20: Live From Çingleton, with Brent Simmons
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so screw the space guy will start to
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alright alright since since we're
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montreal I thought and and Brent i'm
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here with brent Simmons who he wanted me
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to introduce wanted to be cable sound
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very capable sasser papers so much
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funnier than I am right and every single
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live thing I've ever done with an
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interview thing has always been with
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cable sasser because he's brilliant
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right it's like a cheesy move
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yeah because then me was like sort of
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miserable and not really that good
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the effusive Mr Cable sasser just rubs
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off and anybody anybody would look
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friendly and and professional onstage so
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there's a lot of pressure on your brain
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yeah okay well do what I can the truth
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is I was a up a bit late last night
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entirely the fault of John's wife who
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wouldn't let me sleep anyway
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got anything with that cake you've
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already gone such a different direction
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than cable goes no I thought here's the
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thing one thing maybe people don't know
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you spent a year two years living in
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yeah yeah many years ago right here but
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I thought since we're here we're here
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today as we record it is sunday october
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fourteenth we're in montreal quebec and
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at the tail end after like the
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after-party of the singleton the second
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singleton symposium I thought it'd be
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nice if we did the whole show conducted
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the whole show in French a deco so how
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did he say welcome
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Bienvenue Bienvenue à l'heure talk show
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I think it looks showed the talk is your
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pal john grew Berra simple cable Sarah
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no fuck you nah I'm out of friends just
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that it's all I got
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alright so before I have a couple things
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I want to talk about and and over here
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there's I don't know hundred people here
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honored it seems like everybody state
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which is great thank you for saying I
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obviously we can't just recap the whole
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conference you really had to be here you
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should have been your shame on everybody
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who wasn't here you're looking right at
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me what you're all but it was really
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really good but i do think there are a
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couple of things that I picked up from
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the talks over the weekend that you
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didn't have to be here and we can we can
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use them to start the show from so the
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official theme of the conference was
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quote-unquote scale and then you know I
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think it kind of it but I think what I
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saw from seeing all of the things to me
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it was more about change
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yeah starting with Jason smells keynote
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the opening night which really talked
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about changing the technology industry
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change in the publishing industry and
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how in his role at macworld at igg it's
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sort of like the nexus of both it's all
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about the change in technology over the
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last 15 years and the change in the
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publishing industry and and I think it
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carried on from there I think juries my
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career which is talk the next morning
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was really about change in being an
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apple developer which is get out
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I mean everybody here knows I mean it's
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not the list all the ways that life has
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changed for iOS developers well there
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was no such thing as iOS developers
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right or i should say objective-c
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developing out right there yeah you know
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your life has changed you know my career
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started in my professional software
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Chris are around 95 96 and I wanted to
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be a Mac Developer at the very worst
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possible time to be a Mac Developer and
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things have certainly changed for the
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better since then
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well and I think you're a good example
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to of somebody who sort of followed the
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advice and marcos thing about your
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damn rancis thing were Michael ops thing
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was everybody here should be thinking
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that they're going to do something
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different in three years every three
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years ago your you tend to be doing
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something different
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yeah with the exception of working for
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nine years on that newswire right but
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there were three different versions
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maybe but it did it changed a lot over
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those years and you never it became a
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big hit and it was really all on your
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mac and then there was a huge change
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where it went to sinking somehow right
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right i spent a lot of time working on
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sinking before there was really any good
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sinking solutions out there course that
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we have icloud which is perfect but
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problem-solving yeah yeah no doubt
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sinking remains just one of the most
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difficult and ballbusting things to work
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on I hate it with a passion and I don't
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do it anymore
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ah another thing I thought was and in
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marco marco called his talk scaling your
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career but I really thought it would
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have fit better if titled changing your
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career in adapting your career right and
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the other underlying message I thought
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in session after session all weekend
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is that a lot of this change is not
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really your choice
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it's not you two making do you often
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have a lot of choices in life but a lot
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of it is you've got to get with the
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program because the train is leaving the
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station and if you're not on it you're
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like you're gonna get left behind but
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some it makes me think of swimming in
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the ocean so much different than
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swimming in a pool right in a pool you
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can do what you want do laps whatever in
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the ocean you have to you've got waves
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to deal with and they're going to come
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whether you're looking or not and
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whether you're ready or not
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yeah that makes me think that as soon as
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you said that I thought you were going
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to divide i was going to say there's
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that phrase rising tide lifts all boats
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rightly ads so that's good and had to
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have the people write it also the rising
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tide often like watches you doubt the
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undertow and you found yet
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indeed that you've got to be careful
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where the answer England so you've
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switched and now you're your thing right
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now your big thing you're working on is
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sport right so how many people here have
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been using glass board this weekend
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try some it's going really really all I
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mean that was for those of you listening
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at home i would say that was everybody's
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hand and there's still one guy with his
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he really likes class point ah in a
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sense I honestly I mean this in a
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sincere way like I know there's the this
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you can't get up here and talk without
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mentioning steve jobs at least once
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baked and he had that phrase you didn't
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want to make a dent in the universe
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right right so glass board has made at
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least to some extent a little dent in
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the conference going experience for
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everybody like at least in text circle
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while Sherri that keeps your Twitter
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feeds or ATM feeds a bit more clear
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since we can move all this stuff
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glassport which anyway but the most
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rewarding thing to me is seeing my peers
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and friends whose my software I've had
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that experience before with news wiring
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and Mars at it and having it again with
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glass bored you know just seeing it on
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people's phones is like that's just
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fucking awesome
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I i totally love it I don't even care
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about money at this point just that my
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friends are using my stuff I feel good
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but you still need to pay the bills so
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you've got the thing I don't need to be
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someone else has to be the glass so
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glassport started as a totally free and
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including the backend like and that's
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got to be a significant part of it yeah
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we've got a real messaging so the cost
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of that stuff have have come down a ton
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over the years I mean we're using a
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major and which is like you know one of
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these many scalable virtual things that
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better understand because I right client
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apps but it's a lot less expensive than
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it used to be two to do these backend
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services but recently you guys have
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added and you call it a pro tier i
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forget what you call a premium premium
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right uh how is that is it taken off we
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have a few customers
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yeah I i signed and by you I mean yeah I
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think it's like three
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how hard was it to you
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our part was to draw the line at where
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you switch from the free service which
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you really do want to be useful to
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everybody right because if it was all
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paid or if it was really limited there's
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no way all those hands would have gone
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up right of course I think it I think we
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took the slightly lazy way and we said
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whatever we haven't done yet
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that's for pay and whatever it is now is
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the free so pretty interesting way to do
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it so going forward most new features
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are going to be yeah yeah right not all
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the most you know and I have to admit
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you know somebody works alone its it
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unsurprising that i tend to use it like
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I put a couple screens back and then I
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come to a conference and boom drag it to
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the front screen writing to me it's it's
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like conference board like that's when i
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use glass board but you guys designed it
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also specifically with yourselves in
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mind like a eating your own dog food way
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that yep this is the way your team is
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going to communicate with each other
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yeah that'll work told ya it its are you
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know we don't use email we don't use no
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IRS here whenever we just use glass
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bored all day long and it works great as
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you know way of working together it's
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fantastic and that was the plan i mean
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we didn't set out to make a conference
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where we set out to make you know work
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group thing and yeah it's fucking great
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when you're when you're a working
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typical workday are you using the web
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interface too because there's no mac
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client for it yet
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yeah that's right its iOS and web
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well I'm i used the web mainly during
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the day because the because the iOS
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client i'm actually working on at the
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moment and it may not actually build and
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run you know so yeah I tend to use the
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yeah ah I and I asked that because it
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made maybe it should have been obvious
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well of course you're going to use the
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web because you want to use your big
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keyboard and if there's no backlight
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you're going to use the web but the
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reason i ask is because i often find
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myself it during the day while I'm
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if I'm going to check twitter or use
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twitter i will use my phone instead of
00:10:11
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something on my mac a lot of the time
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because then i'll keep it not running on
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my mac to not be distracted but it off
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it actually is like a useful way it
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almost feels like using my iphone as a
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second screen and I just keep twitter
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yeah and it kind of keeps me from using
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it more than I would if it was on my mac
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yeah it's a your phone is great for
00:10:33
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bathroom breaks and so on right it's
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perfect now i actually use it at the
00:10:36
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desk though I myself using my phone at
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my desk for specifically for Twitter
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like if I just gonna take a little break
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from the whatever i'm writing or working
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►
or reading i'll check twitter see ya as
00:10:47
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►
a as an iOS developer my phone is
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useless because it's running my software
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►
in in debug mode so yeah I want to go
00:10:56
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►
back to some of the stuff that jury had
00:10:59
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►
talked about yesterday and is for those
00:11:03
◼
►
of you don't know my drawer which used
00:11:04
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►
to work at apple recently left to go to
00:11:08
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►
black pixel worked in developer
00:11:10
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relations and you know so from a very
00:11:12
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►
recent vantage point was giving
00:11:14
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►
everybody at the conference a sort of
00:11:16
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►
here's some dope from a guy who is
00:11:19
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►
inside Apple really at the intersection
00:11:22
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of where third-party developers interact
00:11:24
◼
►
with apple and giving them some honest
00:11:26
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►
advice as to how did how to deal with
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◼
►
apple and a lot of it goes back to what
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I said about change being outside your
00:11:35
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control right so like sandbox and mac
00:11:41
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►
apps is a perfect example of that where
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developers have all sorts of problems
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►
with it it it didn't roll out as
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smoothly technically as it could have
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and it's a really hard transition you
00:11:55
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know it's definitely I think one of the
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biggest problems with it is that the mac
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has not had sandboxing for 20-some years
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right and now it does and that's a lot
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harder than iOS which debuted with this
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sandboxing mindset
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yeah we never even thought of it as
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sandboxing really it's just how it
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yea-ah injuries advice was about anybody
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to say i wrote this down and get over it
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i think i think that's what he said mike
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►
is that what you said and that's sort of
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a brash way of saying it but i do think
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you know he's kind of requisite you can
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sit there and complain
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►
about it and not get anything done or
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►
you can deal with it and move forward
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►
and I've always thought over the years
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►
like when you blog about development and
00:12:39
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►
how you approach stuff I you never get
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►
upset you didn't it maybe you do
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►
privately but like you always seem
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unruffled and even when you get a raw
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►
it's like you just don't seem to be used
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►
like well that's what I got a deal
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►
yeah right well there's you know that
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►
there's no fighting City Hall i guess
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►
the old phrase right and right so like
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►
if you you know there are things you
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just you can't change i'm not going to
00:13:03
◼
►
make I'm not personally gonna get Apple
00:13:05
◼
►
to stop sandboxing I mean so so like
00:13:09
◼
►
years ago when you were still developing
00:13:11
◼
►
that news where I would say one of your
00:13:12
◼
►
city halls that you had to fight was
00:13:14
◼
►
Google Reader which you used you can eat
00:13:16
◼
►
you guys use that newsgator as a sinking
00:13:19
◼
►
back end right yeah i mean just can you
00:13:22
◼
►
just talk some of the problems you dealt
00:13:24
◼
►
well yeah man google reader is
00:13:29
◼
►
fantastically popular RSS aggregator and
00:13:31
◼
►
we used it as are sinking back end and
00:13:33
◼
►
it has an undocumented and unsupported
00:13:37
◼
►
API and I had sworn to myself earlier in
00:13:40
◼
►
life I don't ever use undocumented
00:13:43
◼
►
unsupported api's and yet there i was
00:13:46
◼
►
suddenly doing it and I had little
00:13:48
◼
►
choice google reader was the thing that
00:13:50
◼
►
everybody used and it was it's it was a
00:13:54
◼
►
must-do feature and I lost a lot of hair
00:13:59
◼
►
and a lot of sleep and trying to get
00:14:01
◼
►
that to work and and i don't think i
00:14:04
◼
►
ever got a working all that well before
00:14:06
◼
►
I ended up selling it to the black pixel
00:14:08
◼
►
folks and now it's their headache and
00:14:10
◼
►
set up behind but but you know it was it
00:14:13
◼
►
was a thing I you know but you never do
00:14:15
◼
►
it you never publicly really you you
00:14:18
◼
►
would explain if there were deficiencies
00:14:19
◼
►
or you know you would explain as best
00:14:22
◼
►
she could be you never seem to get upset
00:14:23
◼
►
and you just like this is my hand to
00:14:25
◼
►
play right gotta move forward on exactly
00:14:27
◼
►
because life's too short to spend it
00:14:30
◼
►
bitching you gotta get work done and
00:14:32
◼
►
ship software so right and i think one
00:14:35
◼
►
of the things people you know that
00:14:38
◼
►
developers I think because they're so
00:14:42
◼
►
by definition rationally minded have a
00:14:44
◼
►
keen sense of justice and of course
00:14:47
◼
►
everybody self interested in everybody
00:14:49
◼
►
you know if it's close call wants things
00:14:53
◼
►
to go their way but I think what
00:14:55
◼
►
developers or third-party developers see
00:14:57
◼
►
and complain about with the mac app
00:15:00
◼
►
store and sandboxing is that Apple is
00:15:04
◼
►
kinda cheating them with their own apps
00:15:07
◼
►
but they totally are but but we always
00:15:09
◼
►
knew they would write I mean right
00:15:11
◼
►
because it's their store exactly right
00:15:13
◼
►
it can do whatever they want to do and
00:15:16
◼
►
so you know I I I don't even I hope this
00:15:20
◼
►
isn't getting Paul into trouble but I
00:15:22
◼
►
know Papa faucet told me that I think
00:15:24
◼
►
vision rogue amoebas audio editor had
00:15:27
◼
►
problems with sandboxing restrictions
00:15:29
◼
►
for something something that happens to
00:15:31
◼
►
be the exact same thing that garage band
00:15:33
◼
►
does tech right of any yeah and I don't
00:15:36
◼
►
know if garageband sandbox yet but the
00:15:38
◼
►
fact that it's if it isn't even sandbox
00:15:39
◼
►
get that just speaks more to the rules
00:15:42
◼
►
you know for third-party developers are
00:15:44
◼
►
not the same rules that Apple place but
00:15:46
◼
►
yeah and but we never expected that they
00:15:49
◼
►
would and anybody who did expect that
00:15:51
◼
►
apple would play by those rules is must
00:15:56
◼
►
ah one of the other things that the jury
00:16:03
◼
►
had talked about and I think it comes up
00:16:04
◼
►
a lot in a developer conference is the
00:16:06
◼
►
concept of technical debt and it
00:16:08
◼
►
manifests itself in many ways I and I
00:16:11
◼
►
think marcos talk about your career kind
00:16:13
◼
►
of touched on this certainly Michael ops
00:16:15
◼
►
thing I did to wear if you're too
00:16:20
◼
►
attached to what you've done to the way
00:16:22
◼
►
things were to what you were good at you
00:16:25
◼
►
can really get into trouble because the
00:16:27
◼
►
world around you
00:16:28
◼
►
moves forward right right and one of the
00:16:31
◼
►
things you it's like a repeating things
00:16:32
◼
►
like it always comes up is that you
00:16:34
◼
►
Brent Simmons love to delete code hat
00:16:38
◼
►
that's what gets me up in the morning I
00:16:40
◼
►
i love deleting code almost more than
00:16:42
◼
►
anything else you know I i I've written
00:16:45
◼
►
some wonderful clever great things that
00:16:48
◼
►
that then the OS add support for and I
00:16:51
◼
►
can just delete those which she said the
00:16:53
◼
►
thing about the table cells
00:16:55
◼
►
so in the last person that needs work
00:16:58
◼
►
for mac i did i did you know a
00:17:01
◼
►
uitableview like thing on the Mac you
00:17:04
◼
►
know so it was a you know a table that
00:17:05
◼
►
use vuze instead of cells and it had the
00:17:07
◼
►
same dq'ing mechanism and all that kind
00:17:10
◼
►
of stuff and it was really fast i tested
00:17:12
◼
►
it tested with a million rows and did
00:17:15
◼
►
everything and it was it is magical I
00:17:17
◼
►
loved it was some of the coolest UI code
00:17:19
◼
►
I ever wrote and then they added support
00:17:21
◼
►
for that in the OS and I could go gon
00:17:23
◼
►
get rid of it
00:17:24
◼
►
delete the whole thing and I think your
00:17:26
◼
►
natural instincts always lead you to
00:17:30
◼
►
I think you're a little off the charts
00:17:32
◼
►
in that direction where you don't need
00:17:33
◼
►
it's not that you have like this regret
00:17:35
◼
►
like oh and I'd that was beautiful code
00:17:37
◼
►
now i have to maybe I should delete it
00:17:39
◼
►
you're like happy to do i acttally i get
00:17:42
◼
►
a thrill out of deleting my best code
00:17:44
◼
►
yeah I think I would if I were writing
00:17:46
◼
►
code for living I would probably be more
00:17:48
◼
►
likely to be at the other end and be too
00:17:50
◼
►
attached to the thing i did like I do
00:17:54
◼
►
and I if I have a weakness as a one-man
00:17:56
◼
►
show writing operation is that I i
00:17:59
◼
►
probably should delete more of what I've
00:18:02
◼
►
written sometimes if it interrupts the
00:18:06
◼
►
confeds it's a good passage and I feel
00:18:08
◼
►
like there's something good about it but
00:18:09
◼
►
it might make the whole piece better if
00:18:11
◼
►
I just took it out I'm less likely to
00:18:13
◼
►
kill that I probably should be here than
00:18:16
◼
►
I would be if I had in a separate editor
00:18:18
◼
►
or something like that
00:18:19
◼
►
well you know that there's old writing
00:18:20
◼
►
advice is it kill your darlings yeah
00:18:22
◼
►
something like that murder your
00:18:24
◼
►
daughter's murder your darlings or you
00:18:25
◼
►
know when I was very young my journalism
00:18:30
◼
►
teacher said Brent find the best sense
00:18:32
◼
►
in that and and delete that and then
00:18:35
◼
►
chip what chip the rest of it right you
00:18:37
◼
►
know because um and and she was fighting
00:18:39
◼
►
against the tendency to you don't get
00:18:41
◼
►
too attached to some you know clever bit
00:18:43
◼
►
of wordplay or something you know it and
00:18:46
◼
►
it then stop is stronger when you get
00:18:48
◼
►
rid of that right and I've one thing I
00:18:49
◼
►
do find myself doing often is deleting
00:18:51
◼
►
the first sentence of a piece which I am
00:18:53
◼
►
attached to em I because it's something
00:18:56
◼
►
that's good and it got me started and
00:18:58
◼
►
broke broke the chains and got the got
00:19:01
◼
►
me actually moving my fingers on the
00:19:03
◼
►
keyboard but then when I go back and
00:19:05
◼
►
read it all over again it really really
00:19:07
◼
►
better if i start with the second
00:19:09
◼
►
paragraph yeah yeah it happens all the
00:19:11
◼
►
yeah the real lead is is is the second
00:19:13
◼
►
sentence writing paragraph something
00:19:15
◼
►
overly clever and and off off the tone
00:19:18
◼
►
of the rest of the piece drivers i could
00:19:26
◼
►
probably a good were well we're about 20
00:19:28
◼
►
minutes and so why don't I take the time
00:19:30
◼
►
now and i'll do the sponsor break we
00:19:31
◼
►
only have one sponsor for this very
00:19:33
◼
►
special show the magazine from our good
00:19:37
◼
►
friend and we've already mentioned a few
00:19:39
◼
►
times the show Marco Arment so where's
00:19:43
◼
►
Marco think he's out there to areas so
00:19:45
◼
►
the magazine is really interesting it's
00:19:48
◼
►
it's marco has taken what sort of the
00:19:51
◼
►
skeleton of instapaper which i'm going
00:19:54
◼
►
to assume everybody out there knows and
00:19:58
◼
►
instead of making a thing where you send
00:20:00
◼
►
articles to it and and stash it and read
00:20:02
◼
►
it he's taken the skeleton of his
00:20:03
◼
►
articles and here's a nice presentation
00:20:05
◼
►
area and I really nice reading interface
00:20:07
◼
►
and he's gone into publishing himself
00:20:11
◼
►
and he's had you know is one issue is
00:20:14
◼
►
out right now as we do the show there's
00:20:16
◼
►
there's one issue and it's just great
00:20:19
◼
►
it's loaded up with singleton talent
00:20:22
◼
►
we've got got an article by our friend
00:20:25
◼
►
good guy English we've got article and
00:20:27
◼
►
baseball and text from Jason Snell who
00:20:32
◼
►
is the other would the Oh Michael lobby
00:20:36
◼
►
yeah I analysis pain who is not here
00:20:40
◼
►
shame on him
00:20:40
◼
►
why doesn't always pay not here if
00:20:42
◼
►
everybody else from the issue i don't
00:20:44
◼
►
think i've seen in front since seafloor
00:20:45
◼
►
probably i don't know but it was a
00:20:47
◼
►
really great article that was for
00:20:49
◼
►
dynamite articles all over the place and
00:20:53
◼
►
are not all over the place but of widely
00:20:55
◼
►
different topics and it's just a real
00:20:59
◼
►
simple idea and the simple idea
00:21:00
◼
►
financially is buck 99 would have but 99
00:21:05
◼
►
how often a month buck ninety-nine a
00:21:08
◼
►
month and you get two issues a month of
00:21:11
◼
►
really thoughtful really interesting
00:21:13
◼
►
articles and it it seems so simple and i
00:21:20
◼
►
think it's going to
00:21:21
◼
►
like Marco in his introduction said I do
00:21:23
◼
►
i know that this is gonna work I don't
00:21:25
◼
►
yeah but i it's going to and it has all
00:21:27
◼
►
sorts of stuff that I think is just it
00:21:29
◼
►
sounds ridiculous that this is the sort
00:21:31
◼
►
of thing that deserves praise but you
00:21:34
◼
►
can like select text right there like
00:21:38
◼
►
how crazy is it that that's actually a
00:21:40
◼
►
feature deserving praise in an app for
00:21:43
◼
►
reading when the OS has a feature that
00:21:45
◼
►
like you select a word and you can get a
00:21:47
◼
►
little button to define if you know
00:21:49
◼
►
somebody uses the word you don't know if
00:21:53
◼
►
you subscribed to redo read the magazine
00:21:54
◼
►
and I i will but I've been traveling so
00:21:57
◼
►
I been you know too busy to actually get
00:21:59
◼
►
in front of my devices but I will as
00:22:01
◼
►
soon as i get home very much looking
00:22:03
◼
►
forward to it I i love the am I like the
00:22:07
◼
►
model where he has like 30 days or
00:22:10
◼
►
something exclusive rights and then then
00:22:13
◼
►
the person can republish it but i think
00:22:15
◼
►
what that does is it
00:22:16
◼
►
it encourages the writers write
00:22:18
◼
►
something timeless rather than just you
00:22:21
◼
►
know that news that the news of the day
00:22:23
◼
►
you know their rights something that
00:22:25
◼
►
will last a while and right that's good
00:22:27
◼
►
call it the magazine the idea for it
00:22:29
◼
►
fits or fill so many needs that have
00:22:33
◼
►
been left as everybody has moved towards
00:22:36
◼
►
blogging and tweeting and doing these
00:22:40
◼
►
things that when you hit the publish
00:22:42
◼
►
button the people who is intended for
00:22:45
◼
►
can start reading it
00:22:46
◼
►
seconds later and you know there's
00:22:51
◼
►
obviously and it that publishing model
00:22:54
◼
►
obviously and even in my case definitely
00:22:56
◼
►
leads me to writing things that are more
00:22:58
◼
►
about the here and now or this week or
00:23:01
◼
►
anything that just came out the two days
00:23:02
◼
►
ago or the thing that now we all know
00:23:04
◼
►
have heard is coming out on october 23rd
00:23:08
◼
►
on as opposed to thinking about things
00:23:11
◼
►
that just the audience at home knows I'm
00:23:13
◼
►
John's holding an ipad mini as we speak
00:23:17
◼
►
that's where I've got my show notes and
00:23:22
◼
►
it does i mean and these and i would
00:23:24
◼
►
have I would say 44 in the first four
00:23:27
◼
►
articles in the issue one of the
00:23:30
◼
►
magazine all for them if Marco had like
00:23:32
◼
►
taking one of them and put it in his
00:23:34
◼
►
pocket editorial pocket and published it
00:23:37
◼
►
in issue 26 a year from now it would
00:23:41
◼
►
still worst anniversary issue it would
00:23:43
◼
►
be just as timeless and would fit just
00:23:45
◼
►
as well I bet he does have articles in
00:23:48
◼
►
his party probably tell you should
00:23:49
◼
►
probably so yeah so anyway everybody out
00:23:53
◼
►
there if you haven't already check out
00:23:55
◼
►
the magazine I you can go to the app
00:23:59
◼
►
store and search for the magazine and
00:24:01
◼
►
you won't find it
00:24:02
◼
►
ok but maybe by the time to show airs
00:24:05
◼
►
you will it is a weird problem with
00:24:07
◼
►
naming it and that i will add this is
00:24:09
◼
►
that before he launched Marco ran the
00:24:11
◼
►
idea by me and I I I poo-pooed the title
00:24:18
◼
►
the magazine as being too generic in a
00:24:20
◼
►
chat mr. talk shows and that's exactly
00:24:22
◼
►
and then as soon as I hit return i
00:24:25
◼
►
realized i had to immediately type this
00:24:27
◼
►
coming from the guy whose podcast is
00:24:29
◼
►
called the talk show and I was like so
00:24:32
◼
►
and then i read like next line was like
00:24:33
◼
►
so now what we're going to call you the
00:24:35
◼
►
John now i was like i went from I think
00:24:38
◼
►
it's too generic and i wrote this coming
00:24:40
◼
►
from the guys podcast is the talk show
00:24:42
◼
►
and I wrote so great title haha and i
00:24:46
◼
►
believe the what what's the URL i don't
00:24:48
◼
►
have it handy i should have
00:24:49
◼
►
are you sure
00:24:55
◼
►
so Marco says the the URL is the dash
00:24:59
◼
►
magazine dot org and go there I door is
00:25:02
◼
►
a non-profit alright
00:25:06
◼
►
you know people used to tell me with
00:25:08
◼
►
daring fireball net because it used to
00:25:09
◼
►
be i think that the original I can
00:25:11
◼
►
definition of dotnet was you had to be
00:25:13
◼
►
like a sort of like a service provider
00:25:15
◼
►
or yeah I think yeah and dogs had to be
00:25:17
◼
►
nonprofits and i still wanna dot edu for
00:25:21
◼
►
instance not even you
00:25:22
◼
►
it's a high school mixology yeah I was
00:25:26
◼
►
gonna say I'm I definitely frightened
00:25:29
◼
►
don't know what you learned at brents
00:25:31
◼
►
Evans done it you i also want printed
00:25:33
◼
►
and start gov as I'm sure that brendan
00:25:38
◼
►
is dead you all the ads are from lawyers
00:25:40
◼
►
bail bondsman i did another podcast i
00:25:46
◼
►
talked about going to jail i did hear
00:25:48
◼
►
that if you've read that one was pretty
00:25:51
◼
►
that's David Lex unprofessional and this
00:25:53
◼
►
is their little plug
00:25:54
◼
►
yeah go ahead and i'm done that was a
00:25:57
◼
►
short plug I so one of the things that I
00:26:05
◼
►
find interesting and I feel like
00:26:06
◼
►
everybody has to deal with it let's say
00:26:08
◼
►
I would just say this is what has been a
00:26:10
◼
►
lot of talk this because it's new and
00:26:11
◼
►
everybody isn't really sure whether it's
00:26:13
◼
►
gonna take off its like it just seems
00:26:14
◼
►
like this is AB dotnet what was it
00:26:19
◼
►
what's your take on app.net I don't know
00:26:23
◼
►
if it's going to live
00:26:24
◼
►
I like it a lot because i like the
00:26:27
◼
►
service and i really wanted Twitter to
00:26:30
◼
►
be the thing that I loved because it was
00:26:32
◼
►
the thing I love for a long time but I
00:26:33
◼
►
just don't love the company and it
00:26:38
◼
►
seemed that when netbotz came out alpha
00:26:41
◼
►
dynamic what the hell is this thing
00:26:42
◼
►
called that's charlie suddenly there's a
00:26:46
◼
►
lot of people actually using it and I'm
00:26:47
◼
►
like I'm not checking twitter anymore
00:26:49
◼
►
i'm using the ADN or whatever the hell
00:26:51
◼
►
it's called here there is a dad this is
00:26:55
◼
►
like where I fail as a talk show host
00:26:56
◼
►
but there's like three things about
00:26:58
◼
►
app.net that I i want to talk about and
00:27:00
◼
►
none of them really seemed to lead to
00:27:02
◼
►
each other and you just touch on all
00:27:04
◼
►
three of them so let me just say them
00:27:06
◼
►
and you guys can remind me when we go
00:27:08
◼
►
off on a tangent one of them to go back
00:27:10
◼
►
but one of them is a terrible name but
00:27:12
◼
►
it's not even a name that's like one of
00:27:15
◼
►
them is that if twitter
00:27:17
◼
►
had behaved and what seems to be the
00:27:19
◼
►
most obvious way in the way that they
00:27:20
◼
►
should they're never be any room for it
00:27:22
◼
►
to happen we'd never be talking about it
00:27:24
◼
►
right and the third one is that it's
00:27:30
◼
►
like it's been a great little science
00:27:32
◼
►
experiment since net but came out about
00:27:34
◼
►
the importance of apps
00:27:37
◼
►
yeah girl isn't web clients yeah so
00:27:40
◼
►
those are the three things let's talk
00:27:42
◼
►
about the name first which is terrible
00:27:44
◼
►
nobody even knows what to call it like
00:27:46
◼
►
yeah some people call app.net some
00:27:47
◼
►
people call it
00:27:48
◼
►
Etienne which comes from app.net like
00:27:51
◼
►
I've never even seen that before where
00:27:52
◼
►
the dot and something's name becomes
00:27:55
◼
►
part of its initials I've never seen
00:27:57
◼
►
that people are grasping at straws that
00:27:59
◼
►
hit anything to give it an identity
00:28:01
◼
►
right and then their reference
00:28:03
◼
►
implementation of a client for the
00:28:05
◼
►
service they called alpha and so it's
00:28:09
◼
►
like the URL is alpha dot app.net and
00:28:12
◼
►
then there was some confusion maybe the
00:28:13
◼
►
thing is called alpha and nobody really
00:28:15
◼
►
right they can't go into beta now
00:28:16
◼
►
however because alpha is the name I and
00:28:21
◼
►
I forget I was just talking about it i
00:28:23
◼
►
think the first night that I was here in
00:28:24
◼
►
Montreal we and and just how it's almost
00:28:30
◼
►
impossibly generic the name app.net
00:28:33
◼
►
right because everything if you're
00:28:34
◼
►
writing software is a nap and when is
00:28:37
◼
►
the last time any of us has had a new
00:28:39
◼
►
app that hasn't in some way use the net
00:28:43
◼
►
right like I'm trying to think like even
00:28:46
◼
►
games games are still connecting with
00:28:49
◼
►
game center and sending saved stuff like
00:28:51
◼
►
it really is almost impossibly generic
00:28:56
◼
►
yeah yeah and you could look at it in
00:28:59
◼
►
one way I all the personality for
00:29:01
◼
►
whatever it's called is going to come to
00:29:03
◼
►
the clients when I think of whatever
00:29:06
◼
►
this is called I picture the net bot
00:29:08
◼
►
icon right that's saying that as you
00:29:12
◼
►
know it famously happened with Twitter
00:29:14
◼
►
in the early days while when is crack
00:29:20
◼
►
yeah and for Twitter X and up we can't
00:29:23
◼
►
see you again
00:29:24
◼
►
all right areas if it had been for
00:29:27
◼
►
twitterrific I would never I mean I saw
00:29:29
◼
►
terrific price on Twitter and I'm like I
00:29:31
◼
►
like this app will have to do you have
00:29:33
◼
►
been famously well maybe not famously
00:29:36
◼
►
actually much to the injustice of it but
00:29:40
◼
►
Twitter itself didn't use any kind of
00:29:43
◼
►
bird iconography at all not the
00:29:46
◼
►
silhouette or anything they were using a
00:29:49
◼
►
lowercase T bubble font thing as their
00:29:53
◼
►
logo and twitterrific shipped with
00:29:55
◼
►
what's the bird's name Ali the bird and
00:30:02
◼
►
it was such a spectacularly perfect icon
00:30:05
◼
►
for the twitter experience that all of a
00:30:08
◼
►
sudden it became one of the most like
00:30:10
◼
►
ripped off things right in in the
00:30:14
◼
►
universe like everybody all across the
00:30:16
◼
►
web when they would link to their
00:30:18
◼
►
twitter account would put the
00:30:19
◼
►
twitterrific icon there as a
00:30:21
◼
►
representation of Twitter mm I don't
00:30:23
◼
►
know how that escaped the Twitter people
00:30:25
◼
►
they named their service up to the sound
00:30:26
◼
►
of bird makes and didn't use a bird
00:30:30
◼
►
I don't know it's one of those great you
00:30:32
◼
►
know I like like so many great ideas
00:30:33
◼
►
it's so obvious in hindsight but you
00:30:35
◼
►
know it's it's like I've forgotten fact
00:30:38
◼
►
that it was the icon factory that
00:30:39
◼
►
polygon in the word tweet i guess was an
00:30:42
◼
►
icon factory thing and and like 10 or 20
00:30:45
◼
►
other things we all have to thank Craig
00:30:47
◼
►
and his people for him and and because
00:30:50
◼
►
of all the royalties that icon factories
00:30:53
◼
►
getting from Twitter that's why Craig
00:30:55
◼
►
will be the one who issues the refunds
00:30:57
◼
►
for everybody's thanks Craig singleton
00:31:05
◼
►
Craig says the medium on his private jet
00:31:10
◼
►
alright so the name stinks and I think
00:31:13
◼
►
names matter i think names matter
00:31:15
◼
►
yeah i was on the other hand I could
00:31:17
◼
►
their attitude seems be hey we're gonna
00:31:19
◼
►
make a generic service and developers
00:31:22
◼
►
are the ones who are going to add
00:31:23
◼
►
personality to it i don't know if that
00:31:25
◼
►
will work but as a developer i kind of
00:31:28
◼
►
don't mind their humility there right
00:31:30
◼
►
I do I i do but i do think that it also
00:31:32
◼
►
speaks to one of its it as it seeps into
00:31:37
◼
►
background of your consciousness what a
00:31:38
◼
►
tremendous advantage twitter has that
00:31:41
◼
►
they own this word tweet which acts as
00:31:45
◼
►
both a noun and a verb and it's a thing
00:31:47
◼
►
so with these things that you send to
00:31:49
◼
►
Twitter our tweets and when you do them
00:31:51
◼
►
you're tweeting and that's really really
00:31:54
◼
►
powerful psychological advantage you
00:31:57
◼
►
know right and very much along the lines
00:31:59
◼
►
that you know doing a web search is
00:32:02
◼
►
called googling right chair
00:32:03
◼
►
yeah I never Google something that thing
00:32:06
◼
►
yeah i do it you know i think that i
00:32:09
◼
►
would i would easily find myself saying
00:32:11
◼
►
that I did yeah they're out of course it
00:32:12
◼
►
so i'm saying though is that dragon his
00:32:18
◼
►
team needs to step up and come up in
00:32:20
◼
►
invent a personality in names and stuff
00:32:22
◼
►
44 alpha tonight right
00:32:25
◼
►
so second thing is that just the Indians
00:32:28
◼
►
more mouth maybe not more important
00:32:29
◼
►
because i do think names are important
00:32:30
◼
►
but the the honestly indignation that I
00:32:34
◼
►
feel towards the way twitter is is
00:32:36
◼
►
acting towards third party developers
00:32:38
◼
►
and their api's and it's ink brought to
00:32:43
◼
►
light by this app.net thing and as these
00:32:45
◼
►
app.net clients start appearing where
00:32:49
◼
►
it's explicit not even implicit it's not
00:32:52
◼
►
like you have to kind of like swinton
00:32:53
◼
►
think about it it's like absolutely
00:32:55
◼
►
clear as day one of the few things it's
00:32:57
◼
►
as clear as day in the twitter api
00:32:58
◼
►
guidelines is if you're using the
00:33:01
◼
►
twitter api you cannot enter mix the
00:33:05
◼
►
tweets that you're getting or any of the
00:33:07
◼
►
data you're getting from twitter with
00:33:08
◼
►
the content from anything that even any
00:33:11
◼
►
other service
00:33:12
◼
►
yeah and that to me is such bullshit it
00:33:14
◼
►
is exactly like an email provider like
00:33:17
◼
►
imagine an email provider that said you
00:33:18
◼
►
cannot put any email from us into a
00:33:22
◼
►
unified inbox
00:33:24
◼
►
yeah imagine google saying that about
00:33:26
◼
►
retail clients of something yet that it
00:33:29
◼
►
just makes no sense because it's just
00:33:30
◼
►
totally and again and you know and and
00:33:34
◼
►
people often call me out on this because
00:33:36
◼
►
you know I i will write pieces that were
00:33:41
◼
►
i'm not i really don't see myself as
00:33:43
◼
►
defending apple's app store i'm trying
00:33:45
◼
►
to explain what they're thinking and I'm
00:33:48
◼
►
so I do understand I'm not
00:33:50
◼
►
I'm not saying Twitter can't do this you
00:33:52
◼
►
know or even that they're morally wrong
00:33:55
◼
►
for doing i just think that they're
00:33:56
◼
►
being foolish because I think being that
00:34:00
◼
►
what's the word showering and arrogant
00:34:04
◼
►
sure it will say they've lost the love
00:34:06
◼
►
of this room and and many rooms like it
00:34:08
◼
►
exactly it is you know it's easy to say
00:34:12
◼
►
that that hardcore geeks don't matter
00:34:14
◼
►
much but what we do because we tell our
00:34:16
◼
►
parents and siblings and family
00:34:18
◼
►
what software to use and and you know we
00:34:21
◼
►
have an outsized amount of power and
00:34:24
◼
►
when you lose the geeks you lose a lot I
00:34:28
◼
►
well they've turned our backs on a lot
00:34:29
◼
►
of people who truly had and even have
00:34:32
◼
►
remaining in to some extent but its
00:34:34
◼
►
dwindling affection for twitter right
00:34:36
◼
►
right like a really liked them and
00:34:40
◼
►
they've just turned their backs on that
00:34:41
◼
►
and it just seems like that is something
00:34:43
◼
►
that they seem to be acting as though
00:34:45
◼
►
it's irrelevant now whereas I don't
00:34:48
◼
►
think that's the case at all
00:34:49
◼
►
I i think that they should be to the top
00:34:52
◼
►
levels absolutely positively like hey we
00:34:55
◼
►
need to actually have like one of these
00:34:57
◼
►
like change courses right now thing
00:35:00
◼
►
because of just even the extent that
00:35:02
◼
►
app.net got off the ground whether it
00:35:05
◼
►
stays up like i said it's will see it
00:35:07
◼
►
seems iffy but the fact that there was
00:35:08
◼
►
any enthusiasm at all for it really
00:35:11
◼
►
should have I think if i were there i
00:35:13
◼
►
would be like this is this is awful
00:35:15
◼
►
we've you know this is existence proof
00:35:17
◼
►
that we have screwed this up
00:35:18
◼
►
mm yep and into me just you know it just
00:35:21
◼
►
seems so ridiculous like why wouldn't
00:35:23
◼
►
you let them integrate tweets into some
00:35:25
◼
►
other thing if that's what they want to
00:35:27
◼
►
sure you know let a thousand flowers
00:35:30
◼
►
bloom right let all know let people
00:35:32
◼
►
write all kinds of software it's just
00:35:34
◼
►
going to make your your service all the
00:35:36
◼
►
more valuable and beloved right and
00:35:38
◼
►
they're like no I and you know and it
00:35:41
◼
►
off tonight I think it easily comes back
00:35:43
◼
►
to you know a lot of the stuff you've
00:35:45
◼
►
done like RSS and now the difference is
00:35:47
◼
►
twitter is in a unique position where
00:35:49
◼
►
they can do this because they are become
00:35:51
◼
►
so popular they are big that they can do
00:35:54
◼
►
it and they can make you know developers
00:35:58
◼
►
write separate apps for appt dotnet
00:36:01
◼
►
then Twitter even though it would make a
00:36:04
◼
►
lot more sense if they would just
00:36:05
◼
►
integrated into the same app right I but
00:36:10
◼
►
it reminds me of publishers who like
00:36:12
◼
►
wouldn't want to publish RSS feeds or
00:36:15
◼
►
wouldn't want to publish full data RSS
00:36:17
◼
►
feeds and of course there's are good
00:36:19
◼
►
reasons there are reasons you think like
00:36:20
◼
►
we'll all of our ads are coming this
00:36:22
◼
►
other way we don't have ads in the RSS
00:36:24
◼
►
we don't know what to do but when you
00:36:26
◼
►
like try to take your stuff and keep it
00:36:28
◼
►
in your own little box it's good stuff
00:36:30
◼
►
never happens because the users people
00:36:32
◼
►
that I say users but just people want
00:36:34
◼
►
this stuff to just let me put it where I
00:36:37
◼
►
want right right exactly
00:36:39
◼
►
yeah and trying to control stuff in that
00:36:42
◼
►
way is some swimming against the time
00:36:45
◼
►
that's rarely works out I and I you know
00:36:50
◼
►
the netnews wiser net new newswires a
00:36:52
◼
►
perfect example where my life a year
00:36:56
◼
►
before to a year after the existence of
00:36:58
◼
►
netnewswire was that i was suddenly
00:37:00
◼
►
reading all sorts of stuff not on the
00:37:03
◼
►
website where it was written which may
00:37:05
◼
►
be you know in some ways was a loss for
00:37:08
◼
►
those websites if I previously read them
00:37:10
◼
►
but reading so much more in the
00:37:12
◼
►
aggregate including a lot of sources
00:37:14
◼
►
where I wouldn't be reading them
00:37:16
◼
►
regularly at all and at least I'm
00:37:17
◼
►
reading right and so I can't help but
00:37:19
◼
►
think that it was a win for so many
00:37:21
◼
►
websites not that me in particular was
00:37:24
◼
►
reading it but that every you know
00:37:26
◼
►
everybody using that newswire was really
00:37:28
◼
►
poor reading a lot more then than they
00:37:30
◼
►
could have before yeah right
00:37:31
◼
►
I and you know and then it comes down to
00:37:33
◼
►
you know there's nothing just too many
00:37:35
◼
►
people but you know people who accuses
00:37:38
◼
►
app like Instapaper of somehow was
00:37:42
◼
►
surfing or Flipboard or something like
00:37:45
◼
►
that of stepping on the toes are pointed
00:37:47
◼
►
out it's really know it's there just
00:37:49
◼
►
giving people other options for
00:37:52
◼
►
consuming your content and shouldn't you
00:37:53
◼
►
just be thrilled that people want to
00:37:55
◼
►
consume want to read your stuff
00:37:56
◼
►
yeah absolutely hopefully that's your
00:37:58
◼
►
call and if not choose another business
00:38:02
◼
►
i think and and I just think Twitter is
00:38:04
◼
►
totally lost it so what was my third
00:38:05
◼
►
thing my third thing was oh I don't know
00:38:07
◼
►
but i have a dip to Costello Castello's
00:38:10
◼
►
story actually gotten that is good and
00:38:12
◼
►
I think I I haven't thought about this
00:38:15
◼
►
in years but it was at acosta Costolo
00:38:18
◼
►
CEO and your twitter chief executive
00:38:22
◼
►
officer and chief dick officer of bread
00:38:24
◼
►
right so it's easy to not like him
00:38:27
◼
►
because he's in charge of this whole
00:38:29
◼
►
thing and it seems awful but the first
00:38:31
◼
►
time I met him was years ago and it was
00:38:33
◼
►
evening at adler or the first c4 perhaps
00:38:36
◼
►
and times in chicago and I'd just
00:38:40
◼
►
started working in newsgator and
00:38:42
◼
►
feedburner was in Chicago and dick was
00:38:44
◼
►
at feedburner and both those companies
00:38:46
◼
►
were funded by Brad Feld and I don't
00:38:49
◼
►
know mobius whatever he was doing at the
00:38:51
◼
►
time so you know Brad encouraged me to
00:38:53
◼
►
go to the paper printer offices and meet
00:38:56
◼
►
dick and everybody and so I go into
00:38:57
◼
►
their office and it's a big open space
00:38:59
◼
►
and I I walk in there and I can't
00:39:02
◼
►
remember his dick or somebody else um
00:39:04
◼
►
introduces me to the entire company all
00:39:06
◼
►
at once and this is C probably 2,000 for
00:39:10
◼
►
something like that news when I was just
00:39:11
◼
►
starting to become a really big hit and
00:39:13
◼
►
of course the guys at feedburner had
00:39:15
◼
►
stats on the head knew exactly how big
00:39:17
◼
►
it was and the entire office applauded
00:39:20
◼
►
me and I was just really really fucking
00:39:25
◼
►
cool i just like for being the guy who
00:39:28
◼
►
wrote the software you know that added
00:39:30
◼
►
loved that and then we went out to lunch
00:39:32
◼
►
and dick was charming and funny i think
00:39:35
◼
►
is a theater background and I had a
00:39:37
◼
►
great time and it was it's only years
00:39:39
◼
►
later I'm like I want to kick it down
00:39:43
◼
►
it's just it's it's so easy you have
00:39:47
◼
►
right to go with the joke about his name
00:39:49
◼
►
but really you can't help it right yeah
00:39:52
◼
►
I had a torch here church dick
00:39:55
◼
►
areas if I had an uncle dick my father's
00:40:01
◼
►
my father's brother was was Richard
00:40:04
◼
►
grouper and and everybody calling dick
00:40:06
◼
►
but he was a little bit older even than
00:40:08
◼
►
my dad and he died a couple years ago
00:40:10
◼
►
but he was up that generation now he was
00:40:14
◼
►
like you know dick cheney and and those
00:40:16
◼
►
guys Sammy was you know that grandpa
00:40:19
◼
►
yeah Davis him i was a good name back
00:40:21
◼
►
then but yeah totally
00:40:22
◼
►
yeah yeah ma a white mug with black
00:40:25
◼
►
lettering big bull letters dick cheney
00:40:28
◼
►
drank his coffee out of that every
00:40:30
◼
►
morning and I'm like that's a hell of a
00:40:31
◼
►
good way to start at center for some
00:40:34
◼
►
reason the name seems to have fallen out
00:40:35
◼
►
of favor in recent decades though let's
00:40:39
◼
►
bring it back alright name your kids
00:40:41
◼
►
dick even the girls all right so last
00:40:45
◼
►
thing on apt and we can probably wrap up
00:40:47
◼
►
the show with it but I didn't think that
00:40:48
◼
►
it was really an interesting experiment
00:40:51
◼
►
and I certainly have the belief that
00:40:55
◼
►
native clients native for the mac native
00:40:58
◼
►
for iOS are the way to go for so many to
00:41:02
◼
►
it if at all possible that's the way to
00:41:04
◼
►
go and it just makes everything better
00:41:06
◼
►
latency is better interface is better
00:41:09
◼
►
you can you're less restricted about
00:41:11
◼
►
where things go you can make things look
00:41:13
◼
►
just right and as hard as it may be and
00:41:16
◼
►
you can go back to you know Brad's talk
00:41:20
◼
►
about how hard it is to get things
00:41:21
◼
►
looking exactly right when you're truly
00:41:23
◼
►
a perfectionist
00:41:24
◼
►
it certainly is a lot how hard it can be
00:41:27
◼
►
how much work way easier with a native
00:41:29
◼
►
app then with with the web a great
00:41:31
◼
►
example i think was tweeted or outfit or
00:41:33
◼
►
something by I think Matt trance you put
00:41:35
◼
►
up a screenshot of that wet wet platform
00:41:38
◼
►
dot org or something
00:41:40
◼
►
have you seen this downside well it's
00:41:42
◼
►
talking about the web as a platform and
00:41:44
◼
►
of course if you open it on your iphone
00:41:46
◼
►
it it is completely fucked up that like
00:41:49
◼
►
that like yep and that pretty much just
00:41:51
◼
►
nails it you know and and it i also ties
00:41:55
◼
►
in again to Marco's talk from yesterday
00:41:58
◼
►
and Marco at one point he was talking
00:42:00
◼
►
about a conference that he had spoken
00:42:02
◼
►
and he didn't mention because I i I'd it
00:42:05
◼
►
was ended up being a rather unpleasant
00:42:06
◼
►
experience but as he described it
00:42:08
◼
►
it was a a conference for web developers
00:42:12
◼
►
and web designers and Marco you know who
00:42:15
◼
►
he did work at tumblr on but you know is
00:42:19
◼
►
certainly far more well known for his
00:42:21
◼
►
work on clients like guys to paper on
00:42:23
◼
►
and and more or less the message he gave
00:42:26
◼
►
was you guys shouldn't be thinking so
00:42:29
◼
►
much about the web you should be
00:42:30
◼
►
thinking about what's the best
00:42:31
◼
►
experience for users and a lot of cases
00:42:33
◼
►
it's going to be a nap a native app and
00:42:37
◼
►
I maybe even only a native app and he
00:42:41
◼
►
held up Instagram as an example here I
00:42:44
◼
►
am getting my instant papers and
00:42:45
◼
►
instagrams exactly right
00:42:47
◼
►
so far i have made a mistake I and I
00:42:50
◼
►
think that pixma tourism to sponsor to
00:42:52
◼
►
yeah I want to hear that in person we
00:42:54
◼
►
know i would say with a French accent
00:42:55
◼
►
come back pics of mixing mentor and make
00:42:57
◼
►
sure this will be stopped
00:42:59
◼
►
yeah but I thought that and I I thought
00:43:04
◼
►
Marco didn't extrapolate that though to
00:43:06
◼
►
the right degree of Marco is you know is
00:43:07
◼
►
usually he's a nice guy but he is not
00:43:10
◼
►
artificially humble is that he kind of
00:43:13
◼
►
took away from that I gave these guys
00:43:14
◼
►
this message and he got beat the ends up
00:43:16
◼
►
long story short heat that this
00:43:17
◼
►
conference gives all the attendees get
00:43:19
◼
►
to rank the speakers and Marco came out
00:43:21
◼
►
ranked very very poorly or dead last or
00:43:24
◼
►
something like that
00:43:24
◼
►
not because what he said wasn't true and
00:43:26
◼
►
said he was exactly true and Instagram
00:43:28
◼
►
was a remarkably app thing because they
00:43:31
◼
►
sold for a billion fucking dollars
00:43:32
◼
►
yeah i mean are now it's like and then
00:43:34
◼
►
they were hundred million building
00:43:36
◼
►
facing users to yeah but yeah but then
00:43:38
◼
►
they have they still have more and more
00:43:40
◼
►
users and it is by all accounts the most
00:43:45
◼
►
successful social networking thing to
00:43:48
◼
►
have launched in the last couple of
00:43:49
◼
►
years on so it was a great example he
00:43:52
◼
►
was exactly that that's the thing is he
00:43:54
◼
►
should draw satisfaction from the fact
00:43:56
◼
►
that he was dead right
00:43:57
◼
►
the reason he got ranked poorly by the
00:43:59
◼
►
speaker's wasn't cuz what he said wasn't
00:44:00
◼
►
good advice and it wasn't true is
00:44:02
◼
►
because it wasn't what they wanted to
00:44:03
◼
►
hear exactly what is it that this crowd
00:44:06
◼
►
doesn't want to hear that we can tell
00:44:07
◼
►
them there has to be something
00:44:11
◼
►
bars closed bars plus
00:44:14
◼
►
I can't think of anything yeah I don't
00:44:16
◼
►
have been something i think but i think
00:44:18
◼
►
that's one of the great things about
00:44:19
◼
►
this conference though is that people
00:44:20
◼
►
who have come here at our thinking ahead
00:44:23
◼
►
but and and to Marco's point about maybe
00:44:26
◼
►
you should think about a nap i thought
00:44:28
◼
►
the interesting thing about app.net is
00:44:30
◼
►
it seemed to me like uses was going down
00:44:31
◼
►
and down and down and then met bought
00:44:33
◼
►
shipped and there was this huge spike
00:44:37
◼
►
yeah that that day was like the change
00:44:39
◼
►
and I i'm sure they will always remember
00:44:42
◼
►
that day right when that Bob Knepper
00:44:44
◼
►
comes out and suddenly it would validate
00:44:47
◼
►
validate everything and there were you
00:44:49
◼
►
know a lot of new users and a lot of
00:44:51
◼
►
activity in yeah i think that the idea I
00:44:56
◼
►
i think there was only when it was
00:44:57
◼
►
almost taken his religion is that once
00:45:01
◼
►
we got to the point where you could
00:45:02
◼
►
write web apps and web apps would run
00:45:04
◼
►
everywhere that was like some sort of
00:45:06
◼
►
endpoint in the continuum of how
00:45:09
◼
►
software evolved and that they're not
00:45:10
◼
►
everybody certainly not everybody but
00:45:12
◼
►
there were a large number of people who
00:45:14
◼
►
I think sort of took it and still take
00:45:16
◼
►
it and i think that they and now they
00:45:18
◼
►
give marco check minuses on his talks a
00:45:21
◼
►
little that they've broken this dogma
00:45:24
◼
►
that web apps are the future and I think
00:45:27
◼
►
people are still dug in on that and that
00:45:29
◼
►
there was you see a lot of people and
00:45:30
◼
►
they look at the app store and success
00:45:32
◼
►
and they say well that's just temporary
00:45:33
◼
►
soon you know web apps will take over
00:45:36
◼
►
that and i don't i don't think that's
00:45:38
◼
►
true yeah I I don't buy it because of
00:45:41
◼
►
some sort of arms is exactly but it's
00:45:45
◼
►
kinda like that what we as client
00:45:46
◼
►
developers are going to be able to do is
00:45:48
◼
►
always going to outstrip what the web
00:45:51
◼
►
can do now so people who love web
00:45:54
◼
►
development will say hey we're getting
00:45:55
◼
►
this and this and be like hey great
00:45:58
◼
►
awesome that's you're going to really
00:45:59
◼
►
enjoy that but meanwhile we're gonna be
00:46:01
◼
►
you know another mile ahead because it's
00:46:03
◼
►
not like the platform stops and waits
00:46:06
◼
►
for quality it totally doesn't one of my
00:46:10
◼
►
all-time favorite brand
00:46:12
◼
►
Simmons isms I i don't know how many
00:46:16
◼
►
years ago was it could be a long time
00:46:18
◼
►
yeah i'll never forget it but you were
00:46:20
◼
►
writing about why Randy was clearly
00:46:23
◼
►
predates the iphone
00:46:25
◼
►
it was why write software for the mac
00:46:27
◼
►
and maybe it was in response to joel's
00:46:29
◼
►
polski thing talking about just how much
00:46:31
◼
►
bigger the windows market / was I and
00:46:34
◼
►
your piece was that it went beyond
00:46:36
◼
►
economics in a you know it wasn't about
00:46:39
◼
►
the size of the audience
00:46:40
◼
►
it was that writing mac apps was the
00:46:44
◼
►
show Yeah Yeah with a capital S yeah
00:46:47
◼
►
it's the only big league there is or at
00:46:50
◼
►
the time of course now we have iOS but
00:46:52
◼
►
the idea was if you're if you're making
00:46:55
◼
►
software you care about user experience
00:46:57
◼
►
first and and everything you do comes
00:47:01
◼
►
from that that premise right
00:47:04
◼
►
your choice of platform your choice of
00:47:05
◼
►
technologies all choices start with user
00:47:09
◼
►
experience and wanting to do the very
00:47:10
◼
►
best and i'm an ambitious and wanted to
00:47:13
◼
►
play in that you know it in the best
00:47:15
◼
►
playground that there was and because
00:47:18
◼
►
everything else sucks and you know it to
00:47:21
◼
►
throw another I keep it you know because
00:47:25
◼
►
the show is a reference to like that's
00:47:27
◼
►
bad like a baseball term for making it
00:47:29
◼
►
to them to the big leagues right major
00:47:31
◼
►
leagues where baseball professional
00:47:33
◼
►
baseball United States has these
00:47:34
◼
►
hierarchies of you know they're all
00:47:36
◼
►
professional but you go from a to
00:47:38
◼
►
double-a to triple-a and I don't even
00:47:41
◼
►
know i might not even be thousands of
00:47:42
◼
►
players active at any given time as it
00:47:45
◼
►
was fill all these teams and all sorts
00:47:47
◼
►
of local team you know all really small
00:47:49
◼
►
towns have a professional baseball team
00:47:51
◼
►
but it's you know amateurs or not
00:47:53
◼
►
amateurs but guys making like a thousand
00:47:55
◼
►
dollars a month
00:47:56
◼
►
yeah right sleeping on buses and
00:47:57
◼
►
something that and then you make it to
00:47:59
◼
►
the show yeah that's the real deal and
00:48:01
◼
►
all of a sudden the bright lights are on
00:48:03
◼
►
and the big money's there and you're not
00:48:05
◼
►
playing in front of 700 people you're
00:48:07
◼
►
playing in front of 35,000 people
00:48:10
◼
►
yep yeah and you're on television and
00:48:12
◼
►
you have groupies and and you make a
00:48:15
◼
►
mistake and it's on the front page of
00:48:16
◼
►
the sports section the next day
00:48:18
◼
►
that's right and if you do something
00:48:19
◼
►
good it's on the front page escort
00:48:20
◼
►
section the next day
00:48:21
◼
►
yeah so their scrutiny yeah absolutely
00:48:25
◼
►
yeah but it's really i think it comes
00:48:26
◼
►
down to you you've got to be obsessed em
00:48:29
◼
►
right like so why play baseball instead
00:48:31
◼
►
of basketball for those guys to play
00:48:32
◼
►
baseball because that's the sport there
00:48:34
◼
►
you know a lot of guys who are athletic
00:48:35
◼
►
could do anything but it is a sport that
00:48:38
◼
►
activates the mind and you can't get you
00:48:41
◼
►
can't get unhooked from it and I think
00:48:42
◼
►
that's what great user experiences for a
00:48:44
◼
►
developer like you
00:48:45
◼
►
yeah I have nothing to add to that that
00:48:50
◼
►
will bring thank you for being here
00:48:51
◼
►
thank you to the hosts at singleton
00:48:54
◼
►
absolutely thank you so much even even
00:48:56
◼
►
with the bad badges it was remarkable
00:48:58
◼
►
and extraordinarily generous to offer
00:49:01
◼
►
the states to me to do the show here
00:49:02
◼
►
today and absolutely most of all thank
00:49:06
◼
►
you to all of you who who stayed here to
00:49:08
◼
►
watch this it's always a thrill to do a
00:49:11
◼
►
show live and just a great throw
00:49:14
◼
►
thanks John Thank You Brent