0:00:00come see the Cassidy and comfortable and
0:00:01many other podcasts at the now hear this
0:00:04festival in anaheim california October
0:00:0628 through 30th do now here is this best
0:00:10dot-com
0:00:13the in time purple known 316 September
0:00:182016 welcome back everybody to be
0:00:25uncomfortable i'm your host Jason
0:00:27stellar here for another edition of our
0:00:29book club we're gonna be talking about i
0:00:31would say a classic book or at least a
0:00:34book that is not a current release it is
0:00:36a book from 1996 which means we are
0:00:39celebrating its 20th anniversary which
0:00:42kind of hard to believe the book that I
0:00:44really love when i read the first time
0:00:45and i re-read it for this podcast it's
0:00:48the sparrow a science fiction novel
0:00:50don't let anybody tell you otherwise a
0:00:52science fiction novel by Mary Doria
0:00:55wrestle joining me to talk about the
0:00:57sparrow are the following Erica and sign
0:01:00hello hello and shannon sudderth hello
0:01:03laughing keys and mr. book club himself
0:01:07hi guess who's coming multi hello
0:01:11so the sparrow some of us have read it
0:01:13before I believe Shannon and scott and i
0:01:16have read it before but that Erica it
0:01:18was new to you is that right i had never
0:01:21even heard of it
0:01:21well for you so in that new why did you
0:01:24agree to be on this podcast that's the
0:01:26thing i want to know i don't know and i
0:01:30saw i saw your your erica has been
0:01:32tweeting and posting our slack about the
0:01:35experience of reading this book to which
0:01:37i guess i would say thank you for
0:01:38showing up and for reading to the end
0:01:41mmm i got all the way through all the
0:01:45way through got to the end that America
0:01:47if you if you abide by the if you have
0:01:49nothing nice to say say nothing at all
0:01:51you're going to be very quiet very musky
0:01:53sure i'm not gonna be that quiet reading
0:01:58it again I realize all the reasons why i
0:02:00love this book and I also realized and I
0:02:02got to look out for all in detail all
0:02:04the things that i have a problem with
0:02:05about this book and that was good it was
0:02:07it was enjoyable to revisit it after i
0:02:09don't think i read in 1996 but I
0:02:11probably read it not too long after a
0:02:13year or two after so it's been almost 20
0:02:15years since i read this book the sparrow
0:02:17is the first novel by Mary Doria wrestle
0:02:19she has written many books since she is
0:02:21not really a science fiction writer
0:02:23although her first two books for science
0:02:25fiction
0:02:26she's written a whole bunch of other
0:02:27stuff in a bunch of different different
0:02:29genres she definitely has a focus on
0:02:32she's got a lot of Catholicism happening
0:02:34and and
0:02:35a lot of her novels this book is about a
0:02:40first-contact situation
0:02:43it basically is the SETI program that
0:02:45they are Arecibo radio Observatory in
0:02:48Puerto Rico picks up radio broadcasts
0:02:50very much if you see the movie contact
0:02:52you get the idea what's going on here
0:02:54and then what happens next is that the
0:02:56Jesuits basically by an asteroid on the
0:03:00cheap and fly it to this tile for
0:03:03Centauri where they have picked up these
0:03:05signals in order to make a first contact
0:03:07with the aliens there and they arrive
0:03:09before anyone else and our main
0:03:10characters are the members of that crew
0:03:12the story is told in two different time
0:03:15lines in 2020 or thereabouts-- 2015 to
0:03:192020 when they are headed out they
0:03:22discovered the signal and they're headed
0:03:23out to Alpha Centauri and in 2060 in the
0:03:26aftermath of the mission when the sole
0:03:30survivor of the mission and we don't
0:03:32really know quite what that means when
0:03:34this starts the the kind of disgraced
0:03:36sole survivor has returned to Earth and
0:03:39as being interrogated by the leader of
0:03:41the Jesuits about this terrible mission
0:03:45that has happened that has almost ruined
0:03:47the society of jesus and and so it's a
0:03:49very interesting premise for a novel and
0:03:53their yes there are a lot of aliens and
0:03:55stuff in it too which is why despite the
0:03:57fact that some people said well it's not
0:03:59really science fiction at the time she
0:04:01was going to be 17
0:04:02yeah because literary aspirations
0:04:04science fiction doesn't grapple with
0:04:06large issues of faith and and society
0:04:10and thinks he actually it does it is
0:04:11science fiction and it's got aliens in
0:04:13it to prove it
0:04:14so that's that's the sparrow it is it is
0:04:17at its core story about about Emilio
0:04:21sandoz a Jesuit priest who is the only
0:04:24survivor and how he got on this mission
0:04:27to go to this of this planet and meet
0:04:30these aliens and what happened and what
0:04:32happened when he got back home
0:04:34so that's a yes that's the sparrow it's
0:04:37got a lot of interesting issues about
0:04:38about faith about society about how we
0:04:41interpret them the meaning of life about
0:04:44other other people and other beings and
0:04:47there's a whole lot here
0:04:49so I don't know maybe we should start
0:04:52with some initial impressions about this
0:04:54book i'm gonna i'm gonna hold off in
0:04:55America because she just read it and i'm
0:04:58going to start with sort of like how
0:05:01this book lived in your memory and and
0:05:04your experience of rereading it so
0:05:05Shannon how about you and you you read
0:05:08this a while ago and then reread it for
0:05:09this podcast is that right
0:05:11that is right i went through a period in
0:05:15the early audis of trying to make myself
0:05:18read more science fiction and less
0:05:20fantasy because i'm @hardwick fantasy
0:05:22girl but we were I was the literary
0:05:27chair for a local khan and our guest was
0:05:29vernor vinge Eve and I had never read
0:05:31anything by him so I made myself read
0:05:34one of his more recent books before
0:05:35meeting him and working with him on the
0:05:38con and i decided i really need to fix
0:05:41this and kept going and looking for
0:05:43various things and the sparrow happened
0:05:45to be one of them i'm not sure but now i
0:05:48don't remember exactly what it was
0:05:50whether it was word of mouth from
0:05:52friends or just seeing it on a shelf
0:05:54something of that maybe say you know I
0:05:57wonder what this is like
0:05:59but in that period of reading syfy this
0:06:02is honestly only one of two pieces the
0:06:06other one being the red mars trilogy by
0:06:08Kim Stanley Robinson that I remember
0:06:10reading and at the time truly being
0:06:13blown away by on because it had this
0:06:17combination of explaining the science in
0:06:21a way that 1i could understand but to
0:06:25did not feel spelled out or dumped down
0:06:27and number two as you said dealing with
0:06:30these huge philosophical spiritual
0:06:34forces of nature you know all these
0:06:36different things anthropological things
0:06:38dealing with them in intricate ways
0:06:40without pulling punches and three the
0:06:43thing that struck me most of all was the
0:06:44characters this this band of people that
0:06:47were pulled together to uh to go on this
0:06:50trip just totally grabbed me their
0:06:54interactions their dialogue of Russell I
0:06:58think has a at least in this book a
0:07:00really strong
0:07:02sense of character and is able to bring
0:07:04them out and make them live off the page
0:07:06in a way I wasn't seeing another science
0:07:08fiction books which is of course why
0:07:10some people choose to call it not
0:07:12science fiction but as you said it
0:07:14totally is
0:07:14it's classic science fiction i think i
0:07:17think the interviewing 20 years famous
0:07:19library and Nancy Pearl has I don't know
0:07:21if she's officially recant your
0:07:22statement about the sparrow but she has
0:07:24come out as a proponent of science
0:07:26fiction it seems like she's backed off
0:07:28on her original review of the Spirit
0:07:29which is that it was too good to be
0:07:30science fiction which is shameful but
0:07:34that was 20 years ago and people can
0:07:35grow and change Scott what's your memory
0:07:37of the sparrow and and when did you read
0:07:40it and what do you think at the time
0:07:42well i believe i read it when it first
0:07:44came out and it hit me for a number of
0:07:48reasons AI think it's just a fantastic
0:07:50book but i also was raised Roman
0:07:53Catholic so it had that layer and i also
0:07:56went to a Jesuit High School so I was
0:08:00very familiar with the society of jesus
0:08:02and Jesuits in general and in fact it is
0:08:06the Jets who I have to thank for making
0:08:09me an atheist because whatever that is
0:08:11something something everyone is they
0:08:13teach you critical thinking and
0:08:15throughout my four years of high school
0:08:16and when i first went to high school I
0:08:18was pretty sure I was going to become a
0:08:21priest and by the time I left high
0:08:24school I was pretty sure that there was
0:08:26no God so all right
0:08:29it was my legs Jesuits Thank You Jesuits
0:08:31it was because of the Jesuits they
0:08:33taught me critical thinking and I was
0:08:35telling this story to one of my
0:08:36co-workers the other day and she said
0:08:39well the gesture was actually might not
0:08:40be so upset about that because they
0:08:42would be happy that you at least applied
0:08:44critical thinking through the process
0:08:45and i said well i think they still can't
0:08:48believe in god that's kind of one of
0:08:49their central today out soho even happy
0:08:51maybe someone has been going to the
0:08:53alcohol but so the stars align in this
0:08:57book because a it the biggest thing is
0:09:00dealing with his faith right and how
0:09:01your you how you deal with it how you
0:09:04you know there are many priests in this
0:09:06book and they all have different ways of
0:09:08expressing their faith
0:09:10and I enjoy that many of them you know
0:09:12you always hear the story of how you
0:09:16know God speaks to you and then you take
0:09:19up a vocation and certainly that happens
0:09:21but the characters in this book was
0:09:24basically say well i'm not insane i
0:09:27don't hear voices i am just not this the
0:09:30way I express my faith is through my
0:09:32actions and that's how I you know honor
0:09:35god I've never actually talked to God
0:09:37but you know with the main character
0:09:40goes through a journey where he kind of
0:09:42you know he believes in god please never
0:09:44had a bad experience with God and then
0:09:47he kind of he thinks he does right and
0:09:49it sends him off to this and then of
0:09:52course the end it may not turn out so
0:09:54well for him but yeah that that's one of
0:09:57the challenges that Santos basis is he
0:09:59he feels finally that he's had his
0:10:01moment of understanding of what His
0:10:03purposes and what God wants him to do
0:10:05and terrible things happen after that's
0:10:10a boot the thing i didn't remember i
0:10:12remember one central terrible thing that
0:10:15happens to him or to actually but I
0:10:18didn't remember all of the terrible
0:10:19things that happen through so as i was
0:10:21reading it as like this gracious me a
0:10:23lot of bad things happened to this man
0:10:24and everyone who goes to the planet
0:10:26uh-huh and it just also reinforce the
0:10:29idea in that I like novels in which the
0:10:32main character suffer literally which
0:10:36which I don't tend to like I said you
0:10:38know my my memory of the book was that
0:10:40you know that it was powerful that it
0:10:43was you know I i grabbed onto it because
0:10:46it was science science fiction yes you
0:10:48know but I could hold up a
0:10:49science-fiction book to all my friends
0:10:50and say this is worth reading arm but
0:10:54you like Scott I did had general
0:10:58generalities of things that had happened
0:11:00I had I'd somewhat forgotten the dual
0:11:05timelines structure that it was there
0:11:07all the way through and not just like at
0:11:09the beginning and towards the end and it
0:11:12took me a while to get back into reading
0:11:14this because as things started
0:11:16developing I'm just like oh yeah I
0:11:19remember
0:11:19oh no oh man
0:11:21but it when they hit to the point that
0:11:24you described where um where a jimmy
0:11:28Quinn discovers the music that there is
0:11:31an actual comprehensible message in what
0:11:34he thought was just some random blip
0:11:36from SETI and things start getting
0:11:39together of the people started all the
0:11:42different characters start interacting
0:11:43they start you know what essentially
0:11:45it's like you know yeah let's let's all
0:11:47be in a band together to build a
0:11:48spaceship there is a bit goofy how they
0:11:51do it but the enthusiasm that got me
0:11:53back into it which made remembering some
0:11:57of the things that happen along the way
0:11:59even harder and I'd forgotten just how
0:12:01powerful those last scenes are when the
0:12:03final revelations happen
0:12:06let's go to Erica erica your newbie you
0:12:09read this is the first time I don't
0:12:10think you know what you're getting into
0:12:11before we go into some specifics here i
0:12:15would like to hear your overview of your
0:12:17of your experience with this book
0:12:19well I did going completely cold i offer
0:12:21it's so rare that I get to go into a
0:12:24movie or a book or anything without
0:12:26knowing anything about it so I'm always
0:12:27excited when that happens I can just go
0:12:29into something completely cold and i
0:12:32think this is one of those times where
0:12:33complete it just backfired because had I
0:12:36known what this book was about going in
0:12:38i would have realized that this is a
0:12:40book that is like in capital letters not
0:12:42for Erica ah for yeah I have a you know
0:12:47up maybe I'm like the opposite of Scott
0:12:50here my my personal relationship with
0:12:52the with church stuff is is is
0:12:54complicated in such a way that it very
0:12:57much turns me off anytime that it isn't
0:12:59it in in a book
0:13:00so while I will when I will agree with
0:13:02with all of the non emotional reactions
0:13:05you guys had to this book it is very
0:13:07well written it is very well crafted
0:13:08this is a good book capital g capital be
0:13:11good book but it is just so not the kind
0:13:16of thing that I enjoy that I i don't
0:13:20know why i kept pushing through it with
0:13:22this infinite this had been an episode 4
0:13:24of like award reading or or even when
0:13:28we're we're doing two or three books or
0:13:29something like that I probably would
0:13:31have just stopped reading and
0:13:33and not finished it and that now that i
0:13:35have gotten all the way to the end of
0:13:37the book I i think that that would have
0:13:39been better huh
0:13:40for me I can't argue with any of the
0:13:42stuff that you guys have have said about
0:13:44its its quality it just yes it is it is
0:13:48very philosophical and that is so not my
0:13:50kind of another kind of thing
0:13:52yeah and I think that's one of the keys
0:13:53in that it delves into all these issues
0:13:56of spirituality and you know like you
0:13:59Erica I'm not got you an agnostic the
0:14:02fairest thing to say as far as my
0:14:04spirituality but this particular book at
0:14:07least not once do i as the reader feel
0:14:11like I'm being preached at and I think
0:14:12that is a marvelous marvelous thing that
0:14:15Russell manages to do to make this book
0:14:18a huge search thru spirituality how
0:14:22people arrive at their spirituality what
0:14:25happens when their spirituality seems to
0:14:27fail them and yet I as a reader not once
0:14:31felt like I was being told you should
0:14:33believe anything
0:14:34yes I i should point out that that is
0:14:37absolutely not you know that that's not
0:14:39my complaint I i agree with that she did
0:14:41a wonderful job of sort of walking that
0:14:43line of I mean you guys mentioned her
0:14:45characters and and you're right these
0:14:47are very well realized characters they
0:14:49all have inner lives two to one degree
0:14:51or another so I felt like I knew who
0:14:53these people were so the the examination
0:14:56of the spirituality is very much carried
0:14:58out from the perspective of each one of
0:15:00these characters and I did not feel like
0:15:02there was a view that I was supposed to
0:15:04be associating with more than any of the
0:15:07rest so that was that was a very nice
0:15:08thing it didn't make any more
0:15:11comfortable for me reading it but at
0:15:12least I didn't feel like I was being
0:15:13preached to you know one of things then
0:15:15forgive me for this guy because i'm
0:15:16going to hear a little bit away from
0:15:18Star Trek here but as we have to host of
0:15:21the audio guide about 15 hear that one
0:15:23of the things always appreciate about
0:15:24the TV show Babylon 5 was similarly the
0:15:27fact that it took religion seriously and
0:15:29that was a show written by an atheist
0:15:30but the fact was that he felt like you
0:15:33know what
0:15:35in the future in a few hundred years
0:15:36we're gonna suddenly not have religion
0:15:38that's been with us for thousands of
0:15:40years probably going to be important to
0:15:42humanity for a very very long time if
0:15:44not forever
0:15:45the existence of humanity so
0:15:47I mention that because as somebody who
0:15:49is not a believer in pretty much
0:15:50anything that's me i love seeing
0:15:54portrayals of people struggling with
0:15:57their faith and wondering about the
0:15:59nature of God and in a science fictional
0:16:01can't context I i think it's great
0:16:03because i do think this is one of these
0:16:05fundamental things about being a human
0:16:07being and that's one of the reasons that
0:16:09i actually really like this book is even
0:16:11as and not a particularly religious
0:16:13person I recognize the importance of
0:16:18spirituality in a search for meaning in
0:16:20people and and these characters are all
0:16:22experiencing it and they're all
0:16:23experiencing it from different areas
0:16:26which is fascinating to me the fact that
0:16:27you've got our main character is a
0:16:29priest who basically has never kind of
0:16:33never believed in god and feels really
0:16:36bad about that which is fascinating to
0:16:39me and and the idea that he has this
0:16:41moment of clarity and feels that he
0:16:43finally has his meeting and then things
0:16:46go horribly wrong on this planet I mean
0:16:48that the the the the title of the book
0:16:50the sparrow is very specifically from a
0:16:53passage in the Bible about how even when
0:16:55a single sparrow falls dead God is aware
0:16:58of it that the idea here that bad things
0:17:01happen in the world to and God is aware
0:17:03of that too well that I guess Amelia
0:17:06sent this is the sparrow kind of e a
0:17:09terrible things happen to him
0:17:11I so so I I that aspect of it is
0:17:15fascinating to be also i am a sucker for
0:17:17first contact stories and this has that
0:17:20it isn't you know like we said with the
0:17:23station eleven episode the you know
0:17:25still bear with me on this one Scott
0:17:28station level was a book that a lot of
0:17:31people didn't like because on our book
0:17:33club because it is not very good at
0:17:35science fiction showing an apocalypse
0:17:37here i would say the sparrow similarly
0:17:39if you're somebody good is going to get
0:17:40caught up in the science of this you
0:17:42know there's a lot of hand waving that
0:17:43goes on about how they get to another to
0:17:46another solar system right like that
0:17:48they don't describe oh we invented a
0:17:50drive that will take us there at half
0:17:52speed of light or where they just kinda
0:17:54she can you wave your hands and it's
0:17:56fine that's not her strong suit no it's
0:17:58not the Anthropology side
0:18:00anthropologie side is her strong suit
0:18:02and that shines through you have to
0:18:04squint at the science you have to end
0:18:06and for me it's okay because because the
0:18:08culture when it was she when they get to
0:18:10the planet red-hot it is it is so
0:18:13interesting that it's fine and it's also
0:18:16I my point is like with a station eleven
0:18:19you know it
0:18:21the details aren't the point here it's
0:18:22actually more kind of like the end
0:18:24result this is allegorical for the
0:18:27presence of the Jesuits in the new world
0:18:29essentially this is what would be a new
0:18:33new world for the Jesuits to have to
0:18:36have a first contact with and so it's a
0:18:39it's an alien planet instead and that's
0:18:42what she's really trying to do here in
0:18:43fact i'm kind of impressed that she
0:18:45tries as hard as she does to make a kind
0:18:47of hold together in terms of the science
0:18:49right because she could have completely
0:18:51just punted and been like and then they
0:18:53were on the other planet and instead she
0:18:55tries to go through recibo and getting
0:18:58the signals and all of that in the end
0:18:59its and it's very exciting and I I
0:19:01appreciate that because in the end
0:19:02yes is it kind of ridiculous that six
0:19:04people who were all together in Puerto
0:19:08Rico when the signal was made are part
0:19:10of a nine person or a person crew that
0:19:13is the first prefers people to go to an
0:19:15alien planet where where where alien
0:19:17life has been discovered for the first
0:19:18time before any governments or Space
0:19:21Agency's seems kind of ridiculous to me
0:19:23but you know what that's the story she
0:19:25wants to tell and we kind of go with it
0:19:27and I I mean I didn't it is ridiculous
0:19:30but i did also kind of buy into it a
0:19:32little bit because the the church
0:19:34doesn't have this you know the rules and
0:19:38regulations that i would imagine the
0:19:39government would have to follow so they
0:19:41can sounds like okay let's buy an
0:19:42asteroid and let's go and that's what
0:19:45they do and you know he convinces them
0:19:47that we we should do this we have you
0:19:50know priceless artwork that we can sell
0:19:51on the download and get us a suite
0:19:54asteroid and we can go off and you know
0:19:58we happen to have the people we need to
0:20:00make this a reality add a couple more
0:20:01priests and add a couple priest instant
0:20:06to just add Jesuits
0:20:09yep the spirituality aspect of it is is
0:20:13the biggest thing that turned me off
0:20:14about it but I think even if somehow
0:20:16this book were able to exist without
0:20:17that which certainly I long as possible
0:20:20but even if I had I still don't think
0:20:22that it would have been something that
0:20:23truly appealed to me because unlike
0:20:25scott once again I am NOT a person who
0:20:27really digs it when the the main
0:20:29characters in books suffer a lot like I
0:20:31don't mind some of it because you know
0:20:32sometimes you need that for a good story
0:20:34but I mean there's there's so few hours
0:20:38in the day that I get to read that I
0:20:39tend to like my escapism to be a little
0:20:41bit more escapee and and have something
0:20:44a little little bit lighter to to deal
0:20:47with and also the man to sort of
0:20:49back-and-forth flipping is is a thing
0:20:53that sometimes i like and sometimes I
0:20:54don't in this case it you find out at
0:20:58the very very very beginning that
0:20:59everything goes horribly wrong and it's
0:21:01just it's a journey of discovery to find
0:21:03out how things went wrong so that just
0:21:06had me kind of you know the clenched
0:21:09heart all the way through like what is
0:21:11going to happen I know something is
0:21:12going to be awful and I like i would i
0:21:14would rather know hit the outset that
0:21:16it's gonna end very badly then have it
0:21:18seemed like everything's gonna be fine
0:21:20and then it ends terribly so I guess
0:21:23this is this is a little bit better than
0:21:24that but but still i just spent the
0:21:27whole thing with a feeling of great
0:21:29dread yeah I was kind of surprised that
0:21:31i managed to sort of lose that dread
0:21:33somewhat once the the 2019 once the
0:21:38current day quote unquote a timeline
0:21:41started kicking together I was kind of
0:21:44surprised that I think the characters
0:21:45you know we're strong enough and having
0:21:48so much fun with each other that it that
0:21:50drew me back in on just like it did the
0:21:53first time I mean you know that i've
0:21:55read when i read this book the first
0:21:56time like you said it tells you right at
0:21:58the beginning things really went
0:22:00downhill and yet the first time around i
0:22:03managed to forget a lot of that until
0:22:05the last third of the book when it
0:22:07started really going downhill and
0:22:09gathering speed on and it almost
0:22:12happened to me again
0:22:13Yesi whereas i was just i felt like it
0:22:16was such work reading this book that I
0:22:19got toward the end and you know that
0:22:21some things that have
0:22:22and some things hadn't happened yet and
0:22:23i was just finding myself going ok I've
0:22:25actually you know I've learned to maybe
0:22:27not like so much but at least appreciate
0:22:28some of these characters because they
0:22:30were very well written but I literally
0:22:31found myself thinking oh my god just die
0:22:34already look like regular people like I
0:22:37like you but I know something Bad's
0:22:39gonna happen to you so can we please
0:22:40just get it over with
0:22:41just and I did I think the structure to
0:22:44your point Erica makes it all the more
0:22:46worse because you know at the beginning
0:22:48that you first meet sandoz and he's a
0:22:52broken character and then you flipped
0:22:54back to the past and he's like this
0:22:56bubbly guy that everybody likes it he's
0:22:57making jokes is helping everybody at you
0:23:00just like oh now i'm just gonna watch
0:23:02this person basically have the worst
0:23:04several years of his life and then come
0:23:07back and continue to downward trend so
0:23:10it's not not gonna be a great pleasure
0:23:12ride this episode of the incomparable is
0:23:14brought to you by Casper asleep brand
0:23:17that created one perfect mattress sold
0:23:20directly to consumers like me I sleep on
0:23:23one of days
0:23:23it eliminates Commission driven and
0:23:25inflated prices
0:23:27it's an award-winning sleep surface that
0:23:29was developed in-house it has a sleek
0:23:32design and it's delivered in a small box
0:23:35so small that you will say how did they
0:23:37do that the answer is vacuum technology
0:23:40I think something like that involves
0:23:42sucking all the air out and it fits in a
0:23:45box and then you open it and push it
0:23:47expands back to its normal size addition
0:23:50to that that mattress though that
0:23:51Casper's famous for
0:23:52they also offer an adaptive pillow which
0:23:55I have as well and soft breathable
0:23:58sheets I've got those two boy
0:24:01yeah it's all good stuff it really is an
0:24:03in-house team of engineers a Casper
0:24:05spent thousands of hours developing the
0:24:07mattress it's got spring latex and
0:24:09support of memory foams and creating a
0:24:11sleep surface it's got just the right
0:24:13sink just the right balance and it's a
0:24:15breathable design so it's sleep school
0:24:17to help you regulate your temperature
0:24:18through the night
0:24:20mattresses often cost a lot of money
0:24:22well over fifteen hundred dollars casper
0:24:24mattresses started 504 twin 754 full 850
0:24:29Queen up to 9 50 for a king buying a
0:24:31Casper mattress completely risk-free if
0:24:34you've got yourself while these casper
0:24:35mattresses
0:24:35sound good but you know what I don't
0:24:37want to buy a mattress on the internet
0:24:38that would be crazy
0:24:39don't worry about it Casper has free
0:24:41delivery and free returns with a hundred
0:24:43knight home trouble sleeping for three
0:24:45months and if you decide at any point
0:24:46you don't like it like Casper know they
0:24:49will take it away and give you your
0:24:50money back it is that simple
0:24:53so obsessively Matt engineering mattress
0:24:55shockingly fair price a great feel free
0:24:59shipping and returns to the US and
0:25:01canada try for a hundred Knights
0:25:03risk-free you don't love it they will
0:25:05take it away and you have lost nothing
0:25:07made in America it is Casper it is a
0:25:10great sleep surface try it out now you
0:25:13get fifty dollars toward any mattress
0:25:15purchase if you go to Casper calm /
0:25:17smell and use offer code smell
0:25:20terms and conditions apply thank you to
0:25:22Casper for sponsoring the incomparable
0:25:24so I'm gonna free everybody here I mean
0:25:27you shouldn't be listening if you have
0:25:28read the book but if you have are still
0:25:31listening we're gonna fire off a cry
0:25:32sort of a friendly spoiler horn right
0:25:35there just to make it clear before we go
0:25:37even deeper down in to the sparrow and
0:25:40if you like what you've heard from me
0:25:41and Shannon and Scott maybe you should
0:25:43read it and if you like what you heard
0:25:44America don't really hear
0:25:50it's beautiful music I feel like some of
0:25:55these episodes the spoiler horn is
0:25:57implied for the whole thing because why
0:26:00but yes I feel like we haven't like dug
0:26:02down into some of the worst of it which
0:26:03I'm gonna do right now because I mean
0:26:06when we talk about the two time frames
0:26:08right um i think it's interesting that
0:26:11that you could argue that this is trying
0:26:14to cushion the blow a little bit but of
0:26:17course i think also it's the structure
0:26:18is that she kind of wants the descent
0:26:20into darkness and the kind of like an
0:26:22ascent into finding a reason to live
0:26:25happen in parallel I mean I think that's
0:26:27what she's trying to do here it does
0:26:28give you the descent from the beginning
0:26:30when you're watching all these people
0:26:31who are very excited about this
0:26:32first-contact situation and going to
0:26:34this planet
0:26:35you already know that something horrible
0:26:37is going to happen and so that color's
0:26:40your judgment of it which it's it's an
0:26:42interesting choice I gotta say from the
0:26:45perspective of 20 years later one of the
0:26:47things about this book that did not
0:26:49impress me at all is one of the conceits
0:26:52here is that sandoz is returned by this
0:26:55second the second mission 2 rakaat he is
0:26:59he is found in a dungeon
0:27:02this is what happens he's found in a
0:27:04dungeon as the sex slave of an alien and
0:27:07they in all of his other and he and he
0:27:10seen killing an alien as they find him
0:27:12and then they put him on his asteroid
0:27:15ship and send it back to earth and radio
0:27:18back so it reaches them much before the
0:27:20the ship does that about this terrible
0:27:22you know state that they found him in
0:27:24and from the perspective of 2016 reading
0:27:27this I could not buy for a moment that
0:27:32the discovery of him
0:27:34everybody refers to him in the in the
0:27:35present timeline when he's this
0:27:37disgraced and disfigured because he said
0:27:39this horrible operation down his hands
0:27:41by these aliens as a prostitute and they
0:27:44everybody just assumes like okay first
0:27:47off let's let's break this down
0:27:48first off that he was a prostitute when
0:27:51they find him in a sex dungeon being a
0:27:53you know for for these aliens literally
0:27:56naked and bloody yeah nobody thinks one
0:27:59nobody thinks that perhaps another
0:28:01possibility was that he
0:28:03was forced into this and to when they
0:28:06call him a prostitute they assume it
0:28:09means that he was a willing and joyous
0:28:12prostitute which is also i think not
0:28:15something that you should assume and so
0:28:18it in reading this it this time I was
0:28:20like I i didn't i didn't buy that whole
0:28:23part of it makes everybody on earth
0:28:25essentially in the end in a later time
0:28:28frame seemed kinda like a dummy that
0:28:30because she wants this revelatory moment
0:28:32when he says no i wasn't doing that
0:28:35because I enjoyed being raped by aliens
0:28:38it was raped and and they're like what
0:28:40it was rape I had no idea it's like yeah
0:28:42you should've picked that up like when
0:28:44they radioed it back you should have
0:28:46figured that out
0:28:47mmm yes yeah that was that was my other
0:28:49big problem which I didn't know if we
0:28:51were in spoiler horn territory so I
0:28:52couldn't say that made me actually angry
0:28:54at this book because it's just I mean
0:28:56really the where we start out is in the
0:28:59the 2060 sort of present day and the
0:29:02whole framework of this book is based on
0:29:04the slow kind of on unveiling of what
0:29:08this character has gone through and and
0:29:10why he's he's so shamed and and and this
0:29:14is it I mean it just it nerf the rest of
0:29:16the Baltimore me to a really large
0:29:17degree
0:29:18yeah and I didn't feel that way 20 years
0:29:20ago but I I'm more aware of stuff like
0:29:22that now where I and and knowing what
0:29:24happens in the book and now i'm judging
0:29:25it on the reread based on what I already
0:29:28know what's going to happen i thought
0:29:29it's completely impossible to me that
0:29:31nobody would think that at any point I
0:29:34mean yeah I grant that there was a radio
0:29:36report from some people who had a skewed
0:29:38view of it and then he's silent because
0:29:40he's just kind of like coming back and
0:29:41he's completely comatose essentially and
0:29:44he won't talk to people so they don't
0:29:45know his part that nobody in the 20
0:29:48intervening years has not considered as
0:29:51a serious possibility that he is the
0:29:54victim of a horrible crime and yet i
0:29:57think because Russell wants us to have
0:30:00that revelatory moment and I was
0:30:01thinking as I was reading like you know
0:30:03the way to tell this story is probably
0:30:06to have him just be found in prison and
0:30:09have them not understand
0:30:13just how awful his conditions were and
0:30:15then at the end of the book him having
0:30:17realized no actually they kept me
0:30:19frizzled those last 10 months that i was
0:30:21on that planet as a sex slave and raped
0:30:24me repeatedly and have everybody be
0:30:25horrified when he admits that this is
0:30:28part this terrible thing that happened
0:30:29to him but instead everybody knows and
0:30:32they assume it's his fault and there and
0:30:34they're blaming the victim because he
0:30:36was wearing
0:30:37he was wearing a jeweled collar don't
0:30:38you know I'm part of it is that um I
0:30:41think in this is a Russell doing some
0:30:44criticism possibly of how quick human
0:30:48how quick it is in human nature is to
0:30:50look for the scapegoat we don't get a
0:30:52huge amount of detail but the fact that
0:30:55the the Jesuits you know since this was
0:30:59a private enterprise essentially just
0:31:00sort of you know snuck you know their
0:31:02team often into the asteroid before the
0:31:04United Nations or anybody else was even
0:31:06aware that somebody was actually going
0:31:08to try that the arm try to contact this
0:31:12planet a lot of people it was public
0:31:14that the contact has been made but um
0:31:18but no nobody official no government
0:31:21tried to do anything about it as quickly
0:31:23as the Jesuits did on and then for it to
0:31:25go so completely pear-shaped and buried
0:31:28all the transmissions right so it is
0:31:30nobody knows that's been a media
0:31:32blackout the scandal as a result when
0:31:35the UN committee when the UN
0:31:37representatives are as part of the
0:31:39second group get there you know they yes
0:31:42they jump to the wrong conclusion
0:31:45extremely stupidly arm but they are also
0:31:48looking at the entire rest of the crew
0:31:51is dead and the planet that they came to
0:31:55visit which apparently when they arrived
0:31:57was in this nice peaceful planet and
0:31:59everything's hunky-dory is now going
0:32:02through a civil war you know then that
0:32:06and the UN is either looking they're all
0:32:08looking for somebody to blame at the
0:32:09moment
0:32:09sandoz is the only one to blame so
0:32:11they've got this tunnel vision and jump
0:32:14and like jumping to conclusions i agree
0:32:15if this book was written today I don't
0:32:18think Russell would have had every
0:32:21single character more or less believing
0:32:24the original story somebody would have
0:32:26question
0:32:26didn't but this was 1996 and gender
0:32:31issues and so forth have advanced since
0:32:33then also and in the books defense guess
0:32:37I didn't say that i do think that it
0:32:40took so long for him in first time for
0:32:43him to travel back and the only
0:32:45information that they had you know why
0:32:47wouldn't they trust the word of these un
0:32:49advisor people because they probably
0:32:51didn't give super great details about
0:32:53the fact that he was naked and dirty and
0:32:55bloody and you know it
0:32:57non-responsive physically after they
0:33:00after they release him
0:33:01yeah the first thing they saw him do
0:33:02when they go into that cell of the alien
0:33:06girl who as a very young child
0:33:09sandoz had managed to make first contact
0:33:11whether his talent is linguistics and
0:33:14he's able to soak in and create and
0:33:15figure out languages very quickly on so
0:33:20the idea that this was a an alien that
0:33:23knew who he was and it sounded like that
0:33:26they were supposed to be at least
0:33:29friendly but sandoz attacks the second
0:33:33the seller's opened we learn that he
0:33:35sort of psych himself up into I'm going
0:33:36to end this one way or the other I'm
0:33:37getting out or I'm dying and it's just
0:33:40horrible bad luck that the first person
0:33:43through the door is this young alien
0:33:45girl and the first thing those you when
0:33:47people see is him run into her smack or
0:33:50so hard into the wall that she breaks
0:33:52her skull or her ribcage and kills her
0:33:55rights and so is that so the the thing
0:33:58is that these guys have basically grown
0:34:00up live most of their lives knowing they
0:34:03think what the deal is with this guy so
0:34:06I mean it's it is a pretty ingrained
0:34:10idea of what had happened to him so I
0:34:13mean I still don't completely by it but
0:34:15at least at least you know if they they
0:34:17had an awful long time to have believed
0:34:19this thing so that that meeting this
0:34:22weird guy is probably not going to
0:34:23completely jar that out of their minds
0:34:26yeah I yeah I just feel like from the
0:34:29perspective of 20 years later I'm like
0:34:30oh it's it could have been tweaked a
0:34:32little bit and been much more kind of
0:34:34believable to me then that it actually
0:34:36is
0:34:37let's say I mean we should let's talk
0:34:38about the food
0:34:40there's so much here I the characters
0:34:43are really interesting we we we meet we
0:34:48meet another another Jesuit who is we we
0:34:53find out right before he dies it's very
0:34:55much a i'm going to download all my
0:34:57final information before I die
0:34:59who is his mentor that he's actually a
0:35:01gay priests and because and I think what
0:35:06honestly one of the reasons that the the
0:35:08rape is part of the story of Santos is
0:35:10because she wants to us to think about
0:35:14and we we do for the whole book think
0:35:18about thousands of celibacy here because
0:35:20of course and O's falls in love and
0:35:23basically pushes the woman who falls in
0:35:26love with away because he has you know
0:35:29he he's now kind of high on his final
0:35:32hit you know it's sudden contact with
0:35:34what he believes is his destiny guided
0:35:36by god I'm so that that's part of the
0:35:38theme there but that's an interesting
0:35:39character he's a Texan we've got the the
0:35:42uh it's a Jewish artificial artificial
0:35:47intelligence experts who makes her
0:35:49living she's a vulture she makes her
0:35:50living basically scripting people's
0:35:52brains like into computer code so that
0:35:56they can be a little jobs can be
0:35:57eliminated but he falls in love with her
0:36:01and I thought it was interesting that
0:36:02the her character is a oh well not owned
0:36:07but yeah surfing right for most of the
0:36:09book in this guy who pays deals and
0:36:13basically pietrzyk people futures right
0:36:15he pays for he identifies a talented
0:36:18poor children and put them through
0:36:20school and you know identifies their
0:36:22their talent and then they basically
0:36:24have to work off all of the money he's
0:36:26invested in them so they contract them
0:36:28out and she is one of those people and I
0:36:31just thought that was something that did
0:36:33not seem that far-fetched to actually
0:36:35happening now today his which made me
0:36:37depressed
0:36:38yeah that was a bit so the whole Sophia
0:36:40mendez story is like a little like other
0:36:43science-fiction novel that she could
0:36:44have written because that that that the
0:36:46idea there also you know she's
0:36:48extrapolating 20 years ahead in her
0:36:50future there is a
0:36:53it's actually not too far off of what is
0:36:56happened in Syria happens in this book
0:36:59in turkey where there are right up there
0:37:02terrorists and a war a civil war and you
0:37:05end up with she's basically her parents
0:37:07are killed and she is she is sold off
0:37:12into prostitution first and then becomes
0:37:14an indentured slave and a highly
0:37:19educated professional at that point but
0:37:21she still got the fact that she wears
0:37:23this like bracelet that is her symbol of
0:37:26being owned until she can pay off her
0:37:29debt and it's a it's a whole interesting
0:37:31idea that is kind of just tossed off as
0:37:34a a side aspect of this plot but another
0:37:37thing to felt like a whole very
0:37:39interesting science fictional premise
0:37:40what about the UH I mean that if anybody
0:37:43have any other characters that they want
0:37:44to talk about and we can we get we get
0:37:46Jimmy Quinn who is your stock uh he's
0:37:49just a big science nerd who discovers
0:37:51aliens you know as you do you dig
0:37:54literally like I'm feet 7 yeah he's the
0:37:57777 and a half foot er um I like all the
0:38:01aliens think so clearly he's your mother
0:38:04and you should be carrying our house
0:38:06install yeah i'll come back to that
0:38:08later but yeah the fact that they're
0:38:10judging each other's races the humans
0:38:13and the the Runa is the first group of
0:38:16aliens they meet on this planet and
0:38:18they're judging gender by size and they
0:38:21figure out much later just how scrambled
0:38:24everything has gotten that apparently
0:38:25you know Emilio's studies in the
0:38:27language he made the same assumptions as
0:38:30far as which gender is being declined
0:38:32with which noun and finding out that yes
0:38:36they all assume that big seven-foot-tall
0:38:38Jimmy was the mom because he was the
0:38:39biggest you know if it had been just
0:38:42just sighs that was the gender thing i
0:38:45would have I would have found it amusing
0:38:46and interesting but no this is another
0:38:49this is another sign that this book was
0:38:51written 20 years ago because it was and
0:38:53the anthropologist also makes note of
0:38:56the fact that it wasn't just the size
0:38:58but it was also the moral duties that
0:39:01very happened and you know who is taking
0:39:03care of the children and and being sort
0:39:05of more maternal
0:39:06that sort of thing and I when he was
0:39:08going out of business in the bigger
0:39:09world yeah that's true but it's not flip
0:39:12with rona isn't that wasn't that the
0:39:14point there is everybody's making gender
0:39:15gender assumptions and it's the opposite
0:39:18right but she was she was just saying
0:39:19that that humans still have a certain
0:39:23gender assumptions which is the thing
0:39:25that was problematic for me at this at
0:39:27this point it's 2020 now milan i did i
0:39:29did laugh at the point where the book is
0:39:31taking place in what is now our present
0:39:33day and that was although although she
0:39:35didn't get tablets right shit these
0:39:36people are using tablets a lot like all
0:39:38right that's pretty good
0:39:39yep it's pretty good job and Jimmy
0:39:42Jimmy's a home computer gets hacked into
0:39:45by some teenagers that students write
0:39:47something about that right yeah they're
0:39:50so there's some some paper at one point
0:39:51that I was like nope that's probably not
0:39:53right but I thought you did okay with
0:39:56that as far as characters i love the
0:39:59Edwardses oh yeah I love the it's this
0:40:02it's a couple that you know you would
0:40:03not automatically assume to be the type
0:40:07of people to go on this mission they are
0:40:10in their sixties they essentially have
0:40:13retired and are doing volunteer /
0:40:16mission work in Puerto Rico that they're
0:40:20a hoot and a half
0:40:21just the way the conversations between
0:40:23them the way that they quit back and
0:40:25forth and with their friends is
0:40:27delightful but the that these are not
0:40:30your standard um hero's journey go off
0:40:34and quest type two kinds of people which
0:40:36i think is great i think yeah that was
0:40:38one of the things I like to the best i
0:40:39think and the most because you get to
0:40:41see a lot of her inner life as compared
0:40:44with George most of his inner life is is
0:40:45shown through and over but i just-i I
0:40:49liked her as a character i liked the way
0:40:51that she reacted to other people and to
0:40:54think she was thinking and I just you're
0:40:56right that the hoot and a half thing I
0:40:58wanted them to be my friends I want to
0:41:00go i wanted to go to their house and how
0:41:02many of them are these girls parties
0:41:03because she just
0:41:04yeah she sounded like the greatest host
0:41:06in the world yeah it's a fun you know
0:41:09these characters meet sandoz earlier on
0:41:11and then he basically says you should
0:41:13come to Puerto Rico and they're like
0:41:14yeah let's do it and they're there are a
0:41:16lot of fun and this is that's one of the
0:41:18things about this that
0:41:19about this like let's let's buy an
0:41:22asteroid not tell anybody that I kind of
0:41:24like is that you know when else are you
0:41:26going to see a story about a bunch of
0:41:28friends deciding that they're gonna be
0:41:30the ones to send a spaceship for a first
0:41:32contact with aliens it's like that is
0:41:35not gonna happen right and yet that is
0:41:37the purpose of this tour including the
0:41:39retired husband and wife who are the
0:41:41last people that you would normally
0:41:42expect to see in a first-contact space
0:41:44mission but they go and of course which
0:41:47is where you really need you really need
0:41:49the God aspect of it there because that
0:41:51does actually make it work without
0:41:53feeling hand-wavy because you can just
0:41:54be like okay you know
0:41:55Yeah right right although the what's
0:41:57interesting about the the couple is that
0:41:59the the wife who's the doctor is um is a
0:42:03basically completely lapsed Catholic and
0:42:06although she may potentially change your
0:42:09tune when they get to the alien planet
0:42:10you know she's she's among a lot of
0:42:14people who are believers she is not one
0:42:16and it's a very interesting kind of kind
0:42:18of combination that they have their it's
0:42:19a good yeah those are really good
0:42:20characters the dialogue is really good
0:42:22with those characters I felt like a lot
0:42:23of these characters really jump off the
0:42:25page not only sandoz but the the couple
0:42:26and Sophia mendez and the the Texan
0:42:30priests to who is a mentor
0:42:33these are all characters that this is
0:42:34one of those books where i can actually
0:42:35like I i start to cast people and staged
0:42:38scenes and higher their voices talking
0:42:41because the characters are so strong and
0:42:46and memorable I let's talk about aliens
0:42:50how about that no okay Scott you can
0:42:53stick limes so we get direct we get 2
0:42:55rakaat day they take a hollowed-out
0:42:58remaining asteroid and they threw
0:43:00magical undescribed of engine AI program
0:43:06is slightly physics you can accelerate
0:43:08and how they do that we don't know and
0:43:11then they decelerate and then they get 2
0:43:12rakaat and you know it it's fine and and
0:43:17they meet it and i really like i said
0:43:21i'm a sucker for first contact up i
0:43:22really like first off they land kinda
0:43:24like far away from everything and
0:43:26they're just sort of like basking in the
0:43:29you know in the in being off
0:43:33the asteroid 41 and in this new
0:43:34ecosystem of all alien stuff that they
0:43:36don't know anything about and they have
0:43:38to like eat little bit of food to see if
0:43:40the current it's poisonous or not which
0:43:41I kind of enjoyed all of that and and
0:43:43they do all of that and somebody dies
0:43:45actually which land they don't know why
0:43:47which I also really kind of like that
0:43:49this is when you're getting to the
0:43:50Jesuits coming to the new world right
0:43:52which is there are far from home that
0:43:54their that they're not going to just
0:43:55subsist on their rations they are trying
0:43:58to figure this out some of the people
0:43:59aren't going to make it and and there's
0:44:01not gonna be a clear reason why and then
0:44:04they finally meet the the aliens on this
0:44:07planet or at least they think of the
0:44:09aliens on this planet which are the Runa
0:44:11I'm and they and they have this question
0:44:13of like they get some stuff confused but
0:44:16because Santos is there because he's a
0:44:17brilliant translator and they they spend
0:44:20some time trying to figure out who these
0:44:22people are and and and how their culture
0:44:25works and I loved all of this stuff and
0:44:27it goes i was i was happy I was afraid
0:44:30that this was going to go on for like
0:44:31one chapter and then be done and and my
0:44:35memory of it is so warm that I wanted to
0:44:38go on longer and in the book actually
0:44:39goes on a very long time that they're
0:44:41that this whole portion is but i really
0:44:43enjoyed the whole first contact with
0:44:44value with Runa I'd read that as well
0:44:47but i do think there's they they spend
0:44:49like a year in this little village and
0:44:50they never liked feet ask about the city
0:44:53and try to get more information I found
0:44:56an odd but i did--like i enjoyed reading
0:45:00about it but I was like if i was there i
0:45:02might you know go check out the city or
0:45:04something I don't know it seems very
0:45:06tempting but maybe they're so
0:45:08overwhelmed with the the novelty like
0:45:11everything is new on this alien planet
0:45:12obviously they're writing scholarly
0:45:14papers about the you know they're taking
0:45:16it slow
0:45:17yeah i think part of it is being
0:45:18cautious and I'd I'm under the
0:45:20impression that at least among
0:45:22themselves some of the characters are
0:45:24saying you know we really need to you
0:45:26know try and you know try and find the
0:45:28people who are the singers because the
0:45:29whole reason they've come to this planet
0:45:30is the music that the city picked up and
0:45:34this particular population they don't
0:45:37music no they don't do it but i can see
0:45:41i think maybe it does stretch on a
0:45:43little bit farther than it could that
0:45:45might need to but
0:45:46there's always seems to be something
0:45:47else to do something else to take care
0:45:49of before trying to go on to the next
0:45:51thing ya i have I'm of two minds about
0:45:53this because on the one hand like I mean
0:45:56it from a logical perspective it does
0:45:59make sense to to sort of take your time
0:46:01and do it methodically accept these are
0:46:04people that immediately decided to jump
0:46:06in an asteroid and go to another planet
0:46:09so I don't feel like that that argument
0:46:12that great with impulse control that
0:46:14argument doesn't quite work however on
0:46:16the other side the reason that they were
0:46:18able to jump into an asteroid so quickly
0:46:20is because they're Jesuits and it was
0:46:22God's plan you know that this everything
0:46:24seemed to and they didn't talk in detail
0:46:26about all of the stuff that had to
0:46:28miraculously happen in order for it to
0:46:29fall into place but you know from and
0:46:31musing musings that they make it very
0:46:33clear that that everything sort of came
0:46:36together perfectly at the last minute in
0:46:38a way that did seem like it was
0:46:40miraculous so it made it very easy for
0:46:43the the higher-ups in the in the Jesuits
0:46:45to to say yes you know this is this is
0:46:48meant to be and I believe that there
0:46:51were a couple of nods to that in that
0:46:53like you know Jimmy really did want to
0:46:54get out there and go in the city but for
0:46:58one reason or another it seems like they
0:47:01should stay there
0:47:02you know the whole God's plan again
0:47:04amelia was leaning that way right and
0:47:06also um Russell does take care the the
0:47:10first member of the crew to die of what
0:47:12appears to be natural causes they try
0:47:14you know that and the doctor tries to do
0:47:16an autopsy and with essentially field
0:47:18conditions and can't figure it out
0:47:20that was the music expert right so like
0:47:22the biggest driving force in the party
0:47:25is removed very early on
0:47:27yep yeah the other thing that's
0:47:29brilliant that's like I said this is up
0:47:32it makes it so clear that Russell
0:47:34strength is anthropology because she
0:47:36throws in the gender mix-up at the
0:47:39beginning and you know it it turns out
0:47:41to be fairly harmless they just have to
0:47:43reassess what they had assumed and
0:47:45rework some of their papers but you know
0:47:48to make such a monumental
0:47:49misunderstanding of of the gender of
0:47:53these peak of the of the Runa arm and
0:47:56then take something as simple as
0:47:59you know we really need to grow our own
0:48:01food you know we yes we can eat a lot of
0:48:03the stuff on this planet but you know it
0:48:05would help if we had our own and you
0:48:07know just something simple as a plant a
0:48:10garden in this village and and start
0:48:12eating the stuff there
0:48:13turns out to have catastrophic effects
0:48:16on the biosphere because we learn that
0:48:19there's a second alien race that
0:48:21essentially you have a predator and prey
0:48:25situation that has evolved into this
0:48:28entire set of the job
0:48:31the Jaffa Jaffa yeah this is what I want
0:48:35when I tell you have the Jon a one of
0:48:37the things that's interesting here is is
0:48:39yes Shannon this day the innocence of we
0:48:43need to grow a garden is the thing that
0:48:46essentially destroys this planet at
0:48:48least as it was before they got there
0:48:50which is is a an amazing kind of moment
0:48:53where it unravels gradually and they
0:48:56realize what's going on
0:48:58so you mentioned that we should say it
0:48:59so there it turns out that this is a
0:49:00planet with two races and the reason
0:49:02that the Runa seem kind of dasol is that
0:49:05they have evolved from prey animals and
0:49:09there's another species that has
0:49:11involved evolved as their predators and
0:49:14they look similar because that was the
0:49:17hunting method used by the historical
0:49:20predators but the Janata have three
0:49:23claws instead of sort of five very
0:49:26dexterous fingers and when we meet one
0:49:30of them and it almost kills sandoz when
0:49:32we do we discovered that this planet is
0:49:35far more complicated than they have
0:49:37really anticipated and i like i like
0:49:40when they're like with the with the Runa
0:49:42because I feel like yeah they're they're
0:49:45they're so overwhelmed with meeting
0:49:47these people that they would they want
0:49:48to kind of take it slow and i think i
0:49:50can buy that but at that moment when
0:49:52they meet the jaw nada is that
0:49:53revelatory moments like oh this is much
0:49:56more alien than we really expected and
0:49:59we finally we'll go to the city with
0:50:03them
0:50:04it turns out that again Russell used the
0:50:07the traditional kind of predator prey
0:50:09population balance which is something
0:50:11that's like three or four
0:50:13scent of the population of this planet
0:50:15is the jhana ahh because that's
0:50:17generally the percentage of the ratio
0:50:20between predators and prey and and when
0:50:23you put it when you layer that on
0:50:25sentient creatures and this was a moment
0:50:27that I really liked you realize that
0:50:29what you've constructed is a ruling
0:50:31class a very small ruling class and a
0:50:35very large essentially slave or surf
0:50:38class and that's actually the culture of
0:50:42ricotta and and not just a slave class
0:50:45but they're still pray they still needs
0:50:49to us its candidate to us it feels like
0:50:51cannibalism because you've got to
0:50:53sentient you know races and one of them
0:50:55is eating the other but yeah we finally
0:50:58learned that that's one of the reasons
0:51:00that the population control is so rigid
0:51:03the rihanna the Runa are not allowed to
0:51:05breed are unless they earn it by
0:51:08gathering uh apparently perfume scent is
0:51:11massively a massive part of this culture
0:51:14and uh the Runa gather of the flowers
0:51:18and the plants needed to create these
0:51:20perfumes and create these sense and if
0:51:22they do a good enough job
0:51:23hey they get the right to have a
0:51:25generation kids that are better on bread
0:51:27with butter chosen by John auto because
0:51:31they're all the breeding them like
0:51:32humans would breed dogs
0:51:34yes yes exactly Jonna auto themselves
0:51:37are also under population control
0:51:39because they can't have too many of them
0:51:40because they need to keep the balance of
0:51:42the prey and the predator and so when
0:51:45when she introduces a super pirate right
0:51:49he's a third yeah he's the third so we
0:51:51meet him before he meets the humans and
0:51:55so we get we find out he's a third he
0:51:56can't have he can start his own family
0:51:58he really wants to he's really good at
0:52:01you know finding trends and you know
0:52:03cashing in on it so it's supremely
0:52:05wealthy but he's cool finder he has a
0:52:08cool he is it a friend spotter
0:52:10super-wealthy is very successful but he
0:52:14doesn't get any respect and he really
0:52:16wants to start his own family and the
0:52:18only way you can do that is if you get
0:52:20one
0:52:22what's the the dead head guys name
0:52:24registrar I think oh yeah the rest are
0:52:26yeah that's the title
0:52:28yeah you have to you don't impress him
0:52:30or do something worthy of being able to
0:52:32found your own family and so we know
0:52:34that's his motive and so when he meets
0:52:36the humans we know a boy this is not
0:52:38going to turn out well but they don't
0:52:39know that obviously and spoiler alert it
0:52:42doesn't know me he does he uses them for
0:52:44his own he takes his time yeah yeah
0:52:47that's right he uses he uses them but it
0:52:50in the beginning using them is not a
0:52:52particularly terrible but there comes a
0:52:54moment where he basically has to sell
0:52:55them out and does and without you know a
0:52:58moment's hesitation without any
0:53:00compulsion yeah because he's like
0:53:01whatever
0:53:02yeah I got what I wanted to get whatever
0:53:04I mean at that point she had been told
0:53:06he had made it would what seems like an
0:53:09actual emotional connection with a and
0:53:11but she dies much earlier on and by the
0:53:14time that soup re-release actually sells
0:53:16them out the only person left at that
0:53:19point is Emilio whom he didn't really
0:53:21care for to start with so I don't feel
0:53:23like I don't feel like he's necessarily
0:53:25you know it's throwing over some
0:53:27convictions that he had because the fan
0:53:29would have still been alive it might
0:53:30have been a different story true it's
0:53:31true
0:53:32well in fact support you could argue is
0:53:34is a be the thing that the NOC but he's
0:53:36got a with the other Janata is that he's
0:53:38so much he gets along so well with the
0:53:41Runa and if you think if you think about
0:53:43that any human context right
0:53:45he is a member of a ruling class whose
0:53:47greatest skill is dealing with the
0:53:48subjugated class and that is not good
0:53:50right even if it makes him a good
0:53:52businessman it means he is going to
0:53:54never be able to access high society
0:53:57because of that because he's his is all
0:53:58of his skills are in dealing with the
0:54:00lower class of of people in this case
0:54:03the Runa and so when he meets and and
0:54:07really really kind of bonds with her i
0:54:10believe that bond because I feel like
0:54:12that's what he's good at is meeting with
0:54:15other kinds of people he's kind of like
0:54:17the anthropologist of the jama oughtta
0:54:20but the problem is the only way he's
0:54:23gonna be able to further his line is to
0:54:25be appointed as the head of a new family
0:54:27which means he's got his success thing
0:54:30in the background and and you know and
0:54:32eyes
0:54:34off screen which I have a problem with
0:54:36and and in the end he just goes another
0:54:39direction but I think that's a really
0:54:40interesting character because although
0:54:42he portrays them at the end I think I i
0:54:46like that character because he's kinda
0:54:48portrayed as being an outcast from the
0:54:50jaw nada he's more like us than the rest
0:54:52of them are which i think is one of the
0:54:54problems with them under estimating the
0:54:56Janata as as a people is that the party
0:54:59and the wrong model for what they are
0:55:02because he's the weird he's a weirdo
0:55:04definitely is a weird he's gone native
0:55:06essentially with the with Runa and it
0:55:09and now with the humans and you know do
0:55:12not think that the rest of the people
0:55:13are like him because they are really not
0:55:15like him
0:55:16yes they're their encounters with the
0:55:18rest of Janata aren't the the free-range
0:55:20Jonathan ahead with City Jedi are not so
0:55:24good no right no we are either because
0:55:27they're the roving bands who are still
0:55:29sort of just acting as predators
0:55:31I feel like I was like their loan motors
0:55:34and they just go in and poach and sadly
0:55:36they poach some humans they do so let me
0:55:39let me so one of my remember 20 years
0:55:43ago ish when I read this book that I did
0:55:45it my biggest complaint about it is that
0:55:47i felt like and i'm going to describe it
0:55:49the way that I described it back then
0:55:50which is I felt like at some point she
0:55:52realized she needed to finish the book
0:55:54and what who and what was a meandering
0:55:59leisurely walk through dialogue and and
0:56:04aggressions and descriptions rapidly
0:56:08becomes a plot output to get to the end
0:56:10yeah i buy it so this time this time i
0:56:13watched for it and the fact is every
0:56:15chapter alternates between the two
0:56:17timelines until the last two chapters
0:56:19and last two chapters are both in the
0:56:21present-day the later timeline and they
0:56:24describe everything that happened on the
0:56:26planet in very short terms at a any
0:56:31completely different style than the rest
0:56:33of the book and it still frustrates me I
0:56:35was wondering if I would be proven wrong
0:56:37and rereading it and instead I was going
0:56:39to vindicate its like I do feel driven
0:56:41right I do feel like she ran out of time
0:56:43or ran out
0:56:43the of energy and she wanted to finish
0:56:45but I also i don't know whether this is
0:56:48true or not but I also feel like maybe
0:56:49she was a little cowardly about her
0:56:52killing her characters because we don't
0:56:54see and DW get killed on screen and we
0:56:57don't see the massacre that is the final
0:57:01destruction of this mission to the whole
0:57:04thing that they've been leading up to
0:57:06where everything goes wrong it's this
0:57:08incredibly dramatic thing and it is told
0:57:11in this perfunctory flashback fashion
0:57:14where we never really get to see it at
0:57:16anything like the level of everything
0:57:19else we've seen up to that point and its
0:57:20really frustrating it's made a little
0:57:22more frustrating by the fact that in the
0:57:24sequel to this book which i also read 20
0:57:27or 15 15 years ago and was disappointing
0:57:30i have to say it turns out that perhaps
0:57:33one of the reasons that she did this is
0:57:35because she was cheating and she wanted
0:57:37to lie about exactly who died in that
0:57:39massacre which is also frustrating but
0:57:42anyway right
0:57:43my point is my point is though that you
0:57:46can't it seems to me as as a reader and
0:57:49maybe even as an editor you can't be
0:57:51going like 20 miles an hour taking in
0:57:54all the sights and then when you get to
0:57:56the key point in the book
0:57:58floor it and that's what happens at the
0:58:00end of this book i agree because I was
0:58:02I've been my school is starting again so
0:58:06you know I've been busy and rushed and
0:58:08trying to read as best I could and here
0:58:12i was i still have like 60 pages of the
0:58:14book left to go at nine o'clock this
0:58:17evening and we started recording at
0:58:19ten-thirty my time and I'm thinking like
0:58:20I don't know that i'll finish but i'm
0:58:22going to try um yeah i was able to get
0:58:25through 60 pages in like 45 minutes
0:58:28because it is so much
0:58:30boom boom boom report report report yeah
0:58:32yeah it's not it's not your imagination
0:58:34i can i can come up with the reason i
0:58:37don't know if it's a good reason or not
0:58:40but i'll try to explain it so i think it
0:58:42could mirror one could argue sandoz
0:58:46journey at the beginning of the book is
0:58:48reticent he does want to talk about
0:58:49anything he's thinking about remembering
0:58:51the good times on the planet right and
0:58:53then as we're getting through there's
0:58:54that revelatory moments where they
0:58:56figure out
0:58:57you were in a prostitute you were being
0:58:58gang-raped and he you know he admits it
0:59:01and it wasn't his fault he finally kind
0:59:03of says you know
0:59:04ok wasn't my fault it wasn't anything I
0:59:06could do I was raped and then you cut
0:59:10there's that there's a pivotal moment
0:59:11for him and he suddenly just starts
0:59:14talking about what happens and reveals
0:59:16all these details and that's the last 60
0:59:18pages of the book now I don't know if
0:59:19that's a good reason but that if i had
0:59:21to write a paper explain the structure
0:59:23of the book that sure what I would write
0:59:24about
0:59:25yes i think is not that bad headcanon
0:59:28Scott but yeah there's a lot of great
0:59:32stuff in that that village i
0:59:33particularly like where they start
0:59:34farming because they need to to you know
0:59:37grow their own food and the arena
0:59:39obviously pay attention although you
0:59:41know that this point we don't think that
0:59:42the ruins are all that right but it just
0:59:45turns out that they are they are as
0:59:46bright as the regular people they just
0:59:48have you know that they're aliens so
0:59:50they do things differently and then they
0:59:52notice that the farming and so they're
0:59:54like gee why do we keep trudging so far
0:59:57away to get our food when we can grow
0:59:59some food here
0:59:59some food here
1:00:00and they start doing it and then of
1:00:01course that least horrible things i
1:00:03should point out horrible beatings and
1:00:05civil war and what they have done is
1:00:08also this incredible to put in Star Trek
1:00:10terms violation of the prime directive
1:00:12where the presence it turns out all as
1:00:15careful as they sort of were being they
1:00:17ruin this society because they the the
1:00:21room and begin to plant gardens and then
1:00:23they have an overpopulation and that
1:00:25means the general artist and out squads
1:00:26to kill them and there's a moment where
1:00:28one of the human says there are more of
1:00:31of of us than there are of you and
1:00:34that's like oh no because the entire
1:00:37power power structure is based on the
1:00:39fact that these predators I have to have
1:00:43put the fear in the prey
1:00:45yeah and and the room to start chanting
1:00:46that writes when the gentleman's this
1:00:48squad is there and the gentle kind of
1:00:51freaked out it just said ok we're going
1:00:52to kill you all
1:00:53there's the first massacre yeah yeah
1:00:56starts the Civil which its powerful
1:00:57right because it is that moment of like
1:00:59this is actually being held in balance
1:01:02by this consensual hallucination that
1:01:05the predators and prey who have evolved
1:01:08together in the society has evolved
1:01:09together are in these roles and these
1:01:12people from another planet come in and
1:01:14say hey you realize there's way more of
1:01:17you than them you could take them and
1:01:18it's like home
1:01:19well yeah okay that's it forget it like
1:01:22they totally screw up this society and I
1:01:25really appreciated that there could have
1:01:27been more of that too I feel like if she
1:01:30had taken those last two chapters and
1:01:32just let them go at the pace of the rest
1:01:35of the book it would have been a perfect
1:01:37book for my taste but instead it's sort
1:01:41of like somebody was given to the
1:01:42wrap-up sign maybe her agent maybe her
1:01:44publisher was like you need to turn in
1:01:46the manuscript right and I don't know
1:01:49it's it's it's dramatic but I love a lot
1:01:52about this book i was happy to read it
1:01:54the characters are indelible the the the
1:01:57the alien culture is interesting the yes
1:02:01the how they get there in the fact that
1:02:03it's eight people in an asteroid from
1:02:05the society of jesus that make first
1:02:07contact this kind of kind of ludicrous
1:02:09and in one way but it's the story she
1:02:11wants to tell because she wants to get
1:02:13a Jesuit mission out to a new world
1:02:14having a a experience meeting people
1:02:18that they've never met before and that's
1:02:20the purpose of the book so that's what
1:02:22she does and there's so many somebody
1:02:24moments in this book that works so well
1:02:26but the problem is that they work so
1:02:28well because they are gut-wrenching yes
1:02:30and I the one that sticks out to be is
1:02:33so after the slaughter the Janata patrol
1:02:36cakes sandoz and the other another
1:02:41priest Robicheaux that the survivors
1:02:43yes that they're the two survivors
1:02:44they're gonna take it back to the city
1:02:46but before they do that they are going
1:02:48to talk them through the the ruin of
1:02:51villages that they're gonna go kill
1:02:52people in because of the gardens that
1:02:54they have planted and it turns out
1:02:56that's on the road they eat the babies
1:03:00of the Runa and they offer the food to
1:03:03the two humans and the the one priest
1:03:07refuses to eat it and he dies and centos
1:03:11it does eat it because he wants to live
1:03:13and let you know in the the 26 t-storm
1:03:17one of the characters asks and what was
1:03:19there something that you ate that mark
1:03:21didn't that maybe that explains his
1:03:22death and you don't know the
1:03:24significance of that line until you read
1:03:27the flashback and you're like oh man
1:03:29yep this book well I mean Shannon
1:03:32America know that I am I am drawn to
1:03:34those uh those darker episodes of
1:03:37Babylon 5 on their podcast there that is
1:03:39part of the appeal of this book to me is
1:03:41that it it does it go so horribly wrong
1:03:43and you feel for these characters and
1:03:45although i don't enjoy how wrong is
1:03:47going to sound like I'm looking on it
1:03:48with glee
1:03:49I appreciate the fact that that story
1:03:51has made me feel so horrible for these
1:03:54characters that I like about this
1:03:55terrible situation that they're put in
1:03:57and it's just it's so yeah it's so
1:04:00amazing that that's part of look at
1:04:03sandoz this is all about his kind of the
1:04:06life of his soul and the disposition of
1:04:09his soul and he thinks that he is a
1:04:11failure as a priest and then he finally
1:04:13finds his calling and then the whole
1:04:16thing goes so horribly wrong that in the
1:04:20end you know all of these terrible
1:04:22things happen to him that and and that's
1:04:25the culmination of the story
1:04:27really is that you're left with this
1:04:28question of force and O's can you
1:04:30forgive himself
1:04:31can anybody forgive him and the
1:04:33overarching question which is can he
1:04:35believe in God anymore after being being
1:04:39shown the possibility and then having
1:04:43all of it taken away and i do mean all
1:04:46because a yeah they're reading this the
1:04:49second time around it it it hit me again
1:04:52just help had just Russell's pretty much
1:04:55just taking the knife and just turning
1:04:57it like a corkscrew because you've got
1:05:00um you know that you've got the the
1:05:02issue of sandoz essentially being sold
1:05:05into this up into this into this leaders
1:05:09brothel as you know as an attraction as
1:05:13you know an unusual exotic uh a partner
1:05:17for people to rape you've got the fact
1:05:20that he misunderstands what sapori asks
1:05:25of him he safari actually asks him but
1:05:27you know I want to take you into my
1:05:29house I want to make you my dependent
1:05:30and uses a word that sandoz does not
1:05:33parse the pieces of until later and that
1:05:36leads to the mutilation of their
1:05:38missions where basically yet try to like
1:05:40cut out between the bones of hand so
1:05:42he's got it
1:05:43the two priests have these like claws
1:05:45and as you said because the other priest
1:05:48has been refusing to eat the the Runa
1:05:52corpses them he dies but you know of the
1:05:55operation but sandoz lives through that
1:05:57and then he finally gets to a one point
1:06:00where he thinks he's finally met the
1:06:03singer the person who has been producing
1:06:05this music and it's like okay it's what
1:06:07brought me all of this is worth all this
1:06:09one thinks the guy's a prophet he thinks
1:06:11you know that he's been you know
1:06:12praising god and he finds out know the
1:06:15guys music is basically about orgasms
1:06:18and pornography and it's like how much
1:06:22worse can you make his rape and his rape
1:06:24victims of which sandoz is now one I
1:06:26mean that that is how horrible this
1:06:28thing gets is but the sender's they find
1:06:30this beautiful music from across the
1:06:32universe and they go to find it and in
1:06:35the end Santos finds the beautiful
1:06:37singer and he is a race
1:06:39fist who rapes him and the songs turn
1:06:42out to be about the rapes that he does
1:06:44it is as horrible
1:06:45I mean it's horrible like that is it is
1:06:49so horrible it is so good and then it's
1:06:51comical there's there are many chapters
1:06:54were ascending was talking about you
1:06:56know his vow of chastity and if it's
1:06:58worth it and it's tricky to introduce ya
1:07:00decide who makes a very conscious effort
1:07:02at decision know it that oath is sacred
1:07:05to me and i cannot even though i am
1:07:07stranded on this planet and there's a
1:07:09woman who loves me and I love her and he
1:07:12and Sophia clearly love that each other
1:07:14yeah yeah I'm not going to do it and
1:07:17then you know it just makes it all worse
1:07:19yeah and the the fact that it's a very
1:07:21end you know he's he's really left with
1:07:23a choice which we don't get to see him
1:07:24make but Santos has to decide okay so
1:07:27was this really all you know is there no
1:07:30God and this was all my fault all these
1:07:32horrible things happen just because i
1:07:34made this mistake and set it all in
1:07:36motion or is there really a god and it's
1:07:40actually God's fault that all of this
1:07:42LOL awful stuff happened to me and I
1:07:44wanted and yeah like so so what what
1:07:46what too horrible things to have to
1:07:48choose between sick you do really come
1:07:50to an understanding of of why he is so
1:07:53messed up all the way through the book
1:07:55but yeah I was halfway through he's
1:07:57having the same kind of discussion with
1:07:58an who is throwing that exact question
1:08:01in his face you know if you know all
1:08:03these you know why is it why do we thank
1:08:05god for the good things and then blame
1:08:06ourselves to blame the doctor or blame
1:08:09you know driver whoever has a rant about
1:08:11that whole thing that she and little
1:08:14basically says yes and 0 says you know
1:08:16what if you want to blame God go for it
1:08:18you know at least believing in God again
1:08:20but yeah go for it if that's what you
1:08:22need do it and you know rest we get to
1:08:25the end of the book and he's facing that
1:08:27same choice only now there's nobody
1:08:29because he's surrounded by other Jesuit
1:08:31priests who are trying to get to the
1:08:33bottom of this
1:08:33there is no one around there who has the
1:08:35guts to tell him if that's what you need
1:08:37to go for it i do think in terms of
1:08:41thinking about 20 years later and
1:08:43reading at twenty years later the one of
1:08:44the things that this book does i think
1:08:45quite well is portray a person who is
1:08:51suffering from a horrendous case of post
1:08:53traumatic stress disorder that Santos is
1:08:56a broken destroyed man in the in the
1:09:002060 timeframe and over the course of
1:09:03the book you see them the people the
1:09:05Jesuits trying to find a way anyway that
1:09:09some of them want to get information out
1:09:11of them and some of them just want to
1:09:12help him like move along and progress
1:09:14because he's clearly utterly destroyed
1:09:17he is a destroyed person and over the
1:09:19course of the book he does get better
1:09:21and it is slow and painful and he has a
1:09:24lot of stuff to work through
1:09:25and I really this time through i really
1:09:28appreciated that part of it that I think
1:09:29I didn't twenty years ago about how he
1:09:32has to come to terms with this awful
1:09:36thing that happened to him and he he
1:09:38he's sick and bed he throws up he has to
1:09:41take PS horrible headaches all of this
1:09:43stuff and I thought that was really well
1:09:46handled about his progression and how
1:09:48for the longest time he doesn't say
1:09:50anything about the braces they've
1:09:51created to help his hands that the fact
1:09:53that they hurt because he feels like he
1:09:54deserves that she deserves
1:09:56we'll finally one of the other priests
1:09:58realize you know look we can do better
1:09:59than that an amazing moment where he
1:10:00finally finally complains about how
1:10:02painful they are they realize how
1:10:03painful they are and they immediately
1:10:05sent for somebody and like within six
1:10:07months he has brand new ones that are
1:10:08much better and then don't cause him
1:10:10pain and that are more functional but
1:10:12for for a long time he doesn't talk
1:10:13about it because he figures like yeah it
1:10:15hurts a fine i deserve it
1:10:18yeah I guess life is pain yeah one thing
1:10:21that I will say on that side of things
1:10:24that did not work for me was we had all
1:10:27these characters in you know in the
1:10:29asteroid known rakaat who are very full
1:10:31of life and and I just I had trouble
1:10:34telling the priest apart i would I was
1:10:36forgetting a bunch of gray men in
1:10:39priestly outfits in italy in 2060 right
1:10:43yeah there's a guy isn't bad priest and
1:10:45the priest from Cleveland and yeah I
1:10:50maybe because it's the second time
1:10:52around I i had a little easier time with
1:10:54that certainly with the one who was
1:10:57antagonistic almost the entire way
1:10:59through the book versus the one or two
1:11:01that you know are brought because either
1:11:04they are skilled in psychology or
1:11:06caring to try and get back to help
1:11:09because you know they bring in one
1:11:11priest that became a priest because he
1:11:13knew amelia was a child and Emilio as a
1:11:15priest was a role model for this guy and
1:11:18then there's of course the the one who
1:11:19was apparently married a stockbroker and
1:11:21then you know he has a car crash the
1:11:23wife dies and he decides to become a
1:11:25priest and he took he's been like cannot
1:11:27keep track of like that brother Edward
1:11:29and yeah and we're just like
1:11:30interchangeable for me i can see damage
1:11:33characterization brother Edward now
1:11:37you're right they're sort of sober uh
1:11:39figures who are kind of battling with
1:11:41their own politics about this and I i'm
1:11:43not sure we needed mean they have a a
1:11:45Inquisitor kind of figure who is the the
1:11:49the guy who's the the ketamine priest
1:11:51who doesn't believe him and that was not
1:11:53that was like my least part of the whole
1:11:55thing was the the the guy who's like it
1:11:57doesn't believe anything and it goes
1:11:59back to the fact that I think it's
1:12:00ridiculous that they just assumed
1:12:02terrible behavior on centos is pardoned
1:12:05and had no even consideration that there
1:12:07were other stories to tell here but i
1:12:09agree a hundred percent that the the
1:12:11vibrancy of ricotta and that and and the
1:12:15whole mission there is really contrasts
1:12:18with this kind of emptiness maybe you
1:12:20know some of that is because because
1:12:22Santos is so broken but you're right
1:12:24those characters are not particularly
1:12:26notable I like the time-dilation thing I
1:12:31mean that is one of the science things
1:12:32that she used to great effect the fact
1:12:34that although Santos only only you know
1:12:37is a way for a couple of years in terms
1:12:38of his time
1:12:39yeah 40 years passes 22 get there in 20
1:12:42back because they're there they're
1:12:44traveling at half the speed of light
1:12:45essentially for the voyage agent I I
1:12:47thought that was good use of actual
1:12:49science and made the plot made the fact
1:12:52that he's coming back to a world he
1:12:54never somebody points out at one point
1:12:55very late in the book you've never asked
1:12:56what happened in the time that you work
1:12:58on and he says something like you know
1:13:01I've seen too much
1:13:03I don't care anymore her just like
1:13:05amazing but it's a good use of that site
1:13:07second rope and and the one thing we
1:13:10didn't mention as they send him like the
1:13:12UN people find them and they send them
1:13:13back by himself on ya like that
1:13:17definitely should not read through
1:13:19it's just like I think can anything
1:13:22worse happen
1:13:23he's gone through a whole this thing and
1:13:24now he has to spend months and months
1:13:26and months alone with his hands like
1:13:28infected and nearly dying on the way
1:13:31yeah to get back to an inquisition
1:13:33basically yeah people are very angry
1:13:35with him and a world that thinks he's an
1:13:37awful awful person and I like the moment
1:13:40where you know they've been sending all
1:13:41these scholarly papers to our thoughts
1:13:44heartbreakingly at at least you've
1:13:46publicly you know my work is living
1:13:48through my published scholarly papers
1:13:50and they're like what we didn't publish
1:13:51the decomposed that's not terrible like
1:13:54they learn they learned everything about
1:13:55these alien languages and they sent back
1:13:57all these papers that's what they spent
1:13:58their you're doing is writing up all
1:14:00these things not just the languages i
1:14:01mean they were sending back stuff on
1:14:03everything they were experts in yeah and
1:14:06if they buried the the Jesuits buried
1:14:08the whole thing it's just it's it yeah
1:14:10so heartbreaking
1:14:12oh well this is this is a this is a a
1:14:16first-contact experience that went
1:14:18really really wrong and yeah interesting
1:14:21story to tell
1:14:23interesting story but memorable enough
1:14:24that that I've been talking about it for
1:14:26the last 20 years and I know that when I
1:14:27mentioned it to other people who've read
1:14:29it they're like oh yeah right including
1:14:31Shannon and Scott's oh yeah and we
1:14:34should be so enthusiastically we've
1:14:35hoodwinked Erica in 20 my batting
1:14:41average for these book club episodes
1:14:42pretty low sorry sorry about that
1:14:45this one yeah yeah I i I'd like to tell
1:14:48you I i would have warned you off if I
1:14:49thought you wouldn't like this one but I
1:14:51i don't think i would have done that
1:14:54because I I think so highly of it so I'm
1:14:56sorry didn't mean had read eight any
1:14:58description of it whatsoever would have
1:15:00known if known you noticed it was simply
1:15:02that i went in cold and then just stuck
1:15:04with it
1:15:05yeah and i was explaining this book to
1:15:07maressa because i was like i told her oh
1:15:09you should read this is a really great
1:15:10book but i had read in 20 years and then
1:15:12I reread it and then I thought maybe
1:15:13risa it shouldn't read it
1:15:15exploiting the plots of her she's like
1:15:18that sounds like a book only you would
1:15:19like Scott and you know many people like
1:15:22this book but through maybe not you and
1:15:24Eric many people admire this book i mean
1:15:28i would say yeah i would say in my case
1:15:30having read through the second time I
1:15:32admire this book i love some of the
1:15:34characters i love a lot of it but it is
1:15:39a powerful read this for good or ill its
1:15:44power them migrate it won many awards
1:15:46when it was released yes and I i think
1:15:50it's very I think it's very well done
1:15:51although again I feel like the contrast
1:15:53between the whole book in the last two
1:15:55chapters is striking was like oh okay
1:15:59we're not doing that anymore but the
1:16:00stuff that the detail is is kind of
1:16:02amazing and the characters in the
1:16:04dialogue and it's all and she does some
1:16:07pretty good prognostication a few parts
1:16:09in terms of what life is going to be
1:16:11like just about to say that you have
1:16:132016 in this book is not too far off
1:16:16not so bad in theory a television
1:16:19adaptation is coming from a sec that's
1:16:23what they say although that would that
1:16:24was a that was a 2014 announcement so it
1:16:27may be in turn around just like the Brad
1:16:29Pitt optioning of it in 2006 although i
1:16:33think it would make much more sense as a
1:16:35leg we say about so many books that we
1:16:38read much more sense as a a TV limited
1:16:42series where you could get you need the
1:16:44length you need you need that length to
1:16:46tell this this kind of story because it
1:16:48means to build up so that the downfall
1:16:51is even more horrifying
1:16:53yeah well said yeah maybe that's right
1:16:57the basic structure of the story so you
1:16:59know it's a tragedy tragedy for sure i
1:17:01mean this is this is a guy spends his
1:17:04entire life looking for evidence of God
1:17:05and God finally starts to show it to him
1:17:08and goes yonk never liked you much
1:17:12that's right that's well that's you know
1:17:15in terms of the Bible right there are
1:17:17those there are their stories not to
1:17:19take it back to job but you know stories
1:17:21of people who was like well part of the
1:17:23test is maybe it's terrible for you and
1:17:26you still have to believe in me and
1:17:27that's just how that's the definition of
1:17:29faith right you keep believing even
1:17:30though it is difficult and that's the
1:17:33other amazing thing about this book for
1:17:35me is that you know there'd whatever
1:17:37your opinions of religion are like
1:17:39Jesuits in history actually did this
1:17:43kind of thing they did lessons on a boat
1:17:45and they cross the ocean they didn't
1:17:47know where they were going just to see
1:17:49what was out there and to hopefully you
1:17:51know turns people into followers of
1:17:53Christ but mostly enlist for the change
1:17:56what's the expanding knowledge was also
1:17:59a big part of it and that's you know
1:18:01crazy to me and a lot of them yet
1:18:03a lot of them would would end up dying
1:18:06horribly and not return as they would
1:18:08die or or having much like in this book
1:18:11horrible things happen to them and yet
1:18:13they they go back they recuperate and
1:18:15then they go back to the same places
1:18:16where these horrible things have
1:18:17happened to them
1:18:18yeah guess what horrible things happen
1:18:20to the mechanic yep yep
1:18:22yeah yeah absolutely it's a yeah it's
1:18:26it's a thought-provoking book it's one
1:18:28that I that I really appreciate I I my I
1:18:31think you could also something we didn't
1:18:32even talk on too much as if you believe
1:18:35this as these as these Jesuits do that
1:18:38there knowing God by visiting God's
1:18:43other children that's another horror of
1:18:46this book right the fact that this is a
1:18:47on this world this small group of
1:18:50creatures is preying upon this larger
1:18:53group of creatures it in a way that is
1:18:55fundamentally you would say a evil set
1:18:59up an evil organization here and so that
1:19:02I that kind of calls into question like
1:19:05it's not just why do bad things happen
1:19:06to the humans on this world but it's
1:19:08like why is this world awful to in a
1:19:12different way than ours so now there's
1:19:14so much here if you like to be doing if
1:19:17you want to be sad and depressed and see
1:19:19horrible things happen anyway
1:19:20check it out its parent told in a
1:19:23beautiful way and it is it is i think
1:19:26everybody now who has listened to this
1:19:27is a very good idea if they should read
1:19:30it or not I think Erica you should
1:19:34listen to this podcast before you read
1:19:36this book and find your TARDIS if only
1:19:39will set it back in time before we go
1:19:42I'm going to very quickly ask if there's
1:19:43anything else that you've read recently
1:19:45that you would like to mention to our
1:19:48listeners because that's a fun thing
1:19:49that we do Scott anything that you have
1:19:52read recently that's been very
1:19:53interesting too
1:19:55yes i have a spin spending some time
1:19:59reading some historical fiction which i
1:20:01will skip over but there are two scifi
1:20:03books that I've read as of late that I
1:20:05enjoyed one is called dark matter by
1:20:08Blake croch he wrote some TV series that
1:20:13i never watched wayward Pines i think
1:20:14yes
1:20:15yeah I or he wrote the books that it but
1:20:18based on whatever this book dark matter
1:20:21is about this physicist who basically
1:20:24figures out a way of traveling through
1:20:27the multiverse and unintended
1:20:30consequences happen it's interesting i
1:20:32read it in two days
1:20:34it's a an easy read and it is once you
1:20:37figure out oh it's a multiverse thing
1:20:39you think you know how it's going to end
1:20:41but it doesn't end the way you think it
1:20:42does which is always good and another
1:20:46kind of more sci-fi in space book that I
1:20:50read was dark run by Mike Brooks which
1:20:53is the first in a series which I didn't
1:20:54know when i started reading that was
1:20:56always annoying but it's fun another fun
1:21:00quick syfy read that i enjoyed and
1:21:02before you start reading it you should
1:21:04realize it's the first in a series at
1:21:06some darkness there you got dark dark I
1:21:09don't like alphabetically by title
1:21:11yeah I i'm just going through all the
1:21:13dark books now Erica something i'm under
1:21:15anything you're reading that you want to
1:21:17mention uh well i did recently read a
1:21:20book called damaged goods which was
1:21:22Russell T Davis's first foray into the
1:21:25world of dr. Kalam which I wasn't a huge
1:21:28fan of it if you're interested in that
1:21:29one very did an episode on that i'll say
1:21:32I liked it better than the sparrow are
1:21:33ok
1:21:34huh I also more for fun and actual
1:21:39recommendation i finally got around to
1:21:41reading the fourth and final book of the
1:21:44magic ex libris series by jesse hines
1:21:47called revisionary and it was aight i
1:21:50put it off because they did not want hit
1:21:52series to be done and i knew when i
1:21:53finish this last book which was the last
1:21:55book that I wasn't gonna have anymore
1:21:57but i finally got around to doing it and
1:21:59I i think that he he wrapped it up
1:22:01nicely somewhere in one of the books
1:22:04before this the world comes to the
1:22:06realization that there is actually magic
1:22:09up there and I think that he does a nice
1:22:11job of thinking through the possible
1:22:14ramifications of what would happen if if
1:22:16that were the case and you had magic on
1:22:18one side and technology and the other
1:22:20side and then you know the horribleness
1:22:22of people in politicians and all that
1:22:24kind of stuff and and the books overall
1:22:26kind of light and fun but he sort of
1:22:29doesn't pull punches with with what
1:22:31would happen if it's like that it goes
1:22:33to some dark places as well but still
1:22:35still manages to be escaping enough for
1:22:38me to do quite like it and and last I
1:22:41have been proofreading the next issue of
1:22:43uncanny magazine issue 12 there's one
1:22:45short story in there called not a
1:22:47miracle but a Marvel by tim pratt which
1:22:49I just loved it was a i want to say it
1:22:52was a twist on like a classic sort of
1:22:55fairytale fable sort of a thing but it
1:22:58was maybe a modern slant on it and I'm a
1:23:01sucker for those sorts of things so
1:23:02that'll that'll be out soon ish i'm not
1:23:05sure exactly when in relation to win
1:23:07this podcast drops Shannon anything you
1:23:10would like to mention well um I this is
1:23:14more in support of a foot then the
1:23:16incomparable but I've been plowing
1:23:19through carry Greenwoods friday Fisher
1:23:22mysteries this summer the basically take
1:23:26your detective she's a woman she's a
1:23:28flapper in Australia in the twenties and
1:23:31they have been a delight
1:23:33i'm looking forward to when we get
1:23:35around to talking about but that on a
1:23:38foot both her the novels and also
1:23:40started watching the the australian TV
1:23:44show based on them but that's been the
1:23:46majority of my reading this summer i am
1:23:49about to start
1:23:50NK jemisin with the fifth season because
1:23:54everyone's talking about the obelisk
1:23:56eight and i want to read that too
1:23:57so those are on my list alright that's a
1:24:02another book about flappers from
1:24:05Australia solving crimes whatever
1:24:08there's so many of those anyway uh
1:24:10listen whatever i read lately i read a
1:24:12couple of really fun
1:24:13non-fiction books that I want to mention
1:24:15one is by tom standage who's a writer
1:24:18an editor of The Economist formerly
1:24:20Glenn's editor at The Economist actually
1:24:22some cleansing their I a history of the
1:24:26world in six glasses which is a great
1:24:28book about it's a gloss on his the
1:24:32growth of human civilization through six
1:24:35different drinks and it's like beer and
1:24:38wine and spirits and coca-cola and
1:24:44coffee and tea and it's uh it's great
1:24:48and i also enjoyed mark for size book
1:24:51which was recommended to me by doing
1:24:52more in the entomological on which is
1:24:54just a silly series of their kind of
1:24:57like newspaper columns about ridiculous
1:24:59words in the English language and where
1:25:00they came from
1:25:01I loved it and I really enjoyed stiletto
1:25:04the sequel to the brook by Daniel
1:25:07O'Malley sounds good as the rock
1:25:08yes but it's good fun sequel problems
1:25:12this its private I missed I i missed the
1:25:14world of the rock i wish there was a new
1:25:16record book every year and not every
1:25:17five years or whatever but it was really
1:25:19a lot of fun and I'm glad that it's out
1:25:22now because it was a lot of fun i agree
1:25:25and uh let's see the yeah i'm looking
1:25:29forward to reading the obelisk eight but
1:25:31i haven't read it yet so I can't say and
1:25:33i'm rereading the dark tower for future
1:25:35incomparable podcast so i read that the
1:25:37gunslinger and the drawing of the three
1:25:38in the last couple of weeks to refresh
1:25:41my memory on the nose because i read
1:25:44those many years ago
1:25:45you'll have to catch up on those we have
1:25:47yeah we have reached the end thank you
1:25:50to my guests for being here and and
1:25:52traveling with me in a hollowed-out
1:25:53asteroid to visit I i hope the aliens
1:25:56are nice air can sign thank you four get
1:26:00doing the reading and not bailing out
1:26:02hey I i feel like i have have persevere
1:26:05yes that's the thing that I did the
1:26:08Jesuits would approve the book and
1:26:12another thank you
1:26:13always a pleasure and Scott McNulty
1:26:16thank you very much thank you Jason and
1:26:19thanks everybody out there for listening
1:26:21to this edition of the comfortable
1:26:22helpful
1:26:22hope we didn't test your faith a little
1:26:24too much huh
1:26:26and we will see
1:26:36[Music]