Roderick on the Line

Ep. 139: "Building a Lung"


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00:00:16   [Music] [TS]

00:00:20   hello hi John hi Merlin how's it going [TS]

00:00:24   good [TS]

00:00:26   yep are my packets he your packets are [TS]

00:00:30   our handsome so far [TS]

00:00:32   good good i like to have my packets [TS]

00:00:34   arrive 100-percent packed with no loss [TS]

00:00:39   no loss of any kind of the content [TS]

00:00:43   yeah way back in 2014 [TS]

00:00:47   that was one of my resolutions means [TS]

00:00:49   really I would keep my package tight [TS]

00:00:50   it's so hard because i don't know uh you [TS]

00:00:54   know it's like it's like they say don't [TS]

00:00:56   let somebody else pack your parachute [TS]

00:00:58   that's what they say now but I feel like [TS]

00:01:00   every time I go on the internet somebody [TS]

00:01:02   else's back in my parish I hear that [TS]

00:01:05   sister you know i'm saying i know and [TS]

00:01:07   you know and I don't like it [TS]

00:01:09   whatever people say things like that [TS]

00:01:10   though i can't help but have this lot [TS]

00:01:12   going through my mind which is what if [TS]

00:01:14   they're way better at packing it in your [TS]

00:01:15   oh good point [TS]

00:01:19   not you your parachute not all [TS]

00:01:21   parachutes if you had a professional [TS]

00:01:23   parachute Packer uh-huh and then you [TS]

00:01:25   yourself was just some kind of like one [TS]

00:01:28   time Charlie which one would you want to [TS]

00:01:32   have pack your parachute that's a great [TS]

00:01:34   point I think maybe is it's definitely [TS]

00:01:36   less catchy but maybe what we should say [TS]

00:01:38   is don't let one time Charlie pack a [TS]

00:01:39   parachute that's right well and you know [TS]

00:01:42   what I'd have jumped out of an airplane [TS]

00:01:44   you're kidding and let me tell you who [TS]

00:01:46   packed my parachute a professional [TS]

00:01:48   parachute Packer not me [TS]

00:01:51   yeah because a they didn't even offer me [TS]

00:01:54   the option let me go and just take care [TS]

00:01:57   of that for you know what we would do [TS]

00:01:59   this a long time yeah yeah and and I was [TS]

00:02:03   glad for it opened just fine so you did [TS]

00:02:06   skydiving one time when I was a what 22 [TS]

00:02:12   years old I was going to the University [TS]

00:02:14   and there was a and I was trying to [TS]

00:02:17   figure out the kind of woman I wanted to [TS]

00:02:20   spend the rest of my life well to [TS]

00:02:22   understand this is a conundrum [TS]

00:02:24   yeah it goes up it comes up from time to [TS]

00:02:26   time you think I'm gonna you know I feel [TS]

00:02:29   like I feel like I've gone through [TS]

00:02:31   several experimental phases that [TS]

00:02:33   like I am now a comfortable saying that [TS]

00:02:38   I'm heterosexual and i'm going to bed [TS]

00:02:40   i'm interested in women now that you're [TS]

00:02:42   finally willing to admit that [TS]

00:02:43   yeah and and like so what is my what is [TS]

00:02:46   my what who is my my other who is my my [TS]

00:02:50   my woman partner and I went through [TS]

00:02:53   several iterations of like well let's [TS]

00:02:56   see you know I feel like I wanted to be [TS]

00:02:58   confident and strong and and capable in [TS]

00:03:02   her own person and all that you know [TS]

00:03:04   there were also many so many examples in [TS]

00:03:07   college of people that I didn't want to [TS]

00:03:09   be that kind of man I didn't want to be [TS]

00:03:11   around that kind of man I didn't want to [TS]

00:03:13   be with that kind of woman etc and out [TS]

00:03:17   there was a there was a gallon one of my [TS]

00:03:19   classes who had a blonde hair braided in [TS]

00:03:23   this braid that was as thick as a baby's [TS]

00:03:25   arm and it went down past her hand tool [TS]

00:03:33   the turquoise accented leather belt you [TS]

00:03:38   paint a picture and she sometimes she [TS]

00:03:41   always had like dusty rough out cowboy [TS]

00:03:44   boots on and sometimes she wore a kind [TS]

00:03:49   of let's say blow blowjo hat [TS]

00:03:54   mmm machinist who she is and she really [TS]

00:03:58   did and she this is you know what 1991 [TS]

00:04:01   91 or 92 and so I was suicidal up to her [TS]

00:04:07   and she would also like always was [TS]

00:04:09   really engaged with the professor always [TS]

00:04:11   you know sitting in the few always sat [TS]

00:04:13   in the front row so i could see her [TS]

00:04:14   braids because i was sitting in the back [TS]

00:04:17   of course so because i like to survey [TS]

00:04:20   the class [TS]

00:04:21   yeah I asked her out [TS]

00:04:24   we went out on a few dates they were [TS]

00:04:26   sort of it was sort of middling you know [TS]

00:04:30   what I mean [TS]

00:04:31   uh-huh because it turned out later that [TS]

00:04:35   I did not really want like a Santa Fe [TS]

00:04:38   artist type [TS]

00:04:43   yeah you know like that's not where I [TS]

00:04:46   was headed in life but at one point she [TS]

00:04:49   was like let's go skydiving and I felt [TS]

00:04:53   like this is the kind of adventurous [TS]

00:04:55   date that I always dreamt of right she [TS]

00:05:00   she she proposes that we go skydiving of [TS]

00:05:02   course I'll go skydiving we went up we [TS]

00:05:06   spent the whole day skydiving and you [TS]

00:05:09   know you have the option of going where [TS]

00:05:11   you're basically wearing an actual [TS]

00:05:14   skydivers a backpack right or going by [TS]

00:05:18   yourself and I was like I don't want [TS]

00:05:19   anybody humping me on the way down like [TS]

00:05:21   I'm work we're gonna go we're gonna go [TS]

00:05:24   are essentially essentially she didn't [TS]

00:05:26   want that option if you're probably [TS]

00:05:29   feeling a little and dignified if you're [TS]

00:05:30   like me can I have two people yeah can [TS]

00:05:33   we all go to backup person too and it [TS]

00:05:36   was pretty amazing you know i I've spent [TS]

00:05:39   a lot of time in small planes so I [TS]

00:05:40   wasn't uncomfortable I wasn't anxious [TS]

00:05:43   being in the plane and we get up there [TS]

00:05:46   and they're like okay who wants to go [TS]

00:05:49   first and kind of look around there's [TS]

00:05:51   like five of us in the plane not even [TS]

00:05:53   not even it was a small plane was like [TS]

00:05:55   there are three of us let's say I don't [TS]

00:05:57   remember so long but I remember the part [TS]

00:05:59   where they would have to be four of you [TS]

00:06:02   if you had a grabby guy down so you but [TS]

00:06:04   you're saying you like it not to have a [TS]

00:06:05   great guy [TS]

00:06:06   neither of us had grabbed again I and [TS]

00:06:09   and she in the in the moment she looked [TS]

00:06:12   at me she was like you go first and I [TS]

00:06:13   was like I'll go first and I'm and I was [TS]

00:06:15   not feeling any like anxiety at all this [TS]

00:06:20   was all very familiar sights and smells [TS]

00:06:22   and so I stepped out on the like every [TS]

00:06:25   other plane ship you've ever taken [TS]

00:06:26   except you jump out in the sky [TS]

00:06:28   yeah except i'm wearing a parachute on [TS]

00:06:30   this one yeah [TS]

00:06:31   and there are there aren't really seats [TS]

00:06:33   in the plan right you're just kind of [TS]

00:06:34   sitting in its empty plane so I like [TS]

00:06:38   they're like put your feet on the wheel [TS]

00:06:40   and I'm like a very comfortable doing [TS]

00:06:43   this I'd put my feet on the wheel a [TS]

00:06:45   million times not in the air but that [TS]

00:06:49   not feeling weird at all [TS]

00:06:51   put my feet on the wheel and they're [TS]

00:06:52   like reach out and grab onto the strut [TS]

00:06:54   with your feet on the wheel strap the [TS]

00:06:57   thing that holds the wing up [TS]

00:06:58   that's right because we're in a 185 or [TS]

00:07:01   something that's it [TS]

00:07:02   the highway in airplane so I reached out [TS]

00:07:05   and I grabbed onto the strut I'm feeling [TS]

00:07:07   very confident and then the guy says now [TS]

00:07:11   just slip your feet off the wheel and [TS]

00:07:14   hold onto the strut and it seems like [TS]

00:07:19   this it was the like uh obviously that's [TS]

00:07:23   the next move right and my vision was [TS]

00:07:26   that i was going to slip my feet off the [TS]

00:07:28   wheel and my feet were gonna like fly [TS]

00:07:31   back behind me and then I would be [TS]

00:07:34   hanging onto the strut like Superman [TS]

00:07:37   with my body you know straight behind me [TS]

00:07:42   and then I would have the opportunity to [TS]

00:07:45   decide whether I was gonna jump or not [TS]

00:07:49   and of course you slip your feet off the [TS]

00:07:53   wheel and you don't your feet don't hang [TS]

00:07:58   behind you and you're not like flying [TS]

00:07:59   like superman deciding whether to jump [TS]

00:08:01   around [TS]

00:08:02   Harold Lloyd hang on the face of a clock [TS]

00:08:04   that's exactly right you slip your feet [TS]

00:08:06   up the wheel and all of a sudden your [TS]

00:08:08   whole body weight plus the weight of the [TS]

00:08:10   air the friction is pulling at you [TS]

00:08:16   grandma hungry for you you're holding on [TS]

00:08:18   it is strut with your cat claws and I [TS]

00:08:22   was like what [TS]

00:08:23   no wait and then there's no there's no [TS]

00:08:26   deciding to jump you cling to this plane [TS]

00:08:29   until you are swept off of it and it's a [TS]

00:08:32   genius move it sounds like skydiving [TS]

00:08:35   hack they don't really tell you that [TS]

00:08:36   that's that's the trick [TS]

00:08:37   yeah there's no like they've been [TS]

00:08:39   through this many times you don't stand [TS]

00:08:40   in the doorway and the guys like okay [TS]

00:08:42   whenever you're [TS]

00:08:43   ready inhale or or the light turns green [TS]

00:08:47   and you jump because they've been doing [TS]

00:08:49   this for years and i'm sure people just [TS]

00:08:50   stand there in the doorway paralyzed [TS]

00:08:52   like yes no yes no [TS]

00:08:54   so he walks you through this like stand [TS]

00:08:56   on the wheel [TS]

00:08:57   ok grab the strut right now just slip [TS]

00:08:59   your feet off and the decision is made [TS]

00:09:02   my god and so there's there's this [TS]

00:09:05   picture of me holding onto the strut [TS]

00:09:08   with my tongue completely out of my [TS]

00:09:12   mouth like a like a golden retriever [TS]

00:09:14   sticking his head out the window of a [TS]

00:09:17   car huh [TS]

00:09:18   because I open my mouth at to stick my [TS]

00:09:21   tongue out in like a in a sort of in the [TS]

00:09:24   style of the times like a Shaka bra like [TS]

00:09:26   and the wind grabbed my tongue and [TS]

00:09:30   stretched it to my ear and it's just it [TS]

00:09:33   i was only hanging therefore it could [TS]

00:09:35   have only been a couple of seconds [TS]

00:09:37   before I was swept off the plane [TS]

00:09:39   oh my god and man is it open in that [TS]

00:09:44   kind of I mean something you haven't had [TS]

00:09:45   any kind of training for this is where [TS]

00:09:47   it opens automatically when you jump off [TS]

00:09:49   the plane right yeah it's like it's like [TS]

00:09:50   what it like parachuting onto a DJ beach [TS]

00:09:54   it's connected to the plane with a cord [TS]

00:09:56   and you as soon as you fall away Richard [TS]

00:10:00   a horrible horrible way to do that is it [TS]

00:10:04   only works on the first guy right [TS]

00:10:06   because you can check the other folks do [TS]

00:10:07   here put your feet on the wheel well you [TS]

00:10:10   know I for the people for the people [TS]

00:10:12   that are in the plane it probably looked [TS]

00:10:14   like I got out there did the whole thing [TS]

00:10:17   that was like I'm ready [TS]

00:10:18   can you go to hit your head or something [TS]

00:10:20   well no because because they have you [TS]

00:10:22   away from the plane because they have [TS]

00:10:25   you reach out and grab the strut kind of [TS]

00:10:27   far as far out as you can as far as that [TS]

00:10:31   out as you can reach so you're I [TS]

00:10:32   wouldn't jump into a pool that way let [TS]

00:10:34   alone the sky haha and what was [TS]

00:10:38   incredible was they during the training [TS]

00:10:40   which is a couple of hours of like [TS]

00:10:43   here's what's gonna happen you're gonna [TS]

00:10:44   fall [TS]

00:10:45   it's going on walk and talk as you go [TS]

00:10:47   through the gift shop [TS]

00:10:48   yeah and incidentally they have anything [TS]

00:10:50   in your heels great we got professional [TS]

00:10:52   pressure package here don't worry about [TS]

00:10:54   it one [TS]

00:10:55   Charlie I they talk about the fact that [TS]

00:10:58   a lot of people blackout [TS]

00:11:01   yeah that that the experience of falling [TS]

00:11:04   from an airplane is so unfamiliar that [TS]

00:11:08   your body just selected several your [TS]

00:11:11   body just reboots just what i was [TS]

00:11:13   thinking i mean ii to do like actual [TS]

00:11:15   real parachute skydiving where you pull [TS]

00:11:18   your cord [TS]

00:11:18   I mean don't you go through like weeks [TS]

00:11:20   and weeks of training yeah you have to [TS]

00:11:21   do this where the things that i love [TS]

00:11:23   lucy i'm pretty sure you have to [TS]

00:11:25   actually have lots of training and jump [TS]

00:11:26   off a little block and stuff and look at [TS]

00:11:27   all all of that and then you have to do [TS]

00:11:29   multiple skydives where the case where [TS]

00:11:32   the court is pulled for you right [TS]

00:11:34   because what as I was going through the [TS]

00:11:36   training I was like there's no way I'm [TS]

00:11:38   gonna black out like coming what's the [TS]

00:11:40   pool though it seems a little bit but [TS]

00:11:42   let's see a little bit like having [TS]

00:11:44   somebody take swimming class for eight [TS]

00:11:46   weeks without ever actually getting into [TS]

00:11:47   the water and then and say here's how [TS]

00:11:50   you doing here is a youtube restroom [TS]

00:11:51   ready like the head right go right [TS]

00:11:55   sploosh well so so I'm like there's no [TS]

00:11:57   way i'm in a blackout but as soon as I [TS]

00:11:59   let go of the strut soon as I was swept [TS]

00:12:02   off the wing of the plane to be honest I [TS]

00:12:05   have very clear memory of the because [TS]

00:12:09   you i'm falling backwards right i mean [TS]

00:12:10   i'm like i fall away and what I'm [TS]

00:12:13   looking I'm not looking down i'm looking [TS]

00:12:16   up because just the nature of the way of [TS]

00:12:20   cold and icy the plane getting rapidly [TS]

00:12:27   smaller as it goes away from me and I [TS]

00:12:33   get total tunnel vision like everything [TS]

00:12:35   collapses [TS]

00:12:37   yeah and i am on the absolute verge of [TS]

00:12:40   blacking out all I can see in the very [TS]

00:12:42   center of my perception is this little [TS]

00:12:46   like kind of like the end of a looney [TS]

00:12:48   tunes marrano know [TS]

00:12:51   that and it just goes limp and I can see [TS]

00:12:54   the airplane in the center of this [TS]

00:12:56   little hole of light as it falls away [TS]

00:12:59   from me and i managed to fight off [TS]

00:13:03   completely passing out but just barely [TS]

00:13:08   and then the parachute and then all of a [TS]

00:13:11   sudden you're hanging about your hanging [TS]

00:13:13   under a canopy and only then do you [TS]

00:13:16   realize that you're hiding under a [TS]

00:13:17   canopy like 6,000 feet above the ground [TS]

00:13:20   certain and that is a completely [TS]

00:13:24   outrageous feeling because you're [TS]

00:13:27   because you know your beer see your feet [TS]

00:13:30   and your but keep trying to find the [TS]

00:13:33   chair you're just like where everything [TS]

00:13:38   every impulse I mean you know you want [TS]

00:13:40   people to the movies they look cool and [TS]

00:13:41   stuff in the every impulse your body [TS]

00:13:43   would have at that point would be [TS]

00:13:45   asinine to turn into a spectator because [TS]

00:13:47   first of all I would shoot myself pretty [TS]

00:13:49   sure I would shoot myself in the plane i [TS]

00:13:51   would reshape myself on the strut and [TS]

00:13:53   then i would probably just periodically [TS]

00:13:54   continue to shit as I felt through the [TS]

00:13:57   sky 6,000 feet [TS]

00:13:59   I it was it ended up being totally [TS]

00:14:02   fantastic when you do definitely at [TS]

00:14:04   first feel like I mean to be completely [TS]

00:14:07   I mean I'm just thinking it must be you [TS]

00:14:10   think about like waterboarding and what [TS]

00:14:12   makes waterboarding so awful is that [TS]

00:14:13   it's it's forcing you into this [TS]

00:14:15   situation that your body there the they [TS]

00:14:17   are capitalizing on something that your [TS]

00:14:19   body does like autonomic Lee which is [TS]

00:14:22   like to try and stop you from from [TS]

00:14:23   choking and they can emulate the feeling [TS]

00:14:25   of drowning in a very controlled way [TS]

00:14:27   which is horrifying and it seems like [TS]

00:14:29   every instinct you've never experienced [TS]

00:14:31   anything like a freefall that ended with [TS]

00:14:33   anything but horrible injuries seems [TS]

00:14:35   like every second of the way at least [TS]

00:14:37   first you your body would just be your [TS]

00:14:39   body and your mind will just be reeling [TS]

00:14:41   with like what to do [TS]

00:14:42   yes that was fall I guess and then when [TS]

00:14:44   you're under the parachute you keep your [TS]

00:14:46   instinct is like i said to like get back [TS]

00:14:49   on Kelly bicycling you're like I'm now [TS]

00:14:52   i'm hanging and i would now like I'm [TS]

00:14:54   hanging by a by a harness and i would [TS]

00:14:56   like to get back on this chair that I [TS]

00:14:59   fell off of i would like to get back up [TS]

00:15:01   on the thing that I left [TS]

00:15:03   behind and then you know you look up and [TS]

00:15:05   you see this little insect of a plane [TS]

00:15:07   which is now miles away and you're like [TS]

00:15:09   oh right there's no getting back on so [TS]

00:15:11   now here I am what I'm on is this [TS]

00:15:13   parachute but and it was great they [TS]

00:15:16   didn't do they didn't give you any [TS]

00:15:17   training for the parachute but it was [TS]

00:15:19   one of those parachutes that had that [TS]

00:15:21   was maneuverable right it had handles on [TS]

00:15:23   both you know ropes on either side that [TS]

00:15:26   you could pull and and make the thing [TS]

00:15:28   turn so we can actually works it's in [TS]

00:15:31   them it's amazing it's like a little [TS]

00:15:32   plain [TS]

00:15:33   the problem being that the more [TS]

00:15:35   maneuvering you do the faster you [TS]

00:15:37   descend so I was really enjoying being [TS]

00:15:41   up in the sky because you're slightly [TS]

00:15:43   compromising the canopy nosov it in [TS]

00:15:45   order to steer right let me drop when [TS]

00:15:49   you drop you dropped to give yourself [TS]

00:15:51   you know to carve turns or whatever but [TS]

00:15:53   but it's a faster descent so I didn't so [TS]

00:15:56   you have to balance the amount of [TS]

00:15:57   goofing around you want to do with the [TS]

00:15:59   amount of time that you want to spend in [TS]

00:16:02   this extraordinary state which is like [TS]

00:16:04   you're flying that's as close as I've [TS]

00:16:08   come to it's a flight right an extended [TS]

00:16:12   flight because there's no sound [TS]

00:16:15   wow just you just up there flatfoot [TS]

00:16:17   gonna be here some flapping fabric how [TS]

00:16:19   long it you know how long it took to get [TS]

00:16:21   from the plane to the ground [TS]

00:16:22   no but it was a but it was a five [TS]

00:16:25   minutes [TS]

00:16:26   well let's see it probably wasn't 6,000 [TS]

00:16:28   feet either it was probably 4,000 feet [TS]

00:16:30   and I mean it lasted a couple of minutes [TS]

00:16:34   but it was they were peak minutes 35 [TS]

00:16:36   minutes maybe I mean I don't who knows [TS]

00:16:39   i'm behind how do you land i mean isn't [TS]

00:16:41   rolling thing [TS]

00:16:42   well so then as you come in for a [TS]

00:16:43   landing you you pull down on both sides [TS]

00:16:46   of the of the rope and it kind of [TS]

00:16:48   stalled you like I stalls you and I made [TS]

00:16:52   a pinpoint landing right on the circle [TS]

00:16:54   and you can stay on my feet didn't you [TS]

00:16:57   kidding no it's not like it's not like [TS]

00:16:59   world war two where you land and maybe [TS]

00:17:01   break your leg like that with the fall [TS]

00:17:03   fast right isn't it yeah and when you're [TS]

00:17:06   dropping troops into Normandy like you [TS]

00:17:09   need to get them out of the sky as fast [TS]

00:17:11   as possible get them out of the sky and [TS]

00:17:12   also those parachutes were not [TS]

00:17:15   maneuverable [TS]

00:17:16   so you were falling at a steady rate and [TS]

00:17:19   you had no control over how fast or how [TS]

00:17:21   you know you or how to steer you just [TS]

00:17:24   were those parachutes were just going to [TS]

00:17:26   drop you where they were going to drop [TS]

00:17:27   you and that's why all those guys ended [TS]

00:17:29   up in trees are hanging from from [TS]

00:17:31   travelocity scotch the whole program [TS]

00:17:32   they ended up going to and landed in a [TS]

00:17:34   whole different town and then having to [TS]

00:17:35   catch back up right had to catch back up [TS]

00:17:38   and that was that easy whistles and half [TS]

00:17:40   of them didn't have their guns and their [TS]

00:17:43   clickers cookie clickers that's in that [TS]

00:17:45   was this clicker you so but these pop [TS]

00:17:48   modern parachutes and I'm sure that [TS]

00:17:49   modern parachutists right special [TS]

00:17:52   infantry guys I'm sure they have some [TS]

00:17:56   control over their parachutes are more [TS]

00:17:58   yeah although i'm not sure if every one [TS]

00:18:01   of the if you dropped four hundred guys [TS]

00:18:03   out of the back of an airplane and every [TS]

00:18:04   one of them could steer his parachute [TS]

00:18:06   uh-huh i think that would be a [TS]

00:18:08   clusterfuck right because every every [TS]

00:18:11   single guy be like I want to go over [TS]

00:18:12   here and then they don't give details [TS]

00:18:14   the kids what they want to go to dinner [TS]

00:18:16   exactly it would be it would be like am [TS]

00:18:20   it would be like a petri dish of sperm [TS]

00:18:22   or something so you made it and has she [TS]

00:18:25   did she jump she jumps she did great she [TS]

00:18:28   was very much like you know she she [TS]

00:18:31   maintained total confidence throughout [TS]

00:18:33   the whole thing and then at the end of [TS]

00:18:35   the day on the drive back we had some [TS]

00:18:38   kind of fight some kind of argument in [TS]

00:18:42   the car [TS]

00:18:43   I don't remember what it was about but [TS]

00:18:45   it was clear that that was our last date [TS]

00:18:47   jumping out of the airplane was our last [TS]

00:18:51   date because because it is one going to [TS]

00:18:54   work out [TS]

00:18:54   it felt like it felt like you know in a [TS]

00:18:57   way it's better that we went parachuting [TS]

00:19:00   to try and save our relationship then [TS]

00:19:02   having a baby but it was one of those [TS]

00:19:07   like all right well let's you know maybe [TS]

00:19:08   seems easier [TS]

00:19:09   let's go let's go jump out of an [TS]

00:19:11   airplane and see if that like bonds us [TS]

00:19:14   and in fact what it did was it just it's [TS]

00:19:16   just it's it broke apart [TS]

00:19:19   oh and then later that summer I was down [TS]

00:19:24   in Seattle's like ritzy neighborhood [TS]

00:19:28   walking past a kind of a ritzy French [TS]

00:19:30   restaurant with a nap with outdoor [TS]

00:19:32   seating and she jumped up and she was [TS]

00:19:35   like John hey I want you to meet my [TS]

00:19:38   fiance and he was some really preppy [TS]

00:19:43   rich feeling rich smelling guy and that [TS]

00:19:49   was during a that summer was kind of the [TS]

00:19:51   phase I was going through a phase they [TS]

00:19:53   were i was like what am I am I am I like [TS]

00:19:57   a grunge loser or mi like a straight guy [TS]

00:20:03   who should get a a banking job like you [TS]

00:20:09   know cause I like you finally settled [TS]

00:20:11   that self-doubt yeah thank you who you [TS]

00:20:14   are what you see this boy was worth it [TS]

00:20:17   to get through that it was that was a [TS]

00:20:19   tough time I'm glad to talk about [TS]

00:20:21   summers mean x [TS]

00:20:22   yeah well anything was I didn't you know [TS]

00:20:26   I was just like oh I'm good luck to both [TS]

00:20:27   of you like hooray for you and I just I [TS]

00:20:30   felt like right Yes I am NOT at least [TS]

00:20:34   that whole part of college where you're [TS]

00:20:36   in college you're kind of looking for [TS]

00:20:38   your mate and then you're going to go [TS]

00:20:42   off on your life's path together i'm not [TS]

00:20:46   sure whether I this is one of those big [TS]

00:20:47   questions did I decide to trial and [TS]

00:20:50   error and trial and error decided you [TS]

00:20:53   exactly what i learned that that was not [TS]

00:20:56   who I was or did that it ended up that I [TS]

00:20:58   was that wasn't who I was I never worked [TS]

00:21:01   out [TS]

00:21:01   and the worst part is when you think you [TS]

00:21:03   know and you're probably wrong I my arm [TS]

00:21:05   my wife and I met we're both on the [TS]

00:21:08   rebound from along each of us had been a [TS]

00:21:11   long serious relationship and so of [TS]

00:21:13   course you know you and your kind of [TS]

00:21:15   bonding quickly in this new relationship [TS]

00:21:16   you talk a lot about the other person I [TS]

00:21:19   don't I think we've been together maybe [TS]

00:21:20   a week a week or so when we're walking [TS]

00:21:24   past a coffee shop and she goes out [TS]

00:21:26   there's empty him [TS]

00:21:29   whoa one week yeah yeah and what was [TS]

00:21:32   funny was that I felt like I felt like [TS]

00:21:34   Woody Allen in Annie Hall like when he [TS]

00:21:38   meets while Sean clique [TS]

00:21:41   and you know where a nice talk so much [TS]

00:21:43   about this this ex of hers maybe [TS]

00:21:45   Manhattan anything with it was expecting [TS]

00:21:47   this little homunculus of a man she met [TS]

00:21:50   this guy sounds so so like he's a really [TS]

00:21:52   nice guy but you know it's it's so [TS]

00:21:54   uncomfortable hate that feeling well and [TS]

00:22:00   then you decided to get married you guys [TS]

00:22:03   yeah eventually yeah yeah see I never I [TS]

00:22:06   never decided that [TS]

00:22:07   yeah I I wonder what that would be like [TS]

00:22:10   what I have to make you probably have to [TS]

00:22:14   change the house a little bit yeah you [TS]

00:22:17   know I would have said that for having a [TS]

00:22:18   kid too and you probably do some basic [TS]

00:22:20   baby-proofing or maybe not but uh put [TS]

00:22:24   the poisons on a higher shelf [TS]

00:22:25   she's still free to go look at the [TS]

00:22:26   Braille playboys absolutely how she's [TS]

00:22:30   gonna get an education otherwise you're [TS]

00:22:31   gonna learn Braille find out which is [TS]

00:22:33   your stereo system to buy yeah I don't I [TS]

00:22:36   I all of that College experimentation [TS]

00:22:39   I feel like a lot of a lot of people [TS]

00:22:43   take they can look back at their college [TS]

00:22:46   experimentation and feel like it was [TS]

00:22:49   part of a project that delivered them [TS]

00:22:52   somewhere i get the ultimate they can [TS]

00:22:54   they can impose a structure or a plan on [TS]

00:22:56   it [TS]

00:22:57   in retrospect oh yeah but then that's [TS]

00:23:00   when you're still that's when you still [TS]

00:23:01   young enough to think things happen for [TS]

00:23:03   a reason [TS]

00:23:03   yeah and now the problem is that none of [TS]

00:23:06   that it for me ever seem to add up to a [TS]

00:23:10   path there's those all this College [TS]

00:23:13   experimentation and it was just like [TS]

00:23:15   different it was different but um [TS]

00:23:18   different little little knob Yul's [TS]

00:23:23   inside of a lung [TS]

00:23:25   I was just building like along [TS]

00:23:28   architecture everything along i was [TS]

00:23:32   building a long experience an [TS]

00:23:33   existential lucky [TS]

00:23:35   yeah it was certain long shaped just the [TS]

00:23:39   one along a long shift experience but [TS]

00:23:42   what it turned out was that I didn't [TS]

00:23:44   even need alarm i was [TS]

00:23:46   building a long sigh i was having long [TS]

00:23:47   shaped experiences and what I needed was [TS]

00:23:50   a different kind of organ I needed a [TS]

00:23:52   liver or maybe I wasn't even [TS]

00:23:53   bioengineering they deliver us together [TS]

00:23:56   the other thing is that you know [TS]

00:23:57   sometimes just because the pattern looks [TS]

00:23:59   like a long that mean it's a look [TS]

00:24:00   well so okay that's true too now that's [TS]

00:24:03   what that's what I'm saying I'm saying [TS]

00:24:04   like that's to be to finally get to our [TS]

00:24:06   age where you are really broken by life [TS]

00:24:08   and you stopped seeing those patterns [TS]

00:24:10   you know you don't you don't realize at [TS]

00:24:12   the time how chaotic and misshapen your [TS]

00:24:15   life is and how much like at least for [TS]

00:24:17   me like how much I was always reacting [TS]

00:24:19   to something that had happened in the [TS]

00:24:21   past I don't make stop how about some [TS]

00:24:23   level I always felt like I'm fixing this [TS]

00:24:25   thing about life and then of course I [TS]

00:24:28   was you know kind of fun fixing 50,000 [TS]

00:24:30   other things at the same time and [TS]

00:24:32   there's no there's not really any [TS]

00:24:33   pattern to it except that you stayed [TS]

00:24:35   alive and isn't that weird if you're [TS]

00:24:38   kind of where i'll end up look at you [TS]

00:24:39   didn't die that's you if you try to take [TS]

00:24:43   to me lessons out of life you turn into [TS]

00:24:44   a crazy person didn't I didn't I mean [TS]

00:24:46   and ultimately I guess what a long [TS]

00:24:49   architecture is is is fractals [TS]

00:24:51   hmm and also the novel is our fractal [TS]

00:24:54   they're like miniature lungs inside the [TS]

00:24:56   lungs reiterating I think that's true i [TS]

00:24:58   think if you get down inside of a long [TS]

00:25:00   and you get really microscopic on it's [TS]

00:25:02   just a it's a four losses call quick to [TS]

00:25:04   all the way down and what I was building [TS]

00:25:06   was it was a fractal was like fractal [TS]

00:25:09   long and and and what I needed was a [TS]

00:25:13   different or maybe I didn't [TS]

00:25:15   maybe the need is the wrong word [TS]

00:25:16   anything you take away from the show [TS]

00:25:18   today please just let it be this make [TS]

00:25:20   sure that you're actually building an [TS]

00:25:22   organ you may not be building Morgan you [TS]

00:25:23   may not even need to build an organ but [TS]

00:25:25   if you're going to build an organ [TS]

00:25:26   understand the organ that's being built [TS]

00:25:27   and we might need two of them so you're [TS]

00:25:29   already probably never gonna get that [TS]

00:25:30   project finished [TS]

00:25:31   that's right if you get down inside of a [TS]

00:25:33   heart I don't think it's hard to all the [TS]

00:25:34   way down oh no no no hearts are made of [TS]

00:25:37   ugly things right not novels no hearts [TS]

00:25:40   are made of Valve's em an out-and-out [TS]

00:25:43   parts are made of valves [TS]

00:25:47   so our car motors is that right yeah but [TS]

00:25:51   the engine doesn't beat up those things [TS]

00:25:56   in its way because it's got the [TS]

00:25:57   cylinders to throw up the cylinders move [TS]

00:25:59   kinda like the way to get you get the [TS]

00:26:02   arteries in the ventricles that was [TS]

00:26:03   called nobody calls ventricles you know [TS]

00:26:06   four chambers right that's right baby [TS]

00:26:09   orders [TS]

00:26:09   is that right am I saying the right [TS]

00:26:11   words I honestly don't remember any of [TS]

00:26:12   this [TS]

00:26:13   I there are a lot of scientists [TS]

00:26:15   listening to the program [TS]

00:26:16   yes have the answer readily at hand you [TS]

00:26:19   think I feel like I feel like a orders [TS]

00:26:22   an aorta is the main vein here's the [TS]

00:26:25   difference between us and bring you here [TS]

00:26:28   in vain visit us in you listener is that [TS]

00:26:30   we're just saying words and you're [TS]

00:26:32   listening to this while you're looking [TS]

00:26:33   at Wikipedia that's the difference [TS]

00:26:35   that's how much smarter you are is that [TS]

00:26:36   you're looking wikipedia and we're no [TS]

00:26:38   more puzzles no I know isn't that what [TS]

00:26:40   makes bruises when you papa what papa [TS]

00:26:44   valve when you pop out what is the best [TS]

00:26:45   present of Papa corpuscle huh [TS]

00:26:49   no I think that cover your puzzle is [TS]

00:26:51   what sticks on the outside of a boat [TS]

00:26:54   yeah you have to capture your heart this [TS]

00:26:57   episode of Roderick on the line is [TS]

00:26:59   sponsored by need need is a refined [TS]

00:27:01   retailer and lifestyle publication for [TS]

00:27:03   men each month needs sources and curate [TS]

00:27:06   a selection of exclusive products from [TS]

00:27:08   brands around the world represented in a [TS]

00:27:10   monthly editorial a lot like what you'd [TS]

00:27:12   expect from a typical men's magazine [TS]

00:27:14   allowing you to find the best products [TS]

00:27:16   without the need for copious shopping or [TS]

00:27:17   research now need has just launched [TS]

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00:27:22   make small meaningful changes in your [TS]

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00:27:30   and if that's not a good fit need also [TS]

00:27:32   just launched seven brand new essentials [TS]

00:27:34   collections featuring the best denim [TS]

00:27:36   footwear and more now here's the cool [TS]

00:27:38   thing [TS]

00:27:39   Roderick on the line listeners who [TS]

00:27:40   placed an order with need can send an [TS]

00:27:42   email to hello at need edition calm with [TS]

00:27:45   the subject line all the great clothes [TS]

00:27:48   and you'll receive a free bag of freshly [TS]

00:27:50   roasted coffee unless you're some kind [TS]

00:27:53   of an animal who doesn't like coffee and [TS]

00:27:54   I'll send your magazine but hey you also [TS]

00:27:57   get twenty-five percent off your next [TS]

00:27:58   order with need so please friends visit [TS]

00:28:01   need edition calm and need edition calm [TS]

00:28:04   / essentials are thanks to need for [TS]

00:28:07   civilizing the modern man and for [TS]

00:28:09   supporting Roderick on the line [TS]

00:28:10   um do you think of yourself as a member [TS]

00:28:14   of the tech community I used to very [TS]

00:28:18   much so now it's I would consider myself [TS]

00:28:21   a secondary or tertiary member by other [TS]

00:28:25   people maybe I don't use the things [TS]

00:28:28   twice and i usually consider myself as [TS]

00:28:29   you know a season technologists and now [TS]

00:28:31   i don't think that at all i'm confused [TS]

00:28:33   because there's no al just answer the [TS]

00:28:35   question quickly like it's this kind of [TS]

00:28:37   there's many kinds of people but one way [TS]

00:28:39   one way to break down how much of a tech [TS]

00:28:41   person you are i think is how much you [TS]

00:28:44   are into the technology we kind of for [TS]

00:28:48   its own sake vs 250 million other [TS]

00:28:50   reasons and like I am increasingly [TS]

00:28:53   perfect perplexed by the people who are [TS]

00:28:55   genuinely interested in things like chip [TS]

00:28:56   speeds because I I'm not trying to be [TS]

00:28:59   disparaging but there's a time I used to [TS]

00:29:00   think I was a tech person but they've [TS]

00:29:02   always been a little of a content person [TS]

00:29:03   oh IC content content hate that word oh [TS]

00:29:07   when I look at pictures of you when you [TS]

00:29:09   were in college with your with your that [TS]

00:29:14   I don't like a pan and then for sure [TS]

00:29:15   with your dread pirate roberts mustache [TS]

00:29:18   you know there's three people I used to [TS]

00:29:21   be compared to in terms of looks this is [TS]

00:29:22   so implausible now Bakary Elway's mom [TS]

00:29:25   Michael Michael Palin and who is the [TS]

00:29:27   other one but that people use to take a [TS]

00:29:29   look like Carrie always carry always [TS]

00:29:30   like on my best day I looked a little [TS]

00:29:32   like Harry always I I feel like it i [TS]

00:29:34   feel like you're so you back sorry I [TS]

00:29:36   just spoiled princess bride look back [TS]

00:29:38   when you were when you were a smile [TS]

00:29:40   Taylor back when you were young guy and [TS]

00:29:42   you were in the New York City subways do [TS]

00:29:45   get in your army jacket with your big [TS]

00:29:47   shit-eating grin on I got it figured out [TS]

00:29:49   your little blond mustache you were very [TS]

00:29:51   scary always mhm on that hair at that [TS]

00:29:55   point in your life did you feel like you [TS]

00:29:58   were a member of a community [TS]

00:30:00   yes what was the community [TS]

00:30:03   I feel like at that time I was a member [TS]

00:30:07   of a few i mean the thing is is I can't [TS]

00:30:10   help but think of it this one way which [TS]

00:30:12   is like [TS]

00:30:13   when you asked this question so it's a [TS]

00:30:14   really interesting question the [TS]

00:30:15   technology 12 is like my first thought [TS]

00:30:17   is do I consider myself a member of that [TS]

00:30:20   community but conversely does that [TS]

00:30:23   community consider me part of that [TS]

00:30:24   community right which i think is a [TS]

00:30:26   pretty different kind of thing but no at [TS]

00:30:28   that time I was really I felt I'm want [TS]

00:30:31   to it's very small school and I had a [TS]

00:30:33   lot of friends so I you know I was in I [TS]

00:30:36   felt very connected to several music [TS]

00:30:39   type communities that you remember of [TS]

00:30:41   the Dead Milkmen fan club [TS]

00:30:43   that's right and they considered you as [TS]

00:30:45   a member in good standing [TS]

00:30:46   I saw them live in tampa hi Dean back in [TS]

00:30:50   the day is I dread zeppelin same venue [TS]

00:30:52   what so i used to love going to see [TS]

00:30:54   dread zeppelin all there around all the [TS]

00:30:56   fun time that we had some times didn't [TS]

00:30:58   we [TS]

00:30:58   but done and the other ones were like [TS]

00:31:00   just the this not stony because i think [TS]

00:31:03   i like I don't think of myself as like a [TS]

00:31:06   stoner dummy but I was very interested [TS]

00:31:08   in things like churches of genius know [TS]

00:31:11   just what would become the super [TS]

00:31:13   annoying like research magazine culture [TS]

00:31:16   like I did consider myself like part i [TS]

00:31:18   was very interested i was interested in [TS]

00:31:20   extremity i was interested in Walter [TS]

00:31:23   Hudson the the heaviest man in the world [TS]

00:31:25   because I could still take 28 408 for [TS]

00:31:27   lunch every day for Big Macs four double [TS]

00:31:30   cheeseburgers eight large orders of [TS]

00:31:31   fries and a quart of coke while with [TS]

00:31:34   1400 pounds and so these kinds of things [TS]

00:31:37   attracted me and partly it was stony [TS]

00:31:38   stuff but like I was very interested in [TS]

00:31:40   extreme and of course I was a cheerful [TS]

00:31:43   paranoiac up being a half-assed Marxist [TS]

00:31:48   post Marxist i was very interested in in [TS]

00:31:51   all things paranoiac not strictly [TS]

00:31:53   conspiratorial but very much like Howard [TS]

00:31:55   germany was you know sometimes [TS]

00:31:58   deliberately being used to manipulate us [TS]

00:31:59   right now see that right there that was [TS]

00:32:02   a huge part of college for me so yeah I [TS]

00:32:04   thought was part of all those [TS]

00:32:05   communities you know you never consider [TS]

00:32:07   yourself too much of a community guy at [TS]

00:32:10   well you know I was members of i was a [TS]

00:32:12   member of a lot of different communities [TS]

00:32:15   that didn't interact with each other and [TS]

00:32:16   I felt I felt a kinship with that [TS]

00:32:19   community that you're describing [TS]

00:32:21   and you know and I thought and then [TS]

00:32:26   before there was a term for it before [TS]

00:32:28   that was called alternative culture it [TS]

00:32:30   just seemed like all of those different [TS]

00:32:32   things were sort of swirling around in [TS]

00:32:35   on the punk rock side of culture right [TS]

00:32:39   that was like no it wasn't going to say [TS]

00:32:41   it but basically the big Venn diagram [TS]

00:32:43   there's many many circles but almost all [TS]

00:32:44   of them have at least seventy percent of [TS]

00:32:47   their circle inside of punk rock from [TS]

00:32:48   inside a punk right and when they might [TS]

00:32:50   be giants first arrived on the scene [TS]

00:32:51   they were clearly coming out of that [TS]

00:32:53   culture right they kind of embodied a [TS]

00:32:58   sort of that it like you never knew what [TS]

00:33:02   punk rock was going to produce next and [TS]

00:33:04   it was like oh now it's now it's [TS]

00:33:06   producing this or I mean it you know it [TS]

00:33:08   was there was that there was a there was [TS]

00:33:10   a an excitement about weirdness an [TS]

00:33:13   excitement about extremity it was really [TS]

00:33:17   a really good DIY for sure right [TS]

00:33:20   right on and what she could you can say [TS]

00:33:22   that into something like independence [TS]

00:33:23   but if not strictly anti-authoritarian [TS]

00:33:26   very skeptical of people with the [TS]

00:33:29   answers in a method for implementing it [TS]

00:33:31   i saw i was driving here today and I saw [TS]

00:33:34   a poster for a band on a phone pole and [TS]

00:33:40   it was using sort of Soviet typeface [TS]

00:33:45   Soviet font like fake fake Soviet I like [TS]

00:33:50   that car accident maybe like that pushed [TS]

00:33:52   for the interview like that style right [TS]

00:33:55   except not not so not so watered down [TS]

00:33:58   like like in the style that we used to [TS]

00:34:00   do where it was like we didn't actually [TS]

00:34:01   have access to those typefaces so we're [TS]

00:34:03   kind of making them ourselves or [TS]

00:34:05   whatever and that that referencing [TS]

00:34:07   referencing the soviet union in a way [TS]

00:34:11   that was like four or referencing sort [TS]

00:34:14   of communist totalitarianism in a way [TS]

00:34:18   that was maybe a little admiring but not [TS]

00:34:21   completely not completely so no but I [TS]

00:34:23   totally know what you mean it's like [TS]

00:34:25   weirdly tongue-in-cheek like one thing [TS]

00:34:26   my wife and I bonded on early as we both [TS]

00:34:28   really like Maoist propaganda art I mean [TS]

00:34:32   it sends Gordon nursing [TS]

00:34:33   it's it's unbelievably gorgeous [TS]

00:34:35   especially given that it's about the [TS]

00:34:38   cultural revolution or the Great Leap [TS]

00:34:39   Forward and so looking at these [TS]

00:34:41   especially even a 70 so it can't work [TS]

00:34:43   out much more almost like Norman [TS]

00:34:45   Rockwell like almost photo-real but [TS]

00:34:48   what's funny is like it you know it [TS]

00:34:49   isn't so much you're saying oh raw [TS]

00:34:51   communism what you're saying [TS]

00:34:54   dude is that oh how different is stolen [TS]

00:34:57   from reagan right absolutely absolutely [TS]

00:35:00   it was a response to Reaganism yeah and [TS]

00:35:03   remember some of that Maoist art makes [TS]

00:35:07   for some of the best to rule 34 porn if [TS]

00:35:11   you're interested in searching for that [TS]

00:35:12   I had no idea because it's gonna take to [TS]

00:35:16   working on that letter of luggage strap [TS]

00:35:18   if you take that hyper realistic but [TS]

00:35:22   cartoony Chinese a like revolution art [TS]

00:35:27   and you and you make it into porn [TS]

00:35:29   Oh top shelf huh topshop if you're if [TS]

00:35:32   you're into light and China as a nexus 4 [TS]

00:35:34   porn I don't get a lot of japanese porn [TS]

00:35:38   John I don't think that that's the [TS]

00:35:39   Chinese that are making the porn out of [TS]

00:35:41   it i think it I think that's because [TS]

00:35:43   George offshore a little bit yeah [TS]

00:35:45   they're outsourcing yeah anyway I always [TS]

00:35:48   felt a kinship with that culture but I [TS]

00:35:51   never thought of myself as a member of [TS]

00:35:53   it because then I would leave that party [TS]

00:35:54   and I would go across town to the party [TS]

00:35:57   where everybody was wearing that first [TS]

00:36:00   generation of patagonia fleece jacket [TS]

00:36:02   yeah and they were all talking about [TS]

00:36:04   waxing their boards and I felt also know [TS]

00:36:09   that this is before it became the NPR [TS]

00:36:10   look this is this is back when people [TS]

00:36:12   actually wearing it to stay warm outside [TS]

00:36:14   well when that was like when I was [TS]

00:36:15   technical gear yeah or you know that [TS]

00:36:18   that that that first generation or [TS]

00:36:20   second generation of Patagonia north [TS]

00:36:22   face was all meant to just be it will it [TS]

00:36:25   hadn't become college kid close it was [TS]

00:36:28   meant to be worn when you're getting [TS]

00:36:31   some fucking bodacious there was a time [TS]

00:36:34   when you can't count on this gear you're [TS]

00:36:35   hanging hanging by a thread [TS]

00:36:37   you're hanging by a thread sorry um and [TS]

00:36:41   so I you know also I was a member of [TS]

00:36:43   that community [TS]

00:36:44   it just as much that the people that [TS]

00:36:47   were you know that were like living on [TS]

00:36:52   their longboards but i wasn't i also [TS]

00:36:55   wasn't a member of that community [TS]

00:36:56   anymore than i was a member of the [TS]

00:36:59   research but you're welcome to visit [TS]

00:37:01   unsane community I mean I was welcome i [TS]

00:37:03   hope i thought of myself as well from [TS]

00:37:06   everywhere and I still do and that's a [TS]

00:37:10   part of you know what I hope is [TS]

00:37:12   considered my charm you write that down [TS]

00:37:15   huh [TS]

00:37:16   but no one knows but it seems like a [TS]

00:37:19   certain point in your life and I've [TS]

00:37:20   certainly been this been this person [TS]

00:37:21   where you arrive somewhere and you're [TS]

00:37:23   pretty sure that at the very least the [TS]

00:37:26   party has now officially started now [TS]

00:37:27   that you're right but negeri it's [TS]

00:37:30   everything but a name like a tribute to [TS]

00:37:32   you right it's not quite a birthday [TS]

00:37:36   party or a roast but like you are always [TS]

00:37:38   the guest of honor where everything I [TS]

00:37:40   feel like I'd be like that I feel like I [TS]

00:37:42   absolutely for a long time would maybe [TS]

00:37:46   even walk in the door and say it is it [TS]

00:37:49   is started [TS]

00:37:51   who wants coffee it is fucking started [TS]

00:37:53   where is the canned ravioli [TS]

00:37:56   let's get out until I saw until I met my [TS]

00:37:59   match with a guy used to know who i'm [TS]

00:38:03   out i was standing in the kitchen with [TS]

00:38:04   him at a party and he was like this [TS]

00:38:05   fucking party's boring and I was like [TS]

00:38:07   yeah sorta and he reached over into the [TS]

00:38:09   cupboard and pulled out a like an [TS]

00:38:12   industrial-sized like gallon of honey [TS]

00:38:15   and i was like no this is not gonna end [TS]

00:38:17   well I was like what's gonna happen now [TS]

00:38:19   he just grabbed the honey and he opened [TS]

00:38:21   the honey up and poured it on his own [TS]

00:38:23   head [TS]

00:38:24   oh dear a gallon funny in the center of [TS]

00:38:26   the kitchen and it was like well the [TS]

00:38:28   party just got really interesting and [TS]

00:38:31   I'm glad I'm not the guy covered in [TS]

00:38:33   honey like this guy this guy took one [TS]

00:38:35   for the team he made he made the party [TS]

00:38:39   because that gonna be good for including [TS]

00:38:41   him it wasn't good for anybody can [TS]

00:38:43   discover with honey at a party [TS]

00:38:45   yeah it wasn't good for the for the the [TS]

00:38:47   homeowners know honey but that the 15 of [TS]

00:38:51   us who were standing around and watched [TS]

00:38:52   it happen it was unforgettable it really [TS]

00:38:55   you know [TS]

00:38:56   I'm how to go and get on the York to [TS]

00:38:58   that would have been memorably it was [TS]

00:39:00   basically it was a sheet he basically [TS]

00:39:01   took a sweet shit on the floor and it [TS]

00:39:05   took it took the party to another level [TS]

00:39:07   and I'm still talking about 25 years [TS]

00:39:09   later but uh but you know I also was a [TS]

00:39:13   member of the like i was doing an improv [TS]

00:39:16   then a like theater sports and all the [TS]

00:39:21   animal thing I knew that all of those [TS]

00:39:23   people in my theater sports troop were [TS]

00:39:26   completely off the off of whatever your [TS]

00:39:31   normal reservation would be right i mean [TS]

00:39:33   a lot of them were religious lot of [TS]

00:39:35   people at that time that I knew in [TS]

00:39:37   theater and profit that kind of stuff [TS]

00:39:39   that negatives just anecdotal but number [TS]

00:39:42   of people I knew who are into that were [TS]

00:39:43   into it like you know there's the people [TS]

00:39:45   who read the key johnstone book and skip [TS]

00:39:48   the section on masks and then there's [TS]

00:39:50   people who really really read the [TS]

00:39:52   section on masks like I'm more like the [TS]

00:39:54   I want to make want to be the dell close [TS]

00:39:55   guy I want to go be the upright citizens [TS]

00:39:57   brigade guy and they're more into like [TS]

00:39:58   no like this goes deeply into something [TS]

00:40:01   about my mind and my psyche and find the [TS]

00:40:04   people I knew in theater in in the late [TS]

00:40:06   eighties were very also very into things [TS]

00:40:08   like psychoanalysis and like having [TS]

00:40:10   uncomfortable because they're kind of [TS]

00:40:12   improv was more like to come in your [TS]

00:40:13   house and ask you the most uncomfortable [TS]

00:40:15   thing in the world which is like kind of [TS]

00:40:17   your deal to I that is not really good [TS]

00:40:20   at that a little bit of that a little [TS]

00:40:22   bit about introduce you to be able to [TS]

00:40:24   this is this is John be careful because [TS]

00:40:26   in the next couple minutes he's going to [TS]

00:40:28   try and find the thing you don't want [TS]

00:40:29   him to know about its most gonna make [TS]

00:40:31   you cry [TS]

00:40:32   it's just so you know you can prevent it [TS]

00:40:35   it's gonna happen I don't you know [TS]

00:40:37   what's coming up the key was that I [TS]

00:40:38   don't try it just is there [TS]

00:40:41   the thing that they are the things that [TS]

00:40:43   they least one other people to know [TS]

00:40:44   about is just there on their face [TS]

00:40:46   it's written on their face TI and and I [TS]

00:40:48   wish that I did not have that that that [TS]

00:40:50   that ability to see I wish I did not [TS]

00:40:53   have that site i wish i could blind that [TS]

00:40:55   I because it its it often is not a [TS]

00:40:59   friend that's interesting though that is [TS]

00:41:02   all very interesting overlap [TS]

00:41:06   yeah right and and my theater sports [TS]

00:41:08   troops especially given that it was at a [TS]

00:41:10   Jesuit college had a lot of those people [TS]

00:41:13   and all of that psycho analysis and all [TS]

00:41:16   of that like hyper kinkiness was tied up [TS]

00:41:21   in their 20-year old wrestling with [TS]

00:41:24   their religion you know they were have [TS]

00:41:27   they were they were a lot of them deeply [TS]

00:41:29   Catholic and really really engaging [TS]

00:41:34   their Catholicism through these you know [TS]

00:41:38   like going into going into a [TS]

00:41:42   psychoanalysis with solecism as your [TS]

00:41:46   guide [TS]

00:41:47   it's a guy's trip that's a lot of doors [TS]

00:41:50   I wouldn't want to open its a heavy trip [TS]

00:41:52   in the thing about the Jesuits and [TS]

00:41:53   Jesuit schools is that that happened [TS]

00:41:56   obviously have we've talked about this [TS]

00:41:58   before half of the population are just [TS]

00:42:00   jocks who are going to own pontiac [TS]

00:42:01   dealerships and they're headed you know [TS]

00:42:04   that's just where they go right for its [TS]

00:42:07   for rich kids but half of the people are [TS]

00:42:09   true intellectuals and Catholicism with [TS]

00:42:12   that intellectual tradition got it gets [TS]

00:42:14   suckled tangled up in people and they uh [TS]

00:42:17   the conversations that we would have in [TS]

00:42:19   the and the journeys we would go on [TS]

00:42:21   because you know its theater sports or [TS]

00:42:23   or improve so we would go on retreats [TS]

00:42:25   together we were how do you rehearse [TS]

00:42:29   improv right you just do it over and [TS]

00:42:31   over and you just get inside one [TS]

00:42:32   another's mind let's it's more like [TS]

00:42:34   rehearsing tennis [TS]

00:42:35   Yeah right right right and we would we [TS]

00:42:38   would you know I would leave my like [TS]

00:42:40   stoner metal party idea and the thing [TS]

00:42:43   was i I never revealed any one of my [TS]

00:42:46   groups i never revealed my membership in [TS]

00:42:49   these groups to one another right I [TS]

00:42:51   never tried to bring friends from one [TS]

00:42:53   place and take him to another place so [TS]

00:42:55   I'd be I'd be like stoner metal land and [TS]

00:43:00   then be like all right you guys see [TS]

00:43:01   later out just like you've got to get it [TS]

00:43:04   going bros and then i would like shake [TS]

00:43:06   it off get outside in the cold air take [TS]

00:43:08   a deep breath check it off walk across [TS]

00:43:10   town and then you know into some [TS]

00:43:16   brightly lit lunch room where all these [TS]

00:43:20   like super earnest intellectual Catholic [TS]

00:43:23   kids were doing theater sports and be [TS]

00:43:25   like hey guys [TS]

00:43:26   now get given ok give me an animal [TS]

00:43:30   alright great you give me a give me a [TS]

00:43:32   u.s. forte was like those of the various [TS]

00:43:35   genres all the different kungfu schools [TS]

00:43:37   of improv I feel like theater sports was [TS]

00:43:39   really was more serious i mean i like to [TS]

00:43:43   think they're serious and like they'll [TS]

00:43:45   close you know famously said you know [TS]

00:43:47   you want to go for like what's real in [TS]

00:43:48   this in the in the moment not don't go [TS]

00:43:51   for the funny and I memory serves [TS]

00:43:53   theater sports takes up the kind of an [TS]

00:43:54   extreme it really does you're not [TS]

00:43:56   supposed to be funny [TS]

00:43:57   don't do bits know and the people that [TS]

00:43:59   the people that would come into the to [TS]

00:44:01   come try out for our group who are like [TS]

00:44:04   wacky wacky it was like nope complete [TS]

00:44:08   order we were all like really trying to [TS]

00:44:11   get every time and cost though they're [TS]

00:44:13   like my arm my niece is a does UCP in [TS]

00:44:19   New York and like you come in and like [TS]

00:44:21   you he paid to take classes that they're [TS]

00:44:23   great you see these great let me know [TS]

00:44:24   question please don't hurt my family but [TS]

00:44:26   like you come in and you pay fees to [TS]

00:44:28   take classes and pretty soon you're [TS]

00:44:29   teaching classes and it's kind of like [TS]

00:44:30   Arthur Murray is this pyramid scheme but [TS]

00:44:34   it's an inverted comedy pyramid or [TS]

00:44:36   triangle and this is what happened to me [TS]

00:44:38   like after the first year our theater [TS]

00:44:40   sports group was really really popular [TS]

00:44:42   in spokane because there wasn't a lot [TS]

00:44:45   going on in Spokane and people were mean [TS]

00:44:47   we were selling out sort of the big [TS]

00:44:48   theater at the college and selling [TS]

00:44:52   tickets to the to the town not just to [TS]

00:44:54   the college and the guy who came into [TS]

00:44:58   town who was 24 and started this theater [TS]

00:45:02   sports group was a coffee gots when you [TS]

00:45:05   were there it was called guts look at [TS]

00:45:07   gonzaga university theater sports [TS]

00:45:09   that's right wow um he started we send [TS]

00:45:13   out so i was in that first year of guts [TS]

00:45:15   and then he this 24 year old guy and I [TS]

00:45:19   think he was from Canada we had a [TS]

00:45:22   meeting at the end of the year and we [TS]

00:45:23   were all just so thrilled with ourselves [TS]

00:45:25   and he was like I have to tell you [TS]

00:45:29   but now that cuts is going now that now [TS]

00:45:33   that my brother this project is often [TS]

00:45:36   and is flying on its own [TS]

00:45:38   I'm leaving you and going on to the next [TS]

00:45:42   place and starting another theater [TS]

00:45:43   sports somewhere else and i'm leaving [TS]

00:45:45   you here to to grow kind of Johnny [TS]

00:45:49   Appleseed Lone Ranger character that's [TS]

00:45:51   right and we were all like what's no [TS]

00:45:53   don't me because we were terrified of of [TS]

00:45:55   changing any one element other sure [TS]

00:45:58   because it was working and it will and [TS]

00:46:01   we were all getting somewhere [TS]

00:46:03   you know and and so he said so he he [TS]

00:46:09   appointed me his successor as like [TS]

00:46:15   leader of guts first first the second [TS]

00:46:19   season and right away I became a monster [TS]

00:46:27   like immediately I I he had like a [TS]

00:46:37   despot in a way in a way i became a [TS]

00:46:41   desperate because he had that he had [TS]

00:46:45   this sort of that the beautiful thing [TS]

00:46:47   which I which I am always trying to [TS]

00:46:49   which I'm very attracted to and other [TS]

00:46:51   people in which i'm always trying to [TS]

00:46:53   discover the secret of which is this [TS]

00:46:55   this open friendly attitude and a [TS]

00:47:01   feeling where people are doing that [TS]

00:47:04   either doing hard work but they but they [TS]

00:47:07   don't resent the work because every time [TS]

00:47:10   they look over at you you are smiling [TS]

00:47:12   specifically at them and it takes a [TS]

00:47:15   certain kind of personality very few [TS]

00:47:17   people can't do that authentically yeah [TS]

00:47:18   it really does take a certain [TS]

00:47:20   personality and it is a kind of magic [TS]

00:47:22   and we he somehow managed to keep that [TS]

00:47:30   initial group of people that started [TS]

00:47:33   this theater sports group [TS]

00:47:35   he kept out he kept people out of it as [TS]

00:47:40   much as he kept us together like part of [TS]

00:47:42   keeping us together was but he curated [TS]

00:47:45   it on [TS]

00:47:46   that's interesting but like I'm having a [TS]

00:47:48   small company right if you got to spend [TS]

00:47:49   all that time with these people that [TS]

00:47:51   chemistry and ability to not necessarily [TS]

00:47:54   get along but field work together [TS]

00:47:57   yeah is important to maintain yeah this [TS]

00:48:00   message was a little culture there was a [TS]

00:48:02   lot of love between us and there were [TS]

00:48:03   people there were intercom petitions [TS]

00:48:05   there are definitely people that were [TS]

00:48:07   that had rivalries but whatever they [TS]

00:48:11   also had a real family vibe and in that [TS]

00:48:13   second year it seemed that the mandate [TS]

00:48:16   that had been handed me was now open it [TS]

00:48:19   up and make it bigger and invite [TS]

00:48:21   everyone in and and turn it into [TS]

00:48:25   something you know to spread the love [TS]

00:48:28   you steve jobs in your john skelly right [TS]

00:48:32   i think that a technical reference and I [TS]

00:48:34   did the John I did the John Sculley [TS]

00:48:35   thing which was i I ran it into the [TS]

00:48:37   ground or try to and and and and I I [TS]

00:48:43   didn't you know we we started having [TS]

00:48:44   auditions for 422 just to bring new [TS]

00:48:48   people in and because it was successful [TS]

00:48:52   it attracted all be attention-starved [TS]

00:48:55   SEO is michael douglas in a chorus line [TS]

00:48:58   on a sitting there just the shadowy [TS]

00:49:02   figure with curls smoke around his head [TS]

00:49:04   and everybody's just gotta hope I get it [TS]

00:49:07   don't forget it got Napoli that's who i [TS]

00:49:09   thought of myself downs but the problem [TS]

00:49:11   was that have choppers well we had [TS]

00:49:13   because we were such an egalitarian [TS]

00:49:15   group before that that our leader had [TS]

00:49:20   been this outsider this guy with the [TS]

00:49:22   mustache who came from canada and and he [TS]

00:49:26   was he was one of these people with a [TS]

00:49:27   big smile who just sort of made you feel [TS]

00:49:29   like it was your idea but kept the thing [TS]

00:49:32   on the rails and all of a sudden I was [TS]

00:49:35   sitting in the back of the room with the [TS]

00:49:36   beret shrouded in cigarette smoke going [TS]

00:49:38   next next and these people can handle x3 [TS]

00:49:43   i want to i want to be in theater sports [TS]

00:49:45   I [TS]

00:49:46   I was meant for the stage and it's like [TS]

00:49:48   next and the other the other people in [TS]

00:49:52   my original group were they didn't they [TS]

00:49:57   they felt like what I was doing was not [TS]

00:49:59   in the spirit of of the magic and I was [TS]

00:50:04   like I'm trying to preserve the magic by [TS]

00:50:06   keeping all these dorks out of our out [TS]

00:50:09   of our special place and they were like [TS]

00:50:11   no we need to have we need to invite [TS]

00:50:13   everyone in and so I was like all right [TS]

00:50:15   well fine then we'll how about these six [TS]

00:50:17   guys they seem like you know they could [TS]

00:50:19   join the group or whatever and they were [TS]

00:50:21   like yeah and then those six people just [TS]

00:50:24   like came in and and we're doing jazz [TS]

00:50:27   hands all over the place and I was like [TS]

00:50:29   no jazz hands know and have eventually [TS]

00:50:32   let us just cut to the chase eventually [TS]

00:50:35   I was deposed there was a was a coup [TS]

00:50:38   there was a coup i arrived at a meeting [TS]

00:50:41   that was that had obviously already know [TS]

00:50:46   you're really good at knowing when [TS]

00:50:47   you're walking into an intervention [TS]

00:50:49   I've been two years you've gotten really [TS]

00:50:50   good at that yeah but I'm I know what's [TS]

00:50:52   gonna happen now [TS]

00:50:53   at the time I had not had not had so [TS]

00:50:56   many interventions yet and i walked into [TS]

00:50:59   the room and I was like huh [TS]

00:51:00   everybody's here already soon and it [TS]

00:51:03   seems like everybody's all now you know [TS]

00:51:06   I walked in and of course conversation [TS]

00:51:07   stopped and everybody turned and looked [TS]

00:51:09   at me and I was like oh this is going to [TS]

00:51:11   be sitting in your chair and so you know [TS]

00:51:15   it was i was given that i was given that [TS]

00:51:17   choice we would like you to just be just [TS]

00:51:23   be a member of the troupe again [TS]

00:51:25   oh boy and not be our fearless leader [TS]

00:51:28   are annually the american apparel guy [TS]

00:51:31   but luckily I've you go buddy time for [TS]

00:51:35   you to go but the end so the leadership [TS]

00:51:37   is going to switch over into a [TS]

00:51:39   democratic form where they're going to [TS]

00:51:43   be four leaders how what could possibly [TS]

00:51:46   go wrong and i was like i would rather [TS]

00:51:49   burn [TS]

00:51:51   I would rather burn i would rather burn [TS]

00:51:54   this theater with all of us in it [TS]

00:51:56   wouldn't be a member of this garbage [TS]

00:52:01   this garbage arrangement and so I [TS]

00:52:06   stormed I ran out into the snow and some [TS]

00:52:10   and one of the girls chased me for chase [TS]

00:52:13   me out into the field chain shame and I [TS]

00:52:17   think it's not one I need a job what's [TS]

00:52:19   the occupation ok pizza at one point I [TS]

00:52:23   might have even tripped in the snow [TS]

00:52:25   no John and I fell in the snow and yet [TS]

00:52:29   the end and she she came and and try to [TS]

00:52:37   console me it was all very dramatic but [TS]

00:52:39   we were we were artists we as we were [TS]

00:52:42   theater artists and then then I stayed [TS]

00:52:46   away and then the final show of the [TS]

00:52:50   season of guts year too [TS]

00:52:54   i watch the show from high up in the [TS]

00:52:58   rafters above the victim if you like a [TS]

00:53:02   family over exactly like that happen and [TS]

00:53:04   at one point during during a scene [TS]

00:53:07   the girl who had chased me out into the [TS]

00:53:10   snow my love interest on guts was doing [TS]

00:53:14   was doing a scene and somebody said you [TS]

00:53:16   know like give me an animal and it was [TS]

00:53:20   like Amy goal and she looked up and you [TS]

00:53:23   know pointed up in the middle of her of [TS]

00:53:25   a scene like there goes the eagle and [TS]

00:53:27   she pointed at me and then she saw me [TS]

00:53:29   oh no she saw me hanging up in the ropes [TS]

00:53:32   and and she looked and she made eye [TS]

00:53:35   contact with me and big smile and i [TS]

00:53:38   smiled down to her from five feet five [TS]

00:53:40   stories up and it was just like my life [TS]

00:53:44   really is a movie you slugged back to [TS]

00:53:48   her organ room and it's my role the [TS]

00:53:55   suite j and the rafter and i was like [TS]

00:53:58   i'm i'm a member of no group everybody [TS]

00:54:01   this dog and at me [TS]

00:54:06   there's own don't know I'm just thinking [TS]

00:54:09   of this now but and I something a few [TS]

00:54:12   weeks ago turns out this story about [TS]

00:54:14   where clicks are more likely to form and [TS]

00:54:18   whether or not likely to form and it [TS]

00:54:20   turns out part being that there aren't [TS]

00:54:21   nearly as many clicks in like high [TS]

00:54:23   schools as people would have you believe [TS]

00:54:24   in the changes on this based on the size [TS]

00:54:26   of the high school but you don't have to [TS]

00:54:28   say there's this part of me that feels [TS]

00:54:29   like so much of my idea [TS]

00:54:32   this is so obvious and so don't but it's [TS]

00:54:34   so much of what I think something like [TS]

00:54:36   high school was supposed to look like I [TS]

00:54:38   think was kind of largely based on John [TS]

00:54:41   Hughes movies or things you know the [TS]

00:54:43   things that movies that became that [TS]

00:54:44   would be preceded it [TS]

00:54:45   you know that they're real or even you [TS]

00:54:47   know she treating the outsiders or [TS]

00:54:48   whatever but I really got this idea of [TS]

00:54:51   the different groups and things when you [TS]

00:54:54   look back in retrospect there's a lot [TS]

00:54:56   more subtle subtlety to it then you [TS]

00:54:57   realize that the time you know that's [TS]

00:55:00   why is that again i can show like freaks [TS]

00:55:01   and geeks really captures that really [TS]

00:55:03   captures the idea that now you may be [TS]

00:55:05   striving to have these cooler friends [TS]

00:55:06   but you still got your left school [TS]

00:55:07   friends and and that I even that can [TS]

00:55:10   change like suddenly your friend gets a [TS]

00:55:11   growth spurt and becomes a sports star [TS]

00:55:13   or something there's always ways with [TS]

00:55:14   it's much more fluid than I remember it [TS]

00:55:17   seeming at the time it all felt very [TS]

00:55:18   carved in stone and we're retrospect I [TS]

00:55:21   realize what a clusterfuck the whole [TS]

00:55:22   thing was for everybody [TS]

00:55:24   well and tribulations you know I'm [TS]

00:55:26   saying that makes absolutely absolutely [TS]

00:55:28   and in in high school at my high school [TS]

00:55:32   experience was was was very John qz my [TS]

00:55:37   college experience was where i got can [TS]

00:55:39   make up very confused and I and I and I [TS]

00:55:43   really didn't understand where I [TS]

00:55:45   belonged in fact the college friends [TS]

00:55:47   that I have still the the people I knew [TS]

00:55:50   in college that are still friends of [TS]

00:55:52   mine were the guys that I [TS]

00:55:58   but I wasn't friends with in college [TS]

00:56:00   really or or was it was it was a it was [TS]

00:56:04   very fraught that you know because it [TS]

00:56:06   because i was in school in spokane there [TS]

00:56:07   was a whole component of the people that [TS]

00:56:10   came to that school who were from [TS]

00:56:12   Montana and North Dakota and Idaho who [TS]

00:56:16   were mostly Catholics all Catholics um [TS]

00:56:21   and by Alaskan standards they were they [TS]

00:56:27   were clearly wild kids right they were [TS]

00:56:29   from these towns these tiny Western [TS]

00:56:33   towns where you would drive for seven [TS]

00:56:37   hours to get to buildings like oh we [TS]

00:56:42   gotta get you know we need a new part [TS]

00:56:44   for the tractor well we got everybody in [TS]

00:56:46   the truck and throw a couple of hay [TS]

00:56:50   bales in the back for the kids and then [TS]

00:56:52   we're going to drive for seven hours to [TS]

00:56:53   get to buildings [TS]

00:56:55   I mean that will do a job on you as a [TS]

00:56:59   kid for sure and you know its water [TS]

00:57:02   these 11 horse towns right like a-a-a-a [TS]

00:57:05   western town with a main street makes um [TS]

00:57:08   you have such different expectations and [TS]

00:57:11   such different [TS]

00:57:12   what's the word I'm looking for but it's [TS]

00:57:14   like if you you know i remember the [TS]

00:57:16   first in the first several times I went [TS]

00:57:18   to Manhattan immediately experiencing [TS]

00:57:20   experiencing having that feeling of hate [TS]

00:57:25   that work contributes experienced [TS]

00:57:27   something i had killers fire stop saying [TS]

00:57:32   uh-huh um anyway I was heavily impacted [TS]

00:57:35   / that feeling of options iety like we [TS]

00:57:42   over the village voice and you know [TS]

00:57:44   where as in back in Florida you plan [TS]

00:57:46   ahead you know but what band you would [TS]

00:57:49   see three weeks from now and you open up [TS]

00:57:51   a paper and like just in the village [TS]

00:57:53   voice like just within walking distance [TS]

00:57:54   of where you are there's like 10 of your [TS]

00:57:56   favorite bands playing right and any the [TS]

00:57:58   result of that is if you're like me is [TS]

00:58:00   just going to just sit here and if you [TS]

00:58:03   watch golden girls or whatever right [TS]

00:58:05   your brain turns to mush [TS]

00:58:06   yeah yeah and I mean I wonder if is like [TS]

00:58:08   people did that really nice really feel [TS]

00:58:10   like the big city for somebody who's [TS]

00:58:11   used to drive into Billings so I went [TS]

00:58:13   back with so anyway these guys I thought [TS]

00:58:15   of them as the Montana boys and they all [TS]

00:58:19   had grey cowboy boots they all sort of [TS]

00:58:23   dip snuff at is at a distance you would [TS]

00:58:27   think that they were just pics just [TS]

00:58:30   ignorant dummies but then you would meet [TS]

00:58:32   them and you realize like oh shit this [TS]

00:58:34   is this kid is the smartest kid from his [TS]

00:58:36   town he is the kid from whatever town [TS]

00:58:40   that got to spokane to go to college and [TS]

00:58:45   that they can he achieve not to be [TS]

00:58:48   unkind but he achieved escape velocity [TS]

00:58:50   in a way that must seem impossible to a [TS]

00:58:52   lot of other people [TS]

00:58:53   yeah astonishing and so these guys were [TS]

00:58:55   wise and they were they were sharp only [TS]

00:59:01   have like somewhat grateful [TS]

00:59:03   uh yeah well and also but also like [TS]

00:59:05   again coming from a pretty religious [TS]

00:59:08   background and from a very small [TS]

00:59:10   initially very small world in which [TS]

00:59:12   spokane was like big big world and um [TS]

00:59:16   and so there was a lot of culture clash [TS]

00:59:21   between us initially because even coming [TS]

00:59:24   from Alaska I was much more worldly and [TS]

00:59:27   honestly their initial take on me was [TS]

00:59:32   that I was a fag right i mean you know I [TS]

00:59:35   showed up in school and I was like [TS]

00:59:37   everybody come on let's go away and I [TS]

00:59:41   was wearing a bowtie whatever they were [TS]

00:59:42   just like no thank you [TS]

00:59:44   this guy is a queer and it was only [TS]

00:59:49   through you know is only through my [TS]

00:59:51   willingness to throw myself through a [TS]

00:59:53   plate-glass window over time but they [TS]

00:59:56   were like huh [TS]

00:59:57   she's a pretty rowdy queer [TS]

00:59:57   she's a pretty rowdy queer [TS]

01:00:00   like that's right rowdy clear that is [TS]

01:00:03   pretty much you got that right cowboy I [TS]

01:00:05   second that's my drag name rally bowtie [TS]

01:00:08   spin and so it ends up now that we're [TS]

01:00:12   really good i'm still really good [TS]

01:00:13   buddies with those guys because what [TS]

01:00:16   because our relationship evolved over [TS]

01:00:18   time in a way that they had a lot of [TS]

01:00:21   suspicions about me and I had a ton of I [TS]

01:00:23   thought I knew I thought I knew them to [TS]

01:00:25   it that they were just hick Republican [TS]

01:00:27   right you know nobody's and now I I like [TS]

01:00:33   they're the ones that i still am close [TS]

01:00:35   well and i have to i had that weird time [TS]

01:00:37   at one point during college we went I [TS]

01:00:40   went on a road trip with these guys to [TS]

01:00:42   Sun Valley a car full of the Montana [TS]

01:00:46   boys and they were bringing me along [TS]

01:00:48   kind of like like a Nazca ya like hey [TS]

01:00:52   we're gonna guess what we're all going [TS]

01:00:55   to Sun Valley and we're taking the [TS]

01:00:56   career [TS]

01:00:57   what's that what could happen anything [TS]

01:01:00   could happen [TS]

01:01:01   we got to Sun Valley one of these guys [TS]

01:01:03   had an uncle who lived in sun valley who [TS]

01:01:06   took us into his house he's one of these [TS]

01:01:10   guys walking around the house smoking a [TS]

01:01:11   cigar tricks into the house and he had a [TS]

01:01:13   walk-in safe full of machine guns [TS]

01:01:17   it was like you guys want to see my guns [TS]

01:01:19   and I was like yes and he what we walked [TS]

01:01:22   through the bedroom and there's a vault [TS]

01:01:23   like above a fucking volt and the door [TS]

01:01:28   opens and you can walk in and is not [TS]

01:01:30   just a heavy locked door it's like a [TS]

01:01:32   solid of room an impenetrable room it's [TS]

01:01:35   basically a I felt a bank vault or or [TS]

01:01:38   what a panic room [TS]

01:01:40   yeah but it's for that there's an [TS]

01:01:41   arsenal in there and that was just the [TS]

01:01:43   one that was just the one that was just [TS]

01:01:45   the aspect of his house that he was [TS]

01:01:46   willing to show his nephews college [TS]

01:01:48   friends like she didn't see but as part [TS]

01:01:53   of this road trip we went to we went to [TS]

01:01:55   Butte Montana which um which you could [TS]

01:01:59   charitably described as the asshole of [TS]

01:02:01   the universe right i mean it's pretty [TS]

01:02:04   bad there Richard he's elected [TS]

01:02:06   hey i'm gerry did I think you did [TS]

01:02:09   that's a Richard Hugo a reference my [TS]

01:02:12   second finger at at at one minute [TS]

01:02:15   exactly one hour exactly a rigid you [TS]

01:02:18   know and what I want to let you know [TS]

01:02:20   it's about an hour so don't start [TS]

01:02:21   talking about politics i'll mention mr. [TS]

01:02:22   Hugh ok alright that'll be our comes [TS]

01:02:24   anyway you got that you got the gun safe [TS]

01:02:26   you'll see it as guys will go we go to [TS]

01:02:28   butte and we go to visit one of these [TS]

01:02:30   guys is housed in butte and a lot of [TS]

01:02:34   them were from Butte which you know it's [TS]

01:02:36   not know I wouldn't call it a big town [TS]

01:02:37   but it's a big town in an apartment [TS]

01:02:38   government anyway this kid was from one [TS]

01:02:42   of the best families in butte and their [TS]

01:02:47   home was a beautiful home like with [TS]

01:02:52   columns columns like stone columns as I [TS]

01:02:59   felt like old money old money right [TS]

01:03:01   gracious living room and a ver and the [TS]

01:03:06   family very elegant family and likes [TS]

01:03:10   that maybe there was silver money there [TS]

01:03:13   and yet this gracious home which in San [TS]

01:03:19   Francisco would be a 40 million dollar [TS]

01:03:22   home is two blocks from the Berkeley pit [TS]

01:03:27   in downtown butte downtown Butte which I [TS]

01:03:33   still believe an enterprising software [TS]

01:03:36   person could buy the entire town like [TS]

01:03:40   the whole place just has a feeling of [TS]

01:03:43   like a bomb went off in the center of [TS]

01:03:47   the town which it did in the form of [TS]

01:03:50   that silver mine and and the this [TS]

01:03:54   contrast of like oh this this guy that I [TS]

01:03:58   thought was just kind of like a western [TS]

01:04:00   town dingaling [TS]

01:04:01   is is from this incredible place this [TS]

01:04:06   like beautiful this elegant gracious [TS]

01:04:09   family in a gracious home in a town of a [TS]

01:04:12   few thousand people really perched on [TS]

01:04:16   the lip of the world and i have no way [TS]

01:04:20   of understanding where he's from [TS]

01:04:24   right you know like I think there's [TS]

01:04:26   there was no way for me to really get my [TS]

01:04:30   head around like just the contrasts just [TS]

01:04:34   the study in contrasts of that one kids [TS]

01:04:37   experience let alone that his uncle had [TS]

01:04:40   a safe full of machine guns but you know [TS]

01:04:43   it's fine yesterday I heard just a [TS]

01:04:45   little bit of Jesse thorn interviewing a [TS]

01:04:49   what's-his-name Offerman you know Ron [TS]

01:04:52   Swanson oh yeah Keith Keith Keith [TS]

01:04:55   nothing is it Keith Offerman now keep [TS]

01:04:58   the read the sports guy i don't know i [TS]

01:05:01   mean Ron Swanson from the curse curse [TS]

01:05:03   his name is a million Ron Swanson and [TS]

01:05:06   here down Nick Offerman Gary Gary Nick [TS]

01:05:10   Gary he seems interviewing McGary this [TS]

01:05:12   kind of famous he talked about how he's [TS]

01:05:14   going out like there's this rep for [TS]

01:05:15   being you know there's this manly man [TS]

01:05:17   guy and yeah she got a mustache right [TS]

01:05:19   he's the one exactly looks like an angry [TS]

01:05:20   cat and he said he was raised and like [TS]

01:05:23   rural ish i guess Illinois and long [TS]

01:05:25   story short looks like you know [TS]

01:05:26   everybody's talking like it's pretty [TS]

01:05:28   funny to him because you know he yes he [TS]

01:05:31   does own and have employees to do [TS]

01:05:34   woodworking like he actually does you [TS]

01:05:36   know make furniture and stuff [TS]

01:05:38   many is like a manly man but also like [TS]

01:05:40   he's the only one in his family that [TS]

01:05:41   went to school for theater and took two [TS]

01:05:44   semesters of ballet so you know it's the [TS]

01:05:46   kind of thing where like I guess you're [TS]

01:05:47   trying to say is that alright we're not [TS]

01:05:50   he's a rowdy where g is probably jump [TS]

01:05:53   through share plate-glass windows but i [TS]

01:05:56   think part of it like getting in this [TS]

01:05:57   just shows you how how productive i am I [TS]

01:05:59   guess but sometimes it seems like except [TS]

01:06:02   for the most tolerable people in your [TS]

01:06:05   life you will have like a 1-bit [TS]

01:06:07   description for almost everybody will be [TS]

01:06:09   this 11 bit flips and you go oh he's a [TS]

01:06:12   football jock [TS]

01:06:14   or you know she's a theater nerd or you [TS]

01:06:17   know he's he's a nerdy programmer or [TS]

01:06:20   whatever and so must i think that's in [TS]

01:06:23   order to survive you know with many many [TS]

01:06:26   people around us like the older we get [TS]

01:06:27   the more were instantly making one big [TS]

01:06:29   decisions about people going oh you fit [TS]

01:06:31   in this box you fit in that box you put [TS]

01:06:32   in that box and there may be people [TS]

01:06:34   where you get one bit plus a little bit [TS]

01:06:36   of an axis where you go like oh like you [TS]

01:06:40   know he's he's a and I get it he's a [TS]

01:06:42   manly man actor but he also has taken [TS]

01:06:44   ballet haha isn't that interesting but I [TS]

01:06:46   think what happens is when you get too [TS]

01:06:47   much past that one bit thing especially [TS]

01:06:49   with strangers you quickly go from I get [TS]

01:06:52   you because you're in this box to you [TS]

01:06:53   are weird and weird is when you don't [TS]

01:06:56   understand what feels like a conflict [TS]

01:06:59   about to into your apprehension of [TS]

01:07:02   somebody if you look at John Roderick [TS]

01:07:04   and go like wow he sure he you eat he [TS]

01:07:07   drinks a lot he dresses like a preppy he [TS]

01:07:09   does theater sports and he was really [TS]

01:07:11   trying to like make it with this girl in [TS]

01:07:13   a turquoise belt like you know that just [TS]

01:07:15   makes you weird because there's not one [TS]

01:07:17   narrative that runs through all that [TS]

01:07:18   apart from the fact that it was you that [TS]

01:07:20   this isn't insightful but i think that [TS]

01:07:22   that I think the I feel like the way you [TS]

01:07:25   get raised in most mainstream American [TS]

01:07:26   culture is to quickly go from 0 I get [TS]

01:07:29   your one bit too like oh you're weird [TS]

01:07:31   because I can't rock the multitude [TS]

01:07:34   within you [TS]

01:07:34   yeah well that's why i asked what if you [TS]

01:07:39   are not a member of the tech community [TS]

01:07:41   now if you are a member of the post tech [TS]

01:07:44   community now just a quick what [TS]

01:07:46   community are you would you describe [TS]

01:07:50   yourself as most a member of my used to [TS]

01:07:54   think of myself as a blogger i have [TS]

01:07:56   thought of myself as a podcaster and [TS]

01:07:58   what's interesting or useful about those [TS]

01:08:00   is it both describes like what I do what [TS]

01:08:04   I like and who I want to hang out with [TS]

01:08:06   which i think is what a lot of those [TS]

01:08:07   kinds of names means golden lager it [TS]

01:08:09   doesn't get used to these two kind of [TS]

01:08:10   mean something because like I had a [TS]

01:08:11   pretty popular website and I knew people [TS]

01:08:13   have popular websites and fucking cares [TS]

01:08:15   but that's that real i think it's still [TS]

01:08:17   true today kinda with podcasting i'm not [TS]

01:08:19   super into that i'm not at all into the [TS]

01:08:21   technical aspects of it [TS]

01:08:22   I'm find that fatiguing but I really do [TS]

01:08:25   enjoy the shandra [TS]

01:08:26   I like the people who do that by and [TS]

01:08:28   large and I don't like packet loss now [TS]

01:08:31   see that's that's the kind of quality [TS]

01:08:32   she got to actually worried about you i [TS]

01:08:34   got a new modem [TS]

01:08:35   oh really tell you about it later yeah [TS]

01:08:37   three times faster than the other one [TS]

01:08:38   can't wait to hear about it might need [TS]

01:08:40   to talk about talk about that offline [TS]

01:08:42   and now what about you because you seem [TS]

01:08:44   em now we'll full but you seem like [TS]

01:08:49   you're pretty well and you've heard me [TS]

01:08:51   say before the one reason i admire Bob [TS]

01:08:53   Dylan and I'm new young you name it [TS]

01:08:56   either the kind of people who are like [TS]

01:08:57   as soon as somebody put a label on them [TS]

01:09:00   they're like oh you have no idea and [TS]

01:09:01   then go into something else I i really [TS]

01:09:03   admire that even with self-defeating I [TS]

01:09:05   really admire people who are reluctant [TS]

01:09:07   to be labeled by others and that seems [TS]

01:09:09   to me a big narrative for you is you [TS]

01:09:11   don't like people telling you you're a [TS]

01:09:12   fan [TS]

01:09:13   you don't like people telling you that [TS]

01:09:14   your your this or that [TS]

01:09:16   so what hard sometimes be part of a [TS]

01:09:18   community because you seemed resistant [TS]

01:09:20   to commit to one community [TS]

01:09:21   yeah I i and and and particularly [TS]

01:09:24   because arm because I always well yeah [TS]

01:09:29   after three days or five days with any [TS]

01:09:32   community of people i always go [TS]

01:09:37   ok guys the guys get out of here see you [TS]

01:09:40   later and then I go in there and I do [TS]

01:09:42   some and I and I join another community [TS]

01:09:44   for a little while and you know them [TS]

01:09:48   there's this experience I've had in [TS]

01:09:49   middle age of being embraced by the [TS]

01:09:51   Nerds has been the the most because it [TS]

01:09:58   because they're the Nerds embraced me in [TS]

01:10:01   a way that was that was very different [TS]

01:10:05   than indie rock like indie rock and rock [TS]

01:10:09   and roll don't really embrace you [TS]

01:10:12   or at least they didn't i didn't feel [TS]

01:10:14   embraced exactly who you know like indie [TS]

01:10:17   rock and rock and roll are things that [TS]

01:10:20   you try to gain admission to and every [TS]

01:10:23   step of the way you feel like every time [TS]

01:10:26   you feel start to get a little [TS]

01:10:28   comfortable like AI kind of belong here [TS]

01:10:30   but unless you're some kind of like [TS]

01:10:33   doing outsider art and getting name [TS]

01:10:35   checked in [TS]

01:10:36   interviews with rock stars it's [TS]

01:10:38   difficult to say you know unless you are [TS]

01:10:41   really being propped up by the industry [TS]

01:10:43   and the money's in that industry is [TS]

01:10:46   difficult to say you've been embraced by [TS]

01:10:47   the community [TS]

01:10:48   yeah right or or I mean if your John Doe [TS]

01:10:51   who and everywhere you go you just feel [TS]

01:10:54   like every every rock and roll situation [TS]

01:10:58   you walk into you a s it you feel like [TS]

01:11:02   you belong right i mean Debbie Harry [TS]

01:11:05   also helps the heat doesn't mind if you [TS]

01:11:07   don't know who he is [TS]

01:11:08   it's like a wonderful quality of here [TS]

01:11:10   and the amazing thing about John Doe is [TS]

01:11:12   if you have no idea who he is he looks [TS]

01:11:15   amazing right i mean you know where's [TS]

01:11:18   he's genuinely super nice super nice and [TS]

01:11:21   and like so John Doe everywhere he goes [TS]

01:11:24   he talking about when I see him to talk [TS]

01:11:25   to my daughter way more than he talks to [TS]

01:11:26   me of course right that's understandable [TS]

01:11:29   how do you feel like going to do that [TS]

01:11:30   listen to this record in a way he's like [TS]

01:11:32   the sam shepard of rock'n'roll right [TS]

01:11:35   right right he's he's just these keys [TS]

01:11:38   from another era and he any and so he [TS]

01:11:41   belongs that I never felt when I would [TS]

01:11:43   walk into rock and roll seen it and I [TS]

01:11:47   feel like the that's something just it [TS]

01:11:49   inherent in them in in the machine of [TS]

01:11:53   rock-and-roll it's not meant to it's not [TS]

01:11:56   meant to embrace everybody you it's it's [TS]

01:11:58   an aspiration [TS]

01:11:59   yes but with the nerds I was like no no [TS]

01:12:03   thank you no thank you [TS]

01:12:05   you know like walking through an airport [TS]

01:12:06   and the harlingen friendagenda beyond [TS]

01:12:08   you [TS]

01:12:09   ya like like don't think you get it [TS]

01:12:11   thank you and yet they were relentless [TS]

01:12:14   and eventually I was like oh I guess I i [TS]

01:12:16   am i am here i have my member of this is [TS]

01:12:20   a great way to think of it I have so [TS]

01:12:21   many fuckin beads on me now it's a [TS]

01:12:23   little disingenuous to claim that i'm [TS]

01:12:25   not a part of this gang but you know [TS]

01:12:31   every week i have three or four [TS]

01:12:33   gatherings even in seattle where I'm [TS]

01:12:37   with a group of people that I consider [TS]

01:12:39   my friends there's five or six of us we [TS]

01:12:41   have a long history together we sit and [TS]

01:12:43   talk about the old days and we make [TS]

01:12:45   plans for something for the next thing [TS]

01:12:47   that we're going to do [TS]

01:12:48   and those people do not know really [TS]

01:12:51   anything about the people that i'm going [TS]

01:12:54   to go visit next and have that same [TS]

01:12:56   experience with so so I still am a [TS]

01:13:01   person that is extra community and that [TS]

01:13:06   the the community whatever community it [TS]

01:13:09   is i'm a member of I'm kind of the only [TS]

01:13:10   member and that's not really at the [TS]

01:13:15   description of a community really now so [TS]

01:13:18   it's a yeah and and and and I wonder [TS]

01:13:21   about it i wonder what's next and I and [TS]

01:13:23   I and I wonder because of this idea of [TS]

01:13:26   the artists and of the fact that i want [TS]

01:13:29   to make art and I want it to be and I [TS]

01:13:35   and I'm comfortable with the fact that [TS]

01:13:37   I'm not a genius but I want my art to be [TS]

01:13:41   good and the and that was a problem for [TS]

01:13:46   years because I what I wanted to be [TS]

01:13:48   initially was a genius and when you [TS]

01:13:51   realize that you want to be recognized [TS]

01:13:53   as such [TS]

01:13:54   yeah right and just to make the thing [TS]

01:13:56   that you're there to make and have [TS]

01:13:58   people be like this is fucking genius [TS]

01:13:59   and when you make the thing that you're [TS]

01:14:01   there to make people go through that's [TS]

01:14:02   pretty good what else you got [TS]

01:14:04   yeah and you realize like oh ok I'm not [TS]

01:14:07   a genius is very much how it is today [TS]

01:14:09   what else you got right i mean you know [TS]

01:14:11   what I mean it isn't like you can spend [TS]

01:14:13   two years working on your latest magnum [TS]

01:14:15   opus and then right on that like more [TS]

01:14:18   and more it's like what what do you what [TS]

01:14:19   are you doing wait on the last three [TS]

01:14:20   months [TS]

01:14:21   yeah that was pretty good that thing [TS]

01:14:22   they made one time I was pretty good uh [TS]

01:14:24   what else you got anything no I'm fine i [TS]

01:14:26   like stuff on your 345 [TS]

01:14:28   so what would your next likely today [TS]

01:14:30   wait a minute you're supposed to be [TS]

01:14:31   lionizing something I did ten years ago [TS]

01:14:33   but the challenge and it seems that you [TS]

01:14:35   know this is this is it handicapped me [TS]

01:14:37   but I'm starting to recognize that that [TS]

01:14:39   really that puts a lot more emphasis on [TS]

01:14:43   the work you know and it and it makes it [TS]

01:14:47   so that you have to really work hard to [TS]

01:14:51   make the best thing you that you can [TS]

01:14:53   and there is a line somewhere and I feel [TS]

01:14:56   like I'm on it where if you do lazy work [TS]

01:15:01   then what you're making just doesn't get [TS]

01:15:05   over the hump [TS]

01:15:07   if I if I rule and yourselves but [TS]

01:15:09   there's also the sirens call and i don't [TS]

01:15:11   want to sound cynical or like I'm being [TS]

01:15:13   critical which I probably a.m. but the [TS]

01:15:15   other thing to be careful of we joked a [TS]

01:15:17   few weeks ago about like oh you know [TS]

01:15:18   make sure you got a big philosophy for [TS]

01:15:19   what you can do before ever fuckin make [TS]

01:15:21   anything I mean the problem is that it [TS]

01:15:23   with it's become extremely easy to have [TS]

01:15:26   a community around anything which on the [TS]

01:15:28   face of its really that's a great thing [TS]

01:15:30   it's better than the other of the you [TS]

01:15:32   know opposite but you could and I'm [TS]

01:15:35   always you know having fun with the [TS]

01:15:37   seduction community those guys that [TS]

01:15:39   those kinds of groups but you can find [TS]

01:15:40   yourself extremely involved in a very [TS]

01:15:42   unproductive community [TS]

01:15:43   I especially if it's something like a as [TS]

01:15:46   i like to say Facebook group about [TS]

01:15:47   creative productivity like that that's a [TS]

01:15:49   that's a really interesting community [TS]

01:15:51   and every second you spend with them is [TS]

01:15:52   taking away from what your nominally [TS]

01:15:54   there to be doing my research every time [TS]

01:15:56   you're sitting there talking about how [TS]

01:15:57   to make chix so you can bag and eight or [TS]

01:15:59   whatever like you're sitting in a [TS]

01:16:01   fucking computer talking to other men [TS]

01:16:03   have included the seduction community [TS]

01:16:04   but the fuck is wrong with you [TS]

01:16:06   absolutely could you know you know that [TS]

01:16:09   you don't know about negging no action [TS]

01:16:13   community [TS]

01:16:14   I don't know what seduction community is [TS]

01:16:16   not as I feel I feel so much like I know [TS]

01:16:20   everything that's that somebody is going [TS]

01:16:22   to say and then you come out with [TS]

01:16:24   something that I just have no not [TS]

01:16:25   nothing that you just said has i have i [TS]

01:16:27   heard anything about you should sign up [TS]

01:16:30   for the forms seduction to me what you [TS]

01:16:32   have 10,000 times officially a salami [TS]

01:16:34   commander making chicks [TS]

01:16:38   um yeah iiii iiii think about the [TS]

01:16:43   ramones right who just did the same [TS]

01:16:45   thing over and over for 40 years and [TS]

01:16:49   that that thing was so great that but it [TS]

01:16:53   was just they could just keep doing it [TS]

01:16:55   and I and everybody wishes they were [TS]

01:16:57   still alive so it was so elemental that [TS]

01:16:59   the less they added to it the better god [TS]

01:17:01   right right and I mean even liking [TS]

01:17:03   adding adding one or two minor chords is [TS]

01:17:05   fine but we do [TS]

01:17:06   need a rock opera what we love about [TS]

01:17:07   this is the two minutes of it now [TS]

01:17:09   yeah two minutes and like don't don't [TS]

01:17:12   get fucking to Petty and don't change [TS]

01:17:14   her clothes and don't really just makin [TS]

01:17:18   this song is a minute and 34 seconds all [TS]

01:17:20   right and the last four seconds is fade [TS]

01:17:23   out now I want to have something to do [TS]

01:17:24   now i want to sniff some glue now we [TS]

01:17:26   have something to do [TS]

01:17:27   123456 and then play a different part [TS]

01:17:33   make the first part that I don't usually [TS]

01:17:35   do well so but so uh I just feel I feel [TS]

01:17:40   increasingly like the group that i want [TS]

01:17:43   to be a member of the the but the the [TS]

01:17:47   real like culture or community that I [TS]

01:17:51   want to be a part of is the community of [TS]

01:17:53   people who are making good things that [TS]

01:17:56   that no matter what you think about them [TS]

01:17:58   or no matter what you think and and [TS]

01:18:01   there and there's no pretense that it is [TS]

01:18:03   that it's genius but that that you look [TS]

01:18:07   at it and you go that is fucking [TS]

01:18:09   well-made good job right [TS]

01:18:12   um and that is a and that is a community [TS]

01:18:17   that I guess is like across all all [TS]

01:18:22   spheres and you don't you don't have [TS]

01:18:24   meetings [TS]

01:18:25   that's one of those internal ad-hoc [TS]

01:18:27   backstage before you use the show you [TS]

01:18:30   say oh yeah I like your stuff to all the [TS]

01:18:31   great shows but you might actually mean [TS]

01:18:33   it because you go out [TS]

01:18:34   fuck you did that thing that was you [TS]

01:18:36   like wow I mean that's my greatest [TS]

01:18:38   reaction you can get from somebody can't [TS]

01:18:39   believe you did that [TS]

01:18:40   right right and and it's not it's not [TS]

01:18:43   theirs meetings in dues and buttons and [TS]

01:18:45   shit there's no you don't arrive you [TS]

01:18:46   don't get to stay there [TS]

01:18:48   yeah I don't commute very informal you [TS]

01:18:50   don't sit around every saturday either [TS]

01:18:53   it is very informal and it's kinda where [TS]

01:18:55   I where I have felt I've been living a [TS]

01:18:59   little bit on the phone that on the the [TS]

01:19:02   fringe of you for a long time and and so [TS]

01:19:07   yeah so this year I really hope to [TS]

01:19:14   to focus on on that and and focus less [TS]

01:19:17   on on feeling excluded and more on just [TS]

01:19:23   making a place for myself in and the [TS]

01:19:26   community of a of my aspirations [TS]

01:19:30   it's pretty good you make that face book [TS]

01:19:33   group between John the community John's [TS]

01:19:36   aspirations [TS]

01:19:37   listen the community of John's [TS]

01:19:38   aspirations come on over we won't [TS]

01:19:41   negatively chicks there is no rank of [TS]

01:19:44   salami commander you get the mtn8 if you [TS]

01:19:48   if you get to be an eight on that that [TS]

01:19:50   community even your wingman [TS]

01:19:52   he who are you could you get you get 24 [TS]

01:19:57   cockblock experience points [TS]

01:20:01   happy January 1901 a good day [TS]