The Accidental Tech Podcast

95: The Bear Wakes Up and Bites You

 

  Like everything in life it is one F.N. [TS]

  Take command but it will take you three hours to figure out what that command actually is. [TS]

  Yeah yeah right so you want to do a little follow up. [TS]

  Follow suit as I said that I was like oh God that sounded a lot like the prom just the way you said it I know. [TS]

  All right let's do that again. You see I want to do a little bit of follow up follow not to do that again. [TS]

  Got was the worst All right something else talk don't don't phrase it as a question Casey. Let's do some follow up. [TS]

  See you're right that's the key. [TS]

  Johnny's of smart anyway so let's talk about across the road and purchases in top grossing lists [TS]

  and I'm not sure which one of you put that's in the show notes but it was not me it was me. [TS]

  We're talking about the financial prospects across the road indirectly talking about the financial prospects and Joe F. [TS]

  Two it was one of first people to tweet that we're looking at a top grossing lists. [TS]

  He says those ads won't show up as part of the top grossing only in out purchases well [TS]

  and I think it's also because that they appear to be third party ads [TS]

  and not ads to ramp alliances them I don't know if you did like Popeye ads that would contribute to top grossing But [TS]

  certainly if you're getting paid through a third party for the ads in your thing that have all contributed. [TS]

  Well it's interesting that Apple doesn't as far as I know asked for a thirty percent cut of ads that you run that are [TS]

  not the rabble. [TS]

  He actually kind of surprise they allow that at all I think the only reason they do is because people were doing ads in [TS]

  their ad before I had existed and then [TS]

  and I think Apple's doesn't really care that much about I had to really force that to be the case [TS]

  but yeah it is kind of weird like you can't do a third party credit card processing thing for purchase [TS]

  but they allow you to have their party ads. Again it doesn't make a lot of sense. [TS]

  Not that that ever happens with Apple in their rules [TS]

  and then would you like to talk about our friend of the show Steve Leung. What he had to tell us. [TS]

  Yes Shortly after we recorded last week's show we talked a lot of our crosser oddness Montenegran strategy the game has [TS]

  changed a little bit of a conservation strategy [TS]

  and Steve wrote in with one aspect of that if you could buy they call a coin double [TS]

  or you get your earned coins at a faster rate and you get a bonus one thousand coins for three ninety nine. [TS]

  That's buying the piggy bank so there is something that doesn't change the game play [TS]

  and you know sort of getting an extra life or walking on water or a slowing down time when the train is coming [TS]

  or is like that it changes the monetization changes parts of the game that are part of monetization So [TS]

  when I saw This Is It OK this is you know this is like a power up earn coins faster right. [TS]

  But what can you do with those coins. [TS]

  You just you know using them to get more chances at the gumball machine to get you characters [TS]

  and that's one thing we didn't mention Alaska speaking of the characters is that the gumball machine is random [TS]

  and it doesn't care like any gumball machine doesn't care what things you already have. [TS]

  So as you accumulate players in the gumball machine you want to get a duplicate. [TS]

  You know like you know you get another crazy old Ben for the fifteenth time so it's not like you're going to inevitably [TS]

  get all the characters and I don't even know if the GO machine [TS]

  and all the characters some of them may be purchased only that there's a bunch of new characters that added a thing [TS]

  where you can try out a new character for a short period of time [TS]

  and at the end of that time that you buy at a discounted rate all sorts of new things are showing up an update to the [TS]

  thing they had they're further emphasizing the the thing that was always there I think a little share she'd let you [TS]

  share like a screenshot of your score on your death. [TS]

  Now that is much more prominent makes you notice that it's either more prominent [TS]

  or didn't exist before I certainly didn't even know existed for it I'm not looking for a Share button [TS]

  and now it's more in my face and not only do I see it in the game but I see things that other people post. [TS]

  So anyway the month is ation strategy across the road is fluid [TS]

  and is moving more towards things that are slightly more aggressive about getting you to buy. [TS]

  Then it was before [TS]

  and I don't think that's because the developer is desperate for money because all of these things are still pretty mild [TS]

  in the grand scheme of things they're not there they're not punitive it's still entirely you know for fun [TS]

  and not you know pay to win type of gameplay style. [TS]

  You know even with the coin door but nothing affects the actual game which is avoiding being hit by cars [TS]

  and falling in the water and being hit by trains. [TS]

  If it ever makes that turn I'm sure we'll noted on the program [TS]

  but I'm pretty confident now especially with ingress your climb the charts that they're doing just fine with this game. [TS]

  Yeah in fact I mean it's been a pretty big difference so in I would say the changes they're making are working to bring [TS]

  them more money because they've made a pretty large jump in the top grossing chart since last week like [TS]

  when we were talking they were somewhere around the two hundred range of top grossing [TS]

  and now they're like in the sixty's. [TS]

  So they whatever they're doing you know changes are making are working to bring them in more money that's more personal [TS]

  to the actual damage. [TS]

  I don't know the timing though I don't know if they started climbing the charts before [TS]

  or after they rolled out these changes I don't know the specifics so it could just be you know gaining traction from [TS]

  word of mouth and you know it's hard to say I know it's still a good game is still trying it out. [TS]

  Tip is now totally hooked [TS]

  and cover an M Earlier you know that you for continuing to move your score forward to pastors I just I just stopped [TS]

  moving and for once I became the number one in my game central aside my son's garbage Asian store [TS]

  and I really played so much going to so what is your current score. [TS]

  My score as depressing as I was trying to be Jason's girl I got you know I couldn't get him to accept my son's friend [TS]

  requests so that I can maybe demonic something that someone who is who are you know would be about as some like to beat [TS]

  it. [TS]

  And this girl was like one ninety three and I got one ninety one and I had that for a while [TS]

  and then I want I need to have that for a while and there's nothing worse than than seeing yourself die [TS]

  when you're like one of them. [TS]

  Pop away from tie into heart and and then eventually got to sixteen and I'm depressed to sixteen because [TS]

  when I got to sixteen my death a super stupid I just got I was just so happy that I had one I was like OK now I don't [TS]

  mean to go any farther I could've done much for others. Stupid death. [TS]

  So I'm kind of all thought of going back does it go golfing. [TS]

  Yeah whatever I thought and tried that one but I am enjoying cross the road more than I probably should. [TS]

  That is a good game so we should probably talk about what Daniel jacket said about push notification spam filtering [TS]

  Marco did you get a chance to read this earlier today. I read this ten minutes ago yet so what. [TS]

  Well we were talking about last episode [TS]

  and what Daniel was kind of replying to was what especially mark of a talked about with regard to push notification [TS]

  spam and and how the three of us really didn't come up with a terribly awesome way for Apple to filter the spam [TS]

  or take action on the spam [TS]

  and so one of the things we talked about was well maybe we could they could in list users to to help filter the spam [TS]

  and notify apple of it and so did you an interesting point I'm going to read from this post on the show notes. [TS]

  Apple can still use its unique role as the Creator of All Things I was to devise a system through which they would [TS]

  themselves be virtually subscribed to all unremarkable notifications from a particular apps developer. [TS]

  Think about the worst of the patient's name you've seen in my experience it's not super personalized In fact it's [TS]

  liable to be in use meant to keep using the app to dance in a game to become more engaged. [TS]

  Cetera I think Apple would collect a ton of useful information about spammy developers if they simply arranged that [TS]

  every app on this app store is capable of sending push notifications included among its list of registered devices. [TS]

  A pseudo device in Cupertino whose sole purpose was to receive notification scan for spammy keywords apply Beason [TS]

  filters [TS]

  and flag questionable questionable developers I think is a really good idea that seems like the hardest crap to put [TS]

  together but it is a very interesting point I mean when you are in control of the entire ecosystem. [TS]

  You probably can get away with doing something like that but and I was curious to hear what you guys thought. [TS]

  So it's a really good idea. [TS]

  You know so early in the post is like one of the problems is they can just run these kind of filter server side because [TS]

  everything's encrypted end to end. [TS]

  So in order to see the content of a message you have to be one of the recipients of the message. [TS]

  And and that's that's actually not entirely true. [TS]

  When you when you send a push notification request you send it over S.S.L. [TS]

  but The server on the other side has a degree and you're sending a Jason dictionary. [TS]

  So if your server is not encrypted data separately from S.S.L. [TS]

  You know that that intrusion is happening after it gets into Apple's hands so it's a Didn't sumption early on is [TS]

  actually not correct that they could be doing the server side if they wanted to without have been like at this big sort [TS]

  of device. I think it's two problems with that. Number one it would have to. [TS]

  It would almost certainly be abused and worked around very quickly. [TS]

  For instance developers could start using different schemes or friends in the background [TS]

  or refreshed you can just send whatever you want as the payload of a silent notification for back and refresh. [TS]

  That doesn't show anything in text to the user then you can have your app generate a local notification based on [TS]

  whatever you want that says whatever you want from that. That's actually how I said all of mine. [TS]

  All everyday every overpass notification is Message List it is a content available out of acacia [TS]

  and then the app wakes up performs a sink [TS]

  and then for any new episode it finds it shows on a vacation from their title. [TS]

  So all of the text that is being shown to the user input on a vacation is not going through Apple servers [TS]

  and will require the app to be launched to generate [TS]

  and of course you know developers would very quickly work around this kind of system if it was in place they would you [TS]

  know just they would show the text in different ways they would respond. [TS]

  Respond to sounds of occasions are they would you know encrypt the messages [TS]

  and you cut them with a custom scheme with the app or whatever so that that method wouldn't entirely work. [TS]

  What what would work better [TS]

  and what would actually be a prerequisite to having the kind of set up it all is if Apple cared. [TS]

  That's the biggest problem here is that it really really seems like Apple doesn't care about this problem by their [TS]

  complete inaction and complete seeming seeming inability and unwillingness to enforce this rule [TS]

  and then to even break it themselves up with one of their teens. [TS]

  I think it's very clear that Apple simply doesn't think this is a problem because [TS]

  when Apple thinks something is a problem it tends to get attention it tends to get addressed. [TS]

  And then [TS]

  when Apple you know Apple has kind of this tunnel vision sometimes where whatever they care about whatever the hot [TS]

  thing is at that moment it gets this laser focus. [TS]

  They do crazy things it gets remade or gets massive progress made on it [TS]

  and then it gets left alone untouched for ten years [TS]

  and I think this is one of those things where like like this is an area of the App Store that they just don't care [TS]

  about like much of the App Store honestly I mean most of the after does not see rapid change the policies sure don't [TS]

  and I think it is very clear this is a problem this is a problem to two dicks like us [TS]

  and people who are as picky as me [TS]

  but Apple does not think this is a problem because if they thought it was a problem they would be doing more to enforce [TS]

  the rule. [TS]

  And they're not I think of another reason why Java pro solution ignoring encryption ignoring fake looking for good [TS]

  stuff like that even if all the old workarounds didn't exist you would still this would still require Apple to do two [TS]

  things one thing that Apple doesn't like to do [TS]

  and one thing that very good at the thing they don't like to do is this will require them to essentially log all person [TS]

  out of occasions and or store them in some. [TS]

  Way so that you could verify that they were sent for some you know they're at the store some window of time [TS]

  and the reason they're out to store them is because the second thing that I don't think they'd be very good at is [TS]

  figuring out of something is in violation of the guidelines by looking at the content. [TS]

  Computer wise you know spam detection and to do that well it's not easy to do that well [TS]

  and do it fast at the same time so I think a wash of all the traffic as it goes by categorize it as spam or not spam [TS]

  and then discard it because what if they got it wrong and they want to retrain their fellows [TS]

  or whatever so it had to be stored for some period of time. So you know is a good man the middle everything. [TS]

  Decrypt everything because they control the key servers and all those other stuff like undo all their And [TS]

  and corruption look at the content. [TS]

  Great now you're looking at all the push out of our [TS]

  and by the way simulate user activity so that you get the push notifications that are that are in response to you using [TS]

  application or not using the application [TS]

  or having used it within a certain time have you know all the you have to do a hell of a lot to make a fake thing that [TS]

  behaves in a way that is sure to trigger all of the spammy push notifications. [TS]

  Then you're just left with a pile of push notifications that you have to look at [TS]

  and determine which ones are legitimate [TS]

  and that's hard for humans to do I mean Apple viewers can even determine if a map of the legitimate come in you're [TS]

  expecting a computer in a few milliseconds to figure out if a push notification is in violation of the no promotions [TS]

  rule. So that's why I keep going back to the only solution to this has to involve some kind of reporting by recipients. [TS]

  You know I have received the spam personification report this application or disable notifications [TS]

  and maybe you know I was trying to think of all less intrusive you eyes for doing this. [TS]

  That wouldn't bother regular people maybe when you turn off push notifications for an app. [TS]

  It may ask you if that him if that happened ever send you push notifications [TS]

  or if it's a new push notification recently like within the past five minutes I'm ask you Are you disable notifications [TS]

  because for one of these five reasons and you can say spam whatever. [TS]

  Like some kind of thing like that that only some nerd will see the heavily gated on the the thing that we all do which [TS]

  is something sends you notification you realize you forgot to turn off you merely go to system to system preferences [TS]

  for that hole they call an Iowa settings and figure I kind of can make them both places [TS]

  and you immediately go to turn it off and you know that I was going to take that sort of pattern [TS]

  and can throw up something that you know kind of like those annoying unsubscribe things like your successor into [TS]

  scribed uns is crap because you never answer the questions well if you're angry because something you spam. [TS]

  I know I would click the little things. [TS]

  Tap the little thing that says yeah I just disabled because I me an ad or something or was I going to add [TS]

  and I have tons of false positives and people are saying really are not occasions period [TS]

  but the volume of hundreds of millions of miles uses enough that you know they could do these in grass [TS]

  and say all right this looks like a spammy applets may be investigated [TS]

  and have five people week just run that up on their phones even send them in ads [TS]

  and you know you know the type you talk about is what I show. Apple has all the power here. [TS]

  They can totally stop this [TS]

  but they're not powerless to you know all they have to do like Margaret said it care about it a little bit [TS]

  and then like they they can at their leisure do almost anything. [TS]

  Almost any possible sort of end user solution really really lightweight [TS]

  and their volumes will make it such that will become super clear what the popular app that is spamming people is you're [TS]

  never going to get the obscure app that spank you look at Seven people have installed [TS]

  but you'll get the popular app that span people and then you send them a nice little note [TS]

  and say hey throughout the spam be able play maybe stop that and they will stop [TS]

  and if they don't they're out of the store it's just you know having having such incredible power of everything within [TS]

  the app stores is like there they're wasting it by not using it for good. [TS]

  Oh yeah I mean this is as we get into the after discussion I'm sure I'll bring this up again [TS]

  but there are so many areas in which they could use us for good for example the way the new Twitter app scans your old [TS]

  schemes and made. [TS]

  I don't know but they scan for the apps you have installed [TS]

  and they send that list of after you have installed to Twitter [TS]

  and Twitter uses that to advertise to you this is a pretty big privacy violation. [TS]

  People I generally expect because the way our west works in most ways is that apps are sandbox [TS]

  and can't read data from other apps they can't even see other apps they can't even tell what you have installed. [TS]

  Conceptually at least in practice there are two ways to tell if you have an app installed. [TS]

  One is if the app registers for any U.R.L. Schemes then you can check for those. [TS]

  What's one of the regs are not [TS]

  and the second is there's a low level some kind of such control function somewhat I don't know which one it is [TS]

  but there's a low level function to get the list of running process names [TS]

  and so if you are if you pull that list you know on a regular basis the chances are you're going to catch a lot of apps [TS]

  the user had installed in their currently running state. [TS]

  And so you will eventually build up a list of what I have installed based on the process names that function. [TS]

  I'm not sure there's a good reason for that to just an I O. S. or Two to return valid data. [TS]

  It wouldn't surprise me if in the future similar to the way that Apple basically removed the MAC address access from [TS]

  those low level system calls in Iowa I think seven that where they call is still there you can call it that is it just [TS]

  returns all zeros for a MAC address now so much of that I don't think there's a reason why I O. S. [TS]

  Needs this function to return valid process names to it to the app that's calling it. There's no ex P.C. [TS]

  That African trolled or anything like that so I there's a good reason please let us know. Once that's not out as works. [TS]

  Yeah I know that I don't I don't think there's a reason for that. [TS]

  But so I think privacy wise that's because like I think Apple should care about this problem because the IDE in the [TS]

  list of apps you have installed should be considered private. [TS]

  Private information personal information that any one app shouldn't be able to get a list of apps in your from your all [TS]

  schemes that's a trickier one. [TS]

  So some apps they have your own schemes in place for various workflow things you know there's various reasons why you [TS]

  want to have an publish your L. [TS]

  Scheme [TS]

  and if you're going to do that I guess it there's no real way around that around your app being discovered on the other [TS]

  hand is a lot of us that you're all schemes in place for other reasons like some a lot S.T.K. [TS]

  Thing the Facebook log in thing like some some plugin [TS]

  or component of your app requires some kind of work around like where it kicks you to some other app you sign in [TS]

  and it takes you back to back to your app and so you have to have your ask you to make that work [TS]

  and so a lot of apps have you're asking that really aren't using them for any other purpose besides that sort of thing. [TS]

  I was eight and the new extension system makes a whole lot of that unnecessary. [TS]

  So I would actually suggest and I say this as one of the designers of X. Callback your L. [TS]

  I would suggest that you or else schemes possibly be deprecated in the future [TS]

  and remove later after that I think there are better ways around that problem that they've designed and I was eight. [TS]

  If Apple's if Apple seems to think that it's OK for apps to have a list of ten thousand known your all schemes [TS]

  and scrape all your absence and to a server [TS]

  and advertise to you based on that which is what they're coming from permitting Twitter to do. [TS]

  If Apple things that's OK That's going to continue [TS]

  and that's going to be in every analytics package in every every scam e ad package for I O. S. [TS]

  and It's going to become very standard practice for apps to spy on your other apps [TS]

  and report those back to their their shady companies and that's really not good. [TS]

  I really don't like that at all and so I think as U.R.L. [TS]

  Schemes become dramatically less necessary with Iowa State may be the way forward is not to have them to remove that [TS]

  possible area of abuse. [TS]

  Secondarily Apple could just have a rule that they actually enforce that says you can't collect lists of apps from the. [TS]

  A device and Sunday a service like that could just be your rule. They don't seem to care though. [TS]

  Don't you get the feeling like again we have no visibility into whether anyone is actually thinking so we don't have to [TS]

  guess. [TS]

  Void information but that like this is tiered system in terms of developers externally you're all the same [TS]

  but internally to Apple. [TS]

  If the Twitter app starts doing something spammy Apple's reaction I would imagine is not to send a generic email from [TS]

  some person that says your apps going to be pulled into two weeks if you don't stop doing this like what they do to [TS]

  other people who you know. [TS]

  Instead someone at much higher level has a nice friendly phone call or someone higher level in Twitter [TS]

  and they have a discussion because Twitter one of they going to do pull the Twitter app. [TS]

  I mean yeah Benchley they would if there was some sort of actual disagreement I totally believe they would pull the [TS]

  trigger but you give him a little bit differently [TS]

  when you're Twitter I mean another pulled path for applying all your contacts and everything. [TS]

  But Pat that was not his biggest Twitter [TS]

  and Like I mean they're nice to everybody like they're it's not like they're mean to other people [TS]

  and nice to Twitter [TS]

  but I just get the feeling based on nothing other than seeing their actions externally without knowing what's going on [TS]

  in the box [TS]

  and maybe hearing a little bit about sort of the the treatment in who gets picked to you know come two weeks early [TS]

  and do a demo for a keynote or whatever. [TS]

  Not every not every developer three the same and I think this is appropriate in general [TS]

  but it goes against the sort of egalitarianism idealistic story of the App Store where you know anybody can play in all [TS]

  the rules are the same for everybody. Not quite. [TS]

  Doesn't seem like from the outside that it's quite the same for everybody so I don't have. [TS]

  For all we know Apple has already talking Twitter and say we really prefer you not to get a list of apps. [TS]

  It's not like we're going to play you from the store we know you have schedules just tell us that the next version [TS]

  you'll fix this and give us a rough timeline will say OK and we won't say anything about it publicly [TS]

  and everything will be fine. [TS]

  It's only plausible to me that that could be happening inside Apple but of course we don't know. [TS]

  So why don't you tell us about something we do know Marco. [TS]

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  So thanks a lot to ask you for sponsoring our show man buying health insurance does suck [TS]

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  All right so anyway so we're still not happy with the App Store are we mark or I thought we were past all this. [TS]

  I really did. [TS]

  You know there were there was a time when the App Store first came out and over the first couple of years it was out. [TS]

  We had a bunch of bumpy rejections from Apple figuring out its policy developers figure out what Apple wanted Apple at [TS]

  first being pretty bad about communicating their policies and then later getting less bad at it. [TS]

  Overall average view is a good idea. [TS]

  Overall I support preview and overall I think it has benefited customers and developers and Apple [TS]

  but there are still these dark patches and there are still a times when it seems like Apple is a little bit too. [TS]

  I wouldn't associate power hungry but but they seem to be too strictly or [TS]

  or overreaching in their rule enforcement in a way that doesn't seem to benefit anybody [TS]

  and possibly even including Apple that like they're not they're not soon looking out for any kind of clear user benefit. [TS]

  They're not like there's no major reason why this that we can see why Apple needs to enforce certain rules [TS]

  or want to enforce certain rules. And there are a lot of rules they enforce that are unwritten. [TS]

  And this is this is the biggest problem. [TS]

  One of them is that that's going on now with or any notification center widgets and there seems to be this disconnect. [TS]

  These are two different parts of Apple two very very distantly. Separated parts of Apple. [TS]

  So I want to do you have Craig Federighi and his organization making the software and making the S T k's [TS]

  and you know adding these great abilities to the lss but developer relations [TS]

  and all part of Alpha relations including after review are all very deeply infill Schiller's organization. [TS]

  So these are very separate parts of Apple and I think what we're seeing here. [TS]

  We've seen some speculation over the last couple days from a couple of blogs in fact I'm a protector remember Ben [TS]

  Thompson site trajectory. [TS]

  I'm I'm one of his premium members and and I like his daily updates [TS]

  and I highly recommend you daily updates they're extremely good he is one of the smartest writers on our business right [TS]

  now [TS]

  and he wrote one today saying you know saying along with a few others in the scene recently that it sure seems like maybe [TS]

  there's some friction here between Schiller's organization and Federal Reserve's ation [TS]

  and I don't know enough about to say more than that [TS]

  but I think looking from the outside it does certainly seem like these two different parts of Apple are not of the same [TS]

  page on everything and something something is going wrong there is some kind of friction or communication breakdown [TS]

  or different priorities something is going wrong there because we have the massive you know as we said this past summer [TS]

  at the B.B.C. [TS]

  The massive love letter to developers Apple basically had this this past summer saying look at all this great new stuff [TS]

  all these walls were lifting all these things you thought we'd never do what we did I'm all these these things you [TS]

  could never do now you can do them now months later after the stuff is out and in consumers' hands and the zero S. [TS]

  Is a rout and people actually start trying to do things with them. [TS]

  We're seeing so many problems and rejections from the app review side of things. [TS]

  Oh [TS]

  and by the way it's also a third division is the asteroid a Tauriel team which is under eighty Q So so you have the people [TS]

  who make the S. T. Ks the people who pick which. [TS]

  Our featured to be like great examples of what I should be doing [TS]

  and then the people making the policies of actually enforcing those rules those are all three different nations under [TS]

  three different as he is inside Apple [TS]

  and who apparently have different viewpoints on things I don't know if you could say that the development is on is in [TS]

  conflict with any of those you could say that preview and apps are on a Tauriel [TS]

  or at best just not communicating with each other and doing balancing things [TS]

  but engineering like their responsibility is in cooperation with whatever they're you know sort of product design thing [TS]

  or you know who are resigning with price going to do engineering jobs to do it you know implement it [TS]

  and maybe I don't know if the products on it under that umbrella but probably anyway they create the A.P. [TS]

  Eyes and every A.P.I. They create there some expectation is like we're just going to make something possible. [TS]

  But although you may be able to do a thing with these guys for example read all the contacts [TS]

  and email them to your server. [TS]

  Like the little maid that's not their fault [TS]

  or that you can do it like we're going to implement these features we're going to make them make features possible I [TS]

  don't know if you know I don't think that [TS]

  or you see that is as his responsibility to worry about you know whatever A.P.I. [TS]

  You make obviously some developer is going to use A.P.I. [TS]

  To do something that app or view is going to reject [TS]

  and that does not necessarily imply a conflict between Craig Federighi and the after you section of the organization. [TS]

  I don't think he would say that he that is has his role to make those decisions because there are no decisions he's [TS]

  there are features that they want developers to be able to add to their products that are made possible by his A.P.I. [TS]

  As there are also things that people can do with the engineering side makes that are going to be against Aberdeen [TS]

  and that is the way it's always been [TS]

  and it goes about like well I showed this to an engineer in the know in the labs that you see [TS]

  and I thought it was awesome. Yeah they probably do think about somebody again. [TS]

  They they know they're not in charge of after you. [TS]

  And they're excited to see someone do use maybe I do something cool but I'll [TS]

  but I still don't think that it implies a conflict between engineering [TS]

  and the organization I think the the I think they were sure is the embarrassing lack of communication between editorial [TS]

  and after a view in terms of promoting an application [TS]

  and pulling it while it's on under Promotion like that's just the type of thing that should happen. [TS]

  Those things communicate with each other better so there could be a conflict between [TS]

  and it's a natural like we're digs out here we like if something is possible [TS]

  and we can't think of a reason why we shouldn't do it. [TS]

  It should be allowed and that's sort of a a sort of Apple engineers mindset [TS]

  or a true engineers mindset of like you know all the Linux thing it was possible everyone should be allowed to do it [TS]

  it's free and working for all the Apple mindset if it's possible and if we think about it [TS]

  and we can't think of a reason to stop it then it should be possible it's oh it's probably true that if you were to [TS]

  poll the entire organization the vast majority of the people who work in engineering an apple would say yes that should [TS]

  be possible No I would never pull the peek out you know thing for bringing how good today view [TS]

  but I'm hesitant to turn it into a vice president versus vice president internal turf war type battle. [TS]

  Well yeah that's what I mean. [TS]

  I'm careful to say that it's one of the SEALs organizations I mean there's like we don't know if Schiller's involve [TS]

  these decisions personally or Federighi is mad about these decisions personally or anything [TS]

  but what we what we can clearly see is that these parts of Apple are are not working together correctly like [TS]

  and it's so bad it's leaking out that it's publicly visible I mean [TS]

  but do you think I don't know I think this is the correct working of engineering and have preview [TS]

  and that engineering makes the A.P.I. [TS]

  Snap of you decide if the things developers are using them for are allowed our complaint is that after view is making [TS]

  decisions that we don't agree with and they conflict with editorial. Yeah I am and I like that I could just. [TS]

  To chalk it up to a lack of communication. [TS]

  You know what that's a that's a pretty big thing because see [TS]

  and this is like this is coming at a particularly bad time for Apple because right now in this time you know late two [TS]

  thousand and fourteen the last left always twenty fourteen at the Apple Watch is coming out soon. [TS]

  I Pad sales are not that great is harder than ever to make money in the App Store and Android is a massive [TS]

  and register released a major update the whole paper thing whatever they call material design all like the Edward five [TS]

  oh that's actually getting pretty good reviews from people. [TS]

  So what we have is you know Apple is unfortunate all these rules they've been important to us for years [TS]

  and then they have this this crazy position of power because there were really no other place to go if you wanted to [TS]

  make any reasonable money developing atom and some people make money on Android you know it's possible to [TS]

  but it's it's historically been harder you know as as hard you think it is I was to make money it's historically been [TS]

  even harder on Android and a lot of things just weren't as good an android. [TS]

  But that gap is closing and I'm not sure I ever will close period. [TS]

  I don't think the willing time soon but it's a lot smaller than it's ever been before. [TS]

  Meanwhile at the exact same time you have this you have the i Pad not doing particularly well you know relative to how [TS]

  it was doing. [TS]

  You have immense competition in the App Store that drives prices way way down it makes it very hard to make any money [TS]

  and you have this new platform. [TS]

  The watch that you are expected to develop for in parallel [TS]

  and this is combining to make it a tougher sell than it previously has been to be an I O. S. [TS]

  Developer you have now more platforms you need to target. [TS]

  There's more work for you to do you have to do adaptive layout to make resizable life after that that ever ships like [TS]

  we talked about before. So there's more more work to be like a current up to date responsible I was develop. [TS]

  There's more more work than there are been before. [TS]

  The alternative of Android development is less bad than it used to be relative to I was development [TS]

  and you're making less money and I honestly haven't had before. [TS]

  This is not a good time for Apple to add more reasons for developers to become disillusioned with the platform. [TS]

  This is this is this is strategically a really terrible time for that because Apple needs fantastic developers to do [TS]

  two big things forward it needs good developers to push the boundaries to make the i Pad a better general computer [TS]

  device than it is and it needs developers to make great apps for this new watch coming out in the spring [TS]

  and on some level. [TS]

  There's always going to be more developers you can always say well there's more people waiting you know [TS]

  when you go to leave more people come in so you can be a fresh batch and like entertainment history [TS]

  or you know a lot of mysteries work that way. [TS]

  That's true but if you want the best developers making the best apps [TS]

  and if you want the boundaries to be pushed if you want you know what Apple said in interviews you see they said a [TS]

  number of occasions. [TS]

  We can't wait to see what you do with this stuff and then they see what we do with it [TS]

  and they tell us you can do half of that as long as you do or they want to do it. [TS]

  I mean they need good developers to push the boundaries and to make fantastic software that is sustainable [TS]

  and that takes advantage of the platform and the pushes it and makes it useful for people [TS]

  and it makes people buy their devices and stick with their ecosystem. [TS]

  They need us right now more than their actions say the big things that are in conflict is not that engineers conflict [TS]

  with any of the ninth inning parts but it's the broad trends with an apple in the sort of the post jobs there [TS]

  or is that in the recent in the recent years especially in this most recent year twenty fourteen engineering [TS]

  reorganization which as you know is gone through a lot of growing pains and change of leadership. [TS]

  Steve Jobs goes in for a stall go. [TS]

  Things are realigning they're new people and Johnny I was out of it [TS]

  and all that stuff all that rejiggering has culminated in an engineering organization that like you said Marco [TS]

  and I guess [TS]

  and my seven year view everything that engineer organization that does things that previously it had refused to do. [TS]

  But there have been widely you know desired by their constituent developers and indirectly by their customers. [TS]

  That is the overall trend in engineering the last year or so [TS]

  and as the result of all the I Have To You have to think it's a result of all these reorganization that whoever was [TS]

  opposing this is either not in power not in the company anymore or lost an argument right. [TS]

  And now suddenly engineering is doing things that are that are directly beneficial to developers [TS]

  and indirectly beneficial so far to customers who fester as one of these things too. [TS]

  Whereas after a view has not undergone as far as I know such an organizational change [TS]

  and is instead acting the way it has always acted sort of in cycles where a lot of time it's dormant and sleeping [TS]

  and then sometimes the bear wakes up and bites you. [TS]

  And we had the benefits of that you know it's gone cycles and why why is it awake now. Why sleeping other times. [TS]

  Hard to say [TS]

  but one thing you can say is it has not undergone the same friends a ration of the engineering organization has gone [TS]

  through its apps or is not suddenly letting in things that agree with [TS]

  and that it is not suddenly being more reasonable being more transparent and you know explaining itself better. [TS]

  Like the only thing you can say for the average organization is that they have cut down on wait times that consistently [TS]

  the trend has been you know don't have ridiculous wait times for the things with a few bumps in the road for like [TS]

  releases where the mac apps have to be delayed for a reason. [TS]

  Usually it's about a week still and it's it's you can you be able to say it's about a week for the last five years. [TS]

  Right so I do overall trend like if you look at the entire history the App Store is that they have moved that metric to [TS]

  be sort of better in a way the developers like and that indirectly benefits customers which is the same sort of yards. [TS]

  There was using an engineer and so it's all the more glaring [TS]

  when engineering is suddenly doing things that seem you know that ever orders that are noble [TS]

  and doing them in a cautious way doing them good outweigh the making positive progress. [TS]

  You know Iowa State is better for developers and Iowa seven was and back and so on [TS]

  and so forth whereas average viewer just does not seem to be making any progress [TS]

  and I don't I'm not familiar with the internal organization of Africa or that side of the organization. [TS]

  But if it has undergone any sort of transformation [TS]

  or a change in leadership that is the sort of parallels the engineering one I'm not aware of [TS]

  and if it hasn't undergone that then that entire organization looks like it looks to me like a typical corporate [TS]

  organization with people who are in power who are stubborn who are wrong and you can't be kind of right [TS]

  and you are stuck it's like well I disagree with you [TS]

  and I'm your boss the end the other interesting thing to go back just a half step to where the market was saying is [TS]

  that not only are developers feeling like we got a little bit of a bait and switch from W.D.C. [TS]

  Because I believe Marco you did I know I wrote a blog post on the way back from D.C. [TS]

  About how you know we finally got all the things we've been asking for we finally got all the things we wanted [TS]

  and you know it's so I don't remember who it was that said it first but it's like Lucy and [TS]

  and Charlie Brown with the football you know and so here it is we got all the things we want just getting And [TS]

  and so developers are obviously furious. [TS]

  But a lot of users that I speak to just regular people who are not developers they're getting more [TS]

  and more frustrated with Apple two it started with Apple Maps being crap in Google Maps not being available [TS]

  and then it continued to bug the i OS seven that all of a sudden looks different [TS]

  and people keep telling me how I was saying it is buggy and to be honest I haven't really had any particular issues. [TS]

  But that being said it seems like a lot of people I know who used to be really into the wall. [TS]

  Things Apple maybe aren't And and that's a tough place to be in so here it is. [TS]

  Apple is the it is in a position where they really shouldn't be pissing off their developers not only for the developer [TS]

  sake but also for users. [TS]

  Do you see any do you have actual Any non geeky user friends who talk to you about applications I use I like that the [TS]

  luster of Apple's on off are you talking about users who knows the transmit can send things to drive any no no no no [TS]

  the former where the last year that it how it's always infallible they always were [TS]

  but that luster goes in cycles too that's just a typical you know celebrity type build him up tear him down like I [TS]

  don't I don't attach anything particular to that because the cycle for that is practically yearly at this point. [TS]

  Yearly everybody loves Apple and yearly everybody hates it like it's beginning faster you know. Oh yeah. [TS]

  Although you know to be fair one thing that does definitely impact customers is [TS]

  when an app is approved with a certain feature they buy it they use that feature [TS]

  and then they have to remove that feature because of Apple's policy after the fact that's why I was asking I was asking [TS]

  if people if people notice that like do they read the release notes [TS]

  or they just get mad at the developers like to blame even land on Apple [TS]

  or do people do the type of features they get removed in that way are they below the notice of people because you know [TS]

  the feature that was removed from transmit. [TS]

  People who use transmitter already probably kind of geeky [TS]

  and maybe they really release notes I'm trying to think of it like a mass market example like the Facebook app could do [TS]

  something that everybody thought was great and then Apple removed it. [TS]

  Maybe that would get some notice but I have I have never heard any person [TS]

  or use I.O.'s complain to me that Apple's updates in the future is removed. [TS]

  I have but it was not at all because of Apple. [TS]

  Everyone I know is furious about you not being able to send messages in the standard Facebook app anymore [TS]

  and you have to download a different Facebook Messenger app in order to send messages. [TS]

  Now I remember that yes and I was [TS]

  and that blame landed on Facebook at all it was Facebook if they decide to split their own stuff out so whatever but. [TS]

  Oh yeah I guess they would notice that because that is a that's a sort of cutting application half and into two pieces. [TS]

  But for four features that are banned because of apps store rules I don't know. [TS]

  Like I mean I just may just be the people I come in contact. Not that big of a deal. [TS]

  Like again a lot of these issues are magnified for us because of the circles we travel [TS]

  and the apple is in its luster type thing is more likely a tertiary effect of what Barker was talking about where it's [TS]

  like Apple needs developers to help drive its platform forward and developers are trying to drive it forward [TS]

  and every time they go to you know take a step too far. Apple you know snaps the weapons as well. [TS]

  We're not that far but I wanted to make that too useful like what we had to think about for six months or nine months [TS]

  or we have something you really really think we could never ever do that so we're never going to let you do that. [TS]

  It's like how do you you become gun shy you become you know sort of the many many articles [TS]

  and developers expressing their reservations about using new A.P.I. [TS]

  It's like even in best case it's just like let's lay out this new A.B.I. [TS]

  For a year and see how many people invested it for a year and get there and projected [TS]

  and then maybe we'll get the lay of the land and sort of divine with chicken bones and other dice and stuff [TS]

  and figure out I think this will probably be OK We'll work on this Vic's month [TS]

  and see it like it's making developers more cautious and really they should be blazing their way forward [TS]

  and making apps that you know like like this to the you know the apps that Apple hasn't even thought of before. [TS]

  Show us your amazing apps it's just like you get the feeling that some Apple executives mind they like make amazing [TS]

  apps exactly the way I'm envisioning my mind and I'm not going to tell you about. [TS]

  I have a picture in my mind of what an amazing i would be like I'm not going to tell you what the picture is. [TS]

  Go make it and if you don't I'm going to reject your app like that's it. [TS]

  It's a chilling effect on development [TS]

  and so like if if customers are going to notice anything it's going to be this multi-year delayed thing from developers [TS]

  being more cautious to use A.P.I. Them and bring out labs. Absolutely. [TS]

  I'm without more interesting features [TS]

  and all you need is you know I was thinking of him are going to brothers up like what does it take for some of the [TS]

  subject or to take some of this I will screw this I'm going to under-developed friend right now. [TS]

  They need to be able to make money doing it [TS]

  and some structural issues probably need to be sorted out so they become less of a deterrent like for [TS]

  and I was developer. [TS]

  Even with all the devices that are out there now you have to think fragmentation [TS]

  and install base of the most recent version are a huge drag on switching over to Android because you had to wait for so [TS]

  long for you know the five point out to be everywhere [TS]

  and then you have to deal with so many more devices you had to wait for some sort of consolidation [TS]

  but even that is not nearly as bad as it used to be though like they did this crazy thing out of the crease details [TS]

  and if you do this crazy thing couple years ago it's our bundling all the A.P.I. [TS]

  Is together into the Google Play services which can self update I was thinking like hardware and patients [TS]

  and the screen sizes and and C.P.U. and G.P.U. Combinations of again it's a problem for really just games. [TS]

  Like for apps it's a lot less of a problem because you stop mattering as much for apps than the games. [TS]

  Well I know [TS]

  but like the reason I'm not just thinking of games I'm thinking of as in terms of what kind of applications are going [TS]

  to going to drive the platform forward and do amazing things and no one ever thought of [TS]

  and those are always the ones that push the system [TS]

  and it's easier as right now it's easier to make those on I.O.'s because you have a better idea of what you're going to [TS]

  be aiming at and the installed base on a more recent version so you can do something amazing in advanced. [TS]

  You can make more money doing it and I was and it will be easier. [TS]

  What will it take for those people to baling go to Android [TS]

  and try to do the same thing because that's what you don't want to happen is someone to come up with a new app idea [TS]

  that hasn't existed I think Bit Torrent as an example because like planned bittorrent didn't exist [TS]

  and someone came up with that idea and all our phones Russ's terrible idea to kill your battery [TS]

  but there were some some time of application that does something that would not be allowed in the App Store. [TS]

  But that has a user benefit. Users really like this application and it. [TS]

  Application would not be possible I was going to happen to land on Android first [TS]

  and everybody's like well I would get an Apple phone but only Android has insert whatever this killer app is. [TS]

  That's Apple's worst nightmare. [TS]

  Like if Twitter came out today and was only available and your example didn't allow something. [TS]

  Didn't know I guess I'm as access some crazy thing that you know whatever you don't want you don't want you you want to [TS]

  have that app you want to have like even for something as stupid as flappy bird and even though I'm sure there was [TS]

  and I enjoy doing everything right you want to be the platform where the great new thing happens [TS]

  and you can't plan for the great new thing and you don't know where it's going to come from [TS]

  and you know I was going to make it and you know know when it's going to appear. [TS]

  But you do know the more you restrict your platform Dowell higher the chances of the thing will appear only someplace [TS]

  else [TS]

  when it has a lot to do with also who is using a platform you know like like so many in the chat pointed out it was Hi [TS]

  Andy [TS]

  and Chad pointed out like you know a lot of times the the gotta have it apps that are only on one platform a lot [TS]

  and that's not because of technology limitations it's because the developer happened to use the platform [TS]

  or the most early adopters are on that platform and for the most part that platform today is I lesson [TS]

  and it has been I us for a while I think since I since the i Phone was launched it's been eyeless [TS]

  but that doesn't that's not guaranteed to always be the case. [TS]

  Like Instagram launching I was first because that's what you did in two thousand and ten [TS]

  or whenever it launched today I don't think anything would launch Android first [TS]

  but it would be increasingly difficult for service to get really big [TS]

  and B i Phone only today because the expectation is patient gets higher every year that you should be on both of those [TS]

  platforms the same time I would you know I'm still finding I wasn't because I'm just one guy on much ranting over the [TS]

  world and make a billion dollars from Facebook stock but I can't I couldn't recommend to like a big V.C. [TS]

  Back company want explosive growth I couldn't recommend to them that you go I only necessarily I think I think there's [TS]

  plenty that I have both and it's only an hour. [TS]

  Our time once you once you once you reach this point where we can say well you know you really should be looking at [TS]

  those platforms it's only a matter of time before something big happens on Android first [TS]

  and I don't think we're near that point yet I think we're still a few years off from that being very likely [TS]

  but the direction we're going that will eventually happen and I don't think Apple really cares about that [TS]

  or I don't I think they're in denial or I think they you know they don't think it will happen [TS]

  or they don't think it will be very important and I think they're wrong on both of those they're making assumptions. [TS]

  Well the other thing Apple has going for in that area [TS]

  and it seems to be the strategies of our as you know kind of a game console analogy is that it got so out of consuls [TS]

  like how annoying your platform is one. [TS]

  One lever the one they can always turn is well just sell of the zillion for you know I was hardware devices right [TS]

  because if we sell we need to keep selling those because if we don't all of those will be like Windows Phone [TS]

  and Omega for us [TS]

  and we just need to maintain some kind of within some kind of striking distance of Android's market share so that [TS]

  doesn't become that big of a deal because if Apple had fifteen percent market share wouldn't matter how awesome their [TS]

  platform is one matter how permissive there are pretty good rules are they would be like Windows Phone. [TS]

  Do I get a nice whatever you have some good developers you make some good apps but it's not enough. [TS]

  So they need to make good hardware and so a lot of it [TS]

  and so far they've been doing pretty good on that so it's giving them giving them the room to to screw up an app [TS]

  or view without as many consequences because just like well you know like it with Android no matter how annoying it is [TS]

  and it has a massive market share that if you are going to be a one of the biggest companies in the world you have to [TS]

  address it because it didn't matter how Banner [TS]

  and if you just have to it's like the more they have to market you've got to you got to go do it. [TS]

  Android is all apples only contender because it's got a lot of market share a big market share [TS]

  and it's perceived as being better and having customers who are more willing to spend money and sort of work. [TS]

  Pavel definitely has a larger share of the of the most desirable customers for most people right now [TS]

  and they have for a while but I think I think the percentage share of that goes down every year for Apple. [TS]

  I don't know that for sure I'm just guessing and I still think they have a pretty healthy lead [TS]

  but again it's like if you look at at the at the sum of all of this of why somebody would develop for us only or first. [TS]

  There used to be a lot of very strong reasons. There were a bunch of apps out there. [TS]

  There were a bunch of it like that this is where people look to get apps. [TS]

  There was a bunch of money to be made potentially all the early adopters uses platform. [TS]

  You personally use this platform you like this platform. [TS]

  There are so many great things you can do only on this platform or easiest on this platform. [TS]

  All those advantages or these motors of any distil exist today. All of them are weaker though than they used to be. [TS]

  Every time Apple does it you know a chilling effect kind of thing we got that preview. [TS]

  It just it drops that barrier lower and lower and lower [TS]

  and again it's a slow progression not an you know no single one of these factors is like totally collapsing suddenly [TS]

  they're all just lowering slowly over time [TS]

  and I just I fear that Apple is going to catch Apple by surprise if one data starts to be some spill over [TS]

  and an apple just misses it or they didn't see it coming or. [TS]

  And then And then what happened after that like what happens [TS]

  when a few prominent I was developers really do switch to Android [TS]

  and really start making really good stuff I enjoyed [TS]

  and not a nihilist I don't think we're very far from far away from that happening. [TS]

  I think that's to happen this coming year and and I don't know what happened after that [TS]

  but I think the barriers that Apple built around itself are substantially lower [TS]

  and weaker than I think Apple thinks they are. [TS]

  You think in the next year some on prom and developers are going to bail. Definitely. Yeah like who I don't think so. [TS]

  I mean I think with the watch coming there's a lot that's a lot of the strike people are very you know that what would [TS]

  that happen with the i Pad I remember like when ready for the i Pad came out was when the Nexus One came out [TS]

  and a whole bunch eyeless developers were like oh man the Nexus One it's kind of interesting [TS]

  and Google sent a bunch of them for free upset a lot of people including me I should disclose after the I wonder if I [TS]

  should make a stripper's Web site work better on this maybe eventually I make an app for it someday and then Apple [TS]

  and see I've had like a month later and then we all get attractive but I've had it for three years. [TS]

  That might happen with the watch. [TS]

  Maybe Apple's banking on that may be Apple's assuming that will happen with the watch. I'm not entirely sure it will. [TS]

  I think first of all you know watch kit in year one is going to be pretty limited in what you can even do with it [TS]

  and what kind of ads even make sense to have a watch App Not to mention if you think Apple is being you know [TS]

  controlling and arbitrary [TS]

  and capricious with the App Store rules with today widgets you haven't seen anything yet is we to watch comes out [TS]

  and they start denying apps for that for things that we consider invalid or stupid reasons [TS]

  or they start enforcing inconsistent rules for that. [TS]

  Believe me there's going to be a lot of that going on it's like I'm I'm actually honestly a little [TS]

  and there's nothing to I think a lot of developers are going to us in conclusion [TS]

  and you know they're going to see the stuff that Apple's pulling now with with the Iowa State things [TS]

  and say which isn't enough [TS]

  and they get a look at this newest became the I would watch him like well should I really spend the next three months [TS]

  developing a watch kit thing or should I just wait [TS]

  and see how the market shakes out because we're going to see a whole bunch of app review B.S. [TS]

  Next spring when this comes out we're going to see a lot of active U.B.S. [TS]

  Over the first few months but [TS]

  when the watch first comes out those big old wrestling he said with the i Pad if you're one of the first chapter [TS]

  vailable does X. [TS]

  On the watch you get massive massive leg up on everybody else you always want to be there [TS]

  when your device about a new category of device like the i Pad like the i Phone. [TS]

  So I don't think that's going to sway maybe it'll who think they have a shot at being there and knowledge maybe but [TS]

  but but again though there's also there's not a whole lot you can do with the watch caps quite yet. [TS]

  It doesn't matter you can charge ninety nine cents for your app that is watch integration [TS]

  and you get ninety nine cents or numbing sixty nine point nine. [TS]

  Well it's it's not really the country either right because you need to have a standalone app first in order to have a [TS]

  watch Kid app in presumably many of the watch Kid apps will be built upon standalone apps that presumably you've [TS]

  already paid for [TS]

  and most people are tweeting too I don't know in any case let's talk about something else that's really cool. [TS]

  It's back please. [TS]

  We are sponsored once again by Bakley our friends that are in the online backup business now let me tell you about [TS]

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  even just like human error sometimes like that's you know there's there's a lot of human error you can do if your [TS]

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  when you go if you're visiting your family this holiday season if you see you know your parent or grandparent [TS]

  or siblings computer without online backup give them the gift of installing back plays for them. [TS]

  So I went back it was really really important to use junk words if you don't have it you're not you should really [TS]

  really get on my back and Bakley is by far the best one that I have tried [TS]

  and I have used it long before they were a sponsor of the show of using it for years I have tried two other ones. [TS]

  Only and was very disappointed in both of them. From a network drive need Believe me back please is the one you want. [TS]

  That place is unlimited and unthroned old and you get it for just five bucks a month. [TS]

  So literally this unlimited disk space you know what or how much you have to combine between me [TS]

  and tiff I think we have something like six terabytes now in back with a lot of unlimited disk space. [TS]

  Five bucks per month per computer. Bakley was amazing there. [TS]

  I was an Android apps to access [TS]

  and share all your backup files so you can access your files on the go you can do single file restores if you want if [TS]

  you're like on a laptop and you forgot a file at home [TS]

  and you're on vacation somewhere you can get your files that way that plays runs natively on your mac. [TS]

  It is not like a weird Java aberrated thing it's a native MacO S ten app founded by X. [TS]

  Apple engineers when they have a new MacMini when you seventy. [TS]

  They're always up to date with newest releases I've never had that please break on me with an upgrade. [TS]

  There's no add ons no gimmicks there's no extra charge is really five bucks a month for unlimited on throttled fully [TS]

  native online backup for the Mac. [TS]

  It really is the simplest on back a program to use just install and it does the rest so really this holiday season. [TS]

  Build your love ones install back please. Someday they will thank you for that. [TS]

  Maybe not immediately begin to wonder what you're doing immediately. Someday they will thank you for that. [TS]

  Thanks a lot aback lasers once on our show once again. [TS]

  Write any other thoughts on the apps store stuff before we move along. [TS]

  There's always a it's like fall over that there's always going to be thoughts on the never ending pit of thoughts. [TS]

  My final thought I think is that it's within Apple's power [TS]

  and they have done it before to smooth over the worst of these misfires by talking directly to the affected developers [TS]

  until they're roughly satisfied and that is simultaneously the best [TS]

  and the worst thing that can happen is the best thing then that people come out of it happy. [TS]

  We get the features we want to be Thursday everyone comes to have a prize of room walks away satisfied. [TS]

  The worst thing that happened. [TS]

  It doesn't address the structural problem which causes these bear attack flare ups from average you [TS]

  and has for years [TS]

  and years so I don't know if we should just be hoping for a larger crisis which will become a crisis unity for us too [TS]

  for for Apple to actually fix the problems that I know it [TS]

  or we should be hoping for just for the the bad decisions to be averse and to go back to sleeping bear. [TS]

  Yeah mostly I mean I don't know it's just it seems like such a silly problem to have but whatever. [TS]

  For speaking of silly problems to have Let's talk about time commitments and I wanted to talk about a couple things. [TS]

  First is fastest is not for sale anymore. What I pulled today. There goes your M three an hour right. [TS]

  Tens of people a day are going to disappointed by this not be a good day. [TS]

  Now I pulled it for a handful of reasons and there's a point here but it's going to take me a second to get there. [TS]

  I pulled it because ACA hire. Yeah that's totally it. [TS]

  I pulled it because I feel like I'm kind of kidding myself in thinking that I'm going to find the time to get it [TS]

  updated for I was seven and given that we're already months into Iowa say that's kind of getting ridiculous. [TS]

  I'm getting to the point that I'm feeling guilty every time I do see a sales day of more than zero which is most days [TS]

  although it if it's more than five I'm doing a happy dance. [TS]

  I'm getting guilt or I'm feeling guilty about selling someone something that's so dated [TS]

  and knowing deep down in my heart of hearts that the likelihood of me updating it is not good. [TS]

  And as John seemed in the chat I'm really getting over that being a joke now [TS]

  and to be honest it deserves to be a joke it is kind of ridiculously funny and it's. [TS]

  Certain that we are on i OS eight and I have not yet updated for i OS seven [TS]

  but in the end of the day it occurred to me that it's really serving no good purpose it served its purpose which was [TS]

  for me to prove to myself that I could get something in the App Store and I did [TS]

  and I'm still proud of that accomplishment. [TS]

  But I'm no longer really proud of the way the app is today [TS]

  and it's a little better on my phone because I've updated most of the issues for i OS seven and eight. [TS]

  I saw the couple lingering bugs that I haven't had time to look at but and I was talking Aaron about it earlier today. [TS]

  I don't I can't imagine a time when I'm going to look at her and now we're getting little into analog territory [TS]

  but I can imagine a time when the look at her and say you know what rather than spending time with you [TS]

  and Declan let me go and hole myself up in the office and fight with auto [TS]

  and that is that is a bar that you can apply to all of anything else in life [TS]

  and decide that it's something you shouldn't do. But anyway why not just leave it there and be free. [TS]

  I could but then it's still it's still going to be oh how are you still been updated to yet [TS]

  and I'm just I'm over that because it's true and ridiculous like I'm grumpy about it I think because I know it's true. [TS]

  Like if it was like the good health K.C. [TS]

  Joke I still find that kind of funny because it's so hopefully not really true anymore. And so I've gotten past it. [TS]

  You're more famous than I was now on about that but anyway. But but in this case it is true and and that's just it. [TS]

  I'm feeling super guilty about it. [TS]

  Have you done a lot of open source development or contributing to open source projects. [TS]

  Not really I mean I have camel out on the on good hub which I actually want to talk about as well. [TS]

  But in terms of contributing to like massive open source projects I haven't. [TS]

  Mostly because the couple times I have been pigeon is an example which is the multi protocol I am client [TS]

  or library if nothing else this is a library that. Runs E.D.M. [TS]

  Addy [TS]

  and whatever you call it on the A D M We had that on the mac isn't the name of the Live Earth that was lit purple the [TS]

  dame librarian pigeon as the client. You are correct it's purple and pigeon is the client you're absolutely right. [TS]

  Anyways I looked into contributing to. I actually may not have even been lip purple it might have been A.T.M. [TS]

  and I started looking at this code and went I have no idea what the hell's going on here [TS]

  and I found that in a couple of open source projects I briefly considered contributing to the code was so crazy complex [TS]

  that and I feel like I'm pretty good at what I do but it was so esoteric [TS]

  and wild that I realized it was not even worth jumping in [TS]

  and so I have in short I haven't really contributed to any established open source projects now I bring that up because [TS]

  in the end this implied time commitment of open source projects was the subheading here on this topic what I was [TS]

  thinking of is my open source project that I started myself or published some are attributed to that I did years [TS]

  and years ago and most of them are all still out there and they're far worse off than fast X. Believe me. [TS]

  Barf I like things that I haven't worked on in a decade or more [TS]

  and were never very good because they were written by you know the much younger version of myself right. [TS]

  And I mean very I'm going to time go and things like that. [TS]

  There's code out there with my name on it is terrible that I'm embarrassed by [TS]

  but I don't pull it because it's like that's sort of part of the open source thing is like I write the source code. [TS]

  I put it up there and it's free for anyone to grab and use and my working on it. [TS]

  No and by adding features now my fixing bugs. [TS]

  That's a bigger discussion but it's it's super low priority [TS]

  but it would never occur to me to take it down even you know [TS]

  and maybe it's like Katie said manner of distance from either. [TS]

  Like this who is going where it's not true [TS]

  or you know you you feel these complaints are founded of someone complained to me that the one of my C.P.M. [TS]

  Model has a piece of crap. [TS]

  I would agree with them as cases seems to agree that fast sex you know is out of date at this point. [TS]

  But it wouldn't drive me to put I would like. [TS]

  I don't think I have [TS]

  and I don't think there is an implied commitment for me to continue to maintain for free in this open source code that [TS]

  I wrote in one thousand nine hundred seventy. [TS]

  I mean a lot to be fair the context a different of having an app in the App Store versus having a supermodel available [TS]

  they don't but if it's free even if it's for charge I understand that as you try to feel many feel bad about that [TS]

  but if it's free then you know it's exactly like the open source code [TS]

  and the sense of like well you know whatever you get what you paid for you didn't like it was a crappy Abdoulaye [TS]

  different from you didn't pay a dime for it right. [TS]

  If you don't like the software that's going to you downloaded and deleted her desk. [TS]

  Fine you know it's it's the same type of thing [TS]

  and the reason is that he was pulling it is because he felt he felt bad or guilty [TS]

  when people would complain to the apples [TS]

  and updated it's like yeah that's not updated I'm not doing fast acting anymore [TS]

  but that's techs that I didn't do was there. [TS]

  If it stops working and I was then yeah pull it or market is only work [TS]

  and older alike eventually will age out if you don't modify it right. [TS]

  Unlike most open source software because Unix never changes like it will continue to work right. [TS]

  Or if a dozen people to stop complaining about it. [TS]

  But anyway that's how I feel about my older projects is that I feel the same way K.T. [TS]

  Does in Paris by the members by their being not being updated you know and I feel the same way about future. [TS]

  Putting more time into it am I going to know because I have many other things that I'm doing in my time these days [TS]

  but I but my decision given all those things is not to pull but just to leave it there. [TS]

  Festering I guess I mean nothing like I totally get this I mean I went through some of the same things with buckshot [TS]

  bugs does not work. On the new i Phones for some reason and I don't even know why I never listen to the. [TS]

  I have spent five minutes on it could be a five minute fix I don't know the reason why it doesn't work is less [TS]

  important than the reason why I'm not working on it which is that it made no money. [TS]

  Basically no money made I think thirty five hundred dollars. The vast majority of which was the very first. [TS]

  That's no money all year Dorval now. [TS]

  Well MUCH MUCH MONEY FAST tax is made I don't think I have if I don't but I when there are dollars I will do [TS]

  and you do but I don't have the numbers in front of me so I don't want to lie [TS]

  but I am extraordinarily confident it's less than a thousand dollars and I'm pretty confident it was at [TS]

  or less than five hundred over the course of I think four years it's been in the store. [TS]

  OK well I feel like a jerk but it made a hole it made that amount of money up front [TS]

  and then it just stopped making money like it was bet it was down to [TS]

  and I remember there was even a brief time we were comparing buckshot to fast and they were fairly comparable. [TS]

  So like you know it had a good month and then it was over so that the fact is that it didn't work [TS]

  and I was eight on the new devices and what are C.E.O.'s of devices I don't even know. [TS]

  It wasn't even worth spending fifteen minutes on because if I'm going to make bug shot continue as a product I want to [TS]

  do a proper update to it for I was eight. [TS]

  Which would mean a full photo library integration so that you could for instance ante to screen shot [TS]

  and then delete it from your camera which you can't do in the current version if you couldn't do that you'll have to [TS]

  get things like be an extension so you could be you know that they have the photo editing extension type. [TS]

  Why isn't bug shot a photo editing extension so I will want to do that too I would want to make it look up a proper [TS]

  updated app if I'm to keep it in the store and keep working and keep it running as a product and the fact is it just. [TS]

  Doesn't make enough money. It never made enough money to make that really worth doing. [TS]

  And so [TS]

  when I look at how I want to spend this time which is what you were saying to me about you we look at like how do I [TS]

  want to spend the evening of coding fixing bugs shot [TS]

  but should really be you know at least a couple of weeks according to really do what I would want with it. [TS]

  So you know do I want to spend the next two weeks of coding time fixing bugs shot [TS]

  or improving overcast which is making money and which is you know seemingly a more deserving source of my time. [TS]

  Or if if I'm throwing around to you coding time show even try a whole different at maybe some creative thing for the [TS]

  watch. You know I'm sure I try to hold whole new product to give that a chance to succeed. [TS]

  So I made the decision it was not worth me putting any more time into it I didn't want to put any more time into it [TS]

  because it simply wasn't interesting and it wasn't going to pay off and the things I wanted to do with it. [TS]

  We're never going to be worth doing with it. [TS]

  And so for Kinser Casey first of all I feel like a jerk for ever making fun of you now. [TS]

  Second of all but it was deserved or well deserved baby a poor choice of words [TS]

  but it was accurate it was I mean it was meant to be insulting and meant to be funny you know. [TS]

  But so now it's OK jerk I'm sorry but I don't feel bad. [TS]

  But I totally understand what you're saying which is like you can't forsee a time where you're going to choose to spend [TS]

  your time doing that instead of anything else with your work or family and I get that. [TS]

  I totally get that like if that's your reason I totally support it because I've made the same kind of decision that I [TS]

  think you should be making the GOING TO did you publish or is it free. [TS]

  I pulled it I made it free a few months after at least when it was [TS]

  when it was clear maybe six months after it became very clear after a while it was making like between zero [TS]

  and three sales a day even at a dollar it was doing very badly. [TS]

  And and so I that's I'm just going to linger for why I did. You pull it after it was free. It's not working. [TS]

  Also there you know that's the mark Australia endorse Maybe [TS]

  when I stopped working poet because then you because then you're basically you're not putting more time into a bit like [TS]

  some of my bugs are just because Mark was not interested in putting in time [TS]

  and doesn't make it all of them not a useful application especially for the poor like someone saying you know this idea [TS]

  of when your app [TS]

  when you're not going to put in more time you have to leave you know on the stories for years Bagley clutters a store. [TS]

  No that's exactly the kind of clutter I want when I'm looking for an app and like I just want something quick and free. [TS]

  I wanted to be an app that a good developer has abandoned maybe it's not the best that maybe it's an I was six [TS]

  but it's not going to feel bad is actually going to do something useful not to be filled with you know spammy reviews [TS]

  that somebody paid for I would love to stumble upon bugs shot as a free screenshot annotation app that I needed in a [TS]

  pinch than something on the eight thousand other three apps which are probably not even screen chaps at all [TS]

  but some kind of like secret portal to you know some sort of online gambling thing or something who knows. [TS]

  So I have I would say that you should consider putting fast text back it's very intense not to work in that point don't [TS]

  put any more time into you don't want to but if someone is looking for an app that does a fast test text does [TS]

  and they stumble upon past X. [TS]

  It's not there [TS]

  but that's not filled with now where they'll download it for free will do what it does if they don't like the deleted [TS]

  fine like I think you know you did put work into it does do something it is functional. [TS]

  Why not let people benefit from it even though you may feel bad about not updating or whatever [TS]

  but I don't you know I wouldn't spend time feeling bad about that because you're just making a choice about what to do [TS]

  with your time. [TS]

  So one of the reasons is I feel like it's calling attention to something that isn't my best work which I know you [TS]

  talked about as you see Pan modules but I don't know I just gotten older [TS]

  and as I've gotten to be some kind of internet persona I take a lot of pride in. [TS]

  Things that I put out into the Internet and [TS]

  and well camel for example the blogging software that I wrote the powers case whois dot com It's not terribly great [TS]

  code but it's not terribly bad code and it works. [TS]

  And honestly I'm pretty proud of my website [TS]

  and maybe some people read it maybe they don't maybe some listeners will read it and be like why is he proud of this [TS]

  and that's OK I mean if you don't get it that doesn't matter to me because I'm proud of it [TS]

  and I'm not proud of fast text anymore and but the thing don't you think that's the way it should be. [TS]

  I've always considered it a badge of honor a desirable trait that if you are a programmer you should always look back [TS]

  at the code you wrote in the past and think it's bad because if you don't that means you're not getting any better. [TS]

  So if you look at the code your last year you should find problems with it now that you didn't find then if you look at [TS]

  the code that you wrote five years ago it should look disgusting it was ten years ago to look like nonsense [TS]

  and you can't even believe you are the same person who wrote it like that should be true for the life of a working [TS]

  program so the fact that you are no longer proud of FESTAC as a product as a as a pilot source code as a whatever shows [TS]

  that you are making progress that if you were to make it now you would do it better you would see things in it now that [TS]

  that are you know that are more wrong or they could be done. [TS]

  You know me like that I don't think that should dissuade you like and yes is not your best work. [TS]

  Yes it's bad that someone might google your name and someone across this thing [TS]

  and not see the date on it unlike him ascending with the pen model someone stumbles across you know as my largest giant [TS]

  pile of public Procardia look at it it's all crap and decide that I'm a programmer. [TS]

  That's like I guess I'm willing to take that risk that they don't see the dates and [TS]

  or whatever especially since it was all the topic they can get to [TS]

  and a bit of Especially since I am still actually maintaining that code unlike your deciding not to maintain fast X. [TS]

  but I don't think you should feel bad about just because you're not proud of it I think I think all of your [TS]

  applications all your endeavors. You should look back on and say that is no longer up to my. [TS]

  Standards and I do and I mean I was. [TS]

  Here's the comedy of all this how I know I made the right call as I had like half an hour to fiddle around tonight [TS]

  and I ended up adding a feature to camel rather than futzing with fast text [TS]

  and so that's how I knew that I probably made the right call but. [TS]

  I agree with you and and even as I was looking at camel Earlier tonight I looked at it [TS]

  and thought Oh God I should really refactor like half of this [TS]

  but I feel like with fast text it's sort of advertising that I'm not good at what I'm sort of supposed to be good at to [TS]

  be a part of the show. [TS]

  Same thing as my theory then modules about Perl code of mine can you see you can see old code that's bad code can't you [TS]

  see all the code are right for my employers I think it's a little different to me I find it a little different though [TS]

  because your perl code does not directly relate to the things you're known for on the Internet it's not like you're I [TS]

  mean the best analogy I can think of is like old crappy system seven reviews that are still out on which I know you [TS]

  never wrote but just hypothetically don't know if you if you want to go for that. My old O S ten or views are terrible. [TS]

  The writing is terrible I cannot even look at them I just know I've said this before [TS]

  and it I don't know why I'm the only person internet pointing this out because it's the worst they have ever say [TS]

  but people want to know if I use smileys in some of them old clothes around here in the middle of the text. [TS]

  Do you understand that. [TS]

  That's and that's what I'm known for his tender views and they're out there [TS]

  and the writing is terrible the content is terrible and it's just one I don't want to think about [TS]

  but am I going to pull those reviews you know that you can really special editions that have all the crap removed at a [TS]

  much new crap out of people keep asking for you know a collection of them [TS]

  and I'm like that would mean that I would have to make hard decisions about you know I'd like to look at special. [TS]

  Take out the Smileys like what order of the line. [TS]

  Queen of the mat line in the dust and scratches the smile is counted out lines I think oh goodness. [TS]

  So I mean I understand your point and to me it just seems it seems different probably because it's me and not you. [TS]

  I just look at it differently but I understand your point about making a free [TS]

  and that's actually something I hadn't really thought about [TS]

  and maybe I'll do that maybe maybe I want to I don't know [TS]

  but I just I feel like I feel like it calls attention to something I guess that what I'm trying to say to the C.P.M. [TS]

  Modules you have to kind of seek out. [TS]

  Whereas I think if I were a random person looking at looking to figure out who the three of us are you know for you [TS]

  they would find your O S ten reviews which granted the older ones may not be great [TS]

  but the newer ones are just freakin phenomenal and for Marco they'll find a laundry list of successful applications [TS]

  and projects and Business Insider blog posts. Well there's that too. [TS]

  But but but for me I don't want someone to stumble upon fast text and judge me based on that [TS]

  and I guess in summary maybe just plain pride but I don't know I just I felt like the right answer was to pull it. [TS]

  I got bad as you can see him [TS]

  and several years you're going to say the same thing about the podcast we're recording right now are not enough. [TS]

  That's very true that's very true. I mean that like this is true of everything like that. [TS]

  If you're getting better at things which most of us do continue to get better things as as we get older. [TS]

  Especially things not having to do with the calorie. [TS]

  You will look back on what you've done previously even if it's the thing you're most known for [TS]

  and think it is not up to your standards and that you could do better now [TS]

  or find things wrong with it that you didn't find wrong with a now I think you should be proud of fast X. [TS]

  If I had an app on the App Store I will leave it there until it broke. I think making it go. [TS]

  Free is entirely understandable [TS]

  but I would definitely believe I lived out there just just sort of like prove to the world that like you said I did [TS]

  make an iris up once and it does work and did do things and here it is and maybe you just change how you refer to it [TS]

  and sort of your on line resume like in my little section on my website. [TS]

  Like retired podcast podcast that I'm no longer doing right now that you should feel better as you do [TS]

  but you know you gotta do what you gotta do I also think you should put food on the I can protect her dead [TS]

  and then sell it for you. [TS]

  Fascitis sure if you can get me more than twenty bucks out South America really reversal here in hundreds to buy [TS]

  something instead of selling it. Yeah right. [TS]

  Well why don't you tell us Marco about something that awesome [TS]

  and then I'd like to talk a little bit about like what John was referring to earlier which is the implied time [TS]

  commitment of open source projects which is a kind a different animal. [TS]

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  and very reasonably priced After that it's incredible if you needed internet for a group of ten people or fewer. [TS]

  Just go do it it's free forever. Fantastic it was offered a com slash A.T.P. [TS]

  With a response of resign your internet already works like a champ on virtually any device I O. S. [TS]

  Android even Blackberry you can review document post a project update [TS]

  or change them in settings all right from your phone. [TS]

  Plus when you design your igloo any change you make to the look [TS]

  and feel carries across all devices all the designs are responsive [TS]

  and customizable to you in fact their file preview engine is also fully H.T.M.L. [TS]

  Five compatible so when your co-workers ability a proposal or a Java Script file or a document you can preview. [TS]

  I'd add comments upload new versions or assign action items. [TS]

  All right from your phone even it doesn't support Flash or Java or anything like that it's all H.T.M.L. Five. [TS]

  So it was recently featured in the Gartner Magic Quadrant. [TS]

  If you're a business you know what this means if you're a customer this might sound like jibberish [TS]

  but trust me it's good. [TS]

  Gardner's famous Magic Quadrant for social software included a glue they appear for the sixth consecutive year [TS]

  alongside tech giants like Microsoft I.B.M. Google V.M. [TS]

  Ware Sales Force dot com And as a P for the values the viability of the vendor it is praised for the response of MS [TS]

  and customer experience. [TS]

  If your company has a legacy has a legacy Internet built on Share Point [TS]

  or old core of technology you definitely should give it Lou try the really cool fantastic Internet really an entrant [TS]

  you actually like and anybody's ever had to use a corporate Internet before. That's a pretty bold statement. [TS]

  And if they follow through with it it's really great so a glue loose Software dot com slash A.T.P. [TS]

  To sign up and it's free to use with other ten people [TS]

  and a very reasonably priced after that really free for up ten people. Humans will do it there's no downside.. [TS]

  Go try it free for up to ten people go to the Software dot com slash A.T.P. Thanks a lot. [TS]

  So the other thing I want to talk about is the implied time commitments of open source software [TS]

  and I first became affected by this when I open source camel which again is the no J.S. [TS]

  Based blogging platform that I use to power my website [TS]

  and I got enough attention from it that a handful of people had forked it and had issued poll requests and [TS]

  or made various comments on good hug [TS]

  and I noticed that a lot of times I just didn't have the time to handle these any timely manner [TS]

  and apparently I'm trying to squeeze more time in a sense thirty four times anyway. [TS]

  Now Anyhow occasionally there were there were instances where people would issue a pull request wait a day or two [TS]

  and then like poll or rescind the poll request saying oh I guess you didn't like this. Those people are jerks. [TS]

  Well kind a Yeah but at the same time I feel or felt especially when there was a little more activity. [TS]

  A couple months back a few months back I felt this like overwhelming burden put on me to get through these poll [TS]

  requests in a timely manner and I probably shouldn't have and this comes back to what John was saying earlier. [TS]

  But nevertheless I felt huge amounts of guilt [TS]

  and this burden because I wasn't getting through these poll requests quickly enough [TS]

  and it was something I totally did not expect [TS]

  and it's a wonderful wonderful thing in that people care enough to be issuing these poll requests [TS]

  but at the same time I was not prepared for I kind of thought in my head that I was going to just throw it out into the [TS]

  Internet and then kind of walk away never look back and turns out that's not really the case. [TS]

  Yeah so but the thing that I'm struggling with a similar only over a longer timeline [TS]

  and now you can tell me what you think I should do about this so I really see by [TS]

  and see Ben models out there most of them nobody uses anymore which is kind of the ideal that Casey was looking for. [TS]

  Like you throw it out there and you know and no one looks at it again [TS]

  and I have some like my first one actually from the ninety's probably doesn't work anymore. [TS]

  But no one downloaded to nobody knows that so it's fine but I do have a couple that people are still using [TS]

  and what you did back in the day and what you probably still do today when you go to see them much will became popular. [TS]

  If you made a website for a Dios of the source code somewhere where people could you know where you had a bug tracker. [TS]

  You put it in version control you gave commit bits of the diary for people you want to contribute to the project you [TS]

  started a mailing list. And like you just you built up this ecosystem around us pretty good. [TS]

  Yeah well this is the way to her get her like this before a source for chocolates [TS]

  or sword he was like wow this whole web site does all the stuff for you. [TS]

  So one of the actual time commitments of having an open source project like this is that I have had to move those [TS]

  things to new places and the old places go away or become crappy like source for chess right. [TS]

  So I move in source or to code I'll probably move from google code to get hub move version control from C.V.S. [TS]

  To some version now I'm starting to show my age here from some version to get which I probably will do eventually. [TS]

  And those are things it's like at the time you have those decisions. Well I could just leave it there for ever. [TS]

  But maybe the mountain is broke or maybe something's not working or maybe nobody uses C.V.S. Anymore. [TS]

  So do I not put any more time in and just you know like remove it from the Internet or just like let it die [TS]

  or do I put in a day or two to move these things [TS]

  and historically have decided that it's worth putting in the time to do these conversions [TS]

  and to move the stuff around or whatever [TS]

  and the second part is I see you've got this image of like a mailing list you've got a mailing list is kind of like an [TS]

  implicit support channel where people will post questions [TS]

  and the malice is so low volume of the only person I was who can answer me [TS]

  and over the course of a decade literally this is malice there which is degenerated to. [TS]

  I give free support for a module that I hadn't worked on in years. [TS]

  Right so people ask a question and literally the only personal answer is me [TS]

  and do I should I spend time answering these people they're not my customers are not giving any money do I have any [TS]

  commitment to help these people with their programming problems which often are nothing to do with my model. [TS]

  Not really and so I struggle with the guilt of like do I just not answer anyone's questions anymore [TS]

  and that's how this analyst I do I shut down the mailing list or do I. [TS]

  Why spend the five minutes to answer a question [TS]

  and then the final thing which case it was going to is the equivalent in the GO code world using subversion [TS]

  and go code instead of getting Get help pull requests [TS]

  and bug reports some reports a bug someone reports a bug in the patch. [TS]

  Someone makes feature request feature requests I'm pretty OK with just ignoring this point it's like well you know if [TS]

  you want an implemented but then what if they go off an implement it. [TS]

  If they implement it [TS]

  and send me a patch then I have to get with like my case he was like well I probably wouldn't add that feature myself [TS]

  or maybe it would add up but I would do in a different way [TS]

  and the same thing with bug fixes they would send the Senate passed with a bug fix and a test and everything else [TS]

  and documentation and it's like you just always take some time to clean those things up put them in test [TS]

  and cut a new release so and so forth. [TS]

  And my decision so far has been I will incorporate bug fixes if you report a bug is reproducible [TS]

  and you have a test case I will fix that bug [TS]

  or figure out what it takes to take it so I won't add features for the most part and thus you send a feature [TS]

  and tied up in a little bow I'll spend fifteen minutes half an hour an hour to get it integrated [TS]

  or for a module that I myself don't use anymore. [TS]

  That is terrible in that no one should really use that you know that is really old. [TS]

  The source code that I can barely look at anymore but I mean I don't know what's driving me to put any time into it [TS]

  and yet I am [TS]

  and so I I almost feel like that I'm like a slave to the lingering popularity of a once popular set of for all modules [TS]

  that I just I don't know how to like sometimes I find myself thinking [TS]

  when I get a message the email isn't someone make some demand or whatever might want you to implement it yourself. [TS]

  Like if you're if you're so hot about it like you know why should I answer this question for you why should I fix [TS]

  but all you get you get resentful. [TS]

  Like not their fault like I don't I don't act on the things that you feel like and I am your free servant why. [TS]

  Like it's like a stack overflow one like that but I'm not. [TS]

  That's right [TS]

  and I guess a lot of time it's you know it's from either something simple where they don't understand something basic [TS]

  about programming or like being sanely most complex thing I've got this and that and the other thing [TS]

  and they're all tied together like this and I'm doing this and that and then I would like to do this [TS]

  and you think of a way I can do this it's like Are you kidding. [TS]

  That's what I do for a job I get paid to do that that is a very complicated problem that we have a white board [TS]

  and like days to sit down to figure out [TS]

  and it's like well answer for free for me on this mailing list just so I'm going to benefit generation with these [TS]

  things mostly dealing with it by doing the minimal work necessary to make myself feel guilty which means actually [TS]

  fixing bugs because people are using these things [TS]

  and I don't want to fix bugs like my final out is to hand off this model to someone who cares like you know the [TS]

  equivalent Marco selling his stuff to someone who wants a thing. [TS]

  Is there somebody who wants to take over maintain or ship of this here you go go with it [TS]

  and I won't do that because I still have some tiny bit of pride in like this was once a pretty good thing. [TS]

  I spent a long time implementing and running tests and documentation and it still kind of works sort of [TS]

  and you know I don't know I just don't feel like I want to give it up because I don't know. [TS]

  So anyway I don't know how to deal with that situation it's a constant source of guilt and potential time suckage. [TS]

  Now Marco How have you dealt with F C model because that's probably the most active of anything we've described I would [TS]

  guess. [TS]

  Well recently I mean probably the most used thing I've ever done is buckshot kit which I haven't touched in a long time [TS]

  and for many the same reason I haven't took buckshot in fact much of buckshot goes in book jacket [TS]

  but it's mostly because you know it I did it it worked. [TS]

  I use it for a while I no longer use buckshot kit in my own app on his I don't really need that kind of integration of [TS]

  testing and stuff anymore and that's it so I haven't touched in a long time and it doesn't really need anything. [TS]

  It generally works and you know all the code is pretty simple [TS]

  and if you needed to do something you can just do it yourself in your own app. I do it. [TS]

  Only get pull requests on buckshot kit if it's something really trivial that's an obvious you know minor improvement [TS]

  or minor bug fix I'll just accept it. [TS]

  If it's more than that I'll usually sit on it [TS]

  and forget to do it for a month in the vengefully it'll become so ridiculous at data that there's no point accepting it [TS]

  kind of like old emails with S.C. [TS]

  Model is different so there really isn't a group of people out there wandering around looking like your open source [TS]

  library that does some really specific thing that they don't need to do [TS]

  or that some really general thing like like your utility library like I have my utility library open source like so [TS]

  many people do. Nobody uses it. [TS]

  Nobody looks at it I get noble requests on it like it's gets no activity because there's not a whole lot of people [TS]

  looking around for your utility library so just like there's not a lot of value that for most people not to get pull [TS]

  requests you know you know they don't just come from the poll request fairies like they like they come from people who [TS]

  are using your code. People who need the code you've written who value it. [TS]

  The code for which there aren't a lot of alternatives or there aren't a lot of big well known alternatives [TS]

  and that they need to be modified in some way [TS]

  and in the percentage of those people who actually go through with the modification [TS]

  or release filing a bug report with you or asking you about it rather than just ripping it out [TS]

  and doing something else or taking quietly themselves and never submit back to you. [TS]

  So for most projects most open source projects. [TS]

  The reason why you probably get a noble request because you like just having open source something doesn't inherently [TS]

  make it like useful to enough people that they will start using it and submitting improvements to you. [TS]

  I do completely agree with John that it is kind of annoying though [TS]

  when somebody to mythical request is like well intentioned but either something that I wouldn't do [TS]

  or something I would've done differently. [TS]

  Well eight are even poorer because what if someone sent you an email because you don't have a malice for a C. [TS]

  Model or anything as far as I know I sent you an e-mail and said Hey I was using your. [TS]

  Never your utility library as he model bugs I get whatever and I was trying to do X. [TS]

  and I couldn't quite figure a way to do it I tried to do this and it didn't quite work [TS]

  and I thought maybe you could do that but I'm not sure if I'm using your own can you help me. [TS]

  What would you do with that email I would respond probably the most it was a really quick response. [TS]

  You would not respond at all I would be looking at the support email I mean I get so much e-mail I can't I can't spend [TS]

  like a half hour respond to that that that's all I'm saying like that type of the writer [TS]

  and imagine if you got like maybe three of those a week for a decade starts there where I knew I just feel like like [TS]

  you feel so bad like I am the king of ignoring people's emails right. [TS]

  I don't even know even I start to feel bad because it's like especially with programming questions. [TS]

  Happens on Twitter too it's like I could get the answer to this question often by this point I will be someone else [TS]

  goes I remember anymore like you could if you have the answer the question could be you can use my usual elaborate do [TS]

  that because doesn't work that way [TS]

  and then you feel like now you're in a conversation with them they're you like looking at that feature [TS]

  and then your only answer is like no because I'm not spending time and I don't want it [TS]

  and then it's like it's like you just wasted your you wasted more time than you want to spend on this and it's [TS]

  and that's the best case trying to get out as fast as possible. [TS]

  The worst case is you don't know the answer and you have to investigate [TS]

  and you're like why am I invested in this guy's programming problem you know I mean like are you just because you wrote [TS]

  F C model does that mean that there is implicit support contract with everyone who tries to use a few miles do you have [TS]

  to provide them support. [TS]

  No Mike I don't think you do but if you don't you end up looking like a jerk if you reply [TS]

  and say sorry this library is not supported there you like. I demand my money back. [TS]

  What are they going to say but they will think you're a jerk. F.C. [TS]

  Model is actually a really good example of everything working very very well. [TS]

  So the quick version is it's it's a very thin lightweight model where instead of using the link. [TS]

  or data it's basically sticking a very thin layer on top of S.Q. [TS]

  Right and you can do things you know like the database when I use this because I'm a jerk and I don't like or data [TS]

  and I like to read everything myself so I wrote the thing. [TS]

  F C model has what appears to be very few users I think I would guess a number of people building after that is [TS]

  probably less than ten. [TS]

  It is a very small group of people but of those like three or four of them actually actively submit push pull [TS]

  and pull requests and they're actually really good and you know [TS]

  and usually will discuss something like before a substantial change will discuss it in an issue [TS]

  and I'll write the facts you know because I'm a control freak but you know [TS]

  when people people have submitted so many like little tiny bug fixes and little improvements here [TS]

  and there there are only a few lines long and that's all great but you start supporting them because [TS]

  when someone says hey I was trying to this thing it didn't work because I did this. [TS]

  You are providing support because your support is engaging in a discussion with them about the future getting at the [TS]

  heart of what it is that they want [TS]

  and then you maintain ownership by Center saying well this is how I would do it in this is what I would do [TS]

  and then implementing that So it's a support function you're essentially implementing features at their request maybe [TS]

  just not exactly the way they did and talking to them answering their questions about it. [TS]

  Well I am except well but if it's like a how does this work question you usually don't answer those. [TS]

  And sometimes somebody else will which is really nice [TS]

  but I don't get a lot of those because again not a lot of people use this [TS]

  and the people you don't know what they're doing like not a bunch of beginners flooding into like I am. [TS]

  I just started writing my first I was out and I stumbled across your thing can you tell me how to use it. [TS]

  Right because they are not going to be looking for sunlight as they're going to be using core data because that's all [TS]

  the door L.Z. [TS]

  Is [TS]

  and that's fine that's they should be using some like this probably cord it is much simpler than your modules will be fine. [TS]

  Right. So what's great about this though is it like the reason why I'm engaged with it. [TS]

  The reason why I react to the poll requests and I improve it is purely selfish it's because I use it in overcast and. [TS]

  I'll probably use it in any near future apps that I would write as well like not I'm sorry [TS]

  and things that are pregnant and just if I was something new I'd probably use it again. [TS]

  That's why I pay attention because it's improving my app too. [TS]

  And my my needs for overcast drive a few miles development. The bugs I wouldn't do I fix an F.C. [TS]

  Model etc The performance issues are until I fix their Everyone gets out so this is the honeymoon period [TS]

  when you're still using it for your own work. [TS]

  I had several models for the most part were written for jobs I had at the time so that I could write them put them up [TS]

  and then get the benefits I was able to give its various people I work for that there is a benefit in open sourcing [TS]

  this part of the product because I will get used to cheer other people bug reports from other people like you know that [TS]

  the open source model and it worked for the years that the software was relevant [TS]

  but as it became less relevant it sort of aged out. [TS]

  I stopped using it other people stopped using it now it's like a zombie for right now if the model is new relevant it's [TS]

  extremely relevant in light of the various weird you know I got core data things that were going on right now which [TS]

  motivated existence [TS]

  and that you know so it's definitely in the period where you are reaping the benefits of of this being a module that I [TS]

  mean not widely used. [TS]

  He's had like ten active people [TS]

  but it's it's useful to you even if you are the only user you would like to have it out there just in case something [TS]

  happens to stumble across it because and find some bug [TS]

  or you know whatever like even the you know the talking to the to the bear thing where I said nobody ever looked at the [TS]

  source code but the mere act of publishing it like you know the mere act of you publishing a blog post [TS]

  or something cause you to find a typo that you didn't see when you've been staring out of the previous hour [TS]

  when it was in your you know unpublished state. Oh yeah I mean the F.C. [TS]

  Model is probably the best couldn't overcast by a long shot. [TS]

  And would you say that's because of the contributions now because he had to show it to people who had to clean it up to [TS]

  make it look not embarrassing. [TS]

  I mean it's both I mean like one thing the contributions have really helped with is like. [TS]

  The contribution of often be by very good programmers who have been around much longer than I have at this [TS]

  or is better than me at it and they will they will use a convention that I didn't even know existed like. [TS]

  Like instead of doing you know processor defines for string constants will do the X. [TS]

  Turn thing or like using and you knew instead of defining a new in the old C. [TS]

  Ways of the some autocomplete thing works better like there's little things like that that I pick up from the poll [TS]

  requests then I start doing that [TS]

  and the dreaded words like it's like I'm working with a bunch of smart people who are slowly [TS]

  and steadily improving my own skills by showing me cool things I could do like any rows I could do [TS]

  or show a better way to doing things in very you know it oftentimes in very small ways [TS]

  but over time that builds up I mean if the model is really like it is by far the only successful open source thing I've [TS]

  ever done [TS]

  and the most successful teachers ever done everything else of every open source has been really minimally benefited [TS]

  anybody including me and you know John you're right as your model is in the honeymoon phase because I'm using it. [TS]

  I stop using bugs and so bugs it is languishing and will probably never going to fit again if I ever stop using a C. [TS]

  Model the project will probably die at that point or somebody else can take it over if they want to [TS]

  but probably I want to and that would be it. [TS]

  But right now I'm still using it and I suspect I'll be using it for a while. [TS]

  So yes right now I'm fine so I guess my my way out is I just have to get better at ignoring them I can ever you know [TS]

  bug reports though I can probably you know our feature requests you know stuff like that of oh that'll be sad because [TS]

  that old you know people don't know it's going to be said for bug reports like how can ignore them you know all of them [TS]

  just pile up like yeah this bug I just feel like I have to fix it. Especially just like you know it's. [TS]

  That still works so I guess it's still working software I think it's a shame too. [TS]

  Work itself or become on working just because of one minor thing. [TS]

  I don't know I will probably just insane to limp along with stuff like I keep hoping that people lose interest entirely. [TS]

  But but they don't people still sign up for the mailing list and like you know I don't understand them. I'm conflicted. [TS]

  Thanks a lot to our sponsors this week. Oscar Bakley is an igloo and he will see you next week. [TS]

  Now that's a downturn and she's accepted That's right. So John you got a P S four last week sometime. [TS]

  I knew I was going to get one eventually and I kept telling myself I will get one [TS]

  when there's a game that I want to play and of course I would love for the game to be Last Guardian [TS]

  but you know I say it surely will be some other game that I want to play before the [TS]

  when the last of us remastered came out I thought that might be the game [TS]

  but I just very recently played the non remastered on B S three so that didn't make me by P S four [TS]

  and I don't know what maybe I would now I think it's kind of my my tradition pre-Christian this present. [TS]

  My self that I give myself before Christmas Around away for Christmas so I can play with it in the vacation because [TS]

  that's a long time but that is not become a tradition and I bought myself something that I wanted and [TS]

  and give it to myself before Christmas morning so I can play with it while on vacation and so the P.S. [TS]

  or Fit the bill for that because I was going to get one anyway [TS]

  but I don't really know what kind of games I was going to get for it [TS]

  and so I just got a mix of download a lot of downloadable titles that in lot of bother getting discs shipped to me [TS]

  or whatever and I still think that they load faster off the hard drive. [TS]

  I don't if that's not true please don't tell me because I like to keep my allusions [TS]

  but you know so I downloaded a bunch of stuff and [TS]

  when I play I'm not planning although I say I had destiny my son is already addicted to that destiny is exactly what I [TS]

  thought it would be it's fine. [TS]

  The controller just destroys my hands playing destiny the Alex exists on the wrong spot you got to use all four [TS]

  triggers at the same time and then are going out nightmare for me. [TS]

  I really need to limit my time playing a game which is a shame because I find it fun. [TS]

  Investing is pretty well done I don't know why I got such terrible reviews I guess people have higher expectations [TS]

  but I I consider more of a long term investment and my son is really enjoying it so [TS]

  when I saw reviews like six point five out of ten for Destiny maybe was Bug year on launch maybe just people have [TS]

  higher expectations [TS]

  but it fully satisfied everything that I thought it would be it's not really my dad to gamble anyway. [TS]

  But but but mostly is annoying about the P S four is [TS]

  and I knew that going in is that is not going to be a drop in replacement for my P S three because Sony concentrated so [TS]

  heavily on the game features that they're seemingly like obstinately opposed to doing new media center type stuff like [TS]

  they don't sell a Bluetooth like remote for not you know like a remote remote that looks like a T.V. Remote. [TS]

  So you have to use the game if you want to use it as your own. [TS]

  Blu ray player like my P S three is always on my Blu ray player. Or if you want to use your B.S. [TS]

  For as a player you have to use the controller and that is ridiculous [TS]

  and I can have the controller sitting there on the end table so I can just I just want to that there are third party [TS]

  remotes that you can buy but all of them had terrible reviews and all of them use an I.R. [TS]

  Interface connected to the U.S.B. [TS]

  Thing and I was like Sony can you just make a remote like charge some stupid ridiculous amount for [TS]

  and I'll buy it I just want a remote they used to didn't they for the P S three of the P S The P S three has a [TS]

  Bluetooth remote that works is B S three I'm pretty sure it doesn't work with the P S four some [TS]

  and if it does we're going to be a source on the chair and tell me I will. [TS]

  I control my P S three with the harmony thing is that has a Bluetooth interface and I can do it and it works great. [TS]

  Yeah if I can find anyone knows that I want to send feedback to show a Bluetooth remote that works with the P S four [TS]

  natively without any real drivers and that works well. [TS]

  That's fine and some of the charities point out my very next point no deal [TS]

  and I support for you know streaming video of all the various House devices in my house that can do that [TS]

  and so you know forget about like having the Plex operated like that. [TS]

  Just the basic media center type stuff I can play everywhere if you can play Blu ray movies on it [TS]

  and I bet it's pretty OK Blu ray player although I was researching this a lot of people playing with the very first [TS]

  version the P S four software. [TS]

  The Blu ray player wasn't even as good as the P S three one so I still have my P S three attached I still use it as I [TS]

  blew a player I don't really use it for D.N.A. That much as my T.V. [TS]

  Doesn't now natively so I don't want turn on the P S three if I don't have to [TS]

  but depending on where video comes from and what format it's in. Sometimes I have to use P.S. [TS]

  Three media server sometimes I have to use the P S three to stream for someplace else sometimes like a standard for my [TS]

  T.V. but I do a lot of things that's my T.V. Now. [TS]

  Like if I can't get rid of my P S three want to get rid of my P S four and I can't get rid of my wee [TS]

  when I get my way you know because that we still play the game as Game Cube connectors like I got five game console [TS]

  Sega's and I.T.V. Plus Apple T.V. You know Tivo Plus I'm running at inputs here. So as I really hope. [TS]

  The media center type capabilities of the P S four get better [TS]

  but right now it's disappointing to me that I can't make a clean upgrade. [TS]

  Art is also disappointing that the shape of the P S four. [TS]

  If you put a B S three on top of P S four it doesn't look right to me it looks like that the front of this [TS]

  or the slanty and it doesn't make a pleasing shape [TS]

  and you can put the P S four on top of the P S three biggest curve like a drug for mongrels little skitter off the P S [TS]

  four doesn't have feet on the bottom and has these three little rubber curve things [TS]

  and a kind of a tripod that elevate the P S four barely off the surface [TS]

  but because the air in the air intakes are not on the bottom so you could have the thing flush [TS]

  but if you put it on top of another piece of equipment it will be blocking the holes more or less [TS]

  and I think that it's on top of so I had to buy some clear rubber feet to elevate it to area to the devices underneath [TS]

  it and I'm out of Court T.V. [TS]

  So I had to buy a new switch [TS]

  and it's just you know it's someplace I'm not out of plugs in the power of getting close give a thing with the missing [TS]

  feet I was just about to say that get out of my head but I think feet and fast text I can do it. All right fine. [TS]

  Yeah so anyway the controller is an improvement over the P S three one [TS]

  but the button layout is so wrong the sticks are still in the wrong spot. [TS]

  The triggers are better but not that much better [TS]

  and the controls are expensive like fifty bucks each hour the touchpad thing that they added is not a good touch pad [TS]

  but it does make text input slightly less painful because you can use a touch pad to move the little cursor around on [TS]

  to the key things. [TS]

  Would you ever consider stacking the P S four with a non Sony system to make it stack better with your step. [TS]

  Or does it have to be stuck with a P S three now I was stuck with anything the kids type of it you see my so there's [TS]

  not a room that little shelf. [TS]

  There's only two possible cases you can go Under the P S three or on top of my receiver [TS]

  and under the P S three it looks weird and on top of my receiver is where it is now [TS]

  but it's in feet elevated up second question. Would you consider D.D. Chaining two receivers. [TS]

  You get like seven more E.Q. [TS]

  My inputs and I don't David Jane [TS]

  and you can just get a switching box of searching about her terrible is why I got that I got this this receiver because [TS]

  I was trying to find a balance of what about the Sony receiver that had ten H.D.M.I. [TS]

  Inputs but all this just this huge thread of horror stories about a blanking out [TS]

  and having all sorts of problems so I guess I should go into the thread it's not like forty pages people complain to [TS]

  Sony and I'm trying to fix it. [TS]

  Anyway I'm glad I didn't get that one so I got this one that all the features that I wanted six H.D.M.I. [TS]

  Ports but one of them is on the front my T.V. Has but for a three. [TS]

  Like I still have options like I try to connect the consul's directly to T.V. [TS]

  To reduce input lag so I have I still have enough options for the devices I have I'm not out of ports like I'm close to [TS]

  being out of ports on a receiver [TS]

  but I can connect both of the Consul both of the council the current gen console swell the P S four in the way you [TS]

  directly to the T.V. and D.V.D. [TS]

  For input leg reason so I'm not really out of sorts [TS]

  but next generation of consoles are going to have to make some hard decisions about what to do because I won't be [TS]

  getting it to you by then if I can help it. [TS]

  Even that's going to be how many years away the material while off I know I was I was pleasantly surprised by the [TS]

  general speediness and U.I. [TS]

  Like I mean I think the P S three why is I mean it's not good but it's understandable and the B.S. [TS]

  For you I is a mild evolution of that it looks a little bit more spammy and in my face but it's fast it works. [TS]

  Gotta my wife I could use the land poor and I didn't have any problems with anything it pretty much just work. [TS]

  Download speeds are reasonable you know downloading stuff in the store works I guess like it is much better at this [TS]

  stage in its life in the two or three of us at this stage is like I can tell you that. [TS]

  Though I still endorse it over the X. [TS]

  Box One game system and not just because I have played and Microsoft tape but also because of it [TS]

  and for the national the doubters and Chiron I still believe Last Guardian will ship. [TS]

  I still believe you can't stop me. [TS]