The Talk Show

21: Looper, with Rian Johnson and Adam Lisagor


00:00:00   my favorite sentence i saw written about

00:00:01   it was Anthony lanes review in The New

00:00:03   Yorker and just what does the sentence

00:00:05   that got me it just said what happens if

00:00:06   you hit you in the face and take off

00:00:09   would be pissed if it doesn't then gave

00:00:14   it and yeah I can't really landed

00:00:15   punches really tried so i guess i'd be

00:00:18   ok i am here and what we call it

00:00:23   sandwich studios sure what ya never

00:00:25   grabbed never come up with a name for it

00:00:27   well I'm diagonally studios that looks

00:00:30   to the ring to it here in beautiful Los

00:00:32   Angeles California it is a twenty-fourth

00:00:35   of october and I've got two very special

00:00:37   guests with me i have ryan Johnson

00:00:40   writer and director of looper smash-hit

00:00:44   time-travel sci-fi movie and friend of

00:00:49   the show a longtime friend of the show

00:00:50   Adamle score i will i should point out i

00:00:53   think also upfront is that I've warned

00:00:55   all of you on previous episodes that you

00:00:57   were too obscene looper by now

00:00:59   the show will be very spoiler riffic you

00:01:02   should keep it up on your ipod to listen

00:01:04   to later if if you haven't seen the

00:01:06   movie and shame on you for not having

00:01:08   seen that are who has an ipod anymore

00:01:10   well iphone i don't know i have an ipod

00:01:13   do you really yeah because I like to

00:01:14   have my whole music collection the

00:01:16   classic is the only one that's got that

00:01:17   much capacity so boom

00:01:20   ok I didn't alright I will do what you

00:01:24   gotta say you can say that again saying

00:01:27   I have nothing to say except iCloud well

00:01:30   but that's really we don't need nobody

00:01:32   don't my client has a 25,000 song

00:01:35   limited for someone with the music

00:01:37   collection as studly as mine that

00:01:39   actually presents a problem you do love

00:01:40   music and this is something i wanted to

00:01:42   actually ask about as well in relation

00:01:44   to the so it's been a it's been how long

00:01:49   now since the movie came out spend like

00:01:51   3-4 weeks now and you've done you you've

00:01:55   done quite a number of interviews and

00:01:57   press for it and you and I've tried to

00:02:01   absorb all of it i mean we

00:02:03   its weak just because I wanted to not

00:02:06   talk about stuff that you've talked

00:02:08   about as impossible there that's the

00:02:10   thing there's only so many things you

00:02:12   can ask about

00:02:12   the movie you know it's true but button

00:02:15   there are a million facets of the

00:02:17   process of making the movie i think i'm

00:02:19   alright do you like talking about hello

00:02:21   i would I gather you do because I

00:02:22   listened to your commentary and and I

00:02:27   can get a sense for what you like

00:02:28   talking about because you didn't have

00:02:29   anybody prompting you just had your

00:02:31   movie to respond to feel so naked before

00:02:34   you but I'm excited about this to be

00:02:37   fair we are naked right and you think

00:02:39   that is one of the event requisite in

00:02:42   which students that's kind of where it

00:02:44   gets its name music it's like I know

00:02:46   what that means but yeah yeah um well

00:02:51   that's a good place to start that was

00:02:52   one of the things that you've done and I

00:02:53   I i don't know if it is unprecedented I

00:02:56   don't know if you've stolen the idea

00:02:58   from somebody else but you have issued a

00:03:00   what would you call it a commentary

00:03:02   track you know standalone and the

00:03:04   intention is the movie is obviously it's

00:03:06   still in theaters it's not out it's not

00:03:07   for the DVD it's not for the blu-ray

00:03:09   intentions you loaded up on your ipod

00:03:12   Adam get in the theater for the second

00:03:16   time you watch the movie you sit there

00:03:18   with your headphones on and you've got

00:03:19   writer-director ryan Johnson talking to

00:03:22   you throughout the movie like you're

00:03:23   watching a DVD with the commentary it's

00:03:26   pretty it's pretty so pretty great and I

00:03:29   listened to it without without the movie

00:03:31   like I thanks man

00:03:33   does anyone know i mean like as i slide

00:03:34   business this is a battle ok this is I

00:03:39   have to explain myself I I i went back

00:03:42   and saw the movie a second time

00:03:44   okay um and I wanted to take notes

00:03:46   during it so I didn't want to sources of

00:03:47   information competing gadget and then I

00:03:51   went home after I watched the movie and

00:03:53   I put the commentary on by itself

00:03:55   without the movie and a challenge it

00:03:58   challenged me to do something I didn't

00:04:00   expect that would be doing which is

00:04:01   trying to recreate the movie in my head

00:04:03   right through it right which with a

00:04:06   visually strong movie like this is

00:04:09   easier to do because it's not

00:04:12   wall-to-wall dialogue and long takes and

00:04:14   everything it's a lot of really

00:04:16   well-composed stuff which is what angry

00:04:18   which is what you do know

00:04:20   so what I want to get back to the

00:04:26   commentary stuff as well but i wanted to

00:04:29   first I want to start out by

00:04:31   congratulating you on something I i

00:04:34   thought was even more impressive by then

00:04:36   the in theater commentary which is that

00:04:39   on opening night of the movie

00:04:43   yeah you did you did something that was

00:04:46   a lie i found so impressive and it was

00:04:49   that in la here we we have a we have a

00:04:52   theater a movie theater that's the best

00:04:55   theater in town is called the arclight

00:04:56   scott stadium seating you can reserve

00:04:58   your seat and everything and always go

00:05:00   for a row j johnson yeah yeah and the

00:05:06   ushers are they all wear these kind of

00:05:10   embarrassing purple banded collar short

00:05:13   sleeve button-down share what you know

00:05:15   button button up shirts and I've always

00:05:18   wanted to like find one of these shirts

00:05:21   to be a halloween i now have one in my

00:05:23   closet

00:05:23   ok but i would love to borrow thank you

00:05:27   for offering and so what you did is you

00:05:29   you without you know giving up the gag

00:05:34   you posed oh and these officers

00:05:36   introduce the movie every single

00:05:38   screening of a movie they got in front

00:05:40   of the audience to say thank you for

00:05:41   coming to the arclight you're going to

00:05:43   be watching such-and-such movie please

00:05:45   silence your cell phones & Ryan did this

00:05:47   in front of an expecting audience and

00:05:50   one of your friends videotape yeah video

00:05:52   and it was amazing it was a pretty

00:05:55   impressive and I don't know how many

00:05:56   people knew that it was you then and

00:05:59   there now that's one of the nice things

00:06:00   nobody knows what directors look like so

00:06:02   right here there are a couple people

00:06:03   snickering bed yeah well it was such a

00:06:06   lie i feel like it was just it's a

00:06:08   perfect emblem of yours that the spirit

00:06:10   of the love of movies that you have and

00:06:13   what you put you put into

00:06:17   that experience now you've gone through

00:06:18   three times with releasing a feature

00:06:20   film is it's always so kind of giving

00:06:23   that you want to put everything you have

00:06:25   into the audience's enjoyment of movie

00:06:27   that's that that's what that's what

00:06:30   struck me about that my kissing your ass

00:06:32   that's a very kind way of putting that

00:06:34   and I appreciate that it was a fun thing

00:06:36   for me to do that so that's a very kind

00:06:37   of flattering way of putting it

00:06:39   another thing that the ushers do as they

00:06:41   were in tag ya around their neck with on

00:06:43   a lanyard that says therefore the name

00:06:45   of their favorite movie

00:06:46   yeah you know I borrowed one from

00:06:48   somebody i forget what his favorite

00:06:49   movie was it was not my favorite thing

00:06:51   huh

00:06:52   so maybe I Terminator 3 and maybe the

00:06:56   rise of the machines you go

00:06:58   yeah so that was fun

00:07:02   um I learned a lot about stuff that I

00:07:07   the the technical stuff behind the

00:07:10   process of making the movie from your

00:07:12   commentary just like things like the I

00:07:17   mean you talked a bit about your choice

00:07:19   in lens flare and and your lens choice

00:07:21   and shooting a more anamorphic format

00:07:23   and everything

00:07:24   yeah here's a question why why do

00:07:30   anamorphic lens flares work for you and

00:07:33   what do you mean like why is that

00:07:35   exactly what do you think it says about

00:07:36   about the frame

00:07:39   well if you get that purple blues yeah a

00:07:42   little streak

00:07:43   well I mean it's really distinct to

00:07:44   anamorphic lenses it's it's something

00:07:46   it's something that doesn't look like

00:07:48   anything else and I like it when it

00:07:51   feels organic and the frame usually when

00:07:54   when there is a light source in the shot

00:07:58   that you can see that it's actually

00:07:59   coming from

00:08:01   so when there's a there's a lot of the

00:08:02   instances in the movie there's like a

00:08:04   helicopter with the you know the light

00:08:07   coming right in the camera or there's a

00:08:09   scene between Joe and Paul Danos

00:08:11   character where they're in the kitchen

00:08:12   and the whole thing is designed to be

00:08:15   lit by this refrigerator that's open and

00:08:18   the bear refrigerator bulb in there and

00:08:20   there's a really distinct Flair that's

00:08:21   coming off of that in one shot it

00:08:23   crosses processes eyes

00:08:25   yeah we lined it up just right so that

00:08:26   you could kind of so because the whole

00:08:29   thing is he's

00:08:30   always spilling his guts out and Jose

00:08:32   kind of sitting and you're trying to

00:08:33   read what how Joe's reacting to what

00:08:36   she's gonna do and was going to do and

00:08:37   the idea of like a mask across his eyes

00:08:40   but I yeah yeah I know for me it i think

00:08:43   it looks cool

00:08:43   first and foremost I think it it also

00:08:46   has a very comforting sort of reminds me

00:08:50   of early Spielberg movies and you know

00:08:53   close encounters an ET and there's

00:08:56   something about it that just feels like

00:08:59   a movie to me it's interesting that it's

00:09:03   become something that people are are

00:09:05   familiar with you know from I know JJ

00:09:07   Abrams uses it quite a bit but a just a

00:09:10   little just a little bit yeah

00:09:12   is it i'm curious is it something that

00:09:14   you you talking in the commentary as

00:09:16   well about a couple of effects shots

00:09:18   that you actually used fake lens flare

00:09:22   and well sounds or artifacts well it

00:09:24   would know what we did was for the

00:09:27   helicopters which were cg helicopters

00:09:31   and they I i had had a bad experience

00:09:35   with CG helicopters on the brothers

00:09:37   bloom we had a full daylight shot where

00:09:40   helicopters had to go through and we had

00:09:42   to create that we can't afford real

00:09:44   helicopters we had to create cartoon

00:09:45   helicopters and to me they always are

00:09:47   how hard we worked on them they always

00:09:49   look like cartoon helicopters so I've

00:09:51   been very frustrated I knew there were a

00:09:52   lot of flying vehicles and this one our

00:09:55   advantage was they were all gonna be at

00:09:56   night and I had remember it's i had seen

00:09:59   the extras on the blade runner like

00:10:02   boxset where they showed the development

00:10:05   of the flying cars and they showed a

00:10:06   pass of the the effects pass before they

00:10:09   added in those really distinct of flares

00:10:11   those lights are coming off the cars and

00:10:14   they looked terrible it look like what

00:10:16   it was an optical comp but then when

00:10:18   they put those flaring lights on

00:10:20   suddenly forgave all the ills and it

00:10:23   looked awesome and so that's what we did

00:10:25   with these and so those r cg but and

00:10:30   then there were a couple instances where

00:10:32   we had to we shot something that had

00:10:35   lens flare but then we had to like pay

00:10:37   down the wire or something across the

00:10:39   lens there and then the

00:10:40   effects guys have to repaint the lens

00:10:41   flare but you're trying and I you I

00:10:43   think the trick is you try and keep it

00:10:45   organic

00:10:45   I gotta work sucks i used to work in

00:10:47   effects and I did invented backlit ones

00:10:50   there's no it's not fun

00:10:52   I'm so what what i was going maybe get

00:10:56   at was well okay so you wouldn't had

00:10:59   lens flares necessarily that weren't

00:11:03   organic which is a good thing

00:11:04   yeah um OH speed is another thing I

00:11:08   noticed about what helps sell the like

00:11:11   the cg vehicles or the like the blade

00:11:13   runner type optically comped flying cars

00:11:16   is that sound design that that you add

00:11:19   that makes it all the sudden a real

00:11:21   object rather which you can you used

00:11:25   great automotive sound design quite

00:11:28   literally in this movie

00:11:29   yeah like even in the trailer early on i

00:11:32   think there was a the first trailer i

00:11:35   saw which is more of a teaser had some

00:11:38   you know future car stuff that you just

00:11:41   sounded unlike any any automotive sound

00:11:44   design weekend we had a great sound

00:11:47   designer Jeremy person who had worked

00:11:50   actually we found him because we first

00:11:54   talked to skip leave say who works with

00:11:57   the Coen brothers and who that's kind of

00:11:59   and he's kind of like a and I kind of

00:12:03   worship that guy his the his work in the

00:12:07   Cohens movies was kind of the first time

00:12:09   I started really paying attention to how

00:12:11   sound was used as a storytelling device

00:12:14   integral to the film and so I we found

00:12:20   Jeremy through skip and Jeremy had

00:12:22   worked a lot with skip and and jeremy is

00:12:25   a tremendous sound designer and he I

00:12:28   think what he did was he took his cue

00:12:30   from the visuals he took you know and

00:12:32   from kind of the feel of the whole world

00:12:34   we're creating which was a very grounded

00:12:37   feel so you hear a lot of or you know a

00:12:41   lot of mechanical kind of worrying and

00:12:43   kind of you know stuff that sounds like

00:12:47   it's coming from a real engine is as

00:12:48   opposed to space-age but I think that's

00:12:50   because the visual visually all the

00:12:52   stuff in our movie looks like real

00:12:54   engines and so he was just yeah those

00:12:56   kilobyte to me has a sort of millennium

00:12:58   falcon starting up its yeah well that's

00:13:01   what I mean the first Star Wars was kind

00:13:03   of you know that was that was a big

00:13:04   touchstone in terms of I still think in

00:13:06   terms of sci-fi movies that's when you

00:13:08   know it's kind of that one of the most

00:13:11   convincing world that's that's ever been

00:13:13   created i think because everything feels

00:13:15   so lived in and so mechanical and so I

00:13:18   think they I'm either they either they

00:13:20   reused it or I'm I've lived last 30

00:13:24   years of my life and alive but at that

00:13:26   my kid net that Millennium Falcon

00:13:28   mechanical starting value was reused in

00:13:31   Raiders for the airplane that jock trial

00:13:34   that's funny jumps in the river if they

00:13:36   didn't we use it then it's I always

00:13:38   thought it was an in-joke because it

00:13:39   sounds almost identical but it says how

00:13:41   mechanical the Millennium Falcon was a

00:13:42   spaceship that you could reuse the sound

00:13:44   for a 1937 prop plane right well it's

00:13:48   funny to I remember it at in film school

00:13:51   at USC doing they showed like a

00:13:54   breakdown of the of sound effects in the

00:13:57   sequence where he was escaping from with

00:13:59   the idol in the very beginning right

00:14:01   that's the one where they reuse that

00:14:03   Falcon sign when he starts the plane

00:14:04   yeah when they and they talked about how

00:14:06   when that the boulder was rolling down

00:14:08   they close Mike the wheels of their VW

00:14:12   van on the gravel driveway and just got

00:14:16   the mic right up close to it and that

00:14:18   create that were kind of rolling stone

00:14:20   against own type type field or when Indy

00:14:24   is holding onto the pit and the doors

00:14:26   closing he starts to like it

00:14:28   the divine kind of starts tearing loose

00:14:31   you know that's that you can hear the

00:14:34   bite of an apple in there to hear that

00:14:36   camp as it's coming loose and so yeah

00:14:40   yeah it'sit's um but the sounds I mean

00:14:43   that you know besides just the sound

00:14:44   effects for the the sound design is a

00:14:47   really integral part of the story

00:14:49   telling and um so many the musical and

00:14:53   i'm just going to shift over to this

00:14:55   stain get on chance to shift somebody uh

00:14:59   you're going to see I'm going to

00:15:00   cleverly tie it back into the sound

00:15:01   design and wait so many of there are so

00:15:05   many mechanical elements in the music in

00:15:07   the in the score that your composure

00:15:11   need your cousin correct Nathan uses in

00:15:14   the score does doesn't go the other way

00:15:17   at all did

00:15:18   are there any musical elements that are

00:15:19   used in the sound design um not really

00:15:22   because they're kind of working and more

00:15:26   or less working separately and there's

00:15:27   sun because of the way Nathan works we

00:15:29   actually ended up getting oftentimes in

00:15:32   the mix to the point where we would have

00:15:34   to choose between one or the other

00:15:36   because the music and the sound design

00:15:37   work and doing the same thing and so so

00:15:41   no there there there yet but you know

00:15:44   their stuff in the sound design that's

00:15:45   very musical like there's a kind of

00:15:49   tonal beds that Jeremy will lay and that

00:15:51   will just be like the ambient sound in a

00:15:53   room but they'll have they'll be

00:15:55   performing the same function as music

00:15:57   we're locally grown we have they been

00:15:59   laying down a drone that gives like a

00:16:00   feeling of uneasiness or attention or

00:16:02   you know but also there's like a lot of

00:16:05   percussive missing your editing style

00:16:07   and yeah it feels like over and over

00:16:08   across the three movies you see these

00:16:12   moments of impact that are just expertly

00:16:14   achieved with cutting and sound

00:16:17   I mean the bet the probably the best

00:16:22   example in this movie is just the

00:16:23   blender but the you know the blunderbuss

00:16:25   going off the first time you see it it's

00:16:28   so impactful and it's and it's paired

00:16:30   with that just that frame of a cut when

00:16:34   the figure appears and then yeah yeah

00:16:36   are you

00:16:38   do musical background oh no not really i

00:16:41   died tool around on a couple instruments

00:16:44   but i'm not really but my favorite

00:16:47   editing is all you know the same way

00:16:50   that was talking about sound design with

00:16:52   the Cohens for me you know Scorsese is

00:16:54   is where it begins and ends in terms of

00:16:56   everything if you watch is ending its

00:16:58   it's all musical it's not you know it's

00:17:02   not continuity it's nights it's just

00:17:04   purely purely jazz and based on rhythm

00:17:07   and kind of you know it's got it's got

00:17:10   its own kind of music to it so so that's

00:17:14   I don't know that but the the places

00:17:17   that I really kind of learned anything

00:17:19   from watching that very integral to like

00:17:22   you're heading with where a musical

00:17:23   instrument you'd be good at

00:17:25   oh yeah that's right now we also i

00:17:27   should say we have a very talented very

00:17:29   talented editor them that worked with

00:17:31   Bob you say it was a rigid just you know

00:17:34   we ended up getting along really really

00:17:37   well just having a good working

00:17:39   relationship with the first time work

00:17:40   yeah first time working with him yeah

00:17:41   Adam you said you were talking to you i

00:17:44   love the adjective percussive for the

00:17:46   sound design and one that really stuck

00:17:48   out to me that really just got me so

00:17:50   unnerved was Sarah chopping the wood

00:17:53   mm and the sound of the acts hitting the

00:17:56   wood block

00:17:58   ah and percussive exactly was just over

00:18:01   and over and over again and I was so

00:18:02   when you listen carefully you can hear

00:18:05   some apple crumb yeah but i would

00:18:08   someone interrupted the diamond and

00:18:09   they're racking and then there's this

00:18:11   horrible horrible violent acts hitting

00:18:15   the wood over and over again a it makes

00:18:18   you wince and it's that something Jeremy

00:18:20   Delta at first I thought as a too big

00:18:23   but then I realize now that actually

00:18:25   especially for dialogue scene like that

00:18:27   that's kind of just backstory that she's

00:18:29   telling it's a really nice kind of

00:18:30   violent way of keeping you on your teeth

00:18:33   on edge during it and she really busted

00:18:35   herself up doing this she did actually

00:18:37   she is it's hard this swing an ax and

00:18:39   we'd after a bunch of takes of that her

00:18:41   shoulder was was actually really messed

00:18:43   up and

00:18:44   and for the rest of the shoot she

00:18:46   actually had a really hard time holding

00:18:48   stuff like anytime she had to hold a gun

00:18:51   with that arm

00:18:52   remember we had like a our prop guy

00:18:55   actually holding the end of the gun that

00:18:56   was out of frame at one point because

00:18:58   she couldn't support person for for long

00:19:00   enough

00:19:01   no oh let's see so i guess if we could

00:19:08   go back to like the automotive stuff you

00:19:11   you had constraints budgetary

00:19:13   constraints that led you to you and he

00:19:17   talked about this in your commentary a

00:19:19   little bit but that led you to go with a

00:19:21   certain era of cars for you know that

00:19:26   we're just cars in the world in 2044 m24

00:19:29   yeah um but you're able to justify it

00:19:35   other than budgetary ways talk about

00:19:38   that

00:19:38   yeah well you to you know anytime now I

00:19:41   watch a science-fiction movie that it

00:19:43   has not a huge budget and the first

00:19:46   thing I look at is how did they do the

00:19:48   cars

00:19:48   I mean anything that's new that's in the

00:19:50   future because that's the expensive

00:19:52   thing that you can't get around it's

00:19:54   like that's then that's the thing that

00:19:55   is guaranteed to change no matter what

00:19:57   your take on the future is the cars are

00:19:59   going to be different now

00:20:01   married 20 years from now than they are

00:20:02   now and and there are you know it's

00:20:06   always interesting look like if you look

00:20:07   at with a get wizard that the one with

00:20:12   the show with the even hot Gallic attica

00:20:17   attica did the way the approach that

00:20:19   they took with the retro but a very

00:20:21   specific kind of retro card that you

00:20:22   don't see very often it was like all the

00:20:24   specifically like these European retro

00:20:27   cars therefore into your eye and they

00:20:29   like an art deco yeah yeah yeahs says so

00:20:33   anyway so you have the the approach we

00:20:36   took because we knew we are creating

00:20:37   this grounded broken-down society was to

00:20:40   say okay well it's like the yank tanks

00:20:42   and Q about like people had to make

00:20:44   their cars last for 20 30 years and so

00:20:46   so yeah we took with that in that way

00:20:49   we're able to take cars from now and

00:20:51   then just age them way down

00:20:53   and make them look like i've had new

00:20:56   engines kind of put into them and and it

00:20:59   seems like not even just now it was like

00:21:00   it was maybe 10 and 15 years ago some of

00:21:03   the animals yeah it feels like like the

00:21:06   way you talk about gattaca referring to

00:21:08   that arrow like the Art Deco era of to

00:21:11   take its the production design cues

00:21:13   yeah I kind of think that your movie

00:21:15   kinda took a lot of cues from the

00:21:17   nineteen nineties like for a lot of the

00:21:19   the wardrobe choices and you know just

00:21:23   like with the hairstyles even and I i

00:21:28   like i like the idea as the character

00:21:31   edge ft animals character Abe talks

00:21:34   about when he's making fun of jo Jung

00:21:36   Joos ty yeah his cravat and he calls it

00:21:41   a graphic at it you never heard it never

00:21:43   mind that i'm going to say it that way

00:21:45   from the rabbit

00:21:46   um is that that these things are

00:21:49   cyclical right and so you kind of have

00:21:51   to imagine that this world of 2044 2044

00:21:55   yeah has already gone through the whole

00:21:57   back to the seventies and eighties and

00:21:59   nineties and exactly 40 50 60 all well

00:22:02   there's also there's a man you know if

00:22:04   he if you know if you were in whatever

00:22:08   if you were in the sixties designing a

00:22:11   film that was going to be said in the

00:22:12   our future of 2012

00:22:15   you know if you look at this right here

00:22:17   in 2012 you know we were in 2012 and my

00:22:20   watches from the fifties you know and

00:22:22   and you most of the stuff that were

00:22:24   wearing you could have seen on somebody

00:22:26   20-30 years ago I think that it's a i

00:22:30   don't know i died i wanted to the same

00:22:33   way that good period stuff good period

00:22:37   design doesn't draw just front like a

00:22:39   movie set in 1963 a big mistake is to

00:22:42   have everything in the person's bedroom

00:22:44   beef circa nineteen sixty-three define

00:22:46   stuff from the four days and from the

00:22:48   three and stuff that would be handed

00:22:49   down and thrift thrift shop stuff so

00:22:52   taking that as you approach the future

00:22:55   seem to make a lot of sense but one

00:22:56   thing I thought to with the choice of

00:22:57   the cars

00:22:59   and aging them even to is it laid this

00:23:03   backdrop of what the economics the

00:23:09   economy of the u.s. in money 44 without

00:23:12   anybody ever talking about it or

00:23:13   mentioning it and it was this palpable

00:23:15   sense of methods things have not gone

00:23:18   well the next 30 years

00:23:20   yeah the the miata is the hottest car

00:23:23   yeah and and the only successful people

00:23:26   seem to be gangsters red team's in the

00:23:30   criminal world

00:23:31   yeah there you go my dad drove my dad

00:23:33   drove me out and making 90 and it was

00:23:35   the most futuristic thing you ever see

00:23:37   ya then

00:23:38   well I like the idea of it being it's

00:23:39   funny though I realized forget if I talk

00:23:41   about this in the commentary and talk

00:23:43   about macgruber

00:23:44   yeah yeah and yeah pretty taxing joke

00:23:47   yeah as macGruber where they like you

00:23:49   think it's gonna be a hot sports car and

00:23:50   they reveal to me odda and I saw that

00:23:52   while we were editing for the first time

00:23:54   where time but you didn't every mazda

00:23:57   miata signage on the car now anyway gate

00:24:01   I know it is yeah I don't know if we got

00:24:03   clearance because we actually there was

00:24:06   a futuristic car that Bruce drove in a

00:24:10   sequence that got cut

00:24:12   actually that was a this crazy concept

00:24:15   mazda so i think we had were working

00:24:18   with in 2044 into money 70 whatever yeah

00:24:23   yeah yeah so my favorite future car of

00:24:25   all time is probably in woody allen's

00:24:27   sleeper

00:24:28   oh yeah if you can tell it's it's

00:24:30   plywood held together with strap as well

00:24:32   be a Oscar Meyer Weiner yeah let me take

00:24:37   one quick let me take a quick break and

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00:25:28   okay can we go back to like just going

00:25:31   through period you know cyclical period

00:25:33   and culture and anachronism and you are

00:25:38   a person who you've either like you

00:25:42   you're sort of planted in in a lot of

00:25:44   different periods in time 33 your

00:25:46   story-telling there's tons of it and

00:25:50   brothers bloom obviously in brick all of

00:25:55   the style the storytelling and the

00:25:57   dialogue and everything it all comes

00:26:00   from a period of of story you know

00:26:02   storytelling from what the would you say

00:26:04   the forties

00:26:05   i well it's been a man ham it so its

00:26:08   earlier

00:26:08   okay 30 do you feel like you're a you

00:26:15   ever feel like you and your watches from

00:26:16   the fifties do you ever feel like year

00:26:18   of a different time and place into you

00:26:20   do you I'm not to say an old soul or

00:26:23   something stupid like that but do you

00:26:24   ever feel like you know I don't know I

00:26:28   feel like I feel like I feel like this

00:26:31   is the moment that we're in this is the

00:26:33   time that we're living and I feel like

00:26:34   one of the things that's exciting about

00:26:36   right now is especially i don't know i

00:26:41   did especially the fact that culture has

00:26:43   become so how exactly phrase this I did

00:26:49   you know it feels right now like the

00:26:54   idea of like everything from the past is

00:26:59   up on the surface seriously and

00:27:00   instantly accessible and remixes ball

00:27:03   and only the best from every period of

00:27:06   every culture and absolutely absolutely

00:27:09   it's more accessible than ever and so

00:27:10   for me that's that's not that that's

00:27:13   entirely of this moment you know the

00:27:15   fact that we're drawing from all over

00:27:17   the place

00:27:19   you know Indian mixing styles and errors

00:27:22   completely indiscriminately and now even

00:27:24   the gig look at the furniture in this

00:27:25   room you know look at that next to that

00:27:27   next to that you look at that you know

00:27:30   the the design it's kind of just taking

00:27:32   whatever works and for me with

00:27:35   filmmaking like I think it's the same

00:27:37   thing really it's it's all about

00:27:40   whatever is going to serve the story

00:27:42   best it's all about what's going to get

00:27:44   at the heart of what I'm trying to talk

00:27:46   about the best and for each of these

00:27:49   movies that there's a different reason

00:27:51   that they have those kind of

00:27:52   anachronistic things and them

00:27:54   yeah but it's never because out of a

00:27:57   sense of nostalgia for an area or a

00:27:59   sense of what pining for an era it's

00:28:01   always and because that specific thing

00:28:05   makes me feel a certain way and so

00:28:07   that's that communicates something

00:28:09   that's very important to me right now in

00:28:11   this moment I look at wes anderson's

00:28:13   movies in in that light yeah with the

00:28:15   way he just decided you know does

00:28:17   production design and chooses artifacts

00:28:20   as object yeah so carefully from all

00:28:23   throughout time you know through all

00:28:25   throughout the 20th century anyway I'm

00:28:27   in a movie like tetrault I'm bombs you

00:28:30   see ben stiller's character Chaz running

00:28:33   his whole his whole investment operation

00:28:37   with like you know 19 circa nineteen

00:28:40   eighty-three Apple to ya next to you

00:28:43   know late nineties cinema display right

00:28:45   over this from a text standpoint of your

00:28:47   technique or an apple nerd yeah you kind

00:28:49   of geek out over that stuff but I i feel

00:28:52   like i've heard him talk about that

00:28:53   before and he said exactly what you have

00:28:55   which is he just responds to the objects

00:28:58   that make the most sense

00:28:59   exactly about being necessarily you know

00:29:03   specific to period

00:29:04   yeah because he's creating a modern

00:29:06   world like you you know where you are

00:29:08   but it's a world where the people in

00:29:10   that world have taste and there's an

00:29:13   immediacy and that like Moonrise Kingdom

00:29:14   which i think is you know masterpiece I

00:29:17   think it's absolutely you know

00:29:20   my very favorite movies of the year

00:29:22   definitely but I you know he i don't

00:29:26   know he so many of the stuff in the so

00:29:32   many of the individual objects in there

00:29:34   could be considered an acronym cystic

00:29:35   the whole thing is built to and then

00:29:39   with such as and Sarah day that it busts

00:29:42   through that wall and takes it so far in

00:29:44   that direction that suddenly everything

00:29:46   and it is incredibly vital in stand it

00:29:49   hits you with an immediacy they're all

00:29:52   every object you see is an object that

00:29:53   you had as a child yeah and evoke

00:29:55   something that just that gets you right

00:29:57   there in the moment where you're

00:29:58   standing it doesn't smack of nostalgia

00:30:00   at all it has a vital necessity to it

00:30:03   that uh yeah that's extraordinary

00:30:07   yeah those are you know I was gonna say

00:30:08   the other I mean I don't know the other

00:30:09   interesting thing with them i guess this

00:30:13   is kind of a kind of a tangent but uh I

00:30:16   don't know essentially i always did I

00:30:18   think that there's talking about

00:30:20   west/andersen specifically makes me

00:30:23   think of the idea of i think that in a

00:30:27   lot of cases people tend to think that

00:30:31   director premeditate his style the way

00:30:35   that you would choose an outfit to put

00:30:38   on in the morning and because it's

00:30:41   specifically directors have very

00:30:43   distinct styles like Tim burden or west

00:30:46   anderson it's very easy to look at their

00:30:49   movies and think you know or i guess to

00:30:51   a lesser degree with what you're saying

00:30:52   with the period stuff with the films of

00:30:54   that done

00:30:55   it's easy to look at them and think you

00:30:57   know why did you make that choice those

00:30:58   um obviously made this set of choices in

00:31:01   order to and and the truth is I don't

00:31:04   know what that like I can only speak for

00:31:06   myself I may be very surprised if you

00:31:08   talk to Wes Anderson if he wasn't just

00:31:11   that it's really the equivalent speaking

00:31:14   in your voice you know it's not that

00:31:16   it's very little that's premeditated it

00:31:18   so it's almost like when you're talking

00:31:19   to somebody your natural accent of your

00:31:23   voice is not something you're

00:31:24   consciously controlling you're just

00:31:26   trying to communicate as clearly as

00:31:27   possible what's on your mind and you're

00:31:29   speaking in a way that's natural to you

00:31:30   if it's insulting when somebody's

00:31:32   just otherwise because it's almost like

00:31:34   if you're speaking your natural voice

00:31:35   and they say why are you doing that dumb

00:31:37   voice right now we're ahead

00:31:40   are you doing a dumb idiot impression

00:31:42   else well and also that you can see

00:31:44   though how its I know you you can see

00:31:46   that it's and if i call it it's

00:31:48   insulting someone's being insulting and

00:31:50   calling you dumb but it's it's also

00:31:52   something is very it's almost counter

00:31:54   instinct Schewel to look at the film and

00:31:57   and I talked about it and he quit you

00:32:00   know it's hard to communicate the degree

00:32:02   to which the some feeling of the film is

00:32:05   the process of a time that thousand tiny

00:32:08   little decisions to the point where

00:32:09   there is something very and you weirdly

00:32:14   you know the cumulative about it and

00:32:16   where lay the the direct product of

00:32:21   what's inside that they are solely

00:32:22   mystic pros yeah completely as opposed

00:32:25   to a determined one in that way

00:32:28   yeah um so you're right we could go back

00:32:33   to your the you feeling like you're a

00:32:35   man of your tub this time in place is

00:32:37   really exciting which I had this time

00:32:40   and is overall at you what you said was

00:32:44   you're a tiny little girl this time in

00:32:45   place and this and it's exciting that we

00:32:51   can't get to it we have access through

00:32:53   to through whatever archival technology

00:32:55   or whatever it is we have access to all

00:32:57   the best of of of all times and cultures

00:33:00   and everything if you were to explain

00:33:02   extrapolate that project into the future

00:33:04   you're going to be making movies and

00:33:05   telling stories for 10 20 30 years

00:33:08   bless you sir ok so do you ever think

00:33:13   about what its gonna be like to you know

00:33:14   what what it was gonna be like to make

00:33:17   these kinds of movies or whatever

00:33:18   stories were gonna be telling in in the

00:33:20   future and you mean adding mean likely i

00:33:24   mean like in the way that you feel like

00:33:26   we've you like if you could call it like

00:33:28   a singularity or something or unity

00:33:29   right now and do you think but I like I

00:33:33   I kind of like I look at that in a sort

00:33:36   of a relative sense and think that maybe

00:33:38   all 20 years ago they thought they had

00:33:40   reached unit is some sort of a unit and

00:33:42   sure they did ya

00:33:43   absolutely so I think it's important

00:33:45   though to always feel like it you know

00:33:47   and I mean I i think that it's no I

00:33:52   think it's incredibly important to to

00:33:53   feel like the moment you're in is the

00:33:56   most exciting moment hologram is in

00:33:58   there i think that I'm i hope that in

00:34:01   the future all you know will do i'll

00:34:04   still feel that way I guess maybe I'm

00:34:05   not understanding your question no

00:34:06   youyou answer to what degree do you

00:34:09   think the tools that he the that you use

00:34:12   for that we use you know you and

00:34:14   everybody all the thousands of people

00:34:16   have helped you make your movies yeah to

00:34:18   what do extent do you embrace those

00:34:20   tools it and think that they influence

00:34:23   how the final product comes oh yeah

00:34:26   now there are probably mean it's really

00:34:27   to the point where what you create is

00:34:30   inseparable from the tools that you use

00:34:33   to create at least as a film yeah at

00:34:35   least from my perspective as a director

00:34:37   but my experience of a film is very

00:34:39   different than you know for me for me

00:34:42   looper is is either different to take an

00:34:45   example of the most recent movie for me

00:34:47   you know when I look at looper it's so

00:34:49   much of it it's not my experience of it

00:34:52   has a very manageable so much to do with

00:34:54   my memory of making it and the

00:34:56   experience I had with the people around

00:34:57   it and that means the camera that we use

00:35:00   that means the type of equipment we use

00:35:02   the rigs that we use the lights that we

00:35:04   just that that all that is baked into

00:35:06   that film for me but thats that you know

00:35:09   not for the audience obviously so

00:35:11   sometimes maybe sometimes even a on an

00:35:14   unconscious level

00:35:16   yeah maybe yeah I decided about that

00:35:18   stuff about how the audience response to

00:35:20   technological choices that they never

00:35:22   ever going to be thinking about

00:35:23   consciously you hope that they do ya

00:35:26   there there's a you know

00:35:28   yeah you'd idea i guess you hope that

00:35:30   they do all you can do is and obviously

00:35:32   that's your also choosing your tools

00:35:36   based on what feels good for you in

00:35:39   terms of how it's going to look at the

00:35:41   end product for example from me I that's

00:35:42   the reason that shoot on film is that I

00:35:44   think it looks you know it looks like a

00:35:46   movie to me it looks

00:35:48   it looks good it looks it feels the way

00:35:50   that I want you know my stuff to feel I

00:35:53   guess all you can do is make that for

00:35:55   yourself and hope that they're that

00:35:57   connection on with Delhi some people in

00:35:59   the audience same way and it gives

00:36:01   something even for argument's sake of

00:36:04   there was absolutely no visual

00:36:05   difference between digital and film i'm

00:36:07   not saying that's true but again for

00:36:09   argument's sake the fact that you are

00:36:11   shooting filming and you get a sense

00:36:14   internally that there's real you know of

00:36:16   film rolling through the camera and

00:36:18   probably makes your experience of

00:36:19   directing it different in the LA you

00:36:22   know it would impact the the final

00:36:24   outcome as well yeah yeah i would guess

00:36:26   so

00:36:26   it also looks a lot better where I I

00:36:29   don't think I'm ever in co will notice

00:36:31   that the way what i did was i was in

00:36:33   school

00:36:33   yeah that I have access to shoot on

00:36:35   filter I mean maybe I don't know who

00:36:36   have access to it it's not what do i do

00:36:39   you say that because like a highway all

00:36:43   of the part of the pros and cons of

00:36:44   using resources go into the production

00:36:48   yeah I don't prioritize that one hot

00:36:50   very highly

00:36:51   I don't know what I would choose

00:36:52   something else the thing that's a

00:36:56   personal choice and it's also where

00:36:58   you're coming from now I mean you're

00:37:00   coming up where you're shooting digital

00:37:03   all the way up that

00:37:04   yeah that that's true and not that were

00:37:07   far separated and age or anything but i

00:37:09   probably my experience my early

00:37:12   formative experiences of cinema ar-ar-ar

00:37:15   maybe a little bit different from from

00:37:17   yours and that you like I'm or I'll

00:37:19   always kind of personally jealous of

00:37:21   people who can feel the quality of

00:37:24   celluloid over because i can't really

00:37:27   yeah you can't do and you see a film

00:37:29   shot digitally really and I'm pretty I'm

00:37:32   generally kind of astute about media

00:37:34   stuff planned but that's something that

00:37:36   I was pretty pretty blind too

00:37:38   that's interesting huh maybe I don't

00:37:40   know maybe maybe you could teach music

00:37:41   now I got nothing that i now need to me

00:37:45   it's night and day to me I see a movie

00:37:47   shot digital and it can be very well

00:37:48   shot and can you know it's it did but I

00:37:51   you know I don't know it's very it's

00:37:53   very rare very rare except for went well

00:37:56   I don't know

00:37:56   there although a lot of times stuff the

00:38:00   challenge film these days is so baked

00:38:02   and treated in the DIA and so messed

00:38:05   with it's hard to you know Andy can be

00:38:08   hard to decipher sometimes but I don't

00:38:10   know anyway I'm the point is not i guess

00:38:14   to tip to put down another medium the

00:38:16   point is just to say that i like the way

00:38:18   the film looks I think it's the best

00:38:19   looking thing out there did you want

00:38:21   maybe it is something that is

00:38:22   specifically tuned into I don't know but

00:38:24   I'm not to me i did it makes a

00:38:27   difference

00:38:28   did you or did you see that documentary

00:38:30   and I haven't seen ya haven't seen it

00:38:32   yeah yeah I don't know I I it's tough

00:38:36   it's i guess and to some degree i guess

00:38:38   i don't know you could you can make the

00:38:40   argument that it's like the audiophile

00:38:42   talking about mp3's vs AIFS and

00:38:45   listening to him and what the difference

00:38:46   is a night that's it's like we were

00:38:48   talking we be a prominent kick around

00:38:51   maybe if we had more time whenever we

00:38:53   talk about the master too but that's the

00:38:54   explanation that I've seen PT Anderson

00:38:56   give was that if I'm gonna shoot film

00:38:58   and that's why he shot 65 millimeter was

00:39:00   then i might as well go all the way and

00:39:03   I really should film shoot the biggest

00:39:06   film i can get my hands on right even if

00:39:08   the camera is the size of a you know

00:39:10   refrigerator

00:39:11   yeah film looks like a movie to me

00:39:12   digital looks like video to me it just

00:39:14   unite and I don't know I know that

00:39:16   that's anyone else's experience but now

00:39:17   it's mine and so I'm gonna make those

00:39:19   choices for my own films and them and

00:39:21   kind of Labor discussion

00:39:23   yeah it's kind of boring or e-mail or a

00:39:26   right up here we just took a panorama

00:39:30   picture of you guys actually digitally

00:39:33   haven't used that feature who wants oh I

00:39:36   was the best of that it is really

00:39:38   fantastic that

00:39:43   yeah okay awesome so if we were

00:39:46   triangulated right now if we each take a

00:39:48   panorama we can pretty much get 360 yeah

00:39:51   so I going back to the tools you use

00:39:56   this is a tech podcast I mean generally

00:39:58   speaking they taught you know you talk

00:40:00   about other stuff movies but the people

00:40:06   largely the people who listen to it are

00:40:07   probably fascinated by the tools you

00:40:09   know what tools of whatever trade ya so

00:40:13   but there's a lot of going back inside

00:40:15   the movie there are a lot of there's a

00:40:18   lot of tech in inside the movie you know

00:40:20   the ending of the movie did you did you

00:40:24   spend a lot of how much thought

00:40:27   proportionately speaking did you put

00:40:28   into like imagining all these that this

00:40:33   technology

00:40:34   I know like four for AI or minority

00:40:36   report offers Spielberg is something

00:40:38   else greatest pianist and that you know

00:40:40   came up with every gadget did you do a

00:40:42   lot of brainstorming reason no no thats

00:40:44   the head on that now III is interesting

00:40:47   because i didn't write the movie from

00:40:49   like a world building perspective I

00:40:51   guess I was just I was mostly just doing

00:40:54   everything I could to make the story

00:40:55   work and so I wasn't thinking really of

00:40:59   how the world was going to look and so

00:41:01   so when it came time to actually design

00:41:04   the world it was less about digging into

00:41:07   what future tech will actually seemed

00:41:10   like it was more about you taking that

00:41:13   picture got in that it was more about is

00:41:17   more just evaluate what will work for

00:41:19   the story and and honestly taking a very

00:41:24   simplistic approach to the tech and the

00:41:26   film also seemed right because I figured

00:41:28   there was so much else we are asking the

00:41:30   audience to absorb and spend their

00:41:32   brainpower figuring out with the time

00:41:34   travel and the looper stuff in the TK

00:41:36   stuff

00:41:37   the last thing we needed was a ton of

00:41:40   tech that the audience had to kind of

00:41:42   like when sad and say oh what is that

00:41:44   the crazy thing doing how does that work

00:41:46   even if that's fun for me it just wasn't

00:41:49   what the movie was about so you know we

00:41:51   got cell phones that kind of fold out

00:41:53   and are cool that we have we got

00:41:54   hoverbikes it can look like triumph

00:41:56   motorcycles and there's not a ton of you

00:41:59   know hopefully there's nothing you can't

00:42:02   glance at and figure out what it is is a

00:42:04   invisible keyboard

00:42:05   yeah that actually like the controller

00:42:07   because the library the idea that

00:42:09   there's a that you're actually

00:42:10   manipulating something in 3d space right

00:42:12   that that that i did--like i like time

00:42:15   like that you know in children of men

00:42:18   that game that the kid yeah that's right

00:42:19   in there with the yeah and I also

00:42:21   thought it stuck out to me that unlike

00:42:23   minority report which everybody looks

00:42:25   super cool but everybody points out

00:42:26   would be physically exhausting because

00:42:28   your arms name of your tongue have your

00:42:31   time right out of your tom cruise before

00:42:33   anybody else your shoulders would fall

00:42:34   off and we're present in looper the the

00:42:37   touch technology looks like something

00:42:40   you could sit there and like I do like

00:42:41   work at ten hours a day and an

00:42:43   ergonomically safe i like the one that

00:42:45   old old Joe's almost called him old

00:42:48   Bruce that's not play snap Elena was

00:42:51   good that old Joe's wife uses in the

00:42:53   display that she kind of vacation / your

00:42:56   fingers everybody's turning off yeah he

00:42:58   wasn't even glass it was now it's just

00:43:00   putting their hand from a storytelling

00:43:01   perspective one of the things that I

00:43:03   thought was interesting is that a lot of

00:43:04   time travel movies it's now like today

00:43:10   when the movies being made vs where

00:43:11   you're going so back to the future

00:43:13   it was nineteen eighty-five in 1955

00:43:16   right i'm in looper there is no now the

00:43:21   only two years

00:43:22   really there's there's a little montage

00:43:23   where you go through them but you're

00:43:24   talking 24 tease in the 27th ease and

00:43:27   and 24 teams are effectively now like

00:43:29   and you get into that mindset where now

00:43:32   is 2044 right and the tech is a lot more

00:43:36   grounded and and you don't spend we

00:43:38   don't spend a lot of time in the 27th

00:43:40   ease but when we do that's where there's

00:43:42   the way more whiz-bang star ever read ya

00:43:46   in Shanghai to which is it like its

00:43:48   search engine so ya futuristic city and

00:43:51   begin with

00:43:51   yeah i mean it it i mean it made sense

00:43:54   to me to have are you know to have our

00:43:58   present-day be near future just because

00:44:00   I figured it was either that or we

00:44:01   create an alternate present day and

00:44:03   that's a little more complicated

00:44:05   to me it was just easier to wrap your

00:44:06   head around the notion that ok since 30

00:44:08   years from now so some things are

00:44:10   different

00:44:11   the big thing being that time travel is

00:44:13   used in this way with these guys which

00:44:15   it would then pain in the ass if we had

00:44:18   done the present day and had to have it

00:44:20   be something that was like underground

00:44:21   but actually around today like that just

00:44:23   where required a lot of machinations

00:44:25   that would have taken up screen times

00:44:27   now ya made sense

00:44:30   um so you've you've you've talked a lot

00:44:36   of other interviews about the UH the

00:44:38   theory of that the the way that time

00:44:40   travel operates and and i found it

00:44:43   interesting i was listening I want when

00:44:46   I saw the movie again I don't know we

00:44:48   know when I listen to your commentary

00:44:50   again you said something about how when

00:44:52   you're writing that scene between young

00:44:54   and old Joe in the diner how Bruce is so

00:44:56   dismissive of that whole line of

00:44:58   questioning and see Lawrence and is it

00:45:01   something you said you know where it is

00:45:06   used against me

00:45:07   no not at all used against you you said

00:45:09   Bruce is more interested in what's

00:45:11   happening inside his head than

00:45:12   explaining the time-travel stuff

00:45:14   yeah I feel a lot like Bruce in that it

00:45:18   right now in that I you know I've cut I

00:45:21   can't wrap my tiny brain around a lot of

00:45:22   the time travel stuff i am confused when

00:45:24   when we see the tool alternate realities

00:45:27   unfolding in you know yeah um some way

00:45:29   more interested in what's happening

00:45:30   inside Bruce's head and I'm Way more

00:45:32   interested in what's happening in your

00:45:34   head like this

00:45:35   we've been talking about it and process

00:45:37   of making making the movie um someone of

00:45:40   that I feel like I'm there's two types

00:45:42   of people watching these kind of movies

00:45:43   and there's people that are so smart

00:45:46   that they get caught up in all those

00:45:47   details in the mission them the

00:45:49   machinery of the time travel and I'm one

00:45:51   of the lucky people that's not smart to

00:45:52   get caught up in it so I just let it all

00:45:54   fall away and i enjoy the stories are my

00:45:56   people

00:45:57   you built the world you're the architect

00:46:00   so you get your kind of both

00:46:02   yeah yeah but at the same time that's I

00:46:06   don't know they did a dead the

00:46:08   you know the mechanics of time travel or

00:46:12   something that they're kind of fun after

00:46:13   the fact but I'd I don't know man i'm

00:46:17   frankly and I guess if it you know that

00:46:20   to me that's almost like added it's

00:46:24   almost like bonus content if i go see a

00:46:26   time travel movie i'm either going to

00:46:28   enjoy it or not enjoy it based on

00:46:30   whether it was a good story and whether

00:46:32   i was into it and whether it took me

00:46:34   someplace that I cared about whether it

00:46:37   was funny weather was entertaining

00:46:38   basically and then and completely

00:46:41   secondary level afterwards all then

00:46:43   think about and the time travel well

00:46:45   this made sense that didn't make sense

00:46:46   and i'll try and like pick it apart like

00:46:48   that and so I guess that's the level on

00:46:51   which it operates from me and they get

00:46:53   the time travel

00:46:55   what if it's ever a priority between

00:46:57   keeping the momentum of the story up and

00:47:00   stopping for 20 seconds to explain

00:47:03   something so that somebody won't wonder

00:47:05   about in the car ride home i'm going to

00:47:07   keep the momentum of the story up to me

00:47:08   that's just where my where my priorities

00:47:11   lies it as it doesn't necessarily tell

00:47:13   her you know

00:47:14   yeah it probably create some like little

00:47:16   bit of tension that propels the move you

00:47:18   forward anyway there's enough you know

00:47:20   just yeah like the right amount of

00:47:21   mystery not too much I hope so and it

00:47:24   you know yeah you always hope so and you

00:47:26   always odd in the other answers you just

00:47:28   you try your best you know you just try

00:47:30   your best and yeah I always get right

00:47:32   I'm sure there's stuff that I probably

00:47:33   should have explained more deeply and

00:47:35   the thing and or stuff that I've

00:47:37   explained too much but all you can do is

00:47:38   kind of trust your instincts and ride

00:47:42   that line between keeping things moving

00:47:44   and keeping things explained it so good

00:47:47   i think it's almost more important to

00:47:49   make it feel like it makes sense then

00:47:52   that it

00:47:53   let's say it's like it makes absolutely

00:47:55   that's all that's important and that was

00:47:57   you know watching time travel movies

00:47:59   preparing to write this that was a

00:48:01   really liberating thing that I realized

00:48:03   is your it really is like doing a

00:48:06   the magician doing a trick you know

00:48:08   you're not creating something that and

00:48:10   the other thing is I mean that you have

00:48:11   time travel is a time travels is putting

00:48:15   in the genre of science fiction

00:48:17   the truth is time travel in this works

00:48:21   some people to hear this but time travel

00:48:22   is not a science for the scientists time

00:48:25   travel is a fantasy element time travel

00:48:27   is like Harry Potter stuff its magic and

00:48:30   unicorns and dragons that you have to

00:48:31   treat it storytelling was on that level

00:48:34   where you create a little box that it

00:48:36   exists in and make sense and inside that

00:48:38   little box here and never going to be

00:48:40   able to explain it or ground it to an

00:48:43   extent to where somebody can actually

00:48:44   analyze it with real-world logic and and

00:48:47   say yes that was airtight that makes

00:48:49   sense

00:48:50   meta koriians in the corner there you go

00:48:53   um what I mean you've answered this

00:48:57   question hundred thousand times to isn't

00:48:59   terms of all the long list of time

00:49:01   travel movies that you appreciate or

00:49:04   research you know watched his research

00:49:05   for writing this

00:49:06   yeah um when somebody says to you back

00:49:10   to the future as well not you know blah

00:49:12   blah blah Terminator blob and future but

00:49:15   does that desire to ignite a positive

00:49:18   response in you like the yeah this is

00:49:20   good that all these reference points

00:49:21   came out in the movie or is it is it

00:49:23   like what me and I made by only screw

00:49:27   you old man idea as tremendously good

00:49:29   because they're you know because those

00:49:32   are great pieces of people are seeing

00:49:35   that in there you know that's that's a

00:49:37   huge tremendous compliment you know I

00:49:39   supposed to blah blah insert bad time

00:49:42   travel movie name here blondes yeah

00:49:45   that's that would be bad but you know

00:49:47   and I didn't you know did I think that

00:49:49   it would because of the story was not

00:49:52   about time travel because the story was

00:49:54   about the characters dealing with this

00:49:56   situation I absolutely was not above

00:49:59   using an audience's knowledge of the

00:50:02   genre in order to shortcut over as much

00:50:04   as I possibly could and and so and so

00:50:09   far from it in terms of you know saying

00:50:12   i built my own thing I didn't I stood on

00:50:14   the night i took anything i could and

00:50:16   not only in terms of using them as

00:50:18   storytelling things

00:50:19   using them as things I knew the audience

00:50:22   would be familiar with so that I could

00:50:24   you know so that i could shortcut over

00:50:28   not having to explain it like like the

00:50:30   fingers disappearing you know that's

00:50:32   exactly what i was going to jump to in

00:50:33   the way that you can pass a message to

00:50:35   your future self which is by writing

00:50:37   it's scaring them you know taking an ax

00:50:39   blade and yeah writing a message into

00:50:42   your skin so that the scar shows up on

00:50:43   their future self

00:50:45   yes the young Joe and I love that you

00:50:47   see young Joe with a bloody bandage yeah

00:50:48   i got a text message I don't want to add

00:50:51   texted there's a gag there to that I i

00:50:54   know i said i warned everybody about

00:50:55   spoilers but it's too risky angry so

00:50:57   deep into it it's too good of a guy who

00:50:59   never said that but yeah that you know

00:51:02   that's just a really gruesome version of

00:51:04   The Back to the Future Polaroid you know

00:51:06   and i think that in that's it that's a

00:51:08   conceptual thing that we're all just

00:51:10   culturally aware of because we grew up

00:51:12   watching that movie and that's

00:51:13   absolutely the same way that old Joe

00:51:16   trying to change things by finding you

00:51:19   know this problem and eliminating it

00:51:21   instinctively we know that from watching

00:51:22   terminator movies growing and that's I

00:51:24   wanted to absolutely no use that and I

00:51:27   wonder this is like this this is

00:51:29   stretching pretty far but a by putting

00:51:34   Bruce Willis in your movie is that its

00:51:36   own cultural reference point it i mean

00:51:39   actually actually it's more like I

00:51:41   watched your movie the first time was

00:51:42   the first time I saw it and I and I see

00:51:45   Bruce and I've seen 12 monkeys and I'm

00:51:47   the end without I caught myself thinking

00:51:49   is Bruce Willis from the future

00:51:51   yeah thank you very well you know I

00:51:52   think they've been going to spend time

00:51:55   with his very last one yeah and it's

00:51:57   very possible

00:51:58   oh it is watches from the fifties don't

00:52:00   go figure

00:52:01   oh is it now Anna um yeah that which is

00:52:08   your favorite back to the future

00:52:09   yeah let's let's get right down to it

00:52:12   you get to brass tacks there's one cause

00:52:14   there's only one rational answers to

00:52:16   that question

00:52:17   god I think I know what you're going to

00:52:18   say but it's probably different answer

00:52:19   them you're kidding no I don't think I

00:52:22   think it's an easy answer

00:52:23   ok so it is there is only one out how

00:52:25   can you say anything but one are you

00:52:27   going are you a to apologist we go over

00:52:29   time

00:52:29   no not that i don't like to i think is a

00:52:31   great movie been number 11 remember one

00:52:34   thing about ya kisses his mom

00:52:37   oh my god yeah well it's also a number

00:52:40   one news mom kisses him but either way

00:52:42   yeah number one is you know it really it

00:52:46   to make a really handfasted dama knology

00:52:48   if number one is a you know if number

00:52:54   one is a like a great tune like someday

00:52:56   my prince will come

00:52:57   number two is kind of a riff on that

00:53:01   yeah exactly yeah yeah but there's

00:53:03   something about and I was just like a

00:53:06   perfect movie and it's just perfectly

00:53:08   constructed 224 me who I just got so

00:53:11   excited by the world that created the

00:53:12   the future world that it created in the

00:53:14   end that I that made me that almost

00:53:16   single-handedly made me want to make

00:53:19   movies you know yeah yeah yeah it made

00:53:21   my cinematographer steve gadlin's also

00:53:24   like my best friends too is when I first

00:53:26   met him he was still a senior in high

00:53:28   school and he had shot with a new we're

00:53:32   going to be friends because he had just

00:53:34   with the video camera and his little

00:53:35   brother and his friends had shot back to

00:53:38   the future to like it recreated just

00:53:40   like the kitchen the whole thing yeah

00:53:42   the way that those kids do with the

00:53:45   Raiders Steve had done somehow it back

00:53:46   to the future two and he loves em yeah

00:53:50   and if he still doesn't really you're

00:53:51   gonna hear is that when you're a kid you

00:53:53   recreate any of your favorite

00:53:54   yeah i actually have told the story

00:53:57   before in some interviews but I I

00:53:59   actually almost burned down my parent's

00:54:01   garage trying to recreate the DeLorean

00:54:04   fire tracks into the future and it was

00:54:08   there i was a really stupid notice

00:54:10   because I tried to do them by i figured

00:54:13   i would soak little strips of toilet

00:54:15   paper and gasoline obviously and lay

00:54:17   them out behind the car but to soak the

00:54:19   strips of paper and gasoline i poured

00:54:21   gasoline into a Styrofoam plate and soak

00:54:25   them and of course the styrofoam

00:54:26   dissolves and basically becomes napalm

00:54:28   know and so I let these things up they

00:54:30   look great but I stamped on them to put

00:54:32   them out and accidentally stepped back

00:54:34   into the napalm and that ignited and was

00:54:36   stuck to my foot and meanwhile the

00:54:38   garage which somehow is filming this

00:54:40   inside the garage

00:54:41   schwoz was feeling with black smoke and

00:54:43   it was it was a big mess that

00:54:46   yeah when when childhood love

00:54:48   moviemaking combines with our next I

00:54:50   wrote techniques and I definitely for a

00:54:53   class project I definitely blew up the

00:54:56   US embassy in Beirut like to recruit you

00:54:58   know to reenact to reenact that

00:55:00   disastrous loud yelling a truck full of

00:55:03   explosives into a model only crap you

00:55:05   were your another level I look down and

00:55:08   down so the John and I were talking

00:55:14   about this a little bit earlier I how

00:55:19   that the looper had this additional

00:55:22   element that sort of took it in turn it

00:55:25   like added on top of the what you

00:55:27   thought

00:55:27   whatever you thought the movie was going

00:55:29   to be and that was the TK element right

00:55:31   the supernatural and you include that

00:55:36   element in a very organic way it doesn't

00:55:38   seem supernatural and until it until

00:55:42   shit gets real

00:55:43   yeah yeah you know and what I kind of

00:55:45   think of is like the third level iiia I

00:55:47   don't normally think about act in movies

00:55:49   in act structure or whatever but I felt

00:55:51   two different you know plateaus share

00:55:55   like two different kicking it up a notch

00:55:57   and rare and the first one was the the

00:55:59   montage of Joe got becoming old Joe yeah

00:56:02   the second one was the first time that

00:56:05   said musician you know and and the sound

00:56:09   design that piercing scream there that

00:56:12   that supernatural element was very

00:56:14   exciting and unexpected and see like

00:56:17   what just happened

00:56:19   a

00:56:20   I love how you there's like the extreme

00:56:23   telekinetic supernatural element and

00:56:26   then like the most base stupid

00:56:28   yeah side which is that it's mostly guys

00:56:30   floating quarters above their introduced

00:56:32   like an hour earlier

00:56:34   yeah Phil minutes just there and I and

00:56:37   it's there for one reason is it is to

00:56:39   pick up chicks

00:56:40   it's like they already in the same book

00:56:41   and I think of like I played poker and

00:56:44   casino is a lot and then like there's

00:56:45   two types of poker players there's the

00:56:47   kind to learn to like it is with an

00:56:50   apples yeah they roll the chips with

00:56:51   their knuckles and I played enough that

00:56:54   i probably could have learned but i

00:56:55   always thought that was a terrible thing

00:56:56   to learn because then you sit down and

00:56:58   you realize what this guy plays poker at

00:57:00   but that's what it seemed like the order

00:57:03   thing was with the tk's was that you

00:57:05   just did not even thinking about it like

00:57:06   the big people who can do it just sit

00:57:08   there and an aide rotate a quarter to

00:57:11   three inches above their palm and

00:57:12   they're not even thinking about it but

00:57:13   yeah energy and to try to pick up chicks

00:57:16   well there's a somewhat arbitrary and I

00:57:18   think rather stupid rule of thumb in

00:57:21   screenwriting that you're not supposed

00:57:22   to ask the audience to buy one more than

00:57:25   one big thing that there's probably a

00:57:27   name for there's something but you know

00:57:29   I'm just from a screenwriting class

00:57:33   point of view it's something that's

00:57:35   probably it is something is tricky it's

00:57:37   problematic i think that you know i did

00:57:41   i'd i tried to it attempted obviously

00:57:43   and i think that you know there are

00:57:44   people that I've talked to are heard

00:57:46   from where they were it didn't work for

00:57:48   that reason we're like that's more than

00:57:49   one thing you're asking me to buy why

00:57:51   was that in there but for me it did was

00:57:53   first was really necessary just because

00:57:56   I wanted Sid to not just be a

00:57:59   theoretical threat

00:58:00   I didn't want him to just be someone who

00:58:04   could grow up to be evil because he's

00:58:05   super smart or something i wanted that

00:58:07   threat of the future to be manifest in a

00:58:11   very concrete and affecting way in the

00:58:16   present so I wanted the danger of the

00:58:19   future to be not just something

00:58:21   intellectual but something actually

00:58:22   right there threatening your life and

00:58:25   and that seemed like a way of doing that

00:58:28   but it did require you know planting

00:58:31   this other big thing in the first act of

00:58:34   a movie when we're already setting up

00:58:36   this one incredibly big thing and so my

00:58:38   pressure was to throw it away said to

00:58:40   plant it by at the beginning when your

00:58:42   heads wrapped up in the time-travel

00:58:43   stuff to just toss this little thing out

00:58:45   there and at the end of it when the

00:58:47   time-travel stuff is gone away that's

00:58:48   when we raise this thing back up that

00:58:51   was the approach i took it was very

00:58:54   effective effective i want to thank our

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01:00:31   they're running a free trial sign-up and

01:00:34   taste what all the fuss is about

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01:00:44   not gonna regret it it's it's absolutely

01:00:47   delicious coffee and you'd it's really

01:00:49   good if you're lazy like me and don't

01:00:50   want to leave the house if here's the

01:00:53   quote i got the quote from Marco Arment

01:00:54   on on coffee friend of the show and and

01:00:57   genuine coffee nerd

01:00:58   he has a great Universal answer to

01:01:00   anyone who asks him how to make great

01:01:02   coffee get a burger grinder get an

01:01:04   aeropress and subscribe to talks good

01:01:08   advice and you took a sip

01:01:14   you didn't flip it not in slurpin take

01:01:17   to hear the slurping smile delicious

01:01:24   here's here's one here's one more thing

01:01:27   that I've been wanting to talk to you

01:01:29   about since our mutual friend roan and

01:01:32   brought it up on Twitter

01:01:33   yes and that is he kind of challenge you

01:01:36   a little bit and said Ryan you're doing

01:01:38   all this generous stuff talking about

01:01:40   all these different parts of the movie

01:01:42   that in maybe in another time the

01:01:47   audience wouldn't have access to the to

01:01:50   the author's thoughts right

01:01:53   and let's make no mistake it's very

01:01:55   generous of you and but being a movie

01:02:00   maker of 2012 means you can give that to

01:02:03   your audience and um have you like have

01:02:10   you thought about metering how much

01:02:13   you're giving to the audience very much

01:02:15   you know that a lot about it okay to

01:02:19   lose him now I don't know I thought a

01:02:22   lot about I don't have a shit you know

01:02:24   an opinion I I an hour i should say i

01:02:26   don't have like a you know conclusion

01:02:29   about it something I've given a lot of

01:02:31   thought it's hard because I'm you know I

01:02:34   am very much out there on Twitter mostly

01:02:36   these days and a very president and I

01:02:39   try to be like part of the conversation

01:02:41   respond to people and that's something

01:02:42   that I do just because i enjoy doing it

01:02:45   something i was doing before people were

01:02:47   even really watching movies I just like

01:02:49   you know being part of that big

01:02:52   conversation that's going on and it's

01:02:55   hard because when people ask you

01:02:58   questions about your movie you know you

01:03:01   there are several things that happen

01:03:03   first of all you don't want to seem like

01:03:05   you're being a being kind of like an

01:03:08   aloof jerk by saying that sunday so

01:03:10   whatever she wants to do you think

01:03:12   yeah exactly but there's also something

01:03:15   that comes from a worse place than that

01:03:18   where you think if i don't answer people

01:03:20   are going to think I didn't think about

01:03:22   this and I don't have an answer and the

01:03:23   truth is I do so I want to you know I

01:03:27   want to respond so people know that I

01:03:29   you know because because I also when

01:03:32   it's when it's phrased in terms of it

01:03:34   being a quote-unquote plot hole or I you

01:03:37   know even even though we got some really

01:03:40   we would King got some really great you

01:03:43   know reviews where the week I can't

01:03:45   complain at all in terms of the critical

01:03:46   response you would occasionally read the

01:03:48   review where would you know kind of

01:03:51   dismiss the logic as you know you think

01:03:54   too closely about this it doesn't make

01:03:55   sense but the building

01:03:57   and the thing is I thought very closely

01:03:59   about it for two years of my life and it

01:04:01   all makes sense and it's hard to not do

01:04:04   it when somebody engages you in a forum

01:04:07   where you can talk where you can reply

01:04:09   to it it would require just a Herculean

01:04:12   effort not to i think but it's something

01:04:16   that I am I don't know it does for the

01:04:20   next 1i guess I'mI'm i don't know i can

01:04:23   really see the merit and not responding

01:04:25   i can really see the meriden doing

01:04:27   whatever I would need to do to to kind

01:04:30   of disengage a little bit I guess what

01:04:33   do I know what do you think I think of

01:04:34   it isn't like an editorial choice kind

01:04:37   of if you think about the whole world of

01:04:39   your movie as as one artifact in to

01:04:42   which you're contributing right now

01:04:44   ya think if you choose not to answer the

01:04:48   questions then you're editing your

01:04:50   editing on out of debt of that artifact

01:04:52   that artifact separate from looper them

01:04:54   the movie that people has a starting to

01:04:57   finish and but you can't ignore the

01:05:00   right now the artifact takes on a

01:05:03   different form being you know having

01:05:05   exposure to conversation the artifact

01:05:09   being a massive conversation that yeah

01:05:12   the national conversation or the

01:05:13   artifact being every release of of this

01:05:17   the original Star Wars trilogy that ever

01:05:18   existed in every piece of packaging and

01:05:20   every toy beeping a part of the movie

01:05:22   right air and I'll kinda like thinking

01:05:24   about it that way to yeah it is it Anna

01:05:27   is it and is it is there value in

01:05:33   letting it exists on its own label

01:05:36   sticker itself and even if that means

01:05:38   short-term they're going to be people

01:05:40   who you know see it once don't give it

01:05:43   much thought and say this damn makes

01:05:45   sense because of this or that but maybe

01:05:46   they see it on DVD on gian anh brain

01:05:49   chip 50-foot 10 years from now and say

01:05:52   oh actually this and this yes that's

01:05:54   interesting you have been having the

01:05:55   patience to let it take root and let it

01:05:58   do its own thing rather than trying to

01:06:01   immediately patch it yourself is is

01:06:04   there are married in an absolutely i

01:06:07   think there is i mean i am speaking as

01:06:09   somebody who racked it reacts

01:06:10   defensively constantly throwing you know

01:06:12   it's all things I see merit in in not

01:06:16   making decisions based on defensive is

01:06:18   and yeah yeah yeah i don't know i'm sure

01:06:20   i honestly I'm still figuring I think it

01:06:22   at Camp isn't any doubt the time travel

01:06:25   movie invite that sort of feedback to a

01:06:28   much greater Lenny movie you're going to

01:06:29   invite criticism of characters decisions

01:06:32   shell and that in the end if the movie

01:06:34   and would in a way that you didn't want

01:06:36   going to get complaints no day at a time

01:06:38   travel movie invites like this whole

01:06:39   second level of I don't know

01:06:42   fantasy metaphysics yeah yeah yeah its

01:06:46   chair

01:06:46   yeah you're you're you're you're

01:06:48   operating in that tricky gray area of

01:06:51   where science meets fiction and and

01:06:53   you're inviting all sorts of yeah

01:06:54   there's a gotta be there is a small

01:06:57   number of people who have very strong

01:06:58   opinions about what would happen if you

01:07:01   traveled back in time and get yourself

01:07:02   and regardless of those assholes i think

01:07:05   permanently generous of you to have been

01:07:09   contributing to the conversation

01:07:10   including coming and being with us today

01:07:14   mmm yeah thank you very much I mean this

01:07:17   is a real thrill is that they're done

01:07:21   the following podcast is brought to you

01:07:24   by field notes brand notebooks in

01:07:26   connection with our limited edition

01:07:28   made-in-the-usa pocket memo books for

01:07:31   fall the Traveling Salesman edition for

01:07:33   more information please visit field

01:07:35   notes brand.com

01:07:37   my philosophy is that because I've been

01:07:43   so tied in with traveling sales for so

01:07:45   many years

01:07:46   my dad and I might both my sons are

01:07:49   traveling salesman i really think that

01:07:52   the travelling salesman is probably the

01:07:54   inspiration for our country the way it

01:07:57   is now because they're industrious

01:07:59   people they they work very hard they

01:08:02   don't take no for an answer and to me

01:08:05   that's that's what we are today in this

01:08:07   country and the traveling steals the

01:08:09   salesman is still there there in

01:08:11   television or on radio there on the

01:08:13   internet and they're still there are

01:08:15   traveling their ways they aren't

01:08:17   traveling door-to-door much but I guess

01:08:19   you're still there and it's been it's

01:08:22   been a real trip to travel along with

01:08:23   them these many years that's Ron solberg

01:08:26   author of The Wiz bangs of oohs and aahs

01:08:28   America salesman their lower lives and

01:08:31   laughs which is an incredibly thorough

01:08:32   guide and fascinating history of

01:08:34   traveling sales in this country we got

01:08:36   the chance to sit down with Ron recently

01:08:38   for an interview to talk to him about

01:08:39   the profession and some of the stories

01:08:41   behind those who criss cross the nation

01:08:43   before us so Ron thanks so much for

01:08:48   joining us you you actually have a

01:08:49   background in traveling sales yourself

01:08:52   he said well I really got started

01:08:53   working my for my father in southern

01:08:55   Minnesota he was my boss and when i was

01:08:58   attending college and make a little

01:08:59   money to go to college and so he hired

01:09:02   me as one of his traveling salesman and

01:09:05   I went door-to-door both in communities

01:09:07   and in farms and was selling brushes and

01:09:11   what waxes and insecticides during the

01:09:14   summer months and actually was making

01:09:16   pretty good money a hundred-dollar day

01:09:17   was considered to be pretty good and I

01:09:20   got about fifty percent of that so I was

01:09:22   making maybe fifty to sixty dollars a

01:09:24   day on those hundred dollar days so

01:09:27   you're currently a teacher and i think

01:09:28   i'd read in your book that your father

01:09:30   was also a teacher as well wasn't he

01:09:33   he was he was a stranger in Minnesota

01:09:35   and this would be in the 1930s and he

01:09:39   actually started selling these canning

01:09:43   products for you can-can pickles and

01:09:45   things and he was selling that door to

01:09:47   door but he went into four brushes

01:09:49   and he realized he was making more money

01:09:51   selling for brushes in the summer than

01:09:52   he was teaching in the other nine months

01:09:55   of the year so he made the logical move

01:09:57   to switch back to to fuller brushes and

01:10:01   he was a he was a boss get about 15 guys

01:10:03   working for him in southern Minnesota

01:10:06   and I was one of those guys during the

01:10:08   summers at least he was he was terrific

01:10:11   I'd get down and I couldn't make a sale

01:10:14   and for the life of me and I come back

01:10:16   to them and say dad I I just I really I

01:10:18   can't do it the doors are being slammed

01:10:20   in my face is well let me help you any

01:10:22   he come back with me and walk

01:10:23   door-to-door and he was super he he had

01:10:26   away and it's hard to even explain it

01:10:28   but he taught me to be a good salesman

01:10:31   and the trick really was a volume is the

01:10:35   number of stops to make

01:10:37   if you make certain number of stops for

01:10:39   instance in a community you're going to

01:10:41   be going to make the hundred-dollar day

01:10:42   if you panic in farmers are bigger

01:10:45   buyers at least they were at that time

01:10:46   because they didn't get to the

01:10:47   department stores in other places and so

01:10:50   you didn't have to make as many stops at

01:10:52   farmers but if you made those stops

01:10:55   that's a three to four stops in the

01:10:57   country in an hour you probably would

01:10:59   make make a pretty good day for yourself

01:11:02   do you know approximately how many years

01:11:05   he sold for I don't know he must have

01:11:07   been selling for brushes and and the

01:11:09   field manager for maybe 30 years 20 to

01:11:11   30 years we finally retire down to

01:11:13   Arizona he couldn't get out of the sales

01:11:15   business so he he went to selling maps

01:11:18   to schools so in the end in the sense he

01:11:20   can was returning to his roots because

01:11:22   he he was going back to the school but

01:11:24   as a salesman i went along with them to

01:11:26   kind of see how he did it and you know

01:11:28   he was using super salesman just was

01:11:31   getting into the the history of it what

01:11:34   are the origins of the Traveling

01:11:36   Salesman the earliest sales people in

01:11:39   Europe they call them monitor banks and

01:11:43   Monta bank actually translates into

01:11:46   somebody who would stand on it on a

01:11:48   platform and promote a product kinda

01:11:51   like you see in a carnival barker or

01:11:53   something to that effect and so it was

01:11:55   stationary wasn't a traveling salesman

01:11:58   although they would travel as

01:11:59   group from place to place kinda like

01:12:01   early patent medicine people would they

01:12:04   have their patent medicine shows and

01:12:06   bring their shows around just in America

01:12:08   but they were doing that in Europe and

01:12:10   developed differently in the states in

01:12:13   because in Europe the enterprise

01:12:15   themselves were selling the they had

01:12:17   rights to sell their products in

01:12:20   particular areas in in this country the

01:12:23   salesman went out and sold away from the

01:12:26   enterprise they might sell clocks or 10

01:12:28   where but they could make it roam the

01:12:31   country they didn't have they didn't

01:12:33   have any particular territory that they

01:12:35   were locked into and so that was kind of

01:12:38   a difference the travelling salesman in

01:12:40   America really traveling and of course

01:12:42   you had a different situation or two

01:12:44   with with being a wide-open country and

01:12:46   and people were located in different

01:12:49   areas in fact one author is called it

01:12:51   the the introduction of the everywhere

01:12:53   community because in a sense the

01:12:56   travelling salesman was was bringing the

01:12:59   the goods and services from the city's

01:13:01   out east boston and other is to to the

01:13:05   farms and settlements that were farther

01:13:08   west they were they were several things

01:13:10   they weren't just salespeople they were

01:13:12   also newspapers in fact that was an

01:13:14   important role that these traveling

01:13:16   salesman had an early times they were

01:13:18   carrying news with them they would

01:13:20   Johnny Appleseed for instance was very

01:13:22   much involved in warning settlers as to

01:13:25   maybe some some Indians or sort of on

01:13:28   the warpath agency and they would tell

01:13:31   them you know you've got some problems

01:13:32   coming down the road here so this is

01:13:34   really travelling salesmen were more

01:13:36   carriers of news and advice so they had

01:13:39   multiple multiple functions and with

01:13:41   those early salesman what what were they

01:13:44   selling exactly or rather what was the

01:13:47   most like prevalent thing or things that

01:13:49   they were selling book salesman were

01:13:52   probably the most common salesman and

01:13:56   sales women in in the 19th century one

01:13:59   of the finest book salesman of all time

01:14:02   was parson whims eat his primary product

01:14:06   will buy it was Bibles but actually he

01:14:09   wrote his own things

01:14:10   some say he's kind of equivalent to

01:14:13   current reports for National Enquirer

01:14:15   and some of the others because he would

01:14:16   tend to fictionalize the the people of

01:14:18   his day like George Washington for

01:14:20   instance he wrote a story about George

01:14:22   Washington cutting down the cherry tree

01:14:23   and and telling his dad it was you can

01:14:26   read it and is that complimented him for

01:14:29   for being honest and that's fiction it

01:14:31   didn't really happen but actually what

01:14:33   did happen is probably Williams is on

01:14:35   sun did something very much like that

01:14:38   but I don't think he admitted to stay at

01:14:40   that he had done it but he wrote a lot

01:14:42   of books and they were very popular

01:14:44   people really enjoy them and what's kind

01:14:47   of interesting about the web's book the

01:14:50   the book about George Washington about

01:14:52   being honest it was one of Abraham

01:14:55   Lincoln's favorite favorite books i

01:14:57   believe that he had like the book so

01:15:00   much that of course his campaign theme

01:15:03   was on a state and he probably got it

01:15:06   from person rims and the story about

01:15:08   George Washington so these things get

01:15:10   kind of passed on and in strange ways

01:15:12   but book sales can be involved in

01:15:14   another way uh it's called subscription

01:15:17   subscription sales they would go

01:15:19   door-to-door with a portion of a book

01:15:21   with some illustrations and text and

01:15:24   there were a lot of blank pages and they

01:15:25   would go door-to-door and say we're

01:15:27   selling this book are you interested and

01:15:30   they said yeah I'd like to buy that book

01:15:32   and so they put their write their name

01:15:34   in the back of the book and they go to

01:15:36   the neighbor and say you know your

01:15:38   neighbor down there said that they'd

01:15:39   like to have this book maybe you would

01:15:41   too and so the neighbors oh my gosh it's

01:15:43   endorsed by my neighbor slops I'll sign

01:15:45   for it and of course they didn't have to

01:15:47   publish a book at a time because they

01:15:49   knew just how many books are going to

01:15:51   sell Mark Twain got involved in that

01:15:53   that kind of process his early books

01:15:56   were sold by subscription publishing one

01:15:58   of the most successful subscription

01:16:00   published a salesperson was a woman and

01:16:04   she was criticized for for doing this

01:16:07   women shouldn't be doing that sort of

01:16:08   thing they should be going out in public

01:16:10   and and knocking on doors and and and

01:16:13   she got so mad about it that she wrote a

01:16:15   book about that defending her position

01:16:17   that that she should be able to do that

01:16:19   just like anybody else just because

01:16:21   she's a woman shouldn't restrict

01:16:23   come from that profession but it's very

01:16:25   very important way of selling books and

01:16:28   in the 19th century there's that that

01:16:30   sort of stereotype they're not to answer

01:16:33   your door because they're gonna give you

01:16:34   this hard sell and they're going to try

01:16:36   and make you buy something but in those

01:16:37   early days when these people were so

01:16:39   kind of like rural and way out and in

01:16:42   these distant areas i was it something

01:16:45   like more positive because the strangers

01:16:47   coming to your door and he's going to

01:16:48   talk to you and he's also gonna bring

01:16:50   interesting things from the outside

01:16:51   world

01:16:52   yeah it was for many different reasons

01:16:55   one of the kind of traveling salesman is

01:16:59   called the Arkansas traveler and the

01:17:02   Arkansas traveler actually person was

01:17:05   probably in arkansas traveler not just

01:17:07   because he sold books in Arkansas but

01:17:09   the characteristic of the Arkansas

01:17:11   traveler was that he would speak with

01:17:13   people who are really out in the boonies

01:17:16   and people who really don't talk to

01:17:18   anybody they were there to get away from

01:17:20   life i guess we get away from from other

01:17:23   people and so he had to ingratiate

01:17:25   himself with these people to sell these

01:17:27   items and so what he did is he brought

01:17:30   his violin and instruments with him and

01:17:32   he would invite the these people to join

01:17:36   him in music and of course that really

01:17:39   really attracted them and that was

01:17:42   typical the Arkansas traveler also a

01:17:44   traveling salesman or collectors

01:17:46   collectors of music you have a couple of

01:17:49   traveling salesman who were selling

01:17:51   nursery items they were not out there to

01:17:55   sell the items as much as they were

01:17:56   collecting the music of of america and a

01:18:00   couple of museums ones in Missouri and

01:18:03   the other windows down in North Carolina

01:18:05   that has a collection of massive amounts

01:18:08   of music of the time this should be

01:18:10   nineteenth-century america and of course

01:18:12   in the case of the music can reverse the

01:18:15   process

01:18:16   whens was there to contribute is music

01:18:18   but these traveling sales people were

01:18:21   there to collect the music of the people

01:18:24   other people did other things their

01:18:27   storytelling was big and they the people

01:18:29   knew that when the salesman came along

01:18:32   here a lot of stories to tell

01:18:33   you were jokes i can see why people were

01:18:36   attractive they knew that this is sort

01:18:39   of an entertainer who was coming around

01:18:40   and in the process they buy some things

01:18:43   from the entertainer the travelling

01:18:45   salesman would come in a lot of

01:18:46   different colors and brands and purposes

01:18:49   fact and one the travelling salesman was

01:18:51   collecting the music is Boston you know

01:18:53   you're not doing much selling frankly

01:18:55   get your trading your your goods in this

01:18:57   case nursery items for music you're not

01:19:00   you're not really bring in much revenue

01:19:02   but that wasn't is his thing in your

01:19:05   book you've dedicated a whole section to

01:19:08   Johnny Appleseed and you said you

01:19:09   consider him a legendary traveling

01:19:12   salesman

01:19:13   that's not something you usually think

01:19:14   of when you think of these this iconic

01:19:16   folk hero

01:19:18   why do you consider him a traveling

01:19:20   salesman for several reasons Johnny

01:19:22   Appleseed covered a lot of territory he

01:19:25   started out in the east coast and in

01:19:27   went all the way up to Indiana and he

01:19:31   was spreading the word about very very

01:19:33   important product with the apple today

01:19:36   it's pretty common but at the time

01:19:37   people didn't have access to sweeteners

01:19:40   and certainly alcoholic beverages an

01:19:43   apple compatible Jack and it's also a

01:19:46   preservative and and perhaps the most

01:19:49   important element of the Apple was that

01:19:51   it intended to serve as boundary the

01:19:53   trees served as boundaries to the

01:19:55   property because these people were

01:19:57   settlers end and they were just claiming

01:19:59   their piece of land and they could claim

01:20:01   land bye-bye ringing their territory

01:20:05   with these apple trees so Johnny

01:20:06   Appleseed is really helping them settled

01:20:08   as well but he's also a missionary he

01:20:11   was so he was passing on information

01:20:15   about the Swedenborg and religion which

01:20:17   is kind of in a really equal to his

01:20:20   isn't interested in in the people that

01:20:22   he was talking to and the the college

01:20:25   there in urbana is actually there

01:20:28   because of Johnny Appleseed he he was

01:20:30   able to persuade a friend of his to

01:20:32   donate property to to the college that

01:20:35   they could put that the educational kind

01:20:37   of facility up and build it is a very

01:20:40   interesting person i think that the the

01:20:43   real story about Johnny Appleseed is far

01:20:45   more interesting

01:20:47   and really unusual than the legends that

01:20:50   have grown up around and disney and

01:20:52   others have tended to fictionalize much

01:20:55   what he was but he was he was truly an

01:20:58   inspiration there are certain sales

01:21:01   techniques or things that we now

01:21:03   consider like sales staples that you

01:21:06   write about that you were born from the

01:21:08   heyday of traveling sales like the

01:21:10   warranty in the money back guarantee

01:21:13   well in terms of the warranty or the

01:21:16   money back guarantee

01:21:18   marshall field's was an early innovator

01:21:20   and of course it was very very popular

01:21:22   and that was the cornerstone of his

01:21:25   early business here in Chicago the the

01:21:28   title of my book has words was banging

01:21:30   in it and of course that was a word that

01:21:32   he called his his people with bangs his

01:21:35   traveling salesman of the other thing is

01:21:38   giving away samples and of course a lot

01:21:40   of started to you as door openers and i

01:21:42   use samples when I was selling for

01:21:44   brushes I'd pastry brushes and vegetable

01:21:46   brushes and and the bottles of perfume

01:21:48   and I say if you talk with me for just a

01:21:51   moment of give you this pastry brush of

01:21:53   this vegetable brush and that doesn't

01:21:55   sound like a big deal today but it was a

01:21:58   big deal and frequently these these door

01:22:01   openers became products one of the most

01:22:04   amazing stories i think is with the SOS

01:22:06   pad it was a he was selling out for the

01:22:10   for the kitchen cookware control

01:22:12   beginning door open so he was talking to

01:22:13   his wife and he's what can i do to get

01:22:16   the door open to sell my goods and she

01:22:17   said well when we when we do something

01:22:20   with us a pad that maybe a steel wall

01:22:24   and maybe it has soap in it and give

01:22:26   that away and maybe the doors will open

01:22:28   one of course they did but the the kind

01:22:31   of funny part of this was that he said

01:22:33   well what what what are we going to call

01:22:35   this thing and she's a lot of imma call

01:22:37   an SOS pads into the SOS pads would save

01:22:40   our saucepans and so his wife in that

01:22:43   case was his partner in and putting that

01:22:46   together Wrigley started out selling

01:22:48   soaps and he's giving away Styx ago and

01:22:51   of course we now know that the

01:22:52   government far more popular and

01:22:54   is soaps and what's interesting about

01:22:58   that he took a step took it a step

01:22:59   further but by mailing out samples to

01:23:03   people with telephones and chris is

01:23:07   early 20th century so he used it the

01:23:09   addresses of people with telephones as

01:23:13   his the potential customers avon

01:23:16   products started out as he was selling

01:23:19   books and he needed a door opener and so

01:23:23   he worked with I think a relative who

01:23:27   was a pharmacist and he said can I put

01:23:28   something together that maybe would open

01:23:30   the door and they concocted some

01:23:32   perfumes and things and of course now we

01:23:34   know that the perfumes and cosmetics

01:23:36   became far more interesting to the

01:23:38   customer than the things he was trying

01:23:41   to sell the name is kind of interesting

01:23:43   the reason is called Avon is because he

01:23:45   lived in New York and he lived near a

01:23:47   river that look very much like

01:23:48   stratford-on-avon in England where

01:23:51   Shakespeare from so that's that's where

01:23:54   they got the word Yvonne and you know

01:23:56   other bits it's serendipitous how things

01:23:58   happen we have a traveling salesman la

01:24:01   who of course we know and now is the

01:24:04   potato chip man discovered that Chef

01:24:09   coincidence names crumb out in saratoga

01:24:12   and the story goes that Vanderbilt came

01:24:15   in the very wealthy railroad man came in

01:24:18   and ordered some potatoes and the chef

01:24:21   delivered them and vanderbilt said you

01:24:24   know this is this is not good and so

01:24:26   chrome went back and invented the potato

01:24:28   chip and called the saratoga trip

01:24:30   initially it was just a regional thing

01:24:32   he was discovered by leigh and he bought

01:24:36   a bunch of this bag it up put in the

01:24:38   trunk of his car and store the store

01:24:40   saying I've got something here that I

01:24:41   think you'll be interested in course we

01:24:43   know today that free delay is you know

01:24:46   begin in the potato chip business and it

01:24:48   what's I think so important about these

01:24:50   salespeople the very best sales people

01:24:52   take advantage of the moment they they

01:24:55   they see something and they say my gosh

01:24:57   this is this is something that will sell

01:24:59   favorite story i have is a learned about

01:25:03   it when i was working with this is

01:25:05   really great salespeople one of them had

01:25:08   been out to Colorado and he was skiing

01:25:11   with his wife they were going from one

01:25:13   peak to another to go to to another

01:25:15   slope and they were going to be taking

01:25:18   this cable car from one location to the

01:25:20   next and my they were trying

01:25:23   transversing this valley small plane

01:25:26   came down and clip the cable and the two

01:25:28   or three of the cable cars in front of

01:25:29   this this insurance it salesman crashed

01:25:33   into the valley across it they were

01:25:34   killed and but he was left dangling up

01:25:36   there above the valley with his wife and

01:25:40   in the process sold insurance policies

01:25:42   to the people who were in that car again

01:25:45   each other these people see the

01:25:47   opportunity and they they take advantage

01:25:49   of it they just did and they aren't

01:25:52   necessary taking advantage of people in

01:25:54   most cases i think they're they're

01:25:56   giving people something that they maybe

01:25:59   didn't realize that they wanted in the

01:26:00   first place

01:26:02   one of the favorite stories that i have

01:26:04   is the man who was actually from this

01:26:06   particular area went to college in April

01:26:08   the gates

01:26:09   his name is better million gates he did

01:26:12   wasn't born a better million but that's

01:26:14   what they call them later gates

01:26:16   eventually would sell barbed wire for

01:26:18   the people in dekalb in fact help

01:26:21   university northern illinois university

01:26:23   is probably there because of the barbed

01:26:25   wire business and because that's where

01:26:28   barb wire was invented in to count but

01:26:30   he started selling barbed wire and he

01:26:33   was called been a million because he

01:26:35   would he would bet on anything he

01:26:37   started his first sailing west and he

01:26:41   has so some farmers who had cattle who

01:26:44   were roaming all over the place across

01:26:47   this way had the cowboys because they

01:26:48   had to continue to corral these

01:26:50   cattlemen and know where they work and

01:26:53   you so i can keep the scandal right

01:26:55   there there's three very wild cattle but

01:26:57   I can keep them there and and they said

01:26:59   they can't do that he said I betcha I

01:27:01   can of course he's throwing the barbed

01:27:03   wire around these cattle and they were

01:27:05   ready to go anywhere eventually was so

01:27:07   successful selling barbed wire that he

01:27:09   went in the steel business Republic

01:27:11   Steel and it's probably his biggest

01:27:13   venture was a oil company that we didn't

01:27:16   know now is Texaco

01:27:18   that was his company so very wealthy

01:27:20   that he was so wealthy that he actually

01:27:23   did for Carnegie steel business across

01:27:26   Carnegie we know is probably was one of

01:27:29   the wealthiest people of all time in and

01:27:31   in America but that's how wealthy this

01:27:34   guy was the gates for something else I

01:27:36   mean he was very successful and he knew

01:27:39   what he wanted to do and he took

01:27:40   advantage of the moment just like so

01:27:42   many of these is very good salespeople

01:27:44   do with those success stories do you

01:27:46   think there's a process of like that

01:27:48   process of learning to walk toward the

01:27:49   door and kind of meet all kinds of mix

01:27:52   of people does that help and and does it

01:27:54   further their career in the end

01:27:56   ultimately and end is learning to sell

01:27:59   have some sort of benefit in general do

01:28:01   you think i've seen articles written

01:28:03   about this that sales training can help

01:28:06   people in almost any location

01:28:09   except you're a monk or somebody that

01:28:11   set a computer all day and we need to

01:28:13   talk to anybody but I think there's some

01:28:15   basic principles that you learn just

01:28:19   going door-to-door one of them is

01:28:21   there's formulas the formula i mentioned

01:28:23   to you that you you have to make so many

01:28:25   stops in an hour in town and i think it

01:28:28   was i think the the formula was eight

01:28:31   stops our if you go slower than that

01:28:34   you're not selling if you're faster that

01:28:36   you're not selling so it stops an hour

01:28:38   in the country it was four stops an hour

01:28:40   so it's formulas that you learn and

01:28:43   there's also the idea that optimism

01:28:47   persistence is so important and I mean

01:28:52   that's kind of an intangible but but it

01:28:54   is important and I think the very best

01:28:57   salesman our friends to the people that

01:28:58   they sell to Johnny Appleseed was a

01:29:01   friend to his people

01:29:02   there's so many examples where they

01:29:04   didn't see them just as salespeople but

01:29:06   they were friends and I think it goes as

01:29:09   far as to talk about some of the

01:29:10   television personalities like Ron Popeil

01:29:12   he comes across to you as a friend I've

01:29:16   got something I want to share with you

01:29:17   give me a moment and

01:29:19   I'll tell you about it because it's

01:29:20   really pretty good bargain and only 999

01:29:23   a month for and i'll give you something

01:29:28   extra with that i'll give you a cookbook

01:29:29   or whatever it is they they know the

01:29:33   people are talking to in there they're

01:29:35   like friends and the moment as a teacher

01:29:39   I can't call it the teachable moment but

01:29:41   the it's a sellable or the sales moment

01:29:44   when there's a moment when you say yes i

01:29:46   know that this is something you could

01:29:48   use one of the quotes is the last one to

01:29:51   say something you know the cell is the

01:29:54   buyer so you wait until the customer

01:29:59   says something you don't talk over the

01:30:01   customer you you let the customer

01:30:03   finally say something and person that

01:30:05   says something last is probably the one

01:30:07   who's winning

01:30:08   I should say is is buying in this

01:30:11   particular case there are techniques and

01:30:14   some of it is more art than science but

01:30:19   a lot of it is things that you can tell

01:30:21   people you should be doing it this way

01:30:23   for instance one salesman very

01:30:27   successful says you gotta have a gimmick

01:30:28   his gimmick was jewelry he had some very

01:30:32   fancy jewelry watches and things that

01:30:35   people isn't really that's very

01:30:37   interesting and so they would become

01:30:39   interested in him as an individual's a

01:30:41   way that's what you got there that's

01:30:43   entry that was his his thing

01:30:45   how did your book wound up happening how

01:30:48   did how did with bangs get written and

01:30:50   what was the process there

01:30:52   I'm a history teacher and i was asked by

01:30:54   the Newberry Library to put together

01:30:57   some us appliance on a

01:30:59   turn-of-the-century sales activity or

01:31:02   labor activity in chicago and i decided

01:31:05   to focus on merchandising and marketing

01:31:08   and and as I was doing that I realized

01:31:10   that this is this inches to a lesson

01:31:14   plan it's a book so seven years later I

01:31:17   ended up completing this book about

01:31:20   traveling salesman it was some of the

01:31:22   most rewarding times that I've ever had

01:31:24   combed the stacks of the library

01:31:27   Congress and the new

01:31:28   Barry librarian in fact that's where I

01:31:30   found this journal this Bible salesman

01:31:32   am Jones was a journal

01:31:34   I don't know that anybody ever seen it

01:31:35   it was I had a handle it with gloves

01:31:39   because it was very fragile probably one

01:31:42   of the first things i find it with this

01:31:43   is this is unbelievable

01:31:45   maybe this is something that's written

01:31:46   by a traveling salesman you know a

01:31:48   hundred-plus years ago and it told me

01:31:51   his techniques and everything else and

01:31:54   so one thing led to another I realized

01:31:56   that such a wonderful rich rich field

01:32:00   and i had the opportunity to do is serve

01:32:02   as a researcher in that library Congress

01:32:05   home their stacks for everything they

01:32:06   had visited museums i visited the parson

01:32:10   whims museum and virginia and i went

01:32:14   through their stacks they had a lot of

01:32:16   information about personal whims and I

01:32:18   don't want it was just there's so many

01:32:19   not wonderful resource is the patent

01:32:23   medicine capital of the country which is

01:32:26   marshall michigan at the turn of the

01:32:29   century early 20th century there were a

01:32:31   hundred plus patent medicine businesses

01:32:33   in marshall michigan talk to a lot of

01:32:35   people there and we knew a lot about the

01:32:37   patent medicine business and that was

01:32:40   that was thrilling to to get in touch so

01:32:42   they're just a number of resources being

01:32:45   able to talk to people being able to go

01:32:47   to museums libraries and some of said

01:32:51   well you became sort of a traveling

01:32:52   salesman show again by kind of traveling

01:32:55   around and selling my ideas or at least

01:32:58   buying idea that goes from others you

01:33:01   have a whole section about humor that's

01:33:03   based around the travelling salesman in

01:33:05   your book

01:33:06   how did that come about some historians

01:33:08   believe that you can tell more about the

01:33:10   life of a Salesman by reading the humor

01:33:13   of the day then than almost anything

01:33:15   else because some of the humor that I

01:33:17   have collected goes back under 50 years

01:33:20   and it's funny today as I think it

01:33:21   probably was the day that the salesman

01:33:24   first uttered it a lot of jokes about

01:33:26   themselves they like to make fun of

01:33:28   themselves and so many that so much of

01:33:31   humor is a farm farmer salesman my

01:33:36   favorite story is the Traveling Salesman

01:33:39   came up to the door

01:33:40   r and as he was knocking in the farmers

01:33:43   door life comes to the door and he

01:33:46   notices a three-legged picture i would

01:33:48   speak with it wouldn't like running by

01:33:50   you said before I sell you something

01:33:51   I've got to ask you about this

01:33:53   three-legged figured what's with that

01:33:55   and want to see that pig is very special

01:33:58   well i think i can see that it's got

01:34:00   three legs and I wouldn't like they're

01:34:01   well it does more that pig our daughter

01:34:04   is failing math and that pic to your

01:34:06   daughter she's straight A's

01:34:08   well thatthat's that special but it will

01:34:10   what about the three legs

01:34:12   there's more this house was on fire that

01:34:15   pig comes in rescues us and today we're

01:34:17   here because that pig got us out of the

01:34:19   house

01:34:20   well that's that special but what about

01:34:22   the three lights there's more we were

01:34:25   destitute we didn't know where our next

01:34:26   dollars coming from the pig nose that

01:34:29   goes the backyard is all vines oil

01:34:31   ok alright alright special p tell me

01:34:34   about the three legs well I pic like

01:34:36   that you can't eat all the words it's

01:34:39   great you mentioned at the start that

01:34:42   all of this historical traveling sales

01:34:44   is wound up coming around and now kind

01:34:45   of there are glimmers of it on TV in the

01:34:49   internet and you specifically you

01:34:51   reference that the grocery store chain

01:34:53   jewel here in Illinois but that's sort

01:34:56   of a good example of what goes around

01:34:58   comes around that kind of idea in sales

01:35:01   the drill teeth company has started out

01:35:05   in Chicago actually doridori you went

01:35:08   door-to-door selling coffee and tea and

01:35:10   things and it was an innovation at the

01:35:12   time because at that point if you want

01:35:15   to get coffee and tea you go to store

01:35:17   and it probably in a barrel

01:35:18   it wasn't very fresh and so he was able

01:35:21   to deliver some fresh food door to door

01:35:23   out of his wagon and of course one thing

01:35:27   led to another and it became a grocery

01:35:30   store he actually the the founders of

01:35:33   jewel T work or relatives they were

01:35:36   eventually acquired by the grocery store

01:35:39   business move fast forward to do about

01:35:43   that perhaps 20 years ago and the

01:35:46   introduction of

01:35:47   peapod and what happened was of course

01:35:50   people now started going to the grocery

01:35:53   stores picking out the items for you and

01:35:56   in delivering them to you so that you

01:35:58   get the fresh products needed nap to go

01:36:00   to the store and get them yourself you

01:36:02   know where they got those items from

01:36:04   jewel T they actually shop jewel T to

01:36:08   pick up the groceries to deliver to the

01:36:11   people so it came full cycle you know

01:36:14   you go from door to door to the grocery

01:36:17   store and back started our and it's

01:36:20   that's that's so typical of of of the

01:36:23   way this thing goes it it comes out in a

01:36:26   different way but it's still

01:36:28   door-to-door sales and stillbirths

01:36:30   sounds so that's a that's a that's kind

01:36:34   of the story of travel

01:36:38   the priest eating podcast was brought to

01:36:40   you by field notes brand notebooks

01:36:42   specifically in connection with a

01:36:44   limited edition pocket memo books for

01:36:46   fall the Traveling Salesman addition

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01:36:51   in the USA field notes each with a dark

01:36:53   and rich french paper pop down cover and

01:36:56   embossed logo and gold text inside the

01:36:58   Traveling Salesman addition you'll find

01:37:00   like green paper with ledger lines great

01:37:03   for tracking expenses sales mileage or

01:37:06   any other data you gather on the road

01:37:07   for more information please visit field

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