The Talk Show

70: Ken Turns Effect


00:00:00   sold lots of stuff going on this week I guess the big one [TS]

00:00:03   you know I think if we look back if we did like a week by week highlight you [TS]

00:00:07   know years from now we'll look back on the big news this week is is no delas [TS]

00:00:12   being named the CEO of Microsoft [TS]

00:00:15   you have and it's a little weird cuz it leaked a little bit early and I think in [TS]

00:00:22   hindsight it's sort of like my initial take is why did it take so long to name [TS]

00:00:28   the guy goes it seems pretty obvious right I totally agree with that you know [TS]

00:00:34   there have been so many different front-runners have there been at first [TS]

00:00:38   it was Stephen you operate right now then it became the Ford CEO Alan Mulally [TS]

00:00:47   Mulally law and and then you know there were some other names bandied about the [TS]

00:00:57   Skype guy tony yeah yeah but there were more I guess there are more dark horses [TS]

00:01:02   but not soon adele is one that was always mention certainly cause he is one [TS]

00:01:07   of the senior executives there but it is you know it seems like it seems like [TS]

00:01:12   everyone is saying that this is the absolute right call but why wasn't it [TS]

00:01:16   recalls six months ago [TS]

00:01:17   yeah it and the only one that I could see that maybe they wanted to really [TS]

00:01:23   push on was Mulally Ford and he used to be at boeing which means he has [TS]

00:01:29   seattle-area roots and you know and and [TS]

00:01:33   while I first year I thought well for that's not really a technical company [TS]

00:01:38   but you do you read up on my wall he does have an engineering background is [TS]

00:01:42   he's not like a business school [TS]

00:01:45   mind he's you know and engineering guy who worked up to become an executive so [TS]

00:01:49   it it it's not outlandish and the story that was told on that was that a and [TS]

00:01:54   he's a little bit older he's he's already had a successful career he is [TS]

00:01:58   very successful Boeing turned you know ford around through a very difficult [TS]

00:02:01   time for the car industry he would just go to Microsoft for a couple of years [TS]

00:02:05   and and sort of take probably in it was it was even rumored under his wing and [TS]

00:02:11   sort of teaching the ropes of being a CEO yeah that's that sounds like a [TS]

00:02:16   pretty good theory about that because that is the one main criticism against [TS]

00:02:20   the people have them of Nadal is that he's never been a CEO at all and so [TS]

00:02:24   taking over one of the largest companies in the world is certainly going to be a [TS]

00:02:28   challenge it probably would have been beneficial to have a coach [TS]

00:02:32   quote unquote coach to do to help them along that but he's bill gates now to do [TS]

00:02:36   that right to do so right and I but I am I thought on the timing this deal when [TS]

00:02:41   Mulally backed out and just said you know pretty much point-blank you know [TS]

00:02:45   what I'm staying afford you know that's it then I don't understand why it took [TS]

00:02:49   months after that for for this to be named yeah it seems like who knows I [TS]

00:02:55   mean reading into all the various stories that have come out in in these [TS]

00:02:58   past few months it definitely does sound like there was quite a bit of tension on [TS]

00:03:03   the border between in particular sort of between some of the candidates they were [TS]

00:03:08   talking to and the power dynamics of wood gates remain chairman and would [TS]

00:03:13   Ballmer remain on the board because that would be a very a weird situation I [TS]

00:03:17   would imagine for someone an outsider especially to come into that company [TS]

00:03:21   with the two previous CEOs on their board of directors sort of you know well [TS]

00:03:28   we didn't do it this way in the past type thing coming up again and again and [TS]

00:03:32   again you can imagine so you know it seems like there is definitely a board [TS]

00:03:37   struggle a little bit and they finally it sorted that out but I still don't [TS]

00:03:40   know why they took six months I don't feel like there was a story [TS]

00:03:44   in the journal a day or two after the announcement that was reported to be the [TS]

00:03:49   hey here's what happened behind the scenes and there was a little bit of [TS]

00:03:52   color but not really anything that explained why it took as long as I get [TS]

00:03:58   the real story behind it did not come out [TS]

00:04:01   yeah yeah I think I read that as well and and there's there's other sort of [TS]

00:04:05   things that are yet to be seen on this suit the one guy from you know the [TS]

00:04:10   activist shareholder is going to be taking a board seat soon from ValueClick [TS]

00:04:15   I think that's what it was and so you know there was a lot of talk of when [TS]

00:04:20   that was going to happen like sort of bomber had to concede that that he was [TS]

00:04:23   going to allow this this activist shareholder to take the board seat and [TS]

00:04:27   what does that mean for the dynamics of the board now that that Gates is no [TS]

00:04:31   longer chairman and I don't like no one's really talking about that right [TS]

00:04:35   now but I don't know what that will mean because he would assume that the [TS]

00:04:38   activist shareholder wanted to take the board seat in order to shake things up [TS]

00:04:42   things have already been shaken up now so what what is his role there and [TS]

00:04:48   widest is sort of company still want that position I would imagine it's to [TS]

00:04:53   see how things go for the first few months to see if Microsoft has actually [TS]

00:04:57   willing now with new leadership to sort of changed direction in any way and I [TS]

00:05:02   don't know what are your thoughts on that you think that they actually will [TS]

00:05:04   sort of change from bombers lest you know reorg stance I don't know and it's [TS]

00:05:13   I think everybody you know I don't think you have to be juiced into microsoftr be [TS]

00:05:18   a keen observer just just common sense tells you that I think it was going good [TS]

00:05:23   he was on the show [TS]

00:05:24   couple months ago weeks ago we talked about just it's just weird that they did [TS]

00:05:28   the reorg then said bombers leaving you know it just really seems like hey we [TS]

00:05:35   want a new CEO and we want to reorg it seems like the way you do that is you [TS]

00:05:39   put the new CEO and in let the new CEO Ron and structure and improve the reorg [TS]

00:05:46   an end I guess naming an insider a guy you know who's been there [TS]

00:05:52   r it adds a little bit of continuity and and you know maybe that makes a little [TS]

00:05:57   bit more sense but then that again raises to me the question of why they [TS]

00:06:00   didn't just named him earlier yeah I think that by sort of doing that reorg [TS]

00:06:08   that that's certainly seems to speak to the notion that perhaps bomber wasn't at [TS]

00:06:12   all ready to go he sort of made it seem like it was his his own call and you [TS]

00:06:18   know ultimately it may have been but he was certainly you know at least pushed [TS]

00:06:22   in that direction they would imagine because it does seem insane that that [TS]

00:06:26   that he would orchestrate this entire change the company even if he thought [TS]

00:06:30   someone an insider was going to take over underneath him it's still like you [TS]

00:06:34   know it's it's it's someone else sort of setting setting the table for four your [TS]

00:06:40   dinner [TS]

00:06:40   well it's so weird a lot of thing and then and then what about the element of [TS]

00:06:45   you remember all this Stephen Elop stuff that lately about how how different you [TS]

00:06:51   know he's gonna cut everything up into little pieces and sell off certain [TS]

00:06:55   businesses and and we think that was from him or from one of his rivals camps [TS]

00:07:00   because it obviously it ultimately Nov torpedoed his his candidacy but it [TS]

00:07:05   certainly ended up not helping a cause he's not the CEO right now [TS]

00:07:08   yeah that's a good question either either it must be one or the other in [TS]

00:07:12   must either be that he thought it helped and that he must have also thought that [TS]

00:07:17   he knew you know like in private conversation that he had some support on [TS]

00:07:22   the board and that leading it would get outsiders you know like investors you [TS]

00:07:30   know I mean like the people were just talking right value at people who would [TS]

00:07:35   definitely I think that that's their sort of stated goal to get Microsoft to [TS]

00:07:39   cut itself up into little pieces to to sort of throw pressure behind that and [TS]

00:07:45   and make it you know whatever you put pressure on the ones who are maybe [TS]

00:07:49   pushing against the OPP to go his way or you know and it is you know and it's it [TS]

00:07:54   sounds you know you start you say this and it sounds a little silly and you [TS]

00:07:57   start thinking maybe you know everything's not like a movie but you [TS]

00:08:00   know what they're in real life there are part of politics and people do play [TS]

00:08:04   dirty tricks the other idea would be that it was somebody else who ceded it [TS]

00:08:08   to make him look bad like he can't keep his mouth shut and leaked to the press [TS]

00:08:13   sort of guy yeah that's sort of you know again who knows what's actually going on [TS]

00:08:18   but that sounds really plausible because of the you saw what the reaction was to [TS]

00:08:23   it when that happens it's like oh my god this is insane you know like there were [TS]

00:08:28   two camps as there always are you know the people who who think that Microsoft [TS]

00:08:32   should be split up her like hell yeah this is exactly what they need to do it [TS]

00:08:35   and there's the people are just looking at the company overall and just having [TS]

00:08:40   gone through this reorganization like oh my god this is this going to throw [TS]

00:08:44   things into further disarray this is pretty much the end of Microsoft if they [TS]

00:08:47   let this happen if I had to guess though I think that it was Elop and his people [TS]

00:08:53   who leaked it because if it were and he could've [TS]

00:08:58   there are ways for him to you know he somehow tried got thrown under the bus [TS]

00:09:02   by somebody else there's ways that he could spend it the other way you know [TS]

00:09:07   and if it wasn't his actual plan to put the company up like that you know he [TS]

00:09:12   could have come out and just said so yeah said this you know that didn't come [TS]

00:09:16   from me that's not my plan I don't know yet what if it's it would if it was a [TS]

00:09:20   situation where he started knew that he at that point somehow he knew that he [TS]

00:09:24   wasn't the front-runner and he thought let's just try something wild and you [TS]

00:09:28   know sort of a John McCain kidding Sarah Palin and and it backfires what what's [TS]

00:09:34   the old saying never attribute to malice what can be attributed to stop Italy [TS]

00:09:40   and I always thought that that made a lot of sense even with the whole thing [TS]

00:09:49   where he was in Nokia and when he first went there from Microsoft and there are [TS]

00:09:53   a lot of people who said wait they've hired a guy from Microsoft and then he [TS]

00:09:56   comes in and the first thing he says is we should did all of our existing plans [TS]

00:10:01   and go with Windows Phone and a lot of people said you know is he like like a [TS]

00:10:06   double agent is he the puppet government right now I mean what if he's coming [TS]

00:10:10   here in purposely trying to run the company into the ground so that [TS]

00:10:14   Microsoft can buy them and then he ran the company into the ground lost a lot [TS]

00:10:18   of shareholder value and and made tens of millions of dollars from self right [TS]

00:10:24   with a crazy contract that was structured in a way that it if the [TS]

00:10:29   company lost a lot of value and was sold for the mobile handset division was told [TS]

00:10:35   that he would profit it had played out you know conspiracy theorists would have [TS]

00:10:41   a field day with that one because it's perfectly along those lines and and so I [TS]

00:10:46   don't know I mean it actually makes sense both ways that he's actually not [TS]

00:10:50   very good at his job or is devilishly good but devious you know both [TS]

00:10:58   explanations make sense I don't think either explanation makes him a good pic [TS]

00:11:03   to be Microsoft CEO though I agree and and there's there's another survey [TS]

00:11:08   interesting wrinkle to this when I was sort of reading through a series that I [TS]

00:11:11   realize which is that so now I'm not being CEO he is going to be when the [TS]

00:11:16   when the deal I think the deal's closing sometime this quarter with Nokia he will [TS]

00:11:21   be the one put in charge of the devices business basically and that was with the [TS]

00:11:29   previous reorg if you remember there was this there was a sort of Brit big press [TS]

00:11:33   cycle around Julie Larson green right who was previously an executive in that [TS]

00:11:40   one of the senior executives at the company and she was being elevated to [TS]

00:11:43   senior executive and put in charge of the devices thing right before they [TS]

00:11:48   announced the the Nokia deal and I remember I think there was [TS]

00:11:51   i dont member who ran the profile may have been the Virgin may have been [TS]

00:11:53   someone else but they had a big profile on her and how like she's ascending to [TS]

00:11:57   the top of the company in and maybe you know like maybe she will one day be CEO [TS]

00:12:02   and now all of a sudden with the with the nuclear deal you office is now her [TS]

00:12:06   boss she got demoted essentially and you know and and then thinking there was [TS]

00:12:12   that well maybe it's only a temporary thing because maybe win you know when [TS]

00:12:17   you up its CEO she will get her job back but it obviously didn't play out that [TS]

00:12:21   way [TS]

00:12:23   yeah and is she still and she's not in charge of Windows now look what what it [TS]

00:12:32   is I do know that she was I know she was for a while she worked with Sinofsky [TS]

00:12:36   yeah right when she took over when when he was out and sort of took over that [TS]

00:12:44   thing but yeah I believe with the reorg she was the one being put in charge of [TS]

00:12:47   the division that is now in turn will be in charge of once once there I think one [TS]

00:12:55   thing it brings to my mind and it really shows I think I really do think that [TS]

00:13:02   just how how badly a job bomber didn't certain ways and I dunno I know that he [TS]

00:13:11   you know under his leadership the company's revenues and profits have gone [TS]

00:13:14   up yet even over the last few years and that's you know it so he's by no measure [TS]

00:13:20   a complete failure and and I think you know four years it's not just after the [TS]

00:13:25   fact but all along he's publicly stated that that's how we measure the success [TS]

00:13:30   of the company right on some measures you know Microsoft board got exactly [TS]

00:13:35   what they thought they should have thought they were gonna get under bomber [TS]

00:13:39   but one of the ways that I think that he really left them in the lurch was was [TS]

00:13:43   with how many other executives he effectively pushed out over the last [TS]

00:13:48   five six years yikes [TS]

00:13:50   ski like Ray Ozzie [TS]

00:13:53   Robbie box the other two Xbox Guide a allard Baylor right who you know a lot [TS]

00:14:00   of people sort of [TS]

00:14:02   you know even just a couple of years ago even sure what he's up to anymore but [TS]

00:14:06   even just a couple years ago a lot of people considered him sort of appear to [TS]

00:14:11   like a Tony Fadell like a rival you know like right you know near the top and [TS]

00:14:17   then charge of consumer devices in a keen eye for you know leading that sort [TS]

00:14:22   of team and all those people were gone and all those people who know you know [TS]

00:14:26   some of them maybe they should have been gone I don't know I always thought Ray [TS]

00:14:29   Ozzie for example to me was a little bit was not a practical person that always [TS]

00:14:34   seemed to me when I listen to him talk that he died I was like what did you [TS]

00:14:40   really say I don't know never it never really made a lot of Sandwell it and he [TS]

00:14:43   i mean he had he had sort of the hardest of all to step into which was replacing [TS]

00:14:47   the gates are alright the Chiefs are so I'm not going to say that all of them [TS]

00:14:53   should have stayed or that it was possible but the fact is that none of [TS]

00:14:56   them stayed all of them are gone and so in terms of continuity and picking and [TS]

00:15:02   somebody from the inside and having a smooth transition which you know let's [TS]

00:15:07   just face it in some aspects the public relations of a CEO transition are the [TS]

00:15:13   stakes are high but the optics are simple right what you really want is a [TS]

00:15:18   nice smooth handoff with a handshake and a smile and it all happens in one [TS]

00:15:22   announcement [TS]

00:15:23   right it's I'm stepping down and I'm happy to say the board is already [TS]

00:15:28   approved that my protege insert name here is replacing me the companies in [TS]

00:15:35   great hands we work together for the last so many years here she has led this [TS]

00:15:41   part of the company's great success can be happier to great day for the company [TS]

00:15:47   there you go and then chooses which is exactly what Apple did under very [TS]

00:15:51   different circumstances for the stepping down of the sea right it was but [TS]

00:15:57   you know Apple was clearly set up where that's in some alternate universe where [TS]

00:16:05   you know jobs stayed a step ahead of the cancer but decided you know I took a [TS]

00:16:18   look at what happened with the cancer and took a look at what he'd done [TS]

00:16:20   through you know the release of the iPad and said you know what I'm going to [TS]

00:16:25   Hawaii right I'm going to become chairman of the board and I'm gonna come [TS]

00:16:29   in for two or three weeks a year and I'm going to Hawaii for the other 50 49 [TS]

00:16:33   weeks here it would have been Tim Cook is you know he's been COO for all this [TS]

00:16:41   time he's done a great job [TS]

00:16:43   companies ingredients you know sign are right it would have been exact same [TS]

00:16:48   transition just you know not you know without the tragedy [TS]

00:16:52   yes embalmer really it in and I can't help but feel that you know political [TS]

00:17:00   intrigue wise the dead he did that on purpose [TS]

00:17:02   you know that it was to you know it's sort of a godfather mafia movies type [TS]

00:17:07   scenario but with the city killing them it's just getting squeezing people out [TS]

00:17:10   of the company [TS]

00:17:11   yea and they're at their long been those sort of rumors that that is what Ballmer [TS]

00:17:16   was like you know not so even secretly doing sort of just anyone who was was [TS]

00:17:20   rising to a level that seemed like a good challenge him in within the company [TS]

00:17:25   was was somehow immediately you know exited just take for example Sinofsky [TS]

00:17:30   who is very smart guy and when you read like he enjoys blogging now and stuff is [TS]

00:17:35   so obvious to me very cogent and makes a lot of sense [TS]

00:17:39   you know I think if he had still been at the company clearly would have been a if [TS]

00:17:44   not the leading candidate and he wasn't there anymore and that once he's not [TS]

00:17:49   there anymore I feel like PR wise the board was kind of you know legally [TS]

00:17:56   speaking of course they can hire anybody you know they could hire you know they [TS]

00:18:00   could try to hire Tim Cook they could hire you know they can certainly bring [TS]

00:18:03   Sinofsky back but bringing Sinofsky back would be like a slap and bombers face [TS]

00:18:08   and it would make the company look bad for sure they keep their hands were tied [TS]

00:18:12   in terms of if any of those people who left the company if the board actually [TS]

00:18:16   thought these are good candidates to lead the company so do you what do you [TS]

00:18:20   think happens now with Nutella as CEO do you think that there will be more [TS]

00:18:24   internal sort of shake-up and strafed you see that do you think people will [TS]

00:18:28   leave because they were either passed over like you know we'll see what [TS]

00:18:33   happens with Eli by assume that he can't he must have some sort of you know [TS]

00:18:36   handcuffs to that are part of the Nokia deal where he has to come over and [TS]

00:18:40   actually stayed within the company for awhile but you know there's a there's [TS]

00:18:44   others there's no tony Bates we're talking about there's there's several [TS]

00:18:47   others who you know could have felt like they were slated in some way and are [TS]

00:18:53   they are they gonna feel we are now being managed by being overseen by what [TS]

00:18:57   was their peer before I don't know I don't know enough about the company said [TS]

00:19:02   to have a sense that I my guess is no though it sounds to me and reading the [TS]

00:19:08   blogs of people who are more juiced into Microsoft and and you know know people [TS]

00:19:15   who work there it seems like he's a very pop scene as a popular choice from [TS]

00:19:19   within the company [TS]

00:19:20   yeah if there are executives who might leave if you like might try to get out [TS]

00:19:25   now or whatever I don't know but I think in terms of the rank-and-file though [TS]

00:19:28   it's seen as a good move [TS]

00:19:31   yeah and I think that's sort of been the consensus among everything you read even [TS]

00:19:35   sort of talking to Microsoft employees now they seem pretty excited about this [TS]

00:19:39   I do think though I think there is still the lingering questions in the air as to [TS]

00:19:44   once this honeymoon period is over what they are actually going to do is it [TS]

00:19:50   going to just be executing bomber [TS]

00:19:52   strategy with Nutella or are they going to actually try to make some different [TS]

00:19:58   choices with you know some of the products that just aren't going anywhere [TS]

00:20:02   I want to other big question I have is what is bill gates's actual yeah and and [TS]

00:20:10   was you know it's forget how they phrase it was actually a very deftly turn of [TS]

00:20:15   phrase where he's not that he stepped down as chairman but he's stepped up in [TS]

00:20:21   two steps [TS]

00:20:22   day-to-day role it's actually a no we laugh but it's actually a very good but [TS]

00:20:27   it totally totally you know so yes so he said he's gonna be spending a third of [TS]

00:20:33   his time right on this Microsoft now which is significant considering before [TS]

00:20:37   obviously he was chairman but I think he was you know very involved in a very [TS]

00:20:43   major way at all it's all his philanthropy and so now he's willing to [TS]

00:20:47   take on this more but you know what what does that mean you don't know is see I [TS]

00:20:53   think you know the the easiest thing in the world that I think he could do that [TS]

00:20:57   would be beneficial to the company is just just a something as simple as sort [TS]

00:21:01   of being the yes no man you know like the last the last word on like what they [TS]

00:21:06   actually either they decide to to go after in terms of new projects or what [TS]

00:21:11   they actually ship it just seems like you know they just sort of her at this [TS]

00:21:15   place now where the where they sort of put everything out there and in Windows [TS]

00:21:18   8 is it is a good example of that in my mind because I mean all of us looking at [TS]

00:21:22   it from the outside not all of us but a lot of us looking at it from the outside [TS]

00:21:25   I think so too so where this was going with you know I remember I was talking [TS]

00:21:30   to do sort of developers who are sort of beta testing windows 8 and like you know [TS]

00:21:34   trying to gauge their their their thoughts on it and everyone was like [TS]

00:21:39   unanimous in saying like this is gonna be a total nightmare for the company and [TS]

00:21:44   somehow the company didn't see that they thought it'd be a great thing and they [TS]

00:21:47   shipped it like I don't know if they just weren't talking to people on the [TS]

00:21:50   outside or what but there should have been someone within the company who with [TS]

00:21:54   the power to be able to say look let's let's stop here I know what to look [TS]

00:21:58   really bad if we if we delay and operate major operating system but you know it [TS]

00:22:03   might be worse if we ship something [TS]

00:22:05   you know the the community just totally rejects which is what happened I you [TS]

00:22:10   know my my take on it as I wrote last week is that I think that Windows 8 was [TS]

00:22:14   designed to fit a goal as opposed to being designed to be good in and of [TS]

00:22:23   itself by which I mean that to me [TS]

00:22:27   bomber never shook the view that the way things ought to be in the world the [TS]

00:22:33   right way the way the industry should be should be that somewhere around 95% of [TS]

00:22:37   all computing devices should be running Windows and thats was no you know iOS [TS]

00:22:44   and Android combined in the two very different ways but you know hand in hand [TS]

00:22:50   over the last six years [TS]

00:22:52   change that to the case where did you is the one who crashes I think brilliantly [TS]

00:22:59   that it's only like if you count smartphones and tablets as computing [TS]

00:23:04   devices which i think is very very fair you're installing apps on your browsing [TS]

00:23:09   the web [TS]

00:23:10   yeah you're doing all the same Windows computers there's more windows devices [TS]

00:23:14   in use than ever before in the aggregate but because there are so many other [TS]

00:23:18   computing devices that same explosion of new devices that only you know in 2007 [TS]

00:23:23   ninety percent of all computing devices were running Windows 98 in 2013 at the [TS]

00:23:30   end of the year it was like 38% 35% it's an enormous number but now it's like the [TS]

00:23:36   world is federated it's you know there's there's three or four mega platforms for [TS]

00:23:42   computing devices in Windows is just one of them and it's not even a majority [TS]

00:23:47   anymore and it never will be again but I don't think bomber ever came to grips [TS]

00:23:52   with that and accepted it and I think windows aids goal was like people want [TS]

00:23:55   touch screens will add a touch screen thing to it and then [TS]

00:23:58   everything in theory could be running Windows 8 and yep that'll be good and [TS]

00:24:04   and that's that's so crazy when you think about that just you know when when [TS]

00:24:08   you're saying there right now it's just like Microsoft obviously looked at the [TS]

00:24:11   world they saw you know their dominant position and you have to assume that [TS]

00:24:16   they were like looking around them saying like who could possibly compete [TS]

00:24:20   with us and sort of looking at the competitions like Apple is out there and [TS]

00:24:23   they have a very small percentage of of market share with with with Max and [TS]

00:24:28   instead what happened is they were just totally blindsided cuz they didn't [TS]

00:24:31   realize that the competition wouldn't come in the form of an actual computer [TS]

00:24:34   it would come in the form of a phone and then later a tablet and now bomber see [TS]

00:24:41   you know saw that 67 years too late and now is trying to squeeze windows which [TS]

00:24:47   doesn't even make sense of course there are no more windows onto these devices [TS]

00:24:51   in order to unify and get get the house back in order but you just can't do that [TS]

00:24:58   yeah and I really don't think it matters that much and I you know I got a lot of [TS]

00:25:02   pushback on that or I got a lot most closely agreement but I got some [TS]

00:25:07   pushback on my piece last week from people who who truly do believe that [TS]

00:25:13   what they want is in in admitting that Windows 8 as it is is not perfect not [TS]

00:25:19   good enough but that the goal is tenable to have one operating system have a [TS]

00:25:24   device that is terrific for mouse and keyboard trackpad and keyboard and mouse [TS]

00:25:31   pointer on screen and pixel precise control and touch and that you could do [TS]

00:25:36   it and then it would simplify things because you've got what you know all [TS]

00:25:39   that you know you can have your cake and eat it too and you know I'm not going to [TS]

00:25:44   say the wrong I can't prove that they're wrong all I can say is that everything [TS]

00:25:48   i've seen today suggests that they're wrong and you know your thinking about [TS]

00:25:54   it of course like utopian world where everything is perfect [TS]

00:25:59   would you rather have one device that can do everything vs sort of two or [TS]

00:26:03   three devices that you have to have with you at all times of course I think [TS]

00:26:06   everyone would want that but it's not that simple it's not that simple for [TS]

00:26:09   both users but it's [TS]

00:26:11   visible for developers can you imagine a developer trying to develop you know of [TS]

00:26:15   a Windows 8 application for both a phone and a computer that operates in the same [TS]

00:26:21   way I mean they would operate in the same way and so they would they would [TS]

00:26:26   take so much more developments into it and like do you think a startup is going [TS]

00:26:30   to be able to do that and you know a company with like two people they're [TS]

00:26:33   going to have to to do all this work to get something to work on this Windows [TS]

00:26:37   unified platform it's it's it's just not realistic to think about it least right [TS]

00:26:42   now so I don't know you know who in their right mind would actually argue [TS]

00:26:47   that that we can live in that world right now just weekends and you know to [TS]

00:26:52   me I have always said you know question I've tried to you know my whole writing [TS]

00:26:58   career is what is design what does it mean and it's hard it's hard to really [TS]

00:27:03   nail it down but the best explanation I've ever come up with this design is [TS]

00:27:08   making decisions to solve problems it's the decision-making and I'll go back to [TS]

00:27:15   when they unveiled the surface strategy and they came out with two they had the [TS]

00:27:21   surface that runs real windows and can have you know traditional Windows apps [TS]

00:27:25   and it runs on Intel chips the surface pro it was great and then there's the [TS]

00:27:29   surface RT which was the more iPad style one which ran on arm and was thinner and [TS]

00:27:34   lighter but only ran into the Metro apps to me that's a failure of the design it [TS]

00:27:42   both are reasonable strategies but you can't ship both right there was just [TS]

00:27:51   it's nowhere near as profound difference but I know for a fact that I'm sure you [TS]

00:27:57   I think we even talked about this but late in the game for the original iPad [TS]

00:28:02   and the original one and for the first two years had an equal with bezel all [TS]

00:28:08   the way around the screen easy to forget now with the air in the new mini [TS]

00:28:12   and they had version with the home button where it is and then they had [TS]

00:28:17   another version where the home button was on the long side and that in other [TS]

00:28:22   words that is the default orientation of an iPad for horizontal or vertical [TS]

00:28:27   landscape or portrait and they had both virgins until very late in the game and [TS]

00:28:34   only made that decision at the end and in fact if I'm not mistaken I'm sure if [TS]

00:28:40   I am that I get better but I'm pretty sure that the coordinate system of the [TS]

00:28:44   iPad for developers I don't even know if it still has the same but it is the [TS]

00:28:49   coordinate system was such that the 00 point made it seem as though the home [TS]

00:28:54   button should be on the long side not the short side they didn't ship both of [TS]

00:28:59   those who hate they didn't say hey if you want an iPad figure out which way [TS]

00:29:04   you want to hold it and you know most of the time and by the one with the home [TS]

00:29:08   button as such they shipped one they had to decide you know and I know that that [TS]

00:29:14   happened to be a contentious decision within the company and it was it really [TS]

00:29:18   was like you know like a 51 to 49 type thing and I you know surely you know [TS]

00:29:25   because it when it came out that the deciding vote came down to two Steve [TS]

00:29:29   Jobs but it was you know a lot of people on both sides but I don't think anybody [TS]

00:29:34   even the people who wanted it on the other side you know the other location [TS]

00:29:38   nobody would have endorsed the idea of shipping both you know and I feel like [TS]

00:29:42   that's what that surface pro vs surface RT is that there were people within the [TS]

00:29:46   company wanted it one way and people who wanted it the other and so they said [TS]

00:29:50   okay let's make everybody happy will ship both yeah I wonder if if if sort of [TS]

00:29:55   bombers thought on that was like look we're already behind in this space let's [TS]

00:30:00   just get both out there and see which works if if any of them work and maybe [TS]

00:30:04   so but let the masses decide what they want since were we really can't afford [TS]

00:30:08   to make make a one bed here but you know I can't imagine that is how they played [TS]

00:30:15   out because of course they took it was in the 900 million dollar right down the [TS]

00:30:19   party that's it [TS]

00:30:21   is very detrimental to their that one quarter where it basically saying can [TS]

00:30:25   take their entire quarter so and that's not bombers as we just talked about you [TS]

00:30:29   know he's he's the business delivered his numbers and that was the one quarter [TS]

00:30:33   he did really awful on a billion here a billion there actually do have a problem [TS]

00:30:38   no matter how big you are ya right let me take a break here and thank our first [TS]

00:30:42   punch her first sponsor is our good friends at Squarespace you know [TS]

00:30:47   Squarespace Squarespace is constantly improving their platform with new [TS]

00:30:51   features new designs and even better support beautiful designs for you to [TS]

00:30:56   start with and all the style options you need to create your own unique website [TS]

00:31:01   for yourself or your business [TS]

00:31:03   easy to use their support team is available 24 hours a day seven days a [TS]

00:31:07   week if a hundred employees on this customer care team alone based in New [TS]

00:31:12   York it's an amazing thing that separates support alone is one of the [TS]

00:31:17   most amazing things [TS]

00:31:20   services plans start at just $1 a month and includes a FREE domain name if you [TS]

00:31:25   sign up for a year eight bucks a month for a top-notch platform for launching a [TS]

00:31:29   website you can start a trial with no credit card required pretrial right and [TS]

00:31:38   and that I just noticed from another sponsor another thing earlier and that [TS]

00:31:42   that no credit card required is a big deal because everybody knows if you free [TS]

00:31:45   trial requires a credit card that means if you forget to cancel your gonna start [TS]

00:31:49   getting charged and then you got a deal with that no credit card required free [TS]

00:31:53   try you don't start paying you don't give her credit card till you want to [TS]

00:31:57   pay and when that happens when you do want to pay to use the offer code bond B [TS]

00:32:03   O N D and your get 10% off your purchase and they'll know you came from the show [TS]

00:32:10   my thanks to Squarespace go to Squarespace dot com and remember the [TS]

00:32:15   offer code bond James Bond [TS]

00:32:18   a pic they're doing like these cutie codes were they pick things that are of [TS]

00:32:22   interest to this post to the show but it's easy to remember so go there and my [TS]

00:32:28   thanks to them they were done with Microsoft does that mean it's gonna be a [TS]

00:32:36   story for the next knows how many years I do that I guess the only other thing [TS]

00:32:39   is the fact that that telecoms from the the server-side servers and my colleague [TS]

00:32:47   Q branch Brent Simmons has written about it that he's really happy because he's [TS]

00:32:50   done a lot of coating on Azure you know as a backend for an iOS developer and is [TS]

00:32:57   his point I thought was really really astute where the old Microsoft was [TS]

00:33:02   always in their own universe technically and you know and it worked out for them [TS]

00:33:06   but you know they wrote everything was there that was their own OS their own [TS]

00:33:10   kernel you know they're the only ones in in the world who you know the whole [TS]

00:33:16   world effectively gone UNIX and Mac OS 10 is Unix Linux is a clone of Unix [TS]

00:33:22   Android runs on Linux kernel and add the kernel level you know everybody whole [TS]

00:33:29   world went UNIX except you know if your TiVo runs and Virgin Atlantic's except [TS]

00:33:34   Windows Windows is like this alternate universe it's this everything was their [TS]

00:33:39   own their own programming languages their own API's everything that a [TS]

00:33:45   technical leader in networking their own mail server you know everybody else is [TS]

00:33:49   using IMAP they have Outlook you know it's all proprietary that was the [TS]

00:33:52   Microsoft Way and it you know a little bit of stubbornness strategically it was [TS]

00:33:58   often about locked in [TS]

00:33:59   the windows server division than $1 and is very different you know they they [TS]

00:34:05   support you know you can do things like you know really hip modern stuff like [TS]

00:34:10   node.js and how do people say that they say the dot dot Jas you know yeah and I [TS]

00:34:20   wonder so you know you'd you'd hope that that mentality sort of spreads to the [TS]

00:34:25   other divisions now and they sort of Microsoft Certified opens up I think you [TS]

00:34:29   know if if they are going to do that Dell is obviously the right person to [TS]

00:34:32   make that happen I think that he recognizes it is realistic about the [TS]

00:34:36   world that we live in the world Microsoft exists and now and it can't be [TS]

00:34:40   the siloed behemoth anymore because that is the way that's the way forward of you [TS]

00:34:47   know the company eventually you know finding hard times very hard times [TS]

00:34:52   potentially while you know we talked about the numbers are great now you know [TS]

00:34:57   the numbers can be deceiving a lot of times the numbers are great for Nokia [TS]

00:35:01   the numbers are great for RIM leading up to win over said they're not great and [TS]

00:35:06   you could argue that microsoft certainly has a lot of the characteristics of [TS]

00:35:10   those same companies even when posting great numbers because there's a few [TS]

00:35:16   things that can happen that can make the ship sort of start to sink really [TS]

00:35:20   quickly and the della is given sort of all the stuff that you're talking about [TS]

00:35:25   and his his willingness to realize the world that we live in now I think that [TS]

00:35:31   he is probably the best candidates is sort of try to wake of Microsoft up yeah [TS]

00:35:37   I think numbers financial numbers are and I don't think there's any kind of [TS]

00:35:41   deep inside and it is common sense but it it seems like an awful lot of people [TS]

00:35:45   can be pulled by there a lagging indicator not a leading indicator right [TS]

00:35:50   so the iPhone didn't make a huge dent financially for a ball for a couple of [TS]

00:35:57   years you know it happened pretty quickly but certainly 2007 it it was not [TS]

00:36:03   a significant financial thing I mean the whole thing was a wedding their goal for [TS]

00:36:07   the first year as a selling one million phones yep [TS]

00:36:10   and you know a lot of people thought that was a lot of people thought they [TS]

00:36:15   weren't gonna do it or whether was it ten million in the first appearance may [TS]

00:36:18   be going in for the year maybe was for the year but yeah he did state that [TS]

00:36:22   million thing he wanted to get that there was a certain percentage that they [TS]

00:36:26   were trying to hit one percent of the phone market that's right it took a [TS]

00:36:33   little bit and if you just looked at how many phones they were selling when the [TS]

00:36:37   first iPhone came out it was not that huge and conversely RIM had a great year [TS]

00:36:45   in 2007 and 2008 Nokia was still good I was in the research on an an article on [TS]

00:36:51   writing maybe we'll talk about it later in the show the same same subject but [TS]

00:36:55   just about that same subject leading numbers as a leading lagging indicator [TS]

00:37:00   in October of 2007 here is a headline in the New York Times [TS]

00:37:06   this is five or six months after their iPhone shipped Nokia profit soars as [TS]

00:37:12   marketshare need nears 40 percent right you know the numbers are not I don't [TS]

00:37:21   know I think that that's right [TS]

00:37:26   who when Microsoft CFO step down early right and what did you write about that [TS]

00:37:32   I thought that was just remember that really stuck out my mind I think I said [TS]

00:37:37   using the game of Thrones analogy like who is who is best poised to know when [TS]

00:37:43   winter is coming right [TS]

00:37:44   the CFO right who is second best to know the CEO and so both of those guys are [TS]

00:37:49   gone right that this you know if there's anybody in Microsoft who maybe had a [TS]

00:37:56   good smell something in the air that you know not this quarter not next quarter [TS]

00:38:01   but down the road [TS]

00:38:03   yeah let's start looking at talking about years rather than quarters and [TS]

00:38:08   maybe look one or two years ahead [TS]

00:38:10   you know trouble is brewing very likely would have been the CFO he got out of [TS]

00:38:16   Dodge did ended by the way he i think he said at the time and Microsoft statement [TS]

00:38:22   at the time was it you know he was taking some he's been in the in the [TS]

00:38:27   ranks for you know thirty forty years or whatever it was and he is finally ready [TS]

00:38:33   to just take time and be with his family indefinitely and I think four months [TS]

00:38:37   later he was in a new CNN right and that does get back down to the those those [TS]

00:38:44   very simple PR optics of executive shake-ups a big companies that you know [TS]

00:38:49   you always say that you never want to make it look like there's any kind you [TS]

00:38:55   know no matter how ugly it is you want to downplay the ugliness [TS]

00:38:59   you know and that's true for all companies are not just laughing at [TS]

00:39:01   Microsoft mean it's the same way when forestall got pushed out at Apple and [TS]

00:39:08   they were a little bit little bit honest about it with the whole increased [TS]

00:39:13   collaboration you know which is right exactly where they were indirectly on [TS]

00:39:18   this they did say that for so was was the problem but they indicated there was [TS]

00:39:23   a problem with you know with everyone sort of being on the same page right you [TS]

00:39:28   could read between the lines in it came out that those of us who are left are [TS]

00:39:33   gonna get along a lot better now have you heard of anything from about him [TS]

00:39:38   recently by the way no I have not as you I haven't either no I would assume you [TS]

00:39:43   know like the way that these deals usually are structured is that someone [TS]

00:39:48   is you know being shown the door but at the same time they've somewhat [TS]

00:39:52   proprietary information and knowledge about especially with Apple with top [TS]

00:39:56   secret things sort of being worked on that Apple certainly doesn't want them [TS]

00:40:00   going to a competitor and really doesn't want them out on the marketplace at all [TS]

00:40:04   and so you know they usually give them some sort of exit package which is very [TS]

00:40:10   well you know compensated for ensuring that they stay with the company for [TS]

00:40:14   something like a year sometimes more sometimes less [TS]

00:40:17   I think Tony Fadell may have had the same type of thing you know he's a [TS]

00:40:21   Fidelis was not as contentious no definitely not I think that that's a [TS]

00:40:25   hundred percent true but you know he was you know as forestall I believe is now [TS]

00:40:29   special advisor to the CEO or whatever [TS]

00:40:32   yeah I don't know if you still is or not it's it's you know they they never named [TS]

00:40:35   it what is period was I have heard I have not heard what he's up to [TS]

00:40:39   I have heard from a pretty good little birdie that yeah they exactly what [TS]

00:40:48   you're saying is did but that he was offered what in never forget the words a [TS]

00:40:52   truckload of money and you drive off in this truck full of cash and four acts he [TS]

00:41:03   did not know is how how long axis has gas was a year but maybe it's never over [TS]

00:41:08   the next year for the next year you do nothing you cannot work for anybody and [TS]

00:41:13   you cannot speak to anybody and you don't treat you don't have a facebook [TS]

00:41:19   you you know anybody in a reporter's call you you don't answer the phone [TS]

00:41:24   not just talk about Apple but anything right so I do think that that's what has [TS]

00:41:29   happened in the interesting thing now of course is that it has been a year it's [TS]

00:41:32   it's it's just over a year right now it was yeah it's like December so it's you [TS]

00:41:37   know i i i remembered looking it up for the date and I knew that it was after [TS]

00:41:42   all of the product announcements [TS]

00:41:45   you know right it was the Tide's a slow period [TS]

00:41:49   yeah I forgot it was November or December but it was somewhere around [TS]

00:41:52   there and I ever since then I've sort of like [TS]

00:41:56   just so you know double check to make sure that he hasn't started you know [TS]

00:42:01   maybe showing up at events and stuff like that but so far I've heard nothing [TS]

00:42:06   I heard from a one reader who saw him somewhere wasn't you know was just [TS]

00:42:11   thinking it's like he's not you know housebound is not under house arrest but [TS]

00:42:18   yeah it's so I do think that we will see him surface at some point in the next [TS]

00:42:22   few months I do wonder you know he's he's a rhodes of the young guy that he [TS]

00:42:26   could definitely do a startup if he wanted to he would certainly have no [TS]

00:42:29   problem getting any funding that he wanted he said he's 41 something he's [TS]

00:42:33   right around my age very very one of the weird what if one of the weird wild [TS]

00:42:38   cards is to sort of take us to be together what if Microsoft tries to hire [TS]

00:42:41   you know a lot of people that's like a frequently asked question in my reader [TS]

00:42:46   email is not now but during the whole run-up was would that be possible I [TS]

00:42:53   guess it's not impossible but I always thought that it wasn't a good match for [TS]

00:42:57   either company just because they're so different right in pretty much every way [TS]

00:43:02   right and I don't think that he would want to I would imagine he would do [TS]

00:43:08   something more like a lot more like Tony Fadell go get some funding and start [TS]

00:43:14   something new that would be obviously you know nasty came you know relatively [TS]

00:43:19   big relatively quickly sold for over three billion dollars which is you know [TS]

00:43:25   talking billions not millions pretty good deal but compared the Apple where [TS]

00:43:30   fidel was before very very small right but you can't start something that right [TS]

00:43:35   you can either start something new that's relatively small even if it has a [TS]

00:43:38   lot of investment and very big goals or you can step into an existing giant and [TS]

00:43:44   I i just don't see forestall stepping into an existing giant I guess I guess [TS]

00:43:51   maybe the only one I could see and I have no idea what he'll do any insight [TS]

00:43:56   into the only real knowledge of what's going on but I wouldn't be shocked if [TS]

00:44:01   somehow Facebook convinced him to come there and to do some sort of skunkworks [TS]

00:44:05   project [TS]

00:44:07   that you know that he would be best suited for it just like you feel when I [TS]

00:44:12   see I see Facebook do sort of these deals a lot where they'd a higher sort [TS]

00:44:16   of above what you think their weight should be right where they they [TS]

00:44:19   convinced these people to get in there and and sort of work on these projects [TS]

00:44:23   and just give them whatever resources they need and so that wouldn't actually [TS]

00:44:28   shocked me even though that would be a shot sort of a shocking headline I [TS]

00:44:30   wouldn't be so surprised by the Yeah Yeah I think I would see it more really [TS]

00:44:35   only one more as Facebook incubating aid and ambitious new division i-aa not that [TS]

00:44:44   he would step in and run anything that Facebook already has yeah I could see [TS]

00:44:48   that I would say that is one existing company that I could see him going to [TS]

00:44:52   couldn't see him going to Google couldn't Microsoft I just don't see it a [TS]

00:44:56   really down adjusted to seems like it's it's intriguing that think about it but [TS]

00:45:00   I just don't see how it really match would have matched up for either of them [TS]

00:45:03   yet agree I largely agree with that i think you know the only reason I bring [TS]

00:45:07   it up now is just because the new leadership saying you know like maybe [TS]

00:45:10   maybe he's able to be convinced that things are really going to do they [TS]

00:45:14   really want to change things and so you know this is how we get this is how much [TS]

00:45:18   we want to change things were bringing in a guy synonymous with sort of apple [TS]

00:45:22   and and one of Steve Jobs lieutenant from the next days you know it's really [TS]

00:45:27   show you how different were thinking here's a question i've i've thought [TS]

00:45:31   about and to me I don't know I don't really mean it as a joke I actually [TS]

00:45:35   actually makes me a little sad is did you think Scott Forstall upgraded his [TS]

00:45:40   phone to iOS 7 that's a very good it is funny but he's still wouldn't have to [TS]

00:45:49   write like there's you could still get away with running well as the last [TS]

00:45:53   version of 66 but he'd have to also be running an old iPhone 5 can't you can't [TS]

00:45:58   use an iPhone 5s and it did he get a five ass after like buy it online I he [TS]

00:46:06   seems like a green five see gardener but I i I know it is it's funny but it's not [TS]

00:46:14   I've met forestall a few types can say I'm close to home but I've met him he [TS]

00:46:18   was always very nice to me and you know i i liked him right and you know I would [TS]

00:46:27   I would also say that are clearly I'm a big fan of his work and wow you know [TS]

00:46:31   whether it was the right move or not to squeeze them out is almost beside the [TS]

00:46:35   point I just feel bad that it didn't work out I do in a certain way and I can [TS]

00:46:40   imagine it if it was his life's work i mean the only thing he ever did was work [TS]

00:46:44   it next it went right from college to next and worked his way up and you know [TS]

00:46:49   it was a continuous thing for his entire adult life working from next to Apple [TS]

00:46:56   and Mac OS 10 transition to Mac OS 10 to the entire creation of iOS and you know [TS]

00:47:05   I think very clearly they took iOS in a different direction and so yeah he'd be [TS]

00:47:10   using it everyday and staring at like the cause of his [TS]

00:47:13   what else what else is he going to do is not gonna switch to Android surely he [TS]

00:47:17   still is using an iPhone I think I think I can imagine my only real like I I [TS]

00:47:23   don't think I've ever interacted with I don't think in all the time we get all [TS]

00:47:26   the different events I don't think I ever actually spoke with him but I have [TS]

00:47:29   seen him of course of number of times and actually saw him out in about once [TS]

00:47:33   at a concert of all places and I just remember might might might lasting sort [TS]

00:47:38   of memory of that is it's him just like being very adamant about taking so many [TS]

00:47:45   pictures using his iPhone and you know that leads me to believe that even if he [TS]

00:47:49   hates I was seven he has to like the iPhone 5 just for the better camera [TS]

00:47:53   might be just using it solely for the camera and willing to forego his sort of [TS]

00:47:59   hatred if he has a 79 surely up until when the iPhone 5s came out he'd never [TS]

00:48:07   bought an iPhone in his life i mean he'd been using the new ones you know as soon [TS]

00:48:11   as they were you know prototypes were in from the factory [TS]

00:48:16   you know and and presumably every single detail in pixel of the OS met with his [TS]

00:48:24   approval or at least you know he'd gotten his input into a now to me it's [TS]

00:48:31   like it's like a weird [TS]

00:48:33   magnuson area what does he do go online and do it and he can't go to an Apple [TS]

00:48:37   store right so he's gotta go online or maybe no maybe as an assistant or [TS]

00:48:45   something you know this is like the end of Shawshank Redemption [TS]

00:48:51   like this is not but it's more like the character the old man who sort of gets [TS]

00:48:57   reintroduced into the world after all the years and right in prison for hate [TS]

00:49:02   it and use it doesn't know how to do anything right and it's a hasn't seen a [TS]

00:49:06   supermarket with with OCR scanners [TS]

00:49:09   was it had the thing with george bush the first george bush president has he [TS]

00:49:14   been a vice president for like you know from Mike 1980 and then he was the [TS]

00:49:18   president and then you know it came out like when he's running against clinton [TS]

00:49:21   in ninety-three he'd never seen a OCR scanner in a supermarket why make fun of [TS]

00:49:26   him for that guides you know hadn't done grocery shopping to what did you think [TS]

00:49:30   that the vice president does grocery shopping now so be you know last time [TS]

00:49:35   he'd been in the supermarket was like 1979 I don't know I just to his [TS]

00:49:42   something to imagine I don't know I'm betting he does I'm betting he's alive [TS]

00:49:46   everybody does to think it would be hard I think it also would be very hard for [TS]

00:49:53   someone like him to use old technology when he's been so bleeding edge of the [TS]

00:49:57   entire time [TS]

00:49:58   be frustrating but he's like in a unique situation where you know that the [TS]

00:50:04   what-ifs we'll never stop in terms of you know what he's got this hand but [TS]

00:50:09   that's my guess my guess is he has a 5s 2007 and just see this might even run I [TS]

00:50:16   was seven that one because it's finally doesn't crash that raises another [TS]

00:50:23   question do these sign up for a developer is shirley is old one doesn't [TS]

00:50:28   work he's can't you know I'm pretty sure that you know that is cut off from the [TS]

00:50:33   Apple VP endings can't just [TS]

00:50:36   do that and you think like he's been tinkering around with making some apps I [TS]

00:50:42   wonder why don't I mean it's absolutely the case I don't think that he was spent [TS]

00:50:46   his days as a senior VP writing code but I mean he you know that's he worked his [TS]

00:50:52   way up from the right yeah I remember there was it was it [TS]

00:50:57   WWDC session a couple years ago and it's sort of an obscure one and I forget who [TS]

00:51:03   is leading it but I was sitting in the audience and it was but the guy on stage [TS]

00:51:09   was an old next and what he's doing is still just an engineer senior engineer [TS]

00:51:14   at our bond is given the WBC presentation he was talking about [TS]

00:51:16   something and iOS that was maybe it was back those 10 but either way that had [TS]

00:51:22   roots back to an old thing that he had done it next in 1989 and he's here and [TS]

00:51:28   show you what I did and then I wrote 1989 milos next and you know you could [TS]

00:51:33   see the roots are here today and he was like here's the about box from the thing [TS]

00:51:38   I wrote then and it was the credits for him and Scott Forstall I don't happen to [TS]

00:51:43   the other guy and is enforced always till the senior VP was spent last year [TS]

00:51:49   but it was a big big belly laugh at the audience yes he was he was listed second [TS]

00:51:56   cuz he was like an intern or something but you know he was writing code I don't [TS]

00:52:01   know could be yeah it would be interesting if he came out with [TS]

00:52:07   something if he you know came out you know D cloaked with some kind of start [TS]

00:52:11   up that was iOS related and so he's always been a software guy so you'd [TS]

00:52:19   assume he's not going to do sort of the Tony Fadell you know start up so he [TS]

00:52:24   would do more of a software type start-up you wouldn't you would assume [TS]

00:52:26   maybe he's maybe he would pair up with someone who has sort of hardware [TS]

00:52:30   experience and certainly there are plenty of Acts Apple people now with the [TS]

00:52:35   hardware experience that he would know but if he were to do something by [TS]

00:52:38   himself it would presumably be something and software [TS]

00:52:42   I don't know good question I take a break and thank my second sponsor and it [TS]

00:52:54   is our good friends at pack place back place is unlimited on throttled back up [TS]

00:53:04   for $5 a month they have an iOS app for Mac install back plays on your Mac it's [TS]

00:53:10   a little just a simple little thing that goes in System Preferences runs in the [TS]

00:53:15   background uploads everything on your Mac that you want if you have something [TS]

00:53:20   you don't want backed up is easy to make exclusion folders everything you want [TS]

00:53:24   backed up though goes to their thing in the cloud $5 a month as much space as [TS]

00:53:29   you have in your Mac back at all just takes longer for the first backup that's [TS]

00:53:33   the only there is no catch even iOS app that you can use to access and share any [TS]

00:53:39   of your files so when you're out about you can fire up the app on your iPhone [TS]

00:53:42   get anything that's on your Mac cuz its mirrored in the cloud their profile look [TS]

00:53:47   something up its founded by X Apple engineers I always emphasized this [TS]

00:53:52   because it is written by people who you know knowing get the Mac it doesn't feel [TS]

00:53:58   like some kind of foreign thing that was ported to Mac runs great on Mavericks up [TS]

00:54:03   to date there's no add-ons no gimmicks no additional charges you just sign up [TS]

00:54:08   you can sub start your free give it a try see that it works like a two-week [TS]

00:54:14   trial period [TS]

00:54:15   and then when you're ready to go when you see how it works $5 a month per [TS]

00:54:19   computer and that's it [TS]

00:54:22   the simplest online backup program to use just install it does the rest and I [TS]

00:54:27   always emphasized this it's such peace of mind I'm happy back plz user and it [TS]

00:54:34   it is it's such a peace of mind to have a backup that's off site because you [TS]

00:54:40   just never know you know fire theft like I said I pointed out when marco was on [TS]

00:54:45   the show the other week you know the things you don't even think of light [TS]

00:54:49   water damage like a pipe in the ceiling above your computer is and then and [TS]

00:54:53   somebody some reader wrote in and said that exact scenario happened to them [TS]

00:54:57   where they're upstairs neighbor left their tub running and he came in and his [TS]

00:55:01   MacBook was just completely drenched you know by the gallons of water just [TS]

00:55:06   completely fried everything on his desk is hard drive so if you have like a time [TS]

00:55:11   machine hard drive next year that's good but it's not off-site back boys gives [TS]

00:55:17   you peace of mind really great service where do you go to find out more go to [TS]

00:55:22   www.blackberry.com / daring fireball and don't know you came from here and then [TS]

00:55:34   they came from the show and can recommend them enough really really good [TS]

00:55:38   stuff thanks to back please [TS]

00:55:40   about Facebook paper yes I have not reviewed you don't have facebook yes [TS]

00:55:54   this is the dilemma and explain why I have not written about this much under [TS]

00:55:58   incredible I have never signed up for Facebook still haven't have never been [TS]

00:56:05   tempted to until now because I'm tempted [TS]

00:56:09   Facebook just use paper and in fact I i've been talking about this for longer [TS]

00:56:15   than just the last week because I actually got a briefing from Facebook in [TS]

00:56:21   New York a week or two before paper came out they you know Mike Mathis emailed me [TS]

00:56:26   and said hey you know I got 55 got something to show you know what might [TS]

00:56:31   come up and see you in New York as I sure and i was just blown away [TS]

00:56:35   absolutely positive I haven't written about it because I don't know how to [TS]

00:56:38   contextualize it yet because I am so why don't you just make it can you make like [TS]

00:56:44   just a dummy account friend anyone just you know now you know and it's we I [TS]

00:56:48   guess that's what I should do I don't know I mean I've seen I most of my [TS]

00:56:51   experience at the apt is with Mike's account I just used my baby he just has [TS]

00:56:57   a beautiful family and that's why you're like well you know that's the pushback [TS]

00:57:00   against it the pushback against paper that I've seen is that it's it it's [TS]

00:57:06   great if your friends are all UI design artists who take great photos and it [TS]

00:57:15   isn't great if you're like most people on Facebook and its family takes really [TS]

00:57:21   shitty photos you no posts [TS]

00:57:24   you know cat gifts and stuff like that so your your predicament raises an [TS]

00:57:31   interesting question which is that I wonder if Facebook is able to either for [TS]

00:57:37   the first time obviously you know that you're you're certainly an oddity in the [TS]

00:57:41   in being in a developed country you know and not having having Facebook at this [TS]

00:57:46   point but I wonder if they feel like it's also an opportunity to not only [TS]

00:57:51   bring in new but re-engage sort of people who are who are burnt out by [TS]

00:57:55   Facebook which is many many people I mean basically you talk to anyone in you [TS]

00:58:00   know within your own personal circles you'll have several people who say like [TS]

00:58:05   Facebook is so lame now Facebook is sort of it's all just you know it's also my [TS]

00:58:10   parents or its just you know just sort of like old high school friends and I [TS]

00:58:16   never talk to any more using it so it's really not that interesting to me [TS]

00:58:19   anymore but paper you know is a complete reimagining of what the experience [TS]

00:58:23   should be like and there are definitely things that I like and don't like about [TS]

00:58:27   it certainly is beautifully designed and I think there's some great functionality [TS]

00:58:33   in there but I don't really i mean week we could dive into all the little of [TS]

00:58:37   little things about it I'm a little concerned that a lot of what and you [TS]

00:58:42   will know this better having talked to Mike Maddux about it directly but I'm a [TS]

00:58:45   little bit concerned that it's that it's a little bit too worried about sort of [TS]

00:58:51   addressing the Twitter question head-on which is you know like no one is using [TS]

00:58:55   facebook really to talk about current events or at least the right people [TS]

00:59:00   aren't using Facebook that they want to get the word out there like during the [TS]

00:59:04   Super Bowl you know like sweets are going crazy everyone's talking about it [TS]

00:59:07   is anyone using facebook facebook tried to get people using it this year they [TS]

00:59:10   they'd reached out to buttress celebrities [TS]

00:59:13   document leaked you know talking about like what you should be using Facebook [TS]

00:59:17   for during the Super Bowl in so when I look at paper when I look beyond the [TS]

00:59:23   obvious beauty on the surface I see sort of a a desire to get back into sort of [TS]

00:59:28   the real-time news conversation which I don't know I don't know if that's coming [TS]

00:59:34   from the right place or not [TS]

00:59:36   yeah I think you're off on [TS]

00:59:38   and having talked to Mike about it I don't think that's what their goal is I [TS]

00:59:43   think their goal is the little bit it's almost obvious which is that in fact [TS]

00:59:51   it's a direct answer to the thing I just said a minute ago that the that the [TS]

00:59:54   complaint is that people aren't cultivating what they post to Facebook [TS]

00:59:58   to make it beautiful and papers theory is the paper teams there is nobody is [TS]

01:00:05   going to do that until we give them beautiful way a beautiful interface to [TS]

01:00:09   do it that it's it's there if we build it they will come [TS]

01:00:13   theory that they have to build a beautiful interface to paper first that [TS]

01:00:19   encourages a sort of moral I know that a lot of people are gonna laugh and say [TS]

01:00:26   come on Facebook and artistic expression [TS]

01:00:28   you know not what it was for but that's you know that's a little bit high [TS]

01:00:33   polluting but it's more like what they're thinking that if we give him [TS]

01:00:36   this beautiful serene interface that that's why that's when people will start [TS]

01:00:41   posting things that actually fit better in paper in a little bit more cultivated [TS]

01:00:47   but curated I don't know what you want to say but that people will generate [TS]

01:00:52   content that fits in paper and fitzy feels right and paper only after paper [TS]

01:00:58   is out and actually exists that has a good old first so I don't think it's [TS]

01:01:03   about real-time stuff okay that's interesting so that's why I can [TS]

01:01:08   understand how I can understand that line of thinking I will say one other [TS]

01:01:13   thing that I did here so this was sort of this was being talked about in paper [TS]

01:01:18   was released in a bunch of people sort of tweeted about it I did and others but [TS]

01:01:23   have since heard from a pretty good source on this that it's also not out of [TS]

01:01:27   left field to think that this is how Facebook is sort of experimenting with [TS]

01:01:34   new UI to see what would work for the actual product itself so I asked I asked [TS]

01:01:41   about that like so much of this response did you get that not a direct response [TS]

01:01:46   and I you know so I don't put words in the [TS]

01:01:48   Mikes mouth or anybody so i didnt get but you know I think reading between the [TS]

01:01:54   landing just looking at the app it is clear you know and it's exactly what you [TS]

01:01:58   wrote on Paris lemon that there is no way that they could drop you know put [TS]

01:02:05   out a Facebook app version that was this and just no way too many users right and [TS]

01:02:13   its two way to different and it doesn't have the complete Facebook experience it [TS]

01:02:18   doesn't have everything though it does have a lot i think is way more than I [TS]

01:02:22   thought it it's it is a very largely a you know it's you know what it's a lot [TS]

01:02:29   like it's a lot like mobile email clients where you know maybe your mobile [TS]

01:02:33   email client doesn't do everything that you can do with the email but it does [TS]

01:02:37   most of it right there you can do most of what you doin email with the mail [TS]

01:02:41   claim you're using on your phone even if it doesn't do everything and you might [TS]

01:02:45   have to use something at your desk to create I don't think I can you create [TS]

01:02:49   new folders in mail are most mail apps on iphone maybe not but you know you can [TS]

01:02:54   certainly read all of your mail and reply to it [TS]

01:02:56   do a lot of other stuff flag comments that Facebook paper is largely a an [TS]

01:03:01   alternative to Facebook . out your phone when I already I replace facebook.com [TS]

01:03:07   with paper pretty much [TS]

01:03:10   day one because it is so much better it's just a number of things are better [TS]

01:03:15   about it I find the performance actually better which is sort of surprising given [TS]

01:03:19   how visual it is but formats is better [TS]

01:03:22   it's obviously looks a lot better and it does like you know what you're saying it [TS]

01:03:25   performs the basic sort of the high-level functions that you need the [TS]

01:03:29   one thing its missing the one complaint that people do bring up you use Facebook [TS]

01:03:33   is that is missing events and the rumor of course is that Facebook is working on [TS]

01:03:38   a separate events at the air that's what I think [TS]

01:03:42   well and I think it all it it fits and I think you know I'd certainly don't know [TS]

01:03:47   I don't don't know his mind but the evidence that I've seen with the [TS]

01:03:52   acquisitions they've made including mattresses push pop press little over [TS]

01:03:59   two years ago when he bought so far and also knowing and you know this is [TS]

01:04:05   something I can't name names but its iOS and Mac developer community they pretty [TS]

01:04:11   much went to anybody who's done like Apple Design Award level work and made a [TS]

01:04:19   quick higher offers [TS]

01:04:21   there's an awful lot of an awful lot of people who you think I wonder if they [TS]

01:04:24   went to them the answer is probably yes which makes sense for them right [TS]

01:04:31   like what's the best talent in the world to do what they want to do it's right in [TS]

01:04:35   front of them right and i think that explanation is that for a while Zach had [TS]

01:04:40   in mind that Facebook was a website and that the mobile version should be a [TS]

01:04:47   mobile version of that website and you know the area you know the early [TS]

01:04:50   versions of the Facebook app for iPhone where is the developer was a joke it was [TS]

01:04:55   Joe Joe Hewitt you know Hewitt and he did great work and he did you know it [TS]

01:04:59   was you know do you do you remember the html5 version you know but yet they were [TS]

01:05:04   native apps that was like the first really impresses application that I saw [TS]

01:05:10   again not a native application on the web browser built for the iPhone well so [TS]

01:05:14   London you can definitely say for the sake and Facebook is as soon as the [TS]

01:05:17   iPhone came out they instantly so we need to be on that and they did it you [TS]

01:05:21   know before the Riva naps and then when there were perhaps but they do their [TS]

01:05:25   initial appt was a lot more like not native you know using web things in a [TS]

01:05:31   web use and stuff like that and I feel like it like a lot of you know as a [TS]

01:05:38   suggestion indication that he is a very good CEO I think Zach had a complete 180 [TS]

01:05:43   and realize you know what [TS]

01:05:45   native apps matter for mobile performance for latency for just the way [TS]

01:05:50   you know it it just isn't gonna work to to to be one level behind in abstraction [TS]

01:05:57   with all the little nagging things that that entails and it was like so what do [TS]

01:06:04   we do let's hire some great native app developers and designers and I think [TS]

01:06:10   also part of that is that you on the phone mobile in general it makes more [TS]

01:06:19   sense to have not a ton of apps but more separate apps them one app that does [TS]

01:06:26   everything especially for something the size of facebook facebook can do so many [TS]

01:06:31   that you know you do events you check you do [TS]

01:06:34   status updates you pictures like all these things it's like it was getting is [TS]

01:06:39   getting almost ridiculous like the side menu and that's in the previous one [TS]

01:06:44   where it's like they're so there's so many different things that you can drill [TS]

01:06:47   down into its almost like ridiculous to try to hit some of them with with the [TS]

01:06:50   fingertip right and you know take a look at apple with iTunes right now on the [TS]

01:06:54   Mac and Windows and there's a large part of that is because they have to maintain [TS]

01:06:58   parity on Mac and Windows but it's a monolithic app and you know it's almost [TS]

01:07:04   at this point it's almost infamous for being overloaded with responsibilities [TS]

01:07:11   and iOS they viewed and as sort of stayed with everything broken apart in [TS]

01:07:17   two separate app stores in music player app and there's a store out for buying [TS]

01:07:23   music [TS]

01:07:24   and a podcast app for podcasts and you can see you know a lot of people are [TS]

01:07:30   happy with that with the podcast app adjust the fact that the way Apple sees [TS]

01:07:34   it it should be a separate app says a lot you know the dads the way that's the [TS]

01:07:39   way to develop for mobile and I think Facebook has that in mind too and so did [TS]

01:07:43   you talk to us at all about the fact that it's it's obviously iPhone first [TS]

01:07:48   and iPhone or iPad right and I think it's you know it's just it's the obvious [TS]

01:07:54   that you know it took them this long to build the iPhone version and it's ready [TS]

01:07:59   to ship and so they shipped it and you know no comment on you know whether it [TS]

01:08:05   there's going to be an iPad version or there's going to be an Android version [TS]

01:08:08   and although a I got the feeling you can quote me on it and and that's not a [TS]

01:08:14   quote but I did get the feeling of that his team at least at the moment is an [TS]

01:08:19   Iowa steam that they did you know that it's a relatively small [TS]

01:08:23   you know that if and when there is going to be an Android version of paper that [TS]

01:08:27   its need to expand to do it well and I i wonder if it would even be that team [TS]

01:08:35   right like if if this really is sort of thinking about this in the in the in the [TS]

01:08:40   new anyway that you're suggesting sort of moving away from that this Facebook [TS]

01:08:44   is a web site and now it's it's it's whatever it needs to be on whatever [TS]

01:08:48   device you're using and so you know you could certainly make the argument that [TS]

01:08:52   maybe it should be different for Android entirely then it is even right now for [TS]

01:08:57   with paper with iOS I have i think thats difference screen sizes and different [TS]

01:09:03   metaphor is indifferent you know capabilities you know I wes is is much [TS]

01:09:09   more everybody's always said that suits you know things animate smoother its has [TS]

01:09:15   these transitions and has [TS]

01:09:17   when you want to do GPU and sent tens of things you you have this tremendous [TS]

01:09:24   advantage of only having to target you know two or three GPUs I don't know what [TS]

01:09:32   I don't know how far back Facebook paperworks I don't know if they support [TS]

01:09:35   like before us or what the limit is but even so it's there's only three Jay even [TS]

01:09:39   if they go back all the way to do for us it's only three generations that they [TS]

01:09:43   have to support and it's a very very graphically intensive at so I wonder I [TS]

01:09:48   wonder if Facebook will be sorted the first major service to go like total in [TS]

01:09:55   a totally different direction with their application for Android just because of [TS]

01:09:59   what you're talking about where madison's team is is i would assume all [TS]

01:10:03   iOS right now and they would either have to hire and sort of trained people to in [TS]

01:10:10   terms of what they built for iOS and sort of it even though it's not [TS]

01:10:13   technically be like a quote unquote port it would still sort of the airport right [TS]

01:10:17   it would be like right if they were going to call it paper yeah so interface [TS]

01:10:23   and style I don't think they're gonna do I really wouldn't be surprised if [TS]

01:10:26   there's never I don't know the answer really don't i mean but my my guess is I [TS]

01:10:31   would be surprised if there's never paper for Android but like you just said [TS]

01:10:35   if there's something else [TS]

01:10:37   Facebook something else for Android that is has a different interface and then [TS]

01:10:43   never exist for iOS which by the way they've done that's what Facebook home [TS]

01:10:47   was right right was right it was a hundred only [TS]

01:10:49   yeah I and maybe that's actually a good way of thinking that they've already [TS]

01:10:54   done that they've already done a friend right that doesn't exist on iOS and it's [TS]

01:10:58   sort of embracing rather than trying to do this [TS]

01:11:03   seen them as two versions of the same idea treat them as different to [TS]

01:11:08   different things which i think is actually closer to the truth [TS]

01:11:12   yeah and don't do that way don't see this the way that Windows and Mac OS 10 [TS]

01:11:18   involved where a company like Adobe more or less had the exact same interface for [TS]

01:11:24   you know Photoshop and InDesign and Illustrator on Windows and Mac you know [TS]

01:11:29   where the only differences were the iOS you know the specific things like that [TS]

01:11:34   menu bars at the top and the Mac and menu is a window on Windows but [TS]

01:11:39   otherwise it you know they shipped at the same time they had the same features [TS]

01:11:44   they were built from the same code base I don't think that's the way to do iOS [TS]

01:11:48   and Android I really agree I think that the you know to too often we see these [TS]

01:11:54   companies go into it while we built the iOS version is doing great now let's [TS]

01:11:59   make the Android version it's gonna be the same Instagram its exact same thing [TS]

01:12:04   as an example where that makes sense because it does but when you would you [TS]

01:12:12   should go into the mentality was we want to create the best application for this [TS]

01:12:15   specific device rather than the other way around [TS]

01:12:20   yeah and I you know Twitter maybe as an example of doing that wrong where [TS]

01:12:24   they're sort of developing this like single-minded single Twitter interface [TS]

01:12:30   that everywhere right you know I don't though we'll see if that continues that [TS]

01:12:35   was that was that was definitely the marching order for a long time and I [TS]

01:12:41   think that a lot of that was driven by the need for simplicity cross-platform [TS]

01:12:45   simplicity to get users to understand what what they're doing when they look [TS]

01:12:50   at one thing you know it's like oh here's where the treatment is like so I [TS]

01:12:53   know what to do but I would be surprised if that's changing 250 [TS]

01:12:58   so things with paper the thing that fascinates me and it's it's there's two [TS]

01:13:02   sides to it there's one is it a good client for Facebook and that I don't [TS]

01:13:06   know how to judge cuz I'm gonna Facebook users so I honestly don't know how to [TS]

01:13:09   judge but two from a design perspective it is fascinating because it's it is [TS]

01:13:18   almost like a real imagination of what I owe us should be it doesn't feel foreign [TS]

01:13:26   it doesn't feel wake like alien but it's definitely not standard and it's it is [TS]

01:13:34   and it's it is of a piece with Mike madison's previous works and very [TS]

01:13:40   specifically with with the work they did it push pop press the only the only [TS]

01:13:45   example of which we could we we saw publicly was the [TS]

01:13:48   algor book our choice right which is worth but if you're an interface [TS]

01:13:54   designer it's worth buying that not to read even if no interest in the book [TS]

01:13:59   itself it's worth buying as an example of an alternative way to think about [TS]

01:14:04   touch screen design is it still it still available hope so I don't know I don't [TS]

01:14:11   know but this you know and I don't know how much you know you never know I mean [TS]

01:14:18   there is a team in his modest is not the only designer but I think the whole team [TS]

01:14:23   is on board with the philosophy and the philosophy is why I think one way to put [TS]

01:14:29   it is that it that Apple wasn't old enough with iOS right and you go back [TS]

01:14:36   all the way to Steve Jobs is 2007 unveiling of the original iPhone and and [TS]

01:14:44   he spoke at the highest level was introducing in sort of framing how we [TS]

01:14:49   should think about this that it was when he sneaked snuck in the the big about a [TS]

01:14:55   stylist you know that [TS]

01:14:56   1984 we made this thing called them back and you did all this stuff visually [TS]

01:15:01   using a mouse to guide her on-screen what we gonna do for a pointer here goes [TS]

01:15:09   well the stylist and everybody of course not terrible and everybody laugh because [TS]

01:15:14   stylist a piece of junk you gonna lose it nobody wants that no we're all born [TS]

01:15:19   with a pointer right here and he stuck up his index finger right and that's the [TS]

01:15:22   you know high-level that's the the breakthrough of Iowa State you just use [TS]

01:15:27   your finger and you do things so instead of having a scrollbar that you moved to [TS]

01:15:32   scroll the content you just touch the content and move it and you scroll and [TS]

01:15:36   there's not if you don't have a button you know like and you think back and we [TS]

01:15:39   you know it's easy to sort of forget and you see this evolution over the years of [TS]

01:15:43   the Mac and Windows where we're like we have the wheel or the trackpad or [TS]

01:15:50   something but think back to the original Mac and the original windows before the [TS]

01:15:54   ribbon scroll Wilson license to scroll the content you had to put the cursor on [TS]

01:15:59   the arrow in the scrollbar declared or get on the elevator whatever you want to [TS]

01:16:05   call it and drag it and it was a complete level of abstraction that you [TS]

01:16:12   had to click the button the arrow buttons to scroll it or click the actual [TS]

01:16:15   click and drag the actual will to do it and iOS completely eliminated the entire [TS]

01:16:22   thing where it's all just direct but in other areas it's a lot of the standard [TS]

01:16:29   iOS navigation just think about like to add that i think are very very almost [TS]

01:16:36   canonical if you want to study what it is to be an iOS app mail and like the [TS]

01:16:43   settings out setup is maybe the best example settings is just pure I less [TS]

01:16:48   it's a lot of buttons and even like you go into a level and then how do you go [TS]

01:16:53   back you go to the top left and there's a button and hit the back button and you [TS]

01:16:58   click the tab the back button as though you use your finger to tap the button in [TS]

01:17:02   the same way that you do use a mouse pointer to click a button on an end the [TS]

01:17:09   madness philosophy and and paper really exemplifies this is that you get rid of [TS]

01:17:14   those buttons too and you just open and close things you know you can tap on a [TS]

01:17:20   thing to open and close it you just squeeze it and it gets smaller and goes [TS]

01:17:24   back to the smaller state and it's not just and it's not just the obvious sort [TS]

01:17:29   of or not what's been around for a while like pinch to zoom in sort of pitch to [TS]

01:17:33   close it is like a simple is sort of drag up in drag down yeah yeah so you [TS]

01:17:38   don't even have to use two fingers it's that's what that's my favorite thing [TS]

01:17:42   about yet where you know I'm looking at it right now and just like the sort of [TS]

01:17:46   bar along the bottom with the content that you scroll through it almost is in [TS]

01:17:52   a way it's like in the shape of your thumb right it's a drawing or some words [TS]

01:17:55   it to to put it [TS]

01:17:57   place it on there and then once you do that you just sort of move up and then [TS]

01:18:01   you're right into it and you can read it the entire way when it's going up [TS]

01:18:04   because it's it's just killing it right up and then to to get away you just push [TS]

01:18:08   it back down it's it's very well done and it's very natural and it is really [TS]

01:18:14   unlike the standard system in a profound way even though it's so simple and part [TS]

01:18:20   of it there's there's a humility towards it where it's not a lot of like [TS]

01:18:24   with bangs stuff that you could i mean I'm not for example I know that Matusz [TS]

01:18:31   worked on when he was at Apple years ago worked on time machine and time machines [TS]

01:18:36   interface is look at look at this this is supposed to be like whoa right with [TS]

01:18:41   the whole windows 8 going into 3d and they're in outer space and it's like it [TS]

01:18:47   is a very ostentatious design and it doesn't matter where you know whether [TS]

01:18:51   you think it's a good design for for a backup system or not it's ostentatious [TS]

01:18:56   write the paper thing is is very humble and my opinion because I think normal [TS]

01:19:01   people they might think hey this is nice but they're not gonna be like wow it [TS]

01:19:06   it's you know and I mean that as a very high compliment that it's it's not [TS]

01:19:10   trying to show off its all and I think there's tons I know for a fact that [TS]

01:19:15   there's tons and tons of work to get these things because they're not built [TS]

01:19:20   into the system you don't get them for free from Cocoa Touch this these you [TS]

01:19:25   know opening and closing and smooth everything is super smooth all custom [TS]

01:19:31   and it's all super smooth and the big problem with any kind of high-level [TS]

01:19:38   navigate this design is that there's a very few number of gestures available [TS]

01:19:45   and you have to allocate them you have to decide to be very careful about it so [TS]

01:19:49   just think back to the original Mac and I think in hindsight we can probably [TS]

01:19:54   agree that a mistake that they made was that single click in the Finder selects [TS]

01:20:04   an item and double-click opens because double-click is cognitively difficult [TS]

01:20:10   for normal people it is they end and you know and it's led to you know the the [TS]

01:20:16   best example as people whose parents double click on links in [TS]

01:20:23   race because they they somehow they they don't understand that some things you [TS]

01:20:27   click on to open in some things you double click open and you kinda have to [TS]

01:20:31   have a deeper understanding of how the computer is working as opposed to how [TS]

01:20:36   the interface is working to know that difference which is why you know it [TS]

01:20:41   makes way more sense the way that I west and almost every modern system works for [TS]

01:20:47   you tapped open and you do like a long tap to select or something else but that [TS]

01:20:53   tapped oh and do you have so few things to do and and you don't want to get into [TS]

01:21:01   a thing where where anything primary involves things like well you can put [TS]

01:21:07   two fingers on screen and dried up and down while normal people are never gonna [TS]

01:21:10   get that right [TS]

01:21:12   pinching with two fingers they'll get because it's it is it feels real but [TS]

01:21:18   things like the iOS four finger swipe to switch apps that's a power user will [TS]

01:21:24   feature that it's absolutely fine that Apple made that I think it's fine [TS]

01:21:29   feature I use it especially on the iPad I don't have it turned on the phone but [TS]

01:21:33   on the iPad I use it all the time but I you know it it's I guarantee you 99.5% [TS]

01:21:40   of all iPad users have no idea that it exists and if you told them it exists [TS]

01:21:45   they would forget it by tomorrow so what Facebook had to solve with paper is what [TS]

01:21:52   can you how much can you do with one finger just dragging you've got left [TS]

01:21:57   right and you've got up down and that's it and so you go left right to navigate [TS]

01:22:04   between items in the stream [TS]

01:22:07   and up to open down to close and it's even though it's a little bit more sort [TS]

01:22:16   of interesting how they're doing it because there's also down like it seems [TS]

01:22:21   like one of the issues that they're having which I understand is that people [TS]

01:22:24   don't know at first how to create a post right because that's another swipe down [TS]

01:22:29   from the top and there's no real indication that that's there is through [TS]

01:22:33   the walk-through of course but there's no indication when you're just looking [TS]

01:22:36   at it and that's what you would do great and that in mind I create a new norm I [TS]

01:22:40   guess for that and now it's instead of being the side sort of the hamburger bun [TS]

01:22:44   to the side it's now wiping down to you to it [TS]

01:22:47   yeah and maybe that's a playoff spot where it's not quite fair of me to say [TS]

01:22:52   that it doesn't feel foreign because it is because its non-standard but I guess [TS]

01:22:59   what I see is that I when I look at paper I see a way that the whole system [TS]

01:23:05   could work that way right that in some alternate universe Mike Matusz is that [TS]

01:23:10   still a top ones in charge of iOS four is a a lead developer and that iOS 7 [TS]

01:23:16   works like this across the board and that there's you know for example [TS]

01:23:20   there's no status bar all the time in facebook paper but it's there you just [TS]

01:23:28   pull down at the top a little bit and then you can see it yeah and I know for [TS]

01:23:33   a fact that is you know it's a stupid little thing but I know from talking to [TS]

01:23:38   other designers and people who think about things like this is an awful lot [TS]

01:23:41   of people who think that that's the way I always should work that the status bar [TS]

01:23:45   is clutter and that you know why not just give the whole screen and you know [TS]

01:23:49   show the status when you need it and how do you do it just put down you know what [TS]

01:23:55   else I just realized just playing around with it right now I think they're one of [TS]

01:23:59   the first ones that I can remember actually doing this in a way i think is [TS]

01:24:04   correct which is that when you do so when you do you're on the main screen [TS]

01:24:07   swipe down to get to sort of where you can post where your profile is that back [TS]

01:24:12   you know the back of the sort of cards metaphor ya win that puts the main [TS]

01:24:18   sort of card at the bottom so you can still get back there by tapping on it [TS]

01:24:23   and then it just pops back up right so that's why you never get back yes but it [TS]

01:24:27   is impossible to actually pull up the menu from very you know how in so many [TS]

01:24:33   apps now with iOS 7 they have the poll up menu where you know where their [TS]

01:24:37   flashlights and all those other things [TS]

01:24:39   yeah it is actually impossible to do that at least as far as I can see right [TS]

01:24:44   now to pull up the menu which is great because so many of these apps that are [TS]

01:24:50   trying to be clever with sort of using new UI forget that you know there is [TS]

01:24:55   already a systemwide you I to pull up that that menu right and somehow assume [TS]

01:25:03   you can do this in this setting paper has figured out like if we put this this [TS]

01:25:10   card at the bottom and ask people to go back to it a lot of times they're gonna [TS]

01:25:14   end up pulling up the the settings menu and we don't want them to do that so [TS]

01:25:19   it's disabled and so there is no way to do that which is great because I'm [TS]

01:25:22   always afraid now whenever I'm touching something at the bottom of the screen [TS]

01:25:25   that I'm going to pull up that many oh yeah I know exactly what you mean I [TS]

01:25:31   think it's tricky to win the keyboard is visible and it feels I could be wrong it [TS]

01:25:38   could just be that I've gotten better at it but I'm running the Iowa 7.1 betas on [TS]

01:25:42   my phone and it feels as though they've in the last batter to they've gotten [TS]

01:25:48   better at [TS]

01:25:50   system wide when you when you want to bring up to call the control center [TS]

01:25:56   you're talking about it [TS]

01:25:58   previously when the keyboard was up every time I tried it I get a space I [TS]

01:26:03   just hit the key and they've gotten something they figured out some way of [TS]

01:26:08   doing it now wernicke boards visible you can bring that up too tricky thing and I [TS]

01:26:12   agree that yeah I know exactly where talk about papers like you more or less [TS]

01:26:16   pushed the whole regular interface down regular interface training you were [TS]

01:26:20   browsing through the content in your feed you push that down to get a sort of [TS]

01:26:28   interface and it's like a transparent thing with your Facebook search it has [TS]

01:26:35   your profile as create a poster is at its sections so another thing that they [TS]

01:26:41   did that I think and it speaks to the thought that went into it it's like the [TS]

01:26:46   Einstein quote everything should be as simple as possible but not more so than [TS]

01:26:52   a decade I've looked it up over the years and maybe that's you know there's [TS]

01:26:56   a lot of could be one of those things are in an even say it but that's the way [TS]

01:26:59   I know that the adage that you can you know what does it mean as simple as [TS]

01:27:06   possible but not more so well it's a little cute but it it means don't take [TS]

01:27:10   an idea too far and as an example it's ok so they've gotten rid of a lot of [TS]

01:27:15   buttons in the navigation that you don't go back you just push it down and it [TS]

01:27:20   closes but they don't have any kind of we're not gonna have any buttons at all [TS]

01:27:25   and we're going to figure out a way to do this with no buns where it makes [TS]

01:27:28   sense to just have a button they have a bun like that like when you write a post [TS]

01:27:32   you just start typing and then there's a button that says post and it's you know [TS]

01:27:36   super obvious there's no cutesy way of somehow you know posting without [TS]

01:27:42   actually having a post but yeah yeah I think that's right they have they have [TS]

01:27:48   the minimal amount of buttons you would need to do what you want to do [TS]

01:27:53   yeah they have a super cool thing and when you go into the settings that [TS]

01:28:00   you know and it uses of once you're in the settings for Facebook paper is a [TS]

01:28:05   very standard iOS metaphor where there's a list and you tap an item in it you [TS]

01:28:10   know those left to right and navigation stack you know goes the same way that I [TS]

01:28:15   wait you're familiar with and I think it's exactly right words they're trying [TS]

01:28:20   to get real clever and do something original there they do it but they do a [TS]

01:28:22   really cool thing with the animation in the at the top of the screen where there [TS]

01:28:28   is actually a back button when you're in the settings but if you swipe it it's [TS]

01:28:32   like the back button thing unlike Iowa seven standard navigation it doesn't [TS]

01:28:36   just paid from one to another [TS]

01:28:38   it like shoots lozeau rubberband pushed it yeah really really and honestly it's [TS]

01:28:45   better than I wish that that was Iowa seven standard yet everything sort of [TS]

01:28:50   cascades in yeah yeah exactly it's like a cascade animation like almost like a [TS]

01:28:57   wave I don't know how you call it but it's it's making a board here but it's [TS]

01:29:04   very physically to succeed physical physical I guess it's just physical but [TS]

01:29:10   it's it's like physics as theirs and I again that's a little thing and it is [TS]

01:29:16   not that is not a standard animation from iOS that is something that they [TS]

01:29:21   worked on themselves [TS]

01:29:23   there's an awful lot of so did you get a sense from him did he talk at all are [TS]

01:29:27   they going to open source any of the stuff for other sort of iOS developers [TS]

01:29:32   to use you know I didn't ask I don't know I don't think so that would be [TS]

01:29:37   great but yeah I don't think so although they did you know they have the tools [TS]

01:29:41   the the metal layer on top of course compositor that they're using [TS]

01:29:46   composer it's right or origami I forget if its courts compositor composer [TS]

01:29:52   whichever one it is I always get strong so it's whatever composer composer [TS]

01:29:56   I think the telling thing about that that's interesting [TS]

01:29:56   I think the telling thing about that that's interesting [TS]

01:30:00   as it does you know someone who works in and try to think about design and stuff [TS]

01:30:04   is that it matters has been using Quartz Composer for a long time for his mark [TS]

01:30:12   ups and stuff and and I spoke about this before but like he showed me work with [TS]

01:30:17   crisp up press for it came out and he was showing me the development version [TS]

01:30:23   of it where they they had like in the beta versions are the in house versions [TS]

01:30:28   there was an extra layer of settings where there were sliders for all the [TS]

01:30:34   variables in the physics engine and so instead of like a programmer typing into [TS]

01:30:45   Xcode that gravity for bringing down a picture to close it is at point seven [TS]

01:30:54   eight and then you compile and build and install based on your phone you play [TS]

01:30:58   around with it and and Mike would say you know what [TS]

01:31:01   try like pointed five and then compile it and build it he had sliders for all [TS]

01:31:07   of those things and he could sit there and you know drag these little sliders [TS]

01:31:12   and adjust things and make you know make pictures really and you know i i got to [TS]

01:31:17   play with it when the with those settings enable make things like photos [TS]

01:31:21   feel heavier or lighter and it was very very you know it was very tactile where [TS]

01:31:27   it really did feel like well thats heavier well thats lighter and I think [TS]

01:31:33   the idea is that you can't really design with this modern sense of Physics driven [TS]

01:31:39   interaction [TS]

01:31:40   without actually having design tools that are not just animated but you know [TS]

01:31:47   that that you can tweak all sorts of variables and I think that they're going [TS]

01:31:51   with origami when you're not you cannot you can't create things like this in [TS]

01:31:55   Photoshop and just have here's the one here's the start frame here's the end [TS]

01:32:00   frame and in between it and you know yeah and it's it's cuz I like you you're [TS]

01:32:06   forcing your brain disorder shift between two different processes right [TS]

01:32:11   Blake you're going from a very sort of numbers driven analytical process by [TS]

01:32:18   typing in like pointed 7 like you're doing math vs designing you know I think [TS]

01:32:24   its equivalent of sculpture where you're working you know it's like having [TS]

01:32:28   claimed your hands and being able to hold it with your hands as opposed to [TS]

01:32:33   defining you know mathematically the shape of this culture what do you think [TS]

01:32:40   about the the photo element where your tilting too you know sort of look at the [TS]

01:32:46   panoramic mode they call it I think I don't know if this is public or 90 [TS]

01:32:49   internally they call it can turns the can turn the fact that's good I think [TS]

01:32:56   it's brilliant I think it is really really [TS]

01:33:01   I think it's it works it is so super effective and I think you know it's [TS]

01:33:07   always say like you you know first is the original the second is a rip off and [TS]

01:33:13   the third it's a standard so somebody's gonna rip it off and then everybody's [TS]

01:33:18   gonna say hey they ripped off the counters effect from facebook paper and [TS]

01:33:21   then two or three other apps gonna come out that use it and it's everybody's you [TS]

01:33:26   know we should always remember that they did at first but it's i think it's gonna [TS]

01:33:29   become a standard so the ideas if you haven't if your other you listen you [TS]

01:33:33   haven't seen paper used it to open a photo they open it so that it always [TS]

01:33:39   fills the screen and so if it's like a plan and it's even most knows what you [TS]

01:33:44   think of a panoramic photo if you take a panoramic photos with your iPhone which [TS]

01:33:48   way wider than it is talk that opens at full height on your phone and then to [TS]

01:33:53   see the rest of it you just hold your phone in front of you and you can either [TS]

01:33:57   twist it or you can actually like rotate your body and photos [TS]

01:34:05   panda long as you move its Brian I think it works so well and it's just like it [TS]

01:34:12   basically turns the phone screen is a Windows sort of into a picture yes yes [TS]

01:34:20   and it is you know so we you know we sit at our desks and we have things like 27 [TS]

01:34:29   inch iMac sir [TS]

01:34:31   21 inch iMacs or cinema displays or even on a Macbook you know who we have retina [TS]

01:34:39   displays on MacBook Pros now with incredible pixel counts and compared to [TS]

01:34:43   a phone a big-screen I think this can turn things for how do you view [TS]

01:34:48   something that you really do want big like a photo how do you view it on a [TS]

01:34:53   little four-inch screen I think it's it's the best solution anybody's come up [TS]

01:34:57   with it [TS]

01:34:59   here's one thing and so the name they they said that they started with the Ken [TS]

01:35:05   Burns effect where they would open the photo at that size and then it is [TS]

01:35:09   automatically move yeah and they said the problem was that they realized was a [TS]

01:35:17   lot of times you know the most interesting part of the photo maybe it [TS]

01:35:20   was at the beginning it's at the left edge and then it already runs past like [TS]

01:35:23   if you want to go back and you have to wait for the animation or you have to [TS]

01:35:28   wipe it right and then the main problem so this is this is what shows to me [TS]

01:35:34   which is which i think is pretty genius which is that normally so even right now [TS]

01:35:38   if you open up a panoramic picture if you if you open it on your phone [TS]

01:35:43   sort of in landscape mode or horizontal mode it will it will be so small and so [TS]

01:35:50   you'll want to do man right but to see them the rest of the photo you have to [TS]

01:35:54   take your thumb and like sort of push and so that's like putting your thumb in [TS]

01:35:57   between which are trying to look at where is this totally removes it cause [TS]

01:36:01   you never have to use your thumb well exactly so you're not covering the photo [TS]

01:36:06   with your fat ugly and it just gets back to what I said before they've already [TS]

01:36:11   assigned swiping left and right to going to the next [TS]

01:36:15   yes that's right to navigation and it does that in summing right now are [TS]

01:36:19   trying to do you know to get to the other party so just because that has [TS]

01:36:23   previously been the norm right now they're just swiping to you know the [TS]

01:36:26   next story in being like right different and if it's a to me it's just a genius [TS]

01:36:32   and it's you know [TS]

01:36:34   it's so easy to overlook how much thought went into that you know and [TS]

01:36:37   again it's it would be the wrong solution but it you know the things that [TS]

01:36:43   would be easier to think of you know and that it's simple little mind like mine [TS]

01:36:46   would think would be well put two fingers on the screen and swipe left [TS]

01:36:49   right to pan the photo and one finger is still just Godin extra forward but [TS]

01:36:54   people don't think like that two fingers on screen to go to do it is terrible [TS]

01:36:59   you know this you know using why don't we use the accelerometer and gyroscope [TS]

01:37:04   it's really great idea I really can then they have you know whether their little [TS]

01:37:12   things like the autoplay of the videos like normal people hate that and I'm one [TS]

01:37:15   of those people who hate that but it's like win when you are in sort of full [TS]

01:37:20   mode so it doesn't auto play them when you're in for the browsing mode where [TS]

01:37:24   you can you know the stories are at the bottom of the screen in your sleeping [TS]

01:37:27   through them but once you bring it up to full screen it does auto play it because [TS]

01:37:31   it's like that's the content and you want to see it and you're just removing [TS]

01:37:34   sort of a barrier to entry to see that yet [TS]

01:37:37   yeah exactly really really thoughtful stuff and you know I think [TS]

01:37:45   you know rightly or wrongly a lot of the discussion has been more about it as [TS]

01:37:49   Hayes as an alternative way to look at Facebook but I think that you know [TS]

01:37:52   interface wise it is fascinating it is you know you can teach a whole course of [TS]

01:37:57   interface design based on the novel tees that they've come up within the app so I [TS]

01:38:03   guess I guess the biggest complaints I would have as a as someone who does [TS]

01:38:07   occasionally use Facebook I mean I'm not I certainly don't use it as much as much [TS]

01:38:11   of the world does but the difference between the regular sort of standard [TS]

01:38:17   Facebook app and even the website and this is that for may not even be true [TS]

01:38:23   but there's something about it to me that makes it feel like there is much [TS]

01:38:26   less content so it's much more shallow and maybe that's on purpose maybe it's [TS]

01:38:31   sort of making Facebook less overwhelming because maybe it is too [TS]

01:38:34   overwhelming now because everyone has sort of a thousand friends on it even [TS]

01:38:37   though you're probably not really friends with thousand people and so [TS]

01:38:41   maybe they're doing some smart things and maybe I just haven't played around [TS]

01:38:44   with it enough to know like that they're serving up really what is the best of of [TS]

01:38:48   the content that I should see but I do get the sense that there's just like [TS]

01:38:52   much less content and maybe it's because the cards are sort of at the bottom and [TS]

01:38:58   they're they're sort of you know you can get you get basically to a little bit [TS]

01:39:01   more into one sort of screen and so it takes quite a bit of swiping to get [TS]

01:39:06   through to what you used to be able to get through in less sweeping up and down [TS]

01:39:12   yeah I don't think it's not a good interface more or less it's probably not [TS]

01:39:16   a good interface for going through a ton of stuff yeah right because you have to [TS]

01:39:21   go left right and their minimum size is sort of a thumb now so [TS]

01:39:25   you can't just scroll through tightest off its not I guess it's you know I [TS]

01:39:31   don't know I i think thats I don't think it's ever going to replace the regular [TS]

01:39:35   Facebook interface I don't think it could but I think it's an interesting [TS]

01:39:38   alternative for some people and maybe so that some people people who are turned [TS]

01:39:43   off by the existing regular Facebook interface and what it promotes in terms [TS]

01:39:50   of you know behavior and how many people you friend etc it's a way for more [TS]

01:39:57   people to want to use Facebook I think I'm probably but I don't think I really [TS]

01:40:03   do and it's almost like I just don't want to it's like i don't think it's [TS]

01:40:07   stupid to me to just say I want to stick to this you know it's too arbitrary for [TS]

01:40:13   me to say you know what I want I am I going to sign up for just because I want [TS]

01:40:16   to be able to always say I never signed up for Facebook but I think my idea is [TS]

01:40:21   sign up i dont wanna you are still on his facebook anywhere else [TS]

01:40:25   only deal might the only way I'll use Facebook is through paper I'm not I [TS]

01:40:28   don't ever I can't have actually tried you can't create an account using paper [TS]

01:40:33   so I would have to go but then after I do that I'm never going to never going [TS]

01:40:41   to use anywhere else and said well it will you start where you start coughing [TS]

01:40:44   in with Facebook them will use that aspect of it too I imagine that must be [TS]

01:40:47   a pain for you know because I don't know that there's anything I've ever wanted [TS]

01:40:51   to use that only offers Facebook there are I feel like that's less of an issue [TS]

01:40:56   now like a year ago or two years ago that was an issue there would be like i [TS]

01:41:00   remember i was you know sort of looking at her or sort of testing out many [TS]

01:41:05   different apps that would have facebook only and that was the number one [TS]

01:41:08   complaint of course yeah you know at least email that doesn't seem to be an [TS]

01:41:12   issue anymore we actually did a lot i mean it's it's not really wasn't [TS]

01:41:17   scientific but at four Vesper and for the eventual sinking thing that we're [TS]

01:41:24   working on [TS]

01:41:25   we thought about what should we have our own login system or should we use [TS]

01:41:28   Twitter should we use Facebook as we do both and there's a lot of it solves a [TS]

01:41:33   lot of problems using existing identity like that but we did is it is asked like [TS]

01:41:39   real people are wives and friends and people who want to developers and very [TS]

01:41:45   very quickly got a lot of you know came very very clear that normal people don't [TS]

01:41:51   like using that and it's because they don't trust that whatever out there [TS]

01:41:55   often is gonna post to their to their board or to their Twitter and they just [TS]

01:42:00   don't like it and they don't want and they don't want Facebook or Twitter [TS]

01:42:03   knowing what other apps that use they just they just don't you know normal [TS]

01:42:07   people not like nerds not privacy experts just normal people have a sense [TS]

01:42:14   just a common sense like aversion to letting these big companies know [TS]

01:42:21   everything they do and they don't like it they really don't and that they also [TS]

01:42:25   know intuitively that if your ideas just your email address that nobody knows you [TS]

01:42:30   know you know that right the email provider isn't right care about right [TS]

01:42:35   that they're not seeing can't that mean they can't even really it's just the way [TS]

01:42:40   that they can get access to your email address isn't really a system it's just [TS]

01:42:44   a unique strengths just by the way that you know domain names work that there's [TS]

01:42:49   one user name at domain that can exist and it's just a unique identifier not a [TS]

01:42:54   unique identity and you know and it's CNN that gets down to do do you know do [TS]

01:43:02   it as an option and then it's you know it's a question of how do you make [TS]

01:43:05   people choose but I i dont know and I and it seems to me the trend I've been [TS]

01:43:10   looking at it thinking about it for a best-before wide seems to me like more [TS]

01:43:15   services going forward are only offering things like Facebook and Twitter off as [TS]

01:43:20   an option not as the right way [TS]

01:43:23   well yeah I guess the obvious upside is one button and you're done right rather [TS]

01:43:29   than typing in facebook is the first our Facebook paper is that really the first [TS]

01:43:34   time that I've needed a Facebook account to use it and it's because it actually [TS]

01:43:37   you know very specifically I mean to the third sponsor there's another angle to [TS]

01:43:45   Facebook paper we can talk about which is the shortest sections the content [TS]

01:43:49   sections but our third sponsor is our good friends at fracture fracture is the [TS]

01:43:58   photo printing service they print your photo directly onto a piece of glass you [TS]

01:44:06   have to see it to believe it but it really is a very different visual effect [TS]

01:44:10   that piece of paper behind glass and frame two piece of glass with the paper [TS]

01:44:15   printed on it it's almost like if you're old enough to remember when people used [TS]

01:44:18   to shoot slides it's like having a piece of glass that the slide of your photo [TS]

01:44:23   and there's a certain vibrancy to it and it's also it's a lot like with with the [TS]

01:44:30   iPhone and stuff where it's just closer to the surface of the glass and it's [TS]

01:44:33   just a great effect they come in all sorts of sizes from very small to very [TS]

01:44:39   big and they ship it in these ingenious containers where it's if you want to [TS]

01:44:45   hang on a wall you can hang on the wall [TS]

01:44:47   you want to put it on your desk you can put it on your desk it's like a frame [TS]

01:44:50   and a desk stan on one really have to see it to believe it makes a great gift [TS]

01:44:58   for the Wii my wife and I made a bunch of these four people for Christmas [TS]

01:45:04   in the family and its huge hit also raises soon as people see it they can [TS]

01:45:09   see there's something different about it and they're like how did you do this [TS]

01:45:12   where did you get this [TS]

01:45:13   people love him and I have coupon code you get 10% off any order that coupon [TS]

01:45:23   code is the talk show love that because it's to meet the ones used at the end [TS]

01:45:29   there they're the ones who actually listen to the show where to go to find [TS]

01:45:33   out more [TS]

01:45:34   their website is fracture mean dot com and I believe you can also just go to [TS]

01:45:40   fracture done typing in right now you can go to fracture . me or fracture [TS]

01:45:48   me.com learn more [TS]

01:45:51   they have a great video you get to see it and it kind of shows off just how [TS]

01:45:55   different it is see the sizes and prices are prices and get started and remember [TS]

01:46:00   that code the talk show and you'll save 10% so go check them out to great [TS]

01:46:05   service so here's the other thing with Facebook paper its us-only not just [TS]

01:46:10   iphoneonly jus only and and the reason for that is because of the the content [TS]

01:46:15   sections they have where it's not just your regular Facebook feed [TS]

01:46:19   they have sections for things like tack and sports and news I think cities and [TS]

01:46:28   they're not scraping those its not just like they're scraping RSS feeds and [TS]

01:46:35   showing whatever they want they've got partnerships with content providers and [TS]

01:46:40   I more or less I think that's why it's us-only for now because [TS]

01:46:44   it's like you know you go there and I know a lot of people have compared [TS]

01:46:50   Facebook paper to Flipboard but I don't you think that their dad direct [TS]

01:46:54   competitor I think it's because some of the animations are a little similar that [TS]

01:46:58   people think that yeah and I mean that's sort of what I was getting at the very [TS]

01:47:03   beginning where it almost feels like this this is the part to me that feels [TS]

01:47:08   sort of like a response to Twitter it's because twitter is a place you go to get [TS]

01:47:11   news right now writes like where a lot of people actually find links for the [TS]

01:47:16   first time find links about News breakingNews happening in facebook now [TS]

01:47:19   with this with these sections are as you said sort of making partnerships with [TS]

01:47:24   the actual news organizations to make this actual newsreader well I didn't [TS]

01:47:29   think about that as a response to Twitter but maybe you're right though [TS]

01:47:32   that it kind of is in terms of that you go to this app for news but that you're [TS]

01:47:36   not expecting it to come from your follower your friends [TS]

01:47:42   it's about this sort of yeah cultivation that's a that's a good point because [TS]

01:47:49   it's more along the lines of like Twitter if you only followed the actual [TS]

01:47:53   news sources right rather than rather than your friends he felt the account of [TS]

01:47:57   New York Times and Washington Post and and whoever else if you use Twitter that [TS]

01:48:01   way which some people do I think use or at least have you know our users of [TS]

01:48:05   course have separate sort of Twitter screens set up with just sorta breaking [TS]

01:48:10   news alerts on on different items [TS]

01:48:12   yeah [TS]

01:48:14   I don't know you know and I do I do something where I just don't know [TS]

01:48:18   whether I'm not a Facebook user I don't know how much sense that makes to [TS]

01:48:22   integrate these two things you know it's i cant i feel like i cant judges yea or [TS]

01:48:28   nay [TS]

01:48:29   what do you think here you you say you're using on your phone are you using [TS]

01:48:33   the you know it's it's interesting I am using it and I as i said i have have [TS]

01:48:40   replaced its I've replaced the Facebook out at the regular appt with with paper [TS]

01:48:45   and its greats as for other reasons we just have talked about an elaborated on [TS]

01:48:51   but I'm not really using the the certain news sections I don't know why it does [TS]

01:48:57   feel a little bit foreign to me because I I am sort of thinking about this is a [TS]

01:49:01   facebook replacement even though I know that's not you know sort of the only [TS]

01:49:05   mentality you're supposed to be going into this thinking about and you are [TS]

01:49:07   supposed to be sort of focused on these different sections were you can read [TS]

01:49:11   about news but I don't know I just don't use it that way and I'm never compelled [TS]

01:49:16   to sort of open up paper to be able to get to the latest Wall Street Journal [TS]

01:49:21   story and I don't know if that's because I'm heavy Twitter user and I still like [TS]

01:49:26   I will have already seen it on Twitter I guess maybe that's what it comes down to [TS]

01:49:30   the fact that I use Twitter [TS]

01:49:32   you know [TS]

01:49:33   must be 10 to 20 x more times a day that i use facebook and so I'm already [TS]

01:49:39   getting my news from from Twitter and so I am just not in the raid sort of mode [TS]

01:49:46   to go into this paper apps assertive read about things right now I don't know [TS]

01:49:50   maybe I'm different maybe you know 1.2 billion people who use Facebook so you [TS]

01:49:56   know it might be an interesting way to just wrap up the show and is is sort of [TS]

01:50:01   thought about before but now you've got me thinking about Twitter vs Facebook [TS]

01:50:06   overall and and in it you know they're not the same thing but there clearly are [TS]

01:50:12   rivals and Facebook clearly has way more people and yes it's like 11 points to [TS]

01:50:22   something billion to about two hundred and some millions and the somebody [TS]

01:50:26   somebody pointed out the other day they planted I saw it on Twitter that [TS]

01:50:30   Facebook like last quarter grew by a third even though there are bigger group [TS]

01:50:35   by a faster percentage than Twitter I saw that I think there was Dustin Curtis [TS]

01:50:39   Yeah Yeah right [TS]

01:50:42   lie you know you can't watch TV without seeing hashtags on the screen right and [TS]

01:50:52   the hashtags are clearly I mean you can use of Instagram but when people do but [TS]

01:50:59   clearly it's about tweets yes and you know there is no Facebook equivalent to [TS]

01:51:05   that that you know just watching anything stupid show or sports or the [TS]

01:51:10   Super Bowl or anything [TS]

01:51:12   there's hashtags on-screen commercials have hash tags right and it's all a [TS]

01:51:16   Twitter and so Facebook has tried to do this you know they've they've they've [TS]

01:51:21   integrated hashtags as a feature now you know sort of copying the notion it still [TS]

01:51:26   doesn't seem like it's taken off at all certainly not in the fields of anyone [TS]

01:51:29   that I'm friends with organic follow on Facebook and I think that's what we're [TS]

01:51:35   sort of we were talking about earlier where Facebook is sort of talking to [TS]

01:51:38   celebrities and influencers about using facebook during the Super Bowl [TS]

01:51:42   and it's just I don't know it's meets it seems very unnatural it's it's I don't [TS]

01:51:46   think it's going to be used that way [TS]

01:51:48   Facebook is what it is and and Twitter is what it is and it's it's especially [TS]

01:51:51   hard to change something that 1.2 billion people are already using for a [TS]

01:51:56   reason and that reason is not to talk about the Super Bowl or at least not to [TS]

01:52:01   sort of talked about in real time with the same sort of speed that people do on [TS]

01:52:07   Twitter I don't know I'm not so sure that that's like a great idea for them [TS]

01:52:11   to try to squeeze these things into to this end for me what this what this [TS]

01:52:16   boils down to is both of these companies are not public companies Twitter of [TS]

01:52:19   course just went public in a few months ago and so what this all boils down to [TS]

01:52:27   especially with regard to television is trying to get advertisers on board and [TS]

01:52:31   trying to monetize this and so you can make the argument that while I think [TS]

01:52:35   through Twitter had the first earnings and they beat the earnings rest of [TS]

01:52:39   estimates but their user numbers were sort of the cause for concern there but [TS]

01:52:44   that's sort of also points to the fact that I think Twitter actually has and [TS]

01:52:48   you can make a case will be easier to monetize is because it's sort of this [TS]

01:52:54   site guys that people use during all of these major events like whether it's the [TS]

01:52:59   Super Bowl whether it's now the Olympics and there's like a very direct you know [TS]

01:53:03   sort of advertising nut to crack I don't think they have cracked it yet but I [TS]

01:53:08   think that there is a way to do that much so much more so than with Facebook [TS]

01:53:12   even though Facebook has so many more users and I had drained strained analogy [TS]

01:53:17   and it's not gonna whole lot of water but it's a little bit like iOS to [TS]

01:53:20   Android where Android has more people but iOS is easier to monetize you know [TS]

01:53:26   that it's that yeah yeah yeah I think that it's that works and you know and [TS]

01:53:31   the other thing I see on TV I see sports well I you know what news too I don't [TS]

01:53:35   watch [TS]

01:53:36   I was very little TV news but I do watch sports and you know it [TS]

01:53:42   ubiquitous almost that you know the commentators they'll they'll put their [TS]

01:53:46   twitter names up right now I see it when I actually sports sports is like the [TS]

01:53:51   greatest example of that it's all over town sports center there are every [TS]

01:53:54   single person has their Twitter handle right there is no Facebook equivalent of [TS]

01:53:58   the right and you know when I do I should you know what I was trying to [TS]

01:54:01   think about how do I know this about TV news I know how I know what I know cuz i [TS]

01:54:05   watch The Daily Show and The Daily Show chose me the clips I need to see of we [TS]

01:54:09   know Fox and CNN and MSNBC and they do it too when a show you the clips of you [TS]

01:54:15   know whatever they're making fun of on The Daily Show on on these news channels [TS]

01:54:18   everybody gets introduced with their name and then underneath it at you know [TS]

01:54:23   whatever their Twitter handle is it if I were to Twitter if I'm dich Kuss Kustom [TS]

01:54:31   oh I I'm very happy about that because they are getting free advertising but [TS]

01:54:37   it's not just it's not just advertising know it it it's like it's a way of [TS]

01:54:44   entering the culture culture mindshare right its cultural mindshare you know [TS]

01:54:51   it's it's like being coca-cola you know that it's just huge that you know and [TS]

01:54:59   that people know this you know that you go there and it just you go on TV and [TS]

01:55:03   it'll say MCN at side and you know what that means right you know you go on and [TS]

01:55:08   it just says at Paris lemon under your name on TV and people know that you know [TS]

01:55:13   if they wanna see you on Twitter though you know just search for that name on [TS]

01:55:16   Twitter it's it's really and that's that's interesting when you when you [TS]

01:55:21   think about it compared to Facebook where Facebook you know for a long time [TS]

01:55:24   their strength was this real names right like everyone was going to be their [TS]

01:55:29   actual selves on this service [TS]

01:55:31   the problem was like in the beginning [TS]

01:55:34   know if you even knows it's not being a Facebook user but they used to not even [TS]

01:55:38   have like an actual like / username no I didn't know that I didn't know that [TS]

01:55:43   it was a string of numbers like I like 16 numbers and sort of crazy now they [TS]

01:55:49   have of course manatee URLs but it's still it's still that that hasn't [TS]

01:55:54   translated though like I actually have / Paris lemon on Facebook and you can get [TS]

01:55:58   to me that way but like what would I put on it with someone put on television [TS]

01:56:02   screen if like you were doing that man is it just / could you do that no one [TS]

01:56:07   would know what that is right it it is kind of a lack of a better word gross to [TS]

01:56:15   me like as somebody who's been a long time Mac user and always objected to [TS]

01:56:19   filename extensions in general not just three-letter ones but just the whole [TS]

01:56:22   idea because I like we had a more elegant system in the eighties and [TS]

01:56:27   nineties on the Mac we didn't need file extensions period the name of the file [TS]

01:56:31   was just a name with upper and lower case letters and spaces just put a space [TS]

01:56:36   in the name you know like things in the real world and all the other computer [TS]

01:56:41   systems in a UNIX of course of course a loud spaces but you know worst idea in [TS]

01:56:47   the world like backslash escape them you know the command line and see me the you [TS]

01:56:54   know using a punctuation character like that and see me with hashtags like to me [TS]

01:56:58   has takes our gross design wise but I do have to admit as they've gone on to [TS]

01:57:05   become part of the culture and there's no other way to do it like to me like [TS]

01:57:11   tags [TS]

01:57:12   you know I can tax investment there's no advantage using hashtags invest because [TS]

01:57:17   it's not shared not public so tags investor are just like old school Mac [TS]

01:57:21   filings you just type whatever you want upper and lower case with spaces and its [TS]

01:57:25   English and it looks nice and it's readable [TS]

01:57:27   but I totally understand how on a social network that the hashtag thing is genius [TS]

01:57:33   because you can put it on screen and people know what it means and there's no [TS]

01:57:39   explanation and doesn't just bang whatever and there it is right because [TS]

01:57:45   you could argue that like in you know in our ever increasing capabilities [TS]

01:57:51   computationally like you should be able to say interest status message in it [TS]

01:57:57   sees like the Olympics and it should be able to know that the Olympics you're [TS]

01:58:01   talking about is the same that you know a million other people are talking about [TS]

01:58:05   and so there should be no sort of the away [TS]

01:58:07   ABC radically to sort of link those together but how would you convey that [TS]

01:58:11   until there would be no way and you can you know and it shows up and all other [TS]

01:58:14   put you know billboards and stuff like that just hash tag whatever or user [TS]

01:58:18   names you know it's it's really you know effectively it's been genius and you [TS]

01:58:23   know and it's funny to that neither of those things came from Twitter that is [TS]

01:58:29   right that users and Chris Messina you know definitely I mean we do we know [TS]

01:58:35   that he more or less invented the hashtag not as a Twitter employee just [TS]

01:58:38   as Twitter user it's just like total company building culture changing idea [TS]

01:58:49   they just like said hey I think what what if we just used as tags shines and [TS]

01:58:55   tag names after the hashtag to group tweets and the odd thing i think is a [TS]

01:59:01   little bit murkier in terms of last time I saw anybody try to figure out who [TS]

01:59:05   started doing it but an end [TS]

01:59:07   you know there was some will end it has ties to email yeah and and Flickr people [TS]

01:59:12   were doing it on Flickr where they were in the comments section you know it was [TS]

01:59:16   it was a thing where if there's like 14 comment on a photo and you wanted reply [TS]

01:59:23   to the seventh commenter you type at their username and then space [TS]

01:59:28   make meaning you were directing it at them to remember when the there was wind [TS]

01:59:33   sort of the location services like Foursquare and go on stuff started [TS]

01:59:36   gaining popularity was like it's super head that like the the at symbol has [TS]

01:59:41   already been sort of taken by using it to direct message at someone rather than [TS]

01:59:45   it being an actual location right you know would arguably make more sense yeah [TS]

01:59:49   it definitely will well and then the email that sense that's what it meant it [TS]

01:59:53   was you know if you were named John at daring fireball dotnet its mean you know [TS]

02:00:00   means I John is me at this server [TS]

02:00:04   you know it kinda makes in the Twitter sense it doesn't accept when you think [TS]

02:00:10   about the fact that the reply is supposed to be at right there's like I [TS]

02:00:16   guess semantically the at is different than the username the ad is saying this [TS]

02:00:20   is at this person Gruber is really my twitter handle but it's just visually [TS]

02:00:28   it's just become you know at grouper is now my twitter handle and it's a funny [TS]

02:00:33   way to to kind of take the use of these characters that are on everybody's [TS]

02:00:39   keyboard that we're kind of underused at was really mean don't do anyway I ever [TS]

02:00:44   saw anything used the at symbol in my entire life before email was like a [TS]

02:00:49   grocery store where they would say like to at one dollar or something like that [TS]

02:00:54   just because it's shorter right it was all you know is almost like why in the [TS]

02:01:02   world do we have these that bad especially on her keyboard how to the [TS]

02:01:05   world that become a standard thing on everybody's keyboard but then gmail made [TS]

02:01:09   great use of it and then you know in this user name scenario it's become [TS]

02:01:14   great and then numbers I guess everybody uses a flight number one number two [TS]

02:01:18   but you know it's it's somehow works and it's a thing it looks geeky but [TS]

02:01:27   obviously if you just go in like surf hashtags on Twitter and Instagram I mean [TS]

02:01:31   millions of people use them normal people and so another one is like em [TS]

02:01:36   percent to people use like it does anyone use that often is certainly in [TS]

02:01:40   writing but like you ever see that being used you know again sort of emails that [TS]

02:01:45   you sender or receiver people still using it as a shorthand for you know for [TS]

02:01:51   and there's a very few I it's a pet peeve of mine and so every once in [TS]

02:01:56   awhile like for example you know I don't have any co-writers during fireball but [TS]

02:02:03   one is sponsored by weekly sponsorships come in every once in awhile whoever [TS]

02:02:08   wrote the sponsored thing will use am percent instead of ants and I just [TS]

02:02:11   change in plans but it's so it's not it's not rare but it's uncommon it's a [TS]

02:02:18   little unusual I don't know if there could be one that gets it gets taken [TS]

02:02:23   yeah I think it's there I think it's totally right to be taken [TS]

02:02:27   yeah what percentage signed dollar sign that everybody knows with them and [TS]

02:02:33   they're kind of you know I guess the [TS]

02:02:35   the carrot carrot is maybe the only other one that you could use but the [TS]

02:02:41   tilde and the back deck you know which is probably the least use key on [TS]

02:02:47   anybody's keyboard but there are two they're too small you can't they're not [TS]

02:02:51   visually discernible like other advantages of the at sign in the pound [TS]

02:02:55   sign or hash whatever you want to call that thing is that they're so visually [TS]

02:03:01   distinctive yes there they stand out there the full height and they're very [TS]

02:03:08   very visually distinctive ampersand has that going for it [TS]

02:03:13   aryan people people of course have use most notably I guess StockTwits is the [TS]

02:03:19   one to use the money sign say that you're talking about a stock when you do [TS]

02:03:23   it and I think that works its but yeah that's actually I forgot about that but [TS]

02:03:26   that does work right because because in the other it doesn't collide with the [TS]

02:03:30   other sense because there is no number right if ya like dollar sign followed by [TS]

02:03:36   letters never had meaning before yes it actually is a good use [TS]

02:03:41   that's another one that's a good counter example I thought about the other day [TS]

02:03:45   actually was thinking about this with the hash symbol whether if I were [TS]

02:03:51   inventing marked down today whether I would still use that it it's a way to [TS]

02:03:57   indicate I don't think it collides because there's a space after it and I [TS]

02:04:04   don't think that you know I think I guess I would cause I couldn't think of [TS]

02:04:08   another character that I would use but you know hashtags in the system invented [TS]

02:04:13   Martin and nobody's ever written me to complain about that so I'm guessing that [TS]

02:04:17   it isn'ta problem why why did you how come why not use something like the at [TS]

02:04:25   symbol for like a link or something like that why do it the way that it's done [TS]

02:04:28   cuz its cuz I wanted it to be is visually non distracting as possible so [TS]

02:04:36   that's why it's square brackets [TS]

02:04:47   sounds like a show yeah alright MGC where thank you very much free time of [TS]

02:04:55   course and people can catch you at Paris lemon stakes it has taken but you do [TS]

02:05:04   have a username and Paris Paris 11.com I'll talk to some [TS]