The Talk Show

149: ‘With Apologies to Hamilton’, With Special Guest Glenn Fleishman


00:00:00   the dulcet tones of your sweet voice gun i propose a poem by the way [TS]

00:00:04   oh well let's hear it trying to guess I'd it's about I was I was moved by the [TS]

00:00:10   ending of the Apple filing so and I've been listening to Hamilton we're too [TS]

00:00:13   much are you a fan of hamilton and you've been listening to iive not i am [TS]

00:00:16   aware that it exists and I'm aware that it a sensation and I agree that the [TS]

00:00:21   premise sounds it sounds fascinating but I've actually not like watched or [TS]

00:00:26   listened to any of it yet it's kind of a brain virus like I'd heard about it I [TS]

00:00:30   sort of was like well maybe i'll wait I'll see if somebody don't want to and [TS]

00:00:33   then I was like well listen to a song and then you just spiraled down so this [TS]

00:00:36   is just my poem inspired by the end of the Apple brief with apologies to [TS]

00:00:41   Hamilton Your Honor we must have earned reading Brandeis government seals a [TS]

00:00:45   danger not understanding the scope of their pleading the danger delivery lies [TS]

00:00:50   within mistreating Americans rights we posit they're exceedingly well meeting [TS]

00:00:54   but insidious encroaching demeaning [TS]

00:00:58   there we go very well said nipsey Russell for the ages [TS]

00:01:02   i'm also reading a ehrenberg papers because you know how the government [TS]

00:01:09   cited as yeah I've been actually going back and reading some of the historical [TS]

00:01:13   documents create some books from the eighteen hundreds in some later books [TS]

00:01:16   written about it found interesting article from 92 and looking at the [TS]

00:01:21   original ciphers that the codes and ciphers they used it's a very [TS]

00:01:24   fascinating thing to see what the state of cryptography was the late seventeen [TS]

00:01:28   hundreds early eighteen-hundreds all comes back to Hamilton it kinda does [TS]

00:01:33   it's really kind of funny who this is a tweet from my past buzzed Anderson last [TS]

00:01:41   night who would have thought Aaron Burr would get so much attention into is a [TS]

00:01:48   little weird and then they did Hamilton performance at the White House like not [TS]

00:01:51   long after the FBI was citing the umbrella amber ostensibly want to become [TS]

00:01:56   the Emperor Mexico need a plan [TS]

00:01:59   American history is kind of awesome and strangely tell you the Emperor from [TS]

00:02:04   Mexican restaurants ago just going to the mid-mississippi to try to schedule [TS]

00:02:10   some kind of event in a general who didn't want to get caught [TS]

00:02:13   up with it had been corresponding with him for years turned over the ciphered [TS]

00:02:17   letter and there's a trial and he was found innocent of treason because the [TS]

00:02:24   justice in the case of Frankenstein famous just Marshall Marshall thank you [TS]

00:02:28   said that no actual like event had occurred so it wasn't treasonous to [TS]

00:02:33   discuss this even if that's what was discussed so you will have been treason [TS]

00:02:37   to become the emperor of Mexico since that's not it wasn't trying to become [TS]

00:02:40   the Emperor united states he was trying to raise our armed forces to fight [TS]

00:02:44   against separate another nation that without the support and authority to of [TS]

00:02:50   america so there was some like I am losing the detail there but it was under [TS]

00:02:55   it was treason because he was acting against the interest in stated policy of [TS]

00:02:59   america and waging war that was the intent but without actually doing it so [TS]

00:03:03   number one up living for decades after that and never quite got back to the [TS]

00:03:08   same position aquatic when he was vice president between the duel and then [TS]

00:03:12   treason trial and then just kind of people not really wanted to be what is [TS]

00:03:17   that I went to the story of the tool that's this one of those things that [TS]

00:03:20   it's like you file it on your head that that the revolutionary times were crazy [TS]

00:03:24   and that they were you know like the remnants of the medieval era was still [TS]

00:03:28   you know floating around was conquered most things doing with was mostly bandit [TS]

00:03:33   was in it was noticed i believe it common practice in England I think it [TS]

00:03:37   was practiced in the barbarous colonies right and i am reading the channel [TS]

00:03:41   biography of Hamilton now so I haven't gotten to the intricacies there i recall [TS]

00:03:44   from my past reading and and bring some things after the play so become popular [TS]

00:03:49   went back and reread and they had to go to New Jersey and this line in the in [TS]

00:03:53   the musical yet you can do anything in New Jersey right you can just like [TS]

00:03:56   everything is legal in New Jersey the jack and they're going to jersey because [TS]

00:03:59   it was still ostensibly legal but no manslaughter was thin and murder still [TS]

00:04:03   illegal [TS]

00:04:04   so you could condense ibly in some states you could do all and if no one [TS]

00:04:08   was injured or killed [TS]

00:04:10   you might just walk away from it but such are not much of a dual though if [TS]

00:04:14   nobody's injector well it's to satisfy Honor I mean that's I think it's it's [TS]

00:04:20   funny the ritualized violence there's a really great essay in new york times for [TS]

00:04:24   a few days ago these philosophers talking about [TS]

00:04:27   what violence is they argue that violence isn't an act itself it's a [TS]

00:04:31   violence has a cycle you know there's an attack you attack someone that's not [TS]

00:04:35   personal violence their definition is that you're dealing with a cycle that [TS]

00:04:38   perpetuates itself that is violence and it's a great discussion that deals with [TS]

00:04:42   sports as a representation of of force and violence in a controlled fashion and [TS]

00:04:49   violence at the Trump rallies and it's I was blown away by it but doing is part [TS]

00:04:53   of that tradition is yes its overt violence but it is also under very [TS]

00:04:58   specific constraints and a lot of the time duels didn't result in anyone being [TS]

00:05:01   hit that was the point but everyone got to satisfy the fact that the express the [TS]

00:05:05   form of ritualized violence without actually killing someone but you could [TS]

00:05:08   also kill somebody [TS]

00:05:10   so why did Bern Hamilton getting a duel I burn was well let's see this this is [TS]

00:05:17   what you have to have to watch the musical 30 degrees can somehow spent [TS]

00:05:21   5,000 option tickets but that the dual the subject the duel was that basically [TS]

00:05:26   Hamilton was talking smack about birds and probably rightly so / really shifted [TS]

00:05:31   to whatever you need to do [TS]

00:05:32   he doesn't love double-dealing Helton was not a pure character either [TS]

00:05:36   necessarily but he he had been speaking publicly and privately and i believe [TS]

00:05:41   there was a specific dinner at that some comments came through sober wanted him [TS]

00:05:46   to apologize and Hamilton said I'm not saying anything that's not true and even [TS]

00:05:51   though his son Hamilton son had been killed in a duel [TS]

00:05:54   not many years before and both he and berhad seconded this is part of the [TS]

00:05:59   musical to had seconded another duel when they were younger they were the [TS]

00:06:03   seconds and in a case that involved i think was George Washington being [TS]

00:06:08   insulted [TS]

00:06:09   George Washington was more parties the dual even with that they went out there [TS]

00:06:13   and there's this long-running debate the musical is part of the channel biography [TS]

00:06:16   is whether Hamilton intended to shoot her or not whether Burr was reacting [TS]

00:06:21   with intent or thought he was about to be shot and and fire directly but never [TS]

00:06:28   quite known and we're talking about 200-plus years later it's amazing i did [TS]

00:06:34   the the takeaway i took from school when I learned about it was that it in and [TS]

00:06:38   you know and again who knows how [TS]

00:06:40   I carried it is but it's it seems as though like most of the founding fathers [TS]

00:06:44   were were genuine statesman and then a couple of them we're for real hothead [TS]

00:06:51   oh yeah well in there all I just I just watched the musical 1776 my kids my kids [TS]

00:06:56   are all head up about Hamilton now and you know where the other coast and [TS]

00:07:00   tickets are $MONEY fortune so we will hopefully see it when it towards you [TS]

00:07:03   know a touring company to seattle probably a B Company in like four year [TS]

00:07:07   hit 23 Kurzweil will go pay too much to see here but I'm like a look there is a [TS]

00:07:12   musical about the founding fathers like really really let's watch 1776 so we did [TS]

00:07:16   that I'd watched it for the incomparable we did an old movie club a couple of [TS]

00:07:20   years ago and watched and re-watched with them they loved it's all sort of [TS]

00:07:24   focus on John Adams primarily also Jefferson and Franklin and that I always [TS]

00:07:29   whenever I see these things like Michael read some more stuff about atoms they [TS]

00:07:33   are really interesting people they had rich lives that they were involved in [TS]

00:07:37   all kinds of stuff and they weren't they you know they were all people who have [TS]

00:07:43   their own lives in Congress was another thing wasn't there call wasn't seen as [TS]

00:07:48   one . in their life the content of Congress particularly but I don't know [TS]

00:07:51   it's a fascinating and Bo Franklin course the fastening lived a long life [TS]

00:07:55   and like sex workers and mistresses and all kinds of people and lived in France [TS]

00:08:00   and came back and anyway so great a great bunch that that's the musical john [TS]

00:08:06   adams apparently late-in-life wrote about how he was obnoxious and disliked [TS]

00:08:10   and late in life he looked quite a long time he and jefferson died on the same [TS]

00:08:13   day they are bitter enemies they died many miles part of the same day which is [TS]

00:08:17   one of those little and the day was july 4th yes that's right forgot you're right [TS]

00:08:22   mr. Foyle but an Adam's criticized his own personality late in life its musical [TS]

00:08:27   takes it up there's just a recurring line your boxes and disliked you know [TS]

00:08:30   that sir and I but apparently it was actually quite well liked and he was [TS]

00:08:35   feeding himself too harshly late in life so he wasn't as obnoxious as you go also [TS]

00:08:40   brings to mind from a comment you had a couple minutes ago at the dylan song [TS]

00:08:45   from the Traveling Wilburys moon in jersey everything's legal as long as you [TS]

00:08:49   don't get caught haha see Hamilton is great actually pulls from [TS]

00:08:53   physical theatre modern musical rap and hip-hop I heard like echoes of poems [TS]

00:08:59   were out like all of either so if you go to genius the annotated and people have [TS]

00:09:03   found it's not a pastiche but he pulls so lin-manuel miranda is a excellent in [TS]

00:09:11   terms of taking your ear and letting you hear an echo of something if you're [TS]

00:09:14   tuning if you're not it sounds good but if your big hip-hop fan you'll hear you [TS]

00:09:18   know rhythms patterns lines the kind of characterization if your musical theater [TS]

00:09:23   fan like I am you hear all kinds of things throughout you're like wait oh [TS]

00:09:27   you know there's that references 1776 there's a reference to South Pacific [TS]

00:09:31   Rodgers and Hammerstein and Sondheim references throughout sometime loves it [TS]

00:09:35   apparently which is great it looks like it's funny we're talking about the [TS]

00:09:39   seventeen hundreds but it's not right a challenge because so is Apple the FBI so [TS]

00:09:44   what's cracking up like what is the deal that this musical sweeping the nation [TS]

00:09:48   and then suddenly appear as equality all writs Act has been modified for 250 [TS]

00:09:53   years but anyway it's just the way it always works out you know these things [TS]

00:09:56   these things happen it's it's clear dies the militants it's all right serendipity [TS]

00:10:01   is a real like almost like a force it is pretty amazing i'm now the details of it [TS]

00:10:06   though it's kind of interesting we'll get into it again but it so it last week [TS]

00:10:11   the federal government filed up their final brief which Apple initially took [TS]

00:10:17   think it's fair to say took umbrage yes to several of the angles that the [TS]

00:10:25   government took in it I thought this was interesting because i was invited to the [TS]

00:10:30   to the conference calls that reporters were on both last weekend this week and [TS]

00:10:36   it was a real interesting difference like last week and they do them very [TS]

00:10:40   fast and it's it's obviously and I'll i enjoy thinking about this strategically [TS]

00:10:45   because I don't work fast right there in fireball is not a source of breaking [TS]

00:10:52   news the talk shows certainly is not as a source of breaking news i tend to i [TS]

00:10:59   tend to take my time and not not because i want to but because i have to add my [TS]

00:11:03   brain just doesn't work [TS]

00:11:05   quickly but it's fascinating to me to look at the the meta angle on it which [TS]

00:11:12   is that when these briefs drop Apple reacts very quickly so last week's call [TS]

00:11:19   i think that it was on friday maybe it was Thursday Thursday or Friday last [TS]

00:11:22   week when the government put them without and apple held the call with the [TS]

00:11:27   reporters an hour later so I I certainly hadn't gotten through the brief I guess [TS]

00:11:36   Apple at you know that you know apples attorneys had the full hour before they [TS]

00:11:40   started the call [TS]

00:11:42   Wow um and it's I guess that the strategy there is that they know that [TS]

00:11:49   once the brief is out the news media is some of the news media are going to you [TS]

00:11:53   know start writing takes an apple wants to spend get their spin on it out as [TS]

00:11:58   quickly as possible otherwise it's too late that they have to have you know if [TS]

00:12:02   they have to do something [TS]

00:12:04   press relations was quickly but I thought the difference between there [TS]

00:12:10   there there [TS]

00:12:12   what would you call it a hot take last week and this week is so different i [TS]

00:12:15   gets I detect a very quick cat cool confidence in their current argument but [TS]

00:12:22   anyway one of the things the government put in their brief last week was a [TS]

00:12:26   reference to this is again this is back to what's the year 7 1807 Chief Justice [TS]

00:12:33   Marshall that the government claims once ordered a third party to quote provide [TS]

00:12:37   decryption services [TS]

00:12:39   I've I wouldn't read the original transcripts that trial by the way [TS]

00:12:42   ok that's fed that i cannot i did not i want to hear about it but that the [TS]

00:12:47   government said that there's some precedent for for compelling somebody to [TS]

00:12:51   decrypt something that we can't decrypt is that Chief Justice Marshall had [TS]

00:12:55   ehrenberg secretary decrypt deciphered note and apple in its response i was [TS]

00:13:02   yesterday was a monday haha but yeah monday we got 100 yesterday yesterday [TS]

00:13:08   was yesterday [TS]

00:13:09   oh yeah it's all that but it's it's all a blur [TS]

00:13:15   says that they got the government got it wrong that Marshall did nothing of the [TS]

00:13:21   sort that the all writs Act had nothing to do was not even an issue in Burr and [TS]

00:13:26   what actually happened according to apple's brief is that ehrenberg [TS]

00:13:29   secretary declined to state whether he quote understood the contents of a [TS]

00:13:35   certain letter written in cipher on the ground that he might incriminate himself [TS]

00:13:38   so another team just poking the Fifth Amendment to declined to say whether he [TS]

00:13:41   understood the ciphered message and what the court decided was that he could [TS]

00:13:47   answer that because simply entering whether he understood the cipher would [TS]

00:13:51   not incriminate them right that's which is our fascinating if you're you know [TS]

00:13:55   sort of a.e you know like at a like I am just sort of like a broad strokes like [TS]

00:14:02   interested in civil liberties and these in cases like this like edge cases [TS]

00:14:06   around the Fifth Amendment can be fascinating and that's an interesting [TS]

00:14:09   one hears you know in its again what over 200 years ago its sophisticated [TS]

00:14:14   question yeah they're leaving this is what I love living in 2016 and be able [TS]

00:14:18   to pull up instantly transcripts of trials that happened over 200 years ago [TS]

00:14:22   with the court anyway the bottom line this is from Apple's brief in a footnote [TS]

00:14:25   the court did not require the clerk to decipher the letter that's correct [TS]

00:14:31   that's correct [TS]

00:14:32   who is he it was a it was the there are two questions being put in was do you [TS]

00:14:37   understand the size of that paper did the paper come from Colonel burr was [TS]

00:14:41   written by my bias direction the last question summary but last question ought [TS]

00:14:45   to have been first stated the witness does not say why the answer the question [TS]

00:14:49   of the tenancy to criminate him and so it goes back and forth because the judge [TS]

00:14:53   ultimately the issue is if I right he didn't have to decipher their asked him [TS]

00:14:59   if he knew the contents of the letter not to provide the cipher key in fact [TS]

00:15:04   just to be pedantic here was both a code and decipher the code book actually to [TS]

00:15:09   that they will concern and burn others have been using the first one since the [TS]

00:15:13   1790s I think and then later when they modified that codes for like president [TS]

00:15:18   vice-president France and so forth and then there was also a simple replacement [TS]

00:15:21   site for that use the rotating leather scheme so you have a letter to the top [TS]

00:15:25   like Cuba or France [TS]

00:15:27   particularly you take the letters following them down assign the numbers [TS]

00:15:30   and then you could you read across the row to pick the numbers corresponding so [TS]

00:15:34   complicated for the day because you could work out simple site substitution [TS]

00:15:39   ciphers are relatively easy to work out easier with computers but definitely [TS]

00:15:43   doable in the day and that's not that protected but codes are very difficult [TS]

00:15:48   so without knowledge of the code you can determine from frequency of appearance [TS]

00:15:51   and other characteristics you can sometimes achieve this but he wasn't [TS]

00:15:55   asked you know the cipher it was do you all right but it wasn't for the cipher [TS]

00:16:01   right was asked do you know what it said do you understand the contents and he [TS]

00:16:05   was concerned that any statement would allow him to it would provide it would [TS]

00:16:11   put in the position of incrimination right fascinating but i have to say it [TS]

00:16:16   sounds to me like apples exactly right that it's no precedent whatsoever for [TS]

00:16:20   compelling somebody to decode and encrypted pretty clearly very clearly [TS]

00:16:26   anyway what's a one of the interesting side effects of all this and the end of [TS]

00:16:29   invoking things like these that this burr case is this that i did not know [TS]

00:16:34   that the founding fathers took work so commonly in use of codes and ciphers and [TS]

00:16:39   stuff ruling apparently one of the things i read was like the first [TS]

00:16:42   Postmaster General was like a political enemy of a couple of them i forget which [TS]

00:16:49   I forget others that the way that their political things are aight i get it [TS]

00:16:54   mixed up but long story short that they they really felt some of them really [TS]

00:16:58   felt like they needed to because they knew that this Postmaster General was [TS]

00:17:01   reading your mail [TS]

00:17:02   oh yeah there's a contrite mail was often open its interesting thing that [TS]

00:17:06   our current mail system i have forgotten how far back the law goes it might be [TS]

00:17:10   the eighteenth and nineteenth century that it's illegal for any party to open [TS]

00:17:14   the mail that concluding the post office except with like specific warrant or [TS]

00:17:18   subpoena another Hamilton musical reference by was Hercules Mulligan best [TS]

00:17:23   name in the world he was transporting messages he was not a loyalist but he [TS]

00:17:27   was sort of a spy going back and forth to New York is a textile importer and [TS]

00:17:32   clothing shop is taylor and he and his slave whose name was Cato we're sending [TS]

00:17:37   messages back and forth often in [TS]

00:17:39   code or in other you know trying to decide the meaning of it eventually [TS]

00:17:44   became too dangerous but he's one of the reasons that they were able to to [TS]

00:17:48   Hamilton was able to assist General Washington in some of the battles around [TS]

00:17:53   and it's amazing it is an amazing named Hercules molecule a smile again it's [TS]

00:17:58   awesome great partner in the flight ya konan coats with an important part i [TS]

00:18:02   think i forget what the earliest cryptographic stuff is that there's a [TS]

00:18:05   thing of wrapping a strip of paper around a cylinder assert dimension like [TS]

00:18:10   pencil-sized thing that was used so you could right across it and then unfurl it [TS]

00:18:14   must you the dimensions you will be able to figure it out all yeah I've seen that [TS]

00:18:17   I've seen that and that's I think where the earliest uses of script and simple [TS]

00:18:21   cipher substitution if you don't know what it is and it's only become more [TS]

00:18:25   complicated overtime but code has a code interception of code and people being [TS]

00:18:31   executed for possession of what was seen as code that was never decipher doll big [TS]

00:18:35   issues are mainly for thousands of years when i was a kid i got i spent a couple [TS]

00:18:39   I mean it's been a long time i was truly you know like grade school age but i [TS]

00:18:43   spent like you know a 1.1 of my obsessions became codes and stuff like [TS]

00:18:47   that and boom I very high speed to remember that one where you wrap the [TS]

00:18:51   paper around like a ruler type thing of a certain known with and and then when [TS]

00:18:59   you unwrap it [TS]

00:19:00   it just looks like gibberish again like you said that's not the most secure [TS]

00:19:03   nobody else knows it then I don't have sophistication the other side it's a [TS]

00:19:08   people like why someone with gibberish I i have a very vivid memory i am almost [TS]

00:19:14   certain i was in first grade but it was certainly like first or second that [TS]

00:19:20   Kellogg's had a campaign and that three or four of their like flagship kitty [TS]

00:19:28   cereals had little little plastic things in them so like the toucan sam one might [TS]

00:19:37   be blue and the frosted flakes Tony the Tiger one was yellow and maybe the Sugar [TS]

00:19:43   Smacks one was red [TS]

00:19:45   you know with the rabbit rabbit or whatever his name was my ribbit frog you [TS]

00:19:49   know I mean but they're so used to be different colors and [TS]

00:19:53   and you would if they were all just a different like 26 character cypher you [TS]

00:19:59   know where it would just be a different rotation you know sort of like rock it [TS]

00:20:03   was like a rock 13 but you know Tony the Tiger's rot 17 and and the frog one was [TS]

00:20:09   rotten 11 or something like that but I was fascinated like AI as a first-grader [TS]

00:20:13   I felt pretty clever that I figured out the differences between them but then it [TS]

00:20:18   was cool because then we was it like with friends at school we could send [TS]

00:20:22   coded messages to each other and it took so long spent you know spinning the disk [TS]

00:20:25   it would just be like it's been altered drink your ovaltine yeah exactly eggs [TS]

00:20:32   attack it like i thought it's called the script script holly is the Greek rod [TS]

00:20:38   that was used for encryption substitutions diaper I knew there is [TS]

00:20:41   something that's not the earliest Egyptians were maybe a thousand years [TS]

00:20:44   before for that there's also a famous story of the word Shibboleth you know [TS]

00:20:50   it's a great story it's not about code per se but spies in a camp [TS]

00:20:54   some might camp and the leader says say you now should be left in the spies were [TS]

00:21:01   unable to pronounce the show sound and they said symbol F and were put to death [TS]

00:21:05   social life is like that pass phrase like a thing you say to be shown that [TS]

00:21:09   your member of a tribe always like that these divisions go back thousands of [TS]

00:21:14   years so I'm probably the origin of being able to put words on paper people [TS]

00:21:18   were figuring out ways to make other people not be able to read those right [TS]

00:21:21   well to communicate at length right yeah because you could always communicate in [TS]

00:21:25   private [TS]

00:21:26   well I mean I mean obviously you could if your room is bugged or whatever [TS]

00:21:28   there's there's ways around but if you where you see if you're reasonably [TS]

00:21:31   secure that your room is the room know you're an inn is not being bugged you [TS]

00:21:35   can have a private conversation with somebody that the trick is how do you [TS]

00:21:39   have a private conversation with somebody at a distance and it's like you [TS]

00:21:42   said it's long as we've been communicating at a distance even if it's [TS]

00:21:46   like just begin by sending dispatching a messenger there have been codes [TS]

00:21:51   yeah i mean how are you saying that my people aren't proof spaces is not [TS]

00:21:55   exactly popular in our minds my grandparents grab my family was [TS]

00:21:59   furniture and pressure stores for many many years and my grandfather developed [TS]

00:22:03   a code [TS]

00:22:04   number code and letter code based on our last name and his mother's initial so [TS]

00:22:08   they could put the retail pro the wholesale price of things on the tags [TS]

00:22:11   that customers knowing so we're gonna go shot the new exactly how they could go [TS]

00:22:14   see clever fell out my grandpa very very clever boy that's the type of thing that [TS]

00:22:21   nowadays people you know yet [TS]

00:22:25   eventually some consumer web site would come out with the yeah yeah go into this [TS]

00:22:29   mattress store has a deep especially ya know they can go [TS]

00:22:33   yeah alright let me take a break here and thank our sponsor it's our good [TS]

00:22:36   friends at casper you guys know Casper they sell mattresses online obsessively [TS]

00:22:41   engineered mattresses at shockingly fair prices there's one of the there's my [TS]

00:22:47   favorite thing about casper mattresses they don't make you choose between like [TS]

00:22:51   two three four five six seven different types of mattresses are the technologies [TS]

00:22:55   and now they figured it out for you just the right sink just the right balance [TS]

00:22:59   they've taken to commonly used mattress technologies latex foam and memory foam [TS]

00:23:04   and they've made their own custom cocktail between the two for better [TS]

00:23:10   nights and better days [TS]

00:23:11   good sleep so all you do is pick what size you want [TS]

00:23:14   so you know what size bed you have so you just go there you need a new [TS]

00:23:17   mattress get the right size and as crazy as it sounds I know I've said this every [TS]

00:23:23   time they sponsor the show it sounds crazy to buy a mattress without like [TS]

00:23:26   trying it out but what kind of a tryout do you actually get a retail store [TS]

00:23:29   anyway it's actually kind of gross because other people have slept on it [TS]

00:23:32   right and just like being there with all of your clothes on and laying on a bed [TS]

00:23:36   for two or three minutes isn't gonna tell you how you sleep on it so actually [TS]

00:23:40   the way that Casper does it if you think about it it's a traditional but it makes [TS]

00:23:44   a lot more sense they have a risk-free trial and return policy you try sleeping [TS]

00:23:48   on a Casper for a hundred days and if you don't like it up to a hundred days [TS]

00:23:54   they'll do just call them up [TS]

00:23:56   go to the website and they'll take care of free will just take it right back [TS]

00:24:00   no no questions asked I've even heard from listener the show sent me an email [TS]

00:24:05   and said that [TS]

00:24:07   that they did it and that they bought it because it was on the show and it was [TS]

00:24:11   like for whatever reason wasn't wasn't to their liking and it and and said in a [TS]

00:24:17   little just wanted to say I know you keep saying that they take them back but [TS]

00:24:20   it literally was as easy as can possibly be to take a mattress back here is the [TS]

00:24:25   sum of their prices it retailed ego retail for mattresses you're probably [TS]

00:24:28   gonna pay like $1,500 or more for premium mattress Casper's start at 504 [TS]

00:24:33   twin 754 full 854 queen and just nine hundred fifty bucks for a king-size [TS]

00:24:39   mattress so you just can't lose [TS]

00:24:42   here's where you go for more information go to Casper dot-com cispr dot-com / the [TS]

00:24:48   talk show and use that code the the talk show and you'll say fifty bucks off [TS]

00:24:54   their already excellent prices free shipping to you free shipping back if [TS]

00:24:58   you want to send it back and great prices Casper calm / the talk show so I [TS]

00:25:07   guess we should talk in detail about the Apple FBI case [TS]

00:25:12   yeah . gentlemen weekend especially because i feel like this is the one [TS]

00:25:15   thing this is the thing I mean we can talk about next week's event and what [TS]

00:25:18   our last minute speculation is whatever but that's it [TS]

00:25:21   you know it's interesting but it's of the moment whereas that this F Apple FBI [TS]

00:25:25   thing is is truly I I don't think it's hyperbole I think it's genuinely [TS]

00:25:30   important to the future of the Republic I i am absolutely i think it's actually [TS]

00:25:34   one of the most fundamental issues of privacy we could possibly facing out and [TS]

00:25:39   we have the best advocate on our side and the government and extremely [TS]

00:25:44   disappointed the unlockable administration's stance [TS]

00:25:47   I feel like we're for being sold out because rich mogul has this line to talk [TS]

00:25:54   to him about it he says it's not on my watch [TS]

00:25:56   isn't that is what is driving and he says he's worked with law enforcement a [TS]

00:26:00   lot a lot of good takes on this subject and he said nobody wants to be the guy [TS]

00:26:04   when the event happens and you could have been something else and you didn't [TS]

00:26:08   do everything so the FBI is doing is scorched earth policy to break apart [TS]

00:26:12   this thing they try to find a test case because james comey and a few other [TS]

00:26:16   people are saying this is not going to be the thing where we lose not i'm not [TS]

00:26:20   gonna be the person responsible for the next terrorist event so I'm going to do [TS]

00:26:23   everything even if potentially it threatens Liberty that's not my concern [TS]

00:26:26   my concern is preventing this attack and I think it's true too i think they're [TS]

00:26:30   being such Bulldogs about it it but I i agree with you i think this is a tough [TS]

00:26:34   that you been writing about this I think is a wonderful way the waterproof spaces [TS]

00:26:39   is a big issue and company said that I and then Jonathan knows the gr ski has [TS]

00:26:44   been writing about this too is just wrote recently about how there are many [TS]

00:26:47   waterproof spaces in america american law and the Constitution state laws [TS]

00:26:51   carve out lots of places in which warrants aren't allowed [TS]

00:26:54   great post but are we allowed only the privacy of our own mind what here's the [TS]

00:27:00   thing you know you're not talking about this on twitter is there's always [TS]

00:27:03   natural extensions should ISPs preserve every email you ever sent like coming to [TS]

00:27:07   the email permanently [TS]

00:27:09   what if their brain scanners what if brain scans existed tomorrow there's [TS]

00:27:12   technology starting to be able to pull images out of people's heads right with [TS]

00:27:16   fats I mean would they be right [TS]

00:27:18   would they be allowed to use that honest suspect in custody [TS]

00:27:21   like it's not science fiction right it's not science fiction we're seeing I mean [TS]

00:27:24   people are showing their actually like having some glimmerings of this where [TS]

00:27:27   it's real it's something that's not telepathy its science in a lab they can [TS]

00:27:30   show and so holy cow you know this isn't impractical theoretically could they [TS]

00:27:34   compel a criminal suspect that too to have like a brain scan and ask them [TS]

00:27:41   questions sort of like that it like worked today it's a lie detector test [TS]

00:27:44   statistic magic like what is the passcode to your phone [TS]

00:27:47   what's the passcode to your phone and if they read a number out of the guy's head [TS]

00:27:51   and try it and it works is that admit now but I'm exactly so I don't do it [TS]

00:27:55   live it i know that i don't think they can do that today to my knowledge [TS]

00:27:58   there's no such device today but that does not seem [TS]

00:28:01   like it's the unreasonable even within the scope of your my lifetimes [TS]

00:28:05   I mean in terms of absolutely not the way that that that we're starting to [TS]

00:28:08   understand the brain and I've said this before i said this on the show and I [TS]

00:28:11   really it to me it really it's interesting what if what if the some [TS]

00:28:19   future computing device that it provides capabilities like what we used today [TS]

00:28:23   with an iphone what if it's embedded in your body but if it's something that you [TS]

00:28:28   place in your wrist [TS]

00:28:30   what if it's something you do put in your head right but what if it's a and [TS]

00:28:35   again I i'm not an expert on Alzheimer's and I know that there are some [TS]

00:28:40   biological you know what the solutions are our improvements to to alzheimer's [TS]

00:28:45   research going on but what if you know somebody 10 15 20 years from now invents [TS]

00:28:50   some kind of very small system-on-a-chip that can be embedded in somebody's brain [TS]

00:28:55   to help with the the cognitive decline then the dementia that's caused by [TS]

00:29:04   Alzheimer's it would that device [TS]

00:29:07   therefore you know then be susceptible to the government reading the contents [TS]

00:29:13   of it to me did you know it it's not a preposterous to to pose hypotheticals [TS]

00:29:20   like that and my answer would be no you know that it's it's no different than [TS]

00:29:24   there's not that much different and it's going to be less as time goes on between [TS]

00:29:28   artificial digital devices and our capability of reading the you know the [TS]

00:29:37   the meccanian of treating our brains is the mechanical devices they are at a [TS]

00:29:41   certain level it's it's also i think the waterproof space is a great metaphor [TS]

00:29:45   because in fact every place we have in in our brains and in reality that we own [TS]

00:29:50   our all want proof space until the war is produced and I think there's this [TS]

00:29:54   interesting thing where the view of the FBI as they've expressed the Department [TS]

00:29:58   of Justice is that all spaces are open to the government on demand and that is [TS]

00:30:02   simply not mean it is both true and not true [TS]

00:30:05   people can also Express civil disobedience and be jailed for contempt [TS]

00:30:08   or for violating court orders or other charges they can go to jail for refusing [TS]

00:30:12   you have a lot of people who [TS]

00:30:13   nobody in the past sometimes in oblique gone to jail rather than give up [TS]

00:30:19   information or or access or locations of things i think by default we should [TS]

00:30:24   assume that all places are private [TS]

00:30:26   I think this notion is ajar ski wrote about this also is that the Bill of [TS]

00:30:30   Rights is not a instructions on what the government can do its instructions on [TS]

00:30:35   what citizens rights are and it prescribes the government from doing so [TS]

00:30:41   much so it's not a plan to use to circumvent rights it's a giant wall to [TS]

00:30:47   prohibit the government from excess and so the idea that every space we own is [TS]

00:30:51   really owned by the government is terrifying that's really you know it's a [TS]

00:30:54   very much a conservative and far-right view that the government you know any [TS]

00:30:58   Democrat Democrat elected government would be have that in place of the [TS]

00:31:03   government owns all spaces so they're playing into the hands at some point of [TS]

00:31:06   that and I think people who are on the left of the spectrum would say also that [TS]

00:31:10   even if they believe in a bigger role for government or different nature of [TS]

00:31:13   government regulation and control that the government having sort of a defacto [TS]

00:31:17   right to all of our private spaces our homes our computers and you know by [TS]

00:31:22   extension reminds that that also is not in keeping with the nature of what you [TS]

00:31:27   know civil human rights are being our and it would be in the nature of our [TS]

00:31:32   country so I mean you come down this is like what percentage of iphones are used [TS]

00:31:38   for crime notes . 00 whatever percent and the idea that all iphones have to be [TS]

00:31:44   open to inspection at any time like bags going through it an x-ray machine or the [TS]

00:31:48   TSA with their locks that have been duplicated because they allowed photos [TS]

00:31:51   to be taken of the master register Keys like that's what the FBI is proposing is [TS]

00:31:56   will have a way for you know the TSA style investigators to get in which [TS]

00:32:00   means everyone get it right and there's a the part that to me is the most [TS]

00:32:05   disappointing single most disappointing and in the in the Obama administration [TS]

00:32:11   and [TS]

00:32:11   you know I'll just admit it and in Hillary Clinton has a spouse the same [TS]

00:32:16   opinion is a belief in this magical thinking that if we just put smart [TS]

00:32:20   enough people into a room together that they can come up with a way that that [TS]

00:32:24   this would this backdoor solution would only be available to law enforcement [TS]

00:32:28   that we're not asking you to make a backdoor that anybody could get into we [TS]

00:32:33   just want to backdoor that law enforcement can get into when we have a [TS]

00:32:37   warrant which sounds reasonable and in some you know fictional other universe [TS]

00:32:42   where that's mathematically possible that might be great i actually I i think [TS]

00:32:47   that there's good reasons why a civil libertarian would be opposed even to [TS]

00:32:51   that idea like a like let me just put this out there that and and I tend to [TS]

00:32:56   lean that way i would listen to the argument but i tend to lean towards even [TS]

00:33:00   if that were possible i don't think it's a good idea and I think it's contrary to [TS]

00:33:04   the values that are already in our bill of rights but it is an idea but the [TS]

00:33:09   simple truth is that it's math all experts agree [TS]

00:33:12   everybody who understands encryption dennis is it I i don't think that you it [TS]

00:33:17   it's more than even like a i mean it's it's like provably incorrect you know [TS]

00:33:24   like as opposed to let's say climate change where you can say you can argue [TS]

00:33:27   that only 98 or 99 percent of expert climate scientists agree that the you [TS]

00:33:33   know what we're seeing is man-made [TS]

00:33:34   I mean with with cryptography and back doors it's a hundred percent agreement [TS]

00:33:38   because of where you're totally right i just realized I haven't seen any any [TS]

00:33:42   crypto deniers out there doing this is possible only see politicians in law [TS]

00:33:46   enforcement right it's an expensive [TS]

00:33:48   well that's part of the beauty of trying to convince 12 your own son of it i'm [TS]

00:33:53   trying to get when i talk to my twelve-year-old son it does not have the [TS]

00:33:56   enthusiasm from mathematics that I did that that's the beauty of mathematics [TS]

00:34:00   it's it's it you know and and it in the way that computer science sort of falls [TS]

00:34:07   out of mathematics could go a long way in here like when I went to drexel I got [TS]

00:34:11   my degree in computer science it was from the Department of math and computer [TS]

00:34:16   science [TS]

00:34:17   it was one department from mathematics and computer science and it well they've [TS]

00:34:20   since broken it out in that computer science is often a [TS]

00:34:23   I don't know what they did but it's an expensive building probably yeah I i [TS]

00:34:28   think that but i think that what happened is that politically the [TS]

00:34:31   computer science department grew to you know used to be like it was the math [TS]

00:34:36   department with a little cookie computer science group of professors and then [TS]

00:34:41   computer science got so popular and so important to our society that growth but [TS]

00:34:45   anyway I just thought and it's not just because i went two directions where they [TS]

00:34:49   put them together it just made sense to me though that when you type a computer [TS]

00:34:52   program and it either works or doesn't work it's it there's a certain Beauty to [TS]

00:34:57   that and I think a lot of the people who listen to the show are probably not in [TS]

00:35:00   your head like that's why they got into this racket because there's a statistics [TS]

00:35:05   just sore statistics lie math doesn't write correct and it's you know it's [TS]

00:35:12   just disappointing to me that they keep you know pushing back on that there was [TS]

00:35:15   a there's a line that Apple's attorneys used its was in the sort of off the [TS]

00:35:21   record you can paraphrase you know the rules were from the call that you can [TS]

00:35:26   paraphrase it not quoted directly but the gist of it was that that they talk [TS]

00:35:31   to us law-enforcement frequently and they are happy to do so and happy to [TS]

00:35:37   work with the government and that they are of course you know opposed to [TS]

00:35:42   terrorism and crime and all this stuff and that they are also happy to you know [TS]

00:35:47   willing and happy to comply with warrants and provide information that [TS]

00:35:51   they have but that every time they meet with law enforcement about this issue [TS]

00:35:57   law enforcement US law enforcement comes at the discussion with the angle of how [TS]

00:36:04   can you let us into the iphone and never wants to discuss the question of should [TS]

00:36:11   we be able to get into the iphone it's just not it there intransigent in [TS]

00:36:17   transit gent on the point of how do we get into the iphone oh here let me give [TS]

00:36:22   you a good thought experiment because i think there's this issuer people i want [TS]

00:36:27   to say that I keep stating on the macro podcast everywhere I keep saying look I [TS]

00:36:31   absolutely support the right of illegal boring i don't like extra judicial stuff [TS]

00:36:34   i don't like the visor court [TS]

00:36:36   I don't like extra [TS]

00:36:37   constitutional things legal rendition all that stuff i like the legality the [TS]

00:36:42   constitutionally created warrants right and i think the FBI should be seeking [TS]

00:36:47   every available reasonable means and sometimes even almost unreasonable with [TS]

00:36:52   a court holding them and checks they don't violate the Constitution totally [TS]

00:36:55   support that I am absolutely a I want to trust the government the government [TS]

00:36:58   isn't always trustworthy but i believe it's the best system we have to ensure [TS]

00:37:01   justice we need to improve the quality of Justice as opposed to constraining [TS]

00:37:04   them from being able to use tools that are legal and and courts oversee in a [TS]

00:37:09   public way that is fair or whatever so here's a thought experiment i was [TS]

00:37:13   reading a paper academic paper year or so ago you know that cameras and cell [TS]

00:37:18   phones being that dsl dollars are so good now that they can extract a face [TS]

00:37:23   from the reflection in an object in the pic lee subject so you're taking a [TS]

00:37:29   picture you're behind the camera a reflection even my Newton anything [TS]

00:37:33   you're taking a picture of can be reconstructed to provide a decent facial [TS]

00:37:36   match against you and this is today right this is a couple years ago [TS]

00:37:40   actually [TS]

00:37:41   so when we have 20 megapixel or 50 mega pixel or photographic computational [TS]

00:37:45   photographic equipment and everything our iphones 17 cameras on them whatever [TS]

00:37:48   right so here's the picture here's the the snare you and this is where I think [TS]

00:37:52   we would agree on let's find out is that FBR long person says ah we know there [TS]

00:37:58   are several people in the vicinity of this event and they were taking pictures [TS]

00:38:02   we believe we can recover the face for a reflection of the actual criminal and [TS]

00:38:06   they subpoenaed the phones or they know they demand they want to use it as [TS]

00:38:09   evidence in my view I think that's totally legitimate now is now and could [TS]

00:38:15   these people be compelled under all writs Act provided maybe not maybe they [TS]

00:38:17   would say yesterday they seem so you know that request to want this photo [TS]

00:38:21   some people handing over those photos thinking they were legally obliged to to [TS]

00:38:24   aid in this that seems reasonable to me where the line will be crossed as if [TS]

00:38:28   like in this case they said oh we need to use the all writs act to break the [TS]

00:38:32   encryption because some of the witnesses refused to turn over their phones we [TS]

00:38:35   think there's a picture of the killer in that scene [TS]

00:38:38   what are you hi Terry it's you know that's exactly what a warrant is ID in [TS]

00:38:43   my opinion you know you can you ask for permission to search whatever a room [TS]

00:38:48   house [TS]

00:38:49   a filing cabinet digital device and what they can get off it they can get off it [TS]

00:38:57   but if all they get off it is a it strongly encrypted jumble of ones and [TS]

00:39:04   zeros that stuff [TS]

00:39:06   yeah maybe that's an eye on so that's that's the thing I miss the difference [TS]

00:39:10   of two parallel case you know where its but I think we're going to see I think [TS]

00:39:13   based on this we're going to see a lot more use the all writs act and I think [TS]

00:39:17   they're gonna be like that i think a lot of citizens or small companies or even [TS]

00:39:20   bigger companies are going to feel compelled to do it to obey and I think [TS]

00:39:24   the president said here will affect things like that will be you know what [TS]

00:39:27   it is i think there's going to be a massively increasing number of cases in [TS]

00:39:31   which people who are innocent bystandard standards will have evidence that we've [TS]

00:39:36   useful because of digital data collection audio or video images or [TS]

00:39:40   anything else but that's also a very different thing than compelling it [TS]

00:39:44   innocent bystanders to take action to say 22 for example say this you know we [TS]

00:39:51   have reason to believe that you know some sort of crime is going to be [TS]

00:39:56   committed in this area therefore we you know that an exam tell you this is [TS]

00:40:02   exactly the path that this sort of President can go down we want the right [TS]

00:40:06   to turn on the camera and recording of every every I file it you know in range [TS]

00:40:12   of this cell power put opticon OS right and only you know here we have we know [TS]

00:40:19   it we're not saying everywhere you know anywhere and everywhere saying right [TS]

00:40:22   here in the vicinity of yeah you know whatever street in whatever street in [TS]

00:40:26   whatever city but we have good reason for it and therefore we should you know [TS]

00:40:31   when we require the ability to do this [TS]

00:40:34   that is very much within the realm of what people would ask me look that's [TS]

00:40:37   already happy with cars we know that law enforcement wants to get information the [TS]

00:40:41   cars look I was talking two carmakers last year about you know [TS]

00:40:45   car robots self-driving cars and the deal is like this is the thing keep [TS]

00:40:50   going back to what we are seeing today is the tip of the iceberg of data [TS]

00:40:53   collection both us watching the watchmen watch for watching us [TS]

00:40:56   and it seems like it's already ridiculous right in the future our [TS]

00:41:00   clothing has been covered with cameras I mean I'm exaggerating but like [TS]

00:41:02   everything cars are going to festoon the one of the limitations there's a point [TS]

00:41:06   at which you can have too many cameras in a car you're collecting too much [TS]

00:41:10   information that point is not been hit yet i think if the end because of [TS]

00:41:13   computational photography where you can combine images for many cameras or [TS]

00:41:17   different kinds of imagery from cameras to obtain more information like you know [TS]

00:41:21   we talked about 3d cameras on cars are really 2d stereoscopic cameras or RGB [TS]

00:41:26   plus depth and use infrared or laser for arranging that kind of information you [TS]

00:41:31   can also obtain some cases if you have more cameras you don't need the ranging [TS]

00:41:34   part is all these things are going to happen so at some point our camera so [TS]

00:41:37   you can triangulate the three-dimensional aspect of it from the [TS]

00:41:40   two different angles [TS]

00:41:41   yeah they're seeing some really some really interesting paper so at some [TS]

00:41:44   point we're going to our phones are going to recording a hundred percent of [TS]

00:41:47   time we're going to be having wearable devices if they're watching would have [TS]

00:41:49   watched whatever they're constantly ready and on recording video and audio [TS]

00:41:52   unless we disable them and everything is going to constantly recording and [TS]

00:41:56   streaming terabytes of data that's actually processed to pull out [TS]

00:42:00   information so we are going into a future with what you're describing is [TS]

00:42:03   reality there could be a continuous 3d like coverage in any area of any minimal [TS]

00:42:09   population density between nest cam style things and our phones and watches [TS]

00:42:14   and cars so what if the government wants to compel that we like 10 minutes in an [TS]

00:42:18   hour [TS]

00:42:18   hit this button in every cameras record that for the next 10 minutes and they [TS]

00:42:22   get you know terabyte of information or petabyte for that I'm could skip over [TS]

00:42:28   and skipping around a little bit but i think it applies but one of the [TS]

00:42:30   highlights i have in Apple's me yesterday was from [TS]

00:42:36   talking about this colonial law CL EA yeah i was really fast and the [TS]

00:42:41   government is sort of arguing that Scalia doesn't apply to apple in this [TS]

00:42:46   case and apple is arguing yes exactly applies to us yes it's and one of them [TS]

00:42:55   here's the passage highlighted camellias legislative history makes clear the [TS]

00:42:59   sound policy reasons behind it specific limitations on when decription services [TS]

00:43:04   can be required during congressional hearings on Clea then FBI director louis [TS]

00:43:09   freeh assured senator I would lay that's Pat Leahy from Vermont that kalia would [TS]

00:43:16   not impede the growth of new technologies when Senator Leahy asked [TS]

00:43:20   whether Clea would inhibit the growth of encryption free responded quote this [TS]

00:43:26   legislation does not ask companies to decrypt it just tells them to give us [TS]

00:43:31   the bits as they have them if they are encrypted that is my problem which is [TS]

00:43:38   what i'm saying is that yes i think that the FBI should have the rights to get [TS]

00:43:41   the contents of this suspect phone but if the contents of the phone or [TS]

00:43:45   scrambled and and the FBI is technically incapable of you know decrypting them [TS]

00:43:50   that's their problem and I don't say that to be callous I you know in terms [TS]

00:43:55   of what if in some other hypothetical case the information would actually [TS]

00:43:59   prove useful to to getting a conviction of someone who actually did something or [TS]

00:44:03   what if it was it some sort of information on a phone that they can't [TS]

00:44:07   access would have information that could prevent something in the future I mean [TS]

00:44:10   those things will happen but it-it-it there is no perfect solution [TS]

00:44:15   oh yeah I wanted to supercuts circle back about this too is we talk about the [TS]

00:44:20   political spectrum it applies directly here too is that it's hilarious to see [TS]

00:44:23   people all the way from this on the spectrum from say anarchist to you know [TS]

00:44:27   right-wing fundamentalist who are all like its absolute limit Aryan I am I [TS]

00:44:33   love that aspect is that the cryptographers cryptographic community [TS]

00:44:36   has people across the larger political spectrum and i think almost who are [TS]

00:44:40   prominent in it let's say that almost any other field of endeavor i can [TS]

00:44:44   imagine so you've got whitfield diffie you've got moxie of [TS]

00:44:47   Martin's because Mike you've got David what's the face [TS]

00:44:52   Robert for a telegram from a rather security you got people across a huge [TS]

00:44:59   spectrum right and some people come from dictatorship based societies and escape [TS]

00:45:04   them some are living in societies are becoming repressive summer in [TS]

00:45:07   democracies are sensible democracies and they're all like yeah okay maybe there's [TS]

00:45:11   different reasons are you with some people may or may not be in favor of a [TS]

00:45:15   backdoor none of them to scream over what you're saying there is no way to [TS]

00:45:18   create that and so if you're an anarchist or you know Raging repairing [TS]

00:45:23   you got the same view like that [TS]

00:45:24   can I can't be done I really enjoyed keep them pondering over my head rich [TS]

00:45:29   moguls description of it that it's sort of a cover-your-ass mentality or [TS]

00:45:32   like--he's you're seeing his words are not on my watch but its cover cover your [TS]

00:45:36   own ass because that's one way since the only way to really make sense and it's [TS]

00:45:40   yeah it's very disappointing though because it's it the implications are so [TS]

00:45:44   severe I have a feeling I'm again I could be wrong and that's why it's it's [TS]

00:45:50   nervous watching this go down I have a feeling that Apple might do well in this [TS]

00:45:56   case I think Apple I think they should it's not just because I'm hoping and [TS]

00:45:59   that I my personal preferences that Apple wins this case i actually think [TS]

00:46:04   that on the facts and based on that the law feel like that they should win [TS]

00:46:09   well there's if they had it's so bizarre it's like I there's so many different [TS]

00:46:15   bases in this brief spells out a lot of them my what the FBI department justice [TS]

00:46:20   requesting is unprecedented or in this reading and you know I've been following [TS]

00:46:24   this close never read this brief and some others in depth this one of it very [TS]

00:46:27   much in depth because it's you know kind of the Crocs right now and because the [TS]

00:46:31   FBI went to sort of name calling doj is not saying things that are just kind of [TS]

00:46:34   it's like it feels like watching someone spin out of control you like looking [TS]

00:46:37   intervention here and Obama is not your inventions apparently he's like he's [TS]

00:46:41   like being your you're codependent enabler here [TS]

00:46:43   yeah but you read this you're like look at the all writs Act has never encompass [TS]

00:46:47   this and there's plenty of evidence like any other setting a species the clea the [TS]

00:46:51   legislative history previous whatever then you have like basically every [TS]

00:46:55   person who used to be an intelligence or law enforcement was at a high level who [TS]

00:46:59   is no longer in that office thing [TS]

00:47:01   yeah like what you've done with your office once supported call me because I [TS]

00:47:04   had to like what about now like no no I mean that the interviews with Richard [TS]

00:47:08   Clark yeah Michael Hayden with you and like parks NPR review is astonishing [TS]

00:47:14   he said he's like it's called the NSA we could they could do it right [TS]

00:47:17   well that that's interesting to me now number 1 i've found that post 9-11 [TS]

00:47:22   richard clark was fine one of the most thoughtful and a truly impressive [TS]

00:47:27   individuals it you know in the US government I green especially I've been [TS]

00:47:33   a huge fan of his [TS]

00:47:35   i I can't even think of a single point that I've ever really disagreed with him [TS]

00:47:38   on I get released and he's you know open my mind to all sorts of things that I [TS]

00:47:42   had never thought of like he's exactly the sort of person who I would want to [TS]

00:47:45   be that you know who he was and who I wish we had more of a national security [TS]

00:47:51   positions so when I say I my gut feeling would be that if the FBI gave this phone [TS]

00:48:00   to the NSA I bet the NSA could could crack this phone and knows something [TS]

00:48:05   about knows a way to get in but that's just based on you know me my hunch it as [TS]

00:48:10   to what I think the NSA can do pretty much completely uninformed but just sort [TS]

00:48:14   of you know it just seems to make sense when Richard Clark says is pretty sure [TS]

00:48:20   that if you gave this phone to the NSA they could get in [TS]

00:48:23   it's like go to the cashier and put your money on on that horse [TS]

00:48:28   oh yeah what yeah anything I think anything that Apple could do to their [TS]

00:48:31   own operating system the NSA could do plus the NSA can disassemble it to like [TS]

00:48:36   a sub molecular level right i mean they're not magicians right there you [TS]

00:48:40   know they have the best people who are not working in cryptography in public [TS]

00:48:44   and private enterprise is a private enterprise rather and in public sector [TS]

00:48:48   open jobs they're working at the NSA I mean this is the thing that you I don't [TS]

00:48:52   love how our government is using the NSA and the FBI to gather information I do [TS]

00:48:57   respect the people the FBI CIA NSA are some there's some people in there are [TS]

00:49:02   many many people based on some things here are some of the smartest people on [TS]

00:49:06   the planet and they're going there because they're told look do you want to [TS]

00:49:09   work with the most interesting thing you can never talk about it maybe like four [TS]

00:49:12   decades or ever right but you're going to work [TS]

00:49:14   with the most interesting cutting-edge technology ideas and hardware and theory [TS]

00:49:20   that no one else in the world work with your gonna go there there people go [TS]

00:49:24   there they may have moral qualms predator on it doesn't enter into it or [TS]

00:49:27   they support the missions but it is a it's kind of an interesting poll right [TS]

00:49:31   so I'm sure that this so i want to talk about employment issues just for a [TS]

00:49:37   second to because this comes back to this Apple brief so let's say Apple [TS]

00:49:41   losses and is compelled alright hold that hold that thought you know where [TS]

00:49:46   you're going and it's too long of a segment I want to do i would i'm gonna [TS]

00:49:49   hold my breath you're gonna let me just say this before i do the sponsor I just [TS]

00:49:52   want to go back . this is all these are two quotes that Apple pull that you [TS]

00:49:56   reference them both but this is in it people who have come out and it almost [TS]

00:50:00   to a surprising degree and i'm impressed at some of the people who have come out [TS]

00:50:05   in favor of encryption on this but one of them is former NSA and CIA director [TS]

00:50:11   Michael Hayden that's Michael hated his quote is Apple are Americans are [TS]

00:50:16   America's more secure America's more safe with unbreakable end and encryption [TS]

00:50:21   that's that's is let me can't get more clarinet and here's Defense Secretary [TS]

00:50:26   Ashton Carter so that's it [TS]

00:50:29   crossing the line over to the Department of Defense data security including [TS]

00:50:33   encryption is absolutely essential to us [TS]

00:50:36   I'm not a believer in back doors that into me that the angle there is that it [TS]

00:50:41   gets to that that the bridge mobile thing where y is the Department of [TS]

00:50:49   Justice doing this and it's it it doesn't make any sense from a national [TS]

00:50:54   security perspective and that I mean at point-blank is what the these other guys [TS]

00:50:57   are saying is that from a national security perspective back doors are [TS]

00:51:01   disaster and so an apple in their brief is saying that the government is saying [TS]

00:51:08   you can't take that into consideration and apple in their brief saying I don't [TS]

00:51:11   know about the legality of the argument of whether the court should take into [TS]

00:51:14   consideration but Apple is certainly emphasizing that angle [TS]

00:51:18   alright let's take a break and we'll talk about the employment issue [TS]

00:51:23   ok I am going to tell you about our good friends at igloo you guys know igloo we [TS]

00:51:30   all struggle with productivity we're constantly under pressure to accomplish [TS]

00:51:35   more and do it faster and there's no one definitive way to accomplish that when [TS]

00:51:40   you're on a small team or small company or or or something like that so we all [TS]

00:51:44   have our own methods to make things work and we combine you know this sort of [TS]

00:51:49   chat with this file sharing and other technologies igloo can help you and your [TS]

00:51:55   team keep doing things your way [TS]

00:51:58   only better collaboration should not be painful but the glue is pure and simple [TS]

00:52:03   is an intranet that you'll actually like they have all sorts of ways to customize [TS]

00:52:10   it and get just the features that you and your team need to fill in the gaps [TS]

00:52:14   in the system you already use but it's not like when you sign up for it blew [TS]

00:52:17   you have to suddenly drop everything you're already using and do things the [TS]

00:52:22   quote igloo way not like that at all [TS]

00:52:24   igloo is just a tool kit to let you and your team keep working the way that you [TS]

00:52:30   already do just better you can sign up free of charge [TS]

00:52:35   no credit card required at igloo software.com / t TS so just go there you [TS]

00:52:44   have a team and you're struggling in any way to collaborate just go to a blue [TS]

00:52:47   software com / tts sign up for free [TS]

00:52:50   check it out and see how good it could be so my thanks to glue all right let's [TS]

00:52:57   talk about the employment issue [TS]

00:52:58   yeah so we're talking twitter because I had this horrible [TS]

00:53:01   ok so this gets into like Orwell territory [TS]

00:53:04   yeah at all levels like okay Snow Crash have you ever read Neal Stephenson's [TS]

00:53:08   Snow Crash embarrassed to say no at as a programmer you would love it and it's [TS]

00:53:13   all about hacking the brain but one of the themes in it without getting [TS]

00:53:16   spoilers to like a 20 year old book is this notion that a company wanted to [TS]

00:53:21   retain the ownership of programming code in their programmers mind so when they [TS]

00:53:24   left they couldn't use it elsewhere minutes i'm paraphrasing [TS]

00:53:29   had this thought I Rinus Appaloosas this case the court says you compels them to [TS]

00:53:34   write what they're calling you know God GOG government govt TOS i'm picturing [TS]

00:53:39   this meeting tim cook in a room with like 200 people and it's everybody at [TS]

00:53:45   Apple capable of working on the sizes all right you know what's happened [TS]

00:53:49   the order has been given we are going to but we always know we're gonna try to [TS]

00:53:52   appeal it but right now we have been able to stay we need you to do this and [TS]

00:53:57   we can't order anyone to do it we can we've been ordered [TS]

00:54:00   but you were all individuals and this needs to happen like what what are those [TS]

00:54:03   people do one of those people do and what does the court do if all 200 of [TS]

00:54:08   them suddenly quit and what is Tim do for those people if they suddenly quit I [TS]

00:54:13   mean I just thinking you can't you can order Apple to do something but [TS]

00:54:17   employees are at well none of the executives can do this they need [TS]

00:54:21   specific employees in the engineering level what what happens i also wonder [TS]

00:54:27   just how many engineers at Apple would be capable of doing this now capable you [TS]

00:54:35   can obviously hire somebody new and it provides them with the source code and [TS]

00:54:39   let them study it and study the way the entire system works long enough and [TS]

00:54:44   somebody who's obviously not even employed by apple today could eventually [TS]

00:54:47   become capable of doing it so it's you know it i'm not saying it's impossible [TS]

00:54:53   but I wonder how many people within Apple would be on the team that would be [TS]

00:54:58   commissioned to undertake this I don't know that it's 200 i think it's probably [TS]

00:55:04   a significantly lower number of people who work in the area of system-level [TS]

00:55:09   device security so is it Daniel gelcoat used to work at a pond years ago he [TS]

00:55:14   apple i think it's he say something response this was like he said there [TS]

00:55:17   might be a hundred people in the world maybe I'm exaggerating number something [TS]

00:55:20   nice to look small but it was is right it's not that other people could get [TS]

00:55:25   something other people can't get up to speed but in order to the then they have [TS]

00:55:30   to hire other people and it's not even issue of morals like I have to wonder [TS]

00:55:34   what is your career like inside Apple if you're the gallery guy who says she's [TS]

00:55:38   not sure whatever the government wants like you do the government OS [TS]

00:55:43   and it's delivered missed him say thanks for helping us obey the court order and [TS]

00:55:47   you have no future with us could you be fired for complete for being a good [TS]

00:55:51   employee could you put on in Siberia and sent to an Alaskan out posted Apple to [TS]

00:55:57   work on projects there i don't know it's it it's easy to outside you know Ted [TS]

00:56:05   just abstracted somebody with an apple can do it apple has got a lot of money [TS]

00:56:08   in the last smart people they can do it but at some level it come it will if it [TS]

00:56:12   ever if this came to pass it would come down to individuals and I think they [TS]

00:56:17   have to make a decision and dance for security purposes it would be better to [TS]

00:56:20   have it be as few people as possible [TS]

00:56:23   I've often thought about this i wonder what Apple's security policies are for [TS]

00:56:28   hiring people to work on stuff like this like how do you think about I mean how [TS]

00:56:33   do they make sure that a secret agent for you know [TS]

00:56:38   china isn't isn't applying to be an engineer on iOS who would place a [TS]

00:56:44   backdoor I mean it and it sounds like it start thinking it sounds like something [TS]

00:56:49   out of a you know james bond movie or something like that but stuff like that [TS]

00:56:51   has happened right there have been back doors placed in remember the openssl 10 [TS]

00:57:00   yeah heartbleed well Hartley was up there edge so many and I you know I [TS]

00:57:04   don't even want to blame China i think that there's a strong suspicion that it [TS]

00:57:08   was the US government who served is asleep laced a back door in and like an [TS]

00:57:13   ssl library that was you know we understand there's some purposely what [TS]

00:57:17   seems he purposely we can encryption that is t seem to have some interaction [TS]

00:57:22   within the VPN software libraries [TS]

00:57:26   no it's not implausible I mean this is a thing like what really drives the world [TS]

00:57:30   is not spy craft in terms of state-run espionage it some industrial espionage [TS]

00:57:35   is a huge thing it's huge happens continuously this is not like a movie [TS]

00:57:39   thing it's there are people working inside companies constantly selling [TS]

00:57:43   secrets to competitors and what do you think we need for them [TS]

00:57:46   what do you do when somebody a very talented programmer [TS]

00:57:50   yeah with a security background who without lying about their employee [TS]

00:57:56   history at all but has spent you know like eight years working for the NSA [TS]

00:57:59   applies to work on that security had a few laughs but if they're not if they're [TS]

00:58:06   being honest it could be a tremendous higher and we did I tell you the story [TS]

00:58:10   ready i once met guys from the CIA print shop and they said we gave the business [TS]

00:58:13   cards and they said we have business cards we can't give them to you [TS]

00:58:16   we should you're serious they said yeah we kinda outside the building so like [TS]

00:58:20   how do you get a reference from the NSA for your job at apple do I don't know [TS]

00:58:25   but you know but what you know it i it must occur to them you know and it's not [TS]

00:58:32   anyway that's we're getting off the point of what happens if everybody who [TS]

00:58:35   works at apple refuses to do this and and I or even isn't this a majority like [TS]

00:58:40   you need I mean I said 200 probably because it's like project managers and [TS]

00:58:43   like those people who have the expertise and there's the people who support those [TS]

00:58:46   people and people i mean who has the key who has the codes that give them access [TS]

00:58:51   to like the root certificates that are used all this stuff involves a very [TS]

00:58:56   small number of people but what if they all I mean look at you and I were that [TS]

00:59:00   position I think we know we do we quit right quick and then can the government [TS]

00:59:04   compelling could the government courts say you're not allowed to quit right I I [TS]

00:59:08   can't imagine but could that I don't know the legality and it's even easier [TS]

00:59:12   in today's the current job market in in Silicon Valley know it is you know it's [TS]

00:59:19   like I'm being I just want to be out all day that I'm not even trying to say that [TS]

00:59:23   it's an act of nobility it would be I would like to think and and and i would [TS]

00:59:28   like to think that I would act on principle but if you just want to get [TS]

00:59:32   down to the cold hard facts of well you know you've got a mortgage to pay and [TS]

00:59:37   kids to put through college or whatever it's like somebody who has extensive [TS]

00:59:40   experience on Apple's security team is not going to have a hard time getting [TS]

00:59:44   another job now absolutely not right they probably get like $MONEY [TS]

00:59:47   million-dollar bonuses that are still being handled handed out when they go to [TS]

00:59:49   work for one of the unicorn right and it might break the heart because maybe they [TS]

00:59:52   prefer to work at Apple but we know rather do good work for Google than do [TS]

00:59:56   destructive work for apple i mean it's it's it it to me [TS]

00:59:56   destructive work for apple i mean it's it's it it to me [TS]

01:00:00   is not an Outland just said scenario at all and i do think i do think i think [TS]

01:00:06   that people who work in encryption it's like you said that it spans the [TS]

01:00:09   political game and that's one of the things that I really like about this is [TS]

01:00:12   that in in what I you know in my sideline as a amateur art Twitter [TS]

01:00:17   political columnist I one of the things that depresses me about the current [TS]

01:00:23   state of decades long discourse in the United States is the polarization of of [TS]

01:00:28   politics and that so many issues are so clearly polarized and that we've we've [TS]

01:00:33   self sorted on these various lines into the two parties and that there's no [TS]

01:00:40   interchange between III it does my heart it warms my heart that on this [TS]

01:00:45   particular issue it that it doesn't fall on on one line or the other and if [TS]

01:00:51   anything because the DOJ is part of the executive branch you have I would have [TS]

01:00:56   to say that you know the Democrats have more responsibility in this case with [TS]

01:01:00   Apple than the Republicans I mean there certainly are Republicans who I've seen [TS]

01:01:04   call for apple should just open the iphone [TS]

01:01:07   oh yeah but you so I'm sure you watch the John Oliver so I guess on with yet [TS]

01:01:11   brilliant the Lindsey Graham thing i didn't realize Lindsey Graham had [TS]

01:01:14   recanted his position to watch Lindsey Graham say up I was wrong [TS]

01:01:17   I've been better informed now you're like coming to Jesus moment he can be [TS]

01:01:21   convinced then [TS]

01:01:23   wow I mean I know he's got the easy side also of you know they want to support [TS]

01:01:27   law and order which is a basic fundamental GOP stance but he also can [TS]

01:01:32   be opposing the event Obama administration by doing so even with [TS]

01:01:35   that I I was just like oh my god well they they gotta explain it to him and he [TS]

01:01:40   accepted the logical was explained right i think Darrell is a who I generally [TS]

01:01:45   disagree with oh god I was a sweet i retweeted him today on the CC he's so [TS]

01:01:50   right in some places and he's he understand to a certain degree i mean i [TS]

01:01:54   know he had a background in technology before you got into politics but at [TS]

01:01:57   least at the layman's understanding that you would hope that our legislators [TS]

01:02:02   would have he's got it he is sweet [TS]

01:02:05   he's been really good I here's an interesting just a side note get back to [TS]

01:02:11   1776 this is a musical podcast now [TS]

01:02:13   that's the bit so imagine you're the engineer at apple or set of Engineers [TS]

01:02:17   and you're the people who write the code that's been compelled by the government [TS]

01:02:21   to essentially the tray humanity [TS]

01:02:24   I mean comes tablets that I'm not even exaggerating the case in 1776 musical it [TS]

01:02:28   draws on there no apparent records that just around came from the Continental [TS]

01:02:33   Congress because they were worried about being intercepted all kinds of stuff [TS]

01:02:36   there's 1776 a re-creation from later remembrances of people and other sources [TS]

01:02:41   there's a judge judge Wilson is from the Pennsylvania delegation so it's you got [TS]

01:02:46   dickinson one side as opposed to waiting for dependency of franklin on the other [TS]

01:02:49   is for it [TS]

01:02:50   this is a key vote Wilson who had supported dickinson I sort of moderation [TS]

01:02:55   changes essentially last-minute declares himself its dramatic moment in the [TS]

01:03:00   musical but it's also essentially what happened in reality here's the thing he [TS]

01:03:04   didn't want to be this is the motivation given to him he didn't want to be the [TS]

01:03:07   person who killed Liberty he wanted to be kind of you know under-the-radar and [TS]

01:03:12   it's like everyone remember judge Wilson as the person who killed American [TS]

01:03:17   liberty you know and you think about that the programmers you like maybe 20 [TS]

01:03:21   people or 15 people on the team that do it and you're the people who killed [TS]

01:03:24   encryption for everybody [TS]

01:03:27   how do you do that that's a traumatic thing you'll be put through if you have [TS]

01:03:30   that kind of conscience right there's a personal security angle here and apple [TS]

01:03:36   has mentioned this in there i think in a brief but if not a brief certainly in [TS]

01:03:41   the one of the supplements you know there's the testimony from craig [TS]

01:03:46   federighi and and yeah [TS]

01:03:48   I forget the guys name that has got big long name that starts with an n sorry [TS]

01:03:54   it's a Eric annoying fonder right now [TS]

01:04:00   yeah that's interminably it's a big long-term Germanic name and and but part [TS]

01:04:06   of it is that there's a personal security angle to this where right now [TS]

01:04:11   nobody knows how to create as Apple calls it government OS version of OS [TS]

01:04:17   that you can install on top of an existing iphone without destroying it [TS]

01:04:21   some crazed and then bypass the the protections against the touchpad which [TS]

01:04:28   once you get rid of those protections it's easy [TS]

01:04:31   Amy and and it obviously using a long alphanumeric password or passphrase i [TS]

01:04:38   guess i should say would actually you know would significantly help increase [TS]

01:04:42   the security of your phone but even the six digit passcode it would take longer [TS]

01:04:48   to brute force but once you bypass the protections you know you're talking [TS]

01:04:52   about like days or weeks not [TS]

01:04:55   yeah you know years it there are jailbreaks for the phone zero-day you [TS]

01:05:03   know what are the zero-day exploits there hit that have been sold on the [TS]

01:05:06   open market and if there's one that sold for like over a million dollars last [TS]

01:05:10   year like a way to you know that good at security form put out like a bounty and [TS]

01:05:16   said if you can get us into you know a jailbreaker on an iphone that under the [TS]

01:05:24   following conditions like let's say like just by sending the text message or just [TS]

01:05:28   by opening this URL in safari sold for like a million dollars [TS]

01:05:34   can you imagine what the black market value of government OS would be it again [TS]

01:05:41   it's not just sounds like we're talking about cloak-and-dagger you know James [TS]

01:05:44   Bond Jason Bourne movie stuff but it's not it's real right did but imagine if [TS]

01:05:51   the identities of the engineers at Apple who knew how to make it and knew how to [TS]

01:05:56   you know knew the details of it [TS]

01:06:00   it would put them in some measure of personal risk it really i mean i think [TS]

01:06:05   this right now they must be to imagine if you have some rest secrets i'm sure [TS]

01:06:09   those people already Apple security must already have eyes on them both from the [TS]

01:06:14   perspective and the dangerous side like are these people going off to do stuff [TS]

01:06:18   you probably watched but also someone trying to kidnap imagine if your [TS]

01:06:21   family's kidnapping you know how to do whatever it's kind of why it you're like [TS]

01:06:25   yeah here's the key [TS]

01:06:26   I mean and that's just now before government os's is built right [TS]

01:06:30   Apple has made the analogy and I think this you know this comes to you know the [TS]

01:06:37   way that the bill of rights to meet you know protects it acts of your conscience [TS]

01:06:43   you know I mean that's a big part of what the First Amendment is about Apple [TS]

01:06:51   has made the analogy to like a bit what it could have pharmaceutical company be [TS]

01:06:56   forced to produce the serum for a lethal injection which is a real word world [TS]

01:07:01   political problem right now we have that is not a political either right where [TS]

01:07:05   the the states in the united states that still have the death penalty because [TS]

01:07:11   it's been banned in the rest of the civilized world and is only you know [TS]

01:07:18   it's really only practiced in the first world in the United States and only then [TS]

01:07:21   in certain states the company you know whatever they used to use to to give [TS]

01:07:26   people the lethal injection there's no more of the serum you're not getting [TS]

01:07:30   really know you want me really uncomfortable about their BuzzFeed has [TS]

01:07:34   had some really amazing coverage about this people selling drugs from india and [TS]

01:07:39   so forth fascinating and the state's refusing to disclose information that [TS]

01:07:43   they should be about whether obtaining the drugs from right all right I will [TS]

01:07:46   look that up BuzzFeed's really cool injections right because can you can-can [TS]

01:07:52   estate get you know this is getting off into the weeds on on the death penalty [TS]

01:07:56   but can estate use a substance to put a prisoner to death isn't like [TS]

01:08:02   fda-approved and why wouldn't you know it gets out of the question of wine [TS]

01:08:05   world with the FDA approved a substance that there [TS]

01:08:08   that kills people but well so so good but apples question stands could the all [TS]

01:08:13   writs Act be used for if the kid the government say okay we don't have [TS]

01:08:18   anymore this stuff let's go to let's go to Pfizer and compel pfizer to come up [TS]

01:08:24   with a serum that would have the following quote qualities you know that [TS]

01:08:29   it's you know painless and put you to death [TS]

01:08:33   yeah what this is a think one of the great arguments i think it's very [TS]

01:08:36   directly related to what you're talking about here is Apple trying to show what [TS]

01:08:41   i think is they'd like to say settled law that code is speech and other people [TS]

01:08:46   maybe less secure in that I think it's pretty settled i think the Supreme Court [TS]

01:08:49   has really made that clear and the FBI and DOJ would like to say that code is [TS]

01:08:54   not speech when it's functional code there's a thing where apples are pretty [TS]

01:08:57   killing the FBI sprays right in the brief there's no such thing as [TS]

01:09:00   functional code all code is the same thing so you cannot can split that it's [TS]

01:09:04   unconstitutional to compelled speech that is practically i am pretty sure [TS]

01:09:10   that is an overriding principle i'm not a constitutional lawyer i'm not sure but [TS]

01:09:13   I'm pretty sure I keep reading what you cannot compel speech no court can compel [TS]

01:09:16   speech it can compel you to testify or it can paralyze you for not testifying [TS]

01:09:21   for not providing information but you cannot compel someone to speech and you [TS]

01:09:25   cannot compel a programmer to program few of the wise twitter twitter mirrors [TS]

01:09:29   were saying women it if corporations are people can you compel corporations to [TS]

01:09:34   speech given that they are now we know under citizens united and other girl [TS]

01:09:37   thinks should have essentially the same right so can you compel Apple to speech [TS]

01:09:42   of that involves code even that's the thing about this brief is Apple's [TS]

01:09:45   hacking away at many many many different uh no trees with poison fruit and I [TS]

01:09:50   think the code of speech was very compelling even if the all writs one [TS]

01:09:53   which is also compelling falls down [TS]

01:09:56   yes i agree on both of those parts that to me that's that's the main thrust of [TS]

01:10:00   apples twofold argument is that they can't be compelled to do this because [TS]

01:10:06   it's speech and it's deeply offensive to to apple and the employees who would be [TS]

01:10:10   you know subject to carry it out and that the all writs Act cannot be used to [TS]

01:10:16   compel extraordinary action [TS]

01:10:18   and to me that's when you read the government thing and if you almost feel [TS]

01:10:21   bad for the lawyers who wrote the government's brief because it's I don't [TS]

01:10:26   think it was their decision to it's not like James Comey had to write the brief [TS]

01:10:29   it's not like Loretta Lynch the Attorney General wrote the brief it's like it got [TS]

01:10:34   assigned to these you know the two lawyers who wrote it and I almost feel [TS]

01:10:39   bad for them because i feel like it's like when you're you know that's what [TS]

01:10:42   it's like to be a lawyer you don't necessarily don't get to pick the side [TS]

01:10:45   you know I mean like like they might know there they might well know that [TS]

01:10:49   their arguments stands on nothing but thin air but they still gotta write the [TS]

01:10:53   brief there left arguing at the the government is left trying to argue [TS]

01:10:58   because they know that they all writs Act is supposed to fill in the gaps of [TS]

01:11:03   statutory law so they left trying to argue that the use of the already [TS]

01:11:08   attacked here isn't compelling Apple to do something extraordinary but it's it's [TS]

01:11:13   really really hard to do that you know and and adjust of it is that the alright [TS]

01:11:17   I've you know for people who are you know aren't paying attention that all [TS]

01:11:21   rataxes supposed to fill in the gaps that isn't covered by existing law so if [TS]

01:11:26   there's a law that says this and law that says that but there's a minor issue [TS]

01:11:29   that's in between there the all writs Act fills it in and I think one of the [TS]

01:11:33   examples the government gave is that somebody can be compelled to give [TS]

01:11:38   testimony in court like you said mom what if their testimony will take three [TS]

01:11:44   days [TS]

01:11:45   what where do they go right and so maybe there's no law that says that the all [TS]

01:11:49   writs Act would fill it in and that the government can just do what's reasonable [TS]

01:11:52   and put the guy up in a hotel you know the government will put you up in a [TS]

01:11:55   hotel for three days so you still have to testify for the full three days but [TS]

01:11:59   even if there's no law that says that when a you know that says when a witness [TS]

01:12:03   has to testify for more than one day the government will put them up in a hotel [TS]

01:12:06   it's just that the all writs Act can fill in and and fill in the gap in the [TS]

01:12:10   situation like that Apple's argument and I think it's extremely compelling is [TS]

01:12:16   that it if the government wants to compel a company to do what they're [TS]

01:12:20   saying they want Apple to do it has to be passed through legislation you have [TS]

01:12:24   to pass a law that says yes [TS]

01:12:26   in this case you would have to do this [TS]

01:12:28   because otherwise you're at you know it because it's an extraordinary thing any [TS]

01:12:33   other analogies I thought about and I want to see what you think about this [TS]

01:12:37   but so for example famously I think it's the sixties i might be getting the time [TS]

01:12:42   wrong but when ralph nader wrote the what was the book unsafe at any speed [TS]

01:12:49   yeah about the horrible state of a car crash safety at you know that and wanted [TS]

01:12:59   to legislate that in order to get car companies to mandate that they put seat [TS]

01:13:04   belts in cars and the car industry pushed back against mandatory seatbelts [TS]

01:13:10   under the argument that putting seat belts in cars made cars look unsafe that [TS]

01:13:17   if you got up right now this is true i'm making the river god [TS]

01:13:21   alright so they said no we don't know this is not a good idea because it you [TS]

01:13:25   know people love driving cars and they feel safe and happy driving cars but if [TS]

01:13:29   you go in there and there's the safety harnesses you know safety belts it's [TS]

01:13:33   going to make people think that they're dangerous [TS]

01:13:36   that's not it it sounds silly in hindsight and we have now have a lot of [TS]

01:13:41   statistics that backup that it's you know obviously hasn't stopped Americans [TS]

01:13:45   from driving and we have statistics to prove that they're you know that safety [TS]

01:13:48   advances that have been mandated have been tremendous Boone's to to public [TS]

01:13:51   safety but it's not a ridiculous argument it's not ridiculous that that [TS]

01:13:56   that the logic of the car manufacturers it it was probably wrong but that didn't [TS]

01:14:02   it it didn't happen through the all writs Act it happened throughout you [TS]

01:14:06   know real legislation passed through Congress that man ended things like this [TS]

01:14:11   and that's the way it should be and the other now Jack and think of this isn't [TS]

01:14:15   national it's all gone [TS]

01:14:17   local like state by state and city by city but one of the great things of of [TS]

01:14:23   my lifetime as someone who really really has always been bothered by cigarette [TS]

01:14:27   smoke is the passing of laws that that get cigarettes out of bars and [TS]

01:14:33   restaurants and our workplaces and stuff like that [TS]

01:14:35   now it was a common common and rip oft-repeated refrain [TS]

01:14:40   especially from bar owners that if you made smoking illegal and bars it would [TS]

01:14:44   draw it with business would dry up because people who smoked would go to [TS]

01:14:48   private establishments instead of public ones because they're not going to stop [TS]

01:14:52   smoking while they drink and there it did common sense that says that that [TS]

01:14:58   argument might hold water right it might there's there's some logic to that I and [TS]

01:15:04   again that it this wasn't done through the all writs Act it was you have to [TS]

01:15:09   pass an actual law and fight and make that argument and listen to the people [TS]

01:15:14   the bar owners arguing and now I picked both of those examples the seatbelt [TS]

01:15:18   mandatory seatbelts and the the getting cigarettes out of bars and restaurants i [TS]

01:15:23   pick those specifically because i know that those arguments are on the wrong [TS]

01:15:27   side right that it's it is my opinion it's correct that seat belts and and you [TS]

01:15:34   know other safety devices and chrono stay very high standards for craft [TS]

01:15:39   survivability are good idea and that I think it's a very good idea for public [TS]

01:15:43   health that cigarettes are are not our band most restaurants and bars now but I [TS]

01:15:49   still think that it was right that they had to pass legislation to do it so in [TS]

01:15:55   this case to me with Apple being on the right side it's even more important that [TS]

01:15:58   if you want to force them to do this terrible thing that you have to fight it [TS]

01:16:02   out in the legislature yeah I think you're absolutely right those are great [TS]

01:16:07   examples and we can also get to like gun control is part of this issue too is [TS]

01:16:12   like what can be done under regulations existing regulations in force and what [TS]

01:16:17   requires lost we passed and whatever side you are about the you know how many [TS]

01:16:22   guns should be out there going to be out there all in private hands whatever the [TS]

01:16:25   side you are i think i would argue i would rather have a legislative solution [TS]

01:16:28   than a regulatory one even regulatory one might be better [TS]

01:16:33   whether that's for allowing broader gun ownership or narrower ownership because [TS]

01:16:37   without the legislative solution an executive make a decision it doesn't [TS]

01:16:41   lack that consensus so we have the same situation here is like do you want the [TS]

01:16:45   government to use a 240 something year old law with [TS]

01:16:50   extranged logic to upset the future of privacy education protection when the [TS]

01:16:57   clea more recently addressed it or didn't address it in specific ways or do [TS]

01:17:01   you want legislators you know regardless again of who which political parties in [TS]

01:17:05   charge is not actually a political issue in that sense it's a political issue of [TS]

01:17:09   how this would be addressed in a comprehensive way through a process that [TS]

01:17:13   has various you know the three branches of government in the checks and balances [TS]

01:17:17   I don't really want an executive agency to push through something like this and [TS]

01:17:21   you know I despite having a minute i voted for obama gets twice and but i [TS]

01:17:25   don't really like the extensive use of presidential orders executive orders and [TS]

01:17:29   regulatory moves that he's using I understand why he's doing it [TS]

01:17:33   I don't think there is long-lasting and I don't think they're I mean I know [TS]

01:17:36   where the middle intransigence and you had with gridlock you have to try things [TS]

01:17:40   and it's so forth so I understand whether being done but they wanted the [TS]

01:17:43   lasting effect they want they don't indicate a change of policy where [TS]

01:17:46   something like the Affordable Care Act they were able to actually get that [TS]

01:17:49   passed it became law and you see how implacable it is to resistance and look [TS]

01:17:54   at the supreme court chief justice voting in favor surprising everyone in [TS]

01:18:00   favor of ACA under the Commerce Clause and you know all these decisions that [TS]

01:18:04   have come through where the AC I had a cas had some the you know fall back [TS]

01:18:08   mostly been upheld because it was law as opposed to regulatory interpretation or [TS]

01:18:16   strain regulatory interpretation presidential order so and a lot of [TS]

01:18:19   presidential orders recently have been thrown down by the courts at various [TS]

01:18:22   levels and and well in some have not been upheld so far I'm you went to gun [TS]

01:18:26   so i'll i'll go too high no cons like it was very but I think you did I thought I [TS]

01:18:30   hopefully I think we've done so in a way that is amenable to anybody on either [TS]

01:18:34   side issue i'm gonna go to abortion and ruth bader ginsburg Ruth Bader guess the [TS]

01:18:39   game we're playing guns abortion all writs Act Ruth Bader Ginsburg has argued [TS]

01:18:45   and I think surprising many people long argued and from before she was on the [TS]

01:18:50   Supreme Court I think it was a paper she wrote that kind of got her to the [TS]

01:18:53   supreme court ruling that this right that that roe v wade was actually a [TS]

01:18:58   setback [TS]

01:19:00   in the long run for abortion rights because it was a sweeping change by the [TS]

01:19:06   Supreme Court and rather than letting it work its way through the legislative [TS]

01:19:12   branch which would have given it a lot more that things work out better and are [TS]

01:19:18   more broadly accepted when they go through the legislature then when the [TS]

01:19:23   judiciary passes takes takes matters into its own hands and again not I don't [TS]

01:19:29   even want to just don't even want to touch on this side of which way it [TS]

01:19:32   should go in a pretty clear my my views on it or no but it doesn't matter though [TS]

01:19:38   I think that the basic argument though that if that roe v wade has remained [TS]

01:19:42   controversial in a way that a legislative solution which the US was [TS]

01:19:46   probably heading to at the time in the seventies would have had more staying [TS]

01:19:51   power [TS]

01:19:52   it's almost remarkable to the extent that roe v wade is remains so [TS]

01:19:56   radioactively controversial 40-some years later 40-44 years later that a [TS]

01:20:06   forty-four-year-old supreme court decision is is still considered [TS]

01:20:09   contentious is it you know shows the the logic of of Ginsburg art Ginsburg's [TS]

01:20:16   argument I I have to agree with that too is right it does not matter what your [TS]

01:20:20   stance on abortion a legislative decision that was made and carried out [TS]

01:20:24   at a national level and then enforced and refined by Supreme Court rulings [TS]

01:20:29   that narrow door or broaden and on more limited grounds people would be arguing [TS]

01:20:33   about it in it in a different way because they would have felt like the [TS]

01:20:37   price you know they would be looking to overturn the law as opposed to trying to [TS]

01:20:41   figure out how to change a constitutional president right and maybe [TS]

01:20:44   ultimately would become enshrined as a constitutional president you would have [TS]

01:20:46   had you know a row law and the law having passed I think in the seventies I [TS]

01:20:52   think the GOP and Democratic Party the time I think we easily have passed a law [TS]

01:20:57   that i think i actually think it would have not been [TS]

01:21:02   that difficult to produce consensus then so let's say that happens you gotta roll [TS]

01:21:07   law and then some row based decisions later that refined it that you know [TS]

01:21:12   people would still be debating but we still be active but that wouldn't be [TS]

01:21:14   this notion that it could be a just a small tweak in the composition the court [TS]

01:21:18   would change this for everyone because you would have to get the law of return [TS]

01:21:22   or you'd have to have a radically different Supreme Court interpretation [TS]

01:21:25   and that's an ongoing issue in accordance with the critiques of Scalia [TS]

01:21:28   as an original list is that he wasn't as an original list he didn't care about [TS]

01:21:33   President as much as pristine courts did and you can see the liberal and some [TS]

01:21:37   conservative justices going off on rejecting on the fact that decisions [TS]

01:21:42   overturned sometimes relatively recent presidents which is not historically the [TS]

01:21:48   case it's usually long periods of time before presidents are returned by one go [TS]

01:21:51   from one court to another right so yeah I think you're I mean it's so in this [TS]

01:21:55   case let's say it's AI think Congress addressing it [TS]

01:21:58   and interestingly giving Congress has approached this I wouldn't be surprised [TS]

01:22:01   if Congress could reach consensus maybe not this one but the next one about the [TS]

01:22:06   direction it should take that would not be as Extreme as the administration's [TS]

01:22:10   position and would not require this level of action if it did then you might [TS]

01:22:15   have a constitutional issue if they try to enshrine with the FBI is trying to as [TS]

01:22:20   regulatory action [TS]

01:22:22   the big difference here like we just mentioned a few minutes ago though is [TS]

01:22:25   that on abortion it's clearly polarized between the two parties admit of the [TS]

01:22:31   rovi wait only exacerbated that this issue this issue of encryption it [TS]

01:22:36   splendidly so is crosses the political spectrum and I almost wonder whether if [TS]

01:22:42   if the DOJ wins this case against apple [TS]

01:22:46   whether that actually polarizes Congress to pass a law to enshrine the right to [TS]

01:22:58   strong encryption not be interesting left-to-right could join hands around [TS]

01:23:02   the side that's that's always a good that it might but it might be the like [TS]

01:23:06   losing in court might inspire Congress to do that in a way that not having [TS]

01:23:12   picked this fight at all the FBI might have been better off you know from their [TS]

01:23:16   desire wrong had a desire to to to keep these devices as accessible as possible [TS]

01:23:21   because the other thing to the thing that's cross-platform the other thing [TS]

01:23:25   that is definitely cross-platform and it's just common sense but it's easy to [TS]

01:23:28   overlook is that that branches of government that are three branches of [TS]

01:23:36   government you don't take well to the interpretation of their powers by [TS]

01:23:42   another branch so like you said but a president obama has taken and bush did [TS]

01:23:49   too but both of them in the face of opposition in Congress have taken two [TS]

01:23:54   executive orders and Congress whatever the order is regardless of it does not [TS]

01:24:00   take poorly does not take well to that and i think that when when the [TS]

01:24:05   legislature when the when the judicial branch when a judge passes dar makes in [TS]

01:24:10   order that Congress sees as that should be something that we decide it doesn't [TS]

01:24:16   matter what the issue is it it just stiffened their spine is a bristle and I [TS]

01:24:20   think rightly so that's sort of the way the system is designed to work [TS]

01:24:24   yeah and yeah it's true I think I mean we can take this to from the legislature [TS]

01:24:28   to the people right we keep bringing these things [TS]

01:24:30   polls show that you know the support for apple the FBI evenly split and like all [TS]

01:24:34   right let's see what questions you ask the questions are too big i would like [TS]

01:24:38   to see this question asked in a like a be testing so one case you say should [TS]

01:24:41   Apple give the FBI the contents of the phone or whatever the questions are the [TS]

01:24:45   task yes now and our the phrase right [TS]

01:24:47   the other is should the FBI be allowed with legal warrant from a judge to [TS]

01:24:52   access your phone anytime they deem there's a legal necessity for and [TS]

01:24:58   obtain all the contents absolutely in plain text you want some more of that I [TS]

01:25:03   think you get a different response if he said he said you know should judge allow [TS]

01:25:07   the FBI to examine the contents your phone anytime [TS]

01:25:10   well and I got any time but for it goodnight criminal action with a warrant [TS]

01:25:15   it's really hard to pull too because it's because it's easy for a lay person [TS]

01:25:21   to believe in the magic solution of a way for the F for the government to get [TS]

01:25:26   in but nobody else that only the government you know which you kind of [TS]

01:25:31   have to be to gently informed of the basic way that encryption works to [TS]

01:25:38   understand just how do you know how dangerous and an impossible it is to say [TS]

01:25:42   the only people who can get in our the US federal government with the warrant [TS]

01:25:47   it just doesn't work that way once you create you know once you create a [TS]

01:25:50   backdoor I know it's right so there's like you can actually ask any basically [TS]

01:25:55   we're seeing is for this poll we need to get 10,000 people we can give a two-day [TS]

01:25:59   class on cryptography and operating systems too and after that we're going [TS]

01:26:02   to ask you a few questions like yeah yeah and what if what if you just [TS]

01:26:06   proceed the question with remember like 20 minutes ago 30 minutes ago when i [TS]

01:26:10   read the two quotes from that the the Department of Defense the what he called [TS]

01:26:18   the who's in charge of the department offense the Secretary of Defense US [TS]

01:26:24   Secretary sarcastic and the former head of the NSA and CIA and just read those [TS]

01:26:29   two shorts clear statements and then say do you think Apple should be forced to [TS]

01:26:34   comply with this and then see if the poll results change and it's almost [TS]

01:26:36   certain it would change to some degree weather it would change dramatically or [TS]

01:26:40   mildly but it would have to have some effect so you know I I don't go that is [TS]

01:26:45   why we don't have this is you know it's exactly why we don't just vote on [TS]

01:26:49   everything you know california-style just have voter initiatives on all this [TS]

01:26:52   stuff that's why we have a representative democracy now and that's [TS]

01:26:56   I mean this is the problem sometimes are often with jury trials right we've seen [TS]

01:27:00   this with civil trial specifically but you have with criminal to is like how do [TS]

01:27:03   you get average people who who should be able to solve I mean in many kinds of [TS]

01:27:08   cases of criminality or [TS]

01:27:10   civil liability on ordinary people with reasonable intelligence should be able [TS]

01:27:14   to spend a few days in a courtroom learn enough to be able to make an [TS]

01:27:18   adjudication that's that's ostensibly fair or reasonable right right with the [TS]

01:27:22   judge overseeing it but how do you do that with encryption how do you do that [TS]

01:27:25   with most these technical topics or user interface design like you can't and [TS]

01:27:29   every outcome is going to be arbitrary when placed in front of a jury [TS]

01:27:32   it's anything with poles to poles are a reflection of how a jury would probably [TS]

01:27:36   deal with it which would be you know and so one of the things so Tim Cook of wild [TS]

01:27:42   back at some point you know a while but it's all been within the last month but [TS]

01:27:46   at one point had compared it to the creation of this government os/2 cancer [TS]

01:27:51   and I think a better analogy I've been thinking about this bothered me ever [TS]

01:27:57   since and a better analogy to me it's close but to me it's a better analogy is [TS]

01:28:00   chemical weapons or biological weapons and I've seen other people make this [TS]

01:28:04   comparison that creation of this is like creating a biological weapon and you can [TS]

01:28:09   say oh we're gonna let you keep it in a secure place and will read it and we're [TS]

01:28:14   gonna have we're going to devise a very precise carefully planned procedure for [TS]

01:28:21   the application of it so that it's only applied in this one specific thing I'm [TS]

01:28:26   but that there is a very good argument that the best way to avoid the dangers [TS]

01:28:32   of of biological weapons getting out of your control is to never create them in [TS]

01:28:36   the first place and that to me is where the cancer analogy falls down is it [TS]

01:28:39   nobody's created cancer cancer is not know I but i think it really matters [TS]

01:28:44   no no I think I think your true it's not an intent it's a byproduct of biological [TS]

01:28:48   processes and maybe pesticides and pragmatics and so forth right yeah [TS]

01:28:52   absolutely that's fine ever thought of technology that's right and i think it's [TS]

01:28:55   it's a little I think it i haven't seen Apple repeat that analogy and I think [TS]

01:28:59   they realize that it's not it's not it it's not a good enough analogy right [TS]

01:29:03   because there's this that the part of the argument that are at the entirety of [TS]

01:29:08   the government's argument is that this could be controlled and it would never [TS]

01:29:12   get out it it given the right precautions it would it would never get [TS]

01:29:16   out of control [TS]

01:29:17   and that i can think about this like what if you know ok government says you [TS]

01:29:22   hospital X we need you [TS]

01:29:25   sisters of charitable mercy we need you to open to open heart surgery on this [TS]

01:29:30   individual who has a micro SD card and planted in his heart and we need that [TS]

01:29:35   data and we and so the church you know the the hospital tries to oppose it [TS]

01:29:40   their order to do so a court order them to do what surgeon goes in and does the [TS]

01:29:43   open-heart surgery right you know to do that i mean that's a one-off thing to [TS]

01:29:47   it's not even it's bad and it's like okay well Ulysses possible well we have [TS]

01:29:50   a thousand open-heart surgeries we need to schedule tomorrow and we will have [TS]

01:29:54   surgeons trained in this now too so it's very easy to do [TS]

01:29:57   no no no no now that he has a chip in the heart [TS]

01:30:01   alright let me just take a break here and thank our next sponsor and it's our [TS]

01:30:06   good friends at audible audible.com has more than 180,000 audiobooks and spoken [TS]

01:30:14   word audio products and you can get a 30-day free trial at audible.com / talk [TS]

01:30:20   show if you want to listen to it audible has it you mean you could literally I [TS]

01:30:25   think with a hundred $80,000 280,000 audio but you could probably spend every [TS]

01:30:29   minute every waking minute of the rest your life and not not finished listening [TS]

01:30:32   to the awkward the audible library they have audio books from every genre you [TS]

01:30:39   can imagine [TS]

01:30:40   anytime anywhere and you can play audible audiobooks on phones tablets [TS]

01:30:45   computers most candles all the modern candles and even ipods audio books are [TS]

01:30:52   great for flights [TS]

01:30:54   they're great for road trips they are great to fill up your daily commute [TS]

01:31:00   I think it's a great solution for everybody who wishes that I did the talk [TS]

01:31:03   show more frequently fill in the gaps with books from audio from audible it's [TS]

01:31:09   it's just a tremendous resource for anybody who has the time to listen to [TS]

01:31:12   stuff like that i like to go when I walk and a run through the city and take a [TS]

01:31:17   jog or whatever I want to have something to listen to [TS]

01:31:21   so in its it it drives me nuts if I don't have something to listen to with [TS]

01:31:25   audible.com you'll never ever run out of [TS]

01:31:28   love to listen 280,000 books free free trial just go to audible.com / talk show [TS]

01:31:38   my thanks to audible for sponsoring the show once again unbelievable library [TS]

01:31:44   inaudible alright what else should we talk about glam tiny phones tiny phones [TS]

01:31:50   for tiny hands [TS]

01:31:51   bulgarian handed phones tiny tiny and i love the idea that Donald Trump is [TS]

01:31:57   bothered by it but it just keeps sending it says the photocopies of his hands [TS]

01:32:03   right well what is with the driver in greater harder right Eric few years it's [TS]

01:32:09   not like it at once like it's great cars with every couple years he gets his [TS]

01:32:13   story for those of you know the story i'm paraphrasing I got put in the [TS]

01:32:17   showings it's such a funny story that's so telling as to Donald Trump's [TS]

01:32:20   personality but the story is i think i might even predated the Vanity Fair was [TS]

01:32:24   it for spy magazine always person i think was a spy that's right I i well [TS]

01:32:29   but Graydon Carter has long been the editor at Vanity Fair and before that [TS]

01:32:35   was the editor at the late beloved Spy magazine which was just fantastic wrote [TS]

01:32:42   a profile of trumpet like it in the eighties and i think he called him a [TS]

01:32:45   small handed Vulgarian small small small finger small things involving heard [TS]

01:32:52   anything like that and in the decade sense [TS]

01:32:56   Graydon Carter since you said recently that every you know once a year maybe a [TS]

01:33:01   2 years ago by but then it gets another one every couple every couple of years [TS]

01:33:04   he gets a letter from Trump with like a picture from a magazine pulled out and I [TS]

01:33:12   in gold sharpie a circle around the hands and then just like a handwritten [TS]

01:33:17   note that says look at those hands not small that I so you know there's a super [TS]

01:33:24   PAC political activity was registered by a portland oregon man called Trump has [TS]

01:33:28   tiny hands and the federal election commission on monday so the FCC has been [TS]

01:33:33   deadlocked with two members Republican appointed to democratic appointed [TS]

01:33:36   members destroying the ability for the FCC to enforce election law [TS]

01:33:40   and it's been going on for years because Congress want to prove the third . he [TS]

01:33:44   would give the balance of power of Democrats under obama money [TS]

01:33:47   one of the many and transgender points right I FBC acts against this guy on [TS]

01:33:51   Monday obviously can't do anything they act against this guy requiring the [TS]

01:33:56   changes Trump has tiny hands back so he's changed his name [TS]

01:33:59   it's now the Americans against insecure billionaires with tiny hands and this [TS]

01:34:04   political action [TS]

01:34:05   oh my god that could do that Trump famously was a however however large or [TS]

01:34:16   small his hands are a few years ago remember he tweeted something to the [TS]

01:34:22   effect of that this is before the iphone 6 came out that Apple needs to put out a [TS]

01:34:26   big iphone you know get with the times or sometimes that's funny yeah so trunk [TS]

01:34:31   from however small his hands are is a fan of large phones through increased my [TS]

01:34:37   wife like small phones and when I used for she's an iphone 5 that is failing [TS]

01:34:40   and when i use it when she hands it to me and she makes type large as a little [TS]

01:34:44   vision issues so she makes type large and i use it and i feel like i'm using a [TS]

01:34:47   fairy phone and like little tiny fairies use this phone is so I'm like how many [TS]

01:34:51   years that i use a phone that was that size or smaller and it seemed fine i [TS]

01:34:55   have an iphone 6s and now the iphone 5 size 5 exercise seems ridiculous but [TS]

01:35:00   she's waiting [TS]

01:35:01   her phone is failing if the SE ships are it is announced on monday as expected [TS]

01:35:05   then she's a customer i will Charles the customer i would argue that in its [TS]

01:35:10   certain sense i don't know what the volume is but in a in a hand feel sense [TS]

01:35:14   i would argue that the iphone 5 and 5s are the smallest iphone their apple ever [TS]

01:35:17   made and I know that the screen got big hole it went from three and a half four [TS]

01:35:21   but it's so much thinner that to me it feels smaller and I i have my little [TS]

01:35:27   Museum here bored I iphones uh-huh that do because of the thinnest it feels [TS]

01:35:32   smaller in the hand that it feels like the smallest iphone the every that that [TS]

01:35:36   is probably at your right by volume and like screen edge dimensions yes maybe by [TS]

01:35:41   volume it's not because of the extra length of to accommodate the foreign [TS]

01:35:46   screen as opposed to 3.5 but because you hold it sideways typically you don't [TS]

01:35:51   really hold it and end [TS]

01:35:53   that the volume that matters is sort of like the you know like the bottom half [TS]

01:35:58   of the phone that's true or like the bottom you know 23 inches is the really [TS]

01:36:03   the volume that matters in that the whatever sticks up off the top doesn't [TS]

01:36:07   really count [TS]

01:36:08   I think it's gonna be a big seller i hope it actually is a real thing seems [TS]

01:36:11   very reliably so that's a real thing and it's it's fun to watch [TS]

01:36:16   I mean Apple has that matrix who did that a few years ago before something [TS]

01:36:19   came with the ipad mini something came out where someone built this likes this [TS]

01:36:23   fan of like all the devices and sizes and prices they said here are the holes [TS]

01:36:27   than apple released devices that fit in those holes are filthy [TS]

01:36:30   the SEC is absolutely one of those holes right now I i think it's fascinating [TS]

01:36:35   that here we are we're recording on Wednesday mark 16 and I think the shows [TS]

01:36:38   going to air on thursday i don't know when people listen I hopefully they'll [TS]

01:36:43   listen before the event on monday but who knows what while leak at the last [TS]

01:36:47   possible minute but it's fascinating to me that the phone hasn't leaked and I [TS]

01:36:51   know that there was like a CAD drawing that one of the rumor sites i don't know [TS]

01:36:55   if it was 9to5 mac or macrumors probably 9to5 mac but they had like a CAD [TS]

01:37:00   rendering that they then interpreted as a you know made like a rendering out of [TS]

01:37:06   but we don't really know like the parts didn't leak there's nobody who's held up [TS]

01:37:11   a part that says here's the you know here's the casing for the iphone SE and [TS]

01:37:16   I actually wonder if it's shipping like a month in there but i can't imagine [TS]

01:37:19   they can do the events a and you can order this for shipping on may first and [TS]

01:37:23   only available day and date her to believe government variety right yeah I [TS]

01:37:27   think government says by friday which is actually kind of interesting my you know [TS]

01:37:30   just my own selfish interests that it's i'm going to the event will be at the [TS]

01:37:35   event I gas since i'm going that i'll probably get one to review but if [TS]

01:37:41   they're shipping on friday i don't i'm not quite sure how how I write a review [TS]

01:37:44   before it actually ships [TS]

01:37:46   yeah that's it it seems the only other through monday event [TS]

01:37:51   yeah although the other hand maybe it's very easy device to review its it's back [TS]

01:37:57   to the old sighs and it's got the new specs and you know figure out like the [TS]

01:38:01   chips [TS]

01:38:02   I think I'm gonna like it I think I'm going to I don't know that i'll switch [TS]

01:38:06   from the forest seven but i might be very tempted to I'd I it's it's gonna be [TS]

01:38:12   a close call for me I i love that there i mean if this happens it seems so [TS]

01:38:16   likely i love that they're doing it because that we talked to talk to some [TS]

01:38:20   other folks about the notion that we're going to post numbering that maybe this [TS]

01:38:25   is or maybe this model never gets number i think you bring about the ask you is [TS]

01:38:29   that like was some point but you know the ipad 3 was that called the ipad 2 in [TS]

01:38:34   the ipad 3 then it became the ipad and numbers are bad for Apple except they're [TS]

01:38:39   trying to create demand like a poll of demand for the newer thing and I think [TS]

01:38:43   sales figures and growth make sure that they just need to be shipping out [TS]

01:38:47   devices maybe not getting the expectation that it's every September in [TS]

01:38:52   the same way and the new plans I mean the thing is with a lot of people [TS]

01:38:56   shipping to shifting to installment plans that allow an upgrade after either [TS]

01:38:58   12 or 18 months i think we're going to see seems like the majority of people in [TS]

01:39:03   the US will wind up on a plan with either 12 or 18 months refresh and some [TS]

01:39:06   with like a you know 20 or 24 month where they don't pay me extra for that [TS]

01:39:11   that's going to flood the market with older phones in some fashion will be [TS]

01:39:15   resold or there'll be no refurbished right and available and then you have [TS]

01:39:21   all these people like I mean hey look i'm not an installment plan by getting [TS]

01:39:24   an iphone 7 or whatever it's called probably because I feel like that's my [TS]

01:39:27   Apple fee is now I'm paying know what is 56 bucks a month i'll just be that [TS]

01:39:31   forever for my phone and I'll just always have the freshest phone like that [TS]

01:39:35   does not seem like a penalty to me the way their marketing it [TS]

01:39:39   yeah to me I think it'll probably personally come down to image quality [TS]

01:39:44   I think that cool or you know for the camera that if you want your 12 [TS]

01:39:49   megapixel one well I don't care about the megapixel ok I'm sorry but like I [TS]

01:39:52   had her right eye care the field I want to the field [TS]

01:39:55   well you're not going to get that in this camp you know I know it's not going [TS]

01:39:59   to move [TS]

01:39:59   it's not going to move that forward but if to me it looks like i can take the [TS]

01:40:03   same quality pictures in the same lighting conditions as my my phone 600 [TS]

01:40:08   Morrissey yes more or less that it you know at least to my eyes it looks like [TS]

01:40:13   i'm getting the same image quality I think I would [TS]

01:40:15   for the smaller phone i like the way it feels in my hand I like the way it is [TS]

01:40:20   smaller in my pocket and I to be honest the majority of what I read on the phone [TS]

01:40:29   is Twitter and tweets because they're so small it doesn't matter that i can see [TS]

01:40:35   more of them at a time on a larger screen who and I you know I I read I to [TS]

01:40:41   read a lot of articles on mobile safari but I don't I never mind it that much [TS]

01:40:45   you know like to me both screens aren't small and constrained for reading [TS]

01:40:49   articles and they just reflow them with the in a reader view or something like [TS]

01:40:54   that so who the big screen to me isn't all that appealing i see you know it is [TS]

01:40:59   certainly a trade-off but it turns of the smaller device sized i don't know i [TS]

01:41:03   think i'm on the fence me and malts yeah I like time in the smaller phone i mean [TS]

01:41:07   this comes back to apparently were both guys so there's an issue there which is [TS]

01:41:11   that we don't have the tiny unusable pockets or no pockets that a lot of [TS]

01:41:14   women have their clothing my friend erin mckean who's that word Nick the head of [TS]

01:41:18   that great site thats collecting like open source of definitions of words a [TS]

01:41:23   non-profit project she likes micro dresses makes wonderful stuff what about [TS]

01:41:27   it for the magazine years ago and she puts pockets and stuff it's just people [TS]

01:41:31   stopping all the time where you have pockets in your clothing other happens [TS]

01:41:34   like I've made the dress that's those pockets of it was encountered this all [TS]

01:41:38   the time in my wife wears you know stylish but not like um like fashion of [TS]

01:41:42   certainly stylish unusable clothing and got to think like that was the thing [TS]

01:41:46   with the iphone 6 or if I'm gonna have six plus when it came out I thought I [TS]

01:41:51   don't want to phone that big but i'm not going to prejudge it because Apple knows [TS]

01:41:54   the market better and i am like one tiny segment now of the mark I don't want a [TS]

01:41:57   gold phone I don't want to go watch I want whatever I and a lot of women i [TS]

01:42:02   know i liked the six plus because they already keeping a phone in their purse [TS]

01:42:05   and this was like this is great i can read it and it doubles as a kindle it [TS]

01:42:10   serves many purposes and a lot of women and some men i know but i would say more [TS]

01:42:14   of the women I know got it then man although several men we know like my [TS]

01:42:17   curly and support the big fans of it i feel like the BSE is definitely ties [TS]

01:42:21   more into that like the small pocket thing or small like not having a lot of [TS]

01:42:25   rumors stuff to carry [TS]

01:42:27   it's going to be for an audience that [TS]

01:42:29   has been underserved the 5s Phil back app I'm so I'm excited to go out for [TS]

01:42:34   this event because I so don't know I'm what I have a good guess what they're [TS]

01:42:38   going to show ya but i have no idea how they're going to sell it to us which to [TS]

01:42:43   me is interesting because there's two main things that they've got to get the [TS]

01:42:46   smaller phone and they got the than the new iPad pro that's only nine point [TS]

01:42:52   seven inches which is effectively just a smaller ipad pro so how do they stay how [TS]

01:42:56   do they get onstage and sell two devices that are it's exactly like the thing we [TS]

01:43:00   announced in September between right that neither of them are going to do [TS]

01:43:05   anything better than the ones that are already on the market [TS]

01:43:09   I wonderful talk about as a family of devices we know people have different [TS]

01:43:12   needs and different bands and the 5s has been a stunning woman to the 5s never [TS]

01:43:15   talk backwards right like we you know we fill this category in the past and now [TS]

01:43:19   we felt we could do something unique and new and this is what we're doing to fill [TS]

01:43:24   out our product line to fit a family of needs write something like that [TS]

01:43:28   i I don't know and they have to say something new that there's always a new [TS]

01:43:31   thing this is the reason why we waited till now to do this what is it we don't [TS]

01:43:35   i don't know yeah I don't know how it's just like the less than with smaller how [TS]

01:43:38   they get something new out of it I there must be but I is that I'd like the [TS]

01:43:42   canopy is last thing but smaller think different right [TS]

01:43:46   do you think there's a question I that I keep me in and asked us on Twitter but [TS]

01:43:50   i'll ask you do you think they will come out with the smart battery pack for the [TS]

01:43:58   iphone SE that's a great question i just i was working for wire cutter for a [TS]

01:44:03   while I work on this USB battery guy . the battery into the battery pack that [TS]

01:44:07   was that damn freaks old friend dentrix working the battery pack up from that [TS]

01:44:12   came out but looking at a lot of batteries that are out there and what's [TS]

01:44:16   capable and what the capacity of this thing will likely be I have a hard time [TS]

01:44:22   believing it because i think the whole idea this was going to be that sort of [TS]

01:44:26   like a very specific form right so if you come out with it and a battery pack [TS]

01:44:31   you're underselling what this phone is about because they are so much more [TS]

01:44:36   efficient with power than what the f of the 5s [TS]

01:44:39   i would bet they could eat thirty or forty percent more power out of the same [TS]

01:44:44   form factor than they can of the fs with a similar as using the same battery [TS]

01:44:49   capacity and so ostensibly allowed a slightly bigger battery because they're [TS]

01:44:53   better at that or slightly denser perhaps and everything will be so much [TS]

01:44:57   more efficient and because the screen is so much smaller by area and by pixel [TS]

01:45:02   count it written at risk [TS]

01:45:03   well but they perfected that really hard to believe that they would want I mean [TS]

01:45:08   what you want to strike I understand the 6s it makes a lot of sense because it's [TS]

01:45:13   kind of in the middle there and people i mean USB battery packs of all kinds not [TS]

01:45:17   just the ones that I I think cases have told so well I think if they do it will [TS]

01:45:22   roll out on the same schedule that the battery pack for the success did which [TS]

01:45:27   is you know six weeks after the phone comes out [TS]

01:45:30   don't steal the thunder yeah stress and here's something hey and don't don't [TS]

01:45:34   risk the the pr backlash of apple releases a phone that needs an external [TS]

01:45:39   battery pack [TS]

01:45:40   yeah right i mean they got that anyway when they released their own battery [TS]

01:45:43   pack but at at by the time november $YEAR rolled around it was a lot quieter [TS]

01:45:47   than if they had done it on stage [TS]

01:45:49   can I talk batteries for a second because i can't tell you how many [TS]

01:45:51   batteries are tested and I did this thing at the wire cutter I would have a [TS]

01:45:55   USB battery pack guy with that great writer their mark on super notice who [TS]

01:45:59   did a fantastic job use the battery testing lab Kate except in vancouver bc [TS]

01:46:03   is fascinating and then I did a bunch of reviews for macworld just a few weeks [TS]

01:46:08   ago of us bc equipped batteries and oh my god if you haven't touched the [TS]

01:46:13   battery like us be better if you like a few years ago were like these are sort [TS]

01:46:17   of terrible expensive they don't last long [TS]

01:46:19   the next generation is out and like across all these different manufacturers [TS]

01:46:23   and you can get you can charge the one that I like best in the macro roundup [TS]

01:46:28   was the anchor has a 20,000 100 milliampere our battery with us bc and [TS]

01:46:34   USA ear anybody 20,000 20,000 cost fifty bucks so if i can charge your macbook [TS]

01:46:40   about a hundred and ten percent from it [TS]

01:46:43   why 12-inch MacBook wow that's that I know what I was like you know it's kind [TS]

01:46:47   of watching batteries a little ahead and get into it and the [TS]

01:46:49   circuitry is so much better they hold a charge for the new like the new [TS]

01:46:52   lithium-ion cells are being used hold a charge better they're so much better at [TS]

01:46:57   conversion they don't heat up as much it's really extraordinary so if you've [TS]

01:47:02   been holding back on a USB sound like an ad for the images that it is complicated [TS]

01:47:06   though I actually looked into it a couple weeks ago and i was going to do a [TS]

01:47:09   wire cutter style thing where i actually bought like three or four just for the [TS]

01:47:13   phone [TS]

01:47:14   it was right after I did the battery case review and I thought you know what [TS]

01:47:17   I should review these little portable things because I've long had one it's a [TS]

01:47:21   couple and you're too old a mophie that has like most of my problem movie is a [TS]

01:47:27   movie alone has too many they have too many they also charge for x we need to [TS]

01:47:32   pay anywhere cuz it makes it so hard to figure out what to buy just got anybody [TS]

01:47:36   at murphy who listens to the show please for the love of God just get rid of [TS]

01:47:39   three quarters of your product lineup and just keep you know just tell me [TS]

01:47:43   what's the best one again because they have like different even just form [TS]

01:47:46   factors of them but anyway they've got one that I really like that has built in [TS]

01:47:49   a built-in USB cable and built not like yeah and it does pass through charging [TS]

01:47:56   does it do is it that pastor is interesting which is it too so it's got [TS]

01:48:00   a type a connector you can plug into a a DC adapter yeah like yeah like a [TS]

01:48:05   standard not you later doesn't have lightning the right now it doesn't like [TS]

01:48:09   me as a bit so does lightning and type in OC that's great and you can get that [TS]

01:48:12   there's a Travelcard if you want a really tiny one has a lightning and type [TS]

01:48:17   a thing with what's taking taipei means you plug it into the charger right yet i [TS]

01:48:22   pay is like the wreck the stator rectangular one and that's what you [TS]

01:48:25   mostly see that's the computer side more exciting to us bc or type is what you're [TS]

01:48:30   going to see on computers and all the AC adapters are taipei those rectangular [TS]

01:48:34   plugs but travel card is really is really neat because it has the integral [TS]

01:48:38   lightning mfa mfi approved or licensed certified whatever and and the one so [TS]

01:48:44   you only you don't carry any extra cable travelpod I think it's like 40 bucks so [TS]

01:48:48   it's expensive or 35 and it only charge your phone like I like two-thirds the [TS]

01:48:53   way or something but I like iphone 6 but if that's what you need if you're like [TS]

01:48:56   the question thing we did the wire cutters we divided it up into you need [TS]

01:49:00   it to top off at your [TS]

01:49:01   full day at work our way and you get through the night or the end of an [TS]

01:49:04   evening or do you want to be able to charge like for another full day of [TS]

01:49:08   usage or on the road on the road for like a week and you've got an ipad so [TS]

01:49:12   you can get things are now a differentiation you get anything from [TS]

01:49:15   like Oh amazon amazon basics it doesn't have a lightning cable but it will take [TS]

01:49:20   a regular plug you can plug your cable into it your regular right at ya [TS]

01:49:25   adapter two thousand milliampere our battery from amazon it will charge your [TS]

01:49:29   phone i think the resulting charges at least half or two-thirds it's five or [TS]

01:49:34   six bucks an amazon basics add-on so you can go all the way from that up to like [TS]

01:49:38   25,000 milliampere our grab power and some others that will charge an ipad [TS]

01:49:43   like six times or something that's really it's really interesting to think [TS]

01:49:46   about I mean I've always use them in the context of charging the phone but it's [TS]

01:49:49   interesting to think about charging like a macbook that way within getting like a [TS]

01:49:53   you know like a hundred you said 110% charge out of ya the rancor ism the [TS]

01:49:58   anchors raising anchors a fascinating companies like Google engineer and his [TS]

01:50:01   wife started this up and she started the business I think and then he eventually [TS]

01:50:04   quit google they moved back to China think they're from China richly move [TS]

01:50:08   back there are things we said and now they're shipping like a hundred thousand [TS]

01:50:12   items a month or something like they came from over there quite love anchor [TS]

01:50:16   quality it's like it's really great that whole lineup of stuff i and and they're [TS]

01:50:22   making their kind of pushing it so that what what happened really is that a lot [TS]

01:50:25   of companies panasonic LG and a bunch of other firms started to make really good [TS]

01:50:29   standardized you know essentially lithium-ion cells they their varying [TS]

01:50:33   size their cylinders like a double a battery but could be bigger or smaller [TS]

01:50:36   and the standardized components mean that nobody in the chain has to build [TS]

01:50:40   that part and they're all such high quality or bladder very high-quality now [TS]

01:50:44   that it's so affordable they can stick 3 or 6 or 8 into a thing with you know [TS]

01:50:50   some circuitry to handle charging and USB conversion and get you know it's [TS]

01:50:54   really all that like packaging engineering of taking this commodity [TS]

01:50:57   item and making it something better [TS]

01:50:59   it's cool it's the new fiscal future I the gist of my experimentation with [TS]

01:51:05   these movie ones i bought two with other ones that don't have built-in cables and [TS]

01:51:09   you instead of to supply your own lightning cable to charge your phone [TS]

01:51:12   from it [TS]

01:51:13   but the the other ones are more like almost like a basically like iphone size [TS]

01:51:17   batteries there you know yeah there in like an iphone and a varying sizes [TS]

01:51:23   depending on their capacity but you have to supply your own cable the thing that [TS]

01:51:26   really makes them work well for me is when you buy like from amazon basics or [TS]

01:51:31   i actually bought a couple from i forget the name of the company was named a [TS]

01:51:36   company by real cheap cables at a lot of price [TS]

01:51:38   monoprice so I want rise tomorrow sorry i bought it but about a bunch of these [TS]

01:51:43   little like three inch lightning cables which in a lot of context make no sense [TS]

01:51:48   at all but like for just putting a battery in your pocket while it charges [TS]

01:51:51   the phone it's absolutely perfect because then you don't have like dog to [TS]

01:51:55   me before i bought one of these little cables to go with it the whole the whole [TS]

01:51:59   thing that was such a pain and looked ridiculous is what do you do with the [TS]

01:52:02   three foot cable when you're charging it in a device that's in your pocket [TS]

01:52:07   these little like two or three inch lightning cables are perfect for that so [TS]

01:52:10   and to me it's a better solution than the Apple battery pack or any battery [TS]

01:52:15   pack for that matter because unless you really want to use the battery pack [TS]

01:52:18   every single day at winter we're at which point I really question whether [TS]

01:52:22   you shouldn't just get the iphone plus size if if that you know if you really [TS]

01:52:27   want it all the time every day why don't you just buy the iphone plus well this [TS]

01:52:32   is the thing that's interesting to having gone through all this battery [TS]

01:52:34   stuff is USB is a huge bottleneck and so including lightning there's only a [TS]

01:52:39   maximum amount of power you can push into an iphone or ipod ipad battery or [TS]

01:52:45   even recharges i'm testing 20,000 milliampere our batteries it takes hours [TS]

01:52:50   to train these things I got this thing I had to order from Japan this beautiful [TS]

01:52:53   little device cannot get in America that's a low generator it did that pulls [TS]

01:52:57   two amps of load up to like 3i think off a USB port and dissipated as heat so i [TS]

01:53:02   could drain the damn thing so i can test to see how fast they charge [TS]

01:53:06   there's a new quick charge two and three of these standards from Qualcomm that [TS]

01:53:10   are being built into android phones some other phones back in charge of higher [TS]

01:53:14   voltages so they can they charged in a relatively low amperage high voltage and [TS]

01:53:18   they can recharge battery like two or three times faster than at USB voltages [TS]

01:53:22   even at high temperatures so USB [TS]

01:53:25   c is interesting because USBC boosts the overall like wattage you can put into [TS]

01:53:31   something so if an ipad pro would actually really good with us bc because [TS]

01:53:36   it could safely charge this battery like four or five times faster than the [TS]

01:53:40   limits that USB put science-y you mean ipad pro I'd love to talk to some people [TS]

01:53:44   that that what if what if [TS]

01:53:46   well it's george time is lightning definitely put a limiting factor what if [TS]

01:53:50   the lightning cable started with us bc to get the power and then was lightning [TS]

01:53:54   into the device that's a good question i believe that lightning has a wattage [TS]

01:53:59   limits that is below what you can do with us bc by a large factor so man of [TS]

01:54:06   course I don't know what the limit is i think it's i think it's only 15 watts [TS]

01:54:10   you can put over lightning and you can do you know the macbook charges that [TS]

01:54:14   well as a 29 wat charger and USB see could have 200 watts on a cable you want [TS]

01:54:20   to do that with an ipad pro but even like a 3829 water 31 charger for the [TS]

01:54:24   ipad pro I think would at legacy least double or maybe even be sixty-seven [TS]

01:54:30   percent more than you can do with lightnings limits one of the basic rules [TS]

01:54:33   of computer technology in general is that anything that slowed will [TS]

01:54:37   eventually be faster right it's terrible i get it and you just accept it like you [TS]

01:54:43   just we used to just accept that it took a 90 seconds to copy a 1.4 megabyte [TS]

01:54:47   floppy disk we just accepted that and because what are you gonna do you wait [TS]

01:54:51   and now do you know the idea that you'd wait the long . noticeable . of time to [TS]

01:54:58   copy one megabyte of data it's laughable [TS]

01:55:02   so what slow today charging e listening to you talk about this charging is slow [TS]

01:55:07   and it's like you know if you just you know get AG you know we develop habits [TS]

01:55:11   to avoid having to worry about it charging overnight charging while we're [TS]

01:55:15   out your desk but like you know like my son is not good with remembering to do [TS]

01:55:20   it and it's like you're going on a road trip in its it are you heading to the [TS]

01:55:23   airport and it's phone is already in the red it's like a guy would you thinking [TS]

01:55:26   you know but it's and that's when you really notice boy it phone does not take [TS]

01:55:31   a charge very quickly when you're in re no that's a big I think that's a big [TS]

01:55:35   thing and that's why I mean Qualcomm this is where they're trying to innovate [TS]

01:55:37   on the opposite side and I'm sure [TS]

01:55:39   your love Apple to adopt this and apples not gonna adopt quick charge I don't [TS]

01:55:43   think that's doesn't it sound like a lightning based thing right but I've got [TS]

01:55:46   a couple quick charge three chargers he had a car they can't afford to be left [TS]

01:55:50   behind now you know I mean lady that one sec though they can do this bc and they [TS]

01:55:55   don't have to be quick charging can push more amperage are my thing is a [TS]

01:55:58   combination average and wattage through i wonder if I wonder if they could do a [TS]

01:56:01   lightning to that would increase the amperage but would be a physically [TS]

01:56:07   compatible I I think USBC is the direction and I'm i'm just wondering if [TS]

01:56:13   lightning I mean I know this has been about we talk about this since $YEAR [TS]

01:56:16   USBC became a thing that Apple wanted to do is like it's really tricky to put a [TS]

01:56:21   USB it's only slightly larger than lightning but it's tricky to put it in [TS]

01:56:24   my phone but I think it's probably the right approach i don't i don't think to [TS]

01:56:28   apples never going to put us [TS]

01:56:29   you don't think I know I know them i wonder if they would add this is they [TS]

01:56:32   are never going to add a second part of an ipad right but they should have the [TS]

01:56:35   USBC port on ipad pro it's not gonna happen [TS]

01:56:37   I think lightning is becoming an adequate to the task and I think that [TS]

01:56:42   they're gonna have to cope with that eventually yeah wonder i wonder how much [TS]

01:56:45   of this they've foresaw and how much now they're like me paint ourselves into . [TS]

01:56:49   yeah you're totally right so they could have no lightning too could actually be [TS]

01:56:53   lightning too could have us bc i'm one and enlightening to on the other and the [TS]

01:56:57   same cable thing and it's backwards compatible but if you've got lightning [TS]

01:57:01   to circuitry and a lightning to cable you get to charge you totally that is [TS]

01:57:05   totally feasible i forget that so that that could be where they're going and [TS]

01:57:08   then going to take advantage of the USBC infrastructure for having chargers other [TS]

01:57:12   star and they're really push it that way but yeah I mean you know you don't want [TS]

01:57:15   to take like seven hours to recharge and ipad pro battery that doesn't make sense [TS]

01:57:19   right [TS]

01:57:20   you want to take like three or two is that it's the thing but on the other [TS]

01:57:26   hand you know this anchor this was talking about that I like it's always [TS]

01:57:29   like a pound or something [TS]

01:57:31   it's a pound 20 amp hours and fifty bucks so you're sort of like I will if I [TS]

01:57:37   need to carry something extra I get one of these things and then sort of set and [TS]

01:57:42   anyway it's such a bit so it's such a like walkie little area but it battery [TS]

01:57:46   life is the thing that affects us more [TS]

01:57:48   I mean you know network speed has been solved but you get LTE [TS]

01:57:51   in most places pretty good and so battery is the next frontier to kind of [TS]

01:57:56   resolve [TS]

01:57:57   no I definitely I mean there's no doubt about it the battery life is the biggest [TS]

01:58:01   it's the the lagging technology at the moment it means 12 I learned so much [TS]

01:58:06   about what hours and see like the top number [TS]

01:58:09   there's a thing about like how much Colin's you can stick into a battery [TS]

01:58:12   fast enough without damaging it and some of its that's wild like you get into [TS]

01:58:17   that it's like people spend a lot of time doing a lot of little formulas to [TS]

01:58:20   make sure everything matches up correctly my sixth-grade batter are not [TS]

01:58:24   battery my sixth-grade science fair project was on battery batteries and [TS]

01:58:29   your head of your time I did a very proud a poor job on it i think i got [TS]

01:58:33   like a be i don't think I got a b-plus look it's mike with my son my son is in [TS]

01:58:37   sixth grade one of his comrades did a hovercraft using a modified electric [TS]

01:58:42   leaf blower it actually hovers and carry somebody five pounds this is the science [TS]

01:58:45   fairs today i really i really have asked my sixth-grade science fair project my [TS]

01:58:51   the the test was not whether alkaline batteries last longer that was [TS]

01:58:58   self-evident than regular remember the time I know you combine our alkaline [TS]

01:59:02   batteries like we're talking about like Double A or seed those yeah betters [TS]

01:59:06   there were there were regular there were heavy duty quote-unquote and alkaline [TS]

01:59:13   like the door sellin and the analyzer and so my test wasn't whether they [TS]

01:59:17   actually lasted longer of course they did it was whether you at consumer [TS]

01:59:21   prices whether you were getting more bang for your buck with them and well it [TS]

01:59:27   sounds clever and got it was like good enough to get the thing approved but it [TS]

01:59:31   really turned out to be not not a very exciting test and it was actually [TS]

01:59:34   devilishly hard because of what I the way the test device was to use the same [TS]

01:59:40   flashlight and put these C batteries and then turn the flashlight on note the [TS]

01:59:45   time and note the time I went off but not finding out what time flashlight [TS]

01:59:49   burned-out is oh my god this is hilarious this was a wire cutters [TS]

01:59:53   battery guy he really review with this exact same probably put it they put a [TS]

01:59:56   flashlight in there videotaping a flashlight . into [TS]

01:59:56   flashlight in there videotaping a flashlight . into [TS]

02:00:00   box was how he ultimately did it I think see I didn't have a video camera is [TS]

02:00:04   actually going to have a 12-hour videotape i right I wouldn't have a [TS]

02:00:07   12-hour videotape and it got to the point where my parents got a little mad [TS]

02:00:10   I mean this was not that this was not the most expensive scientific tests that [TS]

02:00:14   was ever performed but it did seem like I kept saying I need more back her oh my [TS]

02:00:18   god they're expensive and so I kind of had to triangulate like based on when it [TS]

02:00:23   seemed it was going off in the middle of the night okay so i started it at 5pm [TS]

02:00:28   and one of the middle of the night how about I start the next one at nine in [TS]

02:00:31   the morning before i go on a date more income school and it was like [TS]

02:00:36   petitioning my sister and my parents like every time you buy this flashlight [TS]

02:00:39   see if it's on [TS]

02:00:40   I one more thing to talk about batteries batteries are so exciting and others are [TS]

02:00:44   delighted about it there's a new kind of double a battery and kind of lithium [TS]

02:00:48   battery you can get its not lifting is called was it [TS]

02:00:52   oh I'm blanking on the name here it's a nickel nickel metal hydride or something [TS]

02:00:57   lithium what is it there's new batteries you can get now that perform [TS]

02:01:00   rechargeables that performs so much better than the old ones they've changed [TS]

02:01:04   the fundamental like chemistry of them so in the past you get really terrible [TS]

02:01:10   recharging performance and now you get there so much better because of this [TS]

02:01:16   thing's to get this its cycles like 500,000 times it you little maintain a [TS]

02:01:24   charge longer like all the things used to drive you nuts about rechargeable [TS]

02:01:27   batteries the new generation but now is appointing that when Jonas was younger [TS]

02:01:31   and had a lot of kids toys we did I did the right thing I volunteer i took this [TS]

02:01:36   undertook this myself and I did the right thing and bought like 40 double-a [TS]

02:01:41   rechargeables and forty triple-a for the toys that took the envelope just a whole [TS]

02:01:45   slew of these i think i got it from a company called like green battery or [TS]

02:01:48   something like that that was already highly rated and a charger that would [TS]

02:01:52   charge a bunch of them at once and then for all of his toys we use them but it's [TS]

02:01:56   it quickly became clear that boy they ran out faster than like al-qaeda was so [TS]

02:02:01   tempting to just buy the big pack and ourselves and put put them in there [TS]

02:02:05   that's what we went from rechargeables to costco alkalines I always felt [TS]

02:02:08   terrible like I'm destroying the earth because you know instead of being [TS]

02:02:12   believes a few seconds that sense electricity because they weren't [TS]

02:02:15   reliable but now over time was everything i have is lithium ion battery [TS]

02:02:19   powered now anyways awesome internal battery so very very few things require [TS]

02:02:22   one [TS]

02:02:23   yeah they seem to do really poorly and remote controls to for some reason [TS]

02:02:27   because like rip it replacing the batteries in a remote seems like [TS]

02:02:30   something that you should only have to do like you know like I don't know more [TS]

02:02:36   than a year right i don't know i haven't I haven't changed the battery and in our [TS]

02:02:39   remotes in a long time whereas when we were using those those rechargeables it [TS]

02:02:43   seemed like it was like all the time [TS]

02:02:45   yeah these new this new generation wonder they call their Nick know they [TS]

02:02:49   are there nickel-metal hydride nickel-metal I tried ni-mh low [TS]

02:02:56   self-discharge LSD [TS]

02:02:58   I don't know where you heard LSD for that doesn't seem like a problematic [TS]

02:03:01   abbreviation you know they helping last four sometimes I think now it's they [TS]

02:03:07   have months or even years will maintain their charge and they can do like I say [TS]

02:03:13   hundreds 2000 + $OPERAND cycles so and that these are relatively new so if [TS]

02:03:18   you're buying batteries like three to five years ago you'd be frustrated if [TS]

02:03:22   you buy this generation in the end you have to carefully like Mexico wire [TS]

02:03:25   cutters good review of them you have to look for brands and types because [TS]

02:03:29   something very even among capacities they can be better or worse but much [TS]

02:03:33   better experience [TS]

02:03:34   alright let me take one last break and thank our final sponsor the show it's [TS]

02:03:37   our good friends at fracture you guys no fracture there the company that prints [TS]

02:03:40   photos directly onto glass you can go to fracture me.com and if you use the code [TS]

02:03:48   talk show 10 just talk show 10 you get ten percent off your first order the [TS]

02:03:55   codes easy remember talk show 10 10 is the 10-percent you save $MONEY off your [TS]

02:03:59   order now here's the thing the fracture pictures look great they make awesome [TS]

02:04:06   gifts they make a great way to take the photos that you have on your phone in [TS]

02:04:11   your you know iCloud account [TS]

02:04:15   that you've never actually printed and put them into the analog world it's the [TS]

02:04:18   best way to do it because they put them right on class they ship and these [TS]

02:04:22   amazing packages that have everything you need to hang them up on the wall all [TS]

02:04:25   included so you don't need to frame they are frame it's just an edge-to-edge [TS]

02:04:28   piece of glass that's ready to pop on the wall prop on your desk put it on the [TS]

02:04:33   mantel could not be easier and you never have to worry about all the stupid [TS]

02:04:37   little fiddly things you do when you get a regular printed photo on paper into a [TS]

02:04:41   frame where it has to be perfectly aligned and then you seal the frame back [TS]

02:04:44   up and it tilts off two percent and you have to open up the frame again and [TS]

02:04:47   redirect it and try to get it sticks so it's perfectly lined forget it you have [TS]

02:04:51   to do any of that you'll get a better looking image and a better quality and a [TS]

02:04:56   much more impressive display from fracture and it's better quality and [TS]

02:05:03   it's easier so I you can't lose each factors hand assembled and check for [TS]

02:05:09   quality by their small team in gainesville florida [TS]

02:05:11   they're great people a great company and they really do in addition to having a [TS]

02:05:15   great product they really do offer great service so just go to fracture me calm [TS]

02:05:19   and remember the code talk show 10 when you checkout and you will save ten [TS]

02:05:23   percent well we should wrap up we've been talking for a while anything else [TS]

02:05:27   what else is on the agenda anything else you think that they're going to do at [TS]

02:05:30   the event next week [TS]

02:05:32   get that I wonder if they're going to slipstream in these kind of Wi-Fi update [TS]

02:05:35   or cellular or something because i feel like the water that the Wi-Fi quote a [TS]

02:05:39   pretty old i think they sell a lot of it and somebody's working about Wi-Fi ton [TS]

02:05:44   of here it's not like they're kind of like two or three years behind some of [TS]

02:05:48   the features in the marketplace so I wonder I wonder what they'll do did you [TS]

02:05:51   see the new thing Walt Mossberg a review of it is called the e something and it's [TS]

02:05:55   like a bunch of little pods that you put around your house to sort of create a [TS]

02:05:58   network 0 I'm like not so hip on it because I feel like it's it's expensive [TS]

02:06:05   I saw a review it was like this is great i had a torrid our port 80 gr 0 0 sorry [TS]

02:06:14   and I guess the great finish architect eero saarinen a great answer if you're [TS]

02:06:18   doing a either trivial pursuit or crossword puzzles ter oh sorry and I he [TS]

02:06:25   designed the dorm i lived in college had no right angles we hate [TS]

02:06:28   it's so much so much you can put anything up against the wall daddy [TS]

02:06:31   restaurant in this beautiful designer with the dulles airport ok but i believe [TS]

02:06:36   that's right i'm saying that now i don't know but i think he's a famous architect [TS]

02:06:41   this is nothing to do with him i hope the license the name [TS]

02:06:44   yes he designed it anyway so here oh yeah so they're so everyone said well I [TS]

02:06:49   had a two dollar here a dollar apple airport extreme and it didn't reach [TS]

02:06:53   everywhere so about three of these things that was great [TS]

02:06:55   another twenty dollars each I'm thinking that doesn't actually prove that they're [TS]

02:06:58   better like you did with the Select by side so i don't know i think their [TS]

02:07:02   notion is they're trying to make it's you know it's simpler they're small [TS]

02:07:06   they're intrusive and they think they automatically pair over Wi-Fi so that's [TS]

02:07:11   a nice idea compared to having to go into configure crap and airport utility [TS]

02:07:16   I mean I didn't write the airport utility for like 12 15 pounds since it [TS]

02:07:20   came out 2001 and it's never been a great piece of software it's gotten [TS]

02:07:23   better but it's not it's always possible [TS]

02:07:26   it's always done well compared to the competition but it's correct yes it's i [TS]

02:07:30   have a tp-link Archer c7 which is one of the top-rated routers from you not from [TS]

02:07:35   google or apple it's like 90 bucks and is 802 11 see it's great and their [TS]

02:07:40   interfaces dogs lunch like I love them but there's like 40,000 options and its [TS]

02:07:46   really it's like yours no streamline like I want to do this thing it's like [TS]

02:07:50   no you're gonna give your throw every single thing we could put the firmware [TS]

02:07:53   at you it's not great that's not what people want a lot of them it's almost [TS]

02:07:56   like you're just opening a dot-com file right [TS]

02:08:00   vomiting . com yeah so there's that I love the idea so 0 is they're trying to [TS]

02:08:06   get a very high profit margin in order to take all the pain away and there's [TS]

02:08:10   you know there's market for that you look at something like nest cam nest cam [TS]

02:08:14   is interesting because it's not you know its premium in the market it's not [TS]

02:08:18   actually that much more expensive then make competitors and offer similar [TS]

02:08:22   features it's a lot more competitive than the cheapo IP cameras you have to [TS]

02:08:26   do a ton of configuration for and don't have a cloud service but ness camps was [TS]

02:08:30   sold and I think the millions at this point because you plug it in and you're [TS]

02:08:34   done right now it's nice like that [TS]

02:08:37   I can't help but wonder that's it you you put the idea in my head you know the [TS]

02:08:41   Wi-Fi the ideas i haven't heard anything like that but it does seem like it might [TS]

02:08:44   be overdue and it's a technology that's constantly marched forward ever since [TS]

02:08:49   introduction and so therefore it seems like maybe it might be due and it would [TS]

02:08:55   tie into maybe just the basic home kit you know who knows maybe they have [TS]

02:09:01   something that you know i'm not trying to anybody's hopes up but maybe they [TS]

02:09:04   have some other kind of home kit you know stuff you plug into your house [TS]

02:09:08   stuff to announce just geyser it would be a good and now it would be a good [TS]

02:09:13   event to do it because it's not going to be you know it it doesn't seem that it [TS]

02:09:18   clearly it out on campus it's in the little town town hall so it's not going [TS]

02:09:21   to be a flagship event there's no blockbuster that's going to be coming [TS]

02:09:24   otherwise they'd held it in a bigger venue [TS]

02:09:27   well the fourth generation Apple TV as I recollect it has home kit hub features [TS]

02:09:31   right it's got bluetooth in it and whatever and I they haven't rolled that [TS]

02:09:35   into the Wi-Fi devices so right I i could see them do the other thing they [TS]

02:09:40   could do is do some kind of simple setup like you do when the apple TV works [TS]

02:09:43   right when that's work like hold your thing hold your phone near the device [TS]

02:09:46   now you can set it up [TS]

02:09:47   that's really cool and that worked for me with the apple TV i really liked it i [TS]

02:09:51   could see them adding bluetooth when it works it works like no like got to work [TS]

02:09:55   once the I like we're able to do a lot more now that i can use the remote app [TS]

02:09:59   like i used i use it a lot more since they updated to support that but Wi-Fi [TS]

02:10:05   stuff is often slipstream din like they'll put a press release and not [TS]

02:10:08   announce it right in a March or April event i think the last few generations [TS]

02:10:11   of real improvements so yeah it might make me might make for something it [TS]

02:10:15   would take a demo because that's what I that's what I kind of feel like they [TS]

02:10:19   might be you know hit up is you know just something that they can demo on [TS]

02:10:23   stage to fill an hour [TS]

02:10:25   yeah and home kit has I feel like home kid has been a very weak roll out like I [TS]

02:10:30   think they expected to have more a year ago to offer and I don't know what the [TS]

02:10:36   deal is like I mean it's B it's harder to corral a lot of third parties [TS]

02:10:38   together and Apple didn't want to take center stage and making an ecosystem [TS]

02:10:43   they want to make the hubs which makes sense but it feels I mean USBC is only [TS]

02:10:47   right now starting to hit the mainstream and apple in that case to did not take [TS]

02:10:50   the [TS]

02:10:50   center stage in building ecosystem they built stuff you could plug in and plug [TS]

02:10:55   into and I'm just already only now reviewing some USBC docs for mac world [TS]

02:11:01   that do pass through power and this is the first generation of those that have [TS]

02:11:04   done those are just coming out now year later [TS]

02:11:06   yeah so I think Apple III don't think its ill-advised they shouldn't be [TS]

02:11:10   focused they shouldn't be building a USBC you know extra devices and adapters [TS]

02:11:15   and crafts they should be focused on the court thing they shouldn't be building [TS]

02:11:18   home sensors because that's not they should put the value in the right place [TS]

02:11:21   but I think they're seeing the penalty of the market not sleeping to their to [TS]

02:11:25   their needs [TS]

02:11:26   yeah i think it's the the penalty of when they don't do it all themselves you [TS]

02:11:31   know sometimes nothing happens because it seems like it just seems like home [TS]

02:11:34   kit is one of those things that is now I think all of us have kind of loosely [TS]

02:11:38   filed it under or we really started shifting it towards the whatever [TS]

02:11:42   happened to pile right yeah yeah whatever happened yeah we're under but [TS]

02:11:47   you have these little bits and pieces that comes up but there's nothing [TS]

02:11:50   comprehensive and I'm you know after bugs and s cams and nest thermostats and [TS]

02:11:55   other things like I in some of the security things that are coming out the [TS]

02:12:00   FDC putting action that the other than order against the company that didn't [TS]

02:12:03   sit properly secure its equipment strange how the FTC is getting penalties [TS]

02:12:08   for not securing your devices against intrusion which brings us full circle [TS]

02:12:12   expect the odd thing there that's pretty good guess [TS]

02:12:18   and that you know I guess the other wild card would be if they come out with new [TS]

02:12:20   macbooks of some sort of it's been a year since the 12-inch MacBook so would [TS]

02:12:25   be time but i won [TS]

02:12:27   I don't know I i love line I think i mighta from one of the few but I it's my [TS]

02:12:31   favorite computer since my do 210 I don't love the keyboard I cope with the [TS]

02:12:35   keyboard but I love my do 210 and i think i love this one as much as that in [TS]

02:12:40   between a lot bigger laptops look quite as much titanium I like lat [TS]

02:12:44   well I don't seemed it just seems to me like and i know that i'm just not cute [TS]

02:12:48   into Intel's roadmap like a lot of people and I know that a lot of it hangs [TS]

02:12:52   on that but it just seems like a device that you can kind of knock for being too [TS]

02:12:58   slow [TS]

02:12:59   whatever improvements in 10 years oh yeah [TS]

02:13:02   has gotten in a year would be worth putting out a new revision of the [TS]

02:13:06   product it's true although i laid out like a 400-page book in InDesign on my [TS]

02:13:12   macbook I edit audio in audition adobe audition with multiple tracks i can't do [TS]

02:13:17   real-time effects but it lets me edit at least playback in real time without [TS]

02:13:21   applying all the effects and and I like the dense screen I i wanted to replace [TS]

02:13:24   my hair which was underpowered and didn't have a retina and I want and this [TS]

02:13:28   is the closest thing i get that was like affordable and and met it and I year [TS]

02:13:31   later i'm still pretty delighted with it [TS]

02:13:33   yeah ah well no I will be at the show i'm gonna I don't know the famous last [TS]

02:13:40   words but i might try to do like a mini episode of the show not live from the [TS]

02:13:46   event but maybe record something ad-hoc with any anybody else who's going to be [TS]

02:13:51   there who will give me five or ten minutes of their time sort of a do my [TS]

02:13:54   thoughts and observations on the event right afterwards monday after the phone [TS]

02:13:58   will be a lot of people you know they're I couldn't take seeing a i'm not i'm not [TS]

02:14:02   going on [TS]

02:14:02   seattle i'll be covering remotely from macworld but Susie oaks will be there [TS]

02:14:06   and ok mr. Jason I'm sure and steady Caldwell understand so the the old gang [TS]

02:14:12   will be there in different guises people who are readily volunteer will readily [TS]

02:14:16   volunteer to be on a podcast except that they don't know anything about [TS]

02:14:18   practically talking this is a real stretch for you Jason accept that would [TS]

02:14:22   you would you consider being a doctor he's only easily record I think 15 a [TS]

02:14:26   week now the poor guy [TS]

02:14:28   yeah like a little exaggerated i'm looking forward to it I'd I know it's [TS]

02:14:33   not a blockbuster event but I almost feel like these are the ones that are a [TS]

02:14:36   little they're more interesting strategically to me because the bigger [TS]

02:14:39   ones are a little bit more obvious strategically yeah this will be fun i [TS]

02:14:43   think i love that we don't know for sure as much despite got a leak the fact is [TS]

02:14:48   just not as much means a lot of known but not seen its kind of interesting [TS]

02:14:53   yeah totally Glenn fleischmann anybody who wants to see you're well how I mean [TS]

02:14:59   you know you're everywhere you're at macworld now i have already already like [TS]

02:15:03   for them I you know I've got a book on slack that's coming out soon worse [TS]

02:15:06   indicating it at [TS]

02:15:07   tidbits they have a neat model where the first two chapters are up there now for [TS]

02:15:10   free to its calm about using slack because know a lot of people a lot of [TS]

02:15:14   people your age of mine John they've been told they have to use slack slack [TS]

02:15:18   fun to use but thank you come across people like okay I got to use this new [TS]

02:15:22   tool how does it work and like all right so a first book is about that the first [TS]

02:15:26   two chapters will be out in a few weeks the full book and then also a smaller [TS]

02:15:30   compendium you know I got name-checked is South by Southwest I wasn't there [TS]

02:15:35   people start telling me Stuart Butterfield's mention your name on stage [TS]

02:15:38   like what to do what it says see look what I know starts during passing for [TS]

02:15:43   like 15 years like what did i do just full circle very briefly i'd mention in [TS]

02:15:48   passing Roman Mars the host 9% visible great podcast he said something about [TS]

02:15:52   the future of article reporting a business will be people posting slack [TS]

02:15:57   screen captures right and I respond oh well you know they'll just put [TS]

02:16:01   steganographic pixel identifiers slack will so we take a screen capture will be [TS]

02:16:05   able to identify it [TS]

02:16:07   this is stuart onstage says something like inflation mentions that we're not [TS]

02:16:11   going to do this is like I thank God that was very funny looks like that why [TS]

02:16:14   are being talked about it so that when i say it like it's just saying that they [TS]

02:16:18   will not be inserting a security identifier I did not know you were [TS]

02:16:21   writing a book is like that is fantastic it is a great idea [TS]

02:16:24   it's fun i love it's it's really great and my five slack teams yes so that's [TS]

02:16:30   the but people can read two chapters now and there's more of the book out a few [TS]

02:16:34   weeks but yes one macro by me at tidbits calm and more to come [TS]

02:16:41   and of course a Twitter very quiet seldomly updated at glen with 2 n's f [TS]

02:16:49   account i took two weeks off it was a good break [TS]

02:16:52   I didn't know tweeting for two weeks is really good was it hard it hurt no it [TS]

02:16:57   was actually it's good it's good it's interesting it's at the being on Twitter [TS]

02:17:01   during the political season is very entertaining but i kinda got you know [TS]

02:17:04   backed off a little from now come back i'm enjoying it again Glenn has class [TS]

02:17:08   planets over 400 1431 to do you take a break right at the 400,000 work right I [TS]

02:17:16   did I essentially auctioned off the tweet to raise money for Planned [TS]

02:17:19   Parenthood [TS]

02:17:20   I raised i think people contributed almost three thousand dollars as been [TS]

02:17:23   someone got my four thousand sweet as results that was that was my little [TS]

02:17:27   taking a break [TS]

02:17:28   I just know that right now there's a lot of people we've been gone a long time is [TS]

02:17:31   long so people can tell it's over there like oh come on 400 thousand tweets this [TS]

02:17:34   is when you know these guys are starved for oxygen and now Gruber is getting [TS]

02:17:38   goofy and he's making shit up [TS]

02:17:40   nope i'm telling you right now you could cleanse struck it Alex 101,000 i will [TS]

02:17:46   leave the mass of dividing the number of hours in a day and the number of years [TS]

02:17:50   that Twitter is has existed i will leave that up to you i'll leave it as an [TS]

02:17:54   exercise you fire up p calc on your iPhone and and get Glenn's tweets per [TS]

02:18:00   day out but he's probably too I bet you've tweeted during the show i'll bet [TS]

02:18:03   if I look right now that you've tweeted while we recorded the show I'm withheld [TS]

02:18:07   no star actually a dragon's eyes I'm respectful of your time [TS]

02:18:11   jakis I I'm listening intently slack is driven has taken some light reading [TS]

02:18:17   where you get some of the people i used to communicate with a lot with on [TS]

02:18:19   twitter we now have been slack room so the incompetent work it is absolutely [TS]

02:18:24   understand the real afm as a big chat room there's a lot of podcast networks [TS]

02:18:29   hosts a podcast networks all over the place [TS]

02:18:31   mana one thing i like about slack just for those listening to it's the fact [TS]

02:18:35   that you can use it free with like up to 10,000 people and get most of the [TS]

02:18:38   features is a really amazing freemium model i think they have like like 1.8 [TS]

02:18:43   million of their users are daily users are in that mode like 600,000 paying [TS]

02:18:48   service so yeah most of the black teams under free it's just nice to have a form [TS]

02:18:53   that's private where you can have these discussions well I will make sure to get [TS]

02:18:57   the link to the book in the show notes Glenn thank you for your time [TS]

02:19:01   this is great it's been a great pleasure John thank you very much [TS]

02:19:04   talk to you soon [TS]