The Accidental Tech Podcast

77: Full-Stack Businessperson

 

  Oh my goodness. His sausages are wonderful. If I gave you a playlist of M P three S. [TS]

  and It lasted say half an hour to forty five minutes would you play that instead of that god awful crap that you make [TS]

  everyone listen to every week. Probably not but I would at least be willing to consider it. [TS]

  Her honesty is both annoying and appreciated all at the same. [TS]

  Yeah I mean since chances are not great I'll tell you that but but I would consider it. [TS]

  Fair enough but as everyone in the chat room thanking you don't know the music yet. [TS]

  That's a good point I mean what if it's just like a bunch of Dave Matthews Band like is that really an improvement. [TS]

  I would argue not it it obviously would not be a bunch of Dave Matthews The only reason I would play a bunch of Dave [TS]

  Matthews is if I had absolute control of the live stream which would never happen [TS]

  and B I did it just to troll Marco which I don't think I care enough so I would like to offer my services as unofficial [TS]

  official D.J. or Official unofficial D.J. If you will if you ever find the need arises. [TS]

  I'm actually curious John what Lluvia your playlist. [TS]

  I don't know if I throw in some video game soundtracks some mash ups that I like weird things I would probably do is [TS]

  not going to like play songs that everyone's heard before give us boring. [TS]

  Well that's why I play fish because no one listens to it except me. [TS]

  I will say that I did find out I don't member who is you John that told me. [TS]

  But somebody pointed out to me that the journey soundtrack was available on i Tunes and it was like five [TS]

  or ten bucks and I pretty much insta bought that was me of course. [TS]

  OK I thought of my venue but I wasn't sure and it is excellent. [TS]

  So do you remember the transportation soundtrack was like really snazzy and snappy jazz. [TS]

  Yeah yeah it was actually pretty good. It was pretty good. Somebody eventually like made M P three S. [TS]

  Because was all MITI I believe just in a different. Extension file extension. [TS]

  But really it was just Mitty and somebody took the Middies and like sampled them [TS]

  or recorded I don't know what the correct term is [TS]

  but did something with them to create like a really good sounding M P three S. [TS]

  And at one point or another I had it long since lost it. [TS]

  I'm sure that the community of transfer take Hoon revivalists which is quite large actually [TS]

  and has I mean because if anyone out there is a fan of prints were taken and you don't know about open T.T.D. [TS]

  Let me tell you about open T.D.D. [TS]

  Fans have basically rewritten the entire engine of the game [TS]

  and it runs on everything it runs on Macs Linux Windows some a couple he leave important i Pad here [TS]

  and there over the i Pad ports are terrible but it mainly runs on MAC Windows and Linux and it is so good [TS]

  and they've added features to the game and even proving that like improve the the path finding of the trains [TS]

  and everything they've added different features they have a whole new signals hype and they say was more useful. [TS]

  It's fantastic. [TS]

  Oh man if if you if you ever played transfer take who never even Sim City two thousand [TS]

  and you're into trains at all you're going to love open T.T.D. and It's free. [TS]

  Yeah it's really fantastic in fact I think we've mentioned this on the show at some point or another [TS]

  but transports Akun in Visual Basic one were pretty much how you and I became friends. That's right. [TS]

  Yep the combination of those two that night in utter fear of the outdoors. [TS]

  Yeah that probably could have it doesn't mean we would have found something else to do inside of your computer. [TS]

  We didn't have those to the street the only time I've ever seen it was to warp those were the days. [TS]

  I got English I feel like O S two needs like a guy in wish bell just like file systems and each of us pluses. [TS]

  John's bell some some kind of like dull funk like you know to warp. But goodness what's going on. Any follow up. [TS]

  Yeah I thought when I remember Salva feeling lonely just like laughed off and follow. [TS]

  But I don't I qualify as well though I did it was the beginning of the show I just knew that [TS]

  when I'm going to do show no it's this makes it into the show that that I would want to look at it there. [TS]

  So it's not strictly follow up I'm sorry for tainting the sanctity of your follow up. [TS]

  We're talking about Apple Mail and Mavericks and the G. [TS]

  Mail related bugs and how the public beta program for Yosemite might help catch some potential bugs. [TS]

  Michael sigh I really hope I'm pronouncing that last name correctly. [TS]

  Tweeted or e-mailed one of the other the other alternate theory for the G. [TS]

  Mail bug it was not so much that Apple didn't catch it in Mavericks it's just that it was difficult to figure out how [TS]

  to fix in time for the ship date and they just shipped knowing that there were bugs [TS]

  and knowing they plan to fix them and were working on The Fix long before maverick ship [TS]

  and ship the fix as soon as they got it fixed. Considering there's a second party involved they're getting like G. [TS]

  Mail on the other end over there and maybe a bug that involves Google and also involved Apple. [TS]

  It's plausible theory and we didn't mention [TS]

  and on last show so I thought I just mentioned now I don't think it's worth mentioning so in the context of those who [TS]

  are talking about the G. Mail bug in Maverick's point No And and you know G. [TS]

  Mail various intended and everything [TS]

  and I believe John I believe you would asserted that certainly some people in Google use Apple Mail and there is [TS]

  and there's enough of them to be worth them making sure it works [TS]

  and I said I'd be pretty surprised if there were any significant portion of people who work for Google using an Apple [TS]

  Mail and I asked if anybody knew this they could write in [TS]

  and we heard from a few people who work at Google who said you know universally they all said nobody there uses Apple [TS]

  Mail or you know effectively nobody but they also that they've never seen anyone use it [TS]

  and pretty much everyone uses email because you know the workflow that are built around it [TS]

  and everything it's like Apple Mail's presence in among Google employees is apparently nearly zero which does not [TS]

  surprise me. Makes you wonder what kind of work flows to there like one of the. [TS]

  I was like oh I tried to use Apple Maps. They also that Macs are very prevalent there which you already know. [TS]

  Right so if it ever got Macs and one of the persons like when I came I tried using Apple Mail [TS]

  but it was like not the thing to do. [TS]

  Like everyone was using G M L And I'm wondering if they have some kind of like plugins [TS]

  or urge email labs things like what is it about the web interface that kind of makes it so that Apple Mail isn't viable [TS]

  if you're just doing mail stuff you know fine [TS]

  but I was like What is the is that just like peer pressure that everybody's using mail as it gets maybe integration [TS]

  with Google calendar or something I don't know [TS]

  but anyway yeah I guess they're not motivated to make it work with Apple Mail. [TS]

  But it's interesting to me that there is that. [TS]

  That it's that lease that one person felt like there was you know that it was not even a viable thing to do not just [TS]

  like personal preference [TS]

  but just like once you're in Google you're going to use email because the way it's done right you know it would be [TS]

  difficult for you to use that will melt just a bit and whether that was technical political or both. [TS]

  I think it was kind of less imagination but I'm guessing it's probably some of both. [TS]

  The weird thing about the political angle is like oh you know well it's like dog food like why wouldn't if you're not [TS]

  using your own mail client obviously than your own mouth white socks [TS]

  and you know like you could use your own your own things should be good enough for you to use. [TS]

  But like like I said and what wasn't it wasn't contradicted by any of the e-mails. [TS]

  Macs are all over the place in Google and how is that not a contradiction. [TS]

  You know in terms of like why [TS]

  or why a Chromebook not good enough for everybody I mean I guess Bill doesn't really make a sort of full fledged [TS]

  computer but for developers or whatever but they're there you know arch rival Apple they're using all their hardware [TS]

  and side I mean they're not using the phones I assume [TS]

  but for the laptops that are all mac so makes you wonder if like is Google motivated to make a sort of non Chromebook [TS]

  full fledged laptop I don't know though if it would run. [TS]

  I mean throwing out windows so they're like they're internally conflicted no matter what. [TS]

  Well [TS]

  and there is a whole I mean I think a lot of this is is kind of you know company culture as well like there's a whole [TS]

  lot of people out there. Who use a mac as their computing platform. [TS]

  But aren't all in on Apple's other stuff you know they use Chrome the browser they probably use G.-Mail in in a web [TS]

  window [TS]

  or something of their mail client like there's a whole lot of people out there who function that way just fine [TS]

  and willingly and happily because that's just their preference [TS]

  and I would imagine those people are more likely to want to work for Google than somebody who's all in the whole of [TS]

  Apple stuff. [TS]

  So you know probably among their employees going to self-selecting were like their employees probably just want to use [TS]

  Google stuff in the in its native interface because that's just their preference [TS]

  and it's one of the reasons they work there. [TS]

  But even so you've got chrome as your browser [TS]

  and then you have a bunch of terminal windows in which you run like emacs or something [TS]

  or maybe you have a favorite text but it's and that's like the whole experience [TS]

  but I'm like why do you need Apple hardware Why can't you get by with a chrome book that you know you know how you [TS]

  locally compiling things and go in C. Plus plus is that why you need to have a better C.P.U. [TS]

  Than the Chromebook you just want nicer hardware like you know I'm not that's not much soul searching searching about [TS]

  this because they're all that I Congress going to Apple hardware and then [TS]

  when I use it I mean the all Google services I'm using you know whatever weird version of Text Mate that I've kept left [TS]

  over I'm using the area Macs or whatever so I don't think there's much of an apple in their face miss [TS]

  but they're still using Apple hardware [TS]

  and I have to think that if Google continues this kind of Microsoft like march towards There is no market we don't want [TS]

  there is nothing we can do there is no reason we should rely on everybody like who really really crept up on that they [TS]

  didn't start off that way [TS]

  but now it just seems like if they were Microsoft like is there any business they don't want is there anything having [TS]

  to do with personal computers that they don't want to like well they're not you know they make applications [TS]

  but they don't make their tools well they make a compiler [TS]

  but they don't make it out you are going to make an ID Well they make all the applications there is do you know basic [TS]

  office OK Well now to have a paint you know well they don't make games you look at a flight simulator game consuls like [TS]

  it was like I want to do everything and Google is slowly going. So far Google doesn't want to do P.C. [TS]

  Hardware like the Chromebook is close kind of they're going to supersede P.C. [TS]

  Hardware with something that's not as problematic as a P.C. [TS]

  and Maybe they'll succeed in that someday but I have my eye on Google's megalomania. [TS]

  Certainly the apple that we just discussed last week about the Apple I.B.M. [TS]

  Thing is plenty of things that Apple doesn't want to do. [TS]

  Like it still doesn't really want to touch enterprise a ten foot pole which is why it's having a ten foot pole in [TS]

  I.B.M. Touch it for them. Is there anywhere to go from here other than some something awesome. [TS]

  Well actually before we do have a phone call I hope you have like follow up a draw like you have you CAN you were [TS]

  holding you you had you know you have to get some kind of fall out. Well so the Apple I.B.M. [TS]

  Thing we got some feedback from people who are like you know you're too down an apple about the Enterprise actually do [TS]

  a lot of enterprise and I tried to express that [TS]

  and I showed is that it's not like Apple really ignores it like they do do a lot of things for the enterprise they have [TS]

  come a long way but the question is always where are they willing to commit. [TS]

  Are they willing to go to the lengths that other enterprise companies go to so that you can the feedback we got were [TS]

  one to the people saying Apple is really doing much better in the enterprise they're not nearly as bad as you think [TS]

  they are and the other is are people saying as far as Apple has come they're still bad in reason for reasons X. Y. [TS]

  and Z. [TS]

  So like both of those are true [TS]

  or like it's not they're not bolting a different Apple acing the same outfit is looking at from two to respective [TS]

  wonder they come such a long way and are so much better now than it used to be [TS]

  and the other is that compared to the companies that build themselves around serving the enterprise there Apple is [TS]

  still not willing to do that all the things the enterprise wants out of them and [TS]

  and that's the best that been around forever [TS]

  and the question I guess I show is always what's Apple going to do about that they're going to continue to act this way [TS]

  to kind of turn their nose up at it [TS]

  but do enough to sort of get a little bit of this isn't sort of they feel like they want more of this [TS]

  and I think they feel like they do one more of the business [TS]

  but they don't want to change them they don't want to change their own behavior to get more that businesses want to [TS]

  someone else. Augment their existing infrastructure and support to get more of that. [TS]

  Yes indirectly we are sponsored this week once again by our friend Mal Xander at need need is a very fine retailer [TS]

  and lifestyle magazine for men. [TS]

  And it kind of came out of the biopic podcast and away [TS]

  and so you figure it has to be pretty interesting if it came out of that right. [TS]

  Each month need curious and sells a limited quantity of exclusive products from the world's top men's brands. [TS]

  These collections are presented in the form of a monthly editorial built around a certain theme [TS]

  and are shot by local independent photographers. [TS]

  And if I may say so myself they all look really stylish and awesome beyond clothing which they have a lot of. [TS]

  They also sell coffee literature furniture and lots of other cool stuff. Need is also expanding. [TS]

  Soon they will localized to certain cities around the world the first of which will be London [TS]

  and I'm guessing that London England or the U.K. England. I never know. Great Britain void. [TS]

  I'm pretty sure one of the leaders in England I don't know what or how to refer there as the rest of it [TS]

  but it's an England sorry if I offended the entire U.K. [TS]

  England Great Britain continent sub continent island OK so need is only eight months old [TS]

  but they will already be one of the primary sponsors of the New York Fashion Week. [TS]

  Now I actually know what this is because my wife watches Project Runway do you guys actually know what Fashion Week is [TS]

  it something in New York City where a bunch of fashionable people descend upon New York [TS]

  and make everyone else feel poor. [TS]

  It's a really good idea too to sponsor this if you're a clothing company [TS]

  and he's already doing it because Fashion Week is huge it is like in New York has all these stupid things like they [TS]

  have like internet week and all this crap that they try to boost other industries [TS]

  and make them make make these like events all trying to mimic Fashion Week poorly Fashion Week is the real thing. [TS]

  It's what everyone else is trying to be it's such a huge deal New York need is sponsoring Fashion Week. [TS]

  They'll be bring along small independent brands to show off the company [TS]

  and its aspirations in the midst of the world of high fashion. [TS]

  Another word in their words they want to tell everyone about. [TS]

  Turning up working independently and telling great stories in the traditional world of exclusivity and brands. [TS]

  Anyway going to need addition dot com And that's not the math it's the easy addition need addition dot com Check out [TS]

  their collection and it changes every month. Seriously add this to your R.S.S. Reader. [TS]

  It's one post a month I mean come up if you still use our sets we'll get to that but I still use our set [TS]

  and I have it in my arms as reader. Anyone who places an order with need and was sent from A.T.P. [TS]

  Can send an email afterwards to hello at need addition dot com with the subject line. [TS]

  New York fashion week to commemorate a special occasion. [TS]

  They will then throw in a bunch of extras with those orders before they ship things like magazines field no socks [TS]

  scarves etc and then you'll be put in a list to get twenty five percent off your next order [TS]

  and I've been doing this offer for a couple of weeks now. [TS]

  Eighty people are sinners if you have multiple orders where you've emailed them and gotten a twenty five percent off [TS]

  and that sort of thing. [TS]

  You can stack that so you can get you can collect to them and get fifty percent off an order after that. [TS]

  So just for A.T.P. [TS]

  Listeners they're really nice to us [TS]

  and most of all though the first five orders will receive one of five limited edition. [TS]

  Never to be publicly sold need branded hats. Now I don't have a lot of hair so hats are very useful. [TS]

  Need produced a need Evarts field collaboration hat if it's field is the company that created the original baseball cap [TS]

  apparently these hats really worth about fifty dollars if they were sold at retail [TS]

  but they're not going to be there only There's a five limited edition hats [TS]

  and unless you have a leave you get it for free right. [TS]

  Yeah they will just toss a sense of the first five orders that email them with this email Hello I need additional comma [TS]

  after you hear this with a sort of one New York Fashion Week after you place an order this is a great deal I might do [TS]

  that I might take one of these before the way in a live stream. [TS]

  Anyway thank you thank you very much for NEED going to need addition dot com to check it out. [TS]

  I have a request for that ad read can you put in like Ragtime by on a commute. You know what I'm talking about. [TS]

  See I love I love [TS]

  and need sponsors because I can totally mess up the entire real impetus for all sorts of my own personal crap into it [TS]

  and it doesn't matter because Matt is like a friend of ours so he doesn't really mind [TS]

  and it still works because people keep ordering stuff so it's both a great thing for that matter is doing for us [TS]

  and greeting their listeners are doing for Matt and for us indirectly by buying stuff from his company anyway even [TS]

  when I fumble through the reply that right so I told you I had a piece of follow up that I know that's what it was I [TS]

  was stalling so I could remember John house are you. That's your follow up. [TS]

  Yes I do you're going to talk about Apple I.B.M. [TS]

  Stuff input here dad but no car when he had nothing now for use to go on. Slowly it's terrible for items. [TS]

  Just as like as like a dark cloud over my life [TS]

  and I just feel like it's never going to get done I don't have to end up taking off time from work to get done [TS]

  and they keep changing things and thing though doesn't work [TS]

  and you trying to review anything has to do with the network [TS]

  and like the seeds are coming out so I go this functional is building quite work Yadin [TS]

  and all the stuff I don't mention you tried it doesn't work out like well does it not work it is broken [TS]

  or is not work it's still like months from relays and I can't really write about it [TS]

  and I'm going back to stuff I've already written [TS]

  and changing it because I had this big paragraph complaining about this [TS]

  but then they changed that So it out of the complaint anymore. [TS]

  Like yeah I have to have notes in my things like remember to talk about this [TS]

  and then I have to go back two weeks later [TS]

  and remove that notice oh actually no change so you don't have to making progress. [TS]

  I need to plow bravely forward and just get something written and then go back [TS]

  and change it even though it keeps its data and I don't know that Cheney more things than usual [TS]

  or if I'm writing too early about things that I have complaints about them. It's going slowly depressing. [TS]

  So some I related you had tweeted earlier today that you had something to the order of four [TS]

  or five machines on your desk [TS]

  and any time you did anything you were you were in you were never using the wrong keyboard and mouse [TS]

  and I had suggested in from your snarky reply I assume many had suggested that you should use what is it synergy is [TS]

  that right. [TS]

  Yeah well see other people find you know people don't know [TS]

  and I'll bet you of all people should know that I know it's energy is I was encouraging you to better yourself by using [TS]

  synergy. [TS]

  I know all about the energy I had I don't want to don't I don't need it for this like it's just a temporary situation. [TS]

  I'm not trying to create a set up where I have a system where I can use five computers once I just have to do it at [TS]

  remote desktop is the worst if you can kind of keep it straight if you like for the like laptops [TS]

  and the Modesto Bee You got to keep it straight. [TS]

  Things are physically separated [TS]

  but once you bring Remote Desktop into the mix then it's game over because now like you have the same screen three [TS]

  times because I you know I've got the original screen and then the remote screen [TS]

  and then my regular screen that it's in [TS]

  and then if road test opposite the front door then it gets all your keyboard focus so you're like quicksilver shortcut [TS]

  goes to the remote desktop not to the thing over there but it's just it's madness. [TS]

  Just quitting closing the wrong windows just for hours at a time slowly going mad [TS]

  but Cinergy would fix this for you my friend. And it doesn't take them now it would not and would not. [TS]

  I mean thirty has downsides as well and it's just another layer of stuff it's the same reason I don't use screen [TS]

  or team ox right. [TS]

  Like I know I recognize all the benefits I have experimented with them [TS]

  but you know it's always something like a screen you like I don't want to take you know control I want you to remap [TS]

  though I don't want to have any of my keystrokes [TS]

  and you know how I get the synergy doing weird things with making using a regular computer feel strange things with the [TS]

  Command key is just it's not I'm not going to try to. Plus that's not really action but it's a diversion. Like. [TS]

  I I don't need to be [TS]

  but I should be doing is making for a partisan interviewer not trying to tweak my setup that helps me do the review [TS]

  like I do enough of that of just sitting here and using Yosemite [TS]

  and doing experiments trying to try to figure out how I can accurately write a single sentence I spent like you know [TS]

  forty five minutes hour experimenting with a thing to say what can I say about this. [TS]

  What is the truth of this thing and then it's like well I wrote one sentence tonight and I spent an hour [TS]

  and half an hour. Tired need to go to bed at this rate I'll be done in ten years. [TS]

  So their view is going excellently is what I'm hearing us. [TS]

  Well since I've asked what's going on with overcast I'm fixing bugs basically. [TS]

  Yeah that's about it really I'm fixing up the bugs the sales are going pretty well still obviously it's down [TS]

  substantially from the first few days [TS]

  but it seems to be leveling off now which is nice because now it's now only able to predict roughly what it will be in [TS]

  you know next month and so far I'm very happy with it. [TS]

  Have you cranked back on the initial server build out form whatever you want to call it. [TS]

  I actually haven't and so far I'm keeping all eight of the well heads and the reason why is so as. [TS]

  So before you know I have I have one FI drawing server that hit its entire purpose is to crawl the feeds [TS]

  and it can be maxed out you know it can be like hammered at C.P. [TS]

  Use because it doesn't matter because that is only job [TS]

  and so what I have what I have going at launch I had these eight web servers up front to help you know take web [TS]

  requests [TS]

  and then very quickly after launch my feed server got overwhelmed with just the queue was backing up because so many [TS]

  people were adding more feeds [TS]

  and I was already crawling a lot of people added a lot more than I expected so I started I ran additional crawling [TS]

  processes under nice on the web servers and so in theory what I think this will do and. [TS]

  What it is doing so far is all the Web servers I have now burst capacity so you know when a popular show. [TS]

  Like right now I mean our show is one of the is one of the top shows in overcast [TS]

  or something I think is like twenty thousand people or something to strive to in Africa. [TS]

  So [TS]

  when a new episode of the show is published I send twenty thousand Push Notifications within the span of a few seconds [TS]

  and any of those devices that are connected to the Internet will immediately try to fetch performance in Qwest [TS]

  basically [TS]

  and so you might have you know twenty thousand devices all performing sinks within that within the first few seconds of [TS]

  that request going out and so I need some kind of burst capacity for when that happens. [TS]

  So what I'm doing now is I have servers and so I am keeping the additional crawlers running on ice. [TS]

  So what I think should happen is I'll have that bridge capacity when I need it [TS]

  when a new IP sort of popular comes out and all the rest of it and [TS]

  when that happens all those processes that are nice will be prioritized [TS]

  and will you know move the cue for other things will slow down for a minute or two [TS]

  and then the rest of the time I have all this additional fee capacity so I think I think this is my original plan was [TS]

  to you know that the FI crawling on those observers are going to be temporary [TS]

  and that once everything calmed down I would eliminate you know half of them maybe [TS]

  and then set up a dedicated feed server to crawl more feeds that way [TS]

  but I think we're going to keep it the way it is because it is in the balance of a lot less wasted capacity [TS]

  and we would said in the past that whatever the sum total of the monthly cost for these ten servers is considerably [TS]

  less than what you had last paid for Instapaper Is that correct. [TS]

  Yeah yeah I'd originally said it was like five forty I had to upgrade my backup server [TS]

  and our space on it so now to me more like six hundred [TS]

  but still yes a hundred bucks a month for for a lot of liner instances providing a lot of power a lot of computational [TS]

  power that I don't think is a bad deal at all. Nice. Anyway that's over Gotta go into a very low. [TS]

  Well and I'm very happy and I'm facing a lot of bugs. [TS]

  There still are some annoying ones [TS]

  but I think I actually got to the biggest ones in this update so I'm still working on a paper. [TS]

  I'll submit it probably in a few days. [TS]

  So do you feel like you're working just as hard as you were pre-launch and post-launch [TS]

  or if you kind of settled into a rhythm at this point you're able to breeze. [TS]

  I am able to breeze but it is still a lot of work. [TS]

  Email I'm still looking over the email I have I did I did hit bottom of the first batch. [TS]

  What's interesting is what people are requesting now so I'm still getting about one hundred emails a day [TS]

  and many of them I don't respond to you know I promised that I wasn't [TS]

  and I promised in the feedback form that I will read everything but I won't guarantee a response to everything [TS]

  and I'm keeping that promise so far I am reading everything [TS]

  and not respond to everything because I can't even reading a hundred emails a day takes takes a long time [TS]

  and a lot of them you know don't even need a response I don't even say as much you know. [TS]

  No response necessary and so I took them up on that offer usually. [TS]

  But what's interesting is that is that what people are asking for now is different from what people ask for on day one [TS]

  even even though the main feature set has not changed since then. [TS]

  And getting you know a couple bug reports certainly here [TS]

  and there because there are still some bugs that are affecting a lot of people which I'm very annoyed by [TS]

  and I'm trying to fix as quickly as I can. [TS]

  But like for example Day one had tons of requests for the two because they don't support streaming and video. [TS]

  It also had lots of requests for smaller features and preferences [TS]

  and behavioral preferences people wanted a different way they wanted episode management to be put a vacation option [TS]

  things like that like all sorts of different more granular options [TS]

  or different modes episodes could be in like one of the more calm ones on day on day one which I mentioned before was [TS]

  like a lot of people wanted it to be new but not downloaded and a lot of people want deleted. [TS]

  So just to also show whether they have been played or they were never played. [TS]

  So you know people are people requesting these different states things can be in of course all the management of the [TS]

  interface and the code that would go with that would be a lot. [TS]

  All that was really on day one and what I'm hearing from people now is substantially less of those requests [TS]

  and the requests from getting now are much nicer [TS]

  and more like you know it would be nice if someday maybe you added this not like I can't use a pod cast at a doesn't [TS]

  have this or I don't believe you know you shipped one point to without this [TS]

  but to a lot of the day one stuff was that and so [TS]

  and I think I mean my my theory on this was pretty obvious really you know I think I think day one everyone tried it [TS]

  who was into pod cast that's who who heard about it like there was a big rush of people who tried it [TS]

  and you know probably necessarily didn't want to like it maybe on some level because you nobody wants to change their [TS]

  workflow of their status. [TS]

  And also people who really do find those features like deal killers or you know anything I don't do that [TS]

  or that I do differently from what they want to do. That actually is a deal killer for them. [TS]

  So all of them I heard from on day one and I stopped hearing from them because they stopped looking at the app. [TS]

  So now what I'm hearing from who I'm hearing from other people who are actually using the app for the most part I mean [TS]

  you know there are new people discovering it every day but not nearly in the numbers as the first two days. [TS]

  So what you're getting now are actually on some level I think are actually more important to pay attention to because [TS]

  most of those people who are heard from on day one I'll probably never win them over. [TS]

  It's probably not worth a lot of effort to try to win them over. [TS]

  And there's a lot of people who use the app for whom it could be a little bit better with what might be a small change. [TS]

  And by catering to those people I build goodwill I build fans. [TS]

  I build customers and those people are the ones who will spread the app to their friends [TS]

  and so it's I think it's more important to make a smaller group. [TS]

  More fanatically happy about your app then to try to address the entire world with it. [TS]

  So John tell us about ARM based Macs we talk about this so many past life [TS]

  but I don't I don't know why it's coming up again I guess this is all we got to say. [TS]

  Wrote about it on his Monday note blog and then lets people link that including river [TS]

  and people talking about it again. [TS]

  Yes we'll talk about it again to I feel like we had this exact same discussion I pulled the Zach same numbers last time [TS]

  but I mean you know I don't know I guess I guess we'll talk about it again I don't think it was a very good article [TS]

  because it was it was based on a lot of assumptions about the relative chip pros [TS]

  and cons between our in our intel that are necessarily true or at least partially misinformed [TS]

  or not liking the notes file either I guess. Anyway so here are the stats I put in the file. [TS]

  Probably the same exact that I had last time. [TS]

  Boy should Apple not use Intel C.P.U.'s and its Macs anymore [TS]

  but instead use arm C.P.U.'s presumably of their own design [TS]

  and everyone suggesting that it has their reasons for suggesting it. [TS]

  One of the reason becomes a very often is that if they did that arm C.P. Use are more powerful than X. [TS]

  Eighty six and the second reason is that Apple would be master of its own destiny because Apple really wants to own [TS]

  and control all the important technologies that go into their devices. [TS]

  Witness their design of the A seven and their and their you know deep involvement in the manufacturing process [TS]

  and of course they do all the software as well to make a last minute applications and lovable [TS]

  and originally if you want to go back really far they investigated my understanding is that they investigated for the [TS]

  the i Phone project for an hour before a project can we make a phone [TS]

  and not do a deal with a carrier with a wireless carrier like is it feasible to do it on a wife I can we be our own [TS]

  or that acronym K.C. [TS]

  and The endo something like they look into all that turned out not to be feasible [TS]

  but they all think they were looking and it was like can we do this with. [TS]

  Out being beholden to somebody else and turns out the answer is no. [TS]

  So bomber for them so anyway this is along the same vein on the tech front though in the power thing every time I think [TS]

  about the power thing I think about you know just how far Intel's come in terms of power efficiency so we'll look at [TS]

  here I have stats for the current thirteen inch MacBook Air which is kind of my sort of standard bearer for Apple's [TS]

  middle of the road laptop does not have a gigantic battery it's pretty slim [TS]

  but on the other hand is a full fledged laptop and the performance is actually pretty good. [TS]

  So the current gender change MacBook Air is a fifty four watt our battery [TS]

  and apples as it gets about twelve hours battery life. [TS]

  Now in my own testing [TS]

  when I was doing Mavericks battery testing I found that number can get even bigger if you use it very lightly like you [TS]

  really are just doing like light web browsing and you know that my my battery test was very light [TS]

  and Mavericks it was like automated basically going to bunch of web pages switching tabs reloading web pages going to a [TS]

  text editor typing some random text saving the text document going in I was like that's type of stuff I was doing very [TS]

  light and I was getting you know fifteen hours out of it [TS]

  but they were twelve hours of Apple says the i Pad Air which is my standard bearer for the i O. S. [TS]

  ARM devices got the biggest fastest ARM C.P.U. [TS]

  In it it's got a pretty darn big battery because the i Pad Air is their biggest i Pad It is a I guess the number wrong [TS]

  in here. [TS]

  Thirty two point four one hour battery namecheck thirty two point four what our battery it is a typo [TS]

  and the note an Apple claims is good for ten hours of battery life. [TS]

  They said nine hours of use cellular data so if you do the math on that it ends up that the i Pad Air is about forty [TS]

  percent more energy efficient than the MacBook Air [TS]

  and here's how many watt hours give you how many hours of usage out of it [TS]

  and who knows if Apple's usage things are comparable like one of them. [TS]

  How are they coming up the twelve hour and over the map again what kind of activity they come up with it [TS]

  but the i Pad air tower that I realize it's [TS]

  but still they have better wins by like forty percent better wins by twenty five percent of the include cellular data. [TS]

  But the i Pad Air The name have it out so whatever. So it's like forty percent better energy efficiency. [TS]

  But then you look at you have to have some proxy for OK a twenty percent more energy efficient [TS]

  but how fast is the C.P.U. How does the eighty seven C.P.U. Compared to the C.P.U. and C.P.U. [TS]

  Benchmarking is a pain I just did the French because that's what everybody does whatever. [TS]

  It just this is the ballpark right so the MacBook Air geek bench compared to the i Pad air deep bench the navigator is [TS]

  two hundred thirty percent faster in single core and two hundred fifty percent faster multi-core. [TS]

  So an exchange for forty percent more energy efficiency it gives up two extra formants or two and a half expert form [TS]

  and so that that's a quite a gap to make up so you could say well you know arm processer more energy efficient. [TS]

  They're not more energy efficient when doing the same thing. [TS]

  Can conjecture that Apple switching to ARM is that they could switch ARM C.P.U. [TS]

  Is ignoring the chipset ignoring Thunderbolt and or and all the other technical [TS]

  and intellectual property issues that may prevent them from having this be feasible. Just the C.P.U. Can Apple make. [TS]

  Can Apple take an ARM chip [TS]

  and make it two hundred fifty percent faster while maintaining its forty percent energy efficiency advantage right. [TS]

  Because you know as you make it as as you make the C.P.U. More performant you're going to lose energy efficiency right. [TS]

  It's not like the i Pad Air is forty percent more energy efficient doing the same thing. [TS]

  It's WAY slower it's two times slower at least [TS]

  and this doesn't even get into like the relative comparisons of the embedded G P U's and forget about it. [TS]

  A squeegee be you and an act of pros and again the mac pro who knows what you would do with that. [TS]

  So there are a lot of just unanswered technical performance questions in terms of what would be. [TS]

  Putting aside the being master of your own destiny what would be the advantage for Apple to switch to arm. [TS]

  Technically speaking would you get a Mac. [TS]

  That last longer battery wise would you get a mac that performs at least as well as the existing Macs would you get max. [TS]

  I'm better. These are all unanswered questions we don't know I was saying of the gap right now. [TS]

  It does not make it seem like Apple like it's a gimme for Apple sale Apple could totally make a C.P.U. [TS]

  That is exactly as fast as the current MacBook Air is but is more energy efficient. [TS]

  I don't see that in the numbers I'm not saying it's impossible [TS]

  but nothing Apple has ever done so far has shown that it could do that. [TS]

  And the second aspect of this is evidently whether Broadwell delay is like bridal being delayed into next year which is [TS]

  why Apple had to rev its laptop line to say well OK we'll give you more RAM which is nice by the way give you more RAM [TS]

  and lower the prices because we're not going to have new laptops until we can get them to see abuse [TS]

  and so it's a bummer. [TS]

  I go [TS]

  and see if Apple you know if Apple made its own ARM chips they would have this problem because they wouldn't be reliant [TS]

  on intel and these delays wouldn't affect them because they would be masters of their own destiny. [TS]

  I don't much see that because in the in the race to say can we make an ARM chip that is good [TS]

  and has the same performance for a while as Intel things if you're going to have any shot at that you have to be using [TS]

  the same process size as Intel and the only person who can do the same process as Intel is Intel. [TS]

  So you'd still be relying on Intel the fab your fourteen nanometre ARM chips [TS]

  and if Intel can't get its fourteen on a meter X. Eighty six ships out the door. [TS]

  Chances of it being able to get your arm forty nine amidships out the door before in places like that a second door are [TS]

  very slim you have to get our intel to agree to feather in the first place then you have to get them to agree to give [TS]

  you prayer and then you have to say that the thing that stopping in government in X. [TS]

  Eighty six chips if working on a meter is just like a laziness or something [TS]

  and if only you know only Apple is whipping them along so I will see if Apple's master was on Destiny would have [TS]

  fourteen nanometre arms to be used for its next generation of macro care that have more performance for watt than the [TS]

  Intel ones and just I think was speaking I don't see it now doesn't mean they're not going to do it [TS]

  or they would do it and just make some excuses [TS]

  and eventually catch up because that's kind of an apple demo it's like like with the maps thing well we just can't have [TS]

  Google Maps anymore and our new maps are going to be worse and they could be worse for a long time possibly forever. [TS]

  But we just had to do it. That's always an option. [TS]

  I'm not saying Apple will never do this but on paper it does not look like a compelling change for me [TS]

  and this is even ignoring like the mac pro and all my set X. [TS]

  Eighty six games and the ability to run Windows and all that and even the rim of the I wonder how much that matters. [TS]

  My my feeling is that it probably matters a good amount still [TS]

  and I'm sure it's going down every year with how much that matters [TS]

  but I bet there's still a lot of people who run like the Windows version of Microsoft Office in virtualization at least [TS]

  right. [TS]

  Yeah that's exactly true and actually I recorded an episode of mac power users last night [TS]

  and one of the things we very briefly talked about is what happens if you know Macs go arm in [TS]

  or if they were certainly if they weren't Intel and that would be a showstopper for me or in. [TS]

  Additionally if there was a Intel mac and an arm Mac. [TS]

  What say they were both brand new you know Broadwell comes out but simultaneously there's an ARM based Mac. [TS]

  I would absolutely choose the Intel based mac for work at least because I believe in Windows at work. [TS]

  I mean I don't do use boot camp is boot camp even still a thing. Yeah it's still there. [TS]

  OK so I do it so I don't use boot camp or use whom are fusion but my point is is that I would I pretty much live in V.M. [TS]

  Ware Fusion at work [TS]

  and so for me to have really caused really bad in crummy virtualization would be a showstopper I would have to use one [TS]

  of those Dell behemoths if I didn't have an Intel mac and that's just a terrible life and nobody wants to leave. [TS]

  Yeah I mean I think you know to do an architecture transition. [TS]

  Again I would have to come with major gains and I think you know John everything you said is right [TS]

  and you know looking at what they would lose with with Windows compatibility [TS]

  and the cost of having all developers have to recombine you know as you said last time we talk about this [TS]

  or as I said at least you know going from Power P.C. To intel they use Rosetta to try to help transition along. [TS]

  The old stuff but that also worked primarily because the inputs are for so much faster. [TS]

  There was a huge performance jump on it when they made that transition. [TS]

  And here there probably wouldn't be that same performance jump in fact it might even get slower so it would not be an [TS]

  easy transition if you possible you know they could do it you know it's a different environment now [TS]

  when this isn't as important to developers in the mac app store. [TS]

  You know they're using Apple's Apple's Xcode toolkit and everything so Apple has a ship a cross compiler [TS]

  and make universal Viner's again like they could do it if they wanted to but it would not be a cheap [TS]

  or easy transition to make and so the question is whether it would be worth it. [TS]

  And I've been looking at these numbers and thinking about you know John you're writing about the fab capacity issue [TS]

  and I don't see it really being worth it to say I think they could actually make a pretty darn high performance ARM [TS]

  chip mostly because I like their integration like the fact that they control the compiler they control the language [TS]

  they they control the micro architecture of the chip. [TS]

  You can really get some impressive gains out of that [TS]

  but you still are always in the end faced with the problem of who the hell is going to fab the ship [TS]

  and if the answer is an Intel using their best process before they do it before at the same time as they do their own [TS]

  flagship chips then your answer as well doesn't matter how great your chip is if you have to fab size a generation [TS]

  behind what Intel does. [TS]

  How the hell are you going to compete on price performance with them like it is just a huge advantage to say you're a [TS]

  twenty two nanometers and work fourteen it's like you know like the bring of the X. [TS]

  Eighty six tackling all these crazy instructions like the X. [TS]

  Eighty six tax and then going down you know for it just always keeps going down [TS]

  and down because as the number of transistors in the chip goes up and up [TS]

  and even if you exclude cash which is a huge part of it but even or even if you screw the G.P.U. [TS]

  Like the the percentage of transistors you have to spend then I say six is so small that it's not even a factor like [TS]

  it's a factor you know in terms of elegance and it's just disgusting to think about those things being there [TS]

  and it would be nice if more of them get phased out but at this point it's like I say sixty four is. [TS]

  As it grows you can implement the old like sixteen bit instructions in crazy ass crap is never going to call this slow [TS]

  as you want with a few transistors you might like it it's just it's a tiny blip. [TS]

  It's not the kind of blip you can build a sustainable Frohman's advantage are you know like process [TS]

  and manufacturing costs are such a huge part of this and so in DOS to be a huge part in that I don't know the ins [TS]

  and outs of the details of people been talking about this but like C.B. [TS]

  Was one thing when you've got chipset you've got thunderbolt you've got whatever the current version of P.C.I. [TS]

  Express is and all that stuff and a lot of that stuff is tied up with either patterns [TS]

  or actual intellectual property that involves Intel so I don't think you can get away from Intel unless you know like [TS]

  and like let you do something like that I was devised I was like oh no thunderbolt over here we don't have U.S.P.S. [TS]

  Our own little widget it's got her own port on the side of it and we control everything [TS]

  but you can't can't quite do that with Macs yet we're also sponsored this week by a new sponsor. [TS]

  It is top Brewer going to top brewery USA dot com It's from a company called Scan [TS]

  and that this is interesting so Tom Brewer is a revolutionary coffee system that dispenses espresso coffee cappuccino [TS]

  lattes filtered sparkling water cold and hot filtered water [TS]

  and other drinks on demand via Bluetooth connection with just a tap on your I a lesser Android device copier is [TS]

  designed manufactured in Denmark a lot of things that are often come from Denmark they're difficult to pronounce such [TS]

  as Joerg Jensen is a Jensen electronics brand. [TS]

  I assume it was one of my tri friends that no one's ever heard of except for you know just been around forever. [TS]

  Ignorantly something eighties at least right. [TS]

  Also a Bang and Olufsen which you probably heard of them at least an Apple stores and everything [TS]

  and of course Lego which is singular and plural at the same time it is not it is Lego trademark brand bricks [TS]

  or something right so anyway leo comes from Denmark to great design [TS]

  and great coffee are also part of Denmark's culture. [TS]

  Now a top Brewer drinks are customizable and can be saved as favorites. You can have this thing if you if you prefer. [TS]

  Nine point five grams of pressure being the nearest restroom [TS]

  or over eight point five grams you can save your preference of a favorite and your favorite drink tap away. [TS]

  He can save you know whether you like more or less foam in your cap. You know all this stuff. Now it's cool. [TS]

  Top Gear You probably saw the circling around like the you know look at these cool gadgets kind of sites about a year [TS]

  ago when they first announced and showed it off. It looks just like a big like you know one of the U. [TS]

  Shaped kitchen taps. [TS]

  It is looks like a tap on a flat counter and all the machinery and reservoirs [TS]

  and everything for it are hidden in the countertop. [TS]

  It is it is the coolest like cleanest most modern looking thing I've seen in a long time. [TS]

  It's all you know all the machinery is hidden away and you can see this beautifully designed silver tap [TS]

  and it's really cool. And these are commercial great component in the topper. [TS]

  Now they target both home installations as well as small offices [TS]

  and commercial settings that includes a bird grinder for the coffee which is made of even the berg grinder is made of [TS]

  cast aluminum and it alone is thirteen pounds and is really you know high quality stuff in here. [TS]

  So Tom Brewer is the perfect marriage of beautiful design exquisite coffee and [TS]

  and here here's what you do you find one of these things are installed in your home. [TS]

  But first if you want to try go find one they have them installed various places around a lot a lot of cities these [TS]

  days and they're expanding very soon. So go find one of these. [TS]

  You install their app and then you can order from the app you can walk up the thing order it right from the app [TS]

  and then it makes your drink right there you don't have to interact with anybody. [TS]

  So I may be the very severe I have a problem with this I don't know but you don't interact with anybody [TS]

  or you know give your name to they can misspell in the cup [TS]

  or anything like that you just walk up to this thing with the app and it makes your preferred drink [TS]

  and you can walk up to any of these things anywhere anywhere that you find one in any city [TS]

  and the stores that have them or you can store one right in your home or office. [TS]

  So anyway go to topic Brewer USA dot com It is top Brewer USA dot com Check it out it's really. [TS]

  Sting and I think they're probably going to be big pretty soon. [TS]

  All right so the other thing that's been going around the Internet over the last week to week [TS]

  and a half maybe two weeks is whether or not anyone can make money in the Iowa SAP store. [TS]

  Mark are you making a funny story. [TS]

  Well I am right now actually [TS]

  and three months of flying for Marco to field I think the the actual full version of that is it is impossible for [TS]

  anyone to make money in the out start besides Marco a face with the name that's as Marco I'd like to rather be able to [TS]

  list. [TS]

  That's true I mean there's there's two problems really that that people face problem number one is getting noticed at [TS]

  all and ever having strong sales. [TS]

  You know so that's like you know my my reputation an existing audience gives me that kind of for free. [TS]

  Not entirely you know close [TS]

  but in Problem number two affect me as much as much as anybody else which is once you found [TS]

  and saturated the number of people who are going to ever buy your app what happens to your sales curve [TS]

  and how do you get more people to buy it who are not finding it or who are choosing not to buy it or who aren't even. [TS]

  Who are you know looking at the category and choosing one your competitors instead. [TS]

  And that's a look at a much harder problem and I don't have any benefits their over anyone else really [TS]

  and it's a hard problem to solve [TS]

  and so you know the the first problem you can you can you can kind of address by doing things like you know like like [TS]

  picking a category where there's less competition but there is still a market that's really hard to find though. [TS]

  You know a lot of times in a competition because it isn't very useful [TS]

  or you know it's a problem that it's very useful to like ten people in the world and you're one of them. [TS]

  So congratulations. [TS]

  It's going be hard to sell it and a lot of things are just like you know it's kind of cool [TS]

  but you know who's going to pay for it. [TS]

  And if the if it isn't that compelling to pay for even if it's kind of cool it's hard to get a lot of sales there. [TS]

  So you know we've seen a lot of these blog posts over the last couple of weeks on the problems in the App Store [TS]

  and how hard it is for developers to make a good living there [TS]

  and a lot of Eliphaz share numbers like actual numbers here's what we made which is unusual you know in most places [TS]

  talking about your salary is taboo. That's a whole other discussion about whether that should be that way. [TS]

  They're actually really can print money episode about that recently that you can find. [TS]

  It's interesting though to see because most of these people are revealing is that they're making a lot less money than [TS]

  people might have assumed and that a lot less money that then is worth continuing to work on it basically. [TS]

  And so you know this is started out by Jared Sinclair and his post about unread which is an R.S.S. [TS]

  Reader and it ends up it's made you know that number is like thirty thousand dollars over five time over a year. [TS]

  Right it's not like that you know I thought it was like forty ish [TS]

  but the point is it was in the thirty to fifty range let's say. [TS]

  Right yeah so you know and so it was you know below his expectations [TS]

  and makes it hard to justify a full time work on it if you know you know if you're a programmer in the United States [TS]

  paying for United States health insurance and everything and rent and or mortgage [TS]

  and everything else like it's pretty expensive to live here and if you're if you're making thirty thousand a year [TS]

  when you have a skill that you could make easily twice that probably more so than the area that you live in working for [TS]

  anybody else. That's kind of hard to justify. [TS]

  So I don't know Casey I mean when you think about as a person I mean people get mad [TS]

  when I talk about this because they anything I say people people say oh well you can't you this doesn't apply to you [TS]

  you can't say that it was work for market like people people are very mad at you when I talk about the so. [TS]

  So OK you are more normal than I am and people tend to like you a lot more so what do you think of this. [TS]

  Right so I think it's a tough thing [TS]

  and there's been a bunch of things that a friend of the show underscore David Smith has posted both in text form in an [TS]

  audible form about this. [TS]

  I think he is a good counterpoint to yours in so far as he is also successful [TS]

  but he does it by way of diversification whereas you do it by way of really dumping all of your time into one app [TS]

  and both of those are perfectly valid ways of going about it. [TS]

  For me I don't think I'm going to ever post this in a blog post or anything but I was looking at fast text numbers [TS]

  and in brief the first check I got for from Apple was on the end of September and twenty ten [TS]

  and it was forty three dollars [TS]

  and I was unbelievably excited about that because I had actually earned some modicum of money on the App Store. [TS]

  I didn't earn a lot in. [TS]

  If we care I could go in the blow by blow of how much I earned [TS]

  but suffice to say it wasn't until sometime during A.T.P.'s run that I finally cracked in to get into profit for a fast [TS]

  text and I was just tearing up all the numbers. [TS]

  And if I added things correctly I am one hundred forty three dollars in the black That counts for all the profit I've [TS]

  made which is about all the all the money I've made which is about six hundred fifty bucks minus five years in the App [TS]

  Store which is about one hundred bucks a pop minus the forty dollars I spent on a pasty express to make the world's [TS]

  worst icon with feet. I like that. Well you know it's attracting D.C. [TS]

  Tickets or travel or the price he paid for the inferior footless I counted replaced. Well I have not. [TS]

  I was my friend Jacob so I actually did not charge me for that icon he did it out of the goodness of his heart because [TS]

  he's awesome and I don't know if he's doing contract work anymore but if you want to get I can talk to him anyway [TS]

  but I don't count how do I tell you a prophet. Well yes and no. [TS]

  Of the four years I've been to see I think work paid for three of them if I'm not mistaken. [TS]

  So you could argue that that that one year would put me heavily in the red but I consider that slightly ancillary [TS]

  and we can get into a whole debate as to whether or not that's reasonable. [TS]

  Let's take as completely unrelated let's assume I've never been a W.D.C. [TS]

  Still over five years because fast text last season launched shortly after I was four came out in. [TS]

  So in the five or so years that it's been out I've earned one hundred forty three dollars. [TS]

  Now I've done nothing to promote it other than occasionally mentioning it here and that's about it. [TS]

  And to be honest especially now it's getting a little old getting a little long in the tooth. [TS]

  I need to find some time to work on it [TS]

  but simply because I know I can't believe it over to ship before your Iowa seven [TS]

  and the really embarrassing thing is that the Iowa state is going to beat me too. [TS]

  Yes I did work on it briefly two weeks ago and I What was it that you had said can't shoot the top layer. [TS]

  Yes that got me halfway there but I'm not quite through yet and because I'm too damn stubborn to use Springs [TS]

  and struts. I still haven't updated it then anyway. [TS]

  But yes over the course of five years having done no real marketing whatsoever I've earned one hundred forty three [TS]

  dollars and I'm happy with that I mean I'm certainly not complaining about it [TS]

  but I certainly wouldn't be leaving my job for one hundred forty three dollars over five years. I mean that's. [TS]

  That's like one nice meal. If by now you see mean Pinera bread every half year to a year if you know what I mean. [TS]

  So it's it's a hard in in Justin Williams has been talking in his snarky way which I love but he's been talking on [TS]

  and off about that you know what business is just hard. Business is hard. [TS]

  And that's that's the thing is that you've got to be a business man before woman before your a developer [TS]

  and a lot of cases and I think Marco you've done pretty well with that by finding a nice Schmich nice whatever. [TS]

  Finding a copy [TS]

  and then finding a Cutty that's not that's not terribly well served up until overcast in the case of overcast finding a [TS]

  way to make it something unique and we'll see over time or you'll see over time whether or not that's sustainable. [TS]

  But I underscore David Smith by comparison has his hands in a lot of different pots and [TS]

  and that's what keeps him profitable and able to be independent [TS]

  and something mention in the chat a moment ago well yeah you know you say you didn't do any real marketing [TS]

  but well you mentioned it on A.T.P. and That's marketing and you know that's a fair point. [TS]

  That's an absolutely fair point but OK let's assume that that's a quote unquote real marketing. [TS]

  I still have only heard one hundred fifty pucks over five years you know so that's real marketing. [TS]

  That means it's even more depressing than we originally thought. [TS]

  So some of it is all sponsored by fast Xed the great you know so I don't know it's I long so much I long so much to be [TS]

  able to go independent and do my own thing and not work for the man and I love my job I truly do. [TS]

  But it would be so neat to be like you or underscore and B be able to to be be my own person if you will [TS]

  and you know it may get air quotes but in the end of the day. [TS]

  I don't really have a terribly stressful job and as long as I show up [TS]

  and do decent work I'm going to maintain that not terribly stressful job and there's a lot to be said for that [TS]

  and I think as always the grass is greener on the other side and I you know I have a I have it pretty easy all told. [TS]

  So so young and foolish to put the show up every day and do good work and keep my job. [TS]

  After after my first child was born lost my job and a way of lots of fun. [TS]

  But Job numbers speak them or three or something. [TS]

  This is four and did you volunteer voluntarily leave all the previous jobs. Thus far yes. [TS]

  So you're a quitter you're going to have what I'm saying is chances are good that you're going to have more jobs in [TS]

  your life and if and I think it's a reasonable chance that some of those transitions will happen not by your choice. [TS]

  It is certainly possible I tend to try to pick a company that from everything I can tell is stable [TS]

  and from that into the best of my ability. [TS]

  I am certainly not the most important person there but I am not the low hanging fruit if you will. [TS]

  But you're right I mean my our the company that I work for it could fold tomorrow and I could be none the wiser. [TS]

  Well if I went on the chance of an episode of quit [TS]

  but like you know the whole the whole thing is like the illusion of stability versus the non-A lose like that the panic [TS]

  that you feel in the stress that you feel about dog under my own thing [TS]

  but that means it's all on me whereas like well now I'm not doing my own thing it's not on me [TS]

  but at least I have security where you really don't have security but it kind of feels like you do. [TS]

  So the reality is that depending on you depending on your personality trait. [TS]

  Bottom line is do you feel more stressed are you more stressed in situation every situation be regardless of whether [TS]

  the situation A and B. Are actually comparable in any way. Like just because you feel safer in a job doesn't mean. [TS]

  It is safer [TS]

  but feeling safer is like ninety percent of the battle anyway like if you if you you know if you have a personality [TS]

  where if you were to go off on your own all you do is stress all the time you know that that wouldn't be a good thing [TS]

  for you even if it was exactly comparable risk wise in reality it just matters how you feel. [TS]

  But like all this stuff on the Web going around about the App Store viability I have to think that it's motivated by [TS]

  like if it's knows there's no point writing about this if there is not if it's on an angle [TS]

  and the angle I see a lot is someone who's not me is to blame for my difficulties and not in a bad way as ever [TS]

  and I think that was like it was it was just on you you're like well I recall in case you think he's not running post [TS]

  complaining about an artist make money at a fast X. Whose fault is that that you know if I say well c'est X. [TS]

  A awesome super dooper app has hundreds not has it been updated religiously to keep up with latest techno it has not [TS]

  that you're a jerk. [TS]

  You know it's not like you're searching for like why can I make money out you know wow you know [TS]

  and make money off as that you know like [TS]

  and that's why you're not writing a blog post about it whereas other people like JARRETT You know they'd say like I [TS]

  made a great app. I love it. [TS]

  It embodies my own ideals I think the interface is great I think it does something useful I really like the way it [TS]

  works I worked hard on it it's bug free have kept it updated to use latest technologies [TS]

  and then it's like why why aren't I successful and you're not going to turn that on yourself. [TS]

  Because I made an awesome map I did a good job [TS]

  but as I look at all the other apps that are out there mine is least as good as them is not better. [TS]

  So you're going to immediately be looking for some reason why you didn't succeed it doesn't have to do with your own [TS]

  personal failings [TS]

  and in most cases not really your fault like you did do a good job on the things you care about like you did make [TS]

  and I see why it is a good at but is bug free don't do something useful [TS]

  but then you get all the things that Mark was talking about. All right well then whose fault is it. [TS]

  Well maybe you wrote an app that has has the potential customer base of ten people they all voted already. [TS]

  Right now maybe maybe your case doesn't match other people's tastes like if you have a beautiful bug free nice [TS]

  interfaced application for like you know counting oranges. [TS]

  How many people in the world need to count oranges may be just a hobby of yours or Trainspotting [TS]

  or sent some other straight like you have so much more to [TS]

  and that's where the end of the business maybe you could be going to maybe it's already crowded so it's over then [TS]

  that's kind of boring too that's where a lot of these things get to is like oh just business is hard or whatever [TS]

  but everyone is looking for something more interesting that because just saying this is hard like that post has to come [TS]

  after everyone else's post comes to be kind of like the you know let me just say the obvious thing to get us back to [TS]

  sanity. [TS]

  The previous ones are like what is what is Apple what is the app is the app store environment getting worse is Apple [TS]

  not doing things that may used to be easier to make money but now it's not as easy [TS]

  and I blame Apple for that because they control the ecosystem [TS]

  and I was there is an angle that because it's like if you want to make an AI with app the App Store is the only game in [TS]

  town. Likewise you want to sell more of those jailbreak stories or something which usually people don't want to do. [TS]

  Apple controls everything and so unless Apple is perfect I made a good app. [TS]

  I think I picked a reasonable category but the App Store is harder to make money in now than it used to be. [TS]

  And whenever I see posts like that I think well yeah like people know about it now like it's not you know getting an [TS]

  Early of the of the of the gold rush is over the Gold Rush didn't end because Apple did something bad the Gold Rush [TS]

  ended because everyone everyone came to California like been there and here now like the gold [TS]

  and the gold's been dug out of the ground. [TS]

  When you're the first app on the App Store [TS]

  and they want everyone buys it because nothing for them to buy you know if you were the first read later app then you [TS]

  get a lot more customers than if you're the seventeen three they are bright that's just the Gold Rush means everyone [TS]

  rushed in and the market was filled and so now of course hard to make money [TS]

  but it kind of like what I kind of go back to is the I see this a lot [TS]

  and for writers complaining I guess developers too like writers developers anybody does anything creative fields in. [TS]

  Element they like don't work for free we all heard that before I think I've done this complained about the same thing [TS]

  on the talk as we don't work for free because it devalues you know the work so when you work for free [TS]

  and I tell somebody that I want to get paid like law to take this guy he works for free [TS]

  and don't do that because you're here making the thing that we do less valuable by being willing to do it for free [TS]

  and that is one hundred percent true if the market is full of people like I will write your application for free [TS]

  or I will write your blog post for free or I will do this logo design for you for free. [TS]

  It makes it harder for you to charge money for any of those services because if the guy doing it for free is just as [TS]

  good or God forbid better than you you you know it's very difficult to charge money. [TS]

  If you're talking to your peers Hey everybody who does whatever everybody who paints paintings everyone who writes [TS]

  articles ever turned up software don't do your thing for free [TS]

  or don't give your thing away because that makes it harder for all of us to make money and that is true [TS]

  but the problem with that is one of the things that you're doing is really fun really. [TS]

  What if it's really fun to make apps but it's really fun to do painting sort of logo design is really fun. [TS]

  What if you can do it in your spare time like while having a regular job out of college students really like to do it [TS]

  and they're really smart and talented and don't really need to have a job. [TS]

  Those are unfortunate facts of life about many endeavors [TS]

  and making apps is kind of fun like working for yourself is also fun all these things that make it attractive to people [TS]

  like Casey and me [TS]

  and you know it's like that makes it attractive to everybody everybody wants to do that everybody wants to lead the [TS]

  good life want to do something cool [TS]

  and all the people who are able to do that something cool because they don't need to have a job [TS]

  or because they're in college or because they're just young and foolish or whatever [TS]

  and like their reward is the fun of it. They take forever or else to make money. [TS]

  That's like I don't know it's like that's not I don't I don't think you can blame anybody in that the people saying [TS]

  that it's harder it is harder but I don't really blame the people doing it for free [TS]

  or for the fun of it because they're getting their own reward out of it and like. [TS]

  That's what I like to say the people who raised all of us are not entitled [TS]

  but like I'm making it seem independent of that thing of saying there is no entitlement to be able to make a good [TS]

  living doing something awesome that you love. [TS]

  Right Think of all the people who are in actual real creative fields like you know people who want to be a singer [TS]

  songwriters or like painters or poets. [TS]

  You couldn't but I wouldn't be great if I could make six figures a year writing poetry. [TS]

  Yes that would be great good luck with that. Right like the more people want to do it the more awesome it seems. [TS]

  Of course the harder it's going to be to do that [TS]

  and writing applications is a much more viable skill in terms of making money than poetry. [TS]

  But it's a continuum and writing applications that you feel like writing [TS]

  when you feel like writing them is farther towards the poetry end of the spectrum than doing what about Casey [TS]

  or I do which is doing something that in a status company needs you to do for money in a business that they've already [TS]

  proven is a viable business. That depressing you know. [TS]

  Do you John at all aspire to be independent and be that an independent consultant [TS]

  or perhaps an independent product guy do is there any part of you that that desires for that. [TS]

  Oh I aspire to be retired now. That's a wonderfully John thirty's of the center of the low. [TS]

  I sparred not to have to work I aspired to be independently wealthy all these are reasons why I will never have these [TS]

  things but you did ask me what I want to put what I want I want to not have to work [TS]

  and who doesn't want to not have to work. Exactly so. [TS]

  So except being that working in some capacity is a fact of life at the age in which we all are. [TS]

  Would you eat in a perfect world do you think you would prefer to be independent [TS]

  or do you think you would be you would prefer to be working for the man and have that either perceived [TS]

  or perhaps actual stability. [TS]

  Ron Sterling whatever else does which as you kind of like you do the thing that causes the least pain. [TS]

  I mean essentially So like so for me I would be incredibly stressed out if I was in any of any of these situations [TS]

  indie developers are in only men just it just is not compatible with my personality right so the only way. [TS]

  Like it's very attractive the only way I could do it is if is if I could say well I don't have to worry about money. [TS]

  So like that's what that's the thing of it is like if you just dumped a bucket of money I mean so here you go you never [TS]

  had to worry about money and what I would end up doing would look a lot like what an indie developer is doing [TS]

  but the only reason to be able to do it is because I would have no pressure to be successful. [TS]

  Like I could do whatever the hell I wanted and it doesn't matter to Caesar fails [TS]

  and that's the only way I could do that without like stressing myself to death. [TS]

  Either you find of the things to stress about not like you know like this is like the remaining I guess I'm probably [TS]

  stressed about health and stuff about my kids and all those stuff [TS]

  but you know there's always something like in terms of work the only thing I would do the only way I would ever do like [TS]

  the indie lifestyle is if I didn't count like of it didn't matter where I succeeded [TS]

  or failed so I because I just wouldn't be kind of like that Marco leaves well or I needed him to developers were like [TS]

  or even if your livelihood depends on you being successful by by doing something that you want to do with a skill that [TS]

  you have there be writing an application or even like writing a novel or running your own website [TS]

  or anything like that where it's just you. [TS]

  Nobody else knows of course like there's the entre entrepreneurial spirit I did not have that because who appears to be [TS]

  too much stress and I would be miserable [TS]

  and so I have chosen a life that avoids that stress by saying someone else worry about that I will develop my skills [TS]

  become a valuable worker or someone else to pay and that to me feels more secure [TS]

  and I don't know what number a job I'm on like six seven something like that like I I don't like that experience either [TS]

  having to go from job to job. [TS]

  But the gaps are longer and in between I feel like I have more stability [TS]

  and I would know things about which is why neither one of us to. [TS]

  This Point in case you are Marco and Marco is Marco because he has been I think you are not willing to do. [TS]

  Well hold on though. [TS]

  There's a big asterisk here though what a lot of people don't know [TS]

  or have forgotten is that I didn't take in the development full time until after it was successful. [TS]

  Yes and that's true but I thought about this on and off a fair bit. [TS]

  You did answer a Craigslist ad for a job posting that had for a company of one employee which is something that I can't [TS]

  speak for John [TS]

  but there's no frickin way I would ever do that because at that point all of the stability I'm seeking it's not there [TS]

  because just one guy how could one guy possibly do anything right. [TS]

  Many of us he was young though like I am I do that about as well. [TS]

  No that was a concern that was definitely concerned because I you know because of how expensive New York is to live in [TS]

  I was concerned that well if this company goes under and I thought getting paid like it takes like one [TS]

  and a half months for me to have no savings left and that's it. [TS]

  So I was concerned [TS]

  but I mean the main reason I did that was not because I was some like you know forward thinking maverick [TS]

  or something that was going to only had two offers that were at all even reasonable [TS]

  and I really didn't want to be either one like the other one would be miserable and I knew that [TS]

  and David made Let me we're going to mak. So that was it like that was that was a factor that into it. [TS]

  Right in that all of that makes sense with the Think of it is is that you took what to John [TS]

  or I I shouldn't speak for John [TS]

  but what to me what it was a tremendously risky offer even though in a lot of ways it was better it was still riskier [TS]

  in I.M.C. [TS]

  So risk adverse that I really admire the fact that you took that job offer at David Hill which led to all I would argue [TS]

  with led to all of these other things [TS]

  and I if if I was in the same position I would have gone to whatever the financial services firm whatever it was you [TS]

  were looking at or that you that you were also flirting with. That's right. [TS]

  Would be and I would be freaking miserable right now. [TS]

  OK I would have taken a job that I had my first job out of school was like in a five person startup it was like the dot [TS]

  com days like one nine hundred ninety seven so that's what you did and if your first job [TS]

  and you don't have any responsibilities [TS]

  and you figure you know like I did take that job it's just that my company didn't turn out to become a lawyer like like [TS]

  you know you know I mean like this is like a drug like the thing about Marco saying well I didn't leave my job until I [TS]

  was making good money with Instapaper I guess that's the only way to do it. [TS]

  But even at that point I would be saying well you know I did this app in my spare time it's popular people like it I'm [TS]

  making good money off of it. [TS]

  Now I can quit my job [TS]

  and I would never get to that lead point is I would say you can't quit your job because you know you're making money of [TS]

  an apple or a next year and the year after that and the year after that [TS]

  and you have to have some confidence like this is the thing that I can do that I can sustain this that I'm going to [TS]

  have to run a second happen a third app and I had to find ways to make money you know whatever [TS]

  and I would never have confidence that I could do them what I would feel like I was doing it if I take time off. [TS]

  I'm I'm derailing from like a career path elsewhere and if I go off [TS]

  and Instapaper goes for a few years now it kind of fizzled out [TS]

  and like oh now what do I do I gotta go back into the job market [TS]

  and I would be afraid that I can't get back into the job training how that's that is not really a rational fear because [TS]

  if you wrote into the paper and it said Phil after for years [TS]

  but did really well in between you would be no problem for you finding a job doing like I was contracting around it [TS]

  like it's you wouldn't actually be a problem [TS]

  but I mean I was looking at the App Store at the time zone one twenty seven there was no answer and then like that [TS]

  but that's the kind of feeling that like even if you are doing a side project [TS]

  and even the side projects become successful [TS]

  and lucrative the truly you know sort of person who is afraid about his financial security like I am [TS]

  and probably Casey is would be like oh that's fine you know [TS]

  but you can't quit your job because what you can do next year or the year after that for ten years now [TS]

  or fifteen years or twenty years from now [TS]

  or do you think this is a sustainable thing you can do in your entire career [TS]

  or do you think this is something that might go well for a couple years and you have to get a real job again and. [TS]

  When if you had to get a real job again anyway wanted to keep a real job you have now because it'll be harder to get. [TS]

  You know that's the that's the that's the kind of little voice in the back of my head that's preventing me from ever [TS]

  doing it ever ever doing anything independent. [TS]

  Well [TS]

  but you know the trick there really is quit you know that the flaw in that thinking is in assuming that jobs are stable [TS]

  and the reality is like they're they're not at all like Yeah I've made the same point before [TS]

  and I've been through seven jobs [TS]

  and I'm just saying like people do essentially what makes them feel comfortable within the bounds of their values [TS]

  or whatever and within the bounds of my values having a regular salaried job makes the rest of my life less stressful. [TS]

  As you get closer to retirement maybe that changes just like well you know maybe I go independent now because it's not [TS]

  like I have twenty years of career ahead of me anyway so if I end up doing something outside of my job [TS]

  or because they were successful I can jump ship [TS]

  and do that because after a few years then I'm actually really I'm going to retire with all the money I saved from my [TS]

  salary job during those years anyway so I think all these in developers talking to each other on these blogs [TS]

  and amongst each other is just kind of a way of each person coming to terms with their own sort of values like it takes [TS]

  a certain amount of guts to leap into that lifestyle. [TS]

  And it takes a certain sort of temperament [TS]

  and mindset to keep at it like underscore definitely has the mindset he has the mindset to jump into it [TS]

  and he has the head for keeping doing and he's going to do what it takes [TS]

  and he's like you know that the full spectrum kind of business thing [TS]

  and you do Margot for those that you know like you may like set one aspect more than another [TS]

  but you realize there is a spectrum of things that you have to do with the business side the marketing side choosing [TS]

  what you're going to do the technical side and you have your favorites and I'll be like all that [TS]

  but you realize it's sort of a you know it's sort of like a full stack web developer you have to be forced out of [TS]

  business person [TS]

  and you have to be able to tolerate the lifestyle that comes that obviously success makes it more tolerable [TS]

  but some people jump into it liking only want to aspect of it [TS]

  and realize that all that other stuff is just necessary like and that's. [TS]

  A problem of the gold rush is you can jump into it just being into like the one aspect of it [TS]

  and just like I really like development and I made an app [TS]

  and it's one of the only three of its kind in the App Store and I'm making money for three years [TS]

  and then all the sudden all these competitors come in it becomes a more competitive market space [TS]

  and you're like well I really don't like doing any of the parts except for the cool part where you write the app [TS]

  and if I don't do those things I can't really compete and store you've changed man cycle there. [TS]

  Maybe you just weren't cut out for that just like the environment changed and your the things that you like to do [TS]

  and don't like to do no longer make so they are no longer fit for success in this environment right [TS]

  and so as the environment changes the things that it's like for success change as well [TS]

  and I don't like we all have complaints about the App Store when Apple does know they're all the German complaints [TS]

  but most of this sort of talking about the App Store I think has to do with people coming to terms with their own [TS]

  tolerance for what the current app store environment is like [TS]

  and then because some people like well I had to stop being independent I had a job [TS]

  or other people are going to stick it out no matter what [TS]

  and like what you don't hear about only things like well here's my sales numbers [TS]

  but like Does your spouse work during that time are you still living with the parents. [TS]

  Are you independently wealthy in sort of the matter what happens here anyway because you have a trust fund like you [TS]

  never know what they're actually do you live in Kansas where your rent is really low [TS]

  or like you never know what the actual situation is like how do you live how do you live on that little money are you [TS]

  going to stick it out you're not going to those are more like personal decisions that have to do with your current [TS]

  living situation and your tolerance for risk and stress [TS]

  and that I think is the bulk of this question which is a good discussion to have. [TS]

  The tiny sliver of the discussion is are there things that Apple is doing or not doing that make it better [TS]

  or worse for everybody or better or worse for a particular type of developer [TS]

  and I think the I think the takeaway from this is like not so much what is Apple doing to the App Store that makes it a [TS]

  more hostile or friendly environment for developers but what kind of people are they selecting for [TS]

  and obviously the people having sufficient thank you. [TS]

  That's why I think for me that's bad because I'm awesome which is good you should think that. [TS]

  But the coin Apple I'd be thinking Oh yeah we want to select those apps. [TS]

  When Apple design awards but not as much as you might think like we just need enough to have Apple design awards [TS]

  but in reality we're also kind of OK with being in the store even though you've never been to an Apple design award [TS]

  right. [TS]

  And so like what the kind of store that we wish it was all filled with beautiful handcrafted art has no applications [TS]

  made by passion people in detail like you can't make a full story of that [TS]

  or if you can make it about the store that Apple wants. [TS]

  You do need like you need a and their I guess I mean [TS]

  and even in things like talk about which are great applications that's obviously that's like a full fledged business [TS]

  like two people working out of a garage. [TS]

  Even if I may have started that way and made maybe even need Angry Birds which again started to people [TS]

  and becomes this big thing. [TS]

  So but I think it was an interesting discussion I enjoyed spectating it from the sidelines [TS]

  but I don't think there's any one clear like Mission or like sign we can all hold over ahead to say do X. [TS]

  Now or else it's just more like this is life. [TS]

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  It's really nice I have a bunch of factors are in my office fractures it's hard to describe the literal It sounds like [TS]

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  Oh of app icon fracture prints and so they have they have the small square size it's something like five by five [TS]

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  To get fifteen percent off still fantastic prices I love these guys. [TS]

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  Anyway thank you very much to fracture who print your photo [TS]

  and good color directly on glass fracture Me dot com So we should also point out with regard to people opening a kimono [TS]

  or whatever the phrase is groceries Well sorry. [TS]

  Revealing their numbers which also OK sharing their number [TS]

  or whatever anyway the point is somebody has each Chad I don't know who exactly that is [TS]

  but Jesse Chad put put up a post which will put in the show notes about what it's like for game developers because the [TS]

  assumption is that games game developers make all the money in the App Store [TS]

  and as it turns out this person who has a day job at Twitter which allows him I'm assuming it's a him allows him to [TS]

  make these things in his spare time and not have to worry about making a living off of it. [TS]

  He wrote three or four games some of which looked really nice. [TS]

  I've not played any of them but but nevertheless he wrote a few games and for three games [TS]

  and even some of which he spent a lot of time trying to market. [TS]

  He basically ended up a little bit in the red because of the marketing he paid for in order to try to make some money [TS]

  on these games. So even for game developers all is not rosy in the App Store anymore. [TS]

  Well you know even four because what's more fun than writing a cool i OS application where I think I was like a [TS]

  reasonable yardstick to say how much fun is it to do this thing and then how many people can do it at all. [TS]

  All that all that has a good a good a good number in the how many people can do it at all because only certain people [TS]

  have the desire or talent to learn all the crap you have to learn to be a programmer right. [TS]

  Just aren't into it like that's great that's good for us right it helps us make more money because most people don't [TS]

  want to learn this crap. But game development of all the kinds of of all the kind of programs you're going to write. [TS]

  Writing a game like that if you talk to any programmer a lot of our first program experiences I wanted to write a game [TS]

  because people who like the program maybe also like puter games like Ike I would like to write one of those [TS]

  and even you know end up as a game programmer how many of us I know certainly my first programs I ever wrote for game [TS]

  programs and I certainly didn't have a game per game Bramley is fun so it's fun [TS]

  and it's not looking good for what are my chances of making a lot of money doing it. [TS]

  In fact it starts to become more like what are my chances of like making a hit movie or a bestselling novel. [TS]

  Games are kind of like that it is a creative field you do need all sorts of skills you don't have a new technical field [TS]

  and you need to build on top of that we're just like oh now it's really hard to find this one [TS]

  or two people who can do this right [TS]

  and also it's a kind of a hit driven culture where you you have to have the right game at the right time [TS]

  and boy that's tough I would not be surprised to see that it is much harder to make a living selling games [TS]

  and the App Store than it is selling a To Do List application or a pocket application or anything else. [TS]

  Yes games are a tough market because there are there is infinite competition it's just there's there's there are so [TS]

  many games and games are also competing for attention with other things that you do to kill some time sometimes [TS]

  and have some fun sometimes that includes things like social networking and movies and music [TS]

  and oh no innocent music upset me anymore but you know other people you know that watch movies [TS]

  and you know browse Twitter and Facebook and post stuff and like all of that is competing for time [TS]

  and attention with games [TS]

  and so the end you know games have these immense price pressures of small side plus they have the problem of like you [TS]

  know if you make if you make an R.S.S. [TS]

  Reader you can ship a one point oh that is very good it didn't take very long to make [TS]

  and you can add to it over time games. Don't really work that way. [TS]

  Not most of the time you know usually with a game you pretty much have to do all of that up front before you know [TS]

  whether anybody will buy it [TS]

  and so it's just a really tough market of us to license I P And then you can do episodic content because you have a [TS]

  known property. [TS]

  You know like it's just much more like games are almost nothing like the application market almost everything like the [TS]

  market for all their entertainment whether it be television shows or movies or music or anything like that. [TS]

  There's a technical aspect to it [TS]

  and there's all sorts of details that you have to know that's just the kind of like adds a degree of difficulty to what [TS]

  is basically. [TS]

  Can you make a good game can you even think of a good game that's fun and then can you implement that well [TS]

  and then can you you know put it out into it [TS]

  and extremely crowded market a way that people even see it really hard to do because it's like there's no utility value [TS]

  like a podcast Apple like this helps me do a thing I like to do. It's like they're insane. [TS]

  Well I was like a punk that helps you sort of play do something you want to do which is listen to podcasts. [TS]

  I'm trying to think of a game equivalent I don't know if there is one. [TS]

  Do you manage your games I don't know [TS]

  but the games are just like the thing you do that's fun it's like podcasts are the things you do that's fun [TS]

  and games do have a few advantages over other app types you know one of them being for example that they don't really [TS]

  compete directly as much as you might think in the way that like you know people usually only use like one R.S.S. [TS]

  Reader at a time you know and they might only ever buy one or two R.S.S. Readers. [TS]

  Games are consumables aren't exactly like games like you download you play it for a little while [TS]

  and you move on you buy more games and so it's not like it's easier for multiple games to reach the same customer. [TS]

  Whereas if you're in a category of competing similar apps chances are most people are going to pick one of those. [TS]

  I like e-mail apps like people aren't switching to small group of nerds even looking for alternate apps most people [TS]

  have a name a lot they're going to stick with it or whatever. But game games Arkansas. [TS]

  That's actually a better fit for the App Store in that respect I guess just like what I do for for upgrade [TS]

  but you don't just make another game or you make game version two and you know make it a sequel [TS]

  and it's a separate app because everyone like no one has a problem with that. Well somebody does but you know. [TS]

  Yeah but it's the same thing. [TS]

  Like well then how do you know it's just every last me game [TS]

  and making a good game is really hard because it's you know just not I think oh it's not really U.I. [TS]

  You know you might actually do some your I [TS]

  but it is really hard to make good games I think though to end this on a positive note. [TS]

  You know when when the post first came out like two weeks ago whenever whenever Jared started it [TS]

  when these first came out it looked pretty grim for the first few days in the last few days I've seen a lot of posts [TS]

  from people who are making it work [TS]

  and they're inspirational in a way you know their their motivational least wear it you can make this work [TS]

  but you have to both do it intelligently in a way that will succeed [TS]

  and have reasonable expectations on how much you're going to make and you know base your decisions on that. [TS]

  So for instance you know I John [TS]

  and John you were saying earlier like a lot of people won't be out of Alberta therefore there are a lot of developers [TS]

  and a lot of people doing it for very little money because a lot of people do it on the side. [TS]

  There's nothing wrong with that. That's how I started. [TS]

  Casey your site active Elop or John you would be if you could write apps in perl this start like [TS]

  and that's a lot of people never take a full time that's what they always they always do part time side project. [TS]

  Mostly a hobby that my bringing a little a little money here and there and everything wrong with that. [TS]

  You should probably start with that if you're interested in doing this at all. [TS]

  Don't quit your job and have this romantic notion of say going to coffee shop and running apps all day [TS]

  and collecting a bunch of money like it's harder than that [TS]

  and if you take longer than that before you reach that point like in the past year [TS]

  but I've been working on overcast it really. Has it been full time I've had this show and I've had my blog. [TS]

  Those both bring in money. [TS]

  They both take time and work [TS]

  and so I had I didn't have zero income for the last year I had income from those two things I don't think I would have [TS]

  done overcast if I had zero income for a year like that. [TS]

  I think I ought to try to find some way of having money come in every month [TS]

  and you know we all start from a very small amount like you look at apps today. [TS]

  It's similar to like putting Ad Sense on a blog in two thousand [TS]

  and six right like I had some time ago in two thousand and six and I was extremely happy. [TS]

  You know I was getting like fast techno bars at most you know I think [TS]

  and Google had like a minimum where they would even send you a check until you had a lease of the of the hundred bucks. [TS]

  It was like fifty or one hundred bucks [TS]

  and I only hit that twice in the entire time I ran ad so I made a total of like two hundred bucks maybe in like five [TS]

  years. [TS]

  You were as on my blog it was it was miserable [TS]

  and I was working on that frequently I was writing like probably once a week at least. [TS]

  The problem is like the amount of effort you put into something does not correlate directly to how much other people [TS]

  are willing to pay for it [TS]

  and so you have to have reasonable expectations of you know no matter how much effort you put into an app of type X. [TS]

  Whatever it is you want to make. [TS]

  You're probably not going to earn more then you know a few thousand bucks in the best case scenario rather than bemoan [TS]

  that and complain and say it's Apple's fathers you know there are things Apple can do to improve [TS]

  but this is mostly not Apple's problem. [TS]

  I think if you look at like what something like underscore David Smith is doing he makes many apps. [TS]

  He tries things all the time he said [TS]

  and he took on one of the shows recently I think he's made a couple hundred apps [TS]

  and they aren't all still in existence in the store but he like created something like a couple hundred apps [TS]

  and you know he sees what works he doesn't put a ton of time into Version want to see. [TS]

  Now that he sees what works [TS]

  and in the ones that work he puts the time in that that they earn basically from their sales like proportionally like [TS]

  if something sells well I'll give it the attention it you know more attention to succeed more. [TS]

  And if something doesn't sell that well he's going to you know he just continues it and moves on. [TS]

  That's a really smart approach it's a very pragmatic approach to very effective approach [TS]

  and it's very realistic of like what the store actually is. [TS]

  I saw another post from a guy who said Often I'll turn it on in the shadows I'm sorry I don't member of the names [TS]

  offhand but I'm sort of a post from a guy who said like he develops apps on the side as well as most of his income [TS]

  but he lives a really inexpensive lifestyle and he can like go skiing with his family and be present for his kids [TS]

  and he just you know lower expectations and lowers his expenses and that's and he can do what he wants. That's great. [TS]

  Like if you go into it with realistic Titian's you can succeed but you have to you have to know what the market is [TS]

  and know what you're likely to get out of it and [TS]

  and I saw also a Justin Williams had a post saying that he doesn't think you could spend more than one hundred days [TS]

  building version one point oh because that way you know you get it out there quickly [TS]

  and if it's going to be a flop you can move on quickly if it's going to be a hit. [TS]

  Then you can know that you can choose how much you invest in it in the future. That again great advice. [TS]

  This is all about. [TS]

  I know I just violated all this with overcast but you know keep in mind I was like that was not full time work. [TS]

  It's all about limiting your risk and lowering expectations [TS]

  and then adapting to the conditions that actually happen once you put it out there. [TS]

  There was also a man with I forget the name what's what's the guy who wrote the four part experiment who had an app [TS]

  and he made a friend I made a purchase an app store experiment Stuart Hall. All right now I know. [TS]

  OK so it's Stuart Hall and when the show notes it's called an avatar experiment there's like five or so parts [TS]

  and it's really good. It's a really good read so he started out he made he made an app called. Seven minute workout. [TS]

  It does something relatively simple. [TS]

  But whether there is a market for it but it's a relatively simple app and he started out with it being a pain app [TS]

  and then it went in and purchased a free app and he's trying all these additional things [TS]

  and he's showing the results he's showing all the actual numbers the whole time of like you know here's like every [TS]

  setting like every six months or so he posts a new thing using here that I've done the last six months. [TS]

  Here's the results. [TS]

  It is had and everything this is the way to do the app store you need you take an approach like this [TS]

  when a person underscore David Smith's where he makes a lot of small apps first then decide what to work on you know [TS]

  what to give more time to afterwards. That is how you succeed. [TS]

  I think this blog discussion as it spread out from our circle we start to get into things that are different because in [TS]

  our circle this is the people who want to sort of live the life where you want to make an application that you think is [TS]

  cool that does something you're interested in and you want to make it the way you want to make it [TS]

  and then you hope people pay for that and that is kind of the central core of our little circle of people. Right right. [TS]

  And as this discussion has spread out you start getting into the people [TS]

  and I think underscores at the fringes of our circle because he also has kind of the same values of us [TS]

  but a lot of the people closer into this central part of the Indian life that would say yeah [TS]

  but I want to make one hundred apps because I probably wouldn't be into a lot of those apps or whatever [TS]

  and Mike underscore [TS]

  and like there's a person Stewart already forgot his name Stewart one of the things that they're into is the the the [TS]

  business part of it the game part of figuring out what do I do to my business to be like I'm turning dials here some of [TS]

  those dollars have to do with writing COBRA the dials have to do with things like pricing or what job should I make [TS]

  or wish that you know that's the thing that they're into [TS]

  and as you go farther rather than sort of you find some guy was making like an I.R.S. [TS]

  Application that helps the reception desk at a dental office and he's making a living doing that [TS]

  but he's so far outside our circle he never seen any of these blog posts right. [TS]

  But he's happily making a living doing that you know [TS]

  but I don't want to make a dental app it's not interesting to me at the cost of me about as fun anymore you know if you [TS]

  have to move away from the center of exactly what I want. [TS]

  When I want I want to do an awesome job and I want to get paid like Yeah everybody wants that [TS]

  and if you're if your skills and interests and what you do happens to coincide with a way to make money that's great [TS]

  but as you spread out people have different interests maybe someone is super into making you know applications for a [TS]

  dentist office right. And that's what he wants to do. [TS]

  Maybe he wouldn't be in our circles [TS]

  or maybe he's just like well I'll do this because this makes money like it's the desire [TS]

  or the center of the thing is like this sort of selfishness i or to just be happy doing what you want to do [TS]

  and be successful [TS]

  and as you tell people actually you have to be farther away from the thing you're like actually you have to be more [TS]

  like underscore because as I put those not fundamental it's obviously fun Berners course he's doing it right he's [TS]

  actually interested in that he said but it's not fun for me what I want to make is that whatever app [TS]

  and I want to make games that's all I want to make and it's like well you know good luck Mike. [TS]

  It's not everyone can do exactly what they want to do some people are willing to get off of like America three seven [TS]

  record score on the show is that like would you prefer just make one beautiful application that you really into [TS]

  or do you actually like this part of it where you try to make lots of like is that actually interesting to you [TS]

  and I think like it he's always blogging about an area it seems like that aspect of it is interesting to him [TS]

  and just he's lucky in that that interest him and he's good at it and it matches with the skill set [TS]

  and that allows him to be successful [TS]

  and all these people who are having small success they would do what they want to do [TS]

  when they were doing it the best they could to just turns out that that is not a formula for making money at this [TS]

  particular time and there are many things they can do to change their behavior to make more money [TS]

  but the question for them is do those changes make me less happy and is it worth it for me [TS]

  or is there something else I could do that's radically different like say get it do I US contracting [TS]

  or just get a regular job or you know get a job in totally unrelated field [TS]

  and continue to do this on the side that would give me an overall happier life again it's back to like you know [TS]

  centrally trying to do what's going to make you the happiest [TS]

  and picking an arbitrary goal like I want to be successful in the developer if that's not actually going to make you [TS]

  happy because. What it takes to be an individual or you should do something else you know. [TS]

  So in summary despite what we thought the forecast isn't as overcast as we initially believed. [TS]

  Thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week need top Brewer and fracture and we will see you next week. [TS]

  Now this show is over they didn't even mean to be here. [TS]

  It was accidental accidental just because it was that it was accidental. Thank you for today. [TS]

  It says to that list [TS]

  and that it's not a long time workshopping that while we're talking while NOT a while since I've had an extremely [TS]

  cheesy joked in the show it's been like two weeks. How is your show about doing is it up. [TS]

  Yeah actually somebody whose name I don't have in front of me. No not the Robbie Mick Kenny McKinney I don't know. [TS]

  Made a really good poll request which I have a couple of minor quibbles with so I didn't. [TS]

  I told him call it like I see it anyway. [TS]

  I'm assuming this is a he made upon request so it will periodically back itself up to paste been well which I thought [TS]

  was which I thought was a very clever idea. [TS]

  It's complicated not the solution hits like Goldberg machine the persistence every every three seconds it prints out a [TS]

  little piece of paper then that's like a bird in the birds fly hands are there and under a lot of data. [TS]

  Anyway ten foot pole named I.B.M. Don't like it it was like two seconds of the show. I spy to be retired. [TS]

  I actually was going to petition for my own title but that is pretty good. [TS]

  Yeah that's my pick from what I've seen so far. Who doesn't aspire to be retired. [TS]

  You can you aspire to be retired you know Casey. [TS]

  Oh I absolutely I aspire to not like full fledge like John Roderick I have to be a retired CIA director. [TS]

  Just because you're tired is fine. I don't aspire to be retired. You are retired. [TS]

  Retirement like to me the idea of not working is really boring [TS]

  but it's not not working retired means you no longer have your job you would still do the things that you like doing [TS]

  it's just that you don't and you're not doing them because someone is telling you to and that's your life. [TS]

  Almost all the time. [TS]

  Kind of a blurry line though like like I said if I thought I was retired my life would look a lot more like Markos like [TS]

  I would still probably do tech related things it's just that I'm not doing them to get someone is telling me to [TS]

  or because I want to pay me to understand them because it's what I feel like doing well as an example if I was quote [TS]

  unquote retired I would absolutely still write for my blog that not that many people read. [TS]

  I would still do the show because those are the things that I ninety nine percent of the time enjoy doing. [TS]

  I told you earlier I really like my job but I don't enjoy my job ninety nine percent of the time. [TS]

  Kind of in the parking lot sometime exactly as a title of mine that I was going to petition for [TS]

  but I think the other one is better with full stack business person. I think John said but I spire to be retired. [TS]

  He's also pretty awesome [TS]

  and I like four states as a person better than that I think it's more at the heart of the river discussing about like [TS]

  having to do all the aspects of being successful not just the ones that you like. [TS]

  I mean in that respect I guess like when that's not the part of Mark I like to feel like working. [TS]

  Like he enjoys I'm sure you enjoy the develop part way more of the other parts right [TS]

  but you got to do the other parts you know like that's your that's your version of that's your boss basically you know [TS]

  that you have to do the parts of maintaining your business [TS]

  and doing all that crap because you know that's just part of it like you can't [TS]

  and you hate managing people more than you had doing yourself is going to do it [TS]

  and just you know deal with it right that that is essentially your boss [TS]

  but the thing is you know being retired is like well what are depending on a hobby that you pick. [TS]

  There's probably some aspect of that too like for example say I'm retired I would probably still like to write things [TS]

  and maybe I would still write like big you know interviews first I think [TS]

  and there's aspects of the writing process that I don't like to. But overall it's still worth it. [TS]

  So I would do the parts that I don't like because overall I still like it [TS]

  and I would still feel like I'm retired I don't have a boss telling you what to do [TS]

  but I'm still doing activities that have aspects of it that feel like drudgery because the overall I like this. [TS]

  So I'd be like you wrote a show but in the end had everyone you knew [TS]

  and didn't now terror to part now you like every part of that I did. [TS]

  Well I got frustrated but I did like an overall [TS]

  but it's all the fun part life's all development you're not leisure you know like out there you know trying to [TS]

  negotiate for a trademark on the name for your show BOD [TS]

  or filling out paperwork for taxes in New York state like no no no no no nothing like that. [TS]

  I do not underestimate the that's that's another aspect really [TS]

  and talk about this aspect of the independent lifestyle like I think I dislike the business part of it even more than [TS]

  Marco does which is saying something I think well it doesn't. Honestly it isn't that much work. [TS]

  Well as you've done and you get used to it it's kind of becomes more a team but I personally once you cross the point. [TS]

  Where you're you're finally willing to hire an accountant. It makes things so much easier for not that much money. [TS]

  And yeah and you any visible who don't have an accountant. Hire an accountant. [TS]

  All the things that you've learned over your years of doing this. [TS]

  Like that process of learning that I would hate like you've already done it you've learned it you set it up you like [TS]

  but there was that was work to do that maybe you enjoyed it more than more than than you've let on [TS]

  but I am just not want to like things with no interest in that and don't want to deal with it don't want to learn [TS]

  and don't want to be good at it don't. [TS]

  Well but you know there's also there's there's like entire entire types of things that you have to deal with [TS]

  and work for someone else as well. [TS]

  Things like commuting getting you know finding the business dealing with the office and how things are done [TS]

  and how to file for be kidding if you had a fire on a train for those by going to school over your school going to [TS]

  college trains you on how to commute how to live on your own how to deal with bureaucracy how to follow rules how to [TS]

  show places on time all the things the part of the working life school essentially trains you for anyway see it's like [TS]

  but time [TS]

  and chemical are a good job already know how to do this are not a commute I know I do use public transportation [TS]

  and not a show place on time and do assignments and you know like that [TS]

  and that respect school is a preparation for the drudgery of life [TS]

  but all this business of being an entrepreneur is likely nothing prepares you for like well depending what your major [TS]

  is I guess that starting your own business [TS]

  and dealing with like you know all the incorporation in tax goes like the part that you have to deal with having like [TS]

  lots of employees saying we're actually going start a real year like fifty [TS]

  or hundred employees is a whole bunch stuff about that that you don't know [TS]

  and that would have to find out if you decide to do that [TS]

  but you hate that so much you're just never going to do it right because I like I did briefly have a full time employee [TS]

  and it was awful. Paperwork wise and so I stopped doing it. [TS]

  Even though like awful just not like I got an envelope from paychecks every two weeks because I was paying them like [TS]

  you know fifty bucks a month to handle it all for me [TS]

  and even that like stressed me out because I didn't I didn't understand it fully and that that that bothered me [TS]

  but forgot about like H.R. His shoes. [TS]

  Like if you're having a big company we're hiring fifty [TS]

  or a hundred people that's just you know I'm not I'm not saying that that running a company with employees is easier [TS]

  than going work for somebody but working for yourself as a sort of pride or or like a one person L.L.C. [TS]

  Is pretty simple [TS]

  and I would say it's it's simpler than most people who haven't done it probably think especially please for the love of [TS]

  God hire an accountant. As long as you have an accountant and have a lawyer do the D.L.C. [TS]

  Papers you know you'll be out of there for less than two thousand bucks probably for everything to be set up. [TS]

  The hardest part of working for yourself is the work it's making the money. [TS]

  All this other stuff is very minor by comparison. [TS]

  For most businesses that we would start you know we're lucky we're not going to try to make stuff we don't need to hire [TS]

  ten people [TS]

  and have like you know malpractice liability kind of insurance is like you know we're not going to make a profit [TS]

  and kill somebody [TS]

  and then we get sued over it like we're not going to make We're not trying to sell somebody something like some [TS]

  appliance of a couple in their house and going to set our house on fire. [TS]

  Much harder to like start a restaurant for example. [TS]

  Yeah I think he has all of the money up front you have to take all this [TS]

  or is it to be a life saving interior to get business loans at the end of every you know for money [TS]

  and you have a one percent chance of failure. [TS]

  Yeah exactly I mean the kind of business is we start are are very very easy to start [TS]

  and run by comparison I mean you get that so that's why it's like how how fun is it. [TS]

  And that's another aspect how little risk is they're involved. [TS]

  Yeah and you do it in your spare time and do a lot of people think it's really cool. [TS]

  Starting a restaurant is a lot of people think that's really cool. [TS]

  But you cannot set in your spare time what you hold on a regular job very easily like physical businesses starting a [TS]

  retail store [TS]

  or starting a restaurant stuff like that are much worse which is why you know it's so many people writing apps. [TS]

  Yeah because it only takes like one hundred bucks and a few hours of time [TS]

  and you have an app in the store that like it takes so little right Casey to have. [TS]

  Well that would be true if I had already known I was developing [TS]

  when I wrote fast action I know your I know you are being silly [TS]

  but if I were to write fast text again today in fact I have considered rewriting it and swear maybe the fast [TS]

  but maybe the fastest patter with you and I I I say compatible or it has to start over. [TS]

  Honestly that often is the answer to whenever Apple changes stuff dramatically like I was it dramatically changes all [TS]

  the odd overtaken stuff and like they you know they replace all of it [TS]

  and starting over with a brand new app is definitely easier in some cases especially if the app is relatively simple [TS]

  like fast text is it's definitely easier just to try to like carry forward this I less four codebase for five years. [TS]

  Yeah you're absolutely right on a very random note John I'm a little disappointed in you because I eat fast food [TS]

  italian last week and you did not break me at all. [TS]

  I thought you posted a picture of something I didn't know what that was only if I don't write [TS]

  and not recognize that I mean to look like you know the typical garden like hot dog buns with grease sprayed on the [TS]

  people that people think are bread steaks [TS]

  but I thought maybe it was like like you had gone back to like Virginia Tech [TS]

  and like old like you know like a place a place on campus that you were into I'm like whatever like maybe it's I don't [TS]

  know I just know a time for everything anyway so yes you're right there is certainly no Italians in the entire [TS]

  Commonwealth of Virginia [TS]

  and certainly know the right of refugees there's always this fast food italian that is not a joke it is like a fast [TS]

  casual I think it's what they call like a pan Arab Red sort of thing. [TS]

  And when you're in facilities and you're dining in you get unlimited What do you call them grease sprayed hot dog buns. [TS]

  Yeah. Marlice and and there there is if there was another still is a fizzle ease. [TS]

  In the town next to where Virginia Tech is and I used to love going there and I haven't been to one in years [TS]

  and we were on our way back from the beach [TS]

  and I thought you know I think there's a facility somewhere in Virginia Beach and sure enough we looked [TS]

  and there was one and I begged Aaron. Would it be OK if we stopped and she said absolutely. And it was delicious. [TS]

  I'm looking through his menu here and I'm betting all of this is microwave probably way it looks. [TS]

  Everything I found so far could be easily microwave Here's a so we're going time restaurant on my B.S. [TS]

  Jobs in high school and I learned very quickly that you shouldn't order things like was on your interest [TS]

  or I had that was you you know you can't you know going to make somebody a single serving. [TS]

  Cuba's on you know when the order it that doesn't make sense it's impractical it's probably impossible [TS]

  but I think the kind of time I was on is made ahead of time and put in the fridge or frozen [TS]

  and a mini order at the microwave and service you want to play [TS]

  and you know looking at these kind of entrees they have here I'm looking at all the same like this probably all work [TS]

  that would probably all are just like pre-made in the freezer. [TS]

  Micro if you have the particular dish I had was the ultimate sampler which I did not consume all of because I didn't [TS]

  have I didn't have the room but it is fettuccine alfredo meat was on E.S.P.N. He and Penny with meat sauce. [TS]

  So Stark's butter butter starch beef butter [TS]

  and starchy foods a problem with fast food italian like fast food in terms of like you walk up to someone tell them [TS]

  what you want and you keep staying there until you get the food [TS]

  or you know we started out even if you take a little number if you wear it while it's like I mean it takes a minimum [TS]

  like you know three four five minute to cook pasta. [TS]

  But the fast food italian place like what they have to have the Bastardi ready and it is dumped into hot water [TS]

  and it's like you can't that's not good. Like me just forget it. [TS]

  I mean I would rather have a microwave tables on it than some pasta that's been sitting around waiting for me to show [TS]

  up and they just don't get in hot water and soap. [TS]

  Like no you can't you can't have the knowledge thing is fast food passed another kind of diet would I mean the big [TS]

  restaurants make a bundle of Arnie anyway and kind of for you but they make it that day. [TS]

  Not all is well you know they're going to tell us about a place I wish I were that they wouldn't even bother the crap [TS]

  out of me. [TS]

  The bread they serve was frozen you know bought in and it was usually better for ten minutes [TS]

  and it is a privilege of warming up to the butter they would have me take the butter cups from the tables that were [TS]

  half used and just pop them off and put them back up. Yes probably legal. [TS]

  Yeah I and I resisted I know I would whenever I would not do that they would yell at me and make me do it. [TS]

  Oh man it was a no fat fast food italian should not be a thing that I guess I suppose pizzas kind of fast food a tiny [TS]

  thing but even if you take a little while to cook and prepare I don't know [TS]

  but I'm I'm not into these places that you enjoyed your terrible test for Italian you know where else I was at a Sonic [TS]

  Drive-In which is also amazing [TS]

  and I don't think you guys have that in NE because it's like a tour of the worst fast food restaurant in the country. [TS]

  So this is you know what it's like. [TS]

  You listening to me talk about how much I was there's Ollie's in Sonic is like the entire rest of the friggin world [TS]

  listening to you talk about Phish cheesy bread hot dogs. I did not have that. I had just a cheeseburger. This is very. [TS]

  What color is that drink what is this made from food which drink any of them but all of that are shown on the Web site. [TS]

  They're always like me on those bright blue it's like a purist cyan like a bright. So what are the hot dogs in this. [TS]

  She's been with cheese and bacon on top of the hot dog with cheese wrapped around it and she's on topic. [TS]

  Oh my God LOL It's only eleven hundred calories for one of these burgers. That's pretty low for fast food. [TS]

  How is one of these cheesy. Let's see the one they're showing on the front page. [TS]

  The ultimate cheese and bacon cheesy bread dog name where you were to get the info when attrition [TS]

  and only five hundred fifty calories that's not as much as I would've thought from although it's only one hot dog [TS]

  presently probably one or two of them but yeah no ultimate cheese and bacon cheesy bread dogs still [TS]

  and one five hundred fifty calories. [TS]

  The teal cyan drink I was seeing on the home screen is apparently Powerade brand mountain blast slush which tastes like [TS]

  mountain blast so I guess only one hundred fifty calories for that saying oh wait what that's a wacky pack. [TS]

  What is a Wacky Packs. So this is one of the sets were like every other word. [TS]

  Has he registered trademark symbol after it. [TS]

  Because like none of this is actually food it's all just like cot concepts [TS]

  and marketing trends they've invented some how fast food burgers [TS]

  and hot dogs don't bother me as much as like fess would tell you it's because you're telling [TS]

  and I don't know I don't others like that I just been like burgers and how those were always kind of fast food [TS]

  and there's not. They're mostly soy protein anyway or we have Shake Shack here now. [TS]

  I like that I've never had Shake Shack but I'd really love to. I've heard it's excellent is very good. [TS]

  There is usually a big line at the one than your going to have the one that ever rolls are but it is it is very good. [TS]

  It's greasy [TS]

  but it's like it's like greasy fast food done by foodies So it it it is a high quality implementation of greasy fast [TS]

  food. How do you guys have Five Guys Burgers and Fries of where you are. [TS]

  Yeah we have them so and comparing them they're different. [TS]

  I think I think Shake Shack feels a little bit more like feel like it's worse for you in your eating it which can be [TS]

  good and bad. [TS]

  I don't think there's any real like health [TS]

  or calorie difference between them like five guys feels more like it was made by you in your house or backyard [TS]

  and share. [TS]

  Exactly it's more like it was made in a restaurant because I mean they used a potato bun which maybe you wouldn't use [TS]

  at home and their burgers are a little different I like them both I think five guys fries are better [TS]

  and five has more variety in their menu but I stopped going to you know McDonald's and Burger King [TS]

  or whatever I guess after I graduated college [TS]

  and I think the reason I went in there is because they were like in the food court [TS]

  and I could buy them with my little you know points card thing but I don't really go to those anymore [TS]

  but takes much exact came I started going to that [TS]

  and I realized it was like making up for all those years that I never went to McDonald's Burger King or [TS]

  when you're at a fast food place because now I can go to Shake Shack and pay way more money [TS]

  and wait on a humongous line or have my wife went on a money line rather and anger burgers [TS]

  and I mean they work at home and stuff too but ones are better than the ones that make it home [TS]

  and probably much worse for me to see that this is a totally southern thing but we have a thing in North Carolina [TS]

  and Virginia called cookout and they can get like forty four pounds of food for five bucks or something like that. [TS]

  But but it is just like you were at a cookout in your backyard it is Yury how similar the burgers taste. [TS]

  But my backyard cookouts aren't that good though I want better for them. [TS]

  Why wouldn't you just have a cook at a cookout is not that hard to have [TS]

  and I'm not I'm no good I'm no good at making burgers found out that a voter tried to do anything special to make their [TS]

  home there are right but I recently decided that it's not really worth grilling burgers. [TS]

  Most of the time I get really hot dogs it's so much easier because they're precooked so you can't really overcooked [TS]

  them and they're very very obvious like when they're done and you like it's just so much [TS]

  and then you can have two of them or you can do different things like you know you don't get awful for having one. [TS]

  Hot dogs are slightly worse for your problem and burgers fries slightly [TS]

  but they know the ones that are all beef it's mostly just you know just beef [TS]

  and nitrates Oh yeah well they have a low nitrate one through the month of May. [TS]

  But the whole forever I got a Whole Foods hotdogs once like they have the like [TS]

  and no nitrates baking at Whole Foods they have also it's like healthier equivalents of healthy food really [TS]

  and they're all awful but just terrible I actually said. [TS]

  I recently discovered there's a I don't know the brand name is there's a brand of like hipster Brooklyn hot dogs. [TS]

  They're actually made in Brooklyn and it's like eight dollars for six of them [TS]

  but they're really good they're like super foot long thing and they have the natural casing [TS]

  and there'll be if you wanted There's a commercial option which is also really expensive [TS]

  but this is basically the hotdogs I buys a fair offer something terrible for me a better to tamper with the terrible [TS]

  thing. Boris had a natural casing long hotdog. [TS]

  Yeah it's very similar to the my store has those two they're very little like seven dollars for a pack [TS]

  or something like that. [TS]

  Yeah they're good though like it will go in there were just similar they're they're good because it only has like four [TS]

  ingredients and you know it's mostly beef salt and casing [TS]

  and they're you know given how rarely I actually eat hot dogs. [TS]

  I'm willing to spend a dollar twenty five unusual if I have to do that because they are really good to look that up to [TS]

  be a bore said down your Huizi. [TS]

  Absolutely try those ever ever on this bike I should try those particular hot dogs because I think most people bought [TS]

  into their look weird [TS]

  and people are afraid of them because they natural Kaysing try to like them so much better than every other hot dog if [TS]

  i don't we don't buy anything except Boris at our dog because I want to eat anything else at this point [TS]

  and then you have the regular choice or is it our dogs and the four long ones and you know they're expensive [TS]

  or whatever is worth trying once to see if you care about the difference you know there's a hot dog shop very very near [TS]

  to actually across the street from where I work and don't be creepy and it is really awesome. [TS]

  In part because the casing has set like a really awesome snap to it in Africa. [TS]

  And parents going to chat mentions ne things with Nathan's with natural his and those are hard to find around here [TS]

  but I think they're the best tasting ones I've had that the Nathan's that we're using for long they might have them [TS]

  and a little hard to find [TS]

  but I figure to it like you know if you're eating hotdogs so often that paying about seventy five cents to a dollar per [TS]

  hotdog is a big problem for you I think they're eating too many hot dogs of each other [TS]

  or you may you may be a picky toddler that only had hot dogs. [TS]

  Yes that this rule exams anyone under the age of seventeen. [TS]

  Otherwise you're going to if you're an adult and even to me how dogs than that's a problem [TS]

  and if you're not you know many hot dogs and you can afford a dollar per dog [TS]

  or whatever you can get these good ones who they really are better. [TS]

  Well you really need to find know in my friend Phil. He has found up in the D.C. Area. [TS]

  This guy what is the name of the business I don't remember but it's it's a guy who makes sausage is his name is Losar. [TS]

  He's like six three and three hundred pounds and he's from Hamburg and perfect or some [TS]

  or some like that I forget it somewhere in Germany. And oh my goodness. [TS]

  His sausages [TS]

  or wonderful in that is a terrible poll quote going to pay for it later in life that I don't like one of the now [TS]

  committed sausages that little fart makes are excellent and I should just stop talking now. [TS]

  Can we be done to try to have crazy food part of gas market will pick up most of us. Yeah definitely. [TS]

  Except for cases sauce we love. OK thanks. Oh. [TS]