The Accidental Tech Podcast

96: The Windows of Siracusa County

 

  I was thinking quoting someone I probably know that open for five years now and then I thought better of him. [TS]

  I have upgraded my podcasting setup but I have not yet posted about it on my site has a really happened than K.Z. [TS]

  Set up upgrades in the woods and no one hears about it on your blog. [TS]

  I've spent ten dollars before taxes upgrade my podcasting setup. [TS]

  Now look at that you will not guess but I would [TS]

  but I will I would love to hear you try ten dollars for the Snickers bars. [TS]

  I'm guessing it's either software or OK or I was going to guess like a giant blanket or something [TS]

  but you sent me stills and a little bit echoey so it's probably not that. [TS]

  Now the blankets on the wall even though Aaron keeps asking me to take it down the chat room is getting in on it it is [TS]

  not a spit filter although I like that even better than populace or the microphone that I'm using now has one built in. [TS]

  Notice that gold audios table note is not a heating pad. [TS]

  Yes ten whole dollars you can google audio cable for ten dollars. Yeah exactly. [TS]

  Goalkeepers start at thirty dollars and I will give you one better. I will try just try to give this away. [TS]

  I purchased a sand dollar item from Apple. Can you produce anything for ten dollars from Apple. That's not software. [TS]

  Yeah how about that hey I was going to say fun thunderbolt out there is like nineteen. [TS]

  Yeah I mean like you can't go to the Apple store and buy anything for less than at least fifteen. [TS]

  I succeeded in doing exactly that one of them will sell for ten dollars [TS]

  and it was not software he said so it is not software was it was that it's actually regular price minutely puts in on [TS]

  sale at the stores. [TS]

  What I saw ten dollars did you get a symbol tool [TS]

  and somehow pay ten dollars for it this is much more I mean protectors are fifteen at least. [TS]

  This is much more entertaining than I thought I was going to be. [TS]

  Actually if this is become a topic of the league what can you buy an Apple store for ten seconds at a retail store [TS]

  online. Yes no not retail and the chat room the chairman's figured it out. Mag save it after ten dollars. [TS]

  Wow I've about one thousand dollars to this because they were like well we can sell something for ten dollars. [TS]

  I thought for sure it must have been like a third party product sold in an Apple Store so's your laptop won't run out [TS]

  of battery power during the podcast or something. [TS]

  I used to use my work I resident eclair twenty eleven MacBook Pro fifteen inch Macra pro [TS]

  but the fans constantly screamed no matter what I did it to matter what I did they were always screaming [TS]

  and market was very gentle about basically telling me to Shut Up and Deal and use a different computer [TS]

  and so eventually I had gotten air in a brand new MacBook Air This was a few months ago I got her for any medical care [TS]

  and I started borrowing that in order to record. [TS]

  Well unbeknownst to Marco [TS]

  and John I was doing this on battery power on wife I Omega which Dan Benjamin ever heard this he will probably fly to [TS]

  Richmond and murder me. I'm so happy you never told us that. You're welcome. That was the right call. [TS]

  Now I'm still on wife I But now at least I'm plugged into the wall. [TS]

  Now the wife I think I'm less concerned about because I know you're a nerd I know you're set up [TS]

  but I know you that you are probably right next to your router. [TS]

  I am indeed so I and wife I is not as unreliable as it used to be you know. [TS]

  Modern life is really not that bad if you're if you're anywhere near the near the base station. [TS]

  But the running on battery thing that would that would stress me out like crazy. [TS]

  But even if even if I was one hundred percent like I would always have that stress even if even if I had a fully [TS]

  charged eight hour battery it would still stress me out. [TS]

  Yep and the macro care does last an eternity [TS]

  but I kid you not those times that I told you I needed to go because my battery was dying that was not a lie. [TS]

  That's because the battery was dying and realtime follow up from me to me it was ten dollars [TS]

  and fifty two cents with tax. Oh my God That's incredible. [TS]

  And that in a while I will also say that I walked in with my dad who happen to be into time and I was all smug [TS]

  and happy with myself because he has a five S. I have a six. I was going to go in. Use the Apple Store app. [TS]

  I was going to use Apple Pay within the app and walk out and not have to speak to anyone. [TS]

  Well that would read that would mean that you could actually find this adapter on a wall display where you could get it [TS]

  and someone didn't have to go into the back or whatever and get it for you right. [TS]

  So as it turns out it was on the floor although it was on the opposite side of the store where I expected it was if you [TS]

  are looking at any given Apple store than a normal one anyway and you know the Genius Bars in the back. [TS]

  I thought I was to the right it turns out of to the left [TS]

  and so I grin Actually person had accosted me in a happy way when I walked in because it was surprisingly empty [TS]

  and they directed me to the thing [TS]

  and I said OK I'll just pay for it with the app you know in a nice way you can go away now. [TS]

  Well then I go to open the Apple Store app and it hangs [TS]

  and so I think to myself Self I'm a smart guy I know there are ID console over the place in the store. [TS]

  I wonder if having bluetooth on is somehow confusing it. [TS]

  So turn Bluetooth off Foursquare it started again nothing still hangs self. [TS]

  Maybe it realizes that the Apple Store wife is nearby you should kill the wife and that'll do the trick. [TS]

  Well then does it even work after that. [TS]

  Yeah because I have eight hundred eighty dollars and I didn't even know that you were in the Apple store. [TS]

  If it doesn't have one of those things are good point actually I didn't think about that that's a very fair point. [TS]

  So what's with the advent of the wife I started the app again did more so fine so then Julie I have to go over that to [TS]

  someone with my tail between my legs [TS]

  and say hey can I play for this please because I kind of can't do it on my phone all by myself. [TS]

  And so then for this nice person allows me to pay [TS]

  and I say to my dad not thinking really about what I was saying all my might Apple Pay moment is ruined [TS]

  and then the gentleman said Well no it's not you can pay right here [TS]

  and then because I had like the thought of I B consume my head I thought Oh and the thought of using Apple pay and how. [TS]

  I thought Oh well I guess I have to like turn bluetooth on are I and I say that out loud [TS]

  and then I realize the absurdity of what I just see like how doctors make the worst patients in a place like the worst [TS]

  Apple Pay. [TS]

  So yes so that's the thing is that I said out loud that was my critical mistake of saying it out loud I want to put [TS]

  your bluetooth on shouldn't I and then I realize the absurdity of what I said [TS]

  and he just sets his i Pod touch on the on the counter and I realize what he means [TS]

  and so I put my phone on top of his i Pod Touch which sounds awkward but it wasn't. [TS]

  And sure enough everything worked no problem. [TS]

  Well then it gets better because I start to walk away thinking Oh he'll send me my receipt no problem because they know [TS]

  what my credit card is in the home and magically I was at this exact same issue and they go to walk away [TS]

  and then the guy says Oh do you want your seat and I so you can email it to me [TS]

  and you know whatever the email is on file and he looks and he's like oh I don't have an email on file [TS]

  and at that point it occurs to me the whole freakin point Apple Pay is that I have you know the device whatever [TS]

  whatever ID So it's a unique credit card number for the device. [TS]

  Of course they don't have it because of never used it there before. [TS]

  So basically I should not be allowed in an Apple Store unsupervised as something they don't believe it is going to go [TS]

  where ss Maybe if your credit card was declined. [TS]

  Thing in the store or like where the payment didn't go through [TS]

  but you didn't know it so you started walking out of the attack by security. [TS]

  Yeah flipping a ten dollar might save it after Exactly. Anyway do you want to start with some follow up. [TS]

  We have so much well we we have a it's not a lot I WAS HE SAYS THE KING All right let's talk about transmit the app by [TS]

  panic. What happened with them John. [TS]

  So they got their projected for what was it for likes and exporting files i Cloud or something [TS]

  and we complained about in the past two shows [TS]

  and I think towards the end of our last show of the morning the State of the App Store in the various projects. [TS]

  As I said both the worst [TS]

  and the best thing that can happen is that as these people who have had their ass rejected get contacted by someone an [TS]

  apple and they quietly work out their differences [TS]

  and their apps are reinstated the best thing that happened because hey we get the apps that we wanted the application [TS]

  developers get their apps out of the store just like they wanted [TS]

  and it seems like everybody's out here it's the worst thing that can happen because this is what happens all the time. [TS]

  Like there's some there's some problem. [TS]

  A bunch of people get their apps are rejected or you know or pulled from the store. [TS]

  There's lots of blog buzz about it we all complain. [TS]

  Apple contacts them quietly worked out with them and put them back in [TS]

  and the cycle just repeats itself like you're never going to do we don't we never get a crisis unity right. [TS]

  We're never going to get it never gets bad enough that something has to be done I can't say that's necessarily the case [TS]

  this time because sometimes the outcome is that gets pulled. [TS]

  There's a whole bunch of Brest people complain [TS]

  and Apple doesn't change its mind like an example of that from the early days or be like that and like any S.M.B. [TS]

  Waiters or Mame type things are all those are things that have been on the store briefly [TS]

  and then immediately pull because you know how to do emulation or run code or stuff like that [TS]

  and Apple pretty much doesn't budge on that except for you know the scripting engines and games [TS]

  and other little gray areas that I think eventually are in the guidelines but it doesn't always turn out positively. [TS]

  But this type of thing where they make some decisions they linger we have to make a bunch of noise [TS]

  and then it gets worked out. [TS]

  That never makes anything get better like we're not making progress year [TS]

  or you know if we're making progress a cycle wouldn't keep repeating itself so that best worst thing that was going to [TS]

  happen did happen [TS]

  and I just saw someone add to the notes that didn't happen to try to transmit all the time for drafts which got pulled [TS]

  for its extension and I'm across it or talked about peek out which got rejected and then reinstated. [TS]

  So it's good in that in this case the absolutely want to see on the store actually dig in on the store eventually it's [TS]

  bad in that it seems like you know it doesn't seem like that Apple's making for. [TS]

  One of the the only hope I have is that under the new Apple regime where you know it just seems like Tim Cook is less [TS]

  stubborn. [TS]

  Tim Cook Apple seems to me to be slightly less stubborn than Steve Jobs Apple was it had to give Tim Cook as stubborn [TS]

  as Steve Jobs made Bendis projecting I don't know [TS]

  but we're going to talk about how the engineering organization has made progress in doing things that previously they [TS]

  were quote unquote too stubborn to do you know whether that was you know a corporate directive or whatever [TS]

  but for years there are things we wanted to be in they go they're never going to let you use keyboards. [TS]

  Doesn't he more than I was and they did and extensions and all of the stuff that is good forward progress [TS]

  and it could be I'm holding out hope maybe that some one higher up in the organization sent the word down to the App [TS]

  Store need to do less of the stuff [TS]

  and maybe this will be maybe the next time this happens we'll have a better faster response [TS]

  or maybe this won't happen again in the same way I don't know I mean people will have to wait [TS]

  but for some reason I find myself slightly more optimistic even though the best thing that happened if i'm a slightly [TS]

  out of the team because going to be like why do we keep seeing all these stories about this stuff. [TS]

  Why can't we get our act together on that you know what is it what it was [TS]

  or that we're doing that's making us do these things in the reversing ourselves obviously we're not even happy with our [TS]

  own decisions because not like they're reversing I don't think because of pressure. [TS]

  It's you know it's like inattention. [TS]

  You know the knowledge evil of inattention where it's like there's something going on there did somebody reject [TS]

  something why would they look at that [TS]

  and by the time people take a look at them like Oh this is panic they're great why we've taken of this this thing is [TS]

  just fine you know like they reversed because if the best minds in the company were put on it they never would have [TS]

  rejected in the first place just to reject it because of you know the whims of some individual or a view [TS]

  or something and that is a structural problem the fact that that kind of thing can happen [TS]

  and not be resolved without a long time passing anyway so there you go. Well and this is a little bit. [TS]

  Better a full on rejection is a little bit better than what some developers go through. [TS]

  Marc Christian wrote me a little while ago a few a couple weeks ago saying that you know he's he's one of the [TS]

  developers of the drag and drop that's D R A G O N D R O P which I've mentioned a long time ago on the show [TS]

  when he says he wrote in he said I have another idea or excuse me another app in the store called time bar [TS]

  when I tried to publish an update for your sanity after a few decided the fundamental idea of the app is unacceptable [TS]

  and I think that's because it kind of paints the menu bar as a progress meter [TS]

  and the idea of this app I guess is to count down and tell you to like get up or and walk around [TS]

  or maybe you know that the turkey's done or what have you on [TS]

  and Anyway so after you decided that the fundamental idea the app is unacceptable it violates the Mac's menu bar [TS]

  and rejected me. [TS]

  So he's stuck in limbo because it isn't kicked out of the store but he can't updated [TS]

  and that's an even worse place to be then a full on rejection as far as I'm concerned [TS]

  and you know get the hell out of here [TS]

  but I mean I guess maybe that's what panic had to deal with I don't know I guess so maybe that is the same [TS]

  when you can always pull your own app right. [TS]

  Yeah I mean I just did so [TS]

  and it is you know it's different on the mac because you don't have to use the mac app store you know [TS]

  and I was right if you have that limit I was like your product is just dead like you will you will never be able to do [TS]

  that product again and in that way [TS]

  and I feel less bad for mac developers in this regard just because there is another option there [TS]

  and it's not it's not a bad option where the I O. S. Option is like well you can put it on the city a store. [TS]

  Yeah that's like that like I was one of like you know we can go live in the woods. Nothing like that is not a business. [TS]

  Please you know Casey if you disagree but I think that it's important that when when you [TS]

  when we hear things like transmit [TS]

  and drafts getting getting there they're bad decisions reversed you know the reason why we were mad about this is. [TS]

  Not that we disagreed with the rule. [TS]

  I mean some of us might disagree with the rule but that's not the main reason why this is so destructive. [TS]

  The main reason why it's so destructive is that we can't tell in advance what the rules will be [TS]

  and Apple's refusal to document more of these rules. [TS]

  And again part of that is just because they haven't decided it yet and I recognize that that's an issue. [TS]

  But part of it also is like at the very top of the rules document says this is a living document [TS]

  and it's been pretty dead for a long time. Like it there's a lot of rules that are better not on it. [TS]

  A lot of new rules that have that have seemingly no intention of ever getting on to it. [TS]

  And it just seems like you know [TS]

  when Apple does things with many of the rules it just seems like well that makes that that makes sense like it's common [TS]

  sense. Or you can see why they're doing it like that's a sensible rule. [TS]

  It's not you can't really argue too much with it or you at least see their point of view and you can predict [TS]

  when developing an apple like launcher. [TS]

  I totally get that that was going to be rejected because they had a longstanding rule against kind of these these like [TS]

  like home screen kind of like home screen within an app siloed apps launcher like that like they've had a lot of issues [TS]

  with those in the past. [TS]

  So there are certain rules that like the that the developers all know like OK you know this idea for an app before you [TS]

  can start building it. This will almost certainly get rejected so I shouldn't build it. [TS]

  The problem is when the rules start getting really capricious and unpredictable [TS]

  and unjustifiable then developers start wasting time or actually shipping apps first [TS]

  and then they get rich later which hurt their relationship with their customers in addition to waiting all the time of [TS]

  having that being go you know it's pretty bad [TS]

  when developers waste a month on something that they're pretty sure is going to get approved. [TS]

  The worst part is that it's like Apple doesn't speak with one voice on any of these things I mean the reversals are not [TS]

  because they change their mind but just because the corporation as a whole. [TS]

  Believes that panic that should be allowed [TS]

  but the people who are tasked the individuals who it has a decision at that particular time said no so what I was [TS]

  thinking of is you know well what if we had you know if you have a questionable app [TS]

  or feature idea as part of your definition above you get two or three of these you know sort of a technical support [TS]

  and then you can say ask Apple I am playing a feature like this and it is described to be very written a line of code. [TS]

  Will this be allowed in the store [TS]

  and have a system whereby if they say yes it will be allowed in the store that you have some reasonable hope that that [TS]

  answer is meaningful in any way. Well that's hard though barring a rule change. [TS]

  If you were to ask you know like the same type people who came out of the decision now to say you transmit is allowed [TS]

  in the store with that feature. Right. [TS]

  When faced with this question hey there's a feature that same group of people whoever they are were faced with the same [TS]

  question before panicking or in a single line of code. [TS]

  and said We're thinking about this feature to transmit it's going to X. Y. and Z. [TS]

  Is that going to be allowed those same people hopefully could come up with the same answer six months ago. [TS]

  Like I don't think that much has changed since then and so yeah go ahead build that or you know [TS]

  or just be able to ask them how to time [TS]

  but the idea now is like if I can get somebody now we're going to ask them depending on who I get an adverb you the [TS]

  answer means nothing because if I get a different person on my app interviewed [TS]

  and they don't share information oh yeah I said that I could do that feature and it's OK. [TS]

  Or like even if the answer is we don't know yet and we have to like sort of regroup and have a big meeting [TS]

  and decide whether it's like do that before hand. [TS]

  Like ideally before you even write the guidelines [TS]

  and put in the guidelines for something they never thought of like we never consider this because that can happen we [TS]

  never even considered doing this in an application. [TS]

  We'll get back to you and then you're kind of in a holding pattern Middle East you're not like either just guessing [TS]

  or like asking the best sources you have [TS]

  and them them telling you probably yes no maybe those mean nothing right the idea that the company can't decide can't [TS]

  can't speak with one voice on this there is no one voice there is. [TS]

  No and I know there's millions of app developers in the everything one can be bugging out on thing [TS]

  and I have this vision of that's why I'm saying like you had to be a limited resource like to have the boardings in [TS]

  and because there's a cost associated with it and so on and so forth [TS]

  but I think this is a system that could work if again Apple could get its act together with apps or stuff and [TS]

  and some of the things like you know the situation that [TS]

  and think of some of these things like sending a father drive like people were baffled because like Margaret said well [TS]

  it's not because we didn't like the rule in this case. [TS]

  What rule what you know the rule they were signed didn't even mention i Cloud Drive in the second thing is everyone [TS]

  said is that the whole point of i Cloud Drive maybe Remus understand what my micro drive was the greatest let's build [TS]

  the sent file that like it's a thought you know it just doesn't make any sense [TS]

  and clearly you know the so-called living document has been updated to reflect all the new things we've got like [TS]

  there's no new clauses or anything in there for all these features that we got and I was eight. [TS]

  I'm still going to say that Apple's dealing with server side software and services is worse than this [TS]

  but this is probably the App Store the I was out store [TS]

  and I guess the magnets are too are their worst external externally visible administrative problems in the company. [TS]

  I think these kind of decisions are usually not like one random reviewer somewhere usually if it escalated [TS]

  or at least a couple of miles from my understanding from what I'm kind of hearing rumblings of this is a mid level [TS]

  fight with an apple like it's a mid-level conflict between mid-level department. [TS]

  Well you know there are always mid-level things but like when a mid-level thing like when stories start coming out [TS]

  and when people are writing blog post that becomes that becomes the message of the day is Apple did something bad [TS]

  and we're angry about it. [TS]

  Eventually those mid-level fights start to filter up to the higher level the higher level go what's going on down there [TS]

  with you guys I saw some stories about this thing I think nobody likes bad press nobody likes that you know [TS]

  and if it gets up to their level then all of a sudden you know whoever it is a more senior vice president goes down to [TS]

  mid-level people and says you know get your stuff together. Well what the hell are you guys doing. [TS]

  Work it out when your internal problems end up you know on the pages of you know tech news sites we have a problem [TS]

  and if that happens too many times. [TS]

  Hopefully somebody really high up will be like we have a we have a structural problem here [TS]

  and we need to sort this out like seem like it seems like they did sort out and decide to do in the engineering side. [TS]

  They made massive structural changes that have resulted in what we feel on the outside is positive change right. [TS]

  Right [TS]

  and you can tell like you know we right now nothing is resolved you know with the transmit getting approved getting [TS]

  reproved. [TS]

  This doesn't actually resolve anything it will resolve this is if we stop hearing about things like this where is like [TS]

  oh surprise there's Rule No one could have predicted and we're going to half [TS]

  and force it with some apps like that's the problem here. [TS]

  So this I hope that that that that that upgrade that happened in engineering got them to increase collaboration you [TS]

  know in Tim Cook's words. [TS]

  I hope they can apply that to this area too because clearly this is not like one rogue employee making bad decisions [TS]

  this is clearly an ongoing conflict within you know in the middle of these organizations that somebody has to resolve [TS]

  and it's not going to resolve itself at levels it's it's at. [TS]

  Obviously there's some kind of back and forth going on here that that's not good. [TS]

  We didn't even talk about this last time but some we had a link [TS]

  and last week it was about that post where I think it was someone quoting from you they're quoting from are like [TS]

  recalling what someone told them over the phone [TS]

  and the idea was that this is a guy I think this is here is this hearsay about going to launch a developer right at the [TS]

  App Store people said we rejected your app because it's a high profile app [TS]

  and we figured by rejecting your app you know a lot of people notice [TS]

  and it will get the message out to the rest of the developers that they shouldn't do things like you've done like they [TS]

  were making an example of you like that's there someone supposedly articulated this philosophy of App Store of how we [TS]

  communicate our policies we don't write them into guidelines. Instead we take a high profile up and make an example. [TS]

  It's all the other application developers see it head on the pot on a pike [TS]

  and you know know not to go there anymore no don't do it this developer did which is a it's amazing some of it said out [TS]

  loud to a developer and B. [TS]

  Even if that's your secret strategy it's a terrible secret strategy like that is not the correct way to communicate to [TS]

  your application developers there are better ways. [TS]

  Yeah that's what I call disgusting on my blog because it's like that a really truly disgusting [TS]

  and yet so it was the developer of launcher I think his name is Greg and will a lot of people they don't [TS]

  and yet he was paraphrasing the the conversation he had with likes like a reviewer called him in response to some of [TS]

  these inquiries. [TS]

  That's what they do and you inquire [TS]

  and then if you're lucky you get like a random phone does what I said the agents meant phone call you get like a random [TS]

  phone call from somebody who usually you don't get a name [TS]

  or any way like contact them again this is a one way ones coming from like the main Apple switchboard number like you [TS]

  can and then you can do about it. [TS]

  And they're usually very terse like they I've done a couple these calls for various questions I've asked [TS]

  or issues are going to end [TS]

  and usually they're pretty terse that because they know that there's a good chance they're going to be quoted [TS]

  and put on a blog somewhere and so you know they can serve words [TS]

  and they were very noncommittal with many things they say. [TS]

  And occasionally you'll get somebody who is a little bit more helpful [TS]

  and he did think they were a little too thoughtful in explaining you know why they're doing some of these things [TS]

  and if that is true I mean you know we don't have any validation we will never get any validation from Apple whether [TS]

  this is true or not I don't think he has any reason to lie about it [TS]

  and even if he's exaggerating about it it's even then it's still pretty terrible. [TS]

  And those people who call those are mid-level people that's not the person spent six minutes with with you know ten [TS]

  thousand apps a day like that that is a mid-level manager you're talking to that's like through the app the approved [TS]

  review board or whatever they call it that like that's where that phone call comes from. So anything they say. [TS]

  They usually is pretty credible as the current policy of preview [TS]

  and overthrow here say because we're going by what the developer says that someone from Apple said song just under [TS]

  saying this is not a confirmed thing. [TS]

  No [TS]

  but I'm saying I'm sure you know the nitty gritty details are probably suspect because you know people have bad memories. [TS]

  I don't know if you record of the call. [TS]

  Probably not but the big picture like the general idea is probably right [TS]

  and if the person who called him said that that is not the actions of just one little employee somewhere buried in [TS]

  Apple that the actions of a mid-level person and that's that substantial. [TS]

  So I'm all depressed now so why don't you tell me about something that's really cool. Absolutely. [TS]

  So we have something a little bit special this week a song sponsor this is a song instead of me doing a sponsor read [TS]

  not a fish song or that they know it it is way better than that it is a Jonathan Mann song. Oh that is way better. [TS]

  Yeah see we got it we got to go in this time. This is this is for dash dash dot com I give you a quick story. [TS]

  So I met Scott a rally from from dash at Singleton this year he came to me the Hi I'm I'm the guy from dash [TS]

  and for the first twenty [TS]

  or thirty seconds that conversation I thought he was the guy who made the developer documentation app dash which is why [TS]

  I haven't run an act I was going to guess Mrs Dash and he was not salty. [TS]

  The first twenty [TS]

  or thirty seconds I said some things they were like that probably did not make any sense to him at all like looking [TS]

  back on it it was pretty embarrassing and really embarrassing thing is I never corrected it. [TS]

  Like I never said oh I'm sorry I thought you were that other guy just kind of. [TS]

  Once I realized it I just kind of roll with it. So I'm here I am. [TS]

  During the Iran first going to apologize to him publicly because I still haven't told him that. [TS]

  So this is my my coming out on that. And second of all he was such a nice. [TS]

  Guy that even if you thought I was saying didn't quite make sense he didn't let on at all he does roll with it [TS]

  and he did as far as I can tell I was not busted there. So if you knew he was nice enough not to embarrass me anyway. [TS]

  He's a really nice guy [TS]

  and so here it is the Johnson Man Song for dash dash dot com will get where you can delete create real time dashboards [TS]

  the show information. There are dozens of those services like take for granted it. [TS]

  Don't forget to edit the best background the desktop is there [TS]

  and it's got a great job so the web lines tables the news breaking pricing model is like the dashboard for free for ten [TS]

  bucks a month on the limited private best course could be yours. [TS]

  So go to the currently running from now but the dot com desk. [TS]

  You'll be able to get back to you know cause paid back better. [TS]

  So thanks a lot to the dash dot com Go there and check out dash it's pretty cool [TS]

  and yeah the Guy Rundle Scott is really really nice. [TS]

  Thanks a lot to today go to the dash dot com All right so the whole of the Internet has sent us. [TS]

  Link with regard to cross the road which I almost called Cross Seeburg. [TS]

  It was built by two Victorians and your son who is twenty four and Matthew Hall who is thirty nine [TS]

  and among other things they said that the game has generated enough for them to retire. Quote seven figures is correct. [TS]

  One of them said. [TS]

  So that answers the question as to whether or not they're making any money on this game [TS]

  and it sounds like the answer is yeah. [TS]

  Oh yeah I mean to be fair my original statement when they were positioned that like number five top free app. [TS]

  But number two hundred top grossing my original statement was that basically it was it was probably out of proportion [TS]

  that they were not really making as much money as they probably should with that level of free downloads [TS]

  and then of course last week after a couple of updates changed it and dramatically improve their rank. [TS]

  So yeah good job for them. [TS]

  The most interesting thing in the story is that they were who assisted one of the developers are saying the quote we [TS]

  always wanted to build the popular game but we didn't think we could build a game that could generate money. [TS]

  Everyone else in the industry will tell you that you need to squeeze people need to do this and that [TS]

  and get some things behind a paywall you're told that if you're not making Clash of Clans Clash of Clans clone you're [TS]

  doing it wrong. [TS]

  I feel very very strongly of there are other ways of doing so they have the same doubts about why can we make a game [TS]

  that isn't annoying that monetize is a nice way. [TS]

  They you know they want to make a popular game [TS]

  but they didn't think they could build a popular game they were actually Jari money because they didn't want to do all [TS]

  the scummy things that all of us free to play games do. And a feel good story because they made a great game. [TS]

  They did it the way they wanted with extremely gentle monetization and they made a lot of money [TS]

  and you know as Mark said they could have made even more money [TS]

  but once that once you're into another money to retire I think they're going to enjoy their retirement a lot more [TS]

  having made a game that they're proud of rather than having even double the money. [TS]

  But just feeling bad about the way they got it because they seem like that kind of people one of developers that it [TS]

  took him. [TS]

  Only say six weeks to get all the characters just by playing the game like not paying any money [TS]

  and he said other people done in two weeks so they made this game and they knew it was both possible [TS]

  and probably pretty darn fun to not pay a cent and play the game [TS]

  and yet they're still on that up making tons of money because I mean half of it is make a really good game [TS]

  and the other half is making make a really good game that happens to get some traction in the market [TS]

  and you kind any Both of those but making a really good game helps a lot. Yeah definitely. [TS]

  And like you said it is a happy story and [TS]

  and that really does make me feel good for not having to pay to take you know I still have to pay for it because I [TS]

  don't I just play with the black sheep all the time and I want an example machine and I said I should [TS]

  but I should give some money for it eventually I don't know [TS]

  and no one my family for my kids have paid my wife has found out that [TS]

  when you get the the trial thing where it shows you hate try out these three characters for a limited time. [TS]

  She tells me that [TS]

  when they offer them to you the discounted price that you can pay for them with the little coins that you get for free [TS]

  so you don't have to put in the actual money in it [TS]

  and it is still quote unquote by characters that are offered to you for a trial which is yet another way that they're [TS]

  not getting money from you as they take up these fake coins in the game [TS]

  and use the points about the characters no real money ever passed to us at all. [TS]

  Yeah it really is surprising but it shows that it can be done. Which is which is really exciting. [TS]

  Tell us about your Play Station four in D L N A support. [TS]

  Yeah I was complaining about how how crappy the P S four is media centrifuges are compared to the P S three that was [TS]

  kind of part of the fact that the P.S. or Was like no this is a game machine is not a mere sound like the X. [TS]

  Box One like it's kind of a differentiator. [TS]

  It's also probably a prior prioritisation thing where like Sony was conjoining of making the best console for playing [TS]

  games hardware wise and if that's your priority you're going to put all that stuff off. [TS]

  Alberto Sandra sent a tweet that said the rumor is that support is coming in early twenty fifteen [TS]

  and that the hold up was it was waiting for a final certification a new deal and I expect that I could have it also. [TS]

  Another reason is being delayed but I'm glad to hear that it's coming [TS]

  and then it was the first person to tweet me the story that Plex is coming for P S four. [TS]

  In fact depending on what country you live in a mayor to be out for the P S four it's not out yet for the U.S. [TS]

  Because as plex says on the link in the show notes Sony has multiple business units to cover different regions [TS]

  and to the business units need to approve the app. [TS]

  And so people processes don't all go in sync [TS]

  and I think Sony struggles are preoccupied with things at this point anyway [TS]

  but waiting for them to approve the flex app for the U.S. [TS]

  Store and once that is available I don't know of the can be free or pay or what [TS]

  but anyway plex will be on the P S four which can make sense and an Intel processor [TS]

  and places that are available for a million other things anyway. [TS]

  So multiple media related features are on their way for the P S four and I am happy about it [TS]

  and we never found a compatible Bluetooth remote did we. [TS]

  Nonsense when I asked and no one has sent me any tweets [TS]

  or anything about a couple people have said their harmony remote works with it. [TS]

  If you want to buy our interim world didn't world in the chat says apologies for recommending a harmony apparently it's [TS]

  limited aka no playback controls. [TS]

  Other people tweeted at me that like this someone said hey I use my harmony with it [TS]

  and I tweeted them which was the exact model that you have and didn't get a reply. [TS]

  I mean like I said there are solutions where you can buy a little you know U.S.B. I.R. [TS]

  Dongle or something and shove it in there and then but all those get better views and I don't want that anyway. [TS]

  But yeah no no rumors of a meteor mode yet [TS]

  but of the media center features first I guess enough in the last episode I think it was [TS]

  or certainly recently we talked about Twitter and creepiness [TS]

  and this is spoken about kind of violently on a recent episode of connected. [TS]

  On really fam [TS]

  and a little birdie told us that they had Twitter in their offices for a few hours in the last couple of weeks [TS]

  and supposedly Twitter said they had over twenty million devices that opted into that creepy thing where the. [TS]

  We're Apple scanned what other apps are on your device. [TS]

  So if you hear if you have the latest Twitter app [TS]

  or version you could have opted out of this apparently I have never I haven't run the official Twitter app and ages [TS]

  but the little like canceller or X. or Whatever was so small that everyone literally just missed it. [TS]

  But apparently according to Twitter according to this little birdie it was done entirely to build up some new ad [TS]

  targeting capability the rolling out next year. [TS]

  And with regard to what John was saying about well maybe Apple's going to do something about this [TS]

  but either because Twitter's big or maybe they can't because Twitter's big. [TS]

  Well apparently they're the number five globally ranked Iowa SAP And so Apple is extremely aware of what Twitter's up [TS]

  to all that from a little birdie aware. [TS]

  But then it's like OK so they're talking the like you know that you know you know that I'm going to just be like well [TS]

  you know some some mid-level person that's going to pull the Twitter out that sounds like these are very more higher [TS]

  level negotiations between the companies to discuss what they're after doing and to work out something. [TS]

  I'm hoping that's happening now. [TS]

  If it's not then Apple is dropping the ball because there is not paying attention you know or they see it happening [TS]

  and don't care and figure well if people don't know [TS]

  but I don't I don't I can't fathom the strategy like it so if this whole thing is just so at odds with everything else [TS]

  they do we just talked about the Apple Pay stuff now [TS]

  and not sending in the information Katie would like to share with the Apple store as his you know complete anonymity [TS]

  and you know we don't like your data we won't let the N.S.A. [TS]

  Look at your messages you know all this all the stuff and then [TS]

  but will lead to a scan every tab on your thing a report back read targeting like that. [TS]

  It's crazy when it's important to clarify too that it isn't just Twitter that does this. [TS]

  There are lots of other there are ad packages out there at Analyst packages that that many apps integrate that do the [TS]

  same kind of like super creepy scanning for all the apps you have and stopping and that's what I think. [TS]

  Really I think Apple should care about this problem because of this it last week. [TS]

  It does violate the perceived walls that exist between apps [TS]

  and I alas like I as a user assume that apps can't creep on each other like that they can look around [TS]

  and see everything else on your system and they can't see your data. [TS]

  But even the list of ads you have installed that can do things like probably pretty easily uniquely identify you within [TS]

  like maybe an IP range [TS]

  and so all these all these different things Apple's trying to do to reduce the ways they can uniquely identify you [TS]

  between app and stalls. [TS]

  Those are out the window are between us from the same manner those are all out the window all the president fire stuff [TS]

  like that. [TS]

  So you know Apple has done things in this area before the show that they care about this problem I would say this is a [TS]

  similar facet to that problem of user privacy expectations and device tracking and uniqueness there [TS]

  and so I I hope Apple is thinking about taking steps in the OAS to make this technically impossible [TS]

  or at least substantially more limited than how it is now. [TS]

  Anyway also related to this I said last week that I was seven and forward MAC addresses were returned as all zeros. [TS]

  The best Q.A. Engineer ever met Nick Arnott who knows how to break everything that I write. [TS]

  Also broke that statement points out that it's close but it's actually zero two followed by all zeros. [TS]

  It's mostly zero there's a single two in there. [TS]

  Thank you to Nick are not for finding the little bugs me I said once again mostly zeroes means a non-zero sum like. [TS]

  Yes I don't know that's right. [TS]

  Sorry I have not attended one of those in a while I don't know why don't you tell us about the Google authenticator app [TS]

  that you are overjoyed with two groups of three. So this is the Google authenticator after you run they give you your. [TS]

  Little time based two factor authentication code is just got a set of six digit number that changes every thirty [TS]

  seconds or whatever the interval is and so when you log in with two factor authentication Can you name your password [TS]

  and give you a challenge is that into your code then you take your trusted device like your phone or whatever [TS]

  and you read this number off the six digit number and if you read the number off [TS]

  and I've been in a lot of boxes as you tend to do when you first enable it. [TS]

  It's not so bad after that you find it annoying that it you have to transcribe six digit number under mild time [TS]

  pressure. [TS]

  Although sometimes I was absent I get worse because I was recently use an i OS app where it challenges you with the [TS]

  code [TS]

  but if you're Google authenticator is on the same device of course then you have to either double tap home of it's in [TS]

  the multitasking switcher [TS]

  or singled out palm to go you know to go to Google a hundred years to get the number look at the number. [TS]

  Now you have to memorize the number because you have to switch back to the other apps you memorize the number. [TS]

  Switch back to the other app I want to do that with this one app I forget what it was if I would resume the other app [TS]

  and it would immediately take me back to the username [TS]

  and password screen away from the inn so then I was under time pressure based on how much time was left to enter on the [TS]

  ice cube or would know autocomplete my username and my password which are pretty darn long [TS]

  and then enter that six digit code. [TS]

  But my complaint many many shows ago I don't remember [TS]

  when was that Google authenticator app presents a six digit number [TS]

  and does not present it is two groups of three numbers they just did a six digit number all stuck together which is [TS]

  crazy because it's like the U.S.B. [TS]

  Connector all those things like if if your job is to make this application [TS]

  and if what this application does is display a six page number like what do you even think about it how can I do my job [TS]

  well think you know your only job is to display a number. Your only job is to make you connect. [TS]

  What is it that makes you a connector What is it that makes it easy to to look at [TS]

  and transcribe a three digit number you always break belong armors into groups [TS]

  or even credit card numbers are broken up into groups of four like a phone. [TS]

  It's like you don't just put all the numbers together. Six is too many. [TS]

  So anyway Alexandra I do Hill tweeted at me that the new updates to Google authenticator app has two groups of three [TS]

  numbers. Finally And then later in the day it remains one of his last name. [TS]

  Morey myself Scott had thought the same as my sister EON but different way. [TS]

  Romaine said that [TS]

  when I worked at Google last year after listening to on your pod cast I filed a feature request for breaking up the [TS]

  digits into a fan to get or I was that glad to see they finally paid out. [TS]

  So whether this is directly related to his bitter request [TS]

  or not I think Romain greatly for connecting the dots connecting my complaining to an actual feature request inside [TS]

  Google and then many months later now finally I get two groups of three numbers that is fantastic. [TS]

  So your life is complete. Everything is right in the world. [TS]

  Well it's not like I get annoyed about these things all out of proportion because people are going to you out of one [TS]

  job dot org It's not kind of like you had one job [TS]

  but just like if you think at all about doing some simple job well like you had to burn a big white board what are the [TS]

  things that contribute to me doing my job well. [TS]

  Like on the connector What are the properties of a good idea versus bad just even just think about it for a second [TS]

  or less like the top five like a family feud over you know it's [TS]

  and for showing numbers like there's not that many things make sure the numbers are readable like it's just numbers you [TS]

  don't have to worry about like to the oh look like a zero or any other OS It just all you've got is numbers [TS]

  and you don't have to take anything else about it already six digits you know everything about it. [TS]

  They did stuff like make it flash red when it's about to expire like all subtle things like that [TS]

  but nowhere did they think you know what six digits shoved all together is kind of hard to transcribe [TS]

  or memorize a reason we did two groups or three will be a lot easier [TS]

  and it's not like people are unfamiliar with grouping and anyway it's done now I'm done complaining I'm happy if you [TS]

  and I will say once again ever and I think I should not be using the word [TS]

  and together I should be using whatever their favorite app is I know about it. [TS]

  There also sponsored this week by Lynda dot com L Y N D A dot com slash A.T.P. [TS]

  when The dot com is an easy [TS]

  and affordable way to help you learn with high quality easy to follow video tutorials instantly stream thousands of [TS]

  courses created by experts on software web development graphic design and more go to Lynda dot com slash A.T.P. [TS]

  To see for yourself with L Y N D A dot com slash A.T.P. [TS]

  when There are commas fresh new courses at a daily they work directly with industry experts [TS]

  and software companies to provide timely training. [TS]

  Often the same day new version releases hit the market when the dot com offers courses for all experience levels. [TS]

  Whether you're a beginner or advance an all these courses are produced at the highest quality. [TS]

  These are not like you know homemade youtube videos these are really like top quality video course I've seen many of [TS]

  them myself. [TS]

  I can really honestly say they are extremely good I'm always very impressed by the quality both technical quality the [TS]

  content quality the quality of people making them these are professionals in their fields. [TS]

  These chords are broken up into bite sized pieces you can learn at your own pace. [TS]

  You can go start to finish [TS]

  or you can just watch a couple things in the middle next to the video as you watch it there's a searchable transcript [TS]

  and it scrolls along with with what they're saying as they say it so you can go through you can jump around you can see [TS]

  oh let me skim through this only let me come to that part. [TS]

  Or you can go back and say oh let me go back to when they said this so so good. [TS]

  You can learn while you're on the go with the lynda dot com apps for i Phone i Pad an Android [TS]

  and i try to have a premium subscription if you want you can even download the courses two for offline use into their [TS]

  app you can like a load of a bunch for a big plane trip or something like that [TS]

  and just have a whole bunch of offline use plus they have a simple project file you can get your credit won't [TS]

  instructor Anyway I like my feeling about Lynda dot com is their pricing so if something is like paid her purse thing I [TS]

  will almost never use it like Joe I mentioned earlier developer technical support tickets as a limited resource for the [TS]

  apple developer. Oh Graham I have never used a D.T.S. Ticket because you get I think it's two years I really do. [TS]

  I think that's right but I'm not sure I've been developing a regular devil developer since two thousand and eight [TS]

  and never used a single one of those because I'm always afraid that oh I'm burning something that's like that's a very [TS]

  limited resource. So well in that outcome you don't have to worry about like oh my. If I watch a video for X. [TS]

  Dollars you know my going to get enough value out of it. [TS]

  It's a flat rate you pay twenty five bucks a month [TS]

  and you get unlimited access to their entire catalog for as long as you keep paying twenty five bucks a month. [TS]

  So it's great you can just watch whatever you want you can jump in you can have a snack on a few different things you [TS]

  can go you can do that is total course change like if you signed up for web development courses [TS]

  and then all the sudden you want to make a pod cast you can do that they have all these courses you can there's just so [TS]

  much there they have over one hundred thousand video tutorials [TS]

  and again twenty five bucks a month gets you unlimited access to the entire catalog they have such a big range they [TS]

  have things like create like the Adobe Creative Suite apps for how to use those learn how to use Final Cut Pro learn [TS]

  how to negotiate in business you can learn how to make web apps how to make software how do you know how to make native [TS]

  apps they have different programming language courses [TS]

  and again this is a beginner to expert they have you know how to program you can get the whole thing right from there [TS]

  all the way down to like what's new when I was eight. Things like that they are really a huge range of courses here. [TS]

  Again being an expert very well covered anyway. [TS]

  Lynda dot com is offering a seven day free trial to access all course for free. Go to Lynda dot com slash A.T.P. L.-Y. [TS]

  N.D.A. Dot com slash A.T.V. and You can cram in as many courses possible to seven days. [TS]

  I meant to give you this holiday break actually you know if you're going to if you're going to have an indication [TS]

  around the holidays next week you should definitely consider get a list written for the week [TS]

  and just watch as much as you possibly can. Anyway when the dot com slash A.T.P. For that free seven day trial L.-Y. [TS]

  N.B.A. Dot com slash. [TS]

  They thought [TS]

  when the Congress Monsour once again Mike you are in the chat room reminds me that if I'm doing the authentication code [TS]

  I was I could just copy [TS]

  and paste the code rather than memorizing it I'm so accustomed to only using the authenticator I have to like enter it [TS]

  on my mac or something and yes and I could use a copy pasting [TS]

  or as I can tell you I could name to check out one of those because that that frustrates me a lot like [TS]

  when I have my own life my I was there I thought I want to transfer time [TS]

  and I know the million utilities that do that synchronization but I never quite get around to loading. [TS]

  But anyway I hope you find a good one and I've also I've always intended to set something like that up [TS]

  and just never actually do it. [TS]

  Well whatever happened to pay spot because that was amazing when it first came out [TS]

  and I don't even think it works anymore. [TS]

  Well originally the problem they had was that you had to get a launch piece [TS]

  but in order to get it to to copy because I remember they were the ones I believe yeah who did the silence. [TS]

  Yeah yeah yeah that's right try to keep running in the background. [TS]

  But now that's not a problem anymore and assume all the good ones out there just you know do it as a background thing. [TS]

  Well you still can't you store not running the back on consulates [TS]

  or playing not yelling I could build that into over just as if you had to be playing a pod cast it will continuously [TS]

  think you're doing an extension I was I just flick up [TS]

  or go to you know like seems like there's other ways to have to do today center which I don't have to reject you. [TS]

  Yeah so let's talk about hockey and I don't mean the sport. [TS]

  So Microsoft acquired hockey app and that's weird but kind of awesome. [TS]

  I really like the Microsoft that azure like has spawned from in so far as they're not the old guard way [TS]

  or if it's not Windows not office then get the crap out of here. [TS]

  It's the new year all things to all people kind of Microsoft and I'm not sure what the play is with regard to hockey [TS]

  but I like the thinking there I like the idea [TS]

  and I think it's a really good idea that could fit in really well with their existing Ascherman. Services offerings. [TS]

  So I really dig it in principle but I was curious to hear what the two you especially Marco thought about this. [TS]

  Can you be firm [TS]

  and then can you explain it to me because I know hockey only because I've been on betas that use hockey have to [TS]

  distribute the beta versions of their I was happy to me but I don't understand what Microsoft would do with this. [TS]

  They distribute beta versions of Windows Phone apps does Maki already do that I don't I don't understand the synergy [TS]

  here at all. [TS]

  But I confess that I just don't know what Hawking maybe has done over the gab does besides [TS]

  but I've used it for was installed better than I was and to be clear that's all I've used it for [TS]

  but the way I'm theorizing this is that Microsoft is kind of quietly especially with Azure specifically trying to be [TS]

  kind of a one stop shop for off all the backend stuff with regard to mobile apps. [TS]

  So mobile services seems to do a really good job with you know hey we'll give you a decent A.P.I. [TS]

  To do some basic stuff like I think that you can. They give you an A.P.I. [TS]

  That will make it really easy to do user accounts based off of Twitter or Facebook they make. [TS]

  There's a bunch other things that they got in there I haven't looked at in a while [TS]

  but my guess is they're trying to make it so that if you are writing like let's say I thought about writing a shared [TS]

  grocery list app and I don't want any more recommendations of what's yours I've got it under control [TS]

  but in the same way John doesn't need any more recommendations about effective stuff. [TS]

  What I'd like to write that sort of app [TS]

  but I need to have a way of doing doing user accounts I need to have a database back [TS]

  and I need to have some sort of web based A.P.I. and I would need to distribute beta builds. [TS]

  Well three of these things I could do on Azure [TS]

  and the beta builds all soon be able to do want to answer if that's what envelops hockey app so I'm assuming they're [TS]

  trying to be a one stop shop for anything that isn't on the device that your mobile app would need in order to be [TS]

  successful. But this is a type of. [TS]

  Where that Apple doesn't play nice with anymore which is if you're doing something that is like a platform function [TS]

  like I want to write a compiler that lets you build I was absent [TS]

  or I want to you know write I mean you know write write something lets you manage the assets for your application [TS]

  or build your interfaces [TS]

  or you know anything having to do with development stack a couple ones own they own the idea they made their own [TS]

  compiler like they are all the tools you know verification tools code signing tools like it's all Apple stuff [TS]

  and beta distribution Apple bought tests like you know [TS]

  and before that like it's just not that I was going to go out of the way to break up now because they didn't before [TS]

  anyway. [TS]

  And it's relying on technologies that Apple is making it [TS]

  but if you were I would not sign up to try to make a tool that supports the Apple ecosystem for developing applications [TS]

  because I would just know that even if I'm allowed to live my time is limited because either Apple will start making a [TS]

  free competitor to me [TS]

  or they'll do something that breaks my thing without any pity visibility never been a demand first place not [TS]

  intentionally but it still does happen like that is a that is a very dangerous business to be in these days you know. [TS]

  I may get something from Microsoft as well. [TS]

  They care they get enough revenue to support this type of effort [TS]

  but I guess that's kind of part of the acquisitions like once Apple bought test flight it's like Well Apple has decided [TS]

  what they're going to do about this because there was you know there are these third party utilities into this thing [TS]

  that Apple wasn't doing so Apple could have developed their own thing and also they could have got somebody [TS]

  when they buy somebody had to say well they bought somebody in a war than us. [TS]

  So now it's time to sell to whoever else wants to buy us and it was Microsoft. Yeah I mean it's important to point out. [TS]

  Hockey does other things beyond just the beta stuff. [TS]

  For instance they have their crash reporting tool but not great on a crash log and send it in from the app [TS]

  and everything and they also have you know obviously the cross-platform stuff so. [TS]

  There is still some value even if they can't develop betas to Apple anymore [TS]

  or they can ship atest Apple devices more it's less value certainly [TS]

  and they are they are never going to be able to match what the new Apple test flight does because an apple test flight [TS]

  completely does away with you knowing you the ideas and you just get you get e-mail address people [TS]

  and it lets them install your app and all the devices. [TS]

  Well they have the adventure they will hopefully be able to be more reliable [TS]

  and responsive than Apple because right so right now so as soon as Apple test light thing came out I canceled my hockey [TS]

  plan [TS]

  and never uses again because I don't need it for the crash reporting because the other has I use crash from a crash reporting [TS]

  crash Linux also has a beta shipping product. [TS]

  They also have analytics [TS]

  and Twitter bottom doing crash reporting is in this exact same category I want you know a nice symbolic crash reports [TS]

  with all sorts of information. I OS doesn't provide it for me natively I'll use crash Linux right. [TS]

  Like that's exactly the type of tool that's like something that Apple should do there's a gap a third party comes in to [TS]

  fill that gap is able to succeed in till unless Apple either buys them buys a competitor [TS]

  or does something else that makes it so you know so that everybody stops using them [TS]

  and uses whatever Apple is officially blessed in theory yes in practice most of the time Apple does things like this. [TS]

  The apple version sucks. [TS]

  It is with a crash reporter erode the adversion often does suck [TS]

  but once the Apple version exists at all then there is even greater chance that the way the third parties are doing it [TS]

  will become less supported or break [TS]

  or whatever because Apple then has a good story like oh we're sorry we didn't mean to break that or whatever [TS]

  but it's not really a high priority for us to make sure that it's working because we do have our own offering [TS]

  and have you checked it out and then you could say yeah but you know things but no [TS]

  but I mean theoretically that's been the case for a long time. [TS]

  But in practice like I like i Tunes Connect has include crash logs since before. [TS]

  Existed since all of these crash loggers that came out all all have come out after Apple has included crash logs [TS]

  and i Tunes connect. [TS]

  Originally the items in the graphic were delayed by a like a week and they were never symbolic [TS]

  and you had to lay down limits while giving yourself and I think some of that has been improved since then [TS]

  but it's still also they have to they have to abide by the by the system setting that says Do you want to send [TS]

  diagnostics to Apple and app developers [TS]

  and if you say no to that you won't get crap like from them to write in to connect. [TS]

  But your app doesn't know about that said they can't read that setting even if you wanted to [TS]

  and so your app bypasses that and the any crash log or that you embed in the app like Crash links or hockey. [TS]

  Those will say regardless so you're getting more data from more people faster. [TS]

  You're just hoping with those type of schools that you are below the note This feature is below the notice of Apple [TS]

  like Apple has bigger fish to fry. [TS]

  They're not going to worry about making a much better crash reporting thing because they have something there [TS]

  and you know like on their priority list to really low down. [TS]

  Eventually you have to think they will get to it [TS]

  and this is the history of mac software has been some third party make something cool [TS]

  and it seems like Apple would never do something like better is not interested in something like that. [TS]

  Sometimes these little things get snapped up relatively quickly. [TS]

  Like for the old timers out there the clock in the menu bar was a third party application [TS]

  and fairly quickly I think it was maybe less than a year maybe was only a couple years the fairly quickly. [TS]

  Apple said they caught him in your bar is a good idea. We should build that into the O. S. [TS]

  Right so that's the end of you know. [TS]

  Well not the end of their party clocks in the menu bars [TS]

  but for most people at the end of their party like so many people those use the built in one right. [TS]

  And other times they'll be something that third parties make that everybody loves that Apple just doesn't do it for [TS]

  years and years and years either because they are just like philosophically opposed to it [TS]

  or because it's a frivolous thing that they're not they don't care that much about their much higher price. [TS]

  He's the crash reporting it seems to me that eventually they'll get around to making their crash reporting thing better [TS]

  so it's closer to the third party ones out there [TS]

  but it hasn't happened in what how many you know how many years of these things been out a couple years like six it's [TS]

  been a lot of years. [TS]

  Must be I mean to be fair if you had to make a prioritized list of things that I'd like to work on in terms of [TS]

  developing for the Magen I like you probably One progress reporting very high on things like code signing [TS]

  and provisioning and [TS]

  and beta stuff I mean so that's why is obviously the better thing to be concentrating on right now [TS]

  but it's a difficult business. [TS]

  The range between like what what's the what's the best third party crasher Porter that you that is possible to build [TS]

  given the structure that we have an I O. [TS]

  Us versus what's the best part reporter Apple can [TS]

  or is likely to ever build like there isn't a whole lot of room for improvement there. [TS]

  The crash reporters like between talking trash with X. [TS]

  I've used them both now I first use hockey for Caster in the beta and I was at your request with X. [TS]

  It's I'd say they're pretty much the same in the in the quality of the crashes they report and how they do that. [TS]

  That role like there's only so so much you can do there. [TS]

  Realistically speaking with with the way the runtime works and everything so that's all fine. [TS]

  So it's like why Microsoft want to buy HOCKEY I think the fact is simple like this is a multi a multi tool company they [TS]

  have multiple tool to support developers. Twitter bought crash for the same reason. [TS]

  Twitter buck rational text because Twitter wanted to own a developer tools platform [TS]

  and give them a lot of useful analytics. It gives them a lot of ins with developers that's to sell their other S.T.K. [TS]

  Services on Microsoft wants the same thing. [TS]

  That's what they're going for here to go in for developer tools and I think it's a good move for that [TS]

  and you know the bear thing is basically it's almost worthless now where the beta thing is nice for talking [TS]

  and the reason why. [TS]

  I'm bout to sign up with them again probably has the apple test flight data occasionally requires app review [TS]

  and that makes it pretty inflexible. [TS]

  And there's a limit of only two betas per day and everything else like there's all these little limits [TS]

  and delays in place because of Apple [TS]

  and I've had to build a lower caste sitting there for six days with nothing I can't in review it isn't even waiting for [TS]

  view it's been reviewed for six days a beta so I can't cancel it. [TS]

  I can put a new version like my testing process has just stopped like it has completely stalled for six days because [TS]

  something is wrong with Apple and I'm sure it's hammered into the holiday down in a few days [TS]

  and I can't ship a new version I even I can't even ship burdens to testers right now that's really crummy [TS]

  and this is not. [TS]

  Not confirmation of but it's like the worst nightmare of the tables I was going to write this line [TS]

  and they're going to ruin it. [TS]

  No I mean but so you know the Apple version of the of beta testing is way better than what their parties can do [TS]

  when it works. [TS]

  Yeah [TS]

  but what their parties can do is is not useless it's not worthless it's just not nearly as good in the core function [TS]

  but there is still value if you're shipping an app on i O. [TS]

  Us an Android [TS]

  and Windows Phone like you know what we hear Microsoft is getting into the cross-platform developer tools game like [TS]

  somewhere I ratter know if it was a rumor or if it was actual news. [TS]

  Somewhere there was a thing that said that early next year Microsoft was going to be or not I don't know when [TS]

  but sometime soon I guess I'm going to be releasing a new visual studio type stuff that will be able to cross compile [TS]

  the same app onto all three platforms [TS]

  and that would be really cool a lot of elderly use that I mean there are very there are tools that do cross-platform [TS]

  stuff now but from what I gather none of them are particularly good. [TS]

  So if that's the business Mike if I was going into it it's a very smart business [TS]

  and hockey plays right into that because with hockey then you can have testers. [TS]

  It's on all three platforms you can have you know you can have like you know ten people on I.O.'s twenty people on [TS]

  Android and you can get the one guy who uses Windows Phone probably and you probably also the OP [TS]

  or user if you're developing them together with this Microsoft stack it makes sense to be able to test them together [TS]

  and be able to collect crashes from them together [TS]

  and all the stuff like so it from that point of view it makes a lot of sense why they would want one also consider that [TS]

  they are you know open sourcing dot net in really embracing mano and Sam are in even more than they ever have before. [TS]

  So it's certainly this all seems to indicate to me just like you said Marco that they're kind of going all in on being [TS]

  the developer platform for all people for all platforms you know what I mean is that do we know that's true. [TS]

  Are we kind of being big time in the developer platform for all people if what you want to make is a kind of mediocre [TS]

  app for all platform play not mediocre like kind of middle of the road because they have the vendor functionality that [TS]

  is platform agnostic [TS]

  and so that means I mean the server side things that make sense because it's always platform agnostic at least you want [TS]

  to be to the benefit of AS Hers there is their best bet because it's like I don't want my back end to be tied to one [TS]

  plan from the whole point of I want to be thousands on the web not Ball blob. [TS]

  Almost everything else that's like I don't know why not write once run anywhere ever kind of you really have to buy [TS]

  into the native structures of the individual platforms to make a really great app on the individual platforms. [TS]

  The only exceptions are back and services and things like games that are like I don't care about your platform. [TS]

  I control the whole screen I'm a game and so that's where things like you know the middleware for for games [TS]

  and stuff [TS]

  and everything else like I wonder how much of a it does their strategy says exceeds like now we are the biggest [TS]

  and best middleware vendor for mobile applications is that a big win. [TS]

  Mike I still feel like that that entire business is kind of. [TS]

  In the middle of I was going to say in the middle of a bunch of hungry tigers of over going to animal analogies you [TS]

  gobble all the actual platform like it just seems like Microsoft [TS]

  or are we better off if they were in Samsung's Titian [TS]

  and Windows Phone was you know a big dominant platform then they can make Windows Phone [TS]

  and Windows Phone That's really awesome Instead of worrying about creating technologies to help people make their [TS]

  mobile apps on other people's platforms better. [TS]

  Yeah [TS]

  but if you look at you know the position Microsoft is in like in reality which I think you know the problem with with [TS]

  them in the later part of the bomber years is that they weren't fully looking at their reality [TS]

  or they were creating an even worse real reality for themselves. [TS]

  But if you look at this and they're actually in today I think is a very smart move. [TS]

  You know they've already shown that they are they they have built no market share whatsoever. [TS]

  Realistically in the new world of mobile at all and even there their P.C. [TS]

  Business is it's not going to go away but I think the growth is certainly gone. [TS]

  And so there's a problem there [TS]

  and you know the whole move to Azure as a as a company focus have it have been the guy who ran Azure become the new [TS]

  C.E.O. [TS]

  This is a sign like Microsoft is recognizing not only like a good business to be in [TS]

  but probably the best business that they can be it because their attempts at being otherwise have not worked. [TS]

  And there are certainly in some ways it's too late. [TS]

  Like no matter what they do in this phone it is not going to be super significant Windows Phone has missed its window [TS]

  and say it's never too late not for Windows Phone specifically but first of all [TS]

  when this one is not bad it's always telling us what is not bad like the hardware and software is not bad like. [TS]

  But you know even if you agree that it's better there in like a Mac like situation where Apple is making a better [TS]

  personal computers with better software for years but nobody cared because it wasn't better enough [TS]

  or because it was too expensive or whatever you want to make right. [TS]

  But [TS]

  but you can't really you can't say like well there's no hope because there was hope like all it all all well I guess I [TS]

  need to do is make a transition feel full and they're all set right [TS]

  and you know there's always hope to turn things around that you know it seemed like the mac couldn't get anywhere [TS]

  and was never going to succeed but it said quote unquote succeeded by having I'm actin things around [TS]

  and be hang in there long enough for everyone else to get destroyed [TS]

  and they're left with like the only remaining paying customers for you know who pay a lot of money for their computers [TS]

  right. But then they also do the i Pod and the i Phone right. [TS]

  And those are not the mac but they're similar in that they're own proprietary platforms that Apple made you know [TS]

  and sort of say like Microsoft still has the skill set to make very competitive hardware [TS]

  and software products like you know like like the P.C. [TS]

  Was in the you know like all the things that makes it so have the Windows Phone their timing was terrible. [TS]

  And two big betters got there before them and now they're kind of stuck and kind of unfair. [TS]

  You know they are it Windows Phone is not succeeding in proportion to its quality as a city in proportion to its timing [TS]

  more or less [TS]

  but I wouldn't give up on that entirely because it's kind of like Steve Jobs going on saying well we lost the P.C. [TS]

  Wars. [TS]

  So what we really need to do is construct an some business that is not like this we can make a hardware software [TS]

  integrated product like we were trying to with a MAC we do something entirely different will become like [TS]

  and a services company or whatever [TS]

  and if we're with Microsoft because members have so many different skills they're good services they're good hardware [TS]

  they're good it's off during a game console they're good at so many different things it's hard to know what to focus on. [TS]

  But when Steve Jobs came back that we said no we can make the Mac like people take notice of that again. [TS]

  With him I can be we can figure something new that is very much like the mac a hardware [TS]

  and software product integrated and takes advantage of all the things that quote unquote Only Apple can do [TS]

  and all that stuff and then the i Phone i Pad [TS]

  and so on so we're like Steve Jobs took a company that was failing to get traction with one product [TS]

  and made it get traction with products that are. [TS]

  Exactly the same like the same strategy just just better executed and better timing [TS]

  and it matches up says well I guess we can't be that company that we were now we have to be a services company. [TS]

  There's some reputation management you know resurrecting the reputation is people thinking Microsoft is cool [TS]

  and developers liking it and sort of the the alpha geeks as we used to say [TS]

  when I was ten was becoming popular the alpha geeks fighting attention of Microsoft again. [TS]

  That's good and if that's a good business for them fine [TS]

  but I would not like to see much of give up on doing something else like Windows Phone [TS]

  and having that succeed because they don't wait you know five years before they go off their butts [TS]

  and do something good so I don't know. [TS]

  It kind of scares me that this does become the azure company or the company that I was a plus I guess exchange [TS]

  and civil servants are like that that will be a sad end for the company [TS]

  and rad to see them do more things like Windows but better. [TS]

  Well I don't think they're going to lose control of their their software platforms. [TS]

  I just think they're going to become less and less relevant over time [TS]

  and they're always like there was going to be there in the same way like you know I.B.M. [TS]

  I think still has a mainframe business but like it's and I don't think it's going to be that bad. I.B.M. [TS]

  The worst example they're selling everything there so they can sell their X. [TS]

  A successful business and they're doing that now they got rid of their P.C. [TS]

  The servers the mainframes are like all that's left [TS]

  and yet no I don't I B M is exactly what I don't want prints of to become private [TS]

  and say like like there are there are healthy businesses in the computer world like printers you know like printers are [TS]

  always going to exist but they're just going to get increasingly less [TS]

  and less important over time they're already pretty much completely forgot a bull unmentionable. [TS]

  This is probably the first time you've heard about a printer today [TS]

  and that's you know no big deal doesn't matter you know if that's where Windows and Office and Windows Phone go. [TS]

  That's fine and that's that's not a huge deal like. [TS]

  There they can be used every day by millions of people and be completely unmemorable and unimportant to the business. [TS]

  Microsoft should sell Office and Windows to Samsung to destroy the company destroy Samsung virus of the B. [TS]

  Like this is awesome. [TS]

  You know we're going to have we're going to Omega's all the Windows and Office those things are great [TS]

  and like trying to maintain [TS]

  and work on that code base for products that people don't really like anymore like that will just it will distract [TS]

  and crush Samsung and Microsoft can beat them to market with whatever the next big thing is and whether it I.B.M. [TS]

  I think what they sold their P.C. [TS]

  Business [TS]

  and I'm pretty sure they sell their I say six service is a long time ago I think now they're serving their power server [TS]

  business the power seven power processors [TS]

  and maybe they're also selling the mainframe thing may be the one in the same anyway. [TS]

  Microsoft is the market of the car world that is selling everything now I mean I don't I think brains at I.B.M. [TS]

  Remember that don't you have no idea how much fall off I'm going to get from my father over all this if I hear where [TS]

  they're actually selling whether you're selling everything everything must go. But what else cool. [TS]

  We're finally sponsored this week by automatic. That's with one T. [TS]

  In a normal way of spelling it not the Wordpress way swelling it automatic dot com slash A.T.P. [TS]

  This is your smart driving assistant on your smartphone. [TS]

  Automatic it was a little dongle that you plug into your now what do we say it was a little Old Dirty Bastard on board [TS]

  diagnostic OK the O.B.D. Port on your car. [TS]

  The automatics little device plugs into that and then it uses Bluetooth to talk to your phone [TS]

  and you can do all sorts of useful things as you would expect from your phone take into your car. [TS]

  So anyway they can monitor how you drive. [TS]

  You can monitor your fuel economy you can mount or like you know are you celebrating too hard to be less efficient. [TS]

  You can also read any check engine light code like anything that would cause your car to throw an error code. [TS]

  Cars don't throw exceptions they just have little Erica adds and you have to read them. Special devices. [TS]

  Well automatic can read them. [TS]

  It's great so you can actually read the code that your car is telling you [TS]

  and you can decide like is a something to get checked right away is on the I can do myself things like that you can [TS]

  also it can detect if your car has crash answers which I think all modern cars do with airbags [TS]

  and everything you can do it can detect your car has been in a crash and it can automatically signal for help. [TS]

  That's really really cool that that could be you know potentially very very important to you so you know cars in a [TS]

  crash. It senses it. It communicated your phone and actually calls for help. [TS]

  So as you're driving automatic intelligently monitors your driving patterns [TS]

  and so it looks as if you look at things like how you're celebrating how you're breaking that they can look at all [TS]

  these things and it can tell you tips to optimize your fuel economy. [TS]

  So it gives you all the data you need you can track your fuel cost you can track your efficiency every week you know if [TS]

  you're like one of those what they call hyper milers the Prius people you know so you know if you're if you're the kind [TS]

  of person who likes to quantify things you know you want to like quantify your life and achieve goals [TS]

  and look at metrics and optimize metrics. [TS]

  This is made for you because you can track all your cost track all your efficiency [TS]

  and then it'll give you little tips of small change you can make to your habits. [TS]

  If you want to save money in the long run [TS]

  and then you know fuel over time that can save a lot of money you can even set it up if you want to make subtle audio [TS]

  cues while you drive an efficiently as kind of like a little like error like like a little little rough there. [TS]

  Like I found in my car I have I have one of those lane change warning things where vibrates the steering wheel if you [TS]

  start getting close to a lane line without signalling [TS]

  and it has actually made me a better driver because I used to signal like as I was crossing the line [TS]

  and I didn't even realize I was doing that. [TS]

  Now I signal before I start crossing the line just like from this little subtle thing that just remind me hey that's [TS]

  that's not quite right and it actually did improve my driving so automatically the same thing with all. [TS]

  Do you accuse if you're driving very inefficiently you're not going to meet your fuel goals. [TS]

  So anyway even to save hundreds of dollars on gas you can divert your check engine light other Erica [TS]

  and you can get help on a serious crash. There's even a parking locator that I'm out there members where you park. [TS]

  I Phone and Android devices are supported. [TS]

  The best thing is there's no subscription fees there's no monthly cost as all you do is you pay for the automatic [TS]

  device up front. Normally it's eighty bucks. It used to be a hundred now at eighty this is a great deal. [TS]

  Norm with eighty bucks and there's no monthly fee by the device up front and that's it even comes with free shipping [TS]

  and is a forty five day return policy so you can try this out for a long time [TS]

  and see if you you know if you if you like it and if it saves you money and I bet you'll find that it will. [TS]

  Now a book that's actually wrong too because listeners of this pod cast you get it for an even better price for you. [TS]

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  That's a one time fee no recurring subscriptions just sixty bucks once. Hurry up it's a limited time sale. [TS]

  Automatic dot com slash A.T.P. Thanks a lot. [TS]

  All right so our friend in the chat suggested this topic it's a chromium they haven't they heard of hosel sometime [TS]

  called marking T.P. As non-secure So they're proposing that browser vendors change their U.I. Paradigm. [TS]

  So instead of saying instead of like showing a lock or some indicator when a site is served over S.S.L. [TS]

  To show that it is secure to actually mark non as a cell site as insecure in the browser to make it to kind of like [TS]

  yell at people into recognizing like hey what you're doing here is insecure to say I like the absence of of an icon [TS]

  doesn't communicate much to people whereas like an active all. [TS]

  Saying this isn't secure might be more helpful to their saying they intend to transition Chrome to this sometime in [TS]

  twenty fifteen and maybe other browser wonderful follow [TS]

  and then there's a whole bunch of going on in browsers these days with with S.S.L. and Trying to make it a bigger deal. [TS]

  Chrome seems to be leading the way on that. The other browser vendors tend to follow pretty quickly. [TS]

  What do you think about this do you think I have my own opinions on this how much do you think this would help [TS]

  and does it matter. [TS]

  First of all for dating this if you look at the screenshots that's not the current version of Safari so I hate web [TS]

  pages that dates on them. [TS]

  But anyway is the potential for this to be old because that is not Safari eight in a screenshot it says they intend to [TS]

  be in for a turn just unplanned for crewmen twenty fifteen so it has to be some time recently. [TS]

  I know [TS]

  but who knows this could this could have been written at the beginning of twenty four in any way for this particular [TS]

  idea. [TS]

  My question is always say you communicate this to people you know you change change the wording you know it's it's a [TS]

  tax not a state tax right. This is now insecure instead of the other one being secure right now. [TS]

  What do people do about that. [TS]

  What action is there readily available action that people can take to make them not just ignore this like all the other [TS]

  crazy technical things that their computer yelled at them that they don't understand like a big giant red button that [TS]

  says which is secure if if we can make that big Jaron button Why doesn't the browsers try it all the time anyway why [TS]

  don't we just make it try by default all the time [TS]

  and fall back to the like that's what you need not so much like communicating to the user information that they don't [TS]

  understand what they can do with but rather simply just doing the right thing making the browser do H.T.T.P. [TS]

  By default all the time now I know that's not quite easy and you can just try to B.S. [TS]

  First and then you know there are there are technical hurdles. [TS]

  Do you know you break different websites if you try this all the time like maybe it has to be something that people [TS]

  click or whatever but that's my big question about this. [TS]

  If you communicate information what do I do with this information. What what action do I take. [TS]

  Katie what do you think I understand the idea [TS]

  but it just seems weird to kind of flipped everything on its head like that. [TS]

  But I'm also probably reading too much into it in so far as A does anyone even does any regular human really pay [TS]

  attention whether or not a Web site you're looking at a skier I know people look they used to back [TS]

  when time web browsers were more stable there were fewer of them and it was just Netscape [TS]

  and explore which people usually used one of them they knew to look for the little lock icon [TS]

  or whatever like in their browser Chrome and they'd be like is this secure before like so I look for the lock [TS]

  and that certain people are kind of trained to look for the little lock [TS]

  but then a little walk start moving all the prices and black dresses got a weird [TS]

  and sometimes a lock had a line through it it was like a certificate error [TS]

  and it just it started to sort of become just more noise that your computer throws at you sometimes a bit of a dialog [TS]

  box and is allow or disallow and you ask you know you talk about computers [TS]

  and there will be there really are there people who just always say allow us to be politicized he said disallow [TS]

  and you may be thinking of the people who I say allow our you know stupid and naive and doing insecure things [TS]

  but if you've ever had to try to help a person who is one of the disallowed people or deny people [TS]

  or whatever that I was always a little I was always they deny [TS]

  and then they wonder why nothing works on the web because they refuse to enable Javascript or something. [TS]

  It's either approach is great [TS]

  and the problem is that people regular user shouldn't have to understand all this typing on the job [TS]

  or just to get the thing they wanted want done done so that's what I'm thinking. [TS]

  Exposing more of this technical mumbo jumbo to regular people is not really helping matters [TS]

  or I would be more in favor of is I mean there are kinder wasn't doing a thing where like they're giving us is so stiff [TS]

  it is for free just encourage more sites to have them. [TS]

  Make more site doesn't sell by default makes the web people run the Web site to redirect H.T.T.P. [TS]

  Data D.B.'s all the time immediately on the first head and just like people don't have to know about that right. [TS]

  If they don't care if they don't over the lock icon is anymore if you just this is a discussion that should take place [TS]

  amongst the people who are making web sites or less so amongst the people who are using web browsers. [TS]

  Maybe also a bunch of people who are making web browsers [TS]

  but their their customers are the individual users not the Web site so I feel like this should be you know more [TS]

  speaking in words as a as a as an industry and as our words to the users. [TS]

  Yeah I mean I think the main problems with this. [TS]

  Number one I would even question Drummond you said that at the beginning [TS]

  when we only had very few people knew to look for the lock up. [TS]

  I bet nobody even did then I bet the percentage of Internet users who look at the lock icon is about the same as it's [TS]

  always been which is probably embarrassingly low I think the problem is like this. [TS]

  This is trying to address the same thing as like forming a consortium to figure out how can we make people better read [TS]

  text in error dialogs like you like it. [TS]

  You probably can't like they like if you're like if they were in the button text. [TS]

  Yeah it's very little you can do maybe they just didn't recognize the shape of OK and had it before even reading it. [TS]

  Yeah like you know in their in their head they're saying how do I cancel out of this [TS]

  and just get rid of this I don't know what to do as I like it's it's a very hard problem that is mostly unsolvable. [TS]

  Same thing here is like how do you make people pay attention to the level of connection encryption that they have in [TS]

  their I mean we can even make you pay attention to the hosts they're connected to. [TS]

  Like that's it's own problems like so the other problem with this scheme is that all it does if it's hard to say you [TS]

  are secure or you are insecure because what does that mean if you are reading a blog or the New York Times [TS]

  or something and it's. [TS]

  Insecure What does that mean does that mean the blog is going to hack you like that's confusing to people at best if [TS]

  they even look and it's misleading certainly. [TS]

  Similarly if you say you are secure you are secure like somebody which a secure connection to totally dot Bank of [TS]

  America are you is not a good thing it's like you can you can have an S.S.L. [TS]

  Certificate to a totally different domain that is still a fishing domain and you can still be insecure. [TS]

  Yes you can look into the easy stuff [TS]

  and get like the name of your company Bank of America Incorporated to show in a green button in the bar [TS]

  but it's like those can probably also be easily faked. [TS]

  You know with enough effort and also no one looks for those either. [TS]

  Like all the people who don't look for a lot hike [TS]

  and they don't look for easy certificates either earlier if you're looking for like it appears so differently [TS]

  or sometimes not at all in different browsers. [TS]

  I meant people who used to look at a lock icon [TS]

  but once it became more complicated than that once it became more complicated than a binary thing that was generally [TS]

  represented the same way everywhere. [TS]

  Then people can't be bothered and speaking of the security thing another thing is positive and a chat room you know. [TS]

  But because I'm scrolled up to look at something else [TS]

  but I think Eric Schmidt had something where he was telling people using How do you know her voice the voice of the [TS]

  N.S.A. [TS]

  Like that's what gives back to Margo saying what does secure mean [TS]

  and what does insecure mean they don't mean what those what those words read as to a technically [TS]

  and savvy user because it's like either I'm safe [TS]

  or not safe that's what they're looking for is basically all they can handle [TS]

  and even that only conscientious people can handle and I say for my not safe [TS]

  and Ike The real answer is so much more complicated than a binary you're safe [TS]

  and you're not safe that you can't like even if you can successfully communicate that simple aeration it's misleading [TS]

  and if you could say actually it's just a given to Katie the more nuanced information which you can't [TS]

  but if you could people would still be left with. OK Now I understand the exact parameters of the situation I'm in. [TS]

  What do I do about it. Do I know I don't know web browser anymore and then you just said that. [TS]

  She was sure and either allow everything [TS]

  or deny everything dismiss everything with can for them is this everything was OK [TS]

  and I think there are more this mess ever allow allow I think there are more a Lauer's than desires because then I was [TS]

  really just can't get anything done and they were very frustrating people [TS]

  but they're like No I just I need I need a long explanation of why I'm supposed to not you know I'm just like what you [TS]

  just keep reading the novel you're never going to have the phony software you never reveal the washing your videos on [TS]

  the web all your websites will be broken but I feel safer this way [TS]

  and right people people learn very quickly that if you hit OK to everything you get overall fewer boxes right. [TS]

  That's been the strategy it's like the N.F.L. Question like it doesn't it doesn't assure you that the site is secure. [TS]

  All insurers use it you have an encrypted connection to the site [TS]

  and even that's kind of a questionable with a little T.V. [TS]

  That is and the ink you know has nothing to do with anything but even S.S.L. [TS]

  We can say at this point does not protect you from you know with Heartbleed narrative it doesn't protect you really [TS]

  anyway. [TS]

  Well [TS]

  and even then it's like there's a map there's a whole class of security issues that a cell doesn't protect you from things [TS]

  like password leaks [TS]

  and hacks like it like if you if you see the secure icon does that mean you can type in the one password you use for [TS]

  everything good in your bank and use that on this Web site to secure site and won't lose your password. [TS]

  No of course not but you know so again what does that mean so that I think this is this is you know the move to do. [TS]

  H.T.T.P. S. [TS]

  Everywhere that that a lot of people are are moving towards I think in many ways that that's a good move [TS]

  and that is part of the way we're going [TS]

  but this conversion as all reminds me of I mean it's amazing that it's taken as long as it's taken so long because the [TS]

  sort of artificial barrier to this happening earlier was that US soldiers are because cost money [TS]

  and it's not a lot of money [TS]

  but it's thought that they cost money in there knowing where I am are able to sell them are generally annoying [TS]

  and so yes after ion to reduce that barrier is better [TS]

  but it's like going to remind me of is the transition from the old days of telnet F.T.P. [TS]

  To basically as a sage and as a tryst. [TS]

  An open source and that's why it spread everywhere and nobody's telnetting to their machines anymore [TS]

  and nobody's using F.T.P. [TS]

  With plaintext passwords anymore because I would be crazy [TS]

  and yet we still continue to you know use essentially the web equivalent to you know total an encrypted telnet F.T.P. [TS]

  Like I'm going to protocols are crazy right. [TS]

  But we used to be all the time and yeah we hope that we're typing in a password I mean I know I don't even check. [TS]

  Do I look up to see is H.T.T.P. I think assumed OK great you have some sort of prompt and I have to be a G.P.S. [TS]

  You know but but you don't so really everyone fish John. Then we should be H.T.T.P. [TS]

  As everywhere [TS]

  and stead of just like whereas SH everywhere because nobody uses telnet anymore although I'm glad a stone thought of a [TS]

  story this is about web servers. The big problem with with adoption of S.S.L. [TS]

  Everywhere to be as it were rather is that the certificates expire [TS]

  and I think it used to be you get a five year one I think they killed that last year right now going through year to [TS]

  year one some like that as if he's never expire so you can have the same as a key for you know ten years [TS]

  and it will continue to work [TS]

  but a web site is more heavyweight than a server the server that you're remotely connected to visit I just feel like [TS]

  the main barrier was that it cost money and you had to deal with these weird vendors and if they can make it easier [TS]

  and make it simpler to update these things [TS]

  and you know like I just asked that because if you're running a Web site like that's a big thing that's worth investing [TS]

  in of like you know a couple minutes every three years. [TS]

  Sure the problem is that it is a very highly technical process that is very error prone very intimidating [TS]

  and very complicated that you have to do every two or three years [TS]

  and that's like on a grand scheme of things like in the grand scheme of the Internet. [TS]

  No we're going to do that like the big sites will do it but everything else out there it's not going to do it. [TS]

  But people people and what's left is not a big site. [TS]

  People don't run their own websites so much anymore [TS]

  and if they do they're probably technicians anyway we just need the big sites to do it and like Facebook you know. [TS]

  You know. [TS]

  Wordpress has to have like idiot proof support for built in we just click a button [TS]

  and they can accept a thing you know like it's it's possible to get this to happen I think the money making making it [TS]

  free if it actually works out like if you had like the as a certificate of a bit of hover I don't hover I think they do [TS]

  a vault There you go. [TS]

  But like [TS]

  but they can't do the things they don't can't do a thing where you set up your own Word Press letting just press a [TS]

  button and then it says I'm going to buy and install an assault is difficult for you because you want me to do this [TS]

  and you know in order renews like every couple of years ago he enters [TS]

  and Janina by the way we're going to tell us a list of we're going to gobble weeks you want to do that yeah go ahead. [TS]

  That's not how it works now you know we have to look at different protocols and. [TS]

  And good the right ones [TS]

  and you create your key was so great a command line program that asked you a million questions you don't know the [TS]

  answer to that is a vocabulary affably whether you if you are familiar with you forget which thing you're supposed to [TS]

  write their your name or your company name or whatever [TS]

  and the instructions are so like these last three things you must skip them don't enter anything in like these these [TS]

  three bills. [TS]

  But anyway I still think all that stuff [TS]

  but people people who have to deal with that are better equipped to deal with it then uses art to deal with more [TS]

  interface elements telling them something that they don't understand about the pages they're using I mean my mother [TS]

  still emails me things and says I got an e-mail and it wants me to go to the site is this site safe [TS]

  and just mind of all that I now know I'm the denial I should know. Deny Deny just do not do anything. [TS]

  That email didn't come you think you came from. [TS]

  Yeah and the like even Yeah I remember early on it is the engine I demonstrated how you can send e-mail from anybody [TS]

  but you know telnetting to port twenty five back when I was back [TS]

  when I was on the cover of like you know President of United States that I'm looking at an e-mail from President you [TS]

  know something I did that and that didn't take and so still to this day she's like but the e-mail came from you. [TS]

  Mike did not come from me. Right now it looks like again. [TS]

  Didn't did it so even that concept like it's just the mental model of how people think the Internet works is so [TS]

  different from ours actually works that it's very difficult to you know you can't get the models [TS]

  and think because the way the internet really works is too complicated for people to know or care about [TS]

  and so you really just have to not give them choices and sort of be safe by default [TS]

  and make it so that you don't have to do anything through no action of your own. [TS]

  You are slightly more protected now than you were before. All right thanks a lot to earth responses this week. [TS]

  Automatic Lynda dot com and dash and we will see you next week. [TS]

  Now this show is over and it was accidental accidental easy. [TS]

  And she is now sitting down and this sister that lives and the right one address S.K. [TS]

  College is concerned that at the clock and then your bar with an integrated into the U.S. [TS]

  Quickly that didn't come until some some point five [TS]

  and I'm going to say yeah I was quick going four years between the time was introduced in time to get scooped up that's [TS]

  in the thirty year history of the man. [TS]

  That's relatively quick compared to well I don't know like theming which almost made it in [TS]

  but then no not at the last minute [TS]

  and we're still waiting for to go anyway if the history of the mac from one hundred ninety four until today is that [TS]

  o'clock in the menu bar it's pretty long time [TS]

  and for a couple years before that with a third party utility was Windowshade third party you guys don't know you some [TS]

  of the chair and I remember when there she didn't remember getting a crappy knock off from my P.C. [TS]

  Because I thought it was awesome that is awesome it was awesome [TS]

  and it is what if you had to go back to being third party after being integrated because they took it out [TS]

  and I stand [TS]

  and they say in practice you could have a cup is like sticks around your screen like these windows really were awesome [TS]

  Windowshade was arson. [TS]

  Yes Marco that is basically how it works this is why when the show was off of the screen full of stuff. [TS]

  If you're a person like me who arranges your windows on the screen like doesn't act them eyes everything doesn't pile [TS]

  everything [TS]

  but actually arranges them like you to arrange items on a desk in front of you so you know where everything is No I do [TS]

  that I well I was very mad whenever I would move my Miley in window or something. [TS]

  All right well that's a payment of everything all your terminal windows all your editor [TS]

  when you don't like being able to centrally minimize them without having to move. [TS]

  So when you want them back you go to where they were [TS]

  but they don't they don't take a visual space on your screen anymore you just have the little little stick thing like [TS]

  displacement immigration into the dock or you know hidden also has its place [TS]

  but being able to sort of maintain the spatial state of your windows while having them minimize themselves having them [TS]

  hide have them curled up [TS]

  and get out of your way until you want them lets you quickly find them again without going through a menu without [TS]

  hovering over a bunch of little identical looking icons [TS]

  and you know exactly where it is because you can visualize where was it now you have the top part of it. [TS]

  So I miss window shade it wasn't the ultimate thing for minimalization. [TS]

  All the other all the other tools we currently have now are also good but they took away that one. [TS]

  It's kind of a shame and it's probably just as well because nobody arranges their windows. [TS]

  Mark just orbiting full screen [TS]

  or just have no idea where the windows are I can't I can't imagine having with all these sticks all over the place [TS]

  because it seems like they don't minimize all of them is on the other the millions fix you just minimize the ones [TS]

  you're not using right now why is that so much better than hiding because hiding gets all the way God like honey how do [TS]

  you get it back then you hit the icon the doctor use the all tab thing. Well I gonna die. [TS]

  Seven icons they're all badge in the same application [TS]

  and I really don't know which one is the one you want to go to how you go to do the mystery meat hover [TS]

  and find out which one it is. I never minimize that I only hide but what if you hide it. [TS]

  How do you get a background you have to go back to the application go to go to some menu [TS]

  or you go go to the doc I kind of pull it up by its name and hope you remember the name [TS]

  and hope replications good about giving titles to the windows that make sense [TS]

  and that you know especially with the windows tabs [TS]

  and it doesn't convey the tab dialog special memory is a lot better for me anyway I think for most special memory where [TS]

  things are on the dock. [TS]

  Seriously like the things I wrote in the same place in the UK so I know what the application icon or the Yeah Yeah [TS]

  but you have to the application icon doesn't magically make the window appear you have to look at the list of windows [TS]

  that are minimized under it. [TS]

  How many windows you keep We want to help a lot I went because of their disconnect here like I generally don't like. [TS]

  In each app I usually keep between one and two windows and I use tabs very heavily and in terminal in the browsers [TS]

  but I don't keep a whole lot of windows open. I have eleven windows in colloquy right now to give a wonderful. [TS]

  Oh my God how in the M.B. Be added in V.B. [TS]

  Editor I frequently have I don't know I think I've pushed up from two hundred before maybe twenty [TS]

  or thirty most of the time I don't even know colloquy had multiple meanings either terminal terminal you have one two [TS]

  three four five six seven eight eight or nine million homes wrong what you do is one of the staff [TS]

  and if you do not believe it. [TS]

  Yeah I was going to get up [TS]

  or even tabs only know there was a terminal one of the heads up terminals as obviously my browser windows have had some [TS]

  neighbors I don't have a lot of browser windows open right now I have. I love it every week. [TS]

  We're finding out like some crazy computer habit from John that we that nobody would've expected one nine hundred forty [TS]

  one is open right now. Oh my window. Thank you for your windows not even tens of tens in those windows. [TS]

  Well when there was a lot. [TS]

  If only there was a way for you to like save things to a reading list [TS]

  or something to remember you know what this is for I have a bigger screen a bigger screen this is like giving a hoarder [TS]

  a bigger house like you don't that's not going to fix your own no no I'm not hoarding things not collecting windows the [TS]

  channeling what I'm doing in them. [TS]

  It's that kind of sounds like you just you cannot have nine hundred windows with multiple transfer window that you're [TS]

  using scare quotes doing things [TS]

  and I definitely can sometimes it's sort of like sedimentary layers like for example the work my work [TS]

  when I was I was doing work earlier today are you know separate from my other windows I don't use spaces either. [TS]

  How could you manage all that without speed. [TS]

  My nineteen cartoonist by the way are precisely arranged in the same place they've been for years the same windows the [TS]

  one window per channel one window per channel and they are precisely arranged. [TS]

  And you hang out in one nine hundred channels. [TS]

  So Mike how do you go to get anything done during the day I don't know in the middle idling that you know hard work you [TS]

  don't have to be there paying attention. [TS]

  Yeah they're all in like a little tab in the side you know now the windows are open. [TS]

  How would having little you a little minimized window sticks everywhere how would that help you prefer for colloquy [TS]

  when I'm doing a podcast. [TS]

  I don't want to look at any of the windows except for the one I'm doing so I have to minimize all them to the doctor [TS]

  for the one that I'm doing if I could. [TS]

  Option Windowshade them they would all shade up and down the line I want I would have to do that. [TS]

  Oh my God I know you have to like to make them all to minimize all right. [TS]

  Probably [TS]

  when use of recalls they probably have read it in Windows more if user Finder windows there I'm stuck on I cannot mean [TS]

  I cannot cognitively handle more than a couple of Safari went. [TS]

  There's your Window users ear you see is the maximizing it really can only handle one window at a time I now know I can [TS]

  only I can only handle like a sum total of maybe ten tabs across like to [TS]

  when you should see my work computer it has so many windows on it like there is unbelievable I went to my home [TS]

  and sometimes I have to go there and clean up things like I know what's in a lot of these windows [TS]

  and sometimes that you know sometimes these things are from Instapaper [TS]

  but a lot of times there are things that I can't view that I look into their i Pad [TS]

  and some video on players like Flash because the thing is choking and I have today on my app [TS]

  or i Pad three hundred in a blog post and I have like a text and I could google add next to it. [TS]

  Double tap the text just have the text of the screen [TS]

  and it was some crazy javascript on this page it was like no I will always have to show you the ads of the largest you [TS]

  can make this page is where it shows that my little pretty blue margin and the my white margin and then a text [TS]

  and then another white margin on the ad then a blue margin [TS]

  and you can still do more did was make a tech smaller so if that the addon [TS]

  and scrolling the page was super slow so it's like I was going to read that [TS]

  and I need to point to get your processor to read this program blog post apparently because I'm not going to scrolls on [TS]

  i Pad and watch it like stutter and actually make it seem like I quickly add what I'm trying to scroll. [TS]

  Very frustrating. [TS]

  Anyway there are reasons that I might have been in a browser window instead of looking for means to paper map. [TS]

  Wow I just I don't even know what to say right now like one team Safari windows is did I hear that right ninety now. [TS]

  How do you tell which one. [TS]

  Oh no that is the one number seventeen is the one I will have them I have them arranged it seems that there be a lot of [TS]

  churning going on here because you can't yes you can fit ninety minutes on screen you said you said you know your [TS]

  virtual desktop Co's hold or they overlap the co-pilot You know so [TS]

  and you have only one physical monitor connected to your machine is there in one monitor [TS]

  and it's what is it a twenty four inch class or thirty inch or were once twenty by twelve on rice an hour [TS]

  and well this is me. He me her I want to cry just thinking of you trying to manage all this. [TS]

  It's not magic like this is just how I work [TS]

  or who like things some of the messy Dechen say how can you do anything done with all those markers [TS]

  and pencils everywhere [TS]

  and it's just paper in a race is I don't understand how you get anything done it's like No Country nothing history I [TS]

  don't know where the things are all these paint and cups and buckets and how do you get nothing [TS]

  but you have a stick in an evil [TS]

  and I don't understand you getting done how do you know where everything is I have three hundred sixty seven sticks on [TS]

  my desktop and exactly which one is the window [TS]

  and he was like a someone who was like a mechanic who got an entire tool chest next them [TS]

  and everything is in a drawer and every drug has a little cubby and everything is there it's all within arm's reach [TS]

  when he's working on a car I think that that's how the mechanic sees it in his head [TS]

  and in real life it's a giant pile of unsorted those annoying so I know I read it [TS]

  and I can find days I go into a lot of the puter as things never get dirty [TS]

  and you know for for window arranging should be. [TS]

  I still want this utility [TS]

  and I don't think anyone's going to make this is something that Apple should make is I want something lets me arrange [TS]

  windows with constraints. First of all I'm pretty sure that many of those exist. [TS]

  Second of all this is your app John this is this is your great idea this is the type of vote ever make that we know [TS]

  this is doomed from the start because we have never ever they would have to use private A.B.I. [TS]

  Eyes and it can never go on the mag asked or [TS]

  and everyone user of it may be like you're only talking about Everest every time mention if people send me the million [TS]

  apps of imaging a charmer [TS]

  and here comes my room with another one of these apps are made by people who like it like the iron window manager they [TS]

  like for tiling or like even Windows as it were like I can make it half my screen [TS]

  or a third of my screen is like no I'm not subdividing my screen you want to lay out for Windows you want you want to [TS]

  be like All right this window is always this window has the same center X. [TS]

  Coordinate as this window from this app but is always thirty pixels to the right of the window edge not back [TS]

  but us to complicate like there are there is an app that does that there's an app where you can like type in those type [TS]

  of things and have like bind them. [TS]

  The keyboard shortcuts and stuff like that I don't think a lot of stuff [TS]

  but it does basically spring the stress type thing like you can very precisely [TS]

  but I would never wonder that I would need to be doing what I wanted something to use to do a couple of neat allowed to [TS]

  do like individual apps and do it wasn't a system wide thing [TS]

  and you know some apps still do kind of like where you were dragged a pallet [TS]

  and it would kind of snap the palette into the corner of your screen [TS]

  but it wouldn't be touching in the corner would leave a little margin [TS]

  and if you brought one of the other parts of the application up below it this is before everyone's palates for doc [TS]

  about like you know on the job you have today you bring other power below it it wouldn't stick to the bonnier palpably [TS]

  little margin that margin was the same one of this we want is for example my colleague who [TS]

  and I have a range in a particular way and I have them in groups and a group so I'll do the same with [TS]

  and I want them to be vertically aligned with each other [TS]

  and if they're not overlapping I want them to be consistent margin between them above and to the ones to the right [TS]

  but if they are arriving at us wanting to stay within their right [TS]

  and left edges like this we sort of magnetic sticky smart guide kind of things kind of like looking I don't know kind [TS]

  of like what on the gravel does with its layout constraints [TS]

  and a combination of those two things would take some experimentation to get it right and you need modifier keys [TS]

  when you don't want to just snap [TS]

  and stuff like that just a few simple snapping rules Oh totally just a few small rules for making things the same with [TS]

  and lined up with the choice of you know just do it manually and it's it's fine it's not that big of a deal [TS]

  but you know [TS]

  or tiling just regular tiling windows like there are certain timing offset the you don't want to happen I don't make [TS]

  let me tile the window and leave like two pixels visible on the left [TS]

  or right edges because that's not good enough like I want sort of magnetic kind of snap to gritty [TS]

  but not really a grid like where I don't care about the screen grid I only care about what your position is relative to [TS]

  other related windows in the same app or something like that. [TS]

  It's complicated that's why I make this happen I don't think anyone actually want it but people who are meticulous [TS]

  when no Rangers all five of us really like it. You know John maybe if you didn't have one nine hundred forty windows. [TS]

  You wouldn't need to be quite as meticulous with your money now now but for now that's just one application. [TS]

  Terminal I have been terminals internal tabs of like they're a problem because now every window is like a million tabs [TS]

  in it you know you could just not have as many windows and not for you to use them for work like they have a purpose. [TS]

  You could use a mile going to choose not to throw stones on the parole issue [TS]

  but you know what I'm doing with Terminal One of the pearls up and B.B. [TS]

  Out and anyone is whether they're at home now I just have one window open [TS]

  and be out about the work I have many more than one ever on so I flush everything out because of the windows [TS]

  application. [TS]

  Start over again but I do it by checking what I have there [TS]

  and making sure there's nothing left I want to save this app unlike annually. So like P.V. [TS]

  Added when I'm done with a project usually our view all of my windows make sure and I keep getting open [TS]

  and I don't want to and close everything [TS]

  and you know that it's cool like quit is now bound to save all my window positions and fade and then quit. [TS]

  So I never go there it just could be out of i Relaunch [TS]

  and everything is back where I found it that's that's the way I like to be. I just nineteen Safari windows. [TS]

  Oh my God I mean Roland how many chrome windows to open my God if you think about that of course is modeled around as [TS]

  of course as well from Windows I can do that to the nice guy runs very incremental time. Oh my god why. [TS]

  Why on God's green earth do you need more than thirty your web browser windows so why is that necessary how many [TS]

  frickin tabs are in all thirty of the some now I can close thing a mega web browser then why don't you know that more [TS]

  than one I can close the pages with the dates of the super clock dates in it. [TS]

  What's the average number of tabs per window you think it like. [TS]

  So you can still see the titles like usually you know so like eight not one two three. [TS]

  For like five or six like for example when I was looking up I don't look up the dates [TS]

  or a super clock one window dedicated to looking up the date that that super clock was was released. [TS]

  One window looking up the date that says seven point five was released [TS]

  and it was in those windows I have the Google thing [TS]

  and then I have tabs for the google search result that I thought would be likely [TS]

  and then one of the tabs eventually led to the end. [TS]

  That window is done off to the side next window well why is it off to the side it why should not close so I can refer [TS]

  to it when I just discussed this [TS]

  and did the math in my head about what the dates were right at it while the winds are not close the tabs behind it to [TS]

  the new when I would come out of the end of the show I close this entire window. [TS]

  This like little mini research when there's that entire window goes that entire Windows thing. [TS]

  I had emailed that I want to talk about in the after show from Grand Opening the window here I have a B.B. [TS]

  No it's another window. John now you have to be honest with us please. [TS]

  We were doing this because we're your friends do you have any other browsers open right now. [TS]

  Just just do you do you do you keep any of the browsers you know we're trying to give any other browsers in my [TS]

  application folder or like you run them. [TS]

  I don't run any other than what I do I do have a latest version of what he called for Firefox [TS]

  and maybe I have an aversion to hop around there somewhere and when I went to how often do you use Firefox John never. [TS]

  OK you're still you're still saying every once in a while I launch it just to see like I don't have to ation before [TS]

  where when I launched in application updater didn't even know about. [TS]

  Like the newest version of Fireball the updater wasn't new enough to know that like actually there on Firefox version [TS]

  like thirty years something and it want to download it wanted to go to like version twelve or something. [TS]

  If that was the latest So sometimes I don't run it so long that it just goes. [TS]

  Occasionally I fired up to see what it's like I used back in the day to Chrome totally replaced it so you only use [TS]

  Firefox socially so I when I mean maintain like. [TS]

  Get Firefox to be Tyrell tolerable back in the day I had a series of themes that I had to apply [TS]

  and the themes would break with new version so every time a new version came out I would update Firefox [TS]

  and try to find a new version of the cool theme that I liked him [TS]

  and then just Firefox went crazy I said forget it I still don't see your thirty web browsers open with roundabouts six [TS]

  tabs per for window. [TS]

  Oh God what do you need a hundred new temps or the stuff the stuff and I look at this [TS]

  when I have stuff because I don't think anything's of stock the stuff to be worth something someday I have to keep it. [TS]

  You exit the U. [TS]

  Acts of mobile settings [TS]

  and I read that one eventual meaning there is because things tend to get buried in Instapaper because they fall off the [TS]

  end of this one I really want to read I can leave it open in a web browser. [TS]

  Do you have a hundred maybe looking to go and do something now. [TS]

  This swift and blog post I read or I think I can close that one thing I read it at work. [TS]

  This is hoarders this is just this is hoarders. [TS]

  Yeah this is you know your lives are out of work on where they're going to the the the levels of hoarding. [TS]

  I'm finished I'm like half way this is a relevant topic then but I was definitely not because as you'll find out [TS]

  when you listen to the episode. Hoarders on over their stuff as you are you are just an indexed order. [TS]

  Now it's not it's not morning at all it's characteristic of the heart of it is that not a lot of [TS]

  and then I'm not saving this other thing is going to be worth something from the i've I bet hoarders. [TS]

  First of all you are sitting because you think you can actually get to it I will I do get to how do you think things [TS]

  close think close they've got time I don't necessarily get to them on this computer [TS]

  but I might give them some Please also see I can close this one this is from I think comparable you know they don't [TS]

  know our tabs gun right. So why was it open all day. [TS]

  Welp it wasn't over all day because I just got on my computer I've been I've been busy I have I have no time to like [TS]

  sit at my computer and do anything except for open one more new way since my ninety six. [TS]

  Someday I'll clean it all out [TS]

  when I retire hell I hope I open that window with all those tabs in it for movie information for an incomparable. [TS]

  But I did feel like last night [TS]

  and I didn't call the windows of our life experiences late I got my way of computing is extremely efficient. [TS]

  People people for many people don't understand that like how do you have all these windows over how do you find it [TS]

  again I see somebody else [TS]

  when I tell them to open up a new file they open a Terminal window they see into the Directory V.I.I. [TS]

  The file name the head of the file then my hands over a new file they close that file the CD to another directory [TS]

  there's I.V.I. [TS]

  The file name and edit the file that is inefficient [TS]

  and then all the while they're doing this in one windows into their entire gigantic twenty three inch screen and stay. [TS]

  Instead I have a different terminal windows open different locations that I need to walk over to the director to do [TS]

  stuff. [TS]

  Shortcuts for a command to do things it is much more efficient than the people think I send you everything clean just [TS]

  one window that covers my entire screen do everything there. You're basically multi-tasking vs single tasking. [TS]

  Yeah there's a lot of room between those two I mean towards one end but it's not like this one I think you already [TS]

  and yet you know looking back on the rest of society were saying Geez I remember what that's like. [TS]

  I think you'll find a lot of old school mac users work like this with multiple windows [TS]

  and people people who didn't grow up managing Windows [TS]

  and Windows are their enemy they just want to get them off the screen they can't handle them they don't it doesn't [TS]

  occur to them to try to arrange or shape them as they would physical objects [TS]

  and so they just they just appear randomly and they're at the mercy of their windows [TS]

  and so their only solution is to have very few windows This is the only way they can feel like they have any mastery of [TS]

  the computer I don't have that problem. John let me assure you that whether or not you are aware of it. [TS]

  Windows are your enemy as well. They are not out there my friend. We need to have like a Windows zero intervention. [TS]

  I'll give Here's a tip for the two you have both I assume use terminal [TS]

  and various times yeah you have a terminal window arrangement that you can save in Terminal where you dedicate sizes [TS]

  shapes in regions for Windows dedicated to stay. Purposes for example. [TS]

  Here are my remote windows for this type of machine. [TS]

  This is my log tailing window this is my window for root on a local machine this is my window for starting [TS]

  and stopping the web server and then those when as you have tabs for some purposes [TS]

  but dedicate a few major readers of the things that you do with the things I listed are things I commonly do [TS]

  but whatever the things are you have only to have Windows size shapes in regions for them. [TS]

  You'll never find yourself command tilting through windows. [TS]

  Again you will never find yourself hunting for a window because everything will be like your Union Terminal One is a [TS]

  type of thing where you can actually have them not overlapping that much because you don't need that many Turmel [TS]

  and especially with have to cover all your bases and all of your news [TS]

  and then you never need to wonder where to look in their need to rearrange things you can see or logging tales [TS]

  or something. Everything is always exactly where you want to try that just in one application. [TS]

  Well I have that I mean I know where things are I just get by with fewer windows so. [TS]

  So how many what are your categories of windows of like you know for the for the have a test describe them what for [TS]

  terminal. [TS]

  Yeah OK the camp of this is the SO All right so I have I have right now for terminal windows most of which are single [TS]

  tabs of the main I have like one main one in the bottom that that's where I keep like six or seven tabs open [TS]

  and they're always in a similar order like the far left. [TS]

  I was always like you know just like somewhere in my home directory. [TS]

  Whatever I'm working working on the current project terminal window [TS]

  and then as you go to the right one of the mini is like the most recent eighty people working on X. [TS]

  I do encoding on a command line and transcoding on the command line you have to add titles. [TS]

  No no I did it to show the command because I can tell like in this one says like root D.B. [TS]

  One I know what that means like that's like that so I have a couple of servers doing if I'm doing local of development [TS]

  I have my ski well window open I have a P.H.D. Window open like you know but it's. It's always in the same spot. [TS]

  Like I keep the same tabs in the same spots I just get by with a lot fewer of them. [TS]

  No I do the same thing for that within tabs I have different builds that I'm working in a range in tabs by date [TS]

  or always have the release build in the far left tab for the window that I'm that I'm doing on the dead machine which [TS]

  is which is the window where I'm typing commands into then I have a separate went over several projects in different [TS]

  places similar arrangement in my log telling Windows it's in a totally different spot it's much wider because of log a [TS]

  long while ago and yeah I got one of those topics. [TS]

  I mean I feel like so a while ago I think I think this was in Bruce talking Izzy's talk on her Facebook for him like [TS]

  from I don't know him from like the late eighty's early ninety's whenever that was from [TS]

  and he mentioned there was a study that they were doing when they were both on the original Mac. [TS]

  You aren't of like that that you know comparing keyboard shortcuts to doing things with the mouse and at the time [TS]

  and probably is not true anymore but at the time they said that you know they were doing these U.I. [TS]

  Studies and people would always think the keyboard shortcuts were faster than doing things with the mouse. [TS]

  But then when they actually observe people they actually measured how fast people were doing tasks. [TS]

  Often times I think in their study I think it was the majority of the time. [TS]

  Again I don't think is a culture today [TS]

  but even though people thought that the keyboard was going to be faster in practice [TS]

  when the way people actually worked using the mouse was faster and they didn't think so but [TS]

  when you actually measure it by wall clock time it was faster. [TS]

  That's the other thing that drives people crazy [TS]

  when they especially nerds who are like the big power thing is I do everything from the keyboard my hands never leave [TS]

  the keyboard I'm a touch typist I have never had to go. [TS]

  The home keys everything is a keyboard shortcut to never need to touch the mouse. [TS]

  If you watch me use the computer I am constantly bouncing between mouse [TS]

  and the keyboard some time you're going to blow that once of its modifier thing [TS]

  and people think that must be incredibly inefficient [TS]

  but it's not because there are certain things especially if you're doing especially [TS]

  when doing things spatially ranging. [TS]

  Anything the whole point is spatially arranging things as you can grab at it in a moment's notice you know exactly [TS]

  where it is right and part of the little game the game of gauging of spatially arranging things [TS]

  but you're not going to have room for everything. [TS]

  Things are going to overlap what you need to have is a region that can be relied some corner of a thing that can be [TS]

  reliably visible you like how are you going to rein in things like a little bubble so you can find the corner [TS]

  but it becomes second nature where you quickly grab the mouse snag the corner of the window you're interested in [TS]

  because it's always in the same place you know exactly what's in it. [TS]

  If you need to change tabs within that window some people are going to cycle through them of the keyboard. [TS]

  It's faster your hand is already on the mouse click the pad that you know you want to do you want to go to the release [TS]

  build is the far left tab you could never have gotten to that prompt faster with a series of keyboard shortcuts you [TS]

  just couldn't because you'd have to like you know like it's like you know it's like iterative versus translator versus [TS]

  you know declarative one of the opposite of imperative versus declarative as they're pointed out anyway like you're [TS]

  running a program in your head. [TS]

  Some people do that so they were good at running programs like vi down five lines over three words insert character [TS]

  like that's not the way I think though I think it's over there and I just grabbed it with the mouse [TS]

  and that is second nature to me and I don't have to think about it. Well OK so today we're having a point. [TS]

  Number one the reason I brought up that whole talking [TS]

  or face study is is like how you might be thinking what you're doing is faster but it might not be faster. [TS]

  I know it's faster because people see it when people can use my computer they can't follow it. Like what are you doing. [TS]

  I didn't wait I didn't see that they cannot follow what I'm doing. [TS]

  Well I think a person who is who is like an experienced power user for computers like that I think that would apply to [TS]

  almost all those people like people who really fashion work on a computer regardless of how they're arranging things so [TS]

  anyway the second point is the way the way you arrange things how you're describing is the reasons you're citing for [TS]

  doing this make it sound like what you're trying to avoid is like having to like pull something back out of like where [TS]

  it where it lives like in an office. [TS]

  Find stories like having to open up a new window to go to something having to like you know pull out a file out of a [TS]

  Finder window or open up a new terminal window in CD of the right directory or as if you know the right thing [TS]

  or whatever but in reality like if that's what you're accustomed to like if somebody with the same level of skill [TS]

  and familiarity with with computers and using them [TS]

  and whatever system they've built up over time if they do it the other way which I think is closer to a case you know I [TS]

  do which is like a small number of windows with a higher tolerance of having to go fetch something from disk [TS]

  or whatever and I can't stand the Watcher of the show of those people it isn't like oh I have to go to this thing. [TS]

  I mean open a new and let me go into the right directory it's right here already there and then the end of it [TS]

  and then when you close the window when I'm done to clean everything out and then do the same thing five minutes later. [TS]

  But if that was the system that you had chosen to implement if that was if that was the way that you worked I would [TS]

  posit that you would be very similarly fast if not indistinguishably fat it's not it's not about what I said before [TS]

  it's a fish and sea and efficiency doesn't just involve speed but also involves cognitive load [TS]

  and this is the type of zone. So your cognitive world is manageable. [TS]

  Yeah I guess because you don't see the things that are within reach you don't think about if you find yourself thinking [TS]

  words in your head or thinking a little programs [TS]

  or star macros a series of steps that is a much higher cognitive load then you're not thinking about it all in the same [TS]

  way you don't think about it [TS]

  when you pull your phone out your pocket is always in the same pocket you don't think OK reach down get thrown out of [TS]

  pocket. [TS]

  I only have one pocket I don't have a hundred fricken pockets to go searching through I know [TS]

  but then you're only you have a working set of things I was trying to show is spatial memory is different than having a [TS]

  where every pocket is the same reason that it was going with Marco doesn't name his tabs right. [TS]

  How do you know where they are [TS]

  or you know where they are my position you don't need to have custom Pad titles on the contents of that would imply [TS]

  that you're reading the titles of the tabs [TS]

  and once you find use of reading that has attended shows you don't know where the thing is you're looking for. [TS]

  Well they also have labels to help that just like you know they're pretty light weight but you know what it looks like. [TS]

  So my main chrome window always says G M L Is the far left have I don't even know the title of the G. [TS]

  Mail tab is the same place I don't know exactly where it is I have all my Ted's own main Google window are always in [TS]

  exactly the same order as not just because like a lot of acts I close that window [TS]

  and lose an entry I can recreate it I know where everything is by position because those are the tabs that I use most [TS]

  frequently and going for something based on where it is or what shape it is or you like the color it is [TS]

  or whatever like recognizing the icon that does not require high level neurocognitive functions it just happens the [TS]

  same way you can find all the light switches in your house [TS]

  and you can recognize what your car looks like in a parking lot without reading the model number off the side of the [TS]

  thing is just visual recognition and where things are in space [TS]

  and especially as it relates to you reaching for them even if it's virtually with a mouse is so much more efficient [TS]

  ever having to read or count things John. I always have terminal open on my computer. [TS]

  It always has no less than three tabs [TS]

  and they are always showing the same things I didn't even know it was possible to name a tab because I only have three [TS]

  parking tabs open at a time and you just don't do a lot of things at once. [TS]

  I guess I just stresses me out so much just thinking about the way you work I mean obviously it works for you while [TS]

  you're not trying to I mean I think you're free to not spill it shouldn't it shouldn't stress you really is just the [TS]

  amount of things you have to do [TS]

  and also your tolerance for like if you can't manage this mess if you can't sort of like deal with this swarm of things [TS]

  if they if they feel like they're overwhelming you rather than you controlling them then that's a problem right. [TS]

  But you know like they know these things don't come into existence on their own. [TS]

  I make them [TS]

  and I put them in places the thing that bothers me are things that are created that I can't arrange that like any [TS]

  application for example like the messages that where as far as I know. [TS]

  Well I guess you can plot a separate conversation but really really want to use a single window for everything [TS]

  and I can't stand that because I have no control over what order things are in the left side bar. [TS]

  And it's just one window. [TS]

  And if something is happening to some of the conversation I have to go find it click on that little finding click on my [TS]

  A.T.M. [TS]

  It remembers window positions on a per person basis [TS]

  and I can tell who I'm talking to like how many times I accidentally typed the wrong thing into the wrong to the wrong [TS]

  person an A.T.M. Almost never. [TS]

  How many times I do it messages all the friggin time because it's the same tech stocks for everybody if you didn't [TS]

  notice that you can change the mode to switch to the conversation you want to talk [TS]

  and you end up typing the wrong thing to the ropers A.T.M. That doesn't happen. [TS]

  Even though everything was identical visually speaking like they all the colors are the same everything the same the [TS]

  only things different is the size of the windows [TS]

  and if I have four conversations going at the same time I keep track of which more people I'm talking not by memorizing [TS]

  OK this person is in the upper right [TS]

  but just window never moves unless I move it it's tied to the person I'm talking to my wife [TS]

  when it was always in the same spot on the screen [TS]

  and so I never actually type something to you a person that I should be talking to my wife because I would never do [TS]

  that it's totally in a different position. I would never grab that window. [TS]

  Whereas in messages I had to pay super careful attention to which little thing the scroll of the top in which a little [TS]

  message clicked on it it's terrible. [TS]

  All right so if we do titles for a week my favorite title so far that was actually said during the regular show is [TS]

  something that we can say right now which is nothing is resolved. Where is the mountain where the pale thing. [TS]

  Wait wait you didn't know where I don't know why I was wearing the little Lincoln thing on the top of my I.R.C. [TS]

  Window and I said where is the link to the titles. Why don't you already have a window down like you just lost it. [TS]

  You didn't know exactly where it was because I Well here's the other let me tell you why because I got my expanded look [TS]

  the link not the window I didn't have the new one is over why didn't I have any one of the title thing in it because I [TS]

  closed it when the show was over anyway. [TS]

  I turned on a little thing you know [TS]

  when I was looking for was titles because they were honest titles that incomparable dot com And so I didn't read all [TS]

  the taxes in the topic recording most when. [TS]

  Those nine pm Bob a lot I didn't read it I was just looking for the word title and didn't see it [TS]

  and saw it on expanded it and expanded it and then I said oh yes show but it doesn't say title. Oh my God. [TS]

  Pedal incomparably them like that anyway. My God And this is a hoarder will leave the show but open all the time. [TS]

  Yes I'm not I close it as soon as we're done with titles. [TS]

  You hoard everything under the sun but you all know I don't I don't not that's out of your self esteem. [TS]

  It does and I my God it is what things do you think I keep open that aren't like G. [TS]

  Mail open because males always coming in you know if there's something if I'm done reading something [TS]

  or if I don't use now it's closed and if I don't either and I don't want to like I have to remember the titles [TS]

  or thing I have to look at no there's no pending task for titles. [TS]

  Oh my God I've been the success the MacPro episode you think I should keep going all the time. [TS]

  I'm afraid going up on a bunch of Web sockets [TS]

  and exhaust my file descriptors I know that I don't I don't think it actually even works you can leave it on time [TS]

  because it clears itself out eventually breaks and does it eventually Times suffer but I can't handle this. [TS]

  I just I literally can't even. Nothing is resolved. [TS]

  This is this is either the best or worst ending to the show that I've ever heard. [TS]

  I mean we get to talk about the fall by the Play Station four controller [TS]

  but also for next week next week so that's fine. That one is always open to a T.V. [TS]

  Show not that a tab in my main window always there to show notes show notes are always there. [TS]

  Yeah because I'm always finding things during the drought. [TS]

  I don't need to open a new window for don't need to go to a bookmark I don't even know what the [TS]

  or else is a some crazy Google Docs thing I just never close it. [TS]

  So here's a question why don't you do that with more things that you keep in tabs they were like Why did you take so [TS]

  many just has that you have opened for a month and make a document somewhere with them [TS]

  or save them somewhere so that you can recall them later so you don't have to have all these tabs one in the paper. [TS]

  Right there if they're open in a browser window it's because they've gone up to another level [TS]

  but I don't want to get buried in this debate because I'll forget about it I actually do want to read it so leave it [TS]

  here if they want to read it or show it to somebody [TS]

  or it's something that I can only do on IMAX I want to remember oh yeah I went online that there was that one thing [TS]

  that I can look at on my i Pad for some reason trying to remember the like now that I know I'm acting something I [TS]

  should look at that one thing that I can. [TS]

  Good example which I have open right now is your punctuation which does this thing of like pay if you want the H T M L [TS]

  five versions you actually make if you can't watch and i OS device which is generally [TS]

  when I want to watch these videos so I have the window open to remind me hey you're sitting on your back [TS]

  and you have some free time to do something with your punctuation is there and you can only watch it [TS]

  when you're here as they don't leave the computer until you do and I did watch a bunch of the other day [TS]

  but I'm not all caught up with the window open. You can concentrate right now. [TS]

  The seven went the rabbit Windowshade Fadhil right in. [TS]

  I'd like Windowshade that I don't take issue if I take issue with you having three hundred windows. [TS]

  Marco can handle the stakes the stakes now it looks really weird to me like I don't think of it is like a phantom [TS]

  window like only I guess like the shadow of the window is there like why why just leave the window there let the whole [TS]

  point of hiding or minimizing when is it to get them off the screen completely I know [TS]

  but like most of the windows guns as the title bar and kind of are sent to be near the top anyway. [TS]

  But you can see you can see like where the window was you can visualize it being there [TS]

  and the other thing is like it used to be for like peeking behind the window like you just want to see what's behind it [TS]

  briefly but you don't want to change the focus you just go you know double click clicked [TS]

  and you know like actually shaded because the thing is behind you don't have a good way to do that these days you can [TS]

  you know if you option click the window behind you can the one before you can go back to it if you know as a doctor you [TS]

  go chase it down there to be able to come back out or do a keyboard combo for it [TS]

  but if you pick the peak you would use it if it was there. [TS]

  Surprisingly useful maybe even use it is like all the time I have lost things [TS]

  and if I've been ill you know that Peking thing actually comes in handy. This is Europe. [TS]

  I know I know this is an app that I want to [TS]

  but I'm never write an app like that because it's really complicated to make [TS]

  and you have to tie deeply into like the window serous actually using like a private undocumented Baby Eyes who want to [TS]

  maintain that maybe instead of making this be your app the file system. [TS]

  You know I think that the file system crusade has been fought as much as you can fight it [TS]

  and I think it's out of your hands now that there's nothing more was ever in my hands I was in my hands tell me about [TS]

  that time. [TS]

  There's nothing more you can do to try to convince Apple to make a new file system like you've done everything you [TS]

  possibly could to do that I can continue to complain [TS]

  but you still now you could you could refocus your efforts from that which I think is probably isn't probably has [TS]

  reached the end of what you can really do with that. [TS]

  Now you can start not making a window shade but trying to make Apple add that feature back to the O. S. [TS]

  One of the when there are several stand for a long time member. [TS]

  Yes I remember there was an incentive thing it was actually oh OK well that doesn't count. [TS]

  Yeah [TS]

  but I use I use it for years that was the last one I used eventually you know I really had my system of all those weird [TS]

  system extensions and I was the last one to go. But now you know it's long gone. [TS]

  I don't use any of those things anymore and you know [TS]

  when to try to get along with I don't miss it that much I don't miss it as much as like you know a working finder. [TS]

  Not that I'm is more like like we pay for John you know no one's going to weep for my computing it's if you saw me [TS]

  using my computer wouldn't seem that way to you have no idea how happy this crystal meth makes me just let me keep [TS]

  abusing it doesn't do is no harmful effects. If harm of like seems to be on you not me. [TS]

  That's what I want just to feel the same way when I see someone using a computer. [TS]

  This incredibly powerful computer with a huge screen and I have like two windows open [TS]

  and every time they want I mean they open a new window use it and then close it. [TS]

  I can never they never sort of arrange their workspace into like a set of things that they're currently working on [TS]

  and you never close a window. [TS]

  Well like I said the worst thing is when someone's working you know if you're doing programming [TS]

  and of having multiple files even if you know like if you have a header file [TS]

  and importation filing there's multiple like programming is necessarily dealing with multiple files [TS]

  when programming even more so there's just a lot of files and you're working on them all at the same time. [TS]

  Mike you're working in one you stop in the Org another and you stop and you kind of do [TS]

  but you're cycling between them so often that if the overhead of going to fetch the other one is too high [TS]

  and I see people they will only have one window one they call it a text editing window and filled the entire screen [TS]

  or whatever their editor is they work on one document and they close it they open another document they work on it [TS]

  and they close it they open and I can work on clothes and occasionally they'll split the view and open one document [TS]

  and like a single splitter so they can see them both at once. [TS]

  But this isn't you know a giant screen often in portrait orientation and that is like so [TS]

  and then if you want them to like do something command line they close all their editing windows because that's all the [TS]

  terminal window and they have a command and that command doesn't return given their prompt back. [TS]

  Like the frequent phrase if I am a cell saying to people as you know open another terminal window [TS]

  or get me out of the shell prompt like they just work with one and whatever that one shell prompt [TS]

  and just said this is the equivalent of not understanding my millions of Windows I can understand if you'll get [TS]

  anything done with one. Like they just use one note pad no multiple windows. Yeah this is such a false dichotomy. [TS]

  Well I'm not it's not this is the other end of the spectrum [TS]

  and sometimes I understand cases frustration in seeing someone use a computer the way they don't think [TS]

  but thing is he's not even seeing me the computer is just visualizing in his mind [TS]

  but that's the way people feel comfortable I guess that what they can keep track of is one thing at a time you crack it [TS]

  was like you know you're for a terminal and those with a couple taps and I can keep track of a lot. [TS]

  I've done this a long time. [TS]

  The thing that is if you told them you had like four windows for Safari windows open and there's a. You tabs in each. [TS]

  You know I would still think you're a little crazy but you know whatever [TS]

  but what if you say thirty windows with something to the order of six to have a window no human being I don't even you [TS]

  let everyone know as six tabs like I mean by by my bug tracking Windows four tabs here my titles [TS]

  and us what you know has no tabs because it's just a bug tracker. [TS]

  Occasionally I can solve it but I don't like consolidating things that aren't grouped together like I wouldn't stick. [TS]

  I would never stick the punctuation window as a tab in the same window as the title thing because they're all related [TS]

  because I can handle and we saw them like that and nothing is resolved nothing is resolved Marco. [TS]

  I'm frustrated enough that I that I looked at C M F saying that Windows of Syracuse accounting [TS]

  and almost for myself I use that it doesn't really matter obviously but just thinking about it distresses me. [TS]

  Well let's talk about the MacPro some just to calm me down. [TS]

  When you look at there's another window shade that happen out there. [TS]

  Never heard of this on the other hand installed so it's a crazy system act with window miser minimizers application [TS]

  lets you see what's behind the front window without minimizing the current winner to the DOT pitching added that uses [TS]

  the main feature. Now Thanks All right. [TS]

  Your choices are nothing resolved or the county on the whole the have nots Charice will see. [TS]

  Announce have to do it just doesn't bother you. [TS]

  If there was ever a time to do searches a county title this is that I think you're right. [TS]

  No one telling a lie when there is no time [TS]

  when you talking about like suddenly have time for this is no time coming around coming around. [TS]

  Once you give in to the search area Hell that's the thing I can't give C.M.F. [TS]

  It his her her oh well nothing is resolved. [TS]

  If there was ever a time I was ever a time no they're not going county about that Windows doesn't sound like bridges [TS]

  you don't think that's where it came from. [TS]

  Brigitte show over a bridge [TS]

  and you just say like well I'm going to take the thirty's the county part like there's nothing geographic it doesn't [TS]

  make any sense you just take the blanket over there he's a county that's the worst of the center using any titles [TS]

  and I mean you know you think anything is take a bear all your terrorist activity right now you do your show with this [TS]

  title on it think about it. [TS]

  No I I have never in every other suggestion the people of had of some stupid Syracuse a county title. [TS]

  I have never thought it was worth using I know what how is is one better how is this noun stuck into the Mad Libs [TS]

  better than the other. [TS]

  I think this is completely worth it if we if we use a Syracuse a county title once in this entire process in the entire [TS]

  run of however long we end up doing this I think this is a good candidate for that are you committing to only do one [TS]

  thing. Yes. [TS]

  Yeah I think we only could do it once [TS]

  and I think this is such a good opportunity I would do it now you know for a terrible titles and then [TS]

  and enjoy the crazy amount of suggestion of the you will like that and then we are all agreeing ahem C.M.F. [TS]

  That we're never going to recommend this again. Yeah yeah I'm sure this will work. [TS]

  Now Tony that's it that's really only if we start getting That's fine for Buddha. [TS]

  That was a thing I never noticed that it was yes it was a holdover from back to work that somehow leaked into our title [TS]

  early on. Yes. [TS]

  Well you know I thought going to talk about tonight we need to as it is going to be a short show we'd like barely get [TS]

  like to an hour twenty. [TS]

  Have no idea let's talk about it as you know the news isn't that interesting [TS]

  and I thought we be scraping around for you know desperation topics [TS]

  and I didn't talk to people all day about how they're not using their computers. The frost potential. They're like. [TS]

  When you see somebody else use a computer. Do you feel like they could be doing it better or faster of course. [TS]

  Yeah I know all the time I have the feeling so much I can look at other people use computers I can't imagine what it's [TS]

  like for you [TS]

  and I get there is that they're like This is the hell of your life it's not as bad as like having two hands on the [TS]

  mouse. [TS]

  Slowly I remember character up in the glove box but that's what it feels like and I feel better [TS]

  when I see people who do everything in one window [TS]

  but do everything on keyboard those touch typist people always I feel better about those people because they may not be [TS]

  as efficient as they could be but it's clear that they have a system [TS]

  and so it's like a just a flurry of commands in the screen is splitting and flashing [TS]

  and changing from one thing to the other and they're probably doing more work than they have to [TS]

  but things are happening versus the person he sees in a computer [TS]

  and you make a suggestion it's like All right so now I got to go to that server because the new window where I could [TS]

  type as you go to the server every day [TS]

  and you know there's no shortcuts no Elliot's there's no there's no keyboard shortcut there's no existing open window. [TS]

  It's like a brand new thing every time I open and terminal unknown type contact so I can you know that's [TS]

  when I see anybody using a puter and I had a lighter version of that same feeling [TS]

  when I see someone using a computer a massively powerful computer with a huge screen that has three windows open. [TS]

  So would it just drive you insane if I told you I kind of like the full screen mode [TS]

  and whatever came in on lion full screen like is appropriate for things like especially if you have an eleven interact [TS]

  with care or something you know that the full screen is not that big anyway [TS]

  and you just want to get rid of the window come and fill it up and people use spaces. [TS]

  I can kind of see what they're doing at least something is happening. [TS]

  I'm obsessive about space as they swipe from place to spaces makes your engines like this is my goofing off. [TS]

  Face in this is my work space and this is my you know console logging space or whatever [TS]

  and it makes people sort of arrange things I think swiping between all of the animation gets a little tiresome [TS]

  and kind of make me seasick. [TS]

  But one of the many reasons I don't use it and I hate forgetting what space something is [TS]

  and every time I've tried to use it I guess I don't have a system but it is a system it is not. [TS]

  I just have like a window here and like when I watch my parents use a computer I want [TS]

  and only have one window because they cannot handle overarching windows at all. [TS]

  Like once is one window behind another one of the last it's gone that they don't have object permanence for Windows. [TS]

  Where did that go from the same place where I was before I left him of do they have they have the same number of [TS]

  windows as you prefer a completely different reason. No they have like two windows. [TS]

  They have two maybe three windows like they do not have a lot of windows but they even two [TS]

  or three because they can all be on the same because they want the browser window to be really big eventually hides all [TS]

  the other ones they lose track of they have a very different problem. [TS]

  Yes we have to go to bed with you and you wondered why I was excited about splitting the screen [TS]

  and I said Oh no I don't. How do you know how many I can see on your desktop. [TS]

  That's pretty neat I have a cluster to the left oh yeah look at one's lifetime you've seen your contest. [TS]

  I just see right now you know how I saw it without even thinking about it how do you think I did it. Corner. [TS]

  Yes Hot Corner of course. Hot cars are awesome. [TS]

  Did not have to think about how how many are going to stop so I click on the Finder and then command option H. [TS]

  No it happened before without even thinking. Boom it's there in front of me I don't know how it happened. [TS]

  My hand flicked the cursor into the power of my left side I've got a couple of voltage for the things I'm working on [TS]

  now I've got my call recorder recording folder I got a hold of my wife keeps on my thing I think a folder I have of the [TS]

  media drive alias server aliases they give her a break for you in the Finder like you make an alias of the server that [TS]

  you mountain you'd like now be able to mount that easily and then every once in a while there I kind of goes generic [TS]

  and doesn't work anymore. I don't know what else. [TS]

  Never been able to reliably reconnect to a finder network share a new way besides going to the computer in the list [TS]

  and be mounting it like every other method is always failed and eventually you know this is work for me for a while [TS]

  and I keep hearing as I use a lot [TS]

  and then I've got nothing in the whole middle of the desktop on the right side of the desktop I have a bunch of files [TS]

  that are kind of like temp scrap files for work one of the files as a garage band file buddies check my levels [TS]

  occasionally because it shows the way form when I talk into it I make sure I'm not clipping to adjust again [TS]

  and stuff like that. I've got Kate's coloring pages in a folder there. [TS]

  She's always having me find pictures for her and print them out so she can call them in. [TS]

  I've got a couple of podcasts that I wish I could put into overcast but I can have his mark on the files [TS]

  and link to what is this a link to a toilet part that it is bought. [TS]

  But I need to like file that away somewhere and that's about it. [TS]

  So it may be like one two three four five six seven eight nine icons [TS]

  and then to drive I don't know how many I have one now you know do a lot of stuff you didn't just repair a toilet you [TS]

  know. Checking our microphone levels you know that. [TS]

  So I did you prepare a toilet three times actually as I kept doing it wrong. [TS]

  Did you save the links to the place where you got the parts you can find I found breaks. [TS]

  Nope because first of all who cares. [TS]

  Second of all I bought them on Amazon and Amazon keeps a whole history there than I ever bought [TS]

  and I was then of getting from these random plumbing supply companies I have right now. [TS]

  I like I really just need to turn that into a note in your Jimbo. [TS]

  Like for example I get replacing wiper blade there is forget what size of they are for the different cars for the first [TS]

  time I buy them I just write them down with links to the things and yeah Amazon is good about funny orders alone. [TS]

  Sometimes I search their art [TS]

  or history I wonder if it's like losing things is difficult because sometimes I buy through my wife's some of the [TS]

  account sometimes are mine [TS]

  but anyway I give a pretty neat stuff I mean I want to say that I want to say I think that was a lot of icons for big [TS]

  screen you know when you know it does not look like a people who don't manage their desktop just basically cover [TS]

  but I guess they look like your browser. [TS]

  Windows is what they look like now everything's manage I know exactly where everything is. [TS]

  It has a place everything has a place I don't I just I could just mouse over it just happened. [TS]

  I don't even know how it gets there. My mouth just guides itself right there. [TS]

  I could close any of these Any time I just choose not to. It's true but also how many are your own your stuff. [TS]

  That's tomorrow I don't want to cancel I'd eyeballing it from about ten to twelve the same as me. [TS]

  It's just whatever stuff you have been working on in flight and like the kids coloring page stuff I just leave [TS]

  and start just because I mean I could put and clicks over to I want to be as skinny [TS]

  and out there also because I drag things out of Safari windows I want to drag that you know once you get to the full [TS]

  size version the image of him you just feel to drag it out of the window and drop into the folder you know [TS]

  and so then the folder folder is on the desktop is easy to do that has to start the drag flicking to the corner [TS]

  or centre on the right edge half time they're visible anyway why don't you just leave the window open all the time with [TS]

  the image even has you know is I printed I want to print it it's gone it's done I'm not leaving things around Verdun [TS]

  for no reason. [TS]

  They all have a purpose and was the purpose of done and they close yes [TS]

  and less that the monitoring type thing that I'm looking at all the time like email [TS]

  and the wonderful thing is John on an infinite time scale everything for the infinite times the argument work. [TS]

  Going to timescale every window closes it were taught were done I can't take this anymore. [TS]

  The thing is going to tie into the argument is not done for the benefit of the chat room [TS]

  and the people of the other two host of this program. [TS]

  Yeah the argument is for when somebody agrees with you that something will happen [TS]

  but any time you try to pin it down with a date they say oh well no that won't happen so it's like you agree this is [TS]

  going to happen [TS]

  but the only way I can get you to agree with that is say well what about five hundred years in a future [TS]

  and say oh yeah. Well of course I haven't a five minute future. [TS]

  What about next week never what about next year never [TS]

  or the next five years never what about five hundred years in the future. OK I agree. [TS]

  So degree it somewhere between five hundred years in the future [TS]

  and now where between there is you trying to get someone to you know this is something that you both agree will [TS]

  eventually happen but every time you throw to date and it's in the conceivable future. They said no. [TS]

  So that's what the that's are you doing with an infinite time scale argument is basically getting someone to agree this [TS]

  who we both think this is going to happen. [TS]

  All were arguing about is when [TS]

  and the only way you can get to that is by throwing out a ridiculous date like well what about five hundred even if you [TS]

  are then will we have won sixteen gigs of flash memory on Iowa's devices [TS]

  and if they all share five hundred in the future of course you are right [TS]

  and that's like All right well then let's back it up and see where we can get it's not. [TS]

  But extrapolate into the future [TS]

  and say that something is going to happen if we just keep advancing times not quite the same thing is that a thing you [TS]

  know everyone has a purpose if you will. [TS]

  It's a nuance thing when you get to be using it wrong [TS]

  and I want you to be able to employ this in your life is what I feel I felt when I read it originally I was Marco. [TS]

  Well what was the original time. [TS]

  It was something we only arrive [TS]

  but I forgot it was something about like you know a feature to a harbor feature coming to max on the no you know I [TS]

  think I think it was was whether Apple needed wins [TS]

  or being swift like the whole you know Copeland twenty whatever it was like I was saying like just to see is fine [TS]

  and it will be fine for a long time [TS]

  and right as I go as a long time in you know so I will eventually they're going to need a language [TS]

  and you know what does eventually mean never to return that eventually made like six months from now. Yeah right. [TS]

  But that's all pointed all point was not to convince you that if you wait for the heat death of the universe apple of a [TS]

  new program I was at the point was to get us to both agree that they need a new one and all are going about is [TS]

  when OK we got there are so high and that eventually I win that argument but OK Are we really done now. [TS]