The Incomparable

244: The Adventures of Maggie the Mutant


  the incomparable number 244 April 2015 [TS]

  welcome back everybody to the [TS]

  uncomfortable i am your host Jason [TS]

  Snelling we're here for another edition [TS]

  of our comic book club we're talking [TS]

  about to limited series 414 Marvel one [TS]

  from DC they're both from the [TS]

  mid-nineties ish both feature art by [TS]

  alex ross I I stopped reading comics [TS]

  after watchman came out because i [TS]

  thought like suddenly all other comics [TS]

  were just about a a pale imitation of [TS]

  the greatness that was watchman and I i [TS]

  also what was going to college and we [TS]

  wanted to pretend that I wasn't act like [TS]

  I wasn't a comic book reader and I [TS]

  didn't know the detailed history of [TS]

  everybody was in the x-men so I in the [TS]

  mid-nineties i discovered marvels on a [TS]

  bookshelf at a at a bookstore on on the [TS]

  shelf and I saw it and I thought oh wow [TS]

  that looks really cool I'm i bought it [TS]

  and that was essentially my reentry in [TS]

  very slowly but that was my reentry into [TS]

  the comics world and a year or two later [TS]

  I saw kingdom come on the understand at [TS]

  a bookstore and we had bookstores they [TS]

  were still in business back in the 20th [TS]

  century and uh and i bought it two and [TS]

  was a it's a very different kind of [TS]

  story from Marvel's but also really [TS]

  interesting same art obviously in that [TS]

  this is alex ross or at least the same [TS]

  artist and a story the likes of which I [TS]

  did not expect from DC comics so I think [TS]

  these are really interesting books that [TS]

  are from other of a time and their of an [TS]

  artist and I think they're worth talking [TS]

  about and you can pick them up and read [TS]

  them because they're self-contained [TS]

  which is also really nice let me [TS]

  introduce the people who are going to [TS]

  talk about this stuff with me tonight [TS]

  Lisa Schmeisser of course always here [TS]

  for comic book club hi Lisa [TS]

  hi it's a pleasure to be here all we [TS]

  have a big big crowd for this comic book [TS]

  club which is great chipset earth is out [TS]

  there hi chip [TS]

  hi Jason hi Lisa hi everybody this hello [TS]

  Jon boy Monty actually also out there hi [TS]

  Monty hi Jason and Lisa and chip [TS]

  ok let's see if we can do this Moises [TS]

  Sierra Leone is out there [TS]

  I'm boys is Jason how are we going to [TS]

  handle all of the truth and justice in [TS]

  these comics I I can't handle the truth [TS]

  but i can't believe it [TS]

  but if it can happen justice stuff so [TS]

  that's okay and and who did I forget [TS]

  perhaps it's erica inside maybe maybe [TS]

  open right [TS]

  confirmed it is Erica and sign hello [TS]

  hello I'm happy to be here and be your [TS]

  non-expert comic book reader that's a [TS]

  that you know as i read kingdom come [TS]

  and I realized that the footnotes are [TS]

  flying right by me and I can't [TS]

  understand a single one of them i had 1i [TS]

  haven't noticed there's there's a whole [TS]

  set of annotations for kingdom come if [TS]

  you want to read it there's somebody who [TS]

  is painstakingly detailed every panel [TS]

  against every sick so you can get every [TS]

  single one of the younger the easter [TS]

  eggs give you one example that why is [TS]

  there a giant penny in the Batcave [TS]

  well there's a reason i don't care what [TS]

  the reason is there's a reason reversion [TS]

  of the Batcave and lost your mind [TS]

  that was easy it's sugar and spice being [TS]

  in a panel that doesn't make any sense [TS]

  one of the biggest arguments for in the [TS]

  annotations is without them I would not [TS]

  have realized that zan and jayna are now [TS]

  waiters at at the local superhero dive [TS]

  bar or that the village people became [TS]

  and superheroes looking at my 1997 [TS]

  vintage trade paperback of kingdom come [TS]

  doesn't all these these footnotes you're [TS]

  talking about on the internet you have [TS]

  to know it has to [TS]

  yeah you're deciding between your screen [TS]

  and and you're in your trade paperback [TS]

  as it were [TS]

  marvel's house wives yeah yeah yeah its [TS]

  current electricity you really want to [TS]

  nerd out I'm I'd and I don't he said I'd [TS]

  probably about five gasps yes indeed one [TS]

  of the reasons I picked these books for [TS]

  the comic book club is because to me [TS]

  they're kind of the flip side of the [TS]

  same question which is what does it mean [TS]

  to live in a world that has both [TS]

  superpowers drill and immortal people [TS]

  and kingdom come [TS]

  tackles this theme from the angle of [TS]

  what are your rights and [TS]

  responsibilities as a superpower being [TS]

  who are you accountable to and marvels [TS]

  tackles it from the angle of what are [TS]

  your rights and responsibilities as a [TS]

  human being when literally the next [TS]

  generation of sentient beings to walk [TS]

  the earth is is busy bursting into [TS]

  flames or or or being x-men or being [TS]

  spider-man all around you so yes the [TS]

  first time you mentioned both is a crime [TS]

  the old guy pretty much off the [TS]

  protective well there's a lot there's a [TS]

  lot of systematically similar about them [TS]

  but there's enough about their approach [TS]

  that's just different enough because one [TS]

  of the things i find fascinating about [TS]

  kingdom come [TS]

  is how heavily weighed in ross mind back [TS]

  catalogues and use them to create a [TS]

  whole raft of new characters and and [TS]

  they essentially invent like a third of [TS]

  the characters in this book are [TS]

  essentially invented a whole cloth with [TS]

  them extrapolating at these characters [TS]

  had kids without this is what they are [TS]

  whereas in Marvel's it's kind of a love [TS]

  letter to Marvel's creative history and [TS]

  and it ends on I find actually have [TS]

  something faintly unsettling note [TS]

  Oh seriously yeah it's it gives you know [TS]

  if you read the two of them like kingdom [TS]

  comes this real catharsis and and by the [TS]

  end of it you can almost see like a [TS]

  freeze frame and then some nineteen [TS]

  eighties ballot will start the credits [TS]

  begin to roll but like Marvel to get the [TS]

  last two pages and like whole whoa yeah [TS]

  this this is happening that's it that's [TS]

  really i think that's also really [TS]

  implementing of the place that both [TS]

  publishers were when these things were [TS]

  coming out DC has always been you know [TS]

  the the gods among us the hall and [TS]

  wonder that sort of thing [TS]

  marvel's always been grounded in reality [TS]

  grounded in New York and things like [TS]

  that so in in in these comics you've got [TS]

  Marvel's which is all which is basically [TS]

  human humans I've you story and Kingdom [TS]

  Come which is a little bit less so [TS]

  because we've got a lot more scenes with [TS]

  those superheroes and things like that [TS]

  so I i see them as representing what [TS]

  each company was trying to do with their [TS]

  comics at the time just done in this [TS]

  amazingly heightened way that only alex [TS]

  ross can do I mean he's the norman [TS]

  rockwell of comics let's start with [TS]

  Marvel's and we'll talk about about [TS]

  these both intern marble marble skirt [TS]

  boosie boo [TS]

  music music music music rai ziac that [TS]

  will conquer Kurt which its promise okay [TS]

  k stands for quality they busiek and [TS]

  Ross made this this this story that is a [TS]

  beautiful piece of art i would say for [TS]

  one but basically marvels [TS]

  for those who don't know is a [TS]

  essentially it's a retelling of some of [TS]

  the core stories from the early years of [TS]

  the marvel universe as seen through the [TS]

  eyes of a photographer or I of the [TS]

  photography I later at yes uh of a [TS]

  photographer through the lens Wednesday [TS]

  of the photographer who is taking [TS]

  pictures of superhumans and in fact [TS]

  creates a book of his photography called [TS]

  Marvel's group whose cover is a mirror [TS]

  image of the cover that we have on the [TS]

  trade paperback of Marvel's this is a [TS]

  four-issue miniseries from Marvel and [TS]

  it's beautiful and it really is a [TS]

  retelling of these major milestones from [TS]

  the initial emergence of the classic [TS]

  marvel heroes before the marvel universe [TS]

  of the human torch and and the [TS]

  Submariner to the emergence of the [TS]

  Fantastic Four the x-men and spider-man [TS]

  the appearance of Galactus all the way [TS]

  through to the death of Gwen Stacy so [TS]

  it's very much about continuity and [TS]

  comic book history but the idea of [TS]

  weaving all of these wild superhero [TS]

  stories together in art that is that is [TS]

  very realistic and with a with the [TS]

  viewpoint always being that of the [TS]

  humans the normal humans who are living [TS]

  in this in this outsized world and I i [TS]

  think i think we should we should start [TS]

  there I I anybody let's let the artist [TS]

  thing that drew me to it I caught my eye [TS]

  I flipped through it and i bought it and [TS]

  I read it and it is it is beautiful i [TS]

  mean i don't know the history of alex [TS]

  ross although I i can spot his work now [TS]

  because it is alex ross once you've [TS]

  developed by for roster like oh wait [TS]

  there in areas but it is it is [TS]

  spectacular and and his takes on these [TS]

  Marvel these classic marvel heroes i [TS]

  like the fact that all i knew it just [TS]

  enough about marvel that I knew what [TS]

  these stories were and I could recognize [TS]

  the people a but you know only the broad [TS]

  strokes and then he's telling us the [TS]

  details from this one character's [TS]

  perspective one of the things I really [TS]

  love about the art is how insanely [TS]

  period-specific he is because he moves [TS]

  all the way from the late thirties to [TS]

  the late 1960s [TS]

  and he's following the same group of [TS]

  characters and you can see the clothes [TS]

  begin to shift over time since you can [TS]

  see how hairdo shift the protagonist [TS]

  wife especially they do a wonderful job [TS]

  moving her from being a war bride to a [TS]

  polyester pantsuit cloud housewife of [TS]

  the nineteen seventies and it's it's [TS]

  plausible and it's believable and you [TS]

  can see the ghost of the woman she was [TS]

  in the thirties and forties so I love [TS]

  that are one of the biggest easter eggs [TS]

  in my opinion in his art is if you look [TS]

  at gwen stacy it seems to be modeled [TS]

  after the actress Sheryl Lee and its [TS]

  lower Pole [TS]

  yeah it's laura palmer and there's a lot [TS]

  of Laura Palmer image imagery especially [TS]

  when she's got the water following [TS]

  hundred face and she's smiling and she's [TS]

  on the world and what I always enjoys [TS]

  how seamlessly he he weaves in people [TS]

  who he whose faces he's obviously [TS]

  inspired by and how he can age people up [TS]

  to age them down and put them in a wide [TS]

  variety of different situations it's [TS]

  just a beautiful book to look at you get [TS]

  Edwin Newman in there a one-point which [TS]

  also makes me laugh NBC News anchor [TS]

  Edwin Newman I one of the things that I [TS]

  i find fascinating about marbles is you [TS]

  know that they have this is sliding [TS]

  timescale thing that happens in [TS]

  comic-book continuity Marvel's premise [TS]

  is when the comics written is when [TS]

  things happened [TS]

  yeah and so it is a locked in time the [TS]

  they all emerged in the sixties 45 to [TS]

  set the Submariner and one regular [TS]

  originally namely the timely comics [TS]

  right you're 30 and 40 and then they [TS]

  have to America story from world war two [TS]

  and then everything else from the marvel [TS]

  universe was in that the Lenalee Kirby [TS]

  did coke period in the sixties and then [TS]

  forward forward into the early seventies [TS]

  and that's the so it's all period piece [TS]

  which i really like i like the idea that [TS]

  they're like this is when the stories to [TS]

  resist a history there's no great [TS]

  economy exactly we're gonna tell it like [TS]

  like it is and in the in the back matter [TS]

  he a music it imagines that you know [TS]

  this is all happening simultaneously and [TS]

  he said as he did the research he [TS]

  realized he could weave this stuff [TS]

  together as if it was all happening [TS]

  simultaneously which is kind of a neat [TS]

  neat trick but anyway that not not to [TS]

  not to derail what you were saying Lisa [TS]

  but i just-i I think the period detail [TS]

  is fantastic and and the fact that it's [TS]

  based on when these stories were told [TS]

  that these are 60 [TS]

  stories happening in the sixties not you [TS]

  know mapped into the nineties or [TS]

  something like they could have been I i [TS]

  think that's really important actually [TS]

  and it reflects it actually reflects the [TS]

  way marvel comics was back when these [TS]

  stories were being produced because the [TS]

  sliding timescale came in later and but [TS]

  initially they were almost doing [TS]

  storytelling in real time Peter Parker's [TS]

  a sophomore in high school when amazing [TS]

  fantasy comes out and then a couple of [TS]

  years later he's graduated from high [TS]

  school in real-time practically and then [TS]

  somewhere along the way I think they [TS]

  decided that it's time to get it's time [TS]

  to go with the simpsons model it's time [TS]

  to say that everything that fantastic [TS]

  four number-one happened 10 or 15 years [TS]

  ago regardless of wind right but yeah [TS]

  your point your point is great Jason [TS]

  that this is this is a love letter not [TS]

  only to the old Marvel stories but to [TS]

  the way the old Marvel stories were told [TS]

  something important historically in the [TS]

  the world of music is that this was [TS]

  really his big breakout work as a writer [TS]

  he had been an editor for Marvel writing [TS]

  for Marvel Age which is something that I [TS]

  love picking up back issues of when I [TS]

  was a kid and in in doing the process of [TS]

  the research for this project I think [TS]

  foundationally a lot of what he would [TS]

  bring to other projects like his runs on [TS]

  Avengers and various things that he [TS]

  saved from the clutches of the Marvel [TS]

  bankruptcy era when it was really [TS]

  circling the drain creatively and [TS]

  financially a lot of as big of a comics [TS]

  lovers he already was feelin Marvel's as [TS]

  a historical project is something that [TS]

  really they're really opened up the [TS]

  possibilities what he would be able to [TS]

  do as a creative going beyond the [TS]

  editorial roller marvel it's easy to say [TS]

  but both of these things but especially [TS]

  marvels is it's a love letter continuity [TS]

  you could you could even do ride it as [TS]

  being continuity porn it is literally [TS]

  like what if we stitched everything [TS]

  together and sew it all happen at once [TS]

  but the great thing is you don't have to [TS]

  know all the cognitive it stands by [TS]

  itself though so I'm [TS]

  not so sure about that it's got great [TS]

  bones though because so many of the [TS]

  classic panels turn out to have been [TS]

  pictures he took yeah that's true it is [TS]

  a beautiful conceit right having of the [TS]

  this be the chronicler of the Marvel [TS]

  Universe and him having these amazing [TS]

  shot those are great moment where he [TS]

  scoffs at Peter Parker the stupid kid [TS]

  photographers yeah yeah yeah stupid mean [TS]

  pictures that's better than a couple [TS]

  times [TS]

  oh yeah he rolls his eyes at youngjae [TS]

  jonah Jameson for saying when i run the [TS]

  bugle yeah-yeah-yeah-yeah-yeah so Erica [TS]

  had you read this before and do you have [TS]

  much background in the stuff for you [TS]

  somebody who is coming to a a [TS]

  celebration of continuity from a place [TS]

  of not really knowing the continuity got [TS]

  that last one yeah it was ok so so tell [TS]

  me about that i've read a very few very [TS]

  few issues of things in the Marvel [TS]

  Universe but i think it was that must [TS]

  have been all stuff that was either not [TS]

  included here after this because i think [TS]

  i read some powers and yeah this is and [TS]

  all of alias which i loved i think this [TS]

  i think this story essential with other [TS]

  than the last couple of pages the story [TS]

  essentially ends with Gwen Stacy guys [TS]

  that's like what 1974 something like [TS]

  that that that's about right [TS]

  if it's your only off by maybe a year [TS]

  yeah it is really it's the early to [TS]

  mid-70s oh it's a long time ago when the [TS]

  story kind of grinds to a halt [TS]

  so whatever the day three so what did [TS]

  you think of my knowledge [TS]

  you know you can't live in the United [TS]

  States for most of your life without [TS]

  picking up and kind of knowing who some [TS]

  of these characters are so I had heard [TS]

  of the human torch and I know that the [TS]

  Fantastic Four is a thing but i have no [TS]

  idea who those four are or what they do [TS]

  of course that's fantastic though we'll [TS]

  we'll which human torture you told me [TS]

  yes there's the originally they were due [TS]

  to human torch's well I know about this [TS]

  one because that's the 1i read [TS]

  previously i had heard the words human [TS]

  and torch put together but that's about [TS]

  it [TS]

  so you didn't notice that there were in [TS]

  fact two different human torch's just in [TS]

  Marvel's this is true home meet okay not [TS]

  the synthetic human torch at the [TS]

  beginning is not the same as the one [TS]

  who's in the Fantastic Four believe it [TS]

  or not [TS]

  and I guess I didn't even really catch [TS]

  that there was it now [TS]

  ok now it's coming back to me that there [TS]

  was a human torch in fantastic four so [TS]

  so Erica doesn't did this story makes [TS]

  sense at all did it was a pocket of to [TS]

  you or was it just like a i'm really [TS]

  curious or ordered it being no sense and [TS]

  was kind of pointless so what how would [TS]

  you get out of it it made great sense to [TS]

  me [TS]

  i I've totally understood i I don't I [TS]

  know that I didn't catch every last [TS]

  little bit and piece you guys got way [TS]

  more depth out of it than I did but even [TS]

  just on the surface it is it is a [TS]

  beautifully told story and it's got that [TS]

  thing that I just love even if i don't [TS]

  know a property I still sometimes just [TS]

  like dipping into the celebratory works [TS]

  of that property so anniversary special [TS]

  of something like when I was young and [TS]

  watching the five doctors i had no idea [TS]

  about most of the stuff that happened in [TS]

  the thing 25 years prepped for 20 years [TS]

  previous to that but i still really love [TS]

  the heck out of it because it was clear [TS]

  that there is a bunch of history that i [TS]

  didn't know about yet and that [TS]

  tantalizes me and makes me more [TS]

  interested in a work so i could tell [TS]

  that there were plenty of gaps in my [TS]

  knowledge but it was just this great [TS]

  sort of nostalgic hug to marvel in [TS]

  general and that just it made me feel [TS]

  warm and fuzzy like i was i was coming [TS]

  into something really late but it was [TS]

  something where everybody is celebrating [TS]

  and I just wanted to be in on the party [TS]

  well I'm coming from that at this from [TS]

  almost the exact opposite perspective [TS]

  when i was when i was really in the [TS]

  Marvel Comics I was painfully into [TS]

  marvel comics I was a footnote reader i [TS]

  was a subscriber to marvel saga Marvel [TS]

  saga which was a series that was [TS]

  basically text pieces with isolated [TS]

  panels that tried to tell the history of [TS]

  every single marvel comic ever produced [TS]

  and putting them all in story [TS]

  chronological order so i should be prime [TS]

  I should be the prime audience for [TS]

  Marvel's because it basically is like [TS]

  Marvel saga with a story i have [TS]

  recovered somewhat uh it's yeah I I was [TS]

  not I did not see I did not seek out the [TS]

  footnotes for either of these of [TS]

  I'm rereading them and I remember how [TS]

  much I used to care about the cottony [TS]

  continuity details of the submariners [TS]

  latest attack on New York and things [TS]

  like that and i think that Marvel's [TS]

  probably relies on that continuity a [TS]

  little too much for my taste [TS]

  I didn't get the same nostalgic feeling [TS]

  that Erica had I was I was like okay I'm [TS]

  a little separated from this stuff now [TS]

  is this hitting me emotionally and it [TS]

  didn't quite so much anymore and i think [TS]

  it relies a little bit on that sort of [TS]

  love the Marvel Universe more than it [TS]

  should interesting so it don't tell me [TS]

  more about that i mean i hit me just [TS]

  right where I think I feel like I knew [TS]

  just enough without knowing enough with [TS]

  the footnote details that it just kind [TS]

  of washed over me and I felt that same [TS]

  kind of warm fuzzy feeling is Erica [TS]

  where I'm like oh yes these are like I [TS]

  konechno Galactus and spider-man and [TS]

  Gwen Stacy and all of that without like [TS]

  marinating in the details a minute maybe [TS]

  maybe it's just because I knew too much [TS]

  and I was embarrassed by it because if i [TS]

  had forgotten that I knew who Betty Dene [TS]

  was Betty Dene the girlfriend of the [TS]

  Submariner back in the day and then she [TS]

  shows up again and I remember and I i'm [TS]

  actually I'm actually a little [TS]

  embarrassed that I know who she was and [TS]

  I'm embarrassed that I'm being fan [TS]

  serviced this podcast is over [TS]

  no no I i had Jerry you chip no III is [TS]

  not being a comic book fan is I i am [TS]

  amazed at at the level of detail I i [TS]

  searched for the kingdom come [TS]

  annotations which are out there and I [TS]

  search for Marvel's annotations because [TS]

  they're actually footnotes in the back [TS]

  and there is a marvel sanitation don't [TS]

  Google the marbles annotation on the [TS]

  internet challenges it's a terrible it's [TS]

  like worse than the one that's in the [TS]

  book there's like yeah I guess there's [TS]

  some stuff from the old Marvel honestly [TS]

  have no idea what's going on so I come [TS]

  on Marvel fans up your game a little bit [TS]

  but but the footnotes and marvels pretty [TS]

  good but they're both wrote that there [TS]

  is a layer to both of these things that [TS]

  is going to reward the gigantic nerd who [TS]

  remembers all that continuity and knows [TS]

  that oh that's a reference to that and I [TS]

  i think that's one of the questions [TS]

  about both of these is can they be [TS]

  enjoyed as works on their own air [TS]

  it seems to say yes oh and and what ship [TS]

  says I almost am starting to wonder now [TS]

  if they can be enjoyed more if you don't [TS]

  know too much about them versus not [TS]

  enough which is make sorry to maybe [TS]

  maybe there's a middle ground actually [TS]

  maybe maybe it works for Erica because [TS]

  she's not been introduced to the [TS]

  minutiae maybe it works for somebody [TS]

  who's still marinating it in it and then [TS]

  there's me sort of in this ambivalent [TS]

  middle stage and i'm having trouble [TS]

  following the story of Phil Sheldon and [TS]

  all that stuff because I'm really [TS]

  engaging with this continuity that used [TS]

  to be important to me and it's not if I [TS]

  could throw in a weird [TS]

  middle middle ground I discovered [TS]

  Marvel's in 1994 as as a youth as a [TS]

  youth I don't know how what is [TS]

  yeah you know one of these miscreants [TS]

  youths it's historically in the world of [TS]

  Marvel events and cool things and all [TS]

  that kind of stuff [TS]

  it follows the trilogy of infinity [TS]

  crossovers Infinity Gauntlet definitely [TS]

  infinity war infinity crusade and I was [TS]

  getting heavily into comics around then [TS]

  and confused by a bunch of that kind of [TS]

  stuff i like some of it and other parts [TS]

  of it drove me totally crazy and then [TS]

  when I got to Marvel's there was stuff [TS]

  that rang a little bit familiar there [TS]

  were bits and pieces of things I you [TS]

  know I knew who the Submariner was I [TS]

  didn't know that much about him I knew [TS]

  he existed and he had wings on his feet [TS]

  and a super-powered speedo I knew about [TS]

  spider-man I knew about various [TS]

  characters that that show up but then [TS]

  there were others like I i eventually [TS]

  figured out and I was confused at first [TS]

  too i thought there was just the one [TS]

  human torch but no there were two human [TS]

  torch's and then I wanted to know about [TS]

  this first human torch i never heard [TS]

  about and I want to know about this [TS]

  character in that character that I've [TS]

  never heard about and it was also get [TS]

  this itself was alex ross his big break [TS]

  into comics coming from a background of [TS]

  the mother is a commercial artist and [TS]

  himself admiring the living daylights [TS]

  out of people like George Peres who by [TS]

  then was very well-known [TS]

  44 work on on both the both the actual [TS]

  actually at that time I think was mostly [TS]

  DC stuff it would come later that his [TS]

  big Marvel Avengers stuff would come [TS]

  that burning rights and he was big fan [TS]

  of bernie wrightson to he was he was [TS]

  influenced by both the commercial art [TS]

  Norman Rockwell side of things as well [TS]

  as the pop art comic-book sort of thing [TS]

  and in the way that this red introduced [TS]

  a a different feel for comics language [TS]

  that people were used to wear it was [TS]

  lineart with splash color and here there [TS]

  is there is this greater the depth to [TS]

  the imagery there was this piano [TS]

  painterly quality to it that I just have [TS]

  never seen I hadn't read Watchmen at [TS]

  this point even though [TS]

  yeah it had been out for almost 10 years [TS]

  marvel's for me redefined what I [TS]

  conceived as possible within the [TS]

  comic-book form and I think this is what [TS]

  it was this around the time that that [TS]

  Scott McLeod's understanding comics came [TS]

  out I think it's a little earlier than [TS]

  that that was no understand comics was [TS]

  93 so this is what a cone or is Right [TS]

  couple yeah this is yeah this is [TS]

  actually this was 94 94 was Marvel so [TS]

  this is just the year after and I [TS]

  remember I remember rather clearly [TS]

  around the same general hazy time in my [TS]

  past discovery marvels and Kingdom calm [TS]

  and understanding comics all in the same [TS]

  breath and I was then then I I gained my [TS]

  full powers as the nerd in high school [TS]

  saying no there is a greater level at [TS]

  which comics can tell stories that's [TS]

  like AP comics is what you did there you [TS]

  just said to the entire curriculum for [TS]

  AP comics Advanced Placement common sure [TS]

  i read this stuff about how mark waid [TS]

  who wrote the other one studying comics [TS]

  character back stories and righting [TS]

  himself file cards as a kid and he had [TS]

  these no card boxes full of stuff that [TS]

  he actually pulled from with his new [TS]

  shield series that's out there and I [TS]

  found myself doing a less dedicated [TS]

  version of that mark was the a student I [TS]

  was the like b+ b-minus student [TS]

  ok so I the effort for me it it it [TS]

  engendered this hunger for finding out [TS]

  who all these characters were and I [TS]

  didn't have the benefit of footnotes [TS]

  with [TS]

  with either one of these so it was kind [TS]

  of limited to what I could find at the [TS]

  comic shop or what I could ask the guy [TS]

  with the ready ponytail to show me that [TS]

  he would ensue [TS]

  well I don't know if you really want to [TS]

  read the half and then you'd actually go [TS]

  pull off the shelf or so for me what it [TS]

  is I think what did as somebody who had [TS]

  sort of stopped reading comics is it [TS]

  brought I felt like it [TS]

  it allowed me to let go of the details [TS]

  of the you know ins and outs of we of [TS]

  monthly comics that had sort of [TS]

  frustrated me and take a step back and [TS]

  look at the bigger picture of these [TS]

  iconic stories these things that were [TS]

  just part of the if you read Marvel [TS]

  Comics part of the kind of collective [TS]

  unconscious of marvel that like [TS]

  everybody knew Galactus you know the [TS]

  fantastic 4 etcetera etcetera everybody [TS]

  knew back when Stacy and it all just [TS]

  sort of it happened in the past but it [TS]

  was all there and just to see it [TS]

  portrayed like this it actually made me [TS]

  realize that I had a great deal of [TS]

  affection for this stuff and even though [TS]

  i had sort of put aside and said no no [TS]

  I'm not gonna do that stuff anymore it [TS]

  made me rediscover our a reservoir of [TS]

  love for comics that i didn't realize i [TS]

  still had it for the end for these [TS]

  stories and for the the big picture of [TS]

  it and i think that's how it impacted me [TS]

  I wanted to ask all of you about and [TS]

  this this is also something that [TS]

  attaches to kingdom come [TS]

  the idea behind marvels is at its core a [TS]

  human's I view of super super humans [TS]

  what was it like to be a person watching [TS]

  a world where we're super people walk [TS]

  the earth and on that level I I find it [TS]

  fascinating there that that's that shot [TS]

  of Galactus towering over the city on [TS]

  that on that is that it's a single i'm [TS]

  not sure if it's a single or spread but [TS]

  it is a spectacular piece of art that [TS]

  short sleeves in all [TS]

  yeah well is just uh amazing and there's [TS]

  that there's a spread with the kind of [TS]

  fire in the sky is Galactus arrives and [TS]

  they don't understand what's going on [TS]

  and there's yeah it's a single page of [TS]

  just Galactus towering over everything [TS]

  and you know in my mind that is what [TS]

  Marvel's is about it is about wee wee [TS]

  all the other comics take the main [TS]

  characters being super humans marvels is [TS]

  about the humans looking at the super [TS]

  humans and and an army in our main [TS]

  character loving them and following them [TS]

  and eventually kind of as some of us do [TS]

  when we read comics for a long time [TS]

  getting tired of them and feeling sort [TS]

  of disaffected like they've seen this [TS]

  story before I I you know I i I'm [TS]

  fascinated by Monty you have you you've [TS]

  been you've been kind of quiet you have [TS]

  any thoughts about the humans I view of [TS]

  Marvel's that's what i think is the [TS]

  coolest part of Marvel's is that it [TS]

  portrays will try to portray what it's [TS]

  like to live in a world where a you're [TS]

  having to rebuild the city all the time [TS]

  because as soon as one gigantic threat [TS]

  from outer space it is pushed away [TS]

  another one shows up and I like my [TS]

  favorite part in it is the moment when [TS]

  the narrator whose name I can't pull [TS]

  right now Phil then I love a little [TS]

  Sheldon will just when the sheldon is [TS]

  explaining why his marbles book should [TS]

  be published which is see how excited [TS]

  everybody here in New York is to see the [TS]

  human torch in the distance [TS]

  imagine the people in peoria never see [TS]

  this at all right and is trying to [TS]

  picture a world where you're seeing the [TS]

  superheroes all the time I think that's [TS]

  really interesting and it's something [TS]

  heard music went on to do i think even [TS]

  more interestingly in more detail with [TS]

  Astro City there's a there's a page [TS]

  where in the background there there i [TS]

  think it might even be when he's talking [TS]

  to the editor who's sort of turning him [TS]

  down to the book it but definitely there [TS]

  are there are a few of these things wear [TS]

  out the window there are just flying [TS]

  people passing by like on their way [TS]

  somewhere or to a fight or fighting or [TS]

  whatever but it it it's somewhat subtly [TS]

  simple message that this is a world [TS]

  where you know you look at your window [TS]

  and there's people flying by because [TS]

  there are super people everywhere [TS]

  yeah and I just like say that although i [TS]

  think Alex crosses are is beautiful and [TS]

  i can't imagine how long this thing took [TS]

  to create [TS]

  aight with every panel being an oil [TS]

  painting [TS]

  sometimes I feel like his art is a [TS]

  little static like it doesn't really [TS]

  look like people are moving but here it [TS]

  works because so much of it is a [TS]

  photographer's view right yet it's [TS]

  supposed to be a still shot of giant man [TS]

  posing up there right since he uses so [TS]

  much photographic reference which if you [TS]

  get the trade paperback you can see the [TS]

  examples of it it does feel sometimes [TS]

  like you're watching you know it you're [TS]

  looking at a photograph [TS]

  yeah and if you talk about scott mccloud [TS]

  I mean there's the the idea of the [TS]

  impression of movement between panels [TS]

  and in this I think you're right it [TS]

  works because this is a story about a [TS]

  still photographer and so yeah sort of [TS]

  the conceit is you know we're seeing [TS]

  still moments from dynamic if they ask [TS]

  and there's also this heightened not the [TS]

  sort of heightened realism more so than [TS]

  in kingdom come on if you look at the [TS]

  superhero costumes in Marvel's you see [TS]

  all the wrinkles yes my name is Michael [TS]

  spiderman spiderman looks almost [TS]

  amateurish which makes kind of sense [TS]

  it's a teenager who sewed his own [TS]

  costume and things like that there is [TS]

  something about this art that is not [TS]

  just static but it is almost hyper [TS]

  representational yeah and I sometimes I [TS]

  want that and sometimes I want you know [TS]

  Bruce Timm or mike pair of X Batman [TS]

  adventures you know that sort of thing [TS]

  yeah where you where you at the [TS]

  simplicity the other end of the scott [TS]

  mccloud spectrum but for this this is [TS]

  great [TS]

  yeah I feel like his art is beautiful [TS]

  not necessarily dynamic but in this [TS]

  context it's perfect [TS]

  I do feel in kingdom come could stand to [TS]

  be a little more dynamic it still looks [TS]

  like they're posing have been here for [TS]

  me and it helped to help to ratchet up [TS]

  the nostalgia factor because in a way i [TS]

  felt like i was looking through a photo [TS]

  album the history of the life of Marvel [TS]

  it really is a genius concede to have it [TS]

  through the eyes of photographer because [TS]

  it's so perfectly fits the style of the [TS]

  art and the composition of the frames [TS]

  it's it's just a lovely way to reinforce [TS]

  that all the way through it also does a [TS]

  great job of covering the fact that this [TS]

  is his first [TS]

  sequential art work of you know of this [TS]

  scale or anything anything remotely this [TS]

  epic in scope you know beyond a little [TS]

  bit of work that he had done and I I you [TS]

  know call me controversial the arts [TS]

  beautiful controversial am you want to [TS]

  thank you thank you i will accept my [TS]

  plot its its its iconic and the thing [TS]

  that that number of us are pointing to [TS]

  is it's not particularly dynamic there [TS]

  are some really amazing shots within [TS]

  this their memorable but looking back on [TS]

  it and i've ever visited a couple of [TS]

  times over the years there there are [TS]

  very few bits that really are just [TS]

  indelible in my mind there more of those [TS]

  i would say with kingdom common as time [TS]

  goes on [TS]

  there's still the painterly the single [TS]

  snapshot kind of field to the way that [TS]

  his visual storytelling works but you [TS]

  know it does evolve and get a little bit [TS]

  more dynamic a little bit more to where [TS]

  you you feel the illusion of the [TS]

  sequential are moving you forward much [TS]

  more pronounced and stuff like Earth X [TS]

  number of years later but if if anything [TS]

  i have my friends who say oh man alex [TS]

  ross i just wish Alex Ross would do [TS]

  everything I don't I think there's a [TS]

  very specific type of storytelling that [TS]

  his art is very beautifully attuned to [TS]

  like this like these massively oversized [TS]

  single prestige edition things that DC [TS]

  did they did one for Superman they [TS]

  didn't refer Batman they do refreshes am [TS]

  that is some of the best shows Mr that's [TS]

  ever been done [TS]

  they did a really great Wonder Woman 12 [TS]

  i think there might have been one or two [TS]

  others [TS]

  this I think is is a great encapsulation [TS]

  of if if this type of storytelling is [TS]

  good for you then the things that alex [TS]

  ross art is on is the sort of thing that [TS]

  you can take but i don't think any of us [TS]

  can can really necessarily go man I [TS]

  remember entire pages of this art the [TS]

  way that we do something with dave [TS]

  gibbons are from watchmen well I can but [TS]

  on [TS]

  you only a pet only because there's [TS]

  panels that's an entire page that I [TS]

  happen to like that panel right like he [TS]

  does a good splash panel [TS]

  I don't know I've had a lot of effort [TS]

  kingdom come a few times and so there's [TS]

  a few panels i remember pretty [TS]

  explicitly just because the imagery [TS]

  struck me one way around here I'm saying [TS]

  I'm saying Marvel specifically well not [TS]

  as much as kingdom come [TS]

  the giant man shot i think but again [TS]

  that's because it's a giant panel hug [TS]

  when Stacy holding her face up yeah [TS]

  right to the in the rain with her hands [TS]

  up around her up its that's and just the [TS]

  quality of life in that panel is is [TS]

  practically translucent and every time I [TS]

  see it I'm just struck and how he [TS]

  managed to capture the experience of the [TS]

  Sun shower [TS]

  yeah that though the ones that he sells [TS]

  giclee prints for a giant pile of money [TS]

  at San Diego of like those though [TS]

  they're there much fewer of those and [TS]

  morals than there are in kingdom come [TS]

  Thy I feel like I feel like with [TS]

  Marvel's every panel is essentially a [TS]

  cover and the kingdom come I feel like [TS]

  he dialed it back a little bit and it's [TS]

  a little more it feels a little more [TS]

  sequential but I don't mind that [TS]

  actually think maybe I prefer it but I [TS]

  think Marvel is the perfect place for [TS]

  that right [TS]

  the whole idea of Marvel's is everything [TS]

  is happy that is happening that we are [TS]

  showing you is iconic this is the photo [TS]

  album [TS]

  that's exactly right of that I want to [TS]

  mention by the way that there's that [TS]

  there's that scene where Phil is in the [TS]

  Daily Bugle office and spider-man climbs [TS]

  up the outside the building and that's [TS]

  that's the moment where you see him [TS]

  close up and he's got the kind of [TS]

  wrinkly outfit and I remember that was [TS]

  the first time after years of reading [TS]

  spider-man from when I was a little kid [TS]

  that I thought experiments costume is [TS]

  kind of weird because like this is at a [TS]

  realistic depiction of it and it's [TS]

  problematic and I remember thinking of [TS]

  this very panel when I went and saw the [TS]

  toby mcwire spider-man in 2002 and end [TS]

  and noticed how they tried to deal with [TS]

  how you depicted actual human being [TS]

  wearing the spider-man costume because [TS]

  it's kind of hard and it is kinda not [TS]

  again that's why i like the x-men was [TS]

  like we'll put them in leather jackets [TS]

  forget about the costumes and and it [TS]

  really worked for me in that Bay in it [TS]

  which is kinda fast because it's trying [TS]

  to apply some real world [TS]

  textures and physics to these things [TS]

  that were so totally not that and that's [TS]

  why I think Marvel's work so well as a [TS]

  comic book entirely composed of of [TS]

  covers essentially one of the [TS]

  interesting mood things that he did it [TS]

  was the first time that I remember [TS]

  seeing the x-men and finding them kind [TS]

  of terrifying and they were directed as [TS]

  monsters all me yeah i mean that this is [TS]

  glowing red devil Hugh who in the first [TS]

  appearance of the x-men in Marvel [TS]

  signers never look creepier than marble [TS]

  yeah and that valuable because I've [TS]

  always thought that's one of the weakest [TS]

  parts of the x-men that they're in a [TS]

  world with the Fantastic Four and the [TS]

  Submariner and all these other [TS]

  superheroes and spider-man but mutants [TS]

  are feared yeah what do you care if I [TS]

  guys a mutant or got it from cosmic rays [TS]

  or gamma radiation [TS]

  yeah it for us the comic reader it makes [TS]

  the the anti-mutant hysteria and the [TS]

  riding and all that stuff seemed [TS]

  absolutely nonsensical and I think [TS]

  that's I think that's part of the point [TS]

  a story the characters look exactly the [TS]

  same unless you get the until they're [TS]

  bathed in the light and all that other [TS]

  was your backstory tell you did you were [TS]

  bitten by something with their array of [TS]

  some sort or were you just born this way [TS]

  if you're born this way we hate you if [TS]

  it was a ray you're fine it's fine but [TS]

  then I think that Marvel's did a pretty [TS]

  good job of under of explaining why [TS]

  people are feeling that way with her gut [TS]

  reaction because if it's a genetic [TS]

  change those mere be clearly the one [TS]

  yeah they're going to be taking over the [TS]

  world whereas if it's just a good old [TS]

  you know he was being got some some [TS]

  superpowers they're going to protect [TS]

  other human beings with there's still [TS]

  one of us in an amazingly gutsy thing [TS]

  that music does in this story is he has [TS]

  phil Sheldon pick up a brick and hit [TS]

  Iceman and has with Elijah he is he is [TS]

  part of his part of the right i think [TS]

  that scene happens and x-men like one or [TS]

  2i might be imagining that but I think [TS]

  he's done like a flash man where he is [TS]

  inserted his character into a [TS]

  pre-existing seen i'm pretty sure that [TS]

  is the case the memory is fuzzy but that [TS]

  sounds right and she and feel shame for [TS]

  it [TS]

  Sheldon is no saint in this in this [TS]

  story not like not like Norman McCay [TS]

  Shelton is literally every man he's got [TS]

  his good parts bigotries Sheldon has to [TS]

  have to make peace with the fact that he [TS]

  was a big it out of fear at some point [TS]

  yeah yeah I i do enjoy a lot the fact [TS]

  that they find a the mutant girl and [TS]

  they take her in and then the fact that [TS]

  she then runs off that was hard and [TS]

  there's no and there's no real [TS]

  resolution to that she runs off [TS]

  yeah she's not a famous character or [TS]

  anything so you don't know what happened [TS]

  it's actually called back to an [TS]

  excellent story from the nineteen [TS]

  sixties i believe and unfortunately i [TS]

  can't remember if the story ends with [TS]

  the child killed by a mob and the x-men [TS]

  get to her too late or if they rescue [TS]

  her in the nick of time but that child [TS]

  that was in the basement is actually [TS]

  meant to be a famous mutant type thing [TS]

  and and obviously an analogue for the [TS]

  civil rights movement at the same time [TS]

  to where the question is what kind of [TS]

  people persecuted child just because [TS]

  they look different [TS]

  Maggie mutant has a has a has a page on [TS]

  has a wicked Marvel wikipedia Marvel [TS]

  wiki page lyrics so apparently we did we [TS]

  did she did she did have other adventure [TS]

  after she left those buildings a the [TS]

  basement the adventures of Maggie the [TS]

  mighty mutant yeah i don't think coming [TS]

  after secret wars 2015 now exactly uh [TS]

  the the one thing that i read into this [TS]

  story and I don't know how intentional [TS]

  it was but I remember a lot of [TS]

  commentary over the years about the than [TS]

  day that Gwen Stacy died being a real [TS]

  turning point for Marvel and Marvel [TS]

  publishing and I see the I read this [TS]

  story as a bit of a criticism of where [TS]

  the comic-book storytelling has gone [TS]

  since the time of the marvels Gwen Stacy [TS]

  dies that breaks Phil shelled and and [TS]

  he's through he's through with Marvel's [TS]

  and through that and then this wonderful [TS]

  last page where he where he encounters a [TS]

  nice normal ordinary boy Danny catch the [TS]

  second heroes right [TS]

  who is one of the most aggressively [TS]

  nineties aggressively effed up [TS]

  commercial and if you take our pictures [TS]

  with young mr. catch here a nice normal [TS]

  ordinary boy that's actually pretty darn [TS]

  cutting yeah no that's nice but I look [TS]

  it up I was like I bet that kid ended up [TS]

  being something horrible i looked like [TS]

  that okay yeah i'm a big fan of the [TS]

  garage of meaningless cameos yes my [TS]

  favorite to our bill lumpkin who's [TS]

  laying around willy lumpkin the mailman [TS]

  and ask for yeah he's great he's dating [TS]

  Phil's girl when phil has could like [TS]

  reluctance to marry in a world with [TS]

  Marvel's and so I guess you like it [TS]

  going to waggle this year's I wonder [TS]

  stupid Willie lumpkin I just love that [TS]

  they went to the trouble of calling that [TS]

  guy out and also for some reason Popeye [TS]

  is in this really yes vision an issue 11 [TS]

  of the characters that is just being [TS]

  interviewed is clearly pie is not a [TS]

  Squinkie I and a corncob pipe nice [TS]

  there are there a couple of follow-up [TS]

  pieces that I i I'll of mentioning this [TS]

  kind of stuff [TS]

  partly especially in this case because [TS]

  one of them is is kind of a well it's a [TS]

  warren ellis book and I love everything [TS]

  warren ellis does everything he destroys [TS]

  and in a few years later I actually [TS]

  might have been the next year [TS]

  Warren Ellis did a book called ruins was [TS]

  a to issue thing that was basically a [TS]

  parody of Marvel's Phil Sheldon's back [TS]

  once again and but everything is going [TS]

  terribly wrong like it the the first [TS]

  issue has Captain America Iron Man [TS]

  spider-man and the Hulk and like all the [TS]

  heroes laying all a Kimbo on the ground [TS]

  you know it beating the crap but it's [TS]

  basically Marvel's but totally dystopian [TS]

  and and i love it its it's kind of [TS]

  insane and I feel like nobody remembers [TS]

  that it exists of the Amazon reviews are [TS]

  merciless oh it's because people love [TS]

  Marvel so much ruins just ruins it for [TS]

  some people and now they did they did a [TS]

  proper quote-unquote sequel featuring [TS]

  the art of uh a painter style artist [TS]

  that i'm a big fan of from books that he [TS]

  worked on that I'm sure that if i look [TS]

  back on them now they're probably was [TS]

  not much substance in there at all but [TS]

  Jay anacleto did Marvel's i have the [TS]

  camera again written by Kurt music and [TS]

  again Phil Sheldon is back with a [TS]

  vengeance and so care about Phil Sheldon [TS]

  I don't decide I look I think it's great [TS]

  that there's an every man who frames the [TS]

  story because it does come when you get [TS]

  to find out what happened Aggie know I [TS]

  care more about fulfillment i do about [TS]

  what's his name who's not even a [TS]

  character in kingdom come [TS]

  uh-huh mhm I want to take a moment for [TS]

  an elseworlds tail imagine a world a [TS]

  dark world full of spam viruses bounced [TS]

  email this is the world of kingdom come [TS]

  oh and also our world let's also imagine [TS]

  a world without spam viruses or bounced [TS]

  email this is the dream of Phil Shelton [TS]

  in Marvel's maybe but if he is dreaming [TS]

  that he's dreaming about mail route who [TS]

  is sponsoring this episode of the [TS]

  uncomfortable mail route stops that evil [TS]

  stuff the spam viruses and bounced email [TS]

  from reaching your inbox indeed from [TS]

  reaching your mail server at all mail [TS]

  route lives in the cloud you sign up [TS]

  change your MX records for your domain [TS]

  two-point mail route and then all the [TS]

  inbound mail for your domain comes to [TS]

  mail route servers mail route service [TS]

  process it make sure that it's not spam [TS]

  or viruses or bounced email pulls all [TS]

  that stuff out and then delivers only [TS]

  the legitimate email that you want and [TS]

  need to receive to your mail server and [TS]

  then into your inbox traffic and load on [TS]

  your mail server goes down the junk [TS]

  never reaches you [TS]

  you don't have to maintain the [TS]

  hardware/software all happens up in the [TS]

  cloud mail routes servers very easy to [TS]

  set up super reliable is trusted by [TS]

  large organizations like universities [TS]

  and corporations I find as a regular old [TS]

  desktop user from the interface to be [TS]

  super easy [TS]

  I i really enjoy using it i like [TS]

  checking on what spam I didn't get [TS]

  that's actually kind of a blast and if [TS]

  you're an email administrator or an IT [TS]

  professional they built all the tools [TS]

  with your in mind they've got an API for [TS]

  easy account management their support [TS]

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  bagging outbound relay everything you'd [TS]

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  you can start a risk-free trial without [TS]

  any credit card necessary it's simple [TS]

  and effective is no reason not to try it [TS]

  every listen to the incomparable can [TS]

  receive ten percent off of mail route [TS]

  for the lifetime of the account go to [TS]

  mail route dot net / smell right now to [TS]

  sign up and thank you so much to mail [TS]

  route for sponsoring the uncomfortable [TS]

  alright let's let's move on talking [TS]

  about kingdom come I am I i will put it [TS]

  out there i am somebody who is vaguely [TS]

  aware of DC mythology and read some DC [TS]

  comics but I was always much more of a [TS]

  Marvel guy and so coming up on kingdom [TS]

  come as i did I thought well this is [TS]

  this looks cool you know thumbing [TS]

  through it at Barnes & Noble or whatever [TS]

  and i bought it and I realized as i read [TS]

  that there were so many layers of [TS]

  reference to characters that I knew [TS]

  nothing about but I knew the basics [TS]

  enough sort of like what erica was [TS]

  saying about about marbles I knew enough [TS]

  about Superman Batman Wonder Woman and [TS]

  Green Lantern the flash and things like [TS]

  that captain marvel that I could that I [TS]

  could get it [TS]

  what I really loved about it and this is [TS]

  this kingdom come has much more of a [TS]

  story Kingdom Come is the story of a [TS]

  future it's it's the I think it's the [TS]

  early 21st century whoo [TS]

  we're superheroes anybody the old-school [TS]

  superheroes behind for a while and there [TS]

  are new school superheroes like from the [TS]

  nineties who have emerged in their awful [TS]

  we know that was here at 19 terrible [TS]

  you're going to do something [TS]

  just use your ears everywhere to their [TS]

  awful and so the world is coming on to [TS]

  hell and likewise we are seeing that you [TS]

  know it's not a great place for regular [TS]

  humans it's really more the superhumans [TS]

  are just kind of flying around fighting [TS]

  each other for fun [TS]

  so there's that whole kind of meta level [TS]

  and then and then one woman goes and has [TS]

  a talk with Superman and says you know [TS]

  this is crap we need to deal with it bad [TS]

  things have happened they blew up you [TS]

  know nuclear you know they they split [TS]

  captain atom into and he made a nuclear [TS]

  explosion and pointed and poisoned the [TS]

  Midwest the US and it's very bad you [TS]

  need to do something about it and so [TS]

  there's that this is a this book with a [TS]

  story but what is fascinating about this [TS]

  is as DC calls in elseworld it's like [TS]

  not in continuity it's a it's a future [TS]

  time and and these characters are these [TS]

  iconic characters are allowed to be [TS]

  iconic and and and there are [TS]

  consequences and and you can tell abroad [TS]

  story within this a broad this is like a [TS]

  but we'll get to that it was a lot of [TS]

  story here love story that's just [TS]

  summarized because there's too much [TS]

  story to actually tell but you know and [TS]

  there's it from page one there is a [TS]

  whole biblical overlay of the you know [TS]

  the end times and revelation Kingdom [TS]

  Come is the name of the thing and it you [TS]

  know a clash with the super humans and [TS]

  the the super humans and the [TS]

  supervillains essentially and then the [TS]

  humans who are also not that great [TS]

  it's a fascinating piece of work in the [TS]

  art is beautiful by alex ross all the [TS]

  way if it does feel different in and [TS]

  more rough than the lavish stuff that's [TS]

  in Marvel's and I felt like if that was [TS]

  the if if Marbles was the nostalgic [TS]

  family family album of pictures then [TS]

  this was sort of like a bunch of news [TS]

  cutting slept together or newsreels or [TS]

  something [TS]

  I what I find interesting about kingdom [TS]

  comes it's basically a really its you [TS]

  mentioned there's them the framing [TS]

  devices that you have a minister who's [TS]

  asked to run around the universe with [TS]

  the specter yes and help the specter sit [TS]

  in judgment but what this really is is a [TS]

  family AKA thumbnail version of the [TS]

  story might well be [TS]

  Jesus akc been having of Superman [TS]

  ya know because it's because it's [TS]

  literally like one of the first times [TS]

  you see Jesus there's there's a panel [TS]

  where Superman's got long hair and you [TS]

  know it's holding your cross beam on his [TS]

  shoulders and the Christian imagery ya [TS]

  could not be more blatant if you had [TS]

  like a group of hippies singing [TS]

  preparing the way of water underneath [TS]

  him the gist of that the gist of the [TS]

  story is is will Jesus / Superman step [TS]

  up and do what is necessary with the the [TS]

  power she has been given and then at the [TS]

  very end there's kind of a [TS]

  bait-and-switch when no surprise [TS]

  surprise Captain Marvel is your [TS]

  sacrificial lamb all along and Superman [TS]

  is is in Superman like there's a heavy [TS]

  emphasis on the man portion of Superman [TS]

  by the end of the by the end of the [TS]

  kingdom come [TS]

  and the information there is that he's [TS]

  finally come to terms with the man part [TS]

  of Superman and that's what's going to [TS]

  make it more effective super super being [TS]

  by the end of it whereas diana is pretty [TS]

  much just unrepentantly I'm worshiped [TS]

  from beginning to end of the story [TS]

  no there's not a whole lot of character [TS]

  development for anyone other than anyone [TS]

  other than Superman this is basically [TS]

  the whole book is about the battle for [TS]

  Superman soul where he had effectively [TS]

  dropped out of public life ten years [TS]

  earlier when he was horrified by people [TS]

  like yeah it's okay to kill super [TS]

  villains and it didn't want Lois Lane [TS]

  was killed by the Joker yeah but he then [TS]

  you're gone yeah megog my god kills the [TS]

  Joker and Superman like that's not how [TS]

  it's supposed to work and he drops out [TS]

  of public life on the public was like [TS]

  why can't we kill super villains already [TS]

  if the nineties if ya stream yeah yeah [TS]

  let's get this book this book feels like [TS]

  a reaction to the content the comics of [TS]

  the nineteen nineties and that it'sit's [TS]

  the struggle for the soul of Superman [TS]

  can be seen as metaphorical that way i [TS]

  just find the religious imagery through [TS]

  this whole thing incredibly striking [TS]

  because it suggests that there's [TS]

  different ways to worship these these [TS]

  people and then the question is how did [TS]

  the gods respond to the worship that is [TS]

  they do and they've the guy named Magog [TS]

  like that yeah Bible you're gonna be [TS]

  good right yeah all of this weather the [TS]

  gods are actually do it or whether they [TS]

  should be God's in the first place I [TS]

  mean it is this is this is angry god [TS]

  stuff this is not warm and fuzzy prayers [TS]

  for healing kinds of stuff then [TS]

  the they don't become worthy of normal [TS]

  humans trust until the end of kingdom [TS]

  come when they when they take their [TS]

  masks off and stop wearing the uniform [TS]

  you could argue that the story too is [TS]

  that the old gods the the you know the [TS]

  the superheroes that we know [TS]

  left left the world right to to their [TS]

  own to its own devices and now we're [TS]

  having that debate of while things got [TS]

  really bad when we laughed doing later [TS]

  do we reengage here do we re-enter and [TS]

  they do and they say we're taking over [TS]

  and that does not go well write like all [TS]

  the all the villains are upset the UN is [TS]

  upset and even the humans who have been [TS]

  heroes are upset and that's a [TS]

  fascinating split the split between [TS]

  batman bruce wayne has got it is the [TS]

  heroes just booked more you really like [TS]

  and he's wonderful but but he's human [TS]

  and and he's got sort of the human [TS]

  heroes with him and then there are the [TS]

  godlike heroes and they are they are on [TS]

  opposite sides ish for a long time which [TS]

  is fascinating [TS]

  damn i do also enjoy how commendable you [TS]

  know what this is like a landowner [TS]

  problem i got grab you at seventy [TS]

  percent of the of their surface to deal [TS]

  with some away and you know you'll be [TS]

  able to jail here i think it's [TS]

  interesting that actually Batman doesn't [TS]

  take as bigger role as i keep kept [TS]

  expecting him to like a lot of big d [TS]

  stories boil down to Superman arguing [TS]

  with Batman person man vs Batman don't [TS]

  justice or but in this one it's really [TS]

  more Superman arguing with Wonder Woman [TS]

  uh-huh and then Batman happening to come [TS]

  along at the end and solve everything [TS]

  the deus ex Batna yeah wonder woman is [TS]

  so interesting [TS]

  this version of that carries so [TS]

  interesting in this she doesn't let him [TS]

  know that she's essentially been kicked [TS]

  out of her llanera yeah uh and stripped [TS]

  of all of her you know royalty and [TS]

  things like that in it you know she [TS]

  becomes up later and she's got the [TS]

  god-kind of godlike attitude and she is [TS]

  also more like those other heroes and [TS]

  that she's like we've got to do whatever [TS]

  we can to win this whereas Superman is [TS]

  very much like [TS]

  almost Hamlet like in his in decisions [TS]

  about well I mean you know what I wanted [TS]

  to be good but you know I don't want to [TS]

  do anything bad to make it good and [TS]

  she's like let's just kill those guys [TS]

  and it's fascinating that the push and [TS]

  pull between those two characters to as [TS]

  they're also obviously attracted to each [TS]

  other [TS]

  yeah yeah it's it's a more about the [TS]

  death of at first they perceive the [TS]

  problem Superman Wonder Woman perceive [TS]

  the problem as it's this new generation [TS]

  of kids who don't know morality you know [TS]

  there is there is right and there is [TS]

  wrong and it's easy to tell the [TS]

  difference and then we discover [TS]

  throughout the story that the problem is [TS]

  not these kids it the problem is your [TS]

  approach to the solution it is superman [TS]

  and wonder woman are taking a Mike takes [TS]

  right up approach this thing and you get [TS]

  into even bigger balls than the ones [TS]

  that they thought they were solving if I [TS]

  can if I can interject with that was [TS]

  something that I feel location [TS]

  preference purpose with the words focus [TS]

  on become I don't Jason I just a little [TS]

  bit of origin story of Kingdom Come [TS]

  itself because i think it's directly [TS]

  relevant to this you know the the the [TS]

  the old gods making way for the new gods [TS]

  and realizing the new gods are not so [TS]

  great and going well we should come back [TS]

  and clean this stuff up this story was [TS]

  was originally pitched as an outline by [TS]

  alex ross while he was working on [TS]

  Marvel's he wanted to do something like [TS]

  this with DC but he didn't know DC [TS]

  continuity as well he pitched it to [TS]

  let's see who is it too is it was it [TS]

  James Robinson famous for for his [TS]

  legendary run on starman along with a [TS]

  bunch of other stuff and he he pitched [TS]

  this thing that was similar in scope and [TS]

  theoretical you know dramatic [TS]

  implications to something like watchman [TS]

  or an alum or project that got pitched [TS]

  years before called twilight of the [TS]

  superheroes that never turned into [TS]

  anything but that has been its its [TS]

  corpse has been well plundered by [TS]

  especially kingdom come from which it [TS]

  took some very very direct [TS]

  inspiration but loads of other things [TS]

  that would follow in DC history where [TS]

  the general concept was was this you [TS]

  know what what happens you know when [TS]

  when some big catastrophic thing like [TS]

  this is going to happen and it was it [TS]

  was something that just kind of [TS]

  dissolved in terms of of Moore's take on [TS]

  it but but bits of it especially [TS]

  especially the notion of dealing with [TS]

  the conflict between the older and [TS]

  younger generations of superheroes and [TS]

  how to deal with super villains and [TS]

  putting some some This Is It this is the [TS]

  last one this is the big epic final [TS]

  ragnarok level event where everything [TS]

  goes to hell and they eventually ended [TS]

  up hearing with Mark way because mark [TS]

  waid as i mentioned earlier had these [TS]

  note card boxes full of full of files on [TS]

  all of these comic book characters as a [TS]

  kid and knows all of this stuff [TS]

  encyclopedia CLE and if you look at this [TS]

  and then you look at Earth x which ross [TS]

  did with Marvel few years later with [TS]

  with jim courier you see the difference [TS]

  when he's paired with somebody like Mark [TS]

  Waid and when he's given more free rein [TS]

  to just kind of go nuts and that one [TS]

  kind of falls falls apart of the ends [TS]

  about what I like so much about this is [TS]

  yes there's loads of continuity porn all [TS]

  over it but it ties together really [TS]

  nicely even if like me still years later [TS]

  you're realizing go scot-free is a guy [TS]

  called mister miracle and he's a thing [TS]

  is a character [TS]

  ok what's he all about it here and there [TS]

  you go see [TS]

  clever clever comic-book names but it's [TS]

  a that the the the core conceit of this [TS]

  potentially being the big final story [TS]

  for all of these characters is something [TS]

  that when when I discovered it where I [TS]

  just kind of grabbed DC stuff here and [TS]

  there it was it was phenomenal i didn't [TS]

  know anything about then Captain Marvel [TS]

  now called shazam I'd never seen him [TS]

  that didn't know that existed and he [TS]

  played a major role in this [TS]

  thing and then I decided well maybe I [TS]

  should I should look into who this [TS]

  character is he traveled in a Winnebago [TS]

  and the seventies voices you may have [TS]

  missed that but you watch the kids TV in [TS]

  the in the seventh member he traveled [TS]

  with his friend mentor in a Winnebago it [TS]

  is a mark waid certainly is a extremely [TS]

  interested in thinking about the idea of [TS]

  Superman and what it what life Marvel [TS]

  Comics doesn't have Superman they don't [TS]

  have a really uh Superman india they [TS]

  have some characters were kinda like [TS]

  that now but not not one of their their [TS]

  lead characters is not the all-powerful [TS]

  kind of being that Superman can be and [TS]

  Mark weight is definitely fascinated by [TS]

  him and you see the kingdom come this is [TS]

  essentially like Lisa said the story of [TS]

  what Superman going to do and what [TS]

  decision that mean essentially making [TS]

  this decision like do we all die or do [TS]

  we live and the world is ruined and [TS]

  there's a third option which is the [TS]

  captain marvel blows up the thing and [TS]

  many of them died but not all of them [TS]

  and that's that somehow it gets resolved [TS]

  in the end it but everybody loses that's [TS]

  how yes well I mean so Marcus wrote [TS]

  irredeemable which i recommend to people [TS]

  i think it's a really interesting comic [TS]

  and it lasted for 37 issues and it tells [TS]

  the whole story but irredeemable is [TS]

  essentially mark waid saying what if [TS]

  Superman went bad one day and it's it's [TS]

  great but it is very clear that this is [TS]

  a subject that is near and dear to mark [TS]

  waid heart and he likes to he likes to [TS]

  talk about one of the great attractions [TS]

  of Kingdom Come is that because it's set [TS]

  outside of continuity can tell a story [TS]

  and it can make changes in these [TS]

  characters and they can have development [TS]

  in age and this is sort of old grumpy [TS]

  Batman instead of you know younger [TS]

  grumpy Batman that we usually see and it [TS]

  said that's all that's all kinda [TS]

  fascinating one of course seven years [TS]

  later wait got a chance in continuity to [TS]

  redefine Superman with the well until [TS]

  they wiped away all of continuity the [TS]

  the really great canonical modern [TS]

  retelling of the Superman myth with with [TS]

  birth right birth on which they lifted [TS]

  from like crazy for that man of steel [TS]

  movie that the [TS]

  that being on an episode of the [TS]

  incomparable taught me i really did hate [TS]

  that one [TS]

  hiren I remembered you know everything [TS]

  when I got a tweet from somebody so I [TS]

  finally some and steel wow you guys are [TS]

  right it's terrible my getaway but thank [TS]

  you for the reinforcement years later I [TS]

  was so scarred by it that intervention [TS]

  had to take place for me to realize my [TS]

  true feelings about it that I was trying [TS]

  to push for the mac want to push away [TS]

  one of the inciting moments in still in [TS]

  Marvel's Civil War comic event is a [TS]

  group of superheroes hat making a [TS]

  mistake that leads to a large loss of [TS]

  innocent life [TS]

  one might say that marquel and American [TS]

  alarm might have actually might have [TS]

  read this it brings that to mind when i [TS]

  read kingdom come this time I was like [TS]

  oh you know that's kind of how the whole [TS]

  civil war thing start [TS]

  that's that's the 1i Reds [TS]

  that's that's the 1i Reds [TS]

  the war for the first time like wait a [TS]

  minute yeah really familiar interesting [TS]

  but if you know the idea that [TS]

  superheroes when left to their own [TS]

  devices might make some super mistakes [TS]

  and the kill a bunch of innocent people [TS]

  is it's an interesting thing to explore [TS]

  i wanted to mention the ending which my [TS]

  understanding is is not in the car [TS]

  original comics and only in the [TS]

  collection which is the one year leaving [TS]

  the one year later and along where [TS]

  they're in plant on the planet hollywood [TS]

  of superhero god I love that besides [TS]

  allah i love the purpose of the [TS]

  restaurant and menu cracks me up to but [TS]

  today's special is the power girl [TS]

  chicken sandwich [TS]

  yeah it's like that is bad if I could [TS]

  interject for just a second that i read [TS]

  this because I couldn't find my uh my i [TS]

  have the original press teach comics and [TS]

  but I couldn't find them in time so i [TS]

  got this off of comiXology and included [TS]

  with issue for is the one year later [TS]

  things so i'm not sure it i think it may [TS]

  have been part of the original I don't [TS]

  think I don't think I i think it was [TS]

  included in reprints & and the digital [TS]

  versions that have existed go off of the [TS]

  reference it's got my favorite thing in [TS]

  it which is the spot on drink choices [TS]

  for Superman Batman Wonder Woman water [TS]

  and coffee [TS]

  it's like right my interview I gotta [TS]

  keep your comments so i gotta say the [TS]

  epilogue is my favorite thing in the [TS]

  whole comic i love it i love everything [TS]

  about i love the fact that there's days [TS]

  that there are superheroes eating at the [TS]

  superhero themed restaurant because one [TS]

  woman really just wants to see how crazy [TS]

  this place would be and then people [TS]

  dressed in all the costumes of all the [TS]

  superheroes and ended things on the menu [TS]

  are hilarious and that man just wants a [TS]

  steak well-done and he doesn't care what [TS]

  the theme is he just wants to steak [TS]

  well-done it comes medium and Superman [TS]

  makes it will then was he yes he like [TS]

  moves his dad glasses if you just use [TS]

  eyes glared for a moment and it's [TS]

  delightful i love it so much I mean like [TS]

  more than the mean the story is [TS]

  interesting and you know operatic and [TS]

  has religious metaphors forever and all [TS]

  of that and yet you know what I kind of [TS]

  really like the idea of back [TS]

  man superman and wonder woman who are [TS]

  now Superman Wonder Woman having a baby [TS]

  and they ask Batman to be the to be the [TS]

  Godfather i kinda that 12 pages or [TS]

  whatever it is is kind of my favorite [TS]

  thing just like them having lunch [TS]

  it's my favorite thing in the book which [TS]

  is crazy the one little touch that I [TS]

  loved the most was Superman drinking out [TS]

  of issues and glass [TS]

  oh yeah well i know you have time either [TS]

  gasoline Lantern Lantern not killed me [TS]

  to my only complaint is that i feel that [TS]

  Batman has a high tolerance for things [TS]

  with stupid names it so we should not [TS]

  get upset at the various times i'm sorry [TS]

  are you gonna go back to your bat [TS]

  computer and complain that we have a [TS]

  color steak something silly i really [TS]

  like the middle click mozzarella sticks [TS]

  you know maybe Batman has gotten a [TS]

  little crusty in his old engine you know [TS]

  he's okay with the stuff that he named [TS]

  when he was a young crazy to quit the [TS]

  man has an exoskeleton now he's cranky [TS]

  ok the process of turning into sam neill [TS]

  has made him bitter [TS]

  yep with the the stuff that the stuff [TS]

  that's easy to pick up on whether you're [TS]

  a continuity porn you know freaker not [TS]

  that's it so dirty [TS]

  oh my god well I see I the the thing [TS]

  that rereading this there was loads of [TS]

  stuff that i picked up on that I [TS]

  definitely didn't get 1996 and I'm i'm [TS]

  curious my assumption is compared to [TS]

  Marvel's there's a lot more stuff that [TS]

  they may just come off like the invented [TS]

  children that nobody had ever seen [TS]

  before somebody like Erica I it was was [TS]

  this brain melting you know I I again I [TS]

  knew enough about the the biggies here [TS]

  that you don't Superman Batman Wonder [TS]

  Woman like that was no problem for me I [TS]

  honestly reading this got the impression [TS]

  than an awful lot if not all of the next [TS]

  generation of superheroes were made up [TS]

  for this so i don't know if they were [TS]

  trying to make it look like that but [TS]

  that was that was very much the way that [TS]

  it came off to me none of them seem [TS]

  particularly consequential and I just [TS]

  didn't get that sort of same like you [TS]

  know in Marvel's when you see somebody [TS]

  in the background I just felt like [TS]

  this is somebody who is a part of the [TS]

  tapestry of this era and I didn't feel [TS]

  that way with kingdom come because I [TS]

  mean it's a very different kind of story [TS]

  but I I knew enough about the people who [TS]

  are keeping the action moving to be able [TS]

  to buy into the story and so to get [TS]

  behind the characters and the anybody [TS]

  who I wouldn't have known very well what [TS]

  wasn't doing a whole lot in the story so [TS]

  they were just kind of like background [TS]

  characters and and they didn't it didn't [TS]

  bother me very much to have them there [TS]

  although i think the fact that there [TS]

  were so many characters that were named [TS]

  like that [TS]

  in addition did sort of make it a little [TS]

  bit just overwhelming with the numbers [TS]

  there's a lot of them so i checked out [TS]

  emotionally just a little bit because I [TS]

  didn't feel like I I knew enough about [TS]

  the the bad guys there wasn't anything [TS]

  for me for Lex Luthor to to hang my [TS]

  emotional hat on [TS]

  that's interesting because alex ross at [TS]

  the time I did this insanely detailed [TS]

  Bible are you know about who all of [TS]

  these characters are you know which one [TS]

  of these characters is the daughter of [TS]

  Dick Grayson and Starfire and things [TS]

  like that and much of this never shows [TS]

  up in the actual book kingdom come in [TS]

  the actual story but I i did think when [TS]

  i was reading this I just kept my eyes [TS]

  on Superman Wonder Woman and Batman [TS]

  yeah and the hordes of characters in the [TS]

  background that had all of these [TS]

  relations to the original DC characters [TS]

  on of it was a strange kind of [TS]

  continuity porn that I was able to [TS]

  completely ignore because it was like [TS]

  speculative comp continuity porn [TS]

  it wasn't talking about the history of [TS]

  the right [TS]

  DC universe so much as where it could go [TS]

  next and I think Erica actually mean [TS]

  checking out is actually probably the [TS]

  right way to approach all these [TS]

  characters they're just cannon fodder [TS]

  agree [TS]

  close your eyes and think of England [TS]

  Japanese cheesy cheesy cameos and cheesy [TS]

  cameos have a tendency to annoy me so [TS]

  it's just like okay then i can I talk [TS]

  about the difference been reading these [TS]

  in the nineteen nineties vs [TS]

  yeah well and [TS]

  because and I notice with Marvel's to is [TS]

  the first time i saw Tony Stark in [TS]

  Marvel's I had it and this was the first [TS]

  time I red marbles and saw Tony Stark [TS]

  it was a hundred percent it made perfect [TS]

  sense and again I was like well of [TS]

  course Tony Stark always looks like that [TS]

  that's the derring-do that I remember [TS]

  and then when I went back and reread [TS]

  Marvel's in preparation for this podcast [TS]

  there was a moment where there's kind of [TS]

  a perceptual shift from like wait the [TS]

  Black Widow doesn't look like that [TS]

  because i have a little bit of scarlett [TS]

  johansson back of my head now and it was [TS]

  the same thing where and I I think [TS]

  Ultimates sort of dropkick me down this [TS]

  path because you know that they were the [TS]

  ones who started by bait by using samuel [TS]

  l jackson is as the ultimate nick fury [TS]

  but when I red marbles this time out it [TS]

  was a little strange to see this [TS]

  character something oh no these are [TS]

  these don't map to that the composites i [TS]

  have in my head now because the [TS]

  composites are informed by step from the [TS]

  Audis and when I went back and reread [TS]

  kingdom comfort for the umpteenth time I [TS]

  actually didn't have that problem and I [TS]

  think one of the reasons i didn't have [TS]

  that problem is because the characters [TS]

  who are being recycled through the [TS]

  movies now are being recycled in one [TS]

  generation but like when you have Batman [TS]

  who is balding and in the end the bad [TS]

  exoskeleton and like the green arrow has [TS]

  lost all of his hair and put on some way [TS]

  and it's pretty obvious that him in the [TS]

  Black Canary have retired to boca and [TS]

  and and olive and you know even Superman [TS]

  is great the temples and looking a [TS]

  little bit beefy there wasn't that [TS]

  disconnect with weight now this is not [TS]

  how they look in my head now that the [TS]

  same way i had with Marvel's there's [TS]

  there's because and i love the CW shows [TS]

  as much as the next person but like [TS]

  there's no way I'm confusing any of the [TS]

  the characters therefore what I think [TS]

  kingdom com that there's just there's a [TS]

  sharper delineation whereas with marbles [TS]

  there's a little bit of bleeding around [TS]

  the edges and I thought that was kind of [TS]

  interesting interesting take [TS]

  did you notice the Tony Stark looks like [TS]

  Timothy Dalton yes with my gosh yeah [TS]

  Rockets here was around it i think it [TS]

  might have helped that Marvel's is [TS]

  allegedly portraying the way things were [TS]

  so it's supposed to match your memory [TS]

  but Kingdom Come is doing a future [TS]

  version and a man like let's say you [TS]

  love Christopher Reeve or rent and Ralph [TS]

  there's somebody that maybe they look [TS]

  like that when they get old you know yet [TS]

  yeah probably not they did that manages [TS]

  beautiful the the exoskeleton Batman is [TS]

  an interesting historical footnote for [TS]

  that period in DC because just a couple [TS]

  years before this they had broken the [TS]

  bat spine and so I guess they were they [TS]

  were playing off of well I guess that's [TS]

  how we explain what that man 20 years [TS]

  from now it's like he's got some exosuit [TS]

  thing going [TS]

  yeah I like that or he just got better [TS]

  for no reason yeah sure I i like that [TS]

  Batman is human and he's great he's you [TS]

  know he's old and falling apart and has [TS]

  an exoskeleton because he you know [TS]

  that's that's Batman he's gonna find a [TS]

  way and I think I think that's a really [TS]

  interesting bit of that character i just [TS]

  love the green arrow family i love it so [TS]

  much that he had diner is still together [TS]

  and that their daughter has picked up [TS]

  the mantle and they're like apparently [TS]

  really cool with it that's one of my [TS]

  favorite background bits of color [TS]

  through the whole book i'm taking a [TS]

  break not for a sponsor but tell you [TS]

  about some other stuff that's available [TS]

  on the uncomfortable network do you know [TS]

  about unjustly maligned it is a pop [TS]

  culture show about the sometimes strange [TS]

  things that we all love that other [TS]

  people don't [TS]

  every episode features your host comics [TS]

  and games writer anthony johnson talking [TS]

  to a guest to explain why that thing [TS]

  that you hate is actually really great [TS]

  recent episodes include Glenn [TS]

  fleischmann defending the animated [TS]

  series Kim Possible al Kennedy defending [TS]

  Doctor Who the TV movie Tron defended by [TS]

  wilwheaton and of course stargate sg-1 [TS]

  defended by me check it out [TS]

  unjustly maligned it's at the [TS]

  incomparable dot-com / UMP and while at [TS]

  the incomparable also check out our TV [TS]

  podcast currently recapping arrow the [TS]

  flash daredevil and Game of Thrones [TS]

  every episode we talked about it at the [TS]

  TV podcast and now I return you to the [TS]

  mother Zeppelin I i'm interested in in [TS]

  overall overall reactions to i found a [TS]

  picture of Timothy Dalton this tony [TS]

  stark to its totally right i totally [TS]

  called that one also there's a George [TS]

  Avengers a separate HW bush appears in [TS]

  one in the [TS]

  use in the beginning of so you'd like a [TS]

  reaction to you being so right about [TS]

  yeah tell me about how great my reaction [TS]

  was to the no I just kingdom come [TS]

  so captain marvel that I want to mention [TS]

  Captain Marvel such a tragic figure [TS]

  that's terrible it's a fascinating way [TS]

  that they use them in the billy batson [TS]

  has sort of been brainwashed by the lex [TS]

  luthor or and Captain Marvel ends up [TS]

  being this character that is the is a [TS]

  great he's on the he's off the board and [TS]

  then he's on the board but he's a great [TS]

  threat and then in the end he sort of [TS]

  makes the supreme sacrifice whatever how [TS]

  all of the super villains are scared to [TS]

  death of him and integrate it turns out [TS]

  to be it turns out that he's Billy [TS]

  already got grown up so he looks like [TS]

  Captain Marvel but he's not Captain [TS]

  Marvel he's still Billy Batson and any [TS]

  of the backstory here is the captain [TS]

  marvel was a from a different comic book [TS]

  publisher and they were bought by DC [TS]

  comics and it's he sort of been [TS]

  awkwardly overtime integrated as shazam [TS]

  now because marvel comics and trademarks [TS]

  and whatever he's sort of an awkwardly [TS]

  integrated but is always felt like a [TS]

  little bit of another place and what I [TS]

  I'm also fascinated by the captain [TS]

  marvel [TS]

  who is that whose best days were really [TS]

  a long time ago is an important mover in [TS]

  a couple of amazing pieces of more [TS]

  modern comic book art which is miracle [TS]

  man and kingdom come [TS]

  because miracle man is essentially the [TS]

  english version of Captain Marvel [TS]

  originally Marvel man with his name [TS]

  changed by Alan Moore and uh and then [TS]

  hit Marvel man merry Marvel man and he [TS]

  says Kyoto original like that right but [TS]

  yet you know it's just it's fascinating [TS]

  to me and i like how is used here [TS]

  because he's silent and scary and [TS]

  menacing and then like broken and [TS]

  terrifying because he's a minute you [TS]

  know brainwashed by lex luthor it is a [TS]

  it is a fascinating use of that [TS]

  character who who is an outsider in the [TS]

  DC Comics world in here that's what he [TS]

  is he's an outsider and kind of a [TS]

  monster but in the end shakes it off and [TS]

  shows that he's a hero i just i think [TS]

  it's a really interesting use of that [TS]

  character that is just so tragic [TS]

  yeah I love that Captain Marvel uses his [TS]

  a magic lightning bolt which is one of [TS]

  Superman's only weaknesses [TS]

  just eat up saying Shazam and dodging [TS]

  and lending which also happens in [TS]

  Justice League Unlimited in the great [TS]

  episode [TS]

  you just stole that reference from me [TS]

  sir is 20 / also i mean Marvel's marvels [TS]

  is is not i mean there's a story there [TS]

  but it's not a story like kingdom come [TS]

  there's so much narrative and I i'm [TS]

  curious what everybody thinks of all in [TS]

  all of Kingdom common as a story my i'll [TS]

  i'll tell you my feeling about it [TS]

  reading it again after having not read [TS]

  it for a little while is I there are [TS]

  some rough moments where I feel like [TS]

  essentially they're like okay there's [TS]

  too much [TS]

  we're just gonna list a whole bunch of [TS]

  things that happen now and then we'll [TS]

  get back to the interesting dialogue [TS]

  between the characters later and maybe [TS]

  it feels very compressed it feels like [TS]

  12 issues of story put into four issues [TS]

  of of comics in a way that Marvel's [TS]

  obviously doesn't and I'm just so so [TS]

  that's my only real complaint about is [TS]

  it feels like there's too much here in [TS]

  its two compressed and that there are [TS]

  parts that just kind of weak what we we [TS]

  we pull back and see some big details [TS]

  because there's just not enough time [TS]

  essentially in the running time of the [TS]

  story but you know it is what I like [TS]

  about it is that it is big and crazy and [TS]

  iconic and about what happens if the if [TS]

  you chart like a world with super heroes [TS]

  in it [TS]

  where does it end up logically which is [TS]

  kind of like this it's there's too many [TS]

  people and they're destroying everything [TS]

  and what's the place regular people but [TS]

  i wanted to throw it to you guys since [TS]

  this is more of a traditional you know [TS]

  it's a it different they're more story [TS]

  here than there is in Marvel's doesn't [TS]

  work in the end of look reading it now [TS]

  does does what you know does came in [TS]

  from work [TS]

  Lisa so do you remember how we got about [TS]

  10 years ago i think is grant morrison [TS]

  did the seven soldiers and there was [TS]

  like a four-issue serious I'm klarion [TS]

  the witch boy in a four-issue series on [TS]

  girl [TS]

  this is kind of the exact opposite of it [TS]

  act in that you could have done like [TS]

  jason said you could have done like 20 [TS]

  you could like seven separate miniseries [TS]

  and link them all together [TS]

  and really embroidered this universe I [TS]

  would have loved to have seen something [TS]

  like that and gotten more texture from [TS]

  some of the teams especially the road [TS]

  younger teams or the second or third [TS]

  generation superheroes like again you've [TS]

  got like a blood second or [TS]

  third-generation Black Canary you've got [TS]

  a kid flash a whole bunch of those that [TS]

  said I think the compressed format kind [TS]

  of works in a way to shock the reader [TS]

  into accepting how dramatically things [TS]

  have changed because over the space of a [TS]

  few pages you have to accept that the [TS]

  Joker and Lois Lane have both been [TS]

  killed you have to accept that [TS]

  Superman's gone to retirement you have [TS]

  to accept that plain jane humans as it [TS]

  were [TS]

  who used to be superheroes are our [TS]

  underground or retired you have to [TS]

  accept that [TS]

  Hockman has somehow turned into some [TS]

  weird animal hybrid so your brain has to [TS]

  kind of readjusting ok here we go what [TS]

  are the rules and in that way I think it [TS]

  makes for really great compact [TS]

  storytelling but the the the the [TS]

  world-building me would really like it [TS]

  if it had been stretched out to like yet [TS]

  twenty issues where you'd get the [TS]

  spin-off series and you find out a [TS]

  little bit more about how things got to [TS]

  be the way they are or what's going on [TS]

  inside the gulag get the time that soup [TS]

  while Superman and Wonder Woman havin a [TS]

  big old discussion about Brainiac or [TS]

  what that means doing to set up all of [TS]

  his chest pieces in the background and [TS]

  why his son with the League of Assassins [TS]

  is working where he's working because [TS]

  there's a there are a lot of things that [TS]

  are just lightly sketched out that I [TS]

  would have liked to see more from just [TS]

  for my own selfish nerdy perspective i'm [TS]

  not a huge fan of the story of kingdom [TS]

  come at all [TS]

  there's sort of a human protagonist but [TS]

  he's feels really shoehorned in there [TS]

  and he never does anything and we never [TS]

  even video cable he has a good talk with [TS]

  Superman at the end [TS]

  hmm well you know you've got to have a [TS]

  broad audience surrogate and there [TS]

  somewhere but I don't even know how this [TS]

  guy feels about most of it's like he [TS]

  comes in at the beginning of the issue [TS]

  and then we can really worried he's [TS]

  really worried about all of it [TS]

  yeah I i prefer what Marvel's did even [TS]

  if it's not strictly a narrative to what [TS]

  kingdom come [TS]

  does which has a narrative but I don't [TS]

  think really executed all that well I [TS]

  defy your stance sir [TS]

  now I i enjoy Kingdom Come are far more [TS]

  than Marvel's part of that is my [TS]

  affinity for the big iconic DC universe [TS]

  and the godlike heroes compared to the [TS]

  ground level stuff that Marvel tends to [TS]

  have but with the exception of the fact [TS]

  that Phil Sheldon really doesn't do [TS]

  enough in the story i know the point is [TS]

  that he's supposed to be an observer and [TS]

  he supposed to pass some sort of [TS]

  judgment but the judgment moment passes [TS]

  and then all that he is able to do is [TS]

  council Superman at the end and I don't [TS]

  think that that's waiting enough [TS]

  other than that I think that this is a [TS]

  more consistent better shaped story than [TS]

  Marvel's because there is actually an [TS]

  arc that goes through it there is a [TS]

  problem seriously is there is an attempt [TS]

  at a solution that escalates the problem [TS]

  and finally there's a catastrophe and [TS]

  there and then a day no mama [TS]

  whereas in Marvel's it's just it is just [TS]

  slice of life stuff that ends in a [TS]

  tragedy and one guy's disillusionment so [TS]

  as an adventure story as a story that I [TS]

  think doesn't ask as much of its readers [TS]

  in terms of bringing with them [TS]

  continuity baggage I much prefer kingdom [TS]

  come and i think it is a good story on [TS]

  its own [TS]

  to be fair Phil Sheldon never actually [TS]

  talk to Superman because he's in [TS]

  Marvel's but this is a point is the [TS]

  Norman Norman and phil are but [TS]

  everything I have said has just been [TS]

  discredited the old highway you know and [TS]

  get in here guys who observe things is a [TS]

  connection between the East tues dories [TS]

  so that's that that's I was really [TS]

  clever there and then you had to do [TS]

  sorry sorry chip Erica okay Erica what [TS]

  do you think you can come you know I [TS]

  actually read kingdom come first [TS]

  many years ago and it for me it was it [TS]

  was kind of I loved it at the time it [TS]

  was a revelation [TS]

  I've never been a big fan of superhero [TS]

  comics so that's not something I was [TS]

  drawn to and somebody gave me this and [TS]

  said here this is different from from [TS]

  the usual maybe you'll like this and i [TS]

  did because it wasn't [TS]

  not at all what I expected from a [TS]

  superhero comic besides the fact that [TS]

  they were much older [TS]

  it was it was this really interesting [TS]

  story you know taking the the idea of [TS]

  superheroes in general and taking it [TS]

  forward quite a bit and anytime you look [TS]

  at sort of the the ramifications of what [TS]

  might happen [TS]

  that's an interesting science fiction & [TS]

  rope for me so I quite enjoyed it i [TS]

  thought it was momentous and it gave me [TS]

  a little bit more information in my [TS]

  pocket i guess just in general about [TS]

  these key superheroes so i really liked [TS]

  it and then cut to yesterday when i [TS]

  started reading Marvel's I felt at first [TS]

  as I was starting to read Marvel's I i [TS]

  was thinking this is this just feels [TS]

  much more sort of slick and new and then [TS]

  the few DC things that i had read and I [TS]

  was like oh I think I'm probably gonna [TS]

  end up liking the DC stuff much better [TS]

  but by the time i had gotten through the [TS]

  beginning like it felt like Marvel [TS]

  started slow by the time i got through [TS]

  that into the end I was really enjoying [TS]

  it like i said i was getting that [TS]

  nostalgic family reunion kind of feeling [TS]

  so-so i was i was in by the end they [TS]

  pulled me in and then just a few hours [TS]

  later I started reading kingdom come [TS]

  and it was it was coming back to me and [TS]

  I was getting some of those things same [TS]

  feelings that I had before but I felt [TS]

  like it was just reading it in such [TS]

  closeness to Marvel's Marvel's was very [TS]

  very kind of stripped down and it was [TS]

  elegant and I felt like there was no [TS]

  elegance in kingdom come [TS]

  there was there is moment and grandiose [TS]

  business but it was there was so much [TS]

  stuff shoved in there and i completely [TS]

  agree with everybody who said that it [TS]

  just moves so fast and it's just kind of [TS]

  squished together to me there are parts [TS]

  of it where i felt like i was reading a [TS]

  fairytale like something that's just [TS]

  really stripped down to its most basic [TS]

  bones you get you know you get your [TS]

  catastrophe and then suddenly they're [TS]

  living happily ever after and eating it [TS]

  at planet Krypton so I i don't think [TS]

  that came off as well the second reading [TS]

  because i wasn't able to get into it as [TS]

  emotionally because i felt like i was [TS]

  waiting through a lot of plot that [TS]

  while interesting conceptually is maybe [TS]

  not as interesting to me now as it was [TS]

  the first time I encountered it because [TS]

  since then I've seen a lot more of that [TS]

  kind of thing so I mean you know it's [TS]

  perhaps suffering in comparison to the [TS]

  you know 10 years or so in between when [TS]

  i read it that I've experienced a lot [TS]

  more stuff it's definitely a little more [TS]

  zack snyder re i will give you that m is [TS]

  what's your verdict on kingdom come [TS]

  I i think it's fundamentally does [TS]

  different things than Marvel's does for [TS]

  me models is a different lens on [TS]

  something in Kingdom Come is doing [TS]

  something more epic and mythic in scope [TS]

  and that's what I think attracted me to [TS]

  it at a time when when i read it [TS]

  originally that I was getting almost [TS]

  completely out of superhero comics as [TS]

  quickly as i would have gotten onto them [TS]

  and was instead reading vertigo books [TS]

  things like preacher and [TS]

  transmetropolitan at probably too young [TS]

  of an age and the really honestly the [TS]

  thing that attracted me to it was the [TS]

  capabilities of what you can do in [TS]

  elseworld story which it one of the [TS]

  things about the new 52 that drove me [TS]

  the craziest is that it meant no more [TS]

  elseworld stuff and elseworld stories [TS]

  make up some of my favorite DC stories [TS]

  because they they can play outside the [TS]

  bounds of a reality as we mentioned [TS]

  earlier of course now this is Earth 22 [TS]

  kingdom come [TS]

  earth and the ongoing multi versity [TS]

  thing that is bleeding into or [TS]

  overlapping with this convergence thing [TS]

  that they're doing the summer we might [TS]

  get the 28 part [TS]

  taian issue you know digging into [TS]

  different corners of the kingdom come [TS]

  universe know we've never explode [TS]

  I don't just saying that that's actual [TS]

  reality and it's all grant morrison's [TS]

  fault that if it is it if there if there [TS]

  is a thing that that stuck out to me [TS]

  most reading it again [TS]

  DC does a line of reprints called [TS]

  absolute editions they don't four [TS]

  Watchmen for hush got that all kinds of [TS]

  stuff [TS]

  The Sandman one's beautiful the same man [TS]

  one is amazing and I like an idiot [TS]

  didn't get in on absolute kingdom come [TS]

  which when you're dealing with this kind [TS]

  of denseness of imagery [TS]

  rereading this trade paperback from [TS]

  almost 20 years ago where a bunch of the [TS]

  art is cropped off at the at the glue [TS]

  binding i found myself really [TS]

  desperately wishing that I had that big [TS]

  oversized thing like i do for planetary [TS]

  and for a number of other things I [TS]

  kingdom comes it is the sort of thing [TS]

  that I i would want a peek into some of [TS]

  those other little bits of this world [TS]

  like this world is more fascinating to [TS]

  me than the vast majority of what DC has [TS]

  done with their new 52 line and most of [TS]

  their superhero stuff for quite a while [TS]

  and I just I just what I want I i feel [TS]

  myself wanting more but being perfectly [TS]

  satisfied not getting more and even if i [TS]

  pretend like the kingdom follow-up never [TS]

  happened [TS]

  i I'm fine with that I'm fine with this [TS]

  standing on its own as for me the most [TS]

  definitive use of the concepts behind [TS]

  Twilight superheroes that Alan more put [TS]

  together that that I I think anybody [TS]

  could get away with in this world of [TS]

  multiverses and realities crashing into [TS]

  each other and all that kind of stuff [TS]

  yeah it's a like I said I wonder what [TS]

  attracts me to it is the debt freedom to [TS]

  tell a story that it doesn't fit into [TS]

  anything else it's just an interesting [TS]

  story and this is this mythic you know [TS]

  Superman is as Jesus's and actually [TS]

  really interesting idea really the story [TS]

  we've seen a bunch of different [TS]

  variations on it [TS]

  I mean you know he was sent from another [TS]

  world you know [TS]

  Krypton is only sunset yeah we know we [TS]

  got it from but it is uh it's it's a [TS]

  fascinating story I after after you know [TS]

  not having read it for you know five [TS]

  years or seven years or something and [TS]

  revisiting it I i have forgotten its [TS]

  flaws and remembered its virtues and you [TS]

  know I like i said i think that the [TS]

  story is there a lot of moments where [TS]

  the story just kind of gets there's a [TS]

  lot of detail but it's just like to move [TS]

  us to the next scene with dialogue where [TS]

  the characters are discussing what [TS]

  they're doing there's a lot of computer [TS]

  compression happening you know in an era [TS]

  where we are so much decompression in [TS]

  comics it is quite jarring at [TS]

  x to see the level of like amazing [TS]

  compression that happens to fit more [TS]

  stuff into kingdom come [TS]

  yeah it felt really weird wanting some [TS]

  decompression which is the thing that I [TS]

  find myself declining at every turn [TS]

  every chance I get [TS]

  but I'd yeah it's just there's panels [TS]

  here that should be multiple pages [TS]

  rights but that's just not the story [TS]

  that they're telling and that's why I I [TS]

  like a comic that leaves an impression [TS]

  that there's so much more that you know [TS]

  if you sit here and stare at this one [TS]

  panel like an oil painting for the next [TS]

  five hours you'll totally understand it [TS]

  man [TS]

  right i kinda like that for me that was [TS]

  kind of overwhelming is being the [TS]

  complete noob that in in Marvel's there [TS]

  were it's sort of the there's a warmth [TS]

  to it and it made me curious about what [TS]

  it was in that was in the background [TS]

  that was going on [TS]

  whereas here it was just a you know it's [TS]

  not a wall of sound it's a wall of [TS]

  superheroes yes something happen and you [TS]

  and it was just as you'll see way the [TS]

  title in and of itself is more imposing [TS]

  than what I think modern DC would call [TS]

  something like this which would be [TS]

  something like justice league the [TS]

  revelation and it's funny because you're [TS]

  right but like that's really what that [TS]

  the end they would if they made an [TS]

  animated movie out of it would be called [TS]

  justice league revelation that the [TS]

  religious part of it is something that [TS]

  did I just wanted to call out i'm not an [TS]

  overtly religious person not really [TS]

  religious person at all but the thing [TS]

  that I like about the inclusion of it [TS]

  whether you give a crap about one [TS]

  religion or another is that for me [TS]

  where other things like infinity crusade [TS]

  and crossover events and everything is [TS]

  employed religious imagery and just [TS]

  really laid it on thick and made the [TS]

  most ham-fisted crazily terribly wrought [TS]

  religious allegories in this one it [TS]

  really it works for me in in the kind of [TS]

  sense of this being the superheroes [TS]

  ragnarok the the kind of thing the grant [TS]

  morrison wrote a book called super God's [TS]

  about about these method characters [TS]

  being the pantheon [TS]

  olympus for the modern age in in terms [TS]

  of the way that we look at them and [TS]

  think about them instead of taking on a [TS]

  they they guide the way that we live our [TS]

  lives they [TS]

  guide the way that we be asked about [TS]

  stuff on podcast I i think there's there [TS]

  is something interesting there and that [TS]

  that it isn't incredibly crazily [TS]

  didactic I I i think it carries that off [TS]

  rather well you could say the inclusion [TS]

  of the the perspective of the audience [TS]

  being a pastor himself but that's a [TS]

  bridge too far for you but it's not for [TS]

  me and I'm I'm usually the first one to [TS]

  rail against that kind of stuff as just [TS]

  being oh great well where's the where's [TS]

  the priest and a rabbi the whole premise [TS]

  here is essentially what if the [TS]

  superheroes bring about the end times I [TS]

  mean that is the premise you just gotta [TS]

  go into a nightmare yeah you have a [TS]

  bunch of super-powered people that shoot [TS]

  lasers out of their eyes and thunder out [TS]

  of the right now they're gone they're [TS]

  God's let's just I mean that's what [TS]

  that's what this is saying is that they [TS]

  are there the gods for God's walk among [TS]

  this like they did in the olden days of [TS]

  the you know Greek myths and this is the [TS]

  result which is the end of days is upon [TS]

  us and I think that's yeah that's [TS]

  interesting but it's certainly I mean it [TS]

  certainly takes itself seriously at [TS]

  times with all of that which is I think [TS]

  one of the charming things about the [TS]

  ending because the ending is just [TS]

  delightful human and doesn't take itself [TS]

  seriously and it's a great relief after [TS]

  the operatic drama of the end of the [TS]

  world and these moral decisions and all [TS]

  these horrible things that are happening [TS]

  in the rest of the book [TS]

  yeah you have a planet hollywood themed [TS]

  restaurant where the Carrie Kelly Robin [TS]

  is waiting on them apparently Booster [TS]

  Gold is the manager i notice mr. [TS]

  Goldin's the place [TS]

  excuse me mr referred to as the mail to [TS]

  know the manager ok I i thought i [TS]

  remembered him as being the owner and he [TS]

  shows up to talk to him to another [TS]

  friends are framing story finally talked [TS]

  to the school about that anything more [TS]

  about kingdom come before we wrap it up [TS]

  that people have on their agenda that [TS]

  they wanted to get to and that we fail [TS]

  to get to applaud them for trying to [TS]

  write a story outside of continuity but [TS]

  in DC every time you try that you just [TS]

  created an entire new version of its own [TS]

  continuity it's impossible [TS]

  my only other thing to say about it was [TS]

  just that the the one character that I [TS]

  had any real emotional connection to in [TS]

  this was Wonder Woman yeah [TS]

  simply because when I was a kid I had a [TS]

  book it wasn't even a comic book it was [TS]

  like a hardcover [TS]

  in children's book and I think it might [TS]

  even come with a tape that you could [TS]

  play along with it manager about the the [TS]

  origin of wonder woman and I thought [TS]

  that's the only marvel or DC comic book [TS]

  thing that I had in my life for decades [TS]

  and but i loved it I loved it so much so [TS]

  I've always sort of had this affinity [TS]

  for wonder woman even though don't [TS]

  actually know how she developed in the [TS]

  real comic books so I got to this and I [TS]

  just sort of had this sort of ephemeral [TS]

  picture in my head and then there was [TS]

  this one woman who is so much more real [TS]

  and stark and she had emotional issues [TS]

  going on there is turmoil inside her and [TS]

  her life outside was not going great and [TS]

  I i think it was really good it but I [TS]

  have very mixed emotions about it [TS]

  because I want her to be my you know [TS]

  happy perfect lady but on the other hand [TS]

  I want characters to be interesting and [TS]

  that you know diverse and it have have [TS]

  issues and have troubles because that's [TS]

  the way the world works so I I want to [TS]

  just give a thumbs-up to wonder woman [TS]

  here because she was a pretty detailed [TS]

  layered character that was not what I [TS]

  was expecting but i think was refreshing [TS]

  to me as a reader [TS]

  alright well I feel like we have reached [TS]

  we have reached the end lots of alex [TS]

  ross art to digest i enjoyed Marvel's [TS]

  more in the reread but i think the [TS]

  marvels is a it's easy to enjoy Marvel's [TS]

  more because it is that without [TS]

  widescreen big splash pages and [TS]

  nostalgia trip it whereas Kingdom Come [TS]

  is this super detailed compressed story [TS]

  they're very they are very different [TS]

  despite the fact that i always group [TS]

  them together because when they came out [TS]

  when i discovered them in the fact that [TS]

  the artist so similar because it's the [TS]

  same guy but they are very different [TS]

  ones backward-looking was kind of [TS]

  forward-looking and I guess now from the [TS]

  perspective of not in the nineties [TS]

  sideways looking but really interesting [TS]

  both of them and I i was glad to to [TS]

  revisit them and I was glad that you all [TS]

  were here to visit them with me so [TS]

  thanks to everybody [TS]

  I'm now thank you intern because that is [TS]

  my style as a host of a podcast Monty [TS]

  Ashley you were here and I thank you for [TS]

  it [TS]

  the face front true true believer fair [TS]

  enough moisture jaan you were also here [TS]

  and I [TS]

  thank you for it thank you for having me [TS]

  this is a wonderful breath of fresh air [TS]

  to to myself being in the middle of a [TS]

  massive crossover on crossovers epic on [TS]

  my own comment yes and please visit DSN [TS]

  dot FM i will i will give you a link [TS]

  with to the beginning of this [TS]

  never-ending series of crossovers [TS]

  shadownet I'm sold [TS]

  Moises has many podcasts their chips [TS]

  utter thank you for joining us you were [TS]

  also present tonight up a jumble of [TS]

  images a cacophony of apocalyptic verse [TS]

  and still makes so little sense [TS]

  Lisa Schmeisser that you love you too [TS]

  are you two were present surprise you [TS]

  were here too [TS]

  hello there well put and Erica and sign [TS]

  you you to participate tonight thank you [TS]

  excelsior oh well played [TS]

  I think she wins yes i think so you got [TS]

  it you've got to do the Stanley voice or [TS]

  doesn't have as much punch XL Shiar ok [TS]

  not being very good at stanley the [TS]

  official movie actor of Willie lump get [TS]

  as CNN marbles [TS]

  yes soon markets exactly right and I i [TS]

  I'm Jason I was also here and now i'm [TS]

  going to go away as is this podcast you [TS]

  stay tuned or whatever is next in your [TS]

  podcast app this is the incomparable [TS]

  stay tuned for the flophouse or negative [TS]

  force for whatever [TS]