0:00:00founded my dad
0:00:06[Music]
0:00:12hello Daejeon hi Merlin is going good my
0:00:18feet are cold
0:00:19oh yeah I i am i am wearing a sweater
0:00:24but i forgot to put slippers on slipper
0:00:28Chris yeah I have slippers
0:00:29ok I gotta slippers you got I don't live
0:00:32in California I i have slippers don't
0:00:34talk that way to me in my house you know
0:00:36drafting my house is my house has my
0:00:39house has the original furnace from 1922
0:00:41and which means there is a chimney blast
0:00:45coming straight up the middle through
0:00:46one of its other words chim-chim blast
0:00:50the battle part of heat of theirs i have
0:00:57i have a couple of pairs and nothing
0:00:58comes out of the other ones nothing
0:01:00yeah well you live in California right
0:01:03it's like our socks like a gentleman
0:01:05like 800 degrees every day
0:01:07oh you can be California was sunny all
0:01:09the time we go swimming and I know my
0:01:12dad used to say that we have cold this
0:01:15winter I ever spent was a summer example
0:01:17this car is over
0:01:19uh-huh i have three pairs of slippers
0:01:23wow why would that surprise me i have an
0:01:27old pair of like elk skin slippers from
0:01:32from the old days from Alaska then I
0:01:36have a more modern pair of slippers
0:01:38slippers cy5 put some more modern you
0:01:42have a new the the sort of a wishbone
0:01:44suspension and then so i guess you
0:01:46better torsion control
0:01:48that's right exactly exactly better
0:01:49cornering and then I have a pair of
0:01:51slippers that were given to me as a
0:01:53christmas present it's a classic
0:01:55christmas present gift for a man it's a
0:01:57fallback in ya get a slipper and I have
0:01:59a pair of slippers that are the bug
0:02:01brand roof
0:02:04but they don't look like the boots
0:02:06they're just normal slippers but doesn't
0:02:08make you look like a twenty-year-old go
0:02:10and get that yeah you don't look like a
0:02:1220 year old girl that doesn't know how
0:02:14to address you look like a normal guy
0:02:16but in slippers that are from Australia
0:02:18is the tired all the time so I put them
0:02:21on when I'm walking around my my my old
0:02:23house in the winter but i forgot today
0:02:24so right now i have a I I just wrapped a
0:02:27jacket around haha ah pretty soon that
0:02:33voice that Dad voice is not going to be
0:02:35affected
0:02:36no it's gonna be I'm I've here myself
0:02:38transitioning to it all more and more
0:02:39all the time it's just like one where
0:02:42the hell are my slippers understand-
0:02:45three pairs of slippers like it happens
0:02:47to me all the time I started buying
0:02:50multiples of my staple articles of
0:02:52clothing and i still can't find them i
0:02:55have six different carhartt caps and
0:02:58it's unusual that i can find one of them
0:02:59i just keep losing them or miss laying
0:03:02them your carhartt cap is such an icon
0:03:05it's like the Swiss Army knife of
0:03:06headgear yeah it keeps you warm you know
0:03:09a lot of the heat escapes you know
0:03:11through the head to the head yeah yeah
0:03:13and you can take a nap in it you can you
0:03:16can curl all the way up inside it
0:03:18yeah you can go into a little ball and
0:03:19rock just good
0:03:21there's a ladder in there and you just
0:03:23keep climbing up into your hat
0:03:25you know I i was just in New York and I
0:03:28took the plunge
0:03:30i don't i'm not even sure I'm going to
0:03:32tell you about this because you're gonna
0:03:34lie i'm not sure what your reaction is
0:03:36going to be like to think I'm supportive
0:03:38alright well I took the plunge and i
0:03:40bought some skinny jeans
0:03:42oh wow oh yeah you're struggling if I
0:03:46hadn't if I hadn't prefaced that you you
0:03:49might have had a different reaction than
0:03:5025 years ago wasn't worried
0:03:52well that's true that's true but now you
0:03:55know you're in a transitional period
0:03:57you're having a sexy little Jackson know
0:03:58you kidding me I'll come on be serious i
0:04:01said around all weekend just being
0:04:02envious
0:04:03haha just envious I've been envious of
0:04:05you all my friends like for a week not
0:04:07publicly no no but privately envious you
0:04:10guys are you guys are very are sitting
0:04:11around talking about dicks in New York
0:04:13and I'm I'm sitting there watching
0:04:14chinese
0:04:14these depressing so anyway season there
0:04:18you were that you were the missing
0:04:19element
0:04:19haha yeah this is shining comfort
0:04:23no Sean was on point my god he was
0:04:25hilarious and because it's gotten so
0:04:27handsome John giant lovefest oh gosh can
0:04:30we talk about we circle back to that I'd
0:04:31like to hear more about that but it
0:04:33wasn't exactly skinny or they physically
0:04:35skinny they're both right so I'm so
0:04:38here's what happened a year ago Jonathan
0:04:40Coulton and I were playin that christmas
0:04:42show down at the city winery in the in
0:04:45the lower lower part of Manhattan that
0:04:47the meatpacking Soho's or wherever the
0:04:52hell and I jumped up on stage during the
0:04:54soundcheck in a kind of Cavalier Way
0:04:56like yeah I'm a 40-something guy but I'm
0:04:59gonna just I'm not going to take the
0:05:01stairs i'm going to jump up on the stage
0:05:03and a and the crush of my pants ripped
0:05:07out and it was during the soundcheck and
0:05:11I'm like this is you know this is what
0:05:13it's come to I'm 30-something guy and
0:05:16I'm lucky I didn't throw my back out
0:05:19when I jumped up on the stage but i did
0:05:21totally destroyed my kids start to
0:05:24really do just enough cognition to know
0:05:26something is going wrong and you make
0:05:28that the category error trying to
0:05:29compensate midland well and I don't know
0:05:32when I felt and heard the ripping I was
0:05:35like hernia
0:05:36what did I just rip my groin no thank
0:05:40goodness it was just these old khakis
0:05:42so I said to everybody at the show I was
0:05:45like listen I'm not going to play the
0:05:46show with my pants ripped i'm going to
0:05:48go out this is like Manhattan this is a
0:05:50prime shopping district here the west
0:05:53village I'm going to run over i'm going
0:05:56to get a pair of pants so I run out of
0:05:57the venue and I'm going shop to shop
0:06:00through this sort of west village
0:06:03shopping area and every pair of pants is
0:06:05five hundred dollars
0:06:06like I run into a Ralph Lorenz store but
0:06:09it's some kind of flagship Ralph Lorenz
0:06:12store where all the you know and the
0:06:15other that the powerful not like any
0:06:18outlet store you're not gonna get like a
0:06:20forty two dollar pair of pants no I was
0:06:22like what
0:06:22where's the sales where's the sale table
0:06:24and the you know the guy in the shawl
0:06:26collar sweater was just like just
0:06:29chewing me out the door like no thank
0:06:31you your patronage is not welcome now
0:06:34public restrooms so I'm wandering around
0:06:36down there and I'm like I gotta find a
0:06:38pair of pants and I'm em in this strange
0:06:40world where I I've grown used to
0:06:42anywhere in America being able to go 10
0:06:46feet in any direction and find a ten
0:06:47dollar pair of pants made in china and
0:06:50now now I'm in this world where all
0:06:52these pants were hand stitched by some
0:06:54Italian grandmother and I just need a
0:06:57pair of pants it's not i I'm not kidding
0:06:58around and then somebody says to me
0:07:02have you been to uniqlo have you been to
0:07:05uniqlo and i said i don't know i havent
0:07:08and they were like oh that that's your
0:07:10answer and so I run into this store
0:07:13uniqlo which is this giant sort of H&M
0:07:15style place but all the closer from
0:07:19Japan's County it's like target for
0:07:20hipsters super hip everybody in their
0:07:23super hip and I run around and there
0:07:25have been no pants bigger than a 32
0:07:27waist but somewhere up in the very back
0:07:29of the store I find these paints and I
0:07:31really turned out i really liked them I
0:07:33found a pair that fit me it was in some
0:07:35dad on a dad shelf like it I like for
0:07:40the for the dad that I accidentally got
0:07:41dragged into the store there's this one
0:07:44shelf where his daughter you know what
0:07:46were the daughters get some stores have
0:07:48a session with toys
0:07:49the kids can't exactly come over try
0:07:51these like a hardware store with a
0:07:53section of toys
0:07:54this is a hipster store with a one shelf
0:07:57for dads and and and like the largest
0:08:00size they carry is 36 so its place to
0:08:02have to be kind of fit dad's even and I
0:08:05like to think I'm fit that but you know
0:08:07give yourself credit you are also a tall
0:08:09man tall tall i'm told that all fit dad
0:08:12your fear of Falstaff and father
0:08:15yeah i'm not quite fit but tall bad
0:08:16let's see what do you like you're like
0:08:17you're like 62 63
0:08:20x3 and at them at the most i have to say
0:08:23i was over 240 pounds edging to 250
0:08:28pounds that's not that bad it's pretty
0:08:30bad because you know I was shuffling
0:08:33around like a golem think that uniqlo
0:08:37number through the streets of prague
0:08:39enacting vengeance and and that's not
0:08:43how I want to live with the next 40
0:08:45years so anyway so i'm in manhattan
0:08:46again i'm walking around down and on the
0:08:48lower east side i'm looking for Todd
0:08:49Barry's house can i I got lost and then
0:08:52I see the uniqlo and I remember I had a
0:08:54great time in there so i went in again
0:08:57and I'm standing there I'm looking
0:09:02around and there's this big pile of like
0:09:04skinny jeans a thing that I have been
0:09:07opposed to it so i guess i could say
0:09:10it's been a punchline uniqlo skinny
0:09:12jeans have actually been a punchline for
0:09:14a year for you
0:09:15that's right they've been a punchline
0:09:16and and particularly a punch line when
0:09:19an older dad would even fit dad goes
0:09:23into a store like this and thinks to
0:09:25himself I'm going to get some of these
0:09:26skinny jeans you know what I'm a young
0:09:28guy and I did excited precisely that I
0:09:32was like you know i'm a young healthy
0:09:33fit dad gonna get some of these skinny
0:09:36jeans and I got him and i love them and
0:09:42I'm and I don't know what the I don't
0:09:44know what to make of it you know because
0:09:45i want you
0:09:45we've talked about this before i'm
0:09:47always trying to gauge like em because
0:09:50i'm inside myself am I missing some
0:09:53crucial q that I have become that I've
0:09:56emerging into self-parody like em I am I
0:10:01do not want to be the dad who dyes his
0:10:03hair orange out of spite like a tiny
0:10:09ponytail in the back
0:10:10yeah well I mean about that you know
0:10:12that the tiny ponytail we all know not
0:10:14to do but the butt like this the skinny
0:10:17jeans like you see guys you see older
0:10:19guys who are still wearing like really
0:10:21tailored clothes and you're like that
0:10:22guy looks great but then you look over
0:10:24it at the guy over here that's like
0:10:26wearing a nirvana
0:10:29t-shirt and you know it has like a roach
0:10:32clip ear ring and you're like that guy
0:10:33doesn't look great right
0:10:35he's missing he's mr q he's missed some
0:10:38key missed a turn
0:10:39that's right so anyway so I walk out in
0:10:42the skinny jeans and I'm walking down
0:10:43the street about the developed bulb and
0:10:45I'm feeling like I'm i am rocking these
0:10:48skinny jeans
0:10:49I'm legitimately rocking them and
0:10:52they're comfortable and they're
0:10:53inexpensive so Marlon I feel like I'm on
0:10:58a I'm honored there's some there's some
0:11:00precipice MRI came back here to my house
0:11:03after my trip to new york and i'm
0:11:05looking at the clothes in my closet mom
0:11:06like none of these clothes are skinny
0:11:08enough for me anymore
0:11:09oh all these closer like they're all
0:11:11blousy I don't want I don't want blousy
0:11:15pants now that I'm one of the skinny
0:11:16jean generation I can't walk around his
0:11:19handwriting hitting that one pair of
0:11:22skinny jeans has made and then come
0:11:24easiest time away right it helps you get
0:11:26some time way that's the beauty of
0:11:27travel right come back and now you've
0:11:29got a little bit of perspective I got a
0:11:31little bit of perspective and i realized
0:11:33that i have been buying kind of it's
0:11:35hard to buy oversized clothes when you
0:11:37are already an oversized person is that
0:11:39really true in most in most stores it
0:11:42used to be the largest possible size
0:11:44they had was the thing that I needed to
0:11:47buy but now we're living in this triple
0:11:50extra-large world there are a lot of
0:11:53inflation in sizes incredible where you
0:11:55go into a store i mean it used to be in
0:11:57the thrift stores like the XL section of
0:12:00any rack was like five or six items that
0:12:04you know five or six freakish items at
0:12:06the end of the scale was actually being
0:12:08a half inch neck and any was recently is
0:12:10maybe 10 15 x 15 years ago and an XL
0:12:13even accounting for shrinkage over the
0:12:15years and XL in a thrift store would be
0:12:18like a large medium yeah right it barely
0:12:20barely goes over your bellybutton
0:12:22yeah yeah you walk around looking like
0:12:24damien jurado all the time so but now
0:12:27there's quadruple extra larges and I
0:12:30realized that I had I have a lot of like
0:12:32coats jackets like a like a sport coats
0:12:36that don't fit me and all their there i
0:12:40bought them about them they're too large
0:12:43and i was i was trying to do I was
0:12:45trying to make my size seem smaller by
0:12:47one had two big jacket it's not that
0:12:50that's it that is an error people make
0:12:52yeah and so I look like a little boy who
0:12:55was who somebody hit with a grotesquerie
0:12:58ray over four minutes on this listing a
0:13:05couple seconds exactly like hey there's
0:13:07a five-year-old boy and fitted with that
0:13:09damn America but the radon you get the
0:13:13fighter x and then he just like bro good
0:13:16his clothes get big can address the baby
0:13:21elephant in the room is it i feel like
0:13:23i've seen some photos of you I we have
0:13:25not addressed as directly as we try to
0:13:26avoid talking about food and fatherhood
0:13:28would with generally failing all but I
0:13:31know now so with your newfound food
0:13:35paradigm you your new technologies about
0:13:38food
0:13:39have you lost a little weight I've lost
0:13:41a little weight
0:13:42ok night night and i have i have more
0:13:44energy i'm i'm back to feeling youth
0:13:46full and but the John a year ago
0:13:49what would have would have been doubly
0:13:51sarcastic because those are jokey pants
0:13:52for for that you would never even be
0:13:54able to wear right yeah well the John of
0:13:57a year ago in skinny jeans would have
0:13:59looked like a like a blue ice cream cone
0:14:02and it ends up looking like a blue
0:14:06double scoop ice cream cone and and now
0:14:09like yes right exactly
0:14:11denim ice cream giant Christians but now
0:14:16I feel like yeah but even in and out of
0:14:19in and out of downtown crowds and I like
0:14:24to think that my legs are one of my best
0:14:25features
0:14:27you've got Stanton's and and so on my k
0:14:30i'm feeling I'm feeling good i wanna i
0:14:32want to have I want to have some clothes
0:14:34that fit me a little bit better and that
0:14:38you know this is the funny thing about
0:14:39about like where I am now having having
0:14:42changed my eating enough that I feel
0:14:44better
0:14:46and I feel like I look better in my
0:14:48clothes fit better i'm now I'm now
0:14:51struggling against this this tendency
0:14:53this like this radical tendency to be
0:15:01dissatisfied with where I am now and
0:15:04want and set a new goal for myself which
0:15:06is totally unrealistic and soul
0:15:11destroying you know like if if you had
0:15:14told me three months ago that I would
0:15:15look and feel like I do today I would
0:15:18have said that's the goal but having
0:15:21achieved that goal now now I have this
0:15:24like creeping body dysmorphia this is
0:15:29sort of addict behavior where I'm like
0:15:31well alright so I'll I've lost x plus
0:15:33some amount of weight and I feel much
0:15:35better now the goal is to become Jack
0:15:38LaLanne and to swim across San Francisco
0:15:40Bay towing five tugboats with my teeth
0:15:43what up you know like now my goal is to
0:15:46become a like a total like freakish hard
0:15:52body exercise nut who talks to everybody
0:15:55about gluten intolerance on the on
0:15:57public transit and you know and Anna and
0:16:01I catch myself doing it I'm like why are
0:16:03you doing this why are you sabotaging
0:16:04yourself by taking this good this good
0:16:08thing this is unequivocally good thing
0:16:09that you've done simple and good and
0:16:12perverting it into into a mania which
0:16:17you which then you will fail and then
0:16:20like if I hiked I will snatch
0:16:23disappointment from the jaws of victory
0:16:25every time
0:16:26uh-huh so anyway I'm trying to talk
0:16:28myself out of that and just be content
0:16:29to be kind of a you know fit that what
0:16:34you're using your kind of getting out
0:16:35that there are two things here that are
0:16:38worth just separate on the one hand yes
0:16:40you have lost a little weight but let's
0:16:43just say it also you are feeling better
0:16:44you're feeling clearer like me right
0:16:47you're not feeling is I'm in the clear
0:16:49us foggy let's have gone clear you let's
0:16:52say that you have for the sake of
0:16:53argument on clear but it's also like a
0:16:59little bit
0:16:59like I wouldn't not say that you were
0:17:01like calcified but like you have made
0:17:03your peace for better for worse like
0:17:05okay I'm John I don't wear skinny jeans
0:17:06and wire and I don't talk about food but
0:17:09you know I don't wear skinny jeans I
0:17:10don't want to talk about food and I'm
0:17:11gonna have a heart attack when I'm 54
0:17:13you know what Dad biology is destiny
0:17:15right but but but the thing is though
0:17:18now also then that's what the thing
0:17:20inside of all of that those two changes
0:17:21there's also just the fact that now you
0:17:22know now that change is possible which
0:17:24is like a weirdly risky new proposition
0:17:27where is it used to be like think about
0:17:29what you've been talking about fighting
0:17:30all the time for years fighting becoming
0:17:33calcified about music and culture and
0:17:35you know since to stop being progressive
0:17:36in thinking about ideas you don't want
0:17:38to become somebody who's just like stuck
0:17:40in their ways for lack of a better word
0:17:41but it's also a little bit getting scary
0:17:43maybe risky different because now
0:17:45there's this whole world of
0:17:46possibilities out there that unseat your
0:17:48idea of being a blue ice cream cone and
0:17:51now you have taken this new information
0:17:53and you don't have security of just
0:17:55being a big lard-ass
0:17:56well that's precisely it and what I come
0:17:58up against immediately or or almost
0:18:01immediately after I began thinking about
0:18:03this work new world of possibility is
0:18:08that there is a hard wall at the end
0:18:12which is mortality and so so I start to
0:18:17think like well then I'll just get it
0:18:19out get in the best shape of anybody and
0:18:21i'll become immortal and I'll live
0:18:24forever and I'll never get sick and I'll
0:18:26never die and then then you go
0:18:28well no you're actually still 45 but the
0:18:32clock is ticking and you are decaying
0:18:34right before your own eyes and doesn't
0:18:35look as cool as you think like you know
0:18:37you and I Jack LaLanne was pretty much
0:18:39always an old guy in our lifetime and
0:18:42one every year on his birthday
0:18:43hey he do another like feet where you
0:18:46know increasingly less like strictly
0:18:48amazing feats like I'm gonna I'm gonna
0:18:50pull this this locomotive with using
0:18:52only the teeth of my mouth and then next
0:18:55year is like pulling a toy train and
0:18:57then you got that he's just able to hold
0:18:59on to the bit you know and yes so
0:19:02amazing feats but a lot of them involved
0:19:04his teeth
0:19:05this is just weird like that's how to
0:19:07think you can make stronger real
0:19:09but also every was there ever a point in
0:19:11the like you know the 25 years that you
0:19:13and I are aware of that was there ever a
0:19:14point like god that guy sure is manly it
0:19:16was more like all well yeah actually got
0:19:19like all grandpa cool grandfather he's
0:19:21trying both because I think he was four
0:19:23foot eleven and also he was always
0:19:26wearing that leotard he was or that full
0:19:29body like high-waisted jumpsuits it was
0:19:32real creepy and shiny creepy shiny jump
0:19:36student and I never remember thinking
0:19:38like Jack LaLanne that there's a guy he
0:19:40kinda looks like george costanza's
0:19:42father who at a buddy's like pulling a
0:19:45locomotive with his teeth none of that
0:19:47is something I aspire to even as a child
0:19:50it's not like it's not like being like a
0:19:52foxy seven-year-old limit
0:19:54it's like mostly you're a 70 year old
0:19:55woman nothing against but you know what
0:19:56i mean like when you watch a claim you
0:19:58go while he's pretty strong for an old
0:19:59guy but mostly he's an old guy you don't
0:20:01in his mind he is clinging you know
0:20:04cling to youth and vitality and and
0:20:08that's sprightliness that he's with so
0:20:09no well no known for but like we mostly
0:20:12just see somebody getting older and
0:20:13older and fighting it
0:20:14have you noticed this about I mean I I'm
0:20:17feeling this way now watching Clint
0:20:18Eastwood age and and like Harrison Ford
0:20:23age and all those Hollywood stars that
0:20:28were that were always much older than us
0:20:31but they were in the our whole lives
0:20:35they were kind of in their vital
0:20:36middle-aged they were and they ma
0:20:39persisted in it long past like when they
0:20:43were 60 years old they were still and
0:20:45they're all still like Robert Redford
0:20:47that you know they were all still to use
0:20:49that phrase and 76 symbols there are
0:20:51still people we go Harrison Ford it's
0:20:53creepy that is in this movie went with
0:20:54Winona Ryder but he's definitely like a
0:20:56handsome handsome yet jack nicholson I
0:20:58mean these guys at 60 years old were
0:21:00paired with 24 year-old actresses and it
0:21:03wasn't a hundred percent cool but but it
0:21:06also like use we still we still were
0:21:09projecting a tremendous like a linear in
0:21:12ashton kutcher or something I wasn't
0:21:13something where you go that's kind of
0:21:15strange but now watching them they are
0:21:18like genuinely old people now
0:21:21and it is reflected a like it
0:21:24it reflects to me like watching watching
0:21:27Clint Eastwood cut daughter around like
0:21:30a like an end like a small end is making
0:21:35me making me sad like melancholy yeah I
0:21:41just a trailer for the new captain
0:21:42america movie
0:21:43Robert reference in it and you know he's
0:21:45he's still a good-looking guy but he's
0:21:47definitely an old guy now here I didn't
0:21:49look at the Chippendale couch he and
0:21:55like Harrison Ford was in that Jackie
0:21:57Robinson movie and I can kind of didn't
0:22:00recognize him at first really well i
0:22:02mean i think he's definitely taking that
0:22:03turn around the old lesbian look busy
0:22:06no God no I just look at that website
0:22:09the other day
0:22:10oh my god what is it it's it's men who
0:22:13look like old lesbians is that the site
0:22:16oh my god I cannot see that pretty rude
0:22:18but but I'm taking off your point but it
0:22:21is there is definitely a certain point
0:22:23you get a Robert Evans boy you
0:22:24definitely got this is a point that we
0:22:26look at people like wow you know that's
0:22:28ok here's an example like George Clooney
0:22:29George Clooney is still in extremely
0:22:31handsome middle-aged guy Harrison Ford
0:22:34was Harrison for 15 years older
0:22:36something like that maybe no I think
0:22:37he's in his seventies isn't it is that
0:22:39right i heard say I clinics was getting
0:22:42divorced she mentioned being his agent
0:22:43divorced so sad
0:22:45that's a lot of work when I just said
0:22:46that when I just said I think he's in
0:22:48the seventies I made that likes crunchy
0:22:50scrunchy nose face this face
0:22:52I know but i'll be up like a UK person
0:22:55because it is 78 it's like kinda shows
0:22:59up in the air like quickly knows I don't
0:23:01know why I did it I never make this is
0:23:03what is that I know exactly what she
0:23:04does it mean when we do that
0:23:06yeah it kinda gotta get your locker
0:23:07Roberts ice is actually good secretary
0:23:10it's like somebody handed you a kind of
0:23:12kickbox candy you don't like ya got
0:23:15cashews in it and then your nose goes up
0:23:18and your teeth come out
0:23:19yeah what about that one didn't know
0:23:21that I was what what why that inspired
0:23:23me to to suddenly turn into is something
0:23:25weird like copperfield it is you even as
0:23:28they turn into Chippendale furniture and
0:23:30you know Robert rivers always had a
0:23:31certain kind of ruggedness
0:23:32you know complexion wise but I but there
0:23:36is there is i don't know what happens
0:23:38even if you'd like don't get plastic
0:23:39surgery you do kind of start to look
0:23:40like a woman you estrogen eyes a little
0:23:43bit yeah well I you know the first time
0:23:46I really saw that in inaction was one of
0:23:49the first time I saw the psychedelic
0:23:51furs right he said either click
0:23:54somebody's grandmother it just looked
0:23:56like you look like a skinny little
0:23:58grandma and and I was so I'm so
0:24:01astonished at the at the gender bender
0:24:05eNOS of it because you know as a rock
0:24:07star
0:24:08you're always gender-bending but not
0:24:11quite all the way to like I'm your
0:24:12grandma you think its substance abuse
0:24:14because you didn't anymore start to get
0:24:16that Keith Moon as young as he was he
0:24:18started to get that little bit i bet
0:24:20it's I bet it's I bet it's riding hard
0:24:22on the body partly i'm still astonished
0:24:25at how young keith moon was when he died
0:24:27and i'm amazed to see I once again i did
0:24:29my my monthly viewing of a quick one
0:24:31while he's away from the rock and roll
0:24:33I want to look good i want you once a
0:24:35month because it's the greatest rural
0:24:36parts of all time and really and you
0:24:38watch it and but I mean even when you
0:24:39look at something like you watch you
0:24:41know watching with the giant headphones
0:24:42doing who are you
0:24:44what's it like to and said he was like
0:24:4832 or most incredible right look 60
0:24:51looks so I mean the he went it was funny
0:24:53that like even around starting around
0:24:55Tommy you know I don't know I think
0:24:59maybe I know I keep Richard same thing
0:25:01again
0:25:01suddenly they just look different like
0:25:03within a period like two years they look
0:25:04like completely different people
0:25:06yeah that's that's right but keep
0:25:09continue to be I think gorgeous all the
0:25:11way through 82 I mean through that whole
0:25:15fifth that first initial period when he
0:25:17was with a better at one point like
0:25:19feathers in his hair and that was kinda
0:25:21cool but like there's a point even when
0:25:22they're like pretty popular where he
0:25:24look like an old witch
0:25:25yeah and then he started looking more
0:25:27like a pirate he flushed out a little
0:25:29bit yeah
0:25:30Anakin looks like yours and jager
0:25:33haha looks like a fucking slot such it
0:25:37looks like a chariot that somebody
0:25:38stepped out on a strike and yet maybe
0:25:42he'll live forever I mean maybe he is
0:25:43the one
0:25:44yeah you think a lot of that from
0:25:45smoking right there smoking give you
0:25:47that kind of drawn look well and again
0:25:49it's another that said it's a factor of
0:25:51like it's a physiological factor of him
0:25:55being literally five-foot-two he is so
0:25:59small
0:26:00all those guys in the rolling stones are
0:26:02so small you know that you could put you
0:26:05could put the entire rolling stones in a
0:26:06pint glass and and then and then put
0:26:10probably half a can of whipped cream in
0:26:14into like half a spray canister whipped
0:26:17cream and it wouldn't overflow the
0:26:19pointless for their that small so they
0:26:23were made you know I think the rolling
0:26:26stones were like bread to chase rats
0:26:28down holes or I mean they are different
0:26:30almost a different kind of human being
0:26:33from the lumbering like stone trolls
0:26:37that were mine ancestors you're so
0:26:42mythic I says here Keith Richards is 59
0:26:46but I'll bony below me think something
0:26:48at least 59 in Prince boots
0:26:51oh boy Ron would look at that guy
0:26:56now he have you ever watched the videos
0:26:58the youtube videos of run would onstage
0:27:02like shit faced and now no I was in
0:27:05small faces stuff but I've never seen
0:27:07that now there's that there's some like
0:27:09footage of him in the nineties i think
0:27:11where he's on stage and he's just
0:27:14pilotto and you even though he's one of
0:27:19the richest and most successful
0:27:20musicians in the world you want to you
0:27:23can't help but feel sorry for him
0:27:24because he is so dogged by his you know
0:27:29by the by the feeling that like he's he
0:27:32has to wake up and drink four bottles of
0:27:34cognac a day because he has never known
0:27:37anything different I mean I don't know
0:27:39where he's at right now but there are
0:27:40some videos on on the Internet of of Ron
0:27:43Wood stumbling around and like just
0:27:46I just don't find that as appealing as I
0:27:47used to you know I can see how the like
0:27:51I don't know
0:27:52yeah i'm reading I know you're you're a
0:27:55fan of these kinds of accounts to like
0:27:56reading about the making of what's wrong
0:28:00with rocks off the famous one of the
0:28:02record of my stuff that's no no you know
0:28:05that one the one the one where like a
0:28:08with a French police were like trying to
0:28:10like they were like rating keeps house
0:28:12oh my god oh you're talking about you're
0:28:14mad but did a double record of the why
0:28:18did you do that you just you just do you
0:28:19just tell you the record out of my mind
0:28:22it was your mean streets it's a tumbling
0:28:26dice its up so wow this is real Exile on
0:28:30Main Street yes on you pushed it you
0:28:34actually push that turd back in my brain
0:28:37yeah i got the turtle back in the show I
0:28:39had to like but we got two counts of
0:28:42like to them trying to make that record
0:28:43something for Charlie wat was always
0:28:45like a pretty like a normal english guy
0:28:47who drank tea and had a job playing
0:28:49drums you know it just hasn't just been
0:28:51miserable to be an environment like that
0:28:53everybody's just all fucked up all the
0:28:55time and how many did not make things
0:28:57good no heroin is a bad drug but Charlie
0:29:00I think rented a house like a hundred
0:29:02and fifty miles again in central France
0:29:05or something where he didn't speak any
0:29:07French and he complained the whole time
0:29:08that he couldn't get James T and yeah
0:29:11it's just the I just picture him like
0:29:14walking down to the corner store and and
0:29:17saying the guy no Pimm's but it is there
0:29:20like record in the basement I mean it
0:29:22sounds like it's not like the whole
0:29:23thing was just such a debacle it's
0:29:25amazing the record turnout as well as it
0:29:26did but I just don't know when your
0:29:28account stuff like that when I was in
0:29:29you know even in college I go wow that's
0:29:32really cool it's you know to begin back
0:29:34to desis on tits a decadent like you
0:29:36just you sit around and you know you
0:29:38make rock music in any like don't know
0:29:41what day it is and man that is so
0:29:43ridiculously unappealing this time to me
0:29:45now i'm sure my wife feels ten times
0:29:47more but I think I'll boy will be nice
0:29:48to have a week to just go dick around
0:29:50and not have to be anywhere but
0:29:51man the idea of like sitting around
0:29:53basement in France doing heroin is like
0:29:54just not my idea of fun
0:29:56yeah well I i come up against this all
0:29:59the time because you know I haven't I
0:30:00have not uh had like a substance like a
0:30:05mind-altering substance I've not had any
0:30:08alcohol or drugs in almost 20 years but
0:30:13i have resolute lira fused to live in a
0:30:16sober ghetto of life and so I spend
0:30:20almost all my time around people who are
0:30:24on drugs and some of my very good
0:30:27friends are on drugs like lit like like
0:30:30seriously like still on drugs not so
0:30:34sure you shitting me
0:30:35yeah not just like getting stoned
0:30:36sometime just talking about drinking a
0:30:38lot and smoking weed i'm talking about
0:30:39drinking a lot and also taking drugs
0:30:43serious drugs hard drugs and being a
0:30:45drug drug person and being in denial
0:30:47about what being a drug person means for
0:30:51them
0:30:52short-term and long-term I mean this is
0:30:54true of some very close friends of mine
0:30:56and also a lot of people that i know
0:30:59socially and and so i'm i'm always in
0:31:03the am
0:31:04oh I'm almost every day I am confronted
0:31:07with the question again like why are
0:31:13people taking drugs do you
0:31:16John want to go back on drugs like every
0:31:19day I ask myself would you like to go
0:31:22back on drugs right now
0:31:23hey tried skinny jeans there are drugs
0:31:25all around you all the time would you
0:31:27are you interested in taking some drugs
0:31:29and i took a lot of drugs so I don't
0:31:33have us
0:31:34I like when I quit drinking it was right
0:31:37before the single-malt Scotch revolution
0:31:40and the flavored alcohol the artisanal
0:31:44alcohol scene so there are a lot of
0:31:47alcohols that I missed out on you quit
0:31:50you quit around like Rolling Rock
0:31:52getting popular
0:31:53yeah right i started i stopped drinking
0:31:55alcohol in 1994 yeah and immediately
0:32:00afterward
0:32:01like you know wine snobbery was always a
0:32:03thing but immediately it seems like
0:32:05immediately afterward in the late
0:32:06nineties it was all that whiskey talk
0:32:10and all the like oh you've got to try
0:32:11this it's from the barrel that is Sir
0:32:14Walter Reilly once piston on his way to
0:32:16and it's like a haha well you know I
0:32:19drank a lot of whiskey and maybe it
0:32:21wasn't great whiskey and a lot of times
0:32:24it was still worst whiskey was ten hi
0:32:27whiskey out of a gallon plastic jug but
0:32:30I don't you know like i did not have
0:32:34very much melancholy about not savoring
0:32:36the great whiskey's you know but as far
0:32:39as like pharmaceutical drugs go what to
0:32:44whatever degree new technologies have
0:32:46produced in new ways of feeling like
0:32:48your hands are like two balloons
0:32:52um I like there's there's no new high
0:32:56that I feel like I missed out on except
0:32:58maybe bath salts or what's that other
0:33:02that that ship they smell sativa or you
0:33:06smoked this stuff not sativa us i think
0:33:10something some new suitor pot herbal
0:33:13thing that you smoke and have like like
0:33:16two minute long pcp hallucination God
0:33:21and and yeah it's really it's really big
0:33:25with it with a certain kind of william
0:33:27gibson adoring cyberpunk always having a
0:33:30special dispenser that clicks or
0:33:32something
0:33:33I you know that's the thing i think you
0:33:34get a lot of people hooked on drugs it
0:33:36was more like a silicate dick novel yeah
0:33:38if you had a little like a subject some
0:33:40kind of how many look like inhalers well
0:33:43all drugs are headed toward inhaler
0:33:45status i think now people are in hit
0:33:47their inhaling their weed and we're just
0:33:49gonna be we're just gonna it's gonna be
0:33:51like dune where the where everybody
0:33:54walked around the tube in their mouths
0:33:55but in any case so every day I'm
0:33:58confronted a new you know sometimes in
0:34:02the company of people that I that I
0:34:04don't just admire but a door
0:34:06who at a certain point in the night our
0:34:09are like fucked up
0:34:13pinned eyeballs and Mike and and not
0:34:16falling down but like not doing good but
0:34:19like not in control of your faculties no
0:34:22longer let's say no not a good
0:34:24conversation it's no longer fun
0:34:26yeah that it becomes it becomes a rescue
0:34:28mission at a certain point like we got a
0:34:30chopper this guy out of the LZ and
0:34:33getting back to Saigon to triage at
0:34:36saigon being like his or her apartment
0:34:38where they're going to see what they're
0:34:40gonna sit in front of the television
0:34:41until they pass out and so but but but
0:34:44i'm always reflecting internally like it
0:34:47is there something about that that is
0:34:49appealing to me do I pursue this anymore
0:34:53even in my imagination why are my
0:34:56friends even in middle age still so
0:34:59attracted to this and it's it's not an
0:35:02academic question because it comes up
0:35:06over and over my relationships with
0:35:08these people are hamstrung not because
0:35:11there's a gulf between us because I
0:35:12don't do drugs but because there's a
0:35:14gulf between them and everyone
0:35:15yeah because they are because they are
0:35:18using these drugs as a substitute for
0:35:20for you know for authentic feeling or
0:35:24for growing like a certain point doesn't
0:35:26matter what started out as a substitute
0:35:27for because now it's the load-bearing
0:35:29wall right exactly but this question of
0:35:32like is it glam is keith richards
0:35:34glamorous is is drug-taking glamorous
0:35:37where is the glamour in X and when it
0:35:41becomes you know what it transitions
0:35:43from like I'm 22
0:35:45what are my limits to like I'm 42 and
0:35:50this is my pattern up
0:35:54I mean I don't like I say I see people
0:35:57in all stages of being fucked up and the
0:36:01and I don't and I know what it feels
0:36:03like from inside and I honestly don't
0:36:05understand how it retains this hold on
0:36:08people beyond just the
0:36:11like the physical need that manifests
0:36:14itself in their minds as an emotional
0:36:17need you know I was watching this
0:36:19special the other day
0:36:20Trey Parker and Matt Stone went to the
0:36:23oscars in those dresses remember that no
0:36:2615 years ago or something that they were
0:36:29they were dresses to the Oscars and
0:36:31music music it was in all the it was on
0:36:33the third page of every newspaper but
0:36:36they were on LSD
0:36:37oh yeah and-and-and I was watching the
0:36:41there was kind of a little bit of
0:36:43footage of them like on the wrist on the
0:36:46red carpet it like and clearly tripping
0:36:49balls and I look at that and I go okay
0:36:54that is that's pretty cool that's the
0:36:56thing to have done it would be cool to
0:36:58have gone to the Oscars on LSD but even
0:37:03even that I mean watching them standing
0:37:06there and like their eyes bugging out
0:37:07and and their their mouths really dry
0:37:11and then knowing that they were that the
0:37:15joke was going to wear off when they
0:37:16went in and had to sit in a chair for
0:37:18two two-and-a-half hours or four hours
0:37:20or however long sit in a chair
0:37:21surrounded by a monster lizard people is
0:37:26really it's better to close it it might
0:37:32take away was like even that kinda is
0:37:34only cool to have done it wasn't
0:37:38probably even cool to you by the way I
0:37:40think about I never thought about this
0:37:42till just now but i think if i look at
0:37:45the way that I dealt with substances
0:37:48when I was younger I would have said
0:37:49this at the time but think about with
0:37:52most people just think about like even
0:37:53if you're dumb frat-boy think about all
0:37:54the competition about drinking and like
0:37:57who's gonna drink more or who can who
0:37:59can usually like going to not pass out
0:38:00but even in my own case like in a way I
0:38:03i think it was me like facing down
0:38:06facing down the substances like I could
0:38:09I could do a lot of this i could take a
0:38:11lot of that and what is that every
0:38:13Cheryl relationship that frenemy
0:38:15relationship with substances that made
0:38:18it fun because it is really no fun to
0:38:20get your ass kicked by you know taking
0:38:23way too much of something
0:38:24but you can have a fun adversarial
0:38:27relationship with weed where you keep
0:38:29pushing it as far as you can until
0:38:30you're almost a crazy person and that's
0:38:32fun for a while it's just that I think
0:38:35at some i'm gonna guess that some
0:38:38certain point it stops being a social
0:38:41thing and it stops being something where
0:38:43you're a worthy opponent and then the
0:38:47substance starttswinning and you sort of
0:38:49our slumped in the backseat while the
0:38:50substance drives in some ways where you
0:38:53know when you're young like you might
0:38:55want to say all man I've trip and really
0:38:56hard this is really really great i hope
0:38:58it'll trip anymore i'm gonna lose my
0:38:59mind but then as you get older I mean
0:39:02that becomes more about if you like a
0:39:04habit it's a company unfortunate choice
0:39:06of words but something that you start
0:39:08doing a lot i don't think it has that
0:39:10same spirit anymore i think i think it's
0:39:12become something that you do so much and
0:39:14so often that it becomes the equivalent
0:39:16of a vitamin or of reading the paper or
0:39:19something or you know or a coffee
0:39:20whatever it is but I i know i don't feel
0:39:22that I think when i hear something like
0:39:24oh man can imagine going on having a
0:39:25week-long binge and just call my god no
0:39:28i can't imagine that making you want to
0:39:30take a nap just hearing it right now
0:39:32yeah and and but I didn't that make
0:39:34sense because it seems to me that that
0:39:36was at least some cum component of your
0:39:38of your deal was that facing it down and
0:39:42like you're not gonna you're not gonna
0:39:43kick my ass buddy i'm gonna kick your
0:39:44ass like you're going to have to knock
0:39:46me out you think you can take me alcohol
0:39:48you're gonna have to knock me out you
0:39:50know name and alcohol very seldom could
0:39:52knock me out exactly and that's that's
0:39:53what yeah but don't have an element part
0:39:57of it i always think of it as a as a
0:39:59dance with the feeling and I mean those
0:40:03those are early experiences with drugs
0:40:07were this tremendously powerful and
0:40:09positive dance with feeling because as a
0:40:13young person my emotions were all
0:40:16completely walled off and i did not have
0:40:19a way of expressing joy or fear even or
0:40:23I mean at all emotions got channeled
0:40:26into either depression or you know that
0:40:32the sort of this kind of equilibrium
0:40:35or like like a surface sarcasm sarcasm
0:40:41was was my positive emotion and
0:40:42depressive repression was my negative 1
0:40:45when I discovered these drugs it was so
0:40:48exciting because I had a I had a I had a
0:40:50relationship with feeling all of a
0:40:51sudden and you could drink three bottles
0:40:55and James and be loved and suddenly be
0:41:00available to people and be in a room and
0:41:04feel like I feel like a new relationship
0:41:08to positive feelings and then also a
0:41:13one-legged a nuanced relationship with
0:41:16negative feelings and so those that
0:41:18those early experiences are so we're so
0:41:20amazing to me because like you could
0:41:21acknowledge the negativity without
0:41:23becoming too involved in it Ryder I
0:41:25didn't you know I yeah I guess a little
0:41:26bit of temporary distance from something
0:41:28that used to be consuming yeah I could
0:41:30or i could yell at my friend about some
0:41:33things that he was doing that I that
0:41:36during normal working hours i would just
0:41:38I would never confront him up just I
0:41:41would stare at the floor and he would
0:41:42stare at the floor and but as time went
0:41:46on you know I picture myself at 23 years
0:41:51old up on a couch with my 25th beer in
0:41:56my hand and a pot pipe in my other hand
0:41:59and a tip of chewing tobacco in my lip
0:42:04and a cigarette burning in the ashtray
0:42:06and an eighth of mushrooms wearing off
0:42:10in LA and I'm thinking okay I've gotta I
0:42:15and all know it's done what is right and
0:42:19then I'm sitting there like just about
0:42:21the need something I need a shot of
0:42:23tequila like it's a graphic it's like an
0:42:2511 band equalizer involving your mind
0:42:28like yeah you're just weak the little
0:42:29that's right feel like I'm laying on
0:42:31this couch and I've got a I've got a
0:42:32shield on me and then I've got a garbage
0:42:35can lid on top of that and then a
0:42:37blanket and then a one of those silver
0:42:40blankets that keeps you warm in winter
0:42:42and then a big sign that says you know
0:42:45don't touch like how many layers
0:42:48of protection against feeling do I need
0:42:51at a certain point like a like feeling
0:42:53at be having using drugs to reveal
0:42:58feeling to myself and to reveal myself
0:43:02to feeling then I wasn't that what what
0:43:06what alcohol and drugs don't do is equip
0:43:09you to incorporate real feeling into
0:43:13your life and so then those feelings
0:43:17become overwhelming but you're not
0:43:20developing skills to incorporate them or
0:43:25grow in those feelings and so then
0:43:27you're surrounded by intense feelings
0:43:29you can't incorporate and then you're
0:43:32just trying to protect yourself against
0:43:36your feelings and as time went on
0:43:39i'm i'm i'm on this couch under the
0:43:42weight of 25 garbage can lids just
0:43:46trying to keep the just trying to feel
0:43:49safe you know and what what the fuck was
0:43:52that dipper chewing tobacco supposed to
0:43:54do like I'm so fucked up I can I can't
0:43:58put lift my feet up on the coffee table
0:43:59but I'm like I needed to I just you know
0:44:02what the chiz gonna even me out like the
0:44:05chair and I've got my boring I'm already
0:44:06smoking a cigarette and I output a dip
0:44:09in just to like who
0:44:11that's things going to cut the all about
0:44:15feeling part that's interesting
0:44:16yeah but and as time goes on when you
0:44:18get to be 40 years old and you have been
0:44:20you've been using drugs and alcohol as
0:44:23your as your substitution for feeling or
0:44:28as your proxy for your actual feelings
0:44:31or as your compressor limiter for
0:44:33feeling compressor limiter for feelings
0:44:35you know it starts to get you start to
0:44:38get scared and I think it happens a lot
0:44:40lot lot before you're forty I mean you
0:44:45start to get scared pretty early because
0:44:47you don't have another you don't have
0:44:50another way of of of compressing and
0:44:53limiting feelings and so consequently
0:44:56they feel like maybe they are on maybe
0:44:58they have unlimited power
0:45:00and if you don't have these things to
0:45:02tamp them down or just to look at them
0:45:03through maybe they will may be unleashed
0:45:08they will poison you or destroy you this
0:45:10in the second they get the chance that's
0:45:12what it feels like you know you feel
0:45:14like oh my god these feelings are going
0:45:17to overwhelm me and without you know
0:45:20without my like garbage can lids I'm
0:45:26just I'm just in a lie can just a naked
0:45:29scallop just pulsating on the beach
0:45:31waiting for the Siegel of feelings to
0:45:36pluck me from my shell I used to really
0:45:41like i got is planning on sticking the
0:45:45other day of the guy i had this this
0:45:46feeling in this thought that I did not
0:45:48want to acknowledge but I I'm guess I'm
0:45:51acknowledging it now by saying it is I
0:45:54used to I used to completely poopoo what
0:45:57people would say about you know all the
0:45:59kind of scare stuff in the 60s
0:46:00especially about what psychedelics with
0:46:02do you know how would fry your brain and
0:46:04and all that kind of stuff and you know
0:46:06I with that said I I knew enough people
0:46:09at my college who did ecstasy every
0:46:11weekend to see that it didn't take more
0:46:12than a few months of doing ecstasy every
0:46:14weekend to be a really different person
0:46:16uh-huh
0:46:17like I don't need to do a spinal tap I'm
0:46:19just here to tell you that you're really
0:46:20you're really you've gotten real goofy
0:46:22like a person but there's I the other
0:46:24day I was just sitting there and
0:46:25thinking and i'm like done I'm having a
0:46:27lot of really exotic stuff ain't no it
0:46:31was all really mostly over for your auto
0:46:35asphyxiation ya got a special Marc Maron
0:46:38belt I I am I you know what it is i was
0:46:42thinking well I guess what I was
0:46:44thinking was I wonder I wonder in my
0:46:45heart of hearts if problems i ever have
0:46:47with all the seven dwarves of bad
0:46:50emotions you know of like of all the
0:46:52anxiety fear worry
0:46:54uh I i always wonder whether there's
0:46:57things about my cognition that got
0:46:59thrown arm off of true
0:47:03bye-bye second docks and I never want to
0:47:05think about it i believe it's not i
0:47:06don't feel like racked or anything like
0:47:07that but I do think about that because I
0:47:10that's what I enjoyed the feeling stuff
0:47:12she
0:47:13or for me but more I loved just having a
0:47:16sense of humor that I've got and having
0:47:17the did I don't know just the dark the
0:47:20dark inner world that I've got there
0:47:22would be things about tripping and
0:47:24thinking about high school and how
0:47:25stupid something was that just let me
0:47:28know when I smoke pot to laugh at stuff
0:47:30yeah not so much for feeling but there
0:47:32was something about being able to
0:47:33reframe an event and think of it a
0:47:36different way I'm obviously start
0:47:37laughing really stupid Stephanie that's
0:47:38what I loved but that's what I working
0:47:40well I wonder if my sights got knocked
0:47:43off to the left to the right a little
0:47:44too much from those days everyone giving
0:47:47wonder about that well and I think it i
0:47:49think i think when i say feelings I mean
0:47:51that yet using the drugs to get to that
0:47:57to get to that place of two even the
0:48:00lightheartedness or the the vision of
0:48:03the world that that the that the drugs
0:48:07provide like it I i still feel like it's
0:48:10all in the language of feelings you know
0:48:13or in the language of like translating
0:48:15your thoughts and feelings into into
0:48:18like up like a thing that you can
0:48:24approximate the thing that you can
0:48:25handle and I mean I i still have I guess
0:48:31what I what I could only describe as
0:48:33flashbacks in the sense that I i revisit
0:48:37the thing that I only ever saw or only
0:48:40ever felt under psychedelic so I don't
0:48:43feel like it's a flashback like oh the
0:48:45choppers you know yeah like the song I
0:48:48mean that all that vehicle stuff that I
0:48:50see is in real time and it's happening
0:48:52now but the but like you know those
0:48:55moments where you realize through
0:48:57psychedelics like how how small and
0:49:00inane human endeavor is but also how
0:49:05like how beautiful and how koyaanisqatsi
0:49:09it is that that stuff still happens and
0:49:13i'll still see a certain cast of light
0:49:15that kind of excites the excites that
0:49:18part of my brain but I don't feel like I
0:49:20was broken or even even bent out of true
0:49:25so much as well buy drugs as much as I
0:49:33was by the by the punishment that I
0:49:38inflicted on myself during those years
0:49:40you know I didn't need to punish myself
0:49:42so hard and it made me a different
0:49:45person by virtue of just the i don't
0:49:51think i have like a cacao our reaction
0:49:55it's kind of the opposite you know I
0:49:57like lead with my nose yeah but-but-but
0:50:01that whole business of scheduling drugs
0:50:04like and I and I see this all the time
0:50:06particularly now that that pot is legal
0:50:08in Washington State this this huge
0:50:11advocacy that people feel that pot is a
0:50:15medicine or that it's a sacrament or
0:50:20that it you know Potter's is better than
0:50:23alcohol but worse than cigarettes but
0:50:28maybe better than cigarettes or that LSD
0:50:31is dangerous in San Francisco you can
0:50:33smoke pot a lot more places and
0:50:34cigarettes
0:50:35well yeah and now I mean there are
0:50:37people that would never smoke a
0:50:39cigarette that are smoking pot of
0:50:41up-and-down well in somebody's house
0:50:42like it's not unusual to be at a party
0:50:44and somebody's park city boy you light
0:50:46up a cigarette right there throwing the
0:50:48fireplace yeah but but for me like I I
0:50:52never there was a while where I felt
0:50:54just socially the where we all get
0:51:00pressured into thinking of drugs on a on
0:51:03a schedule and heroin and crack or
0:51:07somehow way out in the distance and pot
0:51:10okay and aspirin are up here in the
0:51:15foreground and this whole gateway drug
0:51:19idea but for me personally like I have
0:51:27I i tried all those drugs and had a kind
0:51:31of profound experience with each one of
0:51:33them and they each have a kind of
0:51:35magical piece of the puzzle to deliver
0:51:38and i have watched people suffer under
0:51:44all those drugs and the people that I
0:51:47know in their forties who are laboring
0:51:49under their marijuana addiction are at
0:51:54just as much a disadvantage as the
0:51:57people i know in their forties who are
0:51:59still heroin addicts and are managing
0:52:01that problem that's been the pot people
0:52:03are like God love them they're
0:52:05surrounded by other people who are more
0:52:08than happy to agree with them about how
0:52:09like getting really stoned a couple
0:52:12times a day is just didn't really you
0:52:15find a lot of commonality or comedy you
0:52:18know I mean like meeting other people
0:52:19like that you kind of check each other
0:52:21on the shoulder and garlic
0:52:22it's cool that we get really wasted like
0:52:23at least once a day and that becomes
0:52:26that becomes totally normal and then you
0:52:28surround yourself with that and that
0:52:29becomes I don't mean to sound judgey
0:52:31but like i just had met some people that
0:52:33just it seems like they're in a constant
0:52:34stupor and don't have any way to realize
0:52:36that they're in a constant super well
0:52:38i'm particularly like over the course of
0:52:4020 years of smoking pot when when like
0:52:43like any drug or like any food if pot is
0:52:46both the reward for a job well done and
0:52:49a good day and pot is also the
0:52:52consolation for a bad day then what pot
0:52:57is what you are doing instead of having
0:53:01feelings what you are doing instead of
0:53:03sitting there and thinking about what
0:53:04happened today and feeling those
0:53:07feelings again and processing it and
0:53:09growing right at the pot is at least
0:53:13interjecting itself where you are
0:53:15intersecting it in between your real
0:53:18lived experience and the very necessary
0:53:21sort of proto dreaming that we all need
0:53:25to do at the end of the day words like
0:53:26today was a bad day i had a bad day
0:53:28today and i don't i'm not going to watch
0:53:31TV right now I'm not going to have a hit
0:53:35of pot or a glass of wine i'm going to
0:53:37sit here for a minute and i'm just going
0:53:39to reflect on what
0:53:40and down and if if you're not doing that
0:53:43then you then you are in a kind of
0:53:48whirlpool where you're just going back
0:53:51out the next day and hoping that it
0:53:53doesn't happen again but you're not
0:53:54you're not you're not reflecting you're
0:53:58introducing another element into the
0:54:00reflection that is supposed to you know
0:54:05that you say to yourself is calming you
0:54:07or is making in that glass of wine is
0:54:10necessary to unwind at the end of the
0:54:13day and it's like really is unwinding
0:54:15what you need to be doing or do you need
0:54:18to be like wondering what you know like
0:54:22wondering what happened and and and what
0:54:25to do differently so I I feel like like
0:54:30I I know a guy in Seattle who runs a
0:54:32multimillion-dollar enterprise and every
0:54:37day he gets up in the morning and he
0:54:40makes a bunch of business decisions that
0:54:41are that keep his business going and
0:54:45keep the and keep the money coming in
0:54:48and then he goes out to lunch and by two
0:54:52o'clock in the afternoon he has had a
0:54:55handful of pills four lines off the back
0:54:58of a toilet he spent six hundred dollars
0:55:01at lunch and consume two bottles of
0:55:04something and then he goes back to work
0:55:07Wow and from a contact high bottom
0:55:10sometimes very very high vada clock to
0:55:14six o'clock he continues to make
0:55:16business decisions right but now he is
0:55:20he is basically undoing the work he does
0:55:23every morning and somehow he makes it
0:55:25you know like somehow he gets to the end
0:55:26of the day and he is like little is some
0:55:30wine and unwind after that
0:55:31yeah a little bit of white on wine he's
0:55:33borderline date raping his assistant is
0:55:36like everybody in the town is like this
0:55:39guy
0:55:40oh my god like somebody stop him but of
0:55:42course nobody can and because he's a
0:55:45millionaire
0:55:46everybody's just like well you know he
0:55:48is a millionaire
0:55:49he is he does make it work somehow
0:55:51and what for whatever however this guy's
0:55:54metabolism works everything about it so
0:55:55they kind of grudging admiration
0:55:58well never seriously I mean we go wow
0:56:00that I mean it hasn't fallen apart yet
0:56:02right but also a kind of a kind of fear
0:56:04that's in everybody of like well I want
0:56:06you know it's one thing to confront a
0:56:07guy who is who is that is vomiting on
0:56:11himself on the sidewalk in front of the
0:56:13bar but it's another thing to confront a
0:56:15guy who's being helped into his limo by
0:56:18his two assistants especially if you and
0:56:22I can't afford a limo it yeah right you
0:56:25seem like you know ungraceful to to
0:56:27point that out say like hey you know
0:56:30what all these you know this limo and
0:56:32these two assistants and all these drugs
0:56:33are just garbage can lids that you're
0:56:35piling on top of yourself on the couch
0:56:37and maybe you should have a chew depart
0:56:38hit neck neck be two people should take
0:56:41it too because that's really gonna take
0:56:42the edge off but you know i mean there
0:56:46isn't it there it by the same token you
0:56:49know I look at him and I know he's
0:56:50running a business at a level that that
0:56:53escapes me
0:56:54do not get up at five o'clock in the
0:56:56morning and make six hours of really
0:56:57super good business decisions before
0:56:59taking my first like a handful of
0:57:03percocets
0:57:04I I got up this morning and drank coffee
0:57:07out of a beer mug in the bathtub reading
0:57:10about Sandra Bullock haven't had a
0:57:12hadn't haven't had a single sex crime
0:57:14all day not i said i have not I have not
0:57:16made an assistant feel weird about
0:57:21herself
0:57:23I'll in 40 now yeah you're really
0:57:25limiting yourself and i think when i
0:57:29don't know i don't say when it's younger
0:57:31when you're younger but I i think
0:57:32there's there if if you're going to try
0:57:34and summarize a lot of what makes people
0:57:39on accidentally doing toxicants it has
0:57:43something to do with what i would call
0:57:45the possibilities of self when you're
0:57:48very young I think it's hard to really
0:57:50understand all the possibilities of self
0:57:52for better or for worse and in your case
0:57:54that might make you feel less inhibited
0:57:56to say something or feel something or to
0:57:59be aware of a feeling that you have
0:58:00that's a certain kind of possibility of
0:58:02self but i mean i think pretty much all
0:58:04the drugs
0:58:05and we're talking about have those
0:58:07qualities to them where you know if you
0:58:10do a whole bunch of blow i'm given to
0:58:11believe your possibilities of self can
0:58:13seem extremely ambitious you feel pretty
0:58:16good about the future pretty selfie in
0:58:19the first 10 minutes after you do a
0:58:21bunch of below if you like the futures
0:58:23pretty but everything in my case you
0:58:25know LSD could show me possibilities
0:58:28itself that I would have had access to
0:58:30in such a you know incontrovertible like
0:58:33bald way like wow this I feel like I can
0:58:36see this thing with this clarity that I
0:58:37couldn't before
0:58:38absolute so I mean I don't know when
0:58:40that turns into something that becomes
0:58:41problematic but I mean I think like
0:58:43you're getting at i'm not i'm not in any
0:58:46way trying to be like a what a prude
0:58:48it's just it like I'm really in some
0:58:50ways I'm really glad that I had a safe
0:58:52place to fuck around with those
0:58:55possibilities of self for a small amount
0:58:58of time
0:58:59yeah and i'm glad i didn't keep trying
0:59:02to figure that out too much too often
0:59:04too much
0:59:06well this is for 20 more years about
0:59:08trying to trying to come up with a like
0:59:10a a cool drug policy for the future
0:59:15because I I really do believe that
0:59:18everybody who is curious should try
0:59:22every drug and and should try every drug
0:59:28more than once but there but there is a
0:59:32moment where you are with every single
0:59:36drug chasing the dragon and trying to
0:59:40recapture the feeling that you that you
0:59:43had you know and with with LSD if you
0:59:47took LSD a couple of times a week for a
0:59:50whole summer you would have a whole
0:59:54variety of experiences and it would be
0:59:55mind-expanding and and I think I
0:59:55mind-expanding and and I think I
1:00:00would be an overall net positive for you
1:00:02but at the end of the summer you would
1:00:05already start to feel like oh this trip
1:00:10isn't getting me to that to the place
1:00:13that some of those trips in mid-summer
1:00:16did you know and with cocaine and with
1:00:20mushrooms and with MDMA and heroin even
1:00:26like all certainly crack like you do it
1:00:32the first time and you're like holy
1:00:34mother of god and then the second time
1:00:37it's like you cannot believe you're
1:00:39there again and there and that that
1:00:43climb its it doesn't fall off
1:00:46immediately like that you keep climbing
1:00:48and that's the fifth time you do it it's
1:00:50like that's why the fifth time you do it
1:00:54you have a tendency to think i have
1:00:56found my new band right like that moment
1:00:59that I had really high when i was
1:01:01driving around Anchorage with my friend
1:01:02Peter and I said and we were listening
1:01:05to thick as a brick and I said you know
1:01:08what
1:01:08Jethro tall is going to be my new band
1:01:11i'm going to go down the Jethro Tull fan
1:01:14hole and and that's going to set me
1:01:19apart because there aren't a lot of
1:01:20jethro tull fans that I know that are
1:01:22like deep deep fans and it's going to be
1:01:25me Jethro Tull is gonna be my band Peter
1:01:27was like I don't know that our druids or
1:01:29Wiccans yeah he was like I don't know
1:01:31man are you sure about that and I was
1:01:32like I'm and we were both pretty pretty
1:01:34wasted and i said i'm pretty sure that
1:01:36Jethro at all like speaks to me in this
1:01:38way and then of course the next day I
1:01:41was like oh my god what was I think
1:01:42throat old can't be my band but you know
1:01:45everybody has that experience on the
1:01:47scene of the fifth time they do a drug
1:01:48was just like this is my thing this is
1:01:50my jam who and almost immediately after
1:01:53that you start getting it's diminishing
1:01:55returns
1:01:57so how we could approach drugs as a
1:02:00culture and say like listen it's like
1:02:03room Springer
1:02:04her at a certain point you you leave the
1:02:08village and you go on your drug odyssey
1:02:11because I meet people all the time who
1:02:13say I have never taken a drug and I go
1:02:16all really
1:02:18Jesus man you should try some drugs
1:02:21their astonishing la don't start now
1:02:24that be what a bummer
1:02:25you really should have 20 years ago yeah
1:02:27but even like a 40 year old who's never
1:02:28taken LSD it's like okay I don't think
1:02:31you should take LSD and get on the
1:02:33subway by yourself
1:02:34yeah but if you went out to the beach
1:02:36with I worry about my neuroplasticity
1:02:38John is that right you think you think
1:02:40it would you think it might actually zap
1:02:43you
1:02:43I mean I've known some people that one
1:02:45guy in particular that LSD ruined his
1:02:48life and turned him into a startling
1:02:51schizophrenia like chicken pox like
1:02:53gonna do before your 35 there's gonna be
1:02:55problems that's my guess you think you
1:02:56would come back from a trip and just be
1:02:58like little bit yeah
1:03:00Baron know I don't know I mean I just I
1:03:03just my body and my I would like to
1:03:07think my i'll be an unformed mind I I
1:03:10definitely have more plasticity and more
1:03:12bounce back in general so I mean I don't
1:03:14know I'm not send the transit to decide
1:03:15people that did the joy and really
1:03:17terror of LSD haha
1:03:21listen have you have you not experience
1:03:23the terror of LSD might just correct you
1:03:27terrified you should be terrified at the
1:03:29Oscars or disney world it's really fun
1:03:31I do fear that the the the idea because
1:03:34I always held out the possibility like
1:03:36okay I understand that psychedelics are
1:03:38not strictly an addictive drug and when
1:03:43I am 50 years old maybe I'll want to go
1:03:45out to then you know the northern coast
1:03:49and stand on a windswept rock and take
1:03:51some LSD got to connect harbor and see
1:03:54holiday it's yeah well no no just go out
1:03:57and like watch the whales ok but then I
1:04:00then I recall those times when I would
1:04:04be sitting when I would be sitting on
1:04:07the quad of my college naked wrapped in
1:04:11a blanket and trying everything i could
1:04:16to keep the complete
1:04:18panic oh my god oh I don't miss that and
1:04:21saying like do not panic this is not you
1:04:25know this will not last forever dude
1:04:26please do not lose your last toehold
1:04:29with reality and then imagine myself now
1:04:32with with as you're describing like my
1:04:35complete lack of plasticity or her now
1:04:38and just feeling with student recovery
1:04:40on that would be today
1:04:41nonono oh yeah i just i think of like ah
1:04:47like a windham hill album on repeat that
1:04:50I somehow couldn't get to turn off and
1:04:53having one thought in my head which is
1:04:54that this is the only thought in my head
1:04:56and this may be the only thought in my
1:04:58head that I ever have it and and my
1:05:00brain has stopped working
1:05:02you know I used to really hate to really
1:05:04be into the fact that i could think and
1:05:06and and then I would sit there and I
1:05:08think this is the last time I'm ever
1:05:09going to think i'm gonna take forever
1:05:10and the thought that I'm thinking is
1:05:12that this is the last time I'm ever
1:05:13going to think i'm gonna take forever
1:05:14haha nicee meanwhile like windham hill
1:05:18violin music is playing just thinking
1:05:20there's absolutely there's no proof in
1:05:22the entire universe to show me that this
1:05:25will never be any different
1:05:26I'm going to lose my mind right now
1:05:29sitting here and there's not a damn
1:05:31thing I can do about it
1:05:32I would I was hitchhiking and ended up
1:05:35in Durango Colorado at one time and got
1:05:39into a pickup truck with a guy and he
1:05:41was like wanna go to a party and I was
1:05:44like absolutely and he said one some
1:05:46acid and I said absolutely and we show
1:05:51up at this party and it's like it's like
1:05:53a on the surface of its a cool scene
1:05:55right it's like a like a country kind of
1:05:58house on some land and there's a bunch
1:06:01of cool cool cats there and and pretty
1:06:05girls and in slough r print dresses and
1:06:07dogs lolling around on the porch
1:06:11and I kind of walk into this party and
1:06:13the acid starts coming on and I looked
1:06:18and everybody kind of looks at me and
1:06:20there is no welcome
1:06:22no one's welcome in I'm like hey hi how
1:06:26are you i'm just i just got a ride with
1:06:29this guy and now I'm here and you know
1:06:32huh young a young person just like you
1:06:34guys and everybody was like and so now
1:06:41I'm out in the woods in this at this
1:06:44house party and I'm coming on some kind
1:06:50of strychnine t acid and no one is
1:06:54friendly like nerves have been lightly
1:06:58toasted yeah and i felt myself on it
1:07:02right now I felt myself on the edge of
1:07:04falling off this precipice of like this
1:07:08is not gonna go well this is not going
1:07:10to be fun and I when I sat on the i sat
1:07:14in a chair on the porch and I'm betting
1:07:15this dog I'm like dog
1:07:17you and me we're gonna get through this
1:07:19together and the dog just walks off
1:07:21wonderfully alright what it really alone
1:07:27net up thanks a lot buddy and I
1:07:29basically just meant like walking in the
1:07:31woods and eventually found another house
1:07:34party and ended up sitting on the living
1:07:36room floor i'm pretty sure stacking
1:07:40paper clips for a couple of hours and
1:07:44then the cops came to the party and
1:07:47busted the party and i was so glad to
1:07:49see them like so thrilled that the cops
1:07:53were there because i felt like the cops
1:07:55and I had a long-term understanding with
1:07:58one another it would be like a dog
1:08:00yeah it's like right the cops i mean at
1:08:02least i can talk to the cops not sure
1:08:04you know what you can do but they're
1:08:05dependable they're dependable and you
1:08:07can say like hey man how's it going out
1:08:08there a lot of parties tonight and
1:08:10they're just like looking over your
1:08:11shoulder trying to figure out who's in
1:08:13his place is like a i'll talk to you
1:08:14guys I mean you know i'm not from here
1:08:17wanna see my ID
1:08:19and look at the paper clips
1:08:22ya wanna see what I've been wanting to
1:08:23see what I've been doing they're over
1:08:25here that I can I had to do it kinda out
1:08:28of the way because a lot of traffic
1:08:29through this party but like the whole
1:08:32night long just like staving off panic
1:08:34and and particularly at the beginning
1:08:35with things like that knowing that like
1:08:37okay this is an eight-hour thing now for
1:08:39the next eight hours i'm going to just
1:08:41be chain smoking camel filters stacking
1:08:43paper clips and trying to trying to talk
1:08:47to any receptive pet and just like
1:08:52hoping that the cops come by are hoping
1:08:54that somebody interesting like comes
1:08:55around and not it was an uncool seen I
1:08:58still reflect on that somehow did you
1:09:00get back to where you started out he had
1:09:03to get a ride from a stranger with
1:09:04strange as strange as in a strange land
1:09:06how did you get back to where you were
1:09:08we started out well this was the thing
1:09:10about me at that time there was no back
1:09:13i ended up coming down off of the acid
1:09:18and i was at someplace and ice went to
1:09:21sleep on the couch and I woke up in the
1:09:23morning and that's where i was i mean i
1:09:26had my little bag of of my little pack
1:09:29of underwear and socks and i woke up at
1:09:33this new house with these new kind of
1:09:35unfriendly people and you know charmed
1:09:40my way into a cup of coffee and then I
1:09:42started off walking down the road just
1:09:47like just like Bruce Banner at the end
1:09:49of every episode of the incredible hulk
1:09:51really now you can't find your slippers
1:09:53haha
1:09:58[Music]