89: ‘Cat Pictures’, With Marco Arment (Side 2)

0:00:00all right back to the worst episode ever to be four hours look it up soon but

0:00:09it's summertime I need long denied to a two-parter with you last time yes I

0:00:16think we're incapable of making one's under two hours

0:00:19well maybe we'll do that again I wanted to talk about custom fonts and conquer

0:00:23and overcast and you're using a phone called concourse by Matthew Broderick

0:00:32love it great fanfare as I remember talking to you about this fun got my

0:00:37been a year ago I remember you just like running up the flagpole hey what do you

0:00:44think about this I was like oh my god that is beautiful

0:00:49yeah I went about about last summer you about a year ago I was looking at tons

0:00:54of funs forever cast looking at various intervals funds with Instapaper I was

0:00:58all using I was using almost all serif fonts for all the reading faces there

0:01:03were some sans-serif 10 more popular but I was like the seraphs ones better when

0:01:08they were largely on my bed everything they did it felt like sheriff was

0:01:11somehow the proper solution for reading text it should be in serifs because

0:01:17tariffs are old and fancy and coming out like print yeah exactly I got burnt out

0:01:24on them and whenever I would do something with a serif font I would

0:01:30always think it should look better but then it didn't actually look better and

0:01:35it didn't work as well on screens for it looked good big but not small or

0:01:39something like that like there was that there were problems with saris in

0:01:44practice I i burned out on them so I was looking at good sans-serif interface

0:01:47funds for overcast and the problem of sensor is that there aren't that many

0:01:53distinct styles that are generalizable to look good enough interface as an

0:01:58investment maybe this is a terrible statement but that's not how I said no I

0:02:03think it's true well I also think that and another end of

0:02:09it is there's an awful lot of them that are all that are really good finds

0:02:14really good I like but they're too close to Helvetica to justify not using

0:02:19Helvetica

0:02:20like an uncanny valley situation specifically given Iowa s like in the

0:02:26general world if you want to use Franklin Gothic instead or you want to

0:02:33use universe which is a great great Helvetica ish find great fantastic fun

0:02:40but in the context of iOS where Helvetica is the ubiquitous ever-present

0:02:47to fall if your gonna you something different as you be different enough

0:02:50that it's all yet different exactly when there's an awful lot that a rule that

0:02:54out on those grounds

0:02:56exactly and I i tons of ants from big and small founders and designers and I

0:03:04had a problem with many of them that it was like you know this is just too close

0:03:06to love it just looks kinda weird not being disclosed so I looked at a bunch

0:03:14what what I liked about concourse the most was that it was narrow and and not

0:03:22by not by a massive amount it doesn't look like a condensed version of a

0:03:26following among a lot of fun to have condensed variants or even a compressed

0:03:30for the Super condensed very content very condensed altered narrower and

0:03:36concourse is narrower without looking like an arrow font and what that allowed

0:03:42me to do is fit more characters on a lie and for it for an afternoon news to be

0:03:48used primarily on iPhones we're ahead to display lots of like one line titles for

0:03:53things that is actually a really nice feature to have it makes it a little bit

0:03:57less likely you're gonna have to put ellipses in there and truncated career

0:04:01and even if you do you'll at least get more

0:04:03or a little bit more the actual title in rallies get like one or two more words

0:04:07that end and it had a great balance on screen of size vs weight and it came in

0:04:14it comes in like nine different weights and it also has awesome small-caps

0:04:19variant would use its effect on my favorite little things in concourse yes

0:04:25says the guy who got a small campus option into a nap

0:04:31you know protects it and they gave me like that the pairing of of like you

0:04:40know full full regular text as like you know medium medium weight regular text

0:04:46as a body and title font and then a dinner usually lighter in color

0:04:52small-caps fund for like a caption fund or the subtitle and then using it on the

0:04:57buttons and and the links like that I I found a combination early on and I liked

0:05:02it so much and it works so well for interface to have like that like that

0:05:06like to get the two different styles of conservative from roles and have them

0:05:10paired nicely on screen together I think it works you know it it fits naturally

0:05:15with what is clearly your taste and interfaces and your personal style and I

0:05:22think you know and I think you probably agree with me that I was seven has been

0:05:26very good for you personally has an app developer who does the whole thing

0:05:32yourself for the most part and and that asterisk in one quick second but you're

0:05:40like a one one man show you did the development of the back end and you did

0:05:45the the interface and you know that some of the stuff that was expected free iOS

0:05:527 in a nap was things that you couldn't do you know the stuff that has to be

0:05:57done like in Photoshop right

0:05:59textures and materials III am NOT a graphical artist friend so I could not

0:06:05do those things

0:06:05Instapaper maybe got away with it and was a good app for you to do with your

0:06:09your abilities as designer because it was so

0:06:13know literally just the tax it was all about the text but there's other ways

0:06:17we're maybe instead papers circa you know 2009 2010 maybe should have not in

0:06:25a while you're reading but why you weren't reading should have had more

0:06:28visual to fit in

0:06:30exactly where as I was 7 really plays into the skill sets that you have

0:06:37yeah I mean I I was seven was extremely lucky for me because like this this

0:06:42shift happened that that departed from all the things I couldn't do myself all

0:06:47these like heavily textured heavily graphically themed apps from from 6 and

0:06:52earlier by six it was fading out so early from 5 and earlier all of that

0:06:57lifestyle it very quickly and then what was brought in was this this visual

0:07:03language that I could do myself and I was not expecting that at all I was very

0:07:08very happy because otherwise like the magazine design with a lot of help from

0:07:14Pacific home and she was a very simple Appin and design work in a number in the

0:07:22thousands of dollars to have a professional designer helping in

0:07:26overcast would have been probably easily tens of thousands of dollars worth of

0:07:32design work and also to take it Lautner so we know what is more expensive and I

0:07:38would have had to have to keep going back and forth with the designer to work

0:07:41out some of these things and the whole president even more complicated more

0:07:45expensive long are you know it it just would have been harder for me and and be

0:07:51able to do it all myself is so valuable as I can tweak things immediately I can

0:07:57I can visualize something my home just do it I can see how things look I can

0:08:01play with it and then I can do it all myself and at all costs me nothing set

0:08:05my own time with him already

0:08:06you know kind of getting for free in a way

0:08:10personality I think clearly it does you know one of the reasons why I never went

0:08:14the whole full textured iOS 5 after out is that that was really my thing I

0:08:19wasn't my style I would use the absence of that but I was never that into that

0:08:22style whereas this style this is really

0:08:26me this is and it's just so happens that what I like and what I can do just

0:08:32became fashionable year ago the one thing you do get help on the here's my

0:08:37asterisk from a couple seconds ago was the app icon right right and that look

0:08:41good shape the

0:08:42the tower inside the circles and that was a Lua Mantia Pacific yeah yeah yeah

0:08:50Pacific home / Louie Mantia yeah yeah and it's great I love the icon I know

0:08:56that the icons are got everybody will have an opinion on an icon and then I

0:09:02love them that this was this was my question is to me this is such a great

0:09:09icon and it does everything and i cant do where it's recognizable its

0:09:15distinctive it gives it a brand that does all these things happen also think

0:09:21that it's just an attractive shade of orange I like it I've always been a fan

0:09:25of orange if ever there was an icon that might be beyond you know I can sucks

0:09:33maybe this was it but you're saying it's not ok most people love it

0:09:40however I'm hearing from all the ones who don't I'm here to do which is why

0:09:43people love it but there's there's a handful of people who are like extremely

0:09:49offended by it like I i you know i nothing at all been books on you but I

0:09:53like I've never cared about icons that strongly like yeah I mean I will notice

0:09:59about I conference at but I'm not going to like make my usage decision based on

0:10:04which one has the best icon that I don't like I I would rather have a good app

0:10:08icons off I think people people who have opinions on apps in general and just

0:10:14want to express their opinions will often I icons the app icon gets a

0:10:19disproportionate share of that feedback right like you said it cause it's not it

0:10:25probably is like if you really had to use a beautiful great app that had what

0:10:30you thought was a lousy icon

0:10:31that's the best problem I could happen this app right you know if the app has a

0:10:38bad name

0:10:40you know it's like ok well yeah you can control it a little bit but who cares

0:10:44really yeah it's ideally you know we have a great name and memorable name you

0:10:49know but if it has allowed to name it is seems like it so much better than having

0:10:54deep problems with the software itself but yet I can't get all this feedback

0:10:58and I think it's because it's just so neatly encapsulated and so petty that it

0:11:05just draws you know it's like the old adage about politics in college

0:11:15University's Woodrow Wilson said that being president at State Treasurer than

0:11:19being president at princeton because politics there is just so meaningless

0:11:24worse something like that and the icon here like I I almost didn't use this

0:11:33icon I went back and forth and and i i think it's easy to it's easier to be

0:11:40probably get angry at modern app icon for iOS 7 because I S seven totally

0:11:46change what icons are supposed to look like and the new styles is much more

0:11:52polarizing the old-style ever was and so the new style a lot of the rigs you get

0:11:57for a new app icon is rage against the iOS 7 general aesthetic for icons and

0:12:04what this icon did thanks to Louie Louie is is is one of the people who like he

0:12:11he knows which rules to break and when to break them and and that's unusual and

0:12:19it's one of those designer I actually think that it could've it would

0:12:23translate very well to the old world like if you if we took the SAT back in

0:12:27time two years you have to redo the whole app interface but you could use

0:12:31this icon and examine just a little bit of 3d shading

0:12:34around the edges or something like that but yeah and I like this iconic what I

0:12:40like about like Louie was really was interested in about using the white as

0:12:44the inner color at as that circle the intercooler and then having this black

0:12:47outline that look good in the shape like its most Iowa 7 icons have like one

0:12:54fewer color basically and end this like it Louise Louise try this out and let

0:13:00you know that actually looks really nice now I want to do even further first if

0:13:05you look at the the overcast FM Twitter account that artwork is why I asked me

0:13:12to take this icon and make something that might make a good like podcast

0:13:16album art background so I can be shown as the default album art for some of the

0:13:20didn't have art and I liked it so much that for a while and for beta 1 this was

0:13:27the app icon and USL hated it and then and you can but but like I even like I

0:13:34like doing things that are mostly conforming to style so it looks good but

0:13:40just like putting someone there is a bit with some part of it is oftentimes

0:13:43that's what makes it good and so we did it with like having the white dinner

0:13:48color and having this black outline around around the inner shape I would

0:13:53have pushed even further if I was totally unchecked by reason and logic

0:13:57and then you know i i try try this like fiery textured version of the background

0:14:01a little bit in the background i mean as the beta 1 icon and and everyone hated

0:14:07except me and so I changed it back to bed soon as I can ok actually write this

0:14:10does look better having billion I don't think he hates not fair I think it was

0:14:13everybody I think everybody was just like you're not trust me this is like I

0:14:21i work best in an environment like that where I am able to try crazy things but

0:14:27I have some people who can like get me a little bit and say you know what

0:14:30actually you know that that's a little bit far gotta pick your battles and I

0:14:33think part of what makes somebody had beta tester is whether they know how to

0:14:37pick their battles and therefore in other words that

0:14:40they're only gonna be adamant about things they genuinely feel adamant about

0:14:43and they're gonna tell tell offered suggestions or I wish hey I wish this

0:14:48were like this but if they don't feel that strongly about it and you disagree

0:14:51they just let it go and no but that can they won't give up there and keep

0:14:55sending that feedback they won't get on their feelings won't be hurt because you

0:14:59took one of the things the wrong way but I would do that I would if you if you're

0:15:03too

0:15:04option choices for the icon were one that was good and one that was bad dude

0:15:09insisted on a bad one

0:15:11I would have written you privately and said you know made my case for the good

0:15:14one

0:15:15whereas if you had picked this icon I would I would have given you my two

0:15:19cents I think the other one better and if you disagreed that I would have never

0:15:23said it again

0:15:24yeah but I probably would have brought it up on this show

0:15:29like alternately like I'm I'm glad I tried this other icon because it was

0:15:34pushing that boundary so I gotta keep it up you can't leave take it off the

0:15:38Twitter account for a couple of weeks shows green i mean i i like it on

0:15:45Twitter as a little bit more personality two more things i wanna talk about how

0:15:50long it took you to make the appt sounds like it took from your do right by Marco

0:15:54dorigo took about 14 months with maybe a little bit of work that you done before

0:15:59then

0:15:59yet the audio engineer prototype earlier than that about you have you know spring

0:16:04you said spring 2013 and you shipped in the App Store this week in the middle of

0:16:08July 2014 yes about about 14 months yeah so I'll tell you this and I mean this

0:16:13i'm not buttering up because you're my friend because you're on my show one of

0:16:17the things I really liked best about this app is it to me it feels like a 2.0

0:16:20it does not feel like a 1.0 app and in many ways that's because of the beta is

0:16:26like like what I think what I shipped for beta one was like a 1.5 yeah yeah

0:16:32maybe it did was a remarkably productive beta

0:16:36that is true but even then it was polish afterwards though and to me it may be

0:16:41again it's Vesper colored eyes were we shipped first after a couple of months

0:16:46without sink and then spend the majority of this year today overwhelmingly doing

0:16:54sink and then you know another way to put it is that you know maybe Vesper 1.0

0:17:00wouldn't really ship until last month when we ship the virtually sink and we

0:17:05had a version that was usable and I don't regret it

0:17:07none of us regret it but it never really it wasn't it clearly wasn't complete

0:17:13without some kind of online saying and i also think it's interesting that it took

0:17:17about the same amount of time you know somewhere a little bit over a year to

0:17:22ship a good app hasn't online sink companion to it may be for me but maybe

0:17:29that streaming yeah maybe maybe but I don't know there's a certain you know

0:17:34you could have shipped a podcast kinda didn't have the online component that

0:17:38was more like a lot of other ones you know just ship it sooner and have it do

0:17:41it and you could have shipped version that didn't have the custom audio stuff

0:17:46just let help you manage your podcast but didn't have the custom audio stuff

0:17:50first item evict you you picked off two or three really difficult things the

0:17:57custom audio engine and the complete online version that I i to me it shows

0:18:08that it feels like it clearly must have taken over here I don't think you should

0:18:12feel like you were late I know you get you give yourself a hard time that back

0:18:15in September you thought you were six months away from

0:18:18I thought you out of your mind when you said that xoxo I think she's crazy

0:18:23psycho ship for two years and it's you know I it's a number 1 I'm very proud of

0:18:32what I shipped and I'm very happy with how it went number two though I was

0:18:37shipping this into an extremely mature market and so over the last 24 hours I

0:18:43have heard so many people who are who are very happy with it but I've also

0:18:48heard so many people

0:18:49who who expect a lot more because if it doesn't matter that's a 1.0 it matters

0:18:56that are shaping a podcast after the iOS App Store in 2014 and then the bars

0:19:00raised into a market full of these years old apps and although actually castro is

0:19:07only one year old roughly and castro is one of the most popular apps for iOS oh

0:19:13yeah I'll bet it's also even more disproportionately popular with

0:19:18listeners of the show it's a great app almost certainly is a fantastic app

0:19:23I wouldn't be surprised if a majority of people listening to talk right now are

0:19:28using either overcast or Castro probably castro first cos if only because its

0:19:34older and overcast because everybody read my sights on early adopter it's

0:19:40very possible and and you know and I like castro because castro and I are

0:19:45really don't think are competing for the same people I think it's there are two

0:19:51very different takes on a nap it's it's a terrific forced to eat but you know I

0:19:56get city's two very different styles different set of priorities so different

0:20:01features closer to one of the other I i dont really see them as like a cutthroat

0:20:07competitor for the same people I see as both doing two very different takes on

0:20:11the same problem that are going to appeal to mostly non overlapping circles

0:20:16of people and the other thing you did that i think is pretty nice and I hope

0:20:20it catches on

0:20:21I've never seen it before those you've got a section is it in the settings are

0:20:25the About screen so you settings where it's so great and so Marco and whisking

0:20:34wiska said to me the other day privately because he thinks it's gonna take by

0:20:38next year everybody's gonna have this

0:20:40release everybody in our circle you have a section you're like hey overcast is

0:20:44not for you try these other great apps and you've got a list of five other iOS

0:20:50podcasting apps I think it's five castro downcast cast party catcher Wrangler

0:20:58right and you

0:21:00randomized the order yet every time the screen loads it shows in a random order

0:21:04so there's no alphabetical bias and there's no I have no right no friendship

0:21:09bias but here is five apps that you might want to try this app is not

0:21:15meeting your needs is as a podcast app and it's great and it's part of the GFDL

0:21:20it's genius is is somewhere out there there's marketing somebody with a real

0:21:25marketing title capital and marketing background who's joking right now this

0:21:30isn't saying that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard

0:21:32never why would you ever you know you there's no thing on the back of a can a

0:21:37coke that says don't like the taste try Pepsi and with it and and instructions

0:21:44for the nearest way to go dry wood is the quickest way to go try a Pepsi but I

0:21:51think absurd different right it's like you're showing it to people who already

0:21:54have the app on their phone right you've got them right if you if if the app is

0:21:59for them

0:22:00you've got them they've they've downloaded the app they've put it on the

0:22:03phone and even checking out the setting if you aren't making them happy

0:22:09why not show them the other apps yet and that was kind of that was kind of the

0:22:16rationale there was like you know I'm not going to pretend like there's no

0:22:20other ads in this category that's you know that that doesn't that's a stupid

0:22:23and I'm not gonna pretend like I'm different Pakistan the App Store and and

0:22:29I think it's a way to to help everyone it helps them potentially by by getting

0:22:35themselves and it helps me by by making people respect me and my apt even more

0:22:43and and there's no downside to this the fact is if you want to try every one of

0:22:50his podcast apps are spending less than 20 books you know it gets

0:22:53I'm not talking about major investments huge lock in like I know as we talked

0:23:00about how these different expectation of people have a protest outside how they

0:23:03want things to behave I know as a user of these things as a listener podcasts I

0:23:09know that you know that certain apps will just hit you and certain ones just

0:23:13won't and I don't want someone abusing my apt they hate it you know i i don't

0:23:18want to force them to use my apt if there's a better one out there and so

0:23:24you know I'd rather I'd rather you be happy like I've with Instapaper I talk a

0:23:30little bit this week so I won't be two overlapping here but with Instapaper by

0:23:35the time I sold it I was in about half of the money from the optional

0:23:39subscription which was a dollar a month and you got almost nothing for it and I

0:23:43advertise it that way it was it was mostly a way to guys like you know give

0:23:47me more money if you feel like it was basically it and to be making almost

0:23:51half their income from that is crazy and I was way more than I ever expected and

0:23:57the reason that work was because over time I had built up a surplus of

0:24:00goodwill among my customers by giving them free updates all the time and

0:24:04everything and you know but just by giving them more than giving the more

0:24:07value than what they spend on the app I built up a surplus of goodwill and so on

0:24:11and put up a thing saying he can give me more money if you want

0:24:14many of them did and so I feel like you know like goodwill is something you can

0:24:20monetize that sad that sounds awful I know but like it if you put it on better

0:24:26terms like it will be returned to you like it comes around and not endear not

0:24:34completely not everyone's gonna give you money for nothing but but a decent

0:24:37portion of it more than you have you think will come around and so being good

0:24:43to people is an important part of a business model it's it's in addition to

0:24:49being a nice cool thing to do it's also smart that is the only way to do

0:24:53approach it with any kind of interesting

0:24:55long-term and my long-term I have trouble thinking more than five years

0:25:02five years to me seems like a long way off but it's almost certain that I am

0:25:07stalking me writing during fireball probably still doing the show you know

0:25:14probably still working with David Brandt on something some maps Q branch you know

0:25:18maybe Vesper will be not done but but you know move aside to the next appt

0:25:25tomorrow but the only so many ways of doing business they're not thinking that

0:25:35maybe even five years ahead right because it's a you're gonna burn through

0:25:38good will write you can't you can't last long at all while you're burning through

0:25:41good well I think and exactness and it's you know it's just a short sighted let's

0:25:48just burned through good well for 18 months and then see if somebody will buy

0:25:52us because we have a lot of users mentality is another question and sort

0:25:57of related to last is pricing and I know that you spent a lot of time thinking

0:26:01about this and you've come up with the app is free

0:26:07there's only one version of it it's you just get it downloaded for free you can

0:26:13use it you can use it forever for free you pay that online in a purchase its

0:26:21right now it's 499 that's it you buy that and it unlocks a bunch of cool

0:26:26features I I thought about so many different models I at various times in

0:26:34the last like you know six months to a year I have I've been mentally committed

0:26:39to a pay what you want model with multiple buckets that you know you just

0:26:45pay something anything and if you pay anything at all I get you all the

0:26:49features but you can pay like three different levels right now thought about

0:26:52the same thing with subscriptions same thing with revisions but named pledges

0:26:56NPR terminology public radio terminology because this is about podcasting you can

0:27:01be a pledging member maybe that make more people do it who knows a lot about

0:27:06paid up front

0:27:07free with ads free with Squarespace advertising in inside the app sorts of

0:27:12stuff like that and I i came up with relatively towards the end of

0:27:18development is very subtle on this it was a very recent decision I just came

0:27:23up with this because I realized like the more complicated and make it the few

0:27:26people gonna do it and and the more headaches I will have dealing with it

0:27:30support headaches in a customer expectations not much what they're what

0:27:33they're getting stuff like that just was not it was not gonna be worth complexity

0:27:37and so I went with just ok

0:27:40five bucks and a purchase on locks limits period a very simple old model of

0:27:46your iOS release but a simple model that would give me the most flexibility to to

0:27:54do things in the future like I can I can make it a webcam and form so that people

0:27:59who can't use in-app purchases for whatever reason can can use the web

0:28:02version by at their stuff like that and it's easy to support and it's clear to

0:28:07the customers what they're getting and what they're paying for and when they

0:28:10were paying how much you paying any any kind of subscription ordination type

0:28:15model it becomes less clear people ok what am I paying for how much will I be

0:28:19charged is forever or just for a year or what and when you do it without thinking

0:28:24much in summer 2014 and always sunny summer 2015 when you're charged again

0:28:29reminded you know bioassay however the magnetic and why is this thing that I

0:28:36haven't used this app in Lemont why is it trying to charge me and you can't

0:28:42give you so yeah it's so at this method was just way easier for everybody for me

0:28:49and for the customers and I think that these will result in better sales there

0:28:54was this heyday I mean we've talked about it you and i talked about on the

0:28:59show

0:28:59and other shows we've all talked about everybody is involved in India apps and

0:29:04generals talked about it in the post

0:29:06App Store world where yes we've been exposed to a massive market especially

0:29:10for those of us who are no match before way bigger than we ever could have

0:29:15imagined before and now it's getting to the point where maybe it's even as big

0:29:19in terms of people as as even windows was as a market size in terms of people

0:29:23which is amazing and it's a great opportunity and we've destroyed the one

0:29:29thing that we've found before that worked as a way to get people to buy it

0:29:34which was to let you try the app for free and then pay for it if you want and

0:29:39I feel like you've used this in a purchase to be able to me it's like I

0:29:44thought about it he announced you know how I'm going to charge for it and I

0:29:49thought about it I was like it seems very very obvious this seems like this

0:29:54is the way to go you get lots of people it to try it with no risk and then if

0:29:59they like it they will buy it cause I thought that you know it seemed like a

0:30:05good line you drew what you get when you pay for it because you know seems like a

0:30:10no brainer to me it's hard to know it's hard for any app to know where that line

0:30:16you know and I don't know that drawn the right lines surly time will tell people

0:30:20people are nuts about the whole cup of coffee thing you know my god I can't

0:30:25believe you want to this dance anthems cup of coffee but there's this weird I

0:30:29don't think it's that crazy though there's a weird psychological thing

0:30:33where you somehow don't even want to pay $1 I do it I spend dollar willingly here

0:30:38there to buy new apps to see what they look like but I you know

0:30:42a liar I don't look at software the way normal people do I think it's kinda

0:30:47normal that people see $0.99 before they even get to see if the app really works

0:30:54on your phone as as a risk and they want to take it and there's a number of

0:30:59factors here that that they know make the coffee analogy not work and you know

0:31:05part of it is like people have been burned a lot in the past by bad acts and

0:31:10they've paid for an app that was not as good as I wanted or didn't do it they

0:31:14thought it would and then they get out that money I mean you can you can email

0:31:17apple and request a refund but most people don't even know that you can do

0:31:20that let alone how to do that and they would actually go through with it you

0:31:23know so so for the most part yours out of this money and so that's that's no

0:31:27good

0:31:28even even on platforms refunds are easier and I think Windows Phone is

0:31:33still the easiest Windows Phone makes it really pretty easy to initiate a refund

0:31:38and it goes through I forget what the time period is an hour or day but let's

0:31:44just say it's an hour you download that you pay for an app you downloaded you

0:31:47load on her phone and you don't like it you just go back to the App Store and

0:31:51selling a refund and the Papas removed from your phone and the developer never

0:31:57gets the money it's almost like it like the transaction doesn't even happen

0:32:00right and I do think I think it would be great if Apple implemented that but at

0:32:05this point you know they haven't already I don't think they ever are but i dont I

0:32:10still don't think that would get people over the hump I don't think it would do

0:32:13much I think it would be it would be better than not having it at all but I

0:32:17don't think it would get people over that psychological harm of giving over

0:32:21$1 before they even try the app right I mean I wouldn't do that on the Mac like

0:32:25on the Mac where I live it's a different environment and we've had previous

0:32:29expectations when something is available only in the Mac App Store for a paid

0:32:34price and there is no trial right I probably won't buy it I expect a trial

0:32:39in the Mac because there have always been present a lot of time these apps

0:32:42costs like 30 $57 it's very hard to justify spending 80 bucks on on a fancy

0:32:49app that you've never tried before that you can try when refunds are difficult

0:32:54you know it's a very hard thing to do paid web apps have never really become a

0:32:58thing for various reasons they have like in in like certain verticals

0:33:03but knowledge a mass market right and i think that but what they have done

0:33:10though is that they've still leave reinforce the idea that for something

0:33:14that you see on your computer screen

0:33:15you should be able to just check it out first and of course for a lot of people

0:33:20it's turned it into everything should just be free period for ever and that's

0:33:25a separate argument but I still think that the thing that made indeed software

0:33:30development possible on the Mac and had great so great I think the reason it's

0:33:36so great on magazine you can still go to developers website and downloaded the

0:33:40demo exactly even if you eventually do go to the absurd about it and it's

0:33:45different but iOS and Android the reason why the coffee analogy does not work as

0:33:50you can say well you know you you would spend $3 and coffee without thinking

0:33:53about it that's true but there aren't people giving away coffee that's pretty

0:34:00good for free every single street corner Starbucks made every coffee free yet

0:34:06every on every street corner you could walk out of any building anywhere or

0:34:09your house on the corner the street there are people giving away pretty good

0:34:14coffee for free all the time like then it would be harder to be a coffee shop

0:34:18the charges for coffee like it it isn't about the amount of money it's about the

0:34:22competition and alternatives and the fact is there's so many apps there's so

0:34:29many apps that it doesn't matter that you're charging only a few dollars up

0:34:34front the fact is there's 10 free ones right next to you in the App Store and

0:34:38people just pick those same thing applies to the web

0:34:42you know it's the reason why pay balls on the web don't often do very well is

0:34:47because there's just tons of alternatives that are all free and I

0:34:50can't read your site

0:34:51firehouse doing you a favor by reading your site on someone else's site and

0:34:55it's terrible but that's that's the reality and you're in that like just

0:34:59give me some to read right now

0:35:00now and it's to see if you could go read something they are not as interested in

0:35:04but it's only two clicks away or you can read the thing you're interested in but

0:35:07you've gotta take out your credit card until informed forget it you know that's

0:35:11the big problem I have a wall spaces that right now at this moment even if

0:35:16you've got in your backyard had to me maybe this month I will sign up for the

0:35:21New York Times paywall maybe but in the meantime at any given moment when you're

0:35:24just looking for something to read you just gonna keep clicking into somebody

0:35:27gives you something a little different with that but anyway I think that the

0:35:33free app and then pay for differentially I don't know pay for it to unlock the

0:35:37rest of the features not the did some overcast as the first have to do it that

0:35:43way but I think it played perfectly and I think it's probably gonna be I think

0:35:49we're going to see a lot more that I hope so I mean I wish I give us more

0:35:53options regarding this matter doesn't work for all apps like certain apps it's

0:35:58very hard to know where to draw that line of ok what do you offer free and

0:36:01what do you charge for because you know certain things like it it works well for

0:36:06like games for instance you can lick you can give away the first few levels and

0:36:10have additional levels for purchase or you can do things with like oh you can

0:36:13get a power up that you only have to unlock the game to get this power up

0:36:16stuff like that you can do but think about the calculator like what you do

0:36:20charge for the nine button like how do you where do you draw that line a

0:36:24calculator like how true it's it's a hard thing it's a hard thing to do right

0:36:30and with all credits James Thompson peak out who I think every joke but it

0:36:37doesn't work for Apple has it has a rule against time bomb demos like you can't

0:36:42just say are you can try everything in the apt for a week and then it stops

0:36:46working on this you pay you actually can't do that by policy

0:36:49correct even for a lot of people know that I think developers know it but a

0:36:54lot of people know that right and and and i think that rule I'm sure Apple was

0:37:01well-intentioned when they made that rule but I think that rule holds back a

0:37:04lot of a lot of link trial where ya their goal but I think I think it's that

0:37:09hierarchy of Apple's priorities where it's

0:37:12first second their users and third developers in that order and maybe it's

0:37:20irrelevant Apple so one is out to get better for users of the app doesn't get

0:37:27time bomb so therefore the abscam P time because it uses your noise when the app

0:37:32that they've been using for the last 30 days suddenly stopped working I think

0:37:36that you know and whatever extra money Apple would get from the 30% cut from

0:37:41the extra apps that would be sold if that was allowed because it does work

0:37:45that's the thing is I'm bombing you know done appropriately is a very effective

0:37:50way for indie developers to get let people try a nap and then and then buy

0:37:55it

0:37:55yeah but it's an unfortunate that the first so many so many apps aware of that

0:38:01is the best way to do it is the other problem is if you have something like

0:38:05suppose you have a calculator app and there's some like you know certain like

0:38:11special longer them button that most people don't need and you want to put

0:38:15that behind the wall so that only people who really need that will pay for it

0:38:18will then most users won't pay for it then you have a very bad conversion rate

0:38:23of free to paid but if you like you to be careful what you limit like somebody

0:38:28asked me on Twitter today I forget where it's all it's all a blur at this point

0:38:32somebody asked me they were angry at the limitation to put in place and they said

0:38:37why don't you offer all features for free and just limit you to only

0:38:43subscribe to like five podcasts and I thought about that that was one of the

0:38:47options considered the reason why didn't do that is because when you set that

0:38:50limit first of all that would complicate things like if you only can listen to 5

0:38:55podcasts what I do when you import european all file for twenty podcasts

0:38:59this problem with that right hand if and you know right along that line if it's

0:39:05really important to me as a user that you can import my hundred podcast OPM

0:39:10file how could I know that that the app is even gonna work for me right exactly

0:39:13so so that's problem number one but the problem number two it used to be very

0:39:17careful what you do here because anything you put behind a paywall most

0:39:23people will try to find a reason to justify

0:39:26by not getting it they will they will try to stay on the free side and try to

0:39:31not need what's on the other side and so if I say limit 5 podcasts and then I

0:39:39will these discovery features a try to promote new podcasts and people stayed

0:39:43far away from them because now they're now they have to pay ya like 10 I I

0:39:48don't like then what I'm doing is I am discouraging people from trying out new

0:39:53podcasts that's a terrible thing to do why would I want to do this like so you

0:39:58have to be very careful what you limit because whatever you limit your going to

0:40:01then strongly discouraged people from crossing that limit so that's why I

0:40:05limited things that are basically power user features that don't really have a

0:40:10major downside that most if you don't get it

0:40:13like I've limited number of playlists you only have one number of items in a

0:40:18place in the top five like these are things looking up our usual care most

0:40:22people won't play back speeds and the effects and cellular downloads those are

0:40:29all things that power users would like to do but the app is very functional

0:40:34without them and so like that I i feel like those are safer limits put in place

0:40:39and change all these next month if it doesn't work helped but I feel like

0:40:43that's those like safer lines to draw then I'm going to make you not wanna

0:40:49listen to more podcasts in my podcast app that's terrible i mean take this

0:40:54break this opportunity to thank our next sponsor our good friends at Harry's

0:41:00carries provides high quality men's shaving staff at a great price

0:41:10whole point is it's just before the founders were some of the founders of

0:41:17Warby Parker their eyeglass companies same basic idea they looked at the

0:41:21market they said hey everything on the market why is it so expensive why can't

0:41:25we make good stuff in a way lower price same thing with shaving blades

0:41:34and their half the price of the equivalent blades from Gillette or other

0:41:42big company shake shake it out there was a person familiar with ya I was too I

0:41:49don't know why and that's what I can compare to his dad and it's the same

0:41:54type of quality to me it just feels like a nice quality blade here's a seriously

0:41:59these guys take it this is what I level of the story that they bought their own

0:42:03razor blade factory in Germany to the day could control the sharpness in

0:42:10strength of their blades are not just like white labeling generic razor blades

0:42:14and putting them in a stylish package they tell you know really really control

0:42:19the quality and I love the design style of their stuff I don't think it's just

0:42:25cheaper than July I think it's actually better looking and Gillett to me like

0:42:29the the blade that I got the razor I got from from carries it looks to me like I

0:42:37could be using in 20 years and it would look just as new and just a stylish

0:42:41whereas Gillette's you know like architecture or industrial design to me

0:42:50it looks so trendy and it's you know like to take a look at the Transformers

0:42:55movies it looks like you know by next year it's gonna look like you're using

0:42:59it 2013 razor the price the price difference is truly truly significant i

0:43:06think is like two bucks to get a treat played with Harry's even less than $1 50

0:43:11if you get the big pack yet to get the bend and Jill added you know it's like

0:43:14even in the Amazon is i three $54 and equality is there i i i use it you you

0:43:23should switch to using Ryan yeah I've been using it for much of my show that

0:43:28I'm almost through it I think we're more the handle is is amazing and the blades

0:43:34I would say are probably I was on par with Gillette Fusion blades which my

0:43:40previous favorite and it at half the price you can't beat it handles the word

0:43:45I was looking for when I was trying to say

0:43:46choose between razor blade that you know they handle things take into it as a

0:43:53shaving heard everything I double the double edge safety razor blades from

0:44:00Israel and everything adds this is good stuff it is not a joke anymore it's not

0:44:07just me telling you to go out there by this cheaper shavings I'm town yet the

0:44:11quality is there it's really good they're very very serious about it I

0:44:14really do like it better but just because it to me and I remember you said

0:44:18this on the ATP this weekend there's like I have to the handle yeah exactly

0:44:22it's very nicely weighted in a way that the disposables from joy and stuff and

0:44:28even the one that they don't call disposables they pretty much are they

0:44:31like I feel that the Gillette one like it just needs 17 blue LEDs to complete

0:44:37the aesthetic just it looks like a Transformers movie it's just it it was a

0:44:43very first droid ads and where they really liked a key masculine robot crazy

0:44:49did they actually had like to have like laser beams and weapons you always feel

0:44:55like a laser coming I there's a trend and I love it

0:45:00where I've been getting more sponsors like Harry's where they're not

0:45:04technology at all this isn't an app it's it's a real physical product and I think

0:45:11it's a great market because I feel like my show my website

0:45:16you know yours Marcos in an ATP it's it's not about tech really because

0:45:23there's mass-market tech sites that I think of a wildly different audience I

0:45:27think the audience that I have the you have this audience is more like people

0:45:34who care about nice things including tax or maybe even a special attack but what

0:45:38they really are interested in is nice things i'd rather have one nice thing

0:45:43than 10 mediocre things and Harry's to me fit exactly in line but here's the

0:45:48thing where she going to typical drugs 30 choices that qualify for that go

0:45:53online and get it there

0:45:55go to here's what you do go to Harry's dot com 8 Arry s dot com use this promo

0:46:01code talk show and put the done there but that's not that's not hold it

0:46:05against him just talk show TLK shw and you will get five bucks off your first

0:46:14purchase I don't I can't see why anybody would do this

0:46:19try it out and then not just sign up and use this stuff henceforth because it's

0:46:24cheaper and better how do you beat that even the size is nice

0:46:29boxes all the packaging is really what I think that when I first wanted to show

0:46:38they sent me a handle and three blades have since reordered out of my own

0:46:42pocket you know the the replacement blade anyone throw the empty box out

0:46:47from the first head of Leeds boxes but I have to but it's still badly they're

0:46:55really you know twenty years from now you you know the crazy person with forty

0:47:02years or twenty years of shaving cartridge box figure out what you put in

0:47:07here everything looks like a small and a trapezoid let me I can put my screws in

0:47:13here right to me that's as good a side that's when I knew that it was the real

0:47:17deal I knew as soon as I opened up the boxes I these guys got it going

0:47:21on the other great thing I just had to one other thing and I actually thought

0:47:25about this when you and I listened ATP this weekend and you know you did you

0:47:29read for Harry's chipper blades to me one of the big differences in my life as

0:47:36I remember when when I was in college I first came in had to start shaving

0:47:40didn't have money and I shaving blade forever for too long

0:47:46what difference it made when I started a walk up and it's like you know what you

0:47:50don't use them that long if you pay less for them you'll you'll use them less and

0:47:56use of pressure one more often you don't have to actually a nice trick I read

0:48:01back I was shaving heard there was like this one person kinda stuck with me from

0:48:05a guy who was like you can basically share however you want with every blade

0:48:09you can find as long as you use a new blade every single time and if you do

0:48:14played every single time you will like if you have sensitive skin which I do

0:48:19like all those problems go away and I've never been that extreme because they're

0:48:24expensive usually especially in my years at Gillette owner manual 375 played

0:48:29usually it's it's expensive it seems wasteful through the way every time when

0:48:35when the cost goes so dramatically down a bit of Harry is it becomes more

0:48:39plausible and more practical to only keep the blade for like three or four

0:48:44shades and it's a nice difference with everybody have tried you know to to not

0:48:50try to extract a month's worth of use out of a blade and if they're cheaper

0:48:55you can do that I actually shave more often now that I can say that there

0:49:01might even just say that the sponsor readers over I'm just saying that and

0:49:06they are they're cream like I i've tried a lot of shaving cream i've been this

0:49:10cheap energy and and the one I found was the best for me was the program so green

0:49:18variant I would and I've tried many others trendy ones like the taylor of

0:49:24Old Bond Street like all the fancy boutique ones I would say that Harry's

0:49:28cream for me was number two and really I've tried a lot

0:49:33did it didn't quite tough for me but it was really close and that's saying a lot

0:49:37it's nice and simple gets the job done nothing fancy it's not made a blue

0:49:43blazer yes he looks very tasteful and modern looks like wood shavings and the

0:49:49funny thing is to say since I visit their site recently now I'm seeing their

0:49:53ads and all the Google AdSense boxes all over the internet as i browse and their

0:49:57address so much more tasteful looking at the graphical banner version cause

0:50:02Google Google said over the banners of course that's out the window now and so

0:50:08now I'm seeing nice like trendy beautifully designed to Harry's ads all

0:50:13the websites they sit there and then I said so there you go you'll improve your

0:50:17ad viewing experience as well but anyway great product

0:50:24glad to have him on board and and you're not to be on trial I'm not doing you any

0:50:28favors trying to keep the show short well that's good cause I feel terrible I

0:50:32feel like I've taken a very busy man with a brand new app and have taken up

0:50:36eight hours of your Thursday night I believe in revenue in this than

0:50:41answering what is now

0:50:431139 emails I believe it's about 45 more than three star who could we can measure

0:50:49the length of the episode in how many to the overcast support mailbox yet it's

0:50:55just about midnight eastern time like I mean obviously these people aren't all

0:50:59in USA eastern time but like just let me get this straight you so you just use

0:51:06email for support its just because it's just you right I i have in the league

0:51:12with Instapaper I hired somebody to help me with support you did that did you

0:51:16still use email or did you switch to some sort of online system for a while I

0:51:25would just give him an email address and given hosting and it just went to his

0:51:29inbox just one guy and so that was that was fine and after a while he said about

0:51:35to try some of some of these tools are out recently

0:51:37see if there are you ok sure so he tried to send you think was going with a

0:51:44couple of them

0:51:45I have I just a few of these tools before and I i hear all of them like

0:51:51everyone I've ever try to hit the one from the other guy who co-founded Stack

0:51:57Overflow Joel and I i use that actually that was what time were used for a long

0:52:02time and I i hated it in different ways at least what's nice about that one is

0:52:08it's free if you have a small team which is really nice I was six years ago I

0:52:12think it's probably is all of these products try to do too much in in

0:52:19different ways there there are very few that are focused only on JustAnswer

0:52:24support emails and tweets that's all you really need even if you leave out the

0:52:28tweets even if some else even if you do e-mail it that's great

0:52:31the problem is very hard for any of those things to actually be better than

0:52:35email you know it email it is is a fairly old mature and very versatile

0:52:41tool you can do a lot with with just you may lend you a lot of things like all

0:52:45the like i still email things to myself from my phone because it's easier than

0:52:50XY or Z or it works better or more robust or I can do the things I need to

0:52:55do with it

0:52:56email for all the problems of which there are many all these problems it is

0:53:03a really good generalist and so I so anyway so for now I'm just using email I

0:53:12in the future and emerging tech Texas pander to help a lot with some of the

0:53:15snippets like some of the comments does seem this is a known bug thank you you

0:53:18know stuff like that

0:53:19my email signature it helps to have all that stuff be the helpful in helping

0:53:26automated but I've never say I've never found one of these tools that if you're

0:53:31just one person obviously email has problems

0:53:34skill to multiple people trying to address the same support in box then

0:53:38then then I I definitely just using something else it also is kind of

0:53:42inconvenient if you hear from the same people a lot like the defense systems

0:53:48don't they'll be able to bring up this person emailed you before the show their

0:53:51previous emails along with a sort of CRM type then yeah

0:53:55so you know if you have certain certain needs then you need something else but

0:54:00for just one person answering their own support in Van requests for an app that

0:54:06you like I'm probably not like once all settles down i would i would estimate

0:54:10I'll probably get fewer than 20 emails a day for it hopefully much fewer than

0:54:162,500 I that's obviously a total blind guess I have no idea but I assume that's

0:54:26going to be the level I'm talking about and so for that it's like he's the

0:54:30complexity of the system only worth it because these systems have you know they

0:54:33have these web interfaces that are slow and clunky I don't know I I'm a big fan

0:54:39of native apps I like I like a lot about a devout and so just be able to do this

0:54:44already very fast at using his mail app not not anything fancy I've been using

0:54:52my lap for years I know it extremely well I'm very fast and works everywhere

0:54:56I don't have to like get us a different app for each device because you have

0:55:00mail on my devices and so it's it's it's just easier in so many ways if you're

0:55:07just one person answering one inbox for when I was a bare bones and this is

0:55:11twelve thirteen years ago you know early nearly 2000 2002 2001 2002 and a lot of

0:55:20my job was did you know how pitching in and support you we did it all at the

0:55:25time we did it all by IM app even those multiple murder but it worked for a few

0:55:31reasons which was a the only people who had access to it we're we're all trusted

0:55:35there wasn't anybody who was doing support email wasn't like a truly

0:55:41trusted employee and be it was really simple system where nobody you didn't

0:55:49answer anything from the Inbox

0:55:50everybody we just made topple folders for each of us you know John Rich

0:55:57was was doing stuff Patrick and you would you know if your gonna do support

0:56:04for the next hour

0:56:05you would just dig n go through the Mbox and drag any messages that you were

0:56:09gonna take to your inbox wasn't even an inbox me your box so your folder should

0:56:16almost always be empty except for maybe like one or two flag things that you

0:56:21were you know hey I need to I gotta go to I gotta go talk to rich about this

0:56:25and get in the United can't answer that right I'm back now and say he'll get

0:56:29back to you later but I actually don't know the answer to that you know I'll

0:56:33keep it but did you know by the end of the day

0:56:35yours should be empty and then end then nobody would be double answering the

0:56:39same email from the impacts or something like that and that kind of system when

0:56:44you're in an environment where like it you know everyone's trusted and

0:56:47everyone's like you know able to do they're able to treat it properly then

0:56:53and then everyone can use their own app and there's no like weird additional you

0:56:58know third party thing to an agreed and pay for and support and move with and

0:57:03then my god awful when they go out of business and it's just it's

0:57:07email its problems it's really good a lot of things and and more importantly

0:57:13it's good enough at a lot of things yet and I also like to you kind of know what

0:57:19the customers guys see from you and you don't know exactly how they're they're

0:57:22fun set up in their mail client ever but if you just write him an email you know

0:57:25it's gonna look like you know all the other e-mail not gonna be some weird you

0:57:31know HTML formatted thing and it's not gonna have a whole bunch of auto

0:57:37generated administrative stuff you know that

0:57:40to reply to this message please include this textin subject line is that correct

0:57:46and you know make sure you write your entire reply above this line

0:57:52customer hostile experiences yeah they are you know they're writing to you

0:57:57there your customer in your given him all these rules to follow about not

0:58:00changing the subject and make sure it makes for god sake make sure everything

0:58:05you write as above this line and stuff like that you know just an email just

0:58:10text you go here's your answer I guess we should cover the news but I do my

0:58:18last bunch of good friends at cover you guys know how ru summer they are the

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0:58:41it's hard to find a good domain name because so many of them are taken cover

0:58:45has some great tools for helping you find domain name that's available and

0:58:50that's gonna work with the name you have in mind whether it's trying other

0:58:54top-level domains or whether it's combining other things before the top of

0:58:58a demand to get something that you like they're gonna give you exactly what you

0:59:03need to get the job done and you can trust them one that I gotta tell you to

0:59:08maintain registers or so scam me in general that I have never trusted before

0:59:13I started using never trusted using their told to see if a name is available

0:59:17because I always suspected that half of them with just if I say hey is you know

0:59:23you know you know Marcos new car dot com available that they're going to register

0:59:29and then hold it hostage to me because they was available but they know I want

0:59:33it so they took it it's it's a it's a business that's full of opportunities

0:59:39for squeezing us I don't know if any domain registrars ever done something

0:59:42that scare me but the fact that occurred to me you know with however you can

0:59:48trust these guys they've been in business for ever I mean I think like

0:59:52all the way back to the nineties great reputation just search the web for what

0:59:57people who use however say about them

0:59:59great tools great service

1:00:03customer service including what they called the white glove service the

1:00:11valley Valley transfers right they deserve what you do you sign up from

1:00:16their customer and you have a domain name probably had a shitty registrar

1:00:20really you know that's not going to name names but you know it probably is it's

1:00:28really hard too tricky to transfer domains especially because most of us

1:00:32are indigenous experts we can't really remember the exact step-by-step thing of

1:00:37what you do and DNS is that thing that you can screw up you can screw it up and

1:00:43it's a pain in the ass to fix it when you're screwed it up

1:00:45use terrorism Valley transfer service and they'll walk you through the steps

1:00:51will help you

1:00:53transferred daily been transferred for you and you move it from your crappy

1:00:58registrar to hover and that's free they just take care of that process for you

1:01:03just buy you pain to become their customer just included in the price of

1:01:08being great support they have other things they have volume discounts that a

1:01:14new thing that they're offering to give you a discount on domain renewals

1:01:18starting at just 10 domains so if you glad you're like me and like an idiot

1:01:24every time you a good idea for a domain

1:01:27even started like one website that you've stuck with your life and you just

1:01:30keep registering them but God forbid you let anybody else take over them they'll

1:01:36help you out with this discount on when or if you've got ten or more so what do

1:01:42you do to check them out

1:01:43easy easy go to

1:01:49dot com H O R there's a promo code used this promo code and here's what you get

1:01:59there's a sale will get 10% off your first purchase by typing a promo code

1:02:04this week's promo code is IBM i be just type that in

1:02:11don't know you came from the show will get 10% off your first purchase and all

1:02:16new domain extensions are on sale through September 1st at all these crazy

1:02:20new top-level domains here's some of the ones they've got there they got dat club

1:02:25. ninja . guru don't interpret that Guru . company they don't have any of the new

1:02:34TLD they were well I don't know . ninja might be cool if you're using it

1:02:40ironically patient days are a dot parking lot they have a dark parking lot

1:02:45for fans not yet but I'm sure the subcommittee the trend right now head

1:02:51over 200 . com see the full list of all these crazy new top-level domains

1:02:55there's hundreds of new options

1:02:57a great names are still available and are on sale through September 1st and

1:03:01use that code IBM and Dell know you came from here from my show where where we

1:03:09talk about IBM every week like obviously that code is not used by anybody else

1:03:16that's how irrelevant IBM as to the consumer web these days like that out

1:03:23there is no incentives that could I wonder why I think that's part of what

1:03:29had me so head-scratching about the whole iBM Apple news this week which I

1:03:33guess is really the only news everything else going to talk about but not really

1:03:37is why why why is it even Apple presenting this is such a big deal right

1:03:45because Apple put out of big press release and they made Tim Cook

1:03:49available for a bunch of interviews you know which to me is the bigger sign that

1:03:55Apple thinks it's a big deal if Tim Cook is going to spend the day talking to

1:03:58CNBC and the Wall Street Journal and a bunch of other things a day of Tim

1:04:03Cook's time means it's important and I that's you know my thought in this is

1:04:09just one of those things where it's like it didn't instantly make any sense that

1:04:12didn't make sense but it didn't make sense to me why it was a big deal I

1:04:17think I mean I I don't know anything about the world of enterprise computing

1:04:22and thank God for that because a little bit of texture and they're headed I'm

1:04:26very badly suited to it like I'm not saying it sucks I'm saying sucks for me

1:04:33it probably does suck but anyway I think there's there's probably a lot of value

1:04:42in Apple making a big deal out of this in all the ways the consumers will never

1:04:47hear about or care about but that businesses will because the whole point

1:04:51of this is to try to try to push the iPhone and iOS platform more into

1:04:57business and make it make it kind of fight fight the notion that that has

1:05:03played for a while which is this is like only for consumers or its its inferior

1:05:07for business purposes to things like blackberry you know they they're trying

1:05:12to fight that that perception and perception has been declining for a

1:05:16while as iOS devices have been pushing to business anyway because people wanted

1:05:20them so badly and think they kind of are forced to adopt him in the end an iOS

1:05:25got better with some of its enterprise stuff but ultimately the perception is

1:05:29still there are a lot of

1:05:30I T managers at the iOS Apple stuff is not is not for business you know it's

1:05:35not it's not ready for the enterprise or but you know what I think that's true

1:05:40I've said this before i of its kurung thing I come back to every couple months

1:05:45because something else will pop up its human beings are psychologically set up

1:05:52to make first impressions difficult to break you know it's a cliche to say

1:05:58first impressions

1:06:00and there you know when you have a job interview should do you know get all

1:06:05stressed out and do all these things right and dress exactly right and answer

1:06:09all the questions right now have a good and taking all these things but you know

1:06:12what it's one of those cliches that kinda true and I'm not saying it's fair

1:06:15or tried but it matters and so people's and it matters not just for your

1:06:21impressions of people but your impressions of everything and if your

1:06:25first impression of Apple is that they're not for business and it was

1:06:29reinforced for a while

1:06:31doesn't matter if it was set back in 1996 when it was almost literally a

1:06:38completely different Apple it it still stands for some people today

1:06:44yeah definitely and a lot of the cprit managers of big companies yeah I think

1:06:49so true I think so I think that's exactly true and Tim Cook going around

1:06:54doing all these like BS interviews with business people about business things I

1:06:58think it's all about attacking that it's all about like getting out there and you

1:07:03know a press release with what consumers gonna give crafted a press release to

1:07:07hear about it you know my pizza guy who asked about the time I get a pizza he

1:07:12reads like all the worst Apple rumor sites so he always ask me about all the

1:07:15ridiculous like the most ridiculous possible things that are so ridiculous

1:07:19you won't even comment on them I get everything so it was pretty often I I

1:07:24get asked about those things and you know he's never gonna hear about this

1:07:28ever because it is so important to even consumers who are interested in Apple

1:07:34never gonna greater but the business community this will be like there's

1:07:40gonna be a white paper somewhere there's going to be like things the business

1:07:43community needs like sources a year references oh well this is apparently

1:07:47going into business this is this is something that I T managers can show

1:07:50each other and the CAF and the CTO and the CEO above them like they can show

1:07:56each other and everyone here we should maybe consider those here some

1:07:59supporting documents to support this you know it it's all about placating the

1:08:04needs of the business world in using their language and and their methods of

1:08:09of communicating tax even even at the enterprise level it moves fast but tech

1:08:17moving fast at the enterprise level is a helluva lot slower than moves at the

1:08:22consumer level yeah I'm pretty sure my bank 2012 right exists a perfect example

1:08:28like how many ATMs are crazy Windows systems Windows 98 base and I know that

1:08:46the target the target hack was based on crazy old version of Windows that

1:08:52they've still been rolling out and brand new Target stores you know decades later

1:08:56but it does it compare to the world at large

1:09:00still moves fast but it's it's easy to miss that caused it so much slower than

1:09:05the daily garage of tech news that it's easy to miss the trends until they're

1:09:13already in the rearview mirror and I i kind of feel like what what Apple IBM

1:09:17deal is showing is it sort of stage to the beginning of stage two of Apple's

1:09:23renaissance in the business market staged one was just getting iPhones and

1:09:29iPads in at all and it said literally what they've bragged about for the last

1:09:32few years the percentage of Fortune 500 companies where iOS devices or use and

1:09:39it's you know it's now it's up to like a ridiculous numbers like 98% but it's

1:09:43always been a conspicuous that they don't say how many are being used in

1:09:46each one right times like they aren't officially supported like a lot of times

1:09:51you know the devices have gotten into these companies reluctantly because

1:09:55somebody in a position of power got an iPhone or iPad him aren't used to work

1:09:59as the department but certainly want to supporters of the car is fine you're the

1:10:04CEO got an iPhone wants to use it we have to do this so we will support it

1:10:08and a half at minimal way but we're not going to let everyone do this I don't

1:10:11think that's without counting I think when apple says ninety percent of the

1:10:14Fortune 500 is using a knife is using the iPhone I think that they they are

1:10:19there I think Apple's honest enough today means that they on it they have

1:10:23some kind of corporate relationship and apples enterprise you know sales people

1:10:28that that they can legitimately say that probably companies that big but I don't

1:10:34think it necessarily translates to a high unit count or head count right i

1:10:38mean just to pick one example of a company I know is must be in the Fortune

1:10:42500 because they are the second biggest company will relax on you know so let's

1:10:47say it's doing acts on his part of that ninety percent doesn't mean there's a

1:10:50thousand people with iPhones on that big a deal because as you know tens and tens

1:10:56of thousands of boys I think that that stage one is just getting any

1:11:03relationship at all maybe it's just the sea level people maybe it's just like a

1:11:07the CEO one an iPhone so officially you know anybody who works in the CEO's

1:11:12office can use an iPhone but like the rank and file of tens of thousands of

1:11:17people you know still you using whatever you know blackberries or something like

1:11:22that I think stage two is about getting that number bigger and Tim Cook kind of

1:11:30alluded to that one of his interviews that is that there's a huge that yes

1:11:34we've got this huge number of Fortune 500 companies doing it but that there's

1:11:38tons of devices and various you know whether the phones PCs or whatever that

1:11:44could be replaced with iOS devices and there's huge upside their numbers and I

1:11:53think that's what this is about

1:11:55yeah maybe I mean to some degree having like using iOS devices as my custom work

1:12:04terminals are like you like my UPS guy hands me some kind of crazy ass thing to

1:12:10sign digitally when I get a package delivered

1:12:12yeah and you know the idea of that someday being an iPhone and iPad I

1:12:18actually have a hard time buying that because the characteristics that that

1:12:23business is expected to do something like that they're going to expect

1:12:26platform this highly customizable to examine their needs and stable and will

1:12:30be easily bend over backwards to support them indefinitely

1:12:33none of those things are Apple strong points or even Apple wanting to do those

1:12:38things like Apple is perfectly happy to like drop support for all things

1:12:42lockdown control all sorts of all sorts of that let them produce good devices as

1:12:51long as you fit within their needs but also tend to shut out corporate needs

1:12:55like that yeah well I think that's though it potentially plays to Apple's

1:13:00traditional strengths though where Apple is never been about selling all of

1:13:04anything you know that they don't need you know that's where Microsoft is

1:13:10always about microsoft wanted every single computing device in the entire

1:13:13building to be running some version of Windows whereas Apple I don't think is

1:13:18going to shoot for that I don't know if Apple would say the UPS you still want

1:13:21to have all I mean how many ups ups guys the delivery guys I don't know probably

1:13:27thirty forty thousand an idea though it's one of those terrible job interview

1:13:33questions I i was gonna guess 25,000 so I know that's just a guess but you know

1:13:38that's a 25,000 I'm so let's say they have I don't know thirty thousand of

1:13:43those finer things because they want to have more of them than they have people

1:13:47and they say you know what we don't really want to use iOS devices for XYZ

1:13:53reasons I think applet ok that sounds good you know but if you know what about

1:13:57if every every manager at the depot centers where their dispatch was using

1:14:03an iPhone and using an iPhone app custom iPhone app to manage whatever he does he

1:14:07does all day I think you know if that's all they got there would be great

1:14:12because it all upside for them because they never sold anything to those

1:14:16companies could point you know that the only two places where you can see the

1:14:21need for a $500 iPad you know but if it's possible that a $500 iPad would

1:14:27make sense for you and it totally makes sense that maybe for a UPS delivery guy

1:14:31who's got a really physical job that have $500 device with a glass screen or

1:14:38even you know safire's green it doesn't make any sense you know it's durable

1:14:43enough and it's too expensive to replace one is broken but there are still all

1:14:47sorts of opportunities where an iOS device might make sense and never you

1:14:52know it's all upside for Apple because they never had anything no foothold in

1:14:56that market

1:14:57yeah I asked today I don't we saw you real busy today but I asked today while

1:15:07my Christmas question is yeah weird were Tim Cook said he uses an iPad for eighty

1:15:12percent of his work and ice which i think is you know I think it's

1:15:15interesting and I kind of believe him I i guess i dont know that I'm sure he

1:15:19didn't scientifically measured have somebody fall around with a stopwatch

1:15:22measuring how much the biggest red flag that sounds suspicious to me is text

1:15:28input like does he use a keyboard I doubt it I mean that would look very

1:15:32good you know how does he manage to text input as he just a lot of very short

1:15:37responses to I would imagine the CEO I would imagine a big part of his job

1:15:42email I that's a good question I would think so too but maybe it needs to know

1:15:48sent short email Steve Jobs century amounts you know I think Steve Jobs is

1:15:53like his latter years an awful lot of the member when those emails does those

1:15:56MacRumors some random guy on the internet got an answer from Steve Jobs

1:16:00an awful lot of those in the last few years were had sent sent from my iPhone

1:16:06yeah I'd say most of them actually did ya so steve Jobs was sending a lot of

1:16:11email from his iPhone I don't know that it's it's ridiculous that Tim Cook is to

1:16:14their I always thought as an aside I always thought it was very noble that

1:16:20Steve Jobs kept that the fall sick and his email which is terrible I but it

1:16:28kind of makes sense that it would it would be Steve Jobs signature you know

1:16:31that I could see that like that it's a very fair that's honestly very fair like

1:16:35like like when you buy a new Samsung Galaxy S and

1:16:39fault signals sent from my samsung trademark Galaxy mark 6 trademark on

1:16:48AT&T LTE 4G internet from the now network trademark do you really think

1:16:57that AT&T CEO is is using that signature on his phone I hope so but I really

1:17:05doubt I think it should be a rule that if if you if you are the kind of if

1:17:08you're the kind of position where you can dictate a default will be used by

1:17:11thousands of people you should have to use your so I absolutely believe

1:17:15whatever the default is that you said you should have to write I i you know i

1:17:20believe in personal freedom and liberty but I would support making that a law

1:17:23and there's an easy way did you can you can set your email signature don't ever

1:17:29you want by the shipping at fault email signature that the blank exactly and ask

1:17:34them you know what it what you want to put at the bottom of your emails anyway

1:17:38I always thought that was great about jobs so I believe it about Tim Cook and

1:17:41I think it's great that he uses the iPad but my question and it was prompted by

1:17:46the great contra on Twitter take a counter notions one of the great

1:17:56anonymous or pseudonymous I guess what are their personalities does IBM CEO

1:18:06Ginni Rometty use an iPhone and I'm totally serious when I say that I think

1:18:11that's an interesting and telling you no question do you agree that I i think

1:18:17that would be interesting to know the answer to if you could actually trust

1:18:21the answer like it you know if they just gave in a press statement oh yes that's

1:18:27probably BS who knows but if if you actually get the word head of

1:18:30trustworthy information that says oh yeah yeah they've been using an iPhone

1:18:34four for months or years whatever that's interesting to know but it's i think

1:18:41it's a little bit less interesting because IBM doesn't make phones do this

1:18:46right so it but right

1:18:50but I don't know why I think you're right though like that that could show a

1:18:54level of caring that like you know if the CEO doesn't even use an iPhone how

1:19:00committed is that you know how how much does this new partnership really matter

1:19:05like what is really like to actually go anywhere and if the CEOs care deeply

1:19:09enough to even try it themselves right in their own enterprise cuz you know IBM

1:19:16itself is is like it's like a fractal like where their their business is you

1:19:21know consulting and services for the enterprise but they themselves are like

1:19:26the canonical enterprise right if they're not good enough for their own

1:19:30enterprise knees than you know themselves are a massive company with

1:19:34very large needs and the conservative you know technically conservative not

1:19:41politically conservative you know but that that they still used Lotus Notes

1:19:45and stuff like that

1:19:47well and they still use it and and and i think that I think their conservatism

1:19:54technically I mean partly that's what they sell that that is their product is

1:19:59also their culture and that's that's why I think this is interesting at all you

1:20:03know if if Apple had a partnership with somebody smaller somebody more dynamic

1:20:06it would be less interesting the fact that partnering with IBM is more

1:20:11interesting because it is so opposite of what you would expect but their money

1:20:20explain it and they say oh well we know we have no overlap but this makes sense

1:20:23then it's like ok I can get that ok that makes sense yeah I don't know I just

1:20:27think it would be telling her I said I don't think it if it turns out she

1:20:30doesn't she uses something else you know my question though is at this point in

1:20:37time maybe that's telling about the state of the mobile world how crazy is

1:20:43it away it seems crazy to think that the I president and CEO of IBM uses an Apple

1:20:48iPhone

1:20:49as a phone bill but all should she use yeah why should she is blackberry 10

1:20:56blackberry is you know clearly on the way out and just can't do things that

1:21:01people expect to do on a mobile platform right now I would say two years ago

1:21:04blackberry would have still been a plausible guessed right and like two

1:21:08years ago there were still a lot of like you know quote business people who are

1:21:11still claim that their Blackberries I have to imagine today it's getting much

1:21:16more rare to see a berry actually in use by somebody who liked by someone who

1:21:21just bought a new fuck yeah I got a new phone yesterday at the new BlackBerry

1:21:24recap how often do you ever see that even even now in the business community

1:21:28I have to imagine that's extremely rare

1:21:31i've i've never seen somebody using the touchscreen blackberries and I you know

1:21:37I don't fly frequently by five frequently enough and I did not be a

1:21:41place where I was spotted and I never seen it I still see people with the the

1:21:45bunny ones but fewer and fewer there but I quickly

1:21:49well it's so it's possible she is a blackberry I would guess it's probable

1:21:55she at least used to use a blackberry so maybe she still am but you know we

1:21:59wouldn't be a distressing sign that the CEO of IBM is still holding onto a

1:22:03blackberry which is clearly dying platform what else Andrew and I don't

1:22:09think so why would it make sense why would it make any more sense for the

1:22:12president of IBM to be using Android phone then I mean if anything I think it

1:22:19made the most sense for the president to use one of those like stahlman phones at

1:22:22Sasol Linux and crazy stuff I did exist people to meet those people trying to

1:22:28make him but I don't think that they would work in the enterprising all I

1:22:31mean I think there's a security angle there but I don't think there's an

1:22:33integration with all the software that they have to integrate with its gonna

1:22:39get certified network even know probably not but probably incompatible with being

1:22:45open source I but they can't do it I don't know about that I don't think so

1:22:50I've never heard of any company that that using those it seems to me like the

1:22:54people who that appeals to our security experts

1:22:57you know that's a very small knit yeah it's a great argument but it's not I

1:23:02don't think it's something that IBM would use standardized on you know and

1:23:07there's a bunch of people on Twitter who answered my question and said that they

1:23:11don't know but that there are people in IBM using iPhones in that there's a lot

1:23:14of people who work at IBM use iPads on a regular basis that there is a lot of dog

1:23:20shooting in that regard within IBM yeah it makes sense

1:23:24IBM what most people think of them as is not what to do anymore you know most

1:23:30people think of of their days as the computer manufacturer right and that is

1:23:36not their business anymore they have got rid of I believe that entire business

1:23:39don't have any parts of it left no they are a services they their enterprise

1:23:44services company and then my two servers but I haven't seen IBM server for a long

1:23:50time and if they do I think I think it counts more as consultant then server

1:23:56sales you know I think that then I think when you buy if it's if they have a

1:24:00better cost way more for the service contract and everything than the actual

1:24:03hardware yeah I don't think you can just go buy one IBM server from Amazon I

1:24:07think you'd like to be involved anyway so you know they have all these like

1:24:11services you know they they will contract to your business to build your

1:24:16CRM system for you stuff like that that's or you can use a big list was

1:24:22installation yeah I mean and I don't know most of what they do because i dont

1:24:25industry but that's that's a high-level version of it basically and and it's

1:24:31like if that's your business then yeah it helps it helps to some degree to

1:24:36primarily sell your stuff when you have something in a certain market you know

1:24:41you know if they have their own their own document management server then it

1:24:45makes sense for them to sell that as much as they can as part of these deals

1:24:49but if the business road is demanding integration with iOS devices and if they

1:24:56don't sell iOS devices something like I was devices it totally makes sense for

1:25:01them to address the demand and not be religious about it not be like oh we

1:25:06can't deal with them because you know their Apple in

1:25:09we used to be enemies you know they the fact is they're not enemies now and I

1:25:16remember an extremely different missions now than where they both were

1:25:19respectively in the early eighties and and IBM is no longer like they don't

1:25:25they they have no reason to care whose phones they're selling anymore and in

1:25:30fact well I don't think they should karen that it's any one particular one

1:25:34that I can see why it would appeal to them to sell Apple because Apple you

1:25:37know is is single source they would make it easier for them then they did were

1:25:43doing the same thing with Android and if there's demand in these companies in the

1:25:47same way that so many people you know brought in iPhones because they wanted

1:25:51to and they made the company support them afterwards if if there are

1:25:55compelling reasons for companies whether its employees who want to use iPads

1:25:59employees who already are using them anyway and wanted to work better and be

1:26:02more of the company's networks and stuff or just you know things like deploying

1:26:07custom iOS devices as part of the UPS guy tools or whatever if if the business

1:26:14and are demanding that stuff it is in IBM's best interest to work with Apple

1:26:18to to offer that to integrate that into the contract and services they're

1:26:22providing otherwise because that's what our customers are demanding yeah maybe

1:26:26you know part of the fallout of this is is it really even about Apple at all but

1:26:32really about the way that IBM is not the IBM we've always thought of and I knew

1:26:36that but this is just sort of crystallizing it i mean the only people

1:26:40who should be upset about this or Microsoft

1:26:42this is their business before this is exactly like this is the business that

1:26:47that I've argued for a while that Microsoft should be getting into more

1:26:50heavily there you have a very strong enterprise division and and certainly i

1:26:55i assume I I don't know this for sure I'm sure Microsoft is is probably IBM's

1:27:02biggest competitor for any pressure versus that might not be sure certainly

1:27:05they're up there and enterprise services are great business for that kind of

1:27:09thing because it's a big profitable relatively stable industry being

1:27:12compared to consumer tech which is very hard and fickle and low margin usually

1:27:17so right so you know Microsoft should this is what Microsoft should be doing

1:27:23but they're not for various reasons and I think more than more than anything

1:27:30it's a sign of the times not that apple and IBM are working together but that

1:27:35there's a major enterprise partnership that does not involve Microsoft it all

1:27:39well and in not just the partnership but that that the landscape is changing in a

1:27:47way that such a partnership could exist without Microsoft exact cause even if

1:27:52Microsoft were involved at the enterprise sales level it still up until

1:27:57very recently still would have implicitly men everybody who was getting

1:28:03one of the devices was getting a Windows PC and the customs office license the

1:28:09custom app that was being written would be a Windows app exact work and the very

1:28:15least would be an app that runs on Windows cause may be a small part of the

1:28:20trend over the last decade has been web apps you know even in the enterprise but

1:28:24of course you know Windows is cut off from that their own lunches women's

1:28:27usually run in IE businesses right but when you're talking about iOS apps now

1:28:32you're talking about something where Microsoft is just completely out of the

1:28:36out of the loop relevant to to the solutions that any any any product or

1:28:43solution that Apple IBM will work on together will almost certainly not

1:28:48involve anything from Microsoft at all it will almost certainly only serve to

1:28:51make Microsoft stuff irrelevant and a nun and unnecessary yeah I like I said

1:28:56before this I think this is all upside for Apple and every additional every

1:29:00time this works and IBM makes one of these deals that gets iPads and iPhones

1:29:04into an enterprise it's all upside trouble its iPhones and iPads they will

1:29:09they will sell now that they wouldn't have sold before maybe it'll be a huge

1:29:13increase maybe it'll be like you know five percent increase in iPad and iPhone

1:29:18sales six seven eight percent I don't know maybe it'll be small maybe one

1:29:22percent but everyone that sold his upside but at the same time it's almost

1:29:26probable that everyone

1:29:28is a loss for Microsoft these are all tasks that Microsoft stuff was was

1:29:35mostly was almost all use 44 alright maybe with the phones it's not because

1:29:39Microsoft never really had a big phone but people are now using their phones

1:29:44for things they previously used to have to use the laptop for and certainly

1:29:47anything that you use an iPad for in these situations is something that would

1:29:51have otherwise been a Windows PC yeah I definitely and I think that's that's

1:29:56really really a big deal yet

1:29:56really really a big deal yet

1:30:00this is this apartment those things where you know in a year where we're

1:30:04going we will have forgotten about it but unlike in five years we might look

1:30:07back on this and say oh that that was the start of a big shift yeah and I

1:30:12think we all probably see it like me and you don't enter the enterprise at all

1:30:20yeah I don't think so we wanted to we couldn't get it right and we would

1:30:25encounter it in as slides and at em cookie know instead of instead of

1:30:30talking about what percentage of Fortune 500 are using iOS devices its gonna

1:30:37switch to something like percentage of mobile devices and fortune 500 company

1:30:41right because that's something they've never talked about but if that becomes a

1:30:47sizable number that could be HUGE right even if Apple just gets twenty percent

1:30:5220% of all mobile devices and fortune 500 companies that's enormous cuz it's

1:30:57also almost certainly the most expensive twenty percent of the mobile devices in

1:31:02a fortune 500 company almost certainly you know and that's how Apple that's

1:31:06exactly how Apple's come to dominate the revenue and profits in the consumer and

1:31:10in the consumer side of the market is just by taking the 20% where the most

1:31:14money as it seems to work well so far I wanted to keep this short so it's it's

1:31:22wrapping up now if you want to talk about anything else in mind this week

1:31:25now I'm just trying to get through now

1:31:271147 emails so what was the counter the apps I think about sixties

1:31:36thing is for the listeners that because of the way the both of us talk I would

1:31:43expect it to be about 45 minutes shorter and overcast I think we're going to

1:31:49split into but they'll still still save them both you'll still save the 45

1:31:53minutes as you get through both episodes you can really boost the the smart speed

1:31:57total stats we're gonna go to find out more

1:32:04the website is overcast . alright the Twitter account is overcast FM and of

1:32:16course you are at Marco dot org

1:32:20Marco Arment on on Twitter you can save save five characters and you're just

1:32:27Marco on there was no they were using for Twitter app that net is that still

1:32:35up I really want to work but I think it was hopeless from the start honestly I

1:32:41think it had it had a good run like it had a longer run than expected for it

1:32:44but you guys had a great dissection post-mortem and sadly I think

1:32:50post-mortem is the right word about it and that sort of you know and you can

1:32:58apply you can circle back to what we were talking about with free apps and

1:33:01paid apps that but there's something about a social network for pay first was

1:33:05just never gonna work and you never gets also it's very hard for a social network

1:33:10to have something else created that is extremely similar to one its already

1:33:16successful Avenue and take off like it has to be after net was not different

1:33:21enough from Twitter and I know that they thought they were but the but the

1:33:25product most people saw wasn't yeah you know that's a that's a common problem

1:33:30when you're on the inside of a product or service is that you're so intimately

1:33:33familiar with it that you can send in your bones that you're different enough

1:33:39to matter but it if ever had but yeah and you you're right I bet they're right

1:33:44I think that there are a hundred percent right that they were different

1:33:46matter but sadly it wasn't different enough in a way that was obvious from

1:33:52the outside and so does everybody else it didn't exactly a very common problem

1:33:58keeps yelling to yourself and your head no look it's like YouTube for dog videos

1:34:03it's totally different

1:34:05the newsroom and videos on YouTube it's it's it's exactly the same problem

1:34:11well and part of it like you can build weird other apps that were built on the

1:34:16app net and infrastructure that you could never build on Twitter correct

1:34:20yeah but that was all stuff that was not only added later but also stuff that was

1:34:25just it just never got a foothold it wasn't really addressing pressing needs

1:34:29a lot of people had and the whole model of like having to pay for an account for

1:34:33so long before that the free thing never give people a reason to sign up for it

1:34:37and never gave the people who did sign up a reason to keep using it and it

1:34:41never give developers enough of a reason to require it to build the school

1:34:47promised apps on it like this

1:34:49the cost of requiring it was so high because you have all your customers who

1:34:53had then get up on their accounts like it was a big burden to place on on those

1:34:58acts so that very few out of it made for it there were compelling and by the time

1:35:04they came out it was too late

1:35:05yeah I think so yeah I think their best chance at that point was if Twitter had

1:35:10imploded in terms of the way that there is like the sense that Twitter was

1:35:16really burning all of the bridges with third-party app developer right I guess

1:35:21that's a Twitter just completely pulled the plug on third-party APs and it was

1:35:26used the official Twitter client or don't use Twitter at all there's a

1:35:30chance that some number of us might have switched a lot of our daily church a

1:35:34turd tapped on it we still wouldn't I I think it would take a bigger implosion

1:35:40that like I i think if Twitter did what Facebook does now with their timelines

1:35:44we're alright Facebook like you can't I don't come by a combined with the

1:35:49combine it with nuking third party API third-party API's and the reason into

1:35:54third-party API's is they want to do twitter facebook like things with the

1:35:58feet right we're like they they don't show you everything that you want to be

1:36:02seeing you don't want to write and that way they can then go into business

1:36:07accounts and say oh you even though you've earned a million followers based

1:36:11on your merit and what people that people who want to hear from you

1:36:15willing to show that ten percent of them what you post unless you pay us that's

1:36:19what Facebook does and if it confuses the crap out of you on facebook but they

1:36:24don't care because the official was never a place to follow what was being

1:36:28posted if Twitter did something like that that fundamentally changes the way

1:36:33of product works then that might anger and our people like us to leave but it

1:36:40would take some even that they even that example might not be enough it you have

1:36:45to like really do something majorly messing up your product and permanently

1:36:49messing up your product before enough people would leave to make a difference

1:36:54well I think there was a time you know your ago where it seemed like Twitter

1:36:57might have been not teetering on the edge of that but maybe looking longingly

1:37:02in that direction and you know stroking their collective chin and thinking maybe

1:37:07I still wouldn't put it past them I mean yeah like god knows what it will do next

1:37:13month like that it's always it's a crapshoot their their leadership has

1:37:18been so iraq yet erratic is a great word for it it's like you never know what

1:37:23you're gonna do they they've always had this great product that was that could

1:37:28be made into a much more money title product by ruining it and so far they've

1:37:34kind of walk the line of trying to only minimally ruin it and they they

1:37:39fundamentally don't understand their homes and they also don't I think they

1:37:43also fundamentally don't value their own employees because there are some great

1:37:47people working at Twitter

1:37:49people who have been working on and have left people who I know are still there

1:37:54on the design teams who are you know just have a great track records and

1:37:59clearly aren't being listened to and not giving enough authority over the

1:38:06direction of product yeah it's I'm I'm I'm shocked at how the company continues

1:38:12to operate given how badly it seems to be led most of the time congress wrap-up

1:38:22ever now I might as well just tack on the ATP I'll talk about 45 minutes

1:38:30afterwards I think my single favorite tweet I saw today about overcast was

1:38:37somebody I know who it was but somebody sent you a fake screenshot where there's

1:38:41the there's a setting where you can you can set how long the fast-forward goes

1:38:47the end and they said I thought it would have been like this and it says 15

1:38:51seconds thirty seconds sixty seconds and then last option is however long that

1:39:00was down the trail is very good god I gotta look it up and and put it in the

1:39:04shower and he retweeted it so you better find it there alright I will find it

1:39:07there thank you Marco Arment you been signed with your time and it's alright

1:39:13good luck with overcast you are saying we should never be allowed to podcast