0:00:00comfortable number 349 februari 2017
0:00:11welcome back everybody to be
0:00:12uncomfortable i'm your host Jason still
0:00:13and this episode is going to be about
0:00:15two books you may have been assigned in
0:00:20school maybe maybe not
0:00:22and they have become more interesting
0:00:26and relevant lately and I believe in
0:00:28fact copies of one are reportedly sold
0:00:30out in many bookstores whatever
0:00:33bookstore still remain in the United
0:00:34States so we're going to talk about
0:00:36george orwell's 1984 and Ray Bradbury's
0:00:39Fahrenheit 451 two things you know the
0:00:43theme here of course is works with
0:00:44numbers in them that's great
0:00:46clearly so join me i mentioned reading
0:00:49them in school who better to have
0:00:51discussed these commonly assigned works
0:00:54then the hook very host of sophomore lit
0:00:57John McCoy hello hello I want you know I
0:01:00don't even own a parlor wall
0:01:01alright well you know ignorance is
0:01:03strength freedom is slavery Scott
0:01:06mcnulty that's double plus good to be
0:01:08here Jason David jail or we have always
0:01:12been at war with Eastasia that this is
0:01:14true I i guess a it was kind of grim in
0:01:17high school because we had our english
0:01:19class in room 101 ouch that's brutal and
0:01:21Erica and sign is here you might as well
0:01:24jump
0:01:25wait a second now that haha i think i
0:01:30will just go ahead and johanna down the
0:01:32memory hole
0:01:34no don'tdon't you got memory hole after
0:01:37reading these books Jason you felt like
0:01:39you didn't need to just jump down the
0:01:40memory hole well yeah man we are on fire
0:01:43tonight
0:01:43hmm
0:01:45no it's uh let's erase that and make
0:01:48sure it has never happened
0:01:50yeah yeah that was undergoing that
0:01:53wasn't good good so let's start with
0:01:56fahrenheit 451 by Ray Bradbury why don't
0:01:59we start there before we move on to or
0:02:02well these were both published a 44-41
0:02:05published in nineteen fifty three ninety
0:02:06four was published in 1949 so both
0:02:09post-war fairly quickly post-war
0:02:12dystopian visions often assigned in
0:02:17school like I said along with the may be
0:02:19brave new world you can tune him to like
0:02:22an hour and a half of John and I talking
0:02:24about brave new world a sophomore lid we
0:02:27covered that one who is a weird one
0:02:29um about regrets a lot of credit mean
0:02:32he's written so many different kinds of
0:02:35works and he always gets credit for
0:02:36being very kind of lyrical writer
0:02:38beautiful writer it is prose style is is
0:02:42remarkable and i was struck I read
0:02:45fahrenheit 451 at some point but I feel
0:02:47like I probably retained none of it so
0:02:51revisiting it now was kind of fun but I
0:02:53was also struck by the fact that it was
0:02:55not it was not at all what I expected
0:02:59and although i did at several points
0:03:01stop and appreciate how how much effort
0:03:05was being put into the into the
0:03:07pro-style when it would where everybody
0:03:09else is kind of impressions with her of
0:03:11fahrenheit 451 John did you read this
0:03:13first live with this
0:03:14yes this was actually I think maybe my
0:03:16third or fourth episode so I read this
0:03:19about a year ago I I have to say I'm a
0:03:22fan of bradbery's pro-style but this
0:03:24this seems like kind of early days to me
0:03:27like he's he's finding his way along
0:03:30this he famously wrote this book at
0:03:33night on a typewriter in a college
0:03:37university because he didn't have a
0:03:40typewriter of his own and it really does
0:03:43feel kind of like a guy out to prove
0:03:46himself to me and I think there's a lot
0:03:48of really beautiful stuff in here
0:03:49there's a lot of stuff in here that also
0:03:51seems to me like he's approaching with a
0:03:54bit of a chip on his shoulder because
0:03:57he likes to kind of yeah i'll get into
0:04:00this later but Bradbury strikes me as
0:04:03someone who wants to kind of show off a
0:04:04little bit of what he knows you know by
0:04:07pulling out
0:04:08cicero and pulling out matthew arnold
0:04:11and stuff i think but i but I i like it
0:04:13i thought that there were passages that
0:04:16were just beautiful and strange III this
0:04:20time reading through i really loved the
0:04:23depiction of the Hound which doesn't
0:04:26really pay off in in any major way in
0:04:29just how does this ever-present threat
0:04:32but just the idea this crazy biomorphic
0:04:36robot that makes no sense at all
0:04:40I i like that i like it only one
0:04:41Bradbury doesn't even try to make sense
0:04:43got worried about you
0:04:45well I read this book many years ago and
0:04:49of course remember nothing about it now
0:04:51especially if i had read it last year I
0:04:54wouldn't remember anything about it
0:04:55let's be honest except of course the
0:04:58whole lido with a bird books he's a
0:05:00firebender and they burn books that i
0:05:02remembered so I didn't remember that it
0:05:04was broken up into three sections i
0:05:06didn't i didn't remember the Hound
0:05:08though that would stick out in my mind
0:05:10as well but i really like it I mean I
0:05:13thought that it was striking you know
0:05:17the chat the part that struck me the
0:05:19most is when what's-his-name on tog
0:05:22explains or or his boss explains baby
0:05:27explains to to Montague why they burn
0:05:31the books and you know it wasn't a law
0:05:33it was just that you know people we're
0:05:36just looking for faster entertainment
0:05:39and filling up their minds with with
0:05:41nonsense and that just got me to
0:05:43thinking about Twitter and then I got
0:05:45sad
0:05:46stop reading and you can burn Twitter
0:05:49unfortunately can't do that i've i've
0:05:51tried many times to set your computer on
0:05:54fire
0:05:55that's right it's not that right erica
0:05:57was your experience with fahrenheit 451
0:05:59I had never read either one of these
0:06:01books before actually I didn't have to
0:06:03read them in school and I thought maybe
0:06:06I tried reading Fahrenheit 451
0:06:08previously and
0:06:10didn't get through it because I just
0:06:11didn't like it but if that's the case
0:06:13then I really forgot everything about it
0:06:15because I didn't remember anything
0:06:18reading this I mean the only thing I
0:06:20knew was the look you know 451 in
0:06:22burning books like that was that was it
0:06:24I didn't even know the fireman thing so
0:06:26that was that was all new to me and I i
0:06:29agree with John that the the pros is is
0:06:33beautiful but honestly book really kind
0:06:37of angered me because it very much seem
0:06:40like oh he's coming from a place where
0:06:43oh you know people people who like pop
0:06:46culture and people who like you know a
0:06:48literature but looks you know they're
0:06:50going to be the downfall of us all like
0:06:53I'm like that's rich coming from a guy
0:06:54who's known for science fiction which I
0:06:56mean my favorite genre in the world but
0:06:59has been you know throughout history
0:07:00kind of looked and looked down upon
0:07:02so I was just like where do you get off
0:07:05dude and that sort of colored the entire
0:07:07experience for me
0:07:08well I know speed slight spoiler here
0:07:10for my view of it I had a very similar
0:07:12reaction to yours Erica idea
0:07:15David what are your initial sort of
0:07:18fahrenheit 451 reactions
0:07:20yeah that this was another one that we
0:07:22had you know that hundreds of copies
0:07:25sitting around in high school and you'd
0:07:26see them from the various English
0:07:28classes because we had the big open
0:07:30space classrooms with like three classes
0:07:33once it was like you tons of storage and
0:07:35it was one that i wanted to read and and
0:07:37our english classes never read them
0:07:39it was really weird i never got to read
0:07:41either one of these in high school
0:07:42except by choice and so I did I think I
0:07:45did them senior year just for kicks and
0:07:48coming back to it now I i remember the
0:07:52time I had read a lot of Bradbury and
0:07:55this really stood out as very different
0:08:00from a lot of what he was writing at the
0:08:02time and but it's the only thing of
0:08:05those early like you know early fifties
0:08:08Bradbury that that's stuck in my head
0:08:10and I don't know why cause I haven't
0:08:11come back to the other Bradbury which
0:08:13that might be part of it to the only
0:08:15Bradbury I had to read in school was a
0:08:16Martian Chronicles so
0:08:18oh nice not quite the same thing and I
0:08:20really enjoyed that
0:08:22that was a long time ago the only one
0:08:24that we got for street with something
0:08:26wicked this way comes partly because
0:08:28they just wanted to show us the movie
0:08:30movie
0:08:30yeah there's a lot of what we got movies
0:08:33but yeah I i really had this made an
0:08:38impression on me twenties so many years
0:08:41ago and so I had forgotten a lot of it
0:08:45but there were bits and pieces and
0:08:47images that as soon as i got them i
0:08:49could be no almost recite the next page
0:08:52with it which was kind of interesting
0:08:53yeah I my memory of this is is like I
0:08:56said zero i know i read it and and I
0:08:59remember this is what it's like for
0:09:00Scott all the time I realize it's not
0:09:03always like that for me but condition
0:09:05please
0:09:06yes I i know i I'm I'm walk i walked a
0:09:08mile i read a book in your shoes I got
0:09:10no that's why i usually comfortable put
0:09:13on choose to read a book but in this
0:09:15case I did and a yeah i think the the
0:09:19opening is especially lyrical and I had
0:09:22that moment you know it was a two-stage
0:09:24thing with the first stages so here is a
0:09:25writer who is going to show off right i
0:09:27mean i guess you could see it and then I
0:09:29was like he's pretty good at it right
0:09:30now is the next step was like like this
0:09:32the way that this book starts it feels
0:09:35very much like I'm just gonna I'm gonna
0:09:37impress you with my prose a little bit
0:09:39and he does yeah but and there are
0:09:41moments throughout that I i would look
0:09:44at it and be like okay you know I see
0:09:46his skill at this but I was struck by
0:09:50the same thing erica was and if you look
0:09:53at Bradbury statements about Fahrenheit
0:09:56this is really interesting so we lumped
0:09:57the this these two books together and
0:10:01there is this mid-twentieth-century
0:10:02books that are against totalitarianism
0:10:06and censorship and other other kind of
0:10:10similarly terrible things and they get
0:10:13lumped together and i find it funny
0:10:15because having read fahrenheit 451 and
0:10:17then seeing that bread for himself
0:10:18admits this I feel like they kind of
0:10:21don't fit because fahrenheit 451 to me
0:10:24feels very much like it's about it's a
0:10:26satire about how if people don't read
0:10:30the world will be crappy not that
0:10:34totalitarian
0:10:35governments will come and keep people
0:10:37from reading in order to have them beam
0:10:40you know how in order to exert their
0:10:42power over them here it's very much more
0:10:44like a kind of kind of elitist a
0:10:48snobbish turning you know it's an attack
0:10:52on television and popular culture in
0:10:54general and people don't read like they
0:10:56used to and leads the the society in
0:10:59fahrenheit 451 into these terrible
0:11:00places it's almost like the you know the
0:11:03the the censorship is a just comes out
0:11:07of the fact that nobody's reading
0:11:08anymore it's not because of the state
0:11:11and so I was kind of taken aback by that
0:11:13because that was not what i was
0:11:14expecting and I guess I also didn't
0:11:17particularly appreciate that message the
0:11:19underlying conflict me that's weird
0:11:22about this book is a Bradbury is warning
0:11:25against political correctness raisuli in
0:11:29a time before they had that language
0:11:32because he says the danger that people
0:11:34saw in books was that they were
0:11:37contradictory that they confuse people
0:11:39you know they hurt people's feelings
0:11:41yep and the troubles people felt
0:11:43marginalized people felt excluded by
0:11:45great works of literature there weren't
0:11:48written to them or that said truths that
0:11:50they didn't agree with so culture had to
0:11:52be dumbed down and made polite and made
0:11:55good for everybody and it's kinda spooky
0:11:58when you have to see how that's actually
0:12:00played out in the actual arena of how
0:12:03political correctness gets used as a as
0:12:05a casual
0:12:06the other thing I would say is that it's
0:12:08a very romantic book about the power of
0:12:11words and it strikes strikes me that
0:12:15that comes from the place that bribery
0:12:18is coming from which is he's an
0:12:19autodidact he's a guy who never went to
0:12:23college but he wanted to show the world
0:12:25he was an educated person and the the
0:12:29thing that I think is so funny is the
0:12:31scene where he starts reading poetry to
0:12:34his wife milled at Mildred and her
0:12:37friends to try and show them what has
0:12:39been lost the unplug their screen right
0:12:41right and the poem he chooses is matthew
0:12:44arnold Dover Beach now this is the
0:12:47this is I'm a great fan of people just
0:12:50reading literature and and you know
0:12:53to hell with whether you know where it
0:12:54comes from go ahead and read it and see
0:12:56if you can connect with it but matthew
0:12:57arnold is not something you just pick up
0:12:59and have got a reaction to you know it's
0:13:03like I keep that in my wallet come on
0:13:07and if you've never experienced anything
0:13:08remotely like that before why would
0:13:10those words in that order make you
0:13:12suddenly break down and cry i just did
0:13:14not buy head for a second yet maybe if
0:13:17there if there were a poem that would
0:13:19make me break down and cry it is not
0:13:20differ beach
0:13:22no you're right and your age on it made
0:13:24me feel icky to when I got to that point
0:13:25because I mean basically what he says
0:13:27and this may even be in there
0:13:28specifically I can't I don't have a
0:13:30something to quote here directly but
0:13:32it's basically like well you know what
0:13:34the problem was that you'd write a book
0:13:35and the women would complain or you
0:13:37write a book and the Negroes would
0:13:38complain and so they had to make these
0:13:40dumb books that nobody complained about
0:13:41in that ruined everything i'm like yeah
0:13:43I that is not a good
0:13:45no no no I mean if it's just for being a
0:13:49guy who is thinks he's so smart
0:13:51the the idea that that the solution to
0:13:53that is to write books that are more and
0:13:56more you know bland is ridiculous I mean
0:14:00I think it's become clear in this day
0:14:02and age of the the answer to that is if
0:14:05more books by all kinds of different
0:14:07people it be
0:14:08I love the idea why i hate i'm using
0:14:11loving quotes that the idea that his his
0:14:14thought is that yes it's it's the you
0:14:15know it's the white men that should be
0:14:17producing all of these books and because
0:14:20of that we need to think about the
0:14:22minorities that was that just kept
0:14:24coming up over and over again we need to
0:14:25think about it already is right and give
0:14:27basically he's saying we need to give
0:14:30them things that are not going to upset
0:14:32them
0:14:33there's never any thought that all
0:14:35perhaps these quote-unquote minorities I
0:14:37mean women not exactly minority could be
0:14:40producing content for themselves
0:14:42producing things from their own point of
0:14:44view that's that's just not something
0:14:46that ever enters into his head as a
0:14:48narrator of this book even though the
0:14:50walls and by the way these are both
0:14:52books with a with the feature
0:14:54essentially television large television
0:14:58as part of the premise with
0:15:00which is kind of fun in fahrenheit 451
0:15:02there are just walls that our television
0:15:05screens and a guy Montag's wife is is a
0:15:08getting on him about how she wants the
0:15:10fourth wall to be a screen to so they'll
0:15:12be it's kind of like virtual reality
0:15:14that basically will be inside a box of
0:15:17television and so the characters on the
0:15:19shows are watching will be all around
0:15:20them and so as a as a satire of you know
0:15:26almost like reality TV and all that I I
0:15:29can see it i'm not sure if I'm like
0:15:31totally behind it but i was i was struck
0:15:33by the fact that it what it's not it is
0:15:36it's politics are very different from
0:15:38something like 1984 it's politics are
0:15:41yes a celebration of writing and
0:15:43decrying about of a kind of a coarsening
0:15:46culture that does not appreciate great
0:15:48art which is not at all the same kind of
0:15:52story is something that you get in 94 or
0:15:54something like brave new world and it's
0:15:56it's also bad government overreach to I
0:15:59mean this he was writing this after the
0:16:01whole house of unemployed american path
0:16:04house on American Activities Committee
0:16:06was going on and you know this was kind
0:16:11of a reaction to that the the
0:16:12anti-intellectualism of that and so so
0:16:16yeah it's it's about the power of words
0:16:19where 1984 a lot of your other dystopian
0:16:22novels are about the crushing power of
0:16:26words maybe or the the destruction of
0:16:28the words whereas this is literally
0:16:30destroying the books but the words will
0:16:33save you on in both emotions these books
0:16:35there are there are no illicit materials
0:16:38that are found in and and red and that
0:16:41you know there are there are acts of
0:16:42rebellion and things like that they do
0:16:44have they do definitely have things in
0:16:45common and of course in this case in
0:16:49both books actually it's a
0:16:50representative it's a functionary in
0:16:52this totalitarian society who it becomes
0:16:55disaffected and partakes of the band
0:16:58material i mean they do have things in
0:17:00common even though they're coming from
0:17:01pretty different sorts of places i think
0:17:04Bradbury is still hopeful where Orwell
0:17:07is absolutely not no it's debatable
0:17:10there might be a little help there but
0:17:11we'll get we'll get to that the other
0:17:13thing that's funny about this book for
0:17:14me and it struck me reading through both
0:17:17times is there's there's a lot of stuff
0:17:19that's just kind of tacked on a because
0:17:23Bradbury I don't think kind of could
0:17:25figure out what he wanted to do the
0:17:28whole into this book is if focuses on
0:17:30the fact that there's been rumors of war
0:17:33going on throughout the entire book they
0:17:35they just keep handing a war happening
0:17:37war happening and then suddenly the city
0:17:39that he's in has just blown up and
0:17:41they're like oh well we guess we better
0:17:43go back and rebuild everything of a kind
0:17:45of trash back into the civilian it's
0:17:47sort of like where did that come from
0:17:50if the end is really weird like it
0:17:52becomes a chase scene sort of and then
0:17:56there's the he finds the like the hobo
0:17:58camp of college professors and then the
0:18:02city gets nuked and the end
0:18:05yeah it's like that's the happy ending
0:18:08yeah the the happy ending is the fact
0:18:09that civilization has just been doomed
0:18:11and now we can rebuild it in and not
0:18:15internet in a new way in the old way
0:18:17that's right well the stupid people are
0:18:19in the city and there's I so that's it
0:18:22burned like books exactly as they should
0:18:25be and you know Orwell was writing a
0:18:28straight novel where is Bradbury's
0:18:30reading pulp stories in the fellas and
0:18:32then threading them together and that's
0:18:35part of why this is in parts and part of
0:18:37why it's a little disjointed and put
0:18:39away just start suddenly becomes a chase
0:18:41and then suddenly ends it's like oh I
0:18:43hit I hit my number where the editor
0:18:45said it was good and that's it and he
0:18:47just kind of left to reach my workout
0:18:48i'm just thinking of the parallels now
0:18:50which I didn't really think before
0:18:51because in addition to him being a
0:18:53functionary you've got his his a boss
0:18:55who basically kind of like lets him in
0:18:58on the secrets and says it's okay and
0:19:00you know in this case Montague boss says
0:19:03you know everything happens every
0:19:04fireman you just bring the book back you
0:19:06get 24 hours it's not a big deal you
0:19:09know we'll we'll make it work and that
0:19:10that's similar to a point to what
0:19:13happens in 1984 the idea that there i
0:19:16mean it is a clever like elevator pitch
0:19:20which is in the future there are firemen
0:19:22but they start fire
0:19:24that's right that's right that's that's
0:19:26clever and he's and he's troubled and
0:19:28the Hound is an interesting character
0:19:29there's a lot of there's a lot of
0:19:30interesting stuff here the big screens
0:19:32and the the the the people who are
0:19:34obsessed with with television
0:19:37essentially although they're in Eric I'm
0:19:39sure that you have similar feelings to
0:19:41me it's like it is a very gendered
0:19:43portrayal it is
0:19:44oh the women with their soap operas are
0:19:46nattering on and they're so annoying and
0:19:48it's it you know it's not it's it's it's
0:19:51the women who are seen as as kind of
0:19:53throwing away their time on the on their
0:19:55on their stories
0:19:56yeah every single woman in the entire
0:19:58story is is that basically and then the
0:20:02men are either the firemen or the old
0:20:05guy who invents this magical machine and
0:20:08and loves books or a whole bunch of a
0:20:10hobo college professors I don't remember
0:20:12any women being in that group yeah other
0:20:14than Clarice is the only exception right
0:20:16who who is the young woman who you talk
0:20:19to him in both novels though it's a
0:20:21woman who's going to save you know the
0:20:23or or at least lift the spirits of the
0:20:26main character Clarice and Julia are
0:20:28parallel rhesus is really i mean i hate
0:20:30to use the word you know Matt Pixie
0:20:33dream girl but please is ambiguous
0:20:34exactly she asleep yeah prototype which
0:20:38is why I didn't quit her with women
0:20:40because she's a girl for sure Julia
0:20:42kinda is too will get there but I mean
0:20:44they're both kinda like that but yeah I
0:20:45mean they're not Katniss or anything if
0:20:47you see the movie day is Truffaut makes
0:20:51a couple of really good choices and one
0:20:53of them is he makes Clarice like 20 in
0:20:56her twenties she's a she's a
0:20:58schoolteacher and so that takes away a
0:21:00lot of kind of goofiness of Montag's
0:21:03infatuation with this teen girl
0:21:05the other thing that did Truffaut does
0:21:08is at the end of the book when montage
0:21:11makes it to the society of people who
0:21:14memorized the books the people they're
0:21:16actually sit there and memorize the
0:21:18books there's a wonderful sequence of
0:21:20the end of the movie where you see these
0:21:21people repeating the words of great
0:21:23literature out loud and they're trying
0:21:25to commit this to memory and it-it-it
0:21:28seen as an arduous and a very precarious
0:21:30task you can you feel like oh any second
0:21:33they're going to make a mistake
0:21:35you know Hamlet is going to suddenly
0:21:36become hamblett or something and it but
0:21:40but in the book it's all kind of like
0:21:42waved away like they say we've we've
0:21:44discovered a magical way to make people
0:21:46memorize books
0:21:47yeah I guess he's trying to get to like
0:21:49all tradition and connect that to books
0:21:51and say that this is all part of this
0:21:53long chain in human society but you know
0:21:55the irony here is if you go back to
0:21:57ancient sources the ancient Greeks were
0:22:00very distrustful of people starting to
0:22:02learn to write because they said now
0:22:04you're gonna lose your memory and that's
0:22:06terrible you know we're going like the
0:22:07idea of people writing down Homer
0:22:09because before then people memorize
0:22:11Homer I am kinda down on this but there
0:22:13are some moments in here that are pretty
0:22:15spectacular and the one that really
0:22:16worked for me is mon togs wife's
0:22:19attempted suicide because it's told so
0:22:23matter-of-factly and and and she just so
0:22:27she swallowed all the pills again and he
0:22:29called someone and they basically said
0:22:30like plumbers to the house to pump her
0:22:34stomach and layer down she doesn't get
0:22:36taken away and then the next day she
0:22:38doesn't even remember or think about it
0:22:40and you get the sense that this is
0:22:42something that she just she does and I
0:22:44what I like about that is not only is it
0:22:45super creepy but there's this
0:22:47undercurrent that like these people are
0:22:49miserable but won't let themselves
0:22:51believe they're miserable and their
0:22:53society is very helpful in not letting
0:22:55them die so they're just sort of stuck
0:22:57forever in this
0:22:58yeah like the plumber guys are like you
0:23:00know we've got three more calls like
0:23:01this we gotta go buddy it's not just her
0:23:03and then when he says what happens if
0:23:05she doesn't get any better and he's
0:23:07there i will just call us again will
0:23:08show up again
0:23:09yeah yeah so weird thats that really
0:23:12stuck with me that was a that was a a
0:23:14nice creepy moment of light because you
0:23:16know on the surface it is this sort of
0:23:18Sonny gave Sonny scene and then but
0:23:22beneath the surface it's just like oh
0:23:23yeah she tried to kill herself again
0:23:26will you know just call the guys and
0:23:27we'll fix it up until next time to his
0:23:30credit that was that was one of the
0:23:31moments that I enjoyed the most pros
0:23:34wise because that is one of the first
0:23:36times that we experience the jets flying
0:23:37overhead as well right you know he
0:23:39realizes when his wife is done at the
0:23:41same time like you know the sky is split
0:23:43by this the scream of a jacket or
0:23:45whatever it is and
0:23:46it was it was it was a beautiful moment
0:23:48in a lot of ways and then and then
0:23:50immediately went right back to being
0:23:52completely matter of fact and it's just
0:23:54these guys with their weird snake to to
0:23:56pump her stomach
0:23:57the thing I like the best was when favor
0:23:59spent like three pages explaining to
0:24:02Montague this exciting little earpiece
0:24:04he was going to give him because you
0:24:06because Montague was so blown away by
0:24:09the idea that there was this radio
0:24:11receiver that was going to stick into
0:24:12his ear and he lives in a world where
0:24:14they have freaking the hounds running
0:24:16around the place but this is what blows
0:24:19him away
0:24:20yeah it's weird it's a weird book there
0:24:22there there are things that i like but
0:24:24um well it's not sort of what i was
0:24:26expecting and I i don't think i would
0:24:29say that I i like the name on tagged
0:24:31isn't even like he's barely a character
0:24:33I mean we did we get his inner life but
0:24:36it didn't feel very lively which I guess
0:24:38is kind of part of the point because you
0:24:40know he's been downtrodden by his
0:24:42society but I feel like instead of you
0:24:46as his awakening into understanding that
0:24:48no books are important instead of that
0:24:50making him more interesting what it
0:24:54actually was the opposite i got more and
0:24:56more annoyed with him as his thinks when
0:24:58I was just like I don't care about you I
0:25:01don't care about the things that you
0:25:02think I'd I was more interested in favor
0:25:05like I wanted to see what he was gonna
0:25:07do but right now is just off to st.
0:25:08Louis or whatever and we didn't get to
0:25:10watch it is i mean it is a weird I guess
0:25:13it goes hand-in-hand with bribery's of
0:25:15take on this being a cultural kind of
0:25:18degradation that happens when society
0:25:20becomes disconnected from you know art
0:25:24and other things that are the roots of
0:25:25society and so it just becomes this
0:25:27materialistic you know it's just it's
0:25:31just fast cars and everybody's violent
0:25:34and that's all that that's all that is
0:25:35in the society is cars and and talking
0:25:37to your TV's in every single bribery
0:25:39short story someone dies
0:25:41I don't know what he's complaining about
0:25:43I mean he's the guy everyone who writes
0:25:45who's really running violator every
0:25:48yeah finances inside us all the only
0:25:51sort of the actual structure that you
0:25:55get about society is is the fireman like
0:25:57you don't hear a whole lot more about
0:25:59about other stuff you know you got the
0:26:00hound and the other police sort of
0:26:02chasing him but it it's implied that
0:26:05it's not a big deal to just run somebody
0:26:07over with a car because if somebody in a
0:26:09car turns around and to try to take a
0:26:11second run and Montague's he's trying to
0:26:13get away because they missing the first
0:26:15time so like they in and being shot is
0:26:18it's not a big deal because that happens
0:26:19to a bunch of people in the high school
0:26:21so it seems like there's probably not
0:26:24not a whole lot in the way of
0:26:26consequences for that sort of thing and
0:26:28then somewhere toward the end you get
0:26:30him or still one of the characters
0:26:32talking about how how this must be why
0:26:36other countries like outside of of their
0:26:39country hate them so much and that was
0:26:41one of the things that really made me
0:26:42think about the United States of today
0:26:44because I having since i moved to Canada
0:26:48I've realized that the sort of i want to
0:26:51say anti-american but just like home
0:26:53OMG America sentiment is but even
0:26:57stronger than I thought it was living in
0:26:59the States
0:27:00well I I still maintain that it is good
0:27:03book i liked it mostly because i think
0:27:05it appeals to my inner elitism and I
0:27:08think that more people should read books
0:27:10about has bad it is surely this out but
0:27:13it looks like you're gonna let your
0:27:15shiny gold flag shine don't hide your
0:27:20elitism under a bushel I I won't but you
0:27:23know either there was a study that just
0:27:24came out a little while ago that you
0:27:26know american adults like some
0:27:29ridiculous number have not read one book
0:27:31in the last year and that just blows my
0:27:33mind
0:27:33we have got to get political but we have
0:27:35a president who just does not like to
0:27:36read books which is struggling to meet I
0:27:40just feel like it's important and Ray
0:27:42Bradbury is writing to someone like me
0:27:44who feels like you know for every decade
0:27:47societies crumbling because not enough
0:27:50people read it's a perennial problem
0:27:51which I guess means it's not really a
0:27:53problem
0:27:54but I don't like it the incomparable is
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0:29:47alright let's let's talk let's go to the
0:29:50airstrip one and talk about nineteen
0:29:54eighty-four George Orwell is classic I I
0:30:01was telling my wife managed to never
0:30:03read this book i guess like Erica and
0:30:06she still has read it and I I
0:30:08said to her in the past i said to her
0:30:09again I i think it's worth a read
0:30:12I think it is one of the great books of
0:30:15the 20th century and I think there's a
0:30:18lot of great stuff in it
0:30:19I had no memory of it either other than
0:30:21little flashes i read this too young i
0:30:24would say I read this in 1984 but I was
0:30:28in eighth grade then and I think that
0:30:30that I could not understand a lot of the
0:30:35stuff i think i could have used another
0:30:36three or four years honestly and I would
0:30:39have appreciated a much more but i
0:30:41really appreciated going back as an
0:30:42adult to read it
0:30:43obviously this is set in a in a
0:30:45dystopian future that is now past I like
0:30:47that Star Trek does that a lot to its
0:30:48great the eighties oh my god it's the
0:30:51far future where uh where there's a
0:30:53totality is it the eighties we don't
0:30:55know he doesn't even know it probably is
0:30:57like 84 85 but he doesn't really
0:30:59actually even know what year it is it is
0:31:01a totalitarian government in the
0:31:03super-state one of three in the world of
0:31:05Virginia and airstrip one is the former
0:31:07great britain and he's in London winston
0:31:10smith and he works for the the party the
0:31:13English socialist party in stock and ma
0:31:16he works for uh hehe is a redactor
0:31:20essentially he revises old newspaper
0:31:22articles to reflect whatever the current
0:31:25political winds are and so if somebody
0:31:30is made to disappear or if if they cut
0:31:34the chocolate ration he might have to
0:31:35rewrite articles to make them seem like
0:31:38the chocolate ration was always that and
0:31:40it wasn't cut or perhaps was so low that
0:31:42that that the cut seems like a an
0:31:44increase and that's his job and he's a
0:31:47dissident and and doesn't really believe
0:31:49in all of this and has carved out a
0:31:50little hole in his apartment where he
0:31:52cannot be seen by the ever-present
0:31:54telescreens which our TV screens that
0:31:55cannot be shut off and can look at you
0:31:58two and which is very max headroom
0:32:01actually uh yeah so that that's a that
0:32:05is 1984 it is a it I really well
0:32:09did I enjoy reading it isn't 1984 meant
0:32:12to be enjoyed
0:32:13I suspect not but I appreciated the the
0:32:16work of it overall whatever whatever
0:32:17else is history with this thing Erica
0:32:20you knew
0:32:21never read it before no i didnt the ID
0:32:24this book was not one that was required
0:32:26in for any of the classes that I like in
0:32:29my school so it wasn't even around that
0:32:31other classes were reading it I just
0:32:32kind of knew of it because you know it's
0:32:35been part of the part of society for so
0:32:37long kind of slipped the phrase big
0:32:40brother is watching is something that
0:32:41churn even I I knew even before Big
0:32:44Brother the reality TV show ya where
0:32:47Bradbury shakes his fist somewhere
0:32:49John reality baby thank you thank you
0:32:52are well for for that show you know ya
0:32:55huh
0:32:56but yeah so it was it was interesting to
0:32:58watch you know I think if watch read huh
0:33:00watch the pages was just why right but
0:33:03the thing is i did watch the the John
0:33:05Hurt version of the movie as well and
0:33:07let's let's not talk about no yeah I i
0:33:11do agree that it is a good book it is
0:33:13not I I didn't enjoy it either but I
0:33:17think I don't know when
0:33:19laughs enjoy still weird word to use
0:33:22because i think that it if you get
0:33:26something out of it that sort of counts
0:33:28as enjoyment on on some level and i'm
0:33:31not even sure I got that out of it i
0:33:32think it's a very well done book is
0:33:34doing what it try it was trying to do
0:33:36fairly solidly but it's not a thing that
0:33:39I'm like I'm I guess I'm kind of glad i
0:33:41read it once but but i don't know at
0:33:44this point in history it was much more
0:33:46difficult to read than i expected it to
0:33:47me and I expected it to be difficult i
0:33:49feel like there's a basic cultural
0:33:51literacy though about it but there's so
0:33:53much refers to it that knowing the
0:33:56details of it i think is helpful in just
0:33:58how people refer to it because it is it
0:34:02is such a part of me has such a currency
0:34:04and in so many different terms that we
0:34:06use now I feel like it's got gain that
0:34:08cultural status that like of the Mona
0:34:10Lisa where you don't even you can't
0:34:12experience the Mona Lisa you are just
0:34:13experience the experience of CM the mona
0:34:16lisa station so it's kind of like you
0:34:17know you don't really need to read 1984
0:34:19to reference 1984 understand i think
0:34:22reading it makes it much better
0:34:25whatever that means right you you
0:34:27understand the full importance but i'm
0:34:29sure that you should read the books you
0:34:30should be doing that is my bold step
0:34:32looks best when red is what you're
0:34:34saying
0:34:34got it did you remember this book uh I
0:34:38remember reading it I remember account
0:34:41that I knew nothing of what happened i
0:34:45remember the telescreens and big brother
0:34:48always watching but that was about all i
0:34:50read i remembered i remember too happy
0:34:54ending and there's not a happy ending in
0:34:55this book so I don't know where I came
0:34:56from with that but I don't know he seems
0:34:58pretty happy at the end he looked big
0:35:01brother us it was great
0:35:03it's a love story John what's your from
0:35:061984 experience
0:35:08oh I I read this in high school I wasn't
0:35:11it was assigned to me we had animal farm
0:35:14assigned to us by red 1984 i was reading
0:35:17a bunch of the air air how you mention
0:35:20they vote in the early eighties for
0:35:23these really grungy dystopias i think it
0:35:27was something about the Reagan years era
0:35:29that did that but i read this i read a
0:35:32clockwork orange or red all these things
0:35:34and at the time it seemed funnier to me
0:35:38is it as a high school student i guess
0:35:40here yeah I thought I was too cool for
0:35:43school and kind of cynical as i read it
0:35:45now it's just kind of unrelentingly
0:35:48depressing and it's so it's so
0:35:51oppressive and/or will makes this point
0:35:55very early on and i think the other
0:35:59thing that has happened in the time
0:36:00since then as I've read a lot of
0:36:02Orwell's essays and I think that he's a
0:36:06better a serious than he is a novelist
0:36:09and certainly a lot of the ideas that he
0:36:11covers in 1984 are covered in his essay
0:36:15politics in the English language which
0:36:17is one of the greatest asset is written
0:36:19in English the other greatest SI being
0:36:22shooting an elephant which is also by
0:36:24george orwell and-and-and there he's
0:36:27allowed to be a little bit more direct a
0:36:30little bit more
0:36:30he's not playing with irony the way that
0:36:33he is in this book and so it's a little
0:36:35bit more
0:36:37he's a little more decent to the reader
0:36:39this is kind of I I agree
0:36:42you can't judge a book on whether or not
0:36:45you it brings you enjoyment in the sense
0:36:47that you feel a thrill
0:36:50there are certainly points to this book
0:36:51where you feel chills or you profoundly
0:36:56disturbed and there are profoundly
0:36:59starkly beautiful images but there's
0:37:04also a lot of that xserve expositional
0:37:08writing where people spend a lot of time
0:37:10saying as you know this this is the
0:37:14society we live in
0:37:15but let me explain it to you anyway let
0:37:17me read you this book that explains
0:37:19everything
0:37:19see that that's something that you can
0:37:20tell that he is an SAS and this actually
0:37:23reminded me to of brave new world which
0:37:24which john i read for sophomore lid on
0:37:2774 you haven't done an episode about
0:37:28that for sophomore let ya know it's
0:37:31pretty striking while the iron is hot
0:37:32you just read it you don't have to read
0:37:34together on the both of those books
0:37:37basically stopped for you to read
0:37:39another work that is going to be quoted
0:37:41at length and I always felt like that
0:37:43was kind of a a cheap trick that that
0:37:46it's basically like here's this book by
0:37:50Manuel goldsteins you should read it and
0:37:52then like we proceeded to read large
0:37:54passenger but yes I was gonna say you
0:37:56know I that Johnny I believe you that he
0:37:59is a better SAS know but you know I've
0:38:01never read any of his essays oh wait yes
0:38:03I have this right it looks like you know
0:38:06you know yeah and that was that stuff
0:38:08when he's like okay as a novelist she's
0:38:10like throwing up his hands like all
0:38:11right I'm gonna have a marine SI and
0:38:14here it is that was kind of the point
0:38:16that I sort of just jumped off in this
0:38:18now i really like the topic I ain't
0:38:20enjoyed the beginning because i was sort
0:38:22of you know feeling out the edges of
0:38:24this world from the perspective of the
0:38:27main character and I think thought that
0:38:28was very skillfully done it was really
0:38:31interesting to discover the way the
0:38:33world worked piece by piece as it was
0:38:36being revealed to us through the eyes of
0:38:37this Porsche lobby character but as we
0:38:41went on this Porsche lobby character
0:38:43that kind of same as in Fahrenheit 451
0:38:45I didn't really care that much about the
0:38:49character and yes again i'm sure it was
0:38:51it is a part of that world you don't
0:38:53have all that much in her life because
0:38:54you've been so stamped down from the
0:38:56outside but it there was real
0:38:59nothing once I've kind of gotten an idea
0:39:02of the world he inhabited nothing that
0:39:04sort of drew me to him and then we get
0:39:07this female character who I'm excited by
0:39:09it first and then realize oh no she's
0:39:11not really treated hell that well either
0:39:12from the point of view of the of the
0:39:15writer she doesn't she doesn't care
0:39:16about anything she wants to get laid
0:39:18okay well so I just and then there's the
0:39:21essay and at that point I was just like
0:39:22I don't care anymore excusing the rest
0:39:24of this sucker i can see both sides of
0:39:26it right because yes on one level
0:39:28she's just having sex with people but on
0:39:30another level i would say this is her
0:39:32act of rebellion against the state she's
0:39:34forced to be in the anti-sex League you
0:39:36know all these things and this is her
0:39:38act of rebellion which was good i I
0:39:40thought that was cool and then you know
0:39:42it but then and then she falls in love
0:39:44with him which I have mixed feelings
0:39:45about you know love love can be great
0:39:47but then that becomes her only defining
0:39:50character characteristic for the rest of
0:39:52the book she doesn't really care about
0:39:54rebelling against Big Brother she's only
0:39:56doing what she's doing
0:39:57so that she can be close to the man that
0:39:58she has fallen in love with after all
0:40:01that sexy show so sharp edged up to the
0:40:04up to that point and then she just kind
0:40:06of recedes into the background right
0:40:07after that you
0:40:09yeah David I didn't give you a chance to
0:40:11weigh in here
0:40:13yeah I i actually had the commemorative
0:40:151984 edition right when the sort of
0:40:18blocky chunky letter up lettering on the
0:40:20cover when i read in 8th grade and and
0:40:23but i but i never got through it until
0:40:251988-89 in senior year and yeah it
0:40:32it reads really differently when your
0:40:33teen because you know at that point you
0:40:37know I'd been reading a lot of science
0:40:38fiction but so I appreciate the world
0:40:40building and you're kinda like all these
0:40:43cool slogans oh that's a clever
0:40:44combination of words no doublethink ya
0:40:46ando mini true
0:40:49whoo that's great and and then you start
0:40:52getting into the the characters and the
0:40:54story you're like okay that's you know
0:40:56and then you hit the essay
0:40:58yeah and now it's the you know the world
0:41:02building is still very good but now you
0:41:06see after 25 some 30 years
0:41:11you see the the combinations of words
0:41:14and the double think the inn in real
0:41:17life and you're going oh that's not
0:41:18really clever with world-building that's
0:41:20actually happening
0:41:21Oh God and it's much darker and more
0:41:25depressing so I mean it i would say it
0:41:28is a great book i can't say i like it
0:41:31but it's a great book you have to you
0:41:33should read it one of the nice things in
0:41:35that a.m animal farm episode of
0:41:37sophomore lid which is good i recommend
0:41:39it to people it's a it's a really fun
0:41:40episode
0:41:41although John you and Elliot sort of
0:41:44spent a lot of time like not talking
0:41:46about the book before perfect talking
0:41:48about the book but the point that I
0:41:50think Elliot made in that episode is
0:41:51george orwell eric blair was a socialist
0:41:55but he was also waste a pretty strident
0:41:57anti Stalinist and that a lot of his
0:42:02work is commentary on you know it's not
0:42:06just about like future peril it's about
0:42:08the Soviet Union and about the way that
0:42:10information is controlled in the Soviet
0:42:12Union and so great you know that that is
0:42:14you know some of what he's doing here is
0:42:16not is not a warning about the future
0:42:20it's a warning about his present and I
0:42:23think that's kind of one interesting way
0:42:25of looking at it also getting back to
0:42:28him being an SAS yeah you can really
0:42:30read this whole book as being somebody
0:42:34who is really interested in the idea of
0:42:37a new language that suppresses nuanced
0:42:40and that you can control your society by
0:42:42coming up with a new language and that
0:42:44he kind of built a whole story around
0:42:45that because at its core I think
0:42:48sometimes the Newspeak is what this is
0:42:51kind of about and the fact that it ends
0:42:53with a lengthy essay about Newspeak that
0:42:57is interestingly enough and this is the
0:42:58glimmer of hope it is written kind of
0:43:01from an in world perspective word is
0:43:02referred to as something that happened
0:43:04in the past but it's written standard
0:43:06English so the suggestion is that in the
0:43:09end this regime did fall and that
0:43:12English standard English returned
0:43:14because of that sa but I but you know
0:43:18that aside it sort of feels to me like
0:43:20the essay was really wanted to do
0:43:23andrea was a way to explore those
0:43:25concepts about what if we had you know
0:43:28double plus good and I'm good and you
0:43:30know I and and boiling the language down
0:43:32to this tiny controlled set of words one
0:43:35that was kind of thing at the time right
0:43:37taking a thought experiment and building
0:43:39it out and then turning it into a novel
0:43:41and say okay what would we do in this
0:43:44situation and and so it's not written
0:43:46like like a prose craftsman like coming
0:43:50up with a great plot and prose
0:43:51everything it's it's how can we tell
0:43:54this lesson through fiction and you know
0:43:58the Inklings doodle did it a little bit
0:44:00and r and then it a little bit
0:44:04there's I mean there's literally like a
0:44:05hundred and fifty page segment of Atlas
0:44:07Shrugged that is a radio speech that
0:44:09supposedly takes an hour and like no
0:44:12that's about five days I i think that
0:44:14it's worth reading this book simply for
0:44:17this very reason because today we're so
0:44:21steeped in server a post Raymond Carver
0:44:24world where in the literary world at
0:44:26least the the pinnacle of literature is
0:44:30writing convincing characters and
0:44:32writing convincing dialogue and having
0:44:34this and run these moments that feel
0:44:37real and we've got we've gotten kind of
0:44:39so into that and we forgot that there
0:44:41are other ways to write books and
0:44:43certainly I think the mid-century
0:44:45everyone was writing
0:44:47ideabooks I mean with brave new world
0:44:50was ideabook this is an idea but yeah a
0:44:52lot of science fiction around this time
0:44:54are ideabooks but a lot of major works
0:44:56of literature are were ideabooks too i
0:44:59think what's interesting when you when
0:45:01you mentioned that Jason that the last
0:45:03essay they're being written serve in
0:45:06World the about the Newspeak it actually
0:45:11reminded me why I was reading it through
0:45:12of the fact the appendix to the
0:45:15handmaid's tale which is also lets it
0:45:18was sort of this ostensibly scholarly
0:45:21look back on the book you've just read
0:45:23and it kind of it has very strict a
0:45:26strange effect where your kind of
0:45:28invited to look at this whole book that
0:45:30you've wrapped in now as well we don't
0:45:32know whether this was true or not or
0:45:33whether this was a work of propaganda
0:45:36or what it was and up till now you've
0:45:38been very deeply invested in the the
0:45:41characters and and that's a lot of
0:45:44people point to that ending of the book
0:45:45is though it's something kind of a Miss
0:45:48misstep almost i don't know i don't want
0:45:51to read that book but it had that same
0:45:54effect at the end of 94 of kind of
0:45:58popping me out of this world and making
0:46:00me look at everything as you know ideas
0:46:05and stand-ins for you know Stalinism or
0:46:08whatever it's funny you mentioned
0:46:10margaret atwood right because one of the
0:46:12pieces that i read in prepping for this
0:46:14podcast isn't is an essay by margaret
0:46:17atwood about that final essay in 1984 so
0:46:20i think was definitely hiring
0:46:21influential to her
0:46:23perhaps what even when writing
0:46:24handmaid's tale and she she's one of
0:46:26those people who believes that you know
0:46:28you need to read it as a not just you
0:46:30know it's not written as hey it's me
0:46:32george orwell let me talk about Newspeak
0:46:35it's like scholarly work in world and
0:46:37you know science fiction readers are
0:46:38more used to that conceit maybe then
0:46:40then people who are reading more
0:46:42mainstream stuff but it's an important
0:46:44distinction that it's it's sort of not
0:46:46breaking the the the wall in order to
0:46:51talk about how the book was done it's
0:46:52been it's instead this retrospective
0:46:54thing but I mean you also see that this
0:46:57is what drives him this is the thing
0:46:58stuff he's most interested in we've seen
0:47:00it in something like politics in the
0:47:01English language this is the stuff that
0:47:03george orwell was fascinated by and that
0:47:06the story itself i do think the story
0:47:08suffers in from modernize in the fact
0:47:10that we have seen a lot of dystopias now
0:47:12and and so perhaps it in 1949 this would
0:47:17have been a lot fresher but a lot of
0:47:19people have done this kind of dystopian
0:47:21since then so there's there's less
0:47:23shocked in in in what you see in it
0:47:26although they're funny moments I mean
0:47:27you you know that the the it's almost
0:47:30like a comedy gag where he keeps taking
0:47:31out of cigarettes and the tobacco flies
0:47:34out of them
0:47:34that's money and make and and they talk
0:47:36about the victory gin which I mean I
0:47:38don't even want to know what's in it but
0:47:39it's he describes in detail and its
0:47:41second and it sounds terrible oily yeah
0:47:44that's good in the end the coffee that's
0:47:47not any good and the chocolate rations
0:47:50which when he finally have some real
0:47:51chocolate he describes what the actual
0:47:53chocolate tastes like after complaining
0:47:55about them cutting the rations and it's
0:47:57like something that was from like some
0:48:00it's like the Ash left over after
0:48:02something burned is what the chocolate
0:48:04tastes like so there's i do think that
0:48:06there's some funny things in there too
0:48:07or when O'Brien uh gives him a drink and
0:48:09since it's called wine
0:48:10yeah well as for i knows this is
0:48:15something i was i was gonna ask erica to
0:48:17how much of knowing the tropes and
0:48:21knowing the details you know coming at
0:48:26this fresh it's it's you know you don't
0:48:28know those things and like even my my
0:48:30children no big brother than a Winston
0:48:32Smith they know we have always they do
0:48:34jokes we have always been at war with my
0:48:36brother right now see I didn't even know
0:48:38that they haven't read the book right
0:48:41but they've seen references to it online
0:48:43they've seen references and TV shows or
0:48:45other things and so we were talking it
0:48:48over like the other day the 15 year olds
0:48:51like when he reading is 1984 and the int
0:48:54runs through all these things
0:48:55war is peace and you know and then a
0:48:59commercial for whose adaptation of the
0:49:01handmade and the handmaid's tale comes
0:49:05on and he's riveted he's like what's
0:49:08that
0:49:09so it's based on a book by margaret
0:49:10atwood what's going on well here's the
0:49:12basic story and he got more and more
0:49:15upset as i was telling him just like the
0:49:17blurb from the book right and that's not
0:49:19even you know that's like the tiniest
0:49:21amount of detail of the thing and I
0:49:24think i'm curious to see what happens if
0:49:27and when he reads that without any of
0:49:29the preamble that he had four 1984 like
0:49:321984 he knows it right
0:49:34yeah he's hurt at all yeah well I've I
0:49:37felt like I really only had the very
0:49:40broadest broad strokes I I knew even
0:49:43less than your kids did I didn't know
0:49:44the characters name you know if I heard
0:49:46the phrase Ministry of Truth didn't
0:49:47actually know what it referred to and
0:49:50they knew that long five uses the same
0:49:52terms and that's a 94 reference you
0:49:55might have gotten it from there
0:49:56that actually probably is where i doing
0:49:59and it's another 30 number huh and and
0:50:03yes I used Italian totalitarian society
0:50:06and he and I knew the big brother you
0:50:09know they were they were being watched
0:50:10all the time and i think i heard that
0:50:12police that really that was it I mean
0:50:13for me it was it was sort of like I had
0:50:15these tentpole phrases and everything
0:50:18was just sort of coloring in and filling
0:50:21it in but I certainly as difficult as it
0:50:23was to read in part because of the way
0:50:25the world is today but it's still
0:50:28nothing compared to what I experienced
0:50:30when i read The Handmaid's Tale which
0:50:32many years ago because that actually
0:50:35felt like a personal story told right
0:50:37the point of view of a character
0:50:39this was the outline of a character who
0:50:41was you know sort of swooping his way
0:50:44through this world and the world
0:50:45illustrate the worldly matters
0:50:47yeah I will say also that not to get to
0:50:50trivialize this but I mean when you get
0:50:52to the point where star trek the next
0:50:53generation does an entire hour about
0:50:55breaking a character in a bit and
0:50:58torture chamber in order to get them to
0:51:00say two plus two is five essentially i
0:51:03think that we've you know as a society
0:51:05we have as a as a pop culture we have
0:51:08processed what happens in the last act
0:51:101984 and kind of spat it out the other
0:51:12side now so as effective as it is i
0:51:15think that at the same time like we've
0:51:17all processed it now and that that is I
0:51:20feel bad because that you know this is
0:51:22this is what happens to works that are
0:51:23this influential is that it's hard to
0:51:25judge them as being as influential
0:51:28unites deserving as they should be
0:51:30because all of it has you know it
0:51:32seriously you read that and you're like
0:51:34oh yeah there are there are four lights
0:51:35right i mean it's like it's the same
0:51:37thing and it's like yeah okay but almost
0:51:40every 1960 spy TV show did a variation
0:51:43on the Asher sequence right was always
0:51:46let's play the entire here in our room
0:51:48and break him and the entirety of the
0:51:50prisoners especially and and when I was
0:51:51so young adult novels and held today
0:51:53exactly right so that you see that
0:51:55influence influential nature of it but
0:51:57that makes it hard to kind of you know
0:51:59it's hard to hard to judge it there i
0:52:01wanted the the thing decor this we
0:52:05talked about it a little bit but the
0:52:07thing that really i think has the most
0:52:09residents is
0:52:09is this idea of information and
0:52:13controlling information and and yes and
0:52:15language and how people talk and the
0:52:17idea of getting people to believe things
0:52:19it in the in a way like fahrenheit 451
0:52:21some of the people don't care but also
0:52:23its this complete control like if we
0:52:26tell you something that is false and and
0:52:30say it's true then you will believe it
0:52:33and if you if you try to check up on us
0:52:35you will find that all of the
0:52:37information its kind of gas lighting on
0:52:39a grand scale like then all of your all
0:52:41of your all of your reference material
0:52:43will agree with the lie and at one point
0:52:46Smith and when he's being tortured says
0:52:48to himself well everything in the world
0:52:51happens in our minds as interpreted by
0:52:53our minds and every mind believes this
0:52:55thing to be true then is it not true and
0:52:58I thought I found that fascinating the
0:53:00idea that that its core this is a book
0:53:02about complete control of information
0:53:04and that if you can control information
0:53:06you control reality because that's all
0:53:09that is required
0:53:10yeah I i used to work at a biotech
0:53:11company that in was interested the CEO
0:53:17is interested in research into the brain
0:53:20and some really kind of out-there stuff
0:53:21and we would have conferences from time
0:53:24to time and some of the presentations of
0:53:28the conference's talking about brain
0:53:30chemistry and the way the human brain
0:53:32processes its input and you know what
0:53:35what the nature of reality is and how
0:53:37much it's actually based on the
0:53:38chemicals in the brain and what
0:53:40receptors they happen to attach
0:53:41themselves to the idea that that yeah
0:53:44that everybody just choosing to believe
0:53:47something different and in that this one
0:53:51character is the guy who's actually
0:53:52crazy and it's everybody else that's
0:53:54saying isn't that far off from some of
0:53:57the the the research and the the
0:53:59theories that I had learned about the
0:54:01path so that was that was uncomfortable
0:54:02in an entirely different level like oh
0:54:04my god what what if he did flowed out of
0:54:07the room but that could be a thing so
0:54:10yeah it was trippy it's also i mean
0:54:12talking about the earpiece in fahrenheit
0:54:14451 and there's some there's some
0:54:16interesting tech and brave new world
0:54:17that John and I talked about an event
0:54:18that episode of sophomore lit in 1984
0:54:21I'm struck by the
0:54:22it is in a totalitarian state with
0:54:26complete surveillance like Winston Smith
0:54:27got his little cubbyhole where he cannot
0:54:29make noise but he can write in his
0:54:31notebook without being seen by the
0:54:33telescreen but I'm struck by the fact
0:54:36that there's no I mean other than
0:54:39essentially CCTV there's no like
0:54:41location surveillance so it nor is there
0:54:44a it seems like a like a data trail kind
0:54:49of concept so he's able to get on a
0:54:51train out into the country and walk
0:54:53around and end up in the woods and then
0:54:56meet Julia and he's able to do that
0:54:59maybe they go by different means in case
0:55:01they're followed but I did think oh haha
0:55:03yeah you can do that today right because
0:55:06you would have to explain why your cell
0:55:08phone wasn't on or leave it behind and
0:55:11you'd be you have to pay for the ticket
0:55:13with a code that is tied to you and all
0:55:16these things that I kept thinking about
0:55:18how there would be plenty more
0:55:20technology has created plenty more ways
0:55:22to exert control over population than
0:55:24then you even see in 1984
0:55:26yeah and actually in in that case it's
0:55:28almost a little more fahrenheit 451
0:55:30esque in that you know the population
0:55:33has voluntarily given up information
0:55:35about where they are i mean how many
0:55:37people have their GPS just turned on
0:55:39their cell phone all the time whereas
0:55:42you know if they if they did have that
0:55:43technology right it would be very
0:55:45difficult for them to to sneak away
0:55:47yeah it's interesting it's an
0:55:48interesting world in that there's
0:55:50actually very little high technology in
0:55:53this world it's it's all just kind of
0:55:55reconfiguring things that sort of
0:55:58existed in 1948 when he was writing this
0:56:00book but the the and the other thing
0:56:02that's interesting to me is that the
0:56:04proletariat class
0:56:06it seems to be kind of left to their own
0:56:09devices they seem to be they seem to
0:56:11have more of a connection to the past
0:56:14and what's interesting is that being a
0:56:18member of the upper class seems to be a
0:56:21trap as far as as Winston is concerned
0:56:26but it it it's remarkable in a way this
0:56:29book you know I was talking about how
0:56:32Bradbury as a kind of an autodidact was
0:56:34kind of pushing his way up
0:56:35and making a case for elitism or well
0:56:40came from a server impoverished
0:56:43gentility he is like his grandfather had
0:56:47a noble title i don't think it it
0:56:50persisted to is his day but he went
0:56:53through you know all the education
0:56:55everything but but he let his life like
0:56:58living amongst the slums and he actually
0:57:01wrote a book about like living rough in
0:57:03the streets of Paris and London and so
0:57:06he has this kind of a romantic view of
0:57:08what it means to be poor and it's kinda
0:57:10like you know the pulp song common
0:57:14people i always feel it's kind of a
0:57:15little bit uh it's a little bit
0:57:18condescending I i'm struck the polls are
0:57:20very interesting in this because they
0:57:21they have their they have the bars and
0:57:24they they get to drink beer and they can
0:57:26be those of they can read things I mean
0:57:28it the the whatever they said seventeen
0:57:30percent of the population who can read
0:57:33and they have their lottery that they
0:57:36talk about I mean you you get it is a
0:57:37little bit of like the preparations for
0:57:39like they have sport they have like
0:57:41football and beer and things like that
0:57:44and they're there in some ways they seem
0:57:46happier than the miserable people in the
0:57:48party in the outer party like winston
0:57:50smith that's interesting also a unlike
0:57:54something like like brave new world
0:57:58which is is weird and creepy but it's
0:58:00also super shiny and futuristic one of
0:58:03the things that Orwell doesn't do here
0:58:04is have 1984b futuristic anyway there
0:58:07are the telescreens and they provide
0:58:08this this complete viewing of everybody
0:58:13they can see you but like the world is
0:58:16just awful like its battered and
0:58:18everything is rationed and they the
0:58:20things other than the government
0:58:21buildings everything is run down and you
0:58:25can get this grimy you get the sense
0:58:27that the whole world yeah there's that
0:58:28moment where he goes to fix the
0:58:29neighbors the pipe in the neighbors sink
0:58:32and he looks at her and says she looks
0:58:35almost like she has dust in the cracks
0:58:37you know in the increases in her face
0:58:39and then she stands in better light was
0:58:40like oh she does she does have dust on
0:58:43her face because everything is just
0:58:44dusty and grey and green
0:58:46and battered and falling apart and I
0:58:49kinda like that about it that this is
0:58:50Aidan you know it's not a futuristic
0:58:53world where we've traded our freedom for
0:58:55comfort
0:58:56it is a drab awful totalitarian
0:59:00government where nobody has anything he
0:59:02tries to find out find an old pro who
0:59:04could tell him like was it better in the
0:59:06old days who cannot answer his question
0:59:08but I I like that about it yeah and that
0:59:11ties into what John was saying earlier
0:59:13about the technology really just sort of
0:59:15you know somewhat being a rehash of the
0:59:17technology that they had him and he
0:59:18makes a point in one of the sah parts
0:59:20i'm talking about why that happens
0:59:23because you're quashing so much of the
0:59:25the creativity in the free thought I
0:59:27mean the one person the guy who was
0:59:30helping make the Newspeak dictionary the
0:59:3211th version i had actually had such a
0:59:35quick mind and with was an intelligent
0:59:37fellow my mind of course Winston Winston
0:59:40yes once knew he was going to disappear
0:59:41and then and then he did because anybody
0:59:43who is it is smart and creative enough
0:59:45to come up with a new technology that
0:59:47would be helpful for everyone gets gets
0:59:49disappeared and vaporize pretty quick
0:59:51and he mentions that the all the
0:59:53engineers are set to just improving the
0:59:57weapons that can kill people
0:59:57weapons that can kill people
1:00:00when they already have the the nuclear
1:00:01bomb that can kill most effectively but
1:00:03they spend all their time you know
1:00:05making poison gas and floating
1:00:06fortresses that are slightly better than
1:00:09others just to use up the resources so
1:00:11that nobody can be happy
1:00:13yes I'm story is really great because
1:00:16that is a that is a wonderful bit piece
1:00:18of I think satire as well which is which
1:00:20is Simon is a true believer right he
1:00:23believes in the party and everything
1:00:24that's going on but he's still a threat
1:00:26because he's too smart and he he don't
1:00:29want they don't want people who are that
1:00:32intelligent and can think that far ahead
1:00:34because that is dangerous to the party
1:00:36the party doesn't want outliers even if
1:00:39they're on the parties side and so sign
1:00:42is doomed
1:00:43even though he's totally on the side of
1:00:45the party because he's just he's too
1:00:46bright and to creative and that is a
1:00:48that is a very cutting thing about how
1:00:50like this is not this is not a system
1:00:53designed to bring out the best in people
1:00:55and to advance the best people it is it
1:00:58is meant to crush everybody even at its
1:01:00own death into its own detriment which
1:01:02is what happens
1:01:03yeah and the character of persons who is
1:01:05kind of the opposite is he's he's an
1:01:08idiot but he's totally into the party
1:01:10and he is he's all for it
1:01:12he he does the activities he raises the
1:01:14money for the bunting he's teaching his
1:01:16kids to be good and of course they spy
1:01:20on him and his supposedly in his sleep
1:01:22he was talking about death big brother
1:01:24and so he ends up in prison and one
1:01:27assumes killed sure you're wanted on the
1:01:30core 101 right yeah yeah it's a young
1:01:34person's Parsons rides rises high in the
1:01:38party because he is he is he's dumb and
1:01:42and a true believer right and so he's
1:01:45he's not threatening in any way I
1:01:46actually I mean if you back it out like
1:01:48in brave new world there are a lot of we
1:01:51see into the inner workings of the kind
1:01:54of titans who control that society and
1:01:57in 1984 we don't like we see a Brian
1:01:59who's in the inner party and he's got
1:02:00wine to prove it right but like big
1:02:03brother is strongly and prot implied
1:02:05that big brother does not exist and
1:02:07perhaps never did exist and you do one
1:02:10of the things i kinda like also about
1:02:11this society is
1:02:13it's like an empty machine like the
1:02:15society is running itself at this point
1:02:17there is no dictator to speak of
1:02:20there is just the party and it's
1:02:22completely faceless and that's
1:02:24interesting because if there are people
1:02:26in positions of power then they can be
1:02:29corrupt and they can be taken advantage
1:02:31of or they can overthrow the system and
1:02:33in 1984 i think one of the chilling
1:02:34things about it is there are no leaders
1:02:38that it's just a blank machine
1:02:41big brother is as far as we can tell not
1:02:44even a real person
1:02:45everybody's just cogs man yeah even
1:02:47though Brian right although I i went
1:02:49from a plot perspective ask i'm not
1:02:52quite sure why O'Brien invest all the
1:02:55time he does into inviting Winston at
1:02:59and Julia over and talking to them and
1:03:01giving them the book and then they get
1:03:02him and then they spend all this time
1:03:04deconstructing again is are they doing
1:03:06it you know he's doing it for fun is
1:03:07this to keep O'Brien busy it seems like
1:03:10a lot of work to just screw around with
1:03:13this one guy who's just rewriting
1:03:15newspaper articles it it may just be to
1:03:17keep him entertained you know
1:03:19yeah well i think i've read it is
1:03:21O'Brien is a zealot and this is his
1:03:23passion is making minds perfect before
1:03:26they shoot them
1:03:27yeah and you know here's here's where
1:03:28the heat he sees an opportunity because
1:03:31I mean it seems like he planted that
1:03:34seed himself seven years ago because I
1:03:36mean unless unless we're supposed to
1:03:38believe that Winston is psychic somehow
1:03:39which I doubt O'Brien that's somehow
1:03:44spoke to him probably through the Big
1:03:45Brother screen saying we will be no one
1:03:47beat in the place where never any
1:03:49darkness or darkness never falls
1:03:51whatever it be exact scripters so yeah
1:03:54so so really he has it you know he this
1:03:57is this is past time he gets off on it
1:03:59you know he's not a serial killer he's a
1:04:01serial reshape ER killer the cereal
1:04:04grain washer and I think I imagine it's
1:04:07his job to to root out these kind of
1:04:09people who they think will be
1:04:11troublesome because it seems clear at
1:04:14the end that they knew everything that
1:04:17Winston was doing yeah along every step
1:04:20so he had no
1:04:22you know real free freedom to do what he
1:04:26was doing he thought it was getting away
1:04:27with everything he wasn't getting with
1:04:29anything and so I think it's just the
1:04:31system policing itself and just
1:04:33self-perpetuating and then you create a
1:04:35resistance I mean that the the whole
1:04:37Emmanuel Goldstein thing and and
1:04:39creating enemies and creating and then
1:04:42showing them being dispatched I mean you
1:04:44could argue that that's also what's
1:04:45going on here is one way to prevent
1:04:48their from being a real resistance is by
1:04:51having a lot of thought police acting
1:04:53like they're the resistance and sort of
1:04:55snagging those interesting people and at
1:04:57that point one you either get caught by
1:04:59the thought police or to you become so
1:05:01petrified that anybody could be the
1:05:02thought police that you do nothing at
1:05:04which point you know either way there's
1:05:05no resistance and then the acts of
1:05:08resistance are meaningless anyway so
1:05:09like having sex you you're not supposed
1:05:11to enjoy sex but it doesn't really
1:05:13matter if you do or not but then you
1:05:14think you're getting away with something
1:05:15that you're not you're just doing with
1:05:17the party wants to do anything but
1:05:18Winston I think Winston feels that way
1:05:20to right i mean he he says that he he
1:05:24knows he's going to be killed for this
1:05:26he knows he's going to be caught and
1:05:28killed he does it anyway
1:05:30he also believes that the one thing they
1:05:31can't take away from him
1:05:33is that what he thinks he's turned his
1:05:35hatred of Big Brother and at the end he
1:05:37loves big brother
1:05:38yep yep although he does I mean he does
1:05:40say I he's doing he's doing double think
1:05:44at that point right he is he is holding
1:05:46within his heart the knowledge that he
1:05:50has this other set of thoughts but he's
1:05:54not you know but he's also also loving
1:05:57big brother i think i found that ending
1:05:59a little less concrete than i did when i
1:06:01read it as a teenager about about where
1:06:04it Winston Smith really leaves off in
1:06:07that he loved big brother I don't
1:06:08entirely believe that he truly loves big
1:06:10brother big brother and that's all in
1:06:12that moment I mean maybe it's enough but
1:06:15I i don't i don't believe it as much as
1:06:17I used to I feel like butt but even if
1:06:20he's capable of doing doublethink which
1:06:22is what the whole party was your party
1:06:24has one anyway yes oh yeah no doubt
1:06:27about that
1:06:28although there is an earlier you know
1:06:29when it ends he has you know he's fallen
1:06:32in love with big brother but he hasn't
1:06:34been shot yet
1:06:35earlier on you here have been like
1:06:38thinking to himself about how if you can
1:06:41just keep one tiny little corner of
1:06:43himself and you know let that corner but
1:06:47let that hatred hatred flag fly at the
1:06:50moment before he was shot right back of
1:06:52the head then then he will have one
1:06:54right so it's it is ambiguous and in the
1:06:56very very end
1:06:58does he manage to to unleash that hatred
1:07:00in that fury before he is actually dead
1:07:03we don't know yet what it what it
1:07:04doesn't do is the book does not end with
1:07:06that moment of it doesn't like The
1:07:09Sopranos right where it's like is that
1:07:11guy coming to kill me or is this just
1:07:13another day but that is the position
1:07:14that he's in right which is which is
1:07:16he's been given this cushy job where
1:07:19people that was kind of funny too
1:07:21he's on like a subcommittee of the
1:07:22subcommittee where people show up
1:07:24sometimes they don't show up and
1:07:25sometimes the show up and they just
1:07:26leave because there's nothing to do and
1:07:27there they were given this pointless
1:07:29task but it's all a whole bunch of
1:07:30people like Winston and they're being
1:07:32taken care of and being paid and they
1:07:34can kind of do anything because
1:07:35essentially they're just be
1:07:36rehabilitated and then at some point
1:07:38they'll be shot but that's what this
1:07:41again
1:07:42that seems like a long way to go but
1:07:44that's what any other good way to use up
1:07:45resources we gotta say is an adaptation
1:07:48of 1984 that ended with don't stop
1:07:50believin yeah would be amazing could be
1:07:52made the what happens inside the
1:07:55ministry of love in the narrow wide
1:07:58corridors there is just as journey
1:08:01playing on a loop on the telescreen
1:08:03because that would drive you mad
1:08:06yeah oh my god you guys you just
1:08:08described my room 101 and see i'd say go
1:08:12back and read shooting an elephant it's
1:08:13got everything that this book doesn't
1:08:15have it's got its got jokes it's funny
1:08:17it's makes you think it makes you care
1:08:20about the main characters which
1:08:21ultimately i think is the biggest
1:08:24problem for me with 94 is I die I wasn't
1:08:29happy for what happened to Winston Smith
1:08:31but I really didn't like him either the
1:08:34elephant getting my dystopian future a
1:08:36little town he's kind of a blank he's
1:08:39you know he's he's there like Erica said
1:08:42he's there to kind of switch you through
1:08:44the world and so that you can see it all
1:08:47because that's what
1:08:49gonna do yeah i think i think you're
1:08:50right John I think I think this is an
1:08:53important book and I think it's good for
1:08:55people to read it and be conversing in
1:08:56it because it is important but there are
1:09:00just those two essays who are way better
1:09:04reads really then the 1984 us
1:09:08well I i think sometimes you just have
1:09:10to read the foundational texts the right
1:09:12I agree this is clearly one of the most
1:09:16important books of the 20th century
1:09:18completely grad it should be read either
1:09:21that's why we force people high school
1:09:22career was probably not the best time to
1:09:24read it
1:09:26no i agree i think i think people should
1:09:28read it because i think it's i think
1:09:29you're a better person after having read
1:09:32it in terms of being conversant with
1:09:34people's references to it and also to
1:09:38think about some of these issues of
1:09:40language and how we treat information
1:09:43and facts and how in the dangers of
1:09:47society gone wrong and directions that
1:09:51society has gone in the past and may
1:09:53extend to see some of these techniques
1:09:55at work in the present day or or in
1:09:58things like Max Headroom I mean max
1:10:00headroom has a lot of this DNA and oh
1:10:03yeah absolutely when they're there
1:10:04there's a reason why it's if people are
1:10:06buying this book now right is because
1:10:09the idea that facts are not facts that
1:10:12can be changed at any time and you can
1:10:14have your facts and I can have my facts
1:10:16and the past doesn't really exist we can
1:10:18change it to what we need is a very
1:10:20resonant at this moment it is and
1:10:22reading this book is it's very chilling
1:10:25when you think about now even with the
1:10:27technology we have now that this could
1:10:31you know facts can change you have to be
1:10:34hyper-vigilant and went today Winston
1:10:38Smith would just be editing the x is CMS
1:10:41wikipedia right or already which BB n92
1:10:44wikipedia to be in The Times a CMS that
1:10:47you know the times is what he's editing
1:10:48here but yeah he's going to be in a web
1:10:50page editing the web pages they won't
1:10:51even need to print there's a passage
1:10:53about like how they print new copies of
1:10:55the old issues and put them out there
1:10:56I'm like well we've got that solved now
1:10:58you just added the old story
1:11:00I mean we had that discussion
1:11:02at my old job we have that discussion i
1:11:04remember our good pal phillip michael
1:11:06said at one point we're not going to do
1:11:08you know Soviet revisionism on articles
1:11:11if we if we added an article we're going
1:11:13to put a big note at the bottom saying
1:11:14we added this article and you see that
1:11:16but one of the reasons you do that is
1:11:18because otherwise you end up in this
1:11:19Winston Smith situation where the
1:11:22article doesn't say what it used to say
1:11:24and that is not that is not good so it's
1:11:26much easier to do that these days than
1:11:29it was in winston smith stay back in
1:11:31nineteen eighty-four track changes
1:11:32technical track changes technology is
1:11:35advanced least wikipedia has a has an
1:11:38added trail that you can see does it huh
1:11:44hey brother is reminding you that if you
1:11:47donate to wikipedia foundation
1:11:50well yeah I i do agree Scott I think
1:11:52that's what I that's what my wife is I
1:11:54think you should read it because i think
1:11:55people should read it I i think it is it
1:11:57is foundational and important and today
1:12:00I feel like it is it is just as
1:12:02important and it is as a communication
1:12:05major from you know back in the day I
1:12:08like the thoughts about how the way we
1:12:12use words influences the way we think
1:12:14and how much Italian government could
1:12:17decide it was going to invent its own
1:12:19language in order to control the thought
1:12:21of its citizens citizenry I think that's
1:12:23really an interesting idea
1:12:25again it's a novel much more of ideas
1:12:28then of characters in the end but i
1:12:30think it's i think it's worth it worth
1:12:32the time not entertaining no not fun not
1:12:35fun not fun though is that if all right
1:12:39well I think it's time to put this
1:12:40episode down the memory hole there
1:12:43belongs and I lat were all out of it
1:12:46later so that we said completely
1:12:47different things one of those but i'd
1:12:49like to say goodbye to my gas before
1:12:51they are vaporized and we deny their
1:12:53existence on this on this planet at all
1:12:55David jail or thank you for being here
1:12:57thank you all i have to say is apple
1:13:00think different
1:13:01see she was in the book Scotty thank you
1:13:05the pleasure is all mine
1:13:07glad you got to read and remember these
1:13:09books for a short time they were they
1:13:12will soon be forgotten again
1:13:14indeed Eric ensign thank you thank you
1:13:16you know if I thought corrupt podcasts
1:13:19podcasts can also corrupt thought and
1:13:22John McCoy from the shores of Oceania
1:13:24let's put it that way
1:13:25thank you i love you big brother and
1:13:30he's been broken and thanks to everybody
1:13:32out there for listening listening is
1:13:34double plus good we'll see you next time
1:13:47[Music]