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0:00:19hello hey John
0:00:26hi Merlin how's it going pretty good and
0:00:30everything's different
0:00:31yeah always a change i don't so
0:00:36different right now everything's
0:00:37different yeah you know it's like
0:00:39Heraclitus says you can never dip your
0:00:41foot into the same skype
0:00:43mm-hmm if you sit on the bridge and
0:00:46watch the skype go buy it will always be
0:00:48a new skype well and yet it's and yet
0:00:51it's always the same skype
0:00:53by the time I see a cloud that looks
0:00:54like something and I call my daughter
0:00:56over it doesn't look like that anymore
0:00:57you know that it's been so long since I
0:01:00looked up at a cloud and saw a dog or
0:01:03talk or whatever it is like I don't I
0:01:06had that i have not had that experience
0:01:07in a long time and I think it might be
0:01:08that the clouds in Seattle first of all
0:01:11these guys are always blue and see all
0:01:12the bliss guys ever seen if memory
0:01:14serves our internet that's right that's
0:01:15right but the living room / actually
0:01:17into seattle who carried along
0:01:20yeah I'm sure period comma been to
0:01:22everywhere he traveled a lot
0:01:24you know those guys that generation of
0:01:25guys there banging showgirls to a time
0:01:28what time what do i wear but uh but when
0:01:32there are clouds here they don't look
0:01:34like anything they just look like they
0:01:35look like film on a soup
0:01:38yeah this is the time of year the really
0:01:41depressing time here in San Francisco
0:01:42where we just have one continuous cloud
0:01:44that's called the weather
0:01:45yeah and as far as you know it goes to
0:01:48japan yeah as far as you know it just it
0:01:50starts at your house and it goes to
0:01:51japan
0:01:52yeah it's a super SuperDuper weird innit
0:01:57we haven't talked again it's been a
0:01:58while we had a little love little by
0:02:00period you've been traveling a lot and
0:02:02and I got some things on a card here i
0:02:04want to ask you about I want to go for
0:02:07things on a car was gonna toss these out
0:02:08and it's a little bit old school like
0:02:10that fever
0:02:11I've got your office on about your fever
0:02:13your office your assistance if you want
0:02:14to talk about it and all the President's
0:02:16Men okay in that order
0:02:19todd you know you can ask the last one
0:02:21first if you want how you were you were
0:02:23you were down so I had a very strange
0:02:25fever so you know a fever that uh that I
0:02:29could not account for and now in
0:02:33retrospect i do feel like i had i do
0:02:36feel like i had an unusual um illness
0:02:38but it coincided with four very hot days
0:02:42know so i was i was tossing around
0:02:45feverish and you know just the like that
0:02:48thing you get in the night where you
0:02:50wake up and you just your whole bed is
0:02:52just a us a puddle
0:02:54yeah you're like there's no way I could
0:02:56get comfortable but I don't want to go
0:02:57anywhere else because I'm just gonna
0:02:58ruin whatever that is
0:03:00yeah but then of course it's also like
0:03:0285 degrees at night and a and so that
0:03:06explains some of it but what what the
0:03:10problem is is that since I stopped
0:03:12eating gluten uh all of my normal like
0:03:18like measurements of illness have to
0:03:23change because i used to get you know
0:03:27these terrible sinus infections and
0:03:29since I stopped eating gluten i have not
0:03:31had a single sinus infection Wow
0:03:33and so I'm i have that i have this flu
0:03:36basically is probably what it was some
0:03:38kind of you know some mild bird flew
0:03:41over small bird a small breasts yeah
0:03:44just like actually chickadee birdie or
0:03:47yeah a goldfinch you know your
0:03:50adventures are the washington state bird
0:03:51goldfinch writing that down it didn't
0:03:53have that goldfinch um but but but so i
0:03:56have this sickness and i'm waiting for
0:03:58it to develop secondary symptoms i'm
0:04:00waiting to sit with my head all clogged
0:04:03and coughing up big you know Esther's
0:04:05and just like terrible cold and it and
0:04:08it never met estate sizes into my normal
0:04:12cold
0:04:14and so you know i know from colds i know
0:04:18a lot of cold the and so I sit there and
0:04:21I'm like what kind of illness is this
0:04:23this isn't it this is this is like in
0:04:25one sense terrible it hurts but in
0:04:28another sense it's not it's not
0:04:29producing any of the the next level like
0:04:32stuff where I'm really uncomfortable
0:04:34right and so anyway it's gone now and I
0:04:38and I did it
0:04:39vaya con Dios on to the next person but
0:04:42but you know you have to recalibrate
0:04:46it's a different bar now you you had
0:04:48just gotten used to this long slog of
0:04:51co-leaders used to get em fair amount of
0:04:53coals right i did i had a lot of colds
0:04:55yeah you know you you drive yourself
0:04:56pretty hard it's true but but
0:05:00so normally what would happen is i would
0:05:01have a I would have a five-day fever
0:05:03like that and then no matter what I did
0:05:07if I spent five days if I spent five
0:05:10days curled up in a rag toast and
0:05:13antibiotics at the end of five days
0:05:17no matter what happens no matter what
0:05:19else I could have I could spend 15 days
0:05:22sick and then at the end of that period
0:05:26then i would get a sinus infection and
0:05:29and a lung infection out and I would and
0:05:32then I would have to spend another you
0:05:33know eight to ten days clearing that out
0:05:35it just it just happened like clockwork
0:05:37so that so that it almost felt like when
0:05:39I got a cold
0:05:40I should just go run in the rain because
0:05:43no matter what i did i was going to get
0:05:45this next level of of illness as you get
0:05:48older you get used to that rhythm it's
0:05:50like when you realize you're getting
0:05:51stressed bump and you like bring it on
0:05:52yeah you know I don't want to wait you
0:05:53know I'm gonna pop this i'm not going to
0:05:55wait six days but this thing to be more
0:05:57lingering on my mouth covered my face
0:05:59with sores covered let's do this thing
0:06:02let's do it let's go but so now
0:06:05mmm he said that you sounded you sound
0:06:08very healthy inhale you know I my vital
0:06:11young guy in his in his early middle age
0:06:13now I mean I sometimes i have to get up
0:06:16five times at night to pee
0:06:17yeah but I was complaining about that
0:06:19the other day to my mom I was like I
0:06:20don't know i need i think i need to see
0:06:22a doctor haven't been to a doctor and a
0:06:23couple of years I think I should go and
0:06:24she's like why do you need to see a
0:06:26doctor
0:06:27that's exactly the kind of innovation
0:06:28and I like and I said you know what mom
0:06:31I'm a middle-aged guy middle-aged guys
0:06:33have to go to the doctor sometimes
0:06:35because because things happen to them
0:06:36and she was like a doctors are all back
0:06:38wax and I said seriously I you know I
0:06:42have to get up a lot of times in the
0:06:43night to pee and she said welcome to
0:06:46middle a shit and I was like oh god the
0:06:52process is started talking about health
0:06:53with people it's certainly talking about
0:06:55birth or like bad relationships
0:06:58everybody's got their like horror story
0:07:00about the person you know if he hadn't
0:07:02uh if I hadn't blown my boyfriend found
0:07:04his funny ball he never would have
0:07:06discovered he had cancer when he was 27
0:07:08that late and like first of all I do not
0:07:10want to feel my balls i had two friends
0:07:12that totally got to stick you lurk
0:07:14answer in their twenties
0:07:15really oh yeah big day did they have
0:07:18their balls taking em well I think
0:07:20that's part of the process i think i was
0:07:23only one ball
0:07:24yeah that house that Hitler I'm not I've
0:07:26never said I don't know
0:07:28sure I'll have one more he and I don't
0:07:30go like to the locker rooms or anything
0:07:32the Sinai Hitler had only one big o
0:07:34Himmler had to but they were small no
0:07:37killer had something similar i need to
0:07:40go back to school but i'm gonna figure
0:07:41about you that I need more people like
0:07:43your mom around me just say listen leave
0:07:46it you do not need to go to those people
0:07:50well because you know i i'm also prone
0:07:52to I mean I don't Adam I don't want this
0:07:55show to turn into just some kind of show
0:07:56for the ladies but I am prone to moles
0:07:59to moles
0:08:01oh you know people tell you to worry
0:08:02about moles I got a little more over
0:08:04here I got a little moreover they watch
0:08:06your moles you get a chart you can
0:08:07measure them see if they have an uneven
0:08:09surface
0:08:10mhm so enjoy and we're supposed to worry
0:08:12about I've been getting moles my old
0:08:14life and every new girlfriend I would
0:08:17have would be like you didn't used to
0:08:19have this mole and i would say a pretty
0:08:22sure there was something there pretty
0:08:24sure was some kind of mobile a rapport
0:08:26and she was like yeah but it never
0:08:27looked like this before
0:08:29yeah I'd be like
0:08:31I'm pretty sure it looked like something
0:08:33like that before and she's like exactly
0:08:35that's the problem
0:08:36they're not supposed to change and so
0:08:38they would hustle me off to some doctor
0:08:40and I'd go sit in his lot of his office
0:08:43with my shirt off and he would look at
0:08:45the moles and go dad that's not a
0:08:47problem that's not a bad mole and i
0:08:49would say why don't you tell me what the
0:08:51bad balls look like so that I can
0:08:53reassure people and he would say well
0:08:59you know it's more it's kind of like
0:09:01it's kind of like Supreme Court
0:09:02definition of porn you know when you see
0:09:04it right and I'm like that's no no you
0:09:07know it when you see it so tell me what
0:09:10it is that this isn't some likes this
0:09:12isn't some Masonic ritual that you have
0:09:15to keep concealed from people
0:09:17he's going to get the business either
0:09:18way yeah give me the five points that i
0:09:21should be looking for his listicle on is
0:09:2477 surprising moles yeah you're not
0:09:27going to believe what metastasize next
0:09:29and he says well you don't you know if
0:09:32they change and I'm like well they don't
0:09:34they all change this one changed and you
0:09:36didn't have a problem he's like well
0:09:38they're uneven and I'm like there aren't
0:09:40even there there there moles can cut out
0:09:43there not fucking pie plates they're
0:09:45moles exchanged a change the change
0:09:49he's like well if there be if they're
0:09:50black you know these are dark enough and
0:09:53I was like oh I see it's a it's a
0:09:55pigment scale and then you know what I
0:09:59did then I just stopped giving a shit
0:10:00about it every one of my moles takes
0:10:02over then that will be my superpower
0:10:06yes i'll be the mole will be the man is
0:10:08already a moment but you came down
0:10:10here's the thing with doctors you know I
0:10:13feel like you're describing is perfectly
0:10:15because I feel like whatever sentence
0:10:17comes out of a doctor's mouth tacitly
0:10:20always ends with comma dummy that's not
0:10:23a mole dummy you get your moles checked
0:10:26dummy in bed in bed haha i feel this way
0:10:33about doctors and lawyers and that hall
0:10:35and make an appointment you gotta find
0:10:37parking
0:10:38there John there's always forms to fill
0:10:40out there was no many forms
0:10:41you don't have the time they send you to
0:10:43a different doctor it's like you know
0:10:46the story tell me the stories like well
0:10:48you should go see this guy ear nose and
0:10:50throat guy like ah now i gotta make
0:10:52another appointment
0:10:53it's like going to bestbuy and you think
0:10:55I fuck I gotta buy a USB cord and you go
0:10:59there like hmm yeah I could be USB cord
0:11:02but you should probably go to the apple
0:11:03store and you know they got to sing to
0:11:05the specialist and that's a whole thing
0:11:07and there and that this may be a part of
0:11:11this maybe part of the problem of who we
0:11:14are and our unchecked white privilege
0:11:16but i have never heard a thing come out
0:11:19of a doctor or a lawyer mouth but I
0:11:22didn't feel like yeah I knew that
0:11:24already
0:11:25and also I could have figured that out
0:11:29and about in about 20 minutes if I
0:11:32didn't if I hadn't come in here thinking
0:11:35that you were a magic source of her you
0:11:38know I mean like what's the answer to
0:11:40this problem
0:11:41oh hmm it's it's pretty much what I
0:11:43thought and we you know we imbue these
0:11:48people with magic powers because of
0:11:50their what three years in school I have
0:11:52fucking sandwiches in my refrigerator
0:11:54that are older than three years or less
0:11:55and three years in school as i get older
0:11:58as and I know you know this already i do
0:12:02not think that three years in school is
0:12:04that big of a deal
0:12:05they're also very young a lot of them so
0:12:08yeah I think of a doctor is being an
0:12:10old-ass man no privilege involved but
0:12:12I'm just saying when you meet people who
0:12:14are really young and they still and
0:12:16their sentences with a question
0:12:18myocardial infarction I had a doctor
0:12:23like that a doctor hulu get looked at me
0:12:25like well here's what the first thing I
0:12:28had a doctor who looked at me like he
0:12:29was afraid of me that's just setting a
0:12:33tone
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0:13:42supporting Roderick online we could not
0:13:44do without i do not want my doctor to be
0:13:47afraid of me and this guy with he was
0:13:49young he was small he had you know he
0:13:52had been to he i think he went to
0:13:54medical school in Guiana like I didn't
0:13:57there was nothing about it
0:13:59nothing went down there for a couple
0:14:00weeks and decided to just get an MD
0:14:01while he was there
0:14:02I'm sure he got I'm sure his MD is from
0:14:05a reputable school like the University
0:14:06of Pennsylvania mm but whatever it was
0:14:08it would they did not teach him in
0:14:11medical school not to like be visibly
0:14:14afraid of of your patients and so
0:14:17probably smaller they're the people you
0:14:19know what if they are not smaller in
0:14:21Pennsylvania out like down in Guyana if
0:14:23he was in the guyanese they're probably
0:14:26you know they're probably smaller they
0:14:27probably have more interesting
0:14:28constellations of moles they're not used
0:14:30to have a pair of a man like you
0:14:32that's right they're not used to submit
0:14:33and I mean honestly I did have a bowie
0:14:35knife sticking out of my side when I
0:14:36walked in so that was that me maybe
0:14:39intimidated him at first
0:14:42painting again st.martin arrow yeah yeah
0:14:45I got into I've got into a little little
0:14:48disagreement little fisticuffs with a
0:14:49guy down in front of the toyota
0:14:50dealership should've seen the other guy
0:14:55i can activate at my oil changed here so
0:14:59I was not like i would get my oil
0:15:00changed the toyota dealership that's
0:15:02another example of something you know
0:15:04you never take that part of the deal and
0:15:05you have changed here dummy
0:15:07my wife needs oil changed on our car and
0:15:09she's supposed to take it to the
0:15:11dealership right because they have the
0:15:13tension bored so they have the 10w30
0:15:16point five or whatever up and everything
0:15:19done mounted by the way warranty if you
0:15:22don't fix the viscosity did you know
0:15:24that Volkswagens have a special
0:15:27quote-unquote auntie theft a nut on
0:15:35there on their wheels so you know you've
0:15:38got your you got your five or six bolts
0:15:40that hold your wheel on one of them you
0:15:43know the five of them are are a normal
0:15:46both that you can remove with a with a
0:15:49tire iron and one of them is a special
0:15:52star bolt and in order to remove it you
0:15:56have to have a special star a adapter
0:16:00what
0:16:01yeah and so I borrowed a Volkswagen
0:16:04actually a long time ago and you get a
0:16:08flat tire on one of these things nobody
0:16:10can change it even triple they can't
0:16:12help you
0:16:13wow if you don't have the star bolt
0:16:16which of course is the first thing that
0:16:17every box wagon owner loses right i mean
0:16:21how are you going to keep ahold of this
0:16:23little thing
0:16:23gosh and how it must be very very
0:16:25difficult to find a star bolt wrench
0:16:27well you can put a normal wrench into
0:16:29the star bolt just saying if you're if
0:16:31you're somebody who's really into
0:16:32stealing tires off of Volkswagens that
0:16:34sounds like something you'd want to get
0:16:35for your kit
0:16:36well oh ho here's the deal
0:16:40they make me this is why it's not so
0:16:42simple they make multiple different
0:16:44kinds of star bolt that's how they get
0:16:46you
0:16:46exactly so you is so if you go to the
0:16:48books by a dealership and say I need a
0:16:50star bolt wrench
0:16:51they're like what kind of startled you
0:16:53got
0:16:54and there's no way to know that you have
0:16:56to bring it into the place and show them
0:16:59and then they can go into their enormous
0:17:00been parts bit of startled fuck thinks
0:17:03that is a good idea is that really that
0:17:05much of a problem that you would
0:17:06introduce that much deliberate
0:17:08inconvenience to the consumer experience
0:17:09because I just say John clear mind our
0:17:11cars volkswagen it's a recent volkswagen
0:17:14so we probably have a star bolt that you
0:17:15have a star bolt or maybe they may be
0:17:17star bolts were only thing that they
0:17:19used from 90 to 99 or so I'm sure hope
0:17:22so but star bolts
0:17:24uh yeah yeah that's exactly the question
0:17:27I was like is this
0:17:28are we the Griswolds like off the road
0:17:31somewhere in Baltimore like who steals
0:17:33tires
0:17:34whoo-hoo anymore steals a wheel of a car
0:17:38that was the last time you saw a car up
0:17:41on blocks used to see them all the time
0:17:45well you know I'm not a physician John
0:17:46but and I don't have the demographic
0:17:47data in front of me but i would have to
0:17:49say i would rather have the prospect of
0:17:51some diligent persons potentially
0:17:54stealing a wheel than knowing that if
0:17:56we're on the side of freezing road we
0:17:57can't change my goddamn can change our
0:17:58got them tires are you know that was one
0:18:01of the major plot points not guess not
0:18:02major plot point but it was a minor plot
0:18:04point of Smokey and the Bandit right
0:18:06oh yeah i was just reading about smoking
0:18:08ban the other day
0:18:09yeah those kids pull over and they're
0:18:11they're taking the they're taking my
0:18:12wheels off of up the car they got left
0:18:15behind by after what happened something
0:18:19happened and they're stealing the wheels
0:18:20and then sheriff a p40 justice justice
0:18:23pulls up and give them and give them a
0:18:26good talking-to it was a real satisfying
0:18:27moment sumbitch up you're seeing that
0:18:32movie down like 40 v 0 where they take
0:18:35the squares out huh
0:18:37it's one of those ones like the big
0:18:38lebowski or glengarry glen ross the
0:18:41really is a joy to see on TBS is because
0:18:44it really it big lebowski I think they
0:18:46deliberately put in you know they change
0:18:49stuff like you know
0:18:50yeah this is what that this is what
0:18:53happens you know when you fuck someone
0:18:54the ass into this is what happens when
0:18:56you fuck a stranger in the alps haha i
0:18:59think that's the color is having a
0:19:01little fun with us but uh I was a you
0:19:05know our our good friend David Rees has
0:19:07at all right now God my daughter and I
0:19:09now argue over who has a bigger crush on
0:19:11him
0:19:12yeah that's 4sho I don't like to talk
0:19:14about media and media but I'm just
0:19:16telling you that that is a goddamn gift
0:19:18from heaven that show it's an amazing
0:19:19show
0:19:20I when he came he seemed like a perfect
0:19:22delight he is that he's the best and he
0:19:24appears on the show exactly as as he is
0:19:27that is how he is in normal times like
0:19:30it's clear it's clear from watching him
0:19:32that he's not putting on a thing like
0:19:34that so he really wants a better
0:19:35shoelace
0:19:36yes he does like a live but I spent last
0:19:39night looking at the internet at all of
0:19:41the people complaining that David said
0:19:44god damn there's nothing man you yeah I
0:19:47can't even believe if you've ever read
0:19:49get your war on I can't even believe how
0:19:50that guy's holding back on that show
0:19:52oh absolutely he is abby is with puppy
0:19:54is a profane motherfuckers like the
0:19:56father from Christmas Story I mean he he
0:19:58paints in rich tapestries of cursing but
0:20:00as the thumb as the as he was doing the
0:20:03paper airplane episode and he was like
0:20:04god damn he said something like that
0:20:06yeah
0:20:07and I and I swear to you there are
0:20:08dozens and dozens of people who are like
0:20:10I will never watch this program again i
0:20:12will know you know my kids I had to take
0:20:15my kids down into the basement and spray
0:20:17them with a fire hose for a half an hour
0:20:19to wash god damn out of their ears
0:20:21that's I'm kind of surprised because
0:20:26that is one that's one of those weird
0:20:28like corner cases that's one that really
0:20:30gets some people who could stand even
0:20:32some you know poopy vagina talk like and
0:20:35would not do not like to hear that one
0:20:37that one really grind some people skiers
0:20:39yeah it's a tough but it's it's it's
0:20:41their line in the sand right i mean you
0:20:42can say shit all day
0:20:43yeah but you take the Lord's name in
0:20:46vain that is one of the things that it
0:20:50says in the book noticing them but not
0:20:52did all the musical point as the musical
0:20:54you see the party whole see the party
0:20:56whole episode you know i miss the party
0:20:57whole episode I was a little bit you
0:20:59know whenever somebody has a party whole
0:21:00yeah and I'm not in it
0:21:02yeah I feel a little bit like oh okie
0:21:04dokie i watch your show right up to the
0:21:07party whole park
0:21:08ya know he designed himself it's it's
0:21:10it's quite a mission have you met him
0:21:12for I feel like I move in his circles
0:21:13somewhat but i don't think i've ever met
0:21:15him you see he's like why our friend mr.
0:21:18Hodgman you must have met him at some
0:21:19point well not only have i met him but
0:21:22he is so on the first jonathan coulton
0:21:26Cruz david and i had already met the
0:21:29first time we met was upstate
0:21:31Massachusetts somewhere in a undisclosed
0:21:36location but on the first on the first
0:21:38jonathan coulton Cruz David and I were
0:21:40both on the boat solo I had no I didn't
0:21:45bring anybody was pregnant and couldn't
0:21:47go on the boat
0:21:48oh my god I just I just I just said her
0:21:51name
0:21:52yeah i think yet we've done 200 episodes
0:21:54yeah um anyway so David and I get on the
0:22:00boat and he comes over he's like well I
0:22:02guess where crews wives and I was like
0:22:05Cruz wives and he's like yeah you gotta
0:22:07cruise wife or even aware at the time
0:22:09how much smarter it was to not bring
0:22:11anybody because I understand talking
0:22:13about numerous people that it's hard to
0:22:15know how much it's a good idea to not
0:22:16bring anybody see is no we were thrilled
0:22:18we were thrilled and we had the first
0:22:20cruise was a magical time for us because
0:22:22we went to Jamaica together we were like
0:22:25we're not going on the normal tour and
0:22:27we went off into the town and we like
0:22:30decided that we were going to find a
0:22:32restaurant that served like barbecued
0:22:35goat and we found some go and we had and
0:22:37we you know we like we we had a big
0:22:40adventure but and we went snorkeling
0:22:42both of us kind of for the first time in
0:22:45a long time and we're out snorkeling on
0:22:46and we went not in the area that were
0:22:49supposed to but in the off-limits area
0:22:51and then I look over at one point and
0:22:53david has taken off his swimsuit because
0:22:56he wanted to snorkel like a like his
0:22:59natural like fish self and so he's naked
0:23:02snorkeling around and I was like well I
0:23:03guess that's what we're doing so then I
0:23:05was naked snorkeling and we're just like
0:23:07this is the best how could how can we
0:23:09ever go back to the real world so so the
0:23:13first Joe Cruz was a was we were very
0:23:16close
0:23:16and then on subsequent Joe Cruz i
0:23:20started bringing my family and David
0:23:22started doing a thing which amazes me to
0:23:24this day each cruise he's brought one
0:23:28old friend from high school and each
0:23:33Cruz has been a different guy and every
0:23:36one of those guys has been an amazing
0:23:38weird Southern gothic and just sort of
0:23:43like nutcase but they're all amazing
0:23:47smart incredible sort of David rician
0:23:50type of people I've never met a guy who
0:23:53who knew as many nutty people as David
0:23:56Rees does although I guess that makes
0:23:58sense
0:23:58wow yeah you'd have to really think
0:24:00ahead plan ahead to do that I i'm still
0:24:03be like flustered over like trying to
0:24:05get the right tickets and the right
0:24:06luggage and stuff he's thinking ahead
0:24:08he's bringing people along he's bringing
0:24:10people from his past and the thing is
0:24:11that for me to bring five people that i
0:24:13knew from high school could you get five
0:24:15people answer the phone
0:24:17well and the thing what it implies is
0:24:18that he's still in close contact with
0:24:20all five of those guys they're all still
0:24:21is like type Rose that's either seems
0:24:25dishonest or sickening
0:24:26it's whatever it is it's unique in my
0:24:29experience yeah that that whole scene
0:24:31you know it's a little bit of a North
0:24:33Carolina think maybe okay yeah you know
0:24:35what I mean like a little bit of a
0:24:36minute mint julep type of NASCAR thing
0:24:39sure i can see you guys having a real
0:24:41like like I like crazy eighties montage
0:24:43because you both.you both like you know
0:24:45we're curious guys like trying out new
0:24:47stuff so on the last cruise we went
0:24:50again to jamaica and we decided we were
0:24:52going to find I we're going to scour the
0:24:55island until we found a record store
0:24:57that had super old weird reggae help
0:25:01ease and we spent a very hot long weird
0:25:06exhausting day and we did find a guy who
0:25:08had some cardboard boxes of old reggae
0:25:12albums which david probably overpaid for
0:25:16but we did buy a bunch of help ease some
0:25:20of them had to be washed off because
0:25:23they were covered with dirt and resin
0:25:25but they uh but he's you know that's
0:25:27part of that's part of his record
0:25:29collection now
0:25:30many props I like that guy is my god is
0:25:34good i'll make sure that you meet each
0:25:36other
0:25:36yeah he resembles something I made me
0:25:38feel really good you know whether one of
0:25:40these shows
0:25:41not very long ago we talked about some
0:25:43famous people and then there was a
0:25:44there's a little bit of like oh now
0:25:46Roderick on the line is just dropping
0:25:48names what you said that out some kid on
0:25:51the internet now we're dropping names
0:25:53now after always usually yeah talking
0:25:56about Pete Rose yeah after all after all
0:25:58this time there are still we can still
0:26:01surprise people John a you know I don't
0:26:04even like to address these kinds of
0:26:05things but you are you move in the
0:26:07corridors of power at many many levels
0:26:09in many many corridors and i just can't
0:26:12believe the restraint restraint that you
0:26:13show you know well imagine if you had
0:26:16not told us about that that that that
0:26:19dinner you want to with your dad
0:26:21yeah we're doing the can-can yeah and
0:26:23take some name-dropping the boy that's
0:26:24real memorable to me
0:26:26yeah you wouldn't you wouldn't know that
0:26:27such a thing existed until he also
0:26:29talked a lot about people that nobody
0:26:30knows so I think you balance it out
0:26:32yeah yeah well the thing is I could have
0:26:34we could have done to show two months
0:26:36ago I could have talked about David Rees
0:26:38nobody would have known who the fuck
0:26:39you're talking about now talking about
0:26:40to go noble now he's a famous guy and
0:26:43he's right he's just finally famous
0:26:45uh-huh
0:26:46because he's one of the people this is a
0:26:47rare example of somebody who got famous
0:26:50who should have been famous all along
0:26:53yeah fucking people you know I mean I
0:26:57don't know exactly what you're saying
0:26:59it's exhausting John fucking people try
0:27:02to keep an open mind
0:27:03also your fever is doing better David
0:27:06reason should watch the party whole
0:27:08party whole one is interesting because I
0:27:11mean obviously it's like edited and
0:27:12stuff out of sequence but you know what
0:27:14i'm talking about this who cares but if
0:27:16I think it's the first one was something
0:27:17genuinely went tits up with the
0:27:19operation and it makes it even funnier
0:27:21you can get is a cameo from jonathan
0:27:24coulton is so that's right for someone
0:27:26that we now our good friend Joe code
0:27:28that we talked about we talked about
0:27:29quite a bit i think it proper children I
0:27:31think that'll look there's some children
0:27:33he has with him but i think they may be
0:27:34loners was right he think they're they
0:27:36came from most likely to protect his
0:27:38kids from the the harsh i have the
0:27:40public he does and yet as
0:27:43all know the the uh you know the
0:27:47whatever that little piece of gauze is
0:27:49between our private lives in our public
0:27:50lives yeah that God is on fire Merlin oh
0:27:53what happened oh the gods is on fire is
0:27:56all that's happening we are not going to
0:27:57be able to write separate our public and
0:28:00private lives for very much longer
0:28:02yeah yeah I it's all just an Amazon
0:28:07algorithm for for how for what we want
0:28:10to buy em my kid is going to be just
0:28:12another thing it's just me another face
0:28:14that pops up on my computer sometimes
0:28:17saying hey your kid would like some food
0:28:19today
0:28:19fuck you computer have you fed have you
0:28:24fed this darling child today we think
0:28:26you may like the bars tidy bars would
0:28:31you like to friend would you like to
0:28:33frenzy bars
0:28:35hello would you like to increase your
0:28:37level of engagement with Z bars
0:28:40ok so we're doing when I go to look at I
0:28:45think this is the thing you do I think I
0:28:47don't know I i sometimes if somebody
0:28:49says something really awful or something
0:28:50I gotta talk to you about sometimes
0:28:52somebody will say something really
0:28:54bananas to me on Twitter it doesn't
0:28:56happen that much but I'll go and so what
0:28:58do i do I don't get mad I go I go and I
0:29:00just I think I think I always assume i
0:29:02don't get the reference is my fresh
0:29:04think so you search the person you like
0:29:06cause the people that I engage with on
0:29:08Twitter actually like pretty nice pretty
0:29:10nice people and occasionally i'll get
0:29:12one from real out of left field and then
0:29:15i'll go and look at the thing and i'll
0:29:17see if there's URL i'll see if there's a
0:29:19picture that's not something from the OC
0:29:21or something and and yeah and then I
0:29:25realized that they do things like follow
0:29:27airlines they follow they follow like
0:29:31celebrities like people who obviously
0:29:35like have somebody there on their behalf
0:29:37tuning for them i shouldn't say this I
0:29:40you know what I really shouldn't say
0:29:41this and I got don't say this i got a
0:29:44weird at response
0:29:46to a tooth that's probably two or three
0:29:48years old haha so big but usually once I
0:29:52guess I'm they're going back in the
0:29:54archives i think the only reason i don't
0:29:56even know this person knows that they
0:29:57kind of know me but it was in response
0:29:59to something that your friend Sean said
0:30:01okay and it's a certain superfan from
0:30:04the seatac area that you remember from
0:30:06the long winters board days
0:30:08ok alright ma i'm with you and I read
0:30:13her entire timeline for the last two
0:30:14years
0:30:15what does each one nice i woke up I saw
0:30:18that I followed through the ever do that
0:30:19you ever go back and just read like two
0:30:20years of bananas
0:30:21I i have done man I have to say I I you
0:30:25know because i like i love people the
0:30:28same whether you do your kind of gentle
0:30:29anthropologist something and I want to
0:30:31see what is making people talk i want to
0:30:33see you know sometimes you learn a lot
0:30:35about the center by looking at the wings
0:30:37absolutely Heraclitus said you can never
0:30:39never dip your toe into the same crazy
0:30:40person twice
0:30:41that's exactly right I'll and the thing
0:30:43is that you know it's not a coincidence
0:30:45i was just recently reading her clients
0:30:47is that right yeah but it but not to not
0:30:50to digress i love to go back into and a
0:30:54lot of times before I follow somebody
0:30:55i'll just go read their last year just I
0:30:58wish I started doing that a very long
0:31:00time ago
0:31:00yeah yeah just a really good idea to do
0:31:03that you had a couple of funny tweets
0:31:04there and then you go back and you're
0:31:05like all you tweet about doritos all the
0:31:07time
0:31:08no well broken hard drives and Fox News
0:31:10and you're like that
0:31:11yeah so anyway so you have this you you
0:31:14want you deep dive on a deep dive on a
0:31:18dingaling tell you any more about it
0:31:23later better really brought back some
0:31:25memories of the old days and and the
0:31:27thing is if you go back and re-read
0:31:29somebody's monkey balls timeline you get
0:31:30a sense how this path and pretty much
0:31:35this person goes them all every day and
0:31:37takes a picture of him or herself
0:31:39yes that isn't that you know what and
0:31:41and when they are 60 and we are 60
0:31:44they're going to have those pictures of
0:31:45themselves and we're not
0:31:46it's so true i take like i take i used
0:31:49to take 150 photos of my daughter a day
0:31:51and I get like one a quarter
0:31:53yeah we'll look at the camera so it's
0:31:55her like in motion turning away on a
0:31:57swing set or something
0:31:58well but this is the did this is the
0:32:00thing in our culture the people who do
0:32:03the same thing every day for a long time
0:32:06sometimes r plucked out by the culture
0:32:08and identified as like the the true
0:32:11geniuses of our time you know that the
0:32:14people better like I've been cooking
0:32:15frog legs every day for 25 years and you
0:32:18know and then around their head
0:32:21this graphic appears the frog leg King
0:32:23ba and you know and all of a sudden he's
0:32:26the frog leg king and people are flying
0:32:29in from around the world to taste his
0:32:31amazing frog legs and it's like well
0:32:32really that we should be concerned about
0:32:34this guy he's been doing nothing but
0:32:37cooking products for 25 years like that
0:32:40seems like a failure of the imagination
0:32:41but no he's the fucking frog late king
0:32:44he gotta walk spot account yeah he
0:32:47almost got on jimmy kimmel yeah so you
0:32:49know so you go to the mall every day you
0:32:51take a picture yourself in the in the in
0:32:53your reflection in the front window of a
0:32:54hot topic 25 years from now it seems
0:32:58like you are
0:32:59I mean you're the terry richardson of
0:33:00your time whenever you're some genius
0:33:02like art photographer that had a weird
0:33:04picadillo I did you used to seem so much
0:33:07weirder and not something people do all
0:33:09the time thinking of I think i read this
0:33:11in Harper's man heard on this american
0:33:15life but it's probably 10 years ago
0:33:16remember the story about the guy who
0:33:19documented everything that happens an
0:33:21old guy don't you and everything he
0:33:23weighed the paper the newspaper every
0:33:24day he comes all the stickers from the
0:33:26meat that he bought the started this is
0:33:28talking about
0:33:28yes it does a fascinating story and now
0:33:30basically that's what everybody does
0:33:31that's pinterest yeah that's like you
0:33:33know am I i had a great p.m. here is
0:33:36what's hot topic around a doctor who
0:33:39shirts I got an orange julius here's a
0:33:41photo of me having more choices
0:33:42well you know and I prevision this
0:33:45Merlin all the way back in the early
0:33:48nineties when i said when i say when i
0:33:51saw the I saw the storm clouds on the
0:33:53horizon and a little Mexican boy came
0:33:56and took a thoughtful photograph a
0:33:58Polaroid of me and handed it to me and
0:34:00that is how my son the leader of the
0:34:03revolution is able to identify me when
0:34:06he comes back in time
0:34:08oh that's so smart i know but leaving
0:34:12that aside
0:34:13yeah I remember thinking that there was
0:34:17going to be step is going to be some
0:34:19that that in effect the sum total of
0:34:23human knowledge was only going to be
0:34:26valuable
0:34:27insofar as we were able to collect it
0:34:30and sort of and so we have had this
0:34:34sense in the in the nineteen eighties
0:34:35are in the early nineties that there was
0:34:38this it was it was kind of a comparative
0:34:40religion a notion that like well if we
0:34:44could if we put all the religious texts
0:34:47throughout history next to each other
0:34:49and were able to look at them in three
0:34:50dimensions and we just pick out all the
0:34:52similarities and we figure out what the
0:34:55differences are and how they relate to
0:34:57one another then there should be some
0:35:00like some herb body of knowledge is it
0:35:04there would be patterns that clearly
0:35:05emerged like hey here's a here's being
0:35:07nice to each other that tends to work
0:35:08out right and so and maybe we would have
0:35:11maybe then we would have another
0:35:13dimension of insight into religion or
0:35:16what it's that out where it comes from
0:35:17why it's there
0:35:18what it means maybe there's a maybe
0:35:21there's a a tenth religion out there
0:35:24that is actually the the combined
0:35:27tenants of all religions and and you
0:35:31know that comparative religion impulse
0:35:33extends to like that the idea that well
0:35:37we have a tremendous body of knowledge
0:35:39all the libraries of the world all of
0:35:42the all of the oral accounts all of the
0:35:45other novels and this sum total of human
0:35:50knowledge and experience if there was a
0:35:52way to collect it and sort it
0:35:56what would we know what would we know
0:35:58net what we know better and what would
0:36:01we do with that information I remember
0:36:03in the early nineties thinking that this
0:36:05was the in some ways the future it was
0:36:08going to be
0:36:10we just needed to develop the technology
0:36:11to bind and sort this you know this kind
0:36:18of like a dimensionless cloud of
0:36:21information and we're doing it now and
0:36:23what it turns out is its digital
0:36:25scrapbooks of how much the newspaper
0:36:27ways and and every collected meet
0:36:31sticker from every piece in every
0:36:33package of hamburger you buy and it
0:36:35turns out that the collected some of all
0:36:38human knowledge is just like a busy
0:36:41signal
0:36:41it's just it's just it's just
0:36:46oh man thats dark because because all
0:36:49the meat stickers
0:36:50there are a lot more people collecting
0:36:51meet stickers then there are comparing
0:36:54Heraclitus to a to Augustine and the
0:36:59very few people who are comparing
0:37:01Heraclitus to Augustine are sewed are so
0:37:04drowned out by the meat stickers that
0:37:06that ultimately there there is no I I
0:37:09feel like maybe maybe the the high
0:37:12knowledge and the low knowledge do
0:37:14actually cancel each other out there is
0:37:16no well I do not prefer anymore
0:37:19the PM the high knowledge because
0:37:23because I just him but like them to meet
0:37:26sticker scrapbooks are just rising up in
0:37:29the room i feel like i'm in the trash
0:37:31compactor and star wars and it's just
0:37:33it's just it needs to sell everything
0:37:36meatstick her login and then then then
0:37:39here floats by this little you know this
0:37:41little bottle cap and inside the bottle
0:37:44cap is like Oh have you ever noticed
0:37:45that that that Augustine Aristotle and
0:37:48Heraclitus all said this and my cough
0:37:50what I'm and it just floats by its eaten
0:37:53by a it's eaten by a compactor monster
0:37:56the yeah that's good because it seems
0:37:59like there's so much stuff not to harp
0:38:02on them the medical stuff that it seems
0:38:04like at this point you should be able to
0:38:05like walk into a box like kind of almost
0:38:08like an MRI or a tsa scanner it seems
0:38:10like we should be at the point now where
0:38:11you walk into a little box with your
0:38:13clothes on even and in like three
0:38:15seconds it tells you probably what's
0:38:16wrong with you and a couple things that
0:38:18might be and then you do a couple
0:38:19testing you now is that not the case
0:38:22it's really feels like that kit with
0:38:24would be how it works so you're talking
0:38:26about religion but you think about
0:38:27anything over the past however many
0:38:29centuries or millennia like if you had
0:38:30enough data over time in context with
0:38:33trendlines it seems like they're so
0:38:35much interesting stuff that you could
0:38:37figure out about it sometimes that
0:38:38surfaces as like an infographic on
0:38:40somebody's blog or something but you're
0:38:42absolutely right it reminds me directly
0:38:43of like the days after 911 when they're
0:38:48saying let you know the problem is not
0:38:50collecting this intelligence we've got a
0:38:52lot of intelligence we just don't have
0:38:53any way to analyze right the the huge
0:38:55with her so much noise and all of this
0:38:58it's even been missing it a little stuff
0:38:59that comes along so what we do we got
0:39:01more and more information now but this
0:39:02is why this is why do you remember in
0:39:06the movie russia house starring sean
0:39:09connery no i don't have you seen the
0:39:11movie russia house starring sean connery
0:39:12in out the movie russia house Connery
0:39:16with Sean Connery and michelle pfeiffer
0:39:19king and roy scheider um is one of those
0:39:24what would it be early nineties
0:39:27meditations on the end of the Soviet
0:39:31Union's a cold war thriller
0:39:33it's a cold war thriller that's exactly
0:39:34right circa hunt for red october in
0:39:38which sean connery plays a reluctant
0:39:41alcoholic book editor consider myself
0:39:44for like an alcoholic
0:39:46yeah well he's a reluctant alcohol he's
0:39:48a he's enthusiastic alcoholic a
0:39:49reluctant spy let's call him a
0:39:52reluctance by anyway not to give too
0:39:55much of the point away but there is
0:39:56there's a there's a scene in the film
0:39:58for several scenes I guess where Roy
0:40:01Scheider as a sort of CIA up you know
0:40:04high mucky-muck is running an operation
0:40:06from a clean room within some CIA
0:40:11operational headquarters and they are
0:40:13you know they're they're monitoring the
0:40:15situation and there's a guy in that's
0:40:18kind of a cold war trope who is a sort
0:40:23of great wild-haired gray-haired older
0:40:27clearly homosexual but not but but
0:40:31everybody is pretending that he's not
0:40:33because he's such a genius a kind of
0:40:35Benchley park
0:40:37CIA g like flamboyant genius you know
0:40:42what I mean this is like that this is
0:40:44this is one of these ideas that you have
0:40:46about the CIA that's somewhere somewhere
0:40:49deep in there there are these guys who
0:40:51are kind of a who are so far off the
0:40:54reservation but so genius right you get
0:40:56your like John Nash Glenn Gould misfits
0:41:00of science mutant types exactly super
0:41:03super interesting to keep in the
0:41:05basement though you know PR reasons
0:41:07yeah keep them in the basement but but
0:41:09like the day and they're allowed to walk
0:41:11around the CIA in a kimono with like a
0:41:14with the like a Indian headdress on look
0:41:17like because like the boyfriend Chris
0:41:19Sarandon in a dog day afternoon
0:41:21yes because because when it's time to
0:41:25process the reams and reams of
0:41:28information they have what amounts to an
0:41:31artistic insight that cuts through the
0:41:34cuts through the noise right and the
0:41:37problem that I see with the American
0:41:39intelligence community and the problem
0:41:41that we have in all of these like
0:41:43massive data dump scenarios is that we
0:41:48have simultaneously culturally
0:41:51eliminated the the Hiawatha's from the
0:41:57process right the CIA no longer hires
0:42:00presumably people who are Hiawatha's
0:42:04they are only looking for the kind of
0:42:08like middlebrow best and brightest the
0:42:11people that can get into Yale the people
0:42:13that that score off the chart people's
0:42:15good great good credit who aren't gonna
0:42:17be compromised right and so so they're
0:42:21trying to they're like we had all this
0:42:22information we just didn't have the
0:42:25people to process it and what they're
0:42:26missing and what all what all of
0:42:28data-driven culture is missing are the
0:42:31the key people who do not who are able
0:42:36to see artistically they're able to look
0:42:38at data artistically and say you know
0:42:42what you have all this data but we can
0:42:43eliminate eighty-five percent of it
0:42:44right now because it doesn't apply
0:42:47and everybody goes we'll wait a minute
0:42:49wait a minute wait a minute we got a
0:42:50filter and we gotta winch and that's
0:42:51just like nope you know what I can see
0:42:53this i can just take it easy patterns
0:42:55they can just see patterns they see
0:42:56through the clouds and they're like
0:42:58eighty-five percent of it doesn't matter
0:43:00because you know it's the it's the
0:43:02Hannibal Lecter thing it's like is this
0:43:04guy who's your killer is he going to be
0:43:07somebody that that you know that works a
0:43:10straight job or whatever you know just
0:43:11like sees the pattern and eliminates
0:43:14eighty-five percent of the data because
0:43:16it's because they know it's irrelevant i
0:43:19love that character and the and the and
0:43:21what we are not doing somehow in our
0:43:23culture and and in business and in in
0:43:26these like we have we have salt mines
0:43:29full of information and we're trying to
0:43:31we're trying to grind it you know we're
0:43:34trying to process it through this like
0:43:36this increasing granularity and oh my
0:43:39god week the only place that patterns
0:43:41are going to exist is in the most
0:43:43granular at the most granular level and
0:43:45we're not hiring Hiawatha's we're not
0:43:49hiring people that are just like flying
0:43:51over the top in a kimono for like making
0:43:55of a swoosh it and they say you know
0:43:57what here's the answer it was right here
0:44:00in front of you the whole time like I
0:44:01don't think that 911 was that hard to
0:44:04figure out if you just had I mean in the
0:44:07end it and even through retrospect it's
0:44:10not it
0:44:11he you can imagine one person sitting at
0:44:14their desk and saying you know what I
0:44:17think I see a pattern emerging and and
0:44:21yet that person was just like just
0:44:24shunted off into some storeroom
0:44:26somewhere because he didn't have the he
0:44:28didn't have the clearance to talk to the
0:44:29guy who had the other and other half of
0:44:31the information right now that's good if
0:44:34they want to do you want to keep it you
0:44:35know compartmentalised and I do not want
0:44:38to keep it compartmentalised United
0:44:39kimono floating over that i do and i
0:44:41think the secret i think the secret like
0:44:44the secret ghost squad of all of this is
0:44:47some and this is the this is the problem
0:44:50again with general ism like how do we
0:44:51train
0:44:52how do you train generalists in a way
0:44:55you don't but how do you recognize them
0:44:58and write and raise them up right right
0:45:01if your if your culture is designed to
0:45:04to celebrate the Frog Lake king and it's
0:45:08like well this guy's got seven phd's in
0:45:10frog legs
0:45:11how are you going to say that this guy
0:45:13over here who never even graduated from
0:45:15college has got more insight into the
0:45:17situation than the Frog Lake king and
0:45:19it's like well you know what the front
0:45:21like King is a fucking retard and and
0:45:25the fact that he has seven phd's is
0:45:27Islam is ludicrous and you should
0:45:29recognize that that mean that is a sign
0:45:31of his mental illness not a sign of his
0:45:34greatness but on the other hand think
0:45:36about it I feel like I heard something
0:45:37not too long on the radio about how
0:45:39people on the autism spectrum are I not
0:45:43having an easier time getting jobs of
0:45:45people are realizing that there are
0:45:46certain very special skills and people
0:45:48on the spectrum that are not as common
0:45:51you know in those generalists with right
0:45:53with the ties and that you know with a
0:45:54little bit of care and individual
0:45:56attention you can actually find jobs
0:45:58these folks are created when I went to
0:45:59mcdonalds everybody who worked breakfast
0:46:01in the morning at mcdonalds was an old
0:46:03lady it was not an old man it was not a
0:46:05young lady
0:46:06they're all old ladies and they had all
0:46:07been there for like ten years and you
0:46:10know what they showed up on time they
0:46:12did their shit their shit was tight and
0:46:14every morning breakfast ran like a top
0:46:16and McDonald's because there is this
0:46:17culture of all old ladies working
0:46:19mcdonalds and they all interacted well
0:46:20that sounds like a really like insipid
0:46:22example but you need the right person
0:46:24for the right job you know what somebody
0:46:26is going to be all low in there and if
0:46:28there is sometimes you know maybe you
0:46:29need somebody maybe not quite as John
0:46:31Nash but like but you need people who
0:46:33are able to come in and see patterns or
0:46:35have a drive toward a certain kind of
0:46:38curiosity that's a little bit outside
0:46:39the spectrum is a whole you know
0:46:41Einstein misquote about trying to solve
0:46:43the same problem by doing the same thing
0:46:44who's he you know that some folks like
0:46:46that somewhere like in maybe in Virginia
0:46:48I i feel like the I feel like the
0:46:52bureaucratic the cult of the cult of
0:46:56bureaucracy and the and the the miss
0:46:59identification of our culture now as a
0:47:02meritocracy hat as in a way smoked all
0:47:08those people out right because because
0:47:11what you're because what we're trying to
0:47:13do now where we're everywhere in America
0:47:16there is a there's an admissions process
0:47:19right everywhere there are more
0:47:22applications for any job than there are
0:47:25I'm sorry yeah they're way more
0:47:27potential applicants for any job then
0:47:29there are positions right and so
0:47:31everything in plenty and plenty of very
0:47:33generic blunt instrument metrics that
0:47:37allow you to put people through this
0:47:38rock tumbler so it only pebbles larger
0:47:40than this and smaller than that will fit
0:47:42the screen right so for instance I have
0:47:44a good friend who just went through just
0:47:47did 25 interviews for a job and the job
0:47:50was one of your computer mass jobs right
0:47:55webmaster chief web marketing Bob Bob
0:48:02some kind of web maths and like I know
0:48:08the job you know the job it's a job it's
0:48:11a it's a it's an actual job that has
0:48:13things that need to get done a certain
0:48:15amount of imagination needs to be
0:48:17employed to do the job well but that
0:48:21imagination is like this is this isn't a
0:48:25job where you're at Bletchley Park in
0:48:28you're trying to you're trying to crack
0:48:31the Enigma code
0:48:33this is a job or it's like here's here's
0:48:34what's going to happen pretty much we
0:48:36know this is the type of thing that's
0:48:38going to come in
0:48:39these are the types of ways that we're
0:48:40going to solve this problem here are the
0:48:42you know like with we're not going to
0:48:45we're not going to invent it with a
0:48:47medical scanner at this business because
0:48:49all we're trying to do is cellphone
0:48:51trees to banks and hospitals right but
0:48:55but in the 25 interviews that my friend
0:48:58went to she described innumerable
0:49:02examples of people coming in and sitting
0:49:04down and saying
0:49:06let's say you're in a sinking ship and
0:49:10all you have is an is a is one American
0:49:13nickel and a na uncooked bag of pasta
0:49:18and a drinking straw
0:49:19yeah how do you get out of the how do
0:49:22you get out of this situation and then
0:49:24that lean forward the guys like that
0:49:28this whole google influenced version of
0:49:33interviewing people and it's kinda like
0:49:34it's like an intellectual ropes course
0:49:36or something right where the question is
0:49:38meant to more than anything conveyed to
0:49:41the interviewee that the interviewer is
0:49:43a really smart hotshot person right and
0:49:47over and over and over again she's she's
0:49:50trying to fill these interview questions
0:49:51and at a certain point I had I you know
0:49:55she's talking to me and I I advised her
0:49:57like the way to answer that question is
0:49:59too lean equally forward and say this
0:50:02question is irrelevant to the
0:50:04performance of this job and in fact what
0:50:07the person that you want in this
0:50:08position is somebody who is going to
0:50:10consider all the evidence in in any
0:50:13given situation weight over time and
0:50:15make the best reasoned choice
0:50:18you do not want someone who is going to
0:50:21off-the-cuff shoot you some kind of
0:50:25answer that ties together the the nickel
0:50:28and the and the bag of pasta like you r
0:50:30into e by asking this question you are
0:50:32interviewing for a different job and in
0:50:34fact for a job that does not exist at
0:50:36your company you think you are in a
0:50:38different world then you're in and if
0:50:41you know and I I advised her probably
0:50:44probably that is the baby the wrong
0:50:48thing to say to somebody who's
0:50:49interviewing you for a job but but it's
0:50:51something that I felt very very
0:50:53passionately that in business culture
0:50:56now that's an example of people not
0:51:00recognizing where they are and thinking
0:51:02that they are somewhere very else and
0:51:05asking you know asking basically like
0:51:07stupid s80 questions because what they
0:51:10wish they were doing is working for
0:51:13google or they wish that you know they
0:51:15hope that by asking
0:51:17by trying to find a hiawatha everywhere
0:51:22all the time and yet only choosing a
0:51:27about then ending up only choosing the
0:51:31people that went to Princeton anyway
0:51:33because nobody can even that that person
0:51:35couldn't pick a good answer to that
0:51:37question if they tried you know what I
0:51:38mean like they asked the question and
0:51:40they don't even have the they don't even
0:51:41have the mental resources to know what a
0:51:44good answer to it is so no I don't feel
0:51:47like there are those geniuses anymore i
0:51:49feel like we all want those jeans I mean
0:51:51we are we're interviewing people as
0:51:54though you need to be that genius just
0:51:57to work at attachmate and you don't need
0:52:02to be that genius to work an attachment
0:52:03if that genius is working at attachment
0:52:06it's a net loss for everybody
0:52:08I got a very simple probably over simple
0:52:12theory that's your favorite TV show I
0:52:15think it's Kobayashi Maru I think you
0:52:18know the Kobayashi Maru scenario i have
0:52:20learned it from my several visits to
0:52:23comic-con but you know if you know the
0:52:24basic idea Curt cut through its a skull
0:52:27its a big spoiler it basically in your I
0:52:30don't quite understand how this works
0:52:31because it seems like as if they would
0:52:32tell other people about this but you go
0:52:34into a simulator to be the captain of
0:52:36the ship and you have a situation where
0:52:38you get a distress call from the ship
0:52:40called the Kobayashi Maru and you have
0:52:42to go through forgive me nerds out that
0:52:44Klingons but uh but you got basically in
0:52:47order to get to that stranded ship
0:52:49you're gonna have to go through like a
0:52:50dmz that you're pretty sure will provoke
0:52:52the baddies and so the question is you
0:52:55know what you decide to do and this
0:52:58spoiler of course is that no matter what
0:53:00you do the Kobayashi Maru will be
0:53:02destroyed your ship will be destroyed
0:53:04everybody no matter what you choose to
0:53:07do the Kobayashi Maru scenario dies ends
0:53:10with you dying your ship being destroyed
0:53:12and and so first of all what you learn
0:53:16is that the Kobayashi Maru is a test of
0:53:18your character
0:53:19it seems like it's a test of your
0:53:20decision making but it's really a test
0:53:22of your character to see how you react
0:53:24in an impossible situation and then of
0:53:26course as you know he's the apple we
0:53:28know that
0:53:29Kirk is the only one has ever passed
0:53:31because he cheated right he rewrites the
0:53:33encryption somehow that's right that's
0:53:35the way you be kobayashi memories by
0:53:36cheating and then of course you know us
0:53:37to go to go to space trial and stuff
0:53:39like that right because it revealed his
0:53:41character
0:53:41well I don't doubt that there are
0:53:43answers that that person has on a piece
0:53:45of paper but i think part of it is just
0:53:46seeing how you react to stuff like that
0:53:48don't you think that you think part of
0:53:49it would be like well here's the real
0:53:51wackadoodle situation show me your
0:53:52creativity and cool yeah but this is the
0:53:55but this is the problem
0:53:56how many of these jobs are creativity
0:54:00and cool needed
0:54:02okay i would say we maybe point zero one
0:54:05percent like you flatter yourselves
0:54:08interviewers to think that creativity
0:54:09and cool is the thing that you're
0:54:11looking for when in fact you're looking
0:54:13for someone who is like thoughtful
0:54:17confident
0:54:19uh but but you know but that this is
0:54:22that this is another thing like there
0:54:23are so many people out there who need a
0:54:25few minutes to think about it before
0:54:27they're going to come up with the
0:54:28solution right and we have eliminated a
0:54:31lot of those people from contention
0:54:33because for whatever reason we prize
0:54:36somebody's cool under fire internet
0:54:39maybe they just don't present well you
0:54:40know what it wasn't really that if they
0:54:43if they went home and spent the evening
0:54:45thinking about it they'd come back with
0:54:47an elegant solution that required you
0:54:49know in a way neither creativity nor a
0:54:52cool but like intelligence and a little
0:54:55work intelligence and work exactly like
0:54:57work and processing that does not fall
0:55:00into this magical like this is that this
0:55:02is this problem of like everybody's a
0:55:04fucking artist now because everybody's
0:55:06mom told them that they were an artist
0:55:08all the way through grade school and so
0:55:10we think that creativity is this thing
0:55:11that like that we need even in the
0:55:15business class and the reality is of a
0:55:19thousand people working at a company you
0:55:21need two of them to be creative and the
0:55:23rest of them need to be diligent only
0:55:25need to be they need to be able to get
0:55:27along with other people which is very
0:55:28hard to gauge right but what's on latex
0:55:31overlooks kill we're populating people
0:55:34were populated places with people who
0:55:35pass these dumb creativity tests and the
0:55:38reality is that most of them are
0:55:39creative so the dumb creativity test
0:55:42gets
0:55:42slightly you know gets mutated until
0:55:46enough people pass that's right the test
0:55:49the test up mutates to fulfill the curve
0:55:53and so now all of a sudden we have a
0:55:56different definition of creativity
0:55:57because well you know we needed we want
0:55:59forty percent of the people working here
0:56:01to be creative
0:56:02well guess what forty percent of the
0:56:03people in the world are creative and
0:56:05you're probably not going to get you're
0:56:07not going to cook skim the top forty
0:56:10percent off to come work at your at your
0:56:13software company that deals with a
0:56:16cellphone chase payphone trees right so
0:56:20so if you think that forty percent of
0:56:22the people working there creative you
0:56:23have gamed your own tests to think that
0:56:26that you're getting creative answers out
0:56:28of people when people is just giving you
0:56:30whatever fucking it you know like you
0:56:32you're not you are not actually
0:56:34measuring what you think you're
0:56:36measuring and the and this is the
0:56:40problem i think nationwide there is no
0:56:42in in a in a in a country that values
0:56:45creativity as highly as we do as we
0:56:48claim to do there actually is very
0:56:51there's maybe even less room for
0:56:53creative people now because creativity
0:56:56has been co-opted and systematized what
0:57:02we have what we call creativity
0:57:04this is yeah and so here I'm going to
0:57:06toss out a word i'm gonna use this word
0:57:07i think correctly for the first time its
0:57:09normative because if you think about
0:57:11remember when I very i think i have
0:57:12snapshots of this from my life feeling
0:57:14like somebody who what was a somewhat
0:57:16creative person who needed a chance and
0:57:18a little time to explain who didn't do
0:57:20well in those kinds of things but i
0:57:22remember hearing you know you remember
0:57:23all the stuff but you know the PSAT the
0:57:26s80 the acct like it was just even in
0:57:29nineteen eighty i graduated five it was
0:57:31so drilled into your head how critical
0:57:33those are and it was until a few years
0:57:35later that please
0:57:37this version i've heard is that the
0:57:38reason those tests are really important
0:57:40is that they look at those tests they
0:57:43look at your grades and you are going to
0:57:45look at stuff like you know you're at SA
0:57:47and things like that but there's a
0:57:49single reason that those test scores
0:57:50amount so much which is incredibly
0:57:52sensible but also incredibly depressing
0:57:54which is that there is
0:57:56of all the measurements that are out
0:57:57there there is one correlation that
0:58:00matters the correlation between people
0:58:02who do well on standardized College
0:58:05Admission Test and people who finished
0:58:07college in less than four years that
0:58:09correlation is extremely high sounds so
0:58:13obvious but think about that for just a
0:58:14second
0:58:15right like talk about fucking normative
0:58:17what that means is to like why you know
0:58:19what we just don't have the time and
0:58:21inclination or the resources to really
0:58:23find out who would blow the doors off of
0:58:25this place and what we've got here is we
0:58:26need to find people who are going to
0:58:27fail spectacularly in some ways that's
0:58:30what it means
0:58:30so like my nutty balls school like I had
0:58:33good acct scores i had a good essay but
0:58:35mostly they were like you know what
0:58:36youre five percenter you're like one of
0:58:38those people who were pretty sure it's
0:58:40going to bomb out before the end of the
0:58:41first semester but what the hell we have
0:58:43a certain amount in our budget to let in
0:58:45crazy people who might not work out in
0:58:46the end it did work out but it was I
0:58:48should not have been got I should not
0:58:50have gotten into the college that I got
0:58:51into because that's what that's what is
0:58:54there i got it again just quickly i got
0:58:56it again when I think was when i first
0:58:58went on unemployment in Florida like 95
0:59:01I got fired from a job and I remember
0:59:04filling out that form or was I did
0:59:06something in California later but going
0:59:08through and filling out those forms is
0:59:10so depressing because it's so digital it
0:59:13really is like 15 stars write down your
0:59:16skill your skill does not match one of
0:59:17the things that you mean Microsoft Word
0:59:19ok microsoft word how many years have
0:59:20you done this how good are you is that
0:59:22you don't have to explain anything about
0:59:23like how you learn things fast you can
0:59:25take explain anything about like how you
0:59:27are sometimes good at figuring out a
0:59:29problem before it is a problem it's just
0:59:31I mean I know that's out there somewhere
0:59:32maybe that's what those kobayashi
0:59:34memories or four but it's so frustrating
0:59:35to me that like that data that we're
0:59:37talking about ends up getting used to
0:59:39get more no more more normative bell
0:59:41curve of of people who are unlikely to
0:59:44flame out spectacularly but may not even
0:59:46be the greatest that what they're doing
0:59:48and if you believe if you believed in a
0:59:51world where the world was being run by
0:59:53people who knew what they were what they
0:59:55were going for you could say like Oh
0:59:55were going for you could say like Oh
1:00:00ok this is one of of a hundred potential
1:00:02ways that you could run the world and
1:00:04it's i guess one that is equally valid
1:00:07like let's let's just let's just make a
1:00:10bell curve
1:00:11let's let's admit people into the most
1:00:13prestigious colleges that based on
1:00:16whether or not they're going to finish
1:00:17rather than whether or not they're
1:00:19really smart and then let's sort of a
1:00:24let's wait
1:00:25everything that happens in the culture
1:00:27according to this same sort of
1:00:30methodology so like if you go to
1:00:32Princeton then the doors are going to
1:00:35open for you the rest of your life and
1:00:37then work and you're going to keep
1:00:40getting things done so we're going to
1:00:42prise people who get things done and
1:00:46etcetera etcetera like if if if we
1:00:48believe that there were people up on top
1:00:49of the of the the space needle of our
1:00:52culture looking down and saying like
1:00:54here's how it is how it's designed and
1:00:57we know that we're losing people out of
1:00:59both ends of this machine but you have
1:01:02to pick away and so this is the way that
1:01:04we pick I would maybe even thinking this
1:01:07is the least destructive method we know
1:01:09of coming up with something not even
1:01:12efficient but something that's
1:01:13sustainable and doable
1:01:15yeah because ultimately people who get
1:01:17things done are more valuable than
1:01:19people who don't get things done so
1:01:21let's just say that you know but in fact
1:01:24there really aren't people sitting up on
1:01:26top of managing the system from the top
1:01:30down who know what they're doing like
1:01:32every one of these systems has kind of
1:01:34evolved just haphazardly and it is it is
1:01:39an accidental kind of hive up that has
1:01:43built where this is the byproduct of it
1:01:46and a lot of that is I think because
1:01:50prior to now we didn't have the
1:01:52technology to do it a different way
1:01:54really are i mean you know this is the
1:01:56technology has evolved at the same time
1:01:59that these systems have evolved and so
1:02:02it's all you know it's it's like a big
1:02:03ant hill that just keeps getting built
1:02:06and falling down and built and falling
1:02:07down but but
1:02:09we have now the ability to at least
1:02:13recognize that and and draw correlation
1:02:18between the fact that ok on the one hand
1:02:20we are increasingly producing a world of
1:02:23senior frogs and a world of like a frog
1:02:28they came
1:02:28well not only frog-leg kings but like
1:02:31everywhere you go now in America there's
1:02:34a senior frogs is that how you
1:02:36envisioned America evolving like in 1950
1:02:39when you were thinking of flying cars
1:02:41did you really think that there would
1:02:43also be a senior frogs every in every
1:02:44beach town like was that the plan is
1:02:47this a plan like we are getting our
1:02:50culture is getting Dumber we are getting
1:02:53less interesting at an exponential rate
1:02:57we are privileged engaging we are
1:03:00privileged nging meas we are we are just
1:03:03sucking from the from the firehose of of
1:03:07idiocracy and it's because we have not
1:03:11adjusted or recalibrated our systems and
1:03:15this anthill is like our anthill is is
1:03:19starting to fall and the and the and
1:03:22part of that has to be the
1:03:24responsibility of the people that we've
1:03:26been sending to Princeton for the last
1:03:2720 30 40 years
1:03:29totally you know what I mean like we
1:03:31have been we have been choosing who goes
1:03:33to the next level and those people have
1:03:36been producing a an increasingly garbage
1:03:40culture it isn't just that we've emptied
1:03:44the asylums it is that the people who
1:03:46have the opportunity to make good
1:03:48choices are making bad choices because
1:03:50they are cogs or because what we're
1:03:54calling imagination is not imagination
1:03:56and we need to I think recalibrate and
1:04:00fun and start saying like you know what
1:04:02maybe we need you know maybe the
1:04:05universities and this is the thing i
1:04:07don't think we can reform the
1:04:08university's I think we
1:04:10who are outside of this culture need to
1:04:13start saying the universities are not
1:04:15where we need to look and the like if
1:04:21you want an education you can now get
1:04:23one on your own
1:04:26we can we can start building educational
1:04:29models that are outside of this whole um
1:04:34like a cattle chute that we have spent
1:04:39the last hundred years designing to to
1:04:43find the the smartest people and outside
1:04:47of that cattle chute we can teach
1:04:48ourselves and we can start to prize and
1:04:52value other qualities and
1:04:54characteristics because when i was 19
1:04:57years old maybe there was a chance that
1:04:59I could have kicked down the door into
1:05:03that world still just by sheer force of
1:05:06will and like good essay and
1:05:09interpretive dance or whatever but those
1:05:12days are gone there's no way a person
1:05:14like me could make it to it could make
1:05:20it through that system now
1:05:22no it's just starting to think that you
1:05:24know it's just all with all the the
1:05:26high-stakes testing that goes on
1:05:28throughout a public school education now
1:05:30and having to like more and more find
1:05:32yourself through this funnel of getting
1:05:34more and more to be the kind of person
1:05:36that a college would be interested or
1:05:38for that matter to a preschooler that a
1:05:40private elementary school would one and
1:05:42that makes you something then you get
1:05:43out you gotta be a feeder elementary
1:05:45school to get to a good middle school
1:05:46and so on and so forth until eventually
1:05:48you know your edges have been sanded off
1:05:51to where you fit into I don't / / say it
1:05:54but it's kind of crazy to me like that
1:05:56really feels kind of real you've got to
1:05:58have this number of extracurricular
1:06:00activities
1:06:00you gotta have this many things going on
1:06:02and that is for the privilege of paying
1:06:0340 thousand dollars a year to go to
1:06:05college rights to me work it's a little
1:06:07bit crazy
1:06:07well and and just look at like look who
1:06:11are heroes are um if you if you want to
1:06:17look at I mean Bill Gates or
1:06:22or Mark Zuckerberg and say like well you
1:06:28know these guys they went to Harvard
1:06:30they dropped out they started these
1:06:32billion-dollar companies like these are
1:06:34our heroes and if you look at Mark
1:06:38Zuckerberg and Bill Gates these guys are
1:06:41not my hero
1:06:43they are not our heroes they are not
1:06:45heroes at all like these are these are
1:06:48not um you know maybe bill gates has
1:06:51become a likeable guy and maybe heat
1:06:54through a combination of PR like devoted
1:06:58millions and millions of dollars of
1:07:00people working on him to make him appear
1:07:05in public as a pleasant person who has a
1:07:08good heart who is giving his money away
1:07:10for clean water like Bill Gates has has
1:07:14become a honorable character in the
1:07:19world but Bill Gates is a fucking frog
1:07:22leg king and so as Zuckerberg like
1:07:26neither one of these guys are are like
1:07:28heroic humans they aren't even full
1:07:32humans they're just guys who like had
1:07:36one idea and and did it to the exclusion
1:07:40of all other human activity all about do
1:07:44some combination of I don't wanna play
1:07:45negatively but like psychosis or grit
1:07:47was able to stick with it so long that
1:07:50they pushed it through to become what
1:07:52they wanted and then it evolved yeah
1:07:54they pushed it through and what is it
1:07:55exactly when bill gets his case it was
1:07:57some it was some word processing
1:07:59programs that ran on a fucking little
1:08:02game box that everybody decided we all
1:08:06needed to have at home because the
1:08:09typewriter wasn't good enough for
1:08:11whatever I mean it took it took 15 years
1:08:13of personal computers being pretty much
1:08:16boat anchors before they were really
1:08:20better than a typewriter and mimeograph
1:08:22machine you know it wasn't that long ago
1:08:25that we were I mean I'm still being
1:08:26asked to fact shit to people like the
1:08:30training wheels are still on
1:08:32and Zuckerberg did what he built the
1:08:34thing that that does what that we all go
1:08:38and placed our time on sending baby
1:08:40pictures back and forth like okay
1:08:42pioneers sure
1:08:44ok they've made a thing fine this is
1:08:47where we are now we're in a post
1:08:51facebook world but are we happy about it
1:08:54was that really good
1:08:56was that really the best we could have
1:08:58come up with facebook was the bus tub
1:09:00was the next thing that human beings
1:09:03devised point out there you know that it
1:09:06even that set the mark
1:09:08yeah like it is now there's no denying
1:09:11it
1:09:11it did happen it is a thing and it is an
1:09:13enormous thing and it has it has
1:09:15adjusted our course for the future we
1:09:18will always now live in a world that is
1:09:20post facebook but I do not see it as
1:09:22heroic or Google or even good and
1:09:26zuckerberg is not a she is no fucking
1:09:29Lancelot he's just up
1:09:32he's a guy who got where he is because
1:09:34we decided a certain type of person was
1:09:37going to succeed in schools and he got
1:09:40to a place and now he produced a thing
1:09:42that is the direct result of of how we
1:09:45decide who goes to college and we're
1:09:48living in a in a world where all the all
1:09:51the restaurants that used to have
1:09:52hand-carved turkey sandwiches have been
1:09:55torn down and turned into senior frogs
1:09:57and I don't fucking like it i think it's
1:10:02a bad world magnets and certainly it's
1:10:05bad on a cultural social level better it
1:10:07seems like a live is affecting the kind
1:10:09of food that you have available that the
1:10:11kind of food and the kind of brain food
1:10:14yes you know i like I realized the other
1:10:16day this is a crazy thing but you know
1:10:19Merlin I was never bored in my life when
1:10:22I was a kid I was never bored when I was
1:10:24a teenager I was never bored you know
1:10:26you never ever ever would have heard
1:10:28from me i'm bored because if I was left
1:10:32alone and I had anything if I was left
1:10:35alone and I had two pebbles I would
1:10:37devise a little thing with two pebbles
1:10:39that would keep me interested not just
1:10:41occupied
1:10:43but interested I wasn't bored when I was
1:10:46a drunk I wasn't bored at any you know
1:10:49really at any job I had because once i
1:10:51got how to do the job then I could let
1:10:54my mind Rome and it was just like doing
1:10:58to a road job and let your mind be free
1:11:00but lately i have discovered i have
1:11:04found myself being bored and why because
1:11:08i look at my phone all the fucking time
1:11:10and I'm looking at my phone all the time
1:11:12and it's extended its exciting and I
1:11:14like the internet and i'm on the Twitter
1:11:16and I'm floating around and im looking
1:11:17at stuff and I'm looking stuff up but
1:11:20all of a sudden in the afternoon
1:11:22sometimes I'll be like oh god I'm just
1:11:24so fucking bored and I realize it's
1:11:29because i'm looking at my phone all the
1:11:33time and it has the collected world
1:11:35knowledge on it and yet the interface
1:11:40with it and the and what I'm how I'm
1:11:43using it what I'm seeking out there and
1:11:45I don't think I'm any different from
1:11:46anybody else
1:11:47it's producing this novel sensation me
1:11:52which is like the boredom of access to
1:11:54everything and the boredom of you know
1:11:58of navigating a world that was created
1:12:01you know in a way with no imagination
1:12:06the architecture of this this phone
1:12:10based internet world has a decided lack
1:12:13of imagination be like built into the
1:12:16fabric of it it's just you know it's
1:12:19what people who were told they had
1:12:22imagination built and everybody
1:12:26congratulated them and they were like
1:12:27thanks a lot you know if did you notice
1:12:29that the back button takes you back and
1:12:33the forward button takes you forward and
1:12:35did you notice also you can scroll over
1:12:37here and you can look at that and you
1:12:39click on the add and it goes to the next
1:12:41thing it's just like you know what yeah
1:12:42i did notice that and fuck you guy it's
1:12:44not that great
1:12:46let's talk about all the president's men
1:12:55haha ok yeah I I side another girl haha