0:00:00this episode of Roderick online is
0:00:02sponsored by cards against humanity this
0:00:04month they invited set boyer to help me
0:00:07say hi to john came
0:00:20hello hi John hi bear would posit
0:00:24colleague pretty good it sounds like a
0:00:27congested jello biafra who a Pepsi blue
0:00:32fish and dyad fucking dragon lady fights
0:00:37tied but I don't know what's going on
0:00:41with me i was up until four thirty in
0:00:43the morning last night and then I i've
0:00:46reverted immediately to type right by my
0:00:50people are all in France and it took me
0:00:52three days to just like completely
0:00:54completely reverb yeah that's it that's
0:00:58all it took m130 in the morning but now
0:01:00it seems to me that yet on the one hand
0:01:02it is your natural predilection to be a
0:01:04night owl but on the other hand the
0:01:06thing that brings the night owl pneus
0:01:07out in you is some kind of an interest
0:01:10often online where were you drawn to
0:01:12that are you sorting things what kept
0:01:14you up I was balancing angels ok on the
0:01:20head of a pin
0:01:21oh that's so nice and then I was
0:01:23balancing the entire contraption on the
0:01:25tip of my finger
0:01:26mm see angels all the way down that's
0:01:29right so if you can sit right very right
0:01:31so if you can imagine it's kind of a tea
0:01:33at Rosings ani it's a little bit of a
0:01:36circus circus but the latest la banda
0:01:41saturday for the central pay ten it's
0:01:44got it's a it's a flying Karamazov
0:01:46brothers of angels ooh tiny angels it's
0:01:51like a heavenly flea circus
0:01:53that's precisely what it is i pay for
0:01:56that you know I that's when people that
0:01:57when people would say how many angels
0:01:59can you balance on that of a pin i would
0:02:01always imagined it just like a flea
0:02:03circus
0:02:03I don't know what you don't you say all
0:02:05of them that was like sure if that was
0:02:07the google interview question i would
0:02:09just say all of them problem
0:02:10yeah i mean how many prove me wrong
0:02:13show your math every angel all the
0:02:17Angels even all the great angels even
0:02:20the late angel but the to the chubby
0:02:23angel that's always late
0:02:24i'm sowwy he's gonna come up and pop in
0:02:27the future
0:02:28he gets on there too sowwy bars
0:02:32angel angel well I'll have your badge
0:02:37I was gonna ask you how life without the
0:02:39family i think i mentioned probably
0:02:41after we stopped recording last time I
0:02:42can't recall but just how i descend
0:02:44usually within less than 36 hours into a
0:02:48nearly feral State yeah that was part of
0:02:50the Roderick on the line after dark
0:02:53after dark that we always don't record
0:02:56that's right we're just doing shots and
0:02:57talking about life just talking about
0:02:59like some of the funniest stuff some of
0:03:00the most amazing
0:03:02oh my gosh we have fun don't we boy we
0:03:04really do we get in there we talk about
0:03:05get religion you get sent me some of the
0:03:08stuff that we can talk about on the
0:03:09program Ron Paul revolution
0:03:11well it's all in there yeah you i mean i
0:03:14have seen you get turned into a feral
0:03:17dog so fast faster than almost any other
0:03:20person if you if you are not like
0:03:24actually literally being shaved like
0:03:30restrained at some kind of a clinic
0:03:32well just like it as you are shaving one
0:03:35part of you the other part is bursting
0:03:38forth like you know Wolverine styling
0:03:41yeah well here's the thing well here's
0:03:42the hmm here's the thing about that is
0:03:45that I am less of a totally distracted
0:03:50basket case then i have been at other
0:03:51times in my life but I am still a very
0:03:54distractible basket case
0:03:55so you know it'sit's you see me in your
0:03:57home like a come in i've got a little
0:03:59bag of stuff and pretty soon the stuff
0:04:00is everywhere and I can't find anything
0:04:02i don't have to feed myself anymore i
0:04:03get i get very confused very quickly
0:04:05yeah yeah well and it's a it's
0:04:07delightful it's what makes us great it's
0:04:09a great effect to have at a bar right
0:04:14when you when I see you come into a bar
0:04:15and you spread your stuff all around and
0:04:18and that night riii stand by the door
0:04:20with everything in my bag the bag is
0:04:22zipped up and I am no more than three
0:04:24paces from the door at all really soon
0:04:26you're standing on a barstool heart the
0:04:29bartender is is a is it becomes a
0:04:32lifelong friend i'm a call that's true i
0:04:35make knocking excellent grandma moses i
0:04:37am ready to go anywhere very quickly I i
0:04:39am i'm kind of a little bit famous for
0:04:42this I think is heard of the protocol
0:04:43the French accent I've heard it called
0:04:45the irish exit
0:04:46I'm not sure what kind of exit is but I
0:04:49don't like taking a long time to leave
0:04:52somewhere so whereas i will spread out
0:04:54in a hotel room or your home in that
0:04:56little special secret room under the
0:04:58stairs i will take harry potter sleeping
0:05:01in John's house i will keep all of my
0:05:03stuff ready I am always waiting for the
0:05:05opportunity to leave anywhere all the
0:05:07time
0:05:07that's what is because why I always
0:05:09imagined that backpack was actually a
0:05:10parachute right part of it is like a
0:05:13rash you can't say what the rest is yeah
0:05:15and i know you like to be the last
0:05:16person to dive onto the plane or the
0:05:18last person to dive off of the muni
0:05:20train
0:05:20I've seen this you I used to think you
0:05:22were making it up but it's true you
0:05:23stand dead still in my pajamas are
0:05:25stopped and you're like kind of comic
0:05:27barely moving your head shaking i got
0:05:29like don't even acknowledge that were
0:05:31together this can be used against us
0:05:33later and in film you gotta get through
0:05:35that door at the last possible second
0:05:37house and I because yeah because reasons
0:05:39because reason because privacy secrecy
0:05:42now that it didn't you in your behind a
0:05:46couple times in the last couple years
0:05:48hasn't it didn't miss a flight recently
0:05:50because of that you know what I missed a
0:05:51couple of flights and what happened was
0:05:53the airline industry keeps changing the
0:05:56rules it keeps moving the goalposts so
0:06:00they started doing this thing where
0:06:02they're like well if you're not you know
0:06:03the the flight leaves at seven forty but
0:06:07the doors close at seven twenty yep and
0:06:11it's like what was then the flight
0:06:13leaves at seven twenty no no the flight
0:06:16leaves at seven forty but the doors and
0:06:19I'm like well no that's not on the
0:06:20ticket dude butterflies names doors
0:06:22doors being printed on the ticket right
0:06:24I've been on plenty of flights that left
0:06:25at 740 where the door is closed at seven
0:06:28forty and then the plane sat at the
0:06:31airport for another hour and a half or
0:06:33so let's not fuck around with like the
0:06:36flight leaves its when the doors closes
0:06:38when the flight leaves so yeah I was
0:06:40sitting in the sitting in the airport
0:06:41looking around enjoying myself cleaning
0:06:45my nails yes
0:06:46scanning for a people and sandals
0:06:49that's right look that's right making
0:06:51sure that the that there's not some
0:06:53screaming baby issuing citations
0:06:55a little you know a little bit yeah you
0:06:57want to make sure the thing about a
0:06:59specter agent who is that you're going
0:07:01to be able to pick that Spectre agent
0:07:03out not by their own behavior but how
0:07:05they react to your behavior and then all
0:07:08of a sudden I look up in the doors
0:07:10yes I write what I walk over and I'm
0:07:11like a I'm on this line they're like not
0:07:14anymore
0:07:15good luck finding somebody i'm off and I
0:07:18bet those reasons for this
0:07:19I bet I I think I know two things about
0:07:21this kind of i know that an airplane
0:07:24only makes money when it's in the air
0:07:25and I know that there's a lot of
0:07:28pressure
0:07:29I pretty sure is a lot of pressure on
0:07:31the whole flight crew to keep their
0:07:33delays down because it looks bad to the
0:07:35company and it looks bad to the public
0:07:36when you go look something up online
0:07:37records on this stuff right we got
0:07:39record i sent you that link to that that
0:07:41that amazing website where you can watch
0:07:42real time flight information like you
0:07:45know you know that's not likely exposed
0:07:46you can go and see hey this this flight
0:07:48from San Francisco Portland is a is late
0:07:51you know fourteen percent of the time or
0:07:53so yeah so I'll bet that's it is also
0:07:55that maybe there's something that makes
0:07:57them look better they get everybody
0:07:58backed into the fart tube quicker and
0:08:01that looks better on their quarterly
0:08:02report may be so I am incapable of like
0:08:06a lot of people my generation night and
0:08:08I don't you know we love you in to my
0:08:10generation me let me know when you're 18
0:08:12months older than me or something
0:08:15coupled in that but I find that I am now
0:08:21constitutionally incapable of having em
0:08:23any sympathy or even like certainly no
0:08:28co measure commas commiseration but also
0:08:30like no even like shared understanding
0:08:34with anyone in the airline industry
0:08:36right i cannot even if all the facts are
0:08:39there if it's all laid out like oh this
0:08:41makes perfect sense i cannot sympathize
0:08:43with them because they are because it
0:08:46seems to me that they have all agreed
0:08:47that their business model relies on
0:08:49torturing people before for money i
0:08:53think this becoming it's funny because
0:08:55in that it's not like they didn't want
0:08:57to make money 50 years ago but for a
0:08:59variety of reasons that are too likely
0:09:01to get into today it is a naturally
0:09:03necessarily adversarial relationship
0:09:06with a lot of gotchas and like anything
0:09:08when
0:09:08just certain age you're always wondering
0:09:10who's trying to fuck you like who's
0:09:11gonna screw me today and like what
0:09:13should I be looking for and in the
0:09:15airline industry I mean that is real it
0:09:17is totally real they're going to do as
0:09:19little as possible for you with a few
0:09:20resources as possible and find as many
0:09:22things they can't charge for kids that's
0:09:24just the way the industry works and to
0:09:26act like it's anything else and talk
0:09:27about things like loyalty loyalty really
0:09:29what's your loyalty to me i can't find
0:09:31anybody to talk to get my family on a
0:09:32plane
0:09:33yeah well I'm and the and more than any
0:09:36other more than any other thing in them
0:09:39in the contemporary world they have a
0:09:41they have adopted the idea that
0:09:44seniority by which they mean this
0:09:48strange loyalty thing that you're
0:09:50talking about like the more money that
0:09:51you pay to us the more opportunities
0:09:56were going to give you to opt out of
0:09:59being waterboarded yeah and and without
0:10:03that without that uh that by him
0:10:08your only other option is to pay a user
0:10:12eous fee you know to pay twenty-five
0:10:15hundred dollars for a ticket right and
0:10:17look at the at the middling levels of
0:10:19that seniority you mainly get the
0:10:21opportunity to pay slightly less to be
0:10:23waterboarded but your student to not be
0:10:25waterboarded but you're gonna pay
0:10:26yeah you're still gonna you're still
0:10:27going to sit in in a in an iron maiden
0:10:30while we like pissing your mat so the
0:10:33only way
0:10:33mmm that sounds very adult forget to
0:10:36Like lufthansa the actually there there
0:10:39it's called the it's called the what was
0:10:41that may be nicer
0:10:42that's what was the one we crashed in me
0:10:44in in the Alps the guy decided that he
0:10:47will write that I've done I'm done you
0:10:48know it's not easy jet it was fly it was
0:10:515i applies and scheisse like sunshine i
0:10:55was Luke chase shy set but you're
0:10:58absolutely right knee and the only way
0:11:00that happens is deliberate like we're
0:11:02gonna I mean it's a total win for them
0:11:04you get a lighter narrower seat you put
0:11:07more people into the into the fart tube
0:11:09and then you charge them to basically to
0:11:12be in a seat that is that is not
0:11:13deliberately uncomfortable
0:11:15oh and with the lean back lean not
0:11:18looking was you know they they used all
0:11:20that
0:11:20after nine eleven gas prices went crazy
0:11:23you know they they made all those
0:11:26modifications and justified them at the
0:11:28time because gas is so expensive that
0:11:30they couldn't possibly profit anymore
0:11:32and so they had to do this they were
0:11:34being forced to do this by economics
0:11:38they're being forced to do this by the
0:11:39market there was no other way airlines
0:11:41were going the whole idea of flying was
0:11:45going to disappear from our minds
0:11:48because of because gas prices that made
0:11:50it had made it impossible and then when
0:11:54gas prices went down again they did not
0:11:59it was not like these are emergency
0:12:01measures and we're going to repeal them
0:12:03as soon as this this national crisis is
0:12:06over
0:12:07like when gas prices went down they
0:12:09continued up you continued on that on
0:12:13that on that are just like oh wow we
0:12:15figured out that we can take away all
0:12:17the padding from the seats and people
0:12:19still fly what would happen if we put a
0:12:23dead rat in every fourth seat under the
0:12:27padding but people still fly appears
0:12:29they do and what would happen if we put
0:12:32a hat pin in every 15th armrest wow
0:12:37people let's put one in every arm rest
0:12:39well let's be honest gas prices were
0:12:41pretty expensive so happens at pins
0:12:44right let's take let's make sure let's
0:12:46let's make it impossible to check a bag
0:12:47and and then it turns into a kind of
0:12:51like world war z on every airplane as
0:12:55people try to cram their luggage in the
0:12:57overhead compartments which used to that
0:13:00you know you overhead compartments you
0:13:02used to be able to you could have a
0:13:04skateboarding competition and mostly
0:13:06they were empty because people people
0:13:08are going to bags and a sousaphone
0:13:09because they don't spend $15 and they're
0:13:12happy they're happy to charge you for
0:13:13that yeah so then the airline's then it
0:13:14then it takes 45 minutes to board
0:13:16instead of 15 minutes to board and then
0:13:18they're like oh boy we're running out of
0:13:20where you know it takes too long to
0:13:21board so now the door is closed 20
0:13:23minutes guys to me the huge question
0:13:26mark is well first of all you have the
0:13:28the human problem
0:13:29of well the human and business problem
0:13:31of there are more and more people
0:13:32traveling who are bringing big things on
0:13:34every extra thing that somebody brings
0:13:36on there i think has a geometric
0:13:38contribution to how long it takes and
0:13:40people don't understand like get the
0:13:41fuck out of the aisle get out of the
0:13:43i'll spend no time in the aisle unless
0:13:45you are moving movement ok they don't
0:13:47get that but then I don't understand i
0:13:50think this has been experimented with on
0:13:52various airlines but the way these
0:13:53planes board is bananas
0:13:55why well first of all there's no like of
0:13:57seeming science to like figuring out how
0:13:59to load from the back first and there's
0:14:01also the financial component of hey it's
0:14:03not it's not gonna be fair to all those
0:14:05all those seniority people to let the
0:14:08people in the back of the plane get on
0:14:10first right they have to be want to
0:14:12spend as much time on the plan as you
0:14:13possibly can he might be at you know
0:14:15active military service in uniform
0:14:17platinum gold silver plus international
0:14:19100k with a child that needs extra time
0:14:22right right so i mean it's it's so funny
0:14:24when I sometimes like recently on a
0:14:26flight was an easy flight to Portland
0:14:28not too long ago and i was saying
0:14:29seating group to because i was in like
0:14:33United you know plus or whatever maybe
0:14:36slightly bigger chair and I don't you
0:14:38get priority boarding half the plane got
0:14:42on your activity because you got 200 200
0:14:45game military yeah the diamond platinum
0:14:50silver group thank you for your service
0:14:52the thing that drives me crazy is
0:14:53somewhere along the line at it as we
0:14:56became as the airline's reduced us to
0:14:59our tour most basic like bergen-belsen
0:15:05that level of like a human animal God
0:15:11people forgot people people realized
0:15:15that even if they were seated in row 34
0:15:17they can put their bag
0:15:20oh yeah right and so all the people
0:15:25loading of the back of the plan get on
0:15:26they put their to put their bags in the
0:15:29first available bin right which which
0:15:31might be on well 11 because they are
0:15:34going to have to go by there again
0:15:35wonder where everyone have your back
0:15:37behind you but you're more than happy to
0:15:39your bag in front of you yeah so this is
0:15:41another this is another thing where I
0:15:43used to sit in the airport and wait
0:15:45until the last possible moment and i'm
0:15:47not you know what when they said we're
0:15:50going to charge you for the first six
0:15:53rows of coach we're going to charge you
0:15:55a hundred dollars more for the six first
0:15:58six rows of coach because we're gonna
0:15:59give you an inch more of legroom I was
0:16:02like okay you know what I turned into
0:16:05Todd Barry I was like okay fine i'll pay
0:16:10your hundred fucking dollars like
0:16:11whatever I if you've got me right
0:16:17I'm just a fucking I'm just a calf being
0:16:22fatted for slaughter you just a meat
0:16:26wallet is the big moist media object
0:16:30that happens to have a little bit of
0:16:31money right and when they said now we're
0:16:33going to charge you to sit in the exit
0:16:35row which is a which is this place as a
0:16:37seat which carries with it tremendous
0:16:39responsibility and we're also going to
0:16:42charge you to adopt that responsibility
0:16:44and also seats don't recline I was like
0:16:47you know what fine okay fine but then
0:16:50i'm sitting in the airport waiting for
0:16:53the waiting to be the last person on the
0:16:54plane enjoying the airport ambiens not
0:16:57yet crammed into the fart tube and then
0:16:59I am the last one on I get down to my
0:17:02seat which i have paid a hundred dollars
0:17:04extra for enroll one and there's no
0:17:08place for my bag because somebody in row
0:17:1034 cramming their bag in there on the
0:17:13way by yep there's no there's no attempt
0:17:15at the provenance they're not trying to
0:17:16detect first of all I think they're
0:17:18super fast and loose about what people
0:17:20actually carry on
0:17:21they have all those owners signs and
0:17:22shit but I see so many people carrying
0:17:25three things on there and they got like
0:17:26they got a fucking create a fruit
0:17:28oh sure their whole marriage my medics
0:17:31they vary as medics yeah yeah no they're
0:17:34not stopping them which is weird to me
0:17:35it's almost like they want to see us
0:17:36fight it out mad max-style yeah because
0:17:39you then you turn to the to the to the
0:17:41flight attendant
0:17:42hey i'm in this seat and there's no
0:17:44place for my bag and they look at you
0:17:46like how like the other child to give
0:17:50you never flown before don't you know
0:17:52you need to run in here and tear people
0:17:53apart yeah yeah right exactly
0:17:56oh yeah we know we called your row a
0:17:58long time ago the guy said and I was
0:18:00like well yeah I know it's not like you
0:18:04called my row
0:18:06I mean I i get to get on when I want but
0:18:08apparently there are new rules like this
0:18:11was new right up until five years ago
0:18:14you there was a general there was a
0:18:17social compact yeah you put your bag
0:18:20above your own seat it would never never
0:18:22in a bike and I cannot imagine in 1999
0:18:26someone putting their bag above unless
0:18:30you know unless it was like well it
0:18:32never would have happened if you put
0:18:34your bag of somebody else's seated never
0:18:35would have had it would have it would
0:18:36have been like it would have been like
0:18:38you put your underwear on somebody
0:18:40else's head keep your underwear on your
0:18:43own head over anyway Merlin I don't want
0:18:46to turn our great show in this wonderful
0:18:49time that you and I have to spend
0:18:51together
0:18:51yes into another anti airline podcast
0:18:56there are so many of those that should
0:18:57be that should be a spin-off and you are
0:18:59not you are about to get on an airplane
0:19:02yes are you what are you doing driving
0:19:04yes
0:19:05yeah yeah yeah i bought my flight late
0:19:07and so I actually am in I'm in the
0:19:11bathroom area and there's exactly hoping
0:19:13for one of the San Francisco to pdx
0:19:14plates
0:19:15it's like you're 30-something center
0:19:17seat but you know what skin
0:19:18hour-and-a-half flight
0:19:19yes you did stand on your head yeah yeah
0:19:22I'm doing that is you just play Pocket
0:19:25pool for an hour and a half but maybe we
0:19:26could have a blanket please I'm going
0:19:30good too XOXO festival
0:19:32um excuse me could I have a fresh
0:19:34blanket believe you would wake was
0:19:38setting is it was that moist scraping
0:19:40noise that monkey another the hydraulics
0:19:44that's no 40 of shingles
0:19:47ahh ladies and gentlemen once again can
0:19:52I ask everybody with the with shingles
0:19:54at any point our pint please stop
0:19:57servicing the shell hundred the
0:19:59complimentary blanket once again like
0:20:02this comment
0:20:02Oh once again once again into the breach
0:20:08when immortan joe says that in in fury
0:20:12road it's funny because like i always
0:20:14think of the airline's you know because
0:20:16the very very very very very first words
0:20:18out of anyone's mouth on the plane every
0:20:20time is like a lot of on your laptop to
0:20:23facilitate high well Zaun pocket for a
0:20:26quiet place for out of the heart was
0:20:30possible it was all so here's what you
0:20:32know what fuck this we're not gonna talk
0:20:34about planes i also hate how they have
0:20:35to have two words for everything you did
0:20:38get up until you come to a full and
0:20:40complete stop
0:20:41mm one great i got a whole list of these
0:20:43I believe that I've written I have
0:20:44written these down i have with me here
0:20:47I know I read some short fiction about
0:20:48this one time yeah about the about the
0:20:50use of two words to describe everything
0:20:53ok what are some of the other ones but
0:20:55yeah there's a lot of redundancy on a
0:20:57plane anyway and I don't talk about that
0:20:59I've never read your fiction i feel like
0:21:00this is something this is this to me
0:21:04there's a reason for that
0:21:06I won't even read my fiction who I
0:21:08thought about this the other day why
0:21:10don't you write fiction there was a time
0:21:11when you were young you tried to write
0:21:13fiction wrote fiction all the time
0:21:14Sheriff fiction but uh but it's not it's
0:21:17just not in me
0:21:18oh my goodness it's a who you know it's
0:21:21like yeah it's a lot of work and who
0:21:23really wants to read it
0:21:24yeah right you sit down here like uh
0:21:26mazing clots lives in a neighborhood in
0:21:34a house they should always open with
0:21:36whether that's the thing always open
0:21:38with whether Maisie Glotz looked out
0:21:39upon the rain the pounding rain the
0:21:43American seen purple throw like poetry
0:21:49at this point you know like i said my
0:21:51piece has a young verse Smith that you
0:21:54know the other people who read poems or
0:21:56other poets and I know it's not entirely
0:21:59true fiction today but it kind of feels
0:22:00that way sometimes but it's just other
0:22:02fiction writers we I don't know I don't
0:22:04know I can say what I did this morning
0:22:05i'm sitting here I'm gonna happen a lot
0:22:08of pain right now
0:22:09Oh No
0:22:10you know they did you decide on a hat
0:22:13pin in my dreams
0:22:15now I pulled a muscle in my neck opening
0:22:19a curtain
0:22:20Wow and it's an easy curtain
0:22:23it's like a real light curtain all I did
0:22:24was whisked away with with a kind of
0:22:27like zen-like certainly like a wish and
0:22:29I went a little bit too hard and now i
0:22:32can barely move my head
0:22:33did did did did your children gather
0:22:36around and put your you're clear plastic
0:22:39carapace on you're not haha yes they
0:22:44separated they spray some stuff on the I
0:22:46guess that's probably they're probably
0:22:47sunscreen they spray on Emma trapped in
0:22:49your 59 Cadillac mark medals be so great
0:22:55if my daughter would put me in a bit of
0:22:56plastic carapace and pin my non-existent
0:22:58metals to me
0:22:59yeah just be like you are chrome now
0:23:01shiny chrome she's already at school CC
0:23:03that you saw the movie huh what you
0:23:05talking about
0:23:06yeah I want to see the movie the other
0:23:08night again at the cinerama oh nice
0:23:14Paul Allen's Paul Allen's in her life
0:23:17and made outer and it was like a
0:23:22midnight show and I was driving around
0:23:26the lonely streets pretty much exactly
0:23:31like glenn frey in Joshua Tree know and
0:23:37we belong to the night
0:23:38oh yeah to see you know the steam coming
0:23:42out of this the steam holy very says
0:23:46that cinematographic it was
0:23:48cinematographic I was driving around the
0:23:50town all by my lonesome just just
0:23:53looking at the night crawlers and I was
0:23:56like there's the cinerama oh they're
0:23:58playing uh mad max fury road
0:24:00oh there's a midnight show oh I'm gonna
0:24:03go and hold them and I went inside by
0:24:04myself in the middle of the night my god
0:24:06and it's a yeah it's it's I'm watching
0:24:12it over and over now about the watch it
0:24:14over and over stage I know me 2i and I
0:24:16don't really like a movie because i
0:24:19watch it over and over all watch it
0:24:21when I first got my hands on a copy i
0:24:23was watching it twice a night which is
0:24:25weird every you got your hands on a copy
0:24:27how do you do know you can't but as soon
0:24:29as the movie would end and you know he'd
0:24:32give that little nod and then little
0:24:33elevators going and you're like I'm like
0:24:35that's it
0:24:36no just turn it back on it- i really
0:24:38like because i'll start like partway
0:24:39through wrong I'll jump I'll jump
0:24:40straight to the like the last act or you
0:24:42know I don't know I just want to watch
0:24:44that one wants that dust storm
0:24:47oh man sequence i have talked about this
0:24:50a movie a lot in a lot of places so I
0:24:53don't overdo it but there is something
0:24:55just spectacular about it and I sensed i
0:24:59still am amazed and and watching the
0:25:01behind-the-scenes stuff I can't talk
0:25:03about this a long time like
0:25:04behind-the-scenes stuff where are you
0:25:06getting all this extra material
0:25:08well you can be something that you
0:25:10torrented I don't know what that is also
0:25:13avoid torrance they're dangerous
0:25:14did you go on the onion 1 the Deep Web i
0:25:18watched the netflix movie about the
0:25:20darknet at the dark the dark web when
0:25:24you tell you didn't tell you told you
0:25:25not to go into his work is really more
0:25:27about silk road it was something that
0:25:29was meant to be so it's directed this
0:25:31directed by Bill and Ted Bell Ted will
0:25:33build directed it and Ted is the
0:25:36narrator and it's mostly about Silk Road
0:25:38out cocks to this and said his name was
0:25:41not to get the decision Nancy I'm
0:25:42confused
0:25:43well you know this pointer alex winter
0:25:45this winter yeah so anyway it was good
0:25:48and it was really sad it was super set i
0:25:50learned that screams you ready for this
0:25:52guess what turns out that I I one point
0:25:54they showed they they said this guy
0:25:56lived in west portal and they showed a
0:25:59flash and turns out he was living in a
0:26:01place that I go by all the time that's
0:26:04just about half a mile from my house
0:26:06wow did you go knock on the front door
0:26:08is not listed as I've always known this
0:26:11place to be totally sketch it has a real
0:26:12Russian mobster feel you no idea if
0:26:15you're leaving from my house take the l
0:26:16and you make that right turn onto 15
0:26:18yeah by the butcher shop and there's
0:26:20this place on the corner sometimes it's
0:26:21a beauty salon mostly just a lot of guys
0:26:23out front smoking coach across-the-board
0:26:25do it right and so yeah totally
0:26:28he had a sublet their he was they had a
0:26:30fake name and that's where the Silk Road
0:26:32guy live for a while
0:26:34what a crazy if you watch that movie
0:26:36it's crazy
0:26:37no because you know after my after my
0:26:39several years on 4chan yeah probably
0:26:42I i purposely ejected myself from the
0:26:50seedy underbelly of the internet and
0:26:53never to return it was you know there
0:26:57was a there was a while there I was like
0:26:58listen I am NOT going to go gently into
0:27:01this goodnight i'm gonna rage rage
0:27:03against the dying of the light
0:27:04Who I am going to know about all of the
0:27:09dark corners as your peers your pecans
0:27:12and research right well be you know I
0:27:16was not well just put your nose
0:27:20no no that you're putting your nose into
0:27:22a lot of dark corners because up until
0:27:24the up until the internet i try i tried
0:27:29as a young person to know all of the
0:27:33dark corners of life that I could
0:27:35stomach firsthand right i went into the
0:27:40actual door of places that the that
0:27:45repelled me because I didn't want to be
0:27:48somebody that didn't know uh the limits
0:27:52of at first I thought the limits of
0:27:54human experience and then I realized I
0:27:56was never I was not capable of exploring
0:27:59the limits of human experience but I was
0:28:02capable likes exploring the limits of my
0:28:04own my own limits as far as like a where
0:28:09I became not just uncomfortable but
0:28:12where I became where I felt like under
0:28:16siege
0:28:17you know i would i would go do i would
0:28:19subject myself you're you're pushing
0:28:20your own limits as well as discovering
0:28:23the how far other people got ya right
0:28:26and so like a good i participate in
0:28:29rough trade no good eyewitness rough
0:28:33trade yeah and-and-and that was part of
0:28:38how I was trying to make myself so when
0:28:40it went a lot of that went to the
0:28:42internet I was like well i have to you
0:28:45know I can't let it go
0:28:47I can't let there be worlds that I don't
0:28:50know about
0:28:51yeah i mean there are certainly corners
0:28:52of the world i prefer not to know about
0:28:54but there can't be world's I don't have
0:28:56any knowledge of and so yeah when I went
0:28:59in there like who
0:29:01who's in here you know slam open
0:29:05hello lose it and then I was like oh
0:29:07shit yeah and uh and then I was then I
0:29:11was quiet and sitting on a hard stool in
0:29:15what I hoped wasn't unnoticeable corner
0:29:17of a place where i was like a lot of
0:29:21this a large percentage of this is fake
0:29:23but something or fake or heavily
0:29:28exaggerated yeah it's like anything on
0:29:30the internet like it doesn't cost
0:29:32anything for a sixteen-year-old to dummy
0:29:37up a a world and you just and you just
0:29:41see that it doesn't it doesn't hold
0:29:43water and I'm not somebody that can can
0:29:47say like oh that's been shipped or
0:29:49whatever but enough of it is enough of
0:29:55what i saw was just like you know
0:29:58indisputably true
0:30:01and-and-and-and I knew about it you know
0:30:04I knew about it in my in my mind's eye I
0:30:08had read accounts but on the on the
0:30:13internet you see can see it you can pay
0:30:15for it you know and I was like a right
0:30:19so it is ultimately like kind of
0:30:22limitless what humans can do and do do
0:30:27I didn't I guess I needed that confirmed
0:30:31yeah because you don't you don't think
0:30:34about it and they're always there were
0:30:35always doors that I didn't go
0:30:37you know you go into the door and
0:30:39there's a bunch of guys sitting around
0:30:40you go through the second door and
0:30:42there's fewer guys in there then they
0:30:43make you uncomfortable and then there's
0:30:44a third door and the question in
0:30:46everybody's eyes is like you're going to
0:30:47go through the third door and most of
0:30:49the time you say no as a matter of fact
0:30:51thank you
0:30:52yeah this second door was enough for me
0:30:54makes me feel weird already I'm out of
0:30:56here
0:30:57but but so yeah silkroad just seemed
0:31:01like a bunch of people by an ecstasy on
0:31:03the internet but some of that some of
0:31:06that
0:31:07yes yeah i mean there are there are
0:31:09there are variety of well you know I
0:31:12don't get too deep into it but I mean
0:31:13there's nothing there's a lot of a lot
0:31:15of good valid and noble even noble
0:31:20reasons for wanting to say hey look
0:31:22not everybody needs to know what I'm
0:31:24doing all the time then I I think of all
0:31:26the edgy stuff going on in the world
0:31:29today i think that's pretty excusable to
0:31:31say that they hate you know what the
0:31:33only way that something like that
0:31:35obfuscation through tor works is if you
0:31:37use it for everything if you only if you
0:31:39have if you have a house if you have a
0:31:41room in your house where you go only to
0:31:43masturbate then that's going to get
0:31:44known as the masturbation room like
0:31:46that's just gonna happen but if you if
0:31:49you have multiple offers her laptop
0:31:51it's called a studio with almost no it's
0:31:56not it's a private studio and I have a
0:31:59fresh blanket plums that's my studio
0:32:01look just nobody goes into my studio
0:32:03that's where i have all my figure
0:32:06figurines action figurines arranged
0:32:10Michelle action figurines like it like
0:32:14camels or lladros of devil
0:32:16ya sure ya anyway I don't know I i feel
0:32:20like i have i'm such an old man in this
0:32:22sense where I i can't help but believe
0:32:24that anything that you expose yourself
0:32:26to repeatedly on purpose will eventually
0:32:28have some kind of an affect on you not
0:32:30you know borough and video games do not
0:32:32caused by I'm not even saying that I'm
0:32:35saying that like you know you can just
0:32:36look no further than anybody who's
0:32:38and like you know look at the career
0:32:40longevity of people who do stuff like
0:32:42you know child protective services or
0:32:45homicide or or anything like that just
0:32:48what you have to have you been doing
0:32:51homicide for 20-plus years now inhabit
0:32:54your belt sir
0:32:55oh I speak coconuts got that they never
0:32:58get tired now
0:33:00now they are they're made of tougher
0:33:02stuff but you know and i think this even
0:33:06as like and I i have obviously i don't
0:33:09know exactly what you're talking about
0:33:10but i can guess it's a lot of probably
0:33:12about human suffering and grossest and I
0:33:15mean I think we've all been interested
0:33:16in things whether even if it's just
0:33:17something like research magazine
0:33:19we're like are you know anymore those
0:33:21those trade paperbacks of research we
0:33:22were like wow it's amazing this guy
0:33:25wants to hang from hooks that's got to
0:33:27be one of the most out-there things I've
0:33:28ever seen but like if you expose
0:33:30yourself to let you know what is
0:33:33something like I just I just think i got
0:33:36i try to be careful about what I expose
0:33:38myself to too often because it will have
0:33:40an impact even if that impact is now i'm
0:33:43a nerd toward you know how base people
0:33:46can be and I started imagining
0:33:47everybody's like that which they're not
0:33:49no no I mean that the horrible stuff is
0:33:53all the stuff words that you know if the
0:33:55research stuff was all very
0:33:57mind-expanding at the time the the the
0:34:00idea that somebody would want to hang
0:34:02from their nipples
0:34:07it wasn't as Bob what's-his-name the
0:34:09super masochist you remember him
0:34:11sure well what's his name but he was
0:34:13everywhere he was like the patron saint
0:34:14of research right yeah that was that was
0:34:17that was those were fun times in
0:34:18interesting times but what can I because
0:34:21when sexual it was like I choose I
0:34:23choose to put a hula hoop in my nipple
0:34:25like the thing I do
0:34:27yeah the internet gives you access to
0:34:28all those people whose whose pleasure is
0:34:31to cause suffering to other people who
0:34:34aren't voluntary volunteering and that
0:34:38some that's the stuff we're just like oh
0:34:40there's no limit to that like the
0:34:43depravity we all there's that there's
0:34:46this crazy thing in our in our culture
0:34:50and I'm
0:34:51I suffer from it too which is that
0:34:53morbid fascination with serial killers
0:34:55and you know and serial killers become a
0:35:00kind of proxy for all of the worst of us
0:35:04and that you know and it it's amazing
0:35:07that hundreds of thousands of people
0:35:10have read detailed accounts of what Ted
0:35:14Bundy did right I'm like I don't know
0:35:18millions of people maybe half and and
0:35:23even what Gary Ridgway did like read
0:35:27those accounts and mold them over and
0:35:31turn them over in their minds and said
0:35:35like wow like awful but also like not so
0:35:43awful that I didn't buy and read this
0:35:47book about it or were like so awful in
0:35:50fact that i bought and read this book
0:35:53about it so it's a little bit i have to
0:35:55be honest is a little bit pornographic
0:35:56cuz i've found myself drawn to that it
0:35:58too and it's why I sometimes ask myself
0:36:00like like you know whether it's that
0:36:03horrible picture of the little boy
0:36:04drowned on the beach that we have all
0:36:06recently seen or whether it's a
0:36:08documentary about the Holocaust I i do
0:36:10try to catch myself and go like is this
0:36:12how much of this is empathetic and how
0:36:14much of this educational how much of
0:36:16this is just purely sensationalistic and
0:36:19verging on pornography
0:36:20well and that's that's what's so crazy
0:36:22because I mean we've talked about the
0:36:24Nazis a lot and the Holocaust alot but
0:36:28but you know the amount of time I've
0:36:30spent imagining what it was like it to
0:36:36that what it was like from the
0:36:38standpoint of almost everybody at
0:36:41Auschwitz like the people who are
0:36:44running it
0:36:45the people who were you going into the
0:36:49showers the people who were clearing out
0:36:51the shower right and and all by way of
0:36:56in some ways understanding what what we
0:37:01are
0:37:03and it ended in forms this worldview
0:37:06that I have that like likes civil and
0:37:10not just civilization but but a good and
0:37:14evil rights and and rules you know
0:37:21they're all systems that we are that we
0:37:24impose upon ourselves and more or less
0:37:26are living according to voluntarily and
0:37:29and they you know like don't don't
0:37:32believe that the dark side is kept at
0:37:34bay by rules the dark side is framed by
0:37:38rule
0:37:39yeah without rules he couldn't make the
0:37:41darkside scalable but but you know but
0:37:43what-what 4chan and what the tour and
0:37:46what the what what the Deep Web showed
0:37:51me was that like the man out of the
0:37:55bonala t of it but also that isn't even
0:37:58descriptive like Bundy was not unusual
0:38:06even and you know and there's
0:38:11just--there's just suffering on on top
0:38:14of suffering in this world suffering
0:38:17that like suffering that we are imposing
0:38:20on people suffering in the form of you
0:38:23think the just millions and millions of
0:38:26people living in in conditions that are
0:38:30are not unimaginable they're very
0:38:33imaginable their witnesses all and yet
0:38:38somehow we compartmentalize those things
0:38:40such that we are able to be so mad about
0:38:45Apple customer service or so mad about
0:38:51the airline's you know and and you know
0:38:57and can you can you can be sitting on an
0:38:59airline so mad about your treatments and
0:39:05open a book where the book is detailing
0:39:08scenarios where bodies are piled upon
0:39:11bodies and you're just like Oh
0:39:16my goodness grotesque you know that was
0:39:1960 years ago or or that's happening
0:39:25right now but in Burma or that's
0:39:27happening right now but in basements all
0:39:30across Russia or something but Mike but
0:39:33I excuse me miss miss my I need more ice
0:39:37in my in my free soda here and I'd end
0:39:44it just it's something that I can't ever
0:39:46I can't ever get a purchase on reality i
0:39:53guess there is no reality and there's
0:39:57only my reality my present reality and
0:40:01you know and maybe that's why i'm up at
0:40:04four thirty in the morning stacking
0:40:05angels on the head of a pin yep could be
0:40:08part of it
0:40:09I don't know I you know I also wonder
0:40:11sometimes how much of it is a form of
0:40:13chasing the dragon which you described
0:40:16as that feeling of especially with
0:40:17heroine of the first the first how you
0:40:19get from that you'll never really
0:40:21replicate without increasing the amount
0:40:23but still don't really be the same and
0:40:25you suck you can't really you can't
0:40:26really replicate that and I wonder if
0:40:28there's just what part of it is that you
0:40:31become one become slightly addicted to
0:40:33something that makes you seem to feel
0:40:35more strongly than you've ever felt
0:40:36before that you know and I'm not putting
0:40:39this in really simple terms because I
0:40:41think there is something to be said for
0:40:42educating yourself about all kinds of
0:40:43stuff in the world that's not savory
0:40:45just knowing about it doesn't mean you
0:40:46agree with it but there is stuff that
0:40:47everybody needs to know about even stuff
0:40:49that's not particularly nice now do you
0:40:52need to spend five hours a night on that
0:40:53I don't know and it depends on what
0:40:56we're talking about i guess but i also
0:40:58think part of it just might be that I
0:41:00don't know that this might sound
0:41:01old-fashioned but I think that the more
0:41:03what you're generally calling rough
0:41:05trade them the more kind of shocking
0:41:07stuff that you expose yourself to the
0:41:09more you want to see and that doesn't
0:41:11just have to be Bob Flanagan super
0:41:13masochist that could also be like what
0:41:15how much crazier is Kanye West gonna get
0:41:18this guy's and not and i have an opinion
0:41:20about it and it seems i think all that
0:41:23serves a kind of addiction kind of
0:41:26addictive personality people have it
0:41:28just it may find more or less objection
0:41:30mol outcomes but i think there's there's
0:41:33something to a lot of people we're
0:41:35always looking for that next thing
0:41:36that's not gonna make them feel this
0:41:38charge get this dopamine hit and it
0:41:41becomes very difficult to pull yourself
0:41:43away from that and you find yourself
0:41:44seeking something that makes makes you
0:41:46feel stronger and stronger until it can
0:41:48become consuming me is that is that is
0:41:51that does that sound like a crazy
0:41:52anti-pornography kind of stance
0:41:54I don't mean it that way but many sounds
0:41:56like sounds like what people would say
0:41:58about pornography i think it's i think
0:42:00it's important for all of us to
0:42:02recognize when we are in an unhealthy
0:42:05relationship with Amy stay any kind of
0:42:08external source of stimulation yeah any
0:42:12stimulus right if you are essentially
0:42:14anything outside of us we're like you
0:42:15like the reason you don't take fucking
0:42:17cold pills because you don't want that
0:42:18right i mean any time where the whatever
0:42:21dragon were chasing there's something
0:42:23out there that we know is potentially
0:42:26capable of giving us a certain kind of
0:42:29surprisingly strong stimulation
0:42:31yeah it's me and it ends up being any
0:42:33time you've been in the hospital where
0:42:35you had a morphine drip and you and you
0:42:38see that you know you've got a button
0:42:40you can push the button and give
0:42:42yourself morphine when you're in pain
0:42:43but the nurses have some governor on it
0:42:47is not just unlimited but there's a big
0:42:54difference between the people that sit
0:42:56and wait until they have kind of one
0:42:59what they can feel the pain is becoming
0:43:01unendurable and then they push the
0:43:03button versus the people that are just
0:43:04like waiting for the button to reup you
0:43:07know they're pushing it all the time and
0:43:09that way for the rehab you know and that
0:43:12is in our culture the whole game
0:43:19I mean everybody out there is waiting
0:43:22for us to you know everybody out there
0:43:25is trying to provide us another
0:43:26opportunity to reup re-up with Star Wars
0:43:30reup with you the next episode of the
0:43:34Americans reup with a cool new you know
0:43:38the cool new shoes that you deserve
0:43:41because you're
0:43:42because you work hard the you know the
0:43:46reup that the buying and the and the
0:43:50pleasing yourself and the pleasuring
0:43:52yourself and and to resist it when it
0:43:56comes from all corners because your
0:44:00Minister on sunday is also like
0:44:03providing a version of it and your
0:44:08parents are providing you versions of it
0:44:11and at its the we have turned it into
0:44:15with fetishized consumption in all walks
0:44:21of life so that just you know to say
0:44:23I've had enough pie I've had a you know
0:44:26No thank you I don't need seconds is not
0:44:32just like to potentially offend the host
0:44:35but to be a radical like a us like to be
0:44:42seditious almost to say no thank you
0:44:45know I do not want to die i cannot i
0:44:50cannot join in the excitement about the
0:44:53new Star Wars not because I'm not kind
0:44:58of excited about the new Star Wars but
0:45:00because there are too many opportunities
0:45:02for it to their you know too many
0:45:06opportunities for that kind of
0:45:07stimulation to to own me
0:45:11yeah yeah and because you're infj right
0:45:14yeah
0:45:16again with the pie um again with the
0:45:19pyrite don't know but like that was it i
0:45:21was using pi in a different way and that
0:45:23y'know I heard the word heart behind and
0:45:26I was like oh sure pie but wait it's a
0:45:28different time a different thing I i get
0:45:32that with video games that's me and
0:45:33video games were like I i have come to
0:45:36realize the video games can be very
0:45:37special and awesome but I i don't i
0:45:40don't mean this in disparaging way but I
0:45:42don't want that in my life because for
0:45:43me to get to the level where i could
0:45:45really enjoy the way my friends enjoy it
0:45:46would take so many hours and days and
0:45:49weeks which i might really enjoy but all
0:45:51I can think about is what I won't be
0:45:53doing when I be doing that and it's an
0:45:55attractive says his hand
0:45:56in law and attractive nuisance like I
0:45:57have that in the house i'm going to feel
0:45:59bad about the fact that I spade $500 for
0:46:02this game box and don't use it or I'm
0:46:03gonna feel terrible about the amount of
0:46:05time i spend my five-hundred-dollar
0:46:06gamebox neither of those four where I am
0:46:08mentally right now are emotionally right
0:46:10now is going to make me feel good about
0:46:11that right but mhm but there's the other
0:46:15like the danger i think in seeing
0:46:19because I'm not somebody that sees
0:46:21tyranny it as a as a conspiratorial you
0:46:27know like a like I'm not worried about
0:46:28outside forces with a gun to my head
0:46:34forcing me to kneel and eat the gruel
0:46:37I don't worry about being colonized know
0:46:40as much as I'm worried about that
0:46:43process of of voluntary submission who
0:46:47and all of the all the small government
0:46:51libertarians up in montana who are
0:46:54worried about obama's jackbooted thugs
0:46:57are strange to me because they are all
0:47:01like greedily gulping at the teat of
0:47:06whoever the proof of the service
0:47:08providers of their own mythology and
0:47:11products and they are buying into and
0:47:15and buying with money all of the
0:47:18accoutrements of their cult thinking
0:47:23with note with no self-awareness right
0:47:26there and and that stuff is the real
0:47:29that that's where your mind is really
0:47:32colonized where you know they are they
0:47:35are the rats tapping on the red button
0:47:37that's that that's satisfying their urge
0:47:41to feel persecuted but so I'm not
0:47:47worried about about the about the ATF
0:47:49coming through the door
0:47:51I'm worried about the heed to what
0:47:56degree I am self-medicating by my
0:48:02consumption of
0:48:04and.and I'm not serial killer porn isn't
0:48:08what I'm worried about
0:48:10and I Anna eventually i'm not sure
0:48:12ultimately I'm not sure what I am
0:48:14worried about because I guard myself so
0:48:17carefully against ever becoming a like a
0:48:27consumer but and so but but but that
0:48:33becomes a a strange kind of addiction
0:48:38the the addiction of like denial and
0:48:41discomfort and like no I will not I will
0:48:45not watch this again even though I want
0:48:48to because i don't want to become a
0:48:50prisoner to it and and so what ends up
0:48:56happening is I remember I used to get
0:48:58into arguments at the University of
0:48:59Washington all the time where I was or
0:49:01what I got back from long long stays in
0:49:04Germany and tried to convince people
0:49:06that there is nothing in contemporary
0:49:08Germany that would that would indicate
0:49:12the Holocaust there's nothing in
0:49:15contemporary Germany that would give you
0:49:17special insight into what happened there
0:49:2470 years ago
0:49:25you cannot detect it you can't detect it
0:49:29in Germans you cannot detect it in the
0:49:31ground is we're talking about like how
0:49:33swastikas have been chipped off the
0:49:35bridges and stuff
0:49:36yeah but the largest have been chipped
0:49:38off of the bridges of their minds to
0:49:40like whatever it was whatever it was
0:49:44that was in the the Germans is not
0:49:48visible in in being friends with Germans
0:49:53in interacting with Germans it's not you
0:49:55don't you don't go to Germany and say oh
0:49:57boy i see it's just they're just they're
0:50:00just playing nice right now but if the
0:50:03opportunity arises they're all going to
0:50:05become monsters again like that is not
0:50:07the case they are as committed to
0:50:10liberal democracy there as anyone in the
0:50:13world and
0:50:15are just as humane as the most like
0:50:22they're just as committed and just as
0:50:26there's nothing in their character that
0:50:32suggests it and so what that says to me
0:50:36is that it is in all of our character
0:50:39all the time they are not just
0:50:42pretending to be liberal democrats there
0:50:44they are deeply Liberal Democrats and so
0:50:51that's not the evidence you know and the
0:50:55fact that it didn't happen in Sweden
0:50:58doesn't make the Swedes superior to the
0:51:01Germans morally or or otherwise and so
0:51:05it's that that impulse to slaughter and
0:51:12that impulse to be rid of impurity and
0:51:16the impulse to systematize not just
0:51:21murder but to systematize in humanity is
0:51:27in us all not even really dormant but
0:51:31just being exercised in different ways
0:51:33you know it's being it's being satisfied
0:51:35in different ways and so it's all of our
0:51:39responsibility to recognize it in
0:51:41ourselves in those small ways and say
0:51:43listen I am the Holocaust is in me I
0:51:46could commit this i am not one of the
0:51:50ones who would have stood stood up and
0:51:54said no I am absolutely one of the ones
0:51:58who would have drawn the blinds and said
0:52:01oh I'm not sure what the smell is that's
0:52:04coming from the forest right you know
0:52:07and and that acknowledgement and the
0:52:12recognition that then it you know it
0:52:14always starts you know that the
0:52:17arguments that we have about like a
0:52:19violent movies don't cause violence and
0:52:21the violent video games don't Colonel
0:52:22cause violence and it's such a it's such
0:52:25a thing on the internet that if you're
0:52:27on the wrong side of it you're
0:52:28like you're some PMRC anti-pornography
0:52:34guess it's kind of a scold scold like
0:52:36you're saying and and and in fact like
0:52:39those things
0:52:41no they do not cause violence they are
0:52:43outlets for this concordance tremendous
0:52:47violence that since all and that's the
0:52:50thing we should always be looking at and
0:52:52thinking about and where because so mean
0:52:57so many people in my experience refused
0:53:01to acknowledge the violence that's in
0:53:03them at all and and so when violence
0:53:09arrives on the scene even in the form of
0:53:12like confrontation about something and
0:53:15in a starbucks line there's all this
0:53:18like all everyone so appalled because
0:53:23we're all so basically civilized because
0:53:25we're civilized now and yet any amount
0:53:28of violence any raised voices or angry
0:53:30looks are this like terrible assault and
0:53:34and we're um and we should be above it
0:53:38but in fact like we each of us and all
0:53:43of us are complicit in murder every day
0:53:46that's that's why didn't interrupt you
0:53:48but this is what keeps everything
0:53:49everything you're saying it's me
0:53:50thinking about something that feels like
0:53:52an elephant in the room you're
0:53:53describing a germany where like you
0:53:55think about most Americans and most
0:53:57American lot of Americans definitely i
0:53:58was growing up with memories of World
0:54:00War two the depending on how you measure
0:54:03it
0:54:04what would that be the you know sixteen
0:54:08to twenty some years that the Nazis had
0:54:13some kind of power and and work we were
0:54:16just they were not just dictating that
0:54:17they had actually you know they had the
0:54:20support of Industry and people but but
0:54:22that was what was that was maybe maybe
0:54:2420 years and we still we still think of
0:54:27yet really 15 16 years and now we still
0:54:30think of like Oh Germany they were the
0:54:31Nazis but what you're describing is a
0:54:33country where it is not simply a matter
0:54:35of having trying trying to obliterate
0:54:37the past but trying to like actively
0:54:38evolved to be different people while at
0:54:41the same time
0:54:42you know I'll be that guy we give
0:54:44ourselves a pass for 400 years of
0:54:46slavery and probably two or three
0:54:49hundred years of slaughtering natives
0:54:51and all kinds of other stuff we're like
0:54:54we give ourselves a pass for that and we
0:54:55look old shoes we look at all these
0:54:57places where people are treated really
0:54:58badly but we don't ever but it isn't as
0:55:01that we stopped the paws with that
0:55:02monster is still in us we know that
0:55:04monster still in Germany because they
0:55:05were the bad guys in World War two but
0:55:07while it may have happened
0:55:10the the worst parts of that kind of
0:55:11racism and colonialism may have happened
0:55:13over a hundred fifty years ago in our
0:55:15case we were pretty good at it and
0:55:18institutionalized it way beyond what the
0:55:20church did we were able to make entire
0:55:22industries out of having slaves but it
0:55:25was a business we talked about it there
0:55:27was no there was no attempt to erase the
0:55:30record of that or burn the books that
0:55:32showed who'd been sold to whom
0:55:33whose child had been sent to another
0:55:35state with no attempt to cover that up
0:55:37because it was evolving so slowly and
0:55:39now today we look at that old that's
0:55:40ancient history but I guess what I'm
0:55:42trying to ask partly his first following
0:55:44us two parts i mean isn't fair to say
0:55:45we've also got that monster and then in
0:55:47second of all do you think we have made
0:55:50the same effort as a modern German would
0:55:52try and actually evolved past either hit
0:55:55your historical monster because it was
0:55:58like we aren't I the I think that I
0:56:01think the scale of time it's so it's so
0:56:06funny that human life is what ninety
0:56:11years and in the course of 90 years like
0:56:16it's the it's the totality of reality
0:56:21right wheel we don't really know that
0:56:25anything that happened before us
0:56:26actually happened right there are some
0:56:28buildings standing around that you
0:56:30you presume were built before you were
0:56:32born but it all seems a little unreal
0:56:34that anything happened before you never
0:56:37been I've never been in Nicaragua but i
0:56:39assume it's real
0:56:40however I've read a lot about it I've
0:56:41never been there either but i assume
0:56:43it's real I've seen pictures and books
0:56:44but you know 90 years is that that's the
0:56:48whole of our real first hand experience
0:56:52and so it seemed everything seemed so
0:56:54important
0:56:55was and we are so um we're so concerned
0:57:00with with a year and five years and 15
0:57:08years but really that you know like
0:57:10almost almost nothing that happens in 15
0:57:18years really you know that really
0:57:21matters or or yet it it's sort of a
0:57:25great man theory of history right that
0:57:27that one person can have this tremendous
0:57:29effect but as the more you zoom out the
0:57:31more you realize it's just waves of of
0:57:37events and there it and it's kind of a
0:57:41myth that that that even Hitler really
0:57:47had that much of an effect but if you if
0:57:50you zoom out and look at it on it on it
0:57:51certainly on a thousand years timeline
0:57:54but up you know on a 10,000 year
0:57:56timeline like he just disappears and and
0:58:02I think about this a lot of it and it
0:58:05gets me in in trouble because like you
0:58:10read the thing
0:58:11not very long ago where that the current
0:58:13thinking is that the trauma of the
0:58:17Holocaust actually is encoded
0:58:19genetically all right in in the
0:58:21survivors in the next generation he said
0:58:23if that's true it basically it changes a
0:58:25lot of what we know about history
0:58:26it changes it absolutely change history
0:58:29but at a certain point like it it in the
0:58:32immediate scale it changes it because it
0:58:34means like oh right the african-american
0:58:36population of the united states has a
0:58:39genetic memory of 400 years of slavery
0:58:45like the Holocaust happened not in 15
0:58:48years the Holocaust largely happened in
0:58:50two years
0:58:52right right and if that was like they
0:58:54had they had that 18 really strong
0:58:56months but it did it was not we you
0:58:58cannot just overlay that with the war i
0:59:00mean it it was really on i'm certainly
0:59:03how absolutely trying to minimize it but
0:59:04it's the the really when the Holocaust
0:59:07or the
0:59:08final solution i should say really got
0:59:10going I mean it wasn't more than three
0:59:12years really right it's not in 42 if
0:59:17that left a genetic imprint on this on
0:59:21surviving generations then slavery
0:59:24I mean was reinforced and reinforced
0:59:29through generation and generation and
0:59:30generation and if that's true then you
0:59:34know then there is something that then
0:59:36there's a genetic record that has been
0:59:39that you know that then starts to be
0:59:43part of natural selection right people
0:59:45are passing that down and passing the
0:59:47reinforcement of it down in generations
0:59:50but if that is true you don't have to
0:59:52zoom out very far to say well that is
0:59:55true of every single person on earth
0:59:57like
0:59:57like
1:00:00the the just in the historical record
1:00:04you can go back and find like well the
1:00:08Scots were brutalized by the English be
1:00:14you know the the thai people are only in
1:00:19Thailand because they were chased out of
1:00:21China 2,000 years ago
1:00:25china's got chinese got some pretty bad
1:00:27treatment from the Japanese right the
1:00:28right and so and so and the you know the
1:00:31the Mongol hordes that swept through
1:00:34Eastern Europe over and over and over
1:00:37again
1:00:39um you know just wiping out cultures
1:00:46after cultures and so then you look at
1:00:49every single human group and you find in
1:00:54their history like incredible trauma at
1:00:59incredible trauma inflicted on them as a
1:01:01group not just individual people and
1:01:04then when when you factor in that every
1:01:07single family has like up probably
1:01:12unmeasurable trauma in their past
1:01:15yeah i mean just I mean just think about
1:01:16even you know so so we we try to measure
1:01:20these kinds of tragedies by the number
1:01:23of people who died and not you can't
1:01:26even really how do you begin to take
1:01:27into account the secondary effects of
1:01:29like all the people you knew who were
1:01:31affected by it or people who let's just
1:01:33be honest the people who were killed as
1:01:35part of that but then let's say you know
1:01:37just having just the PTSD of having
1:01:40lived through that at all even if you
1:01:43came out of it with most of your stuff
1:01:44in your family alive he's still even
1:01:46imagine the PTSD of getting through that
1:01:48experience quote-unquote unscathed
1:01:51you're not unscathed like you'll be
1:01:52scarred forever by that experience for
1:01:54sure and and and I mean imagine
1:01:57surviving a famine where where you watch
1:02:01your children died and you watch your
1:02:03your parents died and you watched your
1:02:06you watch your loved ones died and you
1:02:08survived somehow
1:02:10at if if trauma is encoded in our genes
1:02:14we like our forefathers all of us
1:02:19survived like exponential compounded
1:02:27trauma
1:02:28it's the story of humanity so this is
1:02:30the same people who passed in the
1:02:31Holocaust also where their their
1:02:33grandparents for the victims of programs
1:02:35right and and and back and all the way
1:02:38you know and everyone so trauma so at
1:02:42that point it isn't news because we are
1:02:47all baked out of trauma and and so that
1:02:56is the human story we we are all we all
1:02:59of us have it from there the number of
1:03:03people who can go back 500 years and say
1:03:06no as a matter of fact for the last 500
1:03:08years i come from i come from royal
1:03:14stock and we have all and we we've done
1:03:18nothing but eat the fat of the of the
1:03:21lamb for for 500 years and it's like
1:03:24really you didn't have there was nobody
1:03:26in that family that got early-onset
1:03:29Alzheimer's disease and and turned to
1:03:35generation into like like traumatized
1:03:39generation I'm and and even so that
1:03:42presumes that 500 years of good times
1:03:44erases the 50,000 years of trauma that I
1:03:48seated and I pretty pretty good run
1:03:50there for a while but then that
1:03:51genetically good times kind of get
1:03:55encoded in there too and I mean I
1:03:56presume that they be my stride of trauma
1:03:58drama shows up in the genetic record
1:04:01then then good times and lands aplenty
1:04:04must to and so it does it changes our
1:04:08understanding of history changes our
1:04:10understanding of ourselves but there's
1:04:13no group of people that can say that
1:04:17they have a that that that
1:04:20have some kind of lock on on trauma we
1:04:26just we can see that there are groups in
1:04:27recent history in recent memory who say
1:04:30like yes I personally experienced trauma
1:04:33or my grandmother did but um but it all
1:04:41you know it's all part of the the ones
1:04:45and zeros that make up our whole selves
1:04:49and so right now we're engaged in the
1:04:53civilizing project that's been happening
1:04:57since the end of world war two where
1:05:00we've changed the definition of what
1:05:02civilized is and we've we've all agreed
1:05:08more or less you know on this kind of
1:05:12like what we'd like it to look like but
1:05:15within America obviously we have we have
1:05:18two major different versions of what
1:05:21that looks like and now we're engaged in
1:05:26this like rooting out of of heresy and
1:05:31this this presumption that we can clean
1:05:35ourselves of our impulses to be
1:05:40predatory clean ourselves of our
1:05:43impulses to to hurt one another and to
1:05:46to be greedy and be xenophobic and and
1:05:52to live in fear and to act in fear and
1:05:55we can we can clean that behavior out of
1:05:58us and and walk into this future we
1:06:01imagine where were kind where our
1:06:04natures are kind and where unkindness
1:06:10isn't it you know we go through we go
1:06:12through this difficult birthing period
1:06:14where unkindness isn't tolerated in
1:06:17order to achieve a world where
1:06:18unkindness doesn't occur to us and
1:06:24that's a you know that is a major
1:06:28thought experiment first and
1:06:33and I don't have I don't i'm not sure
1:06:37that it works that way so that's that
1:06:43that's the difficulty I get into looking
1:06:45at history and and then going on the
1:06:49porch and and trying to understand
1:06:52people is just that you know what is our
1:06:56project is it to be is it tip is it to
1:07:00cleanse ourselves and become good
1:07:03sadly that was the impulse the Nazis had
1:07:07to and that was the IMP and that's
1:07:10always been the impulse of all the awful
1:07:12things that we've done in in the last
1:07:14400 years never thought of it that way
1:07:16is like we want to clean ourselves and
1:07:20get to that you know and get to a place
1:07:23where that where the dirtiness doesn't
1:07:25reappear and we're doing it again now
1:07:29and you know and I'm not comparing it to
1:07:35the to the Holocaust but what what's are
1:07:40you know what what do we see what gives
1:07:43us what is the evidence that we can be
1:07:46cleansed that way and and it without
1:07:54that evidence like what's another way of
1:07:58looking at it
1:07:58what's an alternative goal where we stop
1:08:02imagining that we can rid ourselves of
1:08:05evil and stop imagining that we can rid
1:08:07ourselves of violence and start
1:08:10imagining how we can accept those things
1:08:15about ourselves and incorporate those
1:08:18things into into a true clear-eyed
1:08:24understanding of what kind of animals we
1:08:27are but but nobody seems it to engage in
1:08:33that project because you know to presume
1:08:37to presume that were that we can't be
1:08:41perfect is too
1:08:44it is so many people are just like well
1:08:46if we can't be perfect then I don't
1:08:48wanna I don't want to play if week if we
1:08:53can't be perfect then that means too
1:08:57much that means that's there there's too
1:08:59much potential ugliness and so so
1:09:03instead i prefer to believe that we can
1:09:05be perfect and and and and that begins
1:09:09that should begin with my neighbors
1:09:12ok that perfect tap for impulse two
1:09:15perfect people is going to start with me
1:09:17trying to perfect my neighbors and it's
1:09:22just like oh here we go again
1:09:24I typical muscle in my shoulder
1:09:35where's my perfect your fucking getting
1:09:41old
1:09:42you're falling apart right in front of
1:09:43us were already cut the show everybody
1:09:45can hear it nothing but never air kind
1:09:48of please get a fresh blanket over here