The Talk Show

88: ‘Cat Pictures’, With Marco Arment (Side 1)


00:00:00   has your week she is widely what they launched in Africa I forgot how much [TS]

00:00:11   work this is it's been awhile since I've had an app in the store and laptop that [TS]

00:00:14   was in the store is the magazine because I'm very popular and didn't require tech [TS]

00:00:18   support man what was I thinking what's gone wrong it's it's mostly the funny [TS]

00:00:28   thing is it's been a very successful launch overall there have been very few [TS]

00:00:32   real major problems there have been a few minor bugs many of us have a simple [TS]

00:00:40   fix server-side just like you know such certain podcast feeds weren't being [TS]

00:00:44   called right or something but overall the dogs have been really good the [TS]

00:00:49   problem is I've gotten nothing done since yesterday when I launched it [TS]

00:00:53   because I've been trying to keep up with all the tweet responses trying to read [TS]

00:00:57   all the reviews trying to end a recent leaders to try to answer all these [TS]

00:01:01   emails I currently have 1099 unread emails in my inbox I just finished our [TS]

00:01:10   attacking them tonight after making a bunch of the common responses doors bird [TS]

00:01:15   is the word is that that's over a hundred higher the number you quoted me [TS]

00:01:19   about six or seven hours ago when I check to see if this show ya 950 but [TS]

00:01:28   they're coming in faster response like 900 around noon or so yeah I mean I [TS]

00:01:35   guess I was 9 hours ago so that they give you some idea like the over the [TS]

00:01:39   total downloads of the entire app like the number of people who downloaded not [TS]

00:01:43   even the people who have made an account just people have downloaded the app at [TS]

00:01:46   all is roughly thirty five to forty thousand I don't have done today stepped [TS]

00:01:50   up its almost immediate little bit but roughly 35 40,000 well I mean that's an [TS]

00:01:56   event has gone very happy with that out of those at least 1,500 them have [TS]

00:02:02   emailed me that seems like a kind of high ratio to me I don't know that that [TS]

00:02:07   kind of seems too high [TS]

00:02:09   that does seem high but it's i think it's also the nature though you're the [TS]

00:02:14   weirdo nature and you know I'm in the same boat but but we're we're media [TS]

00:02:19   personalities you know people read our sites were sort of have a column has [TS]

00:02:23   style and we do podcasts of course obviously I think we do I think that [TS]

00:02:31   encourages a sort of wanting to give feedback like and they don't think and [TS]

00:02:39   again I bet you'll agree with me I will bet you'll agree with this that even [TS]

00:02:43   though you're you're complaining about being swamped but your privilege and I [TS]

00:02:46   thrilled that people want to do that and say nice things about your apparatus [TS]

00:02:50   questions and stuff I i dont know definitely i mean i i really want to do [TS]

00:02:57   as much of the support of this myself and I regret saying that god bless you [TS]

00:03:03   as well but what I've done instead is I tried to ridiculously minimize the [TS]

00:03:08   number of supporting actually get so I can actually treat them like a human [TS]

00:03:13   being or at least hire somebody to do it and keep an eye on it very closely [TS]

00:03:16   whereas with with Instapaper was never able to do that there is too much [TS]

00:03:19   support and that's sort of a virtuous circle where you being motivated to [TS]

00:03:27   minimize support issues [TS]

00:03:29   design and development wise because you're going to deal with them yourself [TS]

00:03:33   means that if you succeed it works and you have less time doing support and [TS]

00:03:37   vote for you know where is if you had somebody doing support you when I maybe [TS]

00:03:40   wouldn't be as as you wouldn't care quite as much right this is something [TS]

00:03:44   that you friended University no jacket has always said that he I believe this [TS]

00:03:49   case that he always answers all his own support email so that he is both you [TS]

00:03:54   know on top of issues as they arise and aware of what people are asking for and [TS]

00:03:58   so that he is motivated to fix problems in the app that caused a lot of support [TS]

00:04:03   issues so that people don't even have to email you know everyone there so I'm [TS]

00:04:08   trying it out I'll see you mean [TS]

00:04:11   I i don't have any idea what the like stable Email rate will be five weeks [TS]

00:04:19   from now on a Tuesday you know what's what's going to be the email read that [TS]

00:04:22   day I don't know so I'll see if I can still handle it myself I i would like to [TS]

00:04:27   do as much by myself in the early days as possible at this initial batch of [TS]

00:04:31   1,100 more this initial batch of 1100 + emails I would like to get the result [TS]

00:04:39   just so I have some idea like what are people asking for what you know what [TS]

00:04:43   what should I be doing differently what it what is confusing people about the [TS]

00:04:47   app that I should they should think about rearranging or read labeling or [TS]

00:04:51   rethinking I know I know cable sasser does the same thing with major releases [TS]

00:04:56   and only does it with every major release but I know that he's done that [TS]

00:05:00   like and I don't think he has dated dive into this report on a regular basis but [TS]

00:05:04   it's like when they launched like coda four point out whatever the next version [TS]

00:05:08   is he'll spend like that that like 36 hour manic period of ok it is out on the [TS]

00:05:16   front lines of the support you you know working through because he wants that [TS]

00:05:20   experience he wants to see that you know initial feedback and it's valuable [TS]

00:05:26   there's there's an endorphin high of a big release like this that and it to me [TS]

00:05:32   it it's you know in hindsight you can look back and say this is a great week [TS]

00:05:36   if it's you know as long as the launch successful and it's not something like [TS]

00:05:41   holy crap you know the server actually can't you know take more than a hundred [TS]

00:05:46   years and that I lucked out big time with that cause I was that's what I was [TS]

00:05:50   most worried about I had forgotten about the the concept of support email I was [TS]

00:05:54   much more worried about the service holding up and I didn't really I [TS]

00:05:58   couldn't really predict how heavy load would be on the server so I went online [TS]

00:06:03   where all my stuff is couple days ago and I just added like eight new servers [TS]

00:06:08   because you can add whatever you want to build our early so I just had way more [TS]

00:06:14   competitive and then I think I will need and make a way that I can usually clone [TS]

00:06:18   them if I need even more than that [TS]

00:06:20   and then you know I can always take them all down next week yeah and and manage [TS]

00:06:25   where you've done large-scale things before Instapaper the tiny users and you [TS]

00:06:31   know you know a lot like overcast is largely you know it's the whole thing is [TS]

00:06:37   the whole premise is built on the server [TS]

00:06:40   tumblr obviously I think has a fair number of users and even you know [TS]

00:06:48   however much smaller they were when you left [TS]

00:06:50   tumbler that was a big ass website when you left yet I mean when I left if I [TS]

00:06:55   screwed up I would serve about 1,200 error pages per second alright well [TS]

00:06:59   there you go that's actually kind of pressuring but the thing and so Brent [TS]

00:07:03   Simmons was in the same boat and I will return to this is one of the reasons I'm [TS]

00:07:07   so interested by over cases they do see some fair number of similarities [TS]

00:07:11   situation lies with Vesper InDesign lies even but one of the things was that [TS]

00:07:18   brent has built large-scale online things you know there's no news wire [TS]

00:07:23   sinking some of the other stuff we did in NewsGator so I felt really good being [TS]

00:07:28   you know having nothing to do with writing the code betting on Brent [TS]

00:07:33   Simmons and it did work out we had a great launch the sink wall and find that [TS]

00:07:36   I would have been just as happy betting on you know overcast and Marco Arment [TS]

00:07:41   having a good thing has experienced really matters but on the other hand [TS]

00:07:45   them you know had a couple of these things in mind especially for online [TS]

00:07:51   stuff every couple years the state of the art changes and there's little [TS]

00:07:54   things that are new and different right it didn't used to be that you could go [TS]

00:07:57   to lie note and say you know what give me a couple of extra database servers [TS]

00:08:02   you couldn't do it right and so in in large part I think the reason by both [TS]

00:08:08   launches one while those things work really well but you never know cos it [TS]

00:08:12   might be something there might be something that you overlook its that's [TS]

00:08:15   what bugs are bugs are always things that you overlook and you can say here's [TS]

00:08:20   all here's the seven things that have been me before scaling gonna make sure [TS]

00:08:23   all seven of these i've handled well there may be in new one in eight one [TS]

00:08:27   that you don't know [TS]

00:08:28   and then all of a sudden you've got a big launch of this website to writing [TS]

00:08:32   about you are on the front page of this website that website all sorts of [TS]

00:08:36   Twitter's going not people talking about it and your server is down and you know [TS]

00:08:43   you probably would be much less happy market and you know because the [TS]

00:08:48   difference like I mean I I did a bad test with about 40 people for about two [TS]

00:08:52   months and forty people at Apple has not as far as I know rolled out that new [TS]

00:08:56   testing thing that they may testify them to know so you're still up to 200 device [TS]

00:09:00   lots so forty people if you want to leave any room for anyone to get new [TS]

00:09:03   phones in the fall or anyone to have an iPad that's about as big of a group of [TS]

00:09:07   you can do and you know i i this is the biggest bad I've ever done by a long [TS]

00:09:12   shot but long as I've ever done and the beta uncut didn't cover tons of issues [TS]

00:09:17   and in which I'm very thankful for and yet their worst there are still bugs [TS]

00:09:22   that none of us found because the difference between forty people and you [TS]

00:09:27   know thirty thousand people is substantial and at the end of the forty [TS]

00:09:33   you know we were mostly it was mostly people I know I like you and you like [TS]

00:09:37   tech people so it wasn't a very diverse group and so certain things like we just [TS]

00:09:41   never ran into because that isn't how we use the podcast app you know where I was [TS]

00:09:45   a lot of people do worms that part of the problem of I'd love to hear an [TS]

00:09:50   engine that could like if there's already like frequently run into sharp [TS]

00:09:58   edge or something like that what do you think what do you think the average [TS]

00:10:02   number of podcasts is that somebody subscribes to 30 you know obviously [TS]

00:10:12   right so I don't I don't have that number available for overcast yet [TS]

00:10:17   however I have heard from many people apparently my OPML importer is having [TS]

00:10:23   problems for people who have OPML file have a hundred feet and there's a lot of [TS]

00:10:29   these people [TS]

00:10:30   I like I listen to my my field list is about 35 or 40 long as a lot of those [TS]

00:10:37   are shows at that are retired or on hiatus for a lot of them are shows that [TS]

00:10:41   I like I had one episode of the whole show and they still haven't deleted them [TS]

00:10:46   and so you get the number of a podcast I listen to actively that you know that [TS]

00:10:52   new episodes every week is probably about 10 maybe and that I consider [TS]

00:10:57   myself a heavy podcast listener but compared to the general public like [TS]

00:11:03   there are these edge cases out there there are these people who listen to [TS]

00:11:06   over a hundred one guy complained that his head over a hundred and fifty I [TS]

00:11:09   couldn't import it properly and I just never considered and that also that also [TS]

00:11:16   creates problems you know the my the problem is that there's no way to [TS]

00:11:21   specify episodes you can only say which podcast you subscribe to it in other [TS]

00:11:26   ways in other words it's the URL of the podcast feed not the URL of the episode [TS]

00:11:33   correct and that's it and so it it the OPF standard cannot communicate to be [TS]

00:11:38   between apps but you know whether you've heard all the episodes are not which [TS]

00:11:41   ones are unplayed how far you've gotten in them [TS]

00:11:44   it only knows which podcasts you subscribe to period that's it that's to [TS]

00:11:49   be pedantic here or fill in for a circus that's not really a limit of OPML [TS]

00:11:54   General Assembly vote him out is a general-purpose outliner file format [TS]

00:11:59   it's it's the specific flavor of OPML that is widely understood as the lingua [TS]

00:12:05   franca franca franca of sharing of sharing a list of feeds you subscribe to [TS]

00:12:14   and that's right it's true for RSS readers to examine format and actually a [TS]

00:12:19   very good reason why nobody's implemented episode exporting importing [TS]

00:12:24   its mostly because there is no good way to uniquely identify the episodes I [TS]

00:12:30   would amount because GUI did not required in the standards so so there's [TS]

00:12:35   a lot of feed that did you ideas wrong anyway and some fields that you couldn't [TS]

00:12:40   even use the URL for the audio file [TS]

00:12:42   because there's some aren't there some shows where they'll give it and put two [TS]

00:12:46   in a no-sail a here's here's to the format mp3 and m4a oh yeah is even still [TS]

00:12:51   some people who put in Ogg Vorbis and there's there's a new format cog opus I [TS]

00:12:55   think I didn't even hear of until yesterday I i dont have popularity is [TS]

00:13:00   but just to give you that I think that tells you how popular improbable but the [TS]

00:13:06   end so that there's now dealing with broken feeds you know feat that have [TS]

00:13:11   clearly broken mark-up but you know that people are angry about that I don't [TS]

00:13:16   support and so I have to figure how to support them and it's a mess but anyway [TS]

00:13:19   so the one of the biggest complaints I've gotten it from people who subscribe [TS]

00:13:23   to a lot of shows might might default behavior when importing the PMO is I [TS]

00:13:29   will assume that you want the one most recent episode in every one of the [TS]

00:13:33   sweetest that is a bad assumption and so when you have a hundred and fifty feeds [TS]

00:13:40   I try to immediately down 150 episodes and people are complaining that I'm [TS]

00:13:45   filling up their phones all of a sudden they have three gigs a podcast and [TS]

00:13:48   litter after import and and i dont have like a bolt cancel operation and again [TS]

00:13:54   this is something that that is a valid problem I didn't think of it it never [TS]

00:13:59   came I have to figure out some good way to solve that now but that is very much [TS]

00:14:04   about problem yeah and I'm I was a bad tester for that because I don't keep [TS]

00:14:10   like an archive of old shows I don't want i don't have a subscription to [TS]

00:14:16   hypercritical anymore just because I want to go back and listen to if I do it [TS]

00:14:21   might strike me and my fancy someday I but then I would I wouldn't think I want [TS]

00:14:24   to have a subscription to it I would think I'm gonna directory find it funny [TS]

00:14:29   episode 01 and play and then write it there I would never think I wanna even I [TS]

00:14:35   understand the mindset that someone would want to do that here is the [TS]

00:14:37   hundred and fifty podcast I've ever been interested in and i wanna move this file [TS]

00:14:41   around from app to app my mind that that seems crazy to me a new I kinda like the [TS]

00:14:47   idea of switching and trying a new podcast app every once in a while just [TS]

00:14:50   to start clean [TS]

00:14:52   and say Jeremy find two or three shows only listen to have got a long drive [TS]

00:14:56   ahead of me right I think it's easier because you despite those outliers [TS]

00:15:00   RSS has always had that problem we're usually people listen to their people [TS]

00:15:05   subscribe to usually a pretty good number of RSS feeds if they use it at [TS]

00:15:08   all like i subscribe for probably two hundred RSS feeds and again most of them [TS]

00:15:12   done it every day so it's easy to follow but podcast you know there's there's a [TS]

00:15:18   limit on how many podcasts you can listen to on a regular basis and so I [TS]

00:15:22   always assume the numbers would be substantially lower for your number of [TS]

00:15:25   podcast feeds that most people described you I assume that would be a very low [TS]

00:15:28   number and it turns out not necessarily say so what what they want is they want [TS]

00:15:35   to be able to maybe even default 20 downloads per podcast and then go [TS]

00:15:40   through and and change it from there [TS]

00:15:44   right and I think honestly I mean a safe default might be easier and just just [TS]

00:15:49   make people pick one from everything you know I think my assumption that you want [TS]

00:15:53   the latest one from everything is probably problematic enough that I [TS]

00:15:57   should probably change it would I can change that one service I'd maybe that's [TS]

00:15:59   a good one that you'd want to do if I hadn't just a single new subscription in [TS]

00:16:04   the app maybe assume I want to get the most recent episode but if I'm importing [TS]

00:16:08   an OPML file don't assume I want any the episode [TS]

00:16:12   yeah that's that is certainly well actually no I think I think my default [TS]

00:16:16   behavior now is that if you tap subscriber new showdown with the latest [TS]

00:16:20   episode [TS]

00:16:21   directory which i think is a safe assumption but I think you're right with [TS]

00:16:25   ok I think I think it doesn't say I think maybe I'll change that later [TS]

00:16:28   tonight after that leads directly to another question pad and i've seen it [TS]

00:16:36   and I'm not even following [TS]

00:16:38   nearly as religious as I'm sure you are on Twitter the day one [TS]

00:16:42   commentary about it but I've seen a lot of people remark about the lack of [TS]

00:16:46   streaming yes that that is a big one and I again I never really noticed I guess I [TS]

00:16:55   have because I guess there have been times I've been trying to to run on a [TS]

00:17:01   more regular basis and that one of the times right do listen to podcasts and [TS]

00:17:05   it'll be like hey I know theres gotta be a new ATP out let me go look and there [TS]

00:17:14   it is and I do I have to wait until I get the whole thing before I go out but [TS]

00:17:17   i dont no way that that it would ever even have occurred to me added you know [TS]

00:17:23   right in as a suggestion that I would like to just leave the house and have it [TS]

00:17:26   stream over LTE or something like that is it doesn't take that long for you [TS]

00:17:30   know hundred-and-some megabyte file but it seemed like a lot of people want that [TS]

00:17:36   what they want is they wanted to start downloading and playing at the same time [TS]

00:17:42   oh yeah and and streaming it's you know it isn't there because it's it's hard to [TS]

00:17:46   do and I didn't have time to do it and it's going to take months to do it right [TS]

00:17:49   that's why it's not there a lot of people assume that I just forgot to add [TS]

00:17:53   it just some oversight just got a check box that's what I figured the answer is [TS]

00:18:01   the answer is that it's not like a lot of these things it's not easy it's [TS]

00:18:05   really hard and and it's harder for me because of my audio engine like it's [TS]

00:18:09   it's easier for the other players that don't use the low level stuff that I do [TS]

00:18:13   to do my audio effects it easier for them but it's a lot easier for them the [TS]

00:18:17   way I'm going to do it is going to be more manual going to build more those [TS]

00:18:21   parts from scratch but the main argument for it then first of all I think the [TS]

00:18:26   need for it is exaggerated on day one because so many people want to just jump [TS]

00:18:32   in and try and try playing it and have to wait for the files to download [TS]

00:18:35   whereas if you just use the app regularly most new episodes will get we [TS]

00:18:40   push to you in the background and you won't even notice them downloading but I [TS]

00:18:43   mean you launch the app next they're just there so you know background [TS]

00:18:46   download it removes much of the need but there are still situations where you [TS]

00:18:50   need [TS]

00:18:51   where she is very nice to have the big to our immediate feedback like if you [TS]

00:18:57   just want to add a neighborhood listen to it right now like right as you add it [TS]

00:19:01   then you wanna hear it you guys are playing immediately and in the second [TS]

00:19:04   big one is if you like a lot of the client's offer a streaming only mode [TS]

00:19:09   where nothing is ever downloaded you only ever stream things and that way you [TS]

00:19:14   don't use any disk space to know that they would never even occurred and it's [TS]

00:19:18   it's a really good idea and like 80 if you think about you know for me I would [TS]

00:19:22   never use it because you know I have I live in an area that has spotty [TS]

00:19:25   reception and I often travel and go upstate on a plane or something and so i [TS]

00:19:30   i I want everything to be just downloaded in there and ready but a lot [TS]

00:19:35   of people don't work that way a lot of people want everything to always only be [TS]

00:19:39   streamed and we all the space you on the phone and we'll see what happens like [TS]

00:19:43   with iOS aid with the new photo management thing you know maybe maybe [TS]

00:19:48   there won't be as much of a space crunch on iOS devices as there used to be who [TS]

00:19:52   knows but either way I am gonna answer me it's just a matter of doing it will [TS]

00:19:57   probably take a few months yeah it seems like there's that's actually sort of [TS]

00:20:01   under the radar like one of the priorities of Iowa State is space [TS]

00:20:08   management because they're doing it too similar thing they're doing with [TS]

00:20:11   messages where exact its defaulting to not keeping the images and other [TS]

00:20:19   attachments that you've been sent and I think part of that is a sort of trend [TS]

00:20:25   towards privacy in general and you know things like snapchat stuff like that [TS]

00:20:30   where it works like that and people seem to like it and maybe it just never heard [TS]

00:20:33   of them before but I think another big part of it is that you know even for me [TS]

00:20:37   it's not like a super heavy texture but Wisconsin I communicate a lot about [TS]

00:20:42   Vesper I've got tons of screenshots and my messages with him if I look in the [TS]

00:20:48   usage I do have a couple of gigabytes for 4 for 5 gigabytes in messages and [TS]

00:20:55   there's no way to get them to get them out I mean I think go through one by one [TS]

00:20:59   that way lies madness right where you can delete the entire conversation with [TS]

00:21:04   Dave whiskers and lose that entire history yeah I don't want to do and and [TS]

00:21:09   also the way the weird way I messaged works where I've actually got like seven [TS]

00:21:13   conversations with whiskas enough they're basing his phone number to my [TS]

00:21:19   Apple I D my Apple iTV has Apple I D I don't know quite how that counts but [TS]

00:21:24   everyone to know that would be less I would probably easier to delete 7 [TS]

00:21:27   conversations with them but but who knows how much of those gigabyte is all [TS]

00:21:33   sorts of other people too and I got to keep deleting all those I don't know one [TS]

00:21:36   thing I don't know and I would love to know the answer to maybe somebody who's [TS]

00:21:39   upgraded their regular found Iowa State basis would know whether that applies to [TS]

00:21:44   your old messages like if you upgrade your phone to Iowa see all that that new [TS]

00:21:50   world only apply to new messages as they come in are we going to do something [TS]

00:21:55   smart about your archive of all damages that's a tough one because you certainly [TS]

00:22:01   you can see that the other problem is like you know if if they just default to [TS]

00:22:05   all right we're gonna stop keeping all of stuff by default that is used to [TS]

00:22:10   upgrade to iOS 80 year old messages got deleted and that's so I can see the [TS]

00:22:16   problem the right it's one thing if new messages start coming in with that [TS]

00:22:21   little keep button and you you know even if you don't quite notice it right away [TS]

00:22:24   well it was there and you have had the opportunity to press keep it's another [TS]

00:22:28   thing to say all those messages you got over the last three years that you never [TS]

00:22:33   even had to worry about whether they were gonna be kept or not you've kept me [TS]

00:22:37   to be did you a favor and delete it right i mean i think what would probably [TS]

00:22:41   make more sense would be to treat those attachments just like entries in your [TS]

00:22:47   photos library where [TS]

00:22:49   they are all kept on iCloud and then they can just be pulled down to manage [TS]

00:22:53   you a few actually scroll up and go like you know three years back in history [TS]

00:22:56   they can be put off the off the network that would make that makes a lot of [TS]

00:23:00   sense having use your storage but unfortunately with some people that [TS]

00:23:02   might use a ton of storage the average of just about to send the problem is [TS]

00:23:06   that it for a lot of people a couple of gigs of my message images is probably [TS]

00:23:11   pretty close to the number of gigs at a nightclub storage right exactly and is [TS]

00:23:17   also a lot of duplication I think like like if you send a picture to somebody [TS]

00:23:21   to you now have two copies that here storage but the one in your camera roll [TS]

00:23:26   in the one you sent them I don't know how that works [TS]

00:23:28   yeah I do think that question i think you might as it might also I don't even [TS]

00:23:37   know I never checked whether they like it or anything and nothing to do but i [TS]

00:23:43   dont have to be questioned and when you do get a copy like when you definitely [TS]

00:23:47   gotta do when you take the photo with your phone and then you switch to your [TS]

00:23:52   iPad or your Mac or something and the conversation is over there to that's [TS]

00:23:56   obviously a copy right exactly I don't know good question obviously something [TS]

00:24:03   you have to concern yourself about the that's one area where you know overcast [TS]

00:24:08   I think it's in a unique situation where you know you some some users might [TS]

00:24:15   reasonably one overcast to literally take up a majority of the stored on your [TS]

00:24:20   device you know somebody with us 64 gigabyte iPhone my might actually want a [TS]

00:24:25   podcast app that stories about 40 gigabytes of podcasts radio especially [TS]

00:24:31   if you're going on a trip or something and you're gonna be without coverage [TS]

00:24:34   you're going international you know I use data roaming or you or you're just [TS]

00:24:37   going out for a while and you're in a country where cell coverage of Aircel [TS]

00:24:41   data is very expensive [TS]

00:24:43   you know either way you know there are so many reasons why you want it [TS]

00:24:47   downloaded and why you wanted to be taking up space in your phone rather [TS]

00:24:51   than requiring it to be streamed constantly but the other side of that is [TS]

00:24:55   probably just as frequently as you have a 16 gig device and its full and you [TS]

00:25:00   want to do what's podcast and you have no space [TS]

00:25:02   that sucks and so I can see both sides of the argument but there's also a [TS]

00:25:08   problem in having the app offers a very healthy blend of those two things cause [TS]

00:25:14   then everything becomes way more complicated both the postal code and the [TS]

00:25:18   interface then you have to manage these states and offer ways for people to like [TS]

00:25:22   Transformers stream into a download or you know delete something believe it [TS]

00:25:26   streamable and all these things that really complicate the interface and and [TS]

00:25:30   the data model and then and even the mental model of the user as 22 no do I [TS]

00:25:35   have this thing or not that's why I'm trying to keep it very simple so that [TS]

00:25:40   people can can know what what's happening they can know what they have [TS]

00:25:44   been looking at it they can see if they can tell ok I have thus far and they can [TS]

00:25:48   be kind of assured of that and they can depend on that you know but it's it's [TS]

00:25:53   hard this and this is my podcast episode challenging to make I think because it's [TS]

00:25:57   one of those categories like to do lists where like it seems simple at first and [TS]

00:26:00   then you start getting requests from people saying wait a minute there is not [TS]

00:26:05   only is there no way to satisfy all of them a change you make it going to [TS]

00:26:09   satisfy this group but angered the other group but also that the problem space is [TS]

00:26:15   so complicated of what somebody might want to know exactly how do I want it [TS]

00:26:19   that there is infinite potential for improvement for every person no one has [TS]

00:26:25   ever hunted percent satisfied with the podcast everyone's always like sixty [TS]

00:26:30   percent satisfied and I you know so I made one that satisfies my sixty percent [TS]

00:26:35   I'm very happy with it but it's it's never gonna kill everyone and it's not [TS]

00:26:42   even close I think that's another one of the broad areas racy it is similar to [TS]

00:26:46   Vesper and there's a ton of no taps and writing one that ships with the system [TS]

00:26:53   from Apple that's not horrible you know and it is there you know it's it's [TS]

00:27:00   at least you know and one of the things I like about it at least you see where I [TS]

00:27:04   was coming from with that so you don't have to worry like it more worrisome of [TS]

00:27:07   Apple doesn't happen happen your category right like when you're always [TS]

00:27:12   wondering like either why isn't there an app my category to category suck that [TS]

00:27:16   badly and what will happen if they make one then they'll crush us all you know [TS]

00:27:21   and even if it ends up not being crushing it's it's stressful like you [TS]

00:27:25   must have gone through that with the real story hearing about it before it [TS]

00:27:30   comes out then they announced it and then you have to wear while popular is [TS]

00:27:33   going to be it's coming out and three months when the betas over and it's [TS]

00:27:39   stressful I mean I you know it's better to know that wow here's a podcast app [TS]

00:27:44   and here's all the reasons I don't like it and I know that there's a lot of [TS]

00:27:47   other people who don't like it and they're probably not going to wipe it [TS]

00:27:52   out and start over I don't think well and there are things about Apple's [TS]

00:27:57   podcast that are the way they are because that's how Apple does things or [TS]

00:28:02   because their strategies tax in place like there's there's a certain amount of [TS]

00:28:06   of cloudiness in the app that is entirely because it has to use the [TS]

00:28:12   iTunes podcast directory and it has to be tied so so firmly to that and so like [TS]

00:28:19   they can't do anything that that like breaks that it has to cater to a casual [TS]

00:28:24   I don't even know I don't even know what a podcast is yet [TS]

00:28:27   person in certain ways and it also has to cater to every territory in the world [TS]

00:28:32   every language in the world every genre of podcasts in the world and it and like [TS]

00:28:40   you know think about like whenever the podcast app team wants to get something [TS]

00:28:44   changed or improved about the API to the store how likely is that to really [TS]

00:28:49   happen you know like inside Apple's iTunes Store team has enough to do you [TS]

00:28:55   think if the podcast team with the podcast app on iOS team makes a request [TS]

00:28:59   how higher priority is that really to the to the iTunes Store team that's the [TS]

00:29:03   other stuff to do with you know the more high-profile things like the App Store [TS]

00:29:08   and the music store and so the Apple podcast episode is going to be limited [TS]

00:29:13   by that bus [TS]

00:29:14   its limited by Apple's like 80% strategy you know they're they're never going to [TS]

00:29:18   do [TS]

00:29:19   features that are as nerdy as like my playlist liked the way I do playlist is [TS]

00:29:24   so crazy with all these filters and everything and it's it's a it's a [TS]

00:29:28   playlist system for nerds and apples never gonna do one like that because [TS]

00:29:32   that's not the way to do things [TS]

00:29:33   yeah I don't think so either and in fact it might even might even be problematic [TS]

00:29:39   for them in the way that their podcast app for iOS is like this weird [TS]

00:29:46   relationship with iTunes on Mac and Windows which is where you let you know [TS]

00:29:51   Apple solution for hey listen to podcasts on your Mac or PC where [TS]

00:29:56   playlist has a very different word I mean maybe they could just add I guess [TS]

00:30:01   they could maybe piggyback on playlists they include audio file you know regular [TS]

00:30:05   audio files from the library or whatever but that hasn't turned into more of a [TS]

00:30:08   mess in my mind right and that's why I like when the Apple click the Apple [TS]

00:30:13   podcast have added something completely caught channels which is basically a [TS]

00:30:16   smart playlists to it you can just select like it's like which feeds go [TS]

00:30:20   into this and that your playlists and add that's the podcast I think the [TS]

00:30:24   reason they had to call channels [TS]

00:30:26   something else in the United I never thought about that I was always confused [TS]

00:30:30   to tell by their channels I thought their channels were little bit more like [TS]

00:30:34   categories in the store and i think thats why I found it so confusing is [TS]

00:30:39   that they're not really categories in the store they are probably more like it [TS]

00:30:43   would make more sense to me if they call him channels and then print the US Smart [TS]

00:30:48   Playlist they're smart player for broadcast it has there ever been [TS]

00:30:52   anything in the history of technology after the television where the word [TS]

00:30:58   channels was used for something that being a success [TS]

00:31:01   that's an excellent question cuz it's been using a buncha like half assed [TS]

00:31:05   terrible things like the windows 98 channels bar and Active Desktop anybody [TS]

00:31:10   who listen to the show actually members that you don't see where I'm at perceive [TS]

00:31:13   that was very lucky [TS]

00:31:16   imagine imagine Microsoft at its worst at a time when complain PC hardware was [TS]

00:31:22   at its worst where would the software was trying to do way too much [TS]

00:31:28   web technologies were brand new and this is a Microsoft tried to integrate ie [TS]

00:31:32   into the desktop to the desktop is basically a giant web you on hardware [TS]

00:31:37   that was like a pentium ninety with 16 megs of RAM like it was a it was an [TS]

00:31:44   awful time to be a PC user and there are many awful time to be PC user but I [TS]

00:31:48   think like 1997 was a particularly awful bad for being a Mac user to their point [TS]

00:31:56   just a bad year computers as Steve Jobs call it in the interview in the [TS]

00:32:00   interview with cringely a dark ages of computing [TS]

00:32:03   exactly where he was not that far off about that is bad for everybody you know [TS]

00:32:07   next had like three developers like really cool system in like six apps and [TS]

00:32:13   they weren't super expensive [TS]

00:32:15   the machine that could run it may be by 97 I guess they ran on PCs it was no [TS]

00:32:21   next step are opened up but like no market whatsoever [TS]

00:32:26   max word part of a company that was dying and had no no no real operating [TS]

00:32:33   system no modern operating system and then mike was so powerful Windows 98 [TS]

00:32:42   given to all of their worst impulses so bad it was so so bad and the internet [TS]

00:32:49   was there was so new 897 that ever was like the most use application on your [TS]

00:32:55   computer started to become the web browser but web browsers were so bad and [TS]

00:32:59   the harbour so primitive and that there was no RAM so just 1997 just sounds like [TS]

00:33:03   hard drives grinding as everything just swamps constantly that's that's the [TS]

00:33:07   entire year just swapping for a year and waiting for dialogue yes but that's it [TS]

00:33:15   things that you just could not imagine explaining to your kids today would be [TS]

00:33:22   the dialog dialog is impossible you can't explain slow internet but directly [TS]

00:33:27   so much as I remember being I can remember when I eventually I think we [TS]

00:33:34   eventually eventually broke down and bought a second phone line got a second [TS]

00:33:37   number just for internet but I remember it just you know and I understand this [TS]

00:33:43   stuff and I was able to set up a thing prob a blank on the software but it was [TS]

00:33:49   by a great IndyMac developer named Peter Siddle take a moment and he had this [TS]

00:33:57   great Mac utility that would let you share a dialogue with multiple Macs on [TS]

00:34:03   your local network so both get on the internet at the same time and she could [TS]

00:34:08   just she didn't have the modem modem hooked up to my machine she could just [TS]

00:34:11   get on the internet go check email and then you know weight than 90 seconds for [TS]

00:34:17   the whole thing but then she'd have internet just one modem shared between [TS]

00:34:20   us and we could both be on at the same time was unhurt a game-changer was [TS]

00:34:26   awesome [TS]

00:34:27   this is where I need I need the forum that you guys have the live audience [TS]

00:34:32   somebody would I don't know this is pretty obscure but I just feel like [TS]

00:34:39   Peter Siddle as ice Cheal sustainable Softworks and you see what I don't [TS]

00:34:45   remember the name of it but I'll give you a you give a shout out to it he [TS]

00:34:49   still got a URL such works as you as he works dot com nice to have to I we only [TS]

00:34:57   had one for my house I was I was like in 7th grade and in 1997 so the different [TS]

00:35:03   couldn't buy a new phone will have one phone line and my mom had a lot of [TS]

00:35:07   friends call her time and and so I was not allowed to disable call waiting [TS]

00:35:14   I had to end it wasn't external modem so anybody yeah I had I had to listen I had [TS]

00:35:22   to leave the [TS]

00:35:22   you could you could figure the modem and its string to leave the speaker on all [TS]

00:35:26   the time is at a turning off after connects so the whole time just [TS]

00:35:30   listening to static like and you could hear it call waiting came in and I had [TS]

00:35:37   listened for that and if I heard a beep the modem also hang up immediately and [TS]

00:35:41   let the phone ring and pick it up and you know then just not be on the [TS]

00:35:44   internet for the next 20 minutes during the phone call I've got it here its IP [TS]

00:35:49   network router to complete IP router and firewall solution including a built-in [TS]

00:35:53   DHCP server not with inbound port mapping and IP filtering to set up your [TS]

00:35:58   own firewall thing cost like 40 bucks here is a common forms are so is 89 [TS]

00:36:04   bucks it was a steal it was 89 bucks and you had superpowers but now I'm pretty [TS]

00:36:12   advanced functionality and like a pretty men's network stack for that time well [TS]

00:36:16   that was it was built on I'm going way out of weed here but Mac OS 94 as crazy [TS]

00:36:24   convoluted you know terrible bag of wires it wasn't some areas under the [TS]

00:36:30   hood had some amazing stuff he was called Open Transport was the networking [TS]

00:36:35   stack so he didn't necessarily write the whole networking stack all the way to [TS]

00:36:39   the bottom it was built on open transport but his stuff is almost like [TS]

00:36:43   like the flagship of wide-open transport was great and why a lot of Mac [TS]

00:36:50   developers were beside themselves when Pakistan you next working forget that [TS]

00:37:02   there's a whole controversy in that you know they're all these many thousands of [TS]

00:37:06   these little me convert controversies between classic the which parts of the [TS]

00:37:11   classic Mac OS would stand which pad parts of next upwards day and that was [TS]

00:37:15   one of them I can't feel very lucky that I didn't even come to the Mac until 10 4 [TS]

00:37:22   in 2004 I and I bought aluminum PowerBook so I didn't come to the Mac [TS]

00:37:29   until it was awesome that's actually a good point but it's like somebody coming [TS]

00:37:34   to the iPhone with [TS]

00:37:34   us know your views miss this whole history of like a little bit rough [TS]

00:37:39   patches here and there was way easier being a macro in the nineties had there [TS]

00:37:44   were a couple of years in there where it was and it really do is the early years [TS]

00:37:49   of during fireball exactly around 2002 2003 but when I started but maybe even [TS]

00:37:55   count 2001 where Mac OS nine was have awesome in half [TS]

00:38:02   terrible and Pakistan was half Terrebonne have awesome and you know [TS]

00:38:07   maybe those percentages route sixty forty 40 60 and then they got 55 an 8th [TS]

00:38:11   you know they shifted over time but it took years for Mac OS 10 to really be [TS]

00:38:16   overwhelmingly yeah you know what I just want to use it all the time [TS]

00:38:20   clearly and so switching I remember for a while I had two machines at my desk I [TS]

00:38:27   don't forget where I was running Mac OS town was a PowerBook running Mac OS 10 [TS]

00:38:31   and old really old Power Mac running Mac OS 9 any older machine running Mac OS [TS]

00:38:39   nine of course beltway faster oh yeah is doing way let's yeah I mean a Microsoft [TS]

00:38:44   to their credit like the nineties that they had a similar scale of transit well [TS]

00:38:49   not so much that they had a much easier transition but it was still pretty [TS]

00:38:51   substantial transition between the Windows 95 98 any kernel and the [TS]

00:38:57   anti-crime that put that power 2000 and XP and everything after XP and that I [TS]

00:39:02   was I was using it heavily during that transition and I was like I will be [TS]

00:39:06   using that the beta of Windows 2000 and it was way more stable than 98 yea even [TS]

00:39:12   though the very first beta of it in late February 1989 was way way more stable [TS]

00:39:17   than Windows 98 and but you know it was easier back then to go through that [TS]

00:39:23   transition because Microsoft Office always mediocre like it was to give it [TS]

00:39:27   to their credit they were consistent [TS]

00:39:30   applets and it sounds like they would have some some amazing times then some [TS]

00:39:33   terrible times whereas Microsoft was always impressively mediocre it was like [TS]

00:39:37   you could counter the mediocrity it was it was the Starbucks and McDonald's of [TS]

00:39:40   of computer operating systems and I would argue probably still is [TS]

00:39:45   and it's actually kind of valuable for other people to know what you're going [TS]

00:39:48   to get its dependable and the transition from 98 to 2000 was not that bad unless [TS]

00:39:59   you had to scan and print anything and there were no drivers but besides that [TS]

00:40:01   if you if you didn't have to scatter print it was actually really easy [TS]

00:40:06   transition yeah I think that was the basic idea of other than go to Mt even [TS]

00:40:09   earlier cos I even I actually had to use Windows in some ways I can college when [TS]

00:40:14   I had jobs and stuff where people used the first time I saw windows and T I [TS]

00:40:21   don't know the version number was but it was before 2020 443 I think it's a [TS]

00:40:27   number that has a number two to match Windows 324 a believer was 94 2025 and [TS]

00:40:35   it doesn't matter and I remember asking like the guys you know a lot more into [TS]

00:40:40   the PC side of why is everybody using this is actually like you know it's [TS]

00:40:45   still ugh yeah that was it was it [TS]

00:40:47   95 was 2094 was the one that that looks like wood 9574 that i've seen [TS]

00:40:55   and use it had some experience with I was like this is you know I still think [TS]

00:40:58   it's kind of gross design wise but technically this is so far superior why [TS]

00:41:02   isn't everybody's in this and then they were like there's no drivers for it I [TS]

00:41:06   was like what does she say there's an easy way to solve this shouldn't [TS]

00:41:09   everybody just switch to this and then everybody will read drivers for it i [TS]

00:41:15   mean transitions are hard I know it's not but it just seems crazy to me that [TS]

00:41:17   they were in active development for so many years and the PC road is I mean I [TS]

00:41:22   don't know it's probably better now I'm not sure I have been out of it too long [TS]

00:41:25   but you actually couldn't count on the drivers for almost anything like if you [TS]

00:41:29   upgraded your version of Windows you would probably almost certainly would [TS]

00:41:34   have to get a new scanner at least like some of your hardware would just stop [TS]

00:41:37   working reliably or at all because they wouldn't have any driver or they would [TS]

00:41:42   put out a new beta driver then go out of business or something [TS]

00:41:45   scanners and printers were some of the worst and I like it like the more [TS]

00:41:51   specialized your hardware peripherals were the worst they would be like I had [TS]

00:41:57   a [TS]

00:41:57   gamepads I wanted to play emulators about these gamepads and they were [TS]

00:42:03   always the absolute worst and so you could almost be sure that any any [TS]

00:42:07   hardware anytime you upgrade your Windows OS you have to also spend maybe [TS]

00:42:12   200 bucks upgrading some of your hardware because just just because [TS]

00:42:16   drivers you get you have to replace perfectly working hard we're just [TS]

00:42:19   because there wouldn't be drivers anymore or they wouldn't be workable [TS]

00:42:22   more crazy Days and and that's one of the reasons why Microsoft had to jump [TS]

00:42:27   through hoops for backward compatibility all that crap because that was the road [TS]

00:42:31   they were operating in that was like the hardware environment they're operating [TS]

00:42:34   and where they they couldn't just dictate to people you know whatever is [TS]

00:42:36   now using this so you have to catch up you know the way Apple does that today [TS]

00:42:39   Microsoft could not do that in in the nineties and I didn't even know they can [TS]

00:42:44   do it they probably still can't do it all right let me jump in here in a few [TS]

00:42:49   minutes of the show sponsored break and remind everybody about our good friends [TS]

00:42:54   at connected data makers of I'll transporter right I use this analogy [TS]

00:43:02   every time I talk about these guys it's like your own private Dropbox you buy [TS]

00:43:06   the device or you buy multiple devices they come to your house they have hard [TS]

00:43:11   drives in them or you look hard drives up to them [TS]

00:43:14   you put on your local network they're right there in your house and your [TS]

00:43:17   office wherever you want but they're in your control and install the software on [TS]

00:43:23   your Mac to get little folder on your Mac like Dropbox and it stinks and where [TS]

00:43:28   those files in the folder they are stored on your transporter device and [TS]

00:43:33   you can share between multiple people you can share between multiple devices [TS]

00:43:37   multiple places you can hold more than one of them up but the basic idea is you [TS]

00:43:42   have sync between computers through the cloud but not stored on servers in the [TS]

00:43:50   cloud their stored on devices that you own and control maybe that's just for [TS]

00:43:55   your own peace of mind because you're interested in the privacy implications [TS]

00:43:57   of that maybe it's because you have legal reasons that you actually can't [TS]

00:44:02   store things on devices that you don't control for hipper things like that [TS]

00:44:07   they have an iOS app and is it new fairly new iOS app for the iPhone and [TS]

00:44:12   iPad been updated as a prequel feature where does things like upload all your [TS]

00:44:17   photos and videos from your camera roll right to a special folder on transporter [TS]

00:44:21   for safekeeping so you want to it again if that's one of the things you really [TS]

00:44:26   wanna do is have a cloud-based effectively cloud-based backup [TS]

00:44:32   automatically if your photos so that if something happens to your phone [TS]

00:44:35   you know you've got them automatically somewhere else but you don't want that [TS]

00:44:40   somewhere else to be a server in california who knows where controlled by [TS]

00:44:46   some big corporation that might have the NSA tapping it or whatever [TS]

00:44:51   transporter can do that for you really great stuff if any of that kills you go [TS]

00:44:56   check them out where you go if you go to www.sedar.com filed transporter [TS]

00:45:06   store.com and have two deals for us to save 10% you can save up to 35 bucks on [TS]

00:45:13   any of the regular transporter models by using the code pts 10 the talk show 10 [TS]

00:45:20   pts 10 they have 500 gigabyte one terabyte to Parab terabyte capacities [TS]

00:45:26   save 10% big bucks or come on by the little things the little things like the [TS]

00:45:31   pockets of the transporters think same functionality but what you do with this [TS]

00:45:36   one instead of having a hard drive built into it you just hope any USB Drive up [TS]

00:45:41   to it so if you already have big USB driver couple of them sitting around you [TS]

00:45:45   can get a cheaper device smaller device and just hope your own drive up to it [TS]

00:45:49   you can save 20 bucks on one of those by using the code pts 10 TDS 22 wanna get [TS]

00:45:59   the little sink pts 10 if you wanna get the big regular transporter and anybody [TS]

00:46:05   who uses those codes gets free shipping check them out of file transporter [TS]

00:46:08   store.com [TS]

00:46:12   were we talking about we're talking about overcast for before the detour [TS]

00:46:16   into old Windows and Mac horrible days of the late nineties and using computers [TS]

00:46:20   I don't know how that happened I was terrible [TS]

00:46:23   entire computer industry was in middle school middle school always sucks for [TS]

00:46:27   everybody and it's not for the computer industry and that was it [TS]

00:46:30   that's a pretty good analogy it really was and the worst of your personality [TS]

00:46:34   comes out Apple AAPL win in this guy you know smoking pot thinking they're gonna [TS]

00:46:43   write a universal today that halogen thing with IBM like I Apple had had was [TS]

00:46:50   riding multiple operating systems that never actually came to exist there was [TS]

00:46:54   cope one and they did the whole Newton thing which was an affair wasn't a bus [TS]

00:47:00   but obviously you know wasn't hit and therefore didn't know they took their [TS]

00:47:05   eyes off the ball less that thing that was actually keeping the company around [TS]

00:47:08   they let it languish and then Microsoft man it's just really got bad but anyway [TS]

00:47:16   that's enough that I do think it's amusing that the biggest Apple news this [TS]

00:47:19   week is probably the IBM thing and you choose to have me on I am probably the [TS]

00:47:25   least qualified person in the world to comment on that in any fashion [TS]

00:47:29   whatsoever [TS]

00:47:30   next to me let's go let's save it let's go dead student who's at the end of the [TS]

00:47:34   week I had a couple more programming questions so bent on me that status when [TS]

00:47:40   I told me on the show he wanted to know how hard the audio programming was [TS]

00:47:44   because he said it sounds like it would be hard [TS]

00:47:47   sounds like it would be hard for him and knowing just some of the trickery that [TS]

00:47:52   you're implementing that it's even harder to question how hard was audio [TS]

00:47:57   programming and you had no background in audio programming before you get into [TS]

00:48:01   this cracked entirely true I I did a project in college where I was I was [TS]

00:48:06   trying to make a better lossless compression algorithm like flack and you [TS]

00:48:11   know those this kind of also owns my project in college failed because the [TS]

00:48:16   compression on that I wrote took like 10 hours to compress one file and the [TS]

00:48:20   resulting files actually larger than the input [TS]

00:48:23   so it was not a success [TS]

00:48:27   my idea for for how I can lastly compress them was not a good idea turns [TS]

00:48:32   out I reminder when I was in college and I was taking computer science courses is [TS]

00:48:38   mid nineties [TS]

00:48:42   9196 everybody was rating rate racers great racers warlike maybe there's still [TS]

00:48:49   a common thing but man I was nowhere near good enough to even try but I [TS]

00:48:53   remember that the kids I knew they were getting like like one frame a day I mean [TS]

00:49:01   this unbelievably slow and the district had no idea how to improve it and just [TS]

00:49:08   like despondent [TS]

00:49:11   it's so slow that we can't even figure out why it's slow when I was writing [TS]

00:49:15   this thing in 2003 about the same number of people cared then as now about [TS]

00:49:22   lossless audio encoding which was about five and I don't even use like I'm an [TS]

00:49:28   audio file I love high quality audio I have all sorts of ridiculous equipment [TS]

00:49:33   to listen to high quality audio but I don't even use lossless audio files even [TS]

00:49:38   if that is even make sense for me to have those giant files have been like a [TS]

00:49:43   256 k mp3 well encoded sounds just as good to me I can tell the difference [TS]

00:49:46   although it was it was ridiculous back anyway [TS]

00:49:51   compression in general though his heart whether it's lossy los list because [TS]

00:49:55   you're still focused on quality and mean you know even if you're writing lossy [TS]

00:50:00   compression you know JPEG or something like that you still don't say it's not [TS]

00:50:04   like you can disregard quality right and it's just mathematically it's just [TS]

00:50:09   really mind-bending I mean to me and these oh yeah I mean once you get past [TS]

00:50:14   very elementary forms of compression the Mets on that and it's all a very [TS]

00:50:19   complicated difficult to understand map that is far beyond my comprehension most [TS]

00:50:25   of the time or like I'm I understand the general concept but I certainly couldn't [TS]

00:50:29   implemented or do it myself a one on one level deeper [TS]

00:50:33   impression that anybody can understand it's like well if there's like WinZip [TS]

00:50:36   does yeah if there's there's sixteen ones in a row you could just write it [TS]

00:50:42   down a 1600 say that they're sixteen ones and that takes your space than this [TS]

00:50:45   sixteen actual ones [TS]

00:50:47   well guess what that does exactly that's that's called orally and that was in [TS]

00:50:53   Windows 3.1 you know fifteen twenty years ago he's very obvious repeated [TS]

00:50:58   patterns that works actually but that's that's why give has such wonderful [TS]

00:51:04   compression that Twitter reimplemented this is it before letting them see the [TS]

00:51:11   cat pictures are some people I don't have anybody doesn't know that Twitter [TS]

00:51:18   added quote unquote added support for animated gifs couple of weeks ago and [TS]

00:51:23   that somebody figured out that they're not actually animated gifs they're [TS]

00:51:26   sending out its 264 video and then I saw people who are upset about this and it's [TS]

00:51:32   like what there's a reason they did it [TS]

00:51:35   264 video files are like 10 times smaller than the gaps [TS]

00:51:40   I wrote that give processor and Tumblr it's dealing with gifts is a ridiculous [TS]

00:51:45   pain in the ass [TS]

00:51:46   it's a terrible format it for so many reasons and you know not least of which [TS]

00:51:52   is that it isn't very efficient compression but it for so many other [TS]

00:51:56   reasons like it has the fixed 206 color palette which is really limiting [TS]

00:52:02   soul-crushing [TS]

00:52:04   thats and those colors I don't think those clothes can change between frames [TS]

00:52:09   of an almost certain that I don't think so I don't think between friends so I [TS]

00:52:15   would be very surprised if that terrible format right back to the nineties you [TS]

00:52:23   know but there is that whole debate when when [TS]

00:52:25   started trying to enforce the patent don't give it was a patented and didn't [TS]

00:52:33   do anything with it and why they didn't do anything with it you know the world [TS]

00:52:36   the world wide web grew up with tons and tons of GIF files and then all of a [TS]

00:52:40   sudden somebody we have a patent on that it's a canonical example of of like a [TS]

00:52:50   submarine Yeah Yeah right why you should never trust a company that says hey yeah [TS]

00:52:58   I remember that the sub current of the whole argument about what we should [TS]

00:53:02   replace it with and what are we gonna do blah blah blah was doing all this to [TS]

00:53:06   replace an offer truly awful file format and you can find people who complain [TS]

00:53:11   about JPEG and that other other format at the time for photographs you know you [TS]

00:53:17   know the broad that jpg plays that there were better alternatives that they could [TS]

00:53:22   have been done better and certainly is but nobody really says jpg is terrible i [TS]

00:53:26   mean jpg jpeg jpg like it mp3 mp3 is a very old format it stands for MPEG 1 [TS]

00:53:39   layer 3 [TS]

00:53:40   like MPEG 1 files are I believe from the late eighties I mean it was a while [TS]

00:53:46   before they are commonplace but late eighties early nineties I believe it [TS]

00:53:49   when I pick one became a standard and became playable and like bad is when the [TS]

00:53:55   mp3 format like it's from that era jpg is not from that much later than that I [TS]

00:54:00   think it's also from the very early nineties and and it was a while before [TS]

00:54:04   it was you know fast enough the computers could display them very [TS]

00:54:08   quickly but now and there are better for me that there there was from JPEG 2000 [TS]

00:54:13   that no one ever uses and I believe there were some patent issues with it [TS]

00:54:17   which is one of the reasons why but you know jpg is good enough gift has a [TS]

00:54:22   horrible just horrible for billions get there and the estimates for how many GIF [TS]

00:54:28   files that were unlike the early internet but it was quickly went from [TS]

00:54:31   like hundreds to billions when they're back now I actually this is like our [TS]

00:54:35   bellbottoms moment [TS]

00:54:36   we're like it like this this this thing that was like a weird fad fifteen years [TS]

00:54:41   ago twenty years ago [TS]

00:54:43   fifteen years ago that thing that this thing was a weird fed back then now its [TS]

00:54:48   back and all of us who were around back then likewise aspect of this is terrible [TS]

00:54:52   it's the fashion has come back around [TS]

00:54:55   definitely definitely bellbottoms yeah but it's used in a way that is there's a [TS]

00:55:02   little bit of retro to it but a lot of tweezers not because the gifts that [TS]

00:55:06   people personalities huge animated ones with lots of frames from video and TV [TS]

00:55:10   and stuff like that are so humongous that computers in the mid nineties and [TS]

00:55:16   Internet connections in the mid-nineties couldn't even handle one of them like [TS]

00:55:20   three men's figure like imagine the concept of a three Meg gif in 1997 used [TS]

00:55:28   to try to make I forget the target for web pages but it you know a lot of times [TS]

00:55:33   viewed in part of your project specs for building web sites where what was the [TS]

00:55:37   target size for the web page and it was always measured in kilobytes you know [TS]

00:55:41   how many seconds but it takes a load over 56 K modem or somewhere between for [TS]

00:55:46   most projects I worked on it was used like 1020 kilobytes for the whole page [TS]

00:55:50   all asset right that would take a few seconds to load the actual question i [TS]

00:56:01   three megabyte give Milan the middle of the debate right i mean if if you even [TS]

00:56:07   look without something running out of memory crashing while decoding it is [TS]

00:56:10   unlikely but difficult even load it would take in 45 minutes to lip I also [TS]

00:56:15   think if I'm remembering correctly identified here I could be I could be my [TS]

00:56:20   rocker but I seem to recall that like early hosting account if you are hosting [TS]

00:56:28   a website somewhere like storage and bandwidth were measured in megabytes I [TS]

00:56:34   gotta know how many like you know you you couldn't serve up a couple hundred [TS]

00:56:39   copies of it three megabyte file [TS]

00:56:45   people just crap now for free service that all your privacy [TS]

00:56:51   all right back to audio programs he did have some experience and yeah and I i've [TS]

00:56:57   i've liked it here and there was a complete failure yet experience was [TS]

00:57:02   awful but yeah I got the basic concept of the samples and the frames and the [TS]

00:57:08   format and everything and i've i've always been an audio nerd so I was [TS]

00:57:13   always been familiar with editing audio in basic forms playing with it you know [TS]

00:57:19   I i've i've music and and talk radio has been very important to me and so I've [TS]

00:57:25   always kind of been in this anyway so the audio programming and overcast was [TS]

00:57:32   by far my favorite part and it was ridiculously hard but it was it was the [TS]

00:57:38   kind of good hard for a programmer which is like a with its very intellectually [TS]

00:57:42   stimulating and so it was it exactly what I love to do which is working at a [TS]

00:57:46   very low level C code doing stuff that you don't think we'll be possible to do [TS]

00:57:51   quickly and you know it's questionable whether it will run on an iPhone [TS]

00:57:56   reasonable speed and battery drain you know doing very little stuff like that [TS]

00:58:02   using things that you know try to make even more efficient try to take an even [TS]

00:58:04   better trick to get this way you know throw in some of the vector algorithms [TS]

00:58:07   and stuff like that that it was it was a very very fun part if that makes sense [TS]

00:58:14   and it wouldn't take that much time you know relative to the entire rest of the [TS]

00:58:20   app the audio engine it's it's actually easier in in many ways because it is [TS]

00:58:27   self-contained and and what it's doing it's a relatively simple task [TS]

00:58:31   attest it's easy to benchmark it's easy to find bugs and fix them where you can [TS]

00:58:38   if you compare that to like you I programming or sink logic to the server [TS]

00:58:42   like those things are much higher level code there's much more code to do that [TS]

00:58:48   sort of stuff in total for the whole app and it's much harder to test as always [TS]

00:58:54   all these weird edge cases you could really was [TS]

00:58:57   it isn't that way if you have a stream of numbers coming in and you had a [TS]

00:59:01   better three members and their some buffering she could take care of some [TS]

00:59:05   performances you can take care of it and you know some cases here there but it's [TS]

00:59:09   nowhere near the level of of like possibility complexity that programming [TS]

00:59:15   interface is I think it helps that you're an audio file in fact I don't [TS]

00:59:21   know that it would have worked that way otherwise cause I'm not I'm a complete [TS]

00:59:24   anti audiophile I just wanna hear I don't know I'm round I should die [TS]

00:59:29   because I do care about quality but my threshold for what sounds good [TS]

00:59:33   seems a lot lower than than people who you know who are really into headphones [TS]

00:59:38   and stuff like that like like my line up twenty pairs of headphones and I'm gonna [TS]

00:59:43   say there's a decent chance I might find that they are sound pretty good if you [TS]

00:59:48   know they're all costs 60 70 80 bucks or above and I would have a harder time [TS]

00:59:54   talking about the differences if I did hear a difference between the 2 I'd have [TS]

00:59:58   a harder time describing right right and I think that helps cause I would think [TS]

01:00:03   most people I wonder you know maybe you know this maybe you can even tell like [TS]

01:00:07   if I were gonna write a podcast app or are going to be part of a team knows [TS]

01:00:12   writing one my idea would be well why would just let the system had led iOS [TS]

01:00:16   handle the audio playback we get that there's a part we get for free [TS]

01:00:20   given the system and audio format that core idea knows how to play and then to [TS]

01:00:26   play it and we're not worried about that and then start from there and I think [TS]

01:00:32   that you know clearly that would rule out a whole bunch of the features that [TS]

01:00:36   are in overcast yeah I mean the biggest one like you can do voice boost using [TS]

01:00:43   the simpler API's it is not you can't do it very well but you can do it there's a [TS]

01:00:48   few little downside but most people would notice it be fine you definitely [TS]

01:00:53   cannot do smart speed in any reasonable approachable way and so I had to do this [TS]

01:01:00   if I wanted smart speed and it was an important feature for me that I said it [TS]

01:01:05   was worth it you know and and and the reality is just like the audio engine [TS]

01:01:10   was very very hard for about you know a few weeks or a month maybe and then it [TS]

01:01:15   was done in the rest of the app was was the rest of the development time I [TS]

01:01:19   haven't touched the audio processing code and months because it's just it's [TS]

01:01:23   finally I made it over the course of like I go every once in a while and make [TS]

01:01:27   a little tweak to like how some things done with their the levels or the EQ [TS]

01:01:31   stuff like that but for the most part it has barely changed in almost two years [TS]

01:01:37   since I wrote it so those are the two bike magic here just make this better [TS]

01:01:43   features in an overcast smart speed and voice boost and I i think of them as [TS]

01:01:50   their the audio equivalent of like that magic one thing in the photos out [TS]

01:01:54   exactly right and you say just make it better and a lot of times for me that [TS]

01:01:58   button makes the photo better and in every once in a while it doesn't and [TS]

01:02:02   then you can't happen again it goes away and just like that with podcast for you [TS]

01:02:06   can say turn on smart speed and if you think this is battered this is easier [TS]

01:02:10   way to listen to the show keep it on if not exactly and there are some shows [TS]

01:02:16   where one or both options like to make it sound worse and that's why there's [TS]

01:02:20   buttons for those incidents being on hold but I found the majority of show [TS]

01:02:25   that listen to the combination of both of them usually make it sound better [TS]

01:02:30   what was the deal that I remember this really interesting thread on the beta [TS]

01:02:33   Glassport about the names of those features and early on but the voice [TS]

01:02:42   voice boost had a different name right I think it's just a boost early on voice [TS]

01:02:49   boost was not on or off there were there were three modes to it there are four [TS]

01:02:55   modes there was off Martin prosecuting there was enhance and then boost and [TS]

01:03:02   also reduce yeah was was a mode that would actually cut off the spectrum on [TS]

01:03:07   the extreme highs and extreme low so it would like if somebody sometimes you [TS]

01:03:11   have a podcast where it's like way too much base and if you play it like in a [TS]

01:03:15   bathroom or something like it it sounds really echo in horrible and it's hard to [TS]

01:03:19   listen to [TS]

01:03:20   some of them also will leave in like very very high pitched wines as an [TS]

01:03:26   artifact of some part of their processing and added I never quite [TS]

01:03:29   figured out what causes that but some podcast will have that occasionally and [TS]

01:03:32   this has been true for years way before and so reduce mode would cut the ends [TS]

01:03:37   off and then enhance and boost both did the same thing just boost did it more [TS]

01:03:44   severely boost was a larger and so I had this this latter reduce costs enhance [TS]

01:03:51   boost and that was true for about half of the beta really always confused as [TS]

01:03:58   hell by the time I i kinda just wanted I really just wanted Marco just make it [TS]

01:04:04   sound better for me right and that was that was a common request actually end [TS]

01:04:09   and what I when I eventually found what I realize that even myself I was leaving [TS]

01:04:14   everything on boost on time but I wasn't using any of the other settings I [TS]

01:04:18   thought I would I made them and it turns out I was not using them at all [TS]

01:04:21   yeah and so that's when I rear screen to just be just a button is on or off it [TS]

01:04:28   sounds like it's also a real interesting difference between where you listen to [TS]

01:04:33   podcasts and it's like it seems like this read to the boys booster in [TS]

01:04:36   particular really comes in handy to people who listen in their car [TS]

01:04:40   yeah definitely that's and that's why I made it because I listen all the time of [TS]

01:04:43   my car i i i I got a new car couple years ago and it came with a Sirius [TS]

01:04:48   radio and probably like you know a six-month trial version I never [TS]

01:04:51   activated it i've only listen to podcast now I I used to listen to the satellite [TS]

01:04:56   radio before that I would listen to like mp3's and CDs and everything now in my [TS]

01:05:00   car I'm always listening to either either nothing like talking to tiff or [TS]

01:05:05   if I'm running alone usually it's always podcasts that's it and make some massive [TS]

01:05:11   difference in the car right environment and yet to noisy environments to the [TS]

01:05:15   baseline for where you need the quietest voice on the show to be audible is [TS]

01:05:21   potentially dangerously high for like a burst of laughter [TS]

01:05:25   somebody else's was recorded at a higher level right you know if you have [TS]

01:05:29   somebody was very polite and soft-spoken like Brent you know I used his his old [TS]

01:05:35   show as an example the show called with the counter guy with his brothers i dont [TS]

01:05:43   yeah yeah you that show a hundo that's good how he was like a loud boisterous [TS]

01:05:51   voice and brentwood was soft-spoken very well at first cuz they you know they [TS]

01:05:56   were when they first are the show they were they were in the experience [TS]

01:05:58   producing podcasts and get better at it afterwards but I used to use the earlier [TS]

01:06:02   episodes as a test for this feature because it was the perfect case where I [TS]

01:06:06   wanted to hear what brent was saying without having met your blown out when [TS]

01:06:10   Michael would talk and so it was it was exactly the situation where voice was [TS]

01:06:16   necessary so what is it [TS]

01:06:18   its combination of an EQ compressor and the compressor and it looks the father a [TS]

01:06:24   couple of ways but for the most part the compressor that that's that most of what [TS]

01:06:26   you're hearing is the compressor and and and that was the exact word-for-word [TS]

01:06:32   make bread loud enough so I can hear him in the car without blowing up my ears [TS]

01:06:37   when anyone else yeah there's like an old record producer adage that you know [TS]

01:06:42   you don't you don't optimized music album for high-quality studio headphones [TS]

01:06:50   you optimize it for the actual way that people in real-world listen to this [TS]

01:06:54   music which might be you know ten twenty years ago [TS]

01:06:57   you know a piece of crap portable radio you want to make sure it sounds good on [TS]

01:07:02   that because that's where it you know that doesn't sound good on that you're [TS]

01:07:05   never gonna hit song no matter how good it sounds on your you know thousand [TS]

01:07:09   dollars studio headphones exactly gotta optimized for the real world [TS]

01:07:13   yeah that's true its Web Design Lab design one more question I had I'm [TS]

01:07:19   surprised brent is I was for his feet parsing a nightmare for podcast is just [TS]

01:07:25   as bad as RSS because you know first of all podcasts or just simpler than the [TS]

01:07:33   entirety of RSS feeds you know the internet RSS feed first of all includes [TS]

01:07:37   Adam [TS]

01:07:38   and four different versions of RSS and and the the use cases for RSS feeds are [TS]

01:07:44   very varied there's all sorts of things it isn't just a site like Engadget [TS]

01:07:49   posting news headlines there is all sorts of things publish RSS feeds that [TS]

01:07:53   that any feed parser has to handle podcasts have two things going for them [TS]

01:07:58   not only are it is the scope of what they cover much smaller than that [TS]

01:08:03   because for the most part its audio shows that are produced you know once a [TS]

01:08:08   day once a week maybe that the most extreme ones my people was once an hour [TS]

01:08:11   from radio station but there's no not much more than that and you know usually [TS]

01:08:17   it's pretty pretty well formed for the most part in the end the second big [TS]

01:08:21   thing is that for all of the medium's history iTunes has been the dominant [TS]

01:08:25   player and historically it [TS]

01:08:28   iTunes less picky now but before it in previous years [TS]

01:08:32   iTunes used to be very picky about what kind of feeds it would accept if you're [TS]

01:08:36   steve is malformed all items wouldn't take it and so it kind of enforced a [TS]

01:08:42   level of consistency in quality even even a format iTunes for the for the [TS]

01:08:47   longest time only supported RSS it did you support and it still doesn't support [TS]

01:08:51   it that well right yeah exactly does support at him but not well as I looked [TS]

01:08:56   into that when I had to take over the field for the show and my back and [TS]

01:09:01   publishing stuff is all set up for Adam or at least a would work better without [TS]

01:09:06   him in theory and the bottom line was you could but you don't want to if you [TS]

01:09:11   really want you really want your podcast RSS exactly actual RSS not RSS as a [TS]

01:09:18   catch-all term that includes a time which is raising an atom [TS]

01:09:22   I I know this is like a holy war of 2003 I really don't like adam has a format [TS]

01:09:29   RSS was clearly designed to be pragmatic and Adam was designed to be the standard [TS]

01:09:38   that ends all standards can reproduce anything that shows you know it it shows [TS]

01:09:43   in the complexity of these two formats and and adam has a lot of [TS]

01:09:46   ambiguity in like ok well there seventeen different ways to represent [TS]

01:09:50   the date and you need to support all these people may use this one and then [TS]

01:09:53   what the heck is an author does everything have an author about what [TS]

01:09:56   houses other relevant to the other author and there's everything in Adam is [TS]

01:10:02   well it depends you know there's like seventeen different ways to do it and in [TS]

01:10:06   RSS you know it isn't a perfect format there there are some cuties built in the [TS]

01:10:10   format that are kind of annoying like the lack of required you ideas for [TS]

01:10:13   instance but for the most part [TS]

01:10:17   RSS you know as its name states is way simpler just to deal with to publish and [TS]

01:10:24   to consume it is so much simply because the format just can't represent all the [TS]

01:10:29   little train nuances that Adam can and a disease as a flaw I still has a future [TS]

01:10:34   yeah I totally agree in hindsight and who knows maybe someday I'll just change [TS]

01:10:39   everything in turn fireball to go RSS instead of Adam but for some reason I [TS]

01:10:43   picked the wrong side back then and I somehow convince myself that I don't [TS]

01:10:48   think I could have bought into the store that does sound good arguments behind [TS]

01:10:56   the atom people I mean I never got involved in wasn't really active but you [TS]

01:11:01   know reg remarked programs blog back then and couple other people who were [TS]

01:11:05   involved in it all made a lot of sense to me and there were certain aspects of [TS]

01:11:08   it that if you if you rendered a very simple feed-in Adam it looked better to [TS]

01:11:14   me than RSS and still doesn't weigh like I'm not thinking about it from the [TS]

01:11:18   perspective of someone writing a parser and you have to handle everything I was [TS]

01:11:21   thinking of it in terms of what would make my the daring fireball feed look [TS]

01:11:27   better if you just looked at it and I still think Adam is better in that [TS]

01:11:31   regard but that's a stupid thing to make the judgment on I think I think the [TS]

01:11:36   smarter way to look at it is just say RSS is super pragmatic and it is [TS]

01:11:41   designed from the get go for doing exactly and only what I was doing which [TS]

01:11:46   was here as well as opposed to like here we have to be to design an overarching [TS]

01:11:52   standard that will encompass every possible thing ever want to do again [TS]

01:11:55   yeah it's it's an atom was also you know a lot more strict with certain thing [TS]

01:11:59   things and it's it's almost like a parallel between X 60 ml ml five or even [TS]

01:12:07   gmail being our says you know it was more structured more defined but way [TS]

01:12:13   more complex and it sounded good in theory but in practice it just doesn't [TS]

01:12:17   really work that well and it's it's actually more complicated to deal with [TS]

01:12:21   in practice [TS]

01:12:21   RSS thing went by really quickly and just a handful years whereas the HTML [TS]

01:12:26   things played out over almost 20 years but I think it is pretty I think that's [TS]

01:12:32   a pretty decent high-level analogy and in in that analogy I think RSS 2.0 is [TS]

01:12:37   html5 which is yet [TS]

01:12:39   RSS and there had weird numbers of like point nine and point nine 1.92 in a [TS]

01:12:46   weird thing was that like [TS]

01:12:47   point nine one was from netscape and Dave Winer had nothing to do with it [TS]

01:12:51   point nine to back to the minor and ignored everything that was 1.91 it was [TS]

01:12:56   really a sequel 2.90 and I'm getting his version numbers wrong but it doesn't it [TS]

01:13:01   doesn't matter that I'm getting the exact version numbers wrong it's it's [TS]

01:13:04   brent was literally ground zero for all of that yes he was like right all the [TS]

01:13:09   partners and generators for all these things and and to be clear what I'm [TS]

01:13:13   talking about us i'm talking bout RSS to the earlier ones the RDF based ones that [TS]

01:13:17   after what we went but that was the battle though right that was the [TS]

01:13:20   internet with a text HTML never really was pitted against HTML for it was [TS]

01:13:25   really pitted against 805 I mean even though the time they weren't at the same [TS]

01:13:30   time effectively it was well the world's gonna move off HTML for eventually and [TS]

01:13:36   you know the standards people you know really thought it was going to be [TS]

01:13:43   exchanged email because of my god it's gonna be great little enforce that all [TS]

01:13:47   of your web pages or XML complain because of its not it won't render [TS]

01:13:51   everything everything was like structure and this is a battle that you know [TS]

01:13:55   computing has gone back and forth in this in cycles for decades [TS]

01:13:59   it was a battle for like structure and definitions and schemas and well-defined [TS]

01:14:04   everything and extremely unforgiving implementations versus you know [TS]

01:14:09   forgiving flexible just can't you know [TS]

01:14:11   you something out of will try to figure out what it is and the same the same [TS]

01:14:15   thing is happening now with like Objective C vs swift even mean it like [TS]

01:14:19   that we keep having the same battle over and over again where you know somebody [TS]

01:14:23   will want you know there'll be some kind of class of problems that academic [TS]

01:14:30   people will try to see will think needs to be solved and the way to solve it is [TS]

01:14:34   to require standards of everything can be strictly typed and and you know we [TS]

01:14:39   can validate everything and everything has to be defined in a file and rewrite [TS]

01:14:43   everything in Java with 10 men with 10 class deep hierarchies of every model [TS]

01:14:48   this isn't this isn't just a personal me to have a person factory constructor to [TS]

01:14:52   construct the factory that builds people and they all just like these levels and [TS]

01:14:55   levels of complexity and structure to combat the freeform loud west of dirty [TS]

01:15:02   data you know and then the dirty dirty people come into everything faster and [TS]

01:15:05   everything has worked anyway and then the cycle repeats again it I'm I think [TS]

01:15:11   we're gonna always see the cycle just go back and forth and I was not going to [TS]

01:15:15   get into this and this could be this could absolutely sank the entire US one [TS]

01:15:22   now I mean have you seen this thing or there's this group that wants to turn [TS]

01:15:25   marked down into an IETF standard it let me guess jeff Atwood I don't even know [TS]

01:15:32   you know last weekend I was out of town with Amy and wasn't paying attention and [TS]

01:15:39   I've been busy this week on other stuff haven't even paid attention to it but i [TS]

01:15:43   dont have associated with that Woods crusade or not and there's talk from [TS]

01:15:51   some people and the funny thing is they're doing it on a mailing list that [TS]

01:15:53   I still host and I haven't participate [TS]

01:15:56   in years and I don't know why but I still holds the markdown discuss mailing [TS]

01:16:02   list and there's people saying that they should just take the name mark down for [TS]

01:16:06   me because I've been to tell as a steward of it and whatever meanwhile you [TS]

01:16:13   know there's the web pages on my site for markdown with describing the syntax [TS]

01:16:18   and everything are more popular every single day [TS]

01:16:22   more popular the market I could actually I thought about selling a sponsorship [TS]

01:16:26   just for markdown alone because it's more popular the markdown pages enduring [TS]

01:16:30   fireball get more traffic than during fireball did as a whole [TS]

01:16:34   when I went professional would you could you could get like you know web [TS]

01:16:39   development kind of advertising through that too like it's a different market [TS]

01:16:42   right that's exactly why a job or just although I do actually think a lot of [TS]

01:16:49   the traffic is not coming from web developers is coming from people who are [TS]

01:16:54   using a new site that has switched to mark down as the format you know but [TS]

01:17:02   anyway long story I could go on forever about this but to me [TS]

01:17:05   markdowns not successful despite not being a standard and and and etcetera [TS]

01:17:13   etcetera all that won't tell but because of that now is possible that it would be [TS]

01:17:18   better off if there were some kind of spec that could you know if there were [TS]

01:17:22   suspected implementers could implement for some things and you know maybe I [TS]

01:17:29   wanna get to deepen this but there's some ideas and some work that some [TS]

01:17:34   people have done that really interesting in that regard because 99.999% of people [TS]

01:17:39   wouldn't have to worry about it and it wouldn't change things but some of the [TS]

01:17:44   things that people see as a problem like the fact that different markdown [TS]

01:17:47   implementations are slightly different is not a problem it's actually you know [TS]

01:17:51   that actually a good thing because then get home which has my opinion a great [TS]

01:17:56   flavor of markdown [TS]

01:17:57   they even call it and have a great name for a perfect name called get hugs [TS]

01:18:01   flavored markdown and it is exactly suited for get home users and it does [TS]

01:18:05   code a little differently because no shit get her abusers are writing a lot [TS]

01:18:11   of you know code blocks and it would not an end almost none of the changes would [TS]

01:18:18   make sense for markdown everywhere so you know it's great people see the [TS]

01:18:25   world's broken regarding mark down because there's not one true mark down [TS]

01:18:28   and meanwhile the real world everybody's happy writing yeah I think you're right [TS]

01:18:35   I doesn't doesn't seem like it's a problem that needs to really be solved [TS]

01:18:39   exactly and you know I think I think there's a stamp there's a tendency for [TS]

01:18:45   programmers to want to clean up standards and and and formalized things [TS]

01:18:50   like that and in many cases that is warranted but I I think saying that [TS]

01:18:56   everything has to be a standard is like saying open always wins [TS]

01:18:58   exactly like you know that that is true sometimes but it is not a generalization [TS]

01:19:03   that cold all the time and I don't know I mean maybe there are things that [TS]

01:19:09   should be standardized but it seems like Martin has gotten along just fine [TS]

01:19:12   without that and it's moving along fine and you're right that you know different [TS]

01:19:16   implementations will have different needs and it is it is not wise to try to [TS]

01:19:22   cram all these specialty needs into one standard that everybody must follow and [TS]

01:19:27   the name and everything its version than yesterday how well does it support [TS]

01:19:29   Martin 2.0 or not and it's it's kind of a mess I don't know if it's a hard [TS]

01:19:34   problem to solve but I wouldn't assume that he standards body is necessarily [TS]

01:19:40   the right solution to this problem I would almost certainly say this is [TS]

01:19:44   absolutely not [TS]

01:19:46   well of course you would say they're trying to fire you but I don't know why [TS]

01:19:53   I think that the success of markdown despite not having a standards body [TS]

01:19:57   behind it all this time is the biggest evidence why it probably doesn't need [TS]

01:20:02   one right exactly and you know part of what it meant lets it get by without [TS]

01:20:06   aspect [TS]

01:20:07   and you know I like it better in some ways there are there's things that could [TS]

01:20:12   be clarified and there's things that make mark down very hard for example the [TS]

01:20:15   right syntax coloring description for because of ambiguities there stands the [TS]

01:20:21   general assumption with marked on the thing that that the reason why it [TS]

01:20:24   doesn't have a speckle I think it probably shouldn't is the general [TS]

01:20:27   assumption is that whoever is writing it knows what they're doing and isn't going [TS]

01:20:31   to put in put random gibberish and there's all sorts of problems that [TS]

01:20:36   people are talking about as well what if you put seven asterisks in a row what is [TS]

01:20:40   that generate while don't do that that's my answer I don't know what that [TS]

01:20:44   generates generate a bunch of empty tags or strong tags I don't know just seems [TS]

01:20:50   like why would you do that you know check what it looks like before you [TS]

01:20:55   publish it and ABC always forgot that if I put a bunch of asterisks there that [TS]

01:21:00   mean something and markdown I should back / escaping just take a look at it [TS]

01:21:05   it could be better I'm not trying to brush aside all criticism of it and said [TS]

01:21:11   that there is nothing I could do better answers I thought maybe I should Wade [TS]

01:21:14   take a couple of weeks and way back in and clean up some things but I think [TS]

01:21:18   what markdown needs from me would be like a version I don't know what the [TS]

01:21:22   official version 1.0 one should do like a 1.02 or at most like a 1.1 yeah maybe [TS]

01:21:32   a 1.1 there's no need for Martin to point out and there's no need for a [TS]

01:21:37   standard respect but people get really worked up about what if they just make [TS]

01:21:41   their own thing and give it another name and see if it catches on exactly thats [TS]

01:21:44   I've said that that's like I probably should set up a text expander make up [TS]

01:21:50   your own thing and see if it catches on [TS]

01:21:52   yeah because it might and then then fine problem solved then you have your own [TS]

01:21:55   thing that you control it has a different name and find you got it right [TS]

01:22:01   we'll see how that goes it's it's either going to peter out or it's going to be a [TS]

01:22:05   thing that I'm going to have to take a little more public and then [TS]

01:22:09   you know and be like no you cannot take them and I i do have an ISO bucks for [TS]

01:22:15   that and I have a lot of people who are probably gonna be on my side of this and [TS]

01:22:18   then everybody will remember him talking to mark about that on his podcast couple [TS]

01:22:22   weeks an even trade market may be well I probably should try and that's probably [TS]

01:22:30   it probably is not worth it on way be harder because it's a general it's a you [TS]

01:22:34   know getting a regular word even though the pine involved in the name i think is [TS]

01:22:38   rather clever but I don't know might be hard cuz its edition 1 I'm not a [TS]

01:22:44   trademark lawyer filed for a number of trademarks now so I'm familiar with the [TS]

01:22:48   process and understand you can you could almost definitely trade market it [TS]

01:22:56   doesn't matter that you haven't yet it doesn't matter that it's out there you [TS]

01:23:00   know the Fed is it still your thing your project [TS]

01:23:02   generic term that describes all things like this it is still a specific thing [TS]

01:23:08   that you made and you could just make the [TS]

01:23:13   this is a very common thing I hear people talking incorrectly about podcast [TS]

01:23:17   all the time they assumes a trademark is is universally unique name right when in [TS]

01:23:23   fact when you file for a trademark you have to you have to file for it in [TS]

01:23:26   certain relatively narrow categories and the more broadly you want that trademark [TS]

01:23:31   to apply the harder it is to get and is it possible to get more broadly there [TS]

01:23:37   might be someone else that's too close to you so like so you know like I had to [TS]

01:23:41   file for overcast Street mark within the parameters of a website that does that [TS]

01:23:48   lets people search and find him play podcasts and also a mobile application [TS]

01:23:52   with people search and find and play podcast and audio files and you know you [TS]

01:23:56   have to have to be that specific and and and and the more than ordinary and [TS]

01:24:02   overcast as a word it's an English dictionary word but I still have a [TS]

01:24:04   trademark pending on it looks like it's going to go through just fine and there [TS]

01:24:09   are other trademarks are the word that are in different industries and that's [TS]

01:24:11   fine too and so you are trademarks are are limited to a certain scope and if [TS]

01:24:17   you make it scoped narrow enough you can trade market want anything that's not [TS]

01:24:20   like getting [TS]

01:24:21   Twitter account name that's impossible every time it comes up where someone [TS]

01:24:26   like oh yeah I want to recover this abandoned him on Twitter every time this [TS]

01:24:31   comes up there's like three people who are like oh I know a guy that you can [TS]

01:24:36   just email this person and every time if anyone else does it they can't do it [TS]

01:24:40   anymore the process has now changed it is now more strict [TS]

01:24:42   sorry can't do it I think there might have been some loosey-goosey early days [TS]

01:24:46   where you can get in 2009 you could still get claimed but they can put our [TS]

01:24:55   name but I don't know I think for obvious reasons that order I have at [TS]

01:25:01   markdown I don't think I've ever posted but I do have that you know this I think [TS]

01:25:06   I talked about this in the show but it was years ago [TS]

01:25:08   who want to buy it from me know Glenn Beck show right-wing talk show [TS]

01:25:18   personality Glenn Beck does he have a show with that name [TS]

01:25:22   he started says he got involved in some kind of like an overstock.com competitor [TS]

01:25:32   price markdowns like Groupon or something I went and looked at it and [TS]

01:25:40   tried to figure out what the hell was I was just like now so I just got emails [TS]

01:25:44   from them that they wanted to make a very serious offer about the Twitter [TS]

01:25:48   account and I just never answered him that that is that is really true I just [TS]

01:25:54   couldn't live with myself if i dont wanna hear the number I don't think a [TS]

01:25:58   lot of in that big anyway I really down I don't think it would have been an [TS]

01:26:02   offer that I couldn't refuse but I was afraid that it would be an offer I [TS]

01:26:06   couldn't refuse [TS]

01:26:08   on the other hand it would be nice to take a whole lot of clamtxt money I [TS]

01:26:12   don't know if there's something about that I thought of that too that would [TS]

01:26:17   have been nice to you know buy a new car with Glenn Beck's money but that [TS]

01:26:20   I don't know there's some of that but anyway he wanted to buy but I think his [TS]

01:26:26   whole thing fell apart anyway now it is marked down is not even remembered I [TS]

01:26:31   think anybody remember do you remember him i dont know cuz he's not on TV [TS]

01:26:37   anymore I still pops up on the politics I treat everyone so you can actually you [TS]

01:26:42   actually read politics I can I like politics make me so angry like every [TS]

01:26:46   every political news thing I've ever read it just made me angry so I just [TS]

01:26:50   tried to avoid as much as I used to be really into it when I did another [TS]

01:26:53   enormous decoration but circa 2002 and I thought you know what I've gotta start a [TS]

01:26:58   blog and it was maybe it wasn't quite fifty-fifty and no in hindsight [TS]

01:27:02   everybody's gonna say come on but it felt closer to fifty 50 me whether I [TS]

01:27:07   would write about tact and etcetera [TS]

01:27:10   politics and etcetera and I thought well maybe I'll start during fireball one [TS]

01:27:16   first which I always knew it would be the name of this one and I thought maybe [TS]

01:27:22   I started second blog even have a name for it but I won't I can't say whether [TS]

01:27:25   this where I would write about politics but it's just to me it's not that makes [TS]

01:27:31   me angry anymore it just bores me aboard the same story time everyone's getting [TS]

01:27:38   screwed these people are being bribed or being bought by lobbyists and you know [TS]

01:27:43   this common people are getting screwed even further and everything just sucks [TS]

01:27:47   there's no hope and say that's basically it if you if you boil it down it [TS]

01:27:51   basically whatever political story is and yeah I think if I had been alive [TS]

01:27:56   been born a few decades earlier [TS]

01:28:00   seemed like a columnist typewriter in the seventies or eighties I think it [TS]

01:28:05   would have been about politics aside he was so much more interesting than and I [TS]

01:28:09   know there's a lot of a lot of the some of the problems are exactly the same in [TS]

01:28:12   the partisanship and stuff but it wasn't the money wasn't is as corrosive it [TS]

01:28:18   wasn't so much that there was really all just about business you know it was it [TS]

01:28:22   was more you know the partisanship was actually interesting and kind of fun to [TS]

01:28:26   write about I just think it's funny also that you know you and I have a similar [TS]

01:28:31   problem you have a to a larger scale because your audience is much larger [TS]

01:28:34   than mine [TS]

01:28:35   we have a similar problem in that we say things that are opinionated about topics [TS]

01:28:41   that shouldn't be emotionally charged but for many people they are and we get [TS]

01:28:47   a lot of crap from people who are like unreasonably surprisingly angry about [TS]

01:28:54   some statement we make about like a phone I can't even imagine what it would [TS]

01:28:59   take in your mind to think that it'd be a good idea to enter political writing [TS]

01:29:03   as an additional thing that you did from that point of view [TS]

01:29:07   yeah and when I dabbled in it on during fireball it's you know i i dont mind the [TS]

01:29:13   criticism but it was enormous it was it peaked in 2008 with the Sarah Palin [TS]

01:29:18   thing because I couldn't i couldn't hold my tongue so clear that the woman was [TS]

01:29:22   you know borderline mentally disabled I mean real real real problem and she was [TS]

01:29:31   a scary time when it appeared that like there was a very good chance like most [TS]

01:29:37   people today who weren't voting are paying attention in 2008 don't realize [TS]

01:29:41   that like there was a very good chance Sarah Palin is going to be president [TS]

01:29:45   right as you know mccain [TS]

01:29:46   counselor now but I'm looking at McCain saying he's not in great health he's [TS]

01:29:50   pretty old he was like one of the oldest people to run for president and well and [TS]

01:29:54   there is a tremendous and I think well grounded fear that the polling numbers [TS]

01:29:58   might be severe [TS]

01:29:58   might be severe [TS]

01:30:00   nearly off because there are an awful lot of people who wouldn't want to tell [TS]

01:30:03   pollsters that they wouldn't vote for the black guy but right when they go in [TS]

01:30:07   a in the privacy of the voting booth would be there was a very real chance [TS]

01:30:12   that McCain and Palin gonna win and and that and because of McCain's age and [TS]

01:30:17   health there is a good chance he might not make it a first for eight years and [TS]

01:30:21   that she might become president were really like non-trivial possibilities [TS]

01:30:25   and when I try to better man people with certain subset of people would just go [TS]

01:30:30   not and it was funny some of them were clearly themselves very low IQ but [TS]

01:30:35   others were not others were you know but that you know there because that's their [TS]

01:30:39   side and and they'd say you know if she was a democrat you never know if she was [TS]

01:30:43   if that part of my politics are certainly not conservative but I'm not [TS]

01:30:48   you know if if if true moron ran on Democratic ticket I would do the same [TS]

01:30:55   thing like it's way more dangerous way more dangerous I I prefer to have a [TS]

01:31:00   Democrat in the White House Republican I do but I would much rather have any [TS]

01:31:07   republican of reasonable intelligent Nomura democrat and they don't like you [TS]

01:31:15   when the democrats sell out the public at least try to do it quietly and and in [TS]

01:31:20   subtle and more subtle ways that are they're less likely be traced back to [TS]

01:31:23   them [TS]

01:31:24   the republicans have have learned that they can sell at the public in public [TS]

01:31:28   like you know brashly they can they can just they can do things that seem [TS]

01:31:35   ridiculous 22 thinking people but they can get away with it because no one [TS]

01:31:41   cares it's just that the public does not give a crap and so they just because [TS]

01:31:47   they can do the democrats give us the illusion that they are they have in mind [TS]

01:31:54   which of course they don't but at least think about that illusion and here's [TS]

01:31:58   mark Owens [TS]

01:32:00   proving in the email I'll get in the coming seven days exactly why I made the [TS]

01:32:04   right choice [TS]

01:32:05   totally know and I i think i think its best floor for you and I to keep doing [TS]

01:32:11   what we already do with this issue which is like for truly important issues blog [TS]

01:32:17   about them on our tech blogs because if you know if we if either of us had a [TS]

01:32:22   political blog the only people who would really be able to agree with us or NDA [TS]

01:32:28   be there be occasional drive by trolls who wanted to yell at us but we do [TS]

01:32:32   anything and so i think i think you can make more of a difference for a cause [TS]

01:32:38   you care about my not usually being political and choosing occasional times [TS]

01:32:43   where it's worth it to be and then you kind of tricks on people who don't agree [TS]

01:32:46   with you into seeing that opinion [TS]

01:32:48   here's the thing I keep thinking when I look back I think that I wish that our [TS]

01:32:52   system works it up in a way that it would be a lot easier for whoever won [TS]

01:32:56   the last election to get whatever shit done that they want and if it turns out [TS]

01:33:01   to be unpopular they're gonna get voted out and whoever comes in next can undo [TS]

01:33:06   it I think there should be a lot more of that whereas we've got a system now word [TS]

01:33:12   it's like nothing happens right like 11 majors exaggerating to some extent but [TS]

01:33:19   really only one major thing has happened since Obama was elected president which [TS]

01:33:24   is health care reform and look at how well that like everyone keeps trying to [TS]

01:33:28   repeal that his comical that's one thing right but still that's somebody's gonna [TS]

01:33:36   say because it is a terrible president badly durable but it's not it's because [TS]

01:33:43   it's so the system is set up in a way that nobody can get it done bush didn't [TS]

01:33:47   get much done other than start the wars and terms of major accomplishment [TS]

01:33:51   because it was like this thing that both sides could somehow for a few brief [TS]

01:33:55   years it was like everybody felt like we had to get behind them I'm not saying I [TS]

01:34:01   was behind a banner saying that like democrats who were in the senate and [TS]

01:34:05   house also voted for it it was something that but other than that [TS]

01:34:09   nobody passes and it and it would be so much better and I say this knowing that [TS]

01:34:13   in my lifetime there will be republican presidents and Republicans control of [TS]

01:34:17   the House and Senate and all those things ebb and flow I'd rather see even [TS]

01:34:22   the republicans get to get more of their stuff done while they're winning and [TS]

01:34:27   vice versa [TS]

01:34:28   than the current system which seems to be set up basically around the idea what [TS]

01:34:31   try to make sure nobody can do anything yet it seems like there there are some [TS]

01:34:35   like security holes in the procedures in congress where you know it's very easy [TS]

01:34:41   for for a party to block everything ever even when they're not really empowered [TS]

01:34:47   like the whole filibuster thing and certain majority rules like there's [TS]

01:34:50   certain things were like it's just it seems like when these rules were [TS]

01:34:54   considered or made and demanded it was not really a it was not really a thought [TS]

01:34:58   put into it that what if one party or the other [TS]

01:35:02   just two sides to block everything for a decade later says no to everything the [TS]

01:35:06   party ever does for a decade and no one ever compromise on anything like I think [TS]

01:35:09   that thought never crossed his mind before it never really happened before [TS]

01:35:13   and now they're now we're being shown oh this is kind of a problem because we [TS]

01:35:19   can't get anything done even things that are fairly moderate [TS]

01:35:22   even get moderate things packed just so yeah I I could use some rethought it [TS]

01:35:27   like some some some real changes in congress just to just to make sure that [TS]

01:35:32   it's possible to get something through 44 whoever has the technical majority [TS]

01:35:39   and I think in terms of looking at a career as a you know podcasting host and [TS]

01:35:44   columnist on a blog that's what I mean when I say it to me it would be it would [TS]

01:35:50   be to born I think I might have burned out on it not because I would have [TS]

01:35:53   worked harder at it but that it would have been more stressful it I think I [TS]

01:35:57   would have burned out from boredom you know like I think what makes what we [TS]

01:36:00   talked about in general [TS]

01:36:01   interesting is how quickly things can change you know I mean just look at the [TS]

01:36:05   phones alone [TS]

01:36:06   that we've gone from the world you know where the iPhone didn't exist seven [TS]

01:36:11   years ago just come out [TS]

01:36:13   couple weeks ago seven years ago to world where IBM and apple or selling [TS]

01:36:19   iPhones to go to corporate customers crazy [TS]

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01:37:07   maybe I haven't looked yet I'm not sure if they don't have it now I know that [TS]

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01:38:30   with a why / the talk show you get a seven day free trial so you don't back [TS]

01:38:36   off of any money up front just anything that might interest you go there use [TS]

01:38:42   that URL seven days watch a whole bunch of video and at the end of it I [TS]

01:38:47   guarantee you'll be in your sign up so just go there lynda.com / the talk show [TS]

01:38:53   and check it out for yourself [TS]

01:38:54   great sponsor speaker commercials you know what I saw the other day [TS]

01:39:00   blew me away I'm in a bar with Amy having a drink on the TV behind the bar [TS]

01:39:07   it's showing ESPN and you know I see a TV and pay attention to it and all of a [TS]

01:39:13   sudden a timely scores on TV oh yeah for what that there's a commercial he shot a [TS]

01:39:20   sandwich video for a company called TrueCar TR UE CA are the future of [TS]

01:39:25   car-buying I actually haven't watched the whole thing I was in the bargain [TS]

01:39:29   here at all I didn't see him now his videos have gone on real TV like [TS]

01:39:34   national TV that the strange thing to see like your friend all the sudden [TS]

01:39:39   appear on TV [TS]

01:39:40   went nuts and seeds you know I was like that I know that God that's why he's [TS]

01:39:46   been on my show and there is up there it's just a classic sandwich and he's [TS]

01:39:53   the spokesman he's he's in it you know that's awesome I'm so I'm so happy for [TS]

01:39:59   him for everything he's like I remember back when he was before his retirement [TS]

01:40:03   video he was doing like video work people he didn't seem like he was not [TS]

01:40:07   happy doing I don't you know I don't put words in his mouth but it seemed like he [TS]

01:40:10   was he was not incredibly happy with his previous jobs and he he did a thing on [TS]

01:40:16   his own and it just exploded he is because right now everyone sees [TS]

01:40:21   how cool he is like his style how how talented he is and how good his work is [TS]

01:40:28   an and his unique style and voice he puts into these things that are so [TS]

01:40:32   appealing to so many people like it's so great to see your friends have that kind [TS]

01:40:35   of success and the nicest guy in the world you know it couldn't happen to a [TS]

01:40:40   better guy no such a thrill but it's so it's so because to its like who would [TS]

01:40:48   have thought that he you know he just doesn't look like what you think of his [TS]

01:40:51   celebrity pitchmen right he's and he's like deadpan and legs look like muted [TS]

01:40:56   and and it works and it works really well I'm we oh we oh we all thought that [TS]

01:41:00   you know like internet nerds he would see his videos previously doesn't love [TS]

01:41:03   them but yeah I think it's it's a surprise in a very good way that wow [TS]

01:41:09   everyone else feels this way to it's it's like it like nerdy smart stuff like [TS]

01:41:15   what we so often like around these parts is now popular everywhere it was so [TS]

01:41:21   funny I was making the directory and overcast and I had a few days ago and [TS]

01:41:25   and Jason Snell suggested this category entitled pop culture and almost [TS]

01:41:32   everything in it is about geek culture and part that's like us but part of it's [TS]

01:41:39   also because each culture now is pop culture and that was a very strange [TS]

01:41:43   thing to realize is right thing the other day where they turned out that [TS]

01:41:48   turns out the next door as a woman and it was like I couldn't it was on every [TS]

01:41:55   site it didn't matter whether it was a mainstream site it was covered with [TS]

01:41:59   equal you know excitement that it was a perfect example of me because I remember [TS]

01:42:08   growing up what happened comic books would be like some of the other kids in [TS]

01:42:14   fifth grade hurt you couldn't turn on TV and find out about the new Spiderman [TS]

01:42:20   outfit you know they were making movies that made billions of dollars with him [TS]

01:42:26   but it's just funny how its crossover [TS]

01:42:29   and I but that's the thing though is that it's I think it's highly doubtful [TS]

01:42:33   that you know all sorts of stuff that happened in the comic books doesn't [TS]

01:42:38   necessarily mean it's gonna happen in the movies you know so it it only in the [TS]

01:42:43   comic books where there's gonna be a Thor is now a woman I guess I could [TS]

01:42:49   eventually be turned into a movie but I like you've had me on here talk about [TS]

01:42:54   IBM Tempe and comics comics I am like so incredibly unfair I just think it's [TS]

01:43:04   interesting it's an interesting example of what you're talking about [TS]

01:43:07   yeah I think I think it's more like you know it a lot of people know you know [TS]

01:43:13   one or two nerds who maybe you are one of these nerds who you were a nerd [TS]

01:43:19   socially growing up it did not serve you well and then you got a job that paid [TS]

01:43:23   good money and all of a sudden people are interested in you I feel like that [TS]

01:43:27   has happened to the entire nerd industry like to hold her geeky category of [TS]

01:43:33   things like now geeks are big business [TS]

01:43:36   you know we have we control the internet stuff are comic books and all that crap [TS]

01:43:39   who are now billion dollar movie franchises and stuff like that like the [TS]

01:43:44   rest of the world that cares about us because we have all the money gets to a [TS]

01:43:48   certain degree that describes me but I think I was always a little bit a little [TS]

01:43:52   bit outside that a little bit harder to pin down in that sort of like my high [TS]

01:43:59   school years were not unhappy I wasn't that wouldn't I would say only that made [TS]

01:44:02   me really unhappy as I just wanted already live on my own but they don't [TS]

01:44:06   love me or not great but I felt like I was I was I felt clearly able to make my [TS]

01:44:11   own decisions about when to go to bed you know when I was around 11 you have [TS]

01:44:18   now reached the conclusion of side one of your official national lampoons [TS]

01:44:22   stereo test and demonstration record and what better time for our special end of [TS]

01:44:27   the record test first of all this is a test of your equipment no matter what [TS]

01:44:33   brand or type of record player you have the tonearm should now be close to the [TS]

01:44:37   center of the record and almost at the shiny area just before the label [TS]

01:44:42   if you own an automatic turntable in a few seconds the arm should raise itself [TS]

01:44:48   as if by magic and then returned to its rest near the outside of the unit if you [TS]

01:44:55   do not have an automatic turntable this should not happen the second part of [TS]

01:45:00   this test involves you you have been correctly installed as part of your [TS]

01:45:05   stereo system you will now lift the record up turn it over and replace it on [TS]

01:45:11   the turntable with side to the top you will then proceed to listen to all [TS]

01:45:17   excited to see if you do not do this you have failed the test and you have the [TS]

01:45:24   worst hi-fi system in the world no matter how much money you spent [TS]