The Incomparable

185: A Three-Edged Sword


00:00:00   this episode of the uncomfortable is [TS]

00:00:03   brought to you by Squarespace the [TS]

00:00:05   all-in-one platform that makes it fast [TS]

00:00:07   and easy to create your own professional [TS]

00:00:09   website or online portfolio for a free [TS]

00:00:12   trial and ten percent off go to [TS]

00:00:14   squarespace.com and use offer code smell [TS]

00:00:17   the incomparable number 185 Morris 2014 [TS]

00:00:32   welcome back to the incomparable podcast [TS]

00:00:34   I'm your host Jason snail and when we [TS]

00:00:36   were coming up with the idea for this [TS]

00:00:37   podcast those many years ago i actually [TS]

00:00:40   have a tweet somebody suggested we do a [TS]

00:00:42   Babylon 5 episode my said absolutely [TS]

00:00:45   we're absolutely gonna do it turns out [TS]

00:00:47   we are going to do it before we hit [TS]

00:00:49   number 200 but yeah i took a while but [TS]

00:00:53   we ate it's finally happening i have [TS]

00:00:55   gathered together people i know who like [TS]

00:00:57   me watched all of and treasurer Babylon [TS]

00:01:01   5 the nineteen nineties era sci-fi [TS]

00:01:04   series written by J michael Straczynski [TS]

00:01:07   starring a large and rotating cast of [TS]

00:01:11   people telling an epic story that was [TS]

00:01:13   meant to go for five years except the [TS]

00:01:15   kind of crammed into four because they [TS]

00:01:17   were afraid they were going to cancelled [TS]

00:01:18   and then they didn't get cancelled so [TS]

00:01:19   they had to like fail [TS]

00:01:21   ok let's still some other stories now [TS]

00:01:22   but anyway I have a look back on the [TS]

00:01:24   series with great fondness it definitely [TS]

00:01:27   is of its time in some ways but in [TS]

00:01:29   watching some episodes back i was really [TS]

00:01:31   i really enjoyed it was reminded why i [TS]

00:01:33   love it so much so we're gonna talk [TS]

00:01:35   about Babylon 5 and joining me to talk [TS]

00:01:37   here is my own little league of [TS]

00:01:40   non-aligned worlds yeah there's a [TS]

00:01:42   reference area not kohai the war the [TS]

00:01:46   humans [TS]

00:01:47   I think knew they were doomed where [TS]

00:01:49   another race with surrender to despair [TS]

00:01:51   the humans fought back with greatest [TS]

00:01:53   think they made them in body fight for [TS]

00:01:55   every inch of space in my life I've [TS]

00:01:58   never seen anything like it they would [TS]

00:02:00   weep they would pray they would say [TS]

00:02:02   goodbye to the left ones and then throw [TS]

00:02:04   themselves without fear or hesitation at [TS]

00:02:07   the very face of death itself never said [TS]

00:02:10   anything [TS]

00:02:10   hi Jason behind you got everybody else [TS]

00:02:14   got a soliloquy planned [TS]

00:02:15   yes Erika and sign I heard your voice [TS]

00:02:20   there hello hello [TS]

00:02:21   I was just gonna say i am not the one I [TS]

00:02:24   don't like I did not know that uh that [TS]

00:02:29   uh that when when we met and I recruited [TS]

00:02:32   you for this podcast that you were about [TS]

00:02:33   15 you were so this is a a unexpected [TS]

00:02:36   bonus area so that's the real that all [TS]

00:02:41   of us I think chips other things out [TS]

00:02:43   there you've heard him on many doctor [TS]

00:02:46   who related topics especially I bring [TS]

00:02:47   him in he's my doctor who ringer but [TS]

00:02:49   turns out that chip and Erica and I [TS]

00:02:53   don't know others are doing a Babylon 5 [TS]

00:02:55   podcast that should be coming out soon [TS]

00:02:57   anyway we'll get to that chip [TS]

00:02:59   hello boom shaka-laka-laka boom [TS]

00:03:00   shaka-laka-laka oh man that was not my [TS]

00:03:04   favorite moment but anyway yes I get [TS]

00:03:06   references knowledge references miloge [TS]

00:03:09   ason it's good to have you here and mr. [TS]

00:03:13   garden berg it's a michael greenberg [TS]

00:03:15   he's back we talk about wrath of khan [TS]

00:03:17   with him a while ago and he was always [TS]

00:03:19   on my Babylon 5 list we finally made it [TS]

00:03:22   hello in tools any Jason and I don't [TS]

00:03:27   like I will I don't want to say the [TS]

00:03:28   incomparable is my second favorite thing [TS]

00:03:31   in the image Cooper [TS]

00:03:34   oh and uh and my my my next guest is [TS]

00:03:38   wait a second [TS]

00:03:39   sorry there are known next guesses math [TS]

00:03:42   not satra skill that was my reference [TS]

00:03:47   you see because I didn't have a neutral [TS]

00:03:49   to do either way it is very bad for [TS]

00:03:52   zarus so let me it's ok Jason anybody [TS]

00:03:56   after Andy where we were all gasping for [TS]

00:03:58   air after that only not pretty much [TS]

00:04:00   really yeah yeah you know I was either [TS]

00:04:03   that or the member or the or the [TS]

00:04:05   dysentery lightbulb joke and I decided [TS]

00:04:07   to go for both of them [TS]

00:04:08   you know you know what were we watched [TS]

00:04:12   four episodes I'm and I'm going to tell [TS]

00:04:14   you what they were and we always just [TS]

00:04:15   obviously we've seen all of them maybe [TS]

00:04:18   even multiple times but we for as a [TS]

00:04:20   refresher I think we all had our service [TS]

00:04:21   i meant to watch four episodes 1-4 me to [TS]

00:04:24   the first four seasons just to remind [TS]

00:04:26   ourselves a little bit and be fresh for [TS]

00:04:27   this i wanted to mention those since you [TS]

00:04:29   mentioned this the dynamic especially [TS]

00:04:32   between londo and shekhar and we will [TS]

00:04:34   we'll get into the characters but um [TS]

00:04:35   there's a there's a reference that the [TS]

00:04:38   Babylon 5 reference that my family that [TS]

00:04:40   in my house still gets made is from the [TS]

00:04:44   episode where the condo in shikahr [TS]

00:04:47   trapped in the elevator together [TS]

00:04:49   mondo mondo is just shouting and he's [TS]

00:04:52   like can anyone hear me into courses for [TS]

00:04:55   you [TS]

00:04:56   we still do that I thought I thought [TS]

00:04:59   you're talking about all that beautiful [TS]

00:05:00   last line with her heard the car like [TS]

00:05:03   finally realizes that his plan to kill [TS]

00:05:05   that doesn't allow Londo to die like [TS]

00:05:08   just didn't didn't work and I excuse me [TS]

00:05:11   a longer than I hate my life or do I I [TS]

00:05:18   thought you're gonna go with so many [TS]

00:05:19   fishes are no fish left in the seed [TS]

00:05:21   longer when you come on my spoon is [TS]

00:05:25   getting kind of serious its roots about [TS]

00:05:28   these little well-done better fresh [TS]

00:05:31   that's true so Babylon 5 [TS]

00:05:34   I we're like many characters big [TS]

00:05:36   storylines came out in the the mid to [TS]

00:05:39   late nineties it was a new age no that's [TS]

00:05:45   not what i was going to say so many [TS]

00:05:46   references here to pack and we watched [TS]

00:05:48   so just for the record we watched [TS]

00:05:50   midnight on the firing line from season [TS]

00:05:53   one in the shadows are doing from season [TS]

00:05:55   2 interludes and examinations from [TS]

00:05:57   season three and no surrender no retreat [TS]

00:05:58   from season four will talk about them [TS]

00:06:00   but we are going to do a non-spoiler [TS]

00:06:02   section where we talk about why we like [TS]

00:06:03   Babylon 5 without getting into so many [TS]

00:06:06   details about where the show goes in [TS]

00:06:08   terms of its story and and so don't if [TS]

00:06:12   you're thinking about all the sounds [TS]

00:06:14   interesting maybe i'll watch the show [TS]

00:06:15   sometime stick around at least until the [TS]

00:06:17   spoiler horn i ask you and um I don't [TS]

00:06:20   know where what do you guys think we [TS]

00:06:21   should begin should we start with [TS]

00:06:22   characters I mean that that's one of the [TS]

00:06:24   things that I think struck me in [TS]

00:06:25   watching these four episodes back is it [TS]

00:06:29   was not just all i remember that [TS]

00:06:31   storyline was not interesting but it's [TS]

00:06:33   like you know I I immediately start [TS]

00:06:36   thought oh londo and shekhar and and and [TS]

00:06:41   john sheridan and delenn and veer who is [TS]

00:06:45   obviously a windows 8 who is played for [TS]

00:06:50   laughs [TS]

00:06:51   until you realize he's actually quite a [TS]

00:06:54   great character and not just a joke at [TS]

00:06:56   all and so many other mr. Garibaldi and [TS]

00:07:01   security chief Zach and dr. Franklin and [TS]

00:07:05   a lot just and ivana of course what a [TS]

00:07:07   crazy character Susan fond of the second [TS]

00:07:10   command and I so I think we should start [TS]

00:07:13   there and just you know if it about [TS]

00:07:15   these characters because i think in in [TS]

00:07:17   hindsight the story arc of Babylon 5 [TS]

00:07:19   which was at its time fairly [TS]

00:07:20   groundbreaking to do tell the story over [TS]

00:07:22   the course of a lot a long time you got [TS]

00:07:24   a lot of attention but you know you come [TS]

00:07:27   may become for the story arc but you [TS]

00:07:28   gotta stay for the characters and the [TS]

00:07:30   characters especially that long ago in [TS]

00:07:32   your car pairing of the two ambassadors [TS]

00:07:34   from you know lifelong enemy the alien [TS]

00:07:38   races [TS]

00:07:39   that's what stuck with me and that was [TS]

00:07:41   what felt like home when I watch these [TS]

00:07:42   episodes back especially compared where [TS]

00:07:45   they wind up to where they start off I [TS]

00:07:48   have to I have to admit that I toilet [TS]

00:07:50   full no no my candidacy of a dick i'm [TS]

00:07:53   simply selling the point as a bullet [TS]

00:07:56   point feature on the side of the body's [TS]

00:07:57   got excellent is that is that characters [TS]

00:08:00   evolve you don't have simply that there [TS]

00:08:02   was nobody whispering into michael [TS]

00:08:04   Straczynski is here now remember we [TS]

00:08:06   don't know in what order people are [TS]

00:08:07   gonna see these we have to reset [TS]

00:08:09   everything and if your characters are [TS]

00:08:11   typical well they don't have to change [TS]

00:08:12   in personality or well your [TS]

00:08:14   understanding of who they are and i have [TS]

00:08:16   to admit that I think that one of the [TS]

00:08:18   most of the brilliant things about the [TS]

00:08:20   show was that that I hated the the pilot [TS]

00:08:23   because each of these bitches characters [TS]

00:08:26   is sort of the science-fiction archetype [TS]

00:08:28   and of course i had to do pre pre you [TS]

00:08:30   know internet podcast i had my oh this [TS]

00:08:33   is so late [TS]

00:08:34   oh good so you got the Vulcans who are [TS]

00:08:36   like all like peaceful and whatnot and [TS]

00:08:38   then you got the kid the characters that [TS]

00:08:40   are clear that you've gotten are clearly [TS]

00:08:42   the Klingons and then ok great another [TS]

00:08:44   black border race and then the open then [TS]

00:08:48   not knowing until like long long after [TS]

00:08:51   that that no this is wherever this he [TS]

00:08:54   started I think he populated this pilot [TS]

00:08:56   with art with that those kind of tropes [TS]

00:08:58   so that he would have room to move them [TS]

00:09:00   around on the chessboard later on and so [TS]

00:09:02   it wasn't until I think was you Jason [TS]

00:09:04   who was the the strongest voice saying [TS]

00:09:07   no dude you had season 2i know what [TS]

00:09:10   you're talking about it's much better [TS]

00:09:11   now that got me absolutely hooked on in [TS]

00:09:15   season two so it's that evolution that [TS]

00:09:17   you know even even when we were i was [TS]

00:09:19   watching like a half-dozen or dozen [TS]

00:09:21   episodes over the past week or so to see [TS]

00:09:23   that I see the pilot then I see season 2 [TS]

00:09:26   season 3 season 4 and just saying that [TS]

00:09:28   all man if I could tell this character [TS]

00:09:31   in season two [TS]

00:09:32   honey you have no idea what's happening [TS]

00:09:34   what's gonna happen to you next year [TS]

00:09:35   how interesting it is that you felt that [TS]

00:09:37   way right now so that that's what the [TS]

00:09:38   signature a great feature of the shows [TS]

00:09:41   for me [TS]

00:09:42   in fact it's it's very clear from the [TS]

00:09:44   first season and the way that story goes [TS]

00:09:47   that he and he set justice since he has [TS]

00:09:51   set these characters on a path for them [TS]

00:09:53   to be everything that they didn't expect [TS]

00:09:55   to be and that we didn't expect them to [TS]

00:09:58   be like there's no no character goes [TS]

00:10:00   especially the alien characters that we [TS]

00:10:02   expect to be these archetypes but even [TS]

00:10:04   humans they all have a story arc and [TS]

00:10:06   they all are leading somewhere that is [TS]

00:10:08   unexpected that it that isn't a counter [TS]

00:10:11   to all of the expectations from your [TS]

00:10:14   usual sci-fi kind of trope absolutely [TS]

00:10:16   and on top of that the get a lot of this [TS]

00:10:20   character development comes from pitting [TS]

00:10:21   the characters against each other [TS]

00:10:24   it's not it's not a star trek scenario [TS]

00:10:26   where the a single monolithic cast [TS]

00:10:29   encounters the guest stars of the [TS]

00:10:31   weekend if the characters are changed [TS]

00:10:34   afterward [TS]

00:10:35   that's an unexpected bonus because it's [TS]

00:10:37   episodic television but jakar vs Londo [TS]

00:10:41   the cost versus well costumers and [TS]

00:10:48   whatever agenda it is that he is playing [TS]

00:10:49   out the secret villains who show up [TS]

00:10:52   later on everything [TS]

00:10:54   it's it's it's very our care heavy [TS]

00:10:57   storytelling and you might and it's very [TS]

00:11:00   plots intricate is it heavily plotted [TS]

00:11:03   story but the plot is basically [TS]

00:11:06   character a once this character be with [TS]

00:11:09   is willing to stop character a what [TS]

00:11:11   happens next and that's the thing that [TS]

00:11:13   just makes me eat up this show with a [TS]

00:11:16   spoon [TS]

00:11:17   it's the evolution of these characters [TS]

00:11:18   as they evolve over the four years [TS]

00:11:21   they're not the same people we met early [TS]

00:11:24   on or or who we thought we met early on [TS]

00:11:27   you know londo and in some of the first [TS]

00:11:30   episodes comes across as just sort of a [TS]

00:11:32   buffoon you know who's going to take him [TS]

00:11:35   very very seriously [TS]

00:11:38   Sinclair doesn't necessarily come off [TS]

00:11:40   and he's clearly no Captain Picard or [TS]

00:11:43   you know everyone changes on and their [TS]

00:11:48   relationships change i'm close friends [TS]

00:11:50   are suddenly not you know not so close [TS]

00:11:52   by the end of the park and you have [TS]

00:11:57   tremendous consistency through the story [TS]

00:11:59   which again is a no person driving crazy [TS]

00:12:02   the inconsistencies are going back and [TS]

00:12:05   watching this I kind of realized [TS]

00:12:07   watching this episode again just start [TS]

00:12:08   in that on the firing line [TS]

00:12:10   wow there's things here that totally [TS]

00:12:13   don't make any sense you would notice [TS]

00:12:14   until season to season three yeah and [TS]

00:12:18   that was all flat-out just subtle little [TS]

00:12:20   things that you know when you hit you go [TS]

00:12:23   oh yeah I remember that from you know [TS]

00:12:24   season 1 episode 4 and now that [TS]

00:12:28   reference makes particular sense and he [TS]

00:12:31   kept doing that consistently he wasn't [TS]

00:12:34   afraid to shuffle the deck from time to [TS]

00:12:35   time he wasn't afraid to throw a [TS]

00:12:38   surprise or two at us from time to time [TS]

00:12:40   and I think even the way they resolved [TS]

00:12:44   it you know it kind of got to the point [TS]

00:12:45   where it's sort of like okay I get this [TS]

00:12:47   you know it's this is the this is like [TS]

00:12:49   okay we've seen this before you know [TS]

00:12:50   it's good versus evil and then we get to [TS]

00:12:52   a point like well what was it really [TS]

00:12:56   about before we get too far off of [TS]

00:12:59   characters i just want to jump [TS]

00:13:01   I can say that the consistency of of [TS]

00:13:04   character i think also comes through its [TS]

00:13:07   they had as you all said amazing arcs [TS]

00:13:10   just within themselves that the [TS]

00:13:11   characters definitely developed but i [TS]

00:13:14   recently went through and did an entire [TS]

00:13:16   rewatch of the whole five years and then [TS]

00:13:19   jumped back to watch the first episode [TS]

00:13:21   midnight on the firing line for this and [TS]

00:13:24   I was really struck by how the [TS]

00:13:27   characters are still the same people [TS]

00:13:31   Londo in the first episode is completely [TS]

00:13:33   different from the londo and the last [TS]

00:13:34   episode he really has a very big change [TS]

00:13:38   to his personality but it's a natural [TS]

00:13:40   development it's not like the writer [TS]

00:13:43   came in and very clinically changed the [TS]

00:13:45   character to suit the narrative and [TS]

00:13:47   called a character development which you [TS]

00:13:48   sometimes see this you look at that [TS]

00:13:50   Lando and you can going back it was like [TS]

00:13:52   oh wow this is young Londo this is this [TS]

00:13:55   is him as a kid not really a kid but [TS]

00:13:57   before he experienced everything is [TS]

00:13:59   there's a scene in I is it no surrender [TS]

00:14:03   no retreat where we're lond assisted to [TS]

00:14:05   jakar something by him [TS]

00:14:08   it's been a bad year for the difficult [TS]

00:14:10   here and you can see these four years [TS]

00:14:11   have been you know momentous and has its [TS]

00:14:15   changed everybody and there's an [TS]

00:14:17   acknowledgement of that and when you [TS]

00:14:18   look back to the beginning you can see [TS]

00:14:20   it that the these these characters [TS]

00:14:22   change as a result of the the what [TS]

00:14:25   happens to them in the story which is [TS]

00:14:26   you know that's how it's supposed to be [TS]

00:14:28   and that is how it is with a lot of TV [TS]

00:14:30   now but in the day you know the [TS]

00:14:32   benchmark in it when Babylon 5 came on [TS]

00:14:34   the air with Star Trek The Next [TS]

00:14:35   Generation essentially the only show [TS]

00:14:39   that was that had been on for any length [TS]

00:14:41   of time it was a sci-fi show and it was [TS]

00:14:43   all standalone episodes as were most [TS]

00:14:45   mainstream dramas at this time so to [TS]

00:14:47   tell this story and and tell it over [TS]

00:14:50   time and let those characters grow and [TS]

00:14:51   change and not reset every week was [TS]

00:14:54   pretty dramatic but even Nick mark shows [TS]

00:14:56   like lost great the characters kinda for [TS]

00:14:59   the most part don't change least they [TS]

00:15:00   didn't to me they were all more or less [TS]

00:15:02   the same they go through some you know [TS]

00:15:04   evolution here you have characters [TS]

00:15:05   really evolved on and sometimes changing [TS]

00:15:09   and changing again because that's what [TS]

00:15:11   we all do like as they're reacting to [TS]

00:15:12   the circumstances that [TS]

00:15:14   constantly changing around them and that [TS]

00:15:18   was powerful [TS]

00:15:20   it's even more than that i'd like to see [TS]

00:15:21   what you and Jason are saying and raise [TS]

00:15:24   it [TS]

00:15:24   it's not just about what's happening to [TS]

00:15:25   the characters but it's about the [TS]

00:15:27   choices that the characters make our [TS]

00:15:30   Londo in particular are in in in some [TS]

00:15:32   respects he is his story is possibly the [TS]

00:15:36   axis around which the whole the whole [TS]

00:15:39   series revolves but most of the [TS]

00:15:41   characters if not all of them something [TS]

00:15:44   happens and they react to it and they [TS]

00:15:46   make a decision and that's one of the [TS]

00:15:48   things that Stravinsky seem to talk up a [TS]

00:15:52   lot when he was speaking letting fancy [TS]

00:15:55   behind the curtain about what he was [TS]

00:15:56   trying to do is that these characters [TS]

00:15:59   these characters change as a result of [TS]

00:16:01   the decisions the good ones and the bad [TS]

00:16:03   ones that they make and most of the [TS]

00:16:06   characters are allowed to make some [TS]

00:16:07   pretty horrible decisions not breaking [TS]

00:16:08   bad level decision its but it's that [TS]

00:16:11   they they are allowed to make some [TS]

00:16:13   mistakes and after it clean up their [TS]

00:16:15   messes or be manipulated into making [TS]

00:16:17   decisions which happens quite a lot but [TS]

00:16:20   that's that's a signature for me for [TS]

00:16:22   four great storytelling where don't just [TS]

00:16:25   let a character walk away from something [TS]

00:16:26   they did because that's going to change [TS]

00:16:28   who that's going to change their [TS]

00:16:29   behavior is going to change the behavior [TS]

00:16:31   of people around them and it's not [TS]

00:16:32   exclusive to Babylon 5 I still I still [TS]

00:16:34   hold up the shield is probably the [TS]

00:16:36   single greatest continuous drama on [TS]

00:16:40   television and imagine the magical thing [TS]

00:16:43   about that show is that it's all about [TS]

00:16:45   the pilot episode it everything that [TS]

00:16:47   happens over seven seasons are [TS]

00:16:49   repercussions from the first what [TS]

00:16:51   happens in the first episode and Babylon [TS]

00:16:54   5 also plugs into that same mojo [TS]

00:16:56   yeah it's it's a I mean I don't want to [TS]

00:16:59   overstate it but because Babylon 5 was [TS]

00:17:01   not the first add a lot of this stuff [TS]

00:17:03   but it was one of the first and you know [TS]

00:17:06   how Joe Straczynski uh took this story [TS]

00:17:09   that was a back it was a pilot a TV [TS]

00:17:11   movie with no serious commitment on a [TS]

00:17:14   network that wasn't a network and yet [TS]

00:17:17   had the fortitude to say i'm going to [TS]

00:17:18   tell a five-year story and the fact that [TS]

00:17:20   he actually did get to tell five your [TS]

00:17:22   story [TS]

00:17:22   it's kind of amazing but he'll that was [TS]

00:17:25   there from the beginning on syndicated [TS]

00:17:27   television [TS]

00:17:28   no less right almost every episode every [TS]

00:17:30   I just meant everything in every just [TS]

00:17:33   about every episode was yeah totally [TS]

00:17:35   written by him in fact was some point [TS]

00:17:37   through the things that red was there [TS]

00:17:39   was a couple of episodes but there [TS]

00:17:40   appear to be ad-libs and someone asked [TS]

00:17:43   him you know like one of those Adam goes [TS]

00:17:44   there's no ad-libbing on my show every [TS]

00:17:47   word is as i wrote it was meant to be [TS]

00:17:50   there you know yeah we do not tolerate a [TS]

00:17:53   dilemma in the last three years I think [TS]

00:17:54   there was one episode he didn't write [TS]

00:17:56   which was the neil game in neil gaiman [TS]

00:17:57   episode in the fifth year before before [TS]

00:18:00   Neil Gaiman get started on as a doctor [TS]

00:18:02   who writer he guest-starred as a Babylon [TS]

00:18:03   5 writer in the fifth season is sort of [TS]

00:18:05   questionable economical or in my head [TS]

00:18:10   it's sort of like to watch something in [TS]

00:18:11   my mind it ended after four seasons is [TS]

00:18:13   there was there a word and fandom for [TS]

00:18:15   like the the times where there's an [TS]

00:18:18   episode or a whole season where we all [TS]

00:18:20   just decided well that was a dream [TS]

00:18:21   sequence that didn't actually happen if [TS]

00:18:23   there is no phantom in the entire world [TS]

00:18:25   where everybody agrees on anything it's [TS]

00:18:27   the Phantom at the Phantom Menace I [TS]

00:18:29   think we can all agree never took place [TS]

00:18:31   nope i like the Phantom minutes okay [TS]

00:18:33   there you go it's your personal cannon [TS]

00:18:35   that uh that that you know I like to [TS]

00:18:37   believe the buffy the vampire slayer [TS]

00:18:38   ended after five years and then she had [TS]

00:18:42   a dream and she was dying of being a [TS]

00:18:44   musical and then that was being but that [TS]

00:18:46   is not the case they did make seven [TS]

00:18:48   seasons government [TS]

00:18:49   this isn't about the opposite i wanted [TS]

00:18:50   to say I'm we should talk a while we're [TS]

00:18:54   still being general and not blowing [TS]

00:18:55   spoiler horn one of the notable things [TS]

00:18:57   about Babylon 5 is it was it was the [TS]

00:18:59   first I show to make a great use of CGI [TS]

00:19:02   which we now think of as sort of like [TS]

00:19:05   everything use CGI even all the non [TS]

00:19:08   sci-fi shows you CGI to do compositing [TS]

00:19:10   and things but Babylon 5 was the first [TS]

00:19:13   space show where the spaceships were all [TS]

00:19:15   or at least the first mainstream show [TS]

00:19:18   that with spaceships role models [TS]

00:19:19   everything is done in a computer at [TS]

00:19:21   their computer models the 3d models star [TS]

00:19:23   trek used the old school way of doing [TS]

00:19:25   this week it was it was a few years [TS]

00:19:27   after jurassic park but on a TV budget a [TS]

00:19:29   a very small looking at some of those [TS]

00:19:31   sets a small TV budget to do what they [TS]

00:19:35   did with their graphics and over the [TS]

00:19:37   course of time and kept getting better [TS]

00:19:38   when they started it was like a light [TS]

00:19:40   wave running [TS]

00:19:41   on anamika but by the time I remember I [TS]

00:19:45   remember seeing a scene and being blown [TS]

00:19:48   away by it and it actually is in no [TS]

00:19:50   surrender no retreat there's a scene [TS]

00:19:52   where Sharon standing at the at the [TS]

00:19:54   front of the bridge of a spaceship and [TS]

00:19:56   the and out the windows you can see the [TS]

00:19:58   space battle is going on in the camera [TS]

00:20:00   is not locked down and it's moving [TS]

00:20:02   around and panning and the space battle [TS]

00:20:05   moves with it and there's perspective [TS]

00:20:07   change and I remember seeing that gonna [TS]

00:20:08   know how no no how can that be [TS]

00:20:11   and because they did not commit that day [TS]

00:20:13   they didn't do that more guys with after [TS]

00:20:17   effects on max because i actually went [TS]

00:20:19   and saw them do this doing that frame by [TS]

00:20:22   frame and now you know that happens on [TS]

00:20:24   every TV show but back then that was [TS]

00:20:26   like the first time you saw stuff like [TS]

00:20:28   that on TV and so that's an interesting [TS]

00:20:30   thing about this show too is that some [TS]

00:20:31   of the cgi looks really dated now but I [TS]

00:20:34   mean by the time deep space nine got off [TS]

00:20:36   the air [TS]

00:20:37   Star Trek was using CGI for almost [TS]

00:20:39   everything that was the big debate you [TS]

00:20:40   know among the geeks you know models [TS]

00:20:42   first CD and now and look at the [TS]

00:20:44   episodes and you go you know modern CJ [TS]

00:20:47   you can go out that looks real now you [TS]

00:20:49   look at Babylon 5 no that's pretty good [TS]

00:20:51   CGI it's a video game looks like a video [TS]

00:20:54   right yeah it's it's not on par with you [TS]

00:20:56   know an iphone graphic he says yeah the [TS]

00:20:59   cgi was actually what kept me from [TS]

00:21:01   getting into the show for as long as I [TS]

00:21:04   sort of held out that the way I came to [TS]

00:21:06   Babylon 5 was summer in the second or [TS]

00:21:09   third season i think it was and we had [TS]

00:21:12   deep space nine night I was in college [TS]

00:21:13   and I would go to my our my friends Mac [TS]

00:21:15   suggest dorm room and we would watch [TS]

00:21:17   deep space nine every Sunday think of [TS]

00:21:19   sunday and there was this other show on [TS]

00:21:21   before it called Babylon 5 and we would [TS]

00:21:23   always catch the end of it the last [TS]

00:21:24   people you know they put back-to-back [TS]

00:21:26   shade and although we cannot guarantee [TS]

00:21:30   program so many we catch a little bit [TS]

00:21:32   and we will be like what is this [TS]

00:21:33   ridiculous show look at those stupid [TS]

00:21:35   looking ships that we made fun of it and [TS]

00:21:38   then as time went on i would get there [TS]

00:21:40   earlier and earlier and we would catch [TS]

00:21:41   more of this other show and suddenly [TS]

00:21:44   realize like actually this just really [TS]

00:21:46   good and then after a few more weeks of [TS]

00:21:49   that deep space nine night became [TS]

00:21:50   Babylon 5 night and we stopped watching [TS]

00:21:52   ds9 [TS]

00:21:53   kid you not that that was that was that [TS]

00:21:59   was another reason why was Babylon 5 was [TS]

00:22:02   so much more exciting than any star trek [TS]

00:22:04   series because only in retrospect after [TS]

00:22:06   seeing a couple seasons about 15 did you [TS]

00:22:08   realize that like I think the reason why [TS]

00:22:10   i like the enterprise and Starfleet were [TS]

00:22:12   so big on like we we must say you click [TS]

00:22:15   on high commander we must settle this [TS]

00:22:18   dramatically because we cannot afford to [TS]

00:22:20   animate separates battled just keep your [TS]

00:22:23   ship exactly where it is don't move and [TS]

00:22:26   just keeping the viewscreen whereas this [TS]

00:22:28   Babylon 5 you can actually have well [TS]

00:22:30   let's see there are multiple alien races [TS]

00:22:32   i bet each one of them would have a [TS]

00:22:33   different style ship and Babylon 5 like [TS]

00:22:36   the first one that made me realize you [TS]

00:22:37   can't wait a minute how come we never [TS]

00:22:39   seen since the hum Starfleet doesn't [TS]

00:22:41   have a fighter ships anything with you [TS]

00:22:44   never send it like it's like you never [TS]

00:22:45   have like one of those dogfights like we [TS]

00:22:47   enjoyed in Star Wars and every every [TS]

00:22:49   series before that not only that but its [TS]

00:22:52   star flee all ships I had to fly on a [TS]

00:22:55   single right you know that that you yet [TS]

00:22:59   you have starch you have star ships [TS]

00:23:01   approaching each other they're the same [TS]

00:23:03   angle and all the other stuff meanwhile [TS]

00:23:04   Babylon 5 you have ships that are [TS]

00:23:07   actually respecting the laws of physics [TS]

00:23:09   the star Furies that were introduced in [TS]

00:23:11   that first episode midnight on the [TS]

00:23:13   firing line [TS]

00:23:14   yeah the animations a little primitive [TS]

00:23:15   by today's standards but you see them [TS]

00:23:17   flipping around and flying backwards [TS]

00:23:20   using their own inertia to take out [TS]

00:23:22   other ships and things like that it's it [TS]

00:23:24   and I don't wanna I don't want to turn [TS]

00:23:27   this into a star trek vs Babylon 5 [TS]

00:23:28   things because i am i'm a big star trek [TS]

00:23:30   fan and I grew up on the original series [TS]

00:23:33   i love the next generation and I like [TS]

00:23:34   deep space 9 [TS]

00:23:35   i I don't I think there's a the fans [TS]

00:23:38   like to fight about things you know [TS]

00:23:39   words but yeah very big shock also known [TS]

00:23:42   as having opinions Jason can't we all [TS]

00:23:44   just get along [TS]

00:23:46   there are just so different yeah they're [TS]

00:23:48   just so different shows you can't really [TS]

00:23:49   compare and that was my point exactly [TS]

00:23:51   which is what i like what i loved about [TS]

00:23:53   Babylon 5 was all the ways that it [TS]

00:23:55   wasn't like Star Trek and that doesn't [TS]

00:23:56   mean that I didn't like Star Trek but I [TS]

00:23:58   what I like about Babylon 5 is it it [TS]

00:24:00   pushed a lot of buttons that Star Trek [TS]

00:24:01   didn't things that I remember from [TS]

00:24:03   reading lots of sci-fi novels as a kid [TS]

00:24:06   as a teenager that [TS]

00:24:07   weren't things I saw in Star Trek [TS]

00:24:08   because Star Trek was the way that it [TS]

00:24:10   had been set up in the sixties by Gene [TS]

00:24:12   Roddenberry was gonna be that in Babylon [TS]

00:24:15   I think purposefully because joseph [TS]

00:24:17   kosinski also a giant star trek fan was [TS]

00:24:19   trying to do stuff that Star Trek [TS]

00:24:21   couldn't he knew he was gonna be you [TS]

00:24:23   know an alternative to star trek he [TS]

00:24:26   didn't want to be star trek and he he [TS]

00:24:27   got tired of getting compared to and I [TS]

00:24:29   think so I you can like you can like [TS]

00:24:31   them both but the reason I like b5 has a [TS]

00:24:33   lot more to do with all the ways that [TS]

00:24:35   it's not Star Trek rather than it being [TS]

00:24:37   like which one is the better Star Trek [TS]

00:24:39   Deep Space nine or Babylon 5 because [TS]

00:24:40   it's a completely false comparison time [TS]

00:24:43   for a sponsor break i want to tell you [TS]

00:24:44   guys about New Relic new relic is [TS]

00:24:46   software analytics that helps make sense [TS]

00:24:49   of billions of metrics across millions [TS]

00:24:51   of applications all in real time now [TS]

00:24:54   it's 2014 one thing people are really [TS]

00:24:57   focused on this year [TS]

00:24:58   seamless application performance across [TS]

00:25:00   multiple platforms on all of their [TS]

00:25:02   devices it sounds simple but making an [TS]

00:25:05   appt work consistently well on different [TS]

00:25:07   devices with different operating systems [TS]

00:25:09   running different types of software is [TS]

00:25:11   super complex now it back in the old [TS]

00:25:13   days like 2007 when the iphone came out [TS]

00:25:15   it was basically impossible for app [TS]

00:25:17   developers to know how the apps are [TS]

00:25:19   performing once they got shipped you you [TS]

00:25:21   know spend all your time doing internal [TS]

00:25:23   bug hunts he cross your fingers hope for [TS]

00:25:25   the best and then you sit around [TS]

00:25:27   monitoring social media and the app [TS]

00:25:29   store reviews and hope that your app [TS]

00:25:31   doesn't get terrible reviews because [TS]

00:25:32   there's a bug that you didn't know until [TS]

00:25:34   it was too late [TS]

00:25:35   those days are over with tools like New [TS]

00:25:38   Relic you can track your application [TS]

00:25:40   performance down to the end user level [TS]

00:25:42   in real time you can spot the problems [TS]

00:25:45   and find the bugs and fix your code [TS]

00:25:48   before the users even notice something [TS]

00:25:50   is wrong [TS]

00:25:51   that is the power of the real-time [TS]

00:25:53   information of New Relic so if you're an [TS]

00:25:55   app developer or web developer you owe [TS]

00:25:57   it to yourself to go check out new relic [TS]

00:26:00   visit New Relic dot-com / and comparable [TS]

00:26:04   to learn more and use the offer code [TS]

00:26:05   incomparable to take advantage of the [TS]

00:26:07   special 30-day extended free pro trial [TS]

00:26:11   available just for listening to the [TS]

00:26:13   incomparable that's New Relic calm / [TS]

00:26:16   incomparable and thanks to New Relic for [TS]

00:26:18   sponsoring the incomparable the epic [TS]

00:26:20   so that I was actually watching it was [TS]

00:26:22   actually and a Babylon 5 that was [TS]

00:26:24   watching that ended just as you are [TS]

00:26:25   starting guess we're starting the show [TS]

00:26:27   was intersections in real-time and i [TS]

00:26:31   would note no snow spoilers of that this [TS]

00:26:33   isn't a spoil everything but both both [TS]

00:26:36   Babylon 5 and and Star Trek next [TS]

00:26:39   generation had the episode in which a [TS]

00:26:41   high-profile character is interrogated [TS]

00:26:43   for the entire yes and I think that the [TS]

00:26:46   reason that it i think that that that [TS]

00:26:48   episode of Babylon 5 really in caps [TS]

00:26:50   encapsulate why i happen to prefer [TS]

00:26:52   Babylon 5 because you know if the the [TS]

00:26:55   one with the one with the weekend we can [TS]

00:26:56   spoil the next generation this is not [TS]

00:26:58   the next generation project [TS]

00:27:00   exactly screw the likes o the in the [TS]

00:27:04   cards being interrogated and the [TS]

00:27:06   inquisitors like well you know I'm sorry [TS]

00:27:08   to have to interrogate you like this you [TS]

00:27:10   know that I was raised a scientist you [TS]

00:27:11   know I was a small boy who chased frogs [TS]

00:27:14   and glum before and I have my I had a [TS]

00:27:16   teacher named mr. like that just like [TS]

00:27:18   the interrogators opening up to him and [TS]

00:27:20   talking all this stuff and the entire [TS]

00:27:22   episode is about how pacar gets over [TS]

00:27:25   gets it over on him and puts the [TS]

00:27:26   Inquisitor in his place and gets rescued [TS]

00:27:28   and says defiantly there are fault [TS]

00:27:31   lights or whatever it is he says through [TS]

00:27:32   those parts and got rest with Babylon 5 [TS]

00:27:36   it's like no you don't understand he [TS]

00:27:38   this characters being interrogated by an [TS]

00:27:40   experienced interrogator in a facility [TS]

00:27:42   where they do nothing but interrogate [TS]

00:27:44   enemies all day long if the if if this [TS]

00:27:47   characters they there's nothing about [TS]

00:27:50   this situation that they don't control [TS]

00:27:52   this character is completely screwed and [TS]

00:27:55   anytime that they that he's happy it's [TS]

00:27:57   only because they have manipulated [TS]

00:27:58   things to make him feel happy and by the [TS]

00:28:00   end of the episode maybe you're gonna [TS]

00:28:02   find out that this is the it's like that [TS]

00:28:05   this is the point which I'm like sort of [TS]

00:28:06   standing up and applauding because I i [TS]

00:28:09   didn't i didn't dislike the next [TS]

00:28:11   generation but again if what the times [TS]

00:28:14   when that that series disappointed me [TS]

00:28:16   was when it seemed as though there was a [TS]

00:28:18   storyline that said well this obviously [TS]

00:28:20   has to end this way because this there's [TS]

00:28:23   absolutely no way in hell that this the [TS]

00:28:24   storyline is going to end with a person [TS]

00:28:26   who grew up in a hundred thousand year [TS]

00:28:28   old civilization where they euthanize [TS]

00:28:30   everybody 865 is suddenly going to [TS]

00:28:32   decide that that's all bs [TS]

00:28:34   that's not gonna work that's not gonna [TS]

00:28:35   happen oh wait that's exactly what [TS]

00:28:37   happened ok again I don't know for sure [TS]

00:28:40   getting into spoiler territory or but [TS]

00:28:41   even the changes between who's running [TS]

00:28:44   that modified between the first season [TS]

00:28:46   in the second season second season [TS]

00:28:48   started like the healthy but what the [TS]

00:28:51   hell's going on here because there was [TS]

00:28:54   no explanation given whatsoever we [TS]

00:28:56   didn't come to understand the reasoning [TS]

00:28:58   why things happened until much later on [TS]

00:29:01   and of course you know being a cynical [TS]

00:29:03   person figured I can a lot of so unless [TS]

00:29:05   they had a contract dispute or something [TS]

00:29:06   like that [TS]

00:29:07   the others they're just going to pretend [TS]

00:29:09   that there are you know to Darrin's on [TS]

00:29:11   bewitched you mentioned you mentioned [TS]

00:29:13   lost earlier and I mean this is one of [TS]

00:29:14   the facts of any long-running TV shows [TS]

00:29:16   you're gonna have casting problems that [TS]

00:29:17   are not story problems and you know la [TS]

00:29:19   lost probably have some story problems [TS]

00:29:21   too i love i love lost I you know it's [TS]

00:29:24   it's that's just my cross to bear but [TS]

00:29:26   the fact is they uh they also have [TS]

00:29:29   casting problems [TS]

00:29:31   mankind is born into trouble surely a [TS]

00:29:33   sparks fly upward and some people have [TS]

00:29:34   to have to buy the DVD some people have [TS]

00:29:36   to buy the blu rays of loss tonight i do [TS]

00:29:38   have them but you know that my point is [TS]

00:29:41   a casting is also a problem and so in [TS]

00:29:44   Babylon 5 you did have actors who had to [TS]

00:29:46   leave and they had to get you know I [TS]

00:29:48   think since go is called the trop [TS]

00:29:50   trapdoors he had trapdoors there that he [TS]

00:29:52   could he could pull if he needed to and [TS]

00:29:55   one of them was Michael hair had to [TS]

00:29:58   leave after the first season I think [TS]

00:29:59   that it's come out in in recent years [TS]

00:30:02   that he was struggling with mental [TS]

00:30:03   illness and they kept it quiet but he [TS]

00:30:07   and he got through that season but he [TS]

00:30:10   needed to not be on the show anymore and [TS]

00:30:12   then you also the examples like Oh Talia [TS]

00:30:15   winters that actress wanted out and so [TS]

00:30:19   they wrote her out and claudia christian [TS]

00:30:22   county and claudia christian had a [TS]

00:30:25   contract negotiation problem and you [TS]

00:30:27   know that it happened as they went and [TS]

00:30:30   and some of that stuff just happens on [TS]

00:30:31   TV that's just that's just how it is and [TS]

00:30:33   and you know audiences get sad about it [TS]

00:30:37   I i was gonna let's fire off the spoiler [TS]

00:30:39   how about that we set a lot of things [TS]

00:30:41   unless you guys how are you you before [TS]

00:30:43   we do that you want to talk a little bit [TS]

00:30:44   more about you know reasons that you [TS]

00:30:46   like the show or do you think we should [TS]

00:30:47   end [TS]

00:30:48   spoiler territory right I'd be kind of [TS]

00:30:50   interested in talking about [TS]

00:30:52   oh and i hate to bring this up because [TS]

00:30:53   this is the age old doctor who question [TS]

00:30:54   but if people are interested in it where [TS]

00:30:57   to start because i know many people are [TS]

00:30:59   not super fun of the first season and I [TS]

00:31:01   I am NOT one of those people i thought i [TS]

00:31:03   was a couple years ago I was like oh [TS]

00:31:05   yeah for season was crap but when I went [TS]

00:31:06   back and rewatch the whole thing this [TS]

00:31:08   time I i found myself going oh wait i [TS]

00:31:10   liked this episode we have this one is [TS]

00:31:12   really good too so i'm actually now a [TS]

00:31:14   staunch defender of the first season but [TS]

00:31:16   i think a lot of that may come from the [TS]

00:31:18   fact that i watched the rest of it so i [TS]

00:31:20   can see kind of where it's going and I'm [TS]

00:31:23   just wondering like I said I jumped in [TS]

00:31:25   the first time around in the second or [TS]

00:31:27   third season and i'm wondering if you [TS]

00:31:28   guys think if if people are interested [TS]

00:31:30   in the show should they start at the [TS]

00:31:32   beginning and just power through or [TS]

00:31:34   maybe check out in the middle haha I i [TS]

00:31:37   would recommend that the TNT TV movie [TS]

00:31:42   Babylon 5 in the beginning as a starting [TS]

00:31:44   point really on but it's a real career [TS]

00:31:46   yeah well the end well [TS]

00:31:49   well it it's bought it it spoils the end [TS]

00:31:52   and one key point about see about a one [TS]

00:31:56   key mystery in series one on the other [TS]

00:31:59   hand if you're trying to get somebody [TS]

00:32:00   into the show this with this would be [TS]

00:32:03   when it premiered on the TNT network i [TS]

00:32:06   had a room full of people that I invited [TS]

00:32:09   over for Babylon 5 party who had never [TS]

00:32:11   seen the show and they they were in [TS]

00:32:15   rapture it was it went over it went over [TS]

00:32:18   better than I that I could have thought [TS]

00:32:20   those brand you and and when you and [TS]

00:32:24   when you watch in the beginning and then [TS]

00:32:27   go into the first season although some [TS]

00:32:30   of the spoilers are kick over then some [TS]

00:32:33   of the other the resistance that comes [TS]

00:32:35   up when you watch this uneven first [TS]

00:32:37   season where they're so we're sort of [TS]

00:32:38   finding their way you see enough of the [TS]

00:32:41   context in these other other episodes so [TS]

00:32:44   that would be my vote you have mine [TS]

00:32:46   wants to be my vote would be power [TS]

00:32:48   through it because there's so much that [TS]

00:32:50   happens in that first season that you're [TS]

00:32:52   right it's like its agreement tom clancy [TS]

00:32:54   book you get 300 pages into it before [TS]

00:32:56   you know the count [TS]

00:32:57   bizarre but the book doesn't make any [TS]

00:32:59   sense without it and then you're missing [TS]

00:33:01   quite a lot because there's so much for [TS]

00:33:04   shadowing at first season that's the [TS]

00:33:05   problem foreshadowing it can be a little [TS]

00:33:08   bit boring at times until you get into [TS]

00:33:10   it that you know i would tell people [TS]

00:33:12   you're going to commit power through [TS]

00:33:13   watch start with the pilot suffer [TS]

00:33:17   through it because it isn't as good as [TS]

00:33:19   their ass yeah but you should still you [TS]

00:33:21   should you should still suffer through [TS]

00:33:23   it just to get a sense of the show we [TS]

00:33:25   can say suffer quite so much revenue [TS]

00:33:27   interested and actually and which pilot [TS]

00:33:31   are you talking about because there are [TS]

00:33:32   two versions of it you know whatever one [TS]

00:33:35   you can get the one with you yeah the [TS]

00:33:36   one with the stewart copeland soundtrack [TS]

00:33:38   or the one that was really scored yeah [TS]

00:33:39   what happened was the the pilot the [TS]

00:33:42   pilot is called the gathering and you [TS]

00:33:44   can get it in on non DVD if you give you [TS]

00:33:47   if you go for the DVD sets the one that [TS]

00:33:50   you will get is the one that was reacted [TS]

00:33:52   for tnt and aired and the it's been [TS]

00:33:57   rescored it's been re-edited tightened [TS]

00:33:59   up there's more stuff to it on balance [TS]

00:34:02   and I think it's much [TS]

00:34:03   yeah i think i like it i didn't make it [TS]

00:34:06   i thought i founded cringe-worthy yeah I [TS]

00:34:09   didn't I didn't I didn't love it and but [TS]

00:34:11   it's hard to not it's hard to not have [TS]

00:34:14   it but uh the the version the version on [TS]

00:34:17   itunes I don't know about the other [TS]

00:34:18   digital services but the version itunes [TS]

00:34:20   is the original letter with the stewart [TS]

00:34:21   copeland soundtrack and other stuff and [TS]

00:34:24   I I don't like it as much as you like [TS]

00:34:25   your Babylon 5 sounding like an episode [TS]

00:34:27   of the equalizer that is a version that [TS]

00:34:30   is the version for I think you gotta [TS]

00:34:32   watch season one and and i'm going to [TS]

00:34:33   say you could probably somebody could [TS]

00:34:35   probably construct a a a viewing guide [TS]

00:34:38   that included half the episodes of [TS]

00:34:40   season one and probably you could get [TS]

00:34:42   the flavor for it or you can just power [TS]

00:34:44   through it I i think the reasons the big [TS]

00:34:46   reasons you you can't do it i mean the [TS]

00:34:48   number one reason is Sinclair I he is [TS]

00:34:51   that is a that is a character that grows [TS]

00:34:54   on you and by the end of the season [TS]

00:34:55   that's the real shame of him of him [TS]

00:34:57   leaving the show which he does sorry [TS]

00:34:59   little spoiler there but I mean it's a [TS]

00:35:02   minor honestly in the grand scheme of [TS]

00:35:04   things he leaves that he leaves the show [TS]

00:35:06   as a regular after the first season he [TS]

00:35:08   grows on you and ends up being he's not [TS]

00:35:11   not the at the star trek captain that [TS]

00:35:14   you're sort of expecting and he is this [TS]

00:35:15   very different kind of guy and he ends [TS]

00:35:17   up being really kind of endearing and [TS]

00:35:19   interesting also Michael O'Hare's [TS]

00:35:22   performance is not what you expect from [TS]

00:35:24   your leading man and that takes some [TS]

00:35:26   getting used to but in the end you know [TS]

00:35:28   I think you need to have that experience [TS]

00:35:30   with Sinclair and you need to see where [TS]

00:35:31   things get set up with him and his [TS]

00:35:33   relationship with the land so that when [TS]

00:35:35   bruce boxleitner comes in as Sheridan [TS]

00:35:37   which I would argue is the moment where [TS]

00:35:40   the show clinched it was gonna be around [TS]

00:35:42   that they gotta somebody people knew and [TS]

00:35:45   a really good I I think good actor with [TS]

00:35:48   a good character and I think that was [TS]

00:35:50   the moment where for me the show caught [TS]

00:35:52   fire is when bruce boxleitner walked on [TS]

00:35:54   the on the on the set and I was like oh [TS]

00:35:56   this guy i know this guy he's got you [TS]

00:35:59   know he's got command but you can't you [TS]

00:36:00   gotta have that Sinclair stuff and you [TS]

00:36:02   gotta have his relationship with [TS]

00:36:03   Garibaldi and you've got to have the [TS]

00:36:05   Babylon squared episode before you see [TS]

00:36:08   simply or before you see share it and so [TS]

00:36:10   I think you got you gotta watch season [TS]

00:36:11   one and he's so different than Sharon [TS]

00:36:14   did get the contrast is why didn't I [TS]

00:36:17   cast someone and say let's make you know [TS]

00:36:20   shared just added the Sinclair mode you [TS]

00:36:23   know now is playing the part of Jeffrey [TS]

00:36:25   Sinclair I i also agree that power [TS]

00:36:29   through season one with where we're [TS]

00:36:31   making fun of it because we're fans [TS]

00:36:33   it really isn't as bad as we're jokingly [TS]

00:36:35   making it out to be [TS]

00:36:36   it's just that this is a huge this is a [TS]

00:36:38   cruise ship lose leaving the terminal [TS]

00:36:40   that is not going to show its full power [TS]

00:36:43   until its left port that's the and [TS]

00:36:45   that's what you have to deal with the [TS]

00:36:47   springtime those strings the our [TS]

00:36:48   campuses and there's a lot fewer arc [TS]

00:36:50   episodes in season one because right you [TS]

00:36:52   got to get everybody used to it and yet [TS]

00:36:55   you know they they haven't figured out [TS]

00:36:56   how to shoot it they hadn't figured out [TS]

00:36:57   how to direct the cgi is still kind of a [TS]

00:36:59   work-in-progress everything is like [TS]

00:37:01   powering up in season one which is not [TS]

00:37:03   to say that it's terrible but everything [TS]

00:37:05   is not where it's going to be by the [TS]

00:37:07   season two and reach and bring up and [TS]

00:37:09   bring currently if you bring up a really [TS]

00:37:12   great point in that there are arc that [TS]

00:37:15   they're there arc and their non arc [TS]

00:37:16   episodes and some of them are what was [TS]

00:37:18   the term that the Germans used to say [TS]

00:37:20   that there is like the sledgehammer [TS]

00:37:22   episodes where this is one of the but [TS]

00:37:24   yeah basically [TS]

00:37:25   amazon episode right so you can probably [TS]

00:37:27   come up with a list of non arc episodes [TS]

00:37:30   like intersections in real time as I was [TS]

00:37:32   watching it was i was struck by the fact [TS]

00:37:34   that if you would never see if you if if [TS]

00:37:37   if there were no syndication of the show [TS]

00:37:41   whatsoever no dvds they could sell this [TS]

00:37:44   just as an episode of an anthology [TS]

00:37:45   series because all you need it doesn't [TS]

00:37:48   connect to anything or any stories [TS]

00:37:49   outside in a profound way if all you [TS]

00:37:52   know you get from the first five minutes [TS]

00:37:54   the episode that there is somebody who [TS]

00:37:56   is in some sort of large military [TS]

00:37:58   organization the government that owns [TS]

00:38:00   that military organization seems to [TS]

00:38:02   think that he has been affected and now [TS]

00:38:05   he's being interrogated that's really [TS]

00:38:06   all you need [TS]

00:38:07   I was also thinking of a another one of [TS]

00:38:09   my favorite favorite episodes passing [TS]

00:38:12   through the ceremony which is an episode [TS]

00:38:14   on that one [TS]

00:38:15   you also get such a gutsy episode [TS]

00:38:18   because it would it's introduces a new [TS]

00:38:19   character so you don't have to know my [TS]

00:38:21   love back story but powerful dramatic [TS]

00:38:24   moment with serious consequences that [TS]

00:38:27   are dealt with within the episode and it [TS]

00:38:29   also shows you it's it's it's a good [TS]

00:38:31   calling card because i don't know if a [TS]

00:38:34   lot of these series would have had the [TS]

00:38:36   guts to be explicit about the religion [TS]

00:38:39   of future the future world that were no [TS]

00:38:42   we're not going to say that well of [TS]

00:38:43   course we know it all the times we pray [TS]

00:38:46   to pagan gods but of course now we [TS]

00:38:48   understand that there's science behind [TS]

00:38:49   all of this [TS]

00:38:50   no there are monks then there are [TS]

00:38:52   religious orders and there are people [TS]

00:38:53   who celebrate Hanukkah and the light [TS]

00:38:55   menorahs and the end them and the monks [TS]

00:38:57   are actually very intelligent sharp [TS]

00:38:59   people who have who are very very adept [TS]

00:39:01   there they're like Jesuits really [TS]

00:39:02   because they're willing to say there's [TS]

00:39:04   absolutely there's absolutely no [TS]

00:39:05   conflict between the fact that there are [TS]

00:39:07   a million different races as a matter of [TS]

00:39:09   fact that gives us the impetus to find [TS]

00:39:11   out why how they see their God and how [TS]

00:39:14   does it compare to how we see our God [TS]

00:39:15   and I wanted it I wanted to mention in [TS]

00:39:18   Parliament dreams is an episode where we [TS]

00:39:19   see lots of aliens and we see lots of [TS]

00:39:21   religious beliefs and what one of the [TS]

00:39:22   things and it won an Emmy actually for [TS]

00:39:24   makeup but it also won joseph kosinski [TS]

00:39:27   an award for covering religious themes [TS]

00:39:31   and television which is fascinating [TS]

00:39:33   because he is a he has a religious [TS]

00:39:36   background but is an atheist and yet [TS]

00:39:38   didn't shy away from saying you don't go [TS]

00:39:40   out in space you know all the stuff that [TS]

00:39:42   we have with us here it's going to come [TS]

00:39:43   with us and it's not going to disappear [TS]

00:39:45   it's still going to be there and maybe [TS]

00:39:47   if we meet aliens they're gonna have [TS]

00:39:49   some of their own beliefs and wouldn't [TS]

00:39:51   be interesting to talk about that mets [TS]

00:39:53   and he did and and that's another thing [TS]

00:39:56   that I think you don't see inside I TV a [TS]

00:39:58   lot I and you're right about the [TS]

00:40:02   standalone episodes i could I can hand [TS]

00:40:03   the wheat with the way I'm episodes are [TS]

00:40:05   great and then why I just was scrolling [TS]

00:40:08   through the lurkers guide to Babylon 5 [TS]

00:40:10   which is was the very early and [TS]

00:40:13   definitive TV resource largely authored [TS]

00:40:17   by whom CEO Stephen Grimm is that is the [TS]

00:40:21   fellows name uh and I i met there is [TS]

00:40:24   another name that i saw on that sigh i [TS]

00:40:26   bring up over my name appears on about [TS]

00:40:28   four four episodes because I was willing [TS]

00:40:30   to read the spoilers from the episode [TS]

00:40:32   that aired in the UK before they aired [TS]

00:40:34   in the US and edit those pages for [TS]

00:40:35   Stephen because he didn't want to be [TS]

00:40:36   spoiled and when somebody very nice in [TS]

00:40:38   the UK sent Stephen those episodes on a [TS]

00:40:40   VHS tape he invited me to come down and [TS]

00:40:43   see the thing I'd already been spoiled [TS]

00:40:44   on so I got to watch it watch four [TS]

00:40:47   episodes of Babylon 5 with the guy who [TS]

00:40:49   delivers got which was pretty cool [TS]

00:40:50   I'm not the lurkers guys still up it's [TS]

00:40:53   amazingly enough it is still at [TS]

00:40:55   midwinter dot-com / lurk even now you [TS]

00:40:57   can if you kids want to see what the [TS]

00:40:59   internet look like a 1999 yeah that is [TS]

00:41:03   which interrogation bar is only like one [TS]

00:41:06   quarter of the size of your screen [TS]

00:41:07   yeah yeah it was formatted for vga those [TS]

00:41:10   were the days [TS]

00:41:11   what if you go to the front page you'll [TS]

00:41:12   see that he's put it all up on github [TS]

00:41:14   now you know kids you don't really you [TS]

00:41:16   don't necessarily have to have the real [TS]

00:41:18   real player plugin now I'm not because [TS]

00:41:21   you you because my modem can't handle [TS]

00:41:23   that kind of data but anyway there are a [TS]

00:41:25   lot of great there a lot of great [TS]

00:41:26   standalone episodes up there are you [TS]

00:41:29   know quality of Mercy with June Lockhart [TS]

00:41:30   as the woman whose mysteriously healing [TS]

00:41:33   people in the down below and and even [TS]

00:41:36   those episodes it someway or another got [TS]

00:41:38   worked into your understanding upset you [TS]

00:41:40   didn't have to see the rest of them they [TS]

00:41:41   were ok but one way or another he found [TS]

00:41:45   ways of working all the standalone up [TS]

00:41:46   so it's for the most part it's it's some [TS]

00:41:49   level into the things came back its true [TS]

00:41:51   like that like that episode is a great [TS]

00:41:53   example to young the jewel of the [TS]

00:41:54   healing she would come to action right i [TS]

00:41:57   mean yeah I mean we thought that was [TS]

00:41:58   totally done with and surprisingly [TS]

00:42:01   enough it you know he kept it around as [TS]

00:42:03   just time I need that it for a rainy day [TS]

00:42:05   and he and he used it [TS]

00:42:08   ok let's fire off the spoiler form [TS]

00:42:14   alright where were able to sew [TS]

00:42:17   Sinclair's valen make no it doesn't get [TS]

00:42:21   that out doesn't it [TS]

00:42:22   ok oh I feel so much better now it's [TS]

00:42:28   funny actually I wanted to mention [TS]

00:42:29   before before we talk a little bit more [TS]

00:42:31   about the story arc we were talking [TS]

00:42:32   about standalone episodes and maybe we [TS]

00:42:35   could we could talk about favorite [TS]

00:42:36   episodes briefly and i'm going to say we [TS]

00:42:40   picked some really good episodes for [TS]

00:42:41   this obviously i think that they no [TS]

00:42:43   surrender no retreat is a really great [TS]

00:42:45   one interludes and examinations which [TS]

00:42:48   sounds very much like it's going to be [TS]

00:42:50   an episode in which nothing happens and [TS]

00:42:51   in fact shocking amount of things happen [TS]

00:42:53   and the room gets mighty dusty when [TS]

00:42:56   cautious ship flies itself into the Sun [TS]

00:42:59   because josh has been we realize what [TS]

00:43:03   he's been trying to tell Sheridan is [TS]

00:43:05   you're right we need to do this thing [TS]

00:43:07   and attack the shadows and they're going [TS]

00:43:08   to kill me and and I'm not going to be [TS]

00:43:10   able to protect you [TS]

00:43:12   Rance Howard Rance Howard or years old [TS]

00:43:15   the older you get the more set in your [TS]

00:43:17   ways to get more you don't know I guess [TS]

00:43:18   I just try to help as much of that could [TS]

00:43:20   those that are watching new moon scale [TS]

00:43:24   we said the episodes with the most [TS]

00:43:26   innocuous title that's the 1i am worried [TS]

00:43:29   oh my god I've never got so broken up [TS]

00:43:32   about the death of a toilet seat board [TS]

00:43:34   it's a beautiful to register tortoise [TS]

00:43:37   shell pattern on the toilet seat Bolin [TS]

00:43:40   gosh I i seriously khosh what a strange [TS]

00:43:43   character and obviously we never seem [TS]

00:43:45   easy he's a he is a puppeteer and then [TS]

00:43:48   AAW invoice but um has amazing dialogue [TS]

00:43:52   michael and i will often say to each [TS]

00:43:54   other on Twitter that the you know the [TS]

00:43:57   Avalanche has already begun it's too [TS]

00:43:59   late for the pebbles to vote right for [TS]

00:44:02   you have forgotten something [TS]

00:44:04   but at the end there when khosh is [TS]

00:44:06   attacked by the shadows it's upsetting [TS]

00:44:07   that you feel sad that this character [TS]

00:44:11   who was not portrayed by actor if is [TS]

00:44:14   dead [TS]

00:44:15   it's anything you beautiful about that [TS]

00:44:17   particular scene is they don't show like [TS]

00:44:20   shadows taking out lightsabers and and [TS]

00:44:23   you know [TS]

00:44:23   kaash taking out is you know for line [TS]

00:44:25   Ben is three sword yeah it's just it's [TS]

00:44:29   it's sort of happens in a blur because [TS]

00:44:31   this really how do you portray that he [TS]

00:44:33   didn't bother there are totally [TS]

00:44:35   different level [TS]

00:44:36   yeah it was anything else but it kind of [TS]

00:44:38   just made it was cheap and then that one [TS]

00:44:40   moment you know where this surge of [TS]

00:44:42   energy goes to shit like what the hell [TS]

00:44:44   just happened [TS]

00:44:45   mmhmm yeah and then and and the room the [TS]

00:44:48   room turns bright and add water closes [TS]

00:44:50   his eyes and that's just you know that's [TS]

00:44:52   it is a signature moment for that show [TS]

00:44:56   yeah there's a lot of moments like that [TS]

00:44:58   where you you wonder what that it's easy [TS]

00:45:01   to be embarrassed her fraudulent to be [TS]

00:45:02   armchair psychologist and try to think [TS]

00:45:05   about the relationship that the creator [TS]

00:45:06   of this show must have had with his [TS]

00:45:08   father because there are a lot of [TS]

00:45:10   interludes like that where somebody has [TS]

00:45:14   a conversation with their father or [TS]

00:45:16   someone that has a fatherly love [TS]

00:45:18   relationship with preferred for me there [TS]

00:45:20   was this is me like recording the shows [TS]

00:45:23   on VHS and wearing out that section of [TS]

00:45:25   tape that I recorded dust to dust on [TS]

00:45:28   where Dzhokhar is as happy as having a [TS]

00:45:31   hallucination but he essentially meets [TS]

00:45:33   his spiritual father and he just then [TS]

00:45:35   the spiritual father just lays it out [TS]

00:45:37   for your car you have become distracted [TS]

00:45:39   this is why you're angry and this is [TS]

00:45:41   what you have to do and you have this [TS]

00:45:44   moment of pure epiphany that is so [TS]

00:45:48   powerful that as jakar is breaking down [TS]

00:45:51   i found myself in my office they're just [TS]

00:45:54   like wiping a tier thinking that my god [TS]

00:45:57   we have seen the rebirth of another [TS]

00:45:59   person here and that and that and it [TS]

00:46:02   really is a father-son sort of things [TS]

00:46:04   that the first is not even a second of [TS]

00:46:06   the fifth time that you see the kind of [TS]

00:46:08   relationship between these two be [TS]

00:46:09   between two characters like that we see [TS]

00:46:12   with Oliver and her father is going [TS]

00:46:15   along there's no doubt that in many ways [TS]

00:46:19   you know Sharon father was a war on the [TS]

00:46:23   often but i often quoted father's well [TS]

00:46:25   that's that that Star Trek where [TS]

00:46:26   everyone who everyone who looks human is [TS]

00:46:28   actually the offspring of human another [TS]

00:46:30   hey Liam certainly he just combed his [TS]

00:46:33   hair so you can see the bump on his [TS]

00:46:34   forehead we could definitely see when we [TS]

00:46:36   actually meet that you know the real [TS]

00:46:38   Sheridan's father rant rant our data [TS]

00:46:40   that a he too had his aphorisms right [TS]

00:46:45   engine and John would quote them and so [TS]

00:46:47   to have Josh take his his appearance in [TS]

00:46:50   order to say goodbye was this really [TS]

00:46:52   nice fitting connection between those [TS]

00:46:55   those characters and even happens in [TS]

00:46:57   midnight on the firing line when the [TS]

00:46:59   sinclair and love are talking about [TS]

00:47:01   Sinclair's father and he sort of looks [TS]

00:47:02   off in the distance you know that is a [TS]

00:47:04   nice and version of that with dr. [TS]

00:47:06   Franklin and his father because they [TS]

00:47:07   didn't get along and he comes in and it [TS]

00:47:10   but that but of course eventually they [TS]

00:47:12   sort of makeup and there's our wrath of [TS]

00:47:13   khan connection because that's paul [TS]

00:47:14   winfield but when you think about it- [TS]

00:47:18   spoiler horn has been alerted is that [TS]

00:47:21   when you get to the end of the end of [TS]

00:47:22   series where they finally pay off here [TS]

00:47:24   is what the entire series has been about [TS]

00:47:26   it really is about older generation [TS]

00:47:29   younger generation and the conflict is [TS]

00:47:30   always going to be between the two and [TS]

00:47:32   what the older generation will always [TS]

00:47:34   represent to that younger generation and [TS]

00:47:36   that and then you need at that you're [TS]

00:47:38   not to you really haven't completed your [TS]

00:47:40   journey until you have in a kind way [TS]

00:47:42   told the order older generation go to [TS]

00:47:44   hell i don't have to do what you're [TS]

00:47:45   telling me to do i can now think an act [TS]

00:47:47   and create the next generation of [TS]

00:47:49   Destiny for the world around me so I [TS]

00:47:52   don't have to tell my parents now get [TS]

00:47:53   the hell out of my galaxy or and i sent [TS]

00:47:56   a card on their birthdays and [TS]

00:47:57   anniversary if it's our time now [TS]

00:48:01   oh and along those lines of the the [TS]

00:48:05   piece that the the moment in this show [TS]

00:48:07   that really makes me ball [TS]

00:48:10   uh yes I can admit it is it is possibly [TS]

00:48:13   unusual when it's in its towards the end [TS]

00:48:16   of the series objects at rest when [TS]

00:48:18   sheridan and delenn are leaving Babylon [TS]

00:48:21   5 for the last time and this is the last [TS]

00:48:24   one of your episodes shot because the an [TS]

00:48:26   11-yard shot the year before [TS]

00:48:28   absolutely but they come about to become [TS]

00:48:32   about to look at the to take one last [TS]

00:48:34   look and you zoom in on the command deck [TS]

00:48:39   of the station and lined up [TS]

00:48:43   all in a row are all of these new [TS]

00:48:45   characters or old characters lifted up [TS]

00:48:47   in new positions and it is somebody who [TS]

00:48:50   is a replacement for every single lead [TS]

00:48:55   character in the show from commander [TS]

00:48:57   from Captain lochley veer replacing [TS]

00:49:00   Londo tell on replacing jakar the you [TS]

00:49:05   know all of it and silly and it's like [TS]

00:49:08   that is exactly what you're talking [TS]

00:49:09   about the next generation the [TS]

00:49:11   replacements here we are we're moving on [TS]

00:49:13   goodbye and I and then that Christopher [TS]

00:49:16   frog music in the background and I'm [TS]

00:49:19   verklempt [TS]

00:49:19   yeah yeah and and also the changing and [TS]

00:49:24   shifting perspectives like it gets to [TS]

00:49:26   the point where ok we think we know who [TS]

00:49:28   the good guys are we think we know who [TS]

00:49:30   the bad guys are in no it turns out the [TS]

00:49:32   universe isn't black and white [TS]

00:49:34   uh-huh and and maybe some of these good [TS]

00:49:37   guys are kind of acting in their own [TS]

00:49:39   interests that have absolutely nothing [TS]

00:49:42   to do with no right or wrong good and [TS]

00:49:45   evil and sort of Sheridan comes to that [TS]

00:49:47   conclusion of look what's actually [TS]

00:49:49   happening here the show really tilt in a [TS]

00:49:52   very different direction [TS]

00:49:53   yeah I i really appreciate and I and at [TS]

00:49:57   the time I don't know if it still is but [TS]

00:49:58   at the time it was controversial that [TS]

00:49:59   they ended the shadow for long conflict [TS]

00:50:01   so quickly but I mean I thought it was a [TS]

00:50:03   beautiful thing that the shadows goal is [TS]

00:50:05   not to take over the galaxy the shadows [TS]

00:50:07   goal is to i think they said knock over [TS]

00:50:09   an anthill right the shot just the [TS]

00:50:11   shadows shadows goal is to sow chaos and [TS]

00:50:15   get everybody to fight each other [TS]

00:50:16   because out of that will come a better [TS]

00:50:19   you know a better society the strong [TS]

00:50:21   will rise and the vorlons are kind of [TS]

00:50:24   above the fray but they're they're both [TS]

00:50:26   sort of feel like the galaxies there is [TS]

00:50:28   to dictate how it's going to go and that [TS]

00:50:30   and so you know yes the shadows are bad [TS]

00:50:32   and need to be defeated but at the same [TS]

00:50:34   time in the end they both need to go [TS]

00:50:37   they only mom and dad both need to get [TS]

00:50:39   out of the galaxy and that's one of the [TS]

00:50:41   that kind of brings me to an episode [TS]

00:50:43   that i really like which is enough [TS]

00:50:44   falling toward apotheosis which was the [TS]

00:50:46   first episode of season four [TS]

00:50:48   there's so much that happens in it that [TS]

00:50:49   the part that I like the best was was [TS]

00:50:51   actually the jacquard Londo stuff on [TS]

00:50:53   centauri prime but i also like the fact [TS]

00:50:55   that back on Babylon [TS]

00:50:56   five you got Sharon Lauren and a piece [TS]

00:50:58   of cosh taking down the new foreign [TS]

00:51:00   ambassador and I just I really like that [TS]

00:51:02   the vorlons don't stay this magical [TS]

00:51:04   mystical good guy angel folk they just [TS]

00:51:07   turned into a hole like everybody else [TS]

00:51:09   it turns out that they're not all the [TS]

00:51:11   same writer not all cut from the same [TS]

00:51:12   old and cash was actually kind of [TS]

00:51:14   different than his replacement wasn't [TS]

00:51:16   nearly as nice that's why they sent him [TS]

00:51:17   to Babylon 5 they stuck him with that [TS]

00:51:19   job that's right well that's I think [TS]

00:51:21   that was sort of the point right you [TS]

00:51:22   know the beginning mondo is like a I I'm [TS]

00:51:25   being punished from the World Court they [TS]

00:51:27   sent me here [TS]

00:51:28   yeah but with a but worth of Orleans [TS]

00:51:31   like presented at that moment of reveal [TS]

00:51:33   that they are if they they aren't the [TS]

00:51:35   good guys in the shadows of the bad guys [TS]

00:51:37   there's two opposite points of view [TS]

00:51:38   where guests the the vorlons excuse me [TS]

00:51:41   the the shadows believe kick over [TS]

00:51:43   inhales create conflicts become that the [TS]

00:51:45   survivors will become better and [TS]

00:51:46   stronger rest i think i can remember [TS]

00:51:48   this is an active i remember this as [TS]

00:51:50   being an exact line but I could be wrong [TS]

00:51:51   thing for the the vorlons are the ones [TS]

00:51:53   who sit down eat your vegetables comb [TS]

00:51:56   your hair wash behind your ears and both [TS]

00:51:59   of them are doing the same in both of [TS]

00:52:00   your eye doing are doing the same thing [TS]

00:52:01   saying that this generation is for us to [TS]

00:52:04   manipulate into we are that we are the [TS]

00:52:06   shepherds of the universe and we are the [TS]

00:52:09   parents who will make sure that the [TS]

00:52:10   everything work out fine by telling [TS]

00:52:12   everybody else what to do [TS]

00:52:13   whereas they don't it's alright it's [TS]

00:52:15   like the opposite of being of being a [TS]

00:52:17   child in this universe the time you you [TS]

00:52:20   should realize the power of your work is [TS]

00:52:21   done so you have to move out of the [TS]

00:52:22   universe [TS]

00:52:23   well you could you could read it going [TS]

00:52:25   to the next thing you could argue that [TS]

00:52:26   the minbari are in this state of [TS]

00:52:28   Arrested Development right because a [TS]

00:52:29   thousand years before as we see when [TS]

00:52:31   Babylon 4 gets it back in time and [TS]

00:52:33   Sinclair becomes valen and they fight [TS]

00:52:35   the shadow war the previous shadow war [TS]

00:52:37   they had spaceships and stuff then and [TS]

00:52:39   they were shaped a little differently [TS]

00:52:40   those little fishies that they fly [TS]

00:52:42   around in were a little rounder but um [TS]

00:52:45   they just are still doing the same stuff [TS]

00:52:48   thousand years later and why is that [TS]

00:52:50   that's because that's what the this [TS]

00:52:53   stasis that the galaxies in because the [TS]

00:52:56   shadows and the vorlons have been [TS]

00:52:57   playing this game for you know thousands [TS]

00:52:59   and thousands or millions of years and [TS]

00:53:01   and I I thought that was really great [TS]

00:53:03   because that is showing you that they [TS]

00:53:06   you know yet for the for the world's too [TS]

00:53:09   advanced for the [TS]

00:53:10   galaxy to advance they gotta leave they [TS]

00:53:11   got they got to let let everybody the [TS]

00:53:13   parents have to let the kids grow up and [TS]

00:53:15   that's a one of the interesting way to [TS]

00:53:17   resolve that that story and it's setup [TS]

00:53:20   it's not a made-up thing is set up all [TS]

00:53:22   the way through but it's a really nice [TS]

00:53:24   payoff that's very surprising if it's [TS]

00:53:26   not good versus evil it's two styles of [TS]

00:53:28   parenting both feel right no apparent [TS]

00:53:31   that says I'm gonna be very strict and [TS]

00:53:32   my kid play the piano and you know clean [TS]

00:53:35   up the room and the other parent goes [TS]

00:53:37   now I'm not my kid do whatever they want [TS]

00:53:38   and you know let them go their own way [TS]

00:53:40   and and don't eventually learn from [TS]

00:53:42   mistakes etc whatever the basketball [TS]

00:53:45   coach yells at their players versus the [TS]

00:53:46   one who becomes a father figure to all [TS]

00:53:49   of them and they both have their their [TS]

00:53:50   their their plan because the shadows [TS]

00:53:52   goal is to make everybody better and [TS]

00:53:55   stronger and more resilient self-reliant [TS]

00:53:57   I mean there they are evil in a way but [TS]

00:54:01   that they don't necessarily have evil an [TS]

00:54:04   evil plan for the end result they're not [TS]

00:54:07   trying to kill everybody [TS]

00:54:08   they were are going to kill lots of [TS]

00:54:10   people because that's what they're going [TS]

00:54:11   to do and that's bad but in the end they [TS]

00:54:13   just want you know that they want to [TS]

00:54:15   help our evolution along by making [TS]

00:54:18   everybody fight and and improve [TS]

00:54:20   themselves in order to survive the fight [TS]

00:54:22   and more chaotic neutral i would say but [TS]

00:54:24   not not to say the word evil people on [TS]

00:54:27   the show right mr. Morden clearly he was [TS]

00:54:32   possessed but yeah like it [TS]

00:54:34   he was right and that's not you know we [TS]

00:54:36   haven't talked without one of my [TS]

00:54:37   favorite characters are you know in [TS]

00:54:40   check off [TS]

00:54:41   uh-oh faster ah yes faster was also [TS]

00:54:45   denied especially his interactions [TS]

00:54:47   through out the series with Garibaldi [TS]

00:54:49   yeah great character great great [TS]

00:54:52   showcase for for Walter cannock yeah [TS]

00:54:54   really he managed to you know get out of [TS]

00:54:56   the checkoff mold I didn't know he was [TS]

00:54:58   going to pull it off the first time like [TS]

00:55:00   you know he guest-starred and it was [TS]

00:55:02   just perfectly play again character [TS]

00:55:04   interactions his interaction with [TS]

00:55:05   Garibaldi the whole time kind of up and [TS]

00:55:07   through the fifth season was just [TS]

00:55:11   wonderful that [TS]

00:55:14   how can mr. Garibaldi the Garibaldi [TS]

00:55:17   cigar Baldy says the best i'm gonna bite [TS]

00:55:19   of something to beat you like a pinata [TS]

00:55:21   investors as oh so you think of me as a [TS]

00:55:24   bright festive decorative item filled [TS]

00:55:27   with treats and candy for little [TS]

00:55:28   children [TS]

00:55:29   Thank You mr. Garibaldi I like the [TS]

00:55:32   dynamic to decide the whole psyche or [TS]

00:55:34   element which is again you know one of [TS]

00:55:36   these layers of the of the of the world [TS]

00:55:39   building here that there are telepaths [TS]

00:55:41   and humans this happened recently with [TS]

00:55:43   turns out because there's been you know [TS]

00:55:45   manipulation of humanity by the shadows [TS]

00:55:47   i believe is how the right that was that [TS]

00:55:49   was the payoff there but um that they so [TS]

00:55:53   you get you get the telepath 1st its 1st [TS]

00:55:55   it's talia and later it's late alexander [TS]

00:55:57   comes back from the pilot and you've got [TS]

00:55:59   a you've got ivana whose mother was a [TS]

00:56:02   telepath and that there's this dead deal [TS]

00:56:04   with the telepaths where they either [TS]

00:56:06   have to be in the psyche or they have to [TS]

00:56:08   take these terrible drugs that basically [TS]

00:56:09   make them fade away and then they die [TS]

00:56:11   and and that was a fascinating layer [TS]

00:56:14   that there's their debt the dynamic with [TS]

00:56:16   Bester and the psyche or and they [TS]

00:56:18   represent sort of the worst of earth and [TS]

00:56:20   humanity sometimes except not always [TS]

00:56:23   because they are well-rounded people too [TS]

00:56:25   and then you've got like the other [TS]

00:56:26   people who are who have their reasons to [TS]

00:56:28   be offended by them whether they just [TS]

00:56:30   aren't telepathic they have terrible [TS]

00:56:32   secret in their family history like [TS]

00:56:34   ivana I think that's one of the things [TS]

00:56:36   that's so great about Babylon 5 is that [TS]

00:56:38   you had people are well-rounded and you [TS]

00:56:41   get to see the characters in the stories [TS]

00:56:43   from so many different points of view I [TS]

00:56:45   mean talking about cycle you have the [TS]

00:56:47   chorus mother the course father where [TS]

00:56:49   you get to see a whole story from [TS]

00:56:51   Esther's point-of-view sort of her from [TS]

00:56:53   the point of view of up to two adoring [TS]

00:56:56   lackeys of investors who are following [TS]

00:56:58   him around and then you have a couple [TS]

00:57:00   episodes looking at the station from the [TS]

00:57:03   the media point of view or in a [TS]

00:57:05   documentary or the news and then you get [TS]

00:57:07   a view from the gallery where you have [TS]

00:57:09   the maintenance workers looking at so [TS]

00:57:11   you have all these different sort of [TS]

00:57:12   oblique angles that you're staring at [TS]

00:57:15   these beloved characters from and it [TS]

00:57:17   just makes them seem more well-rounded [TS]

00:57:18   more real and i like that are our [TS]

00:57:21   Babylon 5 super fans in the chat room by [TS]

00:57:23   the way point out and I i remember this [TS]

00:57:24   now i knew i wasn't sure about it it's [TS]

00:57:26   the 4 line [TS]

00:57:27   it's created the telepaths yeah and then [TS]

00:57:29   the shadows tried to wipe my life [TS]

00:57:31   because as it turns out tell pastor bad [TS]

00:57:33   for shadows and they don't like that so [TS]

00:57:36   there you go [TS]

00:57:37   although they're also playing that [TS]

00:57:38   they're also playing the long game [TS]

00:57:40   because they're either trying to wipe [TS]

00:57:41   the mountain they did wipe them out of [TS]

00:57:43   the nards or they try to subvert them [TS]

00:57:45   which is what they do by infiltrating [TS]

00:57:46   the psyche or methods its layers and [TS]

00:57:49   layers and i love that freaky shadows [TS]

00:57:51   there's one other one other thing I [TS]

00:57:54   wanted to if you'll forgive me a doctor [TS]

00:57:56   who reference because I'm contractually [TS]

00:57:57   obligated i was waiting for it i think [TS]

00:58:01   the whole message of this show can be [TS]

00:58:04   you can borrow a line from up you can [TS]

00:58:07   borrow a scene actually from the first [TS]

00:58:09   season of the rebooted Doctor Who when [TS]

00:58:12   Rose is sitting in the diner with her [TS]

00:58:15   family and saying it you have to make a [TS]

00:58:18   stand sometimes you have to do the right [TS]

00:58:20   thing you have to do what's right even [TS]

00:58:22   when it's difficult that's what I think [TS]

00:58:24   this is us this is a story about taking [TS]

00:58:28   agency on whether it whether it's the [TS]

00:58:31   human race throwing off the shackles of [TS]

00:58:33   the four lines in the shadows and making [TS]

00:58:36   their own destiny or or or if it's a [TS]

00:58:39   personal story like all of the many many [TS]

00:58:43   opportunities Londo has for redemption [TS]

00:58:45   that he just throws away because he [TS]

00:58:48   claims he doesn't have a choice for me [TS]

00:58:52   that's that's the soul of this show and [TS]

00:58:54   it's the reason why it stuck with me for [TS]

00:58:56   so many years it's a very human story [TS]

00:58:58   about your responsibilities the [TS]

00:59:01   responsibilities you have the choices [TS]

00:59:04   that you make as long as says in no [TS]

00:59:07   surrender no retreat [TS]

00:59:08   I've made some poor decisions which is a [TS]

00:59:12   bit of an understatement and chicken [TS]

00:59:15   rolls his eyes like really think maybe [TS]

00:59:19   maybe a little th but it shows that this [TS]

00:59:22   isn't in terms of central themes though [TS]

00:59:24   it's great when you have [TS]

00:59:26   that is great when you have an entire [TS]

00:59:28   series that has been created and pretty [TS]

00:59:30   much one single handily written by one [TS]

00:59:32   person that was where the beginning the [TS]

00:59:34   middle and the end every major beat was [TS]

00:59:37   set up by one person wasn't that we're [TS]

00:59:39   so he was surprised to get a first [TS]

00:59:41   season pickup so now has to make up what [TS]

00:59:43   is what's gonna happen this season 2 [TS]

00:59:44   because now and when you listen to him [TS]

00:59:46   to the commentaries on the dvds he will [TS]

00:59:48   tell you exactly what he had in mind for [TS]

00:59:50   the entire series and the commentary for [TS]

00:59:53   whatever episode i was watching [TS]

00:59:54   yesterday he was saying that no this is [TS]

00:59:56   all about three questions [TS]

00:59:58   what do you want who are you and why [TS]

00:59:58   what do you want who are you and why [TS]

01:00:00   are you here every single character has [TS]

01:00:02   to address each of those questions that [TS]

01:00:04   will cause them to either get into [TS]

01:00:05   trouble or to save themselves and it [TS]

01:00:07   depends on which characters and is [TS]

01:00:09   dealing with one question where the [TS]

01:00:10   shadows are very much [TS]

01:00:12   what do you want i will use that i will [TS]

01:00:14   use your desires to give you things and [TS]

01:00:16   manipulate you [TS]

01:00:17   you know and then the vorlons are who [TS]

01:00:19   are you what you and then the and then [TS]

01:00:22   the the humans later on settle the [TS]

01:00:24   question after the kick-out the more [TS]

01:00:25   lines in the shadows the last of the of [TS]

01:00:28   the first ones they have to figure out [TS]

01:00:30   why are we here now [TS]

01:00:32   yeah it's the there there is that whole [TS]

01:00:35   notion let me know what does probably [TS]

01:00:37   the most tragic figure [TS]

01:00:40   and I think in the whole thing whom [TS]

01:00:42   ensures the most he's given were told [TS]

01:00:45   right because the you-know-who is it [TS]

01:00:48   major Baird shows up to you know tell me [TS]

01:00:51   a story chances of redemption and you [TS]

01:00:53   can throughout you can just sort of [TS]

01:00:55   watched I can i met your mother how many [TS]

01:00:57   snaps yeah how many chances Londo gonna [TS]

01:01:00   get up there he goes [TS]

01:01:01   i'm michael ansara the Klingon from [TS]

01:01:03   structure has the techno mage who says [TS]

01:01:05   you right you know it you know it [TS]

01:01:06   reinforces the unit will be emperor and [TS]

01:01:09   icy your hand reaching out and thousands [TS]

01:01:11   of people calling your name [TS]

01:01:12   oh my subjects know your victims your [TS]

01:01:14   victims like dang but he gets he gets [TS]

01:01:17   what he wants and it turns out what he [TS]

01:01:19   wants is horrible and she didn't want [TS]

01:01:21   any comes comes becomes by degrees to [TS]

01:01:25   accept to understand exactly what he's [TS]

01:01:28   done yes it's it's not as though he [TS]

01:01:30   becomes a bad guy he really figures out [TS]

01:01:32   that oh this is coming at two [TS]

01:01:33   high-priced I've done I've done very [TS]

01:01:36   very evil things like that like of the [TS]

01:01:38   the first like huge machination that [TS]

01:01:41   first political machinations did where [TS]

01:01:43   you know that he he knows that the [TS]

01:01:45   Emperor wants truce wants to bid for to [TS]

01:01:48   the end all these insane raids that he [TS]

01:01:50   and his men have been trying to trying [TS]

01:01:52   to manipulate and then the Londos the [TS]

01:01:55   only 12 here is dying words because just [TS]

01:01:57   because he's about to make a big [TS]

01:01:58   announcement dissolves in motion he just [TS]

01:02:00   happens to keel over and die and then he [TS]

01:02:03   says what did he say [TS]

01:02:05   and then he said continue continue my [TS]

01:02:07   work could bring bring my people to the [TS]

01:02:09   back to the Stars and then in privacy [TS]

01:02:11   one of his henchmen is like somebody [TS]

01:02:13   really say and this hollow expression [TS]

01:02:16   I'm petered Peter six face and the tone [TS]

01:02:19   in which he says this brilliance of the [TS]

01:02:21   character brands of the rider brought [TS]

01:02:23   into the actor he just hollow and ashen [TS]

01:02:26   face it he said we are both damned huh [TS]

01:02:30   man fade out like oh man is only gonna [TS]

01:02:34   be a week to the next episode so Babylon [TS]

01:02:37   5 was a forerunner when it came to 3d [TS]

01:02:40   graphics and today we think about 3d [TS]

01:02:42   graphics is something that anybody can [TS]

01:02:43   do and you know what you can you [TS]

01:02:45   actually can do it you just have to [TS]

01:02:47   learn how [TS]

01:02:48   here's where you can learn about stuff [TS]

01:02:50   like building 3d models and getting into [TS]

01:02:52   visual effects or all sorts of other [TS]

01:02:54   stuff [TS]

01:02:55   it's our sponsor its lynda.com at [TS]

01:02:58   lynda.com you have access to more than [TS]

01:03:00   2,000 high-quality engaging video [TS]

01:03:03   courses they're taught by the experts in [TS]

01:03:06   Linda state-of-the-art studio so the [TS]

01:03:08   videos look good they make sense they're [TS]

01:03:10   organized well and they're from the [TS]

01:03:12   experts and they're at levels from [TS]

01:03:14   beginner to advanced everywhere in [TS]

01:03:16   between [TS]

01:03:17   and there's a free trial that you can [TS]

01:03:19   get for listening to the incomparable [TS]

01:03:21   that let you try it out and then if you [TS]

01:03:22   like it there's a low monthly price to [TS]

01:03:24   get access to the entire library and you [TS]

01:03:27   know what your free trial covers every [TS]

01:03:28   single thing in their library so I [TS]

01:03:30   mentioned 3d earlier [TS]

01:03:32   among the things that you can learn [TS]

01:03:34   using lynda.com unity Maya zbrush Mudbox [TS]

01:03:39   vray cinema 4d these are all tools in [TS]

01:03:42   the gaming development media or film [TS]

01:03:43   space [TS]

01:03:44   those are all there you could be [TS]

01:03:45   designing the next Babylon 5 special [TS]

01:03:48   effects by learning it and lynda.com [TS]

01:03:50   that's a little too much for you [TS]

01:03:53   how about Apple related stuff unix [TS]

01:03:55   objective-c there's iCloud tutorials [TS]

01:03:58   Final Cut logic I work I photo [TS]

01:04:00   garageband Mavericks cocoa ipad tips and [TS]

01:04:05   tricks all of that stuff is there [TS]

01:04:06   your windows kind of person windows 8 1 [TS]

01:04:08   is a new course they've got Linda lots [TS]

01:04:11   of design stuff all the adobe creative [TS]

01:04:13   suite stuff is there and for developers [TS]

01:04:16   java HTML jquery sequel wordpress [TS]

01:04:19   javascript you name it they've got [TS]

01:04:21   courses about it [TS]

01:04:22   photoshop excel photography videography [TS]

01:04:25   songwriting [TS]

01:04:26   screenwriting George Lucas I just [TS]

01:04:29   mentioning that hum jo Straczynski maybe [TS]

01:04:32   you don't need that course George Lucas [TS]

01:04:33   maybe you do [TS]

01:04:34   so here's what you need to do to sign up [TS]

01:04:37   for lynda.com and try this stuff out you [TS]

01:04:40   get a free trial go to linda.com ly [TS]

01:04:42   nba.com slash incomparable that's all [TS]

01:04:45   you need to do you get a free trial [TS]

01:04:47   access the entire lynda.com library all [TS]

01:04:50   of those courses every little bit of it [TS]

01:04:52   not just a little introductory sample [TS]

01:04:54   all of the course material is available [TS]

01:04:55   for free by visiting lynda.com / [TS]

01:04:58   incomparable so ILY nba.com slash [TS]

01:05:03   incomparable that's where you need to go [TS]

01:05:05   I think you're going to love it and [TS]

01:05:06   you're going to want to learn more and [TS]

01:05:08   more and more using a great video [TS]

01:05:10   coursework at lynda.com and thank you to [TS]

01:05:12   linda.com for sponsoring the [TS]

01:05:14   incomparable and there's so many [TS]

01:05:16   different great great arcs and the love [TS]

01:05:19   the Centauri stuff when they're on [TS]

01:05:23   Centauri Prime with the crazy nephew of [TS]

01:05:25   the old Emperor in the new emperor [TS]

01:05:27   cartagia such a great arc right at the [TS]

01:05:31   little mini arc inside the story of this [TS]

01:05:33   mad Emperor and you realize that Londo [TS]

01:05:35   is got together weigh more than most of [TS]

01:05:37   the door in and that frame to be a real [TS]

01:05:39   Patriot he needs to he needs to be so [TS]

01:05:42   patriotic that he kills the Emperor [TS]

01:05:44   because the Emperor is going to lead [TS]

01:05:45   them to literally to destruction right [TS]

01:05:47   the shadows are going to cover the four [TS]

01:05:48   lines are going to come and blow up [TS]

01:05:50   their planet because the good guys right [TS]

01:05:51   that's why they blow up whole planets [TS]

01:05:53   with the planet killing but the genius [TS]

01:05:55   is this show is it's not it winds up not [TS]

01:05:57   being him who kills the Emperor yes it [TS]

01:06:00   totally submerse your expectations ahead [TS]

01:06:02   and that so answer since he is a story [TS]

01:06:04   about that where he expected it to be [TS]

01:06:05   londo and then he was writing that he [TS]

01:06:07   was writing that screenplay and as he's [TS]

01:06:09   writing it [TS]

01:06:10   he said he said they're basically so no [TS]

01:06:12   I'm gonna do this like yeah alright yeah [TS]

01:06:14   well-well v revolves so powerfully from [TS]

01:06:18   this buffoon right you know who's [TS]

01:06:20   basically you know [TS]

01:06:22   Mondo's in a whipping boy on it to the [TS]

01:06:25   guy to the guy what's worse when your [TS]

01:06:27   family thinks you're a loser really [TS]

01:06:29   doesn't he doesn't he doesn't said they [TS]

01:06:30   don't send you to lose your post they [TS]

01:06:32   make you the assistance is necessary to [TS]

01:06:35   grow and then he [TS]

01:06:36   the first one who stands up to morning [TS]

01:06:38   where's that crazy and Morneau is there [TS]

01:06:41   something you want me to do the only [TS]

01:06:42   thing i'd like to see you is your head [TS]

01:06:44   on a pike and then I would wave to you [TS]

01:06:45   like this with which happens later [TS]

01:06:47   yes it is how i would like to live long [TS]

01:06:49   enough to see your head popping up like [TS]

01:06:51   as a warning that sometimes things come [TS]

01:06:53   to higher price I would look up until [TS]

01:06:56   you're dry lifeless eyes and smile and [TS]

01:06:58   wave to you like this and then later [TS]

01:07:01   bring that for me mr. work in a later [TS]

01:07:03   and he watches is there anything i can I [TS]

01:07:05   I can do for you and Angie says about [TS]

01:07:07   die [TS]

01:07:08   excuse me are you willing to do that [TS]

01:07:11   yeah well and also the backbone he shows [TS]

01:07:13   even to the the his boss to Londo as [TS]

01:07:16   he's cowering where they said there's [TS]

01:07:17   some final execution order for some [TS]

01:07:20   operation that blonde the Londos just [TS]

01:07:22   sending veer off design he's begging [TS]

01:07:24   Londo reconsider this is a bad mistake [TS]

01:07:26   this is a terrible terrible thing and [TS]

01:07:28   then like what I have to do this myself [TS]

01:07:30   and then veer when the most one of these [TS]

01:07:33   perfect character moments says just [TS]

01:07:35   stiff stiffly says no I will go to i [TS]

01:07:39   will go do this thing you need me to do [TS]

01:07:41   but at some point I'm going to remind [TS]

01:07:43   you that I tried to talk you out [TS]

01:07:45   yeah and then let's that linger as he [TS]

01:07:48   leaves but there's a joke [TS]

01:07:49   there's a there's a funny joke when when [TS]

01:07:52   major Garrett rod Barry says says you [TS]

01:07:55   will be over and you will be in for [TS]

01:07:57   after the other one is dead and you're [TS]

01:07:59   like oh what a funny thing and get when [TS]

01:08:02   that moment comes when of women [TS]

01:08:04   flashforward we see that veer is going [TS]

01:08:06   to be the Emperor after jakar strangles [TS]

01:08:09   Londo that it turns out is a mercy [TS]

01:08:11   killing that that a there's going to be [TS]

01:08:15   a good Emperor you know right i mean [TS]

01:08:17   it's not a joke and and we see why he's [TS]

01:08:19   gotten here and he has progressed in [TS]

01:08:21   this incredible way from when we first [TS]

01:08:23   team in fact there was always juxtaposed [TS]

01:08:25   with linear played by Bill me another [TS]

01:08:27   kind of go wrangle Robbins actor from a [TS]

01:08:30   Anthony Anthony he will send them to the [TS]

01:08:33   cornfield and um you know it at the time [TS]

01:08:37   it seemed like well you know he's going [TS]

01:08:38   to be this month like figure and take [TS]

01:08:40   care of the land and then veer is this [TS]

01:08:41   buffoonish figure and in the end here [TS]

01:08:43   gets a much better path and linear sort [TS]

01:08:45   of doesn't go anywhere and i would [TS]

01:08:46   actually argue is the only character who [TS]

01:08:48   never who doesn't get redeemed [TS]

01:08:50   he his last act is cowardly and awful [TS]

01:08:52   and he leaves in disgrace and that's the [TS]

01:08:54   last we see of him [TS]

01:08:56   interesting how that happened and that [TS]

01:08:57   also supports expectations i think of [TS]

01:09:00   the show although not executed quite as [TS]

01:09:02   cleanly always some other stone was [TS]

01:09:04   poorly done and I'm sure was set up and [TS]

01:09:06   I don't really like that linear his [TS]

01:09:08   character got so assassinated at the end [TS]

01:09:10   but it is interesting in contrast to [TS]

01:09:12   veer who gets built up into this really [TS]

01:09:13   dramatically different thing from how we [TS]

01:09:16   first saw him but I think that's because [TS]

01:09:17   he never evolved he was the one [TS]

01:09:20   character we didn't evolve he had a [TS]

01:09:21   crush on the Len and he never got over [TS]

01:09:23   it and that pretty much clear and the [TS]

01:09:27   result get over it right we did snap out [TS]

01:09:30   of it was another example of how we have [TS]

01:09:32   to let go of things from the past and I [TS]

01:09:34   the one that's just hanging on for dear [TS]

01:09:36   life and he's hoping my kids going to [TS]

01:09:39   come to her senses the other great [TS]

01:09:42   relationship with Marcus and the Rangers [TS]

01:09:44   the whole reassess the Rangers yes I'm [TS]

01:09:47   not shot at home a battle is yes that [TS]

01:09:50   that whole arc and and I was a spinoff [TS]

01:09:52   waiting to happen exam didn't have a [TS]

01:09:54   broad and market he was just such a [TS]

01:09:55   great character anything yeah yeah that [TS]

01:09:59   was good and that was a one of those [TS]

01:10:00   examples to I i have read my notes I [TS]

01:10:02   have like four or five things I haven't [TS]

01:10:03   mentioned that i want to mention one of [TS]

01:10:04   them is the lord of the rings which is [TS]

01:10:06   just as he totally obsessed Florida [TS]

01:10:08   rings the Rangers are lifted right out [TS]

01:10:11   there this Caza doom and in whose work [TS]

01:10:14   and all falls into a bottomless pit and [TS]

01:10:16   emerges transformed and here we have [TS]

01:10:17   Zaha do more shared and does the exact [TS]

01:10:19   same thing [TS]

01:10:20   Lori n the the references to lord of the [TS]

01:10:23   rings throughout this and it's like a [TS]

01:10:25   copy of Lord of the Rings but it is [TS]

01:10:27   source material for this story and [TS]

01:10:29   that's fascinating and if you go back [TS]

01:10:31   and look at it especially now that the [TS]

01:10:33   lord of the rings movies were made so so [TS]

01:10:35   people have experienced that may be more [TS]

01:10:36   than just reading the book a couple of [TS]

01:10:37   times I imagine since he read it a [TS]

01:10:39   thousand times but this that 15 is full [TS]

01:10:43   of Lord of the Rings references like [TS]

01:10:44   bursting with rings and the Rangers are [TS]

01:10:47   the best example I right but there's so [TS]

01:10:49   many other things that he throws in that [TS]

01:10:51   you know if you know yeah we did with [TS]

01:10:52   the Ministry of 1984 always need more [TS]

01:10:55   absolutely you know just these little [TS]

01:10:58   settle things that he would totally now [TS]

01:11:00   and then [TS]

01:11:01   and of course Daffy Duck Creek and [TS]

01:11:03   not-so-subtle things like the we have [TS]

01:11:04   two entire episodes that are fairly [TS]

01:11:06   standalone that are devoted to the [TS]

01:11:08   Arthurian legend right yes Grail and [TS]

01:11:10   can't get the other one but the other [TS]

01:11:12   one actually happens to be the very [TS]

01:11:13   first one [TS]

01:11:14   next I late delivery from Avalon right [TS]

01:11:16   it's very first right first full episode [TS]

01:11:18   of Babylon 5 that are mostly full [TS]

01:11:20   episode that we watched and that was [TS]

01:11:22   that was the one where make my friends [TS]

01:11:23   and i turned to each other and said [TS]

01:11:24   that's because pretty good you want to [TS]

01:11:26   get together early next week and watch [TS]

01:11:28   that's what Michael that's that Michael [TS]

01:11:30   your micro yards out yeah that was I [TS]

01:11:32   think that was what drew is saying but [TS]

01:11:34   the episode held our attention [TS]

01:11:36   Jason I'd like to grab onto what you [TS]

01:11:38   said about Lord of the Rings real quick [TS]

01:11:40   and write this on the table there's one [TS]

01:11:41   there's one big difference between this [TS]

01:11:43   and Lord of the Rings and that is season [TS]

01:11:45   five Lord of the Rings in uh with [TS]

01:11:49   aragorn taking the throne and that's you [TS]

01:11:53   know that's that's pretty much the end [TS]

01:11:54   of the story behind the always go with [TS]

01:11:56   the elves go into the West I guess right [TS]

01:11:58   that's the air leaving town [TS]

01:11:59   yeah any linux things yes all 47 endings [TS]

01:12:04   of order india season five is really [TS]

01:12:06   interesting because not in its and many [TS]

01:12:10   people regarded as a lesser season and [TS]

01:12:12   and I'll out I I'll grant that but a [TS]

01:12:16   part of the whole five-year plan of this [TS]

01:12:18   show even if some parts of it got [TS]

01:12:20   accelerated indonesian season four was [TS]

01:12:22   the building of an empire and then [TS]

01:12:24   season five is about what happens when [TS]

01:12:27   you've got that in dryer hear you [TS]

01:12:30   we're in charge now we've gotten rid of [TS]

01:12:32   the four lines we've eliminated the [TS]

01:12:34   problem on earth now what do we do and I [TS]

01:12:37   moved out of my parents basement now now [TS]

01:12:40   what exactly and and I and I think [TS]

01:12:43   that's I think that's the most [TS]

01:12:45   fascinating decision that JMS made it's [TS]

01:12:48   the hardest season to right and it is it [TS]

01:12:51   is not as successful as the season [TS]

01:12:53   because the challenges so much greater [TS]

01:12:54   here all of a sudden the stories about [TS]

01:12:58   building rather than rather than [TS]

01:13:01   opposing something it's that it's it's a [TS]

01:13:04   year-long Dana mom and I can I think his [TS]

01:13:07   original plan before he accelerated [TS]

01:13:09   things because he thought that there [TS]

01:13:10   that they weren't gonna get a fifth [TS]

01:13:12   season he could smell the the end [TS]

01:13:14   he didn't want to blow it I i assume [TS]

01:13:16   that the fifth season normally would [TS]

01:13:18   have been sort of half the Civil War and [TS]

01:13:21   then half picking up the pieces at the [TS]

01:13:22   end I don't believe it would have been [TS]

01:13:23   like just the civil war and that would [TS]

01:13:26   be the end I think he was firmly [TS]

01:13:27   committed to 22 doing some of that stuff [TS]

01:13:30   because that I that's just his gameplan [TS]

01:13:32   claimed that it was going to run into [TS]

01:13:35   like the first four five or six eps that [TS]

01:13:37   series for would have run into the first [TS]

01:13:40   four or five or six episodes of the 15 [TS]

01:13:43   and then he would pick up the pieces so [TS]

01:13:44   he had some padding to do because now he [TS]

01:13:46   had he had to find another story arc to [TS]

01:13:48   hang the whole season on but you know I [TS]

01:13:51   i agree with you buy it was not it was [TS]

01:13:53   not my favorite their stuff in there [TS]

01:13:55   that I actually looking back i really [TS]

01:13:56   like but I think it's that I think it [TS]

01:13:58   feels diluted like like not not diluted [TS]

01:14:01   like diluted that it's it's it's just [TS]

01:14:03   like you know an important piece was [TS]

01:14:06   missing and he put some other stuff in [TS]

01:14:08   and but that is the point i mean not to [TS]

01:14:10   go back to another sci-fi reference and [TS]

01:14:13   and say that you know the end of [TS]

01:14:15   watchmen nothing ever ends but that is [TS]

01:14:16   sort of the point that he's making here [TS]

01:14:18   is there's no end to the story [TS]

01:14:19   it keeps going and sometimes what [TS]

01:14:21   happens after the big dramatic moment is [TS]

01:14:23   just as interesting as ending on the big [TS]

01:14:25   dramatic moment which is that when the [TS]

01:14:27   shadow form on war is resolved and [TS]

01:14:29   there's like no now what it's like we [TS]

01:14:30   gotta go back to earth now and you know [TS]

01:14:33   we can't be it's not yeah it's over it's [TS]

01:14:35   not over it's never over [TS]

01:14:36   I thought that there's one big thing I [TS]

01:14:39   really liked two things I really didn't [TS]

01:14:41   like and the rest was kind of okay I [TS]

01:14:43   like I liked that I was brilliant to see [TS]

01:14:46   that jakar is now being elevated to [TS]

01:14:49   essentially the Gandhi of the novels [TS]

01:14:52   like there's just like their disciples [TS]

01:14:53   of Jaquan and yes cars book you write [TS]

01:14:56   this book that becomes a spiritual book [TS]

01:14:58   and it's out of his own control [TS]

01:15:00   it's just it's just part of that [TS]

01:15:01   graduation of you are the younger [TS]

01:15:03   generation but now you're going to be [TS]

01:15:05   the advisors to the younger generation [TS]

01:15:06   that's a total different things you have [TS]

01:15:08   to deal with but the things that kind of [TS]

01:15:10   the two things that kind of got me and [TS]

01:15:11   they're kind of related is that Byron I [TS]

01:15:14   just never got now i agree cuz he just [TS]

01:15:16   he was a soldier email is telepathic [TS]

01:15:18   line is Byron i have long flowing hair [TS]

01:15:22   I'm named after Romantic poet [TS]

01:15:24   I have an english accent and i'm here to [TS]

01:15:27   tell you you're a wonderful woman mrs. [TS]

01:15:29   it's like for heaven's sake that was [TS]

01:15:31   what ruined the entire i think i [TS]

01:15:33   probably could have bought into the [TS]

01:15:35   whole telepath thing in series five that [TS]

01:15:37   but I just never saw any chemistry with [TS]

01:15:40   byron and Lita and that turned me after [TS]

01:15:42   the whole thing I mean a false ringing [TS]

01:15:44   love story is a very quick way to make [TS]

01:15:46   me check right out [TS]

01:15:47   yeah it was clear that there was some [TS]

01:15:50   filler needed it was also you know after [TS]

01:15:53   everything that happened your kind of [TS]

01:15:55   this for your roller coaster ride [TS]

01:15:58   haha and now it's like okay you know [TS]

01:16:02   i'll look you know move doing now we [TS]

01:16:04   have a government with to set up some [TS]

01:16:05   stationery and office you have to choose [TS]

01:16:09   a logo we all look we all know how [TS]

01:16:10   difficult it is to decide on the logos [TS]

01:16:12   very hard [TS]

01:16:13   everybody's got an opinion it's one of [TS]

01:16:15   those things that annoyed me about star [TS]

01:16:16   wars with the ended right now all of a [TS]

01:16:18   sudden it's like okay you know we go up [TS]

01:16:19   the next death star and yeah everything [TS]

01:16:21   at once on you know yeah how you know [TS]

01:16:23   the couches the chaos everything's [TS]

01:16:26   finished everything everything's fine [TS]

01:16:28   goodness party we have to end it [TS]

01:16:32   yeah yeah that's what in other words [TS]

01:16:34   they didn't do anything around with it [TS]

01:16:35   didn't even move to the ramifications of [TS]

01:16:37   now we must rebuild and welcomes a that [TS]

01:16:39   was the end of the series and they were [TS]

01:16:40   going to do anymore the nice thing about [TS]

01:16:41   tvs you can I mean Straczynski I think [TS]

01:16:43   very he wasn't he wasn't going to leave [TS]

01:16:46   himself time to tell about what happened [TS]

01:16:48   after i think the season five he just [TS]

01:16:50   ended up leaving himself a little too [TS]

01:16:51   much time because he he needed to cram [TS]

01:16:54   that stuff into season 4 because they [TS]

01:16:55   literally the pten Education Network [TS]

01:16:58   package thing was dying literally was it [TS]

01:17:01   was ending and they got saved by cable [TS]

01:17:04   it was being sent beyond the rim [TS]

01:17:06   yes that's right or into the West [TS]

01:17:08   depending on if it's Lord of the Rings [TS]

01:17:09   are not uh yeah what I had a couple of [TS]

01:17:14   things I want to mention that on my list [TS]

01:17:15   i want to mention the relationship [TS]

01:17:16   between sheridan and delenn because i [TS]

01:17:19   think it's really interesting i'm not a [TS]

01:17:20   I'm not so infantile they have these [TS]

01:17:22   things the the shippers people who are [TS]

01:17:23   very very very very invested in certain [TS]

01:17:26   relationships often times not [TS]

01:17:27   relationships that actually are in the [TS]

01:17:29   show but i want to say that if I've ever [TS]

01:17:32   identified with shippers in any form is [TS]

01:17:34   probably the relationship with john [TS]

01:17:36   sheridan and delenn [TS]

01:17:37   I i love that relationship i love [TS]

01:17:39   everything about it i love that it is a [TS]

01:17:40   people getting to know each other yes [TS]

01:17:42   one of them is kind of mumbling bari [TS]

01:17:44   transformed into a half-human by a [TS]

01:17:47   cocoon and all that and you still got [TS]

01:17:49   half a bone airhead restless and i know [TS]

01:17:51   i know it's Christmas ok yeah-and-a-half [TS]

01:17:53   a bone in her head that she's got hair [TS]

01:17:55   and yeah okay that's all great but they [TS]

01:17:58   get to know each other and and they work [TS]

01:18:01   together in their build mutual respect [TS]

01:18:03   and it's the sweet romance that plays [TS]

01:18:05   out over a lot of time they get married [TS]

01:18:07   and at the end they have a baby and [TS]

01:18:08   isn't that nice i really like that [TS]

01:18:10   relationship with it but it's also they [TS]

01:18:12   get to know each other yeah 3 scene [TS]

01:18:14   where you know they both have to stay [TS]

01:18:16   she has to watch over me he's trying to [TS]

01:18:17   sleep on that minbari torture board [TS]

01:18:19   keeps falling off and she's very mad and [TS]

01:18:24   like yeah i mean i i'm gonna put up with [TS]

01:18:26   this because and you know we see that [TS]

01:18:30   it's me again and again you share [TS]

01:18:31   insurance but he's one learns want to go [TS]

01:18:33   through this i think the one point where [TS]

01:18:36   sheridan loses it is in the shadows i do [TS]

01:18:40   when he encounters morning and everyone [TS]

01:18:43   is wailing on him like you can't do this [TS]

01:18:45   like you can't like you know and [TS]

01:18:47   Garibaldi quits I'm sorry I'm just not [TS]

01:18:49   going through this i mean you know you [TS]

01:18:51   are you were just going way off the deep [TS]

01:18:53   end and even Zacks kind of looking at [TS]

01:18:55   kind of funny [TS]

01:18:56   where is he where is delenn then yeah [TS]

01:18:58   and then eventually internet all of us [TS]

01:19:02   and they don't get all of a sudden you [TS]

01:19:03   get you a few don't know what the hell's [TS]

01:19:04   going on you got it you got take step [TS]

01:19:06   back [TS]

01:19:06   calm down i got tell you what's going on [TS]

01:19:08   and you and she doesn't want to and he's [TS]

01:19:10   like you better tell me then she has I [TS]

01:19:12   think the best lines in that episode [TS]

01:19:13   this I'll tell you but you're never [TS]

01:19:15   gonna sleep again for the rest of your [TS]

01:19:17   life comes with a little price but I do [TS]

01:19:22   i do love that relationship that just [TS]

01:19:24   it's one of the rare TV relationships [TS]

01:19:26   that I felt I think because of the time [TS]

01:19:28   they spent building it and the fact that [TS]

01:19:30   it was it didn't go have a big [TS]

01:19:31   back-and-forth of drama of will there [TS]

01:19:34   won't say it was a it was a build and it [TS]

01:19:36   felt real to me even if one of Eric come [TS]

01:19:39   out of the very very very very real [TS]

01:19:41   because it even there [TS]

01:19:43   j michael Straczynski refuse to just [TS]

01:19:45   lock characters and archetype because [TS]

01:19:47   remember that after after sheridan dies [TS]

01:19:49   the Len goes a little [TS]

01:19:50   bit nuts she beats you you remember that [TS]

01:19:53   oh yeah you are you are reminded that [TS]

01:19:55   she was a very very fierce warrior and [TS]

01:19:57   that's when she starts piling the right [TS]

01:19:59   white star and say well okay we boy [TS]

01:20:00   we've managed to escape from the skin of [TS]

01:20:02   our teeth now let's turn around and blow [TS]

01:20:05   them to hell she is mad and she is not [TS]

01:20:09   going she's going to take our aggression [TS]

01:20:10   on anybody who looks like an enemy who [TS]

01:20:12   is in a ship that is within firing range [TS]

01:20:14   I that is that is not again it's not [TS]

01:20:16   that I hope this is not supposed there's [TS]

01:20:18   not going to be like a rant against you [TS]

01:20:20   know against the star trek but that's [TS]

01:20:22   the difference between those two styles [TS]

01:20:24   where you would never have some wall [TS]

01:20:26   you know you really mustn't turn all [TS]

01:20:28   anger into hey dog it's like no lock on [TS]

01:20:32   photons and basically blasting the hell [TS]

01:20:34   they killed my son screw him [TS]

01:20:35   yeah they they lost their ability they [TS]

01:20:37   lost their right to live when they [TS]

01:20:39   pissed me off to the degree that they [TS]

01:20:40   piss me off and and and only one man has [TS]

01:20:44   survived contact with a shadow with an [TS]

01:20:47   NRI cruiser he's behind he is behind you [TS]

01:20:50   or in front of me [TS]

01:20:52   if you value allow your life be [TS]

01:20:54   somewhere and somewhere else i'm sorry i [TS]

01:20:58   started step in your life but yeah that [TS]

01:20:59   was the plan [TS]

01:21:01   so many beautiful view so many beautiful [TS]

01:21:03   beautiful lines in this whole Syria and [TS]

01:21:06   are our characters get to make mistakes [TS]

01:21:10   and do bad things and it doesn't make [TS]

01:21:11   them bad people they make mistakes and [TS]

01:21:13   where they do things out of rage or out [TS]

01:21:16   of miss you know misconception and [TS]

01:21:18   that's like people like people do and [TS]

01:21:20   the evil when we see here's another [TS]

01:21:21   great thing we mention 1984 in the [TS]

01:21:23   Ministry of peace and things like that [TS]

01:21:25   Stravinsky's worldview is fascinating [TS]

01:21:27   evil true evil is a bureaucracy it's [TS]

01:21:32   banal the true evil is the guy standing [TS]

01:21:36   onstage saying i'll give you an armband [TS]

01:21:37   if you you know report for the Night [TS]

01:21:40   Watch that's the true evil or when we go [TS]

01:21:42   to xel-há doom and and meet the shadows [TS]

01:21:45   yes melissa gilbert is there which is a [TS]

01:21:47   nice little bit of stunt casting because [TS]

01:21:49   she was married to bruce boxleitner but [TS]

01:21:51   also there's a guy there's like a [TS]

01:21:54   gray-haired guy with a mustache who is [TS]

01:21:56   the most boring guy in the world because [TS]

01:21:58   that's the whole point is heat it's not [TS]

01:22:00   like he's not meeting the grand pooh-bah [TS]

01:22:03   Emperor [TS]

01:22:04   who's some awesome shadow dude he's like [TS]

01:22:06   this board super boring guy because [TS]

01:22:09   that's you know I i love that message [TS]

01:22:12   that you know evil is not super dramatic [TS]

01:22:14   and exciting it's actually kind of [TS]

01:22:16   boring and insidious and and you know it [TS]

01:22:18   it's been all it's not that exciting if [TS]

01:22:21   you look at the flooring and are the [TS]

01:22:23   evil beet with the excitement factor i [TS]

01:22:26   mean if you were to look at this story [TS]

01:22:28   sort of from the outside not knowing any [TS]

01:22:30   of the players and just kind of a really [TS]

01:22:32   black-and-white maybe sort of generic [TS]

01:22:34   fairytale version one of the biggest [TS]

01:22:36   villains and the entire thing would be [TS]

01:22:37   Londo but right when you look at it from [TS]

01:22:40   the inside of the story he is he's one [TS]

01:22:43   of the characters though I at least come [TS]

01:22:46   to love the most yes all of them i mean [TS]

01:22:48   the poor guys gonna have a keeper on his [TS]

01:22:49   you know short so you know yeah this is [TS]

01:22:52   a habit his weekend shifted our [TS]

01:22:54   sympathies towards him a little bit [TS]

01:22:56   knowing this was not gonna end anything [TS]

01:22:59   the way he thought know he was gonna get [TS]

01:23:00   everything he wanted and I can be [TS]

01:23:02   careful what you wish for because you [TS]

01:23:03   might get it and so we got everything [TS]

01:23:04   you wanted but there's definitely a [TS]

01:23:08   certain point where I think students he [TS]

01:23:10   tries to soften the tone of that [TS]

01:23:13   character a little bit so when we see [TS]

01:23:16   the tragic fall we're not going yeah [TS]

01:23:18   he's getting what he deserves we kind of [TS]

01:23:19   feel bad for Mike the guy just made a [TS]

01:23:21   lot of back bad choices that's that's [TS]

01:23:24   where he doesn't he doesn't let us off [TS]

01:23:26   the hook by saying these are the good [TS]

01:23:27   guys these are the bad guys the reason [TS]

01:23:29   why the bad guys are bad is because [TS]

01:23:30   they're evil [TS]

01:23:31   it's no because here we'll walk you in [TS]

01:23:35   all the way through the decision that [TS]

01:23:37   the process that led to Londo ordering [TS]

01:23:39   the destruction of the NAR homeworld we [TS]

01:23:41   will let you and we will put we will [TS]

01:23:43   basically put you in a position where [TS]

01:23:44   you figure out that he felt as though he [TS]

01:23:46   was doing the right thing for his people [TS]

01:23:48   get there in the end this extends in so [TS]

01:23:51   many different directions where you feel [TS]

01:23:54   you feel like that one of the most [TS]

01:23:56   intense moments was when mi watching the [TS]

01:23:59   show was when Garibaldi determines coats [TS]

01:24:03   and hands over Sheridan to Earthforce [TS]

01:24:05   EarthGov and he's and this is before [TS]

01:24:08   this is the episode before we find out [TS]

01:24:10   that he's actually being manipulated and [TS]

01:24:12   but he did but he resents get set it up [TS]

01:24:14   so that he's just a paranoid individual [TS]

01:24:16   to begin with [TS]

01:24:17   he has already established that he [TS]

01:24:18   thinks that's the commander's gone off [TS]

01:24:20   the rails he will do what he thinks is [TS]

01:24:21   right to end the situation and as he's [TS]

01:24:24   sitting there in that even in that that [TS]

01:24:26   subway car on Mars as he's just done [TS]

01:24:29   this me sort of like dealing with the [TS]

01:24:30   fact that i can't believe i guess i'm [TS]

01:24:32   sorry i had to do that but I'm sorry I [TS]

01:24:33   feel like crap and i remember but [TS]

01:24:35   sitting in my chair in my living room [TS]

01:24:38   thinking it because he's an alcoholic [TS]

01:24:40   things we struggling with alcoholism I [TS]

01:24:43   remember thinking why don't you go have [TS]

01:24:44   a drink but because God and then amazed [TS]

01:24:49   that i had that sort of revulsion over [TS]

01:24:51   what he did but again it's not the if we [TS]

01:24:53   had just been introduced to this guy [TS]

01:24:54   who's to serve a weaselly turn Cody type [TS]

01:24:56   of guy and of course he's the person [TS]

01:24:57   who's going to turn them in because he's [TS]

01:24:59   a weasel and he's a turncoat and you [TS]

01:25:00   feel as though no this was unfortunately [TS]

01:25:02   the end of he was he's been boxed into a [TS]

01:25:05   situation which the other two buttons in [TS]

01:25:07   front of them one of them was turning [TS]

01:25:09   shared and the other one was a struggle [TS]

01:25:12   against it and he push the big red [TS]

01:25:13   flashing button and and we know and we [TS]

01:25:15   know that he has his own moral center [TS]

01:25:17   right because again with the you know [TS]

01:25:19   more than stuff you're gonna do this I'm [TS]

01:25:21   out of here [TS]

01:25:21   here's here's my gun here's my badge so [TS]

01:25:23   we've already seen that you know he is [TS]

01:25:26   not going to follow the chain of command [TS]

01:25:27   he's going to stand up and I think you [TS]

01:25:30   know in his own mind he thought he was [TS]

01:25:32   doing the right thing when he handed [TS]

01:25:33   them over and obviously I think you [TS]

01:25:35   learned later on maybe he might have [TS]

01:25:38   been manipulated a little bit [TS]

01:25:39   compare that episode stylistically by [TS]

01:25:42   the way to the to the first season of [TS]

01:25:44   the pilot that episode where where [TS]

01:25:46   Garibaldi cells are shared and has so [TS]

01:25:49   many different stylistic flourishes the [TS]

01:25:51   the Mars subway to bride shows that they [TS]

01:25:54   were real aeration there there yet and [TS]

01:25:56   they've got this is what i doing back on [TS]

01:25:58   Mars right pick up a cgi working right [TS]

01:26:00   and they've got the compositing right so [TS]

01:26:02   it feels much more like you're actually [TS]

01:26:03   there and then the scene work sharon has [TS]

01:26:06   taken is a real and i do believe Star [TS]

01:26:10   Trek started stealing the babylon five [TS]

01:26:11   directors and then they found some [TS]

01:26:12   really good directors that is such it's [TS]

01:26:14   it's it's strobe light they had a still [TS]

01:26:16   photographer on the set and they took [TS]

01:26:18   stills of the action and intercut the [TS]

01:26:20   stills with the live action and it is it [TS]

01:26:23   is i mean it's really good it is not [TS]

01:26:27   necessarily microstates one of the best [TS]

01:26:29   things ever but if they were true [TS]

01:26:30   lying interesting style things which you [TS]

01:26:33   know in season one they're like trying [TS]

01:26:35   to get a show out yet that was not my [TS]

01:26:37   favorite part of it I really thought [TS]

01:26:38   that was just a little too artsy for the [TS]

01:26:40   ship was bravely my training too hard [TS]

01:26:42   but think how far they came from like I [TS]

01:26:44   mean season when they're struggling to [TS]

01:26:45   get like the sets vertical and it was [TS]

01:26:48   not very well I just I just didn't like [TS]

01:26:51   what it did [TS]

01:26:52   yeah I i have to send somebody was like [TS]

01:26:54   hey I've got an idea let's do this and [TS]

01:26:56   get a still photographer in here and [TS]

01:26:57   we'll see how it goes and it is jarring [TS]

01:26:59   to on top of everything else but i love [TS]

01:27:02   that they tried stuff like that because [TS]

01:27:04   it had been they had come so far from [TS]

01:27:06   friends [TS]

01:27:07   that's another thing about this show is [TS]

01:27:08   how how much they got out of so little [TS]

01:27:11   they didn't always have the best actors [TS]

01:27:14   the scripts weren't always the best i [TS]

01:27:16   think you get to the point somewhere [TS]

01:27:19   towards season 4 season 5 where [TS]

01:27:22   stravinsky's fatigue is starting to show [TS]

01:27:24   absolutely and and the line and the law [TS]

01:27:27   he's going for the first right answer [TS]

01:27:29   instead of the second more creative [TS]

01:27:31   right answer in terms of ways of talking [TS]

01:27:34   but there's there's some kind of weird [TS]

01:27:37   alchemy when Jeff Conaway who is not a [TS]

01:27:40   tremendous actor can be an effective [TS]

01:27:43   character uh and and has had some great [TS]

01:27:46   moments there are a claudia christian is [TS]

01:27:52   it just sort of comes out of nowhere [TS]

01:27:55   from being the stripper in hexed to [TS]

01:27:58   being a to being a really formidable uh [TS]

01:28:04   military presence you know they had no [TS]

01:28:08   money they had no consistent schedule [TS]

01:28:11   all they had was the sheer will to get [TS]

01:28:15   the epic to get the show made and uh and [TS]

01:28:19   an army of fans online that we have you [TS]

01:28:22   know this isn't that the incomparable [TS]

01:28:23   written remit as i understand it is the [TS]

01:28:26   show itself and sure enough behind it [TS]

01:28:28   but but you can't talk about Babylon 5 [TS]

01:28:31   without talking about records SF TV [TS]

01:28:33   Babylon 5 moderated moderated [TS]

01:28:36   Pastore and and and and all and the the [TS]

01:28:41   the fandom relationship the first first [TS]

01:28:43   show to have a direct back and forth [TS]

01:28:46   with the creator and the fans on the [TS]

01:28:48   internet ask me a question I'll give you [TS]

01:28:50   an answer and you know sometimes that [TS]

01:28:52   won't cause it'll spoil the show but [TS]

01:28:54   i'll try to explain to you what i was [TS]

01:28:56   thinking and amazing it great I mean and [TS]

01:28:59   he managed to make the best and exacts [TS]

01:29:01   characters a good example because you [TS]

01:29:02   were dealing with Bobby from taxi [TS]

01:29:04   I you know I think you know can be great [TS]

01:29:07   man I mean I mean come on [TS]

01:29:09   um but a key light this is why i gotta [TS]

01:29:12   work with i'm gonna i'm gonna try and [TS]

01:29:14   make him like you know a super-soldier [TS]

01:29:16   I'm gonna play you know the rules that [TS]

01:29:19   he knows how to play and make the exact [TS]

01:29:21   that type of character but then there's [TS]

01:29:23   that moment where he takes off the [TS]

01:29:24   armband you know and also like oh you [TS]

01:29:26   know Zach's not just the guys taking 15 [TS]

01:29:29   credits from them you know a week from [TS]

01:29:30   tonight watch our he's he also got a [TS]

01:29:33   little bit of backbone he also evolved [TS]

01:29:35   and the fact that he wasn't afraid to [TS]

01:29:37   kill off characters either you know that [TS]

01:29:40   you know people who have been around [TS]

01:29:41   suddenly Oh guy there's a shadow ship by [TS]

01:29:44   better tell someone about it and not [TS]

01:29:47   seeing you anymore max kefir now goodbye [TS]

01:29:50   pretty boy [TS]

01:29:51   so mom was the characters forward to die [TS]

01:29:54   you'll be on for a season what happens [TS]

01:29:56   at the end well first like you're just [TS]

01:29:58   your dad ready sure under your uniform [TS]

01:30:01   and killed by shadows not not not a good [TS]

01:30:05   way to go yeah I mean yeah the budget [TS]

01:30:07   I mean this was this a show with not [TS]

01:30:09   much budget and they got a lot out of it [TS]

01:30:10   and people will look back on it now and [TS]

01:30:12   say well it looks cheap it's like yeah [TS]

01:30:14   yeah it does sort of look cheap but let [TS]

01:30:17   me tell you they they made this thing on [TS]

01:30:19   a shoestring they made this in a [TS]

01:30:20   converted this is where i'm going to do [TS]

01:30:22   my little gloating bit here which is [TS]

01:30:25   they made this in an inverted orange [TS]

01:30:27   orange drink factory in sun valley in [TS]

01:30:30   the in the san fernando valley office on [TS]

01:30:33   valley boulevard i went there when I [TS]

01:30:36   worked at mac user that's how long ago [TS]

01:30:38   was it was 1997 and uh and next door [TS]

01:30:42   there was a some other kind of some [TS]

01:30:44   other kind of a [TS]

01:30:45   food you know service thing and they [TS]

01:30:48   converted one of them into the prop shop [TS]

01:30:50   and the other one was the was the studio [TS]

01:30:52   the studio is again this old factory [TS]

01:30:54   warehouse place out in the valley and [TS]

01:30:56   yeah it was not flush at all it was they [TS]

01:30:59   were they were out where where my [TS]

01:31:01   understanding they were out where the [TS]

01:31:02   porn gets made right they were not they [TS]

01:31:05   were not in Hollywood proper they were [TS]

01:31:07   out in the valley and yet you know they [TS]

01:31:10   you walk inside and you're on Babylon 5 [TS]

01:31:12   and there's that forced perspective [TS]

01:31:13   hallway where you see the curve of the [TS]

01:31:15   station in the zocalo and you know it's [TS]

01:31:17   all wood and you know spray-painted and [TS]

01:31:20   it's just good enough to get to get by [TS]

01:31:22   on TV on the tiny TVs of of 1995 I'm and [TS]

01:31:27   was when i was in the commentary on one [TS]

01:31:29   of these episodes we agreed to watch and [TS]

01:31:31   J michael Straczynski points out that [TS]

01:31:32   essentially three different scenes were [TS]

01:31:35   redresses of the scene of the set of [TS]

01:31:38   Sheridan's opposite [TS]

01:31:40   yeah and that's just you know yeah it [TS]

01:31:42   was it was not that bigger asset they [TS]

01:31:45   were there were three or four different [TS]

01:31:46   locations i think it was set up when i [TS]

01:31:48   was there and literally around the [TS]

01:31:49   corner was Trinity's office you could [TS]

01:31:52   literally go around the corner and he [TS]

01:31:53   was in there working on that and in fact [TS]

01:31:55   I didn't get to talk to him because he [TS]

01:31:57   was directing that episode because I was [TS]

01:31:58   there when they were shooting at the [TS]

01:31:59   finale the year before they aired it and [TS]

01:32:03   I got to watch block past Bruce [TS]

01:32:05   Boxleitner dressed in his sort of [TS]

01:32:07   minbari outfit and and my mitt entire [TS]

01:32:10   memory of him was he was like come on [TS]

01:32:11   guys he was like impatient he was [TS]

01:32:13   waiting for them to shoot the scene and [TS]

01:32:15   Joe was somewhere else and all that and [TS]

01:32:16   we couldn't talk to him but it was [TS]

01:32:18   pretty cool there you know there were a [TS]

01:32:20   bunch of minbari extras out back smoking [TS]

01:32:22   cigarettes in the back parking lot [TS]

01:32:24   waiting for their call [TS]

01:32:25   I was it was it was a trip and i still [TS]

01:32:28   have I still have a couple of stickers [TS]

01:32:30   that were they would print out on you [TS]

01:32:32   know on inkjet printers the props [TS]

01:32:34   Department prick print out the stuff on [TS]

01:32:36   stickers and cut them out and stick them [TS]

01:32:39   to the walls and that was like you know [TS]

01:32:41   that was set decoration where these [TS]

01:32:43   stickers and I have a couple of of them [TS]

01:32:45   of them still which is a yeah it was [TS]

01:32:47   pretty it was pretty cool to see that I [TS]

01:32:49   am and I i do have a picture of me at 26 [TS]

01:32:53   years old with a clipboard and standing [TS]

01:32:57   in an elevator [TS]

01:32:59   at the elevator doors on Babylon 5 so [TS]

01:33:01   that was pretty cool [TS]

01:33:02   pakistan some that is some good cleaning [TS]

01:33:04   well that is so yeah so thank you and [TS]

01:33:06   thank you and i actually had a couple of [TS]

01:33:08   episodes tech tempat versions of episode [TS]

01:33:11   sent to me by one of the editors we did [TS]

01:33:13   meet the editors who were doing all that [TS]

01:33:15   after effects work and stuff like that [TS]

01:33:16   which is crazy stuff and sought saw Tony [TS]

01:33:20   Dow from Leave It to Beaver who directed [TS]

01:33:22   some of those episodes he was in the act [TS]

01:33:23   of some great one [TS]

01:33:24   he was in the Edit Bay doing doing some [TS]

01:33:26   work there still there's a continuity [TS]

01:33:27   error that i can spot every time I watch [TS]

01:33:29   a certain episode of the fourth season [TS]

01:33:30   because they were they they had a dead [TS]

01:33:34   they didn't have the shots matchup right [TS]

01:33:35   so they flipped the scene so jakar walks [TS]

01:33:38   in from the other direction and but the [TS]

01:33:40   land is wearing the shirt that is [TS]

01:33:41   asymmetrical when every time i watch it [TS]

01:33:43   I'm like that's flipped suddenly it's [TS]

01:33:45   going to her left shoulder now it's back [TS]

01:33:46   to her right shoulder and you'd never [TS]

01:33:48   notice that watching it but i noticed [TS]

01:33:49   every time now is I'm not tell me what [TS]

01:33:51   episode it is i don't know i was there [TS]

01:33:53   when they flipped it was pretty crazy so [TS]

01:33:55   that was that was a those cool [TS]

01:33:56   somebody mentioned in the chat room HD [TS]

01:34:00   version there is a rumor that they might [TS]

01:34:02   eventually do an HD version and then I [TS]

01:34:04   heard a rumor that said that was [TS]

01:34:05   impossible and I i can say something [TS]

01:34:07   about that which is a shot this on film [TS]

01:34:09   and they shot it in widescreen so they [TS]

01:34:12   could release a blu-ray version of or or [TS]

01:34:15   an hd2 downloadable version of Babylon 5 [TS]

01:34:18   what they need to do is scan in the [TS]

01:34:19   original film which they probably have [TS]

01:34:21   the problem is as with most of this [TS]

01:34:24   stuff from this period they would have [TS]

01:34:25   to remake the special effects because [TS]

01:34:27   the special effects were done for by [TS]

01:34:28   three and they were done in standard [TS]

01:34:30   death so if if if they ever wanted to [TS]

01:34:33   remake Babylon 5 and sell it in HD they [TS]

01:34:35   would either skin and all the HD film [TS]

01:34:37   and have a special effects look [TS]

01:34:38   atrocious and that isn't just the space [TS]

01:34:40   scenes but it's anything where [TS]

01:34:42   somebody's dubbed on a screen or [TS]

01:34:43   anything had enough as it is and even [TS]

01:34:45   right because on TV because they cut it [TS]

01:34:47   off they have the 16 by 9 and then they [TS]

01:34:50   cut off and blew up the effect so if [TS]

01:34:52   they had to do it they would essentially [TS]

01:34:54   have to rebuild those things like [TS]

01:34:55   they've done with Star Trek The Next [TS]

01:34:56   Generation it might happen i'm skeptical [TS]

01:34:58   that there's enough of a that that were [TS]

01:35:01   brothers is going to think there's [TS]

01:35:02   enough money there but you never know [TS]

01:35:03   what it could do it you know they did a [TS]

01:35:05   bunch of special TV movie episodes of [TS]

01:35:07   Babylon 5 and one of them was called [TS]

01:35:09   third space in which there's a like a [TS]

01:35:11   Jumpgate they [TS]

01:35:12   goes to a strange other dimension that's [TS]

01:35:15   kinda like HP Lovecraft cthulhu [TS]

01:35:18   dimension it's really bad and I mention [TS]

01:35:20   that because third space is not the [TS]

01:35:23   sponsor of this episode instead it's a [TS]

01:35:26   much better space space without [TS]

01:35:28   murderous cthulhu like monsters in it [TS]

01:35:30   it's Squarespace that's right we are [TS]

01:35:33   sponsored by Squarespace the all-in-one [TS]

01:35:35   platform that makes it fast and easy to [TS]

01:35:37   make professional websites or online [TS]

01:35:38   portfolios they are always improving [TS]

01:35:41   their platform with new features they [TS]

01:35:42   have super easy site building tools over [TS]

01:35:45   20 highly customizable templates for you [TS]

01:35:48   to choose from those work on big pc [TS]

01:35:50   monitors and they will also look great [TS]

01:35:52   with their corresponding mobile [TS]

01:35:54   templates on smartphones and tablets [TS]

01:35:56   they've won numerous design awards [TS]

01:35:58   they've won numerous customer support [TS]

01:36:00   awards they have more than 70 employees [TS]

01:36:02   on their customer care team it's based [TS]

01:36:04   in New York City they call themselves [TS]

01:36:06   the carebear layer if you can't remember [TS]

01:36:08   the care bear was a villainous alien in [TS]

01:36:12   at first season episode of Babylon 5 [TS]

01:36:14   I don't really want to get into it it [TS]

01:36:16   scarred me to this day [TS]

01:36:17   so you're saying to yourself how much [TS]

01:36:19   for award-winning design award winning [TS]

01:36:23   customer support [TS]

01:36:24   Squarespace must cost a fortune and it [TS]

01:36:27   doesn't it doesn't it really doesn't it [TS]

01:36:29   starts at eight dollars a month and if [TS]

01:36:31   you sign up for a year you get a free [TS]

01:36:32   domain name on top of it for eight [TS]

01:36:35   dollars a month and you can start a [TS]

01:36:37   trial you don't need to put in a credit [TS]

01:36:38   card it is a true free trial and you can [TS]

01:36:40   try it out you can try all these [TS]

01:36:42   features and start building your website [TS]

01:36:43   today then when you finish your free [TS]

01:36:46   trial you're convinced that Squarespace [TS]

01:36:48   is absolutely the right place for you to [TS]

01:36:50   build your website you sign up with [TS]

01:36:52   offer code smell they know that we sent [TS]

01:36:54   you and you get ten percent off your [TS]

01:36:57   order and you get show support for the [TS]

01:36:59   uncomfortable offer code smell snd ll [TS]

01:37:02   it's my last name [TS]

01:37:03   you should know that by now for pete's [TS]

01:37:05   sake who are you [TS]

01:37:06   don't you know that my name is Jason [TS]

01:37:08   Snell now you do use smel as your code [TS]

01:37:11   and you get ten percent off [TS]

01:37:13   Squarespace Squarespace is everything [TS]

01:37:14   you need to create an exceptional [TS]

01:37:16   website try it out free trial no credit [TS]

01:37:19   card necessary you're going to like it [TS]

01:37:21   and then you're going to put in code [TS]

01:37:23   smell and save money so thank you so [TS]

01:37:24   much to Squarespace [TS]

01:37:26   sponsoring not only every podcast known [TS]

01:37:28   to man but finally for sponsoring the [TS]

01:37:30   uncomfortable [TS]

01:37:31   we appreciate it there's also a lot of [TS]

01:37:34   work that has to be done to clean up the [TS]

01:37:35   film you almost need the doctor [TS]

01:37:37   restoration team on it because the city [TS]

01:37:40   beach it's very dirty the film had [TS]

01:37:42   deteriorated and deteriorated of fair [TS]

01:37:45   bit before they decided to make the dvds [TS]

01:37:49   and you can see on great you can see the [TS]

01:37:51   the the the dust on it even now but they [TS]

01:37:54   could do it so if they wanted to they [TS]

01:37:56   want to put the money in they could do [TS]

01:37:57   it in the fact is with the special [TS]

01:38:00   effects technologies cheap it is as it [TS]

01:38:01   is now it would be a lot I mean the fact [TS]

01:38:03   that there's a very small team at CBS [TS]

01:38:05   digital that's doing season by season of [TS]

01:38:07   star trek the next generation you know [TS]

01:38:09   somebody could do it they would just [TS]

01:38:11   need to put you know put in the money [TS]

01:38:13   and do the calculation to see if they [TS]

01:38:14   get their money back i think of in a [TS]

01:38:15   long-term having a it's like having [TS]

01:38:18   black-and-white when everybody's got [TS]

01:38:20   color in the end you're not going to be [TS]

01:38:21   able to sell it anywhere if you don't [TS]

01:38:22   have an HD version of it the the other [TS]

01:38:24   advantage that the star trek people have [TS]

01:38:26   is that they it was they were doing [TS]

01:38:28   model shots that were really expensive [TS]

01:38:29   to do so really all they have to do is [TS]

01:38:32   render that one stock shot I'm gonna [TS]

01:38:34   love the enterprise gliding through [TS]

01:38:35   every single effect shot of spot if they [TS]

01:38:38   have to read choreograph everything is [TS]

01:38:40   none of those files are going to be any [TS]

01:38:41   good [TS]

01:38:42   yeah in fact they lost the files they [TS]

01:38:43   that's one of the funny stories when [TS]

01:38:45   they did the deed direct-to-dvd sequel [TS]

01:38:48   they used fans models of the spaceships [TS]

01:38:51   because warner brothers lost the files [TS]

01:38:54   on the monitor the current which would [TS]

01:38:56   be no good now anyway for a PhD level [TS]

01:38:58   kind of record I think we're just going [TS]

01:39:00   to see things as as they are i don't [TS]

01:39:02   think it's going to go anywhere [TS]

01:39:03   it's ok but it-it-it but the thing that [TS]

01:39:06   bothers me about that is you don't see [TS]

01:39:08   Babylon 5 on on cable anymore because in [TS]

01:39:13   part because the source material is just [TS]

01:39:16   not up to modern age and standards are I [TS]

01:39:18   want more people to watch Babylon 5 [TS]

01:39:21   it is a period is a seminal show it is [TS]

01:39:24   it is it is so important to the to the [TS]

01:39:29   legacy of the arc driven stories that we [TS]

01:39:32   get on television today all the [TS]

01:39:34   chainmail choose your house is not all [TS]

01:39:36   those two thousand zark based sci-fi [TS]

01:39:39   shows [TS]

01:39:39   this is where it all started this is [TS]

01:39:41   yeah Buffy Buffy was just starting when [TS]

01:39:43   Babylon 5 was in its fourth season [TS]

01:39:45   I mean and you start it all into the [TS]

01:39:47   2000s when you started to see this stuff [TS]

01:39:50   that really an even star trek was [TS]

01:39:51   influenced the latter years of deep [TS]

01:39:53   space nine with those those Dominion War [TS]

01:39:55   arcs I mean that would not have happened [TS]

01:39:57   without Babylon 5 i'm sorry it would not [TS]

01:39:59   have happened [TS]

01:40:00   absolutely boise on by the way are our [TS]

01:40:04   friend of the friend of the podcast mine [TS]

01:40:05   says that that what he's heard through [TS]

01:40:08   his very good Hollywood connections is [TS]

01:40:10   that Warner Brothers does have the right [TS]

01:40:12   film elements to remaster it and the [TS]

01:40:14   gross transfers that we see on DVD or [TS]

01:40:15   not representative of the film that they [TS]

01:40:17   could actually do a pretty good job you [TS]

01:40:20   know but they would have to put the [TS]

01:40:21   money in and that's always the question [TS]

01:40:23   so if Warner Brothers wants to do it and [TS]

01:40:26   you know they're remastering Batman [TS]

01:40:28   right now the baby out of west batman [TS]

01:40:30   first but but maybe they'll get to it [TS]

01:40:32   because we just need to get more people [TS]

01:40:33   watching babylon 5 and excited about [TS]

01:40:35   what shapes our podcast has a goal yes [TS]

01:40:38   exactly yeah it does and and honestly if [TS]

01:40:40   your if your TV you know your TV studio [TS]

01:40:44   your movie studio you've got this stuff [TS]

01:40:45   that's that can be HD and it's not yet [TS]

01:40:48   at some point it makes sense to to [TS]

01:40:50   convert that stuff because it won't be [TS]

01:40:53   sellable in any way in standard death [TS]

01:40:56   but you've gotta film master right there [TS]

01:40:57   so put in the money and figure that over [TS]

01:40:59   20 years you're going to get your money [TS]

01:41:00   back with a profit and hopefully they'll [TS]

01:41:02   do that with this so so I've got one [TS]

01:41:05   more point but but that I wanted to drop [TS]

01:41:07   before we talk about your podcast [TS]

01:41:09   briefly because I do want to promote [TS]

01:41:10   your podcast and it's something is one [TS]

01:41:13   of these things is joseph kosinski has [TS]

01:41:15   proven to be to have some very [TS]

01:41:17   interesting timing about some of his his [TS]

01:41:20   his uh his work and how art imitates [TS]

01:41:24   life and life imitates art I think most [TS]

01:41:27   interesting is that he and chris carter [TS]

01:41:28   of the x-files were working on a series [TS]

01:41:31   that didn't come to be because it handle [TS]

01:41:34   it was called I think the world on fire [TS]

01:41:35   and it was basically about a a terrorist [TS]

01:41:39   style incident that caused a dramatic [TS]

01:41:42   changes in how countries on on earth [TS]

01:41:46   reacted to things and then 911 happened [TS]

01:41:48   and they couldn't do that show anymore [TS]

01:41:50   because it was basically it [TS]

01:41:53   happened and i wanted to mention 911 [TS]

01:41:55   because i think actually a lot of what [TS]

01:41:58   Straczynski saying about human nature [TS]

01:42:00   and the nature of people and governments [TS]

01:42:03   and how we react to to threats and how [TS]

01:42:06   we the the greatest risk to society's is [TS]

01:42:09   when they put under some pressure and [TS]

01:42:11   you have to see those decisions that [TS]

01:42:12   they make and some of the stuff that's [TS]

01:42:14   in Babylon 5 is way more weighty [TS]

01:42:17   post-911 than it was pretty 911 and the [TS]

01:42:21   two examples i wanted to give were one [TS]

01:42:22   we talked about which is the torture of [TS]

01:42:24   sheridan which has a lot more residents [TS]

01:42:27   now since we know what waterboarding is [TS]

01:42:29   and things like that but the one that [TS]

01:42:32   really gets me is when to lend tells the [TS]

01:42:34   story of how the earth-minbari war [TS]

01:42:35   started which we've been seeing in the [TS]

01:42:37   beginning which is their leader gets [TS]

01:42:39   killed and she says we all went mad and [TS]

01:42:43   we and that's why we started the war and [TS]

01:42:45   it was against all of our principles but [TS]

01:42:48   we were we were so incensed by the [TS]

01:42:50   single act that it drove us crazy and we [TS]

01:42:52   did lots of things that I regret now and [TS]

01:42:54   I gotta say I think about i think about [TS]

01:42:56   that when I think about what happened [TS]

01:42:58   after 911 and some of the extreme [TS]

01:43:00   reactions and some of the wars that got [TS]

01:43:02   started that think another another [TS]

01:43:04   notable is its I cork sort of coming out [TS]

01:43:07   of the dilgar war you know we've we've [TS]

01:43:09   got not necessarily that i'm not saying [TS]

01:43:12   that the Department of Homeland Security [TS]

01:43:13   is it's better if I go but I'm just [TS]

01:43:16   saying you know it'sit's another anti [TS]

01:43:17   just en este video there's there's a lot [TS]

01:43:19   of that you're not with us you're [TS]

01:43:21   against us that's out there even wardens [TS]

01:43:24   interrogation you know where he says [TS]

01:43:26   you're dead as far as everyone knows no [TS]

01:43:28   one knows where you are [TS]

01:43:30   no one's ever gonna see you again maybe [TS]

01:43:32   you want to tell me something you know [TS]

01:43:35   so he definitely export a lot of those [TS]

01:43:38   things he explored patriotism quite a [TS]

01:43:40   bit [TS]

01:43:41   oh yeah the show as one of the themes [TS]

01:43:43   Sheridan is Patriot you know [TS]

01:43:45   particularly in no surrender no retreat [TS]

01:43:49   no he's he's touring III don't want to [TS]

01:43:53   fire on these guys in my buddies [TS]

01:43:55   yeah but i'm going to you stand down or [TS]

01:43:57   be destroyed then sometimes the [TS]

01:43:59   government will give you illegal orders [TS]

01:44:01   and a good soldier has to know that you [TS]

01:44:03   can follow illegal orders right i mean [TS]

01:44:05   and it's not like this is rocket science [TS]

01:44:06   he's looking back at the history of [TS]

01:44:08   humanity and and even of the 20th [TS]

01:44:11   century and saying this stuff happened [TS]

01:44:12   before and it can happen again [TS]

01:44:14   I'm not to get all battlestar galactica [TS]

01:44:16   on you but his write his report yet but [TS]

01:44:18   his but his look when the ship blows up [TS]

01:44:21   in the White Star go to your apartment [TS]

01:44:23   crashes into its gonna get some like [TS]

01:44:25   books get some lifeboats oh yeah and [TS]

01:44:27   these guys are trying to kill 10 seconds [TS]

01:44:29   earlier he gets the lifeboats and when [TS]

01:44:31   the thing blows up that look on his face [TS]

01:44:32   like why did you make me do that [TS]

01:44:35   yeah I didn't want to do that but i had [TS]

01:44:37   to do that because that's what [TS]

01:44:39   patriotism calls for and Garibaldi [TS]

01:44:41   you're taking exact thing I can't handle [TS]

01:44:44   being around you because you're just [TS]

01:44:46   taking things into your own hands and we [TS]

01:44:48   have procedures to do this and you know [TS]

01:44:52   we see with the Len on the hand in hers [TS]

01:44:55   Londo you know all the all the way [TS]

01:44:58   through the series he his defenses that [TS]

01:45:00   I am a patriot I was doing what has to [TS]

01:45:02   be done and when even when he has to [TS]

01:45:04   turn ee to have to turn against his own [TS]

01:45:07   government when he realizes that oh my [TS]

01:45:08   god might have the Emperor is insane [TS]

01:45:10   we have to get rid of them he's trying [TS]

01:45:13   to do now is to create a new coalition [TS]

01:45:14   and he says Devere that i needed i need [TS]

01:45:16   the Patriot i'll need a friend you are [TS]

01:45:19   both and that's that that's the seeds of [TS]

01:45:21   finally getting with Emperor everyone [TS]

01:45:24   believes that every police are doing [TS]

01:45:25   what they're doing for the greater good [TS]

01:45:26   of their community of community of which [TS]

01:45:28   they have incredible amount of pride [TS]

01:45:30   they would lay down their own lives for [TS]

01:45:31   and sometimes that turns into zealot [TS]

01:45:34   Reeve air easily everyone thinks their [TS]

01:45:37   morality is a hundred percent correct [TS]

01:45:38   and that whole flip from the beginning [TS]

01:45:40   where you know the Centauri are sort of [TS]

01:45:43   these downtrodden you know Bulls [TS]

01:45:47   buffoons and then by the time we get to [TS]

01:45:49   you know you know in the second episode [TS]

01:45:52   we talked about everything is turned [TS]

01:45:54   you know all of a sudden are on the run [TS]

01:45:57   will have admittedly what happened to [TS]

01:45:58   these people and then the Rangers [TS]

01:46:01   loyalty their holy do we live for the [TS]

01:46:03   one we die for the one again you know [TS]

01:46:07   patriotism [TS]

01:46:08   we're here to serve we're not here to [TS]

01:46:10   ask questions [TS]

01:46:11   whatever the crazy mission is that's [TS]

01:46:13   what we're here to do how about that [TS]

01:46:15   carry the character arts for characters [TS]

01:46:16   like maroon who is a patriot and comes [TS]

01:46:21   around to who he's too who he's going to [TS]

01:46:24   serve in the end you know who do you [TS]

01:46:26   serve as a big question here and and [TS]

01:46:30   again there's there's so much in this [TS]

01:46:33   show about a personal about personal [TS]

01:46:36   responsibility that's one of the reasons [TS]

01:46:38   i love it so much [TS]

01:46:40   even President Clark you know is i think [TS]

01:46:42   it's an evil character is he is you know [TS]

01:46:45   who took over also an all in all evil [TS]

01:46:49   right he's drinking out of a fat white [TS]

01:46:51   bold guy he was just just carrying on [TS]

01:46:54   the legacy right in basically going back [TS]

01:46:58   to midnight on the firing line here with [TS]

01:47:00   the whole presidential election is going [TS]

01:47:01   on in the background and it's all about [TS]

01:47:03   President Santiago you know pledging [TS]

01:47:06   that earth isn't going to be easy Oh [TS]

01:47:08   patrolling the police wars when we're [TS]

01:47:12   gonna get back and it's sort of like you [TS]

01:47:14   know background father and I think [TS]

01:47:15   talked to said you know these guys [TS]

01:47:16   aren't doing enough where we're staying [TS]

01:47:18   out of this we don't want to get [TS]

01:47:19   involved and that's what's best for [TS]

01:47:21   earth right now we've already before [TS]

01:47:23   enough for and then in the last episode [TS]

01:47:25   of the first season that there is a you [TS]

01:47:26   know Kennedy assassination level thing [TS]

01:47:29   right down to the earth force one shot [TS]

01:47:31   that is a like everybody is posed like [TS]

01:47:33   the the Johnson swearing impose on fs1 [TS]

01:47:38   after the Kennedy assassination wow [TS]

01:47:40   amazing everything everything there was [TS]

01:47:42   always thought that episode again try to [TS]

01:47:45   be a little overly dramatic it's like [TS]

01:47:48   yet [TS]

01:47:49   Oh only we could reach them in time and [TS]

01:47:51   warn them and oh I figured out who the [TS]

01:47:53   traitor is before he shoots me in the [TS]

01:47:55   back and oh if only I hadn't gone in the [TS]

01:47:58   cocoon that's it but still but still [TS]

01:48:00   that is a really good at that it was [TS]

01:48:02   like oh it's all coming [TS]

01:48:03   I can't believe it's a cliffhanger and [TS]

01:48:05   then it wasn't on again for like a [TS]

01:48:06   billion years after it was literally a [TS]

01:48:09   billion they kept showing the rear and [TS]

01:48:11   the same five episodes for like a year [TS]

01:48:14   and there we go finally there's new [TS]

01:48:16   episodes i could probably recite the [TS]

01:48:18   episode hunter maria by memory [TS]

01:48:21   hit that no one else on left is how the [TS]

01:48:24   narrative of the show changed every [TS]

01:48:26   season you know our last best hope for [TS]

01:48:29   peace [TS]

01:48:30   our last best hope for victory yes I was [TS]

01:48:33   gonna mention that picture and [TS]

01:48:34   everything in between the change the [TS]

01:48:35   opening credits every year every year [TS]

01:48:37   and kind of moving with a ball around [TS]

01:48:39   yes season of hope season the fitness [TS]

01:48:42   season when we took back what is off but [TS]

01:48:44   i actually the one that kills me as the [TS]

01:48:46   after two years of the Babylon project [TS]

01:48:48   was our last best hope for peace in [TS]

01:48:50   season three we got it failed didn't [TS]

01:48:53   have one star favorite shoes on another [TS]

01:48:55   and it's like what what just what is [TS]

01:48:57   that and of course that hadn't that's [TS]

01:48:59   also prefiguring the civil war that [TS]

01:49:01   hadn't happened yet and just there's [TS]

01:49:03   some really really nice nice things [TS]

01:49:05   they're just waiting for that shoe to [TS]

01:49:06   drop it wasn't feeling in the back [TS]

01:49:08   speakers for watching a Babylon 5 was [TS]

01:49:10   that even mean [TS]

01:49:11   yes the code name or something now it [TS]

01:49:13   turns out there are other four and you [TS]

01:49:15   can ask for long [TS]

01:49:16   I also move that that was burned down [TS]

01:49:18   fell over then second of the SWAT but [TS]

01:49:20   the fifth station state old and I also [TS]

01:49:22   know that the narration is always in the [TS]

01:49:24   past tense of that is telling us the [TS]

01:49:26   story this is you know the story of the [TS]

01:49:28   mass of the Babylon stations itself from [TS]

01:49:31   the future always right you know what [TS]

01:49:33   always right you know let me tell you i [TS]

01:49:35   got a great story to tell you kids also [TS]

01:49:39   it is isn't it great the way that he [TS]

01:49:41   could always play against our [TS]

01:49:42   expectations where we've seen the video [TS]

01:49:44   but it's been like a recurring thing all [TS]

01:49:46   here is what the Babylon 5 station looks [TS]

01:49:48   like when it's being exploded in the [TS]

01:49:49   middle of space and we know that that's [TS]

01:49:52   going to be the build-up that's how [TS]

01:49:53   Babylon 5 ends and we're thinking all [TS]

01:49:55   there's a great war they have to like [TS]

01:49:56   initiate the self-destruct sequence is [TS]

01:49:58   like know it lives up to its purpose [TS]

01:50:01   purpose and some of the future [TS]

01:50:02   it was detonated purposefully as a [TS]

01:50:04   hazard to navigation by joseph kosinski [TS]

01:50:05   demolition like the dude like the dunes [TS]

01:50:08   result in Las Vegas they just didn't [TS]

01:50:10   want to do even when he showed his hand [TS]

01:50:13   but what was gonna happen it didn't ruin [TS]

01:50:15   the story because you didn't know how it [TS]

01:50:17   got there and you didn't know what [TS]

01:50:19   events we're going to lead them there [TS]

01:50:20   and what those events really meant [TS]

01:50:22   someone hand you sort of like yeah he's [TS]

01:50:24   done spoilers in the middle and it takes [TS]

01:50:26   a really good right [TS]

01:50:28   to pull that off to spoil something [TS]

01:50:30   right in the middle of the arc and give [TS]

01:50:33   everything away and still have you [TS]

01:50:35   feeling okay okay i know what happens [TS]

01:50:38   but how did that happen like when they [TS]

01:50:40   can spoil a delenn's transformation in [TS]

01:50:42   the opening credits of of season two you [TS]

01:50:44   see your picture with hair and you're [TS]

01:50:46   like what [TS]

01:50:47   um okay I guess I know what she's gonna [TS]

01:50:48   look like when she comes out of the [TS]

01:50:50   Christmas they actually didn't do that [TS]

01:50:51   on the original airing oh did they see [TS]

01:50:53   this is the kind of thing I wouldn't [TS]

01:50:55   have known and engineering the captain [TS]

01:50:57   but I was too busy going what the hell [TS]

01:50:59   is the guy from Sacramento scarecrow [TS]

01:51:01   galaxy right now I'm not mad at them for [TS]

01:51:04   put on the DVD yeah they like took a [TS]

01:51:06   single one out [TS]

01:51:07   retired they were they there they were [TS]

01:51:09   sort of they actually played up that you [TS]

01:51:11   know her coming out of the cocoon pretty [TS]

01:51:12   well [TS]

01:51:13   oh I always thought that she just got [TS]

01:51:16   hard being in the makeup and she went to [TS]

01:51:17   look you want me on the show I gotta [TS]

01:51:18   look like a normal person personally is [TS]

01:51:20   that the reason that she looks so [TS]

01:51:22   different in the in the in the pilot [TS]

01:51:24   movie is that what they were going to do [TS]

01:51:25   is process her voice the entire first [TS]

01:51:26   season and say that Dylan was male and [TS]

01:51:28   Wendell n comes out of the cocoon season [TS]

01:51:30   two [TS]

01:51:31   it was in Berlin was going to have [TS]

01:51:33   transformed not only into part human but [TS]

01:51:35   into female and that was going to be [TS]

01:51:36   like wow you blew my mind and then they [TS]

01:51:38   did the test with mira furlan voice and [TS]

01:51:41   it sounded really bad and fake and [TS]

01:51:42   they're like a forget it but that's why [TS]

01:51:44   her makeup looks much more androgynous [TS]

01:51:46   in the in the in the pilot movie and [TS]

01:51:49   whereas in the first season they just [TS]

01:51:50   had to be she's female but she's you [TS]

01:51:52   know she's not all kind of big chin and [TS]

01:51:55   stuff like they had they had done in the [TS]

01:51:57   yeah it's great crazy that would have [TS]

01:51:59   been a real mind-blower but they just [TS]

01:52:00   couldn't get the voice to work right and [TS]

01:52:02   they decided they didn't want her to you [TS]

01:52:04   know be unintelligibly modified voice [TS]

01:52:07   that for a whole year and now you know [TS]

01:52:09   why she just hosted Garibaldi up like a [TS]

01:52:11   sack of potatoes over her shoulders in [TS]

01:52:13   that pilot movie [TS]

01:52:14   yeah we were supposed to yeah that was [TS]

01:52:16   supposed to be a male character who [TS]

01:52:18   turns female in the cocoon but you know [TS]

01:52:20   instead she just grew hair and had lots [TS]

01:52:23   of a bone you know but still you know [TS]

01:52:25   and changes i really i I really wonder [TS]

01:52:27   how I would have reacted to that if that [TS]

01:52:30   if that had that they'd actually pull [TS]

01:52:32   that off [TS]

01:52:33   I don't know if that would have been a [TS]

01:52:34   little bit too much for me i don't [TS]

01:52:37   clearly J michael Straczynski would have [TS]

01:52:40   certainly the [TS]

01:52:42   he was certainly have done it now let's [TS]

01:52:44   let's let's take a moment to accept that [TS]

01:52:47   that the this man has transitioned into [TS]

01:52:50   female let's take that seriously not [TS]

01:52:52   pretend we won't we won't deal with this [TS]

01:52:54   the same way that star trekt out with [TS]

01:52:55   the fact that hey where we all like [TS]

01:52:57   weasels and frogs and ferrets like for [TS]

01:53:00   entire episode that one time up [TS]

01:53:01   who cares so it's it's it's interesting [TS]

01:53:04   it's interesting to think of how many [TS]

01:53:06   episodes that would have taken for me to [TS]

01:53:08   24 effort for me to integrate that would [TS]

01:53:13   have been it's such an interesting twist [TS]

01:53:15   yeah I think he probably realized you [TS]

01:53:17   know what I I got too much going on I [TS]

01:53:20   don't you have that I think that's what [TS]

01:53:21   I don't think I mean any been and he was [TS]

01:53:23   smart enough to know that it was time to [TS]

01:53:25   go back that down that as that [TS]

01:53:28   transitioning from from from minbari to [TS]

01:53:33   human would not have been a big enough [TS]

01:53:35   think it also has to be trans for [TS]

01:53:37   transmitting from male member re to [TS]

01:53:40   female human it's it seems like to too [TS]

01:53:43   much gloss too much to which for all I [TS]

01:53:45   suspect that listening to the voice [TS]

01:53:47   treatments made him rethink whether he [TS]

01:53:49   wanted to go that far and that it wasn't [TS]

01:53:51   just that but that's what that story and [TS]

01:53:53   that's why the makeup was built that way [TS]

01:53:54   anyway I we are we are running a very [TS]

01:53:59   long although you know we gotta run [TS]

01:54:00   another five-year show guys we gotta you [TS]

01:54:03   know we got its double sized and and of [TS]

01:54:06   you know you get you're getting your [TS]

01:54:08   money's worth this week i want to [TS]

01:54:10   mention before we go and maybe we can go [TS]

01:54:12   around if everybody has an episode they [TS]

01:54:14   want to mention is a particular [TS]

01:54:15   favourite we could do that before we go [TS]

01:54:16   really quickly I as an episode we [TS]

01:54:18   haven't mentioned that is perhaps my [TS]

01:54:20   favorite if not it's one of my favorite [TS]

01:54:22   Babylon 5 episodes and it's not a narc [TS]

01:54:23   driven episode at all [TS]

01:54:25   it's called confessions and lamentations [TS]

01:54:27   and it's about a fatal disease that [TS]

01:54:30   strikes a population of aliens and [TS]

01:54:31   there's a panic on the ship and it's [TS]

01:54:33   just a beautifully sad dark story about [TS]

01:54:36   this horrible the spread of this [TS]

01:54:39   horrible disease there are some aids [TS]

01:54:41   parallels in there that are uh are very [TS]

01:54:45   hard to watch and touching and and [TS]

01:54:49   beautiful and delenn goes inside where [TS]

01:54:52   the where the mark a bar [TS]

01:54:55   are dying and takes care of them they [TS]

01:54:57   failed they're looking to lock them away [TS]

01:54:59   and she goes with with them and it's [TS]

01:55:01   beautiful and that's that's maybe my [TS]

01:55:03   favorite episode [TS]

01:55:04   even though it has nothing to do with an [TS]

01:55:05   arc I think it's a wonderful wonderful [TS]

01:55:06   episode and it doesn't again we blew the [TS]

01:55:09   spoil of war and they all died [TS]

01:55:11   no they don't save the day they all died [TS]

01:55:14   it's terrible and also get this was a [TS]

01:55:16   major alien we even have been seen in [TS]

01:55:19   every episode but our then it wasn't [TS]

01:55:21   like they made up this race they had a [TS]

01:55:22   set fire to like a hundred masks yeah [TS]

01:55:25   and wardrobes because you doing [TS]

01:55:27   yeah maybe a few of them survived [TS]

01:55:29   anybody else want to mention a favorite [TS]

01:55:31   episode before we before we wrap it up [TS]

01:55:32   height i will i'm gonna go for one [TS]

01:55:35   that's I mean it [TS]

01:55:36   maybe it's an easy pick but the [TS]

01:55:38   deconstruction of falling stars is [TS]

01:55:40   justic kind of an amazing episode of [TS]

01:55:42   television i found that it was the sort [TS]

01:55:45   of most magnificent and satisfying [TS]

01:55:47   wrap-up I've ever seen of a story I [TS]

01:55:50   think on television maybe the only thing [TS]

01:55:52   that comes close would be like the last [TS]

01:55:53   15 minutes of the last episode of six [TS]

01:55:55   feet under which honestly isn't one of [TS]

01:55:57   my favorite shows but i really enjoyed [TS]

01:55:58   the way that they closed up that show [TS]

01:56:00   and this was it gave an epilogue but it [TS]

01:56:04   still had me sort of coming out smiling [TS]

01:56:06   and maybe walking just endless story [TS]

01:56:08   there is that they shot the final [TS]

01:56:10   episode of season for thinking will be [TS]

01:56:11   the last episode of the show when they [TS]

01:56:13   got picked up [TS]

01:56:14   they moved that to the last episode of [TS]

01:56:15   season five and they had to shoot a new [TS]

01:56:17   season finale for season 4 as part of [TS]

01:56:20   the block of season five so it's this [TS]

01:56:22   you know season four areas so late that [TS]

01:56:25   they were able to shoot a season 5 [TS]

01:56:26   episode and inserted at the end of [TS]

01:56:28   season four [TS]

01:56:29   but how do you do that if you don't want [TS]

01:56:31   to continue the story arc and so he [TS]

01:56:33   created this episode that flashes like [TS]

01:56:34   way forward forward and then farther [TS]

01:56:37   forward and then farther forward and if [TS]

01:56:39   you would have explained that to me and [TS]

01:56:41   said this next episode is going to be [TS]

01:56:43   jumping this far in the future and [TS]

01:56:44   telling what happens and then and then [TS]

01:56:46   the next and the next [TS]

01:56:47   I would have said that is going to suck [TS]

01:56:49   i do not want to watch it was very [TS]

01:56:50   satisfying episode yet managed and off [TS]

01:56:53   because it shows the humans becoming for [TS]

01:56:55   loans and doing right what we said is [TS]

01:56:56   the most important thing is leaving [TS]

01:56:59   yes at the end like we're going to leave [TS]

01:57:01   we're going to be smart enough we [TS]

01:57:03   learned that when it's our time to go [TS]

01:57:05   we're going to turn off the lights blow [TS]

01:57:07   up the Sun and leave [TS]

01:57:09   anything he so definitely use the [TS]

01:57:11   characters that we have come to know and [TS]

01:57:13   love in these futuristic ways that I i [TS]

01:57:18   didn't get mad like I think I might have [TS]

01:57:20   if the if the writer had had a less deft [TS]

01:57:23   touch that using these characters in [TS]

01:57:25   slightly different ways [TS]

01:57:27   alright other pics i love you i was just [TS]

01:57:32   gonna say first of all just for [TS]

01:57:34   continuity purposes and we handle [TS]

01:57:36   time-travel arm you know Babylon squared [TS]

01:57:38   followed by war without end and seeing [TS]

01:57:41   it from the other side that's really [TS]

01:57:43   hard to do it's hard to do time-travel [TS]

01:57:45   no one really gets it right even he [TS]

01:57:47   doesn't quite get it but I think he [TS]

01:57:49   pulled it off better than anyone could [TS]

01:57:52   and it also answered i looked at the [TS]

01:57:53   shows that answer questions because [TS]

01:57:54   Babylon squared ask so many questions [TS]

01:57:56   arm and then there's just a couple [TS]

01:57:58   scenes then I loved the last scene of [TS]

01:58:01   the rock right now I place where [TS]

01:58:04   juxtaposing the gospel choir and he [TS]

01:58:06   wrote that song apparently that's not [TS]

01:58:07   home J michael Straczynski wrote it and [TS]

01:58:12   this said that juxtaposing between you [TS]

01:58:14   know him running and and did them [TS]

01:58:17   singing was awesome and I mean besides [TS]

01:58:20   sort of a little bit weird to have that [TS]

01:58:22   one moment with the whole world's [TS]

01:58:25   falling around him right Dez is [TS]

01:58:27   basically dead and use this voice jump [TS]

01:58:30   he's got like three seconds [TS]

01:58:31   you know to make a decision and it goes [TS]

01:58:33   right you know what if i jump it's gonna [TS]

01:58:36   buy me another 10 seconds and then i'll [TS]

01:58:37   figure out what to do after that 10 [TS]

01:58:39   seconds and then i'll figure out what to [TS]

01:58:40   do after that 10 seconds on and the look [TS]

01:58:42   on his face when he does it I thought it [TS]

01:58:45   was like yeah we don't know what's [TS]

01:58:46   happened to him but I kind of like that [TS]

01:58:49   attitude that says he's a man of action [TS]

01:58:51   i'm not going to stand still I still [TS]

01:58:53   have you know ten seconds I'm gonna make [TS]

01:58:55   the most of 10 seconds [TS]

01:58:56   what happens also that that is an old [TS]

01:58:58   spiritual that's a that's not a novice [TS]

01:59:00   all is the original little spiritual [TS]

01:59:01   what a great juxtaposition and I can I [TS]

01:59:03   can sing that song and I can see was a [TS]

01:59:05   reefer getting beaten to death [TS]

01:59:07   yeah yeah yeah it was it was it was an [TS]

01:59:10   echo to one of Jenna's presents his [TS]

01:59:12   favorite movies [TS]

01:59:14   cabaret we're just echoes the joyous [TS]

01:59:16   swinging and if people singing and [TS]

01:59:18   meanwhile sewn being beaten to death [TS]

01:59:20   back and front seat of my car just just [TS]

01:59:23   like matter-of-factly telling the rest [TS]

01:59:24   of the nard like while rivas there that [TS]

01:59:27   make sure this crystal is in his pocket [TS]

01:59:28   also don't tear him apart above the neck [TS]

01:59:31   because you need to be identified [TS]

01:59:33   that's what yeah but if you want to try [TS]

01:59:35   to run go ahead and reva totally [TS]

01:59:38   deserves what he is coming to him and [TS]

01:59:41   you you feel good about it and then you [TS]

01:59:44   feel bad about feeling good about it [TS]

01:59:46   yes all right I'd like to I'd like to [TS]

01:59:50   pull out an unusual one [TS]

01:59:52   I've been watching this with my son [TS]

01:59:55   who's just turned twelve I but I was [TS]

01:59:58   like the Sun this is everything [TS]

01:59:58   like the Sun this is everything [TS]

02:00:00   thing you need to know about modern [TS]

02:00:01   science fiction literature here is [TS]

02:00:03   Babylon 5 watch it with me and he has [TS]

02:00:05   he's enjoyed it quite a bit of the [TS]

02:00:08   maddest he got was in watching the [TS]

02:00:12   illusion of truth which is the second [TS]

02:00:15   sort of media story where the where the [TS]

02:00:19   state-run media comes to do a story [TS]

02:00:24   about Babylon 5 and and manipulates the [TS]

02:00:29   story manipulates the truth and will my [TS]

02:00:33   son was watching it and getting madder [TS]

02:00:35   and madder that didn't happen [TS]

02:00:37   wait wait that's that he said that but [TS]

02:00:40   that's not what he meant wait wait that [TS]

02:00:42   he wasn't even there when they said get [TS]

02:00:44   it was the best media education i could [TS]

02:00:48   have given my son ever and I'm do i I [TS]

02:00:51   just I just love that episode it's [TS]

02:00:54   subversive maybe not just some of us [TS]

02:00:55   your little older who beat her used to [TS]

02:00:58   that used to being cynical about the [TS]

02:01:00   media and all that stuff but it's just [TS]

02:01:02   one of those clever inventor of stories [TS]

02:01:04   that really struck a chord with my son [TS]

02:01:06   made him just a little more savvy about [TS]

02:01:09   the way the world works so i love that [TS]

02:01:11   episode I i have to say day of the dead [TS]

02:01:14   because not only was a great episode [TS]

02:01:17   that written by neil game and also [TS]

02:01:20   featuring Penn & Teller incorporating a [TS]

02:01:23   brilliant and wonderful way to [TS]

02:01:25   accommodate the idea that teller may not [TS]

02:01:28   want to speak on camera in keeping with [TS]

02:01:30   the stage performer persona so it's not [TS]

02:01:33   only is it genuinely great episode of [TS]

02:01:34   itself but also it's it's sometimes [TS]

02:01:38   there are these movies and TV shows [TS]

02:01:39   where the way that you relate to it [TS]

02:01:41   changes as your as as your as you get a [TS]

02:01:47   little bit older because when it first [TS]

02:01:49   aired I was in my late twenties and the [TS]

02:01:52   and it's an episode in which for 24 [TS]

02:01:55   hours [TS]

02:01:56   it's the day of the dead and people on [TS]

02:01:58   Babylon 5 key characters people who are [TS]

02:02:01   people they people significant in their [TS]

02:02:03   lives who had died basically come back [TS]

02:02:06   and visit them of the during the during [TS]

02:02:08   this day and in my late twenties that [TS]

02:02:12   was before [TS]

02:02:13   friends of mine and family and friends [TS]

02:02:15   of mine and family members of mine had [TS]

02:02:17   started dying on me and so that had an [TS]

02:02:19   extra resonance as I'm looking at this [TS]

02:02:22   very very thin came in most cases very [TS]

02:02:24   painful situations where you're dead and [TS]

02:02:28   i know you're dead you cannot possibly [TS]

02:02:30   be here but i'm glad that i get an extra [TS]

02:02:32   day to talk to you even though I don't [TS]

02:02:35   know if this is real or not and then the [TS]

02:02:37   pain that they feel when this Specter [TS]

02:02:39   that may or may not have been a figment [TS]

02:02:41   of your imagination goes away and just [TS]

02:02:43   reminds them of you know it's [TS]

02:02:45   interesting when you get to revisit that [TS]

02:02:47   from a different perspective it's a [TS]

02:02:49   great but it is integrate standalone [TS]

02:02:50   episode of itself [TS]

02:02:51   yeah despite being a season 5 episode [TS]

02:02:54   video game and just parachuted in rodin [TS]

02:02:56   episode broke the streak of all the [TS]

02:02:57   Stravinsky episodes and I was going to [TS]

02:03:00   mention uh the other dark episode that i [TS]

02:03:02   like the survivors by david ayer general [TS]

02:03:04   which is up first season episode i think [TS]

02:03:06   and that's also horrible things [TS]

02:03:08   involving people killing children [TS]

02:03:11   yeah that was the one episode i skipped [TS]

02:03:14   battery mom which wait which one but [TS]

02:03:17   that's the one where the the it's a it's [TS]

02:03:19   kind of a Christian Scientist kind of [TS]

02:03:20   thing it's the alien to believe great [TS]

02:03:22   honors up or is what believers yes the [TS]

02:03:26   first believers yeah believers by David [TS]

02:03:28   job because uh yeah they open them up [TS]

02:03:30   and then that the parents believe that [TS]

02:03:31   he has no soul but he would have died if [TS]

02:03:33   they hadn't operated on him so they save [TS]

02:03:35   him but the parents believe he has no [TS]

02:03:36   soul [TS]

02:03:36   so they killed him yes that is on my [TS]

02:03:39   list two minutes it's on my list because [TS]

02:03:42   it's just so powerful yeah yeah [TS]

02:03:44   dark soap and it's another instant other [TS]

02:03:46   is another example of this is this this [TS]

02:03:49   is why that when they do that when they [TS]

02:03:50   did that on Star Trek it was not [TS]

02:03:52   satisfying because on Star Trek events [TS]

02:03:53   with well thank you for telling thank [TS]

02:03:55   you for proving to us for making us [TS]

02:03:57   finally realizing that are 10,000 years [TS]

02:03:59   of religious tradition have in Buncombe [TS]

02:04:01   all along we have really feel as though [TS]

02:04:02   we've grown from this experience Thank [TS]

02:04:04   You Starfleet right and thank you for [TS]

02:04:06   bringing our son back to life and and we [TS]

02:04:08   were wrong [TS]

02:04:09   um yeah and then we all live happily [TS]

02:04:11   ever after and how they can apply with [TS]

02:04:13   our son is a zombie he is a he is an [TS]

02:04:17   abomination abomination of life it it [TS]

02:04:20   now you're making it doubly painful [TS]

02:04:21   because not only do we know his soul has [TS]