63: Would You Pay A Quarter For That?

0:00:00so Glenn Fleishman welcome to the toxin thanks for having me on I so let's just

0:00:04run down the ball is your guide the near two-year I think and I think this is new

0:00:10since the last time you were on this does show is that I think that you're

0:00:15now the owner publisher editor or not editor I'm not sure about that

0:00:20of the the magazine I'm everything on the bottle washer yeah I think I was on

0:00:25just before mark when I did the dealer few months before it was a good that was

0:00:31actually think after I came on as editor yellow Marco sold everything except his

0:00:37dog and children sparkles and judy was very funny time but yeah it's logical

0:00:44units I love doing this and and mark as a programmer and the cycle is really

0:00:51differ between being a programmer in a publisher and I think the timing is

0:00:54great when he was ready to move on with his new endeavors do not know your

0:00:58secret podcast thing but anyway you running an entire magazine a weekly

0:01:03bangs no biweekly that's correct

0:01:05fortnightly every two weeks

0:01:09biweekly one of those words that can mean two different things

0:01:13yes I can you quick and you will perennial which means every year in

0:01:17which means that only wants they both mean every year and an annual plant that

0:01:24is the plan annual implants I guess the thing is it only comes out once an

0:01:29appreciable bloom again every year it it's it's it's language language is

0:01:34probably a biweekly doesn't have any weekly monthly bi-monthly can mean twice

0:01:40a month or every two months the languages of all three most people say

0:01:44semi monthly or twice a month by month means every other month but yeah it's

0:01:50becoming periodicals became more common because publications are reducing their

0:01:54frequencies New York magazine is going to every other week down for instance

0:01:58after many many years of being weekly Saturday

0:02:06read off the bar top available all bunch of the on topics but there was a day of

0:02:13a great article ID and yeah I have not yet linked it from daring fireball but

0:02:18by the time the show comes out I will have a cover story on a new issue of the

0:02:23magazine about Alex Rodriguez the New York Yankees battle superstar and it's

0:02:29one of the finest pieces of journalism that I've read in a long time because

0:02:34there's this whole thing where he's been accused of using performance-enhancing

0:02:37drugs any position at 211 game suspension and he's farted and nobody

0:02:44really knows what the hell is going on and this article and I follow as a as a

0:02:48Yankees fan I've been following the saga you know pretty avidly I guess I would

0:02:58say you know all year long and still had no idea like to me it was never been

0:03:03clear just what evidence they had against them they must have had

0:03:06something blah blah blah this article makes the whole thing clear you really

0:03:10truly journalism at its finest

0:03:13get a funny thing journalism is a problem because the best kind of

0:03:17journalism that we think we like the most that we like sticks with us and you

0:03:23will go back and read or turns to a book or it changes the law or whatever that

0:03:28stuff is so ridiculously unprofitable it costs so much money to do that entire

0:03:34news organizations are devoted to making enough money to afford to be able to do

0:03:38that sort of journalism yeah just caught i mean the Seattle Times always save

0:03:43them because their family-run paper the family is really weird and made some

0:03:47really terrible business decisions would sell 51% owned by the family that bought

0:03:50in the 1800's and they will do things like spend two million dollars for a

0:03:54two-year investigation into the washing state courts ceiling documents

0:03:58inappropriately and caused massive positive political social change they

0:04:03did not make two million dollars on everything else they did subsidized that

0:04:07two million dollars so that could happen and they have to actually believe in the

0:04:11mission of believe that

0:04:12gives him an aura that keep subscribers or bring subscribers in that was worth

0:04:17it and and that's our hearts that's a hard sell

0:04:20yeah and just you know this article I'm talking about just title chasing Iran

0:04:25and it is written by gotta go back to page one which I want to get into Steve

0:04:35Fishman wrote a cover story related to me of course and and it it was a

0:04:42monumental effort it really is you know in the best of feature-length magazine

0:04:47writing is is much closer to in scope to book writing and to you know article

0:04:56writing it's closer to a miniature book than it is to you know to me an article

0:05:02is somewhere around a thousand words once you get past that you know you're

0:05:08somehow you're taking on something that needs a lot more nurturing work but he

0:05:14traveled to Miami that's where Alex Rodriguez lives and in a big part of the

0:05:18reason this article so interesting is that it's the fees the first journalist

0:05:22who who Alex Rodriguez had opened up two and so we travel to Miami hung out with

0:05:31them and was there he spent time in New York in the the trial but arbitration

0:05:38hearing with major league baseball bats at Springer ass in the seat in a room

0:05:45where there you know those things anybody's ever been in a courtroom jury

0:05:50duty or even just gotten out of jury duty you know that all those things they

0:05:53go slowly its days you know just waiting

0:05:56for what you know couple of paragraphs and in the meantime you know as a writer

0:06:03bills have to be paid you know so you it takes money to gather together the

0:06:08reporting let alone the time it takes to write the actual article I'm reading a

0:06:14bill Stephenson

0:06:15apiece for wired years ago where he traced fiber-optic cable around the

0:06:18world and I read it I thought a this is still you know the type of his career

0:06:24but this one is really on the peak so he's getting massive amounts of advances

0:06:27and selling millions of books and and I thought hey how much do they have to pay

0:06:30him for a fee but be reading all the places he went in thinking he had like a

0:06:35$75,000 expense budget traveling coach two star hotels because of the fifty

0:06:44places he went to sheer amount of time it's astonishing the amount that's the

0:06:48use of thousand words you can talk to someone on the phone or a thousand words

0:06:52you know you're 20 minute conversation conversation right about one thing but

0:06:56when you get beyond that you have to start to shape the narrative and you

0:06:59have to start doing research you have to have things that go beyond the obvious

0:07:03or a few quotations because otherwise like what are you writing about for that

0:07:07long was not enough to send me your people philosophical essays and longer

0:07:11but if you're writing about news and all things then you know yeah and so that's

0:07:17I still feel and I feel like it's a good topic to talk to you about is is where

0:07:23does the money for this type of work continued to come from as we move

0:07:26forward and BuzzFeed driven world that's what I'm asking where does it come from

0:07:32its you know and I don't know where to start but with

0:07:39just stuff in the last week you know where over Thanksgiving did you follow

0:07:45you had to follow this this align gale laga oh yeah that was yeah and I felt

0:07:52very bad for my spot about myself at first I thought it was hilarious and I

0:07:55thought oh no wait the guy's a dick and I thought no this can't be true you know

0:08:00went through through regret for anybody who missed a deal on Gale I never heard

0:08:04of before but he's apparently this producer executive producer of the bunch

0:08:07of really shitty reality shows like The Bachelor and the Bachelorette something

0:08:12else and over Thanksgiving I guess on the day he tweeted a series of tweets

0:08:17ostensibly live from the wi-fi equipped plane about it

0:08:22terrible woman a few rows ahead of him who was berating the crew because their

0:08:31flight was delayed and and this woman hands up and then he sent her notes

0:08:36drinks and i got really rude with her and that was the part that there's too

0:08:42weird parts to it the weirdest part is that it ends up the whole thing was fake

0:08:46he made the whole but a lot of you know but it was all presented as being true

0:08:50and even Twitter when people said hey is this fake and he you know denied it but

0:08:58the other thing too is that even if it was true you said it first at first and

0:09:04it was like us low boiling frog for his behavior to the first if it were true

0:09:10was kind of funny but then when he started sending notes to her that that

0:09:13said he might Dec

0:09:16you know it's it's over the line I mean that's actually a really creepy thing to

0:09:21do if even if it were true I mean that's you know they can get you arrested

0:09:27everyone in this situation he interested in and then she allegedly he said she

0:09:31slapped him and nothing happened

0:09:34police were called and you know it was it was a weird for me it's you know this

0:09:40is the channeling that

0:09:42that bridge we all have now because the airlines packets in its all of the

0:09:47Flying Spur is horrible and all the flat plains are full and everything is bad

0:09:51about flying they did a great job tapping into that that feeling where we

0:09:55see play we feel like we are surrounded by horrible people even if they're

0:10:00perfectly nice other circumstance everyone has pushed the limit and he's

0:10:04like you know so I'm taking actions like I that's great but the thing is is it

0:10:10turned into sensation I mean then you know multi million pageviews sensation

0:10:17BuzzFeed and picked it up and I'll BuzzFeed did and probably did as much as

0:10:23anybody to to drive it as a way to say this a viral meme I don't know story but

0:10:32it it was even if it were true it is kind of bullshit to be the biggest story

0:10:38of the day and ends up the whole thing was a hoax and was rather easily

0:10:41verified as a hoax or at least you know nobody did any work to actually see if

0:10:46it were true and yet that everything has continued to devolve even everybody

0:10:53knows that page views are so problematic as a measure of advertising and so many

0:10:59ways that the publishing world has continued to even knowing how poisonous

0:11:05this whole model is as continued to devolve in that direction and I can't

0:11:11think of it's it's it's as good an example is anything I mean the cures

0:11:15example of where we're at is that Business Insider running you know they

0:11:19got all kinds of opinions about them of course and how they do they fight they

0:11:24follow pageviews the one of their editors wrote about his rebooked trip to

0:11:29China where was paid for by the Chinese airline that whole crazy story like

0:11:35million 1.5 million page views or something a story about how he was

0:11:39traveling in the lap of luxury took a bunch of pictures and Harry blodgett

0:11:44awful thing about being cramped and an American Airlines flight last year

0:11:47whatever that was

0:11:48they got hundreds of thousands of you so they figured out how to tap people sort

0:11:53of curious

0:11:54or I don't know what it is like its interest and turn it into massive

0:11:59traffic and then they sell that message traffic at an incredibly incredibly low

0:12:03rate so they have to have billions of used to make any kind of real money in

0:12:08any case but but they're finding people will come and read the stuff so there is

0:12:11an audience for it and and there's no chance that that sort of crap is going

0:12:18to go away and I'm not even saying it should I mean you know and in some sense

0:12:23you know this guy is professional career as an example of that you know where yes

0:12:29we have class he is in his day job to write but it really does show you a min

0:12:33and and if you watch even just tuned in

0:12:37you know halfway through any random episode of one of these reality shows

0:12:41with a critical eye it you can really see just how the whole thing you know it

0:12:48really the the word reality need two quotes around it because it it how could

0:12:54it be you know like where these regular characters enter a room and somebody

0:12:58who's there are you know ostensibly meeting documentary style you know for

0:13:03real is already wearing a lot a lav mic you know it's like it's almost like how

0:13:10can you possibly believe that this is real if there are people there meeting

0:13:14you know in a restaurant or something have already been liked what I saw that

0:13:17the other day so it was like if you see if a random person that someone needs a

0:13:22reality show is already Mike for sound it's not a random person like oh well

0:13:26yes but you don't think the talented could tell that was the same thing with

0:13:31the Elan situation as someone pointed out a couple days afterwards said the

0:13:35picture where he posted the note with the glass of wine he couldn't have taken

0:13:38that cause I would have meant that he had gotten up it was standing next to

0:13:42her taking the photo before she whatever there's no way that would have worked

0:13:45like he doesn't make any sense it's like oh you're right it was internally

0:13:49inconsistent Nick Bilton that the new york times actually looking at flight

0:13:54schedules and so forth in correlating with tweets and decided it was nonsense

0:13:57just based on God cracked me up that's funny

0:14:01I thought it was my first sign of something set me off on it right away in

0:14:05my first thing was that maybe it's my ears I i dont know I've said this before

0:14:09Nash I worry a little bit and runs in my family that hearing loss and the man is

0:14:16sort of a problem so maybe it's just me but I have trouble like when when we sit

0:14:23like my family travels and Amy and I both take aisle seats and maybe Jonas

0:14:30sits in the middle next day me I have trouble hearing Amy across the aisle

0:14:34you know like if I'm seven sea and she's have indeed I I have trouble hearing her

0:14:41on this chip because you know on the plane because she doesn't want to talk

0:14:45real loud you know and he said she was I don't know five rows ahead of her three

0:14:51or four rows ahead of all yeah yeah it's really hard over here somebody even if

0:14:55somebody was really you know sort of being abusive towards the flight crew if

0:15:01she sitting five rows ahead of you it's really pretty heart plus the whole thing

0:15:06like it was repeated endlessly over and over and over again that she was Diane

0:15:10in 778 is a Windows so all this note passing nonsense it's a little bit more

0:15:18possible if it's like a 747 with it

0:15:21242 you know with two aisles does then you know I guess he could only have to

0:15:28reach over one person 7 be but most planes on domestic flights are not 747

0:15:36their you know their forget them not narrow but they called their be their

0:15:43main line but

0:15:4427 908 Alaska has an upgraded boeing that I really like to read the other day

0:15:49actually has room I could cross my legs but if it's a three

0:15:54three seats I'll three seats set up then you know it's really almost impossible

0:16:01to pass a note to somebody in seven people were preparing this credibly like

0:16:05it got turned into news cycle to the news incredibly fast without any actual

0:16:10documentary evidence except his tweets and people suppositions even though if

0:16:15you'd stop is Nick Bilton did or as you're thinking about it other people to

0:16:18look at the photos I anyone with any journalist should have taken their

0:16:25powers of observation and pointed out that this was very clearly shaken he was

0:16:29Prime actually curious if the guy himself was astonished that people took

0:16:33it is real because he had there are so many tiles yeah I think he did I think I

0:16:38don't think he was astonished I think he tried to fake it and he's get somebody

0:16:41else pointed out the history of the sort of thing yeah yeah but it really shows

0:16:46you what he thinks of as reality it's you know it's you know I guess it's what

0:16:51makes some good at his job that it makes me think that you know the bachelor

0:16:55there's probably you know what's the idea with The Bachelor and the

0:17:01Bachelorette there's like a hero character on the bad guy and then the

0:17:04bats right there was a woman and in a present them a dozen people of the

0:17:09opposite gender to pick from and each week they they kick one out that the

0:17:14person probably doesn't even kick them out you know that the show probably tell

0:17:18them who to pick based on you know who's who's the most popular you know that

0:17:23it's probably all you know as contrived as the whole thing would be if it were

0:17:26run on the up-and-up it's probably not even running even in this film films and

0:17:32TV too I think they have to they think they have to is that film that cannot

0:17:38several years ago

0:17:39good king of Congress 4th quarters about yeah it's a great movie

0:17:44competition to score the perfect on Konga yea and they're on the reserve

0:17:51villainous got billy who ran a restaurant in and had baby faked so high

0:17:56scores me but probably gotten in history is on the cover of newsweek or something

0:18:00in the eighties and his upcoming laid off school teacher who is playing in his

0:18:04garage and tops of the whole school high score so he's the hero you got the

0:18:10villain

0:18:11well there's a piece and I think it was Atlantics after the movie came out by a

0:18:14guy who'd been involved in the shooting of you said well the way he was depicted

0:18:19the kind of emphasized to make stuff up but they made him into a villain because

0:18:24they wanted to go in the film for people to root against them and actually is

0:18:27much more nuanced as everyone is life but it's hard to new film and TV often

0:18:32remove the nuance because you can't tell a story as well in those mediums without

0:18:36having you know what it really could without having without having

0:18:42identifiable people to root for and against time use part of human nature

0:18:45but it's also a lot of films are made perfectly but I think you know that

0:18:54stuff is not going to go away I think everybody watch it I think you should

0:18:58watch it with a giant grain of salt

0:19:01I do think I think it's and I do think that's to me is the interesting take

0:19:04away from this girl tweet Oaks thing is not just that his tweet thing was a hoax

0:19:09but what is it tell you about you know these reality shows that dominate TV you

0:19:17know major network TV today I saw another tweet a couple days ago from

0:19:22some number who who just posited that if you showed today's reality shows to

0:19:31someone from twenty years ago

0:19:35twenty-five years ago they would think it was tough from a dystopian science

0:19:39fiction future oh yea or the or they might also see also see it for the false

0:19:46front presents is a bit was the man who mistook his wife for a half hour sex

0:19:52book I think it's in the book where he talks about being an award where there

0:19:56are people who were fission and other people one group of people could not

0:20:02understand the meanings of words but they get here words literally only the

0:20:05other could not understand what words meant but they could hear the emotion

0:20:08behind its two different neurological conditions and he watched them watching

0:20:12ronald reagan deliver speeches and they were all laughing because reagan was a

0:20:16perfect melding his description at least I love being able to to live effectively

0:20:22in some combination but if you can cut out either the meaning or the emotional

0:20:27part it was transparent I have that feeling sometimes if you took somebody

0:20:31who hadn't watched TV in a bit of culture often in remote place a comeback

0:20:36twenty-five years later they watch reality TV said once everyone sees think

0:20:40these are these are made for TV movies really no no this is supposed to be real

0:20:43did say but it's so fake you know and we've become conditions to what we

0:20:48believe reality is supposed to be as portrayed in those and we accept it more

0:20:52fully as reality everything is world wide Wrestling foundation whether it's

0:20:56called right now it's all it's all wrestling horrible people right I always

0:21:04think back and the first thought I had when I saw that tweet and who it was but

0:21:09if you know I apologize for not remembering

0:21:13that first thing I thought of was that show that was on all the TVs in Robocop

0:21:22was that that creepy old earn in a busy guy who was always surrounded by like

0:21:30really cranky models and and the matter what have many had that catch phrase I'd

0:21:37buy that for a dollar it's the best thing and you know that dates back to

0:21:41the club with story the marching morons great science fiction story you can find

0:21:47online for the nineteen fifties the phrase there was what you pay a quarter

0:21:50for that it was it was today and that story it's an ad guy convinces the

0:21:57supposedly stupidest people in society to board rocket ships that land on the

0:22:01Sun go straight to the Sun to get rid of all the excess population of idiots

0:22:06that's that's kinda nineteen fifties ideas story I also thought of the old

0:22:11Steven Kane novella I think one of the 10 day under a pseudonym Richard that

0:22:19the running man which they turned into a schwarzenegger movie but sort of film

0:22:23the novella was a lot less schwarzeneggar II and little bit but it

0:22:28was really kind of spot on about where TV's going that it's it is sort of

0:22:34feeling now you know obviously the the King twist was that they were actually

0:22:39trying to kill the protectionists and that is not going to happen but it does

0:22:46I was a season of Survivor much they put people with no clean water supply

0:22:50braiding parasites on the island so you know nobody died but we did have a

0:22:57medical crews nearby for the parasites but there it does sort of feed into the

0:23:09sort of dark side of our psyche that that led to you know the Roman Coliseum

0:23:15right where ya

0:23:17you know as long as you can brand the people as some sort of other you know

0:23:23watching them destroy their lives you can take solace you know you do take

0:23:27pleasure in it right

0:23:29well they're just you know trashy housewives from beverly hills so you

0:23:35know watching you know one of them you know drink herself into rehab on TV in

0:23:42front of the whole nation you know somehow you take pleasure in it

0:23:47supposed 26 vacillation gets ratings and it gets page views and we are denying

0:23:53something about ourselves as a society or humanity if we if we don't accept

0:23:59that but pandering to it we don't have to agree to pander to it I think that's

0:24:03been that dividing culture between highbrow and lowbrow is high bro is

0:24:06we're not going to pander you although bruh people should lift yourself up to

0:24:10our level so that you can appreciate this fine culture that's actually what

0:24:13you should be watching and lowbrow is look we're just enjoying the stuff it's

0:24:18not serious get off your high horse but the gap to get bigger and bigger for

0:24:23people and people who feel like there's a cultural a loss I mean people saying

0:24:27you know they can look at people running the 17th century about terrible popular

0:24:31music and entertainment and only the good stuff you could find in the salons

0:24:34and those idiots in the streets are are morons and I'm sure you can find a Roman

0:24:39times before like whenever there was culture there is a divide but it somehow

0:24:42seems more obvious to us now because it's so exposed we can all see and find

0:24:46the worst stuff and see exactly how many people are obsessed by reading the worst

0:24:53of which were used to not be able to eat enough to know that as much overtime was

0:24:57already on the New York Daily News still exists in all those are out there that

0:25:01used to be the battle between the new york times in the tabloid papers so it's

0:25:05just more obvious more and more people we know that we wouldn't think with

0:25:10spread it are passing on this stuff too so it gets in our face compared to

0:25:14something BuzzFeed even know BuzzFeed occasionally has really good features

0:25:18they had a really good feature I read about a young man from

0:25:25Utah who who disappeared in China at the end of his mission and his family spent

0:25:29has spent the last few years trying to figure out what happened to him in their

0:25:32best gas and they really have you know some pretty nothing confirming it but

0:25:37some pretty good circumstantial evidence that he might have been kidnapped by

0:25:40North Korean secret agents and taken to North Korea implausible sadly at

0:25:47BuzzFeed you know which you know it's not their bread and butter

0:25:50you know but there they are paying for some feature writing everybody was

0:25:55compared to compared to most of our BuzzFeed publishes though something like

0:25:59the New York Post New York Daily News is relatively high bruh today in the the

0:26:05issue the issue in the long form journalism trend is that a lot of sites

0:26:09that do that do you know they make it up in in volume so BuzzFeed you know they

0:26:13their same thing with Huffington Post to some extent or politically no different

0:26:19but you need Business Insider probably in this camp to his they need billions

0:26:24of very very very low paying pageviews to have enough money to afford to do

0:26:29stuff that will get higher ad rates because it's higher quality but requires

0:26:35more of investment and BuzzFeed certainly huge war chest of of private

0:26:39investment and they certainly have been perfecting the bulk model and they've

0:26:45been hiring more and more serious journalism the episode of Top and the

0:26:49news reporting a long for men and are doing good work there much as I hate to

0:26:53say it but if they're in and I think actually is producing features now

0:26:58that's new

0:27:00all the sites out there that produce any kind of volume are also not trying to be

0:27:05too long form work

0:27:08but let's get back to that i'm gonna take a break right now then do the talk

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0:29:59find out more so anyway I started the Showtime the balls you have only got to

0:30:06the magazine here also still writing for speaking a magazine The Economist

0:30:11talk about you know doing it the right way and shooting you know for top tier

0:30:16journalism and and analysis

0:30:19you've got your podcast the new disrupters that weekly die every week

0:30:27every week its its head so I it's slightly nonperishable sometimes two

0:30:33batches at a time to celebrate New Year this is a year of episode David skipped

0:30:38one episodes i dont 50 51 52 is this week on the anniversary of when

0:30:44recording this issue congratulations and thank you it's so much fun it's just I

0:30:49love dealing with creative people like this background art work in journalism I

0:30:54love collaborating on my favorite thing is finding people that like to work with

0:30:57and figuring out something to do with them and so the podcast every week I

0:31:01gotta talk to new and interesting people who are just

0:31:04try to find a pollyanna but I like people who are excited and happy about

0:31:08what they do in that that kind of my Twitter problem to his people who are

0:31:11sad sacks I tend to unfollow like even if the people who otherwise likely I

0:31:15don't want relentless negativity I don't need relentless positivity either but so

0:31:20the podcast I find people who have just are just full of this incredible

0:31:24creativity and enthusiasm and engage with life and it sometimes it's you know

0:31:30really off-base tough and sometimes it's like you know these people are making a

0:31:34book or they have a business lady whatever but it's it's so much fun I'm

0:31:39on you were Twitter page

0:31:42Glenn F G with 2 N's says right now just under your profile page

0:31:51a hundred and eighty thousand and 91 tweets yet so crazy to not only forty

0:32:00thousand years I talked to be able to Twitter is not optimized for mentions so

0:32:06I will get blocked on Twitter during active things going on and 95% of what

0:32:12I'm treating its not you know public it starts with an at sign so only people

0:32:16following me and the other person CSI think of it as having a conversation and

0:32:21Twitter can set against you so I'll be going back and forth with someone you

0:32:25know Kwasi publicly but nobody on my own and my followers see unless they

0:32:29happened to intersect with the other person so for some people are being very

0:32:32talky you know if if you and i have a similar graph then I'm very talky for

0:32:37going back and forth but everybody else they don't see it all they've got you

0:32:40know configured whatever so it's weird in some ways I'm really prolific other

0:32:45ways it's like well this is my child to all this is my public chat

0:32:50so let me ask you this with the magazine you the magazine is still completely

0:32:57funded by subscriptions is that correct

0:32:59yeah I think we'll see the have to put a proviso in because we start doing some

0:33:05work with medium medium dot com because they are doing their own experiments

0:33:10with what people are gonna pay for content or look at for content so

0:33:14they're paying some publishers including me to develop some new content that

0:33:18appears exclusively their first so there's not it's not this you know

0:33:22wonderful giant pot of money they're throwing up so some money for the

0:33:27magazine could ostensibly said to be coming from the net after AP writers for

0:33:31for that but it's a pretty tiny amount relative to the subscription revenue

0:33:35know and there's no advertising medium which is why it makes it a reasonable

0:33:39place to work with where I don't have to change the model of what I'm doing are

0:33:43worried about people being irritated by having ads in one place or another sort

0:33:47of another publishing platform drying out and they're subsidizing that which

0:33:51is kinda cool but if they don't have bad what they don't charge for access than

0:33:56where where are they ever going to get money how is that not just burnin burnin

0:34:00up a pile of venture capital of course the team's bank

0:34:06well from what I can tell it's funny they don't play it too close to this and

0:34:10i think im just talked about it in public a bit too is they're

0:34:14experimenting that I mean this is this is kind of the Twitter model is 25 years

0:34:18before they ever started doing advertising or doing anything with money

0:34:22and you know these are the same as the same folks behind that essentially it's

0:34:27the same folks and their their funding it i think as a key we don't know what's

0:34:33gonna happen next nobody does this is the time to noodle and we're gonna blow

0:34:36some money on new link but they're trying to land the high end

0:34:40of the spectrum which is yet another weather is great for readers things how

0:34:43it works out publications and investors you know to be determined but they're

0:34:48paying for content internally I mean they made a blogging platform so this

0:34:51thing is confusing house medium used to be one thing when it launched it was

0:34:56like a place where people who were invited could use a new century blogging

0:35:00platform that has a really great editor editing interface to post essays and

0:35:05stuff right that was when it launched as in you have to be invited in it was a

0:35:09little rudimentary but it was very attractive way to rate then it became

0:35:13well more people are being invited then it became anyone now can go sign up with

0:35:17Twitter or via Twitter account authenticate themselves and post

0:35:21whatever they want to medium and so it's a blogging platform right and you can

0:35:23export all your stuff in a format you can bring somewhere else but you know

0:35:27that you own your words a non-exclusive license no outs but now its expanded a

0:35:33several months ago they started hiring editors and they have they assign our

0:35:37articles they hired on my friend Matt Bors editorial cartoonist is there on

0:35:43staff guy and he runs all his stuff first areas to original work for them

0:35:46he's contracted people like rich Stevens and Tom tomorrow and so forth to do

0:35:51original and reprint work on the site so now they're an internal operations

0:35:55cartoons and long-form journalism and other stuff with editors and in the

0:36:00third thing is what they're doing with me and a few other publications where

0:36:04they're subsidizing content in the interest of us creating new high quality

0:36:08stuff that meets no good stringent editorial requirements but they don't

0:36:12have to pay for our editorial operations they don't build themselves they're just

0:36:17paying a fee and we're posting stuff and we're and we're seeing what happens so I

0:36:22think it's a great multi tier experiment and they keep improving the editing

0:36:26experience you like I have worked with a lot of content management systems CMS is

0:36:31over the air and they're all lawful and median is the best here must have ever

0:36:35worked with its not very flexible in that you're a sort of like Apple like

0:36:39medium a lot in common you know a lot of choices but the choices are generally

0:36:44good if you don't like your stock

0:36:47but generally like him so let me know when it launched the very few things you

0:36:52can do in keno but it was hard to make a bad presentation in Keynote like a truly

0:36:56ugly PowerPoint presentation the default setting up our phone is ugly and bad the

0:37:01default setting aquino is attractive in reasonable but it's still hard to

0:37:04communicate to work in Keynote like you do anywhere so mediums default is very

0:37:10nicely presented very straightforward minimal formatting and it's a delightful

0:37:14distraction free place to write as well as a writer I don't like writing in 30

0:37:20mins Iranian BBEdit mostly and medium is the closest thing to writing and kind of

0:37:24a stripped down at her as you can get but you can throw images and you can do

0:37:27limited formatting so that's kind of the thing is they've built a really great

0:37:31CMS in which the backend rating administration is very very very close

0:37:36to what the front end is when you switch from editing to publishing the

0:37:40differences really tiny and that's kind of awesome it's very WYSIWYG very direct

0:37:46and that is huge its own self and then they're trying all these models to see

0:37:50what gets people to read and then I see you at some point you know they will

0:37:54figure out what it is do they put ads on like the decks are really unobtrusive

0:37:58effective but don't feel like crazy banner advertising or do they go to a

0:38:03subscription model or do they don't know what to do but I i'm glad that there is

0:38:07some real money in 'cause newspapers are known to the conventional journalism

0:38:11sources are really experimenting in this radical away with what the future of a

0:38:16reading experiences I mean this is almost a natural outgrowth of what

0:38:19markers ideas have been with Instapaper and with other regulators services about

0:38:23you know what what people want a real crafted on nonsense and medium is that

0:38:28it's no craft no ads and very very straightforward reading in every

0:38:33platform you're gonna lose everybody's home lose if if your ideas what does

0:38:38everybody want to read online what can we make that everybody is going to want

0:38:41to read because no not going to do it and if you want to say well what is

0:38:45most whether most people gonna wanna read well then you're going to end up

0:38:50with some crap BuzzFeed right but what are what is an untapped or under under

0:38:57underserved market for what some people want to read online chats you know about

0:39:05you know good stuff but Jake what's the new yorker be like if the new yorker

0:39:10didn't have its legacy don't have the same quality of rating I mean I don't

0:39:14want to promote medium as being the new yorker but that you know they're more on

0:39:18that and do things and people will play the New Yorker is not really ever been a

0:39:21very profitable publication have heard was on its own it wasn't and then

0:39:25communists are subsidized into four ways for years I think it actually has made

0:39:29money for a while

0:39:30partly because by reducing expenses like everybody else but but i dont the New

0:39:35Yorker the New Yorker is not like this great engineer newspapers used to make

0:39:4025 to 35 percent profit we talked about last time a huge profit margins The New

0:39:44Yorker is probably made you know one percent profit over its hundred ninety

0:39:49years of existence so that harkens back to the lake don't do really great most

0:39:56of the time really great journalism really interesting stuff that you read

0:40:00is not massively profitable but it should pay everyone involved so the new

0:40:04yorker may not return money to investors but everyone involved indicates that

0:40:08reporters get paid well the staff the editors you know what did you say

0:40:11whether it's like the heritage of the new yorker what did you just say

0:40:13something about like you said it was perfect it was the way that the New

0:40:22Yorker has such a great legacy I don't know I don't even know that's how

0:40:28they've built on that and you know and you know the new yorker still looks like

0:40:33the new york oh yeah and I mean that's the thing is they are doing what they

0:40:36called digital replica publisher in this you know this gets us into a different

0:40:40issues will call back to the magazine so about your 97 or 98 percent of the

0:40:47funding is

0:40:48net revenues coming from subscriptions or it comes from and there's a very

0:40:57short position I bring up the new yorker because in this case and the whole new

0:41:02standard Apple newsstand thing is that the new yorker and a lot of other paper

0:41:07publications because of how newspaper and magazine auditing is done for

0:41:13circulation they do a digital replica which is the kind of Adobe or other

0:41:18loaded interface right that's that's again that's what brought Marco into

0:41:22making the magazine the first place was 780 megabyte downloads of the new yorker

0:41:26for an issue on the iPad but they have to produce something that's very similar

0:41:31in form to the print issue to get auditing at the advertising and that's

0:41:36the model even though they're selling subscriptions that you only so big on a

0:41:40couple months ago they put to this report which they showed some of the

0:41:44numbers from the audited circulation the digital replica and in print circulation

0:41:48of various publications including the top 10 in your so forth and it turns out

0:41:54they don't have very many subscriptions I mean the record because a million

0:41:57print subscriptions and $100,000 only replica subscriptions and that's not a

0:42:04lot and you are most welcome the news then they come from the New Yorker's

0:42:07website where they could come from another app so I was already a print

0:42:11subscriber yet you can you get a free rate your print subscriber lot of

0:42:15publications you're not going to do stances subscribe so Apple had started

0:42:19the newsstand conceivably as a way to take some of the really huge amounts of

0:42:23money spent on periodicals bring it in house there take the 30% cut and save

0:42:29the industry because they were going to make it easy for people to subscribe

0:42:34losses farmers will come back marking would be cheaper and we were thirty

0:42:37percent because Apple is handling all this and it was a much stick your

0:42:42experience and blah blah that's obviously turned out not to be true but

0:42:45think it's think it's clear that Apple's not the savior of the book industry or

0:42:48the periodical industry and it's led to you know sort of where they are today

0:42:53with newsstand

0:42:54the magazine is actually one of the more popular publications and we should

0:42:59induce today we should buy top we show up in the top grossing list sometimes

0:43:03very close to the top and we should not if the other publications are doing as

0:43:08well as they should in selling on newsstands as their primary place for

0:43:12the digital subscriptions to purchase I say I still think and I think this is

0:43:17one of those like sort of its meta analysis but I think it's sort of under

0:43:22represented is on the day the original iPad was introduced at that event and it

0:43:31kind of garnered a lease in some quarters especially in the more

0:43:36mainstream I think that you know I certainly got it I i really was pressed

0:43:41by the original iPad and I think a lot of other tack sort of public or at least

0:43:49the people who get what Apple does very impressive right off the bat but the

0:43:52collective response in the mainstream media was sort of it's just a big part

0:44:01of that was definitely because leading up to the announcement on everybody knew

0:44:09was going to be a tablet right there was four months in advance there was Apple's

0:44:13working on a tablet working on the tablet and then the day before the event

0:44:16everybody knew where it thought they knew everybody was pretty darn sure that

0:44:21what this event was for it was this tablet tablet but part of that was that

0:44:28it was also widely predicted that the tablet was going to save the publishing

0:44:36industry save the newspaper and magazine issue you know he's going to do for

0:44:40newspapers and magazines what the iPod did for news and I know that in

0:44:45hindsight lots and lots of music executive still say they still think

0:44:49that you know they would be better off without it because you know the revenues

0:44:53are still lower than they were at the peak of the CD

0:44:56hero but that you know I think rational analysis will tell you that the CD era

0:45:01was an anomaly because they you know right up until now Napster they were

0:45:07charging people seventeen eighteen dollars four hits CD and people were

0:45:11buying them just to get like the two songs that they wanted oh well there's

0:45:15also a creeper CDs were repurchased oh yes yes yes yes

0:45:18global right when people all those casualties were thrown out the tapes you

0:45:24know for me you know I'm young enough their original musical excellence

0:45:27cassette tapes and I bought three bottles lot of stuff on CD

0:45:31you know I remember you know for me in this is totally true I remember thinking

0:45:37as you know when I was in college

0:45:41significant part of my net worth was my CDs and I didn't have used CD collection

0:45:47I had I don't know maybe 100 to 200 estimated somewhere between 100 and 200

0:45:54compact discs but you could resell them right you can you know it was a huge

0:45:59thing in the nineties where do you go to a used CD shop and you could resell the

0:46:04you could sell them for roughly 10 bucks you know give or take depending on what

0:46:09it was you know five to 10 bucks if it was in good shape so if I had a hundred

0:46:14CDs I could if I needed the money I could go and sell them and you know walk

0:46:20out of the store with $1500 right and that was actually a huge amount of my

0:46:25net worth I had had a checking account of my parents occasionally put some

0:46:30money into I had a Mac LLC that you know by the time I was you know my third or

0:46:39fourth year of college at greatly did you know depreciated in value and I had

0:46:44my CDs you know and I had a stereo system to play them on that's really all

0:46:49I had that if I really needed money that's all I had to to to sell but I you

0:46:54know the thing that was probably worth the most by the time I graduated where

0:46:57the CDs which is crazy if you think about there's no rational and irrational

0:47:01world a 22 year old who likes to listen to music shouldn't have to

0:47:06have you know to $3,000 tied up in their music collection ridiculous but that's

0:47:12what they want to do anyway

0:47:13music executives today will argue some will argue that Apple you know that if

0:47:17it hadn't been for those jerks at Apple they've somehow come up with something

0:47:20that would have kept the the golden era going but I think rational people would

0:47:23agree Apple did save them from a world where everything had gone free and this

0:47:28is a receipt with cable TV too is like the cable industry that thing that

0:47:32freaks him out the most is unbundling because nobody wants all those channels

0:47:35nobody wants to be $1 4050 shells they want to pay twenty thirty dollars for

0:47:40like seven channels but anyway there was this undercurrent and I mean it was

0:47:44literally you know there were people talking about it before they let us into

0:47:47the event you know I was there you know the other press people then that was

0:47:51widely talked about it what are they going to do it you know I wonder if are

0:47:54you know people who worked for newspapers and stuff were wondering you

0:47:58know where it is my paper gonna get involved with this whatever and when you

0:48:01know the event came and finished without any kind of announcement of anything

0:48:05like it no new newspaper I mean I guess they had the the New York Times app

0:48:10right was demoed at the event but they were like we were like we it's an IHOP

0:48:15though it's not a feeling like it's not a fan and I think that fueled the nav

0:48:20response to the iPad because these you know from people who work at these

0:48:23publications who are hoping that Apple they they kind of went into it with this

0:48:26perspective of house Apple gonna save my publication I'm worried about my job and

0:48:32the event came and went with no no no word about it and and it I think it

0:48:37fueled that initial poor response to the iPad because they were so you know and

0:48:43it's only natural if you know if you're worried about the future of your own job

0:48:47and your own industry that's you know and it still does the case today if

0:48:52you're you know somebody who's especially if you're a little bit older

0:48:56and more established already established in you thought even just a few years ago

0:49:00that you know you had a career for the rest of your working years

0:49:04it's not just that you know that your publications gonna go under and you have

0:49:09to go to some other publication the worry is that if the industry you know

0:49:13shrivels there you know there won't be anybody else to go to

0:49:16yes not it's not irrational because there's I mean this is the problem the

0:49:20disruption problem is when you have these huge changes in the economy in the

0:49:25past I would say pre digital there's still the issue of moving atoms around

0:49:29so you figure out a new way to make atomic thing better like this process

0:49:34shaves eighty percent of the cost off people were still pay used to pay the

0:49:38same like you didn't suck all the money out of the system will usually did as

0:49:42you sucked some of the money into a new segment of industry new companies the

0:49:47old ones might collapse and you have bankruptcies and stuff like that but all

0:49:51the major go away right

0:49:52the publishing industry disruption is that because because I think bad

0:49:58decisions and bad ways of thinking the nineteen nineties that everything should

0:50:01be that this isthat misreading of store-brand hear it all the time is

0:50:04Stewart Brand said information wants to be free he was not this is that libres

0:50:08vs gratis libre versus freedom of thought right here is versus free as in

0:50:17freedom yeah and so his statement if you read it more carefully in context was

0:50:22that you should be able to have access to information not that you shouldn't

0:50:26pay for it i mean a course he was he was advocating more availability of

0:50:30information at no cost but also that what the availability of information in

0:50:35general and he is a publisher resold information he wasn't giving it away so

0:50:40I don't know why this infected things but I don't think it was people buy into

0:50:44I think the publishing industry simply did not understand the internet thought

0:50:48it was a fair because they've gone through video taxed in whatever you know

0:50:51the executive

0:50:54all these things are like the internet a lot more people but it's ultimately

0:50:57there's no money there no one's gonna care and its gonna come and go so we'll

0:51:00put some time money into it there are people who love for thought like doctors

0:51:04at a spot called news and comics a few years ago

0:51:08he was one of the voices in the wilderness did some smart things but i

0:51:11think i dont wanna say he was advocating walls in the nineteen nineties you know

0:51:15it was not that we should all be paying for all the journalism out there is a

0:51:19publisher who has a publication I want you to pay I understand there are

0:51:22different philosophies in ads can support but like 95% of the money from

0:51:27advertising locked up in these Kwasi local monopolies publishing some

0:51:32national publishing markets where the only venue where advertisers could reach

0:51:36people in print were through these very specific ways that had extremely high

0:51:40inflated high-profit methods that got sucked totally out it wasn't replaced

0:51:46with much rate online advertising is a huge industry but it's so dispersed it

0:51:51so spread so thin that even though its many tens of billions of dollars a year

0:51:55now it didn't go back to the previous high mark eg keepers but but advertisers

0:52:01have found much more efficiency rate so the efficiency and the disbursement the

0:52:05distribution of people's attention at the same time just such summit many

0:52:11others no clear path for how to fund but was funded for you know hundred-plus

0:52:17years ago that journalism can exist in the same form because the advertising

0:52:21money just simply isn't coming back at that intensity per read her and the

0:52:28subscription model is still developing whether people are willing to pay enough

0:52:31and I'm the magazine is ongoing experiment I don't think of it as a

0:52:35successful business I'll be honest is a very interesting thing for me to do as

0:52:39an entrepreneur but I think of it as an ongoing experiment in how people read

0:52:43and what they're willing to pay for and I feel like I'm on the front lines of

0:52:46the cutting edge of understanding that because we're trying to do something

0:52:52very independent that's new that's a very much of the internet born digital

0:52:57and yet we're looking to this old model of something so well and this ties this

0:53:04relates right back to what we were talking about earlier in the show where

0:53:08you know let's call it clicked right

0:53:10empty garbage has no lasting value but generates a lot of

0:53:18of traffic you know newspapers and magazines aren't even historically done

0:53:29an incentive that there's always some fluff right there you know I like comics

0:53:34I love that I used to love the comic side when I was a daily newspaper reader

0:53:37love the comics page but let's face it that's not serious that's not what

0:53:41people talk about newspapers is serious institutions

0:53:45you know the comics page is not it you know the New York Times famously does

0:53:50not have a comics page you know there's this society pages you know a lot of

0:53:57newspapers have gossip columns stuff like that the thing is cuz it was all

0:54:04bundled in you had to buy either you are a subscriber who got the whole thing

0:54:08every day where you bought a single copy every day you bought the whole thing and

0:54:12so the fact that expensive investigative journalism something where you put a

0:54:18team of two reporters to investigate whether the mayor's office has been

0:54:24taking illegal contributions from construction company in a sort of thing

0:54:29that local newspapers are really the only institution that can uncover that

0:54:33sort of thing

0:54:34the sports scores for the high schools are in that was a huge reason the people

0:54:38at one point right right and so you know there might be a lot more people who

0:54:45checked the scores on sports page then who read the city hall reporters daily

0:54:55filings but you know it was you know it was all of the bundle and it wasn't it

0:55:01wouldn't matter if that City Hall reporting costs more than you know

0:55:06paying an intern to to type the high school basketball scores as they came in

0:55:11you know it was just considered part of the institution whereas now with this

0:55:15page 3 model where you can see what's making the money just across the whole

0:55:20thing and and steers the institution in the direction of where the Patriots are

0:55:26coming in everything becomes vertical in this market rate is an incredibly crass

0:55:32pageview acquiring like lowest-common-denominator period stuff

0:55:35is all one vertical at all

0:55:37Business Insider for business news at all p.m. post for sort of political

0:55:42gossip it's all BuzzFeed for just nonsense right where you know or even

0:55:45though I can haz hamburger hamburger which is never was never intended

0:55:51pretend to be news or anything like that they're all these verticals for that

0:55:55kind of common denominator that used to help justify or or boy up the profits at

0:56:03the news of vertical for comics right there are different comic safety of all

0:56:07these web comics artists many of them making her or even a very good living

0:56:12the huge range of people there who they would previously have to be in a paper

0:56:16in syndicated in most money would go to the newspaper this indicates they make

0:56:19it directly right to have them to then you have this investigative part of the

0:56:25features partly investigated port the sports part all verticals the trouble is

0:56:29the long form investigative part doesn't really pay like you can't hope all cars

0:56:35just sold or sort of Kwasi acquire booze NSFW Corp his publication into Pando

0:56:44daily in like you know we all unite and will have different feelings up into a

0:56:48daily and its kinda in bed with its investors in terms of like writing about

0:56:52companies that funded it whatever so there's that whole thing but W i

0:56:56subscribe to his very interesting good publication and it was essentially the

0:57:01investigative arm of the newspaper or magazine here and he's really long super

0:57:06in-depth features and they paid people fairly well for their staff they ran

0:57:10three million dollars and they could not think they had several thousand

0:57:14subscribers by the end which is nothing in terms of being able to produce the

0:57:18revenue you need for the investors investing in you so don't say that you

0:57:22can any of what I'm doing I still modest numbers describes room during a

0:57:25sustainable and I'm trying to branch out into different publishing methods they

0:57:30feel like the newsstand is not viable as it was brand new books and other things

0:57:35but it's that in the past each part with subsidized the other and maybe you would

0:57:40do this incredible investigative piece and newsweek maritime in time have the

0:57:45cover story by Steven Brill about medical bills

0:57:48yes yes so time could have sold I don't know if this is true but I'm could

0:57:52actually sold a million copies on the newsstand more because this was a big

0:57:56you know this is that kind of thing that gets up much buzz actually used to drive

0:58:01newsstand sales they go back to the prices they were print more copies so

0:58:05you could come out with a great newspaper story or great magazine story

0:58:08and actually route recoup some of the expense sometimes by selling more copies

0:58:13just know that now a million to 10 million extra page views might be tens

0:58:19of thousands of dollars is not hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars

0:58:22there's a mismatch now between what used to all be grouped as like one

0:58:27publication and all these different verticals each of which may not be

0:58:30sustainable separately and maybe they have to get squeezed back together and

0:58:35that's why does he does the high-end features and stuff to do in and the

0:58:40lowbrow which is the million other billion pagey things they seem to be

0:58:44trying to two tigers back together to glue them together to make both ends

0:58:47work that's come back to that wanted to ask you a few questions about a few more

0:58:53questions about the newsstand magazine speaking of which I'm gonna take a break

0:58:57here doing I had read but I also absolutely I must do a nephew us to

0:59:03follow up from last week's show with with folks where I was talking about

0:59:09apples bunny suit the one where they torched guide the Intel guy in a bunny

0:59:15suit I said it was for the g5

0:59:17to not John Siracusa very plainly corrected me it was that was from the G

0:59:25three PowerMax which were so far so all that appealing to the adam has shown

0:59:32that but it was actually when Apple is still building beige beige boxes from

0:59:371998 so I guess the the candy-colored IMAX route but the equivalent industrial

0:59:45design PowerMax weren't a really old what's-his-name dreyfus was the narrator

0:59:54let me take a break and tell you that another great returns sponsored to the

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1:01:04have them grouped together by that tag of another different discrete items you

1:01:11can add rooms like little mini lose so if you're in a bigger organization you

1:01:17can have them

1:01:18primary for the whole organization company and many clues for each of the

1:01:24teams that they come very easy the whole thing as drag and drop and it features

1:01:30responsive design everything looks great on the phone on tablets are you know

1:01:36thirty in sentiment displays and it looks good too they've got beautiful

1:01:39funds from type kit so you've got the Adobe Type Library right at your finger

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1:02:28user for free and when you see how good it is then you can start pain where do

1:02:32you go to find out more easy

1:02:35glue software dot com slash the talk show and that'll let you know you came

1:02:40from the show

1:02:41igloo software dot com slash the talk show so lets try to figure out what the

1:02:50hell is going on with with newsstand I have some ideas so

1:02:57I guess affectively newsstand is what a lot of people in terms of a bowl it's

1:03:03what what what I think everybody was hoping for the first day the iPad was

1:03:08announced which is here is our meaning Apple's solution to how publishers can

1:03:15take advantage of this platform iOS and iTunes Store where people are spending

1:03:24money right i mean that's the goal it's apples solution to publishers who want

1:03:31to make money from iOS users yeah and they they special case i mean that's

1:03:37kinda programmers is they said ok you know you still think we're not making a

1:03:43delivery format for your not like a Kindle where you make a movie or or

1:03:48we're not like I books where you make you know and ePub file right now we're

1:03:53more sophisticated like we want you to take advantage of this platform and that

1:03:56was you know I think publishers like ok you know you're giving us a showcase and

1:04:00we have to investments anyway we don't want to just publishing pubs and give us

1:04:04control we want to do new things so it seemed like a reasonable deal and they

1:04:08were like ok

1:04:09initial deal was an evil you linked to Mr Coaker pins that say a few months ago

1:04:15little October in Iowa 7 the final straw for newsstand and he runs it does I'm

1:04:20repeat everything cuz you should read this great article everyone should I

1:04:23took it to heart but there were like seven he's at least seven unique

1:04:27behaviors that publishers were given in the newsstand initially and one of them

1:04:32was you can change the cover of the issue you can update your screen

1:04:35captures and iTunes every issue not just with new dot releases a nap you the

1:04:39special place you know you can do either of you could download in the background

1:04:42there all these things that you could do that were publication oriented lake so

1:04:47that people using iPad or iPhone with look at the newsstand listing was always

1:04:52front center where you can move the fake folder somewhere but you couldn't hide

1:04:56inside another folder it showed little tiny tiny tiny icons which in retina or

1:05:00not too bad

1:05:02of the publication in the coverage would change so you know and had issue had

1:05:05background downloads

1:05:08as you could you know if your publication was relatively big nothing's

1:05:12worse like let's say you know whatever the reason doesn't say whether it's a

1:05:16good idea but if you're if he'd issue is a hundred megabytes which is not that

1:05:20uncommon but some publications and if it's really truly photographic heavy

1:05:26maybe it has to be but either way nothing is worse than seeing how to read

1:05:30the new copy of National Geographic and you tap the thing and download and if

1:05:36you're out and about out of the house not on wifi you know you may not even be

1:05:40able to get it or if you do you might risk going over you know your data limit

1:05:44so how was I think mike's the sort of thing so it if you could download in the

1:05:50background was a huge win and the only way you could do it was to be a

1:05:53newsstand for a while or to Lila seven that's what I mean I you know based on

1:05:58the way that Apple is talking to book publishers ahead of time it's clear they

1:06:00talked till tons of periodical publishers got them started made sure

1:06:04that people their magazines were on board and you know they told him a 30%

1:06:07cut thing I'm sure but but there were plenty of stuff available for the iPad

1:06:11pretty quickly from major magazines and newspapers and I'm sure they listen

1:06:17Apple does listens and people think Apple does not listen to its customers

1:06:21or partners it listens it's a sort of like you know you pray to God is no me

1:06:25say yes right is always listening that's the very doubtful but the newsstand was

1:06:31looked to me like it was a a bunch of things where they had actually listen

1:06:36consulted and come up with something that was intended to benefit both sides

1:06:40and my take is that it clearly has not worked out for Apple and publishers have

1:06:46clearly not walked away from it but walked back from in a way that Apple is

1:06:52not getting the kind of return it wants from it because Apple has not I would

1:06:56say improved the newsstand it's made its utility as a specific destination worse

1:07:02and I was seven it's particularly bad it sort of ignored it's kind of like let's

1:07:06just forget about it and it's widely complained about a seat on Twitter I see

1:07:10it in my email from during fireball readers widely complained about

1:07:15is something that you can't hide you know that there's an awful lot of people

1:07:19who don't have anything in there newsstand and just you know I don't say

1:07:27obsessive-compulsive but just you know fussy enough you know it does nothing

1:07:32wrong with that being fussy and wanting to have your homescreens arranged just

1:07:37so right that's sort of the mindset that attracts people to iOS in the first

1:07:41place that you care about details so yeah I've got at the end you know my

1:07:45first two homes granger are organized just the way I want them and then pretty

1:07:49much screens to through whatever or 334 whatever are just a junk drawer of apps

1:07:54that I searched for it I need them but I can totally understand the mindset of

1:07:59someone who just want one or two screens of just the things they use and want

1:08:03some organized just so and it just bothers these people that you can't get

1:08:07rid of their right to die I see even more people talking about why I wish I

1:08:11could get rid of newsstand completely then talking about anything that

1:08:15actually in which is a problem in nice the change of Iowa seven so part of it

1:08:20is you can hide the newsstand icon now you can throw it away you can't believe

1:08:23a lot of them but they were seven is the newsstand was deemphasized importance

1:08:28you can put inside the folder you no longer see the tiny tiny icons which had

1:08:33more of a cue for people then I realized based on what I hear from readers they

1:08:36forget because they don't see the tiny icon changes the brain is an amazing

1:08:40thing if you subscribe to publications and I was 6 your every time you fired up

1:08:46its on your home screen of your second screen but you know you you look and you

1:08:49go oh that's different your brain knows that even the other can't even make out

1:08:52the detail at you know 200 pixels tall you know it's different and you top or

1:08:58there's a blue dot or whatever there's some indication I was seven that's gone

1:09:02so people interested are telling me they don't even notice the issues changed I

1:09:06was seven Notifications as to other publications but I'm only every other

1:09:10week people who save it and then you can hide entirely which is everyone's which

1:09:14is fine

1:09:15some people want to do that Apple wanted them to do that but it also is that

1:09:18thing of lake

1:09:19be emphasizing its importance to Apple the fact you can hide it is a user

1:09:23requests it's great they're doing it because people don't want to use it

1:09:26completed now but it also shows that it's not important enough to Apple to

1:09:29irritate people by making it stay on the home screen so it's sort of like the

1:09:33congress I get it it's it's a problematic design on both ends because

1:09:38if you don't use it you know you have to do something to get rid of it and now

1:09:41they've added feature you can but then if you do like if say the magazine is

1:09:46one of your favorite apps or if you read the New York Times app which is a news

1:09:51stand up every day if that's how you start your day every day three New York

1:09:55Time's Up you can't you know you can't put that app icon on your home screen or

1:10:01in your dog has to be permanently it's enforced that it's one level deep in and

1:10:08it's even worse in my opinion on iOS because it's such a hot you know

1:10:15conceptually the design is so flat it's like it's really and it's one of the

1:10:20strengths i think is one of the reasons I S has proven to be so popular with the

1:10:24general public is that there is no hierarchy by the fall right or I guess

1:10:30there is a guess they do actually put a folder in there I think they changed at

1:10:34some point there is at least one folder I get a brand new factory fresh OS

1:10:40install but it's certainly deemphasized an end you know i think thats the

1:10:45strength of violence because I think hierarchy is a huge problem even one

1:10:50level of hierarchy is a huge problem for most people because if they don't see it

1:10:54it's not there

1:10:55yeah it's it's way out of sight out of mind is true in people's attention is

1:10:58very scarce they have a lot of things they can do in once you start routinely

1:11:02forgetting about something and not being reminded about it then it's an issue now

1:11:06you know I understand so I should I should point out like this I don't wanna

1:11:10Celica bitching and moaning about 80 people are describing my publication cry

1:11:13for me it's more like I know we're doing good work I know I i rate for economist

1:11:18away from the publications of people contributing are doing good right for

1:11:22other publications that people think of us having a high degree of quality I

1:11:25know what we're doing is good work and it's always frustrating when you doing

1:11:29good work in you feel like you can't get an audience that is a marketing issue

1:11:32that is separate and that's my own problem right but when I feel like the

1:11:38people who so there's a difference for people who I can't find it don't care

1:11:42about the magazine or unsubscribe because they've lost interest in the

1:11:45content that is one category rape the category that I'm having a problem with

1:11:49is the people actually like the magazine tell me they like it and they are

1:11:53emailing me to say you know because I forget it exists because it was so bad

1:11:59lets just fell out our bottom line if you could flip a switch and turn the

1:12:04magazine from a news stand up to a non used and abused flip that switch totally

1:12:09totally you can thats the thing and I don't know this you can't and i met

1:12:14that's under say you forever and ever you won't be able to but as it stands

1:12:17today you can't there is no thing you can go to in iTunes Connect and say take

1:12:23that you know my apt the magazine which is now a news stand up and make it a

1:12:28regular at even know all the things that you get from newsstands you could do you

1:12:35know like background downloads and stuff like this there's a little bit of

1:12:38recoding us as a couple things that are used the new standards I recollect that

1:12:42you have to include the background download it a different method I can use

1:12:46now to Marco I was just blogging about this we Marco said the same thing here

1:12:49in a blog post a market order it today I wouldn't put in the new standard he's

1:12:54and he's right I don't fault him for cause it made perfect sense at the time

1:12:57of course and it got a lot of attention being on the newsstand but Mark opinion

1:13:02he wrote in his entreaties like they are a platform his firm and they are not

1:13:08recommending using the newsstand and I believe that I could actually

1:13:11reformulate the app resubmitted but I would lose 100 percent of the

1:13:17subscribers I does not like a chance for the subscribers so I mean the ideal case

1:13:21for me is that they would let users choose not enforce the Sun users they

1:13:26would let users choose to break open

1:13:30the newsstand and say either don't use a newsstand put all the apps on my home

1:13:36screen or let me drag stuff out of the newsstand and but still gives me the

1:13:40ability to change covers like that's the ideal thing is give me the Apple wanted

1:13:45to give publishers and users that sense of timeliness this is something new

1:13:50the cover changes that was part of the design and it's part of the one thing I

1:13:54really appealing part of the design even though you're outside of me in the loop

1:13:58in a few other people a lot of colleges to stake their new status description

1:14:01again because of this digital replica issue and they slap it on there with

1:14:05tape that's a new negative one point size so that's a very appealing thing

1:14:10being able to show a new car but think about this I think even the name

1:14:16newsstand itself shows that the metaphors a bit broken right so is where

1:14:21you go to pick right but no but think about what is the newsstand the

1:14:24newsstand is r you go and choose from whole bunch of things most of the stuff

1:14:30on in standard stuff that you've never read you know like when you go to a

1:14:33real-life newsstand

1:14:34how many how many of the magazines are ones that you've never even looked at a

1:14:38copy of most of them right and there's everything from celebrity gossip to

1:14:43sports to you know world affairs you you you know a newsstand is something like

1:14:51this store right the newsstand metaphor is should be there something in iTunes

1:14:58where you go to take a magazine to read not a place where you were magazines the

1:15:04ones that you've chosen to subscribe to show up in the real world when you

1:15:09subscribe to two magazines and a daily newspaper you don't go to the new

1:15:14standard get them they come to your house right there right there

1:15:18the magazine is stuffed right through the mail slot near door should be called

1:15:22the latest or or news or my subscriptions or something like that

1:15:27you're right the terminology is exactly the right I will say the fabulous

1:15:30fascinating about the newsstand when you go to the iTunes to see what their

1:15:33listing there is apparently there's a lot of market for scantily clad tattooed

1:15:39women in tattoo magazines I had no idea the num

1:15:43mer the sheer quantity of different titles in that market that show up among

1:15:47the top grossing newsstand house is fasting I guess it's like buying romance

1:15:52novels about mags because now they're hidden away that's the other advantage

1:15:56of this week they don't show up on your screen so if you try to buy magazines

1:15:59you're embarrassed about now they show up on the newsstand that the country is

1:16:02hidden so that's that's the little brown cover for but you know I just think that

1:16:07in some ways the metaphor you really just think about it like you know when

1:16:12you subscribe to a magazine a real you know paper magazine they do the most

1:16:17convenient thing that they can possibly thinking to do which is we will just

1:16:21mail it to you will just put it in the mail and it will show up

1:16:26us' postal carrier will literally put it through a slot in the door of your house

1:16:31and it'll just be there for you and newspapers do something just ever so

1:16:36slightly less can you tell newspaper here take my money and give me a copy of

1:16:41your paper newspaper everyday they say okay we'll take it from here and every

1:16:46day right outside your front door in the morning there will be there will be just

1:16:51walk right out your front door and there's your newspaper it's on your

1:16:54front porch which are your homescreen rate is 80 right there is making it the

1:16:58most convenient thing possible because and and it's it's they're not bothering

1:17:03these these are people you know this is what you've asked for this is only after

1:17:06you've given the money and said do this drop this off every day obviously he

1:17:10didn't want the newspaper and you feel like I live in an urban area there's

1:17:14local newspapers that you know the stuff you're at your front door with

1:17:19newspapers you didn't ask for but that's a different case i'm saying with these

1:17:23subscriptions through the iTunes Store they should make it as convenient as

1:17:26possible which to me is exactly what you said let you put it right on your home

1:17:31screen or even on your dock icons AUC no matter which homes greener

1:17:37really think that that just wasn't thought through and that the name itself

1:17:40used and really shows just help poorer poorly thought through them

1:17:45metaphors it's it's made sense at the time that every time I was browsing

1:17:52thing we started it wasn't

1:17:54it wasn't here's the stuff you want to read it was like here's your portal to

1:17:59the App Store listing of publications and then stuff will show up here and now

1:18:04it's you know now it's something else this this ties back to my contention

1:18:08based on the looking at where I know where I am cuz I know my numbers and I

1:18:12can look at the top grossing listen on iTunes for iPhone and iPad I can see

1:18:18what I said I can look at those numbers from the audited digital replica

1:18:22versions are people only subscribing to the digital version I can say is we

1:18:27talked about earlier that people are subscribing through a website or print

1:18:30subscribers can get web stuff for free typically and that's not counting the

1:18:34digital-only subscriptions audit returns but I can see people probably describing

1:18:39the website The Economist is probably not selling at most of its subscriptions

1:18:42through new standards I mostly through economist dot com people have multimodal

1:18:46access an Android whatever so I guess what this says the Apple didn't provide

1:18:52maybe a compelling enough as they lost interest in it off or more because it's

1:19:00it's babies and you may find it abhorrent and wonderful it works out

1:19:04really well if it's something you don't care about and they focus our attention

1:19:07more and stuff that works it's it can be retained its something that you like and

1:19:12you're like oh why haven't you made iPhoto actually good after this many

1:19:17years like why have you lost interest in that Apple will make money off it was an

1:19:21important to the quarter actually more newsstand

1:19:24I was seven show to me that it's there for the moment

1:19:28pushing off to the side and not getting rid of it because most publishers are

1:19:32doing is they're making free apps and the money for that is coming from

1:19:35outside Apple systems gets no benefit except in the desirability of their

1:19:41platform for people downloading and using the new york times or New York New

1:19:46Yorker or people or whatever there is those ups do not generate any return I

1:19:51mean this is no return of those just not generate a substantial return for Apple

1:19:55probably in the way they conceived of in I not enough to to garner their

1:19:59attention it is an adjunct the absurd adjunct to the entire magazine presents

1:20:03for a magazine as opposed to

1:20:06the new standing the central point through which people then maybe go out

1:20:09and read on the web too but they come in through that way and that's in that's

1:20:13life so I'm not you know I like like I'm not whining that Apple's lost focus on

1:20:18the Sun were like well damn this I thought it kind of worked okay and and

1:20:23it's not so this is part of why I'm going into all these different

1:20:25directions to a lot of different things going on but it's also true that you're

1:20:29not asking a lot of Apple right now it now so that that vague idea that I

1:20:34talked about back in 2010 when when a lot of people in newspapers and

1:20:39magazines kind of had this vague notion that Apple's going to unveil some sort

1:20:43of boil the ocean save the publishing industry thing was sort of thinking you

1:20:48know Apple's gonna do a lot of work and come up with something you know

1:20:52ingenious that's going to infuse

1:20:55infuse money into this industry that's hoping that Apple does a lot what year

1:21:00to what we're talking about here is just a relatively minor amount of attention

1:21:05to what's going on in used and whether it would be putting the work in to allow

1:21:11and newsstand app to go on on newsstands keep its subscribers or something like a

1:21:20setting in iOS that would allow a user to say you know use newsstand for

1:21:28newsday and apps and then you taught you know on off and if you turn it off then

1:21:32it would say you know a little extra planet or text news standouts will

1:21:35appear at the root level of your exactly in this is you know I hear from I hear

1:21:40from readers again I don't mean to sound this is like

1:21:43not extolling what I do feel it's funny cuz I always feel like the magazine

1:21:47something I'm here is like worker was my ritual dunkel and you know this is a

1:21:51case a cash deal no this is a buyout and so forth but I didn't make the apple of

1:21:55the app and so he talked about it with great affection talking about Marcos

1:21:59work and I sort of forgot I own it sometimes I don't think of myself as a

1:22:03developer but I do hear from you hear from readers regularly say you know I

1:22:07don't really buy into the newsstand the only periodical app that I have really I

1:22:12don't want the newsstand icon has dragged out my love you crack so it's

1:22:16like it but I also hear that I'll see people talking on Twitter about god

1:22:20dammit I only use the new york times are only used whatever why can't I just have

1:22:25that the option is now either hide your entire newsstand folder in a subfolder

1:22:30which is then you have to nest into to bring up a double tap to double pressed

1:22:35to find out if you used it recently or in I figured out this workaround that's

1:22:39just stupid work around I have a redirect see go to a web page of my site

1:22:43of putting the fact even you bookmarked this web page it's got an icon that you

1:22:48can make a web app on your home screen so you bookmark on your home screen and

1:22:53then you tap it loads the web page does the redirect to the app launches yup

1:22:57it's stupid but it works it gives you a tight hug your screen that when you tap

1:23:00it launches the app and a number to call thanks for doing that but you know it's

1:23:04like 75 people did that or something but I wanted to let people do it but it's

1:23:08that it's some level it's that easy and relays and apples infrastructure

1:23:12allowing us to present a new standouts to come out and like a regular apt and

1:23:19even if they disabled the cover change future maybe that's not an option like

1:23:22they would definitely make make the apps

1:23:27if they did that they would you whether you get the change in every issue or not

1:23:31I don't know but you have to conform to that shape that round square shape yes

1:23:36something will be done exactly something will be different cuz they wouldn't you

1:23:38know Johnny Ives like allow that on the screen like a bunch of different shapes

1:23:42and not after all the changes they made so so I i completely appreciate

1:23:47understand that and it's it's not like Apple's tryna do anything to anybody me

1:23:52or the new york times it's more like Dayton crack this and they're so good it

1:23:57cracking a lot of nuts in this one they didn't crack and so there they've kind

1:24:01of put it aside and maybe they'll come back to it later another cycle another

1:24:05thing that's occurred to me in this again is not asking a lot of Apple would

1:24:09be perhaps the best idea would be just abandon the newsstand

1:24:13you know do in iowa 7.2 or you know I don't know you know we're already in the

1:24:19works already in December so maybe it's an Iowa State but just say you know just

1:24:25get rid of it and that's in a polite thing to do don't even announce it it

1:24:28certainly know when they get rid of things you know they don't talk about it

1:24:31because it's sort of tacit Lee acknowledging a mistake just get rid of

1:24:34it and when you upgrade to iOS seven point to your new standards are just on

1:24:40your home screen will tell you the other thing that's interesting

1:24:43existing user or if you are an existing user newsstand just becomes a normal

1:24:48folder if you've got an existing installation and then you can open it up

1:24:51and drag them out and dragged back in so that it's still organized the way it was

1:24:56before you upgraded so there's no disorientation of where what happened my

1:25:00icon but just turn it just turned newsstand into a normal folder yeah I

1:25:04mean you soon as the other thing which drives people nuts which is you can't

1:25:07top its you get it to sue me out like you can with any folder so you when

1:25:13you're in newsstand even if you get there by securities route like you

1:25:17execute a player in a noose and how you can tap on the background and exit the

1:25:22folder and go back up a level which Dr seen so many people

1:25:25read about how many breaks the metaphor but okay so here's the thing that new

1:25:30state has taught me that I should say spring a subscription publication has

1:25:33taught me that separate from newsstand but sort of tightness is it's very

1:25:37interesting after having spent the last 10 years on sort of riding with blogs

1:25:44are daily sites are safe said update all the time

1:25:48having a cycle like this in dealing with subscribers who get fatigued like I know

1:25:54people get tired of reading a given site but its fasting to get email from and

1:25:58talk to people say the kind of ran out of steam and even when they say I really

1:26:02like what you're publishing I just don't have the time to keep up with it and

1:26:06like we're doing 5 articles that are 1,500 to 2,500 words every two weeks and

1:26:11I really like it I'm a bad example because I have a little time to read

1:26:15another working with writers but there's definitely reader fatigue you get and

1:26:22that's kind of where the one-two punches that cool 3d emphasizing newsstand makes

1:26:28it a little bit harder to keep existing subscribers makes it a little bit harder

1:26:32to get new ones to deal with the church is always going to turn and so it it

1:26:37makes the equation a little bit more difficult for me especially as

1:26:40independent publisher because i dont have a website that people are used to

1:26:44going to even though you can go to the dash magazine dorgan you can you get a

1:26:48subscription there you can read all the articles there it's a full website has

1:26:51been for nine months people mostly don't realize that which is fascinating to me

1:26:55but we don't have like half a website that people used to going to and this is

1:26:59the Iowa adjunct or alternative where for every other publication just about

1:27:04they have a website which is where the traffic and this is an upgrade from the

1:27:09mobile version of their site is a better thing so that's that's been interesting

1:27:13thing to wrestle with you and that's why launched a Kickstarter is we're doing a

1:27:17book because I need different modality I can't have everything be resting on

1:27:20subscriptions because subscriptions

1:27:22especially you know ninety-five percent of it being an apple cider have probably

1:27:26five percent subscribers coming from the web so need to reject her things so that

1:27:31all the revenue is in one pot to make the engine go I was working towards the

1:27:36Kickstarter I wasn't gonna let it slip always wanted that you had a Kickstarter

1:27:43before you had a Kickstarter that that didn't get off the ground

1:27:48ontological Kickstarter it was it was a Kickstarter campaign to read a book

1:27:53about how to run a Kickstarter campaign right and the special irony is it didn't

1:27:58find but you know what happens I kind of did everything wrong I started study

1:28:01Kickstarter not have been writing about it for a couple of years he's a good

1:28:05thing it's a good thing then because in your book would have been wrong thing to

1:28:09do I don't know what it would have said the book but but everything good that

1:28:13I'm doing my life came out of his failure which is that's my lemonade

1:28:16stand is high

1:28:18lemons avail things like 10 days into the Kickstarter I'm like oh I did this

1:28:21all wrong people gave me advice should have asked more ahead of time it funded

1:28:25about 10% of like it's not gonna find so I just canceled instead of having the

1:28:29ignominy of hitting the end not reaching that goal and launched the new

1:28:33structures and went to the xoxo Festival September 2012 lunch the podcast in

1:28:39December last year joined Marco at the magazine in October of last year and

1:28:44feel like I now and learn all the secrets but now I really have a better

1:28:49sense of what what makes sense to crowdfunding think you know I think this

1:28:55will be successful

1:28:56almost half way there here's the deal it's called the magazine the book

1:29:00reports obvious title how to not be so an imprint is easier one so it's pretty

1:29:07much it's the best of the first year of the magazine and you want to do it both

1:29:12as a print and e-book collection yeah that was the thing is I thought it

1:29:17didn't you know it could do an ebook very easily right that doesn't take a

1:29:20lot of time and effort and

1:29:22wouldn't actually pretty well design but you would get the full benefit because I

1:29:26be thinkin mostly about people reading in EPUB or mobi on a Kindle so so it'd

1:29:31be relatively simple fight so I thought you know we should stick in the sand

1:29:34like electronic periodical 10 we do a hardcover book that's designed like a

1:29:40magazine so we have we have the magazine style of design that we don't even do in

1:29:45the apt because the abdomen for simple reading we take advantage of the print

1:29:48medium and then we'll producer PDF and ePub mobi version of it as well

1:29:53all without DRM that damn DRAM read it wherever you want to put it on every

1:29:58device you own every computer

1:29:58device you own every computer

1:30:00but but i wanna do a hardcover books they be something special and there be a

1:30:05reason people be motivated to be part of the kicks are we there was a reason for

1:30:09it wasn't like a I can't afford to make any book it's like printing costs a lot

1:30:13of money so I need to pull together people to to make it happen when did you

1:30:18announce this I was recently just be years before Thanksgiving the time is a

1:30:22law office hoping to do early to be to be done before Thanksgiving and then

1:30:26everything always takes longer but I want to know that you know this really

1:30:29want to get this year so it launched on

1:30:32I don't know if it was it was too is a couple weeks ago it was on November 21st

1:30:40I think the same day they put out any issue number thirty of the magazines

1:30:44were past year in the magazine $48,000 Google yeah now as we record it is it

1:30:50twenty 2555 so just a hair under fifty percent but it was a lot I was a big

1:30:56push it first and I thought just watching it like the first 24 hours I

1:31:00thought it was going gangbusters I still think you're going to make it I thought

1:31:03I think I am the odds are good the thing that's interesting and its Kickstarter

1:31:07there's like three typical Kickstarter profiles I crafts one is the home I got

1:31:13it goes like resume like a straight line up until the end and that's like

1:31:17somebody asked for $100,000 to make a like the the watched turn your III your

1:31:23iPod square nano into a watch and ask for a hundred grand and within three

1:31:27days they have two million and those era in those building themselves because

1:31:31there's something appealing it's usually consumer products something super

1:31:34appealing about it or it's like a Veronica Mars where there's an enormity

1:31:38of an audience of tens of millions of people in a tiny fraction of that

1:31:42audience is constantly discovering it in spring and coming on seeing this kind of

1:31:45straight line up permit curves up in the tapers off to like a straight line

1:31:50that's one kind one is this one is like the does kind of badly badly badly and

1:31:55then suddenly they pull it off it goes boom to the top near the end they get a

1:31:58whole bunch of people minus the apparently since I've seen it before

1:32:04is actually much more typical is really huge first day or two then you have a

1:32:08nice gentle climb as you go along your cross 50% and then a nice huge spike at

1:32:14the end of the last couple days and that's what it in so the third one is

1:32:19that this is why daddy drinks curve I know that silly like so in my case 48

1:32:25grand we raised $16,000 in 24 hours boom and a twenty-four hours is immediately

1:32:30tapered off people Salako it's gonna happen

1:32:33hit 33 percent they're fine I mean literally at that moment 24 hours it

1:32:37went to that slower taper and then so you know in

1:32:40the first day was 16 Grand the next 10 days next 14 it has been a thirteen days

1:32:45has been about six or seven thousand dollars which is much slower I'm so many

1:32:51people like me to come and just remind me before it's over my guy you had a

1:32:54slat

1:32:55you treated the other day that was something like the percentage of once

1:32:59you hit 50 percent your eyes are pretty goes like 90% people people done this

1:33:04week crunching on this easter chick look at like four different projects of

1:33:08different values of 40 to $50,000 one range or you know whatever seek a look

1:33:13at the things ok where am i and once you hit the sweet spot is once you've got

1:33:20half of your goals for me that's 24,000 at $40,000 $50,000 less project

1:33:27statistically once you reach the goal you are 97% likely or 97% of projects

1:33:33that reach half the goal go on to at least 100 percent if not more so it's a

1:33:38great stuff

1:33:39the thing about Kickstarter this fasting is it's it's forty percent of its 56

1:33:45percent failure 56% of projects do not fund but of those 56% about a third get

1:33:53no pleasure hole somebody posts it they do not tell anyone about it nobody does

1:33:58it another third of the failed ones get like less than 20 percent of the funding

1:34:02so this is very narrow band where people get between 20 to 50% the funding and

1:34:06they can get all the way there but once you hit that magic will play it shows

1:34:11enough momentum that it's just a question of time and that curve most

1:34:16Kickstarter projects the average project when you take out the outliers like

1:34:19peddler Clifford the ones that superfund elevation doc most funded about a

1:34:25hundred and five percent to a hundred and ten percent of the goal

1:34:28because people come in a meeting they needed at the end of the cold I need

1:34:31already is my pledged $10 to make it happen or whatever so it's it's a it's a

1:34:37finely tuned our but I'm feeling happy about the reason I did it was like I

1:34:42like the stories we tell ray this is the whole thing like it's this isn't a

1:34:45money-making endeavor is to say I was going to come out to the you kinda

1:34:49hinted that a few minutes ago reuse that somehow bring it up as a money-making

1:34:54house gonna have a good you know that's not that it's a bad idea to do a great

1:34:59idea I think looking at it as a money making ideas not a good ol we had no I

1:35:04mean the diversification of the magazine from being only a subscription-based

1:35:07periodical the being something that produces content lots of different ways

1:35:10that's the that's the money making idea that I need revenue I want newsstand now

1:35:15is you know ninety five ninety percent of the revenue that comes in is directly

1:35:19from Apple with their 30 percent cut and I think that to be 25 to 30% alright can

1:35:25I take can I just put on my consulting editor for free I'm not gonna charge it

1:35:29right but I am going to tell you how to make more money from you what you do is

1:35:37you sell wine sponsorships lot per issue and there's a nice one full page ad from

1:35:46that issues that will cost that that that that would cost $50,000

1:35:57I mean sure about putting advertising in the magazine yeah I don't have an

1:36:03objection so I guess I have a structural objection as opposed to say in Africa

1:36:07woman so there's there's a mission thing which is that it's been sold as

1:36:10something that has no ads and so is that from day one markers push that out I

1:36:17push that is the ideas there's no crushed there's no ads and I don't know

1:36:22how I think you can

1:36:23actually could but it takes is a threshold overcome the sale ok we said

1:36:28that now we're doing this other thing i know im not im not conscientiously

1:36:34opposed to advertising if it works especially that kind of model the

1:36:38sponsorship model like this is why I like the podcasting model is that yes

1:36:42you have ads on a podcast but it's much more in the motive is cooperative thing

1:36:46it doesn't feel like advertising the same way that horrible flash banner ads

1:36:50really think that at the listening experience

1:36:53bears that out where when you listen to arrest Real Radio even on FM it does

1:37:00seem to me like there's too many and when you listen to AM radio if you ever

1:37:04listened to like just you know just for shits and giggles and listen to the Rush

1:37:08Limbaugh's show there are so many ad breaks it is ridiculous

1:37:13the only show that I know of that it doesn't have that problem is the Howard

1:37:16Stern Show which does far fewer breaks but does really long breaks they put all

1:37:22the ads and one stretching our shows people listen to podcast is because they

1:37:29don't feel like ads and so I could see doing I loved I love how that works and

1:37:33people respond to it so having a sponsor for the magazine where it's like one

1:37:37quality things like this is a roadblock and so-and-so is sponsors issue here is

1:37:42an advertisement and we're gonna send you one email or god knows what we're

1:37:45gonna do that doesn't seem antithetical the problem I have structurally though

1:37:49is that subscribers are worth a ton of money as a subscriber is advertising

1:37:53typically to reach the audience of the scale that I have there's not enough

1:37:58money in the outside to make that worthwhile she I think I think the

1:38:03problem is convincing advertisers that it's not like buying an ad that's

1:38:09exactly what I did the math of you go to my website or blog

1:38:15clamtxt.com I did the math the few weeks ago asking about why don't have ads the

1:38:21magazine I said it was the conventional model I would probably need as many as

1:38:2520 million page views a month to equal no I'm not saying you know what i mean

1:38:31that's really exciting I've got like

1:38:34250 articles I'm not gonna get there is no universal which I can do that right

1:38:38to get twenty million so so with the with the current rates are paid with the

1:38:43yield with some human story and that doesn't include includes commissions to

1:38:47help people with us include me having ahead step out sources so I need twenty

1:38:51million pageviews let's say roughly to reach what I'm getting from subscribers

1:38:55paying that sweetheart but one sponsor who is a supplement to who makes it

1:39:01impossible that's the extra revenue necessary to make the thing or whatever

1:39:05that's a different equations might be willing to pay a sizable amount of money

1:39:09to be exclusive and to reach some people are tasteful a podcast model that's

1:39:14what's available here and there but me do my third sponsor and its again

1:39:20old friend of the show longtime sponsor an event apart an Event Apart is an

1:39:29intensely education two day learning session at great conference for people

1:39:34who make websites and instead of being like a once a year thing where you have

1:39:40to put on your schedule book travel and stuff like that they effectively come to

1:39:44you they've got events next year in 2014 around North America there in San

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1:39:53atlantis Seattle Boston San Diego washingtonDC and that I think that's

1:40:01just like the first half of the year in almost a monthly about

1:40:06go to the website find an event near you and you will not be disappointed

1:40:12an Event Apart was founded by Eric Meyer who I think easily you could say knows

1:40:19more about CSS and then anybody walking the face of the earth and Jefferies

1:40:23ailment longtime friend of the show and and one of the great proponents of web

1:40:29standards and the whole thing is dedicated to the proposition that the

1:40:34creators of great Web experiences deserve a great learning experience

1:40:37these guys have one of the best speaker lineups of any conference I've ever seen

1:40:42if you build websites and you've not been to an Event Apart you're really

1:40:47missing out and if you have been to an Event Apart you don't even have to

1:40:50listen to me because you know how good it wasn't sure you want to go back I've

1:40:53said it before too they even have great swag even just the stuff they give you

1:40:57that bad name badges last time I got cut our customers in the field notes just a

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1:41:15know that just / talk show them how you came from the show I cannot recommend

1:41:20this conference highly enough

1:41:22go there check the schedule final one coming near you and and you will not be

1:41:27disappointed I have I have this has been an obsession of mine and it's not I

1:41:34guess I'd obsession I mean really is I mean I run a business to business as if

1:41:39you count the show is a separate thing where it's you know it's part of that I

1:41:43mean I make my income I support my family on advertising but I've been

1:41:49obsessed with it all the way from before it was what I was doing was successful

1:41:53you know before I knew whether it could work but you know i i I'm obsessed with

1:41:58it and I think it's so interesting is that I don't know a man who knows if I

1:42:01came up with it but that they quote that the definition of insanity is doing the

1:42:05same thing over and over again and expecting a different result

1:42:08and that's the thing that drives me nuts about the print as print publications to

1:42:14the web and lose money is is they still keep trying to sell ad in a way that

1:42:20they've shown over and over and over again don't support the publication and

1:42:27why keep doing that you know and it just seems and and maybe I you know under

1:42:32estimating how long it takes for a new medium to settle into our society and

1:42:37that to me the web is this old thing and it's established and it's clearly here

1:42:41to stay

1:42:42whereas you know what is it really how old is it really what like seventeen

1:42:49years old 18 years old and termed not in terms of when the first website one-up

1:42:53netscape 1995 96 maybe you know TV sixteen seventeen years after the first

1:43:01TV sets were sold still didn't have to do advertising the right way I don't

1:43:05know but it's just as frustrating to me because it's it's just crazy that they

1:43:09just keep doing it the same way you know and it's eventually you figure out what

1:43:13it is you have to sell and prodded print publications have to sell they could

1:43:17sell space on paper including an entire page at a time they were monopoly there

1:43:22was the only efficient way to reach the audience in a locality national level

1:43:26and advertisers knew that but what was the actual format what they had to sell

1:43:31ad space on printed pages right now and it's too late to have what is TV have to

1:43:36sell they have time right they can sell the whole screen at a time

1:43:42thirty-seconds you know the fact that it ended up with these thirty second spots

1:43:46instead of sixty second spots or whatever doesn't really matter but what

1:43:50they're selling his time the same thing Radiohead and whether they have nowhere

1:43:59band and the web I think has spent his entire time trying to

1:44:07appliqued the print idea that you're selling space on a page and it's it's

1:44:15it's a disaster right and it just never made sense to me because what can you do

1:44:19in a magazine every man I've said this before I know of said this on the show

1:44:22but every magazine I read what turned it around on what's on the front cover and

1:44:27what's on the cover is something that's obviously supposed to capture interest

1:44:30in treat you in some way and what's on the back what's on the back is a

1:44:33full-page ad right right and the better the magazine the better at the ad

1:44:38usually it's usually something from you know here's here's the new issue of The

1:44:43New Yorker just showed up at my house today it's an ad for get reggae and an

1:44:48enterprise the company or a riot fashion I'm guessing that this watch on the back

1:44:55of the new yorker I would I would guess that this is probably like a tenor

1:44:59$15,000 yea or Cadillac or BMW or something like that and what do you get

1:45:06the first few pages of the magazine you get full page ads two-page spread these

1:45:11valuable things is it a is it inconvenient to you as the magazine

1:45:15readers know you know a lot of the magazine's there are things that I like

1:45:19i dont im not gonna buy that $15,000 wristwatch but I like looking at it I

1:45:23like to see that no I like to look at the ad and see what the hell does it

1:45:26$15,000 and if i dont have not interested at all in the ad it's a

1:45:32second to get past it to the next page

1:45:35the web it just doesn't work like that and all they do traditionally is so

1:45:40these little two inches by 3 inches long things and they did the web page like

1:45:46the back of the magazine right like the last few pages where they'll yeah we'll

1:45:50take your 50 bucks and put a little you know a little add alongside the article

1:45:54there is no thing that's the equivalent of a full-page ad on the web so just get

1:46:00over it what do you really have what are we down to the thing that the web and

1:46:04the internet in general has to sell his attention and the only way to sort of

1:46:10make that attention to sell it in a premium way is to sell less of it yes

1:46:16but it means that you have to be producing something of such high quality

1:46:19that people don't discriminate mean it's a socio-economic being in part estate is

1:46:24the new yorker can sell it as for a lot of money because its demographics are so

1:46:28good in the advertised i've seen that that watch and the bank sells you know

1:46:32millions of dollars of watches or whatever so hundreds of thousands of

1:46:36dollars of watches or as part of an overall high-end branding campaign that

1:46:39lets the watch be sold for $15,000 because it appears on the back of the

1:46:44new yorker they get the cachet of that too but it's it's the I think it's a

1:46:50trivial way too much about themselves like you could say it's only 10 but like

1:46:55I said she would formally think of as in the real world they were terrific

1:46:59publications with integrity and they're running remainder adds that I know we're

1:47:03bringing them in fifty sensor less per thousand views the running these things

1:47:08the bottom that show these terrible read other articles of her spam or something

1:47:12you know juju berry thing or whatever and I'm like where does that get you

1:47:18that you made that extra no chance of us on that page doesn't get you anywhere

1:47:21but it was one point which is that the Kickstarter so I'm actually using

1:47:29Kickstarter in what I think is the right way for someone like me to use a

1:47:33kickstart which is probably most kicks arse which is the $40,000

1:47:38you don't have to reveal my own salary but like the magazine is it does well in

1:47:44the writers well but it somehow make my living it's part of it you know it's

1:47:47still insist it's an experiment I love it but I make my living from a variety

1:47:52of things I put most of my time in the magazine but it's not where we're making

1:47:55a living from entirely so it's not like it's in a disclaimer about like pledged

1:48:00forty granted I get forty of the thousands of it but I'm really using the

1:48:04Kickstarter the way that is very useful when you really just need some capital

1:48:08and you want to give people incentive to do it because they like what you're

1:48:13doing but also you're giving them the reward is actually think you're making

1:48:17as a result of raising the money so

1:48:19the book by book in the Kickstarter you get a book that's great but I have

1:48:23threshold hits a forty a grand that was in all my budging that gets me more

1:48:28copies to print of course I'm gonna fill I don't wind up with really any money at

1:48:32the end there's a little bit of margin of error a garage full of books

1:48:35yeah exactly what I've got a pretty great so so the goal is really I want to

1:48:39sell about her books roughly reaches the goal and secure hardcover books they

1:48:44could be some mixing bowl of people can buy books or by some of the higher level

1:48:47rewards that's fine but roughly 15 her books I'm gonna pray about 2,000 books

1:48:51so I don't make really any money all the riders get paid again they get reprint

1:48:54for use the designer the printer every gets paid and I went with books at the

1:48:58outcome and then I have to sell I can sell any number of ebooks after its done

1:49:02in a hundred percent of the cost has been paid for and I can sell you notice

1:49:06a 500 print books or even do another run if those sell over the next year and

1:49:09that's where it actually benefits the bottom line is is the Kickstarter helps

1:49:14me come up with the capital that's very hard to do this right and do something

1:49:18that I think is worth people's time and attention and then my reward for myself

1:49:22personally as I have more stuff I can sell that's been paid for in the process

1:49:26of producing this thing for them as the result that alright I can't let this

1:49:32close though without talking about these to me very creepy high-end pledged

1:49:39levels not there's there's there's two things you got for these you've got a

1:49:43five thousand dollar pledge level you get a Lex Friedman visit any cons and

1:49:47and gives you shave and I don't know with your shows you Sutra positions with

1:49:55Chris Higgins same deal five grand he'll visit you anywhere in the continental

1:50:00USA and again with the country you know if i if somebody lived in Hawaii I know

1:50:07that it's more of a flight but hey why is beautiful I can I can see an escape

1:50:14clause for Alaska

1:50:16negotiate negotiate Chris Higgins frequent contributor to the magazine

1:50:23just like blacks he'll he'll come

1:50:26and then there's a Jason Snell visit but the Jason snow is five thousand and one

1:50:34this is a grudge visitors so now I launch the Kickstarter and Alexa Chris

1:50:40repair Jason's like why am I not there I'm like well you know sort of fun and

1:50:44it was thought to be four people people react very strongly Lexus IS pieces and

1:50:50they've done they've done a ton of the two biggest contributors of course and I

1:50:54asked them and they were game to do it if somebody wants to come its funding

1:50:57coming give a talk to buy the people dinner in 2001 suggestions like I'll do

1:51:03it I'm like oh that's what do you do all come with a guy come and we'll tell by

1:51:08people dinner and I'll taping compromise with them like that's great he said but

1:51:11I have to be a dollar more than blacks and I said and done and then here's the

1:51:17other thing then you are you can people killed by a visit from you and yours is

1:51:21$8,000 now how can charge more than these guys who you doing this nice

1:51:28things for you I have this dear friend a dear friend is give me great advice

1:51:32about the structure structural things to do with promoting stuff and she said you

1:51:39can't you're the editor you cannot list yourself as $5,000 these guys are

1:51:44writers in the perfectly wonderful but you really you're the editor the thing

1:51:47you should put yourself in my shoes they make yourself $10,000 I said no that's

1:51:5148 I can do it but I thought I thought I will take your advice because you know

1:51:57it with serious level is you know if you were priced out getting people for

1:52:02speakers bureaus it is crazy too many many people charged when moving is

1:52:06actually my list is actually there there Kwasi serious that come with books shown

1:52:11some people books and cover all the costs of someone coming but it's the

1:52:15idea of like if you like the idea of this and you want someone who wanted to

1:52:19support the publication and and things happen which patients or if you've

1:52:24already got like an event schedules actually this is a book entry and so if

1:52:28you have a group that wants to raise the money actually took this partly for

1:52:31Amanda Palmer because it's sort of funny but it's true is she does house concerts

1:52:35I thought this is like this is the house concert equivalent

1:52:38of being a writer speaker whatever in she sold a camber how many in her

1:52:42million dollar-plus campaign and is still the filling them like two years

1:52:47and then the pictures are crazy it's like you have a rockstar come to your

1:52:50house and snuggle with you as part of the deal more like I've met Amanda yeah

1:52:55yeah and great artists and their success is completely justified now spread again

1:53:04I would take $5000 not to have her deal was not enough because of her me I would

1:53:13I would not like I wouldn't want Bob Dylan to perform and I should point out

1:53:18these visits and my cat in campaign they will not stay with you there covers

1:53:21hotel for them now you know that story I forget it actually based on a true story

1:53:26P T Anderson made into a film punch-drunk love really great movie but

1:53:31it was a bad guys in movies played by Adam Sandler but he's not it's

1:53:35absolutely not an arab Sandler movie but the idea was that there were these cans

1:53:43of identity more soup that you bought them in on the back of the camera soup

1:53:47was like a thousand miles on american airlines and he figured out that you

1:53:56know that the miles if you just compute what's the miles roughly worth worth way

1:54:00more than 89 cents so he just bought literally thousands of dollars thousands

1:54:07and thousands of dollars in thousands and thousands of Kansas soup cut all

1:54:11these coupons out and ended up with you know right like you know he became like

1:54:18the most you know mild the customer on American Idol

1:54:22my mind works the same way where I often try to see the loopholes and I got it I

1:54:30know for a fact because part of this is you get taken out to dinner I could rack

1:54:35up more than $5,000 on it is true I'm slightly concerned that some will push

1:54:42the olive we did not set a limit however we hope that the people who pay 5000 we

1:54:48do it easily I could easily because she was doing house concert she's had a lot

1:54:55of her things were like 50 people got together and put $100 and they got to

1:55:00come and swim with her

1:55:01snuggle in the closet I don't know if they will snuggle for more but I'm not

1:55:11Amanda Palmer either we should wrap up we've been on for a while but it's been

1:55:20a great show we know I was talking about Bitcoin but gotta might have to have you

1:55:23back for another show because we've we've expanded the whole thing on ads

1:55:27Public License I will come back in I think I understand you're a great piece

1:55:32on a link to I will link it up it's in the queue for during fireball so it'll

1:55:35be through their great piece in The Economist this is this is not going to

1:55:41talk about but it's I think I actually understand how it works technically

1:55:47still will talk about it it's fascinating even if you did you know

1:55:52it's ridiculously elegant and clever at every level and every level is insane at

1:55:57the same time I want to mention this is sort of off-topic I was working in that

1:56:02way but I can't but when you were talking about the history of the New

1:56:07York right and it gets tired and has a wrap-up of the show of why it's worth

1:56:12having a publication that that can stand the test of time and build its own

1:56:17legacy so the new issue the December 9th issue

1:56:21the new yorker came to my house today and on the cover two lovely cover by his

1:56:28name is van banja I love his work and it is a picture of McSorley's Old Ale House

1:56:37established 1859 and mostly monochrome but there's a little Christmas to it and

1:56:45Merry Christmas innuendo and present on the ground as snow-filled Street and

1:56:50lower Manhattan and there's a guy up front playing trumpet and cute waitress

1:56:59inside now the thing that caught my eye about this and I you know most of it i

1:57:04subscribe to The New Yorker comes every week and I've got a big stack literally

1:57:09knee-deep in my office of unread issues I can't keep up with it I love so I love

1:57:14the new yorker can't keep up with it every week but I happen to know this

1:57:17because my friend Scott Simpson recommend this book to me while ago it's

1:57:21a book called up in the old hotel by James Joseph Mitchell ever heard of

1:57:25Joseph missile yes yes if Mitchell was a staff writer at the New Yorker I think

1:57:31maybe when it was founded if not he was one of the early hires he started in

1:57:341939 and was for a few decades was one of the top contributors and this is a

1:57:40collection of his work in the new yorker it is a wonderful book and what kind of

1:57:44stories he used right we're just like you know just man on the street stories

1:57:50about the regular citizens of New York and he's won I mean it's it's one of the

1:57:54best books I've ever read and it was really great recommendations I can't

1:57:57recommend it highly enough

1:57:59up in the old hotel and the first story in in this book by Joseph Mitchell is

1:58:10the old house at home

1:58:13and it's a profile of a sold-out house was written in C I have the book of the

1:58:21year twenty when this is also about long form stuff and it's just a story about

1:58:29the saloon and who owns it

1:58:31what it's like inside think it was written in like 1939 1943 1943 1944 1947

1:58:41book so it's here's a story about this old house it was established in 1859 the

1:58:47oldest pub in New York City continuously open I believe since 1859 and there

1:58:56wasn't one of the most famous

1:58:57a great historically notable profile that the new yorker ran but they ran it

1:59:04seventy percent seventy three years ago and now here's the cover story and it's

1:59:11you know a picture and I think that's so great and I don't know how many readers

1:59:15of The New Yorker gonna know that but like one soon as I saw it it was like to

1:59:20me it was like thats awesome that there's a great follow-up to which I

1:59:25just found the blog post of the new yorker dot com about it and it is funded

1:59:30some additional cartoons for the say it's a slide show showing me the Pooh

1:59:34wandering in if you ever seen the Pooh smoking a cigarette while the other hand

1:59:41it's interesting about Joseph Mitchell is now this in the foreword to the book

1:59:48and it's written by David Remnick the current editor of the new yorker Joe

1:59:54Gould's secret is is this I'm quoting from his david remnick introduction Joe

1:59:59Gould's secret is mitchell's masterpiece as the last piece in the book it is also

2:00:05of course his last piece he never published again for the next thirty one

2:00:11years and six months

2:00:12Mitchell came to work almost everyday and submitted not even a story for the

2:00:17talk of the town no one was more esteemed by the staff in this quarterly

2:00:21soft-spoken genius and no one but a fool

2:00:25asked about his silence their theories about what might have hindered him some

2:00:30great personal sadness the weight of reputation the radical changes in New

2:00:35York he admitted when he was in his eighties I can't seem to get anything

2:00:41finished anymore

2:00:42estate the world isn't just defeats the kind of writing I used to do so he but

2:00:47that's the sort of but he remained a staff writer full-time employed and came

2:00:52to work five days a week for 31 years and six months and never rode never rode

2:00:56another piece that is there something that almost incredible

2:01:03application out there was time layers comment about why after being one of the

2:01:09most successful political you know humorous in America for years and years

2:01:13and that he gave it up as a math professor of his full-time job right but

2:01:17he gave up his he said after henry kissinger won the Nobel Prize nominated

2:01:21for the Nobel Peace Prize something of that nature and say I just thought that

2:01:29was so fast and so great that they would call back to your plan for doing

2:01:35fireball is a blank page for the next thirty one years every day people get up

2:01:40and look at the page it'll be nothing they're probably not with a whimper but

2:01:47with the house bank probably is how people just keep coming back hoping for

2:01:53something now

2:01:54alright Glen thanks a lot everybody check out the Kickstarter for the

2:02:00magazine the book and I checked the show notes and blend piece on

2:02:05Bitcoin in various bylines in 37 different weekly publications thank you

2:02:13all right thank you