132: ‘Peace, Porn, and Privacy’, With Guest Marco Arment

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0:00:00I'm worried because I feel like when every run the show we always going by

0:00:04far the longest guests like my feeling we could go back if we ever need to do

0:00:08like a charity target on me and you would be over 12 hours and then this

0:00:15time we actually have a lot to talk so I'm a little concerned but well maybe

0:00:19not part of it did you hear we don't talk anymore that you got to me and that

0:00:25somehow it with the specifics are are kind of vague as to how how you got to

0:00:31me and what that means but somehow you got to me and we don't talk anymore

0:00:36has valuable said that have been further speculation though there were on the out

0:00:41oh my god I mean

0:00:43fortunately it's it's died down the last few days I think people are finally

0:00:46moved on from the peace saga which is good you know has a very short attention

0:00:50span and that that is both a blessing and a curse it is it is definitely a

0:00:55blessing when you are on the receiving end of it so that is nice but yeah I

0:01:00heard I i read and got emailed and heard lots of interesting theories about the

0:01:05conspiracy between you and I or that that you got to me or paid me off

0:01:12because people couldn't possibly believe that the story was what I said it was

0:01:18that I didn't want to be in this business after all so I exited it right

0:01:23you told this story on your podcast ATP

0:01:27what is now the last episode I'm guessing you coming out tomorrow but the

0:01:32today already out well I have no license so you can stop me of which are covered

0:01:38some stuff but last week said this already covered the peace then your more

0:01:41or less long very very long story very short is that what you were out as

0:01:47always is exactly the truth you you are one of the most almost painfully honest

0:01:52people I have ever met like when you you almost can't even bring yourself

0:01:56to tell like white lies you know I mean if you go through something like this

0:02:03and then you explain yourself in public during what you say is the honest to god

0:02:07truth so it's very funny that everybody would just assume that it could be

0:02:12something else and I depart the part of the story that is the best was that that

0:02:16you know people who listen ATP last week know this that you get it was last

0:02:22thursday was a Friday I don't know what day of the week it was but I was at the

0:02:28dentist was waiting to go and you texted me in your like I think I'm gonna pull

0:02:32piece from the App Store and I texted dude I don't do it don't be rash wait

0:02:38wait on out of the darkness and I got home and it was already pulled from the

0:02:41App Store and it was there I literally you did not you know poll a lot of

0:02:46people you kind of made it obviously you've made up your mind because you

0:02:50know I told you not to do it we will get to I will explain why I thought you

0:02:54shouldn't do it but it did amused me greatly though then afterwards when I

0:03:00did notice immediately afterwards there are an awful lot of people who assume

0:03:03that it was pressure from me

0:03:05somebody's somebody said that it was like that may include all showed up with

0:03:09baseball bat that I would love to see that it's especially fun because I was

0:03:16literally just hang out with you include all like four days earlier

0:03:20yeah it was also heard I really need to people I heard people people thought

0:03:29that Apple paid me off which is the funniest i think is like I was making

0:03:33money you know promoting their platform doing everything they wanted me to do it

0:03:39and it wasn't also it also wasn't one of those things like today

0:03:48view widgets right where they say okay now over here in this today's green on

0:03:54my website called it doesn't matter whatever you know what you can to get

0:03:58you can put a widget in there and when they first open this out there were

0:04:06people who made things that did things that were

0:04:08were creatively outside the purview of what they expected people to to make and

0:04:16then you know I think one of the ones it was an early victim of this was a peek

0:04:21out the calculator

0:04:23computation of that was more than they kind of I think they envisioned it is

0:04:28more just like a status

0:04:29the weather whatever and when people were actually doing real things over

0:04:36Apple you know this isn't that it wasn't like they were breaking into wasn't

0:04:43using prove private API they were using a public API is in ways that Apple

0:04:46didn't vision for peace was not like late you you use of the content blocking

0:04:51abyei's in a way that they didn't envision it was almost like right down

0:04:55the middle

0:04:56the canonical this is exactly the sort of thing that they envisioned would be

0:05:01yeah I mean I got a couple of responses here and there from inside of apple and

0:05:06they were all extremely positive they they did they definitely did not want to

0:05:11pull from the App Store as far as you know based on the implication that they

0:05:15would have hated it for some reason like I mean you know they're they're not very

0:05:20generous with their communication but it sure seemed like people and Apple are

0:05:23big fans of it and I pulled it and place the burden on them to try to issue of

0:05:30these refunds first manually and then eventually admitted that batch thing

0:05:33that could have been pleasant for them either

0:05:37and certainly could have been cheap to have to process refunds and and you know

0:05:40just the manpower alone of president's refunds was was going to be probably

0:05:45significant so yeah I hate to hear that Apple may be off to do all this was

0:05:51pretty entertaining I also heard that advertisers somehow paid me off I man

0:05:58and after sit at the top of the App Store paid after if that could have SAT

0:06:02there for like a month I don't know if anyone else would have been able to

0:06:06afford to pay for it it was it would have made a ton of money and that's you

0:06:11know that's assuming a lot of course but if we could have sex for awhile you know

0:06:15that would have been would have been a good amount of money but you know it's

0:06:18it's it would have thought that was it

0:06:21would have felt it would have felt like making a ton of money off of like drug

0:06:25dealer didn't it didn't feel right you know that was the whole point i'm

0:06:30looking right now actually have not been paying attention to see what is top that

0:06:35topped charts top aide is arrayed Tweetbot for today between bud yeah but

0:06:43number two is purify anything up there for a while and pure purify I forget

0:06:49what I think you have to look grossing didn't even register call candy candy

0:06:56crush yeah that's that's not there for a while I was at 11 pieces top data one

0:07:02full day of the majority was grossing that I think that number seventeen or

0:07:06eighteen for a little while not for the whole day but that was that was the

0:07:09pecan and it was able to fall down the grossing ranks pretty far while still

0:07:14being number one in the page are TV you know it the volumes are much lower

0:07:18obviously and paid but yeah it would mean any app that's gonna sit there

0:07:22anywhere like in the top 20 paid making really good money for a while so and I

0:07:27don't you know if other people want to go in there and make a ton of money

0:07:31making a bunkers that's fine like I'm willing and happy to yield that ground

0:07:36to other people that's why did you know it I got there

0:07:39realized I really didn't like being there and left yeah I actually haven't

0:07:45looked in a while it seems weird to me though I thought that there would be a

0:07:48couple of there but it looks like it's all down to purify now I don't see any

0:07:53of the others although maybe maybe they're on the free list in there I

0:07:56don't know which one to popular that there are a couple that would be popular

0:08:00for a while crystal and purify were neck and neck and then I think maybe here

0:08:04maybe crystals thing with the example adds that I mean that's a whole other

0:08:08drama that I don't really want to get into because I am NOT happily anymore

0:08:13but it that's the kind of thing where it just shows how incredibly messy and

0:08:20difficult this business is and it's a perfect example of why I don't want to

0:08:24be in it after all because it is just a very messy and very difficult as we

0:08:29record on Thursday October 1st crystal is all the way down 32

0:08:33top paid and I guess it purifies number 22 obviously there's been some

0:08:39divergence there but you you you know and there is this weird self

0:08:43perpetuating this you know we've talked about this is so many different contexts

0:08:47ever since the App Store opened but once something is a top these charts it tends

0:08:51to stay there because one of the ways that people people here hey I hear

0:08:55there's odd blockers for iOS they go to the AppStore where do they go to the top

0:08:59chart they see one that looks reasonable to top of the charts and they got it and

0:09:02by that time then they get it

0:09:05purify works you know definitely does what it says on the 10th so then they're

0:09:09done you know they've just spent two or three bucks or whatever it costs on

0:09:12their thing and they're done and then none of the other two being a top is a

0:09:15huge advantage so you you know peace having started at the top I think

0:09:19there's a very good chance that it would still be there today if you maybe but

0:09:25the same time like you know right now you could see like purify has already

0:09:28fallen to number two you know we'll see you know how much it stays at the top of

0:09:32how much it falls over time I mean it's only been a couple of weeks and it's

0:09:36been a pretty short time so I don't even know if I would be able to be there for

0:09:38a month I don't even know if that would have happened you know there's no way to

0:09:40know and I don't matter like I also wonder how much this is going to be one

0:09:46of those things where it's not like sustained

0:09:49not that it's an unsustainable business could only get that much development

0:09:53work to keep it going but that let's say fifteen to twenty percent of Iowa's

0:09:59users might be interested in a content Booker well how soon until all of them

0:10:04already have one and then I'm not sure if it's gonna be a chart-topper

0:10:10in perpetuity and we tried speculating on that an ATP like like what percentage

0:10:16of Iowa's people are likely to actually install and critically enable an ad

0:10:21blocker and we came to about 10% being our estimate of people who would

0:10:26actually enable it also goes through the settings menu and diving safari settings

0:10:31actually turn it on in a in a convoluted so then the idea that a bloggers are

0:10:37going to all of a sudden ruin everyone's lives I i think is unlikely and probably

0:10:44exaggerated

0:10:47likely I don't think it's likely that it would be that much different than on the

0:10:51desktop and then the desktop I that I pulled the 15% from what i think is what

0:10:57people estimators the desktop number and obviously that changes

0:11:02changes a lot based on the audience you know I know Ars Technica

0:11:06is really really hit hard by that because their audiences is technically

0:11:11adept you know my site probably has to some extent just because at least

0:11:15there's a high percentage of people who read my saved who know what an ad

0:11:19blocker is in you know feel very very confident installing an extension it's

0:11:25also worth pointing out like you know there's a lot of people it's also worth

0:11:31pointing out that there's there's a lot of all those people who installed the ad

0:11:35blockers who are more likely to bloggers like like nerds who visit our site and

0:11:39your site how likely were they to click on the display ads to begin with you

0:11:45know a guy I bet the race I mean I've always kind of suspected that display

0:11:49ads on the internet are mostly supported by inadvertent accidental clicks or

0:11:56people who don't realize they're clicking on that you click who are

0:11:59misled into clicking on it by it looking like content or buy one of those like

0:12:04stupid story i'd like you know top 10 ways to lift your face up like all those

0:12:08crazy things like I always kind of suspected that the bulk of display

0:12:12advertising online was being click through and funded by accident or

0:12:19novices hurdle by ignorance in confusion

0:12:23yeah it's really a 10 I'm sure that I'm sure that all of it but I bet it's a lot

0:12:29more than both the advertisers on the publisher's would like to believe

0:12:34well it's it is truly a they they truly opened a Pandora's box

0:12:40way back in the nineties when they first started measuring clicks in first place

0:12:45and I i've link to this over the years numerous contexts talking about that but

0:12:50it's come back up again it it it is absolutely a case of be careful what you

0:12:56measure coming to buy them

0:12:59because at first when nobody was trying to gain system at all the idea of

0:13:04counting the actual clicks on the ad was amazing because nobody ever knew when

0:13:09you when you put an ad in a magazine you have a good gas that the circulation

0:13:15numbers are probably pretty accurate because they were you know industry

0:13:19standards in a maybe they tried to fight him a little bit for the most part it is

0:13:22so expensive to print magazines they couldn't be that far off but how many

0:13:27people actually read your ad of it on page 13 you know how many people skip

0:13:31right past it you know what what was the register to actually be able to measure

0:13:35it in a meaningful way

0:13:36TV commercials could never really be measured if there was no gaming if

0:13:42everybody was honest in world which is probably the biggest stupidest if I've

0:13:46ever put forward counting the clicks on ads would be great and it it did at

0:13:52first web advertising was super super expensive per customer

0:14:00you know everyone a measure that because it could be measured but then as soon as

0:14:05people could you know as soon as it started working people immediately

0:14:08started gaming it in various ways so it's you know once and once they started

0:14:13going down that path it was and still is to this day the fact that they try to

0:14:17measure then you have all these problems with click fraud and botnets doing click

0:14:23fraud and all this stuff it's it's a whole world of people trying to beat

0:14:29each other off it's just disgusting to me that's one of the reasons why I do

0:14:33wanna be in business after all just it's just it's just a dirty messy world at a

0:14:38fundamental level the way I view advertising is even online is that it

0:14:42fundamentally no different than advertising in print or on TV and in

0:14:46which is to say that it is primarily about awareness making people aware

0:14:51maybe people who've never heard of your product making them aware of that for

0:14:54the first time or if they have heard of it

0:14:57reinforcing it with your brand

0:15:00you know you know if it's some kind of visual ad

0:15:03or with some kind of message about it like for example like the ads I'll be

0:15:07reading during this podcast where you're not seeing anything but you can hear

0:15:11these talking points here's what they wanted to know about it so that you have

0:15:16it in your head so that if you need a new mattress you can think what about

0:15:19that one of these podcasts are talking about or something like that just saw it

0:15:23in your head

0:15:24awareness the fact that online ad can actually lead to engagement quicker

0:15:30meaning you know you can just click on an ad and go and you're already at the

0:15:36field notes website and you can't buy the notebook writer that that's great

0:15:40but that should just be you know anybody who's deciding how much to spend on line

0:15:44vs printer on TV that should just be icing on the cake it's still should

0:15:49primarily be look if we put an ad on this website we think we can expect a

0:15:53hundred thousand people will see it and we roughly know that there you know the

0:15:59demographics are like this that's really all that they should be looking at but

0:16:03the fact that they think that they can identify people will spend this money

0:16:07and it'll only go to people who searched in Google Maps for an oil change in the

0:16:12last 25 days it's just crazy and it leads to all sorts of sickness and all

0:16:19sorts of really creepy and perverse incentives and behavior like it's it's

0:16:25one of those worlds where anybody who who is kind of privacy in and sensibly

0:16:32minded or anybody who has really strong ethics i think is often driven out of

0:16:38business like it they won't do it someone else will you guys on ATP days

0:16:45compared it to the industry and I think you guys kind of backed away from

0:16:51because it's almost like wow that's really strong commitment but I actually

0:16:53think it's actually really I think that's not a bad comparison at all

0:16:57in terms of its not remove any judgment of whether the existence of pornography

0:17:05in and of itself has any sort of moral you know it's just that you end up in

0:17:16programming in doing things that are you know whoever is implementing it is

0:17:22unhealthy right you know if it's some kind of paper thing for porno you your

0:17:31you know that their their setup and somebody had to program the system that

0:17:35enables somebody who's got like an addiction to the stuff to just keep

0:17:39spending as much money as they can

0:17:41that's you know that is absolutely immoral and you there's somebody feels

0:17:47really guilty about that or somebody who wrote that code just doesn't have a

0:17:51moral compass that point that way a lot of this stuff the programmatic stuff and

0:17:56advertising is it down that path you know it's maybe not quite as far but

0:18:01it's pretty pretty bad you know that you're doing things that you know that

0:18:06the user isn't happy about that isn't good for them and that they wouldn't

0:18:10want to know exactly what's going on and one of the problems that that you know

0:18:16if so that's the side of the advertiser the side of the ad blocker of like the

0:18:20person or company making and running the ad blocker itself that faces an

0:18:26interesting dilemma where and I think you see this playing out with us

0:18:30glad things with a buck plus and crystal on the controversy stirred up the end

0:18:36and some things you said about the Deccan everything I have had their

0:18:38privacy policy everything on whether in a question of whether the deck should be

0:18:42should count as an ever-present should be blocked one of the problems here I

0:18:46faces with Instapaper back forever ago i fix the problem that what people

0:18:53actually wanted was to get the articles without ever hearing the ads will even

0:18:59once they wanted me to go out and scrape new articles for them they'd never seen

0:19:03before and show them immediately in the in the ad strip TextView like that's

0:19:08what people actually want

0:19:10and what's actually healthy for publishers and for the world i'm for me

0:19:13legally was not to do things like that it was to say you know ok well im gonna

0:19:18say things you have viewed in your web browser that's that's different and it

0:19:22was it was always a really tricky balance because the the user base

0:19:26the customer the market was pushing me to go over that line and I would always

0:19:31try to hold back a little bit but not all my competitors didn't hurt me and I

0:19:36think in the ad blocker industry I think you're going to see the same thing which

0:19:39is you know we can talk all we want about how you well I also wanted to

0:19:45compare that kind of to piracy and it's not these aren't great comparison so

0:19:49please email us but you know if it's it has some overlap is is what I will say

0:19:54about that and in a sense that like you know making a blocker is kind of like

0:19:58making money from piracy it's like well people are going to pay me to hi

0:20:03everyone else's ads and I can say well I can justify it with reasons XYZ

0:20:08manufacturer perfectly valid things like security tracking etc

0:20:12those are all very valid reasons but if I made a blocker that only blocked

0:20:18tracking and still showed ads nobody would want it because what people

0:20:24actually want is to block all the ads and all the tracking and the and the

0:20:28security in the creepiness those are all convenient justifications for them just

0:20:33like when ppl Pirates deficit well it wasn't available in my country at or

0:20:36wasn't available without DRM in the form I wanted on the box I wanna play it on

0:20:40whatever people can read all sorts of reasons for piracy while also knowing

0:20:45yet also kinda not right and so a desk at our son but a blocking when it when I

0:20:50quit was like I could rationalize a whole bunch of reasons why this needs to

0:20:54exist and why I might even wants to run by which I do it I still run gostaria my

0:20:59computer and I still run I'm switching between various blockers on the phone

0:21:04trying to find a good one and only one blogger you know people people were

0:21:09actually his reasons but to be the person making it an enabling this and

0:21:14making money from it even if it puts on a different level and there's always

0:21:18going to be a tension between you know trying to make it seems

0:21:22morally acceptable but also the reality of what the market really wants is to

0:21:29get everything for free and not see any ads ever and no matter what they say if

0:21:33they if they say it's all about something else it's all about tracking

0:21:35whenever some people are honest about that most are most people just want to

0:21:40block all the ads I disagree I really do disagree I think there's definitely some

0:21:43subset of people who really do want to block that really do you know sort of

0:21:49the ones that there's even a magazine called for like an anti advertising

0:21:56magazine reports no no no used to sell it at Whole Foods but they don't pay

0:22:02more but it's it'll come to me for like you guys have people who are opposed to

0:22:11advertising in general not just online advertising but who actually are

0:22:15Crusaders about you know that that advertising is a perverse force on on

0:22:22our society in 1902 before effect cases there are some cases where it is you

0:22:27know you know the cigarette companies and the address you know the way that

0:22:32they've been legislation has been passed that you really can't advertise anymore

0:22:38and that when they used to be able to they really did you could prove it that

0:22:42they they they targeted their ads to children

0:22:48famously the joe camel cartoon mascot for camel cigarettes was different polls

0:22:58are they would go in and you know talk to kindergarteners and they're amazing

0:23:02amazing brand awareness in kindergarten age kids of the mascot for a cigarette

0:23:07company that's really sick and it was an accident it was actually play it so

0:23:11there's an example there are people who kind of feel that way about all that

0:23:16and and maybe it's not even the messaging there's others who are clearly

0:23:20online who really care about every single byte of data every bite somebody

0:23:27pointed out to me for example and and daring fireball in the deck the deck ads

0:23:32are so small compared to online ad you know in general but because during

0:23:38fireball has almost no images oftentimes has no images other than like the logo

0:23:43on the homepage the deck actually comprises a significant portion of the

0:23:50average page view especially if you don't even look at the whole home page

0:23:53where there is a whole big wall attacks but if you just go to like an individual

0:23:57short entry significant portion maybe even a majority portion of the bites

0:24:03that get downloaded on the page you go to the at

0:24:06I think looking at that as a percentage is kind of unfair just because of the

0:24:10design of don't fireball but if you really want to look at it that way

0:24:13ok fine I say go ahead block yet you know but I don't have a lot of people

0:24:17feel that way I think people think that opening people's eyes with this with the

0:24:23with content blocking are the Foreman's numbers that people are see ya I think

0:24:28when I see people whose eyes have been opened by like some of the stuff like

0:24:31that then Brooks has been publishing when he's you know doing the yeoman's

0:24:35work of testing all these things and the New York Times published it in today

0:24:40where they they tested a bunch of sites without blockers and when you see that

0:24:44you can save thirty seconds on a mobile page you when you go to boston.com by

0:24:49having an ad blocker and only has about blocking ads its I just want I want that

0:24:53speed increase

0:24:54yeah and that's that's certainly a major part of it that is a major justification

0:25:00and a major motivator especially in Moberly on desktop it was it was easier

0:25:05to get wasteful and kind of ignore it but I mobile it matters more mobile also

0:25:09screen space matters more to add that would come in and take over a massive

0:25:12chunk of the screen or do these stupid overlays or break when you zoomed in so

0:25:17many bad things out there but it's a major motivator but I think it comes

0:25:23down to like if you ask people would you rather see this thing with ads or with

0:25:30ads they would choose no ads every time you know some exceptions like you know

0:25:34like certain magazines like the ads are kind of the point but for the most part

0:25:38most content I think people if people are given the option to take it with no

0:25:42ads they would take that option

0:25:44assume the cost was equal in both free and so what you have in the AM

0:25:48businesses this kind of tension is this kind of balanced tension will usually

0:25:53it's balanced where the people really want the stuff for free and they don't

0:25:58want to pay that they don't want to pay for it and i also dont wanna see ads and

0:26:02the publishers as you know they obviously can't operate for free so they

0:26:06say alright well look kind of reach this equilibrium like okay well we're gonna

0:26:10show ads and most of your going to tolerate them and you're going to

0:26:15tolerate it because you don't want to pay us and it's kind of okay and for the

0:26:18most part both sides that usually it this it's this at this relationship of

0:26:24tolerating you not actually wanting the ads are enjoying the ads you know most

0:26:30people if given the choice again they would they would say well I don't have

0:26:34to see the ads that don't show them to me or don't waste my time with them so

0:26:38it's always this kind of tension and in in the in the grand scheme of things I

0:26:42think people do like free content better than they like payroll stuff so

0:26:47ultimately I think I think this is a necessary evil like it's and obviously

0:26:53this is usually no but it is a necessary compromise of of how how content is

0:26:58viewed and paid for and everything and you know i i run the deck out of my

0:27:02sight I run outta my podcast just like you do on here and that's those are both

0:27:07choices where it's like you know I also you know I I would love to do an ad free

0:27:12podcast for people just paid us but that would make a lot less money and a lot

0:27:18less people and you know if you put up a wall up in front of a podcast that is

0:27:22just death like nobody listens so it's it's really it's it's never a great

0:27:29relationship it's never perfect you know it's never really what all sides want

0:27:34but if this compromise at all sides have reached most of the time and anything

0:27:38you do throw that out of balance

0:27:40like making the ads are really obnoxious or really creepy early over-reaching are

0:27:45really slow have other major problems there's gonna be pushed back from that

0:27:49but the basic the basic notion of you i'ma show you had your going to tolerate

0:27:55them it's there it's a little bit uncomfortable even from the start you

0:28:00know and it's I've always I've always kind of felt mildly irritated by the

0:28:05fact that I make my living on ads because I don't like ads you know but I

0:28:12think this is the best solution we have given all the variables I think that's

0:28:16where the comparisons piracy works as I've always seen piracy as a negotiation

0:28:22it is you know somebody that if they're pirating and a poor game there did you

0:28:32know that makes the game is saying there's a new game for your PC its $40

0:28:38and the person who Pirates instead of paying for the same note $0 and it's

0:28:44some point and I know that you know with piracy there are absolute . die hard and

0:28:49there are people you know did I i when I was in college I pirated all sorts of

0:28:53stuff and it wasn't wasn't like if Adobe head a have the price of photoshop I was

0:29:00gonna pay for it instead of pirating it I realize that but you know for some

0:29:05things at some point and i think that that was the key to the iTunes Music

0:29:10Store making online music success is that they they were saying here's a

0:29:17better deal we will have all the music you'll get your album art and all have

0:29:21good metadata right there you'll you'll be sure of the quality and it's a fair

0:29:26price $0.99 and did it stop music piracy no definitely not but it definitely

0:29:31turns some people who might have otherwise or previously been using

0:29:35Napster or you know whatever the you know the stuff that came after Napster

0:29:39was to instead to say you know what I'll just buy it from iTunes it's a

0:29:42negotiation i think what you see and it's the same thing with a lot of piracy

0:29:47and you see it with entertainment industry

0:29:49the way they approach movies and stuff like that and and music and games

0:29:54software and I think it's very true with the advertising industry is that the

0:29:59industry the publishers and advertisers for the entertainment companies they

0:30:03don't see it as a negotiation they see this as a problem that could be solved

0:30:07so that they can do whatever they want and they are the people will just take

0:30:13weekend we can show you whenever online ad we want and you'll just suck it up at

0:30:19that and that there's some you know I'm sure that there's a whole bunch of

0:30:23people who are if they're looking at Wow our mobile numbers are down this month

0:30:28you know the Silas content blocking thing is totally real you can't see it

0:30:32here you know five six seven percent down you know over where we were before

0:30:38this came out you know that there's people wrote right now who's there who

0:30:43are thinking or who are demanding of their engineering teams find a way

0:30:47around this

0:30:48not not like how do we you know how do we start selling ads that people don't

0:30:52want to block its how do we defeat the content partners and you know I think

0:30:58that's the right attitude that's not that's not gonna win exactly so only on

0:31:09the other side when they make new kinds of ads then the ad blocker people are

0:31:14gonna say well now we need to block this new kind of like the neither side is

0:31:18willing to agree to the other side's terms here like the the advertiser is

0:31:22not going to say well I guess we better stop publishing ads because nobody likes

0:31:26ads and the ad blockers are gonna say well you know what that ad is fine we're

0:31:32going to win because if they do the user revolt and they go to something else so

0:31:38I don't know what the ultimate solution is but it's absolutely some form of

0:31:42having a basic respect for the user and for your product and I've been saying

0:31:48the following four years as well as to me as somebody who's always been sort of

0:31:54obsessed by publishing

0:31:55and advertising and graphic design branding and things like this whether

0:32:00it's you know print TV or online

0:32:05it has always been right from the very get-go has always been very clear to me

0:32:08that the traditional companies either from TV or from print when they went

0:32:14online by and large they had very little to no respect for the web they either

0:32:20treated it as like at some point I had to stop treating it as as maybe a fad

0:32:24but clearly at the beginning a lot of thought maybe this is a bad and they

0:32:30never ever treated with the respect that they treat their main products you know

0:32:34they would never put popup that actually covered the actors faces faces on a TV

0:32:41show about you know even when they put they do some substance doorknobs me on

0:32:47TV where they put little things about the bottom of the screen but they don't

0:32:51do something that covers the actual content of the show while the show is

0:32:56playing magazines don't allow advertisers to make add that like he

0:33:02pages are getting worse every year with you now that print is getting desperate

0:33:07date it might be out of desperation but certainly while they were profitable

0:33:11they wouldn't do it they wouldn't make you like let's say a popular paid like

0:33:14the op-ed page in the new york times they weren't going to see all that with

0:33:18some kind of tape so that you have to sit there and spent thirty seconds

0:33:22looking at the whatever logo is on the tape while you carefully cut across it

0:33:26to do it but they've treated online at like that all along time I really do I'm

0:33:36gonna go back and I'm gonna tell you I i feel like i have to explain why I

0:33:41thought you shouldn't have taken peace out of the store and at the time I

0:33:45didn't realize that having read your piece

0:33:48your article explaining it I would have said ok you're right if that's what you

0:33:52feel then just get out I didn't know when you called me I didn't know what

0:33:55you were thinking the problem I think the idea of

0:33:59once it was out and when she saw that there was controversy to be had an

0:34:07argument to be made and that it was going to be a nonstop never never ending

0:34:11slog of what deserves to be blocked and what doesn't

0:34:15the realization that he didn't want to be in this business was you know i think

0:34:20is the recall I didn't know that I also think that this is why you're still

0:34:25getting shit from people I have seen this where there are people who you know

0:34:30lol how could you build contemp locker all summer long and not imagine what it

0:34:38was like to have a contemp locker I can imagine that very easily that you didn't

0:34:43really think about it I thought your explanation

0:34:46here's a cool API I'd like to build one myself I like to build things so I'll

0:34:50build it and they don't think pass exactly that was that was really it's

0:34:55like I said although none ATP it's like all summer long I was focused on how to

0:35:00make a really cool app using the stuff and I i was not focusing on what will

0:35:05actually be like if I make this cool app succeed and become a major person

0:35:11influential in this business and having everyone look at me this way and I

0:35:15didn't think about that you know I should have but I was naive and I i want

0:35:21to do the cool thing where I make the cool app and then you know I didn't you

0:35:26know it didn't matter what the app did I just how I want I had to school app idea

0:35:30and I i tried it and it worked really well and so I I was motivated to keep

0:35:34going with it and it just didn't think about you know what would happen and I

0:35:39mean a lot about this is a lot of the a lot of the frustration and anger that I

0:35:44received over it from other people is really about like you know they they

0:35:49just can't believe that there's that I got to that position and that I give it

0:35:55up for very that's one of the reasons you know one of the other reasons is

0:35:58like how do you walk away from all that money and it's you know it's like 10

0:36:01money isn't everything I felt bad about etcetera

0:36:04and I mean just once I decided to to take it up the store and and I i just

0:36:13when I had it once I decided that I'd like you said you were the dentist it

0:36:17was the the moment I decided I should stop the store is a temp there in the

0:36:22morning it was down by 12:30 it was it was like two hours like all I had to do

0:36:27was I i talked it over with my wife i ran up by you and identify the good

0:36:32people to make sure that I even could do without breaking the contract and and

0:36:36that then that they were going to be mad about it and that was it you know what I

0:36:41want to do the same time like as soon as I even had the idea to do it I felt a

0:36:44million has better like a giant weight off my shoulders and that night when I

0:36:50was working on overcast again for the first time in a couple of weeks

0:36:53felt so good because overcast will probably not make in its entire next

0:37:00year what peace could make in two or three days but so much better about it

0:37:09you know you and I have talked about this that one of the things some people

0:37:12have a very hard time believing that anybody obviously I don't think

0:37:18everybody thinks is wearing a majority but there are clearly some people who

0:37:21cannot get it through their head that pure money is not a primary motivating

0:37:28factor for us it's great I am successful right now and I do appreciate that and

0:37:35it's important to me because I have a family and so it is certainly a

0:37:39significant motivator and it is a very high priority for me but it's not number

0:37:43one and maximizing it getting every single dollar that I can absolutely

0:37:48positively is not a number a motivator for me is professionally is doing good

0:37:54work that I'm proud of

0:37:56and number two is probably like just what I feel like the overall quality of

0:38:00my life and my happy money obviously plays a factor in that but you know

0:38:04making the most money possible definitely doesn't write and I are both

0:38:09fortunate that you and I have made enough money and and make make enough

0:38:13money through other means that like we can say no to things that don't feel

0:38:17right to us and and you know there's there's all these days don't like you

0:38:21know every there there's a threshold for everybody and it's surprisingly low

0:38:25where additional money that you make above that threshold doesn't really make

0:38:30you happier you know so there is this concept of like what is enough and in

0:38:35most cultures that aren't american's that number is way lower even americans

0:38:40have you know this concept of what is enough

0:38:43beyond which it stops really added to your happiness and in a proportional way

0:38:48and I've heard estimates of the number being as low as like $75,000 a year

0:38:52which you know in this offer businesses is a pretty mid-range too low salary so

0:38:57it's pretty for people who are likely to the show it's not that hard to achieve

0:39:02that it is not unheard of in the event that you that you know if you already

0:39:07make a six-figure salary and you know the idea that you could turn away money

0:39:13from something that you that makes you feel terrible that actually there's a

0:39:18lot of like widespread you know surveys and and psychology and up to back that

0:39:24up where it actually is plausible to do an effect people do it frequently think

0:39:29that you know once once you once you've reached a certain level of income you

0:39:33don't just have to say yes to everything and in fact if you do and a lot of

0:39:37people choose poorly on that scale and say yes to everything and are miserable

0:39:42for it and I don't necessarily realize that like you know they don't have to do

0:39:45that there's a lot of people who you know people who do it not just because

0:39:51they're well off enough and they can keep their life so people who downgrade

0:39:54their lifestyle

0:39:55and delighted by it you know somebody who is just killing themselves in a

0:40:00corporate attorney job you know hundred some hours a week doing this my num in

0:40:05work and then they leave and become you know a teacher or something you know you

0:40:12take a job with it has a much shorter commute away closest to your house even

0:40:16if it pays less than the job that all the way in the city

0:40:18your way happier taking the job at a shorter commute and you're you're able

0:40:23to rationally say yes I can turn down the extra money for the job in the city

0:40:26because I will be way happier and probably healthier and probably have a

0:40:30better family life if I if I choose us right at the same kind of thing it all

0:40:34plays out there somebody who leaves six-figure engineering job at Apple or

0:40:40any of the big companies out there and it just opened up their own coffee shop

0:40:45which is an indoor in opening up a restaurant notoriously low margin

0:40:50difficult business to be in but that all they've ever wanted to do is raise their

0:40:54own coffee and make a cool place you know where people can you know if that's

0:41:01what you wanna do i mean there could be so much happier and you're making way

0:41:03less money

0:41:04way less but anyway that's its people don't think I'll give you a concrete

0:41:08example of money that I have passed up and it's I don't think it's a thing it

0:41:12certainly wasn't sustainable in Google's search algorithm got around it but at

0:41:16some point in the late last decade I would have guessed the summer of 2008

0:41:222010 or so it was non-stop Virage every week where I got offers from people to

0:41:32place text ads on their enviable text thing either they wanted on the homepage

0:41:38or it would be some specific page that ranked highly for certain keyword posted

0:41:44I'd written and they would offer thousands of dollars I mean I remember

0:41:49one time it was it was a guy and I actually pursued it now because I

0:41:52thought I would take it but i wanna see something $20,000 for

0:41:56couple of months and it just seemed like such a large amount of money but i just

0:42:01want to see is this is this is because if I don't get the money I'm gonna take

0:42:07the texture down and it's you know it's the Google index it wants

0:42:15I can't be because this is an article like let's say your old article if they

0:42:19think that there's value to be gained by putting a text there now they must know

0:42:23that Google Reader indexes these pages and so therefore they must know that if

0:42:28I'd take the text ad down it'll rien texan they won't have that Google juice

0:42:33you know and I just research the company and it really see my yes this is a

0:42:36company that pays publishers tens of thousands of dollars to place these

0:42:40texts at and then you could do things they don't even care all they cared

0:42:43about was the search engines and you you could do things like use CSS to make it

0:42:48just plain 9446 position at 4000 pixels off-screen whatever you want to didn't

0:42:54care so it wasn't like anybody would know wasn't like anybody would see it

0:42:58but it was thousands of dollars from just nonstop for years and I say no to

0:43:04all of them or or or the other thing I would do is I would write back and they

0:43:08would be like what David they were a lot of them would say what is what would you

0:43:11want how much would you want for me to put a text ad page and I would write

0:43:18$100,000 and then they would say that's too much do you know you're looking at

0:43:24like Alexa numbers or something

0:43:26traffic but before I got to like ridiculous numbers like that i would

0:43:30offer I remember I would write back as a joke and just say like $10,000 they'd be

0:43:35like about seven times that you've got this obscene number that they would

0:43:42laugh at and they're actually I guess it's pretty close actually felt we could

0:43:46do that now these are ads that were in all they wanted was the text all they

0:43:53wanted to do is trick Google and other search indexes there was no major

0:43:57industry for a while I think I think it's finally probably die down as Google

0:44:01that smarter but major interstate was a major industry in the money was truly

0:44:05significant i mean

0:44:07I know what I could have if I'd pursued it but easily tens of thousands a month

0:44:11I read those like I bet the market had like a hundred visitors a month I ran

0:44:16those from a company called text link ads like texting out of hyping it and I

0:44:20was a company name and they might even still be around nine times I don't think

0:44:24I think text link ads word I think that in particular they were they weren't so

0:44:27skinny they they would vary so it was very similar you embedded this PHP thing

0:44:32I remember I even I

0:44:34I was still very new to PHP the time but I even modified the code to add nofollow

0:44:38to the links I think that eventually get me kicked out but because I I was aware

0:44:42of what they were doing and other well you know I'm gonna add nofollow because

0:44:46that's the that's the right thing to do and they didn't have an explicit rule

0:44:49against that I could find at the time I wrote that this wasn't doing any

0:44:54tracking it wasn't going to mean literally just HTML so wasn't even going

0:44:58to have any measurable effect on downloads eyes were talking about not

0:45:03even kilobyte bites actual just extra bytes would if it loaded synchronously

0:45:09what you would have had to do what they want with Google it would block the

0:45:12pageload wallet on your server side I don't even think I think they just

0:45:16wanted me to actually just paste paste this little snippet of HTML the article

0:45:21it wasn't even dynamic a dynamic now I think that there were some services like

0:45:26text link ads were was dynamic as they wanted to get used to feel these offers

0:45:30from people who just wanted to buy a month of you know just put this snippet

0:45:35of HTML and this article for a month and no significant money and I didn't do it

0:45:42I turned it down because just felt gross and it just ended and I didn't need it I

0:45:46do have to admit the whole RSS sponsorship thing at this point was

0:45:50taking off and it was doing well in the deck was you know I was already in the

0:45:54deck so I didn't need it I was already at the point where I could say don't

0:45:57fireball is supporting my family I don't need to pile this on with things I'm not

0:46:01proud of and exactly you know so I didn't

0:46:05but there are you know there's other examples I i feel that offers from

0:46:09people like you know other ad networks

0:46:13effectively I would have adequate the Deccan go to them who offered me way

0:46:17more than the deck you know has ever paid me per month and you know I just

0:46:22said no to all of them because I just dancing around switching ad networks

0:46:28going to the highest bidder and look in their ad obviously they were did just

0:46:31weren't they weren't little nice static ads like the tech they were big and ugly

0:46:36the standard IAB big red yeah I mean the idea of looking like the decades of

0:46:41amazing lock-in because once you once you are accustomed to the way your own

0:46:46site looks with the deck and once your readers are accustomed to a your site

0:46:50look at the DEC

0:46:51just imagine what your site would look like with his with the giant a

0:46:54skyscraper at the sidebar they regularly like a big white like that would look

0:46:59horrendous

0:47:00it wouldn't look like your site at all it would look like if you were like on

0:47:05some crazy why fight it was like injecting ads in a prepared you visit

0:47:09like it would look like a scam or malware had taken over something it

0:47:13would you wouldn't you would never say oh it's very possible its normal like

0:47:16that just goes to show I think like the different worlds that that are possible

0:47:21here in the advertising space like you have you know fully native stuff like

0:47:25urs sponsorships that an hour into doing the podcast you then you have like the

0:47:30very very subtle modeling with the deck does and you have everything else

0:47:37giant horrible things and and i i do think but I certainly that it wasn't

0:47:46like the other ones that would come to me we're offering me it would be 25

0:47:49percent more than the democrats thirty was it like a percentage more it was a

0:47:52factor of three four five times more like five times more than what I was

0:47:56making from the deck was significant money the way I always chalked it up and

0:47:59i na me completely support me on this is that to me the money that I was leaving

0:48:03on the table by not using this ad was effectively in investing in the brand

0:48:09during Bible yeah that's totally right and your site has always had that look

0:48:15so easy even even in the age now where you

0:48:18you might wanna consider Mobile layout and bigger font someday maybe but you

0:48:22know you as always and that definitely does have a definite it definitely does

0:48:28contribute it makes your site look higher class more valuable certainly

0:48:33it's much more pleasant to read as long as you hit the + button a few times on

0:48:36the keyboard it is it is very very much contributes you know if you go to slash

0:48:41perhaps you'll get a little bit actually they used to be multiple press which

0:48:45devices and set to sync iCloud a doubt it but he doesn't know that you know

0:48:53during fireball that / press and you can set the font size and it'll save you

0:49:00know maybe maybe I should get to use some time and make you finally update

0:49:03responsibly keeping you know what the right not to its we can keep on as I

0:49:12wanted but one of the things if I do even when I do I want to change it once

0:49:20I want to change the layout today on fireball wants and then have at last at

0:49:25least another 15 to 20 years no pressure

0:49:29well the last design you know has gone close to change it like 2003 or 2004

0:49:38there was an early days ago for the first year during fireballs a slightly

0:49:41different designs so eleven years ago someone that goes for 15 n may be the

0:49:48only to tweak it like I have this one you know here and there suddenly over

0:49:53the years but you know I want to do it once but to do it once I think it would

0:49:57require web funds and I've progressing in four years on web points because I

0:50:03just can't get over the fact that to me they feel slow and one of the things

0:50:07that I really love about how fast it's one of my favorite things I get from

0:50:11people from emails or tweets or something like that every once in a

0:50:14during fire but does go down or if there's like DNS outage on the net which

0:50:24makes really weird things and it's like some people like people say hey is

0:50:28durable down and I check and it's definitely not down it's right there

0:50:31really fast but I keep I get like three or four of these it's usually like a DNS

0:50:35problem and people who are somewhere on some chunk of the internet can't get

0:50:39there and when people say the following me always makes my day they say during

0:50:44fire bodies in just one of my favorite site it's also the thing I always go to

0:50:47what I want to check my internet connection yet but they expect that it's

0:50:52always up and expected to load against him and websites definitely changed so

0:50:58I've put off you know and and that's funny because with the country bloggers

0:51:02a lot of them have an option to block web funds specifically just just to make

0:51:06things faster not because anybody is really opposed to nobody's supposed to

0:51:10good-looking font and nobody's opposed to nice design but people some people

0:51:16favor faster page loads over you know I mean I was I was doing that in the early

0:51:26built a piece that was like one of the very first things I built was i dont

0:51:29wanna bought all third-party JavaScript which was insane but worked and and I

0:51:34and it had an option to block all of us and it broke my site a lot of other

0:51:39sites but it was complex faster it was a massive speed difference and so now like

0:51:45as much as I love the this wonderful J ideal Sans font that I use on my site

0:51:51and you know as far as I know like I see a couple of benchmarks here in there

0:51:55that suggests that the FDA web fonts are not as fast as type it but either way

0:52:00neither none of them are what I would call fast enough you know if they're

0:52:04you're still loading a few hundred kilobytes of funds for most people that

0:52:09you know and it's from some other CDN that is off off host so it's like making

0:52:13other connection everything and another opportunity for weird latency or DNS

0:52:17issues and the fact is web fonts are really nice they're they're very much

0:52:23like a nice to her

0:52:24have but if they're gonna come at a big cost they're probably not worth it for

0:52:29most sites and what I found when I like it when I would have been browsing with

0:52:33with weapons disabled on my phone for for a while now and even with coaster on

0:52:38the desktop I would I would turn off type get their tractors that they can

0:52:42block a couple months to and you really don't miss much like it's you know you

0:52:48you can tell on certain sites were like they didn't have a good fallback so the

0:52:52default by Times New Roman you can you can tell us what it's supposed to look

0:52:56like times but for the most part things load really fast and nothing looks that

0:53:03bad and many times it looks pretty good at fall back to something sensible so

0:53:07you know i i would say it if if I realize I'm eyesight anytime soon I

0:53:14would almost certainly go back to a regular system fun and not use that just

0:53:19isn't worth it and that being said in in defense of your ancient site design I

0:53:25will say that that a couple months ago I I decided to to be a smart ass and to

0:53:30try to try to like just write like 10 lines of CSS or whatever that I could

0:53:38just like text you and have you inject you in your template here's your freakin

0:53:42responsive layout here like here just modernize your site with this little

0:53:45thing I get wrote in an hour so that was my plan is gonna do this and I try I

0:53:49started and your site a surprisingly complex I I tried doing that and I

0:53:55realized it was going to be way more work then than what I had planned for

0:53:59this is a common theme with me way more work and as I can now understand why you

0:54:06haven't done this

0:54:07yeah that's a pretty well I mean it's been so long that I don't know but you

0:54:12probably started at like 10 times yeah thats bring back stories there but it

0:54:18will happen sooner or later but yeah there's no way to just take the current

0:54:21HTML and easily do it i mean you can make a new one that looks that a wide

0:54:26screen looks the same but the way that everything is structured right now is

0:54:30actually sort of

0:54:31fight against responsible but the worst thing that ever happened was the fact

0:54:39that with a very little a very short amount of think it's just like that one

0:54:44viewport meta tag and the fact that a double tap on the main text column is

0:54:51pretty good and has been since the original iPhone in 2007 I mean like two

0:54:56lines of code in 2007 made it easy did the double tap on the center column of

0:55:00text inhabit reasonably good size and a pretty good with its not nice and fixed

0:55:05used you can still slide around sideways when you scroll but it's actually pretty

0:55:11good for you know run on mobile optimized layout and that's probably the

0:55:16worst thing that ever happened because if it had been terrible on iPhone I

0:55:20would have done something in 2007 or 2008 yeah I mean and that's i mean your

0:55:26site works the way every site work in

0:55:29this was the problem that I created Instapaper to solve like it one of the

0:55:33problems is like I didn't want to keep zooming in on everyone's pages and then

0:55:36like I would say girls girls girls I was reading actually get misaligned a little

0:55:40bit so I decide and let me try to realign back to the center column never

0:55:44quite get it right happens all the time you know just pretend to believe that

0:55:48and I i talked to people about a year ago at this like I think if I was

0:55:56designing Instapaper from scratch today is designing a thing that would solve

0:56:01this problem from scratch today I don't think I would do the TextView I think I

0:56:06would just save it was there on the page like the fully because responsive design

0:56:11and modern sensible design on most of the house but I want to read and

0:56:17especially now with content blockers existing if there is a way to look into

0:56:19that Hannah system responsive design really solved the problem pretty well

0:56:25most of the time like these like back in 2007 2008 when I was designing

0:56:29Instapaper at first the TextView was necessary because no sites had mobile

0:56:34layouts responsive design didn't even exist yet they get the respect wasn't

0:56:39even there the media queries I don't think even existed back either supported

0:56:43so that you could

0:56:44do responsive as high back then but that has really removed a lot of the need for

0:56:50things like Instapaper text you and safaris read review prior to the iPhone

0:56:55the only thing that has ever been done in web standards for mobile work

0:56:59completely different sites wow I guess was the big 10 WA p.m. you know what it

0:57:05stood for but it was so that the devices pre iPhone were so primitive

0:57:10computationally displays are so small that it wasn't even feasible nobody even

0:57:15really considered how would we make a dynamic layout that you could just have

0:57:20one URL one web page and it would look this way on the big monitor this way on

0:57:25a smaller monitor in this way on it on a tiny little nobody even thought about

0:57:30that and that's why we still have sites today they have like mobile .

0:57:34URLs in the diary direct well and Dan that's a little different diseases like

0:57:39type site but still there but anyway let me take a break here I got to thank our

0:57:44first point is a good one so so don't skip ahead this is gonna be a good good

0:57:50read it's the broader group B R A W you are now they sponsor during fire before

0:57:57I think they actually sure to it was a great success so they're back to

0:58:04announce the guys behind an app called is America called you bar just like at

0:58:09lower case you be a are you bar three and implement a ton of suggestions from

0:58:16he even says specifically from listeners of the talk show readers during fireball

0:58:20it's a dark replacement for the Mac the purpose of bars to vastly increase your

0:58:25productivity Pro users love it but it's also you know it's not just like a pro

0:58:30on the tool you can definitely see how a normal person in your family would

0:58:34totally get into this sort of sort of model more on the Windows taskbar so if

0:58:42you are anybody in your family as switching windows and sort of doesn't

0:58:46like the ways that the Mac OS 10 dog isn't like the Windows taskbar you bar

0:58:52is exactly the sort of thing you should look at

0:58:54it looks good it's not a very very cool looking very beautiful to puro as 10

0:58:59style design and it's got for power users tons of shortcuts you can do

0:59:04things like hold down CTRL and you can see the CPU and RAM usage for any of the

0:59:09apps that are in there that are running will downshift and you can quit any app

0:59:13or close any window from that app just by clicking absolute unresponsive get a

0:59:19red background so you can spot hanging out immediately you don't have to go and

0:59:23launch so it's sort of like it's it's adding features from activity monitor

0:59:27right there in the in the taskbar tons and tons of custom customization you can

0:59:34set the size there's different themes dark and why exactly what you would

0:59:38think you get the idea when you listen to the you know the idea of the state

0:59:43that you know there's a lot of customization you can put on any side of

0:59:47any monitor including the top you can pin it to a corner just unbelievable

0:59:52stuff so here we go to you by our apt dot com and have a four-week trial you

0:59:58can download it start running again for weeks and cost is only 20 bucks so this

1:00:05is a great utility typical utility price 20 bucks but I think they're actually

1:00:10crazy cuz I think 20 bucks is a great price but here's the deal this is my

1:00:14idea but they have a coat red grouper are a ti na than my last name

1:00:20retina grouper I don't know if that's a reference to read the graphics are my

1:00:23problems are both but either way it could go either way

1:00:2750% off so you can get it for just 10 bucks so you get four weeks it right and

1:00:32it's 10 bucks to get and this is the part that one more thing the developer

1:00:39the app his last name is our quick seems like a shame I I don't know

1:00:49he has happened so Edward Edward bra or so they're at and driver development

1:00:55that's his primary that's how he supports himself that he's a programmer

1:00:58but here's the most amazing happy his hobby is watch meeting he makes real

1:01:05mechanical watches so he's actually watching a new timepiece radio show

1:01:11called The Mirage is a limited edition of only three hundred pieces each with

1:01:16an engraving number on the back he has sent one to me to really really nice

1:01:23take my number is one number I got 10 for something like that really nice

1:01:31style beautiful typography I mean it's like a real serious watch I think price

1:01:38750 bucks so we're talking about this is a joke it looks like us $150 watch it is

1:01:47really really amazing very very nice it has totally serious strap it made by

1:01:53company I'm never gonna pronounces right camille for name in Paris it's a

1:01:59blizzard like alligator leather strap they make OEM straps first actual

1:02:05serious watch companies like Patek Philippe and others it has a single

1:02:11deployment clasp single full deployment clasp that only means something if

1:02:15you're lucky person but if you are a white person you know what I mean really

1:02:19really nice it is I get serious dress watch but not addressing that you can

1:02:23wear it casually so go to for the white girl brower PRA wer timepieces dot com

1:02:33and the same code works there

1:02:36retina grouper and you can get that watch for 40% off so similar $50 watch

1:02:44but you can get a 40 percent off using that code shipping is free in the USA

1:02:48and Canada and it comes in a real watch box again if you've ever bought illegal

1:02:54can see why Charlie even like this

1:02:57edition watches you know that like $2000 watches most common an icebox fisticuffs

1:03:02in a really nice box

1:03:04the thing that I can't believe it's not that I can't believe somebody made a

1:03:07nice watches lots nice watches out there I just can't believe that this guy

1:03:10designed in made it and did all this stuff in machining to actually machine

1:03:19out the stainless steel frame the lodge and everything as like his hobby it's

1:03:23absolutely crazy that makes this amazing you borrow my thanks to to them for the

1:03:31bar which is probably something an awful lot of you ought to go look at it maybe

1:03:35by and for the new Mirage watch which probably isn't going to solve a lot of

1:03:41you but for those of you are into watches it absolutely positively worth

1:03:45looking at all so it's not too big I don't know what I would say if it has a

1:03:49diameter of only 40 millimetres so it's perfectly standard not too big to watch

1:03:55a woman could get away with it like a nice big watch for a woman told enormous

1:04:01size comes in three colors white blue and black so my thanks to check them out

1:04:05that the craziest part of the craziest fights over that's pretty impressive

1:04:11also I want to give you all my French words to pronounce never any of that I

1:04:17have no idea but perhaps even a tard alright here's the thing I want to tell

1:04:22you why I think you were here is the mistake I think you made with peace and

1:04:28I feel guilty about this because I knew over the summer that you were working on

1:04:32this thing and I i i didnt tested until late the night before something like

1:04:36that and I feel bad that I didn't cause I would have I would have called you out

1:04:40on the fact that it wasn't

1:04:42whitelisting the Dacron emphatically and in fact I was confused because I could

1:04:47swear that the night before when I didn't stop the better I did the first

1:04:50thing I did was check during fireball I could swear that it did show the ad and

1:04:54then you told me that there's some flaking is when you first enable these

1:04:57things after I think that's what I saw I don't put words in my mouth but here's

1:05:05what I think you rethink

1:05:06you were thinking I'm not I don't care don't want to have a bunch of Philly

1:05:12setting so I don't want to have its own thing that says block block all ad block

1:05:18most dads block half ads just block the worst ads and they're going to say here

1:05:23there's a switch block at and I think you were thinking I would be a hypocrite

1:05:28if I wait listed the DAC just because that's what my site as in so I'll do the

1:05:36thing that not being a hypocrite and just include the deck which is mine

1:05:40which is sort of I i think that by not whitelisting the deck you are committing

1:05:53an entirely different form of hypocrisy which is that all everything is content

1:06:03and everything that you publish from archive.org is your your your standing

1:06:12behind so by publishing ads from the deck by sending them to users your

1:06:16implicitly saying this is an ad that's worth you're seeing and it's worth your

1:06:23device that you're accessing the site downloading and rendering and putting on

1:06:27the page so I feel like you you painted yourself into by by releasing peace with

1:06:33the deck not be included you have two things you've got a website that is

1:06:37implicitly saying this is a thing this ad is worth you seen and is OK and then

1:06:44you have this other thing which is saying this is something that should be

1:06:47brought and there's no way to square that yeah that's true I mean that's that

1:06:54was part of the problem is that this was this was an unsolvable problem you know

1:07:00it was I can I could say that I no longer want any web ads to exist I can I

1:07:05could leave the deck the deck and from a site I could I could try to distinguish

1:07:14I could try to differentiate I could say well I'm not allow acceptable ads

1:07:19we see the problem that causes when other sites try their other bloggers try

1:07:24that we see that that's extremely messy and controversial and and I that's you

1:07:30know I don't want to be in that business and you know or I can I can try to

1:07:35differentiate between well I'm going to block ads but not trackers and repeats

1:07:41you like it you can't really make that differentiation because if you want to

1:07:46block tracking you have to block almost all ads so it you know and and trying to

1:07:53trying to keep up the list of what belongs on the other side of that almost

1:07:58is is very politically charged it is very subjective it's very messy and

1:08:05arguable and vague as to what you know what kind of atoms ok what kind of a

1:08:11decision is not a tracker what is what it what is tracking include in it it's

1:08:16it's it's such a messy world of vague distinctions and impossible problems and

1:08:24whatever decision you make people are going to disagree with it and so

1:08:28actually the safest most defensible position that a blocker can take is to

1:08:35his body everything like the head that is the most defensible position that I

1:08:39think that most of them can take and they just have to own what they actually

1:08:43are and is this is the part I had a problem with like you can't just say I'm

1:08:47gonna block trackers an ominous serve only good you have to hit some people in

1:08:53in a process of being effective likes some people have to lose and some of

1:08:58them are gonna be good people like the decking and we know all these people

1:09:02these are good people but if you're saying I'm selling an ad blocker it has

1:09:06to block the deck and and it's weird and if you if you sell an ad blocker and you

1:09:12know about the deck and you know the decades ads and you whitelist it or you

1:09:17you explicitly like goin omitted from your database that once it was already

1:09:21there and you're selling people a blocker then you're lying to your

1:09:26customers

1:09:27that's why I don't think you should call it an ad blocker I think and I but if

1:09:30you don't call it a blocker nobody buys it

1:09:32at the problem you know it's it's a terrible business I think that I don't

1:09:37know that no one would buy it I mean what to do how did you what did the

1:09:42marketing materials for peace

1:09:43described it as it said peace block ads and trackers power by guest blog web ads

1:09:51and records I would have said something to the effective while I wouldn't use

1:09:56the word crappy but block crappy ads and trackers and think of you know put that

1:10:01it off the top of my head I can't think of the way I would say that but that

1:10:06would be the gist of what I would get a cross inverted very few words block

1:10:09crappy ads and trackers and then that led to you

1:10:12whitelist and and there are like one of the most popular ones right now and then

1:10:17one if anybody wants recommendation right now the 1 I'm using is one blogger

1:10:20and by the by default one blogger does not block the deck exchanged some emails

1:10:28with Ben Brooks is doing a lot of work at Brooks reportedly really serious

1:10:33yeoman's work especially if he's you know he's like restarting his iPhone in

1:10:37between testing these things just the store to get it to his neutral estate

1:10:40and clear the judge was good as you said like the system is buggy

1:10:43energy it's really hard to know for sure with something simple and sometimes the

1:10:48system like I had to make a test URL that like on pieces website at Estoril

1:10:54that would load and would try to redirect to something that piece blocked

1:10:58and then would detect whether the redirect succeeded or not a notice and

1:11:01so like I had his butt in the Abu just test installation and it would like a

1:11:05WebView for 2nd Ave and tell you what happened but in a very buggy it's a very

1:11:12buggy system would i'm looking for in an ad blocker or content blocker on call

1:11:19Fri wes is I want one that is fast and noticeably improves the browsing

1:11:24experience you know I made iPhone

1:11:27blocks as much like pernicious stuff like the type of ad that like cover-up

1:11:35pop up in full-page blocked the page on looking at block stuff like that doesn't

1:11:43block the debt by the fall and that's it and nobody agrees on where that line is

1:11:52I agree I agree and that's you know obviously there's gotta be so one of the

1:11:56other way to look at it is no no ad blockers going to be perfect absolutely

1:12:00not detained and even if it you could say right now at this moment as I

1:12:04submitted to the App Store I think it's close to perfect as I can get it in

1:12:07terms of what it blocks and what it doesn't by next week that's going to be

1:12:11different because some of the people you block are going to find workarounds some

1:12:16of the ones you don't might clean up their policies it's it's fully dynamic

1:12:19but what I would but I would suggest and when I really think is possible and what

1:12:24I think for example one blogger right now is evidence of is that what you have

1:12:29to do is pick which side of perfection you're going to be on are you gonna be

1:12:33as your blocker going to be on the side of letting through some stuff that

1:12:37probably should be blocked or is it gonna be on the side of erring on the

1:12:42side of blocking some stuff that shouldn't be blocked and I think it's

1:12:45possible I think it's possible to build an ad blocker or content blog or

1:12:50whatever you wanna call it that isn't over aggressive and so therefore erred

1:12:56on the side of maybe there will be some things they get through that that you

1:12:59wish to get through but that overall gives you a really fast browsing

1:13:03experience in blocks most of the stuff you want and doesn't punish people who

1:13:07are doing it the right way and are serving things that shouldn't be bought

1:13:11I think that possible in one blogger is is the best proof of it today that they

1:13:17could be done but the fact is that was amazing to me is that in Ben Brooks

1:13:23testing and he's I think he's up to like 32 these I was content blockers that

1:13:27he's tracked in his testing one blogger isn't just fast it's the fastest and I

1:13:33know where peace was taken peace out of that but

1:13:36the only one that faster is it was roughly in the middle when he still had

1:13:40it in the only one that faster is some crazy one that i think is sort of like

1:13:44the one you wrote this summer that just blocks third-party JavaScript there's

1:13:48one that makes that that is head and shoulders faster than anything but it

1:13:53breaks have the internet like he he I forget the name of it it's got a funny

1:13:58name to put it there's a whole bunch of like mainstream states that just render

1:14:02is always a white box no I actually I had that issue with with my first my

1:14:10first version of of peace before negotiate the deal with the grocery it

1:14:14literally just bought all third-party JavaScript and the finding is how well

1:14:18that works most of the time it's it's called scripts crap that's a wonderfully

1:14:24awkward names like it that approach actually works

1:14:29the vast majority of the time but it's it's one of those things were like if

1:14:33the error rate

1:14:34like it if the pages it breaks it breaks on 10% of pages well that's actually

1:14:38very annoying and practice like that that's too high of a break a tree and

1:14:43the reason I won't go story instead was because it was the solution I found that

1:14:48had that had the lowest rate of sites that broke like things that actually

1:14:53just stopped working because like a lot of sites will tie in weird ways to like

1:14:58this especially analytics packages and especially Adobe Omniture that is one

1:15:02like Apple site breaks with without that a bunch of sites like that like

1:15:06functionality actually stops if you don't have certain trackers enabling go

1:15:10story actually keeps a database of that and and built it into their to their

1:15:14extension to try to like white list later took to try to whitelist things

1:15:20like that that are fairly innocent on certain sites that are required from to

1:15:26work properly and the bad they maintain a list of sites that break with you know

1:15:30for example amateur disabled and that's all I forget what it was

1:15:35couldn't as a part of Apple's developer website that I couldn't get working as

1:15:40going on

1:15:42and it just occurred to me it was like wait list this industry and I did it

1:15:48the site I never thought that I would have to stick around and go story it was

1:15:51apple.com it's literally has no add you know unless you consider the entire

1:15:56website and it has no ads are you think of this web but it actually breaks with

1:16:02that I think it was exactly that and that's why I don't even think of

1:16:09analytics think but you know one of the one of the problems that one of the

1:16:12reasons why we have such obscenely rampant and over the top tracking on the

1:16:17web is this piss culture of data people nearly everything it is considered

1:16:22outrageous and obscene and and reckless if you run a website today that doesn't

1:16:29do very detailed analytics and behavioral tracking like if you if you

1:16:33have access to quote data and you're not collecting it or not

1:16:38mining it and analyzing it for eyeballs and various other body parts like it is

1:16:42it like that if you're considered like negligent almost in an owner of a

1:16:46website not doing all this tracking like that the standard industry wisdom and

1:16:50the pressure from everywhere in the industry is to track as much as you

1:16:54possibly can and and this is going to be here if you want one of the issues with

1:17:00this that that is still mostly under the radar is tracking happening inside of

1:17:06apps that can't be blocked by Safaricom ten-block yeah I would definitely like

1:17:11Twitter is famous for like always pushing the boundaries of like like they

1:17:15they they had this database of like something like over a thousand URL

1:17:20schemes custom iOS app URL schemes that they that they would call can OpenURL

1:17:25on the system API and that would tell them which of these URL scheme to

1:17:29register them they could then derive which apps to each user have installed

1:17:34and they can tailor their ads and they could sell their head they could they

1:17:37could actually sell people the idea of we can show your Twitter at two people

1:17:41who have this particular app installed and then and that that was so egregious

1:17:47of a privacy violation that Apple civilians research about 90 S nine and

1:17:51they actually kinda broke it for

1:17:53uses like that

1:17:55so in other words just to explain why I know David I'm just for anybody who

1:18:00would if that went over your head so the wave sandbox in works by Wes an app that

1:18:07plays by the rules and uses tipped passes the test that they do the united

1:18:11in private API's can't really look outside it

1:18:14sandbox and look at the file system and see what's in your iPhone's /

1:18:21Applications folder

1:18:23can't do it but what triggered it and I'm sure other people did between her I

1:18:28guess really walk far is when I got caught when a custom app like Instapaper

1:18:33hasn't Instapaper colon slash slash URL scheme and then you know the idea of the

1:18:39URL scheme is a that way another app can integrate with Instapaper this is really

1:18:45really common in pre shearing sheep days where you know apps would only will

1:18:49really way that Apple could communicate with each other

1:18:52want you know Instapaper communicating with weed pot or something like that was

1:18:56true but URL scheme so if if tweet but was going to integrate with Instapaper

1:19:02used to get you you know is that how we buy used to integrate with Instapaper as

1:19:09far as I remember yet almost all the all their clients and eventually and but

1:19:14through a custom URL scheme but then to make a nice user experience there was an

1:19:18API so Twitter Tweet pot or whatever app you know Twitterrific whoever would call

1:19:23if I send an instant paper colon slash slash URL is it going to be handled yes

1:19:30or no and then if the answer is no I go with anyone having to pay per install

1:19:33they won't even given the option so Twitter you survey any of a thousand

1:19:39apps are installed on the system and used it and then they of course no your

1:19:43Twitter account your login to Twitter using Twitter and he would transmit that

1:19:47data back to Twitter and would save it probably forever in your account in

1:19:51their ad analytics databases like it all this creepy stuff that made possible by

1:19:55this relatively innocent intending system maybe I yeah so that but this

1:19:59sort of a tangent but it absolutely gets to something that is a false accusation

1:20:04against me which is that

1:20:06in in my defense of the problem that some people seem to have with my take on

1:20:14this is that I'm not an absolutist that I don't feel like I feel like there's

1:20:22some people who want to say that if you're going to block some magic have to

1:20:25block them all and if you're going to whitelist some had you have to see them

1:20:29and I i does I think that bullshit I think it's probably bullshit because

1:20:35people are just what I'm suggesting which is traded you know used weightless

1:20:41and default for your ad blocker that strike a middle ground and again who

1:20:46defines a middle ground and whether different people have significantly

1:20:50different taste on where that line is drawn absolutely and who knows how

1:20:53sketchy but I absolutely think that someone who wants to take the absolutist

1:20:58all or nothing approach is is being stubbornly idealistic I don't know what

1:21:05the word is but it's an inner fooling themselves but the false accusation

1:21:12against me is that I'm somehow because I'm in the bag for Apple Pro Apple I'm

1:21:17on board without destroying the open Internet and taking us to a world where

1:21:23there's nothing but apps from the App Store and that falls for a couple of his

1:21:28number one my life's work is on a website and I don't have an app for it

1:21:32there is no during possible and I still have no plans to make one my side is in

1:21:39Apple news I haven't done anything related to it I really don't even

1:21:43understand how this works I might I might do something with their stuff I

1:21:49haven't really looked area I would be I would not be in favor of most people

1:21:57reading my side door openers in favor of that

1:22:01and lastly I don't think I i'm just as suspicious and concerned about the

1:22:06tracking what's going on in native apps as a break his native apps like the web

1:22:13the web can do a lot more egregious things they can do a lot more cross-site

1:22:17tracking tracking between different sites by third parties the Web makes a

1:22:22lot more that possible

1:22:23apps you're you're mostly mean depending on what they've been greater but you're

1:22:27mostly in apps limited to the maker of the app track new themselves and again

1:22:35there are there are some exceptions but third-party packages but for the most

1:22:38part that's going on and so you do have to worry about things like like like the

1:22:43big big social apps which again when you're talking about if you want to

1:22:48block tracking you got a block social and although social religious there that

1:22:52are in on all the sites you to block the fancy Richard prickly formatted Twitter

1:22:57in beds that people in bed a blog post you would probably also have to block

1:23:00embedded YouTube players because that's owned by Google a massive ad tracking

1:23:05company you know there's a lot you have to block if you want to block if you

1:23:08want to truly block tracking

1:23:10take a look at YouTube's a good example because it's so ubiquitous that it's

1:23:16central to the modern web landscape but if you ever just do a view source on a

1:23:21page with a YouTube in bed and just start going down the rabbit hole of the

1:23:26iframe and and what's going on there i mean it's almost impossible to follow

1:23:30along but you can see that it is nothing even vaguely resembling a video tag with

1:23:37the source pointing to the URL exactly it is you know I'll bed like a single

1:23:45YouTube in bed would probably involve more mark-up let alone JavaScript just

1:23:49more mark-up than the entirety of like a typical daring fireball page exactly

1:23:54yeah but but you know what app tracking you know your your they can do more

1:24:01detailed tracking of you but in a narrower scope like you're not usually

1:24:06like if you open up a random random applique you know there's there's a new

1:24:12game from the crossroad people

1:24:14guys or something today and I doubt that and knowing like you know what's the

1:24:19most you can really do here like i know i Oso sandbox and everything they're not

1:24:23be able to get all my other data they're not gonna be able to have a unique

1:24:26identifier tied to me that they can use in you know fifty other apps that are

1:24:31even published by then and you know some of the third party thing to do at the

1:24:34crossroad people have a new app called she's guys I haven't lost yet and I was

1:24:41gonna play it tonight

1:24:44planning late in the second half of the talk show up later on your advert ya

1:24:50know I always pay attention it never get them so is it nice do you like to enjoy

1:24:59not having to do them as you do mine ATP

1:25:02this is a great like it's great to show up to a podcast just talk and not have

1:25:07to worry about like I gotta get sponsors ready to make sure I have a script for

1:25:11all them and if i dont gotta write a review and everything is there ever been

1:25:15any discussion about when Casey do some

1:25:18talked about it assumed yeah he's so much nicer than me John you should do it

1:25:25but John does the toaster ovens which is the greatest single greatest ad campaign

1:25:31in my opinion in podcast history is going this week is that there's a

1:25:36toaster week this week it's a good one it is a really good one

1:25:41its cards against humanity he's campaign ad for any VI I'm guessing is enormous

1:25:47number of the people listening to this episode listen to ATP as well but for

1:25:51those of you who don't on accident tech podcast there is a year-long maybe over

1:25:57a year long it this whole counter it's it's almost over from cards against

1:26:03humanity and the entirety of the ad campaign there is absolutely no talking

1:26:07points about the game itself

1:26:10they just send chance if accuse the toaster oven ever every time an ad is

1:26:16coming up once a month 12 month they send him a toaster oven any and I'll air

1:26:24the entire roll the ad is for John to use review at a new toaster oven every

1:26:30month talk about the dials talk about how well it works for you know what

1:26:35egregious design mistakes that they've made turns out there's a lot of really

1:26:40badly designed toaster ovens out there he takes it totally serious as of course

1:26:47it does it's a fantastic but it must be nice I enjoy when I'm done it is quite

1:26:54nice even though I do enjoy enjoy doing these reeds though I've gotten I think

1:26:57I've gotten better at it and I enjoy it because I've gotten to the point now

1:27:00where I feel like it's a game or I'm trying to keep people from hitting the

1:27:0532nd skip really and if you do if you know you know it is what it is and you

1:27:11know it finding it was a tad blocking right i mean the ties into it

1:27:17similar it's it's like that it's not quite the same but very similar it's

1:27:21it's a niche in the ballpark for her I actually saw somebody on Twitter in in

1:27:26at at peak peace controversy think that's so funny that I think it was such

1:27:31a good name for a blocker think it's so funny that the way that it played out

1:27:37was so peaceful for you but I saw somebody who who tweeted something to

1:27:48the effect of its actually pretty clear idea that somebody who rides a podcast

1:27:53client did you know any given episode of a show if you tracked people's use of 30

1:28:01seconds kept you could probably very easily pinpoint where the sponsor breaks

1:28:08are new episodes right and and you know this is like I thought this feature two

1:28:13years ago I think everybody who has made a podcast app has taught us feature

1:28:17especially ones Amazon launched their shared highlights for Kindles

1:28:22is very similar to that you know it's like you can attract highlight and then

1:28:26things get however a lot you can say is important and you can default to hit

1:28:30them where you could in a podcast app yeah you could track what's being scared

1:28:33and sections are pockets are skipped a lot you can have an option to

1:28:36automatically just skip them and first of all you know it would be hard to make

1:28:42that work very well in a way that would annoy people and that would be obvious

1:28:46what's happening but second of all I think like I've talked to other podcast

1:28:52app makers and mentioned this before and everyone else is the same thing I

1:28:56thought which is I don't want to do that to podcasting because I know like that

1:29:03would be weird by nature hurt podcasting and I don't want to do that I you know

1:29:09and I i feel like i I thought the other thing is that it's it's so respectful

1:29:15you know it's just time you know and it's you know I have gone before the

1:29:21summer episodes just because I've fallen way behind a weekly schedule but very

1:29:26long and so I absolutely ice to stick to never more than one and a half hour

1:29:31which I feel like it's pretty fair and compares extremely favorably to

1:29:36terrestrial radio oh my god and not even close and even compares I think very

1:29:43well too

1:29:44the Howard Stern Show on serious like amy amy is a huge howard stern fan and

1:29:51she still annoyed by the fact that the whole thing that hit structure is in the

1:29:56first place

1:29:56commercial free and then Iraq

1:29:56commercial free and then Iraq

1:30:00as we can tell the whole lot of very expensive and I don't know why I think

1:30:05in history own airfare expensive I bought them before

1:30:08well but from their perspective in the aggregate there I'm not saying it is but

1:30:13I think that I don't think that they could do and on the day could only get

1:30:17paid salary if it wasn't for that I don't know I disagree you think you can

1:30:24go you think I paid less for a live read on his show then what you and I charge

1:30:29for live radar shows right now so many serious and amazing you got you got

1:30:36Howard actually read it

1:30:38yeah yeah it's still alive read that's why it's valuable was really great it

1:30:43was a really cool thing but anyway I just feel like that again its

1:30:48negotiation and I'm sure there are people out there listening right now who

1:30:52even though I told them not to get the thirty second thing during the Broward

1:30:56thing before and they're probably gonna hit on some of the ones that I'm about

1:30:59to do and that's ok I mean you know but my job but I feel like I've gotten

1:31:04better enough doing this and i feel like im still attracting interesting enough

1:31:08group of sponsors that it's a fun game for me when I do to try to keno you know

1:31:15I am i doing I'm imagining a listener with his dumb hovering over the thirty

1:31:21seconds kept trying to keep pressing or at least only avenue president yeah

1:31:26there's some value in it like for example I will I'll break right into one

1:31:31right now and here's one that I bet somebody but a fair number of people

1:31:35with 30 seconds kept because they are here almost every single week at our

1:31:39friends at fracture fracture of the people who bring your photos unless they

1:31:48sponsor the show all the time and the reason I keep coming back is cos you

1:31:53guys out there keep buying pictures from them so you're probably familiar with

1:31:59really high-quality printing the print on the back of the glass you send them a

1:32:02photo of a pin on the back of the class it's right there on the glass not like a

1:32:05piece of paper stuck to it is not a frame paper behind glass right there on

1:32:10the class really really nice the best way to get actual analog versions of

1:32:15your photos that I've ever seen because there's no work involved just upload the

1:32:19photo and then it comes back to you and it's all nice and ready to go

1:32:22they do have that she have a special message that they want me to get across

1:32:27it's only October 1st is a record clearly a big part of fractures market

1:32:33is gifts people buying photos for gifts and obviously the holiday season is

1:32:39coming up

1:32:40October 1st does not sound like it's close to the holidays nobody's I don't

1:32:43think holiday decorations seem to go up earlier and earlier in retail

1:32:48usually people this way to holding a pumpkin spice season right now

1:32:52yeah exactly gotta wait till pumpkin spice goes away but fracture want me to

1:32:58remind you that they do get backed up at the holidays and so this might be a good

1:33:05way to does knock out a couple of your Christmas gifts a really really early

1:33:09and not worry about cutting it close in getting caught behind because that by

1:33:13the end of December they actually can't keep up and you can't do it

1:33:16last-minute get in time for Christmas because they're so so busy so think

1:33:22about it think about the people who might want to give a fracture image 24

1:33:27the holidays and get it over with now just do it and you'll feel better you'll

1:33:31know you have you know someone in your office boxes packed up you've already

1:33:35got some your Christmas gifts knocked out ready to go

1:33:38really is a good gift we do it every year i I can't even imagine until

1:33:42fracture isn't even around anymore I can imagine it up

1:33:45holiday seasons gonna go by we don't get some of these for some of the people in

1:33:48our family really really great stuff

1:33:51where do you go to find out more their website is fracture me.com and their URL

1:34:01code is daring fireball and if you've never ordered from them before use that

1:34:07code daring fireball and you will save 15% off your listeners first order and

1:34:14if you listen to the show if you like a Markov and you could use the code ATP

1:34:17and you'll stay the same amount and you give the the Mojo 22 the accident

1:34:23tech podcast 8314 8315

1:34:29change used to be a TV right or did they think I think in 2015 I think it became

1:34:34me to be there any way you could even water that you know their responses

1:34:37before 2015 have been long-term sponsors anyway it's all good they're a great

1:34:42company with a truly truly great product and you know if you've ever wondered why

1:34:47in the world do they keep sponsoring these podcasts I swear it's because

1:34:50people keep buying the fractures from them so keep it up and it really really

1:34:54can't say enough about the gift couple weeks ago about to another one they make

1:34:58great gifts yeah you get you do get concerned most of the people in your

1:35:02family probably don't listen to podcast just like mine said they have no idea

1:35:06and when they see them they really is like a hole like wow how did the world

1:35:10did you make this and you know you could tell it fractured meed.com and I i have

1:35:17severe gift-giving anxiety every year and to have it to have an easy solution

1:35:23that's kinda like a go to think I don't know what to get someone in my family I

1:35:27can get them a cute picture of you know my grandparents or my kid or something

1:35:31you know that works out well I don't know why I'm always envious of your ad

1:35:37reads UN hello internet I think do the best live read like her as bass turds

1:35:41those cases they aren't a frustratingly good that actually cuz it again i said i

1:35:47do I don't like I listen to yours because I want to see how you do it you

1:35:51know it you know like okay at Squarespace again what you gonna do you

1:35:57know it's a chance

1:35:58it is cuz I die I want to keep it fresh for people who aren't skipping I don't

1:36:03want to say the same thing every time the Hello energized god they're really

1:36:08good at it like it's frustrating enough that their podcast so good in general

1:36:11but that they also just kill it on the ad reads and that they require like I've

1:36:16always wanted to try recording the ads separately from the show and dropping

1:36:20them in afterwards because I don't like doing it during the show because it it

1:36:25makes me pay attention to something else during the show rather than what my

1:36:29co-stars talking about and like I always have my mind right now I'm going to be

1:36:35loaded up on screen maybe read a couple times first like and i'm having to do

1:36:38all that as Casey or John are talking about something that and so I'm not

1:36:42listening to them i'm looking at an ad and so they feel it makes the show worse

1:36:45but I i dont know I haven't figured out how to do it well yet maybe I'll have to

1:36:50try it sometime

1:36:51i've i've been given serious thought the exact same thing and I might play with

1:36:55it they feel like it's a sort of thing I can say I can play with and it's not

1:36:58irrevocable you know yeah but I feel like you do need some kind of sound

1:37:02effects are intended that I don't have one of those ready and it's one of the

1:37:05things I haven't done it yet if you just try to drop it in you sound different

1:37:09and everyone notices like it is very obvious like this is recorded at a

1:37:13different time your voice is more or less tired rasputin it was like in the

1:37:18surrounding parts of the show you can hear maybe the rooms and a little bit

1:37:21different maybe it's a little bit more echo -e are you reading the Michael a

1:37:24bit further away or a different Mike two weeks ago or something like you can

1:37:28always tell when it's recorded at different times have you ever noticed me

1:37:32I've done that a few times have you ever noticed yeah every time I do it every

1:37:36time I listen to podcast I'm terrible headphones and I noticed every time but

1:37:41that's just me I'm a nerd but yes if I switch to that when when I have done

1:37:45it's because something has changed either I've made a terrible mistake or

1:37:50somebody else has made a mistake and

1:37:52or or I didn't get it in time you know that there was some kind of

1:37:56communication problems like crap I told you I don't have it I just fill it in

1:38:02later and you know when I've done in the past I've tried to fake it as best we

1:38:06can to do it and if it doesn't come out perfectly so what if I were to switch

1:38:10switch to something where it's obvious and it's you know there's a little you

1:38:13know sound effect yes I really do think you would like one of the reasons like I

1:38:21i've i've always been interested in the idea of trying an ad-free show but ATP

1:38:26is so big now and it's not just me that I like you know i'm i'm willing to

1:38:31gamble with large amounts of money

1:38:33of potential future income but I can't make that decision for two other people

1:38:37alone you know this and so I don't wanna rock the boat there but one of the

1:38:42reasons I was motivated to even consider rocking the boat there is because I

1:38:45don't like doing the ads online because I'm afraid of the attention it's taking

1:38:50away of my attention is taking away from the conversation and I think that makes

1:38:56it worse I should try that I gotta figure what sounds to book and it wasn't

1:38:59just try it and i also like I i heavily edit the ad reads because see this is

1:39:05why this is why you frustrate me because I try to catch my ad reads 23 minutes

1:39:11and ideally it's you know it's it's at least one and a half and it's at most

1:39:15three minutes and I and if I almost always end up running way over that are

1:39:20usually are usually do on the live show I usually do a four-minute had read and

1:39:24then in the Edit I added it down to fit three and I still feel like I'm not

1:39:29saying everything I wanted to say in the read meanwhile you come in here and you

1:39:33talk at like one mile an hour during your ad reads can you manage to say

1:39:37everything you need to say and they're not longer than three minutes usually

1:39:41they're not that much longer or shorter than mine so you managed to somehow say

1:39:46way more with way fewer words in the same a time and your sound more relaxed

1:39:51and more natural and mine sounds kind of stressed out some training criminal in

1:39:55three minutes at how we write I guess maybe minor bruise

1:39:59first they were really bad I didn't get e-mails complaining about it I got

1:40:03emails very sympathetic emails 703 doing a show without damn Benjamin

1:40:13Marco really angered the internet the people who were angry weren't refused to

1:40:19listen so they weren't listening and sending me hate me about how bad the

1:40:23show was they weren't even listening and they were just get a listener's I got

1:40:28some but I think most of them didn't really didn't get a lot of that they

1:40:33just went right items terrible one-star reviews and they were done by people who

1:40:38listen where people who were in still enjoying it and they were very

1:40:41sympathetic but it was sorta like this sort of email I think that you get when

1:40:46you know you come down it was exactly like the email I got when I talked about

1:40:50the stuff that's happened with my eye and you get these really nice emails

1:40:53from people saying how sorry they are really sorry about the way you're doing

1:40:59these ad reads it's terrible whose I got you know like I had an affliction

1:41:06you picked up pretty quickly I mean I like yet those first few were definitely

1:41:09rough I think by like this episode you were pretty much in a group

1:41:13well there's anything I did wrong and I'm not a big fan of I can read that

1:41:17like the guys know whatever his name is just taken over the Daily Show like he

1:41:21did like a whole week or so of test shows shows that are never gonna care

1:41:25but real shows they do shows I understand why it is hosting a TV show

1:41:29that as tight as the Daily Show really does have two beers but you can't

1:41:34rehearse the whole episode because every day it's that day's news so you have to

1:41:37get good at it but if there's anything that I should have rehearsed and thrown

1:41:41away I should have done

1:41:42sponsor reads instead of doing that I should have did record you know not four

1:41:45episodes they should have recorded some and in force myself to listen to them

1:41:50and do it it didn't take too long ago it took a couple weeks before I got at

1:41:55least ok and I guess I could have just skipped the point where I was really

1:41:59terrible

1:42:00that was that was part of the learning process you know you wouldn't have

1:42:04learned it necessarily anyway the thing that really got me was the last episode

1:42:09hello internet when Brady did fracture one and it was that he'd sent a picture

1:42:15to CGP grey Center fracture to them to him of what was it that you make him

1:42:23wrapped one of the two animals that he's been obsessed with Lady know the hand

1:42:27there and the other is the official birthday hello internet right but said

1:42:32it had sent him a picture that related to an entire huge segment of the show

1:42:38that it already been gone so is just had this beautiful serendipity in and really

1:42:43made it feel like it was part of the show again like I said I had our content

1:42:49part of the country serving as its not something separate and hella winner at

1:42:54the way they do it it really does feel like part of the show they they have a

1:43:03bit they mention their numbers in the last half they have WAY bigger listener

1:43:08basis than we do to it with good reason to their show is awesome and it's like

1:43:12people can enjoy that show without being huge tech nerds like our shows you

1:43:17pretty much have to be a huge Apple nerds are to really get much out of our

1:43:19shows but their show is way more accessible and it really like they they

1:43:24joke about long time in a discussion about the two dudes talking podcast

1:43:28format which is very calm and especially attitudes talking loosely about tech

1:43:33matters but I think what makes their show so grade is that yes there are a

1:43:38lot of two dudes talking shows but they really perfected that format like it

1:43:43like to have these to specific people talking about whatever they talk about

1:43:48like they have amazing host chemistry between the two of them and they're both

1:43:52amazing characters like there if they're incredibly amusing to listen to any

1:43:56playoff each other well and it's very nicely edit it so you have this

1:44:00combination of just like no wonder it's so popular is they're really good at it

1:44:04and its early combination begin with they also both have good voices yeah you

1:44:09really can't help

1:44:10and you know what you gonna do but well that's one thing that I love about

1:44:14podcasting though I can be frustrating for like half listeners who want to talk

1:44:19about whatever happens happen this week but one thing I love about podcasting

1:44:23like when I was a kid I used to I think a lot of people did this especially were

1:44:28nerds like me I used to record fake radio shows with my friends who

1:44:33basically like us talking into a cassette recorder as if we're on the

1:44:37radio and never listening back to it or listening back once and then I'll be

1:44:41like I we make these fakery like I always wanted to be a radio deejay and

1:44:46the reality is a that is a terrible business of being an actual radio deejay

1:44:54is horrible so that's problem number one problem number two is I was never going

1:45:00to be a teacher I don't have the right voice I don't speak well enough I

1:45:04certainly don't have the background of the opportunity to become a deejay for

1:45:08the training like a training like I was never one to be DJIA I just I don't have

1:45:14the voice for it I don't have the skills for a time does not cut out for that job

1:45:18in the same I'm not going to be like a football player like I'm just such as I

1:45:22don't have I'm not the person for that I i'm not i'm not made for that but with

1:45:27podcasting it's it's really quite a meritocracy in that like one of the

1:45:32views of this medium is that you don't need to attract the wide audience that

1:45:35you know TV and radio people do normally like the locality issues and everything

1:45:40with this with podcasting even people who talk sloppily and have mediocre

1:45:46voices like me can do my job is podcasting I i talked on a version of

1:45:54the radio for a living and the the idea that like I'm fulfilled his childhood

1:45:59dream this to have always wanted to do that I really am not qualified to do but

1:46:04it just happens to work out better in this medium like that is amazing to me

1:46:08and as a listener podcasts as a massive listener podcasts I I love listening to

1:46:14other shows that are also made by amateurs like me that are just talking

1:46:19about interesting stuff and I know

1:46:22although but the big lake public radio podcast I don't listen to almost any of

1:46:26them because there's so much else going on that I wanna listen to I don't have

1:46:31time for them is there so much else is made by amateurs and people like me that

1:46:36much more interested in that's much more narrowly focused then like here's a

1:46:40story i'ma tell you about something that happened you know if i dont i dont need

1:46:43that I have my all my time is filled up with people talking about more narrow

1:46:49interest that I like better later but it does make me jealous when I hear the

1:46:57professionals hello Internet yeah it is it is frustrating when people are really

1:47:03good podcasters who also have really good voices and production and speak

1:47:06with their such there too said interesting characters as well and

1:47:11exactly a very honest I don't think that they've made up personas into just being

1:47:15themselves but they're very very nice very nice fellows absolutely yeah and

1:47:21like you know like gray is obviously the straight guy you know he's you know he's

1:47:29the more logical and doesn't come up with ideas then but then he's kinda

1:47:33crazy tick like this always comes up where he lives

1:47:38standby ticket and will wait weeks and weeks and weeks knowing when he's gonna

1:47:43fly which is crazy that's why that's so is so great because like you have used

1:47:49these great interesting people who end and like the fact that Brady can I tease

1:47:55it out of him and then hit him over the head with a constantly they they're able

1:47:59to put your buttons extremely well as well like it is it is so good show so

1:48:05anybody who hasn't listened to it but there there will be only use it there

1:48:10well beyond are the size of our audiences which had been talked about

1:48:13for an hour

1:48:14deservedly so the funny thing was that they didn't think to they've done a

1:48:17thing which is which actually think you bring it up because I was going to bring

1:48:22it up so anybody out there do they they did a thing where they solicited for the

1:48:26listeners of their show to write to them

1:48:30tell them if they listen to the show while doing interesting things like what

1:48:35is the context you know something beyond just you know I listen to the show on a

1:48:39drive to work you know and there's people who are like there's a good guy

1:48:43is like a surgeon he does like surgery on like mice brains because he's

1:48:48studying the effects of some kind of scientists and they put the Meister

1:48:52estonian and he'd perform surgery on her brain disease there fact so while he's

1:48:56doing as he lists one of the things he doesn't listen to podcasts to listen to

1:48:59the show that's an interesting thing and they had they had a guy who who manned

1:49:10the the latter caught the steps that like Air Force One Air Force One land he

1:49:17he's the guy who liked puts the latter up there with the president comes to

1:49:21their car right yeah the steric are listened to their show while he does you

1:49:27know and and then they even like said like just to make sure that the trouble

1:49:30he's very very clear he does this like in the you know like you have to stand

1:49:34here and wait for four hours for the hundred and uniting he's not listening

1:49:38while the president might be coming down the steps he's you know he's paying

1:49:42attention and doing his job but it's obviously get a job with a lot of

1:49:47waiting involved because they know the president shows up when the president

1:49:50shows up the president isn't running out the clock what an interesting job though

1:49:55and i think that that guy is alleviating the tedium of the waiting part of his

1:50:01job or while he's off duty or whatever by listening to the show so anybody I

1:50:05would I would be interested to know the same thing if there are interesting

1:50:09context where people listen to the talk show so you can just email read some of

1:50:15them in a future episode I don't know anything about my audience like you said

1:50:23like that idea you got it you have to hook up the data and collect all the

1:50:27analytics for everything I i dont wanna know I I do like knowing what popular I

1:50:32like to try to try to look at the stats just to see if an article is unusually

1:50:38popular

1:50:38ur and I i like to see in striking know it's you know I like to see referral

1:50:48tracking and see if I'm getting an unusual amount of traffic from some

1:50:51other popular place for cider tweet you know but in terms of like knowing things

1:50:58about the audience i know i dont wanna know that like even even like the

1:51:04checking of the mint and everything like back when I wrote that the my previous

1:51:10controversy

1:51:11the Apple fucking high ground thing after that went crazy I realized that I

1:51:19like there was a day like I I just turned off

1:51:22analytics for the site during a just kinda like I don't want to be motivated

1:51:26by this anymore and it's kind of like if you if you forgot a vacation and and you

1:51:31start checking Twitter for a while and then you have such a massive pileup that

1:51:34you can't keep up with you guessed it scroll to top and you realize like oh I

1:51:38didn't read Twitter for like three or four days and I missed nothing of

1:51:41importance of eye-opening well I had a similar kind of thing with with

1:51:47analytics on my website where I ran first meant for a while and Google

1:51:52Analytics for a while and and

1:51:55and eventually I realized when I turned it off for a little while after the in

1:51:59the wake of all that drama as I just like I wants me some peace and quiet I

1:52:04turned it off for a while and I realized I didn't miss it at all and and part of

1:52:10that is a luxury that we have that you know we don't need to really know our

1:52:14day-to-day pageviews the deck bills in advance for PC is basically and so we

1:52:20are paid a flat rate by the deck based on the general amount of traffic that we

1:52:25tend to have gotten over the last 20 years or whatever like my race for the

1:52:29deck hasn't changed in years and because my traffic as you know about the same

1:52:34and it isn't if I write something that gets all of a sudden a million page

1:52:39views out of the blue I'm not going to see a dime for that Tech has pre-sold

1:52:43the the ads for that and so they aren't seeing a dime for it and that's just so

1:52:47I so we have no incentive to like temporarily juice pageviews or right

1:52:53things are going to get temporary traffic really and and so the only

1:52:58reason I would really need to run a web analytics of any kind is what you'd like

1:53:03for me to know ago where's traffic coming from and where you know what what

1:53:09do I write that gets meaningful numbers compared to anything else i right and

1:53:13what I realized was that that information was not beneficial to my

1:53:17life or my work it it was all it was doing was like being another vanity

1:53:22metric second the reality is twitter is a vanity metric now anyway and I should

1:53:26stop checking that as well but I still do like I will check the number of

1:53:30retweets that like whenever a blog post about it also saw check with number of

1:53:35retweets that God and I have some ideas like oh well this one got to this one

1:53:40got forty so obviously that resonated with more people but the actual web

1:53:45advertiser web tracking that level for everything I've decided that's no longer

1:53:49thing that that I need to care about and so i dont wanna yeah I like to know some

1:53:54of the user agent stuff and I can get this out of my server logs it's just

1:54:00that and that's one thing I've been talking about getting rid of Google

1:54:04Analytics I'm going to get seriously just a matter of days they just do it

1:54:11tomorrow and mainly because I think that it's private invasive and I i actually

1:54:18think that it's wrong of me to to be using Google and they have a very opaque

1:54:24privacy policy that as i've read it and I've done this over the years I've been

1:54:29using Google Analytics for years and there was a whole year to period where I

1:54:32stopped using it and I missed some data like what percentage of my users are

1:54:38using which browser and what percentage of them are on iOS vs Mac OS vs other

1:54:44operating systems and there's ways to get that without using analytics but

1:54:47Google just hooking up Google Analytics was the easiest way to do it and then I

1:54:52felt bad because a lot of my long-term stats were entirely out of whack because

1:54:56I had this fourteen-month period right shut it off but I've read their private

1:55:02the privacy issue is the main thing that makes me want to shut it off

1:55:05above and beyond anything else is that I can't shake the suspicion that Google is

1:55:09using the cookies this set for Google to track the people who read during

1:55:14fireball across the web and using it for advertising even I don't use any Google

1:55:19advertising and if you read their privacy policy attempt to me at least to

1:55:23me it's a reading of foreign language and it's the way that I'm I'm amazed and

1:55:27impressed by attorneys who who write the contracts that run the whole world

1:55:34because I think I'm a good reader I've always tested high terms of reading

1:55:38comprehension I read most most contracts and I might as well be written in the

1:55:43form I don't understand anything I don't understand what is going on in Google's

1:55:48privacy policy for analytics is to me that type of privacy policy

1:55:52I understand what each of the words mean in in the aggregate I have no idea what

1:55:57it means and I've come to the conclusion that if you don't understand what our

1:56:01privacy policy means you should do your worst assumptions are probably right

1:56:05any know you're right that he'll buy by having Google Analytics on your site you

1:56:13are selling your visitors data to Google without their knowledge

1:56:18land it's one of the things like it's kind of uncomfortable like you know like

1:56:21a lot of things and and web publishing and advertising if you actually face it

1:56:26if you actually think about all the ramifications of that and you face the

1:56:29truth of that you face the reality of that it is uncomfortable and it and you

1:56:33have to you know you have to wait as decision of do I keep using this for the

1:56:37utility that provides or do I take a principled stand and and and accept the

1:56:43cost of that so Google Analytics gives you information like how many people are

1:56:48in what country and even like within the USA what state like how many you know

1:56:51and and unsurprisingly by side is largely us' lot of people in the UK lot

1:56:57of people in Germany Germany's always been the third country but you're

1:57:00already down at a very low percentage and everybody else is spread around the

1:57:04world and then within the U S 200 people in the northeast coast most of them in

1:57:09california and most of them in California largely centered in the

1:57:13northern part of California you know exactly who you think I don't need

1:57:18Google Analytics to tell me that though and I find it weird and I just wonder

1:57:21how the hell did they know that and I know there's ways to go back from IP

1:57:25addresses and stuff like that but I just can't help but worry that part of it is

1:57:30that if you're logged in to Google from Gmail and then you go over to a separate

1:57:34a vineyard fireball that they're they're saying all we know Marco lives in New

1:57:38York because we know everything about Marco and we've already got a cookie on

1:57:43this system that's right there that does this right and it doesn't take much to

1:57:48uniquely identify somebody between sites on the web like you can just play

1:57:53analyzing some very basic stuff about the request and even if they block

1:57:57almost every kind of add you know if if they come to your site a couple times

1:58:00and if they know you couldn't you can just kind of match even if their IP

1:58:04change you can just match like somebody's approximate zip code by using

1:58:07IP lookup and match that with like the request headers at their browser send

1:58:14which include at the browsers version but the exact version the OS exact

1:58:18and stuff like that maybe something like if it has certain plugins than the

1:58:21plug-in version looks like Pfizer Java like oh those are all in the in the in

1:58:25the header of requests so if you just take a couple of those things

1:58:30couple of data points you could you need to identify people surprisingly quickly

1:58:34like with only two or three different points of that kind of set so you really

1:58:39is is very much like if you give him an extra ticket foot like you have to be

1:58:44very careful what you allow on your site if you want to actually be productive

1:58:49people's privacy and you have to be aware as a visitor that you know you

1:58:53might think you're that you have more privacy but in reality you are

1:58:57inadvertently leaking data all over the place to everybody who's willing to

1:59:01capture it and it's and you might not care most people don't think about it

1:59:06and they they might not care if you told them but especially young people tend

1:59:10not to care but certainly if your privacy minded you have to be incredibly

1:59:16wary of what you like it because you know they can they can do so much for so

1:59:20little if you go if you're logged in to Google Analytics I'd I was here and you

1:59:27go to the bottom I don't maybe they have a separate one but when you go and

1:59:31Privacy Policy it just takes you to Google's main privacy policy which is

1:59:35for you know everything that Google does so it's just I don't even know if that's

1:59:44what they mean you know like what I want to know is a publisher is what are my

1:59:49readers being exposed to hear what's being tracked about them in it it

1:59:53doesn't seem like there's any good way to get that answer or if there is I I'll

1:59:57be damned if I can find it and to me that's just so I don't know why I really

2:00:02gotta get rid of it I'm sure there's other ways I can do it and there's just

2:00:07the system I'm thinking about installing is called pipi work by Wikipedia i Wik

2:00:12yes that's a pretty common yeah I'm not quite sure what information is in but

2:00:16that just a quick whatever it's called

2:00:20is that its like men and that it's locally stored and so I would be running

2:00:24it my own copy of it on my server storing my copy of the stats in my SQL

2:00:30database and it's there are no cookies that are shared across other sites or

2:00:35anything like that would track you all it is is knowledge of what people coming

2:00:39to my site do so there'd be nothing privacy invasive about it at all other

2:00:44than the fact that you are a person who is reading my site which you know

2:00:48obviously do know some of the stats though that I don't know what that is

2:00:54but some of the stuff like that is interesting and I will miss but I don't

2:00:57miss it enough to keep using Google Analytics is like the number of people

2:01:00using which browser and how many people use which operating system stuff like

2:01:04that in some of that you can get to the user agent but a lot of it you you use

2:01:08JavaScript to get things like like you know whether it has a screen or not but

2:01:11I think so much that stuff is just becoming so irrelevant

2:01:15like what what would you actually do with information you know most of it is

2:01:19not that important

2:01:21well any other factors that I don't like I truly do believe I gotta say it over

2:01:25and over again if there's a theme of this episode it's everything you publish

2:01:28on your site is content and counts and so I don't want JavaScript executing

2:01:33that setting getting the bounds of the screen at a waste of CPU time you know

2:01:37and you know i i get all Syracuse here but I'm sure it doesn't take very long

2:01:41for a little bit of javascript is just figure out what the current screen size

2:01:46is and send it back but every little thing you do that test like that adds up

2:01:51to something and all of a sudden you've got you know five seconds of load time

2:01:57for tractors and analytics you know each little step of it is you know a tenth of

2:02:03a second exactly so anyway might as well take a break right here and talk about

2:02:15our next sponsor it is as a new sponsor first time sponsor the show they're

2:02:20called just works

2:02:21jus T W O R K S

2:02:25running payroll filing W two's negotiating health care prices already

2:02:32asleep the sounds terrible these are all the things that if you're a small

2:02:35business owner that you could be doing instead of listening to the talk show

2:02:41sounds like a lot of fun right

2:02:44well you couldn't just let just works

2:02:47take care of that stuff for you just works helps businesses take care of all

2:02:53that type of basic crap benefits payroll age are now that is crap that it doesn't

2:02:58matter I think most of your employees think payroll this very important but

2:03:02the bookkeeping aspects of it actually doing the work of making Iran and making

2:03:06all the books out up and making sure everybody gets paid with this was a pain

2:03:09busy work right you're not in a bad you're not in the business of payroll

2:03:14you're in the business of whatever your businesses so check them out their

2:03:17website is just works

2:03:19dot com they help businesses take care of the stuff they they do it all for you

2:03:25running a successful business is hard enough doing the actual business of

2:03:29whatever your businesses whatever it is making apps making websites selling

2:03:34coffee whatever it could be but all those little details of a charge Tehran

2:03:40stuff like that can make it feel overwhelming probably the sort of thing

2:03:44that keeps a lot of people from even starting a small business in the first

2:03:46place because you just think will help make you know I can't afford to hire

2:03:50somebody did it just works it's just easy and intuitive software very very

2:03:55affordable great prices it's not like you're hiring somebody to do this for

2:03:59you you're paying a little internet service to do it and take care of it so

2:04:05if you run a business and you have payroll benefits compliant with a jar

2:04:11stuff like that

2:04:12go check them out at just works dot com take it all off your shoulders relax

2:04:18listen to our podcast and you can use this code very easy there's a nice coat

2:04:23TTS the talk-show three-letter code when you sign up you'll save 10% off your

2:04:29first year of service just works dot com

2:04:32so if you run a business go check them out you're just wasting your time if you

2:04:36don't answer for the show but there's a lot of people who run companies have to

2:04:43do stuff like that for a little while and I use one of the other big services

2:04:48to do it and they have to file the state workers comp stuff and I had to I was

2:04:54threatened by New York State to have to pay $15,000 a day until it was resolved

2:04:59and I want to go sit down and only pay a few thousand bucks but then you wanna

2:05:05company that does that right and I can tell you the big guys don't always so I

2:05:09would definitely give just one shot really good I would if I say anything I

2:05:15it's always worth reevaluating anytime anything that is a pain in your ass you

2:05:20should look and see if there's a way that you can pay someone to do it for

2:05:25yeah that's a really good rule in general and it's it is it the vast part

2:05:32of the Internet era of modern society is that an entirely new realm of things can

2:05:40be automated that just wasn't feasible before right like you know you know it's

2:05:48just silly example but like those buttons that Amazon gives out now that I

2:05:53go around a detergent you can just hit a button in and have detergents at your

2:05:57house but there's no way that can happen before the internet there's no way

2:06:02before the internet that you could just as easily set up a thing that would do

2:06:07the payroll in a jar for your company like it just wasn't feasible how how

2:06:11would you interact with them you need the internet and website you need some

2:06:14way of interacting with them you know like the sears catalog existed so you

2:06:18could order stuff to get shipped to your house before the internet but you can't

2:06:23have a print-based interaction with the company that handling your age are you

2:06:29know I think you have to use a fax machine India Ltd player you know I

2:06:35think right now I might be a good thing to keep track of is how long I've gone

2:06:40without being asked to either send or receive a fax and I don't think I think

2:06:46if I had been doing that you know this many days since an accident at the plant

2:06:50I think that right now

2:06:52knock on wood I might be in the longest stretch of not having been asked to do a

2:06:58fax in my life i buy a house you serious oh yeah that's gonna biggest tragedy

2:07:05since I'm saying that I am pretty sure they still i mean these days you can

2:07:11usually somebody who asked you to fax something you can usually say can i scan

2:07:16it and email to you instead and usually they will say yes but but not always the

2:07:23percentage of time you can do that is going up thank God but I don't have a

2:07:28working scanner and now I do I shouldn't say don't have a working scanner I gotta

2:07:33doxie but I i dont you get a chance I don't i dont have I don't know where it

2:07:41is and he mentioned this before Amy recently gave me a wonderful gift she

2:07:46cleaned up my office my office is a mess I mean it's a serious Andy Rooney

2:07:52situation but I do have it's not a system I'm an amendment saying it's a

2:07:56good idea but I generally you know if I go a long time

2:08:00idea of in which pile on which shelf something is she claimed it all up and

2:08:07and you know it's all organizing stuff but I don't know where that is so

2:08:11usually when I have to scan something I don't I don't know where an actual

2:08:15scanners tried to take a picture with my phones like a samosa can i scan it and

2:08:22email it and they'll say yes and I'll just take a picture with my phone and

2:08:26crap out the table

2:08:29send them there and they've never once heard anything

2:08:32and they're also there are lots of apps that will do a fancier job of that late

2:08:36though use the cellular phone camera but they'll be able to like detect where the

2:08:39page is in the lady skew it so it's properly lined up and everything I know

2:08:45smile makes when I think it's PDF scan + yeah yeah yeah they make one is there's

2:08:50a bunch of them out so bad I have their pretty sure I I also never use it is I

2:08:54have I have a ScanSnap which is awesome but a lot of people use those apps on

2:08:59the phone and they're finding it you know for your skin volume is very low

2:09:03that is extremely low very very loans can buy anything else why say about

2:09:11peace though I'm glad it's over I mean it really does seem like it's over now i

2:09:19get i i really am still getting like the the various Lake inquiries from media

2:09:27people earlier this is going to address me earlier any chance you can join us

2:09:35for a webinar on ad blockers for the ad industry this coming Tuesday I can DMU

2:09:41more details I can't imagine a tweet that it was less well crafted to get my

2:09:50response than that yeah I like media requests from people who want me to go

2:10:00speak at their webinars to the ad industry about ads but for the most part

2:10:04of the also died down and it is I'm just so relieved and so now I'm back to work

2:10:10on overcast which is so much better

2:10:13it's probably not going to make anywhere near the right of the money that piece

2:10:17did but I don't care because it I would say I'm so much happier working on it

2:10:21it's no contest I I thought that you really it seemed on your show and this

2:10:28wasn't even talking to you but it just seemed listening to ATP that it really

2:10:31hit you hard personally like the thing that seemed to me the most upset you

2:10:38was the idea that this thing that you built in two weeks I mean maybe on our

2:10:45summer but I really really low level of effort

2:10:50relative to everything else was going to significantly outgrows the app that

2:10:59you've been working on for years and thinking about for even longer and that

2:11:06you want to keep working on for years to come

2:11:08and that that seemed to really get to you yeah I mean you know it is really it

2:11:13is impossible to to understate how little code there isn't peace like

2:11:20people who has a bunch of angry responses were on the lines of the only

2:11:26responsible thing for you to do is to open sources who abandoned it and first

2:11:31of all I can't because it has good story to tell you I don't have the rights to

2:11:34but but the actual application code that is not just the database of sites is so

2:11:41tiny it there's almost no code there because Apple basically made this entire

2:11:46content blocking framework to be really officially designed to create a blockers

2:11:51and so that's why I assume from the beginning I assume that mine wouldn't

2:11:57get significant traction

2:11:58assume there'll be tons of them outright on day one and and there were a handful

2:12:04but not nearly as many as I expected but yeah but I did you know the reality was

2:12:09that the the iOS ad blocker business is not a technical challenge at all it is I

2:12:17mean I suppose if you've never made a nap before it's as challenging as making

2:12:20any other kind of a but if you are if you are a an experienced app developer

2:12:25you can crap out of content locker in a week or less you can do it a couple days

2:12:29I mean it it is so easy to do and it is therefore not intellectually stimulating

2:12:36it's not satisfying really beyond you know the first couple days then it's

2:12:41just great work and it just keeping up the database which is really boring and

2:12:45which is not programming

2:12:47and it's not intellectually valuable it is it is not stimulating if you desire

2:12:52that kind of intellectual satisfaction so where the overcast is full of really

2:13:00satisfying complex technical problems that require my brain to be really

2:13:06working out of the best to solve properly and that is incredibly

2:13:10satisfying to me and I and i would i would much rather work on that you have

2:13:16the number to know how many ATP listeners listen to be overcast I don't

2:13:22know if it's something like sixty percent it's it's an it's an improper

2:13:27close to that from me because I do get those numbers from SoundCloud where I

2:13:32host the idea

2:13:37forget how to cook around get it

2:13:41overcast number one even more in second place is apple core media iPhone which

2:13:5099% sure translates to the built-in podcast app yet also add it also

2:13:56includes like anything with a B player so if you if you if you're playing a web

2:14:01page in bed or certain podcast apps actually report themselves as that

2:14:06because they don't change it or they can't reach that that part of the API

2:14:09with the level the playing at so there will be included in there for me it's a

2:14:16little it's a rate of 50% 60% but note no surprise that it's more like sixty

2:14:23four you wrote that but it is actually about fifty yeah that's right

2:14:309.92 13 episodes ago if people are timed it so yeah I'm up there

2:14:40change it to a month

2:14:45yeah actually it even more actually look bigger in Texas amor ya saben a

2:14:53deposition last seven days so if you count the whole month which gets to all

2:14:57the people who listen right away and I think it under samples the people of the

2:15:03last seven days because the biggest fans of the show listener new and so in the

2:15:06last seven days so it really really overwhelmingly number one for my

2:15:12listeners and if anybody out there has been curious about I really do recommend

2:15:15not just cuz markers on the show today but it's my favorite after listening to

2:15:18podcasts I'm really good at promotion so here I am talking about the app that I

2:15:22just pulled off the store for two hours while I'm gonna ship overcast 2.0 pretty

2:15:28soon and I'm not gonna be right back on to talk about that in like three weeks

2:15:33or whatever I'm really not good at the promotion yeah you're not good at all

2:15:37the big future in overcast to point out is this streaming engine which is in a

2:15:46patient just letting you listen to stuff right away and said i download the whole

2:15:50episode it's really more of like a just play just it's a good just play

2:15:55interface so whether you care about stream if you think you care about

2:15:58streaming Pakistan not if you've ever been frustrated because you wanted to

2:16:02start playing something but it didn't download in the background it just you

2:16:07just got the alert that the new episode of hello internet is out right away it

2:16:11just means they hit the play button and it'll just our play that so many people

2:16:16it when i when i was talking you know year ago and white house gmail is going

2:16:20to be a big deal I i didnt even including 1.0 because I knew that he

2:16:24would need it I heard from so many people who said please don't work on

2:16:28that please do other things because I don't care about streaming and granted I

2:16:33heard from way more people who said I won't use this until it has streaming

2:16:37which was you know the more common in motion by far but a lot of people just

2:16:43keep saying I don't need it I will never use it but the reality is it is really

2:16:47nice to have for those times when you know what you said an episode just came

2:16:51out or just came in you guys got you saved it and you want to start listening

2:16:54to it right now and podcast can be you know 5800

2:16:58bags and not every si tienes fast and not every connection that you might have

2:17:02this fast and so a lot of times you know if you if you have to wait for the whole

2:17:06podcast download you know it might take ten twenty seconds are my take five or

2:17:1110 minutes no matter what it takes is fueling an eternity as you're sitting

2:17:14there watching this stupid down than 1% 2%

2:17:18oh my god I wanna listen to it now and so like streaming really makes

2:17:22everything a little bit better and it and it enables a bunch of little stuff

2:17:26like it enables me to although I haven't done this yet to put the put a play

2:17:32button on the notifications for new episodes that you can just start playing

2:17:35immediately and stuff like that just like there are so many new little things

2:17:39that it makes possible and so many old things that makes better cuz right now

2:17:42with streaming now you can just as long as you are connected somehow you can tap

2:17:46on any episode any list whether you have it or not and it started to start

2:17:51playing and it's one of those things worse again the absolutist position it

2:17:57just doesn't work in software design where you wana sale nope no settings

2:18:00whatsoever

2:18:01the app gonna make all the choices for the user and doing right way or you

2:18:05could say everything should be configurable and and the user's be able

2:18:08to configure everything on both of those extremes are absurd and if you think

2:18:13you're sticking to them you're fooling yourself the right way to think about it

2:18:16is you do have kinda have to pick which side of the 50 yard line gonna be on

2:18:20this sort of app where you're going to default to not offering options and

2:18:26configurability and maybe you know you'll wind up not having enough options

2:18:32are you gonna default to saying yes to most things and having options for

2:18:38things and you know you're going to wind up with a complex number of settings and

2:18:42and you know one way or the other you know you're gonna disappoint some users

2:18:47I clearly you Marco Arment err on the side of not offering too many options

2:18:54stuff that you build I mean and peace was canonical example of that but you

2:19:00have to you talk to others and ATP there have to be some settings for streaming

2:19:04because it's different people have it around the world even maybe even within

2:19:09the country even just in the united states have incredibly different

2:19:13situations with intolerant levels for data charges right there's people who

2:19:20are living in countries where you know they're they're online database you know

2:19:25their online data is still measured in megabytes not gigabyte or people who are

2:19:31traveling internationally and on an international data plan and you measured

2:19:36in megabytes and gigabytes what you know

2:19:3825 megabyte data plan you cannot download an episode of the talk show

2:19:43over cellular unless you wanna pay overage charges but then there's plenty

2:19:48of other people who have unlimited data or virtually unlimited data

2:19:52you know with you know 15 or 20 gigabytes a month and a hundred and

2:19:56fifty megabyte podcast is no big deal and they want to download it there so

2:20:00they have to be settings and the funny thing is like going back to our earlier

2:20:03conversation I i really sweat a lot of the details around this stuff to try to

2:20:07minimize data transfer meanwhile you view a couple of web pages on a big site

2:20:13and that's as much the podcast episode it is it's some of the defect that

2:20:20people are measuring these things now I've always known things are big and

2:20:23that some sites are obviously serving too much data compared to what you know

2:20:29something I if it's an article I just want to read it should not be measured

2:20:32in megabytes but now that people are actually measuring it while they test

2:20:37this content blockers it was like holy crap no wonder when I was in Ireland for

2:20:42all that I mowed through my hundred megabytes data plan of while I thought I

2:20:47was being

2:20:48you know conservative with how much I used my phone I thought you know hey I'm

2:20:56just glad I just read a couple articles on Techmeme and see if there's anything

2:20:59new going on the 101 page on the verge load 7 megabytes

2:21:04yeah you see all these all these reports are like pages seven megs 9:30

2:21:10megabus.com likes some create it's like a podcast episode is like 30 to 50 megs

2:21:16usually like that's that's eight ten web pages maybe it's not that's really

2:21:23scared it's really scary and really said venue ASOS dreaming I dunno I've

2:21:28actually offered by offering very few options on we'll see how it plays out

2:21:33again and you can't use the absolute positions never work as always gonna be

2:21:37realities and also market pressures that said in so I'm trying to have as few

2:21:43settings possible to still make it good but of course everyone's trying that

2:21:48everyone I can't trust that live in different places I think the biggest

2:21:52thing is to try to avoid surprise right now with the way it works right now is

2:21:59probably going to ship is if you choose to stream something it will always allow

2:22:05it to use cellular in that case and the rationale there is that will that's how

2:22:10everything else works you know if you let a web page it doesn't ask it doesn't

2:22:14say waiting for WiFi you know it's just if you click on a link to load a webpage

2:22:18it just loads it by whatever connection has available and if you want to

2:22:22restrict apps tonight you so you can do that globally in settings you can say

2:22:26per app you can go to overcast in the system so you can say just never let us

2:22:31have to use any sort of like the switch right there you can do a lot of people

2:22:34do and so all I have to do is I don't have to cover the case of people who

2:22:39want the app to use no cell data does the system covers that I have to cover

2:22:44the case of people who want to use it sometimes or or want to use it always

2:22:50and so the way everything else works web pages more importantly stuff like

2:22:56YouTube if you was obviously massive that is the entire internet too

2:23:01people like your son and lots of other people in the world but that's a big

2:23:05deal you know YouTube if you are on cellular data and you long to YouTube

2:23:12thing and go view of your YouTube video it just plays it it streams it and it

2:23:16plays it over Celta that's fine if you go play a song these days you're

2:23:20probably playing off cell data of people listening to songs like the idea of like

2:23:26having to like prompt the user or make a lot of granular settings for when do you

2:23:31sell data i think is outdated and and so now I think I can get away with the

2:23:37current options that I have which is literally a just ahead on streaming cuz

2:23:42you initiate that by you the user said play this now and so in my opinion then

2:23:47you don't have to ask are you sure you have played over Celtic is your son Eric

2:23:52know these days you know what year is this you play it now and then the only

2:23:57option I have is whether automatic background downloads should use cellular

2:24:01began its default off so that's the army back on down will default to wi-fi only

2:24:07because in that case it's like well you didn't initiate this came in outside

2:24:12your control could come in the middle of the night you when you were asleep and

2:24:16your iPad download entire episode of Mad Men and burn through your whole heart

2:24:19present get that could have happened so you know that that is a preference to me

2:24:25that is like ok do do you have so much data that you always want the the the

2:24:30app to use much of it as it needs to do or do you want to be easily used on

2:24:36demand that seems about right that seems right let the automatic stuff still wifi

2:24:40let the user initiated tough play yeah and you know you're never going to win

2:24:45some is going to complain but I think in general it's actually your logic is

2:24:52completely corrected if the user hit play and they have a working network

2:24:56connection they mean play right that's how I know podcast apps historically

2:25:01have not worked that way always like they've offered we're going to control

2:25:04but I'm not see I'm not looking at what other podcast after doing to solve this

2:25:07problem i'm looking at what other apps are doing not pocket like just what what

2:25:11people expect based on the reality of other apt existence

2:25:15Universe Today and what that is these days is a lot of streaming media and it

2:25:19and it just use a cellular when it needs to ask you

2:25:22yeah I think part of it too is that things have changed so quickly and so

2:25:25few years and that streaming in general is just become a huge phenomenon but

2:25:31podcasting started back in the name even says you know it's the iPad iPod

2:25:37broadcasting from a time when you downloaded stuff first

2:25:42USB and that it was a big deal and they had cast episode ratings you had to wait

2:25:49for while they downloaded cuz they were big whereas you know it's not that big

2:25:55anymore and you know most people are an awful lot of people have cellular

2:25:58network connections that handle it easily as they can handle video video

2:26:02and audio easily exactly you know so and there was also a implementation details

2:26:08that were tricky problems like one of them is if you're on cellular how much

2:26:13should the streamer read ahead of the file like should should just keep

2:26:18downloading tool has the whole thing or should only buffer ahead like five

2:26:22minutes worth at a time you know and and so on and the decision came to on that

2:26:27is it reaches down as much as I can never feel like it so if you if you

2:26:33start an episode of playing over cellular in streaming it will download

2:26:38as much as I can until the connection drops or until it finishes the file

2:26:41that's because any other solution that I thought of and tried would fail in other

2:26:47ways like it would it would be inconvenient or annoying I wouldn't be

2:26:50what I wanted into situations and the fact is an entire podcast episode I know

2:26:55most people who listen to podcasts are listening to shows like this that are

2:26:59two hours long

2:27:00most people are listening to stuff like you know public radio shows that are

2:27:04maybe twenty thirty minutes

2:27:06and so those are like 15 mags 20 megs like they really small files and that's

2:27:12like two verge articles so it's no big deal to buffer head whereas it is a big

2:27:17deal if somebody is driving along Highway trip and are counting on

2:27:21streaming to play their their podcast for them and they lose reception for a

2:27:25few minutes of the mountains and the show they were downloading just drops

2:27:30because it didn't buffer had enough and it could have had the connection back

2:27:33there could have the whole show had plenty of time to download it and it

2:27:36just didn't you know so their situation like that or you know more commonly like

2:27:41if you're on a metro system as underground stuff like that so it's it

2:27:45was better that again another decision that if I make that decision

2:27:49five years ago ten years ago I would have probably made differently but you

2:27:52know now this is this is the area where things stream and it's not a big deal

2:27:58and if you need to really restrict the amount of data did you use you have to

2:28:03you consciously download media for offline use and then like you know and

2:28:08and avoid at least two meetings or go to the System Settings app internal sailor

2:28:12for all these apps I think you're on the right track that is going to be hit me

2:28:17take one last break here and hit the money button once again thank our our

2:28:21fourth and final sponsored longtime friends of the show

2:28:24longtime friend of ATP as well igloo igloo software dot com slash the talk

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2:30:38just free if you have more than 10 people you can try it out right now for

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2:30:49to 10 of your colleagues just to see that it works get it setup configure it

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2:30:55tested out and until you're satisfied with it you don't have to pay for

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2:31:16longtime friends of the show people keep writing to me I get a lot of mail from

2:31:19people saying they signed up for a very very happy with it could offer has been

2:31:28their admin you know they started when they started years ago they they got

2:31:31sandwich to make videos for you they were they were really they've been

2:31:34progressively from the store

2:31:36yeah they did like TV commercials with sandwich it's tough I don't have much

2:31:43time we've been going on forever and we always go along and we haven't gone too

2:31:45terribly long but we don't have a lot of time I guess we can just briefly briefly

2:31:52talked about the new iPhone is now you've got one yeah we get to announce

2:32:00now so what did you guys get success she got going up black and no no

2:32:10pluses now and we went 16 gigs for you know I think you guys have been more

2:32:18more critical of the 16 gig then I have your your you are more convinced that

2:32:23it's an upsell products marketing I don't know that it's it's it's not that

2:32:30they want to make higher margins on the 16 Gigabyte front it's that they want to

2:32:35make higher margins because there's enough people out there who would if if

2:32:40they if the bottom line was 32 and 16 they would buy that 32 but they know

2:32:45that 16 isn't enough so they do bite the bullet and buy 64 and that's an entire

2:32:50$100 extra hundred dollars in revenue and probably close to $100 in you know

2:32:56in margin correct i mean you know you can look at something as you know well

2:33:00there is there's lots of justifications for this you can look at it you know

2:33:05there's there's reasons like you know like there was on here and he explained

2:33:09a lot of justifications for why this works is also hurting other people when

2:33:13I work with people who are saying well you know this is for bodies for business

2:33:18by you know thousands for employees or whatever and we don't need them to have

2:33:22more space which i think is a terrible argument and you could you know you can

2:33:26apply to the need cameras do they need like a headphone jack off a lot of

2:33:31things so there's a lot of bad justifications for it but I think

2:33:36separating justifications from reasons is important and I think the main reason

2:33:43for it is it is not it is not necessarily to to make the extra couple

2:33:48of dollars of margin in the sixteen your little it's that they're selling so many

2:33:51more of the sixty four's that it is most likely having a significant boost on the

2:33:57average selling price and when you're talking about the most profitable

2:34:01product of the most profitable company like a significant boost to the average

2:34:07selling price of their best selling product is massively important that is a

2:34:13big deal to them and they don't always do what's a hundred percent better for

2:34:17customers always a balancing act you know it's it's you know they they they

2:34:21will they're happy to charge $45 for you know a leather case that they could sell

2:34:27for a lot less you know stuff like that like you know they they're not totally a

2:34:31charity here they're doing stuff as a balance between satisfaction and profit

2:34:35and I did this one of those things were in my opinion they've chosen Braun I

2:34:39think they have not bounced this correctly in this case that I i think

2:34:43that the long-term costs to satisfaction and to the the load it places on support

2:34:51on the Genius Bar the problems people face with their full phones and trying

2:34:58to manage storage themselves as you know I i think all these things are are poor

2:35:02balance of futility vs vs profit and I would say the same thing about you know

2:35:09other things like the the iCloud storage tier pricing

2:35:14just got better but still not great you know there's there's problems like this

2:35:20without Paul and most of the stuff they do is a pretty good value but but

2:35:25there's there's alleges like this where you can just kinda tell oh yeah this is

2:35:29Vegas did this because

2:35:31this would be a massive difference in profit

2:35:34yeah and I it's we I i cant help it has to change this year though who knows I

2:35:42keep thinking well next year when they go to the 752 up the minimum 232 and the

2:35:47OS isn't gonna get bigger so it'll just mean that there's a lot more free space

2:35:51for everybody and I think to myself and I've had won a bet on that because maybe

2:35:57you know they've had it in the thing I can think about is if they did it again

2:36:02gone from the 6th to the success with the exact same split and they changed so

2:36:06much other stuff they changed the actual aluminum alloy they make the things out

2:36:10of so it's not like they're afraid to change stuff in it also seems like they

2:36:15changed the flash point saying it's much faster

2:36:17yes and and whether that's because it's the component or at least the like was

2:36:26at Ars Technica I think that had this tax code that the storage controller is

2:36:32new and is now more like you know it effectively like a MacBook storage

2:36:39controller so it's it's a serious upgrade it is in addition to like the

2:36:43CPU and GPU benchmarks being equivalent to the met the MacBook 1 it really seems

2:36:51like they've upped their storage performance in the way they treat

2:36:54storage 22 laptop MacBook quality engineering which is again it's a crazy

2:37:00big change this whole notion that the ass ones are just minor revisions to

2:37:05really really crazy I think of anything in my review I think I undersold this

2:37:11this new theory I have which is that it takes Johnny Ives team two years ago got

2:37:17this boil down to a good now takes two years to come up with it would they

2:37:20think is a superior design as in this is what it looks like this is the basic

2:37:27gist of the you know it's going to have this these sized screens with this pixel

2:37:31resolution and there's gonna be a button down here that you then that'll be a

2:37:35bigger now a fingerprint center

2:37:39these are the button to these sizes and then you know somebody you know the

2:37:44engineering teams have to do that will how do we make this and because it takes

2:37:48two years for these new designs to come out and because two years is good pace

2:37:52for them for new designs for product marketing reasons anyway it means that

2:37:57the engineering teams get two cracks at they get the first crack which is how

2:38:01can we make this you know to hit the ship date and you know and then they get

2:38:08a second tyre year after that to ok how can we do it how can we make that design

2:38:14even better and in terms of you know they rethink everything every single

2:38:17thing you touch on this iPhone is a different material than than last year's

2:38:21I mean maybe the rubber gaskets that cover the antennas are the are the same

2:38:26material but it's a new aluminum minutes in a new glass so if they wanted to

2:38:30change them in room 232 they could have done it and I just keep thinking about

2:38:33the fact that if if the customer satisfaction

2:38:37downside to the 16 gig minimum where is significant enough to to worry them they

2:38:44would have changed it that they could have seen those numbers last year early

2:38:49on and we've got you know that that's a thing that I think that they could have

2:38:54changed

2:38:55say between last December and this September and I think a lot of it is

2:39:00locked down here in advance but they could have gained momentum

2:39:04I do worry a little bit you know we've seen I think I think in the Tim Cook era

2:39:08of Apple I think it's safe to say based on our observations from the outside and

2:39:14similar statements I think it's probably safe to assume that they are more data

2:39:17driven and they used to be like with Steve it was like you know it was very

2:39:21much still based on Steve's intuitions to a large degree right and and you know

2:39:26tim is very much is much more data driven and so the that's showing in the

2:39:30company and I worry one of the things that came up from various Apple people

2:39:34that I spoke with more than I heard from one of the things that came up during

2:39:39the the function of high ground thing is that about half of Apple was like Oh my

2:39:46God thank you for finally saying that I've been trying to convince higher-ups

2:39:49for years that we need to slow down and fix things

2:39:51and and the other part I heard was that a lot of this was catching higher-ups by

2:39:57surprise that that they thought they were doing better than what I thought

2:40:02and what a lot of other people thought and and this is very much a metric

2:40:07German company I would go even further than that and I i when I heard wasn't

2:40:12just that that side of the company thought they were doing better than what

2:40:15you and others

2:40:16yeah I hear ya that's right they they honestly and truly believe believed and

2:40:23maybe he'll continue believe that they're doing better on software quality

2:40:25than ever before in the company's history not just that they were doing

2:40:29okay that they were doing better than ever right and so my concern is two-fold

2:40:36first of all the fact that that there's a massive discount of opinion there is

2:40:42right that shows a problem somewhere online that should be considered but my

2:40:47main concern is that we we can see definitely that they are way more

2:40:51metrics driven a number of different than they have been before that there

2:40:55that is the new culture of apple and and it has brought a lot of positives and

2:41:04this is one that i think is is certainly positive in some areas but it also has

2:41:08risk they have to look out for am Not sure if a balanced one of the biggest

2:41:12risk is you have to make sure you're measuring the right numbers you know and

2:41:17and you know whatever metrics you are collecting is that the whole picture and

2:41:21also what ever mention you're collecting will first of all they will be gained by

2:41:26internal people within the company like internal departments will gain the

2:41:29metrics because they have to be cut up the pressure that is put on them and

2:41:33when they have to start making decisions about difficult things to cut or to put

2:41:36off or whatever you know they know what metrics they're judged on and so people

2:41:41will gain metrics that it's the way that you know and I know you're not a big

2:41:45sports fan but it's the reason that every single team sport with the ball

2:41:49has what seems to be from an outsider a complex set of rules I get the more you

2:41:55learn about baseball the more you think these rules are crazy but it's all about

2:41:58the fact that if the game is about

2:42:01you know how many people cross home plate and touch home plate that if these

2:42:04rules were in place people teams will do whatever they could within the rules

2:42:09that are in place to game the game right everything gets game during your exam

2:42:15and ties into the advertising discussion we had four hours ago so it so I do

2:42:22worry that Apple is is putting all this emphasis internally on metrics I wonder

2:42:28what they're missing and because we we've seen already you know with the

2:42:33high ground than we've seen that there are things that missing and then they

2:42:36need to be shown that sometimes from the outside and and part of the reason why

2:42:39complain so much about certain things Apple does is because I know that that

2:42:43outside voices like ours can affect things internally usually whatever we

2:42:48are arguing about outside somebody inside is arguing about to I think

2:42:52there's outside support for one viewpoint of the other week and we can

2:42:55be giving ammunition to the side that we want to win the fight

2:42:58yeah I think that the whole discovery thing was a perfect example of the type

2:43:05of tenants slip through their metrics I mean one of the things I know that they

2:43:08were thinking about where crash reports and that there's this whole opt-in

2:43:13system that apple i think is very very upfront about and in fact there may even

2:43:17be to upfront about it because it when you upgrade your OS on systems you have

2:43:21to always reluctant to these things they they might even ask they might they

2:43:25might even err on the side of asking too many times you know you sure you want to

2:43:28let us have location services enabled on this device even if you said it already

2:43:32you just upgraded to a major new version of the OS two gonna ask you again so the

2:43:37they know that most of the overwhelming majority of users on the Mac Mac and I

2:43:43was popped into the will you send us the crash reports and stuff like that for

2:43:48helping us make things better and that's one of the things that they've measured

2:43:53and one of the things that they know has gone way down in recent years is

2:43:58crashing

2:43:59I anecdotally that feels true to me as well

2:44:03fewer and fewer apps crash in terms of just disappearing in getting the

2:44:10and especially if I'd and daring and I'm not measuring thing about just in my

2:44:15mind almost all the crashes I see nowadays americorps from beta software

2:44:19that I'm testing and that I expect to crash it feels to me like apps crash

2:44:25last specially Apple's apps yeah I'd say right and the discovery do you think all

2:44:31of the various problems that people have seen from it are the type of things that

2:44:35there aren't crashes they're just weird silent failures you know like when the

2:44:40printer that I've been using for the last four years and the only printer I

2:44:45use and I hit command P and nothing ever comes out of it and I go over to the

2:44:50thing with the Red Badge in my doc and it just says cannot be found and they go

2:44:55to this thing and the system settings and try to configure the printer and I

2:45:01can't configure it and I just sit here and I see if any can print and she can

2:45:06print but I can't it doesn't even see the printer and then I just turn the

2:45:09printer off and on and back on again and now we're all just works but I haven't

2:45:15updated anything on my printer that's for damn sure the printer hasn't changed

2:45:19at all that never gets reported that Apple that never get there is no crash

2:45:24log they get sent there is no I you know syria heard John cursing in his office

2:45:29about the printer that never heard it doesn't register right as a sort of

2:45:35thing that you just kind of have to kind of have to play by field and internally

2:45:40have to be like hey guys this is a shitshow this Apple TV keeps calling

2:45:45itself Apple TV print the season 13 and then playing it by feel that as we all

2:45:51know that was one of steve's greatest strengths that he was like he was really

2:45:55on point and yet he wasn't always perfect but his track record was pretty

2:45:58good in playing it by feel and and so you know when when you move to this

2:46:03metric system you have to both a makes you know you have to be on the lookout

2:46:07for gaming and try to reduce it or eliminate incentives for it

2:46:11we whenever possible and that's that's an ongoing constant constant battle and

2:46:16be you have to really makes you have to look at like what do the metrics not

2:46:20include what what where the blind spots of these metrics of these metrics and

2:46:25every set of metrics is gonna have massive line spots and and that is where

2:46:30I think there is still room for improvement there and CEO of Apple is

2:46:33measuring their their beloved customer sat in ways that that showed the 16 gig

2:46:40is is not a problem for most of the people who have it i mean you know they

2:46:45have a have way more data than we do so they could be right that could be true

2:46:49most of the things Apple says are you know our service level in the face of it

2:46:55you know like but my blog post there was no deeper meaning like most of the

2:46:58things you always say most of the couple says are pretty straightforward and true

2:47:01but this is one of those cases where if they keep saying that 16 gig is fine if

2:47:07people are happy enough with it that is in really stark contrast and

2:47:13disagreement to what I and everyone I know sees anecdotally from our friends

2:47:19and relatives who have 16 gig phones and and like I love like one under for David

2:47:24Smith put his analysis of free space that was that was great adventures like

2:47:30actual broad data set from people who aren't all nerds who have you know how

2:47:36much free space they actually have and how many and you know we all everyone

2:47:39who's been around other people with iPhones we've all known people who like

2:47:43they go to take a picture of our phones fall or get a message via phone is full

2:47:47or there i cud story just full and I have no idea what to do about that

2:47:50exactly and you know I S storage management has never been particularly

2:47:55easy or obvious and how to do it you know there's all these all these

2:48:00problems people have people who are stuck on all devices like that and they

2:48:03learned big time with how low the adoption rate was if I was 8 compared to

2:48:07previous releases because they had all these eight and 16 gig phone that didn't

2:48:11have space to install it and they just never people just never install it I

2:48:16would I would say actually I think that the way that I was still sore storage

2:48:20terms of dealing with a low storage situation is actually better than it's

2:48:23ever been and better than anything on the back and in terms of the Mac you're

2:48:27dealing with the finder and you've already lost most people fire filesystem

2:48:32applause them and so the way that you can go into settings now interview least

2:48:36Google enough you can probably get someone to tell you know go to Settings

2:48:40General good usage and it'll show you which apps are using how much data and

2:48:44then you can do something right there and deal with it that's actually pretty

2:48:47good about its good just blaming the whole app you know here this app is

2:48:52using for gigabyte is about as good as it's gonna get from for mass-market

2:48:57typical people but you most people are gonna get that far I just linked to a

2:49:01thing before I started recording today that around the world there's like five

2:49:06or six percent of Facebook users don't know that they're using the internet

2:49:10when they let you go around and pull people and see how much do you use the

2:49:16internet and you get you know forty percent and then to use Facebook and its

2:49:21like 60 percent or how is it really possible they're obviously misinform but

2:49:27if you're surprised that there are that many people who don't realize the face

2:49:31on the internet you really just don't understand how I'm technical people are

2:49:37you know then it is not to say that they're not intelligent they just don't

2:49:41they might be unintelligent but it might just be the day or not technically

2:49:45inclined and decreasing relevance of the web

2:49:49very possible very possible like the date and and and combine that with the

2:49:54age old genius of Microsoft branding their browser Internet Explorer which

2:50:01made people think that that was the internet which was very purposeful and

2:50:06again gets tied into like the whole joe camel marketing angle you know marketing

2:50:11is evil you know from earlier in the show

2:50:14that was very deliberate and they know they're not using the thing that the

2:50:18internet because they're not using the browser and so therefore they're not

2:50:21using the internet that's just that's just the loose way people think about

2:50:25things and it speaks to the genius of modern smartphones that they're able to

2:50:30do so much and share so much and be so engaged by not really understanding the

2:50:36underlying technology at all but you know therefore if you're surprised that

2:50:40people some number of people by 16 gigabyte phones and have no idea that

2:50:45there something you know they're doing themselves a great disservice it it's

2:50:49not their fault they that this is the bottom gets people like you say people I

2:50:54know there's people just people who are out there its rage swearing at us

2:50:57listening to the podcast saying you know my company by 16 just fine because we do

2:51:03but if Apple wants to sell them to the enterprise fund some directly to the

2:51:08enterprise but don't sell them in retail stores to consumers because underscores

2:51:12data shows that somewhere around 37% of those people have at least by his users

2:51:18of his but I think it very very possible that that's let's call it one in three

2:51:21so we'll even air on the you know underscore says 37 will call it 30 31

2:51:26percent of the people with 16 gigabytes iPhones have under 1 gigabyte of space

2:51:31available which is really really some of them have you know really low under one

2:51:37gigabyte but if you don't even have one gigabyte available you're really in

2:51:41trouble for a lot of little things like a lot of things just aren't failing at

2:51:45that point I like having the room to download a hundred and fifty megabyte

2:51:49podcast that you wanna listen to or to record video like the thing that he

2:51:53showed that his wife got when she took up the camera and she could not record

2:51:56video because there wasn't enough space and you know it it really meant the

2:52:03other thing you look at his stats is so the next step up now 64 and you look at

2:52:08how many people with 64 gigabytes of storage problems and it's effectively

2:52:11yeah I mean the sad thing is you know I heard rumblings here and there from

2:52:17various tipsters some of us have no credibility heard rumblings that they

2:52:22are finally going to fix this next year and with the iPhone seven it's going to

2:52:26start either 32 or even 64

2:52:30I worry though but by the time if they ever move up to 32 maybe that's gonna be

2:52:36too small but you know cuz you know the point of this it's very much like when

2:52:42when you're designing a nap with a pay wall and I have never guessed you know

2:52:46when you're doing that with a payroll of some sort whether it's a free trial with

2:52:50you know shareware style unlock all features whatever the idea is to put

2:52:57that wall and at a threshold sucks that you're creating a small pain point for

2:53:02people so that they won't like frustratingly quickly wrap and sable as

2:53:07you can even try it but you have to create that pain that pain point at such

2:53:12a place where most people will reasonably run into it a few times and a

2:53:17good percentage of those people will run into it enough that it pushes them it

2:53:21motivates them into paying and I use the term pain point here intentionally get

2:53:27it this is like you're causing inconvenience or you're making people

2:53:32like a wallet unpleasant they want to go past because if you don't do that if you

2:53:36are too generous with what you give away for free

2:53:40effectively nobody buys it is one of the things like absent have ads by default

2:53:45and you can pay to remove the ads historically those have very very low

2:53:49payment rates almost no you know effectively almost nobody pays to remove

2:53:53at me too but we're weird you know most people are just like well okay I'll take

2:53:59the end like that isn't enough pain point or if you say like you know

2:54:04suppose you're I suppose with overcast if I said well in order to subscribe to

2:54:10more than 33 podcast you have to unlock the the pay thing well most people

2:54:16subscribe to like to podcasts or one-and-a-half podcast something that

2:54:19average so far they would even hit that and then I would create this horrible

2:54:24and sent

2:54:25for people not to try out new show so so like that that's why I don't limit that

2:54:30the things but I don't get that and so you know with apple and when their

2:54:36pricing their products when they're designing the tears of deciding what

2:54:40what the storage tiers or whatever the the product lines you know where does

2:54:44the mini run into the air wearers the air now into the Pro we're on the

2:54:48MacBooks how do you know where the size boundaries lie and what capabilities do

2:54:51you have to move up to get at each stage like all these things are designed to

2:54:56try to place those those barriers in those limits and those boundary between

2:55:00classes between price levels try to place them at a point where you're going

2:55:05to capture a lot more value from a lot of people who are going to hit those

2:55:09barriers and are going to want to push past about paying you more money that is

2:55:13the whole point if they if if Apple did their job badly they would give away too

2:55:18much for free that the low it but Apple trust do their job well and they're very

2:55:22very good that most of the time so when I like these these storage tiers are

2:55:28designed specifically to maximize that look at the iPad and iPad pro I was just

2:55:34about to and 128 right and in the 128 is so we are only available Mon 28 right so

2:55:41there's only three available you can refer $7.99 $77.99 you can get a 32

2:55:47gigabyte no cellular 49 49 you can get a hundred and twenty eight gigs no

2:55:53cellular and infer 1079 their their usual $130 upgrade for the cellular you

2:56:00can get $128 those are the only three configurations available I actually

2:56:05think that's great I think it's great that it's a lot simpler they don't have

2:56:08three storage tiers it's just too you want the real on and let's face it the

2:56:11real one is the 122 want cellular not and the 32 totally makes sense in the

2:56:18context of industrial uses of the iPad Pro for the enterprise

2:56:23like single abuses yeah and I got us talking to doctor wave from Pixar you

2:56:28know they've been publicized this is public information secret that Apple was

2:56:32there at Pixar last week and letting their artists play with them and use

2:56:36them in and test the palm rejection which they were very pleased with myself

2:56:41very pleased they called it like near perfect but I guess it to him about the

2:56:4632 is when you go to go

2:56:48course because they don't store anything on it connected to their little internal

2:56:52internet and it's all stored on servers and so that they can share it and it's

2:56:57all there so the end of the extra storage should be completely and utterly

2:56:59wasted on them and it's also the lack of cellular is a feature because they don't

2:57:05want these things connected the cellular networks they want them connected only

2:57:08to their little internal network like that I didn't even talk to him about

2:57:12this but I know in the movie industry in general that whole thing where Sony got

2:57:15Act has really really upped their game on security and places like hospitals

2:57:20and stuff like that with all the HIPAA laws you know this configuration is

2:57:25perfect for them it is not you know if you're a consumer though you want them

2:57:28128 you probably want the moment so yeah I think it's very obvious and also the

2:57:35low end model 32 is a great little low end things where there's still plenty of

2:57:39space for things like software updates and temporary caches and deposits of

2:57:43iPad whereas a 16 gigabyte model on that would have been like it would be

2:57:48terrible yeah I like you know if I get one for various testing purposes I would

2:57:54get 32 because I wouldn't be like a power user of that right that feels like

2:57:58it's ok but just barely get to it does feel kind of weird to spend $900 on his

2:58:06high-end thing and then to not spend the extra hundred fifty or whatever to

2:58:12quadruple the story because this is the kind of thing you can never change you

2:58:17can never upgrade that stuff away are like it you can't undo that decision and

2:58:23and they know that when their pricing it and when they're deciding these they

2:58:26know that and they know that a certain percentage of people usually I would

2:58:30expect a pretty good one will rationalize that same thought it well

2:58:34I'm already spending

2:58:36850 to 950 or quadruple this thing that might be a problem for me in the future

2:58:40if I don't do it you know it the same thing without AppleCare know that this

2:58:44is a very telling that was work this is this is business so all this is a very

2:58:48long way to say I definitely still believe that the 16 gig phones are a

2:58:53decision to raise average selling price not because it is best for customers and

2:58:59and I don't necessarily even I'm not even that mad at them about it because

2:59:04you know that's a that's business that's that's the kind of decision that they

2:59:08have to make to be successful and every business person does this and you know

2:59:13Apple is not you know Santa Claus you know they their business and and they're

2:59:18gonna make money off the bus and we happily keep giving it to them and so

2:59:22they're obviously do something right they only do one last down with us the

2:59:26other thing that causes me to think about it a lot is that it's the it lab

2:59:33that the the repercussions of this last for at least three years because what it

2:59:38means is that next year the mid tier phone is going to be a 16 gigabyte

2:59:43started a 16 gigabyte iPhone success and then two years and now the free free

2:59:49with contract $99 found is going to be the iPhone success for 16 gigabytes is

2:59:54going to be brand new iPhone did some people are buying with 16 gigabytes

2:59:54going to be brand new iPhone did some people are buying with 16 gigabytes

3:00:00or at least the next three years they've been selling eighths at the lower end I

3:00:06think I don't know are they still now they worry they were before last week

3:00:12before last thelma 575 see how many gig yeah yeah so you know it's the fact that

3:00:19the minimum when the iPhone 5 CKD malice six made it you know I made a difference

3:00:24and a minimum now at least the minimum in the us- is 16 now in the 50 US yet

3:00:30they might sorry somewhere around the world but but that still means that it's

3:00:35going to be 16 though for awhile

3:00:39exactly i thought id I linked to it today and I don't want to repeat it I

3:00:45just tell people to go live you know you and I don't have this episode is pretty

3:00:49short Sofia Starr volatile afropop cassis and coalesce into its a great

3:00:54podcast in general but I really thought it was a fantastic episode of upgrade

3:00:58with Jason's now and Mike Hurley and they talked about upgrading to iOS nine

3:01:03and or or getting a new phone you buy a new iPhone you have an old iPhone you

3:01:07want to upgrade from here back up what an enormous pain in the ass that that

3:01:12really is an infant anything it's gotten worse over the years because the phones

3:01:15do so much more than a so much more permission and some of the things I

3:01:19totally understand I know it has to be that way it actually a feature that you

3:01:23have to redo your fingerprints that's actually good even though it's a little

3:01:27bit of a pain in the ass you have to reenter your credit cards I realized

3:01:31that actually feature because the credit card data is stored on a secure element

3:01:35and if it was a thing that they could just copy from one phone to another that

3:01:38wouldn't be very secure in the fact that it literally cannot be copied from there

3:01:42to here that's great so some of those things are obviously it can't be avoided

3:01:48but it takes so long and you end in it so indeterminate what you're waiting for

3:01:54like 2 June ran into the new upgrade when you get a new phone you upgrade

3:01:57from a backup yeah I do I do the iTunes backup and everything at this time I did

3:02:02it mostly seamlessly his phone came with a dead SIM cards so we had to swap the

3:02:08sim on that one and I had a I had the endless loop of

3:02:12of iCloud authentication dialog during the setup process problem with infertile

3:02:16couples mention that they ran to as well yeah everything that I like I did the

3:02:21whole thing or not impair the watch then back up the phone then restore to the

3:02:25new phone then repair the washington new phone and although it's been mostly ok

3:02:29it's I've gotten is down because and again this is not really complain it you

3:02:35know it's great that I get these reviewed in its and front two weeks

3:02:39earlier to write about them before other people I get to spend more time but now

3:02:43the day due to new phones here five C 56 and six plus in the success in six-plus

3:02:49I get to phone to test so there's two phones that have to go through this

3:02:53within an hour's by my own my own about my own I don't pay for my own personal

3:02:58use iPhone so that means I get a period of three weeks I do this with the

3:03:03refunds every year and then later in the fall I generally end up doing it with an

3:03:08iPad 2 so my bio I might buy my own iPad I don't buy an iPad every year but these

3:03:13tests want so I i do this without five or six devices every year a british

3:03:18people within a boy to do this more often because they're using test unit to

3:03:22the hardware so that people inside Apple have to know this and I think that if

3:03:25you do it like I do more than 12 year you're more the inadequacy of this

3:03:33system are in your face and I really any and now that they're selling a program

3:03:38to upgrade every year encouraging people to upgrade every year I really hope that

3:03:42that someone with an Apple there's a you know this is a high priority we really

3:03:47gotta streamline this was not a win but I was not aware that if you do the

3:03:55iCloud backup you still have to reenter all your passwords yeah yeah I come back

3:04:00I was not get it doesn't count as encrypted don't want to store your

3:04:04passwords

3:04:06keychain I think it's gonna be there long term solution around that which

3:04:10doesn't like it always keep someone device right it doesn't actually that's

3:04:14why you have to go to another device to approve it right but that's where the

3:04:19long-term goal of that but I think one thing that is that is very obvious here

3:04:23first of all is that like once again

3:04:25like sometimes sometimes stuff about the Apple watch kinda seems like it was

3:04:28developed like on a spaceship away from Apple a candidate like it just kind of

3:04:31got handed to them and it was done like there's certain things about it just

3:04:35like this is obviously like the rest of the company didn't see this are approved

3:04:39this before they got or like where this come from you know so there's certain

3:04:43things but I think obviously the weighty Apple watch deals with backing itself up

3:04:49to the iPhone and and moving it to a different phone it's very on Apple like

3:04:55if I can use a generalization is very much like this does not seem like it was

3:05:01wealthy Apple's whole thing is like the integration top-to-bottom they make

3:05:05everything they make the software to make the hard way to meet the services

3:05:08they make everything the way the Apple watch pairs and backs up to a phone or

3:05:12doesn't rather is it just seems like this like thing that was tacked on and

3:05:19it was not thought of with you know with integration in mind with the whole stack

3:05:23in mind with with what happens with your phone upgrade in mind and that seems

3:05:28like a massive oversight and hopefully as it was it's a 1.0 and they'll get to

3:05:32it because it does seem freaky weird that like by default your watch is not

3:05:40backing up to your phone

3:05:41ever it seems to only do when you run parent I think so yeah and if you so if

3:05:47you like wipe your old phone and while in the process of it's very easy to end

3:05:55up as a as an ideal Apple customer meaning ideal from Apple's perspective

3:05:59you're a big fan and when they when they release new things you just go out by

3:06:03the so you've already got Apple watch and you buy a new iPhone

3:06:06it's very very easy to wind up like like with a default factory installed watch

3:06:12again then like losing your activity data and that's a major like that could

3:06:17play as as a slacker who like barely hold together and exercise regime here

3:06:21like if I lost all my tv dinner that's a major demotivators to keep going because

3:06:26it's a holding when I get the idea that I've got this streak going

3:06:30the motivators like that should not be taken as lightly you know temporary data

3:06:35and with Alltel kid is like how how crazy is it that the watch a doesn't

3:06:42seem to back itself up at all and when it does back it up it doesn't back up to

3:06:47iCloud backup to just that local phone that is crazy they included a visit for

3:06:54a long time

3:06:55iCloud backups have adjusted for a long time before the watch why doesn't the

3:06:59watch regularly at night when it's plugged in

3:07:02just like the phone back it up to a club and you don't have I wanted the benefits

3:07:07of the watches that you just don't have much user-created data it's possible to

3:07:11have a lot of user-created data that you know but the stuff that is there the

3:07:15metrics

3:07:16biometrics and stuff like the fact that it's not and it's even just your

3:07:21settings and stuff is annoying to lose all that stuff if you understand how it

3:07:25works it makes sense why you have to first one parent with the old phone and

3:07:30then and then it makes sense why the unpaired takes five minutes because

3:07:35that's when the backup takes place so why does it take five minutes two

3:07:39unpaired your iPhone because that's when it backs up so that you can then restore

3:07:43it when you done within that makes some sense doesn't make you say well that to

3:07:47the head too clever design it just makes you say okay that's why it takes but if

3:07:51you don't know that why in the world would you ever on parent first why

3:07:54wouldn't you think as an apple customer I think it makes total customer comments

3:08:00sent that you adjusting about a new iPhone already have an iPod I'm gonna

3:08:04restore from a backup and then my new phone will be paired with my approach is

3:08:09that it that is what like you can totally see a bunch of people making

3:08:12that assumption totally reasonable and then if it's like popped up and said you

3:08:16know do you want to switch your Apple ID your Apple ID can only be paired

3:08:19one iPhone at a time would you like to switch to this new iPhone yes please

3:08:25okay and then you would expect that to maybe spend for a couple of seconds and

3:08:29then it would just work process it's you it's you know it's very much a 1.0

3:08:38process it isn't unfortunately with the phone and the the the sad part of this

3:08:44to me that the discouraged in part of this to me is that most of this rests on

3:08:50the parts of Apple's infrastructure that I think have the most problems usually

3:08:55it's like the the store infrastructure not even not not necessarily like all of

3:09:02I thought about like the the backup and purchases part of it i think is really

3:09:07unrelated to the purchase of them in this all goes back to the store I hit

3:09:10the store this like that hole in the structure seems like it has frequent

3:09:15problems and frequent bugs and and all this seems to rest on that and iTunes so

3:09:24I I actually don't have incredibly high hopes of improving it's it's it's always

3:09:31very complex you know the way the way apple designs things as you said that

3:09:35you know with with the privacy in mind and with the security that they do a lot

3:09:39of these things are impossible to make significantly better you know like a lot

3:09:43of it like you know you you can't just transfer protected in your credit card

3:09:46data because it doesn't you actually can't do it with security and designs

3:09:51they have a lot of this stuff works in ways like that where the answer is just

3:09:56well to make this better we would have to become Google and we're not going to

3:10:00do that so it's just not going to get better and like for example like the one

3:10:04that you mentioned a couple minutes ago I know I saw it at least one of the

3:10:07times I was upgrading the phone the last few weeks and other people have seen it

3:10:11is this loop seeming loop of requests for your iCloud password

3:10:19yeah and you know and and it it just seems like it's so indeterminate was I

3:10:24enter it wrong I often do any wrong because during the password on that

3:10:28little keyboard and now you see the bullets it's very easy to make a mistake

3:10:31to a lot I'm pretty sure I have no doubt I've now seen as about three or four

3:10:36times indeed various restores everything and I haven't done any sure it's related

3:10:39to to thank her authentication because what it seems like it's doing is

3:10:43something is checking for your password

3:10:45very early on activation while the white screen still up and it is before the

3:10:50two-factor authorization is is requested properly in that screen so you can type

3:10:55in the right credentials at Spelling Bee is lacking to factor I think you're

3:10:59wrong or at least there's a way to get into it without to factor because i dont

3:11:04have to factor because it ok I don't maybe I should but probably well I don't

3:11:10because it seems like two factors such a pain in the ass and I don't want to go

3:11:13through it with all these I founder editor but I don't have it turned on on

3:11:18on my want apple I D and I know that I've seen this loop where I think I must

3:11:24have entered the password Bronx keeps asking me and then I do it very very

3:11:27carefully painstaking character of a time

3:11:31character the time and it still does it and then I think what is it the same

3:11:34service is it like six different services are queued up to get my lady

3:11:39and they can't share it because they're so siloed within the system or is it a

3:11:45bug is it should I keep entering it that's the question is am I supposed to

3:11:49keep entering this or am I just going in a circle here we're never gonna stop us

3:11:54also see when I it when I enter in this loop in action then shows me a second

3:11:59I'll I saying authorization failed it is failing and then so I'll just keep

3:12:04hitting cancel cancel cancel the next few of them and it's like an infinite

3:12:07loop on JavaScript you just can't do it like hit cancel fast enough and unlike

3:12:11between boxes you can like it the next stage of the size of the screen like an

3:12:15extra and get past that and I'm really tight what I've seen this doesn't even

3:12:19tell you that it failed it just asks again as though it asking for the first

3:12:22time over and over and over again

3:12:24and usually helps to power down the phone and power back on

3:12:28or my go-to thing which works for a lot of these things is to sign out and sign

3:12:33back in which can be a huge pain in years because you lose all your contacts

3:12:40are gone if the way for them to receive down your photos you musically now in

3:12:44our hands tied in but anyway the whole process is good and i really think that

3:12:50they are improved and I were in my big concern is that may be at the executive

3:12:54level they've got people who said their phones up for him and so they don't see

3:12:57it in the navy he can hear the complaints but it's one of those things

3:13:02we're hearing that complain come on to captain hours big deal it's very

3:13:07different than if if they had to see it I just can't help but feel that if you

3:13:11know Tom Coker Phil Schiller Jony ive went through what I've gone through some

3:13:15of these new iPhones this year

3:13:16personally that they would be like this this this need to kick any ass somebody

3:13:22that's as good a place as any to end we've gone on long enough let me thank

3:13:32our sponsors often forget to listen to the show but I won't this time our

3:13:36sponsors this week fracture people who make the pictures include the internet

3:13:40you actually like just works there that the place where you can go to take care

3:13:47of your EHR and payroll stuff like that and lastly the broader group who make

3:13:53both an amazing utility for Mac called you bar and $750 really nice custom

3:14:01designed sapphire glass analog automatic watch which is really really worth

3:14:06looking at even if you're not gonna buy it thanks to them and Marco I thank you

3:14:11tremendously always have to thank you for the time you're very generous with

3:14:15it thanks yeah I would have on the show even for three hours