The Talk Show

139: ‘How Many Fingers Should This Baby Have?’, With Special Guests Craig Federighi and John Siracusa

 

  now I always end up seeking back to figure out what part I missed where [TS]

  where the podcast started to realize it just starts it is how it goes Craig it [TS]

  is so we add this is a great thrill for me to be speaking to you [TS]

  craig Venter et senior vice president of software engineering was the company [TS]

  Apple Apple Apple yes and we are talking on the occasion of the open sourcing of [TS]

  Swift which went live last week what day was it last week was last thursday was a [TS]

  knit yeah it's a huge yeah yeah it's better was it was incredibly exciting [TS]

  for us yes so we're speaking as we speak it's about a week later so how do you [TS]

  think this first week of swift as an open source project is gone [TS]

  yeah really really well i mean the the level of activity on on get home buyers [TS]

  is off the charts I mean we we've had really high aspirations for swift from [TS]

  the beginning but at every step it's been pretty amazing for us how much [TS]

  bigger it's gone and we could have could have ever hoped and I think already on [TS]

  github were more active project then I think all the other languages that are [TS]

  on get help which is just just incredible for first we can go over [TS]

  60,000 people have taken a clone of the project so it's it's it's pretty amazing [TS]

  and the team is just ecstatic over the whole thing there's different ways for a [TS]

  big company especially a big company to do [TS]

  quote-unquote open source project there's sort of like yes technically [TS]

  it's open source but it's really just sort of a zip file with a open source [TS]

  license and there goes you have at it [TS]

  and then there's the actively engaging in a community manner with the outer [TS]

  world and i'd so when you guys announced a double-double PCs with to be open [TS]

  source I think there was some skeptics who thought maybe it was going to be a [TS]

  while technically it's open source in here it is but this is really like [TS]

  full-throttle fully engaged with the world outside Cupertino yeah I mean it's [TS]

  funny I guess there there always will be skeptics but anyone who's been watching [TS]

  our team in the context of the yellow VMworld climbing lol debe entender [TS]

  WebKit team would see how much developing in the open is the the spirit [TS]

  of those teams and so the swift team has been among the most engaged with our [TS]

  developer community of any group in Apple even even prior to open sourcing [TS]

  in terms of from the first launch of our Announcements with 10 in the App Store I [TS]

  mean at the wEDC and how much they were engaging with all the feedback that was [TS]

  coming in and modifying the language right up to 21 . oh and beyond and this [TS]

  is really an extension of how the only way they really have ever wanted to work [TS]

  and so yeah they they are very excited to be working completely in the open and [TS]

  it really is a case where as in all the features in in swift that will be [TS]

  announcing officially to the world and our next developer conference [TS]

  you know you can sort of see them unfold before your eyes in the time leading up [TS]

  to that as they're working on the open on github just like everything else [TS]

  Apple does very very similar to everything else we do that's the thing [TS]

  that to me is most and I know that you know get home makes it easy to track all [TS]

  these changes and see how many people are involved but to me that if you just [TS]

  wanna quick look at just how much this is a collaboration between the swift [TS]

  team at Apple and the outside world it's the swift evolution mailing list [TS]

  where you know you guys have been up front about this right from swift 1.0 in [TS]

  2014 that this is not a finished language we didn't you know you didnt go [TS]

  and finish a language and here it is [TS]

  have added you know we are still working on this a lot of what we're going to be [TS]

  working on is tell us what what you need here on the mailing list there are [TS]

  people actively engaging and and employees from Apple you know Chris [TS]

  Lattner in the people on Steam are fully engaging with these ideas and proposals [TS]

  that are coming from outside the company already one week one week into it being [TS]

  an open source project oh yeah i i really think our team is really seasoned [TS]

  team in the world of of developing languages and and we know that a [TS]

  language really can't be developed in the vacuum it's it is a product of of [TS]

  how people use it the problems that people are trying to solve and so we [TS]

  knew from the outset was swift 10 that we could come up with the language that [TS]

  first step you have to crystallize your basic ideas and have a starting point [TS]

  but we knew we needed feedback then to work toward the language that that [TS]

  ultimately Swift has and has become and will become the future but that we we [TS]

  needed to have this kind of open open dialogue open sourcing is as you say [TS]

  just really accelerating and deepening the kind of be back that that we're [TS]

  getting in so it's it's really energizing for us I think it's really [TS]

  exciting for a lot of the developers in our community as well be a part of it [TS]

  what are the other reasons too [TS]

  to go open source with with a new programming language you know when we [TS]

  talked about it just briefly wEDC I think we laid out the big ones which [TS]

  which are for us [TS]

  Swift is we think the primary programming language that developers [TS]

  should be taught to programming in actually mean if you're gonna learn [TS]

  computer science Swift is a fantastic learning language [TS]

  and if you're a developer who is going to invest huge part of your career in in [TS]

  mastering swift and developing codons with your gonna want the ability to use [TS]

  that code in every context possible to use your skill in that language in all [TS]

  the environments in which you have to work to do your job so whether your [TS]

  script in your build system writing web services of course writing your mobile [TS]

  applications we want to make sure that that's you can invest in swift in that [TS]

  way and know that it's going to be available to you [TS]

  everywhere and so we saw open sourcing as a critical element tool make swift [TS]

  reach its potential to be to be language the major language for the next twenty [TS]

  years of programming in our industry it's a really ambitious goal it is it is [TS]

  but i i think you know at every point along the way is this this has been our [TS]

  vision from before we first unleashed Swift on the world but at every step [TS]

  actually the reaction has really outdone our expectations so maybe our goal isn't [TS]

  so outlandish do you think that I would say that that for education purposes it [TS]

  really has to be open source because there's really no way that language is [TS]

  going to take take root as a teaching language if its proprietary to Apple [TS]

  platform or any other you know [TS]

  vendors platform right you know we had a lot of universities who would teach a [TS]

  specialized mobile programming course on iOS programming course in that context [TS]

  of course they teach swift and and Stanford has an outstanding courses on [TS]

  iTunes you about programming in Swift 22 program on iOS [TS]

  but when it comes to bringing in the core curriculum that every student in [TS]

  the University acetate to let's say learn computer science making an open [TS]

  source having it available to every student on whatever platform they're [TS]

  going to use to do their work is is we we think ultimately huge enabler and so [TS]

  many of the people we talked to the professors wanted to use the language in [TS]

  these ways but they needed it to be open source for this to happen and so we're [TS]

  really excited to follow through with them on this why not open source it what [TS]

  what were the downsides that were debated before you decide you know made [TS]

  the decision to go with it you know that there really weren't [TS]

  of course talked it over [TS]

  linked with a tough time coming up with a significant reason not to do it it was [TS]

  more a when question is is it now and we knew after 10 that that we weren't quite [TS]

  there that we wanted to get that first round of feedback begin to stabilize the [TS]

  definition of a language but as we got close to WWDC this last year we realized [TS]

  we were where we needed to be to take a step that we knew was was gonna happen [TS]

  it was going to be this year was going to be that the following year and and we [TS]

  realized we were where we needed to be and so we we moved ahead and the hunger [TS]

  out there [TS]

  was was so great we thought let's let's do it now but but the downsides are are [TS]

  really limited I mean I think it's it's inevitable but positive that Swift will [TS]

  be used in all kinds of context outside of Apple that's that's kind of the point [TS]

  so that's fine it's clear we're gonna get a lot of people wanting to do things [TS]

  with the language that are directly related to Apple's line of business and [TS]

  that's ok right that's that's actually fine as well so they're just there [TS]

  weren't a lot of down sides and and we think the up sides are tremendous one of [TS]

  the areas that I would I think it's definitely I see so much excitement [TS]

  about it already is in terms of being cross platform is the use of Swift on [TS]

  servers yes and you know a lot of that is certainly going to be limits and you [TS]

  guys have already done the port to Linux that's right and and that's that's an [TS]

  area where I feel like I have no idea why I feel like it's going to be used [TS]

  but i just so we're clear we don't know where that's going to be but do you do [TS]

  you see that happening that it's going to be used for a lot of server-based [TS]

  development that's really outside Apple's platforms oh totally yeah I mean [TS]

  you know from really the out said IBM for instance jumped all over swift for [TS]

  building their mobile apps and almost immediately they were coming back to us [TS]

  with we really want to use this on the server how can we can we get this on the [TS]

  server and of course with an Apple is tremendous passion for swift and our own [TS]

  iCloud team has been completely chomping at the bit to be able to apply it in in [TS]

  many many of the things they do [TS]

  so I think it's it's going to be the first among the first country gal uses [TS]

  of swift and of course these days so many mobile applications are part mobile [TS]

  app part server code and a lot of cases you you the very least want to share [TS]

  your knowledge but very often you wanna share parts your code parts your model [TS]

  layers are you till the library she wants and and having swift enabling you [TS]

  to do that is going to be huge for a lot of our community [TS]

  I can definitely see that that to me is sort of the building for the future [TS]

  various aspects of Swift vs say Objective C which has roots from 20 or [TS]

  even thirty years ago and yet the fact that the the cloud of everyone I call it [TS]

  but you know client software running on a device talking to servers some are [TS]

  often internet is part of why I would save almost certainly the overwhelming [TS]

  majority of apps that are being written for these platforms that having a [TS]

  language that makes sense in both ends of the communication is huge [TS]

  exactly exactly and you know if you if you look at where I think it is for a [TS]

  lot of developers prior to Swift they probably were using Objective C if they [TS]

  had high performance code they had to write part of objective Cesc and so they [TS]

  were dropping down into see to do some of the more optimized work which can be [TS]

  almost another language there's a real continuum there within the environment [TS]

  they might have been using a scripting language for part of what they do and [TS]

  then they might be using a server-side language like Java and swift is uniquely [TS]

  capable of spanning from really easy and natural kind of scripting expressive [TS]

  uses its a great application programming language but it was also designed to be [TS]

  a great systems language and be really fast so that you can do see kind of high [TS]

  performance work without compromises in swift and then it's gonna work in in the [TS]

  cloud as well so [TS]

  I think it's going to really unified environment for a lot of developers is a [TS]

  how would you describe systems language addison's disease rate from the one of [TS]

  my note here from the swift programming language it says Swift is intended to be [TS]

  quote the first industrial quality systems programming language that is [TS]

  expressive an enjoyable as a scripting language designed to scale from hello [TS]

  world to an entire operating system but what does systems programming language [TS]

  well there there's there's some some low-level bits and and some matters of [TS]

  spirit I think in terms of low-level bits with has a very predictable memory [TS]

  management model a very very contained runtime if you look at traditional [TS]

  scripting languages or languages like Java there they run garbage collectors [TS]

  you really can't control memory in a way so swift builds on our our technology [TS]

  that first came to Objective C [TS]

  to provide really high performance and really predictable and manageable memory [TS]

  management which means that if you wanted to write everything from an [TS]

  operating system kernel to high-performance graphics library you [TS]

  could do that without inheriting a huge per process memory footprint overhead [TS]

  and you see that when you see how Apple's OS and apps are able to run in a [TS]

  lower memory footprint and we're able to ship devices with her memory footprints [TS]

  then competitors who use language that don't have this characteristic but Swift [TS]

  is also designed so that when it can be fast it's as fast as can be so we aren't [TS]

  taking the overhead of dynamic dispatch for every call but yeah we can provide [TS]

  dynamism when when needed [TS]

  we can optimize you use an array and swift we can be every bit is optimal and [TS]

  do [TS]

  vectorization and parallelization in ways that you would expect from after my [TS]

  C code but a very hard to do if you were trying to optimize Ruby or Python or [TS]

  even in Objective C you know NSArray built on top of the Foundation Classes [TS]

  and so you can go very very low level and get very predictable performance [TS]

  audio hardware so in other words it's at least comparisons compared to Objective [TS]

  C that objective see there's so many great things we could say about it it's [TS]

  served you know Apple so incredibly well it still will for the foreseeable future [TS]

  in so many ways but there's this big butt which is that sometimes you need to [TS]

  drop down into C C++ and now you're losing all of the stuff that you love [TS]

  about Objective C because you need to drop down temporarily for performance [TS]

  reasons and swift don't need to do that you can write a high-performance code [TS]

  right in there that's right i mean swift I think one of them we first introduce [TS]

  swift we we said we're imagining a world where we took we loved about Objective C [TS]

  without caring for the baggage of see what that man is swift has to replace [TS]

  see in its role in Objective C programming and it does that really well [TS]

  while bringing all of these higher levels of abstraction and higher [TS]

  productivity programming techniques to writing that kind of high-performance [TS]

  systems code but also so great for poor out code so one thing that Swift is not [TS]

  a mean and I think we've already covered this but it's not Objective C with [TS]

  prettier better syntex and it's the syntax of objective see that people find [TS]

  off-putting at least at first and I know that you know [TS]

  that's a debate that the people who love objectives he interviewed that for [TS]

  decades [TS]

  you know it's a never-ending argument but at least at first even if you really [TS]

  really love Objective C you after you can't avoid the fact that at first it [TS]

  looked weird huh [TS]

  admit I i'm Objective C lover and I i you know there were plenty of good [TS]

  debates internally about you know should we have a small talk inspired syntax [TS]

  should we should we stick with something like Objective C but but it is a in the [TS]

  end it can go either way and what we were able to retain in swift are the [TS]

  these serve literate nature of API's that Objective C enable the readability [TS]

  of code with the labeled arguments and we brought all of that too swift while [TS]

  the same time having a sin tax that is just much more concise and at this point [TS]

  with the the server evolution of people's expectations are on programming [TS]

  languages just much more natural for them is is part of the thinking there [TS]

  that in terms of the small talk inspired dynamic runtime that you didn't need a [TS]

  new language do that because you already have Objective C and that you can go you [TS]

  know that for the future for the next twenty years that that sort of that sort [TS]

  of model of looking at frameworks and programming languages isn't the best way [TS]

  to go from here going forward [TS]

  no i would i would really separate I know it's I would separate the the [TS]

  syntax from some of the underline aspects of the runtime and the [TS]

  programming model [TS]

  swift you know some of my favorite features from Objective C are things [TS]

  like protocols categories which it was in swift are called extensions and those [TS]

  literate API's as well as first-class classes with with class methods all of [TS]

  these things that are so important for us to build great API's and great [TS]

  extensible frameworks were were brought to swift along with things like labeled [TS]

  arguments and slowly we've also been bringing back much of the dynamism now [TS]

  there's some things that are possible in Objective C and most the dynamism that [TS]

  you really want is the ability to figure out what class is this really be able to [TS]

  cast the class dynamically to a particular protocol to be able to do a [TS]

  lack of response to select to perform selector check all these things are [TS]

  possible and swift today [TS]

  enter some other things that aren't but that certainly we consider important [TS]

  ultimately brain bring to the language so this thing about a dynamic [TS]

  programming model is is still very important to us now the some very unsafe [TS]

  things that people do in Objective C and I've been guilty of this myself where [TS]

  you walk the objective here on time and hack the method table and that's cool [TS]

  but it is it is highly unsafe and doesn't lead to very maintainable [TS]

  scalable large programs some of those techniques but the vast vast majority [TS]

  what makes Objective C great and dynamic is is part of either part of Swift now [TS]

  or certainly part of our ongoing ambition for the language but the thing [TS]

  we didn't want to bring from Objective C is that in Objective C you're paying the [TS]

  overhead of that dynamism all the time you know you're trying to use an array [TS]

  or some some class and you've got the compiler with both hands tied behind its [TS]

  back in terms of opportunities for optimization [TS]

  and therefore seen the developer to then modify the way they've written their [TS]

  code maybe drop down to see for something where performance matters for [TS]

  swift because it's safer has more type information it gives the compiler what [TS]

  it needs to optimize when it can but that that alone doesn't stand in the way [TS]

  of all the in my opinion all the dynamism that matters in layman's terms [TS]

  and probably been a long time since I program particularly but I think that [TS]

  the big difference is that with with Objective C what you mean you know [TS]

  people may not even know what a runtime is more like what it means is you [TS]

  compile the abbot starts running and a lot of the stuff gets decided within the [TS]

  app while it's running and with swift by by doing these things at compile time in [TS]

  knowing more of the type information forcing you to to to be a little more [TS]

  specific about the type information up front it it it enables the compiler to [TS]

  do more efficient things before the ABA's even running because it's it's [TS]

  happening at the time that the app is compiled that's right that's right in [TS]

  the new permits all kinds of optimizations because maybe if the [TS]

  compiler can determine ahead of time said absolutely this object you're about [TS]

  to message is that a certain type and we know it's done whole module optimization [TS]

  and we know what the result of that what that method is sometimes the compiler [TS]

  could even in line the implementation in even involve the overhead a function [TS]

  call so I let alone a dynamic method dispatch and so you really that's that's [TS]

  part of how you can get these incredible you know and optimize see kinds of [TS]

  performance numbers out of what looks at you get to write as as very high level [TS]

  code so swift I think has a really excellent balance there but the key is [TS]

  we still have a runtime where you can look at your classes and and introspect [TS]

  down and and there's there's more of more of that coming with which partly is [TS]

  is on an open road map and partly is you know and in terms of the framework for [TS]

  the operating system obviously is the sort of thing to be able to talk about [TS]

  in advance because that's not the stuff that that open source that's right i [TS]

  mean some of it honestly you will you will see us bringing up over the course [TS]

  of the coming months in the context the open source project because certain [TS]

  things that that our team is well will take on will will bring them forward as [TS]

  proposals to the open source community and then you'll see a start to implement [TS]

  them so I don't wanna I wanna jump the gun and pronounce everything that the [TS]

  team is thinking but as soon as they have already pronounced a bunch of the [TS]

  things you know big big part of focus we want to make sure was clear right out of [TS]

  the gates with swift was that the golf course with three was really to [TS]

  stabilize the binary interface and to refine the API's and finalize our API [TS]

  guidelines in all of those things because we want I think I think its the [TS]

  the next important step is to really stabilize the language and the [TS]

  environment for for community and that's a that's a big task one of the things [TS]

  that's been so great about Objective C is it has this great stability where [TS]

  that have enabled us to write frameworks with minor compatible interfaces release [TS]

  of her release release something that languages like C++ really can get right [TS]

  and we absolutely need to bring that to to Swift so we've we've brought forward [TS]

  some of those goals but there are other things of course that will be [TS]

  added to the 30 ambitions as time goes on over the coming months [TS]

  one of the complaints I've seen and I am part of this is just it it impossible to [TS]

  avoid I think with with how early in its evolution Swift was unveiled to the [TS]

  world but that i've what i've seen from developer friend and just commentary on [TS]

  the internet is that it's hard right now to write a large-scale application in [TS]

  swift Apple AAPL has more people working on cocoa apps than any other company in [TS]

  the world for obvious reasons you know how has the feedback from the internal [TS]

  developers the people you know that people who work for you the engineers [TS]

  who work for you [TS]

  with extensive experience shipping user facing apps shape the direction of Swift [TS]

  from 1.0 to what went on a road map for 3.0 yeah well I mean of course there [TS]

  elements we have all all types here with an apple red just like there there are [TS]

  people that are like the external community objective you know they start [TS]

  out with the I love Objective C I don't wanna change to ok hold on maybe there's [TS]

  something to this with thing to let me give it a try to my god I love it and so [TS]

  they've we've gone through all the phases internally you know we've had [TS]

  some really great adoption by teams like the team that does the doc and window [TS]

  management analyst and who converted [TS]

  implemented all their new features 40 capitan in in swift and started mass [TS]

  converting all their code and say that they just couldn't imagine going back [TS]

  and that they're they're more productive with it [TS]

  part part of what our internal teams need to deal with though is that there [TS]

  were keen on let's say the current version of Swift 2.0 while it's not done [TS]

  yet and so it's it's a meanwhile it's not even WWDC level done yet right and [TS]

  so and they're working on the interfaces in terms of our internal frameworks that [TS]

  haven't been modernized for swift and so it can be you know they they they get it [TS]

  rough they gotta go to really love it too [TS]

  to make that leap because they're working on a very very bleeding edge [TS]

  environment when we use an internally thankfully with with with 2.0 now you [TS]

  know well out the door [TS]

  that's that's stabilize things are good bit and they're really open to it but [TS]

  there's there's been just a lot of feedback and a lot of it has helped with [TS]

  the impedance making sure the impedance between Objective C and swift is is [TS]

  absolutely minimize because of course we have and will continue to have continued [TS]

  writing more Objective C code and so the ability of swift and Objective C code to [TS]

  work together completely naturally is is a huge focus and a bunch of things like [TS]

  Generic elections support for for lightweight generics in Objective C [TS]

  where a big pain point internally and something that we fixed in language and [TS]

  is now great for all of our oliver app developers externally so it's it's been [TS]

  out it's been a not dissimilar road for us internally does to what you see [TS]

  outside but in terms of swift and and and riding big absence certainly the [TS]

  case that once with 10 came out and didn't we didn't support incremental [TS]

  compilation and the very first updating so that was that was gonna be a limiting [TS]

  factor for productivity for four people that the gaps a lot of that stuff has [TS]

  changed and then in 2.0 having a good error handling model [TS]

  availability check so you could span API versions these sorts of things really [TS]

  address the vast majority of the pain points that that we were experienced in [TS]

  that I think the community was experiencing about writing larger apps [TS]

  and so much routes which is actually inherently better for building big gaps [TS]

  because it makes it handles handles modules and namespaces in a way more [TS]

  naturally in Objective C it makes the API contracts a little more clear the [TS]

  code more maintainable so we're very comfortable objective season namespace [TS]

  management was more or less let's just all agree to put unique initial right [TS]

  that it's amazing it's taken us this far but yes yes that is basically when the [TS]

  answer here so yes exactly it is you know I don't think I don't think maybe [TS]

  the bar wasn't that high exactly we have halted over it how do you manage as as [TS]

  the cheap mofo in charge of all this how do how do you manage the enthusiasm that [TS]

  you could we have for swift and and the word to me seems to like a sincere [TS]

  belief that Swift is the way forward with the necessary conservative news [TS]

  that you need you know so that there still has to be a lot of objective see [TS]

  written how aggressive can you be about putting teams on sure go ahead and do [TS]

  that swept you know it's it's it's really mean people here are idealistic [TS]

  yet really pragmatic and I think you see that as a as an apple characteristic in [TS]

  in many many elements of of what we what we do and so teams know with the nature [TS]

  of of what we're trying to get done in their area any given year the nature of [TS]

  their code base whether Swift is the right answer for them or where it's the [TS]

  right answer even teams where for one reason or the other they can't jump [TS]

  right on Objective C or rather subject to see conversion to Swift now they then [TS]

  you Swift heavily for writing all the unit test which is great because then at [TS]

  least as they're introducing new API's they're experiencing their own API's in [TS]

  swift [TS]

  and leaving on you know sort of serving their own dog food in that regard we do [TS]

  have some constraints internally which which were dressing but because we may [TS]

  be made the something in our closet a little bit but we we still support [TS]

  running 32 bit apps on the Mac and the 32 bit runtime doesn't actually supports [TS]

  with right now and so what that means is if we've implemented a framework that's [TS]

  available to 32 bit code we actually can write it and swift and that code of that [TS]

  framework is used across iOS and OS 10 as many other frameworks are that [TS]

  introduces a little stumbling block as well so you know teams recognize what's [TS]

  practical and what's not practical and find ways to use with wherever they can [TS]

  is no no shortage of of enthusiastic I this has been so geeky and so far the [TS]

  best possible way I I really enjoyed I loved my eyesight did a whole round of [TS]

  interviews last week and I read them all and I don't want to cover the same [TS]

  ground and I don't think we did I think this is this is truly truly eye-opening [TS]

  to me and i really appreciate your time but I really appreciate the openness is [TS]

  there anything else you want to say before before we wrap up the segment [TS]

  anything else you want to talk about with swift I just wanna say how you know [TS]

  to to to the world or at least the subset of the world that listens to your [TS]

  podcast which must be most of them that how how proud I am of the team that's [TS]

  made swift possible reports there's Chris Lattner buddies is part of an [TS]

  incredible team with with folks like Ted criminal conduct Gregor and even people [TS]

  Swift is what we have an incredible compiler team we've also got people who [TS]

  have been writing deep frameworks and apps with an Apple 444 in some cases [TS]

  since the beginning of next step [TS]

  I mean people like Ali Ozer you may know from his talks at watc [TS]

  has been so vital in shaping the language and how the language with its [TS]

  are frameworks and fits the needs of our developers and I'm just so thrilled with [TS]

  the work that all of them do in the passion that they put into making swift [TS]

  to success I just want to get that out there for everyone because we're in [TS]

  their hundreds hundreds more behind them an incredible effort by our team would [TS]

  you agree with this would I think that Apple is in a unique position to achieve [TS]

  what you guys have set out to do which is to make it like the default language [TS]

  that people might learn to program on for the next few decade [TS]

  unique position to make that happen because you have these platforms [TS]

  specially iOS but the Mac the watch anything else that might be coming in [TS]

  the future TV TV TV TV that are so popular under such a draw that they've [TS]

  made Objective C you know like the second or third most popular programming [TS]

  language on some of these you know the lists of YA books people which i think [TS]

  the Someone Like You has been you know was started in the next days you know [TS]

  with you would have found out that in the year 2015 Objective C is second most [TS]

  popular language you believed it right [TS]

  a language that there's some initial reluctance of people to you know to get [TS]

  on board with now there's this language that is so approachable and and really [TS]

  almost has text level you know when you're talking about like hello world [TS]

  type stuff really almost looks like pure pseudocode yeah that Apple is in the [TS]

  unique position where the draw is there with the platforms to really really make [TS]

  this exploding popularity consider any better I i think we we when we created [TS]

  swift we what we wanted it of course to be a great language we also from the [TS]

  outset want it to be a great language for [TS]

  for our platforms and the fact that it and and embody the lessons that we [TS]

  learned from creating so many deep frameworks and great apps over so many [TS]

  years and what that man is on day one swift was what what wasn't a restart for [TS]

  the community it wasn't a hey will let me learn a whole new set of frameworks [TS]

  on the way for Apple to create a whole new set of frameworks Swift has been [TS]

  this this automatic transmission for people who wanted to maybe who are new [TS]

  to our platform and one to get started the whole world was open to them our [TS]

  platform and I think that's been so huge to driving the energy around it and then [TS]

  others have been drawn in just by the greatness of swift as it is I mean it's [TS]

  amazing the script language conferences where people talking about different [TS]

  functional programming paradigms and swift and all these different things you [TS]

  can do with the language just based on what an amazing new language it is so [TS]

  you bring those two communities together and it's it's magic right now thank you [TS]

  so much Craig I really appreciate the time yeah thank you john so honored to [TS]

  speak with you so thank you so much that I miss him you know what [TS]

  since that ran has the first segment I might as well just jump right into a [TS]

  sponsor read which I was definitely not going to do middle of the correct [TS]

  battery totally should he would have just SAT there patiently I feel like I [TS]

  could have done anything he was incredibly gracious it was absolutely I [TS]

  expected him to be nice but he's no very nice [TS]

  let me tell you about our good friends at Casper you guys know casper the [TS]

  company's URL I frequently get wrong and I won't today these guys make [TS]

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  just the right thing just the right amount you don't have to sit there and [TS]

  go through their website and pick three different types of mattresses you want [TS]

  to bring you want memory foam latex now these guys are mattress experts to Apple [TS]

  of of mattresses where they figured it out themselves and they sell one type of [TS]

  mattress it's their own custom blend of latex foam memory foam that has just the [TS]

  right thing just a rebound seat on tour but I do is pick what size what size you [TS]

  want you want to queen size you want king size you want when size whatever [TS]

  you need as you do you go to the website order it comes to your house in little [TS]

  box put in a room opening up in a mix of soaks up the air narrative now you say I [TS]

  don't wanna buy a mattress without trying it risk-free you get a hundred [TS]

  days to try sleeping on this on your actual bed in your actual house hundred [TS]

  days and if you don't like it it's painless return you just go to the [TS]

  website online they'll take care of those send somebody in your house and [TS]

  get this mattress house couldn't be easier there's no hard sell if you [TS]

  decide to send it back [TS]

  could not be easier mattresses are made in America and the prices are [TS]

  unbelievable 500 bucks for twin size mattress up to 950 for a king size [TS]

  mattress if you shop for a premium king size mattress last few years you know [TS]

  how great a price point that is I think it's fair to say that that's about half [TS]

  the price that you would pay for premium mattress at like a retail mattress store [TS]

  so really really great could not be easier you know have to go to the store [TS]

  you don't have to get this mattress only known to wait it couldn't be easier [TS]

  where do you go find out more let me get this right [TS]

  casper dot com slash talk-show casper dot com slash talk show if you want to [TS]

  get a mattress and talk about great holiday gift ideas buoyed by some money [TS]

  matters is about as good as it gets but one under the Christmas tree use that [TS]

  you are out and you will save 50 bucks off those prices I just told you about [TS]

  your kids new mattresses for Christmas at Casper Dr so here is just the also [TS]

  have people probably wondering how did craig Venter et end up on the talk show [TS]

  and what happened was Apple got in touch with me when they started doing the I [TS]

  guess it was a couple of days actually before with the open source and was [TS]

  actually announced on Monday started reaching out to the press they asked [TS]

  whether I'd be interested in having him on the podcast house yeah just let me [TS]

  check my schedule I don't know who might be my ultimate beyond that we can I [TS]

  can't bump him I was like oh yeah and so no real ground rules you know it was [TS]

  very similar to 2010 shoulder was on the live show back at the BBC it wasn't a [TS]

  date they wanted questions in advance or anything like that they're only request [TS]

  was you know that it be limited to you know somewhere around twenty minutes or [TS]

  so I think the fact that we went about 30 or 35 minutes probably acceptable in [TS]

  their time limit [TS]

  well I did I was absolutely watching the clock what we talked and I felt like [TS]

  when we were rolling up around 20 it really felt like he was having a good [TS]

  time he was very comfortable and I think that was definitely did you know apple [TS]

  peels concern would be you know they want to limit his exposure in case it [TS]

  was not comfortable which i think is reasonable [TS]

  yeah I wonder if they would cut you off like nothing you wanna run that [TS]

  experiment but they said you know we gotta wrap this up or more questions [TS]

  probably cuz you know Bill Evans from was listening in and was there so I i [TS]

  would suspect that if I went nuts and just kept him hanging you probably [TS]

  woulda texted me or something like that like button friendly yeah just talking [TS]

  about open sourcing swift and how bad again right to just talk about [TS]

  programming a couple of nerds having a conversation [TS]

  yea well I'll tell you I would love to hear your thoughts on the interview [TS]

  because in this is really you know I'm telling you right now you were my just [TS]

  the right term [TS]

  my spirit animal going into the interview I thought okay twenty or [TS]

  thirty minutes in my mind if if if I can make Syracuse a half happy with this [TS]

  interview then I'll consider my job but that type of your stuff I think because [TS]

  they've got Craig making the rounds to the tech press to talk about open source [TS]

  with you know essentially what his job is doing that press tour to its to tell [TS]

  everyone how great is that during this thing right [TS]

  well i i would say to vote first to tell you about how great Swift is and then [TS]

  second is how great it is that they're making it open source right but like his [TS]

  job on that press tour is not to do what I think a lot of people might want out [TS]

  of an interview whether it be podcast or text which is especially programmers and [TS]

  especially the direction that you took your interview with Craig getting more [TS]

  technical and everything is people want to have not in a mean way but in a sort [TS]

  of using that old style way an argument about programming guy who is in charge [TS]

  of a really big platform that a lot of people working for like this not like [TS]

  him you want to debate whether I don't know what you wanna talk to the guy [TS]

  who's in charge now finally I get to sort of you know complain about square [TS]

  brackets are tabs vs spaces or my pet peeve in swift or the App Store whatever [TS]

  you like [TS]

  and I think that's more pronounced with Apple people because Apple has in the [TS]

  past tended not to make the important decision makers especially important [TS]

  technical people available to the public in anyway so there was no other venue [TS]

  for you to you know where your grievances like you got to talk to the [TS]

  people who were the most polished the highest level and if your concern was [TS]

  about some minor feature of some framework created by and you couldn't [TS]

  corner someone in a hallway W W C you there was no venue for that so i think i [TS]

  mean that's changing now as as you discussed in the interview but a lot of [TS]

  people might go into this thinking that they're gonna hear like they want to be [TS]

  more adversarial but like it I think I think it's impossible to be adversarial [TS]

  Craig nice person in the universe if he ever yelled at people in meetings you [TS]

  would never know it from saying anything he doesn't like it seems just like a [TS]

  super nice guy there's the attic and upbeat and positive all the time so [TS]

  you're not going to have that with him and be that's not the purpose of the [TS]

  press tour so it's a waste of time for you to do that you use that time much [TS]

  more valuable to engage in interesting conversation that start topping I think [TS]

  he did that is the same way I approach the interviews sure where it's very [TS]

  difficult questions that in theory I would like to ask Mike if I could get [TS]

  them on the stand under oath and make them answer questions there are very [TS]

  interesting questions that I would like to ask that if I did ask and they [TS]

  weren't under oath that I don't think they would answer and I don't want to [TS]

  waste time on questions that they're not going to answer so for example I'm not [TS]

  going to try to pick up his mind about you know whether they need a new kernel [TS]

  a real-time operating system for the car to be a fruitful avenue conversation [TS]

  exactly and in addition to the fact that he obviously isn't going to answer that [TS]

  and we can talk about it and even if I wanted to get cute and say you know [TS]

  theoretically of course you know but you know that there's real time [TS]

  considerations for something like a car that you don't have with these consumer [TS]

  devices like it is not going to get into it and the second thing in addition to [TS]

  wasting precious time is I feel like asking questions like that would [TS]

  immediately raise their shields like wow [TS]

  stupid question that I can't answer now I've gotta be careful that I did you [TS]

  know I want them to feel like hey this is going well and it's they're not [TS]

  necessarily softball questions but that their questions that I this sort of [TS]

  thing I was hoping to talk about the and the thing is in this in this particular [TS]

  rounds with specifically in the open source effort we've seen through their [TS]

  actions they are being much more open with swift and the open-source [TS]

  everything they've ever been before in terms of telling you what they're going [TS]

  to do in the future and having public road maps and during development in the [TS]

  open you kind of brothers up an individual like how this development is [TS]

  out in the open and he and Craig's I'll almost everything but the contrast that [TS]

  you could have you know maybe this would have been put on a defense contractor [TS]

  something like the the Darwin open source release has been open source in [TS]

  the beginning but it just hasn't been developed in the same way and maybe it [TS]

  can't be for a variety of reasons because this is too much [TS]

  proprietary stuff revealing their plans for you know whatever devices and stuff [TS]

  they're they're gonna make in the future but they they're so much more open and [TS]

  he was moribund here saying oh yeah we're going to have these features in [TS]

  this is you know we're gonna have more things like this but I'm WBC rolls [TS]

  around when his any Apple that they would you tell you they're going to have [TS]

  a new battery charger to tell you anything about the future that he was [TS]

  promising specific things but sort of in the vague sort of this is kind of what [TS]

  we're thinking kind of what we're planning because I think it's understood [TS]

  especially within the realm of these elements are things you can see it [TS]

  happening like if it did not available a mystery why you'll see everything will [TS]

  check in every single debate on the mailing list and WC comes around only be [TS]

  ready here it won't and when everyone can see it that no one's gonna be like [TS]

  you promised this thing by WC and we still can do it why you didn't get done [TS]

  or there was debate about how it should be done or whatever it's having that [TS]

  stuff in the open just makes it so much easier to have those conversations that [TS]

  there are no gods is like just you can watch it happening it's not magic right [TS]

  it's not like okay it's early December as promised before the end of the year [TS]

  we've made this thing open source here is the zip file you know with all the [TS]

  source and there's [TS]

  a patchy or whatever and whenever they're using its got an open source [TS]

  license to have at it and here's where we plan to here's our roadmap for the [TS]

  first with 3.0 and then they go into radio silence and in early June WABC we [TS]

  find out whether that matter not like you said from the point from here to [TS]

  there every single day there are going to be these debate coming to me that I [TS]

  mentioned in the interview that the swift evolution mailing list is [TS]

  remarkable because you really have to look at the email addresses to see who's [TS]

  from Apple and who's not because there's really serious and very thoughtful [TS]

  proposals coming from outside Apple and it's very clear that people inside Apple [TS]

  are giving them their full consideration it is truly collaborative relationship [TS]

  right you know eight days into it [TS]

  yeah definitely I'm doing it will calm down a little bit of InAs been [TS]

  tremendous I had to switch to digest format that it was just telling my email [TS]

  and biting into a folder was just too many mail today so I just tried taking [TS]

  the digest version of the traffic will die down a little bit but I used to the [TS]

  old model with the open source like Darwin was that was the big give you a [TS]

  big dump and then I don't know how many people even contributed or even could [TS]

  contribute and then you wouldn't you wouldn't see anything from them until [TS]

  the next major version like I think just the other day they finally put out the [TS]

  Capitan version of the door and open source stuff and so if they come with us [TS]

  big storms dumped even if they had been accepting like feedback if you didn't [TS]

  see anything from Apple and till WWDC it would just be like like typical right [TS]

  only sort of black hole for information like that have discussions with you [TS]

  could say things but you never knew I was going to do you have to sit around [TS]

  and wait and wait and wait and then doing a bunch of slides and people would [TS]

  applaud your not here and it all happens in real time and money I guess the open [TS]

  question is still how often do the people at Apple pushed it changes back [TS]

  up to the repository how much development that's true of any open [TS]

  source thing you can [TS]

  you can have your hero local clone of repository do a bunch of changes to it [TS]

  and not push them back up to the main repository for a while to some degree [TS]

  there has to be development going on an Apple that doesn't immediately get [TS]

  pushed out to the public I mean I know if there's a vetting process involved in [TS]

  that or just the internal coordination of deciding in their particular what [TS]

  they're going to do versus what the community's doing I'm sure they'll never [TS]

  get it just fine but it is just like any other open source thing if there does [TS]

  come a point where the community wants the post about everything in one [TS]

  direction now belongs to put another you can another 24 crore so far from that [TS]

  now now everyone has come by on everyone's excited to be working on [TS]

  Swift's new Swift is this one thing and apples could be the driver seat having [TS]

  invented in having the platform where it's most useful so I think things will [TS]

  be smooth sailing as soon as they can be an open source for the foreseeable [TS]

  future [TS]

  yeah and I think it must help in a certain degree that just about every [TS]

  programming language I know of and certainly all the ones people are [TS]

  passionate about have somebody who you know was the dictator in charge who [TS]

  invented it [TS]

  and infused it with their personal you know here's what I think this [TS]

  programming language you know all the great programming languages to me i i [TS]

  think thats opinionated or origin and Chris Lattner is obviously that [TS]

  individual swift and I think it's very clear both publicly and from what I've [TS]

  heard privately that it was what has happened was always his intention that [TS]

  it would go open source and that it wouldn't you know and it's not like it [TS]

  took this long because there was a debate internally it really was what [TS]

  what Craig said in the interview which was didn't make sense to go open source [TS]

  right out of the bat we had to make you know it's still too liquid you know wait [TS]

  till it solidifies a little bit and then at that point you know it's not a matter [TS]

  of if but when I think was his exact words and I think it really helps it [TS]

  latter was on board with that from the beginning in terms of wanting to have [TS]

  this sort of [TS]

  it's not like it's not like somebody else at Apple is forcing him and his [TS]

  team to participate as well that's the unspoken part of that is like alright so [TS]

  it didn't make sense to go because I was too knew why would it be bad obviously [TS]

  pre one point I was like you have a secret I'm keeping the secret so I can [TS]

  come to WBC is a revenue permalink free 1.0 pre-announcement you can say that's [TS]

  the reason it was a secret and we don't even know if we could do it and we had [TS]

  to decide internally and so that makes it once everybody knows what does that [TS]

  then why is an open source at that point I was new [TS]

  not ready willing to work out why why do you need to work it out why can't you [TS]

  work it out when it's in the open why does it have to be closed source while [TS]

  you're working these things out and I would say that's right now is still by [TS]

  the standards of most other major foreign language still heavily influx of [TS]

  inferred that they're they're ripping out plus + and minus minus at this point [TS]

  thinking about what they're going to do with like you know people proposing new [TS]

  keywords like this is a clear liquid so why are they closed source between the [TS]

  announcement and now and the answers that are pretty obvious like they don't [TS]

  think they need to say that he's always going to supporting an open source [TS]

  project has overhead like it you can work you can go much faster when you [TS]

  don't worry about other people's input that sounds bad and it's like oh you're [TS]

  being there is a lot of overhead especially for companies like Apple in [TS]

  terms of intellectual property and making sure this time do what they open [TS]

  and what's not [TS]

  it's a lot of work to do all the things that are required to be a good [TS]

  maintainer of an open source project and they just you know it would have made [TS]

  them go slower right so now they're at the point where the tradeoff is worth it [TS]

  so they're they're OK with going a little bit slower now across the input [TS]

  is a little more valuable because in the beginning part so much basic stuff then [TS]

  work and then having a compilation of us like you just you just want to hold [TS]

  together is a species of what all can we ship something can we get it working on [TS]

  exco's like the playground crash all the time that's that's basically I would [TS]

  assume the answer that wasn't given their [TS]

  at the gate and during the entire but they were not going to tell you about [TS]

  the details of the internal debate but you can go much faster when you don't [TS]

  have to worry about the outside world's opinions or input and you don't have to [TS]

  support them and you have to maintain you know source repository with clean [TS]

  source code and mailing list and all the other things that go with that I think [TS]

  it's sort of a like a two-step process first step was with one point out this [TS]

  is good enough to show you guys and let you guys start playing even know let's [TS]

  face it you can start working with it will get it into a shape where it's you [TS]

  know you can start using it and I i've been asking around and I do there are [TS]

  you know it's not just an apple there you know real developers it real you [TS]

  know absolutely no people out there you know top apps to borrow a phrase from [TS]

  raiders of the Lost Ark there are top apps that have new parts of it you know [TS]

  maybe not entirely written so that's probably still very rare but new [TS]

  features are being written swept in relapse you know that you're using today [TS]

  but I think stage two is this is where I think ladder and his team thing we had [TS]

  this vision for where we would start with and we're not there yet and this is [TS]

  the point where there's this the fundamental aspects of the language but [TS]

  we're settled on now and now we're willing to start listening to how we can [TS]

  make it better to suit your needs [TS]

  yeah but I think the language is just so young friend in the grand scheme of [TS]

  things it you know I want you like human analogy I can maybe consider up now [TS]

  like it's not you don't need to be held in one of those big tube things they can [TS]

  sit up case falls over a little bit can set up but this is like the best and the [TS]

  worst part because it's kind of like this so much potential but Craig talked [TS]

  about so 3.0 now they're really working on getting the Abia nale down [TS]

  and everything and that's just got to be terrified because you know the standards [TS]

  of binary compatibility that Apple aspires to like with Objective C I think [TS]

  market has brought this up an appt at times like you could have built and I [TS]

  thought out for the original iPhone and and and theory if you stayed to you know [TS]

  still well supported API's the buyer was still run like they don't Apple is not [TS]

  in the habit of breaking backward compatibility for binary libraries and [TS]

  everything that frequently which is surprising for a company that is so gung [TS]

  ho about moving on from the past and harbor designing software design they [TS]

  really good about that stuff down like that i three point is not that far away [TS]

  and it's like you really get one shot at doing this right because it's not going [TS]

  to be another 64 2 30 32 or 64 bit transition for them to use to paper over [TS]

  like they did with like you know the objective see stuff like well we're [TS]

  gonna 3264 gonna break anyway so now's our chance to do something a little bit [TS]

  differently is not going to be a 64 to 128 transition in the foreseeable future [TS]

  so they really have to get their ABI something that doesn't have some [TS]

  terrible mistake that ties the hands in the future and that is supportable 44 [TS]

  literally decades maybe not it's not a mistake it's like not like missing some [TS]

  sort of thing that everybody thinks it's ok today but five six seven years ago [TS]

  from now everybody thinks oh man that would be so great if we didn't have that [TS]

  we weren't stuck with that decision or they're going to be some language [TS]

  features that is much more difficult to support with the ABI has designed are [TS]

  you know the way quantum computers work and fifty years is different than a but [TS]

  even just like there's a particular language feature that they like we don't [TS]

  have time to become currency is a great example this with 3.00 like what [TS]

  evolution mailing list and and roadmap or whatever they like language Java [TS]

  concurrency would not plant for 31 2010 have time for just two big feature we're [TS]

  gonna say that as those 3.0 but they're gonna have the ABI nail down so I really [TS]

  hope there's nothing about you know language level concurrency Peters [TS]

  that would be easier to do with a different API not preclude them doing [TS]

  this and I'm assuming like based on past experience that they're looking for an [TS]

  ABI that we really really solid but that's far everything until now has been [TS]

  a communication from from Apple that sarcasm we're gonna break your crap all [TS]

  the time we are not maintained source compatibility where we're adding [TS]

  keywords removing things we're we're changing Harper is working and and their [TS]

  solution to this has been like we're going to use Xcode translate your old [TS]

  code you could hear you but we're not going to support your old code like just [TS]

  forget it because there today don't want to be held back by the passes kind of [TS]

  the nightmare of you know come out with language and then let literally [TS]

  thousands of developers start writing real applications with it and shipping [TS]

  them to customers and then be like oh my god we can never change this part of the [TS]

  language because so many people have always come out there like we just need [TS]

  to be set out to loosen the world now we can never take away plus plus a little [TS]

  break everyone's out samples we know we reserve the right to change this [TS]

  how does mine which looks on the page to make your source code that you think is [TS]

  perfectly good syntactically invalid so it won't even compile and they were [TS]

  gonna manage that is by giving you tools to translate your source code that's one [TS]

  of my favorite changes in the I guess it's the it just came out in this with [TS]

  evolution or maybe the new version is with the day released as they open [TS]

  source to where they got rid of these plus + and minus minus operators and [TS]

  again just to take a big step back and I read the interviews that Federici did [TS]

  with like Mashable and other outlets last week I was happy and have worried [TS]

  cuz I was happy because his interviews with like Ars Technica and and Mashable [TS]

  covered the basics like a foundation of what Apple's official stance was towards [TS]

  this open throwing a swift and I thought that means I don't have to waste time [TS]

  talking about those things with them and we can go deeper but then I thought what [TS]

  if that's all he wants to talk about is this he doesn't wanna get nerdy at all [TS]

  and I was like I kinda want some of the stuff to be a little technical but then [TS]

  the way the interview went absolutely no problem getting him to go technical I [TS]

  just worried now that it may be a little bit over [TS]

  over people's heads for everybody listens to the show and so just as one [TS]

  example on over explained that the plus + minus minus operators are one it very [TS]

  easy for even an unprogrammed understand and in every language Jesus I know if [TS]

  since you've been able to take a variable it's a the variables accident X [TS]

  is an integer and it's currently equal to four if you write your source code X [TS]

  plus plus that turns the variable 25 just add one to the to the variable and [TS]

  I never really given a lot of thought to it but I get seems like every language [TS]

  just about every see style syntax language sense has taken out and kept it [TS]

  and swift had it and then we're going I was like we're going to get rid of it [TS]

  and here's why and I thought the explanation for why was terrifically [TS]

  Cochin you know as I get that sort of like unreadable and you can be a lot [TS]

  easier to just you know exit + equals one you know it's 120 there's the the [TS]

  nuances of post post a comment and protect plus plus tax versus X plus [TS]

  costs which means different things in different languages including C Python [TS]

  by the way doesn't have minus minus and this is a great example of a language [TS]

  feature that they're changing based on a proposal for essentially cultural [TS]

  reasons cultural and human factors reasons not not technical not like [TS]

  performance or interoperability with Objective C you're the best but for the [TS]

  ability to do something that you previously couldn't do this is purely [TS]

  its user interface for programming would essentially it does this contract cause [TS]

  more problems than it solves how much longer is plus two equals 1 vs plus + [TS]

  pre and post really get rid of that because that is very confusing but [TS]

  you're like well you know so common as you noted in so many other languages but [TS]

  we keep that just because it's an idiom that people are familiar with and then [TS]

  the debate if you can look through this [TS]

  was like well in what context do you find yourself wanting to do that well [TS]

  when I do a for loop and I say you know I 0 I less than whatever I plus + and [TS]

  then the Swiss dancers we don't want people doing this kind of want to have a [TS]

  way to iterate over collections more naturally so if we say you don't have to [TS]

  do a classic style for loop when do you think you can use the plus + you know [TS]

  and so that's a debate goes and this is the level they're talking about that's [TS]

  why services at all the little baby they can barely sit up at this point because [TS]

  they're still considering fundamental things like anything or should this baby [TS]

  house right and you know it's gonna be a biped should have fuhrman not like [TS]

  that's nothing level they're they're debating this point I think it's [TS]

  wonderful because the worst thing in the world that can happen is the very early [TS]

  decisions made by a very small group of people not exposed to the wider world to [TS]

  become cemented and become unchangeable and to say this is it and we can't [TS]

  change just because it's too late because too many people are programming [TS]

  unless you get everything perfect on your first try but you never ever will [TS]

  all you're doing is like baking in the war you know nice for the language to [TS]

  have time to grow and change and make mistakes and learn from them then become [TS]

  a different language eventually than it was this year last year to take another [TS]

  step back to see glossary as we go for non-programmers the ABI the binary Apple [TS]

  is that what are they behaving stamp application binary right [TS]

  that is effectively so source code is in a text file you write your swift in a [TS]

  text file it goes into the compiler and the compiler turns it into the binary [TS]

  output so the doc appt the the little actual executable inside the data bundle [TS]

  that's the binary or if it's a framework or library it's the compiled code that [TS]

  the machine read natively and what they're promising is that Swift 3.0 [TS]

  which is scheduled for I think they say late 2016 which I sort of interpret I [TS]

  read between the lines Mac OS 10 ten-point 12 probably and I S 10 that [TS]

  it's good you know at that from that point forward that binary interface is [TS]

  going to be compatible with future version 456 going forward and they're [TS]

  like you said that you know high-stakes to commit that yeah and it is most [TS]

  important for someone like Apple makes a bunch of libraries they should put their [TS]

  machines in your binaries know how to call into those libraries how to how to [TS]

  call the function defined functions and how to call them how to present the [TS]

  arguments of those functions expect where they get the return value from all [TS]

  those little details that are right now have been in flux and they have to mail [TS]

  them down so that your ship your binary they'll ship their libraries and then [TS]

  they'll come over the new version of the OS and if you don't revise your [TS]

  application you want to still work you don't have to recompile it every time [TS]

  that you know that's what they changed the FBI would mean that people have to [TS]

  recompile their stuff and historically speaking out on that on iOS and is [TS]

  rarely done and I was 10 and 32 64 bit transitions are great time to require [TS]

  that because you're like well your application will keep working but [TS]

  eventually we're not even going to support you know thirty two-bit max [TS]

  anymore so we're just gonna be 64 bit from now on in your application will [TS]

  stage a digo system if you don't updated if you updated hey guess what you got to [TS]

  recompile anyway no big deal [TS]

  what was the gist of what he was talking about there were some about what why [TS]

  when I was asking where they're using swift internally and one of the things [TS]

  that they were they holding them up and kiddie kampus which the swift [TS]

  is that they need to support 32 bit on Mac OS 10 yeah I couldn't tell whether [TS]

  that was just a sly allusion to the fact that 32 bit support is going away [TS]

  everywhere that it hasn't you know any any remaining holdouts 32 bit support [TS]

  will be disappearing and they've been doing it over the years just going 64 [TS]

  bit everywhere they possibly can adjust when they can stop supporting entirely [TS]

  the other option is to work with a 32 bit things right right now Swift is 64 [TS]

  bit only as far as I know yeah and there's no reason they couldn't make it [TS]

  work with 32 bit like you know where they could but is it worth it so it's [TS]

  just a question of I just shutting that door and when is it safe for them to [TS]

  shut that door [TS]

  you know in terms of backward compatibility when I called you know the [TS]

  iOS devices going 64 bit you can still run 32 bit out there but you don't want [TS]

  to have both 32 bit and 64 bit apps running on your device at the same time [TS]

  he's got a lot two versions all libraries into memory and everything's [TS]

  there are lots of good reasons to just forget about 32 and I guess I just let [TS]

  it age out of the ecosystem that's what I would imagine Apple would do but he's [TS]

  talking about the past in terms of what role as holding people back [TS]

  here's where it would really help if we had a chat room but the question is just [TS]

  popped into my head now and therefore did not do any research before the show [TS]

  is i am guessing this is true I'm getting watch OS is 64 bit only and TV [TS]

  OS almost certainly is 64 bit only there's absolutely no reason why the TV [TS]

  OS would have 32 bit sport since the first device that TV OS runs on is it [TS]

  64 bit device so on TV OS and I'm guessing watch OS it's probably possible [TS]

  to go [TS]

  swift frameworks and libraries in the operating system and even know it was [TS]

  good to have a fair amount even know how to use a a and the first department was [TS]

  a seven [TS]

  yeah I like I said I would imagine the way forward is the problem not to waste [TS]

  his time on 32 bit but who knows like it depends on which road map I can you grab [TS]

  those things out and say when can we finally got dropped 32 bit support both [TS]

  practically speaking in like politically speaking not knowing our partners or [TS]

  whatever you may like 32 games right with someone like rebuilding 464 when [TS]

  can we do that when is it safe and the question is when do we want to really [TS]

  start ramping up the ramp up to 432 because away may be able to put in the [TS]

  work to do 30 bit more but it only seems like the Apple move to just be like so [TS]

  it is going to hasten the demise of anything [TS]

  supporting 64 bit just seems to me that anything new from Mike at least from [TS]

  when they 750 shipped from that point forward it just seems like anything that [TS]

  doesn't have legacy support is 64 bit only so you know from both from new [TS]

  platform perspective like watchin TV too swift itself that you know if it's a new [TS]

  language that came out in 2014 [TS]

  why in the world would it have 32 bit supported you know anchored to the past [TS]

  yeah same thing for new frameworks of their writing new frameworks using so [TS]

  asked with only free markets with native framework so that they're rerunning [TS]

  foundation and swift you know like rubber for new stuff where there is no [TS]

  there is no nonce with version of this library with them they wanted a brand [TS]

  new library maybe it's a big new library that's going to be a tentpole feature of [TS]

  a future wEDC and tell people how to use it [TS]

  if it's with only and so it doesn't 2:30 to 4:30 bit no 32 bit apps can use this [TS]

  thing unless they're gonna bend over backwards to do some crazy way for the [TS]

  you know the libraries to bridge from 32 to 64 bit yes I just think it's all 64 [TS]

  going forward and and what he was giving you a glimpse into things that happened [TS]

  already gone through like why are devising everybody else was really young [TS]

  so it doesn't support 32 bit there are reasons that teens inside Apple may be [TS]

  interested in swift could use it cuz it just wasn't practically doesn't was [TS]

  impractical that point but it becomes more practical everyday I really I [TS]

  thought one of the most astute things he said was my transcript here i mean [TS]

  people here are idealistic [TS]

  really pragmatic and I think you see that as an apple characteristic in many [TS]

  many many elements of what we do and I really do think that I think that that's [TS]

  almost [TS]

  idealistic yet really pragmatic gets to the heart of what I like best about [TS]

  Apple you know in the long run and overall and I feel and I feel like that [TS]

  really exemplifies it in terms of sure we're really excited about swift and be [TS]

  fun to be writing more but we've gotta write an awful lot of new stuff still in [TS]

  Objective C for these very very pragmatic reasons [TS]

  yeah this is the overarching like you may be excited about swift but there's [TS]

  sort of a company cultural imperative to for example not break binary [TS]

  compatibility without a good reason because it's bad for the platform and it [TS]

  is any possible way you can avoid it like it's it's bad for the ecosystem [TS]

  that makes developers angry and just get a certain number of those and you don't [TS]

  want to like it cash I'm just gonna win right so even though people may be very [TS]

  excited about using this new technology if there is an overriding concern you no [TS]

  larger than your little project larger than your little feature your [TS]

  application or whatever it is you're doing inside Apple and the dictators you [TS]

  can't use it because you need is for 32 bit or 32 bit because we're committed to [TS]

  operating biocompatibility until [TS]

  big company-wide decision happens at a level way above your pay grade and only [TS]

  then the idealistic and pragmatic as an organization yes but like within the [TS]

  organization I imagine is distributed where are you go down in the org chart [TS]

  the more people are inclined to be idealistic amounted to something crazy [TS]

  in new and how are you going there are two more people have to be pragmatic and [TS]

  there's a bigger picture here and even though you may be excited to use it on [TS]

  your little project we decided to tap when it's time to do these big moves [TS]

  that are gonna impact again literally thousands of developers and thousands to [TS]

  millions of that money money think about it I don't even know anything about a [TS]

  possible one of the areas I wanted to get in when I found out it was nice one [TS]

  of the things it was nice about this interview was that I knew about it at [TS]

  least a week in advance is actually a little bit more than a week in advance [TS]

  by the time you know we found a date that works for both of us and so I felt [TS]

  like I had plenty of time to prepare which is great and so one of the ways [TS]

  that I prepared I went to people who know a lot about programming than I do [TS]

  and it specifically a lot more about programming for Apple platforms that I [TS]

  do and you know trying to get some questions and one of the things I asked [TS]

  about but you know that and I knew this but I was interesting hearing it from [TS]

  developer friends is this whole angled that Swift is not just Objective C with [TS]

  a modern friendly syntax it is a very different language with very different [TS]

  primary priorities and there are certainly some things it certainly looks [TS]

  better and it certainly is a much more approachable syntax and I feel like at a [TS]

  fundamental level that's basically why there's so much excitement around Swift [TS]

  is there's a lot of people who do just took one look at or take one look at [TS]

  Objective C and they're like I don't get it and then they take a look at swift [TS]

  and are like wow that looks like the language I already know whether it's [TS]

  Javascript or you know C or [TS]

  I don't know even even Java to some degree maybe you know it's a lot more [TS]

  similar to those style languages that is subject to see but there are things [TS]

  about Objective C and the way that the next now cocoa and Cocoa Touch remarks [TS]

  you know all these things that drive from from the next origins the way these [TS]

  frameworks take advantage of the dynamic aspects of objective see that people who [TS]

  are really good at it people who've been writing for these frameworks for a long [TS]

  time love and swift sort of isn't really what they were looking for [TS]

  next-generation language and I thought his answer that surprised me I mean it [TS]

  was it was a message in terms of like dynamic things that people want to do [TS]

  with Objective C will eventually be possible that they're not now and if [TS]

  this is an ongoing thing and they're working on an idea and essentially all [TS]

  the dynamism which is where the light is on the dynamism that that that Apple [TS]

  thinks is important will be available in swift without the downside that he also [TS]

  won over extensive gotta pay for that all the time [TS]

  yeah I thought that was interesting and I thought it was I'm not sure I guess I [TS]

  kind of was worried that he would . question instead it seemed like he drove [TS]

  right into it and it's obvious so obvious from his answer that they have [TS]

  discussed this internally extensively well this is an interesting time for [TS]

  swift because a lot of things that have been said troops with from the beginning [TS]

  are now starting to come become come more into the public consciousness [TS]

  mostly because more people are using it more people are aware that it even [TS]

  exists as excited as we all wear whatever was two years ago to see swift [TS]

  at WWDC it's not really thing for people [TS]

  broadly speaking until you know a certain point like can actually use us [TS]

  tonight I wasn't mad cops ok then it becomes one little thing in the open [TS]

  source is the next level like hey this is maybe a menace to the entire world of [TS]

  programmers right and so now a lot of people are looking at swift and they're [TS]

  going to I think I started realizing things that have been true but from the [TS]

  very beginning you mentioned the syntax thing which is kind of a sideshow [TS]

  because the sin taxes you know even those things people notice when you look [TS]

  at it [TS]

  and there is a certain I don't like a flavor as you can tell I feel like a [TS]

  modern thinkers this year old in the weirdest does it look like you mentioned [TS]

  it doesn't look like JavaScript as a look like whatever language the kids are [TS]

  learning these days right but that is mostly not important [TS]

  some aspect would be hard to keep up with the Joneses and not look like a [TS]

  really old but then the other aspect of it in terms of the language itself is [TS]

  how many things to have to worry about an Objective C asks developers to worry [TS]

  about things used to be for arc ask them to to worry about memory manager what [TS]

  they had to call retaining release and to a modern young programmer that just [TS]

  seems barbaric because I guess it would be coming from you know I guess [TS]

  javaScript is a great example is not a web stuff and jobs jobs everywhere but [TS]

  even things like sharp or a job on the server just as barbaric have to deal [TS]

  with that or to have direct access to memory with pointers and then art made [TS]

  that a little bit better but still like what are all these asterisks all over [TS]

  the place doesn't really make any sense I don't know if you don't know see I [TS]

  think you know a surprising number of developers now find that there you know [TS]

  if you're a GUI application developer the reasons for you to know see to [TS]

  figure out how to make a sheet come up on some pushes the button like there's [TS]

  not a lot of those and it just seems like why don't have to worry about all [TS]

  this crap so from the developer's perspective Swift is exciting because [TS]

  like I wanna make an IRS that because I was absent cool and I like iPhones and [TS]

  other stuff but it's kind of annoying that I gotta worry about all this stuff [TS]

  and services now you not to worry about that stuff anymore and the syntax look [TS]

  nice used to and so that is the the public face of sweatin' excitement over [TS]

  finally a more modern language both in terms of appearance in athletics but [TS]

  also in terms of how many things do I have to be concerned with when writing a [TS]

  program that seem to me to be beneath the concern of me as like a programmer [TS]

  and I think a lot of that is historical in terms of when languages serious [TS]

  primary example so much as as you know if you draw the family tree of [TS]

  programming languages there's an awful lot [TS]

  of languages that derived from sea and in that era [TS]

  you know I guess what late sixties early seventies when she was invented the [TS]

  first edition of Kantar was like 1971 so late sixties early seventies the [TS]

  computers are so incredibly slow I mean just a mind-bogglingly slowed by our [TS]

  standards today you know it you know like the whole entire apollo mission was [TS]

  done with less computing power than Apple watch as I mean that's just [TS]

  ridiculous and so you needed please every single cycle of the CPU that you [TS]

  could and that meant being as a programmer writing that is incredibly [TS]

  low level where you're you know you know managing all the memory by hand because [TS]

  if it works then it's incredibly efficient and then if it doesn't work [TS]

  you just have to fix it fix the boats but like to retain released up is a [TS]

  perfect example of that where it's you know and I know when they first started [TS]

  trying to go away from it and it was funny because it's an interesting [TS]

  example of Apple you know going down an alley and then a deciding against it [TS]

  which was at some point in the last decade they introduced garbage [TS]

  collection to cocoa [TS]

  pretty sure it was like any early years of burt run was definitely after a [TS]

  minute left and I know there is a lot of reluctance from people who got it and [TS]

  people who didn't have at least didn't think they had problems dealing with the [TS]

  manual retain release memory management didn't like garbage collection at all [TS]

  and it turns out [TS]

  Appleton like it either eventually got rid of it you know all the people who [TS]

  thought I was finally this garbage collection like one of the big reasons [TS]

  to even consider garbage collectors just like I said you know i'm Jack Dorsey [TS]

  started to look old and crappy why do I have to worry so much about memory when [TS]

  program for this pipeline make the platform feel feel older and more [TS]

  primitive and less capable I can program for Android or Windows or whatever and I [TS]

  don't have to worry about this and like really I just want to make my appt right [TS]

  I want to decide I want to write the code that's going to make my appt do the [TS]

  things my app doesn't care about memory like can't just take care of that for me [TS]

  and so the only reason they go down the garbage collection by the cycle here is [TS]

  one way we can make people not have to worry about retaining they said it was [TS]

  like well you put in there retains their leases but they won't do anything or [TS]

  whatever and garbage collection for a variety of reasons was difficult to go [TS]

  with objective scenes in particular because it is [TS]

  percent of C and because it's very difficult for garbage collector to know [TS]

  enough information about the CAS parts of your program which may be right in [TS]

  the Objective C or maybe in data that's coming out of C libraries to know enough [TS]

  to do the right thing with that stuff and so it was kind of not technically [TS]

  infeasible but like never completely closed solution we could be like I feel [TS]

  like a hundred percent of the time we will do the right thing here and you [TS]

  know and and eventually they they launched it was out there you could use [TS]

  it they don't put it on some teams that eventually pulled it back right and this [TS]

  was getting up before with like things that have been true but with the [TS]

  beginning there is now going to be coming in [TS]

  to the public eye the other aspects with setting aside the syntax and the [TS]

  modernization in terms of look at this language that does more modern thing [TS]

  that lets the developers not worry about the things I'm not worried about it and [TS]

  express themselves in a more compact elegant form just just solving the [TS]

  problem then when I saw you mentioned look more like pseudocode that's because [TS]

  you're not consider code you're not concerned with the little details like [TS]

  here's the algorithm here's here roughly the steps I don't want to be concerned [TS]

  about the details on it does all that but the other thing that's been about [TS]

  this is an interesting contrast to what you just mentioned about like see being [TS]

  made in the day when computers were slow and it was discussed by Craig as well [TS]

  and talk about the the just-in-time compilers the jet and everything it is [TS]

  essentially a bet against a virtual machines with with garbage recycling [TS]

  garbage collectors right it is a bet against the things that java does and C [TS]

  sharp and you know and drive which is Delta Virtual Machine [TS]

  are all the Java JavaScript engines that run on our web browser's JavaScript is [TS]

  in a tough spot because it's like they're stuck finding a way to make [TS]

  JavaScript fast business everywhere in web browsers and no really controls that [TS]

  platform and so that's why we had to put all his brain parenting JavaScript fast [TS]

  but the garbage collectors was going more in that direction but as you [TS]

  mentioned in the description of sweat the small saucepan from like an [TS]

  operating system up to like a scripting system when you get down to low level [TS]

  you can't have a garbage collector doing things [TS]

  unpredictable things that unpredictable times and even if it's predictable you [TS]

  can have the garbage go to like take these pauses to walk your trees of [TS]

  things to find out what needs to be collected even you know there's a lot of [TS]

  great technology and the job world making garbage collectors don't induce [TS]

  pauses and are are more predictable but nothing is as predictable as something [TS]

  that is entirely deterministic like arc something that is determined at compile [TS]

  time with their put in that potentially putting the returns in releases for you [TS]

  and there's debate as to whether there are you know theoretically can garbage [TS]

  collection approach the reliability and performance characteristics needed for [TS]

  the kernel of an operating system I think Microsoft has had various projects [TS]

  to try to make a sort of memory manage operating system or whatever but Swift [TS]

  is about heavily in the other direction and this bet was made when are came out [TS]

  for Objective C not so much of its west but it [TS]

  doubling down aspect is that to make a language that fulfills the goals set out [TS]

  for swift we have to not have this virtual machine and garbage collection [TS]

  that does all the stuff we have to do we have to basically nail things down more [TS]

  figure things out at compile time make everything about a deterministic only [TS]

  then will it become possible to match both the performance and the start of [TS]

  the predictability of C code so you can write your operating system kernel your [TS]

  audio subsystem or I don't know you real-time operating system for your car [TS]

  we'll see about that but but you can write that type of code without [TS]

  wondering when you know when the garbage collector is going to pause for a second [TS]

  to walk some tree or when something's gonna get collector how much memory is [TS]

  gonna be available at any given time based on the collector and paste code [TS]

  ran before you called into this code or even when you're running on a modern [TS]

  computer that is very fast and maybe that pause isn't even a full second [TS]

  maybe it's just you know two hundred milliseconds but a fraction of a second [TS]

  in certain contexts that that pause is is just kills the user experience i mean [TS]

  and that's not to bad mouth and right but it's why I mean I've heard from a [TS]

  lot of people that dealing with a garbage collected system is one of the [TS]

  reasons why Android spent years trying to get to what I S users thought was a [TS]

  smooth user interface right from the get-go because the garbage collector [TS]

  would run while you're scrolling list or something like that and you get these [TS]

  little starters are pauses and they were fractions of a second hole second long [TS]

  pause but [TS]

  just little fraction of a second and in the real-time situation if it's some [TS]

  kind of camera based thing running on a car or something like that you really [TS]

  don't want to have an unpredictable even fifth of a second pause and I have [TS]

  possibly collectors but the whole point is if you give up pausing essentially [TS]

  what you're doing is having it in the general case having something like [TS]

  reference counting happening in a small case like this generational collectors [TS]

  and long livers are short lived objects like you can you can avoid possible to [TS]

  avoid poisoning you basically built up garbage and it is also mentioned by [TS]

  Craig the idea that they can run like a kind of excuse of how was it around [TS]

  their house devices there they can fit their stack they get their operating [TS]

  system and there are libraries in a smaller memory footprint but they say [TS]

  they probably that you know what [TS]

  reading from the is thinking alike but different area for a footprint than some [TS]

  of our competitors who languages don't have these characteristics like Android [TS]

  devices because they built it too much garbage that's basically a choice you [TS]

  have you there something has to decide which memory is available for use with [TS]

  which memory are we done with and we can use again for something else which [TS]

  memory is still in use and park does that by you know and park which [TS]

  underlies the objective CNC does that by as it runs it says I'm using this now [TS]

  it's available now I'm using this now available now if you like in the code [TS]

  path along with executing code and garbage collection is I just plow [TS]

  bravely poet and something else the garbage collector occasionally figures [TS]

  out what is available for everybody else and what isn't hopefully you can do that [TS]

  without disturbing the other guys planning bravely forward but sometimes [TS]

  you have to stop him from going into a possibly one that doesn't stop the [TS]

  ongoing code to figure out what's available it has to necessarily be you [TS]

  know leave some stuff on the floor and say I'm not sure if this is a news yet I [TS]

  can't find out without stopping that the guy that's running over there so I'm [TS]

  just gonna leave it off the side but what about down to is you never know [TS]

  based on you know you got us two things the collector and the program you never [TS]

  know at any given point when I'm at this point in the code how much memory is [TS]

  gonna be available in in this process the collector on here and then maybe [TS]

  it'll be here but the collectors behind is running on a different course maybe [TS]

  this will be available whenever [TS]

  and you just end up with a little bit of extra garbage and the overhead of the [TS]

  virtual machine south and all that stuff before you get into like executing by [TS]

  code like Java does vs native and all that stuff with and our objective see [TS]

  our bet heavily against the virtual machines like Java Virtual Machine and [TS]

  certainly nothing like the jet craziness that we had to do for JavaScript to make [TS]

  that fast [TS]

  garbage collection the analogy works and so I can see why that stock as the [TS]

  terminology but you know like any any analogy breaks down at a certain level [TS]

  and in the real world the garbage that you keep in philadelphia we've garbage [TS]

  collected once a week [TS]

  the garbage you know the fact that by tuesday we've got six days of garbage in [TS]

  the house isn't a problem because we don't generate that much garbage in the [TS]

  just sits tied up and bags in our garage whereas on a computing device [TS]

  uncollected garbage is taking memory and memory is a precious resource it's [TS]

  almost like you're gonna studio apartment uncollected garbage [TS]

  yeah and i think is a good garbage collectors take advantage of this a try [TS]

  to be smart about the tight loop and inside this loop I do something with [TS]

  some amount of memory from the next iteration totally done with it I don't [TS]

  need a new set of memory I just keep using that same region of memory over [TS]

  and over again this time I don't need to allocate and get rid of it like I just [TS]

  need to know say I'm using it ok now I'm done I'm using it I'm done using it and [TS]

  I'm done rather just creating a new i picking up every time a very naive [TS]

  old-style garbage materially are you making any time you need some memories [TS]

  that I got that member of the divers are you going to make it to the next [TS]

  iteration loop in the garbage but rather run yet it's like oh you're making a new [TS]

  I remember that object and a programmer manually managing member would never [TS]

  like a look at the Maritime got the memory from the old office I'm done with [TS]

  it I'm not using it anymore [TS]

  take this right and so a good programmer might not leave all running the code [TS]

  that was written with this is the problem that they really primitive [TS]

  garbage collectors back in the day in the garden has become smarter and [TS]

  smarter we can divide the world into objects short-lived and objects to hang [TS]

  around for a long time but slightly different pools about these short-lived [TS]

  on fixing the ones that hang around and let's try to you know what you're trying [TS]

  to do is get to the point where if you gave this to you know if you get this to [TS]

  an assembly language programming you should the assembly language they [TS]

  wouldn't look at it and go this is the stupidest code is incredibly wasteful of [TS]

  resources you know you want to look at and go oh oh yeah no that's that's [TS]

  pretty much as efficiently as you could have written it like I'm you're not [TS]

  allocating tons of memory and then leaving it allocated and not reusing it [TS]

  because you don't know that you can look at it and say what I can tell this [TS]

  memory is never access the NYU keeping it around while the garbage that he [TS]

  doesn't know [TS]

  so this is kind of a philosophical debate can garbage collection ever be [TS]

  so this is kind of a philosophical debate can garbage collection ever be [TS]

  efficient and as predictable as manual memory management and arc and what I [TS]

  realized you know swift and Objective C with arc is fair to say we're going to [TS]

  try to automate the part where we say retain this do stuff with it released it [TS]

  retain this new stuff with the release it so the developer is not the right of [TS]

  it so that the compiler right to sue them if you were to look at the assembly [TS]

  code we can see a predictable pattern because there is some overhead doing all [TS]

  those you know a bumping up to retain counts and releasing like that's in your [TS]

  running code the code of the guard childhood doesn't need to do it doesn't [TS]

  need income and retain counsel you may retain counsel can just run because it [TS]

  knows the garbage collectors gonna take care of that and so the bed with arc and [TS]

  swift is it is more efficient and predictable to do that work in line [TS]

  because then we know exactly when that work will be done and we can do we can [TS]

  be smarter about it like we can in the in the binary that we generate look at [TS]

  it and say are we being smart doing stupid here versus it running the [TS]

  garbage collector like well now there's two things in place there's the program [TS]

  and as the garbage collector and the program looks ok in terms of what is [TS]

  doing semantically but how will the garbage collector interact with us how [TS]

  would deal with the memory and Latino went to make it available for reuse or [TS]

  whatever I don't know if I'll be able to find it I did I remember reading on that [TS]

  website cora remember reading on Quora page where somebody asked why do Android [TS]

  devices tend to ship with so much more RAM that iOS devices and like the top [TS]

  voted answer was and who wrote it but it was more lies you know that because [TS]

  Android is garbage collected at effectively job aids its Java running in [TS]

  Google's handmade ripoff of Jabba I'm sure there's no way you can convince [TS]

  everybody this end and I do think there is a factor in this where Apple just [TS]

  wants to use less RAM because it's cheaper and they save money and this is [TS]

  one of the ways that they get to you know 38 39 percent profit margins [TS]

  but there really is a factor there that from an effective standpoint like [TS]

  Android device that ships with three gigs RAM has about as much effective RAM [TS]

  for the use the user using device as an iOS device with 1 gigabyte of RAM and [TS]

  this is like this before you even consider the idea of like bytecode [TS]

  although Apple's going that direction with its bigger thing but not quite but [TS]

  anyway the idea in the Java Virtual Machine or any kind of virtual machine [TS]

  that you but you produced is binary code for the virtual machine and the virtual [TS]

  machine is this hypothetical thing that is not your actual CPU and then the [TS]

  virtual machine itself will will execute that code natively on the CPU like so [TS]

  that the ideal job is like how you can make this one Java bytecode application [TS]

  and send it to an x86 device that a PowerPC devised an output device and [TS]

  this same quarter of binary because it's bytecode will run all of them because [TS]

  they all have Java virtual machines and the job of ultra voter machines like [TS]

  skewed natively on the individual platforms but you just have won by an [TS]

  area that was the write once run anywhere type of thing for [TS]

  I'm not sure the dalvik designers of it I think they have think they might code [TS]

  but either way like the idea of a machine as you have a you don't have a [TS]

  real target architecture you have a virtual machine and that's what your [TS]

  your code to and then you have to eventually get to native code that is [TS]

  just more stuff between you and seeing how this is going to actually execute on [TS]

  your actual hardware and I do think that's a keen observation that the whole [TS]

  segment of the show that that Swift is a bet that there is something better [TS]

  there's a better way to to better way to get all the advantages of those garbage [TS]

  collected virtual machines and avoid all of the overhead and that he met the [TS]

  medicine in the bed like any theoretical computer science debate about is that [TS]

  theoretically possible to have a positive garbage like there are [TS]

  advantages to the garbage but it doesn't have to have that inline code that [TS]

  messes with you know memory management in in the actual execution the program [TS]

  you can just go forward as fast as they can and if the government cut their [TS]

  could do its job and keep up with it in just over there would be great but the [TS]

  other part of this is like the idea [TS]

  that computing power not just like CPU power whatever but if you were to grab [TS]

  anything having to do with computing power in terms of how fast commit to [TS]

  memory how much memory do we have what is the single threaded into your [TS]

  performance chart about it like single threaded insert your performance of [TS]

  Intel CPUs over the past ten years or whatever and the curve is not a hockey [TS]

  stick going up any more like in our youth in the heyday of CPU architectures [TS]

  every year there be new chip in it was like twice as fast and you know you [TS]

  could just magically fast you don't have to recompile you do not use a new [TS]

  technology like that the clock speed would double and the you know the number [TS]

  of execution units would double and just everything was was roses every year I [TS]

  remember in this is this latest the nineties internship Windows software [TS]

  development place and is writing his coat and everybody had a 486 and [TS]

  opinions were just coming out so I don't know what youre this would have been [TS]

  around 95 maybe 94 somewhere around there and the one guy got one first one [TS]

  of the engineers government first and it was so ridiculously faster than [TS]

  everybody else and it gave us good kid i mean you know usually programmers get [TS]

  good good devices because they really you know even if you're like a [TS]

  penny-pinching manager if if it takes a long time for the code is compiled [TS]

  getting your engineers machines are compiled code festers [TS]

  disguise machine was so much faster that we would people would wait until he was [TS]

  like away from his desk and then uses computer to compile stuff because it was [TS]

  took less time than waiting for to compile Iran desk yeah I remember just [TS]

  like seeing doom running around like I do more on the pending before the age of [TS]

  video card this is on the CPU it was just magic how much faster was just the [TS]

  same program like it is the same program just for free everything you did got [TS]

  faster so when we were in that part of the hockey stick graph I saw it looked [TS]

  like it had at that part of the largest occur where it's like going up up up and [TS]

  that's nice level often becomes like a mound you know we're going to the slope [TS]

  is decreasing over time [TS]

  and if we were still on that hockey stick I think it's inevitable GM's in [TS]

  any sort of higher abstraction thing would have won because it's like yeah a [TS]

  little bit slower and you can get behind and we may be using remember they're [TS]

  supposed to but just everything is on the big hockey stick and it doesn't [TS]

  matter your concerns are pointless they'll be dwarfed by by be in [TS]

  excitability of progress and progress has slowed for two reasons one the move [TS]

  to mobile has pushed everybody back down that chart a little bit and they really [TS]

  can't think we're back in the hockey stick like doubling their CPU speed [TS]

  everything but all they did was they just got shut down the hockey stick [TS]

  because these things are a little CPUs with small batteries and their mom [TS]

  globes that don't allow for you no fans or anything like that kind of back in [TS]

  the you know the old days and that means we're also back in performance on the [TS]

  iPhone CPUs they used to be like dishwasher operating distance marcia [TS]

  CPUs like they were terrible and they've been slowly catching up to now with the [TS]

  iPad Pro it's like this is a modern MacBook CPU but not surpassing the [TS]

  desktop no no no they're they're still there we're still everything to slower [TS]

  and that's been a huge advantage for Apple having a native platform like back [TS]

  in the day where everything was Objective C which is the baseline which [TS]

  to be able to get the iPhone one out the door not been working like the [TS]

  BlackBerry people thought it was a fake demo seemed impossible now and then we [TS]

  see things like to watch where we're pushed back to wow this is really slow [TS]

  again [TS]

  yeah and then the other aspect of this is Moore's Law Moore's law can't [TS]

  continue forever the density of transistors on a CPU doubling every 18 [TS]

  months but eventually get down to like quarks and gluons you know having the [TS]

  size of things the mass starts to get really funky really fast and as far as [TS]

  we are aware you can't keep subdividing matter wherever you go down to a [TS]

  fundamental particles and way before you get on the fundamental particles [TS]

  everything becomes screw in terms of the laws of physics and quantum mechanics [TS]

  and its so creepy sizes like we continue to march forward but there is there is [TS]

  an [TS]

  end in sight where you're gonna have to convert the new technology like quantum [TS]

  computing you know it's not as if this day can't go on forever and so the bed [TS]

  with swift is the Arab time they were in now where progress on computing power [TS]

  and performance has 44 both like practical reasons you know in terms of [TS]

  how much harder is it for Intel to make their top in Cbus pastor every year at [TS]

  how long does it take to get to medics process node for making you know feature [TS]

  sizes smaller interviews and because of the move to mobile and wearable and who [TS]

  knows what else that this is a good time to say I don't think the hardware is [TS]

  going to make it so that those virtual machines are better suited to apples and [TS]

  then the solution that represented by swift and arc with Objective C and so [TS]

  let's say you know the language in the next 20 years the next 20 years he's [TS]

  like this is the best technical solution until quantum computers or whatever this [TS]

  is what we're going with and Apple is essentially begging the company on that [TS]

  and it's been a good bet so far because that I think it gives them a huge [TS]

  advantage during the iPhone hair essentially Bais device error where it [TS]

  was very difficult for the competitors to catch up with them until the CPUs did [TS]

  start climbing up that high tech as of now now we can support Java Virtual [TS]

  Machine and have a responsive GUI you know just a little more ramen [TS]

  occurs to me and I might speculate about car but one of the things that makes me [TS]

  laugh about the car idea is that it's like the one team at Apple that's [TS]

  writing software that the computing part of the device [TS]

  doesn't have to really worry about battery life I mean the car itself [TS]

  obviously is going to have to worry about battery life tremendously but the [TS]

  amount of the battery that towards propelling you know multi ton device is [TS]

  you know everything and the little computer that lights up the dashboard [TS]

  and maybe you know whatever else with the sensors and stuff is insignificant [TS]

  but it really the exception to where things are going the watch to me is the [TS]

  better example of where things are going where the computing device is getting [TS]

  smaller and smaller I mean and you know I don't know what the idea would be but [TS]

  surely they gonna be making devices that make the watch look big [TS]

  you know in the years to come and so they're never gonna get out of the need [TS]

  I don't think the foreseeable future [TS]

  22 have really efficient code that runs on what everybody would consider to be a [TS]

  painfully slowed processor because we keep the desire to keep making things [TS]

  smaller and smaller and have little fingernail size things that do clever [TS]

  stuff is inevitable and really had to view it kind of is like epochs in [TS]

  history like there was there is prob going up which was awesome our computers [TS]

  would get faster more powerful just like everything about them would get better [TS]

  just year after year and was amazing right and if you get starry-eyed [TS]

  extrapolate from that used to be liked by the time we're adults computers will [TS]

  be infinitely fast and have more memory use size of a planet but now it works we [TS]

  start reaching the limits of you know so I can wait for lithography and all the [TS]

  other and instruction level parallelism all the other side of very difficult [TS]

  problems that make it harder to make or even just like heat dissipation with the [TS]

  the major its wars like you know what you're using now 34 gaidar CPUs they had [TS]

  34 cigarette CPUs a long time ago to why we're not using 700 like we're going [TS]

  into the limits of the current way we do computation and so we're kind of in a [TS]

  dead period like we're making progress and we're doing interesting things and [TS]

  we're going the other direction saying well when I made a lot of progress on [TS]

  top end but we can shrink these suckers down really small now is not pretty [TS]

  awesome you can have a smart phone or smart watch [TS]

  but there will inevitably come a time when we come out of the slower period [TS]

  and golf into another hockey stick with its quantum computing or whatever [TS]

  weather all dead or not like there will be further progress is not the end of [TS]

  progress but if your Apple and you're trying to figure out how to make the [TS]

  development platform for right now and for the next twenty years you have to [TS]

  sort of bed like what is the best fit for this and it's you know Apple have [TS]

  the benefit of everyone else going first and going with virtual machines [TS]

  wetherbee job rst sharper the common language runtime the Microsoft and [TS]

  seeing how JavaScript worked out in the browser and then essentially said [TS]

  because both mobile and the slowdown in top-end performance increase we believe [TS]

  this is the best bet for the next twenty years or so because they starve Iran [TS]

  else go before them and so that that's where we are with this I don't think you [TS]

  know what does not its offensive language the next hundred years could be [TS]

  but again the beauty of these details not being in swift itself as there's [TS]

  nothing in the language itself to dictate that it couldn't be run on Tower [TS]

  virtual machines that's not the correct solution for Apple right now and that's [TS]

  not all right let me tell you about our next friend of the show and it's a good [TS]

  friend at wealth front [TS]

  show the last few episodes they are here they give you a low-cost automated [TS]

  investment service makes it super-easy to invest your money [TS]

  the right way you just put money into wealth account and then they manage the [TS]

  portfolio you you ask they ask you a couple questions about how risk-averse [TS]

  you are how aggressive you wanna be as you can obviously be investing money in [TS]

  the stock market it could go down it's not you know not a bank account so they [TS]

  ask you a couple questions to see how comfortable you are with risk and then [TS]

  they just take it from there and that's it [TS]

  they literally say whether you're just starting out you can count which is 500 [TS]

  bucks if you wanna put millions of dollars in there you can do it too seems [TS]

  crazy to me but you know really its kels all the way from you know you've been [TS]

  $500 put in the market to millions of dollars you can do it [TS]

  why would you use them instead of a traditional money managers basically [TS]

  what welfare is is an automated service that replaces a human money manager [TS]

  the big reason to do it is that number one they're just putting the index funds [TS]

  anyway which is really a smart long-term strategy if you read anything about the [TS]

  ways that people can actually you know invest for success in long-term putting [TS]

  money in the index funds to go that's pretty much what well front does but [TS]

  they balance between different index fund based on you know monitoring [TS]

  systems all the time monitoring the market all the time and moving money [TS]

  around between different index funds to keep your risk at the right level and [TS]

  the big thing is is that wealth front charges way lower than traditional money [TS]

  managers 1.01% is about the average with some of those some of the money managers [TS]

  out there charged up to 3% and that's what you have under management so if you [TS]

  have you know $10,000 under management they they take a fee of 3% of your money [TS]

  not like your profits but your money [TS]

  well fronts is just 0.25% and they only start charging that above $10,000 so if [TS]

  you only you know once you get $10,000 account that when they start charging [TS]

  their 0.25% and if you use the code I have here for you they actually bumped [TS]

  up to 15,000 and so if you have fifteen thousand and then put one more dollar in [TS]

  there they charged the fee on that one dollar that over 15,000 [TS]

  gone from them go to hear you go to find out more [TS]

  well front dot com slash the talk show and again you can start which is 500 [TS]

  bucks and they even say right here that that's really how most of people who do [TS]

  it put a little money in there see how it works and when you see how it works [TS]

  you like the results that when you put your quote unquote real money and [TS]

  so go to wealth front dot com slash the talk show actually save money because [TS]

  you get that you get bumped up to $15,000 before they even start charging [TS]

  you a nickel to go check them out and here's the part where I have to try to [TS]

  stay out of prison for compliance purposes I have to tell you that well [TS]

  front incorporated is an SEC registered investment advisor brokerage services [TS]

  are offered through well front brokerage corporation member FINRA and SIPC this [TS]

  is not a solicitation to buy or sell securities investing in securities [TS]

  involves risks and there is the possibility of losing money [TS]

  past performance is no guarantee of future results please visit while front [TS]

  I come to read their full disclosure so far so good nobody from the SEC is a [TS]

  matter of time till I find you [TS]

  anything else on swift and and they do more of those things and I think we're [TS]

  working our way down letter I guess we kind of are like schiller [TS]

  talk show and buttery and I care we keep going down like list Chris Lattner is [TS]

  unlike open-source podcast talk about programming languages with nerds but [TS]

  eventually you get like individual developers alike the UIKit team during [TS]

  interviews well maybe they won't go that far but I don't know I like the idea of [TS]

  because you gonna change people you would think would be both in the [TS]

  position and who's the asked about talking about more small technical [TS]

  details they have doled out of the idea was to speak with one voice from the top [TS]

  and it doesn't say too much and now we're now we're kind of moving down the [TS]

  ladder well we speak with multiple voices from the top tiers and so they [TS]

  can talk about a little bit different things like you know phil was not going [TS]

  to talk to you about you know runtime casting things into protocols right but [TS]

  very well as long as you keep going down at the the conversations get [TS]

  more interesting to narrower audiences as opposed to always just being like the [TS]

  big picture what are you doing stuff I enjoyed the thing i've detected when I [TS]

  would define the new Apple the difference in all up on new Apple is [TS]

  that there remain committed to secrecy on future products for the exact same [TS]

  reasons they always have been that they don't want competitors to know from a [TS]

  marketing perspective they feel that being able to avail these things it's a [TS]

  surprise is an advantage and they get some a lot of publicity around their [TS]

  events and announcements that they wouldn't have if they were blabbing [TS]

  about everything in advance and I think also just the good old fashioned under [TS]

  promise over to over deliver that if you keep talking about stuff in the future [TS]

  all the time have negatively some of these things are gonna ship late and [TS]

  then you've disappointed people in terms and you know but for stuff that's [TS]

  already shipped and talking about decisions they've already made and the [TS]

  stuff that out there I think that's where the differences I feel like all [TS]

  doubtful was if we're misunderstood groom I don't we don't care you know you [TS]

  either get it or you don't and if you like new Apple executive level really is [TS]

  its open this is coming from the frustration I think of being [TS]

  misunderstood and feeling like if we could just explain ourselves we'd be [TS]

  less misunderstood and I wish that we could do if only like we all of our [TS]

  commentary on our blogs and podcasts and everything only had a user name but they [TS]

  had no way to contact us like the App Store be frustrating Apple I give people [TS]

  a misunderstanding you but there was just no way you could find who this John [TS]

  guy was about it i mean that's a good contrast terms of the organizations like [TS]

  they'll talk a lot about that road map for swiftness with three engage with the [TS]

  community but we best about this programming language that now is going [TS]

  to be much bigger than Apple itself and as a community project but no more talk [TS]

  to you about the App Store even if you have such as such a contrast in terms of [TS]

  just talk to a person who would be reasonable with me like surely we can [TS]

  work with that you hear all the the crazy stories about like that happens in [TS]

  Review forever or they think you're violating someone's copyright but it's [TS]

  like no you don't [TS]

  the opposite there are violating mine and just things that you feel I can be [TS]

  worked out between two reason people just talk to each other on the phone but [TS]

  nevertheless take months I was there is no I know it was when the apt to quit [TS]

  the App Store which one sketch well know the one that was reasons sketch [TS]

  announced that they were leaving the App Store and again I don't know I don't [TS]

  wanna call it the straw that broke the camel's back I don't know that it's [TS]

  going to mean that anything's gonna happen but to me it was just emblematic [TS]

  of the problems and especially in the Mac App Store because sketch was to my [TS]

  mind the prototypical modern Mac productivity up its beloved it's so [TS]

  popular I mean an apple obviously knows its popular they ship with the watch a [TS]

  West St case they ship Photoshop templates for watch UI design and sketch [TS]

  template for what you are designed so I think those are the only two you know [TS]

  obviously anybody who uses a different graphics program could open up the PSP [TS]

  Zune converter or something like that but the two that Apple ships you know [TS]

  that you can just download from apple.com are for sketch in Photoshop so [TS]

  to put it on the same pedestals Photoshop is you know it's pretty good [TS]

  and they've won Apple Design Awards and they've been heavily promoted in the App [TS]

  Store and for them to leave the App Store to me is just wow if they if [TS]

  they're not happy in the App Store who is this [TS]

  that's when Apple's narrative doesn't fit anymore because if you're an apple [TS]

  and you want to have a narrative to make yourself feel better place to be like [TS]

  well these are just the kind of thing we talked about the complaints about did [TS]

  you know I don't need Aquitaine releases like well these are just the old people [TS]

  like it we love them they're loyal to our platform they've been there a long [TS]

  time your DOB is your Microsoft here whatever but really the future of the [TS]

  platform is about new blood it's about new developers developers we haven't [TS]

  heard of like say someone makes a new grant application that's not Adobe [TS]

  that's from a smaller team that grows up on our platform that we were the first [TS]

  and only platform they targeted that that is native to us you know [TS]

  like that's what I like these this fresh young faces like new talent essentially [TS]

  that means that the future of the plan the future of the platform is not old [TS]

  crusty people who've been shipping on that platform is for thirty years right [TS]

  its new people and so a new company had never heard of comes along and makes us [TS]

  great graphics application that you know taking the world by storm and Apple [TS]

  thing putting up alongside Photoshop invece yeah you know where it became [TS]

  more than you can't just say well really the App Store is great for everybody is [TS]

  just the old crusty people are used to the old ways to break the narrative yeah [TS]

  one of the ways that sketch again is to me a poster child of what Apple wants [TS]

  third party apps to be as I can only and it's not only because they you know it's [TS]

  because they've how does a small team build an app that in some ways can [TS]

  compete toe-to-toe Photoshop it's because they're leveraging all of this [TS]

  great graphics stuff built into Mac OS tend same thing with Pixelmator same [TS]

  thing with acorn from us you know that these apps written these graphics after [TS]

  in a really small teams I mean gus is the only developer it flying me I mean [TS]

  it's a one-person him there he can make an app that credibly stands as a [TS]

  professional image editor because he's leveraging it when you make any sense to [TS]

  go cross platform because it's it's all built on this system stuff and at that [TS]

  without a warrant for multiple reasons one that's why they give you these API's [TS]

  and they are happy to see them used and then they know that when they add new [TS]

  features to the operating system like what's the thing on the new Renault 5 k [TS]

  max where there's more colors on the monitor the DPP 30 damage or whatever [TS]

  it's called right so then these apps I thinks catch one of these apps I know I [TS]

  saw the release notes on the App Store one of them just an update that has [TS]

  support for it already [TS]

  whereas in the old days when you're not to bad mouth Adobe but with the Dobie [TS]

  stuff where their cross platform they couldn't adopt like a new great new Mac [TS]

  technology like this deep color on the five K I'm at because they have this [TS]

  graphics engine [TS]

  that is a level of abstraction and it's based on what's available on Mac and [TS]

  Windows and Windows doesn't have it maybe there's you know it's going to [TS]

  take them longer to be able to adopt it because then you've got these files that [TS]

  have you know deep color that don't show up on Windows or something like that [TS]

  it's just a perfect example of doing it the right way and they're getting out [TS]

  anyway the one thing that stuck out to me on this and you like your example of [TS]

  it if you could just talk to somebody and work this out was in the hubbub over [TS]

  sketch leaving the App Store I was reading Michael side had a great blog [TS]

  post a roundup blog post with like you know 89 10 different reactions from [TS]

  around the web and he just noted at the end of the noted without any further [TS]

  comment that he has an update to america that's been pending it's just a bug fix [TS]

  update to one of his out there was pending review for 59 days is a bug fix [TS]

  from a user's and 59 days later it still waiting to go under review and even that [TS]

  you say is like prioritization or whatever and he might feel bad about it [TS]

  but the ones that just really drive me nuts as we're like it's a [TS]

  misunderstanding like the romantic comedy level misunderstand and it's just [TS]

  like listening to me you're not like it used to be able to get together and [TS]

  explain this one thing like the whole rest of the movie points right and this [TS]

  is like this in the App Store but is known for you to talk to you like you [TS]

  you send your message in a bottle and he wait and you wait and then you wait in [TS]

  this inscrutable reply comes back it's like no you can't understand me hate you [TS]

  you did you even read what I wrote it like it is this an automated system is [TS]

  there a human there talk to somebody somebody who is both empowered and able [TS]

  to understand the language barrier like they don't you know I think the one by [TS]

  copyright was like where some scammers reporting about locations that appeared [TS]

  to come from a different developer and then upload flag the legitimate [TS]

  developer to say they were violating the Copyright Office like whatever something [TS]

  that is very frustrating I can and that is that comes down to it like in a [TS]

  romantic comedy is merely a lack of communication [TS]

  and how can people be doing so well and improving so much and its communication [TS]

  like keeping the advantages like you said of like keeping your products [TS]

  secret and not and not showing everything you even thinking of making [TS]

  these people are disappointed but also being open to feedback and having a [TS]

  community where human beings talk to other human beings in there is going to [TS]

  green doesn't mean people outside a platonic out what to do but just to make [TS]

  sure everyone's on the same page and obviously that much more advantageous [TS]

  for programming language which is less of a competitive advantage for Apple [TS]

  then like individual features whatever the App Store by its just so clearly a [TS]

  different philosophy dictating the public face of that part of the [TS]

  organization than the other and it was all one big place and travel to speak [TS]

  with one voice but I just it's becoming increasingly clear where the lines are [TS]

  in terms of like the new Apple that you were describing and the old apple that's [TS]

  it still inside their house say that is or isn't appropriate for the individual [TS]

  things just difference like what department of my talk to what is the [TS]

  subject of that were that were even talking about and how then does that [TS]

  will talk about it [TS]

  59 days and I guess I could take another break here and enjoying talking about [TS]

  swift against the other one other thing I thought about was swift and no apples [TS]

  they said this for a while but Federici said this in his talking points all week [TS]

  long which is that they really really think that Swift could be like the [TS]

  default go to programming language not just for their platforms in writing apps [TS]

  for their platforms but just like you know high school kids who are learning [TS]

  to program middle school kids are way too high school kids learning to program [TS]

  computer science courses in college you know why not you know the Desi swift as [TS]

  the language they could take that role which to me is I believe it really think [TS]

  that they they they mean it but that's such an incredibly ambitious goal for [TS]

  programming language that sounds more reasonable when you think about well [TS]

  people learning with now because I can tell you see like I think most of the [TS]

  time its job or JavaScript which I guess this javascript probably isn't terrible [TS]

  because it's a pretty simple as you think you think writing a job job job i [TS]

  think is the most common teaching language at this point some schools like [TS]

  you know I think MIT still something with scheme in Lisbon all that business [TS]

  but the days of them teaching see is your first program I would think are [TS]

  long gone and C++ same time like what is a better teacher gets too likely if not [TS]

  swift than one and if job is the answer thanks West has fewer well his [TS]

  difficulty when they say that like so what's with you want the 2010 9:52 on [TS]

  again it's barely setting up at this point so this is obviously a long-term [TS]

  plan but once with settles down being a more modern language it's either going [TS]

  to be swift or something like Python or javascript isn't even higher level [TS]

  language learning languages don't need to care about performances stuff like [TS]

  that so you can get away with [TS]

  using that toy language but a much much higher level language that you just want [TS]

  them to do with the concepts and I think the only thing that holds with back is [TS]

  swift is a complicated language which has a lot of features and a lot of [TS]

  features in swift I think make more sense in the context of understanding [TS]

  simpler language its first list is not a simple there is out there is a lot to it [TS]

  very powerful there's a lot of concepts and things and they're not details they [TS]

  don't care about like memory management probably a little tiny bit of that if [TS]

  you really want to get into it but they have an unsafe point yeah like they've [TS]

  got the go-ahead score yourself abilities in there but that's been doin [TS]

  teach that but even just the concepts of the way it handles you know all the [TS]

  different prototypes in the class extensions and inheritance and window [TS]

  you the classroom when do I use destructing ValueType sources reference [TS]

  types and this there's a lot of things in there that aren't in much simpler [TS]

  languages like back in the old days [TS]

  tickle TCL you know like a logo with a little turtle turtle even something like [TS]

  Python I mean I guess I guess every language has granted corners but Swift [TS]

  is already a pretty full feature languages going to get even hurt with [TS]

  time so that may hold back from me TGIF because in some respects a teaching [TS]

  language you need to be a real language and I guess he needed excuse for your [TS]

  exercises and stuff but you're not teaching them here is the programming [TS]

  language again using you enter the industry like occasional school concept [TS]

  which is why mit can take solace in Scheme and everything and ML or whatever [TS]

  and like I don't care if you can use this we're just trying to keep you [TS]

  conceptually how's work somewhat y Python again in another language many [TS]

  people outside looks like pseudocode especially since no curly braces in the [TS]

  invitation is mandatory single you out rooms booked into the algorithms [TS]

  red-black trees and you're right it a python it looks a lot like it did in [TS]

  your book the dilemma has english words isn't a program book at all [TS]

  so I think the road to Swift being a teaching language may be difficult but [TS]

  if I had to pick the teachers course in Java and settings with would be better [TS]

  if only because Charles get even more weirdness in terms of like primitives [TS]

  versus you know boxing and an object types and all sorts of crap like that so [TS]

  I've never written job so I'm speaking from a position of admitted some level [TS]

  of ignorance but I you know everything I've ever seen of job is just it's so [TS]

  verbose really I find it very off-putting and there's a lot of like [TS]

  bill of weakness in Java that has to do with i think is a funny part of speaking [TS]

  of things that sound where the future funny by Rick Perry's injury when you [TS]

  staying power or service i'd languages like Jabba was not made as a language [TS]

  for set-top boxes right and in fact it would everybody programs on to read and [TS]

  write ups right oh yeah it's that but like its origins were for set-top boxes [TS]

  then eventually its second life was always going to be a plus they're gonna [TS]

  run in your browser like the opposite of Service Code be sent from a server to [TS]

  your client and runs in people's web browser and then it had third life as [TS]

  you know it is going to have this is a member man's language in this area [TS]

  because it's faster than all the scripting languages and it doesn't [TS]

  require manual never imagined like C++ it always struck me and i know that it [TS]

  came from Sun and it was a typical laid-back Valley corporation to talk [TS]

  about Sun in the past tense and it even feels like the past tense you know I [TS]

  know that word started but the syntax of it looked so corporate look like the [TS]

  type of programming language it was written by like IBM programmers who [TS]

  still wore like a certain type of work and and like the paper people who like [TS]

  your email is configured can even change it so that you have like a 12 line legal [TS]

  disclaimer in your signature you know that you know if you've gotten this [TS]

  e-mail by mistake you are legally obligated to delete it and notify us [TS]

  immediately you know it just outside a type of programming which were just to [TS]

  have a simple class you've got like 12 lines of bullshit boilerplate for [TS]

  everything [TS]

  yeah like trying to do hello world and having to make like a class that I mean [TS]

  to it that it is kind of like if you compare it to C++ was trying to make [TS]

  them are rationalized world and it i think as one of the first languages to [TS]

  really break out and be successful in doing that I I definitely feel like it [TS]

  has a respect for it is making a substantial lead over what came before [TS]

  it but I have respect for it but it didn't like I i went to Drexel in the [TS]

  nineties majored in computer science we learned pass Calif at first like the the [TS]

  first year courses repressed cow and people used to complain some people not [TS]

  largely but there were complaints like on the mailing list liked students [TS]

  complained to the faculty that you know why we learn Pascal no dirt no jobs in [TS]

  Pascal everybody wants to programmers and the professors you know if they [TS]

  would respond or I guess it wasn't mailing list it was new to enter the [TS]

  newsgroups we had for that [TS]

  computer science department and they were just really we're not running [TS]

  locations here if you learn how to program you be able to program in any [TS]

  language which is true I mean it's you know it's not like you know you learn [TS]

  how to program in CNN you don't have a program another just have to learn this [TS]

  index like when I took object oriented programming it was C++ object oriented [TS]

  programming sucks I took away from object program in college I was like wow [TS]

  this is this is bullshit yeah I mean it's like that's the thing about [TS]

  teaching languages is you're trying to teach concepts and they may constitute a [TS]

  pretty new but you have to have an embodiment of those concepts teaching [TS]

  busy do want people to write code that executes and every embodiment comes with [TS]

  its own BS like whatever that BS maybe but there may there may be no it started [TS]

  out as a series of macros on top of C and so he's got you know see greatness [TS]

  in there or this language is obsessive performance there's a lot of crap that [TS]

  you don't quite understand that complicates things but it's needed for [TS]

  performance or Java like this is that this was originally made for set-top [TS]

  boxes and later was used in this is my code thing going on and they tried to [TS]

  make a new portable framework that works everywhere so you why the hell this file [TS]

  I look all crazy well it has to work everywhere and can't rely on you know [TS]

  like there's a virtual machine [TS]

  and not using the native libraries in the platform and everything is over both [TS]

  said no and that look that baggage is not part of what they're trying to teach [TS]

  you but you have to end up learning it as part of the course in if things go [TS]

  awry the course can end up being being more about that baggage or get [TS]

  distracted and think that bag just part of the central concept like you said [TS]

  thinking the C++ his job during the program two very separate different [TS]

  things and if that's in his mind to his first object oriented language I learned [TS]

  with C++ it really works your world view and you can't help your teaching that [TS]

  chorus to be influenced by the language of your choosing so I'm glad that people [TS]

  upgraded from C and C++ the job because it was a significant step up in terms of [TS]

  the BS that you have to learn to deal with but Java has its own BS and swift [TS]

  as on ps2 especially now that is changing every year but if you're near [TS]

  previous Simon 20 min compiled by next year maybe it's not time to jump on this [TS]

  bandwagon yet but over time yeah you need to upgrade the language you using [TS]

  to teach and hopefully they get better over time and have less BS I guess I had [TS]

  it in my notes for the interview with Craig victory don't think I got to think [TS]

  it was because it was just seemed like a dead end to try to get it out of him but [TS]

  I don't know how you would have asked but the basic idea being that a lot of [TS]

  times a programming language is it starts to fuel the creator of the [TS]

  languages personal each girl is a perfect example of that say what you [TS]

  want about her mean you you know I know you still rape role as your job rain [TS]

  will do and you know everything I've ever done of any consequence programming [TS]

  lights bro [TS]

  my reference markdown implementation is perot I i wouldn't you know I like it I [TS]

  think for me for me person because I'd most of what I want to do is string [TS]

  manipulation that's why pearl is great and but that the fact that it's a great [TS]

  string manipulation was the fact that Larry wall was wanted to do things like [TS]

  that and if you read back to when he created it was you know he was writing [TS]

  the script for the NSA or something like that it was some kind of government NASA [TS]

  NASA but he was a gift to you know how these automated things that need to run [TS]

  an FTP the results up to a certain server and automating with scripts and [TS]

  territories to be a lot easier if I just made my own little scripting language [TS]

  that made this easier to do from there and all sorts of other languages have [TS]

  origins like that and I just wonder whether is it a problem that Swift is [TS]

  being steered by someone who's systems designer who writes the LOV M&C lang and [TS]

  writes these compilers is it is there a problem having a language written by the [TS]

  compiler guy because you're making things you're trying to make things [TS]

  easier for the compiler and optimize things from the compiler as opposed to [TS]

  making a language that makes it more possible to be expressive as captives [TS]

  designer well that foundational bet on you know are essentially versus a [TS]

  virtual machine is at the core I feel like of the design it's with because [TS]

  it's baked in entirely in that is definitely from a compiler writers [TS]

  perspective in touch on this is well if you are writing compiler dealing with [TS]

  language that makes it so you can't add certain obvious optimizations because [TS]

  according to the semantic the language you can't be sure that this thing you [TS]

  know I can't be sure what is going to call here I'm not I'm not gonna know [TS]

  until runtime compile time I have no idea so the compiler hands tied behind [TS]

  its back both hands sometimes there just like well [TS]

  known I can do about I just gotta put in this code to execute this runtime a look [TS]

  at the method and executed and you can try to do some optimizations and runtime [TS]

  that all your code it turned into call to the C library for Objective C message [TS]

  send me an optimized with assembly code or whatever but the bottom line is we [TS]

  can't we can't know what the hell is going to be like that is that there is [TS]

  dynamism in the language that the compiler can handle likes of your [TS]

  compiler guy like what is really frustrating like I know I can make this [TS]

  go faster I know I can make this paper I know I can make it so I can I can [TS]

  guarantee that this is always going to be nothing a programmer can do to end up [TS]

  with this half initialized object is going to cause a segfault because they [TS]

  didn't realize to the chain of code that they're halfway through the initial as [TS]

  they call a method in tries to read some object attribute that has garbage data [TS]

  in it because I can fix that no language and I can say this language guarantees [TS]

  the by the time this object is constructed all the stuff that's been [TS]

  initialized [TS]

  it guaranteed by the language is guaranteed by the compiler that bug is [TS]

  gone forever decode or calling a method on the thing that doesn't exist that bug [TS]

  is gone for you I can guarantee that right and so it's not just the he's like [TS]

  I just wanna make it good for the compiler [TS]

  compiling I also sees all the places where you know where bugs happened where [TS]

  program down and we can solve that I think are you getting out of life but if [TS]

  you most compilers yeah maybe you're making a language that makes it more [TS]

  difficult to write you like it or a pocket or some like one of these great [TS]

  GUI libraries that helps application developers make the applications they [TS]

  make for the Macan for iOS and I think I mean two things may be giving people the [TS]

  impression one is there is a match between the language in the library in [TS]

  terms of again [TS]

  culturally as well as technically and early in Swiss life one of the main [TS]

  requirements as soon as you have to be able to call into Dr say in all that I [TS]

  do you have to be able to interact yet filled out an application partially [TS]

  impartial objective say it's a non-starter and it can't be it may not [TS]

  be optimal but it can be terrible to drop into an object you know to call [TS]

  into an Objective C library and I Craig said you can't wait around to be like [TS]

  well we got a new language and then a whole new set of libraries in a whole [TS]

  new set like you can't just start from scratch this too much value and [TS]

  investment [TS]

  in one end and all the existing frameworks and libraries and then you'd [TS]

  still be in case we have it to libraries like a whole separate stack perspective [TS]

  you have to do have to have the interaction with it and interaction is [TS]

  going to be a little weird like all the crazy annotations they have an Objective [TS]

  C libraries to get better interfaces with swift and you have to think really [TS]

  hard about like cocoa yeah I mean they eventually settled that right but you [TS]

  know during the transition gotta do what you gotta do in transition I think that [TS]

  transition makes with look bad because if it was a top-to-bottom switch stack [TS]

  it would be clear hey how do I use with to make it go yeah right now it's hey [TS]

  how are you Swift to use Objective C libraries to make ago yeah and there's [TS]

  this drive by people writing code like I just want to be purists with but you [TS]

  can't really be up to this point like they feel like it's a defeat to say well [TS]

  I'm using swift but I'm basing everything on NSObject because I just [TS]

  want those type of semantic like it feels feels dirty doesn't feel period [TS]

  business not gonna be here at the bus stop them on for a long time just [TS]

  because of the reality of the situation they're in and the second thing I think [TS]

  that is hoping that the other thing in mind is that yes we're just a language [TS]

  written by compiling guy that does a lot of things that make it make it easier to [TS]

  read a compiler and then make it easier to make guaranteed to be safe but that [TS]

  guy had two pitches language to an organization filled with people who make [TS]

  applications he had to convince like Ali Ozer that you know this new language [TS]

  they came up with in my basement or whatever I think simply the language of [TS]

  the next 20 years of apple and it's an awesome way to retire and Mac apps he [TS]

  had to make that case is not like he's not the dictator of Apple right he [TS]

  didn't say i cant was swift and we're going to use it and I feel like two [TS]

  people had to make their case to know what the heck they're doing and it had [TS]

  to have been a good case I have no problem standing up for their you know [TS]

  for their own thoughts and he's not the boss so I you know it's it's very [TS]

  uncomfortable in this phase we are now where it's so clear that there are [TS]

  barriers to making this work and swift isn't done yet and all these other [TS]

  things that are true [TS]

  but I'm not really ready to bang the gavel on anything having to do with like [TS]

  well Swift is not as well suited for making go apps Objective C was yeah you [TS]

  could say that the current version is not as well suited as Objective C for [TS]

  using Objective C libraries to write going out but I feel like as the culture [TS]

  and capabilities and actual code as a swift top-to-bottom like so sorry [TS]

  foundation and all the libraries start getting built up I feel like the same [TS]

  teams that made like you know when they made you I get that kind of like [TS]

  repented for the sins of that it did it better [TS]

  there's one more chance to do that right now all those same great minds behind [TS]

  you i kidnap get some of those same lines are going to be the great minds [TS]

  behind this with native applications in the future I think that'll be good thing [TS]

  and I think that having to about being the compiler guy is that a foot ladder [TS]

  and his team in the people who worked with in a position where they're really [TS]

  intimately familiar with the things that cause problems in shipping applications [TS]

  and maybe some of those problems are things that a true expert objectives he [TS]

  would never do and therefore they feel a little frustrated like that that [TS]

  language not that it's being catered to dummies but that by by making certain [TS]

  things that were possible no longer possible to prevent a whole class of [TS]

  possible bugs but at the same time you also prevent certain clever but [TS]

  dangerous techniques that people had taken advantage of [TS]

  significantly and that Apple is making decisions that that tradeoff is worth it [TS]

  because they they're in a position where they literally no from the crash reports [TS]

  and code that actually been shipping that being able to not do this anymore [TS]

  is actually going to cut off you know this sort of problem only be possible [TS]

  anymore [TS]

  making it harder like the idea of a half initialized object like you know making [TS]

  that impossible language you can do that fine the idea of calling a method that [TS]

  doesn't exist on an object like at runtime you thought you had an object of [TS]

  this type of really you cast it to the wrong thing like in swift you can [TS]

  forcibly cast things to the wrong thing and try to send them you know the wrong [TS]

  method called the whole idea of like looking up a class named by a string [TS]

  like all these capabilities this dynamism talk about their adding they're [TS]

  adding it so be possible to do these things but it's not like the right or [TS]

  preferred way to do things and it certainly isn't the defaults and if you [TS]

  do it it's going to stand out in your code busy gonna have to make like the [TS]

  standout inadequacy company reiterated over this heterogeneous collection and [TS]

  just sending every object the message blindly right and if they're nil i cant [TS]

  just be an offer and if they're the wrong class it'll blow up there on time [TS]

  because it'll be like blah doesn't respond to the message blah you find [TS]

  that out at runtime right but if you look at the loop it's like I was just [TS]

  looking over the hands of an NSArray and sending messages every single item looks [TS]

  good to me right if you try to do something that potentially dangerous and [TS]

  swift I think it will look scary I think it would look like I am going to now [TS]

  call a method that the compiler cannot absolutely 100% guarantee is going to [TS]

  work and because I call them because they are more coding looks carrier it is [TS]

  sort of culturally saying that has swept world we don't do not do stuff like that [TS]

  we won't be like the program will take care of it I'm sure every object in this [TS]

  collection respond to the message I'm sure will be fined or they just do [TS]

  responses like her and then they'll call it or whatever [TS]

  in swift the default wants to be if you just see straightforward swift code it's [TS]

  gonna work in fall victim to this whole whole classes of errors that could [TS]

  potentially happen in [TS]

  in Objective C because too much was determined at runtime me take a moment [TS]

  here thank our next sponsors are good friends longtime friends the show's [TS]

  Squarespace [TS]

  space it's a bill that your all-in-one build your own web site what type of [TS]

  website can you make with their question we were tapes can you you just go there [TS]

  you go there and sign up and immediately you can just get right started into what [TS]

  it what they'll say what are you trying to trying to build a store and you go to [TS]

  store and then show you a bunch of templates for example stores that you [TS]

  start with in and you say exactly the sort of Temple this this is what the [TS]

  story then you open that up and you just start editing what you see there replace [TS]

  the images with your image replace the text with your text you want to go to [TS]

  blog though if that's what you're looking to build or host a podcast you [TS]

  just write down when you sign up you create a blog and podcast here some [TS]

  templates I like this template using this one but I want to change this this [TS]

  and this position you start changing things right there in the browser called [TS]

  a WYSIWYG really could not be more obvious it's so visual they have all [TS]

  sorts of hooks there if you want to insert your own code you want to get in [TS]

  there to code level and change it a little you can do that too but [TS]

  fundamentally it is it a GUI graphical user interface way to design websites [TS]

  and they have template for so many different types of sites it's it's [TS]

  ridiculous [TS]

  it doesn't just bit the end it doesn't just spit out a bunch of HTML files that [TS]

  you then put the folder and upload to web server hosting platform to its [TS]

  all-in-one you build it you make it you can even get your own domain name on it [TS]

  and you can get the new meaning for free pay per year in advance just could not [TS]

  be easier online commerce the sale stuff they handle the tricky stuff all the [TS]

  encryption and their credit cards and stuff like that really really impressive [TS]

  plans start at a ridiculous eight bucks a month and I said you get a FREE domain [TS]

  name registration for your state if you sign up for a year in advance and the [TS]

  demo is no credit card required you just go there and and just start typing in [TS]

  playing just go to score space.com and just start and you know they're making [TS]

  website could not be easier use the offer code grouper my last name Jerry BR [TS]

  and you'll get 10% off your first purchase with Squarespace if you're [TS]

  listening to the show cause john is on it you can use their code to TTP you get [TS]

  the same time percent off so Squarespace build a beautiful you need to build a [TS]

  website just go check out Squarespace been an hour there will probably end up [TS]

  saving yourself it's all in it together so short I hope it's all right now I [TS]

  know it is I was listening to your show today and I took note of it they doing [TS]

  homework I wanted to see what you guys said about the smart battery I feel like [TS]

  my last couple of shows like I Ted joanne is turned on [TS]

  last week and we've just been like a couple of days away like we could have a [TS]

  couple of days later and we could have Joanna could have gone wrong on the [TS]

  battery case I kinda had a feeling that they were gonna make cuz i didnt know I [TS]

  did they didn't tell me but after the show which store near Joanna said he'd [TS]

  been in touch with you about it was a known as they are with me and all they [TS]

  wanted to know was what color iPhone gonna send me something to review at the [TS]

  end of the week and I remember that somebody Apple when I went and got my [TS]

  iPad pro review unit in a briefing in New York and I was asked which size [TS]

  iPhone do I use success success + and I said success and they were good we might [TS]

  have some for you later you know couple weeks and I filed it away at that point [TS]

  of what the world would they make that would apply to the success and not apply [TS]

  to the success + and the only thing I can think of is a battery pack that's [TS]

  the only other battery pack or or I guess it would have to be a case of the [TS]

  battery pack it would play anything so I figured out how to be about it could [TS]

  have been any kind of case but I suppose you know yeah but why would they make it [TS]

  to me a battery case was specifically this sort of thing that they would make [TS]

  only for the success and not the success of the plus for the obvious reason that [TS]

  the place already get they need to make a case for the plus just just huge lump [TS]

  on the back of the last two days they would be the you can actually do like [TS]

  arm curls with it I think it was actually build your biceps so how was [TS]

  your friend cable tester his case was like cracking along the top of maybe [TS]

  just got the defective 1 I'm assuming yours is fine what color t he got the [TS]

  black one of the charcoal so they sent me the white one and that's only when I [TS]

  have experience with so mine didn't crack and what I did [TS]

  is I got I got mine Tuesday morning so as the day it today announced that they [TS]

  had already sent one to me by FedEx it was like I should have had it and I'm [TS]

  pretty much left it on my phone until I got my review out with a couple of days [TS]

  later I let you read it before you guys did a TV show is truly the Douglas Adams [TS]

  Douglas Adams Tech running 10 for Mac roller Mac user to ya deadlines are [TS]

  great as they watched best your own self-imposed self-declared deadline that [TS]

  was pressuring you to say that you're like no problem I had a Wednesday night [TS]

  school thing it was some kind of showing some kind of projects that kids made at [TS]

  5:38 join us at school and other great I'll just make sure I'm finished by then [TS]

  and I have a little self-imposed deadline and I didn't get up till Friday [TS]

  the idea was that the deadline but you're sure you're gonna make it because [TS]

  you had to because you had a school right turns out when you're [TS]

  self-employed you don't have to do anything you know what it was the more I [TS]

  thought about it you know as often happens that writing to me writing is [TS]

  thinking and the more I wrote about it the more I realize that it was [TS]

  interesting things to pursue and think about and talk about it you know [TS]

  sometimes you start right I didn't think it was gonna be nearly as long as it was [TS]

  like the longest thing here in a long time there's been a battery well I hope [TS]

  but to me it does so many little interesting things about it but one of [TS]

  the things I did to motivate myself to finish I didn't really like having it on [TS]

  my iPhone but kept it on my iPhone until I got the review [TS]

  so I actually did use it non-stop pretty much other than like to play with you [TS]

  know the insertion and removal and and certain things you want to do testing it [TS]

  I would but for the most part I had my phone in it from Tuesday to Friday so I [TS]

  didn't see any kind of cracking or anything maybe taking it and how caused [TS]

  the crash could have been you would think it was some sort of widespread [TS]

  defect would have heard about it by now but what happens if the first ones of [TS]

  anything like who knows [TS]

  yeah i think i think is I think the first ones of anything it's it's likely [TS]

  that it was probably too so maybe some kinda maybe there is a bad bad whatever [TS]

  the substance silicon what they call it whatever the substances or maybe there [TS]

  was a coating that was put on that wasn't put on right now anyway I [TS]

  wouldn't I wouldn't if you're thinking of getting one I would let that stop you [TS]

  because something like that happens it is bringing back down I will say this I [TS]

  from ATP you guys were saying and i know somebody else is Joanna hashing review [TS]

  sheet I think she got away with it said don't buy the white one because it's [TS]

  already stained and you guys said oh by the way I have the white one and I used [TS]

  it non-stop for four days and it still looks mint condition didn't pick up pick [TS]

  up any stains so I don't very very clean tissue boxes on your feet in the air [TS]

  like a cat and so there's no president what I heard actually after the show is [TS]

  the opposite of people who got the the black one and said it picks up [TS]

  pocket-lint like if you have linton stuff in your pocket you put the thing [TS]

  in you take it out to cover the white stuff so it's like white and black cars [TS]

  like choose your poison customer can have something in the environment [TS]

  gonna stand out more on them I couldn't tell it is obviously very very similar [TS]

  to their non battery silicone cases in terms of the substance that it's made [TS]

  out of but it maybe not quite the same it actually felt a little grip here to [TS]

  me the battery case to me felt creepier than the non battery case [TS]

  but on the other hand the one that I had handy which was one that Apple gave me [TS]

  with my review unit couple months ago for the iPhone success was blue and this [TS]

  was only white and black and maybe there's some I know if the watch straps [TS]

  there's definitely a little difference in how they feel you know the sport fans [TS]

  there's the different colors have different levels of flexibility [TS]

  different weights yet different weights even and I made that might therefore be [TS]

  true with these two maybe the White is somehow maybe the white non battery [TS]

  cases group here too I thought it was a little too little too creepy I thought [TS]

  you know in terms of it actually being thicker therefore it was a little harder [TS]

  to get in the jean pockets sickness aside that the grittiness made a little [TS]

  you know little bit too much friction and my yea though is that the balance [TS]

  for that one of the complaints about other third-party battery cases they [TS]

  make it slip rear because a lot of them are hard plastic hard shiny plastic and [TS]

  so you end up dropping it also because it's a bigger more awkward shape [TS]

  sometimes but if you make it to grab it hard to slide in out of a pants pocket [TS]

  so you just fine and medium and yeah I totally believe that the black ones [TS]

  could feel different and they look at the pictures I've never touched many [TS]

  things but they look at the pictures like it could also be potentially did [TS]

  whatever material they're making an out of its thicker in the parts that don't [TS]

  have battery in them just take her so could be squishy year it is now it's [TS]

  definitely get so if you stack it side by side with you know it's resting on [TS]

  like the volume buttons or the power on off switch stack it on the side compared [TS]

  side-by-side with the silicon case it's definitely a little thicker it stands up [TS]

  a little bit more the sides are thicker on this then on the silicon case and if [TS]

  you think about it makes sense because it's actually a lot more rigid it's you [TS]

  know you can kind of put the phone I think there's a recommended weight like [TS]

  that with the silicone cases they recommended put it in like certain angle [TS]

  first but it doesn't really matter just put any side in first [TS]

  and just sort of squished that the other side over the edge of the iPhone with [TS]

  this you have to slide it in like it in between the two sides is like a rail it [TS]

  slides in like that and the sides are definitely thicker I don't know what I [TS]

  think it's because it meant to be more rugged I think it is sort of a you know [TS]

  they're only advertising it as a battery case but I think it's also apples answer [TS]

  to what if you want a more protective case for drops and stuff like that [TS]

  gonna have that giant thing on there anyway there's no sense trying to skip [TS]

  around the edges to try to make it look svelte cuz not gonna lie I thought on [TS]

  the ATP I thought you were the only one who's really reasonable Marco and Casey [TS]

  made me a little angry but there goes way too dismissive about it is what it [TS]

  looks like an engineering prototype yeah like I do and this is going to get me is [TS]

  I thought I did a pretty good job my article and then on Twitter you know [TS]

  there's a handful of people of course younger relate says it wasn't overly [TS]

  positive review and i ended it was saying that I don't want to use it and I [TS]

  called it weird and funny looking and ungainly its if it wasn't like I was [TS]

  entirely complimentary was like I just want to understand why they made yea or [TS]

  just like especially in things like this where it's like a visceral reaction [TS]

  based on appearances there is usually a car analogy is an ATP [TS]

  in the car rolled like stuff like that can be polarizing like the physical [TS]

  shape of an object to his purposes [TS]

  mostly not dictated by its shape people have strong opinions about you know [TS]

  Porsche 911 vs Corvette vs Mustang like a very different looking things and in [TS]

  the grand scheme of things their engines and wheels and aerodynamics aside there [TS]

  lots of pictures of cars that look the way you look for for just athletic [TS]

  designer is in so I like that where you look at a picture of something so many [TS]

  people did on the internet looking a picture of this thing and had just had [TS]

  this negative gut reaction to it and these articles come flying like what's [TS]

  happening to Apple design or whatever [TS]

  you really want to understand like what what is a reasonable rationale for you [TS]

  could come to a conclusion that there is no rationale that this is just like the [TS]

  simplest thing that could possibly do and you know they were just lazy or [TS]

  didn't have time or whatever but with Apple knowing everything we know about [TS]

  Apple like that just doesn't seem plausible demanding that they really sit [TS]

  back and it's like and who really cares in the grand scheme of things right but [TS]

  this is what they came out to see you want to think about it like and that's [TS]

  what's going into the philosophy is there an explanation an area where Apple [TS]

  will talk to the press for the most part let's have someone from Apple's design [TS]

  studio not johnnie I because he's busy but someone lower-level make the rounds [TS]

  the tech press no not really [TS]

  that's not going to happen nor should they dislike look this is the product we [TS]

  have and we'll see what the reaction to it is but we think it's it makes sense [TS]

  in some way how could they think it makes sense that I was going back [TS]

  through what have they said in the past publicly about past designs they could [TS]

  conceivably apply to decide whether or not who knows we're just speculating but [TS]

  the bottom line is if you think it's ugly you think it's ugly don't buy it [TS]

  buy one that you think is not ugly right item and any other things I feel like [TS]

  maybe in my cover this enough afterwards if you're wondering why it doesn't look [TS]

  just like a mophie juice pack air whatever their than this one is which is [TS]

  of course the one that Apple if Apple is gonna go that direction they make the [TS]

  tenets they're not going to make one of these cases that have 3000 but what's [TS]

  the unit our civilian powers it's almost easier to write a mean age why doesn't [TS]

  look like those which is really like sort of the standard question I can make [TS]

  one like that because if they thought that was the right way to do it then I [TS]

  have to do anything they're already there there's Apple Store you know are [TS]

  filled with these battery cases that the only reason for them to make one is do [TS]

  is if they had no idea that was different [TS]

  well and also like I think this is a factor like they know a lot of people by [TS]

  battery cases why why shouldn't they [TS]

  and not because like they just they need to get that money or whatever but it's [TS]

  it's like as a it's diversifying with online why don't they make a big part of [TS]

  why shouldn't they make a smaller home why don't they make something and colors [TS]

  is like if it's something that people want and they're buying it anyway why [TS]

  shouldn't Apple make a really good one third parties to fill that role as a [TS]

  battery cases only past into the realm of things that are important enough and [TS]

  that is why they purchase enough that I feel like it should have a party [TS]

  solution and so they do like I'm asked questions about the case in terms of how [TS]

  they came up with this compromise because like going to be this bulky like [TS]

  you said the same thing like why not extend the battery out the top and [TS]

  bottom line I go edge to edge with it like white why not match the capacity of [TS]

  similar thickness battery cases has his explanations which may or may not be [TS]

  rationalizations but in the end of a lot of really does come down to design [TS]

  because you have to pick a size and shape and that dictates how much battery [TS]

  life you have and let's say someone who's really wedded to design a thought [TS]

  it was beautiful and perfect impure and what they wanted then the ethnic design [TS]

  could dictate the size of the battery as opposed to around it it's hard to know [TS]

  that actually talking to the people behind the design all we can do out here [TS]

  speculate and really on ADP I was thinking to dismiss anyone else's [TS]

  theories about bike that there was time crunch or that you know they didn't put [TS]

  in the effort the Netherlands roanoke maybe this was a Russian I don't know [TS]

  what's going on inside out right but is there a plausible explanation that that [TS]

  they say this was actually designed with the same care as every other Apple thing [TS]

  is designed with there were led to believe every other things I'm with is [TS]

  that even possible and I can come up with was so in the absence of any other [TS]

  information you just have the kind of like say which one of those do you think [TS]

  is more likely I think it's so it's so striking that I think it it really had [TS]

  to be the result I think it would be so I think I really doubt that it was the [TS]

  first idea that came up with it so unusual and it is at first glance I [TS]

  think almost it's almost impossible to say that it's not [TS]

  little repulsive at first it just looks swollen in a way you know like you know [TS]

  like when you get stung by a bee and like your thumb swelled up to the debate [TS]

  here thumbs up to the size of a golf ball again looks painful when you see [TS]

  somebody with an injury that swollen you feel it that's what it looks it looks [TS]

  swollen which is not a good look at least at first but I found myself after [TS]

  a few days to get used to it it's just I stopped thinking of a disposing has been [TS]

  supposed to look like a regular case and battery on the back and like I was [TS]

  another possibility again having not actually ever touch me as I can't say [TS]

  you can tell me what you think about this like a lot of Good Grips like [TS]

  kitchen things look kinda weird looking another week to but they're going to [TS]

  hold and ya know if you prioritize how good is this thing called not saying [TS]

  this is what they did because I think the back of it is not shaped like any [TS]

  part of the human hand he doesn't have like rounded rectangle dividend but [TS]

  maybe some ass like you said holding your pinky under the lump instead of [TS]

  under the bottom of the things like that could be a factor in it like it doesn't [TS]

  mean that they're right on so you just trying to delve like what motivated this [TS]

  why because as you said it so it so striking that it it seems clear that [TS]

  this was an intentional thing you don't accidentally make this battery case you [TS]

  want to do something lazy just look like every other battery case and I think [TS]

  Apple would make something look more like they make silicone cases look [TS]

  pretty much like every other silicon case just why does that by one cuz they [TS]

  want to make a nice one and why should the Apple one if you're in the Apple [TS]

  Store like it makes perfect sense it in addition to putting your pinky [TS]

  underneath the putting your index finger on top of it is pretty good too and it [TS]

  does sort of in a weird way it makes it feel as though you're holding a smaller [TS]

  device again you know that it's thicker but it's like you have these like from [TS]

  going back to like the old iPhone days with the first three generations when [TS]

  they were physically smaller and it was a lot easier to kinda get your index [TS]

  fingers on top while you still had some kind of reasonable [TS]

  felt like you could hold it more securely cuz your fingers wrapped around [TS]

  your fingers can wrap around the way it gives you a secure hold if I were going [TS]

  to and I knew in advance that I could package if I knew that I we're going to [TS]

  be using my iPhone camera to record I don't like while I'm writing on a roller [TS]

  coaster or something like that I would put it in this case like battery died [TS]

  even if the battery was completely depleted I wasn't gonna get one percent [TS]

  of charge from it I would put my iPhone in that case to hold it while going down [TS]

  a roller coaster because I feel like I can get like a way more secure grip on [TS]

  that material is made of and because of the hump hump actually gives you like [TS]

  good place to put fingers how many trips to do you have to take before you [TS]

  realize is incredibly dangerous to take movies like to not allow I wouldn't I [TS]

  wouldn't do it and not even because I wouldn't do it just because I would just [TS]

  ruin it was imagining me route dropping live orchestra would just the thought of [TS]

  it puts between such as that is getting hit in the face of ninety miles an hour [TS]

  else's phone like it you do it at the top of the loop or whatever it is they [TS]

  get six flags there so they don't know how they managed just me but it looks [TS]

  like they had you going to like metal detectors like nothing in your pockets [TS]

  like a literally like it was like going through the day [TS]

  no no no no car keys no phones of any time just like it nothing because of Six [TS]

  Flags the roller coasters go away faster to get it all costs goings 60 70 80 [TS]

  miles an hour on your phone is essentially stationary like falling from [TS]

  above and your face me that essentially stationary phone that's not a good [TS]

  experience for anybody think so [TS]

  kids no no I'm not saying is though I would do I'm just saying that if I [TS]

  precarious situation and needed to have a grip on my phone that something else [TS]

  the people I'm going yachting if you're doing Duran Duran in the video for Rio [TS]

  and you're on the front of the yacht you want to pick a movie is really cool [TS]

  again bring him I thought you had a good point on the ATP about it looking like a [TS]

  sci-fi like if you just paved the hallway with like using his the tiles [TS]

  like the subway in like the way the subway hallway in the subway station is [TS]

  tiles pilot with these it would look like a great you know like a year in a [TS]

  set of I guess when I read these cards you know classic sci-fi 6075 files do [TS]

  like you know i mean even 2001 era but it or just you know anything like buck [TS]

  rogers like the way you know the future was gonna be like white and clean and [TS]

  smooth shapes everywhere but like you know some kind of inexplicable bridges [TS]

  and textures though you know yeah by stormtrooper like this time on his back [TS]

  and I'm sure someone with a text book notes but like that you just it was [TS]

  always smooth but there was these lumps and they seem purposeful and I look like [TS]

  a tree I actually it might just be because I've got star wars on on the [TS]

  mind this week but I actually thought this is a real storm trooper II looking [TS]

  thing it even has a little bit of black around the cut-out for the camera in a [TS]

  way that it's not white but sort of like an off-white and yet the ridges the [TS]

  extra ridge's some of them seem which see maybe a little inexplicable there's [TS]

  a certain stormtrooper enos to it was made for the the next version to look [TS]

  like the surface of the Star Destroyer with little green laser ever they are [TS]

  all over the pipes and everything [TS]

  thinking about other ways this case could have existed like the back of a [TS]

  nexus 7 like the old Nexus 7 I don't think so [TS]

  like rubber and had like cross hatching [TS]

  this could have like a little while ago golf ball what has you know concave [TS]

  things or could be the opposite of convex things like a bunch of like bumps [TS]

  on that I mean they could have been textured in so many different ways they [TS]

  get into just completely athletically speaking because it's not our maybe [TS]

  there'll be some functional group there but this one is there's one month but [TS]

  the surface treatment is actually smoothies all seem like intentional [TS]

  athletic choices that weren't necessarily foregone conclusion that [TS]

  there is some kind of philosophy behind this design textures gonna come back at [TS]

  some point that I feel like we're in Europe when texture is sort of fallen [TS]

  out of favour perhaps largely driven by Apple but it'll it'll come back [TS]

  eventually remember the hoes at the fair which case it was the ones with holes [TS]

  cut out on it the colored ones with holes cut out from Apple colored what [TS]

  cases oh yeah the ones for the five-seat bread and yes they would show the words [TS]

  through and/or complaining about how didn't like center on the word correctly [TS]

  but that was essentially textured because you have these holes in the case [TS]

  that would feel like you feel ya [TS]

  was gonna be good for the show I was gonna say cuz you know everything they [TS]

  make them is made out of this I don't even know if they called be blasted [TS]

  anymore but it's this aluminum that has the same deal don't have this aluminum [TS]

  MacBooks have this feel even my iMac has the same is made of the same stuff [TS]

  eventually they're going to switch to a new material from aluminum yeah we're [TS]

  talking about an ATP few times especially with respect and honesty [TS]

  aluminum and glass thing is going to seem as barbaric a CRT video displays do [TS]

  to us now like you mean it was this big heavy glass thing with like a land on an [TS]

  electron gun like how was the class in like that just seems barbaric aluminum [TS]

  glass bones like the idea that you know for our grandkids the idea that if you [TS]

  dropped your phone break like you like we were using the glass shampoo bottles [TS]

  on the prowl again like why would you bring glass the showers the stupid one [TS]

  to use plastic but right now my glasses were made out of glass shattering just [TS]

  going to your eyeball it is likely that you do you have class like it took them [TS]

  awhile to get to that and you know that lots of plastic and plastic is pretty [TS]

  good material to especially for radio reception and titanium but like they [TS]

  want people in my class because I feel like it's just a higher quality [TS]

  experience like it feels nicer and more expensive glass obviously the screen is [TS]

  better than plastic as we learn from the iPod Nano like the plastic scratch that [TS]

  you want something is scratch-resistant for the screen and then although member [TS]

  the back has 23 GS's plastic but the you know and they use glass for the forum [TS]

  for us [TS]

  Mike aluminum glass is a pretty solid combo right now and to get better than [TS]

  it you basically need something that's not going to shatter the display and for [TS]

  the back part I guess you probably have to go with something that's equal [TS]

  strength but lighter so like graphite composite + really hard flexible screens [TS]

  you know or as I've always get the thing down to the size and weight of a credit [TS]

  card it really doesn't much matter what material you make it out of because he [TS]

  drop your credit card on the pavement just like it's not nothing's gonna [TS]

  happen [TS]

  ways to handle that air resistance becomes a factor that doesn't even fall [TS]

  that fast and if it does it's flexible enough that it's not going to shatter a [TS]

  break I thought of an idea is thinking about drops it was watching Jonas play [TS]

  destiny and he jumped off a giant cliff and it seemed like he should have taken [TS]

  damaging didn't say how come you don't take damaging as I you just get on your [TS]

  feet or something you like a jet you play the game so you don't need to give [TS]

  me his psn name that's clever and I watched so it's more like your boba Fett [TS]

  you jump off a thing and at the very end you just get back a little bit to slow [TS]

  down I thought you know that would be a clever thing for iPhone dropped a little [TS]

  bit as the jetsons solution to this problem [TS]

  jets just enough at the last moment to gently land but you're right you know [TS]

  something that happened something I think everything is going to seem [TS]

  barbaric is the way that with everything made out of aluminum that they're like [TS]

  you can imagine how much broader Apple is sending to China every single day [TS]

  that's just being cut into these shapes by the CNC machined [TS]

  the great thing about them is all the shavings in scraps and crafts they come [TS]

  off the machine like all the material that is removed I can just go back into [TS]

  the whole recycling thing is that you know it's not it's not waste in the [TS]

  sense that you can use recycled melted back down and another angle and comes [TS]

  back to you but it's a tremendous amount of stuff cutting which is incredibly [TS]

  difficult process [TS]

  yeah I might like but it's it's what they settled on every summer we all we [TS]

  all saw the development of like how can you make a story laptop that's also been [TS]

  with two dozen creek or cracker breaker feel cheap and they tried lots and lots [TS]

  of different things and boy this one with the original MacBook Air that the [TS]

  machine doubt he's aluminum just seems great I mean eventually I get to the [TS]

  point where they're kinda get into the now the MacBook 1 North like strength of [TS]

  materials and this thickness to me feel like I can take this MacBook MacBook on [TS]

  as a TV parlance for the MacBook little as one part of the side of it just it's [TS]

  just called the MacBook anyway [TS]

  been this over my needs it looks like I might be able to just not a comfortable [TS]

  feeling like eventually aluminum becomes no good because at certain things you [TS]

  know thickness of a very thin you can bend it and it stays bent and that's not [TS]

  really a good thing that's why you think that things like carbon fiber where they [TS]

  bend but spring back and they're also very light very strong so well they [TS]

  switched to this year to a new aluminum for the phones so they look the same the [TS]

  success in success + are made from this new 7000 series whatever they want to [TS]

  call it but it's Apple's new fancy pants version of aluminum and who knows maybe [TS]

  there have you know maybe maybe this will be a take a lot longer than I think [TS]

  maybe a couple years from now they're gonna have 8000 series aluminum I don't [TS]

  know but I kind of feel like by upgrading the aluminum the views that [TS]

  they're sort of approaching this is as good as it's going to get there because [TS]

  it's kinda like samurai swords where you can pick like flexibility or hardness [TS]

  and you want to know [TS]

  hardness on the on the edge the sharp edge because you want to be sharp and be [TS]

  able to cut through things but that harness to the whole blade to blade will [TS]

  shatter when you have something for you to court that's flexible right so going [TS]

  with it with aluminum like that they're making up these things that you can make [TS]

  a luminol you can decide to I wanted to be very strong and hard road I wanted to [TS]

  be like a malleable and flexible and not not the shower in like with aluminum [TS]

  ladder now as well we still wanna make the bonds really thin we want to make [TS]

  them harder to bend and so can we make it so this is stronger aluminum [TS]

  hopefully maintain the weight but at a certain point like if you know like [TS]

  aluminum foil certain point it's gonna bend you need is a material that springs [TS]

  back is not going to spring back so you will reach a limit in thickness where a [TS]

  limited to just a non-starter because if you just keep saying we'll just make it [TS]

  so strongly you can't bended that will you won't be able to do that at a [TS]

  certain point between now and then so a revolution will come eventually and I'm [TS]

  sure Apple has been for many years now researching what will replace the limit [TS]

  them if anything and i think is it time to try to be great for radio reception [TS]

  and it would spring back better than than aluminum does then we would have to [TS]

  worry about then get as much but you know can be manufactured in the design 3 [TS]

  want to weaken machine carbon fiber yep the mold and it's really complicated and [TS]

  super expensive and so I think I'll be waiting awhile from the land of fantasy [TS]

  rumors based on violence and served as the liquid metal stuff that people have [TS]

  been fantasizing about four years who knows maybe there's something like that [TS]

  are in the Jets Jets thing you could have a material where where you can bend [TS]

  it but if you subjected to some sort of like if you put a backhand heater or [TS]

  you're like a plan electricity goes back to the original shape remember that yeah [TS]

  i do remember that the circuit boards inside don't really like spending too [TS]

  much either by the way my last break and then we can talk about Star Wars I won't [TS]

  tell you about it I'll a sponsor it's a good friends at Harry's now the holiday [TS]

  season is here this show will be airing tomorrow December 14th I think it's up [TS]

  till December 18th free shipping is over but they if you were up to the 18th [TS]

  holiday shipping economy shipping for the holidays and on the 18th so you got [TS]

  a couple of days this year probably listening to it if you're a fan of the [TS]

  show because I feel it is going to be big news the craig Venter he was on the [TS]

  show you've got till December 18 you can order you can pay for economy shipping [TS]

  it'll get there before Christmas [TS]

  what a great gift if there's any kind of men fathers brothers husbands in your [TS]

  life you can just buy the holiday kit they've got these holiday kits with [TS]

  razor blade with the handle with some shaving cream and stuff they sent me one [TS]

  that had this facial stuff you know you know you clean your face with it I like [TS]

  it is good my skin looks good with it [TS]

  really cool stuff awesome you know packaging this is one of the things you [TS]

  give them a gift he wanna give somebody give with razors to fight him these [TS]

  harry's things he opened it up it looks great makes you look like you have good [TS]

  taste [TS]

  go there check out these holiday kids and really great prices too high quality [TS]

  blade high-quality shaving creams and lotions and gels whatever you want in [TS]

  the thing so go there is save yourself the hassle I hate Christmas shopping [TS]

  good God Almighty this is the worst so I'm people stuff from sponsors of the [TS]

  show and get a mattress and get a machine kit from Harry's where do you go [TS]

  to find out more go to Harry's dot com and then use this code talk show [TS]

  know that their code either use that code and you'll save five bucks off your [TS]

  order and remember you got to the 18th December 18th 2015 and you can still get [TS]

  it [TS]

  express shipping for the holidays [TS]

  I'm worried to death about I've had two things on my mind the last week john [TS]

  i've had found out I stressing over this interview with Craig victory and wanted [TS]

  to do a good job with that and I don't want to have a Star Wars boilers and now [TS]

  I've got this interview out of the way we've got a little nasal post interview [TS]

  discussion with me and you about it I feel a great sense of relief in there [TS]

  are right now as I speak to you on Sunday December 13th now break out into [TS]

  a sweat worried about spoilers for the four seconds later you can just hide in [TS]

  your house I gotta go to an officer with people who people who may be watching [TS]

  the trailers in reading every single thing they can find out about these [TS]

  things and as you approach that you're right it's like when you get close to an [TS]

  Apple event like the day before that's when the real start coming like oh you [TS]

  know here's what's actually going to come out and you find that after the [TS]

  fact that actually that you know seven hour before thing with a hundred percent [TS]

  true my friend Moises Alou he's down in Austin he's big film fan he he's trying [TS]

  to get any easier [TS]

  his way into the press screening done there which is Tuesday morning but I [TS]

  think the big the big one is in Los Angeles tomorrow I think it's on Monday [TS]

  so I feel like and the critics I think usually know you know to keep to keep [TS]

  their spoilers themselves but that it's not just like it's not a critics on the [TS]

  screening my calls for anybody who's anybody in hollywood can go to the [TS]

  screening on Monday night [TS]

  blab about whatever the secrets are so that I don't know what to do like the [TS]

  stupid think pieces that are gonna be like I can't believe they did this thing [TS]

  and Star Wars have a big think piece about what it means for the franchise [TS]

  like no one's even seen the movie and don't have to think pieces on that and [TS]

  that's gonna make people go like that that's what I read the story and i dont [TS]

  wanna know so and I can't hide from the world like I can I can ignore the [TS]

  internet but at this people of the office who have read the thing pieces [TS]

  into discussing how amazing is the jar Jar Binks comes back and destroys [TS]

  everybody I got on here about it right and I'm so worried that it will it'll [TS]

  pop up in one of those you know I can get to the bottom of an article on most [TS]

  news sites today [TS]

  and they have these other things around the web you might wanna know I am so [TS]

  worried that they had you know what the headline and it'll be right there in [TS]

  front of course will be because it'll be a think piece that assumes everybody [TS]

  already knows this and it's like an hour want to discuss this I am i dont know [TS]

  it's almost like worst that I've been successful at keeping myself almost [TS]

  entirely spoiler free and I also have a good ability about ability in the long [TS]

  run but at least for this movie I can willfully forget something and so so [TS]

  like I can't even think there's been like at least two minor spoilers that [TS]

  I've encountered in the last few weeks and as I speak to you right now I can't [TS]

  bring them to mind and I think I could if I tried but i've i've you know [TS]

  there's weird ability in my mind to compartmentalize where i've i've kept [TS]

  him away and when I see them in the movie about that but I'd forgotten but i [TS]

  dont number that I can do that I'm trying to just like not think about the [TS]

  things I already know the future because I think about them off the aircraft [TS]

  outside just like I just avoid that part of my mind I don't even think about that [TS]

  I don't know if that's gonna work for the same type of thing like once it was [TS]

  like yeah I could have derived from the information i had at hand but I didn't [TS]

  want to so here's what I've done I just to be clear I did watch the first [TS]

  trailer and then I instance soon as it was over I was excited and then type it [TS]

  play again and watched again and then I thought shipp why did I watch that I [TS]

  shouldn't watch that I feel like I've already had and I i know that Gigi [TS]

  Abrams is sort of an anti spoiler director and largely it seems so far [TS]

  they've kept a lot of stuff under wraps it really seems like I could be wrong [TS]

  maybe there's other websites like the whole thing it spoiled I haven't seen it [TS]

  I trusted him to make a trailer that didn't really have spoilers I wouldn't [TS]

  say that it did I think it was a good trailer but I still regret it I still [TS]

  regret it I regret that i've seen the stupid lightsaber with the side blades I [TS]

  mean I i watch the first trailer to just because I was so desperate to not like [TS]

  what is this going to be like like what is what is it even gonna look like they [TS]

  were going to go with this franchise it could have was gonna look like the [TS]

  trailer for Prometheus and be like it dark and gritty was gonna look like [TS]

  tomorrow and be happy like it like how it but is there are taken stores gonna [TS]

  be so I felt like I had to watch the first trailer but after that I have been [TS]

  off tonight so far my barriers how the pretty well through a series of filters [TS]

  and people are nice to me everything but the one place has been tearing down the [TS]

  television shows almost almost any wanna tell you this but I discovered by thirty [TS]

  seconds giving threads on my Tivo as the 32nd skip on by Kathleen frame that my [TS]

  mind to register as Star Wars will come by and it was enough for me to know that [TS]

  oh my god they're running they're running Star Wars t vs I don't know if [TS]

  you knew this but I'm on television their ads for this movie I did and it's [TS]

  my my weakness for sports got me I was watching i watch the Dallas Cowboys [TS]

  Redskins on Monday Night Football and apparently it seemed to me is though [TS]

  that Disney had purchased a commercial in every city at least one homer in [TS]

  every single commercial break [TS]

  Lake true carpet bombing marketing campaign and there is you know there's I [TS]

  took to like skipping through the commercials like with my this is the way [TS]

  you can do it but I'd skip through the commercials with my good clothes I was [TS]

  only using by listening with you could hear my damaged left [TS]

  which I could still see certain things and had like a sense of some things that [TS]

  were going on and that's a red lights at least the details were blurred out yeah [TS]

  when I saw that the single frames I got nothing from it and i was i was [TS]

  satisfied with that because like most numbers easier framed and like once [TS]

  every spike shows that was the one frame depending on where it landed but the [TS]

  other day the very first commercial like the very first commercial in the [TS]

  commercial break was a star is on and I got like half a sentence like you know [TS]

  you're not yet to find the remote you gotta pick it up again in like I was I [TS]

  was too slow on the draw in the Old West I got shot I really don't know how this [TS]

  week is gonna go especially once people start saying I got my ticket my first [TS]

  screening is Thursday night which I'd simply cheating to me if it if it [TS]

  premieres on Friday I don't know how I'm going to attend o'clock Thursday I [TS]

  mention this because of that it was at a writer not the store after the Aurora [TS]

  shooting in Colorado that the midnight showing stopping at midnight I i feel [TS]

  like that was happening before that but so it's like it's like it so my 10 [TS]

  o'clock Thursday night screening is a midnight screening but there's like an [TS]

  asterisk which is we know it's not like they do 7 p.m. screen but give the [TS]

  midnight show is now 7 p.m. it's like you know Christmas tree brings to the [TS]

  midnight showing of the Wednesday before ya like the Saturday night seven o'clock [TS]

  mass Catholic [TS]

  well recall it sunday sunday someone must have my my show is on Thursday as [TS]

  well so then Friday I'm gonna spoil everything for everybody else I just [TS]

  feel so much better if I make it into that and like I said they'd be the most [TS]

  dangerous time I saw the most dangerous times when you're waiting in line and [TS]

  people coming out of the theater especially if the fear that doesn't [TS]

  exist to help the back like if the people who are done saying we walked [TS]

  past the people who are still waiting to see the movie too pretentious yeah yeah [TS]

  famous to everybody as famous steven parker [TS]

  famous to everybody as famous steven parker [TS]

  stories of waiting in line for The Empire Strikes Back and in some deep [TS]

  shit runs by and purposefully screams at the top of his lungs dorothy is Luke's [TS]

  father and the age of Internet trailing I remember seeing this terribly YouTube [TS]

  video of someone driving a car passed the people lined up waiting for like [TS]

  whatever was the fifth book some Harry Potter book was something dramatic [TS]

  happens other people than expected that people are waiting in line at the [TS]

  bookstore and get like an open letter by the copy the book and someone like films [TS]

  at four YouTube drives past and yells a phrase that I'm not going to yell [TS]

  because well Harry Potter bunch of little kids let's do this but yeltsin to [TS]

  the entire line and the worst part is like they don't know if it's true he [TS]

  could appear person could be making stuff up but in your heart of hearts [TS]

  like as you're reading the book as they approach you like that country's right [TS]

  to be rude don't be that person that's the worst thing ever [TS]

  what's the only Star Wars movie that doesn't take have some part of it take [TS]

  place on tattooing has it one of the fake ones now it's not one of the empire [TS]

  gathered all the fake ones have seen some special [TS]

  addition to that Empire da remember just added cars on the Jedi who knows what [TS]

  the hell I would like to cut away as big circular white from day to day going to [TS]

  asteroid field they they cut to the Droid two earlier on the stand or like [TS]

  like when they first start hunting for the Millennium Falcon Lake that there's [TS]

  a phone call from Darth Vader to the boba Fett enjoy Jabba's palace career I [TS]

  need it looks really concerned about is like how did those bounty hunters all [TS]

  get onto the desktop I want to see them change your diet like that he took like [TS]

  evaders shuttle taking him from point A to point B so are confused about how he [TS]

  arrived like the closet here whenever they're in their spaceships you need to [TS]

  see it I think I don't want to get into it that some of the additions like [TS]

  there's the when you get into the list of lightweight was taken out of the D [TS]

  specialized or whatever you want to call it the ones they were taken out of the D [TS]

  specialized you no shame is that prints or the you know what was added to the [TS]

  specialized everybody thinks of hotshot on shooting first and all of these [TS]

  gratuitous things in the ridiculous CGI backgrounds they put behind the windows [TS]

  of best man in all these things that really really stand out or or the [TS]

  god-awful CGI stuff they added to most guys in a new hope [TS]

  it's the little things though like your anger your boiling anger is over these [TS]

  big changes that really stand out and just don't add anything and take away [TS]

  some of the magic but then when you read some of the little things that Lucas had [TS]

  added you like what this man went insane like it's the little things that make [TS]

  you realize that that somehow lost his marbles the one night I had forgotten [TS]

  about until I was reminded I think in some slight channels on where they were [TS]

  talking to you about it was the day about when our tickets bit out of the [TS]

  swamp creature and the actual line in the movie as you're lucky you don't [TS]

  taste very good that's what Luke system which is a good laugh line you know [TS]

  whatever firstly situation and it changed it to a less funny line like [TS]

  it's not like he was like you're lucky you got out of there but no no the first [TS]

  the first one was better it was adding a little bit of levity was sarcastic it [TS]

  was and Luke is kind of like sarcastic grin and a little bit cranky and that [TS]

  seemed to its preference like you like you know taste very good you're lucky [TS]

  you got out of there that's your improvements like you know when you [TS]

  bring some and the punch of the script this is the opposite [TS]

  unconscious down it it's that's a perfect example maybe the canonical [TS]

  example maybe that's the best example because it it sounds inconsequential but [TS]

  it was a little funny and it's not funny at all and it also was like establishes [TS]

  the characters it is like hey Luke and are to have a friendship right is not [TS]

  just a device that owned by Luke he's you know there's a rapport between these [TS]

  two and you know everybody has seen the first one knows there are two D two is [TS]

  clearly a sort of sarcastic wise ass right he's a wiseass robot you don't [TS]

  know what he's saying but you can tell from 3 p.m. is responses that he is a [TS]

  wise ass [TS]

  and Luke is giving it back to it actually is meaningful in some small way [TS]

  in terms of shaping the relationship between the characters it and it fits [TS]

  perfectly messy like I think the one of my favorite cuts database occurrences [TS]

  where Michael Lucas just think he just crashed ship everything's all crappy and [TS]

  it's like is drawing was attacked by a monster and spit out he's covered with [TS]

  water as recover the money like I know we're doing here and aren't you like to [TS]

  end the scene are true expels mud room on his back and my comment basically [TS]

  sums that up just like slapstick slapstick comedy comedy and also [TS]

  commentary on the situation we're just you know what this is crap we're we're [TS]

  not doing well they're so too rapid what what is your expectation think there's [TS]

  going to be a movie that makes you happy or you think it's gonna be another [TS]

  disappointment to you have shown us you should put the US ever talked about on [TS]

  the show notes in Campbell about anticipating [TS]

  to some but I said there I'm of two minds about it on the one hand when I [TS]

  might wanna little breasts are to get depressed because I'm like there is just [TS]

  no way that this can be as meaningful to me is the original three movies I would [TS]

  just like you know whatever like I start to think that there's just no way this [TS]

  can be as meaningful me to me because things you experience in your formative [TS]

  years always have a certain extra amount of impact but on the other hand I said [TS]

  well but isn't it possible it's not as if as an adult [TS]

  it is impossible to get the possible to be affecting and I will try to do is [TS]

  think of what media movies or whatever have seen as an adult [TS]

  have like really stuck with me and effectively just miss lee to put like [TS]

  what what is the bar like have I just become such a great individual that no [TS]

  movie can really get to me so I should just put that out of my mind the stores [TS]

  is not going to be like that and when I came back to his like a lot of the [TS]

  Miyazaki movies I saw as an adult [TS]

  really stick with me in a meaningful and important movies that I would put it [TS]

  right up there with the Star Wars movies and then maybe the not as big because [TS]

  they've brought into them [TS]

  price on this adult miss me when I'm doing it reassuring myself that movie [TS]

  can get to and that's the top bar and then the other thing had to say is like [TS]

  so you've decided that you as an adult [TS]

  able to be affected by what we what if you watch this movie this new Star Wars [TS]

  movie and it's merely a pretty good movie are you ok with that and when I [TS]

  used as a Star Trek movies like the reason reboot star trek's I enjoyed [TS]

  those and when I rewatch them I said you know this is a fun movie but I don't [TS]

  really care that much about Star Trek's it is way less baggage there but but [TS]

  I've been trying to think about is if I go into this movie is not the most [TS]

  amazing movie ever saw but it competently made its fun exciting I have [TS]

  fun watching it do I say yeah but it was Star Wars and it's supposed to be way [TS]

  better than that or do I am I able to enjoy it the same way that I can enjoy [TS]

  the Star Trek movies that I care way WAY less about and I don't know what the [TS]

  answer that is but it really comes down to it I think I believe it is possible [TS]

  for for this movie to be really important and meaningful [TS]

  I think it probably won't be and I'm trying to be ok with with it merely [TS]

  being a good fun movie just me being so much so excited that it was like the [TS]

  people I my big fear is I feel like the big problem with the prequels was [TS]

  whether somebody on weekend we've talked to talk about the midline on this show [TS]

  and others but to meet at a fundamental level it's that the characters were flat [TS]

  and the dialogue is flat and there is no comma robbery and and no sand in it and [TS]

  then plot wise and story was there is no sense of mystery in fact the whole point [TS]

  of the prequel trilogy was to explain all the mysteries that the original [TS]

  trailer trilogy light on [TS]

  and I've said this before like it always seemed like the original trilogy could [TS]

  have you know any rumors from when we were kids that Lucas the next three [TS]

  movies wouldn't be after the return of the Jedi they would be before when Ben [TS]

  Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker were younger and it always seemed like well of course [TS]

  he could do that because my god there's so much stuff that they could explain [TS]

  what the hell the clone wars were the Emperor came to be how the Emperor [TS]

  Empire came to be all of these things could you know could be a movie but the [TS]

  fact that they were were mysteries or gently vaguely alluded to it gave away [TS]

  to the original trilogy that the prequels didn't have called they tried [TS]

  to do is piss away and explain everything right down to explaining how [TS]

  the forced word I don't think that's gonna be a problem I feel ajja ajja [TS]

  abrahams knows how to do is have engaging characters in a sense of [TS]

  camaraderie and and good at syria good ear for dialogue my big concern is that [TS]

  the modern needs or or perceived needs in hollywood of a big budget action [TS]

  movie are such that there's no way you know it's still gonna be filled with a [TS]

  hundred and ten minutes of CGI action chases yeah talk about that in the [TS]

  context of like modern movie-making sensibilities biggest star trek's again [TS]

  as example you see in those red yes I like to pressure ya specially like the [TS]

  first one yeah and so those definitely look at Star Trek with modern [TS]

  movie-making sensibilities and I like them like I thought they were enjoyable [TS]

  but you have to say like those movies are Star Trek as re-imagined through the [TS]

  lens of a modern filmmaker and for the Star Wars things I i really fervently [TS]

  hope that jay jay is a big enough Star Wars fan that what they do what he does [TS]

  instead is [TS]

  you know if this certain Star Wars magic that I wanna feel this movie not that [TS]

  it's any worse or better than modern movie-making sensibilities but it's a [TS]

  different set of sensibilities that inform the original trilogy and I feel [TS]

  like those those still work and are still fresh so I want this movie to feel [TS]

  like Star Wars first and foremost I don't want to feel like Star Wars as [TS]

  seen through the lens of a modern filmmaker [TS]

  continuum things like you're on one side or the other but I desperately want this [TS]

  and again I use Miyazaki's my music movies about all sorts of different [TS]

  topics across decades but they all feel like Miyazaki movies so I'm ok with this [TS]

  movie being different from the original trilogy in fundamental ways but it has [TS]

  to feel like Star Wars shouldn't feel like a modern movie a modern reimagining [TS]

  of stars I wanted to feel like just these three after that [TS]

  find that totally re-imagined everything about it but I want these three movie [TS]

  7892 feel like Star Wars yeah that's a good way to put it I agree and it was a [TS]

  it is it's almost like a branding thing you know that there was a certain way [TS]

  that the original series just lacked bombastic it seems I mean the space [TS]

  battle in Return of the Jedi sort of I think said that set the stage for modern [TS]

  action movies and it was so awesome at the time and I do love it and it's one [TS]

  of my favorite things in the return of the Jedi it's fantastic [TS]

  the way that the ships are so dynamic and the camera moves around and stuff [TS]

  like that but [TS]

  it's it's if you'd just use it stopped watching measure how much of the movie [TS]

  is taken up by that battle it's actually very little because it was so incredibly [TS]

  hard for them to do it you know that the computer-controlled where everything was [TS]

  actually like an actual model ended in the modern filmmaking where it's once [TS]

  you have all the stuff setup you can just let like you know like it the way [TS]

  the transformer movies where they're really just two hours eg ID chases [TS]

  through us you know where transformers are throwing themselves into skyscrapers [TS]

  and trying to think about what is the make something feel like Star Wars a lot [TS]

  of it is the limitations of motion control cameras and the you know the [TS]

  seventies and eighties right that define the look of the space battles because [TS]

  what can you do with remote-controlled camera with you this move that move that [TS]

  move in this movie optically composite them together and that kind of defines [TS]

  it but also stuff that didn't have any new technology like how its courthouses [TS]

  like music behind everything hurts or Castro like that's not the modern way [TS]

  movies are scored that is that is an older way movies are scored like it's [TS]

  not not done you know John Williams doesn't put orchestra behind the [TS]

  Transformers movie during like every scene like Star Wars movies are [TS]

  practically musicals for the amount of music within them and the type of music [TS]

  is weird old style of music so you can go a long way towards making me feel [TS]

  like Star Wars without you know like yes you can do anything it's easy but make [TS]

  it feel kind of like stores any can you can do a twist I like in the trailer [TS]

  that we both saw the the camera movement around the Millennium Falcon was doing [TS]

  all these strange maneuvers couldn't really do that easily with remote [TS]

  control camera especially with the crazy background that our thing you can do is [TS]

  TJ's but in some sense it still feels Star Wars because lots of the swoopy [TS]

  moves where the cameras following the ship in the ship was twirling around [TS]

  this is just like that [TS]

  cranked up a little bit more it is the difference between that and like the [TS]

  like the fancy fancy way that hon piloted the Falcon into the asteroid [TS]

  crater in Empire Strikes that it was like this exuberant straight up straight [TS]

  down paper clip you know like you motion [TS]

  show you the show off type accompanied by ascending and descending scale the [TS]

  soundtrack ran aground Williams with a total the star wars type thing and [TS]

  comparing it to like member did you watch the Battlestar Galactica reboot [TS]

  birdies to do the thing that made it look like the Vipers or whatever were [TS]

  being filmed by someone with a hand-held camera faraway so shaken and they would [TS]

  do that they really dramatic zoom in to acquire the ship and then try to get it [TS]

  centered in the frame like someone trying to catch like a long how Mary [TS]

  pass like a cameraman trying to where the hell is the football I got a new man [TS]

  these days so that the hell marion like they were held the camera back the whole [TS]

  time don't have all the ball anymore whatever the hell happened to NFL Films [TS]

  think spiralling towards you that take any way you can you can make something [TS]

  you like Star Wars and be modern without making it look like Battlestar Galactica [TS]

  like all of a sudden everything is handled shaky cam and their stickam the [TS]

  trailer some I cannot say you can't use shaky cam you totally can adjust [TS]

  overall I want the movie to feel like I'm part of that to me is that to you [TS]

  have to let certain scenes just just let them breathe and don't worry about [TS]

  whether there's a lot going on like give us something that's a mystery give us [TS]

  something new and then just let us figure it out like some of my favorite [TS]

  scenes in the original trilogy or just like r2d2 by himself just off and the [TS]

  desert on Tatooine and you just slowly what's r2d2 roll across the desert but [TS]

  there's it's engaging because you're like well where the hell is this robot [TS]

  going yeah like Empire my favorite like this there's so many scenes the dan like [TS]

  with with the mud being spit out that's the end of that scene before they cut to [TS]

  a different one is like how does that it does not conclude with a line or an [TS]

  event or a call to action to contend with the feeling just showing like [TS]

  something you know you're a walking off into the misty Swapan Lucas and stay at [TS]

  the camp like something is going to happen when you're left with the feeling [TS]

  how are the characters feeling this morning I did Jack did or the hopeful [TS]

  are they cautious are they afraid [TS]

  that's so much more important than ending every scene with a call to action [TS]

  that leads to the next and we have to do the whatever and then go show the one [TS]

  ever has I get excited about this movie Amy keeps reminding me of the movie AI [TS]

  and which was written by Stanley Kubrick producer credit but it came out after he [TS]

  died but the basic story is that he was a movie he had been discovered had been [TS]

  developing for a long time many years and decided that he didn't want to [TS]

  directed at Gilbert should directed because it needed a warm human empathy [TS]

  that he knew that his movies lacked coldness would be the wrong way to [TS]

  approach it and so he called up Steven Spielberg and said you know I got this [TS]

  movie would you want to work with me and Spielberg is a huge coup Bert van and [TS]

  they'd been friends over the phone for years [TS]

  ok and in poor guy died but Gilbert made it anyway and we're going to see it [TS]

  opening night of course I could not wait to see it opening night and I pause and [TS]

  another friend with me and my friend and I just said I just want to make a [TS]

  prediction here I think there's a very strong chance to we're about to see the [TS]

  greatest movie that ever seen any other Spielberg movies like that he's got [TS]

  human worth that's what I said going into seriously I said in all seriousness [TS]

  I wanted it like I wanted the being right points I think we might be going [TS]

  to I believe there's a good chance that we might be going to see the greatest [TS]

  movie that I mean that the day I was incredibly terrible but it was not get [TS]

  it missed the mark I think most people agree I don't think it makes it it's not [TS]

  a bad movie but it is certainly bad given the pedigree of the so that's [TS]

  that's baby keeps providing you with the force is weak and strong protections but [TS]

  now we're cautiously optimistic [TS]

  everything going for like the thing I think about this movie that the things [TS]

  that they did it to exist is the reason exists at all lucas tells gets him out [TS]

  of the pictures that were not to worry about his pillows messing with things [TS]

  and who they get to directed the guy who's basically admitted so many times I [TS]

  like that he's super big star Wars fan like when he when he directed Star Trek [TS]

  Online what kind of a shame cuz he's always said it's not a big star wars [TS]

  phineas and I'm sure he like Star Trek I'm sure he'll do a good job but why [TS]

  wouldn't it be great if you could you start but now he's done Star Trek [TS]

  there's no way he's got a Star Trek and Star Wars well he got to like [TS]

  essentially warm up on the lesser franchise Star Trek right and pound and [TS]

  hone his craft over a series of movies and television shows over the years and [TS]

  then you could say like he's at the top of his game now filling his childhood [TS]

  fantasy as anyone child did you know child in a similar age to direct a new [TS]

  Star Wars movie and he's the guy doing it right now there's been created [TS]

  tensions between him and people who are running the franchise and that kind of [TS]

  makes me worry about the future this whatever but boy the stars really [TS]

  aligned for both US and JDM to have I like to do errands I like his other [TS]

  movies I like they got to practice on star track and I really hope that he [TS]

  liked uses all the skills and all his powers in the Godfather parlance [TS]

  just like put everything he has into this this you know it's it's his [TS]

  childhood dreams as long as well as aris tied up in this movie I really hope it [TS]

  comes together so I I'm optimistic we'll see how it goes anyway [TS]

  John Siracusa thank you for your time has been extremely generous of you we've [TS]

  gone on Craig didn't take all my time as you know I told you weren't gonna get [TS]

  you john was worried when I asked him to do the show that he'd get short-changed [TS]

  on time because of the battery segment not to worry just make a three hour show [TS]

  whenever big long big long healthy holiday meal [TS]

  healthy thank all of our sponsors we've got harry's go to them by their shaving [TS]

  stuff well front you can invest your money [TS]

  Squarespace you can build your own website and password you can buy a [TS]

  mattress which I'd again I'm telling you what a holiday gift idea [TS]

  John Siracusa you can find him on his weekly podcast with the other guys ATP [TS]

  accidental tech podcast ATP . FM and he's just at Syracuse Twitter anything [TS]

  else you covered thank you john thank you [TS]