TS]

  and it could be a topic to us as I figured we would talk about Google I O. [TS]

  but Then Casey said he didn't even watch it on the show will talk about today but I had one apple D.C. [TS]

  Sort of related topic so it's kind of follow up. [TS]

  Well you know the follow up is the essence of experience design the strength of our actions our inflection point to [TS]

  transform the whole design their emphasis mix core functionality immediately apparent [TS]

  and provides waypoints for the user it's not the worst one though they were the one that the tweet is I think that was [TS]

  because I read that like six times and I'm like this. [TS]

  There's not even their verb in the sentence anywhere I was just as well for what it's worth I did at least look a [TS]

  couple of recaps to see the general gist of what was said [TS]

  and I watched one of their like what is this silly term they have for design material based design [TS]

  or something like that of material metaphor is the unifying theory of a rationalized space and a system of motion. [TS]

  Our material is grounded in tactile reality inspired by our study of paper and ink yet open to imagination [TS]

  and magic the thing that scared me [TS]

  when he tweeted that because he's to the table something like Apple has you know some high high minded knowledge [TS]

  or you know B.S. [TS]

  Language essentially in their copy sometimes but this really takes the cake [TS]

  and I'm like That's from an Apple Web site that he was saying that they have some crazy stuff sometimes a lot of this [TS]

  is the worst thing they've ever done and I was looking at I'm like what what web page could that possibly be from that. [TS]

  That can't be from an Apple site and I was relieved to learn that it was not five but it was from a Google site. [TS]

  Yeah knots. [TS]

  Great no but I will say that literally two or two [TS]

  and a half minute video that they have on their new design site where they don't really say much of anything I don't. [TS]

  think but they show the kind of idea behind the look and feel of what is this Android L. [TS]

  But anyways that actually looks good to me in a lot of it looked a lot like I.O.'s and some of it didn't [TS]

  but I thought it was good. [TS]

  I thought the Apple video there a little interest for our seven look better [TS]

  but it's not like we could talk to the whole show talking about how Google is worse a giving keynotes an apple [TS]

  but really it doesn't matter that much how good the keynote is or how I guess how good the copy [TS]

  and marketing on our side matters a little bit more because that's persistent. [TS]

  But in terms of like why do this thing why do this material you why Google has been trying for the past several years [TS]

  to address its perceived [TS]

  and I think actual shortcoming in user interface by saying it should look less like a bunch of programmers slap [TS]

  something together and more like they were designers involved and it's been a slow long process [TS]

  and this is the next step in it to try to you know unify Google's user interface across all the things that have you [TS]

  and is your interface to give a family resemblance or whatever. That's that's a good idea. [TS]

  I mean you can argue whether it should be unified across everything from watches to televisions [TS]

  but Apple kind of has a common design language across everything that it does even if they're not as as similar as this [TS]

  material U.I. Supposed to be. [TS]

  Yeah I mean I definitely think it's they're going in in a good direction they're going a direction they need to go [TS]

  and a lot of the things they talked about while they were full of this you know blowhard in the cloud language [TS]

  and who knows what they were sniffing over there when they came up with some of this [TS]

  but the design the actual design below all this B.S. Looks pretty good to me. But it's easy. [TS]

  You know it's we can't really judge. It's way too early. [TS]

  Just because we don't really know how this will be in practice [TS]

  and the three of us will probably never know because I'll probably never use it regularly to even see it [TS]

  but you know it's easy to say it's easy to give a good demo. Well is it easy. Is it easy to give a good fair pocket. [TS]

  It's like there's going to be some challenge of this like every like every design language like every especially every [TS]

  like trendy looking design language. [TS]

  One of the things I noticed immediately was it seems extremely reliant on fairly undiscoverable gestures [TS]

  and you can say that about a lot of Iowa stuff as well but it seemed like this was especially so in that direction. [TS]

  That's a little bit scary to me from just from a usability perspective anything that revolves around like oh well you [TS]

  can you can just pinch this out and drag here and move this thing around. [TS]

  Well it has to be pretty clear to people you know what can move what can what is drag Well what CAN'T of this if [TS]

  there's something like a picture or a drag that can expose pretty good functionality How do you ever figure that out. [TS]

  That that's always tricky with gesture based interfaces and that's going to be a challenge here too. [TS]

  That being said I again I think it's too early to tell because anybody can well almost anybody can make a good demo. [TS]

  It's even easier to make good video. [TS]

  It's much harder to actually predict how this will be once it's integrated through the whole system [TS]

  and once after integrating it [TS]

  and none of the three of us know enough about Android to even know what the main problems these days are not having is [TS]

  it is not a reason for it to not pick up things they don't like about it. [TS]

  So I do things they complain about from the first two players actually complain about all the recent visual redesign [TS]

  things is that I was does the you know Google's doing or does everybody who does some sort of U.I. [TS]

  Refresh feels this need to peer pressure [TS]

  or is it just like you know this is not new to computer interfaces I guess this is always been there. [TS]

  They want some kind of theme or metaphor. [TS]

  Our to anchor their design which is a common thing but in the end user interfaces on mobile devices [TS]

  and stuff like the metaphor the glue used was Don't think of it as a bunch of pixels think think of the pixels not just [TS]

  having X. and Y. [TS]

  Coordinates but also as the coordinates [TS]

  and down to the point where in the demo there like in your you are you also actually gives the the layering to all of [TS]

  your things and then our user interface library will make them look like they have the layering by applying shadows [TS]

  and rendering them realtime L.-A stuff or whatever [TS]

  but that metaphor like that you need this metaphor that's like pieces of paper and they're stacked and they have a Z. [TS]

  Index or like Apple or it's like translucent thing sliding past each other and it's a layered thing. [TS]

  Those metaphors are important in that they inform the user interface [TS]

  but it seems like maybe I don't know who is worse about this Apple or Google. [TS]

  Like they take their design [TS]

  and they go beyond just having this be a way that humans look at the screen can understand what supposed to happen [TS]

  and they they just get lost in it and think that everything in their user interface has to inform [TS]

  and reinforce that metaphor for the sake of the metaphor not like it flips instead of the metaphor being this is how [TS]

  we're going to get people to understand how to use our device. [TS]

  It becomes the metaphor is the goal and every part of a user interface has to reinforce [TS]

  and build on that metaphor right down to being clever expansions of that metaphor [TS]

  and doing stuff like that if they lose the forest for the trees. [TS]

  So every time I see one of these videos that explains what the underlying thing is [TS]

  and then spends the rest of the video showing how everything fold into the don't align thing I'd rather have them show [TS]

  me how the metaphor makes the interface more understandable to people [TS]

  and said show me how every part of user interface conforms to the metaphors but that's one thing [TS]

  and again you can't tell until we use it [TS]

  but I can tell from the presentations of this is this is how the presenting their U.I. [TS]

  and The second thing but as a second I feel like lots of them go for a third thing [TS]

  but I can't remember the second thing and I mean the second got I'll get it as I go. [TS]

  So they only spent about the first forty five minutes or so talking about new stuff that was going into Android. [TS]

  Right we have roughly where [TS]

  and then like the rest of it was some of these new initiatives like the Android where Android T.V. [TS]

  Android in your vehicles whatever the entrant Carender driver to go into auto Android is that right. Yeah. [TS]

  Android on the way. [TS]

  OK it seems like you know sort of first forty five minutes here's what's new in Android basically good. [TS]

  You know that's if you're into Android that's probably very relevant [TS]

  and I think what what got people to say it was so boring because in the first part of it everybody was quite interested [TS]

  in all that and you know as I was watching it live I was watching the Twitter response [TS]

  and yeah the first part of it was seem pretty strong and then they get into this you know hour [TS]

  and a half more two hours more of talking about various new hardware integration and initiatives. [TS]

  What's what's bad about that is that none of these things are actual product yet or very few of them are [TS]

  and it's all about like the promise of what you can maybe do this in the future like [TS]

  when Apple you know Apple unveiled the health book Health Kit thing home kit [TS]

  and didn't even mention carful if they did it was very quick in this keynote because you know I think it was didn't [TS]

  launch last year and it didn't initial in NASCAR they last year anyway but they had a Ferrari right [TS]

  but they didn't give it a whole a time that you know because there's not much really to say yet. [TS]

  It's hey we have this new thing we're getting you know we hope people make devices for it basically [TS]

  and we hope you make apps for it once these devices exist. [TS]

  Good luck with that and you know moving on [TS]

  and that's what they did this year with help getting home because there really was not much to say. [TS]

  Google devoted three quarters of their keynote to that [TS]

  and so I think that's why it was so boring because like you know it's like a C.E.O. [TS]

  Ask you know at that point you know C.E.O.'s cancer like famously you know like Microsoft give them our age. [TS]

  Here whoever they really be famously full of vaporware always be like this this crazy stuff that kind of maybe sounds [TS]

  interesting during the demo and kind of sounds possibly impossible [TS]

  or stretching the limits of what consumer products can be or can do realistically [TS]

  and then you know six months later they get canceled and they were never released or they you know they come out [TS]

  and they're really disappointing and they flop in the market because they were nothing like what they were [TS]

  but they're going to be like in the keynote and it's hard to look at Google's rest of their keynote [TS]

  and not make a parallel there because it seems like almost everything they announced after the first forty five minutes [TS]

  was like here's a bunch of new stuff that in the best case scenario might come out fairly soon it might be kind of cool [TS]

  but we're depending on a lot of other people for that to happen [TS]

  and in the meantime here's some pretty terrible smart watches to tide you over. [TS]

  I think that's a little bit harsh because I mean a this is Google's part of the strategy is that they they make a [TS]

  platform that other hardware makers other people can build products on like that's their thing I mean you can say you [TS]

  know like I think as much as Apple thing but that is certainly there are things so to expect school to come out [TS]

  and have products behind every single one of these things that their software platform provides is probably expecting [TS]

  to be too much like Apple [TS]

  but the things that they are the things that they show like the idea that we've got this platform the platform works [TS]

  obviously in phones and tablets. Here is how the platform works on television. Here is how I work my work on a watch. [TS]

  I didn't like the watches either but it is showing that their platform works there and the T.V. [TS]

  Stuff looked pretty good to me. [TS]

  Certainly they have shown an ability to have a single platform that spans all those devices better than Apple has. [TS]

  Steve Apple has its platform it's got its desktop platform in its tablet and phone platform in its T.V. Platform. [TS]

  And there's no unified story that includes all of them. [TS]

  I mean it and you can you can say well we don't want to be unified. [TS]

  Just the MAC and I was devices which is fine but the T.V. [TS]

  Thing already run by us [TS]

  but don't run apps like they're not extending the platform out there so I think that Google is out ahead of Apple in [TS]

  terms of having a unified platform across all their products just so happy that they're not responsible for making all [TS]

  their prices their whole deal is a lot of the people build them and so on and so forth but the T.V. [TS]

  Stuff that they showed that was a whole lot better than Apple T.V. [TS]

  Why don't you guys think you know didn't see very much of it. [TS]

  But one or two images I saw looked very good in the Apple T.V. [TS]

  Is starting to look a little dated but to go back to Step what's so bad about these watches. [TS]

  I'm I don't know I mean I'll tell you what's bad about the watches. [TS]

  Let me not finish my thought [TS]

  but I genuinely would love to hear what you have to say because I'm looking at these pictures that are on the verge of [TS]

  which one is a smaller three sixty and I don't see an issue with the circular display I gained at the around one right. [TS]

  OK will hold. [TS]

  Yes it's around [TS]

  when I hold on now the one thing I was going to say is I have the tiniest wrists that any man has ever had in in the [TS]

  history of mankind and so I think this thing would look ridiculous on me. [TS]

  But let's assume for a moment that I didn't have a little teeny tiny wrists I don't see what's so bad about this I [TS]

  think it looks OK It looks a lot better than a pebble. [TS]

  We're also sponsored this week by our friends at square space they are back once again now we're in this a little [TS]

  different this week Squarespace recognizes that they have supported lots of pod cast big and small. [TS]

  They really fund a lot of them and we all find them very much for that. [TS]

  They want to be in the forefront of helping this medium reach the next level. [TS]

  But for this had really wanted for something different something fun. [TS]

  Our friend Jonathan Mann also on a sunny day man Jonathan Mann who wrote our theme song which you've possibly heard [TS]

  before if you are looking at the end of our show or let's be honest the middle of our show. [TS]

  If you've ever listened so John to member awesome theme song. [TS]

  He also recently he was tired of hearing the same Squarespace reads over [TS]

  and over again so he wrote a Squarespace sponsorship song. [TS]

  Well you know you know when you start a free trial with no credit card required start building your website today [TS]

  when you decide it's on a particular space. Make sure you go to squarespace dot com and use the offer code A.T.P. [TS]

  To get ten percent off your first purchase and to show your support for our show. Once again use Google A.T.P. [TS]

  To get temper sent off thank you very much to Squarespace [TS]

  and Jonathan Mann thank you for sponsoring our show Thanks John of the man for being awesome Squarespace a better web [TS]

  starts with your website. Now John why do smart watches suck. [TS]

  I don't know what smart watches in general but the ones they showed this cool thing [TS]

  and I didn't watch all of the smallish demo but I watch enough to see what they're doing essentially. [TS]

  I just talk about how I was a good idea that Google had a platform that span. [TS]

  And you know little screens the big screens out of the strength of them [TS]

  but I remain unconvinced that the correct way to do a smart watch is to take your user interface that you have on your [TS]

  phones and your tablets and your T.V.'s and continue to shrink it until it's on your wrist and then tap [TS]

  and swipe your way through a series of you eyes that are custom made to fit on a very tiny screen. [TS]

  Because that just was not a good time for me it doesn't look like something that's useful you have to compromise [TS]

  certain certain U.I. [TS]

  Elements and staples just don't work on a small screen like table views and stuff start to become ridiculous [TS]

  when you see two items at once [TS]

  and you know it's just I don't think that's the right solution for a screen that small in the same way that the right [TS]

  solution for a screen the size of a television isn't merely like a tablet U.I. Made larger right. [TS]

  It's something entirely different to mine the uniting touching it it just doesn't seem like there's enough room down [TS]

  there. [TS]

  I'll just I'll just take my regular Android O S and just make it smaller [TS]

  and I'll keep the elements same size of the still touchable. [TS]

  But I don't you know but if there's not room for a particular helmet I just won't put that on there [TS]

  and others have you know small things when you're swiping your tap swiping [TS]

  and tapping on something that small just just looks like a non-starter to me [TS]

  and I have had the you know the small i Pod Nano is with a little touch screen and everything [TS]

  and you know it's just not it doesn't work for me. [TS]

  So I'm I think there is another solution to things that big maybe doesn't involve screens at all if it does maybe they [TS]

  behave in a different way maybe just a matter of putting different U.I. [TS]

  Elements on that screen that don't exist in any form on any of the larger screens. [TS]

  So that's that's why I think these watches are hard to some extent I can see why Google pushes this whole like one [TS]

  interface scalable to every device size thing because they have to because that's that's the environment of Android [TS]

  hardware. They kind of have to do that. [TS]

  In general I do agree though it's going to be a pretty painful approach for developers to try to try to actually [TS]

  fulfill the promise of that [TS]

  and try to actually make like one interface that magically scale to all the different sizes [TS]

  and doesn't suck on any of them. I think it's I think it's custom U.I. For the phone I'm just saying like. [TS]

  The elements that are involved. [TS]

  Buttons regions that you scroll controls for doing things I mean I guess that I've text into pieces of the speech [TS]

  or whatever but just I'm assuming that you have to write a custom U.I. [TS]

  For the server they have custom controls very certainly for them like a circular screen all that stuff [TS]

  but it's just that the elements that are involved in the user interface things that you tap things that you slide [TS]

  things that you scroll through. [TS]

  I don't think there's enough room for that type of interface and I think that small [TS]

  and I'm basing this both by using a touch screen i Pod to have the very small touch screens. [TS]

  It just doesn't feel good at that size. [TS]

  The big problem that we've seen with almost all the smart watch lists come out so far from the pebble to these new ones. [TS]

  It's all about the screen and the screen is never big enough to be useful [TS]

  but never small enough to make for a good watch [TS]

  and that's why I think that really the whole idea of a smart watch might not it might not be possible to make a good [TS]

  one. Certainly not with today's technology but maybe even ever. [TS]

  Like there's this fundamental limits of like the ideal watch does not have a giant screen. [TS]

  But the ideal touch screen is big [TS]

  and so it's very hard to to rectify that conflict design wise you know it even if you could make it like infinitely [TS]

  thin and light and give an infinite battery life you still have the issue of you know we need to somehow maximize [TS]

  but also minimize the size of the screen [TS]

  and I don't know if you're right about that because so I have a couple of friends that that are watch collectors [TS]

  and I think I probably would be one of those people if a I wasn't cheap [TS]

  and I didn't have the tiny wrists that we spoke about earlier [TS]

  but like for example a Rolex is a relative the average stereotypical Rolex is fairly large [TS]

  and like my one friend really really loved Panta Rhei watches which I'd never heard of until I spoke to him that up [TS]

  there very pretty I believe Italian watches and they're huge they're freaking ignore. [TS]

  I'm missin like Clarkson and Hammond on top here. [TS]

  If memory serves are both big into watches and typically where these physically very very large watches. [TS]

  So because Tapia presenters are the fashion leaders of the world. [TS]

  But that's the point though that there are all these people who are wearing these watches are wearing them for fashion [TS]

  reasons not for utilitarian reasons and they don't. [TS]

  How long do they spend looking at the face of those watches you know let alone pawing at the face of those watches in [TS]

  the zero time pawing at the face of the watch is very short Mouse Hunt looking at the face of the lodges they're mostly [TS]

  wearing them as a as a piece of jewelry as a fashion accessory not as utilitarian thing. [TS]

  So these none of these things qualify as fashion accessories because they're ugly. [TS]

  Especially the square one looks terrible circa one looks humongous I guess if you're if you're a giant person it is [TS]

  proportional to you and but then you'll have equivalently giant sausage like fingers [TS]

  and I'll be able to use it anyway [TS]

  but the idea that anyone going to spend any amount of time turning their restored themselves [TS]

  and staring at their rest and pawing at it with their finger to get stuff done. [TS]

  It's like just you know turn their respect [TS]

  and take out their phone like you know a decade ago people in the street weren't holding a rectangle staring out over [TS]

  their head. [TS]

  Now you walk around a city street a little rectangle down the stereotypes that is the change in behavior so it's [TS]

  conceivable that a couple years from now instead of everyone holding little rectangles everyone is staring at the rest [TS]

  as if they're trying to tell what time it is but all can't tell time. [TS]

  Like Boy I can only talk on the stereo and their study [TS]

  but really what they're doing is like reading Twitter on their wrist. [TS]

  I guess that's conceivable [TS]

  but it still seems to me that that's not smart watches not just a phone strategy rest smaller I think that is the wrong [TS]

  solution for smart watches and no matter how good technology gets what if we can make it if it is a piece of paper. [TS]

  If it's still watch size I don't want to be holding up looking at him or point out it with my finger. [TS]

  I think there is a role for something smart that's on your wrist. [TS]

  I'm just I just don't think the role is like a tiny little phone on your wrist. [TS]

  So maybe maybe the solution then you know because I think you're right. [TS]

  This may be the solution really is not to leave the interaction to the walk. [TS]

  To leave the watch really has to be like a very as small as possible a just a display it's a beat up a device for [TS]

  and for notifications open late for my meeting or you know voice input quickly [TS]

  and then it would start sounding off directions to your Bluetooth headset to tell you where to turn as you walk. [TS]

  Like there are there are uses that I can see for nothing a smart watch is done the smart watch is a good idea says that [TS]

  what these guys keep making is a tiny phone on my wrist right whereas if you like if you if you give up on the idea [TS]

  that you should be pulling your watch all the time. [TS]

  If the watch is primary purpose is to give you information and a quick glance [TS]

  and then you leave the interaction of two taking the phone in your pocket which is [TS]

  but you know better suited for the job. [TS]

  In all in almost every case anyway then you can make the watch of stench really simpler [TS]

  and you can make this play much smaller [TS]

  and you can you can then I mean it doesn't even need to be touchscreen on again [TS]

  or you have arrived at I don't have a watch. [TS]

  Well that's true of the three of us I'm the only one who actually wears a watch on my I were watching middle school I [TS]

  wore a watch up until around the time I got an i Phone and then I stopped wearing a watch [TS]

  and I just recently started again. I remember my second thing so good. [TS]

  Tell us about your second we're also smart to the purely so I read the material you are talking about the metaphor [TS]

  taking to much prominence both [TS]

  and I think the second thing is that you need to go to the shop for the material thing that I showed a little bit of it [TS]

  was that they've decided to do something that I thought more Touch user interfaces would do [TS]

  and the fact that no one has done it that much until Google download it is surprising to me [TS]

  but maybe everybody knows something Google does [TS]

  and that thing is showing feedback for your touch as a matter of course as a matter of like. [TS]

  But with the expectation that when you touch [TS]

  or do anything in Uniphase the interface response let you know you've done it. [TS]

  Now that type of feedback is really important in. Regular user interfaces with you know a mouse and everything. [TS]

  Because it's indirect in a way. [TS]

  So you put your cursor of a button click the button you want the button to highlight [TS]

  and you wanted to highlight on mouse down [TS]

  and you want to do something different on mouse up like you want to feel like you're pressing into the you know these [TS]

  are three D. [TS]

  Type interfaces with a button but puffy in early versions of Windows and mac and even today to some degree as well [TS]

  and it lets you know that you were successful at something was happening. [TS]

  If you decide to use events where there are buttons and you click them and nothing happened [TS]

  and then eventually a dialogue going away you might not be sure which button you clicked the same thing with the menus [TS]

  are coming down the mac when you select a menu item on the original mac the menu item you selected would flash on [TS]

  and off a few times before the menu went away because they want you to know. [TS]

  Yeah you were trying to get that menu item. [TS]

  You did get them anyway in fact it was adjustable in the original not to be like one flash to fashion three lashes [TS]

  or whatever visual feedback what's going on. [TS]

  Touch elements do the same thing like an Eye us when you touch a button and invert or whatever like that. [TS]

  But the mature U.I. [TS]

  Seems to go much farther in that it's almost giving you the kind of thing you see on a screen in presentations where [TS]

  they want you to show where the person is touching you can't see their fingers if they're using a device [TS]

  but the device the screen is being projected so they have like the little circles like that appear in the Iowa simulate [TS]

  or whatever but this is part of the OAS that you get a little circle with like little Ripley lines coming out of it [TS]

  and then [TS]

  when you select an element a little ripple goes across the element to show that it selected very heavy handed feedback [TS]

  to let people know that yes I registered your charge. [TS]

  Yes It touched this item and here it is not just like individual items of buns [TS]

  but if they touch almost anywhere they were shown on the dial pad you see the little ripples appear where you hit the [TS]

  dial pad not just like the one button ripples [TS]

  but where your finger touch of you touched in the upper left of the one a little ripple appears there [TS]

  and I can't decide if this is brilliant or terrible. [TS]

  Part of me that makes you think it might be brilliant is I've seen a lot of people use touch interfaces [TS]

  and not be sure whether their touches are doing anything a grand most of the time it's because they're using a touch [TS]

  device that is not as responsive as. [TS]

  And I always device like say some crazy Android thing where the interface is slow and they'll stab at it a few times [TS]

  or hit the same button multiple times or try it and then pick their finger off [TS]

  and tried again because it didn't register that time that that could not be frustrating for them so if Android is the [TS]

  O.-S. Of choice for underpowered devices would not respond to the U.I. [TS]

  As having having really heavy handed visual feedback to let people know when their touch was registered [TS]

  and where where they where the device thinks they touch and what thing they just selected might be an excellent idea. [TS]

  But on the other hand I think would drive me insane because the whole point of a great a great touch interface is that [TS]

  it should feel like a manipulating like a physical thing scrolling should stick to my finger touching the button should [TS]

  immediately highlighting it like it should be it should be direct manipulation I don't need this indirection [TS]

  but the indirection there because everything is too slow. [TS]

  Then maybe this kind of interface is a good idea [TS]

  but it makes you think is that the world of Android users get used to this eventually in four years whenever he hears [TS]

  interface. [TS]

  They will find a device that does not even have a device a super responsive to be inferior [TS]

  but they were like oh I like the one that shows me where I touched. [TS]

  Does that sound crazy that that would be something that eventually people could latch onto and think is great. [TS]

  No I mean that's I think what we're seeing this year we saw a lot from Apple [TS]

  and I think what Google is has always been doing to some degree and is continuing to do like this. [TS]

  We're seeing the platforms tried a different turn to differentiate themselves further so that they lock people in more [TS]

  effectively because you know not a lot of people Levi less for Android but a lot of people have left [TS]

  and right for i OS and certainly Google wants to stop that [TS]

  and certainly Apple wants to make the reverse less likely to happen in the future. [TS]

  And so you know we're seeing things like like you know Apple building up a whole bunch of hype around things like cloud [TS]

  care [TS]

  and the cloud services you know the things that don't appear in Android Google doing similar things with you know the [TS]

  levels of integration they can get you know what. They can bring up developers to do and now from like that. [TS]

  Certainly it could be it could be if you teach a thing like that it probably probably wasn't I mean it's probably like [TS]

  I'm sure somebody thought about that after they came up a bit [TS]

  and said oh this also has a side benefit of being you know some potential lock [TS]

  and I want to view it as a lock in it just like it's if it's a feature that people like [TS]

  and they come to associate it with like that category of product right in the same way that essentially people came to [TS]

  associate a rectangle with a screen on it as what a smart phone looks like [TS]

  and everyone else had to make rectangular screens on this because as a people thought of a smartphones it I found [TS]

  define the category. [TS]

  Giving people something that they react too strongly that makes them feel comfortable the device makes a device [TS]

  and makes them feel comfortable using device makes if you're familiar [TS]

  and friendly it's not lockin like oh I wish I could leave [TS]

  but I can't because the other devices don't have this feature. [TS]

  It's they like it and they try to go to something else [TS]

  and say I miss I miss that thing I miss the ripples that makes me feel like that they're meant to be able to articulate [TS]

  it. [TS]

  But like it's weird because I like it I think I would hate that feature but I think a lot of people might like it [TS]

  and I think Apple would never do anything like that never never that heavy handed [TS]

  and so Google may have just done something brilliant or people hate it and then Google will like turn it off [TS]

  or no absolute ever use the new you are for the five things that Google makes [TS]

  and it will continue to be crazy fragmented world over there will say I think you're reading way too much into this. [TS]

  Aaron had a touchscreen phone with a slide out keyboard which is not a smartphone it wasn't a Blackberry [TS]

  or anything like that it was just a phone that had a touch screen in a slide out keyboard this is right before she got [TS]

  her first i Phone around the same time I was begging her to let me get her an i Phone [TS]

  but she didn't think was worth it. That's a different discussion for another time. [TS]

  Anyway the point is that thing had tactic feedback in in so far as I think that's right we're going anyway it would [TS]

  vibrate a little bit when you touched it [TS]

  and I believe it like I had a little white spot on the screen where you touch the screen. [TS]

  And she didn't think anything of it [TS]

  and soon as she got her I found that neither of those features air quotes were there [TS]

  but that was so long ago that that phone must've been so awful [TS]

  and so in response of in the vibration is just pointless because of not telling you anything because that plane where [TS]

  you did it [TS]

  but like that's that's a bigger leap from like from pre-i Phone smartphone I have on yet no matter what the old ones [TS]

  had eventually even the physical keyboard to pigeonhole people hold on for the longest time. [TS]

  Eventually it's like I just give up it's you know no more physical keyboards I'd ever was one over there [TS]

  but I think the gap between a modern Android device [TS]

  and a modern i Phone is small enough that this is life especially with all things they kept showing you know they says [TS]

  every year [TS]

  but hey look we made a user interface more responsive venture it's going to be true just because hardware gets better [TS]

  and better and these things everything that showed look pretty darn smooth. [TS]

  So I'm thinking that the gap is small enough that differentiator is like this if they prove popular may be a problem [TS]

  for Apple in terms of getting people to come over just like the big screens are in the same way like the big gigantic [TS]

  screen that we thought oh I don't want everyone is going about people love them they love the big screen. [TS]

  So Apple's essentially forced to field larger screen phones we all assume this fall because that's what people love. [TS]

  You know you're right it's going to be just like the Black Berry keyboard in the millions upon millions of people that [TS]

  are clinging to that. [TS]

  Also real time followup to [TS]

  and I think I might have said tactic I meant haptics of things to the chat room for correcting me. [TS]

  And thank you for the thirty five people that are listening to this after the fact in a verty emailed me to correct me [TS]

  I thought you meant tactile. But anyway that's who I think I think I kind of combine those on my head. [TS]

  But anyways we're also sponsored by our friends at Lynda L Y N D A dot com Going to Lynda dot com slash eighty P. [TS]

  To learn more. [TS]

  Lynda dot com helps you learning keep up to date with your software pick up brand new skills [TS]

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  Now because you unlimited access to the entire Lynda dot com library just twenty five bucks a month for unlimited [TS]

  access. So they have all sorts of things. They have things like programming languages. You can learn P.H.P. [TS]

  If you really want to. I would advise against it but you can do it because it's much easier than the node K.Z. [TS]

  Because my P.H.P. Shabat stayed up. [TS]

  It's easier to create something functional it's not even something that's not actually learned. OK. [TS]

  If you want to learn note you can do that too. You can even learn Perl if you're completely crazy. [TS]

  And if you otherwise you want to learn the applications you can learn some of the Adobe Creative Class apps you know do [TS]

  we get released updates to the Creative Cloud so if a new with new versions of their apps like Photoshop [TS]

  and Illustrator and stuff like that. [TS]

  Lynda dot com works with software companies to get you updated video training the same time that the updated versions [TS]

  are released so they probably I haven't checked [TS]

  but they probably already have all the new Adobe stuff up there already. [TS]

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  Go into the logic stuff and see it's really cool they have [TS]

  and they even have a stuff on podcasting if you don't want to use logic they have a huge library so these courses are [TS]

  produced by professionals at the top of their field [TS]

  and you can watch them anywhere you can watch them on on your computer on your tablet your mobile device [TS]

  and they're broken into these bite sized pieces so you can if you only have fifteen minutes at a time to watch [TS]

  something you can do that you can watch a fifteen minute chunk as you're watching the transcripts close by on the side [TS]

  and you can click to different point in the transcript it will jump to that point in the video. [TS]

  So it's very easy to find what you need to skim to pause to slow down to go back. [TS]

  If you miss something or you want some clarification that's the presentation here is simply. [TS]

  So check it out you can get a seven day free trial by going to L Y N.B.A. Dot com slash A.T.P. [TS]

  That is Linda with a wider consular A.T.P. [TS]

  Thanks a lot to Linda for sponsoring our show once again we need to get Apple to send Linda dot com because I would [TS]

  love to be able to click on the spot [TS]

  and a transcript of Apple's got the transcripts right I'm Is that guy who took the transcript I made that ASCII W.D.C. [TS]

  Site where you can search them. [TS]

  Yeah I just need to put it all together Linda spyware the transcript on the left the video on the Right Whale The click [TS]

  on the trends for brevity. This by the video that would make my life so much easier. [TS]

  Oh yeah like I was thinking I would have been like noodling in my head. [TS]

  Another idea never can do I would love to just make an app just make like probably a mac app that it would be like [TS]

  you're watching videos and it would you know you could like you know Star the ones you want to watch. [TS]

  It would keep track of the ones you did watch. You could search you know search for topic search for A P I's the W. [TS]

  Everything. [TS]

  Now but yeah the official app keeps track of what you want to keep track and playback position across devices. [TS]

  You know really well I guess only if you watch in the app I don't ever drive. Yeah. [TS]

  Crap I will not make it but it doesn't do the transcript thing as I'm saying as an ex that. [TS]

  Yeah like why why can you take command and go right to something like you browse the titles [TS]

  and figure what they call the you know the ability section this year like one of the call that you know that's one note [TS]

  taking is still a big thing for me because the slides have like seven words on them [TS]

  and the person onstage speaks important information that's not in the slides [TS]

  and it was a particularly bad this year I thought where all the real information misspoke [TS]

  and it wasn't even like hinted at in the slides the slide would have like one word on [TS]

  and then a guy would talk for ten minutes like oh this is the stop so I had to write that that you can't run I can't [TS]

  for research purposes I can't go back to the video [TS]

  and watch it in real time to visit takes forever I have to have the notes budget of into the one thing that's extra [TS]

  really valuable with watching these videos is the variable speed playback in quick time player seven [TS]

  and I'm probably like we'll see everything else but I think with time X. Does not do it. [TS]

  But so you can you know it just like just like a podcast you can play these videos at like one point five. [TS]

  And it helps a lot because the B.B.C. [TS]

  Sessions are pretty slowly paced because you know they want everyone in a room full of people many of whom it was not [TS]

  their first language. [TS]

  They want everyone to understand it and to keep you know to keep up and you know in a giant room [TS]

  and that's very different than watching a video at home [TS]

  and especially if you're like if you're like looking for something specific [TS]

  or waiting something specific that you know the mention of that you can be might have mentioned you want like skip [TS]

  around a bit and play through sections fast and it's it's so nice to be able to do that. [TS]

  Member the Earlier I said I wasn't making fun of Google's inability to presentations is not a productive avenue [TS]

  but since we're talking about the most obscure out of the way in the tiny little room in the corner of Moscone about [TS]

  some A.P.I. [TS]

  and Framework that nobody uses except ten people that person's presentation [TS]

  and demos were better than everything in Google I O. [TS]

  Is there an engineer who is not a professional presenter [TS]

  and you see at the very least goes through some sort of regime where they make them make your slides comprehensible to [TS]

  the point where they work on everything they say where they make sure the demos are tight or they get them done [TS]

  and it just amazes me how the Google I O. Presenter is for the most part did not even get the basics right. [TS]

  The Ramble the slides had too much stuff on them they tried demos that didn't work well even of the demos had worked [TS]

  well they weren't be demonstrating anything worth demonstrating it was not a good showing. [TS]

  I mean I don't think that's important except for in the sort of you know fun giggly Twitter snark type nature of the [TS]

  thing but it's at a certain point Google should get better at that. Do you think they really care. [TS]

  They do they're trying or you can tell the early part of the presentation I thought were together like [TS]

  when there was a name Sunday are I can't remember the last names of the P. [TS]

  when He was up there talking about Android the slides had bullet points that were important he would address each one [TS]

  of them that wasn't too much going on like it was it was straight forward and to the point [TS]

  but it just started meandering and things started going wrong. [TS]

  I guess that even if every demo that he got wrong began perfectly I still don't think those are the right demos to have [TS]

  especially not making out a real time follow up from Sam the geek in the chat room apparently quick time player X. [TS]

  Does have variable speed playback. [TS]

  It's in the discovery of the discovery of this in of option clicking the fast forward button. [TS]

  Yet how does anybody even know that I have no idea I saw underscore do it on the plane [TS]

  and I was like Wait how did that just happen [TS]

  and they had to show me that because like you said I had no idea what it was for template X. [TS]

  and Have the most important feature which is get the freaking control over my video of the most important feature not. [TS]

  missing. I've got time player seven installed and that's what I still use. Is there anything else on Google I O. [TS]

  They say sixty frames per second this year. They also say this year is the year of desktop Linux. [TS]

  Right and Duke Nukem Forever finally came out. You actually do it and then Android T.V. [TS]

  Iteration nine is here and so that's going to set the world aflame. [TS]

  I mean eventually they're going to have to you know get those and some T.V.'s I mean. Man the previous Google T.V. [TS]

  and Somebody in a chat I'm sorry I forgot who it's too far to scroll now [TS]

  but some of the chap pointed out like it's kind of confusing with the branding between likely What's Google what's [TS]

  Android what's Chrome you know they have [TS]

  and you know John you mentioned earlier that Google is better at having this like cohesive cross device experience [TS]

  and honestly I don't think that's the case I mean if you look at things like you know the chrome cast and crew books [TS]

  and versus Android versus Google services like it's pretty fragmented actually the naming of the things is bad [TS]

  but first of all if you're just comparing it to Apple which is what I'm doing. They went on T.V. [TS]

  Because Apple doesn't have a way for third parties to do anything on T.V. [TS]

  So the who wins by default right even if you're not going like that I think also Google's interface is they showed on [TS]

  the television a better than I believe want to dabble T.V. Is not a platform for anybody except us. [TS]

  So I have or selected a partner so they were in there and the second thing is Apple. [TS]

  Google's big thing is web apps and stuff and so that's their you know that's their platform [TS]

  and they are likely making it about to better. [TS]

  But they're working hard to make you know like this new you why for example is available to web apps at sixty pamper [TS]

  seconds in Chrome [TS]

  and chrome runs on all of their devices from the chrome books to you can write it on your phone you can run your tablet [TS]

  it runs on your television. Like that's their unifying force. [TS]

  An android runs on most of these things half of the chrome books [TS]

  but their whole thing is where the native app doesn't matter it's going to look at same with comes from Google were [TS]

  telling you that we think is going to perform the same as if the French was like an animation. [TS]

  That's their strategy [TS]

  and I give him the win over Apple because Apple has nothing on television except for this box that only does like to do [TS]

  things [TS]

  and they don't just don't have that unification across levels like I said the I was always ten split is going to get a [TS]

  lot better in Yosemite and Iowa State but that's not quite here yet. [TS]

  But even there that split is much larger than the split between I think the Chrome OS [TS]

  and Android simply because Google is a web company and their whole big thing is whether apps [TS]

  and they shouldn't they shouldn't be second class citizens to Native out they continue to be [TS]

  but Google is really hammering on making that not be the case [TS]

  and if it's going to be the case somewhere in the first place is going to not be like that is on Google's platforms [TS]

  because it was highly motivated to make web apps feel [TS]

  and look just as good as native apps you know something we skipped before we leave Google I was apparently G.-Mail has [TS]

  a rest for A.P.I. Now. Yeah I put I put them in the notes because I was freaking out about it. [TS]

  Everyone's freaking out saying that this is going to replace I'm mad and I'm very I'm the first person to say that. [TS]

  Yeah I would not I would not assume the G. [TS]

  Mail I mapped support will be there for very much longer in fact I made a prediction. [TS]

  I forget exactly what time interval I said I think within two or five years I was pretty sure that that cow there [TS]

  and you know I'm Apple both be discontinued or sunset or whatever whatever phrase they would use but [TS]

  but they say I know. [TS]

  With this particular case of the dream I know that Google has actually explicitly said this is not supposed to replace [TS]

  I map exactly right of course they can they can say whatever they want [TS]

  but I think in this case they're probably telling the truth that they probably don't attend didn't send them to replace [TS]

  him. [TS]

  What this probably will do though is maybe hasten the the ability from the suit to see new map in a in a marketable way [TS]

  because they hate our map access they really do they they I'm sure they can't wait to get rid of it. [TS]

  I mean there's really like if you think about every all the ways that that that Google operates makes money innovates [TS]

  in G. [TS]

  Mail and I Matt have never gotten along very well it's not supported even though it's been pretty flaky [TS]

  and unreliable and slow [TS]

  and very limited because a lot of e-mails features just don't fit in the model of what I map is [TS]

  and how a map has to represent the mailboxes and everything and those like the hack of like the messages mailbox [TS]

  and all sorts of crazy stuff that just it just causes problems. [TS]

  And so you say all that and I know that there's some amount of truth there but I used a Google Apps for my domain [TS]

  and I use i Map and maybe I'm just not a G. Mail power user but I almost never have any problems. [TS]

  I really don't [TS]

  and I agree with you that that it's contrary encounter to the way they make money which is for me to be on the Web site [TS]

  looking at their ads but I'm never on the Web site. All I very rarely on the Web site anyone the G. [TS]

  Mail web site because I have no particular need for it. [TS]

  I don't particularly fancy the web interface I know either Last I heard John I know you do and that's fine [TS]

  but I am just fine with the I.R.S. [TS]

  Mail app I'm just fine with mailbox on the mac and I do use I'm after constantly for Google Apps [TS]

  and I really don't have any big problems. [TS]

  I think like Margo said I'm out as never been a good fit for the way Google does email I'll search. [TS]

  So like when I first saw his A.P. [TS]

  I was excited because of what I thought it meant was that cool if I get a ring of I'm up [TS]

  and I think the reason Google should get rid of my map like [TS]

  or you know slowly phase it out is not to like cut off third party clients [TS]

  or whatever in fact that's the reason they'll probably have to keep it around forever just if they want to continue to [TS]

  support like you know customers and clients and use I'm up [TS]

  but just because it's a poor fit for their for their mail service their mail acts in a different way than I.M.F. [TS]

  Expects mail to act and I like the way G. [TS]

  Mail acts I was like All right well so fine keep I have around for the legacy clients make a new fancier A.P.I. [TS]

  That works the way G. [TS]

  Mail works and you know they thought make it faster make it not just a better match semantically [TS]

  but make you feel to do things with you know higher performance like search or bulk operations [TS]

  and all this good stuff but then I would have documentation [TS]

  and in the first couple paragraphs a diagram they had says no to the G M L A B I should not be used to replace I'm out [TS]

  for a full fledged email client access so that's straightforward right there in the very first thing in the nation. [TS]

  If you're writing what they consider it what they call a full fledged email client don't use this you sign up so that's [TS]

  a shame like the now just like oh this is just a way for applications that want to do something with mail to be able to [TS]

  send mail through your G. [TS]

  Mail account it is nice because you can only you can only ask for permission to send not to read [TS]

  and then you can send out through G.-Mail using his A.P.I. [TS]

  Instead of doing you know like I think it's a good idea to have his A.P.I. [TS]

  but It becomes much less interesting [TS]

  when they're saying right out it is not for making an email client so that that alone means that I'm out has to either [TS]

  I'm happy to stay around for a much longer time or eventually Google phaseout I'm out [TS]

  and says no you have to go through the web U.I. [TS]

  but It's I think it would be difficult for Apple for Google to go back [TS]

  and I'm out at this point you know this is this is kind of a left turn here [TS]

  and I I hadn't thought of that you thought the other day you look at things like you know the proliferation of apps [TS]

  taking over from web sites for where modern interaction and computing is really happening. These days. [TS]

  Combine that with Android with its intense Windows eight with its contract [TS]

  and now Iowa with its extension system our A.P.I. Is necessary anymore. Yes Why. [TS]

  Because I mean for Web services if you if you want to interact with something that's not on the same device as you are [TS]

  like you could be the eyes for things like everyday reading Twitter posting to Twitter getting email [TS]

  or any of the existing native code systems for allowing one application on the same machine to communicate to another [TS]

  don't apply to I mean like that's the unifying principle of Google is that they would instead say the opposite. [TS]

  And like everything should be like a web app [TS]

  and everything should communicate to restfully be eyes even its on the same machine [TS]

  and really it shouldn't matter where you think it's hosting it everything should all be the web and blah blah blah. [TS]

  That's obviously not the path that Apple is going down or aura or Google that matter for Android [TS]

  but if you guys are definitely still a thing both remote and local. [TS]

  Well think about how many of those others just mentioned certainly you know there's going to be some that that can't be [TS]

  done this way but think about how many of the things you just mentioned could be like rather than call in the P.R.I. [TS]

  Just you know the user will probably have a G. [TS]

  Mail app on their phone because they used e-mail so just because of the G. [TS]

  Mail app and have it do something and then you know keep back to you or whatever. What is the G. [TS]

  Mail app do it calls to him politely I can see mail servers are on the other side of the connection. [TS]

  Well sure I mean public A.P.I. Is obviously like public web service A.P.I. [TS]

  As our you know our do really need to be a major thing anymore like you know could you possibly launch a new web. [TS]

  service today where you know that has some kind of social everything without an A.P.I. [TS]

  I mean people do all the time but like how far can you go without having a P.R. [TS]

  And are we at a point now where having an A.P.I. Is the exception not the rule. [TS]

  Because you know five or ten years ago everything had to have an A.P.I. That was what people do. [TS]

  Then you wouldn't you wouldn't become big if you didn't have an A.P.I. [TS]

  As of yet still true though like Twitter is a great example which got big based on an analysis [TS]

  and a cut everybody off from it. But they wouldn't of gotten big without the A.P.I. [TS]

  So I don't know I think that avenue to getting big bike I think is still required to get big. [TS]

  No if you if you if you have some great thing that you say but there's no A.B.I. [TS]

  but We've made selective private libraries that use an A.P.I. [TS]

  That you're not allowed to use and you can put those libraries [TS]

  or apps on your devices in kind of like I don't think you get big like that. [TS]

  It would be like not being free in the beginning and charging everybody down to money. [TS]

  I think the tractor to get big is to try to at least make a show of look where part of the community [TS]

  and you can enter operate with us may have this great A.P.I. [TS]

  and Really encouraging people to build on your yeah sure if you've got a service [TS]

  and we've got a service we can to our servers you talk to each other we should integrated be great we'll have these [TS]

  great synergies and then when you get bigger and you can start turning the screws and cutting everybody off [TS]

  and charging money for a guy accessing all those wonderful things that we love to hate. [TS]

  So are you saying Marco that let's take an example that you're in a Twitter app [TS]

  and let's take Instagram perhaps you're an Instagram and you want to tag a photo with a location [TS]

  and you want to do that using the Foursquare A.P.I. [TS]

  Rather than have some sort of a view within the Instagram app you could dump out to the Foursquare extension that lets [TS]

  you search and then the Foursquare's extension will take the location you've selected [TS]

  and punted back to Instagram is that sort of what you're in visioning. [TS]

  Basically yeah like I'm looking at this from the perspective not of you know what's best for everybody technically [TS]

  but what's most likely to be best for everyone business wise and one of the most likely to do [TS]

  and you know you can look you know John you know what you just said about how if you have a kind of requirement for a [TS]

  good growth I'm not sure that's true anymore I mean look at look at big servers of that of launch like in the last five [TS]

  years. Many of them don't have an A.P.I. Many of them launched without one and now. [TS]

  Have one that's kind of half that half assed Arab [TS]

  or even like extremely restricted like even Google Plus Google phone service I mean that's not a good example because [TS]

  you know kind of failed but even Google plus launched with a very limited read only A.P.I. [TS]

  and If it didn't even didn't even have that first. Anyway I know when they launched the A.P.I. [TS]

  What it was at launch not when they launched the A.P.I. [TS]

  Was read only and I think it might still be Instagram pervert example got huge and they had a very limited A.P.I. [TS]

  That I believe was usually read only for almost everybody. [TS]

  The beginning [TS]

  and it's easy you know if you guys have a big problem this is the problem Twitter faced which is it's becomes very hard [TS]

  to monetize. [TS]

  If you become a dumb pipe unless you do you know sometimes you can do creepy things [TS]

  but for the most part like if you if people if your A.P.R. [TS]

  Is mostly an accessory to your service and people still keep coming to you and using your apps [TS]

  and your web site for the primary interaction with your service that's fine but if the A.P.I. [TS]

  Becomes your service and people are really only interacting with you through the A.P.I. [TS]

  It's very challenging to run a business that way for certain biz miles and certainly anything for you to add based [TS]

  and so you know I think we can look back at the Golden Era of web as in like the mid two thousand [TS]

  when everything had an A.B.R. and Everyone was talking about them as being like the big requirement. [TS]

  We can look back at that time [TS]

  and we can say you know actually in retrospect that was kind of a problem a lot of the work that used to be like free [TS]

  and naive are now like super lockdown unlimited [TS]

  and it's pretty easy to see that that was kind of giving away too much of a farm whereas now I'm sorry from the mixing [TS]

  metaphors there. [TS]

  Whereas now we have this other way where you the service provider can have these apps on these different platforms the [TS]

  only you don't need to cover that many of them you can't is actually different platforms that all have these ways to [TS]

  kind of offer A.P.I. Like services to other apps without actually giving up the farm or actual. [TS]

  It's not much control and [TS]

  and you know we're keeping everything locked down in private for the most part behind the scenes. [TS]

  Well there's a line between not having an A.P.I. and Having and becoming an A.B.I. Only pipe. [TS]

  Again we see that we see a Twitter [TS]

  and that continues in the beginning was like yeah sure everybody builds on Twitter everyone make your own crazy clients [TS]

  we want all sorts of different clients we want you know any place you can talk to where you are at the I'll do [TS]

  and then they you know becoming the most people interaction with Twitter was not through anything as what are [TS]

  controlled. That's one extreme but the other team is not having won it all. Twitter still has an A.P.I. [TS]

  Right at the very least they would have some kind of A.P.I. [TS]

  For like embedding tweets and putting little controls and buttons I mean the you know I thought maybe the public A.P.I. [TS]

  Put this mark down on your page. Supposed to this U.R.L. [TS]

  Make these buttons run this javascript like there has to be an A.P.I. [TS]

  Just doesn't have to be like you want to encourage people to integrate with your product. [TS]

  You don't necessarily want to encourage people to become your product and so I think the A.P.I. [TS]

  Use people have learned you know like you said don't become Don't become a faceless A.B.I. [TS]

  Given you become app that net right. [TS]

  Don't let everyone else to find experience of using your product it's the same way as like Apple you know taking [TS]

  control instead of tools. [TS]

  Don't let code mentor works in code [TS]

  or you're in power plant become the face of your platform because then you've lost control [TS]

  but I think you have to have some kind of web based A.P.I. [TS]

  If you want to interoperate with the wider world because you're never going to hit every platform [TS]

  and realistically speaking the little libraries [TS]

  and apps that you make for all the different platforms are going to have to be hitting A.P.I. [TS]

  Anyway and if they can hit it then other people are going to hit it. [TS]

  Do you really want to get into some kind of son of security war about having secret A.P.I. [TS]

  Endpoints that people have to figure out how to hack into and so this is going to use a lot [TS]

  or something anyway anyone can do it you know it's just a matter of getting an A.P.I. Key in an extract. [TS]

  I think a P.R.S. [TS]

  Will still be here but I think you're right that the lesson has been learned by several people in a painful way. [TS]

  Don't make your A.P.I. The only thing you offer because another people will become your product for you. [TS]

  But it's not so bad I mean they're sponsored posts and Instagram and Twitter and whatnot. [TS]

  I haven't seen them pushed on me and tweet about for example [TS]

  but there's nothing stopping them from being pushed on the right I think we're in the minority of people who are not [TS]

  using the official crazy as it is for us to drink about. [TS]

  Now you're right that we don't use the official Twitter app [TS]

  but I bet it would you say Were you think most people who use Twitter at all use the official Twitter app [TS]

  and a lot of alliances. No question. And like we are an oddity because we were there early. [TS]

  We don't look at Twitter that way [TS]

  and Twitter started to his credit has been like OK you know they shut the door on us we are in a little room together [TS]

  with our limited A.B.I. [TS]

  Talking from the address they were there in the beginning and no one bothers us [TS]

  and they just don't have to worry about us [TS]

  and all our growth is with those other people they could have said you know what third party stuff is turned off now [TS]

  you have to use these official client [TS]

  and I don't think it actually would have hurt them that much because all of us would have left in the past. [TS]

  Maybe the problem is all of us might have like hold on that thought an addon actually made that a viable platform [TS]

  or something but in the grand scheme of things we don't matter [TS]

  and so I'm glad that Twitter is not shoving stupid crap that Arthur our throats [TS]

  but I'm kind of sad that like we're never going to get like multiple images or these are the features they're adding [TS]

  and now I think that that really gets into the country [TS]

  but not as I thought it was even available to third party clients you could view multiple images [TS]

  and if you can post them now or anywhere they they're adding features [TS]

  and they don't care of third party if it's available for their places they're already won [TS]

  and so it doesn't surprise me that they're not making us choke down ads because who cares about us for often a car [TS]

  somewhere and it's probably the best move them not to anger us anymore and US Laos to stew in our [TS]

  and our little private third party Twitter clients. [TS]

  All right anything else we need to talk about there's a little bit of talk that we kind of skipped over about swift an [TS]

  apple I think Johnson's mostly your do you want to touch on that. [TS]

  Actually I want to talk about art briefly first before the swift thing of art was. [TS]

  When the thing Art is not a new thing it's something that the interesting Kit Kat [TS]

  but now it's official for their new US This will be their new runtime that they're using instead of the previous dial [TS]

  the virtual machine. This is them refining. I mean not the them saying this is their answer to swift and i O. S. [TS]

  and The A seven all that stuff [TS]

  but they're feeling pressure to have a more performant less battery sucking engine underneath their platform so that [TS]

  the language they use is Java for development they had their own job of virtual machine that they wrote themselves [TS]

  but just kind of novel called Tao that they've had for many many years. [TS]

  This new one is a new virtual machine that is better about memory management [TS]

  and has fewer stalls for garbage collection shorter stalls for garbage collection produces better code that runs faster [TS]

  on all the C.P.U. As they target I think that arm X. [TS]

  Eighty six and MIPS and they showed a bunch of performance figures showing how this is better. [TS]

  So I'm glad to see that Google is making progress on sort of the fundamental lowest level of that platform to make [TS]

  their applications faster [TS]

  and it shows the advantages that they have of you know having a merry face language in a virtual machine in that this [TS]

  change just really radical change under the cover does not require any changes. [TS]

  And anyone who wrote their application using Java you know if user a guy wrote thing you don't have to know [TS]

  or care about it they just major runtime faster whereas compare this to Apple which is made the object of C. [TS]

  Runtime faster. [TS]

  Many times over but you know we had the reeling your app against it [TS]

  or use certain features like faster numeration you had to change your source code to use them. [TS]

  I guess you know the name because you must send every gets a benefit when they re compile against new libraries [TS]

  but then it was only available six or seven blah blah blah. [TS]

  Anyway I'm glad to see Google making progress there mostly because I like the idea of virtual machine based languages I [TS]

  guess I'll probably have more to say about that [TS]

  when I do this with a section of my Osteria Hauser coming back away slowly. So is slowly and painfully. [TS]

  Thanks a lot two or three sponsors this week raise labs Squarespace and Linda dot com and we'll see you next week. [TS]

  The show is over to be an accidental accidental death was accidental [TS]

  and she is now sitting on the screen as it says to that list and that said they were going to for this one thing [TS]

  and be for the song. You know you can tell how unprofessional we are because here it is I Q Up John to talk about a. [TS]

  He talks about B. and Then before we get back to a can if in the after show you can be like follow down. [TS]

  I mean I just as a reward for the people people are things just on topic but hey you've made it through the song [TS]

  and here we are on the other side. This is your. [TS]

  Yeah it was something I was been thinking about since the Via really see about how Apple is being more open with things [TS]

  and I've seen things from apples and stuff that I had not seen from Apple in years and years [TS]

  and years maybe not ever in the second. Steve Jobs are like after ninety seven and that. [TS]

  There is the phenomenon of Apple employees saying in a more [TS]

  or less official capacity something that Apple is going to do in the future. [TS]

  There we saw that today which I think you're about to bring up right and not just today I've seen it many many times [TS]

  and studied every see that one just and I keep seeing it was blowing my mind. [TS]

  The one today was like my gas did a blog post about Swift. [TS]

  Chris Lander responded to the blog post [TS]

  and said that thing you were complaining about were going to change that which is basically talking about an announced [TS]

  product [TS]

  and I've seen that multiple times about you know nerdy technology is not like oh we're going to watch like going to [TS]

  going to say that red button of about thirty technologies only developers care about the developers are willing to say [TS]

  like oh yeah that idea doesn't exist or whatever but we're going to make it like we're going to do is that before G.M. [TS]

  or That feature you asked for. We're doing that right now. Not sure when it's going to be done. [TS]

  That's you know Apple does not come in a future products [TS]

  but apparently Apple now comments on future technologies being open and you won't be able to watch the videos [TS]

  and actual Apple engineers saying that you know this is not exciting [TS]

  or surprising to anyone who deals in the company of Apple [TS]

  but historically Apple engineers would never say that even like the most obscure little thing like I think this [TS]

  argument of this method should accept no and it shouldn't be an error and you just have to sit there [TS]

  and wait until venture like your bug was closed or just a release comes out and that's in the release notes [TS]

  and said Today Apple and Apple engineer will say yeah we're in the process of doing that it will be in the next build. [TS]

  I guess that has happened to some degree like on the day of forms and pass bills and stuff like that [TS]

  but this is about something big like Swift is bigger than just one obscure A.P.I. [TS]

  So if there's a whole language [TS]

  and on the deformed For example people are complaining about missing features in a Swiss language [TS]

  and people you know who are writing so if they're coming in today for them saying You write that feature is missing [TS]

  we're adding it now it will be there soon. [TS]

  Like talking about future products is blowing my mind this is happening at any second acts like a black. [TS]

  Helicopter to come in and like close the thread and delete the post and nuclear we think [TS]

  and you know so let's form sort of acting on it N.D.A. Which I wasn't a violent talk about details. [TS]

  This is on a public blog post if it was a thing that he was talking about [TS]

  and there was a race of medics being crazy which they are I mean it was vague it was like we know they're crazy. [TS]

  We're going to try to fix it. [TS]

  Jake thumbs up say without that part of the world [TS]

  and you know like if we don't mix it is ever going to go on I was well I totally expected you to fix the crazy race [TS]

  semantics when you saw that comment on a blog post [TS]

  but you didn't think that I hate you Apple like that's that that's the thing they're protecting against [TS]

  and I suppose that can happen if you're seventy ships and I was eight ships [TS]

  and so if there is a manifesto crazy pants then people are going to like site that blog so we can't trust you after you [TS]

  say things with and don't do them I don't know I just assume they're just going to do it and everything will be fine [TS]

  but it is definitely weird to see that and definitely change for Apple. So what's the downside to it for them. [TS]

  I just said the downside downside is if they don't do this thing then crazy people be O'Grady [TS]

  but is that really why they didn't do it for all this time I mean. [TS]

  Yeah because you can't predict the future you don't do across time because if they say something [TS]

  and they're not able to deliver it it breaks trust so they just say nothing I guess [TS]

  but to your point about like developer tools that are coming years like I just I don't I don't really see the need for [TS]

  all the secrecy up until this point I applaud the opening up that they've been doing lately [TS]

  but I don't know it just seems like a pretty weak reason to be so unbelievably secretive. [TS]

  It seems to me like the reason they were secretive is because they felt like it was cool to be secretive if you're [TS]

  secretive about products you can be secretive about everything it's not just about the cool factor [TS]

  but it's you know someone is put in the child room under promise [TS]

  and over deliver it's it's the safe bet you will have you'll not disappoint people you only surprise them because you [TS]

  only disappoint somebody said by so. [TS]

  When you're going to something and not doing it if you never say anything and you don't do it. [TS]

  You don't disappoint a member they should have had no reason to expect that you were going to do something [TS]

  but if you say you're going to something and don't do it then people are disappointed. [TS]

  But is that really true I mean Martin I know the market isn't really the best judge of anything. [TS]

  However you know any time Apple doesn't release a T.V. [TS]

  Viewers are watching the market has a fit about it and they've never said anything about doing any of those things. [TS]

  That's I think a counter-example because can cook up saying we're going to enter a new product category so yes it is he [TS]

  says that like a year ago every time Apple does anything it doesn't enter a new product category. [TS]

  You know people's use center a new product category and you did something anything [TS]

  and the thing involved in that did not enter a new product category therefore age you know Apple who cares like this is [TS]

  more of the larger the feature the less you'd want to say stuff like this like you know if you're talking about like [TS]

  this this A.P.I. [TS]

  Is is available but it's Iowa seven only [TS]

  and if someone from Apple were to say Actually we're going to back port that is Iowa six to people that like oh yeah [TS]

  that's awesome I can't wait until that happens my app will be able to run and I was six and seven uses cool new A.P.I. [TS]

  and Then like the O. S. [TS]

  Comes out and says Sorry we didn't get time to back or that I was six and now we're never going to. [TS]

  People would hate Apple that all you said you were going to I plan my business around you. [TS]

  You know destroyed my livelihood zone or if they just say nothing [TS]

  and they say file bugs you like to see them as I was six [TS]

  or whatever you know they don't make any promises they just don't say anything you say. [TS]

  If you every time you ask them a question I say the same developer I was seven. [TS]

  But it's going to be on I was six guys available or I was seven I guess the old Apple way [TS]

  and there are serious upsides to that but at a certain point becomes ridiculous as you get tinier [TS]

  and tinier like are you going to fix a typo in the documentation. [TS]

  It's no skin off Apple's back to say yes we're going to fix that type of documentation in fact I'm fixing right now you [TS]

  should see it in the next build like that's always been under the line like no big deal [TS]

  but once you move from typos up until you know A.P.I. Features A.P.I. Availability language. [TS]

  Teachers that's starting to get into some serious territory and you know this is this the new Apple i think [TS]

  and I applaud it and I think Marco would say one of us had said break before D.C. [TS]

  That we didn't really know crap about what was coming when we knew Health Kit which we thought was health book [TS]

  and there were like one or two other things but certainly nobody knew Swift was coming [TS]

  and that made it so much more enjoyable I'm not saying Apple shouldn't be secretive about like product launches I'm [TS]

  talking like your like you are John about this and I mean you sure but perhaps it isn't [TS]

  but stuff that for the most part really isn't going to make or break anyone [TS]

  and yes you know you just you just had an example of where it could break someone [TS]

  but I don't I'm I'm surprised it took this long for them to open up the continuum like the one I think I'm also a sixty [TS]

  four bit carbon which they said they were going to have and then change their mind on [TS]

  and that's like a bummer like it wasn't it wasn't like they didn't have it almost all done. [TS]

  Is my understanding and it was like that and plan on doing it. They did plan on doing it. [TS]

  They did say they were going to do it but they changed their mind the next year [TS]

  and that did really seriously affect people [TS]

  and you know secrecy would've saved them there because I was sort of sort of like they said they said that they're [TS]

  going to have over us ten ten ten and I was eight. [TS]

  Those are speaking about future products [TS]

  but we assume those will actually arrive that they want to you know never mind about I was eight. [TS]

  Like that seems like a safe bet [TS]

  but technically it's exactly the same things we do not have this for you now it is not completed but we will [TS]

  and making a comment about a feature and like saying we we agree that the race semantics are stupid [TS]

  but we are working on them [TS]

  and we plan to have the better version of them available before any of our whatever operating system ship. [TS]

  That's a pretty concrete statement about something that's going to happen. [TS]

  It's probably not much more concrete than saying Iowa State is coming in we're going to ship it [TS]

  and here is the rough time frame [TS]

  but it is definitely a change like Normally they would just let the blog's all complain about stuff and swift and. [TS]

  I secretly be over there saying all these people are complaining about you know feature X. [TS]

  Whereas we know the project has been checked in two weeks ago and we're just like testing it out now and it'll ship [TS]

  and exceed among those people who pleasantly surprised but now those people who actually go on to the Internet [TS]

  and tweeted the people like I just totally did that don't worry it's coming. [TS]

  And what else going on I think there's a M three at the local dealer I haven't actually gone by [TS]

  but I was not because my car's actually gone on Monday anyway so I'll see it on and then I'll probably steal it [TS]

  and get arrested not only the end of A.T.P. We keep doing it with you in jail. [TS]

  All I know is I want to them through that. Sorry Luigi follow only the Ferrari. [TS]

  What I didn't do my pop culture references I stuck it in the bin. Now that's in the movie a million. [TS]

  Margot has children and soon Casey will too. [TS]

  A million times I know every line in that movie because I've seen it a million times you want to scream it from the [TS]

  tops of those very high you see I was going to say that. [TS]

  How could that movie possibly get old but I know enough to know that any movie can break [TS]

  and well it's actually a pretty good movie I mean that's that's that's that's one of the reasons why adults love Pixar [TS]

  movies so much is because if your kids are going to make you watch the same movie every single day for three months it [TS]

  will be a pretty decent one. Yeah you know you don't know how bad it can get. [TS]

  Like I mean you're probably protecting yourself from it I thing is like cars people say is not one of the better Pixar [TS]

  movies and maybe I kind of agree there [TS]

  but lots of people who don't have kids dislike it much more than I do because now in retrospect the memory of course is [TS]

  entirely tied up with the memory of my son when he was young in Washington movie a lot [TS]

  and I think the same thing will happen to Marco [TS]

  and that that gives the movie a fondness that it would have had if you had just seen it on your own. [TS]

  Just wait until now to get older and he remember when he was a little peanut and he would watch the movie over [TS]

  and over again. I love cars cars two was freaking terrible though I haven't seen cars. [TS]

  Two because I heard it was terrible so I I'm just like I'm not I'm not even buying that an Apple T.V. [TS]

  and Is leaving it off don't do it and the worst part is Michael Caine isn't it. [TS]

  And I love Michael Caine but the movie was still terrible. [TS]

  Well it's not terrible I do you don't know terrible until you see him like Dora the Explorer [TS]

  or something like that I mean terrible does the whole other thing the movies just says there are right now. [TS]

  That's right let's put that one in the parking lot for you know exactly where you want two titles on one of the [TS]

  functional shoebox which means not mine. Yeah I have put that in the parking lot for now. [TS]

  Confess that this is a business speak terminology but I can't. [TS]

  Like what planet is everyone on Marco to put things in perspective. I went to a client today at what time was it. [TS]

  About nine for a ten o'clock demo that demo lasted half an hour. [TS]

  I spent half an hour dealing with security related things because it's a new client so I had to get fingerprinted. [TS]

  I had to go swear that I had antivirus on my computer that I needed to prove that I antivirus on my computer. [TS]

  Then we spent from eleven thirty five in consecutive meetings talking about the work that has been done in the work [TS]

  that needs to be done. [TS]

  My god that was from eleven thirty until five in the evening [TS]

  when the screamer fall standoffs happen is actually the end of. [TS]

  So it was a retrospective which is part of agile and then it was Sprint planning which is part of agile. [TS]

  But the problem is this is for a large government entity [TS]

  and I don't think most of the business people in the room that these are our own internal business people have had a [TS]

  lot of experience with like doing strong agile software projects. [TS]

  And so it's really kind of scrum or fall at best and that's just bad. But anyway so. Back to titles. [TS]

  Did they have a parking lot. [TS]

  No not today actually but a basement is there do you like put things in the basement [TS]

  and over you know just a parking lot but you know back behind the dumpster like is there. [TS]

  No the alley is there an alley even though you can't like throw something at the fire escape. [TS]

  No Marco you got the same metaphor that I was developing basement U.I. You know speaking of basements. [TS]

  Same same stuff the hamburger basement metaphor. [TS]

  Exactly the same exact thing why is that terminology OK with this terminology is not because we are right now that is [TS]

  most market statement ever heard in my defense I don't like the hamburger basement metaphor [TS]

  but you use it because it's a way to communicate with other people a shorthand. [TS]

  So exactly when buzzwords and lingo are supposed to do that you can say this [TS]

  and then be sure that everyone who you're talking to knows what you mean without you having to explain it the long way [TS]

  and there was there was some time where it where I mentioned hamburger basement on Twitter a few months back [TS]

  and I got the best responses from people who didn't know what that was and there [TS]

  and there they were filling your role now saying is there now only Bubble Ball Game. [TS]

  I actually liked breaking bots I think that's I don't think it should necessarily be a show title [TS]

  but it's pretty funny. I'm also a big fan of I'm not getting one. [TS]

  There's actually two of the moment a period [TS]

  when without If you combine the ratings for even better so you get you get up the working show about features by doing [TS]

  better normalization and getting rid of trailing periods. [TS]

  Fair enough I'll get to that as soon as I can keep the thing running for more than ten for ten minutes. [TS]

  Hugo and Marsh OK So this is like that that old web site give up [TS]

  and use tables with a timer for you to try to do things that going to battle days of C.S.S. [TS]

  when You can do lots of of a sea of us you know one more show and then Marco [TS]

  and I are going to force you to stop using web sockets and enforcers after that you go to use Perl. [TS]

  Although if we realistically speaking [TS]

  when we should stop your news events are good for you started using them for a shoebox because there's no reason to use [TS]

  Linux. [TS]

  Protect our curiosity so we give you an hour we'll give you a couple weeks say OK you just want to do is really just [TS]

  playing with things you want to go fine go ahead [TS]

  but a certain point to say Look just make it work stop using website at [TS]

  but if you think about it it's the right answer for it leaves no it is not a persistent connection to the clients of [TS]

  like no it is not the right answer. [TS]

  Well it actually is useful because it gives you the immediate feedback of the new stuff comes in you don't need [TS]

  immediately people staring at the show I need to see what someone has changed a vote right now if you don't the latency [TS]

  unpeople looking at show voting does not need to be real time this is not like a game [TS]

  or a simulation where we need feedback like it's not they perpetrate Knology for this purpose. [TS]

  You could have a fifty five minute refresh interval and it would be fine it's just a show but not a real time three D. [TS]

  Application. [TS]

  John the last time I said it's just a show but it was about hardening said shoebox and we also have that end [TS]

  but the Web sites are fighting against you and that area like they're making it worse. [TS]

  It's a technology that it either is not mature enough [TS]

  or I mean it seems like the library for dealing with are mature enough because if they were you wouldn't be having all [TS]

  these problems. [TS]

  I just can't imagine what the heck is going on behind the scenes here that's causing even the worst crappiest slowest [TS]

  of B.P.'s in the universe to overload and crash not overloading is a store an exception that nobody catches [TS]

  and they killed it. [TS]

  Most of them will then once I get around the problem [TS]

  but this is because the inception of the coming from within website gets exactly as a third party libraries during [TS]

  exception that I guess you didn't expect I think over the specifics of the bug [TS]

  but that wasn't a bug in the actual website it's library I just repasted the jest [TS]

  and it's very they where the actual problem is. But that's right and C. [TS]

  Sharp have exceptions case you just not accustomed to having to catch exceptions [TS]

  and deal with them you know there's no need to be cruel to him like she says the whole thing in try catch [TS]

  and always keep the thing from going down. Well generally. [TS]

  I would prefer for this situation to die violently and tell me exactly what's going on [TS]

  and I think actually we got a pretty big fight with Marco about this yes [TS]

  or no it's like I said turning that into yes turning that fiddlers you're not turning warnings into fatal errors. [TS]

  You're not doing anything with fatal errors [TS]

  and I think it's fine for example to have multi-process mild to let your apache child die because it had a fatal error [TS]

  because the whole service doesn't come away and then there's where you lose all your data. [TS]

  The parent the parent will just spawn another child and it will go on but I want to single process [TS]

  and you're not catching exceptions. [TS]

  And one comes along you're saying a process goes away and that's what we agree we agree [TS]

  but my point is just that if the error was something more specific like oh somebody tried to send ten thousand bite [TS]

  thing over over this Web site that then I could take action on that [TS]

  and thus harden a system a little better that what I'm going to do however since I didn't get useful feedback is I'm [TS]

  going to add a you know a try catch if you will or at least handle this error message error vent [TS]

  and then call that call today because clearly I'm not getting anything useful from it. [TS]

  Well it's like when I maybe any web server if the client sends invalid you know invalid method type [TS]

  or whatever like you could you can make the pier that's malformed [TS]

  and your server should handle Yeah garbage client connected to me he sent me something of a kind of like trying to be [TS]

  rigorous but I actually was invalid because the method I use doesn't actually exist in this header [TS]

  or it sent this method but it didn't have the required headers [TS]

  but it claimed to be one point one like either your library [TS]

  or if you're not your library they'll use your app has that has to be resilient to people sending you garbage [TS]

  and you would think that would be the job of the library like you're writing something on you know patchy platform [TS]

  or using my P.H.P. or Something like that. [TS]

  Your sim in the pageant going to handle like crazy in doubt [TS]

  or question Is everyone going to get to the point where I get your P.H.P. [TS]

  Does that Patty's going to return to five hundred error and tragedy [TS]

  or pay Tantlinger wherever you want to do before it even gets to your thing but. [TS]

  The Web site his library is not doing that for you [TS]

  and we don't even know if it's because people are sending mail form website [TS]

  or requests it could just be a bug in the library and people are sending perfectly valid website requests [TS]

  and this is choking out. [TS]

  Either way it's not good for your server and if you just did everything the old fashioned way with a T S B [TS]

  and Ajax you would be having this problem. [TS]

  That's possibly true [TS]

  and I would like to address something from the chat somebody said I don't understand how Casey could be a professional [TS]

  programmer [TS]

  and I think it's important to realize that I am working in technologies that are not typically used to working in a so [TS]

  in so far as noting web sockets but B. [TS]

  and More importantly this is something I threw together for fun in not a lot of time. [TS]

  I'm not being paid to do this and I'm not doing this for my job. [TS]

  I'm doing this just for grins and giggles and just to learn [TS]

  and a lot of the things that I'm fighting like people deliberately being malicious are things that I don't often run [TS]

  into in my day to day work [TS]

  and so I would have put in a crap load more time being defensive in my programming instead of being defensive right now [TS]

  and making sure all of these things were considered in taking care of and things of that nature [TS]

  but I didn't say I didn't spend the time on it B. [TS]

  I still don't think I should but the chat room is a bunch of pains my butt [TS]

  and see this is not like my normal job my normal job I'm paid to consider all of these possibilities [TS]

  and to spend the time to to get all this right and this is something I threw together in the sum total of like three [TS]

  or four hours. [TS]

  So it's a very different I would I would say let's not pretend this is not the way that the person who said that [TS]

  comment strikes me as someone who is not a programmer because that's not to pretend this isn't the way that all [TS]

  programming happens it just may not happen in public but this is how you write a program guys. [TS]

  You try it you find out how it's broken you fix it like this in the process of programming it just that he's doing it [TS]

  sort of in public. The writers normally also be happening on your local computer. [TS]

  As you write it and try to use it and it crashes and you write something else and you try to use it and it screws up [TS]

  and like that's called programming. [TS]

  Do you think it would work better if you were running an a virus software on your mac. [TS]

  You know that antivirus thing like I mean I understand why people do that [TS]

  but that's so insane to me that like people would insist that you have antivirus software in your bag I wonder if the [TS]

  same requirement applies to i Phones you have antivirus software on an i Phone I'm sorry it's not it's not qualified to [TS]

  can we can use that. [TS]

  Well I mean again this is a government entity [TS]

  and I don't know if you Well John you should know better than even that government entities are things that are [TS]

  associated with the government they tend to have just piles and piles and piles and piles [TS]

  and piles of red tape much of which is not understood by the people that enforce it. [TS]

  Yeah but they do change like my wife works in a place that has crazy requirements [TS]

  and it used to be that you couldn't bring any device that had a camera anywhere you know you can bring a camera [TS]

  anything that had a camera on it and then one phone started have cameras you can bring any of the cameras. [TS]

  Then he phones with cameras and because that's a camera right. [TS]

  But a certain point all phones have cameras [TS]

  and then it's untenable to tell people I'm sorry you can't bring your phone to work [TS]

  and so they had to change the rules [TS]

  and say OK well it's obvious that we can you know be like well Blackberry makes a special model that doesn't have [TS]

  phones in them for enterprise and that's what we're going to force everyone to use whatever [TS]

  but now it's like you know even the government has to eventually recognize you know and so they did [TS]

  and they said OK well there's certain areas where you can't bring your phone [TS]

  or any camera because we assume your phone has a camera but you can bring your phone to work and send [TS]

  and receive phone calls with it. [TS]

  So eventually you know they'll catch up but they don't require you to have antivirus software on your i was device [TS]

  but I bet in two thousand and seven they sure did and were sad when you told them that makes no sense [TS]

  but places I worked that did a lot of government contracting for a long time the official stance was you may not have a [TS]

  camera phone and this is right when you just like he said one phones with cameras started becoming prevalent [TS]

  and I believe they changed the policy. But yeah it's. [TS]

  It's a tough thing it's a lot of stuff that market isn't have to deal with and probably doesn't have the patience for. [TS]

  And sometimes I wonder if I do it. [TS]

  Yeah I don't think I've never been in the job that I had that have laid my internship at Nationwide [TS]

  and all these other I have never been in the job because like I've always been at the small companies where I can [TS]

  pretty much have whatever I want on the computer. [TS]

  Well that's the thing is for my company it was I found it extremely agreed just [TS]

  when they instituted a you have to change your password every ninety days policy [TS]

  and I'm not trying to get into a security discussion about why that's important or good [TS]

  or bad I'm at sixty days Casey right now. And in two thousand and fourteen. Right so the C.S.O. [TS]

  I was really upset when when that happened but I mean my computer it's wide open I can do whatever crap I want with it. [TS]

  It's the problem is is that because I do consulting when we work for [TS]

  and with clients we have to generally speaking not always we usually roll with their rules and their rules [TS]

  when you work with either large government entities [TS]

  or large financial services companies as my company tends to do have tremendously strict [TS]

  and difficult rules so it's not that all the real world is bad markets to some parts just the parking lot just the [TS]

  parking lots and we don't have any. Yes So by I mean I'm three let's go back to the important stuff they were around. [TS]

  You know also suffers all suffer through black just for you know one of the color would you pick. [TS]

  Mustard mustard yellow Fishel taluk mustard efficient German color of yeah I think that's a that's a B. [TS]

  The deal is if I if I get to buy you a history I get to pick the color and you have to drive it. Oh no that's fine. [TS]

  Just give me the right transmission for christ sakes. [TS]

  That is by the way and and speaking of the most recent car [TS]

  and driver more stuff for your case it was that there were thirty cars under thirty thousand dollars section I don't [TS]

  know if I've gotten this one you look at the white white car snob. [TS]

  Thirty thousand to thirty thousand to cover the hot hats back story was on the cover. Nothing interesting. [TS]

  But anyway my car is right in there and thirty cars under thirty three but they say they love it. Now they're wrong. [TS]

  I think we call it nearly perfect. Definitely not even you agree with that. [TS]

  I thought I said nearly all right I've built my M three I think is it like seventy five grand. [TS]

  Seventy five to fifty mark. [TS]

  Too many options on a stand of use how do you like there are choices for anything so it's like well I guess I'm getting [TS]

  this interior color and this is like looking at these leather colors trim colors and B.M.W. [TS]

  Individual other interims like I don't know what combinations look at this the promise of a car is that you pick [TS]

  everything because they're going to handle if you're anywhere in Japan you know half a million dollars. [TS]

  But I'd be like I don't know what looks good together it's your job to decide what colors in the interim look good [TS]

  together in the end it will read people just pick and like the random combinations [TS]

  and you know you've got to have a million dollar car with nothing to match isn't it right now that I'm depressed [TS]

  because I don't want to spend seventy three thousand eight hundred twenty five dollars [TS]

  or nine hundred sixty dollars a month on a three on the go to bed. [TS]

  Also you would never actually pay their their list price you can negotiate way lower than that now so I just Marco go [TS]

  ahead [TS]

  and buy one for me I'll drive in black I don't care I might even I might even accept it if it had the stupid D.C.T. [TS]

  That's sounds like you're changing your mind a little bit on the D.C.T. That C. [TS]

  That sounds a lot like not be willing to suffer through is what I'm saying I would not choose it myself. [TS]

  I'm saying that that sounds a lot like you know this fish isn't really that bad I kind of like that one song. [TS]

  Sounds like you're changing. Finally like I'm winning you over there. [TS]

  I'm proud to tell you that I continue to not know [TS]

  and I have never known the title of any fish song would not recognize any of her songs if I heard them [TS]

  and despite you toots continuing to discuss for a song. By title. [TS]

  Now I also do not remember any of this is I don't one by title I have I wouldn't recognize if I heard them on the radio [TS]

  I did not know a single title of the sales of Dave Matthews unfortunately another few of the Top forty is new You've [TS]

  mispronounced Fortunately it's my curse. [TS]

  What this perhaps unfortunately you know and knowing the day Matt and knowing some of the. [TS]