The Incomparable

197: Fail Fast


00:00:00   the incomparable number 197 jun 2014 [TS]

00:00:15   welcome back to the incomparable podcast [TS]

00:00:17   on your host Jason Snelling we're here [TS]

00:00:19   to talk about a book but this is a [TS]

00:00:21   little bit different from our normal [TS]

00:00:22   book club this is a work of nonfiction [TS]

00:00:23   but it's by somebody who is a major [TS]

00:00:26   player in a major creative endeavor and [TS]

00:00:29   one that we podcast about before then we [TS]

00:00:31   love a lot which is pixar we're going to [TS]

00:00:33   talk about creativity pink book by EDD [TS]

00:00:35   cat mall with Amy Wallace at catalent [TS]

00:00:37   the president of pixar for many years [TS]

00:00:40   and now runs the pics both pixar and [TS]

00:00:44   disney animation with john lasseter and [TS]

00:00:47   he wrote this book that is partially a [TS]

00:00:50   memoir of his time at Pixar and [TS]

00:00:52   partially a management book about how he [TS]

00:00:56   has managed the creative culture at [TS]

00:00:59   Pixar which i think is an interesting [TS]

00:01:01   conversation to have to and lots of [TS]

00:01:03   things to talk about i have a panel full [TS]

00:01:04   of people who are raring to go to talk [TS]

00:01:07   about this subject I field i love it as [TS]

00:01:09   a host when that happens because i feel [TS]

00:01:10   like i can just sort of lean back and [TS]

00:01:12   I'll go get a glass of water at one [TS]

00:01:13   point you won't even know I'm gone [TS]

00:01:14   because anyway my panel is our plan [TS]

00:01:18   fleischmann welcome back plan [TS]

00:01:20   nice to see you finally it's it's such a [TS]

00:01:22   pleasure to have broken the surface of [TS]

00:01:24   the water tension and come through like [TS]

00:01:27   Nemo I i found myself [TS]

00:01:29   ok that's a reference Lisa Schmeisser [TS]

00:01:33   also here hello [TS]

00:01:34   thank you it's nice to be here John [TS]

00:01:37   siracusa is here so excited to be on a [TS]

00:01:40   book club episode even if it is [TS]

00:01:42   nonfiction and even if it's not 800-page [TS]

00:01:44   book about wizards by my by my reckoning [TS]

00:01:48   it has been approximately 16 months [TS]

00:01:53   since you were on a book club episode so [TS]

00:01:55   welcome and David lower who is on every [TS]

00:01:59   episode that Dan Morgan isn't on and [TS]

00:02:02   maybe that he is also here [TS]

00:02:04   hello I all I will say is I'm glad this [TS]

00:02:08   isn't about the hugo nominees [TS]

00:02:09   yeah we noticed that was not going to [TS]

00:02:12   happen [TS]

00:02:12   well now David this record continuously [TS]

00:02:15   24 hours a day I believe radio Radio [TS]

00:02:18   Free David it's where you know and [TS]

00:02:21   there's so many different facets of this [TS]

00:02:23   i'm not sure where you want to get [TS]

00:02:24   started i really enjoyed it on one level [TS]

00:02:26   I have to say just as being story of [TS]

00:02:28   pixar and this interesting story of bed [TS]

00:02:29   cat mall who started out in computer [TS]

00:02:32   science and but always had creative [TS]

00:02:36   yearnings as well and ended up sort of [TS]

00:02:39   by mistake or just through happenstance [TS]

00:02:42   at a at Lucasfilm when they were [TS]

00:02:47   starting their computer graphics [TS]

00:02:48   division and then the story of them [TS]

00:02:50   being bought by steve jobs and the [TS]

00:02:52   desire to make a make a motion picture [TS]

00:02:57   in computer animation and then the [TS]

00:02:59   trucks or tribulations of the problems [TS]

00:03:01   they had with various various films the [TS]

00:03:05   disney buyout and the death of Steve [TS]

00:03:07   Jobs are all covered in here so he's got [TS]

00:03:10   that aspect of the story as well as the [TS]

00:03:12   the sort of management learnings over [TS]

00:03:14   the course of all this time and you know [TS]

00:03:16   which I found very interesting but I was [TS]

00:03:18   fascinated by the story of pixar III the [TS]

00:03:20   thing that really hit me was that at a [TS]

00:03:22   time when they could have very easily [TS]

00:03:23   have just said we're going to make [TS]

00:03:25   hardware or we're going to make software [TS]

00:03:27   or you know we're going to do computer [TS]

00:03:30   graphics for other people's movies they [TS]

00:03:32   had this one idea which i think came [TS]

00:03:34   from john lasseter but at cad model was [TS]

00:03:37   right there with him which is we're [TS]

00:03:38   going to make a motion picture and and [TS]

00:03:41   that the world would be very different [TS]

00:03:43   if they hadn't had that because you get [TS]

00:03:45   the sense from the book that would have [TS]

00:03:46   been very easy it was not a fait [TS]

00:03:48   accompli that they were going to be a [TS]

00:03:49   movie studio that they became a movie [TS]

00:03:51   studio not accidentally but it was not [TS]

00:03:53   looking at pics are in the in the [TS]

00:03:56   eighties and early nineties you wouldn't [TS]

00:03:59   have made that guess I think i would say [TS]

00:04:01   they had needed somebody who is going to [TS]

00:04:02   pour hundreds of millions of dollars [TS]

00:04:04   down a whole hoping eventually that was [TS]

00:04:07   going to become a foundation that's what [TS]

00:04:09   Steve Jobs did I mean after you know [TS]

00:04:11   Lucas's years with it and they thought [TS]

00:04:14   they were a hardware business that was [TS]

00:04:15   going to maybe do something on the side [TS]

00:04:17   if they hadn't poured hundreds of [TS]

00:04:19   millions of dollars in research for [TS]

00:04:21   you know this really not exactly but [TS]

00:04:23   nine but certainly supportive ongoing [TS]

00:04:25   you know leader with big pockets [TS]

00:04:28   it wouldn't have happened and you know [TS]

00:04:30   i'll try this isn't letting but I'm i [TS]

00:04:32   knew a bunch of computer graphics people [TS]

00:04:33   in the in the eighties and nineties [TS]

00:04:35   people were involved in siggraph and one [TS]

00:04:37   was the chair a six and you know I old [TS]

00:04:40   housemate was a was a computer graphics [TS]

00:04:43   guy so I met a lot of these kind of [TS]

00:04:45   people like Ed and it is there's a [TS]

00:04:47   personality types of readiness and I'm [TS]

00:04:49   like oh I i remember the kind of person [TS]

00:04:52   that gets into this field the patients [TS]

00:04:53   you need because you leave you go insane [TS]

00:04:55   and you leave the glaring part is we had [TS]

00:04:58   when i worked at the kodak center for [TS]

00:04:59   creative imaging we had a pixar box they [TS]

00:05:01   bought one the cube and it SAT there and [TS]

00:05:04   none of us knew how to do anything with [TS]

00:05:05   it and occasionally I would try to plug [TS]

00:05:06   in component video monitors to and get [TS]

00:05:08   to do anything at all we had no idea [TS]

00:05:10   what to do with it [TS]

00:05:10   I had type of street and i still i think [TS]

00:05:14   i may even have the disks somewhere type [TS]

00:05:16   of street for the mac which was 3d [TS]

00:05:18   rendered type app for the mac from like [TS]

00:05:23   1993 or something like that when they [TS]

00:05:25   were a software company which based on [TS]

00:05:27   the book they realized that they were [TS]

00:05:29   gonna really be a hardware company said [TS]

00:05:31   they had try something else [TS]

00:05:33   the things that this company did when [TS]

00:05:35   it's time in the wilderness in [TS]

00:05:37   retrospect it's it's kind of obvious [TS]

00:05:39   what the problem was because like in the [TS]

00:05:41   beginning they were Lucas thing and [TS]

00:05:43   Lucas had something that he wanted them [TS]

00:05:44   to do just revolutionized you know film [TS]

00:05:46   editing and filmmaking which they did to [TS]

00:05:49   the best of their ability and it turns [TS]

00:05:50   out that they were ahead of their time [TS]

00:05:52   and whatever and Lucas Lucas stitch them [TS]

00:05:54   and then they went to steve jobs and [TS]

00:05:56   what Steve Jobs know how to do he knows [TS]

00:05:57   how to make computers and software in [TS]

00:06:00   various combinations and they try to do [TS]

00:06:02   that for a while I don't the only time [TS]

00:06:03   that they found success is when I said [TS]

00:06:05   alright what do you guys want to do and [TS]

00:06:08   it turned out of the people who remained [TS]

00:06:10   or the people who were there and the [TS]

00:06:11   people who are important [TS]

00:06:12   they said actually we you know Kat most [TS]

00:06:16   wanted to make always wanted to make [TS]

00:06:18   films right and when you let them do [TS]

00:06:20   that i mean i'm not it's not saying that [TS]

00:06:22   was guaranteed success but previously [TS]

00:06:24   they had all been in the mindset of like [TS]

00:06:26   underneath some other master do it Lucas [TS]

00:06:28   once do with Steve Jobs knows how to do [TS]

00:06:30   and get acquired by like GM nerve [TS]

00:06:33   someone who makes dishwashers or [TS]

00:06:34   whatever then it's like what you guys [TS]

00:06:35   want to do and that's how they started [TS]

00:06:37   off on their actual Road so in hindsight [TS]

00:06:39   it's so easy to see all those periods [TS]

00:06:41   and of course they weren't going to [TS]

00:06:42   succeed because you know the people the [TS]

00:06:44   people who were there and the people in [TS]

00:06:46   charge didn't have the heart of those [TS]

00:06:47   things what i want what i wonder is if [TS]

00:06:49   anybody's going to look at this and say [TS]

00:06:50   wow it took them nearly 20 years to get [TS]

00:06:53   to the point where they became a movie [TS]

00:06:55   studio [TS]

00:06:56   sometimes it's worth throwing money at [TS]

00:06:57   something because you build a foundation [TS]

00:06:59   you build a type working team you build [TS]

00:07:01   a foundation of knowledge you build a [TS]

00:07:03   management style that works and you've [TS]

00:07:05   got raw material all you need is is a [TS]

00:07:07   crystallizing sense of purpose because [TS]

00:07:09   the question I have is if a company like [TS]

00:07:11   Pixar could happen today with the sort [TS]

00:07:14   of insane pressure the overheated [TS]

00:07:17   pressure that happened that that seems [TS]

00:07:19   to be a matter of course for teka teka [TS]

00:07:20   Jason industries where you're supposed [TS]

00:07:22   to hit the ground running within 18 to [TS]

00:07:25   24 months and then and then grow from [TS]

00:07:27   there and then and quickly pixar [TS]

00:07:30   happened today [TS]

00:07:31   well coming out of Lucas like it did it [TS]

00:07:36   was almost like you're talking about a [TS]

00:07:38   research division of a company and not a [TS]

00:07:40   start-up right the this was we collected [TS]

00:07:42   a bunch of brilliant people who know [TS]

00:07:44   about computer graphics into George [TS]

00:07:46   Lucas's credit when Star Wars movies are [TS]

00:07:48   being made with models he's thinking [TS]

00:07:50   ahead and saying you know computer [TS]

00:07:52   graphics is going to be a thing we gotta [TS]

00:07:53   we gotta get something you know in there [TS]

00:07:55   and we're gonna try this and steve jobs [TS]

00:07:57   you know sort of had the same thing [TS]

00:07:58   which is I think there's something here [TS]

00:08:00   and these people are really smart but [TS]

00:08:01   i'm not quite sure what it is yet and it [TS]

00:08:03   was much more like funding in R&D lab [TS]

00:08:06   where they're like well we're going to [TS]

00:08:08   try some hardware we're gonna make some [TS]

00:08:09   software if you take those products out [TS]

00:08:12   and say it guys just stop making [TS]

00:08:13   products just think about stuff but this [TS]

00:08:15   is the products we sort of part of their [TS]

00:08:16   exploration and they end up in a place [TS]

00:08:18   where where something catches but you're [TS]

00:08:21   right Lisa you know this is not the kind [TS]

00:08:23   of thing that you just say we're gonna [TS]

00:08:25   do a start-up and make a thing unless [TS]

00:08:26   you're unless you're like Elon Musk and [TS]

00:08:28   you've got a billion dollars kicking [TS]

00:08:29   around you really you know this is more [TS]

00:08:31   like rd where you got somebody to fund [TS]

00:08:34   bankroll something and just say but get [TS]

00:08:36   some smart people let them kick around [TS]

00:08:38   for a few years and make a bunch of [TS]

00:08:40   mistakes and they will eventually get [TS]

00:08:41   somewhere really interesting because you [TS]

00:08:44   know without at any point this could [TS]

00:08:46   all apart and that's where they didn't [TS]

00:08:48   wake up to that for a while is that they [TS]

00:08:50   weren't to read when they became a [TS]

00:08:51   self-standing company they didn't quite [TS]

00:08:53   realize that they weren't an R&D company [TS]

00:08:55   for a long time they were sort of trying [TS]

00:08:57   to figure out where the revenue was I [TS]

00:08:58   didn't really get it they tried [TS]

00:09:00   different things they rejected a bunch [TS]

00:09:01   of stuff but they still sort of acted [TS]

00:09:03   like they were part of some other firm [TS]

00:09:05   like we will be well we'll provide the [TS]

00:09:07   rendering stuff for these other [TS]

00:09:09   companies even though they weren't [TS]

00:09:10   really companies who wanted it and what [TS]

00:09:12   they were creating didn't really work [TS]

00:09:13   for that purpose what was funny reading [TS]

00:09:15   the first part of the book for me was [TS]

00:09:17   the other day I found this out of [TS]

00:09:21   nowhere a Japanese proverb on the inside [TS]

00:09:23   of an honest tea bottle cap that said [TS]

00:09:26   vision without action is a daydream but [TS]

00:09:30   action without vision is a nightmare and [TS]

00:09:34   at the end the whole time reading the [TS]

00:09:36   first part of the book and I'm thinking [TS]

00:09:37   he's going to say that oh my god that's [TS]

00:09:39   exactly what he's talking about [TS]

00:09:41   well there's that one of the book one of [TS]

00:09:42   the first quotes I pola I i highlighted [TS]

00:09:44   when I read this [TS]

00:09:46   we're capitals talking about some of the [TS]

00:09:47   really bad non advice he received from [TS]

00:09:49   his friends and contemporary he singles [TS]

00:09:52   at one focus [TS]

00:09:53   I'm going to quote here focus focus [TS]

00:09:54   focus this was a particular favorite [TS]

00:09:56   piece of not advise when people hear it [TS]

00:09:58   they not their heads in agreement as it [TS]

00:10:00   a great truth has been presented not [TS]

00:10:02   realizing that they've been diverted [TS]

00:10:03   from addressing the far harder problem [TS]

00:10:05   deciding what it is they should be [TS]

00:10:06   focusing on there's nothing in this [TS]

00:10:08   advice that gives you any idea how to [TS]

00:10:10   figure out where the focus should be or [TS]

00:10:11   how to apply your energy to it and I [TS]

00:10:14   thought that was just a really elegant [TS]

00:10:15   distillation of it was it i thought was [TS]

00:10:18   a very elegant elegant critique of what [TS]

00:10:20   then is talking about which is a you [TS]

00:10:22   know action without purpose or or action [TS]

00:10:24   without inspiration for or intent behind [TS]

00:10:27   it [TS]

00:10:28   I'm not damn oh I'm sorry dash I'm so [TS]

00:10:32   sorry but if I'm so are so dumb what was [TS]

00:10:37   it was really neat reading about the [TS]

00:10:40   drawing lessons and how we can't see [TS]

00:10:45   that we can't draw the chair because we [TS]

00:10:46   see the chair but we're more accurate [TS]

00:10:48   when we draw the negative space in and [TS]

00:10:50   around the chair and and that to me is [TS]

00:10:53   everything about focus because that that [TS]

00:10:57   makes you look at the things you don't [TS]

00:10:58   already know [TS]

00:10:59   which is much more much more worthwhile [TS]

00:11:04   when you're trying to be creative and [TS]

00:11:05   you don't know where an idea is going to [TS]

00:11:07   come from and I mean that happens to me [TS]

00:11:08   all the time where I'll start something [TS]

00:11:11   and throw out the first two or three [TS]

00:11:13   story ideas because the third one was [TS]

00:11:15   really really good and I had no idea [TS]

00:11:17   this character is gonna do that so sorry [TS]

00:11:20   I mean maybe the whole book just well [TS]

00:11:22   well that seems to be the one he talks [TS]

00:11:25   about the mental models and the [TS]

00:11:26   metaphors that people use yeah katal had [TS]

00:11:29   the real issue of people referring [TS]

00:11:31   excavation archaeology because he said [TS]

00:11:33   look it's not like the movie was there [TS]

00:11:34   and we grew up toward it [TS]

00:11:37   you know that I don't think he's a guy [TS]

00:11:39   who's really into the allegory of the [TS]

00:11:40   cave like he doesn't strike me as the [TS]

00:11:41   Platonic I felt bake cause he's like [TS]

00:11:44   it's not like this ideal movies out [TS]

00:11:45   there and we grew up toward it's an [TS]

00:11:47   iterative process we're not uncover [TS]

00:11:49   anything we're not really archaeologists [TS]

00:11:50   of of ideas and that's something he [TS]

00:11:53   returns to over and over again as is you [TS]

00:11:55   really have no idea what's the problem [TS]

00:11:59   that you're facing are you have no idea [TS]

00:12:00   what you don't know you have to train [TS]

00:12:02   yourself to look at every situation [TS]

00:12:03   without bringing context to you have to [TS]

00:12:07   you have to find new ways to approach it [TS]

00:12:09   and I thought that was just a really [TS]

00:12:09   really smart insight to keep hammering [TS]

00:12:11   on over and over again was the idea that [TS]

00:12:13   if you want to be creative start by [TS]

00:12:16   stripping away the context in and just [TS]

00:12:18   and just try to see what you're not [TS]

00:12:22   trying to try to see things from a [TS]

00:12:24   different perspective as a collection of [TS]

00:12:25   shapes around this shoot that's upside [TS]

00:12:27   down [TS]

00:12:27   I thought underlying a lot of this book [TS]

00:12:29   to is something that's understated and [TS]

00:12:31   now i have to admit I've never read [TS]

00:12:32   Clayton Christensen's book innovators [TS]

00:12:34   dilemma i feel like i have because i've [TS]

00:12:36   read so many articles and excerpts that [TS]

00:12:38   involve it but but you know the so it's [TS]

00:12:41   ridiculous you actually need to sit down [TS]

00:12:43   and read the thing but i have read [TS]

00:12:44   interviews with them and lengthy things [TS]

00:12:45   and watched and talk about it and [TS]

00:12:47   whatever so I feel like I'm converse in [TS]

00:12:49   the theory of and the innovators dilemma [TS]

00:12:50   is the idea [TS]

00:12:52   yeah one part of it is that these [TS]

00:12:53   entrenched industries like Disney in [TS]

00:12:55   this case this day what it became a [TS]

00:12:58   figure out one thing that works they own [TS]

00:12:59   a whole space and you know gets applied [TS]

00:13:02   to mean [TS]

00:13:03   in the computers and steel manufacturer [TS]

00:13:05   whatever they plucky upstart scum who do [TS]

00:13:08   what seems to be cruelly crappy work [TS]

00:13:10   originally but what they're so cheap and [TS]

00:13:12   they're so good at the worst thing for [TS]

00:13:14   the lowest profit Louis margin thing [TS]

00:13:16   that an industry or company does that [TS]

00:13:19   they eat that part up and they're like [TS]

00:13:20   oh they can have that terrible part we [TS]

00:13:21   don't like that anyway don't make much [TS]

00:13:22   money off it but they grow from that [TS]

00:13:24   base and they absorb and take over the [TS]

00:13:26   whole industry or or displays the [TS]

00:13:28   company and I feel like you know the [TS]

00:13:30   pixar story actually has a lot of that [TS]

00:13:33   in it not just from what pixar did to [TS]

00:13:35   animation which is exactly that is they [TS]

00:13:37   started doing something that everyone [TS]

00:13:38   thought was laughable and then became [TS]

00:13:40   dominant because they develop the [TS]

00:13:42   technology to make it work but the other [TS]

00:13:44   part is that he constantly re-evaluates [TS]

00:13:47   a whether or not what they're doing [TS]

00:13:49   makes any sense so we he tries to fight [TS]

00:13:51   complacency because he worries [TS]

00:13:53   they're going to be that company at the [TS]

00:13:54   top that doesn't realize they're about [TS]

00:13:56   to be eaten from them from all their [TS]

00:13:58   competition from the bottom be destroyed [TS]

00:14:00   and coming back and forth going over [TS]

00:14:03   that again and again and again seems to [TS]

00:14:04   be one of the lessons of the book you [TS]

00:14:06   mentioned a little bit this dichotomy [TS]

00:14:07   almost between the technical and the [TS]

00:14:12   creative and that was something that [TS]

00:14:13   struck me about it is you've got this [TS]

00:14:14   incredibly talented group of computer [TS]

00:14:18   scientists here and yet I kind of feel [TS]

00:14:23   like the thing that they were most [TS]

00:14:24   innovative about was this having a [TS]

00:14:26   structure that gets good storytelling [TS]

00:14:28   not at the storytelling innovation of [TS]

00:14:32   having their brain trust and and being [TS]

00:14:34   really functional when end and [TS]

00:14:37   disciplined when it came to building [TS]

00:14:40   stories and going through scenes was the [TS]

00:14:43   is the thing that makes pixar the the [TS]

00:14:45   the studio that creates these amazing [TS]

00:14:48   stories that are classics not the [TS]

00:14:50   technology mean they couldn't have been [TS]

00:14:51   the first computer animated film without [TS]

00:14:54   the technology that they had this [TS]

00:14:56   amazing technology but if that story [TS]

00:14:59   hadn't been good and if the success of [TS]

00:15:00   stories hadn't been good [TS]

00:15:02   it would have been all for nothing and [TS]

00:15:04   and so that's a fascinating mixture that [TS]

00:15:06   this isn't just a story about them [TS]

00:15:07   building amazing technology and [TS]

00:15:09   believing in their technology it's also [TS]

00:15:10   a story about you know they're these [TS]

00:15:15   very technical people [TS]

00:15:16   finding creative people who are good [TS]

00:15:18   matches and putting them together and [TS]

00:15:20   having this process for storytelling [TS]

00:15:22   that was just as functional as the [TS]

00:15:25   obviously amazing technology that they [TS]

00:15:27   had I thought it was really fascinating [TS]

00:15:29   how up evolved over the course of the [TS]

00:15:31   movie where if you read about all the [TS]

00:15:33   different plots they had going at one [TS]

00:15:35   point and you know basically the only [TS]

00:15:40   thing that stayed the whole time was [TS]

00:15:42   Carl but I even forget that i'm sorry [TS]

00:15:47   it's it's it's there is a lot of the [TS]

00:15:49   book are absorbed and took notes on this [TS]

00:15:50   is not one of them but I on finding you [TS]

00:15:52   went through several iterations to where [TS]

00:15:54   the original was supposed to be parallel [TS]

00:15:56   story of nemo and his tank and his dad [TS]

00:15:58   in the wild and they figured out the [TS]

00:15:59   story structure was confusing scrapped [TS]

00:16:01   it and started over [TS]

00:16:02   um they talk about toy story 2 how they [TS]

00:16:05   had 2 and i thought was really helpful [TS]

00:16:07   for him to hammer over and over again [TS]

00:16:08   that look we were not afraid to make [TS]

00:16:11   mistakes it's an iterative process no [TS]

00:16:13   one is ever punished for failing it's [TS]

00:16:16   better to fail and learn from it and to [TS]

00:16:18   assess it and do something well then to [TS]

00:16:20   be afraid to try anything and then turn [TS]

00:16:23   to mediocrity especially cuz he [TS]

00:16:24   contrasts the the disney process at the [TS]

00:16:26   end and after disney bought Pixar and he [TS]

00:16:30   he got broken hinge on last year got [TS]

00:16:32   brought into to run the disney animation [TS]

00:16:33   studio and they were working on the [TS]

00:16:35   movie about the dog and it wasn't [TS]

00:16:38   working and people were afraid to speak [TS]

00:16:39   up and say anything because if you if [TS]

00:16:41   you had done that your corporate culture [TS]

00:16:42   it was sticking your neck out and it was [TS]

00:16:45   taking it was considered taking a risk [TS]

00:16:46   and it was better just to put your head [TS]

00:16:48   down keep working and Abby risk-averse [TS]

00:16:50   things like now you've really gotta [TS]

00:16:52   embrace risk and you gotta embrace [TS]

00:16:53   failure because if if you don't if you [TS]

00:16:56   don't try things you're never going to [TS]

00:16:58   learn from them and find the best way to [TS]

00:16:59   do anything and we do live in a pretty [TS]

00:17:02   risk-averse called I don't know about [TS]

00:17:04   you guys I've worked in some fairly [TS]

00:17:06   risk-averse places and it's it's always [TS]

00:17:08   interesting it's always interesting to [TS]

00:17:09   me to read and hear examples that that [TS]

00:17:11   can that prove exactly the opposite i [TS]

00:17:14   loved Andrew Stanton's understands line [TS]

00:17:19   which is fail fast you should fail and [TS]

00:17:22   just go and just go for it and do it and [TS]

00:17:24   find quickly whether you're going to [TS]

00:17:25   fail and I don't you know don't [TS]

00:17:26   soft-pedal it fail and fail fast [TS]

00:17:29   it took a while to get to that though [TS]

00:17:31   that's where the themes of the book is [TS]

00:17:32   they think they're like well we should [TS]

00:17:33   give a lot of time for this we did this [TS]

00:17:35   for this movie that worked out well and [TS]

00:17:37   then he says the thing I mean he's so [TS]

00:17:39   ridiculously honest in this without [TS]

00:17:41   being shaming nobody has shamed in this [TS]

00:17:44   book I mean he doesn't he's like we had [TS]

00:17:46   a fire that director we had to replace [TS]

00:17:47   that director and so-and-so and [TS]

00:17:48   so-and-so came on we had a well-known [TS]

00:17:50   regarded children's book author come in [TS]

00:17:52   and we couldn't work with that means [TS]

00:17:53   that over and over the people where [TS]

00:17:55   there's a problem he does not point the [TS]

00:17:57   finger and say we had selling something [TS]

00:17:58   like literally the name of that person [TS]

00:18:00   but the fact that he's so blunt about [TS]

00:18:03   that like every time I keep back up [TS]

00:18:05   being surprised because he doesn't even [TS]

00:18:07   fall into place and see in the book in [TS]

00:18:09   that he just seems to call it's like we [TS]

00:18:12   thought we had this figured out we [TS]

00:18:14   figured we run in these like that I [TS]

00:18:15   asked and like oh my god we need to have [TS]

00:18:17   an entire likely in the book spoilers [TS]

00:18:19   they do that whole company notes day [TS]

00:18:21   where they essentially i mean they spend [TS]

00:18:23   weeks preparing for it [TS]

00:18:25   they shot the company down for a day [TS]

00:18:26   which I'm sure cost millions of dollars [TS]

00:18:28   in terms of you know the projects they [TS]

00:18:30   have going and but they were formed the [TS]

00:18:32   company they took something that was [TS]

00:18:33   working and said it's not working well [TS]

00:18:36   enough and I'm sure this will come out [TS]

00:18:37   for many of our conversations here but i [TS]

00:18:40   thought like Ed Catmull is he's like [TS]

00:18:43   that seems to be and if this portrayal [TS]

00:18:45   of himself in the book is anything he's [TS]

00:18:47   like the most conscientious but relax [TS]

00:18:50   guy he's the guy you go to when you are [TS]

00:18:52   totally freaking out and he doesn't just [TS]

00:18:55   excuse it he makes he figures that I was [TS]

00:18:57   like a guru practically doesn't pay [TS]

00:18:59   himself that way and a perfect foil to [TS]

00:19:01   this eve Steve Jobs hot mentality the [TS]

00:19:03   colon code called add Catmull is cold [TS]

00:19:06   but emotional and sensitive Steve Jobs [TS]

00:19:09   was high and they seem like such a [TS]

00:19:10   perfect complement but also a camel does [TS]

00:19:13   exactly what jobs does what we can read [TS]

00:19:15   jobs doesn't he's just telling us here [TS]

00:19:17   were so much about what steve jobs that [TS]

00:19:19   we had to infer read you know leaks and [TS]

00:19:21   things like that capitalist says hey we [TS]

00:19:23   did this crazy thing because we need to [TS]

00:19:25   reinvent everything we're doing suddenly [TS]

00:19:27   yeah and I don't you gotta throw John [TS]

00:19:29   Lasseter in there too who's a you know [TS]

00:19:31   the other piece of this the this this [TS]

00:19:33   this creative force and it's a [TS]

00:19:35   fascinating matchup jobs and cattle and [TS]

00:19:37   Lassiter and you know you've got a [TS]

00:19:38   you've got to think that a lot of a [TS]

00:19:40   success Pixar has had is being fortune [TS]

00:19:43   enough to have those people in in [TS]

00:19:45   positions of authority in that company [TS]

00:19:47   is as leaders well forget his capital [TS]

00:19:49   seem to isolate John Lasseter doesn't [TS]

00:19:51   seem to come up in the end not power [TS]

00:19:53   struggles when stuff really is being [TS]

00:19:55   pulled apart like taffy cattle talks [TS]

00:19:57   about his conversation directly with [TS]

00:19:58   jobs so lastly I think brought such I [TS]

00:20:00   mean the creative stuff like it's odd [TS]

00:20:03   that capital talk so much about [TS]

00:20:04   fostering the creative process without [TS]

00:20:06   being someone who himself is you know [TS]

00:20:08   artists Albany is at a level but not in [TS]

00:20:10   this way [TS]

00:20:11   time for a brief break for one of our [TS]

00:20:13   sponsors it's lynda.com and this is [TS]

00:20:17   going to be a sponsor read with a [TS]

00:20:18   special appearance by John siracusa in [TS]

00:20:21   it in an anecdote so stay tuned for that [TS]

00:20:23   lynda.com is a place to help you learn [TS]

00:20:26   and keep up-to-date with software pickup [TS]

00:20:28   brand new skills explore new hobbies [TS]

00:20:30   with easy-to-follow video tutorials that [TS]

00:20:33   is the killer feature at Leonard [TS]

00:20:35   lynda.com you are learning about lots of [TS]

00:20:37   tech topics from the beginner level to [TS]

00:20:40   the super advanced level but you're [TS]

00:20:42   doing it with professionally produced [TS]

00:20:44   high quality video tutorials from the [TS]

00:20:48   experts using the latest online tools [TS]

00:20:51   learning skills to increase your [TS]

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00:20:54   footage building websites programming [TS]

00:20:57   all of these things are available in the [TS]

00:20:59   huge more than 2,400 courses available [TS]

00:21:03   at lynda.com lynda.com works directly [TS]

00:21:07   with software companies to provide [TS]

00:21:08   timely training on the latest versions [TS]

00:21:10   of their products often the day that [TS]

00:21:12   those versions come out so you get a new [TS]

00:21:14   version of your favorite professional [TS]

00:21:16   app and you're wondering how do i take [TS]

00:21:18   advantage of the new features guess what [TS]

00:21:20   lynda.com probably has training for that [TS]

00:21:22   app on the day that you get the software [TS]

00:21:24   and like I said you can be a beginner or [TS]

00:21:28   a super advanced user there are courses [TS]

00:21:31   for all of the different experience [TS]

00:21:32   levels and there's one low monthly price [TS]

00:21:34   twenty-five dollars a month gives you [TS]

00:21:36   unlimited access you can watch as many [TS]

00:21:37   videos in the library as you want as [TS]

00:21:40   many times as you want there's no nickel [TS]

00:21:42   and diming there's one subscription [TS]

00:21:44   price twenty-five dollars a month and [TS]

00:21:46   you get everything and when I say [TS]

00:21:48   everything I mean everything microsoft [TS]

00:21:49   office adobe creative cloud Final Cut [TS]

00:21:51   Pro Logic Pro and more mac windows ipad [TS]

00:21:55   for business google docs and [TS]

00:21:57   google sheets keynote six there are so [TS]

00:21:59   many and here's my John syracuse the [TS]

00:22:01   story the incomparable dot-com is a [TS]

00:22:03   website that i built the front end of [TS]

00:22:05   myself and I'm not much of a web [TS]

00:22:07   designer and I certainly haven't [TS]

00:22:08   designed a lot of websites since the [TS]

00:22:10   20th century probably and I was talking [TS]

00:22:14   to John syracuse this weekend and he [TS]

00:22:16   said it shows it's like well it's true [TS]

00:22:19   it does and he's not one to mince words [TS]

00:22:21   but however I will say this i was proud [TS]

00:22:24   of myself i made it responsive it [TS]

00:22:27   actually does some things differently if [TS]

00:22:29   you're an iPad or an iPhone or if you [TS]

00:22:30   have a small browser windows my first [TS]

00:22:32   time ever doing that and it turns out [TS]

00:22:35   lynda.com has responsive design courses [TS]

00:22:39   so you can learn from the experts about [TS]

00:22:41   how to do something like make your [TS]

00:22:43   website responsive to smaller devices [TS]

00:22:45   and behave differently on mobile than it [TS]

00:22:47   does on the desktop and that's what I [TS]

00:22:49   did so that was pretty cool and John [TS]

00:22:51   siracusa being what professional was not [TS]

00:22:53   impressed but like I said every skill [TS]

00:22:56   level including mine can be serviced at [TS]

00:22:59   lynda.com so improve your skills learn [TS]

00:23:02   new software keep up with new technology [TS]

00:23:05   all the courses are incredibly [TS]

00:23:07   high-quality this is not somebody in [TS]

00:23:09   their basement on youtube making a [TS]

00:23:11   hostage video [TS]

00:23:12   these are super high quality in a [TS]

00:23:14   professional studio with experts [TS]

00:23:17   explaining things in bite-sized pieces [TS]

00:23:18   the navigation is really easy [TS]

00:23:21   it's really amazing you should see it [TS]

00:23:22   for yourself and I've got good news [TS]

00:23:24   there we have a sweet deal for you [TS]

00:23:26   lynda.com is going to provide you with a [TS]

00:23:29   special offer to access the whole [TS]

00:23:31   library free all of it not just the [TS]

00:23:33   intros not just some of the courses all [TS]

00:23:35   the courses free for seven days [TS]

00:23:38   here's what you need to do visit [TS]

00:23:39   linda.com ly ND a.com slash incomparable [TS]

00:23:44   to start your seven day free trial [TS]

00:23:46   that's ly ND a.com slash incomparable [TS]

00:23:52   and thank you so much to the good people [TS]

00:23:54   at lynda.com for teaching me some things [TS]

00:23:56   about responsive design despite John [TS]

00:23:58   Syracuse and not being impressed and for [TS]

00:24:01   supporting me uncomfortable going back [TS]

00:24:03   to story the thing that struck me this [TS]

00:24:05   this is the one actual quote that i [TS]

00:24:07   highlighted wanted to mention [TS]

00:24:10   even before jobs comes into the picture [TS]

00:24:11   when they're doing their very first [TS]

00:24:13   short thing just to try it out and show [TS]

00:24:15   their new techniques and they didn't get [TS]

00:24:18   it done in time for the the premier any [TS]

00:24:21   and he says we could complete a rough [TS]

00:24:23   version of it in time but portions will [TS]

00:24:25   be unfinished as his wireframe images [TS]

00:24:27   mock-ups made from polygons of the [TS]

00:24:29   finished characters instead of fully [TS]

00:24:31   colored images the night of our premier [TS]

00:24:33   we watched mortified as these segments [TS]

00:24:36   appeared on the screen but something [TS]

00:24:37   surprising happened despite our worries [TS]

00:24:40   the majority of the people said they [TS]

00:24:42   hadn't even noticed that the movie had [TS]

00:24:44   switched from full color to black and [TS]

00:24:45   white wire frames they were so caught up [TS]

00:24:48   in the emotion of the story that they [TS]

00:24:49   hadn't noticed its flaws and here's the [TS]

00:24:52   money quote this is my first encounter [TS]

00:24:54   with the phenomenon i would notice again [TS]

00:24:56   and again throughout my career for all [TS]

00:24:58   the care you put into artistry visual [TS]

00:25:01   polish frequently doesn't matter if [TS]

00:25:03   you're getting the story right and i run [TS]

00:25:06   across that in theatres all the time to [TS]

00:25:08   some of the most beautiful acting some [TS]

00:25:11   of the most beautiful writing I've ever [TS]

00:25:13   seen has been on a stage with the table [TS]

00:25:15   and two chairs and two actors speaking [TS]

00:25:17   words that no projections no fancy set [TS]

00:25:20   design the lighting tricks you know and [TS]

00:25:23   yet you go you know I go to theater all [TS]

00:25:25   the time and see the gorgeous gorgeous [TS]

00:25:27   set designs and lighting and projections [TS]

00:25:30   smallest all in the service of a story [TS]

00:25:33   that really needs work and you know and [TS]

00:25:36   and i just love that and I i want to [TS]

00:25:39   take this book and shove it in the hands [TS]

00:25:41   of every person working in a theater [TS]

00:25:43   company building in this country because [TS]

00:25:45   they could use it seriously troubles a [TS]

00:25:47   lot of them will say oh this doesn't [TS]

00:25:49   apply to meet we're not doing it with [TS]

00:25:50   you're not technology whether it's the [TS]

00:25:52   pureblood they be like no no you gotta [TS]

00:25:54   drop that you go kart and read this and [TS]

00:25:56   accepted i'm so glad you mentioned ego [TS]

00:25:58   because that's one thing that comes [TS]

00:26:00   through in this book I made a note about [TS]

00:26:02   the the lack of eagle one of the things [TS]

00:26:05   I've noticed about really intelligent [TS]

00:26:06   people that I've run across again and [TS]

00:26:08   again is they have an all-day they have [TS]

00:26:10   a wonderful lack of ego they're really [TS]

00:26:13   open to new ideas regardless of the [TS]

00:26:14   source they don't find a lot of [TS]

00:26:16   hierarchy to it and and to them it's [TS]

00:26:19   more important that ideas that ideas are [TS]

00:26:21   tried tested deploy effectively [TS]

00:26:23   make the world a better and more [TS]

00:26:24   interesting place and this this [TS]

00:26:26   capitalism at say it says it explicitly [TS]

00:26:30   but this ethos permeates the whole book [TS]

00:26:32   i think this idea that pixar you can [TS]

00:26:35   take profit you should take you should [TS]

00:26:36   take enormous pride and craftsmanship [TS]

00:26:38   and your work but ultimately one of the [TS]

00:26:41   reasons it succeeds is because they [TS]

00:26:42   don't as a culture they don't indulge [TS]

00:26:45   Divas they don't indulge a cult of [TS]

00:26:48   personality they don't indulge ego at [TS]

00:26:49   all and you have to learn to be the kind [TS]

00:26:53   of smart where you don't have a lot of [TS]

00:26:55   ego bound up with being the smartest [TS]

00:26:57   person in the room you have to be the [TS]

00:26:58   kind of smart where you keep your eyes [TS]

00:27:00   open and your receptive to new ideas and [TS]

00:27:03   you are always always always open to the [TS]

00:27:06   possibility that you can learn something [TS]

00:27:07   from anyone in any way and they talk [TS]

00:27:09   about this with everybody has you know [TS]

00:27:11   pictures problems everyone's problems [TS]

00:27:13   you don't have to wait for permission to [TS]

00:27:15   grant responsibility [TS]

00:27:16   you don't have to wait for permission to [TS]

00:27:18   speak hierarchy doesn't matter [TS]

00:27:20   ATP emphasizes will you show the company [TS]

00:27:22   has hierarchy in some fashion but they [TS]

00:27:24   they want good ideas and good solutions [TS]

00:27:26   to come from everywhere and in order to [TS]

00:27:28   empower people that way you you kind of [TS]

00:27:30   have to aggressively de-emphasize ego as [TS]

00:27:33   a function of intellect a lot of people [TS]

00:27:35   don't respond to criticism well they and [TS]

00:27:37   they take it as a personal affront and [TS]

00:27:39   and creating a culture where everybody [TS]

00:27:42   is on the same team and they're just [TS]

00:27:44   trying to make the thing better and that [TS]

00:27:45   the idea the idea that you have is a [TS]

00:27:48   starting point and if it if there's a [TS]

00:27:50   better idea that comes out of it then [TS]

00:27:52   you didn't lose because your idea wasn't [TS]

00:27:55   good enough you're just part of this [TS]

00:27:56   process and that is you know I took a [TS]

00:27:59   Creative Writing course in college and [TS]

00:28:01   you know I we all have to critique other [TS]

00:28:03   people's work that was the assignment [TS]

00:28:05   that's how you got graded and it's you [TS]

00:28:07   know you try to be gentle [TS]

00:28:09   you know but some people you are [TS]

00:28:11   destroying this thing that they they [TS]

00:28:14   think it's a personal insult and and I [TS]

00:28:16   was amazed by the fact that it picks are [TS]

00:28:18   they really got to the point where [TS]

00:28:19   everybody felt like they could say [TS]

00:28:21   something everybody can make you know [TS]

00:28:23   make these comments about what they want [TS]

00:28:25   and what what the what the story should [TS]

00:28:28   be and you know andrew stanton could [TS]

00:28:31   have had the idea that was sitting there [TS]

00:28:32   that got torn apart and his response [TS]

00:28:34   would be you know great i'm glad week it [TS]

00:28:36   got something [TS]

00:28:37   around a bit and then that's good enough [TS]

00:28:39   in the after we're talking about Steve [TS]

00:28:41   Jobs they talk about one of steve's [TS]

00:28:42   greatest strength was pitching pitching [TS]

00:28:44   ideas where and he says explicitly [TS]

00:28:46   pitching isn't as a way of testing [TS]

00:28:48   material taking this measure and [TS]

00:28:49   strengthening it by observing how place [TS]

00:28:51   an audience but if the idea doesn't fly [TS]

00:28:52   good people who go to pitching are [TS]

00:28:55   extremely adept dropping it moving on [TS]

00:28:57   and it's a rare skill and it also steve [TS]

00:28:59   jobs ego doesn't attach the suggestions [TS]

00:29:01   he makes even as he throws his full [TS]

00:29:02   weight of belief beyond them he was just [TS]

00:29:04   there's a certain lack of ego and in [TS]

00:29:06   making in making suggestions and in [TS]

00:29:09   being open to criticism and an iterative [TS]

00:29:12   processes there so i have an insight [TS]

00:29:15   from my one of my few forays into [TS]

00:29:17   corporate culture is I mean I work the [TS]

00:29:18   amazon.com in the early days and and [TS]

00:29:21   jeff bezos is a complete genius he's [TS]

00:29:23   also a great manager he had but without [TS]

00:29:27   going to detail it was interesting to [TS]

00:29:29   read this and have watched how Amazon [TS]

00:29:32   grew and it's missteps and the kind of [TS]

00:29:34   culture it appears to have created both [TS]

00:29:35   from external reports of people I work [TS]

00:29:37   there at different times including [TS]

00:29:39   recently and the reason you can have [TS]

00:29:42   open criticism a place like Pixar is [TS]

00:29:44   because you're not going to be fired and [TS]

00:29:46   we talked about the little earlier like [TS]

00:29:47   people worried about job you know the [TS]

00:29:49   the disney culture people worry about [TS]

00:29:51   saying the wrong thing and whatever in [TS]

00:29:52   when i was an Amazon one of the reasons [TS]

00:29:54   i left after six months as I was put in [TS]

00:29:56   charge a few months into a huge project [TS]

00:29:59   I did my part right i could not get any [TS]

00:30:02   of the company had a hundred people when [TS]

00:30:03   i joined and about 400 when I left and I [TS]

00:30:06   could not get any of the already siloed [TS]

00:30:08   closed-off other divisions do what I was [TS]

00:30:11   being directed to do by the CEO of the [TS]

00:30:13   company they would not do it and I [TS]

00:30:15   realized because i couldn't succeed in [TS]

00:30:17   that environment there is no future for [TS]

00:30:19   me there and that was one of the things [TS]

00:30:20   that contribute to me leaving I wasn't [TS]

00:30:22   exactly forced out but there was no more [TS]

00:30:23   roll and I feel like the environment [TS]

00:30:25   pixar if this is any accurate [TS]

00:30:27   description which it seems to be based [TS]

00:30:29   again on like external signs you know [TS]

00:30:31   that the film's they released the kind [TS]

00:30:33   of stories they tell and then the people [TS]

00:30:34   come out of it they they you're not [TS]

00:30:38   fired for being part of helping make [TS]

00:30:41   things better when you say things are [TS]

00:30:43   wrong or when you try to break down like [TS]

00:30:45   there's a number of discussions about [TS]

00:30:47   the production side the creative side or [TS]

00:30:49   or on this person you know they sent [TS]

00:30:51   somebody often three days they figure [TS]

00:30:52   out how to do this thing that should [TS]

00:30:53   have taken you know six months they're [TS]

00:30:55   able to rework that thing at disney the [TS]

00:30:57   the model for one of the characters in a [TS]

00:30:59   walk-on 1402 it's it's you were not pet [TS]

00:31:03   he apparently figured a way to not make [TS]

00:31:05   people worry they would lose their job [TS]

00:31:07   it was more sensible for you to speak up [TS]

00:31:10   then to remain quiet was a safer thing [TS]

00:31:12   to speak up and that is in this [TS]

00:31:14   extremely crazy thing I wanted to talk [TS]

00:31:17   about there's a line in this book that [TS]

00:31:19   up that I what was one of my highlights [TS]

00:31:22   on the candle which was about leaders of [TS]

00:31:25   companies focus so focused on the [TS]

00:31:27   competition they were never they never [TS]

00:31:28   developed in deep introspection about [TS]

00:31:30   other destructive forces that work in [TS]

00:31:33   this introspection i think is another [TS]

00:31:35   big part of the pixar story that there [TS]

00:31:37   that there always concerned about you [TS]

00:31:41   know what's going on that the problems [TS]

00:31:43   they can't see the mistakes that are [TS]

00:31:45   happening that that success [TS]

00:31:48   there's a line John Madden the former [TS]

00:31:50   football coach and sports announcer like [TS]

00:31:52   to say that winning is a great deodorant [TS]

00:31:54   and you know as long as you're winning [TS]

00:31:56   the problems that you've got in your [TS]

00:31:58   locker room or wherever don't matter [TS]

00:32:00   because you're winning but as soon as [TS]

00:32:01   you stop winning then you realize [TS]

00:32:03   everything stinks and this is this is [TS]

00:32:04   really what had cattle is getting out [TS]

00:32:06   here is we can't wait for us to have a [TS]

00:32:08   failure to discover that we have lots of [TS]

00:32:12   major problems with what we're doing we [TS]

00:32:15   need to we need to be rooting that stuff [TS]

00:32:18   out now and that reminded me of was it [TS]

00:32:21   was it a episode or two of hypercritical [TS]

00:32:23   John where you talked about a lot of the [TS]

00:32:24   same points this uh you know had Pixar's [TS]

00:32:27   take on you know you you've got to be [TS]

00:32:29   constantly rooting out these these [TS]

00:32:31   things and and that you can't wait for [TS]

00:32:33   failure to do it well the episode first [TS]

00:32:37   motion picture i think was about i [TS]

00:32:39   forget what you were going through a [TS]

00:32:40   bunch of big companies and saying what [TS]

00:32:42   we thought was wrong with them and pixar [TS]

00:32:44   was the 1i think I saved to the end [TS]

00:32:46   because it's like who's going to say [TS]

00:32:47   something bad about pixar this is maybe [TS]

00:32:49   2011 or something [TS]

00:32:50   what could possibly be wrong with Pixar [TS]

00:32:53   everyone loves pixar to make great [TS]

00:32:54   movies you know obviously this is before [TS]

00:32:56   this book [TS]

00:32:57   and before I knew pretty much anything [TS]

00:32:59   about the inner workings and the one [TS]

00:33:02   thing I decided that seemed like it was [TS]

00:33:04   wrong with Pixar is this string of [TS]

00:33:07   successes without any failures up to [TS]

00:33:09   that point pointed to a situation where [TS]

00:33:13   they weren't taking enough risks right [TS]

00:33:15   and so it's like all right what it you [TS]

00:33:17   know if every single movie is success [TS]

00:33:20   are any of these movies as biggest [TS]

00:33:22   success they could be if you're willing [TS]

00:33:23   to take more risks and the tweet reply I [TS]

00:33:25   got from michael johnson who is [TS]

00:33:27   mentioned in this book and works at [TS]

00:33:28   Pixar cleaning [TS]

00:33:30   yeah good friend of the show Michael [TS]

00:33:32   Johnson who is mentioned in the book in [TS]

00:33:35   response to to that episode of [TS]

00:33:37   hypocritical was a tweet that I should [TS]

00:33:39   look it up but i believe the entire [TS]

00:33:41   content of the tweet is we don't release [TS]

00:33:43   our failures which was a reasonable [TS]

00:33:46   answer and if you look in the book you [TS]

00:33:47   can see that right now they talk about [TS]

00:33:48   entire movies that they spent millions [TS]

00:33:50   of dollars on that said you know what [TS]

00:33:52   the blue yeah yeah yeah that movie is [TS]

00:33:54   not coming out or all the movies with a [TS]

00:33:56   change Directors and and stuff like that [TS]

00:33:58   with it yet where the movie is [TS]

00:34:00   essentially not the same movie they were [TS]

00:34:02   working on because they change directors [TS]

00:34:04   they barely mentioned brave and that was [TS]

00:34:06   when I would have one moment invention [TS]

00:34:08   cars to either look like this before i [TS]

00:34:12   had seen car so I didn't know you know [TS]

00:34:13   but like and I think a lot of the things [TS]

00:34:15   in the book if we go back and listen to [TS]

00:34:18   the hypercritical episode you can see a [TS]

00:34:20   lot of things in the book that directly [TS]

00:34:23   speak to those particular points and a [TS]

00:34:26   lot of people ask me all right so given [TS]

00:34:27   that you've read this book do you feel [TS]

00:34:28   like it answers your question or your [TS]

00:34:30   you're concerned about what's wrong with [TS]

00:34:32   Pixar's and in many respects of course [TS]

00:34:33   illuminating and learning how things [TS]

00:34:34   happen or whatever but I in one [TS]

00:34:37   particular respect I think it it still [TS]

00:34:39   leaves the question unanswered and I [TS]

00:34:41   don't think this is necessarily weakness [TS]

00:34:43   of pixar but it's just the kind of [TS]

00:34:44   company decided to create is one in [TS]

00:34:47   which they have a system for making good [TS]

00:34:50   movies and like the brain trust is a [TS]

00:34:54   great example part of that system is at [TS]

00:34:57   various points in the development of a [TS]

00:34:58   movie we are going to have input from [TS]

00:35:01   all these other great smart creative [TS]

00:35:02   people to help you fix what's wrong with [TS]

00:35:04   your movie and we're gonna you know and [TS]

00:35:06   we're going to kill it if it looks like [TS]

00:35:07   it's not going anywhere or we're gonna [TS]

00:35:09   change the director if it looks like we [TS]

00:35:10   need to do that [TS]

00:35:11   right all these things are options on [TS]

00:35:12   the table all this is structured to not [TS]

00:35:16   allow a failure out into the market [TS]

00:35:19   essentially and that you would say is a [TS]

00:35:21   strength of it but i think the the [TS]

00:35:23   larger point i was getting at him in the [TS]

00:35:25   you know let me try to find something is [TS]

00:35:26   wrong with Pixar those comparing it to [TS]

00:35:27   miyazaki when you have one person who's [TS]

00:35:30   in charge who seems to have very limited [TS]

00:35:32   input from anyone else or sort of like [TS]

00:35:34   he does what he wants to do and there's [TS]

00:35:36   no brain trust is going to convince them [TS]

00:35:37   to this works it doesn't work that [TS]

00:35:39   person is going to put about a bunch of [TS]

00:35:40   weird movies with weak parts sometimes [TS]

00:35:43   total stinker movies but you also may [TS]

00:35:46   get eventually something that is [TS]

00:35:49   transcended that could never have been [TS]

00:35:50   produced by system that was subject to [TS]

00:35:52   that sort of collaborative process i'm [TS]

00:35:54   not saying one of those things is better [TS]

00:35:56   than the other but it's clear that Pixar [TS]

00:35:58   is the kind of company that is it [TS]

00:35:59   they've created a system a sort of [TS]

00:36:02   self-healing system whereby they can [TS]

00:36:04   make great movies and I i still wonder [TS]

00:36:07   if does that system preclude making a [TS]

00:36:11   transcendent movie alongside a bunch of [TS]

00:36:13   turds like or that we always that are [TS]

00:36:15   uneven or whatever because like you know [TS]

00:36:17   i guess like the auteur theory versus [TS]

00:36:19   you know within that the system they [TS]

00:36:21   made for making movies yes the director [TS]

00:36:22   has ultimate control and that your brain [TS]

00:36:24   trust doesn't have authority to tell [TS]

00:36:25   them what to do but it's still a process [TS]

00:36:27   its is an engineering approach to [TS]

00:36:30   creative work which i think is an [TS]

00:36:31   amazing innovation a breakthrough in [TS]

00:36:33   itself and who can argue with the [TS]

00:36:34   results but it definitely is a different [TS]

00:36:36   beast then we have one genius who threw [TS]

00:36:38   his lifetime is going to make a bunch of [TS]

00:36:40   movies some of them are going to be [TS]

00:36:41   great some of the middle weird someone's [TS]

00:36:42   going to be awful and one or two of them [TS]

00:36:44   are going to be the shining gems are you [TS]

00:36:46   ever going to get the shining James with [TS]

00:36:47   this process of pixar maybe they're just [TS]

00:36:49   different kind of gems Ruby's instead of [TS]

00:36:50   sapphires it comes back to the money [TS]

00:36:52   issue though to that you have to the [TS]

00:36:53   fact that they can put so much money and [TS]

00:36:55   walk away from most organizations cannot [TS]

00:36:58   say we put 10 or 15 million dollars into [TS]

00:37:01   development to this or whatever it is [TS]

00:37:03   more doctor releases almost movie [TS]

00:37:04   studios can now what you know they [TS]

00:37:06   release them they do different things [TS]

00:37:08   it's 120 business models out there is [TS]

00:37:11   the movie because all they need a few [TS]

00:37:13   really good hits every year and they can [TS]

00:37:14   finance a boatload of failure but they [TS]

00:37:16   release all the failures and tricks are [TS]

00:37:18   doesn't release them even as the amazing [TS]

00:37:19   part of a spike movies that you know [TS]

00:37:21   that there are lots of things and [TS]

00:37:22   behind-the-scenes and then i'm reminded [TS]

00:37:23   of something I was actually thinking [TS]

00:37:24   about while I was reading this a world [TS]

00:37:26   war z where the story is they took the [TS]

00:37:28   last day they had finished the movie and [TS]

00:37:30   they took the last 30 minutes of it and [TS]

00:37:31   said it's not working and they went out [TS]

00:37:33   and reshot the last 30 minutes with a [TS]

00:37:36   completely different script and it was a [TS]

00:37:38   hit been so it was like it [TS]

00:37:41   so I've seen that before but you're [TS]

00:37:43   right you movie studios that can afford [TS]

00:37:44   to spend millions of dollars reshoots [TS]

00:37:47   are the example here a lot of times you [TS]

00:37:48   just gonna get whipped into decent shape [TS]

00:37:51   and get out the door and betterment of [TS]

00:37:52   communication with even with a big movie [TS]

00:37:54   studios one of the ongoing problems [TS]

00:37:55   Hollywood has had is middle market or [TS]

00:37:57   experimental films are actually getting [TS]

00:37:59   squeezed down because right most studios [TS]

00:38:01   are now so profoundly risk averse and so [TS]

00:38:04   intent on the bottom line they're only [TS]

00:38:05   going to do what they consider to be [TS]

00:38:06   tentpole blockbusters your franchises [TS]

00:38:08   your sequels youryour licensable [TS]

00:38:10   characters [TS]

00:38:10   that's why we have movies based on old [TS]

00:38:12   TV shows right is because those are at [TS]

00:38:14   least they've got some free market but [TS]

00:38:16   another thing like for example a movie [TS]

00:38:17   like terms of endearment couldn't get me [TS]

00:38:19   today [TS]

00:38:20   XR isn't risk-averse though because they [TS]

00:38:21   have like that that whole process of [TS]

00:38:23   like we together as a company are going [TS]

00:38:25   to work to make sure this directors [TS]

00:38:27   movie succeeds we're going to take all [TS]

00:38:28   our collective experience and influence [TS]

00:38:31   try to like to to collaborate on this [TS]

00:38:32   morning yes that's the director's movie [TS]

00:38:34   but we're going to make sure that we [TS]

00:38:35   don't put it out anything bad [TS]

00:38:37   and those those sort of pressures and [TS]

00:38:39   input supplied like this the scene isn't [TS]

00:38:41   working and maybe this character could [TS]

00:38:42   be better whatever all that stuff makes [TS]

00:38:44   the movie better [TS]

00:38:45   the only thing I question about this [TS]

00:38:46   process is it do you end up with a [TS]

00:38:49   different type of movie a series of [TS]

00:38:50   really great movies and maybe a couple [TS]

00:38:53   of good ones but no bad ones versus a [TS]

00:38:55   process where an individual doesn't have [TS]

00:38:59   the benefit of that input and is going [TS]

00:39:00   to have scenes in the movie The don't [TS]

00:39:02   work they could have easily been fixed [TS]

00:39:03   by your brain just meeting is going to [TS]

00:39:05   have some movies that in in their [TS]

00:39:06   entirety don't work but that is also [TS]

00:39:08   occasionally going to be able to follow [TS]

00:39:09   his muse in a direction that would have [TS]

00:39:11   received feed good intelligent feedback [TS]

00:39:14   from other people that nevertheless [TS]

00:39:15   would have been shaving the edges [TS]

00:39:16   off the movie like and I keep picking [TS]

00:39:18   miyazaki because there are definitely [TS]

00:39:20   weird pointy edges and birds on those [TS]

00:39:23   movies and in some respects like that [TS]

00:39:25   the the the imperfections or the parts [TS]

00:39:28   that don't work or the things like if [TS]

00:39:29   you take any document we turn to the [TS]

00:39:31   brain does that tell you 50 things that [TS]

00:39:32   are wrong with it and yet somehow the [TS]

00:39:33   whole some tile feels different to me [TS]

00:39:36   than even my favorite pixar movies do [TS]

00:39:38   and i'm not saying that's a bad part of [TS]

00:39:40   the pixar process i'm saying that's [TS]

00:39:42   that's what they've made and it is [TS]

00:39:44   pretty amazing considering that that's [TS]

00:39:45   what made you think about the movie [TS]

00:39:46   studios who have like the broken version [TS]

00:39:49   of that machine was just like well we [TS]

00:39:50   take we take what was good and what time [TS]

00:39:52   to make a crappier and sometimes we find [TS]

00:39:54   stuff that we know is gonna be crap or [TS]

00:39:56   whatever Pixar's way above that level [TS]

00:39:58   but that was their example when they [TS]

00:39:59   took over dissonant disney and said oh [TS]

00:40:01   my god you know what we do here can this [TS]

00:40:03   process save this company and they felt [TS]

00:40:04   like when I actually it with wreck-it [TS]

00:40:06   Ralph and frozen i mean it it did you [TS]

00:40:09   write this as my husband point out the [TS]

00:40:11   last two disney animated movies to come [TS]

00:40:13   out which were record Robin frozen have [TS]

00:40:14   have been in his estimated information [TS]

00:40:16   better than the last two pixar movies [TS]

00:40:18   that have come [TS]

00:40:19   even so he feels like the balance he [TS]

00:40:20   feels like the balance of storytelling [TS]

00:40:22   in talent has shifted from one to the [TS]

00:40:25   other brave is also just a movie right [TS]

00:40:26   brain is not pixar know that was pretty [TS]

00:40:29   it's the only Pixar movie I really don't [TS]

00:40:31   like I haven't seen cars to yet so I i [TS]

00:40:34   have seen cars 2 and it wasn't a [TS]

00:40:36   terrible movie but it definitely like it [TS]

00:40:39   is definitely i wanted to say something [TS]

00:40:41   about that Miyazaki idea because John I [TS]

00:40:43   I totally get where you're coming from [TS]

00:40:44   and I i think i agree with you that it's [TS]

00:40:47   less likely that you're going to get [TS]

00:40:49   I mean even when you know we've been [TS]

00:40:51   Brad Brad Bird and understand these [TS]

00:40:53   people they step into that room and [TS]

00:40:54   they're still going to be part of the [TS]

00:40:55   process and they may lead it may bring [TS]

00:40:57   their idea to the table but it's it is [TS]

00:41:00   part of the story process and you wonder [TS]

00:41:01   if something very strange and [TS]

00:41:04   idiosyncratic will not happen because [TS]

00:41:06   the the the process won't allow it [TS]

00:41:09   that said Pixar has done some strange i [TS]

00:41:13   mean up has a lot of really weird things [TS]

00:41:16   about it and the first half hour of [TS]

00:41:17   Wally is a brilliant and weird uh and [TS]

00:41:23   dialogue lists set of images right so [TS]

00:41:26   it's not as if it's so I'm torn because [TS]

00:41:28   I think you're right but I feel like [TS]

00:41:30   there's more given the process then [TS]

00:41:32   maybe you might expect [TS]

00:41:34   here's the thing that would when you go [TS]

00:41:36   into the room or you when you have this [TS]

00:41:37   collaborative process and these ppl [TS]

00:41:39   office offer these suggestions there [TS]

00:41:40   right there right that this thing isn't [TS]

00:41:42   working in the subtle way that this [TS]

00:41:44   thing could be better in this way and [TS]

00:41:45   and maybe you should you need to figure [TS]

00:41:47   out what the problem is here because [TS]

00:41:48   this isn't there but that's why that's [TS]

00:41:50   why the machine works because all those [TS]

00:41:52   people are right right [TS]

00:41:53   I and it's not like they're making your [TS]

00:41:55   movie worse but they are changing it if [TS]

00:41:58   it's completely smooth like if you it's [TS]

00:42:00   not completely smooth that they're [TS]

00:42:01   they're making your movie better than it [TS]

00:42:03   was but they are closing the door on [TS]

00:42:06   some aspects of the way the movie could [TS]

00:42:08   have been if it had if everything had [TS]

00:42:10   gone well and if we got like was that [TS]

00:42:11   they're basically increasing your [TS]

00:42:13   batting average you're gonna do much [TS]

00:42:14   better they're going to make your movie [TS]

00:42:16   better and that's the danger of having [TS]

00:42:18   the input from all the smart people as [TS]

00:42:19   they are actually write about what but [TS]

00:42:21   it may be at that point if those people [TS]

00:42:22   weren't there what would you have done [TS]

00:42:24   would you have made a crappy movie [TS]

00:42:25   that's very likely are made a movie [TS]

00:42:27   that's worse [TS]

00:42:28   there's also the possibility depending [TS]

00:42:29   on who you are again the auteur theory [TS]

00:42:31   that like one person singular vision [TS]

00:42:33   with minimal input from everyone else is [TS]

00:42:36   there because they're megalomaniac [TS]

00:42:38   because they're insane because there's [TS]

00:42:39   no one in the company who has anywhere [TS]

00:42:40   close to their talent like all sorts of [TS]

00:42:42   unhealthy things that nevertheless [TS]

00:42:44   produced like over Miyazaki's lifetime [TS]

00:42:46   his collaborators work with people or [TS]

00:42:48   whatever but like no it's his singular [TS]

00:42:51   vision for the or someone else's vision [TS]

00:42:55   that he guides through to you know it's [TS]

00:42:56   like it's he could have benefited from [TS]

00:43:00   all these this kind of input and they [TS]

00:43:02   all would've been right and and he would [TS]

00:43:04   have known their right and he would have [TS]

00:43:05   listened to them but his movies would [TS]

00:43:06   have been different i have one kind of [TS]

00:43:08   great counter example of that which is [TS]

00:43:09   sky captain in the world of tomorrow [TS]

00:43:12   that was an otter vision nobody told him [TS]

00:43:14   is beautiful [TS]

00:43:15   you also have to be a genius that is the [TS]

00:43:18   difference between a good orator and [TS]

00:43:20   someone who just wants control what [TS]

00:43:22   that's my question is to the barriers [TS]

00:43:24   get lowered is like everything capital [TS]

00:43:25   is discussing is within the constraints [TS]

00:43:27   of films where they need who knows how [TS]

00:43:29   many teraflops of computation power and [TS]

00:43:33   the most sophisticated people working in [TS]

00:43:34   the field and constantly developing the [TS]

00:43:36   cutting edge of software again that echo [TS]

00:43:38   of steve jobs were jobs.can in through [TS]

00:43:41   jony ive's is [TS]

00:43:42   John I've is pushing at the limits of [TS]

00:43:44   what can be built in computer technology [TS]

00:43:46   and buying new kinds of lasers are [TS]

00:43:48   buying every kind of laser that makes a [TS]

00:43:50   special dot for the macbooks or special [TS]

00:43:53   transparent let you know [TS]

00:43:55   aluminum thing the same token like [TS]

00:43:56   Pixar's at the absolute cutting edge of [TS]

00:43:59   computer graphics science and that is [TS]

00:44:01   part of how they continue to be able to [TS]

00:44:03   advance the story telling [TS]

00:44:05   so can you be able to tell stories and [TS]

00:44:07   simpler ways without requiring [TS]

00:44:08   cutting-edge computer animation can one [TS]

00:44:11   person do it i think the answer is is [TS]

00:44:13   probably our small team the answer is [TS]

00:44:15   yes but i think in the structure of a [TS]

00:44:18   film of this scale of this type which [TS]

00:44:20   read some reaches a mass audience they [TS]

00:44:22   may have perfected that process by not [TS]

00:44:24   ever believing they perfected it but I i [TS]

00:44:26   actually completely agree with you John [TS]

00:44:28   is that you're gonna miss out because [TS]

00:44:29   you're making films even if they're [TS]

00:44:31   great on average are great and never [TS]

00:44:33   have stinkers you're never going to have [TS]

00:44:35   the imperfections that lead to the that [TS]

00:44:38   revision that's just totally out of [TS]

00:44:40   control because nobody even without [TS]

00:44:42   being risk-averse are not going to do it [TS]

00:44:44   in that environment [TS]

00:44:45   well and you know for instance it's it's [TS]

00:44:47   I I think we're all geeky enough that we [TS]

00:44:49   know who directed what pixar film long [TS]

00:44:51   before we read this book but for most [TS]

00:44:54   people they're gonna see that and go oh [TS]

00:44:57   that's a Pixar film where they might [TS]

00:44:59   look and say oh that's a Hitchcock film [TS]

00:45:01   that's a Tarantino film that so that's a [TS]

00:45:02   wes anderson film picture is the altar [TS]

00:45:05   and you know that's why it's really [TS]

00:45:07   interesting that Edgar Wright left and [TS]

00:45:10   man which is that's going to be a Marvel [TS]

00:45:13   film it and it was never going to be in [TS]

00:45:15   it you're right film yeah he was trying [TS]

00:45:16   to make it negative right film you get [TS]

00:45:18   that sense right and horrible is another [TS]

00:45:21   story committee was your clothes [TS]

00:45:23   oh god oh but we're all bummed out about [TS]

00:45:25   it maybe a much better [TS]

00:45:28   Marvel product at the end of it but it's [TS]

00:45:30   not going to have that stamp and that [TS]

00:45:33   weirdness and now my question to you and [TS]

00:45:36   this is complete the real from the book [TS]

00:45:38   but not a derail for the uncomfortable [TS]

00:45:40   um is if we're talking about marvel as [TS]

00:45:43   an imprint and so on and so forth how do [TS]

00:45:44   you explain the joss whedon influence as [TS]

00:45:48   it as it meshes into them to the marble [TS]

00:45:51   franchise because when you watch The [TS]

00:45:53   Adventures that's definitely good [TS]

00:45:55   got that's definitely more of a just [TS]

00:45:57   weak property in a lot of ways you know [TS]

00:45:59   but he's a very natural fit I mean buffy [TS]

00:46:03   the vampire slayer is right on that [TS]

00:46:05   temple yeah it's in my defense it's [TS]

00:46:06   basically the same since it's so it's [TS]

00:46:08   just a matter of saying we translate we [TS]

00:46:09   would given Buffy Russian backstory and [TS]

00:46:12   yeah I i think it's and Vander is now [TS]

00:46:15   useless Archer and no no [TS]

00:46:18   so here's the thing marvel to has a has [TS]

00:46:22   a brain trust you know a collection of [TS]

00:46:24   producers and writers that they bring in [TS]

00:46:27   and break down their stories with the [TS]

00:46:29   end you know I think the comics do too [TS]

00:46:31   but the individual comic writers often [TS]

00:46:33   have more latitude for something like [TS]

00:46:35   these movies they have something very [TS]

00:46:36   similar and and in this case I think [TS]

00:46:38   what they wanted to find somebody who [TS]

00:46:40   was a kindred spirit who could you know [TS]

00:46:44   put this story together and and be that [TS]

00:46:46   be the writer and director but also work [TS]

00:46:48   within their framework and so I think [TS]

00:46:52   John spring and joss whedon to do the [TS]

00:46:54   Avengers is maybe not that different [TS]

00:46:56   from from bringing in now I'm going to [TS]

00:47:00   blank on his name Brad Bird bringing in [TS]

00:47:03   brad bird to do the incredibles rite aid [TS]

00:47:05   he was a known quantity had done the [TS]

00:47:07   iron giant it was a huge hit at the box [TS]

00:47:09   office but everybody loved it and he had [TS]

00:47:11   the idea for the incredibles and studios [TS]

00:47:13   wanted this is something i didn't know [TS]

00:47:15   studios wanted him to bring that idea to [TS]

00:47:18   them and he ended up bringing it to [TS]

00:47:20   Pixar and so he brought his idea and he [TS]

00:47:22   was a known quantity but when he came he [TS]

00:47:25   came into the the committee and into the [TS]

00:47:28   group and into the process and and [TS]

00:47:30   that's how I sort of feel like the joss [TS]

00:47:32   whedon thing is it's kinda like that [TS]

00:47:34   you're bringing a known quantity into a [TS]

00:47:36   system somebody who you think is going [TS]

00:47:38   to be a kindred spirit and sometimes [TS]

00:47:39   that doesn't work out right like with [TS]

00:47:41   ant-man and did you know that they fell [TS]

00:47:43   apart and when we see with these pixar [TS]

00:47:45   movies that like brave you know was one [TS]

00:47:48   of those examples where they fired the [TS]

00:47:49   director and she left and they brought [TS]

00:47:51   in another director to to make the end [TS]

00:47:54   of the movie different and get it to be [TS]

00:47:55   what they wanted it to be a lot less [TS]

00:47:57   like it I love brave and I own the [TS]

00:47:59   blu-ray so we can guide you or Dan or [TS]

00:48:01   whatever your name is [TS]

00:48:02   yeah I'll be there now ok I'll go ahead [TS]

00:48:04   i think i think dan would point out [TS]

00:48:06   that Josh was already part of the Marvel [TS]

00:48:08   family because he'd been writing x-men [TS]

00:48:10   comics for several years at that point [TS]

00:48:11   he was not just a known quantity [TS]

00:48:13   tomorrow but he had actively worked with [TS]

00:48:15   Marvel you have a duck comics are nice [TS]

00:48:18   and that's not why I'm faster with the [TS]

00:48:20   penalty Marvel and pixar now because if [TS]

00:48:22   you look at the different directors to [TS]

00:48:24   have different styles and one of the [TS]

00:48:25   things that Marvel i think is done [TS]

00:48:27   possibly a little bit better than DC is [TS]

00:48:29   it gives riders their own voice in their [TS]

00:48:30   own head [TS]

00:48:31   yes head of steam as it were I think [TS]

00:48:33   Marvel does a great job of saying this [TS]

00:48:35   you know what Brian Michael Bendis is [TS]

00:48:36   your book like you can always tell when [TS]

00:48:37   you're reading brian michael bendis you [TS]

00:48:38   can always tell when you're reading [TS]

00:48:40   Oh God Runaways a distraction or oh yeah [TS]

00:48:44   Brian coupon yeah Brian came on that [TS]

00:48:45   fraction you know anything like that [TS]

00:48:47   MDC feels a little bit more committee as [TS]

00:48:49   it was I mean Gail Simone was the [TS]

00:48:51   glorious exception to that but you know [TS]

00:48:53   it does feel a little bit more by [TS]

00:48:54   committee [TS]

00:48:55   whereas marble gives gives riders a [TS]

00:48:57   little bit more space to be writers and [TS]

00:48:59   I feel like Pixar kind of that with the [TS]

00:49:01   directors about well i would say you [TS]

00:49:03   know I talk about Brad Bird bringing [TS]

00:49:04   incredibles in from the outside I sort [TS]

00:49:06   of feel like the incredibles is more uh [TS]

00:49:10   just you know it's it's different from [TS]

00:49:13   Pixar and just by a few degrees it feels [TS]

00:49:16   a little different its stand it stands [TS]

00:49:18   apart a little bit I idea and I think [TS]

00:49:20   brave i think brave stands apart a [TS]

00:49:22   little bit to it always it doesn't like [TS]

00:49:23   it i'm a break as well but regardless of [TS]

00:49:26   whether you like it or not [TS]

00:49:27   don't you feel like it stands apart a [TS]

00:49:28   little bit in the same way the [TS]

00:49:29   incredibles do like I don't even at a [TS]

00:49:31   distance from maybe from things like [TS]

00:49:33   Wally which seems so exotic but really [TS]

00:49:35   feel like fits into the picture mode but [TS]

00:49:36   then you've got incredible but seems one [TS]

00:49:38   half step removed and brave to me also [TS]

00:49:41   seems a little bit different i agree i [TS]

00:49:42   think brave is a very it's a different [TS]

00:49:44   kind of storytelling in tone and [TS]

00:49:46   attitude and and and and all the rest it [TS]

00:49:49   was it was also i don't wanna get back [TS]

00:49:52   to the technology too much but i think [TS]

00:49:53   it does circle around that is I think [TS]

00:49:55   that's where like brave for me i [TS]

00:49:57   remember seeing when I when I think [TS]

00:49:58   Apple put out a trailer of it or [TS]

00:50:00   something was up shit came up on the [TS]

00:50:02   apple itunes section and they were [TS]

00:50:04   really you know that hair her hair was [TS]

00:50:06   unbelievable and they said they led with [TS]

00:50:09   the hair and we all knew the story but [TS]

00:50:12   the story the hair is part of the story [TS]

00:50:14   that here is actually an element it's [TS]

00:50:16   used in the storytelling so you can't [TS]

00:50:18   even that [TS]

00:50:19   that level you're like they bound up [TS]

00:50:20   this incredible new capability to make [TS]

00:50:22   hair and bear fur and everything else [TS]

00:50:24   with the story they told you know [TS]

00:50:26   there's some there's actually a lot of [TS]

00:50:28   parallels between brave and frozen and [TS]

00:50:29   I've seen frozen approximately 65 times [TS]

00:50:31   because i have a [TS]

00:50:32   three-and-a-half-year-old daughter also [TS]

00:50:34   also the frozen which which by the way [TS]

00:50:38   if you have even a single track and [TS]

00:50:41   Ralph and toy story 2 is that I'm not a [TS]

00:50:43   single actually want some frozen where [TS]

00:50:46   they have put where they force the [TS]

00:50:47   software the ice and the texture there [TS]

00:50:48   is just stunning [TS]

00:50:50   oh my haha like you watch the what you [TS]

00:50:52   watch the light filtering through the [TS]

00:50:54   ice down into the water and then the [TS]

00:50:55   salt salt plunges through and I thought [TS]

00:50:57   oh my god I've never seen that that that [TS]

00:50:59   that then that quality before that that [TS]

00:51:02   play of light and liquid they've managed [TS]

00:51:04   to capture that but now my problems the [TS]

00:51:07   breaker from the storytelling thing but [TS]

00:51:08   i agree that the incredibles is kind of [TS]

00:51:10   it i I've always thought in a class by [TS]

00:51:12   itself [TS]

00:51:13   yeah um that said ratatouille is my [TS]

00:51:15   second favorite Pixar movie and I get [TS]

00:51:17   the feeling i'm in a distinct minority [TS]

00:51:18   on the apple and you know i love [TS]

00:51:21   ratatouille yeah it's my husband's [TS]

00:51:24   favorite movie for actually since and I [TS]

00:51:25   think I didn't mention is really smart [TS]

00:51:27   that cattle mentions in the book he says [TS]

00:51:30   who would make a movie where wet rats [TS]

00:51:33   are making food and not me not me [TS]

00:51:36   that is my favorite see when the rats go [TS]

00:51:38   in the dishwasher they dry out the steam [TS]

00:51:40   room [TS]

00:51:42   no but you know that's a case where they [TS]

00:51:45   fired the director and brought inbred [TS]

00:51:47   bird may change the they change the [TS]

00:51:49   movie of course the movie will get back [TS]

00:51:51   to Pixar in a minute but I want to tell [TS]

00:51:52   you about one of our sponsors for this [TS]

00:51:54   episode it's the good people at [TS]

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00:52:06   I tell you every time i'm looking for a [TS]

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00:52:12   invariably end up at ifixit.com [TS]

00:52:13   excellent step-by-step repair guides [TS]

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00:53:00   need a set of tools you keep getting [TS]

00:53:02   frustrated that you don't have that [TS]

00:53:04   little bit with the pentalobe screw head [TS]

00:53:07   so that you can unscrew an iphone or mac [TS]

00:53:10   laptops crew because apples got this [TS]

00:53:12   devilishly weird screw on it it's in the [TS]

00:53:15   toolkit see so you get the toolkit and [TS]

00:53:17   then you've got all of the stuff you [TS]

00:53:19   need to take the i'm betting a lot of [TS]

00:53:21   uncomfortable listeners are the person [TS]

00:53:23   on their block or in their family that [TS]

00:53:25   everybody comes to with all their [TS]

00:53:26   computer and technology questions help i [TS]

00:53:29   need to fix this thing you got the [TS]

00:53:31   toolkit you've got the tools to do what [TS]

00:53:33   you need to do to get those people back [TS]

00:53:35   in shape its gold standard for [TS]

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00:53:45   you're using the tools that the pros use [TS]

00:53:47   it's got a 54 bit driver kit Philip it's [TS]

00:53:50   those nasty pentalobe it's torx bits [TS]

00:53:52   torque security bits the try wing bit [TS]

00:53:54   the triangle bit [TS]

00:53:55   you're never going to look at something [TS]

00:53:57   to go with GI can't open that I don't [TS]

00:53:59   know what that is and then it's got all [TS]

00:54:00   those other tools to get into cramped [TS]

00:54:02   spaces and computers like spongers is [TS]

00:54:04   the nylon metal plastic all the [TS]

00:54:07   different ways that you can get in the [TS]

00:54:08   cracks and pop these things open in [TS]

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00:54:23   you definitely need to check these guys [TS]

00:54:25   out both for the toolkit and for their [TS]

00:54:27   repair guides here's what you do go to [TS]

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00:54:36   use the coupon code geeky at checkout [TS]

00:54:41   and you'll get ten dollars off your [TS]

00:54:43   order of fifty dollars or more thats i [TS]

00:54:44   fix it [TS]

00:54:45   dot-com / uncomfortable and thank you so [TS]

00:54:48   much do i fix it for sponsoring the [TS]

00:54:50   incomparable well I want to talk about [TS]

00:54:52   it ties into some of this I think is a [TS]

00:54:55   the fact that they try so much why [TS]

00:54:57   there's experimentation is baked into [TS]

00:54:59   their culture because they come from [TS]

00:55:01   that research background and I think [TS]

00:55:02   there's a direct correlation there's a [TS]

00:55:04   reason I mean this book is actually a [TS]

00:55:05   beautifully told story even though it [TS]

00:55:07   gets dry at points i think he diverges [TS]

00:55:09   into things that are sort of business [TS]

00:55:11   your technology is you know very early [TS]

00:55:13   on he talks about how he drew all these [TS]

00:55:15   you know polygons on his hand so you [TS]

00:55:18   create a hand you know the first [TS]

00:55:20   animated hand computer-animated hand and [TS]

00:55:22   it's an extraordinary bit of that he [TS]

00:55:25   wanted to you know hands are the ones [TS]

00:55:26   telling things of the body and in [TS]

00:55:29   paintings in Renaissance times even [TS]

00:55:31   today you pay more to have the hands of [TS]

00:55:33   the painting when your pic commission a [TS]

00:55:35   portrait because there's so much more [TS]

00:55:36   complicated and people can see the [TS]

00:55:38   detail and it was like in Toy Story the [TS]

00:55:40   faces the human faces look so terrible [TS]

00:55:43   compared to the animation of the objects [TS]

00:55:47   because you see that detailed response [TS]

00:55:48   with a different way [TS]

00:55:49   well but I think that spirit of [TS]

00:55:50   experimentation of like the fact that [TS]

00:55:53   they try this stuff outcomes through the [TS]

00:55:54   whole book and that they it's it's baked [TS]

00:55:56   in and the bid i wanted to talk about [TS]

00:55:58   relationships i think is the risks and [TS]

00:55:59   things they try with the short films [TS]

00:56:01   beforehand which they did almost as I [TS]

00:56:04   mean he talks about the book that it [TS]

00:56:05   wasn't like an intent we're always gonna [TS]

00:56:06   do it but that it became away they [TS]

00:56:08   thought it would have a purpose and [TS]

00:56:10   enter not have the purpose and they [TS]

00:56:11   thought they could do something else [TS]

00:56:12   with that and they finally said it's [TS]

00:56:14   just a way to make a short really good [TS]

00:56:15   film that is part of the charm of what [TS]

00:56:18   we do and we're just going to do it [TS]

00:56:19   because people like them even though we [TS]

00:56:21   have to spend a few million dollars on [TS]

00:56:22   them and I think that was kind of a [TS]

00:56:24   lovely thing that that's part of what [TS]

00:56:25   they're doing at the profit is they are [TS]

00:56:27   literally throwing it away maybe brings [TS]

00:56:29   more people and because as part of the [TS]

00:56:30   package of charm and maybe increases the [TS]

00:56:33   prophets overall but that they feel that [TS]

00:56:34   it's an important part of what they've [TS]

00:56:36   become [TS]

00:56:37   they do this for the audience and and [TS]

00:56:39   maybe it's only for the audience that [TS]

00:56:41   they spend that money that's part of [TS]

00:56:42   what their us the kickback from coming [TS]

00:56:44   to see pixar film yeah always been [TS]

00:56:46   present at the shorts were away from to [TS]

00:56:47   work out technical troubles where you [TS]

00:56:49   could like they have that one shorts [TS]

00:56:51   that she dancing around until he gets [TS]

00:56:53   here yeah I thought he says [TS]

00:56:55   man its fate that another special unit [TS]

00:56:57   when he said we thought they would be [TS]

00:56:59   and then they didn't he's like well then [TS]

00:57:00   we thought it'd be a good way to train [TS]

00:57:01   directors but turns out of 5 minute [TS]

00:57:02   movie is really not a good way to test [TS]

00:57:04   out someone if they get a fully foot [TS]

00:57:06   I mean I feel like that's part of the [TS]

00:57:07   discarding is that they that they said [TS]

00:57:09   you know what we wanted to be all these [TS]

00:57:11   things and it wasn't any of those things [TS]

00:57:12   so it's just a thing we did an [TS]

00:57:14   unfortunate expired it is awesome and I [TS]

00:57:16   also think that part of my question is [TS]

00:57:17   how much of this book I don't doubt that [TS]

00:57:19   he's coming from a place of deep [TS]

00:57:21   emotional and intellectual integrity a [TS]

00:57:23   lot of time but i also have to wonder [TS]

00:57:25   how much of them is this is also he's [TS]

00:57:27   crafting the this is also a work of [TS]

00:57:30   image crafting for Pixar because let's [TS]

00:57:31   face it this is a CEO of any other [TS]

00:57:34   company that is not in the business as [TS]

00:57:36   exciting and glamorous and sexy as pixar [TS]

00:57:39   yeah if it were CEO of somebody who was [TS]

00:57:42   say handling point-to-point shipping and [TS]

00:57:44   logistics would we be as excited about [TS]

00:57:46   his insights with creativity was like we [TS]

00:57:48   found this really great way for [TS]

00:57:49   computers to talk to each other and then [TS]

00:57:51   we found a way to give our drivers [TS]

00:57:52   ownership of the process you know so [TS]

00:57:55   there's part of me that thinks this book [TS]

00:57:56   is also a very good exercise and [TS]

00:57:57   publicity and so part of me was reading [TS]

00:58:00   this also with a thought [TS]

00:58:01   how much of this is is is officially [TS]

00:58:04   crafted message and how much of this is [TS]

00:58:05   is is him being well cancer you know I [TS]

00:58:08   that I can't help but wonder if there's [TS]

00:58:10   a certain degree of discretion that goes [TS]

00:58:11   in the Records books as well to make [TS]

00:58:13   sure that the company doesn't take a [TS]

00:58:15   reputational hit or people who had ideas [TS]

00:58:17   that didn't pan out don't take [TS]

00:58:19   rotational hits would be horrible this [TS]

00:58:21   was all a really well-crafted lie and [TS]

00:58:24   it's actually a horrible [TS]

00:58:25   teraflex to work the roads in fear you [TS]

00:58:28   have to ask yourself how many different [TS]

00:58:30   modems are there and and how what what [TS]

00:58:32   is that what is that what is the [TS]

00:58:33   motivation for everything that goes into [TS]

00:58:35   it and I don't doubt that most of the [TS]

00:58:36   motivation is a hundred percent the [TS]

00:58:38   genuine desire to share information [TS]

00:58:39   because it makes the world a better [TS]

00:58:40   place like you can tell this will bring [TS]

00:58:42   on [TS]

00:58:42   yeah you can tell this guy walks the [TS]

00:58:44   walk in terms of you know more [TS]

00:58:45   information is better iterative [TS]

00:58:46   processes are great here's how to be [TS]

00:58:48   mindful of yours had observed like you [TS]

00:58:49   can tell the stuff he genuinely believes [TS]

00:58:50   and when he slips into social policy [TS]

00:58:53   which I found fascinating by the way you [TS]

00:58:55   can also tell that he believes very [TS]

00:58:56   strongly those convictions to but i also [TS]

00:58:58   wonder how much of this is the fact that [TS]

00:59:00   he is a don't position of leadership at [TS]

00:59:04   a big company and part of being a [TS]

00:59:05   position of leadership at a big company [TS]

00:59:07   is saying [TS]

00:59:08   I am the public face for this company [TS]

00:59:09   how do i want this company to be [TS]

00:59:11   perceived by the rest of the world only [TS]

00:59:13   the cynical but i think part of it is [TS]

00:59:15   there is an external validation of what [TS]

00:59:17   he says in that he didn't have too many [TS]

00:59:18   the failures when you read business [TS]

00:59:20   books that are totally motivational in [TS]

00:59:22   our Rob corporate biography things that [TS]

00:59:24   are ghostwritten or if the written [TS]

00:59:25   partly by the CEO or or something like [TS]

00:59:28   that they the failures are always [TS]

00:59:30   brushed off and the successes are [TS]

00:59:32   emphasized strength-to-strength things [TS]

00:59:33   we have this little setback but then [TS]

00:59:35   that came and the fact that he focuses [TS]

00:59:37   again and again and again this [TS]

00:59:39   ok so we have the answer was this and I [TS]

00:59:41   was totally wrong like that is what [TS]

00:59:43   makes maybe that's a even more double [TS]

00:59:45   creative technique to get us to believe [TS]

00:59:47   him or maybe we take him nobody [TS]

00:59:49   seriously wants you to believe glad I [TS]

00:59:51   wouldn't but I don't know you could say [TS]

00:59:52   the fact that he's so candid about what [TS]

00:59:54   seems to be the failures even though [TS]

00:59:55   he's representing this series of [TS]

00:59:56   successes now they come out of it in the [TS]

00:59:58   process is so wonderful [TS]

00:59:58   process is so wonderful [TS]

01:00:00   even as they break it apart that is [TS]

01:00:01   actually part of the propaganda part is [TS]

01:00:03   that he is he brings up the failure so [TS]

01:00:06   your mother for ya [TS]

01:00:07   the failures also burns the image in [TS]

01:00:09   some sense to you by saying look we took [TS]

01:00:11   these photos we made it better and that [TS]

01:00:14   is actually a really nifty managerial [TS]

01:00:16   sleight-of-hand this because how many [TS]

01:00:17   other companies do you know that turn [TS]

01:00:18   their failures into a point of pride or [TS]

01:00:20   selling point with you know our product [TS]

01:00:22   is good because we have been risky and [TS]

01:00:25   spend and bold enough to fail several [TS]

01:00:27   times and to learn from that like is [TS]

01:00:28   that something that you can see all the [TS]

01:00:29   time and other companies are deep or do [TS]

01:00:31   you see as one says a lot of companies [TS]

01:00:33   that tell their ability to go from [TS]

01:00:34   strength to strength to strength to [TS]

01:00:35   strength [TS]

01:00:36   hey I didn't get that message from this [TS]

01:00:37   book like I i read it as a sort of an [TS]

01:00:39   anti-business book because you're right [TS]

01:00:40   that other business books and you know [TS]

01:00:42   it's a lie here was a failure and here [TS]

01:00:43   is our eventual victory but if taken as [TS]

01:00:45   a whole I i see it as a much more honest [TS]

01:00:48   assessment because it's like we tried [TS]

01:00:50   this and it failed and he came with his [TS]

01:00:51   better thing and then you think all [TS]

01:00:53   right well that's the story [TS]

01:00:54   no actually that failed to and then we [TS]

01:00:56   tried this and like and is a series of [TS]

01:00:58   those and by the end of a series of [TS]

01:00:59   those you realize that whatever they end [TS]

01:01:01   on whether its success or failure [TS]

01:01:03   it's merely just another point in the [TS]

01:01:05   sine wave of success and failure and [TS]

01:01:08   that this is not the final success [TS]

01:01:10   because this will inevitably turn out to [TS]

01:01:12   be the wrong thing as well later and if [TS]

01:01:14   you feel like if the book had continued [TS]

01:01:16   for another 10 years that everything [TS]

01:01:18   you've seen as accessible eventually [TS]

01:01:20   become a failure and success and failure [TS]

01:01:22   and success and I think it does a good [TS]

01:01:23   job of laying that out and it's not [TS]

01:01:25   trying to construct a narrative or an [TS]

01:01:27   arc in which the failures are are are [TS]

01:01:30   held up held aloft to see how great we [TS]

01:01:32   are first we have to set back but then [TS]

01:01:33   we succeeded but to establish a pattern [TS]

01:01:35   and the pattern is that you're not going [TS]

01:01:38   to get it right you're going to think [TS]

01:01:39   you have a right and you're going to be [TS]

01:01:40   wrong and he let me demonstrate this [TS]

01:01:41   until you understand that there is this [TS]

01:01:43   no happy ending to this book there's no [TS]

01:01:45   and that's how we made pics are great [TS]

01:01:47   company that it is today [TS]

01:01:48   that's never going to happen in the book [TS]

01:01:50   and it's very difficult to get through [TS]

01:01:51   because as you start reading the book [TS]

01:01:53   you're like oh this is the story of [TS]

01:01:54   pixar was struggling and then it [TS]

01:01:56   succeeded and there is a little bit of [TS]

01:01:57   that but the I think the undercurrent is [TS]

01:02:00   don't get fooled by that everything that [TS]

01:02:03   we thought we had right we eventually [TS]

01:02:04   had wrong and that's going to be true of [TS]

01:02:06   everything that we think we have right [TS]

01:02:07   right now as well and I think that is [TS]

01:02:09   the overall message of the book which is [TS]

01:02:10   not a message of hope and [TS]

01:02:12   definitely i say it's like the antique [TS]

01:02:14   business book it is not an uplifting [TS]

01:02:16   story a story of triumph you know that's [TS]

01:02:18   mixed in there but like the message that [TS]

01:02:20   i take home from it and because he tries [TS]

01:02:21   so hard he reiterates over and over [TS]

01:02:23   again to try to convince people to not [TS]

01:02:25   to not fall into that trap to not think [TS]

01:02:27   they haven't figured out and do not [TS]

01:02:28   think that he has it figured out and he [TS]

01:02:30   has to convince himself that he doesn't [TS]

01:02:31   have it figured out and that's what i [TS]

01:02:33   think is so is so it refreshing about [TS]

01:02:35   this book as compared to every other [TS]

01:02:36   business book I've read a lot of them [TS]

01:02:38   what it's like in in a typical business [TS]

01:02:40   book you'd hear story about how toy [TS]

01:02:42   story 2 collapsed and they redid the [TS]

01:02:44   whole thing in under eight months and [TS]

01:02:45   you know and we're never gonna do that [TS]

01:02:47   again and then the implied message after [TS]

01:02:49   it would be but we totally could do it [TS]

01:02:52   again [TS]

01:02:52   where's the implied message i got from [TS]

01:02:54   this was there is no way in hell we're [TS]

01:02:56   ever gonna do that again and we're gonna [TS]

01:02:58   do all these things to make sure that [TS]

01:02:59   never happens again [TS]

01:03:01   here's how we did that and we're gonna [TS]

01:03:02   ever into something else that is equally [TS]

01:03:04   disastrous that we haven't even figured [TS]

01:03:05   out yet and actually if you keep reading [TS]

01:03:07   the book you'll see we have a similar [TS]

01:03:08   even worse disaster which we can't even [TS]

01:03:10   really see a movie at all and we spend [TS]

01:03:11   millions of dollars on it so it doesn't [TS]

01:03:13   even matter that we didn't do that [TS]

01:03:14   mistake again because another mistake is [TS]

01:03:16   waiting and the whole idea is to build a [TS]

01:03:17   system that understands this is going to [TS]

01:03:19   happen what I really straight there was [TS]

01:03:22   the story about how they someone entered [TS]

01:03:25   the wrong command at all and they [TS]

01:03:27   deliberately deleted so much of the [TS]

01:03:28   movie and the only reason it was saved [TS]

01:03:30   as because you had a woman who had just [TS]

01:03:32   had a baby so she had she's like I I've [TS]

01:03:34   been back at the movie on the slide home [TS]

01:03:36   so I can work on and I think I might [TS]

01:03:37   have a copy and print I thought I I [TS]

01:03:40   guess don't land i thought let here for [TS]

01:03:42   flexible workplaces like that no you [TS]

01:03:44   have to let you know when they actually [TS]

01:03:46   had like an IT group like figure out a [TS]

01:03:48   way to sync the all the data files to [TS]

01:03:50   her system but Jesus but here's the [TS]

01:03:52   thing i want to ask you since we're all [TS]

01:03:53   parents on this podcast how low in your [TS]

01:03:57   feet that your heart sink the baby in [TS]

01:04:00   the car and I was like I read that and i [TS]

01:04:02   I just I almost fell over I mean I've [TS]

01:04:05   heard i think is it the the Washington [TS]

01:04:08   Post writer gene Weingarten disney story [TS]

01:04:10   horrible if you want something with now [TS]

01:04:12   that you know its don't read that story [TS]

01:04:13   if you haven't already [TS]

01:04:14   not really because it will haunt you for [TS]

01:04:15   the rest your life it's just terrible [TS]

01:04:16   but the baby the baby because they are [TS]

01:04:18   working in and McCartney and that's [TS]

01:04:20   where it's not a business book raise [TS]

01:04:22   cattle says we almost killed a baby [TS]

01:04:24   because we may [TS]

01:04:25   our people work so our child because too [TS]

01:04:27   many people work so hard that the [TS]

01:04:28   engineer was supposed to drop he's been [TS]

01:04:30   sleepless working for weeks on end [TS]

01:04:32   supposed to drop this kid off a [TS]

01:04:33   childcare leaves in the car for three [TS]

01:04:35   hours in the hot parking lot is fine you [TS]

01:04:37   know in the locality was finally with [TS]

01:04:39   rehydrated like okay we don't know all [TS]

01:04:41   the details the screen is all i need to [TS]

01:04:42   know but I mean I i love you know this [TS]

01:04:44   is what what i thought was striking [TS]

01:04:46   about that he bounces from that [TS]

01:04:47   immediately into and this is why [TS]

01:04:48   work-life balance is important and this [TS]

01:04:50   is why we have to give leave two working [TS]

01:04:51   parents and he actually returns to that [TS]

01:04:54   a couple times the book he makes the [TS]

01:04:55   point of thing we're very proud of the [TS]

01:04:57   couples have got together as a result of [TS]

01:04:58   pics are proud of the kids we don't have [TS]

01:05:00   a daycare center that is affiliated with [TS]

01:05:01   Pixar and what I found interesting [TS]

01:05:03   because i did a search for this [TS]

01:05:04   yesterday at a curiosity because there [TS]

01:05:07   are plenty of you know explainer type [TS]

01:05:08   pieces the six lessons you need to learn [TS]

01:05:10   from the book and so on and so forth and [TS]

01:05:12   I thought how could nobody has picked up [TS]

01:05:13   on the fact that this guy who works in a [TS]

01:05:16   really time intensive industry because [TS]

01:05:19   he talks about how it takes 22,000 [TS]

01:05:21   people weeks to make a movie but but [TS]

01:05:23   this but this guy is still saying hey we [TS]

01:05:26   need really seen work-life balance and [TS]

01:05:28   we need paid parental leave for [TS]

01:05:29   everybody because it makes for better [TS]

01:05:30   workforce and I thought it was really [TS]

01:05:31   striking that almost everybody is [TS]

01:05:33   ignored that passage in the book when [TS]

01:05:35   this is actually been a big national [TS]

01:05:37   conversation this year about you know [TS]

01:05:39   how the u.s. is one of three countries [TS]

01:05:40   noble that any work whatsoever and [TS]

01:05:42   there's plenty of studies that talk [TS]

01:05:44   about how it's affecting the american [TS]

01:05:45   workforce american life and cattle just [TS]

01:05:48   kind of sneaks it on there and they're [TS]

01:05:49   saying look we almost had a crisis [TS]

01:05:51   happens forces to reassess this is what [TS]

01:05:53   I believe he did that company goes [TS]

01:05:56   through the same exact failures everyone [TS]

01:05:57   else like that the part besides the baby [TS]

01:05:59   part which is striking itself as a [TS]

01:06:00   single as a single you know presumably [TS]

01:06:02   rare like this doesn't happen no you [TS]

01:06:04   know 1,000,000 type thing but also [TS]

01:06:06   terrible at is the statistic that i've [TS]

01:06:09   i've had the passage highlighted by [TS]

01:06:10   don't have it now but like some huge [TS]

01:06:11   percentage of their worst for workforce [TS]

01:06:13   was suffering from repetitive strange [TS]

01:06:15   one third day in what did end of the [TS]

01:06:18   giant crush and so essentially looked at [TS]

01:06:20   one perspective it's the elites in this [TS]

01:06:22   organization which do nothing except [TS]

01:06:24   push paper all day person virtual paper [TS]

01:06:25   and decide destroyed the health and [TS]

01:06:28   lives of a huge number of other people [TS]

01:06:30   as as a way to to achieve the goals of [TS]

01:06:34   the company and that is the typical cap [TS]

01:06:36   evil capitalist like I don't care about [TS]

01:06:37   the workers we have [TS]

01:06:38   old we're gonna get it done where the [TS]

01:06:40   elite say we celebrated and their [TS]

01:06:41   reaction to it is what differentiates [TS]

01:06:43   them that that happens the company's all [TS]

01:06:45   the time workers are exploited managers [TS]

01:06:47   need to get something done they lean on [TS]

01:06:49   the people below them they direct [TS]

01:06:50   people's lives you know their personal [TS]

01:06:52   lives their health everything about them [TS]

01:06:54   the difference is their reaction to that [TS]

01:06:55   wasn't now I guess the system worked and [TS]

01:06:57   you look at million points out this [TS]

01:06:59   company's I think he's probably talking [TS]

01:07:00   about EA he didn't name any names like [TS]

01:07:01   this there's those companies that say [TS]

01:07:04   that they just have like you know [TS]

01:07:06   fifteen percent turnover because they [TS]

01:07:08   say well you get great work if you hire [TS]

01:07:09   these energetic people at school and [TS]

01:07:11   then grind them into dust and then they [TS]

01:07:12   burn out you just get another new crop [TS]

01:07:14   of people and and from their perspective [TS]

01:07:16   like that's a winning strategy but what [TS]

01:07:19   cattle says is that that seems that [TS]

01:07:21   actually on paper and in reality that is [TS]

01:07:23   an effective strategy but he says it's [TS]

01:07:25   immoral and he so he has a moral [TS]

01:07:27   objection to what is an effective [TS]

01:07:29   strategy you know if you just you just [TS]

01:07:31   like Machiavellian or like you know I'm [TS]

01:07:34   a power broker I'm Jack well trying to [TS]

01:07:36   get things done on your business book [TS]

01:07:38   open every says yes that is effective [TS]

01:07:40   and we actually did that but we said no [TS]

01:07:42   to it not because it didn't get the job [TS]

01:07:44   done but hey look we made a great move [TS]

01:07:45   got it because it's immoral and it's [TS]

01:07:47   like such a simple thing you said he [TS]

01:07:48   just came out and set in case you're [TS]

01:07:50   missing this people we're not gonna do [TS]

01:07:51   this to our workers because it's immoral [TS]

01:07:53   the games industry and this is outside [TS]

01:07:55   of my room because I'm not a serious [TS]

01:07:56   gamer as you know but the games industry [TS]

01:07:58   I mean you know Pixar's written in the [TS]

01:08:00   Disney division are are related most of [TS]

01:08:02   the film industry but they work sort of [TS]

01:08:04   fundamentally differently in the rest of [TS]

01:08:06   the film industry is not making [TS]

01:08:07   animation with their closer to is the [TS]

01:08:09   games industry where they're doing stuff [TS]

01:08:10   that is telling a story and doing [TS]

01:08:11   animation and it's it's a different [TS]

01:08:13   software and software driven and they're [TS]

01:08:15   always pushing on the edge blah blah and [TS]

01:08:17   you and I've never heard it all these [TS]

01:08:19   Triple A game companies every story i [TS]

01:08:21   hear every time I interview someone is [TS]

01:08:23   the games industry or read the articles [TS]

01:08:24   they are grinding machines as you say [TS]

01:08:26   like Electronic Arts is it lawsuits [TS]

01:08:28   about it and marriages break up and [TS]

01:08:30   everything's you know horrible but [TS]

01:08:32   they're the closest competitor [TS]

01:08:34   competition it seems that competition [TS]

01:08:35   whether the closest analog and they [TS]

01:08:37   produce they put huge amounts of money [TS]

01:08:39   in and they produce sometimes games that [TS]

01:08:41   make a bazillion dollars and hundreds of [TS]

01:08:43   millions of dollars and sometimes they [TS]

01:08:44   really stuff that's utter crap and fails [TS]

01:08:47   like a movie studio [TS]

01:08:48   I mentioned for the engineering approach [TS]

01:08:51   to creative work and how Pixar is like [TS]

01:08:53   I'm not the only engineer on this on [TS]

01:08:55   this podcast i put I I faked being an [TS]

01:08:58   engineer so yes you are well I'd be like [TS]

01:08:59   if you are if you are a computer [TS]

01:09:01   programmer or in computer science or in [TS]

01:09:04   any of these rooms and probably also if [TS]

01:09:05   you're a scientist although i can't [TS]

01:09:06   relate to that you you can relate to and [TS]

01:09:09   cattle in this book reads like something [TS]

01:09:14   that you recognize like a lot of the [TS]

01:09:15   personality traits that come through and [TS]

01:09:17   camel in this book and the things that [TS]

01:09:18   I've seen him in our personality traits [TS]

01:09:20   that i share that are usually a [TS]

01:09:23   liability in normal life and the [TS]

01:09:26   refreshing thing about reading this book [TS]

01:09:27   is I think engineers and programmers and [TS]

01:09:31   scientists will recognize themselves [TS]

01:09:33   themselves and their personality traits [TS]

01:09:34   in a cattle and we'll we'll find it as i [TS]

01:09:37   did exciting and refreshing to see that [TS]

01:09:41   those those traits are can be both [TS]

01:09:44   useful and successful in real life [TS]

01:09:46   because in most of our lives they have [TS]

01:09:47   not been if you're useful successful to [TS]

01:09:50   that degree and part of that is the the [TS]

01:09:52   engineering approach of saying I'm going [TS]

01:09:55   to analyze the situation i'm going to [TS]

01:09:57   figure out what needs to be done and I'm [TS]

01:09:58   but you know you mentioned the Eagle [TS]

01:10:00   listen s before that's a scientific type [TS]

01:10:01   of approach who cares who ideas idea was [TS]

01:10:03   to test the idea of it doesn't work you [TS]

01:10:05   move on and early very early [TS]

01:10:07   conversation with Lisa talk about camels [TS]

01:10:09   objection to the idea that you're [TS]

01:10:11   discovering a movie and chipping away [TS]

01:10:12   and the movie is hiding underneath the [TS]

01:10:14   bottom and cat mole in typical [TS]

01:10:16   programmer engineering science fashion [TS]

01:10:17   saying that's not the case at all [TS]

01:10:19   actually like it's not their innate [TS]

01:10:20   you're actually making it whatever but [TS]

01:10:21   then this is the whole thing about this [TS]

01:10:23   type of this engineering approach is [TS]

01:10:25   alright so you can analyze and so that's [TS]

01:10:27   a stupid analogy it's not actually how [TS]

01:10:28   things are done [TS]

01:10:29   ah it's not accurate but and cattle [TS]

01:10:32   accepts that this analogy helps people [TS]

01:10:35   to produce good work and then he goes on [TS]

01:10:38   and one chapter in the book to detail [TS]

01:10:40   all the other things which are also not [TS]

01:10:42   accurate the people tell themselves to [TS]

01:10:44   help them do good work all peoples [TS]

01:10:45   different analogies I think of it like [TS]

01:10:46   climbing a mountain or I think of [TS]

01:10:48   running one tail to the other and all [TS]

01:10:50   these different things which are not [TS]

01:10:51   really the process as far as the [TS]

01:10:53   Capitals concern but part of the process [TS]

01:10:55   of having an engineer's approach the [TS]

01:10:56   creative work is to say it doesn't [TS]

01:10:58   matter that that's not accurate because [TS]

01:11:00   in the end you're trying to just get [TS]

01:11:01   good work [TS]

01:11:02   David help some people get good work you [TS]

01:11:03   have to put that as a tool in your tool [TS]

01:11:05   chests and say this is one way you know [TS]

01:11:07   it did not get hung up on the first to [TS]

01:11:09   reorder like oh that's actually not not [TS]

01:11:11   the correct approach and we can test [TS]

01:11:12   that she really hear all the reasons why [TS]

01:11:14   that is not actually how we make movies [TS]

01:11:16   but if thinking that helps you make a [TS]

01:11:17   good movie that needs to be to my tool [TS]

01:11:19   chest to say go ahead person who doesn't [TS]

01:11:21   understand the reality of the world use [TS]

01:11:23   this model mental model to help you do [TS]

01:11:26   great work and that's that's the genius [TS]

01:11:28   of a Catalan of this book is that it is [TS]

01:11:30   it never gives up on the idea that uh [TS]

01:11:34   thinking about things [TS]

01:11:36   testing them in evaluating the results [TS]

01:11:37   is the path to success in all endeavors [TS]

01:11:39   and you never stop doing that even if [TS]

01:11:42   you've determined that you know for [TS]

01:11:43   example someone's analogy is in apt [TS]

01:11:45   inaccurate that analogy may still have a [TS]

01:11:47   use you may just need to test it [TS]

01:11:48   differently [TS]

01:11:49   it did really bug me that he kept going [TS]

01:11:50   back to the there's not a there's not a [TS]

01:11:53   sculpture in that block of marble [TS]

01:11:54   well i think that's that's part of the [TS]

01:11:56   personality traits like it's gotta know [TS]

01:11:58   him because it's not accurate but like [TS]

01:11:59   but he is but he was not blinded by that [TS]

01:12:01   he saw that helps these people it here [TS]

01:12:03   look at and that's like that's why i [TS]

01:12:04   love the whole chapter look at all these [TS]

01:12:06   things these people think that helped [TS]

01:12:07   them get their work done all but you're [TS]

01:12:08   ridiculous and foolish from you know we [TS]

01:12:10   all know Here I see it but but it helps [TS]

01:12:12   them get their work done and that's why [TS]

01:12:13   I think these are important tools [TS]

01:12:15   yes the homeopathic school of filmmaking [TS]

01:12:18   it's like I don't believe it but it [TS]

01:12:19   still works well but itself hacking like [TS]

01:12:22   it these individuals are sort of hacking [TS]

01:12:24   their own brains in a way that works for [TS]

01:12:25   them it was the way that doesn't work [TS]

01:12:27   with that capital and maybe isn't [TS]

01:12:29   accurate reflection of a reality but [TS]

01:12:31   that's the whole thing about people [TS]

01:12:32   management somebody goes into my new [TS]

01:12:34   challenge will be figuring out how to [TS]

01:12:35   manage people and make this company and [TS]

01:12:36   that is an amazing challenges anyone [TS]

01:12:38   who's a parent knows trying to figure [TS]

01:12:40   out what the heck is going on in the [TS]

01:12:41   mind of someone else and heard them to [TS]

01:12:43   be successful even when they are so [TS]

01:12:45   unlike you and so unknowable and that is [TS]

01:12:48   that is like the ultimate challenge [TS]

01:12:49   after he's you know doll that the [TS]

01:12:51   scientific stuff and the the engineering [TS]

01:12:53   stuff which is sort of glossed over yeah [TS]

01:12:55   I invented texture-mapping whatever big [TS]

01:12:56   work that was when I was a kid anyway [TS]

01:12:58   try to manage people on their own [TS]

01:13:00   yeah that's the thing i love how casual [TS]

01:13:03   hears about the fact that yeah I only I [TS]

01:13:04   only revolutionized reading rendering [TS]

01:13:07   big deal I mean it's almost like he [TS]

01:13:09   didn't want to talk about is like that's [TS]

01:13:10   technically it's boring you wouldn't be [TS]

01:13:11   interested in it over [TS]

01:13:12   alignment obviously i'm reading like no [TS]

01:13:14   please write an entire book about that [TS]

01:13:15   he was for it's probably the right call [TS]

01:13:17   because most persuasive was like oh yeah [TS]

01:13:23   retweet / that one second have that [TS]

01:13:24   pulled out in the book to the fact that [TS]

01:13:26   the program he went to the kind of fishy [TS]

01:13:28   of Utah was ridiculous it was who came [TS]

01:13:32   as Alan Kay it was um who was the border [TS]

01:13:35   people instrumental today's Warnock John [TS]

01:13:37   Warnock of adobe John Warnock in what [TS]

01:13:40   was the other one just a link in a Jim [TS]

01:13:42   Clark I'm sorry said jim cotton jim [TS]

01:13:43   cotton jim clark yeah and you're like [TS]

01:13:45   yeah Jim Clark it out more knock [TS]

01:13:47   allocate like these are the fat and EDD [TS]

01:13:49   Connolly's the foundational people of [TS]

01:13:52   the of like every aspect around graphics [TS]

01:13:55   2d and 3d graphics representation of the [TS]

01:13:58   computers like this that without those [TS]

01:14:01   four people you could argue with them as [TS]

01:14:03   impotence because they're all sort of [TS]

01:14:05   business people even though they were [TS]

01:14:07   scientists computer scientist named [TS]

01:14:09   Warnock certainly wasn't k was at some [TS]

01:14:11   level I mean he was practically a [TS]

01:14:13   certain way but without those four [TS]

01:14:15   people i think we the same stuff they [TS]

01:14:18   that happen might have been 10 or 15 [TS]

01:14:20   years later it feels like what capital [TS]

01:14:22   would say is that the same stuff what [TS]

01:14:23   happened in the same time frame it just [TS]

01:14:25   would have been different people because [TS]

01:14:26   a large part of success that you [TS]

01:14:27   attribute to the the magic of the [TS]

01:14:29   individuals actually attributable to [TS]

01:14:30   lock in it's a mistake to believe that [TS]

01:14:32   that he only could have been done by [TS]

01:14:34   those people I generally believe that [TS]

01:14:36   with certain individuals they catalyze [TS]

01:14:38   things in a way that you could see how [TS]

01:14:40   there was nothing else going on the [TS]

01:14:42   field the guy they're studying with I [TS]

01:14:43   mean sutherland ivan sutherland was a [TS]

01:14:46   genius as well I mean just it was a [TS]

01:14:48   crazy group of people too crazy group [TS]

01:14:49   things that came out of it and I believe [TS]

01:14:50   it would have been replicated but not as [TS]

01:14:52   quickly so I manager at that point does [TS]

01:14:54   bring up in the book again being the [TS]

01:14:56   anti-business book that the typical [TS]

01:14:57   business book is I have been massively [TS]

01:15:00   successful therefore everything I've [TS]

01:15:01   done in my life must have led to success [TS]

01:15:03   if so facto and now i'm going to [TS]

01:15:04   describe what I had for breakfast [TS]

01:15:05   because it is an integral part of my [TS]

01:15:07   success right and cattle does not [TS]

01:15:09   believe his the height does not believe [TS]

01:15:11   his own hype is not believe it like is [TS]

01:15:13   so aware that just because that's what [TS]

01:15:16   happened doesn't mean that's the only [TS]

01:15:18   way this could have happened and maybe [TS]

01:15:19   entirely unrelated and in fact the whole [TS]

01:15:21   success I problem things may have been [TS]

01:15:23   stopping you you know [TS]

01:15:24   I don't maybe going to die I think he's [TS]

01:15:26   just going to dissolve into a pure cloud [TS]

01:15:28   of Eagle list of eagles discovery you [TS]

01:15:31   know you like some benign cognitive [TS]

01:15:33   entity that hovers over gonna make a [TS]

01:15:35   stark alien you know if you can detect [TS]

01:15:37   if you can detect any of his ego in the [TS]

01:15:38   book i would say the place i detected is [TS]

01:15:40   he never did get to the part where he [TS]

01:15:42   describes the failures of the movies [TS]

01:15:45   that Pixar has released what aspects of [TS]

01:15:47   cars were not satisfactory what aspects [TS]

01:15:50   event you know me and he never goes for [TS]

01:15:52   that one and it could be that he doesn't [TS]

01:15:53   see any failures there but I was waiting [TS]

01:15:56   for the moment where he discusses we [TS]

01:15:58   release this one it's not as good as [TS]

01:15:59   some of the other ones releasing here's [TS]

01:16:01   why and here's what happened [TS]

01:16:02   well i think that there's a protection [TS]

01:16:04   throughout you see it he won't name the [TS]

01:16:06   names of the directors to get fired [TS]

01:16:08   right i think there's a pretty level of [TS]

01:16:11   protection where there are things that [TS]

01:16:12   are not discussed able to be discussed [TS]

01:16:14   and I suspected that is part of it is [TS]

01:16:17   for him to come and then be seen [TS]

01:16:19   criticizing specific things in his [TS]

01:16:21   company's released movies is not [TS]

01:16:23   something he's willing to do well if [TS]

01:16:25   he's responsible he's willing to [TS]

01:16:26   criticize himself but like the can't the [TS]

01:16:28   candor that he talks about has to exist [TS]

01:16:30   within pixar the camera doesn't have [TS]

01:16:32   doesn't have to exist external to Pixar [TS]

01:16:34   so it is a balancing act [TS]

01:16:35   you know what I mean hehe edges up to it [TS]

01:16:37   the edges up to what he's talking about [TS]

01:16:39   up when he says you know after they went [TS]

01:16:41   through several variations they had an [TS]

01:16:43   explanation as to why Charles months was [TS]

01:16:44   so you know he was I mean he was a grown [TS]

01:16:48   man when Karl was a child and yet [TS]

01:16:50   they're roughly the same age later yeah [TS]

01:16:52   and yet you know he's still active and [TS]

01:16:54   any and he says but you know nobody [TS]

01:16:57   noticed that nobody noticed anyone if [TS]

01:17:00   they noticed they didn't care i'm and i [TS]

01:17:02   have to say that's the only thing in the [TS]

01:17:03   book where he went [TS]

01:17:04   now I noticed and we came up with an [TS]

01:17:06   alternate reason why that worked and you [TS]

01:17:10   know the kids thought hey that's [TS]

01:17:11   actually better than the movie because [TS]

01:17:12   it you know and it wouldn't have taken [TS]

01:17:14   that much to do but they noticed that [TS]

01:17:17   logic problem and the reason they [TS]

01:17:19   noticed was because that was the first [TS]

01:17:21   Pixar movie they had seen where there [TS]

01:17:23   was a logic problem as I think was a the [TS]

01:17:26   Lewis Carroll actually say it or is it [TS]

01:17:28   the computer to him that it's like [TS]

01:17:29   nonsense has to be rigidly internally [TS]

01:17:31   consistent or you notice it [TS]

01:17:33   yeah and there's not nonsense but it's [TS]

01:17:34   like when you tell a story the [TS]

01:17:36   University creative it's not [TS]

01:17:37   originally internally consistent no [TS]

01:17:39   matter how fantastic it is you will [TS]

01:17:41   notice the the things that stand out you [TS]

01:17:43   know Lewis Carroll's granddaughter once [TS]

01:17:44   sold dilemma used car lot to its engine [TS]

01:17:49   made this as Tweedledee Tweedledum [TS]

01:17:51   Tweedledee Tweedledum my dream learning [TS]

01:17:53   right there dream living dream [TS]

01:17:56   glittering oh dear God dream Glendinning [TS]

01:18:00   anything we should we should talk about [TS]

01:18:02   before before I wrap it up i just wanted [TS]

01:18:04   this is my last this is the last call he [TS]

01:18:07   have to work the afterward I cried like [TS]

01:18:10   a baby reading that chapter was not [TS]

01:18:11   expecting it i started reading at the oh [TS]

01:18:13   well that's good he hasn't remembrance [TS]

01:18:15   of them steve jobs and steve jobs i was [TS]

01:18:18   ball was it was reading it 1145 at night [TS]

01:18:21   about to go to bed was gonna put the [TS]

01:18:22   book down i read the whole last part and [TS]

01:18:25   was just how to use up being a box of [TS]

01:18:26   Kleenex I expected it to be one of those [TS]

01:18:29   things where somebody's somebody says [TS]

01:18:31   come on you gotta talk about Steve Jobs [TS]

01:18:33   was like alright I'll dad something off [TS]

01:18:34   there just to just to give you and [TS]

01:18:36   instead it's like a man who knew this [TS]

01:18:38   guy for a long time and is and is [TS]

01:18:41   infuriated about how terribly and in [TS]

01:18:45   accurately he is portrayed in the media [TS]

01:18:47   and he's going to get his shots in he's [TS]

01:18:50   going to say look this is the guy I knew [TS]

01:18:52   and these are all the ways that he is [TS]

01:18:54   he's miss characterized and you don't [TS]

01:18:57   know the guy that I knew and let me tell [TS]

01:18:58   you about him and it's a it's a you know [TS]

01:19:00   it's a real it's fascinating in that way [TS]

01:19:03   and this guy's got all the credibility [TS]

01:19:05   in terms of who Steve Jobs was because [TS]

01:19:07   he worked with him for so long i think i [TS]

01:19:09   think he established that by the earlier [TS]

01:19:11   in the book because he talked something [TS]

01:19:12   like even without the afterward I think [TS]

01:19:14   the way he established the to me because [TS]

01:19:17   I've read a lot about Steve Jobs and [TS]

01:19:18   I've also been angry about books that i [TS]

01:19:20   felt like i was like because I mean so [TS]

01:19:23   easy to harp on the bad stuff and the [TS]

01:19:24   bad stuff is true and capital believes [TS]

01:19:26   that but like acknowledges that rather [TS]

01:19:28   but the the bit that was the most [TS]

01:19:30   convincing is the earlier part where he [TS]

01:19:31   talks about how Steve Jobs interacted [TS]

01:19:33   with Pixar and that he stuck with it and [TS]

01:19:35   kept dumping his money into it for so [TS]

01:19:38   long so many people say like will you [TS]

01:19:41   know like I believe in you know these [TS]

01:19:43   people and passion is important in blah [TS]

01:19:45   blah but the second a company like that [TS]

01:19:47   didn't look like they had a good [TS]

01:19:48   prospects they get out because that's [TS]

01:19:50   how you get rich you don't get rich by [TS]

01:19:51   being stupid by making stupid [TS]

01:19:52   investments and steve jobs seem like was [TS]

01:19:55   just gonna you know i mean he he was [TS]

01:19:56   trying to find ways that he was trying [TS]

01:19:57   to sell them as well but he stuck it out [TS]

01:19:59   for as long as he did because he [TS]

01:20:00   recognized the passion and that is [TS]

01:20:02   something that people usually only talk [TS]

01:20:04   about like oh I believe in passionate [TS]

01:20:06   people and I investment companies as [TS]

01:20:07   passionate whatever but so many in my [TS]

01:20:09   experience so many of those people who [TS]

01:20:11   are successful business are successful [TS]

01:20:12   because they don't do that because they [TS]

01:20:14   they put you know money first and [TS]

01:20:16   practical concerns first and I don't [TS]

01:20:18   care how passionate you are i'm getting [TS]

01:20:19   out what it looks like i'll be losing [TS]

01:20:20   some money where Steve Jobs was just [TS]

01:20:22   going to sit there punkin millions and [TS]

01:20:24   like it and try to sell but then like [TS]

01:20:25   being assaulted by Microsoft small after [TS]

01:20:28   you know what [TS]

01:20:28   no this would have made my money back [TS]

01:20:30   with screw you i'm gonna stick with his [TS]

01:20:31   company and that speaks to his character [TS]

01:20:33   more than any other description or [TS]

01:20:35   whatever is that you know he he really [TS]

01:20:38   put his money where his mouth is he [TS]

01:20:39   really did things that don't make sense [TS]

01:20:41   from a business perspective and that is [TS]

01:20:43   the most revealing of his character far [TS]

01:20:45   above all his little things in [TS]

01:20:47   boardrooms of you know being rude to [TS]

01:20:49   people are firing people in elevators [TS]

01:20:51   are all out of the stuff it shows what [TS]

01:20:52   did he do with his life and Pixar is one [TS]

01:20:55   of the things he did with his life that [TS]

01:20:56   I don't think almost anyone else would [TS]

01:20:57   have done I wanted to know the other [TS]

01:20:59   thing i highlighted in here which is a [TS]

01:21:01   applicable to portrayals of Steve Jobs [TS]

01:21:04   of Pixar and of apple and pretty much [TS]

01:21:08   anything else but i underlined it [TS]

01:21:10   because it's so perfectly stated which [TS]

01:21:11   is a journalist tend to look for [TS]

01:21:14   patterns that can be explained in a [TS]

01:21:15   relatively small number of words if you [TS]

01:21:17   haven't done the work of teasing apart [TS]

01:21:19   what is random and what you have [TS]

01:21:20   intentionally set in motion you will be [TS]

01:21:23   overly influenced by the analysis of [TS]

01:21:25   outside observers which is often over [TS]

01:21:27   simplified this is partially this is [TS]

01:21:29   don't believe your own PR and partially [TS]

01:21:32   this is lots of people who write about [TS]

01:21:37   companies are trying to find the [TS]

01:21:39   simplest fewest number of words to [TS]

01:21:42   explain anything it's like Occam's razor [TS]

01:21:45   gone horribly wrong is the simplest [TS]

01:21:47   explanation is is up probably the right [TS]

01:21:51   one except in these cases it's not so [TS]

01:21:53   simple I distance with it some people [TS]

01:21:56   shit pushes back against simple [TS]

01:21:58   aphorisms and simple explanations all [TS]

01:22:00   the way along [TS]

01:22:00   no I mean that's one of his big things [TS]

01:22:02   is never doubt the role that random [TS]

01:22:05   chance plays in your life and never [TS]

01:22:06   underestimate how powerfully complex and [TS]

01:22:09   unknowable systems around you are either [TS]

01:22:10   and in like John says that's not exactly [TS]

01:22:13   a happy ending [TS]

01:22:14   it's basically surrender surrender to [TS]

01:22:16   the chaos find a way to surf it and [TS]

01:22:18   that's a scary message to send I think [TS]

01:22:20   it's great that he's sending it and it's [TS]

01:22:22   a message that resonates at me in this [TS]

01:22:23   time of my life but you know if people [TS]

01:22:25   are reading this book to I need to [TS]

01:22:27   become a leader in the messages [TS]

01:22:28   surrendered to chaos that's wait what [TS]

01:22:30   was a baby and the anti-business book [TS]

01:22:33   although anyways I mean first off it it [TS]

01:22:35   I sounded I mean I kept I i noted lots [TS]

01:22:40   of things that I took away from this is [TS]

01:22:42   as inspirational business book kind of [TS]

01:22:44   material it's just a different kind of [TS]

01:22:47   book with a different kind of lesson and [TS]

01:22:49   you know why there but then again I work [TS]

01:22:52   with I work with creative people I I you [TS]

01:22:55   know I work with writers and editors and [TS]

01:22:57   and it might be very different if you [TS]

01:22:59   were working with bankers or something [TS]

01:23:01   like that [TS]

01:23:02   hey I think this is all applicable like [TS]

01:23:04   he doesn't like that's why I feel better [TS]

01:23:06   than the titles creativity ink because [TS]

01:23:07   it seems like well what if I don't work [TS]

01:23:09   into creative field should I read this [TS]

01:23:10   like the the elements that he described [TS]

01:23:12   in this book are in any big company any [TS]

01:23:15   big company where everybody making [TS]

01:23:16   hamburgers or door knobs or our jet [TS]

01:23:19   planes or software or anything like [TS]

01:23:21   these are just people elements and he's [TS]

01:23:23   coming out of that particular but people [TS]

01:23:25   are people everywhere and all these [TS]

01:23:26   things that he describes about you know [TS]

01:23:28   that being more candor in the hallway [TS]

01:23:30   than there are in the thing it in the in [TS]

01:23:32   the boardroom meetings and you know not [TS]

01:23:34   stigmatizing failure and like you said [TS]

01:23:37   not attributing your success two things [TS]

01:23:39   that seem simple and all like that they [TS]

01:23:40   happen everywhere and Ed Catmull I think [TS]

01:23:43   it from the sort of engineering [TS]

01:23:45   scientific perspective feels like he has [TS]

01:23:47   a clear image of what's really going on [TS]

01:23:49   and most people don't want to know what [TS]

01:23:50   it's like they don't want to see the [TS]

01:23:51   matrix they want to take whichever the [TS]

01:23:53   pillows the one that I forget that makes [TS]

01:23:54   you not understand that you're in a [TS]

01:23:56   group odd somewhere and he's here within [TS]

01:24:00   with an unfriendly unwelcome message but [TS]

01:24:02   like you said about about the randomness [TS]

01:24:04   in the chaos and that you know like that [TS]

01:24:06   is not a welcoming message and he has to [TS]

01:24:07   repeat himself so many times because i [TS]

01:24:09   feel like it is a message that people [TS]

01:24:11   will resist they want the pad [TS]

01:24:13   answer they want they say I recognize [TS]

01:24:15   that Alan my company and tell me how the [TS]

01:24:17   person i like I don't like in this [TS]

01:24:19   situation is wrong and tell me how I'm [TS]

01:24:21   right and tell me how to fix it and he's [TS]

01:24:22   not going to do any of those things he's [TS]

01:24:24   gonna say the situation is bad person [TS]

01:24:26   you hate it isn't that the villain here [TS]

01:24:29   you're all the Berlin and there's no [TS]

01:24:30   easy way to fix it and here's what we [TS]

01:24:32   tried and here's mine failed and like [TS]

01:24:34   it's it's it's a a clear-eyed look into [TS]

01:24:37   into the chaos of life I and I think [TS]

01:24:40   it's something that if you don't share [TS]

01:24:43   that mindset people will find [TS]

01:24:44   unattractive and not not compelling and [TS]

01:24:48   it to varying degrees you can get [TS]

01:24:50   inspiration out of it but like it's [TS]

01:24:52   almost like if you feel inspired by [TS]

01:24:53   section of this book the the book is not [TS]

01:24:55   you know the book would grab you by your [TS]

01:24:57   lapels and shakers and now stop being [TS]

01:24:58   inspired think you're in the jaws of [TS]

01:25:01   death and you don't even know it [TS]

01:25:02   no I have this thing that I learned [TS]

01:25:03   enough because art history class [TS]

01:25:05   security with it me for decades is the [TS]

01:25:08   Egyptian sculpture the Pharaohs and and [TS]

01:25:11   wives and so forth we would be portrayed [TS]

01:25:13   as staring directly into the Sun and I [TS]

01:25:16   thought of that as an important concept [TS]

01:25:17   that sometimes you have to look at truth [TS]

01:25:19   in it hurts you may have been damaged [TS]

01:25:21   you but you have to stare directly into [TS]

01:25:23   the Sun because if you look away you're [TS]

01:25:25   not actually seeing the true image we [TS]

01:25:26   get into the you know the cave that [TS]

01:25:27   Plato's cave and so forth but what it is [TS]

01:25:29   that is that a he is he finds himself [TS]

01:25:32   looking at me and goes like uh huh [TS]

01:25:34   I looked away for too long I need to [TS]

01:25:35   look all man that's what was going on [TS]

01:25:37   there and that's where the truth comes [TS]

01:25:39   from he does it again and again [TS]

01:25:41   it'sit's you need to see the chair by [TS]

01:25:42   looking at the negative space and very [TS]

01:25:44   nice the space between the notes [TS]

01:25:46   that's right for our solid background [TS]

01:25:48   hey that's what i do i I was going to [TS]

01:25:50   say in the theater social media world a [TS]

01:25:53   couple months ago someone found the the [TS]

01:25:56   list of story rules at Pixar and that [TS]

01:26:00   just you know spread like wildfire [TS]

01:26:01   facebook and twitter and everyone had [TS]

01:26:03   the on everyone had like the poster [TS]

01:26:05   version of the link to the story version [TS]

01:26:07   of it and you know I read it and I [TS]

01:26:10   thought well okay yeah i believe all [TS]

01:26:11   those things that's great and I really [TS]

01:26:13   hope that you know whether whether on [TS]

01:26:17   the management side on the creative side [TS]

01:26:18   if you work in creative industry read [TS]

01:26:22   this book because it's just as useful as [TS]

01:26:26   those story [TS]

01:26:27   rules and it's it's just as many things [TS]

01:26:30   that you can you can follow or you can [TS]

01:26:32   ignore or you can adjust and adapt and [TS]

01:26:36   you know I'm kind of afraid that people [TS]

01:26:37   aren't going to read it because they're [TS]

01:26:39   going to think I was a business book or [TS]

01:26:40   oh it's not a nice list like a buzzfeed [TS]

01:26:42   article because you know 25-story rules [TS]

01:26:45   is a lot faster than 300 something pages [TS]

01:26:48   but I I just almost every every chapter [TS]

01:26:53   in this was just going [TS]

01:26:54   yes in my head the artistic aspects of [TS]

01:26:57   it is another place where is like a [TS]

01:26:58   fairly frightening echo of my personal [TS]

01:27:01   experience that I spent my my use doing [TS]

01:27:03   a you know a lot of you know fine arts [TS]

01:27:05   type stuff and that cat balls into that [TS]

01:27:07   as well and he describes having the pics [TS]

01:27:09   are employees take an art class and the [TS]

01:27:12   things he described like it's kind of [TS]

01:27:15   the same thing it seeing the reality [TS]

01:27:16   situation doing doing the negative space [TS]

01:27:18   and drawing your shoe upside down and [TS]

01:27:20   everything all that is an exercise to [TS]

01:27:22   make people who aren't experienced [TS]

01:27:24   artists draw it's actually they're not [TS]

01:27:26   what they think [TS]

01:27:27   don't draw your minds conception of a [TS]

01:27:29   shoe draw the actual shoe that's there [TS]

01:27:31   at which is a great analogy is a great [TS]

01:27:34   experience because it in business so [TS]

01:27:36   much people will people withdraw their [TS]

01:27:38   conception of issue i know what a chair [TS]

01:27:39   looks like i'm going to throw a chair [TS]

01:27:41   I know how business runs I'm gonna run a [TS]

01:27:42   business and they will just not see the [TS]

01:27:44   actual chair that's their the actual [TS]

01:27:45   shoes there and the worst part is like [TS]

01:27:47   after they've done it after you drop the [TS]

01:27:49   shoe and you ask somebody have you [TS]

01:27:51   accurately depicted the shoe that was in [TS]

01:27:52   front of you does that look like that [TS]

01:27:53   show you look at this issue that's a [TS]

01:27:55   sure they'll shoot shoot i did it and [TS]

01:27:57   but like why is your why is this picture [TS]

01:27:59   not good why is not realistic wise iron [TS]

01:28:02   always is different in some way but i we [TS]

01:28:03   can't really tell it's the same thing in [TS]

01:28:05   business it's like you know I I know how [TS]

01:28:07   to run a business this is a business [TS]

01:28:09   there they're running the business they [TS]

01:28:10   think is their not the business that's [TS]

01:28:11   actually there so it's it's a great [TS]

01:28:14   analogy but I fear like so much when I [TS]

01:28:16   read this book and reiterating the same [TS]

01:28:18   points over and over i fear that it will [TS]

01:28:20   bounce off people that if they haven't [TS]

01:28:21   actually drawn tried to draw shoe they [TS]

01:28:23   won't understand the point is being made [TS]

01:28:24   that if they run a business there [TS]

01:28:26   they're gonna be running the business [TS]

01:28:27   they think they see not the one that's [TS]

01:28:28   really there that's the irony of the [TS]

01:28:30   reality distortion field that he [TS]

01:28:31   mentions in the afterward to is [TS]

01:28:32   afterwards a select few know people talk [TS]

01:28:34   about Steve Jobs having this reality [TS]

01:28:35   distortion field and he didn't see it [TS]

01:28:37   the same way you know Steve painting a [TS]

01:28:39   vision of reality [TS]

01:28:40   that he could pull into existence in [TS]

01:28:43   India it's funny that I think he saw [TS]

01:28:45   himself right we got ed catmull himself [TS]

01:28:48   and the way viewed steve jobs is that [TS]

01:28:51   they did that you know they weren't [TS]

01:28:53   distorting reality they actually because [TS]

01:28:54   it made this stuff happen doesn't matter [TS]

01:28:57   what you think they're thinking they did [TS]

01:28:59   it right right all right we have to go [TS]

01:29:06   we have run out of time for this episode [TS]

01:29:08   but i would like to thank my guests for [TS]

01:29:10   joining me to talk a little bit about a [TS]

01:29:12   lot of stuff revolving around Pixar and [TS]

01:29:15   creativity think David Laura thanks for [TS]

01:29:19   being here [TS]

01:29:20   hey thanks for getting me to read it [TS]

01:29:22   anyway yeah yeah absolutely not that I [TS]

01:29:25   wasn't going to but Glenn fleischmann [TS]

01:29:27   thank you for being back lit been awhile [TS]

01:29:31   I i read a book [TS]

01:29:32   thank you yeah you used to read lots of [TS]

01:29:34   books what happened [TS]

01:29:37   Hugo's broken yeah that's possible [TS]

01:29:41   well mirror Lisa Schmeisser thank you [TS]

01:29:43   for being here [TS]

01:29:45   I like how you laugh resided me when you [TS]

01:29:47   say my name haha well you were here you [TS]

01:29:53   were also present know you know you were [TS]

01:29:55   more I realized this one of the only way [TS]

01:29:56   you could have contributed more as if I [TS]

01:29:58   just let you host and gone decided and [TS]

01:30:01   watch some TV [TS]

01:30:03   John syracuse oh thanks for being here [TS]

01:30:07   success sides problems dazing you know [TS]

01:30:10   it's true it's true but first you have [TS]

01:30:13   to have success anyway that's it for now [TS]

01:30:16   and thanks for listening to be [TS]

01:30:18   uncomfortable we'll see you next time [TS]

01:30:25   space the final frontier [TS]

01:30:34   these are the voyages of Scott McNulty [TS]

01:30:37   his one-man mission to watch every [TS]

01:30:40   episode of Star Trek the original series [TS]

01:30:43   the next generation deep space nine [TS]

01:30:45   Voyager enterprise and all the feature [TS]

01:30:48   films but not the animated series [TS]

01:30:50   randomly with a guest on our podcast [TS]

01:30:54   it's called random track [TS]

01:30:57   first of all some of the actors are [TS]

01:30:58   better than i was in this isn't my [TS]

01:31:00   favorite part of this episode is [TS]

01:31:02   watching the actors just freeze and try [TS]

01:31:05   to remain as still as possible [TS]

01:31:06   some i will say that divorce Kelly and [TS]

01:31:08   Leonard anymore do a pretty good job i [TS]

01:31:10   think i like how Shatner has some [TS]

01:31:13   trouble whose eyes keep moving is like I [TS]

01:31:15   can't stop acting [TS]

01:31:18   find it on itunes or at the [TS]

01:31:20   uncomfortable dot-com / random track [TS]