The Talk Show

165: ‘I Do Feel the Pea’, With Special Guest Guy English

 

  this argument is why we're going to stop being friends like one day we're gonna [TS]

  get drunk and get really mad about it is I think we have I think we are looking [TS]

  like like in a way that like you know maybe other guys would get in a fight [TS]

  over you know sports or a girl or something like that like you can get in [TS]

  fights over Celsius vs paradise is right [TS]

  yeah you're the only person I know who I can't convince that ok at least it makes [TS]

  sense for temperature [TS]

  yeah you can convince me because it doesn't make sense [TS]

  it's just anyway whatever I don't want to get into it but it's it's a in the [TS]

  nineties way too hot in the hundreds dangerously hop in any condition what [TS]

  honestly I kind of believe you i get it i really do especially to spend more [TS]

  time in the States [TS]

  i I really do and that can leave this close circle of you me and all of your [TS]

  listeners so yeah I do get it but I just it's but the arguments for it make no [TS]

  sense man like it's all about what you're accustomed to [TS]

  I totally agree that for anything anything else for you know doctors to do [TS]

  you know you go to the hospital they should do everything in Celsius you know [TS]

  all science obviously should be conducted and celsius to kelvin or [TS]

  whatever scale makes sense but for sure by the weather Fahrenheit Fahrenheit the [TS]

  bottom so they trying to trying to get away from this little bit apple [TS]

  introduced a whole bunch of new AP is this last cycle for different [TS]

  measurements and one of them was temperature [TS]

  what do you think the system these was probably [TS]

  this Calvin Calvin yeah because I wanted to be selfish because I wanted to be [TS]

  like hey screw you John but no I was kelvin which makes sense 0 and kelvin is [TS]

  like it's absolutely right up its absolute zero yeah there is [TS]

  I mean those so let's get in there is no lies there are no nothing moves there [TS]

  there is no like it is [TS]

  00 it's not like water gets cold it's like I've done [TS]

  yeah yeah that makes some sense it's sort of like you know the cooler keeping [TS]

  time from the a POC yes [TS]

  yeah oh yeah right like you gotta pick a temperature date kind of thing so right [TS]

  yeah I got some follow-up I don't know if you listen to my last show Jason [TS]

  Jason snail was on ever gotten [TS]

  we got talking about the chemical keyboards yeah and I expressed my [TS]

  frustration with the fact that that there's you get into mechanical [TS]

  keyboards like I i got into them and I like the Apple extended to I don't know [TS]

  what kind of switches I think they're made by a company called helps but you [TS]

  don't have to choose I just know that i like the Apple extended to keyboard i [TS]

  used it when I was kid I i owned one since I was 19 years old [TS]

  yeah i did this is one thing where I'd I mean honestly really only the [TS]

  temperature things where your locker but you were totally right about that [TS]

  keyboard right think you have a weird obsession with it like I did you move I [TS]

  move with the times [TS]

  Brett it is what it is but I admire I admire your dedication to that one [TS]

  keyboard with Jason and I Jason I've got talking about modern mechanical [TS]

  keyboards and you by like a new USB one and when you buy them you get the choice [TS]

  between different switches so and there's other companies too but the [TS]

  famous companies cherry this company cherry makes mechanical keyboard [TS]

  switches and they make blue ones red ones brown ones clear ones black ones [TS]

  and I think green ones and how to help you chose who enters descriptions of [TS]

  them and they play you go to the website and they have little sounds and you can [TS]

  listen to them but that listening to the click of a keyboard is nothing like [TS]

  actually using it [TS]

  couple of readers this is the follow-up couple of readers Senate that there's a [TS]

  company called I don't know how to pronounce it was d keyboards wasd [TS]

  keyboards and they know that the those are the the movement keys for like games [TS]

  like doom a Quaker if its a Mac man the plastic back non-mac shooter right I [TS]

  guess that's well contestants it's the bunch of guys I'm way back in the day [TS]

  and i'm blanking on your mind you know what's funny i did not i been so long [TS]

  since i was in the games I didn't realize that that's where they got the [TS]

  company name from but that is exactly what I'm guessing but are you right now [TS]

  is that city of you get their logo if you okay okay [TS]

  it makes no sense is the WASD keyboards they sell a product that is amazing it [TS]

  is called the wadi 6ki cherry MX which tester you pay 15 bucks and it it's not [TS]

  like an electrical device it's just like a piece of metal with one of each of the [TS]

  six types of switches on top and a clear handicapped and then that they also send [TS]

  you a pack of these o-ring dampeners they're just like little rubber band [TS]

  type things that you can optionally put into the key to sort of damping the [TS]

  cleanness the sound of it it's a 415 box it's a great thing I have no idea if I'm [TS]

  even going to buy one of these keyboards but I instantly bought this thing for [TS]

  fifteen bucks can get to do not however that marathon America just before [TS]

  syracuse it gets mad at me [TS]

  it was marathon right yeah anyway so sorry 15 bucks marathon was the only [TS]

  that was the last time I really got into a 3d game i was i was deeply obsessed [TS]

  with marathon cool and that was before the gaming part of my brain rot away [TS]

  anyway this sample kit highly recommend it i will put it in the show notes very [TS]

  fun if you're curious about the different types of key caps but it's [TS]

  also it makes a very fun in my opinion escort I like to just have it here now [TS]

  I've got a keyboard where I can just sit here and click keys and I'm not doing [TS]

  anything that's good i think what i like if I were going to buy one of these [TS]

  keyboards I think what I would get is the cherry brown switches probably with [TS]

  the the dampener in there and it feels to you go with the dampener interesting [TS]

  i think so it's very hard to tell i almost wish that I didn't have to choose [TS]

  whether i got the dampener [TS]

  you don't love about this it's a real nerd connoisseur kind of think like most [TS]

  people on earth do not care [TS]

  no but the people who care can't live like that you know like you you're gonna [TS]

  be pulling your hair out to make a decision to go with the damper or not [TS]

  yeah well and the other thing i found that and this was the company has a very [TS]

  good fact on their website so the other thing that I found out is that it's not [TS]

  quite the decision between these six key cap or keep switch colors isn't quite as [TS]

  complex as you think there's really only three types em the blue the brown and [TS]

  and i forget what the other one to default is I think it might be the black [TS]

  but the idea is that the or the red I guess the three main ones are the blue [TS]

  the brown in the red and then the other three each one of them corresponds to [TS]

  one of the other two and just requires a little bit more force to activate it has [TS]

  it has like a a spring that is more as more resistance so it takes a little bit [TS]

  more force to push it and restore when you're done pushing it will push the key [TS]

  back up faster apparently gamers a lot of gamers prefer the ones with more [TS]

  resistance because they feel like they can hit the key faster because it [TS]

  springs up a little bit faster [TS]

  that's interesting so the black one is the red with more resistance the clear [TS]

  one is the brown with more resistance and the green one is the blue with more [TS]

  resistance we go [TS]

  you learn something every day so what do you like about the elected to travel [TS]

  this sound is it's just as fabulous sounds like it's like an artifact if you [TS]

  actually liking to type on the thing right [TS]

  I it's just a tactile satisfaction [TS]

  it's at it's there's there's something satisfying to me about clicking an [TS]

  actual button [TS]

  yeah okay but more so than like but whatever i'm looking at now [TS]

  ok the apple magic they can't imagine keyboard [TS]

  yeah I know the standard apple keyboard like yeah they're called the magic [TS]

  keyboard to now okay [TS]

  which is not let these guys have like very little travel there basically [TS]

  laptop keyboard right but yeah with a little bit of extra travel just because [TS]

  a little bit yet nothing they can afford it [TS]

  space and I you know I will offer you know when I travel I don't take a [TS]

  mechanical keyboard with me i just typed on a macbook you know for as long as it [TS]

  takes I mean it's not like I'm a princess who can't sleep on a mattress [TS]

  if there's a very rare but i do feel the p.i just still sleeping together it's [TS]

  like okay I'm gonna deal with it anyway that's my follow-up i highly recommend [TS]

  hopefully elevate this company will be overwhelmed with requests from talk to [TS]

  your listeners spinal ease switch testers and like I said it's a very fun [TS]

  little desk tour in my opinion [TS]

  yeah i'm gonna probably check on her that's cool I I wanted to talk here so [TS]

  here's a piece from earlier this month that I specifically want to talk to you [TS]

  about because I feel like your sensibility would might be it you might [TS]

  have an interesting take on this earlier this month I'm during i forget which [TS]

  beta release but the betas for iOS and mac Sierra mac OS Sierra updated and one [TS]

  of the changes they made some changes to the emoji and the one that was [TS]

  controversial i wrote about it a lot of people wrote about it is that Apple [TS]

  change the it's called the pistol [TS]

  I mean what most people call it may be called the gun but like the official [TS]

  unicode name is pistol they changed it from a realistic revolver type gun to a [TS]

  toy like space on his stool [TS]

  oh no is it was a water pistol that's right to water it well looks like a [TS]

  water pistol to me and then whenever easier on interpretation now I think it [TS]

  definitely does when you make it big you can definitely see it's a water pistol [TS]

  it's microsoft that used to have his apt that's right yeah so they made it a toy [TS]

  waterproof jacket so where is it was it was the question energies well what do [TS]

  you what do you think about I mean to controvert the controversy is let me try [TS]

  to summarize that I'd say one angle on it is this is the nanny state this is [TS]

  Carter coddling us you know the whatever problems there are with real guns in the [TS]

  world [TS]

  the problem is when actual [TS]

  these are fired and actual bullets rip through actual human flash a picture of [TS]

  a cartoon picture of a gun that you send a text message is it is an abstraction [TS]

  and it's it would be you know what's the difference between not showing the emoji [TS]

  or not allowing you to type that character string g un in this i think [TS]

  that would be the expression that of the the opposition to this that I've seen [TS]

  and in the second opposition which is less politically charged it's more of a [TS]

  linguistic argument is if all other major platforms render this this code . [TS]

  as a realistic gun and I send a string of emoji that includes the gun it will [TS]

  have a different it could it could be interpreted as having a different [TS]

  semantic meaning on iOS and mac now compared to these other platforms [TS]

  yeah that I might think that everybody sees it as a squirt gun and I send it to [TS]

  you and which is harmless and gets white right everybody else is natural gun just [TS]

  not good right [TS]

  so to the first argument that's an argument for inaction [TS]

  yes you're right ok stupid emoji is not going to change anything and it the guns [TS]

  actually being fired in real life really do cause harm but I don't [TS]

  do that is an argument for why you must keep the pistols emoji to be I like a [TS]

  gun pistol like it that like a weapon rather than a squared missile you don't [TS]

  mean like it it's your the art that argument is one that you're conflating [TS]

  two different things and pistol isn't perfectly fine thing that you may want [TS]

  to represent an emoji [TS]

  ok maybe so also water pistol you may want to represent like there's no it [TS]

  it's purely politically-charged argument I i think at least um and I think [TS]

  probably because this comes on the heels of the rifle emoji being I rejected [TS]

  rejected right there was a proposal in the you know like every year there's [TS]

  there's some sort of process that the unicode consortium goes through where [TS]

  new characters are are suggested for emoji i guess for all of it unicode you [TS]

  know that there might be a you know some obscure language from a you-know-what at [TS]

  that small tribe in Asia or South America or something like that now add [TS]

  glyphs to support their language or something you know you can make all [TS]

  sorts of proposals unicode grows every year and one of the proposals that I [TS]

  guess was pretty far along was the rifle and some point last year Apple said we [TS]

  are not going to implement this whether it passes or not we're not going to [TS]

  implement it and yeah those apple said that it was dropped [TS]

  yeah was it Apple uniquely I don't think about it like Apple and Google Microsoft [TS]

  like now it might have not going to do it I did they might not have maybe Apple [TS]

  said at first and everybody was like yeah you know what we don't need this [TS]

  right I'll have to look that up but I didn't think United is certainly all the [TS]

  articles i've read sailors Apple but i don't know if it was just my Apple might [TS]

  have collected very least might have led the way [TS]

  yeah yeah that that was my understanding at least but they could be biased [TS]

  I'm okay with that do we really need a rifle energy and look I'm knotted at you [TS]

  know [TS]

  just did expose myself and clearly not a gun advocate and a but I do understand [TS]

  like why you made you know that there is a lot of really sensible and responsible [TS]

  gun owners out there i don't think we need an emoji you know is kind of [TS]

  worried where it goes doing here and one of the things that really bugged me [TS]

  about the pistol was like this smiley face with it with it is not next to [TS]

  hotel flight for the suicide [TS]

  yeah that's not cool that's not funny [TS]

  no that's like a real something that happens a lot [TS]

  there's what thirty thousand guns deaths in the u.s. each year long can a lot of [TS]

  those suicides i think that i think it's suicide is the most common or else it's [TS]

  a very very close [TS]

  yeah almost certain its most common yeah and I understand did these are goofy [TS]

  little things and you cracking job and you can do die in a fire [TS]

  the kc list as this all-time like he's got like a little the skull face and [TS]

  fire right and i like that apartment that is a horrible notion why would you [TS]

  understand is the phrase and i'd i'd look the other way but since we're [TS]

  bringing up the topic [TS]

  man that's that's harsh the suicide one is interesting and i am i'm talking from [TS]

  memory here so i might be wrong but I'm very very exclusive to certain that i am [TS]

  correct here that it is a leading form of suicide or maybe the and especially [TS]

  for men when you overwhelmingly choose to if they choose to often choose to use [TS]

  that the firearms and in countries where firearms have I australia is the great [TS]

  example because Australia's to have a gun culture very similar to the u.s. in [TS]

  terms of guns you know per population and after a massive back [TS]

  likely yeah cowboy culture yeah literally like very much the same kind [TS]

  of thing and after a mass shooting a terrible mass shooting I think in 1997 [TS]

  they legislated they did like a massive gun buyback where the government just [TS]

  bought back literally millions of guns [TS]

  I don't know what they did with the matter what they destroyed them . [TS]

  whatever but it is a great in terms of actually studying scientifically the [TS]

  effects of gun ownership it's a tremendous case study because it used to [TS]

  have lots of guns and now they have very few and in all sorts of guns are missing [TS]

  and it's not obviously the suicide rate by firearms did go down but actually [TS]

  this overall suicide rate went down because guns are particularly easy way [TS]

  to do it i mean i don't get too too dark here but yeah but I mean if you but [TS]

  there isn't having a bad day and you have access to something that right that [TS]

  you know it's going to do the job [TS]

  yeah it doesn't hold water to say that if you ban guns at suicide will stay the [TS]

  same because people want to kill themselves will just find another way [TS]

  it's actually there is statistical proof that I mean obviously some well but it's [TS]

  there's actually it's a it's just too easy and it's the other you know a [TS]

  terrible problem with it is that they're very effective they they work very well [TS]

  so a higher percentage of suicide attempts that are made with a with a [TS]

  firearm right [TS]

  actually you end up killing yourself as compared to the pills for example people [TS]

  who try to kill themselves by overdose there's a tremendous number of them who [TS]

  survived because they just pass out and somebody finds them and they get medical [TS]

  attention and it's a lot easier to recover from an overdose and it is to a [TS]

  a gunshot [TS]

  yeah well turns out a device made to kill things is good at killing things [TS]

  yeah I I'm not to be too man i'm gonna get some hate mail idol and lighting I [TS]

  don't see how that's AII don't see how what we're saying it it should be [TS]

  controversial right but i'm not saying that we should ban guns i'm not i know [TS]

  i'm not even making that you know I'm just saying it's the truth though that [TS]

  if you want to accept the gun culture that we have it's going to result in [TS]

  higher suicides and and much more effective [TS]

  yeah argument so and then Frank I mean obviously yeah i do advocate for some [TS]

  kind of change but i am i'm not like nobody should have any guns here that we [TS]

  have a lot of guns we don't have the same kind of crazy gun culture though [TS]

  that you know you can do it just what the current state of the US gun laws is [TS]

  kind of bananas [TS]

  I i am kind of fascinated by emoji there at first when I first thank you for [TS]

  getting us off about when they first became a thing I I you know I was a [TS]

  little skeptical i mean that I think anybody who knows my style can tell them [TS]

  a little you know I don't go for frivolous things I was never a fan I've [TS]

  never really made it very extensive use of like a ski smileys [TS]

  you know like colon dash in parentheses to make a smiley and that even in text [TS]

  messages to meet you don't do that right and I used to me maybe an aubergine [TS]

  every now an instrument but so I was never big on smileys and the first [TS]

  through the way that emoji sort of crept up on me was like with I message or what [TS]

  I chat i guess it used to be called at the time was there i think by default it [TS]

  would automatically turn certain character sequences into smileys [TS]

  and this was before we call them loads in there is a limited to i think that [TS]

  the set characters that came from a maximally like it was like an AOL [TS]

  instant messenger thing but different character sequences return in two [TS]

  different smileys and I turn that off on it but there are you know you'd run into [TS]

  them accidentally sometimes there were certain character sequences that you [TS]

  like if you're I don't know if you're pasting like source code or something [TS]

  like that to somebody you you know the semicolon and a thing would somehow turn [TS]

  into a smile and it wouldn't make any sense but once that you know the full [TS]

  emoji said I sort of you know I'm sort of fasting because i feel like people [TS]

  are expressing themselves in a way like I it must be like a field day to be like [TS]

  a linguistic researcher to study this because people take to them naturally [TS]

  you know and you mention Casey list you know who use you know like a idiot can't [TS]

  okay right i mean he's a very nice guy don't is verily in in written English [TS]

  he's barely literate [TS]

  I mean he is he is very you know it's very tough to make any heads or tails [TS]

  out of his writing in english prose but he can express himself fluently an emoji [TS]

  that's true that is the most true thing anybody's ever said about poor case [TS]

  lines [TS]

  and I think it's fascinating people who are good at and I use them i like it [TS]

  it's there certain ones that are very fun [TS]

  I i do think though i think it's interesting and I think that it is a [TS]

  form of real communication and it conveys emotion much better than prose [TS]

  especially in very short form [TS]

  I mean it's not surprised that they get mostly used in text messages in short [TS]

  text messages and Twitter Kenneth Anger yeah right and you know you can convey [TS]

  things like a you know if somebody says hey I got the job you know they've been [TS]

  you know trying to get a job at a place and they got it and you send them the [TS]

  two beers clinking emoji it it's a very very quick and efficient way of saying I [TS]

  ate congratulations and maybe hey let's meet up and you know have a beer and [TS]

  celebrate you can convey that we're on Karen graduation celebration like [TS]

  alright all-in-one yeah but they're totally good you there is to me all [TS]

  those even though i think it's i do think it's a serious form of expression [TS]

  to me they are inherently frivolous and that to me is where to meet taking out [TS]

  the realistic pistol is to me okay because i think that there is an [TS]

  inherent frivolousness to emoji and that their best used for and if you look at [TS]

  the most of them overwhelmingly there uh it they're mostly like expressing things [TS]

  that are either completely innocuous like strawberry or you know or like [TS]

  surfing right some weird random like the woman dancing or yeah it its which is a [TS]

  little weird because well they're finally expanding the female [TS]

  representation right but it [TS]

  yeah it's all happy and good and like a rifle and it at you know [TS]

  ok we're still it's an ill suited it's an ill suited language for expressing a [TS]

  negative that thanks [TS]

  in my opinion I i agree now that could just be because culturally that have [TS]

  been going up with guns and counter not a thing in my life maybe [TS]

  maybe a goofy pistol is funny and maybe and this is like maybe we're now doing [TS]

  the thing where eventually people look back at like looney tunes and like oh [TS]

  man I don't know we gotta cut a lot of these scenes right which I hated by the [TS]

  way but I mean we don't need a pistol pistol we got water pistols fine [TS]

  whatever you want to express with it as a joke with a pistol you can you can [TS]

  express the water they had it that i love the Looney Tunes Lincoln's were [TS]

  meet you and some horrible but they had an entire character you somebody Sam the [TS]

  entire basis of his character was that [TS]

  yeah yeah yes he was so gun-crazy they had two guns like one got wasn't enough [TS]

  here and say man I love that gay [TS]

  yeah and while you care to charity died in like every way possible [TS]

  no that was horrible it was your favorite who's your favorite moment all [TS]

  I'm blanking at the giant chicken [TS]

  foghorn leghorn recording like what this is why we are born like art is exact [TS]

  thank you for this is named this is why we're friends he was my absolute [TS]

  favorite he is [TS]

  I swear to God like a year ago maybe two years ago I can't remember i spent an [TS]

  entire night just watching pokémon like on YouTube like this is just the best [TS]

  while i was still big [TS]

  I don't always so very it was like 11 feet all [TS]

  yeah and yes i love it is like a total asshole to like the dog that's tied up [TS]

  like the dog this basically I guess mr. Lake your guard everything is tied up [TS]

  and all he does is like he wakes up in the morning and he goes and he stands [TS]

  just outside the line of where the dog's leash letting go and he just beats the [TS]

  dog into charging at him and then laugh at your house it is except i always [TS]

  loved foghorn leghorn he was definitely here and Chicken Hawk with the ad they [TS]

  added later was like teeny tiny yeah but he was like this like at [TS]

  you know like rough like you always want to get in a scrap can again I so good [TS]

  the other thing about the dog was that the dog was a worthy adversary [TS]

  oh yeah yeah he wasn't the dummy you just hide out past the time like what [TS]

  you gonna do [TS]

  apparently his name his name was just barnyard dog but it was spelled pawg dog [TS]

  they always get the southern drawl barnyard dog [TS]

  yeah that's the other thing I mean just fucking like an invoice with hilarious [TS]

  and the dog sometimes God look at delivery was got oh yeah yeah not even [TS]

  sometimes like it didn't know it seems like a fair fight to me [TS]

  yeah as opposed to like the Road Runner and wile e coyote yeah which is good to [TS]

  already is a bit of a tragic right he's kind of a tragedy no right to vote I [TS]

  would never do anything mean to learn i don't now we did he always more like [TS]

  David just backfire you know right and did you ever read the rules they were [TS]

  the their the written rules of the road round thinking eight years ago I have to [TS]

  put it up put it in the show notes but the rules are brilliant and it was it [TS]

  was almost like like writing the script for a roadrunner coyote short was almost [TS]

  like a logic puzzle because you had to follow this it's very very specific list [TS]

  of rules like an one of them there are things that I'd ever even really thought [TS]

  of was that one of them is that the roadrunner never leaves the road no [TS]

  matter what happens because because he's a roadrunner everything that ever [TS]

  happened in all of those coyotes wily coyote roadrunner shorts he never once [TS]

  left the road that I didn't even notice that that's kind of that make sense yeah [TS]

  that's great [TS]

  it's like well it's like the cartoon version of as mops three google yahoo [TS]

  bots yeah he's like you set up a structure and then you debug it [TS]

  basically by lake like your story is like well see how this winter huh yeah [TS]

  and i think one of the rules is that every bad thing that happens to the cody [TS]

  has to be his undoing [TS]

  I would totally yeah it seems dead I mean that's what I take away from it so [TS]

  because and he's not even a bad guy really well i guess he doesn't want to [TS]

  eat the roadrunner but I think he's just hungry [TS]

  he's hungry yeah I'm sorry he's gotta eat somethin I don't was I don't know [TS]

  any false off cliffs and get blowing up it's like Harlow the things that [TS]

  happened to her the worst like he falls off a cliff and then a giant boulder [TS]

  falls on her it's like as if that wasn't enough [TS]

  let me take a break and thanking our fee first sponsor it's our good friends at [TS]

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  mattress they they don't have to choose like what type of foam you want what [TS]

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  they've got one they they spent years they spent a lot of money they really do [TS]

  they have engineers who just went into what is the perfect default mattress it [TS]

  is a cut they ended up with a combination of springy latex and support [TS]

  of memory foam for sleep surface with just the right sink just the right bound [TS]

  so you don't have to choose who wants to do it's like you don't have to get like [TS]

  one of those six key cap testers for six types of mattresses from Casper they've [TS]

  got one type exactly what you want it's not like buying one of these mechanical [TS]

  keyboards one type of mattress you just pick the size and because they make them [TS]

  and I day manufacture them right here in in the united states they make them and [TS]

  sell them directly to you there is this is how they get away with charging but [TS]

  it in a lot of comparisons half the price of a premium mattress that you [TS]

  would buy at a mattress store most premium mattresses start at over 1,500 [TS]

  bucks Casper's started just 500 bucks for twin and they go up to just 954 a [TS]

  king 854 queen and they're made right here in America there's a cool thing to [TS]

  if you live in New York City and if you've ever seen pictures of this but if [TS]

  you live in New York City they deliver [TS]

  t on a bicycle there's the just I mean it is a big box to be carrying around on [TS]

  your back on a bicycle but you can get like same-day delivery in Manhattan [TS]

  maybe elsewhere in New York which is kind of amazing they show up in your [TS]

  house in these ridiculously small boxes big box that I probably the biggest box [TS]

  you'll get all year delivered to your house but considering that it contains a [TS]

  mattress it's remarkably small simple instructions on the box [TS]

  bring it up to the room bedroom where you going to put it open the box the [TS]

  right way and it just sucks all the oxygen out of the room and next thing [TS]

  you know you got a full size mattress they have this is the whole key to [TS]

  buying a mattress without trying it in a store or just taking you know the word [TS]

  for me John Q podcaster that these are good mattresses and they are very good [TS]

  mattresses but they have a hundred knight home trial so you buy it [TS]

  open it up sleep on it for three months and if you don't love it you just go on [TS]

  the web go back and end it with no questions asked no hard sell they don't [TS]

  like make you sit there and and and try to convince you to keep it they'll just [TS]

  say ok and they'll come and pick it up and you get your money back so I can't [TS]

  lose it is the easiest way to buy a mattress and you get a terrific matters [TS]

  so go to Casper calm / the talk show and remember that code the talk show and you [TS]

  will save 50 bucks on there already amazing prices so this is honestly not [TS]

  part of the page but they they started some dog beds etc I didn't know that how [TS]

  did not matter you because I'm muddy ended the water or something but yeah [TS]

  they started selling but our beds and that seems pretty cool to me [TS]

  yeah yeah well it seems you know similar kind of technology and you know like a [TS]

  good cover so the doctors just eat the whole thing right now it's pretty cool [TS]

  yeah your dog's gotta sleep somewhere yeah man just sleep on the best [TS]

  anything else I mean you don't want to go back to the emoji do I think we [TS]

  covered bad yet not all the second point was that at the interaural is [TS]

  operability yeah yeah we talked about that before but we would talk about a [TS]

  smiley face like the one with the teeth [TS]

  yeah Apple has a there's a it's like grimacing face training grinning face [TS]

  that looks almost exactly like their grimacing face except the eyes are [TS]

  different and on other platforms the grinning face is clearly somebody who is [TS]

  happy [TS]

  whereas the apple one really looks like somebody who was grimacing for whatever [TS]

  reason you know ya like like if i pick it out i pick it out because it looks [TS]

  like it's sucking teeth like yeah like it's like the face had the face you [TS]

  would make if you just talk bad about somebody and you found out there [TS]

  standing right behind you [TS]

  yes exactly yeah but that it's you know different platforms to enter them in [TS]

  different ways so thats up so yeah the water pistol doesn't convey the same [TS]

  notion and yes but it's it's fine i think it'll all get sorted out [TS]

  I think the other the other thing is a man put microsoft those guys they have [TS]

  an idea that every gun right and now did change it to a pistol the day that Apple [TS]

  change right leg water pistol i actually think and the worst part about that not [TS]

  only did they change it the wrong way at least just keep up with Apple to me [TS]

  yeah to to our taste well and not just our taste but it is true that the iphone [TS]

  is so singularly I our dominant popular enjoy yeah yeah that that Apple what [TS]

  Apple does you know their their their user base is you know arguably the [TS]

  leading at least in western the Western world is the leading use users of emoji [TS]

  so it really doesn't matter just proportionately what Apple does [TS]

  yeah i agree that right i mean for his big and it for as many you know tens of [TS]

  hundreds of millions of people are using windows and sending emoji on them [TS]

  there's more people using iOS devices [TS]

  yet you android is splintered because you know like Samsung has their own set [TS]

  you know different different android makers have their own sets of emoji they [TS]

  don't all just use the default google one so even though there might be more [TS]

  users of Android in you know quote-unquote android there's android is [TS]

  so splintered that it's just no single base the way that iOS does right Angela [TS]

  androids splintering is not help not helping in leg pic pic and metrics like [TS]

  pick some avenue that you want to talk about and like almost always like oh [TS]

  yeah but android is not one thing it's just right let's do it that's the best [TS]

  way to think about it though if you stop thinking about it as though it is one [TS]

  thing it's it's you know it makes more sense i do think I also think I [TS]

  personally I think Microsoft had a better idea [TS]

  yeah going with the Raygun than water gun because I think a water gun [TS]

  I I think 90-some percent of cases it won't make much difference but a water [TS]

  gun is a little bit so it's more specific where you could combine it with [TS]

  like the splashing water drops yeah right and then that will make any sense [TS]

  at all with other platforms [TS]

  whereas if you want with the Raygun I don't really think there's any context [TS]

  or you could use it with other emoji where it changes things that much [TS]

  yeah just sort of put some more frivolous spin on the idea of of a [TS]

  pistol [TS]

  yeah I actually I you know what I'm going to say i dunno but not sure thing [TS]

  no apps pretty sure aside but the water pistol emoji used to be flipped the [TS]

  other way [TS]

  yeah and apparently internally there was like before they shipped it was like [TS]

  going the other way [TS]

  so which would have really broken everything [TS]

  yeah because it would matter if you were saying you want to shoot shoot to the [TS]

  left to shoot right right and you're putting an emoji that's what you want to [TS]

  shoot you know [TS]

  yeah I actor I kind of like the fact that they made it the other way just [TS]

  because it literally breaks any of that Lake [TS]

  you're shooting at the one thing and that's a very personal political thing [TS]

  that I think it is smarter than they probably slipped back to the left at [TS]

  this point so at least faces the same way as all the other pistols and II i [TS]

  think i think Craig I think Hockenberry point this out is that the emoji spur [TS]

  emoji the unicorns back specifically mentions that it should be pointing one [TS]

  way yeah I think it does [TS]

  yeah we could say that's a bit Craig knows more about oh yeah [TS]

  emojis and will ever know because the icon factory has done the emoji sets for [TS]

  I think a couple of companies uh yea big companies [TS]

  yeah because everybody knows so they've done a lot of you know it as you might [TS]

  expect from a kind company entire name is based on drawing I kind favor is [TS]

  drawn a lot of emoji so turns out and Craig while he's not drawing the emoji [TS]

  is obviously the point person on making sure that all the yeah the hexadecimal [TS]

  code points in the etc are ok well he made his own internal awesome tool to of [TS]

  course it did to make this minus X i have course he did he was their finest [TS]

  right let us define so yeah so he made an awesome feel free [TS]

  yeah yeah alright moving on [TS]

  well what else can we talk about how about did you read the Steven Levy piece [TS]

  for back-channel with a profile of apples AI and quote unquote [TS]

  machine-learning work i did a little bit yeah / vetted haven't made all of the [TS]

  subsequent follow-up soufflé trying to frame it in different ways you know so [TS]

  that the just of it is that Steven Levy I think it's leave the honor of its levy [TS]

  Steven Levy i know i should know I information [TS]

  yeah and it also seems like smoke outta me [TS]

  oh he's been in the racket forever so right yeah as written some great great [TS]

  books including uh what was the name of the ipod both the ipod book was amazing [TS]

  oh yeah like I'm blanking perfect horrible names but he's written books he [TS]

  is written about cryptography he is you know again he's smart guys been around [TS]

  for write them if they die as long as I've been following and stuff he's being [TS]

  a go-to like yeah a name with trusting the ipod book was called the perfect [TS]

  thing [TS]

  oh cool that's good name yeah really was and so he was somehow obtained you know [TS]

  whether it was offered to him or whether it is him asking but is probably a [TS]

  combination of the two through apple PR was granted exclusive access to apples [TS]

  executive leadership in turn on on AI and machine learning and Cirie which is [TS]

  Eddy Cue and Greg federighi of course and then two other guys who one of his [TS]

  name is ever do remember is Tom Gruber which is just for the record no elec no [TS]

  relation and another guy whose name I escapes me but he's like in charge of [TS]

  the voice like the mob english i think na allergens case you're not sure I mr. [TS]

  joke because i'm looking for it and fucking funny too funny for anybody [TS]

  notice [TS]

  alex is 0 he's in charge of voice recognition i saw people complain that [TS]

  this was a quote-unquote a lot of people say it's a PR puff piece i saw the words [TS]

  PR puff piece at least I don't know 20 times in response to this and of course [TS]

  it there there's a certain truth to that in terms of its not like steven levy got [TS]

  free access for a year to just be a fly on the wall and watch the team work he [TS]

  you know he's not gonna happen he got like one day of access to what Apple had [TS]

  planned as almost you know like a presentation of here [TS]

  what we will reveal to you and talk to you about and so of course what Apple [TS]

  revealed and talk to about it was meant to you know make apple look good right [TS]

  there is no other way around but I mean the alternative is that Steven Levy [TS]

  declines to take to do the story and I feel like the world is a worse place i'm [TS]

  not saying that this is an accurate you know that it's not a slanted look at it [TS]

  it's obviously what Apple was willing to reveal but it's there's a lot of [TS]

  interesting stuff in it in the article i thought yeah I i agree with you [TS]

  there's a difference between being like a minion and reporting and letting [TS]

  everybody know the circumstances under which you sort of got the information or [TS]

  you have the conversations right you know i mean it's not like I think [TS]

  there's a false equivalence between [TS]

  I'm very carefully trying to pick number two but between sort of like a press [TS]

  that is very politically aligned and press that I get some kind of access and [TS]

  let you know they had that kind of access right and then tells you what was [TS]

  said right [TS]

  it's like the context of the access is right there in the story and you can get [TS]

  in judging you know be a critical reader and judge it for what you will [TS]

  exactly yeah no I mean that's the baseline always be a critical leader but [TS]

  Anna it especially with this current political cycle going on in in the US [TS]

  gauging like Beijing the press is like not it's not always easy but you [TS]

  shouldn't just throw everybody went in one bucket and be like well I don't [TS]

  believe anything [TS]

  did anybody says yeah and I he's very upfront and I think he makes it very [TS]

  clear exactly where the context was right and that that's that's what you [TS]

  need is it as it as an intelligent critical meter to to sort of make your [TS]

  decision right and it's not like if you read it and I read it I read it very [TS]

  thoroughly but it's not like Steven Levy was trying to make the argument that [TS]

  Siri is no perfect or even great or ahead you know far ahead of the [TS]

  competition [TS]

  Apple might be making that argument but and and he might you know quote them [TS]

  saying it but he's not you know like against even leaving has been around the [TS]

  block before I mean he's NEA is very very well sourced at Google in [TS]

  particular so he's you know and also steven levy is the type of guy who [TS]

  writes stuff that really stands up over time like the value of this article [TS]

  might be better ten fifteen twenty years from now than it is today in terms of [TS]

  looking at either where things went wrong for apple or where that you know [TS]

  the beginning of where things went right in there AI and you know [TS]

  yeah it's it's written for the long term yeah and you write about it he he vote [TS]

  in the Plex like a yep the book about and if anybody is looking for a book to [TS]

  be on a hot summer day in the plexes definite with reading right that's his [TS]

  is like inside looking at Google we have extensive and long-term access that he [TS]

  was ya like it ya like years us with reporting an ad like that's hard work [TS]

  and he did it so this interview or peace carries all the more weight because he's [TS]

  familiar with that both companies right and I think among people who like you [TS]

  know read our read our stuff listen to our shows you know people who are [TS]

  listening to us talk right now I feel like a is siri good bad mixed bag [TS]

  whatever is probably one of the most contentious you know I worry a lot [TS]

  I do [TS]

  that that that me in particular and and you know the type of people have in the [TS]

  show that we're all just preaching to the choir and that we agree on on so [TS]

  much of what's going on that what's you know what's the point [TS]

  I feel like that Siri and apples machine-learning efforts and stuff like [TS]

  that is a great point where there's i know that there are people listening [TS]

  right now to think series a big pile of dog shit now I and those are I think [TS]

  some of the people who are most frustrated with this article and think [TS]

  that it's a quote-unquote PR puff piece because how can this article keep going [TS]

  on and on and not saved that serious garbage because they for whatever reason [TS]

  they think serious garbage which I disagree with well that's two things [TS]

  here take yeah I don't [TS]

  you can just unequivocally say that that's that's a value judgment right [TS]

  except everybody ask a witch man that sounds like wishy-washy because yeah it [TS]

  could be purged but isn't not it you know the field it works i think people [TS]

  use it all the time it's in everything from the watch to now the mac but soon [TS]

  the maggots and beta at the apple TV on the iOS stuff working pretty well now [TS]

  does it answer everything perfectly [TS]

  no but I think it's more audacious I get it has it the aspirational goal is is [TS]

  higher than I think something like the Amazon echo is which is what it often [TS]

  gets compared to or you know what I don't hear a lot about now is google [TS]

  google now i just read a story that people of the Dead google made a change [TS]

  in a recent somehow recently and and made something that the change in google [TS]

  now has a lot of people upset i don't hear as much about that and I don't know [TS]

  why that is I don't know if it's because I don't read enough android stuff or [TS]

  maybe we should talk to her hey but you know [TS]

  well here's what I think I didn't have a chief this disc that goes unsaid in this [TS]

  article but i do feel that the disadvantage that google has with now [TS]

  and you know this might change coming up later this year because they pronounce [TS]

  their there echo like device the little home you know the home speaker system [TS]

  yeah but it is it this whole day I bought assistant type thing it it makes [TS]

  intuitive sense this is not a very profound observation but as we go on and [TS]

  live with these things it's shown to be more true is it can't be part of an app [TS]

  it has to be part of the system on the device [TS]

  yeah you have to be able to say hey dingus to your thing it's like going to [TS]

  open the google app on your iPhone first and then speaking into it you've already [TS]

  it it you know what's the point [TS]

  the whole point of the voice driven interfaces that you don't have to fish a [TS]

  nap out [TS]

  yeah I'm coming to think that maybe absolutely sir [TS]

  I not a dead end but it's like it's not a path for this sort of voice its kind [TS]

  of certainly not a path for this kind of thing right and we've had it for what 30 [TS]

  years now [TS]

  well we've invented since nineteen sixty-eight without ya [TS]

  oh so you mean there i just mean apps apps like I'm like you know maybe [TS]

  absolutely but that's that shouldn't be the focus you know and not necessarily [TS]

  do the open docx thing but we want when people have we're totally right with [TS]

  hell it's like it doesn't run apps right you don't ask a lake how launch the pod [TS]

  bay door app right word or and then launch the how lap and then talk to Al [TS]

  know it's just it's just there [TS]

  ok I you know that stupid pod bay door app should have been updated but before [TS]

  it before they went off to Jupiter is really should have like updated that [TS]

  sucker idea but I i just read an example here's a in my tweet and my Twitter [TS]

  replies to me and I won't call the guy out because i think you know he's not [TS]

  asking to be called a soccer route but it's there's a guide to send me a tweet [TS]

  what's group or what's with Apple doing a press victory lab lap I think he meant [TS]

  about how great they think serious its laughably poor compared to Eric anything [TS]

  else I I really disagree with that I think there are clearly areas where you [TS]

  know I i think what's interesting about this is that the big players in this are [TS]

  all better it they have it has different strengths and weaknesses [TS]

  yeah no yeah pretty cool right right in it i keep going back to i keep going [TS]

  back to a couple of examples i have an amazon echo in here and in the kitchen [TS]

  and i barely use it big but i think i've used it more if we had more the home [TS]

  automation stuff that you can hook up to it like turning the light on stuff but [TS]

  did you buy that or did you know I bought them have ok sorry that's a weird [TS]

  question but I'm trying to gauge your engagement with it I guess [TS]

  yeah yeah but for example you if you ask the the echo and alexa anything about [TS]

  the weather [TS]

  all you get is the exact same can weather report for where you are so if [TS]

  you say something [TS]

  what's what's the weather you get you get a weather report looks like the [TS]

  expected highs and lows and whether it's going to rain and if you say what is the [TS]

  current temp [TS]

  nature instead of giving you the temperature you get the exact same [TS]

  weather report if you say what just can't let temperature go man i know i [TS]

  can't let it get that is in celsius or fahrenheit it's in Fahrenheit now well [TS]

  so at least you know on the good side although I wonder what would happen if [TS]

  if I just said to you know hey dingus [TS]

  I please please give me the temperature in Celsius instead of Fahrenheit from [TS]

  now on I wonder if that would work i'll have to try that but I if you ask for [TS]

  the humidity you get the weather report and it the the weather report doesn't [TS]

  even include the humidity [TS]

  yeah so it understands that you asking about the humidity is you asking about [TS]

  the weather but the answer is just the same exact word for word can weather [TS]

  report if you ask Siri those questions you get the actual answer if you ask for [TS]

  the temperature you just get the temperature if you ask for the weather [TS]

  you get a full weather report and i even tried asking for the humidity and it and [TS]

  Siri can tell you the current humidity so there's an area where i could say [TS]

  unambiguously serious better than Alexa and on sports is another example where [TS]

  Alexa can tell you some basic stuff about sports and like scores and stuff [TS]

  like that but Siri can tell you things like the Vegas betting odds and who's [TS]

  favored in a game I mean as yeah is that a big difference [TS]

  I mean for me it is cuz I'm again but ya know i think it is i mean it it could [TS]

  somebody can check e what you tweet that on drinking on gamble it on there not [TS]

  only vices [TS]

  yeah buying a new iphone every year and that lying about drinking him put it [TS]

  that's still fun is what it's a pretty clever little logical yeah the guy was [TS]

  like man I was cracking up under it [TS]

  um yeah I know I I think Cirie is seems to have a broader area that it aspires [TS]

  to cover and perhaps in some place that does it doesn't cover it as well as what [TS]

  the more focused things do which is interesting because Apple typically [TS]

  narrows things down to the solvable problems right right [TS]

  but in the case of Syria seems like they're gone deep like that it's [TS]

  interesting because they they also bought at the company that made series [TS]

  so it could be a cultural divide a little bit they're reaching I don't know [TS]

  but it's possible because you would think that apple would be shipping [TS]

  something like the echo which does weigh less but when you ask you to do [TS]

  something does it right and instead they've got this thing do when he asked [TS]

  you to do something it will make a best effort to answer any spoken question and [TS]

  give you a good like a good answer [TS]

  yes i can you wrap your head around how hard that is it is I couldn't do that [TS]

  well I mean as I mean like five of things that series could help you with [TS]

  anything like I have no idea i think all of us who've ever programmed it really [TS]

  started programming as a kid you know i have written tried to write like you [TS]

  know like a two German adventure type it you know thing you know at least in the [TS]

  days when starting the program menu around like a little command line and [TS]

  you just build up a list of if-then statements right what the yeah [TS]

  Yeah Yeah right and that it doesn't work like you have to have like an exact [TS]

  match for every single yes every single anyone and they're gonna do that is [TS]

  tedious but that's not how Siri we're now at all [TS]

  yeah well and they're you know they're very very ambitious about it I mean and [TS]

  you can have examples of things that work we're in this in this story the [TS]

  Steven Levy story and eq shows that with integrating with square cash where he [TS]

  says send you swear cash to send Jane twenty dollars and it [TS]

  serie interpreted and open square the square cash app to send his wife twenty [TS]

  dollars and he says it differently said shoot twenty dollars to to my wife you [TS]

  know he can call her Jane he can call his wife he can say send twenty dollars [TS]

  he can say shoot twenty dollars i mean shoot twenty dollars is actually [TS]

  linguistically is pretty advanced it if it you know that I ya know yeah I would [TS]

  never say that but I could see somebody like I would understand it if somebody [TS]

  told me that everybody get it send them money if I don't even know how many of [TS]

  those things were like why even me as being generally on the you know I'm on [TS]

  the positive end of the spectrum of where I think series I've and i know [TS]

  that a lot of people aren't but i am i'm a fan and I think they're doing well [TS]

  even I might be under estimating like I wonder if you can like tell Siri like to [TS]

  get my wife on the horn like wouldn't know that you mean one that's gonna get [TS]

  that's like that's like Trapper John in math because I would never think that I [TS]

  would never think to try that with a computer [TS]

  oh well now my dad says that all the time my dad I probably says get somebody [TS]

  on the horn more than even says I talked to him on the phone i love that [TS]

  expression i really love that expression that's old-school you would like my dad [TS]

  I'm sure yeah we should come but you come to a family gathering [TS]

  exactly yeah I know like yeah that is awesome especially the people like [TS]

  because it it it evokes the old-school headsets right we have to pick it up and [TS]

  like there's no buttons on it's just a horn kind of stick to it and all right [TS]

  why here's the big question i have is why does this article exist why did [TS]

  Apple agreed to to give leavey access to write this article I don't know they [TS]

  seem to have been on Pier blitz recently [TS]

  yeah definitely I mean it's definitely I the bit you know big picture answer is [TS]

  this is part of the new Oh more open Tim Cook's Apple this is part of the Apple [TS]

  where Craig federighi and phil schiller go on the show and yeah Craig federighi [TS]

  goes deep on stage in front of a live audience on the direction of privacy [TS]

  which is a big part of the same story [TS]

  oh yeah he had the differential privacy is a huge part of this way i right [TS]

  learning thing I don't know all Apple but old Apple not only wouldn't show up [TS]

  on Joe random podcast and talk about it in front of a live audience they [TS]

  wouldn't talk about for the party . i'll write it is . you're not Joe and podcast [TS]

  i know i know but it's they wouldn't have gone on my podcast six seven eight [TS]

  years ago and talked about this and they wouldn't have talked in detail about how [TS]

  it worked you know that they they didn't talk about some of how anything works [TS]

  perfectly right right that would have just been part of the black box [TS]

  yes no they would never talk about that that shocked me actually they get your [TS]

  gear and a bad way i was happy for you bit like the access that you got was a [TS]

  pretty surprising it's definitely but maybe it shouldn't be you know i think [TS]

  that the fact that they're talking to steven lee shouldn't be surprising on i [TS]

  think that one of the aspects of Tim Cook's Apple the new open apple that is [TS]

  different from steve jobs is old Apple isn't just that they're open for the [TS]

  sake of openness I think it is very specific and i think it is that they [TS]

  will they wish to be better understood as a company and when they perceive that [TS]

  they are being misunderstood or that the conventional wisdom about [TS]

  x within Apple is wrong they want to do what they can to correct that whereas i [TS]

  feel like with jobs it was like if I really do I mean this is a little [TS]

  flippant but I really think that with we understood jobs it was like well [TS]

  everybody thinks we're blank but we're not and he's adding jobs his attitude [TS]

  was well screw I don't know who gives you know who gives a crap if they [TS]

  understand this or not or maybe it's even better for misunderstood because [TS]

  you know that nobody's gonna see is coming right everybody wants to treat [TS]

  this like the dummy [TS]

  well right we'll just taking charge yeah will show ya [TS]

  whereas I feel like Apple Tim Cook's apple is frustrated by being [TS]

  misunderstood and seeks to correct it and in this case I believe that they are [TS]

  frustrated with the conventional wisdom that apple doesn't get AI may not even [TS]

  care about it and that they are that the while the rest of the industry led by [TS]

  Facebook and Google and perhaps Microsoft are racing ahead on this stuff [TS]

  Apple is going to be left behind with you know pieces of glass that you touch [TS]

  whereas everybody else is moving towards a ipod and i think apple is saying no we [TS]

  are deadly sir we are different we are different into two big regards which I [TS]

  forget to but we are deadly serious about this and we think we're doing [TS]

  pretty well [TS]

  hey I do that I feel like they want to color that and so here's a here's a [TS]

  paragraph from the story I want to get off but one of the differences between [TS]

  Apple and other companies here is that i read from leaving the factory doesn't [TS]

  say that this approach might be a necessity apples penchant for secrecy [TS]

  puts it at a disadvantage against competitors who encourage their star [TS]

  computer scientist too widely share research with the world what our [TS]

  practices tend to read this is federally talking our practices tend to reinforce [TS]

  a natural selection bias those who are interested in working as a team to [TS]

  deliver a great product versus those whose primary motivation is publishing [TS]

  so back to steven lee BF while improving an apple product scientists products [TS]

  product scientists happen to make breakthroughs in the field that's great [TS]

  but says neq but we are driven by a vision of the end result and I think [TS]

  that what they're getting at here is that the researchers communion in the [TS]

  larger community who are largely focused on publishing see Apple as out of it [TS]

  because Apple is nobody from apple is publishing yeah [TS]

  I think the security area [TS]

  add this one . yes yes definitely that Apple was out of the outside the [TS]

  mainstream on in the security industry because they weren't participating in [TS]

  right yeah and I don't they didn't answer you know you'd send in [TS]

  right yeah and I don't they didn't answer you know you'd send in [TS]

  they didn't give the day they were even they were even dinged for not giving [TS]

  credit to people for when they'd fix the bugs and yeah odd which probably they [TS]

  should have ended they do now and that's another example that's changed that the [TS]

  head applehead chief engineer for security [TS]

  he's a black hat recently right and gave a very well-regarded talk like it's been [TS]

  a couple years since Apple had spoken at black hat and the last time they did it [TS]

  was sort of panda because it was deemed a insufficiently detailed you know that [TS]

  it was just sort of painting and broad strokes whereas this talk that the guy [TS]

  gave you know last month at black hat was very detailed about some things and [TS]

  that's where they introduced the new bug bounty program you know but talked about [TS]

  unencrypted Colonel caches like he did me whatever topic was on the table for [TS]

  Apple security they they were he was on it he was might just make it great [TS]

  like these people are brilliant like they're in they're not dummies with the [TS]

  proof [TS]

  so that i really do think that like serious academic research is best shared [TS]

  so they it can be checked right because that's how science works [TS]

  I I kind of agree with the fact that like say well we're going to build [TS]

  something and then we're going to ship it and then you can judge it by its [TS]

  merits I appreciate that approach because all of the mistakes and stuff [TS]

  along the way maybe interesting but it's what you actually get to that it is the [TS]

  it's the goal it is the you know it's the thing that everybody body should be [TS]

  finally believe this article rather than on mistakes and these articles even [TS]

  mentions that Apple is making an exception to it that the general you [TS]

  know we don't really publish papers about the work we do we just use it to [TS]

  make great products are making an exception on differential privacy which [TS]

  they consider to be such a breakthrough and such a big part of what they're [TS]

  doing that they don't you know they're there [TS]

  yeah they are having their research behind it published what they're doing [TS]

  because they want everybody else to get on board with it is where it's not just [TS]

  that it's the confession thing that they did last year [TS]

  it's got so much open source stuff going on like WebKit open source right from [TS]

  the OS difficult on the color but there is chrome OS I don't mean yeah throw a [TS]

  scrum browser it's a WebKit that's being hacked a lot but I mean that's apples [TS]

  stuff right since 97 97 apple has been releasing huge chunks of open-source [TS]

  software well [TS]

  chrome is a perfect example of uh why some people would argue you know against [TS]

  open sourcing stuff because it's you know it it it isn't the you know [TS]

  quote-unquote worst-case scenario where you're just think that Apple did WebKit [TS]

  and put all this work into and Google used to be an active participant in in [TS]

  submitting patches to WebKit and in a certain point google and apple had [TS]

  enough differences in the future of WebKit were google said we're going to [TS]

  fork this and what are they called anyone blank is is winning there [TS]

  but blank was at you know when it blank started was just a copy and paste of [TS]

  WebKit and then if you know when it's they want their different ways [TS]

  ya hear well I mean the process models but it might be a friend like the [TS]

  whatever but so anything you know but a thing that was an apple led project [TS]

  WebKit now serves as the foundation for an entire competing operating system you [TS]

  know that it really does compete against apple like an education where where I [TS]

  think chrome is beyond Chromebooks are probably the dominant device and [TS]

  education which is the argument that somebody would make against [TS]

  participating in over a corporation participating in open source is that hey [TS]

  our competitors can take our work and use it against us and that you know yeah [TS]

  I think Melton has had heard both sides of the head sewed on melton at mutual [TS]

  friend is being on my show couple times he started WebKit and he's asked me if [TS]

  it can go either way [TS]

  like 11 month they're like what the fuck why like these people just taking our [TS]

  work and then like another month psychologist building it could [TS]

  good choice alright so i don't i really don't know it's probably somewhere in [TS]

  the middle but I mean I IV opinion and like both the mock Colonel right and he [TS]

  came over with next and apples being open sourcing a lot of our stuff for [TS]

  years like at this point 20 years [TS]

  no and I think [TS]

  it's kind of the right thing to do I think they're making the right choice [TS]

  it's it's weird because there's a new apple kind of thing that came in with [TS]

  you know like when next came in that had a fair amount of academic or academia [TS]

  feeling to it at least certainly there was something into the academic model [TS]

  market at I mean a ship-to-ship the collective works of Shakespeare for [TS]

  crying out loud like nobody wants that on their own computer unless you're in [TS]

  academia but i think that has kind of permeated the culture to a certain [TS]

  extent but what they don't do is share user-facing mark right like to you know [TS]

  the windows server app kid uikit well on a none of that is open to the public and [TS]

  that's because that's where the value is like and there are right to protect it [TS]

  and so with Siri I think that they're putting that in the same bucket that's [TS]

  that's where the interface with the user right what's Apple good at which the [TS]

  value interfacing with the user why you know why they kind of made up all the [TS]

  papers about exactly how they do it [TS]

  yeah so one of the things that the the leavey article mentions and there's even [TS]

  a quote from somebody is that the people like leading leading minds in the AI [TS]

  community or like well who are the top five you know who among the top five [TS]

  brains and AI does apple have owners staff and you know show means a lot of [TS]

  skepticism one of the internet to me one of the interesting things was that the [TS]

  federal he said that a lot of their people who are doing this machine [TS]

  learning don't really come from the AI background here's the quote we hire [TS]

  people who are very smart and fundamental domains of mathematics [TS]

  statistics programming languages cryptography it turns out a lot of these [TS]

  kinds of core talents translate beautifully to machine learning [TS]

  so its people you know that and at you know it too if you're smart and you're a [TS]

  good programmer you could be you can do all sorts of things right like yeah you [TS]

  know I know guide night you you know just do a lot of graphics programming [TS]

  for games [TS]

  oh yeah yeah and then he you know there's other things as well that was [TS]

  used since technically right but so yeah I think you would agree with me that I [TS]

  you know firsthand that you know you'd you can come at you can enter a new [TS]

  field and programming and be good at it get up to speed just because it's a lot [TS]

  of this stuff is it doesn't have to be its own domain yes i agree i think and i [TS]

  really like is it I actually really do give you but I'm going to do the devil's [TS]

  advocate thing I think the idea is that the backend knowledge in the way to [TS]

  structure and machine learning from system accepting input from billions of [TS]

  sources and then kind of learning from that is not knowledge that is in terms [TS]

  of apple at this point and I think that's a given i don't know if it's true [TS]

  and I do know that this differential privacy thing and it's probably gonna [TS]

  make it harder and I like it is going to make it harder because they're trying to [TS]

  take the prioritizing privacy [TS]

  yeah i think it and that's I think that secondarily i think that is one of the [TS]

  reasons Apple wanted this you know participated in this article is that [TS]

  they want to push back hard on the notion that the one way to do this [TS]

  machine learning style features you know they're exposed to end-users is by [TS]

  collecting tons of data and doing it all [TS]

  server-side that you can you know apples that this is one route way that Apple is [TS]

  clearly going against the way that Facebook and Google work but of course [TS]

  that's the way facebook and google work is because they are fundamentally [TS]

  server-side companies right yeah [TS]

  an apple is fundamentally a device company but Apple is effectively doing a [TS]

  lot of this stuff [TS]

  in parallel by having each and every individual device do the work and you [TS]

  know that explicit in the article will leave you where a lot of this data is [TS]

  staying on the device and therefore all of the you-know-what AI style analysis [TS]

  of it is doing it on the device so like the face detection in the photos happens [TS]

  on the right place [TS]

  yeah i mean i think the obvious assumption is that if you had a personal [TS]

  system they could do everything did [TS]

  no sirree or like that the ultimate version of Siri like that the best [TS]

  personal assistant you could ever have [TS]

  obviously they're going to know everything about you because they need [TS]

  to in order to do their job and that's true for a person but I don't know if [TS]

  that needs to be true for like a system more like an eight-second artificial [TS]

  intelligence [TS]

  it seems like to the way to go just because we can rationalize about that [TS]

  like cable if I tell this person every little detail know they can you know how [TS]

  try to help me but i don't i don't know if that's the only way they're like this [TS]

  problem honestly this probably some article mathematical proof that you [TS]

  could you could work out this rate like you could throw information at a thing [TS]

  did it that is obscured in some way and it could come back with answers litter [TS]

  like incredibly accurate but they still can reason about you as a whole which is [TS]

  where I think apples turn ago [TS]

  yeah and you know we're skating to where the puck is going [TS]

  I mean it's not like apples gonna stick with the a9 system-on-a-chip and that [TS]

  there's not going to be in a 10 in a 11 a-12 and that these chips are going to [TS]

  keep getting faster and faster and faster I mean five six years from now [TS]

  we're going to have iphones that make the current iphones look like you know a [TS]

  joke in terms of the computational power and it's just one of those things that [TS]

  the phone is going to have you know it's going to be easier and easier I think to [TS]

  do advanced computational work [TS]

  unless you two headphone jack [TS]

  anyway I don't think I have anything else on this steven lee article but I [TS]

  don't think it should be dismissed yes read it with a you know read it with an [TS]

  open mind and understand that you know this is exactly what Apple presented [TS]

  steven levy but I think there's a lot of interesting stuff to groc from that [TS]

  yes I totally agree with you alright let me take a break and sponsor it's our [TS]

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  eyeglasses prescription eyeglasses it's just 95 bucks and that includes the [TS]

  prescription lenses they don't upsell you on the coatings and stuff like that [TS]

  the anti-glare and anti-scratch you just get them you get anything you want [TS]

  there's no upsell at last time I about classes and glasses store to end up [TS]

  spending twice the money from the starting point just to get the coatings [TS]

  that you want on the glasses they also have a titanium collection that starts [TS]

  at just 145 dollars including lenses with premium Japanese titanium and [TS]

  French non rocking screws even sweat the detail down to what type of screws they [TS]

  use all warby parker classes include the anti-reflective and anti-glare coatings [TS]

  they also include excellent cases I've really vouch for the case it's great [TS]

  cleaning cough cloth no extra charge [TS]

  so whether your eyesight is pretty good absolutely abysmal warby parker has you [TS]

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  you can get my glasses reading glasses sunglasses whatever kind of classes you [TS]

  need you just go there you pick like five of the ones that you do you're [TS]

  interested out [TS]

  give me your address and like in two days [TS]

  there's a box at your door and you try them on at home that they don't have [TS]

  your lenses and yet they're just you know like dummy lenses you have five [TS]

  pairs you can try mon look in the mirror [TS]

  I you know get the people in your family to tell you which ones look good [TS]

  I pick the one you like order it I don't get it to within 10 business days [TS]

  usually even faster and then they have free return label you just put the [TS]

  samples back in the box but the return label on and boom [TS]

  back off to war Parker it goes so it's easy to buy them easy to shop no [TS]

  pressure and then p02 Warby Parker . com / the talk show i'm reading this these [TS]

  notes while I'm wearing a pair of warby parker eyeglasses as as we speak very [TS]

  good stuff I i need glasses man i have glasses but they look me that they make [TS]

  me look like a serial killer from like the nineteen eighties do hope you would [TS]

  say it is to be four years there will be I don't feel like you know I know but [TS]

  I'm gonna do it I'm gonna do it and I this is I feel like I'm pimping your [TS]

  dad's a little tonight but like Warby Parker just make me like oh yeah just [TS]

  actually go on that website and get some glasses you know what i would say this [TS]

  about the warby parker thing about them having the load that these $95 starting [TS]

  point is that you can buy it without feeling you know if you go to like a [TS]

  regular glass door in there like five or six hundred dollars you feel like okay [TS]

  I'm gonna buy a pair of eyeglasses and then these are my glasses for the next [TS]

  few years with warby parker it is so much easier to buy like two or three [TS]

  pairs and not feel like you're a profligate and you can either buy two or [TS]

  three pairs and have them so that they are different and you can have like you [TS]

  know minimal glasses and and pick black glasses whatever on different looks or [TS]

  just to have them laying around so that if you do you know if they're more like [TS]

  that reading glasses you can keep apparently office and keep repaired you [TS]

  know downstairs and that it's so much better at that price but I used to be [TS]

  like when I was growing up my first classes it was like I got one pair of [TS]

  glasses and that was it and don't break that was it yeah me too i look like a [TS]

  serial killer idea i picked them myself and i thought they're like silver and [TS]

  they kind of their eating them but they can't like lean in a little bit like I [TS]

  look crazy [TS]

  I look like I'm gonna murder you no more than usual and actress i gotta let go [TS]

  again but yes i bought these one pair of glasses and I can be I can do my job [TS]

  fine but I mean distances [TS]

  like I can't believe my TV at this point that they don't like I guess what shows [TS]

  on like I guess what the names of shows or episodes are based on like what's [TS]

  most likely which is probably not the moment the way the most people actually [TS]

  read the world and like this is probably the most likely you should probably get [TS]

  your eyes checked a little bit so Tim Cook has been CEO now 45 years as of two [TS]

  days ago he has been the CEO of Apple for five years so there's a couple of [TS]

  people commemorating that with you know what's what are the five years can cook [TS]

  like I think that that was the basis that was a really long interview with [TS]

  Tim book in The Washington Post that [TS]

  yeah they asked the 13th i was about two weeks ago actually not quite sure that [TS]

  that was time to be with the five-year thing but might as well be i will put a [TS]

  link to that interview yeah i think so i like it is really good [TS]

  yeah it's so long and I was actually a I was actually on a brief vacation with my [TS]

  folks at the time and so I actually didn't finish reading it until today [TS]

  actually which is why I haven't liked to it on daring fireball [TS]

  yeah you should quit thinking find out but now two weeks late but ok you're [TS]

  always late now it's typical for me it wasn't her it was very interesting and [TS]

  it's it a lot of it is stuff that i already knew about tim cook but some of [TS]

  it was insightful and they asked one of the questions they asked that I've seen [TS]

  people ask about but nobody asked him was whether or not he thinks that [TS]

  growing up gay in a the us-south in Alabama did that make him is that did [TS]

  that fuel his focus on privacy right you know and that he was a great question [TS]

  it is a great question it was very well worded and in short I don't want you [TS]

  know you should read his article i want to read the whole thing but in short he [TS]

  says know that in two separate things that it did that obviously his [TS]

  upbringing was you know everybody's upbringing informed who they are as an [TS]

  adult but in this particular case on the issue of privacy he believes that it is [TS]

  fundamental to [TS]

  the United States and edits as much a part of you know the founding of this [TS]

  country is the freedom of speech and freedom of religion that you have a [TS]

  right to privacy and that he believes they asked so strongly that it has you [TS]

  know but who knows maybe he's you know it you know i don't know i don't know [TS]

  but i don't want to give that one hundred percent yeah and just to get [TS]

  manic hate him that I'm gonna do this but just to get back to the gun rights [TS]

  thing is like first you should be concerned about privacy attract that [TS]

  then you won't need a gun that's it protect yourself from whatever the hell [TS]

  you think you're going to protect yourself from but yeah and now I I I [TS]

  told they gave them and and for a long time I did key and I had my own [TS]

  narrative that I'm like well he's like a gag growing up in the South that's gotta [TS]

  suck i'm given his age and all that right things are different now [TS]

  I hope and father certainly better i think i don't think anybody would deny [TS]

  think that you know that no matter how whether it's still is problematic or not [TS]

  probably i would guess that'd be probably really problematic and like [TS]

  hopefully hopefully the worst that's happening is arguing about who's going [TS]

  to make a wedding cake right when it used to be like you just may get [TS]

  murdered right so hopefully but you know you know just [TS]

  change take some kind of time so at so yeah that would have been what I would [TS]

  have thought but I like the center of a lot it's just like now this is a [TS]

  fundamental it's the fundamental freedom and you know again hurted it's hard to [TS]

  not get behind right [TS]

  I you know na you have to he's a very careful speaker it's you know as he [TS]

  needs to be and they even address that that that he was one of the things he's [TS]

  surprised by is he thought he would operate a little under the radar because [TS]

  he thought that the attention Steve Jobs Scott was because you know steve jobs i [TS]

  left at court and that it didn't come with the job but that is wrong that [TS]

  being the CEO of Apple brings an intense scrutiny to everything you say and do [TS]

  that that he didn't quite anticipate because he really thought it was Steve [TS]

  and not that's the chair as he calls it [TS]

  yeah I think he's partially right like a lot of it was just cuz jobs like of jobs [TS]

  and quit apple and went somewhere else which they can't even imagine having but [TS]

  if you had people would still be following jobs right that's what Apple [TS]

  at this point apple is huge right leg [TS]

  yeah is that like the hot seat is not just Steve anymore its it you want it [TS]

  worked [TS]

  you're now you're you know you know now you're gonna have weird pieces written [TS]

  about you that you don't like you are unsure that store saying or like you say [TS]

  something in somebody's going to take it the wrong way [TS]

  yeah i really don't envy that kind of scrutiny [TS]

  it is weird though I mean and you know I don't do I don't write like the [TS]

  five-year commemorative piece you know I tend not to do those sort of anniversary [TS]

  type things but it is still fun to think about and it is weird to me to think [TS]

  that he's been CEO for five years now just as a point of reference like like [TS]

  the thing that made me go like woe is I've been writing daring fireball since [TS]

  2002 actually august 2002 so exactly 14 years so over a third of the time I've [TS]

  been doing during fireball has been apple has been under tim cook that's [TS]

  kind of crazy to me like it is that is case in my gut it doesn't feel that way [TS]

  it doesn't feel like it still feels like the Tim Cook era is new and that I've [TS]

  spent most you know it's true if still spent two-thirds of the time but yeah [TS]

  give it another five years and it'll be half the time [TS]

  half the time I've been doing this Tim Cook's been in charge yeah yeah I feel [TS]

  the same way about well first of all when at Tim Cook was there for five [TS]

  years I realize it like I've known you way too long and I should spend some [TS]

  time funny better friends because I like we've been friends for a long time when [TS]

  Tim Kirk took over [TS]

  it's just I feel like I'm wasting my life here yeah the other thing [TS]

  the other thing is a is his tenure was so questioned at first but I mean if you [TS]

  look at i was at harvest that posted the charts with something like I'm sure he's [TS]

  supposed to start strictly for a horse the gym is all we do is get it wakes up [TS]

  and he's gonna charge and yeah but now I Tim Cook's mean like killing it for the [TS]

  first five years of adverse is a 10-year and CEO of Apple I'm and I don't think [TS]

  he's doing it in the same with honor did this bar also had great results yes but [TS]

  it was more like doubling down and whatever it already existed and in a way [TS]

  kind of writing out the wave of success of Microsoft for a while [TS]

  yeah who I honestly these days [TS]

  ok i just do better guys everybody then I am actually like a Microsoft [TS]

  cheerleader at this point like get I want them to do well I'm right here [TS]

  yeah i think that the biggest mistake under bomber Emil again we get paid to a [TS]

  whole show about that but yeah it's the biggest mistake was missing out on [TS]

  mobile and it's again i've said this many times where any laughed about it [TS]

  which i think is unfair like that thing where he's laughing off the iphone right [TS]

  I but I that's what he's doing an interview and use a boisterous [TS]

  over-the-top kind of guy like I kind of get the feeling though that in that [TS]

  video where he laughs about the iphone that it doesn't have a keyboard at six [TS]

  hundred dollars and how you're gonna do work without a keyboard you know its [TS]

  meaning laughs I know it is his personality and of course he's not going [TS]

  to say very good things about it but I do feel though that the way he he he [TS]

  his attitude in that video to me indicates that he didn't even privately [TS]

  didn't get it he didn't look at the iphone and think oh fuck this is amazing [TS]

  and we don't have any that we are [TS]

  what and I do believe that he should that CEO of Microsoft should have been [TS]

  able to look at the iphone and say that first iphone and say oh we are screwed [TS]

  but it's if you read the the great was Andy the great book by the guy from the [TS]

  original Macintosh team and here's felt any hearts flowers candy and not go i [TS]

  know that was in your field [TS]

  yeah and he not go as a gay guy revolution in the valley and then he's [TS]

  also in most of those stories are also on his great website folklore . org ok [TS]

  that's a great say oh my god it's amazing but i like it in the book I like [TS]

  the book better but if you're going to cheapskate and we're free [TS]

  I he tells the story he was there in the room when when Bill Gates first saw a [TS]

  Macintosh and it was still prototype and what he gets was specifically obsessed [TS]

  about was the way that the mouse pointer moving on screen was so smooth that the [TS]

  animation was so smooth because I all other previous attempts at that there is [TS]

  I I don't know what the details of how Apple did that what what the trip was [TS]

  but there was some serious trickery going on that make these days is done in [TS]

  hardware I back then no like you'd have to you draw they did the thing [TS]

  underneath like your mouse was there and you would move it and then you'd have to [TS]

  be driving it where it was right and that's like that on those kind of [TS]

  computers at that time that was hard like it you know right if a big deal if [TS]

  you didn't do something special [TS]

  the mouse movement on all other systems that mouse the mouse moved very jerkily [TS]

  that's just real jerky and it on the Macintosh even know that the hardware [TS]

  was by today's standards almost laughably you know minimal you know [TS]

  hundred 128 kilobytes of RAM yeah oh yeah we're going to 128 k 1 the facts [TS]

  into anything them had been the pentax might have been the fact that it's just [TS]

  as laughably smokes local also the other one would have been like 64k [TS]

  back i could be wrong on that circuit so yeah I think the last 25 years is but i [TS]

  think the fat man li di and I think the original was 128 yeah I don't think they [TS]

  ever ship 264 came back it was 128 but it was her to kiss but gates saw the [TS]

  mouse movement and accused them of having dedicated hardware to do it [TS]

  because otherwise it would be impossible and it and i think i think is the story [TS]

  goes the jobs told andy hertzfeld shut up his Hertzfeld was going to tell gates [TS]

  exactly how they did it [TS]

  of course the word which goes back to the price . but like scientists writers [TS]

  like want to just tell everybody all the stuff all the time but it gates is the [TS]

  type of guy who could look at the mac and see something like that and say well [TS]

  this is something whereas bomber because he's so outside the product development [TS]

  and not really a software guy really is just a true business businessman CEO it [TS]

  didn't look at the iphone and see [TS]

  whoa this is this is not something to laugh at [TS]

  like there is a way to answer that question where he doesn't look so bad in [TS]

  hindsight you know and and keyboard thing is a fine answer that i know that [TS]

  you know I've made a over that over the years but at the time because all people [TS]

  with business phones had blackberry style devices or their windows you know [TS]

  the windows mobile devices blackberry style where it had these hardware [TS]

  keyboards that was a fine [TS]

  part of the answer yeah I join us turn has been on the show a light right or [TS]

  she should be more often because she's hilarious huge blackberry physical right [TS]

  keyboard fan you know she loves it right but you know it's just kind of tailed it [TS]

  is quite but that was a financial but the laughing at it was in a program you [TS]

  could just see I could just see that he just didn't have that I feel like tim [TS]

  cook doesn't have that problem he may not be a product guy but he is [TS]

  absolutely to my mind not focused solely on milking what Apple's got ok so two [TS]

  things [TS]

  Steve Jobs [TS]

  you've crapped on products right competing products what you're competing [TS]

  products like bomber dead so why do you think he managed to pull it off and [TS]

  bomber didn't I think his bomber was so profoundly wrong on that particular it [TS]

  is we have any of it it literally it's not like Steve Jobs saying like blu-rays [TS]

  back hurt which it is and we still don't have blu ray on any mac right [TS]

  it literally became I mean this is no exaggeration no hyperbole the iphone is [TS]

  the most successful product and in the history of consumer electronics that's [TS]

  maybe the most successful product . like more successful than the Model T Ford [TS]

  you know it it's unfathomable how much money [TS]

  Apple has made on and makes everyday on the iphone what I have predicted that [TS]

  when i first thought when I was in that audience in at macworld expo when when [TS]

  he showed the you know Steve Jobs took the iphone out of his pocket when I have [TS]

  predicted that it would be the most single most successful product in the [TS]

  world and would propel Apple to become your I think apples just if they only [TS]

  sold the iphone and had no other business they would still be the biggest [TS]

  company in the world by revenue and profit what I have predicted that would [TS]

  be true no but if you told me I'm from the future and that is true i would have [TS]

  believed it I would have said yeah this is so amazing that I could I can't [TS]

  believe that that's that it's going to be that big [TS]

  yeah i mean have told both told you this story before I'm sure said it before but [TS]

  I brought my phone when it couldn't even use it i like it you can do well I can [TS]

  always swipe and call 911 [TS]

  that's all i could do and love it and i bought it just gives it that and I can't [TS]

  want this thing I think you told the story on the show before this is not [TS]

  easy and the thing that I forgot you got halfway through the story last time and [TS]

  i totally forgot I still assume no okay [TS]

  you couldn't make phone calls because you were in Canada but you could you [TS]

  know you could still use notes and get on safari don't do you know now but you [TS]

  couldn't because those original iphones had to be activated you take it out of [TS]

  the box and you had to activate with eight didn't even yeah before you can [TS]

  guess that had the lock screen that's what I had I and swipe was like not [TS]

  sweat to unlock it was like swiped call now [TS]

  I'm like that was it that's the only thing i could do and I thought about [TS]

  doing it but our I'm a good citizen so I didn't do it but like I still bought [TS]

  that phone and loved it is a great phone eventually got unlocked and what things [TS]

  work that ok I've still got it on my desk area not giving anything up there [TS]

  yeah at first i phone you little bit of it that's a cultural moment I i don't [TS]

  know if you read it I link to it the other day guy on medium i I've heard it [TS]

  before but never really noticed a guy named John Dawson not wrote like a big [TS]

  long medium post it was five years of tim cook and charts and he had all sorts [TS]

  of information out I just pasted it will be in the show notes I swear but I [TS]

  thought it was really interesting and he makes a very interesting observation i'm [TS]

  sure horse has noticed and i probably should have been but Dawson points this [TS]

  out in a way that was makes it very clear is that under the five years of of [TS]

  tim cook apple's profit margins have gone down slightly [TS]

  you know they want you know they're high enough that a two percent drop in profit [TS]

  margins is not that big but it's kind of gone from you know it you know just [TS]

  dropped to $OPERAND percent but that they're spending on R&D has gone up as a [TS]

  percentage of revenue has gone as almost doubled gone from my 2% of four percent [TS]

  and that extra two percent correlates pretty much exactly with the two percent [TS]

  drop in profit margin that Apple has taken a little bit of a hit on profit [TS]

  margin to pump into R&D you know which again they can well afford to do because [TS]

  it's you know the profit margins have gone from extremely high to very high or [TS]

  ever so slightly less extremely high [TS]

  yeah and I did to me again you know the proof will be in the pudding as to what [TS]

  pans out of this increase in R&D spending but to me it [TS]

  evidence that he's as a leader he's not focused on milking the past products [TS]

  oh no thats what i don't want to just be like an apple children to cook [TS]

  cheerleader here but I i think this is a sign that I what Tim Cook is doing is [TS]

  very different than what bar was doing it microsoft microsoft double down on [TS]

  their existing assets microsoft windows and office and I don't think that that [TS]

  was a problem I feel like like I said before I think the only big mistake he [TS]

  made was missing out on mobile and that the mobile to mobile plan you had was a [TS]

  bad idea and then yeah but this is that but I die so yeah I see that as a [TS]

  symptom of like doubling down Windows but i think that i think Ben Thompson [TS]

  has made this case I'm just parroting Ben Thompson frankly but the fact that [TS]

  the bomber made windows and office so much more profitable than they were when [TS]

  he took over from gates it really did help strengthen microsoft is a company [TS]

  that they made you did such a good job of taking two products that were already [TS]

  incredibly profitable and incredibly you know it strong in the market and made [TS]

  them even more so at it really strengthened microsoft so that the fact [TS]

  that they frankly missed out on mobile and well so is it when you say frankly [TS]

  mr. i say at the expense of missing out i don't think that their exclusive that [TS]

  I think they could have done the same thing and had a better strategy all the [TS]

  critical but I mean they their focus was on driving revenue and there are two key [TS]

  right assets and so I think they got blindsided frankly you know and they had [TS]

  windows ce e and they thought they were good that it was not good [TS]

  it's literally wince like winc is like that's it was the joke since that they [TS]

  wanted they shipped it and it looked like windows 95 on a phone and even [TS]

  noticed i miss green it had to start menu right to come on guys like a bad [TS]

  idea it would be like if the iphone had in the top starting at the top left [TS]

  Apple alright yeah if I all those rumors that will file edit view I remember like [TS]

  the phone rumors that were every time you see like it like a rendering you [TS]

  like that it's garbage that's not gonna happen [TS]

  yeah and during the iphone launch like those rumors were so popular that Steve [TS]

  put up a photo of an ipod with the rotary dial right and like some other [TS]

  whatever like a list of names like make phone calls which is hilarious at but [TS]

  yet so I think Microsoft at the expense of getting into mobile focused on [TS]

  getting the most revenue out of their their existing assets i do think I and [TS]

  you know looking back at Tim Cook's five years in these interviews and the [TS]

  stories and stuff like that I feel like part of it and a be iterated over and [TS]

  over at washington post interview that he's focused on the long-term that the [TS]

  short term and he said something about like the question was something to the [TS]

  effect of what do you say the short term investors who are frustrated because [TS]

  like for example if you're in apples on the short term right now for this [TS]

  calendar year they're down year-over-year for the first time and [TS]

  and his answers we welcome investors of all sorts whether you're in for the [TS]

  short term and long term but we're very clear that our strategic plans are [TS]

  solely and only focused on the long-term so if you want to write us for three [TS]

  months and try to make a quick buck [TS]

  you're welcome to try but we're not playing that game yeah I love that co-op [TS]

  either way [TS]

  yeah everybody's welcome we're thinking long-term so you should all write about [TS]

  it [TS]

  ok coming with your eyes open and right and that i'm not going to worry about [TS]

  you know one 90-day blip right [TS]

  so just to be the Denis Leary to your chance to it i want to talk about Vesper [TS]

  yeah let me take a break I've that was the last topic I wanted to talk about it [TS]

  oh you did okay you're gonna have two lakes twist your arm now but i figured [TS]

  let's you know that's not be self-indulgent let's talk about the real [TS]

  news first not let me take a break don't think our third and final sponsor the [TS]

  show longtime friend of the show great company fracture fracture is a photo [TS]

  decor company that is out to rescue your favorite images from the digital either [TS]

  you've heard if you listen to the show you know what they do they take your [TS]

  photo you sent them digital photos they print them directly on glass if you [TS]

  haven't if you're new to the show if you if you haven't heard the factor thing [TS]

  before I mean it i don't know how they do it I i would actually die almost [TS]

  tempted to go down there and see the factory and see how they do it because i [TS]

  don't understand it they don't print photo on paper and glue it or seal it to [TS]

  class [TS]

  somehow they actually print directly on glass I don't know how they do it I've [TS]

  never seen anything else like it i never heard of anything else like it i need it [TS]

  i get some kind of proprietary process I don't know but it is amazing it really [TS]

  does make the color and the contrast of your photos really pop it looks better [TS]

  than printed photos in a glass frame i don't know why but it does and because [TS]

  it's right there in the class you get you can just use the actual piece of [TS]

  glass and it comes with everything you need to hang it up on the wall it's got [TS]

  like cardboard on the back but you don't have a frame it just goes edge to edge [TS]

  so it ends up looking like like the cell phones from what was that ryan Johnson [TS]

  movie with a looper or where it's just like a piece of glassware it just goes [TS]

  edge and there is no bezel around it or anything any kind of frame it looks [TS]

  futuristic it is amazing it is a really cool look to not have any border at all [TS]

  you when you get your fracture you don't have to then put it in a frame or [TS]

  something to hang it up you just opened a little cardboard thing that comes with [TS]

  and it's ready to go right up there [TS]

  everything you need it's really really great is just just fill your house with [TS]

  these things take pictures of your kids your family whoever else you got your [TS]

  dog [TS]

  sleeping on his on his new mattress take a cool picture of your dog get a [TS]

  fracture print of it hanging up on the wall they do a write in gainesville [TS]

  florida from us source materials their factory is carbon neutral i can't say [TS]

  enough good things about this takes some summer vacation photos get them printed [TS]

  it you won't regret it [TS]

  so here's where you go for more information and ten percent off your [TS]

  first order you'll save some bucks go to fracture me.com / podcast they're going [TS]

  to give you a survey it is a one questions hooray [TS]

  that is where did you hear about them and then you can that's where you just [TS]

  say you heard about it on the talk show couldn't be easier [TS]

  tractor me.com / podcast alright Vesper shutdown that's what ways when at just [TS]

  decided for the attitude have used treasure i like them [TS]

  it's good like I loved good product and i would recommend it and I'm this is [TS]

  totally unsolicited and kind of just jumping in the middle of a show it to [TS]

  say that anyway what what's up with the best man well [TS]

  yeah okay so the venture van for what two three years three years we've [TS]

  shipped in june of 2013 [TS]

  okay and you've you've wrapped it up now like you're right and by the end of [TS]

  $YEAR i believe this month you're shutting off the sync service right at [TS]

  that point we really only have two things we have an iOS app and we have a [TS]

  sync service and we for various reasons we need to shut down the sink service I [TS]

  there's some changes coming to as your mobile services we might it's you know [TS]

  possible that after these changes that it would if we had left it up running [TS]

  would keep running but there's also possible we just don't know yet until [TS]

  they make the change it's also possible that require engineering to fix and the [TS]

  effort that we don't have because brent is not working on Vesper anymore so we [TS]

  don't have the engineering to keep it running so since we can't guarantee it [TS]

  and we were thinking we should shut it down anyway now is a good time to do it [TS]

  so we're shutting down the sink service so what we did is we shipped a new [TS]

  version of Esper that has to change is one you can no longer sign up for a sink [TS]

  account because because it really doesn't make any sense to allow people [TS]

  to sign up first think account that is only gonna last for five days and two it [TS]

  adds an export feature which we probably should have had all along but didn't for [TS]

  various reasons but the way that we're doing export is really that to me it's [TS]

  it's ideal is and it's you have chicks identity to get job there's confusion [TS]

  and I think I don't think that if you read what we wrote about it at various [TS]

  places either in the release notes for this new version of the app or like [TS]

  Brent's blog or my blog on I don't think of what we wrote is confusing but i [TS]

  think because of the way so many other services work people just come at it [TS]

  with the wrong impression and our computers the one source of confusion [TS]

  people have is hey wait if you're shutting down the sink service at the [TS]

  end of august this is like too short of a notice how am I going to export my [TS]

  notes because you're studying adapt you know it what if I'm not what if somebody [TS]

  is on vacation for the last week of august and they don't get it and the [TS]

  sync server is already off and they haven't been able to export their notes [TS]

  and the confusion is that export doesn't go from the cloud it's not we in fact we [TS]

  can't like the way that the sync services is worked is that I guess we [TS]

  could but it-it-it the data on the device right and it's exported through [TS]

  on iOS document Pickers is that was called document pickers and enough so [TS]

  the one that there by default for anybody who has iCloud is you can export [TS]

  to iCloud Drive [TS]

  yeah but if you have any other app that has a document picker extension dropbox [TS]

  is a obvious one [TS]

  I another one that is very cool that I've tried is a transmitted from our [TS]

  friends at panic so if you have transmitted on your phone you can export [TS]

  your Vesper notes from your device to any web server that you have configured [TS]

  in transmit any really wear that pendant a great job that's yeah shocking [TS]

  yeah but anyway export goes from the device not from the not from the class [TS]

  so we can shut down the sink server and anything that really notice that you [TS]

  already have on your device you can export including the pictures and then [TS]

  what we're going to do is we're probably gonna take Vesper out of the app store [TS]

  soon [TS]

  yeah I didn't feel well I wrote about i mean i'm sad i mean i really love the [TS]

  app and I like you know I liked working with friend Dave I'd really did have a [TS]

  lot of fun but the truth is that once you know what we just never made enough [TS]

  money I mean I wrote about it we never made enough money so we couldn't really [TS]

  we were needed to make enough money to keep rent full time and we didn't we [TS]

  never made that much money so Brent it the one was that 2014 some point 24 he's [TS]

  been an army for one [TS]

  yes I might be like two years and eight months maybe two years ago I think it's [TS]

  like two years like two years and come September Brent went to work at the omni [TS]

  group which you know again it's like working for panic it's like oh yeah kind [TS]

  of like an all-star team [TS]

  oh yeah ah yeah you know it's it's like can all you know like Kevin Durant going [TS]

  to the to the already great golden state warriors like oh yeah now they just [TS]

  picked up front sevens yeah sure that's great then has an awesome three-point [TS]

  shot right away but the truth is that once [TS]

  Brent went to work for Romney full-time there's you know you know which the [TS]

  writing was on the wall that there was no way for us to continue [TS]

  I mean in theory we could have hired somebody else I found somebody else to [TS]

  take over for Brent and I be managed a volume unit and the programmer but it's [TS]

  you know I guess part of the whole thing wasn't really that we wanted a [TS]

  programmer the whole point was that i wanted to work with Prince Simmons and [TS]

  get that was that makes me feel a lot better [TS]

  well you know I mean like I'm joking i just solid whatever this it's you know [TS]

  for the sake of comedy [TS]

  hey I mean yeah I know it's true i mean we'll have to say I mean I die you die I [TS]

  just like I asked you if you wanted to do it but I said it would you think [TS]

  about you know we did talk about it awhile yeah I know yeah that'sthat's [TS]

  well I didn't even want to bring that up [TS]

  yeah it's all a joke just as a maybe as a woman and we're going to grant is like [TS]

  a life goal [TS]

  hey that guy's amazing i would love to have like were conversations with them [TS]

  he's and he's good [TS]

  bill yet he's smart smart like one of the smartest guys i know [TS]

  yeah because it was great working with them i really enjoyed it and I i [TS]

  personally feel very I feel responsible for the failure of vespers a business [TS]

  because that was really that was the only one that was yeah I do and I think [TS]

  Brendan would disagree and Dave but would disagree maybe yeah I also did I [TS]

  because I feel like that was my job Brent job was to make the appt to do all [TS]

  the all the engineering and David job was to do the design and make it look [TS]

  great and work great and have a logic to it and you know I definitely work [TS]

  certainly worked a lot on the design with Dave but I I feel like [TS]

  fundamentally my role as the director as we called it was to make sure what we're [TS]

  doing is you know if anybody was responsible for make coming up with an [TS]

  idea and a business model that makes enough that we that we would be a [TS]

  success that was me and well it's admirable that you think that but I [TS]

  think you're an idiot [TS]

  yes here that's when you fuck i feel really let me put it this way i feel [TS]

  responsible for the failure but I'm [TS]

  losing sleeper [TS]

  does that make sense like yeah that's good that's good i'm not trying to be a [TS]

  martyr about it i'm not trying to say oh you know for me you know you know feel [TS]

  bad for me that I'm that I'm blaming me so that I do think that I should have [TS]

  known I feel like in hindsight I like I wrote about I really feel like what we [TS]

  wanted to do I mean number one there's all sorts of things that like one thing [TS]

  we agreed from the outset was that we didn't want to raise money we did not [TS]

  want to you know be funded in any way we wanted to effectively self-fund with as [TS]

  they call it sweat equity where Brent could afford to spend it [TS]

  you know the good part of the first year working on it before we made any money [TS]

  you know that he was coming from from glass bored and you know had the luxury [TS]

  of being able to work for a while without making money any idea was we [TS]

  would self-fund by doing the iphone version selling it making enough money [TS]

  from the iphone version to you know sort of bootstrap the company financially [TS]

  while we worked on the next stuff which was to do sync service figure out a way [TS]

  to you know whether it was building around which is what we wound up doing [TS]

  are using iCloud or Dropbox or something and then doing a mac version and selling [TS]

  that and then going forward from there with a effectively a system where you [TS]

  could be at your Mac or you can be on your phone and maybe depending on how we [TS]

  did the sync service you could be on the just on the web and you could do it from [TS]

  anywhere and I really do feel like in hindsight I should have known better and [TS]

  we should have done the mac version first [TS]

  I feel like that's an interesting choice and it's a typical I've we're all use [TS]

  the way that most people don't even think you're doing a mac app I can't [TS]

  agree with you but I'm what kind of a mack advocate and every love the mac [TS]

  right and you're you know it is distilled you're probably have a mac at [TS]

  yeah right we navigate it [TS]

  yeah you know and for the same reason they did that the you and Chris you know [TS]

  did napkin as a mac app first and so far only you know I think we should have [TS]

  done the same thing with Vesper and I i wrote it [TS]

  this I'm just repeating you can go read the article and daring fireball but i do [TS]

  think that Dave and I did the right thing where the schedule that we had was [TS]

  that dave and i we you know where we agreed to to create the company was it [TS]

  singleton I had heard that actually at the bar [TS]

  yeah so at singleton 2012 Brent said he wanted to talk to me and dave and i have [TS]

  even remember who was speaking at the time it was friend of the show Glenn [TS]

  fleischmann so we look at you you snuck out on land [TS]

  yeah I singleton was a conference a used to run for for the audience right yeah [TS]

  you totally duck down so during Glenn fleischmann stalk brenton dave and i [TS]

  went to the bar which was right next door so I mean we could vaguely here [TS]

  Glenn's talk but if it was held in a nice hotel and there's a bar right next [TS]

  door and we had a couple beers and and Brent said here's what I'm thinking I'm [TS]

  you know I'm leaving class board soon i want to make you know I want to go back [TS]

  to doing in the apps what I would like to do is make an appt with you two guys [TS]

  I think that we would make a good team [TS]

  I don't know what the idea is what do you guys think and we went from there [TS]

  but that's where a dave and i instantly were like yeah I'm in let's figure this [TS]

  out let's make a make it happen but the the timeline was that Brent wasn't he [TS]

  had months to go in class bored yet he was going to give notice and wine down [TS]

  you know very gracefully you know so we have lead is a professional [TS]

  yeah he left on you know that you know perfectly amicable terms but he had [TS]

  better but they were going to be months in advance where Brent wasn't spending [TS]

  any time on Vesper which was fine and in fact we thought this works out great [TS]

  because once we decided on the idea of this note app concept I Dave and I spent [TS]

  months going over to the the design before front row anything and I think in [TS]

  hindsight I still think we did the exact right thing by designing the iphone app [TS]

  first but i but i think that we should have as soon as we're done designing the [TS]

  iphone app should have designed the mac app and then had Brent build that first [TS]

  and the reason I say that is that i really do think that it [TS]

  today's well if you plan to have an iphone app or mobile app in general if [TS]

  you wanna include android you should design that first because that's where [TS]

  all the constraints are going to be that's where the screen size is most [TS]

  limited that's where they the features are less limited [TS]

  I mean we're all playing text guys one of the things i love about this percent [TS]

  it's a plain text app meaning there's no italic snowbowl you don't get to change [TS]

  the font don't get to make it bigger or if you do it's system wide so all your [TS]

  notes going to get bigger all your notes are bigger and I love plaintext I think [TS]

  plaintext has won the war i think you know i have a random me about that but i [TS]

  think the way that like Facebook and Twitter don't have fonts you know that [TS]

  it's just plain text is is a better system [TS]

  I feel like email got ruined as soon as email changed from being a plaintext [TS]

  medium matte agree i'm an old so whatever but so we were never we were [TS]

  always got there was never any question that we're desperate was going to be . x [TS]

  but as an example one of the things that would be easy to do if you went Mac [TS]

  first is there's a fantastic [TS]

  what is it NS text field a well on ok on man iOS it on Mac yeah right now you get [TS]

  a full word processor for free [TS]

  oh yeah right you can make like a hello world app without writing any code and [TS]

  just you know in in xcode you can just use interface builder and you know that [TS]

  was a Steve Jobs demo yeah like jab one of those out [TS]

  it's one of the things next week we promised . but there's an RTF rich text [TS]

  format text editor you know you can effectively several minutes have [TS]

  whatever you have stand right i mean that the actual text edit app has a [TS]

  bunch of other features there's you know the autosave and a whole bunch of nice [TS]

  stuff but you can effectively build TextEdit for free and are a virgin very [TS]

  close to where you get out he'll give you the code [TS]

  yeah they give you the coast liked the demo come pick you kick butt if you need [TS]

  to do at least back in the day didn't it yeah if you made a note app and there's [TS]

  plenty of them using that field which would be very natural to do if you go [TS]

  back first [TS]

  you're up shits creek trying to make that go to the iphone because the iphone [TS]

  doesn't have a room [TS]

  TF editing field right [TS]

  yes I think you can Adam I think you can render it now as of ios7 yeah it's not [TS]

  quite you don't [TS]

  yeah I believe there's those cases that you can but it was you know because he [TS]

  shot an applet that's just what it's just one example though of the type of [TS]

  things where you can do all sorts of more powerful stuff on the mac then you [TS]

  can do on the iOS yet but I think that's what's your point is they get designed [TS]

  for mobile first and then maybe like do Mac App yeah that because I check or [TS]

  money for friday but the only way you can make a mac app where you're aware of [TS]

  the constraints of the iOS version is to design the iOS version first [TS]

  yes I gay and I really think we could have done that I think that we [TS]

  definitely could have sold it for a lot more money because i think we would have [TS]

  sold for twenty dollars a copy and the counter i could be wrong the [TS]

  counter-argument is obviously that there are way more io iphone users and mac [TS]

  users but i don't think there are that many more iphone users who pay for [TS]

  productivity apps like no taps then there are yeah that's one of the things [TS]

  it's like yet at one point there were so many windows machines out there that it [TS]

  was like it was crazy but nobody [TS]

  is buying software [TS]

  we have matters a lot like that's all you care about is how many people out of [TS]

  this install base are actually buying software and if on iOS it's really low [TS]

  it's a less of an appealing target than the mac where maybe it's a little bit [TS]

  higher and people willing to a little bit more money so I there was an ocean [TS]

  in the early years of the app store that you know and it's certainly a lot of the [TS]

  people in our circle people we know [TS]

  indymac developers started making in the iOS apps and there was a feeling like [TS]

  maybe that the iOS market would be a lot like the mac market which has a [TS]

  long-term you know for you know back when we used to call shareware supported [TS]

  independent software independent developers could create apps sell them [TS]

  at a price and quantity that x each other would equal enough my to be to do [TS]

  this full time and call it a job and that that iOS would work out similarly [TS]

  and it was very clear very quickly that the prices on iOS we're going to be a [TS]

  lot lower and the thought was well maybe the quantity will be so much higher that [TS]

  the multi multiply the price by the quantity and it'll be equivalent and [TS]

  it's that hasn't worked out that way I mean that's the thing again I'm not [TS]

  assigning blame i'm not saying it you know we could we could maybe make that [TS]

  argument that Apple had some blame but i'm just stating the fact that the way [TS]

  it's worked out is that with rare exceptions and there are exceptions but [TS]

  it is a lot less of a feasible platform for that idea the idea of you make an [TS]

  appt sell it for X dollars to why people and then you'll have x times y revenue [TS]

  minus a minus thirty percent mine and it just didn't work out that way whereas in [TS]

  a mac is still thriving for stuff like that and I think ultimately it's better [TS]

  to look at iOS as something more akin to the web where you didn't like you can't [TS]

  make daring fireball dotnet and then when you load it you say you have to pay [TS]

  five dollars before you can read it like the web just doesn't work that way [TS]

  I mean in the closest the web comes to that is paywalls and everybody knows [TS]

  paywall suck [TS]

  so I think for application software i think in general and again there are [TS]

  exceptions and fantastical Cal is a great example a sweet spot is if a great [TS]

  example where they are iOS apps that sell for a couple of bucks and sell in [TS]

  sufficient quantities that the developers can afford to do work on them [TS]

  full time but for the most part I was doesn't work that way and I think most [TS]

  people should approach it as being more kinder the web where the did the app is [TS]

  free and maybe there's an in-app purchase to unlock better features or [TS]

  themes or something like that but that fundamentally it has to be a free [TS]

  download or else you just get lost [TS]

  yeah I largely created you know and then the demo thing is the one area where you [TS]

  can complain that apple doesn't allow you to have ios app demos on the mat and [TS]

  can I mean even there are even apps like I just tried it because the guys at [TS]

  ulysses Ulysses is a text and/or a great tech center [TS]

  yeah rawr project-based writing editor sort of like an Xcode for writing type [TS]

  thing they released a very nifty tool specific for the Vesper export format [TS]

  where you can just drag the folder onto this tool that they just released [TS]

  yesterday and it will translate your Vesper export into a format that is [TS]

  exactly imported into Ulysses so Ulysses on the mac i thought this is really [TS]

  interesting [TS]

  the only way to buy it is to get it through the app store the one and only [TS]

  way but they still have a demo version on their website that you can download [TS]

  so that you can try before you buy it but the demo unlike a lot of other [TS]

  developers that demoed there's no way to do it in app and and circumvent they are [TS]

  you know apparently so happy with the app store in terms of be using after all [TS]

  the processing and every land there's a bunch of technical issues for that right [TS]

  there are and that they can do I cloud you know they can count yeah like this [TS]

  you can change your entitlements and that's entitlements means its technical [TS]

  term right but there's you [TS]

  yeah but long story short there still is a demo version that you can try and that [TS]

  really see me is fundamental to getting people to part with twenty thirty forty [TS]

  dollars for a nap [TS]

  yeah i agree as a guy that sells a 42 right yeah I think it's a great idea [TS]

  yeah how many people do you think for a napkin [TS]

  how many people do you think try the demo before the bye I have no demo [TS]

  oh you guys don't have a demo you guys are only yeah wow yeah you guys should [TS]

  have a demo [TS]

  yeah where we want to and I didn't know that well i know i got 11 whatever you [TS]

  know I know a guy and he hooked me up with a free copy of napkin so i'm not [TS]

  familiar with without purchase and that's good if we give you a free 1i [TS]

  don't know maybe i bought it i don't remember my and maybe your four bucks [TS]

  and that but [TS]

  and that but [TS]

  and now we don't have a demo and a the original reason why is that like one of [TS]

  the key features we had was sharing the graphic that you create an iCloud and we [TS]

  couldn't do that without song through the app store and it wasn't worth having [TS]

  two versions that were different you know [TS]

  yeah that's that's I think it changed and then let you know like giving are [TS]

  now that we know the audience a little bit that's not necessarily the [TS]

  environment use case it's sort of the opposite of what rich single did with [TS]

  bbedit were rich and bbedit on both you know as an independent download and in [TS]

  the mac app store and and fact gave a terrific talk at singleton [TS]

  yeah i was really one of my favorite singleton talk to everyone's really [TS]

  great [TS]

  yeah about why he was leaving the mac app store and just go and I think to [TS]

  make a very it was a 40-minute talk and it was great to boil it down to a knot [TS]

  it was you know just a lot less stress to have one version that wasn't in the [TS]

  mac app store [TS]

  yeah because the single of e-edit and and barrel and software not a dummy in [TS]

  business for like a long time [TS]

  I you know I go out it'll be a surprise when it happens but I was just talking [TS]

  with rich I'm gonna have he's gonna be a guest on the show very soon [TS]

  oh cool oh man that's awesome he's great and he's is is pretty good [TS]

  anyway I best / so anyway we didn't make enough money we went iphone first I [TS]

  think it was foolish to go iphone first and expect to make money from selling a [TS]

  paid app to to justify the company whereas I think we've got mac first it [TS]

  would have been we made at least as much money and I think we would have more [TS]

  energy therefore brain could have worked on it full time more and we would have [TS]

  heard of their gotten off the ground would you do not that [TS]

  oh absolutely if the if the situation were right i mean it's not like I'm [TS]

  going to do a nap . but if the right you know but yeah you're getting the [TS]

  circumstances [TS]

  yeah it would depend on who it was if I wanted you know if I like i wanted to [TS]

  work with them and whether the idea appealed to me I mean investment was a [TS]

  perfect storm for me because I really I've always wanted to work with brand [TS]

  Dave and I really did have a fantastic design process we really did I mean and [TS]

  and we disagreed in the best possible way and yeah that's yeah sometimes he [TS]

  would change my mind and sometimes I would change his mind but we both would [TS]

  listen to each other and we would be able to sort of say I kind of feel like [TS]

  it should be this instead of that but if I said or heeey or I said I feel [TS]

  incredible i'm convinced that I'm right and even if you do you know and and we [TS]

  would pull that card we would listen to each other like even if I disagree that [TS]

  should be this and he said that but he said I'm convinced it should be that [TS]

  then I would say okay because I'm not absent the best it was quickly working [TS]

  relationship you can have and i love the app I really i still love it so yeah me [TS]

  too because it work [TS]

  it was a perfect storm it was worth putting a lot of time into but I don't [TS]

  know [TS]

  just to say about it yeah remember when we wanted to a phone app this is way [TS]

  back in the first year we can talk about that since seven yeah ditto 2009 right [TS]

  or 2008 2008's yeah I the idea i was just cracking a joke we don't need to [TS]

  actually show mr. all right maybe not because i still think it's a good enough [TS]

  idea [TS]

  oh yeah I want to keep that but i think i still have the domain name i love the [TS]

  idea here renewing that it's it's pathological is probably going to [TS]

  bankrupt me eventually little better eventually bankrupt mirrors my the [TS]

  annual level let me know maybe I'll you know I have some money around the annual [TS]

  bills are under it [TS]

  unused domain names oh the and I'm not being followed the other ones i have I [TS]

  you know what I have so many dumb domain names i think have common fireball [TS]

  gotten it [TS]

  I'm and fireball something like that just to be a dick and I can't even [TS]

  remember what the joke was it's probably had something that common mark down or [TS]

  something right [TS]

  yes yes right [TS]

  yes it would like I think of a joke where I'm going to be a dick to you and [TS]

  then ages [TS]

  I don't it's like that's work and I don't care anything else anything else [TS]

  you wanted to ask me about Vesper and I think we covered it all [TS]

  I mean I think [TS]

  yeah you covered a lot uh people arriving as the 20 let me just say this [TS]

  i will say that why we have received an awful lot of both foot on Twitter and by [TS]

  email an awful lot of very very very very nice things that people said after [TS]

  we said this about Vesper and I want to thank everybody who took the time to [TS]

  write I do appreciate that you have a question that was gonna be my question [TS]

  is do you feel a responsibility to users it and I do you can't you kind of [TS]

  covered a bit with the same case you right but yeah I'm i do but on the other [TS]

  hand even at its most expensive it was ten box and I you know I feel like a nap [TS]

  we'll keep working you know if you've bought it and and you know you have it [TS]

  on your phone it should keep working for a long time I mean it definitely still [TS]

  works on iOS 10 or at least on the beta's just nothing in iOS 10 that [TS]

  breaks it eventually something in iOS I guess we'll break it but I it might be [TS]

  many years so yeah we tell me and we talked about that privately but right i [TS]

  think you're good for at least two more mobility system that's at least two [TS]

  years you know [TS]

  yeah because you mean you don't do anything crazy right and it would be [TS]

  something like a look like when apps went from 32-bit 64-bit and now six [TS]

  32-bit apps launch and you get like a warning i be for various reasons we have [TS]

  to say why but i think its priests aging the fact that eventually maybe next year [TS]

  32-bit apps are just not going to launch on iOS anymore i think that's eventually [TS]

  going to happen some change like that will eventually happen investor will [TS]

  break but it might be many many years away because i don't think there's any [TS]

  kind of change that big coming soon [TS]

  yeah you know but yea husband didn't doesn't seem like it but yeah yeah I [TS]

  think you'll be fine for years [TS]

  yeah there could be some ways wink it can you take a nap off this store and [TS]

  still have people upgrade to it i don't know i actually don't know like so that [TS]

  it's there so that if you already it i think yeah you've got like an old one [TS]

  you want to upgrade to the one with export right you can get it [TS]

  despite the fact is not actually available for purchase will ya [TS]

  free download on the star yeah the car [TS]

  and plan is to take it off the store i think we can do it in a way where if you [TS]

  want to restore you'll still be able to download will be there it will be hidden [TS]

  from new users but since we may not free i don't know maybe i don't i'm not quite [TS]

  sure maybe we could reconsider that maybe who cares just keep it yeah you [TS]

  got a bunch of new downloads more downloads since we made it free [TS]

  more downloads then we had in the entire three-year history of it being which i'm [TS]

  not surprised about it again I'm not complaining hi understand how this works [TS]

  but there were times where we were selling it for as low as like two [TS]

  dollars [TS]

  yeah you guys messed with the price bit and right because it was ten [TS]

  conventionally now 499 I think originally and ok and and that was when [TS]

  it was most like it was far more successful in the first year I mean it [TS]

  corresponds to one it was most actively developed the first year sure most [TS]

  successful was mostly for most of that time for 99 I think we were in like a [TS]

  hot christmas promotion where we lowered the price and then once we realize we're [TS]

  running out of steam financially weed you know what we have nothing to lose [TS]

  let's see what happens if we make a cheaper [TS]

  let's see what happens if we make it more expensive and yeah neither really [TS]

  made any difference [TS]

  ask what you get for making a shitty at man thanks [TS]