Roderick on the Line

Ep. 137: "Arsenal of Civilization"


00:00:00   this episode of Roderick on the line is [TS]

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00:00:18   [Music] [TS]

00:00:23   hello hi John Admiral mmm yeah I'm [TS]

00:00:27   Merlin how's it going [TS]

00:00:34   we got to put that on a shirt i wonder [TS]

00:00:37   how you spell it lots of peas and bees [TS]

00:00:40   things are things are good things are [TS]

00:00:46   good [TS]

00:00:47   it's a i have not been sleeping enough [TS]

00:00:51   oh dear I stay up late and then I wake [TS]

00:00:54   up early and that's the that's a bad [TS]

00:00:57   combo [TS]

00:00:58   uh-huh that leads to some five hours of [TS]

00:01:01   sleep pneus uh-huh five hours of sleep [TS]

00:01:05   and then several days in a row and then [TS]

00:01:08   pretty soon you're like huh I wonder why [TS]

00:01:11   I feel like killing people [TS]

00:01:13   mm because i have been sleeping enough [TS]

00:01:15   homicidal of sleep deprivation [TS]

00:01:18   yeah now it's just the worst i mean you [TS]

00:01:21   know you can you can do one of those you [TS]

00:01:22   do a couple of those and you know and [TS]

00:01:24   also the thing is if your ice [TS]

00:01:26   I don't know if it's because you're busy [TS]

00:01:27   you're not busy or you're super busy but [TS]

00:01:29   like if you're really busy [TS]

00:01:31   yeah deadline and you do that you get [TS]

00:01:33   some kind of like an adrenaline thing we [TS]

00:01:36   get mad at the right thing [TS]

00:01:37   hmm you don't mean you're like that I [TS]

00:01:39   work well under those circumstances [TS]

00:01:42   yeah but last night I was lying in bed [TS]

00:01:44   and by the way happy happy new year John [TS]

00:01:46   who is it [TS]

00:01:48   oh yeah thank you as a few i had a [TS]

00:01:50   pretty good new year [TS]

00:01:51   yeah so I picture a pretty good new your [TS]

00:01:53   time the guy across the street that's [TS]

00:01:56   living in the van that I realized it is [TS]

00:02:00   name isn't vani it's gary and of course [TS]

00:02:02   if you're living in a van behind a hedge [TS]

00:02:04   question is Gary get married why is that [TS]

00:02:10   such a perfect name [TS]

00:02:11   I don't know Gary and he and I have had [TS]

00:02:13   several encounters lately and gary has a [TS]

00:02:16   has that thing where you see him and you [TS]

00:02:19   talked to him for 45 minutes and they [TS]

00:02:21   see in the next day and and he's never [TS]

00:02:23   met you before but I so i ended up [TS]

00:02:29   I've tried to call my across-the-street [TS]

00:02:31   neighbor several times and it's what [TS]

00:02:33   it's a thing where the the anonymous [TS]

00:02:35   voicemail [TS]

00:02:36   voice answers the phone and says the [TS]

00:02:38   mailbox is full and then just hangs up [TS]

00:02:40   on you and it's and it's a weird voice [TS]

00:02:42   it's not the voice that you normally [TS]

00:02:45   hear it's like a voice that you might [TS]

00:02:47   hear if you bought your phone at a gas [TS]

00:02:50   station [TS]

00:02:50   yeah i got verizon voice or something [TS]

00:02:52   some kind of weird voice where it's like [TS]

00:02:53   up the moist message bell box you're [TS]

00:02:56   trying to reach is full [TS]

00:02:57   click and so I was like uh you know [TS]

00:03:00   Gary's out there is the ellen is yelling [TS]

00:03:03   into the phone he's yelling at his [TS]

00:03:04   ex-wife just one o'clock in the morning [TS]

00:03:07   I don't wanna die I you know I don't [TS]

00:03:10   want him with the fire hose but [TS]

00:03:12   something's got you know like when i [TS]

00:03:15   started that he won't remember the next [TS]

00:03:16   day likely i started to ask myself the [TS]

00:03:19   question [TS]

00:03:19   hey what's the long game here is Gary [TS]

00:03:22   gonna live in the van in the front yard [TS]

00:03:23   of my neighbors house for another year [TS]

00:03:25   or two years or five years like there's [TS]

00:03:29   a little bit starting to he's a very [TS]

00:03:32   angry guy and I have a little kid right [TS]

00:03:35   so I so I called the neighbor went to [TS]

00:03:37   straight to voicemail but then [TS]

00:03:38   miraculously she called me back [TS]

00:03:41   associations she's just for folks who [TS]

00:03:43   haven't been following this you're [TS]

00:03:45   pretty worried about her for awhile you [TS]

00:03:46   haven't seen her in a while there are [TS]

00:03:47   people moving in and out there appeared [TS]

00:03:49   to be some parties a lot of corners [TS]

00:03:50   looking good is coming in and out of the [TS]

00:03:52   house it was a bad scene for a while and [TS]

00:03:55   then it calm down and you know and there [TS]

00:03:57   was a kind of a new normal which was at [TS]

00:04:00   least it's quiet on the set and the the [TS]

00:04:02   regular characters are there but I [TS]

00:04:03   hadn't seen her in a long time but I [TS]

00:04:05   figured you know I figured if they had [TS]

00:04:07   if they buried her in a shallow grave [TS]

00:04:10   they wouldn't just be coming and going [TS]

00:04:12   with with the like 7-11 bags and stuff [TS]

00:04:17   you know they'd be hightailing it or [TS]

00:04:19   they be stripping the copper pipes or [TS]

00:04:20   something right [TS]

00:04:22   anyway I called her she called me back [TS]

00:04:23   as one o'clock in the morning she's like [TS]

00:04:25   hey I saw that you called and I was like [TS]

00:04:26   hi haven't talked in a long time [TS]

00:04:30   she's like hi nice to hear from you it's [TS]

00:04:33   1am and in between our two houses there [TS]

00:04:37   are two things there's a a laurel hedge [TS]

00:04:39   that's 25 feet tall and there is a 1968 [TS]

00:04:45   ford van slowly rusting into the ground [TS]

00:04:48   with four flat tires emulated by gary [TS]

00:04:52   and in the middle of the van is Gary and [TS]

00:04:55   gary is and there's an extension cord [TS]

00:04:57   running from the van to the to the [TS]

00:04:59   outlet on the front of her house and [TS]

00:05:02   gary is audible to me quite audible in [TS]

00:05:06   the van going got tough to get it [TS]

00:05:08   fuck you to you know just like having a [TS]

00:05:13   an explosion of Rage 470 Sam that's been [TS]

00:05:16   lasting for like you know long enough [TS]

00:05:19   it's been lasting long enough that I did [TS]

00:05:21   I decided I was gonna like call my [TS]

00:05:22   neighbor and she's like what's going on [TS]

00:05:25   i'm like i'm calling about Gary and she [TS]

00:05:27   was like yeah I mean yeah I couldn't you [TS]

00:05:30   know I can make it easy for me okay Gary [TS]

00:05:33   time and even suck air she didn't go [TS]

00:05:35   yeah Gary no no nothing just like yeah [TS]

00:05:38   and I think what it is is that there is [TS]

00:05:40   a place in her house she can go where [TS]

00:05:43   she doesn't hear Carrie and there and I [TS]

00:05:47   mean there are places in my house where [TS]

00:05:49   I can go but what those places are not [TS]

00:05:51   my living room or bedroom and I'm like [TS]

00:05:54   Carrie is it Gary I have to be honest [TS]

00:05:56   with you Gary starting to be a problem [TS]

00:05:58   for me and she's like yeah and then she [TS]

00:06:00   does kind of soften and she's like yeah [TS]

00:06:02   Gary Gary needs to go and I'm like I [TS]

00:06:05   don't want to be the one to say it but [TS]

00:06:07   you know Gary I think I really think [TS]

00:06:10   Gary's got to go and she was like yeah [TS]

00:06:12   he's really going to be a problem he [TS]

00:06:13   started to he's cussing me out now and [TS]

00:06:16   I'm like I know you want to help Gary [TS]

00:06:18   but I started out is to do you remember [TS]

00:06:20   right that it started out as her kind of [TS]

00:06:22   helping rehab him [TS]

00:06:24   yeah she's talked for a while she was [TS]

00:06:26   gonna run a little rehab house there and [TS]

00:06:27   then she got engaged to one of the guys [TS]

00:06:29   and then the other guy sucking covered [TS]

00:06:31   in his van for a year at least [TS]

00:06:33   and so we had a very nice conversation [TS]

00:06:36   about how Gary needed to hustle up but [TS]

00:06:39   you know shuffle off to Buffalo and on [TS]

00:06:41   the one hand i'm thinking you know it's [TS]

00:06:43   the holidays right around the new year [TS]

00:06:46   it's a vulnerable time for everybody [TS]

00:06:48   maybe maybe I should take a softer line [TS]

00:06:52   on Gary right now and then the other [TS]

00:06:55   voice in my head was like what [TS]

00:06:57   well fuck Gary [TS]

00:06:59   uh everybody hits the bottom and [TS]

00:07:01   sometimes your bottom is that uh the [TS]

00:07:05   next door neighbor finally calls and [TS]

00:07:07   says that you that there that he's going [TS]

00:07:09   to send a tow truck for your van [TS]

00:07:11   are you there still no yeah no no I'm [TS]

00:07:14   listen I'm thinking so is its diff it's [TS]

00:07:18   so difficult because it's difficult when [TS]

00:07:20   I have those conversations I'm braced [TS]

00:07:22   for it to go poorly and you know and I I [TS]

00:07:25   don't want to be comforted hate being [TS]

00:07:26   confrontational with people about stuff [TS]

00:07:28   that is right on the bubble of their [TS]

00:07:30   business and not my business yeah you [TS]

00:07:32   have so uncomfortable about I really you [TS]

00:07:34   know it's whether it's a teenager having [TS]

00:07:36   a party or somebody parking in the [TS]

00:07:38   driveway or whatever I just think like [TS]

00:07:40   how much of this is in my head [TS]

00:07:41   personally how much this is in my head [TS]

00:07:43   and I could just be a fucking gentleman [TS]

00:07:45   and let it go and when you have a nice [TS]

00:07:47   conversation [TS]

00:07:48   I don't feel that much better because [TS]

00:07:49   now I really do feel like a party pooper [TS]

00:07:51   want to have that conversation one also [TS]

00:07:53   now we broach the topic so if Gary's [TS]

00:07:56   still there in a week which he [TS]

00:07:57   absolutely is going to be then there's a [TS]

00:08:01   new uncomfortableness which is we talked [TS]

00:08:03   about Gary getting the Gary getting gone [TS]

00:08:06   and now there's the there's the there's [TS]

00:08:13   the implication of a timeline because [TS]

00:08:16   we've had a conversation about it and [TS]

00:08:17   she's implicitly agreed that it should [TS]

00:08:20   happen [TS]

00:08:21   yeah implicitly that it will happen yeah [TS]

00:08:24   that it will happen and so then it's [TS]

00:08:26   like every time I see her now it's like [TS]

00:08:28   so how's it going with Gary are we where [TS]

00:08:31   we add on that and that is like not [TS]

00:08:33   that's not a relationship i want to have [TS]

00:08:35   with her you know I she she definitely [TS]

00:08:37   has an uphill climb and I mean for a [TS]

00:08:42   year [TS]

00:08:42   I've I haven't said a word about it [TS]

00:08:44   because it because it does it falls into [TS]

00:08:45   that category like well it's on her [TS]

00:08:47   property and it is her business and if [TS]

00:08:49   gary was her boyfriend and he was in [TS]

00:08:52   there [TS]

00:08:53   drunkenly screaming into the phone every [TS]

00:08:55   night and be like well that's just what [TS]

00:08:57   happens when you live in a neighborhood [TS]

00:08:58   right right but gary is it fair to the [TS]

00:09:03   crucial distinction which is gary is [TS]

00:09:06   living in the front yard and the front [TS]

00:09:08   yard is enough of a puppet that it's not [TS]

00:09:11   it's still on her property but it [TS]

00:09:12   it is public space in the center and [TS]

00:09:15   John it is a van [TS]

00:09:17   it's a van and it's that mean that year [TS]

00:09:19   is a long time for someone to live in a [TS]

00:09:21   van it softens front yard and you know [TS]

00:09:23   that's getting the driveway that's [TS]

00:09:24   Gary's life choice or whatever but the [TS]

00:09:27   thing is the van is tucked behind this [TS]

00:09:28   Laurel head in a way that the cops are [TS]

00:09:31   not aware it's there nobody's aware it's [TS]

00:09:32   there I thought about it the other day [TS]

00:09:34   if the hedge wasn't there and it was [TS]

00:09:36   just this rusting ass piece of shit man [TS]

00:09:39   with an extension cord going in one of [TS]

00:09:42   the windows and a guy in there yelling [TS]

00:09:44   into his phone [TS]

00:09:46   like other people would have taken [TS]

00:09:48   notice but and you know and like health [TS]

00:09:51   and human services or whatever would [TS]

00:09:53   have said are you bigger you pissing in [TS]

00:09:54   a bucket like where how much access does [TS]

00:09:58   Gary have to the house and have and like [TS]

00:10:00   that's a crucial especially if your if [TS]

00:10:03   your chronic alcoholic like sometimes [TS]

00:10:05   you gotta go to the bathroom [TS]

00:10:07   I just always think about fires I don't [TS]

00:10:09   know why as i get older i think about [TS]

00:10:11   like you know maybe Gary nods off the [TS]

00:10:16   marlboro red going mmm not so you know [TS]

00:10:18   next thing you know it's a piece like [TS]

00:10:20   it's the keys a can of beans and his [TS]

00:10:23   quarters are just single because my next [TS]

00:10:28   book my other next-door neighbor Patrick [TS]

00:10:30   Patrick everybody's feelings Justin [TS]

00:10:33   Patrick will drop a little science on me [TS]

00:10:35   every once awhile about Gary's like to [TS]

00:10:38   hear that guy here that guy out there [TS]

00:10:40   slamming his van door and stuff in the [TS]

00:10:43   middle of night and I'm like oh I hear [TS]

00:10:44   him Patrick go Patrick is is definitely [TS]

00:10:48   on he he airs on the other side of like [TS]

00:10:50   what happens on your property is your [TS]

00:10:52   business [TS]

00:10:53   Patrick's also the guy that that fired a [TS]

00:10:56   gun in the air when some teenage kid [TS]

00:10:57   climbed on the roof to Patrick right [TS]

00:11:00   talk to the talk to his teenage daughter [TS]

00:11:01   and so I mean I know Patrick when the [TS]

00:11:04   chips are down Patrick's capable of like [TS]

00:11:06   handling a situation if you needed to do [TS]

00:11:09   of for Gary extraction capture him in [TS]

00:11:12   his underwear with a gun in the street [TS]

00:11:14   something something again back and I [TS]

00:11:16   think I think Patrick's actually you [TS]

00:11:17   know off the sauce to do so the whole [TS]

00:11:19   neighborhood's cleaning up but the like [TS]

00:11:22   carries the last [TS]

00:11:24   he's the last of the mohicans and uh and [TS]

00:11:29   I just who i mean i'm going on and that [TS]

00:11:32   we finally have the conversation but now [TS]

00:11:34   it's getting now I don't know what to do [TS]

00:11:36   I don't you know there have been times [TS]

00:11:38   when I thought that I would just run a [TS]

00:11:41   hose from Gary's tailpipe right into the [TS]

00:11:43   back window and then we solve the [TS]

00:11:44   problem completely but Gary never turns [TS]

00:11:46   the motor on because the band doesn't [TS]

00:11:48   run anymore so anyway that's at that and [TS]

00:11:53   that's not why I'm not sleeping the [TS]

00:11:55   reason I'm not sleeping is that I set up [TS]

00:11:58   until five o'clock in the morning [TS]

00:11:59   looking at ebay on my phone but right [TS]

00:12:03   but Gary screaming at his ex-wife isn't [TS]

00:12:06   helping me right and I wonder what the [TS]

00:12:10   hell she's doing at one o'clock in the [TS]

00:12:11   morning taking these hour-long phone [TS]

00:12:13   calls you know what I mean like if if I [TS]

00:12:15   were her I would have had to hang up the [TS]

00:12:17   phone after a certain after look like [TS]

00:12:20   the 40th raged fuck you I'd be like okay [TS]

00:12:25   Carrie that's the thing about a about [TS]

00:12:28   eight what I was going to say toxic [TS]

00:12:31   personality but i'll say let's say an [TS]

00:12:33   incendiary personality whether that is [TS]

00:12:36   in real life or on the internet or [TS]

00:12:38   whatever and I'll speak for myself my [TS]

00:12:40   reaction is to just not poke at it and i [TS]

00:12:42   would i would just as soon find some way [TS]

00:12:44   to just kind of avoid it and that's [TS]

00:12:46   probably that's kind of what everybody [TS]

00:12:47   wants to do unless you're somebody who [TS]

00:12:49   is you know very convert confrontation [TS]

00:12:51   like if there's if I'm on the train with [TS]

00:12:53   my kid and somebody's having a meltdown [TS]

00:12:57   yep which happened I mean you we've [TS]

00:13:00   we've been on the train where they had [TS]

00:13:02   to stop it and have the cops pull up [TS]

00:13:03   because the driver had to call the cops [TS]

00:13:04   were basically the entire part of the [TS]

00:13:07   car has emptied out except for you know [TS]

00:13:09   what one homeless guy like melting down [TS]

00:13:11   and screaming obscenities and swing [TS]

00:13:13   things around and so in that case like [TS]

00:13:15   there's the short certainly there's a [TS]

00:13:16   part of me that goes like that's a human [TS]

00:13:17   being is suffering that somebody who [TS]

00:13:20   like with a little bit of medication and [TS]

00:13:21   a hot meal might do a little better [TS]

00:13:23   my inclination is to just get my kid [TS]

00:13:25   movie other side of the of the training [TS]

00:13:26   right it's so much easier and i have to [TS]

00:13:29   say in general I mean you're going to [TS]

00:13:31   live in a city that is that is a healthy [TS]

00:13:34   way to be because you can't fix [TS]

00:13:36   everything right when you [TS]

00:13:38   take care of yourself you gotta go check [TS]

00:13:39   your six as you say [TS]

00:13:41   yep but but you know I don't but there's [TS]

00:13:43   one guys one guy in our neighborhood not [TS]

00:13:46   the not the chicken eating rice throwing [TS]

00:13:48   guy but there's one guy in our [TS]

00:13:49   neighborhood who like I all I had maybe [TS]

00:13:52   three years ago I almost came to blows [TS]

00:13:53   with um I think he's deeply [TS]

00:13:56   schizophrenic he sleeps in doorways and [TS]

00:14:00   I and he would just randomly yell things [TS]

00:14:03   at people and in one particular occasion [TS]

00:14:05   I have a pretty thick skin for city [TS]

00:14:08   stuff but he got close enough and loud [TS]

00:14:10   enough when i was with my kid one time [TS]

00:14:11   that I kind of stepped him a little bit [TS]

00:14:13   which as you can imagine this unusual [TS]

00:14:15   for me [TS]

00:14:15   yeah I felt like it was a situation [TS]

00:14:16   where I had to stick out my chest a [TS]

00:14:18   little bit and get past the fog with [TS]

00:14:20   this guy because it felt like it was [TS]

00:14:21   kind of like an imminent thing [TS]

00:14:23   yeah and after that happened I got [TS]

00:14:26   really i would avoid him i would I did [TS]

00:14:30   not like the guy [TS]

00:14:31   yeah because he had you know I felt [TS]

00:14:33   menaced by the guy you know of course [TS]

00:14:35   there's a small part of me that felt bad [TS]

00:14:37   for him if anything happened like with a [TS]

00:14:39   year or so later something happened [TS]

00:14:41   maybe he got picked up and put somewhere [TS]

00:14:44   for a while but he got what I'm guessing [TS]

00:14:46   is medicated right and got healthy and [TS]

00:14:50   he was he would still be sitting in [TS]

00:14:51   front of the walgreens with his hand out [TS]

00:14:53   and I mean this guy Demi that we're [TS]

00:14:55   talking like like just like you know [TS]

00:14:58   same clothes for four months covered in [TS]

00:15:00   front of stuff and just filthy and and [TS]

00:15:04   the thing was though and suddenly I [TS]

00:15:07   don't say his name but but eventually he [TS]

00:15:09   started saying like hey any chance you [TS]

00:15:10   could help me out today and I was like [TS]

00:15:12   whoa hello [TS]

00:15:13   he's and I was like oh sorry man not [TS]

00:15:15   today which is of course what you say [TS]

00:15:17   but I real and i would hear him having [TS]

00:15:19   conversations with people and he sounded [TS]

00:15:21   like a little bit of a crank but he [TS]

00:15:23   wasn't dangerous anymore and yeah I [TS]

00:15:26   don't know I felt like shit about it I [TS]

00:15:28   felt terrible about it because i can't [TS]

00:15:30   really do that much to help this guy but [TS]

00:15:32   he is my official adoptive look homeless [TS]

00:15:34   guy wherever I live this is my this is [TS]

00:15:36   my policy on giving money that homeless [TS]

00:15:38   people i pick exactly one person every [TS]

00:15:40   time I see them I give them five dollars [TS]

00:15:41   and you show you chose this going to be [TS]

00:15:43   your have adopted for for like maybe a [TS]

00:15:46   year and a half now [TS]

00:15:47   mhm and if I got a little cash or I feel [TS]

00:15:49   like you know something to say I'm done [TS]

00:15:51   in awhile just say hey Larry unit and [TS]

00:15:56   take it easy man [TS]

00:15:56   and you know but like I I the whole in [TS]

00:15:59   every part of that makes me feel like [TS]

00:16:01   shit i feel like shit that I got [TS]

00:16:02   emotional with him I feel terrible that [TS]

00:16:04   he is a schizophrenic man living on the [TS]

00:16:05   streets and you know where I live [TS]

00:16:07   wearing them [TS]

00:16:07   we're really in them in the outside [TS]

00:16:11   lands as they say it's nothing like what [TS]

00:16:12   you get if you live in the castro or [TS]

00:16:14   something but I don't know the whole [TS]

00:16:16   thing makes me feel terrible and of [TS]

00:16:17   course then it just makes me more filled [TS]

00:16:19   with self-doubt in the same way that I [TS]

00:16:21   would be reluctant to call out Jerry you [TS]

00:16:23   know what I mean it's like there's a [TS]

00:16:25   part of me that's like me and [TS]

00:16:26   everybody's fucked up and there hasn't [TS]

00:16:28   been a fire so I don't wanna be a dick [TS]

00:16:30   yeah right and and this is the you know [TS]

00:16:34   the the famous old adage and I don't [TS]

00:16:37   know whether it was Churchill or Mark [TS]

00:16:38   Twain or dingus khan or Descartes who [TS]

00:16:42   said hard heart of the conservative and [TS]

00:16:45   liberal yeah right yeah right here [TS]

00:16:48   tonight is not a liberal by the time [TS]

00:16:49   he's a young man [TS]

00:16:50   yeah hard-hearted anyone is not a [TS]

00:16:52   conservative by the time their forties [TS]

00:16:54   soft-headed yeah was that Benjamin [TS]

00:16:56   Disraeli who was that I've heard [TS]

00:16:57   attributed to Churchill yeah it's really [TS]

00:16:59   more talking [TS]

00:17:00   it's I think it's probably it's probably [TS]

00:17:02   Mark Twain talking the Churchill for [TS]

00:17:04   Remy um but it's one of those it's one [TS]

00:17:06   of those problems of like when you're a [TS]

00:17:08   young person it is it's a your [TS]

00:17:12   sympathies abound and you and you want [TS]

00:17:17   to live in a world where none of those [TS]

00:17:19   things you know it's it's not possible [TS]

00:17:21   for people to fall through the cracks [TS]

00:17:23   like that you feel it very invested in [TS]

00:17:26   the social compact why what you know [TS]

00:17:30   they're there [TS]

00:17:30   why is this man left to what you know [TS]

00:17:34   why can't he be helped and then as you [TS]

00:17:37   get older and older like get the hell [TS]

00:17:39   off my lawn [TS]

00:17:40   Rand and you start to feel even mean [TS]

00:17:43   certainly I have started to feel as [TS]

00:17:46   someone who has a young person actually [TS]

00:17:48   slept on park benches quite a bit [TS]

00:17:50   increasingly as time goes on I feel like [TS]

00:17:53   some of these problems are intractable [TS]

00:17:54   mental health problems social the the [TS]

00:17:58   social compact is not airtight and a lot [TS]

00:18:04   of these problems you know do not have [TS]

00:18:07   simple solutions i mean my mom spent [TS]

00:18:09   years walking around town adopting [TS]

00:18:12   homeless people to the to the point that [TS]

00:18:14   she would bring them home with her and [TS]

00:18:16   reestablish contact with their families [TS]

00:18:19   and and you know go through these [TS]

00:18:22   elaborate processes get them on their [TS]

00:18:25   medication find them work all these [TS]

00:18:27   things and then six months and the [TS]

00:18:30   transformation was incredible and you [TS]

00:18:32   have these you have these moments with [TS]

00:18:34   her we're just like you are [TS]

00:18:35   irri absolute angel and look what's [TS]

00:18:38   happened that this guy used to be a [TS]

00:18:41   sitting in front of the supermarket like [TS]

00:18:43   with drool down his face and now he's [TS]

00:18:45   like wearing a tie he's going to work [TS]

00:18:48   he's lucid and ended up and and turns [TS]

00:18:50   out an amazing guy and then nine months [TS]

00:18:53   later he decided on his own volition to [TS]

00:18:58   stop taking his medication and and then [TS]

00:19:02   he lose his job and then a few months [TS]

00:19:04   later he's living under the freeway [TS]

00:19:06   again and you get that other sense of [TS]

00:19:09   frustration of like wow that was a that [TS]

00:19:11   was a year it was not just a year's work [TS]

00:19:14   sort of up to end up right back where we [TS]

00:19:17   started but also the emotional journey [TS]

00:19:20   of like yeah [TS]

00:19:22   wow I don't anybody know my mom would [TS]

00:19:24   come out of those experiences feeling [TS]

00:19:25   like I don't anymore feel like I can i I [TS]

00:19:29   don't know how to help [TS]

00:19:30   it's not that I don't feel like I can [TS]

00:19:32   help but like giving the guy five [TS]

00:19:34   dollars for a bottle of wine is one form [TS]

00:19:36   of it trying to get him in touch with [TS]

00:19:38   his family back in Ohio is another form [TS]

00:19:40   of it and and ultimately the thing that [TS]

00:19:43   most people do which is sorry man [TS]

00:19:45   or worse is another form of it and and I [TS]

00:19:50   don't know the solution isn't easy and [TS]

00:19:53   in particular with my neighbors you know [TS]

00:19:56   my neighborhood is what we would have in [TS]

00:20:00   the past referred to as a respectable [TS]

00:20:02   lower mid [TS]

00:20:03   class neighborhood everybody there is [TS]

00:20:06   itself there's a working-class diverse [TS]

00:20:08   working-class neighborhood the first [TS]

00:20:09   working-class neighborhood where where [TS]

00:20:11   people are you know they don't have a [TS]

00:20:13   disposable income to really care for [TS]

00:20:16   their yards or houses in a in a in a way [TS]

00:20:20   that he would drive through and say like [TS]

00:20:23   wow these this neighborhoods got curb [TS]

00:20:25   appeal but people are minding their own [TS]

00:20:28   business and they're making their [TS]

00:20:29   payments and they are you know they are [TS]

00:20:31   solid and fair number of people who own [TS]

00:20:34   their house [TS]

00:20:35   I think everybody in the neighborhood [TS]

00:20:37   does with the you know with the with the [TS]

00:20:40   exception of those houses where there [TS]

00:20:42   are a lot of people living sexy so [TS]

00:20:44   unusual today [TS]

00:20:45   well and that's one of the differences [TS]

00:20:47   of a of of Seattle and Portland compared [TS]

00:20:51   to a lot of American cities which is [TS]

00:20:54   that there aren't really there are there [TS]

00:20:57   aren't really ghettos here and there [TS]

00:20:59   single-family homes and there are [TS]

00:21:01   neighborhoods that are rich in [TS]

00:21:02   neighborhoods that are poor and there [TS]

00:21:03   are some housing projects but even those [TS]

00:21:06   housing projects are built to look and [TS]

00:21:09   emulate a single-family home [TS]

00:21:12   neighborhoods winding streets and [TS]

00:21:14   basketball hoops at that at the [TS]

00:21:16   cul-de-sac and San Francisco the only [TS]

00:21:18   way you can tell sometimes is very large [TS]

00:21:20   signs and very bright lights [TS]

00:21:22   that's right the the arc lights used to [TS]

00:21:25   be the way you could tell now in seattle [TS]

00:21:27   has done away with that like a [TS]

00:21:29   concentration camp lighting and even the [TS]

00:21:33   even the poorest neighborhoods in the [TS]

00:21:34   city kind of just have have have a [TS]

00:21:36   neighborhood five but but you know the [TS]

00:21:39   conflict between me and Gary for [TS]

00:21:41   instance or you know or my interest in [TS]

00:21:44   the house across the street is also tied [TS]

00:21:47   up in a lot of class issues where I [TS]

00:21:50   totally super concerned about being the [TS]

00:21:54   you know about being someone who's moved [TS]

00:21:56   into the neighborhood of things I've [TS]

00:21:57   lived in that house longer than they've [TS]

00:22:00   lived in that house right i mean it's [TS]

00:22:01   not like I moved into their neighborhood [TS]

00:22:04   but but the question of like a ok [TS]

00:22:08   like here there's gotta be something [TS]

00:22:12   there's got to be some level of decorum [TS]

00:22:13   here that doesn't include for instance [TS]

00:22:17   that party where people were just [TS]

00:22:19   ransacking the house but at the same [TS]

00:22:23   time it's like I don't know maybe I've [TS]

00:22:25   been to a lot of parties where would [TS]

00:22:26   have looked to an outsider like like we [TS]

00:22:29   were just stripping the house and it [TS]

00:22:32   wasn't that at all and you know and and [TS]

00:22:36   I I no longer have the another thing you [TS]

00:22:39   another mistake you can make in in youth [TS]

00:22:42   is thinking that because you slept on [TS]

00:22:44   some park benches for for a few nights [TS]

00:22:46   that you have real insight into what it [TS]

00:22:50   is to be poor and um and I no longer [TS]

00:22:54   make that mistake of of assuming that [TS]

00:22:57   like I map you know that with it i'm [TS]

00:22:59   inside their heads and that we all share [TS]

00:23:01   like a common life experience right but [TS]

00:23:06   I'm you know I mean what I'm a homeowner [TS]

00:23:08   and and and i also feel a little bit of [TS]

00:23:11   that hit that creeping republicanism of [TS]

00:23:15   like I'm a homeowner I mean just to say [TS]

00:23:17   those words in respect to what your [TS]

00:23:20   neighbors are doing across the street [TS]

00:23:21   bike as a homeowner I feel like we need [TS]

00:23:25   to we need to start up having like a [TS]

00:23:29   homeowner meanings where we we go around [TS]

00:23:32   go around the room and say like okay [TS]

00:23:34   who's got a guy living in a van in his [TS]

00:23:36   front yard anybody right how many people [TS]

00:23:39   let's see a show of hands but you know [TS]

00:23:41   there is that the phrase that went [TS]

00:23:42   around a lot and then one of the many [TS]

00:23:44   many malcolm gladwell isms that has been [TS]

00:23:47   kind of or partly or mostly disproven [TS]

00:23:50   broken windows syndrome [TS]

00:23:51   yeah you know well i mean the thing is i [TS]

00:23:53   understand that the part that was [TS]

00:23:54   disproven about broken windows syndrome [TS]

00:23:56   was not the part that if there's a few [TS]

00:24:00   broken windows you get more broken [TS]

00:24:02   windows the part that seems a little [TS]

00:24:03   disproven is that fixing those windows [TS]

00:24:06   does make a substantial difference right [TS]

00:24:10   but I i mean i'll just say this is [TS]

00:24:12   totally anecdotal but i think the first [TS]

00:24:14   part is still very true [TS]

00:24:15   yeah just like what you put up with [TS]

00:24:16   becomes ok [TS]

00:24:17   and then once that's ok then more stuff [TS]

00:24:21   that's not so great because ok as well [TS]

00:24:22   yes it is new and look no further than [TS]

00:24:24   the place where you walk in and put your [TS]

00:24:26   mail down you come in you put your mail [TS]

00:24:27   down that used to be a working surface [TS]

00:24:29   and now it's covered with male like that [TS]

00:24:31   takes a week and i think it's i think [TS]

00:24:33   it's true i mean like you know do you [TS]

00:24:35   want to be in the neighborhood where [TS]

00:24:36   it's ok for somebody just have a van in [TS]

00:24:38   the yard and somebody's a little [TS]

00:24:39   unstable living in it for a year [TS]

00:24:41   yeah yeah my dad called that that table [TS]

00:24:44   the magic table because if you put [TS]

00:24:45   something down on the top of it within a [TS]

00:24:49   couple of weeks it would be at the [TS]

00:24:51   bottom of the pile and that seemed to [TS]

00:24:52   magic to him and then his solution was [TS]

00:24:56   at a certain point when it because when [TS]

00:24:57   it was teetering the pile was teetering [TS]

00:24:59   he would sweep it all into a cardboard [TS]

00:25:01   box put the cardboard box at the bottom [TS]

00:25:03   of a closet and then wait and if that's [TS]

00:25:07   the way you got it yeah then wait 30 [TS]

00:25:09   years and died haha that's hot i still [TS]

00:25:12   do that idea that with our microwave we [TS]

00:25:14   open the door the microwave and a [TS]

00:25:16   leather man and a bill fall off and it's [TS]

00:25:18   like that's it and I guess I sweep [TS]

00:25:19   everything into a box and put it in the [TS]

00:25:21   closet [TS]

00:25:22   this is my legacy that the stuff with [TS]

00:25:24   internet this is not good for our Happy [TS]

00:25:27   New Year episode but you know the stuff [TS]

00:25:29   about dealing with folks who have like [TS]

00:25:30   serious you know mental and chemical [TS]

00:25:33   stuff you know you hear these stories [TS]

00:25:34   about we need to talk about the family [TS]

00:25:36   and getting in touch with the family and [TS]

00:25:38   there are a lot of families who quietly [TS]

00:25:40   have somebody in their family who is [TS]

00:25:42   kind of in and out of the system on and [TS]

00:25:45   off of the streets for decades [TS]

00:25:47   I mean you don't you don't have to poke [TS]

00:25:49   around very far to find somebody who has [TS]

00:25:51   a brother or maybe has a mother for that [TS]

00:25:53   matter who is just kind of there are [TS]

00:25:57   definitely part of the family tree but [TS]

00:25:59   there's no amount of quote-unquote [TS]

00:26:03   helping them that anybody can can do [TS]

00:26:07   that will actually fix the problem and [TS]

00:26:09   they're just in and out of the system [TS]

00:26:10   all the time and those people are happy [TS]

00:26:12   people but they there's a certain kind [TS]

00:26:14   of resolution [TS]

00:26:15   it's like when the wire I know when [TS]

00:26:17   bubbles goes to his sister's house is [TS]

00:26:18   like I cleaned up like here's a key and [TS]

00:26:20   go in the basement I don't ever want to [TS]

00:26:21   see you like that's right you fuck me [TS]

00:26:24   enough times exactly i'm never going to [TS]

00:26:26   believe you get eventually eventually [TS]

00:26:27   the time comes off and your back under [TS]

00:26:29   the bridge it's like it [TS]

00:26:31   just it's so much more complicated than [TS]

00:26:32   anybody if you're not around it all the [TS]

00:26:35   time [TS]

00:26:36   IES certainly i'm not an expert on it [TS]

00:26:39   but I do know that something like [TS]

00:26:41   homelessness is way more it is at some [TS]

00:26:44   level very much an economic issue but [TS]

00:26:46   there's a lot more to it than that it [TS]

00:26:48   might be economics but you know you've [TS]

00:26:50   been to the haight there's no there's a [TS]

00:26:52   lot of people living on the street in [TS]

00:26:54   the hate or like the Panhandle along [TS]

00:26:56   pretty sure we'll probably be in college [TS]

00:26:58   in the next five years they've been [TS]

00:27:00   chosen to be like a skate rat they've [TS]

00:27:04   joined the proletariat and they who [TS]

00:27:05   knows they might come out of it a lot of [TS]

00:27:07   people if it is purely economical they [TS]

00:27:09   do not want to go to a shelter that's [TS]

00:27:10   where you get stabbed [TS]

00:27:12   yeah it's you know anyway i mean the the [TS]

00:27:15   confusing thing about it is that a on a [TS]

00:27:17   one-on-one level we've all had [TS]

00:27:19   experiences where you where you say like [TS]

00:27:21   oh this and it isn't just mental illness [TS]

00:27:24   homelessness drug abuse but situations [TS]

00:27:27   where you go [TS]

00:27:28   this is an interactive well intractable [TS]

00:27:30   track to political intractable Thank You [TS]

00:27:35   intractable problem i've tried you know [TS]

00:27:39   like my kid is a drug addict I've tried [TS]

00:27:41   this have tried that I've tried I've [TS]

00:27:43   tried tough love I've tried love love [TS]

00:27:45   I've tried help i've tried external [TS]

00:27:48   training a certain tried ignoring it [TS]

00:27:50   yeah I've tried all the fins and each of [TS]

00:27:54   us has had experiences and all families [TS]

00:27:57   and all individual people have had [TS]

00:27:58   experiences and and even just with [TS]

00:28:00   people where like I've been trying to [TS]

00:28:02   explain to them for five years that [TS]

00:28:06   living paycheck to paycheck is is like a [TS]

00:28:11   risky proposition and that they should [TS]

00:28:13   put 50 bucks in the bank every time they [TS]

00:28:16   get a paycheck and if they did that for [TS]

00:28:18   a year then they have a little bit of [TS]

00:28:19   money and they wouldn't feel so insecure [TS]

00:28:20   and he try and explain that to somebody [TS]

00:28:23   for 3 years 5 years and you realize like [TS]

00:28:25   oh nothing i'm doing here can help this [TS]

00:28:29   person does not want to know this they [TS]

00:28:32   don't want to hear it and they keep [TS]

00:28:34   spending every paycheck they get and [TS]

00:28:36   then they keep having financial crises [TS]

00:28:38   and they keep acting like it's a big [TS]

00:28:41   mystery and that and that there's [TS]

00:28:43   something unfair about [TS]

00:28:44   you know that like why does everybody [TS]

00:28:46   else get to like go on vacation it's [TS]

00:28:49   like well as some people save their [TS]

00:28:51   money and you don't and but the the [TS]

00:28:53   problem is we understand those on [TS]

00:28:54   personal on a personal level but [TS]

00:28:57   whenever we start talking as a society [TS]

00:29:00   in a culture about those problems taken [TS]

00:29:04   to a larger scale than all of a sudden [TS]

00:29:05   it becomes much harder to say some [TS]

00:29:08   problems are unsolvable because we have [TS]

00:29:12   such faith in ourselves and in [TS]

00:29:15   technology and in our and in our thought [TS]

00:29:18   technologies we have such faith [TS]

00:29:20   particularly in the nineteenth and [TS]

00:29:22   twentieth centuries that we can solve [TS]

00:29:25   all problems and it's just a matter of [TS]

00:29:28   applying the Right theory and the right [TS]

00:29:30   engine and and things become politicized [TS]

00:29:33   so then it its it's not just that that [TS]

00:29:38   these people that there's a problem with [TS]

00:29:40   drug abuse but it's a problem of with [TS]

00:29:42   drug abuse and the other political party [TS]

00:29:45   has the wrong attitude about it and then [TS]

00:29:48   it's a battle and the implication is if [TS]

00:29:52   the other if the other side of the coin [TS]

00:29:54   here wasn't resisting the reforms that [TS]

00:29:58   we have in mind right we would have [TS]

00:29:59   solved this problem a long time ago and [TS]

00:30:02   it's like well every time some a new [TS]

00:30:03   Congress gets elected we apply all the [TS]

00:30:06   the new reforms of that the last party [TS]

00:30:08   was standing in the in the way of and [TS]

00:30:12   and the problem never get solved [TS]

00:30:14   it's very difficult as a society to say [TS]

00:30:18   well all we can do is manage this [TS]

00:30:22   problem and we're never not and not [TS]

00:30:25   everyone is always and not everyone can [TS]

00:30:27   be healthy and not everyone can be not [TS]

00:30:30   every problem can get solved and so what [TS]

00:30:32   what's the best management of it and [TS]

00:30:34   Seattle just started doing a thing a [TS]

00:30:37   couple of years ago where they built a [TS]

00:30:38   they built the sort of a hotel for [TS]

00:30:42   chronic alcoholics where they gave him [TS]

00:30:46   an allotment of booze every day I've [TS]

00:30:48   heard about this [TS]

00:30:49   I've heard about these different [TS]

00:30:50   programs of like it actually costs less [TS]

00:30:53   money in the long run to set somebody up [TS]

00:30:56   somewhere to put them into this [TS]

00:30:57   system yeah right i mean they're they're [TS]

00:30:59   just like these are the people bet that [TS]

00:31:02   the three times a month are getting lift [TS]

00:31:05   at you know transported to the emergency [TS]

00:31:08   room in an ambulance and every one of [TS]

00:31:11   those times across eight thousand [TS]

00:31:13   dollars and they spend the night in the [TS]

00:31:14   hospital and that cost eight thousand [TS]

00:31:16   dollars and we could put him in a hotel [TS]

00:31:20   and give them a a leader of alcohol a [TS]

00:31:23   day and that would just cost us two [TS]

00:31:26   thousand dollars a month and they would [TS]

00:31:29   be happy and that company cold and [TS]

00:31:32   started Hamsterdam but that's exactly [TS]

00:31:34   that's right and there you know and the [TS]

00:31:36   problem is like the activists classes [TS]

00:31:39   don't know what to do with that [TS]

00:31:40   information because on the one hand it's [TS]

00:31:42   much more humane but on the other hand [TS]

00:31:44   it seems again like its management [TS]

00:31:47   no one is suggesting that these people [TS]

00:31:49   are going to get better right [TS]

00:31:51   it's just like here's your leader of [TS]

00:31:53   booze and the key to your room and try [TS]

00:31:56   not to like try not to bleed on the [TS]

00:31:58   toilet seat in the morning and it's [TS]

00:32:01   there's nothing pretty about it but but [TS]

00:32:04   human beings are our I don't know this [TS]

00:32:08   is that this is one of the major themes [TS]

00:32:09   above my life is like yeah how far from [TS]

00:32:13   animals are we really yeah i mean i-i [TS]

00:32:19   just have a similar maybe slightly [TS]

00:32:21   different my if there's anything that I [TS]

00:32:23   feel like has been both super useful and [TS]

00:32:27   extremely vexing in my journey to try to [TS]

00:32:29   figure out whatever you wanna call it [TS]

00:32:31   productivity creativity just problem [TS]

00:32:33   solving and there's a lot of things I [TS]

00:32:35   think we mentioned i mention this to a [TS]

00:32:37   few weeks going in an episode but you [TS]

00:32:40   know it's I feel like any solution [TS]

00:32:43   that's uncomplicated is probably not [TS]

00:32:45   true and probably not real it's like if [TS]

00:32:47   you haven't found something complicated [TS]

00:32:48   yet you are near the truth if you if it [TS]

00:32:51   seems if it seems simple you're not done [TS]

00:32:53   looking you have already on happily ever [TS]

00:32:55   after and so you're or you are or you [TS]

00:32:58   are meticulously avoiding looking at the [TS]

00:33:00   things you don't want to look at a [TS]

00:33:02   hundred percent and that's why I mean [TS]

00:33:04   now this might be a little bit too neat [TS]

00:33:06   i might be guilty of my own thing here [TS]

00:33:08   but you know it'sit's you have to [TS]

00:33:10   understand [TS]

00:33:11   and that everything in life is an [TS]

00:33:12   engineering problem there's probably at [TS]

00:33:14   least three different vectors to [TS]

00:33:15   everything and anytime you try to solve [TS]

00:33:18   one problem one way the one of the first [TS]

00:33:21   questions to ask yourself especially if [TS]

00:33:23   you're a lawmaker oars or you know a [TS]

00:33:25   public person is how much am i doing [TS]

00:33:28   about this just change the way that it [TS]

00:33:30   looks [TS]

00:33:31   yeah because if you want to just change [TS]

00:33:32   the way something looks there's a [TS]

00:33:34   thousand different angles you can take [TS]

00:33:35   you can cook the books you can put [TS]

00:33:37   people in and moving over to Hamsterdam [TS]

00:33:39   likes all kinds of ways that you can [TS]

00:33:41   change the appearance of something it's [TS]

00:33:42   just that once you try to actually [TS]

00:33:44   change anything you realize you're [TS]

00:33:45   actually changing or another way to put [TS]

00:33:48   it rather than changing is your uh [TS]

00:33:49   pending you are chaotic sizing probably [TS]

00:33:53   five or six different things unintended [TS]

00:33:55   consequences and like these [TS]

00:33:56   what is it you really want to change so [TS]

00:33:58   the phrase i always use in this [TS]

00:33:59   productivity stuff is ask yourself if [TS]

00:34:01   you're solving the right problem at the [TS]

00:34:03   right level for the right reasons as if [TS]

00:34:05   you don't like those up all you're gonna [TS]

00:34:06   do is it's all optics it's all just [TS]

00:34:08   changing how it looks and so the thing [TS]

00:34:10   is if you're mostly sad because you see [TS]

00:34:12   homeless people on the street your [TS]

00:34:14   solution one solution might be to give [TS]

00:34:15   him five dollars for wine another [TS]

00:34:17   solution might be to put them all into [TS]

00:34:18   some kind of a camp you know but like [TS]

00:34:21   are you really trying to solve and you [TS]

00:34:23   can't ever solve the total problem of [TS]

00:34:26   class status and economics in America so [TS]

00:34:28   at what level will you try to solve that [TS]

00:34:30   yeah and then you have to if you scope [TS]

00:34:32   that correctly you can have successes [TS]

00:34:34   but they won't be permanent successes [TS]

00:34:35   they won't be easy successes and they [TS]

00:34:37   won't be complete successes and that's [TS]

00:34:39   what everybody thinks they want they [TS]

00:34:40   think if we can't do this completely [TS]

00:34:42   perfectly it's not worth doing and so [TS]

00:34:45   anyway that's a little bit better and [TS]

00:34:46   that is computed that that that's what [TS]

00:34:48   that is absolutely another another angle [TS]

00:34:52   to it which is that no one wants no one [TS]

00:34:55   no one is satisfied with that with a [TS]

00:34:58   half victory right because because so [TS]

00:35:02   much of the so much of these questions [TS]

00:35:04   is what energizes the whole political [TS]

00:35:08   machine in America like if if if a [TS]

00:35:12   problem if we call a problem solved [TS]

00:35:15   uh then the the fundraising engine dries [TS]

00:35:19   up and the and the the outrage engine [TS]

00:35:23   drives up [TS]

00:35:24   and so so they're the these these ideas [TS]

00:35:29   these big ideas and people's lives [TS]

00:35:31   really ultimately our are pitted against [TS]

00:35:34   one another in order to keep this big [TS]

00:35:38   machine of the of the chattering classes [TS]

00:35:42   and the legislative classes it employed [TS]

00:35:45   and it what amazes me about the Congress [TS]

00:35:48   is that they find a way to every year up [TS]

00:35:54   make a bunch of new laws and hits like [TS]

00:35:57   there are a lot of laws already [TS]

00:35:59   the question is so infrequently that we [TS]

00:36:02   need a new law and that standard [TS]

00:36:06   applying the standard of like it making [TS]

00:36:10   a new law should be a last resort and so [TS]

00:36:15   there's a lot of work that the Congress [TS]

00:36:17   can do the the big glamorous work that [TS]

00:36:20   they do is make a new law right and we [TS]

00:36:24   just keep making new laws and our the [TS]

00:36:27   old laws are like all these skin flakes [TS]

00:36:30   carpeting the bed where the Congress [TS]

00:36:32   lays where they don't they don't work [TS]

00:36:35   anymore we don't look at the fact that [TS]

00:36:36   it's that this this legacy of crafty [TS]

00:36:38   laws go whether remember there were [TS]

00:36:40   people 100 or 50 or 25 years ago had the [TS]

00:36:43   same right idea let's go make a law [TS]

00:36:44   that's right exactly and and and we [TS]

00:36:47   don't as a we're not very reflective as [TS]

00:36:49   a people we don't look back at our at [TS]

00:36:51   our legacy at our recent history even [TS]

00:36:54   and say were these attempts like let me [TS]

00:36:58   use the power of metaphor for these [TS]

00:37:01   attempts that we made 25 years ago 50 [TS]

00:37:04   years ago were they successful and in [TS]

00:37:06   what ways were they successful but also [TS]

00:37:07   in what ways where they were they [TS]

00:37:10   failures utter failures and why would we [TS]

00:37:12   go down that road again a hundred times [TS]

00:37:15   a thousand times and it's that we are [TS]

00:37:19   boy we are imperfect and and unlikable [TS]

00:37:23   little fucking pig bugs [TS]

00:37:27   god dammit season games i'm looking out [TS]

00:37:30   the window right now at the at the [TS]

00:37:31   freeway on-ramp but I'm just like [TS]

00:37:32   goddamn you pigs and you know the other [TS]

00:37:36   part of this that man it's just it's so [TS]

00:37:38   beyond obvious but man that's the stuff [TS]

00:37:40   we always miss is like you know what [TS]

00:37:42   vast percentage of the time do we think [TS]

00:37:44   laws need to be made because other [TS]

00:37:45   people need to be stopped from doing [TS]

00:37:47   something there's nobody there are very [TS]

00:37:49   very few people out there who are saying [TS]

00:37:51   that they need a lot past about them [TS]

00:37:52   there are very few people who say you [TS]

00:37:54   know what I'm pretty irresponsible in [TS]

00:37:56   this one area so I should have some kind [TS]

00:37:58   of threat of criminal or civil law [TS]

00:38:01   introduced so that I'll become a better [TS]

00:38:02   person I'd always gets me [TS]

00:38:05   yeah but we're always were always [TS]

00:38:08   looking for all these other people who [TS]

00:38:09   have caused our problems and then we [TS]

00:38:11   want to live past about them and then [TS]

00:38:13   there's this entire inefficient arm [TS]

00:38:15   inefficient arms inefficient limbs of [TS]

00:38:17   government are expected to sweep out and [TS]

00:38:19   do that in a way that's going to be fair [TS]

00:38:22   yeah fucking people oh my god there they [TS]

00:38:26   are they're all out there they're [TS]

00:38:27   wandering around over there stopping at [TS]

00:38:30   stop lights when the light turns green [TS]

00:38:33   and they go they take the whole width of [TS]

00:38:35   the walkway just so and you know in a [TS]

00:38:40   pole at the at the level of being a [TS]

00:38:44   parent and watching watching a child [TS]

00:38:48   kind of navigate the the very first sort [TS]

00:38:51   of human first real human interaction [TS]

00:38:54   when they're little babies right there [TS]

00:38:56   just sort of like how there they are [TS]

00:38:57   look at him go like throw some food in [TS]

00:38:59   their crate and put a blanket over it [TS]

00:39:01   and and then we'll see him in the [TS]

00:39:04   morning but you know when when uh when [TS]

00:39:08   my daughter has she started now to have [TS]

00:39:10   interactions at school that I recognized [TS]

00:39:12   as human interactions and ones that like [TS]

00:39:17   oh this is her first encounter with this [TS]

00:39:19   and assigned a certain kind of [TS]

00:39:22   interaction that she'll have thousands [TS]

00:39:24   of times that are literally thousands of [TS]

00:39:26   times and this is essentially it's the [TS]

00:39:27   first one and she looks mean she goes [TS]

00:39:29   what's going on here and I think I wish [TS]

00:39:32   I could tell you because everybody i [TS]

00:39:35   know myself included once to kneel down [TS]

00:39:38   and say listen here's what's going on [TS]

00:39:39   and here's how you deal with it [TS]

00:39:41   but the reality is i am still in this [TS]

00:39:44   situation that you're in and I still [TS]

00:39:46   don't know how to deal with it [TS]

00:39:48   alright yeah and there's no there's no [TS]

00:39:50   easy way for me to say this and there's [TS]

00:39:53   certainly no way for me to say this that [TS]

00:39:55   it will not be just a dumb cliché but [TS]

00:39:59   like there's just so much stuff in life [TS]

00:40:01   that is simply not fair [TS]

00:40:03   yeah probably every little kid has an [TS]

00:40:05   innate sense of justice [TS]

00:40:07   that's what that's what they call the [TS]

00:40:08   goat nature's president haha every child [TS]

00:40:14   every child every child has an innate [TS]

00:40:17   sense that of fairness that mostly leans [TS]

00:40:21   toward them so it's one of the most [TS]

00:40:22   powerful instincts that they have is [TS]

00:40:25   itself a reservation instinct and it's a [TS]

00:40:27   fairness to them instinct [TS]

00:40:29   there's there's there's not there's they [TS]

00:40:31   haven't evolved enough and very few of [TS]

00:40:33   us have evolved enough to go well let's [TS]

00:40:34   make sure everybody got something here [TS]

00:40:36   it was definitely a sense of like that [TS]

00:40:37   person that they got a balloon they got [TS]

00:40:39   a balloon they got a balloon [TS]

00:40:41   I better have a balloon coming yeah you [TS]

00:40:43   know what we got ice cream like I should [TS]

00:40:45   get ice cream or just that the yeah i [TS]

00:40:47   mean one of the things that were [TS]

00:40:48   experiencing is like well other kids [TS]

00:40:51   throw tantrums in front of their parents [TS]

00:40:53   and say no and and push their hand in [TS]

00:40:56   their parents face and why shouldn't I [TS]

00:41:00   don't have cancer [TS]

00:41:02   a hundred percent and I've I've I've got [TS]

00:41:04   a drumbeat that is such fucking weak [TS]

00:41:07   sauce but it's the only thing I can [TS]

00:41:09   always say which is you know like for [TS]

00:41:12   example we're still standing at the [TS]

00:41:13   crosswalk and as happens people start [TS]

00:41:16   walking before the signal has changed me [TS]

00:41:19   and she starts walking I say no we we [TS]

00:41:21   walk when it's safe for us to walk do [TS]

00:41:24   not rely on what other people do or [TS]

00:41:26   don't do to help you decide what's right [TS]

00:41:27   and safe so you know we're going to do [TS]

00:41:30   this in our own way because that's [TS]

00:41:31   that's who we are [TS]

00:41:32   there are people that we are is that we [TS]

00:41:34   do the right thing we don't do this [TS]

00:41:36   thing because there's a lot we don't do [TS]

00:41:37   this thing because we know that [TS]

00:41:39   certainly could be part of it but we do [TS]

00:41:40   this because this is who we are and I [TS]

00:41:43   don't and I feel like such a such an [TS]

00:41:45   idiot like such a such a 00 limp-wristed [TS]

00:41:47   liberal when I say that but I i hope [TS]

00:41:50   that that becomes true in the same way [TS]

00:41:52   that I hope it's true when I say it to [TS]

00:41:54   my face [TS]

00:41:54   self to get my I say to myself for that [TS]

00:41:57   too [TS]

00:41:57   we could cross you can't cross 50 times [TS]

00:41:59   and we would go against the light and we [TS]

00:42:01   probably be fine but that's not who we [TS]

00:42:02   are going to be it's the core of [TS]

00:42:04   civilization it i mean that internal [TS]

00:42:07   governing is the basis of the idea that [TS]

00:42:10   we should we should all be philosopher [TS]

00:42:12   Kings that we should live in no I mean [TS]

00:42:14   the whole premise plus writings fake it [TS]

00:42:17   till you make it with the whole premise [TS]

00:42:19   of a civil society is that we each are [TS]

00:42:21   internally governed and so don't need I [TS]

00:42:25   don't need restrictive laws i mean both [TS]

00:42:28   there are versions of that on both sides [TS]

00:42:30   of the political spectrum which which [TS]

00:42:33   presumes the best about people and it [TS]

00:42:37   used to be that there was a lot more [TS]

00:42:39   energy devoted to that idea in our [TS]

00:42:41   culture where we where we said to [TS]

00:42:45   ourselves and to one another like this [TS]

00:42:47   is not what we do it's not we're not [TS]

00:42:49   we're not not committing a crime because [TS]

00:42:51   we're afraid of getting caught or [TS]

00:42:53   because there's a video camera watching [TS]

00:42:55   us we're not committing a crime because [TS]

00:42:57   we do we do not commit crimes right and [TS]

00:43:00   this is the problem with the the whole [TS]

00:43:01   of the the whole torture thing the whole [TS]

00:43:04   bush-cheney doctrine in American [TS]

00:43:07   politics is that we squandered we [TS]

00:43:11   squandered that it on a global political [TS]

00:43:15   level the title of our good deeds and a [TS]

00:43:21   measure of moral authority just was just [TS]

00:43:24   50 years that just went out the 60 just [TS]

00:43:26   mount the window just smoked it [TS]

00:43:28   everytime everytime we we built a well [TS]

00:43:30   or rebuild something we blew up like [TS]

00:43:33   that all went away when people saw how [TS]

00:43:34   foolish it we were yeah and and that is [TS]

00:43:37   that's true on a micro level 2 and all [TS]

00:43:39   around us every day you know this is why [TS]

00:43:43   this is why we're always harping on this [TS]

00:43:45   stuff of like the little the little shit [TS]

00:43:47   like don't take your shoes off on a [TS]

00:43:48   airplane don't wear your fedora into a [TS]

00:43:53   restaurant don't stand there with your [TS]

00:43:56   earphones in and it you know and and [TS]

00:44:00   piss on my shoes or whatever and it's [TS]

00:44:01   not because [TS]

00:44:03   there but it's not because it's illegal [TS]

00:44:06   right i mean all the people that are [TS]

00:44:08   like why shouldn't i wear my pajamas on [TS]

00:44:10   an airplane it's like I mean it's not [TS]

00:44:13   illegal is true and like that and that's [TS]

00:44:17   basically like they're starting point [TS]

00:44:19   like it's not illegal it's a free [TS]

00:44:21   country and it's like right but like if [TS]

00:44:23   you don't maintain standards and i would [TS]

00:44:25   suggest high standards personally then [TS]

00:44:29   you can key then you're living in a [TS]

00:44:31   world where if it's not illegal it's [TS]

00:44:32   going to get done and how would you like [TS]

00:44:34   it if your neighbors felt that way to [TS]

00:44:36   you know how would you like it if the [TS]

00:44:37   people that you're encountering were [TS]

00:44:39   also just making decisions based on what [TS]

00:44:41   was legal or not I mean it's your living [TS]

00:44:44   in your living in chaos and we are [TS]

00:44:46   descending culturally we really are [TS]

00:44:49   there there is there is an a we have [TS]

00:44:52   lost a lot and we've gained a lot up in [TS]

00:44:56   the last lesson we're losing a lot of I [TS]

00:44:59   feel this personally as I have to go and [TS]

00:45:03   be around other people less as a matter [TS]

00:45:05   of course I noticed in myself as I have [TS]

00:45:07   to remember to try and do the right [TS]

00:45:08   thing but you know what level do you [TS]

00:45:11   want to do you want to attack it out but [TS]

00:45:13   I think I feel like as a culture just [TS]

00:45:15   observing people are either becoming [TS]

00:45:18   less mindful about how to act and how [TS]

00:45:23   did how to be jostled by other people [TS]

00:45:24   and be okay how to like just deal with [TS]

00:45:27   even that whether it's like getting on [TS]

00:45:29   and off at the train knowing how to wait [TS]

00:45:31   in line at the store like everybody's so [TS]

00:45:34   fucking mad all the time [TS]

00:45:36   yeah and I'm so this is the self [TS]

00:45:38   contradictory because we are the authors [TS]

00:45:40   of keep moving and get out of the way to [TS]

00:45:41   keep moving it out of the way is at the [TS]

00:45:43   heart of it like that's the most basic [TS]

00:45:44   like what what greater kindness in the [TS]

00:45:46   world could there be [TS]

00:45:48   that's absolutely right that then to get [TS]

00:45:50   keep moving and get out of the way we [TS]

00:45:52   really know 100 off don't make huff and [TS]

00:45:54   puff noises in line don't do that [TS]

00:45:56   slower traffic moves right not because [TS]

00:45:59   there's a sign but because not customer [TS]

00:46:01   mean not because we're mean but because [TS]

00:46:03   what that what that suggests what that [TS]

00:46:05   implies is that you are looking in your [TS]

00:46:07   mirrors conscious that there are other [TS]

00:46:09   people on the road [TS]

00:46:10   and you are trying to get out of the way [TS]

00:46:12   of somebody who's got a different who's [TS]

00:46:15   got a different tempo and that is [TS]

00:46:16   courtesy right that's I mean this is the [TS]

00:46:19   thing about tipping your hat right of [TS]

00:46:21   what when we talked about that several [TS]

00:46:24   episodes ago i was reminded about the [TS]

00:46:28   power of tipping your hat that I had [TS]

00:46:30   kind of it in the in the the daily grind [TS]

00:46:34   of the city had had neglected to tip my [TS]

00:46:38   hat all the time right I had I had [TS]

00:46:41   resorted to tipping my hat just when I [TS]

00:46:43   was opening opening the door for [TS]

00:46:45   somebody in a hotel but for the most [TS]

00:46:47   part walking around with my hat on my [TS]

00:46:49   head [TS]

00:46:50   passing people in the street even [TS]

00:46:52   looking at them in nodding I was leaving [TS]

00:46:54   aside that little gesture the fingers to [TS]

00:46:58   the brim of the Hat and a little like [TS]

00:47:00   right tada [TS]

00:47:01   and so we talked about it on the show [TS]

00:47:03   and I went out into the world and [TS]

00:47:05   started tipping my hat to people and [TS]

00:47:07   it's amazing how much better it makes me [TS]

00:47:10   feel and I say it's nice for everybody [TS]

00:47:12   and you get the smiles from people you [TS]

00:47:15   get like the the ipass the guy was like [TS]

00:47:18   two o'clock in the morning i'm walking [TS]

00:47:19   on a on a deserted Street and it's one [TS]

00:47:22   of those streets that's like you're [TS]

00:47:23   walking along you're in the neighborhood [TS]

00:47:24   and then all of a sudden there's trees [TS]

00:47:26   all around and then all of a sudden the [TS]

00:47:28   trees have kind of grown over the street [TS]

00:47:29   and you are and you can't see any lights [TS]

00:47:33   and you're like where the hell what [TS]

00:47:35   neighborhood my end I would thought I [TS]

00:47:36   was in the city and now I'm like I'm in [TS]

00:47:38   a like a scary book and here comes a guy [TS]

00:47:42   down the sidewalk with his hoodie all [TS]

00:47:45   the way over shrouding his eyes and he [TS]

00:47:49   and I are going to meet we're gonna [TS]

00:47:52   cross paths at the most brambly spooky [TS]

00:47:57   little part of this spooky little a 200 [TS]

00:48:01   yards and he's got his hands jammed into [TS]

00:48:04   his pockets and you can see from his [TS]

00:48:06   body language that like she is these [TS]

00:48:10   toughening up for this encounter he's [TS]

00:48:12   taller than I am and he's a black guy [TS]

00:48:15   and he's like I can see him getting [TS]

00:48:19   ready for this [TS]

00:48:21   like [TS]

00:48:23   pass that we're gonna have to make and i [TS]

00:48:25   feel myself getting ready like how's [TS]

00:48:27   this gonna go what are we going to do as [TS]

00:48:29   we pass in this shadowy little spot and [TS]

00:48:34   as we get closer so that was somewhere [TS]

00:48:37   within i contacted each other he makes [TS]

00:48:39   the choice to look at me and he could [TS]

00:48:42   have made the choice to not look at me [TS]

00:48:44   and that would have set a certain tone [TS]

00:48:47   but he makes the choice to experiment [TS]

00:48:50   you know he just sends his eye beams out [TS]

00:48:52   from under from under his hood like [TS]

00:48:55   looks at me and I tip my hat to him and [TS]

00:48:59   we both like he stands up a little [TS]

00:49:04   straighter big smile across his face I [TS]

00:49:07   stand up a little straighter big smile [TS]

00:49:09   across my face and he goes hello and i [TS]

00:49:11   say good evening and we're mirror and [TS]

00:49:13   I'm for like Adam renfaire you know all [TS]

00:49:16   of a sudden you're both the monopoly man [TS]

00:49:17   yeah well they were both balls are like [TS]

00:49:19   hello good evening good sir [TS]

00:49:21   and I'm like and and he you know he goes [TS]

00:49:25   on with his day I go on with my day and [TS]

00:49:27   both of us had what could have been [TS]

00:49:29   there there were two or twenty different [TS]

00:49:31   levels that that could have gone and 18 [TS]

00:49:34   of them were that we just pass in the [TS]

00:49:37   night and have and carry away from that [TS]

00:49:40   encounter some it would have reinforced [TS]

00:49:44   some pre belief about how things are [TS]

00:49:47   right now you both prepped [TS]

00:49:49   yeah we want the rapacity rather side oh [TS]

00:49:51   okay that guy right i mean good thing [TS]

00:49:54   did you know like I'm thinking a good [TS]

00:49:56   thing in the UH mug me and he's thinking [TS]

00:49:58   like a good thing you didn't call the [TS]

00:49:59   cops and make shot me and all those [TS]

00:50:03   narratives pre-existing sort of bullshit [TS]

00:50:06   narratives we could have reinforced in [TS]

00:50:08   that moment and instead we both work [TS]

00:50:10   clowns like goofy dorks which is what we [TS]

00:50:14   all want to be right [TS]

00:50:15   hello and there's the thing is nobody is [TS]

00:50:18   watching right so we can be a little [TS]

00:50:20   dorky there wasn't a third party across [TS]

00:50:22   the street smoke a cigarette who was [TS]

00:50:24   gonna shout out like how you guys are [TS]

00:50:26   dorks right and so we got it we got a [TS]

00:50:29   moment and it's all in that like I mean [TS]

00:50:31   I honestly him look [TS]

00:50:33   at me was was brave and then that little [TS]

00:50:37   tip of the cap was waiting it was a [TS]

00:50:39   gesture i had in my arsenal of [TS]

00:50:42   civilization which is like I receive [TS]

00:50:45   your eye that you're you know you're [TS]

00:50:47   brave gesture of looking and I and I i [TS]

00:50:53   honored sir with a little bit of [TS]

00:50:56   steampunk airship and he thought to [TS]

00:51:01   himself John Roderick seems so much [TS]

00:51:03   nicer than I would have expected haha [TS]

00:51:05   he's like women if it isn't that the guy [TS]

00:51:09   on the music council this episode of [TS]

00:51:14   rock on the line is sponsored by [TS]

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00:52:07   for Roderick on the line we thank [TS]

00:52:09   Squarespace very much for their amazing [TS]

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00:52:15   counselor counselor not so good to see [TS]

00:52:18   it I see it but the thing about being in [TS]

00:52:21   school that I with little kids that I [TS]

00:52:24   realizes is it's it's a it's a it [TS]

00:52:27   reinforces the other thing which is that [TS]

00:52:29   we cannot perfectly understand ourselves [TS]

00:52:31   and the whole premise that's been in [TS]

00:52:34   place ever since I was a kid in our [TS]

00:52:36   culture that the banner is still flown [TS]

00:52:39   by so many people that we are completely [TS]

00:52:43   makeable by culture [TS]

00:52:46   and that weekend that all of these [TS]

00:52:48   things about our house it's like a [TS]

00:52:50   recipe if you get the ingredients right [TS]

00:52:52   and bake it just the right amount of [TS]

00:52:53   time you become a good cultured person [TS]

00:52:55   yeah.well or or in particular just like [TS]

00:52:57   the differences between the genders it's [TS]

00:52:59   a it's a it's another one of these kind [TS]

00:53:02   of issues where it's like oh all these [TS]

00:53:04   things all these character [TS]

00:53:06   characteristics that people exhibit are [TS]

00:53:09   in culture ated in us right male [TS]

00:53:11   violence and a and infamous helplessness [TS]

00:53:16   female helplessness and all these things [TS]

00:53:17   that just seemed like if we could [TS]

00:53:19   perfectly engineer our culture and if we [TS]

00:53:24   could eradicate these ideas that we [TS]

00:53:27   could eradicate these systems from our [TS]

00:53:29   culture that we would be able to achieve [TS]

00:53:31   again like the end goal of like perfect [TS]

00:53:34   equality and then you watch little kids [TS]

00:53:37   and you're like oh my god there's [TS]

00:53:38   nothing engineered about it like they [TS]

00:53:40   they're just there are so many of our [TS]

00:53:44   human traits that are in a tin us and [TS]

00:53:48   not even I mean a lot of them we [TS]

00:53:51   attribute to gender and they aren't even [TS]

00:53:54   there just human traits across a wide [TS]

00:53:57   spectrum and impossible to to codify [TS]

00:54:01   impossible to engineer either in or out [TS]

00:54:05   and all you can do is just create like [TS]

00:54:08   reciprocating cultures of shame and [TS]

00:54:12   unhappiness and and dissatisfaction by [TS]

00:54:15   truck by getting in there and monkeying [TS]

00:54:17   and trying to intervene him and this is [TS]

00:54:19   the thing about like little kids hit [TS]

00:54:21   each other and you can't let him do it [TS]

00:54:23   you say hey we can't hit each other in [TS]

00:54:25   here and they look at you like you're an [TS]

00:54:27   idiot because of course you can hit each [TS]

00:54:29   other like they just did it they just [TS]

00:54:31   showed you how to hit somebody did you [TS]

00:54:32   ever try it it works great [TS]

00:54:35   that person was trying to get my doll [TS]

00:54:36   and I him and now that I stopped what [TS]

00:54:38   are you why are you telling me I can't [TS]

00:54:40   it's the most effective strategy I've [TS]

00:54:41   ever devised says 33 year old brain you [TS]

00:54:44   know you're like well we can't we can't [TS]

00:54:47   hit each other because we don't allow it [TS]

00:54:48   because if we allowed it then we would [TS]

00:54:53   be in a state of perpetual violence with [TS]

00:54:55   each other because we all feel that way [TS]

00:54:57   we walked down the street were just like [TS]

00:54:58   I just wish I could hit all these people [TS]

00:55:00   and then it's like except I don't want [TS]

00:55:02   to get hit myself and I it's really like [TS]

00:55:05   it does come back to a little bit of the [TS]

00:55:06   fair play on some level I well it in the [TS]

00:55:10   sense that only in the sense that you [TS]

00:55:13   don't want to get hit yourself that the [TS]

00:55:15   idea of fair play being that the smaller [TS]

00:55:20   smaller kid gets it worse than the [TS]

00:55:24   bigger kid if everybody's allowed to hit [TS]

00:55:26   each other [TS]

00:55:27   I mean that's the beginning of sort of [TS]

00:55:28   fairness rather than just sort of we [TS]

00:55:32   don't we don't hit each other because we [TS]

00:55:34   don't like to be hit but also this other [TS]

00:55:36   idea of like we can't let the big kid [TS]

00:55:38   get his way over the little kid just [TS]

00:55:40   because he's big and you know that's a [TS]

00:55:43   very human-like I think I think animals [TS]

00:55:46   don't I mean you know like orangutang [TS]

00:55:50   four lions understand the concept of [TS]

00:55:52   don't just bite your friend because he's [TS]

00:55:56   gonna bite you like that's a pretty [TS]

00:55:58   simple idea but the human idea of like [TS]

00:56:01   don't we're not gonna we're all going to [TS]

00:56:04   agree that it's not fair for the big kid [TS]

00:56:07   to get his way more often than the [TS]

00:56:10   little kid that's a thing that the [TS]

00:56:12   animals don't share with us [TS]

00:56:14   that's a that's the beginning of human [TS]

00:56:16   that's the beginning of society and [TS]

00:56:20   that's so you know so much stuff follows [TS]

00:56:23   from that that we're going to school [TS]

00:56:26   were going to intervene and and one of [TS]

00:56:30   the things is that the little kid little [TS]

00:56:35   kid do it as traditionally develop [TS]

00:56:39   strategies to deal with being being [TS]

00:56:41   swatted by the big kid right the little [TS]

00:56:43   kid develops other skills and those [TS]

00:56:46   other skills are part of the part of how [TS]

00:56:49   culture is built culture is kind of [TS]

00:56:51   built by little kids who developed other [TS]

00:56:54   skills to avoid being swatted by big [TS]

00:56:56   kids and when we intervene [TS]

00:57:00   I mean this is it's just it's a it's [TS]

00:57:02   like you're saying it's all an [TS]

00:57:03   engineering problem [TS]

00:57:04   and if you intervene to correct correct [TS]

00:57:06   one thing that you you know one little [TS]

00:57:09   leaky pipe you see that it's all part of [TS]

00:57:12   a system and who knows who knows [TS]

00:57:16   yeah I i guess so i i'm kinda I'm kind [TS]

00:57:19   of glad it's it's not okay for big kids [TS]

00:57:22   to hit little kids but personally but [TS]

00:57:25   I'm what worries me and what I've [TS]

00:57:28   worried about is the just the necessary [TS]

00:57:31   hypocrisy of showing a kid [TS]

00:57:34   hey look here's something i can show you [TS]

00:57:36   some things we're doing this kind of [TS]

00:57:38   behavior instead of that kind of [TS]

00:57:39   behavior is something you'll instantly [TS]

00:57:40   understand anything right we say to [TS]

00:57:42   someone there's there's a natural order [TS]

00:57:43   of things where if you say please and [TS]

00:57:45   thank you [TS]

00:57:46   you will make people happy and you will [TS]

00:57:47   get away with stuff this is a good thing [TS]

00:57:49   learn to say please and thank you it's [TS]

00:57:50   just it's a really nice thing and in [TS]

00:57:52   time you'll learn that that's a nice [TS]

00:57:53   idea you could say things like it's [TS]

00:57:55   better to be fair rather than not fair [TS]

00:57:57   but then we also have to do these things [TS]

00:57:59   that seem completely unfair [TS]

00:58:01   last night I had with my daughter got up [TS]

00:58:03   after she got into bed and my wife and I [TS]

00:58:05   were watching TV and she came in she was [TS]

00:58:08   mad because she couldn't watch TV [TS]

00:58:09   so what what do I say when I say when I [TS]

00:58:11   say which is like it well it's your [TS]

00:58:12   bedtime now our bedtimes later we're [TS]

00:58:14   watching TV like you know should I [TS]

00:58:16   apologize for that no but that is [TS]

00:58:19   inherently unfair to a little kid and I [TS]

00:58:21   don't know but just from their point of [TS]

00:58:23   view that's absolutely unfair like you [TS]

00:58:25   guys get to go have fun and I have to go [TS]

00:58:26   to bed you get to use your iPad whenever [TS]

00:58:28   you want and I don't like that's really [TS]

00:58:30   hypocritical on the face of it and it's [TS]

00:58:33   but you know so I guess what I'm saying [TS]

00:58:34   is I think what's complicated is we're [TS]

00:58:37   asking kids on the one hand to see [TS]

00:58:38   certain kinds of things as being natural [TS]

00:58:41   law and like is not just a good idea to [TS]

00:58:43   do it that way isn't it just a good idea [TS]

00:58:45   to close the refrigerator door so we [TS]

00:58:46   don't waste energy and stuff like that [TS]

00:58:47   and then other times we have to say well [TS]

00:58:49   except there are times when the thing [TS]

00:58:51   that seems really natural is actually [TS]

00:58:53   the opposite of that and you just need [TS]

00:58:55   to learn that right that some of the [TS]

00:58:57   right i try to you know I don't have an [TS]

00:58:59   answer to that I think some of those [TS]

00:59:00   things confusing some of those things we [TS]

00:59:01   need you to just learn like as in just [TS]

00:59:04   memorize this rule and and one day it'll [TS]

00:59:07   make sense and some things it's like we [TS]

00:59:09   want you to learn the concept that [TS]

00:59:11   governs this as a thank you but don't [TS]

00:59:14   get in a white van that i still find [TS]

00:59:16   that very complicated thing [TS]

00:59:17   right right well and the thing is that I [TS]

00:59:19   don't you know I watching watching this [TS]

00:59:21   experience with kids [TS]

00:59:23   uh my instinct is to extrapolate it to [TS]

00:59:26   adults because I feel like ninety-nine [TS]

00:59:27   percent of adults interactions are kid [TS]

00:59:29   interactions that are just extrapolated [TS]

00:59:31   to like interactions plus iphones yeah [TS]

00:59:34   kid interactions plus the the arrogance [TS]

00:59:37   of feeling like because you've been [TS]

00:59:38   alive for 25 more years your spew [TS]

00:59:41   understand things any better [TS]

00:59:43   and the thing is that I to believe that [TS]

00:59:48   the big kids shouldn't be able to hit [TS]

00:59:50   the little kid like I believe that is an [TS]

00:59:53   evolution and I don't think that that I [TS]

00:59:56   think that that rule is true in America [TS]

00:59:58   and inns in debt [TS]

00:59:58   and inns in debt [TS]

01:00:00   mark and in in in germany and in you [TS]

01:00:05   know like in certain places in the world [TS]

01:00:08   but i don't think that that rule is [TS]

01:00:11   necessarily true in Russia or the [TS]

01:00:13   Ukraine or Serbia right now let alone in [TS]

01:00:16   a bit places that I haven't been but [TS]

01:00:21   have suspicions about right and and but [TS]

01:00:24   but what I don't what I mission using [TS]

01:00:26   it's unrealistic in some cultures to say [TS]

01:00:28   that that's a natural law [TS]

01:00:29   oh I don't think is a natural law and [TS]

01:00:31   this is the point I'm making the big kid [TS]

01:00:33   should not hit the little kid is not a [TS]

01:00:35   natural law it is that it is a thought [TS]

01:00:38   technology and the problem with us in [TS]

01:00:41   America is that a hundred years ago we [TS]

01:00:43   still recognize that that was the [TS]

01:00:44   thought technology and we were proud of [TS]

01:00:47   having invented this idea and it was [TS]

01:00:50   part of you know it was part of our [TS]

01:00:52   legacy of Western Europe that we had off [TS]

01:00:57   you know honor and you didn't hurt the [TS]

01:00:58   little guy and you you know women and [TS]

01:01:01   children first off the boat like these [TS]

01:01:03   were concepts that we were justifiably [TS]

01:01:07   proud of because they were inventions [TS]

01:01:10   there's nothing natural about that ok [TS]

01:01:13   and in and if you let human beings go [TS]

01:01:18   even a little bit that though that you [TS]

01:01:21   see even in modern cultures that those [TS]

01:01:24   rules are not that that that's like [TS]

01:01:26   pretty far down the road you know the [TS]

01:01:29   big man still is in charge in most of [TS]

01:01:34   the world still here and we're all [TS]

01:01:37   sharing the same internet but it doesn't [TS]

01:01:40   change the fact that he walk into a [TS]

01:01:42   village somewhere and you see that the [TS]

01:01:45   big guys in charge and the little guy [TS]

01:01:47   comes up to me and says hey but I any [TS]

01:01:48   kind of wax him and everybody goes oh [TS]

01:01:51   shit you know right thats that is that's [TS]

01:01:54   the that's the that's the law the normal [TS]

01:01:57   law so the fact that we have the fact [TS]

01:01:59   that we've made these advances these [TS]

01:02:01   cultural advances we have the idea we [TS]

01:02:04   have in we've expanded the idea of [TS]

01:02:06   fairness [TS]

01:02:07   what is it has also happened to us in [TS]

01:02:10   the last hundred years is that we've [TS]

01:02:11   stopped [TS]

01:02:12   recognizing that those are and not even [TS]

01:02:16   the last hundred years we've stopped [TS]

01:02:18   recognizing that those are thought [TS]

01:02:21   technologies and started to talk about [TS]

01:02:23   them as though their natural rights and [TS]

01:02:25   if you if you if you start making policy [TS]

01:02:27   if you start living your own life [TS]

01:02:29   according to this expanded idea of [TS]

01:02:33   natural rights that's what causes causes [TS]

01:02:37   a tremendous amount of confusion a lot [TS]

01:02:39   of figure you're gonna have a lot of [TS]

01:02:41   cognitive dissonance have a lot of [TS]

01:02:42   talking two incidents and a lot of a lot [TS]

01:02:44   of out it's a lot of outrage because [TS]

01:02:47   you're standing there saying how dare [TS]

01:02:49   you [TS]

01:02:50   and you're saying that because you [TS]

01:02:52   believe that that somehow the the the [TS]

01:02:57   intrinsic level of Justice is a lot [TS]

01:03:01   higher than it is and what you're what [TS]

01:03:03   you're not doing is giving credit to all [TS]

01:03:06   the work that went into establishing [TS]

01:03:08   that bulwark against all against all [TS]

01:03:12   against a Hobbesian world and all that [TS]

01:03:16   work is our legacy and I and I [TS]

01:03:18   understand the culturally there's a lot [TS]

01:03:21   we spent a lot of effort to kind of tear [TS]

01:03:24   down the Western European colonial the [TS]

01:03:29   idea that civilization came from the you [TS]

01:03:36   know from the english courts or whatever [TS]

01:03:38   but in in stripping away all of that and [TS]

01:03:44   saying like no no we need to we need to [TS]

01:03:46   incorporate all the the traditions of [TS]

01:03:48   every culture we don't want to live in [TS]

01:03:51   this sort of dominant mode [TS]

01:03:54   we've forgotten that some of those some [TS]

01:03:58   of those traditions of of chivalry and [TS]

01:04:01   english law were novel only occurred in [TS]

01:04:06   one place are now widely adopted but are [TS]

01:04:09   ultimately a an artificial overlay that [TS]

01:04:13   if we want if we believe in we need to [TS]

01:04:16   we need to protect [TS]

01:04:18   and that begins with understanding that [TS]

01:04:20   it is it's like air conditioning that we [TS]

01:04:26   invented it it it demonstrable he makes [TS]

01:04:28   life better but if we don't maintain it [TS]

01:04:31   then it stops working again and when the [TS]

01:04:35   air conditioning goes off it doesn't do [TS]

01:04:37   any good to sit in a hot room and and [TS]

01:04:39   scream but that the air conditioning [TS]

01:04:42   went off you have to get up and fix the [TS]

01:04:44   air conditioning and that is that's true [TS]

01:04:46   of that's true really of a system of [TS]

01:04:49   justice to that was that was some really [TS]

01:04:53   good explaining you know what you get a [TS]

01:04:55   bell [TS]

01:04:56   I'm good that's a little bit of [TS]

01:04:57   mansplaining yeah we get what I want you [TS]

01:05:03   to mansplain something to me [TS]

01:05:04   sure I do not oh my god i'm gonna get so [TS]

01:05:08   many angry letter [TS]

01:05:09   oh god please I do not have this woman i [TS]

01:05:13   do not understand [TS]

01:05:15   Harry Nilsson oh oh you're gonna get a [TS]

01:05:18   sad letter i'm gonna get so many sad [TS]

01:05:21   letters [TS]

01:05:21   well you're gonna get several set [TS]

01:05:22   letters from one guy could think of I [TS]

01:05:24   can think of a few guys that are going [TS]

01:05:25   to send me some settlers on gone [TS]

01:05:27   head-to-head on Harry Nilsson before we [TS]

01:05:28   because we've gone we we've gone [TS]

01:05:30   head-to-head on so many things you have [TS]

01:05:32   in a civil society and you realize [TS]

01:05:34   that's a conversation you guys can't [TS]

01:05:35   even have that but here's the thing i'm [TS]

01:05:37   not against Harry Nilsson I everything [TS]

01:05:40   that he does i love obviously love his [TS]

01:05:43   voice I love is don't get why he's so [TS]

01:05:45   big i love his hits right but the thing [TS]

01:05:49   that everybody talks about his [TS]

01:05:51   songwriting his miraculous songwriting [TS]

01:05:53   it seems to me that he is just sort of [TS]

01:05:57   me and ring both is both of both uh like [TS]

01:06:03   lyrically and melodically meandering [TS]

01:06:06   down a path where he's kind of singing [TS]

01:06:08   some some thoughts it with a sort of [TS]

01:06:11   sing song melody and you know you get [TS]

01:06:15   halfway through the song you get to the [TS]

01:06:16   end of the song and it's like huh well [TS]

01:06:18   yeah i'm sure i like that that was that [TS]

01:06:23   was good [TS]

01:06:23   over but but i do not have a i do not [TS]

01:06:27   have this feeling that he is at that he [TS]

01:06:29   is at the dawn [TS]

01:06:30   of a certain kind of pop that didn't [TS]

01:06:35   exist before I mean maybe I Asia maybe [TS]

01:06:37   it's that it didn't exist before and I [TS]

01:06:39   I've grown up since then and so I don't [TS]

01:06:42   see the novelty that maybe was a parent [TS]

01:06:45   in 1969 or something [TS]

01:06:47   I think it's the all Merlin man's [TS]

01:06:49   playing this to you and part of it is [TS]

01:06:50   the rise of the documentary mean the the [TS]

01:06:54   documentary that will almost certainly [TS]

01:06:56   feature chuck klosterman thurston moore [TS]

01:06:58   and flee at some point [TS]

01:07:00   good girl be there good as you know [TS]

01:07:02   what's up a log was quietly passed in [TS]

01:07:05   the days after nine eleven that they [TS]

01:07:06   have to be in every music documentary [TS]

01:07:08   where you know Martin Scorsese sitting [TS]

01:07:11   in a theater meaning under me like a lot [TS]

01:07:13   maybe haha like what's playing [TS]

01:07:17   I you know it's funny though cause like [TS]

01:07:19   you know we will i started watching the [TS]

01:07:20   documentary last night on nas and the [TS]

01:07:22   making of illmatic which I've listened [TS]

01:07:24   to about twice or three times i listen [TS]

01:07:27   to mostly because of jay-z and their you [TS]

01:07:29   know their feud [TS]

01:07:30   it's a really really good record I can't [TS]

01:07:32   like I couldn't wrap it to you the way I [TS]

01:07:34   could like a public enemy record but I [TS]

01:07:36   just thinking as I watched that was [TS]

01:07:37   really well done beautifully made [TS]

01:07:39   watch the first few minutes of it to my [TS]

01:07:40   daughter woke up I just want to ask you [TS]

01:07:42   did I have the option that you would [TS]

01:07:43   wrap me public enemy records [TS]

01:07:45   chuckles it if i invite if I had known I [TS]

01:07:48   had that option I would have asked for a [TS]

01:07:49   lot sooner 1989 the number or another [TS]

01:07:52   summer sound of the fucking drama music [TS]

01:07:54   in your heart because I know you got [TS]

01:07:55   soul brothers and sisters John Wayne [TS]

01:07:58   most never meant shit to mean straight [TS]

01:08:01   up raises that sucker was simple [TS]

01:08:02   Elvis Elvis was here at the most that's [TS]

01:08:04   right well done John Wayne to else was a [TS]

01:08:07   hero to most but he never meant shit to [TS]

01:08:08   me straight up great stocking stuffer [TS]

01:08:10   simple and plain by the fucking man John [TS]

01:08:12   way and i'm hoping bucket on prime x [TS]

01:08:14   plus I'm am most of my heroes don't [TS]

01:08:16   appear on no stamps [TS]

01:08:17   yes boy did I ever listened to that [TS]

01:08:19   record a lot but you know if you don't [TS]

01:08:23   understand I got no problem [TS]

01:08:24   understanding what I'm saying is it's [TS]

01:08:27   it's funny because think about like okay [TS]

01:08:29   because the heavily lauded recent [TS]

01:08:31   documentaries that were that are like [TS]

01:08:33   you know good like the 20 feet from [TS]

01:08:35   stardom about backup singers my muscle [TS]

01:08:38   shoals nom [TS]

01:08:40   there's been a lot of these like [TS]

01:08:41   high-profile not netflix created [TS]

01:08:43   documentaries [TS]

01:08:44   then our about weed or food that where [TS]

01:08:48   you watch them and the thing is even if [TS]

01:08:49   you don't know anything about that [TS]

01:08:51   person like what other ones the things [TS]

01:08:54   things about Daniel Johnston like almost [TS]

01:08:56   nobody's heard Daniel Johnston what they [TS]

01:08:58   think of them as ask this character but [TS]

01:09:00   you're talking about him there's [TS]

01:09:01   something about like once somebody makes [TS]

01:09:03   a documentary about you like in a [TS]

01:09:06   well-made documentary you kind of can't [TS]

01:09:09   help it disappear into that artists even [TS]

01:09:10   if you've never heard them before [TS]

01:09:12   wonder if that's part of it I mean [TS]

01:09:14   sounds to me like you're saying you're [TS]

01:09:15   saying Nelson maybe he goes somewhere up [TS]

01:09:17   with an eric carmen look a good pop [TS]

01:09:19   songwriter but not like well yeah but [TS]

01:09:21   it's the thing I mean a long time but I [TS]

01:09:23   mean I understand like the resurgence [TS]

01:09:25   based on on like like people are looking [TS]

01:09:28   back in time and try and we're doing [TS]

01:09:30   kind of a northern soul thing except [TS]

01:09:32   with our own culture everything like [TS]

01:09:35   what are some of the great the great [TS]

01:09:37   songwriters that we never heard of [TS]

01:09:39   let's go back fine like the good ones [TS]

01:09:41   but in 1970 like randy newman and but [TS]

01:09:46   they just the way I say his name randy [TS]

01:09:49   newman and and Brian Wilson when the [TS]

01:09:53   plant is still talking very forgiving [TS]

01:09:58   you baby but here's got to go dive guide [TS]

01:10:01   internationally civilization that [TS]

01:10:04   becoming really should but all those [TS]

01:10:09   guys they all love Nelson let you know I [TS]

01:10:12   think he is and I'm not slagging here [TS]

01:10:15   but i think i think of him kind of like [TS]

01:10:17   Nick Drake or maybe kind of like oh shit [TS]

01:10:22   i just hadn't lost it [TS]

01:10:23   maybe to a certain extent Jimmy Webb me [TS]

01:10:26   where these characters that were very [TS]

01:10:27   unusual for their time but nick drake [TS]

01:10:31   what you like two records if you go to [TS]

01:10:33   records with them about nick drake is [TS]

01:10:35   Jake's you got it like you know I mean [TS]

01:10:37   it's he had one sound and this is the [TS]

01:10:39   thing about a sound right if you make [TS]

01:10:41   too if you make two records and even one [TS]

01:10:43   of them just has a sound all the way [TS]

01:10:45   through it [TS]

01:10:46   yeah it's like that's all he needed to [TS]

01:10:47   do he just invented a sound and then he [TS]

01:10:49   can go or not invented but he he [TS]

01:10:53   perfected a sound and then he can get on [TS]

01:10:55   the [TS]

01:10:56   load and go across the water mhm uh the [TS]

01:10:58   thing about the thing about Nelson is [TS]

01:11:00   that every song is different and so it's [TS]

01:11:04   not clear what the you know what the [TS]

01:11:06   connection is he didn't invent a sound [TS]

01:11:09   right he's got a great voice but he's a [TS]

01:11:12   he and I don't know I i have to spend [TS]

01:11:15   more time now where do you stand on what [TS]

01:11:17   do you stand on Sage on deck you feeling [TS]

01:11:22   try to get some other documentary people [TS]

01:11:25   or scott walker you gotta feeling on [TS]

01:11:26   Scott Walker documentary I haven't seen [TS]

01:11:30   Scott Walker document hello brother you [TS]

01:11:32   need to see that one guy's got a lot of [TS]

01:11:35   fucking balls in the air [TS]

01:11:36   Scott Walker you're saying is not [TS]

01:11:37   walking from the Walker brothers and so [TS]

01:11:39   basically in the Walker brothers he did [TS]

01:11:41   those righteous brothers style songs [TS]

01:11:43   covers and then like the last Walker [TS]

01:11:46   brothers record was pretty fucking weird [TS]

01:11:48   then he went solo and each subsequent [TS]

01:11:50   record of his has been more like totally [TS]

01:11:52   bananas in the documentary you can see [TS]

01:11:55   him recording he recorded about every 10 [TS]

01:11:57   years now and so that the percussion [TS]

01:11:59   involves like getting a side of beef and [TS]

01:12:00   stuff and it's harrowing and and [TS]

01:12:03   delightful you know you know you know [TS]

01:12:05   the singer the unique you've heard of [TS]

01:12:07   you know it's yellow area for sure [TS]

01:12:09   uh ah I feel like I need to I need to [TS]

01:12:15   watch some more music documentaries one [TS]

01:12:16   thing we're gonna do this music month [TS]

01:12:18   you know what we should we should just [TS]

01:12:21   make this music month we should talk [TS]

01:12:22   about you like a whole time [TS]

01:12:24   yeah I i do I feel like I feel like as i [TS]

01:12:28   am thinking about starting to rejoin the [TS]

01:12:33   songwriting game and wondering like what [TS]

01:12:37   my place in it is and what I what I have [TS]

01:12:41   to contribute to the songwriting a pile [TS]

01:12:46   get your dienophile you know watching [TS]

01:12:50   these guys uh and and and gals who do it [TS]

01:12:54   successfully and find their own way [TS]

01:12:58   through you know like I mean I I don't [TS]

01:13:02   understand Joni Mitchell either but i [TS]

01:13:05   definitely understand [TS]

01:13:08   that without Joni Mitchell there would [TS]

01:13:09   be no Sheryl Crow and without show crow [TS]

01:13:15   where would we be [TS]

01:13:18   so in that sense thanks i was we keep [TS]

01:13:21   unknown he's saying a base you coming to [TS]

01:13:26   college to a more gets up every morning [TS]

01:13:31   and writes a song that's what he does [TS]

01:13:33   Randy Newman gets up every morning as a [TS]

01:13:35   cup of coffee as a bagel when he goes [TS]

01:13:38   down to the studio and he writes songs [TS]

01:13:39   until it until it's quittin time went to [TS]

01:13:42   bid leave now feeling kind of fell to [TS]

01:13:45   get a good movement bells [TS]

01:13:47   when you gonna up that he means the [TS]

01:13:51   sheepdog at the punch-out machine [TS]

01:13:54   hey Frank during a Randy area [TS]

01:14:00   ok that's good but Scott Walker 30 [TS]

01:14:05   century man [TS]