The Accidental Tech Podcast

74: One Of Us Shipped Something

 

  Let me start by saying that I have started work on the show by title ordering but it is not done [TS]

  and I apologize for that. There was a poll request someone send you the code to do it. [TS]

  I know that I know but I don't know if I have and I've only glanced at it [TS]

  but I'm a little opinionated about how I want to done so I'm going to give it the college try. [TS]

  But one of us shipped something or something. [TS]

  Me I'm going to go to college try and see if I can do it the way I want to do it [TS]

  and if I can do it in basically the one time I sit down to do it then I'll take a poll request [TS]

  and walk away about this alternate strategy except the poll request [TS]

  and let us use that while you work on your solution and then revert. [TS]

  Then remember that integration and putting your changes throughout is that's probably the better approach [TS]

  but that's all right so nothing really happened this week so let's start with follow up. [TS]

  Apparently some stuff we said in the past has been wrong clearly [TS]

  and with the talk now for a half hour to explain why it was wrong. [TS]

  John the first part of but the first item and problem I have in me. [TS]

  Actually we got a lot of feedback that [TS]

  when we were talking about what would cause someone to switch to android from an i Phone [TS]

  and we got a piece of feedback that we talked about an episode [TS]

  or two ago that said hey you know a lot of these these new versions of I.I.S. [TS]

  Can kind of slow down your phone and make the response time to everything a lot less quick [TS]

  and that's maybe why people switch. And so somebody wrote in I don't have who it was but some you wrote in. [TS]

  Many people have noted the perceived slowdown in older phones could likely be purchasing an old phone. [TS]

  For example buying a four S. Today which is still on store at Apple dot com Actually I think I wrote that. [TS]

  The point being that you can still get a four S. Today and I would say it is presumably coming out in September. [TS]

  Member in probably isn't going to run to the forest because I believe it is supported is that right. [TS]

  The forest is supported on a that's correct for all the eighty five devices are supported on eight which is injuring [TS]

  two there's a lot of them like if they cut off the a fire device that they cut off the original i Pad Mini which is [TS]

  still for sale. [TS]

  Exactly so there's a lot of older devices being sold that are still going to be supported [TS]

  and so that's that's something to consider [TS]

  and something that would perhaps drive you away from Apple because here you get this perhaps not. [TS]

  Amazing experience here what if this was your first i Phone or first smartphone when you buy a forest today [TS]

  and it runs all right with i OS seven [TS]

  and then in a couple of months you see that I will say it is available you go an updated nods and runs like crap. [TS]

  I mean that's that's noble you know so that's just some to consider. [TS]

  We talked about that investors who are talking about why the heck that the i Pad two was around so long they might stop [TS]

  selling that writers don't know you're probably right. [TS]

  Anyway yeah but we've had that same complaint [TS]

  and another one of my hobby horses is not putting enough RAM in things especially when you can upgrade it. [TS]

  It's short sighted from a sort of customer satisfaction [TS]

  and brand satisfaction level to skimp on RAM Even though it helps your margins because some people will say oh I was [TS]

  going to get it with the minimum [TS]

  and if the minimum is not a reasonable amount like if you just setting someone up for is a much much better nowadays of [TS]

  S.S.T. [TS]

  Thought I was spinning disk was just torture to get a mac with the minimum amount of RAM [TS]

  and then use it for several years and by the end of its lifetime the O. S. [TS]

  and All the apps need way more ram of the thing was always swapping especially with like fifty four hundred rpm laptop [TS]

  drive in it's just it was bad. [TS]

  Yeah [TS]

  when we talked about this the whole having it upgrade it slows down your thing I don't think any of us thought that wasn't [TS]

  a phenomenon that happens I mean with it we've all actually own devices that we've either decided not to upgrade to [TS]

  Iowa seven or regretted upgrading to Highway seven and all way back I mean I remember oh my. [TS]

  One of my original i Pod Touches I think I didn't want to upgrade to for something and then eventually I gave in [TS]

  and regretted it. Like this is a thing that happens if you keep if you keep devices long enough. [TS]

  I actually I did it to attain this [TS]

  but a follow up the I guess the first one is that if you buy a device that will sell you something that they probably [TS]

  shouldn't still be selling like you get an i Pad two. [TS]

  And when it was so clearly long in the tooth or you end up with a current non Retina i Pad Mini [TS]

  or you know poor Marco's mom buy an i Phone four [TS]

  when she should have been like that's Apple's fault for selling those things and the customer gets it [TS]

  and they get a bad experience sometimes this is a bad experience for the box right. [TS]

  But the the idea that the solution to that is to try another vendor in some sense make sense if you're if you you know [TS]

  you don't know anything about Apple and its products [TS]

  or you bought an apple think it sucks you try a different one right. But for tech savvy people they are. [TS]

  I would imagine that they could have a similar reaction [TS]

  but for different reason tech savvy people are going to do it for the airline reason we're like it's a vindictive area [TS]

  like well I bought this thing. I was satisfied with it and used it for a while I upgraded it. [TS]

  Apple should never even allowed to be upgrades that's Apple fault I will now. [TS]

  My solution is for my next phone for my next tablet or whatever I'm going to buy from a different vendor [TS]

  and that can very quickly turn into you know I just I just hate Apple not buying their stuff anymore [TS]

  when in reality the optimal solution for that person who may be used [TS]

  and enjoyed Apple products for a while is the next time they buy you know buy a higher end Apple products spend more [TS]

  money on the travel would love the spend more money rather than actually to work well again it's Apple's fault for [TS]

  selling these old devices to long examples fault for allowing the upgrades to go on them when they don't perform well. [TS]

  Arguably tabel fault of the software doesn't perform well [TS]

  but like if for example I had a relative who had that experience [TS]

  and I knew that they were satisfied with Apple devices in general. [TS]

  Wouldn't recommend our will for your next one you should get an Android phone. [TS]

  If I think that they would not get a better experience. [TS]

  Yes they get the satisfaction of saying well now I'm not going to buy Apple stuff anymore but it's like really. [TS]

  You'd be super satisfied with an i Phone five S. For your next phone right so if you say you had a four S. [TS]

  You have granted to get slow. [TS]

  If you really love drive on for all that's life except for this last part which again totally Apple's fault for putting [TS]

  them in a situation everything. [TS]

  It's like you know cutting off your nose to spite your face by saying well the next song I get is an Android phone [TS]

  because that probably won't be a satisfactory experience especially if someone has a stylus or whatever. [TS]

  So that's one angle on this that the whole idea of just I'm angry I'm going to get revenge at Apple [TS]

  and I'm going to do something that's technically not really in my best interests [TS]

  and by the way this is why again everyone else that's been my [TS]

  and others why I recommend people don't get an Apple device if the only one you can afford is the cheapest one they saw [TS]

  because that she puts on a solo it sucks. [TS]

  Like it's true of you know it was like a thousand dollar IMAX it's like fifteen percent less expensive [TS]

  and fifty percent slower like [TS]

  and you know if you can't get the expensive one you actually are probably better off with something else [TS]

  and then the other point I had in this topic is at a certain point hardware [TS]

  and software sort of catches up to the baseline of what the what people want to do with the O. S. [TS]

  If you think about the early history of US ten where it was just super slow for two years a design was years [TS]

  and years it felt gross it felt like molasses it was really slows compositing on the C.P.U. [TS]

  Even when they got the capacity and the G.P.U. [TS]

  The drawing and then [TS]

  when the resizing all the event handling just it was just slow it was crappy at a certain point the cheapest mac you [TS]

  could buy could pull them in those fast and scroll things like these days. [TS]

  No I don't want to buy the least expensive Numac from Apple. [TS]

  It will scroll a page OK and that sounds stupid but we went through years very concerned roll [TS]

  and where everything was just super slow. [TS]

  Think Iowa's devices are very close to getting to the point where no matter what piece of crap you buy from Apple [TS]

  you'll be able to score through a web page OK at a little web page OK It won't like no no as upgrade will will screw [TS]

  them in the way that Iowa State is probably able to screw the lowest supported device today we're getting very close to [TS]

  that tipping point where the hardware is good enough for the basics to work or not there yet though [TS]

  and I think this is a painful period and the beginning of i OS like forget it you know the I O. S. [TS]

  One was like once was that three G. and Especially three G. S. [TS]

  Came out you didn't want to look at those old devices anymore you could not go back [TS]

  but you do eventually hit some minimum threshold of like you know on the mac menus work [TS]

  when the resizing works scrolling works you can watch applications that waiting a year [TS]

  and still hundreds until you can do without that will make your thing feel slower [TS]

  but you we just need the basics of work [TS]

  and we're not quite there yet so I'm hoping that this time period where Apple keeps doing the strategy of selling [TS]

  devices for a long time giving giving them a lowest upgrade for a long time will eventually work out for them [TS]

  when the cheapest device they're selling meets the minimum threshold required for just the basics to not be awful I [TS]

  think certain generations age better than others to like it in the case of the I O. S. [TS]

  Devices where you'll have you'll have basically the old model being kept around for you know two years [TS]

  or so certain certain chips and models have a lot more headroom in them than others [TS]

  and so like you know the original i Pad was not kept around because it did not have a lot of headroom had way too [TS]

  little ram the A five with the i Pad two at the time had tons of headroom which is why they are still selling eighty [TS]

  five devices today. [TS]

  You know sir and you know the reason I've had many you know for an i Pad These days it's kind of sluggish [TS]

  but it still works. So that's why they can still sell it. But you know running i OS seven on the. [TS]

  One for was a bad move. [TS]

  And I think I think the A six [TS]

  and a seven especially a seven really has a lot of headroom in it so like the current the current five C. [TS]

  The A six I don't know how long they're going to keep selling a six devices. [TS]

  There aren't any i Pads with anymore but I would guess that the five C. [TS]

  Internals from the i Phone five with the A six I would guess those stick around for a couple years [TS]

  and it really won't be that bad. The RAM problem is going to be an issue for even for the seven devices like the C.P.U. [TS]

  Is going to get better but again. [TS]

  Apple's been so stingy with RAM they've done multiple generations without bumping the you know the Rams technique [TS]

  things [TS]

  and that is going to hurt it much sooner than like you know you're not going to top out the A seven doing basic stuff [TS]

  find the A seven is clearly adequate for you know sliding views back [TS]

  and forth scrolling them responding to tap invents doing doing all the basic things you need that we're just talking [TS]

  about [TS]

  but if applications start using more memory because the applications become more sophisticated that a seven is not going [TS]

  to save you if everything keeps getting swapped out [TS]

  and you can't fit things around you play one game in a booth at all your safari tabs [TS]

  and it's all sorts of you know so that's that's why I say we're getting close to to the threshold [TS]

  but we're not there yet so I would think even even the most expensive fancy as I was device you can get today has still [TS]

  not meet that met the minimum threshold of you can keep a device for like five years [TS]

  and it will still be basically competent whereas I mean I'm sitting next to a Mac. [TS]

  Right now granted it's the top N one But again you know if you bought a top [TS]

  and Macin two thousand eight hundred photos shop I run lots of applications Granted I have created the RAM [TS]

  and all that stuff that's not true today. [TS]

  If you if you buy a top [TS]

  and i Phone today in a couple years it will not be up to the task of doing running all the applications that even just [TS]

  the basics of just being able I feel like every time I launch into this other thing it gets booted out of memory [TS]

  and I can't even run this game because it requires. [TS]

  I'm around this thing as well that's not something that first of all real time follow up I was wrong. [TS]

  They are still selling the i Pad four which has the A six and a six X. but The same C.P.U. So my mistake. [TS]

  Also I think you're right that you know high end Macs can last longer but it's [TS]

  but also don't forget if you're talking about a macro or almost everything's upgradeable [TS]

  and modern Macs not only are most Macs old not macros [TS]

  but modern Macs don't even have one upgradable part anymore it used to be you know if you bought a MacBook [TS]

  or MacBook Pro three years ago five years ago you could you could upgrade the RAM [TS]

  and hard drive over time you could maybe swap out the old spinning disk for the F.S.B. [TS]

  and Get another couple of good years out of it you can max out the RAM you know which is exactly what I did write a lot [TS]

  of people do that it's a great idea to do that. [TS]

  These are so cheap but that you know that the devices we buy today because they are so not upgradeable. [TS]

  You know almost every mac that sold now doesn't have replaceable RAM anymore or the same but if you buy a top [TS]

  and Retina MacBook Pro today everything sealed up can upgrade anything I think that machine will be fine for the basics [TS]

  in five years. [TS]

  Yeah [TS]

  but I would I would say you know if you're if you're expecting out a MacBook Pro I would say get the most RAM you can [TS]

  afford up front that because the RAM will make the biggest difference over time with how well it is. [TS]

  Yeah someone has asked me to try to recently if they should fail which machine the respect should I take the C.P.U. [TS]

  Upgrade fro to an I seven or should I take the extra RAM and it's a difficult choice [TS]

  but that they go in the ramp because again you know you know you can always do like if things take a little bit longer [TS]

  finder RAM is like capabilities. [TS]

  Speed versus capability do you want to be able to run these two programs at the same time without swapping. [TS]

  Or do you want to be. [TS]

  You want these programs to run fifteen percent faster [TS]

  and being able like capability is more important than speed right. [TS]

  And the difference between you know eight and sixteen gigs of RAM say or especially. [TS]

  There are still four gigs of RAM and when I think of low in the books [TS]

  but you know the difference between one the basement amount of RAM [TS]

  and twice as much of that is a much bigger difference. Usually then the C.P.U. [TS]

  Choices you have where you know for the same price of doubling the RAM you might get an extra five percent C.P.U. [TS]

  Performance. It isn't it isn't a big jump on the C.P.U. [TS]

  For the money used to be better but these days you know can much accuracy be a money. [TS]

  Exactly [TS]

  and you know going back to the i OS devices I think this is why you're right to to focus on RAM because that is the [TS]

  limiting factor so often like if that was deathly the case of the i Pad one [TS]

  and feedback from the tons of stuff with four gigs of RAM still coming a stock some of the low end so I will get I was [TS]

  going to make a snarky comment but I'm sure Apple still selling stuff for a gig [TS]

  but I would never actually believe that this list strips on now is even more depressed. [TS]

  We are sponsored this week once again by our friend Mal Xander and his company. [TS]

  Need need is a refined retailer and lifestyle magazine for men each month need to curate [TS]

  and sells a limited quantity of exclusive products from the world's top men's brands. [TS]

  These collections are presented in the form of a monthly editorial built around a certain theme [TS]

  and our shop my local independent photographers. [TS]

  Beyond clothing which they have a lot of really nice clothing [TS]

  but beyond clothing need also sells coffee literature furniture and so forth. [TS]

  If you could tell was written by a British person because the use of the phrase and so forth in the script. [TS]

  Soon the localized to certain cities around the world the first of which will be London need just launch a volume [TS]

  assembly if you're some of the best products for evenings with friends hosting parties and so forth feel very British. [TS]

  Their favorites this month are the Stuart throw Matt tells me throw means blanket I guess [TS]

  but it's fancier if you call it a row because it is not also a pillow is given every a throw pillow that exists right. [TS]

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  If you're asking me about the terms for furniture items of a British ad that's not my area of expertise. [TS]

  OK well if you want to become your area of expertise go to need so there. [TS]

  Their favorites are the Stuart throw which might mean a blanket the shoe would sunglasses that have to be some cool [TS]

  and the classic Oxford watch. See that's. [TS]

  I wish I could have a British accent because I feel like saying the classic Oxford watch would be so much cooler if I [TS]

  had a British accent. [TS]

  That's true [TS]

  and it is a damn fine one can watch us WAY better than all the smart watches that our industries come out with. [TS]

  All right so there's also a special offer for A.T.P. Listeners. [TS]

  Anyone who places an order with need and was sent from A.T.P. [TS]

  Send an email to hello at need addition dot com with the subject line. Overcast trousers. [TS]

  Once again that is an e-mail to hello at Meade edition dot com. Subject line. [TS]

  Overcast trousers and to be clear to be clear that's needed addition like a newspaper edition. [TS]

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  So yeah I know it's a dish [TS]

  and you know that that kind of addition need eat ition that calm so decline over casters anyway. [TS]

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  Is that a scarf is not only something you should wear in the wintertime when it's freezing. [TS]

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  I'd be much more fashionable and cool than I could ever possibly explain to you because I am not fashionable or cool. [TS]

  However I've had some things from need and they make me look much more fashionable and cool than I really am. [TS]

  Well no thanks to Matt Outlander and the need crew extremely cool. So I got red shoelaces from them that was amazing. [TS]

  It turns out if you if you take a regular pair of shoes [TS]

  and you put red shoelaces in them they become fashionable shoes. [TS]

  We have some more follow up from Melissa savage the wife of one of the co-hosts of the motel's pod cast. [TS]

  And she actually has her own podcast which I don't remember what it is. So I'm a terrible person. Very helpful. [TS]

  Yeah thank you. [TS]

  She wrote in to say I thought I'd just drop you a note about screen size because illustrates why it's important to have [TS]

  more women in tech. [TS]

  We are on average smaller than men meaning our reach is not so large despite we say we're getting over the bigger [TS]

  screen within a week. [TS]

  The i Phone five annoys me daily because I can't quite stretch my right thumb to the left corner site of a Thousand [TS]

  and One key functions for most apps this is where of course the backlog is so she goes on to say not only this [TS]

  but women's clothes are almost almost never have pockets or when they do their crappy tiny ones. [TS]

  The i Phone five doesn't fit properly into any of my jeans pockets. [TS]

  Modern purses have phone slots but these are not large maybe four inches by half an inch [TS]

  or so real time followed by the way her pod cast is silver screen Queens. [TS]

  Anyway the point being that we were lamenting the fact that our jeans pockets [TS]

  or if you're mad Alexander our trouser pockets are not big enough lead Are those the same things that the trousers were [TS]

  like khakis or threaded all pants if you're if you're in a British group I have. [TS]

  I thought they were all pale don't say pants they're British person. [TS]

  I thought they were all the things that we put over our underwear. [TS]

  We'll have to get some clarification with gender on the the underwear hierarchy. Any one of those C.P.T. Great videos. [TS]

  Part of the lower body of men. [TS]

  Some random stranger in the chat room with no credibility is saying the trousers are all pants [TS]

  and by pants you mean not underwear. That's a good question. [TS]

  This is very good because one of the British take our language and mess it up so badly. [TS]

  Seriously they they ruin everything. [TS]

  So yes it's a come sort of back to point the idea is that here it is we're lamenting the fact that our trousers slash [TS]

  jeans pockets are not big enough [TS]

  and we actually have pockets Edred zine to fit things whereas women don't often have pockets at all [TS]

  and occasionally when they do have pockets they're tiny [TS]

  and that is something that quite frankly I did not even consider. [TS]

  Well not just that but I mean there's two points or one is the clothing thing and the second is small hands [TS]

  and reaching that reaching the corners of the screen and I you know even on the wind you know on the i Phone [TS]

  when I was devices got taller it was a little bit harder to reach over there. [TS]

  But here's the thing about the women small hands and reach issue [TS]

  when I see people out on the street with a comically large phones it seems to be most frequently women with comically [TS]

  large phone [TS]

  and I don't know why that is like you would think you know on average have smaller hands they would favor smaller [TS]

  phones that is not what I see I see. [TS]

  I mean at the very least equal [TS]

  but my impression is that you are more likely to see really really just a really big phone in use by a woman than a man. [TS]

  I don't know if that what it is that you match your experiences. [TS]

  No I really see I have seen only a handful of comically large phones [TS]

  but the one the first one that I saw amongst my peer group was a dear friend of mine who is extremely pitied has a just [TS]

  ridiculously large phone to me it looks like an i Pad many See for me like I think first of all the smaller hands [TS]

  and reach if you is not just a women's issue. [TS]

  Hands are kind of medium sized and I like when I switch [TS]

  when I have one apple increase the screen size of the i Phone five. [TS]

  I had changed the grip I had on the phone to do I used to hold it a certain way but all the old size [TS]

  and then I had to like kind of kind of choke up a little bit on the phone like [TS]

  and in people terms because that was last time I played sports I had to choke up a little bit to get a better reach. [TS]

  When the five came out [TS]

  and I saw they're still like certain things you got to like kind of hold it back a little bit you're going to do I had [TS]

  to adjust the way I even touch it to certain corners and so I don't think it's necessarily a men [TS]

  and women issue I think it's a I mean there's already even within you know within both genders is a pretty big range of [TS]

  hand sizes and I think a lot of like I.O.'s has with with seven especially [TS]

  when they had the edge white gesture to go back [TS]

  and stuff like that like they're making the interface more like a screen gesture based instead of based on tapping a [TS]

  certain button in a certain spot on every screen. [TS]

  Overall helps this problem because it makes it so that you don't have to touch a very certain faraway area so often you [TS]

  can just use these gestures [TS]

  and I think I think this is the kind of problem that can be worked around with those kinds of decisions for the most [TS]

  part I mean obviously within reason you can't really use and I've had one handed it kind of sucks but you know [TS]

  and the five and a half inch phone which apparently might now be fake or delayed [TS]

  or you know it's one of those things where the analysts there's basically zero evidence for the five [TS]

  and a half a phony more for the analysts to operate to that are now saying well it's going to be delayed till next year [TS]

  because they say they were wrong but I forgot where I was even going with this. [TS]

  Your understanding of the grip thing because [TS]

  when I see people using large phones just the really big one thing you notice you're like Whoa is that a tablet No [TS]

  that's their phone I see them using it in a different way. [TS]

  Like they're not one handing it with a thumb on the thing maybe their two handing it may be like so I mean the ones [TS]

  that have a stylus obviously that's totally other the Galaxy Note things or whatever where. [TS]

  Do you use it in a different way. [TS]

  I mean and you do see them back when we had sliders with Cordy keyboards [TS]

  and everything the whole deal was people would would pull out the phone hold it sideways look down the keyboard [TS]

  and like it was kind of like what you know in landscape orientation where you you're holding it on the side like it's a [TS]

  Game Boy Advance so I'm making game references. OK landscape and using two thumbs on it with the keyboard. [TS]

  But now that it's touch oriented that that grip is gone in for a while we're in the one hand thing with the thumb on [TS]

  thing. [TS]

  But now with the larger phones I see more two hands [TS]

  and like to hand portrait two hand landscape one hand holding it one hand tapping it like all people use remote you [TS]

  know he can hold or I don't want to and then you take the second hand income from above with a pointer finger [TS]

  and you hit the buttons on the remote. [TS]

  None of these things are necessarily bad people aren't like the devices [TS]

  and are choosing to against why Apple going to make a home with a bigger screen people like the bigger phones are there [TS]

  and they're adapting their usage be avery to just robot as most are right then if you like to use your phone with one [TS]

  hand like you know with the traditional sort of i Phone style grip you will be annoyed with along with the rest of the [TS]

  people who like that no matter what your hand size the phones keep hitting bigger because I mean all you have on the [TS]

  phone got taught I found it harder to reach some sections of the screen you had to do a little shimmy where you [TS]

  remember we talked about that when the when the i Phone five Earth came out they get a little grip shimmy right [TS]

  and it's going to be even worse we're going to have to adjust our habits [TS]

  and if Apple stop selling phones of this size [TS]

  and you know just suffer along with everybody else you know write a little bit of quick follow up. [TS]

  John this is for you I believe about T.V.'s we're talking about four K. [TS]

  and Plasma [TS]

  and one of the reasons that kind of on a sort of size of business is going to cost a lot of money to try to get a fork [TS]

  a plasma T.V. Because those little cells are pits that are in plasma televisions that make up the picture elements. [TS]

  If you were to you know quadruple the number of those are roughly quadruple the number of those in the same area. [TS]

  They have to get much much smaller that's harder to manufacture [TS]

  and AWACS I think this is on Twitter sent me a link to say that Panasonic actually did make a fork a plasma television. [TS]

  It's one hundred fifty two inches that will go that way you don't have to make yourself smaller. [TS]

  It doesn't make the television massive It weighs one thousand three hundred pounds [TS]

  and draws three thousand seven hundred watts. So and not cheap either. That must have a six figure price tag. [TS]

  It is I don't think I remember the price but I will put the link in the shower just again it's not the fact that four K. [TS]

  Is an impossibility for plasma. [TS]

  The technology to make the little picture elements whatever they're called in plasma smaller they would have to do a [TS]

  lot of R. and D. To get that working. [TS]

  But I'm assuming this gigantic television was simply whatever their latest [TS]

  and greatest regular eye definition plasma process was [TS]

  and just made it way bigger with with the little cells being the same size. [TS]

  If only there was already a word for little picture elements. [TS]

  If that does not pixel to the pixel is the is the resulting image on the screen I'm trying to talk about [TS]

  and there is no cause and C.R.T.'s because it's just a big vacuum an electron gun [TS]

  and scanning over the phosphorus I think they're called cells. [TS]

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  So Marco big day little bit I'm so tired. [TS]

  When you wake up I didn't sleep well last night so it's kind of a blurry line. [TS]

  Well that was my next question was did you sleep at any point did you actually remove yourself from that. [TS]

  About eight I decided I was probably done sleeping [TS]

  and I had to come upstairs because I had the launch scheduled for eleven and I had it in the state [TS]

  and i Tunes connect where it just has an availability date set in the future. [TS]

  Because the problem was you know so I want to launch it today. [TS]

  If you set it to be released in the App Store today then it'll start going on at midnight last night [TS]

  and I don't want to stay up all night if they were server issues you know because that was the big question mark was [TS]

  will the server stay up under under the load of however many people tried out and they won. I had no idea. [TS]

  If I didn't really know how you know how heavy is each user on the server I really had no measure of that. [TS]

  You didn't do a load test things like get a bunch of the AMS [TS]

  and get it from you know the great thing about it you see doing stuff you can just get a fleet of instances briefly [TS]

  and bombard your service to simulate a load of thousands of users and I mean it cost some money [TS]

  but you can stick it on your own. Yeah I mean I thought of that. [TS]

  It would have been very hard to mimic the exact usage pattern of overcast users without you know having much of a full [TS]

  time seven pod cast being released at certain times. It would've been hard to simulate well. [TS]

  And so instead I opted to use that wonderful cloud ness of modern hosting to instead just temporarily get way more [TS]

  resources than I actually needed so I temporarily a couple days ago I went from two web servers on line node to eight [TS]

  and a very easy way to create more if I needed to [TS]

  and it turns out I didn't weigh less than that anyway so I was scared of what the servers would do [TS]

  and they want to be kept up all night. [TS]

  So instead I set it to be released tomorrow [TS]

  and then today I change the date back which makes it immediately get released at that point [TS]

  but immediately released on the App Store doesn't mean it's immediately available to everybody whenever they check [TS]

  and trying to pin search results because there you know it has [TS]

  and they propagate to different C.D.'s around the world different servers being replicated. However Apple does it. [TS]

  It usually takes a few hours. [TS]

  So I want to launch eleven AM so I made the switch of the date at eight am figuring that by a leaven it would be [TS]

  available everywhere and turned up in search results. Turns out that was too early. [TS]

  Actually showed up by about ten or nine thirty even the want to play an hour and a half but I waited anyway [TS]

  and I had you know all the people who had advanced beta copies that the press people I told them all you know don't [TS]

  publish before eleven. So I waited and you know I didn't publish before eleven either. [TS]

  And yeah so I spent the morning just looking over everything tweaking everything and then I launched it and there. [TS]

  Response was strong. Immediately I was I was scared of lots of potential things. [TS]

  I knew that I had made an app and I was very happy with it [TS]

  and my beta testers were generally very happy with it as well. [TS]

  But that's only thirty people [TS]

  and you know this this apple downloaded by thousands of people today so the opinions of thirty especially this [TS]

  relatively under Vers group are not very effective of the the Web at large so I didn't know what to expect from either [TS]

  the server load or from just the reception of the app [TS]

  and are there any really crazy bugs that are just really edge case none of these testers [TS]

  or I hit that you know would be major showstoppers [TS]

  and that I'd have to like freak out an issue a quick emergency update and it turned out none of that happened. [TS]

  It was great like it was just smooth. [TS]

  You know I was I was so worried I haven't eaten for I haven't eaten well for like a day before this like yesterday I [TS]

  was like feeling terrible all day I was just being nervousness. Now my back is a mess. [TS]

  I've been holding all this tension in my back [TS]

  and like my lower back is destroyed today it's awful because I was really taking this nervousness inwardly but. [TS]

  But it seems like everything went very well I mean the downside is I spent most of today reading thousands of tweets [TS]

  and hundreds of e-mails. I still I'm also keeping up with the tweets. [TS]

  I still have at the time of reading this five hundred twenty four e-mails that I haven't gotten to yet. [TS]

  What are people emitted like supporting e-mails to the support address or personal e-mails to you [TS]

  or is there a difference. [TS]

  It's it well there isn't really a difference yet I have a support person I'm going to hire what I wanted to I want to [TS]

  receive all the e-mails on day one you know first of all just from pragmatic standpoint I wanted to know about bugs [TS]

  immediately so I could try to fix them. But these are e-mails alike from the apple. [TS]

  You're in the application of the buttons on where you can hit that e-mails us are you talking about. Yeah yeah. [TS]

  And it's it's mostly people you know with little feature requests some bug reports some tech support kind of stuff. [TS]

  I was I was trying to be careful [TS]

  and set expectations for tech support very low you know I I don't use the word support anywhere [TS]

  and the descriptions of all these email addresses feedback and I say everywhere I can't respond to everything. [TS]

  But you have an auto responder that says please explain to me why you wouldn't want the number one podcast app [TS]

  available now. Well so anyway I have a lot of e-mail to go through I don't think it's that bad of a thing. [TS]

  I'll see what happens day to day like you know I didn't know if I should hire someone because you know as far as I know [TS]

  maybe by next week it'll be like five emails a day. [TS]

  I have no idea I don't know what to expect for daily volume [TS]

  and so until I know that I'm not going to I'm not going to make any decision about you know whether I'm a hire someone [TS]

  or not but I'll probably want to be doing it if I can. [TS]

  But yeah most females are you know stuff that takes a few seconds to look at [TS]

  and maybe a minute to respond to if I have to respond at a minute most but when you have you know hundreds [TS]

  and hundreds hundreds of them that adds up quickly. So the launch went well the servers didn't croak. [TS]

  All is good in the world. [TS]

  Yeah I mean the database server alone everyone above Like point four plus a hard one to scale the Web servers were [TS]

  negligible. [TS]

  Have you cranked back on some of the expanded footprint like have you gotten rid of some of those we M's Are they still [TS]

  know they're all still there I mean if I keep all of these up for an entire month the entire hosting bill of over cast [TS]

  is like five hundred forty dollars a month something like that. [TS]

  When I sold Instapaper the hosting bill was about seven thousand dollars a month for more or less hardware. [TS]

  Well it was more overall horsepower but not by a whole lot because hardware has gotten better since then [TS]

  and why no greater other stuff like Leno's current pricing is almost cheaper than most dedicated pricing for like for [TS]

  similar things. It's extremely competitive. [TS]

  Like I was looking before this I was I was going to host limestone networks which is a really cheap dedicated host [TS]

  and I had a server there for a while when I was developing doing crawling and stuff [TS]

  and that server was like two hundred sixty bucks a month for what I'm what you can now get line out for about one sixty. [TS]

  I mean it's crazy how good line it is right now. [TS]

  There's another example of hardware catching up to something that doesn't change as much so you know as hardware it [TS]

  gets better [TS]

  but like int for textual data in small amounts it used to be that no matter how small your textual data was if you just [TS]

  want to store like an address book for people that like bounded in size only text not a lot of thing even that would be [TS]

  super expensive just because heart rending caught up harbours gotten so much better. [TS]

  People's address books are similar in size maybe they're you know twice. [TS]

  Big Five times as big still mostly text maybe with little pictures that grows much more slowly than computing power [TS]

  price performance memory [TS]

  and stuff like that so I think the cost of like you know fast forward to fifteen years the cost of doing a similar [TS]

  service overcast like podcast feeds keeping track of what I guess are all there meditator with their feed addresses all [TS]

  that stuff like that's not going to grow at the same rate as how cheap memory [TS]

  and storage everything grows so getting to the point where it'll be like oh I run my podcast met a data service on a [TS]

  park in my home that I keep in the attic never and never look at right and that's [TS]

  when I will answer the dream is not that the dream is closer what line it offers which is like this thing run somewhere [TS]

  else you know I think about this I don't know what hardware requirements like you'll be like oh it's like five dollars [TS]

  a month you know unlimited C.P.U. and Memory that I was thinking actually as a temporary As a side note. [TS]

  Which all of us. Also that's a temporary if Apple updates the Apple T.V. [TS]

  With an A seven chip to take advantage of like metal and make a new game console version [TS]

  and everything I wonder about the Web Hosting potential you know it's like MacMini Colo times times two like the web [TS]

  hosting with Henschel of like of Apple T.V.'s a sevens or really good chips. [TS]

  But it's not I mean for for web hosting like you got to have memory to have all this disc stuff cash in memory so you [TS]

  don't actually you know you don't pull it off a disk every year just caches are all warmed up right so you need a lot [TS]

  of memory for that and you probably need lots of small we course more than what are they supposed to. [TS]

  Two fairly expensive course I think is still something I mean that's what the server chips are all like tons [TS]

  and tons of relatively weak small core so you could be processing lots of things at the same time [TS]

  and each one of those things is no longer that demanding if you're just getting and sending or again sending [TS]

  or receiving small bits of textual information so apparently a similar company had to to make me Kolo anyway so a [TS]

  company called a MacMini vault. They post that here and you have a page goes on an Apple T.V. [TS]

  Put that we could be shown but no fans of Apple T.V. [TS]

  As you know have you know I guess you have to address all fans may be compact enough Apple T.V. [TS]

  Isn't going to produce heat if you packed enough of them in you need something to push that heat into the aisle [TS]

  and then the data set actually had like advent the front of it. [TS]

  Very strange I imagine like you know computing power to density ratio has to be pretty good with with an A if there's [TS]

  an eighty seven base Apple T.V. There has to be pretty good. [TS]

  Yeah but I mean like the MacMini So these are these are not purpose built hardware for the data center [TS]

  and the people who do make purposeful harbor for the center have access to more [TS]

  or less the same technologies right so it's not as if you know this is the optimal solution just funny [TS]

  and interesting from like imagine if you've got a bunch of these parks and you put them in a little drawer [TS]

  but realistically speaking it's Google still making their own blades out of God knows what it is. You know even better. [TS]

  Yeah so first they went well do you care to share how many users you have I saw you tweeting earlier today. [TS]

  How many sign ups you had what are we at in in at least a vague order of magnitude. [TS]

  Twenty one thousand eight hundred I was that is that people accounts are registered server side. [TS]

  Are those number of challenge for Napster. [TS]

  That is accounts registered server side number of downloads I won't have until tomorrow morning when I got the stats. [TS]

  I mean you figure would be similar because it's you know you can't really use the app [TS]

  and saves lineups of people download it and then launch it I guess but yeah yeah. [TS]

  But yes I would imagine the number of downloads is probably substantially higher because there are going to be some [TS]

  people who download it and just haven't launched yet. [TS]

  Some people who downloaded it got to the logon screen said I don't want to create an account and deleted it [TS]

  or said I'll come back to this later [TS]

  and do this so I would guess number of actual downloads might even be as high as twice that. [TS]

  Do you have the fact links from that first screen that says you know I said Create an account or whatever. [TS]

  That's why I wrote the facts [TS]

  and that's why it's called the skeptics faq it's because I knew people would say why don't need an account [TS]

  and that's why at the very first question. No I think the second question you should keep track of. [TS]

  If they launch the app for the first time [TS]

  and don't either one of those buttons the second time they launch the app you should make the skeptic's fact like more [TS]

  bold you know because I don't remember seeing it there [TS]

  but like you want you want there is an explanation you might well given now there is an explanation of why why do I [TS]

  have to make an account of any kind for a part. [TS]

  Yes And and this was I've had a couple [TS]

  and I didn't know this was another kind of risky thing I didn't know like if there be a lot of people who are offended [TS]

  by this and who would who would skip it. [TS]

  You know who would cancel their efforts to try overcast entirely just because they didn't want to do that the reason [TS]

  the accounts are there is because this is an entirely server backed applet the server has all the cry. [TS]

  All in all the updating all the notifications and everything the server does a lot of the work [TS]

  and the afternoon have an X.M.L. Parser. [TS]

  The server does everything and just outputs Jaison to the applicant and decode quickly natively. [TS]

  Anyway and so there has to be some kind of user their vacation method between the app [TS]

  and the server now if all I ever had was an i Phone app. Even even if all it ever was I O. S. [TS]

  Apps that were on the same account I could I could do things the kind of hack around so I could do like you know [TS]

  generate a random idea the first time you use it and then use that as username behind the scenes [TS]

  and never even show the user what their user name is and you know then they could that could work just fine. [TS]

  I could also you know store user ID string [TS]

  and in i Cloud in the key value store so that way you know they could launch it on their i Pad after I make an I've had [TS]

  version [TS]

  and it syncs over you know there are things that I could do the big problem with that is first of all that would almost [TS]

  with web functionality. [TS]

  Second of all if I then had a way for them to add an email address and password to this account. [TS]

  Believe me I know what would happen because I had similar issues with people making accounted Instapaper what would [TS]

  happen is people would make duplicate accounts they would they would you know rather than associate an email address [TS]

  with their current account they would create a new account inadvertently with the email address [TS]

  and then you have two accounts and they email me saying all my podcasts are gone because I logged into the new one. [TS]

  They didn't know and then and then you have to find ways to merge accounts [TS]

  and it basically becomes a big issue with the with customer with perceived customer stability [TS]

  and data loss because they will do something weird that makes them think they lost everything [TS]

  and then blame blame me and be very unhappy. [TS]

  And also it just a massive burden on supporting mail [TS]

  and so I chose you know what let me try instead just require the count for right up front explain it as best I can I [TS]

  know a lot of people are still going to not do it but. [TS]

  Let me just show you let me use require the kind of front make it always require an email address so I can do password [TS]

  resets and let you see if that works you know. [TS]

  Maybe that'll be fine and you know in the future if it ends up a lot of people are being turned off by that [TS]

  and I really want their business. [TS]

  Then maybe I can add the system where OK just starts up with an anonymous ID and you can add an email address later [TS]

  but I would rather try this first because if this can work well enough it is so much easier to support [TS]

  and it's so much easier as a user that it's always the same. [TS]

  All right and you say you say all these things as though you've been burned once [TS]

  or twice before I don't know what are you exactly right so let me start with a couple of obvious questions [TS]

  and then I have some hopefully less obvious questions [TS]

  and then as we talk I'm sure John will start tearing apart little bits and pieces of what you're saying. [TS]

  I'm so looking forward to this. Do you want to save that for probably the end if we don't get to it in the middle. [TS]

  Why freemium. [TS]

  I'm not that confident in the market for a paid up front to happen anymore especially because I want to charge a good [TS]

  price for it. You know I'm going to purchase the the model is in summary the app is free. [TS]

  There are some limits the purchase removes the limits. [TS]

  That's one purchase one time five bucks and I read all the limits so it's kind of like a trial version. [TS]

  It's kind of my my hacky way of doing a trial version except that you know the entire app is an expire just certain [TS]

  things just don't work after you know certainly don't work unless you pay. [TS]

  And even then and the two big things that don't work the Smarts speed [TS]

  and voice boozed you can actually demo them without paying for five minutes like they're like a five minute trial of [TS]

  those features. I actually wasn't even sure if Apple would allow that but they did. [TS]

  So it is basically a trial version and again so. [TS]

  So I'm back a minute so that's five bucks I don't think if I launch today in the App Store. [TS]

  I'm sure my day one sales at five bucks would be. [TS]

  A decent but I first of all I know I got way more people as this model than I would have with that model I know that. [TS]

  Second of all I know over time that would be very hard to sustain because once the initial P.R. [TS]

  Is over and you know once all your friends and all your blog readers have bought it [TS]

  and once everyone who's going to write about it has written about it then the sales of every app just tail off like [TS]

  crazy they just drop you know if you look at the graph it was like a rollercoaster. [TS]

  And in the end they settle in to a point that eventually kind of lowers more hours. [TS]

  If your app is paid up front that happens faster and it happens more severely I've seen this happen [TS]

  and you know Instapaper was always that model the entire time and it's still that model today. [TS]

  I know that model very well that the paid up front model. [TS]

  I also know that in today's App Store in a competitive category where I don't even have the most features [TS]

  and people are very very picky with with what they want what they don't want. [TS]

  I knew that a five dollars paid upfront app was not a good long term solution. [TS]

  So that's why [TS]

  and so I found a way to make free work you know I saw with Instapaper there are so many people who I would I would come [TS]

  in contact with in real life even like even like family friends I would like you know because in them I'd see on their [TS]

  phone they were still using paper free even though two years after it has continued. [TS]

  I think there are so many people who matter how much they like you they just they don't pay for apps. [TS]

  It isn't like it isn't just that they like Walt it's that they in their minds don't like they that's are something I [TS]

  don't do it like that's kind of the kind of mindset it is who buys batteries Marco. [TS]

  There's there's just there's a lot of people this is not a small group a lot of people who really just. [TS]

  Don't buy apps [TS]

  and I knew that the the biggest pod cast app in the world by a very large margin is Apple's pod cast up the second [TS]

  biggest by a pretty large margin is stitcher. Both of those are free. [TS]

  I want to make an app that's good and free because the fact is the apple pie is not bad. [TS]

  It's not great but it's not bad. [TS]

  That's the biggest competition of the market and it's free and it has a lot of features [TS]

  and it has some features I can't I could never have like integration with i Tunes there are alternatives here you know [TS]

  I could have like somebody to chat I could of done as you know [TS]

  but I've never seen an addon app that I thought maybe app look good you know like it's it's as an after a very [TS]

  intrusive because I think of so much space [TS]

  and the inventory is usually I don't I don't mind doing pod cast ads here because their advertisers are good [TS]

  and because for the rest of the show you know we're giving like you know six minutes of ads out of a ninety minute show [TS]

  when ads in an app not only are the advertisers usually terrible [TS]

  but it's taking up a pretty big chunk of the screen all the time. [TS]

  That's a much bigger cost on the user than the kind of ads I respect like podcast [TS]

  and you know well done blog ad like the deck ads and it's a very different ratio and the advertisers are all cheap [TS]

  and crappy And so I just I don't like app ads at all. [TS]

  And there are also features in the app like the Twitter feature where you know so I offer these like Twitter based [TS]

  recommendations where you can connect a Twitter account [TS]

  and you can get recommendations based on the people you follow based on what they listen to [TS]

  and you know if they've been to their accounts [TS]

  and that kind of feature works best the more people you have it's a social feature. [TS]

  And this is why all social apps for free are at that because this social network value exponential blah blah blah [TS]

  and so this is the same way where that feature becomes a lot better if I have more people using it so I decided rather [TS]

  than you know get five bucks from everybody I was going to try to try to get five bucks from us. [TS]

  From a few of the people who use the app and just try to make the app as cheap as possible to host like. [TS]

  And I focus on that from day one because I did not want to miss the point with where I was Instapaper where it was very [TS]

  very expensive to host this with with with overcast. [TS]

  I have made every possible focus on keeping it as cheap as possible on the servers. That's why I'm online node. [TS]

  That's why I have my big expanded version of the hosting we're going to be five hundred bucks a month [TS]

  and I'm probably going to get away with more like two or three hundred after this is all done. [TS]

  The whole point of this was cheap hosting make this sustainable that way and so the next question is which a few of R.D. [TS]

  Asked is Why not a subscription price [TS]

  and I thought about that awhile to at my my model for the purchase I've been all over the place with that in my in [TS]

  planning this. [TS]

  Originally I was you know I was going to do everything is unlocked and you just pay what you want for the app [TS]

  and that you know I thought about that I got some input from some trusted people and that just it wasn't very good. [TS]

  Is that even allowed on the App Store How would you how would you get the money from them. [TS]

  I actually asked them that because I think that's a good question. [TS]

  I talked to a couple people at Apple who have you know the people I could find. [TS]

  They don't necessary publish a directory or anything [TS]

  but the people I could find who might be relevant to an apple I try to e-mailing in and got various places [TS]

  and all them kind of ended with well maybe. [TS]

  So it was kind of a question mark as to whether that would be allowed [TS]

  and generally with apps Torah stuff you don't want to live on a question mark edge of a rule. [TS]

  What you said earlier John exactly right which is the cost of hosting each user goes down with time. [TS]

  So the only way that my if I'm if I'm responsible about how our hostess and how I manage the resources. [TS]

  The only way to the cost really meaningfully go up over time is if the user base is growing substantially over time [TS]

  because otherwise if the user base stays the same and usage stays the same than the cost of hosting will. [TS]

  Slowly decrease as hardware gets better at the end hosting it's cheaper [TS]

  and it will be like Instapaper where people like me just have this massive backlog saving just thousands [TS]

  and thousands of our Even when you are kind of them [TS]

  or I forget what your policy was an archive things used to be like a window [TS]

  but if you paid for I've had various roles they were people's Instapaper collections could in theory grow as podcasts. [TS]

  This one working set and then after you played an episode like you're not retaining that empower you. [TS]

  Well I'm retaining the the row in the database which is a row of like five integers of like you know the pod cast ID [TS]

  the user id whether you complete a litter not and [TS]

  when there's things you can turn that stuff off like you don't need to keep a record of it I listen to this episode [TS]

  three years ago because it's no longer visible in the app and been visible the app for for years. [TS]

  Well actually if the podcast has fewer than fifteen hundred entries it is still visible on the up [TS]

  but the reality is like I mean I know I know from tumblr how these tables grow and what that means [TS]

  and what it cost to host [TS]

  and the fact is a table full of you know hundreds of millions of your associations like that is really nothing to host [TS]

  like it sounds it sounds like a big number but in reality it like you know a table with with five [TS]

  and your rows that that could be like your service could be the biggest time where the table might only be like nine [TS]

  gigs you know that's really we're not really talking a massive amount of data here this is you know that's [TS]

  and I think the index is bigger than the table usually [TS]

  and you are saving the text the five versions of web pages Instapaper database right because like it from I was saving [TS]

  a monastery I was in the to base our budget but somewhere you are seven because you had the. [TS]

  But he thought if someone had a different view of a Web site [TS]

  and somebody else you couldn't just save that web page as they saw it [TS]

  and allow everyone to see that it was a way to work with logon barriers so that you know so that if you if you are [TS]

  lucky it is I require a logon barrier if you stayed with the bookmarklet. [TS]

  The book would send a copy of what you were seeing to the servers we could save. Just for you. [TS]

  And anyway so where was I So you know that I didn't descriptions because my costs aren't high enough where I really [TS]

  need them like I can I can get all get along just fine without them I don't want to do in the future like with [TS]

  Instapaper when I saw Instapaper I don't know what it is now I have been bugging them about stats [TS]

  or anything because honestly that's not my job anymore but [TS]

  when I sold it to paper it was making about half of its income from subscriptions [TS]

  and the interest was in the stream model it was you know the apples a few bucks. [TS]

  Most of its life it was fired and became three. [TS]

  About halfway through the time I had it I launched these monthly subscription that would allow me to offer a very small [TS]

  subset of users very expensive features. It started out with search. [TS]

  Well sort it out with nothing they then became the night of search. [TS]

  Most people who subscribe did not subscribe because of search most people who subscribe to scribes out of a sense of [TS]

  good will to me for providing years worth of Apple updates without charging them [TS]

  and you know making you know based on given them building up a surplus of goodwill among my audience. [TS]

  That's kind of my plan here is if I need more money later on to to address hosting costs [TS]

  or whatever you know I'll do a few years of free updates. [TS]

  People like me enough that if I if I put it like a tip jar or something [TS]

  or like you know a monthly voluntary solution that does nothing I can you can make good money with that. [TS]

  We really think that I was making half of my income from those [TS]

  when I sell into paper most of those people never searched you know that was not the reason they were buying it. [TS]

  So that's that's that's the plan for money is what I'm saying that I miss him even when i'm sorry to put a long day [TS]

  and I'm kind of mentally fried that lasted though you're saying like the idea of having the equivalent of a tip jar [TS]

  even to technically is for a search or whatever and having [TS]

  or having a subscription they already mentioned of those are both viable to like you're saying oh that can't work. [TS]

  I mean because you know from experience that it can work in a resort fashion what is it about that approach that you [TS]

  didn't. [TS]

  Like that made you change your mind this time [TS]

  and go with the you know five dollars to unlock the rest of optionality thing it really is a combination of not having [TS]

  a lot of faith and I could keep my shoulders to paper over a year ago and when I saw it sales were not great. [TS]

  And so you know I saw the writing on the wall for the paid up front model back then and I'm not very confident now. [TS]

  Part of it is also that now is a different model you know in cheaper had basically one and a half competitors. [TS]

  The pod cast that market has a lot of competitors and many of them are free [TS]

  and so I recognize there is you know stiffer competition here. [TS]

  I was going into it you know I was going to a very mature market like with Instapaper even though there was competition [TS]

  from you know six months after I launched the competition [TS]

  and I evolved together like we both started from the same spot of not much [TS]

  and then you know we were able to grow over time in complexity and advancement with the pontiff's market out. [TS]

  I'm going into it like everyone else in this market has been writing their apps for like four [TS]

  or five years like these are these are now like old apps they been around the block. [TS]

  They have tons of features tons of infrastructure in place. [TS]

  I was starting late to this game so I was going to come in with fewer features by necessity [TS]

  and so that's another thing I tried was that I realized that I would need I would need to do something a little more [TS]

  dramatic than just launch for five bucks if I wanted to get a decent user base [TS]

  or I think it was comparing to also launch it free but I have a you know twenty dollars. [TS]

  I like Marco because he makes nice things thing that unlock some feature that no one's going to use like search. [TS]

  But people would do out of the goodness of their heart like that as the model of the painter not the five dollar front [TS]

  but the large in application quote unquote subscription whatever you want to call that. [TS]

  Did it really unlock anything like the big tip jar. [TS]

  Yeah the main reason why I didn't do something like that is that I just didn't think most people would buy something [TS]

  that expensive and like one of my ideas was to have like a three tier system of pay what you want. [TS]

  You know two dollars a year five dollars here ten dollars a year is something like that [TS]

  and I was a little afraid that you know by making it complicated because those things are all kind of complicated by [TS]

  making it complicated. [TS]

  Then you know I think you reduce dramatically the number of people who will do it because some of those words are going [TS]

  to scare people away. [TS]

  You know I was even thinking like you know use it maybe using like the public radio vocabulary calling these things [TS]

  pledges or you know if you know you could be like a supporter of the app you know. [TS]

  So where would you run a telethon like once or twice a year that if I did that maybe I'd have to consider it. [TS]

  I thought of all those models in various showers are taken over the last two years. [TS]

  And because that's in the shower i think about pricing for my app most I don't know why. That's my life. [TS]

  So I went with this model because it's simple and because it's a it's a low barrier to entry. [TS]

  The price is relatively high. If it's five bucks I was tempted George Tenet actually but I knew nobody would buy that. [TS]

  You know and who knows I might discount the purchase in the future you know play with the president. [TS]

  It's not hard coded anywhere. [TS]

  I decided in the end to just keep it simple because it's simpler for everyone simpler for me it's simple for the users [TS]

  this give me flexibility I can do things like you know in certain places people who can't use an app purchase. [TS]

  I can like put up put up a web stright buying form and then you know sync that over with their accounts [TS]

  or unlocks the app like theirs by keeping it simple I have many options. So that's that's really it. [TS]

  All right we're also sponsored this week. [TS]

  By fracture fracture they sponsor us a while back I think in May They wanted us fracture is great fracture prints [TS]

  photos directly on glass in vivid color it's really interesting so I have a bunch of fresher printer in my office [TS]

  because they're good I mean I you know it started out obviously they were a sponsor that's how I learned about the [TS]

  disclaimer. [TS]

  But even even when I [TS]

  when I'm not being sponsored by them I have on multiple occasions bought fracture prints at full price because I like [TS]

  them. Fracture their printing method. [TS]

  It's great that you upload a picture or whatever and you get it printed [TS]

  and it's really the pictures printed directly on a thin piece of glass that's amounted to a thin piece of foam board so [TS]

  there you can hang it up easily. [TS]

  These these prints are relatively lightweight like you don't have to worry about them like falling off the lawn you [TS]

  know pulling your wall down and shattering or anything. [TS]

  They're they're they're very they're just immensely practical because what you get is a really nice looking glass print [TS]

  that's border to border frameless and then it is it is kind of its own frame. [TS]

  You don't need to then we get a picture frame and compared to getting a picture frame. [TS]

  It's an amazingly good value so I have a bunch of these things I have a couple of big ones showing on various nice [TS]

  pictures I've taken and I have these three that are the smallest size they have you believe is five by five inches [TS]

  and I use those to print out app icon pictures of the apps I've worked on so I have this row hanging in the wall of my [TS]

  office. [TS]

  This row of app icons that I've worked on is kind like a trophy collection for the things I've done in my life because [TS]

  when you make apps there aren't a lot of physical you know artifacts like that [TS]

  and it's so integrated like the five if I print it just twelve bucks so it's really no barrier to entry here if you [TS]

  want to get a couple of app icons made you know you spend twelve bucks is no big deal anyway. [TS]

  Fracture puts everything you need to get your photo on the wall right. [TS]

  In the box you know they give you a little picture anchor thing if you get little. The desk version. [TS]

  It has little stand already built in the frame. [TS]

  Presents are just twelve bucks for the prints they're very reasonable even the big ones are really reasonable. [TS]

  And every fracture is handmade and checked for quality by a human being in their small team in Gainesville Florida. [TS]

  It is the sinister lightest and most elegant way to display your favorite photos [TS]

  and the best thing is you can even get fifteen percent off with a coupon code. A T P So please use coupon code A.T.P. [TS]

  To get fifty percent off. Go to fracture Me dot com That's F.R.A.C. [TS]

  To you Ari Me dot com fracture Me dot com Thanks a lot to fracture for sponsoring our show. [TS]

  Once again I definitely recommend them they are great. [TS]

  I'm looking at will see five of them right now in the field of view. [TS]

  Yeah they are really good and I recommend them as well. [TS]

  Let me ask another obvious question then I'll get into one or two that are less obvious. What took so damn long. [TS]

  I started writing this in October twenty twelve and that was when I still own the magazine. [TS]

  That's when I had the idea for the audio processing stuff [TS]

  and so I want to make a little prototype to see if it was impossible. [TS]

  So I did and it was it was great [TS]

  but didn't really have time to to make a full pocket separate at that point I had a project then you know that actually [TS]

  other projects went away and I had time so I worked on them and didn't you know let my last fall [TS]

  when my announced overcast XO XO last September. So almost a year ago. But it's when I went downstairs. [TS]

  By that point I'd been working full time for four [TS]

  or five months of my that I really thought I was almost done because as a typical programmer of the car. [TS]

  Well you know it works for me for the most part it works it works on my phone. [TS]

  Find two months that turned out not to be the case. It's just a pod cast apps are so. [TS]

  Credibly complicated and I didn't quite fully appreciate that at the time you know I didn't [TS]

  but I knew about stuff like you know feed you know having to manage weird feeds [TS]

  and everything else like you know edge cases there but just the interface. There are so many screens in a pod cast. [TS]

  It's crazy. [TS]

  I have read some of those briefly a couple weeks ago on the after show so you know it's it's just so there's so much [TS]

  that goes into a podcast app and I now have five hundred [TS]

  and forty five emails in my inbox at least half of which are asking for features that I haven't even done yet. [TS]

  You know it's a very demanding market as I'm learning today. [TS]

  I thought I was launching with a lot for a one point oh turns out for the most part. Yeah people are fine with it. [TS]

  But there's a lot of people out there who are really demanding more a lot more even from day one [TS]

  and so I didn't want one player I anticipated some of this so I didn't want I didn't want to disappoint people one day [TS]

  one so I didn't want to leave like massive gaping holes now streaming is a big one [TS]

  and in a video it's a medium sized hole I don't ever plan to support video because it's it's kind of a different medium [TS]

  and it demands different things I would be able to use my audio engine and any of the effects [TS]

  and they're all so I could use that I could use a compressor but I couldn't I couldn't use smart speeds really weird [TS]

  and there's a bunch of stuff that I couldn't it would be harder to do with video [TS]

  and the whole interface had to accommodate video and then you know you have the question of like I will. [TS]

  Are you allowed to mix video into play lists and if so what do you do. [TS]

  Like do you start playing video podcast episodes right in the middle of audio What if you're in the car like those [TS]

  weird beings with supporting video that I don't think are worth it because I don't think a video pod casts are that big [TS]

  of a requirement. I would venture a guess. [TS]

  Jordy a park has listeners don't listen to any video podcast is just such a different medium in video I think was it [TS]

  was for me at least it was an easy decision not to support. [TS]

  You don't use it you just don't do it the same time as it's a different demand [TS]

  and I think also most videos move to You Tube these days so I was going to say like our video blog as even a thing [TS]

  anymore other than You Tube channels more or less replace them but I mean I suppose they're they're still out there [TS]

  but like a devil. [TS]

  If I was into video I guess I would want to have that was built around a video podcast because the right there are [TS]

  different and I suppose you could make one super apps does both audio and video but that's a tall order [TS]

  and like I would be perfectly having separate applications for video audio pockets I mean you know [TS]

  and people use the You Tube application if they're watching You Tube channels and stuff. [TS]

  Exactly so that's one of video no streaming was was harder to harder to take. [TS]

  Basically the reason I don't have streaming is not because it's some oversight that I just forgot to add it as some [TS]

  email is have a second. [TS]

  That's not why the reason I have streaming is that all my audio processing stuff is done using RAW low level Core Audio [TS]

  A.P.I. Eyes that don't inherently automatically provide streaming support the other apps use A.V. [TS]

  Player and any player the A.V. [TS]

  Player framework is higher level the downside of the players it removes one of the control that you have there is a way [TS]

  to do voice boost. Not quite as well but you can do it with a little more C.P.U. [TS]

  and If you do it that way but you can it is possible to voice boost with a B. Player. [TS]

  To the best of my knowledge it is not possible to smart speed [TS]

  and I've thought about lots of it with the thought of a lot of different ways to maybe attempt to hack smart speed into [TS]

  a B. [TS]

  Player and I just could not come to anything that was that was remotely doable and reasonable [TS]

  and not like the ridiculous horrible pile of terrible fragile hacks that would break immediately. So you know. [TS]

  And to make smart speed I had to do rock or audio [TS]

  and I thought smart speed was a good in the future to make that worth adding months to the relevant time [TS]

  and making me have to reimplement things that everyone else gets for free with every player including streaming the [TS]

  other thing is when the other apps that do streaming they have to do in a limited way because A.V. [TS]

  Player three reasons that I believe I tried asking Apple about this to B.C. [TS]

  In a lab this year no one really knew for sure or at least told me but I [TS]

  but it seems that the reason why is because of H T V live streaming and its D R M and expectation thereof. [TS]

  You can't save a stream and you can't turn a download into a stream you have to either stream something or download it. [TS]

  You can't do both you can't just like start playing a partial download [TS]

  and you definitely can't convert a stream into a download like you know just stream it [TS]

  and just say just save what you're streaming until it's done and then say that of a file you can't do that. [TS]

  What I'm going to do [TS]

  when I do add streaming which is I'm going to begin work on Naturally once one point stuff settles down. [TS]

  I'm going to do it so that you can just start playing a progressive download. [TS]

  Doing that well in the background download system requires new capabilities that are in Iowa state only so it made [TS]

  sense to wait until I was eight came out and do it then and so that's going to do with streaming. [TS]

  So I ask a genuine question why is streaming such a big deal not from a development side from a user side like there [TS]

  have been times I've wanted to listen to a show and it hasn't been downloaded and so I just wait for it to download. [TS]

  Like what am I missing that makes this such a big deal to so many people. [TS]

  Most of most of the benefit stream and I think has been removed with background downloading and I was there seven. [TS]

  I really think that you know for the most part most people are going to have things downloaded [TS]

  when there's you know at home or the office on why five. [TS]

  And they will never even notice the downloading and then you know they'll go out [TS]

  and start listening in those they have downloaded but streaming is really useful. [TS]

  Like when you're adding a podcast and you want to start playing it immediately [TS]

  and so for that instance like oh I want I just discovered this episode of the show where we start playing this right [TS]

  now. You can't women not you personally but you can't wait like literally sixty seconds. [TS]

  Also the chat room saying storage space I mean I know I shouldn't be arguing with anyone I just I didn't realize that [TS]

  people were running within like fifty or one hundred megs of the limits of their device. [TS]

  I'm surprised to hear that you got all the gigs free I just try to upgrade my I seventy one to which I had forgotten [TS]

  that I had enough credit for that and day. [TS]

  Well every time I try to have a grid I was nothing tells me No no space only one point four gigs are available so I got [TS]

  to go delete stuff and you know getting in a lot of room just for the for even small upgrades. [TS]

  Also like a lot of I mean there's issues of download speed also. [TS]

  Yeah that which is what the chat room is now telling me is that I'm spoiled by L.T.E. [TS]

  Slash decent wife well and also some podcast are hosted on servers a C.D.N. [TS]

  That themselves don't on the files very quickly or can't in the files very quickly. Yeah that is a big problem. [TS]

  So my experience I was I don't have an i Phone [TS]

  but life with my bae touches with the background downloads every time I pick up my i Pod Touch [TS]

  and go to overcast over the past month or so I've been using it. [TS]

  Everything's already downloaded because it's just been sitting there my wife by all day. [TS]

  But some on the occasion [TS]

  when I said No I actually I want it like you just want to get this episode I do the thing you just said Daisy [TS]

  and I go to download it and I look at that one percent two percent you know I go all know exactly and I [TS]

  and for me I can say well I'm going to get in the car and drive away anyway so that leave my house to download stuff. [TS]

  It's an i Pod touch so I guess not. [TS]

  I think there are two use cases one of the people like me music streaming you think of people like just wandering [TS]

  around constantly pulling audio over cell data. [TS]

  They go right into their years [TS]

  but I think the other use case is I just I don't want to have to wait for the download to finish [TS]

  and I want to be able to start listening if that's like can't because presumably the service can send audio data fast [TS]

  enough that you can listen to it in more or less real time. [TS]

  So that's what I would like out of the screen as and I remember being frustrated [TS]

  when Apple first added podcast i Tunes I got all excited when the podcast got a subscription [TS]

  and then cooked on an episode [TS]

  and so the downloading BOM Likewise in a play is not going to play until I finish downloading this is ridiculous you [TS]

  know he used to like everything you know. [TS]

  Web browsers if you go to an audio file a video like of course it starts playing the whole thing downloads it's not you [TS]

  know but podcasts weren't like that probably for a frame or agreements [TS]

  and by the way a lot of people in the chat room have mentioned lots of other pod cast outs that already do this I think [TS]

  the market was saying is that the framework Apple provides don't give you a convenient way to do that so if you want to [TS]

  do that it is entirely possible you have to do it yourself though [TS]

  and one market say if you want to wait until I was eight because their frameworks that make that easier. [TS]

  All these other people thought of as apps like artist I've got a big head start [TS]

  and they've already implemented their own way to do all these things centrally I think what it comes down to the [TS]

  screaming is for streaming. You gotta pick what's going to make it into one point oh and that one didn't make the cut. [TS]

  I mean if you had added streaming you'd be waiting many more months before thinking about where [TS]

  and specifically what what they do and they need you know this is no big top secret. [TS]

  What they've added any is the ability to basically use streaming on the same download that can become a background on [TS]

  that if it has to even set in if you want to do a background download on the Apple isn't running order. [TS]

  You kick off the request and it says all right and then it can tell you progress updates [TS]

  but if you can't get to the data until it's done so there's no way to stream that So if you were offering before you [TS]

  had to offer streaming in a way that well and you also can't convert any other downloads into a back or download. [TS]

  So you'd have to offer streaming in a way that if you were streaming hit pause and you know the app got terminated [TS]

  or got background and that would get canceled in failure and you start over again with a back or not [TS]

  and if you want a file where what they've added in eight is the ability to convert a streaming data download into a [TS]

  background download so that sort of that use case can can continue and you can do that well. [TS]

  So that's that's a that's a mini is right. [TS]

  What about the dev process surprised you the most was it just that there are that many screens [TS]

  or was there something else I was most surprised at all this audio stuff worked on an i Phone And that's actually [TS]

  pretty good answer really because it was like oh my god the amount of processing I do on every sample that goes through [TS]

  forty four thousand one hundred times per second [TS]

  or if you're a stereo pod cast eighty eight thousand two hundred times per second the amount of like just processing [TS]

  and math like I look at almost every sample in some way. [TS]

  When smart appears on least and he wants more speed is off to render the little peak meters animation E.Q. [TS]

  Animation I'm looking at every sample I look like I'm doing an F.F.T. On every sample. [TS]

  That's crazy talk to it like in like thinking about that like just logically that shouldn't be so fast on an i Phone [TS]

  It's it runs at thirty frames a second i Phone four. Like I end without messing up the C.P.U. [TS]

  and To answer people in the chat talking a battery impaired and everything. I was concerned about battery impact. [TS]

  I've been using this for over a year now [TS]

  and the battery impact is fine it's fine like it's it's not what hits the battery the hardest is playing shows faster [TS]

  than want to X. [TS]

  and So to some degree smart speed does that because the reason why that's so hard is that you're then asking the [TS]

  hardware to process. More than forty four thousand one hundred frames per second. [TS]

  You're asking it to you know if you're playing at one point five X. [TS]

  It's going to process you know sixty whatever frame frames per second so it's going to [TS]

  when you're playing faster than one X. It still has to like decode the M P three read all that data. [TS]

  Proselyte all that data. So it's it's it's doing all that work more per second. [TS]

  That is what makes a big battery impact if you look at the C.P.U. Usage meter as you're running one of these things. [TS]

  But that's true of all the pod cast apps including Apple's like they all have that problem because that's just the [TS]

  reality of playing data quickly is that you have to then read [TS]

  and process it more quickly so you have to do more of it and costs if you time you're not doing the evil eyes [TS]

  or animation when the screen is off right. Correct. Yeah. [TS]

  If if there isn't one on screen or the screen is off or the app is not foreground then it does not do anything right. [TS]

  What's your favorite feature which may or may not be the one you're most proud of. I'm different. [TS]

  OK I think my favorite one is is playlist reordering the way we play with random [TS]

  and it's crazy because I really wanted this particular feature which is I didn't want to have to distinguish between a [TS]

  manually organized playlist and a smart playlist the way you know most like i Tunes or the ballet. [TS]

  I want it all to list to be smart and mentally organized. So that's how I did you know in Africa. [TS]

  So you can set your criteria for your playlist and you know what should be included. [TS]

  But you can always just drag it around to reorder it and then when new things come in your order is preserved [TS]

  and it just tries to you know it tries to obey the filters in a reasonable way and the priority settings [TS]

  and everything to try to fit a new episode in where it should probably go. [TS]

  Given your reordering you know when you first told us about overcast you know that was quite a while ago [TS]

  when you were talking about things like smart Smeaton things that you were. [TS]

  Trying to include in it and you had told us about your playlist ideas. Possibly it was underscore and I doubt it. [TS]

  In South Carolina but regardless of when I'd never use playlists ever in any park has staff ever used and so [TS]

  when you gave us the beta I tried to do a playlist for things that just aired and I listened to. [TS]

  Which is basically just Tyrrell talk and everything else and every time I started fiddling with the playlist settings [TS]

  or perhaps reordering the playlists like you were describing it was very quickly apparent to me that this was something [TS]

  that I've always wanted in my life I just didn't know it yet and it's really really well done [TS]

  and I am not surprised that you count that as your favorite feature I think my favorite is probably smart speed because [TS]

  I think it is so transparent. But the playlists are a close second. [TS]

  Yeah I mean smart speech I think is deafening what I'm most proud of because you know smart speed is it's a big it's a [TS]

  hard thing to do look at it like one of my one of my formulas for my own happiness [TS]

  and intellectual happiness as well as success in the app world is it's nice if you do like one hard thing [TS]

  and a lot of easy things in an app. [TS]

  That's a really good balance to have because if you do it one really hard thing that makes it harder for competitors to [TS]

  do and the copy you feature by feature. [TS]

  But then all the easy things help it be easier to maintain for you [TS]

  and usually like a lot of things that are very hard to do aren't really worth it. [TS]

  Like they don't they don't bring it isn't a must have feature for customers so you know be careful what you pick. [TS]

  But like you know I talked in the last half a show about how I work so hard on the Kindle feature for Instapaper [TS]

  and in reality it probably wasn't worth all the effort I put into it because it was hard. [TS]

  It's easier these days with some of the tools but it was hard anyway. [TS]

  Smart speed is is a very hard feature to implement Well you can do it badly in a few easier ways [TS]

  but I want to do it right and I want to do it well and not easy. [TS]

  That said there isn't anything stopping of the other pocket of developers from doing it. [TS]

  So you know like just time and dedication and you know possibly having to rewrite a lot of code. [TS]

  You know they could do it. [TS]

  It's not like it's going to be closer to me forever like I'll be lucky if it's closer to me for six months you know. [TS]

  But anyway and yes I know R.S.S. Radio already does it to print any so it was of today. [TS]

  But anyway I'm very proud of that I'm also a very very proud that my E.Q. [TS]

  Meter's animation thing actually works because the whole reason I did that is because Apple in their music I have an [TS]

  Iowa seven like the the problem I was trying to solve with that was how do you indicate in the in the list of episodes [TS]

  how do you indicate which one is currently playing [TS]

  and the way Apple handles this is they have a little pink animation in the music screen that is like a tiny version of [TS]

  this in like a little circle on the side [TS]

  or something like that it's tiny version of a few meters you know what drives me crazy about it is that it's fake it is [TS]

  just it's just a candid admission of some bars moving up [TS]

  and down it is not actually reflecting the music that is playing. So me being a smart ass and being arrogant. [TS]

  I thought you know what I thought I could do that for real. [TS]

  And so I tried and I let you know and further that I'm probably have to use Open G.L. [TS]

  and To make it really fast and then kind of Hardy's Open G.L. [TS]

  On a trans loosened blended layer that's going to blend into the rest of you I care that's not easy [TS]

  and I really didn't want the overhead of doing G.L. Because I don't want to spend two weeks on this one of the future. [TS]

  What made you think you know we're going to use up in jail for it just to get information fast enough or you know [TS]

  or for battery reasons like you know like maybe I could do it with with quick draw or whatever [TS]

  but maybe would take too long in your throat. [TS]

  You mean you mean the actual drawing process to life so what you worried about. [TS]

  Not so much the you know coronation will be run through of a job of like that you don't want to have to draw the little [TS]

  lines with core graphics thinking that would be you would be able to get sixty venturous I can out of that I was [TS]

  worried about that and I was also worried about you know the F.F.T. [TS]

  During the background pressing on the second like what is that going to do to battery life for a living and G.P.S. [TS]

  G.P.S. and They're waiting to run your D.S.P. Functions on it. I thought about that but also the C.P.U. [TS]

  Versions of it works so incredibly well for for the for the scale I'm running them on I don't I don't think you'll make [TS]

  a big difference. [TS]

  The libraries they have those what are they called the arm extensions the arms and extensions neon [TS]

  or something like presumably Apple's libraries are you know using that behind the scenes on the C.P.U. [TS]

  To support it so it's kind of like you get your own you know like all tobacco all over again. Exactly yeah. [TS]

  So so I made you know a very heavy use of the Accelerate framework the B.D.'s P. [TS]

  Functions which I'll do as I as far as I know they all think they'll use neon when when and whenever they can. [TS]

  And so so I made this little eyes are with that I realized how quickly it ran [TS]

  and it was originally only going to be on like just overlaying the artwork on the table cells. [TS]

  That's all I needed it for and then I realized oh this is really cool [TS]

  and I also added to the main playing screen first of all because it will cool in a cynical way is to have it on like [TS]

  the navigation screens and not on the Now Playing screen. [TS]

  And also because I thought it might help like if you look into a pod cast on your phone [TS]

  but you know if you're you're not doing something else if you're like sitting on the couch looking at your phone like [TS]

  nothing else is going on or you're like sitting commuting on a plane [TS]

  or you know something that you want to signal to other people that you're listening. [TS]

  Now I want to well first of all it is nice that it has a feature like you know a lot of a lot of other acts of the only [TS]

  way you can tell they're playing is you know if the time is moving basically and you know [TS]

  or you know the simple change on the play button but like it's it's these are pretty subtle signals. [TS]

  Over cat it's very clear once playing something [TS]

  but also I want to give people who were just sitting there with their phone [TS]

  and had nothing else to do something to look at. [TS]

  Like just something to keep you visually entertain a little bit so that maybe just maybe you'll for a few seconds more [TS]

  not switch over to Twitter and stop intentionally or listening to. [TS]

  So it was kind of like a political statement as well like let me give you some reason to stay in this app [TS]

  and something to use lock your visual tension so that you can pay attention to the pod cast rather than switch in [TS]

  something else [TS]

  and you know zoning it out so while you mirror all the bars Johnny I thought it looked better that it was better. [TS]

  Simple as that there were there were a number of good reasons why the number of bars had to be nineteen eighteen [TS]

  nineteen. Yeah there were a number of reasons the number had to be no greater than one nine hundred like that the F.T. [TS]

  Window size it would like it would've been really difficult and more a much more complicated and much more C.P.U. [TS]

  Intensive If I had more F.F.T. [TS]

  Buckets so I couldn't do more bars than that [TS]

  and so not not always it was better to have the shape be symmetrical the bars form rather than just being like a big [TS]

  slope and you fall off the edge of the screen. [TS]

  So not only is the shape symmetrical but also the bars can be nice [TS]

  and thin relative to you know not being with these you know big fat ones you know interplay between the parser [TS]

  and have is that stupid. Yeah I can do that. [TS]

  All right so I've got two more questions and then I genuinely like to hear John destroy your future. [TS]

  Firstly what do you hope people appreciate and perhaps you feel like you've already answered that. [TS]

  But as an example of something we haven't really talked about yet is the link to other athletes to do it before we made [TS]

  this entirely the ME show [TS]

  or do we have any other topics we want to get now I don't want to I don't want to take over too late to be done of the [TS]

  topics but they'll keep till next week. Yeah and if you can the way many because I keep asking. So it's my fault. [TS]

  So yeah. [TS]

  So what do you hope people appreciate what I was trying to say was an example of this that I've seen a lot of positive [TS]

  feedback for from whatever was the linking to the other independent pod cast apps [TS]

  and I've seen a lot of comments fly by about how that was a classy thing to do. [TS]

  Maybe that's your answer maybe it isn't but what do you hope users of the app really appreciate. [TS]

  To answer to answer the question directly what I hope people really appreciate is a smart speed [TS]

  and the voice boost because these are the things that that just were the hardest they took the longest like [TS]

  and for the time being they set me apart. [TS]

  These are features that they don't immediately scream oh my God must have to do a lot of people. [TS]

  Some people sure but not not too probably the majority of people. But once you try them they're incredibly valuable. [TS]

  If you care about those things [TS]

  and some people don't some people never play poker session one ex they don't want you don't see the point [TS]

  or they don't like the sound or whatever. [TS]

  A lot of people couldn't possibly care about the volume normalization [TS]

  and everything that's fine you know you don't need everyone to look to love you [TS]

  and you don't ever want to appreciate the amount of work you put in anything that's you know the amount of work you put [TS]

  into something does not correlate to its value. So that's fine but I but I hope people appreciate that stuff. [TS]

  Who care you know [TS]

  and so that's that's a show that had to get to the question that you kind of asked about you know why did the the link [TS]

  to other apps in. [TS]

  I basically have a section settings that links to all my competitors for all not all them like this all my competitors. [TS]

  Probably the biggest one the main reason why I did is that it was kind of it was kind of a What the hell moment it was [TS]

  like you know what I don't want to do this thing and I think it would be pretty cool. I was afraid that it was a risk. [TS]

  I saw it as a risk in two reasons one small one big the small risk was that Apple rejected it because they have pretty [TS]

  strict rules about whether you can display and link. [TS]

  Two other apps within your app and under what conditions [TS]

  and if you read the rules OK Mike Well this might qualify as might not like it it was a little bit vague [TS]

  and I wasn't sure if they would approve it. Turns out they don't care. [TS]

  Not yet at least so we'll see you know future updates. We'll see if this feature will smith so far they don't care. [TS]

  The second concern that Americans are because if they say I can't do it fine I take it as resubmit no big deal. [TS]

  The second reason though was I was afraid that it would my my goal was doing this with linking to my competitors was [TS]

  really well meaning it was really to just like you know some of these people are my friends this is a small business [TS]

  these are all indie developers like me talking like I'm not linking to like major corporations with a V.C. [TS]

  Funding who were trying to crush everybody and put it right out of business like that's and that's [TS]

  and that's not this business this is a business of small independent of elders who are very similar to me [TS]

  and I want to kind of show solidarity with it almost like just kind of be friendly with the business rather than being [TS]

  hostile towards my competitors [TS]

  and again some of these people are friends of mine which made it even easier to do it I was afraid that it might be [TS]

  perceived as like me looking down on these people like oh you don't like my apple fine just take one of these you know [TS]

  because I'm like the arrogant everyone hates [TS]

  and you know like that's I was I was worried about that perception happening but it didn't [TS]

  and in fact not only did it not happen. [TS]

  I don't I didn't see a single person who seemed to think that having that feature in the app I think has gotten me more [TS]

  tweets [TS]

  and more comments more e-mails that are all positive than anything else in the app including like all my future smarts [TS]

  be a few people like that more than everything else I've done in the app. [TS]

  According to what people are telling me about what you are posting on Twitter people love it. They rule. [TS]

  Of it I was going to bring up the one Jericho I saw who is who was yelling at you about that on Hacker News I guess you [TS]

  didn't see that one [TS]

  but anyway rest assured that the Internet having to read through all of her going to redact in a strand I want to get [TS]

  all upset that you cling to your time like it takes a special kind of determination to dislike somebody if you're out [TS]

  of the way that someone linking to his competitors in a respectable way from his application is somehow you know shows [TS]

  that he is a terrible person but this person took their best shot at it. [TS]

  So my last question which I think you just answered seconds ago was what was your most surprising response [TS]

  and it sounds like linking to other people's apps was that. Yeah definitely that and a combination of both. [TS]

  How many people immediately saw that [TS]

  and immediately cared about it in a positive way so that's number one number two I was really just overall very [TS]

  pleasantly surprised at how positive the reactions generally were I didn't know until this launch I had no idea whether [TS]

  anyone would care about the new cool stuff I did because I have because I you know I don't support the i Pad The MAC [TS]

  Android. I barely support the web. [TS]

  I don't have streaming I don't support videos like there's all these limitations in overcast pretty you know those are [TS]

  pretty big missions to a lot of people but they're not very big to me. [TS]

  I only listen on my i Phone I didn't really feel myself that all these other platform clients were important to have on [TS]

  day one. Not as important as launching you know a year earlier saying all right so there is there is that. [TS]

  I also you know I never want to be a pod cast because I always listen to podcasts in contexts where I can't look at a [TS]

  screen so I don't use video podcast and streaming as I said like I'm going to add streaming. [TS]

  I did make and Version one because it wasn't it wasn't. [TS]

  So important to hold back the release from the three months while I did it and wait for I was like that. [TS]

  So that's that's why. Overall though I didn't know how many people out there thought like me on this. [TS]

  Like certain features I don't even have big and small. [TS]

  I didn't know how many people that would anger and offend and turn off and who would just say useless one star [TS]

  and it turns out there are there are a few Of course it is always going to be a few [TS]

  but it's a much smaller percentage of people than I expected. Yeah that's awesome. [TS]

  And I should to back up just a brief moment I should point out that I was curious how you were going to handle ordering [TS]

  the pod cast apps that you were linking to because one could perhaps unreasonably construe that [TS]

  or whatever you put at the top is clearly your most favorite of all your competitors [TS]

  and I don't remember if it was that you told me or I noticed [TS]

  but you found a way around that which I thought was very clever I just randomize the list every time you open the [TS]

  screen right. But once I saw what I thought was that was a very clever idea and a really good touch as well. [TS]

  Yeah I do the same thing for the same reason with the directory categories like that the category list itself is [TS]

  ordered intentionally but the DE pod cast in each category are randomly ordered every time you look nice. [TS]

  Same reason because it's like you know I don't I don't want to like I don't want to have to rank these like you know [TS]

  one through six in this category like I don't I don't care that much that I don't want to be like that too alphabetical [TS]

  for the director. [TS]

  I mean yeah [TS]

  but then you have like a triple A tech show if people are going to be gaming your particular i Pod i Pod get up with it. [TS]

  Well that like your listens to Casey it's like you want to add that security now or later. [TS]

  So yeah that's that's why I did that that way and also by the way another risk that I thought the only. [TS]

  A developer who was in that list who knew about it beforehand would underscore David Smith he's a friend of ours is in [TS]

  the beta so a pod Wrangler bonus for David Smith that was the only app on there that knew about it beforehand. [TS]

  I was also afraid [TS]

  and this could still happen that one of those developers get really pissed off at me for including them on that list [TS]

  and would demand removal. If that happens I can do it server side it's no big deal. [TS]

  But why oh why would they demand removal. [TS]

  I don't maybe they really hate me as a competitor and don't want to be in my app [TS]

  and all I don't know they don't want you to link to their app I don't. I thought it was a risk it was. [TS]

  I don't think it was a major risk [TS]

  but I was worried like what if one of these competitors gets really upset with me putting them in here. [TS]

  I think it's an insane thing to have to worry about [TS]

  but I concur with you Marco that that is something I would worry about as well if I were you I mean keep in mind I've [TS]

  been kind of over overly sensitive to what of this thing I'm doing that I think is well meaning and and harmless. [TS]

  What could people possibly have a major problem with. [TS]

  Because everything I've written on the Internet [TS]

  or said here has been attacked with that kind of standard recently so I have to be very careful like to just try to [TS]

  think in what ways can this be totally misconstrued. That would cause problems for me or other people. [TS]

  So on a chair and I thought of something I thought of [TS]

  when I first saw this is like if you had put things from a corpse in there they would be like you can use our trademark [TS]

  image in your application. [TS]

  Technically maybe However it's their app on which I'm loading from the App Store using it to show their app pig so that [TS]

  I'm not sure that would really hold water but you know if anybody can point out [TS]

  or move them it's no big deal like I said I could do it server side and by coming out one line in a raid [TS]

  but still it gets rather I'd rather avoid conflicts rather than like invite them and then try to escape them. [TS]

  But overall based on the on the response from that competitor's list I think it was the right move. [TS]

  I am totally blown away by how many. Will just love it. [TS]

  Right so the chat room would like me to ask how do you handle the retired greats [TS]

  and perhaps in general could you give us just a quick blurb on how you handled the directory. [TS]

  Overall I would sit together three days ago and I intend update it sometimes. [TS]

  That's a that's kind what I thought I'm not sure what they're looking for you to say [TS]

  but at least with the directory part like the categories [TS]

  or it's like oh this is a Tech podcast is that how is that term is that meditated in the broadcast of that you're just [TS]

  saying oh this is the tech part again these are all hand-picked in my admin panel like I can create categories [TS]

  and put whatever I want into them. [TS]

  But so it's not it's not exhaustive I have no browser just like here's a project I guess. [TS]

  Yeah it's it's meant to be a starting point so there's every category has in it a subscribe to all button [TS]

  and the idea of adding this like I want one of my beta testers asked you know is this here because a lot of people need [TS]

  to do this like it is a common request while there is grabbed all button taking up a whole table row in the directory [TS]

  and the reason why there is not because anybody has ever asked anybody for that feature as far as I know it's because [TS]

  it's kind of an opportunistic like well let me give them a chance maybe somebody will do this. [TS]

  It's a way in my opinion it's a way to promote podcasts [TS]

  and to give people a quick way if they have if they subscribe to nothing if this is their first time ever using a punk [TS]

  ass that they don't know what is ascribed to go pick category had described all you have you know enough content to [TS]

  last you most of your time that you need that you need to listen to something. [TS]

  So that's basically it it was like the silly little mini collections like little mini curated collections of you know [TS]

  six to eight pod cast in each category. [TS]

  The idea was not to be exhaustive but to provide like a starter kit to people [TS]

  and this was this is a hedge I don't know if the directory will prove to be the most important part here. [TS]

  In which case I should probably make it. [TS]

  We're bust or if most people will use search [TS]

  and Twitter to find their stuff so this is kind of a hedge where I have this I have you know like a medium strength [TS]

  Twitter feature a basic directory and a good search and I think a good search you always have to have. [TS]

  So that's that's the question you have to have that. [TS]

  But between with the twitter of the director really which one do I focus more time on the future that will be [TS]

  determined by what people actually use. Well you can. [TS]

  You're going to amp up your directory as people start using the application because then you can do the stuff that [TS]

  Apple does it store them assuming you don't have access to Apple's meditator right like your new node where the top [TS]

  rated or whatever but you can say it like popular [TS]

  or pretty soon you'll know what what are the popular tech podcasts not just from your list [TS]

  but in general like you know if you are willing to categorize a large portion [TS]

  or scrape categorisation plays a large portion of the broadcast you have data to know this one even you could rank them [TS]

  by popular like you know what is the most popular comedy podcast and brought out one of the top. [TS]

  Well the process put their they put i Tunes category metadata in the feed. [TS]

  Usually I suppose because the i Tunes has this R.S.S. [TS]

  Spec that almost every part has featured Here's two so they could be listed and items and [TS]

  and so many podcast claim their own categories in the feed. [TS]

  So if I wanted to do something with that I could I don't I'm not convinced the value of that if you if you browse [TS]

  around with the i Tunes topless like once you leave the editorial areas of i Tunes like the editor's picks [TS]

  and stuff if you go to the site the raw top top things in this category list I don't know how useful that is I'm not [TS]

  sure this is going on I don't know yet I don't know. [TS]

  Do most people find their pod cast by present directory or by searching for them by name [TS]

  and the social one is probably the most reliable even though it seems like the weirdest in the way it is though I gotta [TS]

  put my Twitter thing in or whatever to give recommendations from your friends [TS]

  or people you follow with us like the top list if you ranked by popularity like just. [TS]

  The same stuff ALWAYS IS LIKE THIS AMERICAN LIFE is going to be the number and you know it's spoiler. [TS]

  That's what's going to be the number one thing right with this really super bowl and but [TS]

  but who hasn't heard of This American Life and in some respects is like well that's a good target. [TS]

  People you know there's a high chance to just an average person picked out of a hat will like this pod to gas because [TS]

  lots of people like this. [TS]

  But with this park with a curated list then it's like well if your taste is like Marcos then you will you may like one [TS]

  of these takes more than you would LIKE THIS AMERICAN LIFE BECAUSE IT'S JUST egos it's quirky as your particular thing [TS]

  with us whether the social one is actually the best because you have to find someone who has similar taste to you [TS]

  and then follow their recommendations to the super popular one only works if you are not an individual [TS]

  but are rather the average human being because then you're like oh yes exactly I am the average human [TS]

  and I like the best things you know it's I find I pod cast people are most excited [TS]

  when they find something that may not be particularly part of the show for example I may not be particularly popular in [TS]

  the grand scheme of things on This American Life that level. But exactly speaks to their particular interests. [TS]

  Like I like people who have one particular kind of model train [TS]

  and they will be so excited about a podcast just about that kind of model train. [TS]

  They will love that show more than THIS AMERICAN LIFE. [TS]

  Yeah [TS]

  and that's I really think the social features are much more useful than the directory from us really I think the role [TS]

  of the directory. It's a starting point. [TS]

  Right and that's that's why you know I have like my my little starter kits [TS]

  and in these little categories that's fine but you know once you get past give me a few things in X. [TS]

  Category the browsing experience is terrible the usefulness of the rankings is off you know that's why I think you know [TS]

  this whole social thing is the way to go. I don't know. All right John. Do your worst. [TS]

  Thanks a lot two or three sponsors need Squarespace and fracture. Or and we will see you next week. [TS]

  Now it was accidental accidental. [TS]

  John thank you for not getting any access to that list that you [TS]

  and I want it should be an after show this is just I mean like I was on the beta so it's not like you know saying [TS]

  anything that like I should I should have been giving more here I do in a beta [TS]

  but every time I went to the beta feedback thing and I read it I read everyone else feedback [TS]

  and like you know they're getting all the stuff to help my you know people would say I think yeah good someone so that [TS]

  are it out and did something you had a lot of debate a tester so they covered everything more or less. [TS]

  Although you know I mean I have a few things like it's rather some isn't already been said [TS]

  but the berthing on the show. What did they cover in sufficiently one insufficient. [TS]

  So I talked to you about this once in an after show before like things are revealed but. So let me just start with me. [TS]

  But I tweeted was like I'm using this happens that of my i Pod shuffle [TS]

  and I am like I'm off of my i Pod shuffle now part of a Bluetooth [TS]

  and not so much application as I switched over to like you know wirelessly playing it during my commute. [TS]

  Just when I believe it's the Yeah Yeah. But the other part of this is the other part. [TS]

  I'm one of those people who does not care about smart speed I don't listen to things that more than one X. [TS]

  I don't need a volume booster so all those features you spent a long time ago are meaningless to me [TS]

  but I would not be using your application at all but I have other pod cast apps that I purchased right. [TS]

  I didn't use them for you for to any compiler [TS]

  but it's because what I was doing with my i Pod Shuffle besides cursing at it I was bringing bringing it back to i [TS]

  Tunes plugging it in [TS]

  and various times I would either with my old i Pod Shuffle I would manually drag individual episodes onto the i Pod [TS]

  shuffle like you know sync manually sync individual episodes right and then [TS]

  when I got a new i Pod Shuffle didn't let me do it that way and I had to make a playlist [TS]

  but it was still just a manual playlist I would drag individual episodes into a manual playlist [TS]

  and think of the i Pod shuffle and what I was doing [TS]

  when I dragged him into playlists that I was like All right here's the order that I want to listen to that I don't have [TS]

  a screen on the i Pod I can play on it in the car and he's going to play in exactly in the right order. [TS]

  So I was prioritizing them [TS]

  and so I would say Oh well as soon as an episode of you know whatever Radovan lying comes out I want to listen to that [TS]

  right away even if I'm in the middle of an episode of some other thing that I was alluding to I want to run it on [TS]

  landing on the top but you know I want I want to do these three episodes in this order [TS]

  and I wanted them as a block I was it was like priority order but with manual adjustments [TS]

  and that sounds familiar it's exactly what Obama has done and that is probably maybe the one [TS]

  and only main reason I use applications because the playlists allow me to make an arrangement is exactly what I was [TS]

  doing manual before the difference is now that I mean you know it's it's on a server somewhere it's synchronized so [TS]

  like I did I'm stalled overcast on my i Pad two now that I get a lesson from there. [TS]

  It keeps track of where I am I don't have to have the problem of like switching off different environment of I don't [TS]

  have the shuttle with me rarely do anything that deny us device will know where I left off whatever so I was on with [TS]

  the play positions on all of those things [TS]

  and as I realize things that follows me around as well so this is an automation. [TS]

  One of the terrible manual process I was doing before. So that's why I use the application. [TS]

  But as to the supposed to be complaining about it I mean this is a great complete what I'm trying to explain here is [TS]

  that people said oh well you know people on Twitter are arriving as like as many debates one off for me saying that I [TS]

  use the application. [TS]

  It's less you care about exactly the things that the same things that I care about that doesn't mean this application [TS]

  is necessarily for you right. [TS]

  Because if you if you care about the smart sweet stuff [TS]

  and I don't like that it's a whole different set of priorities as are you getting it with all the people the feature [TS]

  requests. [TS]

  If you do have a pocket of is useless to you if it doesn't use video podcasts you have to like that because under video [TS]

  Parkinson everybody has something like that [TS]

  and so the same reason that I really like this application is like a reason that someone else might reject it entirely [TS]

  or you know it's like that. [TS]

  The demands people have applauded as applications are so different that hearing just to go like well John recommended [TS]

  must be good. No maybe it's no good for you. [TS]

  Maybe you want a feature that it doesn't have [TS]

  or in the case of video that it's probably never going to have that just because I recommend it doesn't mean that it's [TS]

  automatically good like it just means it fits my needs appropriately and [TS]

  and I think the playlists feature in particular. [TS]

  I can't be the only one who does maybe I'm the only one who did it manually because it's just too much of a pain [TS]

  but once people can do it without the pain that I was going through like Dubai is dragging this time around I think a [TS]

  lot of people will find that feature I mean like you were saying your favorite feature I think that is the killer [TS]

  feature even though it's like I know you but you have to reorder stuff on the table do you [TS]

  and did a little our rhythm to nick stuff when in the right place more [TS]

  or less that it I think is the most important thing for me for this application. [TS]

  But my first complaint is related to that. [TS]

  When I went to try to say OK Well Marco has applications as a player stuff let me I did first want to have faith that I [TS]

  was going to just make a manual play us out as manually do stuff like I was done before even that would be an upgrade [TS]

  because manually dragging tracks on the i Pod shuffles a nightmare compared to doing it on the screen as a previous. [TS]

  But shuttle owner using an i Pod shuffle in any way other than playing a random selection of music tracks is horrible. [TS]

  Even random selection is attractive horrible if you have other stuff on there [TS]

  but the voice over thing where it tells you like if you happen to have you know music [TS]

  and podcast you gotta make sure and you're in the right realm before you start playing. [TS]

  Oh wow that was that was added after my shuffle time I had the very first shuffle and I think the third one. [TS]

  Yeah I've had a series of them and they're not my friends a lot of it is that i Tunes being crappy too but [TS]

  when I was trying to make my first playlist I saw that it has this priority podcasting [TS]

  and I go yeah that's what I want [TS]

  and then I remember you talking about the manual we are in with the priorities I don't understand why a priority [TS]

  podcast as a thing our concept in the application like that there is two kinds of pontiff there as a priority podcast [TS]

  meaning a podcast that can have a priority and then non priority podcasts. [TS]

  Why not just make all the pop is the first thing I do when I make any playlists is I say select priority park guests [TS]

  and I select them all because they all have a priority like nope there's no tail be Enron like OK this is my top five [TS]

  Everything else is just exactly equal because what I find myself having to do is go into the thing [TS]

  and say select priority part guess Aleck's likes likes likes like [TS]

  and that's that feels like it doesn't need to exist like that concept of a priority in a nonprofit upon seems like a [TS]

  complication that could confuse people into thinking they can't get the players they want really they can it's like oh [TS]

  no you gotta Marcos' priority podcast first and maybe I'm wrong [TS]

  and other people really do want to say I have three Party Podcast and everything else I don't care [TS]

  and it's just a big it's just a big much for me but that's me that's me too. [TS]

  I want I want all of them to be proud to get because I know I mean there's not that many are in a read of my mother [TS]

  and twelve subscriptions I know which ones I what I want and all twelve of them. [TS]

  It's not as if I am confused about anyone to the Bahraini people in chat rooms saying they just want to protest [TS]

  but for me that is an additional complication that frankly confused me at first [TS]

  and then it frustrated me every time I had to go make clothes because I had selected. [TS]

  Right [TS]

  and even now I want to add a description with a five hundred caught up like they couldn't even put core intuition on [TS]

  here yet when I go out that I'm going to have to remember to go into my playlists and market is a priority podcast [TS]

  and sort it rather than it just being becoming the last party podcast or whatever or the first one [TS]

  or something like that now it's in the non-party podcast category. [TS]

  Well I find that pressing a couple people have already been plenty about this [TS]

  but like this I know I have a crappy A five device but there's a pause sometimes [TS]

  when i type of thing before it switches screens before it starts playing I don't know what it's doing during that pause [TS]

  but it's not playing the audio it's for already downloaded stuff you have any idea what that ye know that's that's real. [TS]

  Yeah that that is like I have to I have to think that basically like the A.P.I. For reading audio files. [TS]

  It's just like this old blocking C. A.P.I. [TS]

  and What I would love to do is have a lower level access to the file so I could like whatever it's doing for uncertain [TS]

  files were actually pre load something or pre read something to get from zero to playing I would love to do that [TS]

  when it downloads and then cache the result of that. [TS]

  So that way when you go to play it you can play instantly [TS]

  but I don't have a I don't have a kind of access to the eyes and maybe I can go lower level somehow [TS]

  but I haven't found a way. [TS]

  Some kind of like Amazon Fire predictive like if I've just added a podcast or if I've just downloaded it. [TS]

  Chances are good that that's going to be the one that I'm next going to play [TS]

  or even have it even if you want to take it out [TS]

  and make it perceptually faster by changing screens before the playing started right. [TS]

  So that's the right answer and that's what I have to do I haven't done it yet. [TS]

  The right answer is I have to like kick off the screen load and then have to give the screen like it [TS]

  and a loading state and then give the Now Playing screen a loading state [TS]

  and then take off the load of the file isn't going to say so I have to do that it's on my To Do list for you know one [TS]

  point one or never. [TS]

  I haven't got to it saying that several people already complained about but [TS]

  and I'm sure you know about area for the list. [TS]

  This is about the idea of going to [TS]

  and cherry picking individual episodes having it put you back out to whatever screen it sends you back out to like it's [TS]

  not as easy to just go through I want that up sort of that I want to sort of that you have you get sent back out to the [TS]

  home thinking I dig your way back and again fine. [TS]

  I've been frustrated by that a few times and this one I know you got to play about this too [TS]

  but I'm over your answer for was if you are unfortunate enough to hit the end of a podcast before you realize you've [TS]

  hit the end of it and it goes away. [TS]

  Like I don't I don't know what the solutions are you're saying like maybe you could have a holding been for several [TS]

  times I've either action I scrubbed at the end of the podcast which is easy to do with the fats on the little scrubbers [TS]

  they were never or it has run out when I have like you know it's not playing and I took my earphones off [TS]

  and didn't notice it was still playing or whatever [TS]

  and at the end of nothing is gonna have to read downloaded what is read in about that one. [TS]

  That's tricky this is most of the feature requests I've gotten so far today. [TS]

  Or the people who are like oh I cannot use sat because I need to manage X. [TS]

  Almost all of them are storage management of some sort like a lot of people are like one request I keep getting which I [TS]

  I never really considered that you know people want us but they do exist. [TS]

  Didn't cause I want to guess is a different state a state of things that are new [TS]

  or either that you know that you haven't played in deleted so like there the active state of the item [TS]

  but that is not downloaded and won't be downloaded. [TS]

  Because right now my states are basically needs to be downloaded downloaded [TS]

  and deleted those are the three states not to be a bit like a pre download like who will be downloaded. [TS]

  Q I know that what people are asking for is they want items that like on certain devices just are never amount to [TS]

  download it right. Q That doesn't run it like it's a new item. [TS]

  Yeah it's a new item that I want to keep those newly keepers unplayed but don't have the after a download [TS]

  and maybe I'll start. It's not a time you know so there's and that's a very common request so far in the mail. [TS]

  Again I was not expecting that at all in general like looking at the state of episodes like [TS]

  when I'm going through any list you know it's not always easy to tell like is that boy what state is some kind of [TS]

  iconography [TS]

  or visual element to say if you have a state in your head like is this Does this need to be downloaded has it already [TS]

  been downloaded has been downloaded and started like how far progress in it [TS]

  or is it one of those weird things you describe where it's not supposed to be done on this device. [TS]

  You've got the little eye there to try to figure out what's what [TS]

  but other I mean I guess is the main other application of use I forget what it's iconography It's like a little green [TS]

  corner thing when it's been downloaded and like maybe it's like a progress bar [TS]

  or some I don't even know the hell you spell like some visual way to look at a list and [TS]

  when I look at this list mention before like my nervousness about going on a plane fly to the very same thing. [TS]

  I don't know if all the podcast I want to listen to our downloads or not I can glance at the app [TS]

  and tell that I can go into each individual thing and see if it's downloaded [TS]

  and try to start playing to make sure that it's there [TS]

  but like some sort of visual reassurance of our knowledge of the state of each episode see [TS]

  and that this this is going to be a hard balance to strike. [TS]

  You know the pod cast apps you know I don't want to stream you have absolutely downcast I think I catch [TS]

  or is like this where they just have tons of customizable settings for everything that comes in a pretty big cost of [TS]

  interface complexity and you know I'm trying. This app is trying to be a mass market. [TS]

  I'm trying to I'm really trying to compete with Apple [TS]

  and stitcher like that's that's what I'm looking at I'm not trying to compete with downcast and pocket cast [TS]

  and insta castling But this isn't like a twitchy feature this is like this simple like a visual I mean I guess it's [TS]

  like visual clutter you're trying to not have like you want to you need to convey a certain amount of information [TS]

  and you don't want to make it clear you don't. [TS]

  Like you look at an episode The Senate has like a million little stickers [TS]

  and dials all over it telling you like obscure icons that you like what does that mean it's like a lollipop in the red [TS]

  circle has a line through it and there's a thing that looks like a could be a progress bar. [TS]

  But I think that state information about which one was just playing which thing is currently pausing it like you said [TS]

  with a big giant E.Q. [TS]

  Meter over the things like that gives an indication of what's currently playing [TS]

  but for all the other states like has this been downloaded. Is this going to be downloaded. [TS]

  How far am I in the episode is it played or not [TS]

  and by the way some of the chat room mentioned a reasonable solution to the what happens [TS]

  when the timer goes off the end. [TS]

  Have a recently played list like you just pull off the end [TS]

  and delete from that after some period of time so if you actually scrub your way through an episode you can go to the [TS]

  reason I played was I don't I don't know that it's looks like the reason the reason I didn't put a lot of these unlike [TS]

  the date if you back is there was no I can't so obviously you need to do whatever because I would try to think well how [TS]

  would you solve that problem they're not easy. [TS]

  Like it's there's only so much room for buttons there's only so much room for visual clutter [TS]

  and you have a navigation hierarchy that you mean you don't want to break out of that [TS]

  and start going like three dimensional chess for like you know when you're like right to left [TS]

  but you cannot assume in an out and it gets confusing because like you said with a lot of screens right [TS]

  and the question with all these features you know it's OK I want I want a way to do X. [TS]

  I want to way to toggle the state without affecting the state so I want to do state of this I want to do option to do [TS]

  this one of the big question is Where do you put all this stuff [TS]

  and what do you do in the interface which you know you know is that hidden behind a gesture. [TS]

  If so how does it explain to anybody is you know is it is it behind like an Info button where do you put the info [TS]

  button. [TS]

  Is it is it you know in the settings [TS]

  and how they can sense we like the apps I mentioned I like the ones I have a lot of option I doubt it has [TS]

  and I guess they have like six different pages in their settings screens because they have like all these settings that [TS]

  people the quest have to go somewhere and the you wise for that can be pretty clumsy and cumbersome [TS]

  and can turn off a lot of people and so I'm trying to. [TS]

  I'm trying to balance this like you know I'm trying to balance between trying to give people what they want rather than [TS]

  trying to get people to ask for [TS]

  and trying to be a mass market appeal app you know I don't want to add a million features I'm never going to win that [TS]

  race. [TS]

  And mostly because I can't [TS]

  but secondarily I don't want to you know if you want tons of fine grained controls over all that stuff I think you'll [TS]

  be better off using downcast just like just use them test you just concentrate on adding making it they figure you [TS]

  already have the features that are already there making it clear to the people using those features. [TS]

  What's going on that you have a certain kind of state that you already support. [TS]

  Right and you have certain features that you already support [TS]

  but a lot of them like you said like might be had like for you to give another example I'm looking at the app now on [TS]

  the little download icon has a badge it says five I tap so I don't know that badge means I soon that means it's five [TS]

  downloads are they in progress [TS]

  or whatever I tap on the little five I see a list of five episodes they all say download paused underneath them [TS]

  and very light text it would be hard to read about it even older. [TS]

  I don't know why these are all paused [TS]

  and like this is this is an example of you know the mysteries of overcast sometimes it does things that are understand [TS]

  when it's best working best when it's like you're in the cycle now you see where three download is the best [TS]

  when you're in sort of the cycle where like I was in a a long period of time [TS]

  or just like I didn't do anything application I had set up my subscriptions I had set up my playlists. [TS]

  I wake up in the morning all my particles would be there and exactly thought or that I wanted them [TS]

  and I would just play it like that's you know that's that's how you want to work it's like I don't have to touch the [TS]

  application of exactly what I want I never have to wait for it or whatever but [TS]

  when something does go wrong I want to do something weird like oh you know someone recommended this is before the [TS]

  Twitter recommendations but someone recommended that I should listen to that sort of like your chatter was. [TS]

  So I go on the surge front like you shot up on the episode like well how do I get this into my thing [TS]

  and I'm going to mark it as a priority parkas America's manually arranged [TS]

  and I subscribe to like your shadow now did I just am on the one episode is a going to download all the rest electric [TS]

  shadows it was a no I just got that one like these are pictures that already exists like you can do all these things [TS]

  but I was unsure whether I was using the app in the right way to do them you know what I mean [TS]

  and like that I think rather than adding features of them the ones you think you have to add is probably the place to [TS]

  contrary specially for mass market because Apple already does tons of stuff and already has tons of features [TS]

  but it's not always clear to the inexperienced user or the new user that those features exists [TS]

  or that those people are successfully using them. [TS]

  Yeah you're totally right I mean that's I agree they're not going to argue with you there I agree there. [TS]

  There's a lot of things in the app that are not as clear as they should be [TS]

  and there are not as intuitive as they should be [TS]

  and a lot of features that are that are kind of hidden that you know probably shouldn't be you know it's one point [TS]

  animal but the suggestions. [TS]

  So file a bug or less a problem like if I had all the good suggestions I did because I knew exactly what to do [TS]

  but not in any of the problem like it [TS]

  or not like oh it's just a lot of times it is use an application you're like oh this is obvious you should be doing [TS]

  this and some for some of the the feature features [TS]

  or indeed go market you could total Let me start listening immediately [TS]

  and say there is a down like you know you need to do that. [TS]

  That's a technical thing you can tell the person that you want to work and it's fine but the U.I. [TS]

  Things it's like so what do you add what buttons do you add what buttons the remove what you know you're We've already [TS]

  got swiping tab where else are you going to stick with other thing that's why I keep thinking visually like I don't [TS]

  know what the design would look like I don't think I think you could get something that fits in a theme [TS]

  but that they have a concrete suggestion for it like some kind of visual indication of the states that already exists [TS]

  for episodes and such and the navigation thing [TS]

  when you try to cherry pick up those not getting chucked back up again you've heard most all this feedback before [TS]

  airing it. [TS]

  On the pod cast other people can know that you've heard this feedback you should just make that you should just make [TS]

  the beta board public and say that people have said all these things before Take a look. [TS]

  To some degree it's a different philosophy [TS]

  and on how much of this stuff people are asking for a should even offer I would much rather favor good default behavior [TS]

  then a preference. [TS]

  If I can get away with it and there are some times [TS]

  when you can get away with that you know sometimes like if if people are really divided on something it's like you know [TS]

  fifty fifty happy want does have to want that. [TS]

  Neither of them is clearly better than the other just like a difference of preference like then you usually have to [TS]

  have a setting somewhere for that. [TS]

  The I think you need a setting for the at the end of the episode it immediately gets deleted [TS]

  and you can't find it again because they displace people probably want that people who are like oh I want I want to be [TS]

  done immediately but if you if you if you just put them into the recently played Episode thing [TS]

  and got rid of them after five minutes the space people wouldn't care about the I actually went to the end people kind [TS]

  of like the I.X. Did you mean to scroll to the top or having a status bar do you not really an Instapaper. [TS]

  Right it's not you need to have that feature. [TS]

  But sometimes people do it accidentally This is a similar situation like it's a frustrating situation [TS]

  when you hit especially when I'm trying to scrub around it. [TS]

  Even on our own episode I was trying to listen to something we were saying in an after show now is trying to scrub [TS]

  around near the end of the thing to find to go back as I had missed something because you know I've been distracted for [TS]

  a second and I scrubbed off the end of the episode. Oh that's not good. [TS]

  And like the displaced people are like you can wait five minutes to space people [TS]

  but I want to believe I will get those emails. [TS]

  I'm always running as based on my devices too [TS]

  but it's much worse to actually try to scrub back here something that Casey said actually go off the end [TS]

  and people who are left for a skip to skip the A.T.P. [TS]

  Theme song I don't like people like them somewhere [TS]

  but I was I have find myself speaking going off the end at the end of back to work I don't like listening to the same [TS]

  stuff and it starts playing I want to be done but to make the episode go away I have to manually. As far as I know. [TS]

  Manually from the scrubber to the end to make that episode you know the mark displayed where as far as I'm concerned as [TS]

  soon as a little music starts playing I'm done with the answer I get hit I get hit fast forward like three times which [TS]

  is enough to cover [TS]

  and I just believe the cell phone goes the step of insulation that I'm what I'm saying is like the things that happened [TS]

  near the borders at the end of the episode [TS]

  and fighting with the little you know the behavior of should it go away sometimes I want to go immediately. [TS]

  Sometimes I don't want to go accidentally And so but I think just like like the you know recycle bin or trash can [TS]

  or whatever having having some sort of buffer zone for things to stay in for a short period of time without any [TS]

  settings related to that just as the behavior of the people who need the space will just you know just tell them it's [TS]

  immediately fried and five minutes later we'll be right now. [TS]

  Yeah I mean that that's worth considering but then then I have to have a U.I. For. [TS]

  OK well how do you get to be easily to do a show up in a specialist somewhere. [TS]

  Yeah I mean like like you have playlists right so I would just keep using that metaphor like these are smart playlists [TS]

  that are built in you know to me it's I don't know if I there's enough cost to that feature that I'm not sure it's [TS]

  worth it like and then there's also there's like there's like the cognitive burden that you put on all the users. [TS]

  When an app could behave in two [TS]

  or three different ways then if you're in the user trying to figure out a way I just did this then you know where is [TS]

  this or what happened [TS]

  or do I have this file like you claim you said earlier that you were you know you want to be sure if you get on a plane [TS]

  or something you want to know what Arab things down or not right. [TS]

  One of the reasons why I've kept the storage model so simple is to provide that assurance to you know like OK if if the [TS]

  if there is no number badge or frowny face on the downloads icon then I have everything that's like that's it. [TS]

  If the damage icon is not showing a status I didn't know that that concept is clear to you [TS]

  but I didn't know that that service that I've got and I know that so I will look at that and. [TS]

  That's the Malia but that model that's the you know the programmer model that's in your head [TS]

  but the user model is not like there is nothing in the U.I. [TS]

  That tells me that that issue that that should be the case that the only way I can know that I'm safe is I just look to [TS]

  see if there's any badge I download icon if there is I'm safe and that's [TS]

  and you have burned in the beta because I change halfway through the beta earlier on when it first hit you [TS]

  when you first complain about it I was not valuing the files I was getting. [TS]

  If the download gave me a file and the download completed successfully I said OK it's exceeded done and I moved on [TS]

  and then you tap it at the file and you get the that is unfortunate or so [TS]

  and I would say up can I go to the file I don't know I like that that that that era means that opening the file in the [TS]

  audio processor failed [TS]

  and often that was because it was a bad download sometimes it was like it was not actually audio file it was like [TS]

  somebody is five a three page that when there was a server error like so what I do now in the download [TS]

  or after you've made a complaint that was correct and so what I do now is. [TS]

  As soon as the files download there's a brief pause where it seems to freeze at ninety nine percent [TS]

  and the reason why is because it's loading into the audio processor right then to see is this a real audio file [TS]

  and how long is it. [TS]

  And you know it was there and I need to get any information you get from this that we want to download it [TS]

  and give you an accurate duration and if it's not actually audio file. [TS]

  If you consider that a failed download and then showed in the U.I. and Maybe try to retry later or something like that. [TS]

  So now with that you can be pretty sure that what you're getting you know as soon as it was downloaded it was tested in [TS]

  the thing that opened all your files so it will open. [TS]

  Well I know you've got the accident to leave by scrubbing complaint before [TS]

  and I think you'll get it again maybe you know why you got it from a couple of people in the beta. [TS]

  Maybe you can check your emails Eva comes up more often but I still say that scrubbing around in a down. [TS]

  Loaded up a sword should never cause that episode to be deleted. [TS]

  Despite the fact that yes I agree that [TS]

  when you're done playing the episode having to be automatically deleted is pretty much what people want to do. [TS]

  But me moving my thumb around [TS]

  or even hitting the fast forward button should never cause out of the hundreds of I am on the plane everything is [TS]

  downloaded and I'm listening to something [TS]

  and at the beginning of the episode they make a reference to something at the end of like hour how I want to get to the [TS]

  end and see what they're referring to [TS]

  when I go see at the end I guess deleted like I want to listen to our podcast nominal playing with NO I find I can't. [TS]

  Like scrubbing using the scrubber does not seem like it should be something that causes data loss. [TS]

  Well but because like [TS]

  but you know that you just wait wait wait to see what the feedback is like maybe I'm the only one there was like three [TS]

  two or three other people who had similar comments in the beta and I've had it happen. I've had it happen. [TS]

  I mean just you know if it's a far it's a problem you'll find out because right now I'm going to people download [TS]

  and they want maybe they don't want to use it for a week [TS]

  or so you'll find out what the real percentage is one thing I did about in one of the second [TS]

  or third beta I change the scrubber so that before it was continuous as soon as you would drag it around it would see [TS]

  to that point and see if you could tell your finger over and drag to the right. [TS]

  It would just it would eventually see you hit the far right edge then delete the pod cast the way it's released now in [TS]

  the way it was about a third of the way the beta is its momentary [TS]

  or rather so like you have to touch down drag around as you driving around it doesn't actually seek until you release [TS]

  it and so in order to hit the ending delete the file on the scrub or you have to drag it to the end [TS]

  and release it while it's at the end to actually have that happen. [TS]

  Like when you're trying to get to like the last thirty seconds of a two hour pod cast [TS]

  and your big thumb is covering like the time stamp [TS]

  and you can't really you know it's easy to accidentally even released him just to take a look over the timestamp is [TS]

  and I realize you've at the end. Yeah that's fair. [TS]

  I mean what you're identifying is definitely not ideal the question is whether the alternatives are worse. [TS]

  Like weather. Turn it of complexity is actually overall worse and I don't know the answer to that. [TS]

  I'm sure there's ways I can improve it that I haven't thought of yet but. [TS]

  But you know like adding this whole different state of episodes of like this like Purgatory state which would be [TS]

  confusing a lot of people would never even realize they could go back and get them [TS]

  and the story of people be very upset by it and they would be more work [TS]

  and more complicated I mean more weird bug edge his potential So like the orange people would never know. [TS]

  Anyway you can always you can always make it a setting in a case five minutes you do it in fact five minutes the other [TS]

  way thing that like I mean there's limited space for navigation here [TS]

  but like I wanted to show my wife the directory today and I had to think now where was the directory [TS]

  and said look at the top it's I found it really should be given Marco stubborn down low and I am now [TS]

  and then a plus I agree with the icon I don't like here. Well that's not fair. [TS]

  I think that the icon work is a perfectly nice icon I'm just saying that it is the symbol for settings anyway [TS]

  and I had to think like well it's not going to be under downloads because it's a directory. [TS]

  The little Plus thing with a document I had to keep reinforcing to myself then that means that playlist right. [TS]

  Yeah yeah and so the plus is like what. [TS]

  By a process of elimination it has to be the plus to see the director make sense because you're adding a pod aghast [TS]

  kind of like it's like I expect it to be like the search but it's also the directory. Anyway my search for A.T.P. [TS]

  and Didn't find as part of her bug report you really got that one too. [TS]

  Well it's probably somewhere in my it's now my five hundred ninety e-mails some time I mean you know someone tweeted My [TS]

  wife showed to me and I said take a screenshot [TS]

  and send it to Marco you can use buckshot put a big red arrow Beside I think she actually did email you about it [TS]

  but anyway that that has to do it like we have to put it to be somewhere in our meditator description [TS]

  or something for that to work out on your terms. [TS]

  You know what your option is when you want the application to have a gigantic big subscribed. [TS]

  Well it's already in the in the directory it's it's in the tech category which is the top left category [TS]

  and directories. Anyway that's that's that's plenty for now. [TS]

  So the important thing here is that I shipped before fast text for I was seven. I cannot believe I beat you. [TS]

  I've to be honest I've worked on fast and it's like once maybe twice since I was seven came out [TS]

  but that doesn't negate your point which is that you wrote what three quarters of an application in the time that I [TS]

  couldn't basically just recompile for I was seven. [TS]

  The I'm so happy when you when you first joked about that it was probably six months ago probably [TS]

  and I thought for sure oh yeah I'm all I want for sure I'd make it but I haven't I haven't found the time to move. [TS]

  That makes me so happy. It did I did it twice I can even be upset. [TS]

  Well certainly not to you anyway because I did it to myself. [TS]