0:00:00great I'm ruined why are you running
0:00:02like I got upgraded to business class
0:00:04haha ah well well well you know what I'm
0:00:13going to expect I'm gonna expect a big
0:00:15apology because you and many other
0:00:18people always give me grief about flying
0:00:22standby but I didn't try to schedule
0:00:24things to get an upgrade to business
0:00:26class i'm not saying you flew standby
0:00:28but you now have tasted the sweet sweet
0:00:32vector of business class and you're
0:00:35telling me the giroux and so now
0:00:37imagining you can understand why someone
0:00:41might make plans around even the mere
0:00:44chance of getting business class if this
0:00:46if it is statistically proven that it is
0:00:49more likely for you to receive business
0:00:52or opera or first because of flying
0:00:54standby
0:00:55oh it is the way I fly it is then i can
0:00:59understand now
0:01:00mm so I was in the airport waiting to
0:01:04board where were you where you flying
0:01:06from where you flying to from dallas to
0:01:08London
0:01:09ok that's a pretty long flight so i
0:01:10think on the way there is 10 hours on
0:01:12the way back it's like a harmless
0:01:14something em and I'm sitting in the
0:01:17airport I i like to be very early in
0:01:19airports very early like lots of time
0:01:22yeah that's the only way to be drives
0:01:23everybody that I know my life crazy but
0:01:26like for example for this flight i made
0:01:28sure i was at the airport like four
0:01:30hours before if that's reasonable i like
0:01:33that i like to just take my time but
0:01:34other people think I'm crazy
0:01:36no now it's this is the right way to do
0:01:38it my feeling is like we can wait at the
0:01:40airport or we can wait at home we might
0:01:42as well wait at the airport
0:01:43good I like that Joanna know my theory
0:01:45for this my thinking what if you catch a
0:01:49bus or train you can just get the next
0:01:52one that does not work so well with
0:01:54planes no it does not
0:01:56you cannot just get the next one what do
0:01:59that that is not a thing that happens
0:02:01I'll just wait at the gate until the
0:02:03next one pulls up know you want sir you
0:02:05will give us have a thousand dollars and
0:02:07then maybe if you're lucky you'll get
0:02:08there next week
0:02:10yeah so I was as getting ready to board
0:02:14us sitting at the gate and you know it's
0:02:16like they're like but had an
0:02:17announcement go out and they set up a
0:02:19bunch of names and they said my name
0:02:20please approach the desk for an
0:02:23important message and also gone though
0:02:25what they've done like I'm not going
0:02:27home today went out to the lady gave
0:02:30them my passport he had like a real
0:02:31stone face on she typed in a bunch of
0:02:33things she gave me tickets like you've
0:02:35been upgraded to business class
0:02:37thank you i was like i expected the
0:02:40first time this would happen to their to
0:02:41be just a little bit more fanfare you
0:02:44know like even just a smile maybe she
0:02:46just didn't care so by the I cared very
0:02:49much because i was very excited about
0:02:50all of this so business classes amazing
0:02:54i flew with british airways mhm so it i
0:02:57basically had a bed that I could make up
0:03:00for myself
0:03:01ok yeah so this is the thing like
0:03:03business class varies wildly between
0:03:06airlines and also just between the model
0:03:09of planes yeah some business classes you
0:03:12get screwed and what you really have is
0:03:14economy plus from 30 years ago
0:03:16yeah but some business classes you get a
0:03:19space seat and so it sounds like you had
0:03:22one of those this was this was an older
0:03:24plane so it wasn't super fancy but I had
0:03:27like a little hard type area there's
0:03:29like a divider between me and the two
0:03:31people that were on the other side and I
0:03:34had a regular chair that had buttons
0:03:36that could basically recline me and then
0:03:39it could go real down flat and I had
0:03:40this foot thing that could bring up and
0:03:43i was able to sleep on the plane only
0:03:48for a couple of hours because the time
0:03:49was a bit weird but I got two hours of
0:03:51good uninterruptedly sleep sleeping on
0:03:55my side as I like sleeping on a plain
0:03:58gray thing I am ruined forever
0:04:02yeah now you'll never want to fly again
0:04:04unless its business class seats so this
0:04:06is my thinking right now is I've been
0:04:08flying more and more recently in economy
0:04:12plus or premium economy it's called in
0:04:14some places I've been flying more and
0:04:16more like that because it is just far
0:04:19significant for not too much more money
0:04:21in some cases yes and especially
0:04:23for a tall guy like yourself it really
0:04:25makes a difference yeah you got the
0:04:27extra space the cabins and more empty
0:04:29people with babies for some reason don't
0:04:31seem too often by economy plus tickets
0:04:33let alone is is worth it
0:04:36you can't let metal cutlery in your food
0:04:39with like you you basically feel more
0:04:41like a civilized human and less like
0:04:44cattle
0:04:44yeah exactly so I'm luckily in a
0:04:46position where I for a lot of the trips
0:04:49I can't afford it or their business
0:04:50expenses so that you know works out for
0:04:52me but now i'm thinking more about like
0:04:54for the really long ones could I maybe
0:04:57fly business class coming home
0:04:59mmm that feels good because going there
0:05:02you're excited to go so it doesn't feel
0:05:04so bad i think it may be coming home a
0:05:06lot of the flights were like red eyes
0:05:08could I get a few hours sleep will
0:05:10improve my life significantly so for San
0:05:13Francisco I'm definitely gonna do it and
0:05:17flowing with a friend and we're
0:05:21considering doing that together and
0:05:23doing virgin and therefore going
0:05:24upper-class virginian-pilot upper-class
0:05:28they only have upper records fans as
0:05:31dick haha way to own it virgin indian
0:05:35economy is incredible
0:05:38like it feels like you're in a plane in
0:05:40that all of their extra words look
0:05:42incredible and they bring you like
0:05:44champagne when you're getting on the
0:05:46plane ice fantastic it's the way to fly
0:05:49gray and now I'm ruined forever because
0:05:52I wonder what its gonna be like past
0:05:54that come with this sounds like to me is
0:05:57you need to grow relay into a much
0:06:00bigger company so that you can always
0:06:02fly upper-class maybe i can set a goal
0:06:06for that you know I think it's served in
0:06:08emirates where you can actually get like
0:06:09a room with double bed if you seen that
0:06:12iíve seen that stuff I've seen that
0:06:13stuff the thing with emirates though
0:06:15they have these crazy rooms and they're
0:06:19like thirty thousand dollar tickets
0:06:21delegates it's ridiculous luxury but all
0:06:23I can ever think is it looks so tacky
0:06:25because they really like gold accented
0:06:28everything but I look at things like
0:06:30thirty thousand dollars even if i had a
0:06:33despair like I wouldn't want to be
0:06:34surrounded
0:06:35that much tacky gold it just looks gross
0:06:37I don't like your design aesthetic I've
0:06:39never really looked into them very much
0:06:40because emirates ten not to fly to the
0:06:43places that I'm going
0:06:45mm you know they tend to go the other
0:06:47way a lot more right yeah of course but
0:06:49yeah so you ruined forever
0:06:51you need relay to earn more money to fly
0:06:53business class that's and speaking of
0:06:56which mile rd listeners can help us fly
0:06:59business class when we go for our
0:07:01acceptance speech for our campaign
0:07:03oh right of course of course you've been
0:07:05very busy like very busy we have
0:07:07t-shirts we have gray Holly 2016
0:07:10t-shirts available we were working on a
0:07:13design this is this is a little bit of
0:07:15the back story of how this t-shirt came
0:07:18to be working on a design and I was
0:07:20showing you the designs i was gonna say
0:07:22what really happened here is you
0:07:23surprised me with a t-shirt design I was
0:07:25minding my own business and you sent me
0:07:27a design for yourself which I really
0:07:30liked them and we worked and developing
0:07:33it and then we had two colors we had a
0:07:34white and a blue and we only wanted to
0:07:37do one color because that we're going to
0:07:39be our campaign color and we we weren't
0:07:41sure what to do so you suggested to me
0:07:43why don't you put it to a Twitter vote
0:07:45and then I got really carried away
0:07:48yeah you seem to run like a bunch of
0:07:50runoffs and mm you know there's a lot of
0:07:53right public deciding for the design of
0:07:55the great early 2016 shirt and what we
0:07:58came down to was we doing a blue t-shirt
0:08:01a couple of different shades of blue and
0:08:04there is a there is a men's a woman's
0:08:07and a unisex long sleeve t-shirts and
0:08:10amend ever men's and women's short
0:08:11sleeve any unisex long sleeve which
0:08:13we're doing with teespring but we've got
0:08:16something a little bit different this
0:08:18time that we've never done before I've
0:08:19never done before
0:08:20there's a link in the show notes that
0:08:22you can click and teespring have been
0:08:24really good to us and they set up
0:08:25distribution from the US and the EU
0:08:29though so it should reduce shipping
0:08:31costs for most people outside of the US
0:08:35this is something that I don't trust me
0:08:37i feel this because i buy all the shirts
0:08:40from the US but they've hooked us up
0:08:42with this if there's like a special link
0:08:44that you'll find in our show notes and
0:08:45it does it by geo location and it works
0:08:47out with
0:08:48which one to switch campaign to send you
0:08:50to so you'll be able to buy one of our
0:08:53great t-shirts and support the campaign
0:08:56these are only available into april
0:08:58first so this is the only time you're
0:09:00gonna hear us talk about this so if you
0:09:03want one you got to go buy them because
0:09:05they will only be available until april
0:09:07first and i think it's great i think
0:09:09they do look great yeah you had to
0:09:11emojis drawing up there using emoji and
0:09:15for many gas customer g and yes if
0:09:18people want to get their hands on the
0:09:19gray early 2016 shirt if you are hearing
0:09:23the sound of my voice right now and you
0:09:25have just recently downloaded the
0:09:26episode you need to get in gear
0:09:29click the link in the show notes and
0:09:31grab the shirt before this campaign
0:09:33season is over we had a lot of people
0:09:35say why is there no gray sure and they
0:09:37expected that they would have to be a
0:09:39gracious campaigns blue you you endorse
0:09:41the blue right what I endorsed was if
0:09:44you're having something that looks like
0:09:45a presidential campaign logo it has to
0:09:48be red white and blue is like there's no
0:09:50there's no choice about that it's got to
0:09:52be red white and blue and we go
0:09:53you don't have presidential campaigns
0:09:55where someone is running a gray color
0:09:56that just doesn't happen people fooled i
0:09:59was getting carried away without your
0:10:00blessing
0:10:01well I mean you kind of were like I came
0:10:03back after some hidden message
0:10:05conversation to discover that you had
0:10:07run all of these various votes on
0:10:09Twitter like I had happens actually
0:10:11involved in some other things we will
0:10:13talk about later
0:10:14I just came back to my phone and it's
0:10:15like Oh Mike's been busy yesterday you
0:10:17did I mean like they're not they're not
0:10:18wrong
0:10:19I got I got carried away but within the
0:10:21constraints you know I just really went
0:10:24to the edges of those constraints for
0:10:26there were no constraints I told you
0:10:28instant message you know you go you go
0:10:29right ahead like.you know I i justyou
0:10:32you asked me for some feedback i made
0:10:34some suggestions I / no constraints
0:10:37given don't don't radically portray this
0:10:39in a different way from the way it
0:10:40actually unfolded you know if you're
0:10:42going to be my running mate I I trust
0:10:45you to make these kind of decisions but
0:10:48i am going to complain when I don't like
0:10:49the look of it that's what I was doing
0:10:51yeah at that feels like a president vp
0:10:55situation I think you can do whatever
0:10:57you want as long as I'm okay with it
0:10:59how our houses search for campaign
0:11:04headquarters going ok listen I know what
0:11:07you're trying to do here right now we're
0:11:09trying to do here because listeners in
0:11:13the show notes the thing that we are
0:11:15going to talk about next is my further
0:11:18adventures in finding an office finding
0:11:21an office for me I their usual thanks
0:11:27trying to hit along here because they
0:11:31were together in the shown as I thought
0:11:32you are connecting them you know
0:11:34no I was not connect oh no they are
0:11:37separated by several carriage returns
0:11:40there's no way anyone could actually
0:11:43confuse these as related topics they
0:11:45also i'm just a simple related topics
0:11:48no this is a is the next bullet point
0:11:50not connected to the previous
0:11:52bullet-point today's episode of cortex
0:11:55is brought to you by PDF pen pro from
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0:13:26what's great on El Capitan thank you so
0:13:29much to smile for their support of this
0:13:30show and really FM so actually i am not
0:13:36looking for a private office because I
0:13:39currently have an office huh
0:13:43yes i know this yeah you in it
0:13:48not right now okay i'm in my house right
0:13:50now
0:13:51ok but yet you mentioned last time on
0:13:56the show about like surely there are
0:13:57services that can try to help you find
0:14:00office space and long story short that
0:14:02is essentially what i did was i was
0:14:05using a website that specializes in
0:14:07trying to find people office space
0:14:08instead of just interrogating buildings
0:14:11or searching around and just trying to
0:14:12find things which was not working super
0:14:15great
0:14:16nah and yeah it's it's been interesting
0:14:19because you know when you are searching
0:14:23for anything you have a bunch of
0:14:25criteria and whenever you're having a
0:14:29hard time finding something you know
0:14:30like one of your criteria has to give
0:14:33and so as mentioned last time I really
0:14:36really really didn't want anything that
0:14:38was not within walking distance and that
0:14:40is already such an incredible constraint
0:14:43about like what is the exact area that I
0:14:45want an office in then you add in a
0:14:47couple of other things that I wanted and
0:14:48like I was going to be a hard thing to
0:14:50find
0:14:51so the thing that had to give was of
0:14:53course price so i do have this private
0:14:57office that is in a big building but it
0:15:01is very expensive so i have for the
0:15:05moment i have only signed a lease for
0:15:08six weeks because i need to make sure
0:15:10that this is a place that I am actually
0:15:12going to use that i'm actually going to
0:15:14work at because otherwise the fixed cost
0:15:18of this office is many multiples of the
0:15:21co-working space in which
0:15:23I currently am and so is one of the
0:15:25things like will this be worth it will
0:15:28it not I don't know I've been working
0:15:32there for let's see what today's
0:15:34thursday i just moved in four days ago
0:15:39so I've been going there and and working
0:15:41there a little bit in the mornings and
0:15:43evenings and it's been going well but i
0:15:45need to make sure that i'm i'm actually
0:15:46going to be very very efficiently use
0:15:49this space otherwise it will not be
0:15:51worth keeping but this is the progress
0:15:53so far would you like to see a picture
0:15:55Mike I should show you a picture make
0:15:58sure you remove the geotag from the
0:16:00picture so i can show up
0:16:02yeah haha mommy I brought your coffee
0:16:09I was one step ahead of you with that
0:16:11you think I'm ever going to share with
0:16:12you a geotag picture of my office
0:16:16no of course not here let me show you a
0:16:18picture of what it looked like before I
0:16:20moved in ok and I'll these will be
0:16:23appropriate for the show notes they will
0:16:25be yeah I think that's about how is that
0:16:28very exciting it is what if this is
0:16:30there a window
0:16:31you don't want people to like spot
0:16:33landmarks and then you know i can
0:16:35imagine someone with all the pictures on
0:16:36the wall was like stirring connecting
0:16:38them and stuff i specifically selected
0:16:41an office that has no windows
0:16:43I did not want the distraction of a
0:16:44window that is that ok this is a sad
0:16:51this is a very sad-looking office it up
0:16:56the word picture for the people Mike
0:17:00they're basically it looks like an
0:17:04interrogation room I think that's a
0:17:06little harsh know there are two tables
0:17:08there's a lamp
0:17:10there's no windows and a fluorescent
0:17:11light that is very interrogation room
0:17:13like it's just a square room there's two
0:17:18chairs there's two telephones there is
0:17:21some obscure artwork of a building on
0:17:24the wall you have generic corporate
0:17:26artwork it's not relate very well this
0:17:28this office
0:17:29no it is not no it's not and there is a
0:17:32cup of coffee sitting on the table and
0:17:35there's like a cabinet in the corner
0:17:36mm I guess have you done anything to
0:17:39make the office feel more homely did you
0:17:42paint the walls gray or something
0:17:44this office is set up for theoretically
0:17:48two people up to four people which I
0:17:52find out the horrifying is impossible
0:17:54that isn't impossible you could live
0:17:57here let me take me like that the place
0:18:00where I'm standing to take the photo
0:18:02there is a tiny bit of space behind me
0:18:04but what you could do and what I have
0:18:07seen other offices in this building do
0:18:08is put four desks all around the
0:18:11perimeter of the wall right don't get
0:18:13four people in there so that's nice you
0:18:15can just look directly at the warm right
0:18:18or the current setup you can look
0:18:21directly at the person who's sitting
0:18:22directly opposite you it's we discuss
0:18:26office layouts once before on the show
0:18:28and and this building that I am in its I
0:18:33don't know it's like ten stories tall
0:18:35all of the floors are nothing but open
0:18:38office spaces and there's an elevator
0:18:41that I can take up where you happen to
0:18:43be able to see into all of the floors
0:18:45and just like I go up all the floors you
0:18:46can see like these endless endless open
0:18:48offices this one floor happens to have
0:18:51this section that's carved offer
0:18:53individual offices but from my
0:18:55perspective all it is is the same thing
0:18:57but again on a smaller scale where every
0:19:00private office that I walk into actually
0:19:02has two to six people crammed in what
0:19:07seems like a terribly small space and
0:19:10like it's still fundamentally in
0:19:11openoffice as far as i can tell i'm the
0:19:13only person who has a private office in
0:19:16this whole place because I rented their
0:19:19smallest one which is for two people but
0:19:21I rented it just for me
0:19:23so there are other people that have
0:19:24these rooms but they have more than one
0:19:26person in them
0:19:27yeah yeah there's there to people or
0:19:29four people in a room this size all
0:19:31working together but so yes Mike I did
0:19:34spend quite a while making it much more
0:19:36homey
0:19:37so she would you like to see what looks
0:19:38like now yeah I just anticipating know
0:19:42liz is your computer on the desk but
0:19:44it's the only check
0:19:47oh no the radical changes alright a
0:19:49whole day
0:19:50holding stuff around that is that
0:19:53definitely feels like the productive
0:19:55notice that you're looking for you know
0:19:56get an office end up ok what
0:20:02ok um face forward picture Mike I you
0:20:08know what I can if you look at the first
0:20:09photo and you imagine that all of the
0:20:12office furniture in that photo is
0:20:14actually a transformer mhm and in the
0:20:19second photo it has taken on is fighting
0:20:21stance
0:20:22haha i like that that's good because all
0:20:25you did you just took the furniture and
0:20:29put it on top of each other
0:20:31okay well first of all first of all most
0:20:35importantly i took the painting off the
0:20:38wall
0:20:38oh yeah where is now needs that now
0:20:40where it is is it in storage in this
0:20:43office this place I got rid of it was
0:20:44like I don't I don't need your painting
0:20:46of a building or your photo of a
0:20:47building like this is gone there were
0:20:49two desks
0:20:50now this is this is my attempt like the
0:20:54whole reason I have this office is that
0:20:56this is my attempt to make like a little
0:20:59mini amsterdam situation like we have
0:21:01talked about on the podcast before where
0:21:03I have a space where I can regularly go
0:21:05and i right
0:21:06and one of the key things about the way
0:21:08that I'm most effectively right is I
0:21:11pace back and forth and I talk out loud
0:21:13right i type
0:21:14yep right so what i don't need is a desk
0:21:18to sit at i'm at home right now where I
0:21:20have a desk to sit at like there are
0:21:21plenty of cafes in London where there
0:21:23are places to say that I don't need
0:21:24another place to sit at so i took the
0:21:26one desk and I stacked on top of the
0:21:28other desk and then i set it up as a
0:21:31standing desk so I have my keyboard is
0:21:34on the first one at standing typing
0:21:37height with a little bit of a stand and
0:21:38I have my iPad pro is on the top desk so
0:21:43that is at eye level for looking at what
0:21:46I'm writing and so this is now a space
0:21:48where I can walk back and forth i have
0:21:50this setup all in place and I don't want
0:21:54any pictures in the room I don't want
0:21:55anything in the room I was trying to
0:21:57spread it out over a period of time so I
0:21:59didn't seem like too much of a weirdo to
0:22:01the people running the office but like I
0:22:03can you take out
0:22:04all the phones and like I can you take
0:22:06out all of this other stuff that you
0:22:08have been here can you remove the
0:22:10garbage can like hoping in the garbage
0:22:11can like okay I just wanted everything
0:22:14out of there except the very few things
0:22:17that I was going to use and so I'm
0:22:19pretty happy with this
0:22:20I could also see that like having the
0:22:22floor space for your pacing nature is
0:22:25good right so pushing all the furniture
0:22:27into one corner basically is good
0:22:31because you can move around a lot
0:22:32mm it's just some little parts that i
0:22:34wanna dig into a little bit more so
0:22:36ok what is that circular thing on the
0:22:40bottom desk yeah that is a speaker okay
0:22:43that is connected to the ipad via
0:22:47bluetooth so that it can play Thunder
0:22:49sound noises all the time when I'm in
0:22:51there was like an imaginary
0:22:53thunderstorms taking place in the room
0:22:54when I'm working I recommend the app
0:22:56Thunder escape to accomplish this is
0:22:58very good dust
0:23:00mm-hmm so you're in a nondescript
0:23:06building who with no windows in the room
0:23:10that you're in right on your own
0:23:13no the funder sounds playing I need some
0:23:18kind of white noise I need to kind of
0:23:19white noise whenever working I've just
0:23:21stack I don't know if anybody's ever
0:23:22described you as an evil supervillain
0:23:25before but you're really playing
0:23:26painting that picture from now this is
0:23:28just an accessibility issue
0:23:30uh-huh i have to do this I need to have
0:23:33some kind of white noise I can't be in a
0:23:34silent room I could just imagine
0:23:36somebody walking by your room something
0:23:39makes you laugh right
0:23:41mhm and they hear the thunder and
0:23:45they're like dr. Frankenstein renting a
0:23:48place here
0:23:50ok that's interesting very interesting
0:23:52why Thunder why don't like rain or whale
0:23:56music alright well music oh you gotta be
0:23:59kidding
0:24:00no yeah now that's not that's not what I
0:24:02need that's not helpful
0:24:03that's not helpful I find like
0:24:06thunderstorms rain is just good it's
0:24:07just in the background it's easy to to
0:24:09kind of forget that it's even there so
0:24:11it's that's why use like I don't like
0:24:14some people use waves and things I don't
0:24:16like that is to period
0:24:17addict it's distracting thunderstorms
0:24:19that's what you want
0:24:20it's not a lot of that ipad I oh yeah so
0:24:23there's an ipad which is on the top and
0:24:25ipad pro that is my ipad pro is it the
0:24:28ipad pro or an iPad pro it is the only
0:24:32ipad pro that i own this thing where you
0:24:35actually where you're trying to go with
0:24:36that just check it now i only own one
0:24:39ipad pro and I got a little stand for it
0:24:42so that it can be mounted vertically on
0:24:45the desk there and I just have my couple
0:24:47writing apps on the main screen so it's
0:24:49a perfect office setup so far anyway I'm
0:24:51gonna just attempt to drive the
0:24:53listeners crazy here
0:24:54mhm you can kind of make out the apps
0:24:58we're not gonna talk about today okay
0:25:00there's a new ones in there but we're
0:25:04just not gonna talk about it we'll leave
0:25:05it for another time
0:25:06some people will notice the new ones in
0:25:08there uh-huh yeah I didn't even notice
0:25:09that when i said to you I should have
0:25:10down resident further but i like that
0:25:13you can kind of see we'll come back to
0:25:15that there is the stuff that I want to
0:25:16talk about but I want to build the
0:25:18intrigue we gave you sleep on the
0:25:20calendar who now we're giving you
0:25:23something else to worry about em what we
0:25:26talked about office spaces and clothes
0:25:27officers who I took a trip to facebook
0:25:31last week
0:25:32oh yeah yeah a friend of mine comes over
0:25:34from San Francisco works facebook and he
0:25:37invited me to go visit the London
0:25:40offices would hate it all my would you
0:25:43hate it
0:25:44yeah is it open always it's as open as
0:25:47an office space could be well I'm i
0:25:49would expect no less from facebook
0:25:51because they had that marine the article
0:25:54about their new headquarters that they
0:25:55built which is the largest open floor
0:25:58space in the world my buddy works there
0:26:00he says he gets like 5,000 steps a day
0:26:02just trying to do his job
0:26:04God so I'm so when you tell me that
0:26:08London has a big open office space i'm
0:26:10not surprised yes over a couple of
0:26:11floors but like I got went in there and
0:26:13there were four people really
0:26:15enthusiastically playing ping-pong
0:26:17mm like really enthusiastically playing
0:26:19there was no joke who had a couple of
0:26:22floors they have snacks everywhere
0:26:24we had lunch at the canteen which is
0:26:26like completely free food and there was
0:26:29like sweets and stuff it was great that
0:26:31everybody where there was like working
0:26:33spaces it was just like rows and rows of
0:26:36desks it was interesting to me because
0:26:38everything was really cool and fancy and
0:26:40it looked lovely but when you look at
0:26:42the desks there's just nothing you can
0:26:44really do it always just looks not that
0:26:46nice
0:26:47yeah it's always just gonna be a
0:26:48computer and a flat surface like that's
0:26:49just what you're gonna have yeah and and
0:26:51it's just it seems funny to me so you
0:26:52can spend all this money and time and
0:26:54effort into like creating these great
0:26:56spaces but the actual places that you
0:26:58sit down and work there just rows of
0:27:00white desks like there's nothing you can
0:27:02do about it and it was just interesting
0:27:03to me to see it now hopefully when i
0:27:06visit San Francisco next I'm gonna go
0:27:08and take a look at the facebook office
0:27:10there and I'm interested to see what
0:27:12that one looks like as well yeah I would
0:27:15be very curious to see that on the
0:27:17inside as well yeah because i can
0:27:19imagine it's everything I saw last week
0:27:23turned up to eleven sure but i can't
0:27:26imagine you driving in an environment
0:27:28like that I just don't think I would be
0:27:31able to do good work in an environment
0:27:35like that i mean i would just have to be
0:27:36doing some kind of very different job in
0:27:40order to do work i saw a lot of people
0:27:42in kind of corners and things like that
0:27:46like on bean bags and stuff like it
0:27:47seemed like there were a lot of people
0:27:49that were like I can't work in these
0:27:50banks of desks
0:27:52mmm everyone seems really spread out
0:27:53even though there were all these desks
0:27:56and most of them are empty people were
0:27:59in other places
0:28:00yeah there have been let's just say
0:28:03there have been big open office
0:28:05environment that I have been in where I
0:28:06have noticed the same phenomenon like
0:28:09there are tons of desks there's clearly
0:28:12personal items on all of these desks and
0:28:14as far as i can tell every available
0:28:17space that is not a desk is the space
0:28:19that people are actually using to do
0:28:21work like if they can get away from
0:28:23their desk they are going to and I'm
0:28:26like well isn't that interesting
0:28:28maybe you company we might want to take
0:28:30note of this
0:28:31it's like if you if you have other
0:28:33spaces for people to work they will work
0:28:36there they will not work
0:28:38their infinite rows of white desks with
0:28:40computers in front of them just like
0:28:43just the thing to note companies just
0:28:45saying so that the plan the plan Mike
0:28:48with this office is that I'm going to be
0:28:52writing here and so for the moment what
0:28:55I'm doing is I am trying to treat this
0:28:59very much as like a holy like a
0:29:01sacrosanct place like I'm taking it very
0:29:04very seriously the idea that you go here
0:29:08you're only going to do one thing which
0:29:11is pacing and writing and when you're
0:29:14not doing that you're going to leave so
0:29:17this this feeds back into what we were
0:29:19talking about on previous episodes that
0:29:21i am trying to teach my own brain to
0:29:25train my own brain like this is the
0:29:27thing that happens in this room
0:29:30nothing else happens in this room we
0:29:32don't do emails here we don't look at
0:29:34read it here we don't do anything else
0:29:36which is part of the very reason why I
0:29:38didn't even want chairs in the room like
0:29:40I don't want the option to sit down
0:29:42because if I need to sit down i can do
0:29:44that plenty of other places so that's
0:29:47what I'm I'm trying to establish this
0:29:50and I'm trying to build little little
0:29:52routines like when I'm walking towards
0:29:54this office there's a there's a certain
0:29:56landmark that I pass was like when I
0:29:58passed that landmark if I'm listening to
0:30:00music or podcasts or anything like it
0:30:02has to go off like we have to get ready
0:30:04as we're approaching this place to start
0:30:05doing the work and like all the stuff i
0:30:07thinks like it sounds kind of crazy but
0:30:10I'm just I'm trying to be super strict
0:30:13about it in the same way that like I was
0:30:16really aware that in that Amsterdam trip
0:30:17it was very easy to feel like I'm being
0:30:19very serious about this and kind of
0:30:22taking away my own decision-making
0:30:24ability now whether or not this works is
0:30:28a question that i will only have the
0:30:30answer to six weeks from now so we'll
0:30:32have to see in the future like does this
0:30:34work because if it's just another office
0:30:37space then it doesn't make sense for me
0:30:38to continue to rent it but i am i'm
0:30:41trying to be very very sacrosanct about
0:30:45this little writing monastery that I
0:30:48have
0:30:48of at least for the time being so we'll
0:30:50have to check in later and see how it
0:30:51goes
0:30:52are you just writing no research in that
0:30:55the short answer is yes the slightly
0:31:00longer answer is that I do let myself
0:31:03take a look at if I have some stuff in
0:31:06say Evernote or do you have some notes
0:31:08files that i like to access sometimes
0:31:10when I'm writing but i am not allowing
0:31:13myself to go out on the internet on like
0:31:16a fun fact finding mission right because
0:31:18that can just end up taking forever and
0:31:21it's not the same kind of thing like as
0:31:24I have to discuss before the bottleneck
0:31:27for me is the writing process and like
0:31:29anything I can do to get more high
0:31:32quality writing out in a month is good
0:31:34and so like that is what will make this
0:31:37office makes sense and again so far just
0:31:41for the first you know four days that
0:31:42I've had it when it's super easy but
0:31:44it's been great like I get up early in
0:31:46the morning I walk right out that goes
0:31:49straight to the office and I just start
0:31:51writing immediately and it's like this
0:31:53is what i need there's nothing in the
0:31:54morning to interrupt like there's
0:31:55nothing to go wrong i'm just going to
0:31:57wake up and walk right to this place and
0:31:59just try not even to think about it so
0:32:01so far so good but it is over the long
0:32:04haul that really that really matters
0:32:06because what i was going to say is why
0:32:08don't you just not connect to the Wi-Fi
0:32:11at the office on ipad i already had a
0:32:13little conversation with the
0:32:16receptionist at the front desk where
0:32:17like I will sign you up for your far for
0:32:19our telephone internet package and I had
0:32:21to explain to them no i don't i don't
0:32:23want your telephone or internet package
0:32:25and then that was one of the many ways
0:32:28in which i draw attention to myself when
0:32:30I'm really just this is what I'm saying
0:32:32right you don't want connection to the
0:32:34outside world you move your furniture
0:32:36you took down the picture and you place
0:32:39under Moses people must think you're
0:32:42like okay evil or crazy but let's just
0:32:48say like the I don't want the internet
0:32:49was just one in a sequence of things
0:32:52that I was like I really don't want to
0:32:53be drawing attention to myself but
0:32:54literally everything I'm doing is
0:32:56drawing attention to myself like I just
0:32:57want to move in nice and anonymously
0:33:00day one the manager comes in at the end
0:33:03of the day to see how I'm doing and he
0:33:05takes one look at the place and he goes
0:33:06what are you doing in here like if it's
0:33:10at this point at this point I like I
0:33:14pulled up part of the false floor to get
0:33:16at some of the wiring because i wanted
0:33:17to hide the telephone wires that were
0:33:19coming like I don't need to see these
0:33:20wires like I just want to put them back
0:33:22under the false floor like I don't need
0:33:24beautiful hi it's it's just it wasn't uh
0:33:28it's like I just want to be anonymous
0:33:31please don't walk in here right now like
0:33:33just I'm just gonna come in and i'm just
0:33:35going to leave and I'm going to talk to
0:33:37nobody like you never have to worry
0:33:38about my office people like I'm just
0:33:40here doing my own thing playing my
0:33:42Thunder noises
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0:36:36names so thanks to hover for supporting
0:36:38the show is probably the first time this
0:36:40has happened in between our two episodes
0:36:44you release to youtube videos
0:36:46oh yeah I did what happened yeah
0:36:49amsterdam happened yeah partly that
0:36:54that's actually that's actually no joke
0:36:56like a i was able to move both videos
0:36:58forward quite a lot during that period
0:37:00of time and it just happened to work out
0:37:02that they were both finishing up around
0:37:05the same time and you know me if I have
0:37:08something done
0:37:08I just want to release it so they were
0:37:10finished a week apart so I released the
0:37:11week apart
0:37:12that was the video this the second part
0:37:15to the America box video right which I i
0:37:19really liked that video I have to say
0:37:21I've seen that video now about four or
0:37:23five times for various reasons no
0:37:25excellent let's get that you count up
0:37:27yep might be one of my favorite videos
0:37:30appeals interesting it's interesting you
0:37:32say that because i'm not sure i think
0:37:37that the the section which is the very
0:37:42end of that video the zebra section like
0:37:45zebras vs horses I think that might be
0:37:47the best thing i have written to date
0:37:49that particular section
0:37:50yeah sure i'm not sure if this is like
0:37:52my favorite video that I've ever made I
0:37:54wouldn't say that I still think humans
0:37:56not applies my favorite thing that I
0:37:57have done but that little section about
0:38:00like horse herds hierarchy and like all
0:38:03the zebra stuff like I think that just
0:38:04came out amazingly and without a doubt
0:38:07that was all done in Amsterdam
0:38:09embarrassingly my favorite line from the
0:38:12video which nobody appreciated but I
0:38:14just loved was at the line about 40 is
0:38:17there's no such thing as society when i
0:38:19came up with that in Amsterdam I
0:38:21literally did like a little fist pump to
0:38:24myself in the hotel room I was like
0:38:26that's gold like I love this that's
0:38:29amazing right
0:38:30I was super excited about that like
0:38:32nobody commented on that locking
0:38:35absolutely nobody you know because that
0:38:37wasn't the goals of the video man could
0:38:40always hot chicken
0:38:41everybody loved top chicken and nobody
0:38:45loved my for zebras there's no such
0:38:47thing as society like to give you go
0:38:49back and you watch that video you can
0:38:50hear me really sell there's no such
0:38:53thing as society in the reading but like
0:38:55nobody cared
0:38:56this is where you just never know what
0:38:58people reacted that delivery of top
0:39:00check-in that's what know we're top
0:39:03chicken and it zooms in on the great
0:39:04phase perfect so that that's why i think
0:39:07i liked this video is there were lots of
0:39:10little all flourishes in the delivery
0:39:13and the animation that I really enjoy i
0:39:17spoke about these on the show before the
0:39:19things that i really like like the
0:39:21visual jokes that tie up with something
0:39:23that you're saying and there were a lot
0:39:24of those types of things in there like
0:39:26the way that the llamas were jumping out
0:39:28of the pan and a lot of the stock
0:39:30footage that you used really tied up
0:39:34very nicely i had right there are just
0:39:36lots and lots of little parts of that
0:39:37video that i really enjoyed and the more
0:39:40I watch this is quite a complex one
0:39:42the more the more times i watched it the
0:39:44more times i understood what was going
0:39:46on and also enjoy it a lot of the little
0:39:48details
0:39:49yeah i have to say that 1 i'm i'm pretty
0:39:52pleased with I probably haven't been as
0:39:55pleased with the release since the
0:39:58netherlands video i did I mean many
0:40:00years ago now where the netherlands one
0:40:03was the first video I made when I felt
0:40:04like this was just smooth sailing from
0:40:07start to finish like I had an idea and
0:40:09it came out pretty much exactly the way
0:40:10I wanted and and this one
0:40:12it wasn't smooth like that but it is
0:40:14most of the time when i'm releasing a
0:40:17video I feel like oh thank god like this
0:40:19is over and it's done and I can just put
0:40:21it up online and i will probably never
0:40:23watch it again because I kind of cringe
0:40:25about it but this one I was
0:40:27the ones like oh no this is this is
0:40:29great like I'm pretty happy with the way
0:40:30it came out like it worked out well in
0:40:32the end and so its up and I'm it's like
0:40:34I'm up was much more like a happy day
0:40:35like oh well Paul releases to the world
0:40:37and then also people stop yelling at me
0:40:39for the second part of the America box
0:40:41video which I was getting a lot of on
0:40:42twitter i cannot believe that you get
0:40:44out as quickly as you did you never know
0:40:46with me you never know what's going to I
0:40:47was expecting at least two more videos
0:40:49before part 2 like to keep people
0:40:52guessing you know I keep them on their
0:40:53toes and then he released the Star Trek
0:40:56transporter video
0:40:58yep which i know is when you've been
0:40:59working on for a very long time
0:41:02yeah really long time that one's been in
0:41:04the been in the books these two videos
0:41:06are actually quite similar to me in some
0:41:09ways because both of them are are not so
0:41:12reliant on my drawing anything like the
0:41:16America box part two is largely stock
0:41:19footage and then the star trek video is
0:41:22entirely the artwork of Knut who I
0:41:25worked with on several projects before
0:41:27including the Lord of the Rings videos
0:41:29and the single transferable vote video
0:41:31so both of these have a very very
0:41:34different style but I I wanted to look
0:41:37to today and think like a when did I
0:41:39really get started on the star trek
0:41:41video and I went back into the slack
0:41:44that i use for people that I work with
0:41:46and I got the first concept drawings
0:41:50from Knut on october 11 for the star
0:41:54trek video was the very first time I had
0:41:58approached him and I asked i want to do
0:42:00something on Star Trek give me a couple
0:42:02of visual styles and he dropped
0:42:04something in the slack
0:42:05I mean what is that now like four months
0:42:07ago thats lot long time ago from from
0:42:10the current day so these things are in
0:42:12in progress for quite a while so I mean
0:42:16this answers one of the questions that I
0:42:18had which is would you consider doing
0:42:19more videos in this style because this
0:42:22animation are my word is so fat
0:42:26it's just superb yeah can do does an
0:42:30amazing job without a doubt i mean
0:42:32that's that's why I like working with
0:42:33his depiction of you i love i love it
0:42:38you know like just that
0:42:40the giving that character more life and
0:42:46making it more human
0:42:48it's not an easy task to take something
0:42:50that is a stick figure and then say how
0:42:53are we going to represent this in a more
0:42:55fully fleshed-out way while still
0:42:58keeping what is recognizable about it
0:43:00but he totally succeeded I gave him more
0:43:02so than that taking something that is
0:43:03iconic in its own way linked into the
0:43:06people that are familiar with you and
0:43:09like your work the the way that you
0:43:12portray your character in the video is a
0:43:15massive part of it and he really evolved
0:43:20that character who are just excellently
0:43:25I i think it's fantastic that like the
0:43:28life that he brought to it like one of
0:43:29my favorite parts is when you're crying
0:43:32on sofa like in the fetal position and
0:43:36it's like that is such a great depiction
0:43:38yeah I just thought the whole thing was
0:43:41was fantastic
0:43:42that right there is a great example of
0:43:44like okay so people wanted to like a
0:43:46white is uses different artwork like why
0:43:48didn't you do it yourself in your own
0:43:49stick figures for both the star trek
0:43:52video and for the domestication video
0:43:55they they had the same thing in common
0:43:57of man if I was going to sit down and
0:44:00actually try to draw out these videos in
0:44:03some way there are many parts where one
0:44:06I just simply wouldn't have the artistic
0:44:08ability to do so and to where both of
0:44:12these things just require a level of
0:44:14detail that you could not do in stick
0:44:17figures right it's it is just simply not
0:44:20possible and this is the same reason why
0:44:23I went to commute to do the Lord of the
0:44:25Rings video because when I was going
0:44:28through that when I thought like oh let
0:44:29me do with a video about Lord of the
0:44:31Rings I want to talk about tents and
0:44:32elves and Men and hobbits and all the
0:44:34stuff and I realized really quickly like
0:44:36you know what you can do this with stick
0:44:37figures man like it just there's not
0:44:40enough that looks visually different and
0:44:43so once again for the star trek one when
0:44:45I was thinking about doing this it was
0:44:48that it was the same thing all over
0:44:49again
0:44:50I was originally going to have much more
0:44:52of the crew and talk about specific
0:44:53examples like that's how it began as
0:44:56like I can't draw stick figures that are
0:44:59obviously the different captain's like
0:45:01that's just not possible to do in my
0:45:03usual style so it's like I have to bring
0:45:06on someone to to do this and so that's
0:45:08that's what are some of the original
0:45:09concept artwork was I had commute giving
0:45:11me like various characters like how
0:45:13would they look what know what are we
0:45:14going to have this look like on screen
0:45:17because there's no way i can adequately
0:45:19with stick figures have to Rikers and
0:45:22just as the as the project went on I
0:45:26eventually realized like oh I i liked
0:45:27this artwork so much that can I came to
0:45:30an agreement where he was going to just
0:45:32do all of it like we're just going to
0:45:35make this one hundred percent your
0:45:38artwork up on the screen and I think it
0:45:40came out really well if it did I loved
0:45:43it like that the the actual topic i'm
0:45:45not a star trek guy em but you know I
0:45:49understand enough about I've seen the
0:45:50movies who but for me it wasn't really
0:45:54about the topic
0:45:56it just all its design and just the way
0:45:59that everything looked it really really
0:46:01made it work it really worked in a
0:46:04different way to to how your videos
0:46:06normally do it was very different very
0:46:08refreshing I think and I i really
0:46:10enjoyed it i wish that they could be
0:46:12more like it but I know how hard it is
0:46:14to do you know yeah well i mean this is
0:46:17this is one of these things because when
0:46:19eventually came to the conclusion of
0:46:21like oh I can have someone else do all
0:46:25of the artwork instead of trying to
0:46:26think of mixing this with my regular
0:46:28style and and his drawings it's like
0:46:30I'll let me just entirely have someone
0:46:33else do this
0:46:34my initial thought was like oh well this
0:46:36is going to be a huge time-saver isn't
0:46:38it like that the NFL is like no it's not
0:46:40actually here's time-saver there is the
0:46:42potential for it and and the reason that
0:46:44I think that is looking up mining your
0:46:48working relationship and how that's
0:46:51developed because we collaborate on this
0:46:54project and overtime arm we've learned
0:47:00each of his preferences in the way that
0:47:03things should
0:47:03done like I think that if you willing to
0:47:06put the time and effort into it could be
0:47:09possible that somebody could do the work
0:47:11for you
0:47:11I especially if you know the thing that
0:47:14your best and the thing to the longest
0:47:16is the writing you know then you could
0:47:18focus completely on that and have
0:47:20somebody else help you out with the
0:47:21artwork so we're thinking about this is
0:47:24like okay the way that I was currently
0:47:26working was we were going back and forth
0:47:29about the art you know he was sending me
0:47:31stuff almost all of which was like it's
0:47:34amazing do more other we like have a
0:47:35back-and-forth about how things should
0:47:36be represented and and and the rest of
0:47:39this and ultimately in the end what I
0:47:43got from Knut was about a hundred
0:47:46drawings vector drawings for the various
0:47:51scenes but even then the the additional
0:47:55thing which takes up a huge amount of
0:47:57time is that he is not the animator i am
0:48:01still the animator and so even though i
0:48:03have these drawings because they're
0:48:06vectors each drawing can be broken down
0:48:09into the various elements and then I am
0:48:12animating the various elements so
0:48:14anytime something moves on the screen
0:48:17anytime something fades into fades out
0:48:19or has a wobbly effect or whatever like
0:48:21i am doing all of that and so what I
0:48:23have sent you that you can see it will
0:48:25be in the show notes for the listeners
0:48:27is what the video looks like on my end
0:48:31to animate when i'm working within Final
0:48:33Cut Pro and so while I start with a
0:48:38hundred drawings in the end there are
0:48:41probably somewhere between you know
0:48:43maybe 200 to 400 animation elements of
0:48:48where I'm saying okay this transition
0:48:50happens now this special effect comes on
0:48:52screen this image transitions into this
0:48:55other image this guy moves from point X
0:48:57to point B hears a sound effect that is
0:49:00going to play underneath what's going on
0:49:02the screen so even though all of the
0:49:04artwork was done I was shocked by how
0:49:08much animation work there was still to
0:49:11do
0:49:11even after this point so if if I was
0:49:15ever to try to complete
0:49:17we outsource all of this is like I would
0:49:19need an additional person to be the
0:49:22animation person like it's it can't just
0:49:24be the artwork because it's a bit
0:49:28surprising you think like boy a hundred
0:49:30images it sounds like a lot but if you
0:49:32just have the images on the screen over
0:49:34the course of four minutes like it's not
0:49:35actually nearly enough action that
0:49:38that's taking place like you need to
0:49:40have more going on to keep it
0:49:42interesting
0:49:42hence all of all of the motion or all of
0:49:45the transitions are all of the effects a
0:49:47little later on in a moment we're going
0:49:49to be talking about creativity and
0:49:51focuses on pixel which is a movie studio
0:49:54and animation studio it's like you would
0:49:58need to and it's not impossible to do
0:50:00this have like a mini version of that
0:50:01right so like you would come up with the
0:50:04story you would maybe do some
0:50:06storyboards and then have an animate
0:50:09have like an artist and animator put
0:50:12them together for you
0:50:14yeah well well there is a world in which
0:50:16that could be the same person as well
0:50:18yeah there is a world in which that
0:50:20could be the the same person it's the
0:50:23thing is always difficult to find people
0:50:24talented in one area let alone two areas
0:50:27show so I trying to find someone who is
0:50:29an amazing illustrator and who also is
0:50:32great at doing animation work in Final
0:50:35Cut Pro like that's a whole different as
0:50:37a whole different thing which is why I
0:50:39just like I'm i would say i would be
0:50:41looking for someone who is good at
0:50:43animating which is a different skill
0:50:45yeah but of course I I am never under
0:50:47the illusion that like I am somehow like
0:50:49a magic person who is doing on
0:50:52replicable work like most of the people
0:50:56i know are working with teams like it's
0:50:59it's interesting and weird that like
0:51:01that there are I know very few YouTube
0:51:04people who don't have teams around them
0:51:06at this point like I am I am one of the
0:51:08the very few people i know who is
0:51:10genuinely a 1-1 person youtube operation
0:51:14at this scale
0:51:16yeah who doesn't have employees like
0:51:18permanent full-time employees so it is
0:51:22an interesting position but it's just as
0:51:25with many of these things like I can
0:51:26because I had never had
0:51:29this much artwork done before i had i
0:51:34had falsely assume like oh this is gonna
0:51:36be super easy to put together and like
0:51:38you know if it's still it is still not
0:51:42easy and so like if you wanted to ever
0:51:44outsource it like you need one more
0:51:47person to to help with this I would bet
0:51:51the it still took up less of your time
0:51:55in the aggregate but it may be didn't
0:51:58feel that way
0:51:59the question is did it take less time
0:52:03than it takes me to animate an average
0:52:06video the answer to that is no like it
0:52:11took the same number of days plus the
0:52:14back-and-forth with canoed spread out
0:52:16over a couple of months like there's no
0:52:17there's no way that it took me less time
0:52:20but but the real question is if i didn't
0:52:24have the artwork done and I attempted to
0:52:27do this all on my own
0:52:29that would have taken me months and
0:52:31months of work so there is a way in
0:52:33which this saved me a huge amount of
0:52:36time in the in the same way that like
0:52:38getting all the stock video for the
0:52:39domestication video like if I tried to
0:52:41animate that that would have been months
0:52:44and months of work instead of four days
0:52:46of animating so like I there's a sense
0:52:49in which I saved a lot of time
0:52:50sure but not like actual number of hours
0:52:54out of my working schedule like it's a
0:52:55slightly different question you know i
0:52:57love your work but it doesn't you
0:52:59couldn't have done this now of course
0:53:01not you don't have no skill whatsoever
0:53:02like you couldn't even closer now you
0:53:05wouldn't be able to do it and I'm
0:53:07looking at it now
0:53:08one week 1.4 million views yeah pretty
0:53:11good maybe it was worth it i think like
0:53:16that i have to have the right topic in
0:53:19mind for this kind of style
0:53:21I i don't think i don't think that i
0:53:25could just generally say like I'm always
0:53:27going to do videos with all of this
0:53:29artwork like if I'm ever doing something
0:53:32that has anything to do with countries i
0:53:34always want to use the country girls
0:53:36that I have like I just I love the way
0:53:38that looks
0:53:39I think that's a real signature style at
0:53:42this point like I'm always
0:53:43going to want to do anything that has to
0:53:44do with countries using those particular
0:53:46stick figures come but i can but like
0:53:50you can see the commonality between the
0:53:52star trek video and the Lord of the
0:53:53Rings video is is both of them it's like
0:53:55there's more detail than can possibly be
0:53:58represented with stick figures and so if
0:54:02i come to that situation again if
0:54:04there's a topic that I'm working on
0:54:05where that feels like if the case i will
0:54:06definitely definitely think about doing
0:54:08it again sir i miss any I haven't got a
0:54:13name for him but I'll miss that little
0:54:14cgpgrey maybe he'll come back someday
0:54:17sir i would like to also thank a glue
0:54:20for helping support this week's episode
0:54:22igloo make the internet you'll actually
0:54:24like what does that mean well it means
0:54:26that you have the tools to create an
0:54:28internet that looks and works the way
0:54:30you want it looks and works the way that
0:54:33you're used to with the way that you're
0:54:35used to using the internet rather than
0:54:37looking at something which looks like it
0:54:39was built in the nineties by somebody
0:54:40who obviously couldn't see into the
0:54:42future and had no idea how we'd be using
0:54:43our computers like for example now we're
0:54:46able to do work wherever we want with
0:54:48our phones and tablets and laptops equal
0:54:51works on all of them
0:54:52it has responsive design so it's gonna
0:54:54work everywhere you can do everything
0:54:56you can manage your task list from your
0:54:58iphone you can manage your projects and
0:55:01speak to your colleagues from your
0:55:03android tablet it doesn't matter what
0:55:04device you're using if it can connect to
0:55:06the internet you can use igloo talking
0:55:10about design you're able to customize it
0:55:12give it the look and theme and colors of
0:55:14your company so it feels right at home
0:55:16in your organization also able to turn
0:55:19on and off different pieces of
0:55:21functionality for different members of
0:55:23your teams so you can give them just the
0:55:25tools that they need you can share files
0:55:27of your co-workers for you all to
0:55:29collaborate on you can track who's read
0:55:31documents of read receipts this is super
0:55:33useful for making sure that everybody
0:55:35has seen an important document that must
0:55:37go around the company you can also
0:55:38integrate with services that box Google
0:55:40Drive and Dropbox so people have access
0:55:42to all of their files wherever they need
0:55:44them wherever they are
0:55:45it was secured of 256 bit encryption
0:55:47single sign-on and has active directory
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0:55:55you can try it for free with any team up
0:55:58to 10 people for as long as you want
0:56:01so you can make sure that is right for
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0:56:08english software.com / cortex thank you
0:56:11so much to eat glue for their continued
0:56:12support of this show and all of real FM
0:56:15alright so the second cortex business
0:56:19book club is now in session
0:56:22it's time it's time so we read
0:56:25creativity inc
0:56:27yes you pick this book this time this is
0:56:29a book that I've wanted to read for some
0:56:31time but never got around to it but then
0:56:34when it came to be my turn to pick a
0:56:36book after the tragedy of the e-myth
0:56:41revisited i decided to go for a book
0:56:44that i really enjoyed the thought of I'm
0:56:47a big pics off an lu so I was very
0:56:49intrigued to to read this so I did
0:56:52listen to the audiobook unabridged
0:56:54audiobook it was much longer then met
0:56:58like twice the size i think but I got
0:57:01through it all in like a week and a half
0:57:03it's like 12 hours and audio book form
0:57:06yeah something like that
0:57:07looking through my notes I originally
0:57:10read this back in November 2014
0:57:15according to all of my kindle highlights
0:57:18back when I was still reading books on
0:57:20kindle with their appalling topography
0:57:22and so I hadn't read it since then and I
0:57:25also I relisten to probably about eighty
0:57:29percent of the book this week on
0:57:31audiobook and then I sort of skimmed the
0:57:33last few chapters as well so i reread it
0:57:36recently although you may have some more
0:57:39detail towards the end then i do and i
0:57:42also have all of my notes from last time
0:57:45it's a funny experience to read a book
0:57:46like this because I'm listening to an
0:57:48audiobook and i think i read it the
0:57:50first time right but I'm listening to an
0:57:52audiobook now I'll hear the office say
0:57:54something like oh that's an excellent
0:57:56point so i opened up my kindle app to
0:57:58highlight that section and I was like
0:57:59all right two years ago me thought the
0:58:01same thing and highlighted exactly the
0:58:03past the child going to highlight
0:58:05it's a funny experience like a look at
0:58:08me and passed me agreeing on what is an
0:58:10interesting point but also clever me yes
0:58:12me recap don't we agree on the
0:58:15importance of this passage so small
0:58:18yes but so tell me Mike you as this this
0:58:21is your first experience with creativity
0:58:24inc
0:58:25what did you think of the book it wasn't
0:58:27completely what I expected then and very
0:58:30different to other books that I've read
0:58:33like this because it was a lot more
0:58:35biographical em at kenmore tells his
0:58:39story and through telling his story hits
0:58:43upon some other things that have been
0:58:44important in helping him build and
0:58:47manage and run Pixar and now Disney
0:58:49Animation em so it was unexpected but I
0:58:53think I enjoyed it more because of that
0:58:55I like biographies of people that are
0:58:58interesting for people that I respect
0:59:00and while side of only known a little
0:59:03bit about it kept more from from other
0:59:05books mainly apple books because there's
0:59:08obviously a big crossover right right I
0:59:11respect the company so much that he was
0:59:14basically it's kind of like the
0:59:16biography of him and pixar together
0:59:19yeah without a doubt yeah there's a ton
0:59:20of of early pixar stuff in this and also
0:59:26like where where there's end cap will
0:59:28come from how did he end up to be in
0:59:30this situation and also there's a lot of
0:59:33steve jobs related stuff in this
0:59:35especially the afterward that whole
0:59:38section is basically ad cap more telling
0:59:41his story of Steve and why the stories
0:59:45that have been out and circulated on
0:59:47about our the full picture of the man
0:59:49whose fascinating parts got nothing to
0:59:51do with the creativity part which is why
0:59:53it's right at the end it was a good
0:59:54place to put it but I could tell like
0:59:56from him like I need to tell this story
0:59:58because i hate whatever
0:59:58because i hate whatever
1:00:00I'm saying yeah it was it was a total
1:00:02total non sequitur to the rest of the
1:00:05book but like this is the most logical
1:00:07place to put this this section about
1:00:08what is what is his impression of steve
1:00:11jobs so in a similar way to how we went
1:00:15through the last one I'll kind of go
1:00:16through my notes that kind of follows
1:00:18the book chronologically even one of my
1:00:21favorite things and time back into the
1:00:23biographical part is that this book is
1:00:26about a man who had a dream who achieved
1:00:31it
1:00:31mhm right the idea of wanting to make a
1:00:34computer animated movie when he started
1:00:37out it was impossible that you couldn't
1:00:39do it but he wanted to do it and then
1:00:42did it and I love those kind of stories
1:00:45because i think that there is something
1:00:48nice in knowing that people achieve
1:00:50their dreams if with the right amount of
1:00:52work and effort i think that is a good
1:00:55story I think it's possible you know I
1:00:58think that mean you've both done that to
1:01:00certain degrees i expect quite a lot of
1:01:03people listen to the show how people
1:01:05that have creative work at usually tends
1:01:06to be part of a dream or a long-term
1:01:09goal and I also as you know probably
1:01:11quite a lot of people listen to show
1:01:13that have one they're trying to achieve
1:01:14so I think it's always good to hear
1:01:17these stories of people that have
1:01:18something that they want to do and then
1:01:21go out and do it
1:01:23so this is a good one for that as well
1:01:25as a lot of the lessons that that tries
1:01:28to teach ya i can agree with that and
1:01:31this is this is a time to just interject
1:01:35in a sense a lot of people after our
1:01:38last book club episode wanted to know
1:01:42like why the hell i would read a book
1:01:43like that like the e-myth revisited and
1:01:45why would read these business books even
1:01:47though people often hear that i don't
1:01:49have always great things to say about
1:01:50them but I i think this falls into the
1:01:53category of like when you are reading
1:01:55you are shaping your own mind and you
1:02:01are shaping like the kind of person that
1:02:03you can possibly be and this falls into
1:02:06the category of like if you want to do
1:02:09something different it is useful to read
1:02:12out people who have done things
1:02:14differently or wet like whether or not
1:02:16the particulars of their situation
1:02:18exactly matters for your situation is
1:02:20not relevant
1:02:22it's it's a case of like showing your
1:02:24brain like oh ok here's the story of
1:02:27this person and how he went to achieve
1:02:30an unusual thing and like here here is
1:02:33the way he did this and look brain like
1:02:36this is the thing to think about like
1:02:37I'm going to keep exposing you to this
1:02:39idea over and over again like people can
1:02:43achieve things and they can they can
1:02:44reach their goals and like here's how
1:02:46here's how this person has done it
1:02:47here's how maybe that person has done it
1:02:49and you brain like pick from that what
1:02:52you think is useful but just be aware
1:02:55that like it's on it's almost like you
1:02:58want to create for your own single brain
1:03:00like a culture of success right like
1:03:02think things can happen well brain and
1:03:04just be aware of that and that's why I
1:03:06think these things are useful to read
1:03:09and why I've been reading them for you
1:03:11know many years at this stage camel
1:03:13himself is also pretty critical of
1:03:15business books which I like and and
1:03:17multiple points in the the the book
1:03:21talks about why a lot of these types of
1:03:24books a pointless right i really like it
1:03:27just addresses it and he's like look a
1:03:30lot of these things don't really help
1:03:32people they're full of empty lessons and
1:03:35like even at the end he kind of distills
1:03:38a lot of things that he believes in two
1:03:40simple sentences and he's like these are
1:03:42statements that are true they are what i
1:03:46think of as talking points and places to
1:03:49go from so let's look at all of these
1:03:51lessons these takeaways they will be
1:03:53caught in other types of books has food
1:03:58for thought rather than just like
1:04:00lessons i'm trying to teach you and I
1:04:03quite like that approach i agree that
1:04:06that perhaps one of the values of this
1:04:10is not so much him telling you here's
1:04:14the way to do it as opposed to him
1:04:16describing lots of the other people he
1:04:20works with and how they think about
1:04:22things
1:04:22x and it's it's a bit of a like when you
1:04:25are reading it he just like throwing a
1:04:27whole bunch of stuff at your brain and
1:04:29maybe some of it will stick and some of
1:04:30it won't but you know he talks about
1:04:32like oh here's how is how Brad Bird
1:04:34things about making a movie like this is
1:04:36not how I think about making a movie I
1:04:38think brad bird is wrong but he made the
1:04:40incredibles right so like you take from
1:04:42that what you want and then it goes to a
1:04:44bunch of the other directors and talks
1:04:45about like here's how this person thinks
1:04:47about it here's how that person thinks
1:04:48about it and you know it's like some of
1:04:51them think about like they're on an
1:04:52archaeological expedition and they're
1:04:54uncovering things and others imagine it
1:04:56as though they are building a structure
1:04:58brick by brick and he's just he's just
1:05:00going through how other creative people
1:05:03he works with think about their own work
1:05:06and like maybe some of that will
1:05:07resonate with you and maybe some of it
1:05:09won't but the book is not super
1:05:12prescriptive it's he doesn't have like a
1:05:16one-two-three punch for here's here's
1:05:19exactly what you need to do that I've
1:05:25kind of recorded in that vein few of
1:05:28things that spoke to me of what he had
1:05:31instituted pics rm1 of the clear themes
1:05:35that runs through this book is the idea
1:05:38of giving creative people autonomy to
1:05:40create who like provide them with the
1:05:42resources that they need
1:05:44don't try and box them in and let them
1:05:46see what they can do and that's such an
1:05:49interesting thing to me a lot of what
1:05:50I'm going to be basing my thoughts on is
1:05:52the companies that I've worked in and
1:05:55how different they are to the way that
1:05:58capital describes how he builds his
1:06:00company and the idea of kind of like it
1:06:03a lot of this they could give people
1:06:05challenges see how they do with them you
1:06:07know he talks about hiring good teams
1:06:12and giving them good work and you will
1:06:14get great stuff rather than hiring like
1:06:16mediocre people and giving them it
1:06:18thinks the work on you like you just not
1:06:19going to get the results out of them and
1:06:21and this is the lot of give people the
1:06:24autonomy that they need to allow the
1:06:26brains to work and come up with
1:06:28something interesting
1:06:30so I guess is right this is where I have
1:06:33to ask you as the company man of the of
1:06:36the podcast yeah
1:06:37this strikes you as different from the
1:06:40places that you're familiar with oh yeah
1:06:42yeah okay is it because like this is up
1:06:45my reading of the book i was much less
1:06:47charitable toward than the first time I
1:06:49read it again and this was one of the
1:06:51the the places where I kept thinking
1:06:53like ya da like but it's not like that
1:06:57he had like it's hard to find creative
1:06:59people and when you find good creative
1:07:01people let them do what they want to do
1:07:04it like like there were plenty of times
1:07:06when working with Knut whereas like I
1:07:08don't have specific instructions for you
1:07:10but like you just keep going like the
1:07:11whole reason i'm working with you is
1:07:13because you are talented like that's
1:07:15that's why we're here together right and
1:07:16like I trust you to do stuff so go like
1:07:20just just run with it man
1:07:22and so the other like when i was reading
1:07:23this I was feeling a bit like yeah of
1:07:25course a camera like what else would it
1:07:27be but it sounds like you know what else
1:07:30it would be so i was working in
1:07:32marketing right for the company that I
1:07:34worked for so I had a semi kind of
1:07:38creative role that we would help come up
1:07:40with the marketing campaigns along with
1:07:43external agencies that we hired that
1:07:46that totally counts as creative ya get
1:07:48any role in marketing counts as a
1:07:50creative field sure but I get very
1:07:52different what we want coming up with
1:07:54the campaign's we weren't like an
1:07:55internal agency or anything like them we
1:07:57would have agencies that will help us
1:07:59so you wouldn't like two levels of
1:08:01creativity here and there was a time
1:08:04where as i was leaving my company that
1:08:08another team somewhere had decided to 15
1:08:12images that could be used in all
1:08:14marketing campaigns for the next six
1:08:16months like 15 stock images
1:08:19yeah and they said it may expand but
1:08:22this is like the set that you've got
1:08:24right now and you are asking two levels
1:08:27of creative people to work within this
1:08:30constraint that sounds pretty terrible
1:08:32yeah and I know people that work in our
1:08:33advertising agencies and this is a
1:08:35relatively similar thing that maybe like
1:08:37a so it might be the like the me and i
1:08:40know that i did this into our agencies i
1:08:42was like i gave them very prescriptive
1:08:44of guidelines of what i was looking for
1:08:46with some campaigns so even i would put
1:08:49a restriction on those great people
1:08:51mainly because I was being restricted in
1:08:53some way right its restrictions all the
1:08:56way down exactly and so this is what I'm
1:08:59you know there are places where they
1:09:01will not be the case but i know this is
1:09:03the case in a lot of areas it is for big
1:09:05company it is very rare for them to just
1:09:08do that you see it when he goes to
1:09:10disney later right
1:09:12yeah talks about how people that have
1:09:15never made movies gave mandatory notes
1:09:18and changes to the movies that they
1:09:20would see the other executives yeah that
1:09:23is terrible it is true you know so it's
1:09:25like it that shocked them one thing went
1:09:27in there of course it did because he
1:09:28thinks in a way which is not more there
1:09:30were many times in this book where I had
1:09:32to check myself because I Here Come will
1:09:35say something like he's lying
1:09:36there's no way they do that see that see
1:09:39that's very interesting it that's very
1:09:41interesting to hear you say that and I
1:09:46feel like I almost have to defer to your
1:09:48your opinion here looks like I need your
1:09:51opinion to supplant mine on this one
1:09:53right because there were so many times
1:09:54where i was reading this and I just
1:09:56because of my experience in the last few
1:09:59years and the people that I work with
1:10:01and like how I know other people run
1:10:02their team's I feel like isn't it
1:10:04obvious that if you have someone who is
1:10:05a creative person like you you let them
1:10:08run with stuff like who doesn't do that
1:10:10like what like oh wow I've got more like
1:10:12telling me the sky is blue but but it's
1:10:15that seems like i am in the wrong year
1:10:16and that i have a perspective which is
1:10:19like a tiny tiny minority of people
1:10:22working in creative fields out in the
1:10:24corporate world that this that PU you
1:10:28are coming from the decide where you
1:10:29think this is so unusual that you assume
1:10:32that the author must be lying because no
1:10:34one would run their business that way
1:10:35and I'm like duh man that anything is a
1:10:39view of mine which is obviously not the
1:10:41same for everyone but I just know that I
1:10:44went through this and I know other
1:10:45people that did like I worked with
1:10:47people who worked for other companies
1:10:48and it was the same and the i think part
1:10:51of the problem is there's always someone
1:10:53who thinks or does know better
1:10:57that's part of the problem right so it's
1:10:59like you're being told by someone this
1:11:00is how the campaign goes you know it's
1:11:02like I would consider myself as a
1:11:04creative and I would show the work to a
1:11:08product manager and then they would try
1:11:09and make changes to it and i would have
1:11:11to say that and no this is not what you
1:11:13do i was very difficult to work with and
1:11:18that but that's that's why you're here
1:11:20right now my boss really liked it and
1:11:24and it was always something that she
1:11:25brought to me to be like you stand up
1:11:27for yourself in a way that nobody else
1:11:29does
1:11:30just because I'm very minutes knows i'm
1:11:32just very principled if I believe in
1:11:34something it can be quite difficult to
1:11:35change my mind on it my mind can be
1:11:37changed but if I truly believe in
1:11:40something I will fight for and not a lot
1:11:42of people that were in my scenario did
1:11:43that is because I believed that what I
1:11:46was doing was creative work like I
1:11:48believe that that it shouldn't have just
1:11:50been prescriptive one of the reasons i
1:11:53left when i did because of the
1:11:54constrictions that were being put on
1:11:57people you know I why mention about like
1:12:00the very limited images that could be
1:12:01used right was like no I can't I can't
1:12:03do this
1:12:04this is lucas but also like it's
1:12:06interesting to hear about freedom that
1:12:10they have a Pixar and it seems like even
1:12:13in the animation world that is not a
1:12:15given that you get that I was just
1:12:17looking through my notes I think this is
1:12:18a section i highlighted here which I
1:12:20think summarizes a lot of his his points
1:12:23but he's talking about like changes that
1:12:26we made within Pixar and and basically
1:12:29he says here going forward the
1:12:32department's charter would be not to
1:12:34develop scripts but to hire good people
1:12:37to figure out what they needed to sign
1:12:39into projects and make sure they
1:12:41functioned well together
1:12:43I says we keep adjusting and fiddling
1:12:45with this model but the underlying gold
1:12:47today remains the same find develop and
1:12:50support good people and they in turn
1:12:53will find develop and own good ideas
1:12:58this actually goes right back to what we
1:13:00were just talking about if you bringing
1:13:02in people like canoe like he is talented
1:13:05and is good at what he does
1:13:09so you find people like
1:13:11that and give them the work to do and
1:13:12see what they come up with
1:13:14yeah but it's also like it's again this
1:13:17this to me is where I feel like my own
1:13:19opinion of the book is maybe not super
1:13:21relevant here but in my own field it
1:13:22seems like the kids because this this
1:13:24highlighted section that i have here
1:13:26comes after a long discussion about what
1:13:28matters like it's a good people there is
1:13:30a good ideas and he has a big
1:13:33description where he talked about like
1:13:35bringing this up in meetings and people
1:13:36are really split and that's the part
1:13:38where I felt like oh come on and cattle
1:13:40like people can't really be split over
1:13:42that like it's obvious that the people
1:13:44matter more than the ideas like know how
1:13:46you know one agrees yeah but the thing
1:13:49is like I I do recognize that i have
1:13:53some kind of bias on this but and and if
1:13:57I think about it I realized like perhaps
1:13:59the kind of compliment that I like the
1:14:02most on videos is when I see people
1:14:04leave comments where they'll say
1:14:05something like I would have expected
1:14:08that this topic is really boring or I
1:14:10thought that this would be really
1:14:11uninteresting but I like I really liked
1:14:13the video on this thing and I think
1:14:15maybe that's that's partly why I have
1:14:18this clear feeling of like it's not the
1:14:20topic that matters like I know lots of
1:14:23people who make videos on topics that
1:14:25you would think are boring but the way
1:14:29they make it is the thing that makes it
1:14:31interesting so it seems really obvious
1:14:32to me like of course people matter but
1:14:35then again if I think about it more I
1:14:37realize like all day long people want to
1:14:40pitch me on good ideas for videos to do
1:14:45and it feels like i know but is not the
1:14:46idea that matters like if the execution
1:14:48that matters so I wonder if this book
1:14:51made a real big impact on you the first
1:14:54time you read it because you have
1:14:57basically said that to me at one point
1:15:00like my kind of thinking about talented
1:15:03people came from a conversation you had
1:15:06maybe about six or so months ago we were
1:15:09talking about this about the idea of
1:15:11finding talented people and how
1:15:13difficult that can be and how useful it
1:15:14is the only said like the book made a
1:15:16bigger impact on you the first time than
1:15:19it did this time I wonder if like part
1:15:21of this stuff has been embedded into you
1:15:23and now you think it's obvious because
1:15:24you already read it well I'll tell you i
1:15:28mean here's the thing here's the thing
1:15:29for the listeners which is the short
1:15:31version of my thesis here that i have
1:15:33let's say i have discussed with many
1:15:36people in many different circumstances
1:15:38is that I i am always trying to beat the
1:15:41drum of talent is rarer than people
1:15:45think it is and that i often i often run
1:15:49up against people have some expectation
1:15:52that like there is talent just
1:15:53everywhere waiting to be found and i
1:15:55don't i do not think that is the case
1:15:57but that is a nose small part like I am
1:16:00totally aware that that idea was first
1:16:03dramatically and unwelcome Lee
1:16:07introduced into my brain through my
1:16:09years of teaching
1:16:10ah like some kids you know what ya
1:16:18little Tommy's never going to be an
1:16:21astronaut or Tommy this is a battle that
1:16:25originally came out of my teaching days
1:16:26of much against my own beliefs going
1:16:30into things like I was forced to come to
1:16:32the conclusion that like you know not
1:16:35everybody's a winner
1:16:37I like it's just this is not the way
1:16:39things are going to work and that has
1:16:40been since extended into like the
1:16:42entertainment field as we have discussed
1:16:44on previous podcast is a bit of a weird
1:16:48special case and it's like even thinking
1:16:51like reading about the early pixar stuff
1:16:54is very interesting but I was also just
1:16:56so aware of like yeah but you just
1:16:58totally lucked out with your first three
1:17:01directors like Pixar had great people
1:17:05working on those first three movies and
1:17:08if they didn't have unusually successful
1:17:11people working on those first few movies
1:17:14we wouldn't be talking about picsart
1:17:16yeah okay so yeah they did but these
1:17:21want traditional movie directors like
1:17:23they were developed by pixar discovered
1:17:27by pixar given a chance by I think it's
1:17:30completely luck
1:17:32well it's interesting because there's
1:17:33one part in the book where and camel
1:17:35addresses this exact thing where their
1:17:37first three directors
1:17:38we're not traditional directors that
1:17:41people that said was working with and
1:17:44that when they started bringing on more
1:17:46directors like he ran into this same
1:17:48thing of like I'm sure we can just like
1:17:50turn people into directors a little part
1:17:52of me is like actually you can we try to
1:17:55add it was when he talks about the whole
1:17:56part of like trying to set up a separate
1:17:58part of pics alright let that's working
1:18:01on what movie were they working on toy
1:18:03story 2 i think it was i don't remember
1:18:05what it was but but there's a few parts
1:18:07where and just like you're trying to
1:18:09read between the lines a little bit
1:18:12because and camel is is you know he's
1:18:14he's very nice talking about everybody
1:18:16but you definitely get the feeling that
1:18:17like after their first three directors
1:18:19they spent a little while I kind of
1:18:22floundering trying to bring the next
1:18:24people on it and notice the point where
1:18:25he doesn't name someone when he doesn't
1:18:28give a name is about to slam them
1:18:30doesn't he doesn't slam them but it's
1:18:33it's just like how interesting you are
1:18:36on mentioned brave director like it's
1:18:39just like who are you know there's a few
1:18:42points like that and and so I guess what
1:18:45I'm just what I'm just saying here is
1:18:47like Pixar is also in an interesting
1:18:49situation where by definition they had
1:18:52to be really lucky at the start I like
1:18:54that then that is almost true of any
1:18:56entertainment venture like you have to
1:18:59be lucky at the start and I think that
1:19:02like the interesting fundamental
1:19:03question of creativity inc like almost
1:19:06like the thesis of the book is very
1:19:09clearly like can pixar survive the
1:19:14replacement of its founding members
1:19:17right like those original people who
1:19:19were on board
1:19:20can they engineer a system that will
1:19:23outlast them i think i think that is the
1:19:26heart of the book you know I think it's
1:19:30an open question about whether or not
1:19:32they have like reading through it the
1:19:34second time I've I felt very much almost
1:19:37like less convinced that they have
1:19:41accomplished that then the first time
1:19:43reading through the book like I think
1:19:46they've given it the best of all
1:19:47possible shots but they also still
1:19:50haven't had
1:19:51a complete turnover of the original
1:19:54people working there and i was i was
1:19:56looking through some of their upcoming
1:19:57projects and it's like oh interesting
1:19:58you're bringing back Brad Bird to work
1:20:01on Incredibles 2 in future and I was
1:20:04like we won't know the answer to this
1:20:07question of will pixar outlast the
1:20:10original team or will it like Disney did
1:20:14go through like a half-century of
1:20:16wandering in the wilderness after their
1:20:18initial founder was was lost one of fine
1:20:22things right now is that Disney is
1:20:25producing better movies and pics are in
1:20:29some places i think that is also the
1:20:31interesting context of reading this book
1:20:33two years later than when I first read
1:20:35it
1:20:35yeah what was something that really
1:20:37annoys me in the book as they keep
1:20:38talking about failure like we need to
1:20:40have a fairly we need to have a failure
1:20:42but they don't address that like cause
1:20:45to yeah that is a failure but they don't
1:20:48he doesn't talk about it
1:20:49cars 2 is the huge elephant in the room
1:20:52of this book right there is because that
1:20:55movie was out and had flopped i did a
1:20:58search of the text of like did he
1:21:01mention it anywhere it like nope there
1:21:03he doesn't know reference to cars to ms
1:21:05it's really interesting because it
1:21:06throughout the whole book they're
1:21:08talking about like we haven't had a
1:21:10failure what will happen when we have a
1:21:12failure like people was scared because
1:21:15they don't want to be the one
1:21:16responsible for the first failure and I
1:21:18really wanted to hear the story of what
1:21:21happened after cause to butt in
1:21:23it just doesn't get addressed yeah I
1:21:25remember the first time i was reading
1:21:27the book I felt like this has to come up
1:21:29and it doesn't
1:21:31mhm and that's it that to me is like one
1:21:36of that one of the little pieces of like
1:21:38I feel like they're like your you have
1:21:41this big section where you're talking
1:21:43about candor and making sure everybody
1:21:45is really open about what happens and
1:21:47there's there's no shame in anything and
1:21:49yes worrying about failures and like
1:21:51you've gotta tie this together with cars
1:21:55to like but he never does right it just
1:21:58never got feel that is like the direct
1:22:00result of nice guy head
1:22:02yeah he doesn't want to throw the cause
1:22:04team on the bus in the book
1:22:06yeah and and the the other thing which
1:22:07is I i think this is more this is more
1:22:10subjective
1:22:11it's ok so here here's here's the
1:22:13running list for the movies so I made a
1:22:16note of it in the beginning so this book
1:22:18came out after pixar had made 14 movies
1:22:22so here we go right it's 1995 is where
1:22:26they start so it's toy story a bug's
1:22:28life toy story 2 monsters inc finding
1:22:30nemo the incredibles then you have cars
1:22:34at number seven in 2006 which is like
1:22:36maybe a little shaky maybe not I don't
1:22:38know then you have read a tui Wally then
1:22:42it's up in 2009 toys story three cars 22
1:22:48years before this book brave one year
1:22:51before this book and monsters university
1:22:53is the last movie that comes out before
1:22:56the book is published i gotta say like I
1:22:58think the second half of that list is
1:23:00weaker than the first half of that list
1:23:02monsters university i really like that
1:23:04one I have to say I really liked
1:23:07monsters University precisely to look at
1:23:10this we're gonna tie it back before
1:23:11because the fundamental message of
1:23:13monsters university is you can't always
1:23:14be what you want to be like sorry
1:23:16Michael kowski you were born not scary
1:23:18but you gotta figure something else out
1:23:20no amount of studying is going to make
1:23:22you scary Mike you know it's like you
1:23:24have the Dean is portrayed as the
1:23:26villain but she's not wrong like you're
1:23:28not scary and I have to say like I think
1:23:31that is quite a bold stance for a movie
1:23:33to take as like the fundamental
1:23:35storyline of like now you're not going
1:23:37to achieve your dream yes I think it's a
1:23:38good message because it's like all right
1:23:40you but there is something that you
1:23:42could be really good at you just need to
1:23:43find it accept this and move on
1:23:46yeah like I went through my own version
1:23:48of this when I was younger was like for
1:23:49a long time I want
1:23:51it to be a fiction writer like I wanted
1:23:52to write novels and I spent a lot of
1:23:56time trying to write novels and at one
1:23:59point I had to just grow up and be like
1:24:01you know what man you write some really
1:24:03good fiction like you just have to
1:24:05understand this and move on
1:24:07I don't even want to know how many
1:24:08thousands of words like I attempted to
1:24:10put out but it's like but it's an
1:24:11important moment right to recognize that
1:24:14like you're just you could spend from
1:24:16now until the end of your life trying to
1:24:18write a novel and you will never succeed
1:24:21so like recognize it and move on so I'd
1:24:24like I i like that monsters university I
1:24:26think it's a rare movie that kind of
1:24:27goes against that goes against the grain
1:24:29but it is but so the question about like
1:24:33Pixar as an entity that can survive in
1:24:37the indefinite future producing great
1:24:39movies now that the thing that we have
1:24:42to mention is even though i think the
1:24:44second half of that list is weaker than
1:24:46the first half of that list
1:24:47nonetheless like the average batting for
1:24:51his Pixar is great like that like a
1:24:53mediocre Pixar movie is better than most
1:24:56movies that are made and the hottest
1:24:58animation just get flat yeah just
1:25:00flat-out just flat-out movies but yeah
1:25:04it's just like I'm i was really i really
1:25:07felt a lot less convinced by EDD
1:25:10capitals own story about pics are like
1:25:16two years on then I was the first time I
1:25:19read it and and partly that's because
1:25:21it's like okay I haven't seen it yet but
1:25:24they put out the good dinosaur which
1:25:25didn't really get great reviews and then
1:25:28looking at their future movies it's like
1:25:30okay for the next five movies you have
1:25:34planned four of them are sequels I think
1:25:39part of this though is that there has
1:25:40been a problem with some of the secrets
1:25:42because like he talks about like three
1:25:44movies every two years
1:25:46one of them is equal to new properties
1:25:48right they haven't put out a sequel in
1:25:50awhile but they've had a bunch of new
1:25:52ones so I feel like there's been some
1:25:53production bottlenecks with the sequel's
1:25:55yeah maybe because they had like what
1:25:58brave inside out the good dinosaur right
1:26:03so those are all those are all
1:26:04new yeah and then it's going to be
1:26:07finding Dory is next
1:26:09cars three coco which is there is one
1:26:15cause three cars three they're making a
1:26:18cause
1:26:19three of three fingers with cars though
1:26:22it is a monster much and dice ella ella
1:26:26i'm sure it is and that but that's also
1:26:29where and it's the same thing with like
1:26:32monster that monsters inc like I'm sure
1:26:34it's a that's a pretty good merchandise
1:26:35one as well and actually like when he's
1:26:39talking about we don't think about the
1:26:40merchandise is like okay but like Here I
1:26:43am this does yeah like sitting here in
1:26:462016 and knowing that you're going to
1:26:49produce cars 3 and it's like I mean his
1:26:53here's the thing i want to make it
1:26:54really clear like there's nothing wrong
1:26:55with a movie studio making money off of
1:26:58merchandising like i don't i don't have
1:27:00a problem with that but it's a different
1:27:02thing when i'm reading a book about how
1:27:05great Pixar is and how Pixar is
1:27:07different and how I think quite rightly
1:27:09what one of the things that makes them
1:27:12different is not putting an emphasis on
1:27:14this stuff but now knowing that it feels
1:27:17like we're in the place with cars 3 and
1:27:19toy story 4 that the merchandise in
1:27:22really does matter
1:27:23I don't think toy story is a good
1:27:24example because there hasn't been a bad
1:27:27one and i will take a number one toy
1:27:29story 3 is arguably the best toy story
1:27:32movie you know like Ida I get it would
1:27:35cause I just think the Toy Story one is
1:27:38just like everybody just wants more toy
1:27:40story
1:27:40yeah i mean and now this is this is of
1:27:42course always a problem with movies that
1:27:43you start getting into like the realm of
1:27:44the realm of subjectivity yeah I'm sorry
1:27:4725 right there getting that we'll just
1:27:50we'll it'll be there eventually like
1:27:51jaws but so i guess like just bringing
1:27:54bringing it back i think the book is is
1:27:58interesting but I'm not sold on the
1:28:05second reading that they have actually
1:28:07solve the problem that they have aim to
1:28:10solve yet one of the things that I
1:28:13struggle with in this book is the idea
1:28:15of kin
1:28:16so basically we mentioned it already but
1:28:20if you know if you haven't read the book
1:28:21one of the tenants that they believe in
1:28:24is is people being honest to each other
1:28:27and being able to be honest about
1:28:28ramification know this is in feedback
1:28:31you know and they they enable that like
1:28:33they continue to enable that we like
1:28:34anybody can talk to anyone you don't
1:28:36have to go for a change of command and
1:28:38they call it candor because truth and
1:28:41honesty and they're too harsh words I
1:28:45just can't get on board with people
1:28:47being completely honest to each other
1:28:49and create work i do i just can't get on
1:28:52board of that I'd I just can't imagine
1:28:55people being completely honest it just
1:29:00doesn't stitch doesnt sit with me
1:29:02there might be a an idea in pixar of
1:29:05people being more honest and then dead
1:29:08but i can't imagine someone saying to
1:29:12somebody that they really don't like a
1:29:14piece of work and the majority of people
1:29:15that work at Pixar being able to accept
1:29:17that what is brush it off and move on
1:29:20it can't work everywhere just conks
1:29:22people humans and the f emotions and
1:29:24emotions get hurt
1:29:25it would say that's where I think that
1:29:27some of the best stuff in the book is is
1:29:30his harping repeatedly on the idea then
1:29:34creative work you should not associate
1:29:36yourself with the creative work right
1:29:38maybe like if you live in pixar you can
1:29:42do this but i don't think that this is
1:29:45an easy thing to do to have people like
1:29:48maybe you know they they talk about it
1:29:50work on it so much inside of pixar that
1:29:53it works but I just struggle to see it
1:29:56like that
1:29:57this is where I think he is trying to
1:30:00convince the reader of an idea that is
1:30:02not the normal idea
1:30:04yeah i'll definitely and so we get in in
1:30:06my experience in all of my working
1:30:07experience with other people people are
1:30:11impossible to separate from their ideas
1:30:14like someone comes up with a dumb idea
1:30:16for how they want to change the
1:30:18curriculum next quarter and if you
1:30:20attack that idea they take it as an
1:30:22attack on them and it's like a
1:30:24christ-like can we talk about the thing
1:30:27like we're not talking about you
1:30:29I get that is a a far too prevalent
1:30:33natural human reaction but i think it's
1:30:36like that's what I really like in this
1:30:37book is him just repeatedly hammering on
1:30:40this and this might be my bias of like
1:30:44believing it can't be true but you know
1:30:47like because it does it really I think
1:30:50anybody that works we have creative
1:30:53people can see how far-fetched are
1:30:55difficult an idea this seems to be
1:30:57because people do get upset
1:31:00yeah but you can't produce really good
1:31:04stuff if you are associating yourself
1:31:06with the idea and you know again with
1:31:10with people i know like everybody is
1:31:12kind of an agreement that you know like
1:31:14the negative feedback is the feedback
1:31:15that is valuable
1:31:17like if you if you are making stuff for
1:31:18the internet and you're making stuff for
1:31:21people to enjoy you have to pay
1:31:24attention to negative feedback in the
1:31:26production process I get super super
1:31:29valuable no matter how much it hurts
1:31:32yet no matter how much it hurts because
1:31:33it's gonna hurt more when everybody
1:31:35laughs at you right here like all this
1:31:37thing is terrible
1:31:38like it's just that is just the way that
1:31:42it it it has to to work
1:31:45I just think as my friend derek has said
1:31:47like the value of positive feedback
1:31:49trends towards zero and so when you know
1:31:52when you're talking about someone's work
1:31:54it's like okay you open with like oh
1:31:55yeah I like this I like this right but
1:31:57very quickly you get three positive
1:31:59comments in and it's like okay but now
1:32:00these positive comments are worthless
1:32:01and like let's get down to brass tacks
1:32:03and tell me what's terrible
1:32:04yeah because like that that's what i
1:32:05really want to know like we had a nice
1:32:07little polite opening but now let's like
1:32:09let's really get to business and so I
1:32:12think a lot of the stuff that he talks
1:32:13about in pixar with this idea of trying
1:32:16to set up what he calls this brain trust
1:32:19where people are reviewing the movie and
1:32:22trying to evaluate it as a thing
1:32:25separate from the person who has created
1:32:28it and talk about what is the problems
1:32:31with this movie not like what is the
1:32:33problem with your movie i think that is
1:32:37valuable valuable stuff for anybody who
1:32:42works on
1:32:43on a team and creative work I I like I
1:32:46have definitely recommended creativity
1:32:47ink to a lot of people and seems to get
1:32:50interesting feedback from people saying
1:32:51like oh yes this is quite valuable to
1:32:53think about like really try hard to make
1:32:56it explicit in feedback sessions that we
1:32:58are discussing the thing we're not
1:33:01discussing the the people and like that
1:33:04is that is the most important thing that
1:33:06you can do but I still just like my
1:33:09little asterisk in my brain about this
1:33:10is it still just falls back about like
1:33:12the most important thing that was that
1:33:15you have good people on that brain trust
1:33:17like there's there's no he talks about
1:33:19systems and all the rest of it i guess
1:33:21thats that's useful but like ultimately
1:33:24you need some really good people on that
1:33:25brain trust like that is the thing that
1:33:28makes it work and that's that's what I
1:33:31wonder about like Pixar trying to put in
1:33:33systems for the future is like okay yes
1:33:36but what happens when those original
1:33:38teams are are no longer there like your
1:33:41brings about the words of the brain
1:33:42trust those so the brain trust is a
1:33:44group inside of pixar of that ranges
1:33:47across the company of people that seem
1:33:50to have a real good grasp on developing
1:33:52stories
1:33:53mhm and these people get together and
1:33:56they review the work that's being
1:33:58produced and help unstick a movie and
1:34:02while they may be helped develop a story
1:34:04that isn't working or can those you know
1:34:06that that really are working they offer
1:34:09candid feedback to each other and
1:34:13there's this as he says sometimes the
1:34:14braintrust doesn't necessarily fix a
1:34:16problem but it might highlight something
1:34:18that isn't working
1:34:20hmm this is the best thing for me to
1:34:24take away from the book and I can't
1:34:27remember where i first heard this but it
1:34:30in the internet circles that I have
1:34:32running in the past there has always
1:34:33been a phrase of your board of directors
1:34:35which I've always really latched onto is
1:34:38like a group of people that you think
1:34:40are important to you and that you value
1:34:42their opinions that you trust and get
1:34:46feedback from
1:34:48used to help further your work
1:34:52mm so I've always had a foreign land at
1:34:54the people who i will send work to get
1:34:57feedback but what I've been thinking
1:34:59about is how could real laugh and be
1:35:03more like pigs are aiming high like and
1:35:06no but like from a structure perspective
1:35:09so who I've been trying to like to still
1:35:11what they are and to still what we are
1:35:14and seeing how there are similarities in
1:35:18that it's like a production company that
1:35:22helps produce and grow different
1:35:25properties like that's why I tried to
1:35:27like take it right down to the very
1:35:28basics and then try to think about it
1:35:30from there so like I thinking if we
1:35:32don't really do so much let's say we
1:35:34wanted to create a new show we don't
1:35:38really go very deep into like somebody
1:35:41has an idea and then we like really
1:35:42developer like there is an element of it
1:35:45by me like months of water can like
1:35:48month you know pilots and then we scrap
1:35:50the idea and we start over like that
1:35:52like real intense work doesn't really
1:35:57happen
1:35:58I don't know anybody that does what I do
1:36:01that really looks at it in that way so I
1:36:04wonder like what the value is something
1:36:06like that would be and having a group of
1:36:08people that would work on a new project
1:36:10together like that and not even that
1:36:12they're necessarily involved in the
1:36:13production but involved in like the
1:36:15judging and development of it i just
1:36:17think like how interesting that could be
1:36:19that's one of the things that is now
1:36:22rattling around in my brain a lot is
1:36:24like this brain trust idea helping
1:36:28develop and produce a show what that
1:36:30could look like and I think it could be
1:36:33quite an ambitious project to work on
1:36:34like a like a brain trust for podcasts
1:36:38are yakking yeah interesting idea to
1:36:42either is like it's just something has
1:36:44been rattling around in my brain is like
1:36:46a how could we try and think more like
1:36:50that because you know it's it's very
1:36:52different but when really kind of
1:36:55stripped back to its essentials not
1:36:59crazily different in what
1:37:01misto them pics are works very
1:37:05differently to my old company the idea
1:37:09of honesty trust people making
1:37:10themselves accountable or spear
1:37:12respectful of time not living in fear an
1:37:14actual desire to teach people not just
1:37:16tick boxes those things are all the
1:37:20complete opposite of the environment i
1:37:23worked in and you know environments that
1:37:25I know other people walked in
1:37:27who and I'm sure that pixar isn't
1:37:30perfect but it really feels like they
1:37:34try their best to create a company that
1:37:36tries to his best of people who I've
1:37:40really felt that
1:37:42yeah it is it is definitely it
1:37:46definitely comes through that if that is
1:37:49the case in the book like that they want
1:37:52to create an environment where people
1:37:57can try to achieve their best i think
1:37:59that i think that is that is pretty
1:38:01obvious from the way the book is written
1:38:02that that is that is what their their
1:38:05goal is like like I I like the part
1:38:08where they talk about the pixar shorts
1:38:12that they put together as an example of
1:38:14like somebody has an idea like let's
1:38:17just let's just let them go with it like
1:38:19some just go ahead and produce a short
1:38:21and how they very consciously don't
1:38:23think of those shorts as commercial
1:38:25endeavours they tried to didn't a like
1:38:28they're tried to think all this could be
1:38:29a way to help develop our technology and
1:38:32then realized very quickly that they
1:38:34don't do that they don't help at all
1:38:35that just cost you money and don't do
1:38:37anything right they just they just cost
1:38:39money and time and people and yeah it's
1:38:42like it is there's no line on a
1:38:44spreadsheet which justifies those shorts
1:38:47but that they have some some ambiguous
1:38:50difficult to pin down feeling that
1:38:52allowing people to work on those short
1:38:54creative projects is worthwhile and so
1:38:57they do it even though there is no
1:38:58business justification for whatsoever
1:39:01I think like that is a that is precisely
1:39:03the kind of thing that I think is a
1:39:05great sign from a company and wood wood
1:39:09for me be in the future like a huge red
1:39:11flag of pixar ever stop doing shorts
1:39:14like mm okay yeah that's a that's a big
1:39:18fat slow fish in a barrel to shoot if
1:39:21you are a bean-counter yeah like that's
1:39:24the obvious thing to shoot and they're
1:39:25like its absence would be quite notable
1:39:27if they ever if they ever stop doing
1:39:28that
1:39:29it's like he says at one point kind of
1:39:31the idea that you can measure things but
1:39:34be okay with the fact that you can't
1:39:36completely measure everything
1:39:38yeah yeah and this is one of those
1:39:39things yes without a doubt that that is
1:39:42that is definitely that was definitely
1:39:43the case my favorite part of the book is
1:39:47the part I think it's like part 4 which
1:39:50is the disney-pixar merger and because
1:39:54what it does is throughout the whole
1:39:56book they're talking about the things
1:39:58that they do and the things that they
1:39:59believe in and how they think that
1:40:01things that they do can help build a
1:40:02great company and then this was the case
1:40:04study moving out more and last i had to
1:40:07go into disney and make disney work more
1:40:10like Pixar blue and see if it helped and
1:40:14it did
1:40:15yeah yeah but there i think it's it's
1:40:17pretty easy to say that that the
1:40:21excellent out proof rhesus right and it
1:40:25also has the like the interesting mirror
1:40:27of almost like a reverse merger in the
1:40:29same way that apple bought next and he's
1:40:31like yeah what did you like favoring mix
1:40:33took over apple exactly i mean and who
1:40:35was responsible because those yeah
1:40:38exists it's like steve jobs like oh hi
1:40:40Steve Jobs showing up again like this
1:40:42exact same maneuver role and there is
1:40:44definitely a feeling like did disney by
1:40:49pixar I legally yes but it certainly
1:40:52feels like Disney has been very pics are
1:40:57five
1:40:57yes why it's a merger and acquisition
1:41:00yeah you know they bet the the smaller
1:41:03companies leaders came in and run the
1:41:05new team right
1:41:07yeah it's yeah it's it's it's
1:41:08interesting it's interesting to see it's
1:41:11interesting to see but it also does it
1:41:14like gives us this funny feeling of like
1:41:16his Pixar as ahead as they used to be
1:41:18like maybe not but it's also like
1:41:20entirely their fault someplace with
1:41:22Disney like I just need seems to be
1:41:24making much better stuff than they used
1:41:26to
1:41:27you know getting out of the wilderness
1:41:29finally with their ownership of pixar so
1:41:32i gotta say i think i've really enjoyed
1:41:34this book i enjoyed it from an
1:41:35entertainment perspective I found it
1:41:38very very interesting just to hear the
1:41:40story but there were things in it that
1:41:42really i have pulled out like the idea
1:41:44of the brain trust and thinking about
1:41:46what that looks like for me and the idea
1:41:49of thinking about people with talent
1:41:51thinking about giving people the ability
1:41:53to do work like there are a lot of
1:41:55things in this book that really i think
1:41:59i'm going to put a lot more fall into
1:42:01I'm and there are still things from
1:42:03email but I think about that you're
1:42:05genuinely and there are still things
1:42:06that we need to do want to do for our
1:42:09business that would spoke about in that
1:42:11book there is benefit in these books and
1:42:13I hope that we're able to distill these
1:42:15down for people if they don't want to
1:42:17take the time to listen to these to our
1:42:18book I have to say one of the biggest
1:42:21things from either from this is Pixar
1:42:23has now joined the very small group of
1:42:26companies that i would take a job i
1:42:29don't think i would there's a job for me
1:42:30at Pixar but listening to their culture
1:42:34and the way that they work like I could
1:42:36I could work in that could work in a
1:42:38culture that's high praise indeed
1:42:40what are the other companies on that
1:42:41list cards against humanity ok and field
1:42:45notes and field notes
1:42:47ok alright that seems that seems very
1:42:50Mike list of places that places that he
1:42:53would he would work
1:42:54yeah like I think people like Apple I
1:42:58don't know if I could do it now why
1:43:00would want to work at Apple don't know
1:43:02if I could do it i don't know if i would
1:43:04want to be as quiet as they would tend
1:43:06to be too much pressure major secrecy
1:43:08like I'm very I'm very grateful for the
1:43:10people who do work at Apple but I think
1:43:12like that's a the the tough path
1:43:17perhaps in in life that I i would not
1:43:21take a job at Pixar i would i would do
1:43:24voice work for Pixar no but I would
1:43:26never ever take a job at Pixar I don't
1:43:29think that would that would be what I
1:43:31would do like I'm pretty happy with my
1:43:32my one-man totally unscalable
1:43:36frustrating in some ways but incredibly
1:43:40liberty
1:43:40being in other ways business there's a
1:43:43couple of final point just looking
1:43:45through looking through my notes with
1:43:47some of which were double highlighted
1:43:49from me from two years ago with me from
1:43:50now one of the things which is a point
1:43:53often reiterated and creative work but i
1:43:56think is always always useful to
1:43:57emphasize is a capital talks about the
1:44:01baby like the ugly baby and how the
1:44:04early drafts of all creative work are
1:44:06horrifying I like they're not they're
1:44:09not good to look at that they take a lot
1:44:12of they take a lot of work to go through
1:44:14and perhaps one of the things that I
1:44:15like the best in the book was him going
1:44:18through what some of the movie and
1:44:22looked like before they became the movie
1:44:24so valuable
1:44:25yeah and I think up was a great example
1:44:27of that where he goes throughout the
1:44:29Gospels are like the you know it's like
1:44:33that the first the first version was all
1:44:35about like a magical ostrich and it's
1:44:37like what I'm like okay but but they go
1:44:40through like here were the three or four
1:44:42iterations of up before we settled on on
1:44:45what the eventual story would be and
1:44:47monsters inc as well was really
1:44:49interesting for ya monsters inc was was
1:44:52essentially like like the delusions of a
1:44:54paranoid schizophrenic like that like
1:44:56that was that was draft one of monsters
1:44:58inc i feel like the idea of the
1:45:00inside-out came from the original draft
1:45:03of monsters inc
1:45:05yeah you could maybe you could maybe see
1:45:06like a marriage between those two
1:45:08but i canna monsters die it's like how
1:45:10like this guy can see monsters and they
1:45:14are like his feelings and his emotions
1:45:17and his problems following him around as
1:45:19monsters and then the idea the end of
1:45:22the movie is he feels better his life
1:45:24gets better and the monsters go away and
1:45:26a sec I can't see the killing the
1:45:28monsters which is what the kids would
1:45:30relate to because I'm sure there'll be
1:45:31fun looking monsters right yeah it's
1:45:34like I don't understand how you could
1:45:35ever think that this was going to work
1:45:37but but like that is the whole point of
1:45:39it is that when you go through the first
1:45:41drafts when you are creating something
1:45:44it's not always obvious that the thing
1:45:46is terrible like but it doesn't matter
1:45:48like just get the idea out and then
1:45:49we'll just we'll just work on this
1:45:51and and so we only talked about how it's
1:45:53like we like the monsters we don't
1:45:55really like the main character like what
1:45:56can we do with the monsters and and they
1:45:58go through all these different
1:45:58variations of like oh maybe we can have
1:46:01this character called boo and she's like
1:46:03a like a angry teenager is like I don't
1:46:05know it's better if she's a toddler like
1:46:07I think it is useful to see some
1:46:09examples of how things change like how
1:46:12they go from being awful to how they go
1:46:14to being better like if you do any kind
1:46:16of creative work it's always useful to
1:46:18hear that kind of stuff to be like wow
1:46:20it was terrible in the beginning this
1:46:22makes me feel better about mine terrible
1:46:24first version of of whatever it is that
1:46:27i'm working on so you know is his
1:46:29version of this is called I know the
1:46:31ugly baby that this is the idea that
1:46:33like they're all ugly in the beginning
1:46:35some of them will grow up to be great
1:46:37but not all of them and the other the
1:46:41other thing which really struck out to
1:46:43me in this in this reading of it which
1:46:46didn't strike me so much the first time
1:46:47was his flip side of the ugly baby is
1:46:51what he talked calls the beast and he
1:46:54talks about feeding the Beast where you
1:46:58as a company end up creating this
1:47:03pressure for you to keep producing stuff
1:47:05and he talks about how you start having
1:47:08all of these fixed costs like you have
1:47:12employees and you have buildings and you
1:47:14have electrical bills and all of this is
1:47:17the Beast that will just eat you alive
1:47:20unless you keep producing stuff and I
1:47:23think there's a very interesting section
1:47:25where he talks about from his
1:47:26perspective it was partly like the Beast
1:47:28that ate up Disney that they became very
1:47:32concerned about like we have to just
1:47:34constantly keep pushing movies out and
1:47:37that like the the the Beast is this
1:47:40thing which if you will let it will try
1:47:43to like chain you to an assembly-line
1:47:45schedule of like we've got to have a
1:47:47movie out every six months like go go go
1:47:49because we have all these animators and
1:47:51we have to pay them and I thought good
1:47:53it's a really interesting thing to keep
1:47:56in mind and obviously as a person who's
1:47:59not super fan of schedules like aye aye
1:48:03aye
1:48:04align with that idea very much but
1:48:07particularly caught me this time because
1:48:09at least in my own personal experiences
1:48:11like I am aware that you know have
1:48:15having been self-employed for four years
1:48:16now that i have slowly but surely built
1:48:20up more of my own beast than I had even
1:48:24the first time I read this book when I
1:48:25was like oh yeah the Beast ok whatever
1:48:27this is like an interesting idea but now
1:48:29I really feel this idea of like oh god I
1:48:32do have fixed costs like and I do have
1:48:35people that I work with who I pay and
1:48:37like I have these expenses with like an
1:48:39assistant and with lawyers and with
1:48:41stock footage and like this office that
1:48:43I'm renting and like all of this kind of
1:48:45stuff and that was just it was useful to
1:48:48read that and just keep in mind like
1:48:49with many of these books the utility is
1:48:52putting a word to with thing it's useful
1:48:55to have this idea of like the Beast and
1:48:57you have to keep the beast at bay
1:48:59I can see it's provide some motivation
1:49:01but you you can't let it become the
1:49:04controlling factor and you can't let it
1:49:06like chain you into the like tricking
1:49:09you into just producing stuff just to
1:49:11get something out the door so that you
1:49:13have money coming in to pay your fixed
1:49:14costs because as he points out like if
1:49:17you get into that cycle the more
1:49:20successful you are like the bigger the
1:49:22Beast will get like the more expenses
1:49:24you'll start incurring which then just
1:49:26pushes you to produce even more low
1:49:28quality stuff just to get things out the
1:49:30door so yes it's a especially in the
1:49:34last couple months which have been
1:49:35unusually expensive for me like that
1:49:37really that really struck home in the in
1:49:39the second reading of the book so last
1:49:41time we told you not to read email
1:49:44freezes revisited um and I maintain
1:49:47begging you not to do but i would
1:49:51recommend people read this book I think
1:49:54it's very interesting i think there's
1:49:55stuff that you should listen to we
1:49:58didn't I don't think we covered every
1:49:59all of the lessons we definitely didn't
1:50:01cover all the lessons that are in this
1:50:03book
1:50:04there might be things that resonate with
1:50:05you more than they did with me and grey
1:50:07I ice i recommend reading creative tank
1:50:10yeah i'm going to definitely second
1:50:14recommend the book as i mentioned like
1:50:16there were things I didn't like as much
1:50:17the same
1:50:18in time around the small small pic i
1:50:21really don't like the the narrator for
1:50:23the audiobook I had an area
1:50:25oh man ok can we talk about that for
1:50:27just a split second he's not as bad as a
1:50:29previous narrator but I just I don't
1:50:32like I don't like his voice I don't like
1:50:33the way it sounds
1:50:34I don't know what at capital sounds like
1:50:36I have no idea but the narrator is like
1:50:38okay so I kept having this feeling that
1:50:41the narrator is basically like an
1:50:43over-enthusiastic grandpa who's telling
1:50:47you stories that should be interesting
1:50:49but it's his very enthusiasm and the way
1:50:52he is emphasizing stuff that makes it an
1:50:55interesting so it's like oh you're
1:50:57telling me stories from about when you
1:50:58used to work with walt disney in the
1:50:59nineteen-twenties grandpa but like
1:51:01you're over
1:51:03I don't know / friendly way it's just
1:51:05like killing any interest in the story
1:51:07like this one point where like the
1:51:09author is reading about like a car crash
1:51:10that capitalism is like you can't use
1:51:13the same voice the same like super
1:51:15over-friendly old man voice to do this
1:51:18part of the story is there not a fan not
1:51:21a fan of the of the narrator for the
1:51:23audiobook so maybe i would read this i
1:51:25know you don't read books Mike but I
1:51:27read it the first time didn't like the
1:51:29didn't like the narrator for the
1:51:30audiobook I think it does suffer a
1:51:35little bit of what i think of as the the
1:51:39DVD extra problem where everyone is
1:51:42always talking about how great everybody
1:51:44else is to work with and so there are
1:51:46there are many things was just here to
1:51:48take me in the book where is like Ed
1:51:50Catmull I cannot read another
1:51:52description where you are talking about
1:51:53how amazing and ingenious and bold the
1:51:56idea for this next movie is like I can't
1:52:00deal with that anymore man like there's
1:52:01just too much of it so that kind of
1:52:03graded on me after a while but those
1:52:06things aside I have recommended this
1:52:08book many times over the years since i
1:52:11first read it and for anybody working on
1:52:14the team I would definitely continue to
1:52:16recommend it so creativity inc check it
1:52:18out