The Talk Show

89: ‘Cat Pictures’, With Marco Arment (Side 2)

 

  all right back to the worst episode ever to be four hours look it up soon but [TS]

  it's summertime I need long denied to a two-parter with you last time yes I [TS]

  think we're incapable of making one's under two hours [TS]

  well maybe we'll do that again I wanted to talk about custom fonts and conquer [TS]

  and overcast and you're using a phone called concourse by Matthew Broderick [TS]

  love it great fanfare as I remember talking to you about this fun got my [TS]

  been a year ago I remember you just like running up the flagpole hey what do you [TS]

  think about this I was like oh my god that is beautiful [TS]

  yeah I went about about last summer you about a year ago I was looking at tons [TS]

  of funs forever cast looking at various intervals funds with Instapaper I was [TS]

  all using I was using almost all serif fonts for all the reading faces there [TS]

  were some sans-serif 10 more popular but I was like the seraphs ones better when [TS]

  they were largely on my bed everything they did it felt like sheriff was [TS]

  somehow the proper solution for reading text it should be in serifs because [TS]

  tariffs are old and fancy and coming out like print yeah exactly I got burnt out [TS]

  on them and whenever I would do something with a serif font I would [TS]

  always think it should look better but then it didn't actually look better and [TS]

  it didn't work as well on screens for it looked good big but not small or [TS]

  something like that like there was that there were problems with saris in [TS]

  practice I i burned out on them so I was looking at good sans-serif interface [TS]

  funds for overcast and the problem of sensor is that there aren't that many [TS]

  distinct styles that are generalizable to look good enough interface as an [TS]

  investment maybe this is a terrible statement but that's not how I said no I [TS]

  think it's true well I also think that and another end of [TS]

  it is there's an awful lot of them that are all that are really good finds [TS]

  really good I like but they're too close to Helvetica to justify not using [TS]

  Helvetica [TS]

  like an uncanny valley situation specifically given Iowa s like in the [TS]

  general world if you want to use Franklin Gothic instead or you want to [TS]

  use universe which is a great great Helvetica ish find great fantastic fun [TS]

  but in the context of iOS where Helvetica is the ubiquitous ever-present [TS]

  to fall if your gonna you something different as you be different enough [TS]

  that it's all yet different exactly when there's an awful lot that a rule that [TS]

  out on those grounds [TS]

  exactly and I i tons of ants from big and small founders and designers and I [TS]

  had a problem with many of them that it was like you know this is just too close [TS]

  to love it just looks kinda weird not being disclosed so I looked at a bunch [TS]

  what what I liked about concourse the most was that it was narrow and and not [TS]

  by not by a massive amount it doesn't look like a condensed version of a [TS]

  following among a lot of fun to have condensed variants or even a compressed [TS]

  for the Super condensed very content very condensed altered narrower and [TS]

  concourse is narrower without looking like an arrow font and what that allowed [TS]

  me to do is fit more characters on a lie and for it for an afternoon news to be [TS]

  used primarily on iPhones we're ahead to display lots of like one line titles for [TS]

  things that is actually a really nice feature to have it makes it a little bit [TS]

  less likely you're gonna have to put ellipses in there and truncated career [TS]

  and even if you do you'll at least get more [TS]

  or a little bit more the actual title in rallies get like one or two more words [TS]

  that end and it had a great balance on screen of size vs weight and it came in [TS]

  it comes in like nine different weights and it also has awesome small-caps [TS]

  variant would use its effect on my favorite little things in concourse yes [TS]

  says the guy who got a small campus option into a nap [TS]

  you know protects it and they gave me like that the pairing of of like you [TS]

  know full full regular text as like you know medium medium weight regular text [TS]

  as a body and title font and then a dinner usually lighter in color [TS]

  small-caps fund for like a caption fund or the subtitle and then using it on the [TS]

  buttons and and the links like that I I found a combination early on and I liked [TS]

  it so much and it works so well for interface to have like that like that [TS]

  like to get the two different styles of conservative from roles and have them [TS]

  paired nicely on screen together I think it works you know it it fits naturally [TS]

  with what is clearly your taste and interfaces and your personal style and I [TS]

  think you know and I think you probably agree with me that I was seven has been [TS]

  very good for you personally has an app developer who does the whole thing [TS]

  yourself for the most part and and that asterisk in one quick second but you're [TS]

  like a one one man show you did the development of the back end and you did [TS]

  the the interface and you know that some of the stuff that was expected free iOS [TS]

  7 in a nap was things that you couldn't do you know the stuff that has to be [TS]

  done like in Photoshop right [TS]

  textures and materials III am NOT a graphical artist friend so I could not [TS]

  do those things [TS]

  Instapaper maybe got away with it and was a good app for you to do with your [TS]

  your abilities as designer because it was so [TS]

  know literally just the tax it was all about the text but there's other ways [TS]

  we're maybe instead papers circa you know 2009 2010 maybe should have not in [TS]

  a while you're reading but why you weren't reading should have had more [TS]

  visual to fit in [TS]

  exactly where as I was 7 really plays into the skill sets that you have [TS]

  yeah I mean I I was seven was extremely lucky for me because like this this [TS]

  shift happened that that departed from all the things I couldn't do myself all [TS]

  these like heavily textured heavily graphically themed apps from from 6 and [TS]

  earlier by six it was fading out so early from 5 and earlier all of that [TS]

  lifestyle it very quickly and then what was brought in was this this visual [TS]

  language that I could do myself and I was not expecting that at all I was very [TS]

  very happy because otherwise like the magazine design with a lot of help from [TS]

  Pacific home and she was a very simple Appin and design work in a number in the [TS]

  thousands of dollars to have a professional designer helping in [TS]

  overcast would have been probably easily tens of thousands of dollars worth of [TS]

  design work and also to take it Lautner so we know what is more expensive and I [TS]

  would have had to have to keep going back and forth with the designer to work [TS]

  out some of these things and the whole president even more complicated more [TS]

  expensive long are you know it it just would have been harder for me and and be [TS]

  able to do it all myself is so valuable as I can tweak things immediately I can [TS]

  I can visualize something my home just do it I can see how things look I can [TS]

  play with it and then I can do it all myself and at all costs me nothing set [TS]

  my own time with him already [TS]

  you know kind of getting for free in a way [TS]

  personality I think clearly it does you know one of the reasons why I never went [TS]

  the whole full textured iOS 5 after out is that that was really my thing I [TS]

  wasn't my style I would use the absence of that but I was never that into that [TS]

  style whereas this style this is really [TS]

  me this is and it's just so happens that what I like and what I can do just [TS]

  became fashionable year ago the one thing you do get help on the here's my [TS]

  asterisk from a couple seconds ago was the app icon right right and that look [TS]

  good shape the [TS]

  the tower inside the circles and that was a Lua Mantia Pacific yeah yeah yeah [TS]

  Pacific home / Louie Mantia yeah yeah and it's great I love the icon I know [TS]

  that the icons are got everybody will have an opinion on an icon and then I [TS]

  love them that this was this was my question is to me this is such a great [TS]

  icon and it does everything and i cant do where it's recognizable its [TS]

  distinctive it gives it a brand that does all these things happen also think [TS]

  that it's just an attractive shade of orange I like it I've always been a fan [TS]

  of orange if ever there was an icon that might be beyond you know I can sucks [TS]

  maybe this was it but you're saying it's not ok most people love it [TS]

  however I'm hearing from all the ones who don't I'm here to do which is why [TS]

  people love it but there's there's a handful of people who are like extremely [TS]

  offended by it like I i you know i nothing at all been books on you but I [TS]

  like I've never cared about icons that strongly like yeah I mean I will notice [TS]

  about I conference at but I'm not going to like make my usage decision based on [TS]

  which one has the best icon that I don't like I I would rather have a good app [TS]

  icons off I think people people who have opinions on apps in general and just [TS]

  want to express their opinions will often I icons the app icon gets a [TS]

  disproportionate share of that feedback right like you said it cause it's not it [TS]

  probably is like if you really had to use a beautiful great app that had what [TS]

  you thought was a lousy icon [TS]

  that's the best problem I could happen this app right you know if the app has a [TS]

  bad name [TS]

  you know it's like ok well yeah you can control it a little bit but who cares [TS]

  really yeah it's ideally you know we have a great name and memorable name you [TS]

  know but if it has allowed to name it is seems like it so much better than having [TS]

  deep problems with the software itself but yet I can't get all this feedback [TS]

  and I think it's because it's just so neatly encapsulated and so petty that it [TS]

  just draws you know it's like the old adage about politics in college [TS]

  University's Woodrow Wilson said that being president at State Treasurer than [TS]

  being president at princeton because politics there is just so meaningless [TS]

  worse something like that and the icon here like I I almost didn't use this [TS]

  icon I went back and forth and and i i think it's easy to it's easier to be [TS]

  probably get angry at modern app icon for iOS 7 because I S seven totally [TS]

  change what icons are supposed to look like and the new styles is much more [TS]

  polarizing the old-style ever was and so the new style a lot of the rigs you get [TS]

  for a new app icon is rage against the iOS 7 general aesthetic for icons and [TS]

  what this icon did thanks to Louie Louie is is is one of the people who like he [TS]

  he knows which rules to break and when to break them and and that's unusual and [TS]

  it's one of those designer I actually think that it could've it would [TS]

  translate very well to the old world like if you if we took the SAT back in [TS]

  time two years you have to redo the whole app interface but you could use [TS]

  this icon and examine just a little bit of 3d shading [TS]

  around the edges or something like that but yeah and I like this iconic what I [TS]

  like about like Louie was really was interested in about using the white as [TS]

  the inner color at as that circle the intercooler and then having this black [TS]

  outline that look good in the shape like its most Iowa 7 icons have like one [TS]

  fewer color basically and end this like it Louise Louise try this out and let [TS]

  you know that actually looks really nice now I want to do even further first if [TS]

  you look at the the overcast FM Twitter account that artwork is why I asked me [TS]

  to take this icon and make something that might make a good like podcast [TS]

  album art background so I can be shown as the default album art for some of the [TS]

  didn't have art and I liked it so much that for a while and for beta 1 this was [TS]

  the app icon and USL hated it and then and you can but but like I even like I [TS]

  like doing things that are mostly conforming to style so it looks good but [TS]

  just like putting someone there is a bit with some part of it is oftentimes [TS]

  that's what makes it good and so we did it with like having the white dinner [TS]

  color and having this black outline around around the inner shape I would [TS]

  have pushed even further if I was totally unchecked by reason and logic [TS]

  and then you know i i try try this like fiery textured version of the background [TS]

  a little bit in the background i mean as the beta 1 icon and and everyone hated [TS]

  except me and so I changed it back to bed soon as I can ok actually write this [TS]

  does look better having billion I don't think he hates not fair I think it was [TS]

  everybody I think everybody was just like you're not trust me this is like I [TS]

  i work best in an environment like that where I am able to try crazy things but [TS]

  I have some people who can like get me a little bit and say you know what [TS]

  actually you know that that's a little bit far gotta pick your battles and I [TS]

  think part of what makes somebody had beta tester is whether they know how to [TS]

  pick their battles and therefore in other words that [TS]

  they're only gonna be adamant about things they genuinely feel adamant about [TS]

  and they're gonna tell tell offered suggestions or I wish hey I wish this [TS]

  were like this but if they don't feel that strongly about it and you disagree [TS]

  they just let it go and no but that can they won't give up there and keep [TS]

  sending that feedback they won't get on their feelings won't be hurt because you [TS]

  took one of the things the wrong way but I would do that I would if you if you're [TS]

  too [TS]

  option choices for the icon were one that was good and one that was bad dude [TS]

  insisted on a bad one [TS]

  I would have written you privately and said you know made my case for the good [TS]

  one [TS]

  whereas if you had picked this icon I would I would have given you my two [TS]

  cents I think the other one better and if you disagreed that I would have never [TS]

  said it again [TS]

  yeah but I probably would have brought it up on this show [TS]

  like alternately like I'm I'm glad I tried this other icon because it was [TS]

  pushing that boundary so I gotta keep it up you can't leave take it off the [TS]

  Twitter account for a couple of weeks shows green i mean i i like it on [TS]

  Twitter as a little bit more personality two more things i wanna talk about how [TS]

  long it took you to make the appt sounds like it took from your do right by Marco [TS]

  dorigo took about 14 months with maybe a little bit of work that you done before [TS]

  then [TS]

  yet the audio engineer prototype earlier than that about you have you know spring [TS]

  you said spring 2013 and you shipped in the App Store this week in the middle of [TS]

  July 2014 yes about about 14 months yeah so I'll tell you this and I mean this [TS]

  i'm not buttering up because you're my friend because you're on my show one of [TS]

  the things I really liked best about this app is it to me it feels like a 2.0 [TS]

  it does not feel like a 1.0 app and in many ways that's because of the beta is [TS]

  like like what I think what I shipped for beta one was like a 1.5 yeah yeah [TS]

  maybe it did was a remarkably productive beta [TS]

  that is true but even then it was polish afterwards though and to me it may be [TS]

  again it's Vesper colored eyes were we shipped first after a couple of months [TS]

  without sink and then spend the majority of this year today overwhelmingly doing [TS]

  sink and then you know another way to put it is that you know maybe Vesper 1.0 [TS]

  wouldn't really ship until last month when we ship the virtually sink and we [TS]

  had a version that was usable and I don't regret it [TS]

  none of us regret it but it never really it wasn't it clearly wasn't complete [TS]

  without some kind of online saying and i also think it's interesting that it took [TS]

  about the same amount of time you know somewhere a little bit over a year to [TS]

  ship a good app hasn't online sink companion to it may be for me but maybe [TS]

  that streaming yeah maybe maybe but I don't know there's a certain you know [TS]

  you could have shipped a podcast kinda didn't have the online component that [TS]

  was more like a lot of other ones you know just ship it sooner and have it do [TS]

  it and you could have shipped version that didn't have the custom audio stuff [TS]

  just let help you manage your podcast but didn't have the custom audio stuff [TS]

  first item evict you you picked off two or three really difficult things the [TS]

  custom audio engine and the complete online version that I i to me it shows [TS]

  that it feels like it clearly must have taken over here I don't think you should [TS]

  feel like you were late I know you get you give yourself a hard time that back [TS]

  in September you thought you were six months away from [TS]

  I thought you out of your mind when you said that xoxo I think she's crazy [TS]

  psycho ship for two years and it's you know I it's a number 1 I'm very proud of [TS]

  what I shipped and I'm very happy with how it went number two though I was [TS]

  shipping this into an extremely mature market and so over the last 24 hours I [TS]

  have heard so many people who are who are very happy with it but I've also [TS]

  heard so many people [TS]

  who who expect a lot more because if it doesn't matter that's a 1.0 it matters [TS]

  that are shaping a podcast after the iOS App Store in 2014 and then the bars [TS]

  raised into a market full of these years old apps and although actually castro is [TS]

  only one year old roughly and castro is one of the most popular apps for iOS oh [TS]

  yeah I'll bet it's also even more disproportionately popular with [TS]

  listeners of the show it's a great app almost certainly is a fantastic app [TS]

  I wouldn't be surprised if a majority of people listening to talk right now are [TS]

  using either overcast or Castro probably castro first cos if only because its [TS]

  older and overcast because everybody read my sights on early adopter it's [TS]

  very possible and and you know and I like castro because castro and I are [TS]

  really don't think are competing for the same people I think it's there are two [TS]

  very different takes on a nap it's it's a terrific forced to eat but you know I [TS]

  get city's two very different styles different set of priorities so different [TS]

  features closer to one of the other I i dont really see them as like a cutthroat [TS]

  competitor for the same people I see as both doing two very different takes on [TS]

  the same problem that are going to appeal to mostly non overlapping circles [TS]

  of people and the other thing you did that i think is pretty nice and I hope [TS]

  it catches on [TS]

  I've never seen it before those you've got a section is it in the settings are [TS]

  the About screen so you settings where it's so great and so Marco and whisking [TS]

  wiska said to me the other day privately because he thinks it's gonna take by [TS]

  next year everybody's gonna have this [TS]

  release everybody in our circle you have a section you're like hey overcast is [TS]

  not for you try these other great apps and you've got a list of five other iOS [TS]

  podcasting apps I think it's five castro downcast cast party catcher Wrangler [TS]

  right and you [TS]

  randomized the order yet every time the screen loads it shows in a random order [TS]

  so there's no alphabetical bias and there's no I have no right no friendship [TS]

  bias but here is five apps that you might want to try this app is not [TS]

  meeting your needs is as a podcast app and it's great and it's part of the GFDL [TS]

  it's genius is is somewhere out there there's marketing somebody with a real [TS]

  marketing title capital and marketing background who's joking right now this [TS]

  isn't saying that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard [TS]

  never why would you ever you know you there's no thing on the back of a can a [TS]

  coke that says don't like the taste try Pepsi and with it and and instructions [TS]

  for the nearest way to go dry wood is the quickest way to go try a Pepsi but I [TS]

  think absurd different right it's like you're showing it to people who already [TS]

  have the app on their phone right you've got them right if you if if the app is [TS]

  for them [TS]

  you've got them they've they've downloaded the app they've put it on the [TS]

  phone and even checking out the setting if you aren't making them happy [TS]

  why not show them the other apps yet and that was kind of that was kind of the [TS]

  rationale there was like you know I'm not going to pretend like there's no [TS]

  other ads in this category that's you know that that doesn't that's a stupid [TS]

  and I'm not gonna pretend like I'm different Pakistan the App Store and and [TS]

  I think it's a way to to help everyone it helps them potentially by by getting [TS]

  themselves and it helps me by by making people respect me and my apt even more [TS]

  and and there's no downside to this the fact is if you want to try every one of [TS]

  his podcast apps are spending less than 20 books you know it gets [TS]

  I'm not talking about major investments huge lock in like I know as we talked [TS]

  about how these different expectation of people have a protest outside how they [TS]

  want things to behave I know as a user of these things as a listener podcasts I [TS]

  know that you know that certain apps will just hit you and certain ones just [TS]

  won't and I don't want someone abusing my apt they hate it you know i i don't [TS]

  want to force them to use my apt if there's a better one out there and so [TS]

  you know I'd rather I'd rather you be happy like I've with Instapaper I talk a [TS]

  little bit this week so I won't be two overlapping here but with Instapaper by [TS]

  the time I sold it I was in about half of the money from the optional [TS]

  subscription which was a dollar a month and you got almost nothing for it and I [TS]

  advertise it that way it was it was mostly a way to guys like you know give [TS]

  me more money if you feel like it was basically it and to be making almost [TS]

  half their income from that is crazy and I was way more than I ever expected and [TS]

  the reason that work was because over time I had built up a surplus of [TS]

  goodwill among my customers by giving them free updates all the time and [TS]

  everything and you know but just by giving them more than giving the more [TS]

  value than what they spend on the app I built up a surplus of goodwill and so on [TS]

  and put up a thing saying he can give me more money if you want [TS]

  many of them did and so I feel like you know like goodwill is something you can [TS]

  monetize that sad that sounds awful I know but like it if you put it on better [TS]

  terms like it will be returned to you like it comes around and not endear not [TS]

  completely not everyone's gonna give you money for nothing but but a decent [TS]

  portion of it more than you have you think will come around and so being good [TS]

  to people is an important part of a business model it's it's in addition to [TS]

  being a nice cool thing to do it's also smart that is the only way to do [TS]

  approach it with any kind of interesting [TS]

  long-term and my long-term I have trouble thinking more than five years [TS]

  five years to me seems like a long way off but it's almost certain that I am [TS]

  stalking me writing during fireball probably still doing the show you know [TS]

  probably still working with David Brandt on something some maps Q branch you know [TS]

  maybe Vesper will be not done but but you know move aside to the next appt [TS]

  tomorrow but the only so many ways of doing business they're not thinking that [TS]

  maybe even five years ahead right because it's a you're gonna burn through [TS]

  good will write you can't you can't last long at all while you're burning through [TS]

  good well I think and exactness and it's you know it's just a short sighted let's [TS]

  just burned through good well for 18 months and then see if somebody will buy [TS]

  us because we have a lot of users mentality is another question and sort [TS]

  of related to last is pricing and I know that you spent a lot of time thinking [TS]

  about this and you've come up with the app is free [TS]

  there's only one version of it it's you just get it downloaded for free you can [TS]

  use it you can use it forever for free you pay that online in a purchase its [TS]

  right now it's 499 that's it you buy that and it unlocks a bunch of cool [TS]

  features I I thought about so many different models I at various times in [TS]

  the last like you know six months to a year I have I've been mentally committed [TS]

  to a pay what you want model with multiple buckets that you know you just [TS]

  pay something anything and if you pay anything at all I get you all the [TS]

  features but you can pay like three different levels right now thought about [TS]

  the same thing with subscriptions same thing with revisions but named pledges [TS]

  NPR terminology public radio terminology because this is about podcasting you can [TS]

  be a pledging member maybe that make more people do it who knows a lot about [TS]

  paid up front [TS]

  free with ads free with Squarespace advertising in inside the app sorts of [TS]

  stuff like that and I i came up with relatively towards the end of [TS]

  development is very subtle on this it was a very recent decision I just came [TS]

  up with this because I realized like the more complicated and make it the few [TS]

  people gonna do it and and the more headaches I will have dealing with it [TS]

  support headaches in a customer expectations not much what they're what [TS]

  they're getting stuff like that just was not it was not gonna be worth complexity [TS]

  and so I went with just ok [TS]

  five bucks and a purchase on locks limits period a very simple old model of [TS]

  your iOS release but a simple model that would give me the most flexibility to to [TS]

  do things in the future like I can I can make it a webcam and form so that people [TS]

  who can't use in-app purchases for whatever reason can can use the web [TS]

  version by at their stuff like that and it's easy to support and it's clear to [TS]

  the customers what they're getting and what they're paying for and when they [TS]

  were paying how much you paying any any kind of subscription ordination type [TS]

  model it becomes less clear people ok what am I paying for how much will I be [TS]

  charged is forever or just for a year or what and when you do it without thinking [TS]

  much in summer 2014 and always sunny summer 2015 when you're charged again [TS]

  reminded you know bioassay however the magnetic and why is this thing that I [TS]

  haven't used this app in Lemont why is it trying to charge me and you can't [TS]

  give you so yeah it's so at this method was just way easier for everybody for me [TS]

  and for the customers and I think that these will result in better sales there [TS]

  was this heyday I mean we've talked about it you and i talked about on the [TS]

  show [TS]

  and other shows we've all talked about everybody is involved in India apps and [TS]

  generals talked about it in the post [TS]

  App Store world where yes we've been exposed to a massive market especially [TS]

  for those of us who are no match before way bigger than we ever could have [TS]

  imagined before and now it's getting to the point where maybe it's even as big [TS]

  in terms of people as as even windows was as a market size in terms of people [TS]

  which is amazing and it's a great opportunity and we've destroyed the one [TS]

  thing that we've found before that worked as a way to get people to buy it [TS]

  which was to let you try the app for free and then pay for it if you want and [TS]

  I feel like you've used this in a purchase to be able to me it's like I [TS]

  thought about it he announced you know how I'm going to charge for it and I [TS]

  thought about it I was like it seems very very obvious this seems like this [TS]

  is the way to go you get lots of people it to try it with no risk and then if [TS]

  they like it they will buy it cause I thought that you know it seemed like a [TS]

  good line you drew what you get when you pay for it because you know seems like a [TS]

  no brainer to me it's hard to know it's hard for any app to know where that line [TS]

  you know and I don't know that drawn the right lines surly time will tell people [TS]

  people are nuts about the whole cup of coffee thing you know my god I can't [TS]

  believe you want to this dance anthems cup of coffee but there's this weird I [TS]

  don't think it's that crazy though there's a weird psychological thing [TS]

  where you somehow don't even want to pay $1 I do it I spend dollar willingly here [TS]

  there to buy new apps to see what they look like but I you know [TS]

  a liar I don't look at software the way normal people do I think it's kinda [TS]

  normal that people see $0.99 before they even get to see if the app really works [TS]

  on your phone as as a risk and they want to take it and there's a number of [TS]

  factors here that that they know make the coffee analogy not work and you know [TS]

  part of it is like people have been burned a lot in the past by bad acts and [TS]

  they've paid for an app that was not as good as I wanted or didn't do it they [TS]

  thought it would and then they get out that money I mean you can you can email [TS]

  apple and request a refund but most people don't even know that you can do [TS]

  that let alone how to do that and they would actually go through with it you [TS]

  know so so for the most part yours out of this money and so that's that's no [TS]

  good [TS]

  even even on platforms refunds are easier and I think Windows Phone is [TS]

  still the easiest Windows Phone makes it really pretty easy to initiate a refund [TS]

  and it goes through I forget what the time period is an hour or day but let's [TS]

  just say it's an hour you download that you pay for an app you downloaded you [TS]

  load on her phone and you don't like it you just go back to the App Store and [TS]

  selling a refund and the Papas removed from your phone and the developer never [TS]

  gets the money it's almost like it like the transaction doesn't even happen [TS]

  right and I do think I think it would be great if Apple implemented that but at [TS]

  this point you know they haven't already I don't think they ever are but i dont I [TS]

  still don't think that would get people over the hump I don't think it would do [TS]

  much I think it would be it would be better than not having it at all but I [TS]

  don't think it would get people over that psychological harm of giving over [TS]

  $1 before they even try the app right I mean I wouldn't do that on the Mac like [TS]

  on the Mac where I live it's a different environment and we've had previous [TS]

  expectations when something is available only in the Mac App Store for a paid [TS]

  price and there is no trial right I probably won't buy it I expect a trial [TS]

  in the Mac because there have always been present a lot of time these apps [TS]

  costs like 30 $57 it's very hard to justify spending 80 bucks on on a fancy [TS]

  app that you've never tried before that you can try when refunds are difficult [TS]

  you know it's a very hard thing to do paid web apps have never really become a [TS]

  thing for various reasons they have like in in like certain verticals [TS]

  but knowledge a mass market right and i think that but what they have done [TS]

  though is that they've still leave reinforce the idea that for something [TS]

  that you see on your computer screen [TS]

  you should be able to just check it out first and of course for a lot of people [TS]

  it's turned it into everything should just be free period for ever and that's [TS]

  a separate argument but I still think that the thing that made indeed software [TS]

  development possible on the Mac and had great so great I think the reason it's [TS]

  so great on magazine you can still go to developers website and downloaded the [TS]

  demo exactly even if you eventually do go to the absurd about it and it's [TS]

  different but iOS and Android the reason why the coffee analogy does not work as [TS]

  you can say well you know you you would spend $3 and coffee without thinking [TS]

  about it that's true but there aren't people giving away coffee that's pretty [TS]

  good for free every single street corner Starbucks made every coffee free yet [TS]

  every on every street corner you could walk out of any building anywhere or [TS]

  your house on the corner the street there are people giving away pretty good [TS]

  coffee for free all the time like then it would be harder to be a coffee shop [TS]

  the charges for coffee like it it isn't about the amount of money it's about the [TS]

  competition and alternatives and the fact is there's so many apps there's so [TS]

  many apps that it doesn't matter that you're charging only a few dollars up [TS]

  front the fact is there's 10 free ones right next to you in the App Store and [TS]

  people just pick those same thing applies to the web [TS]

  you know it's the reason why pay balls on the web don't often do very well is [TS]

  because there's just tons of alternatives that are all free and I [TS]

  can't read your site [TS]

  firehouse doing you a favor by reading your site on someone else's site and [TS]

  it's terrible but that's that's the reality and you're in that like just [TS]

  give me some to read right now [TS]

  now and it's to see if you could go read something they are not as interested in [TS]

  but it's only two clicks away or you can read the thing you're interested in but [TS]

  you've gotta take out your credit card until informed forget it you know that's [TS]

  the big problem I have a wall spaces that right now at this moment even if [TS]

  you've got in your backyard had to me maybe this month I will sign up for the [TS]

  New York Times paywall maybe but in the meantime at any given moment when you're [TS]

  just looking for something to read you just gonna keep clicking into somebody [TS]

  gives you something a little different with that but anyway I think that the [TS]

  free app and then pay for differentially I don't know pay for it to unlock the [TS]

  rest of the features not the did some overcast as the first have to do it that [TS]

  way but I think it played perfectly and I think it's probably gonna be I think [TS]

  we're going to see a lot more that I hope so I mean I wish I give us more [TS]

  options regarding this matter doesn't work for all apps like certain apps it's [TS]

  very hard to know where to draw that line of ok what do you offer free and [TS]

  what do you charge for because you know certain things like it it works well for [TS]

  like games for instance you can lick you can give away the first few levels and [TS]

  have additional levels for purchase or you can do things with like oh you can [TS]

  get a power up that you only have to unlock the game to get this power up [TS]

  stuff like that you can do but think about the calculator like what you do [TS]

  charge for the nine button like how do you where do you draw that line a [TS]

  calculator like how true it's it's a hard thing it's a hard thing to do right [TS]

  and with all credits James Thompson peak out who I think every joke but it [TS]

  doesn't work for Apple has it has a rule against time bomb demos like you can't [TS]

  just say are you can try everything in the apt for a week and then it stops [TS]

  working on this you pay you actually can't do that by policy [TS]

  correct even for a lot of people know that I think developers know it but a [TS]

  lot of people know that right and and and i think that rule I'm sure Apple was [TS]

  well-intentioned when they made that rule but I think that rule holds back a [TS]

  lot of a lot of link trial where ya their goal but I think I think it's that [TS]

  hierarchy of Apple's priorities where it's [TS]

  first second their users and third developers in that order and maybe it's [TS]

  irrelevant Apple so one is out to get better for users of the app doesn't get [TS]

  time bomb so therefore the abscam P time because it uses your noise when the app [TS]

  that they've been using for the last 30 days suddenly stopped working I think [TS]

  that you know and whatever extra money Apple would get from the 30% cut from [TS]

  the extra apps that would be sold if that was allowed because it does work [TS]

  that's the thing is I'm bombing you know done appropriately is a very effective [TS]

  way for indie developers to get let people try a nap and then and then buy [TS]

  it [TS]

  yeah but it's an unfortunate that the first so many so many apps aware of that [TS]

  is the best way to do it is the other problem is if you have something like [TS]

  suppose you have a calculator app and there's some like you know certain like [TS]

  special longer them button that most people don't need and you want to put [TS]

  that behind the wall so that only people who really need that will pay for it [TS]

  will then most users won't pay for it then you have a very bad conversion rate [TS]

  of free to paid but if you like you to be careful what you limit like somebody [TS]

  asked me on Twitter today I forget where it's all it's all a blur at this point [TS]

  somebody asked me they were angry at the limitation to put in place and they said [TS]

  why don't you offer all features for free and just limit you to only [TS]

  subscribe to like five podcasts and I thought about that that was one of the [TS]

  options considered the reason why didn't do that is because when you set that [TS]

  limit first of all that would complicate things like if you only can listen to 5 [TS]

  podcasts what I do when you import european all file for twenty podcasts [TS]

  this problem with that right hand if and you know right along that line if it's [TS]

  really important to me as a user that you can import my hundred podcast OPM [TS]

  file how could I know that that the app is even gonna work for me right exactly [TS]

  so so that's problem number one but the problem number two it used to be very [TS]

  careful what you do here because anything you put behind a paywall most [TS]

  people will try to find a reason to justify [TS]

  by not getting it they will they will try to stay on the free side and try to [TS]

  not need what's on the other side and so if I say limit 5 podcasts and then I [TS]

  will these discovery features a try to promote new podcasts and people stayed [TS]

  far away from them because now they're now they have to pay ya like 10 I I [TS]

  don't like then what I'm doing is I am discouraging people from trying out new [TS]

  podcasts that's a terrible thing to do why would I want to do this like so you [TS]

  have to be very careful what you limit because whatever you limit your going to [TS]

  then strongly discouraged people from crossing that limit so that's why I [TS]

  limited things that are basically power user features that don't really have a [TS]

  major downside that most if you don't get it [TS]

  like I've limited number of playlists you only have one number of items in a [TS]

  place in the top five like these are things looking up our usual care most [TS]

  people won't play back speeds and the effects and cellular downloads those are [TS]

  all things that power users would like to do but the app is very functional [TS]

  without them and so like that I i feel like those are safer limits put in place [TS]

  and change all these next month if it doesn't work helped but I feel like [TS]

  that's those like safer lines to draw then I'm going to make you not wanna [TS]

  listen to more podcasts in my podcast app that's terrible i mean take this [TS]

  break this opportunity to thank our next sponsor our good friends at Harry's [TS]

  carries provides high quality men's shaving staff at a great price [TS]

  whole point is it's just before the founders were some of the founders of [TS]

  Warby Parker their eyeglass companies same basic idea they looked at the [TS]

  market they said hey everything on the market why is it so expensive why can't [TS]

  we make good stuff in a way lower price same thing with shaving blades [TS]

  and their half the price of the equivalent blades from Gillette or other [TS]

  big company shake shake it out there was a person familiar with ya I was too I [TS]

  don't know why and that's what I can compare to his dad and it's the same [TS]

  type of quality to me it just feels like a nice quality blade here's a seriously [TS]

  these guys take it this is what I level of the story that they bought their own [TS]

  razor blade factory in Germany to the day could control the sharpness in [TS]

  strength of their blades are not just like white labeling generic razor blades [TS]

  and putting them in a stylish package they tell you know really really control [TS]

  the quality and I love the design style of their stuff I don't think it's just [TS]

  cheaper than July I think it's actually better looking and Gillett to me like [TS]

  the the blade that I got the razor I got from from carries it looks to me like I [TS]

  could be using in 20 years and it would look just as new and just a stylish [TS]

  whereas Gillette's you know like architecture or industrial design to me [TS]

  it looks so trendy and it's you know like to take a look at the Transformers [TS]

  movies it looks like you know by next year it's gonna look like you're using [TS]

  it 2013 razor the price the price difference is truly truly significant i [TS]

  think is like two bucks to get a treat played with Harry's even less than $1 50 [TS]

  if you get the big pack yet to get the bend and Jill added you know it's like [TS]

  even in the Amazon is i three $54 and equality is there i i i use it you you [TS]

  should switch to using Ryan yeah I've been using it for much of my show that [TS]

  I'm almost through it I think we're more the handle is is amazing and the blades [TS]

  I would say are probably I was on par with Gillette Fusion blades which my [TS]

  previous favorite and it at half the price you can't beat it handles the word [TS]

  I was looking for when I was trying to say [TS]

  choose between razor blade that you know they handle things take into it as a [TS]

  shaving heard everything I double the double edge safety razor blades from [TS]

  Israel and everything adds this is good stuff it is not a joke anymore it's not [TS]

  just me telling you to go out there by this cheaper shavings I'm town yet the [TS]

  quality is there it's really good they're very very serious about it I [TS]

  really do like it better but just because it to me and I remember you said [TS]

  this on the ATP this weekend there's like I have to the handle yeah exactly [TS]

  it's very nicely weighted in a way that the disposables from joy and stuff and [TS]

  even the one that they don't call disposables they pretty much are they [TS]

  like I feel that the Gillette one like it just needs 17 blue LEDs to complete [TS]

  the aesthetic just it looks like a Transformers movie it's just it it was a [TS]

  very first droid ads and where they really liked a key masculine robot crazy [TS]

  did they actually had like to have like laser beams and weapons you always feel [TS]

  like a laser coming I there's a trend and I love it [TS]

  where I've been getting more sponsors like Harry's where they're not [TS]

  technology at all this isn't an app it's it's a real physical product and I think [TS]

  it's a great market because I feel like my show my website [TS]

  you know yours Marcos in an ATP it's it's not about tech really because [TS]

  there's mass-market tech sites that I think of a wildly different audience I [TS]

  think the audience that I have the you have this audience is more like people [TS]

  who care about nice things including tax or maybe even a special attack but what [TS]

  they really are interested in is nice things i'd rather have one nice thing [TS]

  than 10 mediocre things and Harry's to me fit exactly in line but here's the [TS]

  thing where she going to typical drugs 30 choices that qualify for that go [TS]

  online and get it there [TS]

  go to here's what you do go to Harry's dot com 8 Arry s dot com use this promo [TS]

  code talk show and put the done there but that's not that's not hold it [TS]

  against him just talk show TLK shw and you will get five bucks off your first [TS]

  purchase I don't I can't see why anybody would do this [TS]

  try it out and then not just sign up and use this stuff henceforth because it's [TS]

  cheaper and better how do you beat that even the size is nice [TS]

  boxes all the packaging is really what I think that when I first wanted to show [TS]

  they sent me a handle and three blades have since reordered out of my own [TS]

  pocket you know the the replacement blade anyone throw the empty box out [TS]

  from the first head of Leeds boxes but I have to but it's still badly they're [TS]

  really you know twenty years from now you you know the crazy person with forty [TS]

  years or twenty years of shaving cartridge box figure out what you put in [TS]

  here everything looks like a small and a trapezoid let me I can put my screws in [TS]

  here right to me that's as good a side that's when I knew that it was the real [TS]

  deal I knew as soon as I opened up the boxes I these guys got it going [TS]

  on the other great thing I just had to one other thing and I actually thought [TS]

  about this when you and I listened ATP this weekend and you know you did you [TS]

  read for Harry's chipper blades to me one of the big differences in my life as [TS]

  I remember when when I was in college I first came in had to start shaving [TS]

  didn't have money and I shaving blade forever for too long [TS]

  what difference it made when I started a walk up and it's like you know what you [TS]

  don't use them that long if you pay less for them you'll you'll use them less and [TS]

  use of pressure one more often you don't have to actually a nice trick I read [TS]

  back I was shaving heard there was like this one person kinda stuck with me from [TS]

  a guy who was like you can basically share however you want with every blade [TS]

  you can find as long as you use a new blade every single time and if you do [TS]

  played every single time you will like if you have sensitive skin which I do [TS]

  like all those problems go away and I've never been that extreme because they're [TS]

  expensive usually especially in my years at Gillette owner manual 375 played [TS]

  usually it's it's expensive it seems wasteful through the way every time when [TS]

  when the cost goes so dramatically down a bit of Harry is it becomes more [TS]

  plausible and more practical to only keep the blade for like three or four [TS]

  shades and it's a nice difference with everybody have tried you know to to not [TS]

  try to extract a month's worth of use out of a blade and if they're cheaper [TS]

  you can do that I actually shave more often now that I can say that there [TS]

  might even just say that the sponsor readers over I'm just saying that and [TS]

  they are they're cream like I i've tried a lot of shaving cream i've been this [TS]

  cheap energy and and the one I found was the best for me was the program so green [TS]

  variant I would and I've tried many others trendy ones like the taylor of [TS]

  Old Bond Street like all the fancy boutique ones I would say that Harry's [TS]

  cream for me was number two and really I've tried a lot [TS]

  did it didn't quite tough for me but it was really close and that's saying a lot [TS]

  it's nice and simple gets the job done nothing fancy it's not made a blue [TS]

  blazer yes he looks very tasteful and modern looks like wood shavings and the [TS]

  funny thing is to say since I visit their site recently now I'm seeing their [TS]

  ads and all the Google AdSense boxes all over the internet as i browse and their [TS]

  address so much more tasteful looking at the graphical banner version cause [TS]

  Google Google said over the banners of course that's out the window now and so [TS]

  now I'm seeing nice like trendy beautifully designed to Harry's ads all [TS]

  the websites they sit there and then I said so there you go you'll improve your [TS]

  ad viewing experience as well but anyway great product [TS]

  glad to have him on board and and you're not to be on trial I'm not doing you any [TS]

  favors trying to keep the show short well that's good cause I feel terrible I [TS]

  feel like I've taken a very busy man with a brand new app and have taken up [TS]

  eight hours of your Thursday night I believe in revenue in this than [TS]

  answering what is now [TS]

  1139 emails I believe it's about 45 more than three star who could we can measure [TS]

  the length of the episode in how many to the overcast support mailbox yet it's [TS]

  just about midnight eastern time like I mean obviously these people aren't all [TS]

  in USA eastern time but like just let me get this straight you so you just use [TS]

  email for support its just because it's just you right I i have in the league [TS]

  with Instapaper I hired somebody to help me with support you did that did you [TS]

  still use email or did you switch to some sort of online system for a while I [TS]

  would just give him an email address and given hosting and it just went to his [TS]

  inbox just one guy and so that was that was fine and after a while he said about [TS]

  to try some of some of these tools are out recently [TS]

  see if there are you ok sure so he tried to send you think was going with a [TS]

  couple of them [TS]

  I have I just a few of these tools before and I i hear all of them like [TS]

  everyone I've ever try to hit the one from the other guy who co-founded Stack [TS]

  Overflow Joel and I i use that actually that was what time were used for a long [TS]

  time and I i hated it in different ways at least what's nice about that one is [TS]

  it's free if you have a small team which is really nice I was six years ago I [TS]

  think it's probably is all of these products try to do too much in in [TS]

  different ways there there are very few that are focused only on JustAnswer [TS]

  support emails and tweets that's all you really need even if you leave out the [TS]

  tweets even if some else even if you do e-mail it that's great [TS]

  the problem is very hard for any of those things to actually be better than [TS]

  email you know it email it is is a fairly old mature and very versatile [TS]

  tool you can do a lot with with just you may lend you a lot of things like all [TS]

  the like i still email things to myself from my phone because it's easier than [TS]

  XY or Z or it works better or more robust or I can do the things I need to [TS]

  do with it [TS]

  email for all the problems of which there are many all these problems it is [TS]

  a really good generalist and so I so anyway so for now I'm just using email I [TS]

  in the future and emerging tech Texas pander to help a lot with some of the [TS]

  snippets like some of the comments does seem this is a known bug thank you you [TS]

  know stuff like that [TS]

  my email signature it helps to have all that stuff be the helpful in helping [TS]

  automated but I've never say I've never found one of these tools that if you're [TS]

  just one person obviously email has problems [TS]

  skill to multiple people trying to address the same support in box then [TS]

  then then I I definitely just using something else it also is kind of [TS]

  inconvenient if you hear from the same people a lot like the defense systems [TS]

  don't they'll be able to bring up this person emailed you before the show their [TS]

  previous emails along with a sort of CRM type then yeah [TS]

  so you know if you have certain certain needs then you need something else but [TS]

  for just one person answering their own support in Van requests for an app that [TS]

  you like I'm probably not like once all settles down i would i would estimate [TS]

  I'll probably get fewer than 20 emails a day for it hopefully much fewer than [TS]

  2,500 I that's obviously a total blind guess I have no idea but I assume that's [TS]

  going to be the level I'm talking about and so for that it's like he's the [TS]

  complexity of the system only worth it because these systems have you know they [TS]

  have these web interfaces that are slow and clunky I don't know I I'm a big fan [TS]

  of native apps I like I like a lot about a devout and so just be able to do this [TS]

  already very fast at using his mail app not not anything fancy I've been using [TS]

  my lap for years I know it extremely well I'm very fast and works everywhere [TS]

  I don't have to like get us a different app for each device because you have [TS]

  mail on my devices and so it's it's it's just easier in so many ways if you're [TS]

  just one person answering one inbox for when I was a bare bones and this is [TS]

  twelve thirteen years ago you know early nearly 2000 2002 2001 2002 and a lot of [TS]

  my job was did you know how pitching in and support you we did it all at the [TS]

  time we did it all by IM app even those multiple murder but it worked for a few [TS]

  reasons which was a the only people who had access to it we're we're all trusted [TS]

  there wasn't anybody who was doing support email wasn't like a truly [TS]

  trusted employee and be it was really simple system where nobody you didn't [TS]

  answer anything from the Inbox [TS]

  everybody we just made topple folders for each of us you know John Rich [TS]

  was was doing stuff Patrick and you would you know if your gonna do support [TS]

  for the next hour [TS]

  you would just dig n go through the Mbox and drag any messages that you were [TS]

  gonna take to your inbox wasn't even an inbox me your box so your folder should [TS]

  almost always be empty except for maybe like one or two flag things that you [TS]

  were you know hey I need to I gotta go to I gotta go talk to rich about this [TS]

  and get in the United can't answer that right I'm back now and say he'll get [TS]

  back to you later but I actually don't know the answer to that you know I'll [TS]

  keep it but did you know by the end of the day [TS]

  yours should be empty and then end then nobody would be double answering the [TS]

  same email from the impacts or something like that and that kind of system when [TS]

  you're in an environment where like it you know everyone's trusted and [TS]

  everyone's like you know able to do they're able to treat it properly then [TS]

  and then everyone can use their own app and there's no like weird additional you [TS]

  know third party thing to an agreed and pay for and support and move with and [TS]

  then my god awful when they go out of business and it's just it's [TS]

  email its problems it's really good a lot of things and and more importantly [TS]

  it's good enough at a lot of things yet and I also like to you kind of know what [TS]

  the customers guys see from you and you don't know exactly how they're they're [TS]

  fun set up in their mail client ever but if you just write him an email you know [TS]

  it's gonna look like you know all the other e-mail not gonna be some weird you [TS]

  know HTML formatted thing and it's not gonna have a whole bunch of auto [TS]

  generated administrative stuff you know that [TS]

  to reply to this message please include this textin subject line is that correct [TS]

  and you know make sure you write your entire reply above this line [TS]

  customer hostile experiences yeah they are you know they're writing to you [TS]

  there your customer in your given him all these rules to follow about not [TS]

  changing the subject and make sure it makes for god sake make sure everything [TS]

  you write as above this line and stuff like that you know just an email just [TS]

  text you go here's your answer I guess we should cover the news but I do my [TS]

  last bunch of good friends at cover you guys know how ru summer they are the [TS]

  domain registrars that does not quite possibly the only one is the best way to [TS]

  buy and manage domain names so when you have a great idea [TS]

  you want to get a domain name for it guess what really really hard because [TS]

  it's hard to find a good domain name because so many of them are taken cover [TS]

  has some great tools for helping you find domain name that's available and [TS]

  that's gonna work with the name you have in mind whether it's trying other [TS]

  top-level domains or whether it's combining other things before the top of [TS]

  a demand to get something that you like they're gonna give you exactly what you [TS]

  need to get the job done and you can trust them one that I gotta tell you to [TS]

  maintain registers or so scam me in general that I have never trusted before [TS]

  I started using never trusted using their told to see if a name is available [TS]

  because I always suspected that half of them with just if I say hey is you know [TS]

  you know you know Marcos new car dot com available that they're going to register [TS]

  and then hold it hostage to me because they was available but they know I want [TS]

  it so they took it it's it's a it's a business that's full of opportunities [TS]

  for squeezing us I don't know if any domain registrars ever done something [TS]

  that scare me but the fact that occurred to me you know with however you can [TS]

  trust these guys they've been in business for ever I mean I think like [TS]

  all the way back to the nineties great reputation just search the web for what [TS]

  people who use however say about them [TS]

  great tools great service [TS]

  customer service including what they called the white glove service the [TS]

  valley Valley transfers right they deserve what you do you sign up from [TS]

  their customer and you have a domain name probably had a shitty registrar [TS]

  really you know that's not going to name names but you know it probably is it's [TS]

  really hard too tricky to transfer domains especially because most of us [TS]

  are indigenous experts we can't really remember the exact step-by-step thing of [TS]

  what you do and DNS is that thing that you can screw up you can screw it up and [TS]

  it's a pain in the ass to fix it when you're screwed it up [TS]

  use terrorism Valley transfer service and they'll walk you through the steps [TS]

  will help you [TS]

  transferred daily been transferred for you and you move it from your crappy [TS]

  registrar to hover and that's free they just take care of that process for you [TS]

  just buy you pain to become their customer just included in the price of [TS]

  being great support they have other things they have volume discounts that a [TS]

  new thing that they're offering to give you a discount on domain renewals [TS]

  starting at just 10 domains so if you glad you're like me and like an idiot [TS]

  every time you a good idea for a domain [TS]

  even started like one website that you've stuck with your life and you just [TS]

  keep registering them but God forbid you let anybody else take over them they'll [TS]

  help you out with this discount on when or if you've got ten or more so what do [TS]

  you do to check them out [TS]

  easy easy go to [TS]

  dot com H O R there's a promo code used this promo code and here's what you get [TS]

  there's a sale will get 10% off your first purchase by typing a promo code [TS]

  this week's promo code is IBM i be just type that in [TS]

  don't know you came from the show will get 10% off your first purchase and all [TS]

  new domain extensions are on sale through September 1st at all these crazy [TS]

  new top-level domains here's some of the ones they've got there they got dat club [TS]

  . ninja . guru don't interpret that Guru . company they don't have any of the new [TS]

  TLD they were well I don't know . ninja might be cool if you're using it [TS]

  ironically patient days are a dot parking lot they have a dark parking lot [TS]

  for fans not yet but I'm sure the subcommittee the trend right now head [TS]

  over 200 . com see the full list of all these crazy new top-level domains [TS]

  there's hundreds of new options [TS]

  a great names are still available and are on sale through September 1st and [TS]

  use that code IBM and Dell know you came from here from my show where where we [TS]

  talk about IBM every week like obviously that code is not used by anybody else [TS]

  that's how irrelevant IBM as to the consumer web these days like that out [TS]

  there is no incentives that could I wonder why I think that's part of what [TS]

  had me so head-scratching about the whole iBM Apple news this week which I [TS]

  guess is really the only news everything else going to talk about but not really [TS]

  is why why why is it even Apple presenting this is such a big deal right [TS]

  because Apple put out of big press release and they made Tim Cook [TS]

  available for a bunch of interviews you know which to me is the bigger sign that [TS]

  Apple thinks it's a big deal if Tim Cook is going to spend the day talking to [TS]

  CNBC and the Wall Street Journal and a bunch of other things a day of Tim [TS]

  Cook's time means it's important and I that's you know my thought in this is [TS]

  just one of those things where it's like it didn't instantly make any sense that [TS]

  didn't make sense but it didn't make sense to me why it was a big deal I [TS]

  think I mean I I don't know anything about the world of enterprise computing [TS]

  and thank God for that because a little bit of texture and they're headed I'm [TS]

  very badly suited to it like I'm not saying it sucks I'm saying sucks for me [TS]

  it probably does suck but anyway I think there's there's probably a lot of value [TS]

  in Apple making a big deal out of this in all the ways the consumers will never [TS]

  hear about or care about but that businesses will because the whole point [TS]

  of this is to try to try to push the iPhone and iOS platform more into [TS]

  business and make it make it kind of fight fight the notion that that has [TS]

  played for a while which is this is like only for consumers or its its inferior [TS]

  for business purposes to things like blackberry you know they they're trying [TS]

  to fight that that perception and perception has been declining for a [TS]

  while as iOS devices have been pushing to business anyway because people wanted [TS]

  them so badly and think they kind of are forced to adopt him in the end an iOS [TS]

  got better with some of its enterprise stuff but ultimately the perception is [TS]

  still there are a lot of [TS]

  I T managers at the iOS Apple stuff is not is not for business you know it's [TS]

  not it's not ready for the enterprise or but you know what I think that's true [TS]

  I've said this before i of its kurung thing I come back to every couple months [TS]

  because something else will pop up its human beings are psychologically set up [TS]

  to make first impressions difficult to break you know it's a cliche to say [TS]

  first impressions [TS]

  and there you know when you have a job interview should do you know get all [TS]

  stressed out and do all these things right and dress exactly right and answer [TS]

  all the questions right now have a good and taking all these things but you know [TS]

  what it's one of those cliches that kinda true and I'm not saying it's fair [TS]

  or tried but it matters and so people's and it matters not just for your [TS]

  impressions of people but your impressions of everything and if your [TS]

  first impression of Apple is that they're not for business and it was [TS]

  reinforced for a while [TS]

  doesn't matter if it was set back in 1996 when it was almost literally a [TS]

  completely different Apple it it still stands for some people today [TS]

  yeah definitely and a lot of the cprit managers of big companies yeah I think [TS]

  so true I think so I think that's exactly true and Tim Cook going around [TS]

  doing all these like BS interviews with business people about business things I [TS]

  think it's all about attacking that it's all about like getting out there and you [TS]

  know a press release with what consumers gonna give crafted a press release to [TS]

  hear about it you know my pizza guy who asked about the time I get a pizza he [TS]

  reads like all the worst Apple rumor sites so he always ask me about all the [TS]

  ridiculous like the most ridiculous possible things that are so ridiculous [TS]

  you won't even comment on them I get everything so it was pretty often I I [TS]

  get asked about those things and you know he's never gonna hear about this [TS]

  ever because it is so important to even consumers who are interested in Apple [TS]

  never gonna greater but the business community this will be like there's [TS]

  gonna be a white paper somewhere there's going to be like things the business [TS]

  community needs like sources a year references oh well this is apparently [TS]

  going into business this is this is something that I T managers can show [TS]

  each other and the CAF and the CTO and the CEO above them like they can show [TS]

  each other and everyone here we should maybe consider those here some [TS]

  supporting documents to support this you know it it's all about placating the [TS]

  needs of the business world in using their language and and their methods of [TS]

  of communicating tax even even at the enterprise level it moves fast but tech [TS]

  moving fast at the enterprise level is a helluva lot slower than moves at the [TS]

  consumer level yeah I'm pretty sure my bank 2012 right exists a perfect example [TS]

  like how many ATMs are crazy Windows systems Windows 98 base and I know that [TS]

  the target the target hack was based on crazy old version of Windows that [TS]

  they've still been rolling out and brand new Target stores you know decades later [TS]

  but it does it compare to the world at large [TS]

  still moves fast but it's it's easy to miss that caused it so much slower than [TS]

  the daily garage of tech news that it's easy to miss the trends until they're [TS]

  already in the rearview mirror and I i kind of feel like what what Apple IBM [TS]

  deal is showing is it sort of stage to the beginning of stage two of Apple's [TS]

  renaissance in the business market staged one was just getting iPhones and [TS]

  iPads in at all and it said literally what they've bragged about for the last [TS]

  few years the percentage of Fortune 500 companies where iOS devices or use and [TS]

  it's you know it's now it's up to like a ridiculous numbers like 98% but it's [TS]

  always been a conspicuous that they don't say how many are being used in [TS]

  each one right times like they aren't officially supported like a lot of times [TS]

  you know the devices have gotten into these companies reluctantly because [TS]

  somebody in a position of power got an iPhone or iPad him aren't used to work [TS]

  as the department but certainly want to supporters of the car is fine you're the [TS]

  CEO got an iPhone wants to use it we have to do this so we will support it [TS]

  and a half at minimal way but we're not going to let everyone do this I don't [TS]

  think that's without counting I think when apple says ninety percent of the [TS]

  Fortune 500 is using a knife is using the iPhone I think that they they are [TS]

  there I think Apple's honest enough today means that they on it they have [TS]

  some kind of corporate relationship and apples enterprise you know sales people [TS]

  that that they can legitimately say that probably companies that big but I don't [TS]

  think it necessarily translates to a high unit count or head count right i [TS]

  mean just to pick one example of a company I know is must be in the Fortune [TS]

  500 because they are the second biggest company will relax on you know so let's [TS]

  say it's doing acts on his part of that ninety percent doesn't mean there's a [TS]

  thousand people with iPhones on that big a deal because as you know tens and tens [TS]

  of thousands of boys I think that that stage one is just getting any [TS]

  relationship at all maybe it's just the sea level people maybe it's just like a [TS]

  the CEO one an iPhone so officially you know anybody who works in the CEO's [TS]

  office can use an iPhone but like the rank and file of tens of thousands of [TS]

  people you know still you using whatever you know blackberries or something like [TS]

  that I think stage two is about getting that number bigger and Tim Cook kind of [TS]

  alluded to that one of his interviews that is that there's a huge that yes [TS]

  we've got this huge number of Fortune 500 companies doing it but that there's [TS]

  tons of devices and various you know whether the phones PCs or whatever that [TS]

  could be replaced with iOS devices and there's huge upside their numbers and I [TS]

  think that's what this is about [TS]

  yeah maybe I mean to some degree having like using iOS devices as my custom work [TS]

  terminals are like you like my UPS guy hands me some kind of crazy ass thing to [TS]

  sign digitally when I get a package delivered [TS]

  yeah and you know the idea of that someday being an iPhone and iPad I [TS]

  actually have a hard time buying that because the characteristics that that [TS]

  business is expected to do something like that they're going to expect [TS]

  platform this highly customizable to examine their needs and stable and will [TS]

  be easily bend over backwards to support them indefinitely [TS]

  none of those things are Apple strong points or even Apple wanting to do those [TS]

  things like Apple is perfectly happy to like drop support for all things [TS]

  lockdown control all sorts of all sorts of that let them produce good devices as [TS]

  long as you fit within their needs but also tend to shut out corporate needs [TS]

  like that yeah well I think that's though it potentially plays to Apple's [TS]

  traditional strengths though where Apple is never been about selling all of [TS]

  anything you know that they don't need you know that's where Microsoft is [TS]

  always about microsoft wanted every single computing device in the entire [TS]

  building to be running some version of Windows whereas Apple I don't think is [TS]

  going to shoot for that I don't know if Apple would say the UPS you still want [TS]

  to have all I mean how many ups ups guys the delivery guys I don't know probably [TS]

  thirty forty thousand an idea though it's one of those terrible job interview [TS]

  questions I i was gonna guess 25,000 so I know that's just a guess but you know [TS]

  that's a 25,000 I'm so let's say they have I don't know thirty thousand of [TS]

  those finer things because they want to have more of them than they have people [TS]

  and they say you know what we don't really want to use iOS devices for XYZ [TS]

  reasons I think applet ok that sounds good you know but if you know what about [TS]

  if every every manager at the depot centers where their dispatch was using [TS]

  an iPhone and using an iPhone app custom iPhone app to manage whatever he does he [TS]

  does all day I think you know if that's all they got there would be great [TS]

  because it all upside for them because they never sold anything to those [TS]

  companies could point you know that the only two places where you can see the [TS]

  need for a $500 iPad you know but if it's possible that a $500 iPad would [TS]

  make sense for you and it totally makes sense that maybe for a UPS delivery guy [TS]

  who's got a really physical job that have $500 device with a glass screen or [TS]

  even you know safire's green it doesn't make any sense you know it's durable [TS]

  enough and it's too expensive to replace one is broken but there are still all [TS]

  sorts of opportunities where an iOS device might make sense and never you [TS]

  know it's all upside for Apple because they never had anything no foothold in [TS]

  that market [TS]

  yeah I asked today I don't we saw you real busy today but I asked today while [TS]

  my Christmas question is yeah weird were Tim Cook said he uses an iPad for eighty [TS]

  percent of his work and ice which i think is you know I think it's [TS]

  interesting and I kind of believe him I i guess i dont know that I'm sure he [TS]

  didn't scientifically measured have somebody fall around with a stopwatch [TS]

  measuring how much the biggest red flag that sounds suspicious to me is text [TS]

  input like does he use a keyboard I doubt it I mean that would look very [TS]

  good you know how does he manage to text input as he just a lot of very short [TS]

  responses to I would imagine the CEO I would imagine a big part of his job [TS]

  email I that's a good question I would think so too but maybe it needs to know [TS]

  sent short email Steve Jobs century amounts you know I think Steve Jobs is [TS]

  like his latter years an awful lot of the member when those emails does those [TS]

  MacRumors some random guy on the internet got an answer from Steve Jobs [TS]

  an awful lot of those in the last few years were had sent sent from my iPhone [TS]

  yeah I'd say most of them actually did ya so steve Jobs was sending a lot of [TS]

  email from his iPhone I don't know that it's it's ridiculous that Tim Cook is to [TS]

  their I always thought as an aside I always thought it was very noble that [TS]

  Steve Jobs kept that the fall sick and his email which is terrible I but it [TS]

  kind of makes sense that it would it would be Steve Jobs signature you know [TS]

  that I could see that like that it's a very fair that's honestly very fair like [TS]

  like like when you buy a new Samsung Galaxy S and [TS]

  fault signals sent from my samsung trademark Galaxy mark 6 trademark on [TS]

  AT&T LTE 4G internet from the now network trademark do you really think [TS]

  that AT&T CEO is is using that signature on his phone I hope so but I really [TS]

  doubt I think it should be a rule that if if you if you are the kind of if [TS]

  you're the kind of position where you can dictate a default will be used by [TS]

  thousands of people you should have to use your so I absolutely believe [TS]

  whatever the default is that you said you should have to write I i you know i [TS]

  believe in personal freedom and liberty but I would support making that a law [TS]

  and there's an easy way did you can you can set your email signature don't ever [TS]

  you want by the shipping at fault email signature that the blank exactly and ask [TS]

  them you know what it what you want to put at the bottom of your emails anyway [TS]

  I always thought that was great about jobs so I believe it about Tim Cook and [TS]

  I think it's great that he uses the iPad but my question and it was prompted by [TS]

  the great contra on Twitter take a counter notions one of the great [TS]

  anonymous or pseudonymous I guess what are their personalities does IBM CEO [TS]

  Ginni Rometty use an iPhone and I'm totally serious when I say that I think [TS]

  that's an interesting and telling you no question do you agree that I i think [TS]

  that would be interesting to know the answer to if you could actually trust [TS]

  the answer like it you know if they just gave in a press statement oh yes that's [TS]

  probably BS who knows but if if you actually get the word head of [TS]

  trustworthy information that says oh yeah yeah they've been using an iPhone [TS]

  four for months or years whatever that's interesting to know but it's i think [TS]

  it's a little bit less interesting because IBM doesn't make phones do this [TS]

  right so it but right [TS]

  but I don't know why I think you're right though like that that could show a [TS]

  level of caring that like you know if the CEO doesn't even use an iPhone how [TS]

  committed is that you know how how much does this new partnership really matter [TS]

  like what is really like to actually go anywhere and if the CEOs care deeply [TS]

  enough to even try it themselves right in their own enterprise cuz you know IBM [TS]

  itself is is like it's like a fractal like where their their business is you [TS]

  know consulting and services for the enterprise but they themselves are like [TS]

  the canonical enterprise right if they're not good enough for their own [TS]

  enterprise knees than you know themselves are a massive company with [TS]

  very large needs and the conservative you know technically conservative not [TS]

  politically conservative you know but that that they still used Lotus Notes [TS]

  and stuff like that [TS]

  well and they still use it and and and i think that I think their conservatism [TS]

  technically I mean partly that's what they sell that that is their product is [TS]

  also their culture and that's that's why I think this is interesting at all you [TS]

  know if if Apple had a partnership with somebody smaller somebody more dynamic [TS]

  it would be less interesting the fact that partnering with IBM is more [TS]

  interesting because it is so opposite of what you would expect but their money [TS]

  explain it and they say oh well we know we have no overlap but this makes sense [TS]

  then it's like ok I can get that ok that makes sense yeah I don't know I just [TS]

  think it would be telling her I said I don't think it if it turns out she [TS]

  doesn't she uses something else you know my question though is at this point in [TS]

  time maybe that's telling about the state of the mobile world how crazy is [TS]

  it away it seems crazy to think that the I president and CEO of IBM uses an Apple [TS]

  iPhone [TS]

  as a phone bill but all should she use yeah why should she is blackberry 10 [TS]

  blackberry is you know clearly on the way out and just can't do things that [TS]

  people expect to do on a mobile platform right now I would say two years ago [TS]

  blackberry would have still been a plausible guessed right and like two [TS]

  years ago there were still a lot of like you know quote business people who are [TS]

  still claim that their Blackberries I have to imagine today it's getting much [TS]

  more rare to see a berry actually in use by somebody who liked by someone who [TS]

  just bought a new fuck yeah I got a new phone yesterday at the new BlackBerry [TS]

  recap how often do you ever see that even even now in the business community [TS]

  I have to imagine that's extremely rare [TS]

  i've i've never seen somebody using the touchscreen blackberries and I you know [TS]

  I don't fly frequently by five frequently enough and I did not be a [TS]

  place where I was spotted and I never seen it I still see people with the the [TS]

  bunny ones but fewer and fewer there but I quickly [TS]

  well it's so it's possible she is a blackberry I would guess it's probable [TS]

  she at least used to use a blackberry so maybe she still am but you know we [TS]

  wouldn't be a distressing sign that the CEO of IBM is still holding onto a [TS]

  blackberry which is clearly dying platform what else Andrew and I don't [TS]

  think so why would it make sense why would it make any more sense for the [TS]

  president of IBM to be using Android phone then I mean if anything I think it [TS]

  made the most sense for the president to use one of those like stahlman phones at [TS]

  Sasol Linux and crazy stuff I did exist people to meet those people trying to [TS]

  make him but I don't think that they would work in the enterprising all I [TS]

  mean I think there's a security angle there but I don't think there's an [TS]

  integration with all the software that they have to integrate with its gonna [TS]

  get certified network even know probably not but probably incompatible with being [TS]

  open source I but they can't do it I don't know about that I don't think so [TS]

  I've never heard of any company that that using those it seems to me like the [TS]

  people who that appeals to our security experts [TS]

  you know that's a very small knit yeah it's a great argument but it's not I [TS]

  don't think it's something that IBM would use standardized on you know and [TS]

  there's a bunch of people on Twitter who answered my question and said that they [TS]

  don't know but that there are people in IBM using iPhones in that there's a lot [TS]

  of people who work at IBM use iPads on a regular basis that there is a lot of dog [TS]

  shooting in that regard within IBM yeah it makes sense [TS]

  IBM what most people think of them as is not what to do anymore you know most [TS]

  people think of of their days as the computer manufacturer right and that is [TS]

  not their business anymore they have got rid of I believe that entire business [TS]

  don't have any parts of it left no they are a services they their enterprise [TS]

  services company and then my two servers but I haven't seen IBM server for a long [TS]

  time and if they do I think I think it counts more as consultant then server [TS]

  sales you know I think that then I think when you buy if it's if they have a [TS]

  better cost way more for the service contract and everything than the actual [TS]

  hardware yeah I don't think you can just go buy one IBM server from Amazon I [TS]

  think you'd like to be involved anyway so you know they have all these like [TS]

  services you know they they will contract to your business to build your [TS]

  CRM system for you stuff like that that's or you can use a big list was [TS]

  installation yeah I mean and I don't know most of what they do because i dont [TS]

  industry but that's that's a high-level version of it basically and and it's [TS]

  like if that's your business then yeah it helps it helps to some degree to [TS]

  primarily sell your stuff when you have something in a certain market you know [TS]

  you know if they have their own their own document management server then it [TS]

  makes sense for them to sell that as much as they can as part of these deals [TS]

  but if the business road is demanding integration with iOS devices and if they [TS]

  don't sell iOS devices something like I was devices it totally makes sense for [TS]

  them to address the demand and not be religious about it not be like oh we [TS]

  can't deal with them because you know their Apple in [TS]

  we used to be enemies you know they the fact is they're not enemies now and I [TS]

  remember an extremely different missions now than where they both were [TS]

  respectively in the early eighties and and IBM is no longer like they don't [TS]

  they they have no reason to care whose phones they're selling anymore and in [TS]

  fact well I don't think they should karen that it's any one particular one [TS]

  that I can see why it would appeal to them to sell Apple because Apple you [TS]

  know is is single source they would make it easier for them then they did were [TS]

  doing the same thing with Android and if there's demand in these companies in the [TS]

  same way that so many people you know brought in iPhones because they wanted [TS]

  to and they made the company support them afterwards if if there are [TS]

  compelling reasons for companies whether its employees who want to use iPads [TS]

  employees who already are using them anyway and wanted to work better and be [TS]

  more of the company's networks and stuff or just you know things like deploying [TS]

  custom iOS devices as part of the UPS guy tools or whatever if if the business [TS]

  and are demanding that stuff it is in IBM's best interest to work with Apple [TS]

  to to offer that to integrate that into the contract and services they're [TS]

  providing otherwise because that's what our customers are demanding yeah maybe [TS]

  you know part of the fallout of this is is it really even about Apple at all but [TS]

  really about the way that IBM is not the IBM we've always thought of and I knew [TS]

  that but this is just sort of crystallizing it i mean the only people [TS]

  who should be upset about this or Microsoft [TS]

  this is their business before this is exactly like this is the business that [TS]

  that I've argued for a while that Microsoft should be getting into more [TS]

  heavily there you have a very strong enterprise division and and certainly i [TS]

  i assume I I don't know this for sure I'm sure Microsoft is is probably IBM's [TS]

  biggest competitor for any pressure versus that might not be sure certainly [TS]

  they're up there and enterprise services are great business for that kind of [TS]

  thing because it's a big profitable relatively stable industry being [TS]

  compared to consumer tech which is very hard and fickle and low margin usually [TS]

  so right so you know Microsoft should this is what Microsoft should be doing [TS]

  but they're not for various reasons and I think more than more than anything [TS]

  it's a sign of the times not that apple and IBM are working together but that [TS]

  there's a major enterprise partnership that does not involve Microsoft it all [TS]

  well and in not just the partnership but that that the landscape is changing in a [TS]

  way that such a partnership could exist without Microsoft exact cause even if [TS]

  Microsoft were involved at the enterprise sales level it still up until [TS]

  very recently still would have implicitly men everybody who was getting [TS]

  one of the devices was getting a Windows PC and the customs office license the [TS]

  custom app that was being written would be a Windows app exact work and the very [TS]

  least would be an app that runs on Windows cause may be a small part of the [TS]

  trend over the last decade has been web apps you know even in the enterprise but [TS]

  of course you know Windows is cut off from that their own lunches women's [TS]

  usually run in IE businesses right but when you're talking about iOS apps now [TS]

  you're talking about something where Microsoft is just completely out of the [TS]

  out of the loop relevant to to the solutions that any any any product or [TS]

  solution that Apple IBM will work on together will almost certainly not [TS]

  involve anything from Microsoft at all it will almost certainly only serve to [TS]

  make Microsoft stuff irrelevant and a nun and unnecessary yeah I like I said [TS]

  before this I think this is all upside for Apple and every additional every [TS]

  time this works and IBM makes one of these deals that gets iPads and iPhones [TS]

  into an enterprise it's all upside trouble its iPhones and iPads they will [TS]

  they will sell now that they wouldn't have sold before maybe it'll be a huge [TS]

  increase maybe it'll be like you know five percent increase in iPad and iPhone [TS]

  sales six seven eight percent I don't know maybe it'll be small maybe one [TS]

  percent but everyone that sold his upside but at the same time it's almost [TS]

  probable that everyone [TS]

  is a loss for Microsoft these are all tasks that Microsoft stuff was was [TS]

  mostly was almost all use 44 alright maybe with the phones it's not because [TS]

  Microsoft never really had a big phone but people are now using their phones [TS]

  for things they previously used to have to use the laptop for and certainly [TS]

  anything that you use an iPad for in these situations is something that would [TS]

  have otherwise been a Windows PC yeah I definitely and I think that's that's [TS]

  really really a big deal yet [TS]

  really really a big deal yet [TS]

  this is this apartment those things where you know in a year where we're [TS]

  going we will have forgotten about it but unlike in five years we might look [TS]

  back on this and say oh that that was the start of a big shift yeah and I [TS]

  think we all probably see it like me and you don't enter the enterprise at all [TS]

  yeah I don't think so we wanted to we couldn't get it right and we would [TS]

  encounter it in as slides and at em cookie know instead of instead of [TS]

  talking about what percentage of Fortune 500 are using iOS devices its gonna [TS]

  switch to something like percentage of mobile devices and fortune 500 company [TS]

  right because that's something they've never talked about but if that becomes a [TS]

  sizable number that could be HUGE right even if Apple just gets twenty percent [TS]

  20% of all mobile devices and fortune 500 companies that's enormous cuz it's [TS]

  also almost certainly the most expensive twenty percent of the mobile devices in [TS]

  a fortune 500 company almost certainly you know and that's how Apple that's [TS]

  exactly how Apple's come to dominate the revenue and profits in the consumer and [TS]

  in the consumer side of the market is just by taking the 20% where the most [TS]

  money as it seems to work well so far I wanted to keep this short so it's it's [TS]

  wrapping up now if you want to talk about anything else in mind this week [TS]

  now I'm just trying to get through now [TS]

  1147 emails so what was the counter the apps I think about sixties [TS]

  thing is for the listeners that because of the way the both of us talk I would [TS]

  expect it to be about 45 minutes shorter and overcast I think we're going to [TS]

  split into but they'll still still save them both you'll still save the 45 [TS]

  minutes as you get through both episodes you can really boost the the smart speed [TS]

  total stats we're gonna go to find out more [TS]

  the website is overcast . alright the Twitter account is overcast FM and of [TS]

  course you are at Marco dot org [TS]

  Marco Arment on on Twitter you can save save five characters and you're just [TS]

  Marco on there was no they were using for Twitter app that net is that still [TS]

  up I really want to work but I think it was hopeless from the start honestly I [TS]

  think it had it had a good run like it had a longer run than expected for it [TS]

  but you guys had a great dissection post-mortem and sadly I think [TS]

  post-mortem is the right word about it and that sort of you know and you can [TS]

  apply you can circle back to what we were talking about with free apps and [TS]

  paid apps that but there's something about a social network for pay first was [TS]

  just never gonna work and you never gets also it's very hard for a social network [TS]

  to have something else created that is extremely similar to one its already [TS]

  successful Avenue and take off like it has to be after net was not different [TS]

  enough from Twitter and I know that they thought they were but the but the [TS]

  product most people saw wasn't yeah you know that's a that's a common problem [TS]

  when you're on the inside of a product or service is that you're so intimately [TS]

  familiar with it that you can send in your bones that you're different enough [TS]

  to matter but it if ever had but yeah and you you're right I bet they're right [TS]

  I think that there are a hundred percent right that they were different [TS]

  matter but sadly it wasn't different enough in a way that was obvious from [TS]

  the outside and so does everybody else it didn't exactly a very common problem [TS]

  keeps yelling to yourself and your head no look it's like YouTube for dog videos [TS]

  it's totally different [TS]

  the newsroom and videos on YouTube it's it's it's exactly the same problem [TS]

  well and part of it like you can build weird other apps that were built on the [TS]

  app net and infrastructure that you could never build on Twitter correct [TS]

  yeah but that was all stuff that was not only added later but also stuff that was [TS]

  just it just never got a foothold it wasn't really addressing pressing needs [TS]

  a lot of people had and the whole model of like having to pay for an account for [TS]

  so long before that the free thing never give people a reason to sign up for it [TS]

  and never gave the people who did sign up a reason to keep using it and it [TS]

  never give developers enough of a reason to require it to build the school [TS]

  promised apps on it like this [TS]

  the cost of requiring it was so high because you have all your customers who [TS]

  had then get up on their accounts like it was a big burden to place on on those [TS]

  acts so that very few out of it made for it there were compelling and by the time [TS]

  they came out it was too late [TS]

  yeah I think so yeah I think their best chance at that point was if Twitter had [TS]

  imploded in terms of the way that there is like the sense that Twitter was [TS]

  really burning all of the bridges with third-party app developer right I guess [TS]

  that's a Twitter just completely pulled the plug on third-party APs and it was [TS]

  used the official Twitter client or don't use Twitter at all there's a [TS]

  chance that some number of us might have switched a lot of our daily church a [TS]

  turd tapped on it we still wouldn't I I think it would take a bigger implosion [TS]

  that like I i think if Twitter did what Facebook does now with their timelines [TS]

  we're alright Facebook like you can't I don't come by a combined with the [TS]

  combine it with nuking third party API third-party API's and the reason into [TS]

  third-party API's is they want to do twitter facebook like things with the [TS]

  feet right we're like they they don't show you everything that you want to be [TS]

  seeing you don't want to write and that way they can then go into business [TS]

  accounts and say oh you even though you've earned a million followers based [TS]

  on your merit and what people that people who want to hear from you [TS]

  willing to show that ten percent of them what you post unless you pay us that's [TS]

  what Facebook does and if it confuses the crap out of you on facebook but they [TS]

  don't care because the official was never a place to follow what was being [TS]

  posted if Twitter did something like that that fundamentally changes the way [TS]

  of product works then that might anger and our people like us to leave but it [TS]

  would take some even that they even that example might not be enough it you have [TS]

  to like really do something majorly messing up your product and permanently [TS]

  messing up your product before enough people would leave to make a difference [TS]

  well I think there was a time you know your ago where it seemed like Twitter [TS]

  might have been not teetering on the edge of that but maybe looking longingly [TS]

  in that direction and you know stroking their collective chin and thinking maybe [TS]

  I still wouldn't put it past them I mean yeah like god knows what it will do next [TS]

  month like that it's always it's a crapshoot their their leadership has [TS]

  been so iraq yet erratic is a great word for it it's like you never know what [TS]

  you're gonna do they they've always had this great product that was that could [TS]

  be made into a much more money title product by ruining it and so far they've [TS]

  kind of walk the line of trying to only minimally ruin it and they they [TS]

  fundamentally don't understand their homes and they also don't I think they [TS]

  also fundamentally don't value their own employees because there are some great [TS]

  people working at Twitter [TS]

  people who have been working on and have left people who I know are still there [TS]

  on the design teams who are you know just have a great track records and [TS]

  clearly aren't being listened to and not giving enough authority over the [TS]

  direction of product yeah it's I'm I'm I'm shocked at how the company continues [TS]

  to operate given how badly it seems to be led most of the time congress wrap-up [TS]

  ever now I might as well just tack on the ATP I'll talk about 45 minutes [TS]

  afterwards I think my single favorite tweet I saw today about overcast was [TS]

  somebody I know who it was but somebody sent you a fake screenshot where there's [TS]

  the there's a setting where you can you can set how long the fast-forward goes [TS]

  the end and they said I thought it would have been like this and it says 15 [TS]

  seconds thirty seconds sixty seconds and then last option is however long that [TS]

  was down the trail is very good god I gotta look it up and and put it in the [TS]

  shower and he retweeted it so you better find it there alright I will find it [TS]

  there thank you Marco Arment you been signed with your time and it's alright [TS]

  good luck with overcast you are saying we should never be allowed to podcast [TS]