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H.I. #56: Guns, Germs, and Steel


00:00:00   look at that posh classy drinking water [TS]

00:00:01   from you are partially cushions man look [TS]

00:00:04   at you you look like a millionaire [TS]

00:00:06   I because i'm drinking water and [TS]

00:00:08   overwatch collapse yeah this is what [TS]

00:00:12   millionaires do baby they drink water [TS]

00:00:14   out of wine glasses in my look at me [TS]

00:00:16   with my twenty percent bigger Pepsi's [TS]

00:00:18   ready to get you said impatiently [TS]

00:00:21   haven't even started [TS]

00:00:22   it's all in your mind Brady I have [TS]

00:00:25   nothing but an infinite well of patience [TS]

00:00:29   for you my friend [TS]

00:00:30   infinite well of patients you are quite [TS]

00:00:33   patient guy I'll give you that [TS]

00:00:34   yeah for you and you know I think I [TS]

00:00:37   think you have more patient person than [TS]

00:00:39   me in general you have to be gentle with [TS]

00:00:41   me today because I have been very sick [TS]

00:00:42   for the last week and a half stick with [TS]

00:00:44   what someone appropriate because I think [TS]

00:00:46   we're going to be talking about plagues [TS]

00:00:48   and boxes later on i am very full of [TS]

00:00:51   plague in boxes today this this will [TS]

00:00:53   give you some ideas to the gravity of [TS]

00:00:55   how sick of bein little I went to the [TS]

00:00:57   doctor say this only means something [TS]

00:00:59   because i know you and I know that you [TS]

00:01:02   seem to have some sort of stubbornness [TS]

00:01:05   about going to the doctor when you're [TS]

00:01:07   sick which I don't understand its code [TS]

00:01:09   being a man is it called being a man or [TS]

00:01:12   is it called being dumped I go to the [TS]

00:01:13   doctor when i'm sick if I think I need [TS]

00:01:15   to go to the doctor I don't understand [TS]

00:01:17   this reluctance to go to the doctor this [TS]

00:01:18   is the nub there you set up when I need [TS]

00:01:21   to go to the doctor when does one you [TS]

00:01:23   need to go to the doctor this is the [TS]

00:01:25   million-dollar question [TS]

00:01:27   ok what is your level then for you need [TS]

00:01:31   to go to the doctor [TS]

00:01:32   close to death okay see that seems [TS]

00:01:35   cutting it too close braiding I think [TS]

00:01:38   ninety-nine percent of the time when you [TS]

00:01:39   go to the doctor they just say our go [TS]

00:01:41   away and come back in a week if you're [TS]

00:01:43   still sick and I and that happens to me [TS]

00:01:45   all the time and then I go away for a [TS]

00:01:47   weekend in a week or so I get better and [TS]

00:01:49   so I never go back so i I just I hate [TS]

00:01:52   going to the doctor because I know that [TS]

00:01:53   it's going to tell me [TS]

00:01:54   ik yeah you're a bit sick but come back [TS]

00:01:56   in awake [TS]

00:01:57   it drives me crazy yeah yeah I [TS]

00:01:59   understand that because most of the time [TS]

00:02:01   you just have the some sort of normal [TS]

00:02:03   called like if I have what feels like a [TS]

00:02:06   normal cold i won't go to the doctor [TS]

00:02:08   but if it's much beyond normal cold or [TS]

00:02:11   if it lasts longer than it seems like a [TS]

00:02:14   normal cold should then you go to the dr [TS]

00:02:16   abdullah great you don't go to the [TS]

00:02:17   doctor if you wake up and you go with my [TS]

00:02:18   little stiffly today let me see what the [TS]

00:02:20   doc has to say about this [TS]

00:02:22   yeah you don't need to have your marker [TS]

00:02:24   be near death [TS]

00:02:26   yeah to to be the when do you need to go [TS]

00:02:29   to the doctor phase [TS]

00:02:31   how's this though I went to the GPA and [TS]

00:02:33   I went into that went into the room and [TS]

00:02:36   then she said okay what's wrong and I've [TS]

00:02:38   had a few other little things you know [TS]

00:02:39   ongoing things that I thought this is a [TS]

00:02:41   chance to bring them up things i don't i [TS]

00:02:43   had gone to the doctor but I thought oh [TS]

00:02:45   you know kill a few birds with one stone [TS]

00:02:47   here right so i sat down and said I've [TS]

00:02:50   got a few things for you actually [TS]

00:02:51   and she said well you've got less than [TS]

00:02:54   10 minutes and I'm already running like [TS]

00:02:55   how's that for care what if I was dying [TS]

00:02:57   this is how triage works pretty [TS]

00:02:59   depending on what you go in there with [TS]

00:03:01   they might decide that you need to be [TS]

00:03:04   escalated up to the next level [TS]

00:03:05   yeah yeah you need you need to go to the [TS]

00:03:07   doctor you never know what it is you [TS]

00:03:08   know it might be you might think you [TS]

00:03:10   just have a regular flu but then you go [TS]

00:03:13   to the doctor and you find out oh you [TS]

00:03:14   might have you might have died from [TS]

00:03:16   meningitis [TS]

00:03:17   that's the kind of scaremongering that [TS]

00:03:18   makes people go to the doctor too much [TS]

00:03:20   i'm not scare mongering this isn't [TS]

00:03:22   scaremongering and this is also this is [TS]

00:03:24   for the for the triage thing right you [TS]

00:03:26   have a quick meeting with the doctor [TS]

00:03:27   they're just trying to determine always [TS]

00:03:29   something more serious or less serious [TS]

00:03:32   and and it should be eighty percent of [TS]

00:03:34   the time that it's something less [TS]

00:03:36   seriously than ninety percent the time [TS]

00:03:37   that it's something less serious it [TS]

00:03:39   would be quite remarkable [TS]

00:03:40   if everyone who went into the doctor had [TS]

00:03:42   the most serious thing that they [TS]

00:03:43   possibly could [TS]

00:03:44   the doctor is a filter and the vast [TS]

00:03:47   majority of the time it should come back [TS]

00:03:48   saying it's not a big deal [TS]

00:03:50   you're fine but you're there to catch [TS]

00:03:52   the freak occurrences that could kill [TS]

00:03:54   you [TS]

00:03:54   yeah this is good advice people follow [TS]

00:03:56   cries and vast variety is it is this is [TS]

00:03:58   this is from someone who works in a [TS]

00:04:00   school I can and yeah had students died [TS]

00:04:03   of meningitis like you think it's the [TS]

00:04:05   flu and is not spam dead so go to the [TS]

00:04:08   doctor [TS]

00:04:09   don't be a brady i really wanted [TS]

00:04:10   antibiotics because basically I was told [TS]

00:04:13   to get antibiotics go to the doctor and [TS]

00:04:15   get antibiotics so that was my whole and [TS]

00:04:17   they hate giving you they hate [TS]

00:04:18   prescribing [TS]

00:04:20   maybe you doing everything in a way [TS]

00:04:21   that's infuriating so you don't want to [TS]

00:04:23   go to the doctor but when you do you're [TS]

00:04:25   the guy who's going to believe the [TS]

00:04:26   doctor into giving you antibiotics you [TS]

00:04:28   only take antibiotics at the dr things [TS]

00:04:30   that you should you don't believe the [TS]

00:04:32   doctor into this I basically said if you [TS]

00:04:34   don't give me antibiotics today I'm [TS]

00:04:36   probably gonna get divorced and she [TS]

00:04:38   laughed and said I've never heard that [TS]

00:04:39   one before and then prescribe [TS]

00:04:40   antibiotics i don't i don't want them i [TS]

00:04:46   don't care i was just trying to grease [TS]

00:04:48   the windows are you taking the [TS]

00:04:50   antibiotics then I am so you so you [TS]

00:04:52   don't even think you need them and [TS]

00:04:53   you're taking man and I i do your part [TS]

00:04:56   of the problem [TS]

00:04:56   no I don't need them i do need them have [TS]

00:04:59   been sick for too long and and if you [TS]

00:05:01   think the doctor would have given them [TS]

00:05:03   to you if you hadn't turned on the Brady [TS]

00:05:05   charm i would not say she was charmed by [TS]

00:05:07   me [TS]

00:05:08   I think she gave them cuz she thought I [TS]

00:05:10   needed them you know she looked at me [TS]

00:05:11   and lived in my throat and said I was [TS]

00:05:13   sick and I told her you know I told a [TS]

00:05:16   story but another habit of my know that [TS]

00:05:18   will probably infuriate you is whenever [TS]

00:05:20   I go to the doctor and get prescribed [TS]

00:05:22   whatever I'm is needed i almost feel [TS]

00:05:24   like that's job done and I've [TS]

00:05:25   accomplished what needed to be [TS]

00:05:26   accomplished and I quite often don't [TS]

00:05:28   like the actual process of been taking [TS]

00:05:29   all the medicine and doing all the [TS]

00:05:31   things the doctor said it's almost like [TS]

00:05:33   walking out of the dr being told yes [TS]

00:05:35   you're sick and this is what you've got [TS]

00:05:36   to do almost feels like the Cure like [TS]

00:05:38   okay that's that's dealt with and the [TS]

00:05:40   actual sitting there and taking all [TS]

00:05:42   those pills for a week and a half his [TS]

00:05:43   idea of a grind and i usually get the [TS]

00:05:46   airport but I can also understand a [TS]

00:05:48   little bit that feeling because it's [TS]

00:05:50   been like if you bring your car into the [TS]

00:05:52   auto shop when you pick up your car like [TS]

00:05:54   a great everything's done but they don't [TS]

00:05:56   prescribe you a course of activity to do [TS]

00:05:58   with your car over the course of two [TS]

00:06:00   weeks exactly i can understand that [TS]

00:06:02   feeling like haven't I been serviced so [TS]

00:06:05   that I have now fixed isn't this what is [TS]

00:06:07   this exactly but that's not what it is [TS]

00:06:09   you have to take the pills and the [TS]

00:06:12   numbers of people who follow through on [TS]

00:06:15   taking their antibiotics course through [TS]

00:06:17   to the end is always appallingly low is [TS]

00:06:20   a this is a common problem is a non [TS]

00:06:22   compliance rates for medication taking [TS]

00:06:25   our justice down dingley hi it's a [TS]

00:06:28   miracle they get anything done with [TS]

00:06:29   these these trucks but you're going to [TS]

00:06:32   finish your course of antibiotics Brady [TS]

00:06:34   should do i need to pester you about it [TS]

00:06:35   I'll Phoenician I'm glad it wasn't [TS]

00:06:38   anything major [TS]

00:06:38   and you found out that it doesn't keep [TS]

00:06:41   you up at night wondering if you're [TS]

00:06:43   going to die of a exotic disease [TS]

00:06:45   thank you thank you for caring i do care [TS]

00:06:48   ready you do whenever I'm sick you do [TS]

00:06:50   get a little bit [TS]

00:06:51   mumsy that is slanderous that is [TS]

00:06:53   slanderous sir you're very mothering [TS]

00:06:56   when i'm sick [TS]

00:06:57   well I don't want to put any strain on [TS]

00:06:59   you that would cause you to be ill for [TS]

00:07:01   further amount of time my wife is [TS]

00:07:02   currently at home from work from exactly [TS]

00:07:04   this thing of overstraining herself at [TS]

00:07:06   work when she wasn't fully well and [TS]

00:07:08   going in and I'm like no no you need to [TS]

00:07:10   stay home until you're better [TS]

00:07:11   and so that's how I feel about you break [TS]

00:07:13   no no we don't have to do the podcast [TS]

00:07:14   until you're better [TS]

00:07:15   the people can wait but you are of [TS]

00:07:18   course you like to say hard as nails and [TS]

00:07:20   you just want to soldier on through no [TS]

00:07:23   matter what have we got any follow-up [TS]

00:07:25   from the last episode I came it was it [TS]

00:07:27   the last episode was it a good episode i [TS]

00:07:29   remember i think what we talked about [TS]

00:07:31   was whatever we talked about on the [TS]

00:07:32   previous buy gas [TS]

00:07:33   okay it looks like we have no follow-up [TS]

00:07:36   of substance then now what we have to [TS]

00:07:38   dive into is you apparently have another [TS]

00:07:41   breathtaking installment of corporate [TS]

00:07:45   compensation corner [TS]

00:07:46   well i'm going to blame me for this week [TS]

00:07:49   we have delayed corporate a compensation [TS]

00:07:52   corner for so long now that I've built [TS]

00:07:55   up so much possible material a half that [TS]

00:07:58   I don't really know where the staff I [TS]

00:08:00   can't imagine why anyone would ever [TS]

00:08:01   delay delay corporate compensation [TS]

00:08:03   corner and I we should we should laugh [TS]

00:08:06   put out flash podcast whenever what [TS]

00:08:07   happens when an instant like we go [TS]

00:08:09   straight to press I'll tell you the one [TS]

00:08:10   I'm like I'm looking at four bullet [TS]

00:08:12   points here i'll tell you the one that [TS]

00:08:13   that's drawing my attention straightaway [TS]

00:08:15   corporate compensation corner massage [TS]

00:08:17   edition [TS]

00:08:18   ok was awhile ago now but we had a [TS]

00:08:21   little holiday down in down Devon way [TS]

00:08:24   I'm staying a nice place and it was one [TS]

00:08:26   of these come and we went to one of [TS]

00:08:27   these [TS]

00:08:29   you know beauties treatments part I [TS]

00:08:31   places that we quite like I into as a [TS]

00:08:33   couple and you have nice food and then [TS]

00:08:35   they you know you see in a jacuzzi and [TS]

00:08:38   stuff out there and then you have to get [TS]

00:08:39   your numbers on your eyes breeding [TS]

00:08:41   cucumbers and that kind of thing and we [TS]

00:08:43   went we went for the we went for this [TS]

00:08:45   sort of new agey type massage thing and [TS]

00:08:48   it was really funny because one of those [TS]

00:08:49   things where they like you know you do a [TS]

00:08:52   questionnaire and they decide what your [TS]

00:08:54   energies air and what all these sort of [TS]

00:08:55   things and and it's like it seems like a [TS]

00:08:58   load of rubbish what I filled out the [TS]

00:08:59   questionnaire and then i sat down with [TS]

00:09:00   my message one minute she said okay I [TS]

00:09:03   see your questionnaire and that's what I [TS]

00:09:05   know about you and she and I was like [TS]

00:09:06   she was psychic she said all these [TS]

00:09:07   things about me like about how I work [TS]

00:09:10   and how i live and I'm not [TS]

00:09:12   yeah that is like very specific things [TS]

00:09:14   or just you know broadly applicable to [TS]

00:09:17   your work in the chair a lot of the time [TS]

00:09:20   to find yourself sitting down [TS]

00:09:22   who ya sitting down a lot she wasn't [TS]

00:09:25   claiming to be a psychic that it's not [TS]

00:09:26   like she was saying you know you're [TS]

00:09:27   gonna be a total stranger and stuff I [TS]

00:09:29   didn't say she was claiming it but you [TS]

00:09:31   seem impressed and I'm imagining that [TS]

00:09:32   she was just saying things that were [TS]

00:09:33   broadly applicable to the group of [TS]

00:09:36   people who are likely to get a massage [TS]

00:09:38   so i went in and i thought it was gonna [TS]

00:09:43   be a little bit ever dad message because [TS]

00:09:45   it was all about like pouring oil on [TS]

00:09:46   your forward and all this sort of stuff [TS]

00:09:48   done well I just want to be you know I [TS]

00:09:50   just want my back rub my legs rubbed and [TS]

00:09:52   make all those knots car away from [TS]

00:09:53   sitting at my computer all day but it [TS]

00:09:56   was good it was one where they like [TS]

00:09:58   portal this oil all over your face and [TS]

00:10:00   your hair and stuff like that i actually [TS]

00:10:02   quite enjoyed it was quite nice and [TS]

00:10:05   about two or three minutes before the [TS]

00:10:07   end of the message the fire alarm went [TS]

00:10:10   off [TS]

00:10:11   no haha and we had to be evacuated and [TS]

00:10:15   it was freezing freezing cold and I'm [TS]

00:10:19   covered in oil oil over mine is dripping [TS]

00:10:23   in my eyes and all through my hair just [TS]

00:10:25   like it's like honey coming off me just [TS]

00:10:28   got that big a time like a greased up [TS]

00:10:31   piggy I've got out haha i've got a robot [TS]

00:10:34   and we all get taken outside onto this [TS]

00:10:36   freezing cold deck everyone staying in [TS]

00:10:38   the place like a hundred people and my [TS]

00:10:40   hairs all over the place because she's [TS]

00:10:42   been like [TS]

00:10:42   rubbing my hair so standing up and oily [TS]

00:10:45   and they do a roll call and calling out [TS]

00:10:47   their names and there's made a freak in [TS]

00:10:49   the corner [TS]

00:10:50   Erin Brady here so here's what we come [TS]

00:10:53   to corporate compensation corner the [TS]

00:10:56   therapist then says basically well there [TS]

00:10:58   was only like one or two minutes left [TS]

00:11:00   anyway there's no point putting you back [TS]

00:11:02   on the table to then say okay we're done [TS]

00:11:04   but we feel really bad about it and [TS]

00:11:06   we'll we'll line you up with that the [TS]

00:11:07   manager talked to the manager you know [TS]

00:11:09   whoever was in charge we got taken off [TS]

00:11:11   to this side room I still got oil all [TS]

00:11:13   over myself [TS]

00:11:14   the woman says we're really sorry but [TS]

00:11:16   then the genius of it was it was all put [TS]

00:11:18   back on me she says what can we do to [TS]

00:11:20   make it up to you what do you want are [TS]

00:11:23   now that's dad's ball that's ridiculous [TS]

00:11:26   now and what I do what ya what would you [TS]

00:11:29   said what you said the battle for hearts [TS]

00:11:36   and minds is already lost at this moment [TS]

00:11:38   right of put it back on you because the [TS]

00:11:42   social the social pressure there is for [TS]

00:11:43   you to be a reasonable understanding [TS]

00:11:45   person right if they want to win the [TS]

00:11:49   hearts and minds and have you be like oh [TS]

00:11:50   man you can't believe how great this [TS]

00:11:52   place was in the customer service was [TS]

00:11:54   amazing [TS]

00:11:54   it's their job to step up and to [TS]

00:11:56   schedule + schedule you another hole [TS]

00:11:59   replacement one that the company just [TS]

00:12:00   eat the cost or whatever like that's [TS]

00:12:02   what they should do if they want to be [TS]

00:12:04   like oh where where a great place to [TS]

00:12:06   come for vacation but when they say oh [TS]

00:12:08   you know how can we make this up to you [TS]

00:12:10   and just I just I feel deflated even [TS]

00:12:16   thinking about this question in theory [TS]

00:12:18   is it's just you know what you know what [TS]

00:12:20   you can't is just over i just don't even [TS]

00:12:22   care you know keep your money and enjoy [TS]

00:12:25   your low review like that's that's [TS]

00:12:27   that's how we'll make it up to each [TS]

00:12:29   other here alright I didn't think of [TS]

00:12:30   going in reviewing them the thing with [TS]

00:12:32   the massage right is is like even if [TS]

00:12:34   they only have two minutes left the [TS]

00:12:36   whole the whole point of something like [TS]

00:12:37   that is that you're coming out of it a a [TS]

00:12:40   relaxed and new Brady right at the end [TS]

00:12:44   of this experience [TS]

00:12:45   ya can't imagine if let's say let's say [TS]

00:12:50   for the rest of their massages that [TS]

00:12:52   you you get the person has an hour-long [TS]

00:12:54   massage and everything was perfectly [TS]

00:12:56   fine and in the last second of the [TS]

00:12:58   massage you bang a symbol above their [TS]

00:13:01   head rights really loud [TS]

00:13:04   oh but we only ruined one second of your [TS]

00:13:08   experiences like that's not how it works [TS]

00:13:11   right [TS]

00:13:12   it's not the actual amount of time it's [TS]

00:13:15   if the disruption relative to the [TS]

00:13:18   expectation exactly this episode of [TS]

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00:14:51   purchase Squarespace build it beautiful [TS]

00:14:54   i wanted to talk a little bit about a [TS]

00:14:59   book called guns germs [TS]

00:15:03   steel it's a book that i think is an [TS]

00:15:06   interesting book but there's also a lot [TS]

00:15:08   of arguments that take place around the [TS]

00:15:11   book and in some ways almost think the [TS]

00:15:13   meta argument about it is more [TS]

00:15:15   interesting than the actual book itself [TS]

00:15:16   what's the spoiler situation here and [TS]

00:15:18   it's just one of these things where [TS]

00:15:19   people should pause the podcast and read [TS]

00:15:21   the whole book now or because sometimes [TS]

00:15:23   people do that are we gonna be like [TS]

00:15:24   spoiler tastic is this is just one of [TS]

00:15:27   those cases or do you think people [TS]

00:15:28   should keep listening [TS]

00:15:29   well my thought is this is a bit like a [TS]

00:15:31   world war two situation [TS]

00:15:33   Brian there be spoilers i don't think [TS]

00:15:35   there can really be spoilers for most [TS]

00:15:39   nonfiction situation ya like it which is [TS]

00:15:43   essentially kind of a history book is [TS]

00:15:45   and if we get to the second topic we [TS]

00:15:46   will discuss the possibility of spoilers [TS]

00:15:48   in a nonfiction situation but it but in [TS]

00:15:49   general I think a book that is about a [TS]

00:15:52   topic can't be like us a spoiler [TS]

00:15:55   yeah okay so what is if someone wants to [TS]

00:15:58   stop and go read Guns Germs and Steel [TS]

00:16:01   now you can pause the podcast if you so [TS]

00:16:03   like is a long book and it is a I find [TS]

00:16:06   at times overly detailed book but you [TS]

00:16:11   know you go you go for man if you really [TS]

00:16:13   want to but we'll talk about it we'll [TS]

00:16:14   talk about what's in the book now so I [TS]

00:16:16   think if you haven't read it you can [TS]

00:16:17   still enjoy the conversation because we [TS]

00:16:20   will try to sum it up as we go along a [TS]

00:16:22   little bit i agree with that i create [TS]

00:16:24   this shouldn't you should not be [TS]

00:16:25   spoiling where it i'm listening to an [TS]

00:16:27   unabridged version and looking at the [TS]

00:16:29   scroll by here it looks like i am nearly [TS]

00:16:32   halfway through I'm not qualified to [TS]

00:16:34   talk about as a whole but I listened to [TS]

00:16:36   a pharaoh chunk of it [TS]

00:16:38   so how have you been finding it reading [TS]

00:16:40   this is not the harrowing experience [TS]

00:16:42   that getting things done was where i [TS]

00:16:45   actually went so far as to get my money [TS]

00:16:47   back for this one because that was held [TS]

00:16:49   that was that was how much I felt what [TS]

00:16:52   my dislike for that book and the way it [TS]

00:16:54   was written this has not been the case [TS]

00:16:56   and I would go so far as to say I found [TS]

00:16:59   it quite interesting [TS]

00:17:00   mmm i think the guy reading the book is [TS]

00:17:03   not the author does a very good job and [TS]

00:17:08   I think some of the topics are [TS]

00:17:09   interesting but I but it is not without [TS]

00:17:12   criticism there [TS]

00:17:14   if i have to say i have never heard [TS]

00:17:17   someone say the terms hunter-gatherer [TS]

00:17:19   and food production so many times in [TS]

00:17:24   such a short space of time like to the [TS]

00:17:27   point where I'm like say how together [TS]

00:17:29   one more time say hun together one more [TS]

00:17:31   time guys dare you [TS]

00:17:34   yeah because it does get it does get [TS]

00:17:37   very repetitive at times and it made me [TS]

00:17:39   wish that maybe the author could have [TS]

00:17:41   expanded his vocabulary just for the [TS]

00:17:44   sake of variety because it does get very [TS]

00:17:47   repetitive times I before I talk about [TS]

00:17:53   the content because I think that's what [TS]

00:17:54   you really want to talk about but just [TS]

00:17:56   more about the actual book itself just [TS]

00:17:57   to share for warn people [TS]

00:17:59   it was it's very least tastic it and [TS]

00:18:03   this and there always seems to be lists [TS]

00:18:04   within lists like he'll say so you're [TS]

00:18:07   probably wondering you know why cows eat [TS]

00:18:09   grass where there are seven reasons for [TS]

00:18:11   that [TS]

00:18:11   let me tell you the number one number [TS]

00:18:14   two number three number four number five [TS]

00:18:16   Number six number seven and as I will [TS]

00:18:18   talk about later in chapter 34 there are [TS]

00:18:21   another nine reasons that they eat green [TS]

00:18:24   grass and while i will go into that [TS]

00:18:27   later let me tell you those nine reasons [TS]

00:18:29   and that said these things to be lists [TS]

00:18:31   breaking out of lists and there's a lot [TS]

00:18:33   of a lot of that going on which I could [TS]

00:18:35   see really appealing to you actually [TS]

00:18:37   because you know we all know you like [TS]

00:18:39   like lists and at times you do find [TS]

00:18:42   yourself thinking oh my goodness I [TS]

00:18:43   cannot believe I'm listening just so [TS]

00:18:45   much talk about we crops flex and how [TS]

00:18:49   pulses are high in protein [TS]

00:18:51   don't nobody know exactly what a pulse [TS]

00:18:54   is I can kind of guess but and so at [TS]

00:19:00   times you have it seems like on my god [TS]

00:19:02   that he's talking about the most boring [TS]

00:19:04   things ever [TS]

00:19:05   mhm but I think despite the [TS]

00:19:09   repetitiveness in the list is actually [TS]

00:19:11   quite well written it'sit's kept a real [TS]

00:19:13   layman's level which i think is probably [TS]

00:19:15   quite easy because it's talking about [TS]

00:19:17   pretty basic stuff like you know herding [TS]

00:19:20   cows and sailing to other countries [TS]

00:19:22   right I can see why I [TS]

00:19:26   think that would appeal to you by the [TS]

00:19:28   way I know that you have criticisms of [TS]

00:19:29   the writing of the books i'm not saying [TS]

00:19:31   you think it's a masterpiece of [TS]

00:19:32   literature but i can see why it would [TS]

00:19:35   appeal to you because I mean I I joke [TS]

00:19:38   around about getting things done and how [TS]

00:19:40   it's like you know productivity porn and [TS]

00:19:43   I think you're quite you know you love [TS]

00:19:45   organization and productivity and stuff [TS]

00:19:47   so getting things done with a purity and [TS]

00:19:49   in some ways the whole thing about this [TS]

00:19:51   book i called up [TS]

00:19:53   I call that productivity mega porn [TS]

00:19:55   because this isn't just about people [TS]

00:19:58   being productive this is about like the [TS]

00:20:00   productivity and organization of like [TS]

00:20:02   the whole planet so i can just say you [TS]

00:20:05   guys are making this is an amazing I [TS]

00:20:06   can't believe it they're not just [TS]

00:20:07   talking about organizing a workday [TS]

00:20:09   they're talking about how whole [TS]

00:20:10   populations are organized and why the [TS]

00:20:12   world's so for you i can see why this is [TS]

00:20:15   like right in the sweet spot em yeah but [TS]

00:20:19   next time you tell me you think it's [TS]

00:20:21   funny that I can sit and watch a game of [TS]

00:20:22   darts I will pull out this block and say [TS]

00:20:25   let me talk to you a little bit about [TS]

00:20:27   flax and pulses i think that is grossly [TS]

00:20:33   unfair comparison everyone's interest [TS]

00:20:36   everyone's interested in different [TS]

00:20:37   things so anyway so so as a as a read it [TS]

00:20:41   is it out as as a book it is sometimes a [TS]

00:20:43   book what you think [TS]

00:20:44   well this is like this is pretty amazing [TS]

00:20:46   and pretty tedious and then but i think [TS]

00:20:50   it is well written [TS]

00:20:52   despite the repetitiveness and i think [TS]

00:20:54   is very it's very approachable land and [TS]

00:20:58   it's very well argued it's it's actually [TS]

00:21:00   like a conversation with you [TS]

00:21:02   we're even when sometimes you think [TS]

00:21:04   you're wrong because your arguments are [TS]

00:21:06   so well thought out and I've been sort [TS]

00:21:08   of pre-planned like they're very they're [TS]

00:21:12   very well fortress and your your [TS]

00:21:14   arguments are very with like you have [TS]

00:21:15   answers to most questions and like even [TS]

00:21:18   when I think you're wrong you're very [TS]

00:21:19   hard to argue because you're so well [TS]

00:21:21   prepared for the battle and that's what [TS]

00:21:23   this book is like even though i think [TS]

00:21:25   some of the things that are wrong it is [TS]

00:21:27   very strategically well done and and it [TS]

00:21:30   becomes hard to to say exactly why you [TS]

00:21:33   think it's wrong [TS]

00:21:34   yeah he's a bit overly prepared that [TS]

00:21:36   point they get I think it's an [TS]

00:21:37   interesting book by no means bye [TS]

00:21:40   no means do I think that everything in [TS]

00:21:42   it is right but he definitely comes to [TS]

00:21:45   the table with a bunch of stuff and I [TS]

00:21:48   think it's later in the book but the [TS]

00:21:49   section that always stuck with me was [TS]

00:21:50   there is a point at which he goes [TS]

00:21:52   through every example of how human [TS]

00:21:56   writing has ever come into existence [TS]

00:21:58   like every society that has ever come up [TS]

00:22:00   with writing and I remember the first [TS]

00:22:01   time I read the book like I believe you [TS]

00:22:04   man like i have just giving up [TS]

00:22:06   okay like I believe your theory about [TS]

00:22:07   human writing please don't make me read [TS]

00:22:10   one more like I've read enough about [TS]

00:22:12   knots vs cuneiform vs writing verses you [TS]

00:22:17   know when does it come up on its own [TS]

00:22:18   when is it distributed through other [TS]

00:22:19   people like I just let me just move on [TS]

00:22:21   to the next thing I think that's [TS]

00:22:23   probably an advantage of an audio book [TS]

00:22:24   isn't it because sometimes when it's [TS]

00:22:26   there on the page and you can see what's [TS]

00:22:28   coming and you see what's gone before [TS]

00:22:29   those sections can seem quite tedious [TS]

00:22:32   but when you're listening and you sort [TS]

00:22:33   of forgotten what he's already said and [TS]

00:22:35   you don't know what he's going to say [TS]

00:22:36   next [TS]

00:22:37   you can be in the middle of one of those [TS]

00:22:39   kind of patches of quicksand and not [TS]

00:22:42   know it until it's too late [TS]

00:22:43   it will stay in some ways an audiobook [TS]

00:22:45   kind of spares you the the worst of that [TS]

00:22:48   because you can't just live ur rather [TS]

00:22:51   than see it coming [TS]

00:22:52   so in closing before we talk about the [TS]

00:22:55   content [TS]

00:22:55   i I don't know finisher but I feel quite [TS]

00:22:59   comfortable recommending it like that [TS]

00:23:01   like i would say if this is something [TS]

00:23:03   you're interested in [TS]

00:23:04   go ahead and did win the Pulitzer Prize [TS]

00:23:05   didn't as well so it's not like I'm it's [TS]

00:23:08   not like we've pulled one out of left [TS]

00:23:09   field here for people this is like [TS]

00:23:10   reading books bit of a big deal i have [TS]

00:23:12   been fascinated for years about the kind [TS]

00:23:17   of meta argument that takes place on the [TS]

00:23:20   internet about this book and we were [TS]

00:23:22   talking on this message before a little [TS]

00:23:23   bit and I said that like this is the [TS]

00:23:27   book that launched a thousand arguments [TS]

00:23:29   at like a thousand argument threads [TS]

00:23:31   across the internet like it people just [TS]

00:23:32   argue about this book all the time in a [TS]

00:23:35   way that I find very interesting so [TS]

00:23:37   here's here's what i would say is the [TS]

00:23:39   like the thumbnail overview of the [TS]

00:23:42   argument in in Guns Germs and Steel [TS]

00:23:45   because germs and steel is arguably [TS]

00:23:47   vastly over simplifying all of human [TS]

00:23:50   society and now i am going to vastly [TS]

00:23:53   over simplify the very argument itself [TS]

00:23:55   the book is setting out to answer how is [TS]

00:24:01   it that Europeans ended up conquering [TS]

00:24:04   the whole world and Europeans ended up [TS]

00:24:07   with all of the stuff that allowed them [TS]

00:24:10   to conquer the whole world i like what [TS]

00:24:12   why did the europeans have ships why did [TS]

00:24:14   the europeans have guns [TS]

00:24:16   why did they have all of this technology [TS]

00:24:18   and then why were they the ones who are [TS]

00:24:21   able to spread all over the world and [TS]

00:24:24   like why is it that when the Europeans [TS]

00:24:26   arrived in north america that they [TS]

00:24:30   weren't faced with American Indians at [TS]

00:24:33   the same level of technological progress [TS]

00:24:36   ships didn't meet in the Atlantic where [TS]

00:24:40   we're human societies had had developed [TS]

00:24:42   at the same rates and it right they bump [TS]

00:24:45   into each other in the middle of the [TS]

00:24:46   Atlantic oh my oh my how are you how are [TS]

00:24:49   you [TS]

00:24:49   it doesn't that's not the way it went [TS]

00:24:51   down like the guy who believes in a note [TS]

00:24:53   alternative universe and there was a [TS]

00:24:54   rocket to fly there and then when he [TS]

00:24:56   doesn't he crashes into a rocket coming [TS]

00:24:57   the other way her friends yeah that's [TS]

00:25:00   that's not the way human society then [TS]

00:25:02   there's nothing human society were yeah [TS]

00:25:04   uh he could have just written chapter 1 [TS]

00:25:06   because someone had to be first the end [TS]

00:25:10   right [TS]

00:25:11   what's that like that is a totally [TS]

00:25:13   legitimate answer cracking it's like you [TS]

00:25:17   know of course someone's going to be [TS]

00:25:18   first how could someone not be first it [TS]

00:25:20   would be quite remarkable if someone [TS]

00:25:22   wasn't first if everybody was exactly [TS]

00:25:24   the same [TS]

00:25:25   yeah and i like that that would be that [TS]

00:25:27   would be astounding which we can also [TS]

00:25:29   then relate this the same conversation [TS]

00:25:31   two space-faring civilisation is right [TS]

00:25:34   maybe it's like it's like the star trek [TS]

00:25:36   universe of where everybody every alien [TS]

00:25:38   race is about the same level of [TS]

00:25:40   technology like that is shockingly [TS]

00:25:42   unlikely that someone has to be way [TS]

00:25:44   ahead of somebody else [TS]

00:25:45   yeah so what he lays out in the book is [TS]

00:25:48   he's he is talking about the starting [TS]

00:25:51   point of like 10,000 BC [TS]

00:25:54   when roughly speaking humans had spread [TS]

00:25:58   to everywhere they were going to be on [TS]

00:26:00   the face of the earth and they were all [TS]

00:26:02   at roughly the same level of technology [TS]

00:26:05   of basic stone tools and then says okay [TS]

00:26:10   his argument is fundamentally that when [TS]

00:26:14   you have people everywhere some [TS]

00:26:16   environments are more beneficial to [TS]

00:26:21   human thriving than others [TS]

00:26:24   huh some places are just going to be [TS]

00:26:26   better for people to live [TS]

00:26:29   I mean I have this guy jared diamond and [TS]

00:26:31   i have two nicknames for him [TS]

00:26:32   mr. hindsight and mr. obvious and I [TS]

00:26:36   think that first argument is he wearing [TS]

00:26:38   his mr. obvious hat [TS]

00:26:40   mmm yeah well see like when I read this [TS]

00:26:43   book it's gonna sound dumb but like you [TS]

00:26:47   know I went through history classes in [TS]

00:26:49   high school and it was remarkable to me [TS]

00:26:51   that there was no overarching [TS]

00:26:57   description of things like history class [TS]

00:26:59   was like this big long list of stuff [TS]

00:27:00   that happened and one of the things that [TS]

00:27:03   you can't help but notice is like man [TS]

00:27:05   the UK is just dominating in this [TS]

00:27:08   history game they have empires right [TS]

00:27:10   it's like the UK and then is the Dutch [TS]

00:27:12   and the French like this this little [TS]

00:27:13   cluster of places has taken over [TS]

00:27:15   absolutely everywhere and I'm not even [TS]

00:27:19   really sure that when I was younger like [TS]

00:27:20   it occurred to me to wonder like why was [TS]

00:27:23   this the case like I don't even know [TS]

00:27:26   some ways when you just grow up going [TS]

00:27:28   through history class or you grow up [TS]

00:27:30   learning about anything you you [TS]

00:27:31   sometimes don't think to ask questions [TS]

00:27:34   at all it's just like oh of course [TS]

00:27:37   Europe took over the world because [TS]

00:27:39   that's what they taught me in school and [TS]

00:27:41   like it never even occurred to me to [TS]

00:27:43   think that something else could have [TS]

00:27:44   been possible but Jared Diamond [TS]

00:27:46   supposedly the alternate question why [TS]

00:27:48   isn't it that Africa conquered the new [TS]

00:27:52   world and brought European slaves to the [TS]

00:27:55   new world [TS]

00:27:56   okay yeah that's an interesting question [TS]

00:27:57   like what why didn't that occur or for [TS]

00:27:59   example the thing that my video was [TS]

00:28:00   focusing on which was the question that [TS]

00:28:02   really struck me which an obvious [TS]

00:28:04   question never asked which is why didn't [TS]

00:28:08   they [TS]

00:28:08   Europeans get sick from Native American [TS]

00:28:11   diseases if the Native Americans got [TS]

00:28:13   sick from European diseases i get just [TS]

00:28:16   never occurred to me as a kid to ask [TS]

00:28:19   that because you're always told the [TS]

00:28:21   story in the context of like and the [TS]

00:28:23   Europeans came and the Native Americans [TS]

00:28:25   got sick from their diseases like and we [TS]

00:28:27   keep moving along and you just don't [TS]

00:28:29   think to to ask these questions [TS]

00:28:31   that's why the book kind of struck me [TS]

00:28:32   when I was a bit younger was like I [TS]

00:28:34   didn't think to ask these questions but [TS]

00:28:36   so the bot the bottom line of that [TS]

00:28:37   argument is just some places are more [TS]

00:28:40   beneficial to human societies and that [TS]

00:28:45   once you start down the road of having [TS]

00:28:51   more food and settling down and building [TS]

00:28:54   cities that this process is a [TS]

00:28:58   self-sustaining self-feeding process [TS]

00:29:01   that your city's get bigger you have a [TS]

00:29:03   higher population density you can then [TS]

00:29:06   develop more technology if you have [TS]

00:29:08   citizens who are free from the burden of [TS]

00:29:11   producing food and this just spirals up [TS]

00:29:15   and spirals up and spirals up and so [TS]

00:29:17   that a relatively even just a relatively [TS]

00:29:21   minor advantage in the beginning can end [TS]

00:29:23   up becoming something that makes the [TS]

00:29:25   difference of like two centuries worth [TS]

00:29:27   of technological process progress by the [TS]

00:29:30   time societies meet you think that's [TS]

00:29:33   fair from what you've read so far [TS]

00:29:34   yeah i tell you i think yeah basically [TS]

00:29:37   saying little bit of luck it'll be a [TS]

00:29:39   fairy dust and lucky star and you win [TS]

00:29:42   the whole game [TS]

00:29:42   the example I often like to use is it's [TS]

00:29:44   as though the earth is a very unfairly [TS]

00:29:49   designed board game and your starting [TS]

00:29:53   position gives you more or less [TS]

00:29:56   advantage and like Australia is the [TS]

00:30:00   worst place in the world to start and [TS]

00:30:03   Eurasia is probably the best place in [TS]

00:30:06   the world to start [TS]

00:30:07   that's what books trying to say yeah [TS]

00:30:09   well I mean you just set in five few [TS]

00:30:11   sentences but anyway yeah it wouldn't be [TS]

00:30:15   a book otherwise i guess it wouldn't it [TS]

00:30:17   wouldn't be a book otherwise but this is [TS]

00:30:19   why I think like that [TS]

00:30:21   statement ends up becoming like this [TS]

00:30:25   remarkably controversial thing like [TS]

00:30:29   these huge arguments over Guns Germs and [TS]

00:30:31   Steel for what I agree with you as I [TS]

00:30:34   think in many ways to me seems in [TS]

00:30:36   retrospect like a fairly obvious kind of [TS]

00:30:41   argument that just never occurred to me [TS]

00:30:43   when I was younger like of course some [TS]

00:30:45   places are better for humans to thrive [TS]

00:30:47   and others like that like that's why [TS]

00:30:50   europeans ended up taking over because [TS]

00:30:53   Europe was easy i get i guess one of the [TS]

00:30:56   things that comes across in the book [TS]

00:30:58   that I hadn't thought about quite so [TS]

00:31:00   much was if if you told me that the star [TS]

00:31:03   like you know that the the dice are [TS]

00:31:06   loaded all the board was ring I think [TS]

00:31:08   okay um you know this obviously whether [TS]

00:31:12   it's obvious you know obviously the [TS]

00:31:13   climate you know what your climate is [TS]

00:31:16   like is pretty important as someone who [TS]

00:31:18   lives in England and sees all these [TS]

00:31:19   rolling green hills 24 days 365 days a [TS]

00:31:24   year whatever and and then when i'm in [TS]

00:31:27   Australia is a barren desert right I [TS]

00:31:29   look I look into KY k well you've got a [TS]

00:31:31   head start here [TS]

00:31:32   the thing I guess I hadn't thought about [TS]

00:31:34   quite so much was how loaded dice were [TS]

00:31:38   when it comes to animals that the [TS]

00:31:41   strongest thing I've seen in the book so [TS]

00:31:42   far as he say the best natural resource [TS]

00:31:45   advantage that the generations had was [TS]

00:31:47   they got lucky with animals and everyone [TS]

00:31:49   else got unlucky with animals right [TS]

00:31:51   that to me is probably one of the key [TS]

00:31:54   features of the book is is exactly [TS]

00:31:57   happens you can see how others but [TS]

00:31:59   there's nice places everywhere in the [TS]

00:32:01   world I think it's not like Europe is [TS]

00:32:02   just uniformly perfect for me and [TS]

00:32:05   everyone's got gold and everyone's got [TS]

00:32:06   oil and some people have diamonds and [TS]

00:32:09   some people have this some people have [TS]

00:32:10   that but he's basically saying animals [TS]

00:32:13   and plants is where it was at and in [TS]

00:32:17   Europe got lucky [TS]

00:32:18   yeah he runs through the things that [TS]

00:32:22   make plant species and animal species [TS]

00:32:25   susceptible to human use in order to be [TS]

00:32:29   domesticated animals have to have a [TS]

00:32:31   bunch of characteristics which when and [TS]

00:32:33   this is where your lists and lists you [TS]

00:32:35   know begins because he could he goes [TS]

00:32:36   through all of this stuff with plants [TS]

00:32:37   and animals again I think it's very [TS]

00:32:39   interesting to go through all those [TS]

00:32:40   details it's far too much to go into for [TS]

00:32:43   this podcast but I mean just just [TS]

00:32:45   basically like you don't don't really [TS]

00:32:46   think about it but for domesticated [TS]

00:32:48   animals you need a couple things like [TS]

00:32:50   broadly speaking you need animals that [TS]

00:32:52   are big enough to be useful and so like [TS]

00:32:54   if you domesticate chinchillas they're [TS]

00:32:57   not going to be pulling plows for you in [TS]

00:32:59   a farm right you need a big animal you [TS]

00:33:01   need animals that are big but also [TS]

00:33:03   animals that are not unpredictable or [TS]

00:33:06   violence which is what is the big [TS]

00:33:09   problem for Africa like Africa has times [TS]

00:33:11   of big animals all of them are horrible [TS]

00:33:14   to work with and I like hippos her [TS]

00:33:17   terrific leave violent way more [TS]

00:33:20   dangerous than you think they are or he [TS]

00:33:22   runs through all the examples about like [TS]

00:33:23   zebras vs horses they look the same but [TS]

00:33:28   zebras are bastards right and horses are [TS]

00:33:31   great to work with because they have a [TS]

00:33:32   bunch of inbuilt characteristics I [TS]

00:33:35   haven't I haven't got to this yet gray [TS]

00:33:37   because the point you're making [TS]

00:33:38   obviously you've got all these nightmare [TS]

00:33:41   animals in places like Africa or a [TS]

00:33:43   paucity of animals in other places and [TS]

00:33:46   then Europe's call you know you do so [TS]

00:33:47   cows and shape and are you treating [TS]

00:33:49   animals so I get the point [TS]

00:33:51   does he get messy later on in the book [TS]

00:33:53   explain why Africa is full of badass [TS]

00:33:58   animals and Europe's full of ghosts our [TS]

00:34:00   dummies or is that just luck at one [TS]

00:34:03   point in the book he talks about and I [TS]

00:34:06   think this is really interesting is that [TS]

00:34:08   if you go back lots of continents used [TS]

00:34:11   to actually have many more large docile [TS]

00:34:15   animals and there's some really just [TS]

00:34:17   funny examples from australia with like [TS]

00:34:19   these mega marsupials yea big large [TS]

00:34:22   mammals [TS]

00:34:23   yeah and North America had the exact [TS]

00:34:25   same thing i like big large mammals but [TS]

00:34:28   that when basically because humans [TS]

00:34:31   developed their hunting skills like as [TS]

00:34:34   they went along humans arrived in north [TS]

00:34:37   america [TS]

00:34:38   and australia and the rest of the world [TS]

00:34:40   like with really great hunting skills [TS]

00:34:42   already right so we're able to out hunt [TS]

00:34:45   a lot of the local population and so [TS]

00:34:48   like when when they arrived there is [TS]

00:34:50   like okay great animals that have never [TS]

00:34:52   ever seen humans that have no reason to [TS]

00:34:55   avoid humans collide with a sudden [TS]

00:34:58   immigration of into North America [TS]

00:35:00   hunters with big pointy Spears which is [TS]

00:35:02   why africa so full of badass animals [TS]

00:35:04   because bright ideas and assets could [TS]

00:35:07   see could survive we're trying big [TS]

00:35:08   started here [TS]

00:35:10   yes and so he goes through that there's [TS]

00:35:12   basically around 10,000 BC there's a [TS]

00:35:15   huge number of megafauna extinctions [TS]

00:35:18   everywhere that humans have just arrived [TS]

00:35:20   for the with the exclusion of right [TS]

00:35:24   eurasia and africa because humans were [TS]

00:35:25   already there and animals have gotten [TS]

00:35:27   used to them to some extent yeah so that [TS]

00:35:29   that's the idea of arguments like it's [TS]

00:35:30   not even entirely luck [TS]

00:35:33   it's it's that humans caused this [TS]

00:35:35   situation to be the case but even if so [TS]

00:35:38   here's one of these things like people [TS]

00:35:39   love to argue with all the details in [TS]

00:35:41   Guns Germs and Steel like did humans [TS]

00:35:44   cause the megafauna extinction or did [TS]

00:35:46   humans not cause the megaphone [TS]

00:35:47   extinction to me that's not even [TS]

00:35:50   relevant like let's let's say that that [TS]

00:35:52   part of the argument turns out to be [TS]

00:35:54   false like people find out Omega Pharma [TS]

00:35:56   extinction didn't happen because of [TS]

00:35:57   humans [TS]

00:35:58   yeah okay well it doesn't matter because [TS]

00:36:01   you should still expect that somewhere [TS]

00:36:04   on earth [TS]

00:36:05   they're going to happen to be more [TS]

00:36:07   plants and animals that are useful to [TS]

00:36:09   humans than somewhere else [TS]

00:36:11   how could how could it be otherwise if [TS]

00:36:13   you have a sum like a semi-random [TS]

00:36:15   distribution of useful animals across [TS]

00:36:17   the world [TS]

00:36:18   yeah but when that applies to this whole [TS]

00:36:19   book crime in this whole book is based [TS]

00:36:22   on digging down into something that you [TS]

00:36:24   probably don't need to dig down into [TS]

00:36:26   anymore but he does for the intellectual [TS]

00:36:28   exercise over so you can't just say it's [TS]

00:36:31   like saying the British Empire was great [TS]

00:36:34   because they had booked boats why did I [TS]

00:36:36   have good boats are modern because i had [TS]

00:36:38   good word for example why did they have [TS]

00:36:39   good wood because they had a good [TS]

00:36:41   climber why do they have a good climate [TS]

00:36:43   and I will stop there [TS]

00:36:44   well now look at what point do you stop [TS]

00:36:46   why you got a good climate are because [TS]

00:36:48   you further north wires further north [TS]

00:36:49   but at some point [TS]

00:36:51   at what point do you stop asking what [TS]

00:36:54   it's like a little kid that just has why [TS]

00:36:56   to every single Indian tell them that's [TS]

00:36:57   what this book is like this was his [TS]

00:36:59   attitude to history is like it's like [TS]

00:37:01   the Europeans you know dominated the [TS]

00:37:04   world why because they invaded the other [TS]

00:37:06   countries [TS]

00:37:07   why because they went because I wanted [TS]

00:37:09   to and I wanted more land and wealth why [TS]

00:37:12   when they got there why do they why [TS]

00:37:15   what'd you just keep asking why and if [TS]

00:37:17   he keeps answering while the time [TS]

00:37:19   eventually he's going to come unstuck [TS]

00:37:20   isn't it right eventually going to come [TS]

00:37:23   to a point that has to just be an [TS]

00:37:25   assumption about the world yeah right [TS]

00:37:27   which is we assume that there are [TS]

00:37:30   animals some of which are more or less [TS]

00:37:32   useful to humans like well like this is [TS]

00:37:34   a ground to start assumption and then we [TS]

00:37:37   can also assume that the distribution of [TS]

00:37:38   these things is not going to be equal it [TS]

00:37:41   would be shockingly unlikely for it to [TS]

00:37:44   be equal and so that means some place [TS]

00:37:47   has to be better for humans than some [TS]

00:37:49   other place like noticed by definition [TS]

00:37:50   and still do you always have to come to [TS]

00:37:53   some kind of fundamental little moment [TS]

00:37:56   of it [TS]

00:37:56   I mean going through a bit of the book [TS]

00:37:58   I've encountered I think sometimes it's [TS]

00:38:01   guilty of simplifying things that I [TS]

00:38:02   think are very very complicated and [TS]

00:38:04   other times I think it's guilty of [TS]

00:38:06   complicating things that I think are far [TS]

00:38:07   more simple i agree but as someone who [TS]

00:38:11   knows has read the whole book for a star [TS]

00:38:13   and also has followed some of the [TS]

00:38:15   arguments around em what asked what are [TS]

00:38:18   the big bones of contention not the [TS]

00:38:20   minutiae like you know I disagree that [TS]

00:38:22   that was how we eat was domesticated but [TS]

00:38:24   whatever one of the big controversial [TS]

00:38:27   topics here one of the one of the big [TS]

00:38:29   things here is where I need to like show [TS]

00:38:32   my hand a little bit about some some of [TS]

00:38:35   my thoughts the way were you Brady you [TS]

00:38:37   want me to look at let me let people [TS]

00:38:38   know what I think about a movie before [TS]

00:38:40   we start talking about it yeah so again [TS]

00:38:42   i agree with you there are many faults [TS]

00:38:43   with the book and the reason we're [TS]

00:38:46   talking about it now is because i made [TS]

00:38:50   this America box video recently because [TS]

00:38:52   i took a a section of that of Guns Germs [TS]

00:38:55   and Steel the section about why didn't [TS]

00:38:57   the Europeans get sick from Native [TS]

00:38:59   American diseases and I made a little [TS]

00:39:01   video about it because I think that's an [TS]

00:39:03   interesting [TS]

00:39:04   art and also this is I have a very [TS]

00:39:06   limited repertoire of questions to ask [TS]

00:39:09   people at dinner parties to try to get [TS]

00:39:11   interesting conversations going and this [TS]

00:39:13   is one of these little questions that i [TS]

00:39:14   like to bring up and I find almost [TS]

00:39:17   universally that the person i'm sitting [TS]

00:39:19   across from has the same reaction that [TS]

00:39:20   idea of-of oh you know I never thought [TS]

00:39:23   about that why didn't the Europeans get [TS]

00:39:25   sick so I took that little section and I [TS]

00:39:29   made the video about it and its people [TS]

00:39:33   have been sending me all these things [TS]

00:39:34   about like oh it's a real shame that you [TS]

00:39:37   didn't know about the criticisms of Guns [TS]

00:39:39   Germs and Steel before you made this [TS]

00:39:41   video but the thing is i had read all of [TS]

00:39:45   those criticisms there is on read it [TS]

00:39:46   like a series of very interesting [TS]

00:39:49   articles where someone goes through the [TS]

00:39:50   book chapter by chapter i can point out [TS]

00:39:53   all of what they view as like the [TS]

00:39:56   contradictions or the things that [TS]

00:39:58   diamond says that are clear that the [TS]

00:40:00   person says are unclear and it goes [TS]

00:40:02   through it step by step by step by step [TS]

00:40:03   and i had read all of those things and i [TS]

00:40:07   also agree with most of the criticisms [TS]

00:40:09   look like I'm not going to argue with a [TS]

00:40:11   professional historian when they say [TS]

00:40:13   like oh x historical event occurred and [TS]

00:40:16   jared diamond like skimmed over it like [TS]

00:40:18   help i'll take them at their word for [TS]

00:40:19   that like your professional historian I [TS]

00:40:21   have no reason to disagree with you but [TS]

00:40:24   the thing that I find interesting and [TS]

00:40:27   valuable in Guns Germs and Steel that i [TS]

00:40:30   almost never see the critics argue [TS]

00:40:35   against is the theory that the book [TS]

00:40:39   presents the Guns Germs and Steel to me [TS]

00:40:43   gives a very simple but very basic [TS]

00:40:47   theory of history it's a theory that [TS]

00:40:51   only operates on very long time scales [TS]

00:40:54   and over continent-sized human divisions [TS]

00:40:59   but it is still nonetheless a theory [TS]

00:41:02   because i think it it makes if not a [TS]

00:41:05   testable prediction it it makes a a [TS]

00:41:09   question that [TS]

00:41:10   you can ask about the world where you [TS]

00:41:13   can say look if we were to rewind the [TS]

00:41:15   clock and play history again what would [TS]

00:41:20   you expect would happen and the Guns [TS]

00:41:22   Germs and Steel answer is that because [TS]

00:41:24   you're Asia the whole of Eurasia is more [TS]

00:41:28   susceptible to human technological [TS]

00:41:29   flourishing let's say you should expect [TS]

00:41:32   eighty percent of the time that the [TS]

00:41:35   first to colonial technology that [TS]

00:41:39   happens in your asia right and maybe you [TS]

00:41:42   know ten percent of the time it happens [TS]

00:41:45   in Africa and then like five percent of [TS]

00:41:48   the hop time it happens in north america [TS]

00:41:50   and like one percent of the time it [TS]

00:41:52   happens in Australia but not not that it [TS]

00:41:55   could never happen but it is just [TS]

00:41:57   extraordinary unlikely and so that to me [TS]

00:42:02   is the interesting thing is this theory [TS]

00:42:05   of history and so in many ways like I [TS]

00:42:09   can i agree with tons of the criticism [TS]

00:42:12   about the particulars in the book and [TS]

00:42:14   tons of the the details that jared [TS]

00:42:17   diamond gets wrong because jared diamond [TS]

00:42:19   is not a professional historian he is [TS]

00:42:22   archived should look it up before we [TS]

00:42:23   started using the college just gonna [TS]

00:42:25   blurt expert at one point wasn't using [TS]

00:42:27   to build yeah he's he's worked in papua [TS]

00:42:30   new guinea and yeah he's cataloging [TS]

00:42:32   birds f for the thing it's that personal [TS]

00:42:36   criticism that irritates me about Jared [TS]

00:42:38   Diamond it seems to just totally loved [TS]

00:42:40   Papa New Guinea like out of all [TS]

00:42:42   proportion [TS]

00:42:43   yes to what you would expect for any any [TS]

00:42:46   impartial out of ivory is a very [TS]

00:42:48   important place in this book [TS]

00:42:50   yeah is it and it irritates me I did [TS]

00:42:52   highlighted in the beginning of the book [TS]

00:42:54   even goes for like a little tangent [TS]

00:42:55   about how like let me explain to you how [TS]

00:42:57   papua new guineans are more intelligent [TS]

00:42:59   than average human being is like oh come [TS]

00:43:01   on man like one of the fundamental [TS]

00:43:04   theses of your book is that human [TS]

00:43:06   intelligence is not different everywhere [TS]

00:43:08   but you're still going to take a little [TS]

00:43:09   a little side moment about how Papa New [TS]

00:43:11   Guinea is like an exception to the rule [TS]

00:43:13   okay whatever yeah but so that that to [TS]

00:43:17   me is is the value of this book and like [TS]

00:43:19   I think that is very interesting but the [TS]

00:43:22   this then trips in historians into an [TS]

00:43:27   idea that like you cannot say geography [TS]

00:43:31   is destiny like historians are very very [TS]

00:43:37   very strongly against this idea for [TS]

00:43:41   reasons that I i find difficult to [TS]

00:43:44   understand and every time I get into an [TS]

00:43:48   argument or icy arguments that take [TS]

00:43:50   place over the book what usually happens [TS]

00:43:52   is just just as so many of these things [TS]

00:43:54   like different sides are arguing [TS]

00:43:56   different things like I want to have a [TS]

00:43:58   conversation about what is the current [TS]

00:44:01   state of the theory of history like has [TS]

00:44:05   much progress been made about the theory [TS]

00:44:07   of history but then historian wants to [TS]

00:44:10   argue with me about why was it Spain who [TS]

00:44:14   was the first to Mesoamerica and like [TS]

00:44:16   and why did spain lose their lead to the [TS]

00:44:20   united kingdom and my view is always ok [TS]

00:44:22   but that's too small like you're talking [TS]

00:44:24   with we want to talk about like [TS]

00:44:26   continent levels here not not particular [TS]

00:44:29   cut like this is not meant to tell you [TS]

00:44:31   why a particular country came about [TS]

00:44:35   it's only here to give you an estimation [TS]

00:44:38   of what is the likelihood that people on [TS]

00:44:41   a particular continent will be the ones [TS]

00:44:44   to colonize the world that that's my [TS]

00:44:46   view of this book [TS]

00:44:47   you know I just can't help thinking and [TS]

00:44:50   I thought the social time as well I've [TS]

00:44:51   been listening to the book and I think [TS]

00:44:53   even more now listening to you talk like [TS]

00:44:55   that [TS]

00:44:55   how is this different from two guys in [TS]

00:44:59   the bar talking about sports like it it [TS]

00:45:04   sounds like two guys arguing over y1 [TS]

00:45:06   football team is better than the other [TS]

00:45:08   if we play the super bowl again with my [TS]

00:45:10   team win this time did it all come down [TS]

00:45:12   to that one play and mistake or was that [TS]

00:45:14   team always destined to win because they [TS]

00:45:16   had these players and it sounds like it [TS]

00:45:19   sounds like sport like and if you want [TS]

00:45:23   to rake over and and great over the [TS]

00:45:26   ashes of history and talk about why did [TS]

00:45:28   these people win and why those people [TS]

00:45:30   invade that [TS]

00:45:32   I know you can use this argument about [TS]

00:45:33   how we learn lessons for the future but [TS]

00:45:35   i don't think there's a lot to be [TS]

00:45:36   learned for the future about this kind [TS]

00:45:39   of stuff anymore i think we've moved on [TS]

00:45:40   from it just seems like it seems that [TS]

00:45:44   arguing about sport and I don't have a [TS]

00:45:45   problem with that by the way because i [TS]

00:45:47   really love arguing about sport so i [TS]

00:45:49   finally found that history people will [TS]

00:45:51   sit there and argue over what was [TS]

00:45:53   spanish that went to Mesoamerica and [TS]

00:45:55   have that sort of thing [TS]

00:45:58   here's me going to try to reach and make [TS]

00:46:00   a sports metaphor or just click you just [TS]

00:46:02   correct me gently if I'm wrong here [TS]

00:46:04   well i will talk about sports and a book [TS]

00:46:06   that i haven't read the whole thing to [TS]

00:46:08   know about which is Moneyball yes I so [TS]

00:46:11   my understanding is that money ball is [TS]

00:46:14   the description of how statistics was [TS]

00:46:16   first used with baseball [TS]

00:46:18   yeah i'm not mistaken yes for selecting [TS]

00:46:20   the teams and thinking about the players [TS]

00:46:22   not as individual people but as machines [TS]

00:46:25   with particular batting averages in [TS]

00:46:26   particular situation right and so [TS]

00:46:29   Moneyball was about being able to put [TS]

00:46:31   together an effective team in a way that [TS]

00:46:34   was surprising to existing coaches yeah [TS]

00:46:38   and in some way like i always feel the [TS]

00:46:42   argument with historians it is a bit [TS]

00:46:44   like this where it's almost like this is [TS]

00:46:46   so overblown because he hasn't done the [TS]

00:46:48   same thing but jared diamond is a bit [TS]

00:46:49   like the money ball four continents [TS]

00:46:51   right he's looking at the stats and he's [TS]

00:46:54   like your ages and amazing continent it [TS]

00:46:57   doesn't mean you're asia is going to win [TS]

00:46:59   every time I guess like a 20 points and [TS]

00:47:02   it gets 5 animal points and I get right [TS]

00:47:04   but you can still score it and like I [TS]

00:47:08   can i can very easily imagine an [TS]

00:47:11   alternate universe where we are instead [TS]

00:47:14   living in a world where the Aborigines [TS]

00:47:16   got lucky right and they and they were [TS]

00:47:18   the first colonial technology and they [TS]

00:47:20   took over the whole world [TS]

00:47:21   yeah anything that well they had some [TS]

00:47:23   Einstein character that just came out of [TS]

00:47:24   nowhere and write that they had [TS]

00:47:26   tremendous luck or actually what i think [TS]

00:47:29   is a great counter example is I mean man [TS]

00:47:31   if you look at if you look at the [TS]

00:47:33   numbers for the black death like what we [TS]

00:47:36   think of as the plague this plague that [TS]

00:47:39   struck europe in the 1300 the Black [TS]

00:47:42   Death [TS]

00:47:43   this downing I guess the worst plague [TS]

00:47:45   the the estimates are at a minimum [TS]

00:47:49   thirty percent at a maximum sixty [TS]

00:47:51   percent of the population died in Europe [TS]

00:47:53   in the 1300 let's just say it was 50 [TS]

00:47:56   percentage for the choice this [TS]

00:47:57   conversation and it's amazing to me that [TS]

00:48:02   Europe came back from that like that's a [TS]

00:48:05   hell of a setback to have half your [TS]

00:48:08   population died and i can imagine a [TS]

00:48:12   version of the world where it's like [TS]

00:48:13   okay let's take the black death but [TS]

00:48:16   let's increase the virality ten percent [TS]

00:48:19   and the lethality ten percent and like [TS]

00:48:22   that like a plague like that is [TS]

00:48:23   something that's a random event and it [TS]

00:48:25   is not hard to imagine just by chance [TS]

00:48:28   there's an event that just knocks the [TS]

00:48:31   destin continent way back way back in [TS]

00:48:36   the same way that random events happen [TS]

00:48:37   in sports I like some guy twist his [TS]

00:48:39   ankle on the stairs walking into the [TS]

00:48:41   sports arena like you can just have bad [TS]

00:48:43   luck but so there could very easily be [TS]

00:48:45   an alternate universe version of america [TS]

00:48:47   or alternate universe version of the [TS]

00:48:49   world where the Aborigines took over the [TS]

00:48:51   world and they're trying to write a [TS]

00:48:53   history book going like man it's really [TS]

00:48:55   quite interesting that like the [TS]

00:48:56   Aborigines to go over the world when [TS]

00:48:57   Australia is terrible the thing that but [TS]

00:49:00   the thing I suspect that is in that [TS]

00:49:02   alternate world [TS]

00:49:03   jared diamond would write up would write [TS]

00:49:05   a book in which seemed inevitable that [TS]

00:49:07   Australia Aborigines will have taken [TS]

00:49:10   over the world like I think when you're [TS]

00:49:11   using hindsight you can engineer almost [TS]

00:49:14   anything [TS]

00:49:15   yeah i think in that world it would it [TS]

00:49:17   would also seemed inevitable the hot the [TS]

00:49:19   hindsight the hind side thing is a real [TS]

00:49:21   problem right [TS]

00:49:22   this is this is always the issue of [TS]

00:49:23   talking about stuff that happened in the [TS]

00:49:25   past [TS]

00:49:25   yeah but I would almost feel like you'd [TS]

00:49:27   be much more willing to try to come to a [TS]

00:49:30   conclusion like Aborigines must just be [TS]

00:49:33   smarter because they came ok overcame [TS]

00:49:35   like tremendous tremendous terrible [TS]

00:49:38   continent disadvantage right where is [TS]

00:49:41   one of the fundamental points that Jared [TS]

00:49:43   I was trying to make a Guns Germs and [TS]

00:49:44   Steel is look everybody is about the [TS]

00:49:47   same intelligence or close enough to [TS]

00:49:48   like it doesn't matter right and if you [TS]

00:49:50   rewind the clock and you take all of the [TS]

00:49:53   Africans and you put them in north [TS]

00:49:55   america and you take all the North [TS]

00:49:56   America [TS]

00:49:56   can you put them in Europe and you take [TS]

00:49:58   all the Orientals and you put them in [TS]

00:50:00   Africa like you should end up with the [TS]

00:50:01   same probabilities anyway because it's [TS]

00:50:04   the continent that is affecting the [TS]

00:50:06   outcome it's not the people like the [TS]

00:50:08   people aren't any different and and I [TS]

00:50:10   totally back him on that end but it does [TS]

00:50:13   mean that you can have situations where [TS]

00:50:14   just the unexpected occurs because I [TS]

00:50:18   don't think he is he is arguing but I [TS]

00:50:21   see people like arguing against this [TS]

00:50:23   version in their minds of conduct germs [TS]

00:50:26   and steel that he is saying it is [TS]

00:50:28   inevitable that some civilization in [TS]

00:50:31   Eurasia was the one that took over the [TS]

00:50:33   world [TS]

00:50:33   I don't think he makes that argument I [TS]

00:50:35   think he just talked about it was the [TS]

00:50:37   most likely one and we're living in the [TS]

00:50:39   most likely universe but it could have [TS]

00:50:42   happened in a different way [TS]

00:50:43   it's just extremely unlikely like Europe [TS]

00:50:46   would have had to have the the Black [TS]

00:50:49   Death be more lethal or happen at a much [TS]

00:50:51   more unfortunate point in their history [TS]

00:50:54   like if the black to happen in the [TS]

00:50:56   fifteen hundreds the paper that argue [TS]

00:50:58   against her who don't like this [TS]

00:51:00   geography theory because obviously the [TS]

00:51:02   start of the book he makes a really [TS]

00:51:04   really big point about all humans at the [TS]

00:51:06   same black you know one races and [TS]

00:51:08   smarter than the others etc etc [TS]

00:51:10   yeah people who argue against his [TS]

00:51:12   geography theory to put it really simply [TS]

00:51:15   do they say no in fact it is the people [TS]

00:51:19   who were different or what do they say [TS]

00:51:21   the real reason is like what's their [TS]

00:51:22   alternative theory to the geography [TS]

00:51:24   theory [TS]

00:51:25   surely that I come out and say Europeans [TS]

00:51:28   are naturally smarter all or do they say [TS]

00:51:30   that I don't know they don't write the [TS]

00:51:32   stories are not arguing against that but [TS]

00:51:34   this is this is where i find it the most [TS]

00:51:35   interesting and I i am trying to make [TS]

00:51:38   this as clear as they can in this [TS]

00:51:39   podcast because i was talking about a [TS]

00:51:41   thing is easier than trying to write it [TS]

00:51:42   out when you're just arguing with [TS]

00:51:43   someone on the internet i would really [TS]

00:51:47   like in the reddit for someone to who [TS]

00:51:52   thinks like a historian who thinks they [TS]

00:51:54   can answer this question that Brady is [TS]

00:51:58   asking that is my question as well which [TS]

00:52:00   is [TS]

00:52:01   don't argue against the particulars [TS]

00:52:04   about events the that Jared Diamond [TS]

00:52:09   mentions in Guns Germs and Steel I want [TS]

00:52:12   a coherent alternate theory of history [TS]

00:52:18   that like that's that's what i am [TS]

00:52:21   looking for [TS]

00:52:22   that's the argument that i want to have [TS]

00:52:24   like what is the alternate theory of [TS]

00:52:25   history and what I have seen so far and [TS]

00:52:29   then maybe I have not read widely enough [TS]

00:52:31   for I've been looking in the wrong [TS]

00:52:32   places but on the rare occasions when I [TS]

00:52:35   see people having the argument on on [TS]

00:52:37   this level on the like let's not get [TS]

00:52:40   down in the weeds [TS]

00:52:41   let's not argue over the details because [TS]

00:52:43   often they don't even matter they're not [TS]

00:52:44   relevant not really interested in the [TS]

00:52:46   Mesoamerican Civil War and whether or [TS]

00:52:48   not that was a factor in the [TS]

00:52:50   conquistadors ability to conquer the [TS]

00:52:52   continent but I don't think that's [TS]

00:52:53   really relevant either way on the on the [TS]

00:52:57   big picture version because what i [TS]

00:53:00   normally see is people either saying [TS]

00:53:02   there is no theory of history that this [TS]

00:53:05   whole project is fundamentally [TS]

00:53:09   ridiculous that you have to take history [TS]

00:53:12   as it unfolds event by event by event [TS]

00:53:16   and i am very sorry I'm forgetting there [TS]

00:53:19   is a technical name for this but saying [TS]

00:53:21   how like you have to look at the chain [TS]

00:53:23   of all things so like the example I [TS]

00:53:27   often see is is saying like oh if a city [TS]

00:53:30   is founded in a different location like [TS]

00:53:32   that can then have a big effect on [TS]

00:53:34   whether or not a country developed in a [TS]

00:53:36   particular way and then like that [TS]

00:53:38   affects whether or not the country is [TS]

00:53:40   powerful which can affect the rest of [TS]

00:53:41   the world events and my view of that is [TS]

00:53:45   like listen man that's is not a theory [TS]

00:53:48   that's just listing everything that has [TS]

00:53:52   ever happened and that's what I see most [TS]

00:53:55   of the time from professional historians [TS]

00:53:57   like I don't doubt that they are right [TS]

00:53:58   about the list of things but they just [TS]

00:54:01   want to present a list of everything [TS]

00:54:04   that has ever happened in all of human [TS]

00:54:06   history and I think that that's very [TS]

00:54:08   different from the notion of of a theory [TS]

00:54:10   like an one of the important or [TS]

00:54:14   one of the things about a theory is that [TS]

00:54:16   you don't expect it to be able to [TS]

00:54:19   perfectly work for absolutely everything [TS]

00:54:23   like I made a bad analogy when when the [TS]

00:54:26   video first came out but I really said [TS]

00:54:28   like I was thinking that Guns Germs and [TS]

00:54:30   Steel was a bit like the general [TS]

00:54:32   relativity of the history world [TS]

00:54:35   I didn't mean that it's like as as big [TS]

00:54:38   of encompasses as a serious general [TS]

00:54:41   relativity is what I was trying to get [TS]

00:54:42   out there is the idea that general [TS]

00:54:46   relativity is a theory that works on the [TS]

00:54:50   big-scale icon on galaxy sighs things [TS]

00:54:54   but if you try to use general relativity [TS]

00:54:56   to describe very small things it just [TS]

00:54:58   doesn't work but that doesn't mean that [TS]

00:55:01   the theory is wrong it's just applicable [TS]

00:55:03   under certain circumstances sounding [TS]

00:55:06   like Harry soda and now from them [TS]

00:55:08   foundation series a bit a bit i like [TS]

00:55:13   yeah I will I will totally grant that [TS]

00:55:15   although i think that the Guns Germs and [TS]

00:55:16   Steel like it that theory ends in 1492 [TS]

00:55:20   right is as soon as civilizations [TS]

00:55:24   interact like it is all null and void [TS]

00:55:25   now it is you know it's kinda over but [TS]

00:55:28   that that's that's what I feel like I'm [TS]

00:55:30   constantly trying to have this [TS]

00:55:32   conversation with historians about what [TS]

00:55:35   is your theory of history and they keep [TS]

00:55:37   wanting to talk to me about the atoms [TS]

00:55:39   it's like but i agree with you about the [TS]

00:55:42   atoms like we're not we don't actually [TS]

00:55:44   disagree but i'm just i'm asking a [TS]

00:55:46   different question he could be the [TS]

00:55:48   problem with your question I don't know [TS]

00:55:50   if it is on up here's what could be a [TS]

00:55:52   problem theory of relativity is not [TS]

00:55:56   going to change because of something and [TS]

00:55:58   Adam does is it like you know atoms [TS]

00:56:01   atoms are atoms and the theory of [TS]

00:56:03   relativity zyzz unbreakable you know [TS]

00:56:05   it's a big deal and it's it's the rose [TS]

00:56:08   and everything has to follow those rules [TS]

00:56:10   yeah that's why was a terrible now dear [TS]

00:56:12   okay well don't let me get away from it [TS]

00:56:14   then I won't bring it up again [TS]

00:56:16   let me ask you this about the theory of [TS]

00:56:17   history that's why it was a terrible one [TS]

00:56:19   for me to pick let me offer an alternate [TS]

00:56:21   one which might be better which is a [TS]

00:56:23   Guns Germs and Steel is like a [TS]

00:56:25   geocentric version of the [TS]

00:56:27   universe it may be really wrong in very [TS]

00:56:30   many ways but it also to me looks like [TS]

00:56:32   isn't this is starting points like [TS]

00:56:34   shouldn't we be continuing to work on [TS]

00:56:36   the theory of history and not [TS]

00:56:37   necessarily be like I just garbage just [TS]

00:56:39   throw it away [TS]

00:56:40   here's what here's why maybe it is [TS]

00:56:41   garbage is how susceptible is a theory [TS]

00:56:46   of history to humans have helped how can [TS]

00:56:53   one person break the theory because no [TS]

00:56:55   one animal person can break the theory [TS]

00:56:57   of relativity like if if you if you if [TS]

00:57:00   you're strong reorder have an amazing [TS]

00:57:01   personality or do something brilliant [TS]

00:57:03   you're still not gonna change the theory [TS]

00:57:05   of relativity right is the theory of [TS]

00:57:07   history so I mean we cut the we're going [TS]

00:57:10   straight into foundation territory here [TS]

00:57:12   and i won't give spoilers away but this [TS]

00:57:14   is what happens with psychohistory and [TS]

00:57:15   in in foundation isn't it like can can a [TS]

00:57:19   person could one person break the theory [TS]

00:57:22   because so many humans live and die [TS]

00:57:24   every day that if the theory of history [TS]

00:57:27   is so fragile that a brilliant person a [TS]

00:57:31   brilliant Aborigine inventing a boat 200 [TS]

00:57:34   years early in Australia or a brilliant [TS]

00:57:36   a brilliant person in North America [TS]

00:57:40   cultivating a plant a thousand years [TS]

00:57:42   earlier than expected could break the [TS]

00:57:44   whole system then the theory of history [TS]

00:57:46   probably isn't worth discussing very [TS]

00:57:47   much because it's probably pretty likely [TS]

00:57:50   to get broken or is the theory of [TS]

00:57:52   history more robust than that it's it's [TS]

00:57:56   an interesting question [TS]

00:57:58   my thought is that it would be possible [TS]

00:58:02   maybe not for one person but for me it [TS]

00:58:07   was saying before a series of Lucky [TS]

00:58:09   events to bring you the unexpected [TS]

00:58:12   outcome [TS]

00:58:13   well that's different of course a series [TS]

00:58:15   of Lucky event you know a comet landing [TS]

00:58:17   on London a few hundred years ago would [TS]

00:58:20   have changed his require lap so I mean [TS]

00:58:23   is a fragile or doesn't need a comet or [TS]

00:58:25   a series of amazing coincidences because [TS]

00:58:28   of course it that is unlikely that I [TS]

00:58:30   would say it's much closer to the the [TS]

00:58:32   comet side of things like that that's my [TS]

00:58:35   feeling of it is that [TS]

00:58:37   look it doesn't matter how many [TS]

00:58:38   Einsteins in a row you get in Australia [TS]

00:58:41   you're like you're limited by the [TS]

00:58:42   resources of the world and the very fact [TS]

00:58:46   that you're being born into Australia [TS]

00:58:49   like is just limiting the ability to [TS]

00:58:52   express your intelligence anyway because [TS]

00:58:54   like what are you gonna do [TS]

00:58:56   you're living a hunter-gatherer [TS]

00:58:57   lifestyle in in this situation like it's [TS]

00:59:00   going to be very hard for you to [TS]

00:59:02   single-handedly developed agriculture [TS]

00:59:05   and like move the rest of everybody else [TS]

00:59:07   along the start of this path like it's [TS]

00:59:10   just shockingly shockingly difficult [TS]

00:59:13   that you have to have incentives to stay [TS]

00:59:16   put that are in the world like otherwise [TS]

00:59:20   you're you're going to stay as a [TS]

00:59:22   hunter-gatherer society you're going to [TS]

00:59:24   keep moving around because you're a [TS]

00:59:26   mathematics you say like you had a local [TS]

00:59:28   maximum Jared Diamond does does mention [TS]

00:59:30   I forget exactly where but he mentions [TS]

00:59:32   like 11 place in in Australia where that [TS]

00:59:35   is like more susceptible to development [TS]

00:59:38   than others but like but it took it took [TS]

00:59:41   humans awhile to get there and by the [TS]

00:59:43   time they got there [TS]

00:59:44   Europeans had already arrived so it's [TS]

00:59:46   like that game was probably a delight [TS]

00:59:47   yeah i think it was a delay i think [TS]

00:59:48   that's right yeah so there was a there [TS]

00:59:50   was a mighty black stump that called [TS]

00:59:52   people need to let me ask you this that [TS]

00:59:55   shaming that a theory of history is kind [TS]

00:59:57   of valid and robust and worth [TS]

00:59:57   of valid and robust and worth [TS]

01:00:00   coming up with that's a fun thing to do [TS]

01:00:05   and it's intellectually stimulating and [TS]

01:00:06   humans should do intellectually [TS]

01:00:08   stimulating things but if it is created [TS]

01:00:12   how is it useful is it useful to us is [TS]

01:00:16   that practically useful to us until we [TS]

01:00:18   reach a point where we start colonizing [TS]

01:00:20   other planets or we start getting [TS]

01:00:22   colonized by aliens and things like that [TS]

01:00:24   like if we can if we can crack the code [TS]

01:00:27   and correct the theory and we feel [TS]

01:00:28   absolutely confidence right [TS]

01:00:30   surely this is just useless now anyway [TS]

01:00:34   or is it practically useful to have this [TS]

01:00:35   information it's almost impossible for [TS]

01:00:38   me to imagine a situation that it's [TS]

01:00:39   useful like I think this is purely an [TS]

01:00:42   intellectual exercise right which might [TS]

01:00:45   be part of the reason why the fighting [TS]

01:00:47   over it is just so enormous right that [TS]

01:00:50   the know that old that Old Crow like the [TS]

01:00:52   forget the details of its like the the [TS]

01:00:54   fighting is furious when the the rewards [TS]

01:00:56   are small and having this is this is [TS]

01:00:58   that kind of thing I don't think there's [TS]

01:01:00   an application of this [TS]

01:01:03   yeah I just I get frustrated when in my [TS]

01:01:09   view someone I don't even want to say [TS]

01:01:12   nitpicking because that that is demoting [TS]

01:01:15   the work that people have done too i [TS]

01:01:16   think quite correctly criticized Guns [TS]

01:01:18   Germs and Steel across many axes right [TS]

01:01:21   it is undoubtable that you can go [TS]

01:01:23   through a chapter-by-chapter and and say [TS]

01:01:25   like oh this wasn't quite sure this [TS]

01:01:26   wasn't quite right but it still seems to [TS]

01:01:29   me just to be to be missing the argument [TS]

01:01:31   i will just let me let me just mention [TS]

01:01:33   the biggest example where this this [TS]

01:01:34   comes across is like a criticism about [TS]

01:01:37   whether or not diseases came from [TS]

01:01:41   domesticated animals like this so this [TS]

01:01:44   is this is the thing i was mentioning my [TS]

01:01:45   video yeah and without a doubt there is [TS]

01:01:49   a huge amount of uncertainty about the [TS]

01:01:51   origin of many diseases and people can [TS]

01:01:55   quite rightly point out like it's it's [TS]

01:01:57   difficult to say where a lot of the [TS]

01:01:58   European plagues originated from did [TS]

01:02:01   they come from domesticated animals [TS]

01:02:03   maybe maybe not like it seems like we [TS]

01:02:05   know that the cow was a pretty bad [TS]

01:02:08   animal to have around like some diseases [TS]

01:02:10   came from it but did all of the plagues [TS]

01:02:11   come from domesticated animals i don't [TS]

01:02:14   know i'm not sure [TS]

01:02:15   so you can go through in and poke holes [TS]

01:02:18   in that but my view on it it with all [TS]

01:02:20   the stuff is like okay but even if [TS]

01:02:21   that's wrong even if it didn't come from [TS]

01:02:23   domesticated animals nobody disagrees [TS]

01:02:26   that you still can't have plagues if you [TS]

01:02:28   don't have a big enough population like [TS]

01:02:30   it doesn't even matter if that part of [TS]

01:02:31   the book is wrong and so I always feel [TS]

01:02:33   like focus focus on the value to be [TS]

01:02:35   extracted from this like I think there [TS]

01:02:38   is something very interesting in this [TS]

01:02:39   book but i also think that it is just [TS]

01:02:42   infuriating too many historians in a way [TS]

01:02:46   that I find interesting and i have to [TS]

01:02:49   confess I have to confess that I did it [TS]

01:02:53   shouldn't have done it Brady but I did [TS]

01:02:55   kind of like intentionally poke the [TS]

01:02:58   historians a bit in in my video because [TS]

01:03:01   i knew i knew who they were going to be [TS]

01:03:04   some people watching the America box [TS]

01:03:05   video who were like slowly having their [TS]

01:03:08   blood boil as they as they realize like [TS]

01:03:10   what this video is about I could just [TS]

01:03:12   like imagine this person like the [TS]

01:03:14   simmering is getting like hotter and [TS]

01:03:16   hotter and hotter as they're watching [TS]

01:03:17   the video he's going through Guns Germs [TS]

01:03:18   and Steel I can't believe it [TS]

01:03:20   which is why i like I could not help [TS]

01:03:21   myself in the end of that video in the [TS]

01:03:24   audible add going this is the history [TS]

01:03:26   book to rule his tree books because you [TS]

01:03:29   love the idea of someone just losing it [TS]

01:03:31   at their computer screen like i can't [TS]

01:03:34   believe that like not only has he done [TS]

01:03:35   this all day but he's recommending this [TS]

01:03:36   above all is treat books there is a [TS]

01:03:38   perverse pleasure to be gained from that [TS]

01:03:40   this is the joy of trolling this is the [TS]

01:03:44   joy of trolling as the word is supposed [TS]

01:03:46   to be used like I knew that someone was [TS]

01:03:49   going to be wound up by that and it's [TS]

01:03:51   like I can definitely see that some [TS]

01:03:52   people just popped at that which is why [TS]

01:03:55   I had to put that line in there [TS]

01:03:56   even I'm not even sure I believe it the [TS]

01:03:58   only thing that would the only thing [TS]

01:04:00   that could have potentially been a [TS]

01:04:01   little bit funnier was if you [TS]

01:04:02   recommended like a book that was the [TS]

01:04:05   exact opposite that made the exact [TS]

01:04:06   opposite argument to what your video is [TS]

01:04:08   just about yeah and then that he hasn't [TS]

01:04:10   even read that book happiness is the [TS]

01:04:12   exact opposite that [TS]

01:04:13   you could have made some heads explode [TS]

01:04:14   doing that to you but maybe that's good [TS]

01:04:16   that's to advance maybe that's advanced [TS]

01:04:18   rolling no no let's get on my I might do [TS]

01:04:21   it for future book after keep that in [TS]

01:04:22   mind I have to keep that in mind the [TS]

01:04:24   thing that has come through from the [TS]

01:04:26   book and from your video more than [TS]

01:04:28   anything to me is that certainly [TS]

01:04:30   diamonds argument is that the key to [TS]

01:04:32   success is intensity is is bunching [TS]

01:04:37   things together for various reasons one [TS]

01:04:40   is it makes you hard as nails when [TS]

01:04:42   you're around lots of people because you [TS]

01:04:44   get sick and you get better when you get [TS]

01:04:45   immune who and it consolidates a lot of [TS]

01:04:49   ideas and technology and intellectual [TS]

01:04:52   progression and I mean this is this is [TS]

01:04:56   something we still do today this is why [TS]

01:04:57   we have universities this is why we have [TS]

01:04:59   technology parks this is why like this [TS]

01:05:02   is why we do lots of things intensely [TS]

01:05:04   yeah and and basically what diamond then [TS]

01:05:08   does he tries to then go down another [TS]

01:05:10   level and say so why did the intensity [TS]

01:05:12   happen in Europe and and then he comes [TS]

01:05:16   to the conclusion that it's because it [TS]

01:05:19   was easy to eight basically the weather [TS]

01:05:22   was good yeah easy food made people [TS]

01:05:25   bunch together and when people bunch [TS]

01:05:26   together that tends to be best for [TS]

01:05:28   people [TS]

01:05:29   yeah and it's not even just easy food [TS]

01:05:31   it's also just important to note that [TS]

01:05:32   the part of the argument is also ease of [TS]

01:05:36   food production because one of the [TS]

01:05:38   things is that like there were large [TS]

01:05:39   cities in Mesoamerica but they were [TS]

01:05:42   still largely agrarian cities like even [TS]

01:05:45   though they had huge populations those [TS]

01:05:47   populations were largely involved in [TS]

01:05:49   food production and whereas the [TS]

01:05:51   differences in the European cities [TS]

01:05:52   because that you have draft animals [TS]

01:05:54   which allows you to start booting up [TS]

01:05:56   other technology you have large [TS]

01:05:58   populations that are not involved in [TS]

01:06:00   food production like you start getting [TS]

01:06:01   this whole extra layer of people who can [TS]

01:06:03   do other things and so you just need a [TS]

01:06:06   time on your hands as well to think what [TS]

01:06:08   we're gonna do today let's invent some [TS]

01:06:09   stuff and then go to conquer the world [TS]

01:06:11   yeah exactly you know you think about [TS]

01:06:12   the kind of the golden age of science [TS]

01:06:15   and it's like it's no accident that a [TS]

01:06:18   number of people like Lord Kelvin who [TS]

01:06:21   made lots of contributions to science [TS]

01:06:23   like they were all men of leisure [TS]

01:06:25   thankfully were all like really rich [TS]

01:06:27   people who had time on their hands and [TS]

01:06:30   they existed at the right time when you [TS]

01:06:32   could do tabletop science it's like yeah [TS]

01:06:35   if you need tons of just spare to meet [TS]

01:06:37   you can't be working at the coal mine [TS]

01:06:39   every day and then also be figuring out [TS]

01:06:42   great things about sounds like you need [TS]

01:06:44   time to be able to do this and that's a [TS]

01:06:46   certain kind of leisure that is provided [TS]

01:06:49   by efficiency in food production as a [TS]

01:06:54   slight side that side recommendation I [TS]

01:06:56   put it on my website but a book that i [TS]

01:06:58   really recommend to go along with guns [TS]

01:07:00   germs and steel is called triumph of the [TS]

01:07:03   city which I think much more than [TS]

01:07:06   diamonds focuses on this idea that just [TS]

01:07:09   let you're saying that like cities are a [TS]

01:07:12   very interesting [TS]

01:07:14   meta invention of humans that they have [TS]

01:07:17   this exact intensifying effect that [TS]

01:07:20   there are these really interesting [TS]

01:07:21   economic effects that happen in cities [TS]

01:07:24   that city's specialize in these ways [TS]

01:07:27   where you end up with cities that have [TS]

01:07:29   financed specialties or fashion [TS]

01:07:31   specialties or automotive that [TS]

01:07:34   specialties and that this is a a very [TS]

01:07:38   interesting way that city's help [TS]

01:07:41   progress technology along faster than [TS]

01:07:45   you might otherwise expect if you just [TS]

01:07:46   had people all over the place we have [TS]

01:07:48   intensity definitely matters [TS]

01:07:50   yeah huh are you feeling do with most of [TS]

01:07:56   the things you want to do with oh yeah [TS]

01:07:58   yeah I'm just you know i have like a [TS]

01:08:00   bazillion notes on this kind of thing [TS]

01:08:01   that I always do but I i'm genuinely [TS]

01:08:04   like I really want to see the feedback [TS]

01:08:07   on this episode that i am i'm curious to [TS]

01:08:10   see what people say i'm curious to hear [TS]

01:08:12   about alternate versions of the theory [TS]

01:08:15   of history [TS]

01:08:15   you really like when people gone right [TS]

01:08:18   war and peace in a reddit comment i [TS]

01:08:19   right 400,000 lines about why they think [TS]

01:08:22   the world evolved the way it did you [TS]

01:08:24   gonna sit there and read that you don't [TS]

01:08:25   even reply to my emails [TS]

01:08:27   no I don't reply to your emails [TS]

01:08:28   here's the thing with the super-long [TS]

01:08:31   read the comments it depends right you [TS]

01:08:33   think you can get a sense sometimes like [TS]

01:08:34   always this is just a lunatic person or [TS]

01:08:37   is it a person who's just not able to [TS]

01:08:39   explain themselves very well this is how [TS]

01:08:41   stuff on the internet goes but I am [TS]

01:08:43   curious to see what people have to say [TS]

01:08:45   about this like I i think it is the very [TS]

01:08:47   interesting book it's a very interesting [TS]

01:08:48   book that that causes an argument about [TS]

01:08:52   it [TS]

01:08:52   those are those are my final thoughts [TS]

01:08:54   really do anything else you want to add [TS]

01:08:55   did you consider contacting jared [TS]

01:08:57   diamond and see what you thought of the [TS]

01:08:58   video now I didn't occur to me do you [TS]

01:09:05   think i should have to be curious to see [TS]

01:09:07   what you thought [TS]

01:09:08   10 would you like to know either you [TS]

01:09:14   don't care i would be surprised if he [TS]

01:09:17   didn't like it because it's reiteration [TS]

01:09:20   of his theory [TS]

01:09:20   yeah that's true I guess I i I'd be [TS]

01:09:24   shocked if you like all your videos hit [TS]

01:09:26   man maybe he said like your theory but [TS]

01:09:29   the animation was it shorty [TS]

01:09:30   yeah I wish minute physics done it this [TS]

01:09:35   episode of Hello internet is brought to [TS]

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01:10:17   want and get it up and running [TS]

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01:10:31   domain name registrars look like garbage [TS]

01:10:34   and they feel really scared me but hover [TS]

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01:10:47   something that you should just have the [TS]

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01:11:00   skip the hassle of trying to move your [TS]

01:11:02   domains over from where they are [TS]

01:11:04   currently registered trust me people if [TS]

01:11:08   you've ever tried to move a domain from [TS]

01:11:10   one place to another [TS]

01:11:11   just let a professional do it it is so [TS]

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01:11:31   hover dot-com and using the code [TS]

01:11:33   bullseye at checkout [TS]

01:11:35   thanks to hover for supporting the show [TS]

01:11:37   something I cannot believe we haven't [TS]

01:11:40   spoken about yet em and I don't know if [TS]

01:11:43   you know the results em the New Zealand [TS]

01:11:46   flag referendum [TS]

01:11:48   oh yeah so this sort of happened around [TS]

01:11:50   the time I I disappeared from twitter [TS]

01:11:52   for a while [TS]

01:11:53   mm and I think I was off Twitter long [TS]

01:11:56   enough that whatever the thing was die [TS]

01:11:58   down and so I actually don't know the [TS]

01:12:00   results [TS]

01:12:01   how well would you like to be informed [TS]

01:12:02   you know why don't you inform me if you [TS]

01:12:05   have a you have a link i have a link our [TS]

01:12:08   Center than just a second before i send [TS]

01:12:10   it to just to remind people listening [TS]

01:12:12   there were five they're supposed to be [TS]

01:12:15   four but there were five candidates that [TS]

01:12:18   all went head-to-head in New Zealand [TS]

01:12:20   right and whichever one of these winds [TS]

01:12:22   now goes off to later this year the [TS]

01:12:26   superbowl where it goes against the [TS]

01:12:28   existing user and flag so this is not [TS]

01:12:30   yet a new New Zealand flag [TS]

01:12:32   what this is is the decider of who is [TS]

01:12:35   going to be the contender right to go up [TS]

01:12:37   against the Old Faithful great so we had [TS]

01:12:40   five it was supposed to be four but as [TS]

01:12:42   we all know red peak not included at [TS]

01:12:44   last minute right because New Zealand [TS]

01:12:46   and now to the world that they will [TS]

01:12:48   negotiate with terrorists space again [TS]

01:12:50   that's what they said [TS]

01:12:51   so we had read bake we had the the [TS]

01:12:54   psychedelic spirally kaoru design that [TS]

01:12:57   gray favors we had a pretty lame attempt [TS]

01:13:03   at a silver fern right which was the one [TS]

01:13:06   which was the closest to what I think it [TS]

01:13:08   should have been so that's kind of my [TS]

01:13:09   favorite one even though I admit it [TS]

01:13:11   wasn't that great but which was all the [TS]

01:13:13   worst because it fell into the uncanny [TS]

01:13:14   valley of what the black and silver fern [TS]

01:13:18   should look like [TS]

01:13:19   close but not there and so way worse in [TS]

01:13:22   my mind and then we had bizarrely these [TS]

01:13:25   two other flags that were sort of a [TS]

01:13:27   hybrid of a phone and the existing New [TS]

01:13:30   Zealand flag and the only difference [TS]

01:13:32   between them was a very slight change to [TS]

01:13:34   the cannot slight change a change to the [TS]

01:13:37   color palette in the top left corner [TS]

01:13:38   right so those I thought of as the [TS]

01:13:40   committee design flag yeah let's have a [TS]

01:13:43   fern let's have the star pattern and [TS]

01:13:46   let's give people an option over the [TS]

01:13:48   colors those are the committee options [TS]

01:13:50   exactly so gray first of all I'm before [TS]

01:13:53   I tell you that the numbers and how the [TS]

01:13:55   voting went I think you need to see the [TS]

01:13:57   winner [TS]

01:13:57   ok so let's let's find out well actually [TS]

01:14:00   everyone in the world knows except me i [TS]

01:14:02   think we probably gonna get nothin up [TS]

01:14:04   yeah because of my weird semi cloistered [TS]

01:14:08   life huh i am not surprised [TS]

01:14:14   so the winner is the committee designed [TS]

01:14:17   flag with the black corner not the red [TS]

01:14:21   corner so of those two that looked [TS]

01:14:23   identical with the palace which one of [TS]

01:14:26   those ones was the winner a black [TS]

01:14:28   variant moon tell you what is [TS]

01:14:29   interesting and this is the part that [TS]

01:14:31   will get your juices flowing [TS]

01:14:33   m and that is how the voting went ok so [TS]

01:14:38   I'm going to send you another link to [TS]

01:14:39   the wikipedia page which should drop you [TS]

01:14:41   down to where the vote the tabulated [TS]

01:14:44   folks are here it comes you've sent me [TS]

01:14:46   the link of the votes broken down by [TS]

01:14:49   preferences and what's interesting great [TS]

01:14:52   because obviously they kept distributing [TS]

01:14:54   preferences until one flag got over [TS]

01:14:56   fifty percent of the vote right now as [TS]

01:14:57   we did has all good flag referendum [TS]

01:14:59   should and what's interesting is that [TS]

01:15:02   the eventual winner which i will call [TS]

01:15:04   black corner the was actually trailing [TS]

01:15:07   red corner for the first two rounds and [TS]

01:15:14   on the third round it was practically [TS]

01:15:16   neck and neck and then black corner one [TS]

01:15:18   on the final the final iteration the [TS]

01:15:20   final distribution so red corner was [TS]

01:15:23   leading the vote right until the end as [TS]

01:15:26   the as the Preferences got distributed [TS]

01:15:28   as the lower ones korra came last by the [TS]

01:15:30   way as those as they got distributed [TS]

01:15:33   those preferences [TS]

01:15:34   it was only right at the end that that [TS]

01:15:36   the black corner came and one they [TS]

01:15:38   basically have the vote that we wish we [TS]

01:15:40   had people we didn't we had a landslide [TS]

01:15:44   but New Zealand despite choosing add [TS]

01:15:46   flag had a cracking election these [TS]

01:15:48   results are great these are these are a [TS]

01:15:51   great example of preferential voting in [TS]

01:15:54   action [TS]

01:15:55   alright so we've got a couple couple [TS]

01:15:57   thoughts here [TS]

01:15:58   mhm the the first is I am NOT surprised [TS]

01:16:02   that my favorite design the chorus pyro [TS]

01:16:05   came in last [TS]

01:16:06   I i'm not i'm not surprised by that I [TS]

01:16:08   wouldn't have thought no that's going to [TS]

01:16:10   be a massive massive winner for people i [TS]

01:16:14   am surprised that the red corner flag [TS]

01:16:20   got the [TS]

01:16:23   his preference votes like that that was [TS]

01:16:26   if this was a first-past-the-post [TS]

01:16:28   election that one would have won because [TS]

01:16:31   to me that one is unambiguously the [TS]

01:16:35   worst and i think that one is awful and [TS]

01:16:39   every time I think I said in the last [TS]

01:16:41   podcast it just reminds me of like the [TS]

01:16:44   the national baseball league in America [TS]

01:16:46   it's just it's terrible i think it's [TS]

01:16:49   absolutely terrible and so I'm almost [TS]

01:16:51   appalled to see that it got 41 almost [TS]

01:16:55   forty-two percent of the vote on the [TS]

01:16:57   first round like that's that is quite [TS]

01:17:00   surprising to me I would not have [TS]

01:17:02   guessed like I'm not surprised Corey's [TS]

01:17:04   last even though it was my most favorite [TS]

01:17:06   one [TS]

01:17:06   I can't believe that god awful one came [TS]

01:17:10   very close to being the flag for the [TS]

01:17:13   super bowl of flags [TS]

01:17:14   I mean we'll link people to the to this [TS]

01:17:16   table of fights but I mean it was really [TS]

01:17:18   a two-horse race even even read peak [TS]

01:17:21   with it's sort of groundswell of support [TS]

01:17:22   who came a distant distant third [TS]

01:17:25   yeah it was really between the two [TS]

01:17:27   committee designs and my far i mean the [TS]

01:17:30   percentages are at the first preference [TS]

01:17:33   around it was forty percent for the [TS]

01:17:35   black corner committee design 42-percent [TS]

01:17:39   for the red corner committee design and [TS]

01:17:42   then red peak the terrorists negotiation [TS]

01:17:44   option was only at eight percent you [TS]

01:17:47   know and then it was five percent and [TS]

01:17:49   less than four percent after that so [TS]

01:17:51   yeah it was a it was a two-horse race by [TS]

01:17:54   by a huge margin by a huge margin lovely [TS]

01:17:57   lovely lovely statistics and numbers [TS]

01:17:59   they're terrible flags [TS]

01:18:01   that's interesting that's interesting [TS]

01:18:04   what we needed was the classy brilliance [TS]

01:18:07   of our flags and the fantastic numbers [TS]

01:18:10   of the new zealand vote then you have a [TS]

01:18:12   dream flag election if we're to cat 1.4 [TS]

01:18:17   million votes and it went all the way [TS]

01:18:18   through to the fourth iteration though [TS]

01:18:20   it would have taken us about 10 years to [TS]

01:18:22   do it [TS]

01:18:22   yeah that's that's why we would have [TS]

01:18:23   your nephew do i get the final thing [TS]

01:18:25   Brady if you were voting in the flag [TS]

01:18:27   referendum would you vote for the new [TS]

01:18:28   flag over the New Zealand flag if I was [TS]

01:18:30   Voting I would [TS]

01:18:33   my my gut says no I would stick with [TS]

01:18:38   what they have but not strongly i'm [TS]

01:18:43   probably 60 40 on that [TS]

01:18:44   hmm i'm assuming you would change [TS]

01:18:47   because you think change is crucial [TS]

01:18:49   no I don't think change is crucial I [TS]

01:18:51   just think that the current New Zealand [TS]

01:18:53   flag is terrible [TS]

01:18:54   I mean I met changes crucial in this [TS]

01:18:56   case not change is crucial at all times [TS]

01:18:58   after that everything of blankets David [TS]

01:19:01   are you for or against yes I hardly [TS]

01:19:03   think cgpgrey as mr. changes good as a [TS]

01:19:06   holiday but i think this case you in [TS]

01:19:07   this case you seem to be of the mind [TS]

01:19:09   that take what you can get basically to [TS]

01:19:11   get rid of that flag [TS]

01:19:13   yeah i'm always of the opinion just like [TS]

01:19:15   with voting referendums i'm looking at [TS]

01:19:17   you UK you can change and then you can [TS]

01:19:21   change again later if you want [TS]

01:19:23   right like if you--you'll never locked [TS]

01:19:24   into something forever don't let the [TS]

01:19:26   perfect be the enemy of the good [TS]

01:19:28   oh I would definitely vote for the [TS]

01:19:30   silver fern flag as its official name [TS]

01:19:32   black corner over the current New [TS]

01:19:35   Zealand flag [TS]

01:19:36   however i'll make a prediction now that [TS]

01:19:41   the new flag losses in the superbowl [TS]

01:19:45   that the current New Zealand flag wins [TS]

01:19:48   the head-to-head race i don't really [TS]

01:19:50   know you the the temperature in New [TS]

01:19:52   Zealand well enough to know to make a [TS]

01:19:54   prediction about that but my organic I'm [TS]

01:19:57   over there with the dipstick everyday [TS]

01:19:59   Brady i'm reading the polls I'm tracking [TS]

01:20:00   number [TS]

01:20:02   you didn't even know what flag was 300 [TS]

01:20:03   minutes i'm going to do in växjö pops [TS]

01:20:05   on the street you know I want to I want [TS]

01:20:07   to know what the average man what the [TS]

01:20:09   average sheep thinks that this [TS]

01:20:10   referendum but what do you think like if [TS]

01:20:12   if if this is you know this is Vegas and [TS]

01:20:15   we're putting money on the table like [TS]

01:20:16   what are you what are you going to bed [TS]

01:20:18   on I feel like New Zealand can be quite [TS]

01:20:20   progressive sometimes I feel like [TS]

01:20:21   there's a sort of country and they have [TS]

01:20:23   led the way a few times in sort of [TS]

01:20:24   social change so i can imagine them of [TS]

01:20:28   the country's I know a bit about i can [TS]

01:20:31   imagine the main country that will take [TS]

01:20:33   that attitude that you have come on [TS]

01:20:34   let's just change it and crack on let's [TS]

01:20:36   get things change so i think i think [TS]

01:20:38   it's a it's a better chance and if this [TS]

01:20:41   is happening in Australia for example or [TS]

01:20:43   the UK for heaven's sake [TS]

01:20:45   yeah but the UK doesn't need to change [TS]

01:20:46   it [TS]

01:20:46   because it's great i think i think i [TS]

01:20:49   might do it i think they might do it but [TS]

01:20:51   I didn't but when i set out what you [TS]

01:20:53   know the temperature over there [TS]

01:20:54   what I mean is I I don't know how the [TS]

01:20:57   black corner being the winner went down [TS]

01:20:59   like i don't know if it was like [TS]

01:21:01   everyone thinking well that was the best [TS]

01:21:02   option now let's move on [TS]

01:21:04   Lord this like still a lot of outrage I [TS]

01:21:06   don't know so that could that could be [TS]

01:21:08   affecting things [TS]

01:21:10   yeah yeah I could be but that's that's [TS]

01:21:13   my prediction we will see in what is it [TS]

01:21:16   says march here the final one is in [TS]

01:21:18   March Harry's have been supporting hello [TS]

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01:22:48   those starter set to a little bit more [TS]

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01:23:28   harry's now back to the show I had you [TS]

01:23:32   read a book and you had me watch a [TS]

01:23:35   netflix series this is the netflix [TS]

01:23:37   series cold making a murderer and I can [TS]

01:23:42   i send your message saying have you [TS]

01:23:43   watched it and telling you should an [TS]

01:23:46   amazing that you did amazing the United [TS]

01:23:48   what I told you to do i take your [TS]

01:23:50   recommendations very seriously ok ok so [TS]

01:23:52   so we are now doing just what we are [TS]

01:23:54   going to talk about that if you haven't [TS]

01:23:56   watched it yet and and intend to you [TS]

01:23:59   probably want to stop stop listening [TS]

01:24:01   because it is very like you know it's [TS]

01:24:03   very spoiler prone this is the example [TS]

01:24:06   of something that is nonfiction but then [TS]

01:24:08   I think definitely you can clap classify [TS]

01:24:11   as having spoilers so I think it's [TS]

01:24:15   actually interesting netflix did a [TS]

01:24:16   promotion where they put the first [TS]

01:24:18   episode up on youtube which i think is [TS]

01:24:20   interesting an interesting move i'll try [TS]

01:24:22   to find that link and i'll put in the [TS]

01:24:23   show notes so if you want to just watch [TS]

01:24:25   the first episode you can see it for [TS]

01:24:29   free on YouTube without having a netflix [TS]

01:24:31   account and you can just check it out [TS]

01:24:32   and see if you're interested [TS]

01:24:33   you don't have to commit yourself to [TS]

01:24:34   watching all 10 episodes i think i'm [TS]

01:24:38   going to attend or something here [TS]

01:24:39   something that's it that's a good idea [TS]

01:24:41   actually because at the end of that [TS]

01:24:42   first episode I imagined would make one [TS]

01:24:44   quite interested in engaging with what [TS]

01:24:46   might come next so it's a perfect [TS]

01:24:48   example of why I don't like to know [TS]

01:24:51   anything i just like to go into a cold [TS]

01:24:53   because the ending of that first episode [TS]

01:24:56   is quite the gut punch when you don't [TS]

01:24:58   know what's coming [TS]

01:24:58   yeah it was the same for me I knew [TS]

01:25:00   nothing going into the spoilers coming [TS]

01:25:02   up so do you want to give us the [TS]

01:25:03   thumbnail overview for people who are [TS]

01:25:05   continuing to listen without having [TS]

01:25:06   watched it [TS]

01:25:07   what is making a murderer about [TS]

01:25:08   making a murderer is the story of a guy [TS]

01:25:11   called Steven Avery who lives in [TS]

01:25:13   wisconsin he is jailed for a rape he [TS]

01:25:17   spends many many years in jail [TS]

01:25:19   how many was it was like some [TS]

01:25:20   ridiculousness 18 years 18 years in jail [TS]

01:25:23   and then it turns out he was innocent of [TS]

01:25:28   the crime [TS]

01:25:29   he's released he sues the the local [TS]

01:25:32   police who do not hold this man in very [TS]

01:25:34   high regard and very sure a very short [TS]

01:25:38   time later he is accused and charged [TS]

01:25:41   with the murder of a young woman called [TS]

01:25:43   Teresa hole buck and he claims he's been [TS]

01:25:47   set up by the police because they're out [TS]

01:25:48   to get him again the police say that's [TS]

01:25:50   ridiculous and he committed the murder [TS]

01:25:52   his nephew who's a young man named [TS]

01:25:56   Brendan Dassey is then also coach [TS]

01:25:59   charged with the murder it's claimed [TS]

01:26:00   they together murdered this woman and [TS]

01:26:03   the series over eight episodes basically [TS]

01:26:05   first of all deals with the [TS]

01:26:06   investigation and then the trial of [TS]

01:26:08   these two men to find out you know [TS]

01:26:11   did they or didn't they do it i think it [TS]

01:26:13   would be fair to say that this film has [TS]

01:26:15   been made in a very sympathetic way with [TS]

01:26:19   Steven Avery the accused the the [TS]

01:26:21   filmmakers certainly leave you thinking [TS]

01:26:26   most of the time that boy this this [TS]

01:26:28   seems like maybe this something dodgy [TS]

01:26:30   going on here in this bit of a travesty [TS]

01:26:32   of justice i would go so far as to say [TS]

01:26:34   you're my instinct was that it was [TS]

01:26:37   biased because sometimes it's so [TS]

01:26:40   jaw-dropping how biased seems and how [TS]

01:26:44   much he seems to have been set up that [TS]

01:26:45   you that that I'm thinking this can't be [TS]

01:26:47   real this they must be leaving loads of [TS]

01:26:49   stuff out they have since been accused [TS]

01:26:52   of leaving loads of stuff out and but [TS]

01:26:55   whether that's the case on up [TS]

01:26:57   I don't know yeah this is also allows [TS]

01:27:01   the delay with guns in the deal [TS]

01:27:03   you're always going to have to leave [TS]

01:27:04   stuff out you can talk about everything [TS]

01:27:06   in the world [TS]

01:27:07   yeah and so even doing a 10-episode [TS]

01:27:08   documentary about a single murder trial [TS]

01:27:13   that guess what [TS]

01:27:15   unless you are just showing everybody [TS]

01:27:18   everything that happened every minute of [TS]

01:27:20   every day in the actual trial you [TS]

01:27:22   have to leave stuff out and after week [TS]

01:27:25   after i finished watching this I did try [TS]

01:27:26   to dig around a little bit and to see [TS]

01:27:28   like what did the police department say [TS]

01:27:30   about the things that had been left out [TS]

01:27:32   in the trial and you know I i will agree [TS]

01:27:37   with you that the documentary is very [TS]

01:27:42   sympathetic to Steven Avery and perhaps [TS]

01:27:45   perhaps to a degree that almost does a [TS]

01:27:50   disservice to itself could it's a little [TS]

01:27:52   you know it's very much on his side [TS]

01:27:55   yeah but I did try to look into it just [TS]

01:27:57   a little bit and at least from what i [TS]

01:27:58   can see from the police departments [TS]

01:27:59   where they were saying oh the [TS]

01:28:01   documentary makers left out you know be [TS]

01:28:03   used these key things i like them i [TS]

01:28:05   thought i'm not impressed by that let [TS]

01:28:06   none of them are like a big smoking gun [TS]

01:28:08   other none of the things the police have [TS]

01:28:10   said since that made you think oh well I [TS]

01:28:12   find new that of course he was guilty [TS]

01:28:13   but there's a few bitty things that had [TS]

01:28:16   do you play exactly but nothing that [TS]

01:28:18   nothing like sensational yet and [TS]

01:28:21   everything that as a professional video [TS]

01:28:23   maker I feel like yeah obviously you'd [TS]

01:28:25   cut that like don't mention it doesn't [TS]

01:28:27   have any relevant doesn't matter like it [TS]

01:28:29   totally makes sense not to include every [TS]

01:28:31   single piece of evidence so I like the [TS]

01:28:33   police department has come up with [TS]

01:28:34   nothing [TS]

01:28:35   from my perspective that I find like oh [TS]

01:28:37   wow it's amazing i wouldn't go so far as [TS]

01:28:39   to say nothing but i would say nothing [TS]

01:28:42   sensational but there are a few things [TS]

01:28:45   there are a few things there are few [TS]

01:28:47   things i think could probably could have [TS]

01:28:48   been slaughtered in 28 hours of [TS]

01:28:50   television without slowing things down [TS]

01:28:52   too much but yeah but everybody always [TS]

01:28:54   thinks that right like everybody wants [TS]

01:28:56   their their additional thing included [TS]

01:28:58   but well I'm no I think I'm quite [TS]

01:29:00   partial but you are you are impartial [TS]

01:29:02   really that we're bringing the [TS]

01:29:04   infomercial but I did like the series I [TS]

01:29:06   felt like it was a really good use of my [TS]

01:29:08   time [TS]

01:29:08   yeah after i really recommend it i like [TS]

01:29:11   to quite a lot [TS]

01:29:12   the thing is just like with cereal [TS]

01:29:16   IIF I have a hard time with these real [TS]

01:29:20   crime things in no small part because i [TS]

01:29:23   have a hell of a time keeping everybody [TS]

01:29:25   straight like all of the humans involved [TS]

01:29:27   and their relation to each other and [TS]

01:29:30   like who knew what when [TS]

01:29:31   I this doesn't fit very naturally into [TS]

01:29:35   my brain and I think that for someone [TS]

01:29:38   like me who has a hard time following [TS]

01:29:39   some of those details it did a very good [TS]

01:29:41   job of trying to constantly remind you [TS]

01:29:44   who everybody is what is the [TS]

01:29:47   relationship to each other showing the [TS]

01:29:49   org chart of the police constantly up on [TS]

01:29:52   the screen and highlighting this person [TS]

01:29:54   spoke to that person you know when was [TS]

01:29:55   this in that I have to say I think it [TS]

01:29:57   was very very well made for a topic [TS]

01:30:01   we're even if it was just ten percent [TS]

01:30:05   worse i would have been fifty percent [TS]

01:30:07   more lost like maybe they did a good job [TS]

01:30:09   holding it together for me anyway [TS]

01:30:12   mm so I i really liked it i have set I [TS]

01:30:14   like too much more than i thought i [TS]

01:30:16   would let us know as as always with [TS]

01:30:19   these things sort of binge watch it all [TS]

01:30:20   in a row yesterday [TS]

01:30:22   yes Oh house like all of the episodes [TS]

01:30:25   like blur together a little bit but i [TS]

01:30:28   also think if i had watched this over [TS]

01:30:29   any length of time I wouldn't have had a [TS]

01:30:31   prayer of holding it all together in my [TS]

01:30:34   head so aside from finding a sort of an [TS]

01:30:39   entertaining and engaging addicted to [TS]

01:30:41   come away with any kind of new thoughts [TS]

01:30:43   about ya criminal justice system has [TS]

01:30:47   landed [TS]

01:30:47   no I mostly just found this man's false [TS]

01:30:49   imprisonment like quite entertaining for [TS]

01:30:51   me for free [TS]

01:30:53   look at I don't know what you want me to [TS]

01:30:55   say but like in some ways this is the [TS]

01:30:57   kind of thing that just reaffirms many [TS]

01:31:00   of my thoughts about the criminal [TS]

01:31:02   justice system [TS]

01:31:03   yeah like [TS]

01:31:06   you know it's just every affirms many of [TS]

01:31:10   my thoughts about what people imagine [TS]

01:31:11   themselves to be I let's just let's just [TS]

01:31:15   take what i think is is the perhaps the [TS]

01:31:18   most galling and clear of all of the [TS]

01:31:21   things is not Steven Avery but talking [TS]

01:31:24   about his cousin brandon yes right who [TS]

01:31:28   who is this kid who was interrogated by [TS]

01:31:32   the police over this three-and-a-half [TS]

01:31:36   hour period with out any legal defense [TS]

01:31:40   present without his mother present and [TS]

01:31:44   from my perspective and I think if you [TS]

01:31:46   see the video most people would agree is [TS]

01:31:48   basically like not exactly bleed but [TS]

01:31:51   just tricked into a false confession is [TS]

01:31:55   also you cannot overemphasize how much [TS]

01:31:58   he is a guy who's not blessed with [TS]

01:32:00   normal intelligence [TS]

01:32:03   yes so is like it is yeah it's certainly [TS]

01:32:06   probably the most jaw-dropping part of [TS]

01:32:08   the whole series isn't the way and how [TS]

01:32:11   he's thrown to the Lions by his defense [TS]

01:32:14   lawyer as well like at times is his [TS]

01:32:17   first offense that actually conspires [TS]

01:32:18   against him to have this done to him as [TS]

01:32:20   well which is even more amazing [TS]

01:32:22   yeah yeah i mean it again even even [TS]

01:32:23   ignoring hope it's just like criminal [TS]

01:32:27   negligence on the part of his own lawyer [TS]

01:32:28   people will say things like oh but if [TS]

01:32:32   they were innocent why why would this [TS]

01:32:33   person give a false confession that [TS]

01:32:36   people just imagine themselves in ideal [TS]

01:32:39   circumstances always and so people think [TS]

01:32:41   oh you know we're having a dinner [TS]

01:32:44   conversation here on i'm comfortable and [TS]

01:32:47   having a glass of wine and say oh I [TS]

01:32:48   would never give a false confession like [TS]

01:32:51   okay right but let's actually put you in [TS]

01:32:54   a high-pressure situation and the the [TS]

01:32:57   tapes of the police interviews are just [TS]

01:32:59   brutal when you hear the police just [TS]

01:33:03   constantly saying the same things over [TS]

01:33:05   and over again like tell us why you [TS]

01:33:08   killed or tell us why you killed her you [TS]

01:33:09   know it or like building it up piece by [TS]

01:33:12   piece [TS]

01:33:12   you sure you didn't go to his house are [TS]

01:33:14   you sure you didn't go to his house [TS]

01:33:16   and people overestimate their own [TS]

01:33:20   ability to withstand that kind of thing [TS]

01:33:22   I don't know gray I'm not a hundred [TS]

01:33:24   percent agree with you there [TS]

01:33:26   I i think what was time to him was put [TS]

01:33:28   was wrong and like a travesty and when [TS]

01:33:31   you watch it you just can't believe what [TS]

01:33:32   you're saying but he wasn't like he [TS]

01:33:35   wasn't being like water board or tied up [TS]

01:33:37   upside down with bamboo shoots under his [TS]

01:33:39   fingernails like he's sitting in a [TS]

01:33:41   comfortable chair he's being asked tough [TS]

01:33:43   questions but it is a murder [TS]

01:33:44   investigation [TS]

01:33:45   yeah and and he does like he does admit [TS]

01:33:48   admit to things and the part of me that [TS]

01:33:51   I mean he should have had a lawyer and [TS]

01:33:54   his parents should have been there and [TS]

01:33:56   the police were really wrong for that [TS]

01:33:58   reason but the part of me that was most [TS]

01:34:00   amazed is that people will admit to a [TS]

01:34:04   murder under those circumstances just so [TS]

01:34:06   they can go home will go back to school [TS]

01:34:08   like that there are people who who are [TS]

01:34:10   that but this is this is exactly the [TS]

01:34:13   unexpected human behavior yeah everybody [TS]

01:34:17   likes to think oh you know I wouldn't i [TS]

01:34:20   wouldn't give a false confession if I [TS]

01:34:22   was just sitting on a couch [TS]

01:34:23   I wouldn't gray right yeah of course of [TS]

01:34:25   course your grade chorus right but the [TS]

01:34:28   thing is we know that that is not the [TS]

01:34:30   case like and no through science how [TS]

01:34:33   remarkably easy it is to inject false [TS]

01:34:38   memories into people right [TS]

01:34:40   remarkably easy like this this is this [TS]

01:34:43   is precisely the point and I just I get [TS]

01:34:45   frustrated when people just imagine that [TS]

01:34:48   that I go an innocent person would never [TS]

01:34:50   confess that we know that that's not the [TS]

01:34:52   case we absolutely know that that's not [TS]

01:34:55   the case i guess the thing that amazed [TS]

01:34:57   me was how easy it was to do but as you [TS]

01:34:59   said the kid is not a bright kid em [TS]

01:35:02   right i mean they said his IQ was like [TS]

01:35:05   65 or 70 like he's a borderline retarded [TS]

01:35:07   kid and so and then he admits to the [TS]

01:35:10   murder think that's great now I can go [TS]

01:35:12   back to school and hand in my homework [TS]

01:35:14   yeah they getting it's so clear he has [TS]

01:35:17   no concept really of what's going on and [TS]

01:35:19   I mean there's a few points where his [TS]

01:35:21   vocabulary is so limited that it's like [TS]

01:35:25   he doesn't even know what he's agreeing [TS]

01:35:26   to he doesn't know if people [TS]

01:35:29   are confirming or denying the thing with [TS]

01:35:31   you saying because he doesn't know words [TS]

01:35:33   like confirm or deny it's just awful to [TS]

01:35:36   watch and like ask a grown adults like [TS]

01:35:40   Steven Avery and his his cousin a grown [TS]

01:35:44   adults is also interviewed under brutal [TS]

01:35:47   circumstances and he does not elicit a [TS]

01:35:49   false confession so again as with many [TS]

01:35:51   things there is a statistical outcome [TS]

01:35:53   right but you can't say that like no one [TS]

01:35:56   will ever give a false confession are [TS]

01:35:59   now I'm there and when I was joking [TS]

01:36:00   saying I wouldn't do it I probably would [TS]

01:36:02   do if I was being water boarded and had [TS]

01:36:04   boots under my fingernails but but i bet [TS]

01:36:07   we could get you to give a false [TS]

01:36:08   confession under less circumstance and [TS]

01:36:10   probably for a kit kat diet pepsi yeah [TS]

01:36:12   exactly the thing the thing that I write [TS]

01:36:19   it down what did he say [TS]

01:36:20   hold on ok so there was a thing that [TS]

01:36:22   just it just broke my heart so again [TS]

01:36:26   it's it's this that they're talking [TS]

01:36:28   about Brendan this kid giving this false [TS]

01:36:30   confession and his mom is asking him [TS]

01:36:35   like why did he give this confession and [TS]

01:36:39   you know he says oh I you know I don't [TS]

01:36:42   know I don't know and and at one point [TS]

01:36:44   he said something like they kept asking [TS]

01:36:49   me these questions and I guess the [TS]

01:36:55   answers for you [TS]

01:36:57   I guests because that's what I do with [TS]

01:37:01   my homework and the thing that broke my [TS]

01:37:05   heart about that is I have totally done [TS]

01:37:10   the same kind of false confession [TS]

01:37:13   tactics with my own students under [TS]

01:37:15   different circumstances which is the [TS]

01:37:18   like are you sure you're done with this [TS]

01:37:20   paper right which is basically saying [TS]

01:37:22   like something wrong on this piece of [TS]

01:37:23   paper and like this this is just what [TS]

01:37:27   happens in schools of like that you want [TS]

01:37:29   to go with option A or option B this [TS]

01:37:32   this kid who's not a bright kid has [TS]

01:37:35   almost certainly grown up in an [TS]

01:37:36   environment where this is what adults [TS]

01:37:38   are doing just all the time around [TS]

01:37:39   right half like so we want you to say [TS]

01:37:43   this thing we don't want you to say this [TS]

01:37:45   thing like pickup from from what I'm [TS]

01:37:48   putting down like which way you should [TS]

01:37:49   go with this kid and you know I like i [TS]

01:37:52   know i know i have done that with dumb [TS]

01:37:55   kids in class where they're saying some [TS]

01:37:57   stuff and you're just like you're just [TS]

01:37:58   trying to move along like why don't know [TS]

01:38:01   what do you think about this option like [TS]

01:38:03   oh that option sounds like great what [TS]

01:38:06   the police it was so like it wasn't even [TS]

01:38:08   that subtle though I mean I can't think [TS]

01:38:10   of a specific example but it was almost [TS]

01:38:12   along the lines of like you know to make [TS]

01:38:14   something up but to make it similar did [TS]

01:38:16   you cut with what part of her body did [TS]

01:38:18   you cut and he would say fort and I go [TS]

01:38:20   no shin no knee know by and he was like [TS]

01:38:24   guessing every single part of the body [TS]

01:38:25   until he finally he would say the one [TS]

01:38:27   they wanted and then go are so you did [TS]

01:38:30   you know he had to ear right have to hit [TS]

01:38:32   19 other body parts yeah this is it but [TS]

01:38:35   this is exactly how false confessions [TS]

01:38:37   get made right is as soon as you get the [TS]

01:38:40   person to just agree a little bit like [TS]

01:38:42   you you planted that seed in their mind [TS]

01:38:44   and then like you start going over the [TS]

01:38:45   whole thing like that's ok let's take it [TS]

01:38:47   from the beginning so you said you did [TS]

01:38:48   go to his house right you did step [TS]

01:38:50   inside you'd go here and now you're [TS]

01:38:52   saying you did cut her in the knee [TS]

01:38:54   I like you just another what happened [TS]

01:38:57   next like tell us what happened next and [TS]

01:38:58   you and you just keep badgering for some [TS]

01:39:00   detailing to get that other detail and [TS]

01:39:02   then you start over again and be like [TS]

01:39:03   okay let's go through and make sure we [TS]

01:39:05   have the story again like and just for [TS]

01:39:08   hours and hours and hours of this [TS]

01:39:10   p-people fold in ways that are our [TS]

01:39:13   unexpected and so the the Brendan thing [TS]

01:39:15   is is the absolute the worst the most [TS]

01:39:18   appalling one that just makes me sad in [TS]

01:39:20   so many ways that the police have an [TS]

01:39:23   incentive to get a confession out of [TS]

01:39:25   someone [TS]

01:39:26   humans bend in this way that is [TS]

01:39:28   remarkably unexpected and because it is [TS]

01:39:31   unexpected juries are very hard to [TS]

01:39:34   convince that false confessions exists [TS]

01:39:37   is just like a perfect storm of [TS]

01:39:39   awfulness in the judicial system it was [TS]

01:39:42   remarkable the way the two trials like [TS]

01:39:44   attacked in completely different ways as [TS]

01:39:46   well it was almost like you want that do [TS]

01:39:48   that like to save that the murder happen [TS]

01:39:51   111 try and then go to the other [TS]

01:39:53   first trial and the exact same guy [TS]

01:39:55   saying that happened in a completely [TS]

01:39:56   different way like wow I'm amazed I'm [TS]

01:40:00   amazed you can do that well that this to [TS]

01:40:02   me again for people who are just [TS]

01:40:04   listening to us talk about this now like [TS]

01:40:06   they ran two separate murder trials for [TS]

01:40:08   these two different guys Brenden and [TS]

01:40:10   Stephen and yes they were [TS]

01:40:12   this state was presenting different [TS]

01:40:14   theories about the murders at each just [TS]

01:40:18   seems unbelievable but it's a it's a [TS]

01:40:20   reminder of-of course the judicial [TS]

01:40:23   system is this thing that is about [TS]

01:40:24   procedure and it is about trying to [TS]

01:40:26   convince people and the thing that i [TS]

01:40:29   really dislike about it is that this [TS]

01:40:31   state has incentives to win and because [TS]

01:40:35   the state has an incentive to win they [TS]

01:40:38   participate in things that seem [TS]

01:40:41   obviously counter to what you think is [TS]

01:40:44   truth seeking behavior and it shouldn't [TS]

01:40:48   be unexpected when you give people [TS]

01:40:49   incentives to win that they want to win [TS]

01:40:51   that prosecutors have careers that the [TS]

01:40:54   the Chief of Police has a reputation to [TS]

01:40:57   uphold like I don't know if there's a [TS]

01:41:00   great way around it but it's just it is [TS]

01:41:02   not unexpected [TS]

01:41:04   it's just sad to see it so laid out [TS]

01:41:07   taking away like you know profession [TS]

01:41:09   professional pride and career [TS]

01:41:10   progression and all those reasons that [TS]

01:41:12   the state is incentivized to win take [TS]

01:41:14   all that away and pretend they were just [TS]

01:41:16   all-out realistic people who was serving [TS]

01:41:18   us wrap who didn't have their own [TS]

01:41:20   careers to think about who shouldn't [TS]

01:41:24   they still be incentivized to win [TS]

01:41:25   because the bad guys break the rules as [TS]

01:41:29   well like it's not like the bad guys go [TS]

01:41:31   into court and saying okay let's just [TS]

01:41:33   find out the facts like the bad guys are [TS]

01:41:35   obstructing I so like obstructing and [TS]

01:41:39   doing the wrong thing so much that don't [TS]

01:41:40   the good guys need like some kind of [TS]

01:41:43   like don't need to fight back in the [TS]

01:41:45   interest of Justice if they just SAT [TS]

01:41:46   there passively and accepted everything [TS]

01:41:49   I mean well I'm not sure what you mean [TS]

01:41:51   by the bad guys break the rules like I [TS]

01:41:53   don't think that the defense is allowed [TS]

01:41:56   to break rules in court [TS]

01:41:58   what do you mean by break the room is [TS]

01:41:59   like it's like if I rob a bank [TS]

01:42:04   and then the police think I robbed the [TS]

01:42:06   bank and take me to the core [TS]

01:42:08   it's not like we all held up by hand to [TS]

01:42:10   say ok there's no more good guys and bad [TS]

01:42:11   guys let's just walk in a room and [TS]

01:42:13   everyone told the truth and then justice [TS]

01:42:16   will be done like once the trial starts [TS]

01:42:19   like the bad guys are still lying and [TS]

01:42:21   they're twisting and they're tricking [TS]

01:42:24   and their big tactical and if the [TS]

01:42:26   prosecution wasn't allowed to be [TS]

01:42:28   technical [TS]

01:42:29   I'm not saying the prosecution should [TS]

01:42:30   lie but if the prosecution wasn't [TS]

01:42:32   allowed to be tactical in return [TS]

01:42:34   wouldn't wouldn't the prosecution be [TS]

01:42:37   turning up to a gunfight with a knife [TS]

01:42:38   like wouldn't it be a case of like they [TS]

01:42:41   need the full armory that is being used [TS]

01:42:43   by the defense including the use of [TS]

01:42:45   tactics and strategy and like so this is [TS]

01:42:50   this is that this is the thing right [TS]

01:42:51   this is an interesting point that I [TS]

01:42:53   think comes up when I argue with people [TS]

01:42:54   about the judicial system sometimes it [TS]

01:42:56   is one I always find it interesting how [TS]

01:43:01   often everybody is tempted to frame it [TS]

01:43:04   in these terms there is the prosecutor [TS]

01:43:07   and there is a criminal [TS]

01:43:09   okay well we're already starting from a [TS]

01:43:12   bad place right that there is there is [TS]

01:43:16   someone who is on the defense who is [TS]

01:43:18   suspected of this crime [TS]

01:43:20   yeah but we're pretty were supposed to [TS]

01:43:22   presume that they are innocent [TS]

01:43:24   yeah right but if you actually speak to [TS]

01:43:27   people [TS]

01:43:28   nobody's nobody works from that starting [TS]

01:43:31   position like everybody in their mind is [TS]

01:43:33   imagining like yeah okay we say that but [TS]

01:43:36   surely most of the time they're bad [TS]

01:43:38   people [TS]

01:43:39   now I wasn't really doing i can see what [TS]

01:43:41   sounds that way but I wasn't really [TS]

01:43:43   doing that what I was doing was i'm not [TS]

01:43:44   saying that you do not have no items [TS]

01:43:46   using I was posing to you the [TS]

01:43:48   hypothetical case where the person is [TS]

01:43:50   guilty and they're going to get away [TS]

01:43:52   with it if we don't arm the prosecution [TS]

01:43:55   with the same tools we are the defense [TS]

01:43:57   with ya [TS]

01:43:58   also also saying we shouldn't you know [TS]

01:44:00   that the prosecution shouldn't be so [TS]

01:44:02   focused on winning they should be [TS]

01:44:04   focused on truth but if they don't focus [TS]

01:44:06   on winning i think they they stay don't [TS]

01:44:09   use the tools of winning and that will [TS]

01:44:11   allow the very occasional guilty person [TS]

01:44:14   who gets charged with a crime to get [TS]

01:44:16   away with it in your scenario [TS]

01:44:18   we're imagining that humans are just [TS]

01:44:19   perfectly altruistic right and so [TS]

01:44:21   presuming that the prosecution is [TS]

01:44:25   convinced that the defendant is guilty [TS]

01:44:27   that provides them an incentive to want [TS]

01:44:29   to win now candidate that is separate [TS]

01:44:32   that is separate from their careers [TS]

01:44:33   because nobody wants to see a murderer [TS]

01:44:37   go free and that like there's not what [TS]

01:44:39   anybody really wants but the thing is [TS]

01:44:41   like here's here's here's my fundamental [TS]

01:44:45   problem with this everything in life is [TS]

01:44:52   a dial right that you are turning up or [TS]

01:44:57   you're turning down and people always [TS]

01:45:00   want to argue about where is the correct [TS]

01:45:04   place to turn that dial and I don't [TS]

01:45:07   think this is a reasonable argument to [TS]

01:45:09   have and I think you have to have an [TS]

01:45:10   argument about look we will never know [TS]

01:45:12   the exact place to turn the dial and so [TS]

01:45:15   the question is do we want to have it [TS]

01:45:17   turn too high or too low and my feeling [TS]

01:45:21   with something like a judicial system is [TS]

01:45:25   that you should have the dial turned to [TS]

01:45:28   high in favor of the defendant because [TS]

01:45:33   the consequence of being wrong is severe [TS]

01:45:38   it is deriving a person of their freedom [TS]

01:45:43   of the only life they will ever get [TS]

01:45:48   and so if you are wrong that that is a [TS]

01:45:53   tragedy and now that this is where it [TS]

01:45:55   comes down to a personal assessment but [TS]

01:45:57   I i think it is far far worse to [TS]

01:46:04   wrongfully in prison an innocent person [TS]

01:46:07   then it is too late guilty person go [TS]

01:46:10   free [TS]

01:46:11   now you can make an argument for the [TS]

01:46:13   other side like this last night we were [TS]

01:46:16   discussing before everything comes down [TS]

01:46:17   to some fundamental assumption but that [TS]

01:46:19   is my feeling that an innocent [TS]

01:46:21   conviction is vastly worse and so I am [TS]

01:46:26   willing to turn that dial quite high in [TS]

01:46:28   defense of [TS]

01:46:29   the advantage should be to a free man [TS]

01:46:34   who was just pulled off the streets by [TS]

01:46:36   the police and then the police have to [TS]

01:46:38   say here is the evidence for why we [TS]

01:46:41   think this person should be removed from [TS]

01:46:44   society possibly until they die [TS]

01:46:47   the defense is arguing against police [TS]

01:46:49   procedure and people go like oh what [TS]

01:46:50   they're trying to put a murderer away [TS]

01:46:52   like now you but you you can't think [TS]

01:46:54   about the particular situation if if you [TS]

01:46:58   like let's say you're convinced even [TS]

01:46:59   Avery is an absolute murderer you [TS]

01:47:01   convinced of it is your stance that this [TS]

01:47:06   state should be allowed to decide when [TS]

01:47:09   they don't want to follow procedures to [TS]

01:47:12   put someone in prison like at we don't [TS]

01:47:15   need to worry about how we handle the [TS]

01:47:16   blood and we don't need to worry about [TS]

01:47:18   people signing in and out of of crime [TS]

01:47:20   scenes and we don't need to worry that [TS]

01:47:22   people who were banned from being on the [TS]

01:47:24   crime scene were actually on the crime [TS]

01:47:26   scene like you can't give the [TS]

01:47:28   prosecution that kind of power that's [TS]

01:47:30   crazy power and and this to me is like [TS]

01:47:33   with the Stephen a everything is just [TS]

01:47:34   it's astounded to see how they don't [TS]

01:47:38   follow the rules and my feeling is like [TS]

01:47:41   man if i'm sitting on a jury as we [TS]

01:47:43   discussed before number one [TS]

01:47:45   my thought is well human testimony is [TS]

01:47:47   almost worthless including confessions [TS]

01:47:49   so almost anything that anybody says [TS]

01:47:51   it's like I'm immediately just throwing [TS]

01:47:53   it out [TS]

01:47:54   he's you say you're guilty Brendan I [TS]

01:47:55   don't even care that you say it right [TS]

01:47:57   because I'm just not interested what [TS]

01:47:58   physical evidence do you have [TS]

01:48:00   and so the state had all of this [TS]

01:48:01   physical evidence they had a key that [TS]

01:48:03   was found in the house they had Steven [TS]

01:48:04   Avery's blood in a car they found her [TS]

01:48:06   bones in a pit behind his house [TS]

01:48:08   oh ok well that's that's pretty it's [TS]

01:48:10   pretty pretty damning physical evidence [TS]

01:48:12   their government did you follow all of [TS]

01:48:15   the procedures for collecting this [TS]

01:48:17   evidence and then they go oh no actually [TS]

01:48:19   there were some problems collecting it's [TS]

01:48:21   like okay well now all of this evidence [TS]

01:48:22   is garbage and now you have nothing like [TS]

01:48:25   that like that's that's my view on it [TS]

01:48:26   like if if the state doesn't doesn't [TS]

01:48:29   have to follow the procedures that's [TS]

01:48:31   crazytown that is that is insanity it's [TS]

01:48:35   absolutely insanity [TS]

01:48:38   so regardless of what the filmmakers say [TS]

01:48:40   i'm not entirely clear what the [TS]

01:48:41   filmmakers say about this but I think [TS]

01:48:44   the purpose of the film was to convey [TS]

01:48:45   that miscarriage of justice has been [TS]

01:48:47   done [TS]

01:48:48   Steven Avery and Brendan Dassey but [TS]

01:48:50   that's concentrated and Steven Avery for [TS]

01:48:52   a minute and certainly a lot of other [TS]

01:48:53   people who've watched it feel this way [TS]

01:48:55   we see all these petitions to the White [TS]

01:48:56   House and people saying this needs to be [TS]

01:48:58   pardoned and whatever did it work on you [TS]

01:49:00   do you feel a miscarriage of justice has [TS]

01:49:03   happened a second time to this man [TS]

01:49:07   I mean look at it this is we're just at [TS]

01:49:15   the serial thing again [TS]

01:49:16   yeah I know you and I just a couple of [TS]

01:49:17   guys yeah we're a couple guys know but [TS]

01:49:20   my feeling is there it it's astounding [TS]

01:49:23   that this jury convicted him it's [TS]

01:49:26   astounding and one of the help of the [TS]

01:49:31   other things that you don't like Brady [TS]

01:49:33   but you know it's just my thought on [TS]

01:49:38   this is is it was just a case of of they [TS]

01:49:42   show how the police department just was [TS]

01:49:45   constantly before the trial talking [TS]

01:49:48   about all of the gruesome details about [TS]

01:49:50   Steven Avery and the confession and the [TS]

01:49:53   murder and like how awful it was in the [TS]

01:49:55   police chief gives this dramatic press [TS]

01:49:57   conference about like who hide your [TS]

01:49:59   children behind your skirt while I [TS]

01:50:00   discussed this horrible murder that has [TS]

01:50:02   taken place that was crazy like to go [TS]

01:50:04   away with that press conference before [TS]

01:50:05   the trial the American justice system [TS]

01:50:08   never ceases to amaze me for things yet [TS]

01:50:09   the use of the median trial by media [TS]

01:50:12   yeah it's astounding and ages an example [TS]

01:50:16   of the police and the media together [TS]

01:50:21   poisoning the minds of everyone who [TS]

01:50:25   could potentially participate in this [TS]

01:50:27   jury-rigged it's it's amazing it's [TS]

01:50:32   amazing and speaking of human biases the [TS]

01:50:34   way someone first here's something like [TS]

01:50:37   Steven Avery is murderer [TS]

01:50:39   you almost can't undo a first impression [TS]

01:50:42   that somebody has em it's almost [TS]

01:50:45   impossible this is a thing called the [TS]

01:50:47   backfire effect which it like it's it's [TS]

01:50:49   astounding but sometimes like if some [TS]

01:50:51   and here's something that is wrong [TS]

01:50:53   you're very attempt to explain why it's [TS]

01:50:55   wrong end up convincing the person even [TS]

01:50:57   more that their first impression was [TS]

01:50:59   correct [TS]

01:51:00   i agree with you like I cannot believe [TS]

01:51:02   whenever it happens that the media is [TS]

01:51:05   allowed to just discuss accusations of [TS]

01:51:09   anyone on any crime like I find that [TS]

01:51:12   amazing it like because i think that [TS]

01:51:17   there's a little bit of you know of just [TS]

01:51:20   desserts for the police commissioner in [TS]

01:51:22   this case where you know he was using [TS]

01:51:24   all of these press conferences to [TS]

01:51:27   totally just poison the well for Steven [TS]

01:51:29   Avery on the jury and in the end like he [TS]

01:51:32   is he's talking to some reporter who's [TS]

01:51:34   gotten sex text messages that he sent [TS]

01:51:36   two people he's worked with a special [TS]

01:51:39   prosecutor was in the end and the [TS]

01:51:41   reporter is like oh but if if you if you [TS]

01:51:44   have there's nothing if you haven't done [TS]

01:51:47   anything you have nothing to worry about [TS]

01:51:48   right and any sense of the reporters [TS]

01:51:50   like oh come on you know full well as I [TS]

01:51:52   do that just the accusation will destroy [TS]

01:51:54   someone [TS]

01:51:55   yeah it's like yeah you bastard you're [TS]

01:51:57   exactly right [TS]

01:51:58   yeah so I don't know it's just in [TS]

01:52:01   addition to what seemed to me to answer [TS]

01:52:03   your question a horrific miscarriage of [TS]

01:52:07   justice [TS]

01:52:08   it is also just fit right into a lot of [TS]

01:52:11   my preconceptions about like man the way [TS]

01:52:14   the media is allowed to report on [TS]

01:52:17   criminal affairs are awful and it's [TS]

01:52:21   quite that stuff that doesn't that [TS]

01:52:22   doesn't happen in the UK and no and [TS]

01:52:25   Australia and you know they're quiet [TS]

01:52:26   they're very strict rules about [TS]

01:52:28   reporting court cases and certainly the [TS]

01:52:30   country's I've working as a journalist [TS]

01:52:32   that's why when i watch this I'm like it [TS]

01:52:34   almost seems like a like a joke to me [TS]

01:52:37   like made up because the things they're [TS]

01:52:38   doing you just can't [TS]

01:52:40   he's Kentucky's couldn't do you need the [TS]

01:52:42   journalists would be in jail [TS]

01:52:43   I honestly think all of those [TS]

01:52:45   journalists should be in jail and the [TS]

01:52:47   court TV the court TV astounds me how [TS]

01:52:49   they're like they're like sports [TS]

01:52:51   commentators and pundits and they're [TS]

01:52:52   predicting what might happen next and [TS]

01:52:55   who won that day's play and do you think [TS]

01:52:59   he's do you think like I just can't [TS]

01:53:01   believe this cantilever it's just like [TS]

01:53:03   sport is that so [TS]

01:53:04   like gladiators or something and that to [TS]

01:53:07   me just feeds the whole problem like [TS]

01:53:09   everybody starts picking sides and then [TS]

01:53:11   all of a sudden you have once again with [TS]

01:53:13   humans love to do is they divided [TS]

01:53:14   themselves into tribes and then it [TS]

01:53:16   becomes more about sticking to your side [TS]

01:53:18   as opposed to any kind of trying to sort [TS]

01:53:21   out what is what is really right [TS]

01:53:23   aight immediately it's just awful and [TS]

01:53:26   Africa it's just it's like the thing I [TS]

01:53:31   keep thinking of is there some kind of [TS]

01:53:32   horrible cross between like whores and [TS]

01:53:35   vultures because the way they say flock [TS]

01:53:38   around every person who's involved in [TS]

01:53:40   this trial is just just despicable the [TS]

01:53:44   way they're picking apart the emotional [TS]

01:53:47   trauma of other people for their own [TS]

01:53:49   benefit and careers still haven't [TS]

01:53:52   answered my question what do you think [TS]

01:53:54   he did that well you asked if it was a [TS]

01:53:57   miscarriage of justice which I would say [TS]

01:53:59   yes again no way he should have been [TS]

01:54:01   convicted under those circumstances [TS]

01:54:03   yeah if I have to put money on the table [TS]

01:54:08   hmm i would say no he didn't do it right [TS]

01:54:13   much more so than with cereal i feel [TS]

01:54:15   like i'm very aware of having watched a [TS]

01:54:17   thing that is super favorable to this [TS]

01:54:20   person [TS]

01:54:20   mm but my feeling is know that this guy [TS]

01:54:24   didn't do it he got framed to me if [TS]

01:54:28   that's true isn't it amazing how [TS]

01:54:31   audacious the police work to do this and [TS]

01:54:34   almost like it's like how do you think [TS]

01:54:37   you could get away with that will they [TS]

01:54:38   do get away with it but how do you think [TS]

01:54:39   you get away with that with all that [TS]

01:54:40   attention but part of me thinks it's [TS]

01:54:43   probably some slight backwater this [TS]

01:54:44   matter what county in wisconsin and they [TS]

01:54:47   never realized it was going to become [TS]

01:54:48   this big famous netflix series in a big [TS]

01:54:51   national story and yeah well this is I [TS]

01:54:54   mean I hate to say it but I think like [TS]

01:54:55   small towns have particular horrors in [TS]

01:54:58   them and then and this this kind of [TS]

01:55:00   small town [TS]

01:55:04   you know big hats kind of thing like [TS]

01:55:06   it's just horrifying consumed like I [TS]

01:55:08   think it's not surprising that this kind [TS]

01:55:11   of corruption in the police department [TS]

01:55:13   can happen something to point out that [TS]

01:55:16   which i think i'm not sure how great [TS]

01:55:18   this the show tries to wrap it up with [TS]

01:55:20   us but the defense lawyer doesn't make [TS]

01:55:22   the point which i think is true which is [TS]

01:55:23   that I don't think that anybody in the [TS]

01:55:25   police department is like oh man we we [TS]

01:55:27   can't wait to frame this guy and we're [TS]

01:55:29   gonna get him [TS]

01:55:30   I i think they are all just horrific Lee [TS]

01:55:35   biased against this person [TS]

01:55:37   hmm and they all felt like they were [TS]

01:55:41   moving this along to make sure that they [TS]

01:55:43   can put him in prison that you know we [TS]

01:55:46   haven't spoken about it but there are [TS]

01:55:47   very many reasons why the like the [TS]

01:55:49   family wasn't liked by the local [TS]

01:55:51   community I think that there's this guy [TS]

01:55:54   wasn't plucked out of absolutely nowhere [TS]

01:55:56   you know he got into trouble as a kid so [TS]

01:55:59   that like their there's more going on [TS]

01:56:02   here but my feeling is that this Theresa [TS]

01:56:07   girl got murdered by somebody else who [TS]

01:56:10   took advantage of the situation so I [TS]

01:56:13   think that seems really unlikely gray [TS]

01:56:14   that seems like it seems pretty amazing [TS]

01:56:18   to think I want to murder this i think i [TS]

01:56:20   can get away with a murder today because [TS]

01:56:22   if i disposed of the body in this way at [TS]

01:56:25   this person's house this person who the [TS]

01:56:27   police are already predisposed against [TS]

01:56:29   is is almost certainly going to go down [TS]

01:56:31   but that seems really implausible to me [TS]

01:56:34   that a third party did the murder and [TS]

01:56:38   the third party frame Steven Avery I [TS]

01:56:42   think the most likely scenarios are a [TS]

01:56:44   vreedle up or someone else did it and [TS]

01:56:50   the police fair [TS]

01:56:51   and evidence and moved the evidence into [TS]

01:56:54   a place where we made it more obvious [TS]

01:56:56   that Steven Avery get it whether or not [TS]

01:56:57   they thought he did or not they moved [TS]

01:57:00   the evidence that I i find it very hard [TS]

01:57:02   to believe that a third party so i think [TS]

01:57:05   i could get away with murder this week [TS]

01:57:06   because I could frame every or they did [TS]

01:57:09   a mirror and thought now i'll put it on [TS]

01:57:11   every it seems to me that is that second [TS]

01:57:15   scenario is seems more likely that the [TS]

01:57:17   police find her dead and the move her in [TS]

01:57:21   only four days fixed even they find her [TS]

01:57:24   dead they think Steven Avery did it [TS]

01:57:26   because that was the last house he was [TS]

01:57:28   at and they're thinking we got no [TS]

01:57:29   evidence we can make this stick like [TS]

01:57:32   Avery's clearly done and he's gonna get [TS]

01:57:33   away with it again we can make this [TS]

01:57:35   stick because so then they start moving [TS]

01:57:38   a couple of things here but they have to [TS]

01:57:41   move a lot of things because they have [TS]

01:57:43   to move her car and they have to move [TS]

01:57:45   the remnants of her but like moving the [TS]

01:57:47   car is a big deal [TS]

01:57:48   ya like like to the police find the car [TS]

01:57:51   up the road [TS]

01:57:52   i I don't know that that to me seems way [TS]

01:57:55   harder then there's a huge celebrity [TS]

01:57:59   like this is the other thing to be like [TS]

01:58:01   to be really clear about he's not just [TS]

01:58:03   like some guy in the blue that the [TS]

01:58:05   police have had run-ins a huge known [TS]

01:58:07   person in this area like the family are [TS]

01:58:10   well known i don't think it's crazy to [TS]

01:58:13   think someone would think this is a [TS]

01:58:15   great place to try to dump the body [TS]

01:58:17   right and and if it's found they're not [TS]

01:58:19   going to look too hard but my feeling is [TS]

01:58:21   somebody else killed her he was so [TS]

01:58:25   well-known like the that it's an obvious [TS]

01:58:28   place to dump a body and and think maybe [TS]

01:58:31   they'll just they'll just not look very [TS]

01:58:33   far past this guy if they if they find a [TS]

01:58:35   body on on his property and just think [TS]

01:58:37   oh right [TS]

01:58:38   this this guy everybody already thinks [TS]

01:58:40   it's kind of awful he did it when i [TS]

01:58:43   watch something like this like i love i [TS]

01:58:45   really like America I work through all [TS]

01:58:47   the time [TS]

01:58:47   lots of my friends are Americans and [TS]

01:58:49   Americans you Americans call place when [TS]

01:58:51   i watch this documentary I sometimes [TS]

01:58:53   think while man [TS]

01:58:54   America's weird you know only in America [TS]

01:58:56   as they say and you sort of think [TS]

01:58:59   that's a crazy place do you look at MIT [TS]

01:59:02   American things like that now you live [TS]

01:59:04   in London and have lived here for a long [TS]

01:59:05   time do you watch this like do you feel [TS]

01:59:07   like an outsider when you watch this [TS]

01:59:09   order watches and think my country that [TS]

01:59:11   is a bit weird sometimes I don't know [TS]

01:59:13   I've lived outside of the US long enough [TS]

01:59:15   that I have a lot of distance from it [TS]

01:59:17   no it feels like another place but much [TS]

01:59:22   less than the American thing this this [TS]

01:59:24   to me just feels much more like a [TS]

01:59:26   small-town kind of place where I think [TS]

01:59:31   that that's what actually feels like the [TS]

01:59:32   real difference and like small towns you [TS]

01:59:36   know everybody knows everybody else and [TS]

01:59:39   like the police department has a blood [TS]

01:59:41   feud with some family because because of [TS]

01:59:45   a cousin who married into the police [TS]

01:59:47   department [TS]

01:59:48   you gotta love LA like this is how this [TS]

01:59:50   whole thing kicks off is like one of the [TS]

01:59:53   distant Avery's who who doesn't get [TS]

01:59:56   along with the marries into the police [TS]

01:59:57   departments like that this is the [TS]

01:59:59   problem [TS]

01:59:59   problem [TS]

02:00:00   one with small places like to adjust [TS]

02:00:01   their incestuous in this way is like [TS]

02:00:05   everybody's connected to everybody else [TS]

02:00:07   and that can be great when things go [TS]

02:00:10   well but it can be terrible when things [TS]

02:00:12   go wrong this to me is the the flipside [TS]

02:00:16   like the dark side of a small community [TS]

02:00:18   and that's what I've he was the real [TS]

02:00:22   difference i don't feel like oh it's [TS]

02:00:23   America it is more days like oh god it's [TS]

02:00:25   a small town and these are all the [TS]

02:00:27   things that are creepy and weird about [TS]

02:00:29   small towns and so that that's that's [TS]

02:00:32   how i feel about this [TS]

02:00:34   I remember really early on getting [TS]

02:00:36   really excited though because quite [TS]

02:00:37   early in the show they mention sheboygan [TS]

02:00:39   yeah i've never heard of sheboygan until [TS]

02:00:43   during our postcard count when you one [TS]

02:00:46   of the first postcards you pull that was [TS]

02:00:47   from sheboygan wisconsin remember you [TS]

02:00:49   made a little joke about it right and [TS]

02:00:51   also have never heard of that place is [TS]

02:00:52   quite funny and then really early on [TS]

02:00:53   sheboygan came up and I'm like oh I know [TS]

02:00:56   what your game is probably will get you [TS]

02:00:58   big man on campus [TS]

02:01:00   I'm sure there's some name from the [TS]

02:01:02   effect we have never heard of a word or [TS]

02:01:03   a place before and then it starts [TS]

02:01:05   popping up a few times that you know [TS]

02:01:06   there is there is there's totally a word [TS]

02:01:08   for that you know [TS]

02:01:09   well I got that there you go alright [TS]

02:01:12   making a murder quite clever name for [TS]

02:01:14   the show isn't it because what is making [TS]

02:01:16   a murderer remain as a good name wasn't [TS]

02:01:20   right [TS]

02:01:20   did they is it just like making like the [TS]

02:01:22   police make someone for the crime or do [TS]

02:01:24   they make a murderer out of him by how [TS]

02:01:26   he was treated earlier or did they make [TS]

02:01:28   him into a murder with fake evidence got [TS]

02:01:31   lots of meetings that title isn't it [TS]

02:01:32   yeah the other manufacturing murder [TS]

02:01:35   that's the title [TS]