0:00:00I was thinking quoting someone I probably know that open for five years now and then I thought better of him.
0:00:06I have upgraded my podcasting setup but I have not yet posted about it on my site has a really happened than K.Z.
0:00:14Set up upgrades in the woods and no one hears about it on your blog.
0:00:18I've spent ten dollars before taxes upgrade my podcasting setup.
0:00:23Now look at that you will not guess but I would
0:00:26but I will I would love to hear you try ten dollars for the Snickers bars.
0:00:29I'm guessing it's either software or OK or I was going to guess like a giant blanket or something
0:00:36but you sent me stills and a little bit echoey so it's probably not that.
0:00:39Now the blankets on the wall even though Aaron keeps asking me to take it down the chat room is getting in on it it is
0:00:45not a spit filter although I like that even better than populace or the microphone that I'm using now has one built in.
0:00:51Notice that gold audios table note is not a heating pad.
0:00:54Yes ten whole dollars you can google audio cable for ten dollars. Yeah exactly.
0:00:59Goalkeepers start at thirty dollars and I will give you one better. I will try just try to give this away.
0:01:04I purchased a sand dollar item from Apple. Can you produce anything for ten dollars from Apple. That's not software.
0:01:11Yeah how about that hey I was going to say fun thunderbolt out there is like nineteen.
0:01:17Yeah I mean like you can't go to the Apple store and buy anything for less than at least fifteen.
0:01:21I succeeded in doing exactly that one of them will sell for ten dollars
0:01:26and it was not software he said so it is not software was it was that it's actually regular price minutely puts in on
0:01:33sale at the stores.
0:01:35What I saw ten dollars did you get a symbol tool
0:01:38and somehow pay ten dollars for it this is much more I mean protectors are fifteen at least.
0:01:43This is much more entertaining than I thought I was going to be.
0:01:46Actually if this is become a topic of the league what can you buy an Apple store for ten seconds at a retail store
0:01:52online. Yes no not retail and the chat room the chairman's figured it out. Mag save it after ten dollars.
0:02:00Wow I've about one thousand dollars to this because they were like well we can sell something for ten dollars.
0:02:04I thought for sure it must have been like a third party product sold in an Apple Store so's your laptop won't run out
0:02:09of battery power during the podcast or something.
0:02:12I used to use my work I resident eclair twenty eleven MacBook Pro fifteen inch Macra pro
0:02:19but the fans constantly screamed no matter what I did it to matter what I did they were always screaming
0:02:24and market was very gentle about basically telling me to Shut Up and Deal and use a different computer
0:02:30and so eventually I had gotten air in a brand new MacBook Air This was a few months ago I got her for any medical care
0:02:39and I started borrowing that in order to record.
0:02:43Well unbeknownst to Marco
0:02:45and John I was doing this on battery power on wife I Omega which Dan Benjamin ever heard this he will probably fly to
0:02:53Richmond and murder me. I'm so happy you never told us that. You're welcome. That was the right call.
0:02:58Now I'm still on wife I But now at least I'm plugged into the wall.
0:03:01Now the wife I think I'm less concerned about because I know you're a nerd I know you're set up
0:03:07but I know you that you are probably right next to your router.
0:03:10I am indeed so I and wife I is not as unreliable as it used to be you know.
0:03:14Modern life is really not that bad if you're if you're anywhere near the near the base station.
0:03:20But the running on battery thing that would that would stress me out like crazy.
0:03:24But even if even if I was one hundred percent like I would always have that stress even if even if I had a fully
0:03:29charged eight hour battery it would still stress me out.
0:03:32Yep and the macro care does last an eternity
0:03:35but I kid you not those times that I told you I needed to go because my battery was dying that was not a lie.
0:03:41That's because the battery was dying and realtime follow up from me to me it was ten dollars
0:03:46and fifty two cents with tax. Oh my God That's incredible.
0:03:49And that in a while I will also say that I walked in with my dad who happen to be into time and I was all smug
0:03:57and happy with myself because he has a five S. I have a six. I was going to go in. Use the Apple Store app.
0:04:03I was going to use Apple Pay within the app and walk out and not have to speak to anyone.
0:04:09Well that would read that would mean that you could actually find this adapter on a wall display where you could get it
0:04:14and someone didn't have to go into the back or whatever and get it for you right.
0:04:17So as it turns out it was on the floor although it was on the opposite side of the store where I expected it was if you
0:04:23are looking at any given Apple store than a normal one anyway and you know the Genius Bars in the back.
0:04:27I thought I was to the right it turns out of to the left
0:04:30and so I grin Actually person had accosted me in a happy way when I walked in because it was surprisingly empty
0:04:37and they directed me to the thing
0:04:39and I said OK I'll just pay for it with the app you know in a nice way you can go away now.
0:04:44Well then I go to open the Apple Store app and it hangs
0:04:49and so I think to myself Self I'm a smart guy I know there are ID console over the place in the store.
0:04:55I wonder if having bluetooth on is somehow confusing it.
0:04:58So turn Bluetooth off Foursquare it started again nothing still hangs self.
0:05:04Maybe it realizes that the Apple Store wife is nearby you should kill the wife and that'll do the trick.
0:05:09Well then does it even work after that.
0:05:11Yeah because I have eight hundred eighty dollars and I didn't even know that you were in the Apple store.
0:05:15If it doesn't have one of those things are good point actually I didn't think about that that's a very fair point.
0:05:20So what's with the advent of the wife I started the app again did more so fine so then Julie I have to go over that to
0:05:28someone with my tail between my legs
0:05:30and say hey can I play for this please because I kind of can't do it on my phone all by myself.
0:05:33And so then for this nice person allows me to pay
0:05:39and I say to my dad not thinking really about what I was saying all my might Apple Pay moment is ruined
0:05:46and then the gentleman said Well no it's not you can pay right here
0:05:51and then because I had like the thought of I B consume my head I thought Oh and the thought of using Apple pay and how.
0:06:00I thought Oh well I guess I have to like turn bluetooth on are I and I say that out loud
0:06:04and then I realize the absurdity of what I just see like how doctors make the worst patients in a place like the worst
0:06:12Apple Pay.
0:06:13So yes so that's the thing is that I said out loud that was my critical mistake of saying it out loud I want to put
0:06:19your bluetooth on shouldn't I and then I realize the absurdity of what I said
0:06:24and he just sets his i Pod touch on the on the counter and I realize what he means
0:06:30and so I put my phone on top of his i Pod Touch which sounds awkward but it wasn't.
0:06:35And sure enough everything worked no problem.
0:06:38Well then it gets better because I start to walk away thinking Oh he'll send me my receipt no problem because they know
0:06:45what my credit card is in the home and magically I was at this exact same issue and they go to walk away
0:06:51and then the guy says Oh do you want your seat and I so you can email it to me
0:06:54and you know whatever the email is on file and he looks and he's like oh I don't have an email on file
0:06:59and at that point it occurs to me the whole freakin point Apple Pay is that I have you know the device whatever
0:07:05whatever ID So it's a unique credit card number for the device.
0:07:08Of course they don't have it because of never used it there before.
0:07:11So basically I should not be allowed in an Apple Store unsupervised as something they don't believe it is going to go
0:07:17where ss Maybe if your credit card was declined.
0:07:21Thing in the store or like where the payment didn't go through
0:07:25but you didn't know it so you started walking out of the attack by security.
0:07:28Yeah flipping a ten dollar might save it after Exactly. Anyway do you want to start with some follow up.
0:07:34We have so much well we we have a it's not a lot I WAS HE SAYS THE KING All right let's talk about transmit the app by
0:07:43panic. What happened with them John.
0:07:45So they got their projected for what was it for likes and exporting files i Cloud or something
0:07:51and we complained about in the past two shows
0:07:53and I think towards the end of our last show of the morning the State of the App Store in the various projects.
0:08:00As I said both the worst
0:08:02and the best thing that can happen is that as these people who have had their ass rejected get contacted by someone an
0:08:08apple and they quietly work out their differences
0:08:10and their apps are reinstated the best thing that happened because hey we get the apps that we wanted the application
0:08:16developers get their apps out of the store just like they wanted
0:08:20and it seems like everybody's out here it's the worst thing that can happen because this is what happens all the time.
0:08:25Like there's some there's some problem.
0:08:27A bunch of people get their apps are rejected or you know or pulled from the store.
0:08:33There's lots of blog buzz about it we all complain.
0:08:35Apple contacts them quietly worked out with them and put them back in
0:08:39and the cycle just repeats itself like you're never going to do we don't we never get a crisis unity right.
0:08:44We're never going to get it never gets bad enough that something has to be done I can't say that's necessarily the case
0:08:50this time because sometimes the outcome is that gets pulled.
0:08:54There's a whole bunch of Brest people complain
0:08:56and Apple doesn't change its mind like an example of that from the early days or be like that and like any S.M.B.
0:09:01Waiters or Mame type things are all those are things that have been on the store briefly
0:09:05and then immediately pull because you know how to do emulation or run code or stuff like that
0:09:09and Apple pretty much doesn't budge on that except for you know the scripting engines and games
0:09:13and other little gray areas that I think eventually are in the guidelines but it doesn't always turn out positively.
0:09:18But this type of thing where they make some decisions they linger we have to make a bunch of noise
0:09:23and then it gets worked out.
0:09:25That never makes anything get better like we're not making progress year
0:09:29or you know if we're making progress a cycle wouldn't keep repeating itself so that best worst thing that was going to
0:09:35happen did happen
0:09:36and I just saw someone add to the notes that didn't happen to try to transmit all the time for drafts which got pulled
0:09:41for its extension and I'm across it or talked about peek out which got rejected and then reinstated.
0:09:46So it's good in that in this case the absolutely want to see on the store actually dig in on the store eventually it's
0:09:53bad in that it seems like you know it doesn't seem like that Apple's making for.
0:10:00One of the the only hope I have is that under the new Apple regime where you know it just seems like Tim Cook is less
0:10:08stubborn.
0:10:08Tim Cook Apple seems to me to be slightly less stubborn than Steve Jobs Apple was it had to give Tim Cook as stubborn
0:10:14as Steve Jobs made Bendis projecting I don't know
0:10:16but we're going to talk about how the engineering organization has made progress in doing things that previously they
0:10:22were quote unquote too stubborn to do you know whether that was you know a corporate directive or whatever
0:10:27but for years there are things we wanted to be in they go they're never going to let you use keyboards.
0:10:32Doesn't he more than I was and they did and extensions and all of the stuff that is good forward progress
0:10:39and it could be I'm holding out hope maybe that some one higher up in the organization sent the word down to the App
0:10:47Store need to do less of the stuff
0:10:49and maybe this will be maybe the next time this happens we'll have a better faster response
0:10:54or maybe this won't happen again in the same way I don't know I mean people will have to wait
0:10:58but for some reason I find myself slightly more optimistic even though the best thing that happened if i'm a slightly
0:11:04out of the team because going to be like why do we keep seeing all these stories about this stuff.
0:11:10Why can't we get our act together on that you know what is it what it was
0:11:13or that we're doing that's making us do these things in the reversing ourselves obviously we're not even happy with our
0:11:18own decisions because not like they're reversing I don't think because of pressure.
0:11:22It's you know it's like inattention.
0:11:24You know the knowledge evil of inattention where it's like there's something going on there did somebody reject
0:11:32something why would they look at that
0:11:33and by the time people take a look at them like Oh this is panic they're great why we've taken of this this thing is
0:11:38just fine you know like they reversed because if the best minds in the company were put on it they never would have
0:11:43rejected in the first place just to reject it because of you know the whims of some individual or a view
0:11:47or something and that is a structural problem the fact that that kind of thing can happen
0:11:51and not be resolved without a long time passing anyway so there you go. Well and this is a little bit.
0:12:00Better a full on rejection is a little bit better than what some developers go through.
0:12:05Marc Christian wrote me a little while ago a few a couple weeks ago saying that you know he's he's one of the
0:12:11developers of the drag and drop that's D R A G O N D R O P which I've mentioned a long time ago on the show
0:12:17when he says he wrote in he said I have another idea or excuse me another app in the store called time bar
0:12:22when I tried to publish an update for your sanity after a few decided the fundamental idea of the app is unacceptable
0:12:27and I think that's because it kind of paints the menu bar as a progress meter
0:12:32and the idea of this app I guess is to count down and tell you to like get up or and walk around
0:12:37or maybe you know that the turkey's done or what have you on
0:12:40and Anyway so after you decided that the fundamental idea the app is unacceptable it violates the Mac's menu bar
0:12:45and rejected me.
0:12:46So he's stuck in limbo because it isn't kicked out of the store but he can't updated
0:12:53and that's an even worse place to be then a full on rejection as far as I'm concerned
0:12:59and you know get the hell out of here
0:13:01but I mean I guess maybe that's what panic had to deal with I don't know I guess so maybe that is the same
0:13:06when you can always pull your own app right.
0:13:08Yeah I mean I just did so
0:13:10and it is you know it's different on the mac because you don't have to use the mac app store you know
0:13:14and I was right if you have that limit I was like your product is just dead like you will you will never be able to do
0:13:19that product again and in that way
0:13:22and I feel less bad for mac developers in this regard just because there is another option there
0:13:30and it's not it's not a bad option where the I O. S. Option is like well you can put it on the city a store.
0:13:36Yeah that's like that like I was one of like you know we can go live in the woods. Nothing like that is not a business.
0:13:45Please you know Casey if you disagree but I think that it's important that when when you
0:13:49when we hear things like transmit
0:13:51and drafts getting getting there they're bad decisions reversed you know the reason why we were mad about this is.
0:14:00Not that we disagreed with the rule.
0:14:03I mean some of us might disagree with the rule but that's not the main reason why this is so destructive.
0:14:08The main reason why it's so destructive is that we can't tell in advance what the rules will be
0:14:13and Apple's refusal to document more of these rules.
0:14:17And again part of that is just because they haven't decided it yet and I recognize that that's an issue.
0:14:22But part of it also is like at the very top of the rules document says this is a living document
0:14:26and it's been pretty dead for a long time. Like it there's a lot of rules that are better not on it.
0:14:31A lot of new rules that have that have seemingly no intention of ever getting on to it.
0:14:37And it just seems like you know
0:14:38when Apple does things with many of the rules it just seems like well that makes that that makes sense like it's common
0:14:45sense. Or you can see why they're doing it like that's a sensible rule.
0:14:50It's not you can't really argue too much with it or you at least see their point of view and you can predict
0:14:55when developing an apple like launcher.
0:14:58I totally get that that was going to be rejected because they had a longstanding rule against kind of these these like
0:15:05like home screen kind of like home screen within an app siloed apps launcher like that like they've had a lot of issues
0:15:12with those in the past.
0:15:13So there are certain rules that like the that the developers all know like OK you know this idea for an app before you
0:15:19can start building it. This will almost certainly get rejected so I shouldn't build it.
0:15:24The problem is when the rules start getting really capricious and unpredictable
0:15:27and unjustifiable then developers start wasting time or actually shipping apps first
0:15:35and then they get rich later which hurt their relationship with their customers in addition to waiting all the time of
0:15:39having that being go you know it's pretty bad
0:15:42when developers waste a month on something that they're pretty sure is going to get approved.
0:15:46The worst part is that it's like Apple doesn't speak with one voice on any of these things I mean the reversals are not
0:15:54because they change their mind but just because the corporation as a whole.
0:16:00Believes that panic that should be allowed
0:16:02but the people who are tasked the individuals who it has a decision at that particular time said no so what I was
0:16:08thinking of is you know well what if we had you know if you have a questionable app
0:16:13or feature idea as part of your definition above you get two or three of these you know sort of a technical support
0:16:18and then you can say ask Apple I am playing a feature like this and it is described to be very written a line of code.
0:16:26Will this be allowed in the store
0:16:28and have a system whereby if they say yes it will be allowed in the store that you have some reasonable hope that that
0:16:34answer is meaningful in any way. Well that's hard though barring a rule change.
0:16:40If you were to ask you know like the same type people who came out of the decision now to say you transmit is allowed
0:16:47in the store with that feature. Right.
0:16:48When faced with this question hey there's a feature that same group of people whoever they are were faced with the same
0:16:54question before panicking or in a single line of code.
0:16:56and said We're thinking about this feature to transmit it's going to X. Y. and Z.
0:17:02Is that going to be allowed those same people hopefully could come up with the same answer six months ago.
0:17:06Like I don't think that much has changed since then and so yeah go ahead build that or you know
0:17:10or just be able to ask them how to time
0:17:13but the idea now is like if I can get somebody now we're going to ask them depending on who I get an adverb you the
0:17:18answer means nothing because if I get a different person on my app interviewed
0:17:20and they don't share information oh yeah I said that I could do that feature and it's OK.
0:17:24Or like even if the answer is we don't know yet and we have to like sort of regroup and have a big meeting
0:17:29and decide whether it's like do that before hand.
0:17:31Like ideally before you even write the guidelines
0:17:34and put in the guidelines for something they never thought of like we never consider this because that can happen we
0:17:39never even considered doing this in an application.
0:17:41We'll get back to you and then you're kind of in a holding pattern Middle East you're not like either just guessing
0:17:47or like asking the best sources you have
0:17:49and them them telling you probably yes no maybe those mean nothing right the idea that the company can't decide can't
0:17:57can't speak with one voice on this there is no one voice there is.
0:18:00No and I know there's millions of app developers in the everything one can be bugging out on thing
0:18:03and I have this vision of that's why I'm saying like you had to be a limited resource like to have the boardings in
0:18:07and because there's a cost associated with it and so on and so forth
0:18:10but I think this is a system that could work if again Apple could get its act together with apps or stuff and
0:18:17and some of the things like you know the situation that
0:18:19and think of some of these things like sending a father drive like people were baffled because like Margaret said well
0:18:26it's not because we didn't like the rule in this case.
0:18:28What rule what you know the rule they were signed didn't even mention i Cloud Drive in the second thing is everyone
0:18:32said is that the whole point of i Cloud Drive maybe Remus understand what my micro drive was the greatest let's build
0:18:37the sent file that like it's a thought you know it just doesn't make any sense
0:18:41and clearly you know the so-called living document has been updated to reflect all the new things we've got like
0:18:48there's no new clauses or anything in there for all these features that we got and I was eight.
0:18:52I'm still going to say that Apple's dealing with server side software and services is worse than this
0:18:58but this is probably the App Store the I was out store
0:19:02and I guess the magnets are too are their worst external externally visible administrative problems in the company.
0:19:08I think these kind of decisions are usually not like one random reviewer somewhere usually if it escalated
0:19:16or at least a couple of miles from my understanding from what I'm kind of hearing rumblings of this is a mid level
0:19:23fight with an apple like it's a mid-level conflict between mid-level department.
0:19:28Well you know there are always mid-level things but like when a mid-level thing like when stories start coming out
0:19:32and when people are writing blog post that becomes that becomes the message of the day is Apple did something bad
0:19:39and we're angry about it.
0:19:40Eventually those mid-level fights start to filter up to the higher level the higher level go what's going on down there
0:19:46with you guys I saw some stories about this thing I think nobody likes bad press nobody likes that you know
0:19:51and if it gets up to their level then all of a sudden you know whoever it is a more senior vice president goes down to
0:19:57mid-level people and says you know get your stuff together. Well what the hell are you guys doing.
0:20:01Work it out when your internal problems end up you know on the pages of you know tech news sites we have a problem
0:20:09and if that happens too many times.
0:20:10Hopefully somebody really high up will be like we have a we have a structural problem here
0:20:16and we need to sort this out like seem like it seems like they did sort out and decide to do in the engineering side.
0:20:22They made massive structural changes that have resulted in what we feel on the outside is positive change right.
0:20:29Right
0:20:29and you can tell like you know we right now nothing is resolved you know with the transmit getting approved getting
0:20:35reproved.
0:20:36This doesn't actually resolve anything it will resolve this is if we stop hearing about things like this where is like
0:20:42oh surprise there's Rule No one could have predicted and we're going to half
0:20:45and force it with some apps like that's the problem here.
0:20:48So this I hope that that that that that upgrade that happened in engineering got them to increase collaboration you
0:20:56know in Tim Cook's words.
0:20:57I hope they can apply that to this area too because clearly this is not like one rogue employee making bad decisions
0:21:04this is clearly an ongoing conflict within you know in the middle of these organizations that somebody has to resolve
0:21:11and it's not going to resolve itself at levels it's it's at.
0:21:15Obviously there's some kind of back and forth going on here that that's not good.
0:21:18We didn't even talk about this last time but some we had a link
0:21:21and last week it was about that post where I think it was someone quoting from you they're quoting from are like
0:21:28recalling what someone told them over the phone
0:21:30and the idea was that this is a guy I think this is here is this hearsay about going to launch a developer right at the
0:21:36App Store people said we rejected your app because it's a high profile app
0:21:40and we figured by rejecting your app you know a lot of people notice
0:21:44and it will get the message out to the rest of the developers that they shouldn't do things like you've done like they
0:21:47were making an example of you like that's there someone supposedly articulated this philosophy of App Store of how we
0:21:55communicate our policies we don't write them into guidelines. Instead we take a high profile up and make an example.
0:22:00It's all the other application developers see it head on the pot on a pike
0:22:03and you know know not to go there anymore no don't do it this developer did which is a it's amazing some of it said out
0:22:09loud to a developer and B.
0:22:11Even if that's your secret strategy it's a terrible secret strategy like that is not the correct way to communicate to
0:22:17your application developers there are better ways.
0:22:20Yeah that's what I call disgusting on my blog because it's like that a really truly disgusting
0:22:24and yet so it was the developer of launcher I think his name is Greg and will a lot of people they don't
0:22:30and yet he was paraphrasing the the conversation he had with likes like a reviewer called him in response to some of
0:22:38these inquiries.
0:22:39That's what they do and you inquire
0:22:41and then if you're lucky you get like a random phone does what I said the agents meant phone call you get like a random
0:22:46phone call from somebody who usually you don't get a name
0:22:49or any way like contact them again this is a one way ones coming from like the main Apple switchboard number like you
0:22:56can and then you can do about it.
0:22:58And they're usually very terse like they I've done a couple these calls for various questions I've asked
0:23:04or issues are going to end
0:23:06and usually they're pretty terse that because they know that there's a good chance they're going to be quoted
0:23:11and put on a blog somewhere and so you know they can serve words
0:23:15and they were very noncommittal with many things they say.
0:23:18And occasionally you'll get somebody who is a little bit more helpful
0:23:22and he did think they were a little too thoughtful in explaining you know why they're doing some of these things
0:23:28and if that is true I mean you know we don't have any validation we will never get any validation from Apple whether
0:23:34this is true or not I don't think he has any reason to lie about it
0:23:37and even if he's exaggerating about it it's even then it's still pretty terrible.
0:23:42And those people who call those are mid-level people that's not the person spent six minutes with with you know ten
0:23:48thousand apps a day like that that is a mid-level manager you're talking to that's like through the app the approved
0:23:54review board or whatever they call it that like that's where that phone call comes from. So anything they say.
0:24:00They usually is pretty credible as the current policy of preview
0:24:06and overthrow here say because we're going by what the developer says that someone from Apple said song just under
0:24:10saying this is not a confirmed thing.
0:24:12No
0:24:13but I'm saying I'm sure you know the nitty gritty details are probably suspect because you know people have bad memories.
0:24:20I don't know if you record of the call.
0:24:21Probably not but the big picture like the general idea is probably right
0:24:27and if the person who called him said that that is not the actions of just one little employee somewhere buried in
0:24:35Apple that the actions of a mid-level person and that's that substantial.
0:24:39So I'm all depressed now so why don't you tell me about something that's really cool. Absolutely.
0:24:44So we have something a little bit special this week a song sponsor this is a song instead of me doing a sponsor read
0:24:52not a fish song or that they know it it is way better than that it is a Jonathan Mann song. Oh that is way better.
0:24:59Yeah see we got it we got to go in this time. This is this is for dash dash dot com I give you a quick story.
0:25:06So I met Scott a rally from from dash at Singleton this year he came to me the Hi I'm I'm the guy from dash
0:25:15and for the first twenty
0:25:17or thirty seconds that conversation I thought he was the guy who made the developer documentation app dash which is why
0:25:26I haven't run an act I was going to guess Mrs Dash and he was not salty.
0:25:32The first twenty
0:25:33or thirty seconds I said some things they were like that probably did not make any sense to him at all like looking
0:25:40back on it it was pretty embarrassing and really embarrassing thing is I never corrected it.
0:25:44Like I never said oh I'm sorry I thought you were that other guy just kind of.
0:25:47Once I realized it I just kind of roll with it. So I'm here I am.
0:25:51During the Iran first going to apologize to him publicly because I still haven't told him that.
0:25:56So this is my my coming out on that. And second of all he was such a nice.
0:26:00Guy that even if you thought I was saying didn't quite make sense he didn't let on at all he does roll with it
0:26:05and he did as far as I can tell I was not busted there. So if you knew he was nice enough not to embarrass me anyway.
0:26:14He's a really nice guy
0:26:15and so here it is the Johnson Man Song for dash dash dot com will get where you can delete create real time dashboards
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0:27:26You'll be able to get back to you know cause paid back better.
0:27:40So thanks a lot to the dash dot com Go there and check out dash it's pretty cool
0:27:47and yeah the Guy Rundle Scott is really really nice.
0:27:51Thanks a lot to today go to the dash dot com All right so the whole of the Internet has sent us.
0:28:00Link with regard to cross the road which I almost called Cross Seeburg.
0:28:04It was built by two Victorians and your son who is twenty four and Matthew Hall who is thirty nine
0:28:10and among other things they said that the game has generated enough for them to retire. Quote seven figures is correct.
0:28:19One of them said.
0:28:20So that answers the question as to whether or not they're making any money on this game
0:28:25and it sounds like the answer is yeah.
0:28:27Oh yeah I mean to be fair my original statement when they were positioned that like number five top free app.
0:28:34But number two hundred top grossing my original statement was that basically it was it was probably out of proportion
0:28:40that they were not really making as much money as they probably should with that level of free downloads
0:28:45and then of course last week after a couple of updates changed it and dramatically improve their rank.
0:28:51So yeah good job for them.
0:28:52The most interesting thing in the story is that they were who assisted one of the developers are saying the quote we
0:28:58always wanted to build the popular game but we didn't think we could build a game that could generate money.
0:29:03Everyone else in the industry will tell you that you need to squeeze people need to do this and that
0:29:07and get some things behind a paywall you're told that if you're not making Clash of Clans Clash of Clans clone you're
0:29:11doing it wrong.
0:29:12I feel very very strongly of there are other ways of doing so they have the same doubts about why can we make a game
0:29:17that isn't annoying that monetize is a nice way.
0:29:20They you know they want to make a popular game
0:29:22but they didn't think they could build a popular game they were actually Jari money because they didn't want to do all
0:29:26the scummy things that all of us free to play games do. And a feel good story because they made a great game.
0:29:33They did it the way they wanted with extremely gentle monetization and they made a lot of money
0:29:39and you know as Mark said they could have made even more money
0:29:42but once that once you're into another money to retire I think they're going to enjoy their retirement a lot more
0:29:48having made a game that they're proud of rather than having even double the money.
0:29:53But just feeling bad about the way they got it because they seem like that kind of people one of developers that it
0:29:58took him.
0:30:00Only say six weeks to get all the characters just by playing the game like not paying any money
0:30:05and he said other people done in two weeks so they made this game and they knew it was both possible
0:30:08and probably pretty darn fun to not pay a cent and play the game
0:30:12and yet they're still on that up making tons of money because I mean half of it is make a really good game
0:30:17and the other half is making make a really good game that happens to get some traction in the market
0:30:22and you kind any Both of those but making a really good game helps a lot. Yeah definitely.
0:30:27And like you said it is a happy story and
0:30:30and that really does make me feel good for not having to pay to take you know I still have to pay for it because I
0:30:35don't I just play with the black sheep all the time and I want an example machine and I said I should
0:30:41but I should give some money for it eventually I don't know
0:30:43and no one my family for my kids have paid my wife has found out that
0:30:47when you get the the trial thing where it shows you hate try out these three characters for a limited time.
0:30:53She tells me that
0:30:54when they offer them to you the discounted price that you can pay for them with the little coins that you get for free
0:31:00so you don't have to put in the actual money in it
0:31:01and it is still quote unquote by characters that are offered to you for a trial which is yet another way that they're
0:31:07not getting money from you as they take up these fake coins in the game
0:31:10and use the points about the characters no real money ever passed to us at all.
0:31:14Yeah it really is surprising but it shows that it can be done. Which is which is really exciting.
0:31:20Tell us about your Play Station four in D L N A support.
0:31:24Yeah I was complaining about how how crappy the P S four is media centrifuges are compared to the P S three that was
0:31:30kind of part of the fact that the P.S. or Was like no this is a game machine is not a mere sound like the X.
0:31:35Box One like it's kind of a differentiator.
0:31:37It's also probably a prior prioritisation thing where like Sony was conjoining of making the best console for playing
0:31:42games hardware wise and if that's your priority you're going to put all that stuff off.
0:31:48Alberto Sandra sent a tweet that said the rumor is that support is coming in early twenty fifteen
0:31:54and that the hold up was it was waiting for a final certification a new deal and I expect that I could have it also.
0:32:00Another reason is being delayed but I'm glad to hear that it's coming
0:32:03and then it was the first person to tweet me the story that Plex is coming for P S four.
0:32:09In fact depending on what country you live in a mayor to be out for the P S four it's not out yet for the U.S.
0:32:14Because as plex says on the link in the show notes Sony has multiple business units to cover different regions
0:32:20and to the business units need to approve the app.
0:32:23And so people processes don't all go in sync
0:32:25and I think Sony struggles are preoccupied with things at this point anyway
0:32:30but waiting for them to approve the flex app for the U.S.
0:32:33Store and once that is available I don't know of the can be free or pay or what
0:32:36but anyway plex will be on the P S four which can make sense and an Intel processor
0:32:40and places that are available for a million other things anyway.
0:32:42So multiple media related features are on their way for the P S four and I am happy about it
0:32:49and we never found a compatible Bluetooth remote did we.
0:32:52Nonsense when I asked and no one has sent me any tweets
0:32:55or anything about a couple people have said their harmony remote works with it.
0:32:58If you want to buy our interim world didn't world in the chat says apologies for recommending a harmony apparently it's
0:33:04limited aka no playback controls.
0:33:06Other people tweeted at me that like this someone said hey I use my harmony with it
0:33:10and I tweeted them which was the exact model that you have and didn't get a reply.
0:33:15I mean like I said there are solutions where you can buy a little you know U.S.B. I.R.
0:33:20Dongle or something and shove it in there and then but all those get better views and I don't want that anyway.
0:33:23But yeah no no rumors of a meteor mode yet
0:33:26but of the media center features first I guess enough in the last episode I think it was
0:33:34or certainly recently we talked about Twitter and creepiness
0:33:37and this is spoken about kind of violently on a recent episode of connected.
0:33:42On really fam
0:33:44and a little birdie told us that they had Twitter in their offices for a few hours in the last couple of weeks
0:33:52and supposedly Twitter said they had over twenty million devices that opted into that creepy thing where the.
0:34:00We're Apple scanned what other apps are on your device.
0:34:03So if you hear if you have the latest Twitter app
0:34:06or version you could have opted out of this apparently I have never I haven't run the official Twitter app and ages
0:34:13but the little like canceller or X. or Whatever was so small that everyone literally just missed it.
0:34:20But apparently according to Twitter according to this little birdie it was done entirely to build up some new ad
0:34:29targeting capability the rolling out next year.
0:34:32And with regard to what John was saying about well maybe Apple's going to do something about this
0:34:39but either because Twitter's big or maybe they can't because Twitter's big.
0:34:43Well apparently they're the number five globally ranked Iowa SAP And so Apple is extremely aware of what Twitter's up
0:34:50to all that from a little birdie aware.
0:34:53But then it's like OK so they're talking the like you know that you know you know that I'm going to just be like well
0:34:58you know some some mid-level person that's going to pull the Twitter out that sounds like these are very more higher
0:35:02level negotiations between the companies to discuss what they're after doing and to work out something.
0:35:07I'm hoping that's happening now.
0:35:08If it's not then Apple is dropping the ball because there is not paying attention you know or they see it happening
0:35:14and don't care and figure well if people don't know
0:35:16but I don't I don't I can't fathom the strategy like it so if this whole thing is just so at odds with everything else
0:35:22they do we just talked about the Apple Pay stuff now
0:35:25and not sending in the information Katie would like to share with the Apple store as his you know complete anonymity
0:35:32and you know we don't like your data we won't let the N.S.A.
0:35:34Look at your messages you know all this all the stuff and then
0:35:37but will lead to a scan every tab on your thing a report back read targeting like that.
0:35:42It's crazy when it's important to clarify too that it isn't just Twitter that does this.
0:35:48There are lots of other there are ad packages out there at Analyst packages that that many apps integrate that do the
0:35:54same kind of like super creepy scanning for all the apps you have and stopping and that's what I think.
0:36:00Really I think Apple should care about this problem because of this it last week.
0:36:04It does violate the perceived walls that exist between apps
0:36:08and I alas like I as a user assume that apps can't creep on each other like that they can look around
0:36:15and see everything else on your system and they can't see your data.
0:36:19But even the list of ads you have installed that can do things like probably pretty easily uniquely identify you within
0:36:27like maybe an IP range
0:36:28and so all these all these different things Apple's trying to do to reduce the ways they can uniquely identify you
0:36:33between app and stalls.
0:36:34Those are out the window are between us from the same manner those are all out the window all the president fire stuff
0:36:38like that.
0:36:39So you know Apple has done things in this area before the show that they care about this problem I would say this is a
0:36:44similar facet to that problem of user privacy expectations and device tracking and uniqueness there
0:36:53and so I I hope Apple is thinking about taking steps in the OAS to make this technically impossible
0:36:59or at least substantially more limited than how it is now.
0:37:03Anyway also related to this I said last week that I was seven and forward MAC addresses were returned as all zeros.
0:37:11The best Q.A. Engineer ever met Nick Arnott who knows how to break everything that I write.
0:37:16Also broke that statement points out that it's close but it's actually zero two followed by all zeros.
0:37:26It's mostly zero there's a single two in there.
0:37:30Thank you to Nick are not for finding the little bugs me I said once again mostly zeroes means a non-zero sum like.
0:37:38Yes I don't know that's right.
0:37:41Sorry I have not attended one of those in a while I don't know why don't you tell us about the Google authenticator app
0:37:51that you are overjoyed with two groups of three. So this is the Google authenticator after you run they give you your.
0:38:00Little time based two factor authentication code is just got a set of six digit number that changes every thirty
0:38:06seconds or whatever the interval is and so when you log in with two factor authentication Can you name your password
0:38:11and give you a challenge is that into your code then you take your trusted device like your phone or whatever
0:38:16and you read this number off the six digit number and if you read the number off
0:38:20and I've been in a lot of boxes as you tend to do when you first enable it.
0:38:25It's not so bad after that you find it annoying that it you have to transcribe six digit number under mild time
0:38:32pressure.
0:38:33Although sometimes I was absent I get worse because I was recently use an i OS app where it challenges you with the
0:38:39code
0:38:40but if you're Google authenticator is on the same device of course then you have to either double tap home of it's in
0:38:44the multitasking switcher
0:38:45or singled out palm to go you know to go to Google a hundred years to get the number look at the number.
0:38:50Now you have to memorize the number because you have to switch back to the other apps you memorize the number.
0:38:56Switch back to the other app I want to do that with this one app I forget what it was if I would resume the other app
0:39:02and it would immediately take me back to the username
0:39:04and password screen away from the inn so then I was under time pressure based on how much time was left to enter on the
0:39:12ice cube or would know autocomplete my username and my password which are pretty darn long
0:39:16and then enter that six digit code.
0:39:18But my complaint many many shows ago I don't remember
0:39:20when was that Google authenticator app presents a six digit number
0:39:25and does not present it is two groups of three numbers they just did a six digit number all stuck together which is
0:39:30crazy because it's like the U.S.B.
0:39:33Connector all those things like if if your job is to make this application
0:39:37and if what this application does is display a six page number like what do you even think about it how can I do my job
0:39:45well think you know your only job is to display a number. Your only job is to make you connect.
0:39:50What is it that makes you a connector What is it that makes it easy to to look at
0:39:53and transcribe a three digit number you always break belong armors into groups
0:39:57or even credit card numbers are broken up into groups of four like a phone.
0:40:00It's like you don't just put all the numbers together. Six is too many.
0:40:03So anyway Alexandra I do Hill tweeted at me that the new updates to Google authenticator app has two groups of three
0:40:11numbers. Finally And then later in the day it remains one of his last name.
0:40:16Morey myself Scott had thought the same as my sister EON but different way.
0:40:21Romaine said that
0:40:22when I worked at Google last year after listening to on your pod cast I filed a feature request for breaking up the
0:40:27digits into a fan to get or I was that glad to see they finally paid out.
0:40:31So whether this is directly related to his bitter request
0:40:34or not I think Romain greatly for connecting the dots connecting my complaining to an actual feature request inside
0:40:40Google and then many months later now finally I get two groups of three numbers that is fantastic.
0:40:48So your life is complete. Everything is right in the world.
0:40:51Well it's not like I get annoyed about these things all out of proportion because people are going to you out of one
0:40:57job dot org It's not kind of like you had one job
0:40:59but just like if you think at all about doing some simple job well like you had to burn a big white board what are the
0:41:06things that contribute to me doing my job well.
0:41:10Like on the connector What are the properties of a good idea versus bad just even just think about it for a second
0:41:15or less like the top five like a family feud over you know it's
0:41:18and for showing numbers like there's not that many things make sure the numbers are readable like it's just numbers you
0:41:23don't have to worry about like to the oh look like a zero or any other OS It just all you've got is numbers
0:41:28and you don't have to take anything else about it already six digits you know everything about it.
0:41:32They did stuff like make it flash red when it's about to expire like all subtle things like that
0:41:36but nowhere did they think you know what six digits shoved all together is kind of hard to transcribe
0:41:40or memorize a reason we did two groups or three will be a lot easier
0:41:44and it's not like people are unfamiliar with grouping and anyway it's done now I'm done complaining I'm happy if you
0:41:49and I will say once again ever and I think I should not be using the word
0:41:54and together I should be using whatever their favorite app is I know about it.
0:42:00There also sponsored this week by Lynda dot com L Y N D A dot com slash A.T.P.
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0:43:59apple developer. Oh Graham I have never used a D.T.S. Ticket because you get I think it's two years I really do.
0:44:07I think that's right but I'm not sure I've been developing a regular devil developer since two thousand and eight
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0:46:00They thought
0:46:00when the Congress Monsour once again Mike you are in the chat room reminds me that if I'm doing the authentication code
0:46:06I was I could just copy
0:46:07and paste the code rather than memorizing it I'm so accustomed to only using the authenticator I have to like enter it
0:46:14on my mac or something and yes and I could use a copy pasting
0:46:17or as I can tell you I could name to check out one of those because that that frustrates me a lot like
0:46:20when I have my own life my I was there I thought I want to transfer time
0:46:23and I know the million utilities that do that synchronization but I never quite get around to loading.
0:46:28But anyway I hope you find a good one and I've also I've always intended to set something like that up
0:46:32and just never actually do it.
0:46:33Well whatever happened to pay spot because that was amazing when it first came out
0:46:37and I don't even think it works anymore.
0:46:39Well originally the problem they had was that you had to get a launch piece
0:46:42but in order to get it to to copy because I remember they were the ones I believe yeah who did the silence.
0:46:48Yeah yeah yeah that's right try to keep running in the background.
0:46:50But now that's not a problem anymore and assume all the good ones out there just you know do it as a background thing.
0:46:54Well you still can't you store not running the back on consulates
0:46:57or playing not yelling I could build that into over just as if you had to be playing a pod cast it will continuously
0:47:05think you're doing an extension I was I just flick up
0:47:09or go to you know like seems like there's other ways to have to do today center which I don't have to reject you.
0:47:15Yeah so let's talk about hockey and I don't mean the sport.
0:47:20So Microsoft acquired hockey app and that's weird but kind of awesome.
0:47:27I really like the Microsoft that azure like has spawned from in so far as they're not the old guard way
0:47:39or if it's not Windows not office then get the crap out of here.
0:47:42It's the new year all things to all people kind of Microsoft and I'm not sure what the play is with regard to hockey
0:47:50but I like the thinking there I like the idea
0:47:53and I think it's a really good idea that could fit in really well with their existing Ascherman. Services offerings.
0:48:02So I really dig it in principle but I was curious to hear what the two you especially Marco thought about this.
0:48:07Can you be firm
0:48:08and then can you explain it to me because I know hockey only because I've been on betas that use hockey have to
0:48:14distribute the beta versions of their I was happy to me but I don't understand what Microsoft would do with this.
0:48:21They distribute beta versions of Windows Phone apps does Maki already do that I don't I don't understand the synergy
0:48:28here at all.
0:48:29But I confess that I just don't know what Hawking maybe has done over the gab does besides
0:48:33but I've used it for was installed better than I was and to be clear that's all I've used it for
0:48:37but the way I'm theorizing this is that Microsoft is kind of quietly especially with Azure specifically trying to be
0:48:44kind of a one stop shop for off all the backend stuff with regard to mobile apps.
0:48:49So mobile services seems to do a really good job with you know hey we'll give you a decent A.P.I.
0:48:57To do some basic stuff like I think that you can. They give you an A.P.I.
0:49:01That will make it really easy to do user accounts based off of Twitter or Facebook they make.
0:49:06There's a bunch other things that they got in there I haven't looked at in a while
0:49:10but my guess is they're trying to make it so that if you are writing like let's say I thought about writing a shared
0:49:18grocery list app and I don't want any more recommendations of what's yours I've got it under control
0:49:23but in the same way John doesn't need any more recommendations about effective stuff.
0:49:27What I'd like to write that sort of app
0:49:30but I need to have a way of doing doing user accounts I need to have a database back
0:49:34and I need to have some sort of web based A.P.I. and I would need to distribute beta builds.
0:49:40Well three of these things I could do on Azure
0:49:44and the beta builds all soon be able to do want to answer if that's what envelops hockey app so I'm assuming they're
0:49:50trying to be a one stop shop for anything that isn't on the device that your mobile app would need in order to be
0:49:56successful. But this is a type of.
0:50:00Where that Apple doesn't play nice with anymore which is if you're doing something that is like a platform function
0:50:09like I want to write a compiler that lets you build I was absent
0:50:12or I want to you know write I mean you know write write something lets you manage the assets for your application
0:50:17or build your interfaces
0:50:19or you know anything having to do with development stack a couple ones own they own the idea they made their own
0:50:25compiler like they are all the tools you know verification tools code signing tools like it's all Apple stuff
0:50:32and beta distribution Apple bought tests like you know
0:50:35and before that like it's just not that I was going to go out of the way to break up now because they didn't before
0:50:40anyway.
0:50:42And it's relying on technologies that Apple is making it
0:50:44but if you were I would not sign up to try to make a tool that supports the Apple ecosystem for developing applications
0:50:53because I would just know that even if I'm allowed to live my time is limited because either Apple will start making a
0:51:01free competitor to me
0:51:02or they'll do something that breaks my thing without any pity visibility never been a demand first place not
0:51:08intentionally but it still does happen like that is a that is a very dangerous business to be in these days you know.
0:51:15I may get something from Microsoft as well.
0:51:16They care they get enough revenue to support this type of effort
0:51:19but I guess that's kind of part of the acquisitions like once Apple bought test flight it's like Well Apple has decided
0:51:26what they're going to do about this because there was you know there are these third party utilities into this thing
0:51:30that Apple wasn't doing so Apple could have developed their own thing and also they could have got somebody
0:51:33when they buy somebody had to say well they bought somebody in a war than us.
0:51:37So now it's time to sell to whoever else wants to buy us and it was Microsoft. Yeah I mean it's important to point out.
0:51:44Hockey does other things beyond just the beta stuff.
0:51:48For instance they have their crash reporting tool but not great on a crash log and send it in from the app
0:51:54and everything and they also have you know obviously the cross-platform stuff so.
0:52:00There is still some value even if they can't develop betas to Apple anymore
0:52:05or they can ship atest Apple devices more it's less value certainly
0:52:10and they are they are never going to be able to match what the new Apple test flight does because an apple test flight
0:52:15completely does away with you knowing you the ideas and you just get you get e-mail address people
0:52:21and it lets them install your app and all the devices.
0:52:24Well they have the adventure they will hopefully be able to be more reliable
0:52:27and responsive than Apple because right so right now so as soon as Apple test light thing came out I canceled my hockey
0:52:33plan
0:52:33and never uses again because I don't need it for the crash reporting because the other has I use crash from a crash reporting
0:52:41crash Linux also has a beta shipping product.
0:52:44They also have analytics
0:52:46and Twitter bottom doing crash reporting is in this exact same category I want you know a nice symbolic crash reports
0:52:54with all sorts of information. I OS doesn't provide it for me natively I'll use crash Linux right.
0:52:59Like that's exactly the type of tool that's like something that Apple should do there's a gap a third party comes in to
0:53:04fill that gap is able to succeed in till unless Apple either buys them buys a competitor
0:53:10or does something else that makes it so you know so that everybody stops using them
0:53:15and uses whatever Apple is officially blessed in theory yes in practice most of the time Apple does things like this.
0:53:22The apple version sucks.
0:53:24It is with a crash reporter erode the adversion often does suck
0:53:27but once the Apple version exists at all then there is even greater chance that the way the third parties are doing it
0:53:35will become less supported or break
0:53:37or whatever because Apple then has a good story like oh we're sorry we didn't mean to break that or whatever
0:53:42but it's not really a high priority for us to make sure that it's working because we do have our own offering
0:53:47and have you checked it out and then you could say yeah but you know things but no
0:53:51but I mean theoretically that's been the case for a long time.
0:53:53But in practice like I like i Tunes Connect has include crash logs since before.
0:54:00Existed since all of these crash loggers that came out all all have come out after Apple has included crash logs
0:54:07and i Tunes connect.
0:54:08Originally the items in the graphic were delayed by a like a week and they were never symbolic
0:54:14and you had to lay down limits while giving yourself and I think some of that has been improved since then
0:54:19but it's still also they have to they have to abide by the by the system setting that says Do you want to send
0:54:24diagnostics to Apple and app developers
0:54:27and if you say no to that you won't get crap like from them to write in to connect.
0:54:30But your app doesn't know about that said they can't read that setting even if you wanted to
0:54:35and so your app bypasses that and the any crash log or that you embed in the app like Crash links or hockey.
0:54:43Those will say regardless so you're getting more data from more people faster.
0:54:47You're just hoping with those type of schools that you are below the note This feature is below the notice of Apple
0:54:52like Apple has bigger fish to fry.
0:54:54They're not going to worry about making a much better crash reporting thing because they have something there
0:54:59and you know like on their priority list to really low down.
0:55:02Eventually you have to think they will get to it
0:55:04and this is the history of mac software has been some third party make something cool
0:55:09and it seems like Apple would never do something like better is not interested in something like that.
0:55:14Sometimes these little things get snapped up relatively quickly.
0:55:17Like for the old timers out there the clock in the menu bar was a third party application
0:55:23and fairly quickly I think it was maybe less than a year maybe was only a couple years the fairly quickly.
0:55:28Apple said they caught him in your bar is a good idea. We should build that into the O. S.
0:55:33Right so that's the end of you know.
0:55:36Well not the end of their party clocks in the menu bars
0:55:38but for most people at the end of their party like so many people those use the built in one right.
0:55:44And other times they'll be something that third parties make that everybody loves that Apple just doesn't do it for
0:55:50years and years and years either because they are just like philosophically opposed to it
0:55:55or because it's a frivolous thing that they're not they don't care that much about their much higher price.
0:56:00He's the crash reporting it seems to me that eventually they'll get around to making their crash reporting thing better
0:56:08so it's closer to the third party ones out there
0:56:11but it hasn't happened in what how many you know how many years of these things been out a couple years like six it's
0:56:16been a lot of years.
0:56:17Must be I mean to be fair if you had to make a prioritized list of things that I'd like to work on in terms of
0:56:22developing for the Magen I like you probably One progress reporting very high on things like code signing
0:56:27and provisioning and
0:56:29and beta stuff I mean so that's why is obviously the better thing to be concentrating on right now
0:56:35but it's a difficult business.
0:56:38The range between like what what's the what's the best third party crasher Porter that you that is possible to build
0:56:45given the structure that we have an I O.
0:56:46Us versus what's the best part reporter Apple can
0:56:50or is likely to ever build like there isn't a whole lot of room for improvement there.
0:56:55The crash reporters like between talking trash with X.
0:56:58I've used them both now I first use hockey for Caster in the beta and I was at your request with X.
0:57:03It's I'd say they're pretty much the same in the in the quality of the crashes they report and how they do that.
0:57:09That role like there's only so so much you can do there.
0:57:13Realistically speaking with with the way the runtime works and everything so that's all fine.
0:57:18So it's like why Microsoft want to buy HOCKEY I think the fact is simple like this is a multi a multi tool company they
0:57:27have multiple tool to support developers. Twitter bought crash for the same reason.
0:57:32Twitter buck rational text because Twitter wanted to own a developer tools platform
0:57:36and give them a lot of useful analytics. It gives them a lot of ins with developers that's to sell their other S.T.K.
0:57:42Services on Microsoft wants the same thing.
0:57:45That's what they're going for here to go in for developer tools and I think it's a good move for that
0:57:50and you know the bear thing is basically it's almost worthless now where the beta thing is nice for talking
0:57:58and the reason why.
0:58:00I'm bout to sign up with them again probably has the apple test flight data occasionally requires app review
0:58:08and that makes it pretty inflexible.
0:58:10And there's a limit of only two betas per day and everything else like there's all these little limits
0:58:15and delays in place because of Apple
0:58:17and I've had to build a lower caste sitting there for six days with nothing I can't in review it isn't even waiting for
0:58:25view it's been reviewed for six days a beta so I can't cancel it.
0:58:29I can put a new version like my testing process has just stopped like it has completely stalled for six days because
0:58:37something is wrong with Apple and I'm sure it's hammered into the holiday down in a few days
0:58:42and I can't ship a new version I even I can't even ship burdens to testers right now that's really crummy
0:58:49and this is not.
0:58:52Not confirmation of but it's like the worst nightmare of the tables I was going to write this line
0:58:56and they're going to ruin it.
0:58:58No I mean but so you know the Apple version of the of beta testing is way better than what their parties can do
0:59:04when it works.
0:59:05Yeah
0:59:05but what their parties can do is is not useless it's not worthless it's just not nearly as good in the core function
0:59:14but there is still value if you're shipping an app on i O.
0:59:17Us an Android
0:59:18and Windows Phone like you know what we hear Microsoft is getting into the cross-platform developer tools game like
0:59:24somewhere I ratter know if it was a rumor or if it was actual news.
0:59:28Somewhere there was a thing that said that early next year Microsoft was going to be or not I don't know when
0:59:35but sometime soon I guess I'm going to be releasing a new visual studio type stuff that will be able to cross compile
0:59:42the same app onto all three platforms
0:59:44and that would be really cool a lot of elderly use that I mean there are very there are tools that do cross-platform
0:59:49stuff now but from what I gather none of them are particularly good.
0:59:52So if that's the business Mike if I was going into it it's a very smart business
0:59:55and hockey plays right into that because with hockey then you can have testers.
1:00:00It's on all three platforms you can have you know you can have like you know ten people on I.O.'s twenty people on
1:00:06Android and you can get the one guy who uses Windows Phone probably and you probably also the OP
1:00:11or user if you're developing them together with this Microsoft stack it makes sense to be able to test them together
1:00:17and be able to collect crashes from them together
1:00:19and all the stuff like so it from that point of view it makes a lot of sense why they would want one also consider that
1:00:26they are you know open sourcing dot net in really embracing mano and Sam are in even more than they ever have before.
1:00:33So it's certainly this all seems to indicate to me just like you said Marco that they're kind of going all in on being
1:00:42the developer platform for all people for all platforms you know what I mean is that do we know that's true.
1:00:48Are we kind of being big time in the developer platform for all people if what you want to make is a kind of mediocre
1:00:55app for all platform play not mediocre like kind of middle of the road because they have the vendor functionality that
1:01:02is platform agnostic
1:01:03and so that means I mean the server side things that make sense because it's always platform agnostic at least you want
1:01:09to be to the benefit of AS Hers there is their best bet because it's like I don't want my back end to be tied to one
1:01:14plan from the whole point of I want to be thousands on the web not Ball blob.
1:01:17Almost everything else that's like I don't know why not write once run anywhere ever kind of you really have to buy
1:01:25into the native structures of the individual platforms to make a really great app on the individual platforms.
1:01:32The only exceptions are back and services and things like games that are like I don't care about your platform.
1:01:36I control the whole screen I'm a game and so that's where things like you know the middleware for for games
1:01:42and stuff
1:01:42and everything else like I wonder how much of a it does their strategy says exceeds like now we are the biggest
1:01:48and best middleware vendor for mobile applications is that a big win.
1:01:55Mike I still feel like that that entire business is kind of.
1:02:00In the middle of I was going to say in the middle of a bunch of hungry tigers of over going to animal analogies you
1:02:06gobble all the actual platform like it just seems like Microsoft
1:02:12or are we better off if they were in Samsung's Titian
1:02:14and Windows Phone was you know a big dominant platform then they can make Windows Phone
1:02:19and Windows Phone That's really awesome Instead of worrying about creating technologies to help people make their
1:02:23mobile apps on other people's platforms better.
1:02:26Yeah
1:02:26but if you look at you know the position Microsoft is in like in reality which I think you know the problem with with
1:02:32them in the later part of the bomber years is that they weren't fully looking at their reality
1:02:36or they were creating an even worse real reality for themselves.
1:02:39But if you look at this and they're actually in today I think is a very smart move.
1:02:43You know they've already shown that they are they they have built no market share whatsoever.
1:02:51Realistically in the new world of mobile at all and even there their P.C.
1:02:57Business is it's not going to go away but I think the growth is certainly gone.
1:03:03And so there's a problem there
1:03:05and you know the whole move to Azure as a as a company focus have it have been the guy who ran Azure become the new
1:03:11C.E.O.
1:03:12This is a sign like Microsoft is recognizing not only like a good business to be in
1:03:18but probably the best business that they can be it because their attempts at being otherwise have not worked.
1:03:28And there are certainly in some ways it's too late.
1:03:30Like no matter what they do in this phone it is not going to be super significant Windows Phone has missed its window
1:03:36and say it's never too late not for Windows Phone specifically but first of all
1:03:39when this one is not bad it's always telling us what is not bad like the hardware and software is not bad like.
1:03:47But you know even if you agree that it's better there in like a Mac like situation where Apple is making a better
1:03:52personal computers with better software for years but nobody cared because it wasn't better enough
1:03:57or because it was too expensive or whatever you want to make right.
1:04:00But
1:04:00but you can't really you can't say like well there's no hope because there was hope like all it all all well I guess I
1:04:07need to do is make a transition feel full and they're all set right
1:04:10and you know there's always hope to turn things around that you know it seemed like the mac couldn't get anywhere
1:04:16and was never going to succeed but it said quote unquote succeeded by having I'm actin things around
1:04:22and be hang in there long enough for everyone else to get destroyed
1:04:25and they're left with like the only remaining paying customers for you know who pay a lot of money for their computers
1:04:30right. But then they also do the i Pod and the i Phone right.
1:04:32And those are not the mac but they're similar in that they're own proprietary platforms that Apple made you know
1:04:39and sort of say like Microsoft still has the skill set to make very competitive hardware
1:04:45and software products like you know like like the P.C.
1:04:49Was in the you know like all the things that makes it so have the Windows Phone their timing was terrible.
1:04:54And two big betters got there before them and now they're kind of stuck and kind of unfair.
1:04:59You know they are it Windows Phone is not succeeding in proportion to its quality as a city in proportion to its timing
1:05:05more or less
1:05:06but I wouldn't give up on that entirely because it's kind of like Steve Jobs going on saying well we lost the P.C.
1:05:12Wars.
1:05:13So what we really need to do is construct an some business that is not like this we can make a hardware software
1:05:18integrated product like we were trying to with a MAC we do something entirely different will become like
1:05:23and a services company or whatever
1:05:24and if we're with Microsoft because members have so many different skills they're good services they're good hardware
1:05:29they're good it's off during a game console they're good at so many different things it's hard to know what to focus on.
1:05:35But when Steve Jobs came back that we said no we can make the Mac like people take notice of that again.
1:05:41With him I can be we can figure something new that is very much like the mac a hardware
1:05:45and software product integrated and takes advantage of all the things that quote unquote Only Apple can do
1:05:50and all that stuff and then the i Phone i Pad
1:05:52and so on so we're like Steve Jobs took a company that was failing to get traction with one product
1:05:57and made it get traction with products that are.
1:06:00Exactly the same like the same strategy just just better executed and better timing
1:06:04and it matches up says well I guess we can't be that company that we were now we have to be a services company.
1:06:11There's some reputation management you know resurrecting the reputation is people thinking Microsoft is cool
1:06:16and developers liking it and sort of the the alpha geeks as we used to say
1:06:20when I was ten was becoming popular the alpha geeks fighting attention of Microsoft again.
1:06:24That's good and if that's a good business for them fine
1:06:27but I would not like to see much of give up on doing something else like Windows Phone
1:06:34and having that succeed because they don't wait you know five years before they go off their butts
1:06:38and do something good so I don't know.
1:06:42It kind of scares me that this does become the azure company or the company that I was a plus I guess exchange
1:06:52and civil servants are like that that will be a sad end for the company
1:06:56and rad to see them do more things like Windows but better.
1:07:00Well I don't think they're going to lose control of their their software platforms.
1:07:04I just think they're going to become less and less relevant over time
1:07:07and they're always like there was going to be there in the same way like you know I.B.M.
1:07:11I think still has a mainframe business but like it's and I don't think it's going to be that bad. I.B.M.
1:07:17The worst example they're selling everything there so they can sell their X.
1:07:20A successful business and they're doing that now they got rid of their P.C.
1:07:23The servers the mainframes are like all that's left
1:07:25and yet no I don't I B M is exactly what I don't want prints of to become private
1:07:30and say like like there are there are healthy businesses in the computer world like printers you know like printers are
1:07:36always going to exist but they're just going to get increasingly less
1:07:39and less important over time they're already pretty much completely forgot a bull unmentionable.
1:07:44This is probably the first time you've heard about a printer today
1:07:47and that's you know no big deal doesn't matter you know if that's where Windows and Office and Windows Phone go.
1:07:56That's fine and that's that's not a huge deal like.
1:08:00There they can be used every day by millions of people and be completely unmemorable and unimportant to the business.
1:08:06Microsoft should sell Office and Windows to Samsung to destroy the company destroy Samsung virus of the B.
1:08:12Like this is awesome.
1:08:14You know we're going to have we're going to Omega's all the Windows and Office those things are great
1:08:18and like trying to maintain
1:08:20and work on that code base for products that people don't really like anymore like that will just it will distract
1:08:26and crush Samsung and Microsoft can beat them to market with whatever the next big thing is and whether it I.B.M.
1:08:31I think what they sold their P.C.
1:08:32Business
1:08:33and I'm pretty sure they sell their I say six service is a long time ago I think now they're serving their power server
1:08:37business the power seven power processors
1:08:40and maybe they're also selling the mainframe thing may be the one in the same anyway.
1:08:43Microsoft is the market of the car world that is selling everything now I mean I don't I think brains at I.B.M.
1:08:50Remember that don't you have no idea how much fall off I'm going to get from my father over all this if I hear where
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1:13:15All right so our friend in the chat suggested this topic it's a chromium they haven't they heard of hosel sometime
1:13:27called marking T.P. As non-secure So they're proposing that browser vendors change their U.I. Paradigm.
1:13:35So instead of saying instead of like showing a lock or some indicator when a site is served over S.S.L.
1:13:41To show that it is secure to actually mark non as a cell site as insecure in the browser to make it to kind of like
1:13:49yell at people into recognizing like hey what you're doing here is insecure to say I like the absence of of an icon
1:13:56doesn't communicate much to people whereas like an active all.
1:14:00Saying this isn't secure might be more helpful to their saying they intend to transition Chrome to this sometime in
1:14:07twenty fifteen and maybe other browser wonderful follow
1:14:10and then there's a whole bunch of going on in browsers these days with with S.S.L. and Trying to make it a bigger deal.
1:14:18Chrome seems to be leading the way on that. The other browser vendors tend to follow pretty quickly.
1:14:24What do you think about this do you think I have my own opinions on this how much do you think this would help
1:14:31and does it matter.
1:14:32First of all for dating this if you look at the screenshots that's not the current version of Safari so I hate web
1:14:39pages that dates on them.
1:14:40But anyway is the potential for this to be old because that is not Safari eight in a screenshot it says they intend to
1:14:47be in for a turn just unplanned for crewmen twenty fifteen so it has to be some time recently.
1:14:52I know
1:14:52but who knows this could this could have been written at the beginning of twenty four in any way for this particular
1:14:58idea.
1:14:59My question is always say you communicate this to people you know you change change the wording you know it's it's a
1:15:07tax not a state tax right. This is now insecure instead of the other one being secure right now.
1:15:12What do people do about that.
1:15:14What action is there readily available action that people can take to make them not just ignore this like all the other
1:15:22crazy technical things that their computer yelled at them that they don't understand like a big giant red button that
1:15:28says which is secure if if we can make that big Jaron button Why doesn't the browsers try it all the time anyway why
1:15:34don't we just make it try by default all the time
1:15:37and fall back to the like that's what you need not so much like communicating to the user information that they don't
1:15:46understand what they can do with but rather simply just doing the right thing making the browser do H.T.T.P.
1:15:51By default all the time now I know that's not quite easy and you can just try to B.S.
1:15:55First and then you know there are there are technical hurdles.
1:16:00Do you know you break different websites if you try this all the time like maybe it has to be something that people
1:16:05click or whatever but that's my big question about this.
1:16:08If you communicate information what do I do with this information. What what action do I take.
1:16:13Katie what do you think I understand the idea
1:16:15but it just seems weird to kind of flipped everything on its head like that.
1:16:21But I'm also probably reading too much into it in so far as A does anyone even does any regular human really pay
1:16:27attention whether or not a Web site you're looking at a skier I know people look they used to back
1:16:33when time web browsers were more stable there were fewer of them and it was just Netscape
1:16:37and explore which people usually used one of them they knew to look for the little lock icon
1:16:43or whatever like in their browser Chrome and they'd be like is this secure before like so I look for the lock
1:16:49and that certain people are kind of trained to look for the little lock
1:16:52but then a little walk start moving all the prices and black dresses got a weird
1:16:56and sometimes a lock had a line through it it was like a certificate error
1:17:00and it just it started to sort of become just more noise that your computer throws at you sometimes a bit of a dialog
1:17:06box and is allow or disallow and you ask you know you talk about computers
1:17:09and there will be there really are there people who just always say allow us to be politicized he said disallow
1:17:15and you may be thinking of the people who I say allow our you know stupid and naive and doing insecure things
1:17:22but if you've ever had to try to help a person who is one of the disallowed people or deny people
1:17:27or whatever that I was always a little I was always they deny
1:17:30and then they wonder why nothing works on the web because they refuse to enable Javascript or something.
1:17:34It's either approach is great
1:17:36and the problem is that people regular user shouldn't have to understand all this typing on the job
1:17:41or just to get the thing they wanted want done done so that's what I'm thinking.
1:17:45Exposing more of this technical mumbo jumbo to regular people is not really helping matters
1:17:52or I would be more in favor of is I mean there are kinder wasn't doing a thing where like they're giving us is so stiff
1:17:57it is for free just encourage more sites to have them.
1:18:00Make more site doesn't sell by default makes the web people run the Web site to redirect H.T.T.P.
1:18:05Data D.B.'s all the time immediately on the first head and just like people don't have to know about that right.
1:18:11If they don't care if they don't over the lock icon is anymore if you just this is a discussion that should take place
1:18:17amongst the people who are making web sites or less so amongst the people who are using web browsers.
1:18:21Maybe also a bunch of people who are making web browsers
1:18:24but their their customers are the individual users not the Web site so I feel like this should be you know more
1:18:30speaking in words as a as a as an industry and as our words to the users.
1:18:35Yeah I mean I think the main problems with this.
1:18:38Number one I would even question Drummond you said that at the beginning
1:18:42when we only had very few people knew to look for the lock up.
1:18:45I bet nobody even did then I bet the percentage of Internet users who look at the lock icon is about the same as it's
1:18:50always been which is probably embarrassingly low I think the problem is like this.
1:18:57This is trying to address the same thing as like forming a consortium to figure out how can we make people better read
1:19:07text in error dialogs like you like it.
1:19:11You probably can't like they like if you're like if they were in the button text.
1:19:14Yeah it's very little you can do maybe they just didn't recognize the shape of OK and had it before even reading it.
1:19:20Yeah like you know in their in their head they're saying how do I cancel out of this
1:19:25and just get rid of this I don't know what to do as I like it's it's a very hard problem that is mostly unsolvable.
1:19:31Same thing here is like how do you make people pay attention to the level of connection encryption that they have in
1:19:38their I mean we can even make you pay attention to the hosts they're connected to.
1:19:42Like that's it's own problems like so the other problem with this scheme is that all it does if it's hard to say you
1:19:51are secure or you are insecure because what does that mean if you are reading a blog or the New York Times
1:19:58or something and it's.
1:20:00Insecure What does that mean does that mean the blog is going to hack you like that's confusing to people at best if
1:20:06they even look and it's misleading certainly.
1:20:09Similarly if you say you are secure you are secure like somebody which a secure connection to totally dot Bank of
1:20:18America are you is not a good thing it's like you can you can have an S.S.L.
1:20:25Certificate to a totally different domain that is still a fishing domain and you can still be insecure.
1:20:31Yes you can look into the easy stuff
1:20:33and get like the name of your company Bank of America Incorporated to show in a green button in the bar
1:20:38but it's like those can probably also be easily faked.
1:20:42You know with enough effort and also no one looks for those either.
1:20:45Like all the people who don't look for a lot hike
1:20:46and they don't look for easy certificates either earlier if you're looking for like it appears so differently
1:20:51or sometimes not at all in different browsers.
1:20:55I meant people who used to look at a lock icon
1:20:57but once it became more complicated than that once it became more complicated than a binary thing that was generally
1:21:01represented the same way everywhere.
1:21:03Then people can't be bothered and speaking of the security thing another thing is positive and a chat room you know.
1:21:08But because I'm scrolled up to look at something else
1:21:11but I think Eric Schmidt had something where he was telling people using How do you know her voice the voice of the
1:21:17N.S.A.
1:21:18Like that's what gives back to Margo saying what does secure mean
1:21:21and what does insecure mean they don't mean what those what those words read as to a technically
1:21:27and savvy user because it's like either I'm safe
1:21:29or not safe that's what they're looking for is basically all they can handle
1:21:32and even that only conscientious people can handle and I say for my not safe
1:21:35and Ike The real answer is so much more complicated than a binary you're safe
1:21:38and you're not safe that you can't like even if you can successfully communicate that simple aeration it's misleading
1:21:45and if you could say actually it's just a given to Katie the more nuanced information which you can't
1:21:49but if you could people would still be left with. OK Now I understand the exact parameters of the situation I'm in.
1:21:56What do I do about it. Do I know I don't know web browser anymore and then you just said that.
1:22:00She was sure and either allow everything
1:22:01or deny everything dismiss everything with can for them is this everything was OK
1:22:05and I think there are more this mess ever allow allow I think there are more a Lauer's than desires because then I was
1:22:11really just can't get anything done and they were very frustrating people
1:22:15but they're like No I just I need I need a long explanation of why I'm supposed to not you know I'm just like what you
1:22:21just keep reading the novel you're never going to have the phony software you never reveal the washing your videos on
1:22:25the web all your websites will be broken but I feel safer this way
1:22:28and right people people learn very quickly that if you hit OK to everything you get overall fewer boxes right.
1:22:34That's been the strategy it's like the N.F.L. Question like it doesn't it doesn't assure you that the site is secure.
1:22:41All insurers use it you have an encrypted connection to the site
1:22:44and even that's kind of a questionable with a little T.V.
1:22:46That is and the ink you know has nothing to do with anything but even S.S.L.
1:22:50We can say at this point does not protect you from you know with Heartbleed narrative it doesn't protect you really
1:22:54anyway.
1:22:55Well
1:22:55and even then it's like there's a map there's a whole class of security issues that a cell doesn't protect you from things
1:23:02like password leaks
1:23:03and hacks like it like if you if you see the secure icon does that mean you can type in the one password you use for
1:23:09everything good in your bank and use that on this Web site to secure site and won't lose your password.
1:23:14No of course not but you know so again what does that mean so that I think this is this is you know the move to do.
1:23:23H.T.T.P. S.
1:23:23Everywhere that that a lot of people are are moving towards I think in many ways that that's a good move
1:23:29and that is part of the way we're going
1:23:32but this conversion as all reminds me of I mean it's amazing that it's taken as long as it's taken so long because the
1:23:37sort of artificial barrier to this happening earlier was that US soldiers are because cost money
1:23:42and it's not a lot of money
1:23:43but it's thought that they cost money in there knowing where I am are able to sell them are generally annoying
1:23:49and so yes after ion to reduce that barrier is better
1:23:51but it's like going to remind me of is the transition from the old days of telnet F.T.P.
1:23:57To basically as a sage and as a tryst.
1:24:00An open source and that's why it spread everywhere and nobody's telnetting to their machines anymore
1:24:05and nobody's using F.T.P.
1:24:06With plaintext passwords anymore because I would be crazy
1:24:09and yet we still continue to you know use essentially the web equivalent to you know total an encrypted telnet F.T.P.
1:24:15Like I'm going to protocols are crazy right.
1:24:17But we used to be all the time and yeah we hope that we're typing in a password I mean I know I don't even check.
1:24:22Do I look up to see is H.T.T.P. I think assumed OK great you have some sort of prompt and I have to be a G.P.S.
1:24:29You know but but you don't so really everyone fish John. Then we should be H.T.T.P.
1:24:34As everywhere
1:24:36and stead of just like whereas SH everywhere because nobody uses telnet anymore although I'm glad a stone thought of a
1:24:41story this is about web servers. The big problem with with adoption of S.S.L.
1:24:46Everywhere to be as it were rather is that the certificates expire
1:24:51and I think it used to be you get a five year one I think they killed that last year right now going through year to
1:24:56year one some like that as if he's never expire so you can have the same as a key for you know ten years
1:25:05and it will continue to work
1:25:06but a web site is more heavyweight than a server the server that you're remotely connected to visit I just feel like
1:25:13the main barrier was that it cost money and you had to deal with these weird vendors and if they can make it easier
1:25:18and make it simpler to update these things
1:25:20and you know like I just asked that because if you're running a Web site like that's a big thing that's worth investing
1:25:26in of like you know a couple minutes every three years.
1:25:29Sure the problem is that it is a very highly technical process that is very error prone very intimidating
1:25:36and very complicated that you have to do every two or three years
1:25:41and that's like on a grand scheme of things like in the grand scheme of the Internet.
1:25:45No we're going to do that like the big sites will do it but everything else out there it's not going to do it.
1:25:51But people people and what's left is not a big site.
1:25:53People don't run their own websites so much anymore
1:25:55and if they do they're probably technicians anyway we just need the big sites to do it and like Facebook you know.
1:26:00You know.
1:26:01Wordpress has to have like idiot proof support for built in we just click a button
1:26:05and they can accept a thing you know like it's it's possible to get this to happen I think the money making making it
1:26:12free if it actually works out like if you had like the as a certificate of a bit of hover I don't hover I think they do
1:26:20a vault There you go.
1:26:21But like
1:26:21but they can't do the things they don't can't do a thing where you set up your own Word Press letting just press a
1:26:25button and then it says I'm going to buy and install an assault is difficult for you because you want me to do this
1:26:31and you know in order renews like every couple of years ago he enters
1:26:35and Janina by the way we're going to tell us a list of we're going to gobble weeks you want to do that yeah go ahead.
1:26:39That's not how it works now you know we have to look at different protocols and.
1:26:44And good the right ones
1:26:45and you create your key was so great a command line program that asked you a million questions you don't know the
1:26:50answer to that is a vocabulary affably whether you if you are familiar with you forget which thing you're supposed to
1:26:54write their your name or your company name or whatever
1:26:56and the instructions are so like these last three things you must skip them don't enter anything in like these these
1:27:01three bills.
1:27:03But anyway I still think all that stuff
1:27:06but people people who have to deal with that are better equipped to deal with it then uses art to deal with more
1:27:11interface elements telling them something that they don't understand about the pages they're using I mean my mother
1:27:18still emails me things and says I got an e-mail and it wants me to go to the site is this site safe
1:27:28and just mind of all that I now know I'm the denial I should know. Deny Deny just do not do anything.
1:27:34That email didn't come you think you came from.
1:27:36Yeah and the like even Yeah I remember early on it is the engine I demonstrated how you can send e-mail from anybody
1:27:42but you know telnetting to port twenty five back when I was back
1:27:46when I was on the cover of like you know President of United States that I'm looking at an e-mail from President you
1:27:51know something I did that and that didn't take and so still to this day she's like but the e-mail came from you.
1:27:57Mike did not come from me. Right now it looks like again.
1:28:00Didn't did it so even that concept like it's just the mental model of how people think the Internet works is so
1:28:08different from ours actually works that it's very difficult to you know you can't get the models
1:28:13and think because the way the internet really works is too complicated for people to know or care about
1:28:18and so you really just have to not give them choices and sort of be safe by default
1:28:24and make it so that you don't have to do anything through no action of your own.
1:28:29You are slightly more protected now than you were before. All right thanks a lot to earth responses this week.
1:28:36Automatic Lynda dot com and dash and we will see you next week.
1:28:43Now this show is over and it was accidental accidental easy.
1:29:04And she is now sitting down and this sister that lives and the right one address S.K.
1:29:44College is concerned that at the clock and then your bar with an integrated into the U.S.
1:29:49Quickly that didn't come until some some point five
1:29:53and I'm going to say yeah I was quick going four years between the time was introduced in time to get scooped up that's
1:29:58in the thirty year history of the man.
1:30:00That's relatively quick compared to well I don't know like theming which almost made it in
1:30:05but then no not at the last minute
1:30:06and we're still waiting for to go anyway if the history of the mac from one hundred ninety four until today is that
1:30:11o'clock in the menu bar it's pretty long time
1:30:14and for a couple years before that with a third party utility was Windowshade third party you guys don't know you some
1:30:19of the chair and I remember when there she didn't remember getting a crappy knock off from my P.C.
1:30:25Because I thought it was awesome that is awesome it was awesome
1:30:27and it is what if you had to go back to being third party after being integrated because they took it out
1:30:33and I stand
1:30:35and they say in practice you could have a cup is like sticks around your screen like these windows really were awesome
1:30:41Windowshade was arson.
1:30:42Yes Marco that is basically how it works this is why when the show was off of the screen full of stuff.
1:30:48If you're a person like me who arranges your windows on the screen like doesn't act them eyes everything doesn't pile
1:30:55everything
1:30:55but actually arranges them like you to arrange items on a desk in front of you so you know where everything is No I do
1:31:00that I well I was very mad whenever I would move my Miley in window or something.
1:31:05All right well that's a payment of everything all your terminal windows all your editor
1:31:08when you don't like being able to centrally minimize them without having to move.
1:31:15So when you want them back you go to where they were
1:31:18but they don't they don't take a visual space on your screen anymore you just have the little little stick thing like
1:31:24displacement immigration into the dock or you know hidden also has its place
1:31:29but being able to sort of maintain the spatial state of your windows while having them minimize themselves having them
1:31:35hide have them curled up
1:31:37and get out of your way until you want them lets you quickly find them again without going through a menu without
1:31:41hovering over a bunch of little identical looking icons
1:31:43and you know exactly where it is because you can visualize where was it now you have the top part of it.
1:31:48So I miss window shade it wasn't the ultimate thing for minimalization.
1:31:52All the other all the other tools we currently have now are also good but they took away that one.
1:31:56It's kind of a shame and it's probably just as well because nobody arranges their windows.
1:32:00Mark just orbiting full screen
1:32:01or just have no idea where the windows are I can't I can't imagine having with all these sticks all over the place
1:32:07because it seems like they don't minimize all of them is on the other the millions fix you just minimize the ones
1:32:11you're not using right now why is that so much better than hiding because hiding gets all the way God like honey how do
1:32:17you get it back then you hit the icon the doctor use the all tab thing. Well I gonna die.
1:32:21Seven icons they're all badge in the same application
1:32:23and I really don't know which one is the one you want to go to how you go to do the mystery meat hover
1:32:26and find out which one it is. I never minimize that I only hide but what if you hide it.
1:32:32How do you get a background you have to go back to the application go to go to some menu
1:32:36or you go go to the doc I kind of pull it up by its name and hope you remember the name
1:32:40and hope replications good about giving titles to the windows that make sense
1:32:42and that you know especially with the windows tabs
1:32:45and it doesn't convey the tab dialog special memory is a lot better for me anyway I think for most special memory where
1:32:52things are on the dock.
1:32:54Seriously like the things I wrote in the same place in the UK so I know what the application icon or the Yeah Yeah
1:32:59but you have to the application icon doesn't magically make the window appear you have to look at the list of windows
1:33:04that are minimized under it.
1:33:05How many windows you keep We want to help a lot I went because of their disconnect here like I generally don't like.
1:33:13In each app I usually keep between one and two windows and I use tabs very heavily and in terminal in the browsers
1:33:20but I don't keep a whole lot of windows open. I have eleven windows in colloquy right now to give a wonderful.
1:33:28Oh my God how in the M.B. Be added in V.B.
1:33:30Editor I frequently have I don't know I think I've pushed up from two hundred before maybe twenty
1:33:36or thirty most of the time I don't even know colloquy had multiple meanings either terminal terminal you have one two
1:33:43three four five six seven eight eight or nine million homes wrong what you do is one of the staff
1:33:49and if you do not believe it.
1:33:50Yeah I was going to get up
1:33:51or even tabs only know there was a terminal one of the heads up terminals as obviously my browser windows have had some
1:33:57neighbors I don't have a lot of browser windows open right now I have. I love it every week.
1:34:03We're finding out like some crazy computer habit from John that we that nobody would've expected one nine hundred forty
1:34:09one is open right now. Oh my window. Thank you for your windows not even tens of tens in those windows.
1:34:15Well when there was a lot.
1:34:16If only there was a way for you to like save things to a reading list
1:34:20or something to remember you know what this is for I have a bigger screen a bigger screen this is like giving a hoarder
1:34:28a bigger house like you don't that's not going to fix your own no no I'm not hoarding things not collecting windows the
1:34:34channeling what I'm doing in them.
1:34:35It's that kind of sounds like you just you cannot have nine hundred windows with multiple transfer window that you're
1:34:41using scare quotes doing things
1:34:44and I definitely can sometimes it's sort of like sedimentary layers like for example the work my work
1:34:50when I was I was doing work earlier today are you know separate from my other windows I don't use spaces either.
1:34:56How could you manage all that without speed.
1:34:58My nineteen cartoonist by the way are precisely arranged in the same place they've been for years the same windows the
1:35:05one window per channel one window per channel and they are precisely arranged.
1:35:09And you hang out in one nine hundred channels.
1:35:11So Mike how do you go to get anything done during the day I don't know in the middle idling that you know hard work you
1:35:17don't have to be there paying attention.
1:35:18Yeah they're all in like a little tab in the side you know now the windows are open.
1:35:23How would having little you a little minimized window sticks everywhere how would that help you prefer for colloquy
1:35:30when I'm doing a podcast.
1:35:32I don't want to look at any of the windows except for the one I'm doing so I have to minimize all them to the doctor
1:35:37for the one that I'm doing if I could.
1:35:38Option Windowshade them they would all shade up and down the line I want I would have to do that.
1:35:44Oh my God I know you have to like to make them all to minimize all right.
1:35:47Probably
1:35:48when use of recalls they probably have read it in Windows more if user Finder windows there I'm stuck on I cannot mean
1:35:54I cannot cognitively handle more than a couple of Safari went.
1:36:00There's your Window users ear you see is the maximizing it really can only handle one window at a time I now know I can
1:36:06only I can only handle like a sum total of maybe ten tabs across like to
1:36:11when you should see my work computer it has so many windows on it like there is unbelievable I went to my home
1:36:17and sometimes I have to go there and clean up things like I know what's in a lot of these windows
1:36:20and sometimes that you know sometimes these things are from Instapaper
1:36:24but a lot of times there are things that I can't view that I look into their i Pad
1:36:28and some video on players like Flash because the thing is choking and I have today on my app
1:36:32or i Pad three hundred in a blog post and I have like a text and I could google add next to it.
1:36:37Double tap the text just have the text of the screen
1:36:40and it was some crazy javascript on this page it was like no I will always have to show you the ads of the largest you
1:36:45can make this page is where it shows that my little pretty blue margin and the my white margin and then a text
1:36:52and then another white margin on the ad then a blue margin
1:36:55and you can still do more did was make a tech smaller so if that the addon
1:36:58and scrolling the page was super slow so it's like I was going to read that
1:37:01and I need to point to get your processor to read this program blog post apparently because I'm not going to scrolls on
1:37:07i Pad and watch it like stutter and actually make it seem like I quickly add what I'm trying to scroll.
1:37:12Very frustrating.
1:37:13Anyway there are reasons that I might have been in a browser window instead of looking for means to paper map.
1:37:19Wow I just I don't even know what to say right now like one team Safari windows is did I hear that right ninety now.
1:37:28How do you tell which one.
1:37:30Oh no that is the one number seventeen is the one I will have them I have them arranged it seems that there be a lot of
1:37:37churning going on here because you can't yes you can fit ninety minutes on screen you said you said you know your
1:37:42virtual desktop Co's hold or they overlap the co-pilot You know so
1:37:47and you have only one physical monitor connected to your machine is there in one monitor
1:37:51and it's what is it a twenty four inch class or thirty inch or were once twenty by twelve on rice an hour
1:37:57and well this is me. He me her I want to cry just thinking of you trying to manage all this.
1:38:03It's not magic like this is just how I work
1:38:05or who like things some of the messy Dechen say how can you do anything done with all those markers
1:38:09and pencils everywhere
1:38:10and it's just paper in a race is I don't understand how you get anything done it's like No Country nothing history I
1:38:15don't know where the things are all these paint and cups and buckets and how do you get nothing
1:38:20but you have a stick in an evil
1:38:22and I don't understand you getting done how do you know where everything is I have three hundred sixty seven sticks on
1:38:27my desktop and exactly which one is the window
1:38:30and he was like a someone who was like a mechanic who got an entire tool chest next them
1:38:34and everything is in a drawer and every drug has a little cubby and everything is there it's all within arm's reach
1:38:38when he's working on a car I think that that's how the mechanic sees it in his head
1:38:42and in real life it's a giant pile of unsorted those annoying so I know I read it
1:38:46and I can find days I go into a lot of the puter as things never get dirty
1:38:52and you know for for window arranging should be.
1:38:57I still want this utility
1:38:58and I don't think anyone's going to make this is something that Apple should make is I want something lets me arrange
1:39:03windows with constraints. First of all I'm pretty sure that many of those exist.
1:39:07Second of all this is your app John this is this is your great idea this is the type of vote ever make that we know
1:39:13this is doomed from the start because we have never ever they would have to use private A.B.I.
1:39:18Eyes and it can never go on the mag asked or
1:39:20and everyone user of it may be like you're only talking about Everest every time mention if people send me the million
1:39:25apps of imaging a charmer
1:39:26and here comes my room with another one of these apps are made by people who like it like the iron window manager they
1:39:35like for tiling or like even Windows as it were like I can make it half my screen
1:39:38or a third of my screen is like no I'm not subdividing my screen you want to lay out for Windows you want you want to
1:39:44be like All right this window is always this window has the same center X.
1:39:48Coordinate as this window from this app but is always thirty pixels to the right of the window edge not back
1:39:54but us to complicate like there are there is an app that does that there's an app where you can like type in those type
1:39:58of things and have like bind them.
1:40:00The keyboard shortcuts and stuff like that I don't think a lot of stuff
1:40:03but it does basically spring the stress type thing like you can very precisely
1:40:06but I would never wonder that I would need to be doing what I wanted something to use to do a couple of neat allowed to
1:40:11do like individual apps and do it wasn't a system wide thing
1:40:15and you know some apps still do kind of like where you were dragged a pallet
1:40:19and it would kind of snap the palette into the corner of your screen
1:40:22but it wouldn't be touching in the corner would leave a little margin
1:40:24and if you brought one of the other parts of the application up below it this is before everyone's palates for doc
1:40:29about like you know on the job you have today you bring other power below it it wouldn't stick to the bonnier palpably
1:40:34little margin that margin was the same one of this we want is for example my colleague who
1:40:38and I have a range in a particular way and I have them in groups and a group so I'll do the same with
1:40:44and I want them to be vertically aligned with each other
1:40:47and if they're not overlapping I want them to be consistent margin between them above and to the ones to the right
1:40:52but if they are arriving at us wanting to stay within their right
1:40:55and left edges like this we sort of magnetic sticky smart guide kind of things kind of like looking I don't know kind
1:41:02of like what on the gravel does with its layout constraints
1:41:05and a combination of those two things would take some experimentation to get it right and you need modifier keys
1:41:09when you don't want to just snap
1:41:10and stuff like that just a few simple snapping rules Oh totally just a few small rules for making things the same with
1:41:17and lined up with the choice of you know just do it manually and it's it's fine it's not that big of a deal
1:41:22but you know
1:41:23or tiling just regular tiling windows like there are certain timing offset the you don't want to happen I don't make
1:41:28let me tile the window and leave like two pixels visible on the left
1:41:30or right edges because that's not good enough like I want sort of magnetic kind of snap to gritty
1:41:38but not really a grid like where I don't care about the screen grid I only care about what your position is relative to
1:41:44other related windows in the same app or something like that.
1:41:47It's complicated that's why I make this happen I don't think anyone actually want it but people who are meticulous
1:41:53when no Rangers all five of us really like it. You know John maybe if you didn't have one nine hundred forty windows.
1:42:00You wouldn't need to be quite as meticulous with your money now now but for now that's just one application.
1:42:06Terminal I have been terminals internal tabs of like they're a problem because now every window is like a million tabs
1:42:13in it you know you could just not have as many windows and not for you to use them for work like they have a purpose.
1:42:19You could use a mile going to choose not to throw stones on the parole issue
1:42:25but you know what I'm doing with Terminal One of the pearls up and B.B.
1:42:29Out and anyone is whether they're at home now I just have one window open
1:42:34and be out about the work I have many more than one ever on so I flush everything out because of the windows
1:42:40application.
1:42:41Start over again but I do it by checking what I have there
1:42:44and making sure there's nothing left I want to save this app unlike annually. So like P.V.
1:42:49Added when I'm done with a project usually our view all of my windows make sure and I keep getting open
1:42:53and I don't want to and close everything
1:42:55and you know that it's cool like quit is now bound to save all my window positions and fade and then quit.
1:43:04So I never go there it just could be out of i Relaunch
1:43:07and everything is back where I found it that's that's the way I like to be. I just nineteen Safari windows.
1:43:13Oh my God I mean Roland how many chrome windows to open my God if you think about that of course is modeled around as
1:43:22of course as well from Windows I can do that to the nice guy runs very incremental time. Oh my god why.
1:43:31Why on God's green earth do you need more than thirty your web browser windows so why is that necessary how many
1:43:39frickin tabs are in all thirty of the some now I can close thing a mega web browser then why don't you know that more
1:43:46than one I can close the pages with the dates of the super clock dates in it.
1:43:50What's the average number of tabs per window you think it like.
1:43:55So you can still see the titles like usually you know so like eight not one two three.
1:44:00For like five or six like for example when I was looking up I don't look up the dates
1:44:03or a super clock one window dedicated to looking up the date that that super clock was was released.
1:44:09One window looking up the date that says seven point five was released
1:44:14and it was in those windows I have the Google thing
1:44:16and then I have tabs for the google search result that I thought would be likely
1:44:20and then one of the tabs eventually led to the end.
1:44:22That window is done off to the side next window well why is it off to the side it why should not close so I can refer
1:44:29to it when I just discussed this
1:44:30and did the math in my head about what the dates were right at it while the winds are not close the tabs behind it to
1:44:35the new when I would come out of the end of the show I close this entire window.
1:44:39This like little mini research when there's that entire window goes that entire Windows thing.
1:44:43I had emailed that I want to talk about in the after show from Grand Opening the window here I have a B.B.
1:44:50No it's another window. John now you have to be honest with us please.
1:44:55We were doing this because we're your friends do you have any other browsers open right now.
1:45:02Just just do you do you do you keep any of the browsers you know we're trying to give any other browsers in my
1:45:08application folder or like you run them.
1:45:11I don't run any other than what I do I do have a latest version of what he called for Firefox
1:45:18and maybe I have an aversion to hop around there somewhere and when I went to how often do you use Firefox John never.
1:45:26OK you're still you're still saying every once in a while I launch it just to see like I don't have to ation before
1:45:31where when I launched in application updater didn't even know about.
1:45:35Like the newest version of Fireball the updater wasn't new enough to know that like actually there on Firefox version
1:45:40like thirty years something and it want to download it wanted to go to like version twelve or something.
1:45:44If that was the latest So sometimes I don't run it so long that it just goes.
1:45:48Occasionally I fired up to see what it's like I used back in the day to Chrome totally replaced it so you only use
1:45:55Firefox socially so I when I mean maintain like.
1:46:00Get Firefox to be Tyrell tolerable back in the day I had a series of themes that I had to apply
1:46:04and the themes would break with new version so every time a new version came out I would update Firefox
1:46:08and try to find a new version of the cool theme that I liked him
1:46:11and then just Firefox went crazy I said forget it I still don't see your thirty web browsers open with roundabouts six
1:46:22tabs per for window.
1:46:24Oh God what do you need a hundred new temps or the stuff the stuff and I look at this
1:46:29when I have stuff because I don't think anything's of stock the stuff to be worth something someday I have to keep it.
1:46:35You exit the U.
1:46:36Acts of mobile settings
1:46:38and I read that one eventual meaning there is because things tend to get buried in Instapaper because they fall off the
1:46:44end of this one I really want to read I can leave it open in a web browser.
1:46:48Do you have a hundred maybe looking to go and do something now.
1:46:51This swift and blog post I read or I think I can close that one thing I read it at work.
1:46:56This is hoarders this is just this is hoarders.
1:46:58Yeah this is you know your lives are out of work on where they're going to the the the levels of hoarding.
1:47:05I'm finished I'm like half way this is a relevant topic then but I was definitely not because as you'll find out
1:47:11when you listen to the episode. Hoarders on over their stuff as you are you are just an indexed order.
1:47:17Now it's not it's not morning at all it's characteristic of the heart of it is that not a lot of
1:47:22and then I'm not saving this other thing is going to be worth something from the i've I bet hoarders.
1:47:27First of all you are sitting because you think you can actually get to it I will I do get to how do you think things
1:47:31close think close they've got time I don't necessarily get to them on this computer
1:47:35but I might give them some Please also see I can close this one this is from I think comparable you know they don't
1:47:40know our tabs gun right. So why was it open all day.
1:47:43Welp it wasn't over all day because I just got on my computer I've been I've been busy I have I have no time to like
1:47:48sit at my computer and do anything except for open one more new way since my ninety six.
1:47:53Someday I'll clean it all out
1:47:54when I retire hell I hope I open that window with all those tabs in it for movie information for an incomparable.
1:48:00But I did feel like last night
1:48:01and I didn't call the windows of our life experiences late I got my way of computing is extremely efficient.
1:48:10People people for many people don't understand that like how do you have all these windows over how do you find it
1:48:15again I see somebody else
1:48:16when I tell them to open up a new file they open a Terminal window they see into the Directory V.I.I.
1:48:23The file name the head of the file then my hands over a new file they close that file the CD to another directory
1:48:29there's I.V.I.
1:48:29The file name and edit the file that is inefficient
1:48:32and then all the while they're doing this in one windows into their entire gigantic twenty three inch screen and stay.
1:48:37Instead I have a different terminal windows open different locations that I need to walk over to the director to do
1:48:42stuff.
1:48:43Shortcuts for a command to do things it is much more efficient than the people think I send you everything clean just
1:48:48one window that covers my entire screen do everything there. You're basically multi-tasking vs single tasking.
1:48:54Yeah there's a lot of room between those two I mean towards one end but it's not like this one I think you already
1:49:03and yet you know looking back on the rest of society were saying Geez I remember what that's like.
1:49:08I think you'll find a lot of old school mac users work like this with multiple windows
1:49:13and people people who didn't grow up managing Windows
1:49:16and Windows are their enemy they just want to get them off the screen they can't handle them they don't it doesn't
1:49:20occur to them to try to arrange or shape them as they would physical objects
1:49:23and so they just they just appear randomly and they're at the mercy of their windows
1:49:27and so their only solution is to have very few windows This is the only way they can feel like they have any mastery of
1:49:32the computer I don't have that problem. John let me assure you that whether or not you are aware of it.
1:49:37Windows are your enemy as well. They are not out there my friend. We need to have like a Windows zero intervention.
1:49:44I'll give Here's a tip for the two you have both I assume use terminal
1:49:48and various times yeah you have a terminal window arrangement that you can save in Terminal where you dedicate sizes
1:49:56shapes in regions for Windows dedicated to stay. Purposes for example.
1:50:01Here are my remote windows for this type of machine.
1:50:05This is my log tailing window this is my window for root on a local machine this is my window for starting
1:50:12and stopping the web server and then those when as you have tabs for some purposes
1:50:16but dedicate a few major readers of the things that you do with the things I listed are things I commonly do
1:50:20but whatever the things are you have only to have Windows size shapes in regions for them.
1:50:26You'll never find yourself command tilting through windows.
1:50:29Again you will never find yourself hunting for a window because everything will be like your Union Terminal One is a
1:50:33type of thing where you can actually have them not overlapping that much because you don't need that many Turmel
1:50:38and especially with have to cover all your bases and all of your news
1:50:42and then you never need to wonder where to look in their need to rearrange things you can see or logging tales
1:50:47or something. Everything is always exactly where you want to try that just in one application.
1:50:51Well I have that I mean I know where things are I just get by with fewer windows so.
1:50:56So how many what are your categories of windows of like you know for the for the have a test describe them what for
1:51:05terminal.
1:51:05Yeah OK the camp of this is the SO All right so I have I have right now for terminal windows most of which are single
1:51:15tabs of the main I have like one main one in the bottom that that's where I keep like six or seven tabs open
1:51:20and they're always in a similar order like the far left.
1:51:24I was always like you know just like somewhere in my home directory.
1:51:28Whatever I'm working working on the current project terminal window
1:51:32and then as you go to the right one of the mini is like the most recent eighty people working on X.
1:51:37I do encoding on a command line and transcoding on the command line you have to add titles.
1:51:42No no I did it to show the command because I can tell like in this one says like root D.B.
1:51:47One I know what that means like that's like that so I have a couple of servers doing if I'm doing local of development
1:51:55I have my ski well window open I have a P.H.D. Window open like you know but it's. It's always in the same spot.
1:52:01Like I keep the same tabs in the same spots I just get by with a lot fewer of them.
1:52:06No I do the same thing for that within tabs I have different builds that I'm working in a range in tabs by date
1:52:12or always have the release build in the far left tab for the window that I'm that I'm doing on the dead machine which
1:52:18is which is the window where I'm typing commands into then I have a separate went over several projects in different
1:52:23places similar arrangement in my log telling Windows it's in a totally different spot it's much wider because of log a
1:52:28long while ago and yeah I got one of those topics.
1:52:30I mean I feel like so a while ago I think I think this was in Bruce talking Izzy's talk on her Facebook for him like
1:52:38from I don't know him from like the late eighty's early ninety's whenever that was from
1:52:43and he mentioned there was a study that they were doing when they were both on the original Mac.
1:52:46You aren't of like that that you know comparing keyboard shortcuts to doing things with the mouse and at the time
1:52:54and probably is not true anymore but at the time they said that you know they were doing these U.I.
1:52:59Studies and people would always think the keyboard shortcuts were faster than doing things with the mouse.
1:53:06But then when they actually observe people they actually measured how fast people were doing tasks.
1:53:12Often times I think in their study I think it was the majority of the time.
1:53:16Again I don't think is a culture today
1:53:17but even though people thought that the keyboard was going to be faster in practice
1:53:22when the way people actually worked using the mouse was faster and they didn't think so but
1:53:27when you actually measure it by wall clock time it was faster.
1:53:30That's the other thing that drives people crazy
1:53:33when they especially nerds who are like the big power thing is I do everything from the keyboard my hands never leave
1:53:38the keyboard I'm a touch typist I have never had to go.
1:53:41The home keys everything is a keyboard shortcut to never need to touch the mouse.
1:53:44If you watch me use the computer I am constantly bouncing between mouse
1:53:47and the keyboard some time you're going to blow that once of its modifier thing
1:53:50and people think that must be incredibly inefficient
1:53:53but it's not because there are certain things especially if you're doing especially
1:53:58when doing things spatially ranging.
1:54:00Anything the whole point is spatially arranging things as you can grab at it in a moment's notice you know exactly
1:54:04where it is right and part of the little game the game of gauging of spatially arranging things
1:54:10but you're not going to have room for everything.
1:54:11Things are going to overlap what you need to have is a region that can be relied some corner of a thing that can be
1:54:16reliably visible you like how are you going to rein in things like a little bubble so you can find the corner
1:54:21but it becomes second nature where you quickly grab the mouse snag the corner of the window you're interested in
1:54:26because it's always in the same place you know exactly what's in it.
1:54:28If you need to change tabs within that window some people are going to cycle through them of the keyboard.
1:54:33It's faster your hand is already on the mouse click the pad that you know you want to do you want to go to the release
1:54:37build is the far left tab you could never have gotten to that prompt faster with a series of keyboard shortcuts you
1:54:43just couldn't because you'd have to like you know like it's like you know it's like iterative versus translator versus
1:54:49you know declarative one of the opposite of imperative versus declarative as they're pointed out anyway like you're
1:54:58running a program in your head.
1:55:00Some people do that so they were good at running programs like vi down five lines over three words insert character
1:55:05like that's not the way I think though I think it's over there and I just grabbed it with the mouse
1:55:09and that is second nature to me and I don't have to think about it. Well OK so today we're having a point.
1:55:14Number one the reason I brought up that whole talking
1:55:17or face study is is like how you might be thinking what you're doing is faster but it might not be faster.
1:55:24I know it's faster because people see it when people can use my computer they can't follow it. Like what are you doing.
1:55:29I didn't wait I didn't see that they cannot follow what I'm doing.
1:55:32Well I think a person who is who is like an experienced power user for computers like that I think that would apply to
1:55:39almost all those people like people who really fashion work on a computer regardless of how they're arranging things so
1:55:44anyway the second point is the way the way you arrange things how you're describing is the reasons you're citing for
1:55:51doing this make it sound like what you're trying to avoid is like having to like pull something back out of like where
1:55:58it where it lives like in an office.
1:56:00Find stories like having to open up a new window to go to something having to like you know pull out a file out of a
1:56:05Finder window or open up a new terminal window in CD of the right directory or as if you know the right thing
1:56:09or whatever but in reality like if that's what you're accustomed to like if somebody with the same level of skill
1:56:16and familiarity with with computers and using them
1:56:19and whatever system they've built up over time if they do it the other way which I think is closer to a case you know I
1:56:26do which is like a small number of windows with a higher tolerance of having to go fetch something from disk
1:56:32or whatever and I can't stand the Watcher of the show of those people it isn't like oh I have to go to this thing.
1:56:36I mean open a new and let me go into the right directory it's right here already there and then the end of it
1:56:42and then when you close the window when I'm done to clean everything out and then do the same thing five minutes later.
1:56:48But if that was the system that you had chosen to implement if that was if that was the way that you worked I would
1:56:54posit that you would be very similarly fast if not indistinguishably fat it's not it's not about what I said before
1:57:03it's a fish and sea and efficiency doesn't just involve speed but also involves cognitive load
1:57:07and this is the type of zone. So your cognitive world is manageable.
1:57:11Yeah I guess because you don't see the things that are within reach you don't think about if you find yourself thinking
1:57:16words in your head or thinking a little programs
1:57:18or star macros a series of steps that is a much higher cognitive load then you're not thinking about it all in the same
1:57:24way you don't think about it
1:57:25when you pull your phone out your pocket is always in the same pocket you don't think OK reach down get thrown out of
1:57:30pocket.
1:57:30I only have one pocket I don't have a hundred fricken pockets to go searching through I know
1:57:34but then you're only you have a working set of things I was trying to show is spatial memory is different than having a
1:57:39where every pocket is the same reason that it was going with Marco doesn't name his tabs right.
1:57:43How do you know where they are
1:57:44or you know where they are my position you don't need to have custom Pad titles on the contents of that would imply
1:57:49that you're reading the titles of the tabs
1:57:50and once you find use of reading that has attended shows you don't know where the thing is you're looking for.
1:57:54Well they also have labels to help that just like you know they're pretty light weight but you know what it looks like.
1:58:00So my main chrome window always says G M L Is the far left have I don't even know the title of the G.
1:58:04Mail tab is the same place I don't know exactly where it is I have all my Ted's own main Google window are always in
1:58:11exactly the same order as not just because like a lot of acts I close that window
1:58:15and lose an entry I can recreate it I know where everything is by position because those are the tabs that I use most
1:58:20frequently and going for something based on where it is or what shape it is or you like the color it is
1:58:27or whatever like recognizing the icon that does not require high level neurocognitive functions it just happens the
1:58:33same way you can find all the light switches in your house
1:58:36and you can recognize what your car looks like in a parking lot without reading the model number off the side of the
1:58:40thing is just visual recognition and where things are in space
1:58:43and especially as it relates to you reaching for them even if it's virtually with a mouse is so much more efficient
1:58:48ever having to read or count things John. I always have terminal open on my computer.
1:58:55It always has no less than three tabs
1:58:59and they are always showing the same things I didn't even know it was possible to name a tab because I only have three
1:59:08parking tabs open at a time and you just don't do a lot of things at once.
1:59:12I guess I just stresses me out so much just thinking about the way you work I mean obviously it works for you while
1:59:19you're not trying to I mean I think you're free to not spill it shouldn't it shouldn't stress you really is just the
1:59:25amount of things you have to do
1:59:26and also your tolerance for like if you can't manage this mess if you can't sort of like deal with this swarm of things
1:59:33if they if they feel like they're overwhelming you rather than you controlling them then that's a problem right.
1:59:37But you know like they know these things don't come into existence on their own.
1:59:40I make them
1:59:41and I put them in places the thing that bothers me are things that are created that I can't arrange that like any
1:59:47application for example like the messages that where as far as I know.
1:59:51Well I guess you can plot a separate conversation but really really want to use a single window for everything
1:59:56and I can't stand that because I have no control over what order things are in the left side bar.
2:00:00And it's just one window.
2:00:01And if something is happening to some of the conversation I have to go find it click on that little finding click on my
2:00:06A.T.M.
2:00:07It remembers window positions on a per person basis
2:00:10and I can tell who I'm talking to like how many times I accidentally typed the wrong thing into the wrong to the wrong
2:00:14person an A.T.M. Almost never.
2:00:17How many times I do it messages all the friggin time because it's the same tech stocks for everybody if you didn't
2:00:21notice that you can change the mode to switch to the conversation you want to talk
2:00:24and you end up typing the wrong thing to the ropers A.T.M. That doesn't happen.
2:00:28Even though everything was identical visually speaking like they all the colors are the same everything the same the
2:00:34only things different is the size of the windows
2:00:36and if I have four conversations going at the same time I keep track of which more people I'm talking not by memorizing
2:00:41OK this person is in the upper right
2:00:43but just window never moves unless I move it it's tied to the person I'm talking to my wife
2:00:47when it was always in the same spot on the screen
2:00:49and so I never actually type something to you a person that I should be talking to my wife because I would never do
2:00:54that it's totally in a different position. I would never grab that window.
2:00:57Whereas in messages I had to pay super careful attention to which little thing the scroll of the top in which a little
2:01:02message clicked on it it's terrible.
2:01:05All right so if we do titles for a week my favorite title so far that was actually said during the regular show is
2:01:14something that we can say right now which is nothing is resolved. Where is the mountain where the pale thing.
2:01:22Wait wait you didn't know where I don't know why I was wearing the little Lincoln thing on the top of my I.R.C.
2:01:32Window and I said where is the link to the titles. Why don't you already have a window down like you just lost it.
2:01:37You didn't know exactly where it was because I Well here's the other let me tell you why because I got my expanded look
2:01:43the link not the window I didn't have the new one is over why didn't I have any one of the title thing in it because I
2:01:48closed it when the show was over anyway.
2:01:50I turned on a little thing you know
2:01:51when I was looking for was titles because they were honest titles that incomparable dot com And so I didn't read all
2:01:57the taxes in the topic recording most when.
2:02:00Those nine pm Bob a lot I didn't read it I was just looking for the word title and didn't see it
2:02:04and saw it on expanded it and expanded it and then I said oh yes show but it doesn't say title. Oh my God.
2:02:11Pedal incomparably them like that anyway. My God And this is a hoarder will leave the show but open all the time.
2:02:19Yes I'm not I close it as soon as we're done with titles.
2:02:23You hoard everything under the sun but you all know I don't I don't not that's out of your self esteem.
2:02:29It does and I my God it is what things do you think I keep open that aren't like G.
2:02:35Mail open because males always coming in you know if there's something if I'm done reading something
2:02:39or if I don't use now it's closed and if I don't either and I don't want to like I have to remember the titles
2:02:45or thing I have to look at no there's no pending task for titles.
2:02:49Oh my God I've been the success the MacPro episode you think I should keep going all the time.
2:02:54I'm afraid going up on a bunch of Web sockets
2:02:55and exhaust my file descriptors I know that I don't I don't think it actually even works you can leave it on time
2:03:01because it clears itself out eventually breaks and does it eventually Times suffer but I can't handle this.
2:03:09I just I literally can't even. Nothing is resolved.
2:03:12This is this is either the best or worst ending to the show that I've ever heard.
2:03:16I mean we get to talk about the fall by the Play Station four controller
2:03:20but also for next week next week so that's fine. That one is always open to a T.V.
2:03:25Show not that a tab in my main window always there to show notes show notes are always there.
2:03:32Yeah because I'm always finding things during the drought.
2:03:35I don't need to open a new window for don't need to go to a bookmark I don't even know what the
2:03:39or else is a some crazy Google Docs thing I just never close it.
2:03:42So here's a question why don't you do that with more things that you keep in tabs they were like Why did you take so
2:03:50many just has that you have opened for a month and make a document somewhere with them
2:03:54or save them somewhere so that you can recall them later so you don't have to have all these tabs one in the paper.
2:04:00Right there if they're open in a browser window it's because they've gone up to another level
2:04:03but I don't want to get buried in this debate because I'll forget about it I actually do want to read it so leave it
2:04:08here if they want to read it or show it to somebody
2:04:10or it's something that I can only do on IMAX I want to remember oh yeah I went online that there was that one thing
2:04:15that I can look at on my i Pad for some reason trying to remember the like now that I know I'm acting something I
2:04:21should look at that one thing that I can.
2:04:23Good example which I have open right now is your punctuation which does this thing of like pay if you want the H T M L
2:04:28five versions you actually make if you can't watch and i OS device which is generally
2:04:33when I want to watch these videos so I have the window open to remind me hey you're sitting on your back
2:04:37and you have some free time to do something with your punctuation is there and you can only watch it
2:04:41when you're here as they don't leave the computer until you do and I did watch a bunch of the other day
2:04:44but I'm not all caught up with the window open. You can concentrate right now.
2:04:53The seven went the rabbit Windowshade Fadhil right in.
2:04:55I'd like Windowshade that I don't take issue if I take issue with you having three hundred windows.
2:05:00Marco can handle the stakes the stakes now it looks really weird to me like I don't think of it is like a phantom
2:05:07window like only I guess like the shadow of the window is there like why why just leave the window there let the whole
2:05:12point of hiding or minimizing when is it to get them off the screen completely I know
2:05:16but like most of the windows guns as the title bar and kind of are sent to be near the top anyway.
2:05:21But you can see you can see like where the window was you can visualize it being there
2:05:24and the other thing is like it used to be for like peeking behind the window like you just want to see what's behind it
2:05:29briefly but you don't want to change the focus you just go you know double click clicked
2:05:33and you know like actually shaded because the thing is behind you don't have a good way to do that these days you can
2:05:38you know if you option click the window behind you can the one before you can go back to it if you know as a doctor you
2:05:44go chase it down there to be able to come back out or do a keyboard combo for it
2:05:47but if you pick the peak you would use it if it was there.
2:05:50Surprisingly useful maybe even use it is like all the time I have lost things
2:05:54and if I've been ill you know that Peking thing actually comes in handy. This is Europe.
2:06:01I know I know this is an app that I want to
2:06:03but I'm never write an app like that because it's really complicated to make
2:06:07and you have to tie deeply into like the window serous actually using like a private undocumented Baby Eyes who want to
2:06:14maintain that maybe instead of making this be your app the file system.
2:06:19You know I think that the file system crusade has been fought as much as you can fight it
2:06:25and I think it's out of your hands now that there's nothing more was ever in my hands I was in my hands tell me about
2:06:30that time.
2:06:30There's nothing more you can do to try to convince Apple to make a new file system like you've done everything you
2:06:36possibly could to do that I can continue to complain
2:06:39but you still now you could you could refocus your efforts from that which I think is probably isn't probably has
2:06:46reached the end of what you can really do with that.
2:06:49Now you can start not making a window shade but trying to make Apple add that feature back to the O. S.
2:06:54One of the when there are several stand for a long time member.
2:06:59Yes I remember there was an incentive thing it was actually oh OK well that doesn't count.
2:07:04Yeah
2:07:04but I use I use it for years that was the last one I used eventually you know I really had my system of all those weird
2:07:09system extensions and I was the last one to go. But now you know it's long gone.
2:07:14I don't use any of those things anymore and you know
2:07:17when to try to get along with I don't miss it that much I don't miss it as much as like you know a working finder.
2:07:24Not that I'm is more like like we pay for John you know no one's going to weep for my computing it's if you saw me
2:07:36using my computer wouldn't seem that way to you have no idea how happy this crystal meth makes me just let me keep
2:07:41abusing it doesn't do is no harmful effects. If harm of like seems to be on you not me.
2:07:47That's what I want just to feel the same way when I see someone using a computer.
2:07:52This incredibly powerful computer with a huge screen and I have like two windows open
2:07:56and every time they want I mean they open a new window use it and then close it.
2:08:00I can never they never sort of arrange their workspace into like a set of things that they're currently working on
2:08:05and you never close a window.
2:08:06Well like I said the worst thing is when someone's working you know if you're doing programming
2:08:09and of having multiple files even if you know like if you have a header file
2:08:13and importation filing there's multiple like programming is necessarily dealing with multiple files
2:08:18when programming even more so there's just a lot of files and you're working on them all at the same time.
2:08:23Mike you're working in one you stop in the Org another and you stop and you kind of do
2:08:27but you're cycling between them so often that if the overhead of going to fetch the other one is too high
2:08:33and I see people they will only have one window one they call it a text editing window and filled the entire screen
2:08:40or whatever their editor is they work on one document and they close it they open another document they work on it
2:08:45and they close it they open and I can work on clothes and occasionally they'll split the view and open one document
2:08:50and like a single splitter so they can see them both at once.
2:08:53But this isn't you know a giant screen often in portrait orientation and that is like so
2:08:58and then if you want them to like do something command line they close all their editing windows because that's all the
2:09:02terminal window and they have a command and that command doesn't return given their prompt back.
2:09:07Like the frequent phrase if I am a cell saying to people as you know open another terminal window
2:09:13or get me out of the shell prompt like they just work with one and whatever that one shell prompt
2:09:17and just said this is the equivalent of not understanding my millions of Windows I can understand if you'll get
2:09:23anything done with one. Like they just use one note pad no multiple windows. Yeah this is such a false dichotomy.
2:09:30Well I'm not it's not this is the other end of the spectrum
2:09:32and sometimes I understand cases frustration in seeing someone use a computer the way they don't think
2:09:37but thing is he's not even seeing me the computer is just visualizing in his mind
2:09:41but that's the way people feel comfortable I guess that what they can keep track of is one thing at a time you crack it
2:09:46was like you know you're for a terminal and those with a couple taps and I can keep track of a lot.
2:09:51I've done this a long time.
2:09:54The thing that is if you told them you had like four windows for Safari windows open and there's a. You tabs in each.
2:10:01You know I would still think you're a little crazy but you know whatever
2:10:04but what if you say thirty windows with something to the order of six to have a window no human being I don't even you
2:10:10let everyone know as six tabs like I mean by by my bug tracking Windows four tabs here my titles
2:10:17and us what you know has no tabs because it's just a bug tracker.
2:10:21Occasionally I can solve it but I don't like consolidating things that aren't grouped together like I wouldn't stick.
2:10:26I would never stick the punctuation window as a tab in the same window as the title thing because they're all related
2:10:32because I can handle and we saw them like that and nothing is resolved nothing is resolved Marco.
2:10:40I'm frustrated enough that I that I looked at C M F saying that Windows of Syracuse accounting
2:10:45and almost for myself I use that it doesn't really matter obviously but just thinking about it distresses me.
2:10:54Well let's talk about the MacPro some just to calm me down.
2:10:57When you look at there's another window shade that happen out there.
2:11:00Never heard of this on the other hand installed so it's a crazy system act with window miser minimizers application
2:11:07lets you see what's behind the front window without minimizing the current winner to the DOT pitching added that uses
2:11:12the main feature. Now Thanks All right.
2:11:16Your choices are nothing resolved or the county on the whole the have nots Charice will see.
2:11:22Announce have to do it just doesn't bother you.
2:11:25If there was ever a time to do searches a county title this is that I think you're right.
2:11:29No one telling a lie when there is no time
2:11:31when you talking about like suddenly have time for this is no time coming around coming around.
2:11:38Once you give in to the search area Hell that's the thing I can't give C.M.F.
2:11:43It his her her oh well nothing is resolved.
2:11:47If there was ever a time I was ever a time no they're not going county about that Windows doesn't sound like bridges
2:11:55you don't think that's where it came from.
2:12:00Brigitte show over a bridge
2:12:01and you just say like well I'm going to take the thirty's the county part like there's nothing geographic it doesn't
2:12:06make any sense you just take the blanket over there he's a county that's the worst of the center using any titles
2:12:10and I mean you know you think anything is take a bear all your terrorist activity right now you do your show with this
2:12:19title on it think about it.
2:12:20No I I have never in every other suggestion the people of had of some stupid Syracuse a county title.
2:12:27I have never thought it was worth using I know what how is is one better how is this noun stuck into the Mad Libs
2:12:32better than the other.
2:12:36I think this is completely worth it if we if we use a Syracuse a county title once in this entire process in the entire
2:12:44run of however long we end up doing this I think this is a good candidate for that are you committing to only do one
2:12:50thing. Yes.
2:12:51Yeah I think we only could do it once
2:12:53and I think this is such a good opportunity I would do it now you know for a terrible titles and then
2:13:01and enjoy the crazy amount of suggestion of the you will like that and then we are all agreeing ahem C.M.F.
2:13:09That we're never going to recommend this again. Yeah yeah I'm sure this will work.
2:13:14Now Tony that's it that's really only if we start getting That's fine for Buddha.
2:13:19That was a thing I never noticed that it was yes it was a holdover from back to work that somehow leaked into our title
2:13:25early on. Yes.
2:13:31Well you know I thought going to talk about tonight we need to as it is going to be a short show we'd like barely get
2:13:37like to an hour twenty.
2:13:39Have no idea let's talk about it as you know the news isn't that interesting
2:13:42and I thought we be scraping around for you know desperation topics
2:13:46and I didn't talk to people all day about how they're not using their computers. The frost potential. They're like.
2:14:00When you see somebody else use a computer. Do you feel like they could be doing it better or faster of course.
2:14:06Yeah I know all the time I have the feeling so much I can look at other people use computers I can't imagine what it's
2:14:12like for you
2:14:13and I get there is that they're like This is the hell of your life it's not as bad as like having two hands on the
2:14:19mouse.
2:14:20Slowly I remember character up in the glove box but that's what it feels like and I feel better
2:14:25when I see people who do everything in one window
2:14:28but do everything on keyboard those touch typist people always I feel better about those people because they may not be
2:14:34as efficient as they could be but it's clear that they have a system
2:14:38and so it's like a just a flurry of commands in the screen is splitting and flashing
2:14:43and changing from one thing to the other and they're probably doing more work than they have to
2:14:46but things are happening versus the person he sees in a computer
2:14:50and you make a suggestion it's like All right so now I got to go to that server because the new window where I could
2:14:59type as you go to the server every day
2:15:04and you know there's no shortcuts no Elliot's there's no there's no keyboard shortcut there's no existing open window.
2:15:10It's like a brand new thing every time I open and terminal unknown type contact so I can you know that's
2:15:23when I see anybody using a puter and I had a lighter version of that same feeling
2:15:27when I see someone using a computer a massively powerful computer with a huge screen that has three windows open.
2:15:33So would it just drive you insane if I told you I kind of like the full screen mode
2:15:38and whatever came in on lion full screen like is appropriate for things like especially if you have an eleven interact
2:15:44with care or something you know that the full screen is not that big anyway
2:15:48and you just want to get rid of the window come and fill it up and people use spaces.
2:15:52I can kind of see what they're doing at least something is happening.
2:15:54I'm obsessive about space as they swipe from place to spaces makes your engines like this is my goofing off.
2:16:00Face in this is my work space and this is my you know console logging space or whatever
2:16:04and it makes people sort of arrange things I think swiping between all of the animation gets a little tiresome
2:16:08and kind of make me seasick.
2:16:10But one of the many reasons I don't use it and I hate forgetting what space something is
2:16:13and every time I've tried to use it I guess I don't have a system but it is a system it is not.
2:16:18I just have like a window here and like when I watch my parents use a computer I want
2:16:22and only have one window because they cannot handle overarching windows at all.
2:16:25Like once is one window behind another one of the last it's gone that they don't have object permanence for Windows.
2:16:30Where did that go from the same place where I was before I left him of do they have they have the same number of
2:16:35windows as you prefer a completely different reason. No they have like two windows.
2:16:39They have two maybe three windows like they do not have a lot of windows but they even two
2:16:43or three because they can all be on the same because they want the browser window to be really big eventually hides all
2:16:48the other ones they lose track of they have a very different problem.
2:16:53Yes we have to go to bed with you and you wondered why I was excited about splitting the screen
2:16:59and I said Oh no I don't. How do you know how many I can see on your desktop.
2:17:05That's pretty neat I have a cluster to the left oh yeah look at one's lifetime you've seen your contest.
2:17:11I just see right now you know how I saw it without even thinking about it how do you think I did it. Corner.
2:17:16Yes Hot Corner of course. Hot cars are awesome.
2:17:18Did not have to think about how how many are going to stop so I click on the Finder and then command option H.
2:17:24No it happened before without even thinking. Boom it's there in front of me I don't know how it happened.
2:17:29My hand flicked the cursor into the power of my left side I've got a couple of voltage for the things I'm working on
2:17:37now I've got my call recorder recording folder I got a hold of my wife keeps on my thing I think a folder I have of the
2:17:46media drive alias server aliases they give her a break for you in the Finder like you make an alias of the server that
2:17:53you mountain you'd like now be able to mount that easily and then every once in a while there I kind of goes generic
2:17:57and doesn't work anymore. I don't know what else.
2:18:00Never been able to reliably reconnect to a finder network share a new way besides going to the computer in the list
2:18:05and be mounting it like every other method is always failed and eventually you know this is work for me for a while
2:18:12and I keep hearing as I use a lot
2:18:13and then I've got nothing in the whole middle of the desktop on the right side of the desktop I have a bunch of files
2:18:19that are kind of like temp scrap files for work one of the files as a garage band file buddies check my levels
2:18:25occasionally because it shows the way form when I talk into it I make sure I'm not clipping to adjust again
2:18:29and stuff like that. I've got Kate's coloring pages in a folder there.
2:18:34She's always having me find pictures for her and print them out so she can call them in.
2:18:39I've got a couple of podcasts that I wish I could put into overcast but I can have his mark on the files
2:18:46and link to what is this a link to a toilet part that it is bought.
2:18:53But I need to like file that away somewhere and that's about it.
2:18:56So it may be like one two three four five six seven eight nine icons
2:19:00and then to drive I don't know how many I have one now you know do a lot of stuff you didn't just repair a toilet you
2:19:06know. Checking our microphone levels you know that.
2:19:08So I did you prepare a toilet three times actually as I kept doing it wrong.
2:19:12Did you save the links to the place where you got the parts you can find I found breaks.
2:19:16Nope because first of all who cares.
2:19:20Second of all I bought them on Amazon and Amazon keeps a whole history there than I ever bought
2:19:24and I was then of getting from these random plumbing supply companies I have right now.
2:19:28I like I really just need to turn that into a note in your Jimbo.
2:19:31Like for example I get replacing wiper blade there is forget what size of they are for the different cars for the first
2:19:35time I buy them I just write them down with links to the things and yeah Amazon is good about funny orders alone.
2:19:40Sometimes I search their art
2:19:41or history I wonder if it's like losing things is difficult because sometimes I buy through my wife's some of the
2:19:46account sometimes are mine
2:19:47but anyway I give a pretty neat stuff I mean I want to say that I want to say I think that was a lot of icons for big
2:19:54screen you know when you know it does not look like a people who don't manage their desktop just basically cover
2:19:58but I guess they look like your browser.
2:20:00Windows is what they look like now everything's manage I know exactly where everything is.
2:20:03It has a place everything has a place I don't I just I could just mouse over it just happened.
2:20:07I don't even know how it gets there. My mouth just guides itself right there.
2:20:10I could close any of these Any time I just choose not to. It's true but also how many are your own your stuff.
2:20:16That's tomorrow I don't want to cancel I'd eyeballing it from about ten to twelve the same as me.
2:20:22It's just whatever stuff you have been working on in flight and like the kids coloring page stuff I just leave
2:20:26and start just because I mean I could put and clicks over to I want to be as skinny
2:20:30and out there also because I drag things out of Safari windows I want to drag that you know once you get to the full
2:20:36size version the image of him you just feel to drag it out of the window and drop into the folder you know
2:20:41and so then the folder folder is on the desktop is easy to do that has to start the drag flicking to the corner
2:20:46or centre on the right edge half time they're visible anyway why don't you just leave the window open all the time with
2:20:50the image even has you know is I printed I want to print it it's gone it's done I'm not leaving things around Verdun
2:20:56for no reason.
2:20:57They all have a purpose and was the purpose of done and they close yes
2:21:01and less that the monitoring type thing that I'm looking at all the time like email
2:21:04and the wonderful thing is John on an infinite time scale everything for the infinite times the argument work.
2:21:14Going to timescale every window closes it were taught were done I can't take this anymore.
2:21:27The thing is going to tie into the argument is not done for the benefit of the chat room
2:21:38and the people of the other two host of this program.
2:21:41Yeah the argument is for when somebody agrees with you that something will happen
2:21:46but any time you try to pin it down with a date they say oh well no that won't happen so it's like you agree this is
2:21:52going to happen
2:21:53but the only way I can get you to agree with that is say well what about five hundred years in a future
2:21:59and say oh yeah. Well of course I haven't a five minute future.
2:22:01What about next week never what about next year never
2:22:04or the next five years never what about five hundred years in the future. OK I agree.
2:22:07So degree it somewhere between five hundred years in the future
2:22:10and now where between there is you trying to get someone to you know this is something that you both agree will
2:22:15eventually happen but every time you throw to date and it's in the conceivable future. They said no.
2:22:21So that's what the that's are you doing with an infinite time scale argument is basically getting someone to agree this
2:22:26who we both think this is going to happen.
2:22:28All were arguing about is when
2:22:30and the only way you can get to that is by throwing out a ridiculous date like well what about five hundred even if you
2:22:34are then will we have won sixteen gigs of flash memory on Iowa's devices
2:22:39and if they all share five hundred in the future of course you are right
2:22:42and that's like All right well then let's back it up and see where we can get it's not.
2:22:47But extrapolate into the future
2:22:49and say that something is going to happen if we just keep advancing times not quite the same thing is that a thing you
2:22:53know everyone has a purpose if you will.
2:22:58It's a nuance thing when you get to be using it wrong
2:23:00and I want you to be able to employ this in your life is what I feel I felt when I read it originally I was Marco.
2:23:07Well what was the original time.
2:23:10It was something we only arrive
2:23:12but I forgot it was something about like you know a feature to a harbor feature coming to max on the no you know I
2:23:17think I think it was was whether Apple needed wins
2:23:21or being swift like the whole you know Copeland twenty whatever it was like I was saying like just to see is fine
2:23:28and it will be fine for a long time
2:23:29and right as I go as a long time in you know so I will eventually they're going to need a language
2:23:34and you know what does eventually mean never to return that eventually made like six months from now. Yeah right.
2:23:40But that's all pointed all point was not to convince you that if you wait for the heat death of the universe apple of a
2:23:44new program I was at the point was to get us to both agree that they need a new one and all are going about is
2:23:50when OK we got there are so high and that eventually I win that argument but OK Are we really done now.