The Talk Show

6: Laggy by Any Standard, with Guy English


00:00:00   you know one thing I've noticed i have

00:00:01   noticed I thought about this last week

00:00:02   that I'm better friends in general with

00:00:05   programmers programmers make for good

00:00:08   people in my opinion it better friends

00:00:12   then what like other journalists yeah

00:00:14   well you know it

00:00:15   not that there's anything wrong with

00:00:16   other journalists but I I don't know I

00:00:21   to me there's something like the way

00:00:23   that programmers minds work

00:00:25   aah at I something about it appeals to

00:00:30   me like one thing I've noticed over the

00:00:31   years and I do you know we very seldom

00:00:32   do this you and I sometimes once in

00:00:34   awhile

00:00:35   very occasionally while we're at a

00:00:36   conference will get together and have a

00:00:38   drink or something like that

00:00:39   yeah you're a bit of a teetotaler

00:00:41   exactly nah its if we don't it's the all

00:00:45   Syrians it's not like we get there and

00:00:46   anybody really didn't general talks

00:00:48   politics right but I have noticed over

00:00:51   the years that two programmers of

00:00:55   different political allegiances can have

00:00:59   a reasonable discussion in a way that

00:01:02   almost nobody else if one is a

00:01:04   conservative the others a liberal you

00:01:06   know a republican a democrat whatever

00:01:08   whatever you guys have up there and and

00:01:09   in Montreal but you could be on

00:01:12   different sides and programmers can have

00:01:14   because they're their minds work in a

00:01:16   very logical way that they can have a

00:01:19   reasonable discourse about politics

00:01:21   that's not to say one is going to agree

00:01:22   with the other but it it doesn't devolve

00:01:26   into ad hominem arguments and it's

00:01:29   interesting said I die agree

00:01:32   actually I've had a lot of discussions

00:01:34   with people that I don't agree with

00:01:35   politically but it's always remained

00:01:38   pretty civil and and i think you're

00:01:42   right i think it's like the like an

00:01:43   analytical one of you where the other

00:01:45   guy has a good point well okay you

00:01:48   accept the point and you move on because

00:01:50   if you're arguing about design or

00:01:52   something like that

00:01:53   well that's always going to be

00:01:54   subjective but there's an awful lot of

00:01:56   programming when you're collaborating

00:01:57   with someone where it's like math either

00:01:59   works or it doesn't work right

00:02:01   I mean ultimately your that the feature

00:02:04   it works it doesn't mean I mean you may

00:02:06   have designed poorly but it's very

00:02:08   concrete like is a crash

00:02:10   what does it actually achieve the result

00:02:11   that you want

00:02:11   right are you getting 60 frames per

00:02:14   second or you not getting 60 frames per

00:02:16   second and three yes three binary

00:02:19   exactly and I feel that it makes it in

00:02:22   the same way that works for technical

00:02:24   arguments emerge for political arguments

00:02:26   just just shooting the shit about movies

00:02:28   it also makes for good conversation

00:02:32   yeah and I could you can see that any

00:02:35   movies is a bit different because it's

00:02:36   getting subjected to that right like

00:02:38   what's your 60 frames per second for a

00:02:41   movie like what's your objective what

00:02:42   are you trying to achieve kind of it's

00:02:46   not obvious still makes it but there's

00:02:48   that sort of mindset still makes for a

00:02:50   good conversation that's why i do i just

00:02:53   have once you know I get back and I

00:02:55   catch up on sleep a little bit always

00:02:57   occurs to me that i just have I have a

00:02:59   great time at WWDC yeah I have a blasty

00:03:02   and what I mean you've got it

00:03:04   I mean you're very analytical going

00:03:05   again so you probably think i'm not

00:03:08   surprised that you'd find that I super

00:03:11   refreshing right and you know even the

00:03:14   journalists who were on the same beat

00:03:15   the guys who work at macworld and stuff

00:03:17   like that

00:03:18   I mean they're you know they may not be

00:03:19   programmers but they're be closer to

00:03:21   being programmers than most people who

00:03:22   can you know say that their writers and

00:03:26   I only go very analytical he acts like a

00:03:28   lot of analytical people right and I

00:03:30   think that's why you know the like Jason

00:03:33   cells podcast the incomparable where

00:03:35   they talk about movies and science

00:03:37   fiction and stuff like that that I did

00:03:38   it's more interesting to me than when

00:03:40   you're you know general-purpose science

00:03:43   fiction movie podcast would be because

00:03:45   their approach to it is is again

00:03:48   analytical yeah gram a big financial and

00:03:51   again they did a sect the subject and

00:03:57   lovingly but they do look really good

00:03:59   job of sort of tearing it down taking it

00:04:00   apart and seeing what they like and

00:04:02   don't like about it and when they

00:04:03   disagree it is it's it's a good argument

00:04:08   it's cooking right right to be getting

00:04:12   in fights last week i don't remember i

00:04:14   cannot yet a black either like tuesday

00:04:17   morning and what happened that Amy could

00:04:20   be an Amy and

00:04:21   no maybe I know you know what she was

00:04:22   very excited that you're going to be on

00:04:23   the show this week I yeah she's and she

00:04:27   actually said she might listen to it

00:04:28   this time

00:04:29   really yeah it's that's high praise she

00:04:31   didn't even listen to table soon she was

00:04:34   true that's true you know a couple

00:04:37   people only that that they were like at

00:04:41   the lab the live show last week they

00:04:43   said that you know that all that noise

00:04:45   in the back of the room you know that

00:04:46   that that was your wife

00:04:50   yeah it was also it was her who texted

00:04:54   me that they've closed the ball

00:04:55   oh is it yeah it is my dog both of them

00:04:58   did it was that got to text right during

00:05:00   the show

00:05:01   awesome i consider it and decided to be

00:05:03   polite

00:05:04   right from my wife and from the guy who

00:05:07   owns the podcast network i'm on there

00:05:09   are the two guys they're the two people

00:05:10   who who wanted the bar reopened rather

00:05:13   than the turns into the show

00:05:15   well i have to tell you like once the

00:05:17   bar open date stop listening to your

00:05:19   show

00:05:20   well my thigh while I listen after then

00:05:23   went back and listened to it again

00:05:25   cables awesome all cable is it's

00:05:27   certainly very attractive fellow oh I

00:05:30   keep saying that people that with it

00:05:31   with bringing them up there for the live

00:05:33   shows its cheating it's really like you

00:05:35   know it's it's it's just cheating so you

00:05:38   show up for your neighborhood

00:05:39   three-on-three basketball game and you

00:05:42   you've brought Kareem abdul-jabbar with

00:05:44   you and even since seven foot two and I

00:05:48   like personality-wise cable the cable

00:05:51   series like the the size of Hockenberry

00:05:54   on the side not the Hockenberry doesn't

00:05:57   have a great personality but I mean he's

00:05:58   got like it just a towering yeah immense

00:06:01   uses is a giant of a personality right

00:06:05   so you know what's funny i was trying to

00:06:07   reach for some kind of baseball metaphor

00:06:09   to describe cable but you went with the

00:06:12   cream into butter one soon was trying to

00:06:15   play your sports game but you beat me to

00:06:16   it

00:06:17   well basketball so is a rare sport where

00:06:19   you can it you can bring in a guy who's

00:06:25   seven foot two and then that's it

00:06:26   there's nothing anybody can do

00:06:28   we're going to mean there's nothing in

00:06:29   baseball that's quite like that mean you

00:06:31   can have I guess a pickup game and if

00:06:32   you brought in

00:06:33   the top pitcher in the major leagues

00:06:35   nobody is gonna hit the guy but it's not

00:06:36   going to be quite as obscene as you know

00:06:39   is 74 allegedly giant right now but I

00:06:45   thought that the live show went well

00:06:47   yeah yeah right my snap judgment on that

00:06:50   though the bar situation was a and I

00:06:52   couldn't really think about it or

00:06:53   discuss it because cable and I were amid

00:06:55   discussion but I'm just and that's why

00:06:57   you I think that you make better

00:06:58   decisions like that if you just have to

00:07:00   make the decision install right you make

00:07:02   the right one of my thought was

00:07:03   everybody if if we will open the bar and

00:07:11   it gets noisy in the back and people

00:07:12   can't listen to the show they can always

00:07:14   listen to the download version the next

00:07:16   day or next week whenever whereas if we

00:07:19   keep the bar closed they're never going

00:07:21   to get another chance to have that drink

00:07:22   I can't agree more

00:07:28   that's what I didn't I listen to the

00:07:29   show like the next day or whenever it

00:07:31   came out walking around San Francisco

00:07:33   and yeah that was a day so whenever I

00:07:39   got a fellow cable thanks a lot for that

00:07:40   might be my guest this week I should

00:07:44   probably say is a guy English guy thanks

00:07:48   for being here it's a pleasure

00:07:50   so guys background you enter and how to

00:07:53   describe what do you do what do you do

00:07:54   I'm a programmer but you were you

00:07:58   specializing graphics yeah more or less

00:08:00   but yeah i mean is i worked in the pc

00:08:03   game industry for years and did some

00:08:05   messed up on the consoles like PSP stuff

00:08:09   and then I left and joined your game me

00:08:12   Bennett did a bunch of mac software and

00:08:15   then when the iphone came out a started

00:08:17   contracting I've done a lot of the work

00:08:19   on games and graphics in particular

00:08:21   right but you're like a guy you're a guy

00:08:23   who's going to sweat the details on

00:08:25   frames per second

00:08:26   yeah you're gonna make your gonna make

00:08:29   something that's supposed to animate

00:08:30   you're going to sweat the details to

00:08:32   make it smooth

00:08:33   yes that's pretty much what i do i

00:08:35   optimize stuff you know get to get the

00:08:38   album's working figure out the pipeline

00:08:40   to make the process work smoothly

00:08:42   I'm I i still think I think that there's

00:08:45   some other WWE Cena

00:08:46   just to talk about ya think everybody is

00:08:49   sort of talked the retina macbook pro

00:08:53   more or less to death right but there is

00:08:56   something about that that I don't I

00:08:59   don't think I talked about this with

00:09:00   cable last week because i don't i don't

00:09:02   think it had the Machine long enough and

00:09:07   you you've seen it too

00:09:09   and the thing that got me and stop me if

00:09:12   i did talk about this with cable adds

00:09:13   all kind of a blur but that the pixels

00:09:18   per inch is lower than on the ipad then

00:09:21   on the iphone iphone is like 300 and

00:09:24   some that ipad is 267 pixels-per-inch in

00:09:27   that retina macbook pro is 220 pixels

00:09:30   per inch right and so I kind of thought

00:09:33   will make you know I know it's gonna

00:09:34   look awesome but I kind of thought maybe

00:09:36   it wouldn't look as awesome as the phone

00:09:39   and iPad because it's just not as many

00:09:40   pixels per inch and I know that part of

00:09:42   that is about expected viewing distance

00:09:44   from the screen and your tend to be

00:09:47   further away from a 15-inch laptop then

00:09:49   you are from an ipad and you tend to

00:09:51   hold on iphone really close to your face

00:09:53   but what I've found in the week now that

00:09:57   I'm really using this machine is that

00:10:00   text looks way better than on the even

00:10:04   the phone in the ipad its support

00:10:07   blowing me away that it looks even

00:10:09   better that it actually makes it makes

00:10:11   me start to see the pixels on the ipad

00:10:13   in the iphone retina displays and I

00:10:14   think I know what it is and it's the

00:10:16   sub-pixel anti-aliasing m which is only

00:10:20   on the mac and not on iOS for various

00:10:24   reasons and i know some pixel

00:10:27   anti-aliasing is still somewhat

00:10:29   controversial amongst those of us who

00:10:30   really care about like anti-aliasing

00:10:33   algorithms because I know like Mike

00:10:35   Maddux had a tweet a couple weeks ago he

00:10:37   told everybody they should just turn it

00:10:38   off that everything looks better if you

00:10:40   don't if you don't have it

00:10:41   yeah I and I guess I mean for anybody

00:10:47   who doesn't know the difference

00:10:48   I mean I don't want this is one of those

00:10:50   things where I could take 20 minutes to

00:10:51   explain it but on the mac it defaults to

00:10:56   they call it best for LCD any idea is

00:10:59   that you use the red green and blue

00:11:04   subpixels that comprise each actual

00:11:08   pixel on the screen use the physical

00:11:11   location of them to do the anti-aliasing

00:11:14   which if you zoom in if you take a

00:11:16   screenshot and zoom it way up you

00:11:18   actually get like these weird color

00:11:19   fringes around the letters so if you

00:11:22   have black text on a white background

00:11:24   traditional anti-aliasing the

00:11:27   anti-aliasing that would be done with

00:11:28   shades of grey which makes sense common

00:11:31   sense would tell you that's how you

00:11:32   would make these pixels look smoother

00:11:35   the curves look smoother with sub-pixel

00:11:38   anti-aliasing it's actually colors and

00:11:41   it looks really weird if you zoom in and

00:11:43   some people if the pixels on your

00:11:44   display a big enough can see it with

00:11:47   your naked eye and that bothers them and

00:11:49   it also does some weird things where it

00:11:50   kind of makes i think on old older

00:11:53   displays with bigger pixels it it makes

00:11:55   the fonts look thicker chunkier it will

00:11:59   chunkier than without any kind of

00:12:01   anti-aliasing right if you get if you

00:12:04   like but maybe you chunkier than with

00:12:06   traditional grayscale anti-aliasing I

00:12:09   think that makes them look like bolt

00:12:10   makes everything look a little bolder

00:12:12   you don't think so I don't think so

00:12:17   because I mean the tradition gray scale

00:12:18   and using all three of those pixels

00:12:20   going to be lit up like subjects is

00:12:22   gonna be lit up right right i don't know

00:12:25   maybe you know what I have to see

00:12:27   excited by side but either way there's

00:12:30   visual artifacts and I i think that the

00:12:33   idea was that if the pixels get small

00:12:35   enough you don't have to worry about

00:12:36   sub-pixel aunt is in that regular

00:12:38   anti-aliasing is good enough because the

00:12:40   pixels are so small but I using the

00:12:42   macbook pro for a week

00:12:44   I doesn't no doubt in my mind that that

00:12:46   sub-pixel anti-aliasing still makes a

00:12:48   difference it makes everything look it

00:12:51   makes text look just impossibly good and

00:12:54   you can see it because there are still

00:12:56   parts and in mac OS 10.7 em stuff that

00:13:00   what you're going to correctly there is

00:13:01   one of the reasons i have you on the

00:13:02   show is stuff that's drawn into a layer

00:13:05   back view is that right is not is not

00:13:09   doesn't get the sub-pixel entail

00:13:12   Jason that's correct i'm 10.7 yeah and

00:13:15   so you can see this here the easy way

00:13:17   that everybody can see it is with the

00:13:19   transparent menu bar that apple

00:13:21   introduced a couple of versions of Mac

00:13:22   os10 where you can see the half see your

00:13:26   desktop through your menubar their texts

00:13:29   in the menubar therefore it gets the non

00:13:32   sub-pixel anti-aliasing and on the

00:13:34   macbook retina MacBook Pro you can

00:13:36   really see the difference

00:13:38   I mean it looks good it certainly looks

00:13:39   better than any text on a non-retina Mac

00:13:43   but it doesn't look as good as the rest

00:13:45   of the text throughout Mac os10 on that

00:13:48   retina display so you okay well nice i

00:13:53   looked at you know I looked at your

00:13:55   reviewing and at the macworld one and i

00:14:00   loved it i mean the text look amazing

00:14:01   but I didn't you know I probably should

00:14:04   have managed to zoom in and checked it

00:14:05   alone but it didn't bother

00:14:07   do you find it grading like no because

00:14:11   almost everything is some pics on entire

00:14:13   list right so it's just you know it's

00:14:16   like it its it's not grading because

00:14:18   it's like looking at very very good text

00:14:21   and insanely very good text you can see

00:14:25   the difference you can see you can start

00:14:26   on the menu bar you can see pixels and

00:14:29   if you get close enough when you're

00:14:30   looking like inside like a safari window

00:14:32   forget it you mean like can get as close

00:14:35   as my it's really funny it's like I've

00:14:37   spent this week like not really using it

00:14:41   so much but like just like getting my

00:14:43   nose up almost up against the screen and

00:14:45   like trying to see the details and

00:14:47   that's what I think that's what

00:14:49   everybody does first time to get when

00:14:51   they just stick your face right up to

00:14:52   interest basically try to find pixel but

00:14:55   it really does with text especially it

00:14:57   is it to the naked eye you guys close

00:14:59   why you just don't see pixels even the

00:15:01   way you can when you get real close to

00:15:03   the iphone 4 and stuff like that right

00:15:05   well I mean so they don't do right think

00:15:07   you know this but they don't do

00:15:09   sub-pixel anti-aliasing on the devices

00:15:12   because you can change the orientation

00:15:13   and when you change the orientation you

00:15:16   can rely on the layout of the sub-pixels

00:15:19   the same way you can on desktop that was

00:15:21   so amazing because I swear to you that

00:15:23   was mine

00:15:23   question and i believe that we have to

00:15:25   I've asked you this privately like an

00:15:27   instant messenger years ago when you

00:15:29   you're my go-to guy for questions like

00:15:31   that that was that was my question is if

00:15:33   so why don't they do sub-pixel

00:15:35   anti-aliasing on right okay too so and

00:15:40   it's because it is so your answer is

00:15:42   more or less because it actually relies

00:15:44   on the order RGB obsessive pixels

00:15:47   exactly the physical layout to be

00:15:49   picture there you know going from left

00:15:51   to right on your scheme screen it's our

00:15:53   gbr gbr gbr gb and you can rely on that

00:15:57   when you draw on your your shape your

00:15:59   letter shape but now flip that so that

00:16:03   it's in vertical orientation and it's no

00:16:06   longer the same way right

00:16:07   it's like it's RGB going downwards

00:16:10   rather than going across so the

00:16:12   algorithm has to change and it's

00:16:13   basically just eat since you can't rely

00:16:16   on lay out a bit where the subjects was

00:16:18   going to be you can't really use the

00:16:21   same algorithm and since the phone is so

00:16:23   high density they just don't water even

00:16:25   the original phone with high-density so

00:16:28   one of the changes in mountain lion

00:16:30   which references back to what i was

00:16:32   saying before if one of the new things

00:16:34   in mountain lion is that text in layer

00:16:37   back views now gets the sub-pixel

00:16:41   anti-aliasing yes and this has been a

00:16:44   long time and it works right well it's

00:16:46   not an easy thing to do because I'm like

00:16:50   a layer is I'm trying to get at it

00:16:54   describe it but in so if you think of

00:16:57   and like you know I mean paper and you

00:17:00   drawn something you can overlay it on

00:17:01   something else you can see what's below

00:17:02   it right and basically later like that

00:17:05   you draw something on a layer and then

00:17:06   you place it over something else you can

00:17:08   see what's below it and you can posit

00:17:10   the scene with it with a series of these

00:17:12   sort of transparent layers now the issue

00:17:15   with anti-aliasing text is that you need

00:17:18   to auntie Lu set against the background

00:17:20   so if you're drawing text into a

00:17:23   transparent layer as you're drawing the

00:17:26   text you don't know what the background

00:17:28   is going to be as a background could be

00:17:30   animated it could be animated exactly

00:17:32   could be a lot of things so it's not

00:17:35   obvious had

00:17:37   it correctly antialiased text so they're

00:17:44   fixing this mountain lion that there's

00:17:46   change the way they handled entering the

00:17:48   text so that it does actually managed to

00:17:50   anti-alias in later back to you which is

00:17:54   amazing because I think we'll talk about

00:17:57   later but you know i'm working on mac

00:17:59   app and then we add a plan to make

00:18:03   anti-alias i lay back text work and it

00:18:06   was going to be a huge pain in the ass

00:18:07   to do but mountain lion just solves a

00:18:09   problem for us if we don't need to tell

00:18:11   me to worry about that we can come back

00:18:12   to that later

00:18:13   and so one of the things and weird

00:18:17   another thing that we're going to come

00:18:18   back to later but while we're on the

00:18:20   anti-aliasing i should mention it is

00:18:21   with the microsoft surface tablets which

00:18:25   they're saying with their displays

00:18:27   they're saying they have these cleartype

00:18:28   HD and cleartype full HD displays and

00:18:33   clear type is Microsoft's name for their

00:18:36   anti-aliasing algorithm yeah and it

00:18:39   again

00:18:39   anybody who's a nerd and really sweats

00:18:41   these details will know that if you look

00:18:43   at anti-alias text on mac and the same

00:18:46   fonts like on a webpage say on Windows

00:18:49   it looks different because they have a

00:18:50   different anti-aliasing algorithm which

00:18:52   some people prefers other people don't

00:18:54   but they call it clear type right it's

00:18:56   the original right so pixel

00:18:58   anti-aliasing actually i believe that is

00:19:00   true but i like what i think was did

00:19:04   something on the Apple too but that's

00:19:05   one of the things that stuck out to me

00:19:07   was it everything from here exactly one

00:19:11   of the things that that struck me that

00:19:13   with the announcement was exactly what

00:19:16   we just talked about was that that on

00:19:18   the iOS devices you don't get sub-pixel

00:19:21   anti-aliasing because you're going to

00:19:24   rotate the display they can order it so

00:19:25   then they say these things have clear

00:19:27   type displays and I wonder how they did

00:19:28   that and I believe what what were you

00:19:32   gonna say I just redefined the term yeah

00:19:35   that they're not really doing it has

00:19:37   nothing to do with the old cleartype

00:19:38   they're just reusing the nation

00:19:40   in the same way that they're reusing

00:19:41   surface right what you mean there's a

00:19:44   nuclear type just means a higher density

00:19:45   display that's my take on all right you

00:19:47   ever see the old surface the big

00:19:49   tabletop thing in person no I did once i

00:19:53   saw one up at Drexel University of a

00:19:55   couple of about a year ago I think

00:19:57   sometime in the last year I was up there

00:19:59   to do a little talk and a guy Ranna like

00:20:03   a robotics engineering lab that invited

00:20:05   me to do a little talk to your needle

00:20:07   adelphia and they had a surface and let

00:20:10   me play with it for a while and I could

00:20:12   not believe how lag it was it was like

00:20:14   giving latency is just dreadful like

00:20:16   they had it and they were doing some

00:20:18   cool stuff with that they were doing

00:20:19   some really cool stuff with mapping with

00:20:23   it like the grad students but they were

00:20:25   just getting killed by the latency was

00:20:27   just deadly I'm even if we I think even

00:20:30   pre ipad you know everybody would agree

00:20:32   with it was like he by any standards but

00:20:34   compared to what everybody was used to

00:20:36   it was it was horrendous

00:20:38   yeah I don't know that it would have

00:20:40   taken off regardless i mean it was sort

00:20:42   of i was gonna take off

00:20:43   that's right it's it was kind of

00:20:45   expensive is big and bulky and how many

00:20:47   people need that kind of stuff I thought

00:20:49   it was a cool idea is pretty interesting

00:20:50   but you don't want that ship the same as

00:20:52   the iPhone so right i cannot believe you

00:20:57   know what though I think long-term knows

00:20:58   somebody is going to make something like

00:21:00   that you know

00:21:01   yeah I mean you know that 10 years from

00:21:03   now wooden Apple have something that

00:21:05   size we're running iOS that you could

00:21:07   get me there's maybe maybe I think it's

00:21:08   an interesting form factor I think you

00:21:10   can do things in a shared space and

00:21:12   collaborate with it in in an interesting

00:21:14   way right it would be like to have

00:21:16   nailed it but I think they've got

00:21:17   they've got an idea that's pretty decent

00:21:19   it would be to iOS like what the mac pro

00:21:22   is to Mac os10 like something for video

00:21:25   that they're only going to sell a very

00:21:27   small sliver compared to the mass market

00:21:29   but that you could charge a lot of money

00:21:30   and the people who need it really want

00:21:32   right

00:21:33   you know I can see their kind of thing

00:21:35   in a store right totally or or you know

00:21:38   there are all sorts of retail type

00:21:41   situation and I think our classroom or

00:21:43   something like that

00:21:44   yeah take a shared space through very

00:21:48   flexible workspace not to mention it's

00:21:50   actually flat you can put stuff on it

00:21:52   crap

00:21:52   which is you know opens up a bunch of

00:21:54   other interesting tips possibilities

00:21:56   with the subject is all anti listen I

00:22:00   know one way that everybody i always see

00:22:02   it is when people are dicking around

00:22:03   with CSS and using like transparent

00:22:07   layers in CSS then instantly takes the

00:22:10   text into the non sub-pixel anti-aliased

00:22:14   right thing so I wonder if that gets

00:22:17   fixed automatically now on 10-8 i don't

00:22:20   know i have to look at that matters it's

00:22:22   about the WebKit guys will make it work

00:22:24   if the system supports that I bet they

00:22:26   do

00:22:26   edid see some pretty fancy stuff so you

00:22:32   know it's interesting I mean have you

00:22:33   seen it have you do you know any

00:22:34   candidate on that thing you know what

00:22:36   but I'm thinking after I'm i was

00:22:38   thinking that I should though but that's

00:22:40   what i was thinking before I do finish

00:22:41   my review i'm going to you know and I

00:22:43   don't know I feel a little bad putting a

00:22:46   beta on it a lot Apple owner but I feel

00:22:48   like it even if it goes bad I can always

00:22:50   just reinstall lion on the thing

00:22:52   well I mean if you get with the USB

00:22:53   Drive just love that and put it on that

00:22:57   yeah yeah i guess so i don't know there

00:22:59   might be I don't know and I think

00:23:02   they're gonna care that you put that

00:23:04   really don't think they're going to give

00:23:05   you

00:23:06   yeah I don't think she'll but i do feel

00:23:07   i would feel a little guilty mail it

00:23:09   back to him like if it were breaking I

00:23:11   go exactly it's like a brick

00:23:13   thanks hon thanks man

00:23:16   no I do and I don't know iight i to III

00:23:19   tried to take good care of all my stuff

00:23:21   i mean like my knock on wood my iphone

00:23:24   4s is still like an in perfect shape but

00:23:27   I with the Apple review stuff i take

00:23:29   extra good care of it and i'm sure they

00:23:31   actually don't care like if you mailed

00:23:33   it back and it was like nicked up and

00:23:35   add things on and stuff what do they

00:23:36   care i mean i forgot to give the things

00:23:38   out like candy but i feel like i don't

00:23:41   know if it's it's like the sense of

00:23:43   politeness like when you're in somebody

00:23:44   else's home you know like you you you're

00:23:46   more careful as careful as you are in

00:23:48   your own home not to put your shoes on

00:23:50   on the furniture

00:23:51   I'm twice as careful and somebody else's

00:23:53   home and that's what I feel like when

00:23:55   I'm using the apple of existence right

00:23:57   well I mean if it makes you feel any

00:23:58   better I wouldn't trust anything that

00:24:01   you emailed me back to being in your

00:24:02   home for awhile either i just you know

00:24:04   things going right in the furnace right

00:24:06   is done with it

00:24:08   that is true object that is what they do

00:24:10   to that I mail it back to them and they

00:24:12   just like white gloves they just turn it

00:24:14   up and put it into an incinerator

00:24:18   I'm bed they do the sensible thing to do

00:24:20   right right into whatever the whatever

00:24:23   they recycle the stuff you know somebody

00:24:26   said you know anything about this just

00:24:28   some sort of jumping all over the place

00:24:29   you but uh there was the thing about the

00:24:31   the macbook pro not being upgradeable

00:24:35   and and that you can't get into a blonde

00:24:37   that I fix-it guy he also said he talked

00:24:39   to his pals in the recycling industry

00:24:41   and that the way it's all glued together

00:24:44   means that that they don't know how it

00:24:46   could be recycled

00:24:47   I thought that was nonsense because I

00:24:49   thought if you wanted to recycle an

00:24:51   apple product that you're not using

00:24:52   anymore you just go into the apple store

00:24:53   and say here i'm done with this thing

00:24:54   and then it they just take it that's

00:24:56   their problem

00:24:57   ya done it i I've died I haven't done in

00:25:00   a while I sort of let a lot of my old

00:25:02   Apple kit that i own pile up but i was

00:25:04   thinking I'd it actually reminded me

00:25:06   that maybe i should bring some of this

00:25:07   stuff in like do I really need a powerpc

00:25:09   powerbook anymore

00:25:11   probably not meeting maybe we get me

00:25:15   dude shut up and stop calling macbook

00:25:17   pros powerbooks if I actually but I is

00:25:20   what I thought is it's not your problem

00:25:21   you don't have to go it's not like you

00:25:23   buy a macbook pro and when you want to

00:25:25   recycle it you've got to go and pried

00:25:26   apart with a screwdriver and separate

00:25:28   the aluminum from the glass and all that

00:25:30   you just give it to happen to their

00:25:31   problem

00:25:32   yeah and I mean I gotta you know yet to

00:25:34   be born again and you know just takes

00:25:36   one he calls up his recycling buddy be

00:25:39   like hey you know how to recycle isn't

00:25:41   as a no well it's not like you can't

00:25:45   figure it out in audiences he's asked

00:25:48   you silly that whole scandal is

00:25:50   ridiculous to me i don't understand it

00:25:52   at all and so it's designing you know I

00:25:56   used to build my own pieces and stuff

00:25:57   and that i'm still that's over right

00:26:00   time i get inland I can't believe people

00:26:02   at the thing that gets me is that

00:26:04   everybody acts each time like it's a new

00:26:05   story right i remember you used to be

00:26:09   able to buy even on a Mac it wasn't even

00:26:12   just a pc thing you could buy processor

00:26:14   upgrades right like that magazines were

00:26:17   macworld was full of it was a huge thing

00:26:19   because your computer did cost it costs

00:26:22   so much back then like you by like a new

00:26:24   mac to see I and 1991 and it was like

00:26:28   five grand and then like two years later

00:26:32   you could buy like a a cpu upgrade for

00:26:35   nine hundred dollars rather than buy a

00:26:37   new four thousand dollars a computer

00:26:39   well that was actually you know it's

00:26:41   pretty pretty reasonable thing to do you

00:26:43   know I mean I i don't think i ever

00:26:45   bought this processor upgrade but it was

00:26:47   always nice to know that you could write

00:26:49   and I think that's sort of the comfort

00:26:51   is what some people are missing but i

00:26:54   think he nailed it with it with the the

00:26:56   price when it's 5,000 bucks that's a lot

00:26:59   of money trying to keep it going you

00:27:01   know but when like like whats this red

00:27:03   Mack 2211 i think it starts to 2020 $200

00:27:08   us i mean which you know that's a chunk

00:27:10   of change but it's less than half of

00:27:14   what look it look at good max across you

00:27:17   and it's good gonna last longer and it's

00:27:20   a lot more usable and register I just

00:27:23   really don't understand it if you didn't

00:27:26   see this coming after the ipod shipped

00:27:28   without you know double-a batteries i

00:27:31   don't want to say it's been like 10

00:27:33   years now right and you do pay a little

00:27:35   bit of a premium but it's not as

00:27:37   anywhere near as much as it used to be

00:27:39   like seif forget who priced it out i

00:27:41   think of it i think it was i think was

00:27:43   Marcos podcast last week but pressure

00:27:47   was Marcone and Dan talking about it

00:27:50   where if you if you'd upgrade if you buy

00:27:56   the old 15-inch macbook pro the new old

00:28:00   one non-retina one and in the build

00:28:03   order upgrade to an SSD and instead of

00:28:07   spinning hard drive it it almost comes

00:28:10   out to like more than the price of the

00:28:12   macbook pro with retina display that has

00:28:14   one built in and even if you like go to

00:28:17   OWCA or one of those places and by the

00:28:20   SSD yourself so you're not paying the

00:28:23   Apple premium for it it still comes out

00:28:25   about even like it's actually not that

00:28:28   much of a premium for it

00:28:30   lets you know obviously I think that

00:28:31   they've got these things packed in a way

00:28:33   that you know it

00:28:35   there really are engineering trade-offs

00:28:36   for that's the other thing that gets me

00:28:38   is that people who make this assumption

00:28:39   that Apple's doing this out of that of

00:28:41   upgrades might and it's not about

00:28:44   engineering problems i mean i can't

00:28:47   prove that it is i can't prove that

00:28:49   gluing the i forget what include

00:28:52   something is glued in there but whatever

00:28:54   it is that's glued rather than using

00:28:56   screws i think it might be the SSD I

00:28:58   can't prove that that's an engineering

00:29:00   thing and that they're solving a real

00:29:02   problem and that the not having little

00:29:04   screw mounts makes it even thinner than

00:29:06   it could be but I'm that's what i would

00:29:08   bet that they're solving an engineering

00:29:10   problem and that bet that to you

00:29:13   I mean it why

00:29:18   like what why would they bother it like

00:29:21   there-there Apple things about the

00:29:23   product there I don't think they'd spend

00:29:27   a lot of time thinking about how to

00:29:28   screw random people that want to upgrade

00:29:30   their SSD this right does it drive don't

00:29:34   you finish first you finish hers was

00:29:38   gonna say yeah I think it's a byproduct

00:29:39   that people can't mess with these things

00:29:43   rather than the like an intent right I'd

00:29:47   and I don't think it's any coincidence

00:29:48   that as the devices get thinner and

00:29:52   lighter that's when these trade-offs are

00:29:54   made right right it's the air in its the

00:29:58   air that that you can't replace the you

00:30:00   know that the ram is soldered on the

00:30:02   motherboard and edits on the 13-inch

00:30:04   macbook pro which still has a

00:30:05   traditional form factor

00:30:07   there's still a little screw panel you

00:30:08   can take off and get it out and it's

00:30:10   when the macbook pro went to this

00:30:12   quarter introduction and height that

00:30:15   that they switched that I mean I think

00:30:17   this I think the reason they have the

00:30:20   old Mac the old-new macros and this one

00:30:23   is it you know this is basically a

00:30:25   shipping and was a prototype but it's a

00:30:28   it's the next street is the next

00:30:31   generation of stuff like when they ship

00:30:32   the air and it was just as one unique

00:30:35   sort of thing was a new approach

00:30:38   I think this retina mac book pro is the

00:30:40   same kind of thing I would

00:30:41   ship this product we're gonna basically

00:30:45   it's the it's showing the way forward

00:30:49   it's like this is the way everything's

00:30:50   gonna go we're going to ship this one

00:30:52   we're gonna be eventually doing this

00:30:54   sort of aesthetic and approach to the

00:30:57   product across the entire line let me

00:31:02   take a break here and thank our first

00:31:04   sponsor do you use fantastic alki I do

00:31:09   actually find it in fantastic all

00:31:12   fantastical is our first sponsor and and

00:31:16   the thing that always strikes me about

00:31:17   fantastical is this

00:31:19   in the old days I'm talking way back

00:31:21   like beginning Mac os10 i think but

00:31:25   certainly the mac OS 9 era Apple stayed

00:31:27   away from making the apps that you use

00:31:31   on a daily basis we didn't even ship mac

00:31:33   OS didn't even ship with an email client

00:31:35   the old days didn't have calendar didn't

00:31:36   have an address book and eventually that

00:31:39   I think that became untenable and they

00:31:40   had to you know sort of everybody assume

00:31:42   that your system is going to come with

00:31:43   stuff like that so the good news was

00:31:45   well there's a system-wide calendar and

00:31:47   address book

00:31:48   the bad news is that meant that

00:31:50   third-party address books and calendars

00:31:52   really really the sort of kind of got

00:31:54   wiped out because they sort of their

00:31:57   business model was based on the idea

00:31:59   that there's an opportunity there and it

00:32:02   was taken away

00:32:04   well I I i think some funnies happened

00:32:06   over the years though we're with some of

00:32:08   these apps and I think I Cal is the

00:32:10   first and foremost I think that's on

00:32:11   everybody's hit list is one of the war

00:32:13   steps apple makes a huge opportunity for

00:32:17   third-party apps because it stinks i

00:32:20   mean i have never heard anybody and

00:32:22   anybody get started in Iran about ical

00:32:24   I've never heard anybody stand up and

00:32:26   defend it and say boy I really like that

00:32:28   count fantastical is a is a calendar app

00:32:32   for the mac and instead of trying to do

00:32:35   the same thing as i can but with a

00:32:36   better interface it is like a complete

00:32:38   rethinking of how you interact with a

00:32:42   calendar on your Mac it's a little thing

00:32:44   that lives up in your menubar and you

00:32:46   click it or you have a little lat

00:32:48   you can assign a keyboard shortcut to

00:32:50   drop it down just a little skinny panel

00:32:52   that drops down from your menu bar shows

00:32:54   you this month

00:32:55   under eye and it shows you in a little

00:32:59   list today tomorrow the next day next

00:33:01   three days three four days of your

00:33:03   events so here's some here's a calendar

00:33:05   for the month

00:33:06   here's your events and this is the part

00:33:09   that gets me because this is the thing

00:33:10   that's the worst about ical is when you

00:33:12   want to make a new event you just type

00:33:14   in a text field in plain language and it

00:33:17   just parses it and as its parsing it

00:33:20   it uses this this great interface to

00:33:22   sort of show you what it thinks you're

00:33:25   typing so if you just type talk show

00:33:29   thursday 1pm it just knows that that the

00:33:33   event name is talk show thursday it

00:33:36   noses this next thursday and you type 1

00:33:38   pianos you mean 1pm and hit return and

00:33:42   boom there it is a new event on your

00:33:44   calendar so instead of like the way I

00:33:45   characterizing not starting that's every

00:33:47   time where it's like you type the name

00:33:49   and then you go over to the field and

00:33:50   you pick a month and you go over to the

00:33:52   next field and you pick a day and every

00:33:55   single thing is like tab to a new field

00:33:56   tab to a new field just one field you

00:34:00   type in plaintext it does an amazing job

00:34:02   guessing what you're doing and visually

00:34:06   it's a beautiful app it is so convenient

00:34:08   so it's great for two things that I

00:34:10   Cal's totally crap for one what's going

00:34:14   on what's on my schedule today tomorrow

00:34:16   the next few days

00:34:17   easy easy obvious interface for it and

00:34:20   for new event creation you just can't

00:34:23   beat it

00:34:23   i would i would buy it even if it didn't

00:34:25   even have a view i would buy fantastical

00:34:27   just for the text field for creating new

00:34:30   events I think you should want an ad i

00:34:33   think it didn't because it's an

00:34:36   unconventional app in that it sits in

00:34:39   the menu bar rather than having a main

00:34:40   window that's a good point i do think

00:34:43   and I you know what I think the other

00:34:44   reason that I don't think it would win a

00:34:46   DA is the internal politics of it is

00:34:48   that it makes ical look so bad Frank

00:34:50   exactly

00:34:51   I'm you know it's a good a calibrator it

00:34:54   really is it's it's it's going to give

00:34:57   it a GD a right and so there's other

00:34:59   ones you know i'll just mention like

00:35:00   there's busy cow right and I mentioned a

00:35:03   competitor while talking about this week

00:35:05   sponsor because fantastic if you use

00:35:07   busy cal as

00:35:08   your ical replacement fantastical

00:35:10   integrates great with it the one good

00:35:12   thing about the apple/system is that

00:35:14   it's a system provided calendar store

00:35:16   like it works with your calendars that

00:35:18   you've set up and I count the same way

00:35:20   that busy so if you're busy Cal user

00:35:21   which I am I don't use ical for anything

00:35:23   if I need a big full screen

00:35:26   here's a you know take up the whole

00:35:27   screen thing i use busy count but

00:35:28   fantastic out works great with busy cow

00:35:31   right but i would buy it just for the

00:35:34   the the input such a great app and

00:35:39   here's the best thing the best thing is

00:35:40   they're having I then this this one

00:35:42   thing about this doesn't make any sense

00:35:44   they're having a back-to-school

00:35:45   promotion now this i don't understand

00:35:47   it's it's June my kid just got out of

00:35:49   school last week

00:35:51   well did you know they don't know

00:35:53   anything about dates those guys

00:35:55   yeah I don't know that there have it i

00:35:56   think they got the calendar on but that

00:35:59   they're having a back-to-school

00:36:00   promotion and it's fifty percent off

00:36:03   well so everybody can get you can buy

00:36:05   fantastical for 999 its regularly 1999

00:36:09   you can get it now for 999 I think

00:36:11   you're nuts if you don't have this app

00:36:13   and you don't even have to take my word

00:36:15   for it because they have a 14-day free

00:36:16   trial man just do it

00:36:20   yeah I don't just do honestly it's with

00:36:22   ten bucks just to check out like if you

00:36:24   have any interest in sort of a I or

00:36:27   pausing anything just pay the 10 bucks

00:36:30   type a few things into that field and

00:36:31   see how good job is is it it's terrific

00:36:34   yeah so you can just google fantastical

00:36:35   go to the website or you can just go to

00:36:37   flex a bit fle x ibit s.com and check it

00:36:42   out

00:36:43   14-day free trial 999 back-to-school

00:36:46   promotion in the middle of june is a

00:36:49   fantastic at my thanks to them for

00:36:50   sponsoring the show this week so back to

00:36:55   WC yeah I have two more things I want to

00:36:58   talk about from WWDC and I got a couple

00:37:00   of things to all right well one of them

00:37:02   is is the pull to refresh that they've

00:37:05   added to iOS yeah which is something

00:37:08   I've been hoping they would do but the

00:37:10   wondering if they never would write out

00:37:13   of pride

00:37:14   well two factors there's two factors

00:37:17   there one is pride

00:37:18   I well I would say three actually

00:37:22   pride obvious pneus and patents right so

00:37:30   pride is that it was not invented by

00:37:33   them it was invented by lauren Richter

00:37:35   for his 14 Tweety his you know which is

00:37:39   now really in doing that which is now

00:37:42   did been right well now it's the

00:37:45   official twitter client now it's not the

00:37:46   same

00:37:47   that's not that's not Tweety now but he

00:37:50   invented for tweeting so pride would be

00:37:53   well he invented it and it was different

00:37:55   than anything apple had come up with and

00:37:59   so maybe they would their pride would

00:38:00   keep them from adopting something that

00:38:02   came from the third-party obvious is

00:38:06   that and this is the day I think the

00:38:08   worst argument and I don't really think

00:38:09   even Apple would go for it is that it's

00:38:12   there I OS favors the visual over the

00:38:16   implied and gestures and iOS are almost

00:38:19   always for things that there's a visual

00:38:21   way to do so like you know the shortcuts

00:38:26   that take gestures there's usually a

00:38:27   button that you could tap to do it too

00:38:30   but that doesn't really hold water

00:38:32   because nobody's saying that they should

00:38:34   get rid of the reload button and only

00:38:36   have pulled over fresh they should just

00:38:38   add it as something else and it doesn't

00:38:40   take anything away

00:38:41   well have you seen what they did do I

00:38:44   didn't but I don't have it in front of

00:38:46   me right now they did exactly that they

00:38:48   got rid of the refresh button only that

00:38:51   progression male I didn't notice that

00:38:54   yeah which I find weird i would

00:38:55   personally I would keep the button

00:38:57   yeah yeah I would've kept the button to

00:38:59   button certain anybody know and you know

00:39:02   it was so I'm thinking that most i think

00:39:07   i'm thinking that their line of thinking

00:39:10   is that most people have push email like

00:39:14   it's you don't actually need to refresh

00:39:15   your email that much

00:39:17   by default just come in mm so getting

00:39:22   the buttons not that big a deal and if

00:39:24   you want to pull to refresh well you've

00:39:25   got it right

00:39:26   that's good because I've said this

00:39:28   before you know and and even now because

00:39:31   on my main phone i still haven't

00:39:32   upgraded to 6 beta but

00:39:34   I because of pull-to-refresh and how

00:39:37   many other apps third-party apps I use

00:39:38   that have adopted it I i pulled a

00:39:41   refreshing mail every time i'm reading

00:39:43   mail on my phone every time I just do it

00:39:46   I can't help but think that that's why

00:39:47   they finally broke down and an added it

00:39:49   is that they were doing it to probably

00:39:51   and it's just it's just a good idea just

00:39:53   makes sense and you know what they

00:39:55   didn't just added to mail it's actually

00:39:56   added to the underlying frameworks any

00:39:59   table you can have a pull to refresh now

00:40:01   right which is a big deal i think it's a

00:40:05   sort of it to second official embrace

00:40:07   it's not just that they've added it to a

00:40:08   nap it's officially embrace that

00:40:10   sprinkler system and now they did in a

00:40:12   kind of a weird way it is that little

00:40:13   animation thing like it looks like a

00:40:16   water droplet the eastwood pull apart or

00:40:18   like maybe like a piece of putty that

00:40:22   you have stretching and then you want to

00:40:23   you reach a breaking point and that

00:40:26   yeah and then it yeah and like you said

00:40:28   with cable last week it it triggers when

00:40:31   you drink that the party rather than

00:40:33   when you will like let go of me I'm

00:40:35   right which is a bit weird but the other

00:40:38   thing I kind of find a bit weird is it

00:40:40   Lawrence implementation and pretty much

00:40:42   all the other ones have some text

00:40:44   telling you what's going to happen and

00:40:47   the apple one just has this party

00:40:49   you don't mean it doesn't say like

00:40:51   pull-to-refresh sure it doesn't say

00:40:53   what's going to happen something you

00:40:55   know right they've actually made it less

00:40:57   obvious

00:40:58   yeah yeah it's not clear what's gonna

00:41:00   happen when you break that thing right

00:41:03   with Lauren's it was as soon as you

00:41:05   pulled the view you're at the top of the

00:41:07   view and as soon as you pull it down a

00:41:08   little bit it would say like hey keep

00:41:11   going you can pull the refresh me and I

00:41:15   actually chatted briefly with Lauren

00:41:17   about it just a I I thought it was his

00:41:20   reaction to it was exactly what I

00:41:21   expected but i just wanted to check to

00:41:24   make sure i want to say hey to you is it

00:41:27   like a thrill you kind of honored or you

00:41:29   feel ripped off and he's like thrilled

00:41:31   he thinks it's absolutely great that

00:41:33   Apple is is putting it in the system now

00:41:36   but like us hehe dis you know he doesn't

00:41:40   think that the new all you have to do is

00:41:43   pull and not let go that he did he did

00:41:46   he likes his implementation

00:41:47   better right so I so this is a good

00:41:50   discussion we had last week I don't

00:41:52   think you were there but there's a

00:41:53   couple of us a table in Moscow knee in

00:41:56   between sessions were talking about

00:41:58   did Apple make that change so that it

00:42:02   happens only when you after only by

00:42:04   pulling not by pulling letting go

00:42:06   did they do that out of pride like like

00:42:09   they've convinced themselves like now we

00:42:11   you know we didn't do it before but now

00:42:13   we've come up with a way to make pull

00:42:15   refresh right or is it a patent thing

00:42:19   that the patent that twitter has on

00:42:21   polar of fresh apples implementation

00:42:23   doesn't violate the letter of it that

00:42:28   knows combination i don't know I to me

00:42:31   and it might just be my general version

00:42:34   like repulsion I'm repulsed by software

00:42:37   patents on silly things that I say no

00:42:40   it's not the patent thing but I forget

00:42:42   who it was that it was Matthew panza

00:42:44   Reno was at the table and I think he was

00:42:46   like reading he pulled up Twitter's

00:42:48   patent application on it and and those

00:42:51   pants I mean I just think I get two

00:42:53   seconds into him and I just fall asleep

00:42:54   i'm out i'm just it's like it's it's

00:42:58   like a sedative

00:42:58   it just puts me right out because of the

00:43:00   way they're written but he was reading

00:43:01   it and his you know layman's reading of

00:43:04   it was that you

00:43:05   you know that the patent describes pull

00:43:06   down and let go and that if you you know

00:43:09   that the apples actually on the good on

00:43:11   you know so if that's actually the case

00:43:12   that they had lawyers who said you know

00:43:14   you've got to do this then I feel feel

00:43:16   bad for the engineers who did it if it's

00:43:19   because they think that this is better

00:43:21   and you're out there listening please

00:43:23   please please change it to two more

00:43:25   closely follow the treaty model before

00:43:28   iOS 6 finishes I really think that that

00:43:31   this is not an improvement

00:43:32   well this is not just me all right it's

00:43:34   going to be absent we're going to be

00:43:36   doing that right so I'm I mean it could

00:43:41   be the patents but it they have a lot of

00:43:46   patent fights right i don't think that

00:43:48   they intentionally avoids doing what

00:43:50   they think is great to it you know to

00:43:53   avoid up to avoid patent they think

00:43:55   they're constantly having patent but

00:43:57   it's okay one thing that I think is

00:43:59   irrelevant irrelevant

00:44:01   his Twitter's promise not to use

00:44:04   software patents yeah aggressively which

00:44:09   is admirable

00:44:10   I'm glad they did it's certainly better

00:44:12   it's better than nothing and it's you

00:44:14   know it's an admirable stands for the

00:44:15   company to take but i think it's

00:44:17   irrelevant because there is zero chance

00:44:18   that Apple's lawyers give two craps

00:44:20   about what Twitter is quote/unquote

00:44:22   promised exactly

00:44:23   yeah i mean i'd i'd believe them exactly

00:44:26   i think there but that doesn't mean it

00:44:28   it's not legally binding and handling

00:44:31   soon

00:44:31   exactly and whose you know you know if a

00:44:34   new CEO comes into twitter he doesn't

00:44:36   give two craps with the old CEO set

00:44:38   right well exactly i mean used to say

00:44:40   that Google is my Twitter and then

00:44:41   reinstall the pants to New gabble

00:44:43   exactly whatever right

00:44:45   yeah alright so what are you get so I

00:44:50   got a couple of things that I just want

00:44:52   to talk about um so you had a bit

00:44:54   regarding at possible tall screen iphone

00:44:58   yes right and you suppose that they were

00:45:03   pitch it at WWDC by i'm having the

00:45:08   notifications sort of push down the view

00:45:11   tune and they would encourage developers

00:45:14   to make their layout more flexible

00:45:17   vertically right right so one thing they

00:45:21   did add which nobody's really talked

00:45:23   about much is they've added an auto

00:45:26   layout system to iOS where you can

00:45:30   describe the relationship between

00:45:31   various controls and how they react to a

00:45:33   screen size changes so it's nice now

00:45:36   like that you can sort of say well this

00:45:38   you know this button should be at the

00:45:41   end of this text field and with you know

00:45:43   eight pixels in between it and they

00:45:46   should both be clapped the right-hand

00:45:47   side of the screen so that we need

00:45:48   change the orientation all of the

00:45:51   control certainly out nicely right it's

00:45:53   like a way of saying these things should

00:45:55   be at the bottom

00:45:56   these things should be at the top and

00:45:57   you don't have to define how wide the

00:46:00   middle is right yeah you just described

00:46:02   the relationships between the items and

00:46:05   basically they're like where they

00:46:07   respected the top and bottom left of the

00:46:09   bed or whatever so that's in ios6 now

00:46:14   that's like seems like that would be

00:46:17   kind of handy for you know another

00:46:19   device with a different shape screen

00:46:21   right or yeah or an app that doesn't

00:46:24   know the size of the screen

00:46:26   exactly because for you know it there

00:46:28   are a hundred million iphones out there

00:46:32   with this size that the current size

00:46:34   screen 1.12 one point that the 322

00:46:37   aspect ratio iphone screen so even if

00:46:40   it's true that the next iPhone has a

00:46:42   wider taller whatever you want to

00:46:44   describe it screen it's not like apps

00:46:47   will switch to the new dimension they're

00:46:50   going to have to support both but all

00:46:52   right exactly and the auto layout stuff

00:46:55   that's one of those that's a technology

00:46:57   that started on Mac os10 that's not new

00:46:59   its new to ios6 but it's not new to Coco

00:47:03   know they edited in Lyon right and

00:47:05   that's you know and it's useful for the

00:47:08   mac obviously because windows most

00:47:10   windows are arbitrarily resizable right

00:47:13   yeah but it's interesting that they're

00:47:15   taking that like a technology designed

00:47:18   for arbitrarily sizable windows and

00:47:20   bring it to a device with a fixed size

00:47:21   screen right which you know makes me

00:47:24   think that at the very least they're

00:47:26   building in a system that will be able

00:47:29   to support various sized screens it at

00:47:32   some point in the future right i don't i

00:47:33   don't want to play games and be coy with

00:47:35   the NDA on session contents but i will

00:47:40   say i haven't seen I didn't see the auto

00:47:42   layout sessions but there at like at the

00:47:44   top of my cue from the download list

00:47:46   from the videos that came out yesterday

00:47:47   or two days ago actually uh but I noted

00:47:51   that there was it wasn't just one there

00:47:52   was at least two it was like

00:47:54   introduction auto layout on iOS and then

00:47:56   there was an advanced auto layout on iOS

00:47:58   right you know actually checked and it's

00:48:00   here at the Auto layout was mentioned in

00:48:03   the canyon so yeah yeah and well and I

00:48:06   think that I don't think that the

00:48:07   session titles themselves

00:48:09   I mean and deny it i'm not going to

00:48:11   avoid talking about session times but i

00:48:14   don't think i think once the schedule

00:48:15   came out you can say what the schedules

00:48:18   you know what the you can say what the

00:48:20   sessions are I think the contents are

00:48:22   under NDA but i don't think that the

00:48:24   titles of the sessions are and it

00:48:26   yeah i mean i don't think anybody's

00:48:28   gonna raise too much for stink right

00:48:31   yeah so the other thing is Colonel level

00:48:36   aslr which is address space layout

00:48:38   randomization so when different when

00:48:42   libraries get loaded into into the

00:48:44   kernel they are placed in different

00:48:46   locations in memory so that if you have

00:48:50   an exploit code you can't you can't rely

00:48:54   on like a certain function being in a

00:48:56   certain place so it makes it harder to

00:48:58   exploit the colonel so that has you know

00:49:02   that two pretty big security step and

00:49:04   I'm kind of interested to see how that

00:49:06   affects jailbreaking on ios6 I that's

00:49:10   interesting and I really was wondering

00:49:12   long-term about that because Mac os10

00:49:14   his head that's another thing that came

00:49:16   to the mac first but i thought i saw and

00:49:19   i just i don't follow jailbreaking that

00:49:20   closely i thought i saw that somebody

00:49:22   had already issued a jailbreak for iOS 6

00:49:24   is that without the Joker's that not

00:49:25   true I'd I haven't seen i don't know i

00:49:27   just started with an interesting thing

00:49:29   to look into heaven

00:49:30   I mean maybe can still give you getting

00:49:34   up early enough before they start

00:49:35   happens but either way this is a good

00:49:38   security thing

00:49:39   yeah it's very good i've never seen any

00:49:42   is always seems like whenever i see like

00:49:44   i could guy like Charlie Miller right

00:49:49   you know like at one of the absolute top

00:49:51   mac OS at third party security guys out

00:49:55   there like what his advice is all I SLR

00:49:58   is that right aslr get address space

00:50:01   layout randomization is at the top of

00:50:04   his list of things apple could do to

00:50:07   improve iOS right and so they did it

00:50:09   which is cool right

00:50:11   and there's another in other words if

00:50:12   you find and exploit a buffer overflow

00:50:14   where you can inject code you have no

00:50:16   idea where it's going to go right

00:50:18   whereas before a SLR it would go to the

00:50:21   same place every time

00:50:22   exactly and you can build a plan from

00:50:24   there exactly so this makes it a lot

00:50:26   harder at least two you know to exploit

00:50:30   about for overflow right

00:50:31   and next up on my little sister is a

00:50:34   facetime over cellular accelerator

00:50:38   which happened go ahead well I haven't

00:50:39   seen anybody talk about that is anything

00:50:41   that's what's on my list I don't want

00:50:43   people are talking about it it there we

00:50:47   go we've talked about it why do you

00:50:48   think it's 4s and iphone or ipad 3 only

00:50:52   I think it's pretty obvious I i think

00:50:59   it's a marketing thing

00:51:00   yeah I think it's just just to make you

00:51:03   know that Dave and there's a pretty

00:51:05   complicated matrix of all of iOS 6

00:51:08   features and why what device gets what

00:51:11   right i don't really understand what

00:51:13   they're doing their bit but yeah I think

00:51:15   it's probably American thing plus you

00:51:16   know what it limits the number of

00:51:17   devices that can actually do it which

00:51:20   you know I I would be really interested

00:51:23   to know what the carrier's actually knew

00:51:25   this was coming

00:51:26   I did too they didn't know I message was

00:51:28   coming right we and I knew that African

00:51:31   and maybe it was cuz you forget but I

00:51:34   knew last year when they announced I

00:51:36   message I forget it forget who I talk to

00:51:39   about that but i got like it wasn't you

00:51:41   somebody yet now it was i I now and I

00:51:44   know who it was it was it was a good

00:51:46   source they didn't know and the

00:51:50   carrier's didn't know apple just did it

00:51:52   and then I can't help but think it's the

00:51:54   same here that they're not really giving

00:51:55   they're not really not really up to the

00:51:57   carrier's although we'll find out we

00:52:00   will find out when it ships whether it

00:52:04   you know like it's a thing like verizon

00:52:06   has it an AT&T dozen right i mean they

00:52:10   would have thought they'd said that

00:52:12   yeah I don't know what I do know is that

00:52:15   since day one it's worked with the sound

00:52:17   working we just turn it off right you

00:52:20   know and the the counter example would

00:52:22   be tethering which is definitely up to

00:52:25   carriers and they can bill you for it

00:52:27   but i don't think so because I i think

00:52:30   the reason is that carried that that's a

00:52:32   that tethering is like a known carrier

00:52:36   feature that they sell on other things

00:52:38   and it was probably like I don't know

00:52:40   that they built by whereas i did I can't

00:52:43   see AT&T adding a new bill to your

00:52:45   iphone so that you can do facetime

00:52:47   right it's like you can almost see their

00:52:50   deals with Apple mentioning tethering

00:52:52   and we got like specific terms rounded

00:52:55   alright then apple just goes invent

00:52:57   something new that wasn't in the

00:52:59   contract and cameras going to get

00:53:00   stiffed right i'm curious to see how

00:53:03   bandwidth-intensive it is

00:53:05   yeah right because you can definitely

00:53:06   run up against these the bandwidth

00:53:09   caption like these you know two

00:53:10   gigabytes is a lot for email and web

00:53:13   surfing

00:53:14   yeah i mean and i know there's somebody

00:53:15   out there listens to the show was like

00:53:17   all I do is email and web surfing and I

00:53:18   run up against the two gigabyte thing

00:53:20   every night I mean you can do it but it

00:53:23   really takes I think streaming video to

00:53:25   really kind of rack up against that

00:53:27   ya see against Marco easy to deal with

00:53:30   samar kosher market host at WC last

00:53:32   weekend was using his ipad 3g or LTE

00:53:35   instead of the hotel Wi-Fi and left here

00:53:38   he left his mac tethered overnight unit

00:53:41   and it downloaded the ad men season for

00:53:43   now which is like complete two gigabytes

00:53:46   so you can it be blue is holding

00:53:49   downloading it and the end that the

00:53:51   download didn't complete it back

00:53:53   I don't get it Oh pastor alex well you

00:53:59   have anything else i have one job but

00:54:01   it's on your list the passbook ideas on

00:54:05   my list so i think that's kind of the

00:54:07   sleeper hit actually you know and it's

00:54:14   funny like as and when you launch the

00:54:18   app now there's there's nothing in it

00:54:20   does one screen and it just says

00:54:22   password is for the stuff in your pocket

00:54:24   and it's got like tickets and all that

00:54:26   stuff but there's a big infrastructure

00:54:30   behind it and and I think telling me

00:54:35   they sort of be released a new API that

00:54:38   would allow apps to sort of inspect only

00:54:42   their own passes and as it is a bunch of

00:54:46   back and stuff so that you can send out

00:54:49   passes create new ones and update once

00:54:51   it to somebody is on the phone i think

00:54:54   it's interesting for iOS 6 and but i

00:54:56   think it's going to be really big in

00:54:57   ios7 yeah it's

00:55:00   it's aight i totally agree i really

00:55:02   think that it's and I'd better sometimes

00:55:04   i'm wrong about these things like when I

00:55:05   think that this is a sleeper hit or like

00:55:08   I call it like an iceberg feature where

00:55:10   you only see this little bit at the top

00:55:11   but the implications underneath are huge

00:55:15   yeah absolutely but i really do think

00:55:17   that I I think passbook is going to be a

00:55:18   big deal and I think long term it's

00:55:20   going to be on an awful lot of iphone

00:55:22   users first screen right because one of

00:55:27   them is that one of the things that I

00:55:29   really thought I I just keep thinking

00:55:30   about that i really think forestall was

00:55:32   exactly right in his pitching the

00:55:34   keynote that half the problem with these

00:55:37   apps that do the barcode scanning now is

00:55:40   that you're never going to have them on

00:55:41   your first or second screen you know

00:55:42   like your United you know because they

00:55:44   mean it and some people fly the same

00:55:46   airline every time and I you knowed i

00:55:48   fly same handful of airlines but it's

00:55:49   like you know who knows if you're you

00:55:52   know continental airlines app where the

00:55:53   hell is it I don't know and it's you

00:55:56   know it's the worst thing is you're up

00:55:58   there at the front of the line and

00:55:59   you're like page and up to screen aid of

00:56:01   your homescreen looking for the thing on

00:56:03   because they do some really clever i

00:56:07   don't even know how much as I a I guess

00:56:09   we can talk about it but I they're doing

00:56:10   some clever stuff though with passbook

00:56:12   we're based on your location it will

00:56:14   know like at right is that you open past

00:56:18   look when you're in a starbucks it's it

00:56:20   knows you're in a starbucks and our

00:56:22   guess is you're in a starbucks at the

00:56:23   very least and there's your starbucks

00:56:26   you don't even have to do not only do

00:56:27   you not have to look around for a

00:56:28   Starbucks app when you open passbook if

00:56:31   it knows you're in a starbucks it you

00:56:32   don't have to look for your starbucks

00:56:34   pass you don't even need to open bass

00:56:36   work it's raining home screen

00:56:38   I'll write that exactly right and just

00:56:40   hang on and it sits there like a

00:56:41   notification in starbucks you swipe it

00:56:44   up cuz you're on starbucks card like it

00:56:46   doesn't even launch the app it just

00:56:48   comes up with the home screen and you

00:56:49   can just scan it might then write one of

00:56:52   the interesting things about passbook is

00:56:54   that it can work in coordination with a

00:56:57   nap

00:56:58   yes then and do other things and you can

00:57:01   use the app to do things like make

00:57:02   changes like you know the example that

00:57:06   they gave would be like if it was a

00:57:08   airline then you wanted to change your

00:57:10   seat you could you need an app for that

00:57:13   I got up passbook what they call the

00:57:16   cards are they passes i'll pass itself

00:57:19   doesn't have code it's just information

00:57:21   so if you want to change stuff you've

00:57:22   got to have a nap but for a lot of cases

00:57:25   you don't even need a nap

00:57:27   there's a lot of situations where we're

00:57:29   developers or stores or you know

00:57:33   services can get support passbook and it

00:57:37   takes some code on there some server

00:57:39   code on their side obviously to do the

00:57:41   interaction but in terms of like what's

00:57:42   running on the phone all they have to do

00:57:44   is support passbook and it doesn't even

00:57:45   require a nap right i really think that

00:57:49   it's interesting and it it it's a it's a

00:57:54   very humble way to get started with this

00:57:57   where it's not like this boil the ocean

00:57:59   approach that I think I google has taken

00:58:01   with my google wallet where it's like

00:58:03   we're going to support this NFC stuff

00:58:05   and it in theory works everywhere and

00:58:08   practice works know where are always

00:58:11   know where well i mean i think it's an

00:58:12   approach where they're not relying on

00:58:15   the on the endpoint to have any specific

00:58:19   technology right right

00:58:21   they're just going to support what's

00:58:23   what people already do and build up in

00:58:25   there like so one interesting thing is

00:58:27   I'm let's say you've got your starbucks

00:58:29   card

00:58:30   you know you could you could probably

00:58:35   more apple could probably work out a way

00:58:38   that they could charge up your starbucks

00:58:40   card from your itunes account I I

00:58:43   thought about that too the only thing

00:58:45   about that is that when you win you any

00:58:47   of your money goes through your itunes

00:58:49   account apple takes thirty percent and I

00:58:51   so I don't see how that would work well

00:58:53   I mean they could work out a deal with

00:58:55   starbucks and they take less than thirty

00:58:57   percent right like you know it right

00:58:59   like maybe for the passbook stuff

00:59:00   they'll do it in a way that and and I

00:59:03   almost feel like they have to if there

00:59:04   and I think long-term everybody in other

00:59:06   been rumors about Apple getting in the

00:59:08   NFC and payments and stuff like that

00:59:09   that there's no for as much as they've

00:59:14   stuck to their guns across the board

00:59:16   music video apps books with this 7030

00:59:22   7030 in-app purchases 7030 everything

00:59:25   when money goes through

00:59:26   the store at 70 30 maybe the way that

00:59:29   they do it is that they don't really

00:59:31   it's not called going through this store

00:59:32   right like all the stuff that goes

00:59:34   through this store is 70 30 but the

00:59:37   payment processing is is not that it's

00:59:40   just hooked up your account so it goes

00:59:42   through the same credit card you've got

00:59:43   hooked up right but I you know they

00:59:46   would I I they could really you know

00:59:48   they could undercut everybody on that I

00:59:50   mean they could just charged with it you

00:59:52   know just to break even thing and just

00:59:54   have it as a reason to have an iphone

00:59:55   right i think there's they've had a lot

00:59:59   of credit cards

00:59:59   of credit cards

01:00:00   right and then they get you stuff to

01:00:02   they could even do it you can do it

01:00:03   wouldn't even just be charging up your

01:00:04   starbucks card you could do it like you

01:00:07   know if you're with the airline thing

01:00:09   where you've got a coach seat and you go

01:00:12   do your thing and you can maybe get a

01:00:13   notification that there's an upgrade

01:00:15   available you know the business class or

01:00:18   or first class or something like that

01:00:19   and you just do it in the app and it

01:00:21   goes through your iTunes Store thing you

01:00:24   don't even have to sit there and follow

01:00:25   around with credit cards or something

01:00:27   like that

01:00:27   yeah yeah exactly like I think we've got

01:00:30   a good pitch for businesses which is

01:00:31   there's less friction alright and are

01:00:34   you could you know you could even buy

01:00:37   you know like when you have to buy your

01:00:39   drink or a sandwich on the pond the

01:00:41   flight you know you could just do it

01:00:42   through the phone may not and again you

01:00:44   may not even have to take your phone out

01:00:45   of your pocket to have its camp right i

01:00:48   think that i think the implications of

01:00:50   passbook huge yeah i think so too and

01:00:52   it's a really clever system

01:00:54   I mean I guess we can't get into the

01:00:56   details of how it works because that's

01:00:57   clearly NDA but it's really really

01:00:59   clever and so anybody out there who does

01:01:02   if you've got an account and you're

01:01:04   thinking about what WWDC sessions to

01:01:06   watch i would highly recommend the

01:01:09   passbook sessions because they're really

01:01:11   interesting and I thought they were at

01:01:14   you know all the sessions deputies here

01:01:16   good but i thought those were really

01:01:17   exceptionally well structured from my

01:01:21   god had a gajal standpoint like that's

01:01:23   just it just opens your mind how it

01:01:25   works and it's a really clever system

01:01:28   yeah it's very satisfying yeah so i'm

01:01:31   not sure to be huge for ios6 but I think

01:01:33   they're going to start making a lot of

01:01:36   deals around this and we'll see what

01:01:37   happens

01:01:37   what else do you have anything else from

01:01:40   WTC and I really think that in his new

01:01:44   maps it whenever I don't know what to

01:01:48   make about that i know people are saying

01:01:50   that there's not as much detail on the

01:01:51   maps i think the the lack of transit

01:01:57   stuff

01:01:58   I you know I link to a thing this week

01:01:59   from somebody saying that you know what

01:02:01   that's actually a good idea because

01:02:02   because the transit stuff is all over

01:02:05   the map not a little bit

01:02:07   no cleaning ended yeah I but like in

01:02:10   Europe there's some places where that

01:02:12   the transit information

01:02:13   is owned by private companies and they

01:02:14   don't want google having it for free and

01:02:16   they're like blogging them but on the

01:02:20   other hand I i wrote a very brief piece

01:02:23   you know a little link thing early this

01:02:25   morning its bottom line notes from users

01:02:27   users don't care about that stuff like

01:02:28   all users are going to know is that if

01:02:29   they used to rely on the transit info in

01:02:31   the Maps app and it's gone that's that's

01:02:33   a downgrade right so I mean it's you

01:02:36   know I gotta say that that's points off

01:02:39   for ios6 i mean i don't care i mean

01:02:41   maybe a long-term it does work out

01:02:43   better but in the short term people are

01:02:45   going to notice and it's it's like a

01:02:47   record of it

01:02:48   well I think the question is would you

01:02:49   rather have flyover or know what bus

01:02:52   line to take right if I was really cool

01:02:55   i also had thanks flyover is why i like

01:02:58   it way better than Street View in Google

01:03:00   Street feel and I guess the argument for

01:03:03   street view is that cool but it's not as

01:03:05   useful street you have literally used to

01:03:07   like I know this building here this

01:03:09   restaurant and I know they've got their

01:03:11   phone number on the window right and I'm

01:03:14   literally used to defeat for you to go

01:03:16   and find it i guess that's the argument

01:03:17   is that street view is from the

01:03:19   perspective of you on the sidewalk right

01:03:21   it's like I walk down the street and

01:03:23   know where that thing is and i'm trying

01:03:24   to remember you know you can go and see

01:03:26   it and flowers incredibly cool

01:03:31   technology i gotta say ah yeah very cool

01:03:37   let me take it before we talk about the

01:03:39   rest of the stuff is a good good time to

01:03:40   do the second sponsor right in our

01:03:42   second sponsor is a new app for the iPad

01:03:46   called vijay spelled v j-a-y from

01:03:50   algorithm you may know them from their

01:03:53   other app DJ which was like a record

01:03:57   spinning app for the ipad i had very

01:04:01   very acclaimed ever seen videos of

01:04:04   people using an iPad or multiple iPads

01:04:06   to sort of do I don't know what you call

01:04:11   it but DJ's do is I'm sort of out of my

01:04:13   league here because i'm not very musical

01:04:15   your musical guy I know

01:04:20   no well it's a terrible i like music I

01:04:23   listen to dividing these well it's

01:04:25   called yeah but

01:04:26   here's what it is Vijay is real-time

01:04:29   touch scratching for videos you mix

01:04:32   videos and songs together and you can

01:04:35   make mashups you can make home videos

01:04:37   you can do it to entertain people on but

01:04:40   it's more than just clips edited

01:04:41   together it's it's a performance right

01:04:44   it's it's like being a DJ and mixing

01:04:46   music live except with music and video

01:04:49   so it's not just a video it's not a

01:04:51   video editor / say to way to do blend

01:04:54   two videos together with music live like

01:04:58   a performance like you sit there and

01:05:00   play with it and you can record them you

01:05:03   can output them over hdmi and airplay

01:05:05   with real-time output right over airplay

01:05:08   so like somebody who was entertaining a

01:05:10   crowd like an actual DJ or VJ I got a

01:05:14   party you would have this ipad app in

01:05:16   front of them and could sit here and

01:05:18   blend these things and have it like

01:05:19   projected on a big screen behind them

01:05:21   it's super impressive and and from user

01:05:24   interface perspective it is everything

01:05:26   is live there is no latency it's super

01:05:31   smooth it works on the ipad 2 and the

01:05:33   new ipad parentheses three did you play

01:05:37   with it i sent you from ok I did I did

01:05:39   it's very impressive it is super

01:05:41   impressive it is the sort of thing where

01:05:43   I myself i I don't I can't use it to the

01:05:46   way that it could be used but i

01:05:47   guarantee you that with this app there

01:05:49   will be videos of people making these

01:05:51   amazing things and mixing these things

01:05:53   and people will be like I can't believe

01:05:55   it and it fits right in with this

01:05:57   resurgence in argument about whether the

01:06:01   ipad is for creation or consumption at

01:06:03   which is to me I cannot believe that

01:06:05   we're still having this argument in 2012

01:06:07   but this app vijay from algorithm is

01:06:10   like ground zero step one of my god this

01:06:14   thing can be used for creation like in a

01:06:15   way and and the best thing about it is

01:06:17   it's a perfect example of the sort of

01:06:19   creation that you can do on the ipad

01:06:22   that you couldn't do on a Mac because

01:06:25   the Holy visual it and it's multi-touch

01:06:28   it's two things at once so there's only

01:06:30   one mouse on the Mac you can't you can't

01:06:33   spend two things at once you can't twist

01:06:34   two different things at the same time on

01:06:36   the mac which is the entire point

01:06:38   of Vijay that you're you're tweaking to

01:06:41   songs at once or two videos at once at

01:06:43   the same time I really nice UI

01:06:46   skeuomorphic in a very very appropriate

01:06:49   way where it it's this you know it you

01:06:53   launch the app and it makes it feel like

01:06:54   your ipad is like a dedicated device

01:06:56   meant from video mixing really really

01:06:59   cool app very well done regular price

01:07:04   1999 deja vu right now fifty percent off

01:07:09   intro pricing it's only 999 on the app

01:07:12   store crazy you can find out more at

01:07:16   algorithm a lgor i ddim dot-com I or you

01:07:23   can just google vjv jaay and look it up

01:07:26   there

01:07:26   999 on the App Store amazingly creative

01:07:29   app anybody who has any kind of interest

01:07:31   in music and stuff like that go get it

01:07:33   so great app beautiful so you had some

01:07:36   good sponsors this week

01:07:38   terrific sponsors like you so I'll tell

01:07:41   said it and I was on a phone

01:07:44   conversation with the algorithm guys

01:07:46   over about DJ they were having some

01:07:48   weird coronation issue and and Michael

01:07:52   Simmons the flexibility i actually

01:07:54   introduced me to them and we so we had a

01:07:56   little bit of a chat to work out what's

01:07:58   going on

01:07:59   they are really really smart guys very

01:08:01   nice their apps are amazing i go buy it

01:08:07   please this is so I'm talking about the

01:08:09   guy english is the guy that you talk to

01:08:11   when you're having like the core

01:08:12   animation problem that's a guy like do

01:08:15   private calls like this everyday or

01:08:16   somebody with an amazing app but they're

01:08:19   running up a thing where they've they're

01:08:20   stuck at 54 frames per second and they

01:08:22   know that that stinks because anything

01:08:24   under 60 is kind of janky and then and

01:08:27   then they call you and then you tell

01:08:28   them what's wrong and Elvis and they're

01:08:29   running it like 6 25 frames per second

01:08:31   to be honest I don't know what I told

01:08:33   him help but you don't know it just you

01:08:37   know we chatted about what was going on

01:08:39   I don't know i don't want to take any

01:08:40   credit I don't know actually did help

01:08:41   them but we chatted in it and they're

01:08:44   very very smart guys alright very smart

01:08:47   guys great sponsors thank you both

01:08:50   so the other big news of the week is

01:08:53   from Microsoft you and I sort of where

01:09:00   we going where we weren't watching

01:09:01   because I didn't do the video live we're

01:09:03   following the live blog coverage right

01:09:06   live and then chatting to each other on

01:09:08   the back channel and and let me just say

01:09:12   this here's the thing i was thinking

01:09:13   this is me yesterday was yesterday

01:09:15   here's what i was saying i got nervous

01:09:16   about having you on the show because one

01:09:20   thing everybody always wanted people say

01:09:21   to get somebody on the show is going to

01:09:23   do is gonna is gonna fight back and

01:09:25   going to tell you tell you what the

01:09:26   hell's wrong with you and that's why I

01:09:27   thought all right I'm gonna do I'm gonna

01:09:29   get guy guys guys guys not gonna let me

01:09:31   slide this is one thing I think I I mean

01:09:34   I haven't written anything good in weeks

01:09:37   and guys going to call me out on that

01:09:38   he's going to say what are you doing you

01:09:40   haven't got so I thought I gotta write

01:09:42   something good I got and I gotta write

01:09:44   something so the guy can't tell me that

01:09:46   i've been slacking off and so here's

01:09:48   what it is i went back to our i am and i

01:09:49   stole all of your ideas all of your

01:09:52   comments from the surface event and then

01:09:55   turn them into a little article for

01:09:56   daring fireball well how to really great

01:09:59   article I don't know them ideas I mean

01:10:02   whatever i'm not particularly and get

01:10:05   jealous about where ideas come from and

01:10:07   I wouldn't like he said that to me on

01:10:09   twitter and i can add didn't feel it was

01:10:10   me and that was more of us just chatting

01:10:12   but I do you know i'll give you credit

01:10:14   and I stole the the fact that they

01:10:16   couldn't date they clearly couldn't make

01:10:18   enough decisions that was for ya

01:10:21   oh thank you and ya know I think they I

01:10:27   think they made good decisions and but

01:10:29   they didn't make great decisions they

01:10:30   made both of those products are

01:10:32   interesting by themselves right I one

01:10:35   less so I like that the Intel one looks

01:10:37   kind of garbage to me personally but I

01:10:40   could see that being a product that they

01:10:41   would want to shit to do both of them is

01:10:44   crazy i don't understand what the hell

01:10:47   they're thinking well or wide why

01:10:50   announce both of them at the same time

01:10:52   why not just announced the arm one and

01:10:55   make it all about that here's a here's

01:10:57   the the argument is that they've

01:10:58   announced an arm-based tablet and

01:11:03   an intel-based tablet that's thicker and

01:11:07   light so it's sort of like the arm-based

01:11:08   one is vaguely and I'm roughly

01:11:10   equivalent to like an iPad and the art

01:11:12   and the intel based one is roughly

01:11:14   equivalent to like a macbook air but

01:11:16   with a touch string and then they also

01:11:18   introduced this very clever capacitive i

01:11:21   guess i gotta smart cover magnetically

01:11:24   attached but that has a keyboard on it

01:11:26   and very good that part that super

01:11:29   clever about it isn't just the idea of

01:11:31   hey why not you know why not have the

01:11:33   underside of the cover be a keyboard and

01:11:37   it attaches magnetically like Apple

01:11:39   smart covers but the thing that's really

01:11:40   clever is that it draws power over that

01:11:43   magnetic connection so that the keyboard

01:11:45   cover doesn't itself need a battery so

01:11:47   like if you were gonna make I'm sure

01:11:48   after they did that there's a probably

01:11:51   gonna be like 20 Kickstarter campaigns

01:11:53   this week from people to make something

01:11:55   like that for the ipad but if you did it

01:11:57   for the ipad it would have to be a

01:11:58   bluetooth thing and that means that it

01:12:00   would draw it would need like a battery

01:12:02   and I don't know that they could even be

01:12:03   as thin as as the microsoft one but then

01:12:05   like 20 minutes later in in the event

01:12:08   then they come out with another cover

01:12:09   that has a keyboard that actually has

01:12:11   physical moving Keys I don't get it so

01:12:15   they in other words the message instead

01:12:16   of the message being here it is

01:12:19   we're making our own tablet boom this is

01:12:22   it and we've got this amazing cover here

01:12:26   it is

01:12:27   they've got this mixed-up story of

01:12:29   here's a tablet and its arm and it's

01:12:32   thinner and lighter and cooler and

01:12:35   here's this water keyboard

01:12:36   oh but here's this other tablet that

01:12:38   looks the same from the front and then

01:12:40   you turn it sideways and it's real thick

01:12:41   and has vents but it runs photoshop and

01:12:46   anything from windows so you know it is

01:12:48   a reasonable it's not a crazy trade-off

01:12:50   there's actually reason somebody might

01:12:52   want to do it

01:12:53   oh and here's this other keyboard cover

01:12:55   and they're not we don't know when

01:12:56   they're shipping and what the prices are

01:12:57   and the other one is going to ship at

01:12:59   least three months after the other one

01:13:01   that we don't know when it's gonna show

01:13:02   and it had to be the whole thing just

01:13:03   sort of falls apart at that point

01:13:05   yeah well i mean i think the thing is

01:13:07   that they're chasing customer affection

01:13:11   rather than started selling em a product

01:13:15   you know I mean there

01:13:16   they're nervous they don't know which

01:13:19   one to do i think one could probably

01:13:21   came up with the arm one and then

01:13:24   somebody upstairs was like no we gotta

01:13:26   have this until one right and they just

01:13:28   did both and I don't think they I want

01:13:31   one thing that struck me about the event

01:13:33   was that they did indeed this is an idea

01:13:35   that you didn't steal so okay I get to

01:13:38   10 smart they didn't sell their choices

01:13:46   that they made day and they say

01:13:48   specifically called out how hard it was

01:13:51   to make choices right found interesting

01:13:54   that I think it's just the wrong thing

01:13:58   to do but basically you make your

01:14:00   choices you come up with the product and

01:14:02   any sell it

01:14:03   this is it we believe it what did what

01:14:06   they specifically call out in the event

01:14:08   is like man we had a lot of hard choices

01:14:09   to make

01:14:10   but we think these are great right and

01:14:12   yet you've got a spectrum of stuff which

01:14:14   clearly means that you don't you know

01:14:16   you didn't put all the wood behind one

01:14:18   arrow you didn't you didn't pick

01:14:19   something to be great

01:14:20   perfect turn of phrase right they didn't

01:14:24   put all other wood behind one arrow

01:14:26   which i think is a shame because it be

01:14:29   the arm one is interesting or or if they

01:14:32   did maybe from their perspective they

01:14:34   did and that the they're thinking of it

01:14:36   from the perspective of we're going to

01:14:39   start making pc hardware in general

01:14:41   which is a tremendous fundamental shift

01:14:44   for the company and I know people have

01:14:45   said regarding my article that's not

01:14:47   that Microsoft has never gotten hardware

01:14:49   before they make the xbox they've made

01:14:51   all sorts of peripherals before they

01:14:53   made the zunes but yes so they say

01:14:56   they've made hardware before but the one

01:14:58   it's almost like a religious line that

01:15:00   they've never crossed as they've never

01:15:02   made pc hardware before right that's I

01:15:04   mean the zune is one thing where you

01:15:08   enter at the hardware market where your

01:15:10   partners are right you know but that's

01:15:13   not their key market right this is the

01:15:15   bread-and-butter the foundation of the

01:15:17   entire microsoft Empire is this notion

01:15:20   of we make a PC operating system and

01:15:24   apps for that operating system office

01:15:28   primarily from a financial standpoint

01:15:29   but you know all sorts of other stuff

01:15:31   they make the airplane simulator and you

01:15:36   guys

01:15:36   dell HP sony toshiba samsung you guys

01:15:42   make the hardware you guys make the

01:15:45   hardware we do the software and it's a

01:15:48   very crystal in the pc industry and that

01:15:50   you know that's where all of the money's

01:15:53   coming from and now they've so i think

01:15:55   from their perspective that they've put

01:15:56   all their wood behind the arrow ok now

01:15:58   we're making hardware to write whereas

01:16:01   from the messaging standpoint that's

01:16:03   interesting the microsoft I mean that is

01:16:05   very interesting to Microsoft but from a

01:16:08   consumer standpoint they don't really

01:16:10   care you know like people just want to

01:16:12   buy an ice machine and have it work

01:16:14   yeah centric focused it's more like and

01:16:17   you know corporate broadcaster and they

01:16:19   so they didn't what I think was lacking

01:16:21   from the event was a story a narrative

01:16:24   about why why you'd want this and what

01:16:27   you would do with it right and what the

01:16:29   different you know and and because they

01:16:31   didn't have a story at all it means that

01:16:33   they didn't even come first you need the

01:16:35   story and then you've got to figure out

01:16:37   a way in that story to differentiate

01:16:40   between the two devices the Intel one in

01:16:43   the arm one but because i didn't have a

01:16:44   story period

01:16:46   it's a real i think miss mash messaging

01:16:50   whys of why there's two of them and what

01:16:52   the differences are well I mean they

01:16:54   should give him the whole event that

01:16:55   panels gay

01:16:56   yeah i thought so too i really i thought

01:16:58   he was gonna get it was comfortable and

01:16:59   I realized that what he was talking

01:17:01   about was a little bit the

01:17:03   self-referential where he was talking

01:17:05   about the design and on the design

01:17:08   process but his enthusiasm was genuine

01:17:10   and he actually was going to seem

01:17:12   comfortable up there

01:17:13   yeah like I cracked a joke on Twitter

01:17:15   during the event occurred a couple jokes

01:17:18   but one of the jokes I've number one no

01:17:20   I just want to even though i crack jokes

01:17:21   that doesn't mean I don't like the thing

01:17:22   i'm a color me very intrigued by the

01:17:25   whole thing and I think it's the same

01:17:26   thing is true for you too right yeah

01:17:28   very much so I i mean i think this thing

01:17:30   could be i think this is the whole I i

01:17:33   am the thing i'm skeptical about is

01:17:35   windows 8 on regular pcs I think better

01:17:38   on regular pcs I

01:17:39   I really from what I've seen and played

01:17:41   with it i think it's i think it's wrong

01:17:43   i think metro on a touchscreen device is

01:17:48   really really interesting and especially

01:17:50   on a bigger one that's bigger than a

01:17:52   phone not like in some sense i do think

01:17:55   that iOS is a little bit like a phone OS

01:17:58   that runs on a tablet whereas I think

01:18:00   that the metro you user interface really

01:18:02   feels and it seems like it's natural for

01:18:04   like a nine inch tablet 10-inch tablet

01:18:07   color me very interested but you know so

01:18:10   the jokes are just me you know cracking

01:18:12   jokes but my job one of my jokes was

01:18:14   that the because the Intel one time with

01:18:17   you

01:18:17   the Intel one to me seems janky because

01:18:19   it's thick and has vented as a fan

01:18:22   it's a serious magnetic pin- them i like

01:18:27   I honestly i'm a i'm a fan of the pan

01:18:29   input idea i think it's a great idea

01:18:31   magnetizing it to you think now don't do

01:18:33   that right

01:18:34   this is not the all of the differences

01:18:37   between their arm one any Intel 12 me

01:18:40   are advertisements for the arm one

01:18:42   yes so I cracked a joke that the I maybe

01:18:47   i'll get the deep the things wrong that

01:18:49   I said it's it's thicker and has a fan

01:18:51   and it has a cassette tape deck because

01:18:54   it just seems like it's you know it's

01:18:56   it's old technology you know it'sit's

01:18:59   and it's a lot to me it's also a lot

01:19:01   like the tablet pcs that Microsoft's

01:19:05   been trying to sell for for 15 years

01:19:08   right right you know what you know they

01:19:09   should have done just occurred to me

01:19:10   you're right it's old its old attack

01:19:12   what they should have done is

01:19:13   introducing the Intel one first

01:19:15   hmm yeah we got his we got the United

01:19:19   States is not the old windows it's got

01:19:20   also for its a very comfortable it's

01:19:22   like a macbook air with touchscreen got

01:19:24   the clicky clicky keyboard great how do

01:19:26   you like that

01:19:27   nice pretty excited guess what here's an

01:19:30   arm 14 metro very fat like it's got

01:19:33   advanced your keyboard

01:19:34   they didn't order it really did think

01:19:38   about the order that Apple did the

01:19:40   15-inch macbook pros last week right

01:19:42   first the old one that's not exciting it

01:19:45   i mean and and I say not exciting it

01:19:48   actually is that the new the new old

01:19:50   15-inch

01:19:51   book pros are actually very nice

01:19:53   upgrades I mean knows it's like cutting

01:19:55   edge intel chipsets it's a really nice

01:19:57   performance upgrade but they did those

01:19:59   first but I mean still where we were all

01:20:01   calling them the new old ones right yeah

01:20:04   you're exactly right thing about the way

01:20:05   Apple did the macbook pros i completely

01:20:07   agree to the one that's that's older

01:20:09   tech first and do the skating to where

01:20:12   the puck is going next which is arm

01:20:14   which is thinner which is no vents no

01:20:18   fan no need for that runs cool not know

01:20:21   legacy apps

01:20:23   yeah yeah they totally didn't order see

01:20:26   well and I think that's telling because

01:20:28   i think that they think they probably

01:20:29   did them in the right order and where

01:20:31   the one that can't on the desktop

01:20:33   Windows is the lesser product to them so

01:20:38   they there there big reveal was I guess

01:20:40   why you can go on desktops up on this

01:20:41   and I think that is you know telling

01:20:45   about the company i'm also curious about

01:20:52   the timing of the event and like I had

01:20:54   you know who you'll never know because

01:20:56   you know what if you're going to

01:20:57   pre-announce something it when is the

01:20:59   right time to pronounce it and you know

01:21:01   eivol you know Apple pre-announced is

01:21:05   almost nothing they tend to announce

01:21:07   stuff when it's ready or like ready next

01:21:08   week but for example they pronounce the

01:21:13   iphone by six months and i think there's

01:21:16   a couple special reason right because

01:21:18   they weren't cannibalizing their own

01:21:19   sales and they had to start doing

01:21:22   federal mcc mcc stuff that it was going

01:21:26   to leak anyway so this was a way to to

01:21:28   control the reveal

01:21:29   but the big thing is they weren't

01:21:31   cannibalizing their own sales and so

01:21:33   Microsoft is in a very similar position

01:21:35   with this where it's really i don't

01:21:38   think it's going to stop sales of

01:21:40   existing windows notebooks and PCs but

01:21:44   it might maybe a little for some buyers

01:21:47   slow sales of ipads or make people wait

01:21:50   a little bit you know mean it's I don't

01:21:53   think it would be if if it works if it

01:21:55   catches on and the idea of we should

01:21:58   wait for the surface at least to see it

01:22:00   if there's any merit to it it's only

01:22:02   going to hurt out

01:22:03   all or and or android tablet makers it's

01:22:07   not gonna hurt anybody who's already

01:22:08   using windows

01:22:10   yeah right i don't think that they risk

01:22:11   cannibalizing anything of their own

01:22:13   I don't think they thought it through

01:22:15   that much time in your piece supposing

01:22:16   that they're all right good got a plan

01:22:18   but I also think well I think it's a lot

01:22:21   about the fact that at some point once

01:22:23   they get this thing the wheels running

01:22:24   on this thing production-wise they can't

01:22:26   keep it secret

01:22:27   maybe those I mean those things to seem

01:22:31   to barely work great

01:22:33   could the journalist didn't get to play

01:22:35   with the keyboards everything was all

01:22:36   screwed up right one of them frozen on

01:22:38   stage it's just bad and like it was the

01:22:43   worst thing about it is that he didn't

01:22:45   even add well no it's not you know stuff

01:22:47   went wrong for Steve at times but if you

01:22:50   know any laughter handle it well right

01:22:52   sort of like Johnny Carson with a bomb

01:22:55   joke right

01:22:56   yeah you just gotta roll with it was

01:22:58   like excuse me and give me a minute

01:23:00   Campbell's over to like the spare line

01:23:03   okay yeah he he almost the way he

01:23:06   rambled over there it

01:23:08   this is steven sinofsky it almost looked

01:23:09   as though he was just gonna run off the

01:23:11   stage and not come back like he was just

01:23:13   here I would if I would've just left and

01:23:16   just throwing thing again and just left

01:23:19   but so I so everything we know about

01:23:23   this event is it was very last minute

01:23:24   right they got invites went out during

01:23:26   the week of WC yeah and people didn't

01:23:30   know where to go now wants to come to LA

01:23:32   like it seems to me that I don't know if

01:23:37   this is I have no idea but apparently

01:23:43   google is going to be announcing like a

01:23:44   nexus tablet

01:23:46   alright next week at i/o and it seems to

01:23:49   me that maybe Microsoft knows that I got

01:23:52   it I finally figured it out and that

01:23:55   they want to frame any i/o announcements

01:23:57   through the lens that they're just

01:24:02   presented alright hastily um you know

01:24:09   maybe not maybe you know not in the tech

01:24:11   press necessarily but in the mainstream

01:24:12   dress you know that whatever is

01:24:15   announced at i/o

01:24:17   is going to be related to what

01:24:20   Microsoft's just said yeah I think so

01:24:24   too and and in terms of being arranged

01:24:27   at the last minute it does seem like the

01:24:28   invitations and etc at least the

01:24:31   invitations went out after the WWDC

01:24:33   keynote right and so I I can only guess

01:24:37   that they were like let's see if apple

01:24:39   announces anything relevant which they

01:24:42   didn't but i think that there's and who

01:24:46   knows maybe Microsoft has better Intel

01:24:48   then we do that you know maybe they even

01:24:50   know more about what Google's going to

01:24:51   announce but it you know the consensus

01:24:53   is certainly that google is going to

01:24:55   announce something that's pretty much

01:24:56   along the same lines google-branded

01:24:57   tablet right I'm and I think they wanted

01:25:02   to get in front of that

01:25:03   yeah I mean there's any press about the

01:25:06   google cabinet is going to be pressed

01:25:07   for them they're all right it's is what

01:25:10   google did with 3d maps or try to do I

01:25:12   mean personally don't think it's a great

01:25:14   move right i think it looks defensive

01:25:17   exactly but it is it's the common thing

01:25:20   in google just did with the maps all

01:25:22   right I guess we're running short on

01:25:26   time here but we have a few more things

01:25:27   I wanted to talk to you about stuff that

01:25:29   you're working on you run a conference

01:25:32   in Montreal started last year singleton

01:25:35   get Mac to indymac or indeed i say Mac

01:25:38   but in the Apple Developer Conference

01:25:40   right we've had with the loop and how

01:25:43   Scott Morrison and a lot of help from a

01:25:46   tree Muller where it was it was

01:25:48   fantastic i was there last year and it

01:25:50   was a terrific time people are I think

01:25:52   much did you get a lot of people asking

01:25:55   at WTC about singleton 20 yeah yeah but

01:25:57   he's asking when it's going on sale and

01:25:59   whatnot it's going to be I but i think

01:26:01   it's going to be a WWDC situation now

01:26:04   where it's like you're going to put it

01:26:05   on sale and the damn thing is going to

01:26:06   sell out

01:26:07   yeah I mean that happened last year like

01:26:09   I had to ask you not to actually mention

01:26:11   it on verifiable last year because it

01:26:13   went pretty quick then it's ok that is

01:26:16   rare it is actually very rare that

01:26:18   people the people asked me not to link

01:26:20   to sell me

01:26:21   I'm gonna put this thing on sale don't

01:26:24   want to do it aren't there in viral

01:26:25   because i think that the people who read

01:26:28   recite are really going to jump all over

01:26:29   it right everybody is going to have a

01:26:33   bigger venue

01:26:34   yeah a little bit bigger and better 220

01:26:37   people compared to the sort of 75 80

01:26:40   that we had last time very small crab

01:26:42   but i think a small confiscated so the

01:26:46   value is you know I think the speaker's

01:26:48   being a lot of value but I think in a

01:26:52   way the greater value is having smoked

01:26:54   out meeting everybody and talking about

01:26:56   this because had to say I'm always

01:27:00   interested to like sometimes when people

01:27:05   talk to me about daring fireball

01:27:07   sponsorships or the talk so sponsorships

01:27:09   and i'll ask well you know what kind of

01:27:12   results can i expect and I often i don't

01:27:15   really know i mean i-i don't measure

01:27:16   stuff like that like when I have links

01:27:19   to your site

01:27:20   it just goes right to you there's no

01:27:21   click tracker and even if I did have a

01:27:23   cliq tracker who knows what that means

01:27:25   and who knows whether you can even trust

01:27:26   it or whatever and and whether one thing

01:27:28   goes awry i always say the bottom line

01:27:30   is you know I think the most telling

01:27:32   thing is how many repeat sponsors there

01:27:34   are and there's a lot and that means

01:27:36   that they came back and they were happy

01:27:37   and so when I you know you're doing a

01:27:39   conference because I've often thought

01:27:40   maybe you know maybe I should try to put

01:27:43   a conference together

01:27:44   the interesting thing to me wasn't

01:27:45   whether you did the first one it was

01:27:46   whether you'd want to do a second one

01:27:48   right and you're dead

01:27:50   yeah we headed it was a big success we

01:27:53   are not financially actually just it

01:27:56   makes even to it's not a this is not a

01:27:58   business for us it's just something that

01:28:00   we wanted to do and we had it's like a

01:28:04   really great time we had a great

01:28:06   speakers great turnout and you know we

01:28:08   want to do it again about to happen up

01:28:09   and try it out again and because i think

01:28:12   it's actually we're not focused the same

01:28:17   way there's a lot of indie conferences a

01:28:18   lot of really good ones but we're not

01:28:19   really focused on the same kind of thing

01:28:21   right

01:28:22   we aim to sort of be more meta level it

01:28:26   will last year was about

01:28:31   maybe we tend to pick themes was going

01:28:35   to but the idea is that we're gonna pick

01:28:37   themes and last year's basically a the

01:28:41   team was that we're at it we were at an

01:28:43   inflection point that the mac was

01:28:44   clearly going away of iOS in terms of

01:28:47   the mac app store sandboxing and a lot

01:28:51   of indie developers the way that they

01:28:53   run their businesses was going to change

01:28:54   so we thought to be valuable to get a

01:28:58   bunch of people together and sort of

01:29:00   discuss that discuss where things were

01:29:01   going and and how people can adapt to

01:29:04   the change and i think that work well

01:29:06   this year and the team is going to be

01:29:09   about girls and scaling and then the

01:29:12   process behind that because I think as

01:29:18   smaller developers or you know basically

01:29:22   people in the industry we're all getting

01:29:25   a lot more customers or in your case a

01:29:27   lot more meters it then we used to say

01:29:29   you know five years ago and how do we

01:29:33   handle that like what does that mean for

01:29:36   our businesses and our our software and

01:29:40   the way that we approach that the market

01:29:42   and our customers a good theme like I

01:29:45   said just talking to some people as we

01:29:47   get WTC there's definitely some really

01:29:50   really small shops one-man shows two men

01:29:53   partnerships that that have more

01:29:56   customers then I I don't know ever

01:30:00   before I mean I guess they're with their

01:30:02   websites that could do it now the web

01:30:04   sort of enabled that but with these apps

01:30:06   there's people who have more customers

01:30:07   than then it's fashionable for a

01:30:09   one-person shop right to do and you know

01:30:13   I don't know the you know it's a good

01:30:14   topic because I just don't know that

01:30:16   we're hooked up evolutionarily that to

01:30:18   deal with that sort of scale adding like

01:30:21   an individual level like if you ran at

01:30:23   you know a bakery that you didn't

01:30:26   doesn't make any sense that you have

01:30:27   40,000 customers a week right just

01:30:30   doesn't doesn't doesn't work well with

01:30:33   apps it works you can do it well yeah

01:30:35   there's still challenges what load goes

01:30:37   way up the ramp and add edges i think

01:30:43   its new

01:30:43   interesting topic at I think it's what's

01:30:48   happening this year last year I think

01:30:50   was like big change this year things are

01:30:52   going I don't know what will be next

01:30:53   year but hopefully I'll identified or

01:30:56   will identify it and come up with

01:30:58   another game so the other thing that

01:31:00   you've got cooking

01:31:01   you've got a new company yeah aged in

01:31:04   distilled yeah with the our good friend

01:31:07   Chris parish Chris parish formerly of

01:31:09   rogue sheep

01:31:10   yep you formerly of rogue amoeba and we

01:31:14   went rogue and get lucky it's not cheap

01:31:18   jokes it will cut that out don't worry

01:31:20   about the past and i will cut that right

01:31:21   out scene and you guys I you're not

01:31:25   ready to announce anything yet but you

01:31:27   guys are working on the app and it's it

01:31:29   is a mac app not an iOS app right and i

01:31:33   think that's interesting because I feel

01:31:34   like I certainly the mac you know Mac

01:31:38   sales are up Mac it's never been better

01:31:40   time to be a Mac Developer but I'd iOS

01:31:42   is growth so is so explosive that it

01:31:46   dwarfs the growth the mac has been

01:31:49   undergoing and there's sort of an

01:31:51   assumption i think that most people if

01:31:54   they're going to start a new thing to do

01:31:55   apps it's going to be iphone and ipad

01:31:57   apps right so I supposed to be the

01:32:03   answer that question is what we wanted

01:32:05   to solve a problem and the problem

01:32:07   existed or was best salt on the Mac hey

01:32:10   I'm so what the app is basically it's

01:32:13   you it's called Mac instead concise

01:32:18   visual communication and it's for

01:32:20   marking up images and working with

01:32:22   designers and developers remotely so you

01:32:25   can very quickly with a good novel input

01:32:27   method make notes on imaging share it

01:32:31   and given that that's the problem you're

01:32:37   trying to solve it and it's a problem

01:32:38   that I've been candid like monkey said

01:32:40   when i was working with me but I was

01:32:42   working remote and would often want to

01:32:44   send notes back and forth on you know

01:32:46   the work with that the widgets did the

01:32:49   design and it was difficult when you and

01:32:52   Chris work remote cause Christian is

01:32:53   chris's in Seattle and I'm here in

01:32:56   Montreal

01:32:57   so you're both in Canada but on

01:32:59   different different sides of the

01:33:00   continent exactly exactly different

01:33:02   costs so you guys probably use it you

01:33:08   guys probably use it you know your dog

01:33:11   fooding it

01:33:12   yeah yeah we use it a lot and you know a

01:33:14   couple other people use it to is it

01:33:18   written already know

01:33:21   well it will be easy right

01:33:26   well I mean we just needed to exit did

01:33:29   resources exactly

01:33:30   yeah but it's like we were pretty close

01:33:33   to shipping and so we want to ship same

01:33:36   time as a mountain lion we're gonna

01:33:37   we're gonna be my online only going to

01:33:40   use all their goodies but yeah it's to

01:33:44   answer the question about iOS and this

01:33:46   was a problem that primarily existed on

01:33:49   the on a mac in the designer is working

01:33:52   in photoshop or developers working in

01:33:54   Xcode and you want to quicklys you don't

01:33:58   share things back and for it and it is

01:34:01   an app that is very well suited to the

01:34:03   ipad but the project the problem we want

01:34:08   to solve manifest itself mainly on the

01:34:11   mac right now I think that it fits

01:34:13   I think that's one of the the messages

01:34:16   apple has been trying to reiterate in

01:34:18   the last year or so is more or less

01:34:20   don't forget about the mac i think I

01:34:24   can't believe that big dick from Apple's

01:34:27   perspective that they can't believe that

01:34:29   after six consecutive years of

01:34:31   consecutive quarters 24 consecutive

01:34:34   quarters were the mac has mac sales have

01:34:37   grown faster than the pc industry at

01:34:38   large 24 consecutive quarters they still

01:34:43   have to remind people like hate the mac

01:34:45   is that is awesome and it's at

01:34:48   there's totally problems that can only

01:34:51   be that are best solved on the mac

01:34:53   ya think so I mean I think there's still

01:34:55   a bit of a look at the gold rush

01:34:58   mentality around iOS I were you know

01:35:03   Chris and I think would rather figure

01:35:07   out problem to solve and workout

01:35:09   yesterday

01:35:10   soft and in this case it's on a mac i

01:35:12   also think I do think that there's an

01:35:14   opportunity there to that that a new

01:35:16   thing for the mac you might be able to

01:35:18   gain attention quicker then stuff for

01:35:22   the iOS because there's so much less of

01:35:25   that gold rush mentality

01:35:27   yeah and conservatively there's so many

01:35:28   thousands of developers releasing iOS

01:35:33   stuff that in the mac stuff can gain

01:35:35   traction and I thought that was obvious

01:35:38   to and I thought it was clear the

01:35:40   keynote and it's occurred to me that I

01:35:41   was a little bored during the mountain

01:35:43   lion section because i'm almost all old

01:35:45   stuff you know stuff we already knew but

01:35:47   then somebody pointed out that it was

01:35:51   you know most of the developers there

01:35:53   they don't even think they don't know

01:35:54   anything about mountain lions are not

01:35:55   writing mac apps night it was all news

01:35:58   to them that's why there was so much

01:35:59   applause for like the stuff that was you

01:36:02   know on apple's website for months

01:36:04   yeah I think Syracuse was saying that on

01:36:06   his show yeah it's exactly know what

01:36:08   that's it that's where i got it i think

01:36:09   you know what I think he told me that in

01:36:11   person last week to it could be and yeah

01:36:16   it like the mountain lion section of the

01:36:18   keynote was really kind of boring i

01:36:20   think maybe power nap was new

01:36:22   yeah it's at all that's cool but I mean

01:36:25   yeah between asleep it was power nap and

01:36:28   dictation right where the two new things

01:36:30   that were really on so it'sit's and I

01:36:32   was not the most exciting

01:36:34   no no no Richard developer technology

01:36:36   they just work they do that thing right

01:36:38   on you can tweet in it in a notification

01:36:40   area now

01:36:41   alright alright like nothing you know

01:36:43   nothing groundbreaking but you know I

01:36:44   think mountain lion is the it's what

01:36:48   line should have been

01:36:49   yeah basically you know it's the

01:36:51   polished version i think ios6 is the

01:36:53   same as a polished version of iOS 5 6 d

01:36:58   we're not on a major leap year right now

01:37:01   threat you know and and we gotta wrap

01:37:04   this up but I did there's a story on

01:37:06   Gizmodo today

01:37:07   somebody wrote in the headline any more

01:37:08   or less says it all is that Microsoft is

01:37:10   now the most exciting company in tech

01:37:12   and it's typical gizmodo linkbait where

01:37:17   they're trying to take an obvious

01:37:19   contrarian perspective on what I have to

01:37:22   say that in in broad strokes

01:37:24   I i actually agree with that and now and

01:37:27   later in the article forget who wrote it

01:37:28   on my command staff who cares its

01:37:30   gizmodo but they date instead of saying

01:37:32   exciting they said innovative isn't most

01:37:34   innovative know there i think is more of

01:37:36   an argument I think exciting is the word

01:37:38   that actually is more apt which is that

01:37:42   nobody was really expecting the surface

01:37:44   thing this week they kept that secret

01:37:46   and people were thinking the best people

01:37:48   thought was maybe like a barnes and

01:37:49   noble a joint you know smaller 6-inch

01:37:53   type thing that was more like an

01:37:54   e-reader this is way more ambitious than

01:37:57   anything people that Gaston eight kept

01:37:59   it under under really tight wraps like

01:38:02   nobody knew it definitely whereas

01:38:04   everything apple is announces more or

01:38:05   less as expected you know I mean there's

01:38:08   stuff like passbook that is news and

01:38:11   wasn't really rumor expected but it's

01:38:14   not major it's not exciting right

01:38:16   I gets its Apple has become I think

01:38:18   predictable in a very good way in a way

01:38:20   that is good for the company and I think

01:38:24   I iOS 6 and mountain lion reflect that

01:38:26   like they're very I think they're very

01:38:28   very you know good list of features

01:38:30   year-over-year very impressive 12 months

01:38:33   updates to what came before them but

01:38:35   they're not exciting is not the word I

01:38:37   would use to describe them

01:38:39   well I mean I think Microsoft is

01:38:41   interesting in that they're kind of

01:38:43   screwed

01:38:44   I'm apple is less interesting in that

01:38:48   they're on top of their game and they're

01:38:50   executing well alright it's not as

01:38:52   exciting to be the guy in the lead the

01:38:54   guy who's gonna like the race car driver

01:38:56   who's making exciting loses the guy

01:38:58   who's in second right yeah and they're

01:38:59   not just in the lead to look like a head

01:39:01   right and you know that there's it's not

01:39:04   that they're not doing interesting stuff

01:39:05   i'm sure it'll be a lot of cool stuff

01:39:07   coming out but for this you know for the

01:39:12   you know the observer microsoft is that

01:39:20   offers more drama and say no

01:39:23   exactly yeah and I think that's good i

01:39:26   think it's actually what they need to do

01:39:27   I did it makes me optimistic about their

01:39:29   their prospects

01:39:31   it would make me optimistic accept their

01:39:34   products email screwed up

01:39:35   yeah sure but at the very least I feel

01:39:38   like that the very least though it shows

01:39:39   that they're not in denial

01:39:42   yes right what would be what would be

01:39:44   sad would be if they had their head in

01:39:47   the sand and we're just comes in their

01:39:49   ears you know not I can't hear you doing

01:39:52   the same thing that they have been doing

01:39:54   you know and and just pretending that

01:39:57   that the industry hasn't totally shifted

01:39:59   and that Apple hasn't taken over the

01:40:01   penthouse suite right exactly i mean i

01:40:04   think one of the I think my favorite

01:40:07   part of that surface pro Cee'd put up

01:40:10   last night was the analysis of where the

01:40:13   money's going right I think that's

01:40:15   telling and I think you're probably

01:40:17   right that there's notice that they're

01:40:19   going to have to start caramelizing

01:40:20   their partners to get back to the you

01:40:24   know to the thicker profit margins right

01:40:25   and it's okay i really think I think

01:40:27   about it it's a classic microsoft move

01:40:29   when classic microsoft move is ballsy

01:40:32   and aggressive but and it is but it's

01:40:34   not ballsy an aggressive against apple

01:40:36   even though its competitive against

01:40:37   apple i'm sure they hope it really is

01:40:39   but it's really the that the ones that

01:40:41   they're really like punching in the face

01:40:43   are there pcom makers yeah they're going

01:40:46   to take all the money yeah well that's

01:40:47   the goal

01:40:48   yeah guy thanks for being here to

01:40:51   pleasure

01:40:51   so coming soon aged in distilled and we

01:40:55   even got that we even got a product name

01:40:56   napkin looking forward to that you've

01:40:59   got a blog kicking bear dot-com is it

01:41:02   calm yet where you often

01:41:06   well not often but occasionally right

01:41:08   very very smart stuff

01:41:09   thank you anything else that I should

01:41:12   thank you for that

01:41:16   do you drink i'm not sure i had lost

01:41:19   track

01:41:20   maybe yes let's say yes you'll be doing