Hello Internet

H.I. #11: Stream of Irrelevancy


00:00:00   We keep turning away because the microphone. So I was trying to have something else in front of me. Although actually. [TS]

00:00:07   And she's one of the have a spare computer under the tape was accounted for. [TS]

00:00:26   I wish that was original and that's a terrible start for season two. Love. Hello Internet. [TS]

00:00:47   Season five back from ten and yet we're back for another ten episodes for hello internet. [TS]

00:00:54   This is again is the funny thing for us to be recording because we just put the last episode up [TS]

00:01:00   and I know because of some some scheduling uncertainties the next episode will probably not be up until the very end of [TS]

00:01:06   April. So once again just like at the beginning it feels like we have a little secret. [TS]

00:01:11   People aren't sure people are guessing. Are there going to be more episodes and that we know. [TS]

00:01:17   But obviously you dear listener at the moment I'm speaking do not know [TS]

00:01:21   but of course now that you're listening you do know. [TS]

00:01:23   So welcome back and I hope you so stick with us for another ten episodes of two dudes talking on hello internet. [TS]

00:01:32   So I was speculating about why you've decided to go for another ten. [TS]

00:01:36   And I've come up with a few possible sort of reasons starting with the least likely options first. [TS]

00:01:43   I thought maybe you just might really enjoy talking to me and you like the sound of my voice [TS]

00:01:47   and you underestimate yourself. Brady I do really like talking. [TS]

00:01:52   Well maybe that's maybe that's the whole reason may be so many people have subscribed to the services. [TS]

00:02:00   I have advertised on the pod cast that we just had to do more like it was just ridiculous the number of people going to [TS]

00:02:06   audible in square space and using the code the hello internet code and just like they demanded another ten episodes. [TS]

00:02:13   That is that is the best way to show support for the show at this time [TS]

00:02:16   and yes I do know from advertisers that they have been happy with the response so far so that certainly helps. [TS]

00:02:22   I thought maybe you had more to say you want to bring the teaching profession down further with more of your so [TS]

00:02:30   scathing attacks on the education system. Not really you know we were talking about this before. [TS]

00:02:35   Like I feel like I don't want to talk about teaching anymore [TS]

00:02:39   but that you are going to be trying to trick me into some things that I might regret you're going to have to do it [TS]

00:02:44   today and follow up. [TS]

00:02:45   But finally I think that the main reason for another ten episodes of them is the sudden [TS]

00:02:50   and runaway success of a plane crash and X. [TS]

00:02:55   You have really latched on to this one my friend I can tell you are super excited about having it little segments at [TS]

00:03:01   the Beacon I haven't been this excited about something since the word freebooting Turbo. [TS]

00:03:06   So either that link the other day where it's like now in the urban dictionary [TS]

00:03:10   and I don't buy I was quoted I was like quoted in quite Max about saying it like I was like a source of information. [TS]

00:03:17   Yes not only not only a source [TS]

00:03:19   but you were basically the original source of this use of the word so I thought that was very well done to get into the [TS]

00:03:27   urban dictionary like that Urban Dictionary might be the stepping stone to the Oxford English Dictionary And so this is [TS]

00:03:33   the start that that quotes illustrious travel through the world of respectable citations. [TS]

00:03:40   Wow I mean obviously the word already exists. [TS]

00:03:43   I mean I've appropriated it for other purposes [TS]

00:03:45   but if we could make it to that that would be the proudest thing that has ever happened to me other than getting into [TS]

00:03:53   the Guinness Book of Records nothing will ever top that but Oxford English Dictionary would be a close second. [TS]

00:04:00   There's a two day the two most important books in the world surely get the correct words in the dictionary. [TS]

00:04:05   I couldn't possibly think of anything more important than that. [TS]

00:04:09   Now what was the was that the pine things and what's more this periodic table. [TS]

00:04:14   Oh laws periodic tables which I that's that [TS]

00:04:18   but that's probably a topic for like a whole episode one day because it's just such a good story. [TS]

00:04:21   OK OK we'll save that but curious curious listeners can go find that out I'm sure. [TS]

00:04:27   Cal's just going to Brady's channel search through several thousand videos and eventually you will find it. [TS]

00:04:32   Yeah just watch all of them and you come across I've actually got some follow up. OK follow up. [TS]

00:04:38   Now I know you don't want to talk too much more about teaching but you going to have to. OK so I have to. [TS]

00:04:44   So you may remember in episode nine I mentioned my sister is a sort of a teacher [TS]

00:04:49   and yes quite high up in the teaching world these days she's pretty important. [TS]

00:04:54   And she had to listen to Episode nine [TS]

00:04:58   and she has also listen to episode ten now so I wanted to share some of her thoughts. [TS]

00:05:05   OK I would say she wasn't massively happy with everything you said. [TS]

00:05:11   And the funny thing was the day I sent it to a she had just come back from Iraq. Stan the world education summit. [TS]

00:05:19   She had just been let over the world's best teachers [TS]

00:05:22   and all the people who think teaching is really really important so I was I think she was on a real high [TS]

00:05:26   and feeling really good about teaching English are going to be recommending me as a speaker on of their future call [TS]

00:05:31   because the funny thing was if you can say you're a mouse I can't believe I've even used Gray's videos in the classroom [TS]

00:05:38   so she's used to U.K. One a few times in lessons in that but I think I think she might put an end to that now. [TS]

00:05:44   Anyway she was she was good spirited about it but she did feel pretty passionately and sent me a bit of a rant [TS]

00:05:51   and she agreed with a few things she disagreed with a few things [TS]

00:05:54   and that was one thing she was particularly passionate about and that was when you kind of said that. [TS]

00:06:00   It's a sort of scared or it's sort of an unwritten rule that you don't talk about students not being brought [TS]

00:06:06   or you know not being particularly capable [TS]

00:06:09   and you know beyond you know beyond beyond being able to attain certain levels. [TS]

00:06:16   And she said to choose do you talk about that and it's actually very important that they do talk about it [TS]

00:06:21   and it's one of the most important things they do. [TS]

00:06:23   This kind of differentiation and and not only using data [TS]

00:06:28   but teachers should always be talking about what they think students are capable of [TS]

00:06:32   and what their abilities are so they can ensure that they are not under performing even the ones who aren't going to [TS]

00:06:37   become brain surgeons. [TS]

00:06:40   You know they need to make sure that people are retaining what they're capable of attaining whether [TS]

00:06:45   or not it is academic greatness or just a low level and teaches. [TS]

00:06:51   I'm always talking about the abilities of their students and who's good at what. [TS]

00:06:56   Yeah little things here the first is again like we discussed in the previous episode it's hard you can't go back [TS]

00:07:06   and edit what you were saying. I sort of tried to make it clear there but maybe it didn't come across. [TS]

00:07:12   When teachers talk amongst themselves obviously they talk about you know boy that kid is not the sharpest knife in the [TS]

00:07:21   drawer you know that that is that is standard kind of teacher talk. [TS]

00:07:25   What I was what I was trying to get at a little bit is that sometimes pressure from the not the teacher level [TS]

00:07:33   but the management level of refusing to acknowledge the shall we say the limits of some children from the managerial [TS]

00:07:41   level and that that that's kind of the pressure that I was referring to. [TS]

00:07:48   I mean my sister is at that management level there but she she felt strongly she people differently. [TS]

00:07:54   But yes she wasn't a manager at the school year etc Another thing I put up with was. Or you P.G. P.G. [TS]

00:08:02   CA that the conversion P G C That was it. [TS]

00:08:07   I mentioned that and she and I you know your experience of that [TS]

00:08:11   and how kind of you know the the bright eyed bushy tailed contenders for often the ones who fell away with all the hard [TS]

00:08:18   bitten cynics like you with the ones he went on to actually become teachers [TS]

00:08:23   and show you one of the things she's she said a really important part of that course is where you are placed [TS]

00:08:29   and what Mentos you're given [TS]

00:08:30   and a lot of those brighter people are thrown into some real Lion's Den particularly London scolds [TS]

00:08:37   or given shoddy mentors and that that is probably the most important thing she said. [TS]

00:08:42   When when people are coming up through the ranks to become a teacher what they're exposed to [TS]

00:08:46   and who they are given at that important time very important. I that one hundred percent. [TS]

00:08:53   I did say a little bit to people but I have to say when I was at the P.T.C. [TS]

00:08:58   Course there were two mentors in particular that I had one of the university [TS]

00:09:03   and then one who was at the first school that I taught at and. [TS]

00:09:09   I think it is very very unlikely that I might have made it through that course without their support. [TS]

00:09:16   So you have those those people mattered quite a lot the mentors that I was with so I know I'm not going to argue. [TS]

00:09:21   I'm not going to argue that at all. [TS]

00:09:23   And obviously I don't know the school that every everybody else went to [TS]

00:09:27   but I was at schools with some of some of the other students who were on that university course with me as well. [TS]

00:09:32   But yeah especially once you get to a school [TS]

00:09:36   and you're teaching for the first time in the person that you're with then is is incredibly important because yes the [TS]

00:09:44   first few lessons can be quite crushing. I remember my first chemistry lesson was just incredibly devastating. [TS]

00:09:53   And my mentor just handled it perfectly by just treating it as that's the way it always is right the first time it is [TS]

00:09:59   just. [TS]

00:10:00   Always a disaster and let's talk about that [TS]

00:10:03   and you know that's the perfect kind of attitude to take the I owe a lot to my first two mentors in my P.T.C. [TS]

00:10:10   Another thing we didn't discuss and my sister reminded me of a couple of funny stories from our family. [TS]

00:10:15   One in particular I'll share because I really enjoy it and that's the issue of motivation for students. [TS]

00:10:20   My sister my sister my mother I should say was a very good student. [TS]

00:10:26   My Her sister my auntie was a not a very good student [TS]

00:10:31   and was always bottom of the class that she was obsessed with horses that she would run around the school yard [TS]

00:10:37   pretending to be a horse. [TS]

00:10:38   And once you put a blanket over the front fence of the house and to sit on the blanket potential was riding a horse [TS]

00:10:44   and all at what for the sake of the story I was say nineteen because I'll be funny but I'm sure he was a little bit OK. [TS]

00:10:50   Anyway my she really wanted a horse you know what to do go doesn't want a horse. [TS]

00:10:55   There was no chance she was going to get one. [TS]

00:10:58   My their father My grandpa said to her when you if you come top of the class I'll buy you a horse. [TS]

00:11:04   Confidence in the knowledge there was no chance she would ever come to I think you know what happened next. [TS]

00:11:11   The only reason you know in this story is because of what probably happened with a head down she worked like a Trojan [TS]

00:11:16   and came top of the class and my completely flabbergasted grandfather had to buy her a horse next year. [TS]

00:11:26   Bottom of the class again and for going to class. [TS]

00:11:30   It's what would have been great motivation is I've bought you the horse [TS]

00:11:35   but to keep the horse from the glue factory you need to stay at the top [TS]

00:11:39   and I bet she will see this is also a bill really is in the contract here because we didn't expect that there was going [TS]

00:11:46   to ever happen but I bet maybe if the glue factory was on the horizon she would have still been tough. [TS]

00:11:52   Let me read what my sister at the end came out just so we've got something on the record in our podcast she said. [TS]

00:12:00   Well of years in tough areas in the U.K. South London and I loved it. [TS]

00:12:03   I love inspiring students to achieve more than others think they can Bay As a side note you know she pointed out some [TS]

00:12:10   of them have just become you know pizza delivery people or something but that's more than what was expected of them. [TS]

00:12:16   A lot of them of become the first in their family to go on to further education. [TS]

00:12:19   I'm very lucky to get up in the morning and I love my job and I know we different every day. [TS]

00:12:24   Whatever people say about teachers. [TS]

00:12:26   Nothing Bates all those Facebook messages and notes I get all the time from ex-students saying thank you very much. [TS]

00:12:32   He believed in me and you changed my life. So there we go. Now we've got a few links here. [TS]

00:12:39   One of them was an article that I think I said you are saying on the B.B.C. News website. [TS]

00:12:45   We read about the hours that teachers work. [TS]

00:12:48   Yes yes yes and yes he sent that to me [TS]

00:12:51   and I was just looking it over before the show I was flabbergasted by this I can't believe that those numbers are [TS]

00:12:57   accurate. [TS]

00:12:59   OK So do you have the other listeners what it was like about every head take his which I guess is the top of the hate [TS]

00:13:05   and the boss on a sixty three point three I was awake at the end for our American listeners that's basically the [TS]

00:13:11   equipment of the principal of the high school is what they're talking about a second primary classroom teachers fifty [TS]

00:13:18   nine point three hours secondary school teachers in the classroom fifty five point seven hours per week. [TS]

00:13:26   They said long hours. Is this true. [TS]

00:13:29   Well yes before we before we started you were doubting the veracity of these numbers [TS]

00:13:34   and can you why do you why do you doubt these numbers. Well because they're very long hours. [TS]

00:13:41   My mom was a school teacher. [TS]

00:13:42   I lived with my mom so it's not like I have not been exposed to working schoolteachers [TS]

00:13:48   and yet she could work at home you know and sometimes she had to work not marking things [TS]

00:13:53   and I don't know it just seems like a lot of that was because you know I was a day. [TS]

00:14:00   Before I was awake to have to have to add another twenty hours means you're having to do another four hours every not [TS]

00:14:08   every day the way I'm not on I'm not going to I don't want to make the teachers angry at me you want to make them angry [TS]

00:14:15   at me. You want me to say the things that I know you might agree with. [TS]

00:14:18   Off air on air no faces numbers of come from a survey that's been run by the Department for Education. [TS]

00:14:27   Yeah you know this is this is where it's come from I'm sure we'll put a link in the show I know it's you know you [TS]

00:14:32   retain. How many hours a week were you working. [TS]

00:14:37   This is the key question here is partly how [TS]

00:14:41   or who are the surveying so I will say that my experience beginning as a teacher was that my first year I would say I [TS]

00:14:53   was probably working more than sixty hours a week as a teacher my first year [TS]

00:14:59   but that's because teaching is a is a job that comes with a lot of overhead [TS]

00:15:04   and infrastructure that needs to be set up so you're going through the lessons for the first time. [TS]

00:15:14   There's so much more to do [TS]

00:15:17   and I would say near almost every waking hour of some sort in those the first academic year was spent working towards [TS]

00:15:27   teaching at some point it was just terrible [TS]

00:15:29   and I had a little I had a little friend at my first school who was also in her first year as a teacher I forget what [TS]

00:15:37   the proper term is it's you Newt and cutie. [TS]

00:15:41   So you're a newly qualified teacher but you have this probationary year and so we were in cuties together [TS]

00:15:48   and that was also very helpful for staying in the job to have somebody else who was going through it at the same time [TS]

00:15:53   as I was. We would sometimes talk about the horrors of you spend all day at school and you spend. [TS]

00:16:00   All evening preparing for stuff [TS]

00:16:02   and since I know everybody loves to hear about dreams this might be the one time in life with these mentioned dreams [TS]

00:16:07   the horror of it is [TS]

00:16:08   when your whole life is obsessed by something your brain only has one thing to work with for dreams at night [TS]

00:16:15   and so I would end up dreaming about teaching and then wake up in the morning [TS]

00:16:20   and have this awful feeling like I felt like I just worked for eight hours. [TS]

00:16:24   But I haven't and now I need to get up and go and do it [TS]

00:16:28   and it was it was it was it's a very trying time for newly qualified teachers is that that first year. [TS]

00:16:36   So yeah if I was designing a survey where I want to make sure I get those numbers as high as possible I would try to [TS]

00:16:43   survey teachers who were as new as possible because that that dropoff is very quick. [TS]

00:16:49   It's front loaded it's it's very front loaded and then in subsequent years you start recycling worksheets [TS]

00:16:55   and unison plans and so in subsequent years you start is like me [TS]

00:16:58   and I mean this is rounded off here at let's say fifty five sixty hours I would say that this number was more accurate [TS]

00:17:03   for my second year as a teacher you know sort of drop dropping it down [TS]

00:17:08   and then again I'm trying to trying to live censor my thoughts here but but then if I only Here's Hughes. [TS]

00:17:21   After your second year everything is not brand new. [TS]

00:17:26   There's two paths maybe the teachers start to take [TS]

00:17:31   and this is not necessarily a teacher specific problem I think this is a kind of knowledge economy problem. [TS]

00:17:39   Many people even you know yourself and myself have jobs where it's hard to pinpoint when something is done. [TS]

00:17:49   What like what does finished actually look like. [TS]

00:17:53   And so for your videos you can always make the editing a little bit tighter or for my videos I can. [TS]

00:18:00   We've researched them a little bit more. [TS]

00:18:01   And teaching is a job that has an endless amount of boundaries that are like this you can always mark a paper a little [TS]

00:18:13   bit more thoroughly you can always spend a little bit more time preparing the next lesson. [TS]

00:18:17   You do have a deadline and I eat like you have to eventually give the lesson time in the same room in a set [TS]

00:18:23   and there are deadlines [TS]

00:18:25   but I think there's too many decisions with a lot of the kind of work for a teacher that can that can stretch you are [TS]

00:18:33   definitely making things better [TS]

00:18:35   and this is this is where there are super dedicated teachers who both market papers incredibly thoroughly [TS]

00:18:43   or I think for example the thing that I hated the most as a teacher was I was writing up profiles of students for for [TS]

00:18:50   Americans like the report card [TS]

00:18:52   but they would have to be a long comment at the bottom you know with all sorts of remarks about how the student was [TS]

00:18:57   doing it in the class [TS]

00:18:59   and you know from my perspective as a physics teacher it's sort of like the only thing I care about is the number on [TS]

00:19:03   the test. All of the rest of it is sort of irrelevant and in a physics class. [TS]

00:19:07   But so those profiles for example are something that you can spend an enormous amount of time on [TS]

00:19:12   and you can make profiles very good and very in-depth. [TS]

00:19:17   So because there's a lot of that kind of work I think there is there is room to always be legitimately making your [TS]

00:19:26   stuff better but it can end up just sucking in an enormous amount of time out of your life [TS]

00:19:32   and if you do this is a man I wish I could edit the next sentence and I'm going to say well destroyed it. [TS]

00:19:43   I'll just try to do my best. [TS]

00:19:46   If people hear a big blanket I mean that's a how to put this if you think that you are genuinely make. [TS]

00:20:00   Being a difference in students' lives. [TS]

00:20:03   It is not an unreasonable calculation to spend an enormous amount of time trying to make everything that relates to [TS]

00:20:14   your teaching better. [TS]

00:20:16   I get that it's a rational decision to improve things to spend an extra hour making something five percent better. [TS]

00:20:24   Yeah that's not crazy. [TS]

00:20:26   If you're starting from the proposition that you are genuinely influencing the rest of someone's life you know that's a [TS]

00:20:33   huge upside. [TS]

00:20:36   And so you know your investment of time now pays dividends over the lifetime of an entire other human being [TS]

00:20:45   and so that's why I don't necessarily doubt these these numbers. [TS]

00:20:50   Well I mean I always if you ever ask someone How many hours a week they work I think you should always subtract five [TS]

00:20:57   and the lake is for you know people inflating their own. [TS]

00:21:01   Yeah yeah that's that's true people if it's a self survey [TS]

00:21:04   and you're overestimating then you know just just by natural [TS]

00:21:07   but I don't I don't these numbers don't strike me as as wildly potentially off you know I don't know they don't strike [TS]

00:21:14   me as just totally crazy because because I think as as we can kind of see. [TS]

00:21:21   Well Yet the question is what kinds of people are teachers. [TS]

00:21:27   Do they do teachers think they're making differences in students' lives I would say you know if you ask teachers the [TS]

00:21:33   answer is generally yes. [TS]

00:21:35   And so it's not unreasonable to spend a lot of additional voluntary time on that kind of on that kind of work you know [TS]

00:21:42   I mean I wasn't I wasn't questioning that kind of motivation from there I was just more amazed by the number of hours [TS]

00:21:48   but then again you know when I was a boy playing cricket [TS]

00:21:51   and computer games all day I was probably blissfully ignorant to the ten hours a night my mum spent slaving over tests [TS]

00:21:58   and writing lesson plans. [TS]

00:22:00   I've apologized to her and all the other teachers because it sounds like they are working as a house. [TS]

00:22:06   The There are a couple of little minor things I had here in the follow up on the notes that we made before. [TS]

00:22:13   One was a talk by Bryan Caplan which I think you were going to raise. [TS]

00:22:17   Oh yeah yeah I just want I just want to mention it for you to listen to someone basically give a better explanation [TS]

00:22:24   than I gave about the importance of what's called the signaling in education so this is the guy I mention he's an [TS]

00:22:30   economist who I was talking about some of his work about predicting graduation rates from university based on what you [TS]

00:22:39   know about a student going into university [TS]

00:22:41   and he knew someone in the red flags that he was on a podcast called Econ Talk recently. [TS]

00:22:48   And the pod cast that is run by an economist who interviews other economists I'm a subscriber I do quite like it [TS]

00:22:54   and it's an excellent podcast because you you get to listen to people who maybe you don't agree with explain themselves [TS]

00:23:02   in the fall which is rare in the world sometimes. [TS]

00:23:06   I'm looking for the link in the show notes if you want to hear more from the professional economist side about how [TS]

00:23:13   signalling works [TS]

00:23:14   and research into what is the intrinsic value of schools you can follow this link in the show notes go listen to that [TS]

00:23:20   episode I think it's about an hour or so long discussion and I think it's worth following up on [TS]

00:23:26   and if you prefer just to hear too much as you have absolutely no qualification in economics to keep listening to [TS]

00:23:33   internet. Yes that's exactly right. If you want to hear to dude's just kind of like talk about whatever. [TS]

00:23:40   Oh I was a teacher once and here's my anecdotal thoughts there. [TS]

00:23:45   My mum my mum was a teacher when I was a little boy so let me preach to you know that what it's like to be a teacher [TS]

00:23:50   but my anecdotal experience counts for nothing in the world of science [TS]

00:23:54   but I guess if you want to hear it this is the place for you Lou. [TS]

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00:25:28   and half I was on a bus in London I could fix all the things that I needed to fix. [TS]

00:25:32   Then it was just an amazingly simple and great experience [TS]

00:25:35   and I didn't have to have it on the back of my mind all day that I hadn't included what I needed to include so that [TS]

00:25:40   little app is definitely a must have under the right circumstances. [TS]

00:25:44   So square space is good for everyone whether you need a simple web site solution or you're a developer [TS]

00:25:49   and want to get into the code. [TS]

00:25:50   There are so many options and it starts at just eight dollars a month [TS]

00:25:53   and includes a free domain name if you sign up for a year so start a trial with no credit card required [TS]

00:25:58   and build your website today and. [TS]

00:26:00   When you decide to use square space for real which you definitely will because they're so good. [TS]

00:26:04   Make sure to use the offer code hello internet. [TS]

00:26:06   All one word to get ten percent off and to show your support for this pod cast. [TS]

00:26:10   Also there's a link in the description that is that squarespace dot com slash hello internet which can get you that [TS]

00:26:15   same ten percent discount that you can click. So once again we thank square space for their support. [TS]

00:26:20   Squarespace everything you need to create an exceptional website. We've also had an artist at work in the red. [TS]

00:26:27   I understand. [TS]

00:26:28   Yes I just I wanted to put together how Crawley I think is the way to say it is a fan on the Reddit [TS]

00:26:37   and also on Twitter. [TS]

00:26:39   I'm assuming it's a he [TS]

00:26:40   but not one hundred percent sure you never know on the Internet has been Mima flying the pod cast in the most recent [TS]

00:26:46   episode and putting together just some funny pictures with the stick figure C.D.P. [TS]

00:26:50   Gray [TS]

00:26:50   and then a summary of what I was saying in the in the episode so I'll put a link to the one that I like the most from [TS]

00:26:56   the last episode which was just says as a some it's a summary of my position from last time it says the more you want [TS]

00:27:03   to be a teacher the more you won't want to be a teacher. [TS]

00:27:07   Which I thought was a very funny way of summarizing some of the points I was making last time. So thanks to him. [TS]

00:27:13   What was this in the read hunt and peck. Someone asked if you were a hunt and peck typist. Is that the case Brady. [TS]

00:27:23   I'm guessing that they thought so based on that little moment where we can hear you typing so I thought I was casting [TS]

00:27:30   aspersions on me that I would just be that type of person. [TS]

00:27:33   But they were basing it on evidence [TS]

00:27:35   and I saw that question I think you know it did seem to take him a long time to type whatever he was typing. [TS]

00:27:43   Are you a hunt and peck typist. What do you think. Like from what you know of me. [TS]

00:27:48   Here's the problem I always just assume that everyone can touch type [TS]

00:27:52   and I'm always surprised to discover people who cannot touch type so I would just without even thinking of it just [TS]

00:27:59   assume that you could. [TS]

00:28:00   It but I feel a strong moment of doubt here that you are not a touch typist [TS]

00:28:05   but you would have to be since you worked at a newspaper and you had to write quickly. [TS]

00:28:12   So my my emotions are thinking maybe you're not a touch typist but my logical guess would be that you are. [TS]

00:28:23   So which half of me is wrong here. Gray You should always trust your feelings and emotions. [TS]

00:28:29   Oh is that the lesson I'm learning today. Go with your head I am a hunt and peck. [TS]

00:28:36   I cannot believe that I can believe I trust your feelings they do you just. [TS]

00:28:45   I got how do you survive in the world you know I'm going to write on. [TS]

00:28:51   I mean I thought of this if you queue to get by just fine. [TS]

00:28:54   But now every time we instant message back and forth we're going to have to feel sorry for you. [TS]

00:28:58   Always they're trying to find you know the letter S. On the keyboard I don't know where it is. [TS]

00:29:03   One eye with the SES it's up to the I think the general area and then [TS]

00:29:09   and then once my hands moving in that general direction you know light travels very fast. [TS]

00:29:15   But but so you're looking at the keyboard while you're typing. Yes that's sad. [TS]

00:29:22   What are you doing about reading a book or something. I'm looking at the screen while I'm typing. [TS]

00:29:26   Oh I know what's on the screen because of the buttons on the table and [TS]

00:29:30   when you say it like that it's hard to argue with. They think there's something new about you today. [TS]

00:29:38   Yeah you just think that little bit less is gradually eroding of I'm definitely a rating because they wouldn't have [TS]

00:29:45   noticed that I am slightly disappointed I must admit I thinking of picking and and clicking [TS]

00:29:51   and things like that I just wanted to quickly clarify clarify I just wanted to round off a point I started making in [TS]

00:29:57   Brady's paper cuts in the last effort. [TS]

00:30:00   Which was a bit mask leaking that I was hearing on radio show is the reason I wanted to bring it up this partly because [TS]

00:30:06   this is become a problem with the advent of digital radio which is something I didn't get across I do most of my radio [TS]

00:30:13   listening in the car and I've always had a pretty crummy analog radios [TS]

00:30:17   and I've only got a digital radio in my car for the first time recently [TS]

00:30:21   and that is what has opened up this world of distracting noises and mass cooking. [TS]

00:30:26   So it's not always great it's not all positive it's not always good to hear everything. [TS]

00:30:32   and you know it's the same with H.D.T.V. Like everyone so H.D.T.V. Is wonderful but there are a whole bunch of T.V. [TS]

00:30:39   Shows and problems and things that have come along as a result of that like I know the fake blood they're using in T.V. [TS]

00:30:48   Shows had to be sort of completely changed because all of a sudden blood didn't really warn H.D. [TS]

00:30:54   T.V.'s and a whole bunch of sets for T.V. [TS]

00:30:57   Shows had to be rebuilt because Little joins and seams and things that used to get away with on children's T.V. [TS]

00:31:03   Shows were suddenly these glaring problems. Sometimes less is more. And I don't get it. [TS]

00:31:13   Well if you like if you like analog radio so much you can choose to listen to analog radio can't you get rid of your [TS]

00:31:19   fancy digital radio player because people start taking their cars to let audio shop saying can he get this like really [TS]

00:31:27   expensive X. and Radio and chuck it. Is there not a fuss I have no I don't nothing about cars. [TS]

00:31:31   Well of course I'm not going to do that [TS]

00:31:33   and you do need to go out Why are you not going do that because the digital one is better because the voice because you [TS]

00:31:38   hear the voice more clearly. So it is better. There are pluses and minuses. [TS]

00:31:42   OK OK now I'm not going to get away with this right this distress because people always go oh there's pluses [TS]

00:31:48   and minuses. Yes but I almost never do the pluses and minuses in any situation. [TS]

00:31:53   Balance perfectly given doesn't mean I can winge about the minuses I know that you will enjoy about the minuses but [TS]

00:31:59   when you say. They always not always better. [TS]

00:32:02   What you really mean is there's still some negative aspect that I don't like you [TS]

00:32:07   but what's interesting is that it's a new negative aspect. Isn't that interesting. [TS]

00:32:11   It's like it's not there it's not like they didn't quite make it better by enough. It's a whole new problem came along. [TS]

00:32:17   I find that fascinating and we're doing a show here and weather and so I should have something to talk about [TS]

00:32:26   but I feel like my brain just has no response to this. This line of reasoning from you it's just. [TS]

00:32:32   Well that's because I'm completely correct. [TS]

00:32:34   I mean if you disagree you would certainly say something you know of course a new tech is going to be new problems with [TS]

00:32:42   new technology the only way. Yes but your new problems are always better than your old problems. [TS]

00:32:50   It's a handling that's interesting it's like oh that's a that's a broad statement. [TS]

00:32:55   Well I'm going to say it with regards to technology that is generally true all technological advances are positive is [TS]

00:33:01   what you're saying. I would say that. [TS]

00:33:07   Now this is a debating problem with you you only need to find one counter example here. Like a nuclear bomb. [TS]

00:33:15   Well I know you could argue for a nuclear bomb. Yeah it is. Here's the way you look at it is that the the. [TS]

00:33:30   It's that you have to look at the sum value of the progress [TS]

00:33:35   and so I think at any particular stage a certain amount of progress have negative features but in general [TS]

00:33:43   when you're summing up of the pluses and minuses the pluses just clearly went out all the time. [TS]

00:33:49   That's that's that's what I would say. So the world is a better place. Yeah yeah. [TS]

00:33:54   It's like wow a camera saw I saw some info graphic on. Got it a little while ago. [TS]

00:34:01   I think it was from the Gates Foundation [TS]

00:34:03   and it was a graphic showing how people die around the world just just globally [TS]

00:34:08   and the interesting thing was to see in the first world kind of areas you're talking about death from cancer [TS]

00:34:15   and heart disease [TS]

00:34:17   and the discussion in the comments about the second hole why you know Why is cancer killing so many people in America [TS]

00:34:23   and the answer like Why is cancer killed so many people is because malaria doesn't kill so many people. [TS]

00:34:30   I guess as you solve certain kinds of problems you're going to have new problems that that like that is just the way [TS]

00:34:39   the world works [TS]

00:34:40   but I still say on balance your new problems are problems you would much rather have than your old problems. [TS]

00:34:50   So you think if you could if there was some way to measure like the happiness of people or of society [TS]

00:34:56   and you applied that now it would come out. [TS]

00:34:58   It would constantly be rising like someone in the eighteen hundreds of the mid nineteen hundreds is less happy now see [TS]

00:35:05   this is where I might be the topic and how long we talk about this this this of this on the drives me crazy. [TS]

00:35:11   Happiness is so tricky and I'm always just kind of appalled by people who think backwards in time [TS]

00:35:19   and imagine how great it was back then you know with their out houses [TS]

00:35:25   and their cholera because there was a simpler life. [TS]

00:35:28   Yeah but I get annoyed by people like you who say because I'm going outside to go to the toilet [TS]

00:35:32   and didn't have an i Pad They're not capable of being as happy as I am now is that what I'm saying. [TS]

00:35:38   I think humans have a natural bias to think that they used to be happier than they actually were [TS]

00:35:46   and then this is also just within a single human lifetime. Well I think there's a bias the other way. [TS]

00:35:51   You're right and that's why we have terms like the good old days. [TS]

00:35:54   Yeah but there's also a real bias to think because we live longer and because. [TS]

00:36:00   Yes we have mobile phones where like somehow superior or better than people who are only in black [TS]

00:36:06   and white photos in a day. Well I mean being alive is superior to being dead. [TS]

00:36:12   I think that's a sort of hard to argue and have less points less of the minuses. [TS]

00:36:21   Yeah I guess it does hurt me with that [TS]

00:36:28   but now I think we've got to fix it you can see it's like your line of reasoning sometimes physically hurts me [TS]

00:36:36   and I know you sometimes you do it just you know what I tell myself [TS]

00:36:42   but people just people just tend to think that they used to be happier than they currently are [TS]

00:36:48   and there's there's some. [TS]

00:36:53   I have again this is this is where running a pocket like this we weren't intending on talking about this I can't [TS]

00:36:57   possibly research all these things but I have looked at some [TS]

00:37:00   and in the past some interesting research about happiness [TS]

00:37:04   and it seems like this is a hot topic in psychology now I don't know if that's if that's actually the case but. [TS]

00:37:11   There are just some very interesting experiments that show how people's self assessment of their current happiness can [TS]

00:37:18   be just weirdly off from how they report their actual level of happiness [TS]

00:37:25   and the way I've seen these things are usually with with the people crisping the study will be text messaged randomly [TS]

00:37:32   and they'll have to rate on a scale from one to five how happy they actually feel at that particular moment [TS]

00:37:37   and you compare that with with self reported descriptions of their happiness leader about that actual time you can see [TS]

00:37:43   that there's there's like a big difference between the reported happiness and then the measured happiness [TS]

00:37:49   and that the biggest difference I saw on this one issue can make people dislike me a lot. [TS]

00:37:55   Talking about new parents two parents of of of newbie. Yes and that as opposed to parents of a baby. [TS]

00:38:05   I guess I guess I mean it is time parents is what I was [TS]

00:38:08   and that you had your first kid that the reported happiness later just does not match at all the data at the time so [TS]

00:38:18   you know if you randomly ask in the first year of new parents how happy they are you always get a like oh God I'm so [TS]

00:38:24   tired and my whole life it just seems like it's falling apart everything is miserable. [TS]

00:38:28   Yeah and then [TS]

00:38:29   but six months later if you ask someone oh how happy were you are you know it was a magical time in there ARE YOU can [TS]

00:38:35   you get all these new experiences [TS]

00:38:37   and everybody does this a lot with all kinds of things I think this is also why people remember you know past periods [TS]

00:38:44   in their life. As happier than they currently are. [TS]

00:38:49   And an interesting thing as well is that people level of happiness doesn't really change very much over the course of [TS]

00:38:55   their life [TS]

00:38:56   and so their self description is is weirdly out of whack with what we sort of know about people's levels of happiness [TS]

00:39:02   is that they don't change all that much [TS]

00:39:04   but people have a real perception that there are there are variables so I think his history on this whole scales kind [TS]

00:39:10   of follows the same way that people imagine how amazingly happy people were in the past [TS]

00:39:16   and the answer is like people in the past probably actually weren't that differently happy from people now [TS]

00:39:24   but they had just worse problems to deal with than if I were dying of cholera whereas I'm complaining about mouse [TS]

00:39:32   clicks on that interaction [TS]

00:39:34   or any of the audio fidelity on my digital radio was too high you know that it's just terrible action what's right [TS]

00:39:43   and meanwhile you know two hundred years ago you have people needing to give birth to Chen children so that two of them [TS]

00:39:50   will live like this is. [TS]

00:39:51   But [TS]

00:39:52   but you know the actual random happiness of of individuals might not have been wildly different I don't know I don't know [TS]

00:39:57   if there's any or if you can even be done. [TS]

00:40:00   We kind of guesstimating about people's happiness in the past I don't I don't know if you could try to do an analysis [TS]

00:40:05   of letters or literature or anything like that but anyway I'm always I'm with the technology. Give me more. [TS]

00:40:13   Faster sooner. Because you're right it was fear what. There you go that's the end of follow up. [TS]

00:40:27   When did something you would have hated my US because we spent two solid days going through it [TS]

00:40:34   and take shots which is not one of my favorite things in the world today. [TS]

00:40:38   Just like just looking at old stuff and little knick knacks and treasures and old furniture and out maps and. [TS]

00:40:47   I love all that stuff and I know you do [TS]

00:40:48   and misunderstand under certain circumstances I could find that sort of activity enjoyable [TS]

00:40:54   but the question is where you going into the shops looking to purchase items to bring back to the Muslim of your life. [TS]

00:41:01   Yes I was shocked they were at museums or antique shops I mean there is a lot of just looking and isn't that wonderful. [TS]

00:41:08   Are you going to buy. [TS]

00:41:09   Thanks for coming down and you don't actually have to buy a few things I have been in shops many a time [TS]

00:41:15   and not bought a few things. It's remarkably easy to do. [TS]

00:41:19   Well you have when you have led a discipline [TS]

00:41:21   and if I say something lovely I'm like that would be lovely just to have this intent have near me just to have just [TS]

00:41:29   have as a burden. [TS]

00:41:34   Hell how many square feet is your house if you if you want to say that the main thing stopping me is the fact I have [TS]

00:41:42   absolutely no idea either [TS]

00:41:46   and I just feel like this is a thing that some people say requested a number what would it have meant they would have [TS]

00:41:51   meant nothing [TS]

00:41:52   but I felt like maybe the maybe the listeners could have some estimate of how much stuff could possibly fit in the [TS]

00:41:57   House that the that is that big I don't know probably fit. A lot of stuff in my house at the moment. [TS]

00:42:03   Yeah well you have fit a lot of stuff in your house at the moment. [TS]

00:42:07   You sent me that picture and I could see all the foot the antlers on her wall and things like that [TS]

00:42:14   and again I what I want to once again just be super clear I have no problem with someone having an image in their home [TS]

00:42:21   because your home should be a place that you like and I want you to have a place that you like crazy. [TS]

00:42:25   It's hard to like that when you're like making little jokes about it. [TS]

00:42:29   No You know if you ever get a tell you all will be forgiven if you ever actually agreed to come over for the day [TS]

00:42:40   and hang out I told you actually well it's just a question of getting up there [TS]

00:42:43   but we've already said we're going to go to the tick together and yes throw stuff out [TS]

00:42:47   and apparently you have plans to make a video for our exciting day to the tip. No I have no Someone suggested it. [TS]

00:42:53   OK OK I'm happy to make a video I think it would be nice. [TS]

00:42:58   Maybe we could do a podcast from the tip for people of love that people up to they're going to be found. [TS]

00:43:07   But OK But I guess I just want to be clear I do not I do not judge other people design aesthetic that just if you're [TS]

00:43:13   asking me questions so you can do the whole the whole thing with a picture where you put circles around all the things [TS]

00:43:19   that you thought were rubbish in the house because no but no [TS]

00:43:22   but the context of that was Boy look at this beautiful house that they ruined with all of these things I can say you [TS]

00:43:29   don't judge but you say they ruin to their house but but the presumption is like it's ruined for me. [TS]

00:43:36   Right I guess if I were to live here all of those circles are the things that I would just get rid of [TS]

00:43:41   but I I feel like I have like I'm a very easygoing live and let live kind of guy. [TS]

00:43:48   If you're doing something [TS]

00:43:49   and that thing makes you happy if it's decorating your house with stuff from all of your chips who's going to argue [TS]

00:43:54   with that if you're happy if you're you're happy it's your house that's also like that that's great. [TS]

00:44:00   I can and I'll visit your house and I Tell me about your stuff. [TS]

00:44:03   What's the story behind these antlers you know what's the deal with these little statues on the on the fireplace. [TS]

00:44:07   That's all great. It is a different question of if I were to buy your house and you left all that stuff there. [TS]

00:44:14   How much of it would I keep I don't think it's not criticizing to couch it in the terms you just couched in I still [TS]

00:44:19   think is criticizing. No it's people have people have a different people have difference of opinion. [TS]

00:44:25   And plus I don't go into people's homes [TS]

00:44:28   and start pointing at all the things going like mad to get rid of all the stuff right this is only come up on the five [TS]

00:44:32   cats because I think you asked about it or I don't I don't even remember how it came up [TS]

00:44:37   but I this is a topic of discussion here but I don't go into someone's house [TS]

00:44:40   and start down voting all of their personal possessions. That's not the way it works. [TS]

00:44:46   What would you come to an antique shop. Do you ever go into men take shops. [TS]

00:44:50   Yeah yeah I like them little museums you can treat them like little museums [TS]

00:44:55   but I mean I've done a couple of road trips across America and I mean it's always just just quirky weird local shops [TS]

00:45:03   or you know and stuff like that I have no problem going and visiting that stuff [TS]

00:45:06   and taking a look around I think it's super interesting [TS]

00:45:08   but I'm just I'm the guy in the store with no intention to actually purchase anything have you ever bought something [TS]

00:45:13   crazy like some weird object even if you regret it afterwards. [TS]

00:45:17   And any more context for this I quit What do you mean like Have you ever bought what you would describe as a knick [TS]

00:45:24   knack or a novelty item or an old you know I mean I guess I was a you know I was a kid [TS]

00:45:31   and did stuff like that you know we have stuff that just totally worthless you know [TS]

00:45:34   but you're also a kid like you don't know anything as a kid [TS]

00:45:38   but I think in my in my adult life I try to look around the room that I'm in. [TS]

00:45:48   Have you ever bought something is and I doubt that to borrow a term from last time you regretted. [TS]

00:45:54   Have you ever made a bad purchase. [TS]

00:45:56   Now whenever I can I can feel like there's any any regret that I've had over purchase. [TS]

00:46:00   Really you've never been to the purchase is going to quickly factor to our definition of grand like the data are [TS]

00:46:10   available at the time and yet so it's like I have bought stuff that doesn't work out [TS]

00:46:15   but I don't own filled with regret and sit down and feel all sad about it well that didn't work [TS]

00:46:20   and now I'm going to get rid of this thing because it doesn't work. Yeah. When looking around. [TS]

00:46:27   It's because like this bothers you and I think you always know more than you are bothered by my hunting [TS]

00:46:35   and pecking typing that's just a surprise mixed with disappointment I guess I just feel like maybe I'm missing out on [TS]

00:46:42   some of the texture of life. I am very happy with my life pretty well as long as you know happiness good for you. [TS]

00:46:51   Yeah see that's exactly it and let live. [TS]

00:46:54   I'm a very happy guy you're a very happy guy I presume we're both very happy guys. [TS]

00:46:59   If for some crazy reason we were renting a house together we would then have to have some disagreement over how that [TS]

00:47:05   house a protector a man actually whether that be really that you couldn't you can decorate your room the way you want [TS]

00:47:10   and all the common areas are decorated the way I want I think that was that that would settle it. [TS]

00:47:15   You sound you sound like a wife. Are you ready for Freddie's Papercuts. [TS]

00:47:20   My and my ever the digital radio thing was in your paper less expense. [TS]

00:47:28   Our expanding papercut that they will follow up now it's going to be a breakaway five you know. [TS]

00:47:41   So here is here is my paper cut this week. [TS]

00:47:46   Yeah it is when you follow someone on Twitter and they have whatever software [TS]

00:47:52   or gimmicks that people have to know that you've done this they then contact you [TS]

00:47:57   and confront you about why you once followed them. Really. Have you had this happen to you. Yes How do you do that. [TS]

00:48:08   I complained about on the program if you can. [TS]

00:48:14   Well I don't know if it depends on the reason I had followed them and there are many reasons on to put it on file. [TS]

00:48:22   I know and it's not that sometimes it's not personal sometimes it's just managing certain things [TS]

00:48:27   and I mean one of the ones I've been followed recently was simply a case of just management I was unfollowing them from [TS]

00:48:32   one account but I still follow them from a different account and I just didn't want them clogging multiple strains [TS]

00:48:38   but you know sometimes you can follow someone because they're a bit too a bit too active and they're crowding out. [TS]

00:48:45   Try to get your Twitter stream and [TS]

00:48:47   but anyway I think I don't think one should be confronted about this is the Twitter versus Facebook topic [TS]

00:48:54   and I the reason I love Twitter is because it is not Facebook. [TS]

00:48:59   It doesn't come with any of the or at least I don't think it should but apparently some people do [TS]

00:49:04   and doesn't come with the kind of social obligations that Facebook does. [TS]

00:49:10   If you make that one hundred to none of this expectations that you people you know in real life [TS]

00:49:16   or your work colleagues or everybody uses you on Facebook. [TS]

00:49:19   Whereas with Twitter it's you're following people who you think are interesting to follow for whatever reason [TS]

00:49:26   but it's not it's not a list of your friends on Twitter. That's that's one of the reasons why I really like it. [TS]

00:49:34   So I pick up be at be pretty baffled if I unfiled someone and they got mad about it a bit like I'm mad if you unfairly. [TS]

00:49:44   Yeah [TS]

00:49:45   but here's one of the also the great things about Twitter is that for those kinds of relationships I could just mute [TS]

00:49:51   you on Twitter as well if I want to make it look like I was following you [TS]

00:49:54   and then not actually hypothetically hypothetically I could. So I would not be upset if you unfollowed me. [TS]

00:50:03   I know I know it would be personal. [TS]

00:50:05   Yeah that's and robots don't have feelings for that is that is the essence of Twitter [TS]

00:50:12   and I think people on Twitter I think have more people I don't know who I follow on Twitter than people I do know that [TS]

00:50:17   I follow on Twitter [TS]

00:50:19   and there's no way I would make Twitter just a list of of my friends that is ruined the whole the whole use of it [TS]

00:50:25   that's not that's not what it's for so if I get a perfect refuge notice whatever unfollowed someone [TS]

00:50:32   and start talking to me about it it's not Facebook you know go go cry about this on Facebook [TS]

00:50:38   but not here this is not this is not what this thing is for a plane crash that you're on a plane crash going I [TS]

00:50:46   deliberately have to post this so it's easy if you do you honestly have to talk about plane crash live. [TS]

00:50:53   Well I just wanna keep going so I was actually going to dove into the vote of plane crashes [TS]

00:50:59   and now it doesn't have to be a weekly thing. But I want to tell you about the worst plane crash ever to know about it. [TS]

00:51:11   I do you know what the worst plane crash ever was I have no idea now. [TS]

00:51:15   Really this is where you're super into a topic and you over assume other people's knowledge [TS]

00:51:21   and I wouldn't have the slightest idea I just assume this is like one everybody knows I don't think I could name a [TS]

00:51:28   single plane crash in an identifying way you know where people say oh flight a one six five [TS]

00:51:38   and I can't do that for a single plane crash. [TS]

00:51:40   Well if you say the word tenor reef to any plane crash [TS]

00:51:45   and just began talking about straight away I have never heard of this. Well this was the worst plane crash ever. [TS]

00:51:54   Might as well you might as well I mean you can cap this just send me the audience by personal pleasure. [TS]

00:52:00   Listening pleasure Blekko plane crashes it's a terrible thing. [TS]

00:52:04   And five hundred eighty three people died which is the most in a single plane crash [TS]

00:52:09   but it was two it was two seven four seven to hit each other on the runway [TS]

00:52:13   and you'd actually quite like it because it was one of these perfect storms of things going wrong [TS]

00:52:19   but it was a lot of it was also to do with psychology [TS]

00:52:23   and human interaction because basically this guy flying a plane at the end of a at the end of the runway was quite [TS]

00:52:30   misty. [TS]

00:52:31   He misheard some communication and he thought he was clear to take off and he was impatient [TS]

00:52:37   and wanted to take off because he wanted to get home. Is light and his second officer. [TS]

00:52:45   He's in theory it was probably the first officer actually but his his inferior knew he was doing the wrong thing [TS]

00:52:52   but was too shy almost. He was he didn't he didn't say he was right. You know he didn't speak up. [TS]

00:53:00   Anyway you can guess the rest the plane went down the runway through the mist [TS]

00:53:05   and there was another Pan Am plane crossing the runway at the time and the plane took off and the two collided. [TS]

00:53:12   All this devastation happened not only is interesting because it's the worst plane crash [TS]

00:53:18   but it's interesting because of some of the factors especially the human factor side of things [TS]

00:53:22   and this was the crash that really really started getting people interested in human factors [TS]

00:53:26   and the psychology of the cockpit. [TS]

00:53:29   If it's a huge disaster almost always a human cost there are lots of factors [TS]

00:53:33   but if you're going to put the blame on one human you'd put it on the pilot of this Carol implying [TS]

00:53:39   and the thing that was interesting was that he was like the chief flight instructor [TS]

00:53:42   and like the top dog parlor of the how airline [TS]

00:53:46   and had recently been in like in their advertising campaign as a face of the airline and [TS]

00:53:51   when the crash happened the first thing all the airline executives said was you know we've got to get Jacob on the [TS]

00:53:57   phone and he's going to head the investigation. What I realized that he was the pilot that had caused the crash. [TS]

00:54:04   So anyway interest interest interesting one plane crash going to look it up [TS]

00:54:09   and like I always say every plane crash has lots of interesting little stories and bits of trivia [TS]

00:54:14   and one of my favorites is this particular plane the Pan Am plane that kind of was the sitting duck that got hit by the [TS]

00:54:22   can down the runway was also the first ever seven four seven to fly a commercial flight [TS]

00:54:28   and it was the first of a seven for seven to be hijacked [TS]

00:54:32   and then was the one of the participants in the worst air disaster still that has ever happened to the airplane. [TS]

00:54:41   That's a curious claim. Thank There we go you can just semi that already if it doesn't make the final cut. [TS]

00:54:49   If the worst plane crash disaster ever doesn't make it nothing from this point on. [TS]

00:54:55   This episode of hello internet has been brought to you by Harries dot com And for those of you who don't know what [TS]

00:54:59   Harry's is it's basically an online way to take care of you sort of shaving and raise and you can buy razors [TS]

00:55:06   and you can buy the replacement planes. [TS]

00:55:08   Now the business was born out of a personal experience one of the founders went along to what he calls a drug store [TS]

00:55:14   but I guess what I would call the pharmacy or chemist to buy replacement blades for his razor [TS]

00:55:19   and he had to wait for ages while they unlocked the case and then paid a fortune for the blades [TS]

00:55:24   and he basically thought this could be a better way than this. So they started this Web site. [TS]

00:55:29   Harries dot com where you buy razors and then you get the replacement blades like everyone does [TS]

00:55:35   but I had a much fairer price than what you get from some of the more famous companies [TS]

00:55:40   and they are probably wondering why I'm doing this out of not gray [TS]

00:55:43   and that's because I've actually been sent one of the kits from Harry's to use so I can tell you about it. [TS]

00:55:48   I've got it here in my hand that's what it sounds like you have to go to the Web site to see what it looks like I was [TS]

00:55:54   actually really impressed by the whole thing it comes in a really sort of impressive looking box. [TS]

00:56:00   It's really classy and I'll put it up on the razor. [TS]

00:56:04   So it's really nice to when I've got this nice SUV a metal handle it. [TS]

00:56:08   It feels expensive although it's not [TS]

00:56:10   and it looks expensive it's quite a classy looking razor It also comes with shaving cream [TS]

00:56:15   and a first batch of blades which is pretty important. [TS]

00:56:18   I gave it a test run in the bathroom and I was really impressed with the shave as well nice [TS]

00:56:22   and smooth everything you'd want from a really top notch razor [TS]

00:56:26   but the key thing here is the ability to order new blades at a fair price that got really good blades made in Germany [TS]

00:56:32   and you can order them when you like and it won't cost you an arm and a leg. [TS]

00:56:36   They're not following that printer ink a business model of getting you on board to start with [TS]

00:56:41   and then ripping you off later. They really fair if you don't believe me again have a look at the website. [TS]

00:56:45   Harries dot com I think one of the things I like best I was sort of the look of the product the font in the text. [TS]

00:56:51   It's all kind of really classy. I want the colors and. [TS]

00:56:55   One that got bit of a sense of humor if you look closely [TS]

00:56:57   and read what's written on some of the products as well this kind of a dry wit. [TS]

00:57:01   I think I've done well I think I've really got the tone of the product right. [TS]

00:57:04   Only fifteen dollars gets you the starting can't which seems like a really good price to me. [TS]

00:57:10   And besides being something you could buy say so which is probably what I'd do the other thing that did occur to me [TS]

00:57:15   when it arrived was this would make a really good gift for kind of like you dad or your brother or boyfriend [TS]

00:57:21   or something like that it sort of looks like an expensive present although it doesn't cost a fortune so go on have a [TS]

00:57:28   look at the website [TS]

00:57:29   and you see why name it so if you want to check it out go to Harry's dot com Now I should say at the moment they're [TS]

00:57:35   only delivering to the U.S. and Canada I was a bit lucky they sent one to me here in the U.K. [TS]

00:57:40   And I think they do want to get international shipping happening at some stage but they haven't done that yet. [TS]

00:57:45   Go to Harry's dot com and enter the promo code when you're checking out. [TS]

00:57:50   Now if you do that you get five dollars off your first order which is good for you [TS]

00:57:55   and now I know that you came to the Web site from a podcast which is good for us. Harry's done. [TS]

00:58:00   A calm promo card as in how the Internet and thanks again to them for supporting. Hello Internet in the podcast. [TS]

00:58:07   Back to the show. Calls we've waffled on tonight. Every week for like an hour almost. [TS]

00:58:15   Well I guess I guess what this is is the hello internet season two opening extravaganza. Excellent marketing. [TS]

00:58:26   I love to learn from you. It's not lawful it is an amazing amount of content. [TS]

00:58:32   This could be like feature length episode. Yeah we were going to talk about the news. [TS]

00:58:38   Yes there's a big topic and this is going to be difficult because you are or you are a consumer of news [TS]

00:58:46   but I worked in news for a very long time. Yes. [TS]

00:58:49   Which really makes me worry that I could be very very boring here boring. I will edit you out as much as is necessary. [TS]

00:59:02   This is what happened that we had alluded to talking about at some point in season one [TS]

00:59:07   and know that I will talk about in season two [TS]

00:59:09   but I guess the focus for this discussion is a little bit like the news call and why is it so awful. Question mark. [TS]

00:59:19   That's that's kind of the headline in my mind of the discussion to have around this particular topic because the news [TS]

00:59:26   is such a big all encompassing thing. [TS]

00:59:29   I think that I want to set the guidelines that I want to talk mostly about sort of the big newspapers and the big T.V. [TS]

00:59:39   News channels as the focus of this because in this modern Internet world there's this very interesting blurring [TS]

00:59:47   spectrum of what is the news with various Web sites and how big things need to be. [TS]

00:59:52   So I kind of want to talk mostly about the major Web sites and the major T.V. Channels. [TS]

00:59:57   When we're when we're discussing the news today and like. They say the major websites rather than newspapers. [TS]

01:00:02   Did I say that I meant to say newspapers but I think you just said he's papers Yeah [TS]

01:00:06   but I guess the thing is in my mind I interact with all the newspapers in their Internet form [TS]

01:00:12   and of course I'm not going to go the newspaper and like pull out the big sheet [TS]

01:00:16   and then have to wash my hands later I remember when a little while back I think you [TS]

01:00:21   and I were both in a newspaper article in the paper and it wasn't in the online version and I called you up [TS]

01:00:27   and so if you say in this article that were in your online Arsenal come buy the paper because it's in there [TS]

01:00:34   and oh my goodness it was like it was like I asked you to rub your hands [TS]

01:00:38   and don't do something you want I'm not going to touch a newspaper you were like notified No I was. [TS]

01:00:45   OK so some newspaper had done a big feature on people making a living on You Tube as I remember correctly you were in [TS]

01:00:51   the article but I don't think I was mentioned but you but we want to talk about it anyway. [TS]

01:00:55   OK You wanted me to to look at it [TS]

01:00:57   and I guess I was just disbelieving that you couldn't just send me a link that this was only available on a piece of [TS]

01:01:03   paper in a store somewhere. [TS]

01:01:05   Hence I I don't know if I've ever bought a newspaper before then that was an explicitly for a project in school back in [TS]

01:01:16   high school when they say oh yeah you know you have to use a newspaper to do whatever [TS]

01:01:21   and I don't think I had purchased a newspaper since that So it was a big event for me and I had to go in [TS]

01:01:26   and give the give the guy some money for some paper. [TS]

01:01:29   And yes that was the first time I touched a newspaper in probably ten years. Well if you're a newspaper Yeah. [TS]

01:01:37   So I'm guessing that the overall tone you're going to have towards the big newspapers and the big T.V. [TS]

01:01:45   Networks is not going to be a loving. Yeah I think that's fair. [TS]

01:01:51   I can think about this from from from a couple points which is for most people reading the news. [TS]

01:02:00   You are probably not involved with basically every news story you ever read across your entire life that the news is [TS]

01:02:10   stuff that's happening to other people or in other places. [TS]

01:02:15   But if you ever are in the position where you are directly involved with something that ends up in the news that can be [TS]

01:02:24   a rather eye opening experience to see oh I was here or I was involved in this [TS]

01:02:30   or maybe the newspaper is talking about the company that I work with and I'm familiar with whatever they're discussing. [TS]

01:02:36   And I would say that that is often just a very surprising experience to see how stuff that you know about first hand is [TS]

01:02:46   then communicated to a wide audience. Yeah very often it is communicated in a in a way that are just wildly inaccurate. [TS]

01:02:57   And I've seen people discussing this online to say how that can be very very surprising. [TS]

01:03:04   And that's not something that happens to most people because again most of the time the news is about something else.. [TS]

01:03:09   And so when you when you read newspaper stories or you see something on T.V. [TS]

01:03:14   You generally just kind of go with it [TS]

01:03:16   or you have no reason to doubt it really you know it's in the newspaper it's on the T.V. [TS]

01:03:20   You assume like oh yeah you know maybe they left out the details but that's basically the story. [TS]

01:03:25   But if you're ever involved in something you can quickly see how that is that is not the case that that it is often [TS]

01:03:33   just very different than what you expect. Yes I mean that's that's true for life in general as well but yeah yeah. [TS]

01:03:40   OK And then the second thing is from from my perspective having to research stuff. [TS]

01:03:47   So I you know I don't make a big point but you try to research my videos as well as I can. [TS]

01:03:52   And over the first year of doing this I very rapidly came to the conclusion that newspapers were basic. [TS]

01:04:00   Just worthless as as resources to rely upon because it usually factual claims that were made. [TS]

01:04:11   If I try to follow up it was just either impossible to follow up or it was just wrong or wildly misleading [TS]

01:04:20   and that's also a very disappointing kind of thing to come across because you think this is the newspaper this is the [TS]

01:04:28   idea of the newspaper. [TS]

01:04:30   Just like if you have school that is maybe different from the reality of the situation you know maybe you know if we [TS]

01:04:38   talk about what the news is actually doing in presenting an accurate view of the world to news consumers is not what [TS]

01:04:49   it's doing it's actually accomplishing something else. So no I'm not yet. [TS]

01:05:00   As a guy who spent many many years writing those stories and then making those T.V. Reports later. [TS]

01:05:07   Yes so I will say nothing because I'm now i think i'm now that fear we have all the teachers have felt listening to the [TS]

01:05:14   previews the pod cast as you do a demolition job on my profession. [TS]

01:05:20   OK I'm going to I'm going to say something [TS]

01:05:22   and I think this is this is going to be impossible for this next sentence to not sound sarcastic so I just want you [TS]

01:05:28   and the Internet to be aware that I mean it genuinely thank you Brady are very special. [TS]

01:05:34   I think since you are much better than probably many say most of your former colleagues you know I don't know any of [TS]

01:05:47   these individuals in particular [TS]

01:05:49   but you know you are you are someone who has ended up in a situation where in some strange way you are almost like a [TS]

01:05:56   one person tiny science news channel of yourself. [TS]

01:06:00   And you know you go out and you do interviews and then you edit those interviews [TS]

01:06:03   and you have a lot of control over how things are portrayed [TS]

01:06:07   and I think the kind of person who ends up in that situation is obviously maybe a little bit different than most of the [TS]

01:06:17   other news reporters I don't know what you think about that. [TS]

01:06:21   Well that I mean that's a very special that's very kind of you to say and I appreciate it [TS]

01:06:24   and I guess in the sense that I'm a journalist now then that's a bit different [TS]

01:06:29   and it's sort of comparing apples with oranges. [TS]

01:06:31   Yeah I think the side of me that is about to be offended is the side of me that worked for Rupert Murdoch newspaper for [TS]

01:06:37   seven years [TS]

01:06:38   and then worked for the baby safe for seven years I think that's the side of me that's about to get a shellacking. [TS]

01:06:44   Well actually so you know here's the thing. [TS]

01:06:46   Even to this is again just as I was saying that if I was writing this is an article I know I would go back [TS]

01:06:51   and revise the previous thing that I said about the reporters themselves because I actually think I was thinking a lot [TS]

01:06:58   about this because I've I've had some some interactions with reporters who tried to get in touch with me to do stories [TS]

01:07:07   and or a couple things that have been written about me in the newspapers [TS]

01:07:10   and it out there that has generally been a negative experience for me with that [TS]

01:07:15   and it's something I try to think about and say OK I don't. [TS]

01:07:20   So I think people are people are people just sort of across the board. [TS]

01:07:26   In general I don't like answers like this say oh let's say I think the news is terrible. [TS]

01:07:33   I think a lazy answer but a very reflective answer for people to say something like Oh [TS]

01:07:39   but that's because just the reporters are terrible reporters. [TS]

01:07:42   I don't I don't think that's a good answer to the kind of question about maybe why isn't the news super accurate. [TS]

01:07:51   And I like to try to think in terms of systems and so my guess is that. [TS]

01:08:00   What's going on inside of newspapers [TS]

01:08:02   and what's going on inside of newsrooms is that the system that is set up to generate [TS]

01:08:09   and produce the news puts an enormous amount of constraints on the reporters [TS]

01:08:16   and the writers that makes it difficult for them to maybe necessarily produce the best pieces that they possibly can. [TS]

01:08:25   So you know you know I'll ask you. [TS]

01:08:27   I've never worked in a newsroom [TS]

01:08:28   but I'm I'm going to guess for example that there is just an enormous amount of pressure to produce lots of articles [TS]

01:08:35   and you are measured and graded by the number of articles you're not necessarily measured [TS]

01:08:42   and graded by the quality of those articles is that is that the case. [TS]

01:08:46   Yeah I mean as long as they're not as long as they're not wrong and cause problems for the newspaper. [TS]

01:08:51   Yes you are required to produce you can quote to have higher up. [TS]

01:08:57   But also you're required to have Apple in most cases every day. And that's yes that is a constraint in place. [TS]

01:09:05   It's an issue you could call an artificial constraint that is you know created by the need to have newspapers every day [TS]

01:09:12   and sell advertising and make money and fame based and cite the curiosity of the public [TS]

01:09:18   but news isn't news if you don't do it quickly every day. [TS]

01:09:23   It then becomes history [TS]

01:09:25   and then of course history papers the cold newspapers so that constraint that it is done quickly [TS]

01:09:31   and all of the problems that come with the need to do it quickly including accuracy and things like that. [TS]

01:09:39   But their hope is to necessary evil [TS]

01:09:42   and yes you cannot then rely on as a you know a source in fifty years time for a seat to be grave. [TS]

01:09:50   But then I started with documents in a way and if if every article was triple checked to the nth degree. [TS]

01:10:00   And you waited for all the facts to come to light before you wrote your article. [TS]

01:10:03   It wouldn't be news anymore and you could say and I know there are people who don't care much for news [TS]

01:10:09   and will say well fine let's wait a few months until all the facts [TS]

01:10:12   and let's not report on this Malaysia plane crash until we know what happened. [TS]

01:10:17   Let's not have all this wild speculation and that's fair enough. [TS]

01:10:20   Wild speculation is called wild speculation for a reason [TS]

01:10:24   but if you don't have news if you don't have day to day accountability you have a lot of other problems in society as [TS]

01:10:30   well to do with the way your government to do with things that are happening you don't know about. [TS]

01:10:36   So I think these people are talking about pluses [TS]

01:10:40   and minuses of everything the pluses of news shouldn't be discarded because of some of the minuses that you've already [TS]

01:10:47   touched upon and more no doubt touch upon again. [TS]

01:10:51   Let's not forget that news has to be quick and responsive [TS]

01:10:54   and it day to day thing because that's how people are held accountable [TS]

01:10:59   and how society is kept informed of what is going on elsewhere in society. [TS]

01:11:04   Otherwise we might just live in our own little silos and not know anything. [TS]

01:11:09   They go Anyway rant over making good points which I don't know that [TS]

01:11:13   but that's not a rant like this is this is why I think it's an interesting conversation to have with someone who was on [TS]

01:11:18   the inside. [TS]

01:11:19   I'm I'm just a person on the outside sort of frowning at the newspaper [TS]

01:11:23   and you know it's I want to hear what you have to say about you know your perspective from having actually worked about [TS]

01:11:29   it work on it on the inside. [TS]

01:11:31   Let me say one other thing [TS]

01:11:33   and I'll say a negative thing because that was so kind of a positive actually stick vision of news [TS]

01:11:39   and you don't have to have been a journalist to express those thoughts that I just expressed [TS]

01:11:44   and that's kind of more the fourth estate you know I taught you I think the one thing that I think you're a bit too [TS]

01:11:52   kind to journalists as well [TS]

01:11:53   when you sort of say that they are just a product of the machine they work in which they are now. [TS]

01:12:00   You know they have to get paid and don't want to get sacked. [TS]

01:12:03   But journalists also most journalists who become journalists have a fair degree of ego [TS]

01:12:08   and say they want to have stories in the paper all the time. [TS]

01:12:12   They want to have their byline on stories or they want to have their face on T.V. [TS]

01:12:15   As a reporter and that is another big driving force that's going on. [TS]

01:12:20   So while that while they have got bosses who are saying say that they used to say that based [TS]

01:12:25   and they also have their own impulses which is saying get the story get get get enough of the story [TS]

01:12:32   or get the best possible story that will get me on to page one or get me the lead story on the news [TS]

01:12:37   when there is a there is a corrupting force is a force where you know you may not you find out just enough to get your [TS]

01:12:45   story in the paper or you find out what you need to know the shots you need to get your story on the T.V. [TS]

01:12:51   That is a negative side of of journalism. Yeah yeah that humans there are humans who you know who want glory. [TS]

01:13:02   Yes that's true. [TS]

01:13:03   I mean that's I guess that is also in all fields that as a human issue humans want glory I guess as good as a general [TS]

01:13:10   statement. I guess you know it. [TS]

01:13:16   When you put it this way this is a huge topic this is a huge topic isn't no you get no I mean it's all one reason [TS]

01:13:24   sanguine. Yeah it's it's a juiced up I guess. [TS]

01:13:30   Let me go to Michael point here one of the things that I think about [TS]

01:13:35   when I think about the news source like like until the end [TS]

01:13:38   and with newspapers it's the suspicion of noticing that they like the phenomenon of twenty four hour news channels [TS]

01:13:46   or so that they really visit there's always twenty four hours worth of news in a day [TS]

01:13:50   or that newspapers are always sort of about the same size [TS]

01:13:54   and I think it's like Well surely if we're if we want to talk about. [TS]

01:14:00   The things that are important or the things that humans should be informed about in their society. [TS]

01:14:06   There's not an equal amount of that every day it would be a remarkable coincidence if the exact number of important [TS]

01:14:14   things happened every single day. [TS]

01:14:17   And so since that isn't the case you have to know that that a lot of the stuff that's in on T.V. [TS]

01:14:25   News or that is in the newspaper is not necessarily there because it's important it's there to fill space. [TS]

01:14:34   I came across this article by a blogger I've been a guy really a guy I've been following for years called Paul Graham. [TS]

01:14:41   He writes and some very good essays He's a venture capitalist out of California but he used to do some other things. [TS]

01:14:47   And he he talked about how I think it was he worked in a newsroom at one point [TS]

01:14:53   and was discussing the number of press releases that come in from companies that then just get immediately re written [TS]

01:15:02   as stories and I'll see if I can if I can find a link to his specific article. [TS]

01:15:07   Yeah but he was talking about the kind of kind of news article where once you tune into it you can't unsee it. [TS]

01:15:14   And he said his his example was talking about an article a newspaper that'll be something like. [TS]

01:15:20   Men's business suits are back into fashion in the office and you know some some survey about how more [TS]

01:15:26   and more companies are deciding that the casual look is over and we're going to do more business suits now [TS]

01:15:30   and you know some graph about sales of business suits that were always based on a survey of someone's commission. [TS]

01:15:35   Yeah that's exactly it you know some some survey about this or that [TS]

01:15:39   and how soon do you think of that as a kind of article in a minute [TS]

01:15:47   and he discusses how these kinds of things are coming in to wherever he worked as a newspaper just an enormous amount [TS]

01:15:53   of the time and they just get kind of slightly modified and sent into the newspaper as though they're. [TS]

01:16:00   I reported stories [TS]

01:16:01   but they're basically something that the association of business suit manufacturers has just handed to the newspapers [TS]

01:16:08   and hopes that they that they run easy. [TS]

01:16:12   Yeah and and also even when you just talk about like the number like that like what should should people know. [TS]

01:16:22   I almost think that the newspapers and T.V. [TS]

01:16:24   News are are more they're more reflection of what do various interests want people to be told as as opposed to an [TS]

01:16:36   accurate reflection of what should people know [TS]

01:16:40   and I think that the example of press releases is just a relatively small example of that. [TS]

01:16:45   But you can it's not hard to like scale this up to governmental levels of like you know what. [TS]

01:16:50   What particular stories do particular interest one run [TS]

01:16:55   but is that something that you came across much in your work like the press release issue. [TS]

01:17:00   It sounds like you know what I mean you know when there was two fax machines you just have piles [TS]

01:17:05   and piles of press releases coming in all the time. [TS]

01:17:09   Yeah the press release thing is an age old problem [TS]

01:17:12   and journalists do have again the ego of the journalist has a natural revulsion to doing things that come from press [TS]

01:17:19   releases. [TS]

01:17:20   It's partly a pride and it's partly a well I don't want to be spoon fed attitude there is a natural revulsion to it [TS]

01:17:28   but then there's a whole industry that has blossomed around getting around that problem. [TS]

01:17:34   Here are officers who are so skilled at writing press releases that they might be able to get around that [TS]

01:17:39   or they'll contact the journalist directly and say I've got a story for you [TS]

01:17:43   and coach it in such a way that the generals thinks they're doing something they're not doing I mean this is this is a [TS]

01:17:49   constant tension in news press release versus this is News and of course [TS]

01:17:54   when you're under pressure to find a story you haven't got a good story that the writer of this is you know is that. [TS]

01:18:00   Get out of jail free card. [TS]

01:18:01   Yeah that's what I mean by that the systematic pressure you know you no one can blame a reporter for doing that if they [TS]

01:18:07   have deadlines to meet that their job depends on it and it isn't like that. That why the press releases work. [TS]

01:18:13   They're feeding into this system as well and the newspaper wants a certain amount of material. [TS]

01:18:17   Yeah so the person is kind of caught in between those forces [TS]

01:18:22   and it becomes it becomes a more economical way to fill a newspaper [TS]

01:18:26   and to feel you know say you don't need as many stuff because you know having to send them all I have to go [TS]

01:18:31   and make dates [TS]

01:18:32   or in a car park if that is sitting at their desk rehashing a really nice real reporting to go a long time that is a [TS]

01:18:39   constant tension I will say this at the end [TS]

01:18:41   and I'll say this now I don't know if you've read Flat Earth News by Nick Davies And yes I mean how this everything [TS]

01:18:49   we've talked about so far [TS]

01:18:50   and we'll talk about if people find this even a little bit interesting there is a book I should rate which is excellent [TS]

01:18:56   about this and this. [TS]

01:18:57   He talks about churnalism this chaining out this need to churn out stuff [TS]

01:19:03   and the pressures that creates on the journalist and the [TS]

01:19:06   and the press release exploits this channel istic culture so I mean what you're saying rings very true [TS]

01:19:15   and it gets manipulated and you can spot these press release stories if you know you're looking for. [TS]

01:19:21   Yeah yeah yeah that's just that's just part of the problem and one of the things that. [TS]

01:19:29   When I hear people defending the news as an industry going to talk about you know in informing people [TS]

01:19:36   but I don't know I don't know how to. Let me put it this way. [TS]

01:19:44   Just like once you know about the existence of press releases you can see this kind of thing more easily in newspapers [TS]

01:19:51   that you might read or or T.V. Shows or T.V. News that you watch. [TS]

01:19:55   I think there's a there's a similar kind of thing which again I assume that this comes from the. Time pressure. [TS]

01:20:00   I mean I don't I don't think it's necessarily laziness on the part of the reporters. [TS]

01:20:04   But and I know this is particularly when I go back to America and I watch American T.V. [TS]

01:20:10   News which has got to be just some of the most appalling news in the whole world. [TS]

01:20:15   Everything is presented as what is happening right now. [TS]

01:20:22   So the news is discussing like an event that is occurring at this moment [TS]

01:20:28   and I always think I'll be watching these like news clips [TS]

01:20:32   and I think OK I understand this is what's happening in politics at the moment [TS]

01:20:37   or this is a particular problem you know elsewhere [TS]

01:20:41   but nobody can understand this problem in a meaningful way unless we are through stand how did we get here. [TS]

01:20:49   Like there's something happened before this problem that was the setup to this problem. [TS]

01:20:55   And I'm always really aware on particularly American T.V. [TS]

01:20:58   News there's just no history there's there's never any context. [TS]

01:21:04   I mean you've got to have a this is where you have a problem of knowledge like like how much background can you [TS]

01:21:11   possibly put in and then for someone who's just coming into the story for the first time. [TS]

01:21:17   You could probably talk to them for half an hour about everything that's come before this point. [TS]

01:21:21   But for someone who's watches the news every night this is just the next chapter of the story. [TS]

01:21:26   You don't read the previous nineteen chapters of a book every time you go to bed you read the chapter you're up to now. [TS]

01:21:32   Yeah and I I and I understand what you're saying there and I can go with that [TS]

01:21:37   but I would say that the majority of stuff that I see is presented in a in a totally context less void of we're going [TS]

01:21:45   to talk about this this problem this event that is happening but there is no future and there is no past [TS]

01:21:54   and we're just talking about the thing that is happening right now and I think that kind. [TS]

01:22:00   If thing leads to a falsely informed citizenry. [TS]

01:22:05   Oh you're you're aware of stuff that is sort of going on right now [TS]

01:22:11   but you don't have any kind of framework to understand it in a in a meaningful way. [TS]

01:22:17   This goes back to to my system's way of thinking is like so many of the things that are being discussed in the news. [TS]

01:22:29   They are attention grabbing or like they make you really angry and [TS]

01:22:33   but they're just the bottom layer of something where the next layer up is the thing that really matters [TS]

01:22:42   and so you know some someday will do an episode where we talk about politics in particular [TS]

01:22:47   but I think this is a great example of voting I should say in particular. [TS]

01:22:52   As an example in America you will hear all of these these events [TS]

01:22:56   and the stories about say corruption with particular politicians [TS]

01:23:00   or a huge divide in the Congress over a particular bill or whatever it is. [TS]

01:23:05   And a lot of those things seem to come down the way the news presents them as stories about particular people. [TS]

01:23:12   But there are there are systemic answers as to why they say is Congress more divided now than it has ever been before. [TS]

01:23:21   There is a totally reasonable answer. [TS]

01:23:24   One level up to that question there are structural changes that have happened to the voting system that have made that [TS]

01:23:31   different. But that level never gets talked about. [TS]

01:23:34   You know it's always just like let's look at this guy who is yelling about this one thing in this other guy who's [TS]

01:23:38   yelling about some other thing and there's no history about how did those guys get there. [TS]

01:23:41   You know or why why does the system now encourage much more partisanship than it ever did before. [TS]

01:23:46   So I just think that if the the news is informing you of these particular of events [TS]

01:23:52   but it's it's almost like like it's like junk food. It feels like oh I'm being informed. [TS]

01:23:57   I know what's going on right now. But but it's not. [TS]

01:24:01   It's not a harder level of communication but a more valuable level of communication. [TS]

01:24:06   You can't it's very hard to give people the amount of information you want to give them I mean. [TS]

01:24:13   OK you make five minute videos that have lots of information in them. [TS]

01:24:18   But let let's let's say a few things about your five minute videos that they take a long time to make their research [TS]

01:24:28   for wakes. [TS]

01:24:30   They have a lot of information in them spoken very quickly that you could never give to just you could never put on the [TS]

01:24:37   news because people can't absorb that while they're eating a T.V. [TS]

01:24:40   Dinner off their lap at the same time that that much density of information you want to you have this desire to give [TS]

01:24:48   people all this information that you cannot give them in the finite amount of space in which they are willing to absorb [TS]

01:24:55   the information and then you're left with a choice. Do people want to watch Billy punch Fred in the face. [TS]

01:25:05   Which is which is interesting to look at. What do they want. [TS]

01:25:08   Twenty minutes about all the history of Billy and Freddy you know since they were born [TS]

01:25:13   and all the problems they've had [TS]

01:25:15   and you know of course if I said to you I've got I've got two videos here one's eight seconds of someone punching [TS]

01:25:21   someone in the face. Them One is a twenty minute spoken word piece about why people don't get along with my punch. [TS]

01:25:29   I think even you would watch the punch in the face. [TS]

01:25:32   Well yeah I think your longer video should have the punch at the end [TS]

01:25:35   but I guess that the conflict for makeup here comes from. I totally agree but I would not disagree. [TS]

01:25:40   And yeah I know and I'm saying pretty obvious stuff. [TS]

01:25:42   Yeah I know but but it's valuable to bring up [TS]

01:25:45   and so I guess the tension for me is what I get irritated by is the kind of exalted position that news has for itself [TS]

01:25:55   in society. Right and what we think of it versus what is it actually. [TS]

01:26:00   He doing this how this how the fourth estate holding politicians to account stuff I was spouting I didn't want to say [TS]

01:26:06   it better because of that. Let's get into it. [TS]

01:26:08   Yeah [TS]

01:26:09   but I I it's like I wouldn't mind the news so much if we could be more straightforward about what it is it's much more [TS]

01:26:19   like event entertainment or informational entertainment but [TS]

01:26:25   but this whole like oh the news all of the government of you count and we you know we inform the city [TS]

01:26:30   and I have just I just don't think that's what it's actually doing that's what it claims it does [TS]

01:26:37   but that that is not really the case of one of them not even that they don't want to like I'm the first to tell us that [TS]

01:26:44   there wouldn't necessarily be a market for that. [TS]

01:26:47   So I acknowledge that I understand the market demand for that again that's another kind of system right that the [TS]

01:26:51   newspapers are in trouble as it is and so they need to be able to raise money [TS]

01:26:56   and to do that you need to have the attention of people. [TS]

01:26:59   And so you're going to write shorter stories are not going to context. I'm fine with all of that product of it. [TS]

01:27:06   You're a guy who loves talking. [TS]

01:27:08   Two or three hours about voting that when you make your You Tube videos they're like five minutes long [TS]

01:27:13   and have interesting visuals and lot stuff gets left out because you think people won't watch a long video [TS]

01:27:19   but I am not claiming to be holding society to account. Yeah that that is the thing that just really really gets me. [TS]

01:27:30   It's like letting you think that pompous and self-important I both think that they're pompous and self-important [TS]

01:27:36   and I also think that normal people give the news too much credit that the normal people know it was a terrible word to [TS]

01:27:46   use but if you just if you're just not paying attention it's easy to over assume you know what the news is doing [TS]

01:27:55   and you know for you know it everybody talks back to you know the. [TS]

01:28:00   The Nixon tapes and a new Woodward and Bernstein as example always comes up [TS]

01:28:05   and it's like hey guys hey guys that was like forty years ago now can we you know I love that one off no it wasn't [TS]

01:28:13   forty years ago. That's quite recent. [TS]

01:28:15   Yeah so the stern stuff is great [TS]

01:28:18   but in the modern world I think it's really interesting that someone like someone like Snowden exists [TS]

01:28:23   and he has you know so many more options about how to actually disseminate that information [TS]

01:28:29   and so we do live in a different kind of world where informants can get out their information more easily [TS]

01:28:36   and he went to several newspapers if I remember I don't remember because I wasn't following that super closely [TS]

01:28:42   but I think you would have three [TS]

01:28:43   or four newspapers he released it with I don't remember the details of her involve the papers but [TS]

01:28:48   but I mean he went to multiple multiple newspapers we have to do that because of you know us different markets [TS]

01:28:55   but yeah yeah yeah yeah and so I think it's. [TS]

01:29:00   I don't want to speculate too much on his internal motivations [TS]

01:29:03   but my guess is that he he may have done something like that because he wanted to to make sure that other other people [TS]

01:29:13   may have have taken it seriously [TS]

01:29:16   and so you want to be in a newspaper because people assume that newspapers are where the serious stuff happen. [TS]

01:29:21   He took advantage of this situation in which he thinks is folks. [TS]

01:29:26   Yes but I would think that he if that was his goal that was a good goal. Right. [TS]

01:29:31   It it's going to come off as more respectable. [TS]

01:29:34   He's going through and he meant what they were but let's just say like the New York Times [TS]

01:29:38   and then if he has Snowden dot com slash blog slash secrets it just is just not going to have the same kind of impact [TS]

01:29:47   but I just I think that that's the kind of it's like a shared delusion almost like everyone believes it [TS]

01:29:54   but I don't I don't think that's necessarily the case and one of the things that I'm interested in. [TS]

01:30:00   His just in the in the past couple weeks there been a few reporters who have launched their own smaller scale [TS]

01:30:10   independent news organizations. [TS]

01:30:13   Yeah and the one that I'm most interested in that I haven't I haven't had too much time to look at [TS]

01:30:18   but I'm going to be curious to see where it goes. Is do you know Nate Silver of five thirty eight. [TS]

01:30:25   I know vaguely he was a former baseball statistician I believe who then moved into politics [TS]

01:30:32   and basically applied statistical science to political elections. [TS]

01:30:37   And surprise surprise the introduction of science into a field makes that much more accurate [TS]

01:30:43   and I think that the super interesting thing about him is that I followed a lot of his reporting in that previous [TS]

01:30:51   presidential elections and. [TS]

01:30:55   This is always where I get my news because I try to find individuals that I think are very trustworthy [TS]

01:31:00   and I think he is he's one of those kinds of people [TS]

01:31:03   and his News reporting on the elections was just so different than anything you would find in the major newspapers [TS]

01:31:10   and it's like this is a guy who is concerned about accuracy about actually getting it right [TS]

01:31:17   and it was interesting to see how someone could still report on the elections but from a very different perspective [TS]

01:31:26   and and still be accurate and still be interesting. [TS]

01:31:31   And so what I'm curious is now that that's the Internet is just so established you have people like Nate Silver who [TS]

01:31:40   have worked with in the news industry but who are also young enough [TS]

01:31:47   and not entrenched enough to possibly want to spin off their own news organizations to some extent that actually to me [TS]

01:31:56   holds a lot of promise for the future of news. I can I can really. [TS]

01:32:00   I imagine a future where there are smaller scale operations that are run by people who are maybe less directly attached [TS]

01:32:09   to the current system as it exists and can produce much more interesting and still accurate stories [TS]

01:32:16   and not have to have a you know we're going to publish fifty articles every day. OK people let's go. [TS]

01:32:24   We're going to have a much smaller volume but we're going to produce higher quality content. [TS]

01:32:30   So I'm kind of hopeful about that stuff. I'll be curious to see in a couple years where that is. [TS]

01:32:34   What about all the people in the world who are not so much like you with very specific interests [TS]

01:32:42   and a desire for great data to want to know lots of things what about the person who wants to know. [TS]

01:32:48   There was a plane crash in Malaysia. Manchester United sacked manager David Cameron did this. [TS]

01:32:55   This celebrity has just brought out this movie. [TS]

01:32:58   This is someone who wants to know lots of little things they can not everyone can read [TS]

01:33:03   or like nineteen page makes over analysis of like I think. [TS]

01:33:09   You know there are there are a lot of people who are not you that just one like [TS]

01:33:12   and they want someone to queue right things for them. [TS]

01:33:16   To summarize for them how in a graceful way and I mean that's what that's the definition of a newspaper almost. [TS]

01:33:23   Well that's to me the most is almost a different kind of thing. [TS]

01:33:27   Again I have no problem with this kind of like stock ticker news almost you do you just want to like a little one [TS]

01:33:33   sentence about what you know what. Thing has gone on in the world. [TS]

01:33:37   I can totally understand that it's just it's like the mid length news that I often have have problems with stuff that [TS]

01:33:45   just is both inaccurate and misrepresentative. [TS]

01:33:53   I don't know I guess again this is just a particular frustration of mine because of how many times people send me stuff [TS]

01:33:57   I think Oh maybe. [TS]

01:34:00   There could be a really interesting video in this newspaper article and so I go off and I research it [TS]

01:34:04   and it's like oh it turns out that this is just wildly inaccurate and misrepresentative. [TS]

01:34:10   That's the kind of stuff that I don't like [TS]

01:34:11   and I just see it so often that it makes me kind of disregard all of the news [TS]

01:34:16   but again I have no problem with people just wanting to be aware of sort of of what's going on in the news [TS]

01:34:21   but I don't think that those little overviews are not enough for newspapers to survive on. [TS]

01:34:29   They need to have more stuff for people to actually read and to go to. Maybe that's why they don't. [TS]

01:34:36   Yeah you know [TS]

01:34:37   and I mean the great thing about the Internet is if you are super into something there's going to be a place that has [TS]

01:34:43   all the in-depth news you could ever want about your super narrow topic you know whatever whatever it is like those [TS]

01:34:49   kinds of sites exist and more general stuff. So it's harder for them to exist. [TS]

01:34:54   But your blog posts which I'm sure you put in the show nice was excellent [TS]

01:34:58   but the last one of the one of my favorite blogs you've written so make sure you put that in the shadows where you kind [TS]

01:35:03   of dissected a T.V. [TS]

01:35:04   News report this is actually one the rare things that I wrote I wrote this basically in an afternoon because I got [TS]

01:35:09   incredibly furious about it. [TS]

01:35:10   But this is a good example as well as some of the things that frustrate me with with the news is. [TS]

01:35:16   This example happened to be about a particular thing that was happening at the last the last debt ceiling in the United [TS]

01:35:22   States [TS]

01:35:23   and there was there was talk on the news for a while about is the mint going to make this trillion dollar coin [TS]

01:35:29   and this was this is all over the news [TS]

01:35:31   and this article I want to be a kind of thing that just like being aware of press releases. [TS]

01:35:37   I would like people to be aware of a particular kind of thing you often see on the news which is these video segments [TS]

01:35:45   I'm sure nothing like the video segments you have produced Brady but these video segments that are done. [TS]

01:35:50   It's seems almost like by third parties you know that the anchor like turns it over to you know [TS]

01:35:55   and here's some guy you've never seen before talking about a thing or just like little video segment. [TS]

01:36:01   If you pay attention to them you will realize are entirely content free that you basically learn nothing more than the [TS]

01:36:11   title told you and so and so in this particular example Kember what news channel it was on or whatever [TS]

01:36:17   but they made some so little three minute explanation about you know is the United States going to make the trillion [TS]

01:36:23   dollar coin. Three minutes is a lot for T.V. News report. [TS]

01:36:29   Super and I go through this like scene by scene about what they talk about [TS]

01:36:33   and just show how it's almost like it's trying to trick you into thinking that they're saying something [TS]

01:36:39   but they're saying nothing. [TS]

01:36:42   And once you tune into that on a lot of news segments that you see if you listen [TS]

01:36:46   and think Wait what do I know now that I didn't know two minutes ago. The answer is basically nothing. [TS]

01:36:52   Like they told you nothing at all [TS]

01:36:54   and in this one in particular they make a couple of just weird little Not exactly errors [TS]

01:36:59   but this kind of thing I see a lot in the News of the weird little sidesteps that I was only aware of because I happen [TS]

01:37:05   to be trying to research this topic and I thought it was going to be part of my debt video [TS]

01:37:09   but I realize there's there's nothing to this story. [TS]

01:37:12   Even though everybody's talking about it there's nothing here to discuss. So I never put it in the video itself. [TS]

01:37:18   But yes so what. Once you're aware of that like watch the news people and then think how do you know what it actually. [TS]

01:37:23   What do I know now that I didn't know before I started [TS]

01:37:26   and often it's it's very very little art can be compressed down to just a sentence [TS]

01:37:30   or two you know twenty minutes worth of stuff that you watch so this is why I am not a big consumer of the news [TS]

01:37:38   but why why is it so well can change that in your opinion. [TS]

01:37:41   I know there are you know you could talk about sort of a downward spiral [TS]

01:37:44   but in general terms still millions upon millions of people watch the news every night and buy newspapers every day. [TS]

01:37:50   Defense is bad. [TS]

01:37:52   If it's really that why are people paying money for [TS]

01:37:55   or devoting their time to well first of all there's a presumption that people. [TS]

01:38:00   Are you aware of the things that's wrong [TS]

01:38:03   and it's impossible to be aware of the things that are wrong unless you know the things you know like [TS]

01:38:09   when I read stuff. [TS]

01:38:10   You sort of have a presumption that things are correct unless you happen to know otherwise [TS]

01:38:14   and so I don't think it's obvious to people that that a lot of the news is kind of worthless or pointless [TS]

01:38:20   or wrong because there's no reason that they would they would know that so you can expect people would necessarily [TS]

01:38:26   judge it that way. [TS]

01:38:26   Like if I read some new story about a topic that I'm unfamiliar with I have no ability to judge its correctness you [TS]

01:38:33   know and even I would just sort of oh I guess it's sort of mostly right. [TS]

01:38:35   I only happen to know if I'm if I research it more than discover the thing is the thing is wrong. [TS]

01:38:40   As for as for why people consume the news. [TS]

01:38:46   There are a few topics of conversation that I sometimes get into arguments at like dinners with friends [TS]

01:38:51   or you know acquaintances and things and one of them is this the thing about how I don't really follow the news [TS]

01:38:57   and it seems like it's a societal expectation that if you are you're an informed citizen [TS]

01:39:04   and part of that is keeping up on the news. So it's not irresponsible of you to not know what's going on in the world. [TS]

01:39:11   Yes that's that's usually the response that I get from a lot of people sometimes like great anger that I don't follow [TS]

01:39:17   all of the news or you know we joke you know [TS]

01:39:20   when I say I'm disappointed in you Brady I'm not really disappointed in you [TS]

01:39:23   but I have definitely I've only met people who [TS]

01:39:25   when they find out that I don't follow the news I go you know I have to think less of you now because this is a kind of [TS]

01:39:32   societal benchmark it does amaze me. It does amaze me that you don't follow the news. [TS]

01:39:37   I'm not like disappointed in me [TS]

01:39:40   but it does amaze me that someone who is interested in the things you're interested in is not more interested in news [TS]

01:39:49   like this. I guess you're a history buff. That's what I think and I couldn't be a more wrong description of me. [TS]

01:39:55   I just think like you know you look at you'd like to weigh. [TS]

01:40:00   Until the dust has settled [TS]

01:40:02   and that's kind of what that's what history is history is waiting till the dust of news has settled [TS]

01:40:09   and we can just rationally go through what happened and how things work and why things happen the way they did [TS]

01:40:15   and the confusion of what's going on now seems to appeal to you want to wait and see the result [TS]

01:40:23   and then just dissect and think ahead and I went down I couldn't I couldn't disagree with you more. [TS]

01:40:30   Well I guess I have no problem with with the confusion of what's going on now with a very different issue from [TS]

01:40:35   following the news I don't think that following the news is enlightening about confusion on particular issues. [TS]

01:40:42   No no no you don't think that that's why you went away to the finishes [TS]

01:40:46   and you know it's not it's not that I want to wait until it all finishes. [TS]

01:40:51   That's that's imply I'm waiting for stuff to be settled. [TS]

01:40:55   There are there are things that I follow that are confusing in the present that I don't have to wait until things are [TS]

01:41:03   all settled I mean I guess but you know this is a minor example bit of a story that I'm very interested in. [TS]

01:41:11   I have been sort of following the stories of the protests against the Google and Yahoo buses out in San Francisco [TS]

01:41:21   and it's you know relatively small and sort of local story but it's caught my interest in a bunch of ways. [TS]

01:41:28   I am I'm criticise Li interested in that because it's a very complicated story. [TS]

01:41:33   And for those who aren't who are not familiar the gist of it is it's a story of gentrification. [TS]

01:41:39   People who lived in San Francisco before the technology companies came in [TS]

01:41:44   and the conflicts between those two groups you know the new to the new techies [TS]

01:41:48   and the residents who were previously there and so Google has buses that pick up their employees [TS]

01:41:55   and those are excellent targets for you know protests are complaining about because it's a big. [TS]

01:42:00   Check that says Google or Yahoo on the side of it so I've been following this story [TS]

01:42:06   and this is not a the dust is settled kind of issue it's doesn't bother me about that story in fact I'm very interested [TS]

01:42:14   in that and I don't know how to resolve the kinds of problems that are that are happening there I guess. [TS]

01:42:19   My my my disinterest in following the news just has more to do with the information density is very low [TS]

01:42:28   and I feel like this is the next this is an experiment that you do your listener can kind of run on yourself which is [TS]

01:42:36   that if you follow the news a lot you read newspapers. [TS]

01:42:39   I think in your mind how many of the things that you're reading now or that you're watching now. [TS]

01:42:47   Will matter at all in say three months time. [TS]

01:42:53   At least when I do this I think the result is you know very few of the things that you're consuming [TS]

01:42:58   or reading about matter at all in the long term [TS]

01:43:03   and I think that again that's a bias because of the way the news reports. We acknowledge it's a structural requirement. [TS]

01:43:11   Just the stuff that's happening right now I would say it's an interesting exercise for the listener to think OK well if [TS]

01:43:18   if I spend I don't know a half hour watching the news [TS]

01:43:21   or reading the newspaper like what is this activity of mine contributing towards like why why am I doing this now. [TS]

01:43:30   If you like reading the news again I have no objection to this just like before I'm a very live [TS]

01:43:33   and let live kind of recreation not playing a game like if it's recreation there's no argument there. [TS]

01:43:39   You enjoy something. [TS]

01:43:40   There is no argument against that is totally reasonable [TS]

01:43:43   but if you are doing it you know as I've had conversations with people out of some sort of feeling that you need to be [TS]

01:43:50   informed I would suspect that if you really start thinking about it [TS]

01:43:55   and you start paying attention to what are you actually reading and watching and how much of this stuff is. [TS]

01:44:00   Going to matter. [TS]

01:44:01   You know at some arbitrary point in the future it's very low [TS]

01:44:05   and so I don't think that it is it is actually necessarily informing you about what's going on I think it is informing [TS]

01:44:13   you of what's going on. It's just what's going on when it mattered what was going on then white matter in three months. [TS]

01:44:18   Yeah that that. That's correct yeah. [TS]

01:44:20   By that there's a much better way to fix it I said the exact opposite of what I meant which is what happened. [TS]

01:44:26   You talk extemporaneously. Yeah it's informing you of what's happening right now. [TS]

01:44:30   But but do you need to know or know that words or more importantly is that how you want to spend your time [TS]

01:44:39   and I think that if if people are following news out of out of a feeling of obligation that that is that is a bad way [TS]

01:44:46   to go to spend that time if you want to know about stuff you're better off possibly doing other things [TS]

01:44:53   and then following the news so I don't think then I say it to sound self-important. [TS]

01:44:59   I don't think many people who read the paper every morning or watch the T.V. [TS]

01:45:04   News every night doing it like it's a chore like clearing out the gutters or mowing the lawn. [TS]

01:45:10   I think they're doing it because. Like I don't think people do it like against their Again you know. [TS]

01:45:18   I'd much rather be doing something else but gosh I've got to read the paper. [TS]

01:45:23   So like I say they may say they do it for a reason [TS]

01:45:26   but I think they're doing it for a different reason I don't I think you're right that people put a lot of importance [TS]

01:45:36   and credibility on the news and if they saw how the sausage is made. Mortified. [TS]

01:45:41   I agree with that and if they knew how often stuff is wrong they would be mortified [TS]

01:45:45   and if they you know the way news is made is could be quite shocking for them [TS]

01:45:51   but I don't think people can shimming news with the motives. [TS]

01:46:00   If you think they are consuming you I think I think they're doing it because they're entertained by [TS]

01:46:04   and also because there's nothing humans like more than gossip and knowing what other humans are doing. [TS]

01:46:11   Like whether it's whether it's whether it's what the next door neighbors have done [TS]

01:46:16   or something that happened on the other side of the world. [TS]

01:46:18   People just love gossip and I mean gossip in every sense of the word in that in the in the pointless. [TS]

01:46:26   So in sake of silence a sense [TS]

01:46:28   but also in the you know one hundred people died in a landslide sends people people people like that. [TS]

01:46:37   That's why newspapers get to exist. [TS]

01:46:40   People don't like the ads and people don't read papers because someone tells them they have to [TS]

01:46:47   and he pulls like Can shaming some of that stuff and [TS]

01:46:52   and it's exploited it's exploited by commercial interests in the form of press releases [TS]

01:46:57   and it's exploited by governments in the form of propaganda and that corrupts the product. [TS]

01:47:02   But everything's corrupted by something and that doesn't mean it's acceptable but that's just the way it is [TS]

01:47:08   but I don't think people you know. [TS]

01:47:13   I think people have as lofty a view of the news as maybe you think they do that doesn't mean it's not important people [TS]

01:47:20   don't like it. [TS]

01:47:22   Yeah I mean maybe this is just a bias [TS]

01:47:23   when if I get into these arguments with people that they are there these are their go to arguments the news is [TS]

01:47:31   important and I am I am reading about important things and people don't want to say that it is kind of like it. [TS]

01:47:37   There is there is medicine in the dog food that there is some medicine put in the dog food from time to time [TS]

01:47:43   and I think you know yes I could mention Watergate and yes you could mention the Snowden stuff [TS]

01:47:49   but even on that even in that even in the little day to day ways whether it's the local council being held to account [TS]

01:47:56   because the local paper ran a story about their sneaky attempt. [TS]

01:48:00   A ban dogs off the leash in the local park opposite the road which is a purely hypothetical scenario I don't think I [TS]

01:48:06   saw you complaining about on Twitter. [TS]

01:48:11   But like even on that even on that micro level like amongst all that rubbish that's in my local newspaper here at my [TS]

01:48:19   little town. [TS]

01:48:21   There is one or two stories a week that the local councillors don't like [TS]

01:48:26   or some businessman who's trying to get something built [TS]

01:48:29   and the local people are protesting about don't like like there is that public accountability [TS]

01:48:34   and there are new things coming on stream that are taking that role. [TS]

01:48:38   You know you can name and shame people on Twitter now [TS]

01:48:40   and maybe slowly the old creek institutions of twenty four hour news channels [TS]

01:48:46   and newspapers are being replaced by new technology but that new technology is still doing that fourth estate job [TS]

01:48:55   and I think you're throwing the baby with the bathwater [TS]

01:48:58   and if we didn't have that public voice whether it's called Twitter and Facebook [TS]

01:49:04   or whether it's old fashioned newspapers we would have problems. [TS]

01:49:10   I think I think there is these corrupt institutions that you dislike so much. [TS]

01:49:16   So play an important role just like courts can be corrupted. [TS]

01:49:20   But if we did away with courts tomorrow I think society would be hurt. [TS]

01:49:27   We had a lot of back you on that one but I'm not sure how we jump to the course [TS]

01:49:33   but yes I know I will I will totally back you on that one. [TS]

01:49:38   Again the notion of the something holding society to account is something that I am I am very much in favor of like I'm [TS]

01:49:47   OK with that and I'm very interested to see where some of these newer younger News projects go [TS]

01:49:56   but you don't think the big thing the big boys do or don't know. [TS]

01:50:00   Do you think they're completely devoid of any aspect of that and there's not [TS]

01:50:05   and that those in positions of power in any way moderated by the spotlight of publicity. [TS]

01:50:13   So at all is a very very strong statement [TS]

01:50:15   and I actually have a link here that I added to the show notes because I thought I thought it was an interesting [TS]

01:50:21   example it was. [TS]

01:50:23   Look at think it was The Washington Post in the States but they did as an example of positive news that was good. [TS]

01:50:32   They did a very interesting article about bureaucratic waste in the United States [TS]

01:50:40   and it was kind of an unbelievable article because it it goes into details about how this it sounds it sounds like it's [TS]

01:50:46   out of the movie Brazil [TS]

01:50:47   but there is an underground facility in West Virginia that's an old abandoned coal mine that has been turned into a [TS]

01:50:56   football length paper processing facility that has to do with processing all the paperwork for the United States [TS]

01:51:03   federal workers retirement and [TS]

01:51:06   when you read about this you think how can this exist this is appalling that this is the system that is in use [TS]

01:51:13   and it has been this way for the past forty years and that that I put that in the news. [TS]

01:51:20   Because I thought that's an interesting example that I came across recently of something in a major newspaper that you [TS]

01:51:26   get I'm presuming that it's right. Sheds light in an interesting way on a particular kind of problem. [TS]

01:51:33   You know governments are always going to be slow to change. [TS]

01:51:36   That's the part of their nature that's fine I don't expect them to be as as quick changing as companies [TS]

01:51:40   and I think we would necessarily want them to be of quick changing of companies [TS]

01:51:44   but maybe a unbelievable mine under the ground processing paperwork for forty years is like maybe we should update that [TS]

01:51:52   and wring out of all I have to say I thought math never in West Virginia and I want to see that. Sounds great. [TS]

01:52:01   So super cool but at the same time it's horrifying. [TS]

01:52:06   So so never is never is a strong word [TS]

01:52:08   but if we're going to do a throwback to the to the follow up talk about the pluses [TS]

01:52:12   and minuses I think that there are there are winners there. [TS]

01:52:17   There are good things that are done in major newspapers [TS]

01:52:19   but they are just relatively small compared to the enormous stream of irrelevancy. [TS]

01:52:28   That said that is produced there are many systems that act like this in life where there's there's an enormous amount [TS]

01:52:35   of stuff that maybe isn't worth very much and there's there's a couple of diamonds in the rough [TS]

01:52:40   and in a pre internet world you know I would say that newspapers are much more defensible. [TS]

01:52:46   You know because you need some kind of publishing medium you need to be able to speak to the broader world. [TS]

01:52:51   Yeah [TS]

01:52:51   but in a post Internet world I'm sufficiently confident that those diamonds can be found without the existence of the [TS]

01:53:00   newspapers. [TS]

01:53:01   Well [TS]

01:53:01   and what you're saying is being completely borne out by commercial reality to I mean obviously newspapers are now struggling. [TS]

01:53:08   Yeah. Because because a lot of that roll out of of these sort of overarching curators is no longer necessary. [TS]

01:53:17   Yeah and I can't say we're going to shed a tear for the newspapers especially [TS]

01:53:21   when they free boot our videos as often as they do with downline sections which they're the worst about now. [TS]

01:53:28   Yeah yeah that's the photo is not super respectable I don't see that much with smaller sites [TS]

01:53:33   but anyway at the site point there is there is this there is this minor danger or problem [TS]

01:53:41   and I don't I haven't thought this through much [TS]

01:53:43   but there is this slight concern that if we no longer have a commercially sustainable way for people to put resources [TS]

01:53:52   into proper investigation and exposure. [TS]

01:53:55   Will we be poorer for that for example if you've got some crummy newspaper that's right. [TS]

01:54:00   All this irrelevant stuff and I am the first to admit that happens they usually have like one man [TS]

01:54:07   or woman on staff who's just you know sits in the corner [TS]

01:54:11   and is allowed to beaver away on some story that was unlike those that kind of luxury doesn't exist as much in this [TS]

01:54:19   kind of mainly an Internet world where I think you're wrong about that I think you're wrong about that [TS]

01:54:24   and I'm going to I'm going to give an example that is going to sound like the crazies example to people who are on the [TS]

01:54:28   Internet but you know Buzz Feed. [TS]

01:54:32   Yes OK So so people on from Buzz Feed produces If you go to their Web site it looks like at a glance it looks like some [TS]

01:54:40   sort of terrible click BT Web site that has like Top ten celebrity surgery disasters you know which I mean I think that [TS]

01:54:55   you were kind of saying that. [TS]

01:54:59   And but they have [TS]

01:55:01   but they must they must be running some kind of internal team that does this exact same function because every once in [TS]

01:55:09   a while they come out with some amazing piece of original reporting one of the examples that that just happened [TS]

01:55:16   recently which is why it's on the top of my mind was a total investigation into how has the United States. [TS]

01:55:25   Let let say how has the executive branch of the government gamed so many powers in the war on terror to do all kinds of [TS]

01:55:34   things that weren't in the original bill that gave them his powers [TS]

01:55:39   and they recently ended up doing just a show with radio land that goes into this and I'll try to find the article [TS]

01:55:44   and I'll put the Radiolab show in and the show notes. [TS]

01:55:47   But this is clearly something that took a lot of time and a lot of deaths to investigate [TS]

01:55:53   and I think a couple of these other things from Buzz Feed as well that I might be totally wrong here I'm speculating [TS]

01:55:59   about their internal struck. Sure but but it seems like oh OK you guys are doing a similar kind of thing your Muppet. [TS]

01:56:06   Are you articles you're using that to fund probably much longer much more in-depth pieces you know unflattering [TS]

01:56:14   occurring you know completely agreeing with my argument that to sustain responsible labor intensive journalism you need [TS]

01:56:23   some kind of commercially successful or as you would describe a relevant vehicle Aranda why I guess I have that. [TS]

01:56:33   Yeah and I could have done it [TS]

01:56:35   and now if we want to look at it on the Internet we need to clip eighty per state that this is this is I agree with you [TS]

01:56:43   like this is this is clearly the successful model for possibly doing some of the stuff [TS]

01:56:49   and I'm like I'm interested to see something like Buzz Feed do that [TS]

01:56:52   but I'm much more interested to see like I said some someone like five thirty eight try to do like an in-depth [TS]

01:57:01   respectable thing every day all day. Like that's the that's the experiment that I'm very curious to see. [TS]

01:57:09   But I guess my thought here is just like. [TS]

01:57:13   The Buzz Feed does not have an aura of respectability around it and I just think that Buzz Feed is what it is. [TS]

01:57:25   And they they want. [TS]

01:57:27   Again I'm just speculating about their internal structure but they are a commercial entity they want to exist [TS]

01:57:32   and I like Buzz Feed almost more because then they're more honest about what it is like a lot we have a whole bunch of [TS]

01:57:37   like click baby stuff and also we every once in a while produce an amazing piece of music [TS]

01:57:43   and they using that repeatable stuff to to improve their reputation and brand to become sane and more respectable [TS]

01:57:52   and more appealing I mean I mean that's just I'm sure when newspapers started they were probably these young upstart [TS]

01:57:59   and it took. [TS]

01:58:00   I'm using used to build this deserved or undeserved reputation as these institutions [TS]

01:58:06   and papers of record I mean I would I would disagree just because of the presumed amount of resources you had for [TS]

01:58:15   starting a newspaper versus starting starting a website you know that like pre-existing newspapers had had to come with [TS]

01:58:21   a lot of blessings and resources to pop into existence in the first place [TS]

01:58:26   but I know nothing about the history of these papers I have no idea mate maybe people were complaining about you know [TS]

01:58:33   like I can't deal with all of these you know which Saint are you articled knew this newfangled piece of paper that [TS]

01:58:40   showed up at my door. [TS]

01:58:42   Boy is this dumb [TS]

01:58:42   and then eventually you know they're exposing articles about the you know the I don't know the feudal lord down the [TS]

01:58:49   street. [TS]

01:58:49   Boy that's really great because it looked like a length skirts are going to ruin society you know who knows who knows [TS]

01:59:01   about that [TS]

01:59:01   but I guess I get that it's also just like like I have I have no complaints about people who just read stuff because [TS]

01:59:09   they like you know that I have no issue with that. I guess I feel like. [TS]

01:59:15   It's just a question of of for a for a lot of how do you want to spend your time if you like reading [TS]

01:59:21   or watching the news I think that that's fine as long as you sort of face it for what it is [TS]

01:59:29   and I would argue that maybe I get I just don't like the aura of respectability that is attached to a lot of the old [TS]

01:59:35   school news stuff and I think that the Internet can replace a lot of that maybe in a more honest and maybe [TS]

01:59:41   and maybe in a better way. [TS]

01:59:43   And I'm very curious to see how the whole news experiment goes and say the next five years [TS]

01:59:49   or so with with with that with with newspapers being both in trouble [TS]

01:59:54   and a bunch of upstarts in the news business I will be very curious but. [TS]

02:00:00   I guess my final parting word of advice is like I think for people who are people people who want to try like find out [TS]

02:00:08   what's going on in the world you can't necessarily do all the investigations yourself. [TS]

02:00:14   I think probably an optimal strategy right now is to try to find individuals that you trust follow those people [TS]

02:00:23   and see you know what what are they talking about. [TS]

02:00:25   Because there may be less and less influence by pre-existing structures. [TS]

02:00:31   That's that's kind of my thought about like it used to [TS]

02:00:33   when I was going around the world maybe follow individual people so unready Flat Earth News by Nick Davies because of [TS]

02:00:39   someone who worked as a journalist for fourteen years on the inside. That's me. [TS]

02:00:44   I read that book and I was like that is exactly right and I would turn to Paypal [TS]

02:00:49   and say if you want to know the problems of being a journalist and why journalism is the way it is. [TS]

02:00:54   He he's brutally honest about a few of a few of them. [TS]

02:00:57   The channel is him in the electric fence and some of the other things he talks about. [TS]

02:01:01   Yeah I feel you could have read that book and still have any kind of positive view about the news like that [TS]

02:01:08   but that book is so depressing I think especially if you're coming to it unprepared. [TS]

02:01:13   Boy that book is not is not a ray of sunshine on a cloudy day. [TS]

02:01:17   You know that that that book is just piles of poo on top of more miles of that's what it is [TS]

02:01:23   but it's interesting reading I did I read the book just after I'd left the baby say and obviously a lot of my family [TS]

02:01:29   and friends a stooge analysts and I often say isn't this book right. [TS]

02:01:33   I saw things from [TS]

02:01:34   and they do get a bit upset at me so maybe I mean I guess I've been the advocate of journalism to a certain extent in [TS]

02:01:41   this pod cast because someone's going to argue with that. [TS]

02:01:44   But certainly that book paints a bleak [TS]

02:01:47   and pretty honest picture of of a lot of the problems that face journalism at the moment you know realizing what this [TS]

02:01:54   podcast is what Brady's Papercuts where I have a quick little moan about something small. [TS]

02:02:00   Then you do these big gaping wounds of society where you just bring down over issues like the education system [TS]

02:02:07   and the media OK let's know what we're talking about next time what will have to take a lighter topic for for for for [TS]

02:02:16   episode two of season two. Hello Internet. [TS]

02:02:19   I don't know the next wave next week will be Brady complaints about staffing is turn [TS]

02:02:23   and then Gray talks about why democracy is a huge Well you know we'll have to talk about which. [TS]