0:00:00so screw the space guy will start to
0:00:02talk show
0:00:03alright alright since since we're
0:00:08montreal I thought and and Brent i'm
0:00:10here with brent Simmons who he wanted me
0:00:12to introduce wanted to be cable sound
0:00:14very capable sasser papers so much
0:00:16funnier than I am right and every single
0:00:18live thing I've ever done with an
0:00:20interview thing has always been with
0:00:21cable sasser because he's brilliant
0:00:23right it's like a cheesy move
0:00:25yeah because then me was like sort of
0:00:27miserable and not really that good
0:00:29person
0:00:29the effusive Mr Cable sasser just rubs
0:00:32off and anybody anybody would look
0:00:34friendly and and professional onstage so
0:00:39there's a lot of pressure on your brain
0:00:40yeah okay well do what I can the truth
0:00:43is I was a up a bit late last night
0:00:46entirely the fault of John's wife who
0:00:50wouldn't let me sleep anyway
0:00:55got anything with that cake you've
0:01:02already gone such a different direction
0:01:03than cable goes no I thought here's the
0:01:08thing one thing maybe people don't know
0:01:09you spent a year two years living in
0:01:12France
0:01:12yeah yeah many years ago right here but
0:01:15I thought since we're here we're here
0:01:17today as we record it is sunday october
0:01:20fourteenth we're in montreal quebec and
0:01:24at the tail end after like the
0:01:26after-party of the singleton the second
0:01:29singleton symposium I thought it'd be
0:01:30nice if we did the whole show conducted
0:01:32the whole show in French a deco so how
0:01:36did he say welcome
0:01:38Bienvenue Bienvenue à l'heure talk show
0:01:42I think it looks showed the talk is your
0:01:47pal john grew Berra simple cable Sarah
0:01:51married
0:01:59no fuck you nah I'm out of friends just
0:02:02that it's all I got
0:02:03alright so before I have a couple things
0:02:08I want to talk about and and over here
0:02:10there's I don't know hundred people here
0:02:12honored it seems like everybody state
0:02:14which is great thank you for saying I
0:02:16obviously we can't just recap the whole
0:02:19conference you really had to be here you
0:02:21should have been your shame on everybody
0:02:22who wasn't here you're looking right at
0:02:24me what you're all but it was really
0:02:28really good but i do think there are a
0:02:30couple of things that I picked up from
0:02:31the talks over the weekend that you
0:02:33didn't have to be here and we can we can
0:02:35use them to start the show from so the
0:02:37official theme of the conference was
0:02:39quote-unquote scale and then you know I
0:02:43think it kind of it but I think what I
0:02:45saw from seeing all of the things to me
0:02:47it was more about change
0:02:49yeah starting with Jason smells keynote
0:02:52the opening night which really talked
0:02:53about changing the technology industry
0:02:54change in the publishing industry and
0:02:57how in his role at macworld at igg it's
0:03:02sort of like the nexus of both it's all
0:03:03about the change in technology over the
0:03:05last 15 years and the change in the
0:03:06publishing industry and and I think it
0:03:11carried on from there I think juries my
0:03:14career which is talk the next morning
0:03:15was really about change in being an
0:03:18apple developer which is get out
0:03:20I mean everybody here knows I mean it's
0:03:22not the list all the ways that life has
0:03:24changed for iOS developers well there
0:03:27was no such thing as iOS developers
0:03:28right or i should say objective-c
0:03:30developing out right there yeah you know
0:03:31your life has changed you know my career
0:03:34started in my professional software
0:03:37Chris are around 95 96 and I wanted to
0:03:40be a Mac Developer at the very worst
0:03:41possible time to be a Mac Developer and
0:03:46things have certainly changed for the
0:03:47better since then
0:03:48well and I think you're a good example
0:03:51to of somebody who sort of followed the
0:03:52advice and marcos thing about your
0:03:54career
0:03:55damn rancis thing were Michael ops thing
0:03:59was everybody here should be thinking
0:04:00that they're going to do something
0:04:01different in three years every three
0:04:03years ago your you tend to be doing
0:04:05something different
0:04:06yeah with the exception of working for
0:04:08nine years on that newswire right but
0:04:10there were three different versions
0:04:11maybe but it did it changed a lot over
0:04:16those years and you never it became a
0:04:19big hit and it was really all on your
0:04:21mac and then there was a huge change
0:04:23where it went to sinking somehow right
0:04:26right i spent a lot of time working on
0:04:28sinking before there was really any good
0:04:31sinking solutions out there course that
0:04:33we have icloud which is perfect but
0:04:36problem-solving yeah yeah no doubt
0:04:40sinking remains just one of the most
0:04:42difficult and ballbusting things to work
0:04:44on I hate it with a passion and I don't
0:04:48do it anymore
0:04:49ah another thing I thought was and in
0:04:54marco marco called his talk scaling your
0:04:56career but I really thought it would
0:04:59have fit better if titled changing your
0:05:01career in adapting your career right and
0:05:03the other underlying message I thought
0:05:05in session after session all weekend
0:05:07long
0:05:08is that a lot of this change is not
0:05:10really your choice
0:05:12it's not you two making do you often
0:05:15have a lot of choices in life but a lot
0:05:17of it is you've got to get with the
0:05:19program because the train is leaving the
0:05:21station and if you're not on it you're
0:05:22like you're gonna get left behind but
0:05:24some it makes me think of swimming in
0:05:28the ocean so much different than
0:05:30swimming in a pool right in a pool you
0:05:31can do what you want do laps whatever in
0:05:34the ocean you have to you've got waves
0:05:35to deal with and they're going to come
0:05:37whether you're looking or not and
0:05:39whether you're ready or not
0:05:41yeah that makes me think that as soon as
0:05:43you said that I thought you were going
0:05:43to divide i was going to say there's
0:05:45that phrase rising tide lifts all boats
0:05:46rightly ads so that's good and had to
0:05:49have the people write it also the rising
0:05:52tide often like watches you doubt the
0:05:53undertow and you found yet
0:05:55indeed that you've got to be careful
0:05:56where the answer England so you've
0:06:03switched and now you're your thing right
0:06:05now your big thing you're working on is
0:06:07gone
0:06:07sport right so how many people here have
0:06:09been using glass board this weekend
0:06:11try some it's going really really all I
0:06:14mean that was for those of you listening
0:06:15at home i would say that was everybody's
0:06:17hand and there's still one guy with his
0:06:20hand up
0:06:21he really likes class point ah in a
0:06:25sense I honestly I mean this in a
0:06:27sincere way like I know there's the this
0:06:29you can't get up here and talk without
0:06:30mentioning steve jobs at least once
0:06:32baked and he had that phrase you didn't
0:06:34want to make a dent in the universe
0:06:35right right so glass board has made at
0:06:38least to some extent a little dent in
0:06:41the conference going experience for
0:06:43everybody like at least in text circle
0:06:45while Sherri that keeps your Twitter
0:06:48feeds or ATM feeds a bit more clear
0:06:51since we can move all this stuff
0:06:53glassport which anyway but the most
0:06:57rewarding thing to me is seeing my peers
0:06:58and friends whose my software I've had
0:07:00that experience before with news wiring
0:07:02and Mars at it and having it again with
0:07:05glass bored you know just seeing it on
0:07:06people's phones is like that's just
0:07:08fucking awesome
0:07:09I i totally love it I don't even care
0:07:12about money at this point just that my
0:07:14friends are using my stuff I feel good
0:07:16but you still need to pay the bills so
0:07:19you've got the thing I don't need to be
0:07:21someone else has to be the glass so
0:07:22glassport started as a totally free and
0:07:26including the backend like and that's
0:07:28got to be a significant part of it yeah
0:07:30we've got a real messaging so the cost
0:07:33of that stuff have have come down a ton
0:07:35over the years I mean we're using a
0:07:37major and which is like you know one of
0:07:40these many scalable virtual things that
0:07:43better understand because I right client
0:07:45apps but it's a lot less expensive than
0:07:47it used to be two to do these backend
0:07:49services but recently you guys have
0:07:52added and you call it a pro tier i
0:07:54forget what you call a premium premium
0:07:56right uh how is that is it taken off we
0:07:59have a few customers
0:08:00yeah I i signed and by you I mean yeah I
0:08:04think it's like three
0:08:05how hard was it to you
0:08:07our part was to draw the line at where
0:08:12you switch from the free service which
0:08:15you really do want to be useful to
0:08:16everybody right because if it was all
0:08:18paid or if it was really limited there's
0:08:20no way all those hands would have gone
0:08:21up right of course I think it I think we
0:08:24took the slightly lazy way and we said
0:08:26whatever we haven't done yet
0:08:28that's for pay and whatever it is now is
0:08:30the free so pretty interesting way to do
0:08:33it so going forward most new features
0:08:35are going to be yeah yeah right not all
0:08:39the most you know and I have to admit
0:08:41you know somebody works alone its it
0:08:43unsurprising that i tend to use it like
0:08:45I put a couple screens back and then I
0:08:48come to a conference and boom drag it to
0:08:50the front screen writing to me it's it's
0:08:52like conference board like that's when i
0:08:53use glass board but you guys designed it
0:08:56also specifically with yourselves in
0:08:58mind like a eating your own dog food way
0:09:00that yep this is the way your team is
0:09:02going to communicate with each other
0:09:04yeah that'll work told ya it its are you
0:09:08know we don't use email we don't use no
0:09:10IRS here whenever we just use glass
0:09:12bored all day long and it works great as
0:09:15you know way of working together it's
0:09:17fantastic and that was the plan i mean
0:09:19we didn't set out to make a conference
0:09:21where we set out to make you know work
0:09:23group thing and yeah it's fucking great
0:09:26when you're when you're a working
0:09:28typical workday are you using the web
0:09:31interface too because there's no mac
0:09:33client for it yet
0:09:34yeah that's right its iOS and web
0:09:38well I'm i used the web mainly during
0:09:41the day because the because the iOS
0:09:43client i'm actually working on at the
0:09:45moment and it may not actually build and
0:09:47run you know so yeah I tend to use the
0:09:49web alot
0:09:50yeah ah I and I asked that because it
0:09:53made maybe it should have been obvious
0:09:56because it
0:09:57well of course you're going to use the
0:09:58web because you want to use your big
0:09:59keyboard and if there's no backlight
0:10:00you're going to use the web but the
0:10:01reason i ask is because i often find
0:10:03myself it during the day while I'm
0:10:05working
0:10:06if I'm going to check twitter or use
0:10:08twitter i will use my phone instead of
0:10:11something on my mac a lot of the time
0:10:13because then i'll keep it not running on
0:10:14my mac to not be distracted but it off
0:10:17it actually is like a useful way it
0:10:19almost feels like using my iphone as a
0:10:21second screen and I just keep twitter
0:10:23there
0:10:24yeah and it kind of keeps me from using
0:10:28it more than I would if it was on my mac
0:10:30right sure
0:10:31yeah it's a your phone is great for
0:10:33bathroom breaks and so on right it's
0:10:34perfect now i actually use it at the
0:10:36desk though I myself using my phone at
0:10:39my desk for specifically for Twitter
0:10:41like if I just gonna take a little break
0:10:43from the whatever i'm writing or working
0:10:45or reading i'll check twitter see ya as
0:10:47a as an iOS developer my phone is
0:10:49useless because it's running my software
0:10:51in in debug mode so yeah I want to go
0:10:56back to some of the stuff that jury had
0:10:59talked about yesterday and is for those
0:11:03of you don't know my drawer which used
0:11:04to work at apple recently left to go to
0:11:08black pixel worked in developer
0:11:10relations and you know so from a very
0:11:12recent vantage point was giving
0:11:14everybody at the conference a sort of
0:11:16here's some dope from a guy who is
0:11:19inside Apple really at the intersection
0:11:22of where third-party developers interact
0:11:24with apple and giving them some honest
0:11:26advice as to how did how to deal with
0:11:29apple and a lot of it goes back to what
0:11:33I said about change being outside your
0:11:35control right so like sandbox and mac
0:11:41apps is a perfect example of that where
0:11:45developers have all sorts of problems
0:11:48with it it it didn't roll out as
0:11:50smoothly technically as it could have
0:11:52and it's a really hard transition you
0:11:55know it's definitely I think one of the
0:11:56biggest problems with it is that the mac
0:11:58has not had sandboxing for 20-some years
0:12:01right and now it does and that's a lot
0:12:05harder than iOS which debuted with this
0:12:08sandboxing mindset
0:12:11yeah we never even thought of it as
0:12:12sandboxing really it's just how it
0:12:14worked
0:12:14yea-ah injuries advice was about anybody
0:12:18to say i wrote this down and get over it
0:12:20i think i think that's what he said mike
0:12:21is that what you said and that's sort of
0:12:26a brash way of saying it but i do think
0:12:28you know he's kind of requisite you can
0:12:30sit there and complain
0:12:31about it and not get anything done or
0:12:33you can deal with it and move forward
0:12:35and I've always thought over the years
0:12:37like when you blog about development and
0:12:39how you approach stuff I you never get
0:12:42upset you didn't it maybe you do
0:12:44privately but like you always seem
0:12:46unruffled and even when you get a raw
0:12:48deal
0:12:49it's like you just don't seem to be used
0:12:51like well that's what I got a deal
0:12:52yeah right well there's you know that
0:12:54there's no fighting City Hall i guess
0:12:57the old phrase right and right so like
0:12:59if you you know there are things you
0:13:01just you can't change i'm not going to
0:13:03make I'm not personally gonna get Apple
0:13:05to stop sandboxing I mean so so like
0:13:09years ago when you were still developing
0:13:11that news where I would say one of your
0:13:12city halls that you had to fight was
0:13:14Google Reader which you used you can eat
0:13:16you guys use that newsgator as a sinking
0:13:19back end right yeah i mean just can you
0:13:22just talk some of the problems you dealt
0:13:24with that
0:13:24well yeah man google reader is
0:13:29fantastically popular RSS aggregator and
0:13:31we used it as are sinking back end and
0:13:33it has an undocumented and unsupported
0:13:37API and I had sworn to myself earlier in
0:13:40life I don't ever use undocumented
0:13:43unsupported api's and yet there i was
0:13:46suddenly doing it and I had little
0:13:48choice google reader was the thing that
0:13:50everybody used and it was it's it was a
0:13:54must-do feature and I lost a lot of hair
0:13:59and a lot of sleep and trying to get
0:14:01that to work and and i don't think i
0:14:04ever got a working all that well before
0:14:06I ended up selling it to the black pixel
0:14:08folks and now it's their headache and
0:14:10set up behind but but you know it was it
0:14:13was a thing I you know but you never do
0:14:15it you never publicly really you you
0:14:18would explain if there were deficiencies
0:14:19or you know you would explain as best
0:14:22she could be you never seem to get upset
0:14:23and you just like this is my hand to
0:14:25play right gotta move forward on exactly
0:14:27because life's too short to spend it
0:14:30bitching you gotta get work done and
0:14:32ship software so right and i think one
0:14:35of the things people you know that
0:14:38developers I think because they're so
0:14:42by definition rationally minded have a
0:14:44keen sense of justice and of course
0:14:47everybody self interested in everybody
0:14:49you know if it's close call wants things
0:14:53to go their way but I think what
0:14:55developers or third-party developers see
0:14:57and complain about with the mac app
0:15:00store and sandboxing is that Apple is
0:15:04kinda cheating them with their own apps
0:15:07but they totally are but but we always
0:15:09knew they would write I mean right
0:15:11because it's their store exactly right
0:15:13it can do whatever they want to do and
0:15:16so you know I I I don't even I hope this
0:15:20isn't getting Paul into trouble but I
0:15:22know Papa faucet told me that I think
0:15:24vision rogue amoebas audio editor had
0:15:27problems with sandboxing restrictions
0:15:29for something something that happens to
0:15:31be the exact same thing that garage band
0:15:33does tech right of any yeah and I don't
0:15:36know if garageband sandbox yet but the
0:15:38fact that it's if it isn't even sandbox
0:15:39get that just speaks more to the rules
0:15:42you know for third-party developers are
0:15:44not the same rules that Apple place but
0:15:46yeah and but we never expected that they
0:15:49would and anybody who did expect that
0:15:51apple would play by those rules is must
0:15:54be new here
0:15:56ah one of the other things that the jury
0:16:03had talked about and I think it comes up
0:16:04a lot in a developer conference is the
0:16:06concept of technical debt and it
0:16:08manifests itself in many ways I and I
0:16:11think marcos talk about your career kind
0:16:13of touched on this certainly Michael ops
0:16:15thing I did to wear if you're too
0:16:20attached to what you've done to the way
0:16:22things were to what you were good at you
0:16:25can really get into trouble because the
0:16:27world around you
0:16:28moves forward right right and one of the
0:16:31things you it's like a repeating things
0:16:32like it always comes up is that you
0:16:34Brent Simmons love to delete code hat
0:16:38that's what gets me up in the morning I
0:16:40i love deleting code almost more than
0:16:42anything else you know I i I've written
0:16:45some wonderful clever great things that
0:16:48that then the OS add support for and I
0:16:51can just delete those which she said the
0:16:53thing about the table cells
0:16:55yes
0:16:55so in the last person that needs work
0:16:58for mac i did i did you know a
0:17:01uitableview like thing on the Mac you
0:17:04know so it was a you know a table that
0:17:05use vuze instead of cells and it had the
0:17:07same dq'ing mechanism and all that kind
0:17:10of stuff and it was really fast i tested
0:17:12it tested with a million rows and did
0:17:15everything and it was it is magical I
0:17:17loved it was some of the coolest UI code
0:17:19I ever wrote and then they added support
0:17:21for that in the OS and I could go gon
0:17:23get rid of it
0:17:24delete the whole thing and I think your
0:17:26natural instincts always lead you to
0:17:29your ear
0:17:30I think you're a little off the charts
0:17:32in that direction where you don't need
0:17:33it's not that you have like this regret
0:17:35like oh and I'd that was beautiful code
0:17:37now i have to maybe I should delete it
0:17:39you're like happy to do i acttally i get
0:17:42a thrill out of deleting my best code
0:17:44yeah I think I would if I were writing
0:17:46code for living I would probably be more
0:17:48likely to be at the other end and be too
0:17:50attached to the thing i did like I do
0:17:54and I if I have a weakness as a one-man
0:17:56show writing operation is that I i
0:17:59probably should delete more of what I've
0:18:02written sometimes if it interrupts the
0:18:06confeds it's a good passage and I feel
0:18:08like there's something good about it but
0:18:09it might make the whole piece better if
0:18:11I just took it out I'm less likely to
0:18:13kill that I probably should be here than
0:18:16I would be if I had in a separate editor
0:18:18or something like that
0:18:19well you know that there's old writing
0:18:20advice is it kill your darlings yeah
0:18:22something like that murder your
0:18:24daughter's murder your darlings or you
0:18:25know when I was very young my journalism
0:18:30teacher said Brent find the best sense
0:18:32in that and and delete that and then
0:18:35chip what chip the rest of it right you
0:18:37know because um and and she was fighting
0:18:39against the tendency to you don't get
0:18:41too attached to some you know clever bit
0:18:43of wordplay or something you know it and
0:18:46it then stop is stronger when you get
0:18:48rid of that right and I've one thing I
0:18:49do find myself doing often is deleting
0:18:51the first sentence of a piece which I am
0:18:53attached to em I because it's something
0:18:56that's good and it got me started and
0:18:58broke broke the chains and got the got
0:19:01me actually moving my fingers on the
0:19:03keyboard but then when I go back and
0:19:05read it all over again it really really
0:19:07really
0:19:07better if i start with the second
0:19:09paragraph yeah yeah it happens all the
0:19:11time
0:19:11yeah the real lead is is is the second
0:19:13sentence writing paragraph something
0:19:15overly clever and and off off the tone
0:19:18of the rest of the piece drivers i could
0:19:26probably a good were well we're about 20
0:19:28minutes and so why don't I take the time
0:19:30now and i'll do the sponsor break we
0:19:31only have one sponsor for this very
0:19:33special show the magazine from our good
0:19:37friend and we've already mentioned a few
0:19:39times the show Marco Arment so where's
0:19:43Marco think he's out there to areas so
0:19:45the magazine is really interesting it's
0:19:48it's marco has taken what sort of the
0:19:51skeleton of instapaper which i'm going
0:19:54to assume everybody out there knows and
0:19:58instead of making a thing where you send
0:20:00articles to it and and stash it and read
0:20:02it he's taken the skeleton of his
0:20:03articles and here's a nice presentation
0:20:05area and I really nice reading interface
0:20:07and he's gone into publishing himself
0:20:11and he's had you know is one issue is
0:20:14out right now as we do the show there's
0:20:16there's one issue and it's just great
0:20:19it's loaded up with singleton talent
0:20:22we've got got an article by our friend
0:20:25good guy English we've got article and
0:20:27baseball and text from Jason Snell who
0:20:32is the other would the Oh Michael lobby
0:20:36yeah I analysis pain who is not here
0:20:40shame on him
0:20:40why doesn't always pay not here if
0:20:42everybody else from the issue i don't
0:20:44think i've seen in front since seafloor
0:20:45probably i don't know but it was a
0:20:47really great article that was for
0:20:49dynamite articles all over the place and
0:20:53are not all over the place but of widely
0:20:55different topics and it's just a real
0:20:59simple idea and the simple idea
0:21:00financially is buck 99 would have but 99
0:21:05how often a month buck ninety-nine a
0:21:08month and you get two issues a month of
0:21:11really thoughtful really interesting
0:21:13articles and it it seems so simple and i
0:21:20think it's going to
0:21:21like Marco in his introduction said I do
0:21:23i know that this is gonna work I don't
0:21:24know
0:21:25yeah but i it's going to and it has all
0:21:27sorts of stuff that I think is just it
0:21:29sounds ridiculous that this is the sort
0:21:31of thing that deserves praise but you
0:21:34can like select text right there like
0:21:38how crazy is it that that's actually a
0:21:40feature deserving praise in an app for
0:21:43reading when the OS has a feature that
0:21:45like you select a word and you can get a
0:21:47little button to define if you know
0:21:49somebody uses the word you don't know if
0:21:53you subscribed to redo read the magazine
0:21:54and I i will but I've been traveling so
0:21:57I been you know too busy to actually get
0:21:59in front of my devices but I will as
0:22:01soon as i get home very much looking
0:22:03forward to it I i love the am I like the
0:22:07model where he has like 30 days or
0:22:10something exclusive rights and then then
0:22:13the person can republish it but i think
0:22:15what that does is it
0:22:16it encourages the writers write
0:22:18something timeless rather than just you
0:22:21know that news that the news of the day
0:22:23you know their rights something that
0:22:25will last a while and right that's good
0:22:27call it the magazine the idea for it
0:22:29fits or fill so many needs that have
0:22:33been left as everybody has moved towards
0:22:36blogging and tweeting and doing these
0:22:40things that when you hit the publish
0:22:42button the people who is intended for
0:22:45can start reading it
0:22:46seconds later and you know there's
0:22:51obviously and it that publishing model
0:22:54obviously and even in my case definitely
0:22:56leads me to writing things that are more
0:22:58about the here and now or this week or
0:23:01anything that just came out the two days
0:23:02ago or the thing that now we all know
0:23:04have heard is coming out on october 23rd
0:23:08on as opposed to thinking about things
0:23:11that just the audience at home knows I'm
0:23:13John's holding an ipad mini as we speak
0:23:17that's where I've got my show notes and
0:23:22it does i mean and these and i would
0:23:24have I would say 44 in the first four
0:23:27articles in the issue one of the
0:23:30magazine all for them if Marco had like
0:23:32taking one of them and put it in his
0:23:34pocket editorial pocket and published it
0:23:37in issue 26 a year from now it would
0:23:41still worst anniversary issue it would
0:23:43be just as timeless and would fit just
0:23:45as well I bet he does have articles in
0:23:48his party probably tell you should
0:23:49probably so yeah so anyway everybody out
0:23:53there if you haven't already check out
0:23:55the magazine I you can go to the app
0:23:59store and search for the magazine and
0:24:01you won't find it
0:24:02ok but maybe by the time to show airs
0:24:05you will it is a weird problem with
0:24:07naming it and that i will add this is
0:24:09that before he launched Marco ran the
0:24:11idea by me and I I I poo-pooed the title
0:24:18the magazine as being too generic in a
0:24:20chat mr. talk shows and that's exactly
0:24:22and then as soon as I hit return i
0:24:25realized i had to immediately type this
0:24:27coming from the guy whose podcast is
0:24:29called the talk show and I was like so
0:24:32and then i read like next line was like
0:24:33so now what we're going to call you the
0:24:35John now i was like i went from I think
0:24:38it's too generic and i wrote this coming
0:24:40from the guys podcast is the talk show
0:24:42and I wrote so great title haha and i
0:24:46believe the what what's the URL i don't
0:24:48have it handy i should have
0:24:49are you sure
0:24:52[Music]
0:24:55so Marco says the the URL is the dash
0:24:59magazine dot org and go there I door is
0:25:02a non-profit alright
0:25:06you know people used to tell me with
0:25:08daring fireball net because it used to
0:25:09be i think that the original I can
0:25:11definition of dotnet was you had to be
0:25:13like a sort of like a service provider
0:25:15or yeah I think yeah and dogs had to be
0:25:17nonprofits and i still wanna dot edu for
0:25:21instance not even you
0:25:22it's a high school mixology yeah I was
0:25:26gonna say I'm I definitely frightened
0:25:29don't know what you learned at brents
0:25:31Evans done it you i also want printed
0:25:33and start gov as I'm sure that brendan
0:25:38is dead you all the ads are from lawyers
0:25:40bail bondsman i did another podcast i
0:25:46talked about going to jail i did hear
0:25:48that if you've read that one was pretty
0:25:50good
0:25:51that's David Lex unprofessional and this
0:25:53is their little plug
0:25:54yeah go ahead and i'm done that was a
0:25:57short plug I so one of the things that I
0:26:05find interesting and I feel like
0:26:06everybody has to deal with it let's say
0:26:08I would just say this is what has been a
0:26:10lot of talk this because it's new and
0:26:11everybody isn't really sure whether it's
0:26:13gonna take off its like it just seems
0:26:14like this is AB dotnet what was it
0:26:19what's your take on app.net I don't know
0:26:23if it's going to live
0:26:24I like it a lot because i like the
0:26:27service and i really wanted Twitter to
0:26:30be the thing that I loved because it was
0:26:32the thing I love for a long time but I
0:26:33just don't love the company and it
0:26:38seemed that when netbotz came out alpha
0:26:41dynamic what the hell is this thing
0:26:42called that's charlie suddenly there's a
0:26:46lot of people actually using it and I'm
0:26:47like I'm not checking twitter anymore
0:26:49i'm using the ADN or whatever the hell
0:26:51it's called here there is a dad this is
0:26:55like where I fail as a talk show host
0:26:56but there's like three things about
0:26:58app.net that I i want to talk about and
0:27:00none of them really seemed to lead to
0:27:02each other and you just touch on all
0:27:04three of them so let me just say them
0:27:06and you guys can remind me when we go
0:27:08off on a tangent one of them to go back
0:27:10but one of them is a terrible name but
0:27:12it's not even a name that's like one of
0:27:15them is that if twitter
0:27:17had behaved and what seems to be the
0:27:19most obvious way in the way that they
0:27:20should they're never be any room for it
0:27:22to happen we'd never be talking about it
0:27:24right and the third one is that it's
0:27:30like it's been a great little science
0:27:32experiment since net but came out about
0:27:34the importance of apps
0:27:37yeah girl isn't web clients yeah so
0:27:40those are the three things let's talk
0:27:42about the name first which is terrible
0:27:44nobody even knows what to call it like
0:27:46yeah some people call app.net some
0:27:47people call it
0:27:48Etienne which comes from app.net like
0:27:51I've never even seen that before where
0:27:52the dot and something's name becomes
0:27:55part of its initials I've never seen
0:27:57that people are grasping at straws that
0:27:59hit anything to give it an identity
0:28:01right and then their reference
0:28:03implementation of a client for the
0:28:05service they called alpha and so it's
0:28:09like the URL is alpha dot app.net and
0:28:12then there was some confusion maybe the
0:28:13thing is called alpha and nobody really
0:28:15right they can't go into beta now
0:28:16however because alpha is the name I and
0:28:21I forget I was just talking about it i
0:28:23think the first night that I was here in
0:28:24Montreal we and and just how it's almost
0:28:30impossibly generic the name app.net
0:28:33right because everything if you're
0:28:34writing software is a nap and when is
0:28:37the last time any of us has had a new
0:28:39app that hasn't in some way use the net
0:28:43right like I'm trying to think like even
0:28:46games games are still connecting with
0:28:49game center and sending saved stuff like
0:28:51it really is almost impossibly generic
0:28:56yeah yeah and you could look at it in
0:28:59one way I all the personality for
0:29:01whatever it's called is going to come to
0:29:03the clients when I think of whatever
0:29:06this is called I picture the net bot
0:29:08icon right that's saying that as you
0:29:12know it famously happened with Twitter
0:29:14in the early days while when is crack
0:29:19here still
0:29:20yeah and for Twitter X and up we can't
0:29:23see you again
0:29:24all right areas if it had been for
0:29:27twitterrific I would never I mean I saw
0:29:29terrific price on Twitter and I'm like I
0:29:31like this app will have to do you have
0:29:33been famously well maybe not famously
0:29:36actually much to the injustice of it but
0:29:40Twitter itself didn't use any kind of
0:29:43bird iconography at all not the
0:29:46silhouette or anything they were using a
0:29:49lowercase T bubble font thing as their
0:29:53logo and twitterrific shipped with
0:29:55what's the bird's name Ali the bird and
0:30:02it was such a spectacularly perfect icon
0:30:05for the twitter experience that all of a
0:30:08sudden it became one of the most like
0:30:10ripped off things right in in the
0:30:14universe like everybody all across the
0:30:16web when they would link to their
0:30:18twitter account would put the
0:30:19twitterrific icon there as a
0:30:21representation of Twitter mm I don't
0:30:23know how that escaped the Twitter people
0:30:25they named their service up to the sound
0:30:26of bird makes and didn't use a bird
0:30:30I don't know it's one of those great you
0:30:32know I like like so many great ideas
0:30:33it's so obvious in hindsight but you
0:30:35know it's it's like I've forgotten fact
0:30:38that it was the icon factory that
0:30:39polygon in the word tweet i guess was an
0:30:42icon factory thing and and like 10 or 20
0:30:45other things we all have to thank Craig
0:30:47and his people for him and and because
0:30:50of all the royalties that icon factories
0:30:53getting from Twitter that's why Craig
0:30:55will be the one who issues the refunds
0:30:57for everybody's thanks Craig singleton
0:31:00which one
0:31:05Craig says the medium on his private jet
0:31:10alright so the name stinks and I think
0:31:13names matter i think names matter
0:31:15yeah i was on the other hand I could
0:31:17their attitude seems be hey we're gonna
0:31:19make a generic service and developers
0:31:22are the ones who are going to add
0:31:23personality to it i don't know if that
0:31:25will work but as a developer i kind of
0:31:28don't mind their humility there right
0:31:30I do I i do but i do think that it also
0:31:32speaks to one of its it as it seeps into
0:31:37the
0:31:37background of your consciousness what a
0:31:38tremendous advantage twitter has that
0:31:41they own this word tweet which acts as
0:31:45both a noun and a verb and it's a thing
0:31:47so with these things that you send to
0:31:49Twitter our tweets and when you do them
0:31:51you're tweeting and that's really really
0:31:54powerful psychological advantage you
0:31:57know right and very much along the lines
0:31:59that you know doing a web search is
0:32:02called googling right chair
0:32:03yeah I never Google something that thing
0:32:06yeah i do it you know i think that i
0:32:09would i would easily find myself saying
0:32:11that I did yeah they're out of course it
0:32:12so i'm saying though is that dragon his
0:32:18team needs to step up and come up in
0:32:20invent a personality in names and stuff
0:32:2244 alpha tonight right
0:32:25so second thing is that just the Indians
0:32:28more mouth maybe not more important
0:32:29because i do think names are important
0:32:30but the the honestly indignation that I
0:32:34feel towards the way twitter is is
0:32:36acting towards third party developers
0:32:38and their api's and it's ink brought to
0:32:43light by this app.net thing and as these
0:32:45app.net clients start appearing where
0:32:49it's explicit not even implicit it's not
0:32:52like you have to kind of like swinton
0:32:53think about it it's like absolutely
0:32:55clear as day one of the few things it's
0:32:57as clear as day in the twitter api
0:32:58guidelines is if you're using the
0:33:01twitter api you cannot enter mix the
0:33:05tweets that you're getting or any of the
0:33:07data you're getting from twitter with
0:33:08the content from anything that even any
0:33:11other service
0:33:12yeah and that to me is such bullshit it
0:33:14is exactly like an email provider like
0:33:17imagine an email provider that said you
0:33:18cannot put any email from us into a
0:33:22unified inbox
0:33:24yeah imagine google saying that about
0:33:26retail clients of something yet that it
0:33:29just makes no sense because it's just
0:33:30totally and again and you know and and
0:33:34people often call me out on this because
0:33:36you know I i will write pieces that were
0:33:41i'm not i really don't see myself as
0:33:43defending apple's app store i'm trying
0:33:45to explain what they're thinking and I'm
0:33:48so I do understand I'm not
0:33:50I'm not saying Twitter can't do this you
0:33:52know or even that they're morally wrong
0:33:55for doing i just think that they're
0:33:56being foolish because I think being that
0:34:00what's the word showering and arrogant
0:34:04sure it will say they've lost the love
0:34:06of this room and and many rooms like it
0:34:08exactly it is you know it's easy to say
0:34:12that that hardcore geeks don't matter
0:34:14much but what we do because we tell our
0:34:16parents and siblings and family
0:34:18what software to use and and you know we
0:34:21have an outsized amount of power and
0:34:24when you lose the geeks you lose a lot I
0:34:27think
0:34:28well they've turned our backs on a lot
0:34:29of people who truly had and even have
0:34:32remaining in to some extent but its
0:34:34dwindling affection for twitter right
0:34:36right like a really liked them and
0:34:40they've just turned their backs on that
0:34:41and it just seems like that is something
0:34:43that they seem to be acting as though
0:34:45it's irrelevant now whereas I don't
0:34:48think that's the case at all
0:34:49I i think that they should be to the top
0:34:52levels absolutely positively like hey we
0:34:55need to actually have like one of these
0:34:57like change courses right now thing
0:35:00because of just even the extent that
0:35:02app.net got off the ground whether it
0:35:05stays up like i said it's will see it
0:35:07seems iffy but the fact that there was
0:35:08any enthusiasm at all for it really
0:35:11should have I think if i were there i
0:35:13would be like this is this is awful
0:35:15we've you know this is existence proof
0:35:17that we have screwed this up
0:35:18mm yep and into me just you know it just
0:35:21seems so ridiculous like why wouldn't
0:35:23you let them integrate tweets into some
0:35:25other thing if that's what they want to
0:35:27do
0:35:27sure you know let a thousand flowers
0:35:30bloom right let all know let people
0:35:32write all kinds of software it's just
0:35:34going to make your your service all the
0:35:36more valuable and beloved right and
0:35:38they're like no I and you know and it
0:35:41off tonight I think it easily comes back
0:35:43to you know a lot of the stuff you've
0:35:45done like RSS and now the difference is
0:35:47twitter is in a unique position where
0:35:49they can do this because they are become
0:35:51so popular they are big that they can do
0:35:54it and they can make you know developers
0:35:58write separate apps for appt dotnet
0:36:01then Twitter even though it would make a
0:36:04lot more sense if they would just
0:36:05integrated into the same app right I but
0:36:10it reminds me of publishers who like
0:36:12wouldn't want to publish RSS feeds or
0:36:15wouldn't want to publish full data RSS
0:36:17feeds and of course there's are good
0:36:19reasons there are reasons you think like
0:36:20we'll all of our ads are coming this
0:36:22other way we don't have ads in the RSS
0:36:24we don't know what to do but when you
0:36:26like try to take your stuff and keep it
0:36:28in your own little box it's good stuff
0:36:30never happens because the users people
0:36:32that I say users but just people want
0:36:34this stuff to just let me put it where I
0:36:37want right right exactly
0:36:39yeah and trying to control stuff in that
0:36:42way is some swimming against the time
0:36:45that's rarely works out I and I you know
0:36:50the netnews wiser net new newswires a
0:36:52perfect example where my life a year
0:36:56before to a year after the existence of
0:36:58netnewswire was that i was suddenly
0:37:00reading all sorts of stuff not on the
0:37:03website where it was written which may
0:37:05be you know in some ways was a loss for
0:37:08those websites if I previously read them
0:37:10but reading so much more in the
0:37:12aggregate including a lot of sources
0:37:14where I wouldn't be reading them
0:37:16regularly at all and at least I'm
0:37:17reading right and so I can't help but
0:37:19think that it was a win for so many
0:37:21websites not that me in particular was
0:37:24reading it but that every you know
0:37:26everybody using that newswire was really
0:37:28poor reading a lot more then than they
0:37:30could have before yeah right
0:37:31I and you know and then it comes down to
0:37:33you know there's nothing just too many
0:37:35people but you know people who accuses
0:37:38app like Instapaper of somehow was
0:37:42surfing or Flipboard or something like
0:37:45that of stepping on the toes are pointed
0:37:47out it's really know it's there just
0:37:49giving people other options for
0:37:52consuming your content and shouldn't you
0:37:53just be thrilled that people want to
0:37:55consume want to read your stuff
0:37:56yeah absolutely hopefully that's your
0:37:58call and if not choose another business
0:38:02i think and and I just think Twitter is
0:38:04totally lost it so what was my third
0:38:05thing my third thing was oh I don't know
0:38:07but i have a dip to Costello Castello's
0:38:10story actually gotten that is good and
0:38:12I think I I haven't thought about this
0:38:15in years but it was at acosta Costolo
0:38:18CEO and your twitter chief executive
0:38:22officer and chief dick officer of bread
0:38:24right so it's easy to not like him
0:38:27because he's in charge of this whole
0:38:29thing and it seems awful but the first
0:38:31time I met him was years ago and it was
0:38:33evening at adler or the first c4 perhaps
0:38:36and times in chicago and I'd just
0:38:40started working in newsgator and
0:38:42feedburner was in Chicago and dick was
0:38:44at feedburner and both those companies
0:38:46were funded by Brad Feld and I don't
0:38:49know mobius whatever he was doing at the
0:38:51time so you know Brad encouraged me to
0:38:53go to the paper printer offices and meet
0:38:56dick and everybody and so I go into
0:38:57their office and it's a big open space
0:38:59and I I walk in there and I can't
0:39:02remember his dick or somebody else um
0:39:04introduces me to the entire company all
0:39:06at once and this is C probably 2,000 for
0:39:10something like that news when I was just
0:39:11starting to become a really big hit and
0:39:13of course the guys at feedburner had
0:39:15stats on the head knew exactly how big
0:39:17it was and the entire office applauded
0:39:20me and I was just really really fucking
0:39:25cool i just like for being the guy who
0:39:28wrote the software you know that added
0:39:30loved that and then we went out to lunch
0:39:32and dick was charming and funny i think
0:39:35is a theater background and I had a
0:39:37great time and it was it's only years
0:39:39later I'm like I want to kick it down
0:39:43it's just it's it's so easy you have
0:39:47right to go with the joke about his name
0:39:49but really you can't help it right yeah
0:39:52I had a torch here church dick
0:39:55areas if I had an uncle dick my father's
0:40:01my father's brother was was Richard
0:40:04grouper and and everybody calling dick
0:40:06but he was a little bit older even than
0:40:08my dad and he died a couple years ago
0:40:10but he was up that generation now he was
0:40:14like you know dick cheney and and those
0:40:16guys Sammy was you know that grandpa
0:40:18dick
0:40:19yeah Davis him i was a good name back
0:40:21then but yeah totally
0:40:22yeah yeah ma a white mug with black
0:40:25lettering big bull letters dick cheney
0:40:28drank his coffee out of that every
0:40:30morning and I'm like that's a hell of a
0:40:31good way to start at center for some
0:40:34reason the name seems to have fallen out
0:40:35of favor in recent decades though let's
0:40:39bring it back alright name your kids
0:40:41dick even the girls all right so last
0:40:45thing on apt and we can probably wrap up
0:40:47the show with it but I didn't think that
0:40:48it was really an interesting experiment
0:40:51and I certainly have the belief that
0:40:55native clients native for the mac native
0:40:58for iOS are the way to go for so many to
0:41:02it if at all possible that's the way to
0:41:04go and it just makes everything better
0:41:06latency is better interface is better
0:41:09you can you're less restricted about
0:41:11where things go you can make things look
0:41:13just right and as hard as it may be and
0:41:16you can go back to you know Brad's talk
0:41:20about how hard it is to get things
0:41:21looking exactly right when you're truly
0:41:23a perfectionist
0:41:24it certainly is a lot how hard it can be
0:41:27how much work way easier with a native
0:41:29app then with with the web a great
0:41:31example i think was tweeted or outfit or
0:41:33something by I think Matt trance you put
0:41:35up a screenshot of that wet wet platform
0:41:38dot org or something
0:41:40have you seen this downside well it's
0:41:42talking about the web as a platform and
0:41:44of course if you open it on your iphone
0:41:46it it is completely fucked up that like
0:41:49that like yep and that pretty much just
0:41:51nails it you know and and it i also ties
0:41:55in again to Marco's talk from yesterday
0:41:58and Marco at one point he was talking
0:42:00about a conference that he had spoken
0:42:02and he didn't mention because I i I'd it
0:42:05was ended up being a rather unpleasant
0:42:06experience but as he described it
0:42:08it was a a conference for web developers
0:42:12and web designers and Marco you know who
0:42:15he did work at tumblr on but you know is
0:42:19certainly far more well known for his
0:42:21work on clients like guys to paper on
0:42:23and and more or less the message he gave
0:42:26was you guys shouldn't be thinking so
0:42:29much about the web you should be
0:42:30thinking about what's the best
0:42:31experience for users and a lot of cases
0:42:33it's going to be a nap a native app and
0:42:37I maybe even only a native app and he
0:42:41held up Instagram as an example here I
0:42:44am getting my instant papers and
0:42:45instagrams exactly right
0:42:47so far i have made a mistake I and I
0:42:50think that pixma tourism to sponsor to
0:42:52yeah I want to hear that in person we
0:42:54know i would say with a French accent
0:42:55come back pics of mixing mentor and make
0:42:57sure this will be stopped
0:42:59yeah but I thought that and I I thought
0:43:04Marco didn't extrapolate that though to
0:43:06the right degree of Marco is you know is
0:43:07usually he's a nice guy but he is not
0:43:10artificially humble is that he kind of
0:43:13took away from that I gave these guys
0:43:14this message and he got beat the ends up
0:43:16long story short heat that this
0:43:17conference gives all the attendees get
0:43:19to rank the speakers and Marco came out
0:43:21ranked very very poorly or dead last or
0:43:24something like that
0:43:24not because what he said wasn't true and
0:43:26said he was exactly true and Instagram
0:43:28was a remarkably app thing because they
0:43:31sold for a billion fucking dollars
0:43:32yeah i mean are now it's like and then
0:43:34they were hundred million building
0:43:36facing users to yeah but yeah but then
0:43:38they have they still have more and more
0:43:40users and it is by all accounts the most
0:43:45successful social networking thing to
0:43:48have launched in the last couple of
0:43:49years on so it was a great example he
0:43:52was exactly that that's the thing is he
0:43:54should draw satisfaction from the fact
0:43:56that he was dead right
0:43:57the reason he got ranked poorly by the
0:43:59speaker's wasn't cuz what he said wasn't
0:44:00good advice and it wasn't true is
0:44:02because it wasn't what they wanted to
0:44:03hear exactly what is it that this crowd
0:44:06doesn't want to hear that we can tell
0:44:07them there has to be something
0:44:11bars closed bars plus
0:44:14I can't think of anything yeah I don't
0:44:16have been something i think but i think
0:44:18that's one of the great things about
0:44:19this conference though is that people
0:44:20who have come here at our thinking ahead
0:44:23but and and to Marco's point about maybe
0:44:26you should think about a nap i thought
0:44:28the interesting thing about app.net is
0:44:30it seemed to me like uses was going down
0:44:31and down and down and then met bought
0:44:33shipped and there was this huge spike
0:44:37yeah that that day was like the change
0:44:39and I i'm sure they will always remember
0:44:42that day right when that Bob Knepper
0:44:44comes out and suddenly it would validate
0:44:47validate everything and there were you
0:44:49know a lot of new users and a lot of
0:44:51activity in yeah i think that the idea I
0:44:56i think there was only when it was
0:44:57almost taken his religion is that once
0:45:01we got to the point where you could
0:45:02write web apps and web apps would run
0:45:04everywhere that was like some sort of
0:45:06endpoint in the continuum of how
0:45:09software evolved and that they're not
0:45:10everybody certainly not everybody but
0:45:12there were a large number of people who
0:45:14I think sort of took it and still take
0:45:16it and i think that they and now they
0:45:18give marco check minuses on his talks a
0:45:21little that they've broken this dogma
0:45:24that web apps are the future and I think
0:45:27people are still dug in on that and that
0:45:29there was you see a lot of people and
0:45:30they look at the app store and success
0:45:32and they say well that's just temporary
0:45:33soon you know web apps will take over
0:45:36that and i don't i don't think that's
0:45:38true yeah I I don't buy it because of
0:45:41some sort of arms is exactly but it's
0:45:45kinda like that what we as client
0:45:46developers are going to be able to do is
0:45:48always going to outstrip what the web
0:45:51can do now so people who love web
0:45:54development will say hey we're getting
0:45:55this and this and be like hey great
0:45:58awesome that's you're going to really
0:45:59enjoy that but meanwhile we're gonna be
0:46:01you know another mile ahead because it's
0:46:03not like the platform stops and waits
0:46:06for quality it totally doesn't one of my
0:46:10all-time favorite brand
0:46:12Simmons isms I i don't know how many
0:46:16years ago was it could be a long time
0:46:17ago
0:46:18yeah i'll never forget it but you were
0:46:20writing about why Randy was clearly
0:46:23predates the iphone
0:46:25it was why write software for the mac
0:46:27and maybe it was in response to joel's
0:46:29polski thing talking about just how much
0:46:31bigger the windows market / was I and
0:46:34your piece was that it went beyond
0:46:36economics in a you know it wasn't about
0:46:39the size of the audience
0:46:40it was that writing mac apps was the
0:46:44show Yeah Yeah with a capital S yeah
0:46:47right
0:46:47it's the only big league there is or at
0:46:50the time of course now we have iOS but
0:46:52yeah
0:46:52the idea was if you're if you're making
0:46:55software you care about user experience
0:46:57first and and everything you do comes
0:47:01from that that premise right
0:47:04your choice of platform your choice of
0:47:05technologies all choices start with user
0:47:09experience and wanting to do the very
0:47:10best and i'm an ambitious and wanted to
0:47:13play in that you know it in the best
0:47:15playground that there was and because
0:47:18everything else sucks and you know it to
0:47:21throw another I keep it you know because
0:47:25the show is a reference to like that's
0:47:27bad like a baseball term for making it
0:47:29to them to the big leagues right major
0:47:31leagues where baseball professional
0:47:33baseball United States has these
0:47:34hierarchies of you know they're all
0:47:36professional but you go from a to
0:47:38double-a to triple-a and I don't even
0:47:41know i might not even be thousands of
0:47:42players active at any given time as it
0:47:45was fill all these teams and all sorts
0:47:47of local team you know all really small
0:47:49towns have a professional baseball team
0:47:51but it's you know amateurs or not
0:47:53amateurs but guys making like a thousand
0:47:55dollars a month
0:47:56yeah right sleeping on buses and
0:47:57something that and then you make it to
0:47:59the show yeah that's the real deal and
0:48:01all of a sudden the bright lights are on
0:48:03and the big money's there and you're not
0:48:05playing in front of 700 people you're
0:48:07playing in front of 35,000 people
0:48:10yep yeah and you're on television and
0:48:12you have groupies and and you make a
0:48:15mistake and it's on the front page of
0:48:16the sports section the next day
0:48:18that's right and if you do something
0:48:19good it's on the front page escort
0:48:20section the next day
0:48:21yeah so their scrutiny yeah absolutely
0:48:25yeah but it's really i think it comes
0:48:26down to you you've got to be obsessed em
0:48:29right like so why play baseball instead
0:48:31of basketball for those guys to play
0:48:32baseball because that's the sport there
0:48:34you know a lot of guys who are athletic
0:48:35could do anything but it is a sport that
0:48:38activates the mind and you can't get you
0:48:41can't get unhooked from it and I think
0:48:42that's what great user experiences for a
0:48:44developer like you
0:48:45yeah I have nothing to add to that that
0:48:50will bring thank you for being here
0:48:51thank you to the hosts at singleton
0:48:54absolutely thank you so much even even
0:48:56with the bad badges it was remarkable
0:48:58and extraordinarily generous to offer
0:49:01the states to me to do the show here
0:49:02today and absolutely most of all thank
0:49:06you to all of you who who stayed here to
0:49:08watch this it's always a thrill to do a
0:49:11show live and just a great throw
0:49:14thanks John Thank You Brent
0:49:17[Applause]