Roderick on the Line

Ep. 163: "The Maisie Glotz File"


00:00:00   this episode of Roderick on the line is [TS]

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00:00:13   [Music] [TS]

00:00:18   hello hi John [TS]

00:00:22   hi Merlin was goin it's good i'm just [TS]

00:00:26   sitting here looking at my skype a [TS]

00:00:28   account here and it seems like squirting [TS]

00:00:31   dot flirts 3 has tried to connect with [TS]

00:00:35   me is a nice guy you should totally [TS]

00:00:36   accept it [TS]

00:00:37   squirting flirts 30 sorry scoring [TS]

00:00:40   threats 33 m now in scoring first nine [TS]

00:00:43   is a regular guy [TS]

00:00:45   yeah well I'm not sure whether so skype [TS]

00:00:47   offers me he's got just a leg avatar but [TS]

00:00:50   skype says I can block him to decline [TS]

00:00:53   the connection or accept it [TS]

00:00:56   what do I lean toward I mean block and [TS]

00:01:00   decline are both just died of a kind of [TS]

00:01:03   having a hard time deciding between the [TS]

00:01:05   two except feels a little bit close [TS]

00:01:08   I don't I feel like yeah he wants to [TS]

00:01:12   connect with me a lot of people want to [TS]

00:01:13   connect with me i don't i don't accept [TS]

00:01:16   all those offers but i'm not sure i want [TS]

00:01:18   to block him [TS]

00:01:20   yeah I mean it's kind of provocative to [TS]

00:01:21   block yeah right it seems like I know [TS]

00:01:24   something about this person from their [TS]

00:01:26   name squirting flirts 3i know enough to [TS]

00:01:30   block them you know you think maybe [TS]

00:01:33   maybe he had a grandfather and father [TS]

00:01:36   that were the began the tradition [TS]

00:01:37   there's somebody Florence's yeah like [TS]

00:01:40   squirting squirts senior squirting [TS]

00:01:41   flirts jr. that's like a terrible comic [TS]

00:01:45   book i think i'm going to decline let's [TS]

00:01:47   just get this off the table [TS]

00:01:49   yeah you know Merlin it may surprise you [TS]

00:01:51   to know that there are a lot of people [TS]

00:01:53   who are very invested in conventional [TS]

00:01:58   narratives there are a lot of people who [TS]

00:02:02   are very invested in conventional [TS]

00:02:04   narrative that's what makes them [TS]

00:02:06   conventional narratives oh yeah see it's [TS]

00:02:09   all the investment of all those people [TS]

00:02:11   little bit of drift here can you can [TS]

00:02:13   give me some help [TS]

00:02:14   food well here I haven't got a clue you [TS]

00:02:18   know just very open with squirting [TS]

00:02:20   flirts [TS]

00:02:21   yeah 3 um yeah according to 340 got to [TS]

00:02:25   learn about in like a like a literary [TS]

00:02:26   tradition or like understanding how the [TS]

00:02:28   world works yeah I feel like I feel like [TS]

00:02:30   conventional narrative [TS]

00:02:31   gives it a in terms of understanding how [TS]

00:02:34   the world works in terms of applying our [TS]

00:02:37   our muscle our human muscle to making [TS]

00:02:42   the world better conventional narratives [TS]

00:02:45   tend to dominate over say old alternate [TS]

00:02:50   alternative narratives ok let's that's [TS]

00:02:54   all that's all that's all I'm saying [TS]

00:02:57   point goes to John right i mean that's [TS]

00:02:59   that's not a not a tennis match it's an [TS]

00:03:02   example of an unconventional narrative [TS]

00:03:03   unconventional narratives you mean like [TS]

00:03:07   where this story people are looking for [TS]

00:03:09   certain kinds of templates for how [TS]

00:03:11   things go with good guys and bad guys [TS]

00:03:13   and yeah endings and comebacks and stuff [TS]

00:03:15   yeah yeah I think I think the one that [TS]

00:03:17   that gets that gets me more often than [TS]

00:03:21   not is the is the is the cult of [TS]

00:03:23   expertise we've talked about this the [TS]

00:03:26   idea in American life that that there [TS]

00:03:30   are experts and those experts have [TS]

00:03:34   special knowledge but by virtue of their [TS]

00:03:36   of their expertise their education and [TS]

00:03:39   their their experience and of course [TS]

00:03:45   there are experts of course there is [TS]

00:03:47   specialized knowledge but we-we-we give [TS]

00:03:51   experts that the transference principal [TS]

00:03:56   too often applies right that that [TS]

00:03:58   because someone is an expert in mollusks [TS]

00:04:01   say we assume that they are an expert in [TS]

00:04:04   a in all the biological sciences or we [TS]

00:04:09   assume that with it we we allow them to [TS]

00:04:11   speak on behalf of all French people [TS]

00:04:16   right because they are an expert in [TS]

00:04:18   mollusks we presume that they can speak [TS]

00:04:21   for french people and it rather than [TS]

00:04:25   find just a normal French person or a [TS]

00:04:29   couple of French people maybe without [TS]

00:04:31   even exactly checking their credentials [TS]

00:04:33   as a mollusk expert right and that's the [TS]

00:04:36   other thing like what does it take to be [TS]

00:04:38   a mosque experts right is there a lot of [TS]

00:04:41   competition [TS]

00:04:42   I mean I've seen a lot of people get [TS]

00:04:44   through [TS]

00:04:45   many many years of college who who are [TS]

00:04:50   barely barely capable of remembering to [TS]

00:04:53   breathe regularly right i mean they have [TS]

00:04:56   to stay have to have to have to remind [TS]

00:04:58   themselves [TS]

00:04:59   breathe in breathe out but they have [TS]

00:05:01   advanced degrees and I think I mean not [TS]

00:05:04   i'm sure i am absolutely certain looking [TS]

00:05:08   at the demographics of our listeners [TS]

00:05:10   that they're out there somewhere right [TS]

00:05:12   now is a mollusk expert listen people [TS]

00:05:16   don't have to speak up right and i bet [TS]

00:05:18   you boys and your out your sweaty flirt [TS]

00:05:20   I think that bismallah can squirt I [TS]

00:05:22   think no that's right and what is a [TS]

00:05:24   mollusk word called the flirts alright [TS]

00:05:27   that's from the French yeah so maybe [TS]

00:05:30   squirting flirts was trying maybe that's [TS]

00:05:31   I don't know maybe maybe this is a [TS]

00:05:34   little time travel a little ripping the [TS]

00:05:36   time-travel scheme where I was like who [TS]

00:05:39   I was talking to squirt influence in the [TS]

00:05:40   future and now i'm going to not back in [TS]

00:05:42   the past and he's here to kill Sarah [TS]

00:05:44   Connor come with me if you want to get [TS]

00:05:46   better you French maybe yeah no time [TS]

00:05:52   must write i bet you that the mollusk [TS]

00:05:55   expert the contacts us lives in Tasmania [TS]

00:05:59   mmm i think we still got pretty deep [TS]

00:06:02   penetration with the Germans yeah but [TS]

00:06:04   you know the Germans I think the Germans [TS]

00:06:06   listen to podcasts I think they do and I [TS]

00:06:08   think that they like mollusks and I [TS]

00:06:10   don't know why the French get all the [TS]

00:06:11   mollusk eating credit [TS]

00:06:13   yeah right the Germans they have a [TS]

00:06:15   famine ocean-front emotion from property [TS]

00:06:18   there [TS]

00:06:18   yeah they mostly use it to build v2 [TS]

00:06:20   rockets but i have found myself moving [TS]

00:06:26   into now that I do cancel Chancellor [TS]

00:06:29   kisa my whole way of thinking about the [TS]

00:06:31   world is becoming really interesting [TS]

00:06:32   here now is it true that he is argument [TS]

00:06:35   to do [TS]

00:06:35   no I don't think so no but you know I [TS]

00:06:38   can't wait to get together but oh my god [TS]

00:06:40   I'm so looking forward to that on but I [TS]

00:06:42   don't know I this is something that's [TS]

00:06:43   kind of dog me for a long time is you [TS]

00:06:45   know all the various kinds of 21 think [TS]

00:06:49   of them as logical fallacies or [TS]

00:06:51   cognitive biases but like all things [TS]

00:06:53   that we walk around automatically [TS]

00:06:56   thinking and doing without ever really [TS]

00:06:58   value [TS]

00:06:58   anything like whether they're true or [TS]

00:07:00   like why we might be getting it wrong [TS]

00:07:02   because i think it has it has [TS]

00:07:03   consequences you know its ramifications [TS]

00:07:05   you know in the same way that are kind [TS]

00:07:07   of poor thinking can lead us to feel [TS]

00:07:09   anxious and depressed I think poor [TS]

00:07:11   thinking whether that's as a person or [TS]

00:07:12   citizen or whatever logical fallacies or [TS]

00:07:15   was the other one [TS]

00:07:17   cognitive disconnects no idea biases [TS]

00:07:20   Yaga Tobias's and I mean you take [TS]

00:07:22   something as it's one of those things [TS]

00:07:24   that's always hiding in plain sight and [TS]

00:07:25   why bring it up here is something like [TS]

00:07:27   the confirmation bias which is the idea [TS]

00:07:29   that you tend to seek out information [TS]

00:07:31   you seek out and then believe [TS]

00:07:34   information that confirms what you [TS]

00:07:35   believe [TS]

00:07:36   rather than makes you doubt what you [TS]

00:07:37   believe which i think is there's [TS]

00:07:39   probably a tribal impulse for like why [TS]

00:07:41   we do that in a lot of ways there's a [TS]

00:07:42   self-preservation aspect to that whether [TS]

00:07:44   its preservation of life for yourself [TS]

00:07:46   I think there's reasons I'm sorry [TS]

00:07:47   selling french philosopher but like I've [TS]

00:07:48   been thinking about this a lot because [TS]

00:07:50   we talked about like conventional and [TS]

00:07:51   unconventional narratives I think that's [TS]

00:07:53   because they're or reliance on experts [TS]

00:07:56   and certainly there's the appeal to [TS]

00:07:57   Authority all those different kinds of [TS]

00:07:58   logical fallacies we're like everything [TS]

00:08:01   all the pieces in our world stay fit [TS]

00:08:04   together much easier if we can find the [TS]

00:08:06   stories that keep telling us what we [TS]

00:08:08   already think or tell us what we already [TS]

00:08:09   believe what you tell us what we already [TS]

00:08:11   reckon then I mean I know this isn't far [TS]

00:08:14   from the first person to bring this up [TS]

00:08:15   but once you start really thinking about [TS]

00:08:17   those things and you can you kind of [TS]

00:08:18   have to think about those things because [TS]

00:08:20   you're you're fighting inertia or [TS]

00:08:21   momentum or velocity your but you've got [TS]

00:08:25   it you've got to fight all of those [TS]

00:08:27   narratives or counter those narratives [TS]

00:08:28   everyday like do you really want the [TS]

00:08:31   weird rock and roll candidate well first [TS]

00:08:32   of all let's talk about whether i really [TS]

00:08:33   am the weird rock and roll can didn't [TS]

00:08:35   remember but i don't know it because I I [TS]

00:08:37   don't know I'm starting to think more [TS]

00:08:39   and more that like that a certain kind [TS]

00:08:42   of self-doubt is a very healthy thing to [TS]

00:08:44   have [TS]

00:08:45   well and self-doubt is precisely the [TS]

00:08:47   thing that we do not have a culturally [TS]

00:08:50   away to a prize or or or rate you know [TS]

00:08:56   like self doubt it [TS]

00:08:59   in politics there's no room for [TS]

00:09:02   self-doubt they're just it and and the [TS]

00:09:06   the more successful you know the the [TS]

00:09:10   bigger the race and the more successful [TS]

00:09:11   the [TS]

00:09:12   home of politicians you get into the [TS]

00:09:14   more all of their self-doubt is all of [TS]

00:09:17   their expressed self-doubt is couched in [TS]

00:09:21   this sort of like here is the [TS]

00:09:24   self-effacement part of the program [TS]

00:09:26   where it turns out at the end that [TS]

00:09:29   self-effacement is actually a charming [TS]

00:09:32   uh you know charming strength that the [TS]

00:09:35   candidate has there's there's there's no [TS]

00:09:38   there's no opportunity for someone [TS]

00:09:40   running for public office to genuinely [TS]

00:09:42   say not only do I not know but i may be [TS]

00:09:46   wrong right and I'm and that's that that [TS]

00:09:50   sounds that sounds like trouble [TS]

00:09:53   yeah right and and and so you put [TS]

00:09:55   somebody up you know you put somebody up [TS]

00:09:56   at a an elector and they say well not [TS]

00:09:59   only do I not know about that but i but [TS]

00:10:01   I have some feelings about it and I may [TS]

00:10:03   be wrong you sound like an ignorant [TS]

00:10:07   dummy you selling somebody who doesn't [TS]

00:10:09   know about something and it's surprising [TS]

00:10:11   that you would even minute that like [TS]

00:10:12   that shows that you're not particularly [TS]

00:10:13   bright yeah and then the next you know [TS]

00:10:15   then your opponent stands up and says I [TS]

00:10:17   know about this and I've definitely not [TS]

00:10:18   wrong and everybody applauds and in [TS]

00:10:22   every other aspect of life and [TS]

00:10:25   particularly like the way that that [TS]

00:10:26   we're trending we want people to be able [TS]

00:10:29   to say I mean this is kind of the whole [TS]

00:10:31   the whole question about the way that we [TS]

00:10:34   are sort of lecturing ourselves now and [TS]

00:10:39   and and really pointedly engaging people [TS]

00:10:43   when they speak ignorantly or or [TS]

00:10:46   insensitively and saying like know you [TS]

00:10:49   you know not acceptable you have to you [TS]

00:10:52   have to wonder are we do we genuinely [TS]

00:10:54   hope that they change or are we just [TS]

00:10:57   trying to we're just trying to destroy [TS]

00:11:00   people that are that would disagree with [TS]

00:11:02   us and I believe we hope we actually [TS]

00:11:04   hope that they can change but that [TS]

00:11:06   present that that then requires of us [TS]

00:11:09   that we accept it when people say I was [TS]

00:11:12   wrong right I was wrong and I've thought [TS]

00:11:15   about it and I've talked to a lot of [TS]

00:11:16   people I've read some things I realized [TS]

00:11:18   I was wrong it's hard for me to make [TS]

00:11:20   this change [TS]

00:11:21   and I'm trying to make this change and [TS]

00:11:24   so we have to allow for that we have to [TS]

00:11:27   accept it and too often you get people [TS]

00:11:30   that I I feel like we have this like a [TS]

00:11:33   bicameral tendency to say you're wrong [TS]

00:11:37   and you need to learn and the person [TS]

00:11:39   goes well I'm I you're right and I'm [TS]

00:11:41   trying to learn and then we said nobody [TS]

00:11:43   can change but why would expect you to [TS]

00:11:46   say that [TS]

00:11:46   yeah you can't really change and so what [TS]

00:11:50   it turns out is that we don't we're not [TS]

00:11:51   trying to educate check people or make [TS]

00:11:53   the world better we're just trying to [TS]

00:11:54   identify heretics [TS]

00:11:56   well that's part of what makes that [TS]

00:11:57   statement which may be true but it may [TS]

00:12:00   be a true statement sometimes but still [TS]

00:12:02   it really makes me pressing when people [TS]

00:12:04   say you know wow [TS]

00:12:06   whether it's something about raising [TS]

00:12:07   awareness or it's about education and I [TS]

00:12:11   feel like the second one in particular [TS]

00:12:12   is a real code word maybe might be a [TS]

00:12:14   kind of dog whistle which is that more [TS]

00:12:16   people need to think like like I do what [TS]

00:12:19   that really means because because I [TS]

00:12:20   don't think in your kind of getting at [TS]

00:12:22   one of the bias problems which is that [TS]

00:12:25   when we go out there and educate the [TS]

00:12:26   world what we're really i mean how much [TS]

00:12:28   are we learning three new things for [TS]

00:12:30   everything that we teach somebody else [TS]

00:12:32   oh yeah because we're sure interested in [TS]

00:12:34   getting everybody else fixed but like [TS]

00:12:36   where we're so certain about that need [TS]

00:12:38   for that education that we may be [TS]

00:12:39   closing out a lot of information that [TS]

00:12:41   can educate us it's true and you know [TS]

00:12:42   one of the things over the years right [TS]

00:12:45   that has characterized me is the fact [TS]

00:12:47   that i speak very emphatically right I [TS]

00:12:51   say when I say something I say it in a [TS]

00:12:54   tone of voice and with the phraseology [TS]

00:12:56   that suggests that i am and i'm very [TS]

00:13:00   confident about what I'm saying and at [TS]

00:13:03   as listeners to our program no I say [TS]

00:13:06   things confidently and then I say other [TS]

00:13:09   things confidently and that confidence [TS]

00:13:11   is is is a tone and it's also probably a [TS]

00:13:14   defense mechanism that I learned as a [TS]

00:13:16   kid to you know to to to masquerade as [TS]

00:13:21   confidence or whatever but it sells at [TS]

00:13:23   all and also stems from like I'm [TS]

00:13:25   thinking across a lot of terrain but i'm [TS]

00:13:30   also wrong i'm often wrong deeply [TS]

00:13:33   profoundly wrong [TS]

00:13:35   and a lot of that I a lot of that [TS]

00:13:39   emphatically speaking is really a [TS]

00:13:42   projection of the fact that the voices [TS]

00:13:44   in my head or you know my my my [TS]

00:13:46   relationship with myself [TS]

00:13:49   yes it is extremely self critical so [TS]

00:13:52   there are there's a chorus of voices [TS]

00:13:55   saying you are wrong all the time to be [TS]

00:13:58   and once when I say something out loud [TS]

00:14:01   that seems like I'm pretty you know I'm [TS]

00:14:02   definitive like you've always thought [TS]

00:14:04   that and always will and everybody [TS]

00:14:06   should agree is the implication [TS]

00:14:08   yeah but in fact you know I'm just [TS]

00:14:10   trying to shout down all the different [TS]

00:14:12   people all the different means who are [TS]

00:14:15   saying you should go back you should [TS]

00:14:18   crawl back into the hole he came out and [TS]

00:14:21   so but you know to to be in your forties [TS]

00:14:24   and to continue to be flexible and [TS]

00:14:27   continue to say like I I know more now [TS]

00:14:32   than I did even a year ago about so many [TS]

00:14:36   things and some of those things really [TS]

00:14:38   challenged stuff i had thought for [TS]

00:14:41   decades [TS]

00:14:42   I mean but because you know just because [TS]

00:14:46   those things were challenging doesn't [TS]

00:14:47   mean I stuck my head in the ground and [TS]

00:14:51   now I've changed the way I think about [TS]

00:14:53   stuff but to took to go up and stand on [TS]

00:14:58   the you know in public and say that when [TS]

00:15:02   you're next to people who are who are [TS]

00:15:05   saying I've always felt this way I [TS]

00:15:07   always will feel this way this is the [TS]

00:15:09   this is the only way to feel which is [TS]

00:15:12   you know kind of what we ask of [TS]

00:15:14   candidates you have one minute to speak [TS]

00:15:16   shower us with confidence and make us [TS]

00:15:19   feel like make us feel like you are [TS]

00:15:22   deeply capable and and full of expertise [TS]

00:15:26   so you know the conventional narrative [TS]

00:15:28   of who we want to lead us is that we [TS]

00:15:34   want you know we want leaders without [TS]

00:15:37   doubt right and then but in every other [TS]

00:15:39   aspect of life we recognize that people [TS]

00:15:41   without doubt our are dangerous people [TS]

00:15:45   without doubt our are unhealthy both [TS]

00:15:48   they are personally unhealthy and [TS]

00:15:50   they're unhealthy for us like never [TS]

00:15:52   follow a leader that doesn't express [TS]

00:15:54   doubt seems to be something we should [TS]

00:15:57   teach we should teach ourselves and [TS]

00:16:00   teach our kids because it i'm trying to [TS]

00:16:03   think of the implications of that and I [TS]

00:16:05   can't get away from the personal aspect [TS]

00:16:06   of this which is that we feel like [TS]

00:16:08   everybody else should be endlessly [TS]

00:16:09   flexible about learning the things that [TS]

00:16:11   we're flexible about but I think on a [TS]

00:16:13   personal level [TS]

00:16:14   yeah and so the problem is though if you [TS]

00:16:16   had a candidate for public figure or [TS]

00:16:17   somebody who was there aren't that many [TS]

00:16:21   people in a position of power who are [TS]

00:16:24   doing what you what you're saying [TS]

00:16:25   because they may like that personally in [TS]

00:16:28   somebody who's being who they are [TS]

00:16:29   correcting but they wouldn't want that [TS]

00:16:31   in a leader you know you wouldn't want [TS]

00:16:33   because that got you pretty soon you go [TS]

00:16:34   straight from I'm trying to keep an open [TS]

00:16:37   mind and learn to you know evolve and [TS]

00:16:39   adapt you go straight from that to like [TS]

00:16:41   well you're a flip-flopper [TS]

00:16:42   yeah a flip-flopper or somebody you know [TS]

00:16:45   without those without those true [TS]

00:16:48   convictions you still you still [TS]

00:16:50   developing you're not ready to be a [TS]

00:16:51   leader yet because you're still figuring [TS]

00:16:52   all this out [TS]

00:16:53   you're still figuring it out that's [TS]

00:16:54   right and to get back to us when you [TS]

00:16:56   have it all figured out that it's [TS]

00:16:59   exactly right and and and and the idea [TS]

00:17:02   that we the idea that there is such a [TS]

00:17:06   thing right i mean they're absolutely [TS]

00:17:09   our experts about mollusks you just get [TS]

00:17:11   it they just not only have they studied [TS]

00:17:13   all them the molesky mean [TS]

00:17:17   valves all the valves they know all I [TS]

00:17:21   valves you get your other valves but [TS]

00:17:23   they also get them you know what I mean [TS]

00:17:25   like they feel they they have a they [TS]

00:17:28   were just made to know about mollusks [TS]

00:17:31   and they you know they rise to the top [TS]

00:17:35   of their field but but they have a very [TS]

00:17:39   very [TS]

00:17:40   constrained realm of knowledge right [TS]

00:17:44   they know about a thing they know about [TS]

00:17:47   this thing and that's also true [TS]

00:17:50   that's also true in the realms of public [TS]

00:17:53   policy and law and you know there are [TS]

00:17:55   people that are just expert tort lawyers [TS]

00:17:58   and there are people that are expert a [TS]

00:18:01   transportation engineers and and when [TS]

00:18:06   that would we talked about this when i [TS]

00:18:08   went on that USO tour where you get [TS]

00:18:13   these lieutenant Colonel's that just [TS]

00:18:14   experts in being a lieutenant colonel in [TS]

00:18:19   the US Air Force like you know so much [TS]

00:18:21   more I mean you as a kid you could [TS]

00:18:24   identify plane shapes you know planes by [TS]

00:18:26   the shape in the sky [TS]

00:18:27   you know more about ships and planes [TS]

00:18:30   then certain probably ninety percent of [TS]

00:18:32   americans but you know less about the [TS]

00:18:35   specifics than any of the people on that [TS]

00:18:36   base right way way less about about [TS]

00:18:39   certain you know like I walked in to [TS]

00:18:42   those bases and I was like so you know [TS]

00:18:44   that m60 and everybody laughed we [TS]

00:18:46   haven't used as a 30-year yeah that's [TS]

00:18:48   right just like shit but you know but [TS]

00:18:50   what happens is that you take that [TS]

00:18:52   lieutenant colonel in the US Air Force [TS]

00:18:54   who knows absolutely everything about [TS]

00:18:57   being a lieutenant colonel in the US Air [TS]

00:19:00   Force and you put him up against and [TS]

00:19:03   then he decides to run for the US House [TS]

00:19:06   of Representatives and he's running [TS]

00:19:08   against somebody who you know let it [TS]

00:19:13   isn't even an artist but let's just say [TS]

00:19:14   is somebody who's had his run-up series [TS]

00:19:17   of a you know a series of successful [TS]

00:19:20   businesses is a you know is a [TS]

00:19:24   cross-country bicycle racer and you know [TS]

00:19:28   in a father of four and and a member of [TS]

00:19:31   the Kiwanis Club and and the [TS]

00:19:34   lieutenant-colonel just looks more [TS]

00:19:36   impressive he just looks and seems more [TS]

00:19:39   capable because he's achieved this [TS]

00:19:42   status and this expertise but in you [TS]

00:19:46   know in fact he just he just knows how [TS]

00:19:48   to run things within that [TS]

00:19:50   very constrained world you know and they [TS]

00:19:53   and the generalist the the person that [TS]

00:19:56   is you know the woman that came up and [TS]

00:19:59   put herself through law school and then [TS]

00:20:01   decided not to be a lawyer but instead [TS]

00:20:03   decided to be a chef and then she worked [TS]

00:20:07   as a chef for a while and then she [TS]

00:20:08   bought a hotel and then she decided you [TS]

00:20:11   know she sold the hotel and and decided [TS]

00:20:14   to run for Congress [TS]

00:20:16   it's like that is the person that [TS]

00:20:18   interest me like like she's the one that [TS]

00:20:23   I would want as our elected [TS]

00:20:24   representative because the lieutenant [TS]

00:20:27   colonel is going to get into the US [TS]

00:20:28   Congress and he's gonna he's going to [TS]

00:20:30   succeed insofar as the Congress runs [TS]

00:20:34   like the Air Force and and and then he's [TS]

00:20:41   going to try to modify the Congress to [TS]

00:20:42   be more like the air force because [TS]

00:20:45   that's the thing is how to run because [TS]

00:20:46   that's the thing and that you know and [TS]

00:20:47   and within the context of becoming a [TS]

00:20:49   lieutenant colonel in the Air Force you [TS]

00:20:51   it's the rare individual and I know a [TS]

00:20:53   couple of them who remained [TS]

00:20:56   intellectually flexible there but like [TS]

00:20:59   the air force or the prosecutor's office [TS]

00:21:03   or the I mean it even even the Sierra [TS]

00:21:08   Club like they have institutional [TS]

00:21:11   character and if you spend your whole [TS]

00:21:15   career in those places you just you're [TS]

00:21:18   not you're discouraged from remaining [TS]

00:21:21   flexible you're encouraged to to harden [TS]

00:21:25   around those core values that make [TS]

00:21:29   people seem really principles even right [TS]

00:21:34   i mean right they they start to they [TS]

00:21:38   start to bleed over into the areas of of [TS]

00:21:41   like FX where it seems like well that [TS]

00:21:43   person's incredibly ethical they have [TS]

00:21:45   never deviated from the from the from [TS]

00:21:49   the party line of of the organization [TS]

00:21:54   that they represent and so so we we know [TS]

00:21:57   we can trust them [TS]

00:21:59   and I i find somebody who has done 25 [TS]

00:22:05   different things and kind and some of [TS]

00:22:07   them were failures [TS]

00:22:08   you know I just I think I intrinsically [TS]

00:22:10   trust a person like that more because [TS]

00:22:14   they they just bring actual you know [TS]

00:22:20   Brian I guess it's back to the breath [TS]

00:22:21   versus depth question but like we don't [TS]

00:22:24   have a way our culture to to measure [TS]

00:22:27   breadth of experience in a in a in am [TS]

00:22:31   you know with with a similar yardstick [TS]

00:22:35   as depth of experience you know you [TS]

00:22:38   can't put the two side-by-side and do an [TS]

00:22:41   accurate comparison [TS]

00:22:44   yeah I i I'm gonna take the personal [TS]

00:22:47   angle on this which is and state the [TS]

00:22:49   obvious which is that I think I think [TS]

00:22:52   what we as people with something that [TS]

00:22:55   concerns us as people is like you are [TS]

00:22:58   talking about how like we like we would [TS]

00:23:00   like to think that a certain amount of [TS]

00:23:01   self-doubt is very healthy because that [TS]

00:23:03   means it doesn't mean that you don't [TS]

00:23:04   believe in things it means you're open [TS]

00:23:06   to the idea that even your own [TS]

00:23:07   perceptions could be wrong sometimes and [TS]

00:23:09   that you can't trust your own intellect [TS]

00:23:10   in an unchanged state to always be [TS]

00:23:12   correct like that sounds like something [TS]

00:23:14   that a reason intellectual adult person [TS]

00:23:16   would happily do as part of having you [TS]

00:23:19   know a life of the mind in some ways but [TS]

00:23:21   the truth is that most of us are [TS]

00:23:23   embarrassed about being wrong and we are [TS]

00:23:26   fearful of being seen being wrong and [TS]

00:23:30   this could you could talk about [TS]

00:23:31   candidates and leaders but we also just [TS]

00:23:33   talk about our parents we don't want our [TS]

00:23:35   parents to be wrong or to be unsure or [TS]

00:23:39   to be emotional or to be you know influx [TS]

00:23:42   you know I remember my mom get a new [TS]

00:23:43   haircut me crying for two days you know [TS]

00:23:46   and and so when you look at a leader you [TS]

00:23:48   know part of being a leader is having [TS]

00:23:50   that kind of resolution to what you say [TS]

00:23:52   where it doesn't Brooke any any [TS]

00:23:53   self-doubt they have to say something [TS]

00:23:55   that sounds like it'll be true forever [TS]

00:23:57   and could be you know carved in stone on [TS]

00:23:59   a monument [TS]

00:24:00   yeah and I'm starting to have some it [TS]

00:24:02   some new insight and I think it's time [TS]

00:24:05   to get real inside that this is actually [TS]

00:24:07   a white male problem [TS]

00:24:11   you think I mean that like honestly like [TS]

00:24:15   a way that was the way that we are [TS]

00:24:16   taught to think and the way that we [TS]

00:24:18   talked like recapitulates this problem [TS]

00:24:25   and it's one of the it's one of the [TS]

00:24:28   reasons that more diversity in public [TS]

00:24:31   office is just intrinsically healthy [TS]

00:24:34   because not all cultures have that you [TS]

00:24:40   know that massive dependence on [TS]

00:24:42   Authority authoritative voice there's a [TS]

00:24:46   lot you know I've been going around to [TS]

00:24:48   community meetings for the last several [TS]

00:24:50   months and sitting in the room and on a [TS]

00:24:52   folding chair and kind of just listening [TS]

00:24:54   to the way different communities and [TS]

00:24:56   Seattle talk to each other and and it's [TS]

00:24:59   it's weird because being sometimes being [TS]

00:25:02   the only white guy in the room there is [TS]

00:25:05   a little bit of the Heisenberg a yeah [TS]

00:25:09   even your presence there changes the [TS]

00:25:11   discourse [TS]

00:25:11   yeah just changes the changes in a [TS]

00:25:13   little bit but i'll but i mean i guess [TS]

00:25:15   probably a lot initially but then as [TS]

00:25:18   everybody gets comfortable with me being [TS]

00:25:20   there or or they realize like you know [TS]

00:25:23   that I'm not a white demon and and the [TS]

00:25:26   conversation starts to heat up or it [TS]

00:25:28   starts to move around the room in a in a [TS]

00:25:30   in an electrical way you I realize that [TS]

00:25:34   other other communities just don't talk [TS]

00:25:36   the same way that is that they that each [TS]

00:25:40   other do or that you know certainly like [TS]

00:25:42   the normal room full of Seattle white [TS]

00:25:45   people talk and there's a lot more [TS]

00:25:47   opportunity for people to say it in [TS]

00:25:49   real-time say like you know what you [TS]

00:25:51   just convinced me I was wrong and and [TS]

00:25:55   and you know and nobody like leans over [TS]

00:25:59   and puts a hand on their shoulder and [TS]

00:26:01   goes right on man you know it's just [TS]

00:26:02   part it's it's just accepted it [TS]

00:26:04   it's part of the conversational flow so [TS]

00:26:08   so yeah it's a i think i think one of [TS]

00:26:15   the solutions to that to this problem is [TS]

00:26:17   is greater diversity of of thinking but [TS]

00:26:20   but all I feel like it's this though the [TS]

00:26:23   white male problem [TS]

00:26:24   has infected american cultural life in a [TS]

00:26:27   way that's going to be hard to to rattle [TS]

00:26:29   out in making an argument here in the [TS]

00:26:32   next couple years but I'm definitely you [TS]

00:26:35   know i'm i'm definitely a i was [TS]

00:26:38   surprised and continue to be surprised [TS]

00:26:41   at how much institutional hostility [TS]

00:26:45   there was directed at the idea that had [TS]

00:26:51   that a generalist had a had value [TS]

00:26:55   relative to you know that the the words [TS]

00:27:01   that keep coming up or like pragmatism [TS]

00:27:03   and and incremental ism almost I mean [TS]

00:27:13   that I don't think they would use those [TS]

00:27:15   words to describe themselves but you [TS]

00:27:17   know the people and their it's [TS]

00:27:18   realpolitik that the idea that things [TS]

00:27:21   need to get done a certain way they [TS]

00:27:23   can't nothing can happen fast it all has [TS]

00:27:25   to you know it all has to proceed [TS]

00:27:28   according to this pace and that somebody [TS]

00:27:31   from outside doesn't just can't [TS]

00:27:32   understand and is actually dangerous you [TS]

00:27:37   know that the idea that you turn [TS]

00:27:38   somebody loose in City Hall in there in [TS]

00:27:42   there like floppy juggalo clown have to [TS]

00:27:47   run down the hall and say like free [TS]

00:27:49   money for everybody you know and they [TS]

00:27:51   may legislate yeah and it would just be [TS]

00:27:54   like they have to take they have to take [TS]

00:27:55   the new council person down in the [TS]

00:27:57   basement and him with rubber truncheons [TS]

00:27:58   until they you know until they pull the [TS]

00:28:02   clarence thomas and just sat on the [TS]

00:28:04   bench for the next 25 years without [TS]

00:28:05   saying anything listen just vote the [TS]

00:28:09   Italian guy sitting next to just vote [TS]

00:28:11   with him who um but I think there's [TS]

00:28:16   something comforting about the the [TS]

00:28:18   allies agreed to you know that we never [TS]

00:28:21   have to like state that we agree like [TS]

00:28:23   you think about that the two I feel like [TS]

00:28:25   matter it's still true today because I [TS]

00:28:27   have many many job interviews but you [TS]

00:28:29   know to the two kind of canonical [TS]

00:28:31   questions that always get asked in a job [TS]

00:28:33   interview [TS]

00:28:34   there's one that we say to somebody what [TS]

00:28:37   would you say is your [TS]

00:28:38   is your biggest internet positive or [TS]

00:28:40   what's the thing you think you could [TS]

00:28:41   really bring to our team and the person [TS]

00:28:44   so then there's the the pantomime where [TS]

00:28:46   they have to go home [TS]

00:28:47   that's a poser let me really think about [TS]

00:28:49   that for a minute because of course [TS]

00:28:51   everybody knows they're gonna get asked [TS]

00:28:52   that question a job interview and you [TS]

00:28:54   say well whatever you say something like [TS]

00:28:57   well you know if you work really hard [TS]

00:28:58   but I'm also really diligent ah and I'm [TS]

00:29:01   a good listener and you say all these [TS]

00:29:03   things that you know they want to hear [TS]

00:29:04   the go home [TS]

00:29:05   that's really interesting good listener [TS]

00:29:07   let me a second question let me let me [TS]

00:29:10   shake it up a little bit what would you [TS]

00:29:12   say is your biggest negative that you'd [TS]

00:29:14   really like your new well well i have to [TS]

00:29:17   tell you sir I was not prepared for that [TS]

00:29:19   question today [TS]

00:29:20   that's a poser let me think about it for [TS]

00:29:22   a minute i guess i'd say if anything [TS]

00:29:24   sometimes I probably work too hard [TS]

00:29:26   oh you guys I that's super interesting [TS]

00:29:29   answer i appreciate your candor and [TS]

00:29:32   sharing that with us today and the thing [TS]

00:29:34   is like everybody knows those questions [TS]

00:29:36   are going to get asked everybody knows I [TS]

00:29:38   mean that like what what the fuck do you [TS]

00:29:40   think that person's gonna say well I [TS]

00:29:43   didn't want you to find out that like I [TS]

00:29:46   got let go from the last three jobs [TS]

00:29:47   because i keep masturbating into the [TS]

00:29:49   coffee pot I'd say that's probably in at [TS]

00:29:53   the end of the day my biggest negative [TS]

00:29:55   is a common coffee and then oh well [TS]

00:29:57   that's super interesting thank you for [TS]

00:29:59   that [TS]

00:30:00   no you got to say something cuz you if [TS]

00:30:02   you said something you actually said are [TS]

00:30:04   well sometimes my social anxiety is so [TS]

00:30:08   crippling that it's very difficult for [TS]

00:30:10   me to even make it to work and I don't [TS]

00:30:12   answer the phone for a week sometimes [TS]

00:30:14   like that that's probably true [TS]

00:30:16   it's probably a negative and it's honest [TS]

00:30:18   but now not only you're not gonna get [TS]

00:30:19   that job but you are the biggest weirdo [TS]

00:30:21   and loser because you actually answer [TS]

00:30:23   the question you know but default I mean [TS]

00:30:25   isn't that kind of similar to what [TS]

00:30:26   happens if something right [TS]

00:30:28   you know I mean when people ask these [TS]

00:30:30   kinds of questions I don't know for some [TS]

00:30:32   reason Jesse raising arizona what do you [TS]

00:30:34   think well I kind of a question is that [TS]

00:30:37   I'm actually I'm actually drop in the [TS]

00:30:39   audio here but there's the scene where [TS]

00:30:40   he is at length finally in front of the [TS]

00:30:42   parole board again and the one goes they [TS]

00:30:46   got a name [TS]

00:30:47   the people like you hi that name is [TS]

00:30:50   called recidivism repeat offender not a [TS]

00:30:54   pretty name is it high [TS]

00:30:56   no sir that's one bonehead name the date [TS]

00:30:59   me anymore you're not just telling us [TS]

00:31:01   what we want to hear no sir no way cause [TS]

00:31:04   we just want to hear the truth [TS]

00:31:06   well then i guess i am telling you what [TS]

00:31:08   you want to hear all I didn't we just [TS]

00:31:10   tell you not to do that [TS]

00:31:12   yes sir ok and that's like isn't that it [TS]

00:31:17   was like you know what [TS]

00:31:19   what can you actually say in a situation [TS]

00:31:22   like that because you're you're damned [TS]

00:31:24   if you anything [TS]

00:31:25   yeah not unless round is funny it was a [TS]

00:31:30   rocky place for my senior find no [TS]

00:31:31   purchase but uh tell me Merlin what is [TS]

00:31:35   the last job interview went to the last [TS]

00:31:40   job interview that I went to for like a [TS]

00:31:42   position at the company describe [TS]

00:31:44   describe it you you either way he's only [TS]

00:31:46   single words there was a time when [TS]

00:31:48   Merlin man slipped his hair down to put [TS]

00:31:52   his tie on and I did I would put [TS]

00:31:54   dippity-do in and I think it's like I [TS]

00:31:56   look like gordon gekko carried your [TS]

00:31:57   little uh carried your little binder my [TS]

00:31:59   beliefs and your latest my day-timer you [TS]

00:32:02   SAT you sat on a chair in a lobby with a [TS]

00:32:05   leg swinging till somebody came out and [TS]

00:32:07   said uh Merlin Mann and you'll and the [TS]

00:32:10   white men will see you now [TS]

00:32:12   that's me that's me that whatever um [TS]

00:32:15   let's see the last last real job that I [TS]

00:32:18   had that was close to a real job my last [TS]

00:32:20   actual real according to Hoyle job that [TS]

00:32:22   I got was in 1999 it was a breeze [TS]

00:32:26   it was kind of a breeze because i had [TS]

00:32:28   gotten my friend of mine had basically [TS]

00:32:31   got me this interview they knew that it [TS]

00:32:32   was a really good fit for what these [TS]

00:32:33   guys needed and I i met with the head [TS]

00:32:35   engineer who ended up being one of my [TS]

00:32:37   favorite bosses of all time and that [TS]

00:32:40   went pretty well but that was super [TS]

00:32:42   unusual most of my job interviews the [TS]

00:32:43   ones that i can remember we're just just [TS]

00:32:46   just awful just awful because i don't [TS]

00:32:49   know i think you know what the people [TS]

00:32:51   that I know in the companies that I work [TS]

00:32:52   with there's been a huge trend you know [TS]

00:32:54   especially in the in this age of [TS]

00:32:55   computer maths there's a lot more [TS]

00:32:57   interest in really putting effort into [TS]

00:32:59   recruiting [TS]

00:33:01   and to like find the right person for [TS]

00:33:02   the company and without getting into too [TS]

00:33:04   much detail I think there's been a real [TS]

00:33:05   revolution thinking about how you how [TS]

00:33:07   you hire to get the culture you want [TS]

00:33:08   whereas most of jobs for the kinds of [TS]

00:33:10   positions i was at was more like well [TS]

00:33:12   this person left now we need a new [TS]

00:33:13   person and somebody would be sitting [TS]

00:33:15   there and flipping through papers on [TS]

00:33:17   their desk you know why you're while [TS]

00:33:19   you're trying to make a pitch and he [TS]

00:33:21   sent out resumes and you go through all [TS]

00:33:22   that donkey drill but I've had some of [TS]

00:33:25   those that were just never forget going [TS]

00:33:27   in trying to get a job at the [TS]

00:33:28   tallahassee democrat the paper and ink [TS]

00:33:30   web stuff there and I just remember i [TS]

00:33:33   like that was sent into the person's [TS]

00:33:34   office to like wait for them to come in [TS]

00:33:35   and it was just it was so dismal it was [TS]

00:33:38   like something out of Brazil and the [TS]

00:33:40   endo on the top of the file cabinets [TS]

00:33:42   I'll never forget this image they had a [TS]

00:33:44   burgundy sort of garnet and gold style [TS]

00:33:47   FSU colors hat they had a baseball cap [TS]

00:33:50   it said coach on it [TS]

00:33:52   coach and all I had to do was look at [TS]

00:33:54   that and I felt like I could already see [TS]

00:33:56   the off-site meeting where all the [TS]

00:33:58   managers got have to said coach because [TS]

00:33:59   everything's going to be different now [TS]

00:34:00   you know and like real paradigmatically [TS]

00:34:03   different and it was it was a shitshow [TS]

00:34:05   is it is a terrible terrible interview [TS]

00:34:07   and of course I spoke my mind I said [TS]

00:34:09   what I really thought about things and I [TS]

00:34:12   didn't end up getting the job but i [TS]

00:34:15   guess i am telling you what you want to [TS]

00:34:17   hear then okay then I'll do is charge [TS]

00:34:22   companies fifteen dollars for a website [TS]

00:34:25   you would do that for ten dollars an [TS]

00:34:27   hour [TS]

00:34:28   anyone can you start a [TS]

00:34:30   where do I begin where do I even begin [TS]

00:34:34   why are you charging them in either at [TS]

00:34:37   the grandson of $15 Ryu charging only [TS]

00:34:39   fifteen dollars like what's get anybody [TS]

00:34:41   possibly get out of anything for that [TS]

00:34:43   amount of money and why do you want to [TS]

00:34:44   hire a web designer for that [TS]

00:34:45   why don't you just just hire a monkey [TS]

00:34:47   with a paintbrush like anyway know and [TS]

00:34:50   have known what about you [TS]

00:34:51   so with the last real job do you have a [TS]

00:34:53   job at the newsstand I did for a long [TS]

00:34:55   time [TS]

00:34:56   see this is also the changing you know [TS]

00:34:58   the way we work changing so much the [TS]

00:35:00   move away from what I've called Richard [TS]

00:35:02   Scarry jobs to like you know knowledge [TS]

00:35:04   worker jobs were a lot of us working [TS]

00:35:05   freelance or contract or temporarily or [TS]

00:35:07   something [TS]

00:35:08   i I don't know that many people that [TS]

00:35:10   have had the same job for five years [TS]

00:35:11   it's worth the work doesn't happen [TS]

00:35:13   anymore working at the newsstand was [TS]

00:35:14   absolutely a Richard Scarry job it's [TS]

00:35:17   like you know here's how you get a tool [TS]

00:35:19   yeah here's the grocer and here's the [TS]

00:35:22   painter and here's the newspaper guy you [TS]

00:35:25   stop in and you buy some bubblegum and [TS]

00:35:27   you get a newspaper and that world just [TS]

00:35:31   feels completely gone i mean i guess [TS]

00:35:32   there are still florists but got we have [TS]

00:35:36   a lot of books for you know we have a [TS]

00:35:38   lot of children's books that were that [TS]

00:35:40   are like it in German because of who we [TS]

00:35:43   are and so many of the German children's [TS]

00:35:47   books are in that Richard Scarry vein of [TS]

00:35:49   just because there's so much of Germany [TS]

00:35:52   that really prides itself on that still [TS]

00:35:54   write the little town and there's the [TS]

00:35:56   chocolatier and there's the pretzel guy [TS]

00:36:00   and and the you know the man with the [TS]

00:36:03   hammer and the blue hat that comes and [TS]

00:36:06   hammers things for you that's hammer [TS]

00:36:08   meister that's how my sister but the [TS]

00:36:12   last job I like interviewed for where I [TS]

00:36:15   put on a tie i went down to see first [TS]

00:36:22   bank which he first was then purchased [TS]

00:36:27   by bank of america and became one of the [TS]

00:36:33   you know one of the bank of america was [TS]

00:36:36   absorbed right became part of that board [TS]

00:36:40   but throughout my whole life as a kid [TS]

00:36:44   and up until you know up into my [TS]

00:36:46   mid-twenties see first was like the big [TS]

00:36:48   Seattle bank see first pre pre in [TS]

00:36:52   washington mutual was still was still [TS]

00:36:55   kind of a scrappy upstart bank see first [TS]

00:36:59   was the was where the the old-school [TS]

00:37:02   kept their money like national bank of [TS]

00:37:06   Alaska is in Alaska for those Alaskans [TS]

00:37:09   listening anyway I went to see first and [TS]

00:37:11   i got a job in their claims wasn't it [TS]

00:37:19   was that it was there you know they they [TS]

00:37:21   had a they had a lot of diversification [TS]

00:37:23   as a bank and it was like it was their [TS]

00:37:26   loan their loan department and people [TS]

00:37:30   would take you know take loans out and [TS]

00:37:34   and present collateral for those loans [TS]

00:37:36   so you know we had to have pictures of [TS]

00:37:38   their boat two pictures of their [TS]

00:37:40   property pictures of their windmill or [TS]

00:37:43   there you know where they're like our [TS]

00:37:45   farm or whatever it was that they were [TS]

00:37:47   trying to get you know that they were [TS]

00:37:49   using as collateral to to get a bigger [TS]

00:37:51   loan to do something and I worked in [TS]

00:37:53   that office and I went in and you know [TS]

00:37:57   it was very much like mid nineties kind [TS]

00:38:02   of happy talk office interview and I [TS]

00:38:07   really I i really had competing like [TS]

00:38:12   competing polls in me at that point in [TS]

00:38:17   my life I I was you know was still [TS]

00:38:20   struggling i was still drinking I was [TS]

00:38:23   still living pretty rough in in seattle [TS]

00:38:29   kind of you know living a pretty rough [TS]

00:38:32   trade life at night and I and I felt [TS]

00:38:37   like I needed to get straight i need to [TS]

00:38:41   go straight [TS]

00:38:42   yeah you talked about this before where [TS]

00:38:43   you went through a phase where you felt [TS]

00:38:44   like am I going to be this like what is [TS]

00:38:46   my what is my life it seems like you're [TS]

00:38:47   sort of asking like so you know am I [TS]

00:38:49   going to be this am I gonna be that you [TS]

00:38:52   that weird experience where you drink on [TS]

00:38:54   the guys boat yeah yeah yeah yeah so [TS]

00:38:56   this was a different bank you know and I [TS]

00:38:58   felt like go straight right go get a job [TS]

00:39:00   in a bank because they were kind when [TS]

00:39:02   some of these places you feel kind of [TS]

00:39:03   tantalize with this whole like the ok [TS]

00:39:04   today they make a decision are you ready [TS]

00:39:06   to go to the next level [TS]

00:39:07   that's right that's right i mean if you [TS]

00:39:09   start working at a bank and you have [TS]

00:39:13   moxie [TS]

00:39:14   um you can become one of the rich and [TS]

00:39:18   that the those compactly competing poll [TS]

00:39:23   of like do you live a life that is for [TS]

00:39:25   you do you live an ethical life you live [TS]

00:39:28   a rewarding life or do you live a life [TS]

00:39:31   where you are making money and if you're [TS]

00:39:34   living a life where you're making money [TS]

00:39:35   and and you want to and you want to [TS]

00:39:39   retain your humanity inside yourself [TS]

00:39:43   somehow then your outward life becomes a [TS]

00:39:46   sort of suit of armor and animated suit [TS]

00:39:49   of armor that is out waging war [TS]

00:39:52   collecting a treasure and then at a [TS]

00:39:58   certain point you take off the suit of [TS]

00:39:59   armor yet [TS]

00:40:01   and then you have a pile of treasure and [TS]

00:40:03   then you can do good in the world or [TS]

00:40:05   then you can live freely and i was never [TS]

00:40:11   able to sustain it but you know yeah i [TS]

00:40:14   went and sat in a job interview and told [TS]

00:40:15   them that I was a diligent worker who [TS]

00:40:17   believed in who believed in keeping [TS]

00:40:20   things alphabetized I very very very [TS]

00:40:24   much liked to collate things I [TS]

00:40:31   particular I'd say my biggest negative [TS]

00:40:33   it's going to be hard to get me to stop [TS]

00:40:35   collating efficiently [TS]

00:40:36   yeah you know one of the things about me [TS]

00:40:38   as I really like to go back into a [TS]

00:40:40   disorganized files and and straighten [TS]

00:40:43   them up get them up get them you know [TS]

00:40:45   like when I have some free time I don't [TS]

00:40:48   like to think of it of it is free time I [TS]

00:40:50   like to think of it as opportunities to [TS]

00:40:51   go file time and fucked and and get back [TS]

00:40:54   into the files and really straighten him [TS]

00:40:56   up straight them out [TS]

00:40:58   and I and actually that's not wrong like [TS]

00:41:00   I do like to sit and make sure that the [TS]

00:41:02   that the that the blue copy is the third [TS]

00:41:08   piece of paper in every file and if the [TS]

00:41:12   blue copy ends up the fourth piece of [TS]

00:41:15   paper in a file i can feel it I can feel [TS]

00:41:18   it across the across the office floor [TS]

00:41:21   and I'll go find that file and I'll move [TS]

00:41:23   that blue paper from fourth to third to [TS]

00:41:27   get everything back straight with the [TS]

00:41:29   world but there's something very [TS]

00:41:31   satisfying about that in the same way as [TS]

00:41:33   tagging your mp3's or something there's [TS]

00:41:35   something very satisfying about having [TS]

00:41:37   this known amount of work with some [TS]

00:41:38   little physical actions and that's very [TS]

00:41:40   engaging stuff it is it is and you know [TS]

00:41:43   and to get all caught up and have all [TS]

00:41:45   the file i want and what's great about a [TS]

00:41:47   job like that is you're sitting on your [TS]

00:41:48   stool and some harried a loan officer [TS]

00:41:53   comes in with their time I ask you and [TS]

00:41:55   says I can't find the you know the [TS]

00:41:57   amazing clots file and I'm like oh can't [TS]

00:42:02   find the amazing class file huh who was [TS]

00:42:04   working on it he goes I don't you know I [TS]

00:42:07   don't know but Brandon I think had it [TS]

00:42:08   for a while and I'm like followme and [TS]

00:42:11   then I would walk across the the trading [TS]

00:42:14   floor and all the typewriters were going [TS]

00:42:17   and the phones were ringing and this you [TS]

00:42:19   know in this sales guy or this blown [TS]

00:42:22   officer behind me as you know is getting [TS]

00:42:23   paid more than I am he's older than I am [TS]

00:42:25   but he can't find amazing clots file and [TS]

00:42:28   I would walk and we go through the [TS]

00:42:30   elevators and around the corner and and [TS]

00:42:32   then there'd be a cart parked you know [TS]

00:42:36   next to the next to the drinking [TS]

00:42:38   fountain and I would go right to the [TS]

00:42:40   cart and I would go right to the second [TS]

00:42:42   level of it and I would pull the amazing [TS]

00:42:44   clots file and I'd be like there is with [TS]

00:42:47   that kind of like here you go here you [TS]

00:42:49   go buddy [TS]

00:42:50   I don't like your conjurer yeah like how [TS]

00:42:52   hard was that he's just like incredible [TS]

00:42:54   how did you know that was there [TS]

00:42:56   how could you found that well you know [TS]

00:42:58   you just just gotta follow it follow the [TS]

00:43:00   trail my friend you just gotta know the [TS]

00:43:02   millions announced [TS]

00:43:04   like I really liked that but I just [TS]

00:43:07   couldn't keep couldn't keep on the wheel [TS]

00:43:09   couldn't keep on the treadmill [TS]

00:43:11   yeah and I wasn't going from from that [TS]

00:43:15   job I I probably wasn't going to end up [TS]

00:43:18   being president of the Bank particularly [TS]

00:43:22   said senior remember mr. Roderick was [TS]

00:43:24   the one who found amazing closer basic [TS]

00:43:27   loves flowers now our god mark jordan [TS]

00:43:30   this business there on ours in the war [TS]

00:43:33   room now i'm CEO of Bank of America and [TS]

00:43:38   I've ever told you the story about the [TS]

00:43:40   amazing lots file no one no one could [TS]

00:43:44   hard and he had more money than me we [TS]

00:43:47   buy said follow me we walk with across [TS]

00:43:50   the room and so forth and our phones [TS]

00:43:53   ringing and their typewriters going i [TS]

00:43:56   found it i knew exactly where was this [TS]

00:44:00   episode of Roderick on the line is [TS]

00:44:01   brought to you by Casper to learn more [TS]

00:44:03   visit Casper calm / supertrain gang this [TS]

00:44:07   is real easy to understand [TS]

00:44:08   Casper offers and obsessively engineered [TS]

00:44:11   mattress at a shockingly fair price [TS]

00:44:13   after this mattress is one-of-a-kind [TS]

00:44:15   it's a new hybrid mattress that combines [TS]

00:44:17   premium latex foam with memory foam it's [TS]

00:44:20   got just the right sink and just the [TS]

00:44:21   right balance the best of two [TS]

00:44:23   technologies come together for better [TS]

00:44:25   nights and brighter days draw near and [TS]

00:44:27   please listen closely because i have to [TS]

00:44:29   tell you I've been sleeping on a casper [TS]

00:44:31   mattresses for months now and i love [TS]

00:44:33   this thing [TS]

00:44:34   yes i love the quality of the product [TS]

00:44:35   and i love the quality of the sleep that [TS]

00:44:36   I get but you know what even these many [TS]

00:44:38   months later I still pleasingly stunned [TS]

00:44:41   at how easy this company is to deal with [TS]

00:44:43   and just how painless they made the [TS]

00:44:45   entire process will be tied you if [TS]

00:44:47   you've ever tried to navigate the fiery [TS]

00:44:48   hellscape that is shopping for costing [TS]

00:44:50   mattresses in a retail store it is the [TS]

00:44:53   worst with Casper you do not get that is [TS]

00:44:55   how this works with Casper you order [TS]

00:44:58   your mattress a surprisingly small box [TS]

00:45:00   magically appears at your door and you [TS]

00:45:02   carry it up to your room yes by yourself [TS]

00:45:04   try that with a typical king-size [TS]

00:45:06   mattress and it comes to this little [TS]

00:45:08   things that used to gently swipe open [TS]

00:45:09   this bag full of awesome mattress and [TS]

00:45:12   mattress gently exhales because [TS]

00:45:14   and within minutes you have everything [TS]

00:45:16   you need for a good night's sleep [TS]

00:45:18   it's actually that easy is actually that [TS]

00:45:20   simple [TS]

00:45:21   here's the crazy part Casper also offers [TS]

00:45:23   an equally simple risk-free trial and [TS]

00:45:26   return policy so you try sleeping under [TS]

00:45:28   Casper for 100 nights and if for some [TS]

00:45:30   reason it's not to your liking [TS]

00:45:31   you can send it back to them free [TS]

00:45:33   delivery painless returns made in [TS]

00:45:35   America and just sleep sleep glorious [TS]

00:45:38   sleep as I mentioned these prices are [TS]

00:45:40   just outrageously low five hundred [TS]

00:45:42   dollars for twin size mattress going up [TS]

00:45:44   to 9 50 for a king-size mattress try [TS]

00:45:46   getting a mattress and a store for that [TS]

00:45:47   kind of money won't happen and the top [TS]

00:45:49   of it all Casper has a very special [TS]

00:45:50   offer to listeners of Robert on the line [TS]

00:45:53   you can get fifty dollars toward your [TS]

00:45:55   mattress purchase by visiting Casper [TS]

00:45:57   calm / supertrain and using these very [TS]

00:46:00   special offer code supertrain we must [TS]

00:46:02   tell you terms and conditions apply [TS]

00:46:04   i'm here to tell you it's a terrific [TS]

00:46:05   mattress i love mine i hope you will [TS]

00:46:07   give these folks to spin their great to [TS]

00:46:09   work with our thanks to Casper for many [TS]

00:46:11   great nights sleep and for supporting [TS]

00:46:12   Robert on the line and now what now [TS]

00:46:18   now you know now i cant i got my I got [TS]

00:46:21   my foot so the other day sitting around [TS]

00:46:25   the house my kid comes over and starts [TS]

00:46:29   talking about something or other and I [TS]

00:46:31   said oh you know my dad was really [TS]

00:46:33   expert at that and we talked about my [TS]

00:46:37   dad a lot and she was like you know your [TS]

00:46:40   dad and kind of looked thoughtfully and [TS]

00:46:44   I was like you know what we have not [TS]

00:46:46   really sat down and looked at pictures [TS]

00:46:50   of my dad in awhile and that's not [TS]

00:46:53   something i want to you know I don't [TS]

00:46:55   want my dad to just kind of turn into a [TS]

00:46:57   ghost in her mind right right so I went [TS]

00:46:59   upstairs and I found a bin of my dad's [TS]

00:47:02   photographs and I brought the pin down [TS]

00:47:05   and I said sit with me and we'll look at [TS]

00:47:07   some pictures and even in doing that [TS]

00:47:11   realized that the novelty of a box full [TS]

00:47:16   of pictures uh it had been it's been [TS]

00:47:19   long enough that the this was very new [TS]

00:47:23   idea that I was going to open this box [TS]

00:47:25   and it's going to be full of [TS]

00:47:26   hard photographs write because usually [TS]

00:47:30   when we look at pictures we sit down and [TS]

00:47:31   look at them on a device and so we start [TS]

00:47:34   going through pictures and a couple of [TS]

00:47:38   things became immediately clear as we [TS]

00:47:41   discussed before my dad was the worst [TS]

00:47:43   photographer that human kind has ever [TS]

00:47:46   produced and he was an enthusiast he was [TS]

00:47:50   an enthusiastic photographer and easily [TS]

00:47:53   the worst photographer I mean entire [TS]

00:47:55   rolls of film where not a single [TS]

00:47:56   photograph is not just in focus because [TS]

00:48:01   none of them are in focus but so out of [TS]

00:48:04   focus and so badly framed that it is [TS]

00:48:07   unclear what my father was trying to [TS]

00:48:10   photograph and for even for a lot of [TS]

00:48:14   them i was an eyewitness to the events [TS]

00:48:16   and I cannot discern what is being [TS]

00:48:20   displayed but you can't tell anybody was [TS]

00:48:21   going for I mean it's like okay it's a [TS]

00:48:24   soccer game there are players on the [TS]

00:48:26   field none of them even if it were in [TS]

00:48:28   focus none of them would be identifiable [TS]

00:48:30   because you're shooting a soccer game [TS]

00:48:33   with a you know with a with the lens [TS]

00:48:36   that somebody at the camera shop talk to [TS]

00:48:39   you into buying i can t too slow to see [TS]

00:48:42   anything [TS]

00:48:43   yeah it's just like they're so basically [TS]

00:48:45   there are just a lot of it's like a [TS]

00:48:47   mumbly peg you've taken a photograph of [TS]

00:48:50   a mum bleep a game [TS]

00:48:51   there's just a lot of like completely [TS]

00:48:53   interchangeable children [TS]

00:48:57   Blops in a field of green or you know so [TS]

00:49:02   often like my I would be sitting next to [TS]

00:49:04   my sister on a couch and my dad would [TS]

00:49:05   try and take a picture of us both and he [TS]

00:49:07   would just kind of cut he would cut one [TS]

00:49:10   half of each of our faces [TS]

00:49:12   how's that possible rather than say like [TS]

00:49:13   either you guys scoot together so I can [TS]

00:49:17   get you both in the frame or I'm gonna [TS]

00:49:19   take a step back so that you're both in [TS]

00:49:21   the friends a horrible fucking he would [TS]

00:49:23   just be would focus the camera on the on [TS]

00:49:26   the the couch in between us and then we [TS]

00:49:29   like a little bit of each of us would be [TS]

00:49:31   caught in the shot and and trying to [TS]

00:49:34   look at these pictures and trying to [TS]

00:49:35   just get inside my dad's head [TS]

00:49:37   he loved his camera he loved taking [TS]

00:49:39   photographs and what's great about it is [TS]

00:49:43   that he took so many that we still have [TS]

00:49:47   the the benefit of that sort of one in a [TS]

00:49:51   hundred rule where one in a hundred [TS]

00:49:54   photographs he accidentally and I think [TS]

00:49:56   I I swear to you I swear to the some of [TS]

00:49:59   the best photographs i think the camera [TS]

00:50:00   went off accidentally right he just he [TS]

00:50:03   was standing there and he just touched [TS]

00:50:04   the body was like oh damn it [TS]

00:50:06   and those are the those are the few that [TS]

00:50:08   are a InFocus be interesting Lee framed [TS]

00:50:11   but so many so many so many so many [TS]

00:50:15   photographs that that even the baby [TS]

00:50:17   looks at and just like I wonder what are [TS]

00:50:19   we looking at is that a train is that a [TS]

00:50:22   is that a person is it a visit dishes in [TS]

00:50:26   the sink [TS]

00:50:26   I can't I can't I can't tell but and I'm [TS]

00:50:32   very reluctant to throw any of them away [TS]

00:50:34   because even even worse gonna get even a [TS]

00:50:37   bunch of out-of-focus pictures of you [TS]

00:50:41   know of a like of the tide coming in or [TS]

00:50:44   whatever I i still i see the hand of my [TS]

00:50:47   dad I feel him and I feel him in them [TS]

00:50:49   and I'm just like you know these are [TS]

00:50:51   these these means something to me but [TS]

00:50:54   but also i have a box of photos and even [TS]

00:51:01   though most of them will not mean [TS]

00:51:02   anything to her like it's a real thing [TS]

00:51:05   it's a they are think there are things [TS]

00:51:07   you can put your hands on and right now [TS]

00:51:09   in my computer life right i have this [TS]

00:51:12   computer i'm talking to you on which was [TS]

00:51:15   made in 1998 i have not updated the [TS]

00:51:18   operating system since 2001 what and I [TS]

00:51:22   know what else we've talked we've talked [TS]

00:51:25   about this mac before right this is not [TS]

00:51:27   set [TS]

00:51:27   it's a love heart fluctuation it's a g3 [TS]

00:51:30   the g3 mcintosh who uh but i feel very [TS]

00:51:35   scared right now there are there are [TS]

00:51:38   10,000 photographs on this computer that [TS]

00:51:43   i don't i'm not confident i can put [TS]

00:51:46   anywhere else like I don't know where to [TS]

00:51:49   put [TS]

00:51:50   where they would be safe people say oh [TS]

00:51:53   you know the hard drives die if i put [TS]

00:51:57   them in the cloud [TS]

00:51:59   I still am NOT confident that they're [TS]

00:52:00   safe and then all of a sudden I'm [TS]

00:52:02   incurring a forty dollar a month charge [TS]

00:52:05   I can't i don't think i can put them on [TS]

00:52:08   my laptop my phone is slowing down from [TS]

00:52:11   being overburdened with accidental voice [TS]

00:52:14   accidental audio recordings that somehow [TS]

00:52:18   keep migrating into my text field like [TS]

00:52:21   what is the advantage of that and [TS]

00:52:22   understand i like we accidentally hit [TS]

00:52:24   the microphone [TS]

00:52:25   yeah and all of a sudden you're sending [TS]

00:52:26   a voice text that's a horrible feeling [TS]

00:52:29   what is that feature why would anybody [TS]

00:52:31   use that if you want to you want to [TS]

00:52:33   leave somebody a phone message you can [TS]

00:52:36   still do that why would you send a voice [TS]

00:52:37   text it's personal [TS]

00:52:40   anyway so there's that and so I have [TS]

00:52:43   what I have your ID 18,800 photos [TS]

00:52:47   oh my goodness on my on my computer [TS]

00:52:50   which I feel everyday is sending me very [TS]

00:52:54   clear messages that like I'm about to [TS]

00:52:55   die I'm a compartment [TS]

00:52:57   I'm an old old old friend i have i have [TS]

00:53:03   a 2.16 gigahertz intel core and i want [TS]

00:53:09   to i want to go to sleep now i have [TS]

00:53:13   earned her I burned my rest and I go yes [TS]

00:53:17   yes yes that's fine i agree with you you [TS]

00:53:20   should you should [TS]

00:53:21   shuffle off this mortal coil you should [TS]

00:53:22   go to live on a farm but please don't [TS]

00:53:24   take my 18,800 photos with you and I and [TS]

00:53:31   I'm and i fear i fear i fear for the [TS]

00:53:34   future whenever I don't have a I don't [TS]

00:53:37   have a box full of photos I just have [TS]

00:53:40   this thing you know it's not and would [TS]

00:53:44   not be a particularly interesting topic [TS]

00:53:46   to go into detail here but there are [TS]

00:53:48   ways that we can help you with that was [TS]

00:53:49   John siracusa was here to tell me that I [TS]

00:53:52   to tell me something when i really be [TS]

00:53:55   happy to help you with um some of that [TS]

00:53:56   but i think there's a philosophical [TS]

00:53:57   issue here in that I mean part of it is [TS]

00:54:01   also that you think about the old [TS]

00:54:03   workflow [TS]

00:54:04   that we went through in the past [TS]

00:54:05   workflow don't term I think the thing [TS]

00:54:08   that we used to do have been first i've [TS]

00:54:10   been forbidden from saying the word ping [TS]

00:54:12   yeah you told me about that and sucks [TS]

00:54:15   that's a shame it's a good word ping [TS]

00:54:17   ping ping ya ya can't stand and but you [TS]

00:54:20   know it used to be pretty [TS]

00:54:21   straightforward which was that you know [TS]

00:54:23   there's a cycle you know loop basically [TS]

00:54:26   where you drop off film to be processed [TS]

00:54:28   right you'd buy new film while you're [TS]

00:54:30   there because usually in my case it that [TS]

00:54:32   Eckert drugs in Florida you would get a [TS]

00:54:34   discount when you bought film while [TS]

00:54:35   you're having a process and so but you [TS]

00:54:37   just keep doing that you just keep going [TS]

00:54:39   in you you know go in and drop off the [TS]

00:54:41   film you go back to your pictures drop [TS]

00:54:42   it off and so on and so forth and then [TS]

00:54:44   as soon as you got that you picked it up [TS]

00:54:45   to get the little envelope full of [TS]

00:54:46   photos you flip through it you know and [TS]

00:54:48   you know those at the very least now you [TS]

00:54:52   had a box full of envelopes of photos [TS]

00:54:55   which made it like it didn't mean that [TS]

00:54:57   you could look at would look at them all [TS]

00:54:58   the time but you didn't know where they [TS]

00:55:00   were and that this is any more secure [TS]

00:55:03   I mean my god one hard copy of a photo [TS]

00:55:05   and the negative in the same envelope [TS]

00:55:06   like how secure is that that's true if [TS]

00:55:08   your house caught on fire it's all [TS]

00:55:09   alright or in my case a leak in the [TS]

00:55:11   basement took out like almost all my [TS]

00:55:13   family photos is a real bummer that I [TS]

00:55:15   have like one solid much together block [TS]

00:55:18   of photo now it's it's just it's too sad [TS]

00:55:20   even think about know but but that arm [TS]

00:55:23   but but that but there was something [TS]

00:55:25   about that we're like you'd have a hard [TS]

00:55:26   copy now you know some of the snapshots [TS]

00:55:29   from the sixties and seventies have not [TS]

00:55:31   aged well they've lived their real [TS]

00:55:34   weird-looking me and that's where some [TS]

00:55:36   stuff in the seventies and eighties even [TS]

00:55:38   worse with my kodak dis camera but I'm [TS]

00:55:41   like haha of course you a discount on [TS]

00:55:44   this camera you were always an earlier [TS]

00:55:46   about later I got an elf but but you [TS]

00:55:48   know but in that case though there's [TS]

00:55:49   something there's two parts to that the [TS]

00:55:51   one is that like you knew where the [TS]

00:55:52   photos were there in the photo box and [TS]

00:55:54   the other one was at any point you can [TS]

00:55:55   just kind of grabbed him and flip [TS]

00:55:56   through them and that's something you do [TS]

00:55:57   a couple times a year [TS]

00:55:59   the thing is now i have a like a new [TS]

00:56:02   parent I took you know hundreds of [TS]

00:56:04   thousands of photos of our kid and then [TS]

00:56:06   just didn't look at them [TS]

00:56:07   oh yeah it's really weird but then when [TS]

00:56:09   I signed up the funny thing is when I [TS]

00:56:10   signed up for google photo which is one [TS]

00:56:12   option I want to look at it pushes our [TS]

00:56:13   photos up into into the code but what's [TS]

00:56:16   cool is it goes through it [TS]

00:56:17   looks at all your photos and first of [TS]

00:56:20   all I'd like groups them in interesting [TS]

00:56:21   ways that makes it all searchable so you [TS]

00:56:23   can search for cake or guitar and it [TS]

00:56:25   will actually find it because their [TS]

00:56:26   google and they're amazing and it's [TS]

00:56:28   really neat but then what also is cool [TS]

00:56:30   is like it will find if you did like you [TS]

00:56:31   know you would you like in the blast [TS]

00:56:33   mode we go 10 gonna take like 10 photos [TS]

00:56:35   or something it may automatically makes [TS]

00:56:37   animated gifs out of those which sounds [TS]

00:56:39   silly but there's something so cool [TS]

00:56:41   about going like you know at the time I [TS]

00:56:42   kicked myself for being such a dummy and [TS]

00:56:44   taking 50 photos of a baby but it turns [TS]

00:56:46   into an animated gif was already going [TS]

00:56:48   to blast mode [TS]

00:56:49   oh if you're on at least iOS 8 I think [TS]

00:56:53   when you hold down the button just keep [TS]

00:56:54   holding the button down and say it will [TS]

00:56:56   take multiple photos for as long as you [TS]

00:56:58   hold it [TS]

00:56:58   be careful because your phone is pretty [TS]

00:57:00   full but be then it will also help pick [TS]

00:57:02   out what it thinks is the best photo [TS]

00:57:04   which is pretty good at like really yeah [TS]

00:57:06   it's in focus and try it works last mode [TS]

00:57:10   yeah but didn't but so what's but here's [TS]

00:57:12   the second part to me is what's in the [TS]

00:57:13   Google photo thing this is not a butt [TS]

00:57:14   plug for them but it was good with [TS]

00:57:17   google photo costs money [TS]

00:57:18   no you don't trust right now I I trust [TS]

00:57:22   things that don't cost money [TS]

00:57:24   I I don't cost money you can trust me [TS]

00:57:27   um but what's needed is then so it jumps [TS]

00:57:33   on all your photos you can upload from [TS]

00:57:35   your phone you can upload you can do it [TS]

00:57:36   right now today and upload it like i [TS]

00:57:38   have 26 gigs of photos and videos on my [TS]

00:57:40   phone it's it's asinine so but they'll [TS]

00:57:43   hear what I'm trying to get at length is [TS]

00:57:44   then what's really cool it says you [TS]

00:57:46   going you going to go to photo and [TS]

00:57:47   suddenly it's made its made movies it's [TS]

00:57:50   made animations it's made little sets [TS]

00:57:52   and you to re-experience all your photos [TS]

00:57:54   in this thing so like I'm great at [TS]

00:57:56   taking pictures i'm just i'm not i'm not [TS]

00:57:57   great at storing them and I'm not great [TS]

00:57:58   looking at them and like that's kind of [TS]

00:58:00   the important thing is remember to look [TS]

00:58:01   at him is good now is google photo going [TS]

00:58:03   to take your photos and use them in [TS]

00:58:05   advertisements to your friends that is [TS]

00:58:08   not the plan as I understand what it [TS]

00:58:09   will do is use it to contribute to the [TS]

00:58:12   corpus of data about photo recognition [TS]

00:58:13   stuff so that's why when you go into [TS]

00:58:16   Google photo you go into a search for [TS]

00:58:18   chair and it finds everything with a [TS]

00:58:19   chair in it or you do a search for [TS]

00:58:20   poster and finds posters it's totally [TS]

00:58:22   bananas you and facial recognition [TS]

00:58:24   because I mean that's just you know [TS]

00:58:26   again corpus corpus the corpus its [TS]

00:58:28   ramifications but right now i'm going [TS]

00:58:31   because we can help you with that we can [TS]

00:58:33   help you with that but you know photos I [TS]

00:58:35   mean like music or changing so much i [TS]

00:58:37   mean the way people take so many photos [TS]

00:58:38   but i always wonder what they do with [TS]

00:58:40   them [TS]

00:58:40   some people are great about it they're [TS]

00:58:41   like old school and they're like print [TS]

00:58:42   things out and send it to people are you [TS]

00:58:44   know doing things like that i just have [TS]

00:58:45   all these photos and I hardly ever look [TS]

00:58:47   at him [TS]

00:58:47   ok now let me let me walk you through [TS]

00:58:49   this yeah I have a I have not updated my [TS]

00:58:54   operating system and so uh the browser's [TS]

00:58:59   are no longer supported so how do i go [TS]

00:59:04   to Google photos without updating my [TS]

00:59:08   operating system [TS]

00:59:10   see this is the conundrum i do not want [TS]

00:59:12   to i'm afraid if i update the operating [TS]

00:59:14   system it will break everything [TS]

00:59:17   well we can talk about this which I mean [TS]

00:59:19   this is better for offline probably but [TS]

00:59:21   what unit are you kidding me this isn't [TS]

00:59:23   the most scintillating radio and welcome [TS]

00:59:25   to live computer support from five years [TS]

00:59:27   ago with John Roderick first you're [TS]

00:59:29   going to do something that's called back [TS]

00:59:31   up what I don't confuse I know it's [TS]

00:59:34   confusing and it sounds scary but it's [TS]

00:59:36   not it doesn't actually do anything to [TS]

00:59:37   your back and nothing goes up [TS]

00:59:39   I what I go I I try and read how to do a [TS]

00:59:41   backup and they start talking about [TS]

00:59:43   things that I don't understand just end [TS]

00:59:47   up just going to sorting things [TS]

00:59:49   yeah and I end up like oh maybe what I [TS]

00:59:53   should [TS]

00:59:54   well you have a guitar there to your e [TS]

00:59:59   [Music] [TS]

00:59:59   [Music] [TS]

01:00:00   hello government all the way across the [TS]

01:00:03   country little Jam a lot of times we did [TS]

01:00:33   this guy can blues we can help you with [TS]

01:00:38   that but you know everything comes it's [TS]

01:00:42   like it cost [TS]

01:00:43   oh my god that you at you you just said [TS]

01:00:45   it all [TS]

01:00:46   there's nothing that doesn't cost [TS]

01:00:50   psychic I just you know the psychic cost [TS]

01:00:52   of opening that bin and looking at [TS]

01:00:54   out-of-focus pictures of my that my [TS]

01:00:56   father took over the years and realizing [TS]

01:00:58   realizing that just as if you are raised [TS]

01:01:03   in a house where everybody smoked [TS]

01:01:04   cigarettes you do not know that a house [TS]

01:01:07   full of cigarette smoke is unusual and [TS]

01:01:10   bad until you get to be an adult and you [TS]

01:01:13   look back and you're like oh my god [TS]

01:01:14   everyone in my house was smoking menthol [TS]

01:01:17   cigarettes all day and night in my [TS]

01:01:20   entire childhood and that's this is not [TS]

01:01:21   true of me but i have i have friends [TS]

01:01:24   it was always at least one person [TS]

01:01:25   smoking there was a little bit of time [TS]

01:01:27   when they had their last smoke in bed [TS]

01:01:29   yes in bed snuffed it out and went to [TS]

01:01:31   sleep with the smoke would just settle [TS]

01:01:32   but other than that there was always [TS]

01:01:34   someone smoking somewhere all the time [TS]

01:01:35   yeah and and you know i would go over to [TS]

01:01:37   friends houses and walk in the door and [TS]

01:01:39   it was just like oh my god i'm inside of [TS]

01:01:41   like a diseased lung but they had no [TS]

01:01:45   they had no other reality right and my [TS]

01:01:47   reality growing up was that that you [TS]

01:01:51   were constantly being photographed you [TS]

01:01:55   were cut my dad and I went at the this [TS]

01:01:58   thing that you described we went to the [TS]

01:02:00   photoshop where my dad knew all the [TS]

01:02:02   people behind the counter he knew the [TS]

01:02:04   owner he would hand over five rolls of [TS]

01:02:07   film he would buy five rolls of film he [TS]

01:02:10   would get the he would get the photos in [TS]

01:02:12   the little envelopes [TS]

01:02:13   from the people you know they'll be like [TS]

01:02:15   oh Dave Roderick and then go get all the [TS]

01:02:17   pictures and bring them out and then we [TS]

01:02:18   would get would go out into the car and [TS]

01:02:20   we would look at the photographs and as [TS]

01:02:23   a chance [TS]

01:02:23   yes absolutely as a child I had no [TS]

01:02:27   context to know that my dad was a bad [TS]

01:02:29   photographer so my experience was you go [TS]

01:02:34   out and sit in the car and sort through [TS]

01:02:36   sometimes 80 photographs and and then [TS]

01:02:41   when when when you could win that [TS]

01:02:43   technology arrived where you could check [TS]

01:02:45   a box and get doubles [TS]

01:02:47   yeah that was that was the eighties man [TS]

01:02:49   we always get double prints yeah that is [TS]

01:02:50   somewhere in the eighties the photo [TS]

01:02:52   people realize like hey you know we sort [TS]

01:02:53   of like the the extra meat for a dollar [TS]

01:02:55   of fatality exactly and then you can [TS]

01:02:56   have you can give the good ones two [TS]

01:02:58   friends and my dad always got doubles [TS]

01:03:02   and so we would sit and and go through [TS]

01:03:05   these pictures and it was just like oh [TS]

01:03:07   well it seems like maybe the camera [TS]

01:03:09   fired in what was still in the bag on [TS]

01:03:11   that one and then this is the Shh shot [TS]

01:03:14   out the window of a moving car of some [TS]

01:03:16   bone polls admit there's somebody oh [TS]

01:03:19   here's one of a blurry dog that looks [TS]

01:03:22   like a person over there but i had no I [TS]

01:03:25   had no critical faculty to see like Oh [TS]

01:03:29   dad you're terrible at this stop or like [TS]

01:03:32   take a class and so my reality was [TS]

01:03:35   shaped by these photographs like I [TS]

01:03:39   understood i understood human experience [TS]

01:03:44   to be something that now I realize it [TS]

01:03:46   isn't right that this is that there's [TS]

01:03:49   that you're enacting some well first of [TS]

01:03:51   all that is incredibly hard to get a [TS]

01:03:53   photograph and that um because debt you [TS]

01:03:58   know dad didn't flip through these and [TS]

01:04:00   be like well wasted another role like [TS]

01:04:03   you know now is that was his normal to [TS]

01:04:05   it was his normal too and so so ah so I [TS]

01:04:10   had a i mean i can't i can't begin to [TS]

01:04:14   describe how my own memories of things [TS]

01:04:17   are shaped by having relived them [TS]

01:04:21   through photographs of them that seemed [TS]

01:04:23   like you were taken by mr. Magoo [TS]

01:04:26   like those but you know that way when [TS]

01:04:30   you look at a photograph of something [TS]

01:04:31   that happened a week ago and the [TS]

01:04:32   photograph kind of solidifies the memory [TS]

01:04:34   a little bit like oh that's how it [TS]

01:04:36   happened everything everything you had [TS]

01:04:38   that look like the cover of shoegaze [TS]

01:04:39   album [TS]

01:04:40   yeah right everything exactly right it's [TS]

01:04:42   like I that's why i responded so well to [TS]

01:04:44   my bloody valentine i was just like what [TS]

01:04:47   guitar i think that was a good way [TS]

01:04:48   it's just like it's just like it's like [TS]

01:04:50   it's like right before my dad took any [TS]

01:04:52   kind of pictures he went and and dip the [TS]

01:04:54   lens of his camera in the top of a [TS]

01:04:56   birthday cake we're ready now let's go [TS]

01:05:00   I've got frosting all over the lens let [TS]

01:05:02   go and and so yeah I but but so that [TS]

01:05:06   shaped my perception right so profoundly [TS]

01:05:10   and and now you know and it turns out my [TS]

01:05:13   sister is a brilliant photographer i [TS]

01:05:15   have no idea you know she was in her [TS]

01:05:18   thirties before she ever really picked [TS]

01:05:20   up a camera and planted anything and [TS]

01:05:23   from the first time I saw a photograph [TS]

01:05:24   by her I was like oh my god you're a [TS]

01:05:26   genius [TS]

01:05:26   she's got an eye because she and three [TS]

01:05:28   friends you know she and her friends [TS]

01:05:29   went around the world together and they [TS]

01:05:32   all work we're taking photographs of the [TS]

01:05:33   same things and the other two are taking [TS]

01:05:36   very very good photographs of things but [TS]

01:05:38   then my sister's photo of the exact same [TS]

01:05:41   moment which is be framed in a way that [TS]

01:05:44   both told the story and created [TS]

01:05:48   emotional tension and you know just it [TS]

01:05:51   was just like where did I had no idea [TS]

01:05:52   that was lurking inside my little sister [TS]

01:05:56   and I'm not a bad photographer but I'll [TS]

01:05:59   like oh I wish I could I wish I could [TS]

01:06:02   sit my dad down and just go through [TS]

01:06:04   these photos but the thing was he was [TS]

01:06:05   completely resistant to the idea that he [TS]

01:06:07   wasn't great at everything so it was [TS]

01:06:09   like dad what are you going for here oh [TS]

01:06:10   he's a politician [TS]

01:06:12   that's right who I don't know what my [TS]

01:06:14   finger slipped [TS]

01:06:15   14 years and I know and you made me [TS]

01:06:18   think when you met you had your your [TS]

01:06:20   monologue a while back about how [TS]

01:06:22   important it is to take and post selfies [TS]

01:06:24   just because it's a good idea and I've [TS]

01:06:26   been thinking about like the way photos [TS]

01:06:27   have changed and like now I take I take [TS]

01:06:29   photos of funny signs I take I take [TS]

01:06:32   photos of things that I see that that [TS]

01:06:33   amuse me I have a handful of photos of [TS]

01:06:35   my daughter doing things that are cute [TS]

01:06:37   but you know what [TS]

01:06:38   and one that we don't do as much as we [TS]

01:06:39   used to [TS]

01:06:40   the group photo i miss the group photo [TS]

01:06:43   yeah that you know I think I I want to [TS]

01:06:45   really get a stake in the ground get [TS]

01:06:47   better at group photos [TS]

01:06:49   yeah the group photo because they're [TS]

01:06:50   always that's so important it's always [TS]

01:06:52   it's always just like selfie lights [TS]

01:06:54   selfie group photo [TS]

01:06:56   it's very seldom where somebody stands [TS]

01:06:59   back and everybody and if you know and [TS]

01:07:02   everybody's got redeye yeah right [TS]

01:07:04   everybody's holding up a plastic egg cup [TS]

01:07:06   but I mean you know a family events and [TS]

01:07:09   stuff like that it's usually not the [TS]

01:07:11   young person who thinks to go [TS]

01:07:13   ok everybody let's do a group photo [TS]

01:07:14   because that's dorky like why would you [TS]

01:07:16   do that but like you're so I'm so glad [TS]

01:07:18   I've got some of those you know what I [TS]

01:07:19   mean [TS]

01:07:20   me too there are there are parties to [TS]

01:07:24   college parties where at the time I [TS]

01:07:28   remember looking at the group photo and [TS]

01:07:30   being like oh you know what you know why [TS]

01:07:33   did I think it was why did I think was [TS]

01:07:35   funny to stick it lit cigarette up my [TS]

01:07:36   nose that kind of pretty funny kind of [TS]

01:07:40   ruins gonna ruin the photo like I was I [TS]

01:07:42   so wanted to be cherry chase in 1979 I [TS]

01:07:45   was just like a cigarette in your ear [TS]

01:07:47   hair look at me look at me but then now [TS]

01:07:51   i look at that group photo and there's [TS]

01:07:53   25 people in it and all i'm looking at [TS]

01:07:56   all the people in the background I'm [TS]

01:07:57   just like oh right that girl you know [TS]

01:08:00   she said she went on to know her sister [TS]

01:08:02   died or you know like there's all [TS]

01:08:03   there's all those memories that the [TS]

01:08:05   group photo allows I don't know as we [TS]

01:08:09   were sitting here talking i found a [TS]

01:08:10   photograph of me and and a woman who [TS]

01:08:14   lives in Barcelona who was like a big [TS]

01:08:17   like an enormous friend of the long [TS]

01:08:20   winters one of our great boosters and [TS]

01:08:23   she was our tour manager she was our pal [TS]

01:08:26   and then right at the end after you know [TS]

01:08:30   after years of touring together and she [TS]

01:08:33   came to Seattle and live with me for a [TS]

01:08:34   while and like she was really one of our [TS]

01:08:38   number one Rock friends we went to [TS]

01:08:41   Barcelona sort of the last maybe [TS]

01:08:45   second-to-last her last trip to Spain [TS]

01:08:47   that we did and we played a huge show it [TS]

01:08:50   was a it was like a festival in downtown [TS]

01:08:53   barcelona and that there were two [TS]

01:08:55   headliners and one was the long winters [TS]

01:09:01   and the other was a british band not [TS]

01:09:15   babes in toyland was the girls girls [TS]

01:09:19   girls in the group [TS]

01:09:21   no no girls just a bunch of old white [TS]

01:09:24   guys English man english band my [TS]

01:09:26   friend's son now [TS]

01:09:28   preap their old older older than us and [TS]

01:09:32   great one of the great pop bands your [TS]

01:09:36   pop-pop pure pure guitar pop posies know [TS]

01:09:40   that that's an American band that's true [TS]

01:09:42   in English and record them playing in [TS]

01:09:44   Spain now you but you know you know what [TS]

01:09:46   I'm talking about and why would I when I [TS]

01:09:48   finally get to the name it's gonna be so [TS]

01:09:50   embarrassing on now we're keeping all [TS]

01:09:51   this in [TS]

01:09:52   uh-oh older older people older but [TS]

01:09:56   notnot tongues old like popular in the [TS]

01:09:58   eighties nineties and his band as Bush [TS]

01:10:01   not Bush not that grunge they were like [TS]

01:10:05   it they were like guitar pop posies [TS]

01:10:08   style is shared but not but better than [TS]

01:10:10   the poses and I hate to say that out [TS]

01:10:11   loud but you know what much wow and they [TS]

01:10:16   have a name like children in schools [TS]

01:10:20   from thailand children's schools found [TS]

01:10:24   that sounds wait that's not right there [TS]

01:10:26   jersey been I they were the Teenage [TS]

01:10:33   Fanclub holy shit i love teenage fanclub [TS]

01:10:36   I know you do and I do two teenage it [TS]

01:10:39   was always there so that so that will [TS]

01:10:41   give you a sense of how our career in [TS]

01:10:44   Spain with josh fanclub didn't open for [TS]

01:10:46   them they were the headliners on Friday [TS]

01:10:48   night we were the headliners on Saturday [TS]

01:10:50   night while used to be on Roderick it [TS]

01:10:52   was big it was a it was a big deal he [TS]

01:10:54   was dead a little mushy gun teenage [TS]

01:10:58   fanclub you know that they like they [TS]

01:11:00   really those guys really blew me away [TS]

01:11:05   and and always always had [TS]

01:11:07   and I was you know I mean it's hard [TS]

01:11:09   night they made my first favorite record [TS]

01:11:11   of the nineteen nineties everything [TS]

01:11:13   flows yeah right [TS]

01:11:15   my greatest rock songs of all time it's [TS]

01:11:16   hard for me to say that I'm a super fan [TS]

01:11:19   because i just took three minutes to [TS]

01:11:20   remember their name but of all of of all [TS]

01:11:24   of the all the great all great bands but [TS]

01:11:27   but of all the bands of that style of [TS]

01:11:28   that time like they really did destroy [TS]

01:11:30   me and anyway so just digest that's just [TS]

01:11:33   name-drop me to give you some sense of [TS]

01:11:35   what that when we arrived in barcelona [TS]

01:11:36   on that tour it was like are you kidding [TS]

01:11:38   me like the posters all over the city [TS]

01:11:41   and it was like teenage fanclub the long [TS]

01:11:43   winters like co-headlining this this [TS]

01:11:46   festival that was taking place on stage [TS]

01:11:48   around the city and we were playing in [TS]

01:11:51   the like the plaza may or in the center [TS]

01:11:55   it outdoors in the center of town [TS]

01:11:56   saturday night it was it was basov for [TS]

01:12:01   me and great david bazan was there i [TS]

01:12:04   don't and played on the same stage with [TS]

01:12:06   us and we jumped out i think in played [TS]

01:12:10   up as his backing band for a little [TS]

01:12:13   while I had really long hair at the time [TS]

01:12:16   maybe was missing a tooth but our good [TS]

01:12:21   friend the woman who had been with us [TS]

01:12:23   through thick and thin at the end of the [TS]

01:12:26   tour which was you know which had you [TS]

01:12:30   know it had been a couple of week to her [TS]

01:12:31   which had been with us for every every [TS]

01:12:34   night she said okay well you know you [TS]

01:12:38   your flight is tomorrow morning and i'll [TS]

01:12:40   send you guys a check [TS]

01:12:42   you know we're not want it all shakes [TS]

01:12:43   out and she never did well she absconded [TS]

01:12:47   you with with the with a big will [TS]

01:12:51   ultimately was a big bag of money and we [TS]

01:12:56   went back and forth and it was i was so [TS]

01:12:58   betrayed and it was just so devastated [TS]

01:13:00   like but you're our friend you've been [TS]

01:13:01   our friend she was like oh I just had [TS]

01:13:03   some you know I'll get it to you like [TS]

01:13:05   there was a lot of like nine months of [TS]

01:13:07   sort of like what's your bank account [TS]

01:13:08   number I'll wire it tomorrow right [TS]

01:13:10   right and and i just found a picture of [TS]

01:13:13   the two of us [TS]

01:13:16   she and I like sitting you know she's [TS]

01:13:20   kind of like leaning on me in a cafe [TS]

01:13:22   somewhere in Valladolid and I felt very [TS]

01:13:27   sentimental even as I'm sitting talking [TS]

01:13:29   to you about google photos and I sent it [TS]

01:13:30   to her I haven't communicated with her [TS]

01:13:32   in several years that's nice [TS]

01:13:35   send it to her sort of without comment [TS]

01:13:37   so we'll see we'll see how i got a [TS]

01:13:41   spanish threat it was sent it to her [TS]

01:13:44   wrapped in a newspaper route wrapped in [TS]

01:13:47   wrapped around a fish wrapped around a [TS]

01:13:49   bulletproof vest [TS]

01:13:50   after what but I got a father to DVD [TS]

01:13:53   we'll see what happens you know what [TS]

01:13:57   maybe she'll send me 10,000 euros [TS]

01:14:02   witness Nia and from cut [TS]