88: Standing on Opposite Sides of the Gym

0:00:01So this is what people tune in for.

0:00:05Well it doesn't matter because they're here anyway so this is what they're going to get

0:00:12and say let's do some follow up.

0:00:16Why don't we talk about how my life took a turn for the better a day or two ago

0:00:22and no we did not have sprout yet Sprout is still not born

0:00:26but I saw a tweet from our mutual friend Michael journalists

0:00:30and he said something that I did not realize what he said was that for you to use I keep calling it a semester relay

0:00:40I'm not sure if that's a blessed term or not. But for you to use US must relay on Iowa State in Yosemite.

0:00:48It actually does not require Bluetooth low energy like a lot of other new continuity things do it instead just requires

0:00:57both devices to be on an active network and I haven't done any testing to decide to determine exactly what that is

0:01:05but I've heard rumblings that basically as long as your phone is logged into your i Cloud account

0:01:12and connect to the Internet someway somehow

0:01:14and the computer that you're using is connected to that same icloud account

0:01:19and on the Internet some way somehow then apparently you can send text messages by way of your phone which is amazing

0:01:27because I didn't think that that was a possibility with our political energy.

0:01:33Yeah the sweet was a nice summary to try to fit into a single tweet all the different requirements for the different

0:01:38continuity related features a poll put a link to the tweet in the show notes

0:01:41but the summary is hand off tethering airdrop needs to do it all

0:01:45and low energy as a Methodist both in network connections and the phone calling stuff they may need never connections

0:01:51or need to be on the same network.

0:01:53Now this is compressed into a tweet so if there are technical nuances that didn't fit in the tweet don't blame Gerry

0:01:58blame us for just relaying.

0:02:00But it's a reasonable summary of this this type of information is difficult to convey to people because even if you

0:02:06tell them for example that hand-off uses Bluetooth all energy to discover things nobody knows of their MCAS Bluetooth

0:02:11way you know we know the Bluetooth energy is so they see these features or even you know read about them I review

0:02:17and they're disappointed that they can't do it and you know they don't know if they have something called B T L E.

0:02:22So it's it's just a shame really because I don't think Apple needs to communicate effectively alliances

0:02:28but the bottom line is that if your machine doesn't have Bluetooth low energy you're not going to be scanning with a

0:02:33regular bluetooth at full energy all the time on the phone

0:02:36and a mac to be able to do hand off you know the future for the future to be feasible relies on low energy.

0:02:42So and you know that the S. and I thing that make sense they can coordinated through all through the server.

0:02:47The phone I still quite understand tactically of why they need to be on the same network why you know they don't the

0:02:53apparently need to be in Bluetooth range you know me I know you don't need to pair them.

0:02:57But anyway it's a magical mystical voodoo and all these weird technical details will be moot in five years

0:03:04when everybody's gears has all the stuff but for now it's a little weird if you've got an older Mac.

0:03:08You may not get all the things right not so I was so excited because with the exception of Aaron's macro care which is

0:03:14what I used to record the newest Mack in the house is a late twentieth Levin hire as anywhere MacBook Pro which I've

0:03:21talked about numerous times on the show and that is pre Bluetooth low energy

0:03:24and so like I said before I was devastated.

0:03:27That's a strong word but I was really sad that I wasn't to be able to use a lot of this continuity stuff

0:03:32and as it turns out I haven't tried the phone thing although that should work

0:03:36but I have absolutely tried the semester relay and it's really awesome.

0:03:40I really said to Miss airdrop that I am most upset about of the things I'm missing because I can't tell her with my

0:03:48phone and because I'm on an unlimited plan for meeting T. Still and handoff.

0:03:54I don't you know don't use Apple Mail I use their mail so yeah but I was really really accept.

0:04:00I did to try to see that as a mess really works. Can we can we break apart the tethering thing for a second.

0:04:06How much data per month do you typically use.

0:04:08Oh this is where you basically back me into realizing that there is no need for me to hold on to the unlimited plan

0:04:15that is that that is a known issue and I I don't really know why I haven't gotten rid of it yet but I haven't

0:04:24and there's no reasonable reason for me to still have it and to answer your question I haven't looked in a while

0:04:31but I guess I use between two and two and three gigs a month.

0:04:35Aaron is still on a two hundred megabytes a month plan and I keep begging her to let me get her more.

0:04:41She doesn't really use it

0:04:42and especially now that she's at home almost all the time doesn't really need more than that

0:04:48and so there's almost no need for us to.

0:04:52No need for us to upgrade now I haven't crunch the numbers

0:04:55but my limited understanding is it would probably actually be cheaper for us to ditch a limited plan

0:05:00and just get on a shared plan. But whatever.

0:05:03Get a tip and I did that recently she was still on the mill just because she never had any reason to change it.

0:05:08I had given it up for tethering long ago

0:05:10but yet we found I think combined we use something like two gigs a month on average

0:05:16and it doesn't really change that much month a month so I would I would venture a guess that if you had tethering not

0:05:24only would you probably be paying less per month with this with a combined plan

0:05:28but I would guess that whatever benefit to your life unlimited data sounds like it might eventually possibly someday

0:05:34maybe provide and that is if a T.V.

0:05:36Doesn't throttle you too much in the meantime which they do not really unlimited anymore.

0:05:41Whatever benefit it's providing to you I bet the benefit of going to a tethering plan would be greater.

0:05:46I think you're right and as you just pointed out in P.T.

0:05:50or In the chat also pointed out one time I got to either three or four gigs I think it was three

0:05:57and eight hundred eighty different.

0:06:00He sent me a nasty gram saying yeah we're going to slow everything down until the end of the month. Have fun with that.

0:06:05Yes So you know you're basically not getting unlimited data

0:06:07and even great you might you might as well get the benefits of getting rid of the plan and getting the new features.

0:06:13Yeah I know you're right like it's one of those things that momentum is keeping me going in this probably silly

0:06:18wasteful direction so me whatever. So John you were saying about political energy.

0:06:23Continuing our air drop right the lack of air drop is someone made less painful between I.R.S.

0:06:31and Maximises made less painful if you have an older Americans supported by I was hair extensions now there are so many

0:06:37more ways from any Apple the reasonable I was a extension support to you know to use a share extension to press to push

0:06:46your files from one place the other whether I mean I guess you go do it

0:06:49and a lot of apps supported Dropbox you go to need to do that

0:06:52but also things like I mean her viewing is like transmit fry us to transfer files back

0:06:56and forth like you're not as trapped in individual I.O.'s out now as you used to be reliant on Apple's built in airdrop

0:07:03to be the way that you quickly transfer any content from from your i was devised here Max dice.

0:07:12Yeah I think also i Cloud Drive I think is going to be a bigger deal than we all think it is like I think we're

0:07:19probably underestimating it because bringing a Dropbox like storage model to any i OS app that wants it is really nice

0:07:28and I think that's going to have wide reaching ramifications if it works at all.

0:07:34And John you seem to think that I was I was actually paying a lot of attention during that part of your review I mean

0:07:38you know I paste into the whole thing of course

0:07:40but particularly the i Cloud Drive part because I'm very interested in

0:07:46and I'm really hoping that works very well because it can it can really help i O. S.

0:07:51So much as the nice thing is that it's there it's on a reasonably level footing with all those other services that are

0:07:59like. At including Dropbox or you know what is Google Drive or is Microsoft's things called one drive.

0:08:07Anybody can you know once you're on that sheet that comes up with you're sharing things anybody can have something in

0:08:12there.

0:08:13So it's good that it's like if I if I could drive flakes out or ends up being unreliable

0:08:16or something you have so many other options

0:08:18and reliability is speaking of things they're so hard to gauge because any anything memory reviewing us anything that

0:08:26relies on a server side component and it doesn't matter what bits Apple sends me in a developer build of the O. S.

0:08:32There's a service I can point is either not get ready or not turned on or completely buggy.

0:08:37You can't judge the future based on that at all and even

0:08:41when you get what you think is the final build of Apple's servers are still being wonky.

0:08:45It doesn't mean that the bits in the final build a bad it could just mean that the servers are still walking

0:08:49and that you know the day of release they get that they push out the last you know build of the server software

0:08:55and suddenly things work nicely after i Cloud Drive in the early betas you know either didn't work at all

0:09:01or was totally buggy but that doesn't mean anything because they're still working out at that point

0:09:04and then once it's did start working I had like this a series of tests that I went through to sort of gauge reliability

0:09:11of transferring large files moon files doing files putting folder with a bunch of little files in it to try to ram it

0:09:16through its paces

0:09:17and I rewrote that i Cloud Drive sector many times because as it kept getting better I thought OK this is must be how

0:09:24it's going to work and it's not that great and you know it's taking X.

0:09:27Number of seconds for my changes to appear on two different Macs but he just got better

0:09:31and better to the point where the time or the final version of that seconds like it more

0:09:35or less works without any huge delays the U.I.

0:09:37Issues I think are still a possible problem especially now that you see the Dropbox has a version out that uses the new

0:09:46file think relations that extensions I'm assuming because it looks totally different.

0:09:50How can you tell just because they're not over the actual full file or folder anymore.

0:09:53Yeah they're not bad so I'm assuming that's using it I just noticed it today because I upgraded my work McAfee Assembly

0:09:59last night. But yet like the U.I.

0:10:04Issues

0:10:04and reliability of the server parts not the client partners I think where the really it's the road with i Cloud Drive

0:10:11because I mean there's more than one client is that there's all the access to it from various apps on i OS

0:10:16and from you know the various extensions on Iowa State to get to this

0:10:20and then of course as the finder is another client

0:10:22and as a web client the one part that we all worry about Apple getting righted the server part we need to be a reliable

0:10:29fast up all the time and because kind of like Dropbox imagine if you had Dropbox and you had a bunch of little icons

0:10:37and they didn't have little green checks on them they just had like the little you know spinning blue I'm trying to

0:10:44update thing and it never went green like what do you do about it you could drop by three launch it into a Dropbox

0:10:49or install it. It's never really green.

0:10:51Like that's the that's the thing with you know having a drop box

0:10:55but if you did what is your recourse with all these cloud services especially even name drop boxes you have a like for

0:11:01synchronize this file now please thing is just post the work right Emma doesn't you like I don't know what I can do

0:11:07and so that's what I'm always worried about I gotta drive it so young I don't know like am I going to drag a file into

0:11:13it on my mac or work in common to the files not there and I just wait

0:11:18and stare at the folder wait for the file to appear.

0:11:20Like what do I do that I don't I don't know there's not even having done so I disable or enable I drive it.

0:11:27So far so good

0:11:27but I have to admit that unless there is some compelling reason for me to leave Dropbox which I've been using for a

0:11:32long time my habits are all built on I'm going to keep using Dropbox. Me I tend to agree.

0:11:39I don't even know you needled i Cloud Drive I've not ever

0:11:43and this is now the first time I've ever clicked on the i Cloud Drive item in my Finder sidebar.

0:11:50Turns out there's stuff in there. Who knew. It does Dropbox and I last offered that file picker extension yet like so.

0:11:59So it goes in the same.

0:12:00Dialogue as i Cloud Drive I think it does I have and use an app with it

0:12:03but I recall seeing screenshots of it maybe it might not be really haven't tried it I mean I I my habits around i O S

0:12:11are not built around the expectation that there is anything like this available anywhere like i don't use any.

0:12:18It used to be that individual apps would have to build in support for Dropbox and a lot of them did

0:12:23but it just so happens that none of the apps that I use on a regular basis had these buildings or Dropbox

0:12:27and all of that to do have the support arm simming are slowly changing to use the system way to get at that that same

0:12:33extension. Yeah I hope so that's actually one thing like I in absolute I'm using.

0:12:39It's actually really annoying now the ones that still present their own share sheets at their own custom share she

0:12:44didn't use in the system one like that's one reason we know that

0:12:49or is it just just a me thing I was kind of annoyed by the apps that I have that used to do a custom way

0:12:55and now bring that giant sheet up because a lot of time I know I just want to go to paper

0:12:59and I used to be one tap in the obvious and I can play it out now is to tattoo I mean I'll get over it

0:13:04but like now it's to test specially because of the stupid bug where the reordering of the things doesn't stick.

0:13:09Oh I don't know about that and I haven't written anything I have reordered it

0:13:12and it is not stopping other people complain about it as well I don't know that

0:13:15but anyway it used to be one tap on a button to send is the paper now it's one to have to bring up a giant sheet.

0:13:21Luckily Instapaper is usually within one scrolling section but it's not like the upper left I want to

0:13:25or I want to be and I tap into everything and I think so anyway.

0:13:30I would much prefer it this way it's much better to have an extensible system is just we need the kinks to be worked

0:13:35out of it first. The people in the chatter saying the dropbox doesn't yet have the document pick a thing and i O. S.

0:13:41That's a shame if true but I mean the show that in the keynote but maybe the speculative like

0:13:45and that Dropbox could make something like this and they just haven't done that yet.

0:13:49I thought they kind of danced like IMO can be actually mentioned Dropbox by name

0:13:53but I'm pretty sure like that was the very start of location like we're basically building this for Dropbox

0:13:58and a couple other things like.

0:14:00Since you know same thing with the badging essentially somebody is like we are basically don't it's entirety ability

0:14:05for like drop box box

0:14:07and one driver skydiver whatever Michael thing is our first punch of this week is back please go to back Blaze dot com

0:14:15slash A.T.P. Backley is unlimited and untroubled online backup for just five bucks a month.

0:14:22This is really I mean we talked about that place before.

0:14:25So you know I don't need to tell you guys why you need cloud backup

0:14:29but I will anyway because the fact is you know a backup somebody wise recently said

0:14:34and I'm pretty sure this is a very old thing.

0:14:36Somebody wiser recently said that a backup is not a back up if it isn't automatic.

0:14:42And yes I know probably Aramis has said that before anyway moving on.

0:14:46If you have some kind of backup system where you're only backing things up in your house then you could lose data.

0:14:52If something happens to your house that would affect all the things in it

0:14:56or other things plugged in so for example if you only have a computer with a time machine drive.

0:15:00If you get a big power surge or a fire or flood or theft that will wipe out both of those things in all likelihood.

0:15:07And so you don't want every copy of your data to be in your house or plugged into your computer all the time.

0:15:13So you know most people have figured out along the way like oh and off site backup would be nice.

0:15:18Also back with some sort

0:15:20and the problem with that is that usually it's really really hard to ever remember to actually do it so most of the

0:15:24time like you might have like a hard drive in you know at your parents' house

0:15:28or work with some of your files on that you've last updated six months ago maybe at most you know

0:15:33and then forgotten about.

0:15:35With online backup it's so much better because it's just continuously happening in the background

0:15:39or you're always backed up off site and the the class of problem that protects you from is so big

0:15:46and it's so easy because you don't think about it.

0:15:49You're just always being backed up online and among the cloud backup providers I've tried a number of them

0:15:57and I personally stuck with backlit even before they were a spy.

0:16:00Answer I chose them as the best for me and I think they'll be the best for you to do.

0:16:04They're really extremely good so big things first unlimited disk space five bucks a month. That's it.

0:16:10Also the UN throttled point is very important.

0:16:12Many cloud providers can't accept the files quickly enough so even though you can upload them fast they couldn't accept

0:16:18them and so it was going to take you know months to upload my first backup and that was back

0:16:23when that was never a problem they were always very fast they can they can basically accept them as quickly as you're

0:16:28going to send them

0:16:28and their client is a nice job of throttling automatically to make sure there's a mess ending up for you.

0:16:33There is Native it is a it's a preference paint with a menu item.

0:16:38It runs they're always up to date with MAC releases it runs and Yosemite.

0:16:42They also have an i Phone i Pad

0:16:44and Android app you can access your backup files from back plays on the go from your ass you can also say you're like

0:16:51you're like on a trip and you forget to bring a file with you and it's not like a drug

0:16:54or anything you can logon to back ways

0:16:57and restore just one file onto your laptop as you're traveling to get access to it.

0:17:02Things like that it's a really helpful system really nice

0:17:04and all that backup is is just you know to use the word junkie or you're not if you don't have all my backup

0:17:11and so anyway I think what the back was going to back Blaze dot com slash A.T.P.

0:17:16Highly recommended I've used them myself for years now and I definitely recommend you have a cloud backup service

0:17:22and you're going to have it's going to have one and it is the best one anyway.

0:17:25Then quarterback plays for sponsoring the show once again John you have some real time follow up for us.

0:17:31Chat room a couple places a player screenshots of the dropbox Dr Baker.

0:17:37OK Then area of Iowa state so it's a thing there you go.

0:17:42But the link to Iowa with a document writer's story

0:17:49and everyone else take a look out there I'm sure we're not going to think about like what kind of apps though I have an

0:17:54i O. S. That would use a docking figures kind of chicken egg because before you have a generic.

0:18:00I'm bigger if you keep all your stuff on Dropbox then you're not going to have one ever

0:18:03but what apps do you guys use that you would find yourself using a drop I stuck a picture with.

0:18:13Well I think what's interesting here is you know before one of the big problems of doing any kind of like productivity

0:18:20task and I was device if you're working with documents and stuff.

0:18:24One of the problems though is again the files on and off of it and some apps would support the i Cloud documents

0:18:29and data thing it was always limited

0:18:31and I personally little bit afraid to use it because I was I never really knew where those files were written it was

0:18:37kind of weird for me.

0:18:40I Cloud Drive not only replaces that

0:18:42but I think just having this as a thing right now you know it's going to take us a while to realize that we can do this

0:18:49you can pay developers a while to realize that they can do something with this.

0:18:52So I think this is the kind of thing that in six months or a year or two years we might look back on this

0:18:57and say oh my god this this made such a big difference.

0:19:00But right now it's hard to see it because nothing's really using it yet.

0:19:04Yeah I can think of one place I would have liked to use it one to another one doing e-book previews I would've loved to

0:19:11not have to use i Tunes and in the past what I could do is take the versions of the books

0:19:15and throw them in my Dropbox

0:19:17and then I would go to the dropbox climb to dedicate a Dropbox app in the days before Iowa save

0:19:22and find you know whatever file I want open and I would tap on it and it would download in the drop box out

0:19:29and then it would show me little things a sari drop the drop a tab doesn't know how to display this thing

0:19:33but then there was a little button that said open in these applications which understand it

0:19:37and the most recent version of the dropbox app did not understand how to do that with with all the formats that I was

0:19:44using and it would just not offer to open it in the Kindle appart Open ID

0:19:47and the i Books app so if I had a Dropbox document picker I could have gone to the i Books at the use of Dropbox I can

0:19:55pick your simming the docking figures or support all they already know they are and just put that way and same thing.

0:20:00The Kindle app so do it for me

0:20:02but that's one scenario I can think of anything so I don't have to use i Tunes to transfer files. All right.

0:20:09So to continue some follow up do you want to tell us John about some person a person Bluetooth based mesh networks that

0:20:17are particularly popular

0:20:18or perhaps were particularly popular in Hong Kong a couple shows ago we were talking about Twitter

0:20:24and decentralized messaging services not controlled by any one company like Twitter or whatever you know protocols.

0:20:32Instead of protocols like you know I'm a pop and S.M.T.P.

0:20:36Instead of proprietary services like Twitter with the eyes and a lot of guns and all that stuff

0:20:43and I don't remember if we brought this up on the show so I threw in a vault I'm sorry if this is a repeat.

0:20:48But what I was thinking of when we were having a discussion and I might not have remembered to interject was

0:20:54when they're having those protests in Hong Kong the people in the crowd were using an application for messaging that

0:21:01use Bluetooth person to person.

0:21:04So there was no connection to a centralized server of the Internet I think they might have actually even had internet

0:21:09access but to each individual phone

0:21:10and bluetooth the message that we passed from phone to phone to phone phone to spread to all the people in the crowd in

0:21:16this application is an application it's used for.

0:21:20Like if you go somewhere where there's no wife I say go like you go camping or something and so you

0:21:25and your friends can all you know send messages to each other on your information phones even though none of us access

0:21:30or saw access and your own near each other.

0:21:32Yeah well you know you're in you're a bunch of tents set up somewhere you know I mean I think that's what it's for

0:21:38but anyway regardless they were using this technology to basically communicate with each other despite the you know the

0:21:43the government or whatever the centralized authorities making other forms of communication impossible.

0:21:48So I think in a scenario it's kind of weird but this is like a protest or whatever

0:21:53but the dystopian future dystopian so far future is everybody uses Twitter and Twitter is controlled by want to come.

0:22:00Any and the utopian future is.

0:22:04Everybody uses peer to peer mesh networks that can't be controlled by any single government or entity

0:22:09and like there's nothing you can do to break communication in the entire world because we're all just connected to each

0:22:15other by proximity and mesh network and you could you could block out little portions here and there

0:22:20but eventually the mesh will cover everything so I think we're not in either one of the scenarios we're between the

0:22:25dystopian the utopia but hopefully we'll push things the right direction somehow right

0:22:31and a couple shows ago we were also talking about pent i Phones which by the way did that's magically go away.

0:22:37I think it's still there but I don't think there's any new news you know.

0:22:40Yeah well anyway Jared Bill mayor probably buttering that's are you Jared anyway he said that with regard to Apple

0:22:49taking bent i Phones We were talking about how we thought it was interesting that

0:22:54or somebody written in that it was interesting that a genius

0:22:57or whoever it was took notes on the fact what that person was doing with their i Phone bench

0:23:01or something on those lines

0:23:02when he was scared says Apple taking Ben i Phones Apple always does quote engineering captures quote for specific

0:23:09issues on new products for a short time.

0:23:12So that is just a little They are also occurred to me what happened at the Twitter thing today was that the thing was

0:23:20in their thing today. They're yeah they are.

0:23:23They had a developer conference today

0:23:25and honestly I don't I have not a vain attention to what they announce if they announce something called the digits.

0:23:30It's like basically like S.M.S.

0:23:33Two factor as a service that anybody can use some like that but I was out on the details you know and so more the same.

0:23:42You know I don't know. I keep meaning to blog about this.

0:23:44So I wrote an article the other day in anticipation of this conference because I had posted some kind of crazy things

0:23:52saying Twitter is going to start over again with developers and start fresh and reset their image

0:23:55and I basically said no they're not. And the gist of my post was that.

0:24:00They're not trustworthy to developers and there's been a number of responses.

0:24:04Dave Winer notably responded pretty publicly basically saying in short and I hope not but you his argument here

0:24:13but in short that you know we can like pick and choose our gatekeepers

0:24:17and that it's hard for me to say this kind of stuff without pointing out that I accept the Apple App Store gatekeeper

0:24:24and Apple has done such a developers in the past and that

0:24:27and that's all true I think the main difference is alignment of interests though.

0:24:33Twitter there's a great quote let me say I have it open here is and it's on the verge today.

0:24:39There's a comment from somebody at Twitter that said referring to their old A.P.I.

0:24:44Before they put in the restrictions with the token limits and everything for clients they said R E P I was so open

0:24:49but we allowed people to compete with us

0:24:52and that this was this was like their justification for locking it down two years ago with a token limit

0:24:57and everything I think that you know there was soap in that we allow people to compete with us.

0:25:03That right there says a lot more than that person probably planned to say that explains a lot.

0:25:10So what this means is Twitter's A.P.I.

0:25:14Made it possible for people to compete with Twitter and they shut it down because they had to their A.P.I.

0:25:23Has the potential to make people compete with them.

0:25:25It gives people the ability to compete with them it gives people the ability to do things like build a whole following

0:25:30graph like when

0:25:31when Instagram launched Instagram became a social network primarily by importing people's Twitter friends

0:25:37and then building its own side network and then you didn't need Twitter anymore after that

0:25:42and then Twitter of course you as this and cut off access to the to the Friend Finder thing for them

0:25:46and you know these situations will keep coming up Twitter also had a problem where there were some client I forget the

0:25:52name of that but there was there were some company buying a whole bunch of Twitter clients

0:25:55and they were going to start their own like Shadow Network next to Twitter and.

0:26:00And like you could like you'd be able to post to both of them and integrate the timelines and everything

0:26:05and that's that I think was the bigger freak out the Twitter had that was a couple years earlier than Instagram I think.

0:26:10So Twitter get freaked out. You know that you could use their A.P.I.

0:26:14To steal value from them and devalue them and compete with them.

0:26:19If you look at the situation Apple's in with app developers it's a very different situation.

0:26:23I mean yes it's possible that you can make an app that compete on one of Apple's apps

0:26:28but Apple's primary interests are so in the hardware

0:26:30and so if you're if you're a developer making apps the chances that your interests are going to conflict with Apple's

0:26:37interests are extremely low.

0:26:38There's almost no chance for that to realistically happen in any plausible future scenario at least during lease

0:26:45and of future.

0:26:46You know maybe on a Syracuse timescale maybe

0:26:48but there's a you know in the next like you know ten years like how how long is your software likely to last you know

0:26:54five ten years if you if you're lucky.

0:26:57So you know in that time like Apple's interest we're going to change dramatically to the point where they're going to

0:27:01be at odds with what app developers do on a platform and you know the answer is probably not.

0:27:06So I think it's a very different argument to say that oh well Apple has complete control over their platform

0:27:12and you buy into that and you're investing in that and therefore your argument is invalid.

0:27:17Now I don't think that's a fair counterargument.

0:27:20Twitter on the other hand like there are so many ways you can use a Twitter A.P.I.

0:27:24In ways that if you say well if this gets big enough this could be a real problem for Twitter

0:27:28or we've just stolen a whole bunch of value from Twitter like that is so much more likely given what Twitter is

0:27:35and what their A.P.I. Allows access to.

0:27:38That's what makes it so untrustworthy is that the chance that your interests will conflict with Twitter is if you are

0:27:43successful are very very high.

0:27:45I don't think that the structural difference though I think it is the actions of the of the companies involved because

0:27:52I mean when I heard that quote about you know the Twitter saying we actually people compete with us.

0:27:57I just check my head thinking they don't. There their view of A.P.I.

0:28:03Usage is different

0:28:05and it has caused them to act in ways that make someone trustworthy because they've proven they don't understand what

0:28:10the heck's going on there like the aspects of competition you just talked about are real and they are there.

0:28:15But even before Instagram was able to steal value from Twitter by exploiting its you know its relationship graph to

0:28:23bootstrap its own photo social network thing. Twitter only became Twitter.

0:28:29Or so the story we tell ourselves go in our little circle not only of a part at least partially because people third

0:28:36parties made clients that made the service more palatable for people who didn't want to go to their last web page like

0:28:44they were not those people who are using Twitter's A.P.I.

0:28:46To make client software for all these sorts of platforms and to refine

0:28:49and everything like that to for Twitter to view them as people.

0:28:53Even when people compete they weren't competing with you they were helping you become the Twitter you are today.

0:28:58Without them who knows if you would have become the two you could have still been you know like a tent like a service

0:29:05that nobody wants to use because they don't like using your web page

0:29:08and your client software is crappy like who cares that you would be worried about saving

0:29:12and protecting your value like so to view those people as competition is just weird like that was the whole sort of

0:29:17but what we all felt betrayed

0:29:19or the Twitter client developers is like they felt like they helped build this service into what it is today

0:29:24and into it it was like OK I don't need you anymore thanks bye.

0:29:27Whereas Apple for all its weird foibles and everything still seems to be able to keep the eye on the ball

0:29:32and say developers are actually an important part of you know they add value to our devices we can solve hardware

0:29:39because these people develop

0:29:40or is make apps on that of Apple's currently saying hey look at all these apps not being like we even let people make

0:29:46apps to compete with our example would never say that because it's like you know all they do is brag about how many

0:29:51people make that how many apps on the App Store how much money they give to developers like they know the apps

0:29:56and make them without apps their hardware is way less valuable. So.

0:30:00I will put it out like crazy

0:30:01and you know the old hierarchy of Apple needs of Apple first customers first Apple second and developers third

0:30:07and that still annoys developers and Apple still does have a tremendous amount of control over its platform

0:30:11but it's as I said it's not structural.

0:30:13Twitter and Apple have similar amounts of control this point over their platforms.

0:30:17But based on past actions we believe Apple understands to some degree that everyone who makes an app for the App Store

0:30:24is increasing the value of Apple's products whereas Twitter seems hell bent on not understanding the people writing

0:30:31applications into Twitter A.B.I.

0:30:33and All sorts of ways makes Twitter more valuable

0:30:36and you're right there's still this possibility you know exploiting it to bootstrap some of the network itself like

0:30:40that but things like Twitter clients like the reason you know

0:30:44and value networks like no bitch we have a monetization strategy that relies on your not being able to get tweets

0:30:49and where you need build insert tweets in your timeline and ball a ball like that.

0:30:53Tension is kind of of Twitter's own invention over their inability to figure out a business plan that that benefits

0:31:00everybody.

0:31:00So I don't trust Twitter particularly

0:31:03but it's not because they have a lot of control because I was I control it too is because it just doesn't seem like

0:31:08Twitter understands you know their view of the relationship between third parties

0:31:13and their service is just different than my view from the outside. Well but I think Twitter's view is very valid.

0:31:19Twitter's view you know I totally see why they want to own the client experience you know the changes they made were

0:31:25not only to do squash competition from you know stealing from Twitter and Like taking over their network

0:31:32and we're replacing their network but was also to take back control of the client experience for most people

0:31:38and to never let a third party client get as big as their client again.

0:31:42What that allowed them to do then is have the power over their own experience that their product is not an A.P.I.

0:31:50It originally kind of was. But now you know for a long time their product has not been the A.P.I.

0:31:55It has been the Twitter app but that's their view of the service.

0:32:00So our view of the service was you're like email

0:32:02but smaller like you are you are you are a protocol you are a message format.

0:32:08That's not what they actually were like that's how we viewed on the outside in the same way we would make awesome email

0:32:12clients back in the day to work with email and you know clarity calls for a time of Clara's e-mail

0:32:17or come out people love you door involved and those are all email clients and we like the client and

0:32:22but pretty email was email or Twitter was Twitter but like Twitter's view of itself is not that

0:32:26and you don't make money being a company that invents pop or us in the beer or whatever.

0:32:31So that was the tension

0:32:32but like I still get back to Twitter the service would be nothing would be a footnote in history if it wasn't for all

0:32:38of those clients that that added value in Twitter didn't make this point.

0:32:41Twitter couldn't make those clients Twitter could only have made one of those clients at most if it is dry to day

0:32:46control earlier but there was tons of clients that's what Twitter is what it is today.

0:32:50Yes sure but that doesn't matter anymore.

0:32:52That's ancient history I mean anybody anybody at Twitter who possibly care about that is probably left by now

0:32:57but that's the betrayal

0:32:58and that's why we don't trust them anymore like that's why it's not again it's not structural it's not because of the

0:33:03control they have it's because what they have done with that control in the past

0:33:06and it's a divorce between the way we will way we saw Twitter and the waitresses itself

0:33:11and so no change of heart on their part unless they prove that they see their service differently

0:33:15and that we're on the same page again

0:33:17and we don't see they're So you know they're not on the same page just saying oh we let people compete with us that

0:33:22shows that there's still a disconnect.

0:33:24We want to think of Twitter as a protocol a service a message format

0:33:28or whatever we want to think of Twitter like blogging. No one owns blogging right.

0:33:32Just conceptually it's a we know what blogging is conceptually but there's no owner of the technology wise

0:33:37but we want to think of Twitter that way too not that way.

0:33:40So I think will always be sort of you know standing as opposite sides of the gym during the dance

0:33:46and not ever going into the middle and you know I don't see a way out of this to see any overture and less

0:33:53and less Twitter changes mind size to become like an infrastructure company. But that's not going to happen.

0:34:00Yeah I mean it was was the vcs come in and everything it's like well you know they want their money back somehow.

0:34:05All the bases were there and I think we all thought you know when Twitter

0:34:10when Twitter came came to you know to its initial rise

0:34:13and we were writing all these clients that was during the era of web development where every web app was expected to

0:34:18have an A.P.I. Often from the start it was often best wisdom to have an A.P.I.

0:34:22First and build your actual app on top of that. Right like the web app was like.

0:34:27Like who cares about the Web and it's all about the A.P.I.

0:34:29Right this is kind of like this weird time in web development history where everyone just kind of temporarily forgot

0:34:35about making money and aggrandize happens a lot but

0:34:37but this is an especially bad time there are like you know let's make an A.P.I.

0:34:41and See what people mash up with it

0:34:42and the reality is that there's a reason why so many new services these days don't have full size

0:34:51and almost always don't.

0:34:52So these launch with them because that's just a really hard thing as a business case to justify

0:34:58and it opens you up to a lot of risks of things like you know what if Instagram had had a fully P.I.

0:35:03From the beginning where you can read and write and you could make your Instagram client.

0:35:07Then what happens when I want to change the way the client works.

0:35:09You know there was that time in the mid two thousand where A.P.R.'s were expected of the cool thing

0:35:14but that time is over and it's been over for a while

0:35:16and that's never coming back because it's so difficult from business point per perspective from a control perspective

0:35:22it's so difficult to actually maintain that.

0:35:25So you know we might expect Twitter to to some day go back to that or we might be mad they're not doing that now

0:35:30but the reality is it would be a very bad idea for Twitter to ever do that again that was a good move back in the

0:35:36reason ever I was doing it back then it's because it's kind of like a wolf in sheep's clothing where if you make

0:35:41something look like up a protocol or a piece of plumbing

0:35:46or part of the Internet you can get traction among a certain set of people that like you know we like the utopia we

0:35:54think no is there you know here we have an existing protocols and we have an old Pericles we have you know as a sage.

0:36:00The F.T.P. and N.T.P. All these protocols old and new all kind of mixing together in the studio.

0:36:05But now when we make these guys we have the rest format we can turn the Web into a giant A.P.I.

0:36:10Machine in order to be liable to be like the Internet but now people can innovate and you know you have the mash ups

0:36:15and all that other stuff.

0:36:16If you make it look like infrastructure people are attracted to especially thank the people because I'm easily you

0:36:21Michael what can I do with this if I had this baby and that maybe I could build this and that

0:36:24and I think this is great

0:36:26and what you don't realize is that all those companies they have the eyes are like lying in wait

0:36:31and just hoping they become massively popular

0:36:33and then they go I got how we've got you because this wasn't really a piece of infrastructure really this is a wholly

0:36:37owned pride Terry thing we are the only source of it no one else can copy it.

0:36:41We have all the data we can you know you know me

0:36:43and Twitter basically you know one succeeded in that strategy of looking like infrastructure to people who weren't

0:36:50thinking about it to hard

0:36:52and then never realize they're not it's too late it's spread like it's a good way to spread things where if you just

0:36:57made a website people would know like you know I mean I just asked my space how that worked out of my space to try to

0:37:03be a protocol first and then turn the screws in turn to aside

0:37:05and then really probably wouldn't work for My Space But anyway it's much harder to get people to come to your site

0:37:11and make that like his biggest Facebook right. But every whenever I had A P I's.

0:37:17People were mixing them all together and if any of them caught on you could you could lie in wait

0:37:21and say like I'm part of the Internet this is not I'm not a single private company

0:37:26or a single web site I'm invisible I'm a protocol I'm like after that and then grow to tremendous size like that

0:37:31and then change your mind and that's what everybody did

0:37:34and I still think a strategy could work like if you made something look like a protocol everyone would forget the fact

0:37:39that your private company really control it

0:37:41and you can do exactly what triggered it again I think that strategy is not entirely dead because we'll all be fooled

0:37:46again by it I mean the same of apps that net right.

0:37:50Like a slightly better they're charging up front

0:37:51but it was the same situation we would have all done if that's an error becomes trying to say successful women a small

0:37:57step up from Twitter but that would have ended up doing the same thing.

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0:40:20show and excellent. So John I want to quickly ask you what's going on with the review.

0:40:27How's the initial feedback did you have to make any big updates or is it basically the status quo as usual.

0:40:34That's so last week we still talking about other things you never know what it was like twenty four hours

0:40:40or something like that when we when we got to speak about it last.

0:40:42Now mostly updates come in the first twenty

0:40:44or I think I did one book update every couple of hours every time for a while but it's been quiet since

0:40:52and I only put in a couple of one more updates about core storage application which I mean that we talk about the last

0:41:00week the type of things that I think you can test when the final bits aren't out until after you publish your view

0:41:07and also the type of thing that I personally can't test because I don't have a web for computers.

0:41:11Just me here and I had a lawn or harbor map out which is useful

0:41:14but that's still like a total of like five computers you know many of which are the same vintage or similar.

0:41:21So I can't do the time like we installed as low as an you know five different pewters with you know ten different

0:41:27partition configurations each and both internal and external drives and determined you know.

0:41:31So I still don't know under what circumstances does a decide to turn your volume into a core storage volume.

0:41:37Does it sometimes doesn't do it other times I put a correction in the most recent Gratian I put in was doesn't happen

0:41:43all the time it happens under the scenario didn't happen under this scenario

0:41:48and other people on Twitter like installing into their machines with different partition arrangements stuff

0:41:52and seeing

0:41:52when it doesn't doesn't happen so I don't know if I had known that it was that weird like it basically happen every

0:41:58and every installation scenario that I.

0:42:00Did my test hardware so that's why I thought it was done all the time and I asked Apple about it

0:42:04and they were giving explanations of why they were doing it they didn't ever offer the information like oh by the way

0:42:09you know we don't actually do that all the time in these scenarios we want so missing information to be clarified based

0:42:14on what I'm trying to do is make it so that if someone stumbles across a three or five years now

0:42:18or if I try to look something up in their ear five years from now I will see these little corrections in there

0:42:23and understand that this is the way I thought things were on a day release or before

0:42:30but actually things are more complicated so don't take this is the final word. But on that it's been fine.

0:42:37There's been a big difference in feedback over the years between these things used to be that I would do one interviews

0:42:41and I would have like twenty or thirty pages of comments attached to them.

0:42:45Now not that many comments

0:42:47and most of the comments are no longer discussions of the article they're just people complaining about what they do

0:42:52or don't like about your sanity which is fine I guess but it's only a change in commenter behavior

0:42:57and I just I think you know lower volume of comments maybe because they feel like they have other avenues to talk back

0:43:02to me like Twitter or whatever and comments that aren't interested in discussing the article

0:43:07but just are interested in hey everybody was taught by somebody how they're working for you I don't like this I do like

0:43:11that I had this bug I didn't have that bug. Yeah it's mostly done it's off the front page of our slowly fading away.

0:43:23That with the exception of comments is like what is interest if you can if you can say it like it has.

0:43:28Interest rates remain high in recent years in the reviews or is that going up

0:43:32or down it's going down like it has been going down for a couple years it's still not awful

0:43:37but definitely interest is going to I mean you know people just march should not go see says I don't blame them it's

0:43:42the bigger platform it's more popular more people are likely to have it and you know so it's doing fine

0:43:48and everything but it's like if you were to graph it with the past four

0:43:50or five reviews I've read it's a steady downward slope.

0:43:55Do you think it's a problem with the fact that it's now released every year and so that is more frequent.

0:44:00Or is it a little less of a of a build up to new electorally because they're happening so much more frequently now I

0:44:05don't think it's the frequency I think it's just the primacy of the mac in the Apple nerd space is just so much less

0:44:12than it used to be like there used to be all there was it was all about the mac

0:44:15and then I wes has been just coming on strong and now and it's a kind of a generational like even

0:44:22when i O S was just insanely popular

0:44:24and long clips that back in terms of every possible number you can imagine early on the people who were interested in

0:44:31reading about it over the same people who had come up with Apple as the apple of that company that makes Max

0:44:36and I'm super into Macs right and then I us is I think it's interesting too.

0:44:40Now there's generations of people who barely even know the mac exists.

0:44:44They grew up thinking of Apple as the i Phone company and they're super interested in reading about I was

0:44:49and they could care less about the mac I really see a big generational turn over in you know

0:44:54and the people who are you know Apple nerds on the web there's a whole generations of Apple nerds on the Web now.

0:45:00Maybe you know I don't this is one generation or two whatever who think about those the I was a company

0:45:05and that's that's what they're into.

0:45:07In the same way that like the mac people replace the Apple two people like people who are like I'm really into Apple.

0:45:12It's all of the Apple two

0:45:12and it's not you know it's like it's cool to eventually there was a set of people like me who entirely identified Apple

0:45:18as the company that makes the MAC and I could care less about the Apple two.

0:45:21So that's it's a natural consequence of the different number of these products that they sell.

0:45:28Well what the mac is selling more than ever.

0:45:30So do you think it's more more of an issue of just like the nerds not caring as much about each Mac.

0:45:35Update I saw way more of those devices than Macs like in terms of numbers in terms of revenue in terms of profit like

0:45:41every possible metric that I was devices equips Macs easily you know maybe maybe it's just me.

0:45:48I've never once read anybody's long I left reviews because I mean part of it is like I'm involved in I was bitter

0:45:57process so I already know John what's different but.

0:46:00I've never felt the need because it seems like I last change is a kind of more I don't know it.

0:46:07They seem very relatively surface level in what you could possibly discuss about them like you could do a lot of the

0:46:15internals a lot of the reasoning a lot of the like you know under the hood stuff I don't see why people do that with I

0:46:21wouldn't usually use like here's an overview of the features and visuals that have changed.

0:46:26Well there's less poking you can do it I was like you can't you can't get a terminal you can

0:46:30but you know I mean I get with it without going to more heroic lengths you can get a terminal prompt

0:46:34and start screwing around with things

0:46:35and moreover if you do jailbreaking get a good internal process going with things that has ZERO to do with most

0:46:43people's interaction with the O. S.

0:46:45Whereas on the Maccabee open a Terminal A lot of people who use the mac about as part of their experience of using the

0:46:49O. S. Like the terminal is not a jailbreak feature like your bit.

0:46:53And yes I remember of a back in the days before ten point zero came out

0:46:57and all the developer previews that was a hot topic would Apple what Apple shipped the terminal with.

0:47:05You know us ten would Apple ship it but have a disabled or hidden

0:47:09or you know like that that was something researchers thought about because the old school mac users saying you're not

0:47:13going to sell a mac with a command line or whatever.

0:47:15Those of us who are your ignorance are like please let them do this.

0:47:18Like the whole point is it's most of the UNIX was a mac compliant they ship but we like

0:47:22but you know Apple may be just the terminal be a developer download kind of like you know the graph tools are graphics

0:47:30tools are now for X. Go to very well you have to go to A.T.C.

0:47:32To get them whatever you build the user but they want to advertise

0:47:34but it turned out it totally shipped with it they never got rid of it.

0:47:37They never hated the utilities folder it's still there today.

0:47:41All right so but that's that's just not what I want is like

0:47:44and the second aspect is I'm kind of cheating with these reviews I found myself doing it. This is the B.B.C.

0:47:51I found myself going to the metal sessions and taking notes and like what the hell am I doing.

0:47:54Metal isn't even a mac technology but you start thinking of it as a big point of view. You start thinking about.

0:48:00All these things as just part of Apple's platform. Like I could have written that entire swift section this is an I O.

0:48:06As her view medal is I was only

0:48:08but I'm writing about it as if it's an Apple technology because there's nothing stopping it from appearing on the Mac.

0:48:12Except for Apple's willingness to you know point to the G.B. Use that are available on the Mac.

0:48:16Which granted are much more numerous and would be much more difficult and much more reason than to put it on i OS

0:48:21but like so many technologies apply to both that a larger

0:48:24and larger portion of the review could have been you know I could change it to or VO I was eight

0:48:29and put a lot of that same stuff in there so I don't know I don't I don't know that well that has to do with traffic

0:48:35numbers

0:48:36or anything I just I just think the them the mac is less a focus even though so many things that are relevant to the

0:48:43rack or a mac are also relevant i O. S. and Vice versa.

0:48:45Still I us is where everyone's eyes are it do you think it's because there's less to see on Mac.

0:48:51Every year or because no one's paying attention.

0:48:54Well that there was time to say I mean like I mean this is the way it looks totally different you would lay person

0:48:59could tell a difference I think between Mavericks in Yosemite at least of these are two different voices because they

0:49:03just plain look different but I mean this just as much as I mean I was eight

0:49:09when you look at it like oh look the guy was somewhat even different

0:49:13and unless you know all extensions on people of that there are absolute better in this way or whatever

0:49:17but it's really like I was a it was a much more subtle change from seven than Yosemite was for Maverick so I don't

0:49:23think that was the problem either.

0:49:24Like if anything people should be super bored by I was eight

0:49:27and really excited by somebody if just based on like the sort of in your face wow factor of the changes because I was a

0:49:35dozen not in your face about almost anything you know to go back marker you had said who writes a really big Iowa state

0:49:42review for the show Rene Ritchie did a pretty solid one for I mourn that we should definitely mention in fact I believe

0:49:49it was crashing Safari I don't remember if that was on the macaroni or west but the darn thing is a single page

0:49:55and it's so darn big that it ended up causing issues for a lot of users. That's how in-depth it was.

0:50:01I concur with what you were saying that it's harder to poke it I alas it's harder to get the depth that John does with

0:50:06a less ten review but nevertheless his I was the review was huge. Yeah when I look at the I O.

0:50:13Us updates I always thank my lucky stars that I'm not doing and I was like maybe not so much an A but I can seven

0:50:20and everything because there is so many changes so many things that are different so many screens

0:50:25and just all the screen touch have to retake every time there's a new beta.

0:50:29Yeah well you know I don't know if it's better

0:50:32or worse that you'd be filling your camera with screen shots here that they don't have a good way to screenshot things

0:50:37you know it's like crop and you know.

0:50:38Anyway I guess is kind of easier in that all your screens are so full screen on Windows and backgrounds

0:50:43and especially seventy what the various I.O.'s updates have been like Wow I'm glad I'm not reviewing this because they

0:50:49had a ton of new features because it was the young Oh yes and they just added tons of you know like thing.

0:50:54So everything changed you know there's not there's very little that to build an abstraction is the way you deal with

0:50:59you know the self like when I added multitasking

0:51:02and stuff those are those are big changes we expect that in the early versions of our now it seems like it's settling

0:51:08down a little bit so now you have teachers like extensions which seem to be non featured at all you just like go I

0:51:13don't see anything different like you got away for the app then it will be totally different but just trust me

0:51:17but how do you really review that and you've got to talk about it.

0:51:21Speculative Leigh maybe it may be that the difference that I'm that I'm perceiving or whether it's real or not.

0:51:28Maybe the difference in perceiving is that the I.R.S. Reviews that I've seen all seem to be extremely long.

0:51:34I don't want a comprehensive overview of everything.

0:51:37OK sounds like just a slide show like a lot of people do that you know get a gallery

0:51:41or a slide show here's every screen it's different right.

0:51:43I mean an artist is that a slide show like they're asked me if I was going to galleries in marriage you could have a

0:51:49gallery feature where you can just take a whole bunch of

0:51:50or is having a carousel that you have to flip through them right on the page

0:51:54and I said no I'm not going to have any galleries because I'm old

0:51:56and the way I do things is I write words on a screen shot.

0:52:00And then I write more words and as you know it's like it's interleave like it would never be like

0:52:05and here's fifty photos of this new app.

0:52:07You know even if I could put a caption every single one that's not this is not how I do or of you

0:52:11but this so since I didn't do

0:52:13and they did a slide show that showed essentially years of this kind of like a maverick here's what I look like in

0:52:18Yosemite Africa. Each one had a caption or not but that gallery was tremendously popular.

0:52:23Like a lot of people do want that out of the thing

0:52:25and the other thing you talk about I got a reference type thing those in the old days where you'd go to the bookstore

0:52:30back when we had bookstores

0:52:31and there would be like you know you know all them a guide to Macca was a to learn macro as a twenty one days

0:52:39or whatever

0:52:40and it would just be this gigantic paperback book that would just go take you through laboriously every single featured

0:52:45a time here's how your name a file in the Finder Here's how you move here how you copy a file I just every single

0:52:50friggin thing you need to know do you like essentially a manual for the O. S.

0:52:53And that's not a review at all that is that is the manual.

0:52:56Right and there's a place for that as well but like these days.

0:53:00No one's going to write a book like that at least not trying to be out of the time Yosemite's launch

0:53:04but probably something like that in bookstores but that's not what people are looking for and back in the day

0:53:09when I was on top of it and when the OS was small I could pretty much document every single pixel the change

0:53:14and every single new short keyboard shortcut in behavior

0:53:16but it's been years since Macko us ten has been small enough for me right now just to begin.

0:53:22Once I started to have to pick

0:53:24and choose which things that were important that was a big transition America because going from ten o o ten one I

0:53:30could try to find every single thing because there was like five things that changed you know except for it.

0:53:35But going from you know ten four to ten five forget it like there's no way that that I could fit everything in under

0:53:44that is under I still have power though.

0:53:45You'll be able to tell and I go out I get e-mails from Nice analogy downstairs when the U.P.S.

0:53:52Kicks in it sends me an email and says phonology is running on your best hour

0:53:55and then says you know the e-mail says up I'm back in regular power and I.

0:54:00When I get that that means either someone plugged into many vacuum cleaners or the same circuit

0:54:04and you know a dual power blip or as we just heard here earlier the houses on the street lost power

0:54:11and our power flickered for a second so I know our power flickered because like an email about it from my I never get

0:54:18that storage device that is tied to logical events and right there that timing was fine editing as observed.

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0:57:03L Y N D A dot com slash A.T.P. Thanks a lot to learn that a congressman once again.

0:57:09All right so let's talk a little bit about Yosemite.

0:57:13I don't know why I said it like that but it sounds good in my head.

0:57:16What it what it Stephen

0:57:17or might say was a US ten Yeah you know a stand that was amazing Stephen who yells at me for retina Padmini did I say

0:57:23where the pen Mini I meant retina Padmini said US ten

0:57:26and I yelled at him about this me so it was an action into Oh I think it's better I think it's an improvement I think

0:57:30we should go with that use Neal as tent.

0:57:32Oh I think so too but he's the king of the pedantic people when it comes to these sorts of things.

0:57:39So we're going to talk about your Ryan Mack later Hi Stephen. But for now it's about sanity.

0:57:48So have you installed it Marco. No I have it I have it on my laptop that I hardly ever use.

0:57:53I have not is one of my desktop for reason that will make you angry. I.

0:58:00Probably should know what you're alluding to because we're going to replace it.

0:58:03Yeah because you seventy kind of apparently looks like crap on non retina screens so I'm trying to never see it on an

0:58:11on retina screen. Doesn't look like crap it just doesn't look as nice.

0:58:16It's so adorable for you guys who live

0:58:19and not you John I should say you Marco who lives in this oh so mighty fine tower high up in the beautiful middle

0:58:27beautiful sea.

0:58:29Well I will only look at things on my flick of the hair retina screens I don't want to be I don't want my actual

0:58:36retinas tarnished by non retina screens. OK I hate towers I have no hair I hate the water are nowhere near the water.

0:58:43You know what I mean you know what I mean I have to seriously I have precisely zero retina Macs in my house

0:58:50and only a couple of people have them at work.

0:58:53Those of us who live in the real world have to look at Yosemite on regular screens and you know what.

0:58:59I actually don't think it looks bad.

0:59:01I will say however that there are there's so much white It's like white everywhere

0:59:07and I kind of miss having a little bit of contrast.

0:59:11I do think it looks pretty but gosh especially since I've run multiple screens

0:59:17and I typically don't use full screen mode for a lot of stuff. It's just white everywhere.

0:59:23Where do you see ready you see all the way like what I don't have heard people say that it

0:59:27but I don't that's not the impression that I get I get different impressions of the You either like I guess Liz let's

0:59:34contrast but I don't see all the white like where were you seeing this white coming from where it wasn't before.

0:59:38Well here's here's a question Casey.

0:59:40You are the most recent Windows user among us are you a window Maximizer only for a couple of windows so I always run

0:59:51more fusion speaking of Windows. I always run that in a window.

0:59:54But taking up an entire screen I find that it behaves better when it's in a window rather than. When it's full screen.

1:00:01My text editor of choice for my web site what I'm writing for that which isn't terribly often is Adam judges you well I

1:00:10don't care. It works for me. That's the good one. Yes look good by the way I like it.

1:00:15But to be fair I'm not a particularly heavy user of a text editor I don't have particularly involved or complex needs.

1:00:23So those of you who are like face palming and and like somebody in the chat is saying yuck seriously.

1:00:30Yes seriously because you know what.

1:00:32It works for me I don't have a lot of complex needs and it works just fine so that I run full screen

1:00:38but just about everything else I run in a window. So where is all the way.

1:00:41Where are you seeing so much any non-active window which if you have a few of them on the screen maybe they're grainy

1:00:49like I'm not a designer.

1:00:50They are there they're like they're lighter gray maybe than they used to be

1:00:53and there's less contrast between the parts like the window widgets go lighter grey not doesn't Congress as much as

1:00:59they and even things like you know the window like the toolbar thing like in Safari

1:01:03or whatever is a little bit lighter and less of a gradient

1:01:05but I don't find a prickly blinding I still find it pleasing and nice

1:01:09and I think it's a nice aesthetic upgrade my one big complaint

1:01:13and I talked about it extensively in the review is the whole transparency issue I think you know that the thrust of the

1:01:21that's actually there it was like here's what they're doing here is the technology behind it

1:01:26and you know here is how it manifests in the O S and then and then the question of why why are you doing this.

1:01:32What's the point. What I you've done this thing. I see how you're doing and I see the different ways of using it.

1:01:38What are you trying to say where you get to what and this transparency.

1:01:42What is that behind the menu bar that I desperately need to see.

1:01:46Do it you know I don't really see details that I need to see hints of the color of

1:01:50and stop acting like what is the helping you all you all you're doing is like potentially impairing readability

1:01:56potentially making things ugly and exchange.

1:02:00Our dot dot dot and so I think I asked Apple this and I pulled out his own quotes from W.C.

1:02:08Which is public and everything.

1:02:09Here's what they said in exchange for you know the temperature

1:02:12and mood of your desktop background leaking through into the things and by the way this is a gust on the talk show

1:02:17and you are confused about it I tried to clarify the matter of you but maybe not enough sentences about it.

1:02:24So the two kinds of blending

1:02:25and vibrancy this transparency they wanted in window blending where you're scrolling up something behind the toolbar

1:02:30and whatever it is you're scrolling up behind it to a bar kind of like shows through the toolbar little bit right

1:02:35and the second one the weirder one is Africa Open It's called it

1:02:40and the other kind of the other hand transparency is where it's composite

1:02:44and with the other things that are on the screen so like the sidebars have that kind of transparency where if you have

1:02:50something with a sidebar

1:02:52and you wave something around behind it like another window you can kind of vaguely see the thing you're waving around

1:02:56behind it through the transparent if you like control drag

1:02:59or something you know bring to the you know only the window in the front has this transparent effect on it so you have

1:03:04to sort of drag window behind something and drag the window in front back

1:03:07and forth in front of something you can see that's going on right for that transparency mower you can see the stuff

1:03:12behind the window. Apple also takes a touch of your desktop pattern and also mixes it into that right.

1:03:20And it's subtle so that people don't even see it if you don't point it out

1:03:24but if you just take like a transparent I have little application just as a you know transfer of light

1:03:31and dark transparent windows I can strike anywhere to take anything with a side bar take a huge white text that window

1:03:37put it behind

1:03:38and put the transfer window over you like art the only thing is behind its windows in totally empty one hundred percent

1:03:42white thing right and you put it over it

1:03:44and if you have like a very intense color desktop background like one of Apple things were grass

1:03:50or something everything is all green.

1:03:52You'll notice that your side bars tend to be green and you like why the hell is my sidebar ten degree

1:03:56and the only thing behind the side bar is one hundred percent white opaque window.

1:04:00Where is the green coming out of the answer is is coming from your desktop background did you change your desktop

1:04:04background or something it's all red. Suddenly your side bar will be tense with red.

1:04:07Now when you have something other than a complete white behind it you to miss this.

1:04:12If you take like a little hint of brown because you're just kind of brownish

1:04:16and you mix it with whatever is behind it like a picture that's behind it you'll never see that hint of brown

1:04:20but if you just have white behind it you'll see the center of this other color

1:04:23and this does you know take the temperature and mood or whatever of your desktop and put it into your windows

1:04:29but why I have a desktop out and I like it work which is like my son standing in a bunch of pumpkins.

1:04:35So it's a lot of green a lot of a lot of orange for the pumpkins and his blue jacket that he's wearing.

1:04:40And now all of my side bars are infected with the orange you know a rusty tinge I love that picture.

1:04:48I did not like the orange tinge on all of my menus

1:04:52and sidebar So I'm faced with a choice change my desktop pattern picture which is now leaking into all my windows

1:04:58or turn on transparency and you know it's kind of like working as designed.

1:05:03It is it is changing the mood of my desktop but not for the better and my opinion.

1:05:09Yeah I mean that's it it's so weird to me because I look at this and I genuinely think wow this really is pretty

1:05:17and I think to myself you know I like the look of it

1:05:21and then two seconds later I look at maybe the other screen because I'm a two screen kind of guy and I'm

1:05:27and that's where all the non-active windows are

1:05:29and yes maybe it's gray it's white whatever doesn't matter the point is there's no contrast

1:05:34and just it's like a wall of very very very very light gray and that I don't care for

1:05:39but generally speaking I do like the look of it it does seem more modern. It seems nice.

1:05:47It's a little creepy going over the windows in seeing what is the Metro and hair and glasses.

1:05:54That's what I'm thinking why do I know this and you know I don't know.

1:05:57So anyway I look at the arrow and I'm like Oh look that's. Don't want to wait that's been that way for a while.

1:06:04So they all kind of blend together a little better now

1:06:06but all in all I like the I like the work even though it's weird I like a lot of the new features like the estimates

1:06:13relay that I was talking about that's really awesome. But I mean you know it's new it's cool. I enjoy it.

1:06:20Sums up I'm a little worried like looking at this you know sometimes

1:06:25when you introduce a new design it takes people allowed it to really like adjust to it because it's like it's so

1:06:31shockingly different from the last one like I was seven when that was unveiled it's like whoa this is so different.

1:06:37But eventually people like this is really good I think heavy use of translucency in desktop interfaces with overlapping

1:06:45windows is questionable it's always unquestionable is questionable in Windows when Windows Vista did it

1:06:50but a decade ago now that's kind of sad actually but anyway we are so old looking at this

1:06:59and it's I think it's kind of a near like is this really good idea and like I don't think anyone looking at this

1:07:04and saying this looks amazing everything about this is such a good idea I think it's a lot more measures like well some

1:07:11of this looks good some of this is kind I don't know what they're doing and I guess maybe we'll get used to it.

1:07:16Like is anybody really enthusiastic about the design. I haven't heard it.

1:07:19I have this to say for like if you if you look at the screenshots if you scroll to remember view is nine times as I

1:07:25have just you know scrolling through looking at things like that and the screen shots

1:07:30and the Yosemite view I think are the most visually interesting of any review because like I mean you know all the

1:07:37other reviews toolbars look like two hours away from a never change an interview of course I'm explicitly taking

1:07:42pictures of the window with different things behind it with different things growing up

1:07:46and they look amazing to me like as sort of like interesting works of art you know like I love

1:07:52when I scroll is your I love the crazy Rainbow Colors truth is through these things like It looks it's pretty to me

1:07:58like you know I was I me.

1:08:01I'm emphasizing on picking the most extreme scenarios to show you what your windows might look like

1:08:05and partially I'm doing it to show how bad it is like for example in the Safari screenshot way show the different

1:08:09rainbow colored windows like this is all the same window I'm just changing tabs look crazily different the window looks

1:08:14but if you just look at an isolationist pieces of art or even like the docks

1:08:17and different backgrounds they all look really nice and interesting like so I can.

1:08:21There was the other reasoning like we're doing this because we want to let you control the mood of your west by

1:08:25changing the picture

1:08:26and also we're doing this so that things look pretty like that same reasoning to anything like fashion like we wanted

1:08:31to look pretty I think it does look pretty and a lot of scenarios

1:08:34and the thing is I think we just went a little bit over the line I think

1:08:39but the stand there if you like this habit they have of trying to do something going too far

1:08:45and then having to back it off they did in Iowa seven with a super thin fonts and backed off before release

1:08:50and you know I had to they back up any stuff

1:08:52and I was eight maybe a little bit more I don't know I don't know the details but an honest

1:08:56and they've done it like crazy in ten point zero in the previews they had a super translucent inactive title bar

1:09:01and all windows and they backed that off because it was a bad idea.

1:09:03They had all sorts of other kinds of pinstripes

1:09:05and translucency that were just way too strong that they had to back off later.

1:09:10Even the translucent menu bar which I railed against and thought was ridiculous.

1:09:14They backed off and added in a checkbox for right so I mean maybe this is just the way you go you know go too far

1:09:20and then take it back and instead of being too timid.

1:09:22But I think they've essentially going to begin I think they only want a little bit too far.

1:09:26Like I like the translucent dock I think that is a perfect use of hey make it pretty and have crazy cause behind it

1:09:31but you can still see your icons because it's pretty chunky like huge icons.

1:09:36Maybe when you get smaller gets worse they could've had the opacity increases they got smart they want to be clever

1:09:41but I think I'm fine with that.

1:09:43The translucent title menu bar I really don't like I would have wished they had a check mark there

1:09:47but it's not the end of the world

1:09:49but the sidebars over kill me because I like using Outlook all day at work I don't want to see this muddy dingy side

1:09:57bar where some text is doing a vibrancy.

1:10:00And in some taxes and

1:10:01when you're selecting the good boldness just like the people who made a look never designed their app with that in mind

1:10:06then all of a sudden they find themselves running on your family

1:10:08and their entire cyber are just totally screwed over and looking ridiculous and I look at it every day

1:10:13and it's like a scene that's a lower contrast now than it used to be.

1:10:16It's muddier than it used to be

1:10:18and I'm faced with a lot of decision about changing a desktop picture I like because it's infecting my windows so

1:10:23they're so close like there was just one checkbox and say no trends in menu bar none close inside bars.

1:10:28Everything else about the system I think is great I think the buttons look way of better.

1:10:32I even like a little skinny progress bar as I think it looks clean

1:10:35and crisp I like the window which is even though I could move in little things with my eyeglasses because of chromatic

1:10:40aberration. Well you see there they were the thing.

1:10:43Steven hacker posted a pretty good photo I think it was him that it actually like the X.

1:10:48Is actually off center in the in the bottle.

1:10:51That's just some pixel some pixel rendering for that it's not actually off center.

1:10:54No I think it actually is I think it's a hand takes a half point also on retina screen section one pixel off on someone

1:11:03sent in a screen shot of the actual pixels like from Pixie.

1:11:05You're right and it was centered but they do some pixel if you look at the picture elements it gets often

1:11:12but I read a chromatograph variation with eyeglasses trumps all of that I can move I can move that circle so the axis

1:11:17Presley poking out of the side of it you can just turn your convergence knob in your head and fix it.

1:11:22Now it's not that works.

1:11:24Lighting light enters the lens as they enter the pupil and all that stuff

1:11:28and anyway that's all separate issue I almost put that in their view but I thought it would have been a distraction

1:11:32but I have been tweeting about it.

1:11:33People don't know what we're talking about window widgets and Mavericks are solid primary colors red yellow

1:11:40and green and different colors bend different amounts when they go through lenses

1:11:46and the the little glimpse inside the circles are completely black So if you have glasses powerful glasses

1:11:52and you turn your head so that the red light comes in a different angle the red green and the yellow widgets will move.

1:12:00You've put the black will not move as much.

1:12:02So what it looks like to you what it looks like it looks like the exits inside the red circle. Look for that X.

1:12:06Is moving to the side and so now the axis touching left edge of the circle. Now the next step in the right is now the X.

1:12:11Touching the top of the circle like you want the X.

1:12:13To be centered

1:12:14but as you move your head the extremes to move around what's really happening is that the circles move around the axis

1:12:18kind of things that will be the way that will bring to the Wikipedia article on chromatic aberration this is just how

1:12:24lenses and light work.

1:12:25This is an effect that is emphasized by the fact that is just plain flat red instead of being like the little jewel

1:12:31like specular highlighted reddish thing where it is much less visible.

1:12:36So a lot and even if you don't have glasses Mark I was talking about is if you just look at the pixels.

1:12:42I know for some pixel rendering it's going to be off by at least a partial some pixel

1:12:46and Margo seem to think that it's all saw by one hairline half a point pixel on retina which I'm not sure about

1:12:53but it wouldn't surprise me if they just didn't have the right never fickle so anyway.

1:12:58I don't fault the design for that I think the design looks great

1:13:01and people with glasses all the colors are shifting I mean everyone glasses knows we used to look at C.R.T.'s you could

1:13:07do converge the edges of the screen

1:13:09and see like a red line on ledge of the screen the blue line the other edge like a sister my glasses work I would I

1:13:14would not design a no S.

1:13:15Around avoiding that there's no avoiding it a white square wall will demonstrate Miss convergence if you cut your head

1:13:22in a powerful enough glasses so we glassware is just deal with it and everyone else you know.

1:13:28I think that's fine I guess that's why I didn't buy it in their view it was I knew about it from a long time ago

1:13:33but I'm like this like it's kind of like I don't want to make another bend to good type thing like Yosemite comes with

1:13:37a feature that causes window widgets to leave their circles it's like it's just guys chill.

1:13:43It could be a really advanced parallax feature

1:13:45and it's not parallax I thought until I don't I don't need any extra elements that are moving in relation to each other

1:13:52so going back a minute before I move on Dillon back a minute to the blur being potentially annoying

1:13:58or being a downside. Certain designs.

1:14:01If you look at the design of Windows Phone seven

1:14:05and the kind of Metro design that brought in it has a lot of downside

1:14:08and just like the the design language it creates has certain limitations with things like showing complex navigation

1:14:16and you know showing things being tappable versus not

1:14:19and things like that that there are certain challenges that that entire design language an entire design style just has

1:14:27certain built in shortcomings that like it is not possible to design X. Well in that style.

1:14:34Every design style has things like this do you think the Iowa seven like aesthetic

1:14:40and the way it has been kind of half taken for you or somebody do you think that requires the blur.

1:14:49It's a language you know to to look right or to be harmonious with the minium and everything else around it.

1:14:57Do you think it requires that or do you think the blur is like just a cost that we have

1:15:05when building certain kinds of interfaces with this new style that we're going to have to live with.

1:15:09Or do you think they could have done something else there that wouldn't just totally look crappy that you could've done

1:15:15the family resemblance by using that blur in the places that were already translucent so use it on the dock obviously

1:15:21use it on little overlays the come when you change the screen brightness or volume right.

1:15:25Is it on like you know floating palettes or like you know the many pulled out menus

1:15:30and stuff like that effect which is not just a blurry it's a blur.

1:15:33Plus you know pulling forward of certain colors an increasing saturation in certain areas like that is that statically

1:15:39pleasing effect that adds interest without taking away you know readability because I thought one of the things that we

1:15:44want to show what's behind it

1:15:46but we don't want what's behind it interferes so we have this crazy effect all over Iowa seven for transient things you

1:15:51could be on you know Yosemite for transient things as well where you get into trouble is

1:15:56when you start making it part of permanent your interface almost like the sidebars into a box.

1:16:00The two bars I can see what they're doing there.

1:16:03Because if you just made it to a bar like opaquely as I said they're completely opaque it still looks pretty handsome

1:16:09like it's not it's a nice design but it's also kind of plain and the in window blending as annoying as it can be

1:16:15and as distracting as it can be and sometimes as ugly as it can be also sometimes adds interest

1:16:19and has less of a chance of impairing readability because not a lot of words

1:16:23and toolbars like it's a bunch of big fat buttons the buttons are still opaque.

1:16:26You're not really hurting readability the sidebars are just a bridge too far because they're filled with text.

1:16:31You are hurting readability

1:16:32and it's such a huge part of the application like a new Safari window the toolbar is one hundred percent great

1:16:38but you haven't scrolled anything up behind to get

1:16:39or any web page scroll to the top like there's nothing behind to get it just you have a chance for it to be a hundred

1:16:44percent gray but the sidebar outlook is forever infected by my desktop pattern

1:16:47and possibly even worse infected if there's nothing behind it except for the desktop

1:16:51or some other crazy window behind it so I think you could have gotten the family resemblance without going as far as

1:16:59they did but I think what more were they were going for is how do we make this interesting.

1:17:05And someone said hey look at this I can mix colors into the parts of the U.I.

1:17:08and It is kind of very like like the Arab glass if you talk about which is like kind of like what I was ten that I

1:17:14forget was that was in ten point zero or D P three or D. Before something.

1:17:17Well I guess there are any window that was inactive its title bar was kind of Aero Glass They didn't have the didn't

1:17:24have the ability to blur back them because they were taken in too slow

1:17:27but it is made it super transparent like it really looks like frosted glass like ten percent capacity right.

1:17:33But you know you're somebody doesn't so it doesn't make every single title translucent you can see what's behind it.

1:17:38It makes the title bars one hundred percent opaque until something scrolls up behind it if you happen to do in window

1:17:43blending in.

1:17:44And developers can choose to do that

1:17:45or not it's not like Aero Glass hour glass was a bridge too far I hate seeing people's windows machines that have air

1:17:51glass because they just look like a damn mess. It's like it's just too much.

1:17:55Side bars are also too much but not everyone has a side bar and.

1:18:00It's it's not like they took the entire West and said everything is see through.

1:18:05They just made maybe one or two too many things. Show what's behind them.

1:18:10But always see I like the transparency in principle

1:18:15but I agree with you I think it's been turned up too high if you will.

1:18:19And and it needs to be backed off a bit and it's not even it's not even up to high.

1:18:24It's like it was I think it's the right amount it's just like like I said their view if you're developing an

1:18:29application it's actually ties into the extension section Cleaver not like the old dead world of extensions is like I

1:18:35write a great app and then someone comes along and jumps into my memory image of my process

1:18:40and start screwing with it like I wrote an app I did bug did I tested it.

1:18:45I'm sure it works correctly and then you're going to jump into my code and put a jump instruction there

1:18:50and jump off from some other section of code

1:18:51and jump back there are a few changes state of something in my program I can't defend against that how can I debug

1:18:56something when I don't know

1:18:57when someone is modifying my code while it's running like I have no idea who these people are what their software does

1:19:02what it's doing to my application it's unsupportable

1:19:05and that's why people hate extensions that our memory never patching is then screw you know because a software

1:19:10developer is like the worst thing in the world like look to bug my own program with code that I wrote is hard enough on

1:19:15top of the bug in the O. S.

1:19:16Libraries there is like that

1:19:17but now you telling me that while my perfectly debugged nice program is running some other program that someone who I

1:19:22never met is going to jump into my program and change how it behaves.

1:19:26That's crazy it's unsupportable right well if you're a designer and you say I'm going to design an application

1:19:32and it's going to look like this and I'm going to make sure everything is nice

1:19:35and I make sure all the Texas readable and all the interactions are nice or whatever

1:19:38and then I have no control over what the background of my sidebar is that it's up to whatever is behind that window

1:19:46and whatever the person's desktop background as I was relying on the system to keep my text legible and not look ugly.

1:19:52That's not as untenable as memory patching stench because of a crash or app

1:19:57but from a design perspective it's almost untenable.

1:20:00Like I can't you know if you don't even give me the option to make that completely opaque I feel like it is can you the

1:20:05sidebar anymore I just have to you know use a different U.R.L.

1:20:09and Because I did not want I can't control what you're going to put in my window how much was the design it

1:20:13when I can control that. Anything else on your family.

1:20:17Tons more news I'm even offered today if I want to very quickly talk about Apple Pay

1:20:22and complain that I haven't had a chance to use a gap

1:20:25and that was most of the reason for bringing it up the other part of this I want to bring up whatever part of the

1:20:29reason I want to bring it up is it struck me just a few minutes ago.

1:20:33It seems to me a little odd that neither target

1:20:35nor Home Depot who arguably need Apple pay the most since they seem to be leaking like a sieve

1:20:41when it comes to credit card numbers. Neither of them are supported right now which is a bummer.

1:20:45Well there's there's a pretty big downside to this for them

1:20:49and that is that the way they used to run credit cards they could automatically track you

1:20:53and everything you bought identified by your credit card number and the name that was read to the readers

1:20:58and so they were I don't know that they did this but they probably did.

1:21:03They had the ability to make money off of off of that and you know Mark it to you in some way

1:21:10or at least track what you were doing

1:21:12and sell that data to somebody so like Apple to actually removes a revenue stream from these people

1:21:17and so I can totally see why certain vendors are not going to be interested in doing this

1:21:23and you know eventually they'll be pressured into doing it anyway.

1:21:25But I can see why they would want to be launch partners at least

1:21:28and would want to do it sooner than they have to because they depend on being creepy as part of their business model

1:21:34and Apple is taking away one way that they can be creative.

1:21:37Well yes

1:21:38but they are to have in the case of target anyway they have alternate ways of being creepy which is their shoot it's

1:21:44like a shopping cart app I forget the name of it now and it's going to drive me nuts

1:21:47but basically there's an app that you can get and you can scan bar codes while you're standing in the store

1:21:57and it will selectively issue you. Coupons and so then when you go to check out it puts up a Q.R.

1:22:05Code card we'll thank you Friday pants in the chat. Interesting name by the way. It will show it will show a Q.R.

1:22:12Code that they scan and in on a cart wheel app and then that'll give you money off

1:22:17and granted it's nice for the consumer because you get a little bit of a discount

1:22:20but I am quite confident they're doing exactly what you describe which is check tracking that.

1:22:26OK Aaron and I went in and we looked at this thing and it didn't have a discount we looked at this thing

1:22:31and it didn't have a discount but we looked at that thing and it did have a discount

1:22:34and you know piecing that all together

1:22:37and wasn't a target that ended up telling somebody else Dad that his daughter was pregnant. Yeah there is that story.

1:22:45Yeah they sent the house like diaper coupons or something like that because the daughter had gone to Target

1:22:51and bought like pregnancy tests or something along those lines I forget exactly what the details were.

1:22:56So you make a very good point which actually I hadn't considered.

1:22:59But nevertheless I'm just bombed that I'm looking at the list of people that are accepting Apple Pay

1:23:08and I Cajun only go to McDonald's I actually happen to really like their breakfasts.

1:23:14I more often go to Pinera bread but haven't been back since Monday. We already spent all of our money.

1:23:20I know what I'm saying I haven't been there in a couple of weeks. Bonaire and today that's really rough.

1:23:27It's terrible we spent all of our money a Babies R Us a week

1:23:30or so we can only be two weeks ago I was actually at a Walgreens just a few days back

1:23:35but it was like Sunday so man this terrible I haven't used to get I don't know what to do.

1:23:41I apparently have to go buy some stuff I don't need. I seem you haven't used a marker.

1:23:45I used it once at Whole Foods yesterday or something. Oh and how they DON'T TELL ME ABOUT IT WAS GREAT.

1:23:51What I was really incredibly impressed by was how insanely fast it was like so ever since you can touch ID on a regular

1:23:59basis on my phone.

1:24:00On my my typical thing is I pull the phone out of my pocket

1:24:04and as I'm pulling out of my pocket my thumb is already on the home button

1:24:07and has already tapped it so it is unlocking as I'm listing it up to the time I read it up to my face level

1:24:13or whatever level I'm using that it is almost always unlocking by that

1:24:17or has already unlocked by them so I get to this instinctively I raise it up

1:24:21and I saw on screen my credit card for a split second I saw the Touch ID thing fill in the fingerprint for like

1:24:29literally half a second and it was done. I'm like well but it was so fast I blew me away.

1:24:37I still have the sign No it was it was just over a hundred dollars.

1:24:40Maybe that's why I did not the size that was like a little bit like like an animal you know but.

1:24:46But then when I went to I went to another store later on that day to get some other stuff and.

1:24:51And of course I do use a regular machine

1:24:53and it felt so archaic even today I've been doing is like every day of my life.

1:25:00Entire adult life and and I've never thought this is really a problem

1:25:04and now all of a sudden everything else feels old and broken. Why did you have to sign.

1:25:09I think if you live remember hours like there's probably still a threshold

1:25:12but you can get out of a whole foods without spending one hundred dollars and I know the story link.

1:25:19I'm guessing it's just like other signature rules are there's probably some threshold that you know possibly depends on

1:25:24the store or the type of merchant account they have or something. But we will see.

1:25:29I don't expect ever to be able to rebel.

1:25:31That is theoretically an uprising of the whole thing comes out spend the hundred dollars

1:25:36and possible you know it's it's funny you bring up getting at Whole Foods for a hundred dollars a really quick story.

1:25:41Couple years ago I typically bring my lunch to work

1:25:44and I just eat at my desk in a couple years ago for whatever reason I had forgotten it

1:25:48or whatever so I decide you know I'll go to Whole Foods which is a store I very rarely go to

1:25:52and only go to their little salad bar that is that is way more than a salad bar

1:25:55and I get myself a little smorgasbord of you know randomness. So I.

1:26:00Like a little box and I put all the food I want in there thinking you know this is probably like five

1:26:04or ten bucks worth of food and I go to check out and it was a solid like eight hundred dollars.

1:26:09Too many hard boiled eggs they go by the way and I don't know I'm not I think I think what it was.

1:26:14This is my first thought as soon as I as soon as I was checked out was should have been a little lighter on the mac

1:26:20and cheese. That's tough stance. That's a rookie mistake that all of that was like.

1:26:24Like by miscellaneous hot

1:26:26and cold food mixes by weight things like the in the handful of those places I'm sure the from everywhere BUT LIKE THAT

1:26:32WAS LIKE of rookie mistake.

1:26:33Like if you if you get a job in the city

1:26:35and you're going to lodge everybody you go to a place that has one of those big hot bars in the middle like rookie

1:26:40mistake.

1:26:40Never go to those things because like all the stuff that looks good is so fricken heavy

1:26:45and you know you put like a little side of some pasta at like you know a little piece of chicken in there.

1:26:51Eleven dollars.

1:26:52But there's no way of getting out of there and getting a good deal

1:26:57and they have the viability for the kind of fruit where they will take for it

1:27:00and cut it into a few thousand dollars a square like I don't know how they're pricing the labor

1:27:07but like you can buy a whole pineapple her X. Amount and you can buy a Cup quarter final for twenty X.

1:27:13I don't know what happened.

1:27:16Well clearly we're in that we're in the wrong business we should be getting to the cutting for business right.

1:27:20That's obviously worth a large premium. Now John since you have a i Phone be it apples or whatever.

1:27:26Well done on my lawn hardware is gone

1:27:29and you mentioned before other people were telling me like well you think you're somebody signed if you look at our

1:27:33industry I also have no retina Macs either at home

1:27:35or at work you know so my loaner hardware that I used to have your family is all gone including the phone so I am back

1:27:41to my dumb phone I'm back to all my non random acts so I have not use Apple to answer questions.

1:27:47OK And what is the current plan with regard to getting

1:27:52and i Phone Is that still happening is happening soon happening later.

1:27:55Probably a lot of them are they reminded me today that about Apple discounts.

1:28:00They have those friends and family discounts and so I may be able to get one of those

1:28:03and if I do do that that will influence my hardware buying decisions and I gotta figure out how all those work

1:28:08and wild life.

1:28:09I'm very annoyed that I didn't even know these existed until today

1:28:11and I have known existed because various people have offered them to me in the past when I wasn't buying hardware

1:28:16and I just keep forgetting that they exist.

1:28:19So with that in mind let's really quickly I know we're running a little long.

1:28:22Marco did you order a Ryan Mack I think so it's a little vague with the business reps like

1:28:30when your order has actually been placed I have not yet been charged for it

1:28:34and I asked if they had an order not because they said it was it was already really preparing for shipment

1:28:39but so I don't know I have no tracking number.

1:28:43I have tried the look at my order number and I don't even know what e-mail address they put in for me

1:28:47and I tried a few and they couldn't find anything so I don't know it's always vague with business reps.

1:28:53Fair enough and John are you intending to buy a Mac.

1:28:58Not so waiting forever else they get theirs and see what they're like

1:29:02and you know all that jazz although I keep Now that I hear more and more about the i Pad Air too

1:29:07and lusting after more so I don't know I don't I don't know I got it after my view is done I have all these like things

1:29:14I'm going to buy it to reward myself for finishing again

1:29:17and you know use some of the money I get paid for their view to buy stuff like one of the things I want to get a P.S.

1:29:22For been like I don't really need to be as for there's no games out there that I want now I guess the wait on that

1:29:27maybe by the time by a slim version will be out.

1:29:29If I wait long enough they read in Iraq well you know way to market to help them are all the problems are blah blah

1:29:34blah i Phone I'm probably going to deal with all the hassles of trying to like you know get a Verizon family plan

1:29:42and doing all that Billings thought that I was going to be a nightmare.

1:29:46And then the arbutus Council make sense of this

1:29:48and so you know paralysis means I just end up sitting here not by anything

1:29:52but I will buy some things eventually probably before the end of the year. That's extremely useful.

1:29:58You can you know I don't want to die. So that's true.

1:30:03Hardware may or may not be showing up at both of our houses some point here.

1:30:08This gracious thanks was worth responses this week. Back please. Igloo and Linda dot com and we will see you next week.

1:30:18To be an accidental accidental

1:30:26and to use your time today sir said that he read so I went back to my smaller i Pod touch now and

1:31:21and I just use the big phone. And then I went back to a small one and a small one.

1:31:26The biggest things I feel are it so that skinny or not so much the height

1:31:30but the skinniness I just feel like I get used to the wider screen and just having like more of a web page visible

1:31:36and stuff even like reading tweets real like when what's the big deal it just feels wider.

1:31:41But the other thing is like even though I can reach so much more of the the i Pod Touch I don't know like I started to

1:31:48even have the short time I had the sex.

1:31:50I started to get like the hand motions to reach the really far parts of the screen like the hand shuffle I would have

1:31:55to do to reach the upper left corner. I started to get good at that and now I want to go back to the small.

1:32:00I want to start doing that motion and it's like you don't need to do that motion to get that corner

1:32:04and I like I don't know if you like.

1:32:07I've built up skills of playing a particular game and now the game has been taken away

1:32:11and the skills that I've built up are not useful anymore I'm kind of sad about it.

1:32:14It's a strange feeling that I did not I did not expect to have this feeling

1:32:18but it just it just feels like I was getting good at that big thing I mean

1:32:23and it's not there's not so much positive feeling I go this is so much more I like it so much better there's not even

1:32:28that much of that I do I do feel it a little bit less kind of less precarious but again I was using without a case.

1:32:34So it's weird I get my i Phone six eventually how I feel about a longer term.

1:32:40So out of curiosity what what is making you not buy yet if you've already decided that you're probably going to buy an

1:32:47i Phone six point six has come out.

1:32:49We know it's not going to change until roughly year from now when it will be a terrible hundred i Phone six.

1:32:55Why not get it now has a side of my going to go into an Apple store

1:32:59and do it how am I going to deal with phone number stuff.

1:33:02My how are we going to change our horizon plan if I just you know they would eventually like it just as anything

1:33:08involved with it other than me clicking a bunch of buttons

1:33:10and waiting for a package to show up at my house then it's an hour

1:33:15and stubbornness that Casey I'm betting he doesn't get i Phone six.

1:33:19I'm betting this takes until close enough to next fall that John has decided to wait because I wait until next hour.

1:33:27Here's here's the bet I will take that bet but if you lose I get to give you a playlist for pre-show music one night.

1:33:35You pick the wrong thing to bet their cases are going to win this bet these are things pick something much better than

1:33:39that. And look I'm willing to do that. Yeah exactly. It's him it's moot anyway he had a deal. Now what else going on.

1:33:48Do we have anything to say about this game or Gates stuff isn't really much to say other than it's terrible.

1:33:52Yeah

1:33:53but I have two links that I'm going to put into the show notes it's still it's still grinding on we talked about it.

1:34:00Before they get a lot of bad feedback about it because I think people who know about

1:34:04or care about this issue don't listen to our podcast which is nice.

1:34:09Honestly I'm kind of glad that the people who are already Jean

1:34:12and crazy on the gamer gate side of it like trying to like the abuse of these people

1:34:18and kind of let it listen to our show.

1:34:19So that's also a very good fans to have

1:34:23and then we got one e-mail from like that the well meaning people who like were affiliated with it

1:34:29but you know couldn't understand why I was trashing him

1:34:32and so on is over that I replied to one of them by e-mail who sent along the amount what I basically said is even

1:34:37though your intentions may be good and even though this is like weeks and weeks ago

1:34:41and even though you may not have done anything bad even though you agree with the stated aims of this movement the

1:34:48movement itself has been entirely co-opted and tainted by all the bad things that happen that is corrupted

1:34:55and by associating yourself with it you are bringing yourself down like it's basically you know I don't I.

1:35:02If I try to think of some group of this applies to what is going into other situations but anyway this group

1:35:07and this name has been irredeemably tainted it doesn't matter what they do going forward doesn't like the name the

1:35:13banner it's just too many bad things have happened under this banner

1:35:17and you can yell all you want about that's not what it's really about Babatz too late now so if you really believe in

1:35:23the good things that you think this thing you know the gamer gets out it was about you must This is so see it from them.

1:35:29Start a new hash tag and under a new banner with a new name and a new platform or whatever because this one is dead

1:35:35and if you really care about the things you wouldn't care about the name it's associated with because you would just go

1:35:39off and do something else and fight for whatever is you think you're fighting for.

1:35:42But gamer gate is you know is as lost is lost to decent people so anyway there's been tons of links of others I keep

1:35:49tweeting about it people complain that I tweet about it they don't want to hear about it yet.

1:35:52Tough luck if you don't you don't like it.

1:35:54Well somebody else ought to be able to talk now about how many people ought to tell him what he should be tweeting

1:35:59about or not.

1:36:00Like that's you know that's the way it is

1:36:01and that's it is it is the ultimate in luxury to be able to say I'm tired of this game or a good thing.

1:36:08Yeah I think must be nice not in any way whatever I don't want I don't get into it.

1:36:12So the two links I have these are actually from today and there's been a lot of good ones and I've been reading them

1:36:16and tweeting about these two good kind of book and not this thing is over

1:36:20but two good book ends as of where we are right now.

1:36:23One is from the respective of a journalist who is trying to write stories about gamer gate

1:36:27and was frustrated with the process of trying to just just do straight up this is this is the view from the outside

1:36:32This is the sort of disengaged dispassionate view of the thing worth like I don't know this is I'm not a gamer

1:36:39but I'm a reporter and I'm trying to report on this and here and here's the frustrating situation

1:36:43and you know here's why it's difficult to report on it.

1:36:47And so I'll put this edition with us from New York magazine who is the person who wrote this has been a before Jessie

1:36:56single I don't know if that's a man or a woman it shouldn't matter but when it comes to game or get it definitely does.

1:37:02So that's the view from the outside and the view from the inside is Felicia Day who you may

1:37:06or may not know as a actress and online media person doing all sorts of things.

1:37:13And it also known as a gamer hasn't said much about gamer gate but finally posted something about game gate

1:37:18and hers is a personal story of like how it is affecting her and why she was afraid to say anything about it

1:37:26and why she is ashamed for being afraid

1:37:28and just what this is done to the gaming community to total huge you know opposite ends of the spectrum talking about

1:37:36gamer get I think if you read both of those things you have a good idea what this is like you know what the whole thing

1:37:42is about and what it's like

1:37:43and by the way she posted this thing in less than an hour later the gamer gators attempted to docs are according to her

1:37:48but people are tweeting these days you know par for the course.

1:37:51Anyway I'll put those two links and if you're sick of reading about this stuff

1:37:56but you haven't read anything to us talk about this read these two things. Will sort of get you up to speed I think.

1:38:03Anyway it continues to grind on that people continue to do bad things.

1:38:07The rest of us continue to suffer under it there's all sorts of side shows associated with it.

1:38:12I really wish you would just go away. I have again urge everybody who is in any way associated with that.

1:38:20Disassociate yourself.

1:38:21Start something new that one that that one is poisoned by bad people who know no decent person agrees with to stop you

1:38:29that's the thing is I just can't wrap my mind around being upset about whether or not there are women in video games

1:38:38or Let's even assume being upset about supposedly impropriety in journalism.

1:38:43How is how does that lead to forcing Briana ruin her husband out of her own.

1:38:49Like how is that a reasonable course of action.

1:38:52Maybe it's because I'm sane

1:38:55and maybe I don't I don't I don't care that's just an excuse it's just an excuse to lash out at things you don't like

1:39:01doesn't matter what it is and I'm not going to use any analogies

1:39:03but there are plenty of them like you hate something something happens

1:39:06when you use an excuse to lash out of the thing you hate like no matter what happens it's an excuse to attack women.

1:39:11If women are tangentially involved in any way it's an excuse I mean the Felicia Day thing is like she wrote this

1:39:16heartfelt thing that is not really an attack on much of anything and really gets attacked

1:39:20and various men have written things and not gotten attacked in the same way.

1:39:24Various men have written things very recently that are much worse today get attacked now they don't.

1:39:28Why because these people have you know they have they they hate women like they can massage

1:39:34and it's like that's that's their thing and no matter what happens

1:39:37and it's an excuse to say woman get in your place no matter what happens it doesn't matter what it is like you know you

1:39:42gave my game a bad review or I don't like what you said. It's like and therefore that means he's attacked a woman.

1:39:49Everything is an excuse and one that is looking for right.

1:39:52And again this doesn't if you hear me saying this this doesn't apply to you because everyone says like you say all

1:39:56gamers hate women nope nope not you I'm telling you the gamers who do.

1:40:00Women don't associate with game again because it's poisoned like go someplace different to do what you want to do which

1:40:05should be fine you shouldn't care about this particular cause this particular decentralize thing this particular hash

1:40:10tag you know if you care about corruption in the gaming press which is a thing and then a thing for years and years.

1:40:16Fight that but has nothing to do a gamer get anymore and never really did.

1:40:20But John gamer gate is not about hating women it's about journalistic integrity. Right and that B.S.

1:40:26Is now finally filtering through to everybody now.

1:40:28Essentially everybody even reporters who had no idea what it was in come in and like I tried to report on this

1:40:32but everyone keeps telling me it's not about hatred of women

1:40:34and every time I look at the game again that's all I see

1:40:36and I say all those aren't the real ones like the No True Scotsman thing which they talk about in this thing.

1:40:40You know every time something bad happens some of that oh that's not real game again it's about it's a decentralized

1:40:45thing with no actual leadership with no actual platform

1:40:48and anything bad that happens is well that's not really what we're about.

1:40:51That's not how it works you know you pick you know political knowledge of the Democratic Party the Republican Party

1:40:57they have platforms they have leaders you can you know be expelled from them you're not allowed to say that you're a

1:41:03member you know I'm a representative of the Democratic Party.

1:41:06I am I am their duly pointed representative and I will tell you what their position is

1:41:10and then you say a bunch of hateful stock you will no longer have the doing of hundred rep the Democratic Party they

1:41:15have an actual platform they have actually to ship they have things like if they use we want here's what we stand for

1:41:19various games get completely decentralise terrible things happen and I was like last night were really about.

1:41:24Well that's all you got to do and if you go into the game or get boards all about attacking women

1:41:28and saying terrible things over there Bob that's not really what it's about.

1:41:31Well that's it doesn't matter what you say it's about only matters what you do and with no leadership

1:41:35and no platform and no formal organizing body there's no way for you to say these people are not part of the area.

1:41:41If they use the tag and they do bad things they're part of it.

1:41:45You can't kick them out because there is no centralization or you can kick them out.

1:41:48Everything they do just becomes what Gary it is about right and because

1:41:53and you know there's a difference between what you one person might want it to be about or might believe it's about.

1:42:00Out versus what it actually is about and what it actually is about is widespread abuse. Like that's all it is.

1:42:06It's widespread abuse of women like Briana said it's like I don't care about what your theory is

1:42:11or whatever the outcomes and this is the outcome the outcome is so plain as day.

1:42:16Like that you don't

1:42:17and you know it's just ridiculous with the worst part of the recent phenomenon has been sort of right wing political I

1:42:26don't know what you call the people over there get delist right wing political celebrities latching onto it as a way to

1:42:31further their agendas because they don't know or care anything again so they see this thing is going on here

1:42:35and they're like oh well you know we can use an angry mob to our advantage to further our agendas which had nothing to

1:42:40do with video games and certainly nothing to do with ethics and video games present.

1:42:44It's all ridiculous side show that the worst thing about it is like it shows that sort of the immune system of decent

1:42:51people and sort of like our way of handling like this.

1:42:54This movement should not be giving us the trouble that it is right.

1:42:58Like where the gamer get is well organized sort of about stuff in campaigns to tell a sponsor not to support someone

1:43:05inside said something negative about game again

1:43:07and sponsors will be like oh we're getting all these e-mails who better stop doing this

1:43:11and in the bailout because they don't know a game or get As and I think about this

1:43:14and then we're like after the fact saying no what are you doing it like you've been you've been fooled by a bunch of

1:43:19trolls there too.

1:43:20Yes they did send you a lot of angry letters

1:43:22but they don't represent anybody suffer terrible people like don't make financial decisions based on you know a human

1:43:29driven letter writing campaign people running stats on like the tweets that are going up about this.

1:43:34Like they said I forget what the percentage is over some huge percentage of tweets of the game

1:43:38or get hashtags were made by only one hundred Twitter accounts most of which were created in the last two months.

1:43:44It's entirely a sock puppet type you know like they are able to further their nefarious

1:43:50and through means that are you know completely transparent

1:43:53and yet are able to fool large corporations into believing that they represent an important constituency.

1:43:58And then all of us are out here like that.

1:44:00I believe this is even happening like we haven't we don't have a good way to deal with organized extremely negative

1:44:07terrible anonymous trolling like

1:44:10and hopefully this whole terrible experience will sort of teach the civilized world essentially how to manage

1:44:17situations like this better like make us all more savvy give us better tools give us better organizing sort of

1:44:22antibodies against this kind of disease.

1:44:26I don't know I mean maybe it'll take two or three more runs at this

1:44:29but you know it's terrible I wish it would get better but who knows.

1:44:35I disagree with one small thing that you said you said the game again doesn't have a platform

1:44:38and I don't think that's true their platform is hate. They just hate things they hate women they hate.

1:44:44Suppose a journalist they hate things. Oh no it's just women men journalists and be doing OK.

1:44:50Fair point that you say when and that's that's the platform right.

1:44:54I just I don't understand how any sane and intelligent human being can not see through this

1:45:03and see that this is wrong like these people who are who are Doc seeing these women

1:45:07and making these threats against these women like I just it does not compute how that is acceptable behavior.

1:45:14How was that OK what if these women really done to affect your world

1:45:18and even if they have how is that an OK reaction like that just I don't understand how any of this makes sense.

1:45:26Lack of empathy ends justify the means all sorts of things that like you know

1:45:30and really as I said in the original show about this that these people you know don't understand what they're actually

1:45:36angry about

1:45:37and so many people are insulted by that because they always think I'm talking about them you know what you're angry

1:45:41about the not talking about you don't know anyway.

1:45:44It's kind of a tautology there

1:45:45but like these are people who are in pain people who act this way are not like happy well adjusted people with awesome

1:45:52family lives and they have a filling jobs

1:45:54and you know I mean that's they're in pain currently they're in pain from the past or whatever and.

1:46:00If focus that you know why.

1:46:02Why am I in pain what's wrong with my life

1:46:04and you know they're placing a lot of the blame on that on perceived enemies whatever they may be

1:46:09and in this case it's women and progressives and whatever it is they're you know

1:46:13but like the people who do this like you like I can understand if you like how how can people believe that they're the

1:46:18bad guys in their own stories

1:46:19and sometimes they don't sometimes they don't believe they're the bad guys in their own stories

1:46:23but sometimes they do believe they do believe in their heart of hearts of the bad guys in their own stories

1:46:27and they're doing it because they're in pain for unrelated reasons

1:46:30and they feel like they they deserve to be the bad guy or they should be like it's not you know.

1:46:38I have I have empathy for the people who are on that side of the fence because really like in my experience people who

1:46:43do terrible things unless they're actually clinically insane which most people are not.

1:46:48It's because they're in pain right.

1:46:49It doesn't make it any better and we need to find ways to deal with this and help ourselves

1:46:55and secondarily help them you know.

1:46:57But it's you can't is easy to demonize people who do terrible things but really like if you think about it like

1:47:03when you're trying to get into their head space imagine your life was not like it was imagine life was just terrible in

1:47:10all possible ways and you had an amazingly bad childhood or you're super angry about something

1:47:15or you have you know some kind of undiagnosed you know unmedicated emotional imbalance

1:47:21and you have not been able to deal with like all of that dissatisfaction natured anger has to go somewhere

1:47:27and the blending in weird places sometimes turns into word on themselves sometimes outward sometimes both.

1:47:32So I think I've been really understand what it is that's making this happen it's just that like as a society one job is

1:47:40figuring out why that's happening in like you know we should prevent these outcomes of making people have better

1:47:44happier lives and not end up in these terrible situations and and you know

1:47:47but the other aspect is how do we protect our selves as a society against internal to do essentially say you know as

1:47:54you'll find out when your child arrives you know this is not OK This is not OK behavior too.

1:48:00You know enforce limits on you know it's so difficult.

1:48:02Line one is OK behavior online in real life this is not OK we don't accept this

1:48:06and that's the worst thing is like part of the whole you know what's happening in games these days that sort of

1:48:13progress games are making in doing and saying more interesting things.

1:48:17If the people who are on that side of the fence doing bad things to the women had grown up in a world that sort of post

1:48:24you know like a feminist revolution of gaming you know like if if these people had grown up in a world where women were

1:48:31not as objectified as they are in popular culture now there would be less likely to direct all of their hatred

1:48:36and bad feelings towards women.

1:48:38You know I mean like if they could see women as human beings instead of people they would actually be happier people

1:48:43like they're fighting against something that could have saved them from doing the things that they are today.

1:48:47You know I mean like is all this contributes to like why am I miserable and where do I direct that energy.

1:48:55The studio we're up in the same thing that's making me say unintentionally you know racist

1:49:00or sexist things because that's just how I grew up that that influences all of us

1:49:04and like to be people working for change in the games

1:49:06and everyone else are trying to make a world where people are less steeped in these bad things growing up to them

1:49:11and they come to adulthood hopefully they won't hold on to these you know antiquated

1:49:16and harmful notions about other people.

1:49:19You know I just it seems like the same kind of playbook that all oppressed groups have gone through you know I'm coming

1:49:27from very much a position of luxury because I don't really know what that's like I mean my my dad's family is Jewish

1:49:35but I never really practiced growing up so I've never personally been exposed to any sort of anti-Semitic behavior.

1:49:43But it seems like from outsiders from a luxury point of view it seems like the same playbook that you know let's hate

1:49:51Jews in oh let's hate black people and it's and now it's oh it's hate women and when does that ever work out.

1:49:58When does that ever. End up OK it's working out well for hating women because that is evergreen.

1:50:04Women have been subjugated for millennia and it will continue to be the case like that you know.

1:50:12Progress has been made and all these fronts.

1:50:14But like they seem to go in cycles

1:50:17and women is the one the most people I have to make that I did not think about as much it was and I'm growing up

1:50:21and again the system of education and environment

1:50:23and who you are I'm growing up you know like you Casey you just the white male you know the same as all of my peers not

1:50:31different in any particular way.

1:50:32You learn about in school you learn about Martin Luther King you know you learn about slavery you learn about the

1:50:38Native Americans you were also just things and you do women's suffrage in voting

1:50:42and you're like oh that's a silly one point women couldn't vote that's obviously ridiculous they can vote as well again

1:50:47but you don't go that far like in my education at least we talked about the basic human rights of like moving

1:50:53or the lawn and own land and vote and stuff like that and we talked about slavery and civil rights

1:50:57and stuff like that and then it's like and we come to the present day and everybody's equal

1:51:01and it's like no not exactly

1:51:03and we least in my education in my pre-college education there was a lot of time spent on talking about feminism

1:51:10or the objectification of women

1:51:12or whatever this is sort of like the natural undertones of everything of everything you live in you like is to accept

1:51:18it like you could say I am you know I understand the racism is terrible and still exists

1:51:23but women you know white women are treated perfectly fairly on our right and women must not be issued.

1:51:28She was like you know minorities and that's where all the problems

1:51:33but you know well women are everything's fine there it's like not like it's just this becomes the baseline that you

1:51:38don't even notice that this it doesn't seem like that's the whole thing with the game or gay people.

1:51:45Doesn't even seem like women are oppressed was like

1:51:47when you talk with us just the way things are that's not oppression.

1:51:49Everyone's in their designated role the woman stays home and cooks the man goes to work

1:51:53and like it that's just the natural order of things that's not oppression what are you talking about

1:51:57and it just it seems so far as like.

1:52:00Slavery That's oppression obviously right

1:52:02but you know it's I have to admit it took me a lot of much longer time to have a clear view on

1:52:10and pervasive sexism in the world then than it did for any of these other things

1:52:15and as I said the last time we talked about this like if you just expose yourself to these things don't don't

1:52:21necessarily engage with them don't argue with them like just expose yourself to women's explaining what it's like to be

1:52:27a woman a woman in the world and don't like

1:52:30and just just take it in like just accept it listen to it don't take offense at it because you're not the one doing

1:52:36these things for them right.

1:52:37You know maybe think about things you might have been the other people there like this maybe you can decide whether you

1:52:40think it's good or bad

1:52:41but if you listen enough the preponderance of stories about this happening will slowly make the gears start turning

1:52:49your head and realize the ridiculous inequalities that existed that you didn't see before

1:52:54and I don't have any hope of that happening for people who are involved in game or get maybe

1:52:59when they're older they're young. I came in again.

1:53:02It took me until my thirty's just to start to even think about these things in a serious way.

1:53:06And if you're an eighteen year old in a chat room trying to figure out how you're going to send anonymous death threats

1:53:12to women you go a long road ahead of you certainly do.

1:53:17I just it just it's so terrible and I don't know I just it's not fair. It just plain isn't fair.

1:53:27I think you know John you said something earlier much earlier now

1:53:30but he says the earlier that you know we as you know as as technology

1:53:36or as as a society with the modern era net we don't really have good ways to deal with you know very strong anonymous

1:53:45negative feedback among the many other things that we need to work on and as a society that are more long term

1:53:52and difficult to attack this might be something we can do sooner or early start thinking about you know like.

1:54:00Designing our systems in designing social networks in designing technology and in designing the tools

1:54:06and the networks

1:54:06and the media that we as in a modern technically connected people use we need to consider like you know what are the

1:54:16possible abuses here.

1:54:18You know how much how much damage how much abuse can a very small group of determined vigils dish out with this thing

1:54:25that we're building.

1:54:26And is there a way that we can design it in such a way that both they can abuse fewer people or in fewer ways

1:54:34and that somehow we can reduce their incentives to abuse.

1:54:38So and this is you know in many ways like when I've designed similar systems for Tumblr

1:54:43or for Instapaper for overcast I've always been concerned about spam.

1:54:46And so like one of the one of the day things like an overcast you can recommend to your Twitter followers.

1:54:53There is nowhere in the entire app

1:54:55and there probably never will be anywhere in the entire app where you can see a most recommended global list.

1:55:02And the reason for this is very deliberate it's because I didn't want anybody to to be able to spam to create a whole

1:55:08bunch of accounts to all recommend certain things to boost them to the top of that list like the old big front page

1:55:13problem. I didn't want to have to deal with that.

1:55:16And you know same thing with Instapaper there was never like it shaver had its recommended global stories

1:55:20but those were human picked.

1:55:22So there you know there's never like I intentionally try to avoid creating things that can be reasonably spammed

1:55:31or I voiced spam by by avoiding creating incentives to spam like there's no reason to spam with a bunch overcast a

1:55:40counter-argument episode because only people who follow you want to see them and you know that

1:55:44and it's attached to your name like that was going to solve itself right.

1:55:49In designing systems you know now in the future I think we should in addition to considering things like spam

1:55:56incentives we need to consider abuse incentives and you know how much.

1:56:00Tension can can one person get with relatively little validation from others.

1:56:05How much how much can an ominous

1:56:07and honest comments be heard you know like right now on Twitter anybody can reply anybody else and they will

1:56:15and it will show up in their replies timeline and Twitter obviously Twitter is a lot of people are pointing out

1:56:21and have been pointing out why Twitter's policies on on dealing with abuse complaints.

1:56:27I don't know the details of them but they sound pretty terrible.

1:56:29I don't you know that might not be solvable I don't know.

1:56:32It sounds like it's it's always a problem like saying oh well Twitter should you know spend his accounts

1:56:37and then it becomes a question of well you know what if somebody files a false report against you

1:56:41and so it's these are all tough problems.

1:56:44I think Twitter can do better

1:56:45but I don't think they can magically solve the problem like that like I don't like they can do a lot with just been

1:56:51looking more at like the problems of reporting on Twitter

1:56:53and mostly has to do with how how Twitter approaches the probs like if they approach their form for reporting people

1:57:02more like a sort of a crisis center would approach supporting someone who is having some kind of crisis like domestic

1:57:09abuse

1:57:09or something like that like has a different approach like you assumes the person is in crisis you don't you know what

1:57:14you can't demand of the person like the one of the big things like Andrew all your information is form including your

1:57:19real complete first and last name and by the way we make sense information of the person you're reporting.

1:57:24Like I know what they're kind of getting at in that.

1:57:27But the way it's worded doesn't isn't made for a mindset for a person who's coming in like in crisis

1:57:33and saying you know or

1:57:34or sorry we rejected your report because you're not the person who is you know who is being attacked.

1:57:39Like if you send someone a link to to bees or tweet

1:57:41but if you're not the target of it like they just reject it out of hand like it's just not it's just not designed the

1:57:46way it should be for something that people go to when they're in crisis or when

1:57:49when someone they care about is in crisis.

1:57:51It should be totally designed to put their personalities to begin strong guarantees that the things they would

1:57:56reasonably fear for example that you reporting someone the.

1:58:00A new report would know who you are and would have more information about you because you reported it.

1:58:05Like you can't have a form that even hinted that well look for a solution.

1:58:08Obviously never actually do that and I don't think they would actually do that

1:58:11but the form makes it seem like they would and so if you're in a crisis situation you land on that form.

1:58:15You hate Twitter was like What the hell I have a problem here

1:58:18or if they bounce back your thing with automatic responses.

1:58:22Sorry your report cannot be a process because you're not the target of the abuse.

1:58:26Yeah that's pretty bad again someone just posted it.

1:58:28Someone just posted a death threat with someone's full name and address on it and I read

1:58:31and you get a robo response like there are tons of things where you can do the niggaz better

1:58:35but you're right that at the root of it it's like anonymity is important for large classes of people on the Internet

1:58:41and you can't just say oh every can't be anonymous you need to use your you know full name

1:58:44and Social Security number and everything to have a strong correlated Id like anonymity needs to be there

1:58:50but once you have an immunity and people keep making new accounts

1:58:53and like it's not one hundred percent solvable that Twitter could be doing a whole lot better job right

1:58:58but I think though ultimately this is a design flaw of Twitter and systems like it like this in the way like this

1:59:05when when I have a whole wire creditor I quoted Howard Stern

1:59:09and a blog post saying Oh Howard Stern he used Twitter here and there

1:59:13but he said on this show few months ago he was he was you know because he always complains about how everyone on

1:59:19Twitter is basically a huge you know bad person to everyone else.

1:59:23And and he said you know why do we give these people so much access to us.

1:59:28Like why why do you let any random person yell at you ten seconds after you post and why do you go and read it

1:59:35and why Can anybody in the world have to have your attention so easily that I think the question of the amount of

1:59:44access we

1:59:46and systems like Twitter allow other people to have to us that is something that I think we've assumed in designing

1:59:56social and Internet communication systems for the last you know decade or so.

2:00:00We've we've all assumed that had to be this way that of course it's the power of the Internet anybody can talk to

2:00:04anybody else.

2:00:05But maybe that's a bad assumption maybe that is a fundamental design flaw and may be you know future social networks

2:00:13and future future directions of current social networks maybe maybe future networks

2:00:17and Future Communications is it that need to be more limited maybe I shouldn't be able to reply Howard Stern whenever I

2:00:24want to and have him see it.

2:00:26Don't you think that's part of the beauty of Twitter like well it's good that is that advantage like you know I think

2:00:32that's what we want to try to be like that direct connection to people well it was there

2:00:36and had a connection like part of the reason that works at all in Twitter is because people are constrained.

2:00:40They can't send five hundred paragraph screeds to Howard Stern they just have to send one liner insults like the

2:00:46problem is

2:00:46when it's not you know because the block function does exist like a system like that without a block function at all

2:00:52would be terrible the block function is not perfect but does exist

2:00:55but the problem of the block functions is totally defeated by the ability just keep creating new accounts.

2:00:59Right so if you are super famous and you get that abuse you like I will not probably manage that with blocks

2:01:04or actually you block all the most horrible people in your fine no you never find they just keep creating new account

2:01:08because the crazy people right

2:01:10and that that is like the anonymity you couldn't you create a new account of if an account was strongly tied to your ID

2:01:17but anonymity I think is an important feature of Twitter

2:01:20and other Internet services that you can't say like Google tried to do. Oh no anonymity real names only.

2:01:25Like that's that's not a tenable solution either so it is a very difficult problem but

2:01:30when I was talking of the tools we need to deal with this I was talking more at the macro level than the micro the

2:01:35micro level you can just get off Twitter like either permanently or for a certain period of time

2:01:39but at the macro level it's like when sponsors are pulling ads from Web sites financially impacting that entire site

2:01:46and the jobs of various people because of a coordinated fake letter writing campaign of people like pretending to be

2:01:51concerned about some B.S.

2:01:52Issue and in reality this trying to ruin the lives of women and journalists who happen to write for the site.

2:01:57When that happens it shows that our are.

2:02:00Corporations in organizations are not Internet savvy enough to know where essentially being trolled into stupid

2:02:04behavior that has real consequences for real people here are politicians

2:02:08but our own people we assume like you know this like Intel and Adobe recent comers again colon and O.B.

2:02:14Would be a little more tech savvy than politicians let's say you know

2:02:18and then finally like obviously anonymous death threats simply untraceable with no you know I mean that it goes with

2:02:24the anonymity you don't want you want and in a mini

2:02:27when you're trying to talk about how your husband is abusing your in you're afraid for your life

2:02:31but you would like the person who threatened your life to not have anonymity so we kind of can't have it both ways

2:02:35there I don't know what the solution is that

2:02:37but you know I guess a step would be law enforcement taking these reports seriously being able to do anything at this

2:02:43point. I get all these things get reported to authorities.

2:02:46It's like it's like reporting a stolen bicycle to the police.

2:02:48Basically I think stolen bicycle probably has higher priorities of place than on a messenger death threats thought

2:02:54bicycle. You're disappointed about it and might have been expensive but it's not a big deal.

2:02:59But seriously considered death threats associated plus your real address being sent out to people like you don't even

2:03:05care if the person who sent that death threat meant that well you care that other people who might be seriously

2:03:10unbalanced now have your address and now hate you because they've been riled up by this group or whatever

2:03:15and yet what the heck can the police do. They're not tech savvy.

2:03:17They can't get IP addresses for these people if they could could they track it down to you know it says I don't know

2:03:23what the solution to that is but I can tell you that I would imagine law enforcement maybe would put on a good face

2:03:28but what the hell are they going to do it's just they're not going to give you a personal bodyguard for the rest of

2:03:33your life

2:03:34and if you if you're rich you can have your if you can afford to have a personal bodyguard you're not a celebrity with

2:03:39an entourage and a compound in a fortress your person living in a house

2:03:43and are in a partner now you're scared for your life

2:03:45and the police tell you realistically is nothing they can do about it so I don't know what we can do about that

2:03:50but we're not doing a good job right now and this is a a new kind of threat.

2:03:54You know I mean it's kind of like

2:03:55and people you know shrug it off as many people pointed out like that that craziness I just got.

2:04:00When shot at that school where was that I forget where that was I don't know if it was a while ago

2:04:04but anyway this guy had had a series of you know anti woman screeds that is written on the Internet You Tube

2:04:10and then he went just shot a bunch of women and self right.

2:04:13It's not as if we're saying all this is never going to happen like it has happened in the past this is a plausible

2:04:17threat that some crazy person who hates women and put all his hatred for

2:04:22and all his pain in life into that can get a gun and go shoot people up so

2:04:26when you make a threat like that it's like ha ha funny troll that would never happen.

2:04:29It has already happened it's so plausible

2:04:31and yet we have no tools to deal with it all we can do is like well we'll have to wait till someone shows up with a gun

2:04:37and maybe we can do something about it like to it now.

2:04:40And one that's that's why I think like you know you're right that there's always going to be like this like a baseline

2:04:46number of disturbed people in the world that you know we just can't do anything about that like we have like that

2:04:53they're always going to be there

2:04:54and we can you know we can attempt to do our best to produce fewer crazy disturbed people in the world that's the best

2:05:01we can really do and we can try to find them and treat them or imprison them or whatever like

2:05:06but that's a that's a really hard problem to ever read a case like we're going to eradicate all bad people

2:05:11and well that's you know that's not real

2:05:14but I do think there is there's a lot to be said for removing the incentives here so you know right now if if Twitter

2:05:22removes the ability for crazy people to coordinate their efforts and stalk people and creep people out

2:05:28and docks them in everything those people have different places they can go they can all go to private message boards

2:05:34they can go to I mean that's that's where they are they're coordinating on this private message board

2:05:37and I think the rest think they're not the message boards on in private they're still one of the brightest

2:05:42but like public message boards where they're talking about how they're going to do these things that if they had real

2:05:48names

2:05:48and addresses of these posts you can arrest them all now for the things they're all doing talk about are already illegal

2:05:54just that well you have no idea where they are and it's like you know that's that's never going to be solved like.

2:06:00Like that problem the way the way the Internet works.

2:06:03Like that's anonymous coordination of things is always going to be possible it's always going to be interesting to keep

2:06:08getting easier as tools get better you know that we're never going to solve that problem.

2:06:12What we can solve

2:06:14or what we can what we can help we can reduce is the access people have to anybody they want any time they want

2:06:21and that's what I'm saying like I think we need to really rethink the social systems we've built

2:06:25and say like is this really a good idea to allow this kind of totally like open you know in a way you know democratic

2:06:34but what would your solution be like you make it like Live Journal we only have to invite people to see your trip you

2:06:39can already protect your Twitter feed but that's just not how it works like the openness of it.

2:06:43Anybody can follow you and that anybody can contribute.

2:06:46Like when it's working well and

2:06:47when people are all nice to each other that is the beauty of Twitter that's the beauty of you know life

2:06:51and relationships with people so I don't see how you can fix that without you know sort of going insular

2:06:57and making everybody sort of in their own little cocoons like that would take away what's good about Twitter like

2:07:03and I don't like

2:07:04when I think about how to try to try to fix this I think for the people who are doing all these bad things.

2:07:12The people of those those people in that group who live in the first world who otherwise have more

2:07:17or less comfortable lives and you know you don't know where the country's people

2:07:21and they could have you they could be in war torn countries that we're currently bombing

2:07:25and the whole family is dead and they're starving to death and they're on the Internet cafe somewhere

2:07:30and over like so many more problems are going to if your baseline comfort is taken care of

2:07:35and you sort of like have food you have shelter

2:07:37but you're still super angry at the world which is probably a large portion of this thing.

2:07:41It's like if we could have helped those people have their lives turn out differently

2:07:47and have the things that influence them be different they would not be doing this now.

2:07:51Like the long term plan of like we have to change society so that people are not ready is in an environment where they

2:07:57see women as less than human and. I wrecked all their anger at them when things don't go the way they want.

2:08:03You know what I mean.

2:08:04Like that's the long term solutions like how to do I think I have a more pessimistic view of like the Twitter type

2:08:10stuff.

2:08:11You can't like you said you can't stop them from making an honest Apple you're never going to you can't get rid of

2:08:15anonymity.

2:08:17I don't think the solution is to not give people public assets to like to retreat to your compound to keep yourself in

2:08:24a circle people

2:08:24or you we just need to we need to make a a society in a world that produces fewer of these people who are for this

2:08:33angry about these things you know.

2:08:35Yeah and I think Marco your point about when you're designing overcast

2:08:42when you're designing all the other things you've designed in the past

2:08:46and not encouraging that kind of nefarious behavior.

2:08:50A lot of times I ask myself or sometimes others

2:08:53and I think a lot of good intentioned individuals ask you know what can I really do.

2:08:59Well something that may seem a silly but really obviously isn't silly is you doing the right thing

2:09:04and trying your best to not encourage nefarious behavior and overcast. That's something that can be done.

2:09:11That's what you would the royal you can do is make those decisions and make them intelligently

2:09:18and try to do the right thing even if it's a harder thing to do the right thing to prevent this kind of B.S. Behavior.

2:09:25You know I mean I don't well I don't know what else to do.

2:09:27You know I think I really do think that there is a lot that we can still is a lot of low hanging fruit with the design

2:09:34of the systems that we can do to to improve conditions and yet we're not going to reduce problems totally

2:09:39but we can we can certainly start to address them and start to reduce their impact

2:09:44and start to reduce the incidents the incentive to be problematic on these systems like if Twitter just had some simple

2:09:49filters you could set like I am I would love like I would love for you know because I you know whenever I say anything

2:09:55remotely controversial I like which tech center I prefer which is.

2:10:00More dangerous to discuss than the Palestinian situation.

2:10:03Whenever I say anything about text editors I would prefer to have some kind of setting on Twitter where I could say

2:10:09like Don't show me any.

2:10:11Don't even show my timeline any responses from people who may be I don't follow

2:10:17or are not like within two degrees of following or something like that like because sometimes gets really outta hand

2:10:22and I can handle it and I can even imagine like if you have if you have a bigger audience or

2:10:28and especially like if you're a woman with a big audience

2:10:30and you say anything remotely controversial like I can even imagine what like there are there are many people not least

2:10:38of which liberties but there are many people out there who would leave a control like that on all the time.

2:10:44Yeah I think that's actually an actionable thing that we talk about how you can have a protected account

2:10:48or is open to the public and I think that the openness is a strength of Twitter

2:10:52but if there was a range between there where that you could say like Margaret said where this is kind of techie

2:10:59but like set up a rules that say don't show me replies from someone who doesn't follow me Westy

2:11:05or than fifty followers his account was created in the last month like BASIC like Sock Puppet Sock Puppet detection

2:11:11or or a Degrees of Separation limit

2:11:14or temporary degrees of separation that is you know you just said something controversial like those are controlled you

2:11:19can give individuals that is not turning Twitter into like a live journal

2:11:23or like some private type thing Twitter is still open but give people control

2:11:27and like some of these people have been doing outside the system of like in their community block lists where they will

2:11:32sort of pull together their blocks because everyone is blocking the same server

2:11:36and then another sockpuppet made us recycle the account and everything like that

2:11:39but just to have a communal blacklist that can be shared among people so that if you know of a decent people all band

2:11:46together chances are good that one of the decent people on the site was already blocked a stroll so you'll never see

2:11:51his tweeting you didn't have to see it in blogger like why are we all individually blocking the same stupid account as

2:11:55they wander through saying terrible things to be able to write. If one person to block it we could all benefit.

2:12:00Now there are downside to communal blog post as well but this is a type of feature this Twitter supported

2:12:04and for was more serious about those type of controls.

2:12:08You could make a communal block list there could be a master block list of sock puppets they could like it becomes a

2:12:13big thing it becomes a minister has to be part of Twitter stuff anyway like dealing with abuse in the system becomes a

2:12:18major part of why anyone who runs any big community site knows suddenly you find out your real job is just spending all

2:12:23your time moderating and dealing with trolls and dealing with sock puppets and dealing with hacks

2:12:27and stuff like that and that's probably not avoidable

2:12:30but you know the low hanging fruit where you could start by making their reporting system for abuse be a lot friendlier

2:12:38to the people who are reporting a lot clearer a lot nicer framed in terms of someone who is in crisis not in terms of

2:12:43here's a dry clinical form that protects us as a corporation

2:12:46and doesn't really make any acknowledgement of what you might be going through return phone from a Holgate in the chat

2:12:53room. Apparently Twitter verified accounts which just make me angry.

2:12:58Twitter verified accounts already have features I've been talking about.

2:13:02Yeah I know that I mentioned talk about on Twitter people why isn't verified something anybody can get it.

2:13:08If anybody I like if you liked pay for like whatever it cost Twitter

2:13:12and terms like they do you make a profit on whatever it costs them in terms of manpower

2:13:17and time like if there is some you know it's not an automatic system like someone has to verify your ID you plan to

2:13:21make a phone call that you had sent some of the facts because one hundred ninety one again like whatever you have that

2:13:27these people do get verified checkmark

2:13:28but it's not on demand so a lot of these people who are getting all this abuse the trolls make fake accounts

2:13:34and pretend to be them

2:13:35and then the people the angry people get really angry all over again because they believe a fake tweet really can't

2:13:39happen to be understood.

2:13:41They kick out with their mate or say something terrible and she got attacked in fifty different directions. Right.

2:13:46Why does she not have a verified checkmark.

2:13:48Because she's not important because she can't control it she should be able to call her on the phone

2:13:51and say here's one hundred bucks verify my Democrat I'll send you like ids

2:13:55and stuff like that that is an example of another piece of low hanging fruit. Anybody should be able to get.

2:14:00If they are willing to pay to take the time and money.

2:14:02I mean if you want to because you're like oh that that cuts out people four hundred dollars

2:14:05or whatever like there's two ways Twitter can just be more proactive realizing what this person is under onslaught

2:14:10given the stupid verified checkmark don't charge them for it but they're not they're dropping the ball on that

2:14:15and there's no there's no way you can request verification

2:14:18and actually get it because you know you can say I've been impersonated I've been attacked look at all these people

2:14:22that I'm blocking look at my daily activity can I get a verified check mark and you get nothing from Twitter.

2:14:26So it is insane to those people don't have verified check marks and the reporting system is stupid and broken

2:14:32and this is before we get to the things that you were talking about of like having those type of controls about seeing

2:14:36replies and having sock puppet the text

2:14:38and all the type of things anybody who is like you know does anything with big data like I feel like it's so easy for

2:14:45humans to detect sock puppets and trolls. I think if you just get a really good job too.

2:14:50Yeah I want one more item before every phone of this topic.

2:14:53Someone some of the chat room is complaining like you know it isn't OK to dislike any of us our T.V.

2:14:58and Who's in the presence talked about feminism shoes and sexism in games you know. Can I can I dislike or whatever.

2:15:05Fine right and I was like I just happen to believe that she's a snake oil salesman who is lying to us

2:15:10and lot of law so I'm putting one more link in the show.

2:15:13Here it is this is not a conspiracy theory it's ongoing video series that I think is only about two parts so far.

2:15:20It's by who was it by you guys

2:15:22and I was the guy guided everything's Remax Kirby FERGUSON Yeah so I think this is like a funding thing.

2:15:29I paid for it where we had to pay were needed to kick start

2:15:31or whatever so I'm seeing the new things that they release I'm assuming you'll be able to see all of them eventually

2:15:36once this is all over. But anyway consider funding at the really good I think you can see the first part for free.

2:15:43The reason I put this in there is there is a very long long long history of this is something as an engineering major I

2:15:50kind of I'm saying this

2:15:51but like if I can make everyone in the entire world take one sort of major in a college education I would make

2:15:56everybody learn about history because everything you know it's a cliche to say it.

2:16:00If you know anything about history how can you not see the same things happening as people

2:16:04but haven't changed that much invest in thousand years or so anyway.

2:16:07Conspiracy theories have a long

2:16:08and illustrious history there readily explainable obvious reasons why people love the people love conspiracy theories

2:16:15people fall into very they believe them with every fiber of their being and it is just part of the human condition

2:16:22and yet

2:16:22when people are in the midst of a conspiracy theory like that there is a giant cabal of feminists who are controlling

2:16:28the gaming industry and it's our T.V. and Is stealing money from people and getting rich and selling snake oil.

2:16:34These crazy conspiracy theories which everyone else is crazy seem perfectly rational to a lot of people so I feel like

2:16:39rather than attacking that issue head on.

2:16:41If you just learn about the history of conspiracy theories and how they work with the human mind

2:16:44and society you will eventually I have to feel at the end of all that perhaps reexamine what you believe about whatever

2:16:53conspiracy theory you happen to believe

2:16:54and so on it's really entertaining video series even if doesn't change your mind about any of this to watch it

2:16:59and find it because it's good.

2:17:01It's sick to me that we start to talk about this

2:17:04but I'm glad we have I tried it like I could talk about it every week

2:17:07and I tweet about it all the time to us just like now we have to do something

2:17:14and talking about it is one of those things I don't know I'm not complaining.

2:17:17The tech show I know people will complain but like we saved it for the after show.

2:17:21Honestly this could have been a quote official topic we just didn't get to it until we have to

2:17:27but I mean it is an important story in our industry like this is not this is just as valid of a topic as what we think

2:17:33of the new i Macin all that crap and this is more important than everything that we had as real topics tonight.

2:17:40There's not this is not a how to make the world a better place podcast but where in the world to.