Roderick on the Line

Ep. 157: "Truth & Reconciliation"


00:00:00   this episode of Roderick on the line is

00:00:01   sponsored by cards against humanity this

00:00:04   month they ask paul and storm to help me

00:00:06   say hi John

00:00:09   John break

00:00:13   [Music]

00:00:22   hello hey John hi Merlin how's it going

00:00:28   Oh complicated oh no what happened

00:00:32   well complicated isn't always bad no no

00:00:36   what went well

00:00:37   well I wouldn't say it was going well

00:00:39   it's raining today in seattle from and

00:00:44   that is a good feeling that just feels

00:00:48   right

00:00:48   so I'm pleased about that but then

00:00:53   everything else is just a shitshow

00:00:57   really well no no come on now gosh you

00:01:01   get me you know what a guy like me and

00:01:03   Cena should show or two am i right

00:01:04   that's right it's in your first show you

00:01:08   know what's funny is school just ended

00:01:10   so so begins a summer of camps

00:01:15   Oh for my kid and I don't know what we

00:01:17   were thinking but right now she's a

00:01:18   track camp so she's an outdoor stadium

00:01:20   on a day when the stock should be a lot

00:01:24   of wet track track camp what it was her

00:01:27   event

00:01:28   oh you know I think it's gonna be

00:01:30   sitting and pounding probably the 10k

00:01:33   sit and pout i was super good at that

00:01:35   event you know what did

00:01:36   luckily the she's at an age where as

00:01:38   long as there is somebody that she knows

00:01:40   will be there you know that age like

00:01:42   we're like oh I can i can put up with

00:01:43   anything if my friends going to be there

00:01:45   yeah I figured out that the my best

00:01:48   event in cross country was manager

00:01:52   Oh manager that's the euphemistic

00:01:54   manager is a pick stuff up

00:01:56   I didn't I wasn't even really very good

00:01:58   at that i was a really good at standing

00:02:01   somewhere on there on the racecourse and

00:02:04   when everyone my friends ran by going

00:02:08   pick it up

00:02:10   good effort well that's good you'll get

00:02:13   coaching coaching training you're in

00:02:14   you're there to get people notes on

00:02:15   their forum i didn't know enough about

00:02:18   any of the sport to have be able to

00:02:21   comment on their forum i could just say

00:02:23   you know pick it up and that power

00:02:26   through who I mean I just wanted friends

00:02:30   yeah and I was bad

00:02:33   at making friends and having friends and

00:02:36   also bad at running or prosperity skiing

00:02:38   listen now hope you don't mind if I just

00:02:40   give you a note

00:02:42   you know as a manager here have you

00:02:43   tried running faster

00:02:45   the thing is they could all run faster

00:02:48   than me so that there was no reason any

00:02:51   of them would listen to you know what it

00:02:53   was was my girl that I liked ran

00:02:55   cross-country no man and so I just

00:03:01   wanted to be around her and so I ran

00:03:03   cross-country but you know I have this

00:03:04   habit of like stopping in the middle of

00:03:08   the race and like climbing a treating

00:03:10   retrieve a bird's nest or I just like

00:03:14   often losing the course somebody because

00:03:16   I was all alone losing the path and then

00:03:20   either running twice as far as everyone

00:03:23   else or like running onto it running up

00:03:25   like across the golf course or more

00:03:28   creative about it

00:03:29   yeah I was not I was not a I was not

00:03:33   purposeful so in the end it was agreed

00:03:36   sort of mutually agreed by everybody

00:03:38   that if I was gonna stick around that I

00:03:40   should probably just be the assistant

00:03:41   manager and and that works great for me

00:03:45   I mean I'm as you know I am made to

00:03:49   assistant manage so there's something I

00:03:53   don't know III in retrospect that I find

00:03:55   so frustrating it seems like there's an

00:03:57   elephant in the room at least when we

00:03:58   were coming up that your there's a

00:04:01   little athlete inside of each person it

00:04:04   just needs to be yelled out you know

00:04:07   that your dad certain my dad certainly

00:04:09   followed that prescription BMOC my dad

00:04:13   would stand on the side of the court

00:04:15   basketball court when I was in fifth

00:04:17   grade fifth a picture of 5th grader a

00:04:20   5th grade my dad is there at the games

00:04:22   he's screaming at the ref you're missing

00:04:26   a good game here wrap that was a foul

00:04:29   the fact rough you know and it was just

00:04:33   like I would have rather been anywhere i

00:04:37   read an article about this a couple

00:04:39   weeks ago and I saw so much myself in

00:04:41   this article and I think it might have

00:04:42   been written by like a veteran like

00:04:44   coach but the person was like you know

00:04:46   you know what you should do your kids

00:04:48   events just sit there you just don't you

00:04:51   don't you don't need to yell anything at

00:04:53   anybody don't even really need to yell

00:04:54   at them and like the thing is you're

00:04:56   embarrassing everyone you're making

00:04:58   everybody looks so bad

00:05:00   nobody thinks you look cool when you

00:05:02   yell encouragement at your kid or or you

00:05:04   know or insults well you know there's a

00:05:07   picture of my dad taken in probably 1928

00:05:12   a maybe maybe 29 and he's standing on on

00:05:19   a beach in in those kind of ankle high

00:05:23   leather boots that you needed a special

00:05:25   tool to lace i'm not sure i don't i

00:05:28   don't know that much about early 20th

00:05:30   century foot footwear but he's got

00:05:33   boxing gloves on and he's standing on

00:05:37   the beach in like full-on come at me he

00:05:42   said would you like five know he's nine

00:05:44   who full-on you know I come at me boxing

00:05:49   pose and the prospect

00:05:53   I mean it the last time I'd like to know

00:05:56   the last time in America a nine-year-old

00:05:59   was given boxing lessons like I'm sure

00:06:03   that they're it still happens i'm sure

00:06:05   they're not they're definitely tons and

00:06:07   tons and tons of nine-year-olds taking

00:06:09   taekwondo but but i think there are

00:06:14   there are a lot fewer nine-year-olds

00:06:16   like lacing up in boxing gloves and just

00:06:20   having a go at each other than they were

00:06:22   in 1929 and so I forgive my dad for all

00:06:25   all of that stuff because he couldn't

00:06:28   possibly know that yelling at the ref

00:06:31   wasn't helping right he imagined that

00:06:34   yelling at the ref was as integral part

00:06:36   of the game as at as any of the shooting

00:06:39   or coaching and it's why my dad and I'm

00:06:44   not kidding

00:06:45   so when I was a kid of course nobody

00:06:48   nobody ever nobody knew what to do with

00:06:53   dads like that or they are they that

00:06:55   everybody just assumed to it made sense

00:06:57   just like

00:06:58   smoking on airplanes but by the time my

00:07:02   dad was a grandfather to my older

00:07:06   brothers and sisters kids he actually

00:07:09   was banned from attending his grandson

00:07:13   soccer games

00:07:14   you're kidding for yelling at the coach

00:07:17   and he he was incredulous and he thought

00:07:22   it was a conspiracy of like these new

00:07:26   parents who didn't understand how you

00:07:28   know that this new generation by which

00:07:30   he meant the baby boomers who had gone

00:07:34   soft and didn't know you know and we're

00:07:36   like getting there would old feelings

00:07:38   hurt because he's standing on the

00:07:41   sidelines at a seven-year-old soccer

00:07:43   game like Yellin Yellin foul or or you

00:07:48   know just yelling at the coach yawn at

00:07:51   the opposite coach and and a he you know

00:07:56   there wasn't a he wasn't he wasn't mean

00:07:59   about it or angry he was just that was

00:08:01   the that's what you did how you played

00:08:03   games i think it's I think it's I think

00:08:06   you're right it's a generational thing

00:08:07   yeah so I never I mean when I was ten I

00:08:10   would have I i was a mortified but you

00:08:15   know what I got and what I got to be 20

00:08:17   I yelled at him about it a lot but by

00:08:18   the time I was 30 I was like oh right he

00:08:20   when he was nine people were punching

00:08:24   him in the face and he was being of his

00:08:27   father would sometimes put him in her in

00:08:30   an ice-cold bathtub a bathtub full of

00:08:33   ice water to toughen his spirit god

00:08:38   so you know like i can't i can't be mad

00:08:41   at him but boy did I not want him

00:08:44   yelling at my stupid basketball games

00:08:46   about which I cared not right right

00:08:49   right like whether we won or lost you

00:08:51   i'm I i was just like your daughter I

00:08:54   just was there because I wanted to be

00:08:55   with my friends and honestly like

00:09:00   running up and down and throwing balls

00:09:02   at each other was not was the worst

00:09:04   possible solution to the fret how to be

00:09:08   with friends problem there

00:09:09   they're simpler ways that don't require

00:09:11   shorts

00:09:11   you know so many but I put a after our

00:09:15   last episode I was reflecting on this a

00:09:16   lot like what did what did I want to do

00:09:20   what what I have been pleased to do you

00:09:24   know I don't think about it too

00:09:25   I don't know what I would have been

00:09:26   pleased to do and would you have known

00:09:28   would you have to use a sports analogy

00:09:29   like would you have known if the right

00:09:32   pitch was coming to you would you even

00:09:33   would you even know if it was something

00:09:35   when you're at that age where they're

00:09:36   calling you an asshole in school would

00:09:38   you even have known like how I this this

00:09:41   this this week went really well because

00:09:43   these like three things happen to put me

00:09:45   on my past

00:09:46   yeah right i mean chess club know a lord

00:09:51   of the rings club not even really there

00:09:53   I want to kill John to kill I'm sorry I

00:09:56   wanted the Lord of the Rings guild and

00:09:58   we had very passionate feelings about

00:10:00   the dune guild that sat on the other

00:10:01   side of french class but we need the

00:10:04   spice but we did not but that didn't

00:10:07   give me a better give me that much

00:10:09   relief if I if I if I reflect back into

00:10:15   my daydreams in seventh grade what I was

00:10:18   really hoping was that the Soviet Union

00:10:20   would invade you can only be called into

00:10:23   action all of your expertise on

00:10:25   airplanes and military procedures that

00:10:28   you would be you would be it would be a

00:10:29   little bit like ender's game like you

00:10:31   would be a savant there be like we need

00:10:32   to train this kid he's right he's got

00:10:34   his he literally has his own flight suit

00:10:36   yeah do you remember what you remember

00:10:37   the pavement a song we are underused yes

00:10:44   that's my best impression of his singing

00:10:47   we are underused it's really carried a

00:10:53   really weird church i think that being a

00:10:56   payment fan in the nineties was being in

00:10:58   a weird church the first time i heard

00:11:04   that song hyper first into tears

00:11:06   oh god the idea that we are underused

00:11:10   and and the and the implication that

00:11:15   there is that that the you you you will

00:11:19   never find a use for yourself really a

00:11:21   proper like full use of yourself

00:11:24   honey I'm surprised and your catch and

00:11:27   we're a perfect match like together

00:11:29   strangers up Jesus that's still let's

00:11:33   look at me shivers right i mean that he

00:11:35   was firing on all cylinders at that

00:11:36   point but but that I mean that was such

00:11:38   a what we took away from that at the

00:11:40   time was the the world losers or

00:11:42   whatever but but but somehow when I see

00:11:46   people in the world who are perfectly

00:11:48   utilized oh yes it's I'm very seldom

00:11:53   impressed either by the person or by the

00:11:56   use that they have found for themselves

00:11:58   right or the used to like the kids like

00:12:01   I remember being insanely jealous of a

00:12:04   kid from Japan who is younger than me

00:12:06   who had the highest IQ in the world and

00:12:09   I remember thinking like there's got to

00:12:10   be some kind of jam up here like how did

00:12:12   this guy get the high-iq you always get

00:12:13   the same as anything involving against

00:12:15   aged parents

00:12:16   we're like that kid really want to be

00:12:18   out there tap dancing right now well

00:12:19   that's the thing where is that kid with

00:12:21   the hot who had the highest IQ in 1982

00:12:23   I'm going doubt busy now right

00:12:26   I mean that's what's so wonderful about

00:12:27   knowing ken jennings because ken is one

00:12:30   of these people that that performed on a

00:12:34   on a worldwide stage in a way equivalent

00:12:37   to Marilyn Vos savant where it's just

00:12:40   like oh look at this

00:12:42   he is literally the smartest guy in the

00:12:44   world because he won this game 70 @ + x

00:12:48   and then you meet him and you're like he

00:12:50   is he is genuinely like super bright and

00:12:53   super good as he seems fast he's pleased

00:12:57   very fast he's and the thing is the

00:12:59   thing that you would never suspect about

00:13:01   him even though he is a total nerd is

00:13:03   that he has a pee has an extensive

00:13:06   knowledge like yours like a knowledge

00:13:08   across every you cannot make an inside

00:13:11   indie rock reference that he won't get

00:13:14   no hitting now that surprises me

00:13:16   it's amazing right and it and and you

00:13:18   cannot make like an inside reference

00:13:22   really too very much that can won't not

00:13:26   just get but also like turn into a pun

00:13:30   and I frustration demonstrate that was

00:13:34   the day when i first met John Nelson the

00:13:35   same experience of just like oh he gets

00:13:37   everything and it's great but you know

00:13:40   but then being friends with him

00:13:42   you realize like and and being the

00:13:44   smartest the hip being the world's

00:13:45   smartest boy and not being in this

00:13:47   matching pumpkins ken jennings wow nice

00:13:51   call just now try you know name is

00:13:55   William he's made can is making a living

00:13:58   writing books and books of trivia and

00:14:01   and funny books and so forth but like

00:14:03   that there wasn't he was not they didn't

00:14:07   put him up on a litter and carry him up

00:14:09   and Princess Leia gave him a metal and

00:14:12   then his problems were solved right he's

00:14:14   he is still under utilized right and and

00:14:18   it's a it's fascinating to think you

00:14:21   know what if you would if you want him

00:14:23   up but what if he would've would've

00:14:24   DARPA came and gave ken jennings own

00:14:27   office

00:14:28   you know I had I'm so sympathetic

00:14:31   because this is this is gonna be mom

00:14:34   makes me such a loser because I'm a

00:14:35   loser but you know it's like that

00:14:36   feeling when you're younger and you're

00:14:38   like there's got to be something that I

00:14:40   would be so great at like I know like

00:14:42   you look at somebody was like okay

00:14:43   you're tall you can run fast and you

00:14:46   don't freak out on a team

00:14:47   well obviously you're going to be a

00:14:48   basketball player like there's such a

00:14:50   path for you if you choose to take it

00:14:52   you may not choose to take it but there

00:14:53   is a job

00:14:54   anybody with this kind of freakish

00:14:57   combination of skills could have and I'm

00:14:58   like I've got so many freaking

00:15:00   combinations of skills I've just never

00:15:01   found the CIA job for me I know it's

00:15:04   gotta be out there said I'm an analyst

00:15:06   for something I just don't know what yet

00:15:07   haha well so two things i was reading in

00:15:11   the newspaper today an article about

00:15:13   General Wesley Clark and he was the

00:15:17   general of the army and then ran for

00:15:20   president in 2004 out or you know like

00:15:23   trying to get the Democratic nomination

00:15:25   and lost and since that time he has been

00:15:27   basically he will join the board of

00:15:31   directors of any penny stock company at

00:15:35   if you pay him enough and so he's got

00:15:38   some record where he was he's been on

00:15:40   the board of 18 companies and 16 of them

00:15:42   have gone bankrupt and and it's just

00:15:47   like really like he was valedictorian at

00:15:49   West Point's

00:15:51   and a Rhodes Scholar and you know a

00:15:54   four-star general and that and this is

00:15:57   this give me a cold chill to realize

00:15:59   that it at 60 years old he was like well

00:16:01   maybe I'll just maybe I'll just be a

00:16:05   fraud now for a while making money could

00:16:07   be on the board of a place called

00:16:08   grilled cheese truck grilled cheese

00:16:10   truck think we'd love it if you joined

00:16:12   us with the investment the silver-haired

00:16:13   Clark 70 says in a promotional video

00:16:15   company called the grilled cheese truck

00:16:17   picture standing in front of a statue of

00:16:19   bald eagle and replica Oval Office we're

00:16:21   gonna be one of the fastest growing

00:16:22   companies in America salutes losing

00:16:26   money hasn't signed any veterans

00:16:28   franchisees oh my god there is i mean

00:16:32   you know literally almost a retired

00:16:36   director of the CIA it's here it's

00:16:38   almost your dream job he could be your

00:16:39   dream cautionary tale

00:16:40   yeah exactly don't panic lettuce John

00:16:42   lot of money and hydroponic lettuce so

00:16:44   the tell you what that is a booming

00:16:46   industry people like fresh food Maryland

00:16:48   is it you know it's getting harder and

00:16:49   harder

00:16:50   you can't get enough fresh food in this

00:16:51   country huh but the thing that occurred

00:16:54   to me the other day we have now crossed

00:16:56   a hundred and fifty episodes of our

00:16:59   program and it's not it's not fair to

00:17:02   say that the program has become self

00:17:04   aware because it was always pretty

00:17:06   self-aware it's not artificially

00:17:08   intelligent it naturally intelligent but

00:17:10   two things occurred to me one

00:17:13   I believe we have we've crossed the

00:17:17   threshold where it is pop it is

00:17:19   plausible that someone will be listening

00:17:23   to this program after you and I have

00:17:26   died

00:17:26   how did little early for that

00:17:29   well this is what I'm saying like yeah

00:17:31   it may not be maybe we have a legacy

00:17:33   whether we like it or not it probably

00:17:35   will not be my grandkids because they

00:17:38   are not going to give a shit but

00:17:40   somebody simulated space pod cast will

00:17:43   be that's right they'll be who

00:17:44   well you know what they'll probably

00:17:46   listening to banjo musical would have

00:17:48   come back around but but you know some

00:17:51   researchers some college nerd some

00:17:53   somebody at that it at the you know

00:17:56   because even though it feels to us like

00:17:58   there are millions and millions of

00:18:00   podcast too many podcasts in fact it's

00:18:02   still very early

00:18:04   days we are one of the early ones that

00:18:06   have achieved a lot of episodes so so so

00:18:11   that so imagining that and imagining

00:18:13   that in fact this conversation that

00:18:15   we're having right now will one day be

00:18:17   listened to by someone after we're dead

00:18:19   and they will think to themselves that

00:18:21   is me that they're talking about me

00:18:24   future person gave me pause but then I

00:18:31   realized that we early podcasters are

00:18:35   ideal candidates for a colonization by

00:18:41   AI developers because if you are

00:18:46   developing an artificial intelligence

00:18:48   and you want that AI to be some

00:18:51   interactive and human all you gotta feed

00:18:55   it lots of existing information to have

00:18:57   a kind of bone up on the culture exactly

00:18:59   like engine i get a lot of Broadcasters

00:19:01   wonderfully 757 is a lot of episodes too

00:19:04   and that's that's a lot for any added

00:19:05   gobble down

00:19:06   well the thing is a I you know using a

00:19:08   using planks theorem

00:19:11   yeah yes right and Bernoulli's principle

00:19:12   and i will be able to just download that

00:19:15   stuff just straight the Ultron got

00:19:16   everything in like 10 seconds see

00:19:18   exactly so so you know a lot of

00:19:21   Broadcasters out there have a lot more

00:19:22   hours of talking on the air than we do

00:19:24   but most of that is asking interview

00:19:26   questions or in garrison killer is just

00:19:29   reading some bullshit stories about fake

00:19:31   people

00:19:33   ah of podcasters who are talking about

00:19:37   to talking to one another about each

00:19:39   other and themselves are this link very

00:19:43   right data set in so many ways because

00:19:47   you get the obviously you get unless

00:19:48   let's be honest this is a nutritionally

00:19:50   rich program there's a lot of food for

00:19:52   thought here but there's also going to

00:19:54   learn about cadences you're gonna learn

00:19:55   about all kinds of stuff about sentence

00:19:57   structure you can learn with weird

00:19:59   phrases like that everybody's using like

00:20:00   that technology like where that started

00:20:02   that's right and exactly so that means

00:20:04   of Technology come on that's going to be

00:20:06   them

00:20:07   I mean think about the company that that

00:20:09   is called thought technology registered

00:20:12   trademark at you and I should yes well

00:20:15   anyway

00:20:17   we'll talk to lawyers after we get our

00:20:19   grilled cheese truck off the ground

00:20:21   hydroponic grilled cheese start of God

00:20:23   technology registered trademark but yeah

00:20:26   exactly like like we because we have

00:20:29   never had a guest on this program

00:20:31   what is the primary way that two people

00:20:33   interact right it's conversation and the

00:20:35   and the cadences the back-and-forth the

00:20:37   fact that you know knowing when to when

00:20:40   to zig and zag so like all of a sudden I

00:20:44   got this weird feeling that it might not

00:20:46   just be that someone in the future is

00:20:48   listening to our podcast after we're

00:20:51   dead but in fact that we may become

00:20:53   prototype AI personalities the the front

00:21:01   faces because right once you once you

00:21:03   develop that technology and it's working

00:21:05   you're going to be starved for enough

00:21:09   data to construct a full personality

00:21:11   right and you're never gonna have enough

00:21:14   of them

00:21:15   you're never going to get along at all

00:21:18   because you don't want to feed them all

00:21:20   encyclopedias and they're not going to

00:21:21   be that they're not gonna be the same

00:21:22   you're gonna want obviously most people

00:21:25   are going to want scarlett johansson em

00:21:28   but there are gonna be people who want

00:21:30   you know uh may I friend who is a

00:21:34   middle-aged um candidate for sending out

00:21:38   a middle-aged guy who's to just just

00:21:40   trying to figure stuff out

00:21:42   so you're saying like it could even be

00:21:43   15-20 years you might be somebody

00:21:44   samsung phone

00:21:45   yeah right rightly so that means to

00:21:47   start yeah right and and the the big

00:21:51   question is will we have any control

00:21:52   over that

00:21:53   or will it just be one day you know

00:21:55   they-they-they pitch my voice up a two

00:21:58   clicks and they you know they put a

00:22:00   flanger on you there like right now it's

00:22:03   got nothing to do with those guys that's

00:22:05   a that's the day I we've been working on

00:22:07   oh I see what you're saying it's a

00:22:08   banksy kind of thing you taking you turn

00:22:09   it to make a little bit different and

00:22:11   now you've transformative art right you

00:22:14   take it you turn

00:22:15   uh-huh that's a thought like that is

00:22:17   that you know what that's the motto of

00:22:18   thought technology I think you take it

00:22:21   you're taken in turn a boy and suddenly

00:22:25   this feels like a lot more

00:22:26   responsibility

00:22:27   I feel like I mean I want to be myself

00:22:28   because I want my AI

00:22:30   to be you know cohesive but I feel like

00:22:32   maybe I should be on the dick jokes

00:22:33   well but that may be that you mean

00:22:36   you're scrolling through a list of

00:22:38   services to 10,000 possible AI friends

00:22:40   and it's like you know middle-aged guy

00:22:44   middle-aged guy middle-aged guy all

00:22:46   middle-aged guy with some dick jokes for

00:22:47   that seems like a good friend for me to

00:22:49   play flanger on that middle-aged guy

00:22:52   from Ohio spend a lot of time in florida

00:22:54   make some dick jokes sometimes hard to

00:22:57   parse exactly what he means well I'm

00:23:01   gonna try it i'm gonna try it on

00:23:03   click yet you know it's possible who the

00:23:08   the problem the problem the problem of

00:23:10   you know the problem of self-awareness

00:23:15   both that our podcast has become

00:23:16   self-aware and also that you and I have

00:23:19   too much self-awareness is that

00:23:22   especially in my current in my current

00:23:26   pursuits self-awareness we've talked

00:23:30   about this for years is a major

00:23:32   disadvantage

00:23:34   you know i think the number one reason

00:23:37   that Hitler was so successful is he had

00:23:39   no self-awareness and it was only that

00:23:42   he and and then it ended up being his

00:23:44   downfall his lack of self-awareness out

00:23:48   but for 10 years they're really served

00:23:50   him well let's talk my daughter about

00:23:52   this yesterday you're talking to your

00:23:54   daughter yesterday about Hitler

00:23:56   self-awareness well yeah pretty much

00:23:57   just talking about like you know you

00:24:01   mean I mean Justin I'm sorry is this a

00:24:02   fact but I mean you know you know think

00:24:05   how much better he would have done this

00:24:07   is a whole show so I should even

00:24:08   introduced this but think how much

00:24:10   better that I would have done if he

00:24:11   hadn't tried to go into Russia think how

00:24:13   different that game would have been he

00:24:15   could he could have held his own pretty

00:24:17   damn good against everybody if he if

00:24:19   he'd been a little more software and

00:24:21   said you know what this is good for now

00:24:22   let's let's rest for a couple years

00:24:24   let's build things up a little bit but

00:24:25   wasn't that huge wasn't a huge problem

00:24:27   was that he was like all just want to

00:24:28   know just sense of dudes over there and

00:24:30   walk walk into the tundra and it will be

00:24:32   good if he had stopped in Czechoslovakia

00:24:34   we'd be living in a different world and

00:24:38   you know it's it's it's terrible to say

00:24:40   it it's terrible to say like you know

00:24:42   all these people want to

00:24:43   back in time and kill Hitler it's a very

00:24:46   small minority of people that want to go

00:24:48   back in time and advised him to just be

00:24:50   satisfied with prague should never have

00:24:55   invaded Poland that was that was and

00:24:56   then Russia come on the other thing what

00:24:59   you're saying no talking about your

00:25:00   current pursuits I it's it's interesting

00:25:03   to think about somebody who is really

00:25:05   good at sounding informal and off the

00:25:10   cuff and not done self-aware but not

00:25:13   sounding because here's ok what's the

00:25:14   worst the worst is that you start

00:25:16   thinking about what you're going to say

00:25:18   you think about it too much and you

00:25:19   think about how it's going to sound and

00:25:20   I selling a weasel you have to be it

00:25:22   seems to me like you have to be able to

00:25:24   whether it's just your bullet points or

00:25:26   whatever but with growing sophistication

00:25:27   as a candidate it seems like you've got

00:25:29   to get fast at sounding natural without

00:25:32   sounding like you're trying to sound

00:25:33   natural

00:25:34   well yeah and the problem is that i

00:25:36   already sound natural but that isn't

00:25:39   really what people want they want you to

00:25:42   sound natural but not really

00:25:46   this is my stand-up comedy so daunting

00:25:48   to me when i watch me as a stand-up

00:25:50   comedy is something I'm I enjoy a lot

00:25:52   when it's done well but i find it really

00:25:55   scary because if you think about what's

00:25:57   involved in coming up with those bits

00:25:59   and refining them and listening to the

00:26:01   tapes and getting to where you know

00:26:02   whatever it was Louis CK can come out

00:26:04   and make a joke that sounds like he he

00:26:06   just said something accidentally and

00:26:08   then make a joke about how he said it

00:26:09   accidentally but that's all part of the

00:26:11   bit and how do you do that without

00:26:12   sounding like you're reading off sheet

00:26:13   like that takes a tremendous amount of

00:26:15   self-awareness yeah the more you do it

00:26:17   the less you hope you sound like

00:26:19   yourself aware that you're doing a bit

00:26:20   of Europe

00:26:21   well this is the this is the back to the

00:26:23   underused question like a none of that

00:26:26   appeals to me and I don't know whether

00:26:30   the fact that i don't know whether and

00:26:32   and i suspect that this is true when you

00:26:35   talk to stand-up comics like you polish

00:26:40   Tompkins and I had kind of a fight one

00:26:42   time not a fight but like a you know a a

00:26:46   it wasn't it wasn't like friendly Sparky

00:26:49   you guys had a real fight I don't think

00:26:50   we have five targets around anymore

00:26:52   no no no calls it also because you know

00:26:54   he and I are the same parents

00:26:56   this isn't in your pocket he's a big guy

00:26:58   compared to say the a like 50 the mouse

00:27:04   that's true that's the point

00:27:05   yeah but uh but i think i think what he

00:27:08   was trying to say in the in our in our

00:27:12   like a minor disagreement was that he

00:27:16   didn't like that either

00:27:19   I you know that being a stand-up comic

00:27:22   it is not dependent on liking it you do

00:27:27   it anyway right you don't let the craft

00:27:29   yeah and this is the thing about

00:27:31   everything right you don't it's very

00:27:33   it's like if you are seven and a half

00:27:35   feet tall and and have big lungs and a

00:27:41   big heart you have a job waiting for you

00:27:44   in basketball but it doesn't necessarily

00:27:45   mean that you liked it and I wonder how

00:27:51   many of us have spent our lives being

00:27:56   confused that we don't seem to like the

00:28:00   the things that were either natural at

00:28:03   or the things that were pushed into I

00:28:05   think it's huge and at and then you know

00:28:08   and what when you when you think about

00:28:10   people that are a success at that stuff

00:28:12   I think it's probably a small proportion

00:28:15   of them that are that genuinely would

00:28:17   say like from the moment I started I

00:28:19   knew that you know not just that i knew

00:28:21   that i wanted it but that I liked it

00:28:24   you know I I wanted to be a stand-up

00:28:27   comic i knew that i wanted to but the

00:28:30   prospect of listening to myself be a bad

00:28:33   stand-up comic on a tape in order to get

00:28:36   better at being a stand-up comic

00:28:37   you might as well just put pour salt in

00:28:39   my eyes

00:28:41   yeah it a part of it also is that you

00:28:45   know there's I think that people

00:28:46   concatenate too many different aspects

00:28:50   of a career or whatever you call job and

00:28:52   interest in education

00:28:54   well like I always think it's important

00:28:55   to distinguish between things like what

00:28:57   is you want to do what it is you want to

00:28:59   be what it is you like doing like how do

00:29:02   you like spending your time and what do

00:29:04   you like having made

00:29:05   and I don't think there's that many

00:29:07   people were all those always line up all

00:29:09   the time and that's what throws people

00:29:11   off with a let's say you wanted to be I

00:29:12   mean dick for a lot of stand-up comics

00:29:14   that originally went to be a basketball

00:29:15   player right but like you don't have the

00:29:17   height you don't have the hands you

00:29:18   don't have the lungs you don't you know

00:29:20   but you find that there's this thing

00:29:21   that you kind of can do or you find

00:29:23   yourself sort of falling into I think

00:29:25   that's true for so many jobs

00:29:27   yeah and but you know I think the thing

00:29:29   a lot of people overlook is what you're

00:29:31   describing which is like being a

00:29:32   stand-up comedian is not just being

00:29:34   funny and getting girls on the road it's

00:29:37   a lot of like you say listen to yourself

00:29:39   be a not-very-good stand-up comic on the

00:29:40   road to being less bad which is just

00:29:42   intolerable

00:29:43   I mean it's just you know it's weird

00:29:45   that like like with like you and me like

00:29:48   I don't get stage fright exactly i like

00:29:51   being in front of people I like doing

00:29:52   stuff I feel like I really thrive you

00:29:54   know when i'm doing whatever in front of

00:29:56   people but a weirdly unnatural thing to

00:29:59   do but like it works like it makes sense

00:30:01   it's like I do i really like doing it

00:30:04   but you know I don't know I don't know I

00:30:06   think you're I think you're onto

00:30:07   something though in terms of the being

00:30:08   underused because it's so if you want

00:30:11   something that's way out of reach but

00:30:13   you never even attempted to do now I'm

00:30:14   going into another show here but like if

00:30:16   you're doing this thing that's way out

00:30:17   of reach and not even close to anything

00:30:19   you've ever done or made before and you

00:30:21   don't understand enough about the

00:30:22   process to know whether you're on the

00:30:24   right path or or making the right

00:30:26   mistakes even it's like how would you

00:30:28   even know that that's just a recipe for

00:30:30   disaster

00:30:31   I remember the first time i was

00:30:33   introduced to Richard Feynman the

00:30:37   physicist physicist the first time I

00:30:40   remember the first time

00:30:41   oh you mean his work I remember my first

00:30:43   time ya know I was never personally

00:30:45   introduced him but introduced him as a

00:30:47   as a character introduced to his writing

00:30:49   yeah and you know he was there he was

00:30:53   very adept at presenting himself as

00:30:57   someone who had whoo-whoo-whoo-whoo was

00:31:01   kind of fully realized and there was

00:31:06   obviously something crazy about him but

00:31:09   but his self presentation of somebody

00:31:13   who not only is a nobel-prize-winning

00:31:14   physics genius but also a safecracker

00:31:17   and

00:31:17   and a you know a competitive Archer and

00:31:21   a ladies man and a you know and again a

00:31:24   breakdancer and of you and a half finish

00:31:27   carpenter you know he and you meet you

00:31:30   meet people like that who who have a lot

00:31:34   of pride in themselves and and all and i

00:31:39   are very accomplished without a question

00:31:41   i remember reading his books at an

00:31:43   impressionable age and feeling like you

00:31:47   know that that was the standard even as

00:31:49   I recognized that was the standard of of

00:31:51   like human realize ate like personal

00:31:55   realization

00:31:56   huh what the same time also realizing

00:31:59   that me

00:32:00   probably i would not enjoy him as a

00:32:05   personal friend or you know that over

00:32:08   time he would be wearing and and that

00:32:14   there was something false also about his

00:32:18   self promotion

00:32:23   I guess you know and then later on there

00:32:26   was a guy I knew who use who was like a

00:32:30   punk rockers how squatting gutter Punk

00:32:34   guy that was a friend of mine and he and

00:32:36   I were party buddies back when party

00:32:40   right in that period where party stopped

00:32:43   meeting fun time you know what I mean

00:32:47   it's like yeah we're going to a party

00:32:50   all right to party and it's like no work

00:32:52   partying like partying became a verb

00:32:55   yeah right it is not where we are not

00:32:56   this isn't fun anymore this is like

00:32:59   serious business and at a certain point

00:33:01   I you know I didn't see him for a couple

00:33:04   of weeks and then he shows up and his

00:33:09   head is shaved and he's wearing like all

00:33:13   natural fiber clothes and he looks very

00:33:17   serene and I was like a man what the you

00:33:20   know like what's up and he's like I

00:33:24   decided that my life was on the wrong

00:33:26   path and I'm going to

00:33:30   I'm going to Tibet and i'm going to

00:33:34   pursue that you know minute i'm gonna

00:33:36   get on the right path and by by which he

00:33:39   meant like going to go in the whole hog

00:33:42   tibetan buddhism well and I was like

00:33:45   what does that mean you don't want to

00:33:47   like go get baked and play video games

00:33:50   and he was like i do not and he kind of

00:33:54   like sailed out of my life on a you know

00:33:58   on a kind of magic carpet of like

00:34:04   whatever stacked up flip flops

00:34:07   however it is you make that journey

00:34:09   before but before he made that change

00:34:14   I knew him to be like one of those like

00:34:17   hippie punks who was really super

00:34:20   righteous about things but also was

00:34:22   maybe the most misogynist person you'd

00:34:24   ever met you know yeah that's right you

00:34:25   know the type

00:34:26   I know the type where it's like you are

00:34:28   super duper righteous but you are such a

00:34:30   dick to your girlfriend and to every

00:34:32   woman i know that there's something very

00:34:34   broken in you and I do not believe i do

00:34:37   not believe and you know and he sailed

00:34:41   out of my life I've never seen him again

00:34:42   but but presumably he q could also you

00:34:49   could have also followed that pellet

00:34:51   path to self actualization and he might

00:34:57   have even addressed the the the bad dog

00:35:00   inside of him but I'm sitting here now

00:35:04   and I i find it very difficult to look

00:35:08   in the mirror and address myself like

00:35:10   hello I am looking at you now and we are

00:35:16   trying to decide what to do with

00:35:19   ourselves and what to do in life like

00:35:24   I'm checking in i'm checking in with you

00:35:26   you i'm looking at you and you are me

00:35:29   you know if I get you talking to the you

00:35:33   the world sees well no I mean I fight

00:35:35   like trying to talk to trying to get out

00:35:39   of the place where I'm talking to myself

00:35:41   inside my head

00:35:42   alright oh it's hard it's harder than it

00:35:44   sounds right and then actually recognize

00:35:46   that i'm talking to you know a living

00:35:49   being who is half way through the normal

00:35:55   lifespan and he's trying to do good and

00:35:59   trying to do good at a multitude of

00:36:01   levels trying to do good for other

00:36:02   people trying to do good for myself

00:36:04   trying to do good for the people that

00:36:06   love me trying to you know be a good

00:36:08   neighbor trying to be a good driver

00:36:10   trying to you know like all these things

00:36:13   and it's very easy to sit for hours and

00:36:15   hours and hours talking to myself inside

00:36:18   my you know my little Plato's cave but

00:36:25   to really just stand in front of a

00:36:27   mirror and say you know like all of this

00:36:30   all of these multitudes of worlds are

00:36:34   happening just inside me and I am alone

00:36:38   in this room and now i'm really trying

00:36:42   to actually like have some sympathy for

00:36:45   this person i recognized in this

00:36:49   reflection it's excruciating and I feel

00:36:54   like right now I need it i feel very

00:36:55   alone right now in this in my campaign

00:36:59   you know that there's what once you have

00:37:01   been in joined this world there isn't

00:37:04   any you i can't take a break you know

00:37:08   what I mean like I can't go back to my

00:37:09   normal life for a couple of days from a

00:37:11   practical standpoint and you can deepen

00:37:13   the in the slog at this point right deep

00:37:15   in this log and a lot of people that

00:37:17   that are helping me are you know they're

00:37:21   there

00:37:21   it's very easy for people to be like

00:37:22   well I you know the candidates just got

00:37:24   to go do the things so anyway I'm gonna

00:37:27   go back to my life for a while and if he

00:37:29   needs me he'll reach out or you know a

00:37:31   lot of lot of people helping the

00:37:33   campaign but it can't be a full-time job

00:37:36   for them and it's it it's very easy for

00:37:41   three or four days to go by where where

00:37:44   every one of the 20 people that has

00:37:47   pledged to help me kind of feels like

00:37:49   the other 19 are probably picking up the

00:37:51   slack while they go do a thing

00:37:55   or where they you know they have to do

00:37:56   their normal job or they go tend to

00:37:59   their family and in fact all 20 of them

00:38:02   are doing something else and three or

00:38:05   four days go by and I'm just you know I

00:38:08   have all these little events i have to

00:38:11   do that stack up six a day but then I

00:38:16   get I you know no one is minding the

00:38:19   store of the of the that realm of the

00:38:22   imagination right no one is minding the

00:38:24   store of that place where i wanted to

00:38:28   run a campaign that was very different

00:38:30   and I'm just trying to I'm just trying

00:38:34   to leave this appointment that ends at

00:38:36   two and make it to that point that ends

00:38:38   at two forty-five and on your end up

00:38:42   being impaired being the one reliable

00:38:44   person on the one-man team I'm you know

00:38:47   I'm the only one I mean I'm the only

00:38:49   person that is it that has to do

00:38:51   everything over there has to be at

00:38:53   everything and that makes sense but I'm

00:38:57   not used to reaching out to people at a

00:39:02   a personal emotional level even up even

00:39:05   when nothing is at stake or even at the

00:39:06   beach the best of circumstances it's

00:39:09   very hard for me to say to the three

00:39:11   people who love me the most

00:39:12   can I have a hug and so you know

00:39:17   exceptionally difficult to recognize

00:39:19   that I am emotionally taxed and confused

00:39:26   and you know and struggling to keep the

00:39:31   things that matter to me in focus as my

00:39:34   daily routine turns into this cycle of

00:39:37   things that don't especially matter to

00:39:40   me but need to get done right and it's a

00:39:43   and so so I need to I need to be able to

00:39:48   look into the that mirror and say like

00:39:50   hello we are you and I me and then this

00:39:56   reflection of me that's the only the

00:39:59   only way i know to confront myself it in

00:40:04   this different way

00:40:06   you know like I'm on your team at least

00:40:09   like there's one person in the room but

00:40:11   I am on your team and the you know the

00:40:15   the reflection in the mirror just wants

00:40:18   to get away

00:40:19   it does not want it doesn't want to be

00:40:21   talked to that way and it just wants to

00:40:24   you know its eyes a light on the first

00:40:27   shiny thing in the room that it can it

00:40:31   can go to and and start to play with

00:40:33   like oh shit there's a pair of scissors

00:40:36   you know I haven't sharpen those

00:40:37   scissors and it's also anytime I think

00:40:42   anytime I try to find some room

00:40:45   I don't make some dire but you know

00:40:47   anytime you want to try some find some

00:40:49   relief from how you feel especially how

00:40:51   relief but how you feel about who you

00:40:53   are but there are these different roads

00:40:55   that you can take including things like

00:40:57   talking in the mirror or you know you

00:40:58   with any example something like that

00:41:00   troubles like if you don't do that when

00:41:03   things are going ok or when things are

00:41:05   going well it can make it feel a little

00:41:08   chancy to do that when you're not

00:41:10   feeling well things like you know if the

00:41:12   thing is like it's easy it's easy to

00:41:14   like I've been interested in things like

00:41:15   mindfulness and things like that it's

00:41:17   it's it's easy to get an easy it's a

00:41:20   attractive to me to think a lot about

00:41:22   mindfulness when things are going poorly

00:41:24   it's not as attractive to think about it

00:41:25   when things are going well because

00:41:27   things are going well that's the entire

00:41:28   point of the mindfulness problem is that

00:41:30   like you you're not noticing the little

00:41:33   barometric changes throughout throughout

00:41:35   your life and then throughout even a

00:41:37   given day and so like right when you're

00:41:39   at the point you know this guy needs a

00:41:40   pep talk

00:41:40   alright you know or whatever you're

00:41:41   looking at a Wow who's that who's that

00:41:43   old failure

00:41:44   yeah too late now well the thing is the

00:41:46   heart it's way harder for me because i

00:41:50   have tried numerous times in my life

00:41:52   when I've done something well to go

00:41:55   alright hey yeah you know into the man

00:41:58   always said you're not you're you feel

00:42:00   like you're not good at not even rest on

00:42:02   your laurels like you have trouble even

00:42:03   enjoying like a moment of nominal

00:42:05   victory even a moment you know you walk

00:42:07   off the stage at a triumphant

00:42:09   performance and I walk in and I look at

00:42:12   I just started using the second person

00:42:15   rather than the first the you walk up

00:42:17   the stage and up and it's like no

00:42:19   there have been moments in my life when

00:42:21   I have walked off the stage or have

00:42:22   walked out of the the interview or out

00:42:25   of the the the test or whatever and

00:42:29   walked immediately into the bathroom and

00:42:31   stood there and looked at myself in the

00:42:33   mirror and said you did a good job that

00:42:36   was good you did good there and the

00:42:40   reflection in the mirror

00:42:42   squirms uncomfortably and wants to get

00:42:44   out of that situation even more then

00:42:47   when you know because i think the

00:42:49   impulse is the same

00:42:50   uh-huh to say like you know your ok you

00:42:54   did good like I see you I'm

00:42:56   acknowledging that you did well and I

00:42:59   just don't I don't know how to receive

00:43:01   and I don't want to hear it and so yeah

00:43:03   be that the number of opportunities on

00:43:07   the campaign trail to walk out of a

00:43:10   thing and say like wow that was a lot

00:43:12   better than i expected that went really

00:43:13   well that that happens every day too but

00:43:20   the nature of campaigning is always like

00:43:23   what was the last good thing you did and

00:43:27   if it was longer ago than 30 minutes

00:43:30   it's in the past and so I'm I'm already

00:43:36   pretty bad at stacking up

00:43:38   accomplishments and saying like I'm

00:43:40   doing well I'm a good person and and in

00:43:44   this you know in this world where it's

00:43:46   just like you I walk out of an interview

00:43:47   with a with some democratic organization

00:43:50   you know I went to interview the other

00:43:51   day with the King County Democrats which

00:43:54   is a board of directors of about 20

00:43:56   people from every legislative district

00:43:59   in King County says like above the

00:44:01   cording various district groups its yeah

00:44:05   this is now but a big show

00:44:07   it's the big show but it's also like I

00:44:10   when a voter is reading their voter

00:44:13   guide and it says endorsed by the 32nd

00:44:18   district Democrats the 43rd district

00:44:21   Democrats the King County Democrats I

00:44:25   don't know how a voter Parsons that or

00:44:28   four measures that are you know it

00:44:30   matters to people that are members of

00:44:31   those groups but though

00:44:32   so you know I don't and I don't even

00:44:35   know how much but like I went to this

00:44:39   meeting and it was a great meeting

00:44:40   everybody really responded well to me I

00:44:43   felt at home and and and on top of the

00:44:49   you know like like a water ski boat

00:44:52   that's up on step i was just like i had

00:44:55   gotten above the waves and was just

00:44:56   skirting across the surface of the lake

00:44:59   and and people were nodding emphatically

00:45:01   and was a great conversation whether or

00:45:04   not they endorse my endorsement I have

00:45:06   no idea but left that meeting went

00:45:09   immediately to another meeting where I

00:45:11   just felt completely out of my body and

00:45:14   trying to give a speech to a roomful of

00:45:17   people though that I couldn't gauge and

00:45:20   they weren't really looking at me they

00:45:23   were all playing with their salads and

00:45:26   you know when i get home that evening

00:45:30   like what am i what am I thinking about

00:45:33   I'm definitely not sitting and going

00:45:34   like what you did great at the King

00:45:36   County Democrats I'm just thinking like

00:45:38   yeah there's nothing worse than standing

00:45:42   than giving a speech that you don't

00:45:44   quite have that you don't quite nail in

00:45:47   front of a roomful of people that are

00:45:48   playing with their salads

00:45:50   yeah and you're just like were why am i

00:45:53   why would I even go to an event like

00:45:55   that but the thing is you never know you

00:45:56   know what walking in the door I don't

00:45:58   know enough about any of these

00:45:59   organizations to know which ones are

00:46:02   going to be getting into taking all of

00:46:03   those let me not to pressure you already

00:46:05   know this but like is to take each one

00:46:07   of those more serious in the last

00:46:10   because you never know it's like it's

00:46:11   almost like when you're starting out

00:46:12   performing and doing gigs like even

00:46:15   though you you have five shows in a row

00:46:16   where it's the bartender and a friend

00:46:19   like you never know this could be the

00:46:20   show where somebody in the audience is a

00:46:22   booker or somebody who writes for the

00:46:23   local paper you've got to be playing to

00:46:25   the last row

00:46:26   regardless of how you feel because you

00:46:28   don't need you don't even know how

00:46:29   important it could be but you have to

00:46:30   treat that seriously right and it's

00:46:32   precisely analogous because when you are

00:46:34   young you really and when I was starting

00:46:37   out in music I really felt like every

00:46:39   show I had to take that seriously

00:46:41   because you never knew which one was

00:46:43   going to have Jonathan parliament

00:46:45   there and then one day I played a show

00:46:48   and Jonathan Paula man was there and he

00:46:53   came up to me after the show and offered

00:46:55   me a recording contract and it felt like

00:46:58   one of those it felt like being

00:47:00   discovered at the at the malt shop and

00:47:04   yet i never did sign that record

00:47:07   contract and I never did that and it was

00:47:10   and I know a lot of people that did sign

00:47:11   a record contract that was offered to

00:47:13   them by Jonathan parliament and most of

00:47:15   those people that didn't you know I

00:47:19   didn't change the fact that they are now

00:47:21   working somewhere else but you know

00:47:25   there are those they're so over time in

00:47:29   rock-and-roll you learned that the idea

00:47:30   that something life-changing is going to

00:47:35   happen at any one particular show is a

00:47:37   fallacy and that really it's all the

00:47:41   shows together all the great shows

00:47:43   because because they're you know it's

00:47:45   it's it's sort of it's sort of a

00:47:50   counterpart to the argument against the

00:47:51   great man theory of history where it's

00:47:54   really not about Napoleon it's about the

00:47:57   forces that are you know the forces that

00:48:01   work to create Napoleon and the human

00:48:03   forces working all the time and Napoleon

00:48:05   is kind of it irrelevant compared to the

00:48:10   passage of time and I don't agree with

00:48:11   that critique of history but in my own

00:48:14   experience like I i was on my way to

00:48:18   south africa in in 1998 to was given the

00:48:26   opportunity to go study at the

00:48:27   University of Cape Town and to do and to

00:48:30   write a book about the truth and

00:48:31   reconciliation committee that i was

00:48:34   studying at the time and I was going to

00:48:36   go with my mentor Jim Klaus and it was

00:48:39   going to be this like profoundly

00:48:42   life-changing academic trip and in the

00:48:48   three or four months leading up to

00:48:51   leaving for cape town

00:48:53   where I would you know I had all my

00:48:55   ducks in a row and Jim had kind of

00:48:57   tasked me with this thing that I was

00:48:59   going to write out that the book i was

00:49:00   gonna try and write was going to be a

00:49:02   book about these American students

00:49:04   trying to understand and perceive the

00:49:08   truth and reconciliation committee and

00:49:10   what it meant and then my band the

00:49:13   Western State hurricanes got invited to

00:49:14   South by Southwest and south you know

00:49:18   going to South by Southwest was up there

00:49:20   was such a big deal back then such a

00:49:22   lofty dreams I was like a height of the

00:49:23   year they were banned remember around

00:49:25   the same time in Tallahassee and they're

00:49:26   like the early and especially the

00:49:28   mid-nineties it was like that was you

00:49:30   talk about the big game like with you

00:49:31   got invited to go to South by Southwest

00:49:33   like that was that was a benediction you

00:49:36   were going to the show Yeah right this

00:49:38   was this was here I mean it was in some

00:49:39   ways almost like look your head Sullivan

00:49:41   Show were like you may not

00:49:43   you know being invited is big enough but

00:49:45   they could be potentially

00:49:46   career-changing yeah and you had to make

00:49:48   that decision

00:49:48   yeah 10 and I went to I went to gym and

00:49:52   I was like I got invited to go to South

00:49:53   by Southwest with my band you know I've

00:49:55   been in bands now for 46 years and and

00:50:01   this band is finally taking off and this

00:50:04   is one of these once-in-a-lifetime

00:50:05   chances and he was like well you know

00:50:07   cape town will always be there I'll

00:50:10   always be there for you you know I make

00:50:13   make the decision you need to make you

00:50:15   can go to Cape Town and come back and

00:50:17   you know do your band or you can go to

00:50:21   your band and then we'll go to keep down

00:50:23   later and i went to my bandmates and I

00:50:26   described the situation and two of the

00:50:31   three bandmates one of my bandmates said

00:50:35   you should go to Cape Town you know

00:50:36   South by Southwest will always be there

00:50:38   will be there for you when you get back

00:50:40   the other two guys said for this is our

00:50:44   one chance i think that process of

00:50:47   contradiction you just need you just

00:50:49   clarify the supporting member right

00:50:51   right

00:50:52   remember this board member was and I

00:50:54   remember that you guys were like this is

00:50:56   our one chance and if you go to Cape

00:50:58   Town we're leaving the band

00:51:00   jet and so you know I agonized over it

00:51:04   and I decided I can you know the

00:51:06   academic path will be there for me i

00:51:09   have to pursue this opportunity you know

00:51:12   you don't you don't get asked to go up

00:51:16   to the majors an infinite number of

00:51:19   times and so much less it's so much less

00:51:21   abstract I mean especially maybe at that

00:51:23   age it's like this is not abstract at

00:51:25   all like the going going to South Africa

00:51:27   not there's anything I mean obviously

00:51:28   that's huge but it's a little bit more

00:51:30   abstract and the idea of your band like

00:51:33   this is the moment I could you pass up

00:51:34   that opportunity for your band is going

00:51:36   to seem bananas to Jimmy throw that away

00:51:38   is how it probably felt yeah right and I

00:51:40   so I went to South by Southwest it was

00:51:43   an in it was interesting it was the

00:51:46   first of nine consecutive south by

00:51:49   southwest side attended and but

00:51:55   immediately upon returning from that

00:51:56   South by Southwest the two guys that

00:51:58   said that that they you know that this

00:52:02   was our big shot both quit the band and

00:52:06   I never did go to South Africa and I

00:52:08   never did you know as you probably know

00:52:12   I did not write a book about the truth

00:52:14   and reconciliation committee and so that

00:52:18   feeling like this was the moment I went

00:52:21   to nine more South by Southwest so i

00:52:23   went to eight more south by southwest

00:52:24   and every one of them felt like it could

00:52:26   be the moment and none of them were and

00:52:28   I think maybe if I were in band of

00:52:30   horses there would have been a show that

00:52:33   you could point to that was like that

00:52:35   was the moment where it all started to

00:52:37   go but the fact is the band of horses if

00:52:40   it hadn't been that show it would have

00:52:41   been the next show because they that up

00:52:44   because ben is a great songwriter and

00:52:46   that they were going to make that sound

00:52:49   it didn't it wasn't that they got

00:52:51   discovered it was that they were good

00:52:52   enough that they made it all the way

00:52:55   and so anyway it feels like that in

00:52:59   running for office to that every one of

00:53:01   these events as you walk into it you

00:53:04   feel like you know oh my god there you

00:53:07   know the former governor could be here

00:53:09   and this could be the moment that it all

00:53:11   turns but the fact is no you just have

00:53:15   to go to all of them and if you're gonna

00:53:17   if you're going to catch on with people

00:53:19   and if they're gonna like you know one

00:53:22   meeting is the moment it's it's the it's

00:53:25   the the composite of having performed

00:53:29   all these tasks and having spoken all

00:53:33   these times that it that either reveals

00:53:37   you to be the the one that people are

00:53:39   looking for or reveals you to not be

00:53:41   that one you just blew a huge hole in in

00:53:45   one of the great myths in a way that I

00:53:47   never thought of quite this clearly uh

00:53:49   you know i-i've always talk about this

00:53:52   here but I get you know you always think

00:53:54   about all the times you're going to

00:53:55   arrive right i know we've talked about

00:53:56   this i call you know something i will

00:53:58   arrive and you'll know that you've

00:53:59   arrived and of course anybody who ever

00:54:00   has arrived starts to really realize

00:54:03   that you never really arrived as you

00:54:04   famously said one of our first

00:54:05   interviews even Bono has a boss but

00:54:07   there's always somebody above your

00:54:09   station that you're trying to if not

00:54:11   impressed at least please

00:54:12   but like that the it's almost like the

00:54:14   opposite of arriving it's like there are

00:54:16   if you grow up feeling like there's a

00:54:18   handful of chances that you might get to

00:54:21   really make something happen in a way

00:54:23   that is you know I think the subtext is

00:54:25   that is something that won't undo like

00:54:27   when i get this break then it's just

00:54:29   going to be a rocket to the top but the

00:54:31   truth is that like this chances may come

00:54:34   along but alongside each of those

00:54:35   chances are like 10,000 opportunities

00:54:38   for everything to unravel and like you

00:54:40   you those are the ones on something it's

00:54:43   also depressing but I think it's kind of

00:54:44   true like you really facing the 10,000

00:54:46   times every time you walk out there

00:54:48   you're facing the beginning of an

00:54:49   unraveling in some ways that's not the

00:54:51   reality of it and it's like you know the

00:54:53   arrival doesn't stick

00:54:54   well right and it is and it just leads

00:54:57   to more expectations so many there are

00:54:59   so many so many events on the con that

00:55:01   the in the two months I've been actively

00:55:03   campaigning for office so many events

00:55:05   when I walked out of a thing I was like

00:55:07   if the election

00:55:08   held today and it were only and it only

00:55:12   involved the 45 people in that room

00:55:15   perfect I would you know I would win

00:55:18   this office and the 45 people in that

00:55:20   room are you know they they are

00:55:23   important people in the process but the

00:55:27   election isn't today it doesn't involve

00:55:31   just those 45 people and no one can

00:55:34   anoint you you can be appointed to

00:55:39   public office which is a crazy thing but

00:55:43   for the most part if you are you know if

00:55:45   if you want to be like a legitimate

00:55:47   elected person there's no shortcut

00:55:52   because the election is just it's just

00:55:56   one day and you do everything you can up

00:55:59   until that day and then I mean think

00:56:01   about the elections we've watched as

00:56:03   passive viewers or even engaged viewers

00:56:05   where it's like I'm in the last election

00:56:08   between a Romney and Obama did even

00:56:13   though it turned out to be a total sweep

00:56:18   like going into that sharing even in

00:56:20   that week it didn't look like it didn't

00:56:22   look like it didn't feel like it and and

00:56:24   a lot of pundits were calling it the

00:56:26   other way like until until their that

00:56:30   until Obama's name was written in their

00:56:32   blood on the wall and you just go wow

00:56:37   like there's get the it's just never a

00:56:41   thing you can sew up if it's at all

00:56:45   competitive i mean there are races all

00:56:46   the time where that just sewed up from

00:56:48   the beginning there's never a challenge

00:56:50   but for me in this race

00:56:52   there's nothing guaranteed about it and

00:56:54   people say all the time to me on the you

00:56:57   know when I'm out in the world they're

00:56:58   like well you've raised a lot of money

00:56:59   you know it's all good see it's a sure

00:57:01   thing that you're getting through the

00:57:02   primary and it's like I don't think it's

00:57:04   a sure thing right hand and the damn the

00:57:06   danger of it is that that feeling in

00:57:10   other people where they say oh you've

00:57:11   raised a lot of money

00:57:12   it's it's also a way for them to say

00:57:15   like well you don't you know I support

00:57:16   you but you don't need my active help

00:57:18   because it seems like things are going

00:57:20   great for you and it's like from where I

00:57:23   stand that is not how it feels and that

00:57:27   you know that's a very that's that

00:57:30   contributes to this feeling of

00:57:31   loneliness because a lot of my a lot of

00:57:33   my people a lot of my natural supporters

00:57:35   they think things are going great when i

00:57:37   run into him on the street they're like

00:57:39   it sounds amazing i saw your name in the

00:57:40   newspaper things you see things are

00:57:42   going amazing and I just feel like up

00:57:47   completely abandoned in some ways

00:57:49   because people like all things are going

00:57:52   good i can go back and do i go back to

00:57:53   my life and it's almost like and he kind

00:57:57   of got at this one swing a few upsets go

00:57:59   when you're talking about going in and

00:58:00   and visiting with the district Democrats

00:58:03   and like you're you and all kind of

00:58:05   start to commiserate with other

00:58:06   candidates it's almost like those are

00:58:08   the only people that you can really

00:58:10   really talk to about this would be your

00:58:12   competitors they are they always like

00:58:14   getting divorced and having it be the

00:58:15   loneliest year of your life and the only

00:58:18   person you can hope could even

00:58:19   understand what you're going through is

00:58:20   the person to force me back right well

00:58:23   and and so and and so in that there is a

00:58:28   lot of fellow feeling between people

00:58:31   running for office but I but it really

00:58:37   it's it couldn't be more exaggerated how

00:58:39   little I resemble them in in some ways

00:58:44   really still um let me know if you feel

00:58:48   that way

00:58:48   yeah because because they all I mean if

00:58:53   you go i did this the other day I went

00:58:55   and and went to the wikipedia page for

00:58:58   the washington state legislature and I

00:59:01   just started reading reading the

00:59:02   biographies of all the all the current

00:59:07   people in the legislature just getting

00:59:09   us a picture of them and I mean this

00:59:16   stock biography is graduated with a

00:59:19   degree in public in political science

00:59:22   went immediately to work at a non-profit

00:59:27   became the director of that nonprofit

00:59:30   it then became the executive director of

00:59:32   a different nonprofit then worked for a

00:59:34   while as a as a on the campaign of a

00:59:37   candidate who either one office at which

00:59:40   point they became their that candidates

00:59:42   legislative aide or that candidate lost

00:59:45   and they went back to the world

00:59:47   nonprofits and then you know and then

00:59:50   they did and at no point does it ever

00:59:53   feel cynical right everyone of those

00:59:55   jobs and that pursuit of a career path

00:59:59   like

00:59:59   like

01:00:00   all those jobs are are fantastic and

01:00:02   people are doing them i think genuinely

01:00:04   like motivated by a desire to to help

01:00:09   and those nonprofits are across a wide

01:00:11   spectrum like helping the homeless

01:00:12   houses for Humanity medical care you

01:00:19   know across the spectrum of like

01:00:20   concerned concerned citizen

01:00:24   uh-huh and then at a certain point from

01:00:28   there from their position at one of

01:00:31   these places then they first run for

01:00:35   office at which point it becomes clear

01:00:37   that it's been a path it's a it's a

01:00:40   career path they've been working toward

01:00:42   that like the doing the work of getting

01:00:45   to that point free for years

01:00:46   yeah and i cannot know I don't know

01:00:48   enough of them really really personally

01:00:51   to know how many of them at 18 years old

01:00:53   said one day I'm going to be a

01:00:57   representative and the path to that is

01:01:01   this is this you know i mean if you do

01:01:05   give you graduate with a degree in

01:01:07   political science

01:01:08   you are you have some awareness of what

01:01:12   you're doing right and so you know at

01:01:15   graduate with a degree in political

01:01:16   science and immediately join the

01:01:20   nonprofit world like you you're

01:01:22   conscious of of those steps but i can't

01:01:25   know how much each one of these people

01:01:29   individually is pursuing this over the

01:01:31   course of time and this is how you get

01:01:33   there but in meeting them on the

01:01:36   campaign trail you know I don't feel

01:01:39   well today let's just say that they that

01:01:45   this group of people is not

01:01:46   characterized by their right bald sense

01:01:48   of humor nor by their worldliness really

01:01:52   they're you know they're capable of

01:01:55   talking about all of the all of what are

01:02:00   agreed are the challenges facing our

01:02:03   city today but they're not capable of

01:02:07   talking about it outside of of what the

01:02:10   agreed-upon corral of

01:02:12   of issues is or corral of notions I had

01:02:16   a sitting city councilman who it is a

01:02:19   likable person say to me the other day

01:02:20   he was like you know the thing about you

01:02:23   is he said I you know I hope this is an

01:02:27   unsolicited advice and I was like are

01:02:28   you kidding me

01:02:29   consider it to listen if I'm soliciting

01:02:32   at what he's like thing is nobody knows

01:02:34   what you're gonna do like this opponent

01:02:39   of yours like I may disagree with him

01:02:42   but I know when he gets the job I know

01:02:44   what he's gonna do this guy I know what

01:02:49   he's going to do this low a woman I know

01:02:51   what she's going to do and nobody knows

01:02:54   what you're gonna do so how can we how

01:02:59   can we choose you and I said uh I mean

01:03:05   that my sense is that ninety-five

01:03:09   percent of the things that come across a

01:03:11   city council person's desk were

01:03:13   completely unforeseen that five percent

01:03:17   of the things you know are going to

01:03:18   happen but there's a police scandal or

01:03:21   suddenly shale oil brings a drilling rig

01:03:26   into the harbor or there's a an economic

01:03:30   crisis or a snowstorm or you know

01:03:32   they're like so much of the job is

01:03:36   reacting to things that nobody

01:03:37   anticipated i would imagine that he that

01:03:43   nobody knows what anybody's going to do

01:03:45   and he said yeah that's right but the

01:03:48   only way we know how to choose is if you

01:03:53   have demonstrated like consistency in

01:03:58   what you are going to do and then from

01:04:01   that we extrapolate what you're what

01:04:04   what you would do in a in unforeseen

01:04:06   circumstances and I'm like that is a

01:04:08   really I see I see what you're saying

01:04:11   but it's all it seems like a really bad

01:04:13   bad because it because what it because

01:04:17   what it doesn't do is account for a

01:04:20   person's flexibility

01:04:24   or morality or curiosity all it all of

01:04:32   voting record is is a measurable set of

01:04:38   data that you can you know you can put

01:04:41   up against your voting record and see

01:04:44   what the differences are and know and be

01:04:46   able to put a like a points rating on is

01:04:48   this guy more liberal than me less

01:04:50   liberal than me is he well and again

01:04:52   given that it covers things that

01:04:54   happened in the past it's not even that

01:04:55   useful for what somebody's going to do

01:04:57   next

01:04:58   it's more useful for saying like I think

01:05:00   it's it's more useful as a negative than

01:05:01   as a positive in the voting record right

01:05:03   and because you can because you can say

01:05:04   well I I don't like the way this person

01:05:06   voted on all these things because even

01:05:08   if you do like the way this person voted

01:05:10   on most of these things is no indication

01:05:11   of what they're gonna do next

01:05:13   yeah and and i understand that that

01:05:16   picking some picking somebody for public

01:05:18   office based on you know I think I think

01:05:23   about ross perot and when ross perot

01:05:26   first entered that race in 88 he was a

01:05:32   guy that a lot of us naturally would

01:05:34   have would have not had anything to do

01:05:39   with because he was a Texas oil guy and

01:05:42   outspoken you know it seems like he had

01:05:44   a pearl-handled revolvers and was a was

01:05:47   a you know a real rogue so funny at

01:05:53   first how much he appealed to people for

01:05:56   being down to earth and just so

01:05:58   obviously sensible young remember that

01:06:01   because on the one hand go well this is

01:06:03   a guy who's like made I mean you know it

01:06:05   is at that time there so that emerging

01:06:07   idea of like this is obviously somebody

01:06:08   we can trust because this guy built a

01:06:10   business but also he's such a straight

01:06:12   shooter at the beginning at the

01:06:13   beginning it was before he was zone like

01:06:15   90 ball salad like everybody thought

01:06:18   this is this guy is the straightest

01:06:19   shooters you know we stand with ross

01:06:20   perot yeah and and for myself as a as a

01:06:24   radical at the time

01:06:26   ross perot appealed to me because it

01:06:29   felt like the other candidates in the

01:06:32   race were just same old same old who and

01:06:34   here's this guy who's gonna

01:06:36   for better or for worse be a real human

01:06:40   being and then it turned out that ross

01:06:43   perot was you know he was not able to

01:06:49   maintain that and he'll he lost us all

01:06:55   right i mean i really felt like he could

01:06:56   have won that presidency if he had just

01:06:59   stayed the course but he he lost all of

01:07:03   he lost all of his with whatever people

01:07:05   like me that's supported in one of those

01:07:07   like the more that he talked by the end

01:07:09   more than he talked the more you could

01:07:11   say yeah well that k is a straight

01:07:12   shooter but he's a straight shooter

01:07:13   about a lot of wackadoodle because he

01:07:15   started he started he would speak so

01:07:16   freely in a way that was very very

01:07:21   attractive at first but by the end he

01:07:25   just sounded like he didn't have any

01:07:26   filter was maybe maybe you know need

01:07:28   some kind of medication

01:07:29   yeah do you remember I mean don't I

01:07:31   remember that maybe I'm remembering

01:07:33   remembering started live bits but I just

01:07:35   I feel like you know he started out

01:07:36   seeming likes like this like so many

01:07:38   political outsider candidates they

01:07:40   started out really seeming like the

01:07:42   answer because they're not talking like

01:07:43   everybody else but then by the end the

01:07:45   fact they're not talking like everybody

01:07:46   else in the long run really makes them

01:07:48   stick out

01:07:49   yeah and that is that is what i am

01:07:50   trying to you know what I'm facing

01:07:55   personally is like I'm the outsider

01:07:58   candidate and the question is can a

01:08:04   cabinet i as an outsider candidate it

01:08:09   make a convincing portrayal of an

01:08:13   insider candidate and not lose and not

01:08:16   in the process lose the lose something

01:08:21   crucial about myself right and not not

01:08:25   just lose the perception of it but

01:08:27   actually lose something in the process

01:08:32   you know not something a replicable

01:08:34   because i don't think i don't think that

01:08:37   that that my integrity is something that

01:08:40   is you know is so well I don't think

01:08:44   it's a it's a it's malleable in that way

01:08:48   but you know I

01:08:50   when I entered this I this race I said

01:08:52   listen I'm not going to run negative i

01:08:55   just want to run on us on the strength

01:08:56   of ideas and I've described before that

01:09:00   I was under a lot of pressure from

01:09:01   people in my campaign

01:09:04   who knew better to you know to attack my

01:09:08   opponent and I had a lot of anxiety

01:09:12   about it and I ultimately said no I'm

01:09:15   not going to i just want to run on ideas

01:09:17   and they all kind of shrugged and said

01:09:21   okay well let's just run ideas then but

01:09:25   attacking was what they knew how to do

01:09:29   and what they wanted to do and so when I

01:09:32   said I just going to run on ideas they

01:09:34   were like great well then you're the guy

01:09:35   with the ideas so let's have them and I

01:09:44   was also going to six events a day

01:09:46   yeah and so at the end of the day there

01:09:51   was you know an expectation that the at

01:09:54   that after giving you know six different

01:09:57   speeches that I was going to go home and

01:09:58   write two thousand words on this like

01:10:03   world of ideas that i was promoting and

01:10:07   when I wasn't able to do it when I

01:10:10   wasn't able two mustards just just the

01:10:12   the pure energy needed to the spitball

01:10:18   there was a got there was a like a

01:10:25   deficit a a lack of just voice coming

01:10:30   out right there

01:10:31   the people were started to say well here

01:10:34   you guys haven't released any position

01:10:35   papers you haven't taken a stand on

01:10:37   anything and my team I don't you know I

01:10:44   don't think that they were punishing me

01:10:46   but they didn't know what to do i mean

01:10:48   they they would say they knew what to do

01:10:50   they would write up a thing and say my

01:10:52   opponent is a is a baby killer and of

01:10:55   you know they wanted to swift boat every

01:10:59   day and that was what they that was what

01:11:02   they understood and that's what ever

01:11:03   everyone is doing and it's it's so up

01:11:05   people you know people say they don't

01:11:07   like negative campaigning but but what

01:11:09   negative campaigning does it strikes me

01:11:11   as somebody who doesn't like it but sees

01:11:13   it is that it gives you the constant

01:11:15   opportunity to reframe the debate haha

01:11:18   in a way that being positive doesn't

01:11:20   because it makes you seem extremely

01:11:21   realistic makes you seem like you're

01:11:23   speaking the truth to power and and it

01:11:25   gives you constantly gives you the

01:11:26   opportunity to show why this other

01:11:28   person is a bad person and we will have

01:11:30   to say anything at all and so it starts

01:11:32   to rain after 20 days of no rain and the

01:11:36   instinct of everybody is just is to say

01:11:39   you know let's get a press release out i

01:11:41   support the rain and more importantly my

01:11:44   opponent is on-the-record three

01:11:46   different times as saying that he wished

01:11:48   it would stop raining my opponent has

01:11:50   had very little to say about the rain

01:11:51   this week in 1997 my opponent said that

01:11:54   he was sick of the rain

01:11:56   well now in the middle of this drought

01:11:59   who do you want a guy that's sick of

01:12:01   rain even we don't have it for a guy

01:12:03   that loves the Red John Roderick we just

01:12:05   can't afford your reign thinking and so

01:12:08   so what happened in the last couple

01:12:11   weeks is a couple of different times i

01:12:15   was sitting on it you know sitting in a

01:12:17   chair with a laptop in my lap trying

01:12:19   frantically to just stay on top of

01:12:23   emails or whatever and somebody came

01:12:25   over and said here's an opportunity to

01:12:31   set out a press release and one case you

01:12:36   know one of my opponents and the other

01:12:39   opponent were debating housing in the

01:12:42   newspaper and I was left out of the

01:12:44   conversation and everybody was in a

01:12:46   panic that the race is shaping up to be

01:12:48   between these two other guys you're not

01:12:50   even in the conversation and I was like

01:12:52   I'm not in the conversation I'm over

01:12:53   here working on something else they're

01:12:55   like you can't afford to not be in the

01:12:56   conversation and so you know a couple of

01:13:02   different times their press releases

01:13:04   have gone out from my campaign in a tone

01:13:08   that that I didn't like

01:13:14   that you know that in the in the the

01:13:17   context of the political world was mild

01:13:20   stuff but but you know just addressed to

01:13:24   some imaginary reader whose like where

01:13:29   these two guys stand well i just

01:13:32   received a press release

01:13:33   apparently you know this guy doesn't

01:13:37   like the ring and you know and it and it

01:13:42   left me feeling like a like a film like

01:13:45   there was a film on my tongue you know

01:13:47   just kind of like yeah yeah yeah but in

01:13:50   the you know but in the absence of me

01:13:52   generating like candy cane lollipop a

01:13:56   position papers week after week that was

01:14:00   what that was what came out and now I'm

01:14:02   trying to I'm trying to draw a line in

01:14:05   the sand about it and say like no run on

01:14:09   the strength of ideas or nothing and I I

01:14:15   need a shot of vitamin b12 or something

01:14:17   you know right i need a hug it i wish i

01:14:21   could give you a hug but you know it

01:14:23   makes me think a little bit i know this

01:14:24   is kind of far out but you know there's

01:14:26   that I think there's a good reason why

01:14:28   most product lines will very explicitly

01:14:32   provide three levels of service you know

01:14:35   in the classic almost like the three

01:14:37   ways you can medal in the Olympics but

01:14:39   like there's something I mean people

01:14:41   names people talk about this but like I

01:14:42   think there's a reason that still exists

01:14:45   is it clearly frames like how this how

01:14:48   this product works and what it can mean

01:14:49   to you and how it can be right for you

01:14:51   regardless of your needs or budget right

01:14:54   if you had 16 options it would be really

01:14:56   overwhelming it was one option it would

01:14:58   seem inflexible but like that has become

01:15:00   such a I know it's not the same as with

01:15:02   candidates but I'm just saying that's

01:15:03   the kind of thing where that becomes a

01:15:05   talk about a thought technology like

01:15:06   that is an entire way of framing your

01:15:08   the way that your product line works you

01:15:10   know are you know which kind of which

01:15:12   level of GM car are you going to get and

01:15:14   when you get that GM car what kind of

01:15:15   upholstery and it's all these different

01:15:17   ways to like see yourself and your needs

01:15:20   are reflected in the product offering

01:15:22   and it's it's like when you're when you

01:15:24   talk about a political race

01:15:26   the thing is there

01:15:27   it's really difficult to look at any one

01:15:29   candidate on their own because it is

01:15:33   much more complicated it's so much more

01:15:34   comments so much easier for somebody

01:15:36   who's gonna write an article on that to

01:15:37   be able to say well here's the person

01:15:39   with the super clear position that

01:15:40   everybody agrees with like yay look he

01:15:42   really you have to put people next to

01:15:44   each other in order for it to be

01:15:46   campaign in some ways but you have to I

01:15:49   mean I'm not saying you have to but it

01:15:51   sounds like I could see the attraction

01:15:52   of doing that because it gives you a lot

01:15:54   more clarity you know but then you

01:15:56   become incremental closer to being a pro

01:15:58   wrestler the more you do that

01:16:00   yeah and that that is the you know

01:16:02   that's when I I hesitate to say that

01:16:06   that's the challenge because there are

01:16:07   so many challenges if only there were

01:16:11   one right as if only I could just

01:16:13   imagine master one and and honestly like

01:16:15   I'm e at the end of every week I looked

01:16:25   back and I say boy if I had known at the

01:16:26   beginning of this week what I know now I

01:16:29   would have done a lot better job this

01:16:30   week and that's that's very unusual

01:16:32   right in in the course of my normal life

01:16:35   if I ever applied that idea it was

01:16:40   always like if I'd know if I knew two

01:16:42   years ago what I know now I would have

01:16:44   done a better job over the last two

01:16:46   years but it's very seldom in life that

01:16:49   you get into a situation where a you

01:16:51   know every day you get home and you go

01:16:54   well I wish I knew at the beginning of

01:16:56   today what I know now and then you go

01:16:59   into the next day and it's like well

01:17:01   what I learned yesterday didn't really

01:17:02   apply today I learned a whole bunch of

01:17:04   new stuff that I didn't know and I i

01:17:08   wonder if that isn't always that that

01:17:12   isn't going to be true of this whole

01:17:15   race and that on the election day I'm

01:17:17   going to say if you know if I like now

01:17:21   I'm ready to run for office and I and

01:17:24   other people have said that to me that

01:17:27   because as part of a way of saying like

01:17:31   there's no bad way to run for office if

01:17:32   you if this is what you want to do

01:17:34   because you run you you run you in that

01:17:37   you want you running you lose and you

01:17:39   know how to run

01:17:40   none of it really is any and none of it

01:17:48   really points to teaching you how to

01:17:50   govern and so it sounds like a horrible

01:17:54   me you know what is all this horrible

01:17:56   preparation for how to govern its first

01:17:58   of all the habits so not all the habits

01:18:01   the habit of need to show up on time and

01:18:03   think fast and know how to attract their

01:18:05   and hire the right people is a skill

01:18:06   that everybody could use forever but

01:18:08   like so much of this man down in the

01:18:11   trenches stuff it's it feels no no fast

01:18:14   to your occupation but it's something

01:18:16   you could become so small and venal like

01:18:19   with if you if you really made that part

01:18:21   of your life it must also be a personal

01:18:23   struggle to like not turn into something

01:18:24   that you don't want to be and how it

01:18:27   happens and I and I see it you know we

01:18:32   from the outside we look at the process

01:18:34   and we see these political characters

01:18:37   and we and there they appear to be

01:18:39   dripping with corruption because because

01:18:44   their behavior is so is often so

01:18:47   transparently in the service of of

01:18:52   pretty narrow group of a narrow group of

01:18:56   people or a narrow group of expectations

01:18:58   and that could you know that corruption

01:19:00   just feels like it's so clear to most of

01:19:02   us like ah just here either corrupt

01:19:05   before you run for office or running for

01:19:07   office makes you corrupt and from inside

01:19:11   I see now that what it is is that if you

01:19:16   come from this background you you know a

01:19:21   limited number of people and yet you

01:19:24   know a limited number of people who who

01:19:27   feel very much like they have their

01:19:29   finger on the on the pulse of what's

01:19:32   wrong right if you are if you spent 20

01:19:34   years as a you know a working in food

01:19:38   bank and become the executive director

01:19:42   of it like you ever a a real sense and

01:19:46   not a wrong sense that you are clued in

01:19:48   to what's going on in cities because

01:19:51   you're dealing with

01:19:53   the people who are feeling the brunt of

01:19:55   it but really you have you don't know

01:19:57   that many people and you really don't

01:19:59   have a very broad picture of the world

01:20:01   and then you get into office and you see

01:20:04   the same faces over and over and because

01:20:07   raising money is such a big part of it

01:20:09   you end up going to the two fundraisers

01:20:11   with the same people and you end up on

01:20:14   the phone with the same people and if

01:20:17   you don't have a broad picture of the

01:20:19   city

01:20:20   it's very easy to feel like or you know

01:20:23   or the country right it's very easy to

01:20:25   feel like that small group of people

01:20:26   which doesn't seem small it seems really

01:20:29   big 5 600 people that you interact with

01:20:32   but that they represent the people when

01:20:37   you know it's so well so inside and out

01:20:39   that you know within that given like

01:20:42   you're an expert like you know more

01:20:44   about a handful of topics then easily

01:20:48   ninety percent of the population which

01:20:51   is going to serve you well sometimes and

01:20:53   really drive you crazy other times

01:20:54   well-known the things you don't know

01:20:56   with it let alone the things with

01:20:57   somebody else's ninety percent within

01:21:00   you but that's the thing of those 500

01:21:01   people that you that you know every

01:21:04   single one of them considers themselves

01:21:06   an expert in something so you're

01:21:08   standing at that you're standing in the

01:21:10   in the the banquet hall at the sheraton

01:21:14   and a guy comes up from the policemen's

01:21:17   Benevolent Association and a guy comes

01:21:19   up from the builders a group of builders

01:21:22   lobbying group at the bilderberg group

01:21:24   then the guy from the bilderberg group

01:21:26   comes and then there's the you know then

01:21:29   there's the nonprofit you know that the

01:21:31   the woman that chairs the Sierra Club

01:21:33   and then there's the and and so every

01:21:36   one of those people represent themselves

01:21:40   as representing thousands of

01:21:43   constituents and that's when it gets

01:21:46   confusing because you do feel like you

01:21:49   know everything you're there with the

01:21:53   500 people that know everything and

01:21:57   that's when that corruption what appears

01:22:00   to the rest of us to be corruption

01:22:01   happen

01:22:03   that's because it isn't corruption it's

01:22:06   just that you are doing what your

01:22:07   friends want you to your e you have

01:22:10   these friends and they are asking you to

01:22:12   do things and you can and you you never

01:22:16   hear from the other side you're not even

01:22:18   aware it exists and so you're just

01:22:21   helping your friends it doesn't feel

01:22:23   corrupt to you especially when I think

01:22:28   this is this is so true and so painful

01:22:29   and so on one so many places like

01:22:31   there's this how you felt at one time

01:22:33   and then this how you increasingly or

01:22:36   how you evolve in your thinking as you

01:22:37   more and more realize how it really

01:22:39   works is another way to think of it

01:22:41   where you know when you're a little kid

01:22:43   you picked baseball teams politicians by

01:22:45   their looks right you like I like this

01:22:46   uniform are like the way this person

01:22:48   talks but you know you Cee I think the

01:22:50   part of the the dawning series of

01:22:52   realizations is oh no I see how this

01:22:54   really works

01:22:55   you really mean to get this internship

01:22:57   it really would have helped for me to

01:22:59   have done these other things but also

01:23:00   really knowing the right people would

01:23:02   have made all the difference and and

01:23:04   that feels like corruption if you're on

01:23:06   the outside it's just that how stuff

01:23:08   really works can be so impossibly

01:23:10   complicated unless you're already a

01:23:12   domain expert and if you're already a

01:23:14   domain expert then you already know that

01:23:15   it's really complicated and how it

01:23:17   really works up and then you're the next

01:23:19   let me go oh I see this is how this

01:23:21   really works and even saying that phrase

01:23:24   it sounds like i'm talking about

01:23:25   corruption and and I'm and I'm not it's

01:23:27   just that sometimes it is very

01:23:28   complicated with the the when you when

01:23:31   one person who's an outsider on a topic

01:23:32   has an idea in mind about how something

01:23:34   should change they usually see that as

01:23:36   one or two little steps over discreet

01:23:38   amount of time that could make this

01:23:40   thing happen with it when and again now

01:23:42   I'm just going to gas because i'm not in

01:23:43   Congress and i'm guessing if you're in

01:23:45   Congress and even if you really want

01:23:47   something done and think it's important

01:23:48   and and think it's a good thing to do

01:23:50   and how many times is that really rarely

01:23:52   the que era really the case you might

01:23:54   have to realize well I'm gonna have to

01:23:55   like make this seem like this guy the

01:23:57   senior staff members idea then there's

01:24:00   this person over here who I'm gonna have

01:24:01   to like you know groom for six months

01:24:05   about this idea right i mean it's it's

01:24:07   really as simple as going over in New

01:24:08   York

01:24:09   hey I got an idea let's do this thing

01:24:11   for housing all right I'm

01:24:12   in like that's a good idea let's do that

01:24:14   yeah because there's so many different

01:24:16   demands and so many and permit am i

01:24:18   right I mean it seems like that once you

01:24:19   start the dawning realization of how

01:24:22   stuff really works

01:24:23   it's never really ends there's more and

01:24:25   more things to understand about how

01:24:26   things really work well of of course and

01:24:29   that is what's so maddening about the

01:24:31   process that we that we use to choose

01:24:34   people because the last thing it i'm

01:24:37   learning on a daily basis the last thing

01:24:40   anyone wants to hear from a candidate is

01:24:42   you know every single side of every

01:24:47   single argument has some validity to it

01:24:49   and so it isn't ever a question of

01:24:53   finding out the truth it is always a

01:24:57   question of figuring out a plan and a

01:25:01   process and a and a method and and

01:25:05   working toward goals and it and and you

01:25:08   can't just I mean I had a strange

01:25:11   conversation with a with a City Council

01:25:14   candidate the other day where he said

01:25:15   you know he told a story that he had

01:25:18   obviously rehearsed for the stump but he

01:25:20   also really meant it

01:25:22   which was that in his work he had

01:25:24   constantly come again up against these

01:25:26   big money people who were you know who

01:25:30   were always doing things that really

01:25:31   negatively affected the people that he

01:25:35   served as at his nonprofit and so he

01:25:39   went and looked to see who these big

01:25:42   money bad guys gave money to and when he

01:25:47   realized that that these guys were

01:25:49   donating money to city council

01:25:51   candidates that was when he realized he

01:25:53   needed to run for office because he

01:25:55   needed to get in there and root out that

01:25:57   corruption and it's like the most any

01:26:01   City Council candidate can receive from

01:26:04   any donor is 700 bucks so it's not like

01:26:06   it's not like these guys are buying

01:26:09   people with money it's that they are in

01:26:12   relationships with each other because

01:26:14   their big-money developers and the other

01:26:15   guys on the City Council and they you

01:26:17   know they see each other at the ballroom

01:26:18   at the sheraton it's never just as

01:26:22   simple as it as as like

01:26:25   this developers seven hundred dollar

01:26:27   check turned this person that otherwise

01:26:30   had integrity into like a slavish a

01:26:34   column for him you know anybody feels

01:26:39   like conspiracy but it was like a

01:26:41   conspiracy and then you look at General

01:26:43   Wesley Clark who is showing for a for a

01:26:45   fucking grilled cheese truck franchise

01:26:48   and you go like but these guys do you

01:26:51   know like adults and I'm feeling it to

01:26:53   get to a certain point in their life and

01:26:55   they are and they're worried about money

01:26:59   I met Chris Hansen the other day

01:27:02   who's the guy he lives and works in San

01:27:05   Francisco but he's the one that wants to

01:27:07   build a sports arena alka for the Sonics

01:27:12   and by the spy by a basketball team and

01:27:14   bring them back to Seattle

01:27:15   what does he was his background he's a

01:27:17   guy that's our age and he's a

01:27:19   billionaire or a hundred civilians there

01:27:22   who is who got his money through finance

01:27:27   financial work which I'm sure was very

01:27:32   difficult very hard work that produced

01:27:36   hundreds of millions of dollars for this

01:27:38   guy in his forties and you know from

01:27:42   where he stands like he was a kid and he

01:27:43   was a fan of the Sonics and now he wants

01:27:45   to buy a basketball team and bring into

01:27:46   the city and it feels like and there are

01:27:49   tens and tens of thousands of people in

01:27:51   Seattle that really want this to happen

01:27:53   and I met him and he's a super nice guy

01:27:55   and he's worth hundreds of millions of

01:28:01   dollars and there are people that are

01:28:03   you know then he has he's a he's a guy

01:28:06   that walks into the rumen and all of the

01:28:08   normal operators sidle up to him and

01:28:13   shake his hand and you can see that

01:28:15   nobody ever tells him any bad news is

01:28:17   that he's a hedge fund manager hedge

01:28:19   fund manager wow he you can eat can just

01:28:23   tell by the way he talks and the way he

01:28:25   carries himself that he's nobody tells

01:28:28   him anything bad it's just like Paul

01:28:29   Allen or you know like when you get to

01:28:32   be that rich it's not just that you

01:28:33   surround yourself with people that give

01:28:35   you good news

01:28:36   but nobody wants to give you bad news

01:28:38   like because there's always the

01:28:43   possibility that the on your way to the

01:28:46   bathroom you're going to drop a hundred

01:28:48   thousand dollars or something you know

01:28:49   like it's just this feeling that people

01:28:51   have when they're around really rich

01:28:52   people it's like well I don't wanna be

01:28:54   the one to give this guy bad news what

01:28:55   if he decides to suddenly start shooting

01:28:57   money out of a t-shirt cannon

01:28:59   I don't want to be the I don't want to

01:29:02   be the one he hates and so you know he's

01:29:06   just sort of he's walking through life

01:29:08   and I'm standing there feeling a little

01:29:10   bit like a feeling I what I think is a

01:29:15   very common feeling at a certain age

01:29:18   which is like is it it's too late for me

01:29:22   to make a hundred billion dollars in his

01:29:23   hedge fund manager like it's too late to

01:29:26   do that and the integrity that used to

01:29:30   keep me so warm at night you know that

01:29:33   blanket is getting worn a little thin

01:29:36   and yet it's like it's all I have

01:29:40   against the night right

01:29:43   you can't you can't start investing in

01:29:47   or you can't put your get you can't get

01:29:50   on the board of a grilled cheese

01:29:51   franchise at this late hour because you

01:29:58   know in the end a hundred fifty years

01:30:00   from now somebody listening to your

01:30:03   podcast in the in the basement of the

01:30:05   library listening to it on microfiche is

01:30:08   going to know how the story turned out

01:30:10   and you know they're going to know

01:30:13   whether or not you whether or not you

01:30:18   sold out right and that's i haven't used

01:30:22   the phrase sold out in a fucking decade

01:30:26   but what do you learn from somebody like

01:30:28   that guy he was one like it seems like

01:30:32   you're exposed to so many interesting

01:30:34   and different kinds of people there

01:30:36   outside of you know like when you would

01:30:39   show for meetings and stuff you know it

01:30:41   because your civic interest you're one

01:30:43   kind of character with one kind of focus

01:30:45   like what kind of stuff you learn

01:30:46   meeting people that like the chris are

01:30:48   handsome guy or

01:30:49   like other people either their bits that

01:30:51   you must be just learning a lot all the

01:30:52   time from seeing how people operate Emma

01:30:55   isn't kind of on your mind must be on

01:30:57   your mind like how you conduct yourself

01:30:58   how you think I mean iid feel like

01:31:00   you're still evolving in that sense

01:31:02   absolutely it's it's it's deeply on my

01:31:04   mind and this is why I'm standing in

01:31:06   front of the mirror and saying like

01:31:09   these are not these are not things that

01:31:12   you normally have to do like that there

01:31:16   is absolutely no opportunity for

01:31:18   corruption in my world that would you

01:31:23   know what where it would be a word some

01:31:25   kind of Abscam thing where some guy

01:31:27   comes some FBI agent from Mexico

01:31:31   pretends to be an Arab and gives me a

01:31:33   suitcase full of money

01:31:35   the corruption opportunity is this tiny

01:31:41   little incremental corruption that that

01:31:44   if you allow in i think is radioactive

01:31:50   and it's those lips that little

01:31:53   corruption of well I said I wasn't going

01:31:55   to run negative but everybody's telling

01:31:56   me I have to and here's an opportunity

01:31:59   to kick a guy and he ok right

01:32:04   the little corruption of like well I'm

01:32:06   i'm meeting a group of african-american

01:32:09   business owners and so i'm going to

01:32:12   taylor- speech to just be about issues

01:32:18   that i know they care about and not be

01:32:19   about the issues that are really

01:32:22   motivating my campaign not to say that

01:32:24   those are different but just that you

01:32:28   know that that pandering that everybody

01:32:30   expects when I go when I went in to meet

01:32:32   with the Union people like one of them

01:32:35   asked me if I it was a member of the

01:32:38   Union and I actually have a application

01:32:41   for the Musicians Union so you're

01:32:44   meeting them on their turf

01:32:46   it's not like it's not like they're

01:32:47   coming your your meeting at denny's or

01:32:48   something like you're going in like they

01:32:51   must have every expectation that you're

01:32:52   going to say all the right things

01:32:53   yeah and oh but this is the thing six

01:32:55   times a day you meet six different

01:32:57   groups of people every one of them wants

01:32:59   you to tell them what they want to hear

01:33:00   and

01:33:02   if you do a little by little you are

01:33:06   letting corruption in and that

01:33:10   corruption becomes radioactive so when I

01:33:13   met with the Chamber of Commerce perfect

01:33:15   you know the opportunity to go in there

01:33:18   and say listen I will do whatever you

01:33:20   say is that that's a that's a very

01:33:23   powerful um give her the business

01:33:27   friendly vibe

01:33:28   yeah that's a very powerful impulse

01:33:30   right because you want to please people

01:33:32   and their then they want you to try and

01:33:34   please them and their powerful and you

01:33:37   want their help

01:33:38   so to do what I did which is to go in

01:33:40   and say listen you're never going to

01:33:41   endorse me and that's fine but you know

01:33:46   if I'm on city council we're going to

01:33:48   find a way to work together so anyway

01:33:51   peace out and and to you know into 10 to

01:33:58   say truthfully like you guys are one of

01:34:00   the most liberal uh chambers of commerce

01:34:02   in America but still your chamber of

01:34:07   commerce yeah right and and if you know

01:34:11   if if you are on the seattle city

01:34:13   council and you believe that the Chamber

01:34:16   of Commerce is your constituents see

01:34:19   here the your entire constituency that

01:34:21   you're missing you're missing a big part

01:34:23   of what your job is

01:34:25   and it's like it's almost like any group

01:34:26   you meet with keep putting these

01:34:29   Christian terms but it's almost like

01:34:30   yeah you could think of in terms of like

01:34:32   what they consider a big win but I think

01:34:34   about like like how you can tell people

01:34:35   are different

01:34:37   it comes down to like what they consider

01:34:38   good news is one way to look at it right

01:34:41   and for them good news in that case

01:34:43   might be something as simple as well

01:34:44   John roddick is clearly here to play

01:34:46   ball with us we don't even all we need

01:34:48   to know to get started is that disguise

01:34:50   like a minimal to do not just working

01:34:53   with us but to potentially you know I

01:34:55   mean like that that's the right there

01:34:57   you have good news would be somebody who

01:34:58   throws all the right shapes about how

01:35:00   that relationship is going to be in the

01:35:01   future and to to basically give up the

01:35:06   I'd give the idea that like whatever you

01:35:09   guys want is going to probably mostly be

01:35:11   okay what's crazy to me is

01:35:13   that no 1i have met you know and the

01:35:16   thing is I'm not really interacting with

01:35:18   voters you know I'm this whole process

01:35:20   is just going to meetings with these

01:35:22   with labor groups democratic groups

01:35:25   business groups and not a single hole

01:35:27   one of these groups with the exception

01:35:31   of the Sierra Club is really very

01:35:34   interested in someone from outside the

01:35:37   system coming in with some fresh ideas

01:35:39   that is not what anybody cares about and

01:35:46   in a min at eighty-five percent of those

01:35:48   situations including very liberal

01:35:50   progressive groups they do not want to

01:35:55   hear that they want to hear that you're

01:35:57   gonna do what you're gonna do so what

01:36:00   they want reliably like imagine if you

01:36:03   work if imagine if you work in a walmart

01:36:05   and a job enough for an assistant

01:36:06   manager like what you want somebody

01:36:08   who's like fresh blood like no you want

01:36:10   somebody who's been an assistant manager

01:36:12   at successful walmart right you want

01:36:14   somebody's gonna come in and already

01:36:15   knows how the how the business operates

01:36:17   and is already you know I was a

01:36:19   compromise but it's already familiar

01:36:21   with with as we say how it really works

01:36:23   that is the that is absolutely true and

01:36:25   that is what is crazy because the

01:36:28   perception of being on the seattle city

01:36:30   council is effectively that it is

01:36:33   equivalent to being the assistant

01:36:34   manager of Walmart and that it has a

01:36:37   more-or-less the same skill sets and in

01:36:39   going into the race and and it's harder

01:36:43   for me to maintain now but I still do

01:36:45   believe it that that is a terrible way

01:36:47   to elect somebody to public office that

01:36:50   that the job is not at all like being an

01:36:54   assistant manager of Walmart and the

01:36:57   fact that there's so much energy a

01:37:00   devoted at this at the start of a

01:37:02   campaign to win knowing out all the

01:37:05   people who don't understand that that

01:37:07   all these groups do believe that that is

01:37:09   what the job is

01:37:10   you know like that is that is a process

01:37:12   that is you know that creates the

01:37:18   political world that we see that we that

01:37:20   we load right you do not want an

01:37:23   assistant manager in this job

01:37:25   you do want somebody that you don't know

01:37:27   what they're going to do you know and

01:37:30   and the idea that that that what you

01:37:35   want in public office is somebody who is

01:37:37   dependable and consistent is going to

01:37:43   get you

01:37:44   it's you're gonna get there with the

01:37:46   results that we so often see which is

01:37:48   that the laws are made by people with no

01:37:53   imagination who have allegiance to the

01:37:57   people that put them there and but

01:38:01   running against that right right right

01:38:03   requires that you reach out to to the to

01:38:06   the voters and so far and what makes me

01:38:10   feel so lonely

01:38:11   is that the process you don't the

01:38:14   process of running for office is

01:38:15   actually um is actually a process of

01:38:20   courting all these groups of people who

01:38:23   claim to be intermediaries between you

01:38:25   and the voters and if you had $1000000

01:38:28   to run your own campaign you could

01:38:30   sidestep the whole process and just from

01:38:32   take out 50 TV commercials a day and

01:38:35   just say hello voters and you can hire

01:38:37   the Goodyear blimp to us right now only

01:38:40   paper paper the waterfront right but not

01:38:43   having those resources you know you do

01:38:46   count on the King County Democrats and

01:38:48   you do count on the chamber of commerce

01:38:49   to help you reach people and and they

01:38:54   have a they have a vested interest in

01:38:56   saying you know it's saying as I've

01:38:58   heard people say under their breath like

01:39:00   it works seven you know it works have a

01:39:04   dumb candidate with a smart staff that

01:39:08   works

01:39:09   it's been proved over and over dumb

01:39:11   candidate smart staff that's a workable

01:39:13   arrangement smart candidate starts to

01:39:19   get really problematic and the smarter

01:39:22   they are the worse it is for the system

01:39:25   i was on talking the other night was

01:39:28   people on Twitter about Roger Ebert and

01:39:31   the way that Roger Ebert would review

01:39:33   movies and I could never

01:39:35   remember this exact phrase but he said

01:39:37   something really interesting a long time

01:39:38   ago about I feel like he said something

01:39:41   along the lines of that you know in

01:39:44   addressing how its people say to him

01:39:46   like how could you give this really

01:39:48   weird ashlock e horror movie 3 stars

01:39:51   well you give this very serious

01:39:53   historical documentary whatever 3 stars

01:39:55   his publisher movie 3 stars were like

01:39:57   how could even make any sense and he had

01:40:00   a very articulate response to it there

01:40:02   was something something along the lines

01:40:04   of that when he watches a movie one of

01:40:06   the first things he looks at is whether

01:40:08   they achieve their intentions like it

01:40:11   isn't you know the thing is I'm not

01:40:12   going to give this one star just because

01:40:14   it's a it's a schlocky horror movie i'll

01:40:16   give this one start because was an

01:40:17   unsuccessful rocky horror movie so I can

01:40:20   never find that exactly but somebody did

01:40:22   send me this one quote I don't know why

01:40:23   feels remain here it's what is what

01:40:25   we're not Roger ever actually called

01:40:26   Ebert's law he said it's not what the

01:40:28   movie is about but how it is about it

01:40:30   which fills a somehow really germane

01:40:34   here for like you know it isn't just

01:40:36   that you come up with some list of

01:40:39   things you've thought of to say that

01:40:41   people will agree with it's a question

01:40:43   of how how you will govern that it is

01:40:46   different it's fundamentally do that it

01:40:48   sounds like a like a distinction without

01:40:49   a difference but the way that you are

01:40:52   going to conduct yourself in the way you

01:40:54   think about with what new data and my

01:40:57   god we haven't really talked much about

01:40:58   time no matter what your ambitions are

01:41:00   like you're constantly the clock ticking

01:41:02   all the time

01:41:03   yeah for everything you want to do if

01:41:04   you had a limited time you can pull off

01:41:06   all kinds of stuff but even the deals

01:41:08   you can negotiate with people the

01:41:09   contracts that are involved in things

01:41:11   like all those things have dates on them

01:41:12   and you're always dealing with multiples

01:41:14   of them at the same time so regardless

01:41:16   of how good your intentions are and how

01:41:18   long your list of good ideas is it

01:41:20   really comes down to that doesn't come

01:41:21   down to like how you will govern how you

01:41:24   will think differently about this

01:41:25   well I'm this is that this is the rub

01:41:27   right because it turns out that this is

01:41:33   the system and actually it doesn't

01:41:36   matter that I'm running it doesn't

01:41:38   matter if I'm smart and running outside

01:41:40   the system if I cannot master the system

01:41:44   then I have failed

01:41:48   categorically well you know like not not

01:41:51   categorically there is a way to run for

01:41:53   office where you are that the principal

01:41:56   character who hasn't no intention of

01:42:00   getting elected but is running just to

01:42:02   raise awareness or running to just

01:42:05   beyond the change the agenda of what

01:42:08   people talk about yeah right i mean you

01:42:09   can do that but to to run for office

01:42:13   with the intention of winning you have

01:42:17   to figure out a way to a and it isn't

01:42:22   you know like this is the this is the

01:42:24   big question can you figure out a way to

01:42:26   play the game as it is actually played

01:42:28   and also maintain not just the lion's

01:42:33   share of your integrity and that's the

01:42:37   you know that's the challenge and i

01:42:42   think i can I just you know I need more

01:42:45   help

01:42:46   right and I and so so that's my weak

01:42:51   right now right I need to go out into my

01:42:53   week and say to the people who are

01:42:56   helping me I need more help and i don't

01:42:59   i don't i'm not mad at anybody I don't

01:43:01   blame anybody but but i can maintain my

01:43:06   integrity but if I do I i'm not going to

01:43:11   get all these i'm not going to get all

01:43:13   these things done and if I get all these

01:43:16   things done in order to maintain my

01:43:18   integrity i need you know I need a I

01:43:23   need more than a hug right I need like I

01:43:26   need people that believe in me that are

01:43:27   that are cheering well you know not to

01:43:31   make it too real and forgive me for for

01:43:34   popping this but like you know this will

01:43:36   go out today what would you are if

01:43:39   you're there if it still if the listener

01:43:40   they want to give you a hug or more what

01:43:42   would help right now

01:43:43   Oh

01:43:46   you know the thing is like on Twitter

01:43:49   people give me a lot of support and

01:43:51   people are very supportive of my

01:43:54   apologies that was a dumb question

01:43:55   no no it's it's it's good i mean the I

01:43:59   mean honestly I'm struggling I i strive

01:44:01   I I raised a lot of money at first and

01:44:03   everybody said always raising a lot of

01:44:05   money is great and now i'm struggling to

01:44:06   raise money and that looks bad because

01:44:09   it seems like my support has evaporated

01:44:12   and so anybody that wants to can go to

01:44:16   or any American rather than once you can

01:44:18   go to vote Roderick dot-com and donate

01:44:21   money to the campaign if they have some

01:44:23   lying around that that always helps but

01:44:28   also like I need I need research done

01:44:32   and you know help like riding position

01:44:41   papers and I know there are a lot of

01:44:43   researchers and writers out there

01:44:45   I just don't know how to tap them right

01:44:47   in without having a new job of

01:44:49   interviewing people for a job

01:44:51   yeah right and just you know there are

01:44:53   there a lot of people who listen who are

01:44:55   like I would love to write up a

01:44:57   transportation piece on gondolas and

01:44:59   it's like I actually need one of those

01:45:01   but but a like getting it all the gay

01:45:08   understanding what i need written and

01:45:10   how I need it written and how I need to

01:45:13   then actually write it myself is you

01:45:17   know it's a it's a major energy

01:45:19   um you know it would take up all my

01:45:24   energy if I weren't also going to six

01:45:26   meetings that right right right this is

01:45:28   the bottom right now so you know I I

01:45:31   know everybody wants to to be engaged in

01:45:35   it and I want that too and i think the

01:45:37   biggest problem is I don't have a

01:45:39   gatekeeper I do have a campaign manager

01:45:42   who is scheduling me in the six meetings

01:45:44   a day but I don't have a creative Tsar

01:45:47   her somebody who's next to me and who is

01:45:51   actually thinking about the the positive

01:45:55   aspect of the campaign actually not

01:45:57   being up

01:45:58   the brain I mean somebody and not just a

01:46:00   whiteboard but somebody who can be there

01:46:02   too to be that other face in the mirror

01:46:05   in some ways right somebody else you

01:46:06   could talk to about these things help

01:46:07   you remember where that thread got

01:46:09   dropped

01:46:09   how to pick it up and then how to evolve

01:46:11   as this stuff goes along right now

01:46:13   that's not what I campaign manager the

01:46:14   campaign managers more like functional

01:46:17   campaign-related getting elected stuff

01:46:20   exactly got stuff on the calendar get

01:46:21   the phone calls made and yeah what I

01:46:25   need I need three means right I need to

01:46:27   me that's like you just go home and

01:46:28   write every right all your crazy shit

01:46:31   down and edit it and get it so that

01:46:34   sounds reasonable

01:46:36   alright i will be out going to these

01:46:39   meetings and shaking people's hands and

01:46:40   kissing babies and then the third me

01:46:42   will be eating a sandwich in the bathtub

01:46:45   and getting all the time he needs you

01:46:49   know walking around the garden in a

01:46:50   bathrobe swinging a seminar and if the

01:46:54   three of those three guys could you know

01:46:57   I could to partner up with three wise

01:47:01   men the three three wise men right

01:47:03   because you know they're like definitely

01:47:06   standards in my neighborhood have

01:47:08   declined although I have to say did I

01:47:09   tell you that Gary I went out and yelled

01:47:11   at Gary did anyone bring it up because I

01:47:13   know that that's not really i would love

01:47:15   an update it sounds like you you have a

01:47:16   come-to-jesus meeting with it so it was

01:47:19   a warm night Gary standing outside of

01:47:21   his way and it wasn't all the van is

01:47:24   still there and still there Gary

01:47:25   standing outside of his band two o'clock

01:47:27   in the morning

01:47:28   yelling into his phone about how the

01:47:31   country is an obamanation abomination

01:47:35   that's pretty clever i was that I didn't

01:47:40   know he had no I'm I didn't know he had

01:47:41   it in him

01:47:41   I'm not sure I heard that before it's

01:47:43   pretty good and about the fourth or

01:47:47   fifth time he says it loud I'm like I'm

01:47:52   in bed and I'm like all right I've just

01:47:55   I've had it and I got up and I put on my

01:47:57   bathrobe and I storm across the street

01:47:59   and he's standing there in the dark

01:48:01   behind the final oral hedge yelling into

01:48:05   his phone and I said god damn it Gary

01:48:07   and he shocked and turns and I said

01:48:11   I am sick of it I'm city you i'm sixty

01:48:16   you over here yelling in your phone i'm

01:48:18   sixty you living in the front yard of my

01:48:19   neighbor's house

01:48:20   I'm sicky you drunk son of a bitch I got

01:48:23   a little kid over here and you're out

01:48:26   here yelling about obamanation I am done

01:48:29   I am done with you Gary and Gary goes

01:48:32   blue and I said Gary you don't even know

01:48:36   my name do you

01:48:37   you do not even know my name and he said

01:48:39   Jeff and I proceeded to read him the

01:48:46   riot act for 20 minutes he picked me

01:48:50   picked the wrong I just had I just I was

01:48:55   done I I don't know why he did he pick

01:48:58   the right this was just that this was

01:48:59   the wrong week to quit sniffing glue and

01:49:02   ice

01:49:03   I dressed him up and down I said Carrie

01:49:05   you have met me 40 times and the reason

01:49:07   you don't remember my name is that your

01:49:08   goddamn alcoholic and if you don't

01:49:11   figure out a way to quit drinking and

01:49:14   get your shit together you can spend the

01:49:16   rest of your life living in this van and

01:49:18   that is no way for a man to live

01:49:21   I said what what was your birthday kara

01:49:24   and he was like oh 1968 and i was like i

01:49:28   was born in 1968 you and me Gary where

01:49:30   the same fucking age and I used to be a

01:49:34   dumb alcoholic living in a van it wasn't

01:49:36   even my van and I don't even want to

01:49:37   know if this is your van you need to get

01:49:41   and he was like I tried to quit drinking

01:49:42   a thousand times and I was like you know

01:49:44   what thousand-and-one tried a thousand

01:49:47   and one x Gary because two o'clock in

01:49:49   the morning out here living in this man

01:49:51   how long have you been living in this

01:49:52   pan how long have you been living in the

01:49:54   front yard of my neighbor's house and I

01:49:56   did I never let him get a word in

01:49:58   I just fucking unloaded and at the end i

01:50:04   was holding him and petting his hair

01:50:09   whoa and saying Gary you can do it you

01:50:12   can change your life you can get you can

01:50:16   get through this and get on get on down

01:50:19   the road you can get your kids back

01:50:21   you just have to

01:50:22   can take the first step and he's

01:50:26   blubbering and I said but in the

01:50:30   meantime Gary fucking stop yelling about

01:50:32   obama in the middle of a goddamn night

01:50:35   across the street from my house if

01:50:37   you're going to live in your band live

01:50:38   in your fucking van with the door closed

01:50:40   quietly so it's on a few days later so

01:50:48   six days later he come

01:50:51   I park the car get out of the car and

01:50:54   he's standing there with his hat

01:50:56   actually in his hands and he walks

01:50:59   across the street he goes hey John I'm

01:51:02   like hi Gary because i remember your

01:51:04   name i was like i'm glad he said I

01:51:07   reason I called you Jeff was because my

01:51:08   best friend's name is Jeff I was like

01:51:11   I'm not interested Gary and he said

01:51:13   listen ever since our talk three days

01:51:16   ago I haven't had a single drink and I

01:51:20   said I was six days ago carrie he's like

01:51:22   I have six yes six days ago anyway i

01:51:27   mean when i drink i'm an asshole I was

01:51:30   like yes scary you are an asshole when

01:51:32   you drink but like me you are also an

01:51:35   asshole when you don't drink