0:00:00Can I also just say before you make your follow up point during the editing I asked you to make a couple of changes
0:00:05because of a few things
0:00:07and I thought that it was going to result in the section making no sense whatsoever to Paypal
0:00:11and you obviously handled it very well because people seem to understand what we were talking about so congratulations
0:00:18to you on editing and sorry for making your life difficult.
0:00:21Yeah
0:00:21but nobody noticed there's no reason for you to draw attention to this now so I'm just going to cut this out as well.
0:00:28Well let's find out.
0:00:29You know Googling of twenty tons of prime number A I would I would I would never I would never do that.
0:00:37I was going to do that.
0:00:39I can't think of any device of prime numbers two three five seven eleven thirteen seventeen one nine hundred twenty
0:00:46three twenty nine and what's her next prime upset after this thirty one thirty one.
0:00:51Wow twin primes twin primes Yes this is exciting double although it will be a twin prime if we make it to the fourth
0:00:59season because this is a problem I can never my my brain doesn't treat the seasons right because if I'm not mistaken
0:01:06this is our. The season finale for Episode three of season three is it not.
0:01:11No no I think I wouldn't think thirty would be the finale this is the penultimate episode.
0:01:15Yeah OK this is right this is my brain always does this wrong I feel like I want to read
0:01:20or order things so that like go back and retcon it so that our first episode is episode zero
0:01:25but you know I feel like the first number should tell you what season it is as well.
0:01:30So episode thirty should be Episode one of season three but that's not really how it works
0:01:36but maybe I will go back I'll change all the numbers people will love that.
0:01:38Are you one of these people who got their knickers in a twist about the turn of the millennium then about you know
0:01:43when was the millennium really ending was at the end of two thousand
0:01:46and knows at the end of I don't get my knickers in a twist
0:01:49but I was aware that did you get your underpants in Tanglewood.
0:01:54It did not bother me
0:01:55but it was something that I was aware of it depend on how you want to how you want to count whereas.
0:02:00The millennium and where is not the millennium.
0:02:01Yeah but yes maybe I will go back
0:02:03and I will change all the numbers for all of the episodes to make it more the way that I wanted to be
0:02:07but that one is actually episode zero they don't know that I know I might
0:02:12and I not only will it cause consternation for some of their followers it will cause consternation for me.
0:02:20You'll forget a little while you'll forget
0:02:22and you won't even remember we should start with follow up because that's where we always stay.
0:02:27Well that's what we always plan to start we had to have a day but no we don't.
0:02:30Let's let's let's get to it recently signed.
0:02:33First of all can we start with the Do Not Disturb stuff we have talked we talked quite a bit about do not disturb mode
0:02:42on phones and the times that it's inappropriate to send M.M.S. or Text messages.
0:02:49There are a lot of people were very interested in this.
0:02:52Yet it was an accepted this is a big topic on on the rabbits I think it's pretty obvious from the feedback that the
0:03:01majority of people shared the view that I guess was kind of your view although you were wrestling with it a bit
0:03:09but most people shared the view that it's open season and you can send messages whenever you like
0:03:16and you can work on the assumption that the receiver is managing the situation at their end so that if I don't want to
0:03:23be disturbed they would not be disturbed. That was the majority feeling wasn't looking.
0:03:30Looking through the feedback that was the impression that I got
0:03:32and then just today I asked on Twitter if someone wanted to tally it up
0:03:35and one of our very nice Twitter followers of James did just that and made a little picture where he went through
0:03:41and tallied what side various people were on
0:03:45and did confirm that that yes it wasn't just confirmation bias on my part of oh look at all these comments that agree
0:03:50with me and I'm just going to ignore the ones that don't look like it was about three
0:03:54or maybe four to one in favor of you can message any time verses you should try to.
0:04:00Estimate if the other person is awake before you message them how do you feel about that pretty well at first
0:04:07when I first started saying the feedback coming in I started to think you know what I'm probably just a bit out of
0:04:13touch here the world has moved on.
0:04:16You know get yourself ready
0:04:18and there are certainly people who I would send text to any time I mean nothing illustrates the example better than the
0:04:26fact I've discussed this over Skype with very stably him and we had that discussion at two am
0:04:35and that was just a normal time for us to be talking and that did demonstrate that the world has moved on
0:04:43but do you know why it suddenly just dawned on me I hope I'm right.
0:04:51There is still etiquette and that's of course is what you need to take into account who it is. Wait what.
0:04:58Horses for what. Horses for courses I don't know this phrase you don't know that sank. I know this means nothing to me.
0:05:06Well it means. Well I'm imagining its origin although now a thousand people tell me I'm wrong.
0:05:12Some horses are good at running on courses and some horses always we don't drive horses
0:05:16and so there's a saying that certain horses are suited to certain circumstances
0:05:22and it's likewise with sending messages. It's horses for courses you need to think about the horse.
0:05:28Well actually my courses were horses horses for courses.
0:05:32Now it's horses for courses because you can change the course
0:05:35but you can change the horse that runs on so if you turn on to the course
0:05:38and I sweat you think well I'm not going to run.
0:05:41Phar Lap I'm going to run a red rum because red runs better on the wet course.
0:05:47People have multiple horses I didn't realize this and then realize you show up with many horses
0:05:51and decide which one to run and then you have one horse
0:05:53and you pick which course you want to run him on is that not how I don't know how professional horse.
0:06:00Nothing more really relevant to the point about before we get so caught up with the intricacies of the horse racing
0:06:10industry let's just say my attitude is you need to think about the person to try to pick an example.
0:06:20Profess a public office someone I text a lot but it takes many people so that's why I chose him so so much
0:06:27and I should say yeah. Someone I text a lot.
0:06:30HAYES You know I don't know how old he is he's somewhere between sixty five and seventy.
0:06:34He's not I wouldn't describe him as a super high tech.
0:06:38He's interested me with his phone number and the privilege to be able to ring him and text him whenever I like.
0:06:46I would not text him later not I would not expect him to have configured his phone into some system whereby he can
0:06:55filter me out I would not ashame he has turned his phone off he doesn't have to turn his phone off because of all the
0:07:02people in the world who have his number. I think he has an expectation.
0:07:07He has the right to an expectation to be left alone after a certain time is not now OK. C.D.P.
0:07:14Gray I know to see protected hard to contact goes into his show whenever he wants I will text him on a whim
0:07:20when I think of it. You know destine he could be anywhere in the world.
0:07:25I would text him any time because he's probably awake anyway working or something.
0:07:29I choose my horses carefully and that
0:07:34and that responsibility is on me because I'm the person sending the thing out there into the world.
0:07:39The responsibility is mine and I'm sorry if I'm living in the past and I'm being old fashioned
0:07:44but I still believe in us too. I'm old fashioned in that way.
0:07:49There's an etiquette here and I think if I'm going to interrupt someone I need to think about am I interrupting them.
0:07:57You know you don't just turn up someone's house any time.
0:08:00Don't phone them any time and so many text messages to fall into that as well.
0:08:06It seems like you're modifying your course for the horses in your life is the way the Seems to me I'm still stuck on
0:08:13this phrasing.
0:08:16Let's say courses for horses if it makes it easier for you but I can assure you the saying is horses for courses.
0:08:22And yes most people in the racing industry do you have a whole stable of horses they will have twenty or thirty
0:08:28and they do choose
0:08:29when to run them based on how good they are of certain things in this metaphor the horses are your friends are the
0:08:35courses your friends it doesn't seem like the courses should be your friends. You understand the argument.
0:08:41Obviously I'm making a horse's people because horses are more people like right
0:08:46and you are modifying your course for the mighty I am not applying my course of action pending on the horse who I'm
0:08:53sending my S.M.S. To the courts for the horse or whatever. I'm terribly sorry frustrating you with this.
0:09:00Tell me where you stand after all this.
0:09:02Have you because you were you were not totally decided on this you were kind of the anguish I was a man in flux in the
0:09:08last episode I was genuinely anguished I think about it for a whole bunch.
0:09:13After that show I was I read throughout just all of the comments on the road I was really interested to see what people
0:09:18have to say.
0:09:19And after after this whole this whole debacle I am coming down pretty firmly on the side of now you can message anybody
0:09:28at any time.
0:09:30That instant message as you were discussing last time instant message can be treated much more much more sort of like
0:09:39email then it's like a phone call but I was arguing in the opposite way on the previous show
0:09:44but I know what you meant by that so I am I am coming down on that side pretty clearly that you are wrong
0:09:51and you know what I think you know you are wrong but I don't think I know that I let me give you an example.
0:09:56OK So you say you decided to next. T.P.
0:10:00Great video was going to be about chemistry and it was something and I said All right Martin help me out with that
0:10:07and you called him up and he said oh sure gray here's my here's my phone number text me any time you want.
0:10:13OK And you're pulling a late night session
0:10:16and suddenly a question popped into your head you know like oh I need to Texas tomorrow because I want to know the
0:10:21answer.
0:10:23Do you send the text message straight away as soon as it comes into your head at one am
0:10:28or do you think do you know what that sixty seven year old. OK maybe I shouldn't send him a text message at one am.
0:10:37I'll tell you I'll send it in the morning at a more respectable hour.
0:10:42Which just tell me which you don't and then I'll shut up.
0:10:44I think it partly depends on the horse
0:10:47but it depends on who I know that I think it would depend on the horse I guess he does have a nice night life you know
0:10:53that would make me more more likely to be able to do it. Here's here's the thing. I kind of agree.
0:10:59I do kind of agree with you in that that rights are good.
0:11:04If somebody if somebody is possibly approaching seventy I might modify my technological interaction with them so I am
0:11:13going to concede that point ever so slightly here.
0:11:17OK
0:11:18but one of the things that I thought was probably the most interesting comment from the Reddit that I found it had never
0:11:24even occurred to me how people don't change the default settings on their devices.
0:11:30Nobody flips the switch is they just leave everything as it is.
0:11:33What that means is that anybody who has an i Phone if they if they don't at least learn about the Do Not Disturb
0:11:38or how to turn off their phone at night. They must be getting messages from all kinds of things all the time.
0:11:45Just twenty four hours a day.
0:11:48Well if if they have Facebook on their phone right Facebook will give them a notification that somebody sent them a
0:11:53Facebook message. I don't relate to Facebook on your phone.
0:11:57Yes I was using Facebook as I did and that's what everybody has but.
0:12:00If you put the Twitter app on your phone which I have It'll by default you have the actual one from Twitter. Yes OK.
0:12:07It it notifies you for like everything that happens on Twitter. My aunt doesn't buy that. OK Well here's the thing.
0:12:13Did you let it send you messages like when a thing pops up and says wrote in message.
0:12:19OK Well this is what I'm saying like I think by the fall people just hit the Yes button on all those things.
0:12:23Yes So if people just go with the default which is yes their phone's going to be beeping all the time.
0:12:30It doesn't seem to me like messages are fundamentally different on that
0:12:35and I have to say I have seen on other people's i Phones in real life a disturbing number of things in their little
0:12:42notification tray or or the the number of times that sort of normal people's phones do beep.
0:12:47And so I thought how that does that does make messages more like they are part of this noise in people's life
0:12:55and less like less like a phone call like you know I would never I wouldn't call anybody unless it was an emergency
0:13:02really and I would try not to.
0:13:05I would really really think about when somebody is awake before I would call them in a way that I'm
0:13:09and less likely to consider that four messages at this stage. I'm not conceding that yet.
0:13:17Well you'd think the other thing that I just thought was interesting from the Reddit at least our feedback on the Read
0:13:22it was you know I would bet that READ IT trends toward a much younger audience.
0:13:29Yeah probably on average much younger than us.
0:13:32I thought it was interesting just to see that that there was the overwhelming Oh yes you can message anytime
0:13:38and I think this is going to be this is slowly becoming a kind of cultural shift.
0:13:44I would bet that that trend's really high with the younger the person is the more they think it's appropriate to
0:13:51message anybody at any time.
0:13:52So I guess what I'm trying to say here is messaging at all hours is the way of the future Brady
0:13:58and so hop on board the feud. A train.
0:14:01I'm old school
0:14:02and I go I know you wrote a lot on an on an old gent you know I'm an Oh not just old now you're an old gentleman Oh
0:14:09Chip I'm a jet a man as you know I do to retain I will use a knife and fork correctly
0:14:15and you know I hope the young people might think I can do whatever they want with their hands
0:14:20but you know yeah because they're animals right.
0:14:23These young people they're animals they eat with their hands
0:14:25and they text all at once on a proper diet at the table with a knife and fork
0:14:30and in my text messages at appropriate times. Yes yes I do.
0:14:37One final thing that is just a point on this little topic here which was I think the reason the reason this is such a
0:14:44such a contentious issue in that all other methods of communication can pretty clearly fall into one of two bins.
0:14:52You have asynchronous communication like email yet where both people don't need to be there at the same time in the
0:14:57messages go back and forth. Or like the post.
0:15:00Yeah and then you have synchronous communications where you both need to be there at the same time like a phone call
0:15:04or like right now what we're doing on Skype. We can't asynchronously put together this pod cast in any reasonable way.
0:15:11We should try that one day it's like an experiment. We should not we should not try.
0:15:15One does not sound like fun unless you want to edit that upset. I'll let you have that that joy.
0:15:20Yeah but obviously they say S.M.S. Is there and that they're in the gray zone.
0:15:24The word for them is that they are semi synchronous
0:15:27but they are not synchronous they're not asynchronous they're semi synchronous they can fall in
0:15:33and out of this all the time and I think that is that is really the thing that causes all of the problems
0:15:37and I don't want one of the clearest things about the sometimes is like beat it with some people on insta message you
0:15:44sort of drift apart from having a live conversation where it's like oh we're talking to each other right now
0:15:51but then the message is they take longer and longer between them
0:15:53and you sort of wonder at what point are we still talking to each other
0:15:57or are we going to do you know that feeling you know. Yeah. Another master you're the master just like stopping a car.
0:16:04Text conversation is like I guess that was the end all of my supposed since you're the old gentleman of etiquette here
0:16:13am I supposed to sign off with a Cheerio pip pip to let you know that we're all done
0:16:17or how is it you are more abrupt in your like sometimes you reply to things in a way that I used to think was rude
0:16:25and now I just realize it's just being as I don't think that
0:16:29and I'm just like yeah sometimes what would I do that you would think is rude or not
0:16:34and I just like really this is the problem is that this is the problem of communication
0:16:39and you've talked about it before with e-mail and text.
0:16:41At what point do you move from letters where everything has to be formal and your sincerely
0:16:45and thank you very much for your time and at what point can you just be completely functional and say yes
0:16:51or no you know.
0:16:53And I'm not quite at your level yet of using these things purely functional but I never meant to be rude.
0:17:00Unless there was some time I was trying to be rude to you but I don't remember
0:17:02but I know you're not right I don't take it you know. I've learned I've learned this is the way of gray.
0:17:08What have you learned that that's not true just that my messages are short is that what you mean abrupt prophets have
0:17:14props and I'm so much more angry than short.
0:17:16But also but also the funny thing is that when when
0:17:20when you do get cornered into a situation where you have to sort of show some kind of emotional empathy.
0:17:25Sometimes you have to be candid and how do you handle that.
0:17:28What do you mean one of the it's just sometimes like out of the other
0:17:34when I got it I don't want to get to keep personal because the next item I'm going to be really getting stuck into is
0:17:40so I don't want to get Should I just bring up with the next item is there not that I have written here on this list.
0:17:46Let's go to the next go to the next item.
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0:20:06and we think a square space for their support of our show Squarespace start here go anywhere so at the end of the last
0:20:15show we had a little bit of a discussion about KISS inflation and how some people and text messages with exes.
0:20:23Some people such as yourself are a big fan of the hug and so they do with the X O X O.
0:20:27Kisses and hugs Mr Wise do one experiment E X O X X this is the fundamental point though is that the number of X.'s
0:20:35and O's increases as a function of time
0:20:38and then eventually you end up looking like you're being a bit distant if you just sign with an accident because X O X
0:20:45O has become the new standard over time so this is case inflation on text messages and things.
0:20:50And during that conversation you were asking me about this and I just had no familiarity with this whatsoever
0:20:58and I was baffled by this world that you live in. So a couple days later my wife listens to the podcast.
0:21:06And comes back to me with a piece of feedback which is that she does science as it is to me very frequently with X.'s
0:21:16and O's and I said to her No you don't.
0:21:19I've never seen X.'s and O's and then of course I ended up having to look at this on my phone
0:21:24and sure enough lots of her messages to me and with accent Oh
0:21:29and I swear it's like my brain just never saw this I never registered it at all which is why in our conversation
0:21:36together I could simply say something like No My wife doesn't do this I don't have any idea what you're talking about.
0:21:41Even though I've seen it probably hundreds of times in our married life together.
0:21:45So I just thought I would I would say that I guess I don't know what it was like I was I should have been much more
0:21:53familiar with that than I apparently was thrown out for being so not not helpful at all. All in Congress.
0:22:01It's funny because when I asked you about
0:22:02and said Does your wife sign off with kisses you get this weird pause that made me think that you were like like not
0:22:11wanting to admit to and then you because you did this pause
0:22:13and then he just went you know dismissed out of hand so I thought OK I think I was I was thinking about it
0:22:19and thinking
0:22:20and coming to the conclusion that the answer was No I'm just looking out my message here so if I if I scroll about ten
0:22:28messages back my wife has a message that ends in X O X O for me so there we go.
0:22:34Anyway I am less aware of instant message etiquette I guess is the bottom line of this whole conversation so I'm not
0:22:41going to sign it with X X in the nose for you though I'm looking half either to get for an X.
0:22:46On a man for my wife I would just want X. I was no good. For chain messages back but it is a double X.
0:22:54That did you see the Michelin Web video that somebody left and read it I didn't know you can see
0:22:59and I will put it in the show notes it was Mitchell and Webb have a little conversation about kisses
0:23:04and hugs on text messages
0:23:06and I thought it was great as many of their little comedy clubs are so opposite in the show not to people watch.
0:23:10I quite enjoyed it.
0:23:12Yeah as the as the guy who makes number file I cannot tell you how many times I've been sent the You Tube video of
0:23:18their Number Wang skit
0:23:20but it would be in the hundreds I don't know the mumblings can well make make a channel called Number five
0:23:27and you get very familiar with a number when I'll send it to you can put that in the Shanghais too if you want.
0:23:34Gosh I get sent a lot they have a lot of good ones.
0:23:37They do a very good he said something on Twitter about keyboards and oh you know the fans got very excited
0:23:46and they're all like tell us more about your keyboard growth that's a different voice now is this my the fan new level
0:23:53if they have no voice what's known as voice I know I have a nuclear bomb.
0:23:58I think you've forgotten how you do your own voice.
0:24:00Now an interesting my distant sound that I things I don't know maybe it's just you've lost you've lost the skill you
0:24:07think it doesn't sound there anymore I don't think it sounds as nerdy as it used to tell us about you cable I did get a
0:24:14new keyboard. This is the kind of thing people want to know. Yeah and if you can hear from you.
0:24:19Also I can hear you
0:24:20and you know my position on hearing keyboards on recordings I believe you are in favor of hearing the keyboard on the
0:24:27audio recording is that right.
0:24:29There was a number and it was more mass clicks
0:24:32but I don't like I don't like clicking in my audio recordings it shows it shows a lack of respect to the audience I
0:24:40think it probably when I'm typing it sure is more of a lack of respect to you.
0:24:43Yes Yes Well at the moment I have your own recordings and know it listening
0:24:48but if you hear clicking it will be much louder because when we recorded in the past
0:24:54and I had my old keyboard sometimes
0:24:56when you were talking I would try to type quietly so that it wouldn't come up on the microphone and look stuff up
0:25:03but I did get myself a new mechanical keyboard which I only just recently discovered are things that are still being
0:25:10manufactured.
0:25:11So back in the good old days of computers you know like in the one nine hundred eighty the one nine hundred ninety S.
0:25:16You had these keyboards with a really satisfying clicks because they had physical switches inside of that nickel
0:25:21typewriters. No they're not ready. Typewriters and are often terrible.
0:25:28I was using a typewriter today would you believe.
0:25:30Really before I was actually doing a fellow internet really yeah I bet I know it I know it yeah you know I was doing I
0:25:40know what you're doing.
0:25:40OK But yes they are all old keyboards used to have satisfying clicks
0:25:44and it was because there are physical switches on the inside
0:25:47and then over time manufacturers switch to what are called
0:25:51and I think the rubber dome caps inside keyboards which are much softer and they have a kind of machine feel
0:25:58when you type on them and.
0:26:00It has always made me sad
0:26:01but never occurred to me that maybe somebody out there is still manufacturing mechanical keyboards I don't know why I
0:26:07popped into my head one day but I went to look it up
0:26:10and was super excited to discover that yes mechanical keyboards are still being manufactured
0:26:14and so as a kind of nice purchase for myself I decided that I had to buy one
0:26:18and there was one sitting in front of me right now which is very nice
0:26:22and I have to say there is nothing more satisfying than typing on a mechanical keyboard is a good listening as well.
0:26:28I think I'd like that. Well the company who should sponsor us by the way.
0:26:34Well I actually don't know how to pronounce the name.
0:26:35It's either W A S D or was I don't know if I'm to say it as a word or from sources say the letters
0:26:42but they kind of make the kind of personalize the keyboards so you can get them printed however you want with any
0:26:48letters and you can get the colors of the keys anyway that you want
0:26:51and you can get any size keyboard anyway that you want because one of my big complaints about keyboards is that like
0:26:57when you buy a keyboard for your desktop there's too much of the junk on the right hand side like a phone number pad I
0:27:03never want that and then you have to reach over it to get to the mouse.
0:27:06So I got a little short keyboard I got it all in black
0:27:10and what is very exciting for me is I got a printed with the Dvorak keyboard layout
0:27:18but the biggest disadvantage is that
0:27:20when we're recording a podcast I can't I can't be subtle anymore like he was me trying to type quietly.
0:27:28That's OK I mean at least it's still here I think it's better to go out like if you going to be a bear be a grizzly.
0:27:35Don't like it so I think I think that's the way to go.
0:27:38I quite I look at this so I could get one of these printed like with my avid shortcut keys on it and stuff
0:27:42and yeah you can upload anything that I think there's a way that you can tell them whatever you want to put on the keys
0:27:48and they have presets for a whole bunch of different stuff.
0:27:51Yeah so I got them active Oreck preset and just I just got it in all black it was really nice
0:27:56but it is heavy like you could be the man to death with a mechanical keyboard.
0:28:00They are not they're not made for your backpack
0:28:02or to carry around because I have to be wired into the computer kind of the wireless I think they need to be wired
0:28:08but I'm not one hundred percent sure on that
0:28:09but the thing is the biggest advantage now is of course because I spent probably the majority of my time actually
0:28:14typing on my i Pad is that I can't use this delightful keyboard with my i Pad because if I brought the Starbucks people
0:28:20would be really angry even if I had an adapter that went into my i Pad of trying to like type clackety clack clack
0:28:25clack in the corner there wouldn't be any that would say this is purely not the direct thing but the mechanical thing.
0:28:31This is purely just kind of like a pleasure pleasure thing there's no kind of advantage to you.
0:28:39Functionally this is just a niceness it just sounds and feels nicest just makes the experience more pleasurable.
0:28:46Yeah it makes typing way nicer to do
0:28:49and I don't know if it's just because these are the kind of keyboards I grew up with like that might just be a big part
0:28:55of it but I feel and I've been working with her for maybe about a week now and I am really aware that I can.
0:29:01Once I get into the flow of typing like when I've been working on scripts
0:29:04and things I swear it feels a lot easier to keep going
0:29:07and to type quickly on a mechanical keyboard that might just totally be in my head I'm fully willing to acknowledge
0:29:12that but it just feels like a really solid nice piece of equipment.
0:29:17We can do anything I can do to increase enjoyment of your work.
0:29:20Folks who work for them but isn't that exactly
0:29:22when I got the keyboard I was genuinely excited to be able to go through my e-mail I have this huge pile of emails are
0:29:27global or you can start trying in typing this out.
0:29:30So honestly even just for a day of being able to churn through my endless pile of e-mail it was definitely beneficial.
0:29:38This episode of hello internet has been sponsored by our very good friends at Harry's Now you've heard me talk about
0:29:46Harry's before they're so brilliant shaving kit everything you need to handle the razors and whatnot.
0:29:52The usual talking point you've heard us say blades are made in Germany. Really good price.
0:29:58Get them delivered to your door and sell it. Going to the shops.
0:30:01But today I want to do something different I want to read you an e-mail I received just a couple of days ago from a
0:30:07gentleman named Trevor who is a freshman at the University of Wisconsin. Actually it's the University of Wisconsin.
0:30:15Our cost is that or is that right. I don't know.
0:30:18Anyway that's where he's from a center where the American went in as a freshman at the University of Wisconsin a
0:30:24quality I have to say I mean I make educational videos
0:30:27and I get quite a lot of e-mails from people saying thank you for making this video
0:30:31and you've inspired me to learn something and I guess that's something I expect now.
0:30:35But I never expected I would get to a point where I started receiving emails this from Trevor basically thanking me for
0:30:41shaving advice. Trevor says Harry's raises a fantastic. For Christmas I received a Winston set and I love it.
0:30:51The blah blah. As a university student with an aging razor Harries provides a high quality razor for a great price.
0:30:58Although I have not yet used the shaving foam I can say the gel is even high quality
0:31:03and furthermore I will from now on be buying my shaving products from Harry's.
0:31:07Thanks for your opinion on their raises because Brady's suit actually says Brady smoothing words really pushed me to
0:31:15ask for one. Thanks and have a Happy New Year.
0:31:18Sincerely Trevor and just so you know I'm not taking advantage of Trevor he does say. P.S.
0:31:23You can use this email as a review for the ad if you guys make another one so there you go.
0:31:28Don't take it from me don't take it from Grady take it from Trevor a freshman at the University of Wisconsin cautioned
0:31:36copyright cannot Oshkosh anyway. Thank you so much and thank you Harry's for supporting our podcast.
0:31:44Clearly it's not just us saying what we think about the products the people that are using them really enjoying them as
0:31:49well. It's really hard to show you how cool the Harry stuff is you have to look at their website.
0:31:54It's Harry's dot com I also recommend the Winston it's sort of the silvery metal blade it's really.
0:32:00Yes And once you start using it I'm sure you'll never go back.
0:32:03Go to Harry's dot com You can get a starter set from as little as fifteen dollars
0:32:08but best of all you can use the offer code.
0:32:11I teach by the hello internet that age by when you check out
0:32:15and you get five dollars off so you're saving money you getting great raises and you're also doing a favor for us here.
0:32:22Hello Internet. Thank you very much.
0:32:24Harry's Now this something we spoke we've spoken about this many times
0:32:31and we spoke about it again in the last episode
0:32:33and for some reason for the last couple of weeks it's really been stuck in my head more than ever before
0:32:41and this is your avoidance of news though. OK.
0:32:46That actually don't go on news Web sites you don't watch the nightly news.
0:32:51You would it be fair to say I don't know if you can actively avoid the news well I think you're framing this all wrong
0:32:58because I'm just living my life. You on the other hand go and seek out the news.
0:33:03OK I'm out of I'm not avoiding anything. OK OK so.
0:33:10This for some reason this has been bothering me a lot over the last couple of weeks.
0:33:14It was funny because in the last pod cast I was I was surprised how much of a thing this was because I felt like we've
0:33:20discussed this many times but it seems like you didn't truly understand until the last episode.
0:33:26Not an eye I think I always understood. I think it is. I think it is a wrong headed of you.
0:33:37OK Now can I put a little bit please. Please go ahead. OK caviar away away.
0:33:46First of all it's everyone's right how they live their life including yours. Right. Who and who am I to judge.
0:33:53Etc etc Well first of all I think since we do a podcast together it's kind of your job to judge my life. I.
0:34:00Like in this circumstance it's time.
0:34:02OK Can I also just say from the start before I start trying to sound too grandiose that I am very aware that you
0:34:12and I
0:34:13and everyone listening to this podcast is just a sack of water on a spare key piece of rock around a star in a universe
0:34:22and we could not be more insignificant.
0:34:24I hope I am aware of that
0:34:26but I'm going to put that to one side because because if we don't put that to one side we might was OK it was right.
0:34:32Well I mean and I don't agree with anything that you just said there but OK we'll just let you keep going here.
0:34:39I think you should be following the news
0:34:42and the things that happen in the world more closely you should be part of your life OK.
0:34:50There are two there are two main reasons the first reason
0:34:53and it's the lesser reason is I think you almost have a I don't want to say professional responsibility because you
0:35:02know I would never suggest you're unprofessional and you're very good at your work
0:35:06but I think it's almost incumbent on you in the job you need to know quite a bit about what's going on in the world at
0:35:12all times you have a very large following of people on various mediums.
0:35:19You know you know whether it's social media
0:35:23or an obviously your You Tube channel you touch a lot of people's lives in a lot of different places around the world
0:35:30and to be to have no idea what's going on in the world.
0:35:36I'm exaggerating here of course when I say you have no idea what's going on in the world. Excuse my exaggeration.
0:35:41We got to a first order approximation of coal gas to have no idea what's going on in the world I think is irresponsible.
0:35:53I'm using words like unprofessional and irresponsible but I'm using them in a very friendly way.
0:35:57I'm not I'm not signed yet. I think it's.
0:36:00It's almost irresponsible to not know what's going on in the world because you communicate with these people
0:36:05and you talk with them.
0:36:06Admittedly you're not talking with them about day to day news that much
0:36:09but I think you should know who I think you should know stuff you should be really across stuff.
0:36:15So partly so you don't step on landmines but also it just will allow you to have the kind of a sensitivity
0:36:25and a context for things you say that matches the context of everyone else living in the world because I think most
0:36:32people in the world do follow the news and sort of know what's going on there today so I think it only right now.
0:36:40Well I think you're right about most people fall.
0:36:42Yes Well here is a bracket that very tight like a I don't know if you want to I don't I don't know if you would respond
0:36:48to that. It's not my main point anyway. OK well maybe you should respond. You know yeah I don't know. Well I guess.
0:36:59I've had this conversation with very many people
0:37:02and that that comes down to some kind of version of even even my work aside it is like the responsibility of people to
0:37:09follow the news. Yeah and I do not understand that that argument at all and I'm not.
0:37:19I've never had anybody make a convincing reason for why it's a responsibility to like
0:37:25and what I mean here is on it on a daily basis like the thing you were talking about last time. Just go to C.N.N.
0:37:31Dot com and see what the headlines are or whatever.
0:37:35I don't I don't see the responsibility I don't see the the compelling reason to do that
0:37:41and I have both lived a life where I did intensely and I would say much more regularly follow the news.
0:37:49So when I when I was when I was working as a teacher I used to have a relatively long commute for part of my career
0:37:55and as a regular thing I had a bunch of podcasts I listen to that were sort of.
0:38:00I'm just a news pod cast you know what's what's going on
0:38:03and I was much more plugged into things happening in the world.
0:38:07And over time I kept turning that dial down and down and down about how much stuff I let in
0:38:13and from my perspective my life seems much better now that I don't follow the news.
0:38:19That's not that's not necessarily cause and causation.
0:38:23This is this is you know that your life could be better now for other reasons my life is better for it for very many
0:38:28reasons like I have been working to make my life better
0:38:31and I have accomplished that in a bunch of ways which I'm pretty happy about
0:38:34but I can say that there are there are ways in which I could feel that the news was burning cycles in my brain that I
0:38:43didn't need to be burnt that or I was thinking about stuff where I thought oh why am I thinking about this
0:38:49or like why why why am I upset about this topic
0:38:53or why is my brain kind of focusing on this thing to just know to no avail there's nothing I can do to to fix this
0:39:01situation
0:39:02or anything so that is like there's a particular way in which I mean that my life is better at something called empathy
0:39:08but maybe we'll come to that in a minute
0:39:09but you know if you don't know what topics I'm talking about like I can get hugely obsessed with how the voting systems
0:39:16work in particular like that's not necessarily empathy with human beings.
0:39:21Still think it's a kind of empathy but anyway that's that's a distraction.
0:39:25Yeah yeah but but so so so here's here's the thing.
0:39:29When we're weighing this it's like I can I can point to measurable ways in which my life is better personally better
0:39:38from not following the news and then people come along
0:39:41and tell me that I am I have some sort of responsibility to follow the news just as informed human being
0:39:46and I feel like you need a reason that's better than my life being better by not following the news
0:39:51and I don't I don't feel that anybody gives that.
0:39:54Well let me come let me come to my next point then because and I know you hate my analogies.
0:40:00I love your knowledge is pretty I just think they're often terribly wrong headed talking about horses and courses
0:40:08and fall back on.
0:40:10OK if you want to say you were going to do one train journey in your life then for the sake of for the sake of one
0:40:18let's say a loved one that say London to Edinburgh because it's one we've probably done and done that it's good.
0:40:24It's where we live so you can do this one train journey and to me this is who you are you are sitting on this train
0:40:34and you have your head in a book and your reading about all the great train journeys in history
0:40:42or you're reading a book about fictional train journeys that a bunch of hobbits once took on the train into mortal life
0:40:48and you're sitting there and you're thinking about the best your perfect trained
0:40:53and you're reading about what some views are from different trains and the whole time you sit there in a book
0:40:58and then at the end you pull up in Edinburgh and you get off the train.
0:41:03At no point on that train journey did you look at the wind.
0:41:07Did you walk around and have a look at the other carriages and see what the food carriage was like
0:41:11and what the toilets were like on the train and talk to the other passengers.
0:41:14You just spent the whole train journey reading and thinking about the train journeys
0:41:19and I think this is kind of what life is like.
0:41:24You have you have this one train journey that you get to go on depending on what you feel if you have this one train
0:41:31journey and I know there's a lot of people in the world and six billion or seven billion or billion
0:41:37or whatever it is seems like a lot of people but it's not really that many people in the grand scheme of things
0:41:42and these are the other people that you're sharing the train journey with on this one little train around this one
0:41:49little star and then soon it will all be over
0:41:52and I think it is sad to think that you would spend your whole train journey with your head.
0:42:00It buried in a book thinking about stuff that's happened before stuff that might happen in the future
0:42:05or stuff that never even happened it's just made up
0:42:07and not devote more time to the journey itself to look out the window to get off at a few stations
0:42:14and walk around to have to think about all the other people that are doing the journey with you.
0:42:20Like I think I'm missing here I think I think that's wrong.
0:42:24I think in life you know you've got these other people that live on the planet with you I'm sure they're a long way
0:42:29away and you might never make them but these are kind of there's a kind of community that we're on here
0:42:37or more on this planet together
0:42:38and I think it's good that we live in a time where we can know what all the others are doing and what's going on
0:42:43and I know the media is sometimes not the best prism and it's flawed
0:42:48but everything's flawed I think sitting I think you're sitting there with your head in a book
0:42:54and I hope that you spend enough time looking up
0:42:58and realizing that there are billions of other people on this train with gay and stuff happening to all of them
0:43:03and some of it's good and some of it's bad because this is the unshorn journey you're going to get
0:43:08and you don't want to get to the end and think.
0:43:11What kind of state of mind I think he I think following the news makes you part of a really special community
0:43:18and who knows maybe maybe there are millions of other communities spread all through the universe.
0:43:22Maybe where the anyone but this is a special thing this is a special Roger on
0:43:27and you're on it with a bunch of other special people
0:43:30and I think you should pay attention to what journey all those other people around.
0:43:37That's all I have to say OK so I swear I'm not making horses for courses joke here.
0:43:43OK But your analogy seems exactly backwards to me in the same way.
0:43:50Were it to me it feels like to use the train as life metaphor.
0:43:55Yeah I am on a train and there are people around me and there are things. Look out the window.
0:44:01And this train is my life and would you want me to do.
0:44:05Instead of looking out the window
0:44:07or talking to the people nearby is you want me to read the newspaper to read the newspaper about things that are
0:44:14happening on the other side of the planet things that I can do nothing about
0:44:18or things that are just totally unrelated to what's happening around me right now
0:44:23and it has what do you want me to do is to read the newspaper that you want me to not look out the window to not
0:44:29possibly interact with the people around me.
0:44:32That's to me what the news seems like now you've taken you've taken you've taken the analogy a step further to the
0:44:38point where it doesn't make that it doesn't make sense that's not the point I was making.
0:44:42I understand the point you're making but but that is the way it feels to me and I think this is also a good.
0:44:49I always feel kind of bad talking about the news if you're Brady because you know you were a journalist you are still a
0:44:55journalist and in many ways you're sort of an independent journalist
0:44:58and I can honestly say you're the best journalist I've ever known
0:45:04and if all journalists were like you I would have much more interest in the news
0:45:09but my experience with the news is that it is all even if you want to follow it.
0:45:16So much of it is just terrible and even trying to filter through the stuff that is just wildly inaccurate
0:45:23or misrepresentative or stuff that's just it's like ginned up controversies like there's just a million things
0:45:29and there is the abstract notion of the news which I think is what you are arguing for.
0:45:37And then there is the practicalities.
0:45:39OK well I'm going to follow the news which which website am I going to follow in particular when
0:45:45when you get down into those details it all just looks particularly terrible.
0:45:49But
0:45:50but if all of the newspapers in the world were written by Brady herons you know that might be a very different story.
0:45:57But that's like that's not the actual world that we're in.
0:46:00I think I think it's a bit of a cop out to say that the media's broken like you know a policeman a corrupt state
0:46:05but it doesn't mean when you get robbed you know when to call the placement
0:46:07and you know politicians are corrupt that doesn't mean that you would polish democracy like you've got a you know now
0:46:14I'm kind of I'm I will grant that and our kids decide we can all agree that we need some kind of governing structure
0:46:20and we need some kind of law enforcement and yes you know hospitals aren't perfect but I will go to one if I am sick.
0:46:28But I see I don't see the need for the news in my life I don't see what this I don't see what this adds
0:46:35and I don't see what what following it does I just feel a bit like
0:46:40and I know I know you can change a legit analogy just to in another way I know exactly how you will change it
0:46:47but I feel like you're going to Yankee Stadium with fifty thousand other people
0:46:52and like this unique amazing game is happening and we're all together as a crowd cheering and enjoying it
0:47:01and then after the game someone comes up to you and says What was the game like what was the experience like
0:47:05and you're like I don't I want to read the whole book.
0:47:09Well everyone else was watching the game and six experiencing the emotions of the of the main of of the journey
0:47:15and having a hot dog and doing all that and I feel like it's an honor
0:47:19and you know you can go too far the other way I'm not saying you should sit there watching a twenty four hour news
0:47:24channel every minute of your life so that you know what every other humans doing there's a balance to be struck
0:47:29but I just suspect I feel like you're striking up way too far in the other direction to the point where you're just
0:47:37sitting in the corner of a library and I don't know what frustrates me so much why do I care.
0:47:43You know you're still my friend and you entertain me and you make good videos.
0:47:46So why do I care that you don't watch the news.
0:47:47But for some reason it has been bothering me in the last couple of weeks.
0:47:50It's not just almost everybody I interact with Everywhere I go.
0:47:55When this comes up everybody is bothered by this and I feel I find it very interesting that this.
0:48:00That people are really bothered but I have I have gotten through to a few people to do the experiment.
0:48:08Try to turn down the news
0:48:09or just make a note of the things that are occupying your mind in the news on a particular day
0:48:14and then write them down and then look at that list three weeks from now
0:48:18and see how much of that stuff on that list even matters at all.
0:48:20And very good experiment and I've left and you are dead wrong
0:48:24and I've thought a lot about the other point you made that things that seem important now later on don't seem important.
0:48:30I see in my own videos actually I sometimes see videos I made because I felt like I had to make them because they were
0:48:36so topical unsought gusty and I watch them now and think that wasn't that important event really was a no go.
0:48:43But I do feel you can go too far the other way you know with a few with you know.
0:48:49I've but I've said before that it is it is impossible to live in the modern world without some news getting through
0:48:57and so I go on Twitter I'm aware of the occasional really big events that occur you know I went to the local corner
0:49:04shop just earlier today
0:49:05and like there's newspapers on the stand as I'm waiting to check out stuff so I was like I see the headlines is it's
0:49:11when you say avoiding the news it's not like I'm like oh avert my eyes from the headlines you know I was I don't want
0:49:16to I don't want to soil my pure brain and worry about what's happening elsewhere.
0:49:22And of course I could never go on Twitter if I totally wanted to avoid everything.
0:49:25But
0:49:25but so that's why I just I think it's different that to me is the question of Is there any benefit in spending time actively
0:49:32seeking out the news I don't think so
0:49:36and I don't think it's cheaper to have as one item on your checklist to go to the front page the B.B.C.
0:49:42Website and just check what the top three stories are and if you look at them think that's just a bunch of filler.
0:49:47Typical media. But if there's one there that you think gosh that's you know that's what it was.
0:49:53But you forget I used to follow the news more regularly. Like I've I've done this. I used to do this.
0:50:00Yes and I've come to the conclusion that it is just there's no there's no point in it.
0:50:05There's no point in it except derailment like that. That's that's what lies that way.
0:50:12So OK I don't mean to I don't mean to bring you down grade you haven't brought me down. You let me have my say.
0:50:18You were very You were very understanding and patient with me.
0:50:22Well I can I I would I would just say that I still don't I still don't hear the reason to follow the news from you
0:50:32and this is what I would really like a reason I would not like a metaphor.
0:50:37I what I would like I would like to know what what why should I think it is good to see you as a person to have a
0:50:45higher level of empathy with the other people you share this planet with.
0:50:48OK
0:50:49but having empathy for other people is a is a totally different issue because I don't follow the news is not the same thing
0:50:56as lacking in empathy. Well it's kind of like a public.
0:51:01It's kind of like a very flagrant showing of disregard for what's happening elsewhere.
0:51:06It's also not it's also not disregard it's. It's what is is and you forget the wording of this thing.
0:51:19It was like the Serenity Prayer grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change the courage to change the
0:51:27things I can and the wisdom to know the difference. Yes I feel like it like that.
0:51:32The wisdom to know the difference and
0:51:34and the acceptance of things I cannot change like that like that is the news to a very large extent.
0:51:41The only reason that prayer doesn't apply to you though is that you don't know what the things are you don't know what
0:51:48things you can change
0:51:50or can change because you don't know the things you're ignoring the things I understand that point
0:51:57but I just I still say that that almost by definition.
0:52:00Stuff that is covered in the news is unusual stuff
0:52:05and it's stuff that I can have almost no effect on the stuff that is presented in the news it is not about solving
0:52:13stuff it's about getting your attention on these things. Let me ask you one final question. Yeah.
0:52:20If everyone in the world to morrow deployed to see G P gray philosophy to news consumption what what would happen.
0:52:32Besides a whole bunch of media empires going out of business what would happen what would it be in the world's best
0:52:40interest if everyone took your level of interest in news and current events.
0:52:46I don't think the world would be that different to be honest. I do a look at how do you think it would be different.
0:52:53I think they would I think the rich will get richer the poor get poorer. The corrupt would get corrupt.
0:53:00I think when tragedies happen there would be no help from the outside I think when
0:53:09when I think what injustice was happening nothing would be done about it.
0:53:13You got you gotta stop there because again you're you're acting as though huge events I don't hear about
0:53:19or that they don't come come through in my system.
0:53:22You you are postulating a world in which everyone is actively blind to everything that is occurring everywhere in the
0:53:30world.
0:53:30There's often some pretty big things you don't know about that is that is true
0:53:33and to be fair if everyone ignored the news the news which kind of wither on the vine anyway
0:53:38and they get even less tonight but that I know you have that's not a reason to stay and I realize
0:53:43but yeah yeah I guess this is this is again where I think like you are the ideal journalist
0:53:48and you are you are a good embodiment of the story that the news likes to tell itself about oh you know we you know we
0:53:55hold that we hold power to account really really do you really.
0:54:00News I'm not super convinced that you do not get you there otherwise to hold power to account
0:54:07and not as you are outraged because you think you know you don't.
0:54:14The only way to hold power to account is not writing kind of hoax some stories about you know deep political issues you
0:54:23know the kind. Can I give you another little a little thought experiment here.
0:54:28Something I thought about a bunch I haven't ever told anyone about this because I think a part make people angry
0:54:33but why don't I do it on a podcast list I think people like this is perfect right so your thought experiment of what
0:54:39happens everybody avoids the news in the way that I do something similar that I have thought about is this you have
0:54:45brought up it before that. O C G B gray you don't like the news.
0:54:50You like things when it's all just settled when it's just history
0:54:54and you know you want to wait until the you know we have things all written down
0:54:58and we have like a definitive account of what has occurred which I have argued with you many times
0:55:03but I have often wondered if I could press a button that would erase all knowledge of history from humanity.
0:55:13Would I press that button. As in nothing nothing changes. We don't forget the current state of the world.
0:55:20Right but people just forget anything about history you just you know wake up tomorrow and we just go right.
0:55:27Obviously I still know I'm and I'm like I'm an American I'm living in the U.K. Everybody in the U.K. Knows the U.K.
0:55:32Is a country but they just forget all of the relations that say the U.K.
0:55:37Ever had with France or with Ireland or with India.
0:55:40Or that Germany had with Poland or any of these kind of removing not the kind of the baggage in the stereotypes
0:55:47and I think yeah just like I mean it quite literally removing all knowledge of like the politics of history. Yeah.
0:55:54Just all those books got burned and everybody forgot. I would argue that that like.
0:56:00I think that could be a better world.
0:56:02I honestly think I would be pretty tempted to press that button and set alight all knowledge of human history.
0:56:09So you down described to this you know we learn from our mistakes and that's why history is important.
0:56:13You know that's that I mean come on I think if you think about that for two seconds that's obviously a load of bull.
0:56:19That whole notion of only one thing that sometimes to actually it's so wrong that is the kind of thing historians like
0:56:25to tell everybody oh it's really important we know all of history so we can learn from it. Oh yeah.
0:56:30You have done a great job of learning from that history and that we've never made the same mistake twice.
0:56:35That was good job historians. So I would argue that I think that that could be a better world.
0:56:42Do you would it would do you think do you agree with me if you disagree with me on this point I think if you could
0:56:48because the E.U.
0:56:49Wouldn't bury your nose in history books
0:56:50and maybe you'd live with the rest of us in the now which is first of all you used to keep thinking I don't read
0:56:58history I am remarkably uninterested in history you think that I'm some sort of like history buff
0:57:04but I should look there I am not. Do you watch your videos. Do you watch my view if you watch them.
0:57:11If you actually watch them you will notice how little history there actually is and things right.
0:57:17Everybody thinks my videos are about history but go back
0:57:20and look at them they are not the last book that could be considered a history book I read was like a couple years ago.
0:57:26Anyway aside from your your terrible concern that I follow the news in detail now would you be at all tempted to press
0:57:34the button to it.
0:57:35I know you wouldn't
0:57:35but I'm just like hypothetically do you think you could be a better world if you were to erase all of knowledge of
0:57:42history from from humanity.
0:57:46My instinct is not is that it would be a bad idea and why do you think it would be a bad idea.
0:57:53Because I love I love I love history and heritage I love that I love that we got here because of a story.
0:58:00And I would hate to lose that story.
0:58:02For better or worse I love I love that chapter in and an amazing book and I don't want to lose the book.
0:58:11But you're acknowledging that the book might be causing problems yet so I feel like you agree with me
0:58:19but you still wouldn't press the button. I know it's something that I've run into here in the U.K.
0:58:23In particular which I have found just weird is is a particular kind of like people really not liking other people who
0:58:33are from ludicrously short distances away.
0:58:36Yeah you know I mean I have known to others
0:58:41but you know you can pick almost any pair of these they'll just pick one in particular which is I have known Welsh
0:58:46people who passionately hate English people all English people and I can see where I was from my window right now.
0:58:54First stuff that happened nine hundred years ago right.
0:58:58And and I have conversations with these people
0:59:00and they seem like really really dead set about it now before anybody gets angry.
0:59:05You know you can do this with any combination you want I know there are people who hate Scottish people I know Scott of
0:59:10people who are in that like not in a jokey way but in a serious way that like they like they bear resentment
0:59:16and that to me is just beyond stupid. It's like there's no reason for this.
0:59:20Everybody who was involved in this is long dead and buried in the ground. I don't understand this.
0:59:27This attachment to people from hundreds and hundreds of years ago like it like it affects your life at all now
0:59:35and if you take your duty anywhere else you know
0:59:39and it's you know whatever you can to live your life the way you want to.
0:59:42So so that's kind of why I often think that like knowledge is that that England screwed over Wales nine hundred years
0:59:49ago.
0:59:50You know what it might just be better if I wasn't if that wasn't around anymore if we just erased all of all of history
0:59:56and I feel like you are right in that the news.
1:00:00In some senses the leading the vanguard of what will eventually become history. Yeah.
1:00:06And so to me this is just it just seems like an extension of you know you you want me to follow the news
1:00:13but you know I would press the button that would erase all of history from knowledge if I could.
1:00:18So I in some ways I'm willing to go much much further on this one point.
1:00:23What is the point of life if it isn't stories and like what is it just just to have X.
1:00:30Number of dollars in the bank when you die. Well if if you haven't got stories and stuff that happened.
1:00:36Good stuff and bad stuff and happy times and sad times but if you haven't got that when
1:00:41but I mean my my life is that is the story of my life
1:00:45but I mean I mean how how far back can you honestly trace your family
1:00:50and how much would it matter if you discovered at some point that oh you know you did some of the genealogy wrong
1:00:55and it was some other family that was that was your past family right.
1:00:58Doesn't matter it doesn't it doesn't make any difference. Yeah yeah right.
1:01:06Let me give you let me give you an example of like of like empathy.
1:01:09All right and then the kind of history and history of this which is this might this might be a little bit sensitive
1:01:16or people will try to preface this I don't even know how to preface this
1:01:19but so I mention a few times I've done some road trips across the United States isn't being overly serious.
1:01:26Sorry everybody I'm going to do a couple road trips across the U.S.
1:01:30and They are very interesting things to do and you know if you ever have the ability to do it I highly recommend it.
1:01:37But on on one of those trips I'm not going to say exactly where.
1:01:40Somewhere in America we were driving across a very large Indian reservation my wife was with me at the time
1:01:48and like I've been I've traveled around the world like I have been to many places I can honestly say that this was one
1:01:57of the most horrifically poor places.
1:02:00I've ever seen in my life
1:02:01and my wife who is much more well traveled than I She was like she's never seen poverty like this it was just a
1:02:10horrible horrible place.
1:02:12And to me this is this is the this is the kind of thing where it's like look these people are in a terrible situation
1:02:19that we kind of in like this is a particular American problem
1:02:23but that America kind of allows to exist for historical reasons.
1:02:28I honestly think that if we woke up tomorrow
1:02:32and everybody forgot everything that there ever was to know about colonialism and we know what happened with America
1:02:40and the Native Americans and we just woke up tomorrow and could remember anything but just looked around
1:02:45and said Why on earth are they there is there this group of people in poverty that we except nowhere else in the
1:02:54country. We would we wouldn't let that stand. And I feel like this is another example of where history is no good.
1:03:01It doesn't it doesn't help.
1:03:03And what you care about is like what like what is the situation of people today are there people who who need help like
1:03:10let's try to get them help
1:03:11and I don't really care what the historical reasons are like it as to how they got there I care how much help they need.
1:03:19Today I don't know if I'm going to carry it off track here but that's that's sort of how I feel about that.
1:03:23It's a state said at the start of a good argument for the role of the media. What's going on today.
1:03:29Where do things need to be done today.
1:03:31I know it's this idealized maybe not you know yet when
1:03:34and where can I ask you like how much is the media focusing on that. None. Exactly none. No Is that right.
1:03:42That's I mean I can't speak to Indian reservations
1:03:45but it's not true that there are no parts of the media that are not highlighting places where there are serious
1:03:51problems in the world the media highlighting you know places where there's problems in the in the world. Fine.
1:03:57To me this is this is like a fixable problem with.
1:04:00In in the in a confined region that is allowed to exist if we didn't have historical knowledge of it it wouldn't it
1:04:06wouldn't be allowed to stay the way it is. Yeah I don't know that's never going to exist.
1:04:10Whereas the news media can does exist and can can do some stuff
1:04:15but I'm not I don't want to I'm not making the case for the news media as a force for good
1:04:20but I don't that's not particularly interesting to me.
1:04:24Yeah and I think it's a pretty lame argument when you say you should watch it because the fourth estate
1:04:28and it will make the world a better place.
1:04:30I make the argument that you should follow the news and stuff in the media just because you're a citizen of the world.
1:04:38And and I think it's good for you to know what the other citizens are up to in some way
1:04:45and you make a very good case why you don't.
1:04:48And as I said at the very start I respect it but this has been a moment and we've certainly devoted a lot of thought.
1:04:57So maybe we should move on to more important issues.
1:05:02I put this on it and it's a couple of weeks ago and I don't even know what to say about it
1:05:05but it was just a feeling that I had multiple times
1:05:08and this is going to make me sound really stupid OK But anyway no go for it I want to hear with a bullet point of the
1:05:17list because this is calling to me Do you think this is like I know we both joke about you know not not having lots of
1:05:25patients for spending time with little kids.
1:05:30But this is not what this is about this is about
1:05:32when you do spend time with kids which sometimes can be very pleasurable.
1:05:36It depends it depends on the kids get it just like people.
1:05:39Yes and I recently spent quite a bit of time with my nephew who I love very much and had had a really good time with.
1:05:47But there was one of motion that I often feel when I'm with little kids like he's like three is out or something
1:05:52and there is this feeling of I wrote superiority but it could also be described as kind of this sort of knowledge.
1:06:00Which you feel so like omnipotent when you're with little kids and you understand things so much better
1:06:08and like we adults are like these like gods
1:06:12and they're like trying to understand things you knew what they can't possibly understand
1:06:16and you have occasional use of these waves of emotion I just know so much more than you like I can impart so much
1:06:22knowledge on to you and you don't understand this but I do
1:06:25and I don't know what that I don't know what it says about me that I feel that over time it's like I'm trying to think
1:06:32of a really good example but I haven't I haven't really got one.
1:06:34But like like like a category like near a lake or something and you'll be like don't go near the lake.
1:06:41Can you stop them going into like the things you know so much more about why that is you know about drowning
1:06:47and oxygen and swimming and all these things like all these you have so much more knowledge than them
1:06:53and they like these like these little nothings that just know nothing
1:06:59and it's like a really I find a really nice feeling in a funny way. Does that make any sense.
1:07:05OK OK I have this feeling.
1:07:09But in the opposite way
1:07:12when I'm around little kids probably the thought that is in my head the most often is you just so useless at everything.
1:07:21When I look at a little kid so you can't do it you can't do anything.
1:07:25You know we don't live in an agrarian society where I can send you out to the field
1:07:29and you could at least pull up the weeds
1:07:30and do something useful you can't do anything useful you don't know anything about anything
1:07:35and you can't do anything
1:07:36and you're just a huge burden on society that we tolerate because eventually you'll grow up and you will be useful
1:07:42but not today. But doesn't that make you feel good because you are useful.
1:07:46Like you kind of like you're like one day you will be mighty like me one day you will be able to buy food one day you
1:07:55will be able to drive one. One day you will be able to.
1:08:00Can a DAW but now you cannot you know and the gods that can do these things and you are just like and and you
1:08:08and the other adults kind of look at each other knowingly like we know we know the stuff we know how to open a door.
1:08:15They just I guess I don't derive feelings of superiority by surrounding myself with uselessness.
1:08:23It's not like oh it's not like a menacing superiority it's not like one ha ha ha ha like evil it's just a kind of like
1:08:31you know it's a benevolent god like superiority that's a chip that's what I'm trying to say is that how you feel.
1:08:37Yeah you know how to stay out of this is really the point of this wasn't to say that I have a cause
1:08:46but just the God of children I am a God I am not God I can drive a car.
1:08:54Yeah yeah your god like powers are pretty pretty limited they are extreme I can only describe.
1:09:02Yeah I can't even do that well.
1:09:04It's like what is that what is that old old Onion article that I really like I am the worst God ever filled onion study
1:09:14revealed. Baby they're stupid.
1:09:19By the relatively large green capacities babies such as the one pictured here are so unintelligent that they are unable
1:09:25to distinguish colorful plastic squeak toys from food sources and goes on
1:09:31and on about all the things babies can't do I love the onion so good god like powers.
1:09:37Guess what show I which is why companies wanting to get up on my lap.
1:09:41Oh yeah you must feel super superior to a dog she doesn't even have linguistic capabilities.
1:09:46I don't feel around pets it's only it's only other humans and it's children I feel if I don't look at the dogs
1:09:52and think I am almighty markets different dogs but if anybody views you as almighty It is surely that.
1:10:00Dogs the dogs probably do view you as a kind of god.
1:10:04I doubt I doubt your nephew views you as a kind of God and he definitely doesn't.
1:10:07But do you think that God spin these do you think that I don't know how the god view you probably know favorably about
1:10:16a guest. Yeah I think I think the dogs the dogs definitely view you as some kind of all powerful magic being stopped.
1:10:26Stop feeding my god complex you know.
1:10:29But so I guess the bottom line is I don't know I do not have this feeling around children I mostly just feel that most
1:10:36children are totally useless.
1:10:38I do mean the occasional rare useful child and that is I'm always impressed then
1:10:43but it's you know most of the time is disappointing.
1:10:46What's an example of a useful job destines kids I would say destines oldest daughter in particular she's not a kid
1:10:52she's like you know she can get chickens and stuff she's like oh yeah that's what I mean
1:10:56but it takes that long for them to get to be useful.
1:10:59It's good when they're that out because then you can really start imparting knowledge and not ask you questions
1:11:05and you cannot I think you think you're imparting more knowledge than you actually are.
1:11:10But not sure how much how much you can actually funnel into their brains that lasts at all the last beyond the
1:11:17conversation that you're actually not and I try I try. I'm sure I'm sure you do try.
1:11:23Trying is not the question here and then if I feel like that's not working I just make a joke of it
1:11:27and I start laughing and kid rejects I guess I guess I guess they do have a rope and he poo jokes around children.
1:11:35Maybe I should try that always works I recommend. OK I'll keep that in mind next time around the child.
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1:13:28We're going to talk about this podcast cold cereal.
1:13:32Yes We're going talk about pod cast in our pod cast
1:13:35but it's somebody else's podcast it's not our own pod cast on I says this is dangerous because then people will start
1:13:41listening to other podcasts and then what will that mean for us I think that's good for us.
1:13:46I think people get sucked into the world of audio
1:13:50and you listen to a whole bunch of stuff I think people are audio people
1:13:54and they listen to lots of things so I don't I don't think it's analogous. OK And we're so good I mean.
1:14:00Obviously yeah yeah. Housekeeping about listen to to do the talking about.
1:14:05Yeah they I mean by family for every new person who comes into the world of listening to podcasts that essentially is a
1:14:11new addition for us. Yes that's what cereal has done really is live in our audience.
1:14:17Yeah yeah I like the sound of that.
1:14:21So do I this this podcast cereal has pain whatever you think of a has been a phenomenon it's like everyone's talking
1:14:28about a spinning all right to be popular it got through the gray News bubble it up through the five
1:14:34or so as you have you listen to all of it twelve episodes if you listen to it Oh yes.
1:14:38So we didn't that we mentioned it offhandedly on the last pod cast
1:14:44but which we should have properly set it for homework.
1:14:46We didn't do that but I had just finished listening to cereal and I think actually the day we recorded that podcast
1:14:53and I mentioned it to you you listened to the whole thing now right is that correct. I have I have.
1:14:58Should we draw a line in the podcast and say From this moment on everyone.
1:15:02Massive spoiler alert if you haven't listened.
1:15:05You might want to pause our podcast now go listen to the twelve hours of cereal I think it is and then come back
1:15:13and then you can listen to us talk about it because yes there are going to be spoilers ahead.
1:15:19And you know how we feel about spoilers so we just want to warn you.
1:15:22Now obviously some people will not follow the advice and will just listen to us talk anyway.
1:15:28I refuse to believe those people exist but they tell me they exist in the common. They seem to exist in abundance.
1:15:33So for those people who aren't going to listen to it
1:15:36but are about to listen to us talk about it I guess we owe it to them to explain what this thing is.
1:15:42Yeah well I would say I would back up and say that I first heard about three I don't remember exactly when
1:15:47but it seemed like there were there were a few articles that were getting passed around on the Internet about how
1:15:53there's some kind of huge pod cast resurgence which is a strange thing to write about in the first place.
1:16:00One cast went anywhere but what it really was there were a few pod cast that had had caught the public eye
1:16:06and cereal was one of them ended up becoming just a fad I think a phenomenon is fair enough to say it seemed like it
1:16:15was it was mentioned
1:16:16and covered absolutely everywhere once it started going live I think was mentioned first on This American Life is where
1:16:22they started. So it has been a big thing in the podcasting world.
1:16:27Here's what happened fifteen years ago a high school guy from Baltimore was convicted
1:16:37and imprisoned for murdering his recently ex-girlfriend who was also a student at the school.
1:16:43Right and he's been in jail ever since. Now very recently this case this guy always protested his innocence.
1:16:53Recently this case was brought to the attention of a reporter.
1:16:58And she started investigating us
1:17:01and you know raking over all the old recordings raking over the old trial was interviewing all the people who are now
1:17:10fifteen years later to try and get an idea of whether or not this guy was guilty or not.
1:17:16She also interviews the guy himself in jail which is you know keep up and then say yes.
1:17:22So anyway so that's that's the set up. Now it's done in quite an interesting way.
1:17:28It's done as a serial a serialisation So it's told in quite a unique way over these twelve episodes
1:17:34and the story unfolds.
1:17:37And it's not so much the story of what happened in the fall so that is unfolding
1:17:41but also the story is unfolding of this woman's investigation.
1:17:46So this kind of these two threads going on you kind of you're kind of unwinding the crime fifteen years ago
1:17:53and at the same time you're unwinding this woman's investigation now so often jumping back to things that happen.
1:18:00In the past and then it's things that are happening now in her investigation
1:18:04and it's just done in a very compelling way. It's very well produced.
1:18:09It uses it uses the mix of Odeo and recordings in the old in the new sound
1:18:15and music very well which I'm sure we won't talk about now and it just makes for a really compelling story
1:18:21and it has this this serialization nature to it that makes it quite addictive like chapters of a book you know I just
1:18:28want to know the next chapter. And very drawn out which is unusual for this kind of audio format in this way.
1:18:36So that's kind of in a nutshell in a small and show what's happening.
1:18:42Have I missed anything really really key in describing what is.
1:18:46No no I think that is that is a fair way to describe it it is a current investigation by Sarah Kane who is who works
1:18:53for N.P.R.
1:18:53She's not a criminal investigator
1:18:55or anything she is just a journalist of a murder that took place fifteen years ago now.
1:19:00Yeah and it is it is told in twelve parts I think ten twelve parts. Yeah. Each about an hour long.
1:19:06Which is why very personal it's very personal to it's very much her story of her investigation she's she's not sort of
1:19:12keeping an arm's length.
1:19:14She's you know I think she would argue she's doing her best to be impartial but she's It is a very personal story.
1:19:21It's sort of her story of how she's trying to unspoiled things and what she's learning
1:19:27and what she's thinking about about the case.
1:19:30So you listened to more recently
1:19:32but so you found overall you liked it very much with the very thing you thought it was
1:19:36but I liked it very very very much for numerous reasons.
1:19:40I tell you the best test for the fact that I liked it OK and that is I just couldn't get enough listening to him
1:19:48and I was manufacturing excuses for this
1:19:51and that I was like Oh I think I'll go for a big long walk this morning just so that I can put it in my ears
1:19:57and listen to another episode or I think I'll go and drive.
1:20:00That shopping center that's far away because that too too long drives past.
1:20:05It really took over my life I think I listen to it all in about two two and a half days or so.
1:20:11Yeah that is a good sign that it is a good sign
1:20:14and an interesting thing which you may come back to as well I I was saying to my wife the whole time you will love this
1:20:19you have to listen to it and she's like you know I'm sure I will but you know she wasn't listening to it
1:20:25and then she had to go for a long drive so I said Put on your phone just listen to a new Dr
1:20:30and now she has become completely obsessed with it to the point where she will come home from work having driven home
1:20:35from work and say I've just got ten minutes to go do you mind if I just put on the stereo listen to me
1:20:40and she's become completely obsessed with it as well and then yearly You are listening to it a second time through her.
1:20:46I'm listening to bits of a second time
1:20:48but I think I think it's really important to listen to this with as few spoilers as possible so I'm doing a really good
1:20:56job of just passing showing no emotion and passing no comment as you distance to it.
1:21:01She asked me questions and things and I'm just kind of I'm just playing a straight back to it to use a quick analogy.
1:21:07Oh oh yes of course a straight back is the straight bat swim in a straight bat. Yes Yeah. When the streak in the wings.
1:21:19Well as a first to weigh what never mind.
1:21:22Come on then tell me what you thought about what your executive summary
1:21:26and I made reference on the last podcast too I took a kind of vacation for myself from Christmas until early January so
1:21:35strange when you work for yourself because you have to decide for yourself what a vacation is going to end
1:21:39and I ended up listening to cereal basically straight over the course of two days and I was just just verging out
1:21:49and just just like I'm not doing anything at all today and I I had had this on my list to listen to a venture Lee
1:21:57and it crossed some threshold where I thought oh I'm going to give this a try.
1:22:00I and I was into one episode is like well I have to listen to the next episode and I don't have to do anything today.
1:22:05So let me kill him
1:22:06and then let me listen to the next one in the net so I think I listen to maybe five of the first day
1:22:11and the rest the next day. So in a very very condensed VERY BACK TO BACK.
1:22:17Time frame which like imagining you liked and so here is the thing you can out of a hat.
1:22:26I would say in general I like cereal.
1:22:30I liked what it was what it was aiming for
1:22:34but I have to say that by day two I was listening to it more out of frustration
1:22:42and wanting to conclude this thing than out of genuine enjoyment I care
1:22:46but I thought OK I can appreciate that yeah I thought that the first maybe three or four episodes were excellent
1:22:53and it really drew me right in I thought boy this you know.
1:22:57This is a really interesting story like I'm curious to see what what happens to him
1:23:01and like who ever made the theme song for cereal.
1:23:06Did an amazing job
1:23:07and they used audio really well in that where there's the automated voice from the Maryland Correctional Facility
1:23:13and it's put together in a in a very high production kind of way. I love the music I love music.
1:23:20But so here here was my frustration with this
1:23:22and if you listen to it more recently so you may be able to correct me on some of these points
1:23:26but my frustration in this was they were trying to talk about what happened fifteen years ago.
1:23:33Yes
1:23:34and even in the very first episode at the very opening thing that Sarah Canuck starts with is a discussion of how well
1:23:42could you remember a day that happened six weeks ago
1:23:46and she you know she takes random high school kids as an example and is asking them Oh where were you six weeks ago.
1:23:52I like with anybody the answers are just sort of vague and people have to just speculate. The culling. Oh oh well.
1:24:00One school six weeks ago you know was it work or was it a how they can even remember and they're just wrong
1:24:06and she starts with this premise of how difficult it is to remember where you were because one of the central points to
1:24:14this murder case is that siad himself basically said like he doesn't remember a lot of the details of the day that his
1:24:23ex-girlfriend got murdered because to him it was like it was just another day.
1:24:28There wasn't anything from his perspective because he claimed his innocence.
1:24:32Do you particularly remember about what happened then.
1:24:35And so Sara caning is kind of bringing this up in the beginning as what I felt was a terribly valid point that you
1:24:44can't remember clearly what you did.
1:24:46I mean when when she started that in the show I thought I can't remember yesterday very well.
1:24:51If somebody asked what were you doing at four pm yesterday I would have to say something like I think I was at home in
1:24:58my office in front of my computer
1:24:59but that's really what I'm really doing there is pulling up like a probability curve of where was I.
1:25:05Yeah you know it's a ninety five percent problem but I don't have any actual memory that at four four P.M.
1:25:10Yesterday it was in my office. So you know six weeks ago might as well be twenty five years ago where were you.
1:25:16You know certainly the unreliability of memory is a is a theme of the podcast and they say yes but this is
1:25:24but this is where my frustrations grew. So this is her starting point.
1:25:28In the first few episodes he's kind of laying down some of the facts of the case and building things up
1:25:33but then as as as time goes on I felt that that more
1:25:37and more of the episodes were could be summarized in some way as Sarah Cain Inc want people to remember the particulars
1:25:45of a day that happened fifteen years ago and she's trying she's interviewing people
1:25:51and she wants to know what were you thinking at this time or what was going on at that time.
1:25:55And that's kind of where my frustration came in and they said like adults.
1:26:00They say this is this is they were high school kids
1:26:01and now she's into using them as kind of grown ups ask Yeah I did on a particular day of the house.
1:26:07Yes that's it that's exactly it's like she's interviewing a thirty year old woman about where she was
1:26:12when she was sixteen. Yeah.
1:26:14Now and I guess I thought I went back just today actually the new We're going to talk about
1:26:22and I want to really listen to the opener because I thought if I mis remember this myself how she opened this story
1:26:27and I thought no no this was the case.
1:26:30She's really laying it thick at the beginning about how hard it is to remember stuff.
1:26:35But I felt like the rest of the show particularly after maybe the first three
1:26:38or four episodes it was like she completely did this and forgot about how hard it is to remember
1:26:44and she was she was annoyed with siad for not remembering anything about that day in particular.
1:26:50And she's trying to trace down people and ask them about what they were doing on this day
1:26:54and I kept waiting for the episode where.
1:26:59They you know she's a reporter why don't you talk to somebody about memories and how memories work.
1:27:05But this never came up in the podcast.
1:27:08And so I felt like a lot of I felt like a lot of the later episodes were exercises in futility where you know she's you
1:27:15know you know there was there was one girl in particular who she was trying to track down who she wanted to interview
1:27:21and I felt like what's the point of asking this girl what happened fifteen years ago.
1:27:26Anything she says doesn't even matter nobody can remember with any sort of detail no matter how confident they are in
1:27:33their memories.
1:27:34Fifteen year old memories are just are just so worthless
1:27:37and so that's what I kind of felt the last half of the pot the last half of the punk ass was was just this this futile
1:27:45attempts to reconstruct from people's minds the particulars of a day long lost to history.
1:27:52I think it is a fair criticism to say that the pod cast probably did run out a stain.
1:28:00And went a bit longer than it than ideally the content was worthy of that said I did think it was very good of a couple
1:28:09things you know we've already said a few of the things I think I've always had a problem with pod cast before we before
1:28:15we didn't even start a podcast and you
1:28:17and I one of my main criticisms of podcasts was that there's this kind of frontier of people in there you know in their
1:28:25bedrooms like you and I doing stuff which I think is very interesting and valid
1:28:29but for radio I always thought radio just saw pod casting as a chance to revision the stuff they were already
1:28:37transmitting and write a second bite of the cherry and I was very cynical about that.
1:28:42Yeah and this is one of the first times I feel like I've heard a professional professional radio people.
1:28:50Making something that almost wouldn't work on radio like I know this was broadcast on radio
1:28:56but it's not suited to radio because you have to have listen to the one before
1:29:00and the lengths vary as well which I was really aware of that's very internet either.
1:29:06Yeah it doesn't it doesn't fit in a particular class slot so it was kind of these professional cruft
1:29:13or audio people finally transitioning to make something for podcasting in much the same way that you could look at each
1:29:20even it's just like clips of T.V.
1:29:22Shows and then there are people who are making stuff that is bespoke so you could only work on your bike
1:29:28and this is this is one of the I know it I know it happens
1:29:32but this is the first time I've come across it where I thought that's it.
1:29:36If radio people want to break into this kind of ordinary thing this is how they do it.
1:29:41Yeah they did it she did it they did everything right.
1:29:45And yes it read out a statement there are a few criticisms of it that we can talk about
1:29:48but overall that that was the thing that impressed me most was yes you if you figure that this is this is what to do.
1:29:57You know give us a mate to give us some debt. Go go in detail.
1:30:03Now you have you know did everything right in that respect I think that that's a good point that I hadn't considered
1:30:07and just thinking through my own pod cast was one of the ones which I sometimes listen to is the is the Freakonomics
1:30:14one and if you listen to Freakonomics and I sum to a couple of times it never quite grabs me
1:30:18but I don't know if it is the case or not
1:30:20but that one really feels like this is made to fit some time slot on some radio program somewhere.
1:30:27Yeah and then we have also just put it on the Internet and there's nothing wrong with that
1:30:31but some something about it really feels like almost like it's a television show that we have just put on You Tube
1:30:37where they're like oh why are there these fade fade outs like on T.V.
1:30:41Shows when they try to put them on the Internet is like oh yes because that's where the commercials used to go there
1:30:46but now it does now is just an awkward scene transition
1:30:48or so baby safe it was a lot like that made my voice as a bit of a sausage factory where that is chopping up all the
1:30:54radio shows
1:30:54and splattering all over the Internet as podcasts where you felt like it's fair that this was made for me on my walk
1:31:02and I definitely grew frustrated with it towards the end.
1:31:07I grew frustrated with sacking in particular as it stretched on I remember there was something she was doing was like
1:31:12What are you what are you doing. I don't understand what point you're trying to make it did become a bit.
1:31:17I don't agree with you that she should have gone and spoken to memory experts
1:31:20and stuff because then I think it would have all become a bit where they are in a bit.
1:31:24The thing I liked about it was that I was so lost in the in the case and the people
1:31:28and like I was so absorbed by the characters and I think if she stepped out too many times
1:31:34and started talking to people who had nothing to do with it too many times she didn't do that
1:31:38but if she did it too many times it would have it would have lost me so I don't agree that she should have done that
1:31:44but I do agree it was too long and she did it started becoming a bit repetitive. A couple of things.
1:31:51The stuff before I started that I was cynical about it.
1:31:54I was very cynical about her being her story and I was a bit worried that she was going to.
1:32:00All of that may be had and she did she did make it very much about her.
1:32:04Sarah Kane and she did make it her story and I thought that would annoy me
1:32:09and I have to say it didn't much to my surprise I felt like I went on the journey with her.
1:32:15The other thing that I thought would happen was there would be endless endless periods of things I couldn't follow it
1:32:24like you know too many people like Bill called Bill called Sally at four thirty P.M.
1:32:30and Then John called Georgia and I would be
1:32:33and I wouldn't be able to hold all in my head it would become too bogged down by details
1:32:39and that did start to happen in a couple of episodes later on there were whole you know
1:32:43but what about the three fifteen KOTOR silence I went on like our God who said again I'm home
1:32:49and I have to say well when was a bit of that. Yeah the part in particular which was the.
1:32:56That these are called the three fifteen called so this girl is clean I think it was MacGregor's the letter of the
1:33:02alibis this was the notion in the ship. Yeah sorry. Yeah that's what it was.
1:33:07It's funny how these people are like become like so I say because I listen to it more recently like these names
1:33:12or to vent in my head.
1:33:13Yeah yeah yeah you're right about that
1:33:15but I definitely had a case where again some somewhere around three quarters of the way
1:33:21and I realized I was kind of lost about like what is the importance of this phone call and it's specially
1:33:26when I'm listening to this all in a row I know I am not good with this kind of stuff.
1:33:32Just in general of keeping people straight and so I did get lost
1:33:37but I'm aware that sometimes a bit of a difficulty for me is keeping track of of the people that they're all
1:33:43theoretical people in from the perspective of this radio program
1:33:47and so it's like aside from the main ones obviously you kind of have Jay the key witness at the trial a new girlfriend
1:33:54and a couple other friends and there's a few people but then I did start getting a bit lost.
1:34:00About three fourths of the way through.
1:34:02This is something else or like this I don't know if you were able to file the cell tower thing
1:34:06but that became a bit of a mess to me.
1:34:09I thought that I don't know if that was me or for that episode but I felt like this is not explained very well.
1:34:17I don't understand what's going on with this with all the talk about his phone where could he have possibly been what
1:34:22cell phone towers was his phone pinging
1:34:24and all the rest as I thought I did think it got a bit a bit lost in the in the weeds
1:34:29but big picture started bio last name I think we both seem to agree on that.
1:34:34Yeah you especially and also not you know spoiler spoiler spoiler.
1:34:38To me it lacked a big payoff at the end it did it did peter out.
1:34:43I kind of thought maybe she was holding something massive back
1:34:47and was going to knock my socks off at the end which was half the reason I kept listening.
1:34:51His chief is going to kill me at the end where she got what she got and it ended well but it didn't.
1:34:58I thought it was her wrist sickly impotent ending. Yeah just nothing just absolutely nothing.
1:35:05I was thinking about there are many different ways you know if you don't need an episode a final episode where it's
1:35:10like we've definitely convicted him or Oh and by the way you know we've set him free.
1:35:15I don't need that at the end
1:35:18but by her her final episode was just so shoulder shrug you know the thing that frustrated me about it is let me look
1:35:26it up the exact. If the final episode was called what we now hear and to bring this back to the memory kind of thing.
1:35:39I was kind of hoping that this final episode would do the thing where like OK we've been talking to all of these people
1:35:46and all of these witnesses but what are the actual facts of the case.
1:35:52And even that I felt like the final episode didn't do a good job of summing things up and it ended on such.
1:36:00Such a wishy washy ending it was I found it very frustrating and strange.
1:36:04I looked into some of the production and one of the things that I wonder is they had the first few episodes done yet
1:36:11and started broadcasting and then they kept going. Well that's what we did. Yeah that's that's what we did.
1:36:17I totally agree with that. I wonder if that affected the production.
1:36:24I wonder if if something like I would be really curious to know what episode is the first episode they did after it had
1:36:32started to air.
1:36:33I think they are smart though I think that allows them probably to shake a few trays loose you know having the stuff
1:36:39out there.
1:36:39It enabled them to then stop approaching people
1:36:42and have people approach them as I think that was technically very smart to do a few that
1:36:46when no one knows about it because.
1:36:48Because then you can get people to talk without realizing they're going to be famous.
1:36:52And then once they're all famous you can you can get the people in a different context. That's that's smart journalism.
1:37:00I almost certainly would have recommended they do the same thing if I was in charge of this if I was the producer
1:37:04and say look let's let's get a few ahead of time and work it out
1:37:08but I just wonder if in this particular case because it became such a phenomenon that that that negatively affected
1:37:15that it it didn't just become oh there's this great podcast called cereal.
1:37:20It became the central pod cast in a whole news narrative about this is the most popular podcast that has ever been made
1:37:28and then brought into this this story about pod cast a really popular and everybody should go listen to cereal.
1:37:34I wonder if that was just if that was too much attention and that that affected it in a negative way.
1:37:41Yeah well I mean yeah maybe it was too big
1:37:45but I don't I don't I think I don't I I don't think I think it helped them more than it hurt them.
1:37:51And interesting story that came into my head when you were talking about memory
1:37:55and maps on to the podcast in a funny way. I mentioned that my wife is coming home and.
1:38:00Listening to a section and she put a section on in the dining room.
1:38:03I was eighteen and I was listening to it obviously for the second time.
1:38:08And as as I was playing I was I vividly remember to where I was when I listened to it like a week before the closing.
1:38:15Oh you know I was listening to this part at the bottom of the hill near our house as I was driving home
1:38:20and driving the car up towards the house. It was burned in my memory I remember everything about it.
1:38:25Holding the steering wheel hearing everything and then we listened a bit more
1:38:29and about five ten minutes later I was like oh yes now I remember this because this was just as I was approaching the
1:38:35house like pulling up to the house
1:38:37and not finding a parking space clear as clear as day this memory that was really really vivid.
1:38:44But then it suddenly occurred to me the pop culture has been going for about ten minutes
1:38:48and that drive is is like thirty seconds right.
1:38:51How can this be right and I was thinking what's gone wrong what's gone wrong and I was thinking and thinking
1:38:56and eventually after racking my brains it suddenly occurred to me.
1:39:00No I was walking home that day and I was actually walking up the hill
1:39:03and then that's why I was ten minutes because I then walked to the straight and was walking up to the house
1:39:08and it was just it was funny that a pod cast so much of that memory gave me such a surprise showing me how my memory is
1:39:14so unbelievably unreliable and I was sworn blue if you'd asked me that I was in the car listening to you
1:39:20and suddenly you know it wasn't you I was walking my memory was completely wrong.
1:39:26It's a silly story but none of it and I see the point.
1:39:30It does tells exactly into my kind of broader thoughts about this which which is a similar thing is like OK So Cain is
1:39:39trying to reconstruct memories from from fifteen years ago.
1:39:42But they we know why I wanted her to talk so much to a memory expert because she did have someone just have a couple of
1:39:50experts who came into the show and it's like we just we know so much about how how frail human memory is
1:39:59and more importantly how.
1:40:00How easily influence a ball the memory is and this is something people just are just aren't aware of
1:40:08but how how trivially simple it is to not even on purpose but to put false memories in people's heads.
1:40:16And this whole case about whether
1:40:19or not this guy was able to kill his girlfriend I felt like the whole thing was just framed in this bizarre way
1:40:27and I don't know I thought there was there was like there was a more interesting story maybe to be told that did touch
1:40:34on some parts of the criminal justice system in general because it felt like OK we're supposed to have the presumption
1:40:40of innocence aren't we.
1:40:42And like the real the real nail in this guy's coffin is eyewitness testimony from one guy who says he saw a guy called
1:40:52J. Who said he saw siad he didn't see him commit the murder but he saw the body. Later is what he said.
1:40:58He showed him the body in the truck right his car he showed in the body in the trunk of his car which is just kind of
1:41:04crazy I guess. Let me back it up one level which is that I could never be on a jury for very many reasons.
1:41:11Well one of which is I made the whole video about net net
1:41:15and a trolley I made that whole video about jury nullification and so on that is the probably make a video
1:41:23and you forget what was in your own video so I would have to go back and watch my video.
1:41:26But there is a particular question the lawyers ask which is something to the gist of would you make a verdict.
1:41:32Would you make a decision in this case based on information
1:41:35or based on something outside of the law which is their sneaky way of trying to ask about jury nullification
1:41:40and I'd have to say yes I would do that. So I believe in jury nullification.
1:41:44But secondly the reason why I would never be on a jury is I could never convict anyone of a crime based on eyewitness
1:41:52testimony as a as a major factor. I feel like we know how how terrible eyewitness.
1:42:00Testimony is if I was if I was told to go you're going to be on this jury.
1:42:03OK Well I'm basically going to disregard everything that any human says if you just show me what the physical evidence
1:42:11is and will make a decision based on that.
1:42:14But but things that people say it counts for nothing in my mind right it's all just words right.
1:42:20I kind of agree with the guy
1:42:22but like if you showed me a dead body in the in the back of a car I'm I don't remember what you're wearing
1:42:30or what time it happened or exactly what we said
1:42:33but I would remember that see cheapie gray showed me a dead body in the back of it OK.
1:42:39But you're doing you're doing something different here you are you are starting from the presumption that you are
1:42:45seeing something. I'm saying instead that like I Q's I say I saw Brady Haran kill someone.
1:42:55Right and now you are on trial for murder. And the key witness in that is me and I'm saying I thought you could.
1:43:04Jurors should just ignore that.
1:43:06It doesn't because we know people just say things that aren't aren't true
1:43:11or that they don't know that they don't even know which are
1:43:13and this is one of the things that I just there's a difference between a willful lie
1:43:17and a hazy recollection as well I'm sorry
1:43:20but yeah if this guy if this witness guy who saw the body in the back of the car was trying to frame this guy
1:43:28or was covering for someone else a lie that he's lying.
1:43:31OK that is a that is a judgment and a decision to be made but I think
1:43:37when you start saying oh wait this happened what time did it happen and things like that.
1:43:41I think that's a bit unfair sometimes to pick a memory apart if the core truth to it is true or like me remembering
1:43:50when I was listening to the podcast going up the hill like the fundamental truth is I listened to the podcast.
1:43:56Where exactly where I was sitting exactly what.
1:44:00Time I was here and there is details I got wrong but the Colonel at the core of history and like yes people lie
1:44:10and you can't just rely on the system only
1:44:13but I think sometimes disregarding eyewitness testimony because of trivial details being wrong is a little unfair.
1:44:22But my counter to this is that we used to burn people for being which is based on eyewitness testimony.
1:44:31You'll have to forgive me if I don't find eyewitness testimony terribly convincing.
1:44:35Well not that that's as I said that's different that's because the person lied and that's why we don't rely on it
1:44:40but I don't I did OK but
1:44:44but here's what I feel like the fundamental thing here is the internal state of somebody else's mind is unknowable.
1:44:52And
1:44:52when I talk to people about memory you're coming at it from the same position that many people do which is that they think
1:44:58about their own memories in their own head
1:45:00and I feel like that you can't you can't do that you have to think about it in terms of evaluating what somebody else
1:45:07is saying. And you can't do the same thing you don't know the internal state of that person's mind.
1:45:15You don't know whether they're intentionally lying or whether they don't even know that they're lying.
1:45:20I mean one of the things that I did think was relatively good about Syria was they did they did kind of point out a lot
1:45:26I wish they had done more of it but they did point out that like the whole system that surrounds this.
1:45:32And so they talked about the main witness Jaye
1:45:35and how before the police officially interview him which is the interview they actually record they do something like
1:45:43an unofficial pre interview that was three hours long that they don't record where they're talking to him
1:45:52and then they do the the real interview.
1:45:55And there's been just a lot of studies on this how showing like this is that this is the.
1:46:00A prime case for like weird false memory things happen where you keep talking to somebody.
1:46:06It's a high stress high pressure situation and people in that situation want to help the authority figures
1:46:15and even if they don't mean to they start manufacturing more
1:46:19and more details in their mind to match up whatever it is the police I mean and that's
1:46:24and that you know this was just there was a lot with the phone calls explaining when phone calls were made.
1:46:29I still come back to the body in the trunk of a car and I don't think that there is a complete lie or I was not
1:46:40and I don't think there is I don't think they I don't think he didn't see the body
1:46:45and then the police jogged his memory or told him can you just say it for us.
1:46:50He either has decided to tell this fundamental lie to get this guy in trouble in big trouble or he hasn't.
1:47:00No but hold on and on and let's just let's just take that for a moment.
1:47:03Right it was just the eye that he's chosen to lie or he's not. Yes. That isn't that is fundamentally unknowable.
1:47:12You we don't have machines yet that can pry into his brain and that's why we have a jury trial because someone had.
1:47:18Because until unless it was videotaped unless God is sitting there knowing everything that's how we have to decide
1:47:26things into everything in the universe is recorded everything is known.
1:47:31We have people have to weigh have to listen to the stories listen and weigh up the evidence
1:47:36and make it of course it's of course it's unknowable.
1:47:40No one knows but a decision has to be made we can't just let every murder go every murder that's not videotaped.
1:47:49My my view on it is this if you were move all the eyewitness testimony is the physical evidence still compelling
1:47:57and I think that is that should be.
1:48:00We the bar especially in things like murder cases is totally removed Jay is there still convincing physical evidence
1:48:07that that somebody or that this guy that this guy killed his ex-girlfriend.
1:48:10If he answer that question is No I would I could never possibly convict someone I wouldn't care how much eyewitness
1:48:17testimony there was. OK I just think I think humans are just more unreliable in their memory than they think they are.
1:48:26Even for huge huge events like this. I mean this is a terrible this is a terrible example.
1:48:34But I will bring up people who believe they have been abducted by aliens. Right. Do you think those people are lying.
1:48:47Sometimes other times they could it could be sort of mental illness and so other things going on not understand
1:48:56but I think some of them align. Yes some of them are lying but here's the thing.
1:49:01I've met people who think they have been abducted by aliens.
1:49:04Yeah people I would say are not they're not homeless people on the streets with tinfoil on their heads.
1:49:12They're normal functioning members of society that I don't think they're mentally ill
1:49:17and I don't think they think they're lying but they have some memory that they were abducted by aliens.
1:49:24Yeah
1:49:24but this guy in jail in Maryland hasn't gone to jail because someone saying they were abducted by aliens you know I know
1:49:31I know you my central point here is you're acting like it's out of the realm of possibility that someone could
1:49:37fabricate having seen a dead body in a trunk when the display like an invented memory.
1:49:42There are sane people who think they have a right they have flown into outer space and been poked and prodded
1:49:49and then deposited back on Earth the impressive thing about Jay's invented memory then is he also knew exactly where
1:49:55the murder victim's car was in a really obscure place. So yes I like it.
1:50:00This is this is the question right was that invented as well or I mean the police didn't know where that was
1:50:04and then he said and this is where the car is and I went to this obscure place
1:50:08and the car was so this this to me now gets back into like is that physical evidence that that is kind of what I wanted
1:50:16I wanted like the what we know episode to more clearly sum up
1:50:20and I feel like I would need to like if I was on the jury I would want to look through those kinds of those kinds of
1:50:26things and say OK you know
1:50:29and if someone was able to relay information that they could not possibly have known that they could not possibly have
1:50:34been communicated to them I would count that as a kind of physical evidence. I mean a lot.
1:50:39Stachel evidence is important and I don't know because I was in there fifteen years ago and you
1:50:44and I just pick up a nutty to listen to a podcast.
1:50:47Let's not let's not forget that this reporter also wasn't there six ten years ago and she's very emotionally involved.
1:50:55And this jury was very quick to convict this guy. And they and they and they were in the trial.
1:51:02And they don't have a whole lot of doubt
1:51:04and you know there are there are a lot of people expressing doubt who are involved actually in the trial
1:51:12and the case other than people who need to Skyline and have emotional attachments
1:51:16and that actually counts it in me deciding whether or not I happen to think this guy is guilty
1:51:22or not which is completely irrelevant to anything because I'm on the other there's not
1:51:25but that's not going to involve in making my own little decision in my head which is what the game of this whole serial
1:51:31thing is that counts that counts for something.
1:51:34The fact that the people in the room had no doubt and they saw the testimony and they were in the room
1:51:42and they made a judgment call about the witnesses and that does count for something
1:51:47and I I completely hear what you're saying about memory and I understand.
1:51:52But I've actually spent a lot of time in court. I've I've sat through murder trials.
1:52:00I've sat through some breaks I think murder trials and some very boring metros for my work
1:52:04and it is a completely different experience and I must say that this pod cast was the closest I've seen
1:52:13or heard to conveying what a real murder trial is like a less interesting to hear but it's still quite a while.
1:52:23Yeah it can still be super boring.
1:52:25I mean there was one episode where she did try to point out how boring huge sections of a trial are actually are that
1:52:34it's not super exciting.
1:52:37Part of my frustrations are just I think that the whole the whole Again there are many times when I when I'm watching
1:52:42or listening to some piece of media and I cannot help but think of how I would want this thing to be
1:52:47or how I would want the thing to be different
1:52:49and because it started to go downhill I started to find myself thinking more and more about that
1:52:55and I kind of wanted it to be some other things.
1:52:58You sound very one thing this is like the head discussion all over again.
1:53:02I think something started away that excited you
1:53:05and because it didn't play the way you want to play you sometimes got a bit harsh but.
1:53:09No I well I do think I think this should have been six episodes not twelve episodes I think I think it could have been
1:53:16a really amazing thing it's six episodes with the exact same stuff right just you know you could do a super cut of this
1:53:22and take the twelve episodes get it down to six
1:53:26and I think you could have some of that pretty amazing without without adding all the kinds of stuff that I would want
1:53:30to do if I was
1:53:31and if I was in charge of this which I was not you know there was something about the length of the journey that
1:53:36appealed to me and I kind of agree with you but I think maybe if you're cutting too hard
1:53:43and there was something about the pace one of the strengths of this podcast was the pacing
1:53:50and I think if he became too snappy into C.D.P.
1:53:54Cry it out and that it would equal a really quick and really excellent I think it would lose some of that.
1:54:00During this I don't know going to call six hours snappy six hours versus twelve out there I just I think I think all of
1:54:11a veteran at a slow game content wise I don't I there was there was something about the pacing that came to me say so I
1:54:20don't I don't buy a grape or maybe era folk and can keep harping on the thing about I witnessed us
1:54:25and I don't think so. OK Here we go.
1:54:27So I was going to look at some things about the Innocence Project which I think was actually the group that I can work
1:54:35with in this show didn't she. Yes but just on a quick summary from them here.
1:54:39So the Innocence Project basically they try to go back in for cases similar to this where there may be D.N.A.
1:54:45Evidence that can exist in a murder case if it can be tested now they want to test it because fifteen years ago you
1:54:52couldn't it was not as prevalent as it is now.
1:54:55Yet though the truck they're trying to free people who have been falsely imprisoned
1:54:58and in the United States they have freed three hundred plus people at this point based on D.N.A.
1:55:04Evidence physical evidence that exonerated them from not like it couldn't possibly have been you you know we have some
1:55:11other unknown person's blood all over the victim kind of thing. Yes.
1:55:16So the most common reason for a false conviction is unreliable eyewitness testimony that that the jury used.
1:55:27This is for seventy five percent of wrongful convictions according to the Innocence Project.
1:55:33So seventy five percent of the people who by their measure were wrongfully convicted were done so based on eyewitness
1:55:40testimony. Again this is not it's not good news for eyewitness testimony. You definitely have opinions on either side.
1:55:48This testimony I do well I do I do and I also I guess I just think the whole.
1:55:55I don't I don't want to get all upset again and I get on like on a rant but.
1:56:00I think that future generations will judge us very harshly for our current prison system.
1:56:09Our current prison system is horrifically capricious and unnecessarily barbaric and accomplishes nothing.
1:56:18So many systemic problems in it that I think this is the same kind of thing that like like we look back in history now
1:56:24and go wow you know how could how could slavery be so wildly present so obviously a horrible thing how could society
1:56:33just accept that as fine
1:56:35and in one hundred two hundred years people will look back on our prison system as it currently exists
1:56:41and think similar similar thoughts like how could people possibly accept that
1:56:45or if existant So I guess that's partly why like I
1:56:49and I get very frustrated with a lot of things that are related to the criminal justice system.
1:56:54It's I do not think that it is good in any way.
1:56:59Story arc a story I quite liked from when I used to sit in trials one that gives me some sympathy for juries
1:57:06and I was just really sticks in my memory. Well I think it sticks in my memory you've got me wondering.
1:57:11But anyway yeah maybe maybe not but this is it was this.
1:57:16A lot of people don't realize this but I notice quite a lot how often
1:57:19when jurors come back in after they've deliberated on a verdict about to be given how often a few of the jurors are
1:57:25crying because of the time the process and the torment I've just been through what I've heard today.
1:57:31And I remember I covered this big elaborate murder trial
1:57:34and these people were accused of killing this other guy by sending him a bomb in the post that he then opened
1:57:40and exploded and killed him.
1:57:43And one of the main reasons they wanted to kill this guy was because he was going to dog one of the killers in for
1:57:50being a drug dealer
1:57:51and this guy in the trial completely denied he was a drug dealer like this was like I'm not I'm not a drug dealers you
1:57:59to kill us here. Isn't using this against me because I've never had anything to do with drugs in my life.
1:58:04It's crazy so I imagine that would have left some doubt in the jurors minds.
1:58:09So anyway a whole bunch of other things happened which I'll tell you that sometimes it was a really interesting trial
1:58:14and the jurors came back in and some of them were crying because they weren't sure they'd done the right thing
1:58:21but the verdict was delivered and they found these people guilty.
1:58:27And there was this amazing atmosphere this one the most amazing atmosphere ever is to be in a room
1:58:34when a big verdict is about to be given rockets.
1:58:36It really makes you realize what like they have to touch the atmosphere with a knife names so I mean it's really a very
1:58:44physical thing and.
1:58:46So this verdict was delivered and there was this feeling of sort of emotion
1:58:49and excitement all these feelings were going on and then the judge did something in a really interesting way.
1:58:55Pretty pretty emotional way and he said before I dismissed the jury.
1:58:59This doesn't always happen he said before I dismissed the jury. I want you to stay here.
1:59:03Here is I want you to see this next bit and then he turned to the prosecutor
1:59:07and said Mr Prosecutor can you please tell me a little bit more about the accused because there's a whole bunch of
1:59:12stuff that the jury wasn't allowed to be told and the prosecutor stood up so triumphantly
1:59:17and said YES I CAN Your Honor the defendant has been convicted of heroin traffic trafficking three times
1:59:24and he has all these drug convictions and he really would have all the drug convictions and it just changed everything.
1:59:30And and the jurors who weren't allowed to notice the look of relief on their face and the
1:59:36and the weight that lived it still sends tingles down my spine now the way it changed the jurors like that were like
1:59:44Thank God you know we were right but the one thing that made us think we were wrong.
1:59:49The motive instantly went away and all the other physical evidence was still there and I made the right decision
1:59:55but the one thing though unsure of was motive because of the laws and that was it.
2:00:00Really amazing moment but it also made me really sympathize with what she was going through.
2:00:05Was reading available credible experience. Can I ask you two final questions.
2:00:10Sure I know you don't deal in absolutes because you know if but if you can if you can try
2:00:17and give me I think a good deal and I don't know if you are sick. Well then give me a yes or no to the cooler.
2:00:24Would you recommend someone listen to cereal. Yeah yeah I think so. It's worth listening to.
2:00:30It's worth giving it a try. OK.
2:00:32Unless people like it
2:00:34and I wouldn't recommend anybody watch her to terrible the second thing is not not what would you do if you're on the
2:00:43jury do you think he did it and I'm sorry. Do you think he did.
2:00:50After listening to twelve episodes not would you convict him. Do you think he did it.
2:00:57OK OK I have a longer thing to say about that. So why don't you first.
2:01:02Obviously you would recommend that you first tell me what your answer that question is I would obviously I would
2:01:06recommend serial I think it was just a fantastic thing.
2:01:09Yes and wonderment are and yes they recommend and I do think he did it.
2:01:19I think he I think he committed the crime that he's in jail for.
2:01:24Not that what I think matters and not right and I don't know if I was on the jury when I was done
2:01:28but after listening to this I think you did and I'm surprised the reporter doesn't.
2:01:37So mark my answer my answer to your question is I think it is fundamentally unknowable in the in the current state.
2:01:51I guess I guess the reason why I feel like this is that this is a longer I don't know if my answer is longer
2:01:57and more complicated it is. In some ways I don't think whether he did it or whether he didn't do it is relevant.
2:02:07I think in the in these like people people want these answers
2:02:12and I just I don't think that that's that's really what matters I think it's all it's all a question about evidence
2:02:20and probabilities and reasons.
2:02:22And I I I don't think that a jury should have convicted him of that crime based on based on what was presented.
2:02:35But of course that is in no small part biased by my I don't believe witnesses I don't care what they say under any
2:02:41circumstance. It is it is a relevant factor.
2:02:46I think this this came down into a what is an interesting case
2:02:51and what Sir King herself was kind of doing sometimes in the in the show was trying to see like because we had this
2:02:58window of twenty one minutes where he was unaccounted for
2:03:01and it's a question of could he get from the school to murder his ex-girlfriend
2:03:05and then get back to track practice in time and.
2:03:11I felt like they were trying to find ways to show that he he could have done it in this time.
2:03:17There was just enough time if everything if everything went right.
2:03:21But I feel like our whole justice system is supposed to be set up on the presumption of innocence
2:03:29and so you have to presume that he is innocent.
2:03:33And the fact that he had time to go and commit this murder
2:03:36and come back makes him no different from anybody else who was on the track team anybody could have gone there
2:03:43and come back in those twenty one minutes is nothing special about him except that a jury is looking at him sitting
2:03:51there during the trial. So I guess that's kind of my long winded thing of saying I don't have an.
2:04:00Opinion at all on whether or not he did it.
2:04:02Do I have a feeling just as someone who he knows humans and hears things
2:04:07and just puts things together in the head you don't even have a feeling I know I understand you think he could be
2:04:12convicted and if he can't be convicted he copped a plea and he should walk free free whether he did or not.
2:04:17I'm not asking you that I'm just asking you what you feel as a human hearing twelve hours of people talk about this
2:04:24including the including the person who was convicted. We hear a lot from him.
2:04:31You don't just you don't have a feeling you don't just have a gut feeling because that's all I've got a bit of evidence
2:04:40that he did and a bit of evidence that maybe he didn't and just from what I know of humans and what
2:04:45and what I think of all the humans I've met and putting it all together in a big blend
2:04:50and I got through with it I want to
2:04:51or not I don't have a gut feeling if you told me Brady you must know I have a gut feeling at the end.
2:04:56I'm sorry I will and I have one. Are you telling me you don't have one.
2:05:05Well I guess I do but it is it is very slight
2:05:10and like I said I think it is a relevant I don't I know I know it's irrelevant.
2:05:14Mine is relevant to my claim that anyone who wasn't on the jury's opinion is irrelevant
2:05:22but that we've spent all this time talking about it I'm just asking if you share with us what your gut feeling is.
2:05:29Have you got a reason for not sharing it.
2:05:32Now No I well I guess only slightly in that I think it sometimes just detracts from the other arguments that I'm trying
2:05:39to make in this in the same way like with my humans need not apply video I did there was things I didn't want to talk
2:05:45about because I think they were distracting and so my gut feeling in this case is that he didn't do it
2:05:52but I don't want that to for people to be like oh that's why you're focusing on his testimony.
2:05:58Yeah right that's why I'm.
2:06:00I'm hesitant to say that I can't because if some piece of evidence comes out tomorrow that there's like you know well
2:06:06you know this shows so clearly that he did it. Like I said this is relevant to me.
2:06:13Like I don't I don't care I didn't change my opinions on eyewitness testimony
2:06:17and how horrific the whole justice system is. I just I feel like I don't know.
2:06:25I don't like a lot of stuff that's wrapped up in this and it's what I do it's what saved them successful.
2:06:34Yeah
2:06:34but I think something you're very notion about like having gut feelings about stuff that's exactly the kind of thing
2:06:39that scares me about humans and particularly humans on and on juries.
2:06:45I'm not I'm not so sure how much juries are actually using any kind of of evidence
2:06:52and how much they're just going on their own gut feelings like when I was doing the jury.
2:06:57Jury nullification video I was looking into a bunch of stuff
2:07:00and it's like you can find some just horrific studies about how people make decisions like ugly people get get longer
2:07:09sentences. You know I like beautiful people don't like one of the things like OK there.
2:07:17There are vastly more men in prison than there are women because men tend to commit more violent crimes.
2:07:24But for like if you look at very similar cases that are committed by a man
2:07:29or a woman like a woman tends to get a shorter sentence on average than a man for the exact same same kind of crime
2:07:35and one of them or one of the more famous ones which is the most like there's not a jury
2:07:40but it is a horrific example to me of the capriciousness of human decision making has to do with parole boards
2:07:47and basically you want to see the parole board just right when they get in or right after they've had lunch.
2:07:57Yeah but like the longer it's been since they've.
2:08:00On the less likely they are to grant parole
2:08:04and all this kind of stuff to him he is like does not bode well for humans making any kind of rational decisions
2:08:11when they're faced with another human being's life in their hands
2:08:15and so I feel like Man I bet a lot of this comes down in the jury room to basically even though jurors won't admit it.
2:08:23It's a question of how much they like the witness Jaye and how much they like the defendant like
2:08:29and they'll backtrack in their mind their reasons for going one way or the other.
2:08:35But I feel like I don't know the criminal justice system is too important for for a lot of this kind of stuff like I
2:08:43feel like the threshold for convicting someone should be incredibly high to counteract a lot of just the randomness of
2:08:52humans.
2:08:53I like Ray you know having got failings in the criminal justice system is incredibly dangerous
2:09:00and you have an impending
2:09:02and prevalent that's that's the thing that really worries me it's not like oh this is a dangerous thing we have to be
2:09:06careful of. It's more like now every juror ever.
2:09:11They get a sense of the worst thing in the world I mean how often in life I mean we've evolved these things that we
2:09:18don't even completely understand this ability to know when someone's lying.
2:09:22This OK but stop right there
2:09:25or even that I don't like the way that phrase like you're presupposing that it works right.
2:09:31We have evolved the ability to know that someone is lying.
2:09:35Let's go this far hasn't it stopped us from Bush that we thought might have a big danger especially But again you're
2:09:42pre-supposing that your lie detection ability works really well.
2:09:47Right
2:09:48and what might actually be the case is it works fifty one percent of the time right which is good enough to get the
2:09:54species through but it doesn't mean like oh everybody's really good at detecting lies but.
2:10:00I find that like so much of the stuff people start from the premise that they want right.
2:10:05Oh you know humans are going to detecting lies are you have you double blinded this because
2:10:11when you do turns out people are crap right people are terrible at this
2:10:15but they are way over estimate their abilities on this kind of stuff so I know I've been very ranty on this pod cast
2:10:22and I'm sorry about that I don't use your passionate guy.
2:10:26Yes that's right I am dense I was going to come into that one at least being interested in some current news
2:10:32but this is fifteen years ago but the current news is about the pod cast.
2:10:37That's that's how I found about it through you know things things of interest to the global community find their way to
2:10:44me like the serial podcast. Heaven help someone if you and I were ever on a jury that's for sure.
2:10:51I will never be on the jury I will never be allowed on any jury which I think I would make an awesome juror which also
2:10:56doesn't it doesn't.
2:10:58Yeah I think on a jury not in there's no way in America I would get on a jury because you made your video.
2:11:07No no because they ask you the question about jury nullification which is basically instant dismissal instant dismissal
2:11:13and they ask questions about eyewitness testimony.
2:11:16And there's there is no lawyer that would accept a juror who says they wouldn't value eyewitness testimony because you
2:11:24have it like again you have to remember it it like I mean you know just like you have to be aware like the the the the
2:11:33defense and the prosecution are picking jurors and there's a bias towards trying to pick people who are influential.
2:11:42They're not they're not looking for like the platonic ideal of of their citizens you know that they don't want people
2:11:49who have experience with that with that they don't want lawyers on the jury like they don't want any anybody who has
2:11:55experience with with anything that's relevant to the trial like I've seen occasionally.
2:12:00People read the notion of having professional jurors and I think that might be less crazy than it sounds
2:12:07and I think that's an interesting notion that like maybe we shouldn't have this weird system where we're trying to pull
2:12:13influenza pull people from the general public to serve on juries
2:12:17and maybe we should have people who are who are used to the procedures and used to how this works.
2:12:22I mean there may be all kinds of other problems with that
2:12:24but it's like it doesn't sound like a crazy idea if I think about it for for more than a few minutes.
2:12:30Not saying I'm for it but I just it's crossed my radar as a potential potential alternative. Are we done with Syria.
2:12:38I guess we're done with serial but probably done all together I mean I think so.
2:12:44Anything else now you know the news nothing triple the five but I just checked C.N.N.
2:12:49Dot com and there's lots of stories I want to talk to you about right now.
2:12:53I mean I go see what's And if it was important.
2:13:51Well no actually what would you want me to say you think I used the baby say one frontally is funnily enough I think.
2:13:58B.B.C. Sport. And then. So what sport you says happened before I checked.
2:14:03Like would use actions incentives and if I open up bbc dot co dot U.K.
2:14:09Now you didn't use one click and I'm sorry the news is that what you want was top story. Watkins X.
2:14:17Cleared over abuse image I have no idea who that is. You know that the Charlie Hebdo stuff presumably.
2:14:24Yeah yeah I saw that on Twitter. I'm aware that that kind of thing like across my radar leaders in election T.V.
2:14:33Debates Rao that's remarkably uninformative title. Oh snow snow isn't storm sweep across the U.K.
2:14:41There we go the annual snow pocalypse I love I love it has snowed Ryan
2:14:47but I can say this now here at the distance it makes me sad it hasn't come here but I always say I hope it's nice
2:14:53and my wife's like snow is terrible there is something there's an image or Asia plain areas are playing
2:14:59and laws look at it it's you probably already knew them or across that ran across them you parades now
2:15:05and he's now pro snow or rain to snow do you like it
2:15:09when it snows like do you like if I said Do you have course I love it
2:15:12when it's no that's one the worst things about living in London as it doesn't snow so if I said I could make it snow
2:15:18it's not an O.B. or White and fluffy when you go out tomorrow so I do it.
2:15:21Yep I don't have a just but my god complex I do know I have.