The Accidental Tech Podcast

90: Speculative Abandonware


  So has it gone so far. [TS]

  Bergeron Well the the prediction that you two had for night one at home would you like to guess if it went as you [TS]

  expected or not at all as expected every hurdle analog right here [TS]

  and here to tell the world tell the world today that didn't come out yet that's out now. I wasn't alive. [TS]

  Oh well that doesn't count you're cheating. [TS]

  Yeah yeah absolutely did OK So Marco did it go as you expected which is to say it went not swimmingly [TS]

  or did Declan surprise everyone and it went pretty much flawlessly. [TS]

  First time home from the hospital and I'm sayin it did not go flawlessly. It was a disaster. [TS]

  Yeah it's simply unrealistic to expect otherwise I mean it's not really his fault that you know zero year olds are [TS]

  pretty rough goes perfectly. [TS]

  You'd be worried that there's something wrong with the baby [TS]

  and we bring them back to it's true get it inspected if you like this not failing to thrive is just easily be all the [TS]

  time. Yeah. [TS]

  Now it's actually funny you say that because you did mention the pediatrician Monday that he was really sleepy [TS]

  and you know we were let him go something like four ish hours overnight because he really didn't wake up to feed [TS]

  and the pediatrician was like oh no not yet. [TS]

  That ain't your thing yet you gotta wake that baby up and so that's what we've been doing [TS]

  and it's been I mean all in all it's actually he's been really good the first night was a disaster because we hadn't [TS]

  yet come to the conclusion that divide and conquer is the answer. [TS]

  And so you know here it is I'm trying to be supportive of Erin who is who is the only one who can actually feed Declan [TS]

  and I'm waking up and just kind of staring at her while she's feeding him not then there's no point me being up [TS]

  but I want to be supportive [TS]

  and it took us until basically the end of that night where I think I said to her Listen he's pissed off you haven't [TS]

  slept in forever. You're the one who actually need sleep right now. [TS]

  You go to bed I'll just entertain him for a couple hours and that's when kind of we had the epiphany that divide [TS]

  and conquer is really the way to do it. [TS]

  The purpose to use staying over the same time in that's like to offer moral support if your wife is to have a person [TS]

  who would resent you if you were sleeping peacefully any other room. [TS]

  But eventually yes you will both get over that because you'll realize either one of us everyone's asleep we have to get [TS]

  over the notion that all suffering must be shared. [TS]

  Which one of us said Adam Samberg was that me or John I did and then you confirmed. [TS]

  We're trying to remember the name of some movie I'm like oh that's the thing with Adam Samberg and you said Yep [TS]

  but I don't know I don't know why I let that slide because I knew it was Andy Samberg [TS]

  but at the line I was any Samberg to it just you know came along anyway in case you're wondering the man's name is Andy [TS]

  Samberg. So everybody was wrong except me. [TS]

  You didn't say anything right didn't make you right but you were you were correct in saying you were not wrong. [TS]

  You should've corrected me in real time so we would have had the saltpeter [TS]

  and real time fall you seem I know who that is or what you were talking about you know who Andy Samberg is come on. [TS]

  You overestimate me. Now I go yet that guy you know you don't know the name. That may be also unlikely. [TS]

  I think you would if you were. [TS]

  If you've ever seen a recent Saturday Night Live not now recent but within the last five ten years recent. [TS]

  If you've seen Brooklyn Nine nine [TS]

  and he's been in a bunch of movies too although there are scaping me off my head so far too lazy Sunday which was a [TS]

  never heard of a written reference that you made was on a boat he's in the on a boat thing I'm on a boat the first time [TS]

  I saw that was [TS]

  when I recorded it to insert into the show last week where I heard about it so I knew roughly what you were talking [TS]

  about but I didn't know anything else about like I had never heard the whole thing. [TS]

  Same thing with going to box like when I came out same people right. [TS]

  Yeah like two weeks earlier something yeah that was like the entire world was obsessed with that [TS]

  and I love I didn't hear it for like six months it was really funny so I got it. [TS]

  It again Andy Samberg is part of a trio called Lonely Island. [TS]

  They're the ones with the I'm On A Boat Song [TS]

  and they came out with an album two three months ago maybe a little more than that [TS]

  and I read a review of it which is weird because I never read album reviews [TS]

  but I read a review of it on like a rolling stone or pitchfork or something hipster [TS]

  and the point that they made about the album was you know it's supposed to be satirical rap in so it's sort of kind of [TS]

  weird Alysha Other Weird Al was deliberately goofy whereas they are more satirical in my personal estimation. [TS]

  Well anyway they said that the problem with the Lonely Island album is that the music is good enough in the writing is [TS]

  good enough that it's not really that satirical after all that. [TS]

  So they totally kind of escape or missed the point of the entire album which was to be satirical [TS]

  and silly so that they accidentally made an album that was just good enough to not be taken as a joke which was their [TS]

  intention. Exactly right. Now it's weird. Should I be a little bit embarrassed that first of all I had never heard T. [TS]

  Pain before [TS]

  but while watching the on the boat video I was like the only music I was actually enjoying wasn't he pay me saying it [TS]

  was actually singing and not just yelling. [TS]

  I'm so not a raft I clearly I mean well the comedy behind it though is that he was auto tuned to death like that was T. [TS]

  Pain's thing was to or at least the charge I knew was that he was like the first person to really embrace audit. [TS]

  Well that's not fair. [TS]

  The first person that everyone everyone realized really embraced auto tune [TS]

  and I think you could argue that many artists such as maybe Britney Spears had embraced auto tune a long time before [TS]

  him. But but yet that's kind of his shtick. [TS]

  And [TS]

  and yeah either way he was definitely the most musical part of that which I was trying to get some kind of musical enjoyment [TS]

  out of it because I'm like well I'm going to listen to something called music. [TS]

  I might as well attempt to extract some enjoyment out of it [TS]

  and that was the only source of any any promise in the whole thing. He didn't like the lyrics at all. [TS]

  I think one verse was kind of funny maybe. But like the holes I was sitting there like this is still going. [TS]

  Like I couldn't believe how long I figured it was like a forty five second S N L skit not made an entire you know three [TS]

  or four minute whatever song out of it. [TS]

  Now it's the real deal that he should have stayed as a as a thirty second to get a you should there's there's a couple [TS]

  of other couple other videos that they've done that are pretty good there. [TS]

  Semi-colon video I thought was pretty awesome [TS]

  and it's all about using semi-colons properly which which I thought was enjoyable something credible is seeing that [TS]

  want to write I don't know that that's a given put in the show notes force market to watch it I have seen nothing even [TS]

  you have to understand any any question that begins with you know. Surely you've seen blank. No you do all day. [TS]

  Yes I sending you more links. [TS]

  Seriously you soon don't actually watch them make TIFF press your little hand on the mouse button [TS]

  and the other mentally switching to Chrome to make flash work to play it and not worth. [TS]

  When I had my music open my chrome ghetto it's just not worth it. [TS]

  Well what do you mean pause your music you're listening to Phish that's not music because your knowing is open you're [TS]

  only open your flash ghetto etc Anyway what else is going on. What did what did Wall receive P. [TS]

  Tell us John at the Cullen pick Ryan tweeted to say that the last show was talking about they were using bundles for [TS]

  upgrades. [TS]

  A concept we discussed long ago [TS]

  and last week's show we posted I hope the link is in the show it's of a screenshot of this actually happening in the [TS]

  store [TS]

  and I mention the scenario where it could actually be more expensive to get a second app as part of an upgrade bundle [TS]

  then it would be reduced by the second half on its own [TS]

  and convert into say that apparently the store now forbid you from purchasing a bundle if it would be cheaper for you [TS]

  to buy the the other apps like individually so I guess that's one workaround to this problem with bundle pricing [TS]

  but so thanks for the read to me and complicated like people. [TS]

  I don't know the mess looks like that in tests that I didn't have a scenario where I don't have a bundle [TS]

  and I could try it out but what does it say to you Don't you understand why you can't buy this bundle [TS]

  and what you should do instead. And very confusing. Yeah it's very weird. [TS]

  Additionally somebody had asked us for you to explain how you're handling trim support with your new found baby S.S.D. [TS]

  Can you recap what trim is and then talk about what you're doing about it and this is a common question [TS]

  when I mention that I got an S.S.D. [TS]

  Because people who have [TS]

  and it's you know it's a third party as they are sticking it into a mac that never had it didn't ship with an S.S.D. [TS]

  and Ever want to know about term support what am I doing with supporters a bunch of wrinkles. [TS]

  Somebody so trim I don't notice stands for but trim is a command they get sent to an S.S.D. [TS]

  That tells it that a bunch of blocks of data on it are no longer being used so the S.S.T. [TS]

  Is free to sort of reclaim them for future use in the sounds weird was like why would you need this [TS]

  and this is the one she's on disk and has to do with the way disks are addressed by computers [TS]

  when he used the Unix parlance it's like a block addressable device whereas just this device hanging out there [TS]

  and you and you said addressing and bytes you can President blocks like you know whatever four K. or Whatever. [TS]

  Actually that's not only end blocks were going to forget about the block thing they risk having this contrary a [TS]

  constraint on that as well. You know because this file system blocks and there's the black dresses. [TS]

  Yeah now we're getting into file system so [TS]

  when you're addressing a disk you have to write a file system two in the file system as the structures that you put on [TS]

  it to keep track of where reading is so you have a little index over here on the disk going to write it like a little [TS]

  tree or something and this is going to look up where the files are [TS]

  and then you know there's a whole bunch of different techniques depending on the thousand to find where all the pieces [TS]

  of this file as a big long continuous string probably not probably there's a bunch of pieces [TS]

  and then a pointer to another bunch of pieces and a pointer to another bunch of pieces [TS]

  and you've got blocks a direct you to other blocks. [TS]

  Got a doubly indirect block in Tripoli indirectly I mean this is all that the realm of the file systems job is to put a [TS]

  bunch of things on disk structure so we can find the data and [TS]

  when you delete a file on most file systems all you do is go to the little place where you would look up where all the [TS]

  stuff for the file is and you just erase that entry. [TS]

  It's like erasing an entry in the end like the index of a book right. [TS]

  It doesn't touch the actual data that belong to the file the data the blunder the file still sitting there. [TS]

  All you did was a race like the bookkeeping information that the structures in the file system that would tell you [TS]

  where to find that stuff [TS]

  and that's where you can under leak files of people remember undelete utilities back from the DOS days [TS]

  and everything like that because you know [TS]

  when you delete something it doesn't take as long as writing you don't you know overwrite all that is why he isn't the [TS]

  kind of secure do it that's fine for a spinning disk. [TS]

  But for as these are these are a little bit weird everything about memory chips is weird [TS]

  and I don't know this is true of all his days which is why I will go to a little bit. [TS]

  But for in the early days of these [TS]

  and probably still is the case for most of them the way the memory is addressed in the little chips that make up the [TS]

  S.S. [TS]

  D.'s You can't just grab one little sort of block size piece and read and write it [TS]

  when you want to write something you have to write it in a large chunk even if you're just interested in one little [TS]

  piece of it. And furthermore you can't write to a bunch of memory that already has stuff in it. [TS]

  So what you have to do is read that entire gigantic chunk into into some other memory temporarily [TS]

  or race that entire gigantic chunk modify little chunk you want to change in the copy that you made to memory before [TS]

  you raised it and then write the holding back which seems incredibly inefficient [TS]

  or that's the way it has these work for a variety of reasons [TS]

  and that means that even if that space isn't used like even if you are a school entry [TS]

  and that all the files guy DELETED DELETED that five game movie [TS]

  and just erases the little tiny look up table where those five gigs were that five years data still in the chip so the [TS]

  next time you want to write something if it's lands on one of those play. [TS]

  This is where that five year was it can't just go I'm going to write the data there [TS]

  and have to erase it first you can't unlike a spinning disk where you can just write a running spot like writing in an [TS]

  operation he said I don't care where I'm writing just start writing because just enough looks a little magnetic poles [TS]

  in the disk and you're all set. [TS]

  You don't have to erase it for you right but I said not only do you have to raise it before you write [TS]

  but you have to raise this big gigantic block and modify a little bit in the copy that you got [TS]

  and then put the copy back on so the trim command is optimization in the operating system [TS]

  when you delete a little file to the OK I'm going to delete this little entry from the file system [TS]

  but also notice on his command to the to the disk by the way I deleted the entry for this for this file the file has [TS]

  them so you should go and find all the blocks that belong to that thing [TS]

  or tell you where those blocks aren't they the Marchese being freed gives us a chance to erase those blocks so that [TS]

  when something is to be written later it doesn't find itself stumbling onto where you know because there's anybody as [TS]

  the as the has no idea about the file system it is just a big addressable chunk of storage the file system is all [TS]

  something that happens in the realm of the operating system so yes is the has no idea what to file with not to delete a [TS]

  file just obeys commands just stupid you know. [TS]

  Box for the most part so that's why trim is useful because it lets the operating system tell the S.S.D. [TS]

  I deleted the files all the blocks of longer file that were here here here and here. [TS]

  They're not used anymore so when you get a chance maybe in some idle time erase those because later [TS]

  when you need to write something you can have some freshly response message by the way want to reason that says these [TS]

  are the early ones would slow down [TS]

  when they are full because that would mean that the number of places that you can write like the places that are raced [TS]

  in an array state would go down because you know the is almost full So any time I needed to write anything [TS]

  and have to read an entire junk back erase the entire thing modify a little bit write a back there wasn't any fresh [TS]

  sort of Greenfield to put stuff in. [TS]

  So here's the thing with trim Apple I believe supports trim on most of it us is easy to build [TS]

  and most of all I don't know the situation is now I think maybe all of them [TS]

  but it doesn't support trim for third party Estes. No so I bought a third party S.S.D. [TS]

  If you go do the System Information application in Yosemite. [TS]

  You can you know select your little eighty a bus or south of us where everything is on and it also trims support yes [TS]

  or no [TS]

  and mine says no so people are asking hey did you use this thing called Trim enablers all matches the lock system extension [TS]

  type things that will force the operating system to enable the trim command even addresses the is not one supplied by [TS]

  Apple as some people have been doing in past versions of the O. [TS]

  Us but Yosemite will not load the kernel extension that has not been signed [TS]

  and to sign a kernel extension here is we need to build it yourself you need to sort of have the source code [TS]

  or something and compile it. [TS]

  But Apple does not release the source code to it's part of the called Age the advanced hosts something interface which [TS]

  you get that suddenly invents host controller interface. [TS]

  Apple doesn't release the source code to those to that driver for O S ten. [TS]

  So third parties can't make their own drivers and sign them [TS]

  and load them all they can do is attack they were doing before [TS]

  but you Samuel basically refused to load kernel extension that isn't signed so the only way to get criminal work in [TS]

  Yosemite is to turn off the thing that says I will only load signed kernel extensions which is not a great thing to do [TS]

  because it is a good security feature in it like a virus [TS]

  or malware can't throw a kernel extension into your system like even if it gets like a temporary root access to that [TS]

  tricks you into entering your local password and writes a kernel extension somewhere and you know any routed [TS]

  or whatever the system will not load a kernel extension as unsigned if they signed it. [TS]

  Presumably it's signed with an apple developer idea to have some contact information like they could find the [TS]

  responsible parties like if someone goes to the effort to make a malware with the same kernel extension always Apple [TS]

  would have some recourse to find out who these people are because presumably their whatever their authentication [TS]

  methods of determining if you're a real person or giving you a developer ID [TS]

  and they also revoke your certificate invalidate that and do all sorts of other things I would do it. [TS]

  So this is a very long winded and possibly taken slightly take really an accurate way of getting to it. [TS]

  Russian which was am I doing this thing am I am I using trim unable [TS]

  or am I disabling the kernel extension signing in Yosemite or checking for kernel extended fingers in your sanity [TS]

  and the answer is No And the reason I'm not doing it one is that I don't really like the idea of bypassing the security [TS]

  feature in Yosemite even though it wasn't there. [TS]

  Previous ones are just like why would I do that unless every then that leads to the second reason which is until [TS]

  and unless I see performance problems with my S.S.D. and Those performance problems are solved by enabling trim. [TS]

  I'm not going to even consider doing this like Otherwise I'm going to wait until there's a problem. [TS]

  And of sudden I feel like the used to be really fast but now it's getting slow [TS]

  and that that leads to the final nuance in that as these have on them like they see a little computer that manages the [TS]

  storage of man just like the right leveling and all sorts of other things because you can only read [TS]

  and write flash certain number of times for it wears out [TS]

  and these are over provision depending on if they're like an enterprise as the consumer S.S.D. [TS]

  They give you more storage and you think you have to wear leveling will use up sections [TS]

  and there's a complicated little computer in there managing the chips [TS]

  and the complexity of what's going on inside an S.S.D. [TS]

  Is increasingly divorced from the view of that from the operating system as just a simple box of bits that you can [TS]

  address. [TS]

  And so the assumptions about trim that you have to tell the thing to trim because otherwise it's going to be [TS]

  inefficient or whatever it's not the F A Z knows where the deleted files are [TS]

  but it's more like what's going on inside that S.S.D. It's like the operating system can't know better than the S.S.D. [TS]

  when and How it needs to to do its work because in the grand scheme of things you're going to have to erase that. [TS]

  That the blocks of the block that five year about hard before you write to him anyway. [TS]

  And maybe it's better to do it soon rather than later like send a germ command [TS]

  and tell that as a day to get rid of it during an idle period of ever [TS]

  but the operating system can just send that as the suggestion is for all all for all it knows it has the read from [TS]

  command and filed it away in a queue somewhere. [TS]

  Doesn't do it for a long time [TS]

  or maybe doesn't do it ever because actually it turns out there was another eye operation address the same thing [TS]

  and validates the tram [TS]

  and whatever so I don't know the interview did you know what's going on inside as these he did [TS]

  but I do know that the storage management iness these has been changing a lot so I'm not entirely sure whether trim is [TS]

  as necessary as that used to be I think it probably still is useful in most benchmarks bear out that if you don't [TS]

  enable train you have serious problems especially when storage gets tight. [TS]

  But anyway I am what I'm doing is living Yosemite's kernel extension signal strength in the way it is [TS]

  and if I find that my system is going slow I will follow the instructions which we'll put in the show notes the very [TS]

  scary process of disabling kernel extension signature checking [TS]

  and using Terminator so I've had on my work MacBook Pro I've had a third party S.S.T. [TS]

  Since I received the machine in you know of this one. Well it's a right. Yes Gina twenty twelve. [TS]

  I did not knowingly do anything to to enable [TS]

  or disable term support in the thing still screams YES WAY faster than a spinning disk right. [TS]

  Mark Marco Have you ever been able Tremont any of your various third party as a state. [TS]

  No I always have just forgotten to do that. [TS]

  I mean one thing I always I mean this is now almost ancient history but when S.S. [TS]

  D.'s were first getting to consumer stuff and they were getting popular the sand force controllers came out [TS]

  and became a big splash because before this election I think before trim existed as a command that you could send. [TS]

  Basically you know certain entities that do things kind of the dumb way [TS]

  and would have to you know they would fill up [TS]

  and then they would have that have whatever it's called like the rightful [TS]

  and whatever whatever that's right degradation I think it's called right amplification where we all you just wanted to [TS]

  write one little thing but it turns out would you have had to erase a huge swath really huge swath modify [TS]

  and write it yourself right. It was like after the S.S.B. Was. [TS]

  Once as you described earlier like after it was ever filled up [TS]

  and all right over time what it would then be slower than that initial that anyway. [TS]

  So Sand Force was a controller company they made those little computers on the other cities to figure out where to put [TS]

  things and how to write things and they figured out various techniques [TS]

  and optimizations to basically avoid that problem [TS]

  and minimize that problem without trim support just by like how they would spread the rights around [TS]

  and how they would buffer them and things like that. [TS]

  Various tricks I don't know I don't know all the details [TS]

  but so I would just I would always just buy Sand Force controller as S.D.S. [TS]

  Because I knew you know first trim didn't even exist and then when it did [TS]

  when it was added Macs didn't support it at all. [TS]

  First and then [TS]

  when Apple did finally add support for it in the US it would only work on these white with the disks which end [TS]

  and I didn't have any of them. [TS]

  So for all of my third party other cities I just I bought I didn't really need term support and just never [TS]

  and never bothered trying to hack my way into enabling it. [TS]

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  Mr Syracuse could you tell us about the source list and opacity and Yosemite. [TS]

  There's an old city back from owner complaining about just some of the transparency stuff in the sidebars [TS]

  and all it has is from Robert Cooper and he was sending a note maybe you can talk about this [TS]

  or I don't know that you can choose for the sourceless to be opaque programatic way if you're writing an application [TS]

  can we talk about this or any sounds familiar I don't think we did [TS]

  and we're talking about it again I think he's a developer for Skype because he says in one of his tweets we've chosen [TS]

  to do that in Skype seven I haven't operated seven so I haven't seen it yet [TS]

  but I think they say that they chose to make the sidebar opaque and got seven. [TS]

  This I mean that you can permanently do it yeah of course and you are permitted to do anything right here. [TS]

  Yeah you know you know you had the example sources you could fake it if you want to but it's nice to see the option [TS]

  but the important thing about the transparency in Yosemite is what the defaults are for applications that were compiled [TS]

  and built before you somebody even shipped that they can end up with like you know like Outlook twenty eleven. [TS]

  They can ship with the hundred thousand sidebar they had no idea they were ever going to have a transition sidebar [TS]

  and here they are running on your seventy with friends a sidebar that they never planned on having [TS]

  and those default show how dedicated Apple is not like hey we're going to have this new feature [TS]

  and if you want to use it just you know flip this little bit in this A.P.I. [TS]

  When you make this call and you get a transition sidebar not the opposite everybody into it. [TS]

  Which is a bold move [TS]

  and you know I don't particularly like it because I think the apps that never meant after experiencing cyber is a [TS]

  little weird and even the ones that want to have it sometimes don't look great. [TS]

  We've talked about that for a fact about at length on this broadcast [TS]

  and the talk show so reference those up so if you don't hear more whining about transparency in Yosemite that's what do [TS]

  we want to finally clear out this Game Cube controller followup that spent in a heart show notes for an eternity. [TS]

  Sure this is from someone named Rich long ago I was discussing the Game Cube controller [TS]

  and the adapter though if you use a game controller with it we you so you can play Smash Bros I was in. [TS]

  Side of that the adapter would also let you play any other game that use the program troll or for that we you [TS]

  but I was not the case and I was sad about it [TS]

  and I was mentioning it was because I thought it was pretty damning evidence against the program troll of the broken [TS]

  rollers the traditional looking and troll there were two analog sticks and buttons [TS]

  and triggers you know a typical looking in troll or that Nintendo made for you specifically. [TS]

  And yet when Smash Bros came out they offered this adapter for the games you control [TS]

  and I'm saying like if they if the program was really any good intend it would not have felt the need to make an [TS]

  adapter. [TS]

  Rich was writing in to clarify [TS]

  or to clarify the games you control was there just because Smash Bros players are addicted to it [TS]

  and because it's wired instead of wireless if you're not using the waiver and I know this [TS]

  but it's worth it's worth pointing out why I still think it's evidence of the probing troll [TS]

  or not is not fulfilling its job like. [TS]

  If Nintendo's going to make a new traditional looking controller they should make something that is satisfactory to all [TS]

  but the hardest of hard core smash brother players [TS]

  and this you know Apple's not going to make an adapter just for people who compete internationally as tournaments [TS]

  there's just not enough of those people in the entire world this adapter is for the wide range of people who play Smash [TS]

  Brothers [TS]

  and it's basically Nintendo admitting that even if you're not a professional Smash Brothers player we understand that [TS]

  the probe for a controller is not is not is not better than the game controller So here you go we're actually going to [TS]

  make a peripheral and advertise it and sell it to regular people [TS]

  and reissue the game to control the Smash Bros logline [TS]

  and again this is not a product that is only for competitive smash brother players they're going to sell way more of [TS]

  them than just the people who can confirm it. [TS]

  Obviously to the people who be in tournaments yet this product is for them they want to wire the need reaction times [TS]

  they want to control the use for a long time so and so forth [TS]

  but I still feel like if Nintendo had made the way you program troll or so that it was. [TS]

  Quizzically unassailably better than the game cumin troll or [TS]

  and was perceived as such by customers it would not have felt the need to make a mass market product like this so you [TS]

  can use your game controller smash bros again and I agree with them and I agree with popular opinion. [TS]

  The program trailer is very well made but I think the layout [TS]

  and the shape are not as good as the game controller except of course the D. [TS]

  Pad which is extra ball and everybody hates [TS]

  but that's why the game controller is not perfect is that the only reason that and the triggers are not great [TS]

  and of course is evil and that every expert you know if they could. [TS]

  That's part of the triggers the triggers are passable you can get by with them the triggers has something to recommend [TS]

  them and but they're not that great but the main control the using games thumbstick buttons. [TS]

  Like that's what you have your hand on the left thumb isn't some secure at the moment hitting a bunch of buttons the [TS]

  Game Cube trailer is the current peak of controller design from intend controller design as far as I'm concerned. [TS]

  Our second sponsor this week is Harry's go to Harry's dot com A R R Y S dot com and you can promote A.T.P. [TS]

  Say five dollars for many of us shaving is a pain. [TS]

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  and razor blades today are rigorously expensive Harries are started by two guys who want a better product without [TS]

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  These are high quality high performing German blades crafted by shaving experts giving you a better shave that respect [TS]

  your face and your wallet. Harry's office factory direct pricing at a fraction of the big brands. [TS]

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  and it's it's so much easier to get shipped in directly to your door like any other you know modern purchased in this [TS]

  decade. The starter set and Harry. [TS]

  An amazing deal for fifteen bucks you get a raise or moisturizing shave cream and three razorblades [TS]

  when you need more blades. [TS]

  They're just two dollars each or less in a package fifteen bucks a sixteen package twenty five bucks. [TS]

  These are amazing prices if you look like you know check out what you're paying for your Gillette Fusion [TS]

  or whatever you know I would say. So they sent me a kit. I used it it was great. [TS]

  I would say the quality of them is right up there with the Gillette Fusion blades which were my my my normal usage [TS]

  blades. Harry's is about half the price. Twelve blade for twenty bucks you know I mean it's amazing. [TS]

  Fantastic pricing [TS]

  and I want to change the blade more often you know you can afford to change it more often which if you even better [TS]

  shave his fresh blade you're always better than old blades [TS]

  and the rest you can I think is really nice that the handle is really this is like nice metal classy heavy thing. [TS]

  Really enjoy the Harry stuff. Apparently there's a month of November. [TS]

  Yes So I do that the last couple years [TS]

  and I don't know if I'm to be able to do it this year because my life is so out of control at the moment [TS]

  but all you have to do is not shave. [TS]

  Well yeah so anyway the idea is you shave everything except your mustache for the entire month of November. [TS]

  It's supposed to raise awareness and hopefully money for men's health issues. [TS]

  Just anything men's health related and if you're going to trim everything [TS]

  but your stash I would do it with a Harry's razor in fact Harry's is the official razor partner of most ember whether [TS]

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  and do good by supporting Movember quest to fund important health research with Harry to get to give us an ease of [TS]

  ordering online to get high quality blade you get a great handle on shaving cream [TS]

  and excellent customer service at half the price of the big brands I guess [TS]

  or with a starter set you get a handle three blades and cream for just fifteen dollars shipped to your door. [TS]

  Go to Harry's dot com dot com and use promote code A.T.P. To save five dollars. If your first purchase. [TS]

  Thanks a lot to Harry for sponsoring us and Movember. [TS]

  All right so we're actually in two main topics only thirty thirty five minutes into the show this might be a record for [TS]

  us for the last couple months. I'm very proud of us. [TS]

  Well let's talk about this Microsoft band of which I have not had time to read anything about outside of listening to [TS]

  underscore David Smith's podcast about it or a pike S.F. Assert about it which we'll put in the show knows. [TS]

  So what do you guys tell me what this is about. Not everyone at once. Yes in America. [TS]

  No I haven't actually I only saw people talking about it [TS]

  but I don't know anything about it except that it looks like what appears to be a pretty decent wearable for an [TS]

  ecosystem that nobody's going to use. [TS]

  I've seen him play with a couple minutes [TS]

  and so I can't really talk about the usage of it although I underscore had a good post about his usage of it like why [TS]

  he bought one and what he thinks of it [TS]

  and we'll link that up an assurance if you want to get sort of a hands on experience of using it I'm just sort of play [TS]

  with it and I was looking at it from a hardware perspective [TS]

  and there is this great sort of you know exploded view diagram at Microsoft dot com slash Microsoft type and band. [TS]

  If you scroll to the very bottom of the page as well animation that shows how it's constructed [TS]

  and it's is an interesting take on on how to get all the hardware they want into a band type shape so this thing is [TS]

  aiming for it's kind of weird like it's not going to be like a full full fledged little computer on your wrist to the [TS]

  same degree. Apple Watch is in that they don't expect you to do much on the screen much interacting in two D. [TS]

  Like the screen is very long and thin. [TS]

  So it's kind of a one dimensional device where useless lighting white right and left but there's not a lot of up [TS]

  and down does not even a lot of like hitting the top button or the bottom buttons a lot of like little side bars [TS]

  and swiping to the sides [TS]

  and showing a little half a half a little letter poking off the other side of the screen so you know there's more over [TS]

  there is you know which direction you know typical Windows Phone style Metro Uighur type. [TS]

  So in that respect it's not like the Apple Watch where you've got the studio thing [TS]

  and you could have different sets of buttons and a dial and all of her things like that. [TS]

  But unlike the Apple Watch for example this does have a G.P.S. [TS]

  Built in so you can go for a jog with it without having your phone with you to do the G.P.S. [TS]

  Part of like tracking where your original route was and everything that is so smart. [TS]

  Yes but you sense like you know who's going to have a Windows Phone to join up [TS]

  but it does have all the sensors are a lot of the same sensors as the band [TS]

  but it is an interesting thing where instead of the sensors for like your pulse [TS]

  and everything like that being underneath the sort of chunky top part of the watch they've split that start up stuff up [TS]

  so the sensors are sort of like inside your wrist like where you take your pulse [TS]

  and the screen is on the outside of your wrist where you look at your watch which is an interesting way to keep the [TS]

  thing on top because they don't have to have the sensors there [TS]

  but that means that the bottom of the watch sort of the part where class together has a lump a lump at the bottom of [TS]

  the strap is going us where the sensors are and then to find a place to smuggle I think I can tell from the diagram [TS]

  but I assume this is where the smuggling the batteries they put the batteries in the sides of the band they have little [TS]

  stiff regions on the sides of the band left [TS]

  and right side of the band that are curved occur plastic that doesn't bend [TS]

  and inside there I'm assuming are a little battery packs or something. [TS]

  Because otherwise I don't know where they're repairing the battery. [TS]

  What that means is the shape of this watch the shape of this band is kind of like a square as a stiff rigid screen on [TS]

  the top there's a stiff rigid sensor bundle on the bottom and the left and right side is the sort of curved [TS]

  but still rigid regions and tween that there's a little bit of flexing [TS]

  and the the clasp that it just has like a little groove about an inch long groove that you can sort of slide it along [TS]

  in the groove in whatever point the groove you want to just release the thing into a clause gravel in the group so [TS]

  there is some size adjustability I think they offer the actual band in three sizes because this is not like the Apple [TS]

  Watch where it's like a little computer and then a flexible band that you can adjust the length right. [TS]

  This computer is essentially all around your wrist this is a very much more. [TS]

  Like what I was thinking although not a quite a delegate about what I was thinking of in terms that you could take [TS]

  advantage of the band to let you have more room to put hardware but Apple has made a very different choice here [TS]

  and I think the biggest violin with these products is not like oh my gosh our band as U.B.S. [TS]

  Of the magazine band has to work with all sorts of other phones who can just work with Windows Phone because it's like [TS]

  a partisan ecosystem there's no one no one is into I think the big difference is that Microsoft's band is so clearly [TS]

  not going for anything having to do with fashion. [TS]

  An Apple Watch is so clearly focused on fashion at least half of its you know the effort of that product is of course [TS]

  we're not going to make it like all one colour [TS]

  and computer we looking into have lumps we're going to make something look like jewelry [TS]

  and we're not going to bring the band because that's supposed to be decorative interact with the device should be [TS]

  decorative the band should be doctored the entire thing is to be decorative because it's a fashion accessory. [TS]

  Mega subband is absolutely not a fashion accessory in any way [TS]

  and that way perhaps it plays more to Microsoft's strengths because they've never been known to be a particularly [TS]

  fashionable brand but anyway I think the really interesting design choice for Microsoft [TS]

  and I'm excited by the fact that this wasn't like a demo is like you know C.D.'s [TS]

  or something that never actually ships or that ship for a year is a product that no one knew about [TS]

  but they announced and said Here it is you can go buy it. [TS]

  So I give this this product [TS]

  and the effort from Microsoft a big thumbs up in the same way that it kind of didn't like the whole Windows Metro's [TS]

  things up over they kind of they're doing their own thing they're not trying to copy Apple they're not being Samsung [TS]

  and their own thing is actually pretty cool [TS]

  and I hope this has more more success in the market let's say the you know the various device like Windows Phone [TS]

  and the US with the Metro interface. [TS]

  If I was into fitness which is is pretty far from the truth then I would I would buy this I think no question because [TS]

  I'm not into sadness. I don't have much of a use for it but I kind of like some of the tradeoffs they have made. [TS]

  Why do you say just because you're not into fitness. This seems used. Most of you. [TS]

  Well I'm not going to use Windows Phone. [TS]

  I mean it does it doesn't integration with I I saw the same it doesn't really read underscores thing about it like it's [TS]

  kind of a preview I'm assuming you're not using with a Windows on the zen like it's it's like a one way communication [TS]

  is not two way because it's not completely form integrated [TS]

  but he's getting the experience of being able to be notified on his wrist a little showbiz in the occasions [TS]

  when he compared to he divided the fitness bands I mean to summarize his post here for longer than just reading it [TS]

  aloud on the air but he's divided them into like the ones that are just always with you [TS]

  and track information like the fit bits [TS]

  and those necessarily you know they focus on just long battery life it's just a sensor attached to you [TS]

  but there's not much interaction with it are you not flitting around the screen [TS]

  and then there are the ones that have screens but those have been like I have to be sleepy all the time. [TS]

  I can't really do anything like a pebble or it's like Wake me up when you want to use me [TS]

  and use me through some limited interface because I take a lot of energy to do all this stuff [TS]

  and then I'll go back to sleep Slavin E. [TS]

  Ink screen or a very limited screen or they're not awake a lot of time [TS]

  and this is kind of the same category as like a combination of the two. [TS]

  All the fitness centers are there I don't know the battery life [TS]

  and the thing is by the way it all up in a sense are there I can do the persistence of things [TS]

  but it's also like these other devices where you can use it as a little computer I think does communicate with your i [TS]

  was device at least in one direction to show you notifications and stuff [TS]

  and it underscores that it's basically this convinced him that he'll really like the Apple Watch with the Apple Watch [TS]

  will be two way communication and I guess he won't care they have watches have G.P.S. [TS]

  Because that's not again he's not into a fitness type thing. The Apple Watch will count your steps. [TS]

  That's all you care about if you want to map your route then you have to run with your your i Phone [TS]

  but I totally think the lack of G.P.S. [TS]

  In the Apple Watch is like three generations away from being a moot point because they'll go at it since they can [TS]

  afford to do it with battery power I think that's optimistic [TS]

  but there is not picking on you Marcus because I think this is basically a pebble but better done and with a G.P.S. [TS]

  and I don't view it building on what underscore and John were just saying I don't view it as just a fit with a G.P.S.. [TS]

  I view it more as a pebble with a G.P.S. [TS]

  And my understanding of what I heard on developing perspective was it uses the same sort of A P I's that for example [TS]

  will let you rule that I drive uses in your car so that you can read your text messages on the screen if you set it up [TS]

  appropriately. So just like John was saying it's all one way. [TS]

  You know it all it's doing is saying hey you just got a text message and here's a text message [TS]

  and there's not much you can do to respond to it. [TS]

  On on the band I was called or watch [TS]

  but nevertheless at least you can see something there yet meaning in the trial because I I am also curious just to see [TS]

  like what is the actual real life utility of such a device. [TS]

  But that being said I mean we're going to we're going to be getting watch kit this month supposedly So I think I think [TS]

  this might just be for i OS developers [TS]

  and I was fans this might just be a temporary distraction for the next five months until we have a watch. [TS]

  Well now to score being his typical super industrious self is like he's got to get this so he knows that the utility is [TS]

  so he can create his fleet of watch out right [TS]

  and how this man possibly like there may be more than one of any of us checked to see if well I don't know how he does [TS]

  as much as always the same guy way because he could be like one of seven identical anyway. [TS]

  You could be a clone is what I'm saying [TS]

  but this gives him a chance to see what kind of applications would be good on this device [TS]

  and he sort of using it so that [TS]

  when the avalanche comes along he will know he will have a top ten list of the applications he's going to make. [TS]

  Well Casey still thinks about getting his best X. [TS]

  For ourselves what kind of you didn't feel shame about not updating past X. [TS]

  Don't feel shamed over gets beat you feel shame to during a time [TS]

  or guess of being developed underscore probably made seven apps like everyone else look bad you know. [TS]

  And that's really funny [TS]

  and you're right I mean if I had just a pool of money to just sit it just sitting there for me to waste away on silly [TS]

  devices I would absolutely buy one of these just to try it out [TS]

  and it definitely looks well I should say it looks cool in it. [TS]

  A feature set seems very neat to me like you were saying John it's not aesthetically the most pleasing thing the world [TS]

  it certainly doesn't look bad either. And I'm curious to see what comes of it. [TS]

  But only time will you know it's too bad that because it's Microsoft everyone just kind of fluffs it off immediately [TS]

  because as a friend of the show Ben Thompson saying the chat a minute ago you know the old Microsoft Microsoft this is [TS]

  kind of a new Microsoft it's really trying. [TS]

  And John you were you're talk about this really really trying to do something different and unique [TS]

  and a lot of times I think they hit the nail really close to the head than anyone gives him credit for. [TS]

  And so it's kind of a bummer to me that that nobody's really given them any credit from what I can tell. [TS]

  Well it that's not really the problem the problem isn't isn't credit. The problem is action. [TS]

  So it's the same thing that happened with web Oh S. Same thing happening with Windows Phone. [TS]

  Webber Webber last round of money that's on Microsoft's from well well that's why it's so the same thing happened where [TS]

  the geeks like us and maybe the tech press you know these things come out [TS]

  and they were like oh you know what this is really interesting everyone's interesting but this is really progressive [TS]

  or you know some word that means like this is cool. [TS]

  But then the conclusion is but I don't want it or this is great I love this [TS]

  but I'm not going to buy this instead of an i Phone And so I think this is going to have the same kind of problem which [TS]

  is you have this device for Microsoft right before this you know probably big device from Apple right. [TS]

  So you have this device from Microsoft that we're looking at now and saying this is really interesting. [TS]

  This might be really interesting there you know this is it they're doing a good job. [TS]

  But how many people who say this are going to be using one of these in a year instead of an apple watch. [TS]

  Well they have the same problem as Apple of old did where at a certain point it becomes like no matter what. [TS]

  All did it was always like yeah but that's just Apple. [TS]

  So like who cares like exactas and they like it's interesting or whatever [TS]

  but you know come on real computers use Windows like it's a side show you're not interested in once you kind of get out [TS]

  of that position once people start thinking of you as not not part of the mainstream not part of like the real thing. [TS]

  Then it's really difficult to ever to ever jump back up in the previous position where did you get people to like say [TS]

  I'm actually going to buy that because it starts to feel like I'm not going to buy a Mac. I'm a P.C. [TS]

  Guy Macs don't run the programs that I want to not familiar with how they work it just everything builds on top of [TS]

  everything [TS]

  and it becomes insurmountable the only way Apple itself out of it was with these spectacular flashy products initially [TS]

  flashy in ways they really weren't that's a you know substantial of like you know using fashion again why why do people [TS]

  care of the IMAX was just a computer like it was an OK Computer It wasn't a bad computer [TS]

  but he got to the i Macs were not all that impressive. [TS]

  It was because it was peeling translucent cooling and that's why the emigrant [TS]

  and the i Pod was then making a product that had already existed [TS]

  but doing it so much better than the other ones like and so is this so much better than the Apple Watch No it's not. [TS]

  So it's not going to do that for them [TS]

  but they must feel like Microsoft must feel like Apple did where it's like we're making good stuff like it's not bad [TS]

  it's good are usually sometimes it's the best or it's close [TS]

  and yet why is our reward not proportional to the quality of the programming. [TS]

  If we're making something it's like a present as good as something like and we get no market share [TS]

  and it just it just seems like it's not fair and so I feel for them [TS]

  but you know on the other hand I was you know a little bit of glee about the fact that they're in the position that I'm [TS]

  trying to hold a grudge like everything going for them but then [TS]

  when I think about ring to them like you know what if they if they got control they would just start making products I [TS]

  don't like again [TS]

  or make me sad you know you set a goal if we make a part of the eighty percent is good then it's just a market share [TS]

  and the problem is like something like this I think most people are going to have one wrist wearable at most most. [TS]

  Zero but but you know I think that the most Somebody will have is likely to be one [TS]

  and so the question is like not only is this good enough to buy [TS]

  but is this good enough to buy instead of the Apple Watch. [TS]

  And that's always that's the problem like most people don't carry two cell phones. [TS]

  Most people carry ones at least that they buy themselves most of the carry one cell phone most of them and then a P.C. [TS]

  but It was like a P.C. [TS]

  Was like a two thousand dollar investment you don't replace it every two years these type of devices are small enough [TS]

  and there's enough like advancement in the field they do like for a lot of people would try the i Phone or try [TS]

  and reduce my two year contract up like this and subsidize training [TS]

  but it just feels like it's it's not as big of a commitment to get back to what you said earlier about the ecosystem [TS]

  where you might feel like one of my what am I buying into here. [TS]

  Do I have faith that this is going to be a supported product line for the future [TS]

  or is this going to be like a one off [TS]

  or you know what was that Courier project that they had with like member that was like a tablet that open up like a [TS]

  book and they can that for it even got out the door. [TS]

  So it seems like Microsoft may not may be kind of a hostile environment to innovation at this point [TS]

  or they can mow that other one they made. [TS]

  Yeah like the social smartphone platform that they made like two of those from the side to guys and they died [TS]

  and then canned it like Microsoft needs to work on their not so much execution [TS]

  but hard times the products are like have something to recommend them but just like the decision about [TS]

  when to release it when to announce it and whether this is going to be using you follow through with [TS]

  and if it's not going to be then you fall through it like don't don't release the can line on the hopes like hey who [TS]

  knows maybe we'll take it off but we probably don't think it will it is actually kind of a crappy product [TS]

  and really did a kind of a half assed launch and then [TS]

  when it doesn't catch on like you know I do week later I says can the whole thing [TS]

  or a courier which is short of people people get excited about [TS]

  and then just say well you know let's just get rid of that you know like I know a couple who are excited [TS]

  but we don't really like it and don't show it like all the other things that Apple tries out internally [TS]

  and gets rid of we never hear about those That's what you have to do it you really really have to pick what they're [TS]

  going to do do it really well put the company behind it. And not do these things. [TS]

  Look it's actually interesting you said that they go away [TS]

  or kind of tumble out the door half heartedly enter cancelled like [TS]

  when was the can canceled like people like two months was very soon [TS]

  and you know in terms of that in show carrier that it just leaked. [TS]

  Oh that's also I mean it's part of the same drama that you show it [TS]

  or whether it leaks like if we need to not know about it [TS]

  when it is NOT have pictures of it I mean to not you know for all of the various like T.V. [TS]

  Products and tablet products [TS]

  and all the watch prototypes that Apple made like we got the first thing we got to see out of Apple that was like a [TS]

  watch type thing with the watch and they said they were going to make it. [TS]

  We did and we haven't seen all whatever crazy T.V. [TS]

  Stuff that they've tried and not released that we just assume is going on there. [TS]

  Apple's much better about deciding which products are good enough to go out the door [TS]

  and once a product does go out the door giving it a fair shot and putting the full weight of the company behind it [TS]

  and so we'll see if band gets that from Microsoft really quick aside. [TS]

  While I don't know if either of you guys have seen much of this but watching the N.F.L. [TS]

  These days is just a series of face palms because everywhere you see these bright blue Microsoft Surface tablet [TS]

  and it's so obvious that it's like a print product placement is one thing [TS]

  and I know it's a thing it happens everywhere and how Apple does it constantly but I don't know maybe I am biased [TS]

  but it just seems to me that it's done in a much more subtle way like I'm thinking of house for example you would see [TS]

  Macs all over the place but it was subtle. Whereas with the N.F.L. [TS]

  It's like here's the bright blue surface and there's a row of bright blue surfaces on the commentator staff Cindy. [TS]

  Here it is on the sidelines and on the Microsoft Surface they're reviewing the play right now [TS]

  and it's just so tacky to me. [TS]

  You had a similar problem in the most recent season on Netflix of Parks [TS]

  and Recreation where like it was which is not a very good season actually [TS]

  but anyway they you know they got some kind of big Microsoft sponsorship and so. [TS]

  In previous seasons everybody had i Phones and stuff. This season every computing device you see is a Microsoft device. [TS]

  Every character is carrying a Windows phone and using it proudly like holding up constantly [TS]

  and every computer that you see on the desk is it is a surface or at least running Windows eight [TS]

  and it's always like showing the Windows eight home screen prominently and [TS]

  and like you know it so that you have all these like screens and you have Microsoft in your face [TS]

  and it's like a good product placement should be both unnoticeable and plausible. [TS]

  Yeah yeah exactly and you know what you're saying what the N.F.L. [TS]

  Is that also it violates both these things like you shouldn't notice that they're beating you over the head with this [TS]

  one particular type of product. [TS]

  It should just seem like oh like I just kind of see people subconsciously [TS]

  and it seems like everyone's using Apple products amongst our products and the cool people or something like that [TS]

  but it's supposed to do [TS]

  and you're not supposed to notice a wow they're really beating me over the head with this one kind of product. And B. [TS]

  This is so unrealistic because in reality I know for a fact that these things are not good enough [TS]

  or popular enough that all these people would naturally have them you know [TS]

  and the chat room is going to Zircon we would even I was trying to I want to take credit for this I didn't for once I [TS]

  think it's going from the chat room I saw the start and I was with the I.R.S. This is on C.N.N. [TS]

  and The same type deal they have some kind of product placement deal with muggers or services [TS]

  and you can tell it's a service from the back because it sort of has that you know iconic kickstand that they have you [TS]

  know at the back of the service looks like a little thing falls out so it looks like he's all right [TS]

  and so what you see is a series of eagles sitting in front of all the different commentators. [TS]

  But [TS]

  when they have camera shots from the side what you can see here is a lot of the commentators have an i Pad that they're [TS]

  sort of using behind the surface like a shield you know if you can see that they're using the i Pad either is the i Pad [TS]

  is resting against the surface like it actually literally is an easel or they just have an i Pad in their hands [TS]

  and that's not good for Microsoft it's not good at all. It's so bad I don't know it's just you know. [TS]

  Granted I make my living off of Microsoft technologies [TS]

  and so there's there's always going to be a special soft spot in my heart for Microsoft [TS]

  but so much of what Microsoft does is so cheesy and silly and this is some of it in makes me sad. [TS]

  Passion is not a strong suit as I as Steve Jobs said Taste is not their strong suit. [TS]

  What else is awesome a state's Marca Lynda dot com is an easy [TS]

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  They have records for all experience levels beginner or advanced and everything in between. [TS]

  These courses are produced at the highest quality This is not like you know a little youtube videos that are really [TS]

  inconsistent this is a real high quality courses produced by professionals in their field they have like all these [TS]

  great like animations and graphs and examples [TS]

  and everything there are really high quality production here you can play straight through start to finish [TS]

  or you can just jump in to find a quick answer. [TS]

  They have tools like searchable transcripts you can kind of see what's being talked about you can click around jump to [TS]

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  They'll still teach you just how to use apps how do use productivity apps like my hot office stuff. [TS]

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  few and a number of things and they're all very very high quality and I was very impressed by them. [TS]

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  Lynda dot com slash A.T.P. Once again it's a seven day free trial access to all courses. L Y N D A dot com slash A.T.P. [TS]

  Thanks a lot will indeed accomplish sponsoring once again. So let's talk about I work twenty thirteen. [TS]

  What we're talking about this. Yeah well OK what else we talked about what did news happen. [TS]

  No I think this is a topic I mean it's not news news but it's one of those things that people complain about [TS]

  and I keep seeing it and they complain so go away [TS]

  and the more I think about it the more it reveals to me something that Apple like something Apple's doing it just [TS]

  doesn't make sense [TS]

  and Quinn to them because the people who are upset about US bashing my get on to something that Microsoft does much [TS]

  better than Apple and I don't really understand why Apple is doing with that view. [TS]

  When you have the new version of our year you know I don't think I have on the Mac. [TS]

  I think probably have and I didn't like freon I.O.'s or comes free with your devices [TS]

  or something like that I think is free everywhere now. Yeah. [TS]

  Anyway it's not about the specific programs which have their problems right. [TS]

  And the file formats are weird but it's about how they're handling backward compatibility [TS]

  and I grabbed this quote from an in for a lark I'm assuming is really accurate [TS]

  but it's not the gist of it is right it's not the details [TS]

  and so the detail of it here is basically if you get the new version of I work you can't open files created with any [TS]

  version of I work earlier than I work I work on nine. [TS]

  If you try to do that I work to techs that you're trying to open a document from something earlier than I was going on [TS]

  and. As you should find a copy of our work around our nine open the file with that instead. [TS]

  And so this is sort of leaving behind your own file format from not that long ago like less than a decade certainly [TS]

  probably you know less than five years ago. [TS]

  Whatever it is those documents can't be opened by the new version and a lot of the time [TS]

  when Apple sort of races forward leaving behind legacy things whether it's you know ditching everything several U.S.B. [TS]

  On the original IMAX or you know dropping support for an A.P.I. or Some hardware they were never like. [TS]

  There's a reason like it helps them to make you know it helps them get ahead of their competition because they're not [TS]

  encumbered by legacy stuff and so they can go [TS]

  and make the new shiny thing without worrying about dragging along with the baggage of backward compatibility because [TS]

  the baggage just gets bigger and bigger especially if you have a successful product in your past. [TS]

  Eventually all your time is spent trying to like support the past instead of worrying about the future so you can never [TS]

  make anything great but I don't see how that philosophy can be [TS]

  or should be applied to file formats because it's not as if we're asking the old file formats be supported forever in [TS]

  their current form. [TS]

  All I think most recently of or asking is if I create a bunch of documents that I work over the years [TS]

  and I get the latest version of my work I just want to be able to open them [TS]

  and I don't care that much that if I open the converts and the new format. [TS]

  As long as it does the conversion it's not lost me like it does look fine in the old version I worked [TS]

  when I converted to the new version though all my fonts are screwed up and everything was broken [TS]

  or whatever you just for file format to build compatibility making new file formats for example one of the reasons I [TS]

  speculated that maybe new file formats that are leagues of archives and stuff is for better compatibility with I.I.S. [TS]

  Because they wanted to unify the code base is fine it's a perfectly valid reason to change the file format [TS]

  and to rev the program [TS]

  and maybe you can argue if it's a good reason to dumb down the feature set to the common set of functionality that can [TS]

  work on i OS on the web and on an i Pad anyway whatever they're going to do that. It's fine. [TS]

  But by not reading the old five thousand for Matz it shows a lack of respect for the work the people done with previous [TS]

  versions of this program especially since probably the pre I worked on versions are going to stop working on modern [TS]

  expertise and that's the thing that Bill does which I think that does have a reason [TS]

  but you have to support the old file format because if you don't what you're say going to people [TS]

  and Apple said this to people in Iraq and also in pretty much everything you've ever done on the web. [TS]

  Do not trust us with your data. Make a bunch of picture galleries in like you know dot Mac. [TS]

  Well those are going to be gone and we switch over to the moldy galleries make a bunch of moldy websites with I web. [TS]

  Oh I was not supporting the more I hope you didn't hope you didn't write too much in your little blog that you made. [TS]

  We're converting over to this thing and by the way there's no way to get that content back out [TS]

  and make a bunch of documents with I work well five years are going to pass [TS]

  and you can't open them up I hope you save version of our a nine which by the way won't run on the computer you buy [TS]

  three years from now. [TS]

  Telling everybody you do not trust Apple with your data because we will abandon it we will race ahead. [TS]

  We will leave behind like I feel so bad for people who like we've got a lot of work and I will Web sites and that tool. [TS]

  What it did was basically give your native mac application a lake. [TS]

  Let people who know nothing about the Web make web pages [TS]

  and put them up on the hosting that was part of your service that you bought was not a very good program. [TS]

  The results are not very nice but the bottom line is people dragged in the pictures and typed lots of words [TS]

  and made a series of posts. And Apple is just like Well sorry that's going away. [TS]

  Hope you have some way to pull that down and back it up or something. [TS]

  I remember that year I was going around to kill my family and trying to find a way to like pull down the file [TS]

  and modify the link so they would still work locally so they can just have a local copy because people invested time in [TS]

  that and Apple has no respect for the time that people spend and I am a file formats. [TS]

  Apple has no respect for the work [TS]

  but in making word processing document so the lesson of teaching everybody is don't use our programs are Web services. [TS]

  If you care about being able to open this thing or view this thing in five or ten years and I think Apple's probably. [TS]

  I work [TS]

  and what is done with the web probably is probably the worst of the big companies like you know Apple Microsoft Amazon [TS]

  or whatever in breaking compatibility with no way for real you know sort of like importer export option [TS]

  or anything like that. [TS]

  I don't I'm angry about it I don't even use I work and by the way I don't work for this and many other reasons. [TS]

  I mean part of the problem. You're definitely right. I agree with everything you said. [TS]

  Part of the problem is bigger than than just this is a bad decision [TS]

  and I work in part that one of the parts of the problem is that Iraq doesn't get a lot of attention from Apple. [TS]

  There's a reason like there was literally no new update from two thousand and nine until two thousand and thirteen [TS]

  and the two thousand thirteen versions were not written during that whole time they were written at the last minute [TS]

  and rushed out the door. [TS]

  There's nothing like to spend a lot of time trying to sync up between theirs [TS]

  and I was very fond of the web version of the mac regime and try to make them all work on the same thing [TS]

  and all work together like that seems like what they put the effort in that's probably not your right a multi-year [TS]

  effort like that but who knows. [TS]

  I don't know what their schedules are like internally [TS]

  but the result was a program that didn't satisfy people because that that synchronization between the platforms sort of [TS]

  dumbed down the applications to the common subset of functionality there or across all of them [TS]

  and people are angry about that and the execution wasn't great [TS]

  but yeah going to just I don't I don't think it's because they didn't put enough effort into it because it seems like [TS]

  an input a lot of resources into or they just they just put them towards the wrong things. [TS]

  Well I mean the I work file formats have always been kind of a disaster so like the first versions of my work before oh [TS]

  nine. [TS]

  They say the everything as a as a MAC bundle which for those who don't know a bundle [TS]

  or a package whatever it's called a package is just a directory with the housing boom guys like special flags to make [TS]

  it into a package. How does that work. [TS]

  Now the finder is the thing that interprets the thing at the bundle [TS]

  but I said no that's classic Michael I believe it's the finder that interprets them as something other than a directory [TS]

  because of you. At them any place else other than the finder. [TS]

  It looks like exactly what it is a directory with a bunch of files in it right so that the first versions of i work [TS]

  there file format was these these fake files which are actually directories full of other files [TS]

  and that causes a lot of problems whenever that file has to leave the mac. [TS]

  Biggest thing is email attachments and secondarily you also can't put them in and upload forms and Web sites [TS]

  and the file input type because those expect single files and these are actually directories [TS]

  and you can imagine that was pretty annoying [TS]

  when you couldn't really email these things around very easily through most email servers or email programs [TS]

  and certainly not through windows at all. [TS]

  If it had to bounce through windows you couldn't email these files around from this office suite of applications like [TS]

  that was a pretty stupid move really. And so then in the later version I think in the own nine version they moved to. [TS]

  I believe it was just like a zip file. It was basically like it was. [TS]

  If you do rescue I file there is a file that was just all that data shoved into this container which is a much better [TS]

  way to do it and then with the new versions I think they didn't move back. [TS]

  I think the new versions they were some kind of have to look this up and write this up and link to it. [TS]

  There were some kind of move it was a it was a move like a step backwards because the justification was this is going [TS]

  to be easier to sync between i O. S. [TS]

  and I Cloud documents and mac and everything because it's because of the structure they've picked. [TS]

  Regardless the file formats of always kind of been a disaster that is changing radically [TS]

  and many times have had very weird decisions [TS]

  and it just seems like it seems like they used the I work team is not getting the resources it needs [TS]

  or that it is not a higher priority for our work to ever be truly great [TS]

  and I use I work I don't use my forever because I hardly ever need Office programs so it's not worth me buying office. [TS]

  You know I just use I work stuff and get away with it just fine and I do use views I work. [TS]

  As my only office suite for I don't know will be six seven years now so it's. [TS]

  I use this you know not not every day but I use it regularly and I know these programs pretty well now [TS]

  and they're just they're always like seventy five percent of the way there and they could be so good [TS]

  but it just seems like they don't get attention from Apple and I think what you're saying is true. [TS]

  It's very fair what you're saying especially about things like you know the little me photo galleries [TS]

  and stuff like that like all the photo stuff that is very valid. [TS]

  I think with I work I think it's mostly just an issue of these apps getting no love from Apple [TS]

  and secondarily them not caring about dropping that ability [TS]

  but like it wouldn't surprise me at all if they were going to write in support for the for the new apps to rebuild [TS]

  formats and it just got cut because they don't have the time because they didn't give this project [TS]

  and of resources from the beginning. [TS]

  Well they have a thing where they put out a version to drop a huge number of features [TS]

  and then kind of back filled apologetically as time allowed. [TS]

  Right yeah that's the that's one thirteen version which is still I think worse than the previous [TS]

  and I don't like I don't use all of these things regularly [TS]

  but I fall people are doing is like you know which used to be like the one the best program [TS]

  and that suite is like ever in those keynote is likely getting worse over time not better [TS]

  and that's something that Microsoft has always done so well. [TS]

  One support backwards compatibility support for their file formats by forever basically like they are the masters of [TS]

  that and you know if you go to that extreme but you should be good at it at least [TS]

  and it's not like my cousin didn't change their formats they went to you know as a file for the X.M.L. [TS]

  Stuff and you know Doc X. An excellent sex and all the stuff like they advanced. [TS]

  But [TS]

  when they advance they tried to be compatible because like that's their big selling point if you make documents in Microsoft [TS]

  Office Michael's office a lot of them are like Office ninety seven came out [TS]

  and like it was a split in form between ninety seven ninety five and people were freaking out or whatever I don't. [TS]

  I'm of the exact details of the years I'm sorry got it wrong [TS]

  but then you know they condition their user base to accept the format will change [TS]

  and feel safe that not likely documents are going to become unreadable [TS]

  and Apple's doing a diff the opposite their conditioning all the users to fear [TS]

  and to not trust any important data to it [TS]

  and the other thing Microsoft has done with a few bumps in the road like you know Word six of the mac an old saw that [TS]

  terrible stuff. [TS]

  They tend to make their programs better with time to program to get faster documents open faster they have more [TS]

  features they wouldn't like if one version of a program had really interesting typographic controls the next version [TS]

  the program were not drop all those features because like they're not possible I us are camped on the web [TS]

  or something like that would never do that there's no there's no major regression in functionality without some good [TS]

  reason like Oh we're we're definitely in the Access database so forget about that whole integration like you know [TS]

  but just just like hey this this thing adds a new ability to tweak the kerning on text in the next versions of yeah you [TS]

  know like earning stuff forget it we to be pulled it out it's gone [TS]

  and if you're going to talk you know that a custom kerning we're just going to show it a different way. [TS]

  Like that's not progress. [TS]

  Over time the reason will of software as it gets better faster stronger you know it does not sort of stumble along OK [TS]

  linkages that you then relied on disappear with no explanation. [TS]

  File formats get abandoned the navigation changes it looks in ways that are seem like a lateral moves items move around [TS]

  the interface for no discernible reason that is the web version you don't care about like other any like rabbit I work [TS]

  fans with the possible exception of Keynote which I think did I read advance [TS]

  and may still have them the rest of our just like. [TS]

  You know what's funny is this wasn't listening to what Mark of it said about how I work you know eighty percent of the [TS]

  way there I feel like so many of the things you just said about I work you could make a reasonable substitution of say [TS]

  I. A cloud or any number of other Apple software products. [TS]

  Heck even I was saved a lot of people I mean I I think I will say that's fine [TS]

  but you know yeah I think it's not fair for I was paid i Cloud like but I would say it is not worse than I was seven [TS]

  and it adds a bunch of things that you felt like you would be happy if you had them like I was didn't stench that was a [TS]

  big thing. Sure sure no I'm on a different point. [TS]

  You know my point was when when Marco was saying you know it's so close but it's not quite there. [TS]

  And i Cloud has gotten better [TS]

  but you know it seems like you could say that about a lot of things like so great example is [TS]

  and I was the ordering of the extensions in the share sheets I think that's what it is wherever the one password icon [TS]

  lives how you could at least put one you had you could have a one password extension. [TS]

  Yet when you tried to reorder what the order of those extensions were the order got reset constantly. [TS]

  Now I believe that's been fixed in the latest beta but that's a great example of how you were so close [TS]

  but then this is one really annoying thing that you didn't quite get right. [TS]

  I think that's much closer than I work at [TS]

  and even i Cloud which I had stumbled on the long term you have to say i Cloud Drive versus basically everything else [TS]

  they've ever done with documents. [TS]

  I can't drive is better than a cloud get versus everything else they've done in the same room. It is better. [TS]

  Maybe it's not there but you just want to see forward progress [TS]

  when you have a long running program like I work for a long running suite like I work that in [TS]

  and around for a long time is not updated on sort of on a regular basis such that you just often wonder like of the [TS]

  product dead or that is not going to do it anymore like i Life was the same way with a ring I like for the years [TS]

  and the name and then also new year would come and go [TS]

  and there'd be no new aisle I think like so is I live Still thing [TS]

  and then they release a point update to give the over to working like well the Someone's got to be some of their [TS]

  working on it because they're doing some work to make sure it works with the new US like vs Microsoft Office back in [TS]

  its heyday especially was like regular updates you know they're going to keep trying to make. [TS]

  Better maybe he'll disagree with something they've done or some weird interface [TS]

  or they employed a new crazy man using an office because Microsoft is organized like a like a crazy. [TS]

  I don't know what the right word is terrible and what her one hand and there was [TS]

  but anyway they always look like they were developing it [TS]

  and so many things with Apple are sort of like speculative abandonware just like Mark I was the one. [TS]

  Is anyone working on this. [TS]

  Probably like a guess but maybe not [TS]

  and I don't I mean the macro is speculative abandonware hardware for the longest time [TS]

  but in software that seems like a lot of that [TS]

  and you have to it has to be set at some point like maybe it has something to do with the fact that Apple feels like it [TS]

  shouldn't [TS]

  or can't sell the software anymore that everything has to be free that even the stuff that used to be four hundred [TS]

  dollars has to be seventy nine dollars now. [TS]

  You know like if if I work could be priced at something other than when you guys are saying it's reality [TS]

  and look at it like priced at some some price that is closer to sustainable. [TS]

  Maybe it wouldn't really fund all that development but just something [TS]

  but if they feel like they just have to give it away for free is a perk to try to make their hard or valuable. [TS]

  I don't see how a bunch of mediocre mediocre crappy programs make their hardware more valuable you know I mean [TS]

  but that's not you're not adding value no one is going over and if you get a nihilist [TS]

  and used to be a member I used to be like you know I like what it's like if you want to get I live you have to get a [TS]

  Mac. That was practically a system seller to use game console parlance right. [TS]

  Oh yeah people play with grunt in the store and like oh my God if I got a mac I could make music right. [TS]

  Delisle they have I for one know snow you have to have a mac like it was a system seller it was like all these things [TS]

  that you know I know I have a computer and people tell me I can use it to make movies to make music to burn C.D.'s [TS]

  but I know I personally can't use those things because it's way too complicated I would know where to begin [TS]

  and I lived was like hey we will make you successful at doing these things that you know are possible with a computer [TS]

  but you still feel are beyond your ability and I were. It's not a system seller. [TS]

  Nobody is buying Macs or i Pads or doing anything that involving Apple. [TS]

  Oh no good you know like if you know I work I could never do or processing before. It's not it's not a system seller. [TS]

  Yeah [TS]

  and I think you're I mean I don't think it's a pricing issue at all I don't think they ever sold high enough volumes of [TS]

  my work to to make the price of it matter much to their bottom line at all. [TS]

  But but it is very important to to push this to push the useless other platforms [TS]

  and you know not only not only from like an independent perspective like it's an insurance policy against Microsoft [TS]

  ever stopping making office for Macs. First of all and it's also to serve their I O. S. [TS]

  Interest to say look at how useful like the i Pad which really need some help right now. [TS]

  Look at how useful the i Pad can be for work and I.B.M. [TS]

  Can go and sell it for them they can sell [TS]

  and they can say look it runs all these Office apps because if Microsoft office pool for a while most of my jobs didn't [TS]

  exist on the i Pad Now it does but you know who knows if if it always will or how good it will always be. [TS]

  Now Apple can go around [TS]

  and say look you can get for this for this one low price of this i Pad that might be three years old a five for this [TS]

  one price you can get this i Pad and all this free software on it that's awesome [TS]

  and you should really buy this i Pad because of it and you're going to get all this work done [TS]

  and the problem is that you know so that's that's again the strategy tactic that's well they're not really that's their [TS]

  goal is to make their hardware sell more units that would make most of their money. [TS]

  But if the software is mediocre or absent it makes it very hard to do that. [TS]

  The weird thing is that with Iowa State now they've essentially given Microsoft all the tools needed to do the thing [TS]

  that previously would save all the Apple display only apples are going to ever bother to make it an office type suite [TS]

  of programs the work on the web and I.I.S. [TS]

  On the mac with the same file format all sharing between all synchronous But now with the advent of I. [TS]

  Dr Yosemite Iowa State extension is that Microsoft the reason Microsoft can't unify its office suite across all of its [TS]

  platform to using one driver whatever their services and having that integrated into i OS [TS]

  and having that available on Macs and you know like not only Apple can do this now [TS]

  and I wonder if Apple would be like relieved if someone of pick someone else picked up the mantle of because what Apple [TS]

  wants to sell is like we have a way for you to do word processing [TS]

  and doesn't matter where you do it if you do it on your mac. [TS]

  If you do it on a website if you do it on your i was device it's all the same document it's all the same program it you [TS]

  know it looks and works kind of roughly the same everywhere. [TS]

  With a native interface in each one of those things with a feature set the same across all of them so on [TS]

  and so forth like that's what they're selling. [TS]

  But if you do it with a bunch of mediocre applications the sort of unification they're going for I don't think that is [TS]

  as attractive if they say oh well especially [TS]

  when you know if I was more like really I know how to do that in Word I know how to make pivot tables in Excel I don't [TS]

  know anything about numbers I don't know what this page thing is and it's weird and it's kind of buggy [TS]

  and I use the old version I can't open the documents anymore [TS]

  and you know like that's why Office is still popular because Microsoft world's weirdness [TS]

  and all its troubles still has held to the contract of office like as a standard. [TS]

  You know like if you make your documents in this you'll be able to open them will do a good job of compatibility will [TS]

  try to make them look the same. [TS]

  I mean again it's been some of that to us like if you're going to run the Windows version of Office looks different on [TS]

  the Mac. [TS]

  Where in this font differences there's a whole thing about the Macs being what is it January one thousand know for [TS]

  something like that [TS]

  but is different than a Windows box all your dates in your powerpoint to be offset in like there are always problems. [TS]

  But Apple is not even it's not even a contender like there. [TS]

  They're defeating themselves like you know stop hating yourself Apple like they're punching themselves [TS]

  and not not a contender in this race and to put the devil's advocate for a second here. All the characters. [TS]

  Six that make Microsoft so good and reliable at being an office software supplier. [TS]

  Also make them very boring [TS]

  and unable to compete in a lot of consumer space because all those values like you need you need the opposite [TS]

  characteristics to make a lot of these to make a lot of great products in the spaces that we care more about these days. [TS]

  But that being said you know a lot of Apple's problems are just botched execution or bad decisions. [TS]

  Similar You know the people in point earlier like you could make a lot of the same arguments about Final Cut Pro tent [TS]

  when that came out that like it was Apple clearly like moving the ball forward way too aggressively [TS]

  and cutting WAY too much out and starting over [TS]

  and angering every user of this of these of the software he's sickly I think found the protests more defensible because [TS]

  they were moving forward they felt like they I think they miscalculated their power. [TS]

  Maybe like they thought they can make this great leap and they would leave some people behind [TS]

  but this future destination is better [TS]

  and in the end it will work out they could bring they could bring their market you know they can bring everybody had [TS]

  with them there would be stragglers people would grumble about kind of like O S ten it was kind of a mess in the [TS]

  beginning. People grumble but in the end the greatness of it compelled everyone to move along. [TS]

  And plus they got to the other audience of people who were never ends in the negatives as you know if anything has a [TS]

  nice going like that strategy work for them for us ten. [TS]

  They did essentially the same thing with Final Cut Pro It was also combined with like the crazy price drop thing like [TS]

  forget about I work being like you know although I was never sustain yourself then the things were sold I think the [TS]

  props were much closer sustaining themselves as as you know marketable products in their own right [TS]

  but even those got the axe [TS]

  and say like now you can't be two hundred dollars anywhere you go he said you know I'm boxes like this [TS]

  and Max will charge and so now you know they're not sustainable and they get less updates [TS]

  and produce anything didn't work out the way they wanted to and it just but a series of miscalculations [TS]

  and the pro apps are not are not things that are trying to help themselves are hardware. [TS]

  It is not that there's just too small of a market they were they were for Apple is for a while in the business of [TS]

  selling software to two pros and they seem to have sort of in the same way the law since you're selling X. or X. [TS]

  or Raid and everything seemed to have lost interest in pro software cancelling programs there are the careful shake [TS]

  or something like that. [TS]

  Proton I thought I thought I thought the proton was a good idea it just didn't quite work out as well for them as you [TS]

  know stand it. Well exactly it's and that's you know this is the problem. [TS]

  The Apple hardware is like fire and also owners the hardware these days is great. [TS]

  Last few years you see like almost every hardware product Apple has made in the last in the last three to five years [TS]

  has just been awesome. [TS]

  Like there's been very few exceptions to that and yet on the software side they're just crumbling [TS]

  and so many different fronts so frequently. [TS]

  I really worry about them because it used to be that they move much more slowly and were much smaller [TS]

  but they had a solid reputation of reliability and ease of use and stability [TS]

  and all of this was that's what carried their brand for so long that's why people would buy Apple products because it [TS]

  would quote just work because they would be better they would they would be more stable they would be more intuitive [TS]

  that everything would work better. Then in the in the P.C. [TS]

  World [TS]

  and in the last few years this has crumbled so far that I don't necessarily think we I mean the species have gotten [TS]

  really bad or no I haven't used them in a while [TS]

  but I think the Apple platform no longer has that that highground nearly as much as it used to if if it still has it [TS]

  all. [TS]

  Maybe not in the application space in the space like and I know a lot of people complain about somebody [TS]

  but you know like I said through like I upgrade all my machines sooner and sooner or later [TS]

  and I have great everything and it's just been remarkably problem free. I was eight not so much which is where. [TS]

  Because they're like more important platform. I was it was super buggy for me I still occasionally can't copy the U.R.L. [TS]

  and Paste it into another application I have no idea why I might one now has me insane [TS]

  and no I don't have one password installed and no I don't have any custom keywords installed mysterious [TS]

  but I think that there are less you know. [TS]

  Oh I spent at least those guys are doing a good job I mean you can starve you about whether they want to you really are [TS]

  this is stuff but then you look at their application software that's not part of the O. S. [TS]

  Any applications over the non-profit Yes I think this came up on one of our progress in the past it was like Name an [TS]

  Apple application that like that I could win [TS]

  and that that is it is an example apple to apple design award for people who don't know there is a shining example of [TS]

  what it's like to be an automatic application. [TS]

  Name one that's not bundled with the OS and that used to be pretty easy to do. [TS]

  Like the whole I like it was pretty amazing it's like you know they are the original version [TS]

  and I thought this is an amazing application. [TS]

  Now I don't think anyone said that about i Phone no mo save anything I work suite like I don't think Apple is leading [TS]

  in software. By saying if you are awesome. These are the kind of mac apps you would make. [TS]

  All right thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week Squarespace Harries and Lynda dot com [TS]

  and we will see you next week. [TS]

  Now this show is older than me to be an accidental accidental death was accidental [TS]

  and she is now sitting down as I said to that list and the. [TS]

  There are you going to snore s'more Now Casey I didn't want to put this in a control [TS]

  or prerogative that we spend the time but every time I talk about control of stuff that we're broken troll [TS]

  or people keep coming out and saying what was wrong with you you broke a drawer. [TS]

  Why do you keep saying bad things about the way you've broken doll [TS]

  and I know many times that I talked about what I don't like about you to have heard it before right. [TS]

  I'm sure I have but I don't remember which now I'm giving you giving you the excuse to TELL ME MORE. [TS]

  Remember I put links in the chat room so people can look at them the way you probably go [TS]

  and the games you control I guess in the way you probably go it if you look at it in your hand you like oh like like [TS]

  any Nintendo peripheral they make solid hardware in that like not to say it indestructible but it's pretty darn tough. [TS]

  Like it feels like a solid thing. [TS]

  You can abuse it it does not fall apart in general [TS]

  and it was really good in their meetings on harbor so this feels like a solid product [TS]

  but the problems with US are the same [TS]

  and if you listen to my head I know Woodstock link link the hypercritical episodes a couple times to ever go to those I [TS]

  talked about video game in trailers. [TS]

  The main problem with the broken troll is that the the right thumbstick is the place where the button should be sort of [TS]

  the primary control OK. Oh yes yes you have talked about this. [TS]

  Yes And just in reverse now if you if you use two six shooters maybe [TS]

  but even then I like the Tiger surrounds of the stakes and they have rounds around. [TS]

  I don't like having uniform buttons that are all the same size laid out in a diamond pattern because not everybody is [TS]

  equally important in games most have a main button in the secondary but encourage Cheri buttons. [TS]

  And doesn't feel comfortable. [TS]

  So like it's you know almost every way the controller can can be inferior to the game controller it is except the D. [TS]

  Pad which is much better and the triggers are probably better to and the build quality is maybe a little bit. [TS]

  It looks a little bit higher and the glossy finish on top or whatever [TS]

  and of course it's wireless in the US be chargeable and all that modern technology type stuff [TS]

  but now that's why I don't like the way you've broken TROY That's why nobody likes to be perfect. [TS]

  That's right nobody an entire universe what I'm saying is there's not a single person in the world like that where you [TS]

  program trolls or even it's designer doesn't like it as right [TS]

  and the mother of the design of my please email John I was every time I say that I don't like like wait a second are [TS]

  you saying that nobody likes a control I like I had a pony you know that reference. [TS]

  No no that's OK I gotta say I guess over games you enjoy life out of a culture that I saw [TS]

  but I think you tweeted a picture of it. [TS]

  Minton box Well it's in box anyway the box is moment and point as hasn't been opened. [TS]

  How much that cost is not that much two hundred bucks. [TS]

  No I don't think they were just two hundred dollars out of my phone. [TS]

  What courses await you know which is what you get what you want. [TS]

  No I got the phone that everyone gets sixty four black space grey please. Right yeah. [TS]

  Are you going to do case I already have the case is already here. [TS]

  The phone is not the kind of life the black leather case you have exactly my phone or will have exactly my phone [TS]

  and mine. I considered getting a red one but I just kinda the case the colored cases do not wear gracefully. [TS]

  I definitely love the case. [TS]

  Like I I definitely think you're making the right move getting the case and I question whether making getting a six [TS]

  but no one said it instead of a six plus instead of a five S. [TS]

  Now c'mon I'm going to finally buy an iphone after like you know six years I'm going. [TS]

  By generational law not going to happen. I had one for a week I know what I'm getting into it I had to be surprised. [TS]

  All right that's fair. [TS]

  So Marco if you were to buy a new phone tomorrow this success is out and you can get it in in four [TS]

  or four point whatever inches What are you buying that would. [TS]

  So does the smaller one have the same cameras the bigger one. [TS]

  Sure it's identical in every way except that it's physically smaller battery life. [TS]

  We'll call it a quick one because the screen is so much smaller and smaller. [TS]

  I think of this is that I still just drastically prefer the feel in the hand of the five S. [TS]

  but Golly I am getting nice a new screen and I am liking it. [TS]

  Oh I like it when I'm using it unless I'm using it one handed like while walking around doing something [TS]

  and unfortunately that's a pretty major role of a phone for most people so I just really it's like getting a seven [TS]

  hundred have a care pro it's like. [TS]

  Like it seemed like a good idea if you park it at a desk most of the time [TS]

  and don't bring it with you most of the time but if you're carrying it with you back [TS]

  and forth to work in a backpack every single day you might regret that decision. [TS]

  That might not be the best choice for you with a phone it's like you have to consider how it's actually used [TS]

  and yes a bigger screen is nicer while it's being used like two handed you know it's stationary it is indeed nicer [TS]

  but is it worth the tradeoff in portability in the sense that it makes it harder to use while portable for a lot of [TS]

  people and obviously that's an individual decision for people who are going back to the five S. [TS]

  or Who are still using the five S. and Not upgrading. [TS]

  I totally get that decision I totally respect that decision [TS]

  and I've almost made that decision I think I will ultimately stick with the six but I [TS]

  and I have come very close to going back to the five S. [TS]

  Because every time I pick it up I think not only does it look way better but it just feels so much better to use. [TS]

  And yes it does look tiny but everything I do is a million times faster. My group is more secure. [TS]

  I can reach everything it's in it's less frustrating to the fact is as I said earlier i O S [TS]

  and I was apps are still largely designed with the assumption that you can always reach all four corners. [TS]

  So many important buttons are up on the upper corners that are hard to reach on a six [TS]

  and that maybe over time that changes but we're not there yet. [TS]

  Both in the OAS and all the apps and it's going to be a while. [TS]

  So I think in the future this might be easier to use a larger phone because like the software will be it will be more [TS]

  you know finger local in a lot of ways. [TS]

  It will it will assume that your only hold in the bottom two thirds of the phone. [TS]

  But until that point and that point is not here yet this you know and again and when the watch comes and when you [TS]

  when your phone is less often needed to be used one handed you know if you can do certain things in the watch that [TS]

  would previously take your phone in your pocket to do while walking somewhere [TS]

  or doing something then again that will also help. But we're not there yet either. [TS]

  So I think for this year it makes sense for a lot of people who are sensitive to this to not upgrade at the six [TS]

  and then maybe next year we'll see what happens you know as as the environment around it changes as we get the watch as [TS]

  we get different software considerations. We'll see what happens but as of today I think it's a tough call. [TS]

  Well if you consider the rumored mix of six and six plus I don't know this is a rumor or announce [TS]

  but I've seen numbers thrown around that make the mix of six [TS]

  and six Plus look WAY closer to fifty fifty I ever thought it would be. [TS]

  Do you know any sources of authority or numbers or have heard similar rumors. I haven't anybody with any credibility. [TS]

  I forget where I thought I mean I'm assuming I sort of like maybe a Simco [TS]

  or maybe some related thing I don't know I don't know if the lover tells them next [TS]

  but we're pretty confident they say is that I think we would have heard a story if it turned out the five S. [TS]

  Was like selling. [TS]

  Massively you know like the people weren't getting the sex that that all the hardcore people are buying five Ss [TS]

  and it was just a crazy I mean and the thing against the five S. [TS]

  Now is not so much just that it's older and slower but also no Apple Pay right known and of C. [TS]

  and So if Apple does continue to make a smaller line which stops for grabs for they do if they gave it feature parity [TS]

  then it would be like the i Pads where last year despite the size if you had three sizes to pick from they would have [TS]

  really covered pretty much every base you can imagine. [TS]

  Well and the Apple pay again that's another thing where you have to look [TS]

  and say well it's you know Apple has just launched it is still not supported widely yet you know in a year from now [TS]

  then a lot of like a lot of American places will of will replace their terminals at the new tuxes terminals [TS]

  and everything so you have more that like I feel like over time the usefulness of the larger phones will grow. [TS]

  But today it's more of a tough call. [TS]

  That also being said all of this is not to say they won't sell well [TS]

  or that they aren't selling well it's just like the T.V. [TS]

  In the store bright picture problem like people are going to buy these things in large numbers regardless of whether [TS]

  they're actually easy easy or better to use than the smaller ones. [TS]

  We're doing this is pent up demand of people who knew that and wanted a bigger phone. [TS]

  Oh yeah you know like like they knew it was like they were speculating like I think I might like a better phone [TS]

  or like maybe they were coming from a bigger phone [TS]

  and there's like I would buy the i Phone except if you Smaug the whole reason they needed a bigger phone so I you know [TS]

  the number probably read them to be in a chat room said the team mobile C.E.O. Said it was close to fifty fifty. [TS]

  Obviously he can only report on his own sales [TS]

  but if that's true we try to find a link to it that is that is always one data point. [TS]

  Yeah I mean who knows what the truth is I think you're right that we'll probably never know I do think it would be [TS]

  interesting if you know if a large apps with analytics packages they could start tracking things you know [TS]

  or large analytics company like they start publishing. [TS]

  Like what you know what is flirty say you know what percentage of that they're installed on is this versus this model [TS]

  like that we can definitely will get will have that information and we know if we don't already have it. [TS]

  But again I think we're going to do fine with this and that's fine and in the future I might be better to use them [TS]

  but that doesn't make it doesn't these large phones a great solution today for a lot of priorities [TS]

  and look a lot of people are very happy with them a lot of people love these things. [TS]

  I was even one of the people saying I want bigger phone and I jump to get one as soon as I could [TS]

  but maybe maybe there's a better point between four point zero [TS]

  and four point seven That's a pretty big range you know it may be maybe a four point three would be great you know you [TS]

  get a little more space. [TS]

  I don't [TS]

  and I don't for four four point seven is the compromise I like shaving into they're going to be like you know you [TS]

  didn't bigger hands. [TS]

  So it comes down to you know just upgrade them next year contract with my week with the with the six years I think what [TS]

  happened was that I just upgraded my hand motions I upgraded my little hand genetics [TS]

  and you hold the phone differently than everybody else in the world. [TS]

  Well you know the moves you do to to get to the party activists like you said the software just isn't updated I'm using [TS]

  apps that were made for at best the i Phone five screen and at worst you know the smaller three point five inch [TS]

  and I upgraded my my hand moves so much so that oh I mean I got a smaller one I would find myself starting to do the [TS]

  hand move that I need to do to hit the Done button and Twitter if I can realize I don't need to do that move. [TS]

  I can go back to my other move to do you know I think that will mostly take care of itself [TS]

  but I like the reason I think I'm not bothered by this because once I sort of upgrade all my you know my hands move set [TS]

  then it's fine I mean I think the only persistent bothersome thing about the i Phone six [TS]

  or eight was how much room it took out took in whatever pocket I had it in because that didn't go. [TS]

  Yeah I could always felt like it was bigger. [TS]

  It was more it was taking up more if I put in my friend's jeans pocket is more likely to feel. [TS]

  Under stress if I sat down on a pair [TS]

  and bending it is in my coat pocket it pokes out a little bit farther than the other one did [TS]

  but that I think we're going over because I really do use mine more like a little mini tablet. [TS]

  So do you think that will ever come a time that if you think back to the tweenie days Polder refresh wasn't a thing [TS]

  and then learned Richter did it with Tweedy and then it became a thing where it literally became a system level thing. [TS]

  So do you think there may come a time where I.O.'s transitions to a back button at the bottom of the screen kind of [TS]

  layout be it because some popular applique Tweetie doesn't everyone embraces it or perhaps because the S.T.K. [TS]

  Changes and suddenly tab bars at the top enjoyed style [TS]

  and back buttons at the bottom do you think that would ever happen. [TS]

  I think they're going for the you know the system back gesture like that's their attempt to say yes you know paradigm [TS]

  for navigation instead of having a tool bar that you have to reach back button is really hard to find. [TS]

  Do the systems [TS]

  but I think that swipe is I know I almost never do it it is not obvious even if you show somebody else they don't know [TS]

  I do it all the time. [TS]

  Yeah I just pretty much almost never do it [TS]

  and I don't think it's type of thing that if you show somebody they will do all the time because it's not reliable [TS]

  depends on which application using whether it works or not and it's it is a fairly precise gesture. [TS]

  It's not there's not a lot of slop on it because if you just do a swipe sideways that may do something [TS]

  but it's not the back one that has to involve the edges like I think is too much nuance to it so I think what you're [TS]

  saying Casey is more likely that application developers will especially of the six plus [TS]

  and that they like super popular they'll have to redesign their applications to be inside like the thumb the thumb hot [TS]

  zone like where you can reach where you know put everything that's important within reach [TS]

  and then suddenly the phone doesn't feel as big anymore because the apps are designed not to have you do that [TS]

  and whatever paradigm. [TS]

  It is that the does that weather is moving everything to the bottom [TS]

  or you know I remain I don't know what the solutions are to reachability that we nodded That's like a hack that I'm [TS]

  sure a few people might use but that's not the best solution. Yeah I am hoping that the U.I. [TS]

  Is a redesign themselves [TS]

  and we standardize on you know is novel doing it even if just like you know the hamburger buns thing which Apple is not [TS]

  popular as imagine like you said pull the refresh you know come out of the third party world [TS]

  and have it be some kind of consensus and have all the applicants are to look the same in the world [TS]

  and that's that's plausible. Now in other news Marco have you played with your retina. I'm back at all. [TS]

  Yamuna right now. Oh and yeah I've been using a full time for about two days. [TS]

  Oh I did realize and things are amazing or whatever. Oh my God it's amazing. [TS]

  Good oh my god it's yeah it's amazing there's so there's actually a few things that I'm that I've had to change as a [TS]

  result of going to retina that are very very boring so I want to tell you about them. [TS]

  So the first thing is that's that's fair. [TS]

  So as there are no as with you some of the stuff this is also a pretty assembly. [TS]

  So as John has pointed out you know somebody takes cues from the desktop wallpaper to do most of it's blurriness so [TS]

  please email john with the details of how I got that wrong. [TS]

  So the problem is before for years I've used just like a static like medium gray background [TS]

  and I've put a whole bunch of crap my desktop now you know I see them in the desktop it's John's disaster scenario it's [TS]

  like everything is in the desktop and Yosemite if you have a solid color desktop it has some drab dark color. [TS]

  Many windows wilt will pick it up in some little way and just look terrible. [TS]

  You know you've had these awful I mean John you saw this right [TS]

  and you testing in the you know I can do my back going to work as a pest pumpkins pumpkins are nice [TS]

  and beautiful in orange but they make everything look terribly sick and rusty. Well. [TS]

  Like like you can't just do a solid color a flat color background even that because even the flat color backgrounds now [TS]

  will make a many things you somebody look terrible. [TS]

  If you want to if you want to get away from this effect use a background that has an awful white colors in it like if [TS]

  it has like blue sky with fluffy white clouds your menu bar will look sane. [TS]

  And most of your windows [TS]

  and menus will look that crazy maybe maybe though it looks like the color temperature on your monitor is off because [TS]

  it'll be a little bit blue. [TS]

  That's what that's what I have here at home I have to get some background that has a white sky with all the counts [TS]

  moving up the top of my menu bar looks OK and the menus I pull down from it was a little blue [TS]

  but like the Something about anything it's like brown [TS]

  or green it just it just makes the whole interest look sick like it's like a cow syndrome [TS]

  or for your mac funny that you mention that. [TS]

  So basically I have I tried a few a few different things [TS]

  and what I've come to is I started using the wallpaper I've been using on my retina my pro Pro since I got it in twenty [TS]

  twelve which is a bright sky blue photo I took in New Zealand of the bright sun lit sky and a bright blue ocean [TS]

  and so it is nice like sunny bright blue picture and it's crisp and looks amazing on the retina resolution. [TS]

  It's fantastic for this purpose because it is it works with everything as you said like you know a light blue color is [TS]

  great for this. I also then had to declare my desktop because look terrible is covered in the files. [TS]

  And even they change the i Tunes icon. [TS]

  They also change the file like if you have an M P three get the i Tunes file icon so it all sons have everything [TS]

  and I used to have a blue dot on it as a big shining red Japanese flag all of you to stop. Yeah so it's. [TS]

  So I clean up my desktop like that had to change also because that was part of it. [TS]

  Also my my monospaced font had to change because I was a monocle hold out all those years I was doing Monaco not anti [TS]

  aliased on my desktop. [TS]

  In council ATA I haven't tried that yet so right now I'm on Menlo because I basically inherited what I've been doing [TS]

  them on my retina laptops [TS]

  and that existed so I remember I went from Monaco ten men little eleven I had to go up a size also [TS]

  and part of that is because of the just looks better on retina and part of that is because I'm going. [TS]

  I went from a thirty inch screen to a twenty seven so I have a a decrease in the size of elements on screen because the [TS]

  same the same point with [TS]

  but three inches smaller diagonal so it actually is like everything is noticeably a little bit smaller. [TS]

  But other so so I actually like I'm fitting less per line in Xcode after change when line wrap settings [TS]

  and adjust my standards and everything on the same point with a thirty inch. Yeah twenty five sixty. [TS]

  Really you know it will be shorter vertically but horizontal got a marriage. [TS]

  Yeah yeah I've been I've been thinking about what I'm going to go to because I'm also a bit mad Monica Hall that I'm [TS]

  still on that map on a go and I'm Bob if they want to go right now that is not tenable any more thought to make it fun. [TS]

  You're a nine. Well I was always ten. [TS]

  Monica Monica nine has been my five hard core since this is the old days [TS]

  when lower case Allen Cavil I looked exactly the same [TS]

  but I have a hard core Monica nine years there's been a that's been the biggest difference like so like you know now [TS]

  I'm basically using like this this like clean wallpapered beach scene computer with all these big smooth fonts on it [TS]

  compared to my old like super geek Monaco pixel font but I got used to it very quickly [TS]

  and then so so to find that arrived today and I've been I've been back and forth her computer setting it up [TS]

  and going from her old computer to her new one I keep having to briefly use her twenty seven inch thunderbolt display [TS]

  which is of course a non retina the same size very similar finish to macro is less glossy but it's still reflective. [TS]

  Just you know less so. [TS]

  Same size same pixel dimensions [TS]

  and the twenty seventh on a boat is no slouch it's a very good looking monitor like my old my big thirty inch H.P. [TS]

  Mediocre model. [TS]

  You're always had you know far more drab colors and you know worse contrasts [TS]

  and everything then this awesome little twenty seven a certificate. [TS]

  Well now that I was using the retina for I was using it for one day and I go to see his monitor [TS]

  and it just looks like complete garbage like you see every pixel. [TS]

  It's like it looks like you're going back to DOS like it's it you can't believe how much worse it looks like once once [TS]

  every screen you see all day is retina. When you see that in one hundred no one it is shocking. [TS]

  Like it's a it's a big big difference. So yeah that's how it's going I'm loving it it's great. [TS]

  There is fan noise not in not in most workloads but if you if you stress the C.P.U. [TS]

  Use for more than about a minute or so like of using handbrake to go to video [TS]

  or something like that if you match all the C.P.U.'s for more than about a minute you will hear the fan spin up [TS]

  and I would say the overall noise level is similar to the Retina MacBook Pro [TS]

  when it spun up so it's like a nice kind of like medium. [TS]

  It sounds more like white noise than the old fans like cases [TS]

  and sounds more like white noise it has the essential blade I assume to do that. [TS]

  But and it is it is not I would not call it loud but you do definitely hear it. [TS]

  And it it is I would say it's very similar to that to the finish right of my pro under full load. So it's finite. [TS]

  I'll see in practice over time if that ends up being a problem while recording this pod cast I've been monitoring the [TS]

  fan speed [TS]

  and it has not gone above its idle speed during this entire time so I'm not worried about things like this being a [TS]

  problem. We'll see what happens. [TS]

  You know if I have to encode a bunch of video or something with it it's the reality is I need C.P.U. [TS]

  Speed but I usually need it in short bursts like compiling an X. [TS]

  Code or encoding the M P three for the show like I need it in short. [TS]

  First and so I don't think the fan noise is ever really going to be a huge problem for me [TS]

  but I'll see what happens like this. [TS]

  This might be the one factor that in two years makes me want a new macro that can drive the new five case analytically [TS]

  but we'll see. For now I'm very very happy with this. IMAX or everyone. [TS]

  Some like that but also for I really do start snowing. How are you still awake on time. [TS]

  I am absolutely dying from honest it should be less of a hardship for you because day [TS]

  and night to cease to have all meaning and this should be just like if we were doing it at like eleven A.M. [TS]

  In the morning. [TS]