The Incomparable

198: A Critical Mass of Lady Geeks


00:00:07   the incomparable number 198 jun 2014 [TS]

00:00:15   welcome back to being comfortable [TS]

00:00:17   podcast I'm your host Jason style and we [TS]

00:00:19   got a very interesting topic and panel a [TS]

00:00:23   little bit different I feel actually a [TS]

00:00:24   shame that it is a little bit different [TS]

00:00:26   because we should have had an episode [TS]

00:00:28   with a panel composed this way before [TS]

00:00:32   and it just hasn't happened but it's [TS]

00:00:33   happening this time we have a special [TS]

00:00:35   guest and we have some regular attendees [TS]

00:00:38   and I think we're gonna have a good time [TS]

00:00:40   let me introduce my panel Lisa [TS]

00:00:41   Schmeisser is here [TS]

00:00:42   hello hi it's nice to be back good to [TS]

00:00:45   have you back so soon [TS]

00:00:46   no less yeah it's crazy so I who else [TS]

00:00:51   Eric and sign also here [TS]

00:00:53   sign in please report your name rank and [TS]

00:00:54   serial number I don't you can't see me [TS]

00:00:57   but I'm saluting our good good is that a [TS]

00:00:59   Canadian salute you're doing Mary we [TS]

00:01:01   don't accept those here left Kevin ah [TS]

00:01:03   loop [TS]

00:01:04   alright and a special guest the head of [TS]

00:01:08   development at my favorite name in the [TS]

00:01:11   in a company i think that i can happen [TS]

00:01:13   anytime soon I was chanting it chanting [TS]

00:01:15   it earlier today because i enjoy saying [TS]

00:01:17   giant space cat it is Brianna Wu hello [TS]

00:01:20   hey what's crackalackin we're good we'll [TS]

00:01:24   find out won't we [TS]

00:01:25   that's what that's what we're here to [TS]

00:01:27   find out is what's crackalackin I i'm [TS]

00:01:29   going to be here I'm going to answer [TS]

00:01:30   that question okay oh good forward [TS]

00:01:32   product that's always good tease where [TS]

00:01:33   we're going and then people are going to [TS]

00:01:36   have to stay tuned to find out it's like [TS]

00:01:37   a little it's like a storytelling [TS]

00:01:39   technique that gamers would know that [TS]

00:01:42   right that's that's a key part of your [TS]

00:01:43   job too forward but i don't know what [TS]

00:01:46   i'm talking about so I i have i have got [TS]

00:01:48   you i'm also shaken because serenity [TS]

00:01:50   color was going to be here and then she [TS]

00:01:51   had to go away so it's very sad [TS]

00:01:53   we will carry on bravely without her [TS]

00:01:55   somehow yes somehow could make this [TS]

00:01:57   podcast happen she could not make it and [TS]

00:01:59   that's fine she had a friend in need and [TS]

00:02:01   that is more important than sleep at all [TS]

00:02:02   so I so yes so you see you [TS]

00:02:06   some people may have noticed too that I [TS]

00:02:08   i I'm being joined by three women [TS]

00:02:10   panelists and I i wanna have a little in [TS]

00:02:14   the spirit of John syracuse I have a [TS]

00:02:15   little opening statement [TS]

00:02:17   I know I know well John is an [TS]

00:02:19   inspiration to us all [TS]

00:02:21   first off i wanted to point out that one [TS]

00:02:24   of the things that I always tried to do [TS]

00:02:26   is the host is get the panel the panel [TS]

00:02:30   started was just people I knew and I [TS]

00:02:32   realize at some point that I knew a lot [TS]

00:02:36   of dudes which made the panel more male [TS]

00:02:39   than female although i was always happy [TS]

00:02:40   that I I knew two women who wanted to be [TS]

00:02:43   on the podcast from the get-go and talk [TS]

00:02:46   about nerdy stuff and that was Lisa and [TS]

00:02:47   serenity and i was very happy to have [TS]

00:02:49   those and then over time I've tried to [TS]

00:02:51   be more cognizant of encouraging them to [TS]

00:02:55   be on episodes i actually went out and [TS]

00:02:57   stock to Erica on the Internet [TS]

00:03:00   I've never been I've never been happier [TS]

00:03:02   people actually luckily I've never tell [TS]

00:03:04   actually penstocks a conventional you [TS]

00:03:06   know you listen to podcast you say is [TS]

00:03:07   that somebody who would fit in with our [TS]

00:03:09   particular level with madness or not and [TS]

00:03:11   and and I i hope you don't take offense [TS]

00:03:14   I I said yes when I heard what I heard [TS]

00:03:16   you was like I think she's like us but i [TS]

00:03:18   find that the highest of compliments and [TS]

00:03:20   I think you are right I appreciate that [TS]

00:03:23   so my story is this which is and i was [TS]

00:03:26   telling this to serenity last week and [TS]

00:03:27   she's not a podcast nobody's heard this [TS]

00:03:29   story before I want for anybody well I [TS]

00:03:31   will bore you but it we want to hurt [TS]

00:03:32   before so this is my story which is [TS]

00:03:34   growing up as a as a a elementary school [TS]

00:03:39   student I was always drawn toward [TS]

00:03:41   science fiction and fantasy and from [TS]

00:03:43   when I was watching Star Trek as a kid [TS]

00:03:45   and I always have this perception that [TS]

00:03:48   one a lot of times I was the only person [TS]

00:03:51   who was into this stuff and to that i [TS]

00:03:54   was the only that that only boys were [TS]

00:03:56   into this stuff and the girls weren't [TS]

00:03:58   into it and in that that perception [TS]

00:04:01   persisted in through high school and and [TS]

00:04:03   in college after i had got rid of many [TS]

00:04:06   of my nerdy things in order to seem less [TS]

00:04:09   nerdy which totally failed by the way to [TS]

00:04:12   women in college i discovered of course [TS]

00:04:14   in college at the heyday of Star Trek [TS]

00:04:15   The Next Generation that I was [TS]

00:04:17   completely wrong and that women love [TS]

00:04:19   this stuff too and that I just seem to [TS]

00:04:22   either not know them or totally miss it [TS]

00:04:25   and i wanted to start there which is you [TS]

00:04:29   know what I was wrong was this was this [TS]

00:04:32   something that was mostly male [TS]

00:04:33   and it's just changed over the last 20 [TS]

00:04:36   years or was always there and for some [TS]

00:04:39   reason either i couldn't see it or that [TS]

00:04:41   girls who like this stuff don't want to [TS]

00:04:43   talk about it or admit to it because I i [TS]

00:04:46   had a real you know hundred and eighty [TS]

00:04:47   degree turn in college when I realized [TS]

00:04:50   that my assumption about who liked this [TS]

00:04:52   stuff was totally and utterly wrong [TS]

00:04:56   that's been in my opening statement what [TS]

00:04:59   you think huh [TS]

00:05:00   I think I certainly don't want to speak [TS]

00:05:03   for the world or even the States but no [TS]

00:05:06   I'm looking I'm looking for your [TS]

00:05:07   personal stories more than anything else [TS]

00:05:09   for your own journey like okay my [TS]

00:05:11   personal story is that that it your [TS]

00:05:13   mother right [TS]

00:05:15   I grew up with as as we know so I was [TS]

00:05:18   definitely into this stuff from a young [TS]

00:05:20   age but I have to be honest I didn't [TS]

00:05:22   know very many other girls who were I [TS]

00:05:25   can think of a few who I bonded with it [TS]

00:05:27   became good friends with but for the [TS]

00:05:29   most part that there weren't that many [TS]

00:05:31   of us it really was just us a couple [TS]

00:05:33   girls and a bunch of guys and I think it [TS]

00:05:39   sucks being a girl and I'm ensure that [TS]

00:05:41   sucks being a guy in junior high school [TS]

00:05:42   as well but you know growing up [TS]

00:05:44   there's there's a lot of judgment and I [TS]

00:05:46   think that when you're talking when it [TS]

00:05:48   came to geeky stuff at that time the [TS]

00:05:51   judgment was a lot more harsh on the [TS]

00:05:52   girls that it was on the guys for for [TS]

00:05:55   being a little bit geeky and you know we [TS]

00:05:58   were getting judged for everything in [TS]

00:06:00   the first place so i think a lot of [TS]

00:06:02   girls just who would have really enjoyed [TS]

00:06:04   the same stuff that i was reading it [TS]

00:06:07   didn't even try it because they were [TS]

00:06:09   just too afraid so I think maybe as geek [TS]

00:06:12   culture sort of started hitting the [TS]

00:06:14   mainstream little bit more by a little [TS]

00:06:16   bit more those same girls who would have [TS]

00:06:18   been enjoying it all along [TS]

00:06:20   finally kind of got the guts to try it [TS]

00:06:22   out and were like oh my god this stuff [TS]

00:06:23   is awesome [TS]

00:06:24   I wasted so many years so when my my [TS]

00:06:27   personal experience from from the little [TS]

00:06:29   town that I grew up in is that you were [TS]

00:06:32   right but but you but it's sad that you [TS]

00:06:36   were right i guess this is how it works [TS]

00:06:38   out [TS]

00:06:38   I didn't meet a critical mass of Lady [TS]

00:06:40   geeks until college because my and to be [TS]

00:06:45   honest up until about high school it [TS]

00:06:46   never occurred to the [TS]

00:06:47   wasn't normal because when I was in [TS]

00:06:49   elementary school the first three [TS]

00:06:52   science fiction / fantasy media products [TS]

00:06:58   that i can seemed were Star Wars Star [TS]

00:07:01   Trek and Star Blazers and in every [TS]

00:07:03   single one of those who had one possibly [TS]

00:07:06   two women and five to seven men and so I [TS]

00:07:09   just assumed naively because I'm six or [TS]

00:07:12   seven years old I had assumed that the [TS]

00:07:13   ratio reflected like real life interest [TS]

00:07:15   like obviously there would be more girls [TS]

00:07:17   in science fiction and fantasy more [TS]

00:07:18   girls liked in real life because this is [TS]

00:07:20   the logic you have an elementary school [TS]

00:07:22   paper and like Eric I didn't have a lot [TS]

00:07:26   of girl friends growing up who were into [TS]

00:07:28   this stuff i mean even when I had [TS]

00:07:29   friends who are girls I was known as [TS]

00:07:30   though that's Lisa she reads the weird [TS]

00:07:32   stuff and it wasn't until high school [TS]

00:07:35   when I I i fell into a i guess one of [TS]

00:07:40   the collections libraries epidemic [TS]

00:07:42   library must have been about a crypto [TS]

00:07:44   sci-fi feminist or something because the [TS]

00:07:46   book shelves are stocked with marion [TS]

00:07:47   zimmer bradley Joanna rest [TS]

00:07:49   sherry temper and Suzette elgin hating [TS]

00:07:52   all of whom have have have done a lot of [TS]

00:07:55   you know incisive work it from a very [TS]

00:07:58   you know female center point of view and [TS]

00:08:00   that way MIT I shouldn't that this the [TS]

00:08:02   idea that there's a ratio and that my [TS]

00:08:04   interest is an outline interest that's a [TS]

00:08:06   weird assumption to have and that's a [TS]

00:08:07   wrong assumption to have them like i [TS]

00:08:09   said in college I realized there was [TS]

00:08:10   such a thing as a critical critical [TS]

00:08:12   massive lady geeks but you know even [TS]

00:08:15   when I walk into comic book stores today [TS]

00:08:17   I'm never in the majority I've never had [TS]

00:08:19   the experience of walking to a comic [TS]

00:08:20   book store noticing more men than women [TS]

00:08:22   and most the time when I going on a [TS]

00:08:25   Tuesday afternoon or wednesday for a [TS]

00:08:27   polis tits it's me and two other guys so [TS]

00:08:30   i think possibly in terms of what people [TS]

00:08:33   read what they watch on TV what they [TS]

00:08:35   what they see in the movies there's [TS]

00:08:39   probably more evening of the ratios [TS]

00:08:41   because I i know a lot of women now [TS]

00:08:43   we're really like the x-men or Star Trek [TS]

00:08:45   or Star Wars but i still think there are [TS]

00:08:48   pockets under the umbrella of geek [TS]

00:08:51   culture whether there's a profound in [TS]

00:08:52   balance and i'm not sure if that's a [TS]

00:08:55   temperamental thing or if there's a lot [TS]

00:08:57   of cultural baggage that I don't [TS]

00:08:58   perceive just because I'm so you [TS]

00:09:00   22 the ratio not working on my favorite [TS]

00:09:03   for so long [TS]

00:09:04   no it's I i completely agree with what [TS]

00:09:07   you just said and yeah i'm also [TS]

00:09:08   uncomfortable speaking for you know half [TS]

00:09:12   the human race but i can say like I had [TS]

00:09:14   a very similar your background is all of [TS]

00:09:17   you i work at my company is one of the [TS]

00:09:20   few all-female game dev teams in the [TS]

00:09:22   entire industry every woman on my team [TS]

00:09:25   has also had a story exactly like this [TS]

00:09:27   my co-founder is actually a cheerleader [TS]

00:09:29   in high school and felt like she had to [TS]

00:09:33   kind of hide this stuff and other ppl [TS]

00:09:35   cant kind of didn't relate to her um you [TS]

00:09:38   know I think it's I think it's [TS]

00:09:40   definitely become more accepted but i [TS]

00:09:42   also think that there are all kinds of [TS]

00:09:45   things around geek culture that are real [TS]

00:09:49   no girls allowed signs that are really [TS]

00:09:53   they're really invisible two guys they [TS]

00:09:56   don't understand it and it sometimes in [TS]

00:09:59   you know big ways like you know like a [TS]

00:10:03   comic con might have you know a girl [TS]

00:10:06   with her chest hanging out you know what [TS]

00:10:08   the advertisements it's in ways that [TS]

00:10:11   science-fiction tends to really [TS]

00:10:13   typically you know sexualize the lead [TS]

00:10:15   female characters Star Trek has been [TS]

00:10:18   tremendously guilty and not and yeah [TS]

00:10:20   it's you know so it's this it's all [TS]

00:10:24   these things about the culture that you [TS]

00:10:26   know it's it's a thousand little things [TS]

00:10:29   but at the end of the day it it is men [TS]

00:10:32   kind of standing there and saying like [TS]

00:10:33   this is our space this is our culture [TS]

00:10:35   and it does kind of push you away i [TS]

00:10:39   think the women that kind of push back [TS]

00:10:41   and stay in the field and stand up for [TS]

00:10:44   their interests i think that we kind of [TS]

00:10:46   developed thick-skinned necessarily [TS]

00:10:48   would you guys agree with them you know [TS]

00:10:51   i don't know if you guys have had this [TS]

00:10:52   experience but it was a real shock to me [TS]

00:10:55   the first time I busted out with comic [TS]

00:10:57   book cannon and had a couple guys I was [TS]

00:11:00   talking to actually act really angry [TS]

00:11:02   that he you know as opposed to having a [TS]

00:11:05   collaborative conversation and I was [TS]

00:11:07   really [TS]

00:11:08   I was a teenager and I remember being [TS]

00:11:10   really taken aback because all through [TS]

00:11:13   elementary school middle school even [TS]

00:11:14   high school like the sensible boys were [TS]

00:11:17   never this great mystery and you know or [TS]

00:11:19   or this entire species because I could [TS]

00:11:21   speak the language that a lot of these [TS]

00:11:22   guys spoke you know we always pass code [TS]

00:11:24   books back and forth we put Dungeons and [TS]

00:11:26   Dragons together we watched the same [TS]

00:11:27   shows but you know you meet a couple of [TS]

00:11:31   guys and we get to talk about comic [TS]

00:11:33   books and they were really angry that [TS]

00:11:36   instead of them teaching me about comic [TS]

00:11:39   books or whatever I had my own opinions [TS]

00:11:41   and my own back and forth and it took me [TS]

00:11:43   a long time to realize that force for [TS]

00:11:47   for some aspects of geek culture there's [TS]

00:11:50   there's a real alpha male hierarchy take [TS]

00:11:52   thing going on where you know I know the [TS]

00:11:54   most about XYZ therefore I'm the alpha [TS]

00:11:56   in this situation and I had been used to [TS]

00:11:59   running into that like in classrooms [TS]

00:12:01   with with typical high school [TS]

00:12:03   discussions i was a shock to me to [TS]

00:12:06   discover in indy cultures like I didn't [TS]

00:12:09   realize there was that performative [TS]

00:12:10   aspect to it where it i think one of the [TS]

00:12:15   reasons that blew me away was one of the [TS]

00:12:17   things that's consistently drawn me to [TS]

00:12:18   sci-fi and fantasy over the years has [TS]

00:12:20   been in don't it's all thought [TS]

00:12:23   experiments different societies what if [TS]

00:12:25   what if these definitions minority [TS]

00:12:27   majority of flipped or what if this the [TS]

00:12:29   social premise levels of salt equal [TS]

00:12:31   economically and I had assumed that this [TS]

00:12:34   this questioning of current societal [TS]

00:12:36   mores and this reexamination of of [TS]

00:12:38   social interactions was something that [TS]

00:12:40   everyone shares in fandom I hadn't [TS]

00:12:41   realized that people brought in these [TS]

00:12:44   these external expectations about gender [TS]

00:12:46   roles or what women could or should [TS]

00:12:49   shouldn't do you know in terms of [TS]

00:12:51   somebody's interest it was a huge shock [TS]

00:12:53   to me so when I go in the want to go to [TS]

00:12:55   target i'm going to just saying it might [TS]

00:12:57   go to target because my son usually [TS]

00:12:59   demands that we go to target because [TS]

00:13:01   gift certificate or something [TS]

00:13:02   go to the toy aisle and it is a horror [TS]

00:13:05   show because it is there is a boy toy [TS]

00:13:08   aisle and there is a girl toy island and [TS]

00:13:11   listen to you guys talk to one of the [TS]

00:13:13   things that this reminds me of is a [TS]

00:13:17   science fiction and fantasy and other [TS]

00:13:20   geeky stuff like that people [TS]

00:13:22   people filed it in the boy I'll which is [TS]

00:13:25   towards so wrong on so many levels but [TS]

00:13:27   if you're a boy you just senile full of [TS]

00:13:30   toys and you don't think about it which [TS]

00:13:31   is I think what my experience was in [TS]

00:13:33   that would you know which again is so I [TS]

00:13:35   I like i said i had this revelation much [TS]

00:13:38   later that that I had you know you don't [TS]

00:13:40   know where that barrier is there until [TS]

00:13:43   you step outside yourself a little bit [TS]

00:13:44   and you find that you've made this this [TS]

00:13:46   this totally crazy assumption about it i [TS]

00:13:48   mean i can only speak for myself but [TS]

00:13:50   even today when you know sometimes my [TS]

00:13:53   husband and I will go check out the toys [TS]

00:13:55   at toys r us and you i'm an engineer I i [TS]

00:13:59   do game development and for me the toys [TS]

00:14:03   that are interesting or like if you go [TS]

00:14:06   to the girls toy aisle [TS]

00:14:07   it's barbie and it's brats and it's you [TS]

00:14:11   know it's it's a bunch of messages that [TS]

00:14:13   say be a doll be pretty you know dress [TS]

00:14:16   up as this and don't even get me started [TS]

00:14:18   on the LEGO Friends line haha oh there's [TS]

00:14:23   a reason we're using my place the [TS]

00:14:24   nineteen seventies of my daughter they [TS]

00:14:26   were actually much less gender determine [TS]

00:14:28   the toy sale [TS]

00:14:29   well it's because its marketing right [TS]

00:14:30   they decided to that there's some [TS]

00:14:32   something effective about it because [TS]

00:14:34   parents respond to it i don't mind my [TS]

00:14:36   daughter we dressed in yellow and green [TS]

00:14:38   and all that and then she saw the [TS]

00:14:40   princess episode of dora the explorer [TS]

00:14:42   which I will curse to this day and also [TS]

00:14:44   it was like going on things we know [TS]

00:14:46   because one it's fine but you know that [TS]

00:14:49   that that marketing aspect like i said i [TS]

00:14:50   just did the girl toys boys bins really [TS]

00:14:54   bugs me [TS]

00:14:55   the boys if you go over to that aisle [TS]

00:14:58   it's all men having adventures you can [TS]

00:15:01   be Batman you can go save the world you [TS]

00:15:03   can be GI Joe you can you can go do [TS]

00:15:06   things and to me this is such an [TS]

00:15:09   unbelievably dangerous message for 4 [TS]

00:15:13   girls to get like girls the messages be [TS]

00:15:16   pretty dress up [TS]

00:15:18   um you boys the messages go have an [TS]

00:15:20   adventure do things have hope this smash [TS]

00:15:23   things and I don't know it's it's like [TS]

00:15:26   when I look at a Barbie doll i find it [TS]

00:15:29   very aesthetically pleasing and it's not [TS]

00:15:31   that I don't enjoy the girly aspect of [TS]

00:15:34   them but it is [TS]

00:15:35   really bothers me that you have to this [TS]

00:15:38   day when they bring out video game toys [TS]

00:15:41   um gears of war they never include the [TS]

00:15:44   female characters [TS]

00:15:45   yes superhero movies they will not make [TS]

00:15:48   female characters generally or it's like [TS]

00:15:50   a Smurfette you know one out of all of [TS]

00:15:52   them and it's not just the gendered [TS]

00:15:55   aspect it's this message that women are [TS]

00:15:58   inculcated into before we can even think [TS]

00:16:01   straight [TS]

00:16:02   the kind of keeps us out of key culture [TS]

00:16:04   yeah at the gonna steal us her story [TS]

00:16:07   from my very co-host Deb who is that a [TS]

00:16:11   McDonald's with a bunch of young [TS]

00:16:13   children it was girls it was an internal [TS]

00:16:16   some sort of sporting event coding and [TS]

00:16:19   some of them got the happy meal with the [TS]

00:16:21   book quote unquote boy and some of them [TS]

00:16:23   got the Happy Meal the quote-unquote [TS]

00:16:24   girl toy they think they were all like [TS]

00:16:26   spider-man or something whatever it was [TS]

00:16:28   the quote unquote [TS]

00:16:29   oh I have stories about this because [TS]

00:16:30   happiness mission just ended and I have [TS]

00:16:32   a daughter so i'll jump after you do [TS]

00:16:34   yes the boy with something active i [TS]

00:16:37   don't remember exactly what it was and [TS]

00:16:38   the girl was a notebook so like you [TS]

00:16:41   girls should sit and think and write and [TS]

00:16:44   boys to do stuff so they've had four [TS]

00:16:46   weeks and spot so they had 46 spider-man [TS]

00:16:48   promotion or they had four weeks of [TS]

00:16:49   spider-man promotion and I take my [TS]

00:16:51   daughter to mcdonalds once a week [TS]

00:16:52   because i'm a terrible parent and done [TS]

00:16:54   we call and we have happy meals and we [TS]

00:16:57   sit and we talk whatever and one of the [TS]

00:16:59   spider man i would look at the toy every [TS]

00:17:01   week and one week she did ask for the [TS]

00:17:03   girl toy which it was a little comb / me [TS]

00:17:06   where you press a button and the [TS]

00:17:07   conflicts out and she kept saying it was [TS]

00:17:09   her knife which I think that's fine um [TS]

00:17:12   the next week it was like you said was a [TS]

00:17:14   notebook vs this really nifty wind up [TS]

00:17:17   spider and they had her the notebook and [TS]

00:17:19   I marched back up to the front of [TS]

00:17:21   mcdonalds and said no I asked the boys [TS]

00:17:22   to give me the spider and so give my [TS]

00:17:24   daughter the spider and she loves and [TS]

00:17:26   it's in megan is the name of the spider [TS]

00:17:28   because it everywhere with us now but it [TS]

00:17:31   was amazing because you have their toys [TS]

00:17:32   if you were a boy when we've got trading [TS]

00:17:35   cards if you are a girl you got you got [TS]

00:17:37   like heart stickers or something like [TS]

00:17:39   that another week of stationary and I [TS]

00:17:41   thought to myself this is an action [TS]

00:17:43   movie about a web slinger and you're [TS]

00:17:46   basically telling children little girls [TS]

00:17:48   that their job is to [TS]

00:17:49   groom themselves and and and and keep up [TS]

00:17:53   spider-man's correspondence while the [TS]

00:17:54   boys kept copies and you know what the [TS]

00:17:57   what the what and you know again my [TS]

00:18:00   daughter's young enough now where i can [TS]

00:18:02   pick the toy and she's happy with it and [TS]

00:18:04   she still an age where she is very much [TS]

00:18:06   action oriented likely to give any given [TS]

00:18:08   week she spider-man today she was Hulk [TS]

00:18:11   smash she doesn't think the whole pieces [TS]

00:18:12   hold Smash's helps match today she was [TS]

00:18:14   Superman the other day that's all [TS]

00:18:16   smashes his last name we do you usually [TS]

00:18:18   means for very familiar home [TS]

00:18:21   she's right mr. Smathers just yesterday [TS]

00:18:23   I wonder how you know I wonder how much [TS]

00:18:25   longer that's gonna last [TS]

00:18:27   just because at some point the social [TS]

00:18:28   pressure does kick in i want to ask [TS]

00:18:30   about I want to ask about how this world [TS]

00:18:32   is changing because just in my [TS]

00:18:33   experience not just not being kind of [TS]

00:18:35   oblivious are although I do think this [TS]

00:18:38   was obviously a male-dominated field for [TS]

00:18:40   a while but but I feel like it's [TS]

00:18:42   changing when I go to comic-con when I [TS]

00:18:46   went to Gallifrey one right met Erica [TS]

00:18:48   and person you know the the the women [TS]

00:18:51   are everywhere it does not feel like a [TS]

00:18:55   boys club and I honestly the Doctor Who [TS]

00:18:57   convention i went to when I was in high [TS]

00:18:59   school I felt like a boys club and [TS]

00:19:01   comic-con just in the five years i've [TS]

00:19:03   been going to comic-con in san diego I [TS]

00:19:05   feel like I'm seeing more women of all [TS]

00:19:07   ages in its in attendance at end and the [TS]

00:19:10   only other piece of anecdote that I [TS]

00:19:12   wanted to pile on here is you know when [TS]

00:19:14   when I got into buffy the vampire slayer [TS]

00:19:16   the people who I told about it who got [TS]

00:19:19   into it with me were almost entirely my [TS]

00:19:22   women friends and the same went for the [TS]

00:19:24   Doctor Who reboot you know at an end and [TS]

00:19:26   so I feel like again this is one person [TS]

00:19:29   goes i'm not speaking for any percentage [TS]

00:19:31   of the population when I say this but it [TS]

00:19:33   feels to me like there has been a change [TS]

00:19:35   and whether that's III don't know the [TS]

00:19:40   cause or whether it's just visibility [TS]

00:19:42   that's changed but it feels to me like [TS]

00:19:44   you know some of the issues and fights [TS]

00:19:48   and arguments that happened on the [TS]

00:19:50   internet now are all because things have [TS]

00:19:53   changed and the old assumptions can be [TS]

00:19:56   made anymore which is a good thing it's [TS]

00:19:58   certain but it probably feels different [TS]

00:20:01   to me x take a brief [TS]

00:20:03   break and tell you about our sponsor for [TS]

00:20:05   this episode it is the fine people over [TS]

00:20:08   at Squarespace you may know Squarespace [TS]

00:20:11   Squarespace is the all-in-one platform [TS]

00:20:13   that makes it fast and easy to create [TS]

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00:20:21   ten percent off you can go to [TS]

00:20:22   squarespace.com and use the offer code [TS]

00:20:25   smell sent me that's me [TS]

00:20:27   my last names now sent me you know [TS]

00:20:30   building a website used to be hard you [TS]

00:20:31   just have to know lots of HTML and [TS]

00:20:33   JavaScript and CSS and all those things [TS]

00:20:36   and you know and back in my day we used [TS]

00:20:38   to build websites with her uphill both [TS]

00:20:42   ways in the snow it was hard is what I'm [TS]

00:20:45   saying in the early days and then some [TS]

00:20:48   tools came along and made it a little [TS]

00:20:49   bit easier but it's never been easier to [TS]

00:20:51   build a website and have it be beautiful [TS]

00:20:53   on top of that as it is now thanks to [TS]

00:20:56   squarespace Squarespace is constantly [TS]

00:20:58   updating their platform with new [TS]

00:20:59   features new designs more support they [TS]

00:21:01   have these beautiful templates to start [TS]

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00:21:05   not stuck with whatever they give you [TS]

00:21:07   and it has to look exactly like their [TS]

00:21:09   designer setup that they're designers [TS]

00:21:11   won awards for these templates but the [TS]

00:21:13   great thing about them is there are tons [TS]

00:21:14   of style options so you can personalize [TS]

00:21:16   them and make it your very own space [TS]

00:21:18   online it's easy to use everything is [TS]

00:21:21   drag-and-drop you can add content from [TS]

00:21:23   your desktop rearrange elements within a [TS]

00:21:25   page it's automatically going to look [TS]

00:21:27   great on your desktop but it's also look [TS]

00:21:29   great on mobile because every [TS]

00:21:30   Squarespace website has its own unique [TS]

00:21:31   mobile design as well you can connect in [TS]

00:21:34   Twitter and Facebook and lots of other [TS]

00:21:36   social services and web services and I [TS]

00:21:39   mentioned earlier online stores [TS]

00:21:41   Squarespace has e-commerce built into [TS]

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00:21:44   set up and start selling things on the [TS]

00:21:46   internet you can do it using Squarespace [TS]

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00:21:51   use but if you do need some help [TS]

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00:21:57   employees on the customer care team [TS]

00:22:00   they're located in New York City and [TS]

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00:22:05   email support so here's what you do [TS]

00:22:08   try squarespace for free you don't have [TS]

00:22:10   to give them a credit card or anything [TS]

00:22:11   and if you decide to buy plans started [TS]

00:22:14   just eight dollars a month and if you [TS]

00:22:16   sell it for [TS]

00:22:16   whole year at that rate you'll get a [TS]

00:22:18   domain name free on top of it [TS]

00:22:20   make sure to get ten percent off and [TS]

00:22:22   support the incomparable by using the [TS]

00:22:24   offer code Snell sent me so thank you to [TS]

00:22:27   squarespace for supporting me [TS]

00:22:29   uncomfortable run out [TS]

00:22:31   Snell sent me as the offer code to get [TS]

00:22:32   ten percent off Squarespace a better web [TS]

00:22:34   starts with your website [TS]

00:22:36   well the first generation of little [TS]

00:22:37   girls who dressed up as Princess Leia [TS]

00:22:39   for Halloween around for now [TS]

00:22:41   grandparents and I think I don't think [TS]

00:22:43   you can underestimate the impact that [TS]

00:22:45   michelle nichols and Carrie Fisher had [TS]

00:22:48   on little girl on people who were little [TS]

00:22:50   girls between the ages of like between [TS]

00:22:52   the year select 1968 1988 and I think I [TS]

00:22:56   know it's really tried but I think we [TS]

00:22:57   can't underestimate the impact of the [TS]

00:23:00   internet it because I like i said you [TS]

00:23:04   put a lot of the the young girls were [TS]

00:23:06   trying these things that they were [TS]

00:23:07   afraid of being judged and being told [TS]

00:23:09   that they were you know not pretty [TS]

00:23:11   enough or they're stupid or weird or a [TS]

00:23:13   key because they're doing this this [TS]

00:23:14   strange geeky boy stuff and now that the [TS]

00:23:17   internet is out there and people are [TS]

00:23:19   able to to see what folks are doing all [TS]

00:23:22   over the not just the country but all [TS]

00:23:23   over the world [TS]

00:23:24   it's there are a lot more girls of all [TS]

00:23:27   ages seeing that there are women [TS]

00:23:30   elsewhere who are doing this stuff and [TS]

00:23:32   therefore it makes it okay to try it and [TS]

00:23:34   of course not every little girl that [TS]

00:23:36   tries reading Isaac asthma or whatever [TS]

00:23:38   it is gonna like it the way I did but [TS]

00:23:40   made many of them white so that there's [TS]

00:23:44   a much bigger chance now for for [TS]

00:23:46   connecting through there are more people [TS]

00:23:47   sort of sampling and I think there are [TS]

00:23:49   also more guys sampling from the [TS]

00:23:50   quote-unquote girl stuff like you said [TS]

00:23:52   be with buffy the vampire slayer which [TS]

00:23:54   you know a lot of people like Buffy [TS]

00:23:56   remember so sweet girl stuff damn that [TS]

00:23:58   is how I heard it yeah i also want to be [TS]

00:23:59   culturally I feel like we have I talk [TS]

00:24:01   about boys and girls toys but in reality [TS]

00:24:03   is I think it's more generally there are [TS]

00:24:05   toys and then there are girl toys and [TS]

00:24:08   then there are some toys that are really [TS]

00:24:09   coated for male but there are also a lot [TS]

00:24:11   that are just the assumption is these [TS]

00:24:13   are toys and I think then it the [TS]

00:24:16   assumption is there mail and then there [TS]

00:24:17   are the special toys the girl that will [TS]

00:24:19   be four girls that girls will like and [TS]

00:24:21   bear in mind that that I spent a long [TS]

00:24:24   period of time on the lunacy of a [TS]

00:24:25   pregnancy and birth boards i'd have to [TS]

00:24:27   say that that what I think it's kind of [TS]

00:24:28   weird now is is mother [TS]

00:24:30   my observation on the internet which may [TS]

00:24:33   have little bearing on real life huh is [TS]

00:24:36   that there is a strong it is is that [TS]

00:24:39   people are okay with girls pushing [TS]

00:24:41   outside of gender norms but mothers of [TS]

00:24:42   little boys are really really [TS]

00:24:45   gender Norman them early and hard like [TS]

00:24:48   from babyhood where they'll pick up a [TS]

00:24:51   baby girl when she cries but they don't [TS]

00:24:52   want to spoil a 12 week old baby boy [TS]

00:24:54   which is just no I brought up the boys [TS]

00:24:56   toys and girl toys only to say I feel [TS]

00:24:59   like maybe some of this some of the the [TS]

00:25:03   geekier media stuff was in the Boy bin [TS]

00:25:07   and boys wouldn't notice and has been [TS]

00:25:10   moved out in maybe into a more kind of [TS]

00:25:14   like non gender appropriate thing like I [TS]

00:25:17   don't feel like like I think there are [TS]

00:25:19   very few i don't know maybe I'm wrong I [TS]

00:25:21   i think there are very few pieces of [TS]

00:25:23   media that i would say of this kind of [TS]

00:25:25   media that i would say oh well that's [TS]

00:25:27   just for women although I see that [TS]

00:25:29   another genre is too so maybe it's clear [TS]

00:25:31   here too i just feel like that's that [TS]

00:25:32   this is what people reacting to is that [TS]

00:25:34   it's not just for boys only anymore and [TS]

00:25:37   that freaks them out and yes I do i do [TS]

00:25:39   think they think at that level of being [TS]

00:25:41   four boys anyway Brianna go ahead [TS]

00:25:43   no I was I was just gonna make two [TS]

00:25:45   points like first I agree with your [TS]

00:25:47   posture that it's it's definitely [TS]

00:25:49   getting better it's absolutely getting [TS]

00:25:51   better in geek culture but I think [TS]

00:25:54   something that we really have to think [TS]

00:25:56   about is the way that women are [TS]

00:25:59   generally portrayed in geek culture you [TS]

00:26:02   know like um yeah we talked about [TS]

00:26:03   superhero movies um you're the woman the [TS]

00:26:06   women that we see are almost always [TS]

00:26:08   gorgeous and they're in their twenties [TS]

00:26:11   and you very almost never see women [TS]

00:26:14   outside of that very narrow range of [TS]

00:26:16   roles like even in Doctor Who a series i [TS]

00:26:19   think is generally pretty good at being [TS]

00:26:22   you giving women kind of more of a fair [TS]

00:26:24   shake [TS]

00:26:25   I think you really see women are [TS]

00:26:27   portrayed in this very narrow range and [TS]

00:26:30   I think that has extremely serious [TS]

00:26:31   consequences [TS]

00:26:33   um the other thing that was going to say [TS]

00:26:34   is I i think that it is better for geek [TS]

00:26:38   culture as a whole but the industry i'm [TS]

00:26:40   in video games [TS]

00:26:43   it's not better and it is a it is a [TS]

00:26:47   fight every single day and I find myself [TS]

00:26:49   in the middle of this street fight and [TS]

00:26:52   adjacent the beginning of this you were [TS]

00:26:55   talking about can boys feeling like it [TS]

00:26:58   was their space [TS]

00:26:59   um I think if it's bad and geek culture [TS]

00:27:01   it is beyond pronounced in video game [TS]

00:27:04   culture and you're just getting like [TS]

00:27:08   this is a culture where people celebrate [TS]

00:27:10   when excellent games like Tomb Raider [TS]

00:27:13   with female protagonist fail financially [TS]

00:27:16   I mean yeah this is it it's extremely [TS]

00:27:20   problematic so i guess i would just be a [TS]

00:27:23   little hesitant to you portray the issue [TS]

00:27:26   like you know it's all this is not one [TS]

00:27:28   space this is a whole bunch of [TS]

00:27:30   interconnected cultures [TS]

00:27:31   yeah that are in various places i was [TS]

00:27:34   going to mention my ipod twelve-year-old [TS]

00:27:36   daughter she loves video games also but [TS]

00:27:38   the stuff that she loves honestly is [TS]

00:27:40   stuff that he does feel like it's a [TS]

00:27:43   safer place [TS]

00:27:43   it's it's minecraft it's a bunch of [TS]

00:27:45   nintendo stuff it's uh you know connect [TS]

00:27:49   a various connect like dancing games in [TS]

00:27:52   the Star Wars games and things like that [TS]

00:27:54   it's not when she's not at the age yet [TS]

00:27:56   she's getting close where a lot of the [TS]

00:27:59   stuff that's marketed to teenage boys [TS]

00:28:02   where there's lots of you know shooting [TS]

00:28:05   and stuff and that's like the mainstream [TS]

00:28:07   and she's just not there yet and that's [TS]

00:28:09   my concern is that she's going to enter [TS]

00:28:11   a period where she's ready for the [TS]

00:28:13   broader world of games and those games [TS]

00:28:16   aren't going to be for her [TS]

00:28:18   they're not going to speak to her and [TS]

00:28:20   they're not going to want her presence [TS]

00:28:21   and that that concerns me because i love [TS]

00:28:25   the fact that she loves video games and [TS]

00:28:27   I want you know I i know that sounds [TS]

00:28:28   crazy for a parent to say but welcome to [TS]

00:28:30   the 21st century I want her to engage [TS]

00:28:32   with video games I don't want her to [TS]

00:28:34   turn away from it because I think that's [TS]

00:28:35   you know I i think it they're great and [TS]

00:28:38   and she shouldn't get driven out because [TS]

00:28:40   they're for boys that's really offensive [TS]

00:28:42   to me but I'm worried that we're on the [TS]

00:28:43   precipice of that because the next level [TS]

00:28:46   up is a lot tougher than the stuff [TS]

00:28:49   that's at the nintendo in Minecraft [TS]

00:28:51   level III think it's getting better [TS]

00:28:53   ica getting better like just on just [TS]

00:28:55   today [TS]

00:28:56   new tomb raider was announced I think [TS]

00:28:58   tomb raider such a northstar for we're [TS]

00:29:01   at the industry needs to go on this [TS]

00:29:03   issue lara croft started her video game [TS]

00:29:07   career as like this large breasted sex [TS]

00:29:11   symbol that was for the male gaze and [TS]

00:29:13   wedged it was very clear issues [TS]

00:29:16   appealing to although to be fair that [TS]

00:29:18   was my wife's favorite console game the [TS]

00:29:20   tomb raider for playstation absolutely [TS]

00:29:23   and you know I think my point but you're [TS]

00:29:25   writing any women that like that [TS]

00:29:27   character she and she rolled her eyes a [TS]

00:29:28   lot of the stuff that was in it right [TS]

00:29:29   but she still liked it but last year you [TS]

00:29:32   had the franchise taken over by female [TS]

00:29:35   rider Rhianna Pratchett who is excellent [TS]

00:29:38   and you had the lead character turned [TS]

00:29:41   into i think from this sex symbol into [TS]

00:29:44   one of the most actualized interesting [TS]

00:29:48   three-dimensional women in video game [TS]

00:29:51   history that has intricate relationships [TS]

00:29:54   with her female friends who isn't just a [TS]

00:29:58   sex symbol for the men and you have [TS]

00:30:01   another sequel coming out with that and [TS]

00:30:03   I guess my message to your daughter is [TS]

00:30:06   it's getting better [TS]

00:30:07   there are different narratives out there [TS]

00:30:09   for her but it doesn't happen [TS]

00:30:12   serendipitously like their women in the [TS]

00:30:14   industry like rhianna pratchett who [TS]

00:30:16   really thought for certain lines in that [TS]

00:30:18   game you know and their women like me [TS]

00:30:21   that are trying to do different things [TS]

00:30:22   in the genre so you know there's it is [TS]

00:30:26   not just gonna happen magically yeah [TS]

00:30:29   it's it's a it's funny the I don't know [TS]

00:30:33   it is it's it being with her on the [TS]

00:30:35   verge of being a teenager this is the [TS]

00:30:37   this is a one of those issues is that is [TS]

00:30:40   that there is always a new wave of of [TS]

00:30:43   cultural stuff that comes pouring in and [TS]

00:30:45   there's that question again about what's [TS]

00:30:47   the what you said about video game [TS]

00:30:49   culture being different from some of [TS]

00:30:50   these other you know sci-fi and TV and [TS]

00:30:52   movie fandom and comics and maybe even [TS]

00:30:54   and with with each be aged wave you have [TS]

00:30:59   to process that too so that's that's my [TS]

00:31:01   concern although it's good to hear that [TS]

00:31:02   that you know because I want her to stay [TS]

00:31:04   engaged she does you know she does love [TS]

00:31:06   this stuff and and [TS]

00:31:07   I I you know I hope that she's at the [TS]

00:31:10   vanguard of a generation of girls who [TS]

00:31:12   are going to play games and I'm not get [TS]

00:31:14   driven out by you know things that are [TS]

00:31:17   all about what boys like I hope she'll [TS]

00:31:19   enjoy games and she'll look to what it's [TS]

00:31:22   like in 2014 where there are women in [TS]

00:31:25   the industry that are making games and i [TS]

00:31:27   hope that you know she'll see that there [TS]

00:31:29   are possibilities models out there for [TS]

00:31:31   her if she wants to she can go do this [TS]

00:31:34   in the industry herself and you know [TS]

00:31:35   ultimately we're talking about comics or [TS]

00:31:39   your video games [TS]

00:31:40   ultimately the answer to a lot of these [TS]

00:31:42   things is to simply get more women [TS]

00:31:44   involved in the process and then these [TS]

00:31:46   issues solve themselves it's doing that [TS]

00:31:48   in comics I've noticed because if you go [TS]

00:31:51   if you go to the internet especially the [TS]

00:31:53   women who write and produce their own [TS]

00:31:55   comments are doing really interesting [TS]

00:31:56   work and in many cases it's a lot more [TS]

00:31:59   compelling artistically narrative Lee [TS]

00:32:01   than than what you might actually see [TS]

00:32:03   being mean I'm printed and producing a [TS]

00:32:06   comic book store there's one girls [TS]

00:32:09   tumblr i follow ginger Hayes was her [TS]

00:32:12   name-o Noelle Stevenson Ramona I was [TS]

00:32:15   going to mention our love demoniac so [TS]

00:32:16   much i love moaning so much yeah [TS]

00:32:19   yes on what you know she's one example [TS]

00:32:22   there's another one called strong female [TS]

00:32:25   protagonist and oh you know who i'm [TS]

00:32:28   thinking of it some she's part she does [TS]

00:32:33   the comic gosh i'm blanking on her name [TS]

00:32:35   but she does that the great comics and [TS]

00:32:37   about like that the strong woman [TS]

00:32:39   feminists ok you know country accents [TS]

00:32:43   podcast and also going to Jason but the [TS]

00:32:45   but the point is plenty [TS]

00:32:46   there's there's plenty of knishes being [TS]

00:32:49   filled being created and filled online [TS]

00:32:51   and every time I read about the comics [TS]

00:32:53   industries in trouble i think well you [TS]

00:32:55   know the old school comics industry is [TS]

00:32:57   in trouble but you've got a whole [TS]

00:32:58   generation of women who are are [TS]

00:33:00   basically crafting the industry that [TS]

00:33:01   they would like to see and i find that [TS]

00:33:03   incredibly exciting i find webcomics to [TS]

00:33:05   be one of the most exciting and vibrant [TS]

00:33:07   places to be and I think it's also good [TS]

00:33:09   space for feminist then can I ask you a [TS]

00:33:11   question about that though because I see [TS]

00:33:13   you know I really love comics too and [TS]

00:33:16   you know I honestly go [TS]

00:33:18   I don't read webcomics oh look at DC [TS]

00:33:21   and you know whether it's DC or marvel [TS]

00:33:23   or idw yeah it's the same thing every [TS]

00:33:27   single you know couple of weeks when i [TS]

00:33:30   put up the ipad and look at it it's like [TS]

00:33:31   who's making something that's aimed at [TS]

00:33:34   me and I do see very few female artists [TS]

00:33:40   i do see you're relatively few female [TS]

00:33:43   writers and I see almost no books that [TS]

00:33:45   are about women like I know there's a [TS]

00:33:47   new x-men book that's coming out that's [TS]

00:33:48   all d of x men women [TS]

00:33:51   I'm really psyched about that you know [TS]

00:33:53   I'm i I've read a few issues of that and [TS]

00:33:55   i thought i would be really excited [TS]

00:33:57   about that you're not going [TS]

00:33:58   yeah well and bearing in mind i'm also [TS]

00:34:00   batting away that the ghost of my [TS]

00:34:02   childhood where like age 12 and 13 I [TS]

00:34:04   drove my own x roster that was solely [TS]

00:34:06   women and i have my own imaginary [TS]

00:34:08   character i would have injected in there [TS]

00:34:10   and so you know you personally I was [TS]

00:34:12   just kinda disappointed with how it [TS]

00:34:13   started and i also wonder again I think [TS]

00:34:19   there's a lot of baggage because it [TS]

00:34:21   starts off with jubilation lee becoming [TS]

00:34:23   an adoptive mother and taking care of a [TS]

00:34:24   baby interesting strange circumstances [TS]

00:34:26   and this motherly drive pushes her [TS]

00:34:28   narrative along and I found myself [TS]

00:34:31   thinking why why does it always have to [TS]

00:34:33   be Parenthood that provides you it is [TS]

00:34:37   here [TS]

00:34:38   that's a conversation that we had a very [TS]

00:34:40   talking about Doctor Who if you look at [TS]

00:34:42   the history of Doctor Who there are a [TS]

00:34:43   decent number of female villains in the [TS]

00:34:47   series which is kind of a cool thing [TS]

00:34:48   however it's a little bit alarming the [TS]

00:34:50   number of them that are motivated by [TS]

00:34:52   either maternal instinct or or something [TS]

00:34:56   that's specifically feminine yeah it's a [TS]

00:34:58   little fat to get back to bring them to [TS]

00:35:01   get back to put the comics on about [TS]

00:35:04   another one with my love for Gail Simone [TS]

00:35:05   she's one of the best riders out there [TS]

00:35:07   and i think that the rehab job she did [TS]

00:35:09   on birds of prey I think what DC Comics [TS]

00:35:11   did to all the characters that she [TS]

00:35:13   worked so hard to rehab I think that's [TS]

00:35:14   one of the biggest cultural crimes of [TS]

00:35:15   the last 10 years yeah and that's saying [TS]

00:35:18   a lot given what they what they've done [TS]

00:35:19   anybody to yeah yeah there's also did [TS]

00:35:23   you read our red hood and the outlaws [TS]

00:35:25   ya know [TS]

00:35:26   there's also willow Western willow [TS]

00:35:31   willow Wilson I'm i was i was going to [TS]

00:35:33   say something that some marvel as Miss [TS]

00:35:35   has ms marvel which is written by willow [TS]

00:35:38   Wilson which is a great comic with a [TS]

00:35:40   female protagonist sure I i hate to say [TS]

00:35:43   this though it's like every time I bring [TS]

00:35:44   up examples it's like I i think i can [TS]

00:35:46   call the examples because they're the [TS]

00:35:48   exception [TS]

00:35:49   he writes like there's the Captain [TS]

00:35:50   Marvel series that Kelly sue deconnick [TS]

00:35:52   rights and of course [TS]

00:35:54   ah saga by bryan cave on Fiona staples [TS]

00:35:58   does the are for that and they are very [TS]

00:36:00   much a collaborative set of storytellers [TS]

00:36:02   there but you know again I break a bond [TS]

00:36:05   works for women period because you look [TS]

00:36:07   at y the last man that was you know he [TS]

00:36:09   and Pia did all that great work together [TS]

00:36:11   and I think you can't underestimate the [TS]

00:36:14   impact of women behind the scenes I mean [TS]

00:36:16   if it weren't for Karen Berger you [TS]

00:36:17   wouldn't have vertigo and vertical [TS]

00:36:19   vertical was kind of the entryway for a [TS]

00:36:21   lot of women into comics you here and it [TS]

00:36:23   was a great way to slide sideways into [TS]

00:36:25   the the types and flight John rubee cuz [TS]

00:36:27   you know what once you find once you [TS]

00:36:29   find some crossover so you can follow [TS]

00:36:30   artists um you know if you go but one of [TS]

00:36:34   the things that you know obviously we [TS]

00:36:36   like to do on this podcast is talking [TS]

00:36:38   about the work so I you brought up an [TS]

00:36:39   interesting point there Lisa which is [TS]

00:36:40   are there things that that that all of [TS]

00:36:43   you you know individually found as as [TS]

00:36:48   something that pops out is as being like [TS]

00:36:49   oh this is this is actually for me the [TS]

00:36:52   speaks to me this is not exclusionary [TS]

00:36:54   what are those one of those things I'm [TS]

00:36:56   curious i'm interested in my my mind was [TS]

00:36:59   blown when Final Fantasy 6 came out I [TS]

00:37:03   mean this is a game that you know it [TS]

00:37:06   starts on Terra who is this be male [TS]

00:37:09   protagonist and she's hurting inside and [TS]

00:37:12   she's been she's been used by like this [TS]

00:37:14   evil this evil empire and have final [TS]

00:37:18   fantasy i know a lot of people like to [TS]

00:37:20   to bag on it but it is a series with [TS]

00:37:23   some of the most amazing female [TS]

00:37:27   protagonists in all of videogame history [TS]

00:37:29   and look at celess you look at look at [TS]

00:37:33   arm you know right up from final fantasy [TS]

00:37:35   for look at you look at teeth and [TS]

00:37:40   in fantasy 7 or you know there's in and [TS]

00:37:43   seeing this wonderful mix of beautiful [TS]

00:37:47   art of narrative of caring about [TS]

00:37:50   characters and seeing women is you know [TS]

00:37:54   agents and not a girlfriend that people [TS]

00:37:56   that were actually doing things it was [TS]

00:37:59   it was single-handedly like if i work in [TS]

00:38:02   game development today it is because i [TS]

00:38:04   was obsessed with those games as a child [TS]

00:38:06   and they spoke to me so so fiercely you [TS]

00:38:10   know Jason hope that happens with your [TS]

00:38:11   daughter [TS]

00:38:12   I mean yeah we need more women in the [TS]

00:38:14   ranks of game dad I'd love for something [TS]

00:38:16   to speak to her just that powerful she's [TS]

00:38:18   one of two girls in her tech class and [TS]

00:38:21   in middle school and she's but you know [TS]

00:38:24   what she loves it and she signed up for [TS]

00:38:26   for for next year too and it it actually [TS]

00:38:28   really makes me mad that her more [TS]

00:38:30   friends aren't in that class because it [TS]

00:38:31   does mean mean that she's you know one [TS]

00:38:34   of two or three instead of one of half [TS]

00:38:37   the class when you mentioned a videogame [TS]

00:38:40   protagonist I i love the fact that [TS]

00:38:42   portals protagonist is a woman and it [TS]

00:38:44   doesn't matter and that they just said [TS]

00:38:46   look Chelle is the protagonist and you [TS]

00:38:49   play this game as a woman and I mean I [TS]

00:38:51   that felt like a big middle finger to [TS]

00:38:53   man who don't get all right doubt bio [TS]

00:38:57   but i can't play as a woman [TS]

00:38:59   it's like it's a great game speaking of [TS]

00:39:01   that actually with what kind of my [TS]

00:39:03   biggest moment I think in that was video [TS]

00:39:06   game it was playing metroid metroid was [TS]

00:39:08   one of the first Nintendo games on the [TS]

00:39:10   old nes that I ever finished and like [TS]

00:39:12   completed I think before my brother even [TS]

00:39:14   did oh my god [TS]

00:39:15   and when you find a hope that you've [TS]

00:39:18   been playing as a woman this whole time [TS]

00:39:20   when you didn't know if I was just like [TS]

00:39:21   I mean yeah like the angels were singing [TS]

00:39:24   hosannas above my head [TS]

00:39:26   hallelujah it was it was amazing but [TS]

00:39:28   honestly that's the only the only thing [TS]

00:39:31   that I can point to that it was such a [TS]

00:39:33   light bulb moment I think I was really [TS]

00:39:35   really lucky in that I just sort of [TS]

00:39:38   consumed so much stuff and without even [TS]

00:39:42   recognizing it consciously I gravitated [TS]

00:39:45   towards the things that were a little [TS]

00:39:47   bit more i guess maybe not [TS]

00:39:49   female-centric even in the storylines [TS]

00:39:51   but they were written by women [TS]

00:39:52   even if I didn't necessarily know that [TS]

00:39:54   in the time when i moved to Canada I got [TS]

00:39:56   rid of almost all of my books boohoo [TS]

00:39:59   oh but the few the few that i saved our [TS]

00:40:02   on a shelf next to me and I actually I [TS]

00:40:04   didn't exactly do this on purpose but [TS]

00:40:06   just like they're really important [TS]

00:40:07   series that are sitting next to me are [TS]

00:40:09   Robin hobb and Julian may both of which [TS]

00:40:13   i didn't even know where women when i [TS]

00:40:14   read those books [TS]

00:40:16   oh my gosh all with Erica have you and I [TS]

00:40:18   talked about urgent need to do Julian a [TS]

00:40:20   podcast yet don't think so but I am in [TS]

00:40:23   argued because I i have lots of feelings [TS]

00:40:25   about the remote yard dynasty and I need [TS]

00:40:27   to explore them with somebody [TS]

00:40:28   ok oh my god dad really felt first [TS]

00:40:31   person I've met in real life who's read [TS]

00:40:33   these books i'm not kidding you I'm I'm [TS]

00:40:36   sitting right next to them you know [TS]

00:40:38   because I've got the Pleistocene i put [TS]

00:40:39   the police in epic downstairs and boxes [TS]

00:40:41   and I have to get another copy of the [TS]

00:40:45   jackal bodyless trilogy [TS]

00:40:46   oh wow anyway alright you put on the [TS]

00:40:49   list and written science fiction [TS]

00:40:52   actually is one of those areas where I [TS]

00:40:53   feel like they're worth [TS]

00:40:54   women's voices a lot longer and not only [TS]

00:40:57   did you have Giants in the field like [TS]

00:40:59   Ursula Gwyn writing science fiction [TS]

00:41:01   novel on the Shelf to but but you also [TS]

00:41:04   had of course all the women who were [TS]

00:41:06   writing underpin names and nobody knew [TS]

00:41:09   they were Andre Norton we'll never [TS]

00:41:11   underestimate the impact of Medellin [TS]

00:41:13   angle [TS]

00:41:13   no yeah oh yeah so she had both of those [TS]

00:41:16   I I did every now and then I blow [TS]

00:41:18   somebody away when I point out some Star [TS]

00:41:20   Trek fan that they'll know now i guess [TS]

00:41:22   there was a time when I would point out [TS]

00:41:24   the DC fontana who wrote the most [TS]

00:41:26   world-building important and was also up [TS]

00:41:29   I think she rewrote Gene Roddenberry [TS]

00:41:31   because he was not a very good writer up [TS]

00:41:33   that would be Fontana's a woman that's [TS]

00:41:35   Dorothy Fontana like what it's like yes [TS]

00:41:38   but but the fact that many women had to [TS]

00:41:40   take gender neutral or mail pen names [TS]

00:41:43   still my point is I felt like written [TS]

00:41:46   science fiction had maybe more more of [TS]

00:41:48   those voices then then TV or movies or [TS]

00:41:52   certainly video games have had [TS]

00:41:54   historically what's funny those the [TS]

00:41:56   x-men were actually the first thing I [TS]

00:41:58   thought was from all of us as yeah yeah [TS]

00:42:00   and in bear in mind this is even the [TS]

00:42:02   nineteen eighties when they [TS]

00:42:04   for the costumes are horrible and and [TS]

00:42:08   I'm I'm too young to have been [TS]

00:42:11   significantly invested in Jean Grey's [TS]

00:42:13   the character I've talked to women were [TS]

00:42:14   about 10 years older and they've talked [TS]

00:42:16   about the incredible sense of betrayal [TS]

00:42:18   that they felt / / how genes been [TS]

00:42:21   treating the comics off but Kitty [TS]

00:42:25   Pryde's my homegirl is at work and when [TS]

00:42:27   i started reading on when i started the [TS]

00:42:29   x-men I was 11 and she was just a few [TS]

00:42:31   years older and so she was kind of my [TS]

00:42:33   avatar so to speak and the New Mutants [TS]

00:42:37   comment came out not long after that and [TS]

00:42:39   that had a couple fantastic strong of [TS]

00:42:42   female protagonists where they were [TS]

00:42:45   protagonists having adventures first and [TS]

00:42:48   girls second and Domino well it was a [TS]

00:42:51   little like no no Danny prof star Sean [TS]

00:42:54   coin men [TS]

00:42:55   Alex you're talking about early as magma [TS]

00:42:58   God brought in and make but yeah I'm a [TS]

00:43:00   Reiki lihue they think that terrible [TS]

00:43:02   things of her [TS]

00:43:03   ileana the french community on and Kitty [TS]

00:43:05   Pryde has always been really interesting [TS]

00:43:07   and kind of nuanced yeah i was going to [TS]

00:43:09   say that as as a teenage boy or preteen [TS]

00:43:12   boy reading the x-men in the in the [TS]

00:43:14   eighties I I'll i love kitty pryde and [TS]

00:43:17   not just like every boy loves kitty [TS]

00:43:19   pryde but I love kitty pryde is a [TS]

00:43:20   character she was the wish fulfillment [TS]

00:43:23   care she was the Wesley Crusher of the [TS]

00:43:25   x-men and to have it be able to have it [TS]

00:43:27   be a girl was great and then the fact [TS]

00:43:30   that her relationship you know she has a [TS]

00:43:32   relationship to Colossus write to Pierre [TS]

00:43:34   bitchy that that's during and get away [TS]

00:43:36   from my kitty pryde anyway but also win [TS]

00:43:39   also but with with ileana right and the [TS]

00:43:41   fact that that I mean the bechdel test [TS]

00:43:44   we can talk about you know it's it's [TS]

00:43:46   it's a tool to point out some issues in [TS]

00:43:49   for some serious issues but I mean x-men [TS]

00:43:52   kitty and ileana's relationship was very [TS]

00:43:54   important and in fact in many ways [TS]

00:43:57   plot-wise it bridged it was the push and [TS]

00:43:59   pull between the new mutants and the [TS]

00:44:01   x-men for a while right and was so great [TS]

00:44:03   yes the X baby she used to call of the [TS]

00:44:07   other comic book series i want to give a [TS]

00:44:08   shout-out to because this is another one [TS]

00:44:10   where I felt it was it was genuinely [TS]

00:44:12   they were trying to do something [TS]

00:44:14   generally radical believe it is elfquest [TS]

00:44:16   by one day tricky i read through that [TS]

00:44:20   when i was 14 15 and I still circle back [TS]

00:44:23   to it and well [TS]

00:44:25   oh my god it's basically like what if to [TS]

00:44:27   blister at nineteen seventies hippie and [TS]

00:44:30   long-running saga about spacefaring [TS]

00:44:33   elves who crash-landed on the planet [TS]

00:44:35   interbreed with wolves and then run to [TS]

00:44:37   the crazy witch and it works and it has [TS]

00:44:41   it is literally every cent 70 science [TS]

00:44:43   fiction convention filk song only have [TS]

00:44:45   awesome awesome government got great [TS]

00:44:48   here but there's a lot of work done [TS]

00:44:51   looking at intergenerational [TS]

00:44:53   relationships there's a lot of work done [TS]

00:44:55   looking at complex and loving [TS]

00:44:57   relationships between men and complex [TS]

00:44:59   and loving relationships between women [TS]

00:45:00   and the content and you know [TS]

00:45:03   leadership is and restricted to one [TS]

00:45:05   gender arm and it's it's it's a great [TS]

00:45:09   series because you can find i think [TS]

00:45:13   almost everybody who reads it can find [TS]

00:45:14   somebody in there that they can they can [TS]

00:45:16   hang their hat on it it it it doesn't [TS]

00:45:18   impose and this is the hero he is a dude [TS]

00:45:21   whatever like in this case the sensible [TS]

00:45:24   hero the screaming qatar has a best [TS]

00:45:26   friend he loves more than life and and [TS]

00:45:28   has occasional sexual relationships [TS]

00:45:30   within else has a wife who is much [TS]

00:45:31   smarter much more talented than he is [TS]

00:45:33   and he knows that he's fine with it and [TS]

00:45:35   it's about this unconventional family [TS]

00:45:38   built together so there's just there's a [TS]

00:45:40   lot going on it and it's and they're [TS]

00:45:42   still writing it [TS]

00:45:43   they're still spitting it out but it was [TS]

00:45:45   it was I think it helps it wasn't tights [TS]

00:45:47   and flights again space for it helps to [TS]

00:45:49   crossbreed with Wolves back crazy while [TS]

00:45:51   we're on comics I oh I also when I just [TS]

00:45:54   kind of remembered something else when I [TS]

00:45:56   i came to comics pretty late and I I had [TS]

00:45:59   a girl that I worked with a number of [TS]

00:46:01   jobs ago who was sort of my comics guru [TS]

00:46:03   and i had already read Sandman but she [TS]

00:46:05   got me onto a bunch of other mostly [TS]

00:46:07   vertigo title since that was what I was [TS]

00:46:09   into and she's like oh you should try [TS]

00:46:10   some of the superhero stuff from Marvel [TS]

00:46:12   and I was like that's just really really [TS]

00:46:14   really doesn't really do it for me she [TS]

00:46:16   should you should try to hear and she [TS]

00:46:18   gave me a lius series about jessica [TS]

00:46:20   jones which in my mind I I didn't [TS]

00:46:23   realize that that there was that sort of [TS]

00:46:25   thing out there in [TS]

00:46:26   the marvel universe and it was just this [TS]

00:46:28   very fully developed character that you [TS]

00:46:30   got to know more and more as service she [TS]

00:46:33   was getting to know herself soon to be a [TS]

00:46:35   netflix television series i think [TS]

00:46:37   clearly i think i think that's I think [TS]

00:46:40   jessica jones is one of the characters [TS]

00:46:42   who they're rolling into those three [TS]

00:46:43   different series they're doing for [TS]

00:46:45   netflix the Marvel of Marvel's doing for [TS]

00:46:47   them you know Runaways at by ended it [TS]

00:46:50   there is bryan cave on again but [TS]

00:46:51   Runaways is a is an ensemble series with [TS]

00:46:55   a lot of strong women characters ya ya [TS]

00:46:57   ya know a if we can go back to x-men for [TS]

00:47:00   a second yes [TS]

00:47:01   Davis ism love exit but i don't think [TS]

00:47:04   that this is a really good microcosm [TS]

00:47:07   into a kind of a fallacy that I think a [TS]

00:47:12   lot of guys have when we're talking [TS]

00:47:14   about issues including women and geek [TS]

00:47:17   culture [TS]

00:47:17   um you know I'm speaking mostly for [TS]

00:47:20   myself here [TS]

00:47:21   I'm i love the x-men and I have fierce [TS]

00:47:25   feelings about psylocke Jean Grey [TS]

00:47:27   jubilee kitty like all of them [TS]

00:47:30   um you know in my favorite era when I [TS]

00:47:33   really started reading it was when Jim [TS]

00:47:36   Lee could use a little bit before [TS]

00:47:38   generally took over launched like just [TS]

00:47:40   the x-men comic not the uncanny x-men [TS]

00:47:42   comic and I feel like so often when we [TS]

00:47:45   talk about these issues um just we focus [TS]

00:47:49   on exactly one thing like what does the [TS]

00:47:52   woman looked like it she's sexy she's [TS]

00:47:54   too sexy how big is her or her boobs you [TS]

00:47:57   know how does our ass look as her [TS]

00:47:59   costume too tight you know and we we [TS]

00:48:01   spend so much time talking about this um [TS]

00:48:04   I don't know about you guys but when I [TS]

00:48:06   think about why i love the x-men the in [TS]

00:48:10   specifically female characters of the [TS]

00:48:12   accident doesn't have anything to do [TS]

00:48:14   with you know what their costumes are [TS]

00:48:17   it's about who they are as people as [TS]

00:48:21   individuals you like when psylocke is [TS]

00:48:23   really struggling with you her own [TS]

00:48:26   identity after going through the siege [TS]

00:48:28   perilous like you know that was [TS]

00:48:30   something i could identify with you [TS]

00:48:33   Jubilees teenage angst I could identify [TS]

00:48:35   with that myself and I feel like all too [TS]

00:48:39   often [TS]

00:48:39   and we end up talking about women that [TS]

00:48:43   are geek fixtures in this purely sexual [TS]

00:48:46   way and I think it's like the most male [TS]

00:48:48   conversation you can never have because [TS]

00:48:50   it's just about evaluating women by [TS]

00:48:52   their looks and I just would really love [TS]

00:48:57   for geek culture to move beyond that [TS]

00:48:59   because personally I love looking at [TS]

00:49:01   gorgeous women drawn well like when Jim [TS]

00:49:04   Lee drew psylocke and Jean Grey and [TS]

00:49:07   storm [TS]

00:49:08   I think that's just unbelievably great [TS]

00:49:09   art and I don't know how you guys feel I [TS]

00:49:12   think you make a great point [TS]

00:49:13   yeah it's also as a you know as these [TS]

00:49:17   III it's very easy to listen to the [TS]

00:49:19   conversation and say well what they're [TS]

00:49:20   really saying is they need more things [TS]

00:49:22   that are all being a by women for women [TS]

00:49:24   starting women all that it's like you [TS]

00:49:26   know what actually I think what we're [TS]

00:49:28   saying is that it's a richer and more [TS]

00:49:31   fulfilling piece of work if it actually [TS]

00:49:33   is based in some level of reality like [TS]

00:49:36   the fact that the world we live in is [TS]

00:49:37   richer for having men and women both in [TS]

00:49:40   it as actors and people who have agency [TS]

00:49:44   and that's what when I look at something [TS]

00:49:46   like like Runaways or III something like [TS]

00:49:49   buffy the vampire slayer' and those are [TS]

00:49:51   both examples of works written by men [TS]

00:49:53   but they are a rich ensemble of [TS]

00:49:56   characters who have interactions with [TS]

00:49:58   each other the women aren't there to be [TS]

00:50:00   sex symbols they are they are integrated [TS]

00:50:04   into the entire story and they all [TS]

00:50:07   interact with each other as people and [TS]

00:50:09   you know that's that's it's kind of [TS]

00:50:12   really sad that I have to make that [TS]

00:50:14   statement but you know there are lots of [TS]

00:50:16   examples where the women are not there [TS]

00:50:18   to do and you mentioned read that [TS]

00:50:20   infamous red hood and the outlaws comic [TS]

00:50:23   but there are lots of other examples [TS]

00:50:25   by the way I love that are the guy that [TS]

00:50:27   that art came from [TS]

00:50:29   I Scotland down study a lot with jay [TS]

00:50:31   scott campbell if you look at the art of [TS]

00:50:33   my game revolution 60 I've stayed the [TS]

00:50:36   hell out of j scott campbell he's had a [TS]

00:50:38   huge influence in my work and it's all [TS]

00:50:41   about intent there like many threats red [TS]

00:50:45   hood and the outlaws is really [TS]

00:50:46   interesting comment because you know [TS]

00:50:49   what's her name is a Starfire and [TS]

00:50:53   our fire yeah yeah Starfire she's [TS]

00:50:55   becomes an interesting complex character [TS]

00:50:58   and later books but they just portray [TS]

00:51:00   her sis sex symbol from the beginning so [TS]

00:51:03   again it's not in speaking for me it's [TS]

00:51:06   not the sex it's not the being portrayed [TS]

00:51:09   as someone this beautiful it's the male [TS]

00:51:12   gaze is the intent like is this woman [TS]

00:51:15   just here to look at my my recollection [TS]

00:51:17   I did read a lot of the old issues of [TS]

00:51:19   Teen Titans but there was that your teen [TS]

00:51:20   titans was really trying to be the CDC's [TS]

00:51:22   x-men and my understanding is that that [TS]

00:51:26   character was I mean you could have been [TS]

00:51:31   actively trying to have it both ways but [TS]

00:51:32   she's sexy she's also supposed to be [TS]

00:51:34   because of her attitude toward humans [TS]

00:51:37   and people and sex and things like that [TS]

00:51:39   she's actually supposed to be kind of [TS]

00:51:41   transgressive and I don't know whether [TS]

00:51:43   you'd say that she was satirical or [TS]

00:51:45   whether she's supposed to be challenging [TS]

00:51:46   a lot of except at what we accept and [TS]

00:51:49   you know again she was supposed to be [TS]

00:51:51   more than just the one thing and I'm i'm [TS]

00:51:54   sure it was done better after the [TS]

00:51:56   eighties but you know again I feel like [TS]

00:51:58   they were trying to have it both ways [TS]

00:51:59   but there was at least some aspect of [TS]

00:52:01   her that was meant to be [TS]

00:52:02   not you know they were supposed to be [TS]

00:52:04   another level [TS]

00:52:05   yeah it comes across as very Heinlein [TS]

00:52:07   and 98 that's a big theme with timeline [TS]

00:52:10   but it's always can I just wouldn't buy [TS]

00:52:12   this dirty old man you know [TS]

00:52:14   yeah they did the Heinlein highline it [TS]

00:52:16   was that you know you're exactly right i [TS]

00:52:18   read when I was in high school I read I [TS]

00:52:20   will fear no evil which is on one level [TS]

00:52:22   this kind of fascinating book about [TS]

00:52:26   gender norms and all that because it's [TS]

00:52:28   about like an old rich guy who needs a [TS]

00:52:31   new body and he gets his brain put in a [TS]

00:52:33   female body but on another level it's [TS]

00:52:36   really not [TS]

00:52:37   mm no I got 30 seconds into it i love [TS]

00:52:40   Heinlein moon is a harsh mistress is my [TS]

00:52:42   favorite novel and I couldn't even make [TS]

00:52:44   it through 30 pages of that it was so [TS]

00:52:45   offensive [TS]

00:52:46   so you're right because it's the second [TS]

00:52:48   level completely undercuts the first [TS]

00:52:50   level and it's well it's like he wrote [TS]

00:52:52   he wrote a book [TS]

00:52:53   didn't I just read an article about this [TS]

00:52:55   later in life that was very was like a [TS]

00:52:56   planet where the the white people are [TS]

00:52:58   enslaved by the black people and it's [TS]

00:53:00   like supposed to be this see we need to [TS]

00:53:02   all get along and rate as raised as [TS]

00:53:04   races and we're all equal man [TS]

00:53:05   except on another level it is the worst [TS]

00:53:07   racial stereotyping you will ever see [TS]

00:53:09   right so since a level to just [TS]

00:53:12   completely blows away any potential [TS]

00:53:14   cleverness of level 1 so by the way I it [TS]

00:53:17   in our chat room i posted a link to the [TS]

00:53:19   x-men women poster that i actually did [TS]

00:53:21   possess when I was a teenager and all i [TS]

00:53:23   have to say is I'm so very sorry [TS]

00:53:25   this is one of the problems with the [TS]

00:53:27   x-men and stuff its marketing all the [TS]

00:53:28   lease at the same reaction I had to [TS]

00:53:30   watching it now which is the most [TS]

00:53:31   offensive thing is that rogue has a [TS]

00:53:33   person stars and bars confederate flag [TS]

00:53:35   towel at the swimming pool [TS]

00:53:37   what is she thinking it's not even [TS]

00:53:39   well-drawn no it's no it's really on [TS]

00:53:42   what about that didn't that didn't I [TS]

00:53:44   didn't that's not a keeper [TS]

00:53:46   I kept some of my posters from that era [TS]

00:53:47   that was recycled speaking of movie [TS]

00:53:50   posters that is one of the the places [TS]

00:53:52   that I think we still see this obnoxious [TS]

00:53:54   you know that the hoses on mom's ya [TS]

00:53:57   comic covers however i would like to [TS]

00:53:59   point out that the hobbit the desolation [TS]

00:54:02   of smaug had one poster that I mean ok [TS]

00:54:05   so the hobbit had no women it to start [TS]

00:54:07   with so they had they had a female [TS]

00:54:10   character [TS]

00:54:10   yeah I'm good for them for that and [TS]

00:54:12   there is a great great poster that has [TS]

00:54:15   torial and legolas on the posters just [TS]

00:54:17   the two of them and tutorials in this [TS]

00:54:19   badass pose i can't remember what she's [TS]

00:54:21   doing with her weapon but like she's [TS]

00:54:22   looking stuff and then you've got less [TS]

00:54:24   kind of in the background doing the butt [TS]

00:54:25   pose [TS]

00:54:26   it's totally backwards and i love it [TS]

00:54:27   it's so great i think that's what i [TS]

00:54:29   liked about the avengers movie posters [TS]

00:54:31   will let came out and everybody probably [TS]

00:54:33   flip the script and started [TS]

00:54:34   photoshopping their own are online and [TS]

00:54:36   pushed back and so just say yes it is [TS]

00:54:38   totally natural to have every male [TS]

00:54:40   adventure doing something which implies [TS]

00:54:41   there man of action while the Black [TS]

00:54:44   Widow shows us that she doesn't eat [TS]

00:54:45   carbs and it was a sign that it is that [TS]

00:54:48   it is getting better because we see this [TS]

00:54:50   pushback people are starting to notice [TS]

00:54:51   it i mean you know they're there is push [TS]

00:54:55   back but how many more boobies have you [TS]

00:54:57   gone to this year where women have been [TS]

00:54:59   Smurf added spider-man to fail you know [TS]

00:55:03   Captain America to fail new x-men movie [TS]

00:55:06   ok doesn't totally fail but fails you [TS]

00:55:09   know and I was kind of disappointed the [TS]

00:55:12   new x-men movie precisely because I I i [TS]

00:55:16   thought you know if you're going to go [TS]

00:55:17   to all this trouble top-up I should say [TS]

00:55:19   I [TS]

00:55:19   love the movie yeah and I thought you [TS]

00:55:22   know I fog mystique was fantastic and i [TS]

00:55:24   like that they basically make her the [TS]

00:55:27   force for chaos witness it as opposed to [TS]

00:55:29   Charles and and Eric's 10 your breakup [TS]

00:55:34   but I'm here [TS]

00:55:35   oh come on it but what everybody got [TS]

00:55:39   together already [TS]

00:55:40   but you know if not exactly but you know [TS]

00:55:42   if you're going to go to all this [TS]

00:55:43   trouble to come on there could be there [TS]

00:55:45   could be more Lady use the seventies who [TS]

00:55:47   could have done something you know I [TS]

00:55:49   felt like I am interested in your [TS]

00:55:51   comment about the captain america movie [TS]

00:55:52   because I thought that the captain [TS]

00:55:53   america movie The Black Widow came off [TS]

00:55:54   pretty well in that in that she didn't [TS]

00:55:56   she was not i mean there there is you [TS]

00:55:59   can actually feel it in the theater I [TS]

00:56:00   felt it within myself there is this [TS]

00:56:02   thing like we'll wait a second [TS]

00:56:03   she's a woman in the superhero movie [TS]

00:56:05   they got a pair up with somebody there's [TS]

00:56:07   going to be some sort of thing and all [TS]

00:56:08   that and you know they don't play that [TS]

00:56:10   game she is AKA comrade of steve rogers [TS]

00:56:13   and I have no objection to how they [TS]

00:56:16   portrayed her moving my objection is a [TS]

00:56:18   Smurfette her and what I mean by [TS]

00:56:20   Smurfette her is in video games in comic [TS]

00:56:23   books there's one woman i I'm so damn [TS]

00:56:27   sick of this rumor has it that they're [TS]

00:56:30   gonna make a captain marvel movie that [TS]

00:56:32   there's one in development potentially [TS]

00:56:34   with the with the actual modern female [TS]

00:56:38   captain marvel which would be awesome [TS]

00:56:41   that would be that would be nice to see [TS]

00:56:43   to be honest if they were to reboot [TS]

00:56:45   agents of shield and basically make it [TS]

00:56:46   Melinda may and her awesome badass [TS]

00:56:48   backup and i would totally watch that [TS]

00:56:51   because that was my favorite character [TS]

00:56:52   on that show this year I don't think [TS]

00:56:54   we're going to do that to I honestly [TS]

00:56:55   thought the resolution was going to be [TS]

00:56:56   that it wasn't actually Coulson which [TS]

00:56:59   didn't turn out to be the case and that [TS]

00:57:00   they say look like regular need to do a [TS]

00:57:02   year and then we'll just hand it off and [TS]

00:57:04   it'll be molded amazed all-stars [TS]

00:57:06   I don't know maybe the maybe you know [TS]

00:57:07   maybe Briana the bar is so low that I [TS]

00:57:10   was just relieved that that that the [TS]

00:57:13   Black Widow was portrayed competently as [TS]

00:57:16   a professional even though she was [TS]

00:57:18   smurfette and that she didn't [TS]

00:57:20   immediately go weak at the knees over [TS]

00:57:22   the winter soldier who has a long-lost [TS]

00:57:24   Red Room boyfriend or whatever I was [TS]

00:57:25   really glad that we dodged that bullet [TS]

00:57:27   because I was worried we were going to [TS]

00:57:28   get there [TS]

00:57:29   there's a tiny yeah there's a tiny [TS]

00:57:34   cynical part of me that thinks the [TS]

00:57:35   reason they threw her into captain [TS]

00:57:36   america 2 with something they can [TS]

00:57:38   sidestep any well we don't need to make [TS]

00:57:40   a Black Widow movie because she's it she [TS]

00:57:42   pops up these other ones [TS]

00:57:43   whereas i would love to see a black [TS]

00:57:45   would definitely I think it'd be great [TS]

00:57:47   you could argue that the captain america [TS]

00:57:48   movie isn't a captain america movie it's [TS]

00:57:49   a shield movie [TS]

00:57:51   yeah and that and therefore all the [TS]

00:57:53   shield people are in it and she's a [TS]

00:57:54   SHIELD person [TS]

00:57:55   yeah but yeah other than that Hawkeye [TS]

00:57:57   and i can only assume he's posing for [TS]

00:57:59   posters or something [TS]

00:58:00   well this is the star trek argument [TS]

00:58:01   right cuz Star Trek was given so much [TS]

00:58:02   credit rightfully so for being [TS]

00:58:04   incredibly diverse but if you look at [TS]

00:58:06   that cast now the original cast [TS]

00:58:08   it's like well they had one woman had [TS]

00:58:10   one black person the same person but [TS]

00:58:13   we'll just put those together and then [TS]

00:58:15   they had mr. Sulu and then yeah that was [TS]

00:58:19   it so and then a supernumeraries right [TS]

00:58:23   there yet that was groundbreaking at the [TS]

00:58:24   time but I i think i think Star Trek is [TS]

00:58:27   such a good example of how geek culture [TS]

00:58:30   uses a male ruler to evaluate things and [TS]

00:58:35   doesn't even think about it [TS]

00:58:37   um my favorite star track by miles and [TS]

00:58:40   miles and miles and miles is Star Trek [TS]

00:58:43   Voyager you have you have a kick-ass [TS]

00:58:46   extremely complicated interesting [TS]

00:58:49   captain you have a female engineer who [TS]

00:58:53   is wrestling with her Klingon side in a [TS]

00:58:56   really interesting way you have [TS]

00:58:59   okay Cass isn't that great you found [TS]

00:59:01   seven of nine who I would put up against [TS]

00:59:04   Spock I would put up against any other [TS]

00:59:07   character in all of Star Trek history [TS]

00:59:10   ever is probably the best character in [TS]

00:59:13   all star trac been awesome at her job [TS]

00:59:16   deadly competent awesome character art [TS]

00:59:19   great plots about her but it's held up [TS]

00:59:23   and there's no star trek this more hated [TS]

00:59:25   than Blecher even enterprise which is [TS]

00:59:28   amazing to me that I don't agree with [TS]

00:59:30   that I together president we were [TS]

00:59:31   someplace here but ya know but you're [TS]

00:59:33   right in phantom it's probably area it [TS]

00:59:35   is so pilloried it is so blasted and [TS]

00:59:39   it's my favorite [TS]

00:59:41   yeah it's my favorite too we don't even [TS]

00:59:42   talk [TS]

00:59:43   about seven of nine as a character i'm [TS]

00:59:45   on the other side of that are ya i don't [TS]

00:59:47   i just got the stories were dome I [TS]

00:59:49   wasn't the characters and yeah like the [TS]

00:59:50   story's already the series finale [TS]

00:59:53   oh that was the book that was the worst [TS]

00:59:54   yeah I felt like they really jipped [TS]

00:59:56   Janeway and I felt like in a way that [TS]

00:59:57   kind of punished her for being who she [TS]

00:59:59   was because [TS]

00:59:59   was because [TS]

01:00:00   as the guy who'd been repeated the blood [TS]

01:00:01   pictures for the whole series runs off [TS]

01:00:03   with the ex cyborg so she can give him [TS]

01:00:06   the emotional fulfillment he needs and I [TS]

01:00:08   thought that's a message to send that a [TS]

01:00:10   woman can gosh the community goes again [TS]

01:00:13   sorry you re a hopeful sign language its [TS]

01:00:18   kind of language with right return [TS]

01:00:20   language to set this message to send it [TS]

01:00:23   you know women can have a career or she [TS]

01:00:24   could have a feeling personal life but [TS]

01:00:26   she doesn't get to have both and yeah [TS]

01:00:28   and that's never ever something that [TS]

01:00:30   comes up for any of the men on the [TS]

01:00:32   series i I've never thought about that [TS]

01:00:34   and watch the episode hundred times [TS]

01:00:36   you're absolutely right card can be a [TS]

01:00:38   hard leader Kurt can be a hard later if [TS]

01:00:41   Janeway makes hard decisions [TS]

01:00:42   what does she end up evil in the end in [TS]

01:00:45   alone in dead alone [TS]

01:00:48   yes yes no one will love you for making [TS]

01:00:51   the hard decisions it's just and it also [TS]

01:00:54   the reason is so baffled angry by that [TS]

01:00:56   is if you take a look at even NASA space [TS]

01:00:58   program with the exception of the lady [TS]

01:01:00   who drove across the country wearing a [TS]

01:01:01   diaper [TS]

01:01:02   nearly every woman nearly every woman [TS]

01:01:05   has gone through NASA's program has not [TS]

01:01:06   only thrived in a professional [TS]

01:01:08   environment she seems to have a decent [TS]

01:01:09   personal life to like we have actual [TS]

01:01:12   live astronauts have commanded missions [TS]

01:01:14   who were doing ok you know balancing out [TS]

01:01:17   everything that they need to feel happy [TS]

01:01:19   and well rounded and then we have a [TS]

01:01:21   fictitious character a couple hundred [TS]

01:01:22   years from now on a post-scarcity [TS]

01:01:24   economy who doesn't get that and she's [TS]

01:01:26   running across diverse cultures everyday [TS]

01:01:28   like what the heck why is this a thing [TS]

01:01:30   no I have to say like is a leader though [TS]

01:01:32   like I run a company in an extremely [TS]

01:01:35   male-dominated the sexist industry and i [TS]

01:01:38   can tell you like I'm held to double [TS]

01:01:40   standards all the time like with [TS]

01:01:43   business deals assign or just in general [TS]

01:01:45   in the industry it's it's very [TS]

01:01:47   frustrating and that's part of why like [TS]

01:01:51   I respond to Janeway [TS]

01:01:52   so strongly like even as a child I saw [TS]

01:01:56   her is like an aspirational figure like [TS]

01:01:59   women can be starship captains and I [TS]

01:02:02   again it just really bothers me that the [TS]

01:02:05   mail geek culture that has this voice [TS]

01:02:08   that drowns out all other opinions just [TS]

01:02:10   cuz I don't like it you can look up the [TS]

01:02:12   DVD review [TS]

01:02:13   is for Star Trek Voyager and like one of [TS]

01:02:16   them is something about like I hate this [TS]

01:02:18   chick captain is flying across the [TS]

01:02:20   galaxy or something like that you guys [TS]

01:02:23   are making the extra happy right now [TS]

01:02:24   that i'm rewatching Babylon 5 [TS]

01:02:26   I think one of the reasons i was dropped [TS]

01:02:28   so drawn to it was because what if i [TS]

01:02:30   don't actually delenn because she's just [TS]

01:02:32   one of the most kickass female [TS]

01:02:34   characters ever I mean she it so often [TS]

01:02:37   carries that show i think and hope it [TS]

01:02:40   just makes me happy yeah you know I've [TS]

01:02:42   never seen the oh yeah Oh watch it [TS]

01:02:45   there's a podcast you should be that's [TS]

01:02:47   what they're doing a rewatch from the [TS]

01:02:48   beginning that as a matter of fact turn [TS]

01:02:51   sounds Erica might be all but yeah [TS]

01:02:54   anyway it's maybe I've been listening [TS]

01:02:56   and watching [TS]

01:02:57   oh thanks yeah oh yeah see there's a [TS]

01:03:00   plug right there we were actually a [TS]

01:03:03   battle and five is an interesting show [TS]

01:03:04   too I mean it was it was made in the 90 [TS]

01:03:06   so you still have a lot of probably more [TS]

01:03:09   strong male characters than you do [TS]

01:03:11   strong female characters but it's much [TS]

01:03:12   more balanced than most of the stuff you [TS]

01:03:14   saw the time and even the crowd scenes I [TS]

01:03:16   I make it a point now in this rewatch to [TS]

01:03:18   just kind of like look at the background [TS]

01:03:20   when they are doing a good crowd scenes [TS]

01:03:22   in the zocalo and it is if not more [TS]

01:03:25   female than male I mean they they have [TS]

01:03:27   really made it a real world in that you [TS]

01:03:29   actually have like people of different [TS]

01:03:31   races and different genders it's great [TS]

01:03:34   yeah thought of battlestar galactica [TS]

01:03:36   reboot did a really great job [TS]

01:03:38   that's why I feel I feel like a lot of [TS]

01:03:41   series and move forward [TS]

01:03:42   that's why I've been so frustrated with [TS]

01:03:45   the star trek reboot which are fantastic [TS]

01:03:48   films but they're just no women in them [TS]

01:03:50   like in the last one star trek into [TS]

01:03:52   darkness like abu huraira is the only [TS]

01:03:54   woman in there and she plays a nagging [TS]

01:03:56   girlfriend the entire time while the men [TS]

01:03:58   go off and have adventures there are no [TS]

01:04:00   female starship captain so they wrote in [TS]

01:04:02   Carol Marcus and then they have the the [TS]

01:04:04   ridiculous scene where she's just in her [TS]

01:04:05   bra straps or no angry why are you [TS]

01:04:07   changing your clothes in the [TS]

01:04:08   shuttlecraft it doesn't make any sense [TS]

01:04:09   but I felt like from from some seriously [TS]

01:04:13   from some remove I look at that as an [TS]

01:04:17   attempt [TS]

01:04:18   I mean I think they're really I i think [TS]

01:04:20   they felt like they couldn't we re [TS]

01:04:23   gender a character like Battlestar [TS]

01:04:26   Galactica [TS]

01:04:27   did and I look at Carol Marcus decision [TS]

01:04:29   as ham-handed as it wasn't way is [TS]

01:04:31   essentially inserting a woman into the [TS]

01:04:34   ensemble so that they can have her in [TS]

01:04:35   there next time right which i think is I [TS]

01:04:38   think that's a good thing it's sort of [TS]

01:04:39   like adding tutorial to the hobbit [TS]

01:04:40   however instead of you know doing the [TS]

01:04:42   awesome rivers poster thing they did [TS]

01:04:44   exactly what they shouldn't have done [TS]

01:04:46   with the bra [TS]

01:04:47   yeah she shows up with a bra and she's [TS]

01:04:50   the daughter of the of the villain and [TS]

01:04:53   they could put a nurse Chapel you know [TS]

01:04:55   she could have been in there too and [TS]

01:04:56   they didn't do that wasn't a case of [TS]

01:04:58   again them inserting another another [TS]

01:05:01   character in the original series later [TS]

01:05:03   to add more women to the mix so I i [TS]

01:05:05   agree i feel like it's tough because [TS]

01:05:07   they already were going up against so [TS]

01:05:09   much in terms of rewriting this sacred [TS]

01:05:12   texts almost of fandom but it it for me [TS]

01:05:17   it shows the most glaring problem which [TS]

01:05:19   is what i said earlier as diverse as it [TS]

01:05:21   seemed at the time if you take the same [TS]

01:05:23   that same set of characters in the [TS]

01:05:25   present day it's not diverse anymore [TS]

01:05:27   although i can't i cannot fault them for [TS]

01:05:30   four not regen during any of the [TS]

01:05:31   characters because the way that they [TS]

01:05:33   started out is it's an alternate [TS]

01:05:34   universe and I don't know it it would [TS]

01:05:36   i'm not sure that i could necessarily [TS]

01:05:38   read it that one change made the [TS]

01:05:41   universe change that suddenly somebody's [TS]

01:05:43   somebody's sex changed a lot of the [TS]

01:05:45   extra characters on the bridge they they [TS]

01:05:48   obviously made a point of having them be [TS]

01:05:50   women but they're not they're not named [TS]

01:05:52   characters they're just super [TS]

01:05:54   supernumeraries so yeah but why [TS]

01:05:57   right o hara is being get the nagging [TS]

01:06:01   girlfriend why do the alice eve is a [TS]

01:06:03   wonderful actress by the way have you [TS]

01:06:05   ever heard her speak professionally like [TS]

01:06:07   she is on her game like this is a woman [TS]

01:06:10   that can be more than just a Victoria's [TS]

01:06:13   Secret model in the movie he now in you [TS]

01:06:16   see on the trailer she's screaming in [TS]

01:06:17   terror [TS]

01:06:18   I mean like it's 1950 you know it's [TS]

01:06:20   that's right you gotta mix but you gotta [TS]

01:06:25   mix the random bra scene with the [TS]

01:06:27   screaming I do wonder how much of this [TS]

01:06:29   is a reflection of the movie industry as [TS]

01:06:31   a whole versus the TV industry because [TS]

01:06:33   there's a fairly small but growing body [TS]

01:06:38   of work that shows that television is [TS]

01:06:40   the [TS]

01:06:40   been primarily a female medium moon [TS]

01:06:42   terms of viewership by and so there's a [TS]

01:06:46   lot of there's a lot of internal [TS]

01:06:50   business pressure to make the type of [TS]

01:06:51   things that women are going to want to [TS]

01:06:53   watch for women with their families [TS]

01:06:54   watch and there is also a growing body [TS]

01:06:58   of articles in show biz journals and [TS]

01:06:59   talking about here [TS]

01:07:01   what's curly wrong with the movie [TS]

01:07:02   industry is there making all these [TS]

01:07:04   movies with this mythical young male [TS]

01:07:06   audience in mind while completely [TS]

01:07:07   ignoring the economic drivers for a lot [TS]

01:07:10   of senate in which are you know younger [TS]

01:07:11   and older women absolutely look at the [TS]

01:07:14   video game industry its exact same thing [TS]

01:07:16   I look at the hunger yeah but you know [TS]

01:07:18   people are like surprised that the [TS]

01:07:19   hunger games did well I don't like have [TS]

01:07:22   is the ability to read a best-seller [TS]

01:07:24   charge my god come on [TS]

01:07:26   and by the way that book is great that [TS]

01:07:27   was wonderful I really you know i'm one [TS]

01:07:30   of the few people who loved how the [TS]

01:07:31   series ended [TS]

01:07:32   yeah I am too yeah cuz I thought that [TS]

01:07:35   was really realistic bed and you [TS]

01:07:36   couldn't have had all we can spoil ok [TS]

01:07:38   nevermind I I yeah i'm not one of those [TS]

01:07:41   people I i think their book is a [TS]

01:07:42   disaster but you know that's ok that's a [TS]

01:07:45   topic for another time but you know [TS]

01:07:48   Jennifer Lawrence the weekend reaction [TS]

01:07:50   that was like really be considered for [TS]

01:07:52   Lawrence's basically carry on their [TS]

01:07:53   franchise and to be tiny jazz person and [TS]

01:07:57   she's doing a great job with it and you [TS]

01:07:58   know i would argue that she cheated evan [TS]

01:08:00   peters are the two best things about the [TS]

01:08:02   ex the most recent expeditions she's got [TS]

01:08:04   a great energy on screen [TS]

01:08:06   why they are not casting her as an [TS]

01:08:08   actual well now she's locked into the [TS]

01:08:10   x-men franchise they can't but honestly [TS]

01:08:12   somebody with some vision somewhere [TS]

01:08:13   should've cast her as like a legit you [TS]

01:08:17   know Tyson flights type superhero I [TS]

01:08:18   would have loved to have seen her as a [TS]

01:08:21   character marvel as a Black Canary Jesus [TS]

01:08:24   can you imagine his blackberry she'd [TS]

01:08:25   been amazing [TS]

01:08:27   yeah yeah you know if it if you do the [TS]

01:08:30   Justice League right need a black canary [TS]

01:08:32   who seems like you can be one of the [TS]

01:08:33   guys and more intense that quality to it [TS]

01:08:35   and moreover sexual submitted can fight [TS]

01:08:38   so you can cannot return to something [TS]

01:08:41   you're saying which is you're talking [TS]

01:08:43   about people ignoring the actual [TS]

01:08:46   demographics having this fictional being [TS]

01:08:49   male demographic [TS]

01:08:50   in mind in video games there was a study [TS]

01:08:54   that was just released that showed that [TS]

01:08:56   women are forty-eight percent of the [TS]

01:09:00   video game market of the video game [TS]

01:09:02   consumer 48-percent forty-eight percent [TS]

01:09:05   because that one more time forty-eight [TS]

01:09:07   percent in in the meantime you have this [TS]

01:09:10   entire industry that is funded by [TS]

01:09:13   madness managed by men is developed by [TS]

01:09:15   men it's marketed men it's you know and [TS]

01:09:19   they're just missing so much of the [TS]

01:09:22   audience by clinging to these old [TS]

01:09:25   stereotypes like is the freaking 90 [TS]

01:09:27   still and it's the the the existence and [TS]

01:09:31   Jason you were describing growing up in [TS]

01:09:33   it's just not that way anymore in even [TS]

01:09:36   if you don't care about feminism or [TS]

01:09:38   women representation at all if you love [TS]

01:09:40   the almighty dollar you make decisions [TS]

01:09:43   that are going to include your market [TS]

01:09:46   you will not this women are half the [TS]

01:09:49   population of Earth and it's just it's [TS]

01:09:52   so stupid to make us like one character [TS]

01:09:55   in the movie film executives are not [TS]

01:09:57   well known in general for their good [TS]

01:09:59   judgment and this is you won yet you [TS]

01:10:02   know yet another example of that and I [TS]

01:10:04   you see it in the posters and you see it [TS]

01:10:06   in the trailers even movies that are [TS]

01:10:08   much better [TS]

01:10:09   oftentimes the posters the trailers will [TS]

01:10:12   be worse or the green light decisions [TS]

01:10:14   end up being really stupid because [TS]

01:10:15   they're the ones made by people who are [TS]

01:10:17   not going to we're going to say well [TS]

01:10:18   what you know women can open an action [TS]

01:10:20   movie when the hunger games is sitting [TS]

01:10:22   right there I can't have been the only [TS]

01:10:24   little girl who rewrote Star Wars [TS]

01:10:25   forehead so it was Princess Leia flies [TS]

01:10:27   the Millennium Falcon and rescues Luke [TS]

01:10:29   and Han again like that was the game i [TS]

01:10:31   played with my girlfriend's growing up [TS]

01:10:32   no you're not you know she could do it [TS]

01:10:35   oh yeah yeah well this is why I kind of [TS]

01:10:37   had an issue with but they turned into [TS]

01:10:39   by the end of the third movie where [TS]

01:10:40   she's you know where her a walk party [TS]

01:10:43   dress and and whimpering hold on solo [TS]

01:10:46   because when you first meet her she's [TS]

01:10:48   busy running a rebel army and a soft [TS]

01:10:50   richer [TS]

01:10:51   yeah and she really is yeah and then by [TS]

01:10:54   the third movie like she's an [TS]

01:10:55   achievement bikini or she's having [TS]

01:10:57   feelings all over people and I [TS]

01:10:59   remember as a preamble something with [TS]

01:11:01   what did you do to my princess if with [TS]

01:11:03   to the fair that George Lucas was making [TS]

01:11:06   all kinds of bad decisions by this point [TS]

01:11:08   so you know there are probably people [TS]

01:11:11   who worked up over Luke Skywalker too so [TS]

01:11:13   yeah I don't know and even sure they [TS]

01:11:15   exist you know like lips up come to talk [TS]

01:11:18   particles everywhere you gonna say [TS]

01:11:20   something yeah just I was just getting [TS]

01:11:22   back to the point that you made earlier [TS]

01:11:24   Jason just about how the media wanting [TS]

01:11:28   representation for women we don't [TS]

01:11:30   necessarily need to like throw women at [TS]

01:11:32   everything and it's it's more about the [TS]

01:11:34   good stories basically what it comes [TS]

01:11:36   down to and something that popped into [TS]

01:11:38   my head when thinking about that was a [TS]

01:11:41   show that at first it didn't even occur [TS]

01:11:44   to me because I don't think of it as [TS]

01:11:46   being a you know for girls show for [TS]

01:11:49   female show but it's orphan black which [TS]

01:11:51   is so girly [TS]

01:11:53   if you think about the number of [TS]

01:11:54   characters and yes they're all played by [TS]

01:11:56   the segment but I mean that that show is [TS]

01:11:59   just you know it's rife with with Lady [TS]

01:12:02   characters that are up all different [TS]

01:12:03   sorts and I its it doesn't really stand [TS]

01:12:06   out in my head as being something that [TS]

01:12:08   was made for women it's just not for [TS]

01:12:10   people who like really good stuff and I [TS]

01:12:13   think that that's that's the ideal is [TS]

01:12:15   something that's just good for everybody [TS]

01:12:17   and i love it so much I couldn't agree [TS]

01:12:19   more [TS]

01:12:19   yeah that's that i love the fact that i [TS]

01:12:21   never really even thought of that show [TS]

01:12:23   in any context other than being a good [TS]

01:12:25   show and yes it is it has a female lead [TS]

01:12:28   or if you would like to say it's got [TS]

01:12:29   like five female lead role played by the [TS]

01:12:31   same actress and it is just a great show [TS]

01:12:34   and and and I think that's why Manuel [TS]

01:12:37   where we all want to end up is is not [TS]

01:12:41   have to think about this because this is [TS]

01:12:42   this is coming from a place of absence [TS]

01:12:46   where you look for a reflection of of [TS]

01:12:49   the world which is populated by men and [TS]

01:12:53   women and then you don't see it and that [TS]

01:12:55   leads to all sorts of distorted world [TS]

01:12:58   views of people who think that the world [TS]

01:13:00   mirror is what they see and in the media [TS]

01:13:03   and that leads to you know even more [TS]

01:13:06   issues and i'm not saying that like the [TS]

01:13:07   movies you watch are responsible for bad [TS]

01:13:09   things that happened to the video games [TS]

01:13:10   you play but it is one [TS]

01:13:12   other you know distortion in reality and [TS]

01:13:16   there are lots of people who think you [TS]

01:13:18   know I think crazy things about reality [TS]

01:13:20   because they think you know the song on [TS]

01:13:22   TV so it does it's additive and all you [TS]

01:13:24   know I i would like to see you know it's [TS]

01:13:27   great when it gets the point where you [TS]

01:13:28   don't even think about it and it's just [TS]

01:13:29   like of course and it's not so much that [TS]

01:13:31   they saw it on TV or they saw it in a [TS]

01:13:33   movie like you said it's because they [TS]

01:13:35   keep seeing it on TV and a cape see in [TS]

01:13:37   the movies if there were some like that [TS]

01:13:39   and some with more women than men and [TS]

01:13:41   some with an even amount like it would [TS]

01:13:42   if it all even out great [TS]

01:13:44   that would be fantastic i think i think [TS]

01:13:46   that's why you know you're talking about [TS]

01:13:47   the bechdel test being like it's an [TS]

01:13:49   interesting tool just to show us how how [TS]

01:13:51   low the bar is on a big scale I i think [TS]

01:13:54   all these all these things add up to [TS]

01:13:57   real problems i think that if you add up [TS]

01:13:59   all the all the movies all the [TS]

01:14:02   television shows all the comics like [TS]

01:14:05   your entire culture even the toys were [TS]

01:14:06   talking about earlier i think the [TS]

01:14:08   message over and over again is women be [TS]

01:14:10   pretty women be a lot of object you know [TS]

01:14:13   like you can fit into this very narrow [TS]

01:14:15   role and I guarantee you it has [TS]

01:14:18   consequences for the way that women are [TS]

01:14:20   socialized and the things we choose to [TS]

01:14:22   do with our lives [TS]

01:14:23   um yeah i would i'm going to take a [TS]

01:14:26   guess it must know my other people on [TS]

01:14:29   the comcast with me that you guys had a [TS]

01:14:30   point we had to kind of go like i am [TS]

01:14:33   more than somebody that's just valued [TS]

01:14:35   for my looks and I need to know I kind [TS]

01:14:38   of have to go beyond this culture it [TS]

01:14:40   doesn't mean don't take care of yourself [TS]

01:14:41   don't eat right don't take care and how [TS]

01:14:44   you present yourself but valuing [TS]

01:14:46   yourself beyond and that's a message [TS]

01:14:48   that every professional woman I now is [TS]

01:14:51   kind of had to move beyond because it's [TS]

01:14:53   so stark in our culture can you talk [TS]

01:14:55   about the trip that an attractive woman [TS]

01:14:58   is somehow a reward for a man that [TS]

01:15:00   something good will happen right because [TS]

01:15:03   that was actually another huge [TS]

01:15:04   eye-opener moment in geek culture where [TS]

01:15:06   the first time I had to friendzone [TS]

01:15:08   somebody his attitude was but I've been [TS]

01:15:10   nothing but a good friend this is my [TS]

01:15:11   reward for and I was just shocked that I [TS]

01:15:14   was supposed to be somebody's report as [TS]

01:15:15   opposed to a person with agency but once [TS]

01:15:19   that was pointed out I started seeing it [TS]

01:15:21   in the books i was reading in the comics [TS]

01:15:22   i was reading in the movies i was [TS]

01:15:24   watching the TV shows i was seeing our [TS]

01:15:26   true that you [TS]

01:15:26   pretty champion wrote a piece called [TS]

01:15:28   your princess is in another castle which [TS]

01:15:30   is about this very point right which is [TS]

01:15:32   the idea that in all sorts of fiction in [TS]

01:15:34   video games the I karateka the game i [TS]

01:15:38   played as a kid that I love the girl is [TS]

01:15:41   the reward for the boy at the end [TS]

01:15:44   because they succeed there they are a [TS]

01:15:46   trophy they are a reward and that you [TS]

01:15:50   know obviously some current events and [TS]

01:15:52   terrible things that have happened in [TS]

01:15:53   society play you know point this out [TS]

01:15:56   that that it's one of these things you [TS]

01:15:59   don't think of until you really pay [TS]

01:16:00   attention and then you realize how [TS]

01:16:02   horribly corrosive it actually is [TS]

01:16:03   mmm yes those are the most dangerous [TS]

01:16:05   ones the ones are so subtle like that [TS]

01:16:08   you just you don't even think about it [TS]

01:16:09   that way until somebody slaps you across [TS]

01:16:11   the face with it and you're like oh my [TS]

01:16:12   god i've been i've been playing into [TS]

01:16:14   this myself even as a woman my entire [TS]

01:16:17   life reading these books and thinking oh [TS]

01:16:18   isn't that sweet they get together at [TS]

01:16:20   the end and now i take a little step [TS]

01:16:22   sideways look at it with my head tilted [TS]

01:16:24   and go oh dear Lord [TS]

01:16:25   although to be fair in karateka in [TS]

01:16:28   karateka if you run at the princess [TS]

01:16:30   instead of walk to the princes at the [TS]

01:16:32   end she punches you dead so there is [TS]

01:16:35   that [TS]

01:16:36   well it's just that shit to contrast [TS]

01:16:38   with the captain janeway think Captain [TS]

01:16:40   Janeway instead the career but nobody [TS]

01:16:41   loves her [TS]

01:16:42   yeah but you know it again you could [TS]

01:16:46   have a similar situation with an l [TS]

01:16:48   protagonist and you'll have you know [TS]

01:16:50   some I was wrong about you all along [TS]

01:16:52   smooch and boom you've got a personal [TS]

01:16:56   and professional validation he's a whole [TS]

01:16:57   person with a full set of human [TS]

01:16:59   experiences and it seems like there's [TS]

01:17:01   still some narratives and I don't think [TS]

01:17:03   it's just confined to Ecomedia but there [TS]

01:17:05   are still some narratives that have a [TS]

01:17:06   really difficult time with the radical [TS]

01:17:09   notion that women can be fulfilled by [TS]

01:17:11   more than one thing and that women can [TS]

01:17:12   be defined by something other than the [TS]

01:17:14   relationship to to another human being [TS]

01:17:16   right or you know even motherhood I mean [TS]

01:17:18   nothing but respect to me of female [TS]

01:17:21   parents out there but I made a decision [TS]

01:17:23   that my life is going to be about my [TS]

01:17:25   career and I see out there and culture [TS]

01:17:28   everywhere that decision and [TS]

01:17:31   disrespected and me because there is [TS]

01:17:33   this narrative over and over again like [TS]

01:17:36   for women in your older [TS]

01:17:38   your mother and that's the only role [TS]

01:17:40   that you can have like when was the last [TS]

01:17:42   time you saw any woman in a movie over [TS]

01:17:44   40 that was not a mom let me barely [TS]

01:17:48   happen or not the butt of a joke because [TS]

01:17:50   she's yeah mom write a date you can't [TS]

01:17:52   win though I mean this [TS]

01:17:54   no I don't remember actually walking [TS]

01:17:56   past a couple of coworkers at a edit [TS]

01:17:58   edit all hands meeting where two of them [TS]

01:18:01   were talking about clinical desert [TS]

01:18:03   desert glass ceilings from for working [TS]

01:18:05   mothers and I I and as I'm wobbling past [TS]

01:18:09   several months pregnant was kind of a [TS]

01:18:10   real shock to realize that I had just [TS]

01:18:12   been shunted from one category to [TS]

01:18:13   another in their brain because of my [TS]

01:18:15   private personal decision so you know [TS]

01:18:18   you can tell you're no larger point is [TS]

01:18:21   taken because there's this huge [TS]

01:18:22   depiction media if you're childless [TS]

01:18:25   women must be because there's something [TS]

01:18:26   wrong you can be empty inside and that [TS]

01:18:28   couldn't be further from the truth [TS]

01:18:29   you know people people choose the family [TS]

01:18:31   configuration they have for 70 different [TS]

01:18:33   reasons and under anyone's business here [TS]

01:18:36   could never work through the power were [TS]

01:18:40   / are our by quite a bit so I want to [TS]

01:18:42   any other things you would like to bring [TS]

01:18:44   up now would be a time but if you were [TS]

01:18:46   going to regret later not mentioning [TS]

01:18:47   them this would be a good time to [TS]

01:18:48   mention i want to mention terry [TS]

01:18:50   pratchett in the Tiffany aching books [TS]

01:18:52   because i think if you have an [TS]

01:18:53   adolescent girl in your life he should [TS]

01:18:54   hand her the those books i think i think [TS]

01:18:57   those I think those are set on the right [TS]

01:18:58   path as it were [TS]

01:19:00   oh yeah if we're doing last-minute Rex [TS]

01:19:01   then I will let's do i will recommend [TS]

01:19:03   that actually i don't know if i should [TS]

01:19:05   recommend it now because it's a little [TS]

01:19:07   bit dated but as a youngster the [TS]

01:19:08   dragonriders of Pern was really into oh [TS]

01:19:11   my gosh [TS]

01:19:14   once again American least have to do a [TS]

01:19:15   podcast after that yeah that's actually [TS]

01:19:17   i just i turn my head a little bit [TS]

01:19:18   farther a few minutes ago and I realized [TS]

01:19:20   that my other shelf of the two is all [TS]

01:19:23   and McCaffrey Andre Norton yeah so here [TS]

01:19:29   here yeah i'd recommend cherry temper [TS]

01:19:31   her books i would recommend people [TS]

01:19:36   rejoin arrest the female man i'd [TS]

01:19:38   recommend a wide recommend discworld in [TS]

01:19:40   general but terry pratchett is a great [TS]

01:19:42   job if they have the witches in them and [TS]

01:19:43   especially the Tiffany aching books [TS]

01:19:45   which are into the young adult audience [TS]

01:19:46   for sure [TS]

01:19:47   yeah actually I had tried reading some [TS]

01:19:49   terry pratchett and the comics number [TS]

01:19:51   the comedy stuff doesn't usually do it [TS]

01:19:52   for me but then somebody hand me one of [TS]

01:19:54   the witches books and I was like this is [TS]

01:19:55   where at that unfold like the first four [TS]

01:19:58   books in the Discworld series like the [TS]

01:19:59   old the the more recent books are much [TS]

01:20:01   much better it's really gratifying to [TS]

01:20:03   watch how he stretches and grows over [TS]

01:20:05   the archives career you know I didn't [TS]

01:20:08   even know I didn't even know she was a [TS]

01:20:11   terry pratchett's your daughter that [TS]

01:20:14   Rhianna Pratchett is the person writes a [TS]

01:20:17   lot of video game media and goddamn [TS]

01:20:20   unnoticed in the time since that people [TS]

01:20:22   only ever mention her father and then [TS]

01:20:24   call you know her you know his daughter [TS]

01:20:27   which is beyond disrespectful but I give [TS]

01:20:30   me she has the tomb raider sequel coming [TS]

01:20:32   out i think she does fantastic work also [TS]

01:20:34   i hope this doesn't feel like a plug but [TS]

01:20:36   you know my game revolution 16 is about [TS]

01:20:38   to come out and it's it's if you've ever [TS]

01:20:42   played with Barbies and said this would [TS]

01:20:44   be great if you mixed with the plot of [TS]

01:20:45   24 in space like something i used to [TS]

01:20:49   with Buck Rogers yes [TS]

01:20:52   barbie and Buck Rogers have species [TS]

01:20:53   interest it really is like for myself [TS]

01:20:57   from a very young age [TS]

01:20:58   I've looked at video games have said [TS]

01:21:00   where are the self actualized women [TS]

01:21:03   where the women to do things where the [TS]

01:21:04   women the kick-out and they're not there [TS]

01:21:08   to be eye candy and you know it's a it's [TS]

01:21:11   a narrative in all of an all-female team [TS]

01:21:13   it is mass effect need to have a rain [TS]

01:21:16   it's a story every bit of is acted out [TS]

01:21:18   in 3d with voice acting and if you like [TS]

01:21:22   self-actualized women this is going to [TS]

01:21:23   be the game that's more self actually [TS]

01:21:26   this is anything you've ever seen [TS]

01:21:27   so check it out when it comes out [TS]

01:21:29   awesome [TS]

01:21:30   yeah that's a plug but it's a little [TS]

01:21:32   loud alright thank you thank you Jason [TS]

01:21:35   for shit that all right well I think [TS]

01:21:38   that's going to wrap it up for now but I [TS]

01:21:39   want to thank my guests for this [TS]

01:21:40   excellent stimulating and interesting [TS]

01:21:42   discussion and lease only swear it a [TS]

01:21:44   little bit but Lisa's wiser thank you so [TS]

01:21:49   much for being here [TS]

01:21:50   I'll have you know I'm trying for a very [TS]

01:21:52   polite side of resisting the urge to [TS]

01:21:55   pepper with four-letter words that we [TS]

01:21:57   got the spoiler Hornet does double date [TS]

01:21:59   as the as the action was ever worn but [TS]

01:22:04   Erica and sign thank you so much for [TS]

01:22:07   being here [TS]

01:22:08   you're welcome and thrilled to be here [TS]

01:22:10   as as the one who has to sonic out the [TS]

01:22:12   swears on ferry I feel for ya you notice [TS]

01:22:15   and forgotten would thank you so much [TS]

01:22:18   for coming and I appreciate happy to [TS]

01:22:19   crash here crash your party and we [TS]

01:22:21   should referential you were on you were [TS]

01:22:23   on a cool episode of debug episode 34 [TS]

01:22:26   you can find that a time or comments [TS]

01:22:29   about sexism and technology in the tech [TS]

01:22:33   industry and it was a really great [TS]

01:22:35   conversation in our own serenity [TS]

01:22:37   Caldwell's on episode to so many other [TS]

01:22:40   very interesting [TS]

01:22:41   this was great thanks so much for coming [TS]

01:22:43   on and thanks everybody out there for [TS]

01:22:45   listening to the uncomfortable until we [TS]

01:22:48   meet again I remain Jason snow tonight [TS]

01:22:55   everybody before we go one note about [TS]

01:22:58   this episode we recorded a live on jun 9 [TS]

01:23:00   2014 right in the middle of III the big [TS]

01:23:04   game show it turns out that dlc the [TS]

01:23:07   podcast on the five by five network was [TS]

01:23:09   going to be doing a game special the [TS]

01:23:12   whole week they had set up with some [TS]

01:23:14   five-by-five staff there was a mixup [TS]

01:23:16   five-by-five has a live broadcast [TS]

01:23:17   calendar that are times and dates are [TS]

01:23:21   always on and they didn't check the [TS]

01:23:24   calendar and they didn't communicate [TS]

01:23:25   with us and so we were double-booked and [TS]

01:23:28   we started streaming and I voluntarily [TS]

01:23:30   dropped off because their stuff was [TS]

01:23:33   newsworthy stuff from e3 and our stuff [TS]

01:23:36   was something we were talking about a [TS]

01:23:38   timeless topic and we're banking it for [TS]

01:23:39   a few days anyway so our archery went [TS]

01:23:42   away people who like to listen live [TS]

01:23:44   didn't get a chance to and I'm sorry [TS]

01:23:46   that that happened there was definitely [TS]

01:23:48   miscommunication [TS]

01:23:49   dan and the people five-by-five [TS]

01:23:50   apologize for the miscommunication [TS]

01:23:53   however the point still stands that [TS]

01:23:55   five-by-five was planning on doing a [TS]

01:23:57   week-long evening broadcast from e3 [TS]

01:24:00   which meant that even if they had [TS]

01:24:02   communicated we were not going to be [TS]

01:24:03   able to broadcast live because that was [TS]

01:24:06   not it would be the channel was taking [TS]

01:24:08   it over with the dlc and that was the [TS]

01:24:10   decision of five-by-five made that's [TS]

01:24:12   fine but what it told me is that if [TS]

01:24:16   we're going to keep streaming live we [TS]

01:24:18   need to do it ourselves [TS]

01:24:19   so that's what we're gonna do from now [TS]

01:24:20   on you can go to the incomparable calm / [TS]

01:24:23   life if you'd like to listen to us [TS]

01:24:25   recording live will put a stream there [TS]

01:24:27   when we're live they'll be a calendar of [TS]

01:24:29   when we're planning on being live on [TS]

01:24:31   that page at the incomparable dot-com [TS]

01:24:33   /live thanks to Dan and five by five for [TS]

01:24:38   putting together the live-streaming [TS]

01:24:39   infrastructure over the last few years [TS]

01:24:41   really appreciated it we're gonna have a [TS]

01:24:42   chat room on the same server that the [TS]

01:24:45   five by five chat rooms on but it's [TS]

01:24:46   going to be at the new room named the [TS]

01:24:50   incomparable and we even got a show bot [TS]

01:24:53   where you'll be able to suggest titles [TS]

01:24:55   so if you like to listen to the show [TS]

01:24:57   live or you'd have never done it but we [TS]

01:25:00   want to do it sometime and give us a [TS]

01:25:01   live feedback in the chat room you can [TS]

01:25:03   do it [TS]

01:25:03   we're just going to do it ourselves so [TS]

01:25:05   the incomparable calm / live from [TS]

01:25:08   more details and thanks everybody out [TS]

01:25:10   there i'm sorry we couldn't scream this [TS]

01:25:11   one life for you and i hope you enjoyed [TS]

01:25:13   it [TS]