129: ‘90 Minutes or Bust’, With Guest Ben Thompson

0:00:00ninety-minute or bust that we have the title already my room people is to

0:00:08complain the show was over an hour and he just gave up on it I got better

0:00:13actually because someone was someone recommended iPod guess on Twitter also

0:00:17appreciated and which I will add we're record has been broken bits them

0:00:21recording with you and I haven't required export all summer we're going

0:00:26to record the next episode later to Twitter today so I'm back to testing but

0:00:32like oh yeah but the problem is you all those podcast is gone forever the news

0:00:35and good editing I spend hours every week editors are five guests to give it

0:00:39to an hour

0:00:40don't let me in with her I was very close said well I know what they mean

0:00:44and I you know it would be a very different show though you know it's it's

0:00:49have you heard of this the slack slack variety pack now its new yes lack

0:01:01variety pack if he does Google slack for a tea bag you'll find it so it's a

0:01:05podcast that slack is sponsoring its not the people who are making it or not

0:01:14slack employees but they don't even get names or credit and this is all you know

0:01:18this is as as by design but it's so you know it's sort of like the way that like

0:01:25I think by the milton berle show like the texaco star hours something like

0:01:33that

0:01:33texaco something you know so it's just a hard cast with the name the slack

0:01:38variety pack and there's very very minimal slack

0:01:41promotion in it but it's a cute little 20 minute episode is a series of three

0:01:48or four minute very edited like npr style segments NPR for nerds and it's

0:01:55really good I did an interview with them for an episode that's coming up probably

0:02:00not need me like a month into their like a month ahead or something like that but

0:02:05I listened to a few episodes before agreed to do it I was blown away like

0:02:08npr very added tightly which is great and I love it and I've subscribed to the

0:02:14site for a pack and in theory I could do show that is similarly edited I mean you

0:02:20know but I don't think it's because like this ends up being and you put it as

0:02:30like the director's commentary for doing fireball which you know is is very

0:02:34tightly written and edited so it kinda makes sense that that it's it's the

0:02:39opposite and yeah I think both several I mean I mean the talk show is great when

0:02:44you're like cleaning house or something and it's i mean now you know we're

0:02:48driving driving or walking on you know doing errands now it's exactly to me

0:02:55though that those two forms are very traditional in radio where the MBR has

0:02:59been in PR has done these tightly edited segments and for those who outside the

0:03:04state NPR's national public radio and it's very III would say I think its

0:03:12outstanding quality and very well-regarded and you know like shows

0:03:17like all things considered

0:03:19and what was the show that was what I read last show This American Life is

0:03:25organized via that are famous for you know the the quality of the writing and

0:03:30broadcasting but also like they're tightly edited and then the other side

0:03:34there do not talk radio has been a thing as long as there's been radio and that's

0:03:37more like with my podcasts like and most of the podcasts in Iraq and I like it is

0:03:43it is funny that I think we we have any discussion every time I'm on because

0:03:49you have you message me ninety minutes are busted I think I just replied with

0:03:52the straight lol trust him with a little off my game would be the LA do i'm just

0:04:02still get out at 6:53 a.m. here and I've been awake for like six hours would be

0:04:06the emoji the poop probably like the the emoji with like the one eye open in the

0:04:14tongue sticking out you've had a busy summer you've been you were travelling

0:04:19in the states and now you're back on the other side of the Atlantic the pond what

0:04:24we call it Pacific is the big pond out and it's a lot bigger than the Atlantic

0:04:32I'm sure that's exactly what I know if in fact I've done it I I know what it

0:04:36feels like when you're flying over the site of a particular reform this time

0:04:40because yes I i was just me and my two kids might my wife every summer comes

0:04:45back up early would only done two summers but that's like her for a few

0:04:52weeks around but I realized that I haven't done the wake of my parents are

0:04:59in the midwest so go from Chicago to Taipei there's no direct flights you

0:05:02have to connect and prior to that we were in Seattle and then last year we

0:05:08did an overnight stay in in in Seoul Korea on the way back I had done the

0:05:12like the one trip all the way in a while and I forgot how brutal was gonna make

0:05:17it worse

0:05:18our flight going up move forward an hour and a half and are fighting back at the

0:05:21way into being 26 hours door-to-door over two hours of the airport's cargo so

0:05:27yeah it was it was it was rough kids are awesome I mean they're they're pretty

0:05:31experienced at this point but man it was it was hard

0:05:34o'hare had been there yet my parents my parents in this weird spot like they're

0:05:40just outside Madison but true to the south of Madison where there are enough

0:05:45from the Madison Airport close to hear it doesn't make sense to five from

0:05:48madison that you have to be to drive two hours ago hair which just adds a whole

0:05:53stinking top of the entire endeavor i was thinkin Midway which is

0:05:58all midway doesn't make any sense for interview no international yeah I think

0:06:04that I hate southwest by thing most of its because in Chicago's only midway

0:06:08yeah which is unlike the south side of chicago and it is just awful to get you

0:06:12so i i i turn off that it's good for me I've liked it over the years because if

0:06:19it's good if you just want to go to downtown Chicago right that's fine and

0:06:24and Southwest has tons of flights every day between Fillion and that way so you

0:06:29have tons of options and then you get off and walk right over to whatever the

0:06:35CTA and you get a card you know put 20 bucks on it and it's like the endpoint

0:06:41for the i think is the orange line you don't have to pay attention you just get

0:06:44on an orange train in downtown actually pretty good but for anything else to go

0:06:49to O'Hare air travel

0:06:54it sounds so cliché but like I used to swear off you know i i phone died been

0:07:01doing this for thirteen years now and I saw verifying USA North Pacific but I've

0:07:06jump fullback in with United basically because they have all their all their

0:07:11crossed the plains and I have wifi and power their seats which is it's

0:07:16unbelievable what I mean yeah I know the whole life I think has been done because

0:07:20they accept satellite wi-fi which works way better than the colo crap and its

0:07:23role and it's it's it's stunningly cheaper 60 to $70 and manage it does

0:07:28transforms the transforms the whole flight that's my god this is going we're

0:07:32easily on pace for a ninety-minute show since we can I just say I had two worst

0:07:38gogo experience ever

0:07:40a few weeks ago I'm trying to remember if it was coming home from WWDC there

0:07:46would be months ago but it was sometime this summer

0:07:49might have been coming home from the PC and amy was out with me were comin fine

0:07:54arm on us' airlines / American doll wanting their late in this weird one

0:08:02Bowden 141

0:08:05state right now we get I i've i've a Philly Philly is a huge USAir hub has

0:08:13been forever so I mean that's where I'm at the time and i was just booked my go

0:08:20go when I get on the plane that's always done and so I've heard that you supposed

0:08:24to book a day in advance or whatever and I just never get on the plane and i'm

0:08:28looking at the go-go options and there are no options to get the service for

0:08:34more than an hour other than and the hourly rate was onerous it was really

0:08:40expensive other than signing up for a monthly subscription and get in and you

0:08:46can unsubscribe yeah when you get a monthly subscription to go go there is

0:08:52no way to cancel it you have to call the email them and its 50 bucks they're

0:09:00they're terrible they're they're terrible company I mean if it seems

0:09:04criminal but I did have a flight later that month and I knew I was flying at

0:09:08the imposed if you had to be WBC knew it was June and I knew I was flying again

0:09:12at the end of June and I thought you know it actually would work out almost

0:09:17you know they have 50 bucks isn't that bad so I did it felt so bad but I was

0:09:23watching it was so fun so bad but I was watching this woman one row up across

0:09:28the aisle from me on her tablet was actually it was interesting for a with

0:09:34that thing was a Kindle tablet not an iPad and very unusual for me to see

0:09:39people using tablets on you know regular consumer day people using consumers are

0:09:44I bet and all she was doing this over and over and over again trying to get on

0:09:48the wifi and get the you know just let me pay for wifi for this way and she's

0:09:52looking at the options and she's like I could say in choosing reading all the

0:09:56fine print and thinking I could see what she was thinking you know that there

0:10:00must be some little fine printing like click here to do is get a pass for this

0:10:04flight and she confided she spent like 25 minutes what's bad is I mean

0:10:11obviously have a monopoly in captive audience on certain stuff no real

0:10:15incentive to write decent service

0:10:17but the the thing that's kind of nasties I use them a lot when I have trouble

0:10:24with Microsoft and so I like a monthly account rewrite that as I experienced

0:10:29the council thing but they now if you sign up they opt you into storing your

0:10:37credit card with them and you know option to opt out right and so they will

0:10:41keep her no matter what and then so i i i body in that I walked in and

0:10:46immediately remove my credit card and you say four days later gun return

0:10:50flight in a credit card so they're doing without without give you an option they

0:10:56actually failed or lied to actually move I told them to ya there there are an

0:11:01awful company and other satellite based stuff is so much better I think they're

0:11:05watching self-service but yeah I did I i mean there that I the only thing that's

0:11:11good about the monthly plan is assumed to give you if you do agree that is $15

0:11:15a month thing you can then have your laptop on and get your if you're a

0:11:22little way under seat or something and then you get a phone you can get on your

0:11:26iPhone and then you go back to your iPad its toll on as opposed to their every

0:11:31time you log on with a second device you're logged out of the previous device

0:11:34interesting that's nice yeah for sure it will work we we're we're not gonna have

0:11:40to any minute things best best thing happens in August last customer service

0:11:48experience I've ever had was a Southwest flight out of Midway was one of the sea

0:11:55for conferences so it's probably 2007 or 2008 and in Philadelphia subway lines

0:12:02are colored and like the blue line runs east west orange line runs north-south

0:12:08and there aren't they are in multiple colors on the same track and I knew from

0:12:14previous years that to get out to Midway you knew which hotel you go to the

0:12:19station go up the steps

0:12:21and take an orange train on right and I'll be going the right direction I was

0:12:26I remembered it and so is me and another guy who was at the conference actually

0:12:30and I see I guess I wasn't I raced up the stairs in there is a train already

0:12:35there was a jump into the train I recognize the face from this conference

0:12:41also attended didn't know I think he knew I was so i sat down we just started

0:12:48talking and you know made quick friends in a great way to pass the time and then

0:12:52obviously taking longer than we like we look out the window and it does not look

0:13:00anything like what I remember the trip to Midway and it ends up that in chicago

0:13:05they have multiple colored trains that take the same this right now she may be

0:13:12a was my father might have been that we are going up the steps together and I

0:13:14told him quick about it if you're out of the loop yet they're all the same track

0:13:22I don't remember this fellow's name but if you're out there listening to the

0:13:25show

0:13:26remember this I'm very sorry well it turns out we were way out in North

0:13:30Chicago and was not a good neighborhood and we asked got off to a cut off and I

0:13:39asked at CTM hey what's is there any way we can get a cab and they were like get

0:13:44back on the train were you joking like you there are no cabs out here this is

0:13:51no caps so that's really in as a few serious that's like the best way nearly

0:13:57as the best way for you to get the Midway would be to get back on the same

0:14:00trainer just on going the other way all the way back to home to where you were

0:14:03and wait for the train he should have done so and doing it I picked up my cell

0:14:09phone and call southwest and I'm thinking I

0:14:12am screwed I you know and you know during fireball was just barely off the

0:14:17ground like you know rebooking for hundreds of dollars more was gonna be

0:14:21seriously like meant it was not prepared for a call southwest and tell him and

0:14:26and the woman says hi guys have another flight leaving seventy minutes after the

0:14:33one you were on about that one and i was a year how much is going to cost you

0:14:35nothing really same price so don't know about that will make you that will make

0:14:42you a happy customer for a very long time I was like that's going to be about

0:14:47an hour late so that is absolutely perfect she was ok thanks for flying

0:14:51Southwest like 30 minutes and I went from having an absolutely horrible day

0:14:58to having I actually felt better than if I just made my fight that's the thing

0:15:02that is the thing about customer service that that there's two things I think

0:15:07both customer service knows about like just buying stuff that makes such a

0:15:11difference i mean a good service experience can actually make something

0:15:16better than it was originally given a broken product isn't like that I had to

0:15:20do the united to the

0:15:23also replaced I think we we talked about this at wherever the tactic Angeles

0:15:29failing but yeah I mean it is still it's still not the you walk in and give you a

0:15:33new on the spot they now have to mail them in with the watches but still it

0:15:37took two days and they called me up and taking me when you watch and like the

0:15:42fact I don't have to like them about it or like you know it's it's just it it

0:15:47makes a big difference for sure but that the Commission the hijackers ok here I

0:15:56was the big thing about if you were up in the air was now you could call her

0:16:01much more easily and they're they're much better at service you know serving

0:16:04underserved areas then in caps have ever been

0:16:07yes I do I wonder about that yet what will be in general but I do hope at some

0:16:13point we get to the

0:16:16this is a long stint segue two white cars and ride sharing and all this and I

0:16:21am I would love to get your thoughts about the

0:16:24the seemingly all but confirmed Apple car because I am still a little baffled

0:16:31about the whole thing but we don't need you now but I die I I would love to

0:16:34yeah well why don't you take a moment here as we as we rocket towards a

0:16:40ninety-minute take a moment here and thank over sponsor and then we can do

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0:17:31he was staying at and couldn't even get it because the blades and everything

0:17:35we're locked behind those plexiglas cabinets with a padlock have to find an

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0:17:49that's where he got the idea that you know this is perfect in the salon really

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0:18:02the blades they are getting so much they just bought the factory must be nice if

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0:18:48my starter kit years ago when ever did if you've been listening to show for a

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0:19:26field to the blade everything is just really nice my dad out of the blue one

0:19:31prompted by me I guess he liked load my website or something that's not the sort

0:19:40of person who buys stuff like this online he told me he he he saw that they

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0:20:01really nice also my dad to senate aureus cheapskate does not listen to the show

0:20:08hope it doesn't but he did he's he's pretty tight-fisted part was a great

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0:20:36starter kit is just 10 bucks my thanks to you I saw how did you end up with a

0:20:42Mac way back in the day if you're if your father was a

0:20:45notorious cheapskate oh that's great that's a great question

0:20:50well first part is and I've told this before when I was growing up I did not

0:20:55own a computer and because my parents would not buy me one and a lot of my

0:21:02friends are having trouble getting their parents to buy them a computer that

0:21:05works well too expensive in the eighties and the line was my friends got was I'm

0:21:09not gonna spend all that money you're not going to use it and my parents

0:21:12explanation to me was not gonna buy you a computer because if we do you're never

0:21:16gonna leave the house

0:21:19true and I resented it deeply as I wanted nothing in the world more than

0:21:23computer but I have to say that there was you know there's some merit to the

0:21:28argument and in some ways knew me better than perhaps you know I know myself and

0:21:34I you know I don't know I certainly read a lot more books and novels as a

0:21:39teenager that it would have the phone to computer that's interesting because like

0:21:43i i i tended to kinda like resent my parents for a similar reason like they I

0:21:49didn't really have access to computer or was never a push in that direction even

0:21:55though like you don't have one right well if I had been into that before I

0:21:59went to school like what you know what track Libya now I be you know a a

0:22:04program where would I start my own company or whatever biloba and obviously

0:22:09in in the ended up working out pretty well to end up having much more of a

0:22:14kind of literary background lot of reading or writing at the same paper

0:22:18thing as well but since you you gotta put it like say that word resentment as

0:22:23I thought about as well it's like but actually probably turned out for the

0:22:27best and then and I scored I did have a good pretty good computer science

0:22:31teacher in high school we had a little lab mostly Apple I guess by the time I

0:22:39got a couple two DS's and think there is one mcintosh and i'd idid appreciated

0:22:46the Macintosh greatly I really did I enjoyed my time on it but I chose to

0:22:52spend most of my time on the to de-escalate row is most familiar and

0:22:55that and for writing the programming assignment I had its most familiar with

0:22:59the tools but then I went to college in 1991 at Drexel you had to have access to

0:23:06a macintosh now demean you had to buy one there was a lab but I mean

0:23:10effectively those highly recommended that all incoming freshmen by one in the

0:23:14student discount at the time were tremendous I think it was close to 50%

0:23:18off might have been like 40 percent off nice so I gotta gotta mcintosh when I

0:23:24was a freshman in college and it was a big reason one of the reasons I wanted

0:23:28to go to track so I knew that if I got a computer as a freshman I certainly

0:23:32wanted it to be a macintosh interesting it's funny i've been might my parents

0:23:36tend to be behind the frugal side as well we should say we say no it's funny

0:23:44I i would i would not normally think of you as being frugal oh I'm not know if

0:23:51it will work what we i think had a similar reaction to that now my sister

0:23:57is my sisters to buy this there is a way she's incredible body yeah you know you

0:24:05know knows where everything is actually balances the checkbook etcetera etcetera

0:24:09which store has certain items that are cheaper than the other store where I am

0:24:14so grateful for my I don't want to switch all my all my credit card usage

0:24:18to american express just because they actually their Apple pay implementation

0:24:22actually shows every single charge

0:24:25wears like I have also like other cars they only show the charging your phone

0:24:29when you charged with refusing a page but american express every single charge

0:24:34with the card will show on your phone as a notification yes which i think is

0:24:38great because I had to learn

0:24:39I don't wanna be bothered to like go through my statement every month charges

0:24:44like the fact that it pops up everytime is fantastic that only Americans press

0:24:50does it I totally love that now is that yes I know exactly when I was working

0:24:58with this so that only works though with with Apple pay even know it like you

0:25:05said it you have to have an apple pay device and that means for the couple of

0:25:10weeks over the last year I've switched back to my iPhone 5s for testing like

0:25:15when I first started testing I was nine I didn't want to put it on my six so I

0:25:19put it on 5s and I swear not the size of the screen it the biggest thing they

0:25:26missed was getting those amex notifications iono CBS today where I

0:25:30thought my heart skipped wait a minute is busted I'm not getting through it

0:25:37doesn't go through the AMEX apical is through Apple pay what they call the

0:25:42wallet now be used to be called passbook was widened in is it not

0:25:48which by the way I never got no I haven't put it I haven't installed hours

0:25:549 yet I never install a really smart but I'm so used to I was nine that I'm

0:25:59talking about is the presentation it but I passbook has gotten even if they did

0:26:06so much better than it used to be

0:26:08I've been pretty impressive new design house 96 the removing flights or hotel

0:26:14stays that you've already done in the past

0:26:17don't think so that's like the one killer blow the whole like them

0:26:21automatically yeah good they stay in there you have to dismiss each

0:26:25individually which if you're traveling with your family like for you have four

0:26:30tickets on your passbook have to go through and dismissed each one

0:26:32individually which is really annoying but that said that the way the way it

0:26:36like these location in time data like Palin thing they're instantly available

0:26:40although I've been very impressed and happy with it

0:26:43yeah I really really mister when I went back to me that's how I got started with

0:26:48the Mac 1991 even I knew it from the eighties you know having used to spend

0:26:53some time on it already you iced I started out with when I went to school I

0:27:01built my own PC and actually start a little business underside putting pieces

0:27:07together for like Michael Dell prodigy or something but as I put together my

0:27:13own PC and upgraded with different parts and all that that was that I did that

0:27:17all the way through school and then I don't get a Mac I got a Mac when I came

0:27:22to Taiwan in 2003 I think that a laptop that I bombed a flake was broke and Mike

0:27:31if i fix it can I habit and they did fix in the back and I had in years

0:27:37ex-girlfriend I don't think it was about that but yes around that time actually

0:27:43it was when the the first like flat screen iMac came out not that not the

0:27:51not the one of the Armed the one where like the screen was the computer is all

0:27:55white and I just thought that was just awesome and I used a Mac a bit in in in

0:28:03school but I'm mainly the newspaper to do help but but not not much but I

0:28:09thought that you were so cool and i like it so much that I ended up buying the

0:28:13book I don't know what happened in the transition to find that but I was I

0:28:18don't have any way that all I think this project the matter of that was that come

0:28:22in the door

0:28:23thousand Tiger around tyre I think after that

0:28:28and and yeah you use a Mac pretty much since then I was the head of like the

0:28:35Mac lab at Kellogg like helping people like actually being a business or you

0:28:40know they provided they had Windows PCs but use a Mac a little more difficult

0:28:44and sell kind of Blevins mine when I kellogg to go work at Microsoft because

0:28:50I was kinda known as the Apple guy but by a woman is good and Windows Windows I

0:28:58think this is really interesting actually windows isn't that isn't a bad

0:29:02as things I like about it better than the map in the wind imagining stuff i

0:29:06think is really is actually pretty great and actually I've installed up utilities

0:29:10on the Mac 22 replicates called better snapped or other on the keyboard it's

0:29:19pretty great as a free for endorsement the problem with Windows in this is kind

0:29:25of counter-intuitive was the absurd situation application situation like the

0:29:29third party apps just all socked obviously the Microsoft apps were good

0:29:34in much better on Windows in there in there in the Mac but things like I'm me

0:29:40focus or more like a Twitter app like just all this like basic stuff the map

0:29:48was even back in back then was cool but was so much better than then the window

0:29:55situation where everything at best you could find something third party would

0:29:59be super ugly you know just look like crap and then have like the

0:30:03modernization would be weird that so actually the biggest problem I had with

0:30:08using windows not windows it was not having a fab switches which at the time

0:30:13I told some people that they like toys Ono that's the big advantage has but

0:30:17even by then for a consumer sort of I was a bit but for personal app usage the

0:30:25situations was pretty dire even then it obviously it's only gotten worse since

0:30:30then I've ever used the number of these you 200 and I haven't I don't use it I

0:30:40don't but if I were to use them

0:30:41Windows management utility it's probably put some things in here just another

0:30:46utility you know i kind of I don't I don't use any third-party utilities for

0:30:53that anymore but I do kind of agree that managing a bunch open windows on 10 with

0:30:58the stock stuff it's kinda hard when she used to use this napping stuff it's it's

0:31:07it's pretty awesome I get told them I haven't used used windows like think I

0:31:14used if like a few weeks contracting job in 2000 I don't know which is which is

0:31:24only available to the time you know when I went right back to do they start they

0:31:32still have the C Drive RAID like if you buy if you buy like a brand new like

0:31:37Windows machine is to have a seat driver ID they do I think it might be West

0:31:42exposed like I think you know your default view in the Explorer is is more

0:31:47like your documents and pictures and stuff like that but that said there's

0:31:52aspects of Windows 8 Windows Explorer out like the actual file management that

0:31:56that are better than the Mac like the way you can have me maybe it's more

0:32:02power stuff we can actually do the tree like the left and like the apps on the

0:32:06right or you can like cut and paste like just and I think it's one of those

0:32:10things where it where if you're always used to them finder you would think it

0:32:16odd but if you've used it the other way and I definitely never finish in ninety

0:32:21minutes if we get started on finder because I'm still not just I'm still not

0:32:24used to the OS 10

0:32:26if you're used to the real finder from the classic Mac OS then it's all it's

0:32:31all just thats reaction I think in general it is Mac OS users and people

0:32:40who like the old finder and special finder without it seems to meet tend to

0:32:45be more mouse centric in their users of the computer it would get a fair

0:32:49characterization I don't think so I think for some people that is true but

0:32:53like I wasn't and once you learned some of the keyboard shortcuts for the old

0:32:58finder it was it was great you you know just command up would go up a level

0:33:05command in the list view which is why everybody and everybody smartest you

0:33:09could command left and right to close open close levels of hierarchy and

0:33:15option command left great to do the whole you know subfolders to any

0:33:21ahead and you could type ahead to select you still a lot of these things to work

0:33:25but in the old fighter it never scrooge over and you could do stuff like you

0:33:32still can but likes to start taping the first few letters of something and it

0:33:35selects the first thing that matches the first few letters without entering any

0:33:39kind of command rating you just type it and I learned to use the keyboard very

0:33:44very quickly and it was always very fast and never felt like I had to wait for

0:33:48anything but that's it that's all say their children to users we have you as

0:33:55my my perspective it is is distorted by having him talk about the find the

0:34:01special finder kind of it's kind of a multi-decade campaign at this point I

0:34:07think well and we didn't talk or chrome books either doing like what else would

0:34:19you remembered were you using Windows Phone Windows 95 came out this week was

0:34:22the 25th anniversary of windows ninety-five no i didnt i dont have a

0:34:27computer in high school so when I got a computer or when I built my computer I

0:34:33think that Windows 98 either just come out it was about to come out so

0:34:38I think I think I started with Windows 98 arm I'd use windows ninety-five but

0:34:44no I wasn't part of the whole lineup in do it I I was feeling like I was

0:34:49following the news at by that point I think I'd subscribe subscribe to some

0:34:55concern computer magazines are so high school I would also like fundraising

0:34:59drive storage or just in retrospect just got ridiculous but as I was I was

0:35:07described to a few of them so I definitely followed it from afar but no

0:35:12I was not a part of it but I do enjoy your your your YouTube thinking in

0:35:19response to it it was something I thought was I still thought it was

0:35:24garbage is just better looking garbage it did it did it did actually managed

0:35:34memory competent well you know but the Mac at least I don't know that I'd favor

0:35:41user interface design over at lower level you know Mac OS had problems and

0:35:47it was showing its age but I would say 1995 it wasn't quite in the area I would

0:35:52say at that point there were still advantages to be had by having an

0:35:55operating system that was so low to the ground then there are the memory wasn't

0:36:01mean it like that right what I think it's it speaks to how good the user fees

0:36:06was that I mean I mean what Apple died but the fact that they didn't die speaks

0:36:12to how good it was because the reality is on almost every conceivable metric or

0:36:17feature angle I mean the Mac was pretty hopelessly behind and performance

0:36:23yeah that was really I think that by 96 97 it was the fact that the operating

0:36:32system was so crafty under the hood

0:36:35memory was all shared was definitely a problem that they knew and as why did

0:36:42you know that it came to a head that way but next but the machines of the time

0:36:46were not unusable they weren't bad I mean you know you could make them bad

0:36:51though that was the one of the things that people got like it if you used to

0:36:54stock Mac does the thing that people don't remember if you used to stock Mac

0:36:58and you did not install third-party extensions you would have a stable

0:37:02pretty stable experience the thing that really kind of did that and were web

0:37:07browsers it was even the good ones at the time had a tendency to really lock

0:37:13up your machine but the people who complain and say like I had a Mac in

0:37:171994 and crashed all the time they installed all of these system extensions

0:37:22they're all running in the same memory spaces everything else it was more or

0:37:26less like people were making their own operating system but it's a long story

0:37:31yeah we're doing everything we can to do not meet you mentioned before let's talk

0:37:42about the topic engine I i think that among the top problems with alcohol

0:37:49wipes now lo these many months in I think the tactic engine is one of the

0:37:54top problems and probably the only a hardware problem while no I guess I have

0:37:58a second hardware problem I have a list of three top Apple watch problems and

0:38:02one of them is the tactic engine which I don't think is good enough yeah i i with

0:38:07interesting and i think that arguably the killer feature of the watch that

0:38:12that was what I miss the most when I was in how the watch for three days was back

0:38:17to buzzing in my pocket like that was really annoying and so yeah I think the

0:38:24fact that it's a hardware problem is magnified by the fact that it's so I

0:38:28think central to the value that the device does does provide arms which to

0:38:34me is all about is the notifications in some applications arm I have said for a

0:38:39long time and maintained that it was a mistake to wash his hybrid apps like you

0:38:43know I think they disproven user experience but the tactic engine is

0:38:47great except for the fact that

0:38:48at a standstill miles it seems to be failing for a lot of people yeah I think

0:38:57that it you think that's true there's a lot of them in stainless steel that was

0:39:01what my my review you know about that's what I mean based on responses I posted

0:39:06my feeling I got quite a few responses in seem to be all stainless steel models

0:39:13that were having problems and if you remember i think is a standstill miles

0:39:16over the most delayed to getting out the door

0:39:19remember there is the story about like one supplier of tapping engines you know

0:39:23they had bad ones so I seems to have been there seems to be some sort of

0:39:30common thread here involving stainless steel models in the template engine and

0:39:34there being a problem I think I think that there's too many people who had

0:39:39them fail maybe not so much that it really hurts the platform but it's it's

0:39:44obviously a problem and I think even in 12 don't fail it's not good enough and I

0:39:51could be wrong as it was one afternoon eleven months ago almost 11 months ago

0:39:58now when I first got to see that the prototype pre-production Apple watches

0:40:05that they had at the event last year you know six months before they actually

0:40:09ship but what I recall from the ones I got to put on my wrist there that tactic

0:40:14sensation was better and it wasn't it was just it was just more satisfying it

0:40:21felt more like a tap whereas this and more like something that you couldn't

0:40:26miss like they the ones that they had a year ago just seemed to me like they had

0:40:31hit the sweet spot between your not gonna miss this but this isn't going to

0:40:36start all paranoid

0:40:39was just it was very humane is the best way that I could put it in the way that

0:40:45if I would if I were standing behind you and you were talking to somebody

0:40:48needed to get your attention I could tap you on the shoulder in an appropriate

0:40:51way depending on the urgency of the matter is this seriously an emergency I

0:40:57could you know I would have you more aggressively if it was just i I do hate

0:41:02interrupt but i just want to let you know I have something for you I would

0:41:04tabula certainly and show you could interpret that watches I remember from

0:41:09September just sort of had that I really thought this this is a huge aspect of

0:41:14that then where's the watch I we're now I just I do miss tops I don't think I am

0:41:21afraid I know that it's not defective white with the defective tactic engine

0:41:26it just isn't that great and I feel like it needed to be where it needs to be

0:41:31like it's one of those things that the next generation they're gonna figure

0:41:34something out to do it better

0:41:37yeah I think the it's interesting I think my new watch actually I feel it's

0:41:40not as good as my original I first got it again it's hard to measure your going

0:41:44based on memory yeah but the way it failed was it went from think it tapped

0:41:50to fill a vibration like so it was getting loose or something and so in the

0:41:55end that had less of a sense of the tapping on your wrist as opposed to

0:42:01being a very distinct out and I do think my new one well it's tighter than the

0:42:05one that was failing it still feels more by Brady then like a tap that that I

0:42:11recall recalls my web watch first gotta reviews from the event also but yeah i i

0:42:19think that yeah it's interesting I I was curious if the smart ones are different

0:42:26for the sport ones are different but if it's my favorite feature so hopefully

0:42:33they do clean it up

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0:47:43your other two problems well actually I'm gonna renumber them and I'm gonna

0:47:46say that topic what engine disappointing number that number two number one is

0:47:51that absurd slow and whereby apps I mean anything that goes between the phone in

0:47:57that watch likes it not just third-party third party stuff is is really just

0:48:03embarrassing as unusable and some days it's just seems worse and the end but

0:48:09even the built-in stuff it can be can be sometimes it's like it just works in

0:48:14like this in the future and other times it's like I hit the little whether you

0:48:17know the temperatures thing on my face to open a weather app just spins and

0:48:21spins and spins in and weather is too slow

0:48:24yeah and I've got a good connection you know i mean home in wifi you know

0:48:28everything should work just fine and something somewhere it doesn't work so

0:48:36i've to to comment on that one for what I agree about whether being way too slow

0:48:40and it's frustrating to the other is really irritating is whether doesn't

0:48:45update based on your location

0:48:46you have to open up the watch apt in your phone and change the default city

0:48:49which to me is like such a Miss Mary I'm sure it'll be fixed but it's like I'm a

0:48:56travel alot so I this relatively regularly what is great watches I made a

0:49:01travel case basically where I live in Chicago I had the Chicago time I had

0:49:07Tokyo time we were switching planes night at a time we're going and I also

0:49:11had the chronograph to measure and the timer to measure how long until like

0:49:15we're supposed to land it was awesome

0:49:17like I usually will fly with the little computer you know the flight path in

0:49:23front of me just mainly to see that all the time but the watch is actually way

0:49:27better to me we see the time when I wanted but the fact by so it's it's it's

0:49:32almost a great travel thing I did was update when when you get their third on

0:49:38an essay is this is one that does not affect me but it absolutely affects me

0:49:43my wife workout killed the battery

0:49:47yeah she you know when she attended one of the Reno and I clearly it's heavily

0:49:52advertised as a reason to buy the watches as you know workout measuring

0:49:57his companion and it just you know she goes to the gym and she comes back she

0:50:04could leave with the hundred percent charge and comes back and watch is under

0:50:0850% and then not without enough to get to the end of the day so I don't have it

0:50:15you know the exact type of workout she's doing and i know if i dont I think the

0:50:20fact that her sis 3842 factor in that but that's a real like one day of of

0:50:28battery life

0:50:29it does seem like that you know seems crazy compared to what watches were like

0:50:33before

0:50:34Applewhite free after charging damn watch every night and that can be a

0:50:37problem but it's it when it works it seems like that's all I can handle this

0:50:44is ok but if you can't get through the day it's a deal breaker and doing a

0:50:48workout and having a not get through the days is a real prize a real problem I

0:50:53think now well within my last name is sort of a sub item of the apps are slow

0:50:59think it might be related to why sometimes I think that there's a

0:51:03sometimes there's a finicky connection between watching phone and I feel like

0:51:08it has to be ideally especially for the prices they're charging it really ought

0:51:12to be a hundred percent thing like when you connect a keyboard 23 USB it always

0:51:21works right like if it doesn't you know that you just got a bad keyboard right

0:51:27use your Bluetooth

0:51:28USB and and and and I think it's blue I think bluetooth is the reason that that

0:51:33this what you know but that's that's not my problem right

0:51:35you know if you spent $1000 on an Apple watch the fact that bluetooth is very

0:51:39difficult to program and has all sorts you know whatever not your problem it

0:51:44should it should be at work as reliably as USB plug let me guess you you where

0:51:50you're watching your weapon system put your phone in your pocket I do that I'm

0:51:55sure that's why does the human body is a big big second water and you know what

0:52:01that my wife has a more problems than me with this including recently and she

0:52:06does she seldom carries her phone in a pocket usually you know in a purser or

0:52:11something like that she doesn't usually keep it in the pocket and its and

0:52:16sometimes take it just says they're right next to each other and not often

0:52:20not often but like it was just a week or two ago but her phone and a watch she

0:52:24isn't running any beta software on anything she's not running OS papers but

0:52:29her her watch was showing the I can't see the phone icon the red the red

0:52:34cherry red right next to each other and getting them to see each other again

0:52:38it's the best thing we could figure out to do was to reset her watch and then

0:52:45restore it

0:52:46repair it restore from the backup that she had on the phone it just seems like

0:52:52something you should never have to do

0:52:5344 yeah and it was weird it was like you know that the magic repairing like where

0:53:01you point your camera at the at the pool animated QR code equivalent but that

0:53:08they made look not ugly

0:53:10that wasn't working for like force and even I know that that's because I was

0:53:13there with her when she paired it originally and it was you know in any

0:53:17kind of lighting really good midday lighting with lots of sunshine just

0:53:21wasn't work I had I can get a parent when I was at the Apple Store new one

0:53:30I for some reason the genius of doing it and i just think that it's got to and I

0:53:34think Apple problem I think that they're aware of this cuz i think thats how high

0:53:38their aspirations are but all these little fiddly little problems are fine

0:53:42for something like the pebble that's aimed at a certain sort of people who

0:53:46publicly advertises to and when you charge the sort of prices that advert

0:53:51you know charges people do you know this sort of finicky trying to get one piece

0:53:57of technology to talk to another is just what we're used to and that's acceptable

0:54:00I think that Apple has raised the bar with so many other things in their

0:54:06ecosystem and with the pricing that they charged and the sort of you know

0:54:13consumer accessible luxury message that they're putting forth that's it's just

0:54:19not acceptable it's interesting wrinkle I will say the beyond the applet again I

0:54:25think I i feel like the fact that it shipped these hybrid apps was very

0:54:31concerning to me as well as well as a whole

0:54:34like hoop someone she said no to that that that aside the single like the the

0:54:41the biggest issue I have with the watch and i've still worn everyday and I

0:54:45missed it was gone by is I do I'm not like oh some watch connoisseurs only

0:54:52have one Swiss watch that I got for my wedding for my in-laws but I i misss

0:54:57wearing it like I miss going into like I'm going to a nice story and I can be

0:55:01dressed you know jeans and a shirt but you know you've you're wearing like that

0:55:05nice lots like it it's there's a certain sense in feeling that comes from from

0:55:10that and I don't get that from the apparatus stainless steel with this team

0:55:14is still bad you know it's you know relatively high model but it definitely

0:55:18well I absolutely think that it works a lot better than

0:55:23the impeachment watches agree disagree it still feels pretty geeky and not not

0:55:32like a luxury item even if it's the qualities nice the workmanship is nice I

0:55:36miss not having that luxury item and i know im wearing it anyway I'ma geek in

0:55:43part because like I said that I find the notifications and the net or IM or find

0:55:48that not buzzing in my pocket really nice but I get what they're going for

0:55:53that I use for me I'm not sure that they delivered on that specific point you

0:55:59just traveling how do you how do you find traveling with the airport now it's

0:56:04great like I said I find it I think it's great because the multiple large faces

0:56:09you can set like i said i buy a custom watch these just for just for the trip

0:56:13which was super super valuable and because I'm lazy I don't have 0 battery

0:56:18life issues even the flying that trip you don't know if no problem as far as

0:56:25battery life goes it is surely if you don't do a workout it is get out I find

0:56:32that it's half great for traveling and half terrible for traveling and I'm not

0:56:37sure interesting so like I i do think that the directions are pretty grade I

0:56:45never use that because we just had to drive somewhere and we don't have liked

0:56:50it dashboard GBS type thing I find getting the directions on my wrist while

0:56:53driving the car to be just terrific absolutely terrific and i know im

0:56:57thinking about it you know that it's going to take me when I gotta turn

0:57:02coming up and I can glance and see it really really liked it for that I like

0:57:07it for little things like as convenient as it is if a boarding pass on the watch

0:57:12in a way like you said with passbook that it just comes up like knows you're

0:57:15at the airport and just comes out good how many especially your traveling with

0:57:20kids

0:57:21times your arms are full or you just don't feel like digging through it's

0:57:25it's pretty cool for stuff like that i remember i Amtrak train one time and I

0:57:33have my boarding pass

0:57:34watch and it's just so great cause you're an Amtrak you are you sit down

0:57:38and you wait and they come around and get your tickets and so instead of

0:57:42having to sit there with her ticket our fish in your pocket or something they

0:57:45just had already right there really great thing I don't like about traveling

0:57:50with the Apple what is a really don't like having to set up another charter in

0:57:55a hotel

0:57:57it really didn't really was it was like I just give up on a farm I'll watch

0:58:05every time to just forget it I'll put it back on when I go home because it's just

0:58:10got to be too much rain we just had too many you know three phones and three

0:58:14Apple watches was just too much especially if you are staying in a hotel

0:58:21room that doesn't have many outlets are ya

0:58:25most hotels even you know when I get is probably a factor of eight but you know

0:58:28even that at two major hotels its heart the one we're at Disney add additional

0:58:34problem where it was sort of a lot of the sockets they were loose and so like

0:58:38sometimes you don't have a charger and then it wouldn't but inside the three so

0:58:42we did have a tangle of these white cables and it took you just look for a

0:58:46lightning or what happened to be the one day as I had attached it to the thing

0:58:52and I went to bed in the morning and it was dead

0:58:56sort of thing and it wasn't plugged in then it was rain it was just an

0:59:01unplugged in charger and I was like you know what that would put this away where

0:59:06ya no that's definitely that's definitely a good point I think it's

0:59:11kind of a one that when those ones that will never go away it does it gives me

0:59:18his the outside the anxiety a get is then when I don't wear and we're at the

0:59:26theme park and I walk 10 miles

0:59:29get any points to beat the game vacations working against you yes

0:59:35absolutely yeah it's funny the the whole like I haven't turned in those

0:59:43notifications off the the i would tell you the our notification to stand up is

0:59:50really irritating when you're on a plane by Esteban haven't turned off out of

0:59:55some misguided notion that this is gonna you know the area would be bad for my

1:00:00health to turn it off even though I never listened to it but I think I've

1:00:08talked about this on the show before I think that and again I say this knowing

1:00:12that famous last words is trying to tell some engineer what seems like it should

1:00:17be easy to my guess it should be easy but it seems to me like it should be

1:00:21possible for the watch to make a very educated guess that you are on an

1:00:26airplane is it in knows when you're at an airport and its good point right and

1:00:34especially if it knows that it has a passbook or called in I was nine wallet

1:00:41and tree for a flight and it knows what time the flight is and if they can

1:00:48somehow I guess it doesn't happen all altimeter right but there ought to be

1:00:55some it just seems to me like there ought to be some kind of way that it can

1:00:59figure out that you're probably on a plane and maybe it could even ask you

1:01:02may be the key to even say are you going to be on a plane

1:01:04when are you getting on this flight and then not ask you for that I have to

1:01:08admit that that is I find that to be terribly annoying too because especially

1:01:11in this you know second third fourth hour flight when you're really starting

1:01:16to get antsy and you're like I just got them playing we get to where it's going

1:01:19and then your watches like stand-up move around and say screw you I'm so when I

1:01:26get your second third fourth hour characterization

1:01:30after my my 13 hours yesterday to Lake the the standing indicator light can't

1:01:37figure out whether actually standing or not either he just goes at the fed to

1:01:41miss the hour no matter what

1:01:43which is good just kind of annoying when you're walking around it taps on the

1:01:46risk to stand up that's what seems that's weird though sometimes it seems

1:01:51to know that you have been standing and it doesn't show it to you I don't get it

1:01:54every every hour and 50 minutes I who knows maybe maybe maybe I don't but

1:02:01there are some times when I am up and I and then it anyway that's the top

1:02:08complained about the airport yeah I think that is where I i for the record

1:02:15remain remain pretty bullish on it just because I think you know the the arc the

1:02:21architect is interesting is even when all these apps are coming I'm still a

1:02:25little skeptical about the apt situation I think I'm a citizen the show

1:02:28previously that you know kind of what matters on for one area doesn't as a

1:02:33matter of the next one just absurd matter on the phone I don't think it's

1:02:36necessarily a matter for the watch where I think the watch remains super

1:02:41compelling is as a way to interact with the world around you you know and like

1:02:47when you can start your car with their unlocked doors with it or or identify

1:02:52yourself with it that's when it's it's becomes just a must have

1:02:56and really transformed what you do in the meantime like I've been very pleased

1:03:01with the notification stuff and yeah I just wish that I was with that Apple

1:03:08they just intercepted at all but i said i four times and you haven't taken the

1:03:12bait yet so i know i mean i i I even asked her about it

1:03:17in the live show you know was you know what was the thinking if you knew your

1:03:21gonna have this fuller St cages too few months later even oh yes announcing it

1:03:27in June doesn't mean it shipping its ship presumably until next month in

1:03:31September but even so if if if that 1.0 white kid had never existed right now

1:03:38people would be there be some jackass out there writing articles in having

1:03:42written them all summer that Apple watches dead because it doesn't have any

1:03:45third party software but in the grand scheme of things it would have only gone

1:03:50five months without rate without saying something is like in in other reviews

1:03:56would have during the Apple watch for it but like all but of course it will be

1:03:59rectified soon like that's a very different than like the watch is slow

1:04:04because I if you don't interact with the absent all the watch in my estimation is

1:04:09perfectly acceptable and the new Apple that's not quite so secretive that Apple

1:04:14that had Jeff Williams at recode conference in late may just say that he

1:04:25could you know coyly say that this ties in with what you want to talk about that

1:04:30cars are the ultimate mobile device you know more or less

1:04:35not saying yes we're working on a car but really towing getting right up to

1:04:39the line I think that that Apple today's Apple could have also said at the exact

1:04:46same event you know maybe a tree code that yes we are working on an SDK for

1:04:50Apple watching will have you know stay tuned for WBC next month right you know

1:04:55i i actually agree it could have come out you know and even could have come

1:04:59out maybe it could have even come out at the when they had the event in March

1:05:03where you know the second event where they you know she did the things and

1:05:06even said you know and you know state to know BC

1:05:10weighing in at attaches that but like this is that's what Apple does like you

1:05:15I mean when your I'm sure your priority that one of your what is your best

1:05:20article is not on during fireball dot com

1:05:23have said that yeah the way I made that mistake once the macrolide is not

1:05:30helpful roles like their version ones are supposed to be under under featured

1:05:36like there's there's there's a there's two things that are a product of a

1:05:42measure on one is the features but the other one is is like how done it is

1:05:45completed is in by completing a mean that it fully featured I mean that the

1:05:50features that are their work perfectly and you like what Apple's always been

1:05:55good at is yes well this is a version 1 it's going to be missing a lot of stuff

1:05:59but whatever is there's gonna work really really well remember the iPhone

1:06:02one like that that is arguably the most stable iPhone of all right i mean that

1:06:06that thing was was incredible for what it was even though it was missing all

1:06:11kinds of white basic stuff you know

1:06:15copy and paste and all that although we cannot name but was there worked

1:06:21perfectly

1:06:22better in general in Apple's might have to ship without a featured all been to

1:06:26ship with a crappy version of the feature exactly exactly in and that's

1:06:32what's so funny about the watch our concerns me as an apple observer is to

1:06:37me the aptitude haitian is is is adding it because to check a box and it's

1:06:42adding us poor implementation of it instead of taking the lumps for you know

1:06:47in reviews for missing something

1:06:50it added something in it and a poorly and that's that's a problem it's almost

1:06:56like they took somebody who knows maybe everybody was in agreement and it wasn't

1:07:00a fight about it but it seems to me like something that maybe was an internal

1:07:04debate that there were had to be some people

1:07:07who thought the same thing we do and it makes me think that the faction that one

1:07:12out and shipped it to the wrong lesson from the iPhone because famously we know

1:07:20that in hindsight famously with the original iPhone it didn't ship with a

1:07:25SDK and I don't think it would have under any circumstances even if the

1:07:30whole company was a unanimous that we need to have apps for this thing back in

1:07:362007 @ still wouldn't happen because the OS was still they didn't they weren't

1:07:40ready to have public API and that's one thing Apple's always or at least the

1:07:44next side of Apple even actually the non ex I think it's been pretty good about

1:07:49over the years is that they you know once they publish API's they're pretty

1:07:53you know pretty good about supporting them going forward until their

1:07:57deprecated they don't really change things like that but famously you know

1:08:03there are people in jobs was on that side of it that really thought that they

1:08:08didn't need ups this you know we can do all the apps you need it would more or

1:08:13less be like what Apple TV has been up till date we're not that they wouldn't

1:08:16have new apps going forward but they would be things like the YouTube app or

1:08:20they would do them in partnership with somebody else and that if maybe if there

1:08:24was a Netflix app two years later Apple would write the Netflix app and put it

1:08:29on the phone in with API help from Netflix and stuff like that that they

1:08:33could just do it all themselves and have does he know couple of dozen apps and

1:08:40that the other side was no we should never happen and they looked at how this

1:08:45when and how the App Store was so has now become so essential to the success

1:08:49of the iPhone and the iPad and just blindly said therefore we need to do

1:08:57this for the watch and we need to have it right away I agree yeah I use I use

1:09:06overcast sometimes but that's about it I tried the I tried the SPG you are a

1:09:15keyless entry by the I it was too much hassle going to be out quick in like it

1:09:24would work better if they had like a beacon or something so came up

1:09:26automatically that would be awesome in so that's gonna be like my whole vision

1:09:30about your watch do stuff for you it was great to watch his great double double

1:09:36click it and do it it needs to be that easy to have you watched interact with

1:09:40the environment actually only open up the app screen find the SPG app open it

1:09:45quick to unlock key I get a multi-step process that was totally not worth it

1:09:51on the phone on the phone the phone work great because made it to the phones

1:09:55batteries to open the app but other than that I haven't touched at all

1:10:03longtime yeah I very seldom go back to that app screen and just for example 822

1:10:10time this ninety-minute episode the talk-show wanted to run the timer on my

1:10:13watch and the way I wrote I'm sure is I know that there are over from the left

1:10:18is the chronograph watch face and i cant which I love for doing timing because I

1:10:24just don't have to launch anything there's a button right there on the

1:10:27watch face that starts a stopwatch

1:10:30no i i i i put I Marion Ave timer and alarm on my watch face and those are

1:10:36that's what I used by far the most applications in they work well because

1:10:41their native to the watch that there's no there's no wagon using them they were

1:10:45they were quickly yeah so it will be a long night I think that we'll see what

1:10:55happens this version 2 outside I'll be interested to see which ones

1:11:00breakthrough you know what i was gonna stop I was gonna move to a new topic but

1:11:05the other thing I knew I wanted to say something so great he said that is that

1:11:08I'm thinking this is my hunch

1:11:11can't I don't have concrete examples but my hunch is that the third party he

1:11:18isn't the app like the the delivery whether it's technically in code that in

1:11:24a.a bundle but the concept of a nap but faces a user and in iowa's parlance a

1:11:32nap is the thing that is an icon on the home screen and you launch it and then

1:11:36it gets the whole screen and then you interact with it until you hit the home

1:11:39button go back to the home screen allows for Babs and Apple white house that they

1:11:45have this thing full of absentee luncheon and takes over this I think I

1:11:48just think it's the wrong word metaphor

1:11:52package to me what's interesting and what works best from third parties right

1:11:58now are the notifications and the ones that are smart and that you can tap and

1:12:03get a list of buttons they give you options to do things like that I use for

1:12:08certain reminders and I have you have you tried to look yet from Microsoft

1:12:12email client now they have an excellent Apple Logic actually for that exact

1:12:16reason you get notification email you scroll down and there is archived we do

1:12:21a little later like whatever whatever the actions you wanna do on an email and

1:12:25yeah it's always an occasion later into actually that is actually an application

1:12:29that I use even though I never actually launch the application right you're not

1:12:33really using it in the apt metaphor you using it in this notification metaphor

1:12:37and you don't have people who put that together aren't writing all absurd to

1:12:41say okay after this notification here is the list of the actions we want to

1:12:46present and then you do these actions and yes they've written a peres code

1:12:49that when you say archive nose and tells the app ok take that email message and

1:12:54move it to the archive folder but it it from the user doesn't feel like using an

1:12:59app and the other thing that I think might be a big deal

1:13:02watch watch OS 2.0 our third-party complications yes being able to put

1:13:10those complications on your watch faces I think could be a real step up in

1:13:16within a month or two everybody's gonna be like I can't believe we live without

1:13:19this I've got my favorite thing you know he scores right here or whatever your

1:13:25favorite thing again again again that's not really that's not an app it's not

1:13:30using it as an apt using it is this little thing my face that you can tap

1:13:35and launch the app that you don't really think of it that way I think in

1:13:40indicating the hearing is all of them are are in this weather watches

1:13:46compelling is the degree to which it integrates with like the external world

1:13:51as opposed to being like all include into an app like a nap on the phone what

1:13:56makes the phone amazing is the phone anywhere you go you're connected to

1:13:59internet and all apps as your you've read about it unlike you have the web

1:14:03you know HTTP is thriving even if WWE is you know kind of a decline in mobile and

1:14:13if you that's what makes the phone remarkable is the way it keeps you

1:14:16connected to the internet everywhere but that that implies a different user

1:14:21experience when you're inside of an out because you're you're not actually in

1:14:24the apt inside of Facebook we're inside of Twitter you're inside of whatever

1:14:29your the New York Times whatever whatever it might be

1:14:32whereas the watch them with a complication what what it's doing is

1:14:35that complication is putting the information into you like your external

1:14:40world or the notification of interrupting what you're doing now and

1:14:44and the context they are operating in is not contained within the device it's

1:14:49like your world context and I think that hints that why why I'm still both on the

1:14:54watch and why I think you know in the long run this will be not just a luxury

1:14:58but but more much more of a must-have device is the degree to which will let

1:15:04you integrate computing with everything around you

1:15:07the physical world not just the virtual internet world while said I mean take a

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1:19:37will say I quick to the conversion of the centimeters to inches using

1:19:41spotlight which I used to be a third-party resources I used to be a

1:19:44huge watch party user yeah I can keep their life without

1:19:51why would I was a very long time basis what happened was there I their copy

1:19:57paste functionality was we had this weird bug for a very long time never

1:20:00complain about it and so I gave up in an app using another another clipboard

1:20:05manager which by the way I will say like that's the number one reason I don't use

1:20:09nothing more than I do is because I can't always something so I tried out

1:20:22when we tried using this and using spotlight I did have to add using Pierce

1:20:29added something called flashlights flashlight adds a bunch of additional

1:20:33functionality to spotlight include the ability to like I can search directly in

1:20:38different amines or there's a there's all kinds of stuff it adds on to it to

1:20:42make it much more wants part like with like the other custom actions are you

1:20:45can do but I have to admit I i have been with it for like six months down pretty

1:20:50I'm pretty happy with it I never heard of this yeah I could use straight solid

1:20:57I have to have the stuff that me pasting it into their shoulders

1:21:10how we doing on time or or running for too long ride an hour and 16 minutes we

1:21:15have forty minutes technically to do the rest of the show runs but not too long I

1:21:23really do I really do wanna get your thing on this car thing so here's here's

1:21:27my here's my conundrum in a nutshell with the car thing is the issue I have

1:21:32with obviously there was a smokin think there'd be fire there's two possible

1:21:37outcomes here one is that Apple produces like a normal car which i think they

1:21:41could do a good job in her car in very competitive except that I have questions

1:21:46about the long-term trajectory of the car market particularly the rise of

1:21:49Cooper and and car-sharing author thing I think in the long run

1:21:53car ownership is likely to decline which seems odd to watch into that the other

1:22:00options do the self-driving car which i think is you know he is certainly the

1:22:04directory but then I questioned Apple competence in employing office off

1:22:09driving car which seems to fit much more googles strength particularly the with

1:22:16the data intensive approach they're taking to it I i just i mean there's

1:22:21lots of smoke here but it just doesn't seem to quite add up for me maybe this

1:22:28comes from my legs that use a news app national watch I don't because it's

1:22:32unusable either in Taiwan I tried it when I first got the watch and it made

1:22:37it told me to make to illegal turns both of which will get me killed so I don't

1:22:44know why I'm baffled about the whole thing to be helpful I'm just so i cant

1:22:49figure out what I think just a rehash as of this recording we are recording on

1:22:55Wednesday August 26 show part about tomorrow

1:22:59some of the smoke that appeared in the last over the summer

1:23:04a whole bunch of hirings at Apple that we have spotted from like linkedin

1:23:09profiles changing and etcetera of car people of various sorts it doesn't even

1:23:16matter of people with experience in the car industry or from Tesla from BMW

1:23:22what have you and it doesn't make any sense for Apple of hired all of them are

1:23:28something car related and then there was the thing who got that scoop where Apple

1:23:35is trying to book The Guardian did ya a test track that and and I took issue

1:23:42with it and just my point was that the Guardian's headline was something about

1:23:46Apple you know shows that Apple is working on an autonomous car and I

1:23:51didn't see that as being evident that it was an autonomous car right could have

1:23:56been a normal car yeah and it would people said to me and responses that

1:23:59it's not just a test track it's like a little fake town this area

1:24:04naval base San Francisco or something and that it doesn't make sense for

1:24:09anything other than a naval Thomas car because if you want to test a regular

1:24:13car he contested I'm not sure that holds though because I think Apple definitely

1:24:17wants testing area nearby so the fact that they could get a test track in

1:24:22Detroit or something like that that doesn't help them and who knows maybe

1:24:27there are some minor autonomous features in a collision detection or something

1:24:31like that they're working on but that it's not really a self-driving car

1:24:34because that thing to me and I maybe I'm wrong I hope I'm wrong I I think so

1:24:38German cars sound great I really hope that they come sooner than later I hope

1:24:42you know it sounds fantastic

1:24:46it just seems to me though my gut feeling is that way off thats it thats

1:24:50really far off in the future not read it sounds like we're in the same boat here

1:24:57which is interesting to some people I mean like it seems like we're far enough

1:25:01out that Apple wouldn't need to wait for that if that if they want to get into

1:25:04the car business and that they can do this iterative get in and start figuring

1:25:09out how to sell them around the country in the world you know get in and start

1:25:15doing that before they have the self-driving aspect down and then do you

1:25:21know and then come out with up to come out with a self-driving car at the same

1:25:25time that they would have anyway you know and and on a longer scale like what

1:25:29I was saying before about the App Store for the iPhone that it didn't make sense

1:25:33even if they had

1:25:34in a hundred percent internally committed which they weren't but even if

1:25:37they had been internally committed to we should do in App Store for the iPhone it

1:25:43didn't make sense for them to wait until 2008 to ship the first one the one that

1:25:47is shipped in 2007 was totally worth shipping did I think I'll be told they

1:25:51were doubtful if they could shipping a car in 2020 that is sort of traditional

1:25:57in terms of how you drive it and doing a self-driving car 2025 that's that I like

1:26:04that that make sense in being because I they're still clearly a significant

1:26:08market for for a car now and for all the various reasons like I mean biondi

1:26:14you know john loves cars but also just from pure finance perspective there's a

1:26:18lot to like about a balloon a car and yes and the other thing is if they start

1:26:24out with normal cars they could outfit those cars with all the sensors and

1:26:29stuff to start gathering data that would go into a self-driving car like what you

1:26:37know Google mapping cars on the road a broken could theoretically get much like

1:26:43actual cars on the road

1:26:44gathering data improving you know their their data set in there over the stuff

1:26:49that I think of it as being a multistage process that's when they were

1:26:56satisfactory answers I think you've been productive I appreciate it I just wrote

1:27:01them down but I've had them in my head

1:27:03dangerous for me to walk around so now I've got them written down but I've got

1:27:08three reasons why they make sense for Apple why Ms financial cars are

1:27:14expensive and they are big business there are millions of cars sold in the

1:27:20world and they sell for tens of thousands of dollars so that's a good in

1:27:26general business to be in

1:27:28to the market is ripe for technical disruption and it is it's already

1:27:34happening moved to electric drivetrains and stuff like that

1:27:40power power sources and the way that dr dre interchanging based on and self

1:27:47driving as in other areas I guess it's unrelated I guess you could ever stop

1:27:51driving a car that runs on gasoline and you can certainly have a self-driving

1:27:56but that's too big areas though weathers enormous disruption and so it's time you

1:28:03know the market is obviously going to change in the car markets gonna look a

1:28:07lot different than 20 years now and that's not necessarily true now from

1:28:11where it was twenty years ago right the pop top carmakers today are pretty much

1:28:15the same ones top carmakers twenty years ago and cars are technically very very

1:28:20similar I don't think that's going to be true twenty years so it's a good time to

1:28:24get in and they get to a point on that when computers come into a new market

1:28:34and there's the old standbys and then there's the computer companies its the

1:28:42computer companies it seemed to do better building the new the old then

1:28:47then the old thing makers are computerizing there things so yeah it's

1:28:55a dream is a perfectly built these phones and pagers and all of a sudden it

1:29:02got to a point where these things could be real computers and all that sort of

1:29:06an arbitrary distinction saying that you know today's smartphones are real

1:29:09computers in the rim models from ten years ago or not but I I stand by it and

1:29:16that companies like Apple were better at making phones even if the famously don't

1:29:23like the first phone dropped calls whether that was a tease falter Apple's

1:29:27fault whatever

1:29:28Apple got better making phone antennas lot quicker REM gun building computers

1:29:33think that the same thing that happened cars computing matters I think Apple is

1:29:38going to be able to make a card easier than even BMW or Mercedes companies with

1:29:44good you know well-run companies with good histories ago computers

1:29:49there's also a third factor is very simple

1:29:52the car market has always been a hundred years and counting and market where

1:29:58design matters

1:29:58design matters

1:30:00and that plays into Apple strength when I just that is without a couple things

1:30:05out when they first came out I wrote an very similar article like saying there's

1:30:09actually a lot of things that make sense and I would you nailed most of them out

1:30:13just add from the design design matters perspective the making electric cars got

1:30:23a lot simpler so

1:30:26or whether Karzai relative to a mechanical car is a much simpler thing

1:30:30to build motors are much more will unite national car like is a controlled

1:30:35explosion happening constantly and so that the level of refinement need to

1:30:41build a quality engine and all that sort of things is much different in much

1:30:45different skill set then that electric car where it so it's much easier to

1:30:49enter the market now than it was and what happens is you know I think you're

1:30:53driving up this because that having engine expertise in having know how to

1:30:59build a great combustion engine is no longer a price of entry that changes

1:31:06what matters the priority so used to be that you first off making a good Angeles

1:31:12table stakes and then you could get to the quote-unquote user interface but now

1:31:18that the engine is no longer price of entry what matters most

1:31:23has changes because there there is not there is there's new table stakes just

1:31:27look at what BMW's names down to four right

1:31:30the variance motor works exactly exactly and so this is my second point which is

1:31:36that the reason why I think you you said that the list of top makers will be very

1:31:41different twenty years and is today is it's any time because this fundamental

1:31:46change from from mechanical to electric and get this an iPod Touch himself

1:31:49driving stuff which I think you perfectly articulated is gonna be a

1:31:52separate event because you have this shift from mechanical to electric it's

1:31:58everyone's starting from the same spot

1:32:01objectively in this like going to mobile right it wasn't ever like all Microsoft

1:32:06miss more often dismal they were they were on mobile earlier than anyone else

1:32:10the issue was that

1:32:11what mattered in mobile it was a brand new paradigm being good at the desk top

1:32:1510 advantage of mobile in fact if anything it made Microsoft worse off

1:32:21because the temptation to do take the desktop paradigm in stick it on a mobile

1:32:28was overwhelming and it's like what they did right Windows Mobile actually had a

1:32:32start by a start button you press the stylist in a pop-up windows ninety-five

1:32:38menu and I think it's probably gonna be the same challenge with with cars the

1:32:45mechanical it's not just that the mechanical guys no longer have an

1:32:49advantage over the electric guys if that they're actually at a disadvantage

1:32:53because they will be much less capable of truly starting from with a fresh

1:32:59sheet and rethinking what a car means and if electric start with the idea that

1:33:05is going to be a car and all that other stuff that has to gym goes away then

1:33:10yeah I have you like a 17 screen in in their car right that's actually much

1:33:15more important and and I think that's a reason why in these big transitions

1:33:21the big players actually not completely transforming and look at my reasons are

1:33:27no one they're expensive in its people spend a lot of money on the 22 market

1:33:32right protect disruption three it's a market where designers historically

1:33:36mattered that there's the same three things going on with the watch people

1:33:41spend a lot of money on watch it right for technical disruption and by what I

1:33:47mean by that is that we we've reached a point where you can build a UNIX

1:33:52computer that runs in a wide size device which is networked which is a point of

1:33:59disruption to the did you know whether or not you know who knows maybe the

1:34:02digital watches are gonna die again

1:34:04bbw fat ladies but there certainly seems like it's time for disruption because it

1:34:09wasn't possible before and it is possible now

1:34:11and three it's a it's a market where design matters well that's absolutely i

1:34:15mean I don't know that that's more true for any market of the watches maybe you

1:34:22know you'd only other thing you compared to be women's fashion you know in terms

1:34:27of importance of design and the incredible variety of it at the top

1:34:32there so the exact same reasons I think that Apple's got in to watch market

1:34:35exactly the reasons I get in the car market and it's exactly the same reasons

1:34:39they got into the cell phone market they're expensive it's a market that's

1:34:43right for technical disruption in an area where Apple's expert and design

1:34:48matters what I would add I guess the thing would phrase about the Technol

1:34:53disruption who would refine it further to say it's not that these decals

1:34:57eruption it's that what used to be a mechanical object is becoming a computer

1:35:02and a little computer company and a car today is a mechanical object laws

1:35:08computer stacked on top of it like some models like nearly a hundred micro

1:35:12processors but if you think like the reason why there's a hundred different

1:35:15ones in all distinct and they all know it in why it's hard for you to a

1:35:19mechanic even service a modern car is because they're all kind of tacked on

1:35:23their tactic by if you start with the assumption that an electric car is a

1:35:30computer with wheels attached then it becomes very obvious that a computer

1:35:35company is going to is going to have an advantage in the long run and that's a

1:35:40similar phone it it it was no longer a phone with you know calendar

1:35:46functionality or functionality it became a computer that could also make calls

1:35:50and that that that flipping of the paradigm is is what makes it an

1:35:55attractive market for Apple for Google for the big software companies yeah and

1:36:02I think you're exactly right and your example that the entrenched market

1:36:07leaders are the ones about the heart of trouble

1:36:09zooming out far enough to go back and just start over

1:36:13that they've found best example that I can think of and I know I've done this

1:36:17for years is the fact that the iPhone doesn't have a green make a call button

1:36:21and a red Hang Up button up shirt and found an old mansion before I think

1:36:26people have pointed their jobs you know there are certain phone to come up

1:36:29before that didn't have those things but very few it is you know they're David

1:36:34their way off in a corner of phone history every single mainstream cell

1:36:38phone that was ever made before the iPhone had in fact the color is almost

1:36:41never change they had a green button to make a call and a red button hang up the

1:36:45call so getting rid of those buttons was just like a huge and end really does

1:36:51relegating the phone to a nap status you know I've said this before too I think

1:36:55in hindsight I think if there's a mistake that Apple's made in the you

1:36:59know what's it been eight years since the phone I feel I really wish the day

1:37:03would further reduce the magical nature of the of the phone app I don't want I

1:37:12would like to reduce incoming phone call to the same sort of notification I get

1:37:16from anything else I'll tell you why should it take over my screen and Indu

1:37:20yeah sure let it out let me send ringtone so if I have the volume on

1:37:24it'll play the ringtone but I don't want to take over the whole screen and if I

1:37:29have it on silent I just wanted to drop down a little window shade at the top I

1:37:32really their phone calls are just not that important to me so if anything I

1:37:35feel like Apple has fallen behind in reducing the fact that the phone should

1:37:41be just just a nap still has a few magical features you know when you get a

1:37:46phone call the way it takes over no matter what you're doing but for the

1:37:49most part they did and I don't think any of the existing phone makers would have

1:37:52made that jump now that that's exactly where they could but they didn't write

1:37:58well that's always the thing in this is the this is why I started succeed and

1:38:01why incumbents fail like the incumbent to easily has more experience they have

1:38:05more capital they're more money to invest but all that pales in comparison

1:38:10to one year incentives and to your kind of preconceived notions like if you if

1:38:18Microsoft came up there if you want to characterize the OS were computer is

1:38:22like square like

1:38:24make a physical object like they were motivated to make the most perfect

1:38:27square in the world that fit this new paradigm of a PC

1:38:31the problem is when the phone came along what you need with a triangle and

1:38:36Microsoft was so invested in everything but their corporation in every

1:38:40organization incentives were we're perfectly aligned to make the best

1:38:44squares in the world which meant they viewed the triangle as a attempt to push

1:38:52the square into it right

1:38:53whereas if you started from scratch with the trip with the triangle is not just

1:38:57that you you are starting from the same place as Microsoft CEO in equal chance

1:39:03to them you actually a better chance you know what you're targeting and you don't

1:39:07have all that baggage in Croft

1:39:10famously disruption it such as that makes up that there's a financial aspect

1:39:14where they want to keep the old financial strain but it goes deeper than

1:39:17just find that finances it's like the weary way people think white is

1:39:22condition for a certain view of the world and it's incredibly difficult to

1:39:27break out of that particularly in a large organization where the stuff is

1:39:31like is embedded deep in the culture in the way people think about things we

1:39:36just we've gone over ninety minute but I'm just gonna call time out here and

1:39:40I'm just going to say that the remainder of the show doesn't count I wanna take a

1:39:45moment here during this time out and i wanna thank our third sponsor and its a

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1:41:10bucks for a twin 954 a king and all the sizes in-between in between 500 and 9:50

1:41:19it's an outstanding price point for a really good mattress I just it still

1:41:26blows me away when I think about when I got they sent me one of these things

1:41:29last year comes a little box you cannot believe that there is a full size

1:41:34mattress in this little box and it's got instructions kind of waves as much as

1:41:39you'd imagine that way but it is incredibly small box because it's

1:41:43doesn't have springs and stuff like that that stuff is like ancient technology

1:41:46just phone in ages Tanner somehow packet into this thing so you put it in a room

1:41:53where you want the mattress that's the most important thing listen to the box

1:41:56and then you open the box the right way and it's just make school noise that I

1:42:01won't try to replicate as it just sucks in the air and then all of a sudden boom

1:42:06you gotta matters in your room

1:42:07it feels accurate living in Back to the Future something like the future of back

1:42:13to the future where you know you put a little piece in that thing in 10 seconds

1:42:18later you put pizza except instead of a pizza to mattress doesn't make sense I

1:42:23hope so

1:42:24could not be an easier way I've got a whole bunch of tweet and retweet people

1:42:29are like buying these things and they all say the same thing when I thought it

1:42:32was crazy to buy a Mac

1:42:33actress online that I'd been listening to this thing on the talk show and I did

1:42:38it and it is it's a great mattress I think I don't have this year for me this

1:42:43could not this might not still be true but I believe it was it was true for a

1:42:46while if you live in Manhattan you can get a Casper mattress delivered same day

1:42:51by some cat on a bicycle which is crazy absolutely crazy so just dial up at

1:43:00their website as Casper dot com but I do know that code the code is the talk show

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1:43:14the code the talk show host a 50 bucks off so my thanks to them let's wrap it

1:43:22up we gotta wrap this thing up

1:43:25timeout can only last so long I have one last thing that I wanted to talk about

1:43:33and that was this Amazon day in new york new york times you see this I did I

1:43:40write I wrote a lot of a lot of Urdu daily updates in an article

1:43:44yeah so first off I haven't read about it at all so how late you will first

1:43:53there's an article just today on Twitter about someone who used to work for

1:43:57Amazon who left a majority leaving at the same time

1:44:03yeah and I saw that both got cut off from her insurance and which was claimed

1:44:08to be a mistake and then came back or truck parts reports oregon is she was

1:44:14basically marginalized and resigned a few months later which you know

1:44:19certainly so I think just to be clear that sort of behavior in all the kind of

1:44:25anecdotal allegations of treating a miscarriage poorly the cancer patient

1:44:30like that's horrible and and deserves to be condemned the strongest possible

1:44:35terms and I will say I believe that it happened because if you're in an

1:44:42environment where they're pushing so hard

1:44:44if you're if you're running wraps of the line like you're gonna go over it

1:44:49sometimes so I actually tend to believe that there there is there isn't true

1:44:53that stuff so that that that aside just be super clear that that that should be

1:44:59tolerated and I hope that this will produce changes

1:45:03secondly though the the issue I had with the New York Times article specifically

1:45:09was in this sounds really like like silly but was the tone of it I there's

1:45:15all these kind of throw a while ago you'll make a basic kind of marking the

1:45:19person what was soaked sailing of Rosendahl to someone or like older

1:45:23working so hard so you get scotch tape like there was kind of the the the Snort

1:45:29and the disdain that in the condescension they felt it had that

1:45:33really rubbed me the wrong way and the reason it did was the fact of the matter

1:45:40is I know a lot of the renowned in Seattle I personally chosen not to work

1:45:44at Amazon because I had a family and it's not great for that by all accounts

1:45:49ever knows that but the flip side where have I been single I think I would have

1:45:53loved the opportunity like I love the idea of an environment where they are

1:45:57you like you should challenge something if you think something's wrong you stand

1:46:01up be somebody's about position you tell me about presentation that happen at

1:46:05Apple I got likely torn apart one time at Apple and like I think I did cry cry

1:46:10at my desk and you know what I came back and it went to me doing the best work

1:46:14I've done in my career and not only that it it instilled in me the understanding

1:46:20that you can dig deeper in go down a deeper level and get something better

1:46:24and I think that plays out and what i do today like really wanting to deliver

1:46:28something beyond and I can trace it back to that happening and I am pretty

1:46:32hesitant to all these people are paid very well they they all choose to work

1:46:38there they could all get job somewhere else and I am little has been in my high

1:46:42horse and tell it like that I need to take care of them and what they do

1:46:46talking on Amazon's warehouse workers unhappy at the conversation because

1:46:50they're too much worse position at the white collar workers that kinda aspect

1:46:55yeah

1:46:57you covered everything I wanted to cover and what kind of put your finger on it

1:47:01better than me and I feel to me was the guy I hear you're saying about the

1:47:05contents conversation about like you know that they're working they're

1:47:09busting our asses for 20 hours a day answering emails after midnight to send

1:47:14you know scotch tape to people overnight or did you know doing one day and said

1:47:18to and I agree with that and I feel like that's sort of like saying that New York

1:47:23Times writers are busting their asses to send popped up dead trees to people

1:47:28the next every morning through your kind of missing the point it does make people

1:47:34happy when they have good experience with Amazon right where you're like you

1:47:39know your name pair of boots breaks and you can get like the exact right pair of

1:47:44replacement shoelaces and there there the next day that's actually really cool

1:47:48like whereas like free Amazon there or if Amazon doesn't have your looking for

1:47:53it where do you go to get a specific kind of shoe laces in the real world

1:47:56Lake they've made the world a better place I know there's other places or

1:47:59even by Sheila's the Amazon but Amazon's often the place I go to first so I it

1:48:04was at the beginning like if you have a great service experience again actually

1:48:08brains your whole day that the order some shows up a day early like it's it's

1:48:13cool in its ok that is cool

1:48:17humans Lakewood not everything has to be white are eating their vegetables and

1:48:22the other thing that really got me about it was the way that day I thought the

1:48:26article really conflated entirely different aspects of it like exactly

1:48:30what you said if there are eight our problems like like a lack of tolerance

1:48:35you know poor poor poor responses after maternity leave or something like that

1:48:41that's really bad i mean that's over the line and it really does a red alert

1:48:46going off like that so I guess I should be flashing if it's that you you had a

1:48:50crummy idea or poorly thought through idea

1:48:54and you were told this is a crummy idea that poorly thought through that's harsh

1:48:58and i've been there I mean I think everybody has I mean I've been there it

1:49:02hurts but it's you know the way it works and I don't know how that's different

1:49:05than other companies how is it different than Pixar which has a famously ruthless

1:49:10not ruthless meaning mean or personal but just in terms of being really really

1:49:16hard to get a story through and that they always say over and over and over

1:49:20again everything sartre story and they have this story making process that

1:49:23entirely collaborative and you have to keep coming back to the same group of

1:49:28your colleagues and peers and presenting your story and they're gonna pick it

1:49:32apart and tell you everything that's wrong with it and you keep coming back

1:49:35that's how they make Pixar movies like Pixar movies don't get made and they

1:49:39don't have the track record that they have one hit after another by having

1:49:43story meetings where they want to make sure that whoever is presenting feels

1:49:47good coming out of an apple to me there's that anecdote actually speaking

1:49:54he shared it then but it was repeating that New Yorker article where John you

1:49:59know i think is coming out of a meeting in either job I was asking jobs why he

1:50:04was so critical or I have confided in jobs that he was disappointed

1:50:08presentation as I heard the story was I can find a job that he was disappointed

1:50:13presentation and and jobs at home like that was a very selfish thing to do and

1:50:20I was trying to be nice to the guy and in jobs like know you were trying to

1:50:25make him like you but you're concerned about him not liking you if you were

1:50:29honest about the mistake they can actually you're doing an incredible

1:50:32disservice if you're doing a company to service and you should be ashamed of

1:50:35yourself and I was like just hope he was super pissed jobs he's using but it

1:50:41totally transformed the way he knew his job in what he did I give he wasn't

1:50:46honest with what was in front of him he was doing everyone into service in the

1:50:52pursuit of wanting people to like him in like that was just deadly for him and

1:50:57for the company and and all that and I'm eBay CEO says microsoft

1:51:04in fighting in in always backbiting stuff the reality is the old Microsoft

1:51:09legend has it back in the nineties when gates was there

1:51:12vicious and business in a like this sucks like it should have been better

1:51:18and frankly when I was there the issue that I have Microsoft was the way I

1:51:25resigning to promote my first year was I was told by what was great but my how

1:51:30was poor like basically I was toys to blunt and I like people uncomfortable

1:51:36with my word I said in meetings and and like what happened was you do get the

1:51:42back-biting business always exist humans that happens back channels in behind the

1:51:47scenes right in the this is what are better it happened in the open in the

1:51:52back channels where Microsoft thing is gone gone wrong in some respects is all

1:51:57that business never went away just got taken off the top table being visible to

1:52:02everyone got stuffed underneath and then you get this toxic environment that mean

1:52:08you say I left over two years by now that's all right when they I remember

1:52:15the last time I took a screenwriting class in college and i enjoy to

1:52:20graceland was taught by a guy who used to work on Alf anywhere you know

1:52:26everything from from PBS shows that would truly serious to the Alpha

1:52:30Saturday morning cartoon show and he said that you know we had these cribs

1:52:35every week everybody would you have to hand in your your writing on a certain

1:52:39day and never copies and disease free digital everybody gonna copy and the

1:52:43class and indeed after reading for the next class and then we would each have a

1:52:46crit and everybody would discuss each others working he said this is how how

1:52:50hollywood works you criticize the work not the writer not personally don't say

1:52:56you should have done this you talk about like the character should have said this

1:53:00or the dialogue is right you don't say you know I give you and I both written

1:53:04something and I

1:53:05I wouldn't say man you did a crappy job with the dialogue here you decide this

1:53:09line of dialogue doesn't ring true to me it doesn't sound like something that

1:53:12this character would say it's the work not the person that doesn't mean it

1:53:16doesn't hurt when you walk away and you know that you've got it marked up

1:53:19screenplay that's full of really really astute criticism but it's not price

1:53:23especially if you invest in yourself in this weird stuff right it is the best

1:53:27word comes when you put yourself into it and sell to be able to manage someone

1:53:33criticizing your work and they may be doing it correctly but you identify so

1:53:37deeply within that it's hard to handle

1:53:39I get that and ya know where I think the same page I get the also the extra hours

1:53:44thing but again these are these are adults making well into the six figures

1:53:48include stock compensation like that's left for them that's for them to decide

1:53:54in the truth is I don't know anyone who works at a successful tech company

1:53:58particularly either one that Apple and Amazon kind of the user experience which

1:54:05requires that much more perfection and attention to detail or the early stage

1:54:10of any company in their building their competitive advantage that doesn't mean

1:54:15it maybe this is part of people's reaction they don't want they don't want

1:54:19to admit that there's a choice i mean i i do believe you can't have it all like

1:54:24you can't be an attentive father or husband and be a senior vice president

1:54:30at Amazon I don't think it's possible for Apple for that matter and it's

1:54:35something that I don't think we like to talk about like to think about Apple

1:54:38being this great company are out of their products we don't want to like

1:54:42like I think there's an app built almost that comes with these articles and is

1:54:47part of why people react so strongly to them I ben thompson thank you for your

1:54:54time

1:54:54people can find more of your writing street directory dot com and I've season

1:55:022 of exponent will be next up will be coming out next week so I'm back to back

1:55:08in the podcast chair that is your podcast co-hosted with

1:55:12James Allworth yes talk about basketball

1:55:21extent where I make fun of genes are having no idea about any sport did you

1:55:27see that what's his name is back on Twitter and the guy got fired from you

1:55:34since ya Bill Simmons and he called out to the Bombers yeah the Clippers yup

1:55:42that was bill Simmons that's what happens when you're ninety minutes

1:55:47anyway thank you I will let you go and talk to you soon I look forward to

1:55:53hearing the next episode of your show all season