Roderick on the Line

Ep. 102: "The Birkenstock Point"


00:00:00   hello hi jata hai Berlin how's it going [TS]

00:00:11   good good super good except that I [TS]

00:00:18   thought I had more coffee than I have no [TS]

00:00:21   you know the raw materials that the [TS]

00:00:24   beans i had you know one of the things [TS]

00:00:28   about having people stay over at your [TS]

00:00:29   house is that you're not anymore in [TS]

00:00:33   charge of any aspect of your stores just [TS]

00:00:37   got you guys just keep relearning that [TS]

00:00:39   over and over [TS]

00:00:40   you know that right it's one of those [TS]

00:00:43   things you know [TS]

00:00:45   yep you know when i had the the game [TS]

00:00:48   changers up here who at some point after [TS]

00:00:52   after the game changers weekend I went [TS]

00:00:55   you know I went into the pantry thinking [TS]

00:00:58   I had X number of certain items mostly [TS]

00:01:04   hobby software keep our cigars yeah [TS]

00:01:07   bacon and it was all gone but it was [TS]

00:01:10   like it was like locusts that come [TS]

00:01:12   through and I felt like Richard Gere out [TS]

00:01:14   i should have just started a fire in my [TS]

00:01:18   house and burden like Elizabeth Taylor [TS]

00:01:20   you open your closet expect to see all [TS]

00:01:22   those beautiful gowns and Underpants [TS]

00:01:24   it's just just ma's laughing at you but [TS]

00:01:27   the monster gone so yeah so I flew a [TS]

00:01:31   little bit close to the Sun letting [TS]

00:01:33   other people in my kitchen and now I [TS]

00:01:35   went downstairs I was like time for a [TS]

00:01:36   pot of coffee and what I found instead [TS]

00:01:39   was a refrigerator full of ice cream [TS]

00:01:44   well first of all freezer full of ice [TS]

00:01:47   cream a refrigerator full of ice cream [TS]

00:01:49   would have been a disaster but you know [TS]

00:01:51   my am I i went to a birthday party and [TS]

00:01:54   then somebody got somebody got the idea [TS]

00:01:58   that the leftovers we're going to go [TS]

00:01:59   with me but only certain leftovers and [TS]

00:02:02   what that ended up being was like four [TS]

00:02:05   gallons of ice cream is a good ice cream [TS]

00:02:07   yeah it's fine like kid ice cream and no [TS]

00:02:10   no it's not ice milk it's ice cream [TS]

00:02:13   no care of it this way you know what [TS]

00:02:17   they say God never closes a door without [TS]

00:02:19   opening some ice cream [TS]

00:02:21   I i love God God is you know I this is [TS]

00:02:26   probably just from my background in my [TS]

00:02:28   fear of probation but like I don't like [TS]

00:02:30   running out of things [TS]

00:02:31   mm no I think I think my lady and I we [TS]

00:02:34   don't disagree on this is just that it [TS]

00:02:36   means a lot to me to make sure that [TS]

00:02:38   there's another guy's got one in the [TS]

00:02:39   chamber right well you're a guy who [TS]

00:02:41   drinks 20 cams of carbonated water a day [TS]

00:02:45   have you cut back well the problem is [TS]

00:02:49   you know i've been using the the [TS]

00:02:51   SodaStream thing when you buy a big tank [TS]

00:02:53   know you and I've been out of that for a [TS]

00:02:55   while and i've been really lazy because [TS]

00:02:57   you've got to take in your empties each [TS]

00:02:59   one of those things wait a few pounds [TS]

00:03:00   you have to get in and train them in so [TS]

00:03:02   I falling back into my old ways and i [TS]

00:03:05   begin 12-packs of cans and my wife does [TS]

00:03:08   not like the cans [TS]

00:03:10   yeah because I drink seriously I do [TS]

00:03:12   drink / 12 pack of those a day [TS]

00:03:14   yeah well I'm the thing about the cans I [TS]

00:03:17   mean I haven't been to your house in [TS]

00:03:19   awhile but why remember the can era the [TS]

00:03:23   thing about those Kansas that there's [TS]

00:03:24   you know which end up with this like six [TS]

00:03:26   or seven cans with some carbonated water [TS]

00:03:29   in them kind of lying around [TS]

00:03:31   that's me there's like half a carat [TS]

00:03:33   carbonated water here half a can of [TS]

00:03:35   carbonated water there and loses its [TS]

00:03:37   carbonation pretty fast and that's just [TS]

00:03:40   pop cans full of water [TS]

00:03:42   yeah i yeah okay sure what i do is what [TS]

00:03:46   happens with me is I usually slam like i [TS]

00:03:48   usually out down down a 12 count can [TS]

00:03:50   pretty quick and i started another one [TS]

00:03:52   and that's the 1i forget is the second [TS]

00:03:54   or third one and this yeah they did they [TS]

00:03:56   accumulate and you can pretty much you [TS]

00:03:58   know there's that sense of like you're [TS]

00:03:59   going to walk into a room and you're [TS]

00:04:00   like I just know there's going to be in [TS]

00:04:01   this case like a can of seltzer and then [TS]

00:04:04   there is one by the bed on my daughter's [TS]

00:04:06   bed is a couple by the couch [TS]

00:04:09   that's how you know you have a problem [TS]

00:04:11   when you're when you you're leaving your [TS]

00:04:13   hands around your daughter's bed she [TS]

00:04:16   thinks she's better than me that's not [TS]

00:04:18   better than me [TS]

00:04:19   I mean I understand slamming a can of [TS]

00:04:22   seltzer water if you're just about to [TS]

00:04:23   get into a burp fight with somebody [TS]

00:04:25   who but I don't like slam and one it [TS]

00:04:29   seems like the opposite of what seltzer [TS]

00:04:31   is good at I feel so good [TS]

00:04:33   burns it burns like drinking beer you [TS]

00:04:36   know I think I started drinking Seltzer [TS]

00:04:39   more around the time I stopped drinking [TS]

00:04:41   beer [TS]

00:04:42   I used to drink a lot of beer and i [TS]

00:04:45   think i like the it's kind of like my [TS]

00:04:48   ethernet cigarette I guess I i like i [TS]

00:04:51   like these things a lot in there are [TS]

00:04:52   there was a refresh me anytime I get up [TS]

00:04:54   something to get Miller night to urinate [TS]

00:04:55   as you do and I'll just go boom have [TS]

00:04:57   seltzer [TS]

00:04:58   yeah right and it's not it's no calories [TS]

00:05:00   no fuss no muss you don't owe anybody [TS]

00:05:02   anything but then I then I crushed and [TS]

00:05:04   throw it against the wall and wake [TS]

00:05:05   everybody up [TS]

00:05:06   fuck you a public you think that's [TS]

00:05:09   outlive him [TS]

00:05:10   yeah yeah I think intelligence by on my [TS]

00:05:12   all-time favorite professors in college [TS]

00:05:14   my was on the committee my poetry [TS]

00:05:16   professor is my sponsor most of the time [TS]

00:05:18   i was there he added he was one of those [TS]

00:05:21   people were like I just don't know how [TS]

00:05:23   he felt his life was really complicated [TS]

00:05:25   you know you don't make even you know as [TS]

00:05:28   a full professor at florida university [TS]

00:05:29   you don't make that that much money [TS]

00:05:32   you're getting paid and seeds and stems [TS]

00:05:35   and he had is a his mom who is you know [TS]

00:05:39   completely like need a total total care [TS]

00:05:42   live with them his his son who is [TS]

00:05:45   developmentally disabled live with him [TS]

00:05:47   some of the time he taught at other [TS]

00:05:49   places at the same time multiple women [TS]

00:05:53   yeah this is a guy you know what the [TS]

00:05:55   Princeton was one of the first [TS]

00:05:56   professors at school is a great guy like [TS]

00:05:58   anybody wants a new college remember Mac [TS]

00:06:00   Miller he was just the best but you can [TS]

00:06:01   tell stress Macklemore Macklemore Miller [TS]

00:06:04   that's right with ryan lewis and what he [TS]

00:06:06   would do is though he's always smoking [TS]

00:06:07   two things about Max's first of all like [TS]

00:06:10   you've never actually seen Mac drink a [TS]

00:06:11   beer [TS]

00:06:12   he would bring it bring out some of the [TS]

00:06:13   braincase your class and and you would [TS]

00:06:17   you don't hear the beer [TS]

00:06:18   those were the days you hear ya haha [TS]

00:06:20   alright dude your hips you look and it [TS]

00:06:25   was like against the doctor who [TS]

00:06:26   references like the the weeping angels [TS]

00:06:27   you can actually see the move [TS]

00:06:29   you don't see anything here was and then [TS]

00:06:31   you look back here and crushing the can [TS]

00:06:34   and something with cigarettes he was and [TS]

00:06:36   he's one of those guys like Matthew [TS]

00:06:37   McConaughey smoker like [TS]

00:06:39   you really each one was like a little [TS]

00:06:40   conjugal visit like he smoke the shit [TS]

00:06:42   out of a cigarette in front of a [TS]

00:06:45   classroom every smoking class is a lot [TS]

00:06:47   of time haha ok I got talking about my [TS]

00:06:50   school and you can make up your own [TS]

00:06:53   classes there and yeah it's kinda like I [TS]

00:06:56   don't know if you ever saw the Grateful [TS]

00:06:58   Dead I was uh yeah okay for you saw them [TS]

00:07:01   saw the shit no I was born to basically [TS]

00:07:05   create I like rock music ah i was [TS]

00:07:09   fortunate to see them live three shots [TS]

00:07:10   sure back when the early nineties you i [TS]

00:07:12   fell in you fell in with the deadheads [TS]

00:07:14   lady lady [TS]

00:07:16   by the early nineties i was already i [TS]

00:07:17   was already transitioned touch of grey [TS]

00:07:19   spoke to you look really good [TS]

00:07:21   well you know what it was it was that I [TS]

00:07:23   couldn't afford birkenstock so they were [TS]

00:07:26   costly they were expensive and all the [TS]

00:07:29   cool kids had him for that for that that [TS]

00:07:31   one summer I think it was the summer of [TS]

00:07:34   88 they think they got big fast [TS]

00:07:37   oh and it was Birkenstocks everywhere [TS]

00:07:39   all the you know it was you know what it [TS]

00:07:40   was Birkenstocks and mountain bikes they [TS]

00:07:42   were both they both became popular that [TS]

00:07:45   that same summer before 1988 levels get [TS]

00:07:48   a whole chapter about that is that right [TS]

00:07:50   huh [TS]

00:07:50   before nine point yeah there was no [TS]

00:07:53   mountain bikes I've never heard of a [TS]

00:07:55   mountain bike if you wanted to ride your [TS]

00:07:57   bike off road [TS]

00:07:58   you got a BMX bike got a big BMX bike if [TS]

00:08:02   you were full-grown person then all of a [TS]

00:08:04   sudden mountain bikes were invented and [TS]

00:08:07   but everybody was wearing Birkenstocks [TS]

00:08:08   and I was like I don't have them [TS]

00:08:10   I campaign ninety dollars for a pair of [TS]

00:08:12   sandals I don't have any money and I [TS]

00:08:15   don't have any money to get a mountain [TS]

00:08:16   bike and i'm getting left behind here [TS]

00:08:18   and I feel like that was also the summer [TS]

00:08:21   that everybody was where everybody was [TS]

00:08:24   wearing raybans not Wayfarers they were [TS]

00:08:27   wearing aviators wear a banner aviators [TS]

00:08:29   and so I'm looking around looking to my [TS]

00:08:31   left there's a guy in ray ban aviators [TS]

00:08:33   with Birkenstocks is riding a mountain [TS]

00:08:35   bike i looked to my right same same [TS]

00:08:37   story and I'm i got nothing so i was [TS]

00:08:41   like i'm gonna start going to seek see [TS]

00:08:43   great that whenever i can just to try [TS]

00:08:46   and just trying to even the playing [TS]

00:08:48   field [TS]

00:08:49   but one of the things about seeing the [TS]

00:08:50   Grateful Dead was Jerry Garcia become [TS]

00:08:54   Jerry Jerry Jerry he called papa with [TS]

00:08:57   that he's got a name [TS]

00:08:58   hi Jerry Jerry care i think jer if [TS]

00:09:02   you're really into it there Jerry would [TS]

00:09:05   like in the middle of a solo butta baby [TS]

00:09:09   food will be provided it means we can [TS]

00:09:11   have that you can have a middle to [TS]

00:09:12   something that's never ended it would he [TS]

00:09:17   would walk he would walk kind of around [TS]

00:09:20   behind his amp let's go to cook and [TS]

00:09:24   Craft services the solo would keep going [TS]

00:09:27   and there would be and then from behind [TS]

00:09:31   the amp that would be a cloud of smoke [TS]

00:09:33   and i don't mean like I don't mean like [TS]

00:09:36   somebody took a puff of a cigarette [TS]

00:09:37   I mean like somebody i mean like the [TS]

00:09:39   cloud of smoke like they release when [TS]

00:09:40   the Pope is chosen like like bows from [TS]

00:09:45   behind the amp like oh holy shit jerky [TS]

00:09:47   it just caught on fire spontaneously [TS]

00:09:49   combusted and then you come up and come [TS]

00:09:51   back out from around the amp the solo [TS]

00:09:53   never stopped and I don't know what all [TS]

00:09:56   went on behind the am but I think about [TS]

00:10:00   it still like I think about a night at [TS]

00:10:03   the time I was like not that's living / [TS]

00:10:05   he goes back there he probably goes into [TS]

00:10:08   one of those john travolta Bubble Boy [TS]

00:10:10   tense over and all the drugs and he just [TS]

00:10:18   he confuses us kid [TS]

00:10:20   he isn't a dream job though i mean the [TS]

00:10:24   the idea that like that is set aside the [TS]

00:10:26   whole plan in a rock band that's that's [TS]

00:10:27   awesome enough to begin with a pseudo [TS]

00:10:28   rock band but just the idea that you [TS]

00:10:30   could still keep doing your job [TS]

00:10:31   disappear for a while into a puff of [TS]

00:10:34   indeterminate smoke and everybody would [TS]

00:10:37   still be just as satisfied with your job [TS]

00:10:38   that dream if you go around behind your [TS]

00:10:40   amp and you and your drug ballot have [TS]

00:10:43   like a bong wrangler I'm sure he did and [TS]

00:10:47   he's still play he's still playing his [TS]

00:10:49   guitar [TS]

00:10:50   www.getcash people are people are [TS]

00:10:54   sticking needles in people [TS]

00:10:56   chin up nose and it's like the indy 500 [TS]

00:10:59   pace car that's right DJ desire they're [TS]

00:11:02   putting a suppository of it even a fresh [TS]

00:11:04   liver and many turns back around never [TS]

00:11:07   even stopped [TS]

00:11:08   oh man it was extraordinary and I anyway [TS]

00:11:12   to finish to finish that line of thought [TS]

00:11:14   I never have only pair of birkenstocks [TS]

00:11:15   even to this day it's a boy it's it's [TS]

00:11:19   super frustrating to me as a as a [TS]

00:11:22   contrarian yeah i really i hate how [TS]

00:11:25   crazy it makes me feel when something [TS]

00:11:27   suddenly becomes more than popular it [TS]

00:11:30   just becomes something that everybody [TS]

00:11:32   gets which is fine it's called fad but [TS]

00:11:35   didn't react like second then we act [TS]

00:11:37   like it's always been this necessary [TS]

00:11:40   right right and and we nobody ever [TS]

00:11:42   acknowledges how bananas it is it [TS]

00:11:44   suddenly it's 1999 we don't know why but [TS]

00:11:47   suddenly everybody needs a Bronco like [TS]

00:11:49   everybody needs an SUV and just suddenly [TS]

00:11:51   became this thing we're like well of [TS]

00:11:53   course you got your back can't afford a [TS]

00:11:55   Hummer so I got a Bronco it's like you [TS]

00:11:57   know what were you doing with that Tyler [TS]

00:11:59   soccer gear will fit into a country [TS]

00:12:01   squire just fine [TS]

00:12:03   yeah but only six that's not the point [TS]

00:12:04   it's just that suddenly everybody's got [TS]

00:12:06   to have that it's like the Calvin peeing [TS]

00:12:07   on something stickers or stickers of [TS]

00:12:09   like how many kids you have in your [TS]

00:12:10   family or whatever it's like it suddenly [TS]

00:12:11   becomes a thing and you gotta do it baby [TS]

00:12:13   on board fully sixty percent of the [TS]

00:12:15   vehicles on the road our SUVs i mean III [TS]

00:12:18   don't know if that's an accurate but it [TS]

00:12:20   sure seems that way to me everywhere you [TS]

00:12:21   look every single car make has an SUV [TS]

00:12:24   and that's a boy Adam for the cowboy hat [TS]

00:12:27   of driving it's really it's really [TS]

00:12:29   infuriating because they're terrible [TS]

00:12:32   cars and they're bad trucks right right [TS]

00:12:35   i mean this I mean and they need they're [TS]

00:12:38   like a lot of those that they've never [TS]

00:12:39   been in fourth gear or they've never [TS]

00:12:41   been in four-wheel drive in their entire [TS]

00:12:43   existence have definitely never been in [TS]

00:12:45   fourth gear in four-wheel drive [TS]

00:12:48   not unless their son took it out not [TS]

00:12:50   unless i was driving yeah but yet but [TS]

00:12:54   even even even as a contrarian and I [TS]

00:12:56   I've called macrame it's a phenomenon [TS]

00:12:58   that I simply call macrame because [TS]

00:13:00   that's me in my lifetime is the [TS]

00:13:02   canonical example of like what what is [TS]

00:13:05   how [TS]

00:13:05   happening why why do we suddenly have [TS]

00:13:08   macrame and why is it suddenly something [TS]

00:13:10   everybody's doing and not acting like [TS]

00:13:12   it's weird that everybody's got jute you [TS]

00:13:14   know what weird [TS]

00:13:15   listen us macrame has a special place in [TS]

00:13:18   my heart [TS]

00:13:19   are we going out again we go back to the [TS]

00:13:21   old topic home crafts and it is their [TS]

00:13:25   place in artistic pantheon without [TS]

00:13:27   macrame how would you suspend your [TS]

00:13:30   terrarium yeah right [TS]

00:13:33   how would you how would you have a [TS]

00:13:35   terrarium in a in a giant glass globe [TS]

00:13:37   hanging in your living see that use case [TS]

00:13:39   you gotta eat yours is a terrarium owner [TS]

00:13:42   if you need a hanging solution you do [TS]

00:13:44   and macramé is it [TS]

00:13:46   I don't think that's how most people do [TS]

00:13:47   it well my last name is my family make [TS]

00:13:51   my person my paternal grandmother was [TS]

00:13:53   for her whole life a crafty person like [TS]

00:13:56   she had been an area of the with what [TS]

00:13:59   they called the utility room where she [TS]

00:14:00   would make christmas ornaments she would [TS]

00:14:02   make decoupage like every single one of [TS]

00:14:04   those things that you've seen people [TS]

00:14:05   make in the last 50 years she did it she [TS]

00:14:07   was good at it [TS]

00:14:08   scrapbooking well that's just that [TS]

00:14:11   that's hoarding with a trip to Michael [TS]

00:14:12   and basically haha but yeah right your [TS]

00:14:15   majesty i don't i wasn't a hoarder i [TS]

00:14:17   still have stuff around here either or [TS]

00:14:19   sorry no offense I you know what my old [TS]

00:14:24   houses a scrapbook my mom what [TS]

00:14:28   everyone's well we'll will divest [TS]

00:14:30   yourself of another box that she feels [TS]

00:14:32   is like keeping her from being able to [TS]

00:14:34   fly [TS]

00:14:35   she's like I don't want this anymore and [TS]

00:14:36   she hands me a box and all open and it [TS]

00:14:38   seemed every once in awhile it will [TS]

00:14:39   contain some like item of incredible [TS]

00:14:44   lace or you know a super super like [TS]

00:14:49   detailed handwork needlework that you [TS]

00:14:52   would never ever you would be able to [TS]

00:14:55   buy any price and she's like you know my [TS]

00:14:56   grandmother made that my great [TS]

00:14:58   grandmother made that and you're just [TS]

00:15:00   imagining that the skill involved in the [TS]

00:15:05   patriarchy training the women to be that [TS]

00:15:10   involved in such a useless task so that [TS]

00:15:12   they don't have a political power [TS]

00:15:16   extraordinary but you got to keep their [TS]

00:15:17   hands busy you do you have otherwise [TS]

00:15:19   they're going to call meetings and stuff [TS]

00:15:20   have to keep them thinking about [TS]

00:15:23   something you think about lace what you [TS]

00:15:25   think about think about lace and you [TS]

00:15:26   talk to each other about lace let's talk [TS]

00:15:28   more oily and meanwhile meanwhile we're [TS]

00:15:31   buying your father's farm who is [TS]

00:15:36   terrible turns around and got the early [TS]

00:15:38   mustache too late [TS]

00:15:40   yeah I always think about that late [TS]

00:15:43   eighties time because if you recall this [TS]

00:15:46   is a very difficult thing to explain to [TS]

00:15:48   young people but there was a little of [TS]

00:15:51   everything is explained to them haha [TS]

00:15:54   tell me about those African necklaces [TS]

00:15:56   that tell a soul war but that moment in [TS]

00:16:00   1988 where the nostalgia for 1968 [TS]

00:16:04   reached its Apogee and we basically the [TS]

00:16:10   summer of 88 we relived the summer of 68 [TS]

00:16:13   except dumber lamer sugar in every [TS]

00:16:18   respect [TS]

00:16:20   I don't know if I don't know where you [TS]

00:16:21   were on the I was pretty happy [TS]

00:16:24   yeah right and and and even realize I [TS]

00:16:28   was always a fake Marxist fake hippie [TS]

00:16:31   fake punk rock but I was a happy guy but [TS]

00:16:34   i mean i was i was heavily invested in [TS]

00:16:35   what you can very loosely call [TS]

00:16:38   alternative culture right and thats [TS]

00:16:41   interesting culture had coalesced yet [TS]

00:16:43   but also that at my school have to [TS]

00:16:44   interview my school in their scientists [TS]

00:16:46   of hippies they're like it with the the [TS]

00:16:48   real remember that you may not remember [TS]

00:16:50   the harmonic convergence was coming and [TS]

00:16:52   it was like science for hippies like [TS]

00:16:54   there was gonna be some big shit going [TS]

00:16:56   down this is going to the native [TS]

00:16:56   whatever the age after Aquarius is the [TS]

00:16:58   age of libra I don't know what it was [TS]

00:16:59   but something something serious was [TS]

00:17:01   going to be going down night 1990 is [TS]

00:17:04   going to make 19 670 look like no was it [TS]

00:17:08   was a dennis hopper quote from the movie [TS]

00:17:10   1969 no no it wasn't it was a dennis [TS]

00:17:14   hopper quote from another movie that he [TS]

00:17:16   started with Kiefer Sutherland hd8 know [TS]

00:17:20   it will but it wasn't a retro movie it [TS]

00:17:22   was a it was a contemporary movie where [TS]

00:17:23   he wear his quote was his big cock was [TS]

00:17:26   I wasn't 1989 is going to make 1969 look [TS]

00:17:31   like 1979 or something like that 1989 is [TS]

00:17:37   gonna make check the source 1990 is [TS]

00:17:40   going to make 1970 look like 1980 no.19 [TS]

00:17:44   that the 1990s is gonna make 1969 look [TS]

00:17:51   like 1950s something like that it was a [TS]

00:17:54   real put down i'll just have to take [TS]

00:17:56   that whole-ass a t-test yeah you got a [TS]

00:18:00   shopper SI t you just got to the [TS]

00:18:01   coloring portion of the the point being [TS]

00:18:06   that that that there was there was [TS]

00:18:08   really and and i remember seeing that [TS]

00:18:09   movie that was the that was that that [TS]

00:18:13   may be the one year where I went to see [TS]

00:18:16   every movie and that 1969 with the with [TS]

00:18:21   the 110 rider and the and the junkie [TS]

00:18:25   that plays the superhero now [TS]

00:18:28   Oh Robert Downey jr. Robert Downey jr. [TS]

00:18:31   you know like I teared up in that movie [TS]

00:18:35   I teared up as crosby Stills and Nash [TS]

00:18:39   use wooden ships played and that and [TS]

00:18:42   they got in their vote beat the two main [TS]

00:18:44   characters got in the Box wagon bus and [TS]

00:18:45   headed out across America like that I [TS]

00:18:50   was like and I was being spoon-fed [TS]

00:18:52   sixties nostalgia and and and and I was [TS]

00:19:00   allowing it to be my own use [TS]

00:19:03   like I was [TS]

00:19:05   I was 20 and i was looking at this movie [TS]

00:19:08   about 20 year olds from 20 years before [TS]

00:19:11   and liked and weeping that I didn't have [TS]

00:19:14   a Vietnam you know to be mad about fucks [TS]

00:19:17   my vietnam vietnam and the and you know [TS]

00:19:22   and that lasted I mean that lasted [TS]

00:19:24   honestly until a grunge I'm sad to say [TS]

00:19:28   but like that sense of that sense of the [TS]

00:19:34   sixties being this being this shadow on [TS]

00:19:39   our youth that our generation just was [TS]

00:19:44   like laboring under this nineteen [TS]

00:19:46   sixties cloud and yeah I was a hippie [TS]

00:19:53   and what the fuck was I looking for i [TS]

00:19:55   was looking for is partly I think it's [TS]

00:19:58   because the sixties generation never [TS]

00:20:00   produced anything after the sixties you [TS]

00:20:05   know they were stuck in our inner in a [TS]

00:20:07   complete retro nostalgia trip about [TS]

00:20:09   themselves and there were so many of a [TS]

00:20:11   moose they were so powerful that they [TS]

00:20:14   just like that's weird it's almost like [TS]

00:20:16   the sixties ended in 1968 but kind of [TS]

00:20:19   didn't really end until nineteen eighty [TS]

00:20:21   i well I'm gonna go watch boogie nights [TS]

00:20:24   or something like that and like it [TS]

00:20:26   really it really is like people really [TS]

00:20:28   thought stuff was gonna be really really [TS]

00:20:31   different but I'm i would argue that it [TS]

00:20:33   that it lasted until nineteen ninety [TS]

00:20:35   from in the same kind of like a in the [TS]

00:20:40   same like frozen states because your [TS]

00:20:45   expectations like enough time for the [TS]

00:20:47   that generation that baby boomers to [TS]

00:20:51   come into power and purchase purchasing [TS]

00:20:54   and political power like there was this [TS]

00:20:56   latent period where it should have just [TS]

00:20:57   gone away but then right about the time [TS]

00:20:58   it should have gone away they were the [TS]

00:21:00   ones out there who are like you know you [TS]

00:21:02   get the big chill culture coming around [TS]

00:21:03   again [TS]

00:21:04   right right of well yeah that there's [TS]

00:21:07   that I mean that that that all through [TS]

00:21:09   the seventies I think they were still I [TS]

00:21:12   mean most of those people were like [TS]

00:21:14   really into x and high-five high-five [TS]

00:21:16   stereo systems I mean I'm just [TS]

00:21:18   basing this on old copies of we magazine [TS]

00:21:20   but starting in nineteen eighty like [TS]

00:21:27   they were so let's think about the baby [TS]

00:21:29   boomers for second as much as I hate to [TS]

00:21:30   do it in 1980 let's say the average baby [TS]

00:21:34   boomer was 30 years old and they are a [TS]

00:21:39   little bit taken their taken by surprise [TS]

00:21:41   by punk rock new wave and disco I mean [TS]

00:21:44   disco I think they were they were on [TS]

00:21:46   board but punk rock new wave it that's [TS]

00:21:50   brand-new and and editing and it doesn't [TS]

00:21:55   involve them it's not about them and so [TS]

00:21:59   they even at 30 years old that [TS]

00:22:02   generation starts to turn back and look [TS]

00:22:08   at themselves as a unit they start to [TS]

00:22:12   circle the wagons and that's what that's [TS]

00:22:15   the that's the beginning of when you [TS]

00:22:17   start to see this like well really [TS]

00:22:19   nothing ever happened after the sixties [TS]

00:22:21   like really the sixties with the peak [TS]

00:22:23   like 1968 that was the peak you know [TS]

00:22:27   yeah you started to hear that idea in [TS]

00:22:31   American culture and and that that [TS]

00:22:36   natural thing I mean in 1992 n it at [TS]

00:22:39   every point along the way you look back [TS]

00:22:41   10 years and go boy things really suck [TS]

00:22:43   10 years ago and then ten years after [TS]

00:22:45   that you're like wow things were amazing [TS]

00:22:46   20 years ago [TS]

00:22:47   you know there's that there's that [TS]

00:22:49   strange skips a mini generation kinda [TS]

00:22:51   yeah and and you can I mean you remember [TS]

00:22:54   how much shit we talked about the music [TS]

00:22:56   of the seventies we talked so much shit [TS]

00:22:59   about the music of the seventies or in [TS]

00:23:02   the late eighties early nineties i mean [TS]

00:23:05   i-i had multiple conversations with [TS]

00:23:07   people where everybody accepted the [TS]

00:23:09   basic premise which was that the [TS]

00:23:11   seventies were the worst Joe the worst [TS]

00:23:14   decade for music it can only be enjoyed [TS]

00:23:15   ironically it was only 20 years but I [TS]

00:23:18   mean I remember like for example and [TS]

00:23:19   have a nice day collection came out [TS]

00:23:21   which is full of like am radio hits that [TS]

00:23:23   I loved as a kid and still really like [TS]

00:23:24   today but it's all very it was very [TS]

00:23:26   ironic you know effect from from removed [TS]

00:23:29   and I remember that [TS]

00:23:31   oh it's a look at this garbage the best [TS]

00:23:33   like think about 20 like got popular and [TS]

00:23:36   around the time that like house music [TS]

00:23:37   was starting to really get big and [TS]

00:23:39   raving was making a pre raising kind of [TS]

00:23:41   age but still like the whole idea of [TS]

00:23:43   these like massive dance parties is [TS]

00:23:44   coming around that were very in some [TS]

00:23:46   ways very influenced by the by certain [TS]

00:23:48   sixties kind of five so far as justice [TS]

00:23:50   as you said before della soul that right [TS]

00:23:53   first record very very sixties [TS]

00:23:56   graphically and the daily Sasha the days [TS]

00:24:00   eh LOL dayz age y'all but the the the [TS]

00:24:04   thing about this also i like how in [TS]

00:24:06   1990s safe in 1992 like clothes from [TS]

00:24:12   1972 look so preposterous so you'd see [TS]

00:24:14   like Susanna Hoffs like ironically [TS]

00:24:17   wearing bell-bottoms in a video or [TS]

00:24:18   something or you think about the delight [TS]

00:24:20   video which is having a lot of fun with [TS]

00:24:21   that iconography but the thing is stuff [TS]

00:24:23   from 1972 looks timeless compared to [TS]

00:24:26   what people are wearing in 1992 go watch [TS]

00:24:28   it go into early sign fell and you're [TS]

00:24:30   like oh my god people i mean the [TS]

00:24:32   nineties is so much more eighties in the [TS]

00:24:34   eighties ever was [TS]

00:24:35   yeah are you hip now to the to this new [TS]

00:24:37   the little or no guard earth where you [TS]

00:24:42   know of course it's like artisanal toast [TS]

00:24:43   i think that's got to be a prank people [TS]

00:24:45   are wearing mock turtlenecks and that [TS]

00:24:50   dad jeans and I thing is you know i read [TS]

00:24:53   i read a couple of articles about it [TS]

00:24:55   where it's like is this real [TS]

00:24:56   but I mean I i know some kids and Israel [TS]

00:24:59   there there [TS]

00:25:00   the kids are rocking not just Cosby [TS]

00:25:03   sweaters but like to the next level of [TS]

00:25:05   ya registration scott simpson was ahead [TS]

00:25:09   of this all along [TS]

00:25:10   yeah he was wearing mock turtlenecks the [TS]

00:25:12   entire time before it was uncool up so I [TS]

00:25:16   don't know I I still I still feel a [TS]

00:25:18   little bit of of of resent resentment [TS]

00:25:22   like a little bit of residual resentment [TS]

00:25:26   about the way the sixties [TS]

00:25:33   [Music] [TS]

00:25:34   the the way this the urine smell of the [TS]

00:25:36   sixties was all over the music of the [TS]

00:25:39   late eighties I'm still mad at me [TS]

00:25:45   that's why I'm exam that's why only [TS]

00:25:46   always grown so that in the end the [TS]

00:25:48   Birkenstocks and yeah that whole I mean [TS]

00:25:52   you know I I feel like I dovin to drugs [TS]

00:25:55   with at least a certain amount of [TS]

00:25:59   expectation that I mean the way that's [TS]

00:26:04   the way the sixties culture subculture [TS]

00:26:07   looked back on itself and the way that [TS]

00:26:09   drugs had freed their mind and the way [TS]

00:26:12   that drugs were you know what separated [TS]

00:26:14   them from the squares and you know that [TS]

00:26:16   whole division that that might have been [TS]

00:26:19   and I think probably was pretty poignant [TS]

00:26:23   in 1962 through 64 like we're doing [TS]

00:26:27   drugs no one else has ever even heard of [TS]

00:26:30   them [TS]

00:26:30   this is you know like we are really [TS]

00:26:32   outside but but the matter the by the [TS]

00:26:37   time the mass culture got ahold of drugs [TS]

00:26:39   and it was just like a yeah all right [TS]

00:26:40   you all right you bunch of spoiled kids [TS]

00:26:43   but when i was 17 18 years old [TS]

00:26:46   that was back in them and you know and [TS]

00:26:49   I'm not even saying it was in that it [TS]

00:26:51   was in the top level of the culture but [TS]

00:26:52   it was it was throughout the culture [TS]

00:26:57   this wing king between baby boomers like [TS]

00:27:00   remember remember the ship we saw [TS]

00:27:03   remember the drugs and the times and all [TS]

00:27:06   the sex remember and at 17 and / you [TS]

00:27:10   know perceptive of of subtexts I was [TS]

00:27:13   like well yeah i wanna do the drugs and [TS]

00:27:16   and have the section and run away and [TS]

00:27:19   Volkswagen button and and protest the [TS]

00:27:23   war me when we had a course ronald [TS]

00:27:25   reagan that could stand in for a lot of [TS]

00:27:29   the it could stand in for fifties [TS]

00:27:32   suburban culture that we were rebelling [TS]

00:27:34   against but yeah I would have liked to [TS]

00:27:39   have at the one regret I have had not [TS]

00:27:42   being punk [TS]

00:27:45   is that punk legitimately was its own [TS]

00:27:50   what was a subculture of my time that I [TS]

00:27:54   could have participated in more actively [TS]

00:27:58   and it would have felt like it belonged [TS]

00:27:59   to me over and instead i rejected punk [TS]

00:28:03   for a you know for a handful of valid [TS]

00:28:09   reasons but instead i was i was sampling [TS]

00:28:14   from this buffet of other American [TS]

00:28:18   cultures that none of them belong to me [TS]

00:28:20   and they were all kind of Lies and and [TS]

00:28:27   now and i look back at that time 80 [TS]

00:28:29   let's say 87 through 90 one as a time [TS]

00:28:33   like I just I feel a little bit ashamed [TS]

00:28:37   even through because I feel ashamed that [TS]

00:28:41   I when I went to the Grateful Dead not [TS]

00:28:44   that I not because of the music but [TS]

00:28:45   because i was i went there looking for [TS]

00:28:48   I wasn't looking for a party I was [TS]

00:28:51   looking for enlightenment and that seems [TS]

00:28:55   idiotic to me now [TS]

00:28:57   yeah i can see that i felt that way [TS]

00:29:02   going to see like you to in 1985 you're [TS]

00:29:08   looking for enlightenment a kind of [TS]

00:29:10   enlightenment they were they were [TS]

00:29:11   transcendent in a lot of ways [TS]

00:29:13   no I mean look at the charts dude your [TS]

00:29:15   beloved Phil Collins you got Whitney [TS]

00:29:17   Houston you got Billy ocean you got [TS]

00:29:19   sharda and then you got them singing [TS]

00:29:21   about Martin Luther King I mean it [TS]

00:29:22   really seemed very important to me and [TS]

00:29:24   their shows were very you know it was I [TS]

00:29:27   I'm not gonna sit here and i'm super [TS]

00:29:29   wise or anything now but I i think i [TS]

00:29:31   understand a little bit more about [TS]

00:29:32   stagecraft today then I then I did then [TS]

00:29:35   understanding stagecraft is probably [TS]

00:29:37   part of what allows you to enjoy the [TS]

00:29:38   miley cyrus thinking like oh my god [TS]

00:29:40   now that you're officially an old man [TS]

00:29:41   you're allowed to go to things go how [TS]

00:29:42   did they do that [TS]

00:29:44   that must have been expensive care about [TS]

00:29:48   the lawsuit [TS]

00:29:49   miley cyrus has a lawsuit yeah well [TS]

00:29:51   who's sooner [TS]

00:29:52   one of the guys who worked on the tongue [TS]

00:29:53   got injured oh bummer [TS]

00:29:57   all the time when the tongue builders [TS]

00:29:58   see my experience is so vastly different [TS]

00:30:01   because up and just finish the story [TS]

00:30:02   from an hour ago somebody you could tell [TS]

00:30:04   when that when that Professor was [TS]

00:30:05   getting really stressed out because he [TS]

00:30:07   started second cigarette already [TS]

00:30:10   everyone was still burning [TS]

00:30:11   yeah and a couple occasions and these [TS]

00:30:12   days you did now these are the days when [TS]

00:30:14   he said let's sit here and go through [TS]

00:30:15   the pile and talk about what everybody [TS]

00:30:16   get wrong today when he was really [TS]

00:30:18   stressed fact he would actually [TS]

00:30:20   sometimes get a third cigarette lit and [TS]

00:30:21   that's when you just like SAT very [TS]

00:30:22   quietly you can be a bad classes going [TS]

00:30:25   to top that is called pathetic fallacy [TS]

00:30:28   Rose can't have an angry for no that [TS]

00:30:30   doesn't make any sense literally doesn't [TS]

00:30:32   make any sense that was me it was me [TS]

00:30:34   apparently [TS]

00:30:35   thank you sore nose is angry throwing a [TS]

00:30:37   call it twice that week it was a nose as [TS]

00:30:39   an angry thorn it mrs. before that I [TS]

00:30:41   think was it [TS]

00:30:41   I don't even know I can't even keep [TS]

00:30:43   track but the thing is this school was [TS]

00:30:45   such a little funky petri dish it's in [TS]

00:30:47   sarasota florida there were five hundred [TS]

00:30:50   and twenty students in this entire [TS]

00:30:52   college when I went there everybody you [TS]

00:30:54   I mean I honestly set can say my [TS]

00:30:56   products my memory was better but I knew [TS]

00:30:58   at least the first name of every person [TS]

00:31:00   who went to the school and I had talked [TS]

00:31:02   to well over a majority probably eighty [TS]

00:31:05   percent as an RA for a year I knew [TS]

00:31:07   everybody and I'm barge had been yeah [TS]

00:31:09   everybody nobody I i went through [TS]

00:31:12   periods where i was barefoot for a while [TS]

00:31:13   it goes to a barefoot phase that's [TS]

00:31:15   something you could do at this school [TS]

00:31:16   because we were it was a total it was [TS]

00:31:19   this little speaking of terrariums it [TS]

00:31:20   really was like a terrarium like [TS]

00:31:22   it'sit's I hate you know it's funny to [TS]

00:31:25   admit even at the time I was aware of [TS]

00:31:26   stuff like all the campus cops were by [TS]

00:31:29   and large read retired New York City [TS]

00:31:32   police officers who moved to Florida one [TS]

00:31:34   of the guys have worked on a boat that [TS]

00:31:36   the drag the East River another guy's [TS]

00:31:38   been a homicide cop and they moved to [TS]

00:31:41   Florida retired to Sarasota and they get [TS]

00:31:42   all fat and they worked at this college [TS]

00:31:44   for essentially they protected us they [TS]

00:31:46   didn't bust us they would have gotten if [TS]

00:31:47   we are egregious and dicks they would [TS]

00:31:49   bust us violence they protected us from [TS]

00:31:50   the community and people came to these [TS]

00:31:52   parties who want the enlightened drug [TS]

00:31:54   users that we were they roll them and it [TS]

00:31:56   was just strange though to have four [TS]

00:31:58   years in that environment at that time [TS]

00:32:00   so think about you know it's funny to [TS]

00:32:02   look up Big Chill I i would have guessed [TS]

00:32:05   picture came out like 86 came out 1983 [TS]

00:32:08   yeah it's see that's what I'm saying it [TS]

00:32:09   was [TS]

00:32:10   it was the that's the beginning of that [TS]

00:32:12   response to new wave where I mean in 83 [TS]

00:32:18   those big chill characters were in their [TS]

00:32:21   early thirties right and they're already [TS]

00:32:23   like getting back to the reunion 31 [TS]

00:32:27   years ago that Jeff Goldblum was in a [TS]

00:32:29   movie 31-year well he's in Annie Hall in [TS]

00:32:31   what 1977 bananas but anyway I'm just [TS]

00:32:34   saying I know I i try to always 11 this [TS]

00:32:36   am I remembering that my experience is [TS]

00:32:39   not unique very different and it for me [TS]

00:32:41   it really was like that first month in [TS]

00:32:43   haight-ashbury before the heroine [TS]

00:32:44   arrived it was it was a really amazing [TS]

00:32:46   about and the parties on the weekends [TS]

00:32:48   like the mixtapes that really were a hit [TS]

00:32:50   would be like I white lines talking [TS]

00:32:55   heads arm like a scratch perry like a [TS]

00:32:59   reduced this crazy mix of music i had [TS]

00:33:01   never heard in my entire life and then [TS]

00:33:03   you might hear like institutionalized or [TS]

00:33:04   something but whichever you want to [TS]

00:33:06   dance too but it was a lot it was a lot [TS]

00:33:08   of like hippies listen to like reggae [TS]

00:33:09   and hip hop a lot of people from New [TS]

00:33:11   York that came to the school brought [TS]

00:33:13   along this culture with them I learned [TS]

00:33:14   about def jam artists around the same [TS]

00:33:17   time anyway it's just it's just strange [TS]

00:33:19   because it was I felt like that just for [TS]

00:33:21   that one four-year period was such a [TS]

00:33:22   great time for me even though is you [TS]

00:33:25   know tumultuous like this for anybody in [TS]

00:33:26   their early twenties but uh it's then I [TS]

00:33:30   think about what we like to go somewhere [TS]

00:33:31   where you just had a ton of weed all the [TS]

00:33:33   time like outside the terrarium and it [TS]

00:33:36   scares the shit out of me [TS]

00:33:37   well this is the thing I pardon me there [TS]

00:33:42   was a handful of colleges that I and I [TS]

00:33:45   had never heard of the new school of [TS]

00:33:47   sarasota florida it's really really [TS]

00:33:49   small [TS]

00:33:50   it's it sounds amazing but the ones i [TS]

00:33:53   was aware of a were get read read santa [TS]

00:33:57   cruz santa cruz Colorado College [TS]

00:33:59   masiello like evergreen evergreen I [TS]

00:34:05   never considered but the aggregators [TS]

00:34:07   there on the alternative colleges [TS]

00:34:09   yeah and then you've got the ones like [TS]

00:34:10   Colby at the become prettier ones that [TS]

00:34:14   are still kind of small but but other [TS]

00:34:18   like look like look like bit like [TS]

00:34:19   liberal liberal arts college yeah your [TS]

00:34:21   classic enabler [TS]

00:34:22   antioch and so there was this this [TS]

00:34:28   little constellation of schools that I [TS]

00:34:30   that intrigued me and I think probably [TS]

00:34:34   read was the one that I that I imagined [TS]

00:34:37   myself at the most that that's in [TS]

00:34:41   organization or yeah and all of those [TS]

00:34:44   were places where you know the [TS]

00:34:45   combination of smallness and [TS]

00:34:48   exclusiveness and they were expensive [TS]

00:34:51   and and they were they were places where [TS]

00:34:55   young people could go and really explore [TS]

00:34:57   and that was yet and the adults that [TS]

00:35:00   were in charge felt like that was kind [TS]

00:35:02   of their mandate like where this is a [TS]

00:35:04   place for young people to explode but [TS]

00:35:07   all those places were outside of my i [TS]

00:35:09   could not reach them and so I was then [TS]

00:35:14   in the I was basically like out in the [TS]

00:35:18   world i mean gonzaga university was also [TS]

00:35:22   small but was not a I mean what-what [TS]

00:35:24   Gonzaga was was a place for young [TS]

00:35:27   Catholic people to meet each other and [TS]

00:35:29   get married before they graduate [TS]

00:35:32   however remind me how Jesuit the Jesuit [TS]

00:35:35   part of the school is it was mostly just [TS]

00:35:38   going through the motions or where you [TS]

00:35:39   expected to be a person of faith [TS]

00:35:41   no no I think that I think that the to [TS]

00:35:44   compromise the judgment colleges make [TS]

00:35:46   and that that I think all Catholic [TS]

00:35:49   colleges make is that adults Catholicism [TS]

00:35:54   is is widespread and diverse enough that [TS]

00:35:57   you're always going to have half the [TS]

00:35:59   population are just sort of affluent [TS]

00:36:02   practicing Catholics but not real [TS]

00:36:07   thumpers about it who you know what I'm [TS]

00:36:12   going to a conservative Christian [TS]

00:36:13   University not at all what I got a [TS]

00:36:15   mandate a reason for being there because [TS]

00:36:17   of that one thing [TS]

00:36:18   yeah if you want to be that if you want [TS]

00:36:20   to go to Notre Dame and be be a real [TS]

00:36:23   grind and spend all day in chapel there [TS]

00:36:26   certainly happy to a comedy but those [TS]

00:36:29   places are really a place to learn to [TS]

00:36:31   drink [TS]

00:36:33   in an adult way you know like you years [TS]

00:36:36   to learn to be a polite wealthy [TS]

00:36:38   alcoholic and and to meet and marry a [TS]

00:36:44   respectable member of your same order [TS]

00:36:50   right i mean this is where this is where [TS]

00:36:53   you send your kid to find that to find a [TS]

00:36:55   mate who is up your same creed and you [TS]

00:37:00   know and obviously get a good education [TS]

00:37:01   like pretty quick modification right [TS]

00:37:04   because it's probably somebody Catholic [TS]

00:37:05   it's gonna be his family some of his [TS]

00:37:07   family is enough money to go to [TS]

00:37:08   university and I mean it's got its got [TS]

00:37:10   it built in Catholic and respectable and [TS]

00:37:12   prosperous yes and but there's no so [TS]

00:37:16   that the Jesuit component Gonzaga yeah [TS]

00:37:18   there was a house where the judgments [TS]

00:37:19   lived in a lot of them taught the [TS]

00:37:21   classes but the judgments are going to [TS]

00:37:23   their own internal mean they're having [TS]

00:37:26   relationships with each other that are [TS]

00:37:27   that are their primary relationships you [TS]

00:37:30   know where they're related there on her [TS]

00:37:31   on-again off-again relationship with God [TS]

00:37:33   or whatever so there wasn't a sense at [TS]

00:37:37   Gonzaga like here we are here if this is [TS]

00:37:41   a giant sandbox where the where we're [TS]

00:37:43   going to let these kids like discover [TS]

00:37:45   the world if you wanted to discover the [TS]

00:37:47   world they had they had God there that [TS]

00:37:52   that that was you know that was [TS]

00:37:55   available if you were philosophical but [TS]

00:37:57   if you weren't philosophical there was [TS]

00:37:59   no you it's a warning courage to be [TS]

00:38:02   philosophical you know the basketball [TS]

00:38:04   team was what was what [TS]

00:38:07   most of the students cared about but I [TS]

00:38:11   think that was probably an experience [TS]

00:38:13   that was that was common to every small [TS]

00:38:16   college in America at the time which is [TS]

00:38:18   that that I was looking for [TS]

00:38:22   I was looking for a an experience like [TS]

00:38:25   the one you're describing it at newcomb [TS]

00:38:28   new school college and [TS]

00:38:32   and you know and making it for myself [TS]

00:38:34   with a small group of friends out of [TS]

00:38:36   whatever like pieces we could find and [TS]

00:38:39   usually what that meant was we all [TS]

00:38:40   climbed into a car and we drove down to [TS]

00:38:43   riverfront park in Spokane and found [TS]

00:38:45   some guy on the street that was selling [TS]

00:38:47   acid and half the time it was just paper [TS]

00:38:50   dipped in Arsenic and half the time it [TS]

00:38:53   was like the most amazing acid you ever [TS]

00:38:55   had in your life and how the hell did [TS]

00:38:56   they add about some guy and the street [TS]

00:38:58   in spokane have this stuff and then we [TS]

00:39:00   would go uh you know take acid and go [TS]

00:39:04   sit by the river and watch the water and [TS]

00:39:07   think to ourselves [TS]

00:39:10   whoa we are we are changing we are no [TS]

00:39:17   we're not just it changing internally [TS]

00:39:19   but we are some somehow through this [TS]

00:39:22   process we are going to make the world a [TS]

00:39:24   better place I don't know how we're not [TS]

00:39:26   doing anything but taking drugs but [TS]

00:39:29   somehow that is supposed to make the [TS]

00:39:31   world better raising consciousness right [TS]

00:39:34   somehow my my personal consciousness [TS]

00:39:36   being changed is is an act of resistance [TS]

00:39:40   and an active pull its political [TS]

00:39:42   activism and you know in fact is right [TS]

00:39:46   it's really passes certain that certain [TS]

00:39:49   very brief threshold it's none of those [TS]

00:39:52   things but but I didn't have a you know [TS]

00:39:56   what it was I didn't have a god [TS]

00:39:58   the only guide the only mentor i had was [TS]

00:40:04   like I think most people was television [TS]

00:40:08   or mass culture and and trying to trying [TS]

00:40:13   to figure out what the hell what trying [TS]

00:40:15   to understand what counterculture was [TS]

00:40:18   just by watching its reflection in the [TS]

00:40:22   the glasses of mass culture [TS]

00:40:25   you know what I mean I think so that [TS]

00:40:28   your it was from a from a certain remove [TS]

00:40:30   or like almost like almost through [TS]

00:40:32   translation you're trying to find [TS]

00:40:33   something authentic and you're watching [TS]

00:40:36   the shadows on the cave wall sort of [TS]

00:40:38   exactly yeah there wasn't a like if I [TS]

00:40:42   had ever met a 30-year old punk rocker [TS]

00:40:47   who said hey man I know that this seems [TS]

00:40:50   really stupid to you but there's more to [TS]

00:40:53   it than that come with me and let me [TS]

00:40:56   show you a couple of things you know I [TS]

00:40:58   it but it but he wouldn't have had to [TS]

00:41:00   have been a punk rocker if I never met a [TS]

00:41:01   thirty-year-old anything could be [TS]

00:41:03   somebody who runs a video store it could [TS]

00:41:05   have been somebody who runs a video [TS]

00:41:06   store that can be of that can be a real [TS]

00:41:08   like life chain in a small way real life [TS]

00:41:11   changing experience i'm gonna say hey go [TS]

00:41:12   to check out the century you know it's [TS]

00:41:14   in French you gotta read but like it's [TS]

00:41:16   you're gonna learn some stuff here but i [TS]

00:41:18   never had that [TS]

00:41:19   no I never met and I think some of it is [TS]

00:41:22   luck of the draw and some of it I think [TS]

00:41:23   maybe is that maybe I was personally [TS]

00:41:26   unappealing to 30 year olds when I was [TS]

00:41:29   20 but to whatever degree that that [TS]

00:41:33   gesture of taking a young person under [TS]

00:41:35   your wing even for a moment and saying [TS]

00:41:38   like hey i see where you are let me let [TS]

00:41:41   me give you like let me read this book [TS]

00:41:44   or whatever the the only exchanges like [TS]

00:41:48   that I was having were either with peers [TS]

00:41:50   or with much much older adults but [TS]

00:41:53   nobody that was helping initiate me into [TS]

00:41:56   the the simultaneous culture that's [TS]

00:42:02   happening beneath and beside the visible [TS]

00:42:06   culture and it took meal [TS]

00:42:09   it took me many years 22 when my way [TS]

00:42:13   through those corridors and find myself [TS]

00:42:15   and and feel like a member of it myself [TS]

00:42:18   that's really interesting to hear you [TS]

00:42:19   say that because it's [TS]

00:42:22   I think so [TS]

00:42:27   can you understand then you can look at [TS]

00:42:29   something like punk rockers or people [TS]

00:42:31   who like neway films but can't you on [TS]

00:42:34   some level also look at somebody who [TS]

00:42:36   goes to like a Midwestern christian [TS]

00:42:38   church and understand that it isn't just [TS]

00:42:40   that they believe in the wizard in the [TS]

00:42:41   sky there is an element of community to [TS]

00:42:43   it [TS]

00:42:43   for example i think that's what's common [TS]

00:42:45   to all of these things is you finally [TS]

00:42:47   found a place where you don't feel like [TS]

00:42:48   an outsider for a little while and you [TS]

00:42:50   found somebody who and it's so much as [TS]

00:42:53   to timing that's the other part where [TS]

00:42:54   you talk about a 30 year old person [TS]

00:42:55   however person I mean you know you you [TS]

00:42:57   in order to be a good teacher one of the [TS]

00:42:59   basic tenets of expertise is [TS]

00:43:01   understanding that in order to be a good [TS]

00:43:03   teacher you have to understand the [TS]

00:43:04   material extremely well but you also [TS]

00:43:06   have to understand the level of [TS]

00:43:07   expertise of the person you're talking [TS]

00:43:08   to otherwise it's pointless right if [TS]

00:43:10   you're the greatest calculus teacher in [TS]

00:43:12   the world you it's you're going to have [TS]

00:43:15   to modulate what you know to talk to the [TS]

00:43:17   three-year-old and it's it's unusual to [TS]

00:43:20   find I think it's unusual unless you're [TS]

00:43:23   like Forrest Gump it's kind of unusual [TS]

00:43:25   to meet more than a handful of people in [TS]

00:43:27   your young adulthood who hit you at the [TS]

00:43:29   right time with the right message to [TS]

00:43:31   help you understand something that used [TS]

00:43:32   to seem really opaque [TS]

00:43:34   yeah so I mean and that's when things [TS]

00:43:37   like the the punk rocker whatever I mean [TS]

00:43:39   there's a lot of people look at the [TS]

00:43:40   castro the castro is not just about [TS]

00:43:42   intercourse [TS]

00:43:43   it's about a place where people came for [TS]

00:43:45   the first time in their life and felt [TS]

00:43:46   like they weren't an outcast and that [TS]

00:43:48   there was somebody else in the entire [TS]

00:43:49   fucking world that was more like them [TS]

00:43:51   than not like them the first time if you [TS]

00:43:54   came here from not to be disparaging but [TS]

00:43:55   if you came here from you know from [TS]

00:43:56   Missouri or something you probably had [TS]

00:43:58   not met a really super out guy who like [TS]

00:44:01   dance on a parade float and was proud of [TS]

00:44:04   it [TS]

00:44:04   are you being this Virginia goods [TS]

00:44:06   Missourians Oh or yes [TS]

00:44:09   Castro I was theoretically sliding [TS]

00:44:11   misery for its lack of dancing floating [TS]

00:44:14   Missouri but that's but since like I can [TS]

00:44:17   think of these people specific people [TS]

00:44:19   somebody who maybe a tape that I meant [TS]

00:44:20   like you know a couple times and gave me [TS]

00:44:22   a tape of musical change my life for [TS]

00:44:23   people like I went out to dinner with a [TS]

00:44:24   couple times friends and my moms who [TS]

00:44:26   were a little younger that just do all [TS]

00:44:27   kinds of stuff about No Wave music and [TS]

00:44:30   it's like I had no idea what they're [TS]

00:44:31   talking about but it was a base they [TS]

00:44:33   were so cool and they were so [TS]

00:44:35   nice and they didn't talk down to me and [TS]

00:44:37   they treated me like a pier and they [TS]

00:44:39   made me feel like there is something [TS]

00:44:41   understandable in this in this opaque [TS]

00:44:43   culture and the problem pacity is the [TS]

00:44:45   capacity reads as danger to most of us [TS]

00:44:48   and sometimes extremely good reasons but [TS]

00:44:50   anytime there's something out there [TS]

00:44:51   whether something lot of people into or [TS]

00:44:53   not many people are into I think if we [TS]

00:44:55   don't immediately groc it's not unusual [TS]

00:44:57   to go like oh that's not for me [TS]

00:44:58   that's weird that's dangerous that's too [TS]

00:45:00   mainstream that's whatever but it's it's [TS]

00:45:02   just I feel you know I feel blast i [TS]

00:45:05   guess to have been to have people come [TS]

00:45:07   across my path where i wish i had more [TS]

00:45:09   of them and I want to be that person [TS]

00:45:11   somebody without being an asshole [TS]

00:45:12   without going on here listen to Pixies [TS]

00:45:13   like you no no that's okay i got playing [TS]

00:45:15   music I'm good but you know necessarily [TS]

00:45:18   really really good [TS]

00:45:20   well I i think you were blessed and you [TS]

00:45:25   know i'm i'm i'm reflecting now I'm who [TS]

00:45:29   one time I i had ihop adopt afraid to an [TS]

00:45:36   ad got off in Missoula and I'd made a [TS]

00:45:40   mistake the the train pulled into [TS]

00:45:43   Missoula and stopped and it SAT there [TS]

00:45:47   and i'm sitting on the train and I'm you [TS]

00:45:50   know I didn't understand how freight [TS]

00:45:53   trains worked at this point yet and so [TS]

00:45:58   I'm sitting in various with pitching [TS]

00:46:00   your tent in a dump [TS]

00:46:02   no this is after that ok after laughter [TS]

00:46:05   I'm learning [TS]

00:46:06   I mean I'm now I'm now successfully [TS]

00:46:08   choosing freights that are going where I [TS]

00:46:10   want them to go and i'm able to pick the [TS]

00:46:13   train knowing its destination or having [TS]

00:46:17   a general sense of its destination and [TS]

00:46:19   get on it you know in more or less safe [TS]

00:46:22   way [TS]

00:46:23   but this so the train comes to Missoula [TS]

00:46:25   and it just sits and sits here in the [TS]

00:46:27   yard and sit here for 10 minutes to 24 [TS]

00:46:29   12 minutes and my my brain starts [TS]

00:46:34   turning and I'm like oh I must have [TS]

00:46:39   gotten on the wrong train this train was [TS]

00:46:40   just going to Missoula and now it's done [TS]

00:46:42   and it's a i'm sitting here in the hot [TS]

00:46:46   Sun cowering hidden you know in this on [TS]

00:46:51   this flat car full of beams or whatever [TS]

00:46:54   it is and I should I i guess i should [TS]

00:46:59   get off this train and find a better [TS]

00:47:00   trainer or you know I was still I was [TS]

00:47:03   still too i have my I was more anxious [TS]

00:47:08   than I was knowledgeable so I jumped [TS]

00:47:11   down off of the train and I you know I [TS]

00:47:14   kind of run across the yard to to find [TS]

00:47:16   some shelter find some shade and then [TS]

00:47:19   immediately the train that I was on [TS]

00:47:20   starts moving and pulls out and heads [TS]

00:47:24   off to denver wherever i was i was [TS]

00:47:27   trying to go and I was like fuck you [TS]

00:47:31   know like there goes see you later like [TS]

00:47:33   if I just stayed on it for another two [TS]

00:47:35   minutes I would be out of here and on my [TS]

00:47:39   way and now i'm stuck in Missoula and I [TS]

00:47:41   got to go through this whole process of [TS]

00:47:43   finding another train and getting out of [TS]

00:47:45   here again so I walk into town and i [TS]

00:47:49   know i know somebody at the college you [TS]

00:47:52   mean I know you know I knew somebody [TS]

00:47:53   that was going to school there and so I [TS]

00:47:54   walk over them like kind of doing that [TS]

00:47:57   thing that I would do it when I would be [TS]

00:47:59   in a strange town I'd go to a first [TS]

00:48:01   thing I do is go to college and try and [TS]

00:48:05   find the common area the dining hall or [TS]

00:48:08   the student center and I would just go [TS]

00:48:11   find a couch there and took my bag [TS]

00:48:15   behind the chair and just kind of sit [TS]

00:48:16   and wait for something to happen and [TS]

00:48:18   more often than not something did you [TS]

00:48:20   know more often than not somebody would [TS]

00:48:21   come along and say [TS]

00:48:23   can I help you and I would say oh yeah [TS]

00:48:25   i'm looking for this person and I swear [TS]

00:48:27   to you eighty-five percent of the time [TS]

00:48:29   no matter where i was even at Rutgers [TS]

00:48:31   somebody would say that person the [TS]

00:48:34   person the first person to walk up to me [TS]

00:48:35   would say oh yeah I know them come with [TS]

00:48:38   me and if they didn't know who I was [TS]

00:48:41   looking for they would say oh let me ask [TS]

00:48:42   this guy and the the next guy would know [TS]

00:48:45   anyway i'm sitting in the lobby sitting [TS]

00:48:48   in the student center and university of [TS]

00:48:50   montana and this guy comes over and sits [TS]

00:48:52   down next to me and he's like hey how's [TS]

00:48:54   it going I'm like good and right away he [TS]

00:48:57   starts talking about Jesus and I've been [TS]

00:49:02   through it a thousand times already you [TS]

00:49:05   know I don't I've been through every [TS]

00:49:07   process the process of like I'm actually [TS]

00:49:09   going to sit and talk to this guy about [TS]

00:49:10   Jesus or I'm gonna I'm gonna beat this [TS]

00:49:13   guy and act like a dummy and have fun [TS]

00:49:16   with him or I'm gonna tell him to fuck [TS]

00:49:18   off you know I'd i had i done everything [TS]

00:49:22   that a young person could do and and now [TS]

00:49:26   I was just in a place where it's like I [TS]

00:49:27   don't have a strategy with this guy and [TS]

00:49:31   frankly I'm I've been tired and I'm kind [TS]

00:49:36   of feeling a little bit lost and so I'm [TS]

00:49:38   just gonna I'm just gonna talk to this [TS]

00:49:40   kind of just going to engage him just as [TS]

00:49:42   a human being I'm not going to try and [TS]

00:49:43   I'm not going to try and like it mind [TS]

00:49:47   met mind-meld or mindfuck with this guy [TS]

00:49:50   here and so we sit in the student center [TS]

00:49:53   and he's he is he's talking to me about [TS]

00:49:55   Jesus and there's this is simultaneous [TS]

00:49:59   narrative in my head where I'm asking [TS]

00:50:02   myself are you vulnerable right now to [TS]

00:50:05   this like what would happen if you just [TS]

00:50:09   said if you just abandoned your cynicism [TS]

00:50:12   and just and just went with Jesus like [TS]

00:50:16   what would that feel like and and i was [TS]

00:50:21   i was conscious of being able to [TS]

00:50:27   make that choice you know like at the [TS]

00:50:30   end up to that point my history as a as [TS]

00:50:34   a child of my own parents my history as [TS]

00:50:37   a kind of inhabiting the identity that i [TS]

00:50:41   had spent my whole life building at all [TS]

00:50:43   would have always prevented me from [TS]

00:50:44   being able to take somebody like that [TS]

00:50:47   seriously but I was sitting there and [TS]

00:50:50   you know and of course your app also [TS]

00:50:52   asking yourself the questions based on [TS]

00:50:56   their received narrative like is this [TS]

00:50:59   what it means to have your heart opened [TS]

00:51:01   is this what it feels like when God [TS]

00:51:05   touches you and opens your heart because [TS]

00:51:09   I am feeling as i'm doing as disposed to [TS]

00:51:14   this philosophy as I am to any [TS]

00:51:16   philosophy right now and you know I had [TS]

00:51:20   a very nice couple of hours with this [TS]

00:51:24   guy where he was really excited about [TS]

00:51:27   his faith and I was just as it seems [TS]

00:51:33   reasonable to me as anything and and I [TS]

00:51:43   and i spent probably six months after [TS]

00:51:45   that walking around going still feeling [TS]

00:51:50   like Christianity was a cult but [TS]

00:51:53   wondering whether or not I was like a [TS]

00:51:55   cult maybe a potential cult member like [TS]

00:51:58   maybe maybe this is what I should do [TS]

00:52:01   maybe this is God speaking to me what [TS]

00:52:03   was it well if you say what was it about [TS]

00:52:04   that particular exchange or your state [TS]

00:52:07   of mind or whatever [TS]

00:52:09   indeed and it wasn't just a simple as [TS]

00:52:11   like he hacked in with the magic phrase [TS]

00:52:12   there was what was it about the [TS]

00:52:14   particular time that made that resonate [TS]

00:52:15   with you i think it was that I i was [TS]

00:52:22   very starved for meaning and and had [TS]

00:52:29   been for years and and had sought [TS]

00:52:33   meaning everywhere i went and had found [TS]

00:52:37   none like the philosophies of all the [TS]

00:52:47   people i admired and none of them none [TS]

00:52:53   of them were revealed to be really [TS]

00:52:56   philosophies at all they were just they [TS]

00:52:59   were faking until they made it or their [TS]

00:53:01   philosophy was to general there wasn't [TS]

00:53:05   there did not appear to be any meaning [TS]

00:53:07   and and I think the idea when i was a [TS]

00:53:12   teen and in my early twenties was that [TS]

00:53:14   there was meaning and it was [TS]

00:53:16   discoverable and it was just hidden from [TS]

00:53:18   us because we couldn't handle it or we [TS]

00:53:21   weren't smart enough to detect it and [TS]

00:53:26   that you know at a certain point it was [TS]

00:53:28   like there doesn't appear to be any [TS]

00:53:30   meaning it isn't a question of there [TS]

00:53:33   being a plan that we aren't [TS]

00:53:36   that we don't see it's a it is really [TS]

00:53:40   just that every one of us is doing their [TS]

00:53:42   own thing and and it only looks like a [TS]

00:53:46   plan later and I didn't want that I [TS]

00:53:50   really didn't I wanted there to be a [TS]

00:53:52   secret and I wanted to be both smart [TS]

00:53:58   enough and also creative enough or smart [TS]

00:54:01   enough and also sensitive enough to be [TS]

00:54:04   the person that discovered it or was [TS]

00:54:07   capable of hearing it and and knowing it [TS]

00:54:09   and so at that at that moment and for a [TS]

00:54:15   while after that I was just like I was [TS]

00:54:19   open to people that open to people [TS]

00:54:24   proselytizing what I had already [TS]

00:54:26   rejected i gave it a new hearing and [TS]

00:54:32   that was the last that was the last time [TS]

00:54:35   I considered that there was really a [TS]

00:54:38   plan and when I went when I came out the [TS]

00:54:45   other side of that and I mean I would [TS]

00:54:47   have felt very vulnerable i felt like it [TS]

00:54:49   if one more person had come up to me and [TS]

00:54:51   put their arms around my shoulder and [TS]

00:54:53   said and had seemed smart and funny and [TS]

00:54:57   gentle that I would have said you know I [TS]

00:55:01   like the other option for me tonight is [TS]

00:55:04   sleeping in a boxcar so right yeah i'll [TS]

00:55:08   come have outcome have a re-creation of [TS]

00:55:11   dinner with you but on the other side of [TS]

00:55:15   that I never I never again really [TS]

00:55:17   believe that there was that that that [TS]

00:55:21   there was any kind of orchestration to [TS]

00:55:25   life [TS]

00:55:27   um it edit and and I don't think I was [TS]

00:55:31   ever vulnerable again to being [TS]

00:55:35   brought into a fold or or accepting a [TS]

00:55:41   doctrine I guess yeah yeah you seem [TS]

00:55:47   disinclined to give yourself over to [TS]

00:55:52   most things in general but especially [TS]

00:55:54   two things where you are so i can't [TS]

00:55:58   speak for you to speak for yourself but [TS]

00:55:59   it seems like you're disinclined to go [TS]

00:56:00   into things we expected to check out [TS]

00:56:02   it'll actually stop asking questions and [TS]

00:56:04   be a good German well that's something [TS]

00:56:05   even if I had done I don't know how I [TS]

00:56:08   would I don't know at the end of that [TS]

00:56:09   three-day weekend where I would have [TS]

00:56:11   been I don't think I don't think there's [TS]

00:56:12   ever there there's no narrative I i [TS]

00:56:15   might be SuperDuper 10 times more [TS]

00:56:17   disappointed i mean you might have you [TS]

00:56:20   might have been enraged because you [TS]

00:56:22   might have realized something that was [TS]

00:56:23   basically fundamentally hypocritical or [TS]

00:56:26   something about it that you needed to [TS]

00:56:29   get a little bit closer to the center to [TS]

00:56:30   to be able to see it [TS]

00:56:32   well that's what happened to me with [TS]

00:56:33   working in nonprofits you know I went [TS]

00:56:36   back east on that same trip and ended up [TS]

00:56:40   getting a job working at the National [TS]

00:56:43   Environmental Law Center which was a [TS]

00:56:46   ralph nader organization kind of [TS]

00:56:49   connected to the public interest [TS]

00:56:51   research group and I spent four months [TS]

00:56:55   really really really engaged in the in [TS]

00:56:59   the idea that you could that there were [TS]

00:57:03   liberal organizations that that were [TS]

00:57:09   paying for lobbyists and that lobbying [TS]

00:57:12   the government for liberal causes was [TS]

00:57:15   God's work you know that that was yes a [TS]

00:57:19   way to throw yourself upon the gears in [TS]

00:57:21   some ways right [TS]

00:57:22   I mean you really put your money where [TS]

00:57:23   your mouth is he to get out there and [TS]

00:57:25   actually do that and before step for [TS]

00:57:27   people who don't agree with you that's a [TS]

00:57:29   big stones it was and it was it and and [TS]

00:57:32   I was successful at it and and i was [TS]

00:57:34   promoted within the organization and I [TS]

00:57:37   got up to the point where [TS]

00:57:39   I I realized a that the people who were [TS]

00:57:44   really running this organization were [TS]

00:57:47   all young lawyers from ivy league [TS]

00:57:49   schools and I was 21 and they were all [TS]

00:57:54   probably 27 but they were you know yay [TS]

00:57:59   Lee's and they believed they knew what [TS]

00:58:05   was right and they believed they knew [TS]

00:58:06   what what they had to do and they were [TS]

00:58:12   working within the system and I felt a [TS]

00:58:15   certain amount of class resentment [TS]

00:58:16   because there was a although we although [TS]

00:58:21   they were older than I was [TS]

00:58:22   they weren't that much older than I was [TS]

00:58:24   once you can afford to work at those [TS]

00:58:25   places are often to use it and unkind [TS]

00:58:28   phrase trustafarians yeah the people who [TS]

00:58:30   can afford to make you know [TS]

00:58:32   twelve-thousand dollars a year working [TS]

00:58:34   60 hours a week are not people with [TS]

00:58:37   college loans to pay ya right there with [TS]

00:58:39   it with a year law degree but they were [TS]

00:58:41   yeah exactly they were they were smart [TS]

00:58:43   they were beautiful they were rich and [TS]

00:58:46   they were politically on the right side [TS]

00:58:49   and they were devoted to the cause like [TS]

00:58:52   all of that is very very appealing from [TS]

00:58:56   a distance you know I imagine that that [TS]

00:58:58   is what like Roman and hanging out with [TS]

00:59:03   ronan farrow looks like all it takes all [TS]

00:59:08   the boxes and the fact that they were [TS]

00:59:11   born on third and thought they had a [TS]

00:59:13   triple that they're also liberal enough [TS]

00:59:16   to know that analogy and to use it [TS]

00:59:19   against themselves but still that but [TS]

00:59:22   they still believe that they had a [TS]

00:59:23   triple but but sitting there within that [TS]

00:59:26   organization and and and i was in a [TS]

00:59:29   position where I started asking [TS]

00:59:31   I up where I was conscious of the money [TS]

00:59:34   we were raising and I started asking [TS]

00:59:36   where the money went and I wasn't in a I [TS]

00:59:41   wasn't a real position to see like nuts [TS]

00:59:45   and bolts where the money went [TS]

00:59:47   but we were raising a lot of money [TS]

00:59:50   and we were raising it because we we [TS]

00:59:53   were raising it by saying to people buy [TS]

00:59:54   into sending this army of Canvassers out [TS]

00:59:57   saying to be knocking on people's doors [TS]

00:59:58   and saying [TS]

00:59:58   and saying [TS]

01:00:00   the Clean Air Act is under assault we [TS]

01:00:03   need your help [TS]

01:00:04   and here's where your money is going to [TS]

01:00:05   go it's going to help to to pass this [TS]

01:00:08   legislation to support the Clean Air Act [TS]

01:00:10   to support the Clean Water Act we're [TS]

01:00:13   raising a ton of money and then what [TS]

01:00:17   that meant was what that money all got [TS]

01:00:19   put into a undifferentiated pot there [TS]

01:00:23   was no like the money that this person [TS]

01:00:25   raised about the Clean Water Act and the [TS]

01:00:27   money that this person raised about the [TS]

01:00:29   Voting Rights Act or whatever it all [TS]

01:00:30   went into the same pot there was no it [TS]

01:00:33   was not targeted money and then from [TS]

01:00:37   that pot what they did was pay lawyers [TS]

01:00:40   and lobbyists and lawyers and lobbyists [TS]

01:00:45   took congressman out to dinner and [TS]

01:00:50   lobbied them and the the disconnect [TS]

01:00:59   between the righteousness of those kids [TS]

01:01:02   on the street who were going [TS]

01:01:04   door-to-door and like you've gotta help [TS]

01:01:06   please Mr and Mrs America right a [TS]

01:01:09   fifty-dollar check we need your help and [TS]

01:01:13   then the ragamuffins who are working for [TS]

01:01:14   faking and then you then you trace that [TS]

01:01:19   fifty-dollar check-in and it just ends [TS]

01:01:21   up it's just steaks and cigars and there [TS]

01:01:26   was and and within that organization [TS]

01:01:27   there was a real like the response to me [TS]

01:01:33   was listen do your job you don't need to [TS]

01:01:36   know where them you don't need to know [TS]

01:01:37   about this stuff that's not exactly a [TS]

01:01:40   cult [TS]

01:01:41   it felt like a cold i mean that's that's [TS]

01:01:42   such a different defining characteristic [TS]

01:01:44   of a cult is it there are you taking [TS]

01:01:46   people for what they believe is going to [TS]

01:01:48   be a good life affirming life-changing [TS]

01:01:51   positive for them change he soon them [TS]

01:01:53   into the group you you work them really [TS]

01:01:58   really hard too late they're too [TS]

01:01:59   exhausted to ask questions [TS]

01:02:01   I don't know and the thing is i [TS]

01:02:02   supported everything that that for that [TS]

01:02:05   organization did I admired everybody [TS]

01:02:07   involved but again I felt like the [TS]

01:02:11   moment I recognized myself as a [TS]

01:02:13   log and the moment that I recognize my [TS]

01:02:16   own idealism and enthusiasm for this as [TS]

01:02:19   just a thing they were utilizing to [TS]

01:02:23   accomplish their goals which was not [TS]

01:02:27   which I wasn't really privy to your not [TS]

01:02:29   even want to know the real calls not [TS]

01:02:31   even allowed to know [TS]

01:02:32   not even you know never going to be [TS]

01:02:33   invited into that room right and these [TS]

01:02:36   guys are not even the ones these guys [TS]

01:02:38   don't really even have access to the [TS]

01:02:40   room the real room I just felt like oh [TS]

01:02:44   well this isn't for me either and you [TS]

01:02:50   know that a battle and I and I think [TS]

01:02:57   reflecting back what I what I recognize [TS]

01:02:59   is that I wasn't ever meant to be a [TS]

01:03:02   member in that way and what I really [TS]

01:03:05   missed was a mentor at some point early [TS]

01:03:10   on saying don't look for what you're [TS]

01:03:12   looking for in these things kid like [TS]

01:03:15   you're not going to find it in punk rock [TS]

01:03:18   or in the ralph nader's organization or [TS]

01:03:23   in a corporate environment like there [TS]

01:03:24   are some people who who don't belong and [TS]

01:03:30   I guess as I say it out loud I'm [TS]

01:03:32   realizing there isn't a mentor like that [TS]

01:03:34   the people who don't belong discovered [TS]

01:03:37   that and discover that path on their own [TS]

01:03:40   and that it is that it sucks [TS]

01:03:43   there's not many institutions that have [TS]

01:03:45   half a dozen people like that in them [TS]

01:03:46   right and it and it's only luck if i [TS]

01:03:52   would have I was on a i was on a boat [TS]

01:03:54   one time crossing from Morocco to italy [TS]

01:04:00   and i was considering i was i was at a [TS]

01:04:05   point in my life where I was considering [TS]

01:04:07   giving it all away like abandoning my [TS]

01:04:14   life and my history and moving [TS]

01:04:19   transitioning into a new existence of [TS]

01:04:22   like [TS]

01:04:24   constant like actually following my own [TS]

01:04:29   footsteps and in a way like like I was [TS]

01:04:33   gonna walk i was gonna walk off this [TS]

01:04:35   boat [TS]

01:04:36   this is a long time before I walked [TS]

01:04:37   across Europe but I was gonna walk off [TS]

01:04:39   this boat and I was gonna walk into a [TS]

01:04:40   new life where I did not have a past and [TS]

01:04:43   I was not going back to America if I [TS]

01:04:46   went to America again it was going to be [TS]

01:04:48   that I went to America not back to [TS]

01:04:51   America and I was going to become a [TS]

01:04:53   citizen of the world or something I was [TS]

01:04:55   sitting on the boat and I was really [TS]

01:04:56   thinking about what it would what it [TS]

01:04:59   would take to cut all those ties and I [TS]

01:05:03   and I'm not constitutionally a tie [TS]

01:05:06   cutter you know I I loved my family I [TS]

01:05:10   would you stayed in touch with your [TS]

01:05:12   family a hell of a lot more than must [TS]

01:05:13   apply now to be last and and in a way [TS]

01:05:16   like i am one of my characteristics is [TS]

01:05:20   nostalgia I am defy I carry nostalgia [TS]

01:05:24   Anna and a warm feeling for nostalgia [TS]

01:05:27   around with me and it ended it and it's [TS]

01:05:30   one of the things that keeps me from [TS]

01:05:31   being truly a radical is that i nurture [TS]

01:05:35   nostalgia in myself but I'm on this boat [TS]

01:05:40   and i'm thinking i'm going to just I'm [TS]

01:05:41   just gonna like do it i'm just gonna [TS]

01:05:45   burn up I'm gonna burn my old life and [TS]

01:05:50   I'm gonna walk off this boat on my walk [TS]

01:05:52   into a new life and there was a guy on [TS]

01:05:55   the boat who sat down you know who like [TS]

01:06:00   sami from across the dining room and [TS]

01:06:03   came over and sat down at my table and [TS]

01:06:06   he looked like mike mills looks now [TS]

01:06:09   she was an older guy great long gray [TS]

01:06:13   hair and it was one of those weird [TS]

01:06:16   encounters where a guy did sit down [TS]

01:06:19   across the table and say what's going on [TS]

01:06:20   with you man and I was like well I'm [TS]

01:06:25   thinking about not going back and he was [TS]

01:06:30   like I thought so i saw i saw that in [TS]

01:06:35   your face and I was like what man like [TS]

01:06:39   it really weird encounter and wait for [TS]

01:06:42   the length of this ferry trip he SAT [TS]

01:06:44   there and he was like do it [TS]

01:06:47   don't go back do it you know you should [TS]

01:06:53   and you'll never he can't know what the [TS]

01:06:57   future holds but it's going to be [TS]

01:07:00   amazing and you just need to do it and [TS]

01:07:04   you know I'm am sitting there like are [TS]

01:07:09   you wizard but but feeling so empowered [TS]

01:07:16   by this guy's attention and I think I [TS]

01:07:21   said some you know some version of like [TS]

01:07:23   will you be my god can I come with you [TS]

01:07:26   and he was like no no no that's not how [TS]

01:07:31   it works you you go like I'm I'm on I'm [TS]

01:07:38   on my own thing you you have to go and [TS]

01:07:41   do your thing and I was like and I [TS]

01:07:44   wanted to go with him I wanted to spend [TS]

01:07:46   like a month at least please just take [TS]

01:07:48   me home with you for a month and tell me [TS]

01:07:50   more [TS]

01:07:51   and you know the boat docked and I [TS]

01:07:54   walked off the boat and I was like I'm [TS]

01:07:55   done I'm not going back I'm not going [TS]

01:07:57   back to America I'm not going back to [TS]

01:08:00   I'm not going in Reverse but it but I [TS]

01:08:06   didn't have a clear picture of what that [TS]

01:08:08   meant i did it didn't take you know what [TS]

01:08:10   I mean like it was a it was a [TS]

01:08:13   hallucination and when when winter came [TS]

01:08:17   and I got cold and I got hungry you know [TS]

01:08:25   for five months after that i bought a [TS]

01:08:31   ticket back to America food and water [TS]

01:08:35   take it back to America like please take [TS]

01:08:38   me back America um and that was a you [TS]

01:08:44   know that was a moment that what that [TS]

01:08:46   was a crossroads that I that I i went i [TS]

01:08:52   took the road less traveled by and I [TS]

01:08:53   went about a mile and a half up what up [TS]

01:08:55   it and then I turn around I ran back to [TS]

01:08:57   the crossroads and took the took the [TS]

01:09:00   road more traveled by and that has made [TS]

01:09:03   all the difference also allow I like [TS]

01:09:11   have some follow-up I'm fine to stop [TS]

01:09:14   right there that was great [TS]

01:09:15   oh no I want I want to follow up [TS]

01:09:19   everything is profound is that better I [TS]

01:09:23   think I you see what frustrates me and [TS]

01:09:24   it took me a long time to realize this [TS]

01:09:26   I could have I could have called out [TS]

01:09:29   some of the bullet points of what [TS]

01:09:31   bothers me about people who proselytize [TS]

01:09:33   are people who are evangelicals but if I [TS]

01:09:36   had to summarize it in perhaps a [TS]

01:09:38   slightly glib way it's that when you go [TS]

01:09:41   to somebody you proselytize a point of [TS]

01:09:43   view you seek them out you find a [TS]

01:09:44   stranger and start talking to them about [TS]

01:09:46   something arm on the one hand [TS]

01:09:51   yeah obviously it matters what it is [TS]

01:09:52   that you're talking about but you know [TS]

01:09:54   there aren't that many people who [TS]

01:09:56   haven't heard of Jesus right to live at [TS]

01:09:58   least process i love it is on level [TS]

01:10:00   right [TS]

01:10:01   they've thought about not drinking today [TS]

01:10:02   whatever it is but with good bad [TS]

01:10:04   indifferent whatever it is as I said [TS]

01:10:06   here today I think the thing that bugs [TS]

01:10:07   me about the most is that the biggest [TS]

01:10:09   takeaway is from someone who [TS]

01:10:12   proselytizes if they're not really [TS]

01:10:14   really awfully good at it and offer he [TS]

01:10:16   made about it and the thing that makes [TS]

01:10:19   it feel a little guilty I'll really [TS]

01:10:21   across the board is that the impression [TS]

01:10:23   you are left with is that if I join up i [TS]

01:10:26   will become mostly an ineffective [TS]

01:10:28   salesman for whatever this thing is [TS]

01:10:30   because that's what this person is right [TS]

01:10:32   person is really doing is its sales and [TS]

01:10:35   they're not they're doing like entry [TS]

01:10:36   level sales or something like that if [TS]

01:10:38   you have any real questions are like [TS]

01:10:39   let's go talk to my let's go talk to my [TS]

01:10:41   manager [TS]

01:10:42   yeah yeah and whether that's in an [TS]

01:10:43   institution or whatever wherever you [TS]

01:10:46   decide to hang your hat beware of any [TS]

01:10:47   place that where you're not allowed to [TS]

01:10:49   ask good questions and but thatthat's [TS]

01:10:51   thatthat's i think in the end i say that [TS]

01:10:53   because like i don't think i would have [TS]

01:10:55   put it that way I wouldn't at all man [TS]

01:10:57   you don't tell me what to do would be [TS]

01:10:58   more white my way of looking at up and [TS]

01:11:00   out today just in terms of the [TS]

01:11:01   impression in that case you got this guy [TS]

01:11:03   who came up to on a boat and was kind of [TS]

01:11:06   not the opposite of that but you know [TS]

01:11:08   unless he was doing some extremely [TS]

01:11:09   advanced reverse psychology [TS]

01:11:11   it's pretty different from hey have you [TS]

01:11:13   heard about gravity can we talk about [TS]

01:11:15   gravity or you know have you thought [TS]

01:11:17   about cleaning your ears you know you [TS]

01:11:19   know how many people die each year from [TS]

01:11:20   that clean their ears [TS]

01:11:21   there's a simple solution you got [TS]

01:11:22   someplace better to be I didn't think so [TS]

01:11:24   it's like you know they're not they're [TS]

01:11:26   not at the skullenbones club trying to [TS]

01:11:28   recruit people for this there at the [TS]

01:11:30   station there at the commons there there [TS]

01:11:32   at all the places [TS]

01:11:33   where people are vulnerable and and [TS]

01:11:35   looking for answers that essentially [TS]

01:11:36   knowing it and and but the problem is [TS]

01:11:38   it's part of it is a journalist in a [TS]

01:11:40   branding problem i don't know part of it [TS]

01:11:41   is that what you come across you come [TS]

01:11:43   across as a desperate salesman and [TS]

01:11:46   that's not what anybody wants to be [TS]

01:11:48   yeah nobody wants to be a Salesman [TS]

01:11:51   nobody wakes up going i want to be a [TS]

01:11:53   Salesman or manager going to be Cowboys [TS]

01:11:55   and astronauts and I account person [TS]

01:11:59   destro bring individuals and I'm gonna [TS]

01:12:04   start pretty cool it's a pretty good [TS]

01:12:05   take on it but to this day you know [TS]

01:12:08   that's why man I like i'm not i have not [TS]

01:12:11   that it matters but i have a panhandler [TS]

01:12:13   that i sponsor in my mind my program is [TS]

01:12:15   I i pick a panhandler every time at a [TS]

01:12:18   given time and if the person disappears [TS]

01:12:19   for whatever reason i picked somebody [TS]

01:12:20   else but i will be always you one person [TS]

01:12:23   when IC make him five bucks that's my [TS]

01:12:24   entire approach I don't give anybody [TS]

01:12:26   else anybody out Girl Scouts money i [TS]

01:12:27   don't like begging i don't like going [TS]

01:12:29   places and having people stop me and my [TS]

01:12:31   daughter walking down the street to ask [TS]

01:12:33   me something to tell me something to I [TS]

01:12:35   don't want to i don't i don't think i [TS]

01:12:37   don't want to participate in that they [TS]

01:12:38   don't need to be just need a fan belt to [TS]

01:12:41   get their car we have a job interview my [TS]

01:12:43   sons in the car [TS]

01:12:44   yeah I so I mean I hope that doesn't [TS]

01:12:46   sound dad well you know what fuckin [TS]

01:12:48   medal don't care about that at all times [TS]

01:12:50   exactly that's exactly right and the [TS]

01:12:51   thing about you know what what what I [TS]

01:12:53   have reflected back on that Mike Mills [TS]

01:12:55   guy on the boat if my senses my senses [TS]

01:12:59   that he was like me he did recognize me [TS]

01:13:03   because everyone so I'll see somebody [TS]

01:13:05   out in the world and i will recognize [TS]

01:13:07   them as like me it's michael's a time [TS]

01:13:09   traveler it-it-it Mike there was [TS]

01:13:13   actually a real mike mills at the time [TS]

01:13:14   so if this was future Mike Mills coming [TS]

01:13:17   back he would have been like most [TS]

01:13:18   extreme he would have been risking a lot [TS]

01:13:21   yeah tell the space-time continuum but [TS]

01:13:23   the pretty captain I care about that and [TS]

01:13:27   if there was a guy that's gonna fit that [TS]

01:13:30   bill but uh but I feel like what this [TS]

01:13:34   guy what what was in fact happening [TS]

01:13:37   there was that this guy recognized me as [TS]

01:13:39   him and now he was trying to give me the [TS]

01:13:41   advice he wish somebody had given him [TS]

01:13:44   she hadn't you know he was no more [TS]

01:13:46   off-the-grid than I was he was on the [TS]

01:13:48   same fucking ferryboat from X to Y but [TS]

01:13:53   he was trying to he was trying to make a [TS]

01:13:58   difference in somebody's life and and I [TS]

01:14:01   think about that a lot [TS]

01:14:02   now when I see people and I try not to [TS]

01:14:06   give people advice that i wish i had [TS]

01:14:09   taken you know I tried to I try to eat [TS]

01:14:13   I'm it wrong you really fuck it up [TS]

01:14:15   you really do and anything away like you [TS]

01:14:18   don't know what was going to happen [TS]

01:14:21   because you didn't do it either like [TS]

01:14:23   you're you are try it's a kind of as a [TS]

01:14:25   way of trying to live vicariously and he [TS]

01:14:28   he walked away from that encounter he [TS]

01:14:29   was like I fucking made a difference [TS]

01:14:31   today and I set that kid loose on the [TS]

01:14:33   world right is it was a self-involved [TS]

01:14:36   I'll speak for myself too self-involved [TS]

01:14:37   version of pseudo time travel where you [TS]

01:14:39   wish you could have that conversation [TS]

01:14:40   with yourself when you could have used [TS]

01:14:42   it at the right time the right person [TS]

01:14:44   the right words to write everything all [TS]

01:14:45   the stars align and something happens [TS]

01:14:47   and you avoid wasting five years of your [TS]

01:14:49   life but it's impossible you can't do [TS]

01:14:50   that for you [TS]

01:14:51   you can't do that for them right and and [TS]

01:14:54   and the fact is nobody knows what would [TS]

01:14:57   have happened if I had if that guy had [TS]

01:15:00   when he was 22 just gone off the grid [TS]

01:15:04   and weeks when we don't know what [TS]

01:15:06   would've happened if I had because [TS]

01:15:08   neither one of us did and it might have [TS]

01:15:10   been it might not be great i mean i [TS]

01:15:15   dunno guys who have gone off the grid [TS]

01:15:17   and it isn't great for for them or for [TS]

01:15:21   the world so those protos profound [TS]

01:15:27   moments you know what what what that did [TS]

01:15:32   was it gave me 15 years of another thing [TS]

01:15:35   that i felt like i had failed you know [TS]

01:15:37   like that guy get that guy gave me [TS]

01:15:40   everything I needed and I should have [TS]

01:15:42   just walked off that boat and into a new [TS]

01:15:44   life and I chickened out for months [TS]

01:15:47   later I chickened out and I'm [TS]

01:15:49   oh really really you really feel that [TS]

01:15:51   way well no i don't now but I did give [TS]

01:15:55   yourself a white ribbon for that one [TS]

01:15:56   I did I did give myself a white ribbon [TS]

01:15:58   and and you know that because I was [TS]

01:16:01   always that was that era where I felt [TS]

01:16:04   like if you are using money if you are [TS]

01:16:07   using human money you are a sellout if [TS]

01:16:12   you if you need to buy your food at a [TS]

01:16:14   store you are not truly alive and the [TS]

01:16:21   only way you can think that way is if [TS]

01:16:22   you are if you do not understand [TS]

01:16:24   anything you know but i didn't [TS]

01:16:27   understand anything and I did believe [TS]

01:16:30   that that transact that I would that [TS]

01:16:35   somehow transactions where thing I [TS]

01:16:38   couldn't participate in that I had to I [TS]

01:16:43   had to find a new currency and my [TS]

01:16:47   currency was going to be song but you [TS]

01:16:50   selling an angry Buddhist monk where [TS]

01:16:53   that is that the concert kind of long [TS]

01:16:55   not that inaccurate kinda monk we got [TS]

01:16:58   your bowl and you have to go and beg for [TS]

01:17:01   your food each day but you're not [TS]

01:17:02   allowed to like squirrel anything away [TS]

01:17:03   yet to start fresh every day right [TS]

01:17:06   empty bowl every morning except I was [TS]

01:17:07   angry defeating the entire purpose of [TS]

01:17:10   exercise that's wrong 7000 reg is a [TS]

01:17:14   purposeless exercise so realizing that's [TS]

01:17:17   wrong 18a hope somebody's writing down [TS]

01:17:21   all these rungs we really we've got a [TS]

01:17:24   lot of runs hand comment caught [TS]

01:17:25   retroactive continuity we might need to [TS]

01:17:27   go back and adjust some of the numbering [TS]

01:17:29   a little bit but there are five or six [TS]

01:17:32   seven LRH did this with all the OT [TS]

01:17:35   levels [TS]

01:17:35   yes you do for a long time being he [TS]

01:17:37   can't believe there was a time when they [TS]

01:17:38   thought ot3 was as high as you can go [TS]

01:17:40   I cannot have both events and then then [TS]

01:17:43   all the sudden he's got OT levels like [TS]

01:17:45   like like crazy go nuts [TS]

01:17:47   well are they are the subsets of OT 30 [TS]

01:17:50   or 10 23 for all I think I'm sorry [TS]

01:17:53   subset a oh no I think I think I'm Cruz [TS]

01:17:56   might be a seven [TS]

01:17:58   yeah i think five weeks i'm trying to [TS]

01:18:01   remember excited [TS]

01:18:03   that book last year or so but i think [TS]

01:18:05   four threes when shit gets real [TS]

01:18:08   yeah i think i think for it maybe [TS]

01:18:10   there's the one with the dark night of [TS]

01:18:11   the soul one is the one where they like [TS]

01:18:13   you realize how horrible everything is [TS]

01:18:15   and then you get into the Xenu after [TS]

01:18:17   that but Ron's runs are friendly [TS]

01:18:23   everybody loves a ladder i like to climb [TS]

01:18:25   yeah i like to climb the thing about me [TS]

01:18:27   as i'm still climbing [TS]

01:18:28   I'm still standing after all these years [TS]

01:18:34   the connectors bother you can actually [TS]

01:18:37   get [TS]