0:00:00hello hi jata hai Berlin how's it going
0:00:11good good super good except that I
0:00:18thought I had more coffee than I have no
0:00:21you know the raw materials that the
0:00:24beans i had you know one of the things
0:00:28about having people stay over at your
0:00:29house is that you're not anymore in
0:00:33charge of any aspect of your stores just
0:00:37got you guys just keep relearning that
0:00:39over and over
0:00:40you know that right it's one of those
0:00:43things you know
0:00:45yep you know when i had the the game
0:00:48changers up here who at some point after
0:00:52after the game changers weekend I went
0:00:55you know I went into the pantry thinking
0:00:58I had X number of certain items mostly
0:01:04hobby software keep our cigars yeah
0:01:07bacon and it was all gone but it was
0:01:10like it was like locusts that come
0:01:12through and I felt like Richard Gere out
0:01:14i should have just started a fire in my
0:01:18house and burden like Elizabeth Taylor
0:01:20you open your closet expect to see all
0:01:22those beautiful gowns and Underpants
0:01:24it's just just ma's laughing at you but
0:01:27the monster gone so yeah so I flew a
0:01:31little bit close to the Sun letting
0:01:33other people in my kitchen and now I
0:01:35went downstairs I was like time for a
0:01:36pot of coffee and what I found instead
0:01:39was a refrigerator full of ice cream
0:01:44well first of all freezer full of ice
0:01:47cream a refrigerator full of ice cream
0:01:49would have been a disaster but you know
0:01:51my am I i went to a birthday party and
0:01:54then somebody got somebody got the idea
0:01:58that the leftovers we're going to go
0:01:59with me but only certain leftovers and
0:02:02what that ended up being was like four
0:02:05gallons of ice cream is a good ice cream
0:02:07yeah it's fine like kid ice cream and no
0:02:10no it's not ice milk it's ice cream
0:02:13no care of it this way you know what
0:02:17they say God never closes a door without
0:02:19opening some ice cream
0:02:21I i love God God is you know I this is
0:02:26probably just from my background in my
0:02:28fear of probation but like I don't like
0:02:30running out of things
0:02:31mm no I think I think my lady and I we
0:02:34don't disagree on this is just that it
0:02:36means a lot to me to make sure that
0:02:38there's another guy's got one in the
0:02:39chamber right well you're a guy who
0:02:41drinks 20 cams of carbonated water a day
0:02:45have you cut back well the problem is
0:02:49you know i've been using the the
0:02:51SodaStream thing when you buy a big tank
0:02:53know you and I've been out of that for a
0:02:55while and i've been really lazy because
0:02:57you've got to take in your empties each
0:02:59one of those things wait a few pounds
0:03:00you have to get in and train them in so
0:03:02I falling back into my old ways and i
0:03:05begin 12-packs of cans and my wife does
0:03:08not like the cans
0:03:10yeah because I drink seriously I do
0:03:12drink / 12 pack of those a day
0:03:14yeah well I'm the thing about the cans I
0:03:17mean I haven't been to your house in
0:03:19awhile but why remember the can era the
0:03:23thing about those Kansas that there's
0:03:24you know which end up with this like six
0:03:26or seven cans with some carbonated water
0:03:29in them kind of lying around
0:03:31that's me there's like half a carat
0:03:33carbonated water here half a can of
0:03:35carbonated water there and loses its
0:03:37carbonation pretty fast and that's just
0:03:40pop cans full of water
0:03:42yeah i yeah okay sure what i do is what
0:03:46happens with me is I usually slam like i
0:03:48usually out down down a 12 count can
0:03:50pretty quick and i started another one
0:03:52and that's the 1i forget is the second
0:03:54or third one and this yeah they did they
0:03:56accumulate and you can pretty much you
0:03:58know there's that sense of like you're
0:03:59going to walk into a room and you're
0:04:00like I just know there's going to be in
0:04:01this case like a can of seltzer and then
0:04:04there is one by the bed on my daughter's
0:04:06bed is a couple by the couch
0:04:09that's how you know you have a problem
0:04:11when you're when you you're leaving your
0:04:13hands around your daughter's bed she
0:04:16thinks she's better than me that's not
0:04:18better than me
0:04:19I mean I understand slamming a can of
0:04:22seltzer water if you're just about to
0:04:23get into a burp fight with somebody
0:04:25who but I don't like slam and one it
0:04:29seems like the opposite of what seltzer
0:04:31is good at I feel so good
0:04:33burns it burns like drinking beer you
0:04:36know I think I started drinking Seltzer
0:04:39more around the time I stopped drinking
0:04:41beer
0:04:42I used to drink a lot of beer and i
0:04:45think i like the it's kind of like my
0:04:48ethernet cigarette I guess I i like i
0:04:51like these things a lot in there are
0:04:52there was a refresh me anytime I get up
0:04:54something to get Miller night to urinate
0:04:55as you do and I'll just go boom have
0:04:57seltzer
0:04:58yeah right and it's not it's no calories
0:05:00no fuss no muss you don't owe anybody
0:05:02anything but then I then I crushed and
0:05:04throw it against the wall and wake
0:05:05everybody up
0:05:06fuck you a public you think that's
0:05:09outlive him
0:05:10yeah yeah I think intelligence by on my
0:05:12all-time favorite professors in college
0:05:14my was on the committee my poetry
0:05:16professor is my sponsor most of the time
0:05:18i was there he added he was one of those
0:05:21people were like I just don't know how
0:05:23he felt his life was really complicated
0:05:25you know you don't make even you know as
0:05:28a full professor at florida university
0:05:29you don't make that that much money
0:05:32you're getting paid and seeds and stems
0:05:35and he had is a his mom who is you know
0:05:39completely like need a total total care
0:05:42live with them his his son who is
0:05:45developmentally disabled live with him
0:05:47some of the time he taught at other
0:05:49places at the same time multiple women
0:05:53yeah this is a guy you know what the
0:05:55Princeton was one of the first
0:05:56professors at school is a great guy like
0:05:58anybody wants a new college remember Mac
0:06:00Miller he was just the best but you can
0:06:01tell stress Macklemore Macklemore Miller
0:06:04that's right with ryan lewis and what he
0:06:06would do is though he's always smoking
0:06:07two things about Max's first of all like
0:06:10you've never actually seen Mac drink a
0:06:11beer
0:06:12he would bring it bring out some of the
0:06:13braincase your class and and you would
0:06:17you don't hear the beer
0:06:18those were the days you hear ya haha
0:06:20alright dude your hips you look and it
0:06:25was like against the doctor who
0:06:26references like the the weeping angels
0:06:27you can actually see the move
0:06:29you don't see anything here was and then
0:06:31you look back here and crushing the can
0:06:34and something with cigarettes he was and
0:06:36he's one of those guys like Matthew
0:06:37McConaughey smoker like
0:06:39you really each one was like a little
0:06:40conjugal visit like he smoke the shit
0:06:42out of a cigarette in front of a
0:06:45classroom every smoking class is a lot
0:06:47of time haha ok I got talking about my
0:06:50school and you can make up your own
0:06:53classes there and yeah it's kinda like I
0:06:56don't know if you ever saw the Grateful
0:06:58Dead I was uh yeah okay for you saw them
0:07:01saw the shit no I was born to basically
0:07:05create I like rock music ah i was
0:07:09fortunate to see them live three shots
0:07:10sure back when the early nineties you i
0:07:12fell in you fell in with the deadheads
0:07:14lady lady
0:07:16by the early nineties i was already i
0:07:17was already transitioned touch of grey
0:07:19spoke to you look really good
0:07:21well you know what it was it was that I
0:07:23couldn't afford birkenstock so they were
0:07:26costly they were expensive and all the
0:07:29cool kids had him for that for that that
0:07:31one summer I think it was the summer of
0:07:3488 they think they got big fast
0:07:37oh and it was Birkenstocks everywhere
0:07:39all the you know it was you know what it
0:07:40was Birkenstocks and mountain bikes they
0:07:42were both they both became popular that
0:07:45that same summer before 1988 levels get
0:07:48a whole chapter about that is that right
0:07:50huh
0:07:50before nine point yeah there was no
0:07:53mountain bikes I've never heard of a
0:07:55mountain bike if you wanted to ride your
0:07:57bike off road
0:07:58you got a BMX bike got a big BMX bike if
0:08:02you were full-grown person then all of a
0:08:04sudden mountain bikes were invented and
0:08:07but everybody was wearing Birkenstocks
0:08:08and I was like I don't have them
0:08:10I campaign ninety dollars for a pair of
0:08:12sandals I don't have any money and I
0:08:15don't have any money to get a mountain
0:08:16bike and i'm getting left behind here
0:08:18and I feel like that was also the summer
0:08:21that everybody was where everybody was
0:08:24wearing raybans not Wayfarers they were
0:08:27wearing aviators wear a banner aviators
0:08:29and so I'm looking around looking to my
0:08:31left there's a guy in ray ban aviators
0:08:33with Birkenstocks is riding a mountain
0:08:35bike i looked to my right same same
0:08:37story and I'm i got nothing so i was
0:08:41like i'm gonna start going to seek see
0:08:43great that whenever i can just to try
0:08:46and just trying to even the playing
0:08:48field
0:08:49but one of the things about seeing the
0:08:50Grateful Dead was Jerry Garcia become
0:08:54Jerry Jerry Jerry he called papa with
0:08:57that he's got a name
0:08:58hi Jerry Jerry care i think jer if
0:09:02you're really into it there Jerry would
0:09:05like in the middle of a solo butta baby
0:09:09food will be provided it means we can
0:09:11have that you can have a middle to
0:09:12something that's never ended it would he
0:09:17would walk he would walk kind of around
0:09:20behind his amp let's go to cook and
0:09:24Craft services the solo would keep going
0:09:27and there would be and then from behind
0:09:31the amp that would be a cloud of smoke
0:09:33and i don't mean like I don't mean like
0:09:36somebody took a puff of a cigarette
0:09:37I mean like somebody i mean like the
0:09:39cloud of smoke like they release when
0:09:40the Pope is chosen like like bows from
0:09:45behind the amp like oh holy shit jerky
0:09:47it just caught on fire spontaneously
0:09:49combusted and then you come up and come
0:09:51back out from around the amp the solo
0:09:53never stopped and I don't know what all
0:09:56went on behind the am but I think about
0:10:00it still like I think about a night at
0:10:03the time I was like not that's living /
0:10:05he goes back there he probably goes into
0:10:08one of those john travolta Bubble Boy
0:10:10tense over and all the drugs and he just
0:10:18he confuses us kid
0:10:20he isn't a dream job though i mean the
0:10:24the idea that like that is set aside the
0:10:26whole plan in a rock band that's that's
0:10:27awesome enough to begin with a pseudo
0:10:28rock band but just the idea that you
0:10:30could still keep doing your job
0:10:31disappear for a while into a puff of
0:10:34indeterminate smoke and everybody would
0:10:37still be just as satisfied with your job
0:10:38that dream if you go around behind your
0:10:40amp and you and your drug ballot have
0:10:43like a bong wrangler I'm sure he did and
0:10:47he's still play he's still playing his
0:10:49guitar
0:10:50www.getcash people are people are
0:10:54sticking needles in people
0:10:56chin up nose and it's like the indy 500
0:10:59pace car that's right DJ desire they're
0:11:02putting a suppository of it even a fresh
0:11:04liver and many turns back around never
0:11:07even stopped
0:11:08oh man it was extraordinary and I anyway
0:11:12to finish to finish that line of thought
0:11:14I never have only pair of birkenstocks
0:11:15even to this day it's a boy it's it's
0:11:19super frustrating to me as a as a
0:11:22contrarian yeah i really i hate how
0:11:25crazy it makes me feel when something
0:11:27suddenly becomes more than popular it
0:11:30just becomes something that everybody
0:11:32gets which is fine it's called fad but
0:11:35didn't react like second then we act
0:11:37like it's always been this necessary
0:11:40right right and and we nobody ever
0:11:42acknowledges how bananas it is it
0:11:44suddenly it's 1999 we don't know why but
0:11:47suddenly everybody needs a Bronco like
0:11:49everybody needs an SUV and just suddenly
0:11:51became this thing we're like well of
0:11:53course you got your back can't afford a
0:11:55Hummer so I got a Bronco it's like you
0:11:57know what were you doing with that Tyler
0:11:59soccer gear will fit into a country
0:12:01squire just fine
0:12:03yeah but only six that's not the point
0:12:04it's just that suddenly everybody's got
0:12:06to have that it's like the Calvin peeing
0:12:07on something stickers or stickers of
0:12:09like how many kids you have in your
0:12:10family or whatever it's like it suddenly
0:12:11becomes a thing and you gotta do it baby
0:12:13on board fully sixty percent of the
0:12:15vehicles on the road our SUVs i mean III
0:12:18don't know if that's an accurate but it
0:12:20sure seems that way to me everywhere you
0:12:21look every single car make has an SUV
0:12:24and that's a boy Adam for the cowboy hat
0:12:27of driving it's really it's really
0:12:29infuriating because they're terrible
0:12:32cars and they're bad trucks right right
0:12:35i mean this I mean and they need they're
0:12:38like a lot of those that they've never
0:12:39been in fourth gear or they've never
0:12:41been in four-wheel drive in their entire
0:12:43existence have definitely never been in
0:12:45fourth gear in four-wheel drive
0:12:48not unless their son took it out not
0:12:50unless i was driving yeah but yet but
0:12:54even even even as a contrarian and I
0:12:56I've called macrame it's a phenomenon
0:12:58that I simply call macrame because
0:13:00that's me in my lifetime is the
0:13:02canonical example of like what what is
0:13:05how
0:13:05happening why why do we suddenly have
0:13:08macrame and why is it suddenly something
0:13:10everybody's doing and not acting like
0:13:12it's weird that everybody's got jute you
0:13:14know what weird
0:13:15listen us macrame has a special place in
0:13:18my heart
0:13:19are we going out again we go back to the
0:13:21old topic home crafts and it is their
0:13:25place in artistic pantheon without
0:13:27macrame how would you suspend your
0:13:30terrarium yeah right
0:13:33how would you how would you have a
0:13:35terrarium in a in a giant glass globe
0:13:37hanging in your living see that use case
0:13:39you gotta eat yours is a terrarium owner
0:13:42if you need a hanging solution you do
0:13:44and macramé is it
0:13:46I don't think that's how most people do
0:13:47it well my last name is my family make
0:13:51my person my paternal grandmother was
0:13:53for her whole life a crafty person like
0:13:56she had been an area of the with what
0:13:59they called the utility room where she
0:14:00would make christmas ornaments she would
0:14:02make decoupage like every single one of
0:14:04those things that you've seen people
0:14:05make in the last 50 years she did it she
0:14:07was good at it
0:14:08scrapbooking well that's just that
0:14:11that's hoarding with a trip to Michael
0:14:12and basically haha but yeah right your
0:14:15majesty i don't i wasn't a hoarder i
0:14:17still have stuff around here either or
0:14:19sorry no offense I you know what my old
0:14:24houses a scrapbook my mom what
0:14:28everyone's well we'll will divest
0:14:30yourself of another box that she feels
0:14:32is like keeping her from being able to
0:14:34fly
0:14:35she's like I don't want this anymore and
0:14:36she hands me a box and all open and it
0:14:38seemed every once in awhile it will
0:14:39contain some like item of incredible
0:14:44lace or you know a super super like
0:14:49detailed handwork needlework that you
0:14:52would never ever you would be able to
0:14:55buy any price and she's like you know my
0:14:56grandmother made that my great
0:14:58grandmother made that and you're just
0:15:00imagining that the skill involved in the
0:15:05patriarchy training the women to be that
0:15:10involved in such a useless task so that
0:15:12they don't have a political power
0:15:16extraordinary but you got to keep their
0:15:17hands busy you do you have otherwise
0:15:19they're going to call meetings and stuff
0:15:20have to keep them thinking about
0:15:23something you think about lace what you
0:15:25think about think about lace and you
0:15:26talk to each other about lace let's talk
0:15:28more oily and meanwhile meanwhile we're
0:15:31buying your father's farm who is
0:15:36terrible turns around and got the early
0:15:38mustache too late
0:15:40yeah I always think about that late
0:15:43eighties time because if you recall this
0:15:46is a very difficult thing to explain to
0:15:48young people but there was a little of
0:15:51everything is explained to them haha
0:15:54tell me about those African necklaces
0:15:56that tell a soul war but that moment in
0:16:001988 where the nostalgia for 1968
0:16:04reached its Apogee and we basically the
0:16:10summer of 88 we relived the summer of 68
0:16:13except dumber lamer sugar in every
0:16:18respect
0:16:20I don't know if I don't know where you
0:16:21were on the I was pretty happy
0:16:24yeah right and and and even realize I
0:16:28was always a fake Marxist fake hippie
0:16:31fake punk rock but I was a happy guy but
0:16:34i mean i was i was heavily invested in
0:16:35what you can very loosely call
0:16:38alternative culture right and thats
0:16:41interesting culture had coalesced yet
0:16:43but also that at my school have to
0:16:44interview my school in their scientists
0:16:46of hippies they're like it with the the
0:16:48real remember that you may not remember
0:16:50the harmonic convergence was coming and
0:16:52it was like science for hippies like
0:16:54there was gonna be some big shit going
0:16:56down this is going to the native
0:16:56whatever the age after Aquarius is the
0:16:58age of libra I don't know what it was
0:16:59but something something serious was
0:17:01going to be going down night 1990 is
0:17:04going to make 19 670 look like no was it
0:17:08was a dennis hopper quote from the movie
0:17:101969 no no it wasn't it was a dennis
0:17:14hopper quote from another movie that he
0:17:16started with Kiefer Sutherland hd8 know
0:17:20it will but it wasn't a retro movie it
0:17:22was a it was a contemporary movie where
0:17:23he wear his quote was his big cock was
0:17:26I wasn't 1989 is going to make 1969 look
0:17:31like 1979 or something like that 1989 is
0:17:37gonna make check the source 1990 is
0:17:40going to make 1970 look like 1980 no.19
0:17:44that the 1990s is gonna make 1969 look
0:17:51like 1950s something like that it was a
0:17:54real put down i'll just have to take
0:17:56that whole-ass a t-test yeah you got a
0:18:00shopper SI t you just got to the
0:18:01coloring portion of the the point being
0:18:06that that that there was there was
0:18:08really and and i remember seeing that
0:18:09movie that was the that was that that
0:18:13may be the one year where I went to see
0:18:16every movie and that 1969 with the with
0:18:21the 110 rider and the and the junkie
0:18:25that plays the superhero now
0:18:28Oh Robert Downey jr. Robert Downey jr.
0:18:31you know like I teared up in that movie
0:18:35I teared up as crosby Stills and Nash
0:18:39use wooden ships played and that and
0:18:42they got in their vote beat the two main
0:18:44characters got in the Box wagon bus and
0:18:45headed out across America like that I
0:18:50was like and I was being spoon-fed
0:18:52sixties nostalgia and and and and I was
0:19:00allowing it to be my own use
0:19:03like I was
0:19:05I was 20 and i was looking at this movie
0:19:08about 20 year olds from 20 years before
0:19:11and liked and weeping that I didn't have
0:19:14a Vietnam you know to be mad about fucks
0:19:17my vietnam vietnam and the and you know
0:19:22and that lasted I mean that lasted
0:19:24honestly until a grunge I'm sad to say
0:19:28but like that sense of that sense of the
0:19:34sixties being this being this shadow on
0:19:39our youth that our generation just was
0:19:44like laboring under this nineteen
0:19:46sixties cloud and yeah I was a hippie
0:19:53and what the fuck was I looking for i
0:19:55was looking for is partly I think it's
0:19:58because the sixties generation never
0:20:00produced anything after the sixties you
0:20:05know they were stuck in our inner in a
0:20:07complete retro nostalgia trip about
0:20:09themselves and there were so many of a
0:20:11moose they were so powerful that they
0:20:14just like that's weird it's almost like
0:20:16the sixties ended in 1968 but kind of
0:20:19didn't really end until nineteen eighty
0:20:21i well I'm gonna go watch boogie nights
0:20:24or something like that and like it
0:20:26really it really is like people really
0:20:28thought stuff was gonna be really really
0:20:31different but I'm i would argue that it
0:20:33that it lasted until nineteen ninety
0:20:35from in the same kind of like a in the
0:20:40same like frozen states because your
0:20:45expectations like enough time for the
0:20:47that generation that baby boomers to
0:20:51come into power and purchase purchasing
0:20:54and political power like there was this
0:20:56latent period where it should have just
0:20:57gone away but then right about the time
0:20:58it should have gone away they were the
0:21:00ones out there who are like you know you
0:21:02get the big chill culture coming around
0:21:03again
0:21:04right right of well yeah that there's
0:21:07that I mean that that that all through
0:21:09the seventies I think they were still I
0:21:12mean most of those people were like
0:21:14really into x and high-five high-five
0:21:16stereo systems I mean I'm just
0:21:18basing this on old copies of we magazine
0:21:20but starting in nineteen eighty like
0:21:27they were so let's think about the baby
0:21:29boomers for second as much as I hate to
0:21:30do it in 1980 let's say the average baby
0:21:34boomer was 30 years old and they are a
0:21:39little bit taken their taken by surprise
0:21:41by punk rock new wave and disco I mean
0:21:44disco I think they were they were on
0:21:46board but punk rock new wave it that's
0:21:50brand-new and and editing and it doesn't
0:21:55involve them it's not about them and so
0:21:59they even at 30 years old that
0:22:02generation starts to turn back and look
0:22:08at themselves as a unit they start to
0:22:12circle the wagons and that's what that's
0:22:15the that's the beginning of when you
0:22:17start to see this like well really
0:22:19nothing ever happened after the sixties
0:22:21like really the sixties with the peak
0:22:23like 1968 that was the peak you know
0:22:27yeah you started to hear that idea in
0:22:31American culture and and that that
0:22:36natural thing I mean in 1992 n it at
0:22:39every point along the way you look back
0:22:4110 years and go boy things really suck
0:22:4310 years ago and then ten years after
0:22:45that you're like wow things were amazing
0:22:4620 years ago
0:22:47you know there's that there's that
0:22:49strange skips a mini generation kinda
0:22:51yeah and and you can I mean you remember
0:22:54how much shit we talked about the music
0:22:56of the seventies we talked so much shit
0:22:59about the music of the seventies or in
0:23:02the late eighties early nineties i mean
0:23:05i-i had multiple conversations with
0:23:07people where everybody accepted the
0:23:09basic premise which was that the
0:23:11seventies were the worst Joe the worst
0:23:14decade for music it can only be enjoyed
0:23:15ironically it was only 20 years but I
0:23:18mean I remember like for example and
0:23:19have a nice day collection came out
0:23:21which is full of like am radio hits that
0:23:23I loved as a kid and still really like
0:23:24today but it's all very it was very
0:23:26ironic you know effect from from removed
0:23:29and I remember that
0:23:31oh it's a look at this garbage the best
0:23:33like think about 20 like got popular and
0:23:36around the time that like house music
0:23:37was starting to really get big and
0:23:39raving was making a pre raising kind of
0:23:41age but still like the whole idea of
0:23:43these like massive dance parties is
0:23:44coming around that were very in some
0:23:46ways very influenced by the by certain
0:23:48sixties kind of five so far as justice
0:23:50as you said before della soul that right
0:23:53first record very very sixties
0:23:56graphically and the daily Sasha the days
0:24:00eh LOL dayz age y'all but the the the
0:24:04thing about this also i like how in
0:24:061990s safe in 1992 like clothes from
0:24:121972 look so preposterous so you'd see
0:24:14like Susanna Hoffs like ironically
0:24:17wearing bell-bottoms in a video or
0:24:18something or you think about the delight
0:24:20video which is having a lot of fun with
0:24:21that iconography but the thing is stuff
0:24:23from 1972 looks timeless compared to
0:24:26what people are wearing in 1992 go watch
0:24:28it go into early sign fell and you're
0:24:30like oh my god people i mean the
0:24:32nineties is so much more eighties in the
0:24:34eighties ever was
0:24:35yeah are you hip now to the to this new
0:24:37the little or no guard earth where you
0:24:42know of course it's like artisanal toast
0:24:43i think that's got to be a prank people
0:24:45are wearing mock turtlenecks and that
0:24:50dad jeans and I thing is you know i read
0:24:53i read a couple of articles about it
0:24:55where it's like is this real
0:24:56but I mean I i know some kids and Israel
0:24:59there there
0:25:00the kids are rocking not just Cosby
0:25:03sweaters but like to the next level of
0:25:05ya registration scott simpson was ahead
0:25:09of this all along
0:25:10yeah he was wearing mock turtlenecks the
0:25:12entire time before it was uncool up so I
0:25:16don't know I I still I still feel a
0:25:18little bit of of of resent resentment
0:25:22like a little bit of residual resentment
0:25:26about the way the sixties
0:25:33[Music]
0:25:34the the way this the urine smell of the
0:25:36sixties was all over the music of the
0:25:39late eighties I'm still mad at me
0:25:45that's why I'm exam that's why only
0:25:46always grown so that in the end the
0:25:48Birkenstocks and yeah that whole I mean
0:25:52you know I I feel like I dovin to drugs
0:25:55with at least a certain amount of
0:25:59expectation that I mean the way that's
0:26:04the way the sixties culture subculture
0:26:07looked back on itself and the way that
0:26:09drugs had freed their mind and the way
0:26:12that drugs were you know what separated
0:26:14them from the squares and you know that
0:26:16whole division that that might have been
0:26:19and I think probably was pretty poignant
0:26:23in 1962 through 64 like we're doing
0:26:27drugs no one else has ever even heard of
0:26:30them
0:26:30this is you know like we are really
0:26:32outside but but the matter the by the
0:26:37time the mass culture got ahold of drugs
0:26:39and it was just like a yeah all right
0:26:40you all right you bunch of spoiled kids
0:26:43but when i was 17 18 years old
0:26:46that was back in them and you know and
0:26:49I'm not even saying it was in that it
0:26:51was in the top level of the culture but
0:26:52it was it was throughout the culture
0:26:57this wing king between baby boomers like
0:27:00remember remember the ship we saw
0:27:03remember the drugs and the times and all
0:27:06the sex remember and at 17 and / you
0:27:10know perceptive of of subtexts I was
0:27:13like well yeah i wanna do the drugs and
0:27:16and have the section and run away and
0:27:19Volkswagen button and and protest the
0:27:23war me when we had a course ronald
0:27:25reagan that could stand in for a lot of
0:27:29the it could stand in for fifties
0:27:32suburban culture that we were rebelling
0:27:34against but yeah I would have liked to
0:27:39have at the one regret I have had not
0:27:42being punk
0:27:45is that punk legitimately was its own
0:27:50what was a subculture of my time that I
0:27:54could have participated in more actively
0:27:58and it would have felt like it belonged
0:27:59to me over and instead i rejected punk
0:28:03for a you know for a handful of valid
0:28:09reasons but instead i was i was sampling
0:28:14from this buffet of other American
0:28:18cultures that none of them belong to me
0:28:20and they were all kind of Lies and and
0:28:27now and i look back at that time 80
0:28:29let's say 87 through 90 one as a time
0:28:33like I just I feel a little bit ashamed
0:28:37even through because I feel ashamed that
0:28:41I when I went to the Grateful Dead not
0:28:44that I not because of the music but
0:28:45because i was i went there looking for
0:28:48I wasn't looking for a party I was
0:28:51looking for enlightenment and that seems
0:28:55idiotic to me now
0:28:57yeah i can see that i felt that way
0:29:02going to see like you to in 1985 you're
0:29:08looking for enlightenment a kind of
0:29:10enlightenment they were they were
0:29:11transcendent in a lot of ways
0:29:13no I mean look at the charts dude your
0:29:15beloved Phil Collins you got Whitney
0:29:17Houston you got Billy ocean you got
0:29:19sharda and then you got them singing
0:29:21about Martin Luther King I mean it
0:29:22really seemed very important to me and
0:29:24their shows were very you know it was I
0:29:27I'm not gonna sit here and i'm super
0:29:29wise or anything now but I i think i
0:29:31understand a little bit more about
0:29:32stagecraft today then I then I did then
0:29:35understanding stagecraft is probably
0:29:37part of what allows you to enjoy the
0:29:38miley cyrus thinking like oh my god
0:29:40now that you're officially an old man
0:29:41you're allowed to go to things go how
0:29:42did they do that
0:29:44that must have been expensive care about
0:29:48the lawsuit
0:29:49miley cyrus has a lawsuit yeah well
0:29:51who's sooner
0:29:52one of the guys who worked on the tongue
0:29:53got injured oh bummer
0:29:57all the time when the tongue builders
0:29:58see my experience is so vastly different
0:30:01because up and just finish the story
0:30:02from an hour ago somebody you could tell
0:30:04when that when that Professor was
0:30:05getting really stressed out because he
0:30:07started second cigarette already
0:30:10everyone was still burning
0:30:11yeah and a couple occasions and these
0:30:12days you did now these are the days when
0:30:14he said let's sit here and go through
0:30:15the pile and talk about what everybody
0:30:16get wrong today when he was really
0:30:18stressed fact he would actually
0:30:20sometimes get a third cigarette lit and
0:30:21that's when you just like SAT very
0:30:22quietly you can be a bad classes going
0:30:25to top that is called pathetic fallacy
0:30:28Rose can't have an angry for no that
0:30:30doesn't make any sense literally doesn't
0:30:32make any sense that was me it was me
0:30:34apparently
0:30:35thank you sore nose is angry throwing a
0:30:37call it twice that week it was a nose as
0:30:39an angry thorn it mrs. before that I
0:30:41think was it
0:30:41I don't even know I can't even keep
0:30:43track but the thing is this school was
0:30:45such a little funky petri dish it's in
0:30:47sarasota florida there were five hundred
0:30:50and twenty students in this entire
0:30:52college when I went there everybody you
0:30:54I mean I honestly set can say my
0:30:56products my memory was better but I knew
0:30:58at least the first name of every person
0:31:00who went to the school and I had talked
0:31:02to well over a majority probably eighty
0:31:05percent as an RA for a year I knew
0:31:07everybody and I'm barge had been yeah
0:31:09everybody nobody I i went through
0:31:12periods where i was barefoot for a while
0:31:13it goes to a barefoot phase that's
0:31:15something you could do at this school
0:31:16because we were it was a total it was
0:31:19this little speaking of terrariums it
0:31:20really was like a terrarium like
0:31:22it'sit's I hate you know it's funny to
0:31:25admit even at the time I was aware of
0:31:26stuff like all the campus cops were by
0:31:29and large read retired New York City
0:31:32police officers who moved to Florida one
0:31:34of the guys have worked on a boat that
0:31:36the drag the East River another guy's
0:31:38been a homicide cop and they moved to
0:31:41Florida retired to Sarasota and they get
0:31:42all fat and they worked at this college
0:31:44for essentially they protected us they
0:31:46didn't bust us they would have gotten if
0:31:47we are egregious and dicks they would
0:31:49bust us violence they protected us from
0:31:50the community and people came to these
0:31:52parties who want the enlightened drug
0:31:54users that we were they roll them and it
0:31:56was just strange though to have four
0:31:58years in that environment at that time
0:32:00so think about you know it's funny to
0:32:02look up Big Chill I i would have guessed
0:32:05picture came out like 86 came out 1983
0:32:08yeah it's see that's what I'm saying it
0:32:09was
0:32:10it was the that's the beginning of that
0:32:12response to new wave where I mean in 83
0:32:18those big chill characters were in their
0:32:21early thirties right and they're already
0:32:23like getting back to the reunion 31
0:32:27years ago that Jeff Goldblum was in a
0:32:29movie 31-year well he's in Annie Hall in
0:32:31what 1977 bananas but anyway I'm just
0:32:34saying I know I i try to always 11 this
0:32:36am I remembering that my experience is
0:32:39not unique very different and it for me
0:32:41it really was like that first month in
0:32:43haight-ashbury before the heroine
0:32:44arrived it was it was a really amazing
0:32:46about and the parties on the weekends
0:32:48like the mixtapes that really were a hit
0:32:50would be like I white lines talking
0:32:55heads arm like a scratch perry like a
0:32:59reduced this crazy mix of music i had
0:33:01never heard in my entire life and then
0:33:03you might hear like institutionalized or
0:33:04something but whichever you want to
0:33:06dance too but it was a lot it was a lot
0:33:08of like hippies listen to like reggae
0:33:09and hip hop a lot of people from New
0:33:11York that came to the school brought
0:33:13along this culture with them I learned
0:33:14about def jam artists around the same
0:33:17time anyway it's just it's just strange
0:33:19because it was I felt like that just for
0:33:21that one four-year period was such a
0:33:22great time for me even though is you
0:33:25know tumultuous like this for anybody in
0:33:26their early twenties but uh it's then I
0:33:30think about what we like to go somewhere
0:33:31where you just had a ton of weed all the
0:33:33time like outside the terrarium and it
0:33:36scares the shit out of me
0:33:37well this is the thing I pardon me there
0:33:42was a handful of colleges that I and I
0:33:45had never heard of the new school of
0:33:47sarasota florida it's really really
0:33:49small
0:33:50it's it sounds amazing but the ones i
0:33:53was aware of a were get read read santa
0:33:57cruz santa cruz Colorado College
0:33:59masiello like evergreen evergreen I
0:34:05never considered but the aggregators
0:34:07there on the alternative colleges
0:34:09yeah and then you've got the ones like
0:34:10Colby at the become prettier ones that
0:34:14are still kind of small but but other
0:34:18like look like look like bit like
0:34:19liberal liberal arts college yeah your
0:34:21classic enabler
0:34:22antioch and so there was this this
0:34:28little constellation of schools that I
0:34:30that intrigued me and I think probably
0:34:34read was the one that I that I imagined
0:34:37myself at the most that that's in
0:34:41organization or yeah and all of those
0:34:44were places where you know the
0:34:45combination of smallness and
0:34:48exclusiveness and they were expensive
0:34:51and and they were they were places where
0:34:55young people could go and really explore
0:34:57and that was yet and the adults that
0:35:00were in charge felt like that was kind
0:35:02of their mandate like where this is a
0:35:04place for young people to explode but
0:35:07all those places were outside of my i
0:35:09could not reach them and so I was then
0:35:14in the I was basically like out in the
0:35:18world i mean gonzaga university was also
0:35:22small but was not a I mean what-what
0:35:24Gonzaga was was a place for young
0:35:27Catholic people to meet each other and
0:35:29get married before they graduate
0:35:32however remind me how Jesuit the Jesuit
0:35:35part of the school is it was mostly just
0:35:38going through the motions or where you
0:35:39expected to be a person of faith
0:35:41no no I think that I think that the to
0:35:44compromise the judgment colleges make
0:35:46and that that I think all Catholic
0:35:49colleges make is that adults Catholicism
0:35:54is is widespread and diverse enough that
0:35:57you're always going to have half the
0:35:59population are just sort of affluent
0:36:02practicing Catholics but not real
0:36:07thumpers about it who you know what I'm
0:36:12going to a conservative Christian
0:36:13University not at all what I got a
0:36:15mandate a reason for being there because
0:36:17of that one thing
0:36:18yeah if you want to be that if you want
0:36:20to go to Notre Dame and be be a real
0:36:23grind and spend all day in chapel there
0:36:26certainly happy to a comedy but those
0:36:29places are really a place to learn to
0:36:31drink
0:36:33in an adult way you know like you years
0:36:36to learn to be a polite wealthy
0:36:38alcoholic and and to meet and marry a
0:36:44respectable member of your same order
0:36:50right i mean this is where this is where
0:36:53you send your kid to find that to find a
0:36:55mate who is up your same creed and you
0:37:00know and obviously get a good education
0:37:01like pretty quick modification right
0:37:04because it's probably somebody Catholic
0:37:05it's gonna be his family some of his
0:37:07family is enough money to go to
0:37:08university and I mean it's got its got
0:37:10it built in Catholic and respectable and
0:37:12prosperous yes and but there's no so
0:37:16that the Jesuit component Gonzaga yeah
0:37:18there was a house where the judgments
0:37:19lived in a lot of them taught the
0:37:21classes but the judgments are going to
0:37:23their own internal mean they're having
0:37:26relationships with each other that are
0:37:27that are their primary relationships you
0:37:30know where they're related there on her
0:37:31on-again off-again relationship with God
0:37:33or whatever so there wasn't a sense at
0:37:37Gonzaga like here we are here if this is
0:37:41a giant sandbox where the where we're
0:37:43going to let these kids like discover
0:37:45the world if you wanted to discover the
0:37:47world they had they had God there that
0:37:52that that was you know that was
0:37:55available if you were philosophical but
0:37:57if you weren't philosophical there was
0:37:59no you it's a warning courage to be
0:38:02philosophical you know the basketball
0:38:04team was what was what
0:38:07most of the students cared about but I
0:38:11think that was probably an experience
0:38:13that was that was common to every small
0:38:16college in America at the time which is
0:38:18that that I was looking for
0:38:22I was looking for a an experience like
0:38:25the one you're describing it at newcomb
0:38:28new school college and
0:38:32and you know and making it for myself
0:38:34with a small group of friends out of
0:38:36whatever like pieces we could find and
0:38:39usually what that meant was we all
0:38:40climbed into a car and we drove down to
0:38:43riverfront park in Spokane and found
0:38:45some guy on the street that was selling
0:38:47acid and half the time it was just paper
0:38:50dipped in Arsenic and half the time it
0:38:53was like the most amazing acid you ever
0:38:55had in your life and how the hell did
0:38:56they add about some guy and the street
0:38:58in spokane have this stuff and then we
0:39:00would go uh you know take acid and go
0:39:04sit by the river and watch the water and
0:39:07think to ourselves
0:39:10whoa we are we are changing we are no
0:39:17we're not just it changing internally
0:39:19but we are some somehow through this
0:39:22process we are going to make the world a
0:39:24better place I don't know how we're not
0:39:26doing anything but taking drugs but
0:39:29somehow that is supposed to make the
0:39:31world better raising consciousness right
0:39:34somehow my my personal consciousness
0:39:36being changed is is an act of resistance
0:39:40and an active pull its political
0:39:42activism and you know in fact is right
0:39:46it's really passes certain that certain
0:39:49very brief threshold it's none of those
0:39:52things but but I didn't have a you know
0:39:56what it was I didn't have a god
0:39:58the only guide the only mentor i had was
0:40:04like I think most people was television
0:40:08or mass culture and and trying to trying
0:40:13to figure out what the hell what trying
0:40:15to understand what counterculture was
0:40:18just by watching its reflection in the
0:40:22the glasses of mass culture
0:40:25you know what I mean I think so that
0:40:28your it was from a from a certain remove
0:40:30or like almost like almost through
0:40:32translation you're trying to find
0:40:33something authentic and you're watching
0:40:36the shadows on the cave wall sort of
0:40:38exactly yeah there wasn't a like if I
0:40:42had ever met a 30-year old punk rocker
0:40:47who said hey man I know that this seems
0:40:50really stupid to you but there's more to
0:40:53it than that come with me and let me
0:40:56show you a couple of things you know I
0:40:58it but it but he wouldn't have had to
0:41:00have been a punk rocker if I never met a
0:41:01thirty-year-old anything could be
0:41:03somebody who runs a video store it could
0:41:05have been somebody who runs a video
0:41:06store that can be of that can be a real
0:41:08like life chain in a small way real life
0:41:11changing experience i'm gonna say hey go
0:41:12to check out the century you know it's
0:41:14in French you gotta read but like it's
0:41:16you're gonna learn some stuff here but i
0:41:18never had that
0:41:19no I never met and I think some of it is
0:41:22luck of the draw and some of it I think
0:41:23maybe is that maybe I was personally
0:41:26unappealing to 30 year olds when I was
0:41:2920 but to whatever degree that that
0:41:33gesture of taking a young person under
0:41:35your wing even for a moment and saying
0:41:38like hey i see where you are let me let
0:41:41me give you like let me read this book
0:41:44or whatever the the only exchanges like
0:41:48that I was having were either with peers
0:41:50or with much much older adults but
0:41:53nobody that was helping initiate me into
0:41:56the the simultaneous culture that's
0:42:02happening beneath and beside the visible
0:42:06culture and it took meal
0:42:09it took me many years 22 when my way
0:42:13through those corridors and find myself
0:42:15and and feel like a member of it myself
0:42:18that's really interesting to hear you
0:42:19say that because it's
0:42:22I think so
0:42:27can you understand then you can look at
0:42:29something like punk rockers or people
0:42:31who like neway films but can't you on
0:42:34some level also look at somebody who
0:42:36goes to like a Midwestern christian
0:42:38church and understand that it isn't just
0:42:40that they believe in the wizard in the
0:42:41sky there is an element of community to
0:42:43it
0:42:43for example i think that's what's common
0:42:45to all of these things is you finally
0:42:47found a place where you don't feel like
0:42:48an outsider for a little while and you
0:42:50found somebody who and it's so much as
0:42:53to timing that's the other part where
0:42:54you talk about a 30 year old person
0:42:55however person I mean you know you you
0:42:57in order to be a good teacher one of the
0:42:59basic tenets of expertise is
0:43:01understanding that in order to be a good
0:43:03teacher you have to understand the
0:43:04material extremely well but you also
0:43:06have to understand the level of
0:43:07expertise of the person you're talking
0:43:08to otherwise it's pointless right if
0:43:10you're the greatest calculus teacher in
0:43:12the world you it's you're going to have
0:43:15to modulate what you know to talk to the
0:43:17three-year-old and it's it's unusual to
0:43:20find I think it's unusual unless you're
0:43:23like Forrest Gump it's kind of unusual
0:43:25to meet more than a handful of people in
0:43:27your young adulthood who hit you at the
0:43:29right time with the right message to
0:43:31help you understand something that used
0:43:32to seem really opaque
0:43:34yeah so I mean and that's when things
0:43:37like the the punk rocker whatever I mean
0:43:39there's a lot of people look at the
0:43:40castro the castro is not just about
0:43:42intercourse
0:43:43it's about a place where people came for
0:43:45the first time in their life and felt
0:43:46like they weren't an outcast and that
0:43:48there was somebody else in the entire
0:43:49fucking world that was more like them
0:43:51than not like them the first time if you
0:43:54came here from not to be disparaging but
0:43:55if you came here from you know from
0:43:56Missouri or something you probably had
0:43:58not met a really super out guy who like
0:44:01dance on a parade float and was proud of
0:44:04it
0:44:04are you being this Virginia goods
0:44:06Missourians Oh or yes
0:44:09Castro I was theoretically sliding
0:44:11misery for its lack of dancing floating
0:44:14Missouri but that's but since like I can
0:44:17think of these people specific people
0:44:19somebody who maybe a tape that I meant
0:44:20like you know a couple times and gave me
0:44:22a tape of musical change my life for
0:44:23people like I went out to dinner with a
0:44:24couple times friends and my moms who
0:44:26were a little younger that just do all
0:44:27kinds of stuff about No Wave music and
0:44:30it's like I had no idea what they're
0:44:31talking about but it was a base they
0:44:33were so cool and they were so
0:44:35nice and they didn't talk down to me and
0:44:37they treated me like a pier and they
0:44:39made me feel like there is something
0:44:41understandable in this in this opaque
0:44:43culture and the problem pacity is the
0:44:45capacity reads as danger to most of us
0:44:48and sometimes extremely good reasons but
0:44:50anytime there's something out there
0:44:51whether something lot of people into or
0:44:53not many people are into I think if we
0:44:55don't immediately groc it's not unusual
0:44:57to go like oh that's not for me
0:44:58that's weird that's dangerous that's too
0:45:00mainstream that's whatever but it's it's
0:45:02just I feel you know I feel blast i
0:45:05guess to have been to have people come
0:45:07across my path where i wish i had more
0:45:09of them and I want to be that person
0:45:11somebody without being an asshole
0:45:12without going on here listen to Pixies
0:45:13like you no no that's okay i got playing
0:45:15music I'm good but you know necessarily
0:45:18really really good
0:45:20well I i think you were blessed and you
0:45:25know i'm i'm i'm reflecting now I'm who
0:45:29one time I i had ihop adopt afraid to an
0:45:36ad got off in Missoula and I'd made a
0:45:40mistake the the train pulled into
0:45:43Missoula and stopped and it SAT there
0:45:47and i'm sitting on the train and I'm you
0:45:50know I didn't understand how freight
0:45:53trains worked at this point yet and so
0:45:58I'm sitting in various with pitching
0:46:00your tent in a dump
0:46:02no this is after that ok after laughter
0:46:05I'm learning
0:46:06I mean I'm now I'm now successfully
0:46:08choosing freights that are going where I
0:46:10want them to go and i'm able to pick the
0:46:13train knowing its destination or having
0:46:17a general sense of its destination and
0:46:19get on it you know in more or less safe
0:46:22way
0:46:23but this so the train comes to Missoula
0:46:25and it just sits and sits here in the
0:46:27yard and sit here for 10 minutes to 24
0:46:2912 minutes and my my brain starts
0:46:34turning and I'm like oh I must have
0:46:39gotten on the wrong train this train was
0:46:40just going to Missoula and now it's done
0:46:42and it's a i'm sitting here in the hot
0:46:46Sun cowering hidden you know in this on
0:46:51this flat car full of beams or whatever
0:46:54it is and I should I i guess i should
0:46:59get off this train and find a better
0:47:00trainer or you know I was still I was
0:47:03still too i have my I was more anxious
0:47:08than I was knowledgeable so I jumped
0:47:11down off of the train and I you know I
0:47:14kind of run across the yard to to find
0:47:16some shelter find some shade and then
0:47:19immediately the train that I was on
0:47:20starts moving and pulls out and heads
0:47:24off to denver wherever i was i was
0:47:27trying to go and I was like fuck you
0:47:31know like there goes see you later like
0:47:33if I just stayed on it for another two
0:47:35minutes I would be out of here and on my
0:47:39way and now i'm stuck in Missoula and I
0:47:41got to go through this whole process of
0:47:43finding another train and getting out of
0:47:45here again so I walk into town and i
0:47:49know i know somebody at the college you
0:47:52mean I know you know I knew somebody
0:47:53that was going to school there and so I
0:47:54walk over them like kind of doing that
0:47:57thing that I would do it when I would be
0:47:59in a strange town I'd go to a first
0:48:01thing I do is go to college and try and
0:48:05find the common area the dining hall or
0:48:08the student center and I would just go
0:48:11find a couch there and took my bag
0:48:15behind the chair and just kind of sit
0:48:16and wait for something to happen and
0:48:18more often than not something did you
0:48:20know more often than not somebody would
0:48:21come along and say
0:48:23can I help you and I would say oh yeah
0:48:25i'm looking for this person and I swear
0:48:27to you eighty-five percent of the time
0:48:29no matter where i was even at Rutgers
0:48:31somebody would say that person the
0:48:34person the first person to walk up to me
0:48:35would say oh yeah I know them come with
0:48:38me and if they didn't know who I was
0:48:41looking for they would say oh let me ask
0:48:42this guy and the the next guy would know
0:48:45anyway i'm sitting in the lobby sitting
0:48:48in the student center and university of
0:48:50montana and this guy comes over and sits
0:48:52down next to me and he's like hey how's
0:48:54it going I'm like good and right away he
0:48:57starts talking about Jesus and I've been
0:49:02through it a thousand times already you
0:49:05know I don't I've been through every
0:49:07process the process of like I'm actually
0:49:09going to sit and talk to this guy about
0:49:10Jesus or I'm gonna I'm gonna beat this
0:49:13guy and act like a dummy and have fun
0:49:16with him or I'm gonna tell him to fuck
0:49:18off you know I'd i had i done everything
0:49:22that a young person could do and and now
0:49:26I was just in a place where it's like I
0:49:27don't have a strategy with this guy and
0:49:31frankly I'm I've been tired and I'm kind
0:49:36of feeling a little bit lost and so I'm
0:49:38just gonna I'm just gonna talk to this
0:49:40kind of just going to engage him just as
0:49:42a human being I'm not going to try and
0:49:43I'm not going to try and like it mind
0:49:47met mind-meld or mindfuck with this guy
0:49:50here and so we sit in the student center
0:49:53and he's he is he's talking to me about
0:49:55Jesus and there's this is simultaneous
0:49:59narrative in my head where I'm asking
0:50:02myself are you vulnerable right now to
0:50:05this like what would happen if you just
0:50:09said if you just abandoned your cynicism
0:50:12and just and just went with Jesus like
0:50:16what would that feel like and and i was
0:50:21i was conscious of being able to
0:50:27make that choice you know like at the
0:50:30end up to that point my history as a as
0:50:34a child of my own parents my history as
0:50:37a kind of inhabiting the identity that i
0:50:41had spent my whole life building at all
0:50:43would have always prevented me from
0:50:44being able to take somebody like that
0:50:47seriously but I was sitting there and
0:50:50you know and of course your app also
0:50:52asking yourself the questions based on
0:50:56their received narrative like is this
0:50:59what it means to have your heart opened
0:51:01is this what it feels like when God
0:51:05touches you and opens your heart because
0:51:09I am feeling as i'm doing as disposed to
0:51:14this philosophy as I am to any
0:51:16philosophy right now and you know I had
0:51:20a very nice couple of hours with this
0:51:24guy where he was really excited about
0:51:27his faith and I was just as it seems
0:51:33reasonable to me as anything and and I
0:51:43and i spent probably six months after
0:51:45that walking around going still feeling
0:51:50like Christianity was a cult but
0:51:53wondering whether or not I was like a
0:51:55cult maybe a potential cult member like
0:51:58maybe maybe this is what I should do
0:52:01maybe this is God speaking to me what
0:52:03was it well if you say what was it about
0:52:04that particular exchange or your state
0:52:07of mind or whatever
0:52:09indeed and it wasn't just a simple as
0:52:11like he hacked in with the magic phrase
0:52:12there was what was it about the
0:52:14particular time that made that resonate
0:52:15with you i think it was that I i was
0:52:22very starved for meaning and and had
0:52:29been for years and and had sought
0:52:33meaning everywhere i went and had found
0:52:37none like the philosophies of all the
0:52:47people i admired and none of them none
0:52:53of them were revealed to be really
0:52:56philosophies at all they were just they
0:52:59were faking until they made it or their
0:53:01philosophy was to general there wasn't
0:53:05there did not appear to be any meaning
0:53:07and and I think the idea when i was a
0:53:12teen and in my early twenties was that
0:53:14there was meaning and it was
0:53:16discoverable and it was just hidden from
0:53:18us because we couldn't handle it or we
0:53:21weren't smart enough to detect it and
0:53:26that you know at a certain point it was
0:53:28like there doesn't appear to be any
0:53:30meaning it isn't a question of there
0:53:33being a plan that we aren't
0:53:36that we don't see it's a it is really
0:53:40just that every one of us is doing their
0:53:42own thing and and it only looks like a
0:53:46plan later and I didn't want that I
0:53:50really didn't I wanted there to be a
0:53:52secret and I wanted to be both smart
0:53:58enough and also creative enough or smart
0:54:01enough and also sensitive enough to be
0:54:04the person that discovered it or was
0:54:07capable of hearing it and and knowing it
0:54:09and so at that at that moment and for a
0:54:15while after that I was just like I was
0:54:19open to people that open to people
0:54:24proselytizing what I had already
0:54:26rejected i gave it a new hearing and
0:54:32that was the last that was the last time
0:54:35I considered that there was really a
0:54:38plan and when I went when I came out the
0:54:45other side of that and I mean I would
0:54:47have felt very vulnerable i felt like it
0:54:49if one more person had come up to me and
0:54:51put their arms around my shoulder and
0:54:53said and had seemed smart and funny and
0:54:57gentle that I would have said you know I
0:55:01like the other option for me tonight is
0:55:04sleeping in a boxcar so right yeah i'll
0:55:08come have outcome have a re-creation of
0:55:11dinner with you but on the other side of
0:55:15that I never I never again really
0:55:17believe that there was that that that
0:55:21there was any kind of orchestration to
0:55:25life
0:55:27um it edit and and I don't think I was
0:55:31ever vulnerable again to being
0:55:35brought into a fold or or accepting a
0:55:41doctrine I guess yeah yeah you seem
0:55:47disinclined to give yourself over to
0:55:52most things in general but especially
0:55:54two things where you are so i can't
0:55:58speak for you to speak for yourself but
0:55:59it seems like you're disinclined to go
0:56:00into things we expected to check out
0:56:02it'll actually stop asking questions and
0:56:04be a good German well that's something
0:56:05even if I had done I don't know how I
0:56:08would I don't know at the end of that
0:56:09three-day weekend where I would have
0:56:11been I don't think I don't think there's
0:56:12ever there there's no narrative I i
0:56:15might be SuperDuper 10 times more
0:56:17disappointed i mean you might have you
0:56:20might have been enraged because you
0:56:22might have realized something that was
0:56:23basically fundamentally hypocritical or
0:56:26something about it that you needed to
0:56:29get a little bit closer to the center to
0:56:30to be able to see it
0:56:32well that's what happened to me with
0:56:33working in nonprofits you know I went
0:56:36back east on that same trip and ended up
0:56:40getting a job working at the National
0:56:43Environmental Law Center which was a
0:56:46ralph nader organization kind of
0:56:49connected to the public interest
0:56:51research group and I spent four months
0:56:55really really really engaged in the in
0:56:59the idea that you could that there were
0:57:03liberal organizations that that were
0:57:09paying for lobbyists and that lobbying
0:57:12the government for liberal causes was
0:57:15God's work you know that that was yes a
0:57:19way to throw yourself upon the gears in
0:57:21some ways right
0:57:22I mean you really put your money where
0:57:23your mouth is he to get out there and
0:57:25actually do that and before step for
0:57:27people who don't agree with you that's a
0:57:29big stones it was and it was it and and
0:57:32I was successful at it and and i was
0:57:34promoted within the organization and I
0:57:37got up to the point where
0:57:39I I realized a that the people who were
0:57:44really running this organization were
0:57:47all young lawyers from ivy league
0:57:49schools and I was 21 and they were all
0:57:54probably 27 but they were you know yay
0:57:59Lee's and they believed they knew what
0:58:05was right and they believed they knew
0:58:06what what they had to do and they were
0:58:12working within the system and I felt a
0:58:15certain amount of class resentment
0:58:16because there was a although we although
0:58:21they were older than I was
0:58:22they weren't that much older than I was
0:58:24once you can afford to work at those
0:58:25places are often to use it and unkind
0:58:28phrase trustafarians yeah the people who
0:58:30can afford to make you know
0:58:32twelve-thousand dollars a year working
0:58:3460 hours a week are not people with
0:58:37college loans to pay ya right there with
0:58:39it with a year law degree but they were
0:58:41yeah exactly they were they were smart
0:58:43they were beautiful they were rich and
0:58:46they were politically on the right side
0:58:49and they were devoted to the cause like
0:58:52all of that is very very appealing from
0:58:56a distance you know I imagine that that
0:58:58is what like Roman and hanging out with
0:59:03ronan farrow looks like all it takes all
0:59:08the boxes and the fact that they were
0:59:11born on third and thought they had a
0:59:13triple that they're also liberal enough
0:59:16to know that analogy and to use it
0:59:19against themselves but still that but
0:59:22they still believe that they had a
0:59:23triple but but sitting there within that
0:59:26organization and and and i was in a
0:59:29position where I started asking
0:59:31I up where I was conscious of the money
0:59:34we were raising and I started asking
0:59:36where the money went and I wasn't in a I
0:59:41wasn't a real position to see like nuts
0:59:45and bolts where the money went
0:59:47but we were raising a lot of money
0:59:50and we were raising it because we we
0:59:53were raising it by saying to people buy
0:59:54into sending this army of Canvassers out
0:59:57saying to be knocking on people's doors
0:59:58and saying
0:59:58and saying
1:00:00the Clean Air Act is under assault we
1:00:03need your help
1:00:04and here's where your money is going to
1:00:05go it's going to help to to pass this
1:00:08legislation to support the Clean Air Act
1:00:10to support the Clean Water Act we're
1:00:13raising a ton of money and then what
1:00:17that meant was what that money all got
1:00:19put into a undifferentiated pot there
1:00:23was no like the money that this person
1:00:25raised about the Clean Water Act and the
1:00:27money that this person raised about the
1:00:29Voting Rights Act or whatever it all
1:00:30went into the same pot there was no it
1:00:33was not targeted money and then from
1:00:37that pot what they did was pay lawyers
1:00:40and lobbyists and lawyers and lobbyists
1:00:45took congressman out to dinner and
1:00:50lobbied them and the the disconnect
1:00:59between the righteousness of those kids
1:01:02on the street who were going
1:01:04door-to-door and like you've gotta help
1:01:06please Mr and Mrs America right a
1:01:09fifty-dollar check we need your help and
1:01:13then the ragamuffins who are working for
1:01:14faking and then you then you trace that
1:01:19fifty-dollar check-in and it just ends
1:01:21up it's just steaks and cigars and there
1:01:26was and and within that organization
1:01:27there was a real like the response to me
1:01:33was listen do your job you don't need to
1:01:36know where them you don't need to know
1:01:37about this stuff that's not exactly a
1:01:40cult
1:01:41it felt like a cold i mean that's that's
1:01:42such a different defining characteristic
1:01:44of a cult is it there are you taking
1:01:46people for what they believe is going to
1:01:48be a good life affirming life-changing
1:01:51positive for them change he soon them
1:01:53into the group you you work them really
1:01:58really hard too late they're too
1:01:59exhausted to ask questions
1:02:01I don't know and the thing is i
1:02:02supported everything that that for that
1:02:05organization did I admired everybody
1:02:07involved but again I felt like the
1:02:11moment I recognized myself as a
1:02:13log and the moment that I recognize my
1:02:16own idealism and enthusiasm for this as
1:02:19just a thing they were utilizing to
1:02:23accomplish their goals which was not
1:02:27which I wasn't really privy to your not
1:02:29even want to know the real calls not
1:02:31even allowed to know
1:02:32not even you know never going to be
1:02:33invited into that room right and these
1:02:36guys are not even the ones these guys
1:02:38don't really even have access to the
1:02:40room the real room I just felt like oh
1:02:44well this isn't for me either and you
1:02:50know that a battle and I and I think
1:02:57reflecting back what I what I recognize
1:02:59is that I wasn't ever meant to be a
1:03:02member in that way and what I really
1:03:05missed was a mentor at some point early
1:03:10on saying don't look for what you're
1:03:12looking for in these things kid like
1:03:15you're not going to find it in punk rock
1:03:18or in the ralph nader's organization or
1:03:23in a corporate environment like there
1:03:24are some people who who don't belong and
1:03:30I guess as I say it out loud I'm
1:03:32realizing there isn't a mentor like that
1:03:34the people who don't belong discovered
1:03:37that and discover that path on their own
1:03:40and that it is that it sucks
1:03:43there's not many institutions that have
1:03:45half a dozen people like that in them
1:03:46right and it and it's only luck if i
1:03:52would have I was on a i was on a boat
1:03:54one time crossing from Morocco to italy
1:04:00and i was considering i was i was at a
1:04:05point in my life where I was considering
1:04:07giving it all away like abandoning my
1:04:14life and my history and moving
1:04:19transitioning into a new existence of
1:04:22like
1:04:24constant like actually following my own
1:04:29footsteps and in a way like like I was
1:04:33gonna walk i was gonna walk off this
1:04:35boat
1:04:36this is a long time before I walked
1:04:37across Europe but I was gonna walk off
1:04:39this boat and I was gonna walk into a
1:04:40new life where I did not have a past and
1:04:43I was not going back to America if I
1:04:46went to America again it was going to be
1:04:48that I went to America not back to
1:04:51America and I was going to become a
1:04:53citizen of the world or something I was
1:04:55sitting on the boat and I was really
1:04:56thinking about what it would what it
1:04:59would take to cut all those ties and I
1:05:03and I'm not constitutionally a tie
1:05:06cutter you know I I loved my family I
1:05:10would you stayed in touch with your
1:05:12family a hell of a lot more than must
1:05:13apply now to be last and and in a way
1:05:16like i am one of my characteristics is
1:05:20nostalgia I am defy I carry nostalgia
1:05:24Anna and a warm feeling for nostalgia
1:05:27around with me and it ended it and it's
1:05:30one of the things that keeps me from
1:05:31being truly a radical is that i nurture
1:05:35nostalgia in myself but I'm on this boat
1:05:40and i'm thinking i'm going to just I'm
1:05:41just gonna like do it i'm just gonna
1:05:45burn up I'm gonna burn my old life and
1:05:50I'm gonna walk off this boat on my walk
1:05:52into a new life and there was a guy on
1:05:55the boat who sat down you know who like
1:06:00sami from across the dining room and
1:06:03came over and sat down at my table and
1:06:06he looked like mike mills looks now
1:06:09she was an older guy great long gray
1:06:13hair and it was one of those weird
1:06:16encounters where a guy did sit down
1:06:19across the table and say what's going on
1:06:20with you man and I was like well I'm
1:06:25thinking about not going back and he was
1:06:30like I thought so i saw i saw that in
1:06:35your face and I was like what man like
1:06:39it really weird encounter and wait for
1:06:42the length of this ferry trip he SAT
1:06:44there and he was like do it
1:06:47don't go back do it you know you should
1:06:53and you'll never he can't know what the
1:06:57future holds but it's going to be
1:07:00amazing and you just need to do it and
1:07:04you know I'm am sitting there like are
1:07:09you wizard but but feeling so empowered
1:07:16by this guy's attention and I think I
1:07:21said some you know some version of like
1:07:23will you be my god can I come with you
1:07:26and he was like no no no that's not how
1:07:31it works you you go like I'm I'm on I'm
1:07:38on my own thing you you have to go and
1:07:41do your thing and I was like and I
1:07:44wanted to go with him I wanted to spend
1:07:46like a month at least please just take
1:07:48me home with you for a month and tell me
1:07:50more
1:07:51and you know the boat docked and I
1:07:54walked off the boat and I was like I'm
1:07:55done I'm not going back I'm not going
1:07:57back to America I'm not going back to
1:08:00I'm not going in Reverse but it but I
1:08:06didn't have a clear picture of what that
1:08:08meant i did it didn't take you know what
1:08:10I mean like it was a it was a
1:08:13hallucination and when when winter came
1:08:17and I got cold and I got hungry you know
1:08:25for five months after that i bought a
1:08:31ticket back to America food and water
1:08:35take it back to America like please take
1:08:38me back America um and that was a you
1:08:44know that was a moment that what that
1:08:46was a crossroads that I that I i went i
1:08:52took the road less traveled by and I
1:08:53went about a mile and a half up what up
1:08:55it and then I turn around I ran back to
1:08:57the crossroads and took the took the
1:09:00road more traveled by and that has made
1:09:03all the difference also allow I like
1:09:11have some follow-up I'm fine to stop
1:09:14right there that was great
1:09:15oh no I want I want to follow up
1:09:19everything is profound is that better I
1:09:23think I you see what frustrates me and
1:09:24it took me a long time to realize this
1:09:26I could have I could have called out
1:09:29some of the bullet points of what
1:09:31bothers me about people who proselytize
1:09:33are people who are evangelicals but if I
1:09:36had to summarize it in perhaps a
1:09:38slightly glib way it's that when you go
1:09:41to somebody you proselytize a point of
1:09:43view you seek them out you find a
1:09:44stranger and start talking to them about
1:09:46something arm on the one hand
1:09:51yeah obviously it matters what it is
1:09:52that you're talking about but you know
1:09:54there aren't that many people who
1:09:56haven't heard of Jesus right to live at
1:09:58least process i love it is on level
1:10:00right
1:10:01they've thought about not drinking today
1:10:02whatever it is but with good bad
1:10:04indifferent whatever it is as I said
1:10:06here today I think the thing that bugs
1:10:07me about the most is that the biggest
1:10:09takeaway is from someone who
1:10:12proselytizes if they're not really
1:10:14really awfully good at it and offer he
1:10:16made about it and the thing that makes
1:10:19it feel a little guilty I'll really
1:10:21across the board is that the impression
1:10:23you are left with is that if I join up i
1:10:26will become mostly an ineffective
1:10:28salesman for whatever this thing is
1:10:30because that's what this person is right
1:10:32person is really doing is its sales and
1:10:35they're not they're doing like entry
1:10:36level sales or something like that if
1:10:38you have any real questions are like
1:10:39let's go talk to my let's go talk to my
1:10:41manager
1:10:42yeah yeah and whether that's in an
1:10:43institution or whatever wherever you
1:10:46decide to hang your hat beware of any
1:10:47place that where you're not allowed to
1:10:49ask good questions and but thatthat's
1:10:51thatthat's i think in the end i say that
1:10:53because like i don't think i would have
1:10:55put it that way I wouldn't at all man
1:10:57you don't tell me what to do would be
1:10:58more white my way of looking at up and
1:11:00out today just in terms of the
1:11:01impression in that case you got this guy
1:11:03who came up to on a boat and was kind of
1:11:06not the opposite of that but you know
1:11:08unless he was doing some extremely
1:11:09advanced reverse psychology
1:11:11it's pretty different from hey have you
1:11:13heard about gravity can we talk about
1:11:15gravity or you know have you thought
1:11:17about cleaning your ears you know you
1:11:19know how many people die each year from
1:11:20that clean their ears
1:11:21there's a simple solution you got
1:11:22someplace better to be I didn't think so
1:11:24it's like you know they're not they're
1:11:26not at the skullenbones club trying to
1:11:28recruit people for this there at the
1:11:30station there at the commons there there
1:11:32at all the places
1:11:33where people are vulnerable and and
1:11:35looking for answers that essentially
1:11:36knowing it and and but the problem is
1:11:38it's part of it is a journalist in a
1:11:40branding problem i don't know part of it
1:11:41is that what you come across you come
1:11:43across as a desperate salesman and
1:11:46that's not what anybody wants to be
1:11:48yeah nobody wants to be a Salesman
1:11:51nobody wakes up going i want to be a
1:11:53Salesman or manager going to be Cowboys
1:11:55and astronauts and I account person
1:11:59destro bring individuals and I'm gonna
1:12:04start pretty cool it's a pretty good
1:12:05take on it but to this day you know
1:12:08that's why man I like i'm not i have not
1:12:11that it matters but i have a panhandler
1:12:13that i sponsor in my mind my program is
1:12:15I i pick a panhandler every time at a
1:12:18given time and if the person disappears
1:12:19for whatever reason i picked somebody
1:12:20else but i will be always you one person
1:12:23when IC make him five bucks that's my
1:12:24entire approach I don't give anybody
1:12:26else anybody out Girl Scouts money i
1:12:27don't like begging i don't like going
1:12:29places and having people stop me and my
1:12:31daughter walking down the street to ask
1:12:33me something to tell me something to I
1:12:35don't want to i don't i don't think i
1:12:37don't want to participate in that they
1:12:38don't need to be just need a fan belt to
1:12:41get their car we have a job interview my
1:12:43sons in the car
1:12:44yeah I so I mean I hope that doesn't
1:12:46sound dad well you know what fuckin
1:12:48medal don't care about that at all times
1:12:50exactly that's exactly right and the
1:12:51thing about you know what what what I
1:12:53have reflected back on that Mike Mills
1:12:55guy on the boat if my senses my senses
1:12:59that he was like me he did recognize me
1:13:03because everyone so I'll see somebody
1:13:05out in the world and i will recognize
1:13:07them as like me it's michael's a time
1:13:09traveler it-it-it Mike there was
1:13:13actually a real mike mills at the time
1:13:14so if this was future Mike Mills coming
1:13:17back he would have been like most
1:13:18extreme he would have been risking a lot
1:13:21yeah tell the space-time continuum but
1:13:23the pretty captain I care about that and
1:13:27if there was a guy that's gonna fit that
1:13:30bill but uh but I feel like what this
1:13:34guy what what was in fact happening
1:13:37there was that this guy recognized me as
1:13:39him and now he was trying to give me the
1:13:41advice he wish somebody had given him
1:13:44she hadn't you know he was no more
1:13:46off-the-grid than I was he was on the
1:13:48same fucking ferryboat from X to Y but
1:13:53he was trying to he was trying to make a
1:13:58difference in somebody's life and and I
1:14:01think about that a lot
1:14:02now when I see people and I try not to
1:14:06give people advice that i wish i had
1:14:09taken you know I tried to I try to eat
1:14:13I'm it wrong you really fuck it up
1:14:15you really do and anything away like you
1:14:18don't know what was going to happen
1:14:21because you didn't do it either like
1:14:23you're you are try it's a kind of as a
1:14:25way of trying to live vicariously and he
1:14:28he walked away from that encounter he
1:14:29was like I fucking made a difference
1:14:31today and I set that kid loose on the
1:14:33world right is it was a self-involved
1:14:36I'll speak for myself too self-involved
1:14:37version of pseudo time travel where you
1:14:39wish you could have that conversation
1:14:40with yourself when you could have used
1:14:42it at the right time the right person
1:14:44the right words to write everything all
1:14:45the stars align and something happens
1:14:47and you avoid wasting five years of your
1:14:49life but it's impossible you can't do
1:14:50that for you
1:14:51you can't do that for them right and and
1:14:54and the fact is nobody knows what would
1:14:57have happened if I had if that guy had
1:15:00when he was 22 just gone off the grid
1:15:04and weeks when we don't know what
1:15:06would've happened if I had because
1:15:08neither one of us did and it might have
1:15:10been it might not be great i mean i
1:15:15dunno guys who have gone off the grid
1:15:17and it isn't great for for them or for
1:15:21the world so those protos profound
1:15:27moments you know what what what that did
1:15:32was it gave me 15 years of another thing
1:15:35that i felt like i had failed you know
1:15:37like that guy get that guy gave me
1:15:40everything I needed and I should have
1:15:42just walked off that boat and into a new
1:15:44life and I chickened out for months
1:15:47later I chickened out and I'm
1:15:49oh really really you really feel that
1:15:51way well no i don't now but I did give
1:15:55yourself a white ribbon for that one
1:15:56I did I did give myself a white ribbon
1:15:58and and you know that because I was
1:16:01always that was that era where I felt
1:16:04like if you are using money if you are
1:16:07using human money you are a sellout if
1:16:12you if you need to buy your food at a
1:16:14store you are not truly alive and the
1:16:21only way you can think that way is if
1:16:22you are if you do not understand
1:16:24anything you know but i didn't
1:16:27understand anything and I did believe
1:16:30that that transact that I would that
1:16:35somehow transactions where thing I
1:16:38couldn't participate in that I had to I
1:16:43had to find a new currency and my
1:16:47currency was going to be song but you
1:16:50selling an angry Buddhist monk where
1:16:53that is that the concert kind of long
1:16:55not that inaccurate kinda monk we got
1:16:58your bowl and you have to go and beg for
1:17:01your food each day but you're not
1:17:02allowed to like squirrel anything away
1:17:03yet to start fresh every day right
1:17:06empty bowl every morning except I was
1:17:07angry defeating the entire purpose of
1:17:10exercise that's wrong 7000 reg is a
1:17:14purposeless exercise so realizing that's
1:17:17wrong 18a hope somebody's writing down
1:17:21all these rungs we really we've got a
1:17:24lot of runs hand comment caught
1:17:25retroactive continuity we might need to
1:17:27go back and adjust some of the numbering
1:17:29a little bit but there are five or six
1:17:32seven LRH did this with all the OT
1:17:35levels
1:17:35yes you do for a long time being he
1:17:37can't believe there was a time when they
1:17:38thought ot3 was as high as you can go
1:17:40I cannot have both events and then then
1:17:43all the sudden he's got OT levels like
1:17:45like like crazy go nuts
1:17:47well are they are the subsets of OT 30
1:17:50or 10 23 for all I think I'm sorry
1:17:53subset a oh no I think I think I'm Cruz
1:17:56might be a seven
1:17:58yeah i think five weeks i'm trying to
1:18:01remember excited
1:18:03that book last year or so but i think
1:18:05four threes when shit gets real
1:18:08yeah i think i think for it maybe
1:18:10there's the one with the dark night of
1:18:11the soul one is the one where they like
1:18:13you realize how horrible everything is
1:18:15and then you get into the Xenu after
1:18:17that but Ron's runs are friendly
1:18:23everybody loves a ladder i like to climb
1:18:25yeah i like to climb the thing about me
1:18:27as i'm still climbing
1:18:28I'm still standing after all these years
1:18:34the connectors bother you can actually
1:18:37get