The Incomparable

339: Burned Like Books


00:00:00   comfortable number 349 februari 2017 [TS]

00:00:11   welcome back everybody to be [TS]

00:00:12   uncomfortable i'm your host Jason still [TS]

00:00:13   and this episode is going to be about [TS]

00:00:15   two books you may have been assigned in [TS]

00:00:20   school maybe maybe not [TS]

00:00:22   and they have become more interesting [TS]

00:00:26   and relevant lately and I believe in [TS]

00:00:28   fact copies of one are reportedly sold [TS]

00:00:30   out in many bookstores whatever [TS]

00:00:33   bookstore still remain in the United [TS]

00:00:34   States so we're going to talk about [TS]

00:00:36   george orwell's 1984 and Ray Bradbury's [TS]

00:00:39   Fahrenheit 451 two things you know the [TS]

00:00:43   theme here of course is works with [TS]

00:00:44   numbers in them that's great [TS]

00:00:46   clearly so join me i mentioned reading [TS]

00:00:49   them in school who better to have [TS]

00:00:51   discussed these commonly assigned works [TS]

00:00:54   then the hook very host of sophomore lit [TS]

00:00:57   John McCoy hello hello I want you know I [TS]

00:01:00   don't even own a parlor wall [TS]

00:01:01   alright well you know ignorance is [TS]

00:01:03   strength freedom is slavery Scott [TS]

00:01:06   mcnulty that's double plus good to be [TS]

00:01:08   here Jason David jail or we have always [TS]

00:01:12   been at war with Eastasia that this is [TS]

00:01:14   true I i guess a it was kind of grim in [TS]

00:01:17   high school because we had our english [TS]

00:01:19   class in room 101 ouch that's brutal and [TS]

00:01:21   Erica and sign is here you might as well [TS]

00:01:24   jump [TS]

00:01:25   wait a second now that haha i think i [TS]

00:01:30   will just go ahead and johanna down the [TS]

00:01:32   memory hole [TS]

00:01:34   no don'tdon't you got memory hole after [TS]

00:01:37   reading these books Jason you felt like [TS]

00:01:39   you didn't need to just jump down the [TS]

00:01:40   memory hole well yeah man we are on fire [TS]

00:01:43   tonight [TS]

00:01:43   hmm [TS]

00:01:45   no it's uh let's erase that and make [TS]

00:01:48   sure it has never happened [TS]

00:01:50   yeah yeah that was undergoing that [TS]

00:01:53   wasn't good good so let's start with [TS]

00:01:56   fahrenheit 451 by Ray Bradbury why don't [TS]

00:01:59   we start there before we move on to or [TS]

00:02:02   well these were both published a 44-41 [TS]

00:02:05   published in nineteen fifty three ninety [TS]

00:02:06   four was published in 1949 so both [TS]

00:02:09   post-war fairly quickly post-war [TS]

00:02:12   dystopian visions often assigned in [TS]

00:02:17   school like I said along with the may be [TS]

00:02:19   brave new world you can tune him to like [TS]

00:02:22   an hour and a half of John and I talking [TS]

00:02:24   about brave new world a sophomore lid we [TS]

00:02:27   covered that one who is a weird one [TS]

00:02:29   um about regrets a lot of credit mean [TS]

00:02:32   he's written so many different kinds of [TS]

00:02:35   works and he always gets credit for [TS]

00:02:36   being very kind of lyrical writer [TS]

00:02:38   beautiful writer it is prose style is is [TS]

00:02:42   remarkable and i was struck I read [TS]

00:02:45   fahrenheit 451 at some point but I feel [TS]

00:02:47   like I probably retained none of it so [TS]

00:02:51   revisiting it now was kind of fun but I [TS]

00:02:53   was also struck by the fact that it was [TS]

00:02:55   not it was not at all what I expected [TS]

00:02:59   and although i did at several points [TS]

00:03:01   stop and appreciate how how much effort [TS]

00:03:05   was being put into the into the [TS]

00:03:07   pro-style when it would where everybody [TS]

00:03:09   else is kind of impressions with her of [TS]

00:03:11   fahrenheit 451 John did you read this [TS]

00:03:13   first live with this [TS]

00:03:14   yes this was actually I think maybe my [TS]

00:03:16   third or fourth episode so I read this [TS]

00:03:19   about a year ago I I have to say I'm a [TS]

00:03:22   fan of bradbery's pro-style but this [TS]

00:03:24   this seems like kind of early days to me [TS]

00:03:27   like he's he's finding his way along [TS]

00:03:30   this he famously wrote this book at [TS]

00:03:33   night on a typewriter in a college [TS]

00:03:37   university because he didn't have a [TS]

00:03:40   typewriter of his own and it really does [TS]

00:03:43   feel kind of like a guy out to prove [TS]

00:03:46   himself to me and I think there's a lot [TS]

00:03:48   of really beautiful stuff in here [TS]

00:03:49   there's a lot of stuff in here that also [TS]

00:03:51   seems to me like he's approaching with a [TS]

00:03:54   bit of a chip on his shoulder because [TS]

00:03:57   he likes to kind of yeah i'll get into [TS]

00:04:00   this later but Bradbury strikes me as [TS]

00:04:03   someone who wants to kind of show off a [TS]

00:04:04   little bit of what he knows you know by [TS]

00:04:07   pulling out [TS]

00:04:08   cicero and pulling out matthew arnold [TS]

00:04:11   and stuff i think but i but I i like it [TS]

00:04:13   i thought that there were passages that [TS]

00:04:16   were just beautiful and strange III this [TS]

00:04:20   time reading through i really loved the [TS]

00:04:23   depiction of the Hound which doesn't [TS]

00:04:26   really pay off in in any major way in [TS]

00:04:29   just how does this ever-present threat [TS]

00:04:32   but just the idea this crazy biomorphic [TS]

00:04:36   robot that makes no sense at all [TS]

00:04:40   I i like that i like it only one [TS]

00:04:41   Bradbury doesn't even try to make sense [TS]

00:04:43   got worried about you [TS]

00:04:45   well I read this book many years ago and [TS]

00:04:49   of course remember nothing about it now [TS]

00:04:51   especially if i had read it last year I [TS]

00:04:54   wouldn't remember anything about it [TS]

00:04:55   let's be honest except of course the [TS]

00:04:58   whole lido with a bird books he's a [TS]

00:05:00   firebender and they burn books that i [TS]

00:05:02   remembered so I didn't remember that it [TS]

00:05:04   was broken up into three sections i [TS]

00:05:06   didn't i didn't remember the Hound [TS]

00:05:08   though that would stick out in my mind [TS]

00:05:10   as well but i really like it I mean I [TS]

00:05:13   thought that it was striking you know [TS]

00:05:17   the chat the part that struck me the [TS]

00:05:19   most is when what's-his-name on tog [TS]

00:05:22   explains or or his boss explains baby [TS]

00:05:27   explains to to Montague why they burn [TS]

00:05:31   the books and you know it wasn't a law [TS]

00:05:33   it was just that you know people we're [TS]

00:05:36   just looking for faster entertainment [TS]

00:05:39   and filling up their minds with with [TS]

00:05:41   nonsense and that just got me to [TS]

00:05:43   thinking about Twitter and then I got [TS]

00:05:45   sad [TS]

00:05:46   stop reading and you can burn Twitter [TS]

00:05:49   unfortunately can't do that i've i've [TS]

00:05:51   tried many times to set your computer on [TS]

00:05:54   fire [TS]

00:05:55   that's right it's not that right erica [TS]

00:05:57   was your experience with fahrenheit 451 [TS]

00:05:59   I had never read either one of these [TS]

00:06:01   books before actually I didn't have to [TS]

00:06:03   read them in school and I thought maybe [TS]

00:06:06   I tried reading Fahrenheit 451 [TS]

00:06:08   previously and [TS]

00:06:10   didn't get through it because I just [TS]

00:06:11   didn't like it but if that's the case [TS]

00:06:13   then I really forgot everything about it [TS]

00:06:15   because I didn't remember anything [TS]

00:06:18   reading this I mean the only thing I [TS]

00:06:20   knew was the look you know 451 in [TS]

00:06:22   burning books like that was that was it [TS]

00:06:24   I didn't even know the fireman thing so [TS]

00:06:26   that was that was all new to me and I i [TS]

00:06:29   agree with John that the the pros is is [TS]

00:06:33   beautiful but honestly book really kind [TS]

00:06:37   of angered me because it very much seem [TS]

00:06:40   like oh he's coming from a place where [TS]

00:06:43   oh you know people people who like pop [TS]

00:06:46   culture and people who like you know a [TS]

00:06:48   literature but looks you know they're [TS]

00:06:50   going to be the downfall of us all like [TS]

00:06:53   I'm like that's rich coming from a guy [TS]

00:06:54   who's known for science fiction which I [TS]

00:06:56   mean my favorite genre in the world but [TS]

00:06:59   has been you know throughout history [TS]

00:07:00   kind of looked and looked down upon [TS]

00:07:02   so I was just like where do you get off [TS]

00:07:05   dude and that sort of colored the entire [TS]

00:07:07   experience for me [TS]

00:07:08   well I know speed slight spoiler here [TS]

00:07:10   for my view of it I had a very similar [TS]

00:07:12   reaction to yours Erica idea [TS]

00:07:15   David what are your initial sort of [TS]

00:07:18   fahrenheit 451 reactions [TS]

00:07:20   yeah that this was another one that we [TS]

00:07:22   had you know that hundreds of copies [TS]

00:07:25   sitting around in high school and you'd [TS]

00:07:26   see them from the various English [TS]

00:07:28   classes because we had the big open [TS]

00:07:30   space classrooms with like three classes [TS]

00:07:33   once it was like you tons of storage and [TS]

00:07:35   it was one that i wanted to read and and [TS]

00:07:37   our english classes never read them [TS]

00:07:39   it was really weird i never got to read [TS]

00:07:41   either one of these in high school [TS]

00:07:42   except by choice and so I did I think I [TS]

00:07:45   did them senior year just for kicks and [TS]

00:07:48   coming back to it now I i remember the [TS]

00:07:52   time I had read a lot of Bradbury and [TS]

00:07:55   this really stood out as very different [TS]

00:08:00   from a lot of what he was writing at the [TS]

00:08:02   time and but it's the only thing of [TS]

00:08:05   those early like you know early fifties [TS]

00:08:08   Bradbury that that's stuck in my head [TS]

00:08:10   and I don't know why cause I haven't [TS]

00:08:11   come back to the other Bradbury which [TS]

00:08:13   that might be part of it to the only [TS]

00:08:15   Bradbury I had to read in school was a [TS]

00:08:16   Martian Chronicles so [TS]

00:08:18   oh nice not quite the same thing and I [TS]

00:08:20   really enjoyed that [TS]

00:08:22   that was a long time ago the only one [TS]

00:08:24   that we got for street with something [TS]

00:08:26   wicked this way comes partly because [TS]

00:08:28   they just wanted to show us the movie [TS]

00:08:30   movie [TS]

00:08:30   yeah there's a lot of what we got movies [TS]

00:08:33   but yeah I i really had this made an [TS]

00:08:38   impression on me twenties so many years [TS]

00:08:41   ago and so I had forgotten a lot of it [TS]

00:08:45   but there were bits and pieces and [TS]

00:08:47   images that as soon as i got them i [TS]

00:08:49   could be no almost recite the next page [TS]

00:08:52   with it which was kind of interesting [TS]

00:08:53   yeah I my memory of this is is like I [TS]

00:08:56   said zero i know i read it and and I [TS]

00:08:59   remember this is what it's like for [TS]

00:09:00   Scott all the time I realize it's not [TS]

00:09:03   always like that for me but condition [TS]

00:09:05   please [TS]

00:09:06   yes I i know i I'm I'm walk i walked a [TS]

00:09:08   mile i read a book in your shoes I got [TS]

00:09:10   no that's why i usually comfortable put [TS]

00:09:13   on choose to read a book but in this [TS]

00:09:15   case I did and a yeah i think the the [TS]

00:09:19   opening is especially lyrical and I had [TS]

00:09:22   that moment you know it was a two-stage [TS]

00:09:24   thing with the first stages so here is a [TS]

00:09:25   writer who is going to show off right i [TS]

00:09:27   mean i guess you could see it and then I [TS]

00:09:29   was like he's pretty good at it right [TS]

00:09:30   now is the next step was like like this [TS]

00:09:32   the way that this book starts it feels [TS]

00:09:35   very much like I'm just gonna I'm gonna [TS]

00:09:37   impress you with my prose a little bit [TS]

00:09:39   and he does yeah but and there are [TS]

00:09:41   moments throughout that I i would look [TS]

00:09:44   at it and be like okay you know I see [TS]

00:09:46   his skill at this but I was struck by [TS]

00:09:50   the same thing erica was and if you look [TS]

00:09:53   at Bradbury statements about Fahrenheit [TS]

00:09:56   this is really interesting so we lumped [TS]

00:09:57   the this these two books together and [TS]

00:10:01   there is this mid-twentieth-century [TS]

00:10:02   books that are against totalitarianism [TS]

00:10:06   and censorship and other other kind of [TS]

00:10:10   similarly terrible things and they get [TS]

00:10:13   lumped together and i find it funny [TS]

00:10:15   because having read fahrenheit 451 and [TS]

00:10:17   then seeing that bread for himself [TS]

00:10:18   admits this I feel like they kind of [TS]

00:10:21   don't fit because fahrenheit 451 to me [TS]

00:10:24   feels very much like it's about it's a [TS]

00:10:26   satire about how if people don't read [TS]

00:10:30   the world will be crappy not that [TS]

00:10:34   totalitarian [TS]

00:10:35   governments will come and keep people [TS]

00:10:37   from reading in order to have them beam [TS]

00:10:40   you know how in order to exert their [TS]

00:10:42   power over them here it's very much more [TS]

00:10:44   like a kind of kind of elitist a [TS]

00:10:48   snobbish turning you know it's an attack [TS]

00:10:52   on television and popular culture in [TS]

00:10:54   general and people don't read like they [TS]

00:10:56   used to and leads the the society in [TS]

00:10:59   fahrenheit 451 into these terrible [TS]

00:11:00   places it's almost like the you know the [TS]

00:11:03   the the censorship is a just comes out [TS]

00:11:07   of the fact that nobody's reading [TS]

00:11:08   anymore it's not because of the state [TS]

00:11:11   and so I was kind of taken aback by that [TS]

00:11:13   because that was not what i was [TS]

00:11:14   expecting and I guess I also didn't [TS]

00:11:17   particularly appreciate that message the [TS]

00:11:19   underlying conflict me that's weird [TS]

00:11:22   about this book is a Bradbury is warning [TS]

00:11:25   against political correctness raisuli in [TS]

00:11:29   a time before they had that language [TS]

00:11:32   because he says the danger that people [TS]

00:11:34   saw in books was that they were [TS]

00:11:37   contradictory that they confuse people [TS]

00:11:39   you know they hurt people's feelings [TS]

00:11:41   yep and the troubles people felt [TS]

00:11:43   marginalized people felt excluded by [TS]

00:11:45   great works of literature there weren't [TS]

00:11:48   written to them or that said truths that [TS]

00:11:50   they didn't agree with so culture had to [TS]

00:11:52   be dumbed down and made polite and made [TS]

00:11:55   good for everybody and it's kinda spooky [TS]

00:11:58   when you have to see how that's actually [TS]

00:12:00   played out in the actual arena of how [TS]

00:12:03   political correctness gets used as a as [TS]

00:12:05   a casual [TS]

00:12:06   the other thing I would say is that it's [TS]

00:12:08   a very romantic book about the power of [TS]

00:12:11   words and it strikes strikes me that [TS]

00:12:15   that comes from the place that bribery [TS]

00:12:18   is coming from which is he's an [TS]

00:12:19   autodidact he's a guy who never went to [TS]

00:12:23   college but he wanted to show the world [TS]

00:12:25   he was an educated person and the the [TS]

00:12:29   thing that I think is so funny is the [TS]

00:12:31   scene where he starts reading poetry to [TS]

00:12:34   his wife milled at Mildred and her [TS]

00:12:37   friends to try and show them what has [TS]

00:12:39   been lost the unplug their screen right [TS]

00:12:41   right and the poem he chooses is matthew [TS]

00:12:44   arnold Dover Beach now this is the [TS]

00:12:47   this is I'm a great fan of people just [TS]

00:12:50   reading literature and and you know [TS]

00:12:53   to hell with whether you know where it [TS]

00:12:54   comes from go ahead and read it and see [TS]

00:12:56   if you can connect with it but matthew [TS]

00:12:57   arnold is not something you just pick up [TS]

00:12:59   and have got a reaction to you know it's [TS]

00:13:03   like I keep that in my wallet come on [TS]

00:13:07   and if you've never experienced anything [TS]

00:13:08   remotely like that before why would [TS]

00:13:10   those words in that order make you [TS]

00:13:12   suddenly break down and cry i just did [TS]

00:13:14   not buy head for a second yet maybe if [TS]

00:13:17   there if there were a poem that would [TS]

00:13:19   make me break down and cry it is not [TS]

00:13:20   differ beach [TS]

00:13:22   no you're right and your age on it made [TS]

00:13:24   me feel icky to when I got to that point [TS]

00:13:25   because I mean basically what he says [TS]

00:13:27   and this may even be in there [TS]

00:13:28   specifically I can't I don't have a [TS]

00:13:30   something to quote here directly but [TS]

00:13:32   it's basically like well you know what [TS]

00:13:34   the problem was that you'd write a book [TS]

00:13:35   and the women would complain or you [TS]

00:13:37   write a book and the Negroes would [TS]

00:13:38   complain and so they had to make these [TS]

00:13:40   dumb books that nobody complained about [TS]

00:13:41   in that ruined everything i'm like yeah [TS]

00:13:43   I that is not a good [TS]

00:13:45   no no no I mean if it's just for being a [TS]

00:13:49   guy who is thinks he's so smart [TS]

00:13:51   the the idea that that the solution to [TS]

00:13:53   that is to write books that are more and [TS]

00:13:56   more you know bland is ridiculous I mean [TS]

00:14:00   I think it's become clear in this day [TS]

00:14:02   and age of the the answer to that is if [TS]

00:14:05   more books by all kinds of different [TS]

00:14:07   people it be [TS]

00:14:08   I love the idea why i hate i'm using [TS]

00:14:11   loving quotes that the idea that his his [TS]

00:14:14   thought is that yes it's it's the you [TS]

00:14:15   know it's the white men that should be [TS]

00:14:17   producing all of these books and because [TS]

00:14:20   of that we need to think about the [TS]

00:14:22   minorities that was that just kept [TS]

00:14:24   coming up over and over again we need to [TS]

00:14:25   think about it already is right and give [TS]

00:14:27   basically he's saying we need to give [TS]

00:14:30   them things that are not going to upset [TS]

00:14:32   them [TS]

00:14:33   there's never any thought that all [TS]

00:14:35   perhaps these quote-unquote minorities I [TS]

00:14:37   mean women not exactly minority could be [TS]

00:14:40   producing content for themselves [TS]

00:14:42   producing things from their own point of [TS]

00:14:44   view that's that's just not something [TS]

00:14:46   that ever enters into his head as a [TS]

00:14:48   narrator of this book even though the [TS]

00:14:50   walls and by the way these are both [TS]

00:14:52   books with a with the feature [TS]

00:14:54   essentially television large television [TS]

00:14:58   as part of the premise with [TS]

00:15:00   which is kind of fun in fahrenheit 451 [TS]

00:15:02   there are just walls that our television [TS]

00:15:05   screens and a guy Montag's wife is is a [TS]

00:15:08   getting on him about how she wants the [TS]

00:15:10   fourth wall to be a screen to so they'll [TS]

00:15:12   be it's kind of like virtual reality [TS]

00:15:14   that basically will be inside a box of [TS]

00:15:17   television and so the characters on the [TS]

00:15:19   shows are watching will be all around [TS]

00:15:20   them and so as a as a satire of you know [TS]

00:15:26   almost like reality TV and all that I I [TS]

00:15:29   can see it i'm not sure if I'm like [TS]

00:15:31   totally behind it but i was i was struck [TS]

00:15:33   by the fact that it what it's not it is [TS]

00:15:36   it's politics are very different from [TS]

00:15:38   something like 1984 it's politics are [TS]

00:15:41   yes a celebration of writing and [TS]

00:15:43   decrying about of a kind of a coarsening [TS]

00:15:46   culture that does not appreciate great [TS]

00:15:48   art which is not at all the same kind of [TS]

00:15:52   story is something that you get in 94 or [TS]

00:15:54   something like brave new world and it's [TS]

00:15:56   it's also bad government overreach to I [TS]

00:15:59   mean this he was writing this after the [TS]

00:16:01   whole house of unemployed american path [TS]

00:16:04   house on American Activities Committee [TS]

00:16:06   was going on and you know this was kind [TS]

00:16:11   of a reaction to that the the [TS]

00:16:12   anti-intellectualism of that and so so [TS]

00:16:16   yeah it's it's about the power of words [TS]

00:16:19   where 1984 a lot of your other dystopian [TS]

00:16:22   novels are about the crushing power of [TS]

00:16:26   words maybe or the the destruction of [TS]

00:16:28   the words whereas this is literally [TS]

00:16:30   destroying the books but the words will [TS]

00:16:33   save you on in both emotions these books [TS]

00:16:35   there are there are no illicit materials [TS]

00:16:38   that are found in and and red and that [TS]

00:16:41   you know there are there are acts of [TS]

00:16:42   rebellion and things like that they do [TS]

00:16:44   have they do definitely have things in [TS]

00:16:45   common and of course in this case in [TS]

00:16:49   both books actually it's a [TS]

00:16:50   representative it's a functionary in [TS]

00:16:52   this totalitarian society who it becomes [TS]

00:16:55   disaffected and partakes of the band [TS]

00:16:58   material i mean they do have things in [TS]

00:17:00   common even though they're coming from [TS]

00:17:01   pretty different sorts of places i think [TS]

00:17:04   Bradbury is still hopeful where Orwell [TS]

00:17:07   is absolutely not no it's debatable [TS]

00:17:10   there might be a little help there but [TS]

00:17:11   we'll get we'll get to that the other [TS]

00:17:13   thing that's funny about this book for [TS]

00:17:14   me and it struck me reading through both [TS]

00:17:17   times is there's there's a lot of stuff [TS]

00:17:19   that's just kind of tacked on a because [TS]

00:17:23   Bradbury I don't think kind of could [TS]

00:17:25   figure out what he wanted to do the [TS]

00:17:28   whole into this book is if focuses on [TS]

00:17:30   the fact that there's been rumors of war [TS]

00:17:33   going on throughout the entire book they [TS]

00:17:35   they just keep handing a war happening [TS]

00:17:37   war happening and then suddenly the city [TS]

00:17:39   that he's in has just blown up and [TS]

00:17:41   they're like oh well we guess we better [TS]

00:17:43   go back and rebuild everything of a kind [TS]

00:17:45   of trash back into the civilian it's [TS]

00:17:47   sort of like where did that come from [TS]

00:17:50   if the end is really weird like it [TS]

00:17:52   becomes a chase scene sort of and then [TS]

00:17:56   there's the he finds the like the hobo [TS]

00:17:58   camp of college professors and then the [TS]

00:18:02   city gets nuked and the end [TS]

00:18:05   yeah it's like that's the happy ending [TS]

00:18:08   yeah the the happy ending is the fact [TS]

00:18:09   that civilization has just been doomed [TS]

00:18:11   and now we can rebuild it in and not [TS]

00:18:15   internet in a new way in the old way [TS]

00:18:17   that's right well the stupid people are [TS]

00:18:19   in the city and there's I so that's it [TS]

00:18:22   burned like books exactly as they should [TS]

00:18:25   be and you know Orwell was writing a [TS]

00:18:28   straight novel where is Bradbury's [TS]

00:18:30   reading pulp stories in the fellas and [TS]

00:18:32   then threading them together and that's [TS]

00:18:35   part of why this is in parts and part of [TS]

00:18:37   why it's a little disjointed and put [TS]

00:18:39   away just start suddenly becomes a chase [TS]

00:18:41   and then suddenly ends it's like oh I [TS]

00:18:43   hit I hit my number where the editor [TS]

00:18:45   said it was good and that's it and he [TS]

00:18:47   just kind of left to reach my workout [TS]

00:18:48   i'm just thinking of the parallels now [TS]

00:18:50   which I didn't really think before [TS]

00:18:51   because in addition to him being a [TS]

00:18:53   functionary you've got his his a boss [TS]

00:18:55   who basically kind of like lets him in [TS]

00:18:58   on the secrets and says it's okay and [TS]

00:19:00   you know in this case Montague boss says [TS]

00:19:03   you know everything happens every [TS]

00:19:04   fireman you just bring the book back you [TS]

00:19:06   get 24 hours it's not a big deal you [TS]

00:19:09   know we'll we'll make it work and that [TS]

00:19:10   that's similar to a point to what [TS]

00:19:13   happens in 1984 the idea that there i [TS]

00:19:16   mean it is a clever like elevator pitch [TS]

00:19:20   which is in the future there are firemen [TS]

00:19:22   but they start fire [TS]

00:19:24   that's right that's right that's that's [TS]

00:19:26   clever and he's and he's troubled and [TS]

00:19:28   the Hound is an interesting character [TS]

00:19:29   there's a lot of there's a lot of [TS]

00:19:30   interesting stuff here the big screens [TS]

00:19:32   and the the the the people who are [TS]

00:19:34   obsessed with with television [TS]

00:19:37   essentially although they're in Eric I'm [TS]

00:19:39   sure that you have similar feelings to [TS]

00:19:41   me it's like it is a very gendered [TS]

00:19:43   portrayal it is [TS]

00:19:44   oh the women with their soap operas are [TS]

00:19:46   nattering on and they're so annoying and [TS]

00:19:48   it's it you know it's not it's it's it's [TS]

00:19:51   the women who are seen as as kind of [TS]

00:19:53   throwing away their time on the on their [TS]

00:19:55   on their stories [TS]

00:19:56   yeah every single woman in the entire [TS]

00:19:58   story is is that basically and then the [TS]

00:20:02   men are either the firemen or the old [TS]

00:20:05   guy who invents this magical machine and [TS]

00:20:08   and loves books or a whole bunch of a [TS]

00:20:10   hobo college professors I don't remember [TS]

00:20:12   any women being in that group yeah other [TS]

00:20:14   than Clarice is the only exception right [TS]

00:20:16   who who is the young woman who you talk [TS]

00:20:19   to him in both novels though it's a [TS]

00:20:21   woman who's going to save you know the [TS]

00:20:23   or or at least lift the spirits of the [TS]

00:20:26   main character Clarice and Julia are [TS]

00:20:28   parallel rhesus is really i mean i hate [TS]

00:20:30   to use the word you know Matt Pixie [TS]

00:20:33   dream girl but please is ambiguous [TS]

00:20:34   exactly she asleep yeah prototype which [TS]

00:20:38   is why I didn't quit her with women [TS]

00:20:40   because she's a girl for sure Julia [TS]

00:20:42   kinda is too will get there but I mean [TS]

00:20:44   they're both kinda like that but yeah I [TS]

00:20:45   mean they're not Katniss or anything if [TS]

00:20:47   you see the movie day is Truffaut makes [TS]

00:20:51   a couple of really good choices and one [TS]

00:20:53   of them is he makes Clarice like 20 in [TS]

00:20:56   her twenties she's a she's a [TS]

00:20:58   schoolteacher and so that takes away a [TS]

00:21:00   lot of kind of goofiness of Montag's [TS]

00:21:03   infatuation with this teen girl [TS]

00:21:05   the other thing that did Truffaut does [TS]

00:21:08   is at the end of the book when montage [TS]

00:21:11   makes it to the society of people who [TS]

00:21:14   memorized the books the people they're [TS]

00:21:16   actually sit there and memorize the [TS]

00:21:18   books there's a wonderful sequence of [TS]

00:21:20   the end of the movie where you see these [TS]

00:21:21   people repeating the words of great [TS]

00:21:23   literature out loud and they're trying [TS]

00:21:25   to commit this to memory and it-it-it [TS]

00:21:28   seen as an arduous and a very precarious [TS]

00:21:30   task you can you feel like oh any second [TS]

00:21:33   they're going to make a mistake [TS]

00:21:35   you know Hamlet is going to suddenly [TS]

00:21:36   become hamblett or something and it but [TS]

00:21:40   but in the book it's all kind of like [TS]

00:21:42   waved away like they say we've we've [TS]

00:21:44   discovered a magical way to make people [TS]

00:21:46   memorize books [TS]

00:21:47   yeah I guess he's trying to get to like [TS]

00:21:49   all tradition and connect that to books [TS]

00:21:51   and say that this is all part of this [TS]

00:21:53   long chain in human society but you know [TS]

00:21:55   the irony here is if you go back to [TS]

00:21:57   ancient sources the ancient Greeks were [TS]

00:22:00   very distrustful of people starting to [TS]

00:22:02   learn to write because they said now [TS]

00:22:04   you're gonna lose your memory and that's [TS]

00:22:06   terrible you know we're going like the [TS]

00:22:07   idea of people writing down Homer [TS]

00:22:09   because before then people memorize [TS]

00:22:11   Homer I am kinda down on this but there [TS]

00:22:13   are some moments in here that are pretty [TS]

00:22:15   spectacular and the one that really [TS]

00:22:16   worked for me is mon togs wife's [TS]

00:22:19   attempted suicide because it's told so [TS]

00:22:23   matter-of-factly and and and she just so [TS]

00:22:27   she swallowed all the pills again and he [TS]

00:22:29   called someone and they basically said [TS]

00:22:30   like plumbers to the house to pump her [TS]

00:22:34   stomach and layer down she doesn't get [TS]

00:22:36   taken away and then the next day she [TS]

00:22:38   doesn't even remember or think about it [TS]

00:22:40   and you get the sense that this is [TS]

00:22:42   something that she just she does and I [TS]

00:22:44   what I like about that is not only is it [TS]

00:22:45   super creepy but there's this [TS]

00:22:47   undercurrent that like these people are [TS]

00:22:49   miserable but won't let themselves [TS]

00:22:51   believe they're miserable and their [TS]

00:22:53   society is very helpful in not letting [TS]

00:22:55   them die so they're just sort of stuck [TS]

00:22:57   forever in this [TS]

00:22:58   yeah like the plumber guys are like you [TS]

00:23:00   know we've got three more calls like [TS]

00:23:01   this we gotta go buddy it's not just her [TS]

00:23:03   and then when he says what happens if [TS]

00:23:05   she doesn't get any better and he's [TS]

00:23:07   there i will just call us again will [TS]

00:23:08   show up again [TS]

00:23:09   yeah yeah so weird thats that really [TS]

00:23:12   stuck with me that was a that was a a [TS]

00:23:14   nice creepy moment of light because you [TS]

00:23:16   know on the surface it is this sort of [TS]

00:23:18   Sonny gave Sonny scene and then but [TS]

00:23:22   beneath the surface it's just like oh [TS]

00:23:23   yeah she tried to kill herself again [TS]

00:23:26   will you know just call the guys and [TS]

00:23:27   we'll fix it up until next time to his [TS]

00:23:30   credit that was that was one of the [TS]

00:23:31   moments that I enjoyed the most pros [TS]

00:23:34   wise because that is one of the first [TS]

00:23:36   times that we experience the jets flying [TS]

00:23:37   overhead as well right you know he [TS]

00:23:39   realizes when his wife is done at the [TS]

00:23:41   same time like you know the sky is split [TS]

00:23:43   by this the scream of a jacket or [TS]

00:23:45   whatever it is and [TS]

00:23:46   it was it was it was a beautiful moment [TS]

00:23:48   in a lot of ways and then and then [TS]

00:23:50   immediately went right back to being [TS]

00:23:52   completely matter of fact and it's just [TS]

00:23:54   these guys with their weird snake to to [TS]

00:23:56   pump her stomach [TS]

00:23:57   the thing I like the best was when favor [TS]

00:23:59   spent like three pages explaining to [TS]

00:24:02   Montague this exciting little earpiece [TS]

00:24:04   he was going to give him because you [TS]

00:24:06   because Montague was so blown away by [TS]

00:24:09   the idea that there was this radio [TS]

00:24:11   receiver that was going to stick into [TS]

00:24:12   his ear and he lives in a world where [TS]

00:24:14   they have freaking the hounds running [TS]

00:24:16   around the place but this is what blows [TS]

00:24:19   him away [TS]

00:24:20   yeah it's weird it's a weird book there [TS]

00:24:22   there there are things that i like but [TS]

00:24:24   um well it's not sort of what i was [TS]

00:24:26   expecting and I i don't think i would [TS]

00:24:29   say that I i like the name on tagged [TS]

00:24:31   isn't even like he's barely a character [TS]

00:24:33   I mean we did we get his inner life but [TS]

00:24:36   it didn't feel very lively which I guess [TS]

00:24:38   is kind of part of the point because you [TS]

00:24:40   know he's been downtrodden by his [TS]

00:24:42   society but I feel like instead of you [TS]

00:24:46   as his awakening into understanding that [TS]

00:24:48   no books are important instead of that [TS]

00:24:50   making him more interesting what it [TS]

00:24:54   actually was the opposite i got more and [TS]

00:24:56   more annoyed with him as his thinks when [TS]

00:24:58   I was just like I don't care about you I [TS]

00:25:01   don't care about the things that you [TS]

00:25:02   think I'd I was more interested in favor [TS]

00:25:05   like I wanted to see what he was gonna [TS]

00:25:07   do but right now is just off to st. [TS]

00:25:08   Louis or whatever and we didn't get to [TS]

00:25:10   watch it is i mean it is a weird I guess [TS]

00:25:13   it goes hand-in-hand with bribery's of [TS]

00:25:15   take on this being a cultural kind of [TS]

00:25:18   degradation that happens when society [TS]

00:25:20   becomes disconnected from you know art [TS]

00:25:24   and other things that are the roots of [TS]

00:25:25   society and so it just becomes this [TS]

00:25:27   materialistic you know it's just it's [TS]

00:25:31   just fast cars and everybody's violent [TS]

00:25:34   and that's all that that's all that is [TS]

00:25:35   in the society is cars and and talking [TS]

00:25:37   to your TV's in every single bribery [TS]

00:25:39   short story someone dies [TS]

00:25:41   I don't know what he's complaining about [TS]

00:25:43   I mean he's the guy everyone who writes [TS]

00:25:45   who's really running violator every [TS]

00:25:48   yeah finances inside us all the only [TS]

00:25:51   sort of the actual structure that you [TS]

00:25:55   get about society is is the fireman like [TS]

00:25:57   you don't hear a whole lot more about [TS]

00:25:59   about other stuff you know you got the [TS]

00:26:00   hound and the other police sort of [TS]

00:26:02   chasing him but it it's implied that [TS]

00:26:05   it's not a big deal to just run somebody [TS]

00:26:07   over with a car because if somebody in a [TS]

00:26:09   car turns around and to try to take a [TS]

00:26:11   second run and Montague's he's trying to [TS]

00:26:13   get away because they missing the first [TS]

00:26:15   time so like they in and being shot is [TS]

00:26:18   it's not a big deal because that happens [TS]

00:26:19   to a bunch of people in the high school [TS]

00:26:21   so it seems like there's probably not [TS]

00:26:24   not a whole lot in the way of [TS]

00:26:26   consequences for that sort of thing and [TS]

00:26:28   then somewhere toward the end you get [TS]

00:26:30   him or still one of the characters [TS]

00:26:32   talking about how how this must be why [TS]

00:26:36   other countries like outside of of their [TS]

00:26:39   country hate them so much and that was [TS]

00:26:41   one of the things that really made me [TS]

00:26:42   think about the United States of today [TS]

00:26:44   because I having since i moved to Canada [TS]

00:26:48   I've realized that the sort of i want to [TS]

00:26:51   say anti-american but just like home [TS]

00:26:53   OMG America sentiment is but even [TS]

00:26:57   stronger than I thought it was living in [TS]

00:26:59   the States [TS]

00:27:00   well I I still maintain that it is good [TS]

00:27:03   book i liked it mostly because i think [TS]

00:27:05   it appeals to my inner elitism and I [TS]

00:27:08   think that more people should read books [TS]

00:27:10   about has bad it is surely this out but [TS]

00:27:13   it looks like you're gonna let your [TS]

00:27:15   shiny gold flag shine don't hide your [TS]

00:27:20   elitism under a bushel I I won't but you [TS]

00:27:23   know either there was a study that just [TS]

00:27:24   came out a little while ago that you [TS]

00:27:26   know american adults like some [TS]

00:27:29   ridiculous number have not read one book [TS]

00:27:31   in the last year and that just blows my [TS]

00:27:33   mind [TS]

00:27:33   we have got to get political but we have [TS]

00:27:35   a president who just does not like to [TS]

00:27:36   read books which is struggling to meet I [TS]

00:27:40   just feel like it's important and Ray [TS]

00:27:42   Bradbury is writing to someone like me [TS]

00:27:44   who feels like you know for every decade [TS]

00:27:47   societies crumbling because not enough [TS]

00:27:50   people read it's a perennial problem [TS]

00:27:51   which I guess means it's not really a [TS]

00:27:53   problem [TS]

00:27:54   but I don't like it the incomparable is [TS]

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00:28:55   maybe even for a few weeks before you [TS]

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00:29:47   alright let's let's talk let's go to the [TS]

00:29:50   airstrip one and talk about nineteen [TS]

00:29:54   eighty-four George Orwell is classic I I [TS]

00:30:01   was telling my wife managed to never [TS]

00:30:03   read this book i guess like Erica and [TS]

00:30:06   she still has read it and I I [TS]

00:30:08   said to her in the past i said to her [TS]

00:30:09   again I i think it's worth a read [TS]

00:30:12   I think it is one of the great books of [TS]

00:30:15   the 20th century and I think there's a [TS]

00:30:18   lot of great stuff in it [TS]

00:30:19   I had no memory of it either other than [TS]

00:30:21   little flashes i read this too young i [TS]

00:30:24   would say I read this in 1984 but I was [TS]

00:30:28   in eighth grade then and I think that [TS]

00:30:30   that I could not understand a lot of the [TS]

00:30:35   stuff i think i could have used another [TS]

00:30:36   three or four years honestly and I would [TS]

00:30:39   have appreciated a much more but i [TS]

00:30:41   really appreciated going back as an [TS]

00:30:42   adult to read it [TS]

00:30:43   obviously this is set in a in a [TS]

00:30:45   dystopian future that is now past I like [TS]

00:30:47   that Star Trek does that a lot to its [TS]

00:30:48   great the eighties oh my god it's the [TS]

00:30:51   far future where uh where there's a [TS]

00:30:53   totality is it the eighties we don't [TS]

00:30:55   know he doesn't even know it probably is [TS]

00:30:57   like 84 85 but he doesn't really [TS]

00:30:59   actually even know what year it is it is [TS]

00:31:01   a totalitarian government in the [TS]

00:31:03   super-state one of three in the world of [TS]

00:31:05   Virginia and airstrip one is the former [TS]

00:31:07   great britain and he's in London winston [TS]

00:31:10   smith and he works for the the party the [TS]

00:31:13   English socialist party in stock and ma [TS]

00:31:16   he works for uh hehe is a redactor [TS]

00:31:20   essentially he revises old newspaper [TS]

00:31:22   articles to reflect whatever the current [TS]

00:31:25   political winds are and so if somebody [TS]

00:31:30   is made to disappear or if if they cut [TS]

00:31:34   the chocolate ration he might have to [TS]

00:31:35   rewrite articles to make them seem like [TS]

00:31:38   the chocolate ration was always that and [TS]

00:31:40   it wasn't cut or perhaps was so low that [TS]

00:31:42   that that the cut seems like a an [TS]

00:31:44   increase and that's his job and he's a [TS]

00:31:47   dissident and and doesn't really believe [TS]

00:31:49   in all of this and has carved out a [TS]

00:31:50   little hole in his apartment where he [TS]

00:31:52   cannot be seen by the ever-present [TS]

00:31:54   telescreens which our TV screens that [TS]

00:31:55   cannot be shut off and can look at you [TS]

00:31:58   two and which is very max headroom [TS]

00:32:01   actually uh yeah so that that's a that [TS]

00:32:05   is 1984 it is a it I really well [TS]

00:32:09   did I enjoy reading it isn't 1984 meant [TS]

00:32:12   to be enjoyed [TS]

00:32:13   I suspect not but I appreciated the the [TS]

00:32:16   work of it overall whatever whatever [TS]

00:32:17   else is history with this thing Erica [TS]

00:32:20   you knew [TS]

00:32:21   never read it before no i didnt the ID [TS]

00:32:24   this book was not one that was required [TS]

00:32:26   in for any of the classes that I like in [TS]

00:32:29   my school so it wasn't even around that [TS]

00:32:31   other classes were reading it I just [TS]

00:32:32   kind of knew of it because you know it's [TS]

00:32:35   been part of the part of society for so [TS]

00:32:37   long kind of slipped the phrase big [TS]

00:32:40   brother is watching is something that [TS]

00:32:41   churn even I I knew even before Big [TS]

00:32:44   Brother the reality TV show ya where [TS]

00:32:47   Bradbury shakes his fist somewhere [TS]

00:32:49   John reality baby thank you thank you [TS]

00:32:52   are well for for that show you know ya [TS]

00:32:55   huh [TS]

00:32:56   but yeah so it was it was interesting to [TS]

00:32:58   watch you know I think if watch read huh [TS]

00:33:00   watch the pages was just why right but [TS]

00:33:03   the thing is i did watch the the John [TS]

00:33:05   Hurt version of the movie as well and [TS]

00:33:07   let's let's not talk about no yeah I i [TS]

00:33:11   do agree that it is a good book it is [TS]

00:33:13   not I I didn't enjoy it either but I [TS]

00:33:17   think I don't know when [TS]

00:33:19   laughs enjoy still weird word to use [TS]

00:33:22   because i think that it if you get [TS]

00:33:26   something out of it that sort of counts [TS]

00:33:28   as enjoyment on on some level and i'm [TS]

00:33:31   not even sure I got that out of it i [TS]

00:33:32   think it's a very well done book is [TS]

00:33:34   doing what it try it was trying to do [TS]

00:33:36   fairly solidly but it's not a thing that [TS]

00:33:39   I'm like I'm I guess I'm kind of glad i [TS]

00:33:41   read it once but but i don't know at [TS]

00:33:44   this point in history it was much more [TS]

00:33:46   difficult to read than i expected it to [TS]

00:33:47   me and I expected it to be difficult i [TS]

00:33:49   feel like there's a basic cultural [TS]

00:33:51   literacy though about it but there's so [TS]

00:33:53   much refers to it that knowing the [TS]

00:33:56   details of it i think is helpful in just [TS]

00:33:58   how people refer to it because it is it [TS]

00:34:02   is such a part of me has such a currency [TS]

00:34:04   and in so many different terms that we [TS]

00:34:06   use now I feel like it's got gain that [TS]

00:34:08   cultural status that like of the Mona [TS]

00:34:10   Lisa where you don't even you can't [TS]

00:34:12   experience the Mona Lisa you are just [TS]

00:34:13   experience the experience of CM the mona [TS]

00:34:16   lisa station so it's kind of like you [TS]

00:34:17   know you don't really need to read 1984 [TS]

00:34:19   to reference 1984 understand i think [TS]

00:34:22   reading it makes it much better [TS]

00:34:25   whatever that means right you you [TS]

00:34:27   understand the full importance but i'm [TS]

00:34:29   sure that you should read the books you [TS]

00:34:30   should be doing that is my bold step [TS]

00:34:32   looks best when red is what you're [TS]

00:34:34   saying [TS]

00:34:34   got it did you remember this book uh I [TS]

00:34:38   remember reading it I remember account [TS]

00:34:41   that I knew nothing of what happened i [TS]

00:34:45   remember the telescreens and big brother [TS]

00:34:48   always watching but that was about all i [TS]

00:34:50   read i remembered i remember too happy [TS]

00:34:54   ending and there's not a happy ending in [TS]

00:34:55   this book so I don't know where I came [TS]

00:34:56   from with that but I don't know he seems [TS]

00:34:58   pretty happy at the end he looked big [TS]

00:35:01   brother us it was great [TS]

00:35:03   it's a love story John what's your from [TS]

00:35:06   1984 experience [TS]

00:35:08   oh I I read this in high school I wasn't [TS]

00:35:11   it was assigned to me we had animal farm [TS]

00:35:14   assigned to us by red 1984 i was reading [TS]

00:35:17   a bunch of the air air how you mention [TS]

00:35:20   they vote in the early eighties for [TS]

00:35:23   these really grungy dystopias i think it [TS]

00:35:27   was something about the Reagan years era [TS]

00:35:29   that did that but i read this i read a [TS]

00:35:32   clockwork orange or red all these things [TS]

00:35:34   and at the time it seemed funnier to me [TS]

00:35:38   is it as a high school student i guess [TS]

00:35:40   here yeah I thought I was too cool for [TS]

00:35:43   school and kind of cynical as i read it [TS]

00:35:45   now it's just kind of unrelentingly [TS]

00:35:48   depressing and it's so it's so [TS]

00:35:51   oppressive and/or will makes this point [TS]

00:35:55   very early on and i think the other [TS]

00:35:59   thing that has happened in the time [TS]

00:36:00   since then as I've read a lot of [TS]

00:36:02   Orwell's essays and I think that he's a [TS]

00:36:06   better a serious than he is a novelist [TS]

00:36:09   and certainly a lot of the ideas that he [TS]

00:36:11   covers in 1984 are covered in his essay [TS]

00:36:15   politics in the English language which [TS]

00:36:17   is one of the greatest asset is written [TS]

00:36:19   in English the other greatest SI being [TS]

00:36:22   shooting an elephant which is also by [TS]

00:36:24   george orwell and-and-and there he's [TS]

00:36:27   allowed to be a little bit more direct a [TS]

00:36:30   little bit more [TS]

00:36:30   he's not playing with irony the way that [TS]

00:36:33   he is in this book and so it's a little [TS]

00:36:35   bit more [TS]

00:36:37   he's a little more decent to the reader [TS]

00:36:39   this is kind of I I agree [TS]

00:36:42   you can't judge a book on whether or not [TS]

00:36:45   you it brings you enjoyment in the sense [TS]

00:36:47   that you feel a thrill [TS]

00:36:50   there are certainly points to this book [TS]

00:36:51   where you feel chills or you profoundly [TS]

00:36:56   disturbed and there are profoundly [TS]

00:36:59   starkly beautiful images but there's [TS]

00:37:04   also a lot of that xserve expositional [TS]

00:37:08   writing where people spend a lot of time [TS]

00:37:10   saying as you know this this is the [TS]

00:37:14   society we live in [TS]

00:37:15   but let me explain it to you anyway let [TS]

00:37:17   me read you this book that explains [TS]

00:37:19   everything [TS]

00:37:19   see that that's something that you can [TS]

00:37:20   tell that he is an SAS and this actually [TS]

00:37:23   reminded me to of brave new world which [TS]

00:37:24   which john i read for sophomore lid on [TS]

00:37:27   74 you haven't done an episode about [TS]

00:37:28   that for sophomore let ya know it's [TS]

00:37:31   pretty striking while the iron is hot [TS]

00:37:32   you just read it you don't have to read [TS]

00:37:34   together on the both of those books [TS]

00:37:37   basically stopped for you to read [TS]

00:37:39   another work that is going to be quoted [TS]

00:37:41   at length and I always felt like that [TS]

00:37:43   was kind of a a cheap trick that that [TS]

00:37:46   it's basically like here's this book by [TS]

00:37:50   Manuel goldsteins you should read it and [TS]

00:37:52   then like we proceeded to read large [TS]

00:37:54   passenger but yes I was gonna say you [TS]

00:37:56   know I that Johnny I believe you that he [TS]

00:37:59   is a better SAS know but you know I've [TS]

00:38:01   never read any of his essays oh wait yes [TS]

00:38:03   I have this right it looks like you know [TS]

00:38:06   you know yeah and that was that stuff [TS]

00:38:08   when he's like okay as a novelist she's [TS]

00:38:10   like throwing up his hands like all [TS]

00:38:11   right I'm gonna have a marine SI and [TS]

00:38:14   here it is that was kind of the point [TS]

00:38:16   that I sort of just jumped off in this [TS]

00:38:18   now i really like the topic I ain't [TS]

00:38:20   enjoyed the beginning because i was sort [TS]

00:38:22   of you know feeling out the edges of [TS]

00:38:24   this world from the perspective of the [TS]

00:38:27   main character and I think thought that [TS]

00:38:28   was very skillfully done it was really [TS]

00:38:31   interesting to discover the way the [TS]

00:38:33   world worked piece by piece as it was [TS]

00:38:36   being revealed to us through the eyes of [TS]

00:38:37   this Porsche lobby character but as we [TS]

00:38:41   went on this Porsche lobby character [TS]

00:38:43   that kind of same as in Fahrenheit 451 [TS]

00:38:45   I didn't really care that much about the [TS]

00:38:49   character and yes again i'm sure it was [TS]

00:38:51   it is a part of that world you don't [TS]

00:38:53   have all that much in her life because [TS]

00:38:54   you've been so stamped down from the [TS]

00:38:56   outside but it there was real [TS]

00:38:59   nothing once I've kind of gotten an idea [TS]

00:39:02   of the world he inhabited nothing that [TS]

00:39:04   sort of drew me to him and then we get [TS]

00:39:07   this female character who I'm excited by [TS]

00:39:09   it first and then realize oh no she's [TS]

00:39:11   not really treated hell that well either [TS]

00:39:12   from the point of view of the of the [TS]

00:39:15   writer she doesn't she doesn't care [TS]

00:39:16   about anything she wants to get laid [TS]

00:39:18   okay well so I just and then there's the [TS]

00:39:21   essay and at that point I was just like [TS]

00:39:22   I don't care anymore excusing the rest [TS]

00:39:24   of this sucker i can see both sides of [TS]

00:39:26   it right because yes on one level [TS]

00:39:28   she's just having sex with people but on [TS]

00:39:30   another level i would say this is her [TS]

00:39:32   act of rebellion against the state she's [TS]

00:39:34   forced to be in the anti-sex League you [TS]

00:39:36   know all these things and this is her [TS]

00:39:38   act of rebellion which was good i I [TS]

00:39:40   thought that was cool and then you know [TS]

00:39:42   it but then and then she falls in love [TS]

00:39:44   with him which I have mixed feelings [TS]

00:39:45   about you know love love can be great [TS]

00:39:47   but then that becomes her only defining [TS]

00:39:50   character characteristic for the rest of [TS]

00:39:52   the book she doesn't really care about [TS]

00:39:54   rebelling against Big Brother she's only [TS]

00:39:56   doing what she's doing [TS]

00:39:57   so that she can be close to the man that [TS]

00:39:58   she has fallen in love with after all [TS]

00:40:01   that sexy show so sharp edged up to the [TS]

00:40:04   up to that point and then she just kind [TS]

00:40:06   of recedes into the background right [TS]

00:40:07   after that you [TS]

00:40:09   yeah David I didn't give you a chance to [TS]

00:40:11   weigh in here [TS]

00:40:13   yeah I i actually had the commemorative [TS]

00:40:15   1984 edition right when the sort of [TS]

00:40:18   blocky chunky letter up lettering on the [TS]

00:40:20   cover when i read in 8th grade and and [TS]

00:40:23   but i but i never got through it until [TS]

00:40:25   1988-89 in senior year and yeah it [TS]

00:40:32   it reads really differently when your [TS]

00:40:33   teen because you know at that point you [TS]

00:40:37   know I'd been reading a lot of science [TS]

00:40:38   fiction but so I appreciate the world [TS]

00:40:40   building and you're kinda like all these [TS]

00:40:43   cool slogans oh that's a clever [TS]

00:40:44   combination of words no doublethink ya [TS]

00:40:46   ando mini true [TS]

00:40:49   whoo that's great and and then you start [TS]

00:40:52   getting into the the characters and the [TS]

00:40:54   story you're like okay that's you know [TS]

00:40:56   and then you hit the essay [TS]

00:40:58   yeah and now it's the you know the world [TS]

00:41:02   building is still very good but now you [TS]

00:41:06   see after 25 some 30 years [TS]

00:41:11   you see the the combinations of words [TS]

00:41:14   and the double think the inn in real [TS]

00:41:17   life and you're going oh that's not [TS]

00:41:18   really clever with world-building that's [TS]

00:41:20   actually happening [TS]

00:41:21   Oh God and it's much darker and more [TS]

00:41:25   depressing so I mean it i would say it [TS]

00:41:28   is a great book i can't say i like it [TS]

00:41:31   but it's a great book you have to you [TS]

00:41:33   should read it one of the nice things in [TS]

00:41:35   that a.m animal farm episode of [TS]

00:41:37   sophomore lid which is good i recommend [TS]

00:41:39   it to people it's a it's a really fun [TS]

00:41:40   episode [TS]

00:41:41   although John you and Elliot sort of [TS]

00:41:44   spent a lot of time like not talking [TS]

00:41:46   about the book before perfect talking [TS]

00:41:48   about the book but the point that I [TS]

00:41:50   think Elliot made in that episode is [TS]

00:41:51   george orwell eric blair was a socialist [TS]

00:41:55   but he was also waste a pretty strident [TS]

00:41:57   anti Stalinist and that a lot of his [TS]

00:42:02   work is commentary on you know it's not [TS]

00:42:06   just about like future peril it's about [TS]

00:42:08   the Soviet Union and about the way that [TS]

00:42:10   information is controlled in the Soviet [TS]

00:42:12   Union and so great you know that that is [TS]

00:42:14   you know some of what he's doing here is [TS]

00:42:16   not is not a warning about the future [TS]

00:42:20   it's a warning about his present and I [TS]

00:42:23   think that's kind of one interesting way [TS]

00:42:25   of looking at it also getting back to [TS]

00:42:28   him being an SAS yeah you can really [TS]

00:42:30   read this whole book as being somebody [TS]

00:42:34   who is really interested in the idea of [TS]

00:42:37   a new language that suppresses nuanced [TS]

00:42:40   and that you can control your society by [TS]

00:42:42   coming up with a new language and that [TS]

00:42:44   he kind of built a whole story around [TS]

00:42:45   that because at its core I think [TS]

00:42:48   sometimes the Newspeak is what this is [TS]

00:42:51   kind of about and the fact that it ends [TS]

00:42:53   with a lengthy essay about Newspeak that [TS]

00:42:57   is interestingly enough and this is the [TS]

00:42:58   glimmer of hope it is written kind of [TS]

00:43:01   from an in world perspective word is [TS]

00:43:02   referred to as something that happened [TS]

00:43:04   in the past but it's written standard [TS]

00:43:06   English so the suggestion is that in the [TS]

00:43:09   end this regime did fall and that [TS]

00:43:12   English standard English returned [TS]

00:43:14   because of that sa but I but you know [TS]

00:43:18   that aside it sort of feels to me like [TS]

00:43:20   the essay was really wanted to do [TS]

00:43:23   andrea was a way to explore those [TS]

00:43:25   concepts about what if we had you know [TS]

00:43:28   double plus good and I'm good and you [TS]

00:43:30   know I and and boiling the language down [TS]

00:43:32   to this tiny controlled set of words one [TS]

00:43:35   that was kind of thing at the time right [TS]

00:43:37   taking a thought experiment and building [TS]

00:43:39   it out and then turning it into a novel [TS]

00:43:41   and say okay what would we do in this [TS]

00:43:44   situation and and so it's not written [TS]

00:43:46   like like a prose craftsman like coming [TS]

00:43:50   up with a great plot and prose [TS]

00:43:51   everything it's it's how can we tell [TS]

00:43:54   this lesson through fiction and you know [TS]

00:43:58   the Inklings doodle did it a little bit [TS]

00:44:00   and r and then it a little bit [TS]

00:44:04   there's I mean there's literally like a [TS]

00:44:05   hundred and fifty page segment of Atlas [TS]

00:44:07   Shrugged that is a radio speech that [TS]

00:44:09   supposedly takes an hour and like no [TS]

00:44:12   that's about five days I i think that [TS]

00:44:14   it's worth reading this book simply for [TS]

00:44:17   this very reason because today we're so [TS]

00:44:21   steeped in server a post Raymond Carver [TS]

00:44:24   world where in the literary world at [TS]

00:44:26   least the the pinnacle of literature is [TS]

00:44:30   writing convincing characters and [TS]

00:44:32   writing convincing dialogue and having [TS]

00:44:34   this and run these moments that feel [TS]

00:44:37   real and we've got we've gotten kind of [TS]

00:44:39   so into that and we forgot that there [TS]

00:44:41   are other ways to write books and [TS]

00:44:43   certainly I think the mid-century [TS]

00:44:45   everyone was writing [TS]

00:44:47   ideabooks I mean with brave new world [TS]

00:44:50   was ideabook this is an idea but yeah a [TS]

00:44:52   lot of science fiction around this time [TS]

00:44:54   are ideabooks but a lot of major works [TS]

00:44:56   of literature are were ideabooks too i [TS]

00:44:59   think what's interesting when you when [TS]

00:45:01   you mentioned that Jason that the last [TS]

00:45:03   essay they're being written serve in [TS]

00:45:06   World the about the Newspeak it actually [TS]

00:45:11   reminded me why I was reading it through [TS]

00:45:12   of the fact the appendix to the [TS]

00:45:15   handmaid's tale which is also lets it [TS]

00:45:18   was sort of this ostensibly scholarly [TS]

00:45:21   look back on the book you've just read [TS]

00:45:23   and it kind of it has very strict a [TS]

00:45:26   strange effect where your kind of [TS]

00:45:28   invited to look at this whole book that [TS]

00:45:30   you've wrapped in now as well we don't [TS]

00:45:32   know whether this was true or not or [TS]

00:45:33   whether this was a work of propaganda [TS]

00:45:36   or what it was and up till now you've [TS]

00:45:38   been very deeply invested in the the [TS]

00:45:41   characters and and that's a lot of [TS]

00:45:44   people point to that ending of the book [TS]

00:45:45   is though it's something kind of a Miss [TS]

00:45:48   misstep almost i don't know i don't want [TS]

00:45:51   to read that book but it had that same [TS]

00:45:54   effect at the end of 94 of kind of [TS]

00:45:58   popping me out of this world and making [TS]

00:46:00   me look at everything as you know ideas [TS]

00:46:05   and stand-ins for you know Stalinism or [TS]

00:46:08   whatever it's funny you mentioned [TS]

00:46:10   margaret atwood right because one of the [TS]

00:46:12   pieces that i read in prepping for this [TS]

00:46:14   podcast isn't is an essay by margaret [TS]

00:46:17   atwood about that final essay in 1984 so [TS]

00:46:20   i think was definitely hiring [TS]

00:46:21   influential to her [TS]

00:46:23   perhaps what even when writing [TS]

00:46:24   handmaid's tale and she she's one of [TS]

00:46:26   those people who believes that you know [TS]

00:46:28   you need to read it as a not just you [TS]

00:46:30   know it's not written as hey it's me [TS]

00:46:32   george orwell let me talk about Newspeak [TS]

00:46:35   it's like scholarly work in world and [TS]

00:46:37   you know science fiction readers are [TS]

00:46:38   more used to that conceit maybe then [TS]

00:46:40   then people who are reading more [TS]

00:46:42   mainstream stuff but it's an important [TS]

00:46:44   distinction that it's it's sort of not [TS]

00:46:46   breaking the the the wall in order to [TS]

00:46:51   talk about how the book was done it's [TS]

00:46:52   been it's instead this retrospective [TS]

00:46:54   thing but I mean you also see that this [TS]

00:46:57   is what drives him this is the thing [TS]

00:46:58   stuff he's most interested in we've seen [TS]

00:47:00   it in something like politics in the [TS]

00:47:01   English language this is the stuff that [TS]

00:47:03   george orwell was fascinated by and that [TS]

00:47:06   the story itself i do think the story [TS]

00:47:08   suffers in from modernize in the fact [TS]

00:47:10   that we have seen a lot of dystopias now [TS]

00:47:12   and and so perhaps it in 1949 this would [TS]

00:47:17   have been a lot fresher but a lot of [TS]

00:47:19   people have done this kind of dystopian [TS]

00:47:21   since then so there's there's less [TS]

00:47:23   shocked in in in what you see in it [TS]

00:47:26   although they're funny moments I mean [TS]

00:47:27   you you know that the the it's almost [TS]

00:47:30   like a comedy gag where he keeps taking [TS]

00:47:31   out of cigarettes and the tobacco flies [TS]

00:47:34   out of them [TS]

00:47:34   that's money and make and and they talk [TS]

00:47:36   about the victory gin which I mean I [TS]

00:47:38   don't even want to know what's in it but [TS]

00:47:39   it's he describes in detail and its [TS]

00:47:41   second and it sounds terrible oily yeah [TS]

00:47:44   that's good in the end the coffee that's [TS]

00:47:47   not any good and the chocolate rations [TS]

00:47:50   which when he finally have some real [TS]

00:47:51   chocolate he describes what the actual [TS]

00:47:53   chocolate tastes like after complaining [TS]

00:47:55   about them cutting the rations and it's [TS]

00:47:57   like something that was from like some [TS]

00:48:00   it's like the Ash left over after [TS]

00:48:02   something burned is what the chocolate [TS]

00:48:04   tastes like so there's i do think that [TS]

00:48:06   there's some funny things in there too [TS]

00:48:07   or when O'Brien uh gives him a drink and [TS]

00:48:09   since it's called wine [TS]

00:48:10   yeah well as for i knows this is [TS]

00:48:15   something i was i was gonna ask erica to [TS]

00:48:17   how much of knowing the tropes and [TS]

00:48:21   knowing the details you know coming at [TS]

00:48:26   this fresh it's it's you know you don't [TS]

00:48:28   know those things and like even my my [TS]

00:48:30   children no big brother than a Winston [TS]

00:48:32   Smith they know we have always they do [TS]

00:48:34   jokes we have always been at war with my [TS]

00:48:36   brother right now see I didn't even know [TS]

00:48:38   that they haven't read the book right [TS]

00:48:41   but they've seen references to it online [TS]

00:48:43   they've seen references and TV shows or [TS]

00:48:45   other things and so we were talking it [TS]

00:48:48   over like the other day the 15 year olds [TS]

00:48:51   like when he reading is 1984 and the int [TS]

00:48:54   runs through all these things [TS]

00:48:55   war is peace and you know and then a [TS]

00:48:59   commercial for whose adaptation of the [TS]

00:49:01   handmade and the handmaid's tale comes [TS]

00:49:05   on and he's riveted he's like what's [TS]

00:49:08   that [TS]

00:49:09   so it's based on a book by margaret [TS]

00:49:10   atwood what's going on well here's the [TS]

00:49:12   basic story and he got more and more [TS]

00:49:15   upset as i was telling him just like the [TS]

00:49:17   blurb from the book right and that's not [TS]

00:49:19   even you know that's like the tiniest [TS]

00:49:21   amount of detail of the thing and I [TS]

00:49:24   think i'm curious to see what happens if [TS]

00:49:27   and when he reads that without any of [TS]

00:49:29   the preamble that he had four 1984 like [TS]

00:49:32   1984 he knows it right [TS]

00:49:34   yeah he's hurt at all yeah well I've I [TS]

00:49:37   felt like I really only had the very [TS]

00:49:40   broadest broad strokes I I knew even [TS]

00:49:43   less than your kids did I didn't know [TS]

00:49:44   the characters name you know if I heard [TS]

00:49:46   the phrase Ministry of Truth didn't [TS]

00:49:47   actually know what it referred to and [TS]

00:49:50   they knew that long five uses the same [TS]

00:49:52   terms and that's a 94 reference you [TS]

00:49:55   might have gotten it from there [TS]

00:49:56   that actually probably is where i doing [TS]

00:49:59   and it's another 30 number huh and and [TS]

00:50:03   yes I used Italian totalitarian society [TS]

00:50:06   and he and I knew the big brother you [TS]

00:50:09   know they were they were being watched [TS]

00:50:10   all the time and i think i heard that [TS]

00:50:12   police that really that was it I mean [TS]

00:50:13   for me it was it was sort of like I had [TS]

00:50:15   these tentpole phrases and everything [TS]

00:50:18   was just sort of coloring in and filling [TS]

00:50:21   it in but I certainly as difficult as it [TS]

00:50:23   was to read in part because of the way [TS]

00:50:25   the world is today but it's still [TS]

00:50:28   nothing compared to what I experienced [TS]

00:50:30   when i read The Handmaid's Tale which [TS]

00:50:32   many years ago because that actually [TS]

00:50:35   felt like a personal story told right [TS]

00:50:37   the point of view of a character [TS]

00:50:39   this was the outline of a character who [TS]

00:50:41   was you know sort of swooping his way [TS]

00:50:44   through this world and the world [TS]

00:50:45   illustrate the worldly matters [TS]

00:50:47   yeah I will say also that not to get to [TS]

00:50:50   trivialize this but I mean when you get [TS]

00:50:52   to the point where star trek the next [TS]

00:50:53   generation does an entire hour about [TS]

00:50:55   breaking a character in a bit and [TS]

00:50:58   torture chamber in order to get them to [TS]

00:51:00   say two plus two is five essentially i [TS]

00:51:03   think that we've you know as a society [TS]

00:51:05   we have as a as a pop culture we have [TS]

00:51:08   processed what happens in the last act [TS]

00:51:10   1984 and kind of spat it out the other [TS]

00:51:12   side now so as effective as it is i [TS]

00:51:15   think that at the same time like we've [TS]

00:51:17   all processed it now and that that is I [TS]

00:51:20   feel bad because that you know this is [TS]

00:51:22   this is what happens to works that are [TS]

00:51:23   this influential is that it's hard to [TS]

00:51:25   judge them as being as influential [TS]

00:51:28   unites deserving as they should be [TS]

00:51:30   because all of it has you know it [TS]

00:51:32   seriously you read that and you're like [TS]

00:51:34   oh yeah there are there are four lights [TS]

00:51:35   right i mean it's like it's the same [TS]

00:51:37   thing and it's like yeah okay but almost [TS]

00:51:40   every 1960 spy TV show did a variation [TS]

00:51:43   on the Asher sequence right was always [TS]

00:51:46   let's play the entire here in our room [TS]

00:51:48   and break him and the entirety of the [TS]

00:51:50   prisoners especially and and when I was [TS]

00:51:51   so young adult novels and held today [TS]

00:51:53   exactly right so that you see that [TS]

00:51:55   influence influential nature of it but [TS]

00:51:57   that makes it hard to kind of you know [TS]

00:51:59   it's hard to hard to judge it there i [TS]

00:52:01   wanted the the thing decor this we [TS]

00:52:05   talked about it a little bit but the [TS]

00:52:07   thing that really i think has the most [TS]

00:52:09   residents is [TS]

00:52:09   is this idea of information and [TS]

00:52:13   controlling information and and yes and [TS]

00:52:15   language and how people talk and the [TS]

00:52:17   idea of getting people to believe things [TS]

00:52:19   it in the in a way like fahrenheit 451 [TS]

00:52:21   some of the people don't care but also [TS]

00:52:23   its this complete control like if we [TS]

00:52:26   tell you something that is false and and [TS]

00:52:30   say it's true then you will believe it [TS]

00:52:33   and if you if you try to check up on us [TS]

00:52:35   you will find that all of the [TS]

00:52:37   information its kind of gas lighting on [TS]

00:52:39   a grand scale like then all of your all [TS]

00:52:41   of your all of your reference material [TS]

00:52:43   will agree with the lie and at one point [TS]

00:52:46   Smith and when he's being tortured says [TS]

00:52:48   to himself well everything in the world [TS]

00:52:51   happens in our minds as interpreted by [TS]

00:52:53   our minds and every mind believes this [TS]

00:52:55   thing to be true then is it not true and [TS]

00:52:58   I thought I found that fascinating the [TS]

00:53:00   idea that that its core this is a book [TS]

00:53:02   about complete control of information [TS]

00:53:04   and that if you can control information [TS]

00:53:06   you control reality because that's all [TS]

00:53:09   that is required [TS]

00:53:10   yeah I i used to work at a biotech [TS]

00:53:11   company that in was interested the CEO [TS]

00:53:17   is interested in research into the brain [TS]

00:53:20   and some really kind of out-there stuff [TS]

00:53:21   and we would have conferences from time [TS]

00:53:24   to time and some of the presentations of [TS]

00:53:28   the conference's talking about brain [TS]

00:53:30   chemistry and the way the human brain [TS]

00:53:32   processes its input and you know what [TS]

00:53:35   what the nature of reality is and how [TS]

00:53:37   much it's actually based on the [TS]

00:53:38   chemicals in the brain and what [TS]

00:53:40   receptors they happen to attach [TS]

00:53:41   themselves to the idea that that yeah [TS]

00:53:44   that everybody just choosing to believe [TS]

00:53:47   something different and in that this one [TS]

00:53:51   character is the guy who's actually [TS]

00:53:52   crazy and it's everybody else that's [TS]

00:53:54   saying isn't that far off from some of [TS]

00:53:57   the the the research and the the [TS]

00:53:59   theories that I had learned about the [TS]

00:54:01   path so that was that was uncomfortable [TS]

00:54:02   in an entirely different level like oh [TS]

00:54:04   my god what what if he did flowed out of [TS]

00:54:07   the room but that could be a thing so [TS]

00:54:10   yeah it was trippy it's also i mean [TS]

00:54:12   talking about the earpiece in fahrenheit [TS]

00:54:14   451 and there's some there's some [TS]

00:54:16   interesting tech and brave new world [TS]

00:54:17   that John and I talked about an event [TS]

00:54:18   that episode of sophomore lit in 1984 [TS]

00:54:21   I'm struck by the [TS]

00:54:22   it is in a totalitarian state with [TS]

00:54:26   complete surveillance like Winston Smith [TS]

00:54:27   got his little cubbyhole where he cannot [TS]

00:54:29   make noise but he can write in his [TS]

00:54:31   notebook without being seen by the [TS]

00:54:33   telescreen but I'm struck by the fact [TS]

00:54:36   that there's no I mean other than [TS]

00:54:39   essentially CCTV there's no like [TS]

00:54:41   location surveillance so it nor is there [TS]

00:54:44   a it seems like a like a data trail kind [TS]

00:54:49   of concept so he's able to get on a [TS]

00:54:51   train out into the country and walk [TS]

00:54:53   around and end up in the woods and then [TS]

00:54:56   meet Julia and he's able to do that [TS]

00:54:59   maybe they go by different means in case [TS]

00:55:01   they're followed but I did think oh haha [TS]

00:55:03   yeah you can do that today right because [TS]

00:55:06   you would have to explain why your cell [TS]

00:55:08   phone wasn't on or leave it behind and [TS]

00:55:11   you'd be you have to pay for the ticket [TS]

00:55:13   with a code that is tied to you and all [TS]

00:55:16   these things that I kept thinking about [TS]

00:55:18   how there would be plenty more [TS]

00:55:20   technology has created plenty more ways [TS]

00:55:22   to exert control over population than [TS]

00:55:24   then you even see in 1984 [TS]

00:55:26   yeah and actually in in that case it's [TS]

00:55:28   almost a little more fahrenheit 451 [TS]

00:55:30   esque in that you know the population [TS]

00:55:33   has voluntarily given up information [TS]

00:55:35   about where they are i mean how many [TS]

00:55:37   people have their GPS just turned on [TS]

00:55:39   their cell phone all the time whereas [TS]

00:55:42   you know if they if they did have that [TS]

00:55:43   technology right it would be very [TS]

00:55:45   difficult for them to to sneak away [TS]

00:55:47   yeah it's interesting it's an [TS]

00:55:48   interesting world in that there's [TS]

00:55:50   actually very little high technology in [TS]

00:55:53   this world it's it's all just kind of [TS]

00:55:55   reconfiguring things that sort of [TS]

00:55:58   existed in 1948 when he was writing this [TS]

00:56:00   book but the the and the other thing [TS]

00:56:02   that's interesting to me is that the [TS]

00:56:04   proletariat class [TS]

00:56:06   it seems to be kind of left to their own [TS]

00:56:09   devices they seem to be they seem to [TS]

00:56:11   have more of a connection to the past [TS]

00:56:14   and what's interesting is that being a [TS]

00:56:18   member of the upper class seems to be a [TS]

00:56:21   trap as far as as Winston is concerned [TS]

00:56:26   but it it it's remarkable in a way this [TS]

00:56:29   book you know I was talking about how [TS]

00:56:32   Bradbury as a kind of an autodidact was [TS]

00:56:34   kind of pushing his way up [TS]

00:56:35   and making a case for elitism or well [TS]

00:56:40   came from a server impoverished [TS]

00:56:43   gentility he is like his grandfather had [TS]

00:56:47   a noble title i don't think it it [TS]

00:56:50   persisted to is his day but he went [TS]

00:56:53   through you know all the education [TS]

00:56:55   everything but but he let his life like [TS]

00:56:58   living amongst the slums and he actually [TS]

00:57:01   wrote a book about like living rough in [TS]

00:57:03   the streets of Paris and London and so [TS]

00:57:06   he has this kind of a romantic view of [TS]

00:57:08   what it means to be poor and it's kinda [TS]

00:57:10   like you know the pulp song common [TS]

00:57:14   people i always feel it's kind of a [TS]

00:57:15   little bit uh it's a little bit [TS]

00:57:18   condescending I i'm struck the polls are [TS]

00:57:20   very interesting in this because they [TS]

00:57:21   they have their they have the bars and [TS]

00:57:24   they they get to drink beer and they can [TS]

00:57:26   be those of they can read things I mean [TS]

00:57:28   it the the whatever they said seventeen [TS]

00:57:30   percent of the population who can read [TS]

00:57:33   and they have their lottery that they [TS]

00:57:36   talk about I mean you you get it is a [TS]

00:57:37   little bit of like the preparations for [TS]

00:57:39   like they have sport they have like [TS]

00:57:41   football and beer and things like that [TS]

00:57:44   and they're there in some ways they seem [TS]

00:57:46   happier than the miserable people in the [TS]

00:57:48   party in the outer party like winston [TS]

00:57:50   smith that's interesting also a unlike [TS]

00:57:54   something like like brave new world [TS]

00:57:58   which is is weird and creepy but it's [TS]

00:58:00   also super shiny and futuristic one of [TS]

00:58:03   the things that Orwell doesn't do here [TS]

00:58:04   is have 1984b futuristic anyway there [TS]

00:58:07   are the telescreens and they provide [TS]

00:58:08   this this complete viewing of everybody [TS]

00:58:13   they can see you but like the world is [TS]

00:58:16   just awful like its battered and [TS]

00:58:18   everything is rationed and they the [TS]

00:58:20   things other than the government [TS]

00:58:21   buildings everything is run down and you [TS]

00:58:25   can get this grimy you get the sense [TS]

00:58:27   that the whole world yeah there's that [TS]

00:58:28   moment where he goes to fix the [TS]

00:58:29   neighbors the pipe in the neighbors sink [TS]

00:58:32   and he looks at her and says she looks [TS]

00:58:35   almost like she has dust in the cracks [TS]

00:58:37   you know in the increases in her face [TS]

00:58:39   and then she stands in better light was [TS]

00:58:40   like oh she does she does have dust on [TS]

00:58:43   her face because everything is just [TS]

00:58:44   dusty and grey and green [TS]

00:58:46   and battered and falling apart and I [TS]

00:58:49   kinda like that about it that this is [TS]

00:58:50   Aidan you know it's not a futuristic [TS]

00:58:53   world where we've traded our freedom for [TS]

00:58:55   comfort [TS]

00:58:56   it is a drab awful totalitarian [TS]

00:59:00   government where nobody has anything he [TS]

00:59:02   tries to find out find an old pro who [TS]

00:59:04   could tell him like was it better in the [TS]

00:59:06   old days who cannot answer his question [TS]

00:59:08   but I I like that about it yeah and that [TS]

00:59:11   ties into what John was saying earlier [TS]

00:59:13   about the technology really just sort of [TS]

00:59:15   you know somewhat being a rehash of the [TS]

00:59:17   technology that they had him and he [TS]

00:59:18   makes a point in one of the sah parts [TS]

00:59:20   i'm talking about why that happens [TS]

00:59:23   because you're quashing so much of the [TS]

00:59:25   the creativity in the free thought I [TS]

00:59:27   mean the one person the guy who was [TS]

00:59:30   helping make the Newspeak dictionary the [TS]

00:59:32   11th version i had actually had such a [TS]

00:59:35   quick mind and with was an intelligent [TS]

00:59:37   fellow my mind of course Winston Winston [TS]

00:59:40   yes once knew he was going to disappear [TS]

00:59:41   and then and then he did because anybody [TS]

00:59:43   who is it is smart and creative enough [TS]

00:59:45   to come up with a new technology that [TS]

00:59:47   would be helpful for everyone gets gets [TS]

00:59:49   disappeared and vaporize pretty quick [TS]

00:59:51   and he mentions that the all the [TS]

00:59:53   engineers are set to just improving the [TS]

00:59:57   weapons that can kill people [TS]

00:59:57   weapons that can kill people [TS]

01:00:00   when they already have the the nuclear [TS]

01:00:01   bomb that can kill most effectively but [TS]

01:00:03   they spend all their time you know [TS]

01:00:05   making poison gas and floating [TS]

01:00:06   fortresses that are slightly better than [TS]

01:00:09   others just to use up the resources so [TS]

01:00:11   that nobody can be happy [TS]

01:00:13   yes I'm story is really great because [TS]

01:00:16   that is a that is a wonderful bit piece [TS]

01:00:18   of I think satire as well which is which [TS]

01:00:20   is Simon is a true believer right he [TS]

01:00:23   believes in the party and everything [TS]

01:00:24   that's going on but he's still a threat [TS]

01:00:26   because he's too smart and he he don't [TS]

01:00:29   want they don't want people who are that [TS]

01:00:32   intelligent and can think that far ahead [TS]

01:00:34   because that is dangerous to the party [TS]

01:00:36   the party doesn't want outliers even if [TS]

01:00:39   they're on the parties side and so sign [TS]

01:00:42   is doomed [TS]

01:00:43   even though he's totally on the side of [TS]

01:00:45   the party because he's just he's too [TS]

01:00:46   bright and to creative and that is a [TS]

01:00:48   that is a very cutting thing about how [TS]

01:00:50   like this is not this is not a system [TS]

01:00:53   designed to bring out the best in people [TS]

01:00:55   and to advance the best people it is it [TS]

01:00:58   is meant to crush everybody even at its [TS]

01:01:00   own death into its own detriment which [TS]

01:01:02   is what happens [TS]

01:01:03   yeah and the character of persons who is [TS]

01:01:05   kind of the opposite is he's he's an [TS]

01:01:08   idiot but he's totally into the party [TS]

01:01:10   and he is he's all for it [TS]

01:01:12   he he does the activities he raises the [TS]

01:01:14   money for the bunting he's teaching his [TS]

01:01:16   kids to be good and of course they spy [TS]

01:01:20   on him and his supposedly in his sleep [TS]

01:01:22   he was talking about death big brother [TS]

01:01:24   and so he ends up in prison and one [TS]

01:01:27   assumes killed sure you're wanted on the [TS]

01:01:30   core 101 right yeah yeah it's a young [TS]

01:01:34   person's Parsons rides rises high in the [TS]

01:01:38   party because he is he is he's dumb and [TS]

01:01:42   and a true believer right and so he's [TS]

01:01:45   he's not threatening in any way I [TS]

01:01:46   actually I mean if you back it out like [TS]

01:01:48   in brave new world there are a lot of we [TS]

01:01:51   see into the inner workings of the kind [TS]

01:01:54   of titans who control that society and [TS]

01:01:57   in 1984 we don't like we see a Brian [TS]

01:01:59   who's in the inner party and he's got [TS]

01:02:00   wine to prove it right but like big [TS]

01:02:03   brother is strongly and prot implied [TS]

01:02:05   that big brother does not exist and [TS]

01:02:07   perhaps never did exist and you do one [TS]

01:02:10   of the things i kinda like also about [TS]

01:02:11   this society is [TS]

01:02:13   it's like an empty machine like the [TS]

01:02:15   society is running itself at this point [TS]

01:02:17   there is no dictator to speak of [TS]

01:02:20   there is just the party and it's [TS]

01:02:22   completely faceless and that's [TS]

01:02:24   interesting because if there are people [TS]

01:02:26   in positions of power then they can be [TS]

01:02:29   corrupt and they can be taken advantage [TS]

01:02:31   of or they can overthrow the system and [TS]

01:02:33   in 1984 i think one of the chilling [TS]

01:02:34   things about it is there are no leaders [TS]

01:02:38   that it's just a blank machine [TS]

01:02:41   big brother is as far as we can tell not [TS]

01:02:44   even a real person [TS]

01:02:45   everybody's just cogs man yeah even [TS]

01:02:47   though Brian right although I i went [TS]

01:02:49   from a plot perspective ask i'm not [TS]

01:02:52   quite sure why O'Brien invest all the [TS]

01:02:55   time he does into inviting Winston at [TS]

01:02:59   and Julia over and talking to them and [TS]

01:03:01   giving them the book and then they get [TS]

01:03:02   him and then they spend all this time [TS]

01:03:04   deconstructing again is are they doing [TS]

01:03:06   it you know he's doing it for fun is [TS]

01:03:07   this to keep O'Brien busy it seems like [TS]

01:03:10   a lot of work to just screw around with [TS]

01:03:13   this one guy who's just rewriting [TS]

01:03:15   newspaper articles it it may just be to [TS]

01:03:17   keep him entertained you know [TS]

01:03:19   yeah well i think i've read it is [TS]

01:03:21   O'Brien is a zealot and this is his [TS]

01:03:23   passion is making minds perfect before [TS]

01:03:26   they shoot them [TS]

01:03:27   yeah and you know here's here's where [TS]

01:03:28   the heat he sees an opportunity because [TS]

01:03:31   I mean it seems like he planted that [TS]

01:03:34   seed himself seven years ago because I [TS]

01:03:36   mean unless unless we're supposed to [TS]

01:03:38   believe that Winston is psychic somehow [TS]

01:03:39   which I doubt O'Brien that's somehow [TS]

01:03:44   spoke to him probably through the Big [TS]

01:03:45   Brother screen saying we will be no one [TS]

01:03:47   beat in the place where never any [TS]

01:03:49   darkness or darkness never falls [TS]

01:03:51   whatever it be exact scripters so yeah [TS]

01:03:54   so so really he has it you know he this [TS]

01:03:57   is this is past time he gets off on it [TS]

01:03:59   you know he's not a serial killer he's a [TS]

01:04:01   serial reshape ER killer the cereal [TS]

01:04:04   grain washer and I think I imagine it's [TS]

01:04:07   his job to to root out these kind of [TS]

01:04:09   people who they think will be [TS]

01:04:11   troublesome because it seems clear at [TS]

01:04:14   the end that they knew everything that [TS]

01:04:17   Winston was doing yeah along every step [TS]

01:04:20   so he had no [TS]

01:04:22   you know real free freedom to do what he [TS]

01:04:26   was doing he thought it was getting away [TS]

01:04:27   with everything he wasn't getting with [TS]

01:04:29   anything and so I think it's just the [TS]

01:04:31   system policing itself and just [TS]

01:04:33   self-perpetuating and then you create a [TS]

01:04:35   resistance I mean that the the whole [TS]

01:04:37   Emmanuel Goldstein thing and and [TS]

01:04:39   creating enemies and creating and then [TS]

01:04:42   showing them being dispatched I mean you [TS]

01:04:44   could argue that that's also what's [TS]

01:04:45   going on here is one way to prevent [TS]

01:04:48   their from being a real resistance is by [TS]

01:04:51   having a lot of thought police acting [TS]

01:04:53   like they're the resistance and sort of [TS]

01:04:55   snagging those interesting people and at [TS]

01:04:57   that point one you either get caught by [TS]

01:04:59   the thought police or to you become so [TS]

01:05:01   petrified that anybody could be the [TS]

01:05:02   thought police that you do nothing at [TS]

01:05:04   which point you know either way there's [TS]

01:05:05   no resistance and then the acts of [TS]

01:05:08   resistance are meaningless anyway so [TS]

01:05:09   like having sex you you're not supposed [TS]

01:05:11   to enjoy sex but it doesn't really [TS]

01:05:13   matter if you do or not but then you [TS]

01:05:14   think you're getting away with something [TS]

01:05:15   that you're not you're just doing with [TS]

01:05:17   the party wants to do anything but [TS]

01:05:18   Winston I think Winston feels that way [TS]

01:05:20   to right i mean he he says that he he [TS]

01:05:24   knows he's going to be killed for this [TS]

01:05:26   he knows he's going to be caught and [TS]

01:05:28   killed he does it anyway [TS]

01:05:30   he also believes that the one thing they [TS]

01:05:31   can't take away from him [TS]

01:05:33   is that what he thinks he's turned his [TS]

01:05:35   hatred of Big Brother and at the end he [TS]

01:05:37   loves big brother [TS]

01:05:38   yep yep although he does I mean he does [TS]

01:05:40   say I he's doing he's doing double think [TS]

01:05:44   at that point right he is he is holding [TS]

01:05:46   within his heart the knowledge that he [TS]

01:05:50   has this other set of thoughts but he's [TS]

01:05:54   not you know but he's also also loving [TS]

01:05:57   big brother i think i found that ending [TS]

01:05:59   a little less concrete than i did when i [TS]

01:06:01   read it as a teenager about about where [TS]

01:06:04   it Winston Smith really leaves off in [TS]

01:06:07   that he loved big brother I don't [TS]

01:06:08   entirely believe that he truly loves big [TS]

01:06:10   brother big brother and that's all in [TS]

01:06:12   that moment I mean maybe it's enough but [TS]

01:06:15   I i don't i don't believe it as much as [TS]

01:06:17   I used to I feel like butt but even if [TS]

01:06:20   he's capable of doing doublethink which [TS]

01:06:22   is what the whole party was your party [TS]

01:06:24   has one anyway yes oh yeah no doubt [TS]

01:06:27   about that [TS]

01:06:28   although there is an earlier you know [TS]

01:06:29   when it ends he has you know he's fallen [TS]

01:06:32   in love with big brother but he hasn't [TS]

01:06:34   been shot yet [TS]

01:06:35   earlier on you here have been like [TS]

01:06:38   thinking to himself about how if you can [TS]

01:06:41   just keep one tiny little corner of [TS]

01:06:43   himself and you know let that corner but [TS]

01:06:47   let that hatred hatred flag fly at the [TS]

01:06:50   moment before he was shot right back of [TS]

01:06:52   the head then then he will have one [TS]

01:06:54   right so it's it is ambiguous and in the [TS]

01:06:56   very very end [TS]

01:06:58   does he manage to to unleash that hatred [TS]

01:07:00   in that fury before he is actually dead [TS]

01:07:03   we don't know yet what it what it [TS]

01:07:04   doesn't do is the book does not end with [TS]

01:07:06   that moment of it doesn't like The [TS]

01:07:09   Sopranos right where it's like is that [TS]

01:07:11   guy coming to kill me or is this just [TS]

01:07:13   another day but that is the position [TS]

01:07:14   that he's in right which is which is [TS]

01:07:16   he's been given this cushy job where [TS]

01:07:19   people that was kind of funny too [TS]

01:07:21   he's on like a subcommittee of the [TS]

01:07:22   subcommittee where people show up [TS]

01:07:24   sometimes they don't show up and [TS]

01:07:25   sometimes the show up and they just [TS]

01:07:26   leave because there's nothing to do and [TS]

01:07:27   there they were given this pointless [TS]

01:07:29   task but it's all a whole bunch of [TS]

01:07:30   people like Winston and they're being [TS]

01:07:32   taken care of and being paid and they [TS]

01:07:34   can kind of do anything because [TS]

01:07:35   essentially they're just be [TS]

01:07:36   rehabilitated and then at some point [TS]

01:07:38   they'll be shot but that's what this [TS]

01:07:41   again [TS]

01:07:42   that seems like a long way to go but [TS]

01:07:44   that's what any other good way to use up [TS]

01:07:45   resources we gotta say is an adaptation [TS]

01:07:48   of 1984 that ended with don't stop [TS]

01:07:50   believin yeah would be amazing could be [TS]

01:07:52   made the what happens inside the [TS]

01:07:55   ministry of love in the narrow wide [TS]

01:07:58   corridors there is just as journey [TS]

01:08:01   playing on a loop on the telescreen [TS]

01:08:03   because that would drive you mad [TS]

01:08:06   yeah oh my god you guys you just [TS]

01:08:08   described my room 101 and see i'd say go [TS]

01:08:12   back and read shooting an elephant it's [TS]

01:08:13   got everything that this book doesn't [TS]

01:08:15   have it's got its got jokes it's funny [TS]

01:08:17   it's makes you think it makes you care [TS]

01:08:20   about the main characters which [TS]

01:08:21   ultimately i think is the biggest [TS]

01:08:24   problem for me with 94 is I die I wasn't [TS]

01:08:29   happy for what happened to Winston Smith [TS]

01:08:31   but I really didn't like him either the [TS]

01:08:34   elephant getting my dystopian future a [TS]

01:08:36   little town he's kind of a blank he's [TS]

01:08:39   you know he's he's there like Erica said [TS]

01:08:42   he's there to kind of switch you through [TS]

01:08:44   the world and so that you can see it all [TS]

01:08:47   because that's what [TS]

01:08:49   gonna do yeah i think i think you're [TS]

01:08:50   right John I think I think this is an [TS]

01:08:53   important book and I think it's good for [TS]

01:08:55   people to read it and be conversing in [TS]

01:08:56   it because it is important but there are [TS]

01:09:00   just those two essays who are way better [TS]

01:09:04   reads really then the 1984 us [TS]

01:09:08   well I i think sometimes you just have [TS]

01:09:10   to read the foundational texts the right [TS]

01:09:12   I agree this is clearly one of the most [TS]

01:09:16   important books of the 20th century [TS]

01:09:18   completely grad it should be read either [TS]

01:09:21   that's why we force people high school [TS]

01:09:22   career was probably not the best time to [TS]

01:09:24   read it [TS]

01:09:26   no i agree i think i think people should [TS]

01:09:28   read it because i think it's i think [TS]

01:09:29   you're a better person after having read [TS]

01:09:32   it in terms of being conversant with [TS]

01:09:34   people's references to it and also to [TS]

01:09:38   think about some of these issues of [TS]

01:09:40   language and how we treat information [TS]

01:09:43   and facts and how in the dangers of [TS]

01:09:47   society gone wrong and directions that [TS]

01:09:51   society has gone in the past and may [TS]

01:09:53   extend to see some of these techniques [TS]

01:09:55   at work in the present day or or in [TS]

01:09:58   things like Max Headroom I mean max [TS]

01:10:00   headroom has a lot of this DNA and oh [TS]

01:10:03   yeah absolutely when they're there [TS]

01:10:04   there's a reason why it's if people are [TS]

01:10:06   buying this book now right is because [TS]

01:10:09   the idea that facts are not facts that [TS]

01:10:12   can be changed at any time and you can [TS]

01:10:14   have your facts and I can have my facts [TS]

01:10:16   and the past doesn't really exist we can [TS]

01:10:18   change it to what we need is a very [TS]

01:10:20   resonant at this moment it is and [TS]

01:10:22   reading this book is it's very chilling [TS]

01:10:25   when you think about now even with the [TS]

01:10:27   technology we have now that this could [TS]

01:10:31   you know facts can change you have to be [TS]

01:10:34   hyper-vigilant and went today Winston [TS]

01:10:38   Smith would just be editing the x is CMS [TS]

01:10:41   wikipedia right or already which BB n92 [TS]

01:10:44   wikipedia to be in The Times a CMS that [TS]

01:10:47   you know the times is what he's editing [TS]

01:10:48   here but yeah he's going to be in a web [TS]

01:10:50   page editing the web pages they won't [TS]

01:10:51   even need to print there's a passage [TS]

01:10:53   about like how they print new copies of [TS]

01:10:55   the old issues and put them out there [TS]

01:10:56   I'm like well we've got that solved now [TS]

01:10:58   you just added the old story [TS]

01:11:00   I mean we had that discussion [TS]

01:11:02   at my old job we have that discussion i [TS]

01:11:04   remember our good pal phillip michael [TS]

01:11:06   said at one point we're not going to do [TS]

01:11:08   you know Soviet revisionism on articles [TS]

01:11:11   if we if we added an article we're going [TS]

01:11:13   to put a big note at the bottom saying [TS]

01:11:14   we added this article and you see that [TS]

01:11:16   but one of the reasons you do that is [TS]

01:11:18   because otherwise you end up in this [TS]

01:11:19   Winston Smith situation where the [TS]

01:11:22   article doesn't say what it used to say [TS]

01:11:24   and that is not that is not good so it's [TS]

01:11:26   much easier to do that these days than [TS]

01:11:29   it was in winston smith stay back in [TS]

01:11:31   nineteen eighty-four track changes [TS]

01:11:32   technical track changes technology is [TS]

01:11:35   advanced least wikipedia has a has an [TS]

01:11:38   added trail that you can see does it huh [TS]

01:11:44   hey brother is reminding you that if you [TS]

01:11:47   donate to wikipedia foundation [TS]

01:11:50   well yeah I i do agree Scott I think [TS]

01:11:52   that's what I that's what my wife is I [TS]

01:11:54   think you should read it because i think [TS]

01:11:55   people should read it I i think it is it [TS]

01:11:57   is foundational and important and today [TS]

01:12:00   I feel like it is it is just as [TS]

01:12:02   important and it is as a communication [TS]

01:12:05   major from you know back in the day I [TS]

01:12:08   like the thoughts about how the way we [TS]

01:12:12   use words influences the way we think [TS]

01:12:14   and how much Italian government could [TS]

01:12:17   decide it was going to invent its own [TS]

01:12:19   language in order to control the thought [TS]

01:12:21   of its citizens citizenry I think that's [TS]

01:12:23   really an interesting idea [TS]

01:12:25   again it's a novel much more of ideas [TS]

01:12:28   then of characters in the end but i [TS]

01:12:30   think it's i think it's worth it worth [TS]

01:12:32   the time not entertaining no not fun not [TS]

01:12:35   fun not fun though is that if all right [TS]

01:12:39   well I think it's time to put this [TS]

01:12:40   episode down the memory hole there [TS]

01:12:43   belongs and I lat were all out of it [TS]

01:12:46   later so that we said completely [TS]

01:12:47   different things one of those but i'd [TS]

01:12:49   like to say goodbye to my gas before [TS]

01:12:51   they are vaporized and we deny their [TS]

01:12:53   existence on this on this planet at all [TS]

01:12:55   David jail or thank you for being here [TS]

01:12:57   thank you all i have to say is apple [TS]

01:13:00   think different [TS]

01:13:01   see she was in the book Scotty thank you [TS]

01:13:05   the pleasure is all mine [TS]

01:13:07   glad you got to read and remember these [TS]

01:13:09   books for a short time they were they [TS]

01:13:12   will soon be forgotten again [TS]

01:13:14   indeed Eric ensign thank you thank you [TS]

01:13:16   you know if I thought corrupt podcasts [TS]

01:13:19   podcasts can also corrupt thought and [TS]

01:13:22   John McCoy from the shores of Oceania [TS]

01:13:24   let's put it that way [TS]

01:13:25   thank you i love you big brother and [TS]

01:13:30   he's been broken and thanks to everybody [TS]

01:13:32   out there for listening listening is [TS]

01:13:34   double plus good we'll see you next time [TS]

01:13:47   [Music] [TS]