The Talk Show

20: Live From Çingleton, with Brent Simmons


00:00:00   so screw the space guy will start to

00:00:02   talk show

00:00:03   alright alright since since we're

00:00:08   montreal I thought and and Brent i'm

00:00:10   here with brent Simmons who he wanted me

00:00:12   to introduce wanted to be cable sound

00:00:14   very capable sasser papers so much

00:00:16   funnier than I am right and every single

00:00:18   live thing I've ever done with an

00:00:20   interview thing has always been with

00:00:21   cable sasser because he's brilliant

00:00:23   right it's like a cheesy move

00:00:25   yeah because then me was like sort of

00:00:27   miserable and not really that good

00:00:29   person

00:00:29   the effusive Mr Cable sasser just rubs

00:00:32   off and anybody anybody would look

00:00:34   friendly and and professional onstage so

00:00:39   there's a lot of pressure on your brain

00:00:40   yeah okay well do what I can the truth

00:00:43   is I was a up a bit late last night

00:00:46   entirely the fault of John's wife who

00:00:50   wouldn't let me sleep anyway

00:00:55   got anything with that cake you've

00:01:02   already gone such a different direction

00:01:03   than cable goes no I thought here's the

00:01:08   thing one thing maybe people don't know

00:01:09   you spent a year two years living in

00:01:12   France

00:01:12   yeah yeah many years ago right here but

00:01:15   I thought since we're here we're here

00:01:17   today as we record it is sunday october

00:01:20   fourteenth we're in montreal quebec and

00:01:24   at the tail end after like the

00:01:26   after-party of the singleton the second

00:01:29   singleton symposium I thought it'd be

00:01:30   nice if we did the whole show conducted

00:01:32   the whole show in French a deco so how

00:01:36   did he say welcome

00:01:38   Bienvenue Bienvenue à l'heure talk show

00:01:42   I think it looks showed the talk is your

00:01:47   pal john grew Berra simple cable Sarah

00:01:51   married

00:01:59   no fuck you nah I'm out of friends just

00:02:02   that it's all I got

00:02:03   alright so before I have a couple things

00:02:08   I want to talk about and and over here

00:02:10   there's I don't know hundred people here

00:02:12   honored it seems like everybody state

00:02:14   which is great thank you for saying I

00:02:16   obviously we can't just recap the whole

00:02:19   conference you really had to be here you

00:02:21   should have been your shame on everybody

00:02:22   who wasn't here you're looking right at

00:02:24   me what you're all but it was really

00:02:28   really good but i do think there are a

00:02:30   couple of things that I picked up from

00:02:31   the talks over the weekend that you

00:02:33   didn't have to be here and we can we can

00:02:35   use them to start the show from so the

00:02:37   official theme of the conference was

00:02:39   quote-unquote scale and then you know I

00:02:43   think it kind of it but I think what I

00:02:45   saw from seeing all of the things to me

00:02:47   it was more about change

00:02:49   yeah starting with Jason smells keynote

00:02:52   the opening night which really talked

00:02:53   about changing the technology industry

00:02:54   change in the publishing industry and

00:02:57   how in his role at macworld at igg it's

00:03:02   sort of like the nexus of both it's all

00:03:03   about the change in technology over the

00:03:05   last 15 years and the change in the

00:03:06   publishing industry and and I think it

00:03:11   carried on from there I think juries my

00:03:14   career which is talk the next morning

00:03:15   was really about change in being an

00:03:18   apple developer which is get out

00:03:20   I mean everybody here knows I mean it's

00:03:22   not the list all the ways that life has

00:03:24   changed for iOS developers well there

00:03:27   was no such thing as iOS developers

00:03:28   right or i should say objective-c

00:03:30   developing out right there yeah you know

00:03:31   your life has changed you know my career

00:03:34   started in my professional software

00:03:37   Chris are around 95 96 and I wanted to

00:03:40   be a Mac Developer at the very worst

00:03:41   possible time to be a Mac Developer and

00:03:46   things have certainly changed for the

00:03:47   better since then

00:03:48   well and I think you're a good example

00:03:51   to of somebody who sort of followed the

00:03:52   advice and marcos thing about your

00:03:54   career

00:03:55   damn rancis thing were Michael ops thing

00:03:59   was everybody here should be thinking

00:04:00   that they're going to do something

00:04:01   different in three years every three

00:04:03   years ago your you tend to be doing

00:04:05   something different

00:04:06   yeah with the exception of working for

00:04:08   nine years on that newswire right but

00:04:10   there were three different versions

00:04:11   maybe but it did it changed a lot over

00:04:16   those years and you never it became a

00:04:19   big hit and it was really all on your

00:04:21   mac and then there was a huge change

00:04:23   where it went to sinking somehow right

00:04:26   right i spent a lot of time working on

00:04:28   sinking before there was really any good

00:04:31   sinking solutions out there course that

00:04:33   we have icloud which is perfect but

00:04:36   problem-solving yeah yeah no doubt

00:04:40   sinking remains just one of the most

00:04:42   difficult and ballbusting things to work

00:04:44   on I hate it with a passion and I don't

00:04:48   do it anymore

00:04:49   ah another thing I thought was and in

00:04:54   marco marco called his talk scaling your

00:04:56   career but I really thought it would

00:04:59   have fit better if titled changing your

00:05:01   career in adapting your career right and

00:05:03   the other underlying message I thought

00:05:05   in session after session all weekend

00:05:07   long

00:05:08   is that a lot of this change is not

00:05:10   really your choice

00:05:12   it's not you two making do you often

00:05:15   have a lot of choices in life but a lot

00:05:17   of it is you've got to get with the

00:05:19   program because the train is leaving the

00:05:21   station and if you're not on it you're

00:05:22   like you're gonna get left behind but

00:05:24   some it makes me think of swimming in

00:05:28   the ocean so much different than

00:05:30   swimming in a pool right in a pool you

00:05:31   can do what you want do laps whatever in

00:05:34   the ocean you have to you've got waves

00:05:35   to deal with and they're going to come

00:05:37   whether you're looking or not and

00:05:39   whether you're ready or not

00:05:41   yeah that makes me think that as soon as

00:05:43   you said that I thought you were going

00:05:43   to divide i was going to say there's

00:05:45   that phrase rising tide lifts all boats

00:05:46   rightly ads so that's good and had to

00:05:49   have the people write it also the rising

00:05:52   tide often like watches you doubt the

00:05:53   undertow and you found yet

00:05:55   indeed that you've got to be careful

00:05:56   where the answer England so you've

00:06:03   switched and now you're your thing right

00:06:05   now your big thing you're working on is

00:06:07   gone

00:06:07   sport right so how many people here have

00:06:09   been using glass board this weekend

00:06:11   try some it's going really really all I

00:06:14   mean that was for those of you listening

00:06:15   at home i would say that was everybody's

00:06:17   hand and there's still one guy with his

00:06:20   hand up

00:06:21   he really likes class point ah in a

00:06:25   sense I honestly I mean this in a

00:06:27   sincere way like I know there's the this

00:06:29   you can't get up here and talk without

00:06:30   mentioning steve jobs at least once

00:06:32   baked and he had that phrase you didn't

00:06:34   want to make a dent in the universe

00:06:35   right right so glass board has made at

00:06:38   least to some extent a little dent in

00:06:41   the conference going experience for

00:06:43   everybody like at least in text circle

00:06:45   while Sherri that keeps your Twitter

00:06:48   feeds or ATM feeds a bit more clear

00:06:51   since we can move all this stuff

00:06:53   glassport which anyway but the most

00:06:57   rewarding thing to me is seeing my peers

00:06:58   and friends whose my software I've had

00:07:00   that experience before with news wiring

00:07:02   and Mars at it and having it again with

00:07:05   glass bored you know just seeing it on

00:07:06   people's phones is like that's just

00:07:08   fucking awesome

00:07:09   I i totally love it I don't even care

00:07:12   about money at this point just that my

00:07:14   friends are using my stuff I feel good

00:07:16   but you still need to pay the bills so

00:07:19   you've got the thing I don't need to be

00:07:21   someone else has to be the glass so

00:07:22   glassport started as a totally free and

00:07:26   including the backend like and that's

00:07:28   got to be a significant part of it yeah

00:07:30   we've got a real messaging so the cost

00:07:33   of that stuff have have come down a ton

00:07:35   over the years I mean we're using a

00:07:37   major and which is like you know one of

00:07:40   these many scalable virtual things that

00:07:43   better understand because I right client

00:07:45   apps but it's a lot less expensive than

00:07:47   it used to be two to do these backend

00:07:49   services but recently you guys have

00:07:52   added and you call it a pro tier i

00:07:54   forget what you call a premium premium

00:07:56   right uh how is that is it taken off we

00:07:59   have a few customers

00:08:00   yeah I i signed and by you I mean yeah I

00:08:04   think it's like three

00:08:05   how hard was it to you

00:08:07   our part was to draw the line at where

00:08:12   you switch from the free service which

00:08:15   you really do want to be useful to

00:08:16   everybody right because if it was all

00:08:18   paid or if it was really limited there's

00:08:20   no way all those hands would have gone

00:08:21   up right of course I think it I think we

00:08:24   took the slightly lazy way and we said

00:08:26   whatever we haven't done yet

00:08:28   that's for pay and whatever it is now is

00:08:30   the free so pretty interesting way to do

00:08:33   it so going forward most new features

00:08:35   are going to be yeah yeah right not all

00:08:39   the most you know and I have to admit

00:08:41   you know somebody works alone its it

00:08:43   unsurprising that i tend to use it like

00:08:45   I put a couple screens back and then I

00:08:48   come to a conference and boom drag it to

00:08:50   the front screen writing to me it's it's

00:08:52   like conference board like that's when i

00:08:53   use glass board but you guys designed it

00:08:56   also specifically with yourselves in

00:08:58   mind like a eating your own dog food way

00:09:00   that yep this is the way your team is

00:09:02   going to communicate with each other

00:09:04   yeah that'll work told ya it its are you

00:09:08   know we don't use email we don't use no

00:09:10   IRS here whenever we just use glass

00:09:12   bored all day long and it works great as

00:09:15   you know way of working together it's

00:09:17   fantastic and that was the plan i mean

00:09:19   we didn't set out to make a conference

00:09:21   where we set out to make you know work

00:09:23   group thing and yeah it's fucking great

00:09:26   when you're when you're a working

00:09:28   typical workday are you using the web

00:09:31   interface too because there's no mac

00:09:33   client for it yet

00:09:34   yeah that's right its iOS and web

00:09:38   well I'm i used the web mainly during

00:09:41   the day because the because the iOS

00:09:43   client i'm actually working on at the

00:09:45   moment and it may not actually build and

00:09:47   run you know so yeah I tend to use the

00:09:49   web alot

00:09:50   yeah ah I and I asked that because it

00:09:53   made maybe it should have been obvious

00:09:56   because it

00:09:57   well of course you're going to use the

00:09:58   web because you want to use your big

00:09:59   keyboard and if there's no backlight

00:10:00   you're going to use the web but the

00:10:01   reason i ask is because i often find

00:10:03   myself it during the day while I'm

00:10:05   working

00:10:06   if I'm going to check twitter or use

00:10:08   twitter i will use my phone instead of

00:10:11   something on my mac a lot of the time

00:10:13   because then i'll keep it not running on

00:10:14   my mac to not be distracted but it off

00:10:17   it actually is like a useful way it

00:10:19   almost feels like using my iphone as a

00:10:21   second screen and I just keep twitter

00:10:23   there

00:10:24   yeah and it kind of keeps me from using

00:10:28   it more than I would if it was on my mac

00:10:30   right sure

00:10:31   yeah it's a your phone is great for

00:10:33   bathroom breaks and so on right it's

00:10:34   perfect now i actually use it at the

00:10:36   desk though I myself using my phone at

00:10:39   my desk for specifically for Twitter

00:10:41   like if I just gonna take a little break

00:10:43   from the whatever i'm writing or working

00:10:45   or reading i'll check twitter see ya as

00:10:47   a as an iOS developer my phone is

00:10:49   useless because it's running my software

00:10:51   in in debug mode so yeah I want to go

00:10:56   back to some of the stuff that jury had

00:10:59   talked about yesterday and is for those

00:11:03   of you don't know my drawer which used

00:11:04   to work at apple recently left to go to

00:11:08   black pixel worked in developer

00:11:10   relations and you know so from a very

00:11:12   recent vantage point was giving

00:11:14   everybody at the conference a sort of

00:11:16   here's some dope from a guy who is

00:11:19   inside Apple really at the intersection

00:11:22   of where third-party developers interact

00:11:24   with apple and giving them some honest

00:11:26   advice as to how did how to deal with

00:11:29   apple and a lot of it goes back to what

00:11:33   I said about change being outside your

00:11:35   control right so like sandbox and mac

00:11:41   apps is a perfect example of that where

00:11:45   developers have all sorts of problems

00:11:48   with it it it didn't roll out as

00:11:50   smoothly technically as it could have

00:11:52   and it's a really hard transition you

00:11:55   know it's definitely I think one of the

00:11:56   biggest problems with it is that the mac

00:11:58   has not had sandboxing for 20-some years

00:12:01   right and now it does and that's a lot

00:12:05   harder than iOS which debuted with this

00:12:08   sandboxing mindset

00:12:11   yeah we never even thought of it as

00:12:12   sandboxing really it's just how it

00:12:14   worked

00:12:14   yea-ah injuries advice was about anybody

00:12:18   to say i wrote this down and get over it

00:12:20   i think i think that's what he said mike

00:12:21   is that what you said and that's sort of

00:12:26   a brash way of saying it but i do think

00:12:28   you know he's kind of requisite you can

00:12:30   sit there and complain

00:12:31   about it and not get anything done or

00:12:33   you can deal with it and move forward

00:12:35   and I've always thought over the years

00:12:37   like when you blog about development and

00:12:39   how you approach stuff I you never get

00:12:42   upset you didn't it maybe you do

00:12:44   privately but like you always seem

00:12:46   unruffled and even when you get a raw

00:12:48   deal

00:12:49   it's like you just don't seem to be used

00:12:51   like well that's what I got a deal

00:12:52   yeah right well there's you know that

00:12:54   there's no fighting City Hall i guess

00:12:57   the old phrase right and right so like

00:12:59   if you you know there are things you

00:13:01   just you can't change i'm not going to

00:13:03   make I'm not personally gonna get Apple

00:13:05   to stop sandboxing I mean so so like

00:13:09   years ago when you were still developing

00:13:11   that news where I would say one of your

00:13:12   city halls that you had to fight was

00:13:14   Google Reader which you used you can eat

00:13:16   you guys use that newsgator as a sinking

00:13:19   back end right yeah i mean just can you

00:13:22   just talk some of the problems you dealt

00:13:24   with that

00:13:24   well yeah man google reader is

00:13:29   fantastically popular RSS aggregator and

00:13:31   we used it as are sinking back end and

00:13:33   it has an undocumented and unsupported

00:13:37   API and I had sworn to myself earlier in

00:13:40   life I don't ever use undocumented

00:13:43   unsupported api's and yet there i was

00:13:46   suddenly doing it and I had little

00:13:48   choice google reader was the thing that

00:13:50   everybody used and it was it's it was a

00:13:54   must-do feature and I lost a lot of hair

00:13:59   and a lot of sleep and trying to get

00:14:01   that to work and and i don't think i

00:14:04   ever got a working all that well before

00:14:06   I ended up selling it to the black pixel

00:14:08   folks and now it's their headache and

00:14:10   set up behind but but you know it was it

00:14:13   was a thing I you know but you never do

00:14:15   it you never publicly really you you

00:14:18   would explain if there were deficiencies

00:14:19   or you know you would explain as best

00:14:22   she could be you never seem to get upset

00:14:23   and you just like this is my hand to

00:14:25   play right gotta move forward on exactly

00:14:27   because life's too short to spend it

00:14:30   bitching you gotta get work done and

00:14:32   ship software so right and i think one

00:14:35   of the things people you know that

00:14:38   developers I think because they're so

00:14:42   by definition rationally minded have a

00:14:44   keen sense of justice and of course

00:14:47   everybody self interested in everybody

00:14:49   you know if it's close call wants things

00:14:53   to go their way but I think what

00:14:55   developers or third-party developers see

00:14:57   and complain about with the mac app

00:15:00   store and sandboxing is that Apple is

00:15:04   kinda cheating them with their own apps

00:15:07   but they totally are but but we always

00:15:09   knew they would write I mean right

00:15:11   because it's their store exactly right

00:15:13   it can do whatever they want to do and

00:15:16   so you know I I I don't even I hope this

00:15:20   isn't getting Paul into trouble but I

00:15:22   know Papa faucet told me that I think

00:15:24   vision rogue amoebas audio editor had

00:15:27   problems with sandboxing restrictions

00:15:29   for something something that happens to

00:15:31   be the exact same thing that garage band

00:15:33   does tech right of any yeah and I don't

00:15:36   know if garageband sandbox yet but the

00:15:38   fact that it's if it isn't even sandbox

00:15:39   get that just speaks more to the rules

00:15:42   you know for third-party developers are

00:15:44   not the same rules that Apple place but

00:15:46   yeah and but we never expected that they

00:15:49   would and anybody who did expect that

00:15:51   apple would play by those rules is must

00:15:54   be new here

00:15:56   ah one of the other things that the jury

00:16:03   had talked about and I think it comes up

00:16:04   a lot in a developer conference is the

00:16:06   concept of technical debt and it

00:16:08   manifests itself in many ways I and I

00:16:11   think marcos talk about your career kind

00:16:13   of touched on this certainly Michael ops

00:16:15   thing I did to wear if you're too

00:16:20   attached to what you've done to the way

00:16:22   things were to what you were good at you

00:16:25   can really get into trouble because the

00:16:27   world around you

00:16:28   moves forward right right and one of the

00:16:31   things you it's like a repeating things

00:16:32   like it always comes up is that you

00:16:34   Brent Simmons love to delete code hat

00:16:38   that's what gets me up in the morning I

00:16:40   i love deleting code almost more than

00:16:42   anything else you know I i I've written

00:16:45   some wonderful clever great things that

00:16:48   that then the OS add support for and I

00:16:51   can just delete those which she said the

00:16:53   thing about the table cells

00:16:55   yes

00:16:55   so in the last person that needs work

00:16:58   for mac i did i did you know a

00:17:01   uitableview like thing on the Mac you

00:17:04   know so it was a you know a table that

00:17:05   use vuze instead of cells and it had the

00:17:07   same dq'ing mechanism and all that kind

00:17:10   of stuff and it was really fast i tested

00:17:12   it tested with a million rows and did

00:17:15   everything and it was it is magical I

00:17:17   loved it was some of the coolest UI code

00:17:19   I ever wrote and then they added support

00:17:21   for that in the OS and I could go gon

00:17:23   get rid of it

00:17:24   delete the whole thing and I think your

00:17:26   natural instincts always lead you to

00:17:29   your ear

00:17:30   I think you're a little off the charts

00:17:32   in that direction where you don't need

00:17:33   it's not that you have like this regret

00:17:35   like oh and I'd that was beautiful code

00:17:37   now i have to maybe I should delete it

00:17:39   you're like happy to do i acttally i get

00:17:42   a thrill out of deleting my best code

00:17:44   yeah I think I would if I were writing

00:17:46   code for living I would probably be more

00:17:48   likely to be at the other end and be too

00:17:50   attached to the thing i did like I do

00:17:54   and I if I have a weakness as a one-man

00:17:56   show writing operation is that I i

00:17:59   probably should delete more of what I've

00:18:02   written sometimes if it interrupts the

00:18:06   confeds it's a good passage and I feel

00:18:08   like there's something good about it but

00:18:09   it might make the whole piece better if

00:18:11   I just took it out I'm less likely to

00:18:13   kill that I probably should be here than

00:18:16   I would be if I had in a separate editor

00:18:18   or something like that

00:18:19   well you know that there's old writing

00:18:20   advice is it kill your darlings yeah

00:18:22   something like that murder your

00:18:24   daughter's murder your darlings or you

00:18:25   know when I was very young my journalism

00:18:30   teacher said Brent find the best sense

00:18:32   in that and and delete that and then

00:18:35   chip what chip the rest of it right you

00:18:37   know because um and and she was fighting

00:18:39   against the tendency to you don't get

00:18:41   too attached to some you know clever bit

00:18:43   of wordplay or something you know it and

00:18:46   it then stop is stronger when you get

00:18:48   rid of that right and I've one thing I

00:18:49   do find myself doing often is deleting

00:18:51   the first sentence of a piece which I am

00:18:53   attached to em I because it's something

00:18:56   that's good and it got me started and

00:18:58   broke broke the chains and got the got

00:19:01   me actually moving my fingers on the

00:19:03   keyboard but then when I go back and

00:19:05   read it all over again it really really

00:19:07   really

00:19:07   better if i start with the second

00:19:09   paragraph yeah yeah it happens all the

00:19:11   time

00:19:11   yeah the real lead is is is the second

00:19:13   sentence writing paragraph something

00:19:15   overly clever and and off off the tone

00:19:18   of the rest of the piece drivers i could

00:19:26   probably a good were well we're about 20

00:19:28   minutes and so why don't I take the time

00:19:30   now and i'll do the sponsor break we

00:19:31   only have one sponsor for this very

00:19:33   special show the magazine from our good

00:19:37   friend and we've already mentioned a few

00:19:39   times the show Marco Arment so where's

00:19:43   Marco think he's out there to areas so

00:19:45   the magazine is really interesting it's

00:19:48   it's marco has taken what sort of the

00:19:51   skeleton of instapaper which i'm going

00:19:54   to assume everybody out there knows and

00:19:58   instead of making a thing where you send

00:20:00   articles to it and and stash it and read

00:20:02   it he's taken the skeleton of his

00:20:03   articles and here's a nice presentation

00:20:05   area and I really nice reading interface

00:20:07   and he's gone into publishing himself

00:20:11   and he's had you know is one issue is

00:20:14   out right now as we do the show there's

00:20:16   there's one issue and it's just great

00:20:19   it's loaded up with singleton talent

00:20:22   we've got got an article by our friend

00:20:25   good guy English we've got article and

00:20:27   baseball and text from Jason Snell who

00:20:32   is the other would the Oh Michael lobby

00:20:36   yeah I analysis pain who is not here

00:20:40   shame on him

00:20:40   why doesn't always pay not here if

00:20:42   everybody else from the issue i don't

00:20:44   think i've seen in front since seafloor

00:20:45   probably i don't know but it was a

00:20:47   really great article that was for

00:20:49   dynamite articles all over the place and

00:20:53   are not all over the place but of widely

00:20:55   different topics and it's just a real

00:20:59   simple idea and the simple idea

00:21:00   financially is buck 99 would have but 99

00:21:05   how often a month buck ninety-nine a

00:21:08   month and you get two issues a month of

00:21:11   really thoughtful really interesting

00:21:13   articles and it it seems so simple and i

00:21:20   think it's going to

00:21:21   like Marco in his introduction said I do

00:21:23   i know that this is gonna work I don't

00:21:24   know

00:21:25   yeah but i it's going to and it has all

00:21:27   sorts of stuff that I think is just it

00:21:29   sounds ridiculous that this is the sort

00:21:31   of thing that deserves praise but you

00:21:34   can like select text right there like

00:21:38   how crazy is it that that's actually a

00:21:40   feature deserving praise in an app for

00:21:43   reading when the OS has a feature that

00:21:45   like you select a word and you can get a

00:21:47   little button to define if you know

00:21:49   somebody uses the word you don't know if

00:21:53   you subscribed to redo read the magazine

00:21:54   and I i will but I've been traveling so

00:21:57   I been you know too busy to actually get

00:21:59   in front of my devices but I will as

00:22:01   soon as i get home very much looking

00:22:03   forward to it I i love the am I like the

00:22:07   model where he has like 30 days or

00:22:10   something exclusive rights and then then

00:22:13   the person can republish it but i think

00:22:15   what that does is it

00:22:16   it encourages the writers write

00:22:18   something timeless rather than just you

00:22:21   know that news that the news of the day

00:22:23   you know their rights something that

00:22:25   will last a while and right that's good

00:22:27   call it the magazine the idea for it

00:22:29   fits or fill so many needs that have

00:22:33   been left as everybody has moved towards

00:22:36   blogging and tweeting and doing these

00:22:40   things that when you hit the publish

00:22:42   button the people who is intended for

00:22:45   can start reading it

00:22:46   seconds later and you know there's

00:22:51   obviously and it that publishing model

00:22:54   obviously and even in my case definitely

00:22:56   leads me to writing things that are more

00:22:58   about the here and now or this week or

00:23:01   anything that just came out the two days

00:23:02   ago or the thing that now we all know

00:23:04   have heard is coming out on october 23rd

00:23:08   on as opposed to thinking about things

00:23:11   that just the audience at home knows I'm

00:23:13   John's holding an ipad mini as we speak

00:23:17   that's where I've got my show notes and

00:23:22   it does i mean and these and i would

00:23:24   have I would say 44 in the first four

00:23:27   articles in the issue one of the

00:23:30   magazine all for them if Marco had like

00:23:32   taking one of them and put it in his

00:23:34   pocket editorial pocket and published it

00:23:37   in issue 26 a year from now it would

00:23:41   still worst anniversary issue it would

00:23:43   be just as timeless and would fit just

00:23:45   as well I bet he does have articles in

00:23:48   his party probably tell you should

00:23:49   probably so yeah so anyway everybody out

00:23:53   there if you haven't already check out

00:23:55   the magazine I you can go to the app

00:23:59   store and search for the magazine and

00:24:01   you won't find it

00:24:02   ok but maybe by the time to show airs

00:24:05   you will it is a weird problem with

00:24:07   naming it and that i will add this is

00:24:09   that before he launched Marco ran the

00:24:11   idea by me and I I I poo-pooed the title

00:24:18   the magazine as being too generic in a

00:24:20   chat mr. talk shows and that's exactly

00:24:22   and then as soon as I hit return i

00:24:25   realized i had to immediately type this

00:24:27   coming from the guy whose podcast is

00:24:29   called the talk show and I was like so

00:24:32   and then i read like next line was like

00:24:33   so now what we're going to call you the

00:24:35   John now i was like i went from I think

00:24:38   it's too generic and i wrote this coming

00:24:40   from the guys podcast is the talk show

00:24:42   and I wrote so great title haha and i

00:24:46   believe the what what's the URL i don't

00:24:48   have it handy i should have

00:24:49   are you sure

00:24:52   [Music]

00:24:55   so Marco says the the URL is the dash

00:24:59   magazine dot org and go there I door is

00:25:02   a non-profit alright

00:25:06   you know people used to tell me with

00:25:08   daring fireball net because it used to

00:25:09   be i think that the original I can

00:25:11   definition of dotnet was you had to be

00:25:13   like a sort of like a service provider

00:25:15   or yeah I think yeah and dogs had to be

00:25:17   nonprofits and i still wanna dot edu for

00:25:21   instance not even you

00:25:22   it's a high school mixology yeah I was

00:25:26   gonna say I'm I definitely frightened

00:25:29   don't know what you learned at brents

00:25:31   Evans done it you i also want printed

00:25:33   and start gov as I'm sure that brendan

00:25:38   is dead you all the ads are from lawyers

00:25:40   bail bondsman i did another podcast i

00:25:46   talked about going to jail i did hear

00:25:48   that if you've read that one was pretty

00:25:50   good

00:25:51   that's David Lex unprofessional and this

00:25:53   is their little plug

00:25:54   yeah go ahead and i'm done that was a

00:25:57   short plug I so one of the things that I

00:26:05   find interesting and I feel like

00:26:06   everybody has to deal with it let's say

00:26:08   I would just say this is what has been a

00:26:10   lot of talk this because it's new and

00:26:11   everybody isn't really sure whether it's

00:26:13   gonna take off its like it just seems

00:26:14   like this is AB dotnet what was it

00:26:19   what's your take on app.net I don't know

00:26:23   if it's going to live

00:26:24   I like it a lot because i like the

00:26:27   service and i really wanted Twitter to

00:26:30   be the thing that I loved because it was

00:26:32   the thing I love for a long time but I

00:26:33   just don't love the company and it

00:26:38   seemed that when netbotz came out alpha

00:26:41   dynamic what the hell is this thing

00:26:42   called that's charlie suddenly there's a

00:26:46   lot of people actually using it and I'm

00:26:47   like I'm not checking twitter anymore

00:26:49   i'm using the ADN or whatever the hell

00:26:51   it's called here there is a dad this is

00:26:55   like where I fail as a talk show host

00:26:56   but there's like three things about

00:26:58   app.net that I i want to talk about and

00:27:00   none of them really seemed to lead to

00:27:02   each other and you just touch on all

00:27:04   three of them so let me just say them

00:27:06   and you guys can remind me when we go

00:27:08   off on a tangent one of them to go back

00:27:10   but one of them is a terrible name but

00:27:12   it's not even a name that's like one of

00:27:15   them is that if twitter

00:27:17   had behaved and what seems to be the

00:27:19   most obvious way in the way that they

00:27:20   should they're never be any room for it

00:27:22   to happen we'd never be talking about it

00:27:24   right and the third one is that it's

00:27:30   like it's been a great little science

00:27:32   experiment since net but came out about

00:27:34   the importance of apps

00:27:37   yeah girl isn't web clients yeah so

00:27:40   those are the three things let's talk

00:27:42   about the name first which is terrible

00:27:44   nobody even knows what to call it like

00:27:46   yeah some people call app.net some

00:27:47   people call it

00:27:48   Etienne which comes from app.net like

00:27:51   I've never even seen that before where

00:27:52   the dot and something's name becomes

00:27:55   part of its initials I've never seen

00:27:57   that people are grasping at straws that

00:27:59   hit anything to give it an identity

00:28:01   right and then their reference

00:28:03   implementation of a client for the

00:28:05   service they called alpha and so it's

00:28:09   like the URL is alpha dot app.net and

00:28:12   then there was some confusion maybe the

00:28:13   thing is called alpha and nobody really

00:28:15   right they can't go into beta now

00:28:16   however because alpha is the name I and

00:28:21   I forget I was just talking about it i

00:28:23   think the first night that I was here in

00:28:24   Montreal we and and just how it's almost

00:28:30   impossibly generic the name app.net

00:28:33   right because everything if you're

00:28:34   writing software is a nap and when is

00:28:37   the last time any of us has had a new

00:28:39   app that hasn't in some way use the net

00:28:43   right like I'm trying to think like even

00:28:46   games games are still connecting with

00:28:49   game center and sending saved stuff like

00:28:51   it really is almost impossibly generic

00:28:56   yeah yeah and you could look at it in

00:28:59   one way I all the personality for

00:29:01   whatever it's called is going to come to

00:29:03   the clients when I think of whatever

00:29:06   this is called I picture the net bot

00:29:08   icon right that's saying that as you

00:29:12   know it famously happened with Twitter

00:29:14   in the early days while when is crack

00:29:19   here still

00:29:20   yeah and for Twitter X and up we can't

00:29:23   see you again

00:29:24   all right areas if it had been for

00:29:27   twitterrific I would never I mean I saw

00:29:29   terrific price on Twitter and I'm like I

00:29:31   like this app will have to do you have

00:29:33   been famously well maybe not famously

00:29:36   actually much to the injustice of it but

00:29:40   Twitter itself didn't use any kind of

00:29:43   bird iconography at all not the

00:29:46   silhouette or anything they were using a

00:29:49   lowercase T bubble font thing as their

00:29:53   logo and twitterrific shipped with

00:29:55   what's the bird's name Ali the bird and

00:30:02   it was such a spectacularly perfect icon

00:30:05   for the twitter experience that all of a

00:30:08   sudden it became one of the most like

00:30:10   ripped off things right in in the

00:30:14   universe like everybody all across the

00:30:16   web when they would link to their

00:30:18   twitter account would put the

00:30:19   twitterrific icon there as a

00:30:21   representation of Twitter mm I don't

00:30:23   know how that escaped the Twitter people

00:30:25   they named their service up to the sound

00:30:26   of bird makes and didn't use a bird

00:30:30   I don't know it's one of those great you

00:30:32   know I like like so many great ideas

00:30:33   it's so obvious in hindsight but you

00:30:35   know it's it's like I've forgotten fact

00:30:38   that it was the icon factory that

00:30:39   polygon in the word tweet i guess was an

00:30:42   icon factory thing and and like 10 or 20

00:30:45   other things we all have to thank Craig

00:30:47   and his people for him and and because

00:30:50   of all the royalties that icon factories

00:30:53   getting from Twitter that's why Craig

00:30:55   will be the one who issues the refunds

00:30:57   for everybody's thanks Craig singleton

00:31:00   which one

00:31:05   Craig says the medium on his private jet

00:31:10   alright so the name stinks and I think

00:31:13   names matter i think names matter

00:31:15   yeah i was on the other hand I could

00:31:17   their attitude seems be hey we're gonna

00:31:19   make a generic service and developers

00:31:22   are the ones who are going to add

00:31:23   personality to it i don't know if that

00:31:25   will work but as a developer i kind of

00:31:28   don't mind their humility there right

00:31:30   I do I i do but i do think that it also

00:31:32   speaks to one of its it as it seeps into

00:31:37   the

00:31:37   background of your consciousness what a

00:31:38   tremendous advantage twitter has that

00:31:41   they own this word tweet which acts as

00:31:45   both a noun and a verb and it's a thing

00:31:47   so with these things that you send to

00:31:49   Twitter our tweets and when you do them

00:31:51   you're tweeting and that's really really

00:31:54   powerful psychological advantage you

00:31:57   know right and very much along the lines

00:31:59   that you know doing a web search is

00:32:02   called googling right chair

00:32:03   yeah I never Google something that thing

00:32:06   yeah i do it you know i think that i

00:32:09   would i would easily find myself saying

00:32:11   that I did yeah they're out of course it

00:32:12   so i'm saying though is that dragon his

00:32:18   team needs to step up and come up in

00:32:20   invent a personality in names and stuff

00:32:22   44 alpha tonight right

00:32:25   so second thing is that just the Indians

00:32:28   more mouth maybe not more important

00:32:29   because i do think names are important

00:32:30   but the the honestly indignation that I

00:32:34   feel towards the way twitter is is

00:32:36   acting towards third party developers

00:32:38   and their api's and it's ink brought to

00:32:43   light by this app.net thing and as these

00:32:45   app.net clients start appearing where

00:32:49   it's explicit not even implicit it's not

00:32:52   like you have to kind of like swinton

00:32:53   think about it it's like absolutely

00:32:55   clear as day one of the few things it's

00:32:57   as clear as day in the twitter api

00:32:58   guidelines is if you're using the

00:33:01   twitter api you cannot enter mix the

00:33:05   tweets that you're getting or any of the

00:33:07   data you're getting from twitter with

00:33:08   the content from anything that even any

00:33:11   other service

00:33:12   yeah and that to me is such bullshit it

00:33:14   is exactly like an email provider like

00:33:17   imagine an email provider that said you

00:33:18   cannot put any email from us into a

00:33:22   unified inbox

00:33:24   yeah imagine google saying that about

00:33:26   retail clients of something yet that it

00:33:29   just makes no sense because it's just

00:33:30   totally and again and you know and and

00:33:34   people often call me out on this because

00:33:36   you know I i will write pieces that were

00:33:41   i'm not i really don't see myself as

00:33:43   defending apple's app store i'm trying

00:33:45   to explain what they're thinking and I'm

00:33:48   so I do understand I'm not

00:33:50   I'm not saying Twitter can't do this you

00:33:52   know or even that they're morally wrong

00:33:55   for doing i just think that they're

00:33:56   being foolish because I think being that

00:34:00   what's the word showering and arrogant

00:34:04   sure it will say they've lost the love

00:34:06   of this room and and many rooms like it

00:34:08   exactly it is you know it's easy to say

00:34:12   that that hardcore geeks don't matter

00:34:14   much but what we do because we tell our

00:34:16   parents and siblings and family

00:34:18   what software to use and and you know we

00:34:21   have an outsized amount of power and

00:34:24   when you lose the geeks you lose a lot I

00:34:27   think

00:34:28   well they've turned our backs on a lot

00:34:29   of people who truly had and even have

00:34:32   remaining in to some extent but its

00:34:34   dwindling affection for twitter right

00:34:36   right like a really liked them and

00:34:40   they've just turned their backs on that

00:34:41   and it just seems like that is something

00:34:43   that they seem to be acting as though

00:34:45   it's irrelevant now whereas I don't

00:34:48   think that's the case at all

00:34:49   I i think that they should be to the top

00:34:52   levels absolutely positively like hey we

00:34:55   need to actually have like one of these

00:34:57   like change courses right now thing

00:35:00   because of just even the extent that

00:35:02   app.net got off the ground whether it

00:35:05   stays up like i said it's will see it

00:35:07   seems iffy but the fact that there was

00:35:08   any enthusiasm at all for it really

00:35:11   should have I think if i were there i

00:35:13   would be like this is this is awful

00:35:15   we've you know this is existence proof

00:35:17   that we have screwed this up

00:35:18   mm yep and into me just you know it just

00:35:21   seems so ridiculous like why wouldn't

00:35:23   you let them integrate tweets into some

00:35:25   other thing if that's what they want to

00:35:27   do

00:35:27   sure you know let a thousand flowers

00:35:30   bloom right let all know let people

00:35:32   write all kinds of software it's just

00:35:34   going to make your your service all the

00:35:36   more valuable and beloved right and

00:35:38   they're like no I and you know and it

00:35:41   off tonight I think it easily comes back

00:35:43   to you know a lot of the stuff you've

00:35:45   done like RSS and now the difference is

00:35:47   twitter is in a unique position where

00:35:49   they can do this because they are become

00:35:51   so popular they are big that they can do

00:35:54   it and they can make you know developers

00:35:58   write separate apps for appt dotnet

00:36:01   then Twitter even though it would make a

00:36:04   lot more sense if they would just

00:36:05   integrated into the same app right I but

00:36:10   it reminds me of publishers who like

00:36:12   wouldn't want to publish RSS feeds or

00:36:15   wouldn't want to publish full data RSS

00:36:17   feeds and of course there's are good

00:36:19   reasons there are reasons you think like

00:36:20   we'll all of our ads are coming this

00:36:22   other way we don't have ads in the RSS

00:36:24   we don't know what to do but when you

00:36:26   like try to take your stuff and keep it

00:36:28   in your own little box it's good stuff

00:36:30   never happens because the users people

00:36:32   that I say users but just people want

00:36:34   this stuff to just let me put it where I

00:36:37   want right right exactly

00:36:39   yeah and trying to control stuff in that

00:36:42   way is some swimming against the time

00:36:45   that's rarely works out I and I you know

00:36:50   the netnews wiser net new newswires a

00:36:52   perfect example where my life a year

00:36:56   before to a year after the existence of

00:36:58   netnewswire was that i was suddenly

00:37:00   reading all sorts of stuff not on the

00:37:03   website where it was written which may

00:37:05   be you know in some ways was a loss for

00:37:08   those websites if I previously read them

00:37:10   but reading so much more in the

00:37:12   aggregate including a lot of sources

00:37:14   where I wouldn't be reading them

00:37:16   regularly at all and at least I'm

00:37:17   reading right and so I can't help but

00:37:19   think that it was a win for so many

00:37:21   websites not that me in particular was

00:37:24   reading it but that every you know

00:37:26   everybody using that newswire was really

00:37:28   poor reading a lot more then than they

00:37:30   could have before yeah right

00:37:31   I and you know and then it comes down to

00:37:33   you know there's nothing just too many

00:37:35   people but you know people who accuses

00:37:38   app like Instapaper of somehow was

00:37:42   surfing or Flipboard or something like

00:37:45   that of stepping on the toes are pointed

00:37:47   out it's really know it's there just

00:37:49   giving people other options for

00:37:52   consuming your content and shouldn't you

00:37:53   just be thrilled that people want to

00:37:55   consume want to read your stuff

00:37:56   yeah absolutely hopefully that's your

00:37:58   call and if not choose another business

00:38:02   i think and and I just think Twitter is

00:38:04   totally lost it so what was my third

00:38:05   thing my third thing was oh I don't know

00:38:07   but i have a dip to Costello Castello's

00:38:10   story actually gotten that is good and

00:38:12   I think I I haven't thought about this

00:38:15   in years but it was at acosta Costolo

00:38:18   CEO and your twitter chief executive

00:38:22   officer and chief dick officer of bread

00:38:24   right so it's easy to not like him

00:38:27   because he's in charge of this whole

00:38:29   thing and it seems awful but the first

00:38:31   time I met him was years ago and it was

00:38:33   evening at adler or the first c4 perhaps

00:38:36   and times in chicago and I'd just

00:38:40   started working in newsgator and

00:38:42   feedburner was in Chicago and dick was

00:38:44   at feedburner and both those companies

00:38:46   were funded by Brad Feld and I don't

00:38:49   know mobius whatever he was doing at the

00:38:51   time so you know Brad encouraged me to

00:38:53   go to the paper printer offices and meet

00:38:56   dick and everybody and so I go into

00:38:57   their office and it's a big open space

00:38:59   and I I walk in there and I can't

00:39:02   remember his dick or somebody else um

00:39:04   introduces me to the entire company all

00:39:06   at once and this is C probably 2,000 for

00:39:10   something like that news when I was just

00:39:11   starting to become a really big hit and

00:39:13   of course the guys at feedburner had

00:39:15   stats on the head knew exactly how big

00:39:17   it was and the entire office applauded

00:39:20   me and I was just really really fucking

00:39:25   cool i just like for being the guy who

00:39:28   wrote the software you know that added

00:39:30   loved that and then we went out to lunch

00:39:32   and dick was charming and funny i think

00:39:35   is a theater background and I had a

00:39:37   great time and it was it's only years

00:39:39   later I'm like I want to kick it down

00:39:43   it's just it's it's so easy you have

00:39:47   right to go with the joke about his name

00:39:49   but really you can't help it right yeah

00:39:52   I had a torch here church dick

00:39:55   areas if I had an uncle dick my father's

00:40:01   my father's brother was was Richard

00:40:04   grouper and and everybody calling dick

00:40:06   but he was a little bit older even than

00:40:08   my dad and he died a couple years ago

00:40:10   but he was up that generation now he was

00:40:14   like you know dick cheney and and those

00:40:16   guys Sammy was you know that grandpa

00:40:18   dick

00:40:19   yeah Davis him i was a good name back

00:40:21   then but yeah totally

00:40:22   yeah yeah ma a white mug with black

00:40:25   lettering big bull letters dick cheney

00:40:28   drank his coffee out of that every

00:40:30   morning and I'm like that's a hell of a

00:40:31   good way to start at center for some

00:40:34   reason the name seems to have fallen out

00:40:35   of favor in recent decades though let's

00:40:39   bring it back alright name your kids

00:40:41   dick even the girls all right so last

00:40:45   thing on apt and we can probably wrap up

00:40:47   the show with it but I didn't think that

00:40:48   it was really an interesting experiment

00:40:51   and I certainly have the belief that

00:40:55   native clients native for the mac native

00:40:58   for iOS are the way to go for so many to

00:41:02   it if at all possible that's the way to

00:41:04   go and it just makes everything better

00:41:06   latency is better interface is better

00:41:09   you can you're less restricted about

00:41:11   where things go you can make things look

00:41:13   just right and as hard as it may be and

00:41:16   you can go back to you know Brad's talk

00:41:20   about how hard it is to get things

00:41:21   looking exactly right when you're truly

00:41:23   a perfectionist

00:41:24   it certainly is a lot how hard it can be

00:41:27   how much work way easier with a native

00:41:29   app then with with the web a great

00:41:31   example i think was tweeted or outfit or

00:41:33   something by I think Matt trance you put

00:41:35   up a screenshot of that wet wet platform

00:41:38   dot org or something

00:41:40   have you seen this downside well it's

00:41:42   talking about the web as a platform and

00:41:44   of course if you open it on your iphone

00:41:46   it it is completely fucked up that like

00:41:49   that like yep and that pretty much just

00:41:51   nails it you know and and it i also ties

00:41:55   in again to Marco's talk from yesterday

00:41:58   and Marco at one point he was talking

00:42:00   about a conference that he had spoken

00:42:02   and he didn't mention because I i I'd it

00:42:05   was ended up being a rather unpleasant

00:42:06   experience but as he described it

00:42:08   it was a a conference for web developers

00:42:12   and web designers and Marco you know who

00:42:15   he did work at tumblr on but you know is

00:42:19   certainly far more well known for his

00:42:21   work on clients like guys to paper on

00:42:23   and and more or less the message he gave

00:42:26   was you guys shouldn't be thinking so

00:42:29   much about the web you should be

00:42:30   thinking about what's the best

00:42:31   experience for users and a lot of cases

00:42:33   it's going to be a nap a native app and

00:42:37   I maybe even only a native app and he

00:42:41   held up Instagram as an example here I

00:42:44   am getting my instant papers and

00:42:45   instagrams exactly right

00:42:47   so far i have made a mistake I and I

00:42:50   think that pixma tourism to sponsor to

00:42:52   yeah I want to hear that in person we

00:42:54   know i would say with a French accent

00:42:55   come back pics of mixing mentor and make

00:42:57   sure this will be stopped

00:42:59   yeah but I thought that and I I thought

00:43:04   Marco didn't extrapolate that though to

00:43:06   the right degree of Marco is you know is

00:43:07   usually he's a nice guy but he is not

00:43:10   artificially humble is that he kind of

00:43:13   took away from that I gave these guys

00:43:14   this message and he got beat the ends up

00:43:16   long story short heat that this

00:43:17   conference gives all the attendees get

00:43:19   to rank the speakers and Marco came out

00:43:21   ranked very very poorly or dead last or

00:43:24   something like that

00:43:24   not because what he said wasn't true and

00:43:26   said he was exactly true and Instagram

00:43:28   was a remarkably app thing because they

00:43:31   sold for a billion fucking dollars

00:43:32   yeah i mean are now it's like and then

00:43:34   they were hundred million building

00:43:36   facing users to yeah but yeah but then

00:43:38   they have they still have more and more

00:43:40   users and it is by all accounts the most

00:43:45   successful social networking thing to

00:43:48   have launched in the last couple of

00:43:49   years on so it was a great example he

00:43:52   was exactly that that's the thing is he

00:43:54   should draw satisfaction from the fact

00:43:56   that he was dead right

00:43:57   the reason he got ranked poorly by the

00:43:59   speaker's wasn't cuz what he said wasn't

00:44:00   good advice and it wasn't true is

00:44:02   because it wasn't what they wanted to

00:44:03   hear exactly what is it that this crowd

00:44:06   doesn't want to hear that we can tell

00:44:07   them there has to be something

00:44:11   bars closed bars plus

00:44:14   I can't think of anything yeah I don't

00:44:16   have been something i think but i think

00:44:18   that's one of the great things about

00:44:19   this conference though is that people

00:44:20   who have come here at our thinking ahead

00:44:23   but and and to Marco's point about maybe

00:44:26   you should think about a nap i thought

00:44:28   the interesting thing about app.net is

00:44:30   it seemed to me like uses was going down

00:44:31   and down and down and then met bought

00:44:33   shipped and there was this huge spike

00:44:37   yeah that that day was like the change

00:44:39   and I i'm sure they will always remember

00:44:42   that day right when that Bob Knepper

00:44:44   comes out and suddenly it would validate

00:44:47   validate everything and there were you

00:44:49   know a lot of new users and a lot of

00:44:51   activity in yeah i think that the idea I

00:44:56   i think there was only when it was

00:44:57   almost taken his religion is that once

00:45:01   we got to the point where you could

00:45:02   write web apps and web apps would run

00:45:04   everywhere that was like some sort of

00:45:06   endpoint in the continuum of how

00:45:09   software evolved and that they're not

00:45:10   everybody certainly not everybody but

00:45:12   there were a large number of people who

00:45:14   I think sort of took it and still take

00:45:16   it and i think that they and now they

00:45:18   give marco check minuses on his talks a

00:45:21   little that they've broken this dogma

00:45:24   that web apps are the future and I think

00:45:27   people are still dug in on that and that

00:45:29   there was you see a lot of people and

00:45:30   they look at the app store and success

00:45:32   and they say well that's just temporary

00:45:33   soon you know web apps will take over

00:45:36   that and i don't i don't think that's

00:45:38   true yeah I I don't buy it because of

00:45:41   some sort of arms is exactly but it's

00:45:45   kinda like that what we as client

00:45:46   developers are going to be able to do is

00:45:48   always going to outstrip what the web

00:45:51   can do now so people who love web

00:45:54   development will say hey we're getting

00:45:55   this and this and be like hey great

00:45:58   awesome that's you're going to really

00:45:59   enjoy that but meanwhile we're gonna be

00:46:01   you know another mile ahead because it's

00:46:03   not like the platform stops and waits

00:46:06   for quality it totally doesn't one of my

00:46:10   all-time favorite brand

00:46:12   Simmons isms I i don't know how many

00:46:16   years ago was it could be a long time

00:46:17   ago

00:46:18   yeah i'll never forget it but you were

00:46:20   writing about why Randy was clearly

00:46:23   predates the iphone

00:46:25   it was why write software for the mac

00:46:27   and maybe it was in response to joel's

00:46:29   polski thing talking about just how much

00:46:31   bigger the windows market / was I and

00:46:34   your piece was that it went beyond

00:46:36   economics in a you know it wasn't about

00:46:39   the size of the audience

00:46:40   it was that writing mac apps was the

00:46:44   show Yeah Yeah with a capital S yeah

00:46:47   right

00:46:47   it's the only big league there is or at

00:46:50   the time of course now we have iOS but

00:46:52   yeah

00:46:52   the idea was if you're if you're making

00:46:55   software you care about user experience

00:46:57   first and and everything you do comes

00:47:01   from that that premise right

00:47:04   your choice of platform your choice of

00:47:05   technologies all choices start with user

00:47:09   experience and wanting to do the very

00:47:10   best and i'm an ambitious and wanted to

00:47:13   play in that you know it in the best

00:47:15   playground that there was and because

00:47:18   everything else sucks and you know it to

00:47:21   throw another I keep it you know because

00:47:25   the show is a reference to like that's

00:47:27   bad like a baseball term for making it

00:47:29   to them to the big leagues right major

00:47:31   leagues where baseball professional

00:47:33   baseball United States has these

00:47:34   hierarchies of you know they're all

00:47:36   professional but you go from a to

00:47:38   double-a to triple-a and I don't even

00:47:41   know i might not even be thousands of

00:47:42   players active at any given time as it

00:47:45   was fill all these teams and all sorts

00:47:47   of local team you know all really small

00:47:49   towns have a professional baseball team

00:47:51   but it's you know amateurs or not

00:47:53   amateurs but guys making like a thousand

00:47:55   dollars a month

00:47:56   yeah right sleeping on buses and

00:47:57   something that and then you make it to

00:47:59   the show yeah that's the real deal and

00:48:01   all of a sudden the bright lights are on

00:48:03   and the big money's there and you're not

00:48:05   playing in front of 700 people you're

00:48:07   playing in front of 35,000 people

00:48:10   yep yeah and you're on television and

00:48:12   you have groupies and and you make a

00:48:15   mistake and it's on the front page of

00:48:16   the sports section the next day

00:48:18   that's right and if you do something

00:48:19   good it's on the front page escort

00:48:20   section the next day

00:48:21   yeah so their scrutiny yeah absolutely

00:48:25   yeah but it's really i think it comes

00:48:26   down to you you've got to be obsessed em

00:48:29   right like so why play baseball instead

00:48:31   of basketball for those guys to play

00:48:32   baseball because that's the sport there

00:48:34   you know a lot of guys who are athletic

00:48:35   could do anything but it is a sport that

00:48:38   activates the mind and you can't get you

00:48:41   can't get unhooked from it and I think

00:48:42   that's what great user experiences for a

00:48:44   developer like you

00:48:45   yeah I have nothing to add to that that

00:48:50   will bring thank you for being here

00:48:51   thank you to the hosts at singleton

00:48:54   absolutely thank you so much even even

00:48:56   with the bad badges it was remarkable

00:48:58   and extraordinarily generous to offer

00:49:01   the states to me to do the show here

00:49:02   today and absolutely most of all thank

00:49:06   you to all of you who who stayed here to

00:49:08   watch this it's always a thrill to do a

00:49:11   show live and just a great throw

00:49:14   thanks John Thank You Brent

00:49:17   [Applause]