The Talk Show

162: ‘Special Bullying Venue’, With Special Guest Glenn Fleishman

 

  every mac user is the smugness bastard in the world viruses never affect us [TS]

  were immune to whatever and the reality of course is some people feel that way [TS]

  most people who looked at the situation all know that we're not immune we're [TS]

  just really lucky it's the targets been small apple does a good job upgrading in [TS]

  pushing people to upgrade the support systems back many years the target is so [TS]

  small this usually not worthwhile for malware makers to target us so that's [TS]

  been our immunity is because we're in significant as a target not necessarily [TS]

  an absolute numbers this new thing is this group at cisco tell us callous they [TS]

  are one of many no security firms it's constantly researching for weaknesses [TS]

  usually to help clients there they are trying to make sure their clients are [TS]

  protected they find something dispela who add some communication with tyler [TS]

  bowen found five previously undiscovered fairly severe flaws in the way that [TS]

  image format files get parsed and the trouble was like three or four them were [TS]

  reasonably severe but you kind of open a file and whatever but there's one [TS]

  related to tiff John you've been using tip for your whole life right since your [TS]

  brother that's right [TS]

  ancient format so there's a part of the something in the parser it if you use a [TS]

  tiled tiff file and its format in this very specific malicious fashion the iOS [TS]

  and ostensibly OS 10 and probably I think the other two S's are also patch [TS]

  TV OS and watching us if it's rendered it will actually think in that case it's [TS]

  a memory as a buffer overflow usual typical old thing and it can allow the [TS]

  potential for malicious code executes and you know take control machine and do [TS]

  whatever and just by displaying image [TS]

  yeah here's the reason it's considered particularly insidious you could load it [TS]

  with a web page in safari you could have MS just open and somebody could text you [TS]

  know send you a text message with the tip in it is a few other vectors merely [TS]

  by rendering the preview it would have to parse the file enough that this [TS]

  condition could be exploited that sounds pretty horrific right that's and that's [TS]

  why it was considered it's considered very severe and some discussion about [TS]

  how severe [TS]

  and apples patched they use responsible disclosure it's not a zero-day there are [TS]

  experts in the wild and if you update to all the all the current os's if you just [TS]

  update the latest micro release you are protected against that particular tiff [TS]

  exploit as well as the other four image format related exploits I have so many [TS]

  follow . all right by the way BMP format BMP is actually also affected which is [TS]

  kind of hilarious like Tiffany happy nobody's looking at them and I think [TS]

  they're just old implementations let me see if I can keep my head [TS]

  one of them is yes I used to use ad as you know and i know you have the ink [TS]

  stained hands as well if I came from a world of print design and in the world [TS]

  of print design in the nineties tiff was the de facto format from at least four [TS]

  lineart yeah for any kind of bitmap everything went from through photoshop [TS]

  into tiff before it went into production but it's sort of a notorious for file [TS]

  format because I seem to recall vaguely that over the years they've been an [TS]

  awful awful lot of security issues like this that have to do with tiff person [TS]

  that is my rolodex as well I didn't go back and look it up but I i think it's [TS]

  that old code thing like people wrote to parsers in 1980-something early 1990s [TS]

  early nineteen eighties maybe probably late nineties and the parsers the basic [TS]

  code is probably mostly unchanged a lot of ways for 30 years and it's probably a [TS]

  very difficult formats probably have ported formats back that's my guess that [TS]

  therefore it makes it hard to write the easy to write a not easy to write hard [TS]

  to write a parser and easy to make mistakes with memory management in the [TS]

  handling of the parser so when i get there is another point because it's such [TS]

  a weird old format and it's that was never really part of the web in in [TS]

  anyway I'm very surprised that iOS and watch us even have to park encode have [TS]

  this is part of the unlike the quick look thing they like everything in all [TS]

  the different os's support quick look for you know every major filetype [TS]

  include some weird image formats and [TS]

  the things that you know might never be previewing but you can preview of raw [TS]

  images in some cases PNG's down a DNG files for the digital formats and all [TS]

  these things [TS]

  PNG by the White Way when that specification portable network graphics [TS]

  that's kind of tips replacement because it has all the different kinds of things [TS]

  did lossless and lossy and different alphabet whatever in the specifications [TS]

  I met one of the people who wrote the spec years ago [TS]

  nineteen nineties it says ping is pronounced ping in the specs there's no [TS]

  question [TS]

  mhm how else could you pronounce it PNG i guess i don't know you're the only [TS]

  other way [TS]

  yeah the only other way i could think you could pronounce it would be $TIME [TS]

  p.m. or just saying the initials PNG i pronounce a pan i don't know it's just [TS]

  you know some wood right away [TS]

  ping is in just pinning it pain is an odd historical success because a lot of [TS]

  times when when people get together in the open and say you know it's there's [TS]

  even like an xkcd comic about it where it's like way too many specs and they'll [TS]

  stick you know what the solution is a nose back at you just add to the pile [TS]

  but usually even if it's a noble goal [TS]

  whereas ping had the noble goal of saying we've got a couple of bitmap [TS]

  image files formats that are out there being used and they are all terrible for [TS]

  certain for one reason or another web we had gif files and don't even tell me [TS]

  that you're just person haha my car you are you just person I'm choosy [TS]

  programmers choose Jeff that's if it's a graphic image change interchange format [TS]

  anyway it's a GIF file terrible just a I mean I read this format i mean we have [TS]

  256 colors at a time [TS]

  i mean it's it's goofy yours it was great it was going to tell you serve its [TS]

  June it was created for computer because it was a copy serve user were you I can [TS]

  remember when you come down i was never unconscious sir [TS]

  ok now i cant for a long time I can remember my 5 comma 4 digit address [TS]

  because with seven have totally lost that's where the promised Asia cannot [TS]

  remember by 1979 [TS]

  copies of like you said but I'm copy sir it was great with style up we had like [TS]

  10 12 hundred bog modems or 12 her bps modem something like that it was a great [TS]

  compact format when you had it was rendered you know rendered in a way that [TS]

  made sense a client at a time and/or interlacing was not all your kingship [TS]

  most computer you had most computers only had 16 color displays so did ya it [TS]

  was her for the day and it's astonishing that it still is great but ya ping and [TS]

  remember the most boring thing in the world [TS]

  this lzw algorithm was not handed and units just try to enforce it and pink as [TS]

  an outcome I efforts to patent patent expired in $YEAR had to look it up 2003 [TS]

  because I'm going off but that was part of the issues like tiff used lzw which [TS]

  meant to be licensed shift was being attacked or potentially unisys wanted to [TS]

  license it i believe lcw may have been one of the early attempts to one of the [TS]

  issues like businessmen not business method patents but it was a software is [TS]

  patent algorithm patents there are some issues there anyway [TS]

  yeah and if your matter that historically ever getting sidetracked [TS]

  here but it's all good stuff that know that his it was it was a big story [TS]

  locally because unisys is a philadelphia-area company stay where I [TS]

  don't know if they still are so it was a big story locally but the gist of it is [TS]

  that they own the patents behind her or patents that were part of fundamental [TS]

  part of the jif gif format Patrick ice something I and they never enforced it [TS]

  and it you know people there were the gift is being displayed and parsed and [TS]

  created you know and every image editing tool and it was all over the place and [TS]

  then netscape added you know put support in to render them in you know mosaic or [TS]

  whatever that you know whatever the first one of their browsers that had [TS]

  images which was a big deal it was actually a big deal when they added [TS]

  image tags to it to the web browser [TS]

  nah I and they waited until like all of a sudden like when the internet exploded [TS]

  and everybody was buying [TS]

  no like Adam banks internet book and everybody is like I'm gonna get on the [TS]

  internet bill gates is writing a memo that we're going to you know turn the [TS]

  whole you know Microsoft around at the internet internet internet and then all [TS]

  of a sudden somebody at unit systems like a we own a patent for this and the [TS]

  wet the the open community responded so we've got to create a new format and [TS]

  they did it they did it quickly they got support into all the tools quickly and [TS]

  yeah king took over the world as it was supposed to very quickly and that almost [TS]

  never happens [TS]

  it's where ping is such a great format a lot of ways I mean I think it's funny [TS]

  that it didn't actually ultimately replace everything except i'll accept [TS]

  jpg but it's just it's great this all the different kinds you know two modes [TS]

  you can do 24-bit with alpha transparency and it's just it's not [TS]

  quite as compact i think is just for the same thing but uh yeah patents patents [TS]

  uh actually almost came up remember with them the the committee that runs the was [TS]

  H dot 264 whatever the underlying patterns are there there's a patent pool [TS]

  but i think there was one point there was a question about whether if you used [TS]

  if you displayed H dot 264 video on your site without going through a third party [TS]

  package like adobe flash for instance which wrapped it that you might actually [TS]

  go separate licensing fees and using flash one of the reasons that flash was [TS]

  successful is because adobe handle the licensing for video pads or at least [TS]

  they said they did I think that fact was overlooked because the you know the [TS]

  flashes are terrible but it meant there was no if you are you know CBS or [TS]

  something if you put in flash your lawyers must have assured you [TS]

  it's cool we only fees if you use html5 as if they existed to show you how to [TS]

  directly stream that kind of format i think there might have been a patent [TS]

  issue that's been resolved since the patent holders changed it so they [TS]

  wouldn't go poop in the pool but not remember that you know it's it's always [TS]

  a good sign when the lawyers are making engineering decisions for you [TS]

  yeah it's great your web technologies it's great i let it know what could go [TS]

  wrong [TS]

  all right back to the security issues so [TS]

  so all of Apple's operating systems were vulnerable to this that so is that all [TS]

  the current ones and also to previous version of OS 10 were tested [TS]

  it's possible that older versions are also vulnerable and they just didn't [TS]

  test him i don't have clarity on that because the particular library may go [TS]

  back a bazillion you know years could be back to 10 . six or ten dunno falling [TS]

  out but there are no actual exploits in the wild right or not least none that [TS]

  are known number known as possible so i talked to the folks at that this car [TS]

  division directly because i could not find a small discovered so you know how [TS]

  this works [TS]

  something happens way to apple and the new story is Apple computers person to [TS]

  flame that's like the next day like was one computer lab it was very controlled [TS]

  circumstance they had no Apple computers person if I'm so the apple releases [TS]

  these updates and then the engineer at cisco alright sweet alice is the [TS]

  division he writes up AI the guys in charge this team would is credited with [TS]

  the discovery by apple so it meant he is responsible disclosure reported months [TS]

  ago Apple patches all over the school he breaks up a very detailed blog post that [TS]

  explains the severity and it has some details about exactly what gets dumped [TS]

  you put some you know [TS]

  core dump information in your traces and things and people like you know the [TS]

  register and Forbes whatever right these it stage fright for Apple's I know which [TS]

  is android still is wrestling with stage fright which was an mms deliverable [TS]

  among other factors of a way to you send a deliciously formatted message for [TS]

  android 2.2 and every subsequent system and the problem with upgrading older [TS]

  Android systems and on and on right so stage fright remains it's possible [TS]

  there's a couple hundred million Android devices that remains susceptible to the [TS]

  stage fright a big deal and there were viruses that were discovered in the wild [TS]

  within I think week so the first stage right right release and then months [TS]

  later some more for under devices that couldn't be patched this touches on one [TS]

  of my [TS]

  a very most precious pet themes in and what I write about like in media [TS]

  criticism which is movable false equivalence yeah and and it's a huge [TS]

  issue in politics and it's definitely an issue in the tech world to and it's this [TS]

  idea that to be fair or or Senate more cynically to to sensationalize the story [TS]

  because I think everybody knows that putting apple into headlines get more [TS]

  clicks it so Android had stage fright our has stage fright you know it has [TS]

  this issue that is actually being exploited in the world and there are [TS]

  lots not most you know I'm not nobody's saying that every android phone out [TS]

  there is hacked or even most of them are but there are many people with android [TS]

  devices that have malware and perhaps even unbeknownst to the user because of [TS]

  this exploit then Apple has this suit you know Cisco discovers this you know [TS]

  security problem in Apple's operating systems and it's presented as though [TS]

  it's you know like you just said they are actually calling it apple's version [TS]

  of stage fright [TS]

  even though there aren't any no next . right the wrap that writes great [TS]

  narrative and there are similarities except sandboxing and code signing and [TS]

  so forth there's a lot of spaces that are different in terms of Android deals [TS]

  with incoming everything or malicious software that's trying to execute on a [TS]

  system this other protections even if you managed to deliver a payload you [TS]

  made us crash process right so that you know I talked to the engineer i went [TS]

  back and forth through email had to go through the PR folks and you know it's [TS]

  like is there a proof of concept because with stage fright the researchers we did [TS]

  that deliver an effective price of proof of concept showing not just they could [TS]

  crash a process or overwrite a buffer but they can actually commit acts and [TS]

  gain root if i recall some Android systems you get root and some behalf you [TS]

  could take control of the microphone and things like that so there are ways to [TS]

  get access to system resources even if you couldn't potentially gain root and [TS]

  the talus researcher said you know in fact we have a no provable exploit that [TS]

  allows us to do nasty stuff [TS]

  with safari know is 10 and the reporting had been about ms but they're here they [TS]

  have no expert for that they think there are some major hurdles in the way that [TS]

  might be able to overcome they weren't focusing on that because the news is [TS]

  gonna patch they focused on something where they had a path already do it they [TS]

  suspect the Safari + OS 10 pathway would also let them exploit iOS and safari [TS]

  mobile safari they haven't tested it but everything seems the same they think [TS]

  there may be a few more bars in the way there to that can be overcome this is [TS]

  all with the unpatched version so you know the truth is this is that is going [TS]

  back to the beginning is it's a severe bug or a few years ago Apple had some [TS]

  Wi-Fi bugs where you could drive by and do terrible things to someone's Wi-Fi [TS]

  network and gain access and you know do all kinds of stuff to an airport base [TS]

  station or Mac I'm sorry Macintosh's if you could ask a naxx you know just put [TS]

  physical proximity and it's tara tests especially terrifying because you don't [TS]

  actually have to be in their house you just have to be within range of their [TS]

  Wi-Fi which could be you know in a car in front of the house [TS]

  yes but high gain antenna at the window and you can do it and those they were [TS]

  patched and people have the same argument then this happened since I [TS]

  think a lot of times is how severe is if the threat is over it's like well this [TS]

  is very severe we don't know the it's it's severe as exploit you know these [TS]

  things really are doing something really terribly wrong they shouldn't do and [TS]

  shouldn't be in the code that's true and conceivably it's a pathway the next [TS]

  steps are in the lab or no [TS]

  now where could be developed that would then take advantage of it we could find [TS]

  out how severe in practice it is in theory it's very severe but because of [TS]

  responsible disclosure and apple being able to patch it in a timely manner [TS]

  there's no evidence anything is in the wild that said this is the kind of thing [TS]

  when the was it a blanket on the group in Italy that had all its files have [TS]

  been expecting a hacking team hack something like that yeah those guys and [TS]

  it went through some other outfits that leaked information these you know [TS]

  there's all these companies its individual researchers and companies [TS]

  that exist to find 0 days and sell them to governments right and governments are [TS]

  also working on similar things [TS]

  it's possible things like this are already completely known even to [TS]

  multiple parties and they're being deployed against some Iranian official [TS]

  or American official or chinese official or a company for some [TS]

  you know for a industrial espionage it's being specifically deployed in a very [TS]

  quiet way in which allows them to exfiltrate information or or you know to [TS]

  tap communications but the idea it's not if that's the case that has been found [TS]

  you maybe we'll now the biggest known virus signatures will get updated people [TS]

  like it so it's not in the wild [TS]

  yeah there's the the most obvious source of malware the one that we see and hear [TS]

  about most often is the one that sort of stuff that sort of out in the open where [TS]

  it's it's just almost like you almost want to say like more like common [TS]

  criminals who either find exploits like this that you can go through you know a [TS]

  webpage or certainly you know email click link you know click this link in [TS]

  an email and if you're using a certain type of computer that has known exploit [TS]

  just by clicking the link you know your your you've got malware on your computer [TS]

  and what does the malware do a lot of times it's setups like a botnet or [TS]

  something like that and it's it's like a shotgun approach to the crime where [TS]

  they're trying to just get hundreds and thousands of random people they don't [TS]

  even care who you are to run this and you know it's still your bitcoins or [TS]

  whatever they want to do that's the you know the stuff that we see the part that [TS]

  you know it the paranoid part of my mind is the well what about the Chinese [TS]

  government the Chinese government would be you know who are they employing [TS]

  people to find exploits like this [TS]

  I of course they're right i mean who does anybody believe they're not [TS]

  does anybody think the NSA doesn't have a really really smart people doing this [TS]

  exactly the same thing you know and then there's the company's not just [TS]

  government but companies like the hacking team that you mentioned that [TS]

  sell their services [TS]

  you know two governments and stuff like that but you know find these 0 days and [TS]

  then hold you know instead of letting them loose they they're like a precious [TS]

  commodity i mean i think last year somebody was actually like in the public [TS]

  was saying you know what I we're going to pay a million dollars if you can find [TS]

  and exploit for iOS 9 or so [TS]

  yeah yeah I mean you know a legitimate I mean sort of legitimate I mean it's sort [TS]

  of it [TS]

  scummy underside of the world but you know at a serious offer legitimate offer [TS]

  four million dollars if you could deliver them and exploit that would let [TS]

  them do I was Lindsay just that jailbreaking often false that registers [TS]

  companies and make a lot of money off third-party app stores for jailbroken [TS]

  iphones I think and so there's money to be made if you get the the exploit first [TS]

  the jailbreak pathways first some of them self jailbreaking is funny [TS]

  jailbreaking went for a very interesting enterprise in the early days something [TS]

  that is now all meshed in viruses and criminal enterprise and so for him [TS]

  either still I'm sure legit people out there doing jailbreaking but everything [TS]

  I read about it makes it sound like you don't know when you download the [TS]

  jailbreak tools I what they're going to do i was talking to a friend of the show [TS]

  Craig Hockenberry at yes WWDC and we were laughing thinking like reminiscing [TS]

  to 10 years ago when the iphone was knew about how we all jailbroken phones like [TS]

  yeah we all jailbroke our phones at the moment for the the first seat for [TS]

  conference because it did somebody had created like a the lights-out game there [TS]

  and it was really nice game i guess just like there was no it was no there was no [TS]

  xcode for iOS yet I mean do some really smart example [TS]

  yeah and there were no public no public tools at all to create iOS software and [TS]

  somehow my god and and Craig eventually you know why during the jailbreak Eric [TS]

  got a terrific working so I kind of course so of course i jailbroke my [TS]

  phones and then I had a iphone with terrific on it and this is before you [TS]

  could you know have apps I mean of course i jailbroke but it was you know [TS]

  it just seemed it was a lot easier to innocent days better when it was just us [TS]

  kids playing around with the phone sidebar counselor eff has just filed a [TS]

  lawsuit about section 1201 of the dmca which are sure you're aware of i saw the [TS]

  announcement yeah it's this video dmca Digital Millennium Copyright Act which i [TS]

  think is a largely on [TS]

  constitutional piece of legislation has never been fully tested at the Supreme [TS]

  Court ever got his hands on it [TS]

  I gotta say there's so many things in there that that i give $MONEY for the [TS]

  privilege commercial speech at the in the face of free speech and whenever [TS]

  I've seen anything like it has been decided by high court's you know either [TS]

  appeals or up the Supreme Court it's usually even if I don't agree with the [TS]

  decision entirely usually opens up the way for more speech be more encoded [TS]

  speech sort of now be encoded at a certain level of going to the court [TS]

  systems even if it's not fully understood so one provision of the dmca [TS]

  is this reverse engineering thing related to digital rights management if [TS]

  you put drm on something as a manufacturer it's illegal and you can be [TS]

  sent to jail for years for 4 i'm sorry for years not four years i forgot see if [TS]

  it's like five years like if you reverse engineering even for yourself like in [TS]

  the privacy of your own home FBI breaks and you've been breaking drm and not [TS]

  distributing it you go to jail and there's a provision called section 1201 [TS]

  which is the most hilarious thing in the world every three years more or less the [TS]

  Library of Congress held hearings not been personally the last you know we [TS]

  just got a new one in this awesome the Senate actually approved the [TS]

  confirmation the Library of Congress understands technology has run a library [TS]

  system she's the voice of the future this is gonna be great the guy has been [TS]

  charged for decades has been kind of a know-nothing light just terrible in [TS]

  terms of Technology I great terms of books anyway so the section 1201 [TS]

  hearings it's a circus you have the process described in the law is terrible [TS]

  the library of congress created a process that basically people who object [TS]

  to limitations and want to get them removed temporarily only for a [TS]

  three-year period have to essentially file something like a legal brief [TS]

  although can be in more plain language explaining why there is a legitimate [TS]

  public interest to be served in providing exemption and then the library [TS]

  and cost of the circus they have hearings and people pray through and [TS]

  they testify and their last time I think there are 47 different sub group of [TS]

  items being presented and it's just and it's you know farming it's companies [TS]

  like john deere who have drm on their tractors automakers [TS]

  you game makers the printer companies as well as the software and you know like [TS]

  iphone locking the rest of it and then there's people who you know file these [TS]

  objections and there's back and forth and then the library of congress issues [TS]

  a set of rules about what's going to be exempted if anything in the next year . [TS]

  a ridiculous process so the eff is suing basically on the unconstitutionality of [TS]

  the of this provision and if it were struck down or even minimize it was [TS]

  dramatically enhance the ability of people to do self-repair which is you [TS]

  know what Halloween's that I fix it [TS]

  he's been a huge proponent deeply active in this process and you can read a lot [TS]

  of stuff about right to repair that relates a lot to do around these days I [TS]

  i did specific provision in the d digital dmca 90cm he do that digital [TS]

  because it was Millennium Copyright with Sonny care of Sonny Bono was involved in [TS]

  that one but maybe my Sonny Bono law also that's different I it specifically [TS]

  it more or less outlaws backwards reverse-engineering how drm works and [TS]

  the reverse engineering is it you know here you've got this thing you own it [TS]

  you are you allowed to try to figure out how it works and and that's you know [TS]

  that's I think that's been considered part of you know I guess free speech but [TS]

  certainly seems like something that you know I don't know the engineering the [TS]

  objects to we've got this magic thing called you no copyright for our movies [TS]

  and music and it gets a special exemption for this that nothing else has [TS]

  yeah and you know i just learned something in it and that's terrible [TS]

  because it keeps innovation you how did everything interesting happen that's [TS]

  going on you know some people . two giant corporate research labs so many [TS]

  interesting things we're doing a technology came from people tinkering [TS]

  that little stuff that they took apart right i saw Kate McKinnon who I love [TS]

  we're going to talk about Ghostbusters later right we'll talk because i have [TS]

  not seen the movie what movie will talk about it earlier [TS]

  okay yeah i am one of my one of the few people still watches SNL i watch it and [TS]

  learn and I wife we fast we tape it we watch it like a few days later we [TS]

  fast-forward through the bad stuff there are a bunch of [TS]

  the great performers a lot of people our age have given up an SNL longer okay I'm [TS]

  not we're we're big SNL fans here oh good yeah I think it's hit or miss as [TS]

  you know sometimes you're watching entire upstairs like where I don't even [TS]

  know what happened [TS]

  another time you're crying for its always been like that [TS]

  it's always better totally right i have this i have the same memory of no wasn't [TS]

  always thought was so Kate McKennon you love her there because you watch it [TS]

  she's an incredible mimic and I think she's great and ghostbusters [TS]

  she is such a senior interviewed I just think she is so great and worth [TS]

  beginning of her breakout part of her career like Kristen Wiig already had ran [TS]

  this is a so kate mccann and I see this interview she's on the red carpet for [TS]

  Ghostbusters in this tiny little girl must be like eight or nine is doing [TS]

  interviews and chic ask a mechanic question Katie can look so touched in [TS]

  lobby and the books that are very seriously and give to this answer in the [TS]

  girls said what it was like to work on all this cool technology in the movie [TS]

  Kate McKinnon said when I was a kid I used to love to take things apart radio [TS]

  things that look at the circuit boards or whatever in this whole movie walk-in [TS]

  everything is circuit boards and it's just like it was a dream was like my [TS]

  childhood again something like that and i'm thinking that is the kind of thing [TS]

  that kids kids today they don't know they're not encouraged to take things [TS]

  apart they could actually violating the law if they were to know the software [TS]

  side to circumvent things literally this kids could be violating federal law for [TS]

  doing stuff that you are I did yeah [TS]

  and although millions and millions of other children is certainly the case [TS]

  that the overwhelming majority of all people have almost no curiosity about [TS]

  how things work which is fine with right but for the minority of people who are [TS]

  curious about how things work those also tend to be the sort of people who create [TS]

  new things you know and I mean you could I think you could find that with [TS]

  creative people in like you said entertainers even entertainers that it's [TS]

  just like a mindset of i would like to take that apart i said is very [TS]

  refinishing tables to she's got a crafty aspect or she does [TS]

  um so my take on it is that I i think it's it is object philosophically to the [TS]

  idea that you should outlaw being able to take things apart and figure out how [TS]

  they work but on the flip side i also think that the people who make things [TS]

  have every right to make him [TS]

  as difficult to take apart or is you know you know like in the case with [TS]

  apple and cellphone encryption that if Apple can figure out a way to [TS]

  mathematically make the contents of a phone effectively unbreakable encryption [TS]

  wise they have the right to do that and the NSA has a right to try to find the [TS]

  holes in their logic and yeah I don't think manufacturers should be obliged to [TS]

  make it easy i think that could be a marketing strategy and some do that i [TS]

  was talking to a company that I can't reveal that said because of various [TS]

  regulations they're not allowed to promote the fact that their product is [TS]

  modifiable because it would actually put them in violation and put new regulatory [TS]

  framework [TS]

  however they can make their product by a modifiable including the firmware and [TS]

  they just can't say anything about it so they're actually doing everything they [TS]

  can [TS]

  a great example is that I can talk about its chumby which is funny how long is [TS]

  one of the plaintiffs in the eff suit is coming out a bunny lose the singapore in [TS]

  singapore close to change and all the time he's a hands-on designer has been [TS]

  designing an open laptop this is fascinating is not a little ideology in [TS]

  it but it's also an incredible technical exercise he was one of the people behind [TS]

  chumby which was originally this kind of soft alarm clock that you could make [TS]

  apps for maybe two hours ago [TS]

  yeah he went through a lot of revisions it's still out there company so they [TS]

  left everything in such a state that when the product didn't succeed people [TS]

  could keep it alive and then a new company came in to support it and that [TS]

  companies now making new chunky stuff and running the servers because enough [TS]

  was open and available i don't think the whole thing was open source of [TS]

  forgetting all the details but they left everything open enough and then I think [TS]

  when it was sitting down they opened it even further and like that was a [TS]

  wonderful things as a company you could choose to do that but you can also [TS]

  choose to be no rat bastards or pursue security let's say whatever you want and [TS]

  not make it easy that's totally I mean I don't I don't think being there's a [TS]

  difference there like should Apple allow third-party apps that are not Sultanate [TS]

  storage it's a non appstore apps [TS]

  that's a whole interesting debate and there's an argument to be made that they [TS]

  should be required even if they have to put hurdles in and switches and you have [TS]

  to agree you're gonna void your warranty or whatever that's separate from should [TS]

  Apple [TS]

  its firmware be you know hackable that's a very different situation they they [TS]

  shouldn't pursue people who have broken into it that's where the drm issue lies [TS]

  rather than they should make it easy which is a sort of philosophical [TS]

  ideological situation [TS]

  alright and that's where I disagree with the judge's name wines from the mac fix [TS]

  it was so yeah I yeah I fix all rights it like the pentalobe screw thing was a [TS]

  big that was an inflection point right is right [TS]

  Apple switch two pentalobe screws it was hard to get such a screw driver than I [TS]

  fix it made it which is great but Kyle maintain I think that final right yeah [TS]

  he he he said apples doing this to make it hard to repair some people said maybe [TS]

  it's because it's easier to do machine creation but that was your machine [TS]

  assembly that's who knows but it definitely made it harder repair and [TS]

  then you know kind of screwdrivers got made and now it's possible that i agree [TS]

  that Apple probably does some things to make it harder for third-party Ferb [TS]

  consumers and third parties to make changes in other things i think it's [TS]

  they don't care they just engineer it because they know they can repair it so [TS]

  they don't give a damn it's hard because they'll take care of it right i think [TS]

  that there's that it's funny because that's a perfect example and I'd I try [TS]

  to be like this as much as i can so i disagree with with kyle on it on his [TS]

  take on this but I'm intrigued by his argument and ya know ya know I don't [TS]

  think that I don't just say this guy's an idiot I i disagree with them i do [TS]

  believe that he's wrong but i always do enjoy reading his pieces arguing about [TS]

  who's pushing he pushes the he pushes the envelope in a way that's good for [TS]

  everybody even if you disagree with them [TS]

  there's nothing wrong with the idea that Apple could roll back to Phillips head [TS]

  screws like that doesn't make things worse for anyone even if you disagree [TS]

  with why they switch the pendulum I want to . since we're sidebar suicide bombing [TS]

  cyber there's a great piece about warranties and motherboard last month [TS]

  and if you saw this how Sony Microsoft and other gadget makers violate federal [TS]

  warranty law and i'm going to send you a URL is a great piece [TS]

  I never knew this most of all the things that's a break the seal and you violate [TS]

  weren't here actually either illegal or unenforceable [TS]

  I had no idea the widest already there 97 lock all the Magnusson moss Warranty [TS]

  Act federal law says you can open your electronics without voiding the warranty [TS]

  regardless of what the language of that warranty says people should read this [TS]

  because i was at my mind blown every single hard drive ever purchased has a [TS]

  sticker like that somewhere on it [TS]

  mhm but i always thought that it was kind of reasonable for like a hard drive [TS]

  because it especially in the spinning disk ear if you open up if you get to [TS]

  the point where we open up and expose the disc and it and it picks up dust and [TS]

  then doesn't work right well why shouldn't your want to do yeah it's not [TS]

  that but it's the thing is the warranty isn't de facto violated by the by [TS]

  breaking the seal and that the thing and or even repair that the the article [TS]

  notes they got some great you know liability lawyers better lawyers talk [TS]

  about is the manufacturer has to prove that you're whatever you did cause the [TS]

  field haha gotcha that's a fact [TS]

  so they can do that they can say there's just on the drive wasn't originally it [TS]

  works when you got it so screw and I see that it was going back to Kyle whines I [TS]

  i think his argument would be bolstered if he stopped attributing malice to [TS]

  apple and simply stated why he thinks these would be better devices with [TS]

  standard screws and I know one of his other Bugaboos is the use of glue [TS]

  oh yeah you know and did you know make that just make the argument that this [TS]

  would be a better device for everybody if you know they stopped using glue and [TS]

  stuff like that and you instead of saying it that they're doing this to [TS]

  make it hard to repair Apple does not care about the repair shops they don't [TS]

  yeah they did give know shits it's not me yeah and yeah it's also like this is [TS]

  a case I this is I mr. not a sidebar swear to god I'm like the biggest [TS]

  parentheses nesters you know but while take Iran this great piece set i think [TS]

  that 538 I think that's right about these great i love this writing and he [TS]

  wrote this thing about how IMDb movies movie scores are are sunk by mail trolls [TS]

  because a to the analysis and you can see that men more highly downvote orchid [TS]

  poor ratings to movies that women like better than in women do not do the same [TS]

  thing [TS]

  mail films films that men like better so you can look at films that more men have [TS]

  seen this gender split you know and so forth and that you can do that analysis [TS]

  and figured out and the article is really interesting but the one thing I [TS]

  disagree with them as he was attributing malice he said effectively that men are [TS]

  trolling as opposed to internalizing their own toxic masculinity and voting [TS]

  stuff down because they thought no one should see it sort of ghostbusters thing [TS]

  again like well if you haven't seen the movie and you're voting 23 your kind of [TS]

  the troll but some people may have been it may have seen it you don't know how [TS]

  many haven't seen it how have and whatever I feel like the same thing with [TS]

  a bit with people who attribute things to apple if you know if you could pull [TS]

  it out and say I talk to are you know in a plunger goes public is i worked at [TS]

  Apple for 20 years and the thing I did to screw repair for right then you can [TS]

  see melis my job was to make it a difficult or impossible to do you [TS]

  replace your screen with a third-party facility because people want is the [TS]

  hundred-dollar replacement fee i was the extra glue engineer at apple continuing [TS]

  glue engineer before this is good i think an online i want to go back to the [TS]

  the security bug ya so all the way all the way back to this this responsible [TS]

  for you which is called responsible it like i don't know i made with this face [TS]

  like responsible disclosure . yeah alright wait for it so a in some aspect [TS]

  though it's not responsible because the only things that are updated are the [TS]

  very latest update to the OS I'm talking to you right now on through an imac that [TS]

  has not been updated because i didn't feel like restarting my mac before we [TS]

  started the shot right right my the mac i'm talking to you on right now is not [TS]

  updated my iphone is I thoroughly doubt that my sons are wife's iphones are I'd [TS]

  pretty sure my ipad is not because i haven't I know it might be cuz i'm [TS]

  running iOS 10 beta so I don't know but I said I i have devices i'm technically [TS]

  adept and I into the news and I have devices that are updated yet and let [TS]

  alone [TS]

  anybody who hasn't updated too [TS]

  el capitan yet if you're running a love you know LOL what was the one before [TS]

  assembly i don't have to disseminate to keep looking it up you know you're still [TS]

  you're still vulnerable and I don't know if Apple you know nobody knows because [TS]

  apple won't say but whether Apple's going to do a security update for those [TS]

  things either so it's nonsense i often wonder about disclosing these things you [TS]

  know whether it's it's good or bad [TS]

  well there's that yeah there's a couple different aspects to it right if there's [TS]

  a zero-day you know which just for the benefit of listen 20 days and exploit [TS]

  that is known as then something is patch so the patch comes out and it's known [TS]

  that it's in a mountain malware is being used right so has to be patched [TS]

  immediately because you have to protect people are inactive danger so this is [TS]

  not a zero-day there's no no no attacks in the wild haven't seen anything last [TS]

  couple days suggested anyone had managed to explain this in any Broadway and we [TS]

  know that because Mac users and iOS users if it didn't send out as general [TS]

  malware would have been reporting I've been hijacked or whatever because now [TS]

  we're distributors are not subtle typically be ransomed me a big thing [TS]

  right now is ransomware as you know I've been running about that recently a [TS]

  couple articles on it and anyway so we so this isn't a zero-day but this is the [TS]

  tricky part like if you don't think that it's in the wild like you're working for [TS]

  a security company there's no reports of this coming out that even analyzing you [TS]

  found it printed proactively in advance or respectively and you know the patches [TS]

  and made and distributed so anyone can get it has it that removes the financial [TS]

  incentive for any criminal to criminal organization to try to find and exploit [TS]

  because the window is closing so fast like you know twenty-five percent of its [TS]

  closed the first two hours and if Apple pushes update so heavily makes it hard [TS]

  to ignore them especially in iOS and other platforms that the odds of having [TS]

  a target are very small so you spend weeks three months developing the [TS]

  payload of the exploit technology to deliver the correct play load and by [TS]

  then 93% of people of update and you have you know a couple hundred thousand [TS]

  people you have to reach and even spam and phishing doesn't make it worthwhile [TS]

  to send out the messages to reach a fraction of them so the economics of it [TS]

  are bad [TS]

  when it's 90 days with a zero-day you disclose because it's so dangerous and [TS]

  want to run to patch right away and the economics their change instantly too but [TS]

  there's exploits out there that will be trying to be put out as fast as they can [TS]

  be four people patch [TS]

  ah let me take a break here and thank our first sponsor i love this is a brand [TS]

  new sponsor and it is a great app it's called boom it's a mac app from global [TS]

  delight have you ever wished that the audio playing three Mac could be richer [TS]

  crisper and just better if you like listening to music movies videos through [TS]

  your Mac or any other audio then you may have searched for ways to boost the [TS]

  volume on your Mac but haven't found anything yet well that's what boom does [TS]

  it's an amazing audio enhancer for the Mac it's simple it's gorgeous as [TS]

  great-looking you I these guys globalite have always always done really really [TS]

  high-end you know classic in the Mac Developer attention to detail and and [TS]

  all the icons look great and everything like that so it's just a volume booster [TS]

  that's it just works on a system-wide level so you don't have to install it [TS]

  like inside act apps not a plug-in or anything like that and anything you plan [TS]

  your Mac suddenly sounds amplified it works with headphones works for speakers [TS]

  and in the best part this [TS]

  its a Mac world best of show winner this is an app that has been renowned it [TS]

  really it you know it sounds almost like snake oil but it really does work it's [TS]

  one the macworld best of show back when macworld was a show and here's the best [TS]

  part anyway I keep talking circle here but the best part is right now for a [TS]

  very limited . i don't quite know how limited the period is so if you hear it [TS]

  you better go get it now it is thirty-three percent off in their store [TS]

  it's just 999 usually 15 bucks you where you go here's their URL it's a bit ly [TS]

  URL so go to be IT . ly italy / boom to Mac that's the digit 2 bit ly / boom to [TS]

  mac and you'll get more info they have a seven day free trial can you believe [TS]

  that [TS]

  seven day free trial what it it's like in the world of the app store it's like [TS]

  you forget about free trials well [TS]

  what that's why the mac is awesome seven day free trial try it [TS]

  listen to it see that you liked it and then you can get it for thirty-three [TS]

  percent off thats boom to that's what the reason the two is anywhere else is [TS]

  version 2 of the a boom to thirty-three percent off italy / boom to mak a great [TS]

  app I'm we were talking before about the sort of miss can I don't know what you'd [TS]

  call it but the idea that mac users are smug insufferably smug on security [TS]

  issues so true and it that's another one that's sort of like a pet issue of mine [TS]

  is is the incessant inevitable need to boil everything down to a binary it's [TS]

  either this or that either the mac is completely invulnerable to stop malware [TS]

  and security exploits or the mac is every bit as vulnerable and exploitable [TS]

  is every other system that's out there I when the truth is in between it is [TS]

  nuanced you know and it was a lot that I you still see it and part of it is that [TS]

  iOS is so spectacularly popular and such a lucrative target but in the old days [TS]

  pre iphone it was always almost always boil down to an argument that the mac [TS]

  you know windows has all this malware problems all these issues and and all [TS]

  this you know that the and I don't even think it was snake well i think it was a [TS]

  reasonable thing that you know informed users would agree with was that it was [TS]

  considered a just standard practice to install antivirus on your Windows PC [TS]

  that if you didn't you were a fool and you're probably going to get exploited [TS]

  oh yeah would you just all virtual windows machine on your mac and [TS]

  parallels and then it launched it and we get infected before you can install the [TS]

  antivirus software it's not up to me it's it's no exaggeration and then you [TS]

  Mac users informed mac users like myself would say well i-i-i don't run [TS]

  any antivirus on my mac and in fact i recommend I i don't recommend my family [TS]

  members do and I don't think you should either and I don't think you need to and [TS]

  then they would say what you're an idiot because the only reason the Mac doesn't [TS]

  get exploited is that it's just it's every bit as vulnerable as Windows but [TS]

  it's too small for the malware people to care about and it's like you can't [TS]

  disprove that that's one of those it's like a I don't know what the rhetorical [TS]

  for the description of that is but it's it's sort of like a straw man argument [TS]

  you can't knock it down you can't just proved it [TS]

  hypothetical like that yeah there's no way to prove it otherwise except if the [TS]

  mac . as popular as windows and that's what happened that sort of happened with [TS]

  iOS right iOS has you know hundreds of millions or i guess a billion active [TS]

  devices there might be now that I think about it there might be more iOS devices [TS]

  in use than windows devices i don't know that Michael but I think I think there's [TS]

  more windows because windows things are never this thing right people running [TS]

  windows 95 start someplace so they're not it's in the ballpark probably [TS]

  running an air traffic controller something it is in the ballpark [TS]

  yeah and it didn't happen [TS]

  I mean now there is malware for mac there is malware that attacks iOS but [TS]

  it's never been as rampant a problem as it has been on other platforms [TS]

  yeah it's I i I've always said i should say always but I said increasingly it's [TS]

  not goodbye for increasing like Apple was a weird target we have it-- were the [TS]

  first viruses come to the computers the first widespread the worms and things [TS]

  was through a max right we had that the one that you stuck a discounted rate the [TS]

  floppy the other thing I just that in my notes here i do you remember what your [TS]

  mat there wasn't going to be there was a time when I did run antivirus on my mac [TS]

  and i would recommend everybody do it was called disinfectant and hear all of [TS]

  that has no it was one guy it was like a guy up in Seattle right [TS]

  oh sure so right because it he charged for know it's free but it wasn't great [TS]

  was as good as the commercial solutions for a long time John Norse dead [TS]

  no that's good memory i think that's right very nice guy if I recall to [TS]

  really nice guy i mean like [TS]

  it's just amazing that it was just it was just for utility united states like [TS]

  a net you would North dead John overstepped just missing its so there's [TS]

  this homepage on your stats homepage scary is I i will put this in the show [TS]

  notes [TS]

  John Nienstedt homepage it was amazing you would it was in it you ran it it [TS]

  didn't slit seemingly didn't slow your Mac down at all had no adverse effects [TS]

  and it was updated on a regular basis with all the new viruses that would [TS]

  spread around and it would identify them and block them but yeah that was like an [TS]

  insidious when I remember we drexel was absolutely hit by it was it was it was [TS]

  it was so insidious it was a virus that would spread just by inserting a floppy [TS]

  disk into an already infected Christian great piece of engineering for the day [TS]

  yeah but yeah so here's my thing so Apple didn't necessarily their the Apple [TS]

  was never necessarily had any innovation like address space layout randomization [TS]

  ALS r which is a great technique use so that you can predictably as an hour [TS]

  developer nowhere part of the system is going to be located in memory [TS]

  necessarily and more ASL are you do across everything the harder it is to [TS]

  target memory location it has something happened and so that you know that [TS]

  windows i want to say Microsoft energies that years before and they needed to [TS]

  before always 10 was much more mystery but the Apple wasn't necessary innovator [TS]

  in that what they were an innovator in was accidental things that works right [TS]

  so Apple going to free updates force operating system you know first super [TS]

  cheap and then completely free and all the free incremental ones and the way in [TS]

  which you can do incremental update OS 10 without typically destroying your [TS]

  system i know there's some bad releases and I had problems over the years but [TS]

  they create an environment which people were expected to run updates and [TS]

  typically stay up-to-date you might have been no using 10.6 . not 10.7 for a [TS]

  while but then you switch over and when you look at over the years as you looked [TS]

  at the adoption curve it's ridiculous compared to any other operating system [TS]

  as people move up so fast and software developers of course have the issue of [TS]

  compatibility know that that's one thing so there are [TS]

  that the long tail of older versions by number of people running a number of [TS]

  computers rather of older versions always 10 is very small compared to most [TS]

  other things you can android to android and there's this incredible distribution [TS]

  because android devices when they were sold originally the first generations as [TS]

  opposed to iOS it was very difficult or impossible to get beyond the version [TS]

  even the subversion like to . to that you had installed that gives you a great [TS]

  target because you know there's going to be a hundred million devices out there [TS]

  running android 2.2 for as long as the devices work so you have that target to [TS]

  attack forever Android as opposed to us 10 or iOS didn't have a good pathway [TS]

  directly to users any windows has this of course is direct pathway and [TS]

  eventually help to provide security updates so Android users are sort of [TS]

  abandoned google has been working on this for years to create an effective [TS]

  way of rapid turnaround for certain kinds of security issues switching to [TS]

  apps is one way one of my colleagues over at green bar in the idg family [TS]

  they're though I was telling the other day like Google having a messaging app [TS]

  you know hangouts and messenger called mr. they can update the app if there's a [TS]

  security problem the app the app can take care of it but they can update the [TS]

  entire system because someone's running an outdated or run fashionable phone so [TS]

  Apple I think the upgrade cycle can always reduces the target of potential [TS]

  infections whether it's with iOS which is a monolithic you know ecosystem as [TS]

  opposed to android or its with OS 10 where they push stuff out and I think it [TS]

  had it seems like a pretty fast pretty fast way and get people up the next [TS]

  version so there's never a lot of people that you can easily target and with [TS]

  Windows you people running hundreds of millions people running pretty Windows [TS]

  10 versions you have hundreds of millions of android users may be several [TS]

  hundred million running pre marshmallow 6 . x versions right so those targets [TS]

  are so lovely that as a if your email or developer and your criminal and you're [TS]

  trying to hit the biggest target why would you do it for iOS or OS 10 if it's [TS]

  going to be hard or there aren't enough people it's it's again if you're doing [TS]

  that shotgun approach of I want to see at least I want to do the amount of work [TS]

  and get my [TS]

  scummy little piece of malware on as many devices as possible i'm going to [TS]

  send a billion phishing messages and i know that i'm going to catch of that [TS]

  like a hundred million Android 2.2 users it's their owners is easy relatively [TS]

  whereas if you want if you're in the business of targeting specific [TS]

  individuals at the best of a government agency [TS]

  you totally different yeah i mean look at the threat for the hacking team that [TS]

  revealed how many different kinds of attacks that were against right Macs and [TS]

  iOS so you know it's a different category is something to be concerned [TS]

  about but it's also things like Apple didn't have a native mail program for [TS]

  the longest time remember then they come out with me all the male's kind of [TS]

  crappy but it also by time Apple came up with own mail program for OS 10 it was [TS]

  already diversity so you couldn't as a malware author target a specific popular [TS]

  male programs problems the mail programs were deeply integrated like they were [TS]

  windows so you couldn't cause like JavaScript to run an attached message [TS]

  without someone clicking on it in eudora or whatever right and then mail came out [TS]

  apple already knew this was a problem to the engineer something that was less [TS]

  embedded in more separate so you can still have stuff that would go wrong but [TS]

  it was a little more limited set of activities and happened with outlook [TS]

  integration and Microsoft's basically spent the last 20 years [TS]

  pulling out the hooks that built deeply into its systems that allowed things [TS]

  that happen when they should have been sandbox or so old that I specifically [TS]

  you say that and it sounds it sounds so old [TS]

  that's the first pic max ship without an email [TS]

  Andy and I have 2w I knew that Apple didn't make one but I was like wait did [TS]

  they may be ship like netscape's weirdo email or something i said no they didn't [TS]

  ship any of them didn't even order the 1i was used or user I'm okay after I [TS]

  mean outlook i think i use outlook for a while in the office suite [TS]

  I don't know that was part of was that part of the deal two jobs and engage [TS]

  agree as part of the Microsoft investment that Apple wasn't going to [TS]

  release its own mail software now no okay because that's what I look [TS]

  existence we played office or they can sell your door right there are a bunch [TS]

  of other mail programs still there's still a remarkable number of email [TS]

  programs available and new ones being developed [TS]

  I don't I don't wanna I don't wanna [TS]

  I don't want to resort to google here i want either me or you to remember it was [TS]

  the one said Spencer's team created i went on to microsoft and created the [TS]

  good version of outlook and wasn't note was a call and guy ever used guy [TS]

  kawasaki was big male mate [TS]

  no no it was you will love it by some type of pie was it a virus product at [TS]

  one point even Clarence had an email product in it [TS]

  I don't you know i'll tell you i use mail Smith today I i actually wrote you [TS]

  still do i wrote a programmer article for macro recently called old software [TS]

  that we all still use I got so many lovely comments from people shipping [TS]

  with these i use quicken 2007by use mail Smith which is updated for compatibility [TS]

  i use CSS editor for mac rabbit which doesn't develop any more for doing CSS [TS]

  tweaking on live sites i have this whole set of old software that's that's still [TS]

  either being tiny compatibility updates or manages to work under the current [TS]

  environment and i'll cry when it stops and people chimed in with all this offer [TS]

  these that's sometimes like 10 plus years old that they've just been 11 [TS]

  later a leveller they upgraded it very nice the people involved into a to be [TS]

  compatible with El Capitan but level later I don't think was really changed [TS]

  for several years it's a vital piece of podcast no audio normalization [TS]

  equalization software I week all the thought I have I did sheet google and i [TS]

  want to check Spencer's linkedin page it was fog city software Fox yes and the [TS]

  product was called emailer MN and it was purchased by apple in March 1996 and [TS]

  became claris emailer so Apple owned it because apple owns or I guess Clarence [TS]

  doesn't exist anymore and I guess it's filemaker it's like let's find out and [TS]

  some it was funny and apple only the email client but didn't pre install it [TS]

  on my god [TS]

  I know is because and the whole point was that until the you know again I've [TS]

  long said that to me there's really only two areas at Apple there is the original [TS]

  the era up and then starting with the next reunification that's like modern [TS]

  Apple modern Apple started with the next reunification mm and jobs coming back [TS]

  and that's why there's so many things that were different but in the in the [TS]

  original apple it was it was like explicit wasn't even implicit like I [TS]

  think Apple was explicit about it at times that they didn't want to compete [TS]

  with third-party right developers and so the mac you know it would have it had [TS]

  like what was it called back then simple text but each text iconic over now i [TS]

  think it's i remember simple text think that was later I think you're each text [TS]

  was like the built-in readme reader but it's super minimal i meanwe less way [TS]

  more minimal featured minimally featured even then txt edit today we're sorry we [TS]

  pissed about TextEdit because text said it actually has its roots right in next [TS]

  yeah i mean always you basically and text edit is a great piece of software [TS]

  no one uses and i wrote a macro piece about how great there's some features in [TS]

  it that are invaluable you can basically cannot easily get in any other unstable [TS]

  people do use it right there are it's sort of like a secure cult of people who [TS]

  love and and rightly so [TS]

  textedit including people at Apple i remember i had a meeting at Apple admit [TS]

  but over a decade ago when I was it joint it was nothing to do with daring [TS]

  fireball was you know Apple wanted to meet with us and talk about Giants [TS]

  technology and vehicle and I noticed that the it was the first time actually [TS]

  I met Michael lop in person [TS]

  oh yeah princeton repose he was there even is an apple software manager at the [TS]

  time and so we didn't know each other we weren't friends yet but we were you know [TS]

  online had a little bit of back-and-forth simply as you know he [TS]

  knew daring fireball I new ransom proposed he comes into the meeting and [TS]

  of course he's very you know such a minimalist he opens up his is that [TS]

  it was you might even been a powerbook at the time but whatever we know macbook [TS]

  powerbook of course there's nothing on screen it's just a beautiful desktop [TS]

  picture a he launches text edit and he's got one window on screen and it's text [TS]

  and that's the app he used to take notes for the meeting and I was kind of blown [TS]

  away but also not surprised at all and he was like oh of course I because again [TS]

  he said you know why use this app I use this app because it is super simple and [TS]

  it has never once crossed me I've never lost a single letter of anything I've [TS]

  ever typed in TextEdit that there's any way I don't I think this is the case in [TS]

  Japan I don't know but in Japan it used to be the left on your business card [TS]

  more important you were and at least in the eighties I'm missing a cartoon about [TS]

  this and reading about this you know you do when you're handsome business card [TS]

  Japan you hold it with two hands and you handed to them it's just you know it got [TS]

  a little bit of a ceremony about used to have no idea what people do today [TS]

  there's a comic strip at the time by all cartoonist it was about these two people [TS]

  competing for a job in Japan and striving to be whatever and one of them [TS]

  has a dreamy sigh chance I met God he handed me his business card it was [TS]

  completely black [TS]

  I don't think you know you're talking about Michael lottery so alpha had an [TS]

  email product and they didn't even pre-install it I don't think maybe they [TS]

  did at some point yes nothing bundled you know they kept their hands off in [TS]

  Microsoft integration bundling tying monopoly issue tendencies always keeping [TS]

  this market locked in for themselves whether it's business software [TS]

  productivity issues email browser that was their security downfall and I think [TS]

  they spent a lot of time backing away from that in ok oh so i just did this [TS]

  story I don't know if this is the sidebar we're still talking viruses i [TS]

  just did a piece that should be out by the time this airs for MIT technology [TS]

  review about some new research it's not it's been public for months [TS]

  a couple of research teams at different universities came up with strategies for [TS]

  fighting ransomware on windows and it was very interesting and I talked to a [TS]

  bunch of your doctor mcafee and and other folks and and the researchers and [TS]

  the thing that's hilariously well how do you stop ransomware what's you know what [TS]

  are you doing they're like well you keep your software update your install you [TS]

  know you do i run the latest patches you don't run java or flash like wait what [TS]

  about virus software like that's sort of the last stage like we had somewhere and [TS]

  most now we're now just targets incredibly low hanging fruit of which [TS]

  there still remains so much like so one of the people I spoke to said something [TS]

  like fifty percent of machines you [TS]

  just get into because they're just not it protected anyway forget antivirus [TS]

  software what the ransomware what's interesting is the developers of these [TS]

  these academics rather the two different groups took different approaches the [TS]

  fact is ransomware it works on user space files so it's actually insidious [TS]

  you don't have to gain deeper missions when I the payload is dropped and it [TS]

  runs you know a lot of ransomware is like scripts like PHP or java script [TS]

  right and you double-click of a Trojan horse that's delivered via email and it [TS]

  just start encrypting files because it doesn't need extra permission right it [TS]

  can it's their your files so they're only doing documents but there's a lot [TS]

  of Telltale's entropy and all kinds of other stuff they can monitor so that the [TS]

  approach that really cool but I was like oh that's one reason ransomware has a [TS]

  money thing at the end which is very straightforward and there's like six [TS]

  million unique variance or grin somewhere out there now because the [TS]

  modifications of a bunch of like bass families of ransomware so many different [TS]

  people are doing it [TS]

  people are doing it [TS]

  because the money is so easy but fundamentally it has that great [TS]

  advantage is not trying to get into your Colonel do something it's not trying to [TS]

  hijack your networking it's just trying to take your word documents to make them [TS]

  unreadable right it's not really fighting the system it's actually going [TS]

  with the flow of the system yeah [TS]

  oh you're something to user double-click you could you have access to all of [TS]

  these files [TS]

  yeah your my documents but we got well and it's exactly the sort of thing is [TS]

  exactly the sort of reason that Apple is you know sandboxed iOS from the start [TS]

  and is so for all the technical problems it causes for honest apps why they're so [TS]

  bent towards sandboxing on Mac as well yeah and I hear that there's a technique [TS]

  I learned that I didn't know about there's a micro virtualization is coming [TS]

  it's a step beyond sandboxing every app runs essentially its own tiny virtual [TS]

  machine which sounds crazy but bromium BR omim is one of the companies in space [TS]

  i think was it [TS]

  f-secure be has a product and it's the new thing because a lot of business [TS]

  users are basically only running a handful of apps so running them in the [TS]

  in the virtual environments are transparent to you as a user but [TS]

  essentially it's like super sandboxing right it's wild [TS]

  I did you see the story I link to it i guess i'll put it in the show notes like [TS]

  to it earlier this week or maybe last week where there was this variant of [TS]

  ransomware that doesn't actually after you pay them it doesn't give you [TS]

  oh yeah yeah so the wait for anybody who doesn't know the way ransomware working [TS]

  machine gets it by ransomware that the ransomware malware starts running and it [TS]

  starts encrypting your files and then all of a sudden you're going what you [TS]

  notice it when you go to open one of your documents and it gives you a [TS]

  dialogue and it says you've been you know you've been hit by ransomware all [TS]

  of your files are encrypted and they really are encrypted and so like if [TS]

  you'd like to try to open it and you know a text editor or something it's [TS]

  just going to be you know garbled binary stuff because it's encrypted right in [TS]

  the cantina sent via command control system that's the way it does get a [TS]

  little network access so that he is not stored on the device you can just [TS]

  extract the key cement yeah [TS]

  there's so there's some clever you know use of encryption there and then if you [TS]

  give them money by following steps x y&z who knows you know maybe they want [TS]

  Bitcoin you have to go buy bitcoin and given the Bitcoin or you know or they [TS]

  just want your credit card number or whatever [TS]

  somehow you've got to get the money and then you give them money and then they [TS]

  really do decrypt you know they give you the key and your get your files back and [TS]

  therefore in case of high-profile cases there is I remember there was a hospital [TS]

  i think in los angeles hospital that I had my ransomware and it went 17 [TS]

  thousand dollars i think the unencrypted they had to build you know that you know [TS]

  and and there's sort of a you know it's like an old almost like a political [TS]

  thing that you know that the United States government doesn't negotiate with [TS]

  terrorists and if that's your apology if you just state that is your policy of [TS]

  from we don't negotiate with with terrorists it hopefully acts as a [TS]

  deterrent to terrorists who would you know take people take us you know take [TS]

  people hostage because they you know now it's not really true that we don't [TS]

  negotiate with them but it's the policy and you can see the logic of that you [TS]

  can see the logic of what you should never pay these people for this but at a [TS]

  certain point it might have been worth it for if it was critical enough [TS]

  information that might be worth it for you to pay whatever the price that the [TS]

  price they're asking [TS]

  however distasteful it is to actually give in and give these little criminals [TS]

  money it might be more valuable to you you know then that you know that the [TS]

  actual data that's been encrypted is more valuable [TS]

  now the funny thing is that there's a group there's a group that you give him [TS]

  the money and I'm laughing but it's terrible because it's it's even worse [TS]

  obviously but the thing that makes me it makes me laugh about it is that all of [TS]

  them and all of the is into ransomware and I hate it so funny to say that the [TS]

  honest crooks I've got to be furious about this because if word spreads that [TS]

  even if you pay you don't get your files back its gonna make people less likely [TS]

  to pay I so many things to say about this guy say if you think yeah that's [TS]

  only because but I spent several days working on this recently so okay so you [TS]

  know how ship ransom works like piracy Somali pirates right money the planet [TS]

  money to great piece about this that talk to one of the people who does [TS]

  negotiate [TS]

  asian with pirates to pay the ransom right if you start killing hostages [TS]

  piracy stops working [TS]

  so it's actually typically not dangerous to be taken captive by pirates Somalian [TS]

  or whomever because it is entirely in the interest of the economic system cube [TS]

  to negotiate a reasonable fee make sure all the hostages are unharmed [TS]

  William sometimes released people for medical or compassionate reasons like [TS]

  it's handled like a business then you have this situation where i can belong [TS]

  to this was not a couple years where some pirate started killing people and [TS]

  then it was like okay and all the Navy's the role but screw this and they start [TS]

  steaming Navy ships in and sort of clean up the problem which has been a [TS]

  commercial problem is now you know a human rights one right and i'm thinking [TS]

  the idiots who think it's funny to delete the files are there too [TS]

  incompetent whatever it is they have so many I mean there are so many angry [TS]

  organized criminals in the moment they're these guys could get killed on [TS]

  the site they're tracked down that's for sure so that's not funny but it's also [TS]

  like it actually does exactly that the it's almost like a disruptive technique [TS]

  that would it destroys the value of ransomware so in researching this story [TS]

  i came across just a few days ago f-secure release this hilarious white [TS]

  paper they tested the customer service of major ransomware packages [TS]

  haha they're like it has a customer service burden i talked to this guy [TS]

  named Sean Sullivan additive secure labs about some background stuff about [TS]

  ransomware he said the reason it's gotten so popular is it store you know [TS]

  the routing Network lets you do anonymize browsing that's how the ransom [TS]

  where people post websites basically and bitcoin is all bitcoins no credit card [TS]

  anymore [TS]

  that's the big change in the ransomware dates back literally decades but this is [TS]

  the the Bitcoin just makes it silicate so much the average ransomware demand [TS]

  now has gone up from a few dollars with a Bitcoin to like 600 something dollars [TS]

  but f-secure found you could negotiate with some of them will run the field [TS]

  down they created like a naive user who then she they hired somebody who was not [TS]

  technical to do the communications so they wouldn't give anything away about [TS]

  you know what they say about more sophisticated details and they tested [TS]

  all these the ability to extend the deadlines customer service people the [TS]

  ransomware companies are very sensitive and one case they're like this is [TS]

  as good as like real good customer service like what you get from a [TS]

  software company they talk you through it they'll often teach you how to buy [TS]

  bitcoin so that you can pay they can treat it like a real customer service [TS]

  burden like it's a business and we're here to help you get your files back [TS]

  so what if you think about it when do you typically get the best customer [TS]

  service [TS]

  typically you get better customer service before you've given them your [TS]

  money [TS]

  yeah right you get you get you know it's it's easier and you wait less time to [TS]

  talk to a sales person before you bought something then when you come back with a [TS]

  problem [TS]

  yeah it's just the whole thing is hilarious and this is an awful so Mac [TS]

  users you know there's been a couple ransomware attempt the software attempts [TS]

  against Mac users and again because the user where r userspace file issue it's [TS]

  possible we will see you know fishing style ransomware are things that will be [TS]

  minimally capable because I os10 will execute certain kinds of things at the [TS]

  question is your network access and some privileged may need would be harder than [TS]

  I need to be an exploit pathway for a little bit of it but it is so much less [TS]

  of a burden to get to have some effect so we'll see so hopefully won't affect [TS]

  most of us but it is I'm any candidates you know everything you're saying it's [TS]

  like update your software use patches make backups having good backups and i [TS]

  use back plays and crashplan and local clones and I have a deep archives so if [TS]

  i have all my files were encrypted today i have a hundred percent is on most of [TS]

  the dropbox also into other play like at least one of the places should say where [TS]

  I have a deep archive and I could go back to a pre encrypted release let me [TS]

  take a break here thank our next sponsor is a longtime sponsor friend of the show [TS]

  longtime sponsor fracture fracture is a photo decor company that is out to [TS]

  rescue your favorite images from the digital ether they print your photos [TS]

  directly under glass and add laser-cut rigid backing so they are ready to [TS]

  display right out-of-the-box it's not like piece of paper glued to a piece of [TS]

  glass they print the photo right on the glass [TS]

  they've been a sponsor for years I still haven't seen anybody else that does this [TS]

  maybe somebody's I think the fractures got all this proprietary stuff down [TS]

  there [TS]

  it is an amazing display I've always said it is very much like the the way [TS]

  that the retina displays once Apple started fusing the screens to the [TS]

  glassware it looks like the pixels are on the glass instead of behind a layer [TS]

  of class that's what factor photos look like except they're completely analog it [TS]

  is a great thing to do with your digital photos i have thousands i should [TS]

  thousands of photos every year and the ones i like best [TS]

  I get get imprinted on these fractures hang them up around the house [TS]

  that's what people used to do because you put photos were printed you go [TS]

  youtube photos you getting back from the photo lab you take the ones you like out [TS]

  you know that the real keepers you'd instead of just putting back in the [TS]

  envelope you put them in a frame hang them up we don't do that anymore because [TS]

  there's like this extra step for you gotta get them from your digital archive [TS]

  to being on this is the way to do it if you're going to print your photos take [TS]

  the keepers and send them to fracture they're so good they have so many sizes [TS]

  amazing sizes they have a 60 day happiness guarantee so that you're sure [TS]

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  source materials in their carbon neutral factory all happens in the u.s. so for [TS]

  more information and ten percent off your first order visit fracture me.com / [TS]

  podcast there's even a special note here that says note the URL really ends in [TS]

  podcast not going not the name of your podcast because I'll tell you if they [TS]

  did put that note in here ice i would have said a fracture me.com / the talk [TS]

  show but that's not it [TS]

  remember this it's fracture me.com / podcast and then what they want you to [TS]

  do when you place your order they're gonna say where did you hear about this [TS]

  just mention that you heard it from the talk show and don't know that you came [TS]

  from here it's a it's it's literally it is a one question survey where did you [TS]

  hear about factor so it is the easiest survey you will ever take just remember [TS]

  to tell them that help support the show and it's fracture me.com / podcast can I [TS]

  talk about whatever you want i well I prefer another this is like this in the [TS]

  sidebar your reading recently about amazon and its inventory the birkenstock [TS]

  store ads on my list of topics [TS]

  okay well I have something to say about that but we can go take your direction I [TS]

  don't I i think i think we were done with security so we can totally go onto [TS]

  amazon fraud I've link just to a couple of recent stories about so terrible so [TS]

  there's a couple of aspects to one is the the main one that i've been reading [TS]

  because it seems like it's a little bit new is his big brands being ripped off [TS]

  by mostly Chinese counterfeiters and then they sell these things through [TS]

  amazon was the first 1i heard this is maybe two years ago is that mophie [TS]

  products mophie the battery after they make a whole bunch of battery external [TS]

  battery packs and battery cases for four phones really interesting company i have [TS]

  a couple of the things and I really i have to say i like them a lot [TS]

  I have a battery I like that instead of a case I like to just have the battery [TS]

  pack and they make one that has built-in lightning and USB cable so you don't [TS]

  need to take cables you don't need to have an extra cable i really like that [TS]

  product that's my favorite external battery thing ever but I heard years ago [TS]

  just like to at least two years ago don't buy movie stuff on Amazon because [TS]

  it there's so much Chinese knockoff crap that looks like a multi-product but it's [TS]

  really substandard electronics the batteries are no good that they're just [TS]

  crummy products if you google like mophie amazon you'll find lots of hits [TS]

  about it so now just recently this week [TS]

  birkenstock the and sandals what else do they make just sandals and flip-flops is [TS]

  that I was called by the way I was called socks and sandals in college [TS]

  because of my birkenstock habits [TS]

  just so you know I would school the East grew up in the West that's not because I [TS]

  is pulling out of amazon on january i guess they had they can't do it [TS]

  immediately because it made of contracts or inventory or something big but [TS]

  they're so overrun by counterfeiters on amazon that they're pulling out [TS]

  we are you and you love they're like Amazon basically told him if you want to [TS]

  be sell every single thing you sell then we will fight counterfeiting i mean i'm [TS]

  paraphrasing and if you want to just sell the way you're doing then screw I [TS]

  mean they didn't see it that way but that's the effect that's you know that's [TS]

  a Birkenstock claims at least I think I could be wrong on this [TS]

  i I've i wrote I that I it's sort of like when you search for stuff on amazon [TS]

  it tells you who its who you're buying it from and you know with a lot of the [TS]

  smaller things like when you just go there and buy the copy paper printer [TS]

  paper you know it's like full you know it's just that you're like not really [TS]

  buying it from amazon you're buying it from some vendor that sells through [TS]

  amazon but I've was under the impression that even if you wanted to buy like a [TS]

  mophie battery pack if you buy it directly from amazon and you're not [TS]

  buying it from you know Joe's battery right that you're you know you could [TS]

  beasts [TS]

  you know you could feel safe that you're getting the actual movie product but you [TS]

  kind of have to be so mad [TS]

  you have to be like a fucking clothes reader how many people who shop at [TS]

  amazon actually look at who it [TS]

  who-who's this fulfillment is i don't think most people most reasonable you [TS]

  know most regular people even know that that's how Amazon works you know I think [TS]

  they they just think you're buying from amazon and they don't even look they [TS]

  just look at prices and they might be curious about the fact that the same [TS]

  product is available three different prices from amazon because it's from [TS]

  three different you know whatever you want to call them fulfillment partners [TS]

  yeah RM martineau it's 33 marketplace or maybe through there they fulfilled by [TS]

  amazon also you can send your stuff to amazon and they will sell it to their [TS]

  own customers right this so you know I think you mentioned this in one of the [TS]

  pieces that you link to the commingling so it's like two kinds of was actually [TS]

  four kinds of fraud [TS]

  there are two kinds of major fraud one is there's so many kinds of ok so [TS]

  commingling is company X ships a product to amazon and they say this is exactly [TS]

  the same here's the SKU number this is product why that you already sell like a [TS]

  Cuisinart electric kettle which is really why bring that up right [TS]

  amazon does commingling where they take this inventory I don't even know what [TS]

  the inspector [TS]

  never they put it on their shelves as and they don't care they treated as a [TS]

  fungible thing this thing that came from company X that claims product why we're [TS]

  putting on the shelves or warehouse next to this thing that came from the [TS]

  manufacturer that claims product why right I have heard stories from multiple [TS]

  places and you can read them publicly to allow these articles about companies [TS]

  like broken birkenstock has a different problem which I get to but that you buy [TS]

  a product you go to Amazon you order product Y and it comes in here like this [TS]

  is not product why you complaining amazon and they're like oh and it back [TS]

  with shipping new one or you can play the company i bought product Y from [TS]

  amazon they like we didn't make that doesn't have this no that's a [TS]

  counterfeit it was putting amazon stream and we cannot prevent them from selling [TS]

  them basically that's the common problem [TS]

  birkenstock has the undercutting problem where people are listing things [TS]

  basically the same kind of thing their undercutting Birkenstocks prices and [TS]

  they may or may not be shipping a Birkenstock the probably shipping thing [TS]

  as it could be there buying it for some other source or it could be their [TS]

  manufacturing something that is completely counterfeit and selling it [TS]

  and we're both huge problems because in the one case you have this thing where [TS]

  people but I mean actually birkenstock is the same problem whether it's a [TS]

  co-mingled problem or counterfeit and cheaper Mumbai's it says birkenstock [TS]

  screwed either way the companies that we didn't make that which buy from amazon [TS]

  that's not ours she bought the $80 100-dollar one we don't sell it for a [TS]

  $MONEY dollars you bought the lucky one [TS]

  alright so this just happened to me last night [TS]

  really yeah so I right well the product so haha electric kettle of electric [TS]

  kettle I've had two Brown model ones or brawn I guess we say in America my wife [TS]

  got one for a birthday like 15 years ago it worked fine for several years and [TS]

  then it just died so we bought the identical thing like a twenty-dollar one [TS]

  it's worked great [TS]

  it just dies today same thing some kind of its got all these contacts breaks so [TS]

  I'm like okay I will find out what wire cutter recommends my old friends wire [TS]

  cutter and sweet home was a contractor therefore bit i love the people there [TS]

  love the process of my car [TS]

  what do they recommend like oh god it's a dollar so i just many dollars on that [TS]

  like I don't know I'm not made of money [TS]

  jason l has a Breville T robot which is too [TS]

  fifty dollars which I've been dying for a year not I can't get it can robot that [TS]

  makes T it has a basket that lowers robotically and raises brutes it steeps [TS]

  for the right amount of time and I just wanted to clarify that it was t the [TS]

  beverage and not like a some kinda I you know like a t-shirt like the letter [TS]

  something I wasn't familiar with I wasn't it's a tea brewing robot pot it's [TS]

  off its and people love the brown but I'm not ready to spend i love to be able [TS]

  to if I ever got some great contractor something I might say this is my treat [TS]

  to myself I will get a robot that makes tea for me and you still have to put [TS]

  stuff in the basket moves it lose it up again doesn't overstay so anyway [TS]

  80 bucks like that seemed scared and I started doing research may go to Amazon [TS]

  because it's usually my first stop and there are like 700 electric kettles now [TS]

  and many of them have one review which makes no sense right [TS]

  likewise what's something with one review in a brand name I've never heard [TS]

  of in my 48 years on this planet and then a bunch of others I find what I'm [TS]

  like this is like 300 views I've never heard of this thing and ninety-seven [TS]

  percent of them are five stars you know how the app store work same thing [TS]

  wassup i'm reading the reviews like Marty says this is a great cattle this [TS]

  kennel does everything i want to it's great [TS]

  Jill says this kettle is great it does everything i wanted to this case let's [TS]

  create because on and on and there's a few real five star reviews and then a [TS]

  distribution of other ones like I'm not going to buy that because that some [TS]

  piece of crap manufacture god-knows-where that they're you know [TS]

  for a finite amount of time they're going to push through amazon and make [TS]

  some hundreds of thousands of dollars somewhere the $23 good kettles and brown [TS]

  can't find Browns anymore everyone's got upscale kettles now costs fifty sixty [TS]

  eight dollars to do basic stuff so like all right well bite the bullet [TS]

  I i use the cattle 23 times day my wife used it two times a day [TS]

  this is a high you think I can't look for spending dollars and I hate it when [TS]

  you're spending dollars could Amazon site and I'm like all right well in city [TS]

  parks ok i'm looking through views but this looks pretty good and then look at [TS]

  the cellar [TS]

  it's a Cuisinart but it doesn't say sold by cuisinart says sold by I everything [TS]

  lucky I'm not making this up everything lucky the selling the cuisinart and I [TS]

  think this this isn't right so i searched an Amazon site for the model [TS]

  number it's like CP [TS]

  cpk 1212 or something and like all right so where is and then I find another [TS]

  listing for a hundred dollars with ok so the eighty dollar unit everyday lucky [TS]

  which I find out later . that's me says ever day lucky it's not even spelled [TS]

  right whenever the making of their most recent and everyday lucky is mostly [TS]

  selling iphone cases and the squeeze in our alleged cuisinart so that the eighty [TS]

  dollar every day lucky listing has 2500 clearly legitimate reviews they have [TS]

  managed somehow to hijack the main listing there's a hundred-dollar version [TS]

  and if you look at all the other people selling this like Target Walmart Best [TS]

  Buy they're all selling this model four hundred dollars so I'm like that's the [TS]

  list price clearly and the hundred-dollar one on amazon says by sol [TS]

  by cuisinart is being fulfilled by a third party but it's clearly the [TS]

  legitimate product but it's like 7 reviews so i asked my friends at [TS]

  sweethome what's going on here they're like out what happened is like a [TS]

  response to my from Tony over there who's great you know they're all these [TS]

  deals people in anything he says what happened is the Amazon rain out of stock [TS]

  that sells directly and so they pulled a listing for someone selling it new not [TS]

  you know used or new refurbished whatever and they drop that in so they [TS]

  don't drop the listing off and so in this case every day lucky was the backup [TS]

  provider in their listing of third-party sellers for this particular model that's [TS]

  it I've i'm looking at it as we speak it at everything like whoever you ever [TS]

  think lucky sorry everything i'm lucky i know isn't that in so that is my story [TS]

  so it's little there [TS]

  yeah so we'll know so I wake up this morning and tony has responded speak on [TS]

  via twitter is great God is like oh here's what's gonna check its back and I [TS]

  go and like oh there's the Amazon listing at sixty-seven dollars now I [TS]

  feel justified of ways right do you think that this is the real product [TS]

  though [TS]

  well we'll see it so i think it is it may be but there's no way to know like [TS]

  I'm buying it from a third party seller who isn't clearly done somatic so this [TS]

  morning i placed an order page sixty-seven dollars everyone can [TS]

  criticize me for my profit spending and if you like please feel free [TS]

  anyway so i buy it and I right back to Tony Mike a the thing you're right [TS]

  swapped back is like I just went back it's there [TS]

  apparently i bought the one model amazon had no way [TS]

  us that if the field itself is back to everything lucky yeah so anyway that's [TS]

  the problem i have so i don't know everything lucky could be selling me a [TS]

  legitimate object in still twenty dollars less than retail price at Target [TS]

  Walmart etc however they're getting the advantage of 2,500 positive reviews and [TS]

  Amazon doesn't that product is actually knew from cuisinart item [TS]

  yeah so part of the part of the problem the the way that I mean this is so [TS]

  insidious but part of this problem now is if if it starts to if awareness [TS]

  starts to spread that you can't trust stuff through third-party sellers on [TS]

  amazon it hurts all of the honest ones that the system was set up for in the [TS]

  first place [TS]

  excited is terrible all around there's also like even get another variant that [TS]

  too is that so those are like the most legitimate cases right like this could [TS]

  absolutely be a fell off the truck or you bought like you know one of the [TS]

  things in China is that and I've heard this I hope I don't mean to tell lies [TS]

  about China so let's say this is I don't know if this is true but I've read it in [TS]

  another number of accounts I've talked to people that mix-up made in china it's [TS]

  a complaint made by a number of companies about things china is come [TS]

  some factories will gear up products for a given maker and during the day they're [TS]

  being supervisor be made for maker you know whatever company is no reebok or [TS]

  whatever issues it could be because our candles at night they fire up the lines [TS]

  they make stuff they sell themselves when they're essentially identical [TS]

  sometimes there's labeling changes so they're identical unit with it not [TS]

  labels they avoid some intellectual property issues so the birkenstock thing [TS]

  when you're going to perkins to try to buy a burka second their list prices [TS]

  hundred dollars for whatever and his people suddenly for eight dollars you [TS]

  might be getting a legitimate thing it might be made as a factory nighttime job [TS]

  or who knows what or they're just doing deeper discounts because however they're [TS]

  acquiring it they're not honoring the list price the same thing that [TS]

  cuisinart cattle bought from everything he could have been absolutely the same [TS]

  as anything purchased directly from amazon warehouse or from a third-party [TS]

  you no authorized hughesnet thing but you don't know that's the other problem [TS]

  like the other thing is that what you're saying before is it's the the [TS]

  counterfeit stuff that's just knock-offs that are crap and they appear to be [TS]

  listed the same so it's I see this all the time for us you know all these [TS]

  different products i'm looking for for reviews and things you find stuff that [TS]

  is clearly the pictures are something off you buy it something is not right [TS]

  and you're not you know sometimes it's listed under slightly different name [TS]

  sometimes it's listed as exactly the same thing is trying to take advantage [TS]

  the reputation but all these problems persist because amazon wants to sell nor [TS]

  it doesn't want to do tighter inventory control because it costs a lot of money [TS]

  shaves the margins off so i just sent you the link [TS]

  this is the one . court cordless electric tea kettle and this is the [TS]

  product you're talking about i got the finest I kind of hate the interface to [TS]

  tell you know I bet it's the best cheapest thing like if you want [TS]

  something better you have to spend more like I know looks horrible [TS]

  increase is IPE cpk 17 sold by everything lucky now if you look I think [TS]

  it's the same product there's there's a thing that size 7 cup and yes one it is [TS]

  the two sizes that are offered is seven cup which is a hundred dollars and then [TS]

  the other one instead of measuring cups it just gives you the dimensions of the [TS]

  box 9.7 all I six-by-eight and so they may have managed to sneak interesting [TS]

  but they've made it look like there's two options of the same product but [TS]

  they're one is measuring by the cup capacity of how much water you can put [TS]

  in any other one is measured in inches [TS]

  yeah the word that a court one is the second cup 1 is sold by card machine [TS]

  outlet inc of the world you know like says oh it says mind says it's by [TS]

  cuisinart yeah just scroll down under in stock it says six all I yeah I know [TS]

  isn't it so [TS]

  no- alright kitchen kapers oh my god what happens when I reload that's [TS]

  hilarious minus from kitchen kapers primary loading a different answer i [TS]

  think and so this one is a hundred dollars and prime is available but that [TS]

  $80 one it to me is suspicious the $80 one and I guess [TS]

  amazon defaults to it because it's cheapest yeah that's exactly a fact that [TS]

  that's the one by everything lucky the fact that it's cheaper makes me think [TS]

  that it might be fake I would actually if I were going to buy this right now i [TS]

  would buy i would actually spend the extra twenty dollars to get the one that [TS]

  says it by cuisinart [TS]

  except here's a funny thing so when i logged in this morning amazon apparently [TS]

  gotten one on the shelves that they filled directly so that is sold by [TS]

  amazon 67 bucks so I got the deal i guess i got the one that was $67 yeah [TS]

  i'm very happy about that I'm able to boil mighty all kinds of temperatures [TS]

  and now there's another there's another type of fraud going on amazon and this [TS]

  is just common knowledge that will come but I I link i linked to the to somebody [TS]

  on Twitter yesterday who bought I wanted to get a floor mat and they got they got [TS]

  like a almost like a mousepad type with printed on the mousepad like it is it is [TS]

  format size but printed on the code of piece of foam is a screen print of the [TS]

  sort of texture of the full i was crying i was explaining that to my wife this [TS]

  morning existing ok but a teakettle here's my story and she's laughing again [TS]

  I told her about the other one the the cop the changing temperature pattern cup [TS]

  one right with ya [TS]

  the other 1i guess i'll put a link to my to my daring fireball link piece in the [TS]

  show notes and I was so i looked up there but somebody bought there was a [TS]

  listing on amazon and showed a picture to pictures of the same mug one was like [TS]

  when it's empty and it just looks by a black and if you fill it with a hot [TS]

  beverage it with a color will that the AIDS printed for some kind of [TS]

  temperature-sensitive inc [TS]

  yeah changes and gives you like a snowy Christmas scene and so somebody bought [TS]

  the house on amazon and what they got was a mug where somebody had printed [TS]

  that photo of two mugs onto the mug so it was a nice thing a mug with a with a [TS]

  photo of two mugs Lana actually gonna be a great know that now that has become a [TS]

  meme will be a great gift I would love to buy a mug with a picture of two mugs [TS]

  on it i think that is great and I guess that the idea with that type of scam is [TS]

  that it is so I mean I'm guessing that this was not a very expensive mug that [TS]

  if it's only like four box or six box that people wouldn't even bother to send [TS]

  it back [TS]

  because it's like what's you know what's the point and I mean like you feel like [TS]

  you're ripped off but at a certain point [TS]

  oh yeah it's more of a hassle to send it back then it is that the money's worth [TS]

  can I tell you my perfect walmart experience which is walmart pages came [TS]

  out information why they rolled it out and I mean this is so I've been laughing [TS]

  about currency which was the you know the big retailer system that was [TS]

  supposed to use to decode and checking accounts and crap laughing about that [TS]

  for your Suzy oaks nine the macro podcast every time a currency story [TS]

  comes out we make sure highlight so we can laugh at it because it sort of it if [TS]

  it come out before Apple pay and then android pay maybe got a little bit of [TS]

  traction I don't know but it didn't write it was like ridiculous finally [TS]

  basically shut down their focus on the mcx consortium that's a bunch of these [TS]

  big retailers is now focusing on back and stuff which is great so walmart has [TS]

  been working on its own system its member of the mcx consortium but I've [TS]

  been working on its own variant and I saw announce that I'm like you know this [TS]

  doesn't look as awful you don't they don't accept checking account linkages [TS]

  so there's less risk of your stuff being hijacked right where you're checking can [TS]

  be drained it's always a pain to get anything fixed i just talked to some of [TS]

  the other day they had a hundred and sixty thousand dollars take out of [TS]

  checking account after this old house took them six months to get it back even [TS]

  though they had not authorized anything they weren't even scammed the bank was [TS]

  scammed so checking counter pain in the ass credit cards debit cards we have [TS]

  protections even gift card sales training sign [TS]

  yeah that's positively terrified or no protection accounts let's go all go back [TS]

  to that coin and cat and gold so state attorney general's have a lot of control [TS]

  over our gift cards there's this those are state regulated and so there's [TS]

  control over there so Walmart pay will let you use walmart gift card debit card [TS]

  credit card and prepaid card something like that [TS]

  I'm like well this is kind of cool you still have to use a barcode you're [TS]

  scanning a to decode but it all looked sensible so I pitched a macro let me go [TS]

  right about this is sure so I find a walmart about 20 minutes away and into [TS]

  they have they opened it actually store the shutdown which is rare for them and [TS]

  i go there and first thing in the morning the place is totally empty no [TS]

  one's even trailing me around make sure I don't steal there's no greater nobody [TS]

  checked my receipt when i left the place is empty we need to buy a cheap [TS]

  walk with the face for our dining room so that my younger son does not spend an [TS]

  hour a half eating at the table with the same piece of toast so we can get [TS]

  through things that he so some children dogs somebody fast anyway so I find a [TS]

  clock cost 650 like this is great [TS]

  battery-operated school like the face whatever to checkout process actually [TS]

  quite like it already set up walmart pay the app is actually very well-designed [TS]

  point-of-sale system displays the code you just open your app you've tap it and [TS]

  you're done and it's electronic this is great i get home i unpack at the clock [TS]

  doesn't work so that's the that's the walmart story I i have noticed that [TS]

  seems like uh I don't know it if this was predicted and I actually wanted to [TS]

  talk about Apple pay [TS]

  oh yeah it seems to me and it in apple is an interesting apples usually late to [TS]

  most things but every once in awhile there early on things like for example [TS]

  Wi-Fi Apple you know way like an apple introduced the idea that had Wi-Fi they [TS]

  actually had explained Wi-Fi was and that was that was the event where phil [TS]

  schiller uh did like a stunt like Jehovah yeah climbed up a ladder and [TS]

  jump 10 feet onto a padded mat while holding the ibook to prove that it was [TS]

  you know getting the internet over the air like they actually it was almost [TS]

  like you know it the idea that you're getting internet over-the-air was such a [TS]

  novelty that they actually felt like that approve it and it seems to me like [TS]

  apple pays another one of those things where Apple pay came out at the right [TS]

  time like because it's just that maybe it's a local thing here in Philly but [TS]

  maybe it's something else but a whole bunch just change around here have [TS]

  suddenly started getting the chip and pin registers and they are they all seem [TS]

  to work with Apple pay even though they don't have apple pay logos yet like so [TS]

  we have a supermarket chain here called Acme they don't have there's no apple [TS]

  pay logo but it just says tapper pay or something forget what they all say but [TS]

  there's like a little logo that suggests that maybe there's some kind of NFC [TS]

  thing and so I i tried Apple pay and it just works [TS]

  and starbucks are locals at least the the 1i go to now as chip-and-pin but a [TS]

  lot of these ones to they get the chip and pin and then they say have a piece [TS]

  of tape there and I said yeah ChIP chip doesn't work yet [TS]

  yeah but it's starbucks Apple pay worked and i paid [TS]

  oh I paid with Apple pay at starbucks and if that's new right it is were only [TS]

  knew I mean like you may have literally roll out its like maybe like within the [TS]

  last 10 days at least here and that the none of you know I and it's funny [TS]

  because it like Whole Foods where I go they have had a play for a while they [TS]

  were like a debut partner and like listed on the slide on the stage and it [TS]

  i've been using it at at at whole foods for you you know ever since it came out [TS]

  so it's not a novelty there but at starbucks I've gotten like two or three [TS]

  of the the Clarks have been like well what did you just do that was amazing [TS]

  but then I went today and it didn't work it it worked in so far as as when i got [TS]

  my iphone near the terminal my credit card came up on the screen and it read [TS]

  my fingerprint and when king and said done and in the little hand terminal [TS]

  said processing but then the processing never went through in it I forget what [TS]

  it said it just like processing was up way too long because apple pays very [TS]

  fast usually know it was processing way too long and it said like payment could [TS]

  not be completed and so I've had you know pay with a actual credit card like [TS]

  a you know like a 23-percent I think my recollection that NFC is typically like [TS]

  there's a protocol the the paint is a overseas a protocol so him even if it [TS]

  isn't supposed to take apple pay if nfc-enabled at all it will try to do it [TS]

  but the back in part may not work then there was the deal with that Africans [TS]

  CVS or something with the mcx better yes [TS]

  yeah it launches like people were paying with Apple pay their like all supposed [TS]

  to work it's like they take and they literally and they literally did state [TS]

  nationwide CBS disconnected their entire the the ability to pay with any NFC at [TS]

  all just so that it wouldn't use Apple pay even though they were [TS]

  really getting the money from apple but it wasn't like they were getting ripped [TS]

  off [TS]

  it was they want to play a little deal and it was no I just I just got an email [TS]

  from a company i want to mention his name yet because I haven't tested but [TS]

  they're so full of secrets [TS]

  I'm so we know it's not their secret i don't want to promote them until i see [TS]

  what they actually do during beta testing it like public baby have to sign [TS]

  up they are our good friend animalistic or is that is not a video for them [TS]

  no that's how incredible they are ok they're great and it's a very funny [TS]

  video of course so and very informative so this [TS]

  do you remember several years ago there were some credit cards that would let [TS]

  you create an individual card number for every transaction yes yes i love that i [TS]

  use that and you can set things like this can charge no more than a higher [TS]

  dollars a month this is a one-time use and should only work until such like all [TS]

  these things in the interface was terrible it's pretty mobile it was awful [TS]

  and online payment was terrible anyway so this is an outfit that is doing the [TS]

  same thing with an appt you sign up you get a credit card through their partner [TS]

  which I forget which bank is a major bag and eighteen percent credit you no [TS]

  interest APR so it's you know it's the kind of car you'd better pay off because [TS]

  it's not real otherwise in one percent cashback so it's they got all these [TS]

  parameters on it but the fact is like for online transactions like your they [TS]

  have a physical card you can use that's got an EMF EMV chip in it you could use [TS]

  that but when you're paying online you know any kind of transaction you run the [TS]

  app it generates a unique number with whatever parameters you want like one [TS]

  time or whatever and you use that one time number and so it gets stolen you [TS]

  know who stole it so I'm going to try they gave me an invitation i signed up [TS]

  I'm gonna test my credit rating but I'm i had three Cardinal versatile this year [TS]

  so far it's almost like I that's amazing a little long for me and numbers i have [TS]

  a visa and amex and another visa three different card issuers and in every case [TS]

  i gotta tell you the fraud people have gotten they used to be good i dealt with [TS]

  this in the past of it but every call was with someone who is so crackerjack [TS]

  and like they're obviously paying people while they're trained and well these [TS]

  people were amusing and fun to be like fun to talk to [TS]

  while we're going through all the crap you have to go through and they took [TS]

  care of it in every case they caught it in one case like a 38 sent transaction [TS]

  to a charity went through [TS]

  but everything else didn't so the pilot yeah yeah that's what they that's what [TS]

  they do I forget it wasn't me it was my wife i think it was eerie gas station [TS]

  charge or online charge up like in a bodega somebody bought like a coke they [TS]

  see if it's been cancelled yeah so they got it they they bought a coke and then [TS]

  they went to buy like you know I don't know TV got same thing so in each of [TS]

  these three cases are fraud pattern got it and they're like in two cases nothing [TS]

  one case 38 cents which was refunded and for charity that 38 since they didn't [TS]

  know they're going to get that has taken back but so i'm very interested in do [TS]

  you think so i am so excited for Apple pay and safari not because i am so [TS]

  excited about Apple pay but I'm like Apple pants parties can be the beginning [TS]

  of a transition because android pay in whatever browse is coming like they're [TS]

  going to be all these mobile pay options will now be available for desktop and [TS]

  mobile web transactions the minute any of my cards are enabled I'm like never [TS]

  going to buy anything from a site that doesn't do Apple pay in safari again I'm [TS]

  dreading my amex getting ripped off again and happy years ago in somebody [TS]

  some nitwit tried to buy jet skis in Arizona or New Mexico either Arizona New [TS]

  Mexico everybody but you know the guy from amex called me and and said you [TS]

  know you're not trying to buy jet skis in Arizona are you as a no definitely [TS]

  not because I well somebody is sorry you know I like you said totally on the ball [TS]

  just don't worry about it but your card is now canceled [TS]

  I'm fedexing you a replacement it should be there tomorrow really sorry you know [TS]

  you know but you play makes them you know and take a look take a look at your [TS]

  you know next you know statement and all right I guess he read some of my recent [TS]

  transactions that were me and I was like yeah those are all good but I'm dreading [TS]

  my the 1i had now for a couple years getting ripped off because it's my new [TS]

  couple of my new card came my last three digits are double-oh-seven oh my god [TS]

  yeah love this card has some card numbers why don't they sell and I think [TS]

  if you're a very high you're a whale of a card user or anything but I think you [TS]

  can get your number you want it [TS]

  I'm lucky numbers on their double actively I got doubles all my god that's [TS]

  so it's so good and I always read I'm gonna have to read it over the phone i [TS]

  always say that way like you know whatever whatever whatever whatever [TS]

  whatever whatever and then double that's yeah I think I mean the painting the [TS]

  fact that we're still using unsecured numbers to do this is sort of place like [TS]

  I I've wondered why can't the credit card companies be set up to reduce [TS]

  two-factor authentication like I'd be delighted if I went to amazon i punched [TS]

  in my car around amazon because they have their own whatever go to branding [TS]

  site X and before the transaction goes through it text me a code and I have to [TS]

  enter it like I know the back end systems are ancient and weird and [TS]

  whatever but you think after this many years they could just tack that on and [TS]

  you enable in your card and if you went to a site they couldn't do it you know [TS]

  they have to they say you know you have to try this transaction again after [TS]

  clicking a link that's being sent to you email or some kind of my best but [TS]

  apparently the frictionless nature of e-commerce has to be emphasized over the [TS]

  amount of fraud fraud at some point becomes so high that they have to invent [TS]

  new ways to help prevent against it but some balance there [TS]

  so what do you think this go back to circle back to the same as I think [TS]

  amazon has got to clean this mess up [TS]

  I think Amazon needs to die i know that they're operating at a massive scale and [TS]

  there's sort of you know an app store like problem there where if you've got [TS]

  all these hundreds of thousands of products from all these partners that [TS]

  you know maybe they can never achieve perfection but at this point it seems [TS]

  like nobody's even watching watching the door [TS]

  you know i mean it got well they could say there's like they could say there's [TS]

  a thousand major brands or 10,000 major brands or they can even partner with [TS]

  major brands you want to do this and say if your company for some no-name [TS]

  supplier whose ships us the cuisinart electric kettle we're not gonna listen [TS]

  as if we're going to commingle the inventory because you're nobody right or [TS]

  you have to prove your relationship or you have to do some province or have to [TS]

  prove yourself over time they give you a you know they give you some kind of long [TS]

  payments to do something to vet you before you're allowed to ship product [TS]

  that would be commingled they don't as far as i can tell they do a little bit [TS]

  of something I know those issues with how they hold payment and so forth but i [TS]

  don't think they have any real processes in place because [TS]

  hasn't hit them yet but if you have companies like birkenstock saying were [TS]

  more willing to to back out of you know these relationships that anything like [TS]

  birkenstock I don't how many tens of millions of products they sell a lot of [TS]

  dollars of products online but it's gotta be something so them saying [TS]

  basically they're going to tell me this was a leaked memo so we don't know you [TS]

  know this is internal stuff it wasn't a Birkenstock announcement of your company [TS]

  saying if you buy a product for us from if you buy a product with our name on it [TS]

  from amazon is not authorized it is likely counterfeit if it's being sold [TS]

  knew that is I mean that is serious damage damage is ruined right because [TS]

  what's that [TS]

  retail is largely about trust in my opinion i mean i guess for some people [TS]

  it and maybe this is the way amazon season maybe I guess for some people [TS]

  retail is largely about price and it's all just cheap price and you know [TS]

  walmart is sort of built on that but ah that there's I think walmart has for [TS]

  people who like Walmart there's a certain trust right like I think part of [TS]

  it is that people trust that the prices are going to be low [TS]

  they just know you know we don't have don't don't even bother going around [TS]

  town and price exactly pricing your dog food at the supermarket to just get it [TS]

  at walmart you know it's going to be as cheaper cheaper and I think people know [TS]

  that when you buy you know whatever brand dog food at walmart it really is [TS]

  whatever brand dog food [TS]

  you know it's it's the Reno that the cuisinart thing you buy it what Walmart [TS]

  is a Cuisinart I think it's serious serious serious damage to Amazon's trust [TS]

  that it's turning its reputation is starting to be like ebay where it say [TS]

  who the hell's my god yeah it's it's true i remember by the way Jeff basis [TS]

  said this I work for amazon brief like six months in 96-97 was hired by Jeff [TS]

  knew when the company was starting out so it's a little bit of that you know it [TS]

  wasn't a petition per se i did a great job a great shot a bunch of stuff [TS]

  there's still like is to bunch of program i feel very happy my time there [TS]

  like what I got done but Jeff said it's a meeting and I 20 years cover but very [TS]

  distinctly he said we're eventually going to become authoritative for price [TS]

  and what I mean by authoritative is not that we always had the best price that [TS]

  people don't think they need to go anywhere else they just assume we do [TS]

  right [TS]

  and I was like that was like that I thought it was like hi wonder how that [TS]

  will work out like book that's what's a be so you know I run this book price [TS]

  comparison site called ISBN use my ongoing programming experiment running a [TS]

  large like up high traffic sites millions of queries day people just a [TS]

  punch and ISBN are you searching the book and it gives you price results from [TS]

  a dozen 15 bookstores and what's fascinating to me is over time the [TS]

  revenues going down because people don't price compare that much and most the [TS]

  revenue used to be amazon was only like twenty-five percent of revenue now it's [TS]

  like 75 percent because people come in they searched like a task at amazon i [TS]

  mean that's kind of the result right and there was a point at which like most I [TS]

  think the majority of my money comes from people doing textbook searches [TS]

  because then you have more variety and diminish textbooks that salad there's [TS]

  people about textbooks cost 1200 dollars i get go for eight percent of that I'm [TS]

  lamprey but holy crap so I that so i get a lot of sales in you know in july [TS]

  august in January basically kind of a funny pattern i have but it's been [TS]

  interesting to watch it has been this gradual change as as Amazon is just [TS]

  assumed to have the best price and as other stores like why would you buy I i [TS]

  bought a bunch of dvds and blu-rays from barnes & noble few weeks ago because [TS]

  they had a ridiculous sale they were doing forty to fifty percent off [TS]

  everything already [TS]

  then they had a thirty percent off coupon you can add with it and they have [TS]

  free shipping so i bought stuff some things for seventy to eighty percent off [TS]

  list primary off list price but I never buy from bn.com let me take one final [TS]

  break here thank our third and final sponsor the show it is our old friends [TS]

  at casper company that makes obsessively engineered mattresses at shockingly fair [TS]

  prices i have recently been on vacation we stayed in two different hotels split [TS]

  a little trip and one hotel had a in my opinion terrible mattress and I woke up [TS]

  every day and I was a little miserable and then we immediately that second half [TS]

  of the trip in a different hotel which had a terrific mattress and I sort of [TS]

  thought of casper and I thought you know this because it's a lot of times if you [TS]

  don't think about you don't get to compare one day after another what a [TS]

  difference a great mattress can make i am one of those people who says hey you [TS]

  really do sleep a third of your life [TS]

  it's worth getting a great mattress and a good bed you spend so much time [TS]

  and that you don't you probably spent more time in bed than you do anywhere [TS]

  else [TS]

  why not get a great one Casper has created terrific mattress they have an [TS]

  engineering team in house that spent thousands of hours developing their [TS]

  Casper mattress it combines spring latex and supportive memory phone for a sleep [TS]

  surface with just the right sink and just the right balance i love the fact [TS]

  that Casper just has one type of mattress [TS]

  all you do is pick your size you just pick a size and that the mattress [TS]

  because how would you pick like if they had like seven different types of [TS]

  mattresses how would you pick [TS]

  I don't know how to pick I just white trust that somebody who becomes a [TS]

  mattress engineer is going to do the job for me right it's sort of like Apple in [TS]

  that regard where they're going to just do that what design is design is making [TS]

  choices [TS]

  well Casper has figured out what they think is the best way to make a mattress [TS]

  now maybe you disagree maybe you get it you don't like it well guess what they [TS]

  have a hundred knight home trial so if you buy the thing take it up the steps [TS]

  and it day by day vacuum seal these things ended the most ridiculously [TS]

  little you cannot believe that there is like a queen or king-sized mattress in [TS]

  one of these boxes get it you take it up in a room [TS]

  follow the directions sucks all the air out of the room to fill it up and all of [TS]

  a sudden you got his little box now you've got a queen or king-sized [TS]

  mattress whatever you need [TS]

  if you don't like it you have a hundred knights and if you don't you did you [TS]

  just go to the website and say I'd take my mattress back they give you all your [TS]

  money back and they take care of the hassle getting the mattress at your [TS]

  house date that's how confident they are and how few people actually take him up [TS]

  on it so if you have any reluctance to buy a mattress online because you [TS]

  haven't actually SAT there in a gross showroom or other people have laid on [TS]

  the same mattress and and poked at it before you don't worry about you can't [TS]

  lose [TS]

  I have heard from readers a lot of readers it is the craziest thing in the [TS]

  world to me that I have become its black a spokesperson from mattress company [TS]

  among the many things I never thought I would ever do in life is sell mattresses [TS]

  but I it's so funny to me but readers write to me and say you know I i just [TS]

  moved how to get into mattress and I got one of the Casper things I you know an [TS]

  expected that they would send it back or whatever they're like this is great this [TS]

  is like staying in like the best hotel it is a great mattress [TS]

  so get yours today go to Casper calm / the talkshow Casper see sper / the [TS]

  talkshow use the code the talk show with the and you say fifty bucks on your [TS]

  mattress and the prices are great [TS]

  it's 750 for full 854 Queen 954 king a king size mattress for 950 you save [TS]

  fifty nine hundred bucks at most stores that's like two grand really is that's [TS]

  how much expensive mattresses are so go to Casper calm / the talk show the next [TS]

  time you need a mattress and maybe consider the fact that maybe you do need [TS]

  a mattress i want to do the experiment like with mementos of pepsi's where they [TS]

  open a bunch of casper mattresses in a room and you have all the air is sucked [TS]

  out of the windows popular i want to see if people can't people can't breathe I [TS]

  can't breathe [TS]

  Casper last thing on my agenda for the show was this issue where is this guy [TS]

  Milo United pronounce his name gianopolous any anomalous believe [TS]

  Indianapolis sort of a conservative agitator / political columnist i'm not [TS]

  quite sure how to describe for people who aren't in there with them is the [TS]

  very six very very successful troll yeah very success charming in a way that only [TS]

  people with an English accent can never get away with well-being [TS]

  he's he's a younger Boris Johnson for people into politics longer with Napster [TS]

  reports and this relates to what you were talking about before where there is [TS]

  some subset of a is a participant in in this new subculture called the alt right [TS]

  which is you know I don't want to get too much into politics of it but there [TS]

  is a subset of this movement and of the Internet at large that is above all the [TS]

  things in the world to be upset about very downright angry that the [TS]

  Ghostbusters reboot it features an all-women cast of ghostbusters that the [TS]

  the people actually busting ghosts are for women when in the original movie is [TS]

  there were format [TS]

  and they're very upset about this and I don't really know why it seems very [TS]

  strange to me i had I you know the people to me this is a sign that these [TS]

  people have some very I I think if you're upset that Ghostbusters is now [TS]

  all women it is a very good sign that you have some very significant issues [TS]

  with women [TS]

  well this guy i think i'm being fair here somehow a week ago Leslie Jones [TS]

  also speaking of very talented current SNL cast time to interrupt you i love [TS]

  let the more than Kaiba can I love Leslie Jones so much so much because she [TS]

  is the kind of communion you did not see on television not just that he's black [TS]

  but she's like a statue is peaceful and she's sick something she 16 oz but she's [TS]

  not a traditional you know figure she is she is this large beautiful totally [TS]

  outspoken with spike here who has this incredible incredible voice and she is [TS]

  this like intensity the hook John Cleese at his best means like Angry john cleese [TS]

  in the early monty python's and go red face like she has this incredible energy [TS]

  and I love her and I love that she is on SNL i love that she's in this film [TS]

  yeah i think my she's really i like she's really great on SNL too i love [TS]

  again like you said she's definitely not the sort of comedian that you typically [TS]

  see I can't think of anybody else even compared to just maybe she's cashier [TS]

  kind of her own I mean and go to clubs but she seems to be like her own like [TS]

  unforgotten on like she does not change yourself or anybody else and she got her [TS]

  place in this show is doing her thing absolutely [TS]

  she's good writer too she's not just a good performer because I to know she [TS]

  writes her own bit when she and my favorites are when she's on the weekend [TS]

  update desk and good and that's really just you know those are her bits and a [TS]

  real man well anyway she's in the Ghostbusters she's busting ghosts and I [TS]

  was on Twitter engaging you know with the fans and somehow just started [TS]

  getting just a steaming on ceaseless garage of [TS]

  at replies and mentions racist misogynist I don't even know what I mean [TS]

  there's got to be more things more offenses but really some just 66 stuff [TS]

  from these gamergate troll types and she you know engaged with them she started [TS]

  retreating some of them and this Milo guy jumped in on it and including and to [TS]

  me the one I think probably put him over the top it was the one where he he [TS]

  posted a fake screenshot that made it look as though [TS]

  Leslie Jones herself called somebody a hike in fighting she I think there's one [TS]

  where she didn't refactor screenshot which had more than a hundred forty [TS]

  characters by the way but it which was part of the towel but who's counting was [TS]

  accusing him was like calling you know he's gay he's openly gay makes a big [TS]

  point of being conservative and very far right and gang was just at the net the [TS]

  Republican National Convention hosting a party [TS]

  he's very into that right so he's the screen capture had something that was [TS]

  essentially making fun of him for being gay i forget the exact detail so that [TS]

  was part of it too like he was saying look I'm being attacked player right [TS]

  when in fact she's not was made and and these fake screenshots we're not a [TS]

  there's no way that you could put their not parody it's not like when our pal [TS]

  Darth you know post a picture that makes Trump's handsome like a Barbie doll [TS]

  sighs you know I mean like eats you know that that's parody yeah and-and-and [TS]

  nobody is you know it's nobody's fault [TS]

  this is to deliver attempt to to turn his followers to get them to actually [TS]

  believe that she was committing you know this these acts of hateful tweets as [TS]

  well which would encourage them to well hey if she's going to do that let's take [TS]

  the gloves off you know now fair's fair now we can you know go racist and [TS]

  misogynist on her and so what happened is this guy and this guy's been in [TS]

  trouble with twitter before where people have reported him for this sort of abuse [TS]

  and harassment leading a [TS]

  a caterer of her answers before he at one point he was verified and I think it [TS]

  was part of the whole thing is a journalist he works you know he's worked [TS]

  for legitimate publications before I think he's the tech correspondent for [TS]

  Breitbart now if you don't know Breitbart it's a a well I think all it [TS]

  will say everything you need to know is that a conservative-leaning website that [TS]

  was very very early on the pro Trump but yeah it's the current state is also if [TS]

  you have a look at great partner while I'm not sure you should buy it was [TS]

  founded by Andrew Breitbart who's like always was our age and then died and [TS]

  yeah i know people who like to actually like like friend of friend of friend [TS]

  like to very much personally his site was always try to eat help co-star [TS]

  Huffington Post and left and started this bar right thing and but it wasn't [TS]

  involved like white supremacy and whatever it was it was pretty far right [TS]

  and he's the one who found Eliot Spitzer's was it was picking away [TS]

  anthony Weiner's weiner can you have the shot of that I think your mail I don't [TS]

  anyway so but entrance so bright part now if you remember what break the site [TS]

  was like when Andrew Breitbart we're live and reign a this is like something [TS]

  even so far beyond that it makes you look back fondly at the time the answer [TS]

  by breitbart ran the site [TS]

  yeah right when Breitbart random I'm I was not a regular reader of it but I was [TS]

  familiar with it it was like something i didn't agree with but not something that [TS]

  i found offensive [TS]

  where's ya to me is it is borderline offensive its ya back to me it comes [TS]

  about as close as you possibly can in today's even if your anti quote-unquote [TS]

  anti politically correct there are still a motor comes of discourse that we all [TS]

  agreed to it comes about as close as you can in the guidelines of modern [TS]

  discourse to being like white supremacists in my it's it crosses into [TS]

  it almost I mean this is existence my lipstick without even getting the [TS]

  political aspect of it because there are left the left side extremists you do the [TS]

  same thing we saw a lot of times the left does not get the same criticism as [TS]

  the right the right seems to get a lot more coverage when they say extreme [TS]

  things and they virgin to you nativism and white supremacy and things in yo [TS]

  anti-semitism so forth [TS]

  left has unfortunately the far left has an anti-semitic strain as well and other [TS]

  kinds of extremism and the whole Bernie . revealed unfortunately that a subset [TS]

  not all not all boroughs not all Bernie supporters but a subset of Sanders the [TS]

  people who alleged to be may have been good trolls may have been deep [TS]

  supporters also engaged in some pretty severe activity its they but they always [TS]

  try especially in great part is a great job is Milo especially they're trying to [TS]

  come up to the line of hate speech without crossing to it when they get [TS]

  into something that's that's actually actionable when he gets sued and lose [TS]

  not just get sued and clearly lose or in which they would cross some line in [TS]

  which some aspect of decency would involve the might of the criminal [TS]

  statute like hate speech is not protected a line you know all speeches [TS]

  not absolutely protect United States there's been a lot of trials about it [TS]

  certain kinds of hate speech is for incitement especially if you're [TS]

  publishing website multiple countries i don't know if my camera my lives in the [TS]

  USU carries back and forth but like he could wind up being pretty no prosecuted [TS]

  if you cross certain lines in outside the US then here anyway so like that but [TS]

  they are they are knowingly skating up to the precipice and skating back when [TS]

  they will get as far as they can with the skates hanging over the cliff at me [TS]

  know before they they skate back [TS]

  yeah and I don't think it's any coincidence i mean part of it is that [TS]

  Leslie Jones was engaging on twitter but I don't think it's any coincidence that [TS]

  of the four Ghostbusters day one after the one who's not just a woman but is [TS]

  also black [TS]

  this guy's been in trouble with twitter before one . he was verified that's why [TS]

  I mention he's a journalist they removed his verified bad which is very odd thing [TS]

  I thought that was very unusual like I could see why twitter wants to deal with [TS]

  this guy but removing is verified badge was a very strange move to me because I [TS]

  didn't like it i didn't like it either because it a plays into this whole [TS]

  motion having the verified badge is this market prestige in which to me is like [TS]

  nonsense i don't know i mean i got verify didn't ask for it was like I it [TS]

  somehow [TS]

  what happened is when member mat Honan got a packed [TS]

  oh yeah so mat Honan who's now at BuzzFeed got hacked like two years ago [TS]

  and he wrote a great story about it and it was somehow that was like you know it [TS]

  was sort of a social engineering where his attacker called apple and said you [TS]

  know claim to be him and somehow got through a couple of the questions and [TS]

  God is you know mac.com as iCloud account reset and then once they had his [TS]

  email account that was the email account used by his twitter account and so his [TS]

  at m80 you know it seemed like the target of it was that the e because he [TS]

  has this very short twitter handle at m-80s name is Peter and he's using me [TS]

  yes that's right it's super short they really wanted that and I have a friend [TS]

  who has a very short handle that apparently it's part of her name but [TS]

  it's four letters and it relates to some programming thing so she's being [TS]

  regularly harass my script kiddies and how to get someone permanently suspended [TS]

  because of their docs attempts yeah blood or [TS]

  because of their docs attempts yeah blood or [TS]

  yeah it's a weird thing where like certain handles are so in demand [TS]

  Jesse char is at Jesse on Instagram everyone every photo shoot post there's [TS]

  some girl named Jesse you know not the same person but every time it's can I [TS]

  have your twitter handle is you know Dave Rutledge I works at met our friend [TS]

  that I've been running format by the way which is a fun place to report he's at [TS]

  underscore yeah his wife is at underscore underscore and their child is [TS]

  that underscore underscore underscore was wife's at underscore underscore got [TS]

  ripped off got hijacked somehow and he eventually kind of was trying to they're [TS]

  trying to go through channels they eventually kind of bump the place [TS]

  anybody help us in somebody at twitter is like got your back and took care of [TS]

  it but I'm she almost lost at underscore well anyway the term they took away is [TS]

  verified which is weird because to me it's almost like to me that isn't like [TS]

  we're punishing you it's like to me that would be like we're no longer certain [TS]

  that this account is who you is you yeah but they knew it was him there's no [TS]

  question that it was him so to removing verified badge is very strange you know [TS]

  but you the reason they do it though I think the reason they did it and I and I [TS]

  have the same reaction you too it's like Twitter should be anointing people they [TS]

  originally started the verified program to help celebrities and some news [TS]

  outlets prevent to have a legitimate account that showed it wasn't being a [TS]

  person into that they'd vetted it right and in they used to have requirements [TS]

  that you had to have two factor authentication or some other protection [TS]

  on your email or they would ask and so they've had entire newsrooms where the [TS]

  newsroom had shown them or discussed you know their techniques to prevent email [TS]

  from being hijacked so that they wouldn't be overtaken especially if [TS]

  they're like AP hijacks a bunch of news outlets get hijacked few years ago so [TS]

  but the thing that the thing that a reason I think they did it is if you're [TS]

  verified I'm not sure you probably know this you know there's they have the [TS]

  tools at least the only verified accounts [TS]

  yes you're looking at replies so I think this was to get him to not show up in [TS]

  the replies people are verified like celebrities and whoever is able [TS]

  yeah I know is you know I tweet so Chrissy Teigen the supermodel [TS]

  I think she is also awesome like I don't even know her super modeling career like [TS]

  I've seen pictures of her shes i like most supermodels one of those beautiful [TS]

  woman on the planet great right but I don't it's fine beautiful Sports [TS]

  Illustrated model right cover- ok so but that [TS]

  I didn't follow because at some point I noticed people between these incredibly [TS]

  funny really direct stuff she's saying about you know just like feminism or [TS]

  politics whatever but the way that which he has to defend yourself she's married [TS]

  john legend about people tell us just deserve him and he's been duped and [TS]

  whatever she is awesome she is so forthright and so gracious cookbook out [TS]

  so i told she tweeted something last night I wrote something back to her i [TS]

  can just some little thing and passing out this could be it [TS]

  she favored it and I'm like God just the thing as 4,000 favorites on it [TS]

  why would she do that I'm like oh she's using this filtering i have a verified [TS]

  tag so there is a little bit of a superpower that is associated with it is [TS]

  you have more visibility to people who are verified so I don't know some random [TS]

  journalist who works on a daily basis minh and I can but because of that it's [TS]

  like oh that I think is the power of that blue checkmark yeah well what [TS]

  happened yeah what happened for people like me and you is after owning got [TS]

  hacked and i think he got have I think I might be misremembering details I think [TS]

  he got hacked those really was very clear it was about his is m80 wonderful [TS]

  i think you're totally right but it's early but yes quitter [TS]

  I think as a precaution thought well maybe it's because he's a tech reporter [TS]

  and that all of a sudden in a very short period of time like I think me and you [TS]

  probably got verified right around the same time a lot of people at macworld [TS]

  did i do wait a bit I to ask them for actually a few years because I did you [TS]

  well the thing was I thought there's this developing thing where a lot of [TS]

  journalists were getting marked and I'm like look I'm a freelancer yeah having a [TS]

  blue checkmark makes me look like I'm not legitimate on Twitter and I'm like I [TS]

  don't care or not but if you're gonna have a system i want to be in it so that [TS]

  then it and likewise like I can direct message people who don't have dm's open [TS]

  and they can DM me even if I have dm's off because we're verified like that's a [TS]

  funny thing is a couple little things that are very soul to very strange club [TS]

  yeah it's a weird club and it's like it's got supermodels the president [TS]

  states and your me it's great i love being in this club [TS]

  I've told this before it is incredibly embarrassing but it's actually my son [TS]

  told his friends at school that I'm verified and all the girls in the class [TS]

  thought it was the coolest thing that they don't think [TS]

  that's awesome they were like no way they didn't believe it will believe him [TS]

  so like they have gotten so let's bring up a Twitter yeah they opened up a [TS]

  Chromebook and low tonight with her age and they're like that's so cool oh my [TS]

  gosh that is awesome that is terrible I I think it's just dreadful but anyway [TS]

  Milo you anomalous state they took away his badge they had suspended him [TS]

  temporarily for similar incidents in the past and it always come back and after [TS]

  this one right before he was supposed to go into some kind of event in Cleveland [TS]

  for the republican national convention he received an email that said this is [TS]

  it you don't you know your account is permanently suspend yeah one of the [TS]

  weird things about that i think they did the right thing I i think this guy was [TS]

  abusing Twitter and I don't think Twitter should tolerate it but it is [TS]

  weird it its there's a weird like down the memory hole aspect to it were once [TS]

  his account is suspended all of his tweets are gone [TS]

  yeah I don't know yeah I know that's gross but I do temporary suspension they [TS]

  will often make people agree to delete specific tweets an automated process [TS]

  before they're allowed to the count back so those only those tweets are deleted [TS]

  like however Otis something is I'm like well this is deleting history now no one [TS]

  knows he said these hundred thousand terrible things [TS]

  yeah and that was part of it and and never you know I wrote briefly about [TS]

  this on during fireball I importance and my take is that is supporters say and [TS]

  I've seen this argument with other people this is not the only time but [TS]

  that when when something like this happens and after instigating this sort [TS]

  of abuse and it they say well now that they've suspended his account there [TS]

  obviously they're sent this is twitter is a company that sensors conservatives [TS]

  and suppresses free speech right right as though the right to harass people on [TS]

  Twitter and and I don't think there can be any argument that what was done to [TS]

  Leslie Jones was outright harassment and she was she seemed genuinely emotionally [TS]

  distressed at what she was seeing and dealing with the the argument that is [TS]

  that should be protected free speech is just nonsense and it just shows that [TS]

  these people are at in my opinion not just you know racist [TS]

  and massage but they're all right like sociopaths that they got their shared so [TS]

  emotionally stunted that that that there it's very hard you really can't argue [TS]

  can't rationalize with these people and there are other readers there were I got [TS]

  some feedback from people uh you know reading fireball very thoughtful and and [TS]

  you know some people i know some just brand in a random readers who were very [TS]

  you know said I'm very uncomfortable with this you know i don't like I'm not [TS]

  racist misogynist they just weren't people who are Milo DiNapoli's fans but [TS]

  they were like I'm just very uncomfortable with twitter you know [TS]

  saying that somebody you know this is a loudness isn't there should be a [TS]

  free-for-all but I free you can't have a free-for-all you just sit in on what you [TS]

  could you could run a service that free-for-all but it's not going to be a [TS]

  pleasant what place [TS]

  yeah among other things we twitter has rules of engagement has terms of service [TS]

  and he was violating them [TS]

  yeah and and the question is how like the reason they got chris's about this [TS]

  is famous person attacked famous prominent person is already under attack [TS]

  as part of like a cultural war against you know people who may align with Trump [TS]

  and people may align with other progressive movements so it is so Leslie [TS]

  Jones interviewed by your friends Seth Meyers and his show and it was lovely [TS]

  and she's talking about this whole situation [TS]

  oh really i didn't see that yeah it was nice like 45 minute clip in the one of [TS]

  the things that sure was a bunch of people who sent this Empire like these [TS]

  little videos of just how old you know you're awesome Leslie you're so [TS]

  inspiration was like this like little girl an adult couple and just like all [TS]

  kinds of people is great and she was practically crying it was just you know [TS]

  so you're being so nice about it but she said he said you know should it arise [TS]

  itself asked a very good questions like should this rise level like you and I [TS]

  are kind of well-known like we have a lot of whatever lot of followers and [TS]

  she's like this should be and she said you know out read this is for should be [TS]

  for everybody no one should go like he said she said if I never spoke up about [TS]

  this no one would ever know it happened to me but I made a fuss right and if I [TS]

  she never talked back to people it's still would have a vector because it's [TS]

  asymmetric and I think that's nasty should the the question i would say too [TS]

  when you look at my like he's a provocateur that's his stock and trade [TS]

  he talks [TS]

  being a provocateur he wants to get a reaction and he's very good at it now [TS]

  it's unfortunate that we wanted he's not you know in my mind funny or interesting [TS]

  or decent or whatever I think he's off the charts in terms of you know being [TS]

  practically a sociopath the way the AXI access consistently and self-interest [TS]

  without regard for any standards of morality or decency and that's you know [TS]

  it doesn't matter i don't care if he's left to right and doesn't even talk [TS]

  about any political he has its his behavior and it's not political [TS]

  correctness when you're specifically trying to say things that you know will [TS]

  call it like political correctness is when you are told not say something that [TS]

  is a reasonable statement is not designed specifically to harm someone is [TS]

  actually part of social discourse it needs to occur to improve the social [TS]

  good that is political correctness I've encountered there's a lot of things as [TS]

  somebody who's your left of center maybe a liberal lifelong Democratic voter [TS]

  there are things that I did not feel comfortable discussing in public because [TS]

  I know I can't discuss them away without having a blowback that would be pretty [TS]

  severe even though i have no bad intent and I want to talk through an issue as [TS]

  opposed to make statements right so there is there is a chilling effect in [TS]

  certain areas i would call that because you can even bring up this happens like [TS]

  easy case which i can talk about it look at Israel support of Israel I'm a Jew my [TS]

  whole family married some was not Jewish but I the whole family back to whatever [TS]

  is Jewish I'm variant cover with Israel I think they're engaged i don't i'm not [TS]

  going to the place look like I'm very uncomfortable israel italy with their [TS]

  right it is very difficult to have any sane sensible conversation about [TS]

  Palestinians Arabs Israel with any combination of people other choose non [TS]

  Jews Muslims whatever no two people can get together and talk without somebody [TS]

  trading you for some opinion about it no matter what your stances and there is [TS]

  that sort of a problem with race in America to it's very difficult to have a [TS]

  discussion because no two people can agree how to talk about it without [TS]

  essentially accusing each other of engaging in something that is a foreign [TS]

  political correctness going out of your way to specifically knowingly inflict [TS]

  emotional harm or inspire threats against somebody even when you do it [TS]

  with the way that's plausibly deniable that is not convincing at all [TS]

  there's no question what that is so if Milo [TS]

  we're super left-wing and thought it was funny to go after you and somatic things [TS]

  against Jewish actress or something um I'm saying enough to the left so I [TS]

  systematic that's the closest you're not gonna have left wing people go after [TS]

  black people typically but you know that happens to you have issues with [TS]

  intersectional feminism blah going to live anyway so it doesn't think it's a [TS]

  political thing he's not raising a conservative . against Leslie he's not [TS]

  raising the issue even about the movie like he has a cultural the whole [TS]

  gamergate movement all right [TS]

  merge together with it and even the Ghostbusters thing has to do with people [TS]

  who feel like the people who were a what they thought was majority situation [TS]

  never felt the benefits of privilege now reject entirely the notion that they [TS]

  have any privilege but there's a structural cultural argument there that [TS]

  he that the basis of which the Ghostbusters is a terrible thing because [TS]

  it but that is not a conservative viewpoint he's he's parlaying off the [TS]

  the his followers [TS]

  actually i think is the point you're trying to make a actually well-founded [TS]

  concerned political correctness and the dial right now is set too far and that [TS]

  things that should we should be able to have a discussion about we feel like you [TS]

  can't get funny but whatever political correctness is race it's always about [TS]

  issues i'm like that's not political correctness that someone wanted to say [TS]

  something offensive and not liking the great Prince's as opposed to a valid one [TS]

  of a valid everyone have valid differently this thing I want to get [TS]

  with speech too is I wrote this long screen a few days together like 40 [TS]

  treats and sweets time I thought I was going to you wrote it really know it's [TS]

  crazy reality and I got a remarkable response but I thought people wouldn't [TS]

  listen I just had to say it because after Leslie Jones think it's like I can [TS]

  just a clear difference and I I don't study the First Amendment so I can't [TS]

  tell you where the sets in law is probably people have this morning would [TS]

  find there's a fence of speech and then there's like abusive hate threatening [TS]

  speech right and hate speech is a difficult thing under the First [TS]

  Amendment because the first men so broad but I think Twitter should encourage [TS]

  offensive speech but i think it should allow it and when I say offensive things [TS]

  you don't want to hear our offensive and sometimes things are very offensive if [TS]

  somebody wants to on their own account not adding me say they're not talking [TS]

  about me let's see let's see the best case they say they're Nazis want to say [TS]

  Jews are terrible I think we should all go to a gas oven i wish this would [TS]

  happen [TS]

  I hate that the world is run by jews somebody wants to say that well that's [TS]

  very general it's awful it's offensive [TS]

  I don't want to hear it i don't have to follow them if rather they're using [TS]

  their account to exchange information to create you know to organize around [TS]

  notions of hate to create not even to create policies but to to threaten other [TS]

  people to gain strength allows them to then practice hate speech against other [TS]

  people or if they're using the Twitter accounts even as like coded ways to [TS]

  organize or promote things that they linked to on websites or everyone knows [TS]

  on a website and there's some question with Milo about like what he's posting a [TS]

  bright bart vs what he's doing on Twitter and even more careful on Twitter [TS]

  to not be as you know provocative in some ways as well as on my report even [TS]

  like that's a different thing so like i don't so even if nothing my list that [TS]

  specifically individually if it weren't sent to Leslie was offensive like vile [TS]

  but not actually abusive that maybe there's a case made that that person is [TS]

  that there's some gray area there about saying things you don't hear because [TS]

  John there's tons of things that people say that you don't want to hear that are [TS]

  valid political opinions that you wouldn't say that person should be [TS]

  banned unless you actually wanted to decrease free speech rights a very [TS]

  different thing and you know it's a funny thing it just isn't it is a subset [TS]

  of these people seem to really think that free speech is that that is [TS]

  absolute that each but they should be able to do whatever they want say what [TS]

  say whatever they want to whatever they want and if they want to add reply [TS]

  Glenn that you should be put an oven they should be allowed to and you know [TS]

  you you should figure out how to filter if you don't want to see it right off [TS]

  route that it's your problem and I say that's hogwash that's it's absolute [TS]

  nonsense and I know these analogies between the online world the real world [TS]

  always break down they just all because you know that's it online is so totally [TS]

  different but like my analogy was that nobody would ever tolerate a restaurant [TS]

  no but no right no no same restaurant would never tolerate allowing a person [TS]

  to come in and harass fellow patrons and just go up and [TS]

  you know to you know make disparaging remarks about the color of their skin or [TS]

  that you know that they seem to be same-sex couple or whatever for anything [TS]

  you wouldn't do that why would you allow that would be it would be toxic and [TS]

  that's exactly what these storms of people harassing people on Twitter are [TS]

  all about it's like Leslie Jones is it exactly said if I'm in a restaurant says [TS]

  exactly the same thing so maybe she read restaurant a restaurant and a couple [TS]

  people shot in front of me like that's the restaurants problem that's not my [TS]

  problem i want to either i like the restaurant I want to come back but [TS]

  people who shop there uncooked go there and yeah i think there's also this that [TS]

  free speech is not the right to be heard it's the right to talk so here's here's [TS]

  what I see [TS]

  I'd see that it is actually hard to behave antisocial e in the real world [TS]

  especially after you get out of the old again it's let you know kindergarten [TS]

  there's a lot of anti-social behaviour and as you work your way through high [TS]

  school [TS]

  it decreases but there's off you know a lot of people have memories of a lot of [TS]

  anti-socials tormenters in you know middle school and high school and then [TS]

  all of a sudden it just magically goes away when you go to college and in real [TS]

  world and most venues it is extremely difficult to behave antisocial e there's [TS]

  all sorts of social pressure and there's physical pressure like if you behave the [TS]

  way some of these people behave on Twitter in a real-world there's a very [TS]

  good chance that you get punched [TS]

  I mean I mean no yeah it actually get punched [TS]

  like if so for example here's an example with you and I both know a lot of uh [TS]

  we've seen it and the last year to we've seen women who get you know stand up and [TS]

  speak out on on something that upsets these people and then they get literally [TS]

  told literally threatened with rape or death in a suite at at insert you know [TS]

  the username you know I know where you live [TS]

  you're gonna get raped if you did that to somebody in real life there's a very [TS]

  good chance to usually you should be like arrested [TS]

  but if like if somebody did that to my wife I would you know I would be [TS]

  prepared to punch the guy like because that's a dangerous situation [TS]

  people don't do that I mean that just doesn't happen so for these people who [TS]

  for whatever reason in their minds want to behave antisocial e the online world [TS]

  and we've known this you know like you said you've been on comp research since [TS]

  nineteen sixty-eight I mean the online world has seen this from the beginning [TS]

  days that there's antisocial behavior that you just didn't and don't encounter [TS]

  in the world because you there's no there are no repercussions you can get [TS]

  away with it you can do it so people have gotten into these hordes that that [TS]

  harass people and they seem to enjoy doing it and what they're being told now [TS]

  like with this Milo getting kicked off twitter is no you can't do it [TS]

  well if they can't do it then there's all of a sudden they don't have an [TS]

  outlet for this anti-social behaviour and part of it too is that you can [TS]

  behave you can go off into a what's that fortune or whatever and I gotta hang out [TS]

  with your fellow uh you know sickos and do this that the beauty of Twitter from [TS]

  this these these weirdos perspective is that they can add reply these these [TS]

  women and minorities and get there the get their jollies by knowing that the [TS]

  people who check the replies are going to see it and then when they engage it's [TS]

  like they just go bananas because it's like they know then its conformation [TS]

  like once they knew that Leslie Jones was actually seeing this stuff and [TS]

  reacting to it it just made it worse because this is exactly what they want [TS]

  to do they want to behave in an extremely almost sociopathic way and [TS]

  they can and there's no other outlet for it in the world and so now that twitter [TS]

  stand you know so they're standing behind free speech but what they really [TS]

  want is they want their special bullying venue to remain available special and it [TS]

  is probably not what we want says it's no that's a lot of regulation that's the [TS]

  way these guys see Twitter that is exactly the way they see Twitter there's [TS]

  a high degree of asymmetric quality and Twitter that could be changed and randi [TS]

  harper knows i've been working on tools i use her [TS]

  good was called a good game blocklist forget GGO blocker with the Block [TS]

  together as the tool and so you subscribe lock together as a web app [TS]

  with the twitter api integration you log into it and then you can add shared list [TS]

  of other people you want to maintain and you can set a few throttles and things [TS]

  so Block together exists a third party thing Twitter allows it and they're like [TS]

  12,000 people on Randy's list that are auto-generated from people who follow a [TS]

  few major accounts which will change because one of the few major accounts [TS]

  was mileage so which was at near 0 and 0 twitter by the way when it block [TS]

  currently suspended account that kind of dead forever at near will never be used [TS]

  again right now in it for the Sun burns out potentially so anyway so I randy [TS]

  harper wrote this thing I just want to ask about the other day it's not in [TS]

  February's a medium piece you can search for randy harper medium Twitter ideas [TS]

  and find internists putting out of nowhere but she had like twenty three [TS]

  ideas for Twitter she's a developer she's been working at 3p I she's met [TS]

  with them she's knows how everything works [TS]

  I'm the you know the outside of the black box she knows it as well as [TS]

  anybody trying to develop anti-abuse of tools the stuff she mentioned some of [TS]

  its trivial so it's harder she's not sure the severity of work required for [TS]

  all of it but those things are still out there and so the issue with twitter [TS]

  isn't so much that people can get together abuses that you as a party [TS]

  receiving it [TS]

  it is bad at asymmetrical warfare where someone can get a hundred someone can [TS]

  either create a thousand accounts and tweet at you or get a hundred thousand [TS]

  people like the the to the twitch twitchy there's a conservative site and [TS]

  they will often say basically that person is bad and then all the people [TS]

  who follow twitchy or go to the website will go off i get i say i'll say respond [TS]

  to something Sally Cohen says you know I've little back-and-forth her about [TS]

  something and we're being funny or whatever I think I'm being funny and i [TS]

  will certainly get all these people who hate follow Sally Cohen I've never been [TS]

  targeted by twitchy as far as i know and i get like you know a hundred or two [TS]

  hundred tweets from people who don't spell and flags their BIOS and just like [TS]

  you're about four blocks worldwide you know it's like it's not even [TS]

  intelligible it's just like random anger [TS]

  there's nothing I can do to stop fix a blocking wintertime even the auto block [TS]

  list on helping so if there were tools like if you started getting a lot of [TS]

  tweets you could think they're dials and tools you [TS]

  could adjust there are things that can happen that would alive that would [TS]

  either temporarily or as a permanent block you can prevent the course to [TS]

  literate was going towards the thing I was talking about they have an appt [TS]

  forgot what it's called [TS]

  they released a separate app is basically it's good if you have verified [TS]

  account works fine otherwise but it's a little tailored towards being a verified [TS]

  person with the large number of followers and spoke mostly posting [TS]

  rather than doing a ton of interaction with everybody forgot the name of it but [TS]

  I so Twitter just the other day so they're going to open verification to [TS]

  everybody with a prog opaque process that I think involve sending a picture [TS]

  ID to them as you're going to give them your OD so conceivably this is one step [TS]

  on the road to more people being verified and what if there are the [TS]

  hundred thousand most prolific engage Twitter people are all verified well [TS]

  that can be removed as well so maybe twitter is moving towards a more [TS]

  asymmetrical model where we were only following we give up falling random [TS]

  people if you can't be bothered about verify I thought for a long time Twitter [TS]

  should offer a basic level verification where you have to use a phone number to [TS]

  confirm even though phone numbers can be disposable and whatever it's a high [TS]

  enough bar that if you're just taking a text from a phone number your you know [TS]

  it's a hassle if that account gets banned or blocked [TS]

  it's a household the other phone number you can only get so many you can get a [TS]

  10,000 hundred thousand phone numbers but they could have some basic level [TS]

  that doesn't involve sending a photo ID and I could say look I don't want to [TS]

  deal with people are completely anonymous I only want to see people my [TS]

  timeline who I follow and you know where orchestrating only people who follow me [TS]

  who I want to see them so i let people who follow me if they've opted in [TS]

  because I get most of my eight from people don't follow me and i think it's [TS]

  true in general people don't follow Brianna Wu and then spew hatred or not [TS]

  fun [TS]

  typically people to follow you because they think it gives it a little extra [TS]

  were so I only want to see things in my time we will follow because I can block [TS]

  them or i could change that means checkbox and from people or people who [TS]

  don't follow me who if they're not retreat from somebody else that's cool [TS]

  see people who I follows between us but people who have gone through a very [TS]

  basic level verification that doesn't cost money like I don't want this to be [TS]

  a first-world developing world thing or whatever [TS]

  but there's only things they could do they could put lots of throttles and [TS]

  make any monitoring behavior [TS]

  John you know there's a setting called a filter low-quality tweets in your [TS]

  account right i know i did that it's only available to verify people so far [TS]

  it's been available for like two years if you check that they use their machine [TS]

  learning i think it's using machine learning to filter out tweets that look [TS]

  like they aren't very good [TS]

  I don't know I don't know I don't know what it is i think part of it obviously [TS]

  is that I am a white man i can do things like right about Milo yo napolis in a [TS]

  very critical way and at least knock on wood to date I don't get I get very I'd [TS]

  I got responses and Twitter but it wasn't any kind i wouldn't call it abuse [TS]

  me never people who disagreed and arriving you know people who started we [TS]

  disagreed a little bit a little bit of it was ugly but I don't get any kind of [TS]

  mob know it never happens [TS]

  whereas if I think if I was you know John Gruber I think there's a very good [TS]

  chance that i i i really do I should I detest I thought about a/b testing like [TS]

  creating a fake account that was under the name of a woman with the woman space [TS]

  with someone's permission some people have tried this on like OkCupid they've [TS]

  got my friends permission to use their image and just been like you know but [TS]

  then it becomes me becomes a start i want to be a stunning left when we lived [TS]

  through this people of color right people with your not you know sis male [TS]

  straight why it's like they already have enough problems that I don't need to [TS]

  pretend to do like racism tourism or something like that no other ISM I [TS]

  should try it though because I would be interesting i actually just by [TS]

  coincidence last night i crafted what I'd I think I don't know how else you [TS]

  better I should go to five-star i think i wrote my two most popular tweets of [TS]

  all time last night [TS]

  no no really yeah and it did beating my old one which was my original all-time [TS]

  best tweet was like from 2009 and I said I me see if i can get it right i said [TS]

  i'm looking up here I don't drink I don't gamble [TS]

  oh yeah and I thought I thought my one vice and what restaurant week you have [TS]

  read I was like okay I don't drink [TS]

  personally I don't gamble I don't drink my one vice is buy a new iphone every [TS]

  summer [TS]

  well that in line [TS]

  electrocuting carefully i remember that when I was great i was twenty-five [TS]

  hundred ninety days ago [TS]

  yes that's my was previously my all-time favorite tweet the last night after [TS]

  looking at your numbers this is hilarious [TS]

  what are you using to look at him i'm using that I like that star I'm gonna [TS]

  move it [TS]

  I'm just been enough i'm looking at nick kristof and are my friend Susan Orlean [TS]

  both retweeted it and chris hayes from MSNBC retweet it [TS]

  yeah i'm looking at one of them is nick kristof and maybe christoph did [TS]

  columnist for The Times Susan ordained staff writer for The New Yorker [TS]

  Christian Burton day [TS]

  yeah it is unbelievable like somehow it got into the cycle of like top political [TS]

  reporters and they already tweeted it so what your followed by you have an [TS]

  interesting group of followers overlap so people who this is what I've had some [TS]

  breakouts i have like six thousand retweets which is like a 50 times more [TS]

  than anything I've ever said before because i made a comment about breakfast [TS]

  it because of the morning after I'm like I'm listening everything and I'm like [TS]

  this isn't gonna happen like there is a plan here the and I wrote something [TS]

  about basically like brexit you know this could be such political suicide [TS]

  that that breaks it's not gonna happen i got retweeted like 6,000 times oh my god [TS]

  very interesting responses [TS]

  those were actually interesting i got hundreds and hundreds of replies from [TS]

  people so if I thought I was an idiot and I've been so people thought I do not [TS]

  like I don't vote in UK and other opinion on this but i love you can I [TS]

  wanted to succeed but i also got very informed things by people who are were [TS]

  torn about it or voted for remain anyway but yeah you're splitter this is running [TS]

  away so i have to tweet one after another and I connected him with three [TS]

  pots whatever they call it [TS]

  let's play what if what if Barack Obama had five children with three different [TS]

  women immediately followed by one of Hillary Clinton had five children with [TS]

  three different fathers [TS]

  I thought those were pretty brilliant i was you know what's funny and this is [TS]

  not two not credit you with originality and wait because you have a lot of it [TS]

  i'm going to butter you up but what I saw there was like oh my god is no one [TS]

  tweeted that before because the minute you see it it's absolutely obvious [TS]

  because they're all the other onstage the firefighters are on stage and you're [TS]

  like holy crap but like nobody had set it as succinctly and with the perfect [TS]

  timing as you address [TS]

  so I did my atra plane over so the one tweet the one mentioned doing both the [TS]

  first one with Barack Obama has a 3100 retweets and Hillary Clinton one is 3834 [TS]

  retweets so I even though i have an unusual twitter account large number of [TS]

  followers i had two tweets that were obviously a little provocative presented [TS]

  to an awful lot more people who you then who usually read my tweets and somebody [TS]

  at my current at reply stream is I can't get to the bottom I can't keep up with [TS]

  it right now you must be out of control i'm looking at when I look at the people [TS]

  who retweeted it there's a bunch of people in there that I know like Mike [TS]

  Montero and John siracusa and people are definitely the tech side of things and [TS]

  then you know it's a lot of a lot of the footmen like I mean looking at the top [TS]

  retweet and then it's a lot of just really interesting people who obviously [TS]

  found this to another thing but some of them have 50,000 60,000 there's an [TS]

  incredible i mean this is what's interesting about twitter is like it [TS]

  makes everyone have the ability to be a pundit or to be a stand-up comedian and [TS]

  reach an audience they don't otherwise and it's like sometimes you feel like [TS]

  you're shouting of the void like there's times next time can ask me you know from [TS]

  a large community us piano while ago he's like you know everybody follows you [TS]

  increase what you're saying [TS]

  do you feel compelled to say it and he wasn't used mildly castigating exciting [TS]

  going on about something and I was like I you know I did go on about something [TS]

  I'm like you know I don't think everyone who follows me actually like and how [TS]

  people follow me read every tweet this percentage little Twitter nobody can [TS]

  love so that's I didn't mean to be such . i met more like you can use Twitter [TS]

  analytics anyone can log in and you actually get to see the impressions like [TS]

  what percentage of your audience sees its fascinates good it's good and bad [TS]

  for the ego to we got a wrestling know if this shows it [TS]

  yes so these things that i say where I'm glad at times to be able to say I missed [TS]

  you say this because I want other people to know that other people feel it [TS]

  ah I the bottom line twitter has got to get a handle on it cannot just be [TS]

  something that they address on it somebody of Leslie Jones is stature this [TS]

  needs to be something that everybody feels like they're not going to be [TS]

  abused not and i agree there is a fine line and it is worrisome and Twitter and [TS]

  it's difficult and I'd I trust that can be [TS]

  on which is there should not try to prevent offensive speech or ideas that [TS]

  some people find the asset for being expressed on twitter but they should [TS]

  absolutely make it seem as the people are not going to be attacked and there [TS]

  is the different human being i don't know if you could do it all [TS]

  algorithmically I really don't i think you can use some algorithms to help but [TS]

  I think when somebody reports abuse [TS]

  I think somebody at Twitter who has any bit of empathy can easily discern this [TS]

  is just an offensive idea versus this is a personal attack on this other user is [TS]

  over some of its nuance but 1000 accounts with your than a hundred [TS]

  followers all tweet within a few minutes of each other at one account i think [TS]

  machines can learn what that means and i would even be in favor of in terms of [TS]

  the nuance of if there's any doubt you know don't suspend the account right but [TS]

  but it's so many cases where it's easily should be recognized and the other thing [TS]

  that Twitter cannot you can say well there's a scaling problem their twitter [TS]

  has an enormous head count [TS]

  I get it I don't know how sustainable that is i think it's it's you know what [TS]

  if we do a whole segment on the show about it is why in the world is Twitter [TS]

  have so many employees because it doesn't seem like there's much new stuff [TS]

  going on [TS]

  they certainly have the resources to hire a staff that can look into this [TS]

  abuse and I think it absolutely needs to be done and it ties into the amazon [TS]

  thing where it really is hurting Twitter's reputation or twitter is [TS]

  getting more and more getting a reputation as a place where if you [TS]

  participate you especially as a woman you're doing very good chance of being [TS]

  abused by Twitter Spencer literally hundreds of millions of dollars year [TS]

  literally hundred million dollars here on R&D it's it's astonishing [TS]

  I don't know what exactly can is already but it's a big part of their expense so [TS]

  they're working on it but I up bottom line anyway Glenn thanks for being here [TS]

  you've got a new book new books to promote to microfiber think i got i am [TS]

  got deep into the slack well do you use slack i know that you are mine alone [TS]

  I i am a regular participant on one slack that's yeah it's slack you can get [TS]

  i have 6 lakhs and part of and someone thankfully not very loud but I like them [TS]

  all but you can get out of control [TS]

  so yeah they're friends at picture books and montagna thanks long time Mac folk [TS]

  we're talking about like we started using it and it's like it's it's not [TS]

  quite like pokemon go that's not that addicted but boy it went from zero to [TS]

  100 millions really quickly and we were complaining amongst ourselves like how [TS]

  do we do this what's this thing was like oh if we can figure this out and we have [TS]

  used a thousand software packages in our life perhaps it would be useful to do a [TS]

  book so i did a book that's take control of slack basics that is for people who [TS]

  are users who want to be able to master it because the online documentation it's [TS]

  good offering matter how he's you know involved in documentation some aspect [TS]

  that many filters found a great guy and now slacks head of documentation and [TS]

  yeah I don't know they're working on their side but like they have any rights [TS]

  for side [TS]

  yeah they do a different day different things like online documentation is not [TS]

  like a motorcade control book is about like their experiential different things [TS]

  you know you've worked manuals workload stuff and so I wrote a book that's like [TS]

  it's divided subjects using channels and messages and even how to do emoji and so [TS]

  forth and it's the ideas you wake up one morning so many people know this [TS]

  happened to your 30 years old 40-50 and everyone's that you'll get a message [TS]

  from the office [TS]

  we're using slack started like oh god not another piece of software so the [TS]

  book is partly for people who has sort of slack thrown at them on other you [TS]

  know also for people who want to master it without having to go through sort of [TS]

  discover everything there's a lot of stuff in there and then i wrote a [TS]

  complimentary book that's how to setup a slack team which is pretty [TS]

  straightforward in some ways a lot of detail and so if you don't have an IT [TS]

  organization behind you but you want to set it up you want to run it well you [TS]

  wanna make sure people stay civil and how do you keep things correct and keep [TS]

  people from doing no stupid things but also just set up so it is secure and [TS]

  sensible as you want so i have this great URL you can go to take control . [TS]

  com of course financial books rather calm course but i have a slack help . me [TS]

  I got this URL and very happy about it like helped me i will actually put [TS]

  insurance i love just by the way I know it's probably not about you know maybe [TS]

  you did I don't know [TS]

  no Adam but i love the new cover design for the take control books so it's so [TS]

  great took a lot of years to figure out what we didn't like we do this [TS]

  illustrative approach and then the minute I saw the new designs when [TS]

  they're in progress i'm like oh this is it's like discovering what you're [TS]

  cutting away at a block of marble and there's the sculpture and so I think [TS]

  it's probably no surprise that you know you can guess that I you know you know [TS]

  my taste and graphics but well one of the things that I really love about the [TS]

  new cover design is that time putting the the where the author title is it the [TS]

  author title is in relatively small print them on the topic is a big print [TS]

  which is right because that's what take control books are about their very [TS]

  topical there's like they heard this is about slack admin so that's nice and big [TS]

  real nice fun all caps which I of course like then the author name is down below [TS]

  real small but because it's surrounded by white space it is so prominent and [TS]

  I'll of prominence in an author's name like it's cuz that's me is the whole [TS]

  point of the take control series is that they're not just turned out these are [TS]

  like the best writers in our racket who do these things it's fun too i love [TS]

  reading ebooks after I mean I kind of Miss print but you know faster [TS]

  turnaround [TS]

  yeah yeah so slack slack splits it's fun i know people had a jeff carstens [TS]

  longtime macro his wife have a two-person slide because it's for you [TS]

  can use it free it would go with some limits but not you know 10,000 people we [TS]

  have a slack group we set up if people go to slack helped me there's a link [TS]

  that's the public's lack team that anyone can join who just wants to [TS]

  understand what slack is like without having to set one up so it sports called [TS]

  slack bits and we're having discussions about mac stuff but also slack help and [TS]

  great we got several hundred people join you just they wanted a place to go with [TS]

  no overhead and because it takes five minutes to set up a slack team that you [TS]

  have to set one up and you're dealing with it so I like there's a lot more [TS]

  slit so my very last . lot more public slack team starting like this one for [TS]

  mac admins is a bunch of like hearing about private ones that have hundreds or [TS]

  thousands of people if twitter isn't careful some of the conversations gonna [TS]

  get drained off the private slack groups where everything is controlled that's a [TS]

  very interesting TYIN and lie on the slack that I'm on that point has been [TS]

  made before too [TS]

  there's a lot of you I've heard this from other people but on the board [TS]

  online with you know you probably know everybody's there is a bunch of mutual [TS]

  friends [TS]

  but it's relatively small group maybe like 15 of us and and no under a whole [TS]

  bunch of them have admitted that they personally use Twitter a lot less [TS]

  because of this this slack there thinking rather just communicate with [TS]

  this handful of good friends people who i would like to go and have dinner and a [TS]

  drink with then interact with the world at large on Twitter just because of you [TS]

  know a couple of knuckleheads soup make it unpleasant it's safe you know you [TS]

  know what is part of their group and even if it's a republic group is still [TS]

  industry we can kick anybody off and uncomfortable podcast network we've been [TS]

  comfortable slack without 50 or 60 people who are involved in the many many [TS]

  many podcasts Jason style is now i got up at the site and that's where a lot of [TS]

  my conversation that I don't trust to do publicly anymore because there's too [TS]

  many jerks on Twitter who will respond to it i have those conversations with me [TS]

  the same people who i would have a Twitter have not properly so sad but I [TS]

  my thanks to You Glenn you've been so generous with your time [TS]

  what a great conversation is a good episode i really liked it remember that [TS]

  URL if you do slack you got any interesting it go check out the books [TS]

  they're really worth it and slack definitely has a lot of power user stuff [TS]

  that you're going to be like I didn't know I could do that at slac help . me [TS]

  you'll find links to both books my thanks to our sponsors we've got Casper [TS]

  where you can go to buy a mattress and we've got fracture or you can print out [TS]

  your photos and global delights boom which will make on the audio on your Mac [TS]

  sound a lot better so my thanks [TS]