The Talk Show

30: Buy High, Sell Low, with Marco Arment


00:00:00   this is a this is a special evening

00:00:02   edition of the talk show i guess this

00:00:05   week

00:00:06   Marco Arment why are you doing this

00:00:10   element again I'm trying to was so nice

00:00:14   i just felt so welcome when settlement

00:00:16   did that sound like you're sick i know i

00:00:19   can't do it i guess i don't know so i

00:00:22   think i've joined your club of people

00:00:25   who don't own any apple shares directly

00:00:26   you did own it before

00:00:28   until today I owned a good amount of

00:00:30   weight so you sold the hey I did

00:00:33   oh sounds crazy I know why I've sell oh

00:00:39   well I've I've been really good at

00:00:42   knowing when to buy I I really haven't

00:00:44   mastered the art of when to sell yet but

00:00:46   I have no I over the last couple years

00:00:48   of accumulated shares based on just like

00:00:50   putting a little bit of money into this

00:00:52   into my gambling fund every every month

00:00:54   or so and and just knowing when to buy

00:00:56   so i picked them up really cheap so i

00:00:59   came out actually pretty pretty ahead of

00:01:02   my average price is very low

00:01:03   it was like four of six or something

00:01:05   like that and i was waiting until

00:01:09   earnings call day figuring that they

00:01:11   would be a spike after the holiday

00:01:13   earnings call like there was last year

00:01:16   remember correctly that holiday orange

00:01:18   would be so good i'd figured there be a

00:01:20   spike and then i'd probably sell it all

00:01:22   cuz i kind of want to get out of owning

00:01:24   individual stocks I'm not I'm not that

00:01:27   great at it like I haven't haven't lost

00:01:30   any money with it overall but i haven't

00:01:32   made enough to make it worth the hassle

00:01:33   and i found that owning it was was

00:01:37   making it hard for me to objectively see

00:01:40   what's going on you know because it adds

00:01:43   it adds a lot of skin in the game for me

00:01:44   and I don't know if it's colored my my

00:01:48   opinion but I think it might've and so I

00:01:51   just wanted to get out of that for a lot

00:01:52   of the same reasons you said you don't

00:01:53   own individual shares also and you have

00:01:55   a bigger problem of course of possibly

00:01:57   being able to affect it

00:01:58   i don't--that's problem but but i might

00:02:00   someday you know that's the main thing

00:02:03   for me but it's actually a good point

00:02:05   that you make though about it

00:02:06   coloring your

00:02:07   objectivity you know I hate that word

00:02:10   but you know that when you personally

00:02:13   have skin in the game when it's your

00:02:14   money it's right there is more of an

00:02:15   emotional attachment and you know I

00:02:17   can't honestly say i don't have any

00:02:19   emotional attachment to apples success

00:02:22   in general period but not owning the

00:02:26   stock individually certainly makes that

00:02:28   easier so i sold today at like 462 which

00:02:35   is good i actually went down now it's a

00:02:37   440 heat already

00:02:39   the reason i sold was because you know

00:02:42   last night of course it took a huge dip

00:02:44   after the run for released and and and

00:02:46   and some other people were disappointed

00:02:47   and and I realized that you know if this

00:02:51   was this is probably going to be for

00:02:54   Apple investor purposes the best news

00:02:56   day for the next six months in all

00:02:59   likelihood and the fact that it took

00:03:03   that big of a dive on what's probably

00:03:05   the best news day and for a while

00:03:08   that scared me and so I i feel you know

00:03:12   what let me get out now if I really want

00:03:14   to get back in a later date

00:03:16   I'll get back in on the upswing you know

00:03:17   I didn't want it i was tired of writing

00:03:20   it down and you know cuz i always feel

00:03:23   like buying individual stocks as a

00:03:26   casual investors kind of a sucker's game

00:03:28   like the whole system there's there's

00:03:30   all these big investors are so much

00:03:31   bigger than us and all these

00:03:33   complexities and derivatives and options

00:03:35   and everything that are just way above

00:03:37   my head and I just felt kind of like a

00:03:40   sucker playing this game so i wanted to

00:03:42   get out figured this was a good time and

00:03:44   I figure you know cuz what's going to

00:03:46   happen over the next few months of the

00:03:47   stock price i don't see a lot of reasons

00:03:49   for it to go up if it went down for this

00:03:51   you know so I don't know that being said

00:03:54   of course disclaimer this is not

00:03:55   financial advice that I don't learn

00:03:56   talking about but you know I student now

00:04:00   that I got out of it I kind of already

00:04:01   feel free from that burden of having to

00:04:05   think about that having to babysit that

00:04:07   asset and one of the things about it is

00:04:09   you know for objectivity you know for me

00:04:15   I don't

00:04:16   have to now worried about what everyone

00:04:18   else thinks about Apple because with the

00:04:21   when you own the stock you have to worry

00:04:24   about the public as a whole like voting

00:04:26   for that company at with confidence or

00:04:29   the wall street voting with their

00:04:30   confidence in this company right and

00:04:32   we've seen time and time again I mean

00:04:34   you can make this your specialty time

00:04:37   and time again seeing that these odd

00:04:39   disconnects between actual apple

00:04:42   prospects and products and success and

00:04:45   what a lot of people in the press think

00:04:47   about it and I'm just so tired of having

00:04:50   to worry about that disconnect as

00:04:53   something that will directly affect me

00:04:55   so that's that's the biggest reason I

00:04:57   wanted to get out was that I realized

00:04:59   that I can be happy

00:05:01   owning apple products developing the act

00:05:03   in the apple ecosystem you know being

00:05:05   involved with Apple choosing these

00:05:07   things for myself without regard to what

00:05:10   the market as a whole thinks because

00:05:12   they're so often so far from what I

00:05:14   think

00:05:16   yeah i totally feel the same way I don't

00:05:19   have any regrets over not owning apple

00:05:21   stock and especially like for example I

00:05:24   I even linked to a thing today pointing

00:05:28   out that from 2007-2009 that the apple

00:05:31   stock took a huge dive and proud of that

00:05:33   obviously was that the whole economy was

00:05:35   in tailspin with the you know financial

00:05:37   institutions collapse but if ever there

00:05:39   was a time when like if the argument now

00:05:42   is that the reason that Apple stock is

00:05:45   is going down and has gone down so

00:05:47   severely last few months is that the

00:05:49   growth is over growth growth growth

00:05:51   future growth future growth is all that

00:05:53   matters is what the people who are

00:05:55   saying no no that the market is actually

00:05:57   treating apple right and i'm the fan boy

00:06:00   whose you know digging for an excuse to

00:06:03   support my beloved Apple well then

00:06:06   surely 2008-2009 with time when the

00:06:11   stock should have been roaring because

00:06:12   all the growth was ahead of it right the

00:06:14   the iphone was out it was obviously

00:06:16   going to grow it was anybody had two

00:06:19   clues about what was going on mobile you

00:06:22   know could see that this thing had a

00:06:24   unbelievably tremendous future and what

00:06:27   probably not that far off from Steve

00:06:30   Jobs boasts that it was five years ahead

00:06:31   of the competition right 2000 circuit

00:06:33   2007a android was I think everybody

00:06:37   would agree now is dog shit

00:06:38   oh yeah I'm the people who bought it

00:06:40   like I like what back then i would go to

00:06:42   Alzheimer's investor things and so of

00:06:44   course all the investors always have the

00:06:45   brand newest phone possible and so I'm i

00:06:48   remember the first time I saw the

00:06:50   tmobile was the g1 the first android

00:06:52   phone yeah that was a brown or am i

00:06:54   think it was relaxed

00:06:55   that's the soon yeah it was it wasn't

00:06:58   you know the black like you know it's

00:06:59   like able to hang and yeah it was weird

00:07:02   and even even this guy who just bought

00:07:04   it was so happy to show off his oh yeah

00:07:06   it's a piece of trash even he knew that

00:07:08   I must have I think it was at south by

00:07:11   southwest and so it might have been i

00:07:15   think that that that g one came out at

00:07:18   the end of 2008 so it was probably March

00:07:20   2009 so again nice i think 2008-2009 is

00:07:24   when if if growth was really what the

00:07:27   market value future growth then that's

00:07:30   when that stock should have been

00:07:31   shooting up and wasn't I Merlin Mann had

00:07:34   one and swore by it i don't know how

00:07:37   long he's 12

00:07:38   yeah I swear to God and I remember this

00:07:40   distinctly it'sit's South by Southwest

00:07:42   2009 and it's daytime mean I was

00:07:47   probably late afternoon private cocktail

00:07:48   but i mean i still remember it was

00:07:50   daytime because it was at the four

00:07:52   seasons in austin and four seasons as a

00:07:55   lot of Windows and so I like times that

00:07:58   I'm there they've been there in the

00:07:59   daylight I remember it being daytime and

00:08:02   it was me and Merlin and Michael lop and

00:08:06   I've never seen that the g1 before

00:08:09   Merlin showed it to me and it was just

00:08:10   so awful and and michael looked at and

00:08:15   Michael was so repulsed like he didn't

00:08:16   even want to touch it

00:08:17   I mean he was like really like grossed

00:08:19   out like like maybe he acted honestly he

00:08:22   was he was trying to not be you know how

00:08:25   like if your ear as an adult not as a

00:08:27   kid but as an adult if you go somewhere

00:08:29   you served some food that you're not

00:08:30   going to eat you're just gonna go move

00:08:32   it around your plate and not say

00:08:33   anything and just be polite about it but

00:08:35   you know

00:08:35   that's what Michael was like he was like

00:08:38   moving around this plate like but there

00:08:40   is no way he was gonna actually try it

00:08:41   and Merlin was given us this explanation

00:08:44   for what he found appealing about it and

00:08:46   you know I think it has something to do

00:08:47   with gmail that you know maybe the gmail

00:08:49   app did something that I that's the

00:08:51   connection you know there was some kind

00:08:53   of way that you can make an argument

00:08:54   that it did something pretty good you

00:08:56   know maybe gmail and i don't know i

00:08:58   guess probably did pretty good job with

00:09:00   your google calendar right

00:09:01   out-of-the-box even back then but

00:09:03   Michael was just an FYI didn't know what

00:09:06   to say Michael was just like ultimately

00:09:08   it's just like wait just but stop stop

00:09:10   just look at it i mean--and and even

00:09:14   Merlin who was high on the thing at the

00:09:16   time he was like and he might have been

00:09:17   high on something else I don't know but

00:09:19   I it was like yeah you do have a point

00:09:21   anyway that's when the stock should have

00:09:24   been shooting up and it wasn't it's

00:09:25   never really been that that related to

00:09:28   reality

00:09:29   well just get it also introduced on on

00:09:33   any kind of you know present value of

00:09:36   the company's products that you know and

00:09:38   and prospects to and just like there's

00:09:40   so much external force on it you know

00:09:43   with you know as you said like that

00:09:45   whole period when the stock was tanking

00:09:47   because the whole market was tanking

00:09:48   there's all those external factors so

00:09:50   even when the company was doing

00:09:52   fantastically with new products and

00:09:53   showing tons of signs of growth the

00:09:55   whole market was so bad that the stock

00:09:57   price stock anyway and you know now

00:09:59   we're seeing kind of other problems of

00:10:02   well you know they might be reaching

00:10:04   saturation in some places they might be

00:10:06   you know you know they can't possibly

00:10:08   keep growing their growing a year ago

00:10:10   today would be the other will be more

00:10:12   money from the world has to invest in

00:10:13   them like there's there's all sorts of

00:10:15   of external factors now that they're

00:10:17   running into that are being problematic

00:10:19   for the stock price even though the

00:10:21   company seems like they're in really

00:10:23   great shape right and i just want to

00:10:25   stay here as use those anybody's

00:10:27   listening to this show extemporaneous

00:10:29   Lee you know and then the next day or

00:10:31   two after it comes out is going to know

00:10:32   the context of what we're talking about

00:10:33   but the the shows are always up there

00:10:35   forever and people listened to him just

00:10:38   for historical context we're recording

00:10:40   this on the evening of

00:10:42   the 24th January 2013 and yesterday

00:10:46   apple reported their results for the

00:10:48   holiday quarter on the stock their stock

00:10:52   opened today at like five hundred and

00:10:54   ten bucks a share and it closed at 450

00:10:57   so the biggest single biggest company in

00:11:00   the world by market cap lost 12 over

00:11:05   twelve percent of its value in a single

00:11:08   day on an earnings report that that

00:11:11   completed a record-breaking not for the

00:11:15   company but for any company in history

00:11:17   the single-most profitable year in

00:11:18   history with still growing revenue and

00:11:23   really I guess ultimately when it comes

00:11:25   down to it you'd go through all the

00:11:27   numbers the one thing that has dropped

00:11:29   is their profit margins which has

00:11:33   dropped from like astronomically high

00:11:35   forty-five to fifty percent a year ago

00:11:38   to still remarkably high like 36 or 37

00:11:43   38 percent for a hardware company which

00:11:47   is higher than software companies more

00:11:49   margin margins like Microsoft's and

00:11:52   Google's but because those because those

00:11:55   margins are shrinking their earnings

00:11:58   profits whatever you want to call it net

00:11:59   income is shrinking year-over-year for

00:12:03   the first time since 2003 even though

00:12:05   we're talking about numbers like nine

00:12:08   ten billion dollars per quarter in

00:12:10   earnings and profit so it is not it's

00:12:13   not like hey it was entirely good news

00:12:15   the growth is still there

00:12:17   ah but the the market reaction to it is

00:12:20   absolutely ridiculous i think i would

00:12:23   love to know and I just this is the sort

00:12:25   of thing I googled for and couldn't find

00:12:26   anything and I guess you know I after

00:12:28   i'm sure there's a way to figure it out

00:12:30   but I'm trying to figure out if like the

00:12:32   biggest company in the world

00:12:35   whatever the biggest company in the

00:12:36   world as you know it was Exxon before

00:12:38   like 2005 it was General Electric you

00:12:40   know the title passes every couple years

00:12:42   has there ever been a company at the top

00:12:47   of the currently biggest market cap who

00:12:50   so volatile stock the stock price as

00:12:53   Apple is like a question right like

00:12:56   talking about the stocks that we own

00:12:59   I buy my own like ninety seven dollars

00:13:03   I swear it's like 97 was more than a

00:13:05   little bit more now but of serious or XM

00:13:10   I don't know which ones I was like three

00:13:11   cents

00:13:12   yeah it was like there was a time when

00:13:14   they were like on the couple years ago

00:13:16   they were like on a customer going

00:13:17   bankrupt enemy is my friend Paul

00:13:19   Colossus and I run and he pointed it out

00:13:21   to me on aim it was like hey you know

00:13:23   like I forget which one is the company

00:13:25   now it will be merged into serious so

00:13:27   it's serious why so serious i didn't

00:13:29   know so it's called Sirius XM guys they

00:13:31   kept both things so I and they were

00:13:34   seriously trading it like three cents a

00:13:35   share or something like that and I was

00:13:39   and I have it I have instead is one of

00:13:42   those like this is how I make

00:13:43   investments i have XM in the car and

00:13:46   it's all we ever listen to in the car

00:13:48   and I'm happy to pay whatever it is they

00:13:51   charged me a month that seems like i'm

00:13:52   getting a good value for something that

00:13:55   I enjoy it works very well so I thought

00:13:57   well that doesn't make any sense that

00:13:59   they would be going bankrupt this seems

00:14:00   like a good deal

00:14:01   it seems like every car i see nowadays

00:14:03   has the goofy little antenna on the roof

00:14:05   for it they have just bought out their

00:14:07   competitors they don't have any

00:14:08   competition i'm gonna buy them because i

00:14:10   don't see how this is gonna go anywhere

00:14:12   without but my each I'm not an investor

00:14:14   I don't keep a lot of money there my

00:14:15   etrade account I swear to God had like

00:14:17   twenty seven dollars or something like

00:14:19   that in it so i just bought as many

00:14:21   shares as I could I don't know what it

00:14:23   was maybe it was like 11 cents a share

00:14:24   so i bought a decent number of shares

00:14:27   you probably paid ten bucks to buy him

00:14:29   yeah yeah I did I think like the the 999

00:14:32   transaction fee took up a lot of it and

00:14:35   lo and behold I forget what its trading

00:14:37   and let me see it three dollars in nine

00:14:39   cents so I've made money on it but i

00:14:41   only started with like I don't know ice

00:14:44   literally like twenty dollars i mean

00:14:45   it's it was the equivalent of like when

00:14:48   you're in college and you you you know

00:14:50   where the mac with the ATM machines were

00:14:52   that let you take out ten dollars

00:14:54   instead of 20 because you only have

00:14:56   eighteen dollars in your account

00:14:57   yeah i lost like nine nine dollars like

00:15:00   thirty three percent of the trade on the

00:15:02   train

00:15:02   action and got like twenty dollars worth

00:15:04   of this document it's gone way up

00:15:06   that's like the only individual stock I

00:15:07   oh and now you can you can sell it and

00:15:09   maybe maybe buy an ipad mini smart cover

00:15:12   with the proceeds

00:15:13   yeah something like that but so let's

00:15:20   talk like that though I guess stock of a

00:15:22   company that is selling it at eleven

00:15:25   cents a share or something like that

00:15:26   well you expect it may be to have one

00:15:28   day when it goes up or down fifteen

00:15:29   percent twenty percent because it only

00:15:31   takes ten cents for it to go up fifty

00:15:33   percent the biggest company in the world

00:15:35   I'd it doesn't make any sense to me that

00:15:38   they would either go up or down twelve

00:15:41   percent in one day based on a quarter

00:15:44   where what they announced was really not

00:15:46   that far removed from what everybody was

00:15:49   expecting

00:15:50   yeah I mean and that's one of the

00:15:51   reasons why I wanted to get out of

00:15:53   owning that stock is because it is just

00:15:56   so incredibly volatile and and I was

00:15:59   just tired of of the stress of and and

00:16:01   kind of the frustration every day of

00:16:03   like you know what is the market

00:16:05   thinking with this it shouldn't be doing

00:16:07   this so you know things like that and

00:16:08   it's just I don't need that in my life

00:16:10   anymore like I I realized like the money

00:16:13   I made on that over the last couple

00:16:15   years since i've started buying the

00:16:17   shares I made you know some money on it

00:16:21   but i would have been probably better

00:16:22   served just ignoring that completely and

00:16:26   redirecting that effort and time and

00:16:28   stress capacity into another business or

00:16:31   another podcast or a few more blog posts

00:16:33   or something else like doing anything

00:16:35   else would have been a better choice for

00:16:38   me then then boring what Apple stock

00:16:40   every week

00:16:41   yeah this comes up for me a lot because

00:16:43   I mean and I I don't blame people i

00:16:45   really don't because I don't expect

00:16:46   expect that the vast majority of people

00:16:48   who either list well maybe listen to my

00:16:50   show they're more regulars but I

00:16:51   certainly understand that people who

00:16:53   read my website an awful lot of them are

00:16:55   not regular readers they just come there

00:16:57   when somebody else links to something or

00:16:59   they'll they'll think to check in 110

00:17:00   hit-and-runs and so you know i think a

00:17:05   lot of people probably if they had to

00:17:06   guess would think that I do own apple

00:17:08   and so like on weeks like this where i

00:17:10   spend a lot of time and effort writing

00:17:12   about the stock i'll get a handful of

00:17:14   emails asking

00:17:15   really almost always very politely just

00:17:17   curious not accusation will not you know

00:17:20   any kind of confrontation but just

00:17:21   curious like hey do you own apple stock

00:17:23   and then you know I have a I don't think

00:17:25   i have a text expander state but if i do

00:17:27   have forgotten but you know i have a

00:17:28   you'd short answer that no I feel like I

00:17:31   shouldn't because it's a conflict of

00:17:32   interest and sometimes I write back and

00:17:34   say wow that's good to know

00:17:36   boy that must be frustrating for you

00:17:38   because I'm sure you would have wanted

00:17:39   to buy it you know back when it was $72

00:17:42   and share and in 2008 and man look at

00:17:46   that now I and I honestly don't have

00:17:49   that thought at all like i am the type

00:17:51   of person who if I were by playing a

00:17:54   casino game and I was betting black on

00:17:56   rely on Betterlife but if I was betting

00:17:58   black and I got up and left and notice

00:18:00   that black just 14 in a row i would

00:18:02   think

00:18:02   dammit I shouldn't you know I should've

00:18:04   stayed there I don't have that any any

00:18:06   kind of feeling like that with apple

00:18:07   because I feel like I've done very well

00:18:09   with apples success my own way you know

00:18:11   that that that my website has become so

00:18:14   popular people are interested in it and

00:18:17   and you know I I have no complaints

00:18:18   about the success I've enjoyed on in

00:18:22   some sense on Apple's back over the last

00:18:24   10 years I don't need it also to be in

00:18:27   the stock market right and if that was a

00:18:29   risk to your credibility than it would

00:18:31   really not be worth exactly know that's

00:18:34   a perfect point where it's actually in

00:18:36   some sense it would be worse where I

00:18:37   feel like being able to say you know

00:18:40   being in that you know successful

00:18:43   situation i am with my website right now

00:18:45   and being able to say i don't own the

00:18:47   stock i have no relationship with them

00:18:48   and I know I've they don't give me money

00:18:50   they don't pay for my trips to come to

00:18:52   their events or anything is worth more

00:18:55   to me

00:18:57   overall I mean I can't put a price tag

00:18:58   on that but it's worth more to me inside

00:19:01   my head then then it would be if i put i

00:19:04   don't know whatever number thousand

00:19:06   dollars i could have theoretically put

00:19:07   into the stock when I thought it was

00:19:09   incredibly long I wonder you know what

00:19:12   what effect having like a bad six months

00:19:15   of of the stock like what effect that

00:19:16   has the company and I think you know

00:19:18   financially apples doing very well for

00:19:21   themselves they have a massive pile of

00:19:22   cash you know that's that all seems well

00:19:24   and good and they don't seem affected by

00:19:26   that I think Tim Cook is putting on a

00:19:28   good

00:19:28   the good face for two and i don't think

00:19:31   he has like no job security to worry

00:19:33   about 40 for a long time but you know

00:19:37   might be a problem for retaining talent

00:19:40   I I wonder I that's the sort of thing

00:19:44   where it's a and I'm a little in over my

00:19:46   head but I wonder like how much Apple

00:19:48   like our options still a thing for

00:19:50   retain retaining talent at an apple

00:19:54   I mean and like you know they can always

00:19:55   reprice them like they did with jobs

00:19:57   that whole problem I i assume again i'm

00:20:00   also weighed in way over my head with

00:20:01   the legalities of what they can do here

00:20:03   but you know they they could like spend

00:20:06   more money i assume to make the options

00:20:08   worth more to their existing employees

00:20:10   but I have to imagine this must hurt

00:20:12   morale for people who have a meaningful

00:20:15   number of stock options or meaningful

00:20:17   matter of compensation tied to the stock

00:20:19   price and some other way and either that

00:20:22   probably aren't a whole lot of people

00:20:23   who have that situation but i don't know

00:20:25   you know this could be a problem like if

00:20:28   they start losing mid-level or even

00:20:30   upper level VP's that could really be

00:20:33   problematic and I feel like Apple

00:20:37   already has

00:20:38   they already have a problem retaining

00:20:40   talent because from what I see I'm grant

00:20:44   this is based on no research accept

00:20:45   people like people I see and know and

00:20:47   read about but it seems like you know

00:20:50   Apple has created this awesome ecosystem

00:20:54   especially with iOS someone with the mac

00:20:57   but mostly with iOS is awesome software

00:20:59   ecosystem and they have lost a lot of

00:21:03   good people over the last few years who

00:21:05   have gone out and done there on iOS

00:21:07   startups and and that all that is

00:21:10   probably a pretty big talent retention

00:21:13   problem alone and so I I feel like if

00:21:15   you add any factors to that if you add

00:21:18   in things like options being worth a lot

00:21:20   less than they were before that could be

00:21:22   really bad for them

00:21:24   yeah and i don't i think it is a

00:21:27   different I don't think Microsoft had

00:21:30   this problem in Windows heyday because

00:21:32   obviously there were

00:21:34   the success of windows created a

00:21:36   inordinate number of programming jobs

00:21:39   developer jobs but I don't think it

00:21:41   created this sort of jobs where somebody

00:21:46   could leave Apple and and either be

00:21:48   guaranteed a lot of money or have the

00:21:50   opportunity as like a founder to to make

00:21:55   a lot of money it wasn't like a start-up

00:21:57   types thing you know the the first real

00:22:00   startup thing for developers was the web

00:22:02   not windows right and the web it was

00:22:05   hard to make money on the web so it

00:22:07   wasn't quite as much of a gold rush

00:22:09   mentality of oh my god i'm missing out

00:22:10   on everything going on the web right now

00:22:12   because i'm working for some big company

00:22:14   right and it wasn't the sort of thing

00:22:17   that step that that sprang completely

00:22:21   from one company where writers this well

00:22:25   I mean unsurprisingly there's an

00:22:28   enormous well of iOS development talent

00:22:30   in apple like people who are really good

00:22:34   you would I OS now well just thinking

00:22:37   about the friends that I that you know a

00:22:39   lot of a mutual friend of mine in yours

00:22:40   but friends we have who work there I

00:22:43   mean they're they're you know they're a

00:22:45   plus people and no surprise i'm sure

00:22:50   that you know that that they're on the

00:22:52   you know but probably dealing with those

00:22:54   recruiter pitches and a regular basis

00:22:56   you have a problem to with with

00:22:58   retaining these people is if the growth

00:23:01   is slowing down then Apple is going to

00:23:05   lose some of its reputation of being a

00:23:07   place where the cutting edge is

00:23:08   happening and and that also like that

00:23:11   that dampening of that even though i'm

00:23:15   sure there are there are still a lot of

00:23:16   you know exciting things to do an apple

00:23:19   that's what that even a slight dampening

00:23:22   and that is going to also amplify people

00:23:25   desire to leave and go to eat or

00:23:27   something more exciting or their own

00:23:28   startup yeah and I do think that that is

00:23:31   part of the appeal that Apple has for

00:23:34   top-notch talent is sort of sense that

00:23:36   this that's the show that's where the

00:23:39   best people go

00:23:41   I you know that you're not really

00:23:45   pushing yourself if you haven't

00:23:47   tried taking a job at apple yet right

00:23:50   and you know that's an exaggeration but

00:23:52   that that spelling it out like that kind

00:23:55   of sounds a little preposterous but i

00:23:57   think that that's a a I don't know what

00:24:00   you want to call it at an undercurrent

00:24:02   in our industry that that people get you

00:24:07   know that when you know when you're here

00:24:09   because you know in addition to them to

00:24:11   people from Apple leaving Apple to go to

00:24:13   start you do we do know a lot of mutual

00:24:15   friends who've been independent and then

00:24:17   gone to apple you know you understand

00:24:19   the draw of it is not entirely financial

00:24:21   a lot of it is that all of a sudden

00:24:23   you've got an opportunity to maybe do

00:24:27   the best work of your life you know and

00:24:29   certainly the work that might reach the

00:24:31   most people or order to just have more

00:24:34   control over what you do like an apple

00:24:36   you might be working on you know some

00:24:38   some feature of some little used app

00:24:41   that you know if you if you want to be

00:24:45   like a big product person and have your

00:24:47   own control over what you do over I can

00:24:49   make an entire app yourself or with one

00:24:52   of the person some people and apple can

00:24:54   do that most can't and even the ones

00:24:56   that do you usually can't put their name

00:24:58   on it right now nobody gets to put our

00:25:01   name on it really right I was anybody is

00:25:04   there anybody that with all the keynotes

00:25:06   yeah but that's really the only at the

00:25:09   exactly the handful of sand as he

00:25:11   pleases yeah and even then I wondered

00:25:13   because you know like there's a lot more

00:25:15   executives than those who get to go on

00:25:16   stage right it's a very short list

00:25:19   I wonder though you know in the past it

00:25:23   was always easy to pick which company

00:25:26   was like the place that especially like

00:25:30   programmers right out of college or you

00:25:32   know people who who were really good and

00:25:34   who would get noticed publicly and be

00:25:36   you know be a Pope's by somebody like

00:25:39   what was the company everyone wanted to

00:25:42   work for so i think when I left college

00:25:45   and 2004 sorry when I house colleagues

00:25:49   in 2004 that company was google and it

00:25:53   remained indisputably google for a while

00:25:58   maybe until around 2009 even even maybe

00:26:00   2010 and and then Google started getting

00:26:05   big and boring and then I think Apple

00:26:08   was that company starting around iphone

00:26:11   time i think or maybe even a little bit

00:26:12   before Apple became that company for a

00:26:15   lot of people and it was never quite as

00:26:18   prevalent in that role as Google was for

00:26:20   so long but it certainly was there too

00:26:23   to a large extent i wonder how much that

00:26:26   is fading now but it seems like Google

00:26:29   is not going upwards in that direction

00:26:32   Google's still going downwards of you

00:26:34   know being an interesting place for

00:26:35   cutting-edge people to want to work so

00:26:39   now though I don't really see a start-up

00:26:41   in a facebook might have briefly had a

00:26:43   little bit of that maybe two years ago

00:26:45   but i don't really see what companies

00:26:47   replacing that I think maybe what's

00:26:49   replacing that is just doing your own

00:26:50   startup for for this for this era you

00:26:53   know maybe for this five-year period

00:26:55   yeah i think so and I think Facebook's a

00:26:57   good example where I mean and I add I'm

00:27:00   probably really I'm qualified to speak

00:27:02   about it because I've always found

00:27:03   facebook distasteful I mean that still

00:27:05   have never signed up for the thing but I

00:27:10   I don't know that anybody you know let's

00:27:12   say two years ago three years ago maybe

00:27:14   when Facebook will head peak draw for

00:27:16   talent i think it was entirely about the

00:27:19   anticipation of them having a big IPO

00:27:21   and that you could join even late in the

00:27:24   game and make a lot of dough

00:27:25   I not because boy they're putting out

00:27:29   the best software in the world

00:27:30   yeah I think you're right you know like

00:27:32   nobody really thinks about it as great

00:27:34   software you know even Microsoft because

00:27:37   in the nineties it was always was

00:27:39   definitely microsoft you know and

00:27:40   Microsoft had a run on their stock

00:27:43   throughout the nineties that was just

00:27:46   tremendous I mean there's it was like a

00:27:48   free no phrase microsoft millionaires

00:27:50   you know that there were teams are or i

00:27:52   guess it was almost you know it was like

00:27:57   a weird social thing where that you'd be

00:27:59   at Microsoft on a team of six people and

00:28:01   to the people would be like like

00:28:03   multi-millionaires because they've been

00:28:05   there for three four five years and the

00:28:07   other for people who maybe we're only

00:28:09   there two years with nothing but their

00:28:11   salary and options that had invested yet

00:28:14   no but you are surrounded by people who

00:28:15   were like not just ok if you add up my

00:28:18   net worth yes it's a little bit over a

00:28:20   million a millionaire but they were like

00:28:22   millionaire millionaires and they just

00:28:23   kept coming to work all because it was

00:28:27   you know people got these options in the

00:28:29   stock had just gone up up up every micro

00:28:32   surface

00:28:33   well I'm excited it's one of those

00:28:35   things i always hear about and always

00:28:36   think I should read that sometime and of

00:28:37   course I probably never will

00:28:39   I'm it's one of those books where I'm

00:28:40   surprised I'm not in the same situation

00:28:42   that it seems like type of book that

00:28:44   would be on my wish I'd read it but

00:28:45   haven't read but I did read it was it's

00:28:47   very good i mean even split if you want

00:28:50   well I don't you know I don't think i

00:28:52   remember it quite well enough to spoil

00:28:54   it but it's just it it it but it it

00:28:56   captured that feeling know of you know

00:28:59   you never knew who you were around who

00:29:02   was you know had like a net worth of

00:29:03   15-20 million dollars and was doing the

00:29:05   exact same work as you was doing it for

00:29:07   nothing but a salary of I don't you know

00:29:10   ninety thousand dollars a year which was

00:29:12   like you know a lot better in 1995 that

00:29:15   sounds today

00:29:16   oh yeah well and also a minute and

00:29:18   that's always kind of been problematic

00:29:21   and part a deeply-rooted part of the the

00:29:24   modern computer worker culture is you

00:29:27   know you eat a lot of people except

00:29:29   pretty mediocre salaries on the promise

00:29:33   of maybe striking it rich with options

00:29:35   or something and and in practice that

00:29:37   happens to so few programmers relative

00:29:40   to how many jobs there are they're

00:29:41   paying these terrible salaries promising

00:29:43   the possibility of these things it's

00:29:46   really kind of sad it's it's it's a lot

00:29:47   like like the celebrity or entertainment

00:29:50   business or even professional sports

00:29:52   where you know people will tolerate

00:29:54   pretty-pretty a ripoff conditions for a

00:29:59   while with the hope of making a big and

00:30:01   most never will

00:30:02   right right like minor league baseball

00:30:05   being right famous example right like

00:30:07   minor league baseball players most of

00:30:09   them unless they've already there so

00:30:10   talented like takin top and the draft

00:30:13   and they've signed for a big bonus are

00:30:15   making like hundreds of dollars a week

00:30:18   maybe even in a month

00:30:20   riding around on like school buses

00:30:21   staying in college dorms

00:30:23   you know all you know six months at a

00:30:25   time and then going to you know get a

00:30:27   day job for the other six months of the

00:30:28   year i'm grown men you know

00:30:32   thirty-year-old grown man who still hope

00:30:33   to make it to the major leagues who are

00:30:34   sleeping in college dorms for six months

00:30:37   that's gotta be rough oh I think it's

00:30:39   really rough sort of what makes minor

00:30:42   league baseball so poetic though you

00:30:44   know I the whole bull durham thing here

00:30:50   let me throw this is something from my

00:30:52   notes and this is about the apples to

00:30:54   get back to the apple stock and it's not

00:30:58   just the stock it's it's to me and I i

00:31:01   talked about this with mulch last week

00:31:02   where there's as different breed of

00:31:04   Apple why don't you want to call them

00:31:07   pessimist I don't use the word hater

00:31:09   because I feel like hater is the

00:31:11   opposite of fanboy and it's not

00:31:12   constructive

00:31:14   but people who just I'm just gonna say

00:31:15   people who don't like Apple and people

00:31:18   you know or or or who they're looking

00:31:25   for reasons to always not like Apple

00:31:27   right cuz i mean that's like the real

00:31:29   opposite of family and the family

00:31:30   accusation is that is that you know

00:31:33   whoever the accused of it will blindly

00:31:34   try to support the thing that they've

00:31:38   bought usually because it's something

00:31:40   that you can't economically by both

00:31:42   sides of so you gotta make a choice and

00:31:44   you want to defend your choice and so

00:31:46   you want to support that you know

00:31:48   emotionally and psychologically some

00:31:50   kind of that that convey a distance that

00:31:53   there's some kind of term for that I

00:31:54   don't know

00:31:55   yeah something and so I think that hater

00:31:56   is the other end of its like it's

00:31:58   somebody who who who has decided never

00:32:00   to to support this thing never to buy

00:32:02   this company's products and want to

00:32:04   continually justify that position to

00:32:05   themselves I I'd something like that and

00:32:09   I think I got sidetracked on this point

00:32:10   last week before i made it quite right

00:32:12   which is that there's de tirely

00:32:14   different breeds of people who let's say

00:32:16   people who Apple drives crazy I mean and

00:32:20   and and let's just say this take it to

00:32:22   extremes one would be lets say like the

00:32:25   open-source zealot with long hair and a

00:32:30   beard and you know a developer who loves

00:32:35   android because it's open really

00:32:37   seize it and thinks it's just great that

00:32:38   you can download it and you know really

00:32:41   doesn't see it as a joke some of it is a

00:32:42   little while but there's still no enough

00:32:45   of it that's open and really really

00:32:46   hates the whole app store thing and the

00:32:49   fact that you you know they have to

00:32:51   jailbreak the thing to sideload apps on

00:32:53   it and you still can't jailbreak the

00:32:55   iPhone 5 and blah blah blah that guy and

00:32:58   compare and contrast with the guy who

00:33:00   works on Wall Street and is 57 years old

00:33:04   and wears a suit everyday I and really

00:33:07   you know is more about the Apple the

00:33:09   stock APPL the company you know and and

00:33:13   it's a very different of those are two

00:33:15   people who are never going to meet a

00:33:17   very different reasons for not liking

00:33:19   the company or being pessimistic about

00:33:21   it or predicting its demise or whatever

00:33:23   both driven nuts by the company and I I

00:33:29   feel like a lot of them it's all come

00:33:31   together in recent months though where

00:33:33   that the media coverage I've seen of

00:33:36   apple in the last two months has

00:33:38   consistently presented apples smartphone

00:33:42   sales in a way that I think makes it

00:33:47   look as though Samsung is already

00:33:48   outselling them and and it's not true at

00:33:52   the high end you know into the galaxy

00:33:54   note in the galaxy tab right they say

00:33:56   increased competition from the galaxy

00:33:57   tab and that apple's share of the

00:33:59   smartphone's has dropped from 23% in

00:34:02   nineteen percent and Samsung has gone up

00:34:04   to thirty one percent and then anyway I

00:34:06   think my dad I always think my dad my

00:34:08   dad read that article what would he

00:34:09   think he would say well that's this

00:34:11   samsung galaxy tab is outselling the

00:34:13   iphone by a good margin and that's not

00:34:16   true

00:34:16   apple sold more iphone 5 in like the

00:34:19   first three or two months than apple and

00:34:22   then samsung sold galaxy tab threes in I

00:34:26   forget how much longer it's been on the

00:34:28   market you know it's not even close

00:34:29   so here's what I think is going on in

00:34:33   some extent I think that there's a lot

00:34:35   of writers analysts blogger zealots and

00:34:39   in some sense investors to who have been

00:34:41   waiting and waiting four years for Apple

00:34:44   to fall for whatever reason whatever

00:34:46   their hobby horse reason of of what's

00:34:48   wrong with apple

00:34:49   why apple's doing it wrong and why

00:34:50   they're lucky they have been waiting for

00:34:52   Apple to fall and they've grown so

00:34:54   impatient because it hasn't happened

00:34:55   that they've just gone ahead and claim

00:34:57   that it's happened

00:34:58   right or like they are they amplify any

00:35:01   sign that it might be happening in some

00:35:03   point in the future I think there's an

00:35:06   awful lot of them who are claiming that

00:35:08   it's happening now

00:35:09   right i mean I'm i see it on Twitter

00:35:11   like with the reaction to my sort of

00:35:14   incredulous that Apple apples results

00:35:17   yesterday should you know would result

00:35:19   in a massive massive dumping of the

00:35:24   stock again I think the stocks actually

00:35:27   going to lower since the point where

00:35:28   somebody tweeted it but somebody worked

00:35:30   it out that the amount of money that

00:35:32   apple's market cap dropped after hours

00:35:35   just in like two hours and after our

00:35:37   training after the result was equal to 2

00:35:40   Nokia's plus 2 rims have any i think it

00:35:44   has gone down further since and it's

00:35:45   gone down further since that Apple has

00:35:47   lost the entirety of two rims and to

00:35:50   Nokia's i think a lot of this attitude

00:35:53   like I i wrote this thing come let's go

00:35:55   for the magazine is published this week

00:35:57   called anti-apple anger and and you know

00:36:01   my theory is that a lot of people really

00:36:03   resent Apple you know like i like i

00:36:06   choose not to buy samsung phones but i

00:36:09   don't really have any feelings towards

00:36:11   samsung I just don't really I don't

00:36:12   really think I really care about them

00:36:14   I'm and pretty much in different but a

00:36:17   lot of people who choose not to buy

00:36:18   apple stuff really get worked up about

00:36:20   it and I think one of the reasons why is

00:36:23   because apple products say no a lot in

00:36:28   the in the design choices they make and

00:36:30   in the in the features they omit and the

00:36:33   implementation of the features they have

00:36:35   they say no a lot and they say no in an

00:36:38   opinionated way and and kind of like a

00:36:40   at least in people's minds like a Steve

00:36:42   Jobs arrogance way of like okay the

00:36:45   iphone doesn't have a keyboard because

00:36:47   nobody should ever need a keyboard

00:36:48   that's the wrong way to do it and if you

00:36:49   need a keyboard

00:36:50   tough luck you're wrong you know it's

00:36:52   that kind of attitude and and so that

00:36:53   that really turns a lot of people off

00:36:56   and you know kind of like well you know

00:37:00   here's here's what we offer we may be

00:37:02   made the thing that we think is bad

00:37:03   just if your needs are different you're

00:37:05   somehow wrong or inferior and if you

00:37:07   don't like it there's the door

00:37:08   you know so it does make a lot of

00:37:09   enemies and so that's why i feel like

00:37:12   the people who choose not to buy Apple a

00:37:14   lot of times they have chosen not to buy

00:37:16   Apple because they either want something

00:37:19   Apple as an offer or they do

00:37:20   legitimately need something that apple

00:37:22   stuff can't address for them and and

00:37:27   that attitude has made them actually

00:37:28   angry that Apple like doesn't want their

00:37:31   money or won't take their business or

00:37:32   won't make something that satisfies them

00:37:34   so it generates level of anger that

00:37:37   seems stronger than then what a lot of

00:37:40   companies get for just not serving a

00:37:42   market and I think it does have to do

00:37:45   with that attitude that I think Steve

00:37:47   Jobs showed publicly and that Apple is

00:37:50   kind of now it's kind of become their

00:37:52   reputation of having this attitude even

00:37:54   even people there now don't actually

00:37:56   express it this way but this attitude of

00:37:59   well you know this is whatyou this is

00:38:02   all you should ever need and if you if

00:38:03   your needs are different than you know

00:38:05   you're wrong right well I like your

00:38:08   there's the door because that's the

00:38:09   other thing is that they don't rather

00:38:11   than just take the door and go by the

00:38:13   other companies product and say okay

00:38:17   about this one

00:38:18   they don't take the door they stay in

00:38:20   complaint

00:38:21   yeah well and you know a lot of times we

00:38:24   get if you really believe like if

00:38:26   Apple's saying no one ever needs a

00:38:28   keyboard and you're like well but i like

00:38:30   keyboards you know then there's like

00:38:34   this this motivation people say wait

00:38:36   know when something's wrong here you

00:38:38   people are all sheep you're brainwashed

00:38:39   your faithful whatever you know all

00:38:41   these terms that mean you're being

00:38:42   irrational devoted you know that they

00:38:44   want to discredit you guys like know

00:38:46   that that's factually wrong in my head

00:38:48   so obviously something's wrong with all

00:38:50   of you people for buying this and for

00:38:51   saying it's so great i like this guy

00:38:54   link to this week he said here's the

00:38:57   things Apple needs to do and one of them

00:38:59   is making I now our lease announced

00:39:01   during the earnings call they should

00:39:02   announce that we're gonna make an iphone

00:39:04   with a hardware keyboard I

00:39:07   and he rides your correspondent does not

00:39:10   have an iphone i probably wouldn't own

00:39:12   one anyway but I'm precluded from even

00:39:14   considering one because they do not come

00:39:16   with the real physical keyboard right

00:39:18   and i have saggy and I absolutely must

00:39:20   have one so i love this guy I love him

00:39:24   because he's still hung up on this 2007

00:39:27   complained of that Apple needs to not

00:39:29   should but needs to make an iphone with

00:39:32   a hardware keyboard and then I just love

00:39:34   it I love the bonus-point his business

00:39:36   whatever but that he probably wouldn't

00:39:38   own one anyway that they must do it

00:39:41   because he can't buy one without one but

00:39:43   he still wouldn't buy one man's about

00:39:45   yeah that is pretty good

00:39:47   that to me is is really really good i

00:39:50   also saw the along similar lines i saw

00:39:52   some because one good way to get a lot

00:39:55   of clicks and it's one of those things

00:39:56   and you wrote about this recently but

00:39:58   don't link to jerks and it's a fine line

00:40:01   you know be trying to give you an

00:40:03   exceptional you're still allowed to I

00:40:04   just don't want yeah but it's a fine

00:40:06   line for everybody and it is where it's

00:40:08   a weird thing for me because my site has

00:40:10   gotten so popular and i don't really i

00:40:13   tend I think for the I think it's good

00:40:15   that i still see it the same way I used

00:40:17   to

00:40:18   and I think if there's any sort of

00:40:19   consistency as it's gotten more

00:40:22   successful it's because to me in my mind

00:40:25   it it isn't that much but i don't i

00:40:28   don't see the people reading the site i

00:40:29   see the same screen that I saw before

00:40:32   but i do know in the back of my head

00:40:34   that there's so many more people reading

00:40:35   and so I am a little bit less likely and

00:40:38   me one of those things that people write

00:40:39   just to get the clicks just together it

00:40:42   is the i'm switching from iphone to

00:40:45   android and here's why

00:40:46   you know I loved my iphone four years

00:40:49   but now i'm switching to android and

00:40:51   there was one last week i think it was a

00:40:53   guy get home and I almost link to I had

00:40:57   it written up I don't do I very seldom

00:40:59   write up a post or even a link and then

00:41:02   stare at it and have it all ready to go

00:41:05   just like one click from publish and

00:41:07   then scrapped it very very seldom but i

00:41:10   did it with this one because I just said

00:41:11   you know what this guy was just angling

00:41:14   for this you know because it wasn't even

00:41:16   here's why I did switch its here's why

00:41:18   I'm going to switch which is not even

00:41:20   worth right because i really got the

00:41:22   feeling like he wasn't gonna do it

00:41:23   anyway but anyway the thing that i found

00:41:26   was that he had like it was only

00:41:27   separated by one paragraph it was like 7

00:41:30   paragraph in was that I all he'd a lot

00:41:38   of his action now on his iphone is in

00:41:41   these apps from Google and he uses you

00:41:43   know the gmail app for his email and

00:41:47   google maps for maps instead of apple

00:41:51   maps and I had like two or three other

00:41:54   examples and a lot of people have been

00:41:56   writing about this that trend lately to

00:41:58   that people replacing apples built-in

00:42:00   apps with third-party apps and this is

00:42:02   somehow bad for Apple then another

00:42:03   paragraph and in the next paragraph was

00:42:05   that apple's app store apple is too

00:42:07   closed and doesn't let you replace stuff

00:42:11   you know two paragraphs before he said

00:42:13   the reason he switched thing about and

00:42:15   think about switching the android is

00:42:16   that he's replaced all of his built-in

00:42:18   apps plus they don't a lot of people say

00:42:21   that the google apps are actually better

00:42:22   on iOS and their android after all a lot

00:42:25   of people do and I had something I want

00:42:27   to write about soon on daring fireball I

00:42:30   want to do it as I got this in draft

00:42:32   follow-up to my thing last week about

00:42:33   that UI design trends and that to me

00:42:38   it's very notable that google is often

00:42:41   hailed at being as being having these

00:42:43   really nice iOS apps and that are in

00:42:46   this sort of knew less textured sort of

00:42:52   planar design style and trying to avoid

00:42:56   a rectangles I'm trying to avoid all

00:42:58   kind really trying to avoid the word

00:43:00   skeuomorphic and flat because i think

00:43:03   but I I not because and overused but

00:43:05   because i think that they're there

00:43:06   they're both wrong the wrong words and I

00:43:09   really kind of read i wish i hadn't used

00:43:13   that one word in the title of last

00:43:15   week's piece but that'll be for my

00:43:17   follow-up but anyway it is absolutely

00:43:20   the case though without any argument

00:43:23   that Google's iOS apps don't look like

00:43:25   android apps at all and I think that's

00:43:27   really interesting because go back at

00:43:30   previous generation

00:43:32   and I liked by the nineties the knock

00:43:35   against all of Microsoft's mac apps was

00:43:38   that they all look like the windows apps

00:43:40   like you know all the office apps look

00:43:43   like Windows obvious they didn't have a

00:43:45   Windows user from the time i hated

00:43:46   quicktime because it looked like it

00:43:48   didn't belong on windows where I

00:43:51   couldn't absolutely see the argument you

00:43:53   know I mean I think that's why I'm out i

00:43:55   think it's apt I think it's still even

00:43:56   in more recent years i think it's

00:43:58   clearly why safari for windows never got

00:44:01   any traction whatsoever whereas chrome

00:44:03   for windows using the same rendering

00:44:05   engine you know took off like a rocket

00:44:08   I feel like I'm sorry finish that well I

00:44:11   just think that that's to me it's

00:44:12   fascinating that google has is doing I

00:44:15   think much better UI design work and in

00:44:18   all senses of the word aesthetically in

00:44:21   terms of being aesthetically pleasing

00:44:22   and in terms of usability on iOS that on

00:44:26   Android well and I think part of that is

00:44:29   that the environment is you know like

00:44:32   you try to rise to the level of your

00:44:34   environment that urine and on iOS like

00:44:36   if they really something really hideous

00:44:38   that probably do very well in iOS

00:44:41   because the standards are are generally

00:44:42   pretty high for you I stuff

00:44:44   yeah and my understanding is I don't

00:44:46   know a lot of people who work at Google

00:44:48   on iOS stuff but I know a few but my

00:44:50   sense is though that that that's what

00:44:51   they do that if you work on iOS stuff

00:44:54   you're an iOS engineer at Google it's

00:44:56   not just that you're on Team acts and

00:44:59   the same people writing android apps are

00:45:00   writing iOS apps and they're trying to

00:45:02   square the circle by using some sort of

00:45:07   cross-platform things that they cannot

00:45:09   write once and do it all and you know

00:45:11   make them both just webviews so they can

00:45:15   just write once and ship both know

00:45:17   they've got like real iOS developers who

00:45:19   know and love the platform right i think

00:45:24   they're even advertising recently wasn't

00:45:25   everything when they were advertising

00:45:26   recently that they you know that if

00:45:28   you're a great iOS developer you come

00:45:30   work at Google and change the world or

00:45:32   something like that no i don't know i

00:45:34   don't let me do a sponsor break

00:45:36   yeah let's take the take the first break

00:45:39   here and I want to thank our first

00:45:41   sponsor you've probably heard of them

00:45:43   Squarespace

00:45:44   Squarespace is doing great work they

00:45:48   have a great new product on its a

00:45:51   do-it-yourself website platform that

00:45:53   allows you to make a website or a blog

00:45:56   just a few minutes they give you free

00:46:00   domain name they handle all the hosting

00:46:03   and they have 24-hour customer support

00:46:06   and we take a break in the middle of

00:46:07   this sponsor me tell you something

00:46:09   happen to me John Gruber last night

00:46:12   ready to go to bed like midnight wasn't

00:46:14   going to go to bed is gonna watch a

00:46:15   movie or somebody's ready to walk away

00:46:16   from keyboard and I went to check my

00:46:18   stats just one more time before I went

00:46:20   to bed and and I wouldn't love it at all

00:46:23   I went to go to daring fireball dotnet

00:46:25   and it just spun wasn't completely dead

00:46:28   but the little progress bar what about

00:46:30   two inches and just stopped almost never

00:46:32   happens to me right website is you

00:46:34   generally really really solid I long

00:46:38   story short i logged in i restarted

00:46:40   apache students didn't solve it I

00:46:43   noticed that there were way too many

00:46:45   Apache processes running I thought maybe

00:46:47   I was getting somebody even way more

00:46:50   popular than me had fireball my sight

00:46:52   when I would be why there's so many

00:46:54   things i don't know i couldn't figure

00:46:57   out why there were so many Apache

00:46:58   processes can figure it out

00:47:03   restarted apache didn't help restarted

00:47:05   the whole server didn't help

00:47:07   can I take a guess what was it you run

00:47:11   meant stats on your server right I do

00:47:14   my guess is that all those Apache

00:47:17   instances were a whole bunch of mint

00:47:21   processes waiting for the connection of

00:47:22   the database and the database itself was

00:47:24   jammed up

00:47:25   exactamundo my god Marco Arment that's

00:47:28   why they pay you the big bucks

00:47:29   I kind of have some background assorted

00:47:31   I have a second server that runs mysql

00:47:35   and mysql does two things for me is my

00:47:38   movable-type installation that's where

00:47:41   the data store is for it and meant

00:47:43   rights to it and so exactly what you're

00:47:46   saying is happening is every time

00:47:47   someone would load the page the actual

00:47:49   web server during far ball is up but

00:47:51   every single Apache process would then

00:47:53   be like waiting for the mysql server to

00:47:56   get back

00:47:56   to it and say okay I took that hit for

00:47:58   you from mint and then as soon as i

00:48:01   restarted the mysql server everything

00:48:03   was hunky-dory back to normal

00:48:05   here's the thing how many normal people

00:48:07   can do what I just did I i have a

00:48:10   demonic assistant man but i do have a

00:48:11   degree in computer science I did work

00:48:13   professionally as a web developer before

00:48:16   how many people at midnight on wednesday

00:48:18   night and can troubleshoot something

00:48:21   like that

00:48:21   I wish you were around your party could

00:48:22   have saved me 15 minutes and it would

00:48:24   have been started sooner

00:48:26   here's the thing you go to squarespace

00:48:28   instead you don't have to worry about

00:48:30   that they've got 24 hour support their

00:48:34   analytics are built in probably don't

00:48:36   block on the mysql server and they

00:48:39   handle the hosting for you and then I

00:48:41   mentioned that they have 24-hour

00:48:42   customer support everything on our

00:48:45   platform its drag-and-drop right so

00:48:46   you're not sitting there you don't have

00:48:47   to sit there and write code to make your

00:48:49   website design your blog they have a

00:48:51   tremendous front end where you can

00:48:54   design this stuff and put little widgets

00:48:56   you know put the elements you want on

00:48:58   the page in the templates where you want

00:49:00   them by drag-and-drop you can drag

00:49:03   pictures straight from your desktop take

00:49:04   a picture is on your desktop drag it

00:49:07   right into the web browser and create

00:49:08   custom layout put the picture in there

00:49:10   just by drag-and-drop you don't have to

00:49:11   write image tags and source and all that

00:49:14   stuff i mean you could if you wanted to

00:49:15   you can customize this stuff if you do

00:49:17   know how to do write code but you don't

00:49:19   have to all the templates are

00:49:21   customizable so you don't have to just

00:49:24   pick between their pre-existing

00:49:25   templates you can customize it tweaked

00:49:28   it a little bit or make your own thing

00:49:29   right from the start if that's what you

00:49:31   want to do

00:49:32   it's really really great stuff you can

00:49:35   switch from one template to another at

00:49:37   any time you don't have to pick all

00:49:40   right at the beginning and then you're

00:49:41   locked in because all your content is

00:49:42   like hard formatted in the template one

00:49:46   more thing they do that I still don't

00:49:48   even do is that all their built-in

00:49:50   templates scale automatically have

00:49:52   perfectly fit iPad iPhone your computer

00:49:55   your 27-inch imac whatever it is you

00:49:58   know what you want to call a responsive

00:49:59   design they've got it I don't even have

00:50:01   that yet I'm still behind the eight ball

00:50:03   on that I'm you can pull contacts push

00:50:06   content from your blog's to Twitter

00:50:08   Facebook stuff like that you can pull

00:50:11   content from your twitter you can have

00:50:12   your tweets show up automatically on

00:50:14   your Squarespace site great great stuff

00:50:16   and it's really easy you can learn it

00:50:18   just by looking at it here's what you do

00:50:20   go to squarespace.com / the talkshow

00:50:24   squarespace.com / the talk show that no

00:50:27   no you're coming here from the show

00:50:28   start a free trial don't even need a

00:50:30   credit card just start the free trial if

00:50:32   you decide to purchase if you like it

00:50:34   then when you go you just enter enter

00:50:37   offer code below the pricing thing at

00:50:39   checkout and the offer code is the

00:50:42   talkshow one that's the talk show and

00:50:45   then the digit 1 and you'll get a

00:50:47   10-percent discount squarespace.com /

00:50:51   the talk show when you're ready to sign

00:50:53   up and pay use the offer code the

00:50:55   talkshow one my thanks to squarespace

00:50:58   whatever it's worth I I even though i

00:51:02   can log into a server and figure out

00:51:04   problems like that last week launched a

00:51:07   new podcast and I wanted to build a

00:51:09   website for it and the last thing I

00:51:12   wanted to do was spend a whole lot of

00:51:14   time and effort making a website for a

00:51:16   podcast that might only have a few

00:51:18   episodes and I know that's like the last

00:51:20   thing you want to worry about so i went

00:51:21   to squarespace and that dated they did

00:51:23   end up sponsoring it so it's a little

00:51:25   bit of a disclosure there but I i went

00:51:28   to host it there before i got them to

00:51:30   sponsor it and you know because i went

00:51:33   there because i didn't even though i can

00:51:35   do all that stuff I don't want to mess

00:51:38   with that one isn't necessary and and it

00:51:41   was great i really have no complaints i

00:51:42   hope the entire podcast there including

00:51:44   the audio files

00:51:46   amazingly they allow you to do that I

00:51:49   i'm very happy with that I they've built

00:51:51   out an incredible you know it if you're

00:51:53   thinking you know I don't know I used to

00:51:55   think of Squarespace is like a not that

00:51:57   it was bad but I used in the back of my

00:51:58   head I thought of it is a fill in the

00:52:01   blank template thing where you got

00:52:03   templates and you can fill them in and

00:52:05   then you have a template back website

00:52:07   and it is so much more than that it

00:52:09   really is it's a really great system

00:52:11   that they built now and I feel like you

00:52:14   know the days of like hosting your own

00:52:15   wordpress I i think our are long over

00:52:18   for all

00:52:19   most everybody you know if you have a

00:52:21   lot of customization or special needs

00:52:23   maybe you might want to look at that

00:52:25   sort of stuff but like the the days of

00:52:28   hosting your own blog especially

00:52:30   maintaining its software i think are

00:52:33   long over

00:52:34   yeah i think so too you know what I had

00:52:36   to do last week and again it is a sort

00:52:37   of just coincidental that it all

00:52:39   happened last week I had to actually

00:52:40   patch movable-type because of a an

00:52:44   exploit I'm kind of surprised you still

00:52:46   can patch your copy given how much

00:52:48   you've modified it

00:52:49   I you know what though I haven't

00:52:51   modified you know it's abstracted enough

00:52:53   for my hacks are plugins and they have a

00:52:57   pretty decent plug-in API that that knew

00:53:00   that the isolates the plug-in code and

00:53:04   most of my really weird hacks are

00:53:07   outside movable-type it is taking

00:53:10   because movable-type is a static site

00:53:12   generator at least the way i use it it's

00:53:14   taking those static files and doing

00:53:15   weird things with them outside

00:53:18   movable-type ah ok and that stuff is

00:53:21   irrelevant as long as movable-type still

00:53:23   spits out valid RSS or atom feeds

00:53:26   install my hacks on top of that stole

00:53:29   still work

00:53:30   are there still any people who like

00:53:32   fight for 14 over the other like if

00:53:33   they're like no Adam is superior to RSS

00:53:35   no RSS is simpler now i don't think so i

00:53:39   think that that whole thing I think

00:53:40   we're all pretending that didn't happen

00:53:42   because like next EML yeah i think so

00:53:45   although i'm not sure i would be

00:53:47   interesting to hear from someone with a

00:53:48   an aggregator which is more popular RSS

00:53:51   2 or Adam well google reader kind of

00:53:56   threw the the balance pretty hard

00:53:58   towards Adam because google reader any

00:54:00   feed that they suck in they convert to

00:54:03   Adam for all the output

00:54:04   mmm i think that that at least was the

00:54:07   case i don't know if it's still I think

00:54:08   it still is I did not know that although

00:54:10   does it does anybody care though if

00:54:11   they'd handle it for you and there's us

00:54:14   the sort of thing google is so good at

00:54:15   that if yours if you are emitting rss2

00:54:19   but everybody's reading your site

00:54:21   through google reader is seeing Google's

00:54:22   Adam translation of it i'll bet it's

00:54:25   very high fidelity is really matter now

00:54:29   I guess I i use ad

00:54:32   I think I'm not even a hundred percent

00:54:34   sure and I free i actually even forget

00:54:36   why i made that choice i mean i have to

00:54:39   actually sure it made sense like in 2003

00:54:41   when we were hot argument but it's there

00:54:44   was something about the actual syntax of

00:54:46   it that i like better

00:54:49   yeah i mean it has some things that it

00:54:51   had some like more more precise

00:54:53   definitions for certain elements like

00:54:56   you know publisher and author updated

00:54:58   with stuff like that like RSS is a

00:54:59   little bit more liberal i think but

00:55:02   before they're really close yeah well

00:55:05   he's only known me it's hey I'm sure

00:55:08   there's gonna be like three people who

00:55:09   are still fighting this fight for

00:55:11   polygamy is no you're wrong about

00:55:13   everything i am i'm i'm i'm embarrassed

00:55:16   i love how much time I spent the

00:55:19   following that whole saga and how

00:55:21   invested i got in it really wanted some

00:55:23   voices the time but I it was you know

00:55:26   that what is it that something something

00:55:28   of small differences like I don't know

00:55:31   in hindsight I cannot think of to tech

00:55:33   to formats that were are so much the

00:55:36   very same thing and so similar in a way

00:55:38   they do because it wasn't even like a

00:55:40   major you know like here's something

00:55:42   that would have been a huge difference

00:55:43   in their boat xml yeah if one was xml

00:55:46   and the other one was json well there

00:55:48   you've got a really interesting

00:55:50   fundamental difference between the right

00:55:53   like if one of them was was like binary

00:55:55   or if one of them was more like pub/sub

00:55:57   like you know push oriented right but

00:56:01   they were both XML I think if you like

00:56:04   cut off the top couple of lines like at

00:56:07   the right below that that what's it

00:56:09   called the the preamble yeah well the

00:56:12   one with the question marks what's that

00:56:13   called that's the xml preamble right

00:56:15   with you know cut off the next two lines

00:56:17   or something like that I think it would

00:56:18   be really hard to even tell it an

00:56:19   eyeball which one was adamant we can

00:56:21   start assess to it was really close and

00:56:24   a minute way more and more namespace

00:56:27   prefix and colons and the other document

00:56:30   type stuff

00:56:31   this is a type of thing where and I i

00:56:33   always forget to do the follow-up but

00:56:35   this is the sort of thing where talk to

00:56:36   listeners are really really good work

00:56:37   collectively there's somebody out there

00:56:39   who remembers all the nitty-gritty

00:56:41   details of the differences i think in

00:56:43   hindsight as I

00:56:44   look at during fireballs are I i still

00:56:46   call it an RSS feed but it's in the atom

00:56:49   format i think the reason i like to add

00:56:51   more than rss2 was the date format that

00:56:55   are our Adam used what to me was a very

00:56:58   same date format i forget which one it

00:57:00   is but it's one of the iso ones and it

00:57:02   goes year month numbered a number and

00:57:06   then greenwich mean time all on a string

00:57:09   and i think i could be wrong but I think

00:57:11   rss2 used like a crazy sort of more

00:57:14   plain text our date format i don't i

00:57:17   don't think that's true better when I

00:57:19   grow up I want to look it up now I don't

00:57:21   look at this point but maybe somebody

00:57:22   can shoot me an email if i'm wrong about

00:57:24   that i thought that the date format

00:57:25   maybe it was the permalinks maybe there

00:57:27   was something that the permalinks I

00:57:29   thought looked better in the atom

00:57:30   I don't know somehow I got caught up in

00:57:33   cared so you have a new podcast let's

00:57:36   talk about it quick

00:57:37   yeah you had called neutral it's a

00:57:39   neutral dot FM and it's a me Casey list

00:57:44   and John siracusa basically sitting

00:57:46   around BS thing about cars

00:57:48   I just notice and you must have done

00:57:51   this right before we got on the air

00:57:53   because I see episode two is up

00:57:55   yeah put it up earlier this afternoon on

00:57:58   ya episode two is up and it's we

00:58:00   actually episode 12 recorded

00:58:02   back-to-back that the first time we were

00:58:04   recording I said alright let's just keep

00:58:05   going we were on such a roll but we

00:58:07   didn't want to release a two-hour-long

00:58:08   first episode so so those are so there's

00:58:12   no follow-up whatsoever because gonna

00:58:14   drive people crazy who who are still

00:58:15   upset the handful of things we got wrong

00:58:17   episode one huh

00:58:19   but yeah and we used to episode 3 last

00:58:21   night i'll be posting that probably a

00:58:22   mid next week it's a lot of fun you know

00:58:25   it's not one of the reasons why we call

00:58:27   it neutral it is kind of to be

00:58:29   understanding you know every other car

00:58:31   podcast it's all about like car news and

00:58:34   horsepower and racing and and all this

00:58:37   stuff and they all have these like he's

00:58:40   like masculine explosive names and

00:58:42   horsepower speed rocket and it's like we

00:58:45   just want let's let's colors neutral and

00:58:48   just have it be like this this you know

00:58:50   simple black-and-white site this simple

00:58:52   logo that does not contain anything on

00:58:54   fire or moving

00:58:56   and and just just three guys chillin out

00:58:59   talking about casual cars and you know

00:59:02   we're talking about like honda accord

00:59:03   that we've owned in the past not not you

00:59:06   know the newest you know crazy

00:59:09   bugatti veyron that was really starting

00:59:11   like the head and it's just fun it's a

00:59:13   it's a fun casual show if you know a lot

00:59:16   about cars and and you come to it

00:59:17   expecting like like high-end car

00:59:21   discussion

00:59:22   you're probably going to be infuriated

00:59:24   at how much we not only don't talk about

00:59:26   that but how much we get wrong about

00:59:28   some of the technical details what we do

00:59:30   talk about but it's it's really for

00:59:33   casual car fans especially people who

00:59:36   are already like fans of us in general

00:59:38   just wanted to hear a skill out and talk

00:59:40   for a while that that's sort of the car

00:59:43   equivalent of the sports thing that

00:59:46   Montero started that I was in last year

00:59:48   the american McCarver right which is

00:59:51   sort of gone ice cold it's sort of

00:59:53   fizzled out but the basic idea was to do

00:59:55   a sports site for non sports fanatics or

00:59:58   just schedule

00:59:58   just schedule

01:00:00   all sports fans which is sort of

01:00:03   underserved right like you go most

01:00:05   sports sites are for people who like eat

01:00:08   sleep and you know and and maybe that's

01:00:10   just the natural order of things that

01:00:11   most tech sites are for people who are

01:00:14   that's their main obsession seems like

01:00:18   that's the same sort of thing where

01:00:19   you're really interested in cars but

01:00:20   it's not your main thing nobody's ever

01:00:22   say marcos main thing is cars because

01:00:24   and that's hot that's how I am I like

01:00:26   cars a lot but I don't listen to any car

01:00:28   podcasts I don't subscribe to any car

01:00:31   magazines

01:00:32   I you know I I like I like cars a lot

01:00:35   but I don't care quite that much to

01:00:38   follow every single detail of the news

01:00:40   every week and and really care about all

01:00:42   these high-end things I'll never even

01:00:43   see syracuse it does a lot of podcasts

01:00:47   he does yeah hey i'm i'm i'm amazing how

01:00:52   much he does because he has a job and a

01:00:54   family like you know we have families we

01:00:56   don't really have real job so it's a

01:00:58   little bit easier for us to wedge the

01:00:59   stuff in I don't know how he does

01:01:01   I don't either and the other thing that

01:01:03   I find interesting about his podcast

01:01:06   what's the word is a proclivity well the

01:01:12   energy output is that prior to getting

01:01:16   into podcasting on a regular basis he

01:01:18   wrote so sporadically he'd write and

01:01:21   massive right delicious feasts but never

01:01:26   really gave you snacks on a regular

01:01:28   basis and i swear this time come from

01:01:30   I just assumed it was the fact that he

01:01:32   didn't have time as he had a full-time

01:01:33   job in that he's so meticulous and

01:01:35   thinks things through that it it wasn't

01:01:37   possible whereas you know like I didn't

01:01:40   even when I did have a real job found it

01:01:42   possible to write keep daring fireball

01:01:45   going weakly in between the time i had

01:01:49   around a real job whereas he seems to

01:01:51   find us you know the time to do these

01:01:53   podcasts that's something I've i find it

01:01:55   exhausting i find it exhausting but i

01:01:57   find it i find doing one show a week to

01:02:02   be like I cannot believe it's time for

01:02:04   the show again because i feel like i

01:02:05   just did last week show yesterday right

01:02:07   yeah and doing doing any more than one

01:02:09   show week I I don't think I can ever do

01:02:11   that like I don't know like I had my

01:02:13   developer

01:02:13   show and I ended that in december and I

01:02:16   wanted to do a car show and I don't you

01:02:18   know we we've been saying this might be

01:02:19   a limited-run you know we might only do

01:02:21   like eight episodes we don't really know

01:02:23   yet we're gonna see what happens when

01:02:24   that time comes but you know I i also

01:02:27   felt like you know what if i want to do

01:02:29   some other topic in the future and I

01:02:30   don't think I would ever run them in

01:02:32   parallel the workload would just be

01:02:33   insane but I mean and one thing that

01:02:37   helps with with with John siracusa is

01:02:39   you know with his show hypercritical

01:02:41   that he also ended in december that man

01:02:43   i love that show that was my favorite

01:02:44   podcast when when he and hypocritical

01:02:48   one of the things he said was that he

01:02:50   was just spending hours researching for

01:02:53   every show beforehand and like when i

01:02:56   was doing building analyze I would

01:02:57   research before you show for maybe 45

01:02:59   minutes and most that was going to the

01:03:01   feedback email and deciding what to talk

01:03:03   about like I couldn't even imagine

01:03:04   finding the time every week to do hours

01:03:07   of Syracuse little research

01:03:09   so knowing that he was that he was prone

01:03:11   to doing way more work than he might

01:03:13   necessarily need to for our car show

01:03:16   Casey and I are arranged all the topics

01:03:18   and we don't tell Jon we don't tell them

01:03:21   anything in advance so what were too big

01:03:23   because we intentionally keep it from

01:03:24   him so that he can't overworked himself

01:03:27   he can't possibly go research anything

01:03:29   so if we say something if especially if

01:03:31   he says something that's technically

01:03:32   incorrect give me to take it easy on

01:03:35   sweet we are intentionally keeping him

01:03:38   in the dark until the very last minute

01:03:39   and I had mixed feelings about the

01:03:42   weather because it was I do think it was

01:03:44   late and run of hypercritical where he

01:03:46   kind of opened up about how much

01:03:48   preparation he did per episode that he

01:03:50   kept it secret before but I don't call

01:03:52   him having talked about it and I also

01:03:54   feel like maybe the longer they did the

01:03:58   show and the the better that ten and

01:04:04   John got it doing it the more research

01:04:08   he did because that's what he knew made

01:04:10   for a good episode of hypercritical

01:04:12   right that it wasn't that it got easier

01:04:14   and he had to do less work / show it was

01:04:18   that he knew what made for a good

01:04:19   episode and that involved a lot more a

01:04:22   lot of research but I had mixed feelings

01:04:23   about because I felt bad on the one hand

01:04:25   that

01:04:25   doing a massive amount of work for it

01:04:27   but on the other hand I felt good

01:04:29   because i thought well thank God that

01:04:30   he's not just winging it and having the

01:04:32   show come off so incredibly articulate

01:04:34   and meticulous records every one of

01:04:36   those shows was like one of his giant

01:04:38   articles and it and its really

01:04:41   remarkable how policy was able to make

01:04:44   those shows with only a few hours of

01:04:46   prep for each one but I mean that was

01:04:48   the amount of work you put into that was

01:04:51   insane but the output was also amazing

01:04:54   it's absolutely agree with everyone

01:04:58   one thing I've thought about with

01:04:59   podcasts and I don't know maybe they're

01:05:01   a there's so many podcasts and that's

01:05:03   great it's a great thing but you kids

01:05:04   can keep up with them but I maybe

01:05:06   somebody's doing it but I feel like

01:05:08   maybe in terms of like the work and the

01:05:11   relentlessness or the I don't want to

01:05:13   call it of doing it every week I feel

01:05:15   like you do have to do it every week or

01:05:17   have some sort of schedule without a

01:05:18   schedule it just doesn't work and weekly

01:05:21   is pretty natural schedule but I've

01:05:24   often wondered maybe maybe one format to

01:05:26   do for a let's say something like

01:05:29   neutral which isn't meant to be like any

01:05:32   of your primary gigs where you guys are

01:05:35   just uses said maybe it'll only be an

01:05:36   8-0 run

01:05:37   what about following that the episodic

01:05:39   TV model of having like seasons where

01:05:42   you're going to do eight shows you plan

01:05:44   it that like you're going to say January

01:05:47   in February we're going to do eight

01:05:50   shows one a week for eight weeks and

01:05:52   then we're going to take a break and

01:05:54   then we're going to come back and we'll

01:05:56   do another eight show run when we feel

01:05:58   like we're ready for it

01:06:00   I feel like that might work in a way

01:06:03   that will just do a show whenever we're

01:06:07   not going to do one every week maybe

01:06:09   we're only going to do 20 per year but

01:06:11   will do them at random you know whenever

01:06:13   we feel like randomly we can get

01:06:15   together I feel like that never works

01:06:17   falls apart because that becomes all do

01:06:19   it sometime soon we'll do it next week

01:06:21   we'll do it next month and then then the

01:06:23   show six months that an episode right

01:06:24   and I also feel like it might help in

01:06:27   the same way that it works for TV shows

01:06:29   to keep people the audience engaged is

01:06:32   ok then you can do with just a little

01:06:34   bit of promotion upfront a week or two

01:06:36   in advance to make sure everybody knows

01:06:37   the show's come

01:06:38   back and then people can get into it and

01:06:41   sort of be ready for the fact if they're

01:06:42   fans of it that'll be one of the show's

01:06:44   they'll have queued up on their phone to

01:06:46   listen to in the car in a way to work

01:06:47   for her two months you know but that you

01:06:50   can't think it might be it might be

01:06:51   better to just do like every two weeks

01:06:53   and just constantly rather than take

01:06:55   these big break so that I feel like the

01:06:57   big breaks but also have a very high

01:07:00   chance of just extending themselves and

01:07:02   the coming years and then you forget

01:07:05   about the show dissolves yeah I whereas

01:07:07   it like if and I think as a podcast

01:07:09   listener listen to podcast all the time

01:07:11   and you know in the car washing dishes

01:07:12   whatever and walking the dog

01:07:15   listen a lot of podcast but there are

01:07:17   more podcasts most of the time I that

01:07:21   come out every week then what I have

01:07:22   time to listen to and I think that's

01:07:24   probably true for a lot of people it's

01:07:25   an annulus and so you know I wouldn't

01:07:28   mind if some of my favorite shows went

01:07:31   to every two weeks instead it's like I'm

01:07:33   not the kind of guy to want to skip an

01:07:34   episode like if a show that I listened

01:07:36   to if it comes out I'm gonna listen to

01:07:39   it and if I can't keep up with the show

01:07:42   i'll just delete it i won't listen to i

01:07:44   won't subscribe to it all good rather

01:07:46   not hear any of it then only listened to

01:07:48   every other episode and maybe that's

01:07:50   just what I'm weird i'm a nerd but

01:07:52   that's how I work so you know if if they

01:07:54   were more shows that weren't weekly but

01:07:58   we're still regular I'd be fine with

01:08:00   that you will catch up on Twitter person

01:08:03   you know I honestly I used to be and I

01:08:06   took up so much time on my data in the

01:08:08   last few months basically everything

01:08:10   started the magazine when my workload

01:08:11   has increased substantially ever since

01:08:14   starting the magazine I i became a

01:08:16   scroll to top for the main timeline

01:08:18   person I still read all my @ replies but

01:08:21   but I I can't read the meantime on

01:08:23   anymore

01:08:24   yeah that's how I I but I've been like

01:08:26   that for a long time and I've usually a

01:08:28   completist although i don't actually

01:08:30   read my email it's like a like a debt in

01:08:33   the backline I theoretically would read

01:08:35   it all but I I never get around to it

01:08:37   but I never do the mark as read i keep

01:08:40   marked unread whereas Twitter I've never

01:08:42   minded the fact that i don't see them

01:08:44   all because you know because Twitter

01:08:47   your timeline isn't everything that's

01:08:48   directed at you specifically so you

01:08:50   don't feel like you are offending

01:08:52   as people by not reading what they

01:08:53   posted publicly to the world but I feel

01:08:57   like there's I feel like and I feel like

01:08:59   that's one of the great things twitter

01:09:01   is done over the years is resist that

01:09:03   urge to give you like an unread count

01:09:06   think that that's intentional it is and

01:09:08   there was so much demand for it

01:09:10   especially like when Twitter was like a

01:09:13   ditz like sort of at the point where it

01:09:16   was still young and malleable but was

01:09:21   old enough and established enough that

01:09:23   it was clearly going to be a huge thing

01:09:25   like it was it been around long enough

01:09:27   that everybody knew this was going to be

01:09:28   a big deal but it was still young enough

01:09:30   that they could have made changes like

01:09:32   kind of switch to an inbox model where

01:09:35   you're expected to read everything in

01:09:36   your in your timeline or even to have

01:09:39   the option that was the thing that

01:09:40   people would say is just give us the

01:09:42   option to do it that way and you can

01:09:44   even you know I even agree that you

01:09:46   should leave it off by default for most

01:09:48   people but give me the option to have a

01:09:49   read and unread count for tweets and

01:09:53   that was that was back when we would

01:09:54   like a splitter to change something and

01:09:56   not be scared by what they would

01:09:57   actually change

01:09:58   alright true there's a track when

01:10:01   changes were usually a good thing right

01:10:03   but I actually agree with that though

01:10:05   that that mindset though because I do

01:10:06   feel that by giving the option to do it

01:10:08   you you implicitly endorse it you're

01:10:11   saying that it's a legitimate way to use

01:10:12   it and they're saying no and it is sort

01:10:14   of like an apple type decision like you

01:10:16   said where they're making the decision

01:10:17   for you

01:10:18   this is the best way to read twitter is

01:10:20   just start with what's going on right

01:10:22   now and growth scroll down until you're

01:10:25   bored and don't worry about catching up

01:10:28   if you're away for a day where they dive

01:10:29   into this to the stream wherever it

01:10:31   happens to be and that's it I'm i guess

01:10:36   i do read all my replies

01:10:38   although I can't say like if I'm on

01:10:40   vacation or on a conference or traveling

01:10:42   or something that I necessarily do

01:10:44   sometimes it gets out of control

01:10:46   yeah but I don't find it that hard to do

01:10:48   that either

01:10:49   it's easy because with that replies

01:10:53   especially because you know like you

01:10:56   have that you have a pretty asymmetric

01:10:58   followed to follow account so i think

01:11:00   people people who

01:11:02   who reply to you on twitter probably

01:11:05   don't implicitly expect a response to

01:11:07   every one of those replies where I was

01:11:09   like you know with with email the kind

01:11:10   of this for most people there's this

01:11:12   implicit expectation that you're going

01:11:14   to respond if somebody takes the time to

01:11:16   compose an email to you then you know

01:11:18   you should probably respond if you don't

01:11:19   want to be a dick and and of course I

01:11:21   just choose to be a dick to everybody

01:11:22   and not respond like I can't

01:11:24   well and I've mentioned this before but

01:11:26   there is something to that's really

01:11:28   really it's almost like evolutionary you

01:11:31   know that it gets to what humans are

01:11:32   good at with twitter as opposed to even

01:11:39   email is that you can do it all with

01:11:41   your eyeballs because you don't have to

01:11:43   open a tweet to read it even matter what

01:11:46   your email program is if you have one

01:11:48   and like most super you can just keep

01:11:49   hitting the spacebar for example to keep

01:11:51   going next message next message

01:11:53   you still have to like move your eyes up

01:11:56   to the top of the screen each time and

01:11:59   even people who are being conscientious

01:12:00   and thinking well this guy's busy or

01:12:03   even if you don't even think somebody's

01:12:04   busy just the fact that it's harder to

01:12:06   write a concise short message then it is

01:12:08   a rambling one and keep it short

01:12:09   Twitter's enforced brevity makes it

01:12:11   possible for i can just read I don't

01:12:14   know what I'm looking at right now my

01:12:15   screen looks like I don't know a dozen

01:12:16   tweets at a time just by moving my eyes

01:12:19   down and it's so much faster it's like

01:12:22   an order of magnitude faster than even

01:12:24   the most efficient email right even if

01:12:27   everybody's email to me was tweet length

01:12:29   it's so much more efficient

01:12:31   well because tweets are constrained to

01:12:33   that land the clients can be designed in

01:12:35   a way that makes it easy to skip a whole

01:12:36   bunch of them as email it could be one

01:12:39   line or it could be some giant

01:12:41   newsletter with a rich layout and

01:12:43   pictures embedded and everything like

01:12:44   you don't know what to expect with email

01:12:45   to the clients have to have these these

01:12:47   you know big flexible windows and

01:12:49   everything and and it's just not the

01:12:50   same at all

01:12:51   yeah totally I what else is going on

01:12:56   this week

01:12:58   not much I don't know I've been busy

01:13:01   working on various stuff and I've kind

01:13:05   of been buried

01:13:07   I've missed most of the news i accept

01:13:08   the apple stock stuff it's just annoyed

01:13:10   me so now I'm so glad to be out of it

01:13:12   now

01:13:13   I here's here's one that I thought was

01:13:18   pretty interesting and I I'll there's

01:13:21   two points to it is this email that's

01:13:23   come out in a legal legal case between I

01:13:26   forget who also involved but the

01:13:27   government's investigating apple and

01:13:29   google a bunch of other companies in

01:13:31   Silicon Valley for a guy i don't know

01:13:34   what you want to call it legally but no

01:13:36   higher thing yeah like and it's like

01:13:38   that it's Annie legal form of collusion

01:13:40   that they've agreed they unofficially

01:13:43   agreed Adobe's involved you know that

01:13:45   they agreed not to poach the other

01:13:47   company's employees and if a guy from

01:13:50   every current employee of Apple came to

01:13:52   let's say Google and applied for a job

01:13:54   that guy was fair game because he

01:13:57   applied but that the each company's

01:13:59   recruiters agreed implicitly not to go

01:14:02   after employees at the other companies

01:14:05   which in itself is apparently illegal

01:14:07   and I you know I think for obvious

01:14:10   reasons it's not it might be good for

01:14:12   these companies but it's certainly not

01:14:13   good for the individual engineers you

01:14:16   know the right such thing in California

01:14:18   has really i think generally pretty good

01:14:21   laws on the books for and you know all

01:14:24   these companies are in California in

01:14:26   California is no non-competes those

01:14:27   exactly i think it goes hand and so

01:14:29   happened that was exactly the examples

01:14:31   that they don't have they don't force

01:14:33   non-competes they're very very liberal

01:14:34   and towards the engineers rights workers

01:14:38   rights but this the one that really

01:14:42   caught my eye though is this one had an

01:14:44   email from did you see this an email to

01:14:47   need jobs to add college and had

01:14:48   colligan being the palm CEO the pc guys

01:14:52   aren't about not being worried about

01:14:54   Apple entering the cell phone market a

01:14:56   couple weeks before the iphone was

01:14:57   announced because pc guys they've spent

01:15:00   a long time I trying to make a good cell

01:15:03   phone pc guys aren't gonna walk right in

01:15:05   and get it

01:15:07   I here's the email that Steve Jobs sent

01:15:11   to bed

01:15:12   this is not satisfactory to apple it is

01:15:17   not just a matter of our employees

01:15:19   deciding they want to join palm they are

01:15:22   being actively recruited using knowledge

01:15:25   supplied by john reuben

01:15:26   and Fred Anderson now that aside jon

01:15:29   rubinstein was I forget his title was it

01:15:33   next but he was one of the guys that

01:15:34   came over from next to apple had worked

01:15:36   with steve jobs for a long time and was

01:15:37   ahead of hardware engineering at Apple

01:15:40   during the early ipod era and when they

01:15:44   really turned around the max and made

01:15:46   max you know aluminum and all sorts of

01:15:49   stuff and he had been in retirement is

01:15:52   living and like a mansion down in Mexico

01:15:54   or something like that and palm got him

01:15:56   to come back to run that and Fred

01:15:57   Anderson was the former CFO at Apple who

01:16:01   kind of got thrown under the bus with

01:16:03   the that options thing that you referred

01:16:07   to in fact dating scandal

01:16:09   yeah he kind of took the fall for that

01:16:11   options backdating thing which keep that

01:16:14   in mind I i'm going to bring up right

01:16:15   back up in a minute with John back to

01:16:19   jobs email with John personally

01:16:21   participating in the recruiting process

01:16:22   we must do whatever we can to stop this

01:16:26   I'm sure you realize the asymmetry in

01:16:30   the financial resources of our

01:16:31   respective companies when you say we

01:16:37   will both just end up paying a lot of

01:16:40   lawyers a lot of money and quote and

01:16:44   then it goes on and and effectively jobs

01:16:46   threatens a patent suit if palm doesn't

01:16:50   agree that their apples going to go

01:16:51   after appt after palm on patent grounds

01:16:54   if Tom doesn't agree to this sort of no

01:16:58   post policy and then bad Mouse a bunch

01:17:01   of patents more or less says what he

01:17:03   said here i guess i should just read it

01:17:04   just for the

01:17:08   when semen sold their handset business

01:17:09   to benq they didn't sell them they're

01:17:12   essential patents but rather just gave

01:17:14   them a license the patents they did sell

01:17:16   the benq are not that great

01:17:18   we looked at them ourselves when they

01:17:20   were for sale I guess you guys felt

01:17:22   differently and bought them we are not

01:17:25   concerned about them at all

01:17:28   my advice is to take a look at our

01:17:29   patent portfolio before you make a final

01:17:31   decision here Steve center right and to

01:17:36   me it's just I loved it in the sense

01:17:39   that it's such classic steve jobs you

01:17:42   know it's it's your thing is shit

01:17:45   our stuff is awesome just do what I want

01:17:47   right these patents you bought your dumb

01:17:49   like that's always that's part of the

01:17:51   jobs like kungfu or the Jedi mind trick

01:17:54   is to somehow convince you that you're

01:17:56   dumb help and everything's black and

01:17:58   white right we took a look at these this

01:18:00   is about you know that I guess the

01:18:02   culligan that said we look we bought

01:18:03   these patents from this Bend I never

01:18:05   heard a benq but who knows they're doing

01:18:06   a bunch of mobile patterns I if you know

01:18:09   we bought them in the jobs and we looked

01:18:11   at him

01:18:11   we decided their shit and I guess you

01:18:13   felt differently and I i think it's such

01:18:18   classic job so I you know I guess I was

01:18:20   amused you know it it's there's so much

01:18:23   character in that email and it's just

01:18:25   kind of a yeah and and not to mention i

01:18:27   love the the lawyer bit to go like

01:18:29   because your palm guides it over just

01:18:31   gonna spend too much money on lawyers

01:18:32   which is usually you know if you're

01:18:34   being threatened legal action the person

01:18:36   who's being threatened and knows that

01:18:38   they would lose or would cost them a

01:18:40   whole lot of money usually that's what

01:18:42   they say oh let's leave the lawyers at

01:18:44   as well we'll figure this out okay

01:18:47   that's not a position of power the it

01:18:50   was coming from there man i was that yet

01:18:54   that you know was fantastic right so

01:18:55   here's Dan Lyons take on it today over

01:18:59   it the the reed whiteread right no more

01:19:02   web to drop that huh right they drop

01:19:04   that when they when they brought down

01:19:06   lines and I says he quotes this and sets

01:19:10   the stage and he has a picture of the

01:19:11   email and then he says apple fan blogger

01:19:14   John Gruber seems to think this letter

01:19:16   is just the coolest thing ever

01:19:18   a quote stone-cold message that shows

01:19:21   quote the man did not beat around the

01:19:23   bush I actually that's typical Dan Lyons

01:19:26   where I I never said it was the coolest

01:19:28   thing ever and he didn't put quotes

01:19:29   around it i didn't say was the coolest

01:19:31   thing ever and I didn't you know I don't

01:19:33   go into deep analysis of everything I

01:19:36   link to I he's saying here but wait a

01:19:41   minute let's look at what happened here

01:19:42   jobs one jobs propose something to Palm

01:19:44   that was not only wrong but also quite

01:19:46   likely illegal as colleague and put it

01:19:48   to call again refused to do something

01:19:51   illegal three is punishment jobs

01:19:53   threatened to drag palm in two years of

01:19:54   bogus patent suits he was perfectly

01:19:56   willing to use parentheses abused ? the

01:20:00   legals the court system to hurt arrival

01:20:02   and then online system we're supposed to

01:20:05   see jobs is some kind of hero

01:20:07   i I didn't say we're supposed to see him

01:20:09   as a hero for that and I didn't pass any

01:20:11   real judgment on it and i would say that

01:20:13   saying that the letter of the email was

01:20:15   stone cold is whether you think jobs is

01:20:18   a complete asshole for it or that it's

01:20:20   funny or that you think he was

01:20:21   completely in the right to do it i think

01:20:23   everybody could agree it was a pretty

01:20:24   stone-cold email right yeah that that's

01:20:28   ice cold

01:20:29   I like that's all I wrote I didn't say

01:20:31   it was cool you know and in fact if you

01:20:33   want me to do it analyzed it a little

01:20:34   bit i would actually say that in a sense

01:20:37   it's probably that's probably the worst

01:20:39   of steve jobs and that it is i don't

01:20:44   know what's the word impetuous you know

01:20:47   it's it's reckless right it is that's a

01:20:50   reckless thing and here's the thing

01:20:52   about it

01:20:53   ah i was emailing someone else about it

01:20:55   today and they were date somebody else

01:20:57   had emailed me a friend email and so

01:20:58   what patterns do you think Jobs was

01:21:00   threatening palm with and I said you

01:21:02   know what he probably didn't have any

01:21:03   patents in mind he was just making the

01:21:05   threat and if it ever came to it he'd go

01:21:06   and say find some patterns into it right

01:21:08   but he didn't have any patents in mind

01:21:10   and he clearly didn't here's the thing

01:21:12   he clearly didn't go to apple legal and

01:21:15   say find me some patents to go after

01:21:18   palm because i want to write this email

01:21:19   because if he did even if they had the

01:21:21   patents that they could threaten them

01:21:23   with if he had gone to apple legal

01:21:25   surely Apple legal would have said you

01:21:26   can't put that in writing because

01:21:28   sending an email like that making a

01:21:30   threat like that is illegal and you

01:21:32   certainly don't want to put

01:21:33   writing right like I think it's fairly

01:21:35   clear that Steve Jobs didn't run that

01:21:37   email by anybody

01:21:38   oh you just wrote it I mean that's why

01:21:40   it's so amusing to people i guess who

01:21:42   follow you know him and and and hit the

01:21:45   his company in this whole business is

01:21:47   like yeah you gotta give the guy credit

01:21:49   he had balls and there there there are

01:21:52   not that many people in our industry who

01:21:54   will speak that frankly who are in a

01:21:55   position of power i think his friend

01:21:58   Larry also known as one they really

01:22:00   aren't a whole lot of a whole lot more

01:22:01   and it's silly its I I feel like it

01:22:06   maybe it's I don't like an East Coast

01:22:08   thing is that I feel like it's a

01:22:09   cultural thing of some sort

01:22:11   we're like either you love that attitude

01:22:13   as a spectator or it or it's off-putting

01:22:17   even then a nicer love it right I

01:22:20   certainly wouldn't have even if he had

01:22:22   said if he had sent me an email and said

01:22:24   John I've read your site for a long time

01:22:26   never asked your opinion before but

01:22:28   here's the thing i want to send this

01:22:29   email to get colleague and you think you

01:22:31   think I should i would have had to say

01:22:32   well it's pretty funny but I don't think

01:22:34   you should send that because i don't

01:22:36   know i don't think you know I don't

01:22:38   think you should be making legal threats

01:22:41   like this in an email i would have to

01:22:42   you know I think anybody would have said

01:22:45   that and I do think that in a sense that

01:22:47   that sort of reckless impetuousness was

01:22:49   the worst of steve jobs for apple and

01:22:51   kind of made him a little bit ill suited

01:22:54   to run them the larger and larger they

01:22:56   got and I think it's the exact sort of

01:22:58   thing that got them into the trouble

01:23:00   with those options being backdated like

01:23:03   I don't think he wasn't trying to cheat

01:23:05   the system I think per se

01:23:07   he just wasn't concerned he just wanted

01:23:10   what he wanted and and obviously you

01:23:15   know I think in hindsight the way that

01:23:16   whole options thing played out you know

01:23:18   got very very careful they're really

01:23:19   getting in big trouble and other people

01:23:21   did you know have to get thrown under

01:23:24   the bus

01:23:25   I don't really know what I like I don't

01:23:27   know about the options the comment on at

01:23:28   all because I I don't know what was

01:23:30   going on and how they effectively like

01:23:32   you racing dates on some options and

01:23:34   said that the board the

01:23:36   approved the changing of these dates

01:23:38   when the board had not approved at the

01:23:40   board ended up proving this change on

01:23:41   the dates after they changed all the

01:23:44   dates alka I don't think they like in

01:23:48   general the guy i think what one of the

01:23:49   things that made Steve so compelling to

01:23:52   pay attention to is is that he was that

01:23:55   reckless and and that most of the time

01:23:57   it worked for him like he was very very

01:24:00   good at breaking rules just enough to be

01:24:06   interesting and to get ahead but not

01:24:08   enough to really get himself in trouble

01:24:10   alright and you can see how that mindset

01:24:11   and that boldness would be great at the

01:24:15   negotiating table in a room where you're

01:24:17   just talking to people right where

01:24:19   nothing is being recorded right and it's

01:24:21   not so good when you're sending emails

01:24:23   that are in a system that can be brought

01:24:25   up for years later exactly in a way that

01:24:28   you know Tim Cook is never gonna send

01:24:30   that email right and I feel like it's

01:24:33   actually in a way that Tim Cook is you

01:24:36   know and I'm not trying to argue here

01:24:38   that Apple is better off that Steve Jobs

01:24:40   is dead or that Steve Jobs isn't the CEO

01:24:43   I but that there are trade-offs involved

01:24:46   and there are certain ways where I think

01:24:48   it's clear that Tim Cook is better at

01:24:50   CEO because he's not impetuous I mean

01:24:54   he's he's more level-headed and and it's

01:24:57   going to work for end against apple and

01:24:59   long-term like Steve's craziness really

01:25:02   brought a lot of the company and really

01:25:04   was necessary to achieve a lot of what

01:25:07   they achieved I I still can't believe I

01:25:09   don't know how much steve was involved i

01:25:11   have to imagine it was it was a lot i

01:25:13   still can't believe in fairly recent

01:25:16   some of the later things he did that

01:25:18   itunes match is it would that work so

01:25:21   that's legal that he actually to go to

01:25:22   or somebody negotiated that with the

01:25:25   record companies i don't know what

01:25:27   that's like that's the kind of thing

01:25:29   that it wasn't too far before he died

01:25:32   but I I assume he was involved in that

01:25:35   because the kind of crazy negotiation

01:25:37   that you know now the record companies

01:25:40   are allowing amazon and google to do

01:25:42   very similar things but i think only

01:25:44   because Apple did at first and now you

01:25:46   want it were and they want to keep you

01:25:48   know for the same reason that the

01:25:49   companies gave amazonmp3 drm free stuff

01:25:52   first is that is that they don't want

01:25:55   Apple to be too powerful in that

01:25:56   industry really don't want to be holding

01:25:58   one company so they you know Apple got

01:26:00   out of them and then eventually they

01:26:02   gave the other companies to help keep

01:26:04   apple and check i think you know I think

01:26:06   I'm sure that if you know the just a

01:26:08   book about Apple's go various

01:26:11   negotiations over the last 10 years with

01:26:13   the record companies would probably be a

01:26:15   pretty good book out I just the art

01:26:17   record media companies let's say but

01:26:19   yeah it that the original ones and i'm

01:26:24   sure they were hard to just the original

01:26:26   ones to get the the original itunes

01:26:27   store off the ground I'm sure we are

01:26:29   fascinating and work hard and you know

01:26:31   and that jobs single being a personality

01:26:33   a large part of it but it clearly that

01:26:37   was a lot easier because Apple was

01:26:38   coming at it from the perspective of

01:26:40   we're just little old Apple our ipods

01:26:44   only work on Max and Max only have 2.5

01:26:47   percent of the market share and Ammon

01:26:50   and they've actually I forget where

01:26:52   that's come out but somewhere that's

01:26:54   actually come out where I know that

01:26:56   that's actually that was actually part

01:26:57   of their pitch to the record labels was

01:26:59   what's the worst that could happen you

01:27:03   know even if this thing because the Reno

01:27:04   the record company people didn't even

01:27:05   understand the technology involved and

01:27:07   what's the worst that could happen if

01:27:09   somehow everybody who has this itunes

01:27:11   software can get access to all the music

01:27:13   on the thing it's still only 2.5 percent

01:27:16   of the market it's just this tiny little

01:27:20   sliver you know but that you know wisely

01:27:24   and you know not accidentally nothing in

01:27:27   the contracts ever said that itunes was

01:27:30   going to be mac only forever

01:27:32   I said that and that all of the record

01:27:34   people just assumed that it was because

01:27:37   that's all apple ever did is make stuff

01:27:39   for their own hardware devices and I

01:27:42   feel like you know taking it back to the

01:27:45   beginning of apples success really

01:27:48   actually being a hindrance in many ways

01:27:50   now like the things they've tried to try

01:27:54   to negotiate now with some of the big

01:27:55   companies like they're the TV deals for

01:27:57   apple TV &

01:27:58   and you know why we have itunes match

01:28:00   for music and not from movies or TV

01:28:01   quite yet

01:28:03   LTV sort of sometimes and yeah you know

01:28:06   we're seeing now like anything to do

01:28:09   with TV where I think this is really

01:28:10   what's holding it back is now all these

01:28:14   companies are afraid to give Apple too

01:28:15   much power because they see what Apple

01:28:19   is capable of now that they're big and

01:28:20   successful and they don't want Apple to

01:28:24   cut them out or to take all the profit

01:28:28   out of the business and I think too that

01:28:31   it's in and that's what I mean and

01:28:33   that's exactly the point that I wanted

01:28:35   to make to that I think that win like at

01:28:37   iTunes Match two years ago with Apple

01:28:41   being the Apple we know today the

01:28:42   industry Goliath is such a more

01:28:44   surprising win because they didn't sneak

01:28:46   it in through the back door like there's

01:28:48   no more hey we're just a little apple

01:28:50   you write what we really care what we do

01:28:52   it to me to there's also a factor that

01:28:54   I'm sure plays into it which is that

01:28:57   Apple as a sort of mystique that you

01:28:59   negotiate with apple and no matter what

01:29:01   you think looking at the offer apple

01:29:03   always wins right so and did you see the

01:29:08   thing recently it was this great New

01:29:10   Yorker profile about this guy this this

01:29:13   professional like stage pickpocket in

01:29:15   Las Vegas is the hollow something that's

01:29:21   my google this hollow pocket the great

01:29:26   profile of this guy Apollo Robbins so

01:29:29   he's a professional pickpocket but he

01:29:30   doesn't steal things from people he does

01:29:32   it is i can act and he'll go and and

01:29:34   it's just amazing I mean you got a

01:29:36   google this guy Apollo Robbins down and

01:29:40   see the video of the way that it works

01:29:42   but the articles by adam green it starts

01:29:47   out so great the edges are just going to

01:29:49   read the opening it's a real long

01:29:50   article so I'm not spoiling it a few

01:29:54   years ago at a Las Vegas Convention for

01:29:56   a magician Penn Jillette of the Act penn

01:29:58   and teller was introduced to a

01:29:59   soft-spoken young man named Apollo

01:30:01   Robbins who has a reputation as a

01:30:03   pickpocket of almost supernatural

01:30:04   ability Gillette who ranks pick who

01:30:07   ranks pickpocket says

01:30:09   quote a few notches below hypnotists on

01:30:12   the showbiz totem pole and try to rank

01:30:14   them was holding court at a table of

01:30:16   colleagues and he asked Robbins for a

01:30:18   demonstration ready to be unimpressed

01:30:20   Robbins demurred claiming that he felt

01:30:24   uncomfortable working in front of other

01:30:26   magicians he pointed out comma since

01:30:29   Gillette was wearing only shorts and a

01:30:31   sports shirt he wouldn't have much to

01:30:33   work with

01:30:34   come on Gillette said steal something

01:30:37   from me again

01:30:38   Robin's begged off but he offered to do

01:30:40   a trick instead he instructed Gillette

01:30:42   to place a ring that he was wearing on a

01:30:45   piece of paper and trace its outline

01:30:47   with a pen by now a small crowd gathered

01:30:50   Gillette removed his ring put it down on

01:30:52   the paper and unclip the pen from his

01:30:54   shirt and lean forward preparing to draw

01:30:57   after a moment he froze and looked up

01:31:00   his face was pale block you

01:31:04   he said and slumped into a chair Robbins

01:31:08   held up a thin cylindrical object the

01:31:11   cartridge from Gillette spin right wow

01:31:15   is it i mean and the thing now here's

01:31:17   the thing that made me think about this

01:31:18   story is that it's the idea that if you

01:31:22   met this guy or if you met Penn Jillette

01:31:24   who you know is a magician and he starts

01:31:26   telling me what you know to do something

01:31:28   you know he's gonna get the best of you

01:31:30   write like you know that he's going to

01:31:32   fool you because he's the reason the

01:31:33   magician and he's done the trick

01:31:35   a thousand times right like so I I feel

01:31:40   like when other companies negotiate with

01:31:44   Apple they feel like they just know that

01:31:45   they're going to get their pocket pic ok

01:31:48   it is probably pretty safe assumption

01:31:49   right and that just like a magician

01:31:52   who's going to make it harder and harder

01:31:54   and say like look I know that you think

01:31:56   that I'm gonna cheat you out of this I'm

01:31:58   going to get your thing i'm going to

01:31:59   take your wallet right out of your

01:32:00   pocket so he's gonna do I'm gonna be a

01:32:02   blindfold myself here put take this

01:32:04   burlap sack put my head in the sack

01:32:06   doesn't matter what you do

01:32:08   they're still going to get you you know

01:32:09   like no matter what terms Apple puts in

01:32:11   I because you gotta figure Lee apples

01:32:14   not going to enter a bad deal for them

01:32:15   right you know they're they're obviously

01:32:18   you know they've proven that they're

01:32:19   pretty good at negotiating to know

01:32:22   that the breakdown in my analogy though

01:32:24   is that I think the music industry has

01:32:26   done very well by itunes as well now the

01:32:29   music industry might disagree because

01:32:30   they want like all of the money but I

01:32:33   feel like itunes might have saved them

01:32:35   from out now

01:32:37   bankruptcy or dissolution like the

01:32:39   entire structure i think i think you're

01:32:41   totally right

01:32:42   and i also agree that they don't really

01:32:43   see it that way you know they they see

01:32:46   most of most of the public remarks we've

01:32:49   seen and the stories we've heard and

01:32:50   from various accounts of meetings and

01:32:52   stuff most of what we've seen indicates

01:32:54   that most of the big labels do think

01:32:57   that itunes was like a bad thing for

01:32:59   them and that it took over the industry

01:33:00   from the minute it did take over a good

01:33:02   amount of the control but at the time

01:33:06   that itunes came out piracy was so big

01:33:09   and all of the other paid services were

01:33:12   flopping like crazy and so it's really

01:33:15   hard to argue that there was a bright

01:33:18   future without itunes in 2003 or

01:33:21   whenever it came out right there plant

01:33:24   their plan more or less i think boiled

01:33:25   down to somehow figure out a way to stop

01:33:28   piracy right and that they still believe

01:33:30   that that was possible in their minds

01:33:32   they think that there was a way somebody

01:33:34   had it some clever guy with a beard

01:33:36   could have figured it out that there was

01:33:39   a way to stop piracy and then things

01:33:41   will go back to the way they were

01:33:42   which was beautiful explore as Apple's

01:33:45   argument and this am I making on this

01:33:47   isn't my analysis is explicitly how

01:33:49   Steve Jobs pissed pitched it on stage

01:33:51   was not that you're going to beat piracy

01:33:53   but that you can design something easier

01:33:56   than piracy are you compete with it

01:33:58   right compete with it in terms of being

01:34:00   convenient and fast and available and

01:34:03   accurate so that if you type a certain

01:34:05   song name you getting the actual song

01:34:07   and have it come with the album art and

01:34:10   and that Senator doesn't guarantee the

01:34:12   quality and everything it's not right he

01:34:14   accidentally in Spanish or anything you

01:34:15   make it better

01:34:16   people will pay 99 cents for it exactly

01:34:18   at least right at least enough of them

01:34:21   will that it's better than the zero

01:34:22   dollars that they were heading towards

01:34:24   me

01:34:24   that's right exactly like you because

01:34:26   they the future they were really heading

01:34:28   to is one where one person somewhere by

01:34:31   the CD and everybody has a copy of all

01:34:33   the music

01:34:34   every album sells three copy the same

01:34:36   crappy often three people who are trying

01:34:39   to be the first to get uploaded a gift

01:34:42   alright let me do the second sponsor

01:34:43   second sponsor I know you've never heard

01:34:45   of this company's brand new company

01:34:47   called talks and I never heard of them

01:34:50   ah I they make a source roast and ship

01:34:57   coffee now everybody I i kid i kid

01:34:59   because they've been as strong supporter

01:35:01   of the talk show for the last few months

01:35:04   here's the quote i want to i have i've

01:35:06   been thinking about this i'm going to go

01:35:07   back to this quote from andy warhol

01:35:09   talking about coca-cola is a quote from

01:35:11   Andy Warhol's coca-cola what's great

01:35:14   about this country is that America

01:35:16   started the tradition where the richest

01:35:17   consumers by essentially the same things

01:35:20   as the poorest you can be watching TV

01:35:22   and see coca-cola and you know that the

01:35:24   president drinks coke was Taylor drinks

01:35:27   coke and just think you can drink Coke

01:35:30   to coke is coke and no amount of money

01:35:32   can get you a better coat than the one

01:35:34   the bum on the street corner is drinking

01:35:36   all the cokes are the same and all the

01:35:38   cokes are good Liz Taylor knows it

01:35:41   the president knows it the bum knows it

01:35:43   and you know it i love that quote yeah I

01:35:45   love it too

01:35:47   and to me the way it relates to talks is

01:35:49   this and it's it's this sort of

01:35:51   mass-market luxury items right that in

01:35:56   the old days you know let's go back two

01:35:58   three four hundred years only like kings

01:36:00   and and landowners could have like the

01:36:02   best of anything and everybody else

01:36:04   lived with like dirt floors and one

01:36:06   shirt that they had to like so

01:36:09   themselves

01:36:10   here's the thing you can buy the best

01:36:12   coffee in the world and you don't have

01:36:14   to pay more than a reasonable amount for

01:36:17   the coffee you get at the supermarket to

01:36:19   get it you just go to talk start or do

01:36:21   x.org sign up for a free trial

01:36:25   see for yourself the free trial to me is

01:36:27   key because then you don't take my word

01:36:28   for you can believe it but what you're

01:36:30   getting is the best coffee in the world

01:36:32   i mean it is just phenomenal and it's

01:36:35   you know you're not paying an arm and a

01:36:37   leg for your not paying you're not

01:36:38   having to hire someone to roast coffee

01:36:40   for you or something like that they do

01:36:42   all this work

01:36:43   and you're getting a world-class stuff

01:36:46   and you don't have to worry about it

01:36:47   anymore it's never in the back your mind

01:36:49   you have to sit there and think i could

01:36:50   be drinking better coffee instead you

01:36:53   just have it and it just shows up at

01:36:54   your house you don't even have to leave

01:36:55   and the end for me that's this is going

01:36:57   to be a bigger and bigger deal it's like

01:36:58   I swear to god it's like 13 degrees here

01:37:00   actually up I not leaving the house to

01:37:04   like go get more coffee i I'd it

01:37:07   couldn't be better just the fact that

01:37:09   I've right downstairs in my kitchen I've

01:37:10   got a sealed-up bag of talks coffee to

01:37:12   start my day I I I just can't imagine

01:37:16   how it could be a better service the

01:37:18   more i think about talks the more i I'm

01:37:19   just blown away by how the fact that I I

01:37:21   just can't even imagine how it could be

01:37:23   any better I the other thought I haven't

01:37:26   talked to it and it happens to me every

01:37:28   single day that I make honks coffee and

01:37:30   sit here and work on during fireball is

01:37:32   I'm always I make coffee i make about

01:37:34   three cups at a time that's about enough

01:37:37   caffeine for me I'm always a little bit

01:37:40   sad when i go to pour and I do this

01:37:43   every time I go to pour a little more

01:37:44   and it ends up i'm already out of it i

01:37:46   thought i thought i was on like cup too

01:37:48   and I had one more and then I think to

01:37:51   myself well I should go brew another pot

01:37:53   now that's just way that's too much you

01:37:54   know that you that you know it's a

01:37:56   little different booths but you can

01:37:57   definitely have too much coffee and it

01:37:59   it can turn you off so i kinda have to

01:38:01   you know you gotta race it out but it's

01:38:03   a little sadness everyday when i when i

01:38:04   finish my ipod talks and and that's a

01:38:08   good problem to have

01:38:09   oh yeah song start org go there and sign

01:38:12   up for the free trial one thing i love

01:38:15   about talks and actually point i think i

01:38:19   think this week yet they sponsored my

01:38:20   site this week i think i don't know i

01:38:23   hope i get us wrong yet was this week

01:38:25   alright complete coincidence that you're

01:38:27   the guest on the show and tour 2421 spot

01:38:29   we just as good sponsors really honestly

01:38:31   yeah and one thing you know people

01:38:34   always ask first of all I'd to prove it

01:38:36   to preface this is a fantastic interview

01:38:39   with LED flash minh on his new podcast

01:38:42   do the new disrupters which is on mule

01:38:44   yeah you know and I just I anything to

01:38:46   it before the show when is making me

01:38:48   sick he is is Hannah he's all I've

01:38:51   always been a huge fan of Glenn's work

01:38:53   but he's like on fire lately and parties

01:38:55   DS the editors everybody

01:38:57   dezeen he's he's got this new podcast I

01:39:00   linked it up today because he had my pal

01:39:02   gym kudos on that this week's episode I

01:39:04   almost linked up the tanks episode but I

01:39:07   really kind of felt like well I I didn't

01:39:10   want to put a disclaimer and about tongs

01:39:11   being but it was it was a great episode

01:39:14   though I did anyway what one of the

01:39:17   things I loved about it was that that

01:39:20   Tony of tonks he talked a lot about how

01:39:23   modern coffee consumer culture is really

01:39:26   a gadget fetish of all these different

01:39:29   coffee brewing equipment and and the

01:39:32   rituals and the techniques and and the

01:39:33   really need agree details of how you

01:39:35   make it and and a lot of it matters a

01:39:37   lot of it doesn't and and i've often

01:39:40   wanted

01:39:41   I've thought about for years i guess now

01:39:44   everybody can steal my idea I thought

01:39:45   about for years doing a series of posts

01:39:48   on my site of actually try actually

01:39:50   setting up real blind taste tests for

01:39:54   different things like doesn't matter

01:39:56   whether you wet the aeropress filter

01:39:57   before you use it you know like all the

01:39:59   stuff that i'm kinda skeptical like

01:40:01   whether it matters or not and I you know

01:40:04   actually have like a real like real

01:40:06   tasters and a real double-blind set up

01:40:07   I'll probably never do it that's a heck

01:40:10   of a lot of work and set up in people

01:40:11   but I i really want somebody to do this

01:40:14   because there is so much of it that's

01:40:17   that's unnecessary I don't believe in

01:40:19   the wedding the filters

01:40:20   neither do I&I I you know cuz i don't

01:40:23   actually I don't understand how that

01:40:24   could make a damn bit of difference i

01:40:26   really don't and a but i would love for

01:40:28   someone to run a test like that if if

01:40:29   somebody ran that the test that you're

01:40:31   proposing and they said you know what it

01:40:33   does make a difference then I would do

01:40:35   it right i would start

01:40:36   yeah but like I i tried it like with

01:40:38   with the Chemex III own almost every

01:40:41   popular method for brewing drip coffee i

01:40:44   have a chemex a vacuum pot of course I

01:40:47   have the air press and and all sorts of

01:40:48   other other lesser-known ones and and

01:40:51   what I use every day's the aeropress

01:40:53   this $25 plastic plunger thing and and

01:40:57   so you know people always ask me what

01:41:00   kind of coffee it's what kind of coffee

01:41:02   maker should i get is kind of like

01:41:03   asking a professional photographer what

01:41:04   kind of camera they have like it's it it

01:41:07   matters less than you think this is

01:41:09   and and usually it's the wrong question

01:41:12   really is especially since I guess

01:41:16   they're getting better maybe but the

01:41:17   vast majority of commercial coffee

01:41:19   makers are incapable of making good

01:41:21   coffee and they're all end in reality

01:41:23   the results from them are are really

01:41:25   quite similar usually not to be snobby

01:41:27   about it but that there's some basic

01:41:28   physics involved that the water

01:41:30   temperature just never even gets close

01:41:31   enough to being hot enough and so it

01:41:33   doesn't matter what kind of coffee you

01:41:34   put in it's never gonna really get the

01:41:37   most out of the coffee or the problem i

01:41:39   have with them is that I I'd like to use

01:41:41   a good ratio of coffee like the the scaa

01:41:45   ratio and usually that ratio if you

01:41:48   actually use it to make more than a few

01:41:49   cups of coffee and red pot usually the

01:41:51   filter basket will overflow which can be

01:41:56   which would be a real moment it is to me

01:41:59   a few times like that relatives houses

01:42:01   at that's always fun so might whenever

01:42:04   people ask me you know what what should

01:42:06   i do to make good coffee

01:42:09   I used to not really have a very good

01:42:10   answer for them because i used to live a

01:42:13   roaster so mad my answer was well I have

01:42:16   really good coffee because i love arrest

01:42:17   expect you don't have this potential so

01:42:19   try to find something good and and in

01:42:21   most places it's the reality is most

01:42:23   places where most people live there

01:42:25   isn't a good restaurant nearby so my

01:42:28   solution now is you need three things

01:42:30   you need a clicky keyboard a sodastream

01:42:33   know what you need you need a burr

01:42:35   grinder and and that can be anywhere

01:42:38   from 60 to 200 bucks my preferred one is

01:42:41   200 bucks the brats a virtuoso it is

01:42:43   fantastic but there's there's a few that

01:42:46   are like in the sixty dollar range that

01:42:47   I think I i haven't used them people

01:42:49   said a pretty good too so that's fine

01:42:51   you got a burr grinder to grind fine you

01:42:55   get an aeropress for 25 bucks and you

01:42:57   get talks and that's it that you then

01:42:59   you're done like then you have a great

01:43:01   coffee and you know the grinders little

01:43:04   bit expensive but then but you know you

01:43:06   don't have to buy this like

01:43:07   three-hundred-dollar coffeemaker you

01:43:09   know they're in there is no integrated

01:43:11   system there's no cartridges of anything

01:43:13   special at all the cartridge machines

01:43:16   give you stale coffee that's pretty

01:43:17   great i mean you know it's like like

01:43:19   there's there's no weird gimmicks or

01:43:21   tricks it's just putting good

01:43:23   coffee into a method to extract the

01:43:24   flavor decently and that method happened

01:43:26   to cost twenty-five dollars and and

01:43:29   that's it the answer is really that

01:43:30   simple and I you can do it for even

01:43:33   cheaper you can you let me just by

01:43:35   having fresh coffee good starting with

01:43:38   good coffee and spore you know what is

01:43:41   200 degree water over

01:43:43   yeah.i liketo a pour-over filter cone

01:43:44   you can get one of those for like 11 box

01:43:46   right on and and pour overs have a

01:43:49   higher tolerance for bad grinders so you

01:43:52   know like the aeropress I'd say you need

01:43:54   a fine grind I my grinder I had I had

01:43:57   cleaned it I i I'd improperly reassemble

01:44:00   it earlier this week and so for a couple

01:44:02   days the grind was was not getting finds

01:44:05   a way to course it was like stuck at the

01:44:06   highest setting and what happens then

01:44:07   when you when you use to course of a

01:44:09   grind with their open totally change the

01:44:12   flavor it makes it weaker and almost

01:44:15   like a little more sour or little more

01:44:17   tart because it's like it's missing some

01:44:19   of the some of the depth that I'm

01:44:22   probably describing it wrong i don't

01:44:23   want to sound like a wine taster right

01:44:25   there is something really look there is

01:44:28   something weird about coffee that's

01:44:29   unlike anything else to me which is that

01:44:32   if you make it too weak

01:44:33   it tastes worse but it tastes worse in

01:44:36   some ways in a stronger flavored way

01:44:38   right well yeah and some of that like

01:44:41   sometimes the that the worst-tasting

01:44:43   elements will be extracted more right in

01:44:46   badly made coffee or you know like that

01:44:48   there's things that like that going to

01:44:50   go into as opposed to say let's say like

01:44:52   like liquor where if you just don't have

01:44:54   a taste for say bourbon straight that

01:44:59   watering it down is going to might make

01:45:01   it a lot more palatable or even

01:45:03   enjoyable that that coffee that's too

01:45:06   weak

01:45:07   ritz it's worse yeah because it has no

01:45:10   taste but because like you said it

01:45:12   extracts the wrong tastes and not you

01:45:14   know that there's actual snatcher

01:45:16   sweetness to coffee that just never gets

01:45:18   out etc one of my favorite treats are

01:45:21   quoted before but one of my favorite

01:45:22   tweets with somebody who tweeted dr.

01:45:24   listener who said that you know it

01:45:26   always taken his coffee with sugar until

01:45:28   he tried talks and then try it without

01:45:30   sugar and it was the first time he

01:45:32   didn't feel like you need to put sugar

01:45:33   in his coffee

01:45:34   exactly i mean that's that that

01:45:35   encapsulates it so much

01:45:36   like great coffee does not need anything

01:45:40   added to it right and and the other and

01:45:42   I think casual people have the

01:45:44   misconception that you we we go on and

01:45:45   on about about toxin how great it is and

01:45:47   they go around the world and that people

01:45:49   think my god that coffee is probably so

01:45:51   strong that it has the all of these and

01:45:53   they associate strength with these

01:45:55   bitter unpleasant taste that they think

01:45:57   is what strong coffee is which is really

01:46:01   just you know poorly made or over

01:46:03   roasted coffee or stale coffee I that

01:46:07   those are the taste that are exaggerated

01:46:09   when it's actually i think the opposite

01:46:11   it's these these two completely

01:46:13   different flavors that really come out

01:46:15   oh yeah definitely and and you know most

01:46:17   people have never had really great

01:46:20   coffee that could be drank black and and

01:46:23   would still tastes really good you know

01:46:25   and you know people there's a whole pile

01:46:29   of BS around around coffee marketing in

01:46:33   the mass-market like an in grocery

01:46:34   stores and you know convenience store

01:46:37   chains and everything and there's all

01:46:38   the all this marketing that goes into

01:46:40   making people think that is a trader

01:46:44   joes coffee is better than dunkin donuts

01:46:46   coffee and dunkin donuts coffee is

01:46:48   better than 7 11 coffee and all this

01:46:50   stuff and and the reality is almost all

01:46:53   the almost all the coffee that most

01:46:54   people ever heard of his terrible and i

01:46:57   have is not cause it's it's not because

01:46:59   of some grand conspiracy it's because

01:47:01   it's really hard to make great coffee at

01:47:04   that large of a scale and you can't make

01:47:07   it so its shelf stable for very long i

01:47:10   have a certain weak spot for dunkin

01:47:11   donuts coffee i don't know i wouldn't

01:47:13   heal it is good coffee but I do i do

01:47:16   think that it's I don't know there's and

01:47:18   it is also to me it's also very like

01:47:21   McDonald's famously is supposed to be

01:47:23   it's very concerned about their coffee

01:47:25   but that mcdonald's food but at dunkin

01:47:27   donuts coffee always tastes exactly the

01:47:30   same doesn't matter what where you are

01:47:32   what dunkin donuts to me it always

01:47:33   tastes exactly the same I that I

01:47:35   wouldn't go out of my way to get dunkin

01:47:37   donuts but in a pinch where I had my

01:47:39   choice between you know two or three

01:47:42   chain places to buy coffee i would go to

01:47:45   dunkin down

01:47:46   I mean good coffee is a lot more like

01:47:49   fresh produce

01:47:50   in that you kinda can't make it that

01:47:54   good without introducing some

01:47:55   inconsistency because of you know you

01:47:57   like your kind of closer to the metal

01:47:59   everything's a little more fresh little

01:48:01   more small batch usually like you like

01:48:05   coffee is more like tomatoes like you'll

01:48:07   have some years were just tomatoes are

01:48:09   better that year you know I copies the

01:48:11   same way like coffee from certain

01:48:13   countries in certain you like wine from

01:48:16   certain countries it's better than other

01:48:18   countries if you have taste that are

01:48:19   certain way certain years will be better

01:48:22   than other years you know certain farms

01:48:24   within those countries will be a little

01:48:26   bit that other ones like it's all

01:48:27   there's so much that goes into it and

01:48:29   edit and it's it's very hard to make

01:48:31   coffee consistently the same way all the

01:48:34   time without blending the whole bunch of

01:48:36   different origins together and

01:48:37   standardizing everything and and kind of

01:48:39   removing all the personality from it and

01:48:41   making it just as one consistent bland

01:48:43   product like McDonald's hamburger you

01:48:46   would you like to talk about Pete's to

01:48:47   do you can you take Pete I only ever

01:48:50   have Pete when i'm at WWDC because there

01:48:54   was you know if you go to the one-third

01:48:56   and howard orders to the others like the

01:48:59   one across from the W and the other one

01:49:01   liked down the street from Moscow Niall

01:49:03   on that that cross street

01:49:05   I'll see I don't know that one I know

01:49:07   the one at third nettles further over

01:49:09   there by the w in the same wages

01:49:11   yes so that Pete's is you know it in my

01:49:15   opinion is very similar to starbucks but

01:49:17   better so it it's it's still the same

01:49:21   general category of store it still has

01:49:23   the same challenges of you know it's

01:49:25   still pretty pretty large cooperation

01:49:28   you know no one is roasting in that

01:49:29   store meet the people who are brewing in

01:49:32   that store and not you know the

01:49:33   employees might not be very particularly

01:49:35   good at brewing hit record really care

01:49:37   like follow like the discard timers and

01:49:39   stuff like that but it's decent and and

01:49:43   I would

01:49:44   whenever I'm they're usually all go to

01:49:46   Pete's because around the corner and if

01:49:48   in a few blocks in the opposite

01:49:50   direction

01:49:51   there's blue bottle right which blue

01:49:53   bottle coffee is very good but there's

01:49:55   usually a 45-minute line out the door

01:49:57   whenever I have to get to a section in

01:49:59   the morning and it's gotten worse

01:50:00   worse yes it has it's like word has

01:50:03   spread

01:50:04   I think that there's more people who

01:50:05   work in that area like I don't know

01:50:07   maybe it's all the square people really

01:50:10   hasn't gone away and the line is longer

01:50:13   it is so used to be the you go to blue

01:50:15   bottle and at least I was always my luck

01:50:17   that you could go and you had to wait

01:50:19   but you have to wait like 10 minutes and

01:50:21   it seemed well worth it because even if

01:50:22   you want to do said screw it i'll just

01:50:25   walk to Pete's Pete's there and back was

01:50:27   20 minute walk

01:50:29   whereas now yeah you go there and it is

01:50:30   like like the line is out around the

01:50:33   corner

01:50:34   yeah like if I'm gonna like skip a whole

01:50:35   session the maybe and maybe like that

01:50:38   the after a long session if I decide all

01:50:40   we know I'm kind of tired i'll skip

01:50:41   after a long session then I'll take an

01:50:43   hour and go to blue pothole and then

01:50:45   come back and make it just barely make

01:50:47   it back in time but you normally I go to

01:50:50   Pete's because it's it's not it's not

01:50:52   amazing but it's good i saw at the mat

01:50:55   Honan n you know Matt he writes a wino

01:50:58   of him i have an email you I saw him

01:51:01   tweeting from CES where he was covering

01:51:03   from wired and he brought like a whole

01:51:06   copy opera apparatus with him to see us

01:51:08   to make it this room because he didn't

01:51:11   want to drink mass-market coffee haters

01:51:13   can't blame the guy

01:51:15   now I've never seen that before that I

01:51:17   mean I get you know a lot of hotel rooms

01:51:19   have those coffee makers in the bathroom

01:51:21   which is always really really kind of

01:51:23   feels dirty i feel super dirty to me IE

01:51:26   putting food making equipment in the

01:51:28   bathroom having I don't know yeah like I

01:51:30   I know like practically speaking ok it

01:51:34   has a faucet has a sink like that makes

01:51:36   sense but i still never feel right i

01:51:40   think that the way I don't think that

01:51:41   any hotel should put a coffee maker in

01:51:44   the hotel room I think if they if they

01:51:46   feel that their guests want coffee in

01:51:47   the morning they should have coffee in

01:51:49   the lobby and just give it to them

01:51:50   I feel like that the little coffee maker

01:51:52   in the hotel room is the grossest thing

01:51:54   and in in the modern hotels

01:51:58   although i will say the one the one

01:52:00   pimping that I can do here that's

01:52:02   relevant it's timely is the the hotel in

01:52:06   Wellington for web stock that that that

01:52:09   they put us up in a speakers and for

01:52:10   website two years ago

01:52:12   what's a better hotel it's not that it's

01:52:15   the hotel that has the hippopotamus a

01:52:17   hippopotamus is the bar i think it's

01:52:20   called the Museum Hotel something like

01:52:21   that

01:52:22   let's see they have in all the rooms

01:52:24   they have they have pre-ground packets

01:52:27   of coffee but it's from a local roaster

01:52:29   the tenets and they're pretty good and

01:52:30   they give you a bottom french press to

01:52:33   brew an analytic an electric kettle to

01:52:35   boil the water with so every morning and

01:52:39   they're in Wellington I would make

01:52:40   coffee and in this this catalyst french

01:52:43   press in my room and it was it was the

01:52:45   best hotel coffee I've ever had

01:52:46   alright but that's do it wasn't in the

01:52:48   bathroom though was it no it will not be

01:52:50   the sweet sounds like all kitchen which

01:52:51   one exactly right it's in a kid that's a

01:52:53   whole different ball game to me it's not

01:52:55   that people not a general opposition to

01:52:58   making a coffee in your hotel room it's

01:53:00   using a shitty little mr. coffee in the

01:53:03   bathroom he just don't its kind of

01:53:06   meaning i don't even like it when I see

01:53:07   somebody bring a drink into the bathroom

01:53:09   so we're gonna do with that you gonna

01:53:11   drink that I mean it i don't know it's

01:53:14   what we're seeing bring out of the

01:53:15   bathroom then you know like if they

01:53:17   bring it in they could pause believe it

01:53:19   there right now you're going to ditch it

01:53:21   but if it's like a glass or something

01:53:22   like yeah they finish it up

01:53:25   get rid of it and then go to the bad

01:53:26   don't break glass in the bathroom Jimmy

01:53:28   Christ I it is the i just looked it up

01:53:31   and now it's gone it's the museum right

01:53:35   museum art hotel okay in Wellington and

01:53:38   buy an ad is a perfect segue i saw on

01:53:42   twitter you were working on your old

01:53:45   fashions I was which its ties in to do

01:53:48   did you listen to the show Merlin was on

01:53:50   Merlin I actually talked about this

01:53:51   where we were at web stock two years ago

01:53:56   februari and and the bar this is the

01:53:58   hip-hop hippopotamus bar you were going

01:54:01   to say Hiphopopotamus a pop-up which is

01:54:02   what we all had taken to calling it the

01:54:06   hiphopopotamus farm that was having a

01:54:08   special old-fashioned month where they

01:54:10   had an entire section or maybe was the

01:54:12   entire menu and it was devoted to old

01:54:15   fashions and variants on the

01:54:17   old-fashioned cocktail and there was a

01:54:19   great bartender their name Houston i saw

01:54:22   and so you were working on your houston

01:54:24   style old-fashioned indeed I

01:54:26   I was trying to try to replicate it as

01:54:29   best I can so I i have so that what we

01:54:31   had from Houston with the old-fashioned

01:54:33   it was it was Buffalo Trace which is in

01:54:36   general buffalo trace is like is my

01:54:38   favorite like normal bourbon like not

01:54:42   ultra special not cheap like a normal

01:54:45   bourbon if you're gonna have a bourbon

01:54:46   especially we're gonna be making a lot

01:54:47   of mixed drinks with that I i highly

01:54:49   recommend Buffalo to not expensive

01:54:50   though either i think here in

01:54:51   Pennsylvania and not too bad you know

01:54:53   820 sheep $23 or so that's not bad at

01:54:56   all

01:54:56   22-23 dollars and that compares to let's

01:54:59   say like a bottle of Jim Beam for like

01:55:01   maybe fourteen fifteen dollars

01:55:02   yeah before this I was into knob creek

01:55:04   but and and woodford reserve those are

01:55:06   both very good but I think buffalo trace

01:55:07   is better than both of those in my

01:55:09   opinion at least I think it's better for

01:55:11   an old-fashioned I think he inserts that

01:55:12   has me convinced and I have made an or

01:55:14   an enormous number of old-fashioned is

01:55:15   over the last two years and and Buffalo

01:55:17   Trace you cannot go wrong with i believe

01:55:19   so what I found so the Houston recipe

01:55:22   was Buffalo Trace demerara sugar which

01:55:26   44 demerara sugar I guess is more

01:55:28   popular outside of America but I get

01:55:30   arrested US but in the u.s. it's very

01:55:33   similar to light brown sugar

01:55:35   it's just you know it's sugar with some

01:55:37   molasses still in it on and and so kind

01:55:40   of between light and dark brown but so

01:55:43   Buffalo Trace demerara sugar and some

01:55:47   kind of bitters I don't know what kind

01:55:48   of bitters he was using and for the

01:55:51   citrus element he used grapefruit

01:55:54   so you do a grapefruit rind he would

01:55:55   twist it burn the oil and a little puff

01:55:57   flame and no rubber on the glass and

01:55:59   drop it in so great for was a citrus

01:56:01   demerara sugar some kind of letters in

01:56:02   Buffalo Trace I think I've actually come

01:56:04   fairly close i haven't tried it with the

01:56:06   fresh grapefruit but i did find in my I

01:56:08   have a pretty nice kind of like booty

01:56:11   grocery store so i went there and they

01:56:16   sold me

01:56:17   Scrappy's bitters it's a bottle it and

01:56:20   it's the grapefruit flavor of bitters m

01:56:23   and so I use that with Buffalo Trace and

01:56:27   I made it I made a simple syrup of

01:56:28   demerara sugar and with just those three

01:56:32   ingredients in 21 21 21 simple syrup or

01:56:36   um I I don't know offhand I i wrote down

01:56:40   I was just I was kind of doing as i went

01:56:41   to i wrote down I used 50 grams of sugar

01:56:43   24 ounces of of a hot water and so it i

01:56:47   don't think it's one but it's it's

01:56:50   weaker than that but uh yeah i've been

01:56:52   using that just a little bit of that the

01:56:54   Bourbon a good amount of bitters like

01:56:57   you know three or four the little

01:56:58   splashes because it comes out kind of

01:57:00   slowly it's like one drop at a time and

01:57:02   it's pretty good I and we no no no fruit

01:57:06   no ice there's a great site if you're

01:57:08   into making your own old-fashioned here

01:57:10   I had it open here can we talk about

01:57:12   this its old-fashioned 10 1.com and and

01:57:18   it's it's like it's a one-page site very

01:57:21   very simple and it's like here's like

01:57:22   the five steps making on fashion here

01:57:24   for an old-fashioned is and isn't and

01:57:27   all it is is sugar some sweet something

01:57:33   video and a spirit and that's everything

01:57:36   else is optional or shouldn't be there

01:57:38   because i love your fashion that i don't

01:57:41   i'm not that big into most liquor drinks

01:57:43   i I really don't care for most of them

01:57:45   I'm usually more of a like a snobby

01:57:47   craft beer guy but i do like bourbon a

01:57:51   lot and so I developed a taste for the

01:57:53   old-fashioned when when that's when when

01:57:55   when either the beer selection somewhere

01:57:58   is terrible or when it just makes more

01:57:59   sense to have liquor for context reasons

01:58:03   and and so I've ordered old-fashioned a

01:58:06   few places and then maybe usually

01:58:10   terrible because right usually it's it's

01:58:12   like a fruit smoothie in there like that

01:58:14   you wonder what what these people were

01:58:17   thinking when they made it right and the

01:58:19   history of it is is convoluted and i

01:58:22   think i'm getting this is a great book

01:58:23   that i have i recommend it highly out

01:58:26   put a link in the show totes but it's

01:58:27   the book is called bitters and it's by a

01:58:30   guy named brad thomas parsons and the

01:58:32   whole book is essentially just about

01:58:33   bitters not even cocktails and general

01:58:35   just bitters but then you know it's got

01:58:38   drink recipes and and the old-fashioned

01:58:40   is is the original I'm always so

01:58:43   disappointed when i go to a bar that

01:58:45   looks like they might have a real

01:58:46   old-fashioned a good old-fashioned like

01:58:48   there's gotta be like a name for i think

01:58:50   that in this bitters book that that

01:58:52   the Brad Parsons has a name for that

01:58:53   old-fashioned i figure i can think of

01:58:55   offhand though but he has I could like a

01:58:57   disparaging name for it i'll give you my

01:59:00   old-fashioned recipe cherish my

01:59:02   old-fashioned recipe i'm a big fan of

01:59:05   fee brothers bitters f ee brothers after

01:59:10   I haven't seen him yet but I hope you

01:59:11   can get them on amazon i think they saw

01:59:13   it through a third party seller called

01:59:15   keg works and maybe it'd be better to

01:59:17   just go to kick works com I don't know

01:59:19   but if you go to amazon and search for

01:59:20   few brothers you'll find it they have a

01:59:22   sampler where you can get that I think

01:59:24   there's at least four varieties which is

01:59:26   a they're at their standard bitters

01:59:28   which are like at their take on

01:59:29   angostura bitters which i think i think

01:59:31   i like a little better than it then

01:59:33   Angostura but I would i I'm not quite

01:59:36   sure what would happen if i did a blind

01:59:37   taste test but they're at least as good

01:59:40   they have orange bitters grapefruit

01:59:42   bitters and lemon better so i think the

01:59:44   four pack is is regular Angostura orange

01:59:49   lemon grapefruit

01:59:50   I really like the orange bitters so my

01:59:53   old-fashioned recipe too small dashes of

01:59:57   orange bitters be brothers too small

01:59:59   dashes

01:59:59   dashes

02:00:00   of their regular bitters angostura

02:00:03   bitters 1mr demerara had a pencil yeah

02:00:08   demerara demerara sugar cube little bit

02:00:11   of water just a little bit just enough

02:00:12   to get the sugar cube dissolved but

02:00:15   here's the thing i always take it out of

02:00:16   a sodastream bottom a little bit of

02:00:18   fizzy water just a little just just just

02:00:20   enough in the mixing thing to get the

02:00:22   sugar to dissolve you're violating the

02:00:25   one of these rules on the site which is

02:00:27   what you never had water there is no

02:00:28   cell service or water ginger ale or

02:00:30   lemon soda an old-fashioned see I just

02:00:32   put a little bit now I cannot do there's

02:00:33   no bubbles in the drink you don't taste

02:00:35   any carbonation in the drink so that's

02:00:37   where i think what they're talking about

02:00:39   I don't know I I like it's not like

02:00:41   half-cell sir I think it just makes more

02:00:43   fun the middle of the sugar cube if you

02:00:45   see bubbles exploding see that's why I

02:00:47   the reason I make the syrup and advances

02:00:48   i have zero tolerance for having to try

02:00:51   to dissolve the sugar in cold water it's

02:00:53   it's such a pain and i never get it all

02:00:55   it's like same thing with iced coffee

02:00:57   you know i should die die if anything

02:00:59   that's on my list of things that tries

02:01:01   to start keeping some simple syrup in

02:01:03   that fridge

02:01:04   yes you can you carbonate simple syrup

02:01:06   well the SodaStream warns you not to

02:01:09   carbonate anything but plain water like

02:01:10   you know me at first they just when you

02:01:13   make soda with that they tell you to

02:01:14   make the water first and then throw shit

02:01:16   in later right because the presently

02:01:17   they don't want to get sugar and stuff

02:01:19   all up in the nozzle and have it all get

02:01:20   you know infected but uh I really can

02:01:24   you make the fizzy water and boil it or

02:01:26   that would take all the carbonation of

02:01:28   it it would probably take most of it out

02:01:30   if it didn't take all of it out I

02:01:31   whatever you you don't need you don't

02:01:34   need to dissolve it in hot water just

02:01:36   takes way longer in cold water

02:01:38   I'm so you could try it but then like

02:01:40   you know how long would it really stay

02:01:42   fizzy in the fridge

02:01:43   I don't think I'd with the amount of

02:01:44   water on putting into the old-fashioned

02:01:46   I i'm willing to bet that it doesn't

02:01:48   make a damn bit of difference so it's

02:01:49   probably just me being a new you know

02:01:52   thinking I'm being clever by using it

02:01:54   but anyway just enough water model that

02:01:57   up get that sugar cube is dissolved as

02:01:59   you can get it put a whole bunch of big

02:02:01   fist full of cracked ice in there two

02:02:03   ounces of bourbon stir that thing for as

02:02:06   long as you can bear to start just sit

02:02:07   there and start for I don't know 30 40

02:02:09   seconds

02:02:10   ah

02:02:11   and that's it then strain it put in a

02:02:13   glass with a big one big-ass Ice Cube

02:02:15   and then orange peel lemon peel whatever

02:02:18   you've gotten out some kind of citrus

02:02:19   peel put it on top now how do you manage

02:02:22   your you're naked fruits like what do

02:02:25   you like i always say I I haven't yet

02:02:27   gotten into the appeals part of it yet

02:02:30   because like I'm not gonna like take

02:02:32   part of lemon off and like what I do

02:02:33   with the rest of that lemon you put in

02:02:35   the fridge and then it is so eventually

02:02:37   you have like you have like a half or

02:02:39   fully naked lemon and the friends going

02:02:41   out that like it just kinda you do i do

02:02:43   yeah you know you end up throwing away

02:02:46   some lemons i'll leave the oranges

02:02:48   sometimes but I end up throwing some of

02:02:49   that way if I was coughing a quarter

02:02:51   each right now that I I effectively by

02:02:53   an awful lot of citrus feud fruit that i

02:02:55   only had only use for the rides if I

02:02:58   could just buy fresh lemon and orange

02:03:01   rinds i would i would do that but you

02:03:03   can get dry ones that kind of ruins the

02:03:06   point of this point

02:03:07   yeah but this is another one this is

02:03:09   another case where even a guy and I have

02:03:11   really i do not have any kind of cooking

02:03:13   aptitude I'm not I'm not I'm not good at

02:03:16   that

02:03:17   I don't have the patience for it but

02:03:18   i'll tell you what i think anybody any

02:03:20   even a true clots in the kitchen can

02:03:24   learn to make a world-class

02:03:25   old-fashioned like an old-fashioned that

02:03:27   does is good as anybody in the world can

02:03:30   afford her or will make and it doesn't

02:03:33   take anything more than you know

02:03:34   twenty-dollar bourbon sugar cubes and

02:03:37   and the lemon you can get at any

02:03:39   supermarket or orange

02:03:41   yeah i mean that's like I was so

02:03:42   surprised when when I attempted to

02:03:44   replicate these awesome old-fashioned

02:03:47   we've been thinking about for two years

02:03:48   and we had a new zealand i tend to

02:03:51   replicate three days ago and just like

02:03:54   my second try was perfect because it

02:03:57   because it turns out they were just

02:03:58   doing really good ingredients like they

02:04:01   weren't doing any crazy special things

02:04:03   like my like it was really easy to

02:04:04   replicate that always get very very

02:04:06   close to it because it is really that

02:04:09   simple

02:04:10   yeah and that's one thing to that

02:04:13   Houston down there at the hiphopopotamus

02:04:15   he was very very generous about his

02:04:17   technique like once we found on over the

02:04:19   drink and we started hectoring about it

02:04:21   was like six

02:04:22   maybe it was almost conducting a clinic

02:04:24   force each time he made one

02:04:26   yeah and then we were having a make like

02:04:27   8a time to fill it to satisfy our

02:04:29   increasingly growing crowd that always

02:04:31   just wanted those so it was we were

02:04:33   constantly watching him make more of

02:04:35   them so it was easy to pick up and i'm

02:04:38   looking at amazon do you can get the

02:04:40   feed brothers better i mean bitters is

02:04:41   not as you're not gonna go bust building

02:04:44   your little bitters collection at a

02:04:46   bottle of few brothers is like 10 bucks

02:04:48   and see my bottle of grape fruit was

02:04:51   like 20 so i was i was a little on the

02:04:52   fence about buying it but then I

02:04:53   realized you know you only use like a

02:04:54   drop at a time right a ya gotta say my

02:04:58   Scrappy's grapefruit is really good does

02:04:59   feed brothers offer a grapefruit they do

02:05:01   they said they have orange level

02:05:03   grapefruit and then the the aromatic

02:05:05   they call it aromatic dangerous students

02:05:07   to effectively Angostura I'll get us a

02:05:10   scary

02:05:10   they also cherry I've ever tried then in

02:05:12   memory years when I finally go through

02:05:14   this bottle of bitters maybe i'll have

02:05:16   this next they have rhubarb bitters see

02:05:18   I don't know what the hell that is

02:05:19   it's it's it's one of those filler

02:05:21   fruits they put in pies nobody likes

02:05:23   peach bitters they've peach Aztec

02:05:25   chocolate cocktail bitters with your

02:05:28   brother says a lot of better so I

02:05:29   haven't tried these fairly extensive

02:05:31   yeah I don't know feat brothers has a

02:05:34   website and we see before we sign off

02:05:35   and stick it

02:05:39   sorry at Brooklyn company doesn't say

02:05:43   they do if they just I just took a gas

02:05:46   anyway google it but it's a now they're

02:05:48   in rochester rochester new york okay I

02:05:50   got the state right at least you can go

02:05:52   to feed brothers dot-com and and see

02:05:55   more anyway they're great and it's it's

02:05:57   fantastic

02:05:58   according to wikipedia they offer

02:05:59   vacuum-sealed venison flavored me that's

02:06:03   it's it's funny that would do you know

02:06:04   it's also specific it's perfect that

02:06:06   we're doing this in at night time

02:06:08   because that typical talk shows

02:06:10   recording the daytime and it pairs well

02:06:12   with the talks thing to that because to

02:06:14   me start my day trying to make the best

02:06:16   coffee I possibly can and at night you

02:06:18   know make a perfect old-fashioned can't

02:06:21   go wrong did go wrong against so easy

02:06:24   we should get free brothers to sponsor

02:06:25   the show and Buffalo Trace and buffalo

02:06:27   trace those bastards

02:06:30   alright Marco thank you very much for

02:06:32   being it is a long show but i think is

02:06:33   very thanks that is worth it