0:00:00multi had the had the article in the
0:00:03magazine i really liked that I of i say
0:00:06this with the no hyperbole but it's my
0:00:09favorite article from the magazine
0:00:11Wow five issues and I should just I
0:00:13should get off right now
0:00:15now it's pretty let's get all downhill
0:00:16from here so wait this conversation gets
0:00:19any better than that
0:00:20yeah i'm not going to spoil it but
0:00:22everybody if you don't read in the
0:00:23magazines or not because you're not
0:00:26right yeah there's some great
0:00:28there's just been some great pieces in
0:00:29there Jason snails piece this week was
0:00:31particularly good you know what I
0:00:32haven't read that yet because I yeah
0:00:34well you wait was because that's why
0:00:36that's why you think mine is better and
0:00:38why you think mines the best because i
0:00:39read yours is just don't question is is
0:00:42better i was an issue behind so I read
0:00:44the issue for and then I opened up issue
0:00:465 and I read your piece and chuckled and
0:00:48then I opened his and I saw where it was
0:00:50going and it was real late i was like
0:00:51sleepy and I was like you know what this
0:00:53is not i'm going to read this one
0:00:55yeah little heavy but yeah yeah it's
0:00:59great stuff going on there
0:01:00ya know it's really it's like it's a
0:01:02good read every every time it comes out
0:01:04to every two weeks right
0:01:05every two weeks i believe ya and way you
0:01:10know what I guess I i have a you know I
0:01:12guess I'm just it's weird because it's
0:01:14like a big circle of my friends like
0:01:16rights you know Glenn was on the show
0:01:17two weeks ago that you're on what's his
0:01:23name has been on already
0:01:25you know the guy marker and marking on
0:01:31the show that guy huh
0:01:34I but it's you know it's just really
0:01:37good and I think it's funny how it its
0:01:39it has come out and it's a new thing and
0:01:43so what five issues two weeks so it's
0:01:46like been like 10 weeks like a month and
0:01:48i had two months two and a half months
0:01:49or so since it debuted I and it's like
0:01:53starting to settle in and you know I I
0:01:56don't think it's a hit but it's clearly
0:01:58successful it succeeded Marco is
0:02:00admitted that it's you know it's it's
0:02:01above you know like the minimum number
0:02:04of paying subscribers that he thought he
0:02:05needed
0:02:06yeah on but probably shouldn't point out
0:02:09that publishing on the ipad is dead
0:02:11right and now public
0:02:13and the ipad is dead because you know
0:02:14it's too bad it's too bad he got in
0:02:16because it's a because it just died and
0:02:20it's just there's a couple of things
0:02:22that to me make it so it is such a neat
0:02:25fit to compare and contrast with the
0:02:27daily even just starting with the names
0:02:31you know that they have this both have
0:02:32these sort of the overly generic names
0:02:36right the magnetizing the daily one of
0:02:39them is this huge 25 million dollar your
0:02:41operation from you know what most people
0:02:45many people would argue is like the most
0:02:47evil people publishing corporation in
0:02:50the world Rupert Murdoch's News Corp and
0:02:53then the other is you know tiny little
0:02:55one-man operation it equally evil but I
0:03:00you know is it to man-to-man now to now
0:03:04to announce you man yeah so closer
0:03:06inching closer to 2 News Corp right and
0:03:14I just you know it's ji I was I
0:03:16shouldn't be surprised but I was
0:03:18surprised at when the dailies demise was
0:03:22announced I guess on monday this week
0:03:24and I just how quickly so many people
0:03:27jump to the conclusion that it was proof
0:03:30that I pattern publishing is impossible
0:03:33I mean that's actually would feel
0:03:34examine you actually use the word
0:03:36impossible yeah yeah I think he's a
0:03:38little he's a little chase and about it
0:03:39now
0:03:40to his credit he is a they noted that
0:03:44maybe he was you want too far
0:03:46yeah and you know and he's normally
0:03:47either really really a fairly reasonable
0:03:50guy right yeah it's very good
0:03:52it's really be no he-he's you know usual
0:03:56financial coverage is spot-on is one of
0:03:58my favorites I thought he covered the
0:03:59whole unfortunate fiscal collapse and
0:04:03and almost right black hole cratering of
0:04:06the entire global economy for years ago
0:04:08as well as anybody I really did I really
0:04:11felt like he was one of my go-to guys to
0:04:13like tell me what the hell's going on
0:04:15and tell me that I shouldn't just the
0:04:18action and get gold and put it in put it
0:04:20in my mattress and buy a shotgun you
0:04:24haven't done that now I did my dad's
0:04:26name
0:04:26like I was everything ok ok you seem
0:04:29like you might do that you know you seem
0:04:30like the type it was you know I
0:04:33considered it
0:04:34yeah well it's worth thinking about I
0:04:38but yeah he really jumped to the
0:04:40ultimate conclusion that it was proof
0:04:41that its stead it's impossible and i
0:04:45think you know it's it all comes back to
0:04:48a lot of these other theories about
0:04:49disruption that that you know that like
0:04:51the whole clayton christensen which is a
0:04:54book called yeah you know the guy i
0:05:00don't know that guy and he got this look
0:05:03them up i believe I'm drawing a blank on
0:05:07facebook name is it just looks a big fan
0:05:11disruptive innovation yeah is that the
0:05:13that's not the name of the book though
0:05:15that's not the end of the book okay
0:05:16innovators dilemma
0:05:19oh yeah okay i mean i know that 1i yeah
0:05:21I haven't read it or no other yeah I've
0:05:22heard people talk about it which is all
0:05:24i need
0:05:24that's right yeah but his big theory is
0:05:27always that you know it's you know it's
0:05:28like mammals vs dinosaurs stating that
0:05:30the disruption always comes from the low
0:05:32end you know needs these great case
0:05:36examples about like what put like steel
0:05:38industry you know how to business were
0:05:39these little like places that just
0:05:43melted down junk steel and the bday
0:05:46eventually got so good at it so
0:05:47efficient added that they ended up you
0:05:50know being a better way to battle far
0:05:51cheaper way to manufacture high-quality
0:05:53steel than the traditional steel
0:05:56foundries and etcetera etcetera etcetera
0:05:57but that you're always a disruption
0:06:00always is dismissed by the entrenched
0:06:02because it looks inconsequential or
0:06:06cheaper low-end or something like that
0:06:08it and i think it seems likely that the
0:06:14eventual disruption of apple if it ever
0:06:16happens would be similar right yeah I
0:06:19from so much some corner of the
0:06:20unexpected corners and not from
0:06:24Microsoft not from google write some
0:06:26other place right some other place that
0:06:28you would never expect and that will be
0:06:30dismissed for you know possibly for good
0:06:32reasons you know right i was talking
0:06:35about this before but he was like in The
0:06:36New Yorker
0:06:37profile of clayton christensen David's
0:06:40you know he said one of the things that
0:06:41you know he's wrong about and I love a
0:06:43guy anybody you get big points in my
0:06:45book anybody who's you know supposed to
0:06:46be a guru but talks about the times that
0:06:48they're wrong to me that's like two
0:06:51pluses right there you know in terms of
0:06:53excellent absolutely and he admits he
0:06:55was totally wrong about the iphone he
0:06:56predicted when the iphone first came out
0:06:58that it wasn't really gonna have much of
0:06:59an effect on the phone industry because
0:07:02it was a high-end product that it you
0:07:05know that that disruption was going to
0:07:06come from the low end and in hindsight
0:07:09years later he admits he was wrong
0:07:10because what he didn't understand at
0:07:12first and i think this is brilliant
0:07:14insight is that the iphone wasn't really
0:07:16a high-end phone it was a low-end
0:07:18portable computer right it's like this
0:07:21crummy little three-and-a-half inch
0:07:23screen laptop but because it's so small
0:07:27and tiny and lightweight and lasts all
0:07:29day and has wireless internet everywhere
0:07:31you go it completely disrupted the
0:07:34computer industry and the phone industry
0:07:36at the same time because you didn't need
0:07:37a phone if you had the right which is I
0:07:40think a brilliant way of looking at it
0:07:41and you know I so i'm not saying that
0:07:46Marcos the magazine is going to itself
0:07:50put that other magazines out of business
0:07:52but to me it's the exact sort of thing
0:07:55that fits in with that line of
0:07:57disruptive thinking know that it's it
0:07:58things like the magazine are where the
0:08:04future is and I can totally see how if
0:08:06you pitch that to somebody it you know
0:08:09news corporation or time or something
0:08:12like that that they would just dismiss
0:08:14it and i would say it's just some guy
0:08:15every two weeks putting out 5 750 word
0:08:20essays that's that's nothing
0:08:22you know that what would you know that
0:08:23has nothing to do with what we're trying
0:08:25to do and i would say no it has
0:08:26everything with what you're trying to do
0:08:27which in a nutshell is exactly what's
0:08:30been wrong with the traditional
0:08:32publishing industries response to the
0:08:33Internet
0:08:34yep I mean it's like that's all it's the
0:08:36whole thing it's the whole thing all
0:08:38over again I mean no one's going to
0:08:39trust no instrument trusts blogs no one
0:08:41trusts independent reporters they are
0:08:44they want a big organization like like
0:08:46ours right with editors and managers and
0:08:50a whole advertising department right and
0:08:53the same way to that that most most
0:08:56traditional if you get if you just tell
0:08:59me you don't tell me the name of the the
0:09:01publication but just say this is a
0:09:02big-name publication with national
0:09:04circulation they've been around for a
0:09:06long time I is their website any good
0:09:09i'm gonna guess now right that they tend
0:09:12to most existing traditional
0:09:14publications have really bad websites
0:09:16without yeah I almost with almost
0:09:20without exception and they were
0:09:21especially bad at first like nineteen
0:09:25ninety-six ninety-seven ninety-eight
0:09:26they just didn't get it and you know I
0:09:30remember I mean and and there were big
0:09:32ideas from I even knew things things
0:09:36that weren't rooted in the past but
0:09:38which were from people rooted in the
0:09:40past like and I'm thinking of slate in
0:09:42particular right which was all staffed
0:09:44with people from traditional backgrounds
0:09:47in weekly magazines and that if I think
0:09:51it was wasn't it jointly with Microsoft
0:09:53at first yeah I think so yeah it was
0:09:56like Microsoft and when Microsoft in the
0:09:59nineties resent to trying to become like
0:10:00a media company when they when they got
0:10:03involved with NBC for MSNBC and they
0:10:07co-founded a magazine on and the thing I
0:10:11remember thinking was so weird is icon
0:10:12slate debuted is it
0:10:14it debuted it was all that was was a
0:10:16website there was no print version is
0:10:18just a website and yet they still had
0:10:19weekly issues and end it you would like
0:10:24be like wednesday and here's the new
0:10:25issue of slave come back next wednesday
0:10:27right that you get locked into this way
0:10:31of thinking and slate you know it's
0:10:32still around they're still doing good
0:10:34work but they you know they obviously
0:10:35abandoned that issue idea and it's hard
0:10:37it's really really hard when you think
0:10:40in terms of issues it's really hard to
0:10:42sort of zoom back and and think about a
0:10:45new medium right so that uh only one of
0:10:51the questions I wanted to talk to you
0:10:53about what which have been thinking
0:10:55about just the last few days because
0:10:57everybody keeps talking about Apple
0:10:59apples eventual decline right so many
0:11:03people think
0:11:04it's already happening for some strange
0:11:06reason that i was beyond my
0:11:07comprehension but I think about this and
0:11:11I wonder if it's going to be easier for
0:11:15us to see that or harder for people like
0:11:17us to see that you know that is a very
0:11:20good question i do think about that all
0:11:22the time I i would like to think that we
0:11:28would see it that you and I and yeah you
0:11:32know the people who like I like to have
0:11:33on the show
0:11:34OMG but i wonder i do wonder that
0:11:39whether we've got even you know that we
0:11:42think we're being i like to think that
0:11:44we would see it I can them and one of
0:11:47the reasons i think that is because in
0:11:48the past few weeks there have been a
0:11:50couple pieces published that are sort of
0:11:52thoughtful looks at things that Apple is
0:11:54good at and not good at and I i forget
0:11:59that the name of someone who who you'd
0:12:03like to just yesterday the day before
0:12:05but it was about apples in a bit seeming
0:12:09inability to get cloud services patrick
0:12:12thompson ya done really correctly and a
0:12:15night and I thought your conclusion was
0:12:17was exactly right that it doesn't seem
0:12:18like it
0:12:19buying Twitter is really is really the
0:12:22right solution to that problem but it
0:12:24but it's true it seems to be for
0:12:26whatever reason a blind spot for them
0:12:30and then the other piece was I Michael
0:12:36ops piece on forestall being really
0:12:41leaving and how innovation really often
0:12:46needs argument me and that he wondered
0:12:52if getting rid of forestall means that
0:12:55there would be less argument and if that
0:12:57was a good thing for innovation or bad
0:12:59thing for renovation right then maybe
0:13:01the contention within the upper ranks
0:13:03maybe it was unpleasant day-to-day to
0:13:06deal with but maybe it was the best
0:13:07thing for ya
0:13:10maybe it was the best thing for the
0:13:12company going forward
0:13:13yeah and I i just love those both those
0:13:16pieces
0:13:17my head together because I thought that
0:13:18they were thoughtful pieces on
0:13:21ok maybe these are blind spots of apples
0:13:23that could be concerning the future
0:13:25without being over-the-top you know
0:13:28apples doomed right is and this is the
0:13:32obvious sign of their decline i I've
0:13:34I've mentioned this before
0:13:36ah I don't think for long it's been a
0:13:39long time but probably on the show maybe
0:13:41it was the old show with Dan but that I
0:13:45have long thought that it's like this
0:13:48sort of i was theory is giving it way
0:13:50too much credence but let's call it my
0:13:52theory of first impressions and that
0:13:56we're hooked up evolutionarily primarily
0:14:00all of the things we really ever cared
0:14:02about where a small circle of the other
0:14:03human beings you ever possibly encounter
0:14:05know there's that that number of you
0:14:08know like a hundred and fifty is like
0:14:09most number of people you can have any
0:14:11kind of emotional bond with and we're
0:14:15hooking up to or 55 in my case the eggs
0:14:18right there with your body for real
0:14:28before I was exaggerating its gonna make
0:14:32a joke about that there's a reason that
0:14:34we generally have one kitten
0:14:36nah it's always it's you actually to but
0:14:47I at but my theory is more or less that
0:14:52we're hooked up to you meet other people
0:14:54if somebody hadn't met before
0:14:56you should have a good instinct that you
0:14:59should be able to make a good first
0:15:00impression and accurate first impression
0:15:02is this someone you should trust is it
0:15:04someone you shouldn't trust is it
0:15:05someone you like and you know not that
0:15:08we're never wrong and not that first
0:15:09impression sometimes are unsurprisingly
0:15:11misleading but in general where we're
0:15:14really good at that and as evolution and
0:15:16there's really strong evolutionary
0:15:17reasons to do to be like that but I also
0:15:20think that first impressions solidified
0:15:22very quickly and and when you're dealing
0:15:24with people people don't change that
0:15:26much right once you get to know someone
0:15:28don't even think i'm not even talking
0:15:29about like your
0:15:3030 second first impression but like I
0:15:33just met you you're the new guy in the
0:15:35office and you know we meet and we you
0:15:38know the course of a couple of weeks we
0:15:40get to know each other 10 years from now
0:15:42you're not going to be that different
0:15:43right you're still the same person
0:15:44unless you know you get hit the head or
0:15:47something like that but that's often
0:15:48very hard to deal with like if you've
0:15:50ever met anybody who's had a head injury
0:15:53it's it's often it will throw you off
0:15:55because you think that they're the same
0:15:56and because they're not isn't it it's
0:16:00really hard for families to deal with
0:16:01that I mean I know trying to make light
0:16:03of it i and i think that a lot of people
0:16:08when it comes
0:16:09we're not hooked up to deal with
0:16:10something like Apple which is an
0:16:12incredibly different company than what
0:16:14it used to be but so many people
0:16:16especially businesspeople investors and
0:16:19business writers invested writers and
0:16:22stuff like that have this impression of
0:16:24apple from the nineties that is that
0:16:27still what they see is apple and there's
0:16:30just nothing that's going to it we're
0:16:32gonna have to wait until they get sold
0:16:35that they retire before it really the
0:16:37company really shakes that right and
0:16:39that it's still seen as this little guy
0:16:42or the upstart or the the the deviant
0:16:45from the norm in the industry and so you
0:16:48still see people talking about Apple
0:16:50like that when Apple gets in trouble
0:16:52that they could go under go down or just
0:16:55completely collapse like that's actually
0:16:57impossible at this point apple is so big
0:16:59and so successful that the worst thing
0:17:01that would happen i think is stagnation
0:17:04right like sort of more or less what
0:17:07happened to microsoft and that's and
0:17:09that's the other thing that people tend
0:17:10to do is they they want to apply then
0:17:13they always want to do this they want to
0:17:15apply something that happened in the
0:17:17past they want they want to say that's
0:17:19the pc wars between the mac and windows
0:17:24are exactly the same as what's going on
0:17:26between iOS and Android right now and
0:17:28none of these things ever repeat
0:17:29themselves exactly the same way right
0:17:32and and they want to say that
0:17:33oh my god Apple's the new microsoft
0:17:35right I or that androids the new windows
0:17:41and iOS is young man
0:17:43again but you know that the numbers are
0:17:45so staggeringly different that it
0:17:46doesn't make any sense to think of it
0:17:48that way and I also in the whole
0:17:49industry is different too i mean it's
0:17:51not as hard to code I think I don't know
0:17:54I don't know the reasons for this
0:17:55particularly because then I'm not a
0:17:57coder but back in the nineties it was
0:18:00much more of a trial to try and move
0:18:03code between to eat between windows on
0:18:06the mac then and it i think it is today
0:18:08trying to do it just seems like it's
0:18:11easier for the day there's a lot more
0:18:12cross development going on right now I
0:18:16definitely think so and I don't know why
0:18:17I like i said i don't know why that that
0:18:19is but it doesn't seem like it's as big
0:18:21a deal to try and say okay what we wrote
0:18:23this for for iOS what's right for
0:18:25android or vice versa
0:18:27whereas nobody did that back in very
0:18:31very limited number of large
0:18:32applications were quoted for both
0:18:34platforms back in the nineties yeah i
0:18:37think that there's some that's a good
0:18:40guys actually probably good question for
0:18:42the whole for like a whole show but i
0:18:43think part of it is that that back then
0:18:46computers were so meager technically so
0:18:49much slower cpu so such by today's
0:18:53standards such incredibly tiny amounts
0:18:55of ram
0:18:56yeah that you really kind of had to
0:18:58write it right good software down to the
0:19:00metal arc is closed above the metal as
0:19:04you can get to make it efficient and
0:19:07that it was really hard to have like an
0:19:09abstraction layer that was cross
0:19:11platform because it involved even a
0:19:13little bit of overhead it you just
0:19:17couldn't afford that that any sort of
0:19:18inefficiency like that I but that is a
0:19:25good segue that this whole idea of of of
0:19:28Apple you know what would an apple
0:19:31declined look like and it is getting rid
0:19:35of forestall to alleviate contention
0:19:38good or bad in that direction leads
0:19:41right into the probably the biggest
0:19:43thing this week is this extensive
0:19:45interview with Tim Cook in bloomberg
0:19:49well what is it businessweek Bloomberg I
0:19:51don't know what you know what do you
0:19:52call it
0:19:52Bloomberg's uber this is bloomberg
0:19:54businessweek I get really confused about
0:19:56too because they look totally different
0:19:57but Bloomberg owns businessweek and the
0:20:00interview I guess is in the magazines
0:20:02probably be the cover story I and they
0:20:05broke it across 11 pages you have to
0:20:07click 11 different web pages but then if
0:20:08you go to bloomberg.com you can get the
0:20:10exact same article on one nice pit don't
0:20:14understand is talking about the reality
0:20:15oh yeah but they cover that in the
0:20:18article there's a part here where that
0:20:22he sort of asked about forestall and
0:20:27what does he say here I the question is
0:20:33the past few weeks you replace two
0:20:35members of your senior executive t
0:20:36mobile software head Scott Forstall and
0:20:38retail chief john browett how do these
0:20:41moves make apple better which is a
0:20:43polite way of saying what was wrong and
0:20:45that's actually that's not me adding
0:20:47that aside that's actually the question
0:20:48asked cook book says the key in the
0:20:51change that you're referencing is my
0:20:53deep belief that collaboration is
0:20:54essential for innovation and I didn't
0:20:57just start believing that I've always
0:20:58believed that it's always been a core
0:21:00belief that Apple Steve very deeply
0:21:02believe this
0:21:03so the changes it's not a matter of
0:21:05going from no collaboration to
0:21:07collaboration we have an enormous level
0:21:09of collaboration that Apple but it's a
0:21:11matter of taking it to another level
0:21:13you look at what we are great at there
0:21:14are many things but the one thing we do
0:21:16which I don't know what else does is
0:21:17integrate hardware software and services
0:21:19in a way that most consumers begin to
0:21:23not differentiate anymore they just care
0:21:25that the experiences fantastic blah blah
0:21:27blah i wait but then he talks all right
0:21:31here's what he says Mr Kim cook
0:21:32continuing he says you don't have silos
0:21:34built up where everybody is trying to
0:21:36optimize their silo and figuring out how
0:21:39to grab turf and all of these things
0:21:41makes all of our jobs easier so we're
0:21:43freed up to focus on the things that
0:21:45truly matter i mean that to me doesn't
0:21:46mention forestall but clearly that's
0:21:48talking about forestall who had the the
0:21:52the silo iOS yeah and kind and it also
0:21:57sounds like Microsoft to me
0:21:59not that i know that well how Microsoft
0:22:02is structured and and if that kind of
0:22:03thing goes on but they do have it that
0:22:07that review system where they fit
0:22:09everybody into a bell curve right and
0:22:12you know it even if you did great
0:22:15if they think someone did better than
0:22:17you you're going to get forced down so
0:22:19it's like 10 there's like a top 10% that
0:22:21does really well there's the meat of the
0:22:24bell curve that's eighty percent and
0:22:27then the other ten percent of all the
0:22:28way to force down to the bottom
0:22:30yeah what's that called actually wanted
0:22:33to talk more strength forced ranking is
0:22:35one thing
0:22:36yeah stack ranking or something like
0:22:38yeah I actually wanted to talk to lop
0:22:40about that would have to happen back on
0:22:42the show but i forgot to when he was on
0:22:44because you know is he's like wait
0:22:45the only guy I know who knows anything
0:22:46about engineering management
0:22:48yeah but i would love to get his opinion
0:22:50on that but it's it does seem it seems
0:22:52like one of those be careful what you
0:22:53test for on type warnings like the idea
0:22:58is that if you have a five-person if
0:23:00your product manager microsoft you have
0:23:02a five-person team when it comes time to
0:23:04give the reviews you get you get like
0:23:07one gold star to give out to goods and I
0:23:10have to give out to too bad no sad faces
0:23:13you have to so if you've recruited a
0:23:15team of five all-stars and you know
0:23:18which you would think would be a great
0:23:19way to make a great product you've got
0:23:21to give two of them bad reviews you have
0:23:23to and so what you end up getting
0:23:25everybody seems to agree is that it
0:23:29doesn't really reward excellence at what
0:23:31you're doing it rewards excellence at
0:23:34getting your product manager to give you
0:23:37the gold star
0:23:38yeah right you're gonna take your gaming
0:23:40the game i think it's broader than that
0:23:42I don't think they may force it down to
0:23:44the like the team level so i don't think
0:23:46i don't think you get a situation
0:23:48whether you were five people and and
0:23:50somebody gets screwed and even if all
0:23:51five didn't know it does honestly Reed
0:23:54is that right is that right really ok
0:23:56it really is and as I work someplace
0:23:59that was going to implement the system
0:24:01and people were just up in arms about it
0:24:04and eventually backed off of it and now
0:24:06it was it was going to be more corporate
0:24:10yday from when I remember at least our
0:24:13implementation of it was going to be
0:24:15more corporate one so I said yeah yeah
0:24:18yeah that's how it works and so you end
0:24:19up with which is
0:24:20we're almost to where it let's say you
0:24:21are really good at what you do you're
0:24:23really good programmer but you're
0:24:25thinking about switching to a new team
0:24:28well it's to your interest to go to that
0:24:29team if you know there's a couple of
0:24:31turkeys on because if you're it just
0:24:34looking out for your career because
0:24:35you're gonna shine
0:24:36whereas if you're looking at a team or
0:24:38you know there's a couple of other
0:24:40superstars there you might think well
0:24:42this might hurt my career because I I
0:24:44don't know that I can I don't know that
0:24:46I can get a ranking better than those
0:24:47two guys because they're awesome
0:24:49yeah just seems terrible it seems
0:24:52counterproductive and now but it's also
0:24:54true and i think it's an interesting
0:24:56contrast though at the senior management
0:24:57level though where Microsoft is
0:24:59organized in a way that I think most
0:25:01companies are by-product divisions right
0:25:03Steven Sinofsky was the head of windows
0:25:078 right and he had nothing to do with
0:25:09the phone like I remember asking him
0:25:12because I got to speak to him a little
0:25:13bit at the thing in New York a couple
0:25:14weeks ago at the windows 8 launch event
0:25:16I and they had done a thing i think was
0:25:19thursday in New York they were debuting
0:25:21windows 8 and then monday in San
0:25:24Francisco they were debuting windows
0:25:26phone 8 and i justjust offhandedly I
0:25:28asked if he was you know just you know a
0:25:31way to chat about the weather and
0:25:33traveled it did he have to hop on a
0:25:35plane and go all the way back to the
0:25:36west coast for the monday thing and he
0:25:39was nine I have nothing to do with that
0:25:40so he wasn't even go into it and I kind
0:25:43of thought that you know but they're the
0:25:45Apple is is organized in a very opposite
0:25:48way especially now that forestall Scott
0:25:51like maybe forestall was the equivalent
0:25:52of Sinofsky was in charge of an
0:25:54operating system iOS um but now it's not
0:26:00like that at all
0:26:01you know Johnny I've is in charge of all
0:26:03design design of everything your
0:26:05shoulder is in charge of all marketing
0:26:07doesn't matter if you have you know
0:26:08Apple is in charge of iphone marketing
0:26:10ipad marketing math marketing if Apple
0:26:13comes out with something totally new
0:26:15they come out with the apple branded car
0:26:17will shoulder is in charge of the
0:26:18marketing of it right Johnny I've is in
0:26:20charge of the design of it uh it's a
0:26:25different or it's a very different
0:26:26organization and that you know i think
0:26:29it's it's it's a open question whether
0:26:33that's
0:26:33that's the better way to do it yeah the
0:26:37counterpoint I thought of two locks
0:26:39argument is that it because when you
0:26:42reach a point where the person one of
0:26:45the people creating the argument is so
0:26:49difficult that you either lose you it
0:26:54becomes harder to get good people in the
0:26:57other positions right because a lot of
0:26:59people don't want to deal with that crap
0:27:01they don't have a don't have to like
0:27:04have an argument every time they go into
0:27:05a meeting and it and i think that you
0:27:08know it had something you know I mean I
0:27:10played a part in the the thermostat boy
0:27:16with Tony Fadell Tony Fadell him leaving
0:27:20and and I think it seemed like it was
0:27:22playing a part in Big Bob Mansfield
0:27:24leaving
0:27:25I am so glad you could call it that but
0:27:28i always call in five minutes
0:27:30yeah in a different way that this is
0:27:31played out has been a little
0:27:33surprisingly open for apple right like
0:27:36it seems like the Mansfield thing is is
0:27:39it just became kind of obvious right
0:27:41right and I don't know that they were so
0:27:43open about it necessarily as it just was
0:27:45like a hope
0:27:46Oh mansfield on his way out of 4 stars
0:27:50leaving me that's gonna stick around for
0:27:52a little while and you can have your
0:27:53head up a new set up an entirely new
0:27:55organization
0:27:56yeah I but there also were reports i
0:28:00forget who had it but somebody had like
0:28:01you know sources who wouldn't be named
0:28:04different familiar with the situation as
0:28:05they say that that Jony ive was at ya
0:28:11was refusing to go into any meeting were
0:28:13forced always gonna be yeah and i think
0:28:15they said the same about mansfield in
0:28:16the or maybe at least he didn't I got
0:28:19220 yeah meetings with forced all right
0:28:21I and so that you know I while I
0:28:24understand the argument yet I've got
0:28:26nothing
0:28:26you know I like a good argument but when
0:28:28you have someone is so difficult that
0:28:30right
0:28:30he's actually pushing other people you
0:28:32know very talented people and
0:28:33particularly you think talk about
0:28:35mansfield in and cook talks about him in
0:28:37that interview he is really probably the
0:28:40best hardware manager anywhere in the in
0:28:44the technology industry
0:28:45yeah he's just got to be right at me
0:28:47because
0:28:47they make and pick the best hardware and
0:28:49the guy seems pretty bright and since
0:28:52he's been there they really have made an
0:28:55enormous number of innovations you know
0:28:57yeah just thinking about you know this
0:28:59whole move to these systems on a chip
0:29:01I'm the way that they deal with
0:29:04batteries along yeah yeah I mean we made
0:29:07fun of that when they when they did the
0:29:08that the Liberty gives the last macworld
0:29:11right where we're shoulder was the
0:29:13keynote and the big announcement was
0:29:15whatever it was was that there were
0:29:17integrating the battery we no longer
0:29:20have removable batteries and write
0:29:2117-inch macbook pro and they did the big
0:29:26video was was a video about battery
0:29:28technology right which was really you
0:29:31know not exist as exciting as the two
0:29:34years earlier when they announced the
0:29:35iphone obviously but at the same time it
0:29:39turned out to be a better battery
0:29:40technology is a really important part of
0:29:42their business
0:29:43yeah it's you know there's a
0:29:45self-congratulatory angle on all those
0:29:48behind the scenes you know talking to
0:29:50his Jony ive talking about how beautiful
0:29:52it is Bob Mansfield you know talking
0:29:54about how amazing this battery is and
0:29:57there's sort of a who cares aspect to it
0:29:59i mean there's a reason why they show it
0:30:01to the press at these things even though
0:30:03they're superhot production guys and
0:30:05they don't they're not like when they
0:30:06put the commercials on TV for Christmas
0:30:08they're not showing they're not trying
0:30:10to get people excited about the battery
0:30:12integration with every great man
0:30:14ok like that Monday Night Football ad
0:30:18for with big pot man still talking about
0:30:20a battery or did or maybe they did the
0:30:23ones that may be the closest they've
0:30:24come to that was when they first switch
0:30:26to intel processors and they had that
0:30:28thing with the postal service song you
0:30:32have God they had it they had a
0:30:35commercial at Apple gonna have the
0:30:38google this later the band the band the
0:30:41poster the band is called the postal
0:30:43yeah i know i know there or maybe that
0:30:46maybe it was like a ripoff it was a
0:30:48argue is arguably a ripoff of some music
0:30:51video had a commercial that showed like
0:30:53cpus coming down an assembly line you
0:30:57know
0:30:58with these yeah robotic things cutting
0:31:00them up and it was a regular media
0:31:02I don't know but anyway that was maybe
0:31:06the closest they came yeah was trying to
0:31:07get people excited about intel cpus I'm
0:31:10but it is interesting because i do think
0:31:13there's insight to be gleaned from these
0:31:15things about what Apple honestly thinks
0:31:17is important and what they're proud of
0:31:19my mom
0:31:22I you know it they're they're very quiet
0:31:26they don't say much but when they do say
0:31:28things i do think and I think it's one
0:31:30of the things a lot of people don't
0:31:31understand about Apple there they're
0:31:32surprisingly forthcoming I i keep
0:31:36thinking I haven't written about it but
0:31:38I keep thinking about it goes also going
0:31:41back to switch from powerpc to Intel it
0:31:45was a WWDC keynote it did take everybody
0:31:48by surprise everyone know you know it's
0:31:50long been rumored but you know it was
0:31:52only like the friday before when the
0:31:54Wall Street Journal said yeah this is
0:31:56going to happen and everybody was sort
0:31:57of like what was that
0:31:58how's that going to work and onstage
0:32:01talking about it Steve Jobs explanation
0:32:05was more or less this argument about
0:32:07power her energy and performance / not
0:32:14just your performance but performance /
0:32:17energy consumption and that this was the
0:32:21future of computing and that these intel
0:32:24cpus they were switching to gave them so
0:32:27much more computing power per watt of
0:32:30energy burn which if you think about his
0:32:34and he was very passionate about it and
0:32:35it was almost like come on Steve but if
0:32:40you think about it isn't that exactly
0:32:42like like shouldn't the guy who listen
0:32:45the most intently to that shouldn't have
0:32:47been Paul Otellini right because isn't
0:32:50that exactly where Intel is now found
0:32:52itself behind this every yeah and that's
0:32:55this whole revolution with these arm
0:32:56processors for phones and tablets is is
0:33:01not sure performance right i mean you
0:33:03know that the high-end ipad 4 is in
0:33:07terms of like benchmarking way slower
0:33:10and the cheapest macbook right it's not
0:33:14it's not that fast as it just as sure
0:33:16processor it's about battery life and
0:33:20this this new division of performance
0:33:23versus energy consumption and heat right
0:33:27and whens cook look at Steve Jobs really
0:33:31laid it all out on the line back in i
0:33:32don't when was that 2006 2005 mean
0:33:35really like such a belt it out
0:33:37yeah what does could call he didn't in
0:33:42that little video so NBC also had a
0:33:45short cut of what is gonna be on tonight
0:33:49right as i think it's on tonight
0:33:51yes it's on tonight on the rock-hard
0:33:53show right on Brian way my rock hard
0:33:59isn't that the name of the show and now
0:34:04it's not as its I don't know I really
0:34:07don't know
0:34:08ok let me look it up it's brian williams
0:34:12rockecenter yeah yeah yeah alright Brian
0:34:15Williams rock hard as a different show
0:34:17that's a different show it's on later
0:34:19because ego that was he called the
0:34:24processors because they had a funny word
0:34:28for it doesn't say process races like
0:34:30brain or something
0:34:31engine engine i think the eyes are you
0:34:34talking about i think thats is what I
0:34:36think you talked about the operating
0:34:37system not the processor because it
0:34:39because he said it's made in the USA
0:34:41that must mean that I think he means
0:34:42this but that the engine is the it i
0:34:48don't know where are the processors
0:34:50maybe they bought that they're designed
0:34:52they designed them
0:34:53yes they bought that company and I guess
0:34:58I thought they also made them it's all
0:35:00very secretive but an hour samsung is
0:35:02still making them for you know that's a
0:35:04whole awkward relationship with with
0:35:07Samsung that they've got this almost
0:35:10Shakespearean sort of duality now and
0:35:13then I guess I know Samsung has I got
0:35:15chipped fab in Texas where they make
0:35:17some but I don't know if they make them
0:35:18all
0:35:19it does seem it seems kind of crazy like
0:35:21the way everything hopscotch is all
0:35:23around where they make the
0:35:24last in Kentucky and then send it over
0:35:27to China and they make the CPUs in Texas
0:35:29and then send them over to China and
0:35:31then they put them all together and then
0:35:32send the phones back to the US I thought
0:35:36he was talking about the operating
0:35:38system maybe you're right cabbie was
0:35:39talking I just talked about the
0:35:40processors but I oh I don't know it and
0:35:43I could be there
0:35:43I don't know yeah but that's the other
0:35:46thing that he announced is that they're
0:35:50gonna start trying to do a little more
0:35:52manufacturing in the United States and
0:35:54today there was also announcement that
0:35:56Foxconn is going to so I don't know if
0:35:58those two things are the same
0:35:59oh really seems like yeah that Foxconn
0:36:01is going to open or do more
0:36:03manufacturing in the u.s. mean I don't
0:36:07know if they doing here you're currently
0:36:08but so we're gonna get some of that
0:36:11great foxconn job so if you're looking
0:36:16for a sweatshop job it's not really a
0:36:21sweatshop but yeah yeah he doesn't wait
0:36:28another 10 13 another one to file under
0:36:31be careful what you wish for
0:36:33yeah right way yeah we will bring those
0:36:35jobs back to America this sucks I and
0:36:42that's the other thing that I I feel
0:36:44fairly confident that someone will
0:36:47predict that Apple's decline it you know
0:36:51another sign of apples impending decline
0:36:53is that they're bringing jobs United
0:36:55States anything they do differently is a
0:36:57sign that they're declining right right
0:36:59i could see i mean i can see sort of
0:37:02your argument there because you'd be
0:37:03saying well that means they're gonna
0:37:05have to be more expensive and you know
0:37:07whatever see there's there is a there is
0:37:11room for a reasonable argument but the
0:37:12same time it I think I and this is the
0:37:16sort of the whole problem with these
0:37:17arguments is that because of apples
0:37:20track record and because it still has
0:37:22basically the same core of good
0:37:25executives that it had and the and the
0:37:29right guy leading the company i trust
0:37:33their ability to execute and
0:37:37to accept all these up counter-arguments
0:37:41that's to say that the company is surely
0:37:43in decline you have to sort of throw
0:37:45that out you have to say no only you
0:37:48know Steve Jobs was the only one that
0:37:50was worth of damage the company and
0:37:51everybody else is a mouth breathing
0:37:54right number so I don't get I mean
0:37:58obviously right actually I don't get
0:38:00that and I think the I mean I was your
0:38:05private was your overall impression of
0:38:07the of the interview I thought it was
0:38:08pretty
0:38:09that was pretty good for how these
0:38:11things are are done
0:38:13yes to certain degree these are all puff
0:38:15pieces he wasn't really throwing
0:38:17anything terribly difficult but it would
0:38:20but it also wasn't complete softballs
0:38:22right like ideally we you know you'd
0:38:26love to get some yeah they know that you
0:38:29didn't bother asking anything about
0:38:31future products right you have ideally
0:38:33to satisfy our curiosity would like to
0:38:36know
0:38:37stuffed to a level of detail that is
0:38:39outside apples interest in sharing right
0:38:42and Tim Cook has not added in bold and
0:38:45so he's not going to do that but I feel
0:38:47like in terms of the line of what he
0:38:49might be willing to talk about
0:38:51I felt like like that the interview is
0:38:54very well done and that it went it went
0:38:56up to that line and kind of filled today
0:38:57yeah right like you're not going to the
0:39:00apples not going to let somebody follow
0:39:02a product development team around for
0:39:05six months and document exactly how they
0:39:07actually do it i thought one of the most
0:39:11interesting tidbits IM it makes sense if
0:39:13you think about it but I hadn't thought
0:39:14about it this way was very said that
0:39:15that eighty percent of the company's
0:39:18revenue from this corner is coming from
0:39:20products that were released within the
0:39:22last 60 days
0:39:23yeah which is its kind of amazing
0:39:27we don't really yeah you really think
0:39:28about that because they did turn the
0:39:29whole ipad line over right and and what
0:39:33do you have the ipod too right oh that's
0:39:36just true that's true but i suspect i
0:39:40very much
0:39:41well I don't know that's interesting i
0:39:42wonder if you I mean I'm so i'm assuming
0:39:44that that statistic is yes he's not he's
0:39:47not over emphasize area
0:39:50now I that seemed bigger than it really
0:39:53is
0:39:54right now but i don't think that the
0:39:55ipad i think it's a hit i think it's
0:39:57successful i and I've said before and
0:39:58that's the only reason why they would
0:40:00keep it around is that people are buying
0:40:01it right whether it's they're still
0:40:03buying it with the many available you
0:40:05know was that the price that was making
0:40:06them buy it or was it the fact that they
0:40:08really wanted the tenants eyes and they
0:40:10just want the cheapest one that it will
0:40:12know the answer to that if that I you
0:40:13know if it sticks around but you know I
0:40:16i think i think tim cook that sort of
0:40:18thing that I don't think he would miss
0:40:20speak about like he might I yeah I don't
0:40:21think so either you might get
0:40:23loosey-goosey about what's the quote
0:40:24engine of the phone like that might be
0:40:27something that he's just going to wave
0:40:28his hands about when it's comes to
0:40:30things like we're eighty percent of the
0:40:32revenues coming yeah yeah i think you
0:40:34know i think the guys like a living
0:40:37breathing spreadsheet
0:40:38yeah i guess probably scary how much of
0:40:41that stuff he's got his edited given
0:40:43moment
0:40:44yeah that was the thing i look kinda
0:40:46look for is he seemed it i'm trying to
0:40:49think of all the examples he used a word
0:40:52a buzzword that he apologized for using
0:40:55I detected a best-of-breed best-of-breed
0:40:59yeah i used it yet so yeah use that but
0:41:02at least copy of that with st. by saying
0:41:05that he hated it right eye and he there
0:41:07was one other sort of buzz worthy thing
0:41:09that he used that I would you know I
0:41:11mean it's stupid to do this but I didn't
0:41:13I thought what will if that was
0:41:15something that jobs would have said but
0:41:18then the other i was pleased that he
0:41:20hears the word crappy been talking about
0:41:25we're talking about keyboards on
0:41:26netbooks and I thought that was it seems
0:41:31you know I you know I'd look for a
0:41:35little clues about his is characterized
0:41:37guess yeah just to see what kind of guy
0:41:39is yeah i guess that is the interesting
0:41:41thing one of the interesting things
0:41:42about him is that he is a bit of a
0:41:44cipher and I felt like the interview you
0:41:46know the what's his name Josh I want to
0:41:48give him credit because he didn't yeah
0:41:49yeah i i'm not a triangle is kind of got
0:41:55like a harder and we'll just call josh
0:41:57Josh to wrangle Randall gossamer Angeles
0:42:03yes for you're the perfect person to try
0:42:06and figure out how to pronounce this
0:42:07name yeah we go we should go like grade
0:42:12school style just call Josh t just ed
0:42:15yeah
0:42:16mr. Josh yeah yeah brother John's in
0:42:18your in your class growing up
0:42:20oh yeah sure yeah we had three jon was
0:42:23touch-and-go China why is John not a
0:42:25popular name anymore it's a great name
0:42:27it's the best name I I was crazy to put
0:42:30a grill oh man I think Johnson invest
0:42:33John Adams got some great people but
0:42:38John Kennedy and it's a great name
0:42:41anyway but we had to we had three we had
0:42:43janji I was yours truly jaunty John are
0:42:47huh
0:42:48I wondered always wondered what we
0:42:51didn't do that had if you had two at the
0:42:53same initial ya i dont no matter how we
0:42:55would have a despite their to fight it
0:42:57out
0:42:57yeah they put it up put them in a pit
0:42:59with a couple of sticks pointed sticks
0:43:01and let him go now I diet so no I always
0:43:05just I mean I mean not at that age and
0:43:08grade school age but I just eventually
0:43:10became bolts right so yeah same here
0:43:12i've always been molds
0:43:13yeah I've always been groomed yeah I let
0:43:18me do take a break and read a sponsor
0:43:20yet with one big sponsor this week it's
0:43:22talks coffee
0:43:23oh yeah ever heard of the tongues I've
0:43:25heard of the talks it's it's the best
0:43:29ah it's a great gift now I got it I got
0:43:32some some correction from last week it
0:43:35was i was talking in Maryland and I said
0:43:37you know you can you know maybe this
0:43:39idea of giving somebody a subscription
0:43:41to a thing that comes in the mail maybe
0:43:42it's you know got a bad rap as a holiday
0:43:44gift because of the the Christmas
0:43:46vacation I think I said that he got the
0:43:49cake of the Month Club my it's a beloved
0:43:52holiday classic my wife and my son were
0:43:54both appalled that I didn't remember
0:43:56what Clark got from the park Griswold
0:43:59got from his boss was it a subscription
0:44:01to the jelly of the month club and how I
0:44:04and that his cousin Eddie said it's the
0:44:07gift that keeps on giving
0:44:09I will talks coffee as a gift idea for
0:44:12the holidays it's the real deal though
0:44:13because it's not some shitty jelly
0:44:16it's it is the best coffee in the world
0:44:21like you're giving somebody something
0:44:22that they're actually going to use is
0:44:24presuming that you've got someone in
0:44:25your friend or family who drinks coffee
0:44:28and if they don't drink coffee
0:44:29I mean what's wrong with because it just
0:44:31came out the other thing it just came
0:44:33out last week that the more coffee you
0:44:35drink the better you are
0:44:36I don't know that's what I took four ya
0:44:37know that it's not the demonstrable be
0:44:41true right there was some kind of study
0:44:43came out that drinking copious amounts
0:44:45of coffee is on the whole good for your
0:44:47health
0:44:48yeah and it's integral zoomed up being a
0:44:50good you're writing a good weblog right
0:44:52now exactly i mean it's it's what you
0:44:55know what and somebody else pointed out
0:44:56to me that on twitter that they said
0:45:01good piece on the daily but you missed
0:45:03what was surely the core of their
0:45:05failure that they obviously did not have
0:45:07I over-caffeinated fizzy water
0:45:10over-caffeinated over fizzy water and it
0:45:15was carbonated carbonated over
0:45:17carbonated fizzy water fussy coffee and
0:45:20clicking keyboard they were must have
0:45:22been missing at least one and A three
0:45:23possibly all three probably all 3i
0:45:25probably all three given out what it was
0:45:28but those are my keys to success on the
0:45:31internet / kappa / carbonated water
0:45:33policy delicious coffee and clicking
0:45:36keyboards
0:45:37yeah i would put the coffee first
0:45:39frankly I mean I'd if I can we have one
0:45:41of the 3i would we put the coffee first
0:45:44I could get my work done with the shitty
0:45:46keyboard and with flat water or juice or
0:45:48something like that
0:45:49not really sure how I didn't get
0:45:51anything going without the coffee honks
0:45:53is the best they get it from all over
0:45:54the world it is it it's great coffee and
0:45:57if you're lazy like me you don't have to
0:45:59leave the house I mean it fits right in
0:46:01with your piece in the magazine you
0:46:03don't have to go anywhere right you've
0:46:04got a poly you can get deliveries come
0:46:06into your office right you've got like a
0:46:08policy there with the wife
0:46:09so the tongues qualified under the door
0:46:11comes right in I up through december 16
0:46:15you can order in time for the holidays
0:46:18go to talks dot-org t 0 NX dot 0 RG sign
0:46:23up you get a free sample for yourself
0:46:24it's a great gift idea if you don't have
0:46:27the talk to everybody should have the
0:46:29tongs hide
0:46:30don't understand why some people haven't
0:46:32signed up for yet really thanks to them
0:46:34for their continuing support of the talk
0:46:35show this is my thing for Christmas that
0:46:38for myself that I'm I'm trying to trying
0:46:41to arrange is to up my coffee game
0:46:44yeah and i think this is going to be an
0:46:46integral integral part of this because I
0:46:48I got on my on my Amazon wish list is
0:46:51the air be aeropress yeah and I gotta
0:46:54get I gotta organize and I'm switching
0:46:57to talks to
0:46:58I when I was out for the the show that I
0:47:02did in Los Angeles with the sandwich and
0:47:06ryan Johnson and looper director couple
0:47:08shows ago because we did that we did
0:47:10that show right there in the same with
0:47:11studios there in Los Angeles one of the
0:47:15guys who works with Adam there it's at
0:47:17sandwich video JP volunteer to to make
0:47:21me a cup of coffee and I I was not
0:47:22familiar with the aeropress and of
0:47:24course there was talk because I believe
0:47:26they're not sure if I can say this but I
0:47:28think they're working on a sandwich
0:47:30video for talks haha so they're you know
0:47:33they're it's all part of the talks
0:47:35family and he made me the aeropress cup
0:47:37of coffee and it really was one of those
0:47:39like pulp fiction moments of like a damn
0:47:41that's good yeah I like wow like it
0:47:48really kind of like set me off like I
0:47:50lost my train of thought it's like this
0:47:51is making really really delicious
0:47:54the other thing too that's fun about
0:47:56getting into copy you can really kind of
0:47:58nerd out on it and it's it's not
0:48:00expensive you know like you're not you
0:48:02know they like I'm always afraid I don't
0:48:04I never drink wine because I'm afraid
0:48:05that if i get into it all of a sudden
0:48:07I'm buying $85 bottles and I I I don't
0:48:10want to get into something like that you
0:48:12know i mean like all you need is boiled
0:48:14water and coffee beans
0:48:17yeah right you can get like a nice
0:48:19little fussy cattle and it's you know
0:48:23what's what's a teakettle cost doesn't
0:48:24cost a lot of money and are not like get
0:48:26into some kind of thing where you're
0:48:27can't pay your amex every month I want
0:48:33to get one of you should have you should
0:48:34not have to do that I want to get a
0:48:36teakettle that has the long skinny spout
0:48:39have you seen that like this seems like
0:48:41all the real that that's the way you
0:48:42make fun of
0:48:43yeah it's got like a real skinny spot
0:48:45mine has a big fat spout that's like you
0:48:48know it's just like it unfussy tea
0:48:50kettle or no water kettle whatever you
0:48:52want to call it and I feel like I got it
0:48:54I got it up my teakettle game under tim
0:48:59cook drinks coffee that's it i would bet
0:49:04he seems like i don't know i don't know
0:49:07i would hope so
0:49:08yeah I don't know I say eats a lot of
0:49:11energy bars is that used to be the other
0:49:15thing that was in all the profiles of
0:49:16that easy gets in early leave late I he
0:49:21eats a lot of it eats a lot of energy
0:49:26bars Steve Jobs never would have eaten
0:49:29energy bars you know one of the other
0:49:32things company in decline
0:49:37actually I one of the little things i
0:49:41noticed in the article was a day and
0:49:44this time unless i skipped it they never
0:49:46actually got back to talking about John
0:49:48Browett noise no I don't think you did
0:49:51it like he really just focused on for
0:49:54stolen glossed over brown right it's
0:49:57this whole thing here with forestall and
0:50:00a big explanation which is really I
0:50:02think about as open as they were going
0:50:03to get about you know what was going on
0:50:06there i really do mean you know i mean
0:50:08obviously not going to get into
0:50:09specifics I any you know kind of went
0:50:13out of his way
0:50:14euphemistically not to mention forestall
0:50:16my name as i get gentleman's agreement
0:50:18all of this i who had the podcast where
0:50:23they were talking about the severance
0:50:27agreements think it was siracusa going
0:50:29on on hypercritical when I wanted first
0:50:32broke and he was talking about these
0:50:35there's like a term for these type of
0:50:37agreements it's like a gardeners clause
0:50:43or something like that a guard gardening
0:50:45severance or something like that and
0:50:46they really it's a tradition
0:50:49I you know what he said I had forgets
0:50:55for something like that but the gist of
0:50:56it is it's like an old term from
0:50:57england and the gist of it is that it's
0:50:58in the contract that the company if we
0:51:01decide to get rid of you we can pay you
0:51:03this gardeners thing where you just
0:51:06going to stay at home and garden garden
0:51:08but you're going to be on the payroll at
0:51:10your regular salary for a year but we
0:51:11don't want you to even come into the
0:51:13office come it but we're gonna but we
0:51:16don't want you to go to a competitor
0:51:18you know I tried to get one of those
0:51:20four years in its own little bit finally
0:51:23just got to quit
0:51:25it's one of those things where when you
0:51:26get to a certain level of achievement
0:51:27everything it's like it must be nice you
0:51:30know what I mean yeah you know what they
0:51:32call golden parachutes solution right I
0:51:35normal people when you get fired you
0:51:37know you know yeah you just get fired
0:51:39you get weeks right you get like two
0:51:42weeks of pay you get maybe if you're
0:51:44lucky you get four weeks of pay
0:51:45no I you know like when you reach the
0:51:49executive level and you get fired you
0:51:52get tens of millions of dollars that's
0:51:54right you know and i don't mean the lab
0:51:58I really don't mean like that sometimes
0:51:59I worry about things like I just think
0:52:01like it like I don't think Scott
0:52:03Forstall listens to the talk show but
0:52:05the odds that he listens to the talk
0:52:07show it's definitely somewhere above
0:52:08zero right i mean is maybe it's one
0:52:11percent chance right and so I I always
0:52:14sometimes I think like I don't want to
0:52:15sit here and God you know maybe he's at
0:52:17home you know what gardening right bored
0:52:19out of his mind
0:52:20Jesus Christ and listen to podcasts and
0:52:22then here we are laughing about the fact
0:52:24that he got fired I mean I don't I
0:52:25really don't mean to make light of it
0:52:27now i really do think you know in a way
0:52:29I think that there's a good sad story
0:52:31there where I think that this is a guy
0:52:33who's been taken away from his life's
0:52:35work and I I mean this without any I I'm
0:52:39not making fun of trying to be serious
0:52:41here
0:52:41uh but you know it's not like the guys
0:52:45just get a better
0:52:48yeah he doesn't have to his family
0:52:50doesn't have to switch to the store
0:52:51brand cornflakes was it seems like I
0:52:56mean you know a guy like that he's gonna
0:52:57he's gonna do something else
0:52:59I mean he's gonna he's gonna land on the
0:53:01speed and it's not gonna be alright
0:53:03sitting around in his bathroom right
0:53:06watching Washington watching his shows
0:53:10for a couple years just watch it'll keep
0:53:12cycling into a spiral of cruising
0:53:15congressional Bill's got there was one
0:53:19about you and like we would like he's
0:53:24already talking and you know he's
0:53:26already out there talking to people like
0:53:27figuring out what the next things right
0:53:29there's a reason that he got to be the
0:53:31senior vice yeah exactly right you gotta
0:53:33get ready clawed his way up there but
0:53:35probably murdered a bunch of people to
0:53:37get there he's gonna going to do it
0:53:40again
0:53:40god I really don't want to think about
0:53:42what how i would do something really but
0:53:45he stepped in and took took your blog
0:53:48away right
0:53:49yeah sorry the word there's nothing
0:53:52you're done every once in a while I like
0:53:54what I see words and I the word I'm
0:53:57seeing right now it's is in big big
0:54:01future of bold all caps says
0:54:03intervention haha but yea yea trip to
0:54:13the health clinic didn't do you have a
0:54:16do you have a martini glasses in your
0:54:18bathroom like we do
0:54:19look at that hey last night's martini
0:54:22glasses that ya know
0:54:25okay good you still got a ways to go
0:54:29then
0:54:30ya gotta catch up i want to be there but
0:54:35i keep up with the multiples
0:54:36yeah I won't say that I don't
0:54:38occasionally lose one where various just
0:54:42don't take it into the bathroom with the
0:54:47other thing i noticed in the same
0:54:48segment so he did they never actually
0:54:49get back to talking about John brow it
0:54:51just seems like that was just like only
0:54:54ever I me and he barely talked about all
0:54:56I honestly though in a sense though if I
0:54:58had it if there's one complaint of my
0:55:00complaints one of the things that
0:55:01occurred to me and i don't think i don't
0:55:03know I I feel like I'm only good at
0:55:06finding these things afterwards i'm not
0:55:07saying I would have done a better job if
0:55:09Apple and said look you want an hour
0:55:10with tim cook and I've of course would
0:55:12have said yes but I don't know that I
0:55:14would have done a better job than this
0:55:15guy i really don't
0:55:16yeah because I just start drawing blanks
0:55:19I'm not good
0:55:20I i think very very slowly and I think
0:55:22to be an interview
0:55:23you got to think fast but it occurs to
0:55:24me though that I would have liked him to
0:55:26go back to browse because the browser
0:55:28thing to me is all on cook right like
0:55:32the the forestall situation is obviously
0:55:34been simmering literally for a decade
0:55:36right i mean force that's been there for
0:55:38ya
0:55:39I and you're as proud as something where
0:55:41he at you know he brought him in and add
0:55:44a turnaround shown the door right the
0:55:46whole thing with ron johnson leaving
0:55:48happened after Jobs died I you know and
0:55:52there's and I who knows whether there's
0:55:53any truth to return I think it's
0:55:54ridiculous but there's some speculation
0:55:56that that that Johnson wanted the CEO
0:55:59job at apple and that if you know when
0:56:01it was curtains gonna go to cook with
0:56:02any was out because there was no that
0:56:04doesn't seem that he doesn't seem like a
0:56:07good fit he doesn't it doesn't seem like
0:56:08it would have to be in the cards that
0:56:09the readouts guy would ever rise you
0:56:12know that if you know you can in theory
0:56:14you could see it like Johnny I've the
0:56:16design guy if he wanted to be CEO that
0:56:19you
0:56:19you know it wouldn't play if they said
0:56:21hey you know hooks retiring jony ive's
0:56:24the new CEO i think that would play I I
0:56:27think Schiller would play you know sure
0:56:29and i and I've said this before it many
0:56:33times that he's you know what people
0:56:35think of his marketing is not what Apple
0:56:37thinks of his marketing he's not just in
0:56:39charge of ads you know and and stuff
0:56:41like that if you know what sugar does it
0:56:44would totally play that he could be the
0:56:45CEO like the the retail guy no matter
0:56:47how good their retail is it just doesn't
0:56:50play but anyway he did leave after Jobs
0:56:53was gone and so the whole thing of how
0:56:55do we replace ron johnson and keep the
0:56:57retail thing going was all on cook and
0:57:00it was you know as soon as it was
0:57:01announced everybody who is familiar with
0:57:03that those shitty stores that Brown ran
0:57:05in England I forget what they were
0:57:09called but everybody in the UK the
0:57:11announces and everybody in the UK who
0:57:12knew was like what the hell is Apple
0:57:14doing this customers suck
0:57:16yeah they're like the whole reason the
0:57:18apple stores are successful there like
0:57:19the anti apple stores and I was like
0:57:22well I don't know maybe the guy you know
0:57:24right that's what I thought too i was so
0:57:25I wanted to give you the benefit of the
0:57:27doubt
0:57:28right i thought well maybe in turns out
0:57:29I was wrong no it turns out that the
0:57:32snap judgment from the people in England
0:57:33was exactly right
0:57:35I the guys like a hack which seems weird
0:57:38yeah just seems weird I kinda feel like
0:57:39if you got Tim cooked in front of you
0:57:41and you can ask him about it i feel like
0:57:43you know you something along the lines
0:57:46of look disguise stores in England he
0:57:48came from these stories that are unlike
0:57:49apples
0:57:50yeah what did you see that you thought
0:57:53might be right exactly right i think
0:57:56that would explain that initial decision
0:57:57right I feel like he could have held his
0:57:59feet to the fire their eyebrows a little
0:58:01bit where ya forestall thing you know
0:58:03they did cover it well but he didn't get
0:58:04back to proud I guess they think that
0:58:06that's the four-star things more
0:58:08interesting but and I can see that but
0:58:11it also in a way it's more interesting
0:58:15to figure out what happened with brown
0:58:16like how that does that went wrong right
0:58:19and I kind of feel like you know if
0:58:21there is like a you know like you said
0:58:22earlier like looking for chinks in the
0:58:25armor and yeah and yeah I could that
0:58:27would seem like a bigger one than I then
0:58:30the forestall situation right and I
0:58:32wonder about the you know it's obviously
0:58:35mostly speculative we don't know the
0:58:37internal but the speculation is that we
0:58:39do know that cook is a big numbers guy
0:58:41and he's an operations guy and you know
0:58:44we know that that some of the things
0:58:46that this proud guy did when he was in
0:58:48charge of apple retail seemed sort of
0:58:51operationally you know like cognac hours
0:58:54doing those tricks where you get you
0:58:55know make sure nobody gets more than 37
0:58:59and a half hours he taunted him his
0:59:00full-time employees and stuff like that
0:59:03anyway stuff that made the employees
0:59:05that wasn't good for the employees and
0:59:07sort of put like a if gone in that
0:59:10direction would make the stores the
0:59:11worst experience but and a bean counter
0:59:15level seemingly makes sense you know
0:59:17makes sense if you're looking at the
0:59:19store through an Excel spreadsheet
0:59:20instead of actually being in the store I
0:59:24and that's sort of like the fear with
0:59:27cook right that he's the numbers guy
0:59:29that he's gonna start running the
0:59:31company in a numbers focused way
0:59:34yeah right as opposed to Steve Jobs who
0:59:38you know he like came in and he was mad
0:59:41at the first stores opened up and he was
0:59:42pissed about like the scuff marks on the
0:59:44floors and
0:59:47so he like I don't know if you went to
0:59:49himself what the story is but they like
0:59:51went to Venice and got like some kind of
0:59:53like you can only get it in the Venice
0:59:55granite stone that they polished certain
0:59:59way
0:59:59way
1:00:00to make this that's how I that's what
1:00:01we're going to use for the floors from
1:00:03now on
1:00:03yeah right doesn't make any financial
1:00:05sense at all
1:00:07goddammit get some hot wax right but
1:00:11just goddamn band the floors are nice
1:00:13some italian yacht wax shiny floors up
1:00:18I i like the story about him talking to
1:00:23steve about being about taking over
1:00:25yeah and trying trying to fight right
1:00:28now but were eventually he kept asking
1:00:33him like you know is which one because
1:00:35he was going to jobs is gonna becomes
1:00:37chairman of the board and cook would be
1:00:41CEO right is that the way that is
1:00:43correct
1:00:44yeah and then he kept asking manager
1:00:45sure this is what you were doing it and
1:00:48finally he said I'm sure stop asking
1:00:51he all right now this is really you know
1:00:55is one of the best I I didn't want a
1:00:57block quote because it was a guy I
1:01:01didn't want to spoil it in the article
1:01:03its its way at the bottom so via the
1:01:04internet any of you out there started
1:01:06reading this long interview and cut got
1:01:07halfway to really stick with it I mean
1:01:09that's good
1:01:10here's the here's the party says this is
1:01:16cook talking one weekend he called me
1:01:18and he said I'd like to talk to you this
1:01:20was in the summer of 11 I said fine when
1:01:23and typical Steve fashion is it now
1:01:26great and write a typical so I go over
1:01:29to his house and i still remember how he
1:01:31started this discussion said there has
1:01:32never been a professional transition at
1:01:35the CEO level and apple he said our
1:01:37company has done a lot of great things
1:01:38but it's never done this one last guy is
1:01:40always fired and then someone new comes
1:01:42in he goes I want there to be a
1:01:44professional CEO transition and I've
1:01:47decided and i'm recommending to the
1:01:48board that you be the CEO i'm going to
1:01:51be the chairman and it goes on it's
1:01:54really good that's you know
1:02:00I hope they help their able to keep up
1:02:04crazy stories like this
1:02:08yeah you know even the hook jobs going
1:02:11but she's just like and I don't know how
1:02:14you do that because it's like it's
1:02:16little stuff like that that makes it i
1:02:19mean her love stories like that and
1:02:21having worked at a company
1:02:22those are those are always the best I
1:02:25mean you just if you have a story like
1:02:27that it part in a really it sounds
1:02:29stupid but it actually helps build the
1:02:31culture of the company
1:02:32yeah if you can tell crazy stories are
1:02:36just great nutty things about the
1:02:38executives and stuff that's fun not you
1:02:40know people get yeah well I mean it's
1:02:43also kind of fun to hear about people
1:02:44getting fired in the elevator but
1:02:45there's the old one about cook the one
1:02:48and you know you don't hear these
1:02:50stories angle but there's the one about
1:02:51their something was going wrong in China
1:02:54and need one he said you pointed to the
1:02:57one guy heating and said okay you're the
1:02:59one that fix it and then like five
1:03:01minutes later looked up and said what
1:03:02are you still doing here and the guy got
1:03:05really good one
1:03:06any guy got haywire like dinner still on
1:03:09a plane right he did he touch with that
1:03:11they said the guy did though he didn't
1:03:13even go home he liked guys car cook told
1:03:15his wife I gotta go to China and he just
1:03:17drove drunk in san jose airport and
1:03:19booked a ticket to China will buy some
1:03:22clothes there right yeah it probably
1:03:24cheap
1:03:25yeah guys like spend two weeks in China
1:03:30where like ill-fitting clothing that
1:03:34jumpsuit
1:03:36ok i'll get one at the factory yeah
1:03:39there anything else going on this week
1:03:43terrific five came out yeah I'm gotten
1:03:48yet but well as I do i do enjoy the
1:03:51terrific is that you're using your
1:03:53twitter client of choice i go back and
1:03:55forth and i used to use but I do use
1:03:59both these Tweetbot and twitterrific
1:04:00yeah it's really and on and on iOS is
1:04:04both yeah it's really good and I kind of
1:04:06feel like they're they're doing a
1:04:08skating to where the puck is going to be
1:04:12thing with the aesthetics
1:04:14of the app is that it's it i know that
1:04:19the whole skeuomorphism thing it's such
1:04:21an overused word and it means more than
1:04:24just the textures right that like and
1:04:28and that it was an interview with Lauren
1:04:30Richter of letterpress fame with erica
1:04:33OGG by Erica eigen you go on this week
1:04:36he mentioned it that skeuomorphism is
1:04:39more than just the visual textures and
1:04:41putting sticks leather it's the things
1:04:43like when you've turned a page and it
1:04:45looks like a piece of paper as you turn
1:04:47the page whether it's good or bad it's
1:04:48you know it's more than just what it
1:04:50looks like but I feel like twitterrific
1:04:53is this new version 5 is going in this
1:04:56opposite direction of just talking about
1:05:00the textures and stuff like that sort of
1:05:02taking them all out and and going in
1:05:05this minimalist flat
1:05:06yeah the least chrome you can get away
1:05:10with and you know it Windows 8 is
1:05:16obviously in that direction but this
1:05:17doesn't look anything you know there's
1:05:19no one way to do it if you know what I
1:05:20mean yeah it's a similar concept but
1:05:23it's but it's um it's nicer in the same
1:05:26way that like is well here's a good
1:05:31example like the difference between
1:05:32apples aqua interface and the windows
1:05:36vista interface which were both largely
1:05:39based on this sort of plasticky
1:05:41translucency glass shadows transparency
1:05:46sort of aesthetic you can go very
1:05:48different ways with it what I one can
1:05:50look pretty good in one can
1:05:52yeah and look like you know you got it
1:05:53came yeah I there's different ways to do
1:05:56minimalism 2i and I kind of feel like I
1:06:00do kind of feel like that's what Jony
1:06:02ive has been talking about like when is
1:06:03little hints about the aesthetics of the
1:06:07OS you know and edited the little sort
1:06:09of knows quickly made when the guy from
1:06:11The Guardian asked him about it was the
1:06:13guardian whoever it was asked him about
1:06:14this stitched leather you know that is
1:06:17not really being true to the hardware
1:06:18twitterrific 5i think is a really
1:06:21interesting example of that I kind of
1:06:23feel like like like I contractor has
1:06:25jumped ahead
1:06:27of this state-of-the-art for athletics
1:06:29letterpress is another example of that
1:06:34you play the last y'all
1:06:35yeah you have we played yet we have not
1:06:38played now we probably should
1:06:39oh man that should be like my new rule
1:06:41for getting people on the show we gotta
1:06:42plan to play the letterpress yeah but
1:06:47yea letterpress is another example of
1:06:49that and that's you know that's where it
1:06:50came up in Laurens interview with Erica
1:06:53you know that there's obviously this
1:06:55minimalist death aesthetic on but it
1:07:01doesn't mean undesigned right there's
1:07:03it's harder to explain because when
1:07:05something is like a visual texture that
1:07:08design jumps right out at you where is
1:07:10it's more about the subtleties
1:07:12yeah like but when you move tiles around
1:07:15and letterpress it's not like there's
1:07:16nothing going on there's something very
1:07:18fancy going on where it's sort of
1:07:20jiggles in and it says jaunty little and
1:07:23even when you fire it up and it does
1:07:24that little that little rotating yeah
1:07:26thingamabob whatever it is
1:07:28yeah you know what that is its that's
1:07:31the eight bits logo
1:07:32oh that's right it's eight minutes right
1:07:36and the way it rotates is it goes seven
1:07:39times clockwise and then that the eighth
1:07:42goes counterclockwise and I will go
1:07:44seven clockwise for the inside sounds
1:07:49like the thing from Indiana Jones what
1:07:52will take one take one back 500 got one
1:07:56back Ilana yeah exactly
1:07:59they're digging in the wrong place i
1:08:01gotta play in leather place but anyway
1:08:03letterpress is another example and again
1:08:04letterpress and twitterrific five are
1:08:07both super super distinctive don't look
1:08:10anything at all like each other really
1:08:11except that there's a sort of Shh
1:08:15I don't know there's something to its
1:08:17kinda hard to talk about but I feel like
1:08:18there's like a shared sense of this is
1:08:20where you sensibility yeah yeah and I
1:08:24really think that they did good work
1:08:26ethic I feel like congratulations to all
1:08:30our friends that
1:08:31yeah an apple seems to get that kind of
1:08:34me when there was nothing in the
1:08:35interview was that he was talking about
1:08:37sort of a whole held up an iphone i
1:08:39guess this was in the
1:08:40the maybe the scene with the in the NBC
1:08:43interview
1:08:44yeah and he held up the iphone and
1:08:45talked about with Rocco see how the face
1:08:51of it is the operating system I forget
1:08:54exactly what he said but just that it
1:08:57you know and we've talked about this
1:08:59before but now it's just it's like a
1:09:00glass and you just have a glass front
1:09:02and then you're interacting with the
1:09:04operating system right there and that's
1:09:05the that's their design ethic right so I
1:09:16say we call it show all right i want to
1:09:18say one thing I never mentioned this is
1:09:20one thing I just don't mention it hears
1:09:21that I want to talk about the the
1:09:22sponsorship anybody out there listens to
1:09:24the show you got a product or service
1:09:26that you think the talk show audience
1:09:28would be interested in
1:09:29I get in touch i don't really have a
1:09:31good mechanism for this I have a really
1:09:33nice little page for during fireball
1:09:34sponsorships people go there and they
1:09:36can see the schedule and there's a
1:09:38little email address i don't have
1:09:39anything like that for the talk show i
1:09:40feel like its it i don't know i gotta
1:09:44set something up but in the meantime
1:09:45just go to the daring fireball
1:09:47sponsorship page go to during fireball
1:09:49click on sponsorships just click the
1:09:50email there and tell me that you want to
1:09:52sponsor the talk show instead of daring
1:09:54fireball on but I've got some good guess
1:09:57already lined up not molt's good guess
1:09:59for the next couple of episodes and
1:10:04there's a couple of sponsorship spots
1:10:05open on all of them so anybody out there
1:10:08you got a product or service that that
1:10:10you want this this audience to know
1:10:12about get in touch now most thank you
1:10:15very much for being so yeah
1:10:17oh you're welcome the best