The Talk Show

132: ‘Peace, Porn, and Privacy’, With Guest Marco Arment

 

  I'm worried because I feel like when every run the show we always going by [TS]

  far the longest guests like my feeling we could go back if we ever need to do [TS]

  like a charity target on me and you would be over 12 hours and then this [TS]

  time we actually have a lot to talk so I'm a little concerned but well maybe [TS]

  not part of it did you hear we don't talk anymore that you got to me and that [TS]

  somehow it with the specifics are are kind of vague as to how how you got to [TS]

  me and what that means but somehow you got to me and we don't talk anymore [TS]

  has valuable said that have been further speculation though there were on the out [TS]

  oh my god I mean [TS]

  fortunately it's it's died down the last few days I think people are finally [TS]

  moved on from the peace saga which is good you know has a very short attention [TS]

  span and that that is both a blessing and a curse it is it is definitely a [TS]

  blessing when you are on the receiving end of it so that is nice but yeah I [TS]

  heard I i read and got emailed and heard lots of interesting theories about the [TS]

  conspiracy between you and I or that that you got to me or paid me off [TS]

  because people couldn't possibly believe that the story was what I said it was [TS]

  that I didn't want to be in this business after all so I exited it right [TS]

  you told this story on your podcast ATP [TS]

  what is now the last episode I'm guessing you coming out tomorrow but the [TS]

  today already out well I have no license so you can stop me of which are covered [TS]

  some stuff but last week said this already covered the peace then your more [TS]

  or less long very very long story very short is that what you were out as [TS]

  always is exactly the truth you you are one of the most almost painfully honest [TS]

  people I have ever met like when you you almost can't even bring yourself [TS]

  to tell like white lies you know I mean if you go through something like this [TS]

  and then you explain yourself in public during what you say is the honest to god [TS]

  truth so it's very funny that everybody would just assume that it could be [TS]

  something else and I depart the part of the story that is the best was that that [TS]

  you know people who listen ATP last week know this that you get it was last [TS]

  thursday was a Friday I don't know what day of the week it was but I was at the [TS]

  dentist was waiting to go and you texted me in your like I think I'm gonna pull [TS]

  piece from the App Store and I texted dude I don't do it don't be rash wait [TS]

  wait on out of the darkness and I got home and it was already pulled from the [TS]

  App Store and it was there I literally you did not you know poll a lot of [TS]

  people you kind of made it obviously you've made up your mind because you [TS]

  know I told you not to do it we will get to I will explain why I thought you [TS]

  shouldn't do it but it did amused me greatly though then afterwards when I [TS]

  did notice immediately afterwards there are an awful lot of people who assume [TS]

  that it was pressure from me [TS]

  somebody's somebody said that it was like that may include all showed up with [TS]

  baseball bat that I would love to see that it's especially fun because I was [TS]

  literally just hang out with you include all like four days earlier [TS]

  yeah it was also heard I really need to people I heard people people thought [TS]

  that Apple paid me off which is the funniest i think is like I was making [TS]

  money you know promoting their platform doing everything they wanted me to do it [TS]

  and it wasn't also it also wasn't one of those things like today [TS]

  view widgets right where they say okay now over here in this today's green on [TS]

  my website called it doesn't matter whatever you know what you can to get [TS]

  you can put a widget in there and when they first open this out there were [TS]

  people who made things that did things that were [TS]

  were creatively outside the purview of what they expected people to to make and [TS]

  then you know I think one of the ones it was an early victim of this was a peek [TS]

  out the calculator [TS]

  computation of that was more than they kind of I think they envisioned it is [TS]

  more just like a status [TS]

  the weather whatever and when people were actually doing real things over [TS]

  there [TS]

  Apple you know this isn't that it wasn't like they were breaking into wasn't [TS]

  using prove private API they were using a public API is in ways that Apple [TS]

  didn't vision for peace was not like late you you use of the content blocking [TS]

  abyei's in a way that they didn't envision it was almost like right down [TS]

  the middle [TS]

  the canonical this is exactly the sort of thing that they envisioned would be [TS]

  made [TS]

  yeah I mean I got a couple of responses here and there from inside of apple and [TS]

  they were all extremely positive they they did they definitely did not want to [TS]

  pull from the App Store as far as you know based on the implication that they [TS]

  would have hated it for some reason like I mean you know they're they're not very [TS]

  generous with their communication but it sure seemed like people and Apple are [TS]

  big fans of it and I pulled it and place the burden on them to try to issue of [TS]

  these refunds first manually and then eventually admitted that batch thing [TS]

  that could have been pleasant for them either [TS]

  and certainly could have been cheap to have to process refunds and and you know [TS]

  just the manpower alone of president's refunds was was going to be probably [TS]

  significant so yeah I hate to hear that Apple may be off to do all this was [TS]

  pretty entertaining I also heard that advertisers somehow paid me off I man [TS]

  and after sit at the top of the App Store paid after if that could have SAT [TS]

  there for like a month I don't know if anyone else would have been able to [TS]

  afford to pay for it it was it would have made a ton of money and that's you [TS]

  know that's assuming a lot of course but if we could have sex for awhile you know [TS]

  that would have been would have been a good amount of money but you know it's [TS]

  it's it would have thought that was it [TS]

  would have felt it would have felt like making a ton of money off of like drug [TS]

  dealer didn't it didn't feel right you know that was the whole point i'm [TS]

  looking right now actually have not been paying attention to see what is top that [TS]

  topped charts top aide is arrayed Tweetbot for today between bud yeah but [TS]

  number two is purify anything up there for a while and pure purify I forget [TS]

  what I think you have to look grossing didn't even register call candy candy [TS]

  crush yeah that's that's not there for a while I was at 11 pieces top data one [TS]

  full day of the majority was grossing that I think that number seventeen or [TS]

  eighteen for a little while not for the whole day but that was that was the [TS]

  pecan and it was able to fall down the grossing ranks pretty far while still [TS]

  being number one in the page are TV you know it the volumes are much lower [TS]

  obviously and paid but yeah it would mean any app that's gonna sit there [TS]

  anywhere like in the top 20 paid making really good money for a while so and I [TS]

  don't you know if other people want to go in there and make a ton of money [TS]

  making a bunkers that's fine like I'm willing and happy to yield that ground [TS]

  to other people that's why did you know it I got there [TS]

  realized I really didn't like being there and left yeah I actually haven't [TS]

  looked in a while it seems weird to me though I thought that there would be a [TS]

  couple of there but it looks like it's all down to purify now I don't see any [TS]

  of the others although maybe maybe they're on the free list in there I [TS]

  don't know which one to popular that there are a couple that would be popular [TS]

  for a while crystal and purify were neck and neck and then I think maybe here [TS]

  maybe crystals thing with the example adds that I mean that's a whole other [TS]

  drama that I don't really want to get into because I am NOT happily anymore [TS]

  but it that's the kind of thing where it just shows how incredibly messy and [TS]

  difficult this business is and it's a perfect example of why I don't want to [TS]

  be in it after all because it is just a very messy and very difficult as we [TS]

  record on Thursday October 1st crystal is all the way down 32 [TS]

  top paid and I guess it purifies number 22 obviously there's been some [TS]

  divergence there but you you you know and there is this weird self [TS]

  perpetuating this you know we've talked about this is so many different contexts [TS]

  ever since the App Store opened but once something is a top these charts it tends [TS]

  to stay there because one of the ways that people people here hey I hear [TS]

  there's odd blockers for iOS they go to the AppStore where do they go to the top [TS]

  chart they see one that looks reasonable to top of the charts and they got it and [TS]

  by that time then they get it [TS]

  purify works you know definitely does what it says on the 10th so then they're [TS]

  done you know they've just spent two or three bucks or whatever it costs on [TS]

  their thing and they're done and then none of the other two being a top is a [TS]

  huge advantage so you you know peace having started at the top I think [TS]

  there's a very good chance that it would still be there today if you maybe but [TS]

  the same time like you know right now you could see like purify has already [TS]

  fallen to number two you know we'll see you know how much it stays at the top of [TS]

  how much it falls over time I mean it's only been a couple of weeks and it's [TS]

  been a pretty short time so I don't even know if I would be able to be there for [TS]

  a month I don't even know if that would have happened you know there's no way to [TS]

  know and I don't matter like I also wonder how much this is going to be one [TS]

  of those things where it's not like sustained [TS]

  not that it's an unsustainable business could only get that much development [TS]

  work to keep it going but that let's say fifteen to twenty percent of Iowa's [TS]

  users might be interested in a content Booker well how soon until all of them [TS]

  already have one and then I'm not sure if it's gonna be a chart-topper [TS]

  in perpetuity and we tried speculating on that an ATP like like what percentage [TS]

  of Iowa's people are likely to actually install and critically enable an ad [TS]

  blocker and we came to about 10% being our estimate of people who would [TS]

  actually enable it also goes through the settings menu and diving safari settings [TS]

  actually turn it on in a in a convoluted so then the idea that a bloggers are [TS]

  going to all of a sudden ruin everyone's lives I i think is unlikely and probably [TS]

  exaggerated [TS]

  likely I don't think it's likely that it would be that much different than on the [TS]

  desktop and then the desktop I that I pulled the 15% from what i think is what [TS]

  people estimators the desktop number and obviously that changes [TS]

  changes a lot based on the audience you know I know Ars Technica [TS]

  is really really hit hard by that because their audiences is technically [TS]

  adept you know my site probably has to some extent just because at least [TS]

  there's a high percentage of people who read my saved who know what an ad [TS]

  blocker is in you know feel very very confident installing an extension it's [TS]

  also worth pointing out like you know there's a lot of people it's also worth [TS]

  pointing out that there's there's a lot of all those people who installed the ad [TS]

  blockers who are more likely to bloggers like like nerds who visit our site and [TS]

  your site how likely were they to click on the display ads to begin with you [TS]

  know a guy I bet the race I mean I've always kind of suspected that display [TS]

  ads on the internet are mostly supported by inadvertent accidental clicks or [TS]

  people who don't realize they're clicking on that you click who are [TS]

  misled into clicking on it by it looking like content or buy one of those like [TS]

  stupid story i'd like you know top 10 ways to lift your face up like all those [TS]

  crazy things like I always kind of suspected that the bulk of display [TS]

  advertising online was being click through and funded by accident or [TS]

  novices hurdle by ignorance in confusion [TS]

  yeah it's really a 10 I'm sure that I'm sure that all of it but I bet it's a lot [TS]

  more than both the advertisers on the publisher's would like to believe [TS]

  well it's it is truly a they they truly opened a Pandora's box [TS]

  way back in the nineties when they first started measuring clicks in first place [TS]

  and I i've link to this over the years numerous contexts talking about that but [TS]

  it's come back up again it it it is absolutely a case of be careful what you [TS]

  measure coming to buy them [TS]

  because at first when nobody was trying to gain system at all the idea of [TS]

  counting the actual clicks on the ad was amazing because nobody ever knew when [TS]

  you when you put an ad in a magazine you have a good gas that the circulation [TS]

  numbers are probably pretty accurate because they were you know industry [TS]

  standards in a maybe they tried to fight him a little bit for the most part it is [TS]

  so expensive to print magazines they couldn't be that far off but how many [TS]

  people actually read your ad of it on page 13 you know how many people skip [TS]

  right past it you know what what was the register to actually be able to measure [TS]

  it in a meaningful way [TS]

  TV commercials could never really be measured if there was no gaming if [TS]

  everybody was honest in world which is probably the biggest stupidest if I've [TS]

  ever put forward counting the clicks on ads would be great and it it did at [TS]

  first web advertising was super super expensive per customer [TS]

  you know everyone a measure that because it could be measured but then as soon as [TS]

  people could you know as soon as it started working people immediately [TS]

  started gaming it in various ways so it's you know once and once they started [TS]

  going down that path it was and still is to this day the fact that they try to [TS]

  measure then you have all these problems with click fraud and botnets doing click [TS]

  fraud and all this stuff it's it's a whole world of people trying to beat [TS]

  each other off it's just disgusting to me that's one of the reasons why I do [TS]

  wanna be in business after all just it's just it's just a dirty messy world at a [TS]

  fundamental level the way I view advertising is even online is that it [TS]

  fundamentally no different than advertising in print or on TV and in [TS]

  which is to say that it is primarily about awareness making people aware [TS]

  maybe people who've never heard of your product making them aware of that for [TS]

  the first time or if they have heard of it [TS]

  reinforcing it with your brand [TS]

  you know you know if it's some kind of visual ad [TS]

  or with some kind of message about it like for example like the ads I'll be [TS]

  reading during this podcast where you're not seeing anything but you can hear [TS]

  these talking points here's what they wanted to know about it so that you have [TS]

  it in your head so that if you need a new mattress you can think what about [TS]

  that one of these podcasts are talking about or something like that just saw it [TS]

  in your head [TS]

  awareness the fact that online ad can actually lead to engagement quicker [TS]

  meaning you know you can just click on an ad and go and you're already at the [TS]

  field notes website and you can't buy the notebook writer that that's great [TS]

  but that should just be you know anybody who's deciding how much to spend on line [TS]

  vs printer on TV that should just be icing on the cake it's still should [TS]

  primarily be look if we put an ad on this website we think we can expect a [TS]

  hundred thousand people will see it and we roughly know that there you know the [TS]

  demographics are like this that's really all that they should be looking at but [TS]

  the fact that they think that they can identify people will spend this money [TS]

  and it'll only go to people who searched in Google Maps for an oil change in the [TS]

  last 25 days it's just crazy and it leads to all sorts of sickness and all [TS]

  sorts of really creepy and perverse incentives and behavior like it's it's [TS]

  one of those worlds where anybody who who is kind of privacy in and sensibly [TS]

  minded or anybody who has really strong ethics i think is often driven out of [TS]

  business like it they won't do it someone else will you guys on ATP days [TS]

  compared it to the industry and I think you guys kind of backed away from [TS]

  because it's almost like wow that's really strong commitment but I actually [TS]

  think it's actually really I think that's not a bad comparison at all [TS]

  in terms of its not remove any judgment of whether the existence of pornography [TS]

  in and of itself has any sort of moral you know it's just that you end up in [TS]

  programming in doing things that are you know whoever is implementing it is [TS]

  unhealthy right you know if it's some kind of paper thing for porno you your [TS]

  you know that their their setup and somebody had to program the system that [TS]

  enables somebody who's got like an addiction to the stuff to just keep [TS]

  spending as much money as they can [TS]

  that's you know that is absolutely immoral and you there's somebody feels [TS]

  really guilty about that or somebody who wrote that code just doesn't have a [TS]

  moral compass that point that way a lot of this stuff the programmatic stuff and [TS]

  advertising is it down that path you know it's maybe not quite as far but [TS]

  it's pretty pretty bad you know that you're doing things that you know that [TS]

  the user isn't happy about that isn't good for them and that they wouldn't [TS]

  want to know exactly what's going on and one of the problems that that you know [TS]

  if so that's the side of the advertiser the side of the ad blocker of like the [TS]

  person or company making and running the ad blocker itself that faces an [TS]

  interesting dilemma where and I think you see this playing out with us [TS]

  glad things with a buck plus and crystal on the controversy stirred up the end [TS]

  and some things you said about the Deccan everything I have had their [TS]

  privacy policy everything on whether in a question of whether the deck should be [TS]

  should count as an ever-present should be blocked one of the problems here I [TS]

  faces with Instapaper back forever ago i fix the problem that what people [TS]

  actually wanted was to get the articles without ever hearing the ads will even [TS]

  once they wanted me to go out and scrape new articles for them they'd never seen [TS]

  before and show them immediately in the in the ad strip TextView like that's [TS]

  what people actually want [TS]

  and what's actually healthy for publishers and for the world i'm for me [TS]

  legally was not to do things like that it was to say you know ok well im gonna [TS]

  say things you have viewed in your web browser that's that's different and it [TS]

  was it was always a really tricky balance because the the user base [TS]

  the customer the market was pushing me to go over that line and I would always [TS]

  try to hold back a little bit but not all my competitors didn't hurt me and I [TS]

  think in the ad blocker industry I think you're going to see the same thing which [TS]

  is you know we can talk all we want about how you well I also wanted to [TS]

  compare that kind of to piracy and it's not these aren't great comparison so [TS]

  please email us but you know if it's it has some overlap is is what I will say [TS]

  about that and in a sense that like you know making a blocker is kind of like [TS]

  making money from piracy it's like well people are going to pay me to hi [TS]

  everyone else's ads and I can say well I can justify it with reasons XYZ [TS]

  manufacturer perfectly valid things like security tracking etc [TS]

  those are all very valid reasons but if I made a blocker that only blocked [TS]

  tracking and still showed ads nobody would want it because what people [TS]

  actually want is to block all the ads and all the tracking and the and the [TS]

  security in the creepiness those are all convenient justifications for them just [TS]

  like when ppl Pirates deficit well it wasn't available in my country at or [TS]

  wasn't available without DRM in the form I wanted on the box I wanna play it on [TS]

  whatever people can read all sorts of reasons for piracy while also knowing [TS]

  yet also kinda not right and so a desk at our son but a blocking when it when I [TS]

  quit was like I could rationalize a whole bunch of reasons why this needs to [TS]

  exist and why I might even wants to run by which I do it I still run gostaria my [TS]

  computer and I still run I'm switching between various blockers on the phone [TS]

  trying to find a good one and only one blogger you know people people were [TS]

  actually his reasons but to be the person making it an enabling this and [TS]

  making money from it even if it puts on a different level and there's always [TS]

  going to be a tension between you know trying to make it seems [TS]

  morally acceptable but also the reality of what the market really wants is to [TS]

  get everything for free and not see any ads ever and no matter what they say if [TS]

  they if they say it's all about something else it's all about tracking [TS]

  whenever some people are honest about that most are most people just want to [TS]

  block all the ads I disagree I really do disagree I think there's definitely some [TS]

  subset of people who really do want to block that really do you know sort of [TS]

  the ones that there's even a magazine called for like an anti advertising [TS]

  magazine reports no no no used to sell it at Whole Foods but they don't pay [TS]

  more but it's it'll come to me for like you guys have people who are opposed to [TS]

  advertising in general not just online advertising but who actually are [TS]

  Crusaders about you know that that advertising is a perverse force on on [TS]

  our society in 1902 before effect cases there are some cases where it is you [TS]

  know you know the cigarette companies and the address you know the way that [TS]

  they've been legislation has been passed that you really can't advertise anymore [TS]

  and that when they used to be able to they really did you could prove it that [TS]

  they they they targeted their ads to children [TS]

  famously the joe camel cartoon mascot for camel cigarettes was different polls [TS]

  are they would go in and you know talk to kindergarteners and they're amazing [TS]

  amazing brand awareness in kindergarten age kids of the mascot for a cigarette [TS]

  company that's really sick and it was an accident it was actually play it so [TS]

  there's an example there are people who kind of feel that way about all that [TS]

  and and maybe it's not even the messaging there's others who are clearly [TS]

  online who really care about every single byte of data every bite somebody [TS]

  pointed out to me for example and and daring fireball in the deck the deck ads [TS]

  are so small compared to online ad you know in general but because during [TS]

  fireball has almost no images oftentimes has no images other than like the logo [TS]

  on the homepage the deck actually comprises a significant portion of the [TS]

  average page view especially if you don't even look at the whole home page [TS]

  where there is a whole big wall attacks but if you just go to like an individual [TS]

  short entry significant portion maybe even a majority portion of the bites [TS]

  that get downloaded on the page you go to the at [TS]

  I think looking at that as a percentage is kind of unfair just because of the [TS]

  design of don't fireball but if you really want to look at it that way [TS]

  ok fine I say go ahead block yet you know but I don't have a lot of people [TS]

  feel that way I think people think that opening people's eyes with this with the [TS]

  with content blocking are the Foreman's numbers that people are see ya I think [TS]

  when I see people whose eyes have been opened by like some of the stuff like [TS]

  that then Brooks has been publishing when he's you know doing the yeoman's [TS]

  work of testing all these things and the New York Times published it in today [TS]

  where they they tested a bunch of sites without blockers and when you see that [TS]

  you can save thirty seconds on a mobile page you when you go to boston.com by [TS]

  having an ad blocker and only has about blocking ads its I just want I want that [TS]

  speed increase [TS]

  yeah and that's that's certainly a major part of it that is a major justification [TS]

  and a major motivator especially in Moberly on desktop it was it was easier [TS]

  to get wasteful and kind of ignore it but I mobile it matters more mobile also [TS]

  screen space matters more to add that would come in and take over a massive [TS]

  chunk of the screen or do these stupid overlays or break when you zoomed in so [TS]

  many bad things out there but it's a major motivator but I think it comes [TS]

  down to like if you ask people would you rather see this thing with ads or with [TS]

  no [TS]

  ads they would choose no ads every time you know some exceptions like you know [TS]

  like certain magazines like the ads are kind of the point but for the most part [TS]

  most content I think people if people are given the option to take it with no [TS]

  ads they would take that option [TS]

  assume the cost was equal in both free and so what you have in the AM [TS]

  businesses this kind of tension is this kind of balanced tension will usually [TS]

  it's balanced where the people really want the stuff for free and they don't [TS]

  want to pay that they don't want to pay for it and i also dont wanna see ads and [TS]

  the publishers as you know they obviously can't operate for free so they [TS]

  say alright well look kind of reach this equilibrium like okay well we're gonna [TS]

  show ads and most of your going to tolerate them and you're going to [TS]

  tolerate it because you don't want to pay us and it's kind of okay and for the [TS]

  most part both sides that usually it this it's this at this relationship of [TS]

  tolerating you not actually wanting the ads are enjoying the ads you know most [TS]

  people if given the choice again they would they would say well I don't have [TS]

  to see the ads that don't show them to me or don't waste my time with them so [TS]

  it's always this kind of tension and in in the in the grand scheme of things I [TS]

  think people do like free content better than they like payroll stuff so [TS]

  ultimately I think I think this is a necessary evil like it's and obviously [TS]

  this is usually no but it is a necessary compromise of of how how content is [TS]

  viewed and paid for and everything and you know i i run the deck out of my [TS]

  sight I run outta my podcast just like you do on here and that's those are both [TS]

  choices where it's like you know I also you know I I would love to do an ad free [TS]

  podcast for people just paid us but that would make a lot less money and a lot [TS]

  less people and you know if you put up a wall up in front of a podcast that is [TS]

  just death like nobody listens so it's it's really it's it's never a great [TS]

  relationship it's never perfect you know it's never really what all sides want [TS]

  but if this compromise at all sides have reached most of the time and anything [TS]

  you do throw that out of balance [TS]

  like making the ads are really obnoxious or really creepy early over-reaching are [TS]

  really slow have other major problems there's gonna be pushed back from that [TS]

  but the basic the basic notion of you i'ma show you had your going to tolerate [TS]

  them it's there it's a little bit uncomfortable even from the start you [TS]

  know and it's I've always I've always kind of felt mildly irritated by the [TS]

  fact that I make my living on ads because I don't like ads you know but I [TS]

  think this is the best solution we have given all the variables I think that's [TS]

  where the comparisons piracy works as I've always seen piracy as a negotiation [TS]

  it is you know somebody that if they're pirating and a poor game there did you [TS]

  know that makes the game is saying there's a new game for your PC its $40 [TS]

  and the person who Pirates instead of paying for the same note $0 and it's [TS]

  some point and I know that you know with piracy there are absolute . die hard and [TS]

  there are people you know did I i when I was in college I pirated all sorts of [TS]

  stuff and it wasn't wasn't like if Adobe head a have the price of photoshop I was [TS]

  gonna pay for it instead of pirating it I realize that but you know for some [TS]

  things at some point and i think that that was the key to the iTunes Music [TS]

  Store making online music success is that they they were saying here's a [TS]

  better deal we will have all the music you'll get your album art and all have [TS]

  good metadata right there you'll you'll be sure of the quality and it's a fair [TS]

  price $0.99 and did it stop music piracy no definitely not but it definitely [TS]

  turns some people who might have otherwise or previously been using [TS]

  Napster or you know whatever the you know the stuff that came after Napster [TS]

  was to instead to say you know what I'll just buy it from iTunes it's a [TS]

  negotiation i think what you see and it's the same thing with a lot of piracy [TS]

  and you see it with entertainment industry [TS]

  the way they approach movies and stuff like that and and music and games [TS]

  software and I think it's very true with the advertising industry is that the [TS]

  industry the publishers and advertisers for the entertainment companies they [TS]

  don't see it as a negotiation they see this as a problem that could be solved [TS]

  so that they can do whatever they want and they are the people will just take [TS]

  it [TS]

  weekend we can show you whenever online ad we want and you'll just suck it up at [TS]

  that and that there's some you know I'm sure that there's a whole bunch of [TS]

  people who are if they're looking at Wow our mobile numbers are down this month [TS]

  you know the Silas content blocking thing is totally real you can't see it [TS]

  here you know five six seven percent down you know over where we were before [TS]

  this came out you know that there's people wrote right now who's there who [TS]

  are thinking or who are demanding of their engineering teams find a way [TS]

  around this [TS]

  not not like how do we you know how do we start selling ads that people don't [TS]

  want to block its how do we defeat the content partners and you know I think [TS]

  that's the right attitude that's not that's not gonna win exactly so only on [TS]

  the other side when they make new kinds of ads then the ad blocker people are [TS]

  gonna say well now we need to block this new kind of like the neither side is [TS]

  willing to agree to the other side's terms here like the the advertiser is [TS]

  not going to say well I guess we better stop publishing ads because nobody likes [TS]

  ads and the ad blockers are gonna say well you know what that ad is fine we're [TS]

  going to win because if they do the user revolt and they go to something else so [TS]

  I don't know what the ultimate solution is but it's absolutely some form of [TS]

  having a basic respect for the user and for your product and I've been saying [TS]

  the following four years as well as to me as somebody who's always been sort of [TS]

  obsessed by publishing [TS]

  and advertising and graphic design branding and things like this whether [TS]

  it's you know print TV or online [TS]

  it has always been right from the very get-go has always been very clear to me [TS]

  that the traditional companies either from TV or from print when they went [TS]

  online by and large they had very little to no respect for the web they either [TS]

  treated it as like at some point I had to stop treating it as as maybe a fad [TS]

  but clearly at the beginning a lot of thought maybe this is a bad and they [TS]

  never ever treated with the respect that they treat their main products you know [TS]

  they would never put popup that actually covered the actors faces faces on a TV [TS]

  show about you know even when they put they do some substance doorknobs me on [TS]

  TV where they put little things about the bottom of the screen but they don't [TS]

  do something that covers the actual content of the show while the show is [TS]

  playing magazines don't allow advertisers to make add that like he [TS]

  pages are getting worse every year with you now that print is getting desperate [TS]

  date it might be out of desperation but certainly while they were profitable [TS]

  they wouldn't do it they wouldn't make you like let's say a popular paid like [TS]

  the op-ed page in the new york times they weren't going to see all that with [TS]

  some kind of tape so that you have to sit there and spent thirty seconds [TS]

  looking at the whatever logo is on the tape while you carefully cut across it [TS]

  to do it but they've treated online at like that all along time I really do I'm [TS]

  gonna go back and I'm gonna tell you I i feel like i have to explain why I [TS]

  thought you shouldn't have taken peace out of the store and at the time I [TS]

  didn't realize that having read your piece [TS]

  your article explaining it I would have said ok you're right if that's what you [TS]

  feel then just get out I didn't know when you called me I didn't know what [TS]

  you were thinking the problem I think the idea of [TS]

  once it was out and when she saw that there was controversy to be had an [TS]

  argument to be made and that it was going to be a nonstop never never ending [TS]

  slog of what deserves to be blocked and what doesn't [TS]

  the realization that he didn't want to be in this business was you know i think [TS]

  is the recall I didn't know that I also think that this is why you're still [TS]

  getting shit from people I have seen this where there are people who you know [TS]

  lol how could you build contemp locker all summer long and not imagine what it [TS]

  was like to have a contemp locker I can imagine that very easily that you didn't [TS]

  really think about it I thought your explanation [TS]

  here's a cool API I'd like to build one myself I like to build things so I'll [TS]

  build it and they don't think pass exactly that was that was really it's [TS]

  like I said although none ATP it's like all summer long I was focused on how to [TS]

  make a really cool app using the stuff and I i was not focusing on what will [TS]

  actually be like if I make this cool app succeed and become a major person [TS]

  influential in this business and having everyone look at me this way and I [TS]

  didn't think about that you know I should have but I was naive and I i want [TS]

  to do the cool thing where I make the cool app and then you know I didn't you [TS]

  know it didn't matter what the app did I just how I want I had to school app idea [TS]

  and I i tried it and it worked really well and so I I was motivated to keep [TS]

  going with it and it just didn't think about you know what would happen and I [TS]

  mean a lot about this is a lot of the a lot of the frustration and anger that I [TS]

  received over it from other people is really about like you know they they [TS]

  just can't believe that there's that I got to that position and that I give it [TS]

  up for very that's one of the reasons you know one of the other reasons is [TS]

  like how do you walk away from all that money and it's you know it's like 10 [TS]

  money isn't everything I felt bad about etcetera [TS]

  and I mean just once I decided to to take it up the store and and I i just [TS]

  when I had it once I decided that I'd like you said you were the dentist it [TS]

  was the the moment I decided I should stop the store is a temp there in the [TS]

  morning it was down by 12:30 it was it was like two hours like all I had to do [TS]

  was I i talked it over with my wife i ran up by you and identify the good [TS]

  people to make sure that I even could do without breaking the contract and and [TS]

  that then that they were going to be mad about it and that was it you know what I [TS]

  want to do the same time like as soon as I even had the idea to do it I felt a [TS]

  million has better like a giant weight off my shoulders and that night when I [TS]

  was working on overcast again for the first time in a couple of weeks [TS]

  felt so good because overcast will probably not make in its entire next [TS]

  year what peace could make in two or three days but so much better about it [TS]

  you know you and I have talked about this that one of the things some people [TS]

  have a very hard time believing that anybody obviously I don't think [TS]

  everybody thinks is wearing a majority but there are clearly some people who [TS]

  cannot get it through their head that pure money is not a primary motivating [TS]

  factor for us it's great I am successful right now and I do appreciate that and [TS]

  it's important to me because I have a family and so it is certainly a [TS]

  significant motivator and it is a very high priority for me but it's not number [TS]

  one and maximizing it getting every single dollar that I can absolutely [TS]

  positively is not a number a motivator for me is professionally is doing good [TS]

  work that I'm proud of [TS]

  and number two is probably like just what I feel like the overall quality of [TS]

  my life and my happy money obviously plays a factor in that but you know [TS]

  making the most money possible definitely doesn't write and I are both [TS]

  fortunate that you and I have made enough money and and make make enough [TS]

  money through other means that like we can say no to things that don't feel [TS]

  right to us and and you know there's there's all these days don't like you [TS]

  know every there there's a threshold for everybody and it's surprisingly low [TS]

  where additional money that you make above that threshold doesn't really make [TS]

  you happier you know so there is this concept of like what is enough and in [TS]

  most cultures that aren't american's that number is way lower even americans [TS]

  have you know this concept of what is enough [TS]

  beyond which it stops really added to your happiness and in a proportional way [TS]

  and I've heard estimates of the number being as low as like $75,000 a year [TS]

  which you know in this offer businesses is a pretty mid-range too low salary so [TS]

  it's pretty for people who are likely to the show it's not that hard to achieve [TS]

  that it is not unheard of in the event that you that you know if you already [TS]

  make a six-figure salary and you know the idea that you could turn away money [TS]

  from something that you that makes you feel terrible that actually there's a [TS]

  lot of like widespread you know surveys and and psychology and up to back that [TS]

  up where it actually is plausible to do an effect people do it frequently think [TS]

  that you know once once you once you've reached a certain level of income you [TS]

  don't just have to say yes to everything and in fact if you do and a lot of [TS]

  people choose poorly on that scale and say yes to everything and are miserable [TS]

  for it and I don't necessarily realize that like you know they don't have to do [TS]

  that there's a lot of people who you know people who do it not just because [TS]

  they're well off enough and they can keep their life so people who downgrade [TS]

  their lifestyle [TS]

  and delighted by it you know somebody who is just killing themselves in a [TS]

  corporate attorney job you know hundred some hours a week doing this my num in [TS]

  work and then they leave and become you know a teacher or something you know you [TS]

  take a job with it has a much shorter commute away closest to your house even [TS]

  if it pays less than the job that all the way in the city [TS]

  your way happier taking the job at a shorter commute and you're you're able [TS]

  to rationally say yes I can turn down the extra money for the job in the city [TS]

  because I will be way happier and probably healthier and probably have a [TS]

  better family life if I if I choose us right at the same kind of thing it all [TS]

  plays out there somebody who leaves six-figure engineering job at Apple or [TS]

  any of the big companies out there and it just opened up their own coffee shop [TS]

  which is an indoor in opening up a restaurant notoriously low margin [TS]

  difficult business to be in but that all they've ever wanted to do is raise their [TS]

  own coffee and make a cool place you know where people can you know if that's [TS]

  what you wanna do i mean there could be so much happier and you're making way [TS]

  less money [TS]

  way less but anyway that's its people don't think I'll give you a concrete [TS]

  example of money that I have passed up and it's I don't think it's a thing it [TS]

  certainly wasn't sustainable in Google's search algorithm got around it but at [TS]

  some point in the late last decade I would have guessed the summer of 2008 [TS]

  2010 or so it was non-stop Virage every week where I got offers from people to [TS]

  place text ads on their enviable text thing either they wanted on the homepage [TS]

  or it would be some specific page that ranked highly for certain keyword posted [TS]

  I'd written and they would offer thousands of dollars I mean I remember [TS]

  one time it was it was a guy and I actually pursued it now because I [TS]

  thought I would take it but i wanna see something $20,000 for [TS]

  couple of months and it just seemed like such a large amount of money but i just [TS]

  want to see is this is this is because if I don't get the money I'm gonna take [TS]

  the texture down and it's you know it's the Google index it wants [TS]

  I can't be because this is an article like let's say your old article if they [TS]

  think that there's value to be gained by putting a text there now they must know [TS]

  that Google Reader indexes these pages and so therefore they must know that if [TS]

  I'd take the text ad down it'll rien texan they won't have that Google juice [TS]

  you know and I just research the company and it really see my yes this is a [TS]

  company that pays publishers tens of thousands of dollars to place these [TS]

  texts at and then you could do things they don't even care all they cared [TS]

  about was the search engines and you you could do things like use CSS to make it [TS]

  just plain 9446 position at 4000 pixels off-screen whatever you want to didn't [TS]

  care so it wasn't like anybody would know wasn't like anybody would see it [TS]

  but it was thousands of dollars from just nonstop for years and I say no to [TS]

  all of them or or or the other thing I would do is I would write back and they [TS]

  would be like what David they were a lot of them would say what is what would you [TS]

  want how much would you want for me to put a text ad page and I would write [TS]

  back [TS]

  $100,000 and then they would say that's too much do you know you're looking at [TS]

  like Alexa numbers or something [TS]

  traffic but before I got to like ridiculous numbers like that i would [TS]

  offer I remember I would write back as a joke and just say like $10,000 they'd be [TS]

  like about seven times that you've got this obscene number that they would [TS]

  laugh at and they're actually I guess it's pretty close actually felt we could [TS]

  do that now these are ads that were in all they wanted was the text all they [TS]

  wanted to do is trick Google and other search indexes there was no major [TS]

  industry for a while I think I think it's finally probably die down as Google [TS]

  that smarter but major interstate was a major industry in the money was truly [TS]

  significant i mean [TS]

  I know what I could have if I'd pursued it but easily tens of thousands a month [TS]

  I read those like I bet the market had like a hundred visitors a month I ran [TS]

  those from a company called text link ads like texting out of hyping it and I [TS]

  was a company name and they might even still be around nine times I don't think [TS]

  I think text link ads word I think that in particular they were they weren't so [TS]

  skinny they they would vary so it was very similar you embedded this PHP thing [TS]

  I remember I even I [TS]

  I was still very new to PHP the time but I even modified the code to add nofollow [TS]

  to the links I think that eventually get me kicked out but because I I was aware [TS]

  of what they were doing and other well you know I'm gonna add nofollow because [TS]

  that's the that's the right thing to do and they didn't have an explicit rule [TS]

  against that I could find at the time I wrote that this wasn't doing any [TS]

  tracking it wasn't going to mean literally just HTML so wasn't even going [TS]

  to have any measurable effect on downloads eyes were talking about not [TS]

  even kilobyte bites actual just extra bytes would if it loaded synchronously [TS]

  what you would have had to do what they want with Google it would block the [TS]

  pageload wallet on your server side I don't even think I think they just [TS]

  wanted me to actually just paste paste this little snippet of HTML the article [TS]

  it wasn't even dynamic a dynamic now I think that there were some services like [TS]

  text link ads were was dynamic as they wanted to get used to feel these offers [TS]

  from people who just wanted to buy a month of you know just put this snippet [TS]

  of HTML and this article for a month and no significant money and I didn't do it [TS]

  I turned it down because just felt gross and it just ended and I didn't need it I [TS]

  do have to admit the whole RSS sponsorship thing at this point was [TS]

  taking off and it was doing well in the deck was you know I was already in the [TS]

  deck so I didn't need it I was already at the point where I could say don't [TS]

  fireball is supporting my family I don't need to pile this on with things I'm not [TS]

  proud of and exactly you know so I didn't [TS]

  but there are you know there's other examples I i feel that offers from [TS]

  people like you know other ad networks [TS]

  effectively I would have adequate the Deccan go to them who offered me way [TS]

  more than the deck you know has ever paid me per month and you know I just [TS]

  said no to all of them because I just dancing around switching ad networks [TS]

  going to the highest bidder and look in their ad obviously they were did just [TS]

  weren't they weren't little nice static ads like the tech they were big and ugly [TS]

  the standard IAB big red yeah I mean the idea of looking like the decades of [TS]

  amazing lock-in because once you once you are accustomed to the way your own [TS]

  site looks with the deck and once your readers are accustomed to a your site [TS]

  look at the DEC [TS]

  just imagine what your site would look like with his with the giant a [TS]

  skyscraper at the sidebar they regularly like a big white like that would look [TS]

  horrendous [TS]

  it wouldn't look like your site at all it would look like if you were like on [TS]

  some crazy why fight it was like injecting ads in a prepared you visit [TS]

  like it would look like a scam or malware had taken over something it [TS]

  would you wouldn't you would never say oh it's very possible its normal like [TS]

  that just goes to show I think like the different worlds that that are possible [TS]

  here in the advertising space like you have you know fully native stuff like [TS]

  urs sponsorships that an hour into doing the podcast you then you have like the [TS]

  very very subtle modeling with the deck does and you have everything else [TS]

  giant horrible things and and i i do think but I certainly that it wasn't [TS]

  like the other ones that would come to me we're offering me it would be 25 [TS]

  percent more than the democrats thirty was it like a percentage more it was a [TS]

  factor of three four five times more like five times more than what I was [TS]

  making from the deck was significant money the way I always chalked it up and [TS]

  i na me completely support me on this is that to me the money that I was leaving [TS]

  on the table by not using this ad was effectively in investing in the brand [TS]

  during Bible yeah that's totally right and your site has always had that look [TS]

  so easy even even in the age now where you [TS]

  you might wanna consider Mobile layout and bigger font someday maybe but you [TS]

  know you as always and that definitely does have a definite it definitely does [TS]

  contribute it makes your site look higher class more valuable certainly [TS]

  it's much more pleasant to read as long as you hit the + button a few times on [TS]

  the keyboard it is it is very very much contributes you know if you go to slash [TS]

  perhaps you'll get a little bit actually they used to be multiple press which [TS]

  devices and set to sync iCloud a doubt it but he doesn't know that you know [TS]

  during fireball that / press and you can set the font size and it'll save you [TS]

  know maybe maybe I should get to use some time and make you finally update [TS]

  responsibly keeping you know what the right not to its we can keep on as I [TS]

  wanted but one of the things if I do even when I do I want to change it once [TS]

  I want to change the layout today on fireball wants and then have at last at [TS]

  least another 15 to 20 years no pressure [TS]

  well the last design you know has gone close to change it like 2003 or 2004 [TS]

  there was an early days ago for the first year during fireballs a slightly [TS]

  different designs so eleven years ago someone that goes for 15 n may be the [TS]

  only to tweak it like I have this one you know here and there suddenly over [TS]

  the years but you know I want to do it once but to do it once I think it would [TS]

  require web funds and I've progressing in four years on web points because I [TS]

  just can't get over the fact that to me they feel slow and one of the things [TS]

  that I really love about how fast it's one of my favorite things I get from [TS]

  people from emails or tweets or something like that every once in a [TS]

  while [TS]

  during fire but does go down or if there's like DNS outage on the net which [TS]

  makes really weird things and it's like some people like people say hey is [TS]

  durable down and I check and it's definitely not down it's right there [TS]

  really fast but I keep I get like three or four of these it's usually like a DNS [TS]

  problem and people who are somewhere on some chunk of the internet can't get [TS]

  there and when people say the following me always makes my day they say during [TS]

  fire bodies in just one of my favorite site it's also the thing I always go to [TS]

  what I want to check my internet connection yet but they expect that it's [TS]

  always up and expected to load against him and websites definitely changed so [TS]

  I've put off you know and and that's funny because with the country bloggers [TS]

  a lot of them have an option to block web funds specifically just just to make [TS]

  things faster not because anybody is really opposed to nobody's supposed to [TS]

  good-looking font and nobody's opposed to nice design but people some people [TS]

  favor faster page loads over you know I mean I was I was doing that in the early [TS]

  built a piece that was like one of the very first things I built was i dont [TS]

  wanna bought all third-party JavaScript which was insane but worked and and I [TS]

  and it had an option to block all of us and it broke my site a lot of other [TS]

  sites but it was complex faster it was a massive speed difference and so now like [TS]

  as much as I love the this wonderful J ideal Sans font that I use on my site [TS]

  and you know as far as I know like I see a couple of benchmarks here in there [TS]

  that suggests that the FDA web fonts are not as fast as type it but either way [TS]

  neither none of them are what I would call fast enough you know if they're [TS]

  you're still loading a few hundred kilobytes of funds for most people that [TS]

  you know and it's from some other CDN that is off off host so it's like making [TS]

  other connection everything and another opportunity for weird latency or DNS [TS]

  issues and the fact is web fonts are really nice they're they're very much [TS]

  like a nice to her [TS]

  have but if they're gonna come at a big cost they're probably not worth it for [TS]

  most sites and what I found when I like it when I would have been browsing with [TS]

  with weapons disabled on my phone for for a while now and even with coaster on [TS]

  the desktop I would I would turn off type get their tractors that they can [TS]

  block a couple months to and you really don't miss much like it's you know you [TS]

  you can tell on certain sites were like they didn't have a good fallback so the [TS]

  default by Times New Roman you can you can tell us what it's supposed to look [TS]

  like times but for the most part things load really fast and nothing looks that [TS]

  bad and many times it looks pretty good at fall back to something sensible so [TS]

  you know i i would say it if if I realize I'm eyesight anytime soon I [TS]

  would almost certainly go back to a regular system fun and not use that just [TS]

  isn't worth it and that being said in in defense of your ancient site design I [TS]

  will say that that a couple months ago I I decided to to be a smart ass and to [TS]

  try to try to like just write like 10 lines of CSS or whatever that I could [TS]

  just like text you and have you inject you in your template here's your freakin [TS]

  responsive layout here like here just modernize your site with this little [TS]

  thing I get wrote in an hour so that was my plan is gonna do this and I try I [TS]

  started and your site a surprisingly complex I I tried doing that and I [TS]

  realized it was going to be way more work then than what I had planned for [TS]

  this is a common theme with me way more work and as I can now understand why you [TS]

  haven't done this [TS]

  yeah that's a pretty well I mean it's been so long that I don't know but you [TS]

  probably started at like 10 times yeah thats bring back stories there but it [TS]

  will happen sooner or later but yeah there's no way to just take the current [TS]

  HTML and easily do it i mean you can make a new one that looks that a wide [TS]

  screen looks the same but the way that everything is structured right now is [TS]

  actually sort of [TS]

  fight against responsible but the worst thing that ever happened was the fact [TS]

  that with a very little a very short amount of think it's just like that one [TS]

  viewport meta tag and the fact that a double tap on the main text column is [TS]

  pretty good and has been since the original iPhone in 2007 I mean like two [TS]

  lines of code in 2007 made it easy did the double tap on the center column of [TS]

  text inhabit reasonably good size and a pretty good with its not nice and fixed [TS]

  used you can still slide around sideways when you scroll but it's actually pretty [TS]

  good for you know run on mobile optimized layout and that's probably the [TS]

  worst thing that ever happened because if it had been terrible on iPhone I [TS]

  would have done something in 2007 or 2008 yeah I mean and that's i mean your [TS]

  site works the way every site work in [TS]

  this was the problem that I created Instapaper to solve like it one of the [TS]

  problems is like I didn't want to keep zooming in on everyone's pages and then [TS]

  like I would say girls girls girls I was reading actually get misaligned a little [TS]

  bit so I decide and let me try to realign back to the center column never [TS]

  quite get it right happens all the time you know just pretend to believe that [TS]

  and I i talked to people about a year ago at this like I think if I was [TS]

  designing Instapaper from scratch today is designing a thing that would solve [TS]

  this problem from scratch today I don't think I would do the TextView I think I [TS]

  would just save it was there on the page like the fully because responsive design [TS]

  and modern sensible design on most of the house but I want to read and [TS]

  especially now with content blockers existing if there is a way to look into [TS]

  that Hannah system responsive design really solved the problem pretty well [TS]

  most of the time like these like back in 2007 2008 when I was designing [TS]

  Instapaper at first the TextView was necessary because no sites had mobile [TS]

  layouts responsive design didn't even exist yet they get the respect wasn't [TS]

  even there the media queries I don't think even existed back either supported [TS]

  so that you could [TS]

  do responsive as high back then but that has really removed a lot of the need for [TS]

  things like Instapaper text you and safaris read review prior to the iPhone [TS]

  the only thing that has ever been done in web standards for mobile work [TS]

  completely different sites wow I guess was the big 10 WA p.m. you know what it [TS]

  stood for but it was so that the devices pre iPhone were so primitive [TS]

  computationally displays are so small that it wasn't even feasible nobody even [TS]

  really considered how would we make a dynamic layout that you could just have [TS]

  one URL one web page and it would look this way on the big monitor this way on [TS]

  a smaller monitor in this way on it on a tiny little nobody even thought about [TS]

  that and that's why we still have sites today they have like mobile . [TS]

  URLs in the diary direct well and Dan that's a little different diseases like [TS]

  type site but still there but anyway let me take a break here I got to thank our [TS]

  first point is a good one so so don't skip ahead this is gonna be a good good [TS]

  read it's the broader group B R A W you are now they sponsor during fire before [TS]

  I think they actually sure to it was a great success so they're back to [TS]

  announce the guys behind an app called is America called you bar just like at [TS]

  lower case you be a are you bar three and implement a ton of suggestions from [TS]

  he even says specifically from listeners of the talk show readers during fireball [TS]

  it's a dark replacement for the Mac the purpose of bars to vastly increase your [TS]

  productivity Pro users love it but it's also you know it's not just like a pro [TS]

  on the tool you can definitely see how a normal person in your family would [TS]

  totally get into this sort of sort of model more on the Windows taskbar so if [TS]

  you are anybody in your family as switching windows and sort of doesn't [TS]

  like the ways that the Mac OS 10 dog isn't like the Windows taskbar you bar [TS]

  is exactly the sort of thing you should look at [TS]

  it looks good it's not a very very cool looking very beautiful to puro as 10 [TS]

  style design and it's got for power users tons of shortcuts you can do [TS]

  things like hold down CTRL and you can see the CPU and RAM usage for any of the [TS]

  apps that are in there that are running will downshift and you can quit any app [TS]

  or close any window from that app just by clicking absolute unresponsive get a [TS]

  red background so you can spot hanging out immediately you don't have to go and [TS]

  launch so it's sort of like it's it's adding features from activity monitor [TS]

  right there in the in the taskbar tons and tons of custom customization you can [TS]

  set the size there's different themes dark and why exactly what you would [TS]

  think you get the idea when you listen to the you know the idea of the state [TS]

  that you know there's a lot of customization you can put on any side of [TS]

  any monitor including the top you can pin it to a corner just unbelievable [TS]

  stuff so here we go to you by our apt dot com and have a four-week trial you [TS]

  can download it start running again for weeks and cost is only 20 bucks so this [TS]

  is a great utility typical utility price 20 bucks but I think they're actually [TS]

  crazy cuz I think 20 bucks is a great price but here's the deal this is my [TS]

  idea but they have a coat red grouper are a ti na than my last name [TS]

  retina grouper I don't know if that's a reference to read the graphics are my [TS]

  problems are both but either way it could go either way [TS]

  50% off so you can get it for just 10 bucks so you get four weeks it right and [TS]

  it's 10 bucks to get and this is the part that one more thing the developer [TS]

  the app his last name is our quick seems like a shame I I don't know [TS]

  he has happened so Edward Edward bra or so they're at and driver development [TS]

  that's his primary that's how he supports himself that he's a programmer [TS]

  but here's the most amazing happy his hobby is watch meeting he makes real [TS]

  mechanical watches so he's actually watching a new timepiece radio show [TS]

  called The Mirage is a limited edition of only three hundred pieces each with [TS]

  an engraving number on the back he has sent one to me to really really nice [TS]

  take my number is one number I got 10 for something like that really nice [TS]

  style beautiful typography I mean it's like a real serious watch I think price [TS]

  750 bucks so we're talking about this is a joke it looks like us $150 watch it is [TS]

  really really amazing very very nice it has totally serious strap it made by [TS]

  company I'm never gonna pronounces right camille for name in Paris it's a [TS]

  blizzard like alligator leather strap they make OEM straps first actual [TS]

  serious watch companies like Patek Philippe and others it has a single [TS]

  deployment clasp single full deployment clasp that only means something if [TS]

  you're lucky person but if you are a white person you know what I mean really [TS]

  really nice it is I get serious dress watch but not addressing that you can [TS]

  wear it casually so go to for the white girl brower PRA wer timepieces dot com [TS]

  and the same code works there [TS]

  retina grouper and you can get that watch for 40% off so similar $50 watch [TS]

  but you can get a 40 percent off using that code shipping is free in the USA [TS]

  and Canada and it comes in a real watch box again if you've ever bought illegal [TS]

  can see why Charlie even like this [TS]

  edition watches you know that like $2000 watches most common an icebox fisticuffs [TS]

  in a really nice box [TS]

  the thing that I can't believe it's not that I can't believe somebody made a [TS]

  nice watches lots nice watches out there I just can't believe that this guy [TS]

  designed in made it and did all this stuff in machining to actually machine [TS]

  out the stainless steel frame the lodge and everything as like his hobby it's [TS]

  absolutely crazy that makes this amazing you borrow my thanks to to them for the [TS]

  bar which is probably something an awful lot of you ought to go look at it maybe [TS]

  by and for the new Mirage watch which probably isn't going to solve a lot of [TS]

  you but for those of you are into watches it absolutely positively worth [TS]

  looking at all so it's not too big I don't know what I would say if it has a [TS]

  diameter of only 40 millimetres so it's perfectly standard not too big to watch [TS]

  a woman could get away with it like a nice big watch for a woman told enormous [TS]

  size comes in three colors white blue and black so my thanks to check them out [TS]

  that the craziest part of the craziest fights over that's pretty impressive [TS]

  also I want to give you all my French words to pronounce never any of that I [TS]

  have no idea but perhaps even a tard alright here's the thing I want to tell [TS]

  you why I think you were here is the mistake I think you made with peace and [TS]

  I feel guilty about this because I knew over the summer that you were working on [TS]

  this thing and I i i didnt tested until late the night before something like [TS]

  that and I feel bad that I didn't cause I would have I would have called you out [TS]

  on the fact that it wasn't [TS]

  whitelisting the Dacron emphatically and in fact I was confused because I could [TS]

  swear that the night before when I didn't stop the better I did the first [TS]

  thing I did was check during fireball I could swear that it did show the ad and [TS]

  then you told me that there's some flaking is when you first enable these [TS]

  things after I think that's what I saw I don't put words in my mouth but here's [TS]

  what I think you rethink [TS]

  you were thinking I'm not I don't care don't want to have a bunch of Philly [TS]

  setting so I don't want to have its own thing that says block block all ad block [TS]

  most dads block half ads just block the worst ads and they're going to say here [TS]

  there's a switch block at and I think you were thinking I would be a hypocrite [TS]

  if I wait listed the DAC just because that's what my site as in so I'll do the [TS]

  thing that not being a hypocrite and just include the deck which is mine [TS]

  which is sort of I i think that by not whitelisting the deck you are committing [TS]

  an entirely different form of hypocrisy which is that all everything is content [TS]

  and everything that you publish from archive.org is your your your standing [TS]

  behind so by publishing ads from the deck by sending them to users your [TS]

  implicitly saying this is an ad that's worth you're seeing and it's worth your [TS]

  device that you're accessing the site downloading and rendering and putting on [TS]

  the page so I feel like you you painted yourself into by by releasing peace with [TS]

  the deck not be included you have two things you've got a website that is [TS]

  implicitly saying this is a thing this ad is worth you seen and is OK and then [TS]

  you have this other thing which is saying this is something that should be [TS]

  brought and there's no way to square that yeah that's true I mean that's that [TS]

  was part of the problem is that this was this was an unsolvable problem you know [TS]

  it was I can I could say that I no longer want any web ads to exist I can I [TS]

  could leave the deck the deck and from a site I could I could try to distinguish [TS]

  I could try to differentiate I could say well I'm not allow acceptable ads [TS]

  we see the problem that causes when other sites try their other bloggers try [TS]

  that we see that that's extremely messy and controversial and and I that's you [TS]

  know I don't want to be in that business and you know or I can I can try to [TS]

  differentiate between well I'm going to block ads but not trackers and repeats [TS]

  you like it you can't really make that differentiation because if you want to [TS]

  block tracking you have to block almost all ads so it you know and and trying to [TS]

  trying to keep up the list of what belongs on the other side of that almost [TS]

  is is very politically charged it is very subjective it's very messy and [TS]

  arguable and vague as to what you know what kind of atoms ok what kind of a [TS]

  decision is not a tracker what is what it what is tracking include in it it's [TS]

  it's it's such a messy world of vague distinctions and impossible problems and [TS]

  whatever decision you make people are going to disagree with it and so [TS]

  actually the safest most defensible position that a blocker can take is to [TS]

  his body everything like the head that is the most defensible position that I [TS]

  think that most of them can take and they just have to own what they actually [TS]

  are and is this is the part I had a problem with like you can't just say I'm [TS]

  gonna block trackers an ominous serve only good you have to hit some people in [TS]

  in a process of being effective likes some people have to lose and some of [TS]

  them are gonna be good people like the decking and we know all these people [TS]

  these are good people but if you're saying I'm selling an ad blocker it has [TS]

  to block the deck and and it's weird and if you if you sell an ad blocker and you [TS]

  know about the deck and you know the decades ads and you whitelist it or you [TS]

  you explicitly like goin omitted from your database that once it was already [TS]

  there and you're selling people a blocker then you're lying to your [TS]

  customers [TS]

  that's why I don't think you should call it an ad blocker I think and I but if [TS]

  you don't call it a blocker nobody buys it [TS]

  at the problem you know it's it's a terrible business I think that I don't [TS]

  know that no one would buy it I mean what to do how did you what did the [TS]

  marketing materials for peace [TS]

  described it as it said peace block ads and trackers power by guest blog web ads [TS]

  and records I would have said something to the effective while I wouldn't use [TS]

  the word crappy but block crappy ads and trackers and think of you know put that [TS]

  it off the top of my head I can't think of the way I would say that but that [TS]

  would be the gist of what I would get a cross inverted very few words block [TS]

  crappy ads and trackers and then that led to you [TS]

  whitelist and and there are like one of the most popular ones right now and then [TS]

  one if anybody wants recommendation right now the 1 I'm using is one blogger [TS]

  and by the by default one blogger does not block the deck exchanged some emails [TS]

  with Ben Brooks is doing a lot of work at Brooks reportedly really serious [TS]

  yeoman's work especially if he's you know he's like restarting his iPhone in [TS]

  between testing these things just the store to get it to his neutral estate [TS]

  and clear the judge was good as you said like the system is buggy [TS]

  energy it's really hard to know for sure with something simple and sometimes the [TS]

  system like I had to make a test URL that like on pieces website at Estoril [TS]

  that would load and would try to redirect to something that piece blocked [TS]

  and then would detect whether the redirect succeeded or not a notice and [TS]

  so like I had his butt in the Abu just test installation and it would like a [TS]

  WebView for 2nd Ave and tell you what happened but in a very buggy it's a very [TS]

  buggy system would i'm looking for in an ad blocker or content blocker on call [TS]

  Fri wes is I want one that is fast and noticeably improves the browsing [TS]

  experience you know I made iPhone [TS]

  blocks as much like pernicious stuff like the type of ad that like cover-up [TS]

  pop up in full-page blocked the page on looking at block stuff like that doesn't [TS]

  block the debt by the fall and that's it and nobody agrees on where that line is [TS]

  I agree I agree and that's you know obviously there's gotta be so one of the [TS]

  other way to look at it is no no ad blockers going to be perfect absolutely [TS]

  not detained and even if it you could say right now at this moment as I [TS]

  submitted to the App Store I think it's close to perfect as I can get it in [TS]

  terms of what it blocks and what it doesn't by next week that's going to be [TS]

  different because some of the people you block are going to find workarounds some [TS]

  of the ones you don't might clean up their policies it's it's fully dynamic [TS]

  but what I would but I would suggest and when I really think is possible and what [TS]

  I think for example one blogger right now is evidence of is that what you have [TS]

  to do is pick which side of perfection you're going to be on are you gonna be [TS]

  as your blocker going to be on the side of letting through some stuff that [TS]

  probably should be blocked or is it gonna be on the side of erring on the [TS]

  side of blocking some stuff that shouldn't be blocked and I think it's [TS]

  possible I think it's possible to build an ad blocker or content blog or [TS]

  whatever you wanna call it that isn't over aggressive and so therefore erred [TS]

  on the side of maybe there will be some things they get through that that you [TS]

  wish to get through but that overall gives you a really fast browsing [TS]

  experience in blocks most of the stuff you want and doesn't punish people who [TS]

  are doing it the right way and are serving things that shouldn't be bought [TS]

  I think that possible in one blogger is is the best proof of it today that they [TS]

  could be done but the fact is that was amazing to me is that in Ben Brooks [TS]

  testing and he's I think he's up to like 32 these I was content blockers that [TS]

  he's tracked in his testing one blogger isn't just fast it's the fastest and I [TS]

  know where peace was taken peace out of that but [TS]

  the only one that faster is it was roughly in the middle when he still had [TS]

  it in the only one that faster is some crazy one that i think is sort of like [TS]

  the one you wrote this summer that just blocks third-party JavaScript there's [TS]

  one that makes that that is head and shoulders faster than anything but it [TS]

  breaks have the internet like he he I forget the name of it it's got a funny [TS]

  name to put it there's a whole bunch of like mainstream states that just render [TS]

  is always a white box no I actually I had that issue with with my first my [TS]

  first version of of peace before negotiate the deal with the grocery it [TS]

  literally just bought all third-party JavaScript and the finding is how well [TS]

  that works most of the time it's it's called scripts crap that's a wonderfully [TS]

  awkward names like it that approach actually works [TS]

  the vast majority of the time but it's it's one of those things were like if [TS]

  the error rate [TS]

  like it if the pages it breaks it breaks on 10% of pages well that's actually [TS]

  very annoying and practice like that that's too high of a break a tree and [TS]

  the reason I won't go story instead was because it was the solution I found that [TS]

  had that had the lowest rate of sites that broke like things that actually [TS]

  just stopped working because like a lot of sites will tie in weird ways to like [TS]

  this especially analytics packages and especially Adobe Omniture that is one [TS]

  like Apple site breaks with without that a bunch of sites like that like [TS]

  functionality actually stops if you don't have certain trackers enabling go [TS]

  story actually keeps a database of that and and built it into their to their [TS]

  extension to try to like white list later took to try to whitelist things [TS]

  like that that are fairly innocent on certain sites that are required from to [TS]

  work properly and the bad they maintain a list of sites that break with you know [TS]

  for example amateur disabled and that's all I forget what it was [TS]

  couldn't as a part of Apple's developer website that I couldn't get working as [TS]

  going on [TS]

  and it just occurred to me it was like wait list this industry and I did it [TS]

  work [TS]

  the site I never thought that I would have to stick around and go story it was [TS]

  apple.com it's literally has no add you know unless you consider the entire [TS]

  website and it has no ads are you think of this web but it actually breaks with [TS]

  that I think it was exactly that and that's why I don't even think of [TS]

  analytics think but you know one of the one of the problems that one of the [TS]

  reasons why we have such obscenely rampant and over the top tracking on the [TS]

  web is this piss culture of data people nearly everything it is considered [TS]

  outrageous and obscene and and reckless if you run a website today that doesn't [TS]

  do very detailed analytics and behavioral tracking like if you if you [TS]

  have access to quote data and you're not collecting it or not [TS]

  mining it and analyzing it for eyeballs and various other body parts like it is [TS]

  it like that if you're considered like negligent almost in an owner of a [TS]

  website not doing all this tracking like that the standard industry wisdom and [TS]

  the pressure from everywhere in the industry is to track as much as you [TS]

  possibly can and and this is going to be here if you want one of the issues with [TS]

  this that that is still mostly under the radar is tracking happening inside of [TS]

  apps that can't be blocked by Safaricom ten-block yeah I would definitely like [TS]

  Twitter is famous for like always pushing the boundaries of like like they [TS]

  they they had this database of like something like over a thousand URL [TS]

  schemes custom iOS app URL schemes that they that they would call can OpenURL [TS]

  on the system API and that would tell them which of these URL scheme to [TS]

  register them they could then derive which apps to each user have installed [TS]

  and they can tailor their ads and they could sell their head they could they [TS]

  could actually sell people the idea of we can show your Twitter at two people [TS]

  who have this particular app installed and then and that that was so egregious [TS]

  of a privacy violation that Apple civilians research about 90 S nine and [TS]

  they actually kinda broke it for [TS]

  uses like that [TS]

  so in other words just to explain why I know David I'm just for anybody who [TS]

  would if that went over your head so the wave sandbox in works by Wes an app that [TS]

  plays by the rules and uses tipped passes the test that they do the united [TS]

  in private API's can't really look outside it [TS]

  sandbox and look at the file system and see what's in your iPhone's / [TS]

  Applications folder [TS]

  can't do it but what triggered it and I'm sure other people did between her I [TS]

  guess really walk far is when I got caught when a custom app like Instapaper [TS]

  hasn't Instapaper colon slash slash URL scheme and then you know the idea of the [TS]

  URL scheme is a that way another app can integrate with Instapaper this is really [TS]

  really common in pre shearing sheep days where you know apps would only will [TS]

  really way that Apple could communicate with each other [TS]

  want you know Instapaper communicating with weed pot or something like that was [TS]

  true but URL scheme so if if tweet but was going to integrate with Instapaper [TS]

  used to get you you know is that how we buy used to integrate with Instapaper as [TS]

  far as I remember yet almost all the all their clients and eventually and but [TS]

  through a custom URL scheme but then to make a nice user experience there was an [TS]

  API so Twitter Tweet pot or whatever app you know Twitterrific whoever would call [TS]

  if I send an instant paper colon slash slash URL is it going to be handled yes [TS]

  or no and then if the answer is no I go with anyone having to pay per install [TS]

  they won't even given the option so Twitter you survey any of a thousand [TS]

  apps are installed on the system and used it and then they of course no your [TS]

  Twitter account your login to Twitter using Twitter and he would transmit that [TS]

  data back to Twitter and would save it probably forever in your account in [TS]

  their ad analytics databases like it all this creepy stuff that made possible by [TS]

  this relatively innocent intending system maybe I yeah so that but this [TS]

  sort of a tangent but it absolutely gets to something that is a false accusation [TS]

  against me which is that [TS]

  in in my defense of the problem that some people seem to have with my take on [TS]

  this is that I'm not an absolutist that I don't feel like I feel like there's [TS]

  some people who want to say that if you're going to block some magic have to [TS]

  block them all and if you're going to whitelist some had you have to see them [TS]

  and I i does I think that bullshit I think it's probably bullshit because [TS]

  people are just what I'm suggesting which is traded you know used weightless [TS]

  and default for your ad blocker that strike a middle ground and again who [TS]

  defines a middle ground and whether different people have significantly [TS]

  different taste on where that line is drawn absolutely and who knows how [TS]

  sketchy but I absolutely think that someone who wants to take the absolutist [TS]

  all or nothing approach is is being stubbornly idealistic I don't know what [TS]

  the word is but it's an inner fooling themselves but the false accusation [TS]

  against me is that I'm somehow because I'm in the bag for Apple Pro Apple I'm [TS]

  on board without destroying the open Internet and taking us to a world where [TS]

  there's nothing but apps from the App Store and that falls for a couple of his [TS]

  number one my life's work is on a website and I don't have an app for it [TS]

  there is no during possible and I still have no plans to make one my side is in [TS]

  Apple news I haven't done anything related to it I really don't even [TS]

  understand how this works I might I might do something with their stuff I [TS]

  haven't really looked area I would be I would not be in favor of most people [TS]

  reading my side door openers in favor of that [TS]

  and lastly I don't think I i'm just as suspicious and concerned about the [TS]

  tracking what's going on in native apps as a break his native apps like the web [TS]

  the web can do a lot more egregious things they can do a lot more cross-site [TS]

  tracking tracking between different sites by third parties the Web makes a [TS]

  lot more that possible [TS]

  apps you're you're mostly mean depending on what they've been greater but you're [TS]

  mostly in apps limited to the maker of the app track new themselves and again [TS]

  there are there are some exceptions but third-party packages but for the most [TS]

  part that's going on and so you do have to worry about things like like like the [TS]

  big big social apps which again when you're talking about if you want to [TS]

  block tracking you got a block social and although social religious there that [TS]

  are in on all the sites you to block the fancy Richard prickly formatted Twitter [TS]

  in beds that people in bed a blog post you would probably also have to block [TS]

  embedded YouTube players because that's owned by Google a massive ad tracking [TS]

  company you know there's a lot you have to block if you want to block if you [TS]

  want to truly block tracking [TS]

  take a look at YouTube's a good example because it's so ubiquitous that it's [TS]

  central to the modern web landscape but if you ever just do a view source on a [TS]

  page with a YouTube in bed and just start going down the rabbit hole of the [TS]

  iframe and and what's going on there i mean it's almost impossible to follow [TS]

  along but you can see that it is nothing even vaguely resembling a video tag with [TS]

  the source pointing to the URL exactly it is you know I'll bed like a single [TS]

  YouTube in bed would probably involve more mark-up let alone JavaScript just [TS]

  more mark-up than the entirety of like a typical daring fireball page exactly [TS]

  yeah but but you know what app tracking you know your your they can do more [TS]

  detailed tracking of you but in a narrower scope like you're not usually [TS]

  like if you open up a random random applique you know there's there's a new [TS]

  game from the crossroad people [TS]

  guys or something today and I doubt that and knowing like you know what's the [TS]

  most you can really do here like i know i Oso sandbox and everything they're not [TS]

  be able to get all my other data they're not gonna be able to have a unique [TS]

  identifier tied to me that they can use in you know fifty other apps that are [TS]

  even published by then and you know some of the third party thing to do at the [TS]

  crossroad people have a new app called she's guys I haven't lost yet and I was [TS]

  gonna play it tonight [TS]

  planning late in the second half of the talk show up later on your advert ya [TS]

  know I always pay attention it never get them so is it nice do you like to enjoy [TS]

  not having to do them as you do mine ATP [TS]

  this is a great like it's great to show up to a podcast just talk and not have [TS]

  to worry about like I gotta get sponsors ready to make sure I have a script for [TS]

  all them and if i dont gotta write a review and everything is there ever been [TS]

  any discussion about when Casey do some [TS]

  talked about it assumed yeah he's so much nicer than me John you should do it [TS]

  but John does the toaster ovens which is the greatest single greatest ad campaign [TS]

  in my opinion in podcast history is going this week is that there's a [TS]

  toaster week this week it's a good one it is a really good one [TS]

  its cards against humanity he's campaign ad for any VI I'm guessing is enormous [TS]

  number of the people listening to this episode listen to ATP as well but for [TS]

  those of you who don't on accident tech podcast there is a year-long maybe over [TS]

  a year long it this whole counter it's it's almost over from cards against [TS]

  humanity and the entirety of the ad campaign there is absolutely no talking [TS]

  points about the game itself [TS]

  they just send chance if accuse the toaster oven ever every time an ad is [TS]

  coming up once a month 12 month they send him a toaster oven any and I'll air [TS]

  the entire roll the ad is for John to use review at a new toaster oven every [TS]

  month talk about the dials talk about how well it works for you know what [TS]

  egregious design mistakes that they've made turns out there's a lot of really [TS]

  badly designed toaster ovens out there he takes it totally serious as of course [TS]

  it does it's a fantastic but it must be nice I enjoy when I'm done it is quite [TS]

  nice even though I do enjoy enjoy doing these reeds though I've gotten I think [TS]

  I've gotten better at it and I enjoy it because I've gotten to the point now [TS]

  where I feel like it's a game or I'm trying to keep people from hitting the [TS]

  32nd skip really and if you do if you know you know it is what it is and you [TS]

  know it finding it was a tad blocking right i mean the ties into it [TS]

  similar it's it's like that it's not quite the same but very similar it's [TS]

  it's a niche in the ballpark for her I actually saw somebody on Twitter in in [TS]

  at at peak peace controversy think that's so funny that I think it was such [TS]

  a good name for a blocker think it's so funny that the way that it played out [TS]

  was so peaceful for you but I saw somebody who who tweeted something to [TS]

  the effect of its actually pretty clear idea that somebody who rides a podcast [TS]

  client did you know any given episode of a show if you tracked people's use of 30 [TS]

  seconds kept you could probably very easily pinpoint where the sponsor breaks [TS]

  are new episodes right and and you know this is like I thought this feature two [TS]

  years ago I think everybody who has made a podcast app has taught us feature [TS]

  especially ones Amazon launched their shared highlights for Kindles [TS]

  is very similar to that you know it's like you can attract highlight and then [TS]

  things get however a lot you can say is important and you can default to hit [TS]

  them where you could in a podcast app yeah you could track what's being scared [TS]

  and sections are pockets are skipped a lot you can have an option to [TS]

  automatically just skip them and first of all you know it would be hard to make [TS]

  that work very well in a way that would annoy people and that would be obvious [TS]

  what's happening but second of all I think like I've talked to other podcast [TS]

  app makers and mentioned this before and everyone else is the same thing I [TS]

  thought which is I don't want to do that to podcasting because I know like that [TS]

  would be weird by nature hurt podcasting and I don't want to do that I you know [TS]

  and I i feel like i I thought the other thing is that it's it's so respectful [TS]

  you know it's just time you know and it's you know I have gone before the [TS]

  summer episodes just because I've fallen way behind a weekly schedule but very [TS]

  long and so I absolutely ice to stick to never more than one and a half hour [TS]

  which I feel like it's pretty fair and compares extremely favorably to [TS]

  terrestrial radio oh my god and not even close and even compares I think very [TS]

  well too [TS]

  the Howard Stern Show on serious like amy amy is a huge howard stern fan and [TS]

  she still annoyed by the fact that the whole thing that hit structure is in the [TS]

  first place [TS]

  commercial free and then Iraq [TS]

  commercial free and then Iraq [TS]

  as we can tell the whole lot of very expensive and I don't know why I think [TS]

  in history own airfare expensive I bought them before [TS]

  well but from their perspective in the aggregate there I'm not saying it is but [TS]

  I think that I don't think that they could do and on the day could only get [TS]

  paid salary if it wasn't for that I don't know I disagree you think you can [TS]

  go you think I paid less for a live read on his show then what you and I charge [TS]

  for live radar shows right now so many serious and amazing you got you got [TS]

  Howard actually read it [TS]

  yeah yeah it's still alive read that's why it's valuable was really great it [TS]

  was a really cool thing but anyway I just feel like that again its [TS]

  negotiation and I'm sure there are people out there listening right now who [TS]

  even though I told them not to get the thirty second thing during the Broward [TS]

  thing before and they're probably gonna hit on some of the ones that I'm about [TS]

  to do and that's ok I mean you know but my job but I feel like I've gotten [TS]

  better enough doing this and i feel like im still attracting interesting enough [TS]

  group of sponsors that it's a fun game for me when I do to try to keno you know [TS]

  I am i doing I'm imagining a listener with his dumb hovering over the thirty [TS]

  seconds kept trying to keep pressing or at least only avenue president yeah [TS]

  there's some value in it like for example I will I'll break right into one [TS]

  right now and here's one that I bet somebody but a fair number of people [TS]

  with 30 seconds kept because they are here almost every single week at our [TS]

  friends at fracture fracture of the people who bring your photos unless they [TS]

  sponsor the show all the time and the reason I keep coming back is cos you [TS]

  guys out there keep buying pictures from them so you're probably familiar with [TS]

  them [TS]

  really high-quality printing the print on the back of the glass you send them a [TS]

  photo of a pin on the back of the class it's right there on the glass not like a [TS]

  piece of paper stuck to it is not a frame paper behind glass right there on [TS]

  the class really really nice the best way to get actual analog versions of [TS]

  your photos that I've ever seen because there's no work involved just upload the [TS]

  photo and then it comes back to you and it's all nice and ready to go [TS]

  they do have that she have a special message that they want me to get across [TS]

  it's only October 1st is a record clearly a big part of fractures market [TS]

  is gifts people buying photos for gifts and obviously the holiday season is [TS]

  coming up [TS]

  October 1st does not sound like it's close to the holidays nobody's I don't [TS]

  think holiday decorations seem to go up earlier and earlier in retail [TS]

  usually people this way to holding a pumpkin spice season right now [TS]

  yeah exactly gotta wait till pumpkin spice goes away but fracture want me to [TS]

  remind you that they do get backed up at the holidays and so this might be a good [TS]

  way to does knock out a couple of your Christmas gifts a really really early [TS]

  and not worry about cutting it close in getting caught behind because that by [TS]

  the end of December they actually can't keep up and you can't do it [TS]

  last-minute get in time for Christmas because they're so so busy so think [TS]

  about it think about the people who might want to give a fracture image 24 [TS]

  the holidays and get it over with now just do it and you'll feel better you'll [TS]

  know you have you know someone in your office boxes packed up you've already [TS]

  got some your Christmas gifts knocked out ready to go [TS]

  really is a good gift we do it every year i I can't even imagine until [TS]

  fracture isn't even around anymore I can imagine it up [TS]

  holiday seasons gonna go by we don't get some of these for some of the people in [TS]

  our family really really great stuff [TS]

  where do you go to find out more their website is fracture me.com and their URL [TS]

  code is daring fireball and if you've never ordered from them before use that [TS]

  code daring fireball and you will save 15% off your listeners first order and [TS]

  if you listen to the show if you like a Markov and you could use the code ATP [TS]

  and you'll stay the same amount and you give the the Mojo 22 the accident [TS]

  tech podcast 8314 8315 [TS]

  change used to be a TV right or did they think I think in 2015 I think it became [TS]

  me to be there any way you could even water that you know their responses [TS]

  before 2015 have been long-term sponsors anyway it's all good they're a great [TS]

  company with a truly truly great product and you know if you've ever wondered why [TS]

  in the world do they keep sponsoring these podcasts I swear it's because [TS]

  people keep buying the fractures from them so keep it up and it really really [TS]

  can't say enough about the gift couple weeks ago about to another one they make [TS]

  great gifts yeah you get you do get concerned most of the people in your [TS]

  family probably don't listen to podcast just like mine said they have no idea [TS]

  and when they see them they really is like a hole like wow how did the world [TS]

  did you make this and you know you could tell it fractured meed.com and I i have [TS]

  severe gift-giving anxiety every year and to have it to have an easy solution [TS]

  that's kinda like a go to think I don't know what to get someone in my family I [TS]

  can get them a cute picture of you know my grandparents or my kid or something [TS]

  you know that works out well I don't know why I'm always envious of your ad [TS]

  reads UN hello internet I think do the best live read like her as bass turds [TS]

  those cases they aren't a frustratingly good that actually cuz it again i said i [TS]

  do I don't like I listen to yours because I want to see how you do it you [TS]

  know it you know like okay at Squarespace again what you gonna do you [TS]

  know it's a chance [TS]

  it is cuz I die I want to keep it fresh for people who aren't skipping I don't [TS]

  want to say the same thing every time the Hello energized god they're really [TS]

  good at it like it's frustrating enough that their podcast so good in general [TS]

  but that they also just kill it on the ad reads and that they require like I've [TS]

  always wanted to try recording the ads separately from the show and dropping [TS]

  them in afterwards because I don't like doing it during the show because it it [TS]

  makes me pay attention to something else during the show rather than what my [TS]

  co-stars talking about and like I always have my mind right now I'm going to be [TS]

  loaded up on screen maybe read a couple times first like and i'm having to do [TS]

  all that as Casey or John are talking about something that and so I'm not [TS]

  listening to them i'm looking at an ad and so they feel it makes the show worse [TS]

  but I i dont know I haven't figured out how to do it well yet maybe I'll have to [TS]

  try it sometime [TS]

  i've i've been given serious thought the exact same thing and I might play with [TS]

  it they feel like it's a sort of thing I can say I can play with and it's not [TS]

  irrevocable you know yeah but I feel like you do need some kind of sound [TS]

  effects are intended that I don't have one of those ready and it's one of the [TS]

  things I haven't done it yet if you just try to drop it in you sound different [TS]

  and everyone notices like it is very obvious like this is recorded at a [TS]

  different time your voice is more or less tired rasputin it was like in the [TS]

  surrounding parts of the show you can hear maybe the rooms and a little bit [TS]

  different maybe it's a little bit more echo -e are you reading the Michael a [TS]

  bit further away or a different Mike two weeks ago or something like you can [TS]

  always tell when it's recorded at different times have you ever noticed me [TS]

  I've done that a few times have you ever noticed yeah every time I do it every [TS]

  time I listen to podcast I'm terrible headphones and I noticed every time but [TS]

  that's just me I'm a nerd but yes if I switch to that when when I have done [TS]

  it's because something has changed either I've made a terrible mistake or [TS]

  somebody else has made a mistake and [TS]

  or or I didn't get it in time you know that there was some kind of [TS]

  communication problems like crap I told you I don't have it I just fill it in [TS]

  later and you know when I've done in the past I've tried to fake it as best we [TS]

  can to do it and if it doesn't come out perfectly so what if I were to switch [TS]

  switch to something where it's obvious and it's you know there's a little you [TS]

  know sound effect yes I really do think you would like one of the reasons like I [TS]

  i've i've always been interested in the idea of trying an ad-free show but ATP [TS]

  is so big now and it's not just me that I like you know i'm i'm willing to [TS]

  gamble with large amounts of money [TS]

  of potential future income but I can't make that decision for two other people [TS]

  alone you know this and so I don't wanna rock the boat there but one of the [TS]

  reasons I was motivated to even consider rocking the boat there is because I [TS]

  don't like doing the ads online because I'm afraid of the attention it's taking [TS]

  away of my attention is taking away from the conversation and I think that makes [TS]

  it worse I should try that I gotta figure what sounds to book and it wasn't [TS]

  just try it and i also like I i heavily edit the ad reads because see this is [TS]

  why this is why you frustrate me because I try to catch my ad reads 23 minutes [TS]

  and ideally it's you know it's it's at least one and a half and it's at most [TS]

  three minutes and I and if I almost always end up running way over that are [TS]

  usually are usually do on the live show I usually do a four-minute had read and [TS]

  then in the Edit I added it down to fit three and I still feel like I'm not [TS]

  saying everything I wanted to say in the read meanwhile you come in here and you [TS]

  talk at like one mile an hour during your ad reads can you manage to say [TS]

  everything you need to say and they're not longer than three minutes usually [TS]

  they're not that much longer or shorter than mine so you managed to somehow say [TS]

  way more with way fewer words in the same a time and your sound more relaxed [TS]

  and more natural and mine sounds kind of stressed out some training criminal in [TS]

  three minutes at how we write I guess maybe minor bruise [TS]

  first they were really bad I didn't get e-mails complaining about it I got [TS]

  emails very sympathetic emails 703 doing a show without damn Benjamin [TS]

  Marco really angered the internet the people who were angry weren't refused to [TS]

  listen so they weren't listening and sending me hate me about how bad the [TS]

  show was they weren't even listening and they were just get a listener's I got [TS]

  some but I think most of them didn't really didn't get a lot of that they [TS]

  just went right items terrible one-star reviews and they were done by people who [TS]

  listen where people who were in still enjoying it and they were very [TS]

  sympathetic but it was sorta like this sort of email I think that you get when [TS]

  you know you come down it was exactly like the email I got when I talked about [TS]

  the stuff that's happened with my eye and you get these really nice emails [TS]

  from people saying how sorry they are really sorry about the way you're doing [TS]

  these ad reads it's terrible whose I got you know like I had an affliction [TS]

  you picked up pretty quickly I mean I like yet those first few were definitely [TS]

  rough I think by like this episode you were pretty much in a group [TS]

  well there's anything I did wrong and I'm not a big fan of I can read that [TS]

  like the guys know whatever his name is just taken over the Daily Show like he [TS]

  did like a whole week or so of test shows shows that are never gonna care [TS]

  but real shows they do shows I understand why it is hosting a TV show [TS]

  that as tight as the Daily Show really does have two beers but you can't [TS]

  rehearse the whole episode because every day it's that day's news so you have to [TS]

  get good at it but if there's anything that I should have rehearsed and thrown [TS]

  away I should have done [TS]

  sponsor reads instead of doing that I should have did record you know not four [TS]

  episodes they should have recorded some and in force myself to listen to them [TS]

  and do it it didn't take too long ago it took a couple weeks before I got at [TS]

  least ok and I guess I could have just skipped the point where I was really [TS]

  terrible [TS]

  that was that was part of the learning process you know you wouldn't have [TS]

  learned it necessarily anyway the thing that really got me was the last episode [TS]

  hello internet when Brady did fracture one and it was that he'd sent a picture [TS]

  to CGP grey Center fracture to them to him of what was it that you make him [TS]

  wrapped one of the two animals that he's been obsessed with Lady know the hand [TS]

  there and the other is the official birthday hello internet right but said [TS]

  it had sent him a picture that related to an entire huge segment of the show [TS]

  that it already been gone so is just had this beautiful serendipity in and really [TS]

  made it feel like it was part of the show again like I said I had our content [TS]

  part of the country serving as its not something separate and hella winner at [TS]

  the way they do it it really does feel like part of the show they they have a [TS]

  bit they mention their numbers in the last half they have WAY bigger listener [TS]

  basis than we do to it with good reason to their show is awesome and it's like [TS]

  people can enjoy that show without being huge tech nerds like our shows you [TS]

  pretty much have to be a huge Apple nerds are to really get much out of our [TS]

  shows but their show is way more accessible and it really like they they [TS]

  joke about long time in a discussion about the two dudes talking podcast [TS]

  format which is very calm and especially attitudes talking loosely about tech [TS]

  matters but I think what makes their show so grade is that yes there are a [TS]

  lot of two dudes talking shows but they really perfected that format like it [TS]

  like to have these to specific people talking about whatever they talk about [TS]

  like they have amazing host chemistry between the two of them and they're both [TS]

  amazing characters like there if they're incredibly amusing to listen to any [TS]

  playoff each other well and it's very nicely edit it so you have this [TS]

  combination of just like no wonder it's so popular is they're really good at it [TS]

  and its early combination begin with they also both have good voices yeah you [TS]

  really can't help [TS]

  and you know what you gonna do but well that's one thing that I love about [TS]

  podcasting though I can be frustrating for like half listeners who want to talk [TS]

  about whatever happens happen this week but one thing I love about podcasting [TS]

  like when I was a kid I used to I think a lot of people did this especially were [TS]

  nerds like me I used to record fake radio shows with my friends who [TS]

  basically like us talking into a cassette recorder as if we're on the [TS]

  radio and never listening back to it or listening back once and then I'll be [TS]

  like I we make these fakery like I always wanted to be a radio deejay and [TS]

  the reality is a that is a terrible business of being an actual radio deejay [TS]

  is horrible so that's problem number one problem number two is I was never going [TS]

  to be a teacher I don't have the right voice I don't speak well enough I [TS]

  certainly don't have the background of the opportunity to become a deejay for [TS]

  the training like a training like I was never one to be DJIA I just I don't have [TS]

  the voice for it I don't have the skills for a time does not cut out for that job [TS]

  in the same I'm not going to be like a football player like I'm just such as I [TS]

  don't have I'm not the person for that I i'm not i'm not made for that but with [TS]

  podcasting it's it's really quite a meritocracy in that like one of the [TS]

  views of this medium is that you don't need to attract the wide audience that [TS]

  you know TV and radio people do normally like the locality issues and everything [TS]

  with this with podcasting even people who talk sloppily and have mediocre [TS]

  voices like me can do my job is podcasting I i talked on a version of [TS]

  the radio for a living and the the idea that like I'm fulfilled his childhood [TS]

  dream this to have always wanted to do that I really am not qualified to do but [TS]

  it just happens to work out better in this medium like that is amazing to me [TS]

  and as a listener podcasts as a massive listener podcasts I I love listening to [TS]

  other shows that are also made by amateurs like me that are just talking [TS]

  about interesting stuff and I know [TS]

  although but the big lake public radio podcast I don't listen to almost any of [TS]

  them because there's so much else going on that I wanna listen to I don't have [TS]

  time for them is there so much else is made by amateurs and people like me that [TS]

  much more interested in that's much more narrowly focused then like here's a [TS]

  story i'ma tell you about something that happened you know if i dont i dont need [TS]

  that I have my all my time is filled up with people talking about more narrow [TS]

  interest that I like better later but it does make me jealous when I hear the [TS]

  professionals hello Internet yeah it is it is frustrating when people are really [TS]

  good podcasters who also have really good voices and production and speak [TS]

  with their such there too said interesting characters as well and [TS]

  exactly a very honest I don't think that they've made up personas into just being [TS]

  themselves but they're very very nice very nice fellows absolutely yeah and [TS]

  like you know like gray is obviously the straight guy you know he's you know he's [TS]

  the more logical and doesn't come up with ideas then but then he's kinda [TS]

  crazy tick like this always comes up where he lives [TS]

  standby ticket and will wait weeks and weeks and weeks knowing when he's gonna [TS]

  fly which is crazy that's why that's so is so great because like you have used [TS]

  these great interesting people who end and like the fact that Brady can I tease [TS]

  it out of him and then hit him over the head with a constantly they they're able [TS]

  to put your buttons extremely well as well like it is it is so good show so [TS]

  anybody who hasn't listened to it but there there will be only use it there [TS]

  well beyond are the size of our audiences which had been talked about [TS]

  for an hour [TS]

  deservedly so the funny thing was that they didn't think to they've done a [TS]

  thing which is which actually think you bring it up because I was going to bring [TS]

  it up so anybody out there do they they did a thing where they solicited for the [TS]

  listeners of their show to write to them [TS]

  tell them if they listen to the show while doing interesting things like what [TS]

  is the context you know something beyond just you know I listen to the show on a [TS]

  drive to work you know and there's people who are like there's a good guy [TS]

  is like a surgeon he does like surgery on like mice brains because he's [TS]

  studying the effects of some kind of scientists and they put the Meister [TS]

  estonian and he'd perform surgery on her brain disease there fact so while he's [TS]

  doing as he lists one of the things he doesn't listen to podcasts to listen to [TS]

  the show that's an interesting thing and they had they had a guy who who manned [TS]

  the the latter caught the steps that like Air Force One Air Force One land he [TS]

  he's the guy who liked puts the latter up there with the president comes to [TS]

  their car right yeah the steric are listened to their show while he does you [TS]

  know and and then they even like said like just to make sure that the trouble [TS]

  he's very very clear he does this like in the you know like you have to stand [TS]

  here and wait for four hours for the hundred and uniting he's not listening [TS]

  while the president might be coming down the steps he's you know he's paying [TS]

  attention and doing his job but it's obviously get a job with a lot of [TS]

  waiting involved because they know the president shows up when the president [TS]

  shows up the president isn't running out the clock what an interesting job though [TS]

  and i think that that guy is alleviating the tedium of the waiting part of his [TS]

  job or while he's off duty or whatever by listening to the show so anybody I [TS]

  would I would be interested to know the same thing if there are interesting [TS]

  context where people listen to the talk show so you can just email read some of [TS]

  them in a future episode I don't know anything about my audience like you said [TS]

  like that idea you got it you have to hook up the data and collect all the [TS]

  analytics for everything I i dont wanna know I I do like knowing what popular I [TS]

  like to try to try to look at the stats just to see if an article is unusually [TS]

  popular [TS]

  ur and I i like to see in striking know it's you know I like to see referral [TS]

  tracking and see if I'm getting an unusual amount of traffic from some [TS]

  other popular place for cider tweet you know but in terms of like knowing things [TS]

  about the audience i know i dont wanna know that like even even like the [TS]

  checking of the mint and everything like back when I wrote that the my previous [TS]

  controversy [TS]

  the Apple fucking high ground thing after that went crazy I realized that I [TS]

  like there was a day like I I just turned off [TS]

  analytics for the site during a just kinda like I don't want to be motivated [TS]

  by this anymore and it's kind of like if you if you forgot a vacation and and you [TS]

  start checking Twitter for a while and then you have such a massive pileup that [TS]

  you can't keep up with you guessed it scroll to top and you realize like oh I [TS]

  didn't read Twitter for like three or four days and I missed nothing of [TS]

  importance of eye-opening well I had a similar kind of thing with with [TS]

  analytics on my website where I ran first meant for a while and Google [TS]

  Analytics for a while and and [TS]

  and eventually I realized when I turned it off for a little while after the in [TS]

  the wake of all that drama as I just like I wants me some peace and quiet I [TS]

  turned it off for a while and I realized I didn't miss it at all and and part of [TS]

  that is a luxury that we have that you know we don't need to really know our [TS]

  day-to-day pageviews the deck bills in advance for PC is basically and so we [TS]

  are paid a flat rate by the deck based on the general amount of traffic that we [TS]

  tend to have gotten over the last 20 years or whatever like my race for the [TS]

  deck hasn't changed in years and because my traffic as you know about the same [TS]

  and it isn't if I write something that gets all of a sudden a million page [TS]

  views out of the blue I'm not going to see a dime for that Tech has pre-sold [TS]

  the the ads for that and so they aren't seeing a dime for it and that's just so [TS]

  I so we have no incentive to like temporarily juice pageviews or right [TS]

  things are going to get temporary traffic really and and so the only [TS]

  reason I would really need to run a web analytics of any kind is what you'd like [TS]

  for me to know ago where's traffic coming from and where you know what what [TS]

  do I write that gets meaningful numbers compared to anything else i right and [TS]

  what I realized was that that information was not beneficial to my [TS]

  life or my work it it was all it was doing was like being another vanity [TS]

  metric second the reality is twitter is a vanity metric now anyway and I should [TS]

  stop checking that as well but I still do like I will check the number of [TS]

  retweets that like whenever a blog post about it also saw check with number of [TS]

  retweets that God and I have some ideas like oh well this one got to this one [TS]

  got forty so obviously that resonated with more people but the actual web [TS]

  advertiser web tracking that level for everything I've decided that's no longer [TS]

  thing that that I need to care about and so i dont wanna yeah I like to know some [TS]

  of the user agent stuff and I can get this out of my server logs it's just [TS]

  that and that's one thing I've been talking about getting rid of Google [TS]

  Analytics I'm going to get seriously just a matter of days they just do it [TS]

  tomorrow and mainly because I think that it's private invasive and I i actually [TS]

  think that it's wrong of me to to be using Google and they have a very opaque [TS]

  privacy policy that as i've read it and I've done this over the years I've been [TS]

  using Google Analytics for years and there was a whole year to period where I [TS]

  stopped using it and I missed some data like what percentage of my users are [TS]

  using which browser and what percentage of them are on iOS vs Mac OS vs other [TS]

  operating systems and there's ways to get that without using analytics but [TS]

  Google just hooking up Google Analytics was the easiest way to do it and then I [TS]

  felt bad because a lot of my long-term stats were entirely out of whack because [TS]

  I had this fourteen-month period right shut it off but I've read their private [TS]

  the privacy issue is the main thing that makes me want to shut it off [TS]

  above and beyond anything else is that I can't shake the suspicion that Google is [TS]

  using the cookies this set for Google to track the people who read during [TS]

  fireball across the web and using it for advertising even I don't use any Google [TS]

  advertising and if you read their privacy policy attempt to me at least to [TS]

  me it's a reading of foreign language and it's the way that I'm I'm amazed and [TS]

  impressed by attorneys who who write the contracts that run the whole world [TS]

  because I think I'm a good reader I've always tested high terms of reading [TS]

  comprehension I read most most contracts and I might as well be written in the [TS]

  form I don't understand anything I don't understand what is going on in Google's [TS]

  privacy policy for analytics is to me that type of privacy policy [TS]

  I understand what each of the words mean in in the aggregate I have no idea what [TS]

  it means and I've come to the conclusion that if you don't understand what our [TS]

  privacy policy means you should do your worst assumptions are probably right [TS]

  any know you're right that he'll buy by having Google Analytics on your site you [TS]

  are selling your visitors data to Google without their knowledge [TS]

  land it's one of the things like it's kind of uncomfortable like you know like [TS]

  a lot of things and and web publishing and advertising if you actually face it [TS]

  if you actually think about all the ramifications of that and you face the [TS]

  truth of that you face the reality of that it is uncomfortable and it and you [TS]

  have to you know you have to wait as decision of do I keep using this for the [TS]

  utility that provides or do I take a principled stand and and and accept the [TS]

  cost of that so Google Analytics gives you information like how many people are [TS]

  in what country and even like within the USA what state like how many you know [TS]

  and and unsurprisingly by side is largely us' lot of people in the UK lot [TS]

  of people in Germany Germany's always been the third country but you're [TS]

  already down at a very low percentage and everybody else is spread around the [TS]

  world and then within the U S 200 people in the northeast coast most of them in [TS]

  california and most of them in California largely centered in the [TS]

  northern part of California you know exactly who you think I don't need [TS]

  Google Analytics to tell me that though and I find it weird and I just wonder [TS]

  how the hell did they know that and I know there's ways to go back from IP [TS]

  addresses and stuff like that but I just can't help but worry that part of it is [TS]

  that if you're logged in to Google from Gmail and then you go over to a separate [TS]

  a vineyard fireball that they're they're saying all we know Marco lives in New [TS]

  York because we know everything about Marco and we've already got a cookie on [TS]

  this system that's right there that does this right and it doesn't take much to [TS]

  uniquely identify somebody between sites on the web like you can just play [TS]

  analyzing some very basic stuff about the request and even if they block [TS]

  almost every kind of add you know if if they come to your site a couple times [TS]

  and if they know you couldn't you can just kind of match even if their IP [TS]

  change you can just match like somebody's approximate zip code by using [TS]

  IP lookup and match that with like the request headers at their browser send [TS]

  which include at the browsers version but the exact version the OS exact [TS]

  and stuff like that maybe something like if it has certain plugins than the [TS]

  plug-in version looks like Pfizer Java like oh those are all in the in the in [TS]

  the header of requests so if you just take a couple of those things [TS]

  couple of data points you could you need to identify people surprisingly quickly [TS]

  like with only two or three different points of that kind of set so you really [TS]

  is is very much like if you give him an extra ticket foot like you have to be [TS]

  very careful what you allow on your site if you want to actually be productive [TS]

  people's privacy and you have to be aware as a visitor that you know you [TS]

  might think you're that you have more privacy but in reality you are [TS]

  inadvertently leaking data all over the place to everybody who's willing to [TS]

  capture it and it's and you might not care most people don't think about it [TS]

  and they they might not care if you told them but especially young people tend [TS]

  not to care but certainly if your privacy minded you have to be incredibly [TS]

  wary of what you like it because you know they can they can do so much for so [TS]

  little if you go if you're logged in to Google Analytics I'd I was here and you [TS]

  go to the bottom I don't maybe they have a separate one but when you go and [TS]

  Privacy Policy it just takes you to Google's main privacy policy which is [TS]

  for you know everything that Google does so it's just I don't even know if that's [TS]

  what they mean you know like what I want to know is a publisher is what are my [TS]

  readers being exposed to hear what's being tracked about them in it it [TS]

  doesn't seem like there's any good way to get that answer or if there is I I'll [TS]

  be damned if I can find it and to me that's just so I don't know why I really [TS]

  gotta get rid of it I'm sure there's other ways I can do it and there's just [TS]

  the system I'm thinking about installing is called pipi work by Wikipedia i Wik [TS]

  yes that's a pretty common yeah I'm not quite sure what information is in but [TS]

  that just a quick whatever it's called [TS]

  is that its like men and that it's locally stored and so I would be running [TS]

  it my own copy of it on my server storing my copy of the stats in my SQL [TS]

  database and it's there are no cookies that are shared across other sites or [TS]

  anything like that would track you all it is is knowledge of what people coming [TS]

  to my site do so there'd be nothing privacy invasive about it at all other [TS]

  than the fact that you are a person who is reading my site which you know [TS]

  obviously do know some of the stats though that I don't know what that is [TS]

  but some of the stuff like that is interesting and I will miss but I don't [TS]

  miss it enough to keep using Google Analytics is like the number of people [TS]

  using which browser and how many people use which operating system stuff like [TS]

  that in some of that you can get to the user agent but a lot of it you you use [TS]

  JavaScript to get things like like you know whether it has a screen or not but [TS]

  I think so much that stuff is just becoming so irrelevant [TS]

  like what what would you actually do with information you know most of it is [TS]

  not that important [TS]

  well any other factors that I don't like I truly do believe I gotta say it over [TS]

  and over again if there's a theme of this episode it's everything you publish [TS]

  on your site is content and counts and so I don't want JavaScript executing [TS]

  that setting getting the bounds of the screen at a waste of CPU time you know [TS]

  and you know i i get all Syracuse here but I'm sure it doesn't take very long [TS]

  for a little bit of javascript is just figure out what the current screen size [TS]

  is and send it back but every little thing you do that test like that adds up [TS]

  to something and all of a sudden you've got you know five seconds of load time [TS]

  for tractors and analytics you know each little step of it is you know a tenth of [TS]

  a second exactly so anyway might as well take a break right here and talk about [TS]

  our next sponsor it is as a new sponsor first time sponsor the show they're [TS]

  called just works [TS]

  jus T W O R K S [TS]

  running payroll filing W two's negotiating health care prices already [TS]

  asleep the sounds terrible these are all the things that if you're a small [TS]

  business owner that you could be doing instead of listening to the talk show [TS]

  sounds like a lot of fun right [TS]

  well you couldn't just let just works [TS]

  take care of that stuff for you just works helps businesses take care of all [TS]

  that type of basic crap benefits payroll age are now that is crap that it doesn't [TS]

  matter I think most of your employees think payroll this very important but [TS]

  the bookkeeping aspects of it actually doing the work of making Iran and making [TS]

  all the books out up and making sure everybody gets paid with this was a pain [TS]

  busy work right you're not in a bad you're not in the business of payroll [TS]

  you're in the business of whatever your businesses so check them out their [TS]

  website is just works [TS]

  dot com they help businesses take care of the stuff they they do it all for you [TS]

  running a successful business is hard enough doing the actual business of [TS]

  whatever your businesses whatever it is making apps making websites selling [TS]

  coffee whatever it could be but all those little details of a charge Tehran [TS]

  stuff like that can make it feel overwhelming probably the sort of thing [TS]

  that keeps a lot of people from even starting a small business in the first [TS]

  place because you just think will help make you know I can't afford to hire [TS]

  somebody did it just works it's just easy and intuitive software very very [TS]

  affordable great prices it's not like you're hiring somebody to do this for [TS]

  you you're paying a little internet service to do it and take care of it so [TS]

  if you run a business and you have payroll benefits compliant with a jar [TS]

  stuff like that [TS]

  go check them out at just works dot com take it all off your shoulders relax [TS]

  listen to our podcast and you can use this code very easy there's a nice coat [TS]

  TTS the talk-show three-letter code when you sign up you'll save 10% off your [TS]

  first year of service just works dot com [TS]

  so if you run a business go check them out you're just wasting your time if you [TS]

  don't answer for the show but there's a lot of people who run companies have to [TS]

  do stuff like that for a little while and I use one of the other big services [TS]

  to do it and they have to file the state workers comp stuff and I had to I was [TS]

  threatened by New York State to have to pay $15,000 a day until it was resolved [TS]

  and I want to go sit down and only pay a few thousand bucks but then you wanna [TS]

  company that does that right and I can tell you the big guys don't always so I [TS]

  would definitely give just one shot really good I would if I say anything I [TS]

  it's always worth reevaluating anytime anything that is a pain in your ass you [TS]

  should look and see if there's a way that you can pay someone to do it for [TS]

  you [TS]

  yeah that's a really good rule in general and it's it is it the vast part [TS]

  of the Internet era of modern society is that an entirely new realm of things can [TS]

  be automated that just wasn't feasible before right like you know you know it's [TS]

  just silly example but like those buttons that Amazon gives out now that I [TS]

  go around a detergent you can just hit a button in and have detergents at your [TS]

  house but there's no way that can happen before the internet there's no way [TS]

  before the internet that you could just as easily set up a thing that would do [TS]

  the payroll in a jar for your company like it just wasn't feasible how how [TS]

  would you interact with them you need the internet and website you need some [TS]

  way of interacting with them you know like the sears catalog existed so you [TS]

  could order stuff to get shipped to your house before the internet but you can't [TS]

  have a print-based interaction with the company that handling your age are you [TS]

  know I think you have to use a fax machine India Ltd player you know I [TS]

  think right now I might be a good thing to keep track of is how long I've gone [TS]

  without being asked to either send or receive a fax and I don't think I think [TS]

  if I had been doing that you know this many days since an accident at the plant [TS]

  I think that right now [TS]

  knock on wood I might be in the longest stretch of not having been asked to do a [TS]

  fax in my life i buy a house you serious oh yeah that's gonna biggest tragedy [TS]

  since I'm saying that I am pretty sure they still i mean these days you can [TS]

  usually somebody who asked you to fax something you can usually say can i scan [TS]

  it and email to you instead and usually they will say yes but but not always the [TS]

  percentage of time you can do that is going up thank God but I don't have a [TS]

  working scanner and now I do I shouldn't say don't have a working scanner I gotta [TS]

  doxie but I i dont you get a chance I don't i dont have I don't know where it [TS]

  is and he mentioned this before Amy recently gave me a wonderful gift she [TS]

  cleaned up my office my office is a mess I mean it's a serious Andy Rooney [TS]

  situation but I do have it's not a system I'm an amendment saying it's a [TS]

  good idea but I generally you know if I go a long time [TS]

  idea of in which pile on which shelf something is she claimed it all up and [TS]

  and you know it's all organizing stuff but I don't know where that is so [TS]

  usually when I have to scan something I don't I don't know where an actual [TS]

  scanners tried to take a picture with my phones like a samosa can i scan it and [TS]

  email it and they'll say yes and I'll just take a picture with my phone and [TS]

  crap out the table [TS]

  send them there and they've never once heard anything [TS]

  and they're also there are lots of apps that will do a fancier job of that late [TS]

  though use the cellular phone camera but they'll be able to like detect where the [TS]

  page is in the lady skew it so it's properly lined up and everything I know [TS]

  smile makes when I think it's PDF scan + yeah yeah yeah they make one is there's [TS]

  a bunch of them out so bad I have their pretty sure I I also never use it is I [TS]

  have I have a ScanSnap which is awesome but a lot of people use those apps on [TS]

  the phone and they're finding it you know for your skin volume is very low [TS]

  that is extremely low very very loans can buy anything else why say about [TS]

  peace though I'm glad it's over I mean it really does seem like it's over now i [TS]

  get i i really am still getting like the the various Lake inquiries from media [TS]

  people earlier this is going to address me earlier any chance you can join us [TS]

  for a webinar on ad blockers for the ad industry this coming Tuesday I can DMU [TS]

  more details I can't imagine a tweet that it was less well crafted to get my [TS]

  response than that yeah I like media requests from people who want me to go [TS]

  speak at their webinars to the ad industry about ads but for the most part [TS]

  of the also died down and it is I'm just so relieved and so now I'm back to work [TS]

  on overcast which is so much better [TS]

  it's probably not going to make anywhere near the right of the money that piece [TS]

  did but I don't care because it I would say I'm so much happier working on it [TS]

  it's no contest I I thought that you really it seemed on your show and this [TS]

  wasn't even talking to you but it just seemed listening to ATP that it really [TS]

  hit you hard personally like the thing that seemed to me the most upset you [TS]

  was the idea that this thing that you built in two weeks I mean maybe on our [TS]

  summer but I really really low level of effort [TS]

  relative to everything else was going to significantly outgrows the app that [TS]

  you've been working on for years and thinking about for even longer and that [TS]

  you want to keep working on for years to come [TS]

  and that that seemed to really get to you yeah I mean you know it is really it [TS]

  is impossible to to understate how little code there isn't peace like [TS]

  people who has a bunch of angry responses were on the lines of the only [TS]

  responsible thing for you to do is to open sources who abandoned it and first [TS]

  of all I can't because it has good story to tell you I don't have the rights to [TS]

  but but the actual application code that is not just the database of sites is so [TS]

  tiny it there's almost no code there because Apple basically made this entire [TS]

  content blocking framework to be really officially designed to create a blockers [TS]

  and so that's why I assume from the beginning I assume that mine wouldn't [TS]

  get significant traction [TS]

  assume there'll be tons of them outright on day one and and there were a handful [TS]

  but not nearly as many as I expected but yeah but I did you know the reality was [TS]

  that the the iOS ad blocker business is not a technical challenge at all it is I [TS]

  mean I suppose if you've never made a nap before it's as challenging as making [TS]

  any other kind of a but if you are if you are a an experienced app developer [TS]

  you can crap out of content locker in a week or less you can do it a couple days [TS]

  I mean it it is so easy to do and it is therefore not intellectually stimulating [TS]

  it's not satisfying really beyond you know the first couple days then it's [TS]

  just great work and it just keeping up the database which is really boring and [TS]

  which is not programming [TS]

  and it's not intellectually valuable it is it is not stimulating if you desire [TS]

  that kind of intellectual satisfaction so where the overcast is full of really [TS]

  satisfying complex technical problems that require my brain to be really [TS]

  working out of the best to solve properly and that is incredibly [TS]

  satisfying to me and I and i would i would much rather work on that you have [TS]

  the number to know how many ATP listeners listen to be overcast I don't [TS]

  know if it's something like sixty percent it's it's an it's an improper [TS]

  close to that from me because I do get those numbers from SoundCloud where I [TS]

  host the idea [TS]

  forget how to cook around get it [TS]

  overcast number one even more in second place is apple core media iPhone which [TS]

  99% sure translates to the built-in podcast app yet also add it also [TS]

  includes like anything with a B player so if you if you if you're playing a web [TS]

  page in bed or certain podcast apps actually report themselves as that [TS]

  because they don't change it or they can't reach that that part of the API [TS]

  with the level the playing at so there will be included in there for me it's a [TS]

  little it's a rate of 50% 60% but note no surprise that it's more like sixty [TS]

  four you wrote that but it is actually about fifty yeah that's right [TS]

  9.92 13 episodes ago if people are timed it so yeah I'm up there [TS]

  change it to a month [TS]

  yeah actually it even more actually look bigger in Texas amor ya saben a [TS]

  deposition last seven days so if you count the whole month which gets to all [TS]

  the people who listen right away and I think it under samples the people of the [TS]

  last seven days because the biggest fans of the show listener new and so in the [TS]

  last seven days so it really really overwhelmingly number one for my [TS]

  listeners and if anybody out there has been curious about I really do recommend [TS]

  not just cuz markers on the show today but it's my favorite after listening to [TS]

  podcasts I'm really good at promotion so here I am talking about the app that I [TS]

  just pulled off the store for two hours while I'm gonna ship overcast 2.0 pretty [TS]

  soon and I'm not gonna be right back on to talk about that in like three weeks [TS]

  or whatever I'm really not good at the promotion yeah you're not good at all [TS]

  the big future in overcast to point out is this streaming engine which is in a [TS]

  patient just letting you listen to stuff right away and said i download the whole [TS]

  episode it's really more of like a just play just it's a good just play [TS]

  interface so whether you care about stream if you think you care about [TS]

  streaming Pakistan not if you've ever been frustrated because you wanted to [TS]

  start playing something but it didn't download in the background it just you [TS]

  just got the alert that the new episode of hello internet is out right away it [TS]

  just means they hit the play button and it'll just our play that so many people [TS]

  it when i when i was talking you know year ago and white house gmail is going [TS]

  to be a big deal I i didnt even including 1.0 because I knew that he [TS]

  would need it I heard from so many people who said please don't work on [TS]

  that please do other things because I don't care about streaming and granted I [TS]

  heard from way more people who said I won't use this until it has streaming [TS]

  which was you know the more common in motion by far but a lot of people just [TS]

  keep saying I don't need it I will never use it but the reality is it is really [TS]

  nice to have for those times when you know what you said an episode just came [TS]

  out or just came in you guys got you saved it and you want to start listening [TS]

  to it right now and podcast can be you know 5800 [TS]

  bags and not every si tienes fast and not every connection that you might have [TS]

  this fast and so a lot of times you know if you if you have to wait for the whole [TS]

  podcast download you know it might take ten twenty seconds are my take five or [TS]

  10 minutes no matter what it takes is fueling an eternity as you're sitting [TS]

  there watching this stupid down than 1% 2% [TS]

  oh my god I wanna listen to it now and so like streaming really makes [TS]

  everything a little bit better and it and it enables a bunch of little stuff [TS]

  like it enables me to although I haven't done this yet to put the put a play [TS]

  button on the notifications for new episodes that you can just start playing [TS]

  immediately and stuff like that just like there are so many new little things [TS]

  that it makes possible and so many old things that makes better cuz right now [TS]

  with streaming now you can just as long as you are connected somehow you can tap [TS]

  on any episode any list whether you have it or not and it started to start [TS]

  playing and it's one of those things worse again the absolutist position it [TS]

  just doesn't work in software design where you wana sale nope no settings [TS]

  whatsoever [TS]

  the app gonna make all the choices for the user and doing right way or you [TS]

  could say everything should be configurable and and the user's be able [TS]

  to configure everything on both of those extremes are absurd and if you think [TS]

  you're sticking to them you're fooling yourself the right way to think about it [TS]

  is you do have kinda have to pick which side of the 50 yard line gonna be on [TS]

  this sort of app where you're going to default to not offering options and [TS]

  configurability and maybe you know you'll wind up not having enough options [TS]

  are you gonna default to saying yes to most things and having options for [TS]

  things and you know you're going to wind up with a complex number of settings and [TS]

  and you know one way or the other you know you're gonna disappoint some users [TS]

  I clearly you Marco Arment err on the side of not offering too many options [TS]

  stuff that you build I mean and peace was canonical example of that but you [TS]

  have to you talk to others and ATP there have to be some settings for streaming [TS]

  because it's different people have it around the world even maybe even within [TS]

  the country even just in the united states have incredibly different [TS]

  situations with intolerant levels for data charges right there's people who [TS]

  are living in countries where you know they're they're online database you know [TS]

  their online data is still measured in megabytes not gigabyte or people who are [TS]

  traveling internationally and on an international data plan and you measured [TS]

  in megabytes and gigabytes what you know [TS]

  25 megabyte data plan you cannot download an episode of the talk show [TS]

  over cellular unless you wanna pay overage charges but then there's plenty [TS]

  of other people who have unlimited data or virtually unlimited data [TS]

  you know with you know 15 or 20 gigabytes a month and a hundred and [TS]

  fifty megabyte podcast is no big deal and they want to download it there so [TS]

  they have to be settings and the funny thing is like going back to our earlier [TS]

  conversation I i really sweat a lot of the details around this stuff to try to [TS]

  minimize data transfer meanwhile you view a couple of web pages on a big site [TS]

  and that's as much the podcast episode it is it's some of the defect that [TS]

  people are measuring these things now I've always known things are big and [TS]

  that some sites are obviously serving too much data compared to what you know [TS]

  something I if it's an article I just want to read it should not be measured [TS]

  in megabytes but now that people are actually measuring it while they test [TS]

  this content blockers it was like holy crap no wonder when I was in Ireland for [TS]

  all that I mowed through my hundred megabytes data plan of while I thought I [TS]

  was being [TS]

  you know conservative with how much I used my phone I thought you know hey I'm [TS]

  just glad I just read a couple articles on Techmeme and see if there's anything [TS]

  new going on the 101 page on the verge load 7 megabytes [TS]

  yeah you see all these all these reports are like pages seven megs 9:30 [TS]

  megabus.com likes some create it's like a podcast episode is like 30 to 50 megs [TS]

  usually like that's that's eight ten web pages maybe it's not that's really [TS]

  scared it's really scary and really said venue ASOS dreaming I dunno I've [TS]

  actually offered by offering very few options on we'll see how it plays out [TS]

  again and you can't use the absolute positions never work as always gonna be [TS]

  realities and also market pressures that said in so I'm trying to have as few [TS]

  settings possible to still make it good but of course everyone's trying that [TS]

  everyone I can't trust that live in different places I think the biggest [TS]

  thing is to try to avoid surprise right now with the way it works right now is [TS]

  probably going to ship is if you choose to stream something it will always allow [TS]

  it to use cellular in that case and the rationale there is that will that's how [TS]

  everything else works you know if you let a web page it doesn't ask it doesn't [TS]

  say waiting for WiFi you know it's just if you click on a link to load a webpage [TS]

  it just loads it by whatever connection has available and if you want to [TS]

  restrict apps tonight you so you can do that globally in settings you can say [TS]

  per app you can go to overcast in the system so you can say just never let us [TS]

  have to use any sort of like the switch right there you can do a lot of people [TS]

  do and so all I have to do is I don't have to cover the case of people who [TS]

  want the app to use no cell data does the system covers that I have to cover [TS]

  the case of people who want to use it sometimes or or want to use it always [TS]

  and so the way everything else works web pages more importantly stuff like [TS]

  YouTube if you was obviously massive that is the entire internet too [TS]

  people like your son and lots of other people in the world but that's a big [TS]

  deal you know YouTube if you are on cellular data and you long to YouTube [TS]

  thing and go view of your YouTube video it just plays it it streams it and it [TS]

  plays it over Celta that's fine if you go play a song these days you're [TS]

  probably playing off cell data of people listening to songs like the idea of like [TS]

  having to like prompt the user or make a lot of granular settings for when do you [TS]

  sell data i think is outdated and and so now I think I can get away with the [TS]

  current options that I have which is literally a just ahead on streaming cuz [TS]

  you initiate that by you the user said play this now and so in my opinion then [TS]

  you don't have to ask are you sure you have played over Celtic is your son Eric [TS]

  know these days you know what year is this you play it now and then the only [TS]

  option I have is whether automatic background downloads should use cellular [TS]

  began its default off so that's the army back on down will default to wi-fi only [TS]

  because in that case it's like well you didn't initiate this came in outside [TS]

  your control could come in the middle of the night you when you were asleep and [TS]

  your iPad download entire episode of Mad Men and burn through your whole heart [TS]

  present get that could have happened so you know that that is a preference to me [TS]

  that is like ok do do you have so much data that you always want the the the [TS]

  app to use much of it as it needs to do or do you want to be easily used on [TS]

  demand that seems about right that seems right let the automatic stuff still wifi [TS]

  let the user initiated tough play yeah and you know you're never going to win [TS]

  some is going to complain but I think in general it's actually your logic is [TS]

  completely corrected if the user hit play and they have a working network [TS]

  connection they mean play right that's how I know podcast apps historically [TS]

  have not worked that way always like they've offered we're going to control [TS]

  but I'm not see I'm not looking at what other podcast after doing to solve this [TS]

  problem i'm looking at what other apps are doing not pocket like just what what [TS]

  people expect based on the reality of other apt existence [TS]

  Universe Today and what that is these days is a lot of streaming media and it [TS]

  and it just use a cellular when it needs to ask you [TS]

  yeah I think part of it too is that things have changed so quickly and so [TS]

  few years and that streaming in general is just become a huge phenomenon but [TS]

  podcasting started back in the name even says you know it's the iPad iPod [TS]

  broadcasting from a time when you downloaded stuff first [TS]

  USB and that it was a big deal and they had cast episode ratings you had to wait [TS]

  for while they downloaded cuz they were big whereas you know it's not that big [TS]

  anymore and you know most people are an awful lot of people have cellular [TS]

  network connections that handle it easily as they can handle video video [TS]

  and audio easily exactly you know so and there was also a implementation details [TS]

  that were tricky problems like one of them is if you're on cellular how much [TS]

  should the streamer read ahead of the file like should should just keep [TS]

  downloading tool has the whole thing or should only buffer ahead like five [TS]

  minutes worth at a time you know and and so on and the decision came to on that [TS]

  is it reaches down as much as I can never feel like it so if you if you [TS]

  start an episode of playing over cellular in streaming it will download [TS]

  as much as I can until the connection drops or until it finishes the file [TS]

  that's because any other solution that I thought of and tried would fail in other [TS]

  ways like it would it would be inconvenient or annoying I wouldn't be [TS]

  what I wanted into situations and the fact is an entire podcast episode I know [TS]

  most people who listen to podcasts are listening to shows like this that are [TS]

  two hours long [TS]

  most people are listening to stuff like you know public radio shows that are [TS]

  maybe twenty thirty minutes [TS]

  and so those are like 15 mags 20 megs like they really small files and that's [TS]

  like two verge articles so it's no big deal to buffer head whereas it is a big [TS]

  deal if somebody is driving along Highway trip and are counting on [TS]

  streaming to play their their podcast for them and they lose reception for a [TS]

  few minutes of the mountains and the show they were downloading just drops [TS]

  because it didn't buffer had enough and it could have had the connection back [TS]

  there could have the whole show had plenty of time to download it and it [TS]

  just didn't you know so their situation like that or you know more commonly like [TS]

  if you're on a metro system as underground stuff like that so it's it [TS]

  was better that again another decision that if I make that decision [TS]

  five years ago ten years ago I would have probably made differently but you [TS]

  know now this is this is the area where things stream and it's not a big deal [TS]

  and if you need to really restrict the amount of data did you use you have to [TS]

  you consciously download media for offline use and then like you know and [TS]

  and avoid at least two meetings or go to the System Settings app internal sailor [TS]

  for all these apps I think you're on the right track that is going to be hit me [TS]

  take one last break here and hit the money button once again thank our our [TS]

  fourth and final sponsored longtime friends of the show [TS]

  longtime friend of ATP as well igloo igloo software dot com slash the talk [TS]

  show or / what's what you know your code is off and just ATP ATP I figured out a [TS]

  glue is the internet in truck net that you'll actually like I love that slogan [TS]

  that lets you share news organize your files coordinate counters manage [TS]

  projects set up a little micro blog think that it's like a little internal [TS]

  like a private Twitter imagine if you had little Twitter for your team that [TS]

  you could use just for internal stuff they can't go public can be shared [TS]

  publicly [TS]

  igloo has a sort of feature built right in their latest upgrade they call it [TS]

  Viking I guess it's a good code-named the big push they had this summer for [TS]

  faking around documents in how you and your team interact with them gather [TS]

  feedback changes in a lot of businesses good old-fashioned document real files [TS]

  they have to share with each other not just things that live online as URLs but [TS]

  real files still big part of the business big part of the real world so [TS]

  they've really really upped their game on that sort of stuff and they've added [TS]

  the equivalent of read receives an email so you know when somebody seen it now [TS]

  doesn't want before you turn it's just like a read receipt don't ask that you [TS]

  turn it on and if it's an important things some kind of thing you have to [TS]

  get sign off on put that on share it then you can see that everybody needs to [TS]

  see it has really really important for certain legal agreement and in certain [TS]

  cases if you don't need it you don't have to worry about it but if you do [TS]

  need it [TS]

  igloo is can be part of your game now when it couldn't before [TS]

  big big part of their push if your company has a legacy internet that looks [TS]

  like it was built in the nineties that's because it probably was very very true [TS]

  you should give it a try here's the thing that's the most amazing about it I [TS]

  I keep waiting for the stand and it hasn't ended up to 10 users you can use [TS]

  a glue for free so if you're a really small team or if you have a really small [TS]

  company it's under ten employees it is just free it's free not for a month it's [TS]

  just free if you have more than 10 people you can try it out right now for [TS]

  free it include software dot com slash the talk-show tried out for free with up [TS]

  to 10 of your colleagues just to see that it works get it setup configure it [TS]

  the way you want it to work [TS]

  tested out and until you're satisfied with it you don't have to pay for [TS]

  anything and then when you are satisfied you go and they have very very low [TS]

  prices for per-user over 10 [TS]

  that's the way they work free for up to 10 over ten you pay a very very [TS]

  reasonable very competitive number of dollars per user so go check them out [TS]

  longtime friends of the show people keep writing to me I get a lot of mail from [TS]

  people saying they signed up for a very very happy with it could offer has been [TS]

  their admin you know they started when they started years ago they they got [TS]

  sandwich to make videos for you they were they were really they've been [TS]

  progressively from the store [TS]

  yeah they did like TV commercials with sandwich it's tough I don't have much [TS]

  time we've been going on forever and we always go along and we haven't gone too [TS]

  terribly long but we don't have a lot of time I guess we can just briefly briefly [TS]

  talked about the new iPhone is now you've got one yeah we get to announce [TS]

  now so what did you guys get success she got going up black and no no [TS]

  pluses now and we went 16 gigs for you know I think you guys have been more [TS]

  more critical of the 16 gig then I have your your you are more convinced that [TS]

  it's an upsell products marketing I don't know that it's it's it's not that [TS]

  they want to make higher margins on the 16 Gigabyte front it's that they want to [TS]

  make higher margins because there's enough people out there who would if if [TS]

  they if the bottom line was 32 and 16 they would buy that 32 but they know [TS]

  that 16 isn't enough so they do bite the bullet and buy 64 and that's an entire [TS]

  $100 extra hundred dollars in revenue and probably close to $100 in you know [TS]

  in margin correct i mean you know you can look at something as you know well [TS]

  there is there's lots of justifications for this you can look at it you know [TS]

  there's there's reasons like you know like there was on here and he explained [TS]

  a lot of justifications for why this works is also hurting other people when [TS]

  I work with people who are saying well you know this is for bodies for business [TS]

  by you know thousands for employees or whatever and we don't need them to have [TS]

  more space which i think is a terrible argument and you could you know you can [TS]

  apply to the need cameras do they need like a headphone jack off a lot of [TS]

  things so there's a lot of bad justifications for it but I think [TS]

  separating justifications from reasons is important and I think the main reason [TS]

  for it is it is not it is not necessarily to to make the extra couple [TS]

  of dollars of margin in the sixteen your little it's that they're selling so many [TS]

  more of the sixty four's that it is most likely having a significant boost on the [TS]

  average selling price and when you're talking about the most profitable [TS]

  product of the most profitable company like a significant boost to the average [TS]

  selling price of their best selling product is massively important that is a [TS]

  big deal to them and they don't always do what's a hundred percent better for [TS]

  customers always a balancing act you know it's it's you know they they they [TS]

  will they're happy to charge $45 for you know a leather case that they could sell [TS]

  for a lot less you know stuff like that like you know they they're not totally a [TS]

  charity here they're doing stuff as a balance between satisfaction and profit [TS]

  and I did this one of those things were in my opinion they've chosen Braun I [TS]

  think they have not bounced this correctly in this case that I i think [TS]

  that the long-term costs to satisfaction and to the the load it places on support [TS]

  on the Genius Bar the problems people face with their full phones and trying [TS]

  to manage storage themselves as you know I i think all these things are are poor [TS]

  balance of futility vs vs profit and I would say the same thing about you know [TS]

  other things like the the iCloud storage tier pricing [TS]

  just got better but still not great you know there's there's problems like this [TS]

  without Paul and most of the stuff they do is a pretty good value but but [TS]

  there's there's alleges like this where you can just kinda tell oh yeah this is [TS]

  Vegas did this because [TS]

  this would be a massive difference in profit [TS]

  yeah and I it's we I i cant help it has to change this year though who knows I [TS]

  keep thinking well next year when they go to the 752 up the minimum 232 and the [TS]

  OS isn't gonna get bigger so it'll just mean that there's a lot more free space [TS]

  for everybody and I think to myself and I've had won a bet on that because maybe [TS]

  you know they've had it in the thing I can think about is if they did it again [TS]

  gone from the 6th to the success with the exact same split and they changed so [TS]

  much other stuff they changed the actual aluminum alloy they make the things out [TS]

  of so it's not like they're afraid to change stuff in it also seems like they [TS]

  changed the flash point saying it's much faster [TS]

  yes and and whether that's because it's the component or at least the like was [TS]

  at Ars Technica I think that had this tax code that the storage controller is [TS]

  new and is now more like you know it effectively like a MacBook storage [TS]

  controller so it's it's a serious upgrade it is in addition to like the [TS]

  CPU and GPU benchmarks being equivalent to the met the MacBook 1 it really seems [TS]

  like they've upped their storage performance in the way they treat [TS]

  storage 22 laptop MacBook quality engineering which is again it's a crazy [TS]

  big change this whole notion that the ass ones are just minor revisions to [TS]

  really really crazy I think of anything in my review I think I undersold this [TS]

  this new theory I have which is that it takes Johnny Ives team two years ago got [TS]

  this boil down to a good now takes two years to come up with it would they [TS]

  think is a superior design as in this is what it looks like this is the basic [TS]

  gist of the you know it's going to have this these sized screens with this pixel [TS]

  resolution and there's gonna be a button down here that you then that'll be a [TS]

  bigger now a fingerprint center [TS]

  these are the button to these sizes and then you know somebody you know the [TS]

  engineering teams have to do that will how do we make this and because it takes [TS]

  two years for these new designs to come out and because two years is good pace [TS]

  for them for new designs for product marketing reasons anyway it means that [TS]

  the engineering teams get two cracks at they get the first crack which is how [TS]

  can we make this you know to hit the ship date and you know and then they get [TS]

  a second tyre year after that to ok how can we do it how can we make that design [TS]

  even better and in terms of you know they rethink everything every single [TS]

  thing you touch on this iPhone is a different material than than last year's [TS]

  I mean maybe the rubber gaskets that cover the antennas are the are the same [TS]

  material but it's a new aluminum minutes in a new glass so if they wanted to [TS]

  change them in room 232 they could have done it and I just keep thinking about [TS]

  the fact that if if the customer satisfaction [TS]

  downside to the 16 gig minimum where is significant enough to to worry them they [TS]

  would have changed it that they could have seen those numbers last year early [TS]

  on and we've got you know that that's a thing that I think that they could have [TS]

  changed [TS]

  say between last December and this September and I think a lot of it is [TS]

  locked down here in advance but they could have gained momentum [TS]

  I do worry a little bit you know we've seen I think I think in the Tim Cook era [TS]

  of Apple I think it's safe to say based on our observations from the outside and [TS]

  similar statements I think it's probably safe to assume that they are more data [TS]

  driven and they used to be like with Steve it was like you know it was very [TS]

  much still based on Steve's intuitions to a large degree right and and you know [TS]

  tim is very much is much more data driven and so the that's showing in the [TS]

  company and I worry one of the things that came up from various Apple people [TS]

  that I spoke with more than I heard from one of the things that came up during [TS]

  the the function of high ground thing is that about half of Apple was like Oh my [TS]

  God thank you for finally saying that I've been trying to convince higher-ups [TS]

  for years that we need to slow down and fix things [TS]

  and and the other part I heard was that a lot of this was catching higher-ups by [TS]

  surprise that that they thought they were doing better than what I thought [TS]

  and what a lot of other people thought and and this is very much a metric [TS]

  German company I would go even further than that and I i when I heard wasn't [TS]

  just that that side of the company thought they were doing better than what [TS]

  you and others [TS]

  yeah I hear ya that's right they they honestly and truly believe believed and [TS]

  maybe he'll continue believe that they're doing better on software quality [TS]

  than ever before in the company's history not just that they were doing [TS]

  okay that they were doing better than ever right and so my concern is two-fold [TS]

  first of all the fact that that there's a massive discount of opinion there is [TS]

  right that shows a problem somewhere online that should be considered but my [TS]

  main concern is that we we can see definitely that they are way more [TS]

  metrics driven a number of different than they have been before that there [TS]

  that is the new culture of apple and and it has brought a lot of positives and [TS]

  this is one that i think is is certainly positive in some areas but it also has [TS]

  risk they have to look out for am Not sure if a balanced one of the biggest [TS]

  risk is you have to make sure you're measuring the right numbers you know and [TS]

  and you know whatever metrics you are collecting is that the whole picture and [TS]

  also what ever mention you're collecting will first of all they will be gained by [TS]

  internal people within the company like internal departments will gain the [TS]

  metrics because they have to be cut up the pressure that is put on them and [TS]

  when they have to start making decisions about difficult things to cut or to put [TS]

  off or whatever you know they know what metrics they're judged on and so people [TS]

  will gain metrics that it's the way that you know and I know you're not a big [TS]

  sports fan but it's the reason that every single team sport with the ball [TS]

  has what seems to be from an outsider a complex set of rules I get the more you [TS]

  learn about baseball the more you think these rules are crazy but it's all about [TS]

  the fact that if the game is about [TS]

  you know how many people cross home plate and touch home plate that if these [TS]

  rules were in place people teams will do whatever they could within the rules [TS]

  that are in place to game the game right everything gets game during your exam [TS]

  and ties into the advertising discussion we had four hours ago so it so I do [TS]

  worry that Apple is is putting all this emphasis internally on metrics I wonder [TS]

  what they're missing and because we we've seen already you know with the [TS]

  high ground than we've seen that there are things that missing and then they [TS]

  need to be shown that sometimes from the outside and and part of the reason why [TS]

  complain so much about certain things Apple does is because I know that that [TS]

  outside voices like ours can affect things internally usually whatever we [TS]

  are arguing about outside somebody inside is arguing about to I think [TS]

  there's outside support for one viewpoint of the other week and we can [TS]

  be giving ammunition to the side that we want to win the fight [TS]

  yeah I think that the whole discovery thing was a perfect example of the type [TS]

  of tenants slip through their metrics I mean one of the things I know that they [TS]

  were thinking about where crash reports and that there's this whole opt-in [TS]

  system that apple i think is very very upfront about and in fact there may even [TS]

  be to upfront about it because it when you upgrade your OS on systems you have [TS]

  to always reluctant to these things they they might even ask they might they [TS]

  might even err on the side of asking too many times you know you sure you want to [TS]

  let us have location services enabled on this device even if you said it already [TS]

  you just upgraded to a major new version of the OS two gonna ask you again so the [TS]

  they know that most of the overwhelming majority of users on the Mac Mac and I [TS]

  was popped into the will you send us the crash reports and stuff like that for [TS]

  helping us make things better and that's one of the things that they've measured [TS]

  and one of the things that they know has gone way down in recent years is [TS]

  crashing [TS]

  I anecdotally that feels true to me as well [TS]

  fewer and fewer apps crash in terms of just disappearing in getting the [TS]

  and especially if I'd and daring and I'm not measuring thing about just in my [TS]

  mind almost all the crashes I see nowadays americorps from beta software [TS]

  that I'm testing and that I expect to crash it feels to me like apps crash [TS]

  last specially Apple's apps yeah I'd say right and the discovery do you think all [TS]

  of the various problems that people have seen from it are the type of things that [TS]

  there aren't crashes they're just weird silent failures you know like when the [TS]

  printer that I've been using for the last four years and the only printer I [TS]

  use and I hit command P and nothing ever comes out of it and I go over to the [TS]

  thing with the Red Badge in my doc and it just says cannot be found and they go [TS]

  to this thing and the system settings and try to configure the printer and I [TS]

  can't configure it and I just sit here and I see if any can print and she can [TS]

  print but I can't it doesn't even see the printer and then I just turn the [TS]

  printer off and on and back on again and now we're all just works but I haven't [TS]

  updated anything on my printer that's for damn sure the printer hasn't changed [TS]

  at all that never gets reported that Apple that never get there is no crash [TS]

  log they get sent there is no I you know syria heard John cursing in his office [TS]

  about the printer that never heard it doesn't register right as a sort of [TS]

  thing that you just kind of have to kind of have to play by field and internally [TS]

  have to be like hey guys this is a shitshow this Apple TV keeps calling [TS]

  itself Apple TV print the season 13 and then playing it by feel that as we all [TS]

  know that was one of steve's greatest strengths that he was like he was really [TS]

  on point and yet he wasn't always perfect but his track record was pretty [TS]

  good in playing it by feel and and so you know when when you move to this [TS]

  metric system you have to both a makes you know you have to be on the lookout [TS]

  for gaming and try to reduce it or eliminate incentives for it [TS]

  we whenever possible and that's that's an ongoing constant constant battle and [TS]

  be you have to really makes you have to look at like what do the metrics not [TS]

  include what what where the blind spots of these metrics of these metrics and [TS]

  every set of metrics is gonna have massive line spots and and that is where [TS]

  I think there is still room for improvement there and CEO of Apple is [TS]

  measuring their their beloved customer sat in ways that that showed the 16 gig [TS]

  is is not a problem for most of the people who have it i mean you know they [TS]

  have a have way more data than we do so they could be right that could be true [TS]

  most of the things Apple says are you know our service level in the face of it [TS]

  truly [TS]

  you know like but my blog post there was no deeper meaning like most of the [TS]

  things you always say most of the couple says are pretty straightforward and true [TS]

  but this is one of those cases where if they keep saying that 16 gig is fine if [TS]

  people are happy enough with it that is in really stark contrast and [TS]

  disagreement to what I and everyone I know sees anecdotally from our friends [TS]

  and relatives who have 16 gig phones and and like I love like one under for David [TS]

  Smith put his analysis of free space that was that was great adventures like [TS]

  actual broad data set from people who aren't all nerds who have you know how [TS]

  much free space they actually have and how many and you know we all everyone [TS]

  who's been around other people with iPhones we've all known people who like [TS]

  they go to take a picture of our phones fall or get a message via phone is full [TS]

  or there i cud story just full and I have no idea what to do about that [TS]

  exactly and you know I S storage management has never been particularly [TS]

  easy or obvious and how to do it you know there's all these all these [TS]

  problems people have people who are stuck on all devices like that and they [TS]

  learned big time with how low the adoption rate was if I was 8 compared to [TS]

  previous releases because they had all these eight and 16 gig phone that didn't [TS]

  have space to install it and they just never people just never install it I [TS]

  would I would say actually I think that the way that I was still sore storage [TS]

  now [TS]

  terms of dealing with a low storage situation is actually better than it's [TS]

  ever been and better than anything on the back and in terms of the Mac you're [TS]

  dealing with the finder and you've already lost most people fire filesystem [TS]

  applause them and so the way that you can go into settings now interview least [TS]

  Google enough you can probably get someone to tell you know go to Settings [TS]

  General good usage and it'll show you which apps are using how much data and [TS]

  then you can do something right there and deal with it that's actually pretty [TS]

  good about its good just blaming the whole app you know here this app is [TS]

  using for gigabyte is about as good as it's gonna get from for mass-market [TS]

  typical people but you most people are gonna get that far I just linked to a [TS]

  thing before I started recording today that around the world there's like five [TS]

  or six percent of Facebook users don't know that they're using the internet [TS]

  when they let you go around and pull people and see how much do you use the [TS]

  internet and you get you know forty percent and then to use Facebook and its [TS]

  like 60 percent or how is it really possible they're obviously misinform but [TS]

  if you're surprised that there are that many people who don't realize the face [TS]

  on the internet you really just don't understand how I'm technical people are [TS]

  you know then it is not to say that they're not intelligent they just don't [TS]

  they might be unintelligent but it might just be the day or not technically [TS]

  inclined and decreasing relevance of the web [TS]

  very possible very possible like the date and and and combine that with the [TS]

  age old genius of Microsoft branding their browser Internet Explorer which [TS]

  made people think that that was the internet which was very purposeful and [TS]

  again gets tied into like the whole joe camel marketing angle you know marketing [TS]

  is evil you know from earlier in the show [TS]

  that was very deliberate and they know they're not using the thing that the [TS]

  internet because they're not using the browser and so therefore they're not [TS]

  using the internet that's just that's just the loose way people think about [TS]

  things and it speaks to the genius of modern smartphones that they're able to [TS]

  do so much and share so much and be so engaged by not really understanding the [TS]

  underlying technology at all but you know therefore if you're surprised that [TS]

  people some number of people by 16 gigabyte phones and have no idea that [TS]

  there something you know they're doing themselves a great disservice it it's [TS]

  not their fault they that this is the bottom gets people like you say people I [TS]

  know there's people just people who are out there its rage swearing at us [TS]

  listening to the podcast saying you know my company by 16 just fine because we do [TS]

  but if Apple wants to sell them to the enterprise fund some directly to the [TS]

  enterprise but don't sell them in retail stores to consumers because underscores [TS]

  data shows that somewhere around 37% of those people have at least by his users [TS]

  of his but I think it very very possible that that's let's call it one in three [TS]

  so we'll even air on the you know underscore says 37 will call it 30 31 [TS]

  percent of the people with 16 gigabytes iPhones have under 1 gigabyte of space [TS]

  available which is really really some of them have you know really low under one [TS]

  gigabyte but if you don't even have one gigabyte available you're really in [TS]

  trouble for a lot of little things like a lot of things just aren't failing at [TS]

  that point I like having the room to download a hundred and fifty megabyte [TS]

  podcast that you wanna listen to or to record video like the thing that he [TS]

  showed that his wife got when she took up the camera and she could not record [TS]

  video because there wasn't enough space and you know it it really meant the [TS]

  other thing you look at his stats is so the next step up now 64 and you look at [TS]

  how many people with 64 gigabytes of storage problems and it's effectively [TS]

  yeah I mean the sad thing is you know I heard rumblings here and there from [TS]

  various tipsters some of us have no credibility heard rumblings that they [TS]

  are finally going to fix this next year and with the iPhone seven it's going to [TS]

  start either 32 or even 64 [TS]

  I worry though but by the time if they ever move up to 32 maybe that's gonna be [TS]

  too small but you know cuz you know the point of this it's very much like when [TS]

  when you're designing a nap with a pay wall and I have never guessed you know [TS]

  when you're doing that with a payroll of some sort whether it's a free trial with [TS]

  you know shareware style unlock all features whatever the idea is to put [TS]

  that wall and at a threshold sucks that you're creating a small pain point for [TS]

  people so that they won't like frustratingly quickly wrap and sable as [TS]

  you can even try it but you have to create that pain that pain point at such [TS]

  a place where most people will reasonably run into it a few times and a [TS]

  good percentage of those people will run into it enough that it pushes them it [TS]

  motivates them into paying and I use the term pain point here intentionally get [TS]

  it this is like you're causing inconvenience or you're making people [TS]

  like a wallet unpleasant they want to go past because if you don't do that if you [TS]

  are too generous with what you give away for free [TS]

  effectively nobody buys it is one of the things like absent have ads by default [TS]

  and you can pay to remove the ads historically those have very very low [TS]

  payment rates almost no you know effectively almost nobody pays to remove [TS]

  at me too but we're weird you know most people are just like well okay I'll take [TS]

  the end like that isn't enough pain point or if you say like you know [TS]

  suppose you're I suppose with overcast if I said well in order to subscribe to [TS]

  more than 33 podcast you have to unlock the the pay thing well most people [TS]

  subscribe to like to podcasts or one-and-a-half podcast something that [TS]

  average so far they would even hit that and then I would create this horrible [TS]

  and sent [TS]

  for people not to try out new show so so like that that's why I don't limit that [TS]

  the things but I don't get that and so you know with apple and when their [TS]

  pricing their products when they're designing the tears of deciding what [TS]

  what the storage tiers or whatever the the product lines you know where does [TS]

  the mini run into the air wearers the air now into the Pro we're on the [TS]

  MacBooks how do you know where the size boundaries lie and what capabilities do [TS]

  you have to move up to get at each stage like all these things are designed to [TS]

  try to place those those barriers in those limits and those boundary between [TS]

  classes between price levels try to place them at a point where you're going [TS]

  to capture a lot more value from a lot of people who are going to hit those [TS]

  barriers and are going to want to push past about paying you more money that is [TS]

  the whole point if they if if Apple did their job badly they would give away too [TS]

  much for free that the low it but Apple trust do their job well and they're very [TS]

  very good that most of the time so when I like these these storage tiers are [TS]

  designed specifically to maximize that look at the iPad and iPad pro I was just [TS]

  about to and 128 right and in the 128 is so we are only available Mon 28 right so [TS]

  there's only three available you can refer $7.99 $77.99 you can get a 32 [TS]

  gigabyte no cellular 49 49 you can get a hundred and twenty eight gigs no [TS]

  cellular and infer 1079 their their usual $130 upgrade for the cellular you [TS]

  can get $128 those are the only three configurations available I actually [TS]

  think that's great I think it's great that it's a lot simpler they don't have [TS]

  three storage tiers it's just too you want the real on and let's face it the [TS]

  real one is the 122 want cellular not and the 32 totally makes sense in the [TS]

  context of industrial uses of the iPad Pro for the enterprise [TS]

  like single abuses yeah and I got us talking to doctor wave from Pixar you [TS]

  know they've been publicized this is public information secret that Apple was [TS]

  there at Pixar last week and letting their artists play with them and use [TS]

  them in and test the palm rejection which they were very pleased with myself [TS]

  very pleased they called it like near perfect but I guess it to him about the [TS]

  32 is when you go to go [TS]

  course because they don't store anything on it connected to their little internal [TS]

  internet and it's all stored on servers and so that they can share it and it's [TS]

  all there so the end of the extra storage should be completely and utterly [TS]

  wasted on them and it's also the lack of cellular is a feature because they don't [TS]

  want these things connected the cellular networks they want them connected only [TS]

  to their little internal network like that I didn't even talk to him about [TS]

  this but I know in the movie industry in general that whole thing where Sony got [TS]

  Act has really really upped their game on security and places like hospitals [TS]

  and stuff like that with all the HIPAA laws you know this configuration is [TS]

  perfect for them it is not you know if you're a consumer though you want them [TS]

  128 you probably want the moment so yeah I think it's very obvious and also the [TS]

  low end model 32 is a great little low end things where there's still plenty of [TS]

  space for things like software updates and temporary caches and deposits of [TS]

  iPad whereas a 16 gigabyte model on that would have been like it would be [TS]

  terrible yeah I like you know if I get one for various testing purposes I would [TS]

  get 32 because I wouldn't be like a power user of that right that feels like [TS]

  it's ok but just barely get to it does feel kind of weird to spend $900 on his [TS]

  high-end thing and then to not spend the extra hundred fifty or whatever to [TS]

  quadruple the story because this is the kind of thing you can never change you [TS]

  can never upgrade that stuff away are like it you can't undo that decision and [TS]

  and they know that when their pricing it and when they're deciding these they [TS]

  know that and they know that a certain percentage of people usually I would [TS]

  expect a pretty good one will rationalize that same thought it well [TS]

  I'm already spending [TS]

  850 to 950 or quadruple this thing that might be a problem for me in the future [TS]

  if I don't do it you know it the same thing without AppleCare know that this [TS]

  is a very telling that was work this is this is business so all this is a very [TS]

  long way to say I definitely still believe that the 16 gig phones are a [TS]

  decision to raise average selling price not because it is best for customers and [TS]

  and I don't necessarily even I'm not even that mad at them about it because [TS]

  you know that's a that's business that's that's the kind of decision that they [TS]

  have to make to be successful and every business person does this and you know [TS]

  Apple is not you know Santa Claus you know they their business and and they're [TS]

  gonna make money off the bus and we happily keep giving it to them and so [TS]

  they're obviously do something right they only do one last down with us the [TS]

  other thing that causes me to think about it a lot is that it's the it lab [TS]

  that the the repercussions of this last for at least three years because what it [TS]

  means is that next year the mid tier phone is going to be a 16 gigabyte [TS]

  started a 16 gigabyte iPhone success and then two years and now the free free [TS]

  with contract $99 found is going to be the iPhone success for 16 gigabytes is [TS]

  going to be brand new iPhone did some people are buying with 16 gigabytes [TS]

  going to be brand new iPhone did some people are buying with 16 gigabytes [TS]

  or at least the next three years they've been selling eighths at the lower end I [TS]

  think I don't know are they still now they worry they were before last week [TS]

  before last thelma 575 see how many gig yeah yeah so you know it's the fact that [TS]

  the minimum when the iPhone 5 CKD malice six made it you know I made a difference [TS]

  and a minimum now at least the minimum in the us- is 16 now in the 50 US yet [TS]

  they might sorry somewhere around the world but but that still means that it's [TS]

  going to be 16 though for awhile [TS]

  exactly i thought id I linked to it today and I don't want to repeat it I [TS]

  just tell people to go live you know you and I don't have this episode is pretty [TS]

  short Sofia Starr volatile afropop cassis and coalesce into its a great [TS]

  podcast in general but I really thought it was a fantastic episode of upgrade [TS]

  with Jason's now and Mike Hurley and they talked about upgrading to iOS nine [TS]

  and or or getting a new phone you buy a new iPhone you have an old iPhone you [TS]

  want to upgrade from here back up what an enormous pain in the ass that that [TS]

  really is an infant anything it's gotten worse over the years because the phones [TS]

  do so much more than a so much more permission and some of the things I [TS]

  totally understand I know it has to be that way it actually a feature that you [TS]

  have to redo your fingerprints that's actually good even though it's a little [TS]

  bit of a pain in the ass you have to reenter your credit cards I realized [TS]

  that actually feature because the credit card data is stored on a secure element [TS]

  and if it was a thing that they could just copy from one phone to another that [TS]

  wouldn't be very secure in the fact that it literally cannot be copied from there [TS]

  to here that's great so some of those things are obviously it can't be avoided [TS]

  but it takes so long and you end in it so indeterminate what you're waiting for [TS]

  like 2 June ran into the new upgrade when you get a new phone you upgrade [TS]

  from a backup yeah I do I do the iTunes backup and everything at this time I did [TS]

  it mostly seamlessly his phone came with a dead SIM cards so we had to swap the [TS]

  sim on that one and I had a I had the endless loop of [TS]

  of iCloud authentication dialog during the setup process problem with infertile [TS]

  couples mention that they ran to as well yeah everything that I like I did the [TS]

  whole thing or not impair the watch then back up the phone then restore to the [TS]

  new phone then repair the washington new phone and although it's been mostly ok [TS]

  it's I've gotten is down because and again this is not really complain it you [TS]

  know it's great that I get these reviewed in its and front two weeks [TS]

  earlier to write about them before other people I get to spend more time but now [TS]

  the day due to new phones here five C 56 and six plus in the success in six-plus [TS]

  I get to phone to test so there's two phones that have to go through this [TS]

  within an hour's by my own my own about my own I don't pay for my own personal [TS]

  use iPhone so that means I get a period of three weeks I do this with the [TS]

  refunds every year and then later in the fall I generally end up doing it with an [TS]

  iPad 2 so my bio I might buy my own iPad I don't buy an iPad every year but these [TS]

  tests want so I i do this without five or six devices every year a british [TS]

  people within a boy to do this more often because they're using test unit to [TS]

  the hardware so that people inside Apple have to know this and I think that if [TS]

  you do it like I do more than 12 year you're more the inadequacy of this [TS]

  system are in your face and I really any and now that they're selling a program [TS]

  to upgrade every year encouraging people to upgrade every year I really hope that [TS]

  that someone with an Apple there's a you know this is a high priority we really [TS]

  gotta streamline this was not a win but I was not aware that if you do the [TS]

  iCloud backup you still have to reenter all your passwords yeah yeah I come back [TS]

  I was not get it doesn't count as encrypted don't want to store your [TS]

  passwords [TS]

  keychain I think it's gonna be there long term solution around that which [TS]

  doesn't like it always keep someone device right it doesn't actually that's [TS]

  why you have to go to another device to approve it right but that's where the [TS]

  long-term goal of that but I think one thing that is that is very obvious here [TS]

  first of all is that like once again [TS]

  like sometimes sometimes stuff about the Apple watch kinda seems like it was [TS]

  developed like on a spaceship away from Apple a candidate like it just kind of [TS]

  got handed to them and it was done like there's certain things about it just [TS]

  like this is obviously like the rest of the company didn't see this are approved [TS]

  this before they got or like where this come from you know so there's certain [TS]

  things but I think obviously the weighty Apple watch deals with backing itself up [TS]

  to the iPhone and and moving it to a different phone it's very on Apple like [TS]

  if I can use a generalization is very much like this does not seem like it was [TS]

  wealthy Apple's whole thing is like the integration top-to-bottom they make [TS]

  everything they make the software to make the hard way to meet the services [TS]

  they make everything the way the Apple watch pairs and backs up to a phone or [TS]

  doesn't rather is it just seems like this like thing that was tacked on and [TS]

  it was not thought of with you know with integration in mind with the whole stack [TS]

  in mind with with what happens with your phone upgrade in mind and that seems [TS]

  like a massive oversight and hopefully as it was it's a 1.0 and they'll get to [TS]

  it because it does seem freaky weird that like by default your watch is not [TS]

  backing up to your phone [TS]

  ever it seems to only do when you run parent I think so yeah and if you so if [TS]

  you like wipe your old phone and while in the process of it's very easy to end [TS]

  up as a as an ideal Apple customer meaning ideal from Apple's perspective [TS]

  you're a big fan and when they when they release new things you just go out by [TS]

  the so you've already got Apple watch and you buy a new iPhone [TS]

  it's very very easy to wind up like like with a default factory installed watch [TS]

  again then like losing your activity data and that's a major like that could [TS]

  play as as a slacker who like barely hold together and exercise regime here [TS]

  like if I lost all my tv dinner that's a major demotivators to keep going because [TS]

  it's a holding when I get the idea that I've got this streak going [TS]

  the motivators like that should not be taken as lightly you know temporary data [TS]

  and with Alltel kid is like how how crazy is it that the watch a doesn't [TS]

  seem to back itself up at all and when it does back it up it doesn't back up to [TS]

  iCloud backup to just that local phone that is crazy they included a visit for [TS]

  a long time [TS]

  iCloud backups have adjusted for a long time before the watch why doesn't the [TS]

  watch regularly at night when it's plugged in [TS]

  just like the phone back it up to a club and you don't have I wanted the benefits [TS]

  of the watches that you just don't have much user-created data it's possible to [TS]

  have a lot of user-created data that you know but the stuff that is there the [TS]

  metrics [TS]

  biometrics and stuff like the fact that it's not and it's even just your [TS]

  settings and stuff is annoying to lose all that stuff if you understand how it [TS]

  works it makes sense why you have to first one parent with the old phone and [TS]

  then and then it makes sense why the unpaired takes five minutes because [TS]

  that's when the backup takes place so why does it take five minutes two [TS]

  unpaired your iPhone because that's when it backs up so that you can then restore [TS]

  it when you done within that makes some sense doesn't make you say well that to [TS]

  the head too clever design it just makes you say okay that's why it takes but if [TS]

  you don't know that why in the world would you ever on parent first why [TS]

  wouldn't you think as an apple customer I think it makes total customer comments [TS]

  sent that you adjusting about a new iPhone already have an iPod I'm gonna [TS]

  restore from a backup and then my new phone will be paired with my approach is [TS]

  that it that is what like you can totally see a bunch of people making [TS]

  that assumption totally reasonable and then if it's like popped up and said you [TS]

  know do you want to switch your Apple ID your Apple ID can only be paired [TS]

  one iPhone at a time would you like to switch to this new iPhone yes please [TS]

  okay and then you would expect that to maybe spend for a couple of seconds and [TS]

  then it would just work process it's you it's you know it's very much a 1.0 [TS]

  process it isn't unfortunately with the phone and the the the sad part of this [TS]

  to me that the discouraged in part of this to me is that most of this rests on [TS]

  the parts of Apple's infrastructure that I think have the most problems usually [TS]

  it's like the the store infrastructure not even not not necessarily like all of [TS]

  I thought about like the the backup and purchases part of it i think is really [TS]

  unrelated to the purchase of them in this all goes back to the store I hit [TS]

  the store this like that hole in the structure seems like it has frequent [TS]

  problems and frequent bugs and and all this seems to rest on that and iTunes so [TS]

  I I actually don't have incredibly high hopes of improving it's it's it's always [TS]

  very complex you know the way the way apple designs things as you said that [TS]

  you know with with the privacy in mind and with the security that they do a lot [TS]

  of these things are impossible to make significantly better you know like a lot [TS]

  of it like you know you you can't just transfer protected in your credit card [TS]

  data because it doesn't you actually can't do it with security and designs [TS]

  they have a lot of this stuff works in ways like that where the answer is just [TS]

  well to make this better we would have to become Google and we're not going to [TS]

  do that so it's just not going to get better and like for example like the one [TS]

  that you mentioned a couple minutes ago I know I saw it at least one of the [TS]

  times I was upgrading the phone the last few weeks and other people have seen it [TS]

  is this loop seeming loop of requests for your iCloud password [TS]

  yeah and you know and and it it just seems like it's so indeterminate was I [TS]

  enter it wrong I often do any wrong because during the password on that [TS]

  little keyboard and now you see the bullets it's very easy to make a mistake [TS]

  to a lot I'm pretty sure I have no doubt I've now seen as about three or four [TS]

  times indeed various restores everything and I haven't done any sure it's related [TS]

  to to thank her authentication because what it seems like it's doing is [TS]

  something is checking for your password [TS]

  very early on activation while the white screen still up and it is before the [TS]

  two-factor authorization is is requested properly in that screen so you can type [TS]

  in the right credentials at Spelling Bee is lacking to factor I think you're [TS]

  wrong or at least there's a way to get into it without to factor because i dont [TS]

  have to factor because it ok I don't maybe I should but probably well I don't [TS]

  because it seems like two factors such a pain in the ass and I don't want to go [TS]

  through it with all these I founder editor but I don't have it turned on on [TS]

  on my want apple I D and I know that I've seen this loop where I think I must [TS]

  have entered the password Bronx keeps asking me and then I do it very very [TS]

  carefully painstaking character of a time [TS]

  character the time and it still does it and then I think what is it the same [TS]

  service is it like six different services are queued up to get my lady [TS]

  and they can't share it because they're so siloed within the system or is it a [TS]

  bug is it should I keep entering it that's the question is am I supposed to [TS]

  keep entering this or am I just going in a circle here we're never gonna stop us [TS]

  also see when I it when I enter in this loop in action then shows me a second [TS]

  I'll I saying authorization failed it is failing and then so I'll just keep [TS]

  hitting cancel cancel cancel the next few of them and it's like an infinite [TS]

  loop on JavaScript you just can't do it like hit cancel fast enough and unlike [TS]

  between boxes you can like it the next stage of the size of the screen like an [TS]

  extra and get past that and I'm really tight what I've seen this doesn't even [TS]

  tell you that it failed it just asks again as though it asking for the first [TS]

  time over and over and over again [TS]

  and usually helps to power down the phone and power back on [TS]

  or my go-to thing which works for a lot of these things is to sign out and sign [TS]

  back in which can be a huge pain in years because you lose all your contacts [TS]

  are gone if the way for them to receive down your photos you musically now in [TS]

  our hands tied in but anyway the whole process is good and i really think that [TS]

  they are improved and I were in my big concern is that may be at the executive [TS]

  level they've got people who said their phones up for him and so they don't see [TS]

  it in the navy he can hear the complaints but it's one of those things [TS]

  we're hearing that complain come on to captain hours big deal it's very [TS]

  different than if if they had to see it I just can't help but feel that if you [TS]

  know Tom Coker Phil Schiller Jony ive went through what I've gone through some [TS]

  of these new iPhones this year [TS]

  personally that they would be like this this this need to kick any ass somebody [TS]

  that's as good a place as any to end we've gone on long enough let me thank [TS]

  our sponsors often forget to listen to the show but I won't this time our [TS]

  sponsors this week fracture people who make the pictures include the internet [TS]

  you actually like just works there that the place where you can go to take care [TS]

  of your EHR and payroll stuff like that and lastly the broader group who make [TS]

  both an amazing utility for Mac called you bar and $750 really nice custom [TS]

  designed sapphire glass analog automatic watch which is really really worth [TS]

  looking at even if you're not gonna buy it thanks to them and Marco I thank you [TS]

  tremendously always have to thank you for the time you're very generous with [TS]

  it thanks yeah I would have on the show even for three hours [TS]