46: Not Entirely Nefarious


00:00:00   [Music] [TS]

00:00:04   you're listening to hypercritical a [TS]

00:00:07   weekly talkshow ruminating on exactly [TS]

00:00:08   what is wrong in the world of Apple [TS]

00:00:10   related technologies and businesses [TS]

00:00:12   nothing so perfect but it cannot be [TS]

00:00:14   obliterated by my co-host John siracusa [TS]

00:00:17   I'm Dan benjamin today's december 16 [TS]

00:00:20   2011 this is episode number 46 we want [TS]

00:00:25   to make sure to thank our two sponsors [TS]

00:00:27   harvest and MailChimp tell you more [TS]

00:00:31   about them as the show goes on we also [TS]

00:00:33   want to mention that bandwidth for this [TS]

00:00:35   episode is provided by stitcher smart [TS]

00:00:37   radio can hear all of the shows from us [TS]

00:00:39   here at five by five and thousands [TS]

00:00:41   apparently of other great podcasts on [TS]

00:00:43   demand on the go with switchers free [TS]

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00:00:48   where you go to download it and that [TS]

00:00:50   apparently can win a hundred bucks [TS]

00:00:52   I'm here with uh John siracusa who you [TS]

00:00:56   may have heard of he's a new new writer [TS]

00:00:59   learning about some some computers and [TS]

00:01:02   learning about software and he's here [TS]

00:01:04   today to share some experiences relating [TS]

00:01:08   to those topics welcome and welcome to [TS]

00:01:10   the Internet thanks Dan how are you [TS]

00:01:13   today just fine writing some Perl not so [TS]

00:01:20   much today not today JavaScript today I [TS]

00:01:22   think ooh [TS]

00:01:23   movin up mmm lateral lateral at best [TS]

00:01:29   today is gonna be another follow-up [TS]

00:01:31   filled episode oh yeah last week I had [TS]

00:01:34   that big list of fall up and we went [TS]

00:01:35   through it I thought we got through it [TS]

00:01:36   all but after the show was over I saw [TS]

00:01:38   there was one big section I'd missed so [TS]

00:01:40   I will save that for the end but in the [TS]

00:01:43   meantime I have more well I guess I [TS]

00:01:47   can't read her mail as a follow up I [TS]

00:01:49   know Marco has like dedicated reader [TS]

00:01:50   mail segment I've always kind of done [TS]

00:01:53   Rick's not reader mail sorry listener [TS]

00:01:55   mail listen I've always kind of done [TS]

00:01:56   listener mail as follow-up because [TS]

00:01:59   really what they're the people who write [TS]

00:02:00   in are talking about are things that we [TS]

00:02:02   talked about on previous episodes and so [TS]

00:02:04   it is kind of follow up so anyway going [TS]

00:02:06   to be I have a section of my notes now [TS]

00:02:07   that says reader mail but it's really [TS]

00:02:09   part of the follow okay so I'll start [TS]

00:02:11   with Justin blank who writes [TS]

00:02:14   we're talking about Siri and the any [TS]

00:02:16   relation to to Sean Blanc I don't know [TS]

00:02:20   okay talking about Siri and the ability [TS]

00:02:25   to find abortion clinics in that hole oh [TS]

00:02:26   that's nice Kalia yeah from we talked [TS]

00:02:29   about last week and he it says that [TS]

00:02:34   there's a sort of larger issue beyond [TS]

00:02:36   the silly idea that because it can't [TS]

00:02:39   find abortion clinics that means that [TS]

00:02:41   Apple is pro-life or something sort of a [TS]

00:02:45   I guess it's related but it's he thinks [TS]

00:02:49   there's more more evidence for this so [TS]

00:02:50   he says I'll reading from his email does [TS]

00:02:52   look as if Siri has been written with [TS]

00:02:54   men as it's assumed users that would [TS]

00:02:57   explain why Siri is confused by requests [TS]

00:02:59   for birth control but does not know what [TS]

00:03:00   to do with I'm horny no but does know [TS]

00:03:04   what to do with I'm right right I can't [TS]

00:03:06   find it confused I requested birth [TS]

00:03:07   control when you say I'm horny it has [TS]

00:03:09   like clever replies and stuff so before [TS]

00:03:13   I get into whether I think a Siri was [TS]

00:03:18   designed with men in mind or whatever I [TS]

00:03:20   this this is the example he gives and he [TS]

00:03:23   points to an article called Siri sexism [TS]

00:03:25   and Silicon Valley which is it the [TS]

00:03:27   American Prospect I put this link in the [TS]

00:03:28   show notes which people can read if they [TS]

00:03:30   want [TS]

00:03:31   the examples that he gives here I my [TS]

00:03:35   question is first of all why is being [TS]

00:03:37   horny something that shows that it was [TS]

00:03:39   written with men in mind I guess calling [TS]

00:03:42   the only mental the only men are horny [TS]

00:03:44   right obviously that doesn't make any [TS]

00:03:47   sense to me and the site why is birth [TS]

00:03:50   controlling something that applies to [TS]

00:03:51   women to men you know just don't care if [TS]

00:03:55   they have indiscriminate you know babies [TS]

00:03:57   everywhere I don't I don't know stoop [TS]

00:04:00   ESA's of evidence I don't find [TS]

00:04:01   convincing in fact I think the notion [TS]

00:04:04   that those show that there's a male [TS]

00:04:06   slant the things may reveal kind of some [TS]

00:04:09   gender bias in the the assumptions that [TS]

00:04:12   underlie you know those things it's [TS]

00:04:15   possible these differences are all [TS]

00:04:17   emergent behavior of some kind but but [TS]

00:04:20   it seems surprising to him and he's a [TS]

00:04:22   basically the idea that if there's not [TS]

00:04:24   it's not some specific conspiracy theory [TS]

00:04:26   it's kind of like a [TS]

00:04:28   in unconscious bias because it's kind of [TS]

00:04:29   all we just assumed kind of like the [TS]

00:04:31   unconscious bias of saying that it knows [TS]

00:04:34   how to react to I'm horny [TS]

00:04:35   right the vets are maybe a response with [TS]

00:04:39   escort services and they think all women [TS]

00:04:41   don't frequent escort services or [TS]

00:04:42   whatever but the that is not a conscious [TS]

00:04:45   decision in apple's part to be evil or [TS]

00:04:47   pro-life or whatever it just falls out [TS]

00:04:48   of how they do things kind of like when [TS]

00:04:51   we were talking about Pixar where you [TS]

00:04:54   know we're saying Pixar old movies have [TS]

00:04:55   male protagonists and tend to have a [TS]

00:04:56   male point of view and maybe that falls [TS]

00:04:58   out of the fact that the directors were [TS]

00:05:00   all males or whatever and it's not like [TS]

00:05:02   a conscious effort to exclude somebody [TS]

00:05:04   but it's just something that happens but [TS]

00:05:05   I think and I read this this article The [TS]

00:05:09   American Prospect I think the entire [TS]

00:05:11   thing is just even though he wants the [TS]

00:05:14   position as a as something different [TS]

00:05:16   than what I was complaining about the [TS]

00:05:17   really dumb people who think that [TS]

00:05:21   everything of the computer does means [TS]

00:05:22   that it's like an intelligent being and [TS]

00:05:24   it's reflecting something I think [TS]

00:05:25   and then this somehow was like all those [TS]

00:05:27   people obviously are crazy but here look [TS]

00:05:28   at this this this shows that there [TS]

00:05:30   really may be some kind of a biased [TS]

00:05:31   conscious or unconscious baked into [TS]

00:05:33   there I think it's the same mistake in [TS]

00:05:35   both cases it is the mistake of assuming [TS]

00:05:38   that any whole in series understanding [TS]

00:05:40   is a meaningful omission right I think [TS]

00:05:43   in reality if you were to draw like a [TS]

00:05:44   Venn diagram of the whole of human [TS]

00:05:46   knowledge and overlay on it [TS]

00:05:48   what Syria understands and knows about [TS]

00:05:50   the overlap would be miniscule so [TS]

00:05:52   anytime you find anything that's in the [TS]

00:05:54   non overlapping region you go aha that [TS]

00:05:56   shows that you know this must have been [TS]

00:05:58   a conscious omission or there's some [TS]

00:05:59   meaning of it and when in reality [TS]

00:06:00   doesn't this note meaningful there's [TS]

00:06:02   almost no meaning to the omission [TS]

00:06:04   because there's so much Siri doesn't [TS]

00:06:06   know about Siri knows about this tiny [TS]

00:06:07   sliver of things [TS]

00:06:09   it's basically arbitrary what things [TS]

00:06:11   fall within obviously things like making [TS]

00:06:13   appointments or things to do with phones [TS]

00:06:15   but when it comes to just putting in fun [TS]

00:06:16   stuff or trying to anticipate what [TS]

00:06:19   people might possibly say to it and [TS]

00:06:20   provide a response other than I'm sorry [TS]

00:06:22   I don't understand if Apple made any [TS]

00:06:26   mistake it was not an obvious mistake [TS]

00:06:28   but the decision that Apple made was [TS]

00:06:30   apparently we're going to put responses [TS]

00:06:33   in to try to cover some of the things we [TS]

00:06:36   people we think people will say in jest [TS]

00:06:37   to the phone like all those you know [TS]

00:06:41   science fiction [TS]

00:06:41   questions and other type nerd things [TS]

00:06:43   that you might be you know you have a [TS]

00:06:44   talking computer what might you say to a [TS]

00:06:45   talking computer based on past pop [TS]

00:06:47   culture or literary references to [TS]

00:06:49   talking computers and put in clever [TS]

00:06:50   replies so then once you start down that [TS]

00:06:51   path of putting the little clever [TS]

00:06:52   replies if there are areas you don't [TS]

00:06:55   cover with little clever replies be well [TS]

00:06:57   they had a clever reply for this but [TS]

00:06:58   didn't have a clever replied for that [TS]

00:07:01   whereas if Siri simply said I'm sorry I [TS]

00:07:04   don't understand every time you said [TS]

00:07:05   anything that wasn't like using phone [TS]

00:07:08   functionality that might have avoided [TS]

00:07:11   this controversy but I don't I don't [TS]

00:07:15   think there's any it's very difficult to [TS]

00:07:17   be able to read any conscious or [TS]

00:07:19   unconscious bias into any of these [TS]

00:07:21   things simply because there's just so [TS]

00:07:23   much it doesn't cover it doesn't cover [TS]

00:07:25   your to to a good approximation Siri [TS]

00:07:27   knows about nothing right so anytime you [TS]

00:07:30   find something that Siri doesn't [TS]

00:07:31   understand I have a hard time getting my [TS]

00:07:35   dander up about the fact that it doesn't [TS]

00:07:38   know this because doesn't know anything [TS]

00:07:39   and those such a little sliver of the [TS]

00:07:41   world and I'm not saying this is like a [TS]

00:07:46   defending Apple like I said it may have [TS]

00:07:48   been if Apple's goal was to avoid all [TS]

00:07:51   controversy it would have been smarter [TS]

00:07:52   to make the thing just say I'm sorry I [TS]

00:07:56   don't understand that or whatever but I [TS]

00:07:58   think it overall you know in the [TS]

00:08:02   aggregate it's more positive experience [TS]

00:08:05   with Siri because they added all these [TS]

00:08:07   cute little things in there and if the [TS]

00:08:10   price of that is to have people read [TS]

00:08:13   things into the bits that the [TS]

00:08:15   individuals didn't put in our business [TS]

00:08:17   they're just a bunch of people working [TS]

00:08:18   there some guys make it respond to [TS]

00:08:20   something when when I say I want [TS]

00:08:21   Hitchhiker's Guide the designer [TS]

00:08:22   Hitchhiker's Guide nerd yet so obviously [TS]

00:08:24   it's people are going to put in things [TS]

00:08:25   from their life experience and maybe [TS]

00:08:27   it's a bunch of nerds or a bunch of guy [TS]

00:08:29   nerds I don't even know what the gender [TS]

00:08:31   makeup of Apple's engineers in the siri [TS]

00:08:34   team are for all I know it could be all [TS]

00:08:35   women right but that's but these people [TS]

00:08:37   don't know either so I don't know I [TS]

00:08:39   still think it's a non-issue another [TS]

00:08:42   issue that I continue to talk about so I [TS]

00:08:44   guess I'm doing to myself here so the [TS]

00:08:47   next one is from John Carroll kavala [TS]

00:08:51   hyphenated last name sorry if I [TS]

00:08:53   mispronounced that [TS]

00:08:55   talked about iBooks last week and the [TS]

00:08:57   like the book page Chrome with the you [TS]

00:09:01   know that shit looks like it's an actual [TS]

00:09:02   book with the spine in the middle and [TS]

00:09:05   all that stuff [TS]

00:09:06   and I was saying how that was you know [TS]

00:09:07   pointless and everything anachronistic [TS]

00:09:09   and but it served a purpose to make [TS]

00:09:11   people more comfortable with it and drew [TS]

00:09:13   them in and let them know they could [TS]

00:09:14   read books and all that little stuff but [TS]

00:09:17   what I did say it some point during that [TS]

00:09:18   is that anybody who reads books for a [TS]

00:09:20   longer gets into ebooks and you know [TS]

00:09:24   decides that that's a medium that [TS]

00:09:25   they're interested in they really they [TS]

00:09:26   want to stop reading paper and start [TS]

00:09:28   reading ebooks or they really start to [TS]

00:09:29   getting to go they will abandon that [TS]

00:09:32   Chrome it will stop being meaningful [TS]

00:09:35   meaningful or interesting to them at all [TS]

00:09:37   and this person wrote in to tell me that [TS]

00:09:41   he knows some people his mother-in-law [TS]

00:09:43   and his wife who we think just loved [TS]

00:09:44   that Chrome and who read a lot of iBooks [TS]

00:09:46   books [TS]

00:09:47   so yeah it's the it's a comfort factor [TS]

00:09:52   and it has all the marketing benefits [TS]

00:09:54   but some people even after they get into [TS]

00:09:56   this read book after book after book [TS]

00:09:57   still still get a kick out of that like [TS]

00:09:59   it doesn't wear off you know that the [TS]

00:10:01   the familiarity and comfort provided by [TS]

00:10:04   that thing looking like a book is an [TS]

00:10:06   ongoing benefit ah which I didn't you [TS]

00:10:11   know I would which it sort of negates my [TS]

00:10:13   blanket statement that obviously [TS]

00:10:14   everyone's going to think that's [TS]

00:10:15   horrible [TS]

00:10:15   you know people won't ah I thought I [TS]

00:10:18   think this gets back to and I responded [TS]

00:10:19   this person by email to is I should put [TS]

00:10:22   this in the shownotes thing I wrote [TS]

00:10:23   about ebooks a long time ago uh and I [TS]

00:10:26   was making I was talking about people [TS]

00:10:28   who said ebooks are bogus because they [TS]

00:10:31   like real books and is all these tactile [TS]

00:10:34   and you know sensory advantages of real [TS]

00:10:36   books and all those other things that [TS]

00:10:37   are true about that real books have the [TS]

00:10:39   D books don't and what I said was those [TS]

00:10:43   people are right those things are [TS]

00:10:44   benefits and they aren't reproduced by [TS]

00:10:46   books and the analogy I drew is between [TS]

00:10:49   people who are really into horses when [TS]

00:10:50   the automobile came along and there are [TS]

00:10:52   things there are experiences of owning [TS]

00:10:55   and riding a horse that aren't [TS]

00:10:57   duplicated by cars one of the things I [TS]

00:10:58   listed which I was surprised that people [TS]

00:10:59   to contest to be on was that the smell [TS]

00:11:02   of horses if you're a horse person and [TS]

00:11:05   you love horses you love riding horses [TS]

00:11:07   smells associated [TS]

00:11:08   horses have have a have meaning to you [TS]

00:11:12   personally emotionally and they're part [TS]

00:11:14   of the experience you know books have [TS]

00:11:17   the same thing people smell like the [TS]

00:11:18   glue that connects the bindings or the [TS]

00:11:20   leather if it's a leather round book or [TS]

00:11:21   whatever that smell experiences is very [TS]

00:11:23   important then obviously ebooks don't [TS]

00:11:24   reproduce that they smell like a lead [TS]

00:11:27   solder years ago I don't know if you can [TS]

00:11:29   smell lead but but you know and what I [TS]

00:11:33   said was those people are right there [TS]

00:11:34   they're not going to get this experience [TS]

00:11:36   from their horses that you know from the [TS]

00:11:37   cars that they have with the horses but [TS]

00:11:39   eventually those people will all die and [TS]

00:11:41   then will will be arriving cars and this [TS]

00:11:44   is true of people of you know people who [TS]

00:11:46   are live right now who are accustomed to [TS]

00:11:49   books and find comfort in that the there [TS]

00:11:51   they may find comfort in that those fake [TS]

00:11:54   book graphics for the entirety of their [TS]

00:11:55   life but I think that the long-term [TS]

00:11:59   trend is away from physical books just [TS]

00:12:01   as it was away from horses and [TS]

00:12:03   eventually the people who are really [TS]

00:12:05   into horses will be in the vast vast [TS]

00:12:06   minority and Aaron else will drive cars [TS]

00:12:08   and not not think for a second what [TS]

00:12:10   they're missing by not riding a horse [TS]

00:12:12   you know I mean like that's just the [TS]

00:12:15   march of progress I think already that [TS]

00:12:19   that sort of choosing to choosing to [TS]

00:12:23   give comfort to those people and aim for [TS]

00:12:24   them is is not forward-looking it's kind [TS]

00:12:28   of a mistake would be like designing [TS]

00:12:30   your car to try to simulate the things [TS]

00:12:33   that people loved about horses better to [TS]

00:12:35   just look forward and it's kind of it's [TS]

00:12:36   it's backwards for Apple because in all [TS]

00:12:38   the regards Apple is so [TS]

00:12:39   forward-looking you know I drop the [TS]

00:12:42   obstacle just drop the floppy drive get [TS]

00:12:44   rid of the the things that are comfort [TS]

00:12:46   to people who are used to PCs you know [TS]

00:12:49   only can't install arbitrary software [TS]

00:12:51   very simple applications all all the [TS]

00:12:54   things that all of us who grew up with [TS]

00:12:56   with personal computers think are you [TS]

00:12:58   know that's not you know what things I [TS]

00:13:00   loved about pcs were configurability and [TS]

00:13:03   ability to use all my legacy hardware [TS]

00:13:05   and software and all that stuff and an [TS]

00:13:08   Apple said no we're going forward we're [TS]

00:13:09   leaving without you we're on this side [TS]

00:13:12   mostly because it was everyone seems to [TS]

00:13:14   think that Steve Jobs had big influence [TS]

00:13:16   and there's a heap he clearly does love [TS]

00:13:18   physical things and he grew up with [TS]

00:13:20   vinyl and paper books and stuff [TS]

00:13:22   that so he was probably also comforted [TS]

00:13:25   by those little book graphics but it is [TS]

00:13:29   I think it's a mistake and I think if [TS]

00:13:31   they should be consistent in their ways [TS]

00:13:33   and I mean I guess Apple those tubas [TS]

00:13:35   they introduced the the quote-unquote [TS]

00:13:37   full-screen mode all right [TS]

00:13:39   it's probably I don't know I keep going [TS]

00:13:41   back and forth this is it a good idea to [TS]

00:13:43   have that as a default because it's such [TS]

00:13:44   a great such great PR it sells iPads it [TS]

00:13:48   looks good on TV [TS]

00:13:49   it gets people it does serve an [TS]

00:13:51   important purpose so I keep going back [TS]

00:13:53   and forth on whether it should be the [TS]

00:13:54   default or not I guess what I would hope [TS]

00:13:57   for was that it would be that it would [TS]

00:13:59   be the default on the display models [TS]

00:14:01   then you got at home you might be [TS]

00:14:02   annoyed where's the cool looking book [TS]

00:14:03   thing I don't know maybe maybe Apple is [TS]

00:14:06   right on this the book books is a harder [TS]

00:14:07   call than the calendar thing because I [TS]

00:14:09   think the calendar thing has already [TS]

00:14:11   progressed so much that how many people [TS]

00:14:13   use a paper calendar versus keep their [TS]

00:14:15   calendar and Outlook or whatever most [TS]

00:14:16   working people who work with computers [TS]

00:14:18   all day long have long since accepted [TS]

00:14:21   the the concept of an electronic [TS]

00:14:22   calendar the very least for work so [TS]

00:14:24   making it look like a paper calendar is [TS]

00:14:26   just wasted whereas most people I don't [TS]

00:14:28   think have come over to ebooks yet and [TS]

00:14:30   making it look like a paper book maybe [TS]

00:14:32   less wasted on them I don't know but it [TS]

00:14:34   was a good point that there are people [TS]

00:14:36   who derive a continued and ongoing [TS]

00:14:38   benefit and enjoyment from from this [TS]

00:14:41   thing I think it's a real phenomenon I [TS]

00:14:43   think it's you can't dismiss those [TS]

00:14:45   people but I think of all those people [TS]

00:14:47   including us will eventually die and it [TS]

00:14:49   won't be you know that time marches on [TS]

00:14:51   oh one last one from Fred sindelle oh [TS]

00:14:57   the fred sandal email yeah what's up [TS]

00:15:01   with apple's aversion to ergonomics and [TS]

00:15:02   they have great design always beautiful [TS]

00:15:05   stuff but i think they could do this and [TS]

00:15:07   also integrate organ AMEX try the Magic [TS]

00:15:08   Mouse it's not comfortable I have their [TS]

00:15:11   Wireless it's fine but it can be much [TS]

00:15:13   more comfortable there I think we've [TS]

00:15:14   talked about this on past shows I don't [TS]

00:15:18   like a lot of apples ergonomics too and [TS]

00:15:21   always what I ascribe their failure to a [TS]

00:15:27   devotion to visual design right which [TS]

00:15:30   takes dominance over organ ah max so [TS]

00:15:32   when it comes down to this could be more [TS]

00:15:35   comfortable [TS]

00:15:36   it would be uglier they go with make it [TS]

00:15:39   make it beautiful right and my big one I [TS]

00:15:42   complain about a while back was the half [TS]

00:15:43   size arrow keys obviously is someone who [TS]

00:15:46   uses arrow keys a lot I think [TS]

00:15:47   programmers use arrow keys a lot more [TS]

00:15:49   maybe not maybe not their VI users but [TS]

00:15:52   Mac users anyway use arrows a lot more [TS]

00:15:54   if you're a Mac programmer and they're [TS]

00:15:58   half size because if they weren't they [TS]

00:16:00   would poke out of the perfect rectangle [TS]

00:16:02   area made for keyboards on laptops so [TS]

00:16:07   why don't you know it's not it's not as [TS]

00:16:09   comfortable to use a half size arrow key [TS]

00:16:11   but in that when a debate comes up hey [TS]

00:16:13   you know we could we have plenty of room [TS]

00:16:15   on this laptop to you know to push down [TS]

00:16:18   the arrow keys and have a regular [TS]

00:16:20   full-size keys like in a little inverted [TS]

00:16:22   tea and lots of PC laptops do that but [TS]

00:16:24   those those people that you know are [TS]

00:16:26   never winning that not that that's that [TS]

00:16:27   as a minor organ Amma Kish ooh full-size [TS]

00:16:30   keys are slightly more ergonomic than [TS]

00:16:32   half size keys but for things from like [TS]

00:16:35   mice the same type of deal those big [TS]

00:16:36   chunky mice it's not as clear-cut with [TS]

00:16:38   mice because people hold mice in [TS]

00:16:40   different ways if you rest your hand on [TS]

00:16:41   top of it a flat or mice or even like a [TS]

00:16:44   puck Mouse I know a lot of people who [TS]

00:16:45   really love the puck Mouse aside from [TS]

00:16:47   the alignment issues of figuring out [TS]

00:16:48   which way was up they liked the fact [TS]

00:16:50   that it was low profile and if you if [TS]

00:16:51   you use the mouse like that a low Mouse [TS]

00:16:55   is good for you but if you grip it from [TS]

00:16:56   the sides you want something that fills [TS]

00:16:57   your hands so your hands aren't like [TS]

00:16:59   kind of poised above it right you know [TS]

00:17:01   you want something to rest your palm on [TS]

00:17:02   so like Logitech and Microsoft make [TS]

00:17:04   larger mice like that I don't think that [TS]

00:17:06   the case with the mice is as clear-cut [TS]

00:17:07   as people make it out to be but there [TS]

00:17:09   are people who want a higher Mouse a [TS]

00:17:11   bigger Mouse that fills their [TS]

00:17:12   adult-sized hand and Apple doesn't make [TS]

00:17:14   one of those I think apples big eyes are [TS]

00:17:16   going to mix in with the magic Mouse's [TS]

00:17:17   that you have to not have finger [TS]

00:17:20   touching the left button when you press [TS]

00:17:22   the right button right so you've got to [TS]

00:17:24   do this little dance almost like into an [TS]

00:17:25   insect or a crab would move if animating [TS]

00:17:29   dance you have to do this weird lift one [TS]

00:17:32   finger touch other yeah and some people [TS]

00:17:34   do that automatically and say well [TS]

00:17:36   what's the problem I don't you know they [TS]

00:17:37   won't even you'll you'll tell them about [TS]

00:17:38   this enabled and have never been aware [TS]

00:17:40   of that problem because they do that no [TS]

00:17:41   matter what but if you don't do that you [TS]

00:17:43   will quickly find that it's registering [TS]

00:17:44   a left click when you really meant a [TS]

00:17:45   right click and if there were actual [TS]

00:17:47   separate buttons and what would be the [TS]

00:17:49   big deal with separate buttons like [TS]

00:17:50   most modern mice is not like you need a [TS]

00:17:52   bunch of cut lines need one little thin [TS]

00:17:54   line between the two halves and the [TS]

00:17:55   plastic flexes enough a lot of you know [TS]

00:17:57   modern mice have that they just have one [TS]

00:17:59   it's still one piece of plastic for the [TS]

00:18:01   top of the mouse is just to cut down the [TS]

00:18:02   middle and it you know it bends down the [TS]

00:18:04   right and left doesn't matter you're [TS]

00:18:05   talking a left side but you're pressing [TS]

00:18:06   two separate switches but no they don't [TS]

00:18:10   want that cut line so and they want I [TS]

00:18:12   guess they also want to look like a [TS]

00:18:13   single button Mouse and I think that's [TS]

00:18:14   still how it defaults yes it definitely [TS]

00:18:17   does default to a working like a single [TS]

00:18:20   mouse button until you manually go in [TS]

00:18:22   and change yeah I think putting in that [TS]

00:18:24   cut line would be a big upgrade and it [TS]

00:18:26   also wouldn't confuse people because if [TS]

00:18:28   someone doesn't know it about the double [TS]

00:18:30   buttons they still can't hit the wrong [TS]

00:18:31   button the fact they're two maybe that [TS]

00:18:33   will give them pause but I don't think [TS]

00:18:35   they'd even notice that there were two [TS]

00:18:36   buttons if you make the cut line very [TS]

00:18:37   subtle on me on the mouse so are there [TS]

00:18:40   organized things that Apple does we [TS]

00:18:42   talked about the slippery little pill [TS]

00:18:44   iPod stuff where it looks very nice but [TS]

00:18:48   if it's something that's meant to be [TS]

00:18:49   held in your hand probably making it [TS]

00:18:51   slippery as a bad idea especially if [TS]

00:18:52   it's breakable but it's the ground [TS]

00:18:55   they've gone back and forth on that the [TS]

00:18:58   the edges on on laptops Marco's had some [TS]

00:19:00   good macro photography on his website [TS]

00:19:02   showing that Apple has actually made the [TS]

00:19:05   edge of its unibody aluminum MacBook [TS]

00:19:07   slightly less sharp but still pretty [TS]

00:19:10   darn sharp and for people who rest their [TS]

00:19:12   wrists which you should not do by the [TS]

00:19:14   way it's ergonomically speaking it's not [TS]

00:19:16   a good idea to rest your wrists on [TS]

00:19:18   anything while typing because it [TS]

00:19:20   compresses everything in there and [TS]

00:19:21   really you're they should be up in your [TS]

00:19:23   hands to be anyway if you don't have any [TS]

00:19:25   problems with RSI and you rest your [TS]

00:19:27   wrist or yours in between typing you [TS]

00:19:28   like to rest your wrist or the sharp [TS]

00:19:30   edge there it dulled down a little bit [TS]

00:19:32   or not that's not the best organ Amma [TS]

00:19:34   Klee speaking but it looks really nice [TS]

00:19:36   right when you especially when you close [TS]

00:19:38   it up that line is really nice and it [TS]

00:19:40   looks like a nice machine you know so [TS]

00:19:41   it's not rounded over because rounded [TS]

00:19:43   over look less elegant in many many [TS]

00:19:46   areas of the handles the handles on the [TS]

00:19:48   g5 and Powermat case they look nice but [TS]

00:19:51   if there's you're supposed to use them [TS]

00:19:53   in your hands to pick a 50-pound machine [TS]

00:19:54   those handles are not comfortable [TS]

00:19:57   they're not aligned right there they're [TS]

00:19:58   metal that digs into your hands and it's [TS]

00:20:01   not just to the record it's not like [TS]

00:20:02   Apple doesn't know [TS]

00:20:03   how to do this if you look at the older [TS]

00:20:05   g4 is the blue you know that you [TS]

00:20:07   remember your old blue and white g3 that [TS]

00:20:09   you had how great that thing was to to [TS]

00:20:12   grab hold of and move around it was a [TS]

00:20:14   little bit better and a lot day the best [TS]

00:20:16   ones worthy I think it was the [TS]

00:20:19   quicksilver's where they had a it was [TS]

00:20:21   thick completely clear handles they were [TS]

00:20:25   curved on the bottom as well as the top [TS]

00:20:26   they because the the g4 and g3 handles [TS]

00:20:30   were solid on the top but had like kind [TS]

00:20:33   of a scaffolding framework behind them [TS]

00:20:35   so that wasn't wasn't a solid back [TS]

00:20:36   surface with the Quicksilver solid there [TS]

00:20:38   we yeah so they had they had done it [TS]

00:20:39   better but I think but you know when it [TS]

00:20:41   that's because in that particular case [TS]

00:20:42   that was not a tension between design [TS]

00:20:45   and ergonomics visual design and [TS]

00:20:47   ergonomics and this this is kind of what [TS]

00:20:49   gets me with a lot of Steve Jobs always [TS]

00:20:51   talking about design is how it works [TS]

00:20:52   it's not what it looks like and stuff he [TS]

00:20:55   obviously had a weak spot when it came [TS]

00:20:57   to that because economic society parking [TS]

00:21:02   on a wall it's really how how it works [TS]

00:21:03   not what it looks like they also [TS]

00:21:05   everyone also wants it to look really [TS]

00:21:07   awesome and in particular cases when [TS]

00:21:10   there's a conflict between looking [TS]

00:21:11   awesome and being the best organ amelie [TS]

00:21:14   Apple under the second reign of Steve [TS]

00:21:16   Jobs chose to make things look better a [TS]

00:21:21   lot of the time sometimes I think very [TS]

00:21:26   foolishly but they will be interesting [TS]

00:21:28   to see if that changes now the jobs is [TS]

00:21:30   gone if we see some some decisions were [TS]

00:21:33   something that doesn't look as nice as [TS]

00:21:35   it could but it's ergonomically better I [TS]

00:21:38   think I did that whole show about things [TS]

00:21:43   looking good as they wear out right so [TS]

00:21:45   that was actually in the jobs bio where [TS]

00:21:48   I think someone brought that up you know [TS]

00:21:50   the stainless steel back of an iPod I [TS]

00:21:51   think this was pre iPhone and how you [TS]

00:21:55   know it looks awesome in photos when you [TS]

00:21:57   buy but as soon as you touch it [TS]

00:21:58   fingerprints go on it gets scratched if [TS]

00:22:01   you know almost instantly if you put it [TS]

00:22:03   near anything and then eventually is all [TS]

00:22:04   scratched up and what Steve Jobs said [TS]

00:22:05   was I actually kind of really like the [TS]

00:22:07   look of scratched up shiny stainless [TS]

00:22:10   steel maybe he does or he could just be [TS]

00:22:14   rationalizing I don't know does he like [TS]

00:22:16   the look of fingerprint [TS]

00:22:17   on stainless-steel maybe like that do it [TS]

00:22:19   is it you know it's people have [TS]

00:22:21   different tastes is true but we all just [TS]

00:22:23   generally like the the reason I think [TS]

00:22:25   that Apple Apple products are not [TS]

00:22:27   designed to look good as they where is [TS]

00:22:31   that all apples product photography and [TS]

00:22:34   all their commercials the devices are [TS]

00:22:35   basically untouched by human hands [TS]

00:22:37   they're like pristine perfect they might [TS]

00:22:39   that people always think they're 3d [TS]

00:22:41   renders they look so awesome that's a [TS]

00:22:42   testament to the people who product [TS]

00:22:43   photography for Apple but realistically [TS]

00:22:45   speaking no device every touch by human [TS]

00:22:47   will look like the ones in Apple's [TS]

00:22:49   product photos practically you know a [TS]

00:22:51   photographed in a vacuum chamber all [TS]

00:22:55   right you know at Intel cleanroom right [TS]

00:22:58   if and if they really thought their [TS]

00:22:59   products looked awesome as they wore out [TS]

00:23:01   as Steve Jobs seemed to they were I [TS]

00:23:02   would imagine there would be some sort [TS]

00:23:04   of like advertisement showing your [TS]

00:23:08   emotional connection to the iPod you've [TS]

00:23:09   had for a long time that's another thing [TS]

00:23:11   Apple doesn't want you to have your [TS]

00:23:12   iPods for a long time they want you to [TS]

00:23:13   buy a new one but you know kind of like [TS]

00:23:16   car commercials will occasionally show [TS]

00:23:17   the guy who's got the Honda with a [TS]

00:23:18   million miles in it it's like a 1982 [TS]

00:23:20   Honda right and it's not it's not beat [TS]

00:23:23   up but it doesn't look like a new car [TS]

00:23:24   and they'll do like the magazine ad or [TS]

00:23:26   whatever showing the guy standing or [TS]

00:23:27   standing up to his old VW saying you [TS]

00:23:29   know I've had this for 300 thousand [TS]

00:23:32   miles and yeah I look at it and it's it [TS]

00:23:34   you know it's not it it's always looks [TS]

00:23:36   good but it looks like a car that's been [TS]

00:23:38   used and they're saying this is a [TS]

00:23:40   beautiful thing our machines are so [TS]

00:23:41   durable and tough and you can have them [TS]

00:23:42   and as they age they they look nice as [TS]

00:23:46   they as they wear this is not so much an [TS]

00:23:48   ergonomic issue as a reliability issue [TS]

00:23:50   that's another place where I brought up [TS]

00:23:52   is another place where there's a tension [TS]

00:23:53   between looking good when you take it [TS]

00:23:56   out of the box and something that will [TS]

00:23:57   continue to look good later and when it [TS]

00:24:00   comes down to a choice Apple seems to [TS]

00:24:01   pick well we know this is the back of [TS]

00:24:03   this thing is going to be filled with [TS]

00:24:04   fingerprints and scratched up and [TS]

00:24:05   everything but man it looks great when [TS]

00:24:07   it's new so that's our choice instead of [TS]

00:24:09   picking material that is both [TS]

00:24:10   economically better like won't slip out [TS]

00:24:12   of your hand and will look better six [TS]

00:24:14   months into use with all their devices [TS]

00:24:18   that handheld desktop everything if [TS]

00:24:20   anything I was is more room on the [TS]

00:24:21   desktop to make something that looks [TS]

00:24:22   like a piece of sculpture because you're [TS]

00:24:23   not carrying it around you're not [TS]

00:24:24   manipulating it so that can look awesome [TS]

00:24:27   for a longer period of time [TS]

00:24:29   you know and then speaking of the [TS]

00:24:32   Isaacson bio there was a story this week [TS]

00:24:35   that Oh Susan fortune fortune magazine [TS]

00:24:39   at CNN I don't even know the business [TS]

00:24:42   relationship with these entities anymore [TS]

00:24:43   link in the show notes that the jobs [TS]

00:24:47   biography could expand Isaacson saying [TS]

00:24:50   that he he might expand the book someone [TS]

00:24:52   possibility is doing an extensively [TS]

00:24:54   annotated version I think that would [TS]

00:24:56   have a lot of value because although he [TS]

00:24:57   does have the big like bibliography in [TS]

00:25:01   the back of sources and when he [TS]

00:25:02   interviewed Hugh and stuff who we [TS]

00:25:04   interviewed when it's not easy to map [TS]

00:25:07   individual quotes and stuff back to [TS]

00:25:09   things and one of the many many [TS]

00:25:10   complaints that I and other people not [TS]

00:25:12   about the books it's not always easy to [TS]

00:25:13   tell when someone is speaking when [TS]

00:25:15   someone's being quoted what is this from [TS]

00:25:17   is that someone speaking now was that [TS]

00:25:18   someone speaking in the 80s you know you [TS]

00:25:21   can't tell when the interview that that [TS]

00:25:25   gave this information took place and [TS]

00:25:28   whether it was performed by the author [TS]

00:25:29   or not whether he's just you know [TS]

00:25:31   retelling something from another source [TS]

00:25:33   so an annotated version I think what [TS]

00:25:37   would up it would do wonders to help [TS]

00:25:40   resolve some of those mysteries right [TS]

00:25:41   yeah and if a lot of people talk about [TS]

00:25:43   well you know so we did a bad job with [TS]

00:25:45   the bio whatever but I guess people can [TS]

00:25:46   use it as reference material and maybe [TS]

00:25:48   he'll release his material this would be [TS]

00:25:50   like partially along the road to you [TS]

00:25:54   know releasing all of his notes and all [TS]

00:25:56   of his interviews if he taped them if he [TS]

00:25:57   transcribed as interviews I don't know [TS]

00:25:58   what his research looks like and if [TS]

00:26:01   there is this big font of a source [TS]

00:26:04   material that he could release one early [TS]

00:26:06   the book the book just wrote itself John [TS]

00:26:07   yeah register itself that's yeah it's [TS]

00:26:12   like I didn't have to do anything the [TS]

00:26:13   babies you just wrote itself [TS]

00:26:14   yeah and so that's one possibility and [TS]

00:26:18   another is writing an addendum that [TS]

00:26:20   addresses the period surrounding jobs [TS]

00:26:21   death but which jobs is death they did [TS]

00:26:24   jobs in this fortune Oracle Jo BS ' you [TS]

00:26:27   don't like that no I don't like that [TS]

00:26:29   isn't that perfectly valid that was just [TS]

00:26:31   a stylistic decision I don't I don't [TS]

00:26:34   think so I mean it different style [TS]

00:26:37   guides have different different rules [TS]

00:26:39   for that and a lot of people like to do [TS]

00:26:41   that the big one is Jesus right [TS]

00:26:43   a lot of people like to do Jesus with [TS]

00:26:44   the apostrophe after the S to say [TS]

00:26:46   something that belongs to Jesus and one [TS]

00:26:49   of one of the rules I've seen where like [TS]

00:26:51   it's like people bargaining like well if [TS]

00:26:53   you're talking about somebody from 2000 [TS]

00:26:55   years ago you're allowed to do it [TS]

00:26:56   because tradition that's how it's always [TS]

00:26:57   been written but really everything [TS]

00:26:59   should be a positivist I am big on Jay [TS]

00:27:01   OBS apostrophe s any name that ends in S [TS]

00:27:04   I always do that but apparently not [TS]

00:27:07   cnn.com or fortune or whatever this [TS]

00:27:09   articles from Sol 20 oh yeah expanding [TS]

00:27:14   the period when his death because [TS]

00:27:15   obviously he died the book was supposed [TS]

00:27:19   to be finished around June and he wasn't [TS]

00:27:21   he wasn't dead yet then so something had [TS]

00:27:24   to be added to say that to indicate that [TS]

00:27:26   eventually he died but there's more [TS]

00:27:27   there's more information now that you [TS]

00:27:29   could add I would imagine this is what I [TS]

00:27:30   imagine if Isaacson expanded it to [TS]

00:27:32   include more information on his death he [TS]

00:27:33   would just like pull quotes from the [TS]

00:27:35   that article in the New York Times from [TS]

00:27:37   from Mona Simpson like II wouldn't say [TS]

00:27:40   wouldn't do any research himself he just [TS]

00:27:42   looked what everyone else wrote like you [TS]

00:27:43   know the book would have to continue to [TS]

00:27:45   write itself yeah he wouldn't he [TS]

00:27:47   wouldn't actually want to bless that up [TS]

00:27:48   but I don't even I I think there's uh [TS]

00:27:53   and this gets back to him being [TS]

00:27:55   interested in the human the human [TS]

00:27:56   interest aspects of his life like all [TS]

00:27:58   you need to know how he died about us [TS]

00:28:00   that's like personal stuff that is not [TS]

00:28:02   it [TS]

00:28:03   does that illuminate his life more or [TS]

00:28:07   tell us more about what he did that was [TS]

00:28:09   important you know I don't not not that [TS]

00:28:13   I say oh you you complain that he didn't [TS]

00:28:15   do and I didn't have enough content and [TS]

00:28:17   now you're complaining when he wants to [TS]

00:28:18   expand it I guess it's fine but of all [TS]

00:28:20   the things that he would what I'm [TS]

00:28:21   getting as people say well is this going [TS]

00:28:23   to make you happy when he goes back and [TS]

00:28:24   does this annotated version I think [TS]

00:28:26   would be useful for for future people [TS]

00:28:29   and because if he doesn't release all [TS]

00:28:32   his source material this is a better way [TS]

00:28:34   for people to get a handle on what he [TS]

00:28:37   actually did and where he got his [TS]

00:28:39   information so they can better do more [TS]

00:28:41   scholarly books down the line but if I [TS]

00:28:45   want him to go back and flesh stuff out [TS]

00:28:46   it wouldn't be the part about when he [TS]

00:28:48   dies that's not I you know that's not [TS]

00:28:51   the most lacking part of the book of [TS]

00:28:53   anything he dwelled on the whole cancer [TS]

00:28:54   and death thing [TS]

00:28:56   it out of proportion with the other [TS]

00:28:59   portions of his life that I thought were [TS]

00:29:01   just as or more important or certainly [TS]

00:29:03   longer you know because he was dying for [TS]

00:29:05   how many years and he was you know he [TS]

00:29:07   had he was known to have cancer for how [TS]

00:29:08   many years and how many years before [TS]

00:29:10   that he didn't so it seems a little bit [TS]

00:29:12   out of proportion so we'll see what [TS]

00:29:14   comes with that I don't know if I will [TS]

00:29:16   rebuy the book in a perfect world my [TS]

00:29:19   Amazon Kindle copy would be Auto updated [TS]

00:29:22   but Amazon has no clue how to update [TS]

00:29:24   their ebooks I think they'd send you an [TS]

00:29:26   email and you have to reply in an email [TS]

00:29:28   with the word yes and it was something [TS]

00:29:29   that's like going back to the 90s like [TS]

00:29:30   month and then you have to redownload it [TS]

00:29:33   and you lose all your notes and do that [TS]

00:29:34   yeah that's a mess [TS]

00:29:38   next one this is this is a link it's [TS]

00:29:44   also follow up because it's a topic [TS]

00:29:45   we've talked about a lot this is from [TS]

00:29:47   guy English who has a website slash blog [TS]

00:29:50   called [TS]

00:29:51   I can look at the name so I don't mess [TS]

00:29:54   it up kicking bear kicking there [TS]

00:29:57   yeah I wonder visit about page where he [TS]

00:30:00   explains but that comes from it's got a [TS]

00:30:02   bear on it I don't he doesn't look like [TS]

00:30:03   he's kicking anyway he wrote what I [TS]

00:30:07   think is the the most interesting and [TS]

00:30:09   best guest so far it doesn't mean I [TS]

00:30:11   think it's accurate but it's the most [TS]

00:30:13   interesting to me because I haven't seen [TS]

00:30:14   other people dog that up of what an [TS]

00:30:16   Apple television set would be like he [TS]

00:30:17   said it's called how I'd build an Apple [TS]

00:30:19   television set did you read this one I [TS]

00:30:22   did so here's here's what I thought with [TS]

00:30:25   really we've been talking about does [TS]

00:30:27   Apple make a television set itself did [TS]

00:30:30   they just make the box do they make both [TS]

00:30:32   if you may you know if you make the set [TS]

00:30:35   how do you upgrade the thing in it are [TS]

00:30:37   they separate but then it would be too [TS]

00:30:38   many wires you know but Apple want to [TS]

00:30:42   make the TV set because is this more [TS]

00:30:43   expensive product so the the profit [TS]

00:30:45   would be large around all these things [TS]

00:30:46   we talked about in past shows so here's [TS]

00:30:49   this very interesting idea so you've got [TS]

00:30:51   the television set the the screen and it [TS]

00:30:55   would just be one wire coming out of [TS]

00:30:56   that screen which would be the power [TS]

00:30:57   cable this is a lot like the original 22 [TS]

00:31:01   inch Apple Cinema Display which just had [TS]

00:31:03   one wire poking out of the back of my [TS]

00:31:05   most elemental monitor Apple had made to [TS]

00:31:08   that point possibly ever [TS]

00:31:09   and that one wire poking out of the back [TS]

00:31:11   of it was an ad seaport which which you [TS]

00:31:13   would plug into the back here computer [TS]

00:31:14   and that would provide power and the [TS]

00:31:15   video signal and everything so this case [TS]

00:31:16   there will be one cord coming out of the [TS]

00:31:19   back of this television and it would be [TS]

00:31:21   a power plug that plugs in your wall I [TS]

00:31:22   sit so that that satisfies one of [TS]

00:31:26   Apple's simplistic things and also he I [TS]

00:31:28   don't think he mentions this but I also [TS]

00:31:30   assume there's no other places to plug [TS]

00:31:32   things into this television it is like [TS]

00:31:34   just you can tune pictures in your head [TS]

00:31:36   like a perfectly elegant simple probably [TS]

00:31:40   aluminum backed screen with a power cord [TS]

00:31:44   and a stand and that's all alright and [TS]

00:31:47   which you wouldn't just by that though [TS]

00:31:49   because then you know if it just is a [TS]

00:31:50   plug how doesn't do anything right right [TS]

00:31:52   it would also come with a little Apple [TS]

00:31:53   TV box which would look kind of similar [TS]

00:31:55   to the one now maybe a little bit [TS]

00:31:56   different but it's a separate box and [TS]

00:31:58   that separate box would not connect to [TS]

00:32:00   the television with a wire so the [TS]

00:32:02   separate box obviously had to have a [TS]

00:32:03   power plug but it would communicate with [TS]

00:32:06   the television set wirelessly I think he [TS]

00:32:08   says did he say Bluetooth or maybe Wi-Fi [TS]

00:32:10   no I think he says Wi-Fi some wire some [TS]

00:32:13   standard wireless technology that has [TS]

00:32:14   sufficient bandwidth for high-definition [TS]

00:32:15   video and and Wi-Fi qualifies and they [TS]

00:32:20   would probably you'd probably have it [TS]

00:32:21   somewhere in the same room as a TV or if [TS]

00:32:23   not near it or whatever now here's where [TS]

00:32:26   I think it gets interesting well one one [TS]

00:32:29   place it gets interesting is how he [TS]

00:32:31   envisions the little box getting onto [TS]

00:32:37   your Wi-Fi network and he brought this [TS]

00:32:40   up because of some things he was reading [TS]

00:32:41   about Bluetooth 4.0 and the chip is [TS]

00:32:44   apparently in the iPhone 4s but the [TS]

00:32:47   support is in the OS yet so apples [TS]

00:32:48   getting hardware and software vendors [TS]

00:32:51   ready for a Bluetooth 4.0 which I'm [TS]

00:32:54   assuming in a future iOS update will be [TS]

00:32:55   enabled with my iPhone for us and one of [TS]

00:32:59   the one of the things that was talked [TS]

00:33:01   about in these articles but about that [TS]

00:33:02   is the the idea that a device a new [TS]

00:33:06   Apple device that you bring into your [TS]

00:33:08   home and turn on and it wants to get on [TS]

00:33:09   your Wi-Fi network instead of you having [TS]

00:33:12   to say like pick your SSID from a pop up [TS]

00:33:15   menu or type in the name of it and then [TS]

00:33:17   type in the password for your Wi-Fi [TS]

00:33:19   network that you'll remember you know [TS]

00:33:21   and that whole process of getting a [TS]

00:33:24   device on your network I don't know how [TS]

00:33:25   many times you've done this but like [TS]

00:33:26   I've done it with my we did you get a [TS]

00:33:27   deal it's an hassle and it's not it's [TS]

00:33:31   not a great even for people who know [TS]

00:33:32   what they're doing getting my Tivo on [TS]

00:33:34   the wireless network it's just always a [TS]

00:33:35   hassle because each device has its own [TS]

00:33:37   little interface especially if it's a TV [TS]

00:33:38   device we're using a little remote [TS]

00:33:39   control that to try to enter your Wi-Fi [TS]

00:33:41   password and God forbid you change your [TS]

00:33:43   Wi-Fi Pepperidge forget the book forget [TS]

00:33:45   to change the password on the TiVo [TS]

00:33:47   upstairs and realize two weeks later [TS]

00:33:49   that it hasn't beginning program info [TS]

00:33:50   you know are doing it on your wii your [TS]

00:33:52   playstation or anything like that it's [TS]

00:33:54   just a hassle and that's for us if we [TS]

00:33:56   know what we're doing we know there was [TS]

00:33:57   in you know weapon WPA and wpa2 and MAC [TS]

00:34:00   address valid like we know about this [TS]

00:34:02   stuff and it's still annoying so people [TS]

00:34:04   who don't know I just you know that's [TS]

00:34:05   why I fear sometimes recommending a [TS]

00:34:07   hardware device to somebody like oh yeah [TS]

00:34:09   you should go get one of these things [TS]

00:34:10   just envision them taking this thing [TS]

00:34:12   home and opening it up and being like [TS]

00:34:14   alright so how do I get to the Internet [TS]

00:34:18   right do we have it says something about [TS]

00:34:21   Wi-Fi do I have that and you know they [TS]

00:34:23   just got whatever you know the cable [TS]

00:34:24   company came and installed the router [TS]

00:34:25   and like maybe they don't have anything [TS]

00:34:27   that's wireless or maybe they just have [TS]

00:34:28   their phones but they always use on 3G [TS]

00:34:30   you have no idea what's going on in [TS]

00:34:31   people's houses and it's a big hassle [TS]

00:34:32   and this is exactly something you think [TS]

00:34:34   Apple would want not to deal with you [TS]

00:34:37   want customers not to deal with so since [TS]

00:34:40   Apple has all these different things [TS]

00:34:41   saying well you bring an Apple device [TS]

00:34:42   into your home and what it would do is [TS]

00:34:43   look around and interrogate the other [TS]

00:34:46   Apple devices that are already on your [TS]

00:34:48   network and ask them what's the Wi-Fi [TS]

00:34:50   connection info here right what do I do [TS]

00:34:52   yeah help me out yeah and it can do that [TS]

00:34:55   because you know it's got its got a [TS]

00:34:57   Bonjour thing where it can a [TS]

00:34:58   discoverability and you can have you [TS]

00:35:00   know well-known ports & Demons listening [TS]

00:35:02   on these other devices talk to it and [TS]

00:35:04   it's tough to be some authentication [TS]

00:35:05   it's not like you could just bring into [TS]

00:35:06   a device into your house and say oh I'm [TS]

00:35:07   automatically on your network haha [TS]

00:35:09   because that's you know a horrible [TS]

00:35:10   security hole but what it would do it an [TS]

00:35:12   example it gives here is that you plug [TS]

00:35:14   in the Apple TV thing and then say it [TS]

00:35:16   would find your iPhone and it would pop [TS]

00:35:17   up a little notification on your iPhone [TS]

00:35:19   and says hey it looks like this new [TS]

00:35:20   Apple TV device in the house and it [TS]

00:35:21   wants on the network should we let it [TS]

00:35:23   and you just say yes and wherever that [TS]

00:35:25   is it's a that comes up on your Mac on [TS]

00:35:27   your on your iPod on your iPhone any [TS]

00:35:29   Apple device that could be found [TS]

00:35:31   knows the answers to these questions of [TS]

00:35:32   how to get on my Wi-Fi network on that [TS]

00:35:35   device it will pop up something that [TS]

00:35:37   says someone's asking together network [TS]

00:35:39   should I let it yes or no and if you say [TS]

00:35:40   yes you've given permission to this [TS]

00:35:43   thing to get on your network uh it will [TS]

00:35:45   say okay you know it's like the buddy [TS]

00:35:47   system it's like a buddy system yeah [TS]

00:35:49   and it would say okay I'll tell this [TS]

00:35:50   device how to do and it would send the [TS]

00:35:51   device okay here's here's the SSID [TS]

00:35:53   here's the password here's the [TS]

00:35:54   encryption you should use you know would [TS]

00:35:55   just tell the information and this is I [TS]

00:35:57   think this is a great idea I assume [TS]

00:35:59   Apple will do it I assume everyone will [TS]

00:36:01   eventually do it at the camp but Apple [TS]

00:36:03   is uniquely positioned to do it because [TS]

00:36:04   a household with the Apple TV device [TS]

00:36:06   especially at this point is very likely [TS]

00:36:07   to have an iPhone a Mac and iPad and [TS]

00:36:11   iPod Touch one of those things somewhere [TS]

00:36:13   already on the Wi-Fi network that was [TS]

00:36:14   put on the old-fashioned way right [TS]

00:36:16   doesn't help the guy who gets Apple TV [TS]

00:36:19   is their very first Apple device they [TS]

00:36:20   still have to go through the same you [TS]

00:36:22   know getting on your Wi-Fi networks or [TS]

00:36:23   whatever but it's something they can do [TS]

00:36:25   to help and the second thing that I [TS]

00:36:28   think is really interesting about this [TS]

00:36:29   that I hadn't heard read anywhere else [TS]

00:36:31   and I think is a great way to cut [TS]

00:36:35   through this thing is that the other [TS]

00:36:37   thing on the back of the Apple TV box [TS]

00:36:39   are HDMI ports and their inputs not [TS]

00:36:42   outputs so there's no inputs on the [TS]

00:36:44   television but these inputs on the Apple [TS]

00:36:46   TV box I think that's a nice division of [TS]

00:36:49   labor where the screen is just a screen [TS]

00:36:51   that presumably you wouldn't replace a [TS]

00:36:52   lot that's like oh the people don't [TS]

00:36:53   replace their TVs a lot and it's just [TS]

00:36:55   literally just a screen and not putting [TS]

00:36:58   stuff on the back of it gets you out of [TS]

00:37:00   the thing we're like oh I bought an HDTV [TS]

00:37:02   in in 2001 but doesn't have HDMI in the [TS]

00:37:05   back I'm sorry if I got that date wrong [TS]

00:37:06   every r1 HDMI became common on the back [TS]

00:37:08   it's got a component video and that's it [TS]

00:37:09   for a long time there were HD [TS]

00:37:10   televisions without HDMI because HDMI [TS]

00:37:12   hadn't been invented and then there's [TS]

00:37:14   OHP mi 1.4 vs. 1.0 and one can't carry [TS]

00:37:19   Ethernet over it or one doesn't do HDCP [TS]

00:37:21   the right way or support the right you [TS]

00:37:23   know all that stuff all the reasons you [TS]

00:37:25   might replace the television set are [TS]

00:37:28   tied to things that are on the back of [TS]

00:37:31   the televisions that are inside the [TS]

00:37:32   television set to become obsolete and [TS]

00:37:35   that doesn't happen quickly but it does [TS]

00:37:36   happen so if you just make a screen like [TS]

00:37:38   a display the only thing that can change [TS]

00:37:40   that is well there's a new screen [TS]

00:37:41   technology that's better than this or [TS]

00:37:43   your thing like burns out of bricks [TS]

00:37:44   something right so by getting all that [TS]

00:37:47   stuff off and just having the power plug [TS]

00:37:48   you're allowed to have the big expensive [TS]

00:37:50   you know one thousand two thousand [TS]

00:37:52   dollar screen depending on how big it is [TS]

00:37:54   for a long time like a television and [TS]

00:37:56   you put the stuff that might that needs [TS]

00:37:59   to be replaced HDMI inputs maybe HDMI [TS]

00:38:02   gets replaced with like you know [TS]

00:38:03   Thunderbolt or something in the future [TS]

00:38:04   god knows the the CPU that's in there [TS]

00:38:09   that gets better every year the amount [TS]

00:38:10   of RAM the OS that it runs you know you [TS]

00:38:12   will replace your little Apple TV box [TS]

00:38:14   but you will not replace the television [TS]

00:38:16   and having the inputs in the back means [TS]

00:38:18   that you're not signing up for this [TS]

00:38:20   Apple only lifestyle we're like oh what [TS]

00:38:22   I need I need this thing to replace all [TS]

00:38:25   of my content because presumably what [TS]

00:38:27   you could plug into those HDMI ports are [TS]

00:38:29   the output from your TiVo the output [TS]

00:38:31   from your cable box the output from your [TS]

00:38:33   satellite system right [TS]

00:38:35   then that would go through the Apple TV [TS]

00:38:37   an Apple TV be the weight point for it [TS]

00:38:40   but you could still use your Apple TV [TS]

00:38:42   that you wouldn't you wouldn't need [TS]

00:38:43   Apple TV to completely replace your [TS]

00:38:46   viewing experience it would just be a [TS]

00:38:48   supplement to the same way it is now now [TS]

00:38:49   it's kind of reverse where you take the [TS]

00:38:51   Apple TV and you plug it into input [TS]

00:38:52   number two three or four on the back of [TS]

00:38:54   your existing TV and all the other stuff [TS]

00:38:55   we're plugging the other inputs and out [TS]

00:38:56   saying move all the inputs to the Apple [TS]

00:38:57   TV get your Apple TV screen and I think [TS]

00:39:03   that's a nice division of labor in terms [TS]

00:39:05   of recognizing the fact that Apple won't [TS]

00:39:08   have enough content on day one to [TS]

00:39:09   replace everyone's entertainment needs [TS]

00:39:12   immediately right so you have to provide [TS]

00:39:15   some path forward to the future but it [TS]

00:39:17   does make the little box kind of a [TS]

00:39:19   central controlling place for all your [TS]

00:39:21   other stuff and it also bypass like well [TS]

00:39:23   you know I still like a DVR I want to [TS]

00:39:25   record stuff Apple's not going to make a [TS]

00:39:26   DVR fine still have your DVR you know [TS]

00:39:29   you're it's connected to it makes the [TS]

00:39:31   Apple TV central it's not the omnivorous [TS]

00:39:33   box that I was talking about but it [TS]

00:39:34   makes the the Apple TV the central [TS]

00:39:37   device in your entertainment stack [TS]

00:39:38   simply because everything goes through [TS]

00:39:39   it you know even if it's psychological [TS]

00:39:42   right it comes like I'm I use Apple TV I [TS]

00:39:45   don't watch TV and yeah I can see my [TS]

00:39:46   cable and my other stuff there but [TS]

00:39:49   really I'm using Apple TV it's it's the [TS]

00:39:51   main is the hub of my entertainment [TS]

00:39:52   center and then there's a bit in here [TS]

00:39:55   about the remote having a little touch [TS]

00:39:56   control on it to swipe around instead of [TS]

00:39:59   a bunch of buttons I found that less [TS]

00:40:00   convincing I think we're all not that I [TS]

00:40:03   think it's not going to happen or [TS]

00:40:04   anything I just think that that's only a [TS]

00:40:06   small incremental step over having a [TS]

00:40:07   four-way button and you're saying you [TS]

00:40:09   know the Siri thing let's got it just [TS]

00:40:11   got one little thing on it where you can [TS]

00:40:12   swipe around it works kind of like a [TS]

00:40:13   five-way type thing but if you press and [TS]

00:40:14   hold it becomes serine you're talking to [TS]

00:40:16   a little Mike and we want to talk about [TS]

00:40:18   that before you know show me the latest [TS]

00:40:21   episode of whatever thing you're doing [TS]

00:40:23   and it's easier than going through a [TS]

00:40:24   bunch of menus systems so kudos the guy [TS]

00:40:27   English for providing I think is the [TS]

00:40:29   best isn't the best completely [TS]

00:40:32   speculative take on Apple television [TS]

00:40:38   it's an Isis the thing I've ever heard [TS]

00:40:41   you say not true about anybody or [TS]

00:40:44   anything ever no no it's true yeah oh I [TS]

00:40:50   mean what do you think of that does that [TS]

00:40:51   sound set is that nice Apple I do the [TS]

00:40:54   Apple keep the idea you've heard it's [TS]

00:40:56   the best one I've heard this week this [TS]

00:40:58   week that you're right you're right they [TS]

00:41:00   do keep coming but I hear the same [TS]

00:41:01   things oh you know hear the same thing I [TS]

00:41:02   sell Siri you be able to talk to it and [TS]

00:41:04   then it's magic and or are they don't [TS]

00:41:07   have enough content they won't make a TV [TS]

00:41:08   they will people don't buy it you know [TS]

00:41:10   the arguments keep going around and [TS]

00:41:12   around this is the first concrete [TS]

00:41:15   proposal that addresses some of those [TS]

00:41:16   concerns not really the input one but at [TS]

00:41:21   the very least the whole why would Apple [TS]

00:41:23   ever make a television set and how is [TS]

00:41:24   that even feasible all right so how are [TS]

00:41:31   you doing today Jon I'm okay okay maybe [TS]

00:41:36   we ought to take a quick sponsor break [TS]

00:41:38   give a chance to capture good idea I'll [TS]

00:41:40   take a dream only been talking for 40 [TS]

00:41:42   minutes straight all right all right you [TS]

00:41:45   know I didn't want to hear on a roll [TS]

00:41:48   first sponsors harvest that was just [TS]

00:41:51   using it today I use these guys like [TS]

00:41:53   crazy this is great I love this service [TS]

00:41:55   it's harvest it's painless time tracking [TS]

00:41:58   and invoicing companies like like I was [TS]

00:42:01   like 5x5 we use it happy cog uses it [TS]

00:42:03   sure you've heard of Volkswagen they use [TS]

00:42:06   it lots of companies and what is it it's [TS]

00:42:08   a painless way to track time and keep [TS]

00:42:10   track of your project budgets [TS]

00:42:12   you send your clients a professional [TS]

00:42:14   invoices you can get at em via email you [TS]

00:42:16   can do these the PDF things are to just [TS]

00:42:18   get give them access on the web they can [TS]

00:42:19   see it it'll lets you accept online [TS]

00:42:22   credit card and check payments and more [TS]

00:42:23   and they have a free companion iPhone [TS]

00:42:27   app they've got an Android app for you [TS]

00:42:29   john siracusa they have built-in [TS]

00:42:32   functions that lets you track time and [TS]

00:42:34   expenses on the go so john syracuse it [TS]

00:42:36   goes out to WWDC he goes he sits down to [TS]

00:42:39   eat his whopper and he realizes this is [TS]

00:42:41   to count against my per diem but I'll [TS]

00:42:44   never remember the receipt so what does [TS]

00:42:46   he do [TS]

00:42:47   pulls out his iPhone or isn't access to [TS]

00:42:50   whatever it is he takes a picture of [TS]

00:42:52   their seat uploads it right in the app [TS]

00:42:54   this integrates with all your favorite [TS]

00:42:56   does small business apps like Google [TS]

00:42:57   Apps Basecamp here's what you do you [TS]

00:43:00   tried for free for 30 days you don't [TS]

00:43:02   give them your credit card you don't [TS]

00:43:03   sign up for anything long-term you just [TS]

00:43:06   go to get harvest comm slash 5x5 this is [TS]

00:43:09   a 30-day free trial you use the whole [TS]

00:43:11   thing [TS]

00:43:11   use the app the way you want to use it [TS]

00:43:13   and after the trial period comes to an [TS]

00:43:15   end and you say I can't live without [TS]

00:43:16   this you enter in this this code and the [TS]

00:43:19   code will be I in the show notes and the [TS]

00:43:21   code is five by five TV you get 50% off [TS]

00:43:25   your first month you get to do this [TS]

00:43:26   though by January 31st 2012 so you got [TS]

00:43:29   it got more than a month come on [TS]

00:43:31   anyway get harvest calm / 5x5 thanks [TS]

00:43:35   very much [TS]

00:43:35   to them for making this show possible [TS]

00:43:38   you can use that app aren't you happy [TS]

00:43:40   cog to Volkswagen that is a span of [TS]

00:43:43   client expensive I think 5 by 5's dead [TS]

00:43:47   center right in the middle there no [TS]

00:43:48   you're you're very close to the happy [TS]

00:43:49   cog again not the Volkswagen no not the [TS]

00:43:52   Volkswagen AG whatever the initials are [TS]

00:43:55   after that holding company that owns [TS]

00:43:56   vowed outing Lamborghini and pony I need [TS]

00:43:59   a holding company yeah anyway harvest [TS]

00:44:03   love those guys oh and we also want to [TS]

00:44:05   mention that our our show notes which [TS]

00:44:07   Jon circus has been referring to [TS]

00:44:10   repeatedly are brought to you in part by [TS]

00:44:13   uh the lovely ladies at help spot calm [TS]

00:44:16   the best helpdesk software in the world [TS]

00:44:22   what's next you get more I do we done [TS]

00:44:24   shows no no no I've got more now I'm [TS]

00:44:27   fearing that I'm not also not gonna get [TS]

00:44:29   the thing that I left that well we'll [TS]

00:44:30   get to the thing the thing things see [TS]

00:44:32   how long we'll see how long the section [TS]

00:44:34   we get to it so one of the advantages I [TS]

00:44:37   always complain about having a Friday [TS]

00:44:39   slot even though you know it is the big [TS]

00:44:42   slot be honest well realistically [TS]

00:44:44   speaking it doesn't matter because I all [TS]

00:44:46   everyone else gets to go before me well [TS]

00:44:47   it depends on what your frame of [TS]

00:44:49   reference is just because you [TS]

00:44:50   arbitrarily decide the week begins on [TS]

00:44:52   Sunday but in reality the business week [TS]

00:44:54   does kind of begin there and think there [TS]

00:44:56   is a weekly cycle to news and events so [TS]

00:44:58   sometimes I get annoyed that other [TS]

00:45:00   people get first crack at the topics [TS]

00:45:02   that I'm interested in on other shows [TS]

00:45:04   that I listen to I called man I wanted [TS]

00:45:06   to talk about that now he's going to say [TS]

00:45:07   everything I wanted to say and I'm going [TS]

00:45:08   to be demotivated but the advantage is [TS]

00:45:10   that they can say things that give me [TS]

00:45:13   ideas for stuff talked about on my show [TS]

00:45:15   so that happened this week when I was [TS]

00:45:18   listening to the talk show where John [TS]

00:45:22   was talking about his appearance on the [TS]

00:45:24   verge right and one of the topics that [TS]

00:45:28   was brought up by Joshua Topolsky and [TS]

00:45:30   that you guys talked about on the show [TS]

00:45:32   was the angle the Joshua seems to have [TS]

00:45:37   when interviewing John Gruber on the [TS]

00:45:38   verge was about fanboy ISM and bias was [TS]

00:45:42   one one aspect of it anyway [TS]

00:45:44   and as an aspect that you guys talked [TS]

00:45:46   about and it's something I want to talk [TS]

00:45:50   about in relation to John for a while [TS]

00:45:51   but didn't want to like bring it up out [TS]

00:45:52   of blue because it would seem like it [TS]

00:45:54   would seem like I was doing with Josh we [TS]

00:45:55   was doing which was like of all the [TS]

00:45:57   things talked about uses but you want to [TS]

00:45:58   concentrate on this is the most [TS]

00:46:00   interesting thing about John Gruber you [TS]

00:46:01   wanna you want to talk about bias and [TS]

00:46:03   stuff like that but since he already did [TS]

00:46:04   it you guys already talked about it now [TS]

00:46:06   I can I can frame it as follow up on a a [TS]

00:46:08   section that I heard you talk about Edie [TS]

00:46:14   River River Gruber started by saying [TS]

00:46:16   that like it doesn't like the term [TS]

00:46:17   fanboy visits it's dismissive and it's [TS]

00:46:19   right it's it's it's something you keep [TS]

00:46:22   there's no rebuttal for that it sort of [TS]

00:46:23   is dismissive of also if if somebody who [TS]

00:46:26   is an Apple is writing something is [TS]

00:46:29   known to write things that tend to be [TS]

00:46:31   more positive about [TS]

00:46:33   Apple stuff regardless of the reason [TS]

00:46:35   whether it's true or not if you label [TS]

00:46:38   that person or what that person does a [TS]

00:46:40   fanboy that's it's very dismissive this [TS]

00:46:44   is his argument and I do agree with it [TS]

00:46:46   is that it's very dismissive of pretty [TS]

00:46:49   much anything the person does you say oh [TS]

00:46:51   well he's he's just an Apple fanboy so [TS]

00:46:53   it's like saying well we can disregard [TS]

00:46:56   what he says because he's deluded and [TS]

00:46:59   you can throw the whole argument away [TS]

00:47:02   even if it's a hundred percent true and [TS]

00:47:04   perfectly valid and supported doesn't [TS]

00:47:06   matter [TS]

00:47:06   he's a fanboy that's what John was [TS]

00:47:09   complaining but I think and I hope I'm [TS]

00:47:11   repeating and basically anything like [TS]

00:47:13   this like the word fanboy or whatever [TS]

00:47:14   once you're once you're saying what [TS]

00:47:16   somebody is you're not talking about [TS]

00:47:18   what they do right you're not you're not [TS]

00:47:20   addressing their actions or their [TS]

00:47:22   statements you're saying regardless of [TS]

00:47:24   their actions or statements they are [TS]

00:47:25   this thing it's it's a state of being [TS]

00:47:27   right that negates all their actions so [TS]

00:47:29   it's like oh it's not even worth talking [TS]

00:47:31   about their actions because he is this [TS]

00:47:32   thing yeah and this thing inherently [TS]

00:47:35   is not worth you know listening to and [TS]

00:47:38   that's that's just completely unfair [TS]

00:47:40   cause it out the window and facili right [TS]

00:47:42   but what most people are trying to say [TS]

00:47:44   by saying someone is a fanboy is they're [TS]

00:47:46   saying the things that they do make me [TS]

00:47:49   think that they are this this bad thing [TS]

00:47:53   that is fanboys it that it only thinks [TS]

00:47:55   good things why not I don't know I don't [TS]

00:47:58   never liked the word fanboy because it's [TS]

00:48:00   kind of silly the word I always come to [TS]

00:48:03   when I think about evaluating what [TS]

00:48:07   somebody says I don't want to really [TS]

00:48:09   don't want to get into politics I'm [TS]

00:48:10   going to try very hard to avoid politics [TS]

00:48:12   in the discussion so we'll just talk [TS]

00:48:13   about tech blogs I've been reading [TS]

00:48:14   somebody everything somebody tech tech [TS]

00:48:16   blog to see if I can see where they're [TS]

00:48:20   coming from [TS]

00:48:21   or whether I think what what is [TS]

00:48:24   motivated what they're saying or what [TS]

00:48:25   kind of things can I expect this person [TS]

00:48:27   to say so on and so forth and my [TS]

00:48:29   favorite favorite word about this is [TS]

00:48:30   partisan which again might remind you of [TS]

00:48:32   politics it does is that not just a [TS]

00:48:35   purely political word I looked up the [TS]

00:48:37   definition hoping the definition would [TS]

00:48:39   reinforce my impression of the word [TS]

00:48:40   partisan but it's definition is kind of [TS]

00:48:42   is vague you know uh let me actually [TS]

00:48:48   so the app little apple dictionary is [TS]

00:48:50   just I mean if partisan means what you [TS]

00:48:52   think it means when you say something is [TS]

00:48:54   partisan it's prejudiced in favor of a [TS]

00:48:56   particular cause well that's a very big [TS]

00:48:59   you know definitional matter or the [TS]

00:49:01   number one definition is a noun is a [TS]

00:49:02   strong support of a party cause or [TS]

00:49:04   person party is thrown in there again [TS]

00:49:05   because of the political connection I'm [TS]

00:49:06   assuming that's what they mean [TS]

00:49:07   right I also like the definition number [TS]

00:49:10   two a member of an armed group formed to [TS]

00:49:12   fight serially against an occupying [TS]

00:49:13   force in particular one operating in [TS]

00:49:15   enemy occupied Yugoslavia Italy and [TS]

00:49:17   parts of Europe More war - that's not [TS]

00:49:18   what I mean but I I think of partisan I [TS]

00:49:25   use that word because in politics there [TS]

00:49:27   are many partisans and I heard this I [TS]

00:49:29   wish I could remember this many many [TS]

00:49:31   years ago her this big philosophical [TS]

00:49:32   debate about different people's [TS]

00:49:35   positions and talking heads on [TS]

00:49:36   television as he relates to politics and [TS]

00:49:39   the distinction was always about whether [TS]

00:49:41   someone's a partisan or not and that [TS]

00:49:43   would color how you might view what they [TS]

00:49:45   what they say right and here's here's my [TS]

00:49:49   definition of a partisan attack and [TS]

00:49:51   politics or anything like that it's [TS]

00:49:54   somebody on a particular topic who [TS]

00:49:56   starts from a premise of whatever that [TS]

00:50:00   premise may be the premises chocolate [TS]

00:50:01   cake is good and then what they do is [TS]

00:50:05   gather all evidence and report all facts [TS]

00:50:08   in support of this premise but minimize [TS]

00:50:11   or ignore facts that are countered to it [TS]

00:50:13   people they're allergic to chocolate or [TS]

00:50:14   whatever I'm trying to pick a cell [TS]

00:50:15   examples of people don't go nuts pen [TS]

00:50:17   right in politics I think we can all [TS]

00:50:19   recognize a partisan like when you see [TS]

00:50:21   how I'm doing it hariom when you see [TS]

00:50:23   someone on television I was a talking [TS]

00:50:25   head and you know before they open the [TS]

00:50:27   mouth what they're going to say what [TS]

00:50:28   they're going to say is they're in favor [TS]

00:50:30   of X and they're against Y and there's [TS]

00:50:31   nothing this person is going to say ever [TS]

00:50:33   that will it be counter to that are you [TS]

00:50:38   know someone on television talk radio [TS]

00:50:40   host some people you like I can help but [TS]

00:50:44   I got it I'm sorry guys got to do it [TS]

00:50:46   Rush Limbaugh all right there's someone [TS]

00:50:48   on talk radio right-wing talk radio Rush [TS]

00:50:52   Limbaugh's thing his shtick his premise [TS]

00:50:54   is his whole thing is based on the idea [TS]

00:50:57   that he's right [TS]

00:51:00   and and that other people are wrong [TS]

00:51:01   about you know I'm not gonna go into [TS]

00:51:03   individual issues right so even if it [TS]

00:51:06   when he says you know I was wrong on [TS]

00:51:08   this he's always going to frame it in a [TS]

00:51:09   way that him admitting him being wrong [TS]

00:51:12   is him being magnanimous and showing you [TS]

00:51:15   know like everything is about how right [TS]

00:51:17   there and you know what they're going to [TS]

00:51:18   say you know you know they're going to [TS]

00:51:20   be in favor of something about some [TS]

00:51:23   particular thing it against something [TS]

00:51:24   else and it's just never going to change [TS]

00:51:25   you're not going to turn around and the [TS]

00:51:26   next day they're going to come you know [TS]

00:51:27   what that thing I've been against for [TS]

00:51:29   years and years actually I changed my [TS]

00:51:30   mind it's not going to happen they are a [TS]

00:51:32   partisan they have they have they have a [TS]

00:51:34   premise and their job is every fiber of [TS]

00:51:37   their being is to support that premise [TS]

00:51:39   to do everything they can if they get [TS]

00:51:41   called on something and they do [TS]

00:51:42   something is against that premise they [TS]

00:51:43   will just construct their life their [TS]

00:51:46   show their personality that everything [TS]

00:51:48   around the idea that there's nothing [TS]

00:51:51   that can happen nothing anyone can say [TS]

00:51:52   nothing nothing no event no fact no [TS]

00:51:54   anything that can dissuade them from [TS]

00:51:56   that premise and their job is to argue [TS]

00:51:58   forcefully [TS]

00:51:59   for that premise and that that's that's [TS]

00:52:02   the most extreme case of a partisan and [TS]

00:52:04   partisans tend not to be that [TS]

00:52:06   interesting because if you know what [TS]

00:52:07   they're going to say before they say it [TS]

00:52:09   and there you see these people and news [TS]

00:52:09   programs all the time like you know this [TS]

00:52:11   guy's going to come out you know the [TS]

00:52:13   ACLU guy you know he's going to be I'm [TS]

00:52:16   trying to flip it around people here you [TS]

00:52:18   know he's going to be in favor of you [TS]

00:52:20   know against anything that stops [TS]

00:52:22   anyone's freedom or the libertarian guy [TS]

00:52:24   or whatever you know what position [TS]

00:52:25   they're going to knock out the ACLU guys [TS]

00:52:26   got not going to go you know what I [TS]

00:52:28   think you're right in this particular [TS]

00:52:29   case in a specific instance the good of [TS]

00:52:31   the many outweighs the good of the [TS]

00:52:33   individual and this is this is a the [TS]

00:52:35   single quoting stock again this is the [TS]

00:52:37   right there should be compromise [TS]

00:52:39   slightly in the specific case they're [TS]

00:52:40   not going to do that no like right so it [TS]

00:52:44   there is and people you might think I'm [TS]

00:52:46   going to say well that's that's a [TS]

00:52:47   dishonorable thing to do to be a [TS]

00:52:48   partisan is dishonorable because you're [TS]

00:52:51   not being is the word that you guys [TS]

00:52:53   talked about you're not being objective [TS]

00:52:54   you're not you're not if you can't if [TS]

00:52:59   the facts can't change your opinion then [TS]

00:53:00   what good you're obviously thinking [TS]

00:53:01   about this issue all right I think there [TS]

00:53:04   is value in partisans and it's something [TS]

00:53:06   what partisans have to say because since [TS]

00:53:10   their entire life is dedicated to [TS]

00:53:11   forming the strongest possible [TS]

00:53:13   even in favor of their premise if you're [TS]

00:53:16   interested in what are the strongest [TS]

00:53:18   arguments in favor of this premise [TS]

00:53:20   parson is probably the guy to go to [TS]

00:53:22   possess all they do all day is figure [TS]

00:53:24   out how can I convince people chocolate [TS]

00:53:25   cake is awesome what what evidence can I [TS]

00:53:27   gather to that end how can I show people [TS]

00:53:29   than anyone who says the child cake is [TS]

00:53:30   not good or wrong right and it doesn't [TS]

00:53:36   that person hasn't particularly balanced [TS]

00:53:38   and you can't take what everything they [TS]

00:53:39   say at face value but if you're looking [TS]

00:53:41   for what is the strongest argument in [TS]

00:53:42   favor of chocolate cake a chocolate cake [TS]

00:53:44   partisan is a great source for that [TS]

00:53:45   information now getting back to Gruber [TS]

00:53:50   for a second one of the things he said [TS]

00:53:53   in the show they says two people who [TS]

00:53:55   would call him a fanboy and stuff like [TS]

00:53:56   that is tell mewhere tell me what I [TS]

00:54:00   wrote that was wrong instead of just you [TS]

00:54:02   know instead of telling me what I am I'm [TS]

00:54:04   a fanboy or you know I'm whatever look [TS]

00:54:07   at my actual actions look at the words I [TS]

00:54:09   actually wrote and show me which one of [TS]

00:54:10   the ones that I wrote you think is wrong [TS]

00:54:12   instead of just talking about Who I am [TS]

00:54:14   and why that negates everything I will [TS]

00:54:16   ever say and if we think back to what I [TS]

00:54:20   just talked about as a partisan you if [TS]

00:54:24   you are like a a good partisan or moron [TS]

00:54:28   or honorable partisan it's very it's [TS]

00:54:30   very possible that you will never say [TS]

00:54:33   anything untrue and still be it still be [TS]

00:54:37   a partisan like what you've done is [TS]

00:54:40   gather the strongest most valid [TS]

00:54:42   arguments supported by actual facts in [TS]

00:54:44   favor of your position uh and so there's [TS]

00:54:48   nothing when you do that thing tell me [TS]

00:54:49   tell me what I wrote that was wrong [TS]

00:54:50   nobody can find one because there's none [TS]

00:54:52   everything you said any facts you [TS]

00:54:53   presented was you're not misrepresenting [TS]

00:54:55   facts you're not distorting the truth [TS]

00:54:56   you're not you know you are just simply [TS]

00:55:00   picking the facts that support your [TS]

00:55:02   position and providing arguments in [TS]

00:55:03   support of it so I think although [TS]

00:55:07   although that's a good way to switch the [TS]

00:55:10   focus from what am I to talk about what [TS]

00:55:14   I'm actually doing I don't think that it [TS]

00:55:19   refutes the premise that you might be a [TS]

00:55:21   partisan because you just might be the [TS]

00:55:24   best partisan ever or a very good one [TS]

00:55:25   and you an honest one that doesn't [TS]

00:55:27   misrepresent the facts but nevertheless [TS]

00:55:29   ignores facts that are countered your [TS]

00:55:31   thing and the worst sin of the partisan [TS]

00:55:32   though is that nothing could ever [TS]

00:55:34   possibly happen to change your opinion [TS]

00:55:35   and that's the one that really gets [TS]

00:55:37   people to like even though everything [TS]

00:55:39   you said was right I just have this [TS]

00:55:40   feeling that if the facts changed you [TS]

00:55:44   wouldn't change and you'd still be [TS]

00:55:45   saying exactly the same thing and people [TS]

00:55:47   lose interest in that type of thing [TS]

00:55:48   except for people just want to hear [TS]

00:55:49   their pains that go back to them and [TS]

00:55:50   there are a lot of those people but for [TS]

00:55:54   like the you know I don't know the the [TS]

00:55:57   discerning nur the people listening to [TS]

00:55:58   this show right I don't know yeah [TS]

00:56:00   critical thinkers you're much less [TS]

00:56:03   interested in somebody once you've [TS]

00:56:04   decided based on what you've seen to [TS]

00:56:06   this person that there's no fact that [TS]

00:56:08   will ever change their opinion about [TS]

00:56:09   everything they've simply they've chose [TS]

00:56:11   their premise in 1982 and they're going [TS]

00:56:13   to support till the day they die and [TS]

00:56:14   they become less interesting you're less [TS]

00:56:16   interested in what they have to say or [TS]

00:56:17   after you've heard all the strongest [TS]

00:56:18   possible are especially if the facts [TS]

00:56:19   changed drastically and they just keep [TS]

00:56:21   droning on about you know whatever it's [TS]

00:56:23   like one example I was thinking of a [TS]

00:56:25   site I don't know if these people exist [TS]

00:56:26   but say there's like a Windows Mobile [TS]

00:56:28   when wind ze enthusiastic Wincy is [TS]

00:56:31   awesome it is the best mobile operating [TS]

00:56:33   system it's going to dominate the world [TS]

00:56:34   my premise is though is that one sees [TS]

00:56:36   the future and no matter how the facts [TS]

00:56:39   change you know palm comes along is [TS]

00:56:41   doing well now wins he's still going to [TS]

00:56:42   win and then the iPhone comes along and [TS]

00:56:44   they change to Windows Mobile Windows [TS]

00:56:45   Mobile is awesome it's going to wipe out [TS]

00:56:46   the iPhone and then Windows seven comes [TS]

00:56:48   like when don't you know no matter how [TS]

00:56:50   small windows mobile market share gets [TS]

00:56:52   number two how many reviews say Windows [TS]

00:56:55   Mobile is not yet up to stuff with the [TS]

00:56:57   iPhone and stuff like that they will [TS]

00:56:58   continue you know that their opinion [TS]

00:57:00   won't change and the sneaky thing those [TS]

00:57:02   people do is like they'll switch over to [TS]

00:57:04   Windows 7 is I was always in favor of [TS]

00:57:05   Windows 7 or Windows CE sucked but you [TS]

00:57:07   know they were Windows series like the [TS]

00:57:09   facts don't change it and you're not [TS]

00:57:11   interested in listening to what that [TS]

00:57:12   person that has a sigh he's like they're [TS]

00:57:13   just stuck on this thing they're never [TS]

00:57:15   going to get over it and they're not [TS]

00:57:17   they're not giving me any new insight [TS]

00:57:19   into what's happening now they're just [TS]

00:57:20   telling me about something they picked a [TS]

00:57:22   long time ago and you go stalk that [TS]

00:57:27   objective versus fair right and groove [TS]

00:57:30   Rettig recorded that even toddlers have [TS]

00:57:32   a keen sense of fairness right as I [TS]

00:57:35   could see the other kids got something [TS]

00:57:36   they don't have yeah and fairness [TS]

00:57:39   fairness [TS]

00:57:41   kind of been co-opted by fox news's [TS]

00:57:44   their slogan fair and balanced but even [TS]

00:57:46   in all the news the big complaint about [TS]

00:57:48   all the news media is they've been [TS]

00:57:51   chastised or shamed into the idea of [TS]

00:57:53   fairness of just being well you got to [TS]

00:57:55   have a pro and a con guy for every [TS]

00:57:57   single thing and people have said that's [TS]

00:58:01   stupid the news should be more of a [TS]

00:58:04   referee and sometimes you don't need to [TS]

00:58:06   have the ante the earth is round guy on [TS]

00:58:09   TV right you can have the pro earth is [TS]

00:58:11   round guy in TV but that's too boring so [TS]

00:58:13   you need the anti earth you need the [TS]

00:58:14   Flat Earth guy mm-hmm and that's that's [TS]

00:58:16   that's fair because yeah and people say [TS]

00:58:19   oh this is this is the disease of [TS]

00:58:20   television a news media they think they [TS]

00:58:22   have to show the both sides of anything [TS]

00:58:23   even when one side is stupid I don't [TS]

00:58:27   think that's the sickness is not wanting [TS]

00:58:30   to show both sides of everything the [TS]

00:58:32   sickness in in the media this is boy [TS]

00:58:34   this is bird now going off the rails [TS]

00:58:36   here but I'll bring it back I promise [TS]

00:58:38   that the sickness in the media is not [TS]

00:58:40   having both sides of everything it's [TS]

00:58:42   being lazy about fact-checking basically [TS]

00:58:45   and I think the internet is great about [TS]

00:58:47   that whole is the internet fact-checking [TS]

00:58:48   sites you know a fact check that org but [TS]

00:58:51   what does the put is political [TS]

00:58:52   fact-checking side this whole tons of [TS]

00:58:53   fact-checking sites right and so you [TS]

00:58:55   know like if you're watching the [TS]

00:58:56   Republican debates or whatever or any [TS]

00:58:58   presidential baton stuff like that all [TS]

00:58:59   the Nerds are like after the debate is [TS]

00:59:01   over go to the fact check sites and see [TS]

00:59:03   who was lying who was mistaken about [TS]

00:59:05   something who quoted a statistic that [TS]

00:59:07   was intentionally obviously [TS]

00:59:08   intentionally misleading and when they [TS]

00:59:09   have these debates for as you said this [TS]

00:59:11   is a nice made to no I did not or you [TS]

00:59:12   voted for this no I did not find out who [TS]

00:59:14   find out what the actual facts are it [TS]

00:59:15   said that we have to wait until the [TS]

00:59:17   televised debate is over go to a website [TS]

00:59:19   and find out what those answers are you [TS]

00:59:22   know as a nerd watching this I'm like [TS]

00:59:24   why can't there be automatic real-time [TS]

00:59:26   feed from the fact-check people [TS]

00:59:28   researching is to say you know five [TS]

00:59:30   minutes ago when this guy said that [TS]

00:59:31   actually he's wrong and it really is X [TS]

00:59:33   or Y or Z right but like that's that I [TS]

00:59:35   feel like it's a responsibility of of [TS]

00:59:37   good media is to be the fact checkers [TS]

00:59:40   you're not taking sides by checking [TS]

00:59:42   facts you're just bear you know you're [TS]

00:59:43   just verifying statements and the media [TS]

00:59:45   has shied away from doing that so I [TS]

00:59:46   don't think they're see their their sin [TS]

00:59:48   is always wanting to show both sides so [TS]

00:59:50   they can't be accused of bias I think [TS]

00:59:52   their their sin is being so afraid to [TS]

00:59:54   check [TS]

00:59:55   axĂ© that if the facts all line up [TS]

00:59:56   against one side or the other then [TS]

00:59:58   they'll say oh you're biased [TS]

00:59:58   they'll say oh you're biased [TS]

01:00:00   you know because the Flat Earth guy all [TS]

01:00:03   the facts lined up against him it's like [TS]

01:00:04   well you are not being fair because you [TS]

01:00:06   totally dumped on that Flat Earth guy by [TS]

01:00:07   showing pictures of the Earth from the [TS]

01:00:09   moon showing a giant big circle thing [TS]

01:00:10   that's not fair you know and those those [TS]

01:00:14   groups other thing that a reality seems [TS]

01:00:16   to have an Apple bias so bringing this [TS]

01:00:19   back around the question the question I [TS]

01:00:21   think is does does John Gruber behave [TS]

01:00:26   like a partisan that that's that's the [TS]

01:00:30   question I would say it is John Gruber [TS]

01:00:31   partisan but I just got through saying [TS]

01:00:32   we shouldn't say well they are the are [TS]

01:00:33   are but like are you convinced from John [TS]

01:00:36   Gerber's actions that there's nothing [TS]

01:00:38   that could happen that would change this [TS]

01:00:40   position is whatever position you think [TS]

01:00:41   that these comply we'll start by saying [TS]

01:00:44   that I think tell me what I said wrote [TS]

01:00:46   that was wrong fact-checking wise I [TS]

01:00:49   think I think this is widely [TS]

01:00:51   misinterpreted when he said on the show [TS]

01:00:52   like what I'm really worried about is [TS]

01:00:53   being wrong but he didn't mean like [TS]

01:00:55   being wrong on his opinion really he [TS]

01:00:57   meant like I mean I don't know I don't [TS]

01:00:59   say we exactly William but I get the [TS]

01:01:00   impression that the thing that would [TS]

01:01:03   bother him the most is getting facts [TS]

01:01:04   wrong in a post because he feels that's [TS]

01:01:06   his responsibility find out what the [TS]

01:01:07   actual facts are don't just think don't [TS]

01:01:09   just you know he doesn't do a lot of [TS]

01:01:10   speculation about you know like find out [TS]

01:01:14   what the actual facts are and put them [TS]

01:01:16   anything and don't write something don't [TS]

01:01:17   be the guy who write something that says [TS]

01:01:18   yeah well you know this company did XY [TS]

01:01:22   and Z and they never revealed PQ and [TS]

01:01:24   find out that that's not true that they [TS]

01:01:26   really actually did do that don't check [TS]

01:01:28   your facts and if you don't have the [TS]

01:01:29   facts make it clear that you're saying [TS]

01:01:31   party X says this is true you know I I [TS]

01:01:35   get the impression that that's what he [TS]

01:01:36   means by not being wrong secondarily he [TS]

01:01:39   also means based on the facts that he's [TS]

01:01:41   gathered he believes this is what will [TS]

01:01:43   actually happen he doesn't want to be [TS]

01:01:45   wrong about that either like when he [TS]

01:01:47   says if he says the iPads gonna sell [TS]

01:01:51   like crazy and the iPad is a humongous [TS]

01:01:52   flop that would bother because he was [TS]

01:01:54   wrong about the iPad but that's clearly [TS]

01:01:55   like a prediction you know I'm [TS]

01:01:57   predicting this is gonna have all of [TS]

01:01:59   those things so I so I think that when [TS]

01:02:01   he says tell me what I wrote that was [TS]

01:02:02   wrong he means find me a fact that I got [TS]

01:02:04   wrong because if there is a fact like [TS]

01:02:06   that I I will correct it because I don't [TS]

01:02:08   want to have any correct facts on my [TS]

01:02:09   site versus someone like Rush Limbaugh [TS]

01:02:12   who does not say [TS]

01:02:13   please tell me where I was wrong [TS]

01:02:14   honestly speaking and someone says well [TS]

01:02:17   actually when you said this that's not [TS]

01:02:18   the case he's not going to take that [TS]

01:02:20   correction and apologize for the mistake [TS]

01:02:23   in the next show he's going to refute [TS]

01:02:25   the corrector in every possible way he [TS]

01:02:27   can you know misleading or you know or [TS]

01:02:31   denigrating the person who said this or [TS]

01:02:33   saying how even though he was wrong it [TS]

01:02:34   doesn't matter because larger point [TS]

01:02:35   still stands and just will not take the [TS]

01:02:38   correction at face value so yep blew it [TS]

01:02:41   you're right that's right and then will [TS]

01:02:43   not examine like okay so is that a [TS]

01:02:46   correction that that does negate my [TS]

01:02:47   point or is it just a minor correction [TS]

01:02:49   he's not intellectually honest about [TS]

01:02:50   that type of thing I think John Gruber [TS]

01:02:54   100% would be intellectually honest but [TS]

01:02:56   any correction about any fact and I [TS]

01:02:58   think he's shown that through his [TS]

01:03:00   actions that if someone corrects him on [TS]

01:03:02   something or he got something wrong he [TS]

01:03:03   says he got it wrong and apologizes for [TS]

01:03:06   it it doesn't do it in a snarky kind of [TS]

01:03:07   but you're still a jerk way he does it [TS]

01:03:10   as an apology it like because this is [TS]

01:03:12   what he's prodding himself on get [TS]

01:03:14   getting the facts right being [TS]

01:03:15   intellectually honest so Sailor crazy no [TS]

01:03:17   partisan is not intellectually honest [TS]

01:03:19   and intellectually honesty means that it [TS]

01:03:21   means that you're not you don't have [TS]

01:03:23   dogma and you know you're not worth [TS]

01:03:25   doing everything from a premise you are [TS]

01:03:27   taking all input that you can find and [TS]

01:03:30   using it to a formulate your opinion and [TS]

01:03:32   always reevaluating and so the second [TS]

01:03:34   part like side of being a partisan is [TS]

01:03:36   nothing will change your opinion and I [TS]

01:03:40   think Gruber has shown that that's not [TS]

01:03:42   the case either because there are many [TS]

01:03:45   cases where the the facts change and his [TS]

01:03:47   opinion changed on things and he will [TS]

01:03:48   write about the fact that you know [TS]

01:03:50   excuse me that now now that the facts [TS]

01:03:54   have changed I have a different stance [TS]

01:03:56   on this right even if it's just [TS]

01:03:58   something as simple as I predicted [TS]

01:03:59   something that would happen and it [TS]

01:04:00   didn't happen therefore I have to [TS]

01:04:01   reevaluate what led me to that [TS]

01:04:03   conclusion and see what I was wrong [TS]

01:04:04   about the hard thing in Gruber's case [TS]

01:04:08   which he brought up and I think he [TS]

01:04:09   should have hammered on even more is the [TS]

01:04:13   people who accused him of being a [TS]

01:04:14   partisan they believed his premise is [TS]

01:04:16   that Apple is good Apple is awesome [TS]

01:04:17   everything Apple does is great that's [TS]

01:04:19   what that's what they they believe his [TS]

01:04:20   premise when they see a he's a fanboy [TS]

01:04:22   they mean he's a partisan who believes [TS]

01:04:23   everything I will done Apple does this [TS]

01:04:25   great and will only say things in [TS]

01:04:26   supportive [TS]

01:04:27   well being great and we'll ignore all [TS]

01:04:28   the things right and the the [TS]

01:04:33   uncomfortable reality of of this premise [TS]

01:04:37   is that John Gruber started his writing [TS]

01:04:41   and from the position that it looked [TS]

01:04:44   like Apple had really great stuff that [TS]

01:04:45   he liked that he thought was better than [TS]

01:04:47   everything else and it just so happens [TS]

01:04:49   that over the next decade Apple was [TS]

01:04:50   humongously successful right you know [TS]

01:04:54   they everything about them which was up [TS]

01:04:56   up up [TS]

01:04:58   sold huge numbers of things and rude new [TS]

01:05:00   industries were critically acclaimed you [TS]

01:05:02   know just just you know for two first [TS]

01:05:04   approximation did everything right and [TS]

01:05:06   so if you think all your premises that [TS]

01:05:09   Apple does it is great at everything is [TS]

01:05:11   everything right who is it in the tech [TS]

01:05:13   industry that was doing things better [TS]

01:05:15   than Apple during it just so happens [TS]

01:05:16   that the thing you think that is it was [TS]

01:05:18   his premise is the reality Apple has [TS]

01:05:20   done really well people really like [TS]

01:05:22   their products they make a lot of money [TS]

01:05:23   they're very successful and you know is [TS]

01:05:28   it his fault that that was his premise [TS]

01:05:30   you'd have a stronger case if his [TS]

01:05:32   premise was that Apple is awesome [TS]

01:05:34   everything they make is great and [TS]

01:05:37   they're going to be massively successful [TS]

01:05:39   and he made this prediction in 1986 and [TS]

01:05:42   they they slowly almost went out of [TS]

01:05:44   business and by 1997 he was still saying [TS]

01:05:46   Apple is great they're the best company [TS]

01:05:48   in the world everything they make is [TS]

01:05:49   awesome they're not doing anything wrong [TS]

01:05:51   and you're a bunch of jerks then you'd [TS]

01:05:54   have a case but if he says that he [TS]

01:05:56   really likes Apple stuff he thinks are [TS]

01:05:58   the best products in the market and [TS]

01:06:00   Apple is fantastically successful and he [TS]

01:06:04   doesn't change his position well maybe [TS]

01:06:06   he didn't change his position because he [TS]

01:06:08   didn't see any evidence that was [TS]

01:06:09   countered to it and that burned some [TS]

01:06:12   people up to it was they don't like [TS]

01:06:12   Apple or whatever but that mean it would [TS]

01:06:15   be easier I think there would be more [TS]

01:06:17   evidence of his intellectual honesty if [TS]

01:06:19   the facts did not align right if things [TS]

01:06:22   didn't if the actual reality didn't [TS]

01:06:24   support they are right because then [TS]

01:06:26   you'd have then you'd have more cases of [TS]

01:06:28   conflict I think there have been cases [TS]

01:06:29   of conflict where he's made bad calls or [TS]

01:06:31   predicted things incorrectly and I think [TS]

01:06:34   there is evidence of him being [TS]

01:06:36   intellectually honest in that regard but [TS]

01:06:38   there's not a lot of them because for [TS]

01:06:40   the most part [TS]

01:06:40   Apple all the things that you've liked [TS]

01:06:42   have been very sickly [TS]

01:06:43   you make an interesting point and that [TS]

01:06:45   is I think and I was talking to John [TS]

01:06:47   about this a daring fireball started I [TS]

01:06:49   think in 2001 or - yeah like in that [TS]

01:06:52   time period 2000 to 2002 okay I always [TS]

01:06:56   get it confused with hyojung which I [TS]

01:06:58   started writer on the same time and when [TS]

01:07:01   it went nowhere [TS]

01:07:02   so the ganja think he should have [TS]

01:07:03   started in 2001 though with the Kubrick [TS]

01:07:05   I would have been a better opportunity [TS]

01:07:06   missed a huge opportunity missed [TS]

01:07:09   and maybe maybe people would respect him [TS]

01:07:11   a little bit more today if he had [TS]

01:07:13   something to think about [TS]

01:07:14   ah if if he had started much later it [TS]

01:07:21   will it would almost be a little bit [TS]

01:07:24   easier because as your as you mentioned [TS]

01:07:27   at that time Apple was not doing what [TS]

01:07:31   it's doing today uh it's if he had [TS]

01:07:36   started it years later if he'd started [TS]

01:07:38   let's just say in 2007 and wrote [TS]

01:07:43   essentially everything that he wrote [TS]

01:07:44   starting with 2007 on it would be much [TS]

01:07:48   tougher I think to go back and and say [TS]

01:07:51   well he's always said this because [TS]

01:07:53   always wouldn't have been a long amount [TS]

01:07:55   of time and Apple would have been more [TS]

01:07:58   successful um you know for whatever [TS]

01:08:02   reason Apple is one of those companies [TS]

01:08:05   where liking them there's always been [TS]

01:08:08   something associated with a person who [TS]

01:08:11   likes Apple or likes the stuff that [TS]

01:08:13   Apple does I mean you remember this [TS]

01:08:14   because you were using Mac's way way [TS]

01:08:17   back in the early days and it this was [TS]

01:08:20   back in the time and people may you know [TS]

01:08:22   I think a lot of our audience is long [TS]

01:08:24   you know it's made up of longtime Mac [TS]

01:08:26   users I think there's just as many [TS]

01:08:28   people who are relatively new new in the [TS]

01:08:30   sense of remember the first Mac came out [TS]

01:08:32   in 1984 so if you started using Mac's at [TS]

01:08:35   94 you still haven't been using Mac's as [TS]

01:08:39   long as they've been around you've been [TS]

01:08:41   using it not even half as long as [TS]

01:08:43   they've been around so if you started [TS]

01:08:45   yet let's say you started using Macs in [TS]

01:08:46   in the late 90s early 2000s you're a new [TS]

01:08:49   it from our standpoint you're new you're [TS]

01:08:51   still new if you've just got your first [TS]

01:08:53   Mac second [TS]

01:08:54   you're like brand-new to there you know [TS]

01:08:56   you're new here you just showed up so [TS]

01:08:59   from that standpoint if you look back [TS]

01:09:02   and you look back at people like you [TS]

01:09:04   probably you know the very very first [TS]

01:09:06   Mack was one of your very first machines [TS]

01:09:08   that you like to using and back then we [TS]

01:09:12   were as Mac users labeled as like [TS]

01:09:15   different but it wasn't a good kind of [TS]

01:09:17   different it wasn't the thing different [TS]

01:09:19   kind of different it was like oh Mack [TS]

01:09:22   yeah are you like do you do desktop [TS]

01:09:25   publishing because that's isn't that [TS]

01:09:27   just really reason for it and there was [TS]

01:09:31   this negative connotation usually except [TS]

01:09:34   among the people who used Mac's and then [TS]

01:09:35   it was a very very pot like you'd find [TS]

01:09:37   out somebody was a Mac user it would be [TS]

01:09:40   the equivalent of finding out that they [TS]

01:09:41   grew up like around the block and went [TS]

01:09:43   to the same grade school that you went [TS]

01:09:45   to or something I mean it was like [TS]

01:09:46   finding you know of a friendly face in [TS]

01:09:49   the crowd and it's certainly not that [TS]

01:09:52   way and now and I think I think we're [TS]

01:09:54   better for it in general but there was [TS]

01:09:58   there was that negative connotation and [TS]

01:10:00   I think that that negative feeling or [TS]

01:10:02   maybe maybe negative is too strong of a [TS]

01:10:04   word but whatever that sentiment was I [TS]

01:10:07   think it was still prevalent in [TS]

01:10:09   2001-2002 to some degree that writing [TS]

01:10:12   about the Mac saying look look what [TS]

01:10:15   Apple's doing they're doing some pretty [TS]

01:10:17   cool things that was not by any stretch [TS]

01:10:19   of the imagination that was not the [TS]

01:10:21   majority's opinion and there was [TS]

01:10:25   certainly not a lot of respect back then [TS]

01:10:27   around what Apple was doing that I think [TS]

01:10:29   it was changing I think it was changing [TS]

01:10:31   it's not and the analogy I frequently [TS]

01:10:34   think of is it's not like going and [TS]

01:10:35   saying wait which which football team [TS]

01:10:38   just won the Super Bowl okay that's my [TS]

01:10:41   team next year I'm gonna like them next [TS]

01:10:43   year it's that's not what I think John [TS]

01:10:46   Gruber was doing I think he he picked [TS]

01:10:49   the technology that he liked and that [TS]

01:10:50   was the most interesting and it happened [TS]

01:10:52   to be Apple and Apple happened to do [TS]

01:10:56   very well I think the only the only way [TS]

01:11:00   to test this is what how do you test [TS]

01:11:01   this job well so actually I get I want [TS]

01:11:05   to give the other side of it in support [TS]

01:11:07   of people saying he's a [TS]

01:11:08   because there is it there is an opposite [TS]

01:11:10   side to that I want to explain why you [TS]

01:11:12   would like to play do you agree with [TS]

01:11:14   which side you agree with um it's that [TS]

01:11:17   okay I don't it's t-mose [TS]

01:11:19   I mostly don't think he's a partisan but [TS]

01:11:21   let's do a little what let's get into [TS]

01:11:23   that no I wouldn't I want to say let's [TS]

01:11:24   let's hear that because I want to I [TS]

01:11:26   think people are now all of a sudden [TS]

01:11:28   very curious to know why but let's do [TS]

01:11:31   our second sponsor to MailChimp calm [TS]

01:11:33   easy email newsletters though I've [TS]

01:11:35   talked about these guys before [TS]

01:11:36   how much do you say about them you say [TS]

01:11:38   you want to send 12,000 emails a month [TS]

01:11:40   for free you can do that you want to [TS]

01:11:43   send 50 emails a month you can do that [TS]

01:11:44   too it's free and it stays for it's free [TS]

01:11:47   like that forever and they've come out [TS]

01:11:48   with a whole bunch of these new [TS]

01:11:50   resources they're free again and they [TS]

01:11:52   cover pretty much every topic that you [TS]

01:11:54   might want to use if you want to send an [TS]

01:11:56   email newsletter do you think it's a [TS]

01:11:58   simple thing to do maybe you're wrong [TS]

01:12:00   maybe you should go and find out and [TS]

01:12:01   they have a guide that explains some of [TS]

01:12:03   the pitfalls like how do you avoid spam [TS]

01:12:05   you send somebody newsletter even if [TS]

01:12:07   they subscribe to it they half the time [TS]

01:12:08   it shows up as spam you can avoid that [TS]

01:12:10   how do you make your email newsletter [TS]

01:12:13   look really good in mail app and also [TS]

01:12:15   while what's this one of these on the PC [TS]

01:12:16   outlook aren't they like it'll look good [TS]

01:12:20   in that to the email security I didn't [TS]

01:12:23   know there was such a thing there is [TS]

01:12:24   they have a guide about it [TS]

01:12:25   designing to look really good in mobile [TS]

01:12:28   on an iPhone on Android they have a [TS]

01:12:29   guide about that you go to MailChimp [TS]

01:12:31   calm it's right there thanks to those [TS]

01:12:34   guys for making a show possible again [TS]

01:12:36   love no all right so you you do not [TS]

01:12:40   think that he behaves like a partisan [TS]

01:12:43   well I want to talk about why people [TS]

01:12:44   think he is one looks like why is that [TS]

01:12:46   why is that sentiment so so prevalent [TS]

01:12:49   and is there is there are the things in [TS]

01:12:52   support of that and are there places [TS]

01:12:53   where he pretty straight is from things [TS]

01:12:55   so I think he's coming from a similar [TS]

01:12:58   place where I we getting back to like [TS]

01:13:01   you know back in before the Mac was [TS]

01:13:02   popular maybe even pre imac around the [TS]

01:13:04   time of the imac when it was still hard [TS]

01:13:05   sell to say that max were and and he was [TS]

01:13:07   a Mac user not as far back as I was but [TS]

01:13:09   from far enough back where he had the [TS]

01:13:11   same reaction as I did where you're [TS]

01:13:13   using these Mac's which are marginal [TS]

01:13:15   computers because like the real computer [TS]

01:13:19   users don't use them people make money [TS]

01:13:20   and stuff like that [TS]

01:13:21   but they have qualities that you decide [TS]

01:13:24   are so important and that max are so [TS]

01:13:28   much better in these aspects than any [TS]

01:13:30   other computer that it boggles your mind [TS]

01:13:32   that people don't see that they're [TS]

01:13:33   better all right this was definitely my [TS]

01:13:35   experience of using a Mac early on was [TS]

01:13:38   that there was das and then the [TS]

01:13:40   Macintosh came out right and people [TS]

01:13:42   would say no I like this and you would [TS]

01:13:45   say are you looking at the same two [TS]

01:13:46   things that I'm looking at right now [TS]

01:13:47   kale can you like that right because [TS]

01:13:49   it's not it's not close it's not like [TS]

01:13:51   all there's subtle differences in [TS]

01:13:53   elegance that like jaws and the Mac [TS]

01:13:56   because before Windows through colon [TS]

01:13:57   anything right it was just so stark and [TS]

01:14:00   you saw this thing and thought it was [TS]

01:14:01   awesome and just amazing and have these [TS]

01:14:03   qualities that just pushed all your [TS]

01:14:04   buttons but it didn't push other [TS]

01:14:06   people's buttons or didn't it didn't [TS]

01:14:07   push other people's buttons enough to [TS]

01:14:09   make up for all the other factors they [TS]

01:14:10   were much more important to them like [TS]

01:14:11   their priorities were different software [TS]

01:14:13   compatibility trust in IBM you know [TS]

01:14:16   price just the other factors that just [TS]

01:14:19   dominated these things that you [TS]

01:14:20   considered important and since your [TS]

01:14:22   value system the way you rank these [TS]

01:14:24   things was so different than them it was [TS]

01:14:26   difficult to understand why like it [TS]

01:14:30   wasn't much they didn't see what you saw [TS]

01:14:31   is they they valued it so little like [TS]

01:14:33   and because of that and because it [TS]

01:14:35   became like this war this Mac PC war [TS]

01:14:38   they would tell you that not only do I [TS]

01:14:41   value things in it do I prioritize [TS]

01:14:43   things differently than you do but in [TS]

01:14:45   fact considered in isolation the things [TS]

01:14:47   that you care about graphical excellence [TS]

01:14:50   and elegance and ease of use you're [TS]

01:14:51   actually even wrong on those because das [TS]

01:14:53   is actually exactly as easy to use as [TS]

01:14:54   the Mac or it's more easy to use in the [TS]

01:14:57   Mac and actually the isn't even in the [TS]

01:14:59   ones even if I was to stipulate that the [TS]

01:15:00   number one most important thing about a [TS]

01:15:02   computer was how elegant the interface [TS]

01:15:04   was or you know or how seamless it was [TS]

01:15:07   or how well maintained the illusion that [TS]

01:15:09   was being presented of the you know [TS]

01:15:12   what's inside the computer was even if I [TS]

01:15:14   was a Stickley that was the number one [TS]

01:15:15   concern I still think the PC is better [TS]

01:15:17   and that's just you know that was an [TS]

01:15:20   example of people going partisan were [TS]

01:15:21   like you know you are wrong in every [TS]

01:15:23   possible way that you could be wrong [TS]

01:15:24   rather than the more subtle argument [TS]

01:15:27   which is although the Mac is you know [TS]

01:15:29   friendlier and more and more elegant [TS]

01:15:31   those aren't the most important things [TS]

01:15:32   to me or to business or to the market [TS]

01:15:35   general and therefore the PC is going to [TS]

01:15:38   win or whatever they wouldn't you know [TS]

01:15:39   that's that's not a strong enough argue [TS]

01:15:41   the partisan partisan would say your [TS]

01:15:42   argument is weakened by that so you [TS]

01:15:44   should you should profess that you [TS]

01:15:46   really believe that the Mac isn't is not [TS]

01:15:48   any easier to use than das and you would [TS]

01:15:50   you would say why right so that kind of [TS]

01:15:53   environment especially to a river and I [TS]

01:15:57   were young at the time this was going on [TS]

01:15:58   a relatively young it bothered us that [TS]

01:16:03   this thing that we think is great the [TS]

01:16:04   people's priorities don't match ours and [TS]

01:16:06   they can't they don't seem to be [TS]

01:16:07   intellectually honest about the [TS]

01:16:11   advantages that our thing has they can't [TS]

01:16:12   even admit that we're better in this [TS]

01:16:13   area and just instead argue the more [TS]

01:16:15   subtle point that the priority should be [TS]

01:16:17   different right Oh some people argued [TS]

01:16:18   that as well now in in terms of all the [TS]

01:16:23   other side [TS]

01:16:24   I think Gruber still feels that Apple [TS]

01:16:26   devices and things are better in ways [TS]

01:16:29   that he thinks are of the most important [TS]

01:16:31   and great examples you know iOS is [TS]

01:16:32   responsiveness though he's harping on [TS]

01:16:34   the laggy scrolling the stuff in Android [TS]

01:16:35   and stuff like that um and or just the [TS]

01:16:40   seamlessness of the experience where [TS]

01:16:42   they've got the store they've got the [TS]

01:16:43   software that goes there's a full circle [TS]

01:16:44   type of experience no you know no third [TS]

01:16:48   parties coming mucking it up no carrier [TS]

01:16:50   software and they're getting in your way [TS]

01:16:51   it's just you know it's one holding that [TS]

01:16:54   those those things are very important to [TS]

01:16:58   Gruber and other iOS fans and people who [TS]

01:17:00   don't value them as much but Gruber's [TS]

01:17:03   position is like I'm not only going to [TS]

01:17:07   argue that this is better that the [TS]

01:17:10   Apple's products are better in these [TS]

01:17:12   areas that I consider important I'm also [TS]

01:17:14   going to try to convince you that they [TS]

01:17:18   actually are important right and one of [TS]

01:17:21   the things I'm going to use to try to [TS]

01:17:23   convince you that they actually are [TS]

01:17:24   important is in the case of Apple's new [TS]

01:17:26   things this is say look at how much [TS]

01:17:29   people want the iPhone look at how much [TS]

01:17:31   people want iPads you say that it [TS]

01:17:35   shouldn't matter and that Android is [TS]

01:17:38   selling more and it shows that the [TS]

01:17:39   things that you care about [TS]

01:17:41   Gruber are not actually that important [TS]

01:17:43   people don't really care [TS]

01:17:45   Android phones are better than all these [TS]

01:17:47   other ways that I can explain to you and [TS]

01:17:48   the fact that we don't [TS]

01:17:49   this thing this this you know it's not [TS]

01:17:50   an intangible but to them it's [TS]

01:17:52   intangible but the reason they don't [TS]

01:17:54   have this thing that you consider [TS]

01:17:55   important means that Apple stuff is [TS]

01:17:57   better what I see mostly in the fanboy [TS]

01:18:01   complaints and the partisan complaints [TS]

01:18:03   is this different choice of value system [TS]

01:18:07   between the two parties is not is not [TS]

01:18:10   reconciled and what that what they're [TS]

01:18:12   both using to try to reconcile this [TS]

01:18:13   difference in value system are facts [TS]

01:18:15   from the market and I think that's a I I [TS]

01:18:20   don't first of all I don't think that's [TS]

01:18:21   a strong argument to make but that's [TS]

01:18:23   what they've got the goin it's the facts [TS]

01:18:24   in the market right for the same reason [TS]

01:18:28   you know the anti side is that like well [TS]

01:18:31   that's that's what the PC people used [TS]

01:18:33   against us in the Mac PC Wars it's like [TS]

01:18:35   well if you if this was really that [TS]

01:18:36   important if people really cared about a [TS]

01:18:38   seamless GUI experience and elegance and [TS]

01:18:40   stuff like that wouldn't the Mac be [TS]

01:18:41   selling better right and what you can [TS]

01:18:46   use the flip side wanna now is like well [TS]

01:18:48   there's Hugh mungus lines for the new [TS]

01:18:50   iPhone people are super excited about [TS]

01:18:52   the iPhone in you know and engenders [TS]

01:18:54   this really fierce enthusiasm and people [TS]

01:18:57   love it people love their iPhones that [TS]

01:18:59   you just had one recently that people [TS]

01:19:01   were getting mugged and the people [TS]

01:19:02   didn't want the Android phones they just [TS]

01:19:03   wanted the iPhones right there's this [TS]

01:19:05   you know and this shows that this [TS]

01:19:07   quality that you didn't think was [TS]

01:19:09   important actually is really important [TS]

01:19:10   and people go nuts for it and where are [TS]

01:19:12   the lines for the Android phone that [TS]

01:19:16   pulls both sides into the realm of I [TS]

01:19:19   mean I mean how are you supposed to [TS]

01:19:21   decide whose value system is correct [TS]

01:19:22   they're using the facts the reality as [TS]

01:19:25   they're like as their tie breakers as [TS]

01:19:27   their as their referee to say you know [TS]

01:19:30   who's right about these values um but if [TS]

01:19:33   but if you're just not convinced about [TS]

01:19:34   if you just think that value system is [TS]

01:19:36   not the right one it's gonna look like [TS]

01:19:38   this guys constantly harping on this [TS]

01:19:39   this thing that's not true and all he's [TS]

01:19:42   doing is gathering up all possible [TS]

01:19:44   evidence you know facts from the Ark of [TS]

01:19:45   people opinions or ever showing that [TS]

01:19:47   he's trying to tell you that his value [TS]

01:19:49   system is correcting you're just never [TS]

01:19:50   going to be convinced that his value [TS]

01:19:51   system is correct like because there's [TS]

01:19:53   two aspects that one is my value system [TS]

01:19:57   is correct therefore and most people [TS]

01:20:01   agree with me therefore because this [TS]

01:20:02   phone [TS]

01:20:03   is better in these in these aspects it [TS]

01:20:04   will be the most successful and the [TS]

01:20:05   other one is regardless of whether this [TS]

01:20:07   phone is successful this is the best [TS]

01:20:09   phone period and even if no one in the [TS]

01:20:11   entire world thinks so except for me I'm [TS]

01:20:12   going to attempt to convince you that [TS]

01:20:14   you are all wrong and I'm right about [TS]

01:20:15   this being the best phone and those two [TS]

01:20:17   get all muddled up too so there's it I [TS]

01:20:21   like most debates online it's not even [TS]

01:20:25   clear what people people aren't all [TS]

01:20:26   clear what what it is they're debating [TS]

01:20:28   about and the final part that really [TS]

01:20:30   really muddles us up is part of a Gruber [TS]

01:20:34   does on his blog and part of what any [TS]

01:20:36   good blog does is entertain this is an [TS]

01:20:39   same thing with Rush Limbaugh and all [TS]

01:20:41   those other things like entertainment is [TS]

01:20:42   part of of you know good writing you [TS]

01:20:48   know anything and people want to be [TS]

01:20:50   entertained and entertainment is good [TS]

01:20:52   and a lot of people dismiss Rush [TS]

01:20:55   Limbaugh stuff Assange always just an [TS]

01:20:57   entertainer if a Gruber is an [TS]

01:20:58   entertainer as well and so he will do [TS]

01:21:01   things that if you were to use your [TS]

01:21:04   favorite stuff if he was a Vulcan he [TS]

01:21:06   would not do these things he would not [TS]

01:21:07   take the snarky jabs and stuff right he [TS]

01:21:10   wouldn't cherry-pick the one line about [TS]

01:21:13   about Android being slow from the giant [TS]

01:21:16   review that was mostly favorable to [TS]

01:21:17   Android right I think it because that's [TS]

01:21:21   like that's not that's gets into the [TS]

01:21:23   fairness that's because that's that's [TS]

01:21:24   not fair that's taking a cheap shot or [TS]

01:21:26   something so you're saying this is just [TS]

01:21:31   not fair it's not a fair situation well [TS]

01:21:34   I'm saying that entertainment has value [TS]

01:21:38   and you can't dismiss it like it you [TS]

01:21:41   can't say oh you can you can never make [TS]

01:21:43   cheap shots like that it's you should [TS]

01:21:45   never do that because that's a boring [TS]

01:21:46   blog that nobody wants to read you know [TS]

01:21:49   and that's that's a standard to which [TS]

01:21:51   you can't hold anybody that they can't [TS]

01:21:54   ever do something just because it's fun [TS]

01:21:57   and I you were asking before whether I [TS]

01:22:00   thought it a grouper was a partisan or [TS]

01:22:02   not I think he's he's trying very hard [TS]

01:22:07   to be intellectually honest about what [TS]

01:22:09   he does but he has to balance that with [TS]

01:22:12   his desire to be entertaining I think [TS]

01:22:15   it's also his knee [TS]

01:22:16   to be entertaining because again if [TS]

01:22:17   you're not if you want to be successful [TS]

01:22:19   there has to be some sort of [TS]

01:22:20   entertainment value if it's just a [TS]

01:22:22   simple dry analysis that has a much [TS]

01:22:25   smaller audience mm-hmm and but but not [TS]

01:22:27   just in sort of a mercenary way of I [TS]

01:22:29   want people to read it but because you [TS]

01:22:31   know that's that's his nature that's [TS]

01:22:32   most oranges we like entertaining things [TS]

01:22:34   and we want to be entertaining ourselves [TS]

01:22:36   so he has to balance that with with the [TS]

01:22:38   desire to do that and I think the [TS]

01:22:43   essential struggle that I see in his [TS]

01:22:45   work is that he he wants to strike the [TS]

01:22:48   right balance there but it is it's in [TS]

01:22:51   his nature to enjoy being snarky to [TS]

01:22:55   enjoy taking the cheap shots uh but he's [TS]

01:22:58   always conscious of well geez I don't [TS]

01:23:00   want to overdo this like am I am I going [TS]

01:23:03   too far am I not am I too busy looking [TS]

01:23:07   for the little snarky thing then I am [TS]

01:23:09   too [TS]

01:23:11   to realize there the facts are changing [TS]

01:23:12   and I need to reevaluate in my opinion I [TS]

01:23:14   think he's constantly re-evaluating that [TS]

01:23:16   and it's very conscious of them that's [TS]

01:23:18   why I think he's not a partisan because [TS]

01:23:20   a partisan is not fretting over whether [TS]

01:23:22   whether what they're doing is [TS]

01:23:24   intellectually honest what all partisans [TS]

01:23:26   worrying about is how can I make sure [TS]

01:23:28   that no matter what anyone says I [TS]

01:23:30   continue to me to try to convincingly [TS]

01:23:32   say that my position is correct but the [TS]

01:23:35   thing that I decided you know 20 years [TS]

01:23:36   ago [TS]

01:23:37   that's all partisans worried about [TS]

01:23:38   they're worried about defending their [TS]

01:23:40   reputation and never looking like [TS]

01:23:42   they're wrong and that's not what Gruber [TS]

01:23:44   is worried about if my perspective but I [TS]

01:23:46   think he does struggle with that balance [TS]

01:23:47   like for example the claim chowder thing [TS]

01:23:50   where he notes people making bold [TS]

01:23:53   predictions that he thinks are going to [TS]

01:23:55   be very wrong catalogues them and later [TS]

01:23:57   when it turns out that they are very [TS]

01:23:58   wrong he comes back and and because it's [TS]

01:24:01   entertaining it's interesting he enjoys [TS]

01:24:02   doing it a lot of people enjoy reading [TS]

01:24:04   it right and and you can't say you know [TS]

01:24:06   it what does he what role is he doing [TS]

01:24:09   they're all he's basically doing is [TS]

01:24:10   saying here's what somebody says I'll [TS]

01:24:11   follow that away for claim shouter which [TS]

01:24:13   is what he's saying is I think this [TS]

01:24:14   person is wrong about this but I'll just [TS]

01:24:16   keep it here and we'll see who is right [TS]

01:24:18   in time you know and then when when the [TS]

01:24:20   facts later on when it either comes to [TS]

01:24:22   pass or doesn't he puts it up now it's [TS]

01:24:24   much more entertaining when it doesn't [TS]

01:24:26   come to pass but I think if he filed [TS]

01:24:28   something away for claim Schauder and [TS]

01:24:29   the person turned out to be a hundred [TS]

01:24:31   percent right I think he would post that [TS]

01:24:33   and say I put this up filed this way for [TS]

01:24:35   clam chowder and it turned out this guy [TS]

01:24:37   was exactly right and I think he would [TS]

01:24:38   also in that post talk about what it is [TS]

01:24:41   they made him think that the person [TS]

01:24:42   wasn't right and what and what changed [TS]

01:24:45   why was I wrong about this I think he [TS]

01:24:46   would what he would want to examine that [TS]

01:24:47   and he would write something about [TS]

01:24:49   here's why I was wrong [TS]

01:24:51   I thought X Y & Z but it turned out you [TS]

01:24:53   know the fact that happens rarely again [TS]

01:24:57   is sort of the curse of being someone [TS]

01:25:00   who likes apples products and thinks [TS]

01:25:01   they're going to be successful during a [TS]

01:25:03   10 year span when Apple was very [TS]

01:25:05   successful lots of people bought its [TS]

01:25:06   products ah so I think the seed of this [TS]

01:25:10   whole fanboy thing into policies thing [TS]

01:25:13   there there's a reason for that feeling [TS]

01:25:15   because I believe he really does [TS]

01:25:16   struggle with balancing the [TS]

01:25:18   entertainment value and his own personal [TS]

01:25:20   inclination to be snarky against his [TS]

01:25:24   strong desire not to be a partisan [TS]

01:25:27   because I think he doesn't like those [TS]

01:25:29   kind of people and doesn't want to be [TS]

01:25:30   one of those people and I don't think he [TS]

01:25:32   is but he is a human being and that that [TS]

01:25:36   is that is something that he struggles [TS]

01:25:39   with striking that balance and and like [TS]

01:25:41   I said it's not like your arm struggling [TS]

01:25:42   against this this uh this evil nature I [TS]

01:25:45   have I have to have this bad thing that [TS]

01:25:47   I want to do and I have to fight against [TS]

01:25:48   it and it's like the perfect solution [TS]

01:25:50   would be well completely flat you know [TS]

01:25:51   dominate it and never I'll never give in [TS]

01:25:54   to that urge that's not that's not the [TS]

01:25:56   right balance the right balance is not [TS]

01:25:58   none of that because that's not [TS]

01:26:00   interesting that's not entertaining so [TS]

01:26:01   that's that's the real tricky part here [TS]

01:26:03   it's not as if you can you know go for [TS]

01:26:05   abstinence and say I will never make a [TS]

01:26:07   snarky comment I will never make a joke [TS]

01:26:08   I will never cherry-pick some piece of [TS]

01:26:10   information that have a larger article [TS]

01:26:12   just so I can make us not comment about [TS]

01:26:14   it because that's that's the lowering [TS]

01:26:18   the value of your blog it's not just [TS]

01:26:20   supposed to be about some you know dry [TS]

01:26:23   factual accounting and analysis of [TS]

01:26:25   factors and speaking of dry factual [TS]

01:26:27   accounting and analysis sorry for this [TS]

01:26:29   intro but Morris they do of a tsimko you [TS]

01:26:32   know I was talking about I you were that [TS]

01:26:33   knew right away you are complicit in [TS]

01:26:35   that yeah [TS]

01:26:37   a tsimko whose site I love I think that [TS]

01:26:40   he also struggles with the same thing [TS]

01:26:42   and perhaps less successfully I don't [TS]

01:26:44   know I haven't read him enough I've been [TS]

01:26:46   at ten years reading a Gruber I think or [TS]

01:26:48   more than that how long has it been a [TS]

01:26:49   long time long time uh I think I have a [TS]

01:26:52   better handle on his personality than I [TS]

01:26:53   do horses I've just started listening to [TS]

01:26:54   his podcast and his blog is relatively [TS]

01:26:56   new his his premise always seems to be [TS]

01:27:01   Apple as the company's undervalued by [TS]

01:27:03   the stock market and Apple is a [TS]

01:27:05   disruptive force and the incumbents in [TS]

01:27:07   the mobile industry are here's why the [TS]

01:27:09   incomes the mobile industry are being [TS]

01:27:10   disrupted and he definitely [TS]

01:27:12   gathers evidence and facts to support [TS]

01:27:14   his his premise uh I think he has to [TS]

01:27:19   look out for the same type of thing you [TS]

01:27:22   know don't get too married to to the [TS]

01:27:24   premise that the incumbents are you know [TS]

01:27:27   are being disrupted by Apple and that [TS]

01:27:30   Apple is undervalued I think the closest [TS]

01:27:32   he came to working this was a post he [TS]

01:27:33   had where he was trying to think about [TS]

01:27:35   why why is that blunder valued what is [TS]

01:27:38   it about Apple that makes people despite [TS]

01:27:41   their tremendous success and they [TS]

01:27:43   constantly have huge profits why is [TS]

01:27:45   their p/e ratio so low and what he came [TS]

01:27:48   through in this post was that the market [TS]

01:27:50   doesn't value doesn't think that the [TS]

01:27:53   ability to make hit products is is a [TS]

01:27:56   quality that a company can have they [TS]

01:27:57   just think it's fluke so despite the [TS]

01:27:59   fact that Apple keeps you know [TS]

01:28:01   disrupting new businesses and making hit [TS]

01:28:03   product after hit product they think [TS]

01:28:06   that's not repeatable that's not [TS]

01:28:07   actually a strategic advantage of the [TS]

01:28:09   company you know it's it's - it's it's [TS]

01:28:13   like it's like gambling it's like well [TS]

01:28:15   you know well so well but you can't [TS]

01:28:16   count on them being will do that versus [TS]

01:28:18   other things like oh they're very good [TS]

01:28:19   at you know manufacturing or they have [TS]

01:28:21   lots of they have a powerful [TS]

01:28:23   distribution chain or some other asset [TS]

01:28:25   of a company that Wall Street feels like [TS]

01:28:27   they can bank on it's like all they've [TS]

01:28:28   you know they own all this copper right [TS]

01:28:30   I was going back to the phone comes they [TS]

01:28:31   own all this copper and have this great [TS]

01:28:32   infrastructure and that's a competitive [TS]

01:28:34   advantage and we believe in that but [TS]

01:28:37   they just simply don't believe that [TS]

01:28:38   innovation and making great products in [TS]

01:28:40   design is is repeatable every time it [TS]

01:28:43   happens it like well they just got lucky [TS]

01:28:44   with the iPad thing well that iPhone [TS]

01:28:46   thing they just got lucky people happen [TS]

01:28:47   to like their phone and it [TS]

01:28:48   just just cannot convince themselves [TS]

01:28:49   that it's a it's something that's worth [TS]

01:28:53   rewarding with we believe that in the [TS]

01:28:55   future they will continue to do this and [TS]

01:28:58   so that I thought was a great analysis [TS]

01:29:00   of why it's undervalued but when I read [TS]

01:29:01   that article I thought yeah but Horace [TS]

01:29:03   doesn't believe that that kind of the [TS]

01:29:05   subtext of the article was that this [TS]

01:29:07   stuff the stock market is wrong and [TS]

01:29:09   actually this is a repeatable quality is [TS]

01:29:14   this this will lead to future successes [TS]

01:29:16   is an indicator of future success just [TS]

01:29:19   as much as a lot of things and I'm not [TS]

01:29:21   sure he completely made that case uh and [TS]

01:29:24   he did you know it like when I read that [TS]

01:29:28   article I came away with the opposite [TS]

01:29:29   impression like I thought it was a great [TS]

01:29:31   explanation of why they're undervalued [TS]

01:29:32   and I thought you know what that kind of [TS]

01:29:33   makes sense and I might also undervalue [TS]

01:29:37   Apple because I also believe that it not [TS]

01:29:40   that it's not repeatable but that it is [TS]

01:29:42   a riskier thing to depend on than other [TS]

01:29:46   factors that are you know less tied to [TS]

01:29:49   human nature and stuff it's for example [TS]

01:29:50   you know it's because the stock market [TS]

01:29:52   doesn't understand what is it that makes [TS]

01:29:54   this a good design you know they [TS]

01:29:56   couldn't have done it themselves and [TS]

01:29:57   they don't it's like art it's like art [TS]

01:29:58   we don't understand why this is great [TS]

01:30:00   and so we don't feel comfortable betting [TS]

01:30:03   on the fact that they'll do it again [TS]

01:30:04   because we don't even know how they did [TS]

01:30:05   this time I think there's something to [TS]

01:30:08   that and I actually it that article made [TS]

01:30:10   me think that the markets evaluation of [TS]

01:30:12   Apple is actually more rational than I [TS]

01:30:13   had previously thought worse I think he [TS]

01:30:15   where he was coming from was that this [TS]

01:30:19   shows why the market doesn't get Apple [TS]

01:30:21   and they it's their lack of [TS]

01:30:23   understanding that's making this [TS]

01:30:24   undervalued and I think it should be [TS]

01:30:26   overvalued so we'll see if Apple takes a [TS]

01:30:29   turn or whatever we'll see if I continue [TS]

01:30:32   me to read a horse's stuff if his if I [TS]

01:30:35   believe his premise is changing you know [TS]

01:30:36   I don't know if you get that same [TS]

01:30:37   feeling when reading a stuff it's I [TS]

01:30:39   think it's unfair to give an analysis [TS]

01:30:40   that because the body of work he has is [TS]

01:30:42   just so much smaller than Gruber's body [TS]

01:30:43   of work so really that the graph isn't [TS]

01:30:46   long enough for me to to make any [TS]

01:30:49   statements on the picture but I think [TS]

01:30:51   but it's but it's obvious that he's [TS]

01:30:52   super smart and obviously thinks a lot [TS]

01:30:53   about this and he presents facts and [TS]

01:30:56   graphs and figures and if he's wrong on [TS]

01:30:58   them when he has been and got something [TS]

01:30:59   wrong he's updated it and you know [TS]

01:31:01   he's definitely trying to be [TS]

01:31:02   intellectually honest as well it's a [TS]

01:31:05   struggle that we all have now I did the [TS]

01:31:08   final thing here if I wrap up I'll throw [TS]

01:31:09   myself into this thing that was so where [TS]

01:31:12   do I fall in this continuum I kind of I [TS]

01:31:18   kind of take the easy way out because [TS]

01:31:21   it's a lot easier to tell to say what's [TS]

01:31:24   wrong with something than it is to stake [TS]

01:31:27   out a position where you try to say [TS]

01:31:30   what's right about something like I you [TS]

01:31:31   know to say that it Apple does these [TS]

01:31:34   things very well I think these things [TS]

01:31:36   are very valuable I think you know I'm [TS]

01:31:38   not that type of thing has never been in [TS]

01:31:41   my nature and it is my nature to just [TS]

01:31:43   say here's what Apple is doing wrong and [TS]

01:31:44   here's what their message opening is [TS]

01:31:45   what's wrong with this product and to a [TS]

01:31:48   great extent is a lot easier to do that [TS]

01:31:50   you open yourself up to less of the [TS]

01:31:53   criticism of being a fanboy you still [TS]

01:31:56   get it you can't escape it on the web [TS]

01:31:58   but what I would tend to get was [TS]

01:32:01   whatever thing I'm complaining about the [TS]

01:32:04   other side especially when I was unknown [TS]

01:32:05   I'd write a big thing complaining about [TS]

01:32:07   all the stuff that's wrong with early [TS]

01:32:08   versions of Mac OS 10 and people would [TS]

01:32:10   say you're just a stupid PC user if you [TS]

01:32:12   would ever use the Mac maybe you would [TS]

01:32:13   know what's good about you know that [TS]

01:32:16   type of things they had no idea who I [TS]

01:32:17   was so with no foreknowledge they [TS]

01:32:20   assumed I was a PC user and this is the [TS]

01:32:21   first time that ever looked at Apple [TS]

01:32:23   product why do they assume that because [TS]

01:32:24   it said bad things about and the only [TS]

01:32:25   people say bad things about Apple [TS]

01:32:28   products are people who have never used [TS]

01:32:29   them right and as people come to know me [TS]

01:32:31   that's balance out a little bit people [TS]

01:32:33   but people will read the stuff I write [TS]

01:32:34   and say I love these articles are very [TS]

01:32:37   objective they're you know it's the only [TS]

01:32:39   objective analysis of this type of thing [TS]

01:32:40   and my articles are the farthest thing [TS]

01:32:42   from objective they say objective [TS]

01:32:43   because I say bad things about something [TS]

01:32:45   that I obviously like I obviously am [TS]

01:32:47   people now know I'm a Mac user I'm an [TS]

01:32:49   apple guy or whatever and then I say all [TS]

01:32:51   sorts of bad things about Apple stuff [TS]

01:32:52   that's objective because I'm saying bad [TS]

01:32:54   things about like my thing about my team [TS]

01:32:57   that's not being objective I'm my [TS]

01:32:59   articles are almost entirely opinion [TS]

01:33:02   based I try to support my opinions and [TS]

01:33:04   argue for them and most of the opinions [TS]

01:33:06   are about what's wrong because that's [TS]

01:33:07   just in my nature to that type of thing [TS]

01:33:09   but it's in it doesn't make it more [TS]

01:33:11   objective it makes people feel more [TS]

01:33:12   comfortable that I'm not a partisan when [TS]

01:33:15   they see me dumping on the stuff that I [TS]

01:33:16   obviously love and it's one of the [TS]

01:33:18   reasons I have never written about [TS]

01:33:19   Windows or some other product that I'm [TS]

01:33:21   not interested in and don't have [TS]

01:33:23   experience with one is you know you [TS]

01:33:25   don't have experience with that I [TS]

01:33:26   wouldn't really know what I was talking [TS]

01:33:26   about the other one is like if I was [TS]

01:33:29   honest about what I thought about [TS]

01:33:30   Windows I would just savage it and [TS]

01:33:32   that's a less interesting article to [TS]

01:33:34   read because people would be like well [TS]

01:33:35   big surprise the Apple guy hates Windows [TS]

01:33:37   right and and I'm just not I'm not even [TS]

01:33:42   interested enough minute to criticize it [TS]

01:33:44   right but but I'm very interested in [TS]

01:33:46   Apple stuff and and you know the like [TS]

01:33:48   tebow I'm constantly complaining about [TS]

01:33:49   TiVo people assume I hate TiVo I try to [TS]

01:33:51   reiterate this every time it's still [TS]

01:33:53   it's still the best thing out there [TS]

01:33:54   there was something better than TiVo I [TS]

01:33:55   would buy it people are more willing to [TS]

01:33:58   believe I think that I have no loyalty [TS]

01:33:59   to TiVo that I would switch in a second [TS]

01:34:01   there's something better which is 100% [TS]

01:34:02   true but all of us Big Apple nerds all [TS]

01:34:05   say the same thing like well if there's [TS]

01:34:08   a phone that's like 10 times better than [TS]

01:34:10   iPhone wall switch to it because our [TS]

01:34:11   loyalty is this is the thing that's [TS]

01:34:13   awesome Apple is a much longer term [TS]

01:34:16   relationship than it is with TiVo or [TS]

01:34:18   some other things so I think all of us [TS]

01:34:19   are constantly worried like with that [TS]

01:34:22   happen would I take too long to notice [TS]

01:34:24   that the iOS has gotten crappy and [TS]

01:34:27   there's actually a better platform you [TS]

01:34:28   know I think that's why all of us were [TS]

01:34:30   like let's check out webOS let's make [TS]

01:34:33   sure that what we say to each other into [TS]

01:34:35   ourselves is really true that if [TS]

01:34:36   something was better than iPhone we [TS]

01:34:37   would use it well then we owe it to [TS]

01:34:39   ourselves to make sure we check out iOS [TS]

01:34:40   and make sure we're not the those of us [TS]

01:34:42   who are interesting and being [TS]

01:34:42   intellectually honest let's check it out [TS]

01:34:44   because we don't want to we don't want [TS]

01:34:48   to dismiss it off end and it does have [TS]

01:34:50   some things that appeal to us so you [TS]

01:34:51   know Windows Phone 7 [TS]

01:34:52   I know Gruber is very interested in [TS]

01:34:54   taking a look at that I think he's got [TS]

01:34:55   one of those phones right now so am I [TS]

01:34:56   like we want to make sure we want to [TS]

01:34:58   test ourselves okay so you say you're [TS]

01:35:00   going to you'll like whatever the best [TS]

01:35:02   thing is well you know you better make [TS]

01:35:04   sure you look at everything so that what [TS]

01:35:07   the second thing that's better than the [TS]

01:35:08   iPhone comes out you're on it because if [TS]

01:35:10   you're late to it people can say see you [TS]

01:35:12   resisted for three months or whatever [TS]

01:35:13   you didn't recognize that Windows Phone [TS]

01:35:15   7 was better than iOS and you know I'm [TS]

01:35:18   those of us who are interested in who [TS]

01:35:20   don't want to be partisans want to make [TS]

01:35:23   sure that we're on the better thing in a [TS]

01:35:25   second like the standard is higher [TS]

01:35:27   for us because we are such fans of one [TS]

01:35:29   particular thing for a long time so for [TS]

01:35:34   me I don't come in for a lot of the span [TS]

01:35:36   boy stuff occasionally I do but you know [TS]

01:35:38   that's unlike a single article basis so [TS]

01:35:40   I write some article about why [TS]

01:35:42   something's good and something's bad the [TS]

01:35:43   fanboys come on either side of it but [TS]

01:35:44   the body of my work when I think back at [TS]

01:35:47   my work what did I become known for I [TS]

01:35:49   became known for in the writing of guys [TS]

01:35:51   writing articles that explain what's [TS]

01:35:53   wrong with Michael Westen [TS]

01:35:54   right like that that in my head that's [TS]

01:35:56   how I see it maybe other people see it [TS]

01:35:58   as like writing articles that glorify [TS]

01:36:00   Mac os10 or being a Mac fanboy but but I [TS]

01:36:02   really really I see it just like I'm the [TS]

01:36:05   guy who complains about Apple stuff and [TS]

01:36:06   this usually equal or sometimes even [TS]

01:36:09   greater amount of saying oh here's the [TS]

01:36:11   thing that I really love and I think [TS]

01:36:12   that stands out because I spent the rest [TS]

01:36:13   of the thing complaining about what was [TS]

01:36:15   wrong but maybe it's become more [TS]

01:36:17   balanced like the early Mac Ghost [TS]

01:36:19   interviews I was just dumping all over [TS]

01:36:20   it because I was an angry classic Mac OS [TS]

01:36:21   user and all those other things versus [TS]

01:36:23   the lion review where I think I may have [TS]

01:36:25   crossed over now because lots of people [TS]

01:36:27   are pissed off about lion for various [TS]

01:36:29   reasons and they'll read my lion review [TS]

01:36:32   and say you weren't hard enough on it [TS]

01:36:34   like you dumped on the calendar but you [TS]

01:36:36   were you know I like my opinion of Mac [TS]

01:36:40   os10 is starting to become less severe [TS]

01:36:43   than the the most severe critics whereas [TS]

01:36:47   in the beginning my opinion of Mac os10 [TS]

01:36:48   was probably the most severe of anybody [TS]

01:36:50   that because they had never seen it and [TS]

01:36:51   assumed it was just fine I'm telling [TS]

01:36:52   them no it's awful or because they you [TS]

01:36:55   know R Apple fanboys real Apple fanboys [TS]

01:36:57   and like like everything that Apple does [TS]

01:37:00   and I know I just complained about [TS]

01:37:03   calling someone a fanboy and dismissing [TS]

01:37:05   everything had to say but in this [TS]

01:37:06   context I'm using the aggregate not an [TS]

01:37:08   individual person or whatever but there [TS]

01:37:09   are people who or again I'll get back to [TS]

01:37:13   Parsons there there are partisans who [TS]

01:37:14   instinctively will like everything Apple [TS]

01:37:16   does and they're trying to try to [TS]

01:37:17   support that premise and they definitely [TS]

01:37:19   did that with Mac os10 they would say [TS]

01:37:20   it's not too slow it's fine maca was [TS]

01:37:22   10.0 it was too slow you know but they [TS]

01:37:26   will you know swear up and down that it [TS]

01:37:27   wasn't so I don't know I probably do a [TS]

01:37:30   very bad job of it [TS]

01:37:34   correctly seeing where I stand in this [TS]

01:37:37   continuum maybe I do a better job of [TS]

01:37:39   looking other people so I'll leave it to [TS]

01:37:41   if Gruber or Horace ever want to talk [TS]

01:37:43   about the stop again which I doubt they [TS]

01:37:45   will they can feel free to tell me how [TS]

01:37:48   well I've struggled against being a [TS]

01:37:49   partisan in my uh on and off again [TS]

01:37:53   writing career of much lower volume than [TS]

01:37:56   a Gruber definitely the only other thing [TS]

01:38:00   I hadn't hear was that uh that horse [TS]

01:38:03   word that I can't say on this podcast [TS]

01:38:05   thing by Topolsky did you see that oh [TS]

01:38:08   yeah yeah horse horse crap there you go [TS]

01:38:12   is the euphemism for the actual title [TS]

01:38:14   then yeah I think I covered most of the [TS]

01:38:18   same basis I might go into the specifics [TS]

01:38:19   on that thing but that pulls in mg [TS]

01:38:21   Siegler and this whole other thing that [TS]

01:38:23   I don't want to get into this moment [TS]

01:38:24   yeah and so we still didn't get to the [TS]

01:38:26   thing I left that off of my last [TS]

01:38:28   follow-up show so I will continue to [TS]

01:38:30   leave it off what do we add for total [TS]

01:38:33   now timewise timewise whatever it was [TS]

01:38:38   before plus oh so the people who were [TS]

01:38:40   listening to this the usual way which [TS]

01:38:42   means a podcast they have downloaded it [TS]

01:38:44   to their favorite device or they're [TS]

01:38:45   playing it over their favorite device [TS]

01:38:47   and they're enjoying this what you don't [TS]

01:38:49   know is that there was this whole middle [TS]

01:38:52   segment where John Syracuse's and House [TS]

01:38:54   shut down the whole house shut down and [TS]

01:38:56   it turns out he was without power and we [TS]

01:39:01   had to stop the show and we picked it [TS]

01:39:02   back up and for those of you who were [TS]

01:39:05   not listening live the real test will be [TS]

01:39:08   to see if you can figure out at what [TS]

01:39:09   point we actually lost and then resumed [TS]

01:39:14   because there was like an hour so of [TS]

01:39:16   time where you were just running around [TS]

01:39:18   your house like a chicken with its head [TS]

01:39:20   cut off so when you when John asked how [TS]

01:39:22   what's a total time I actually don't [TS]

01:39:24   know I I'm assuming we're over an hour [TS]

01:39:27   but I only know right now how much time [TS]

01:39:29   we've been recording since we restarted [TS]

01:39:31   which is 18 minutes so it's been it's [TS]

01:39:35   been at least a good I would guess 7080 [TS]

01:39:38   minutes it's a good show I want to throw [TS]

01:39:40   one more little thing in yeah throw it [TS]

01:39:41   in time for do it is also from the talk [TS]

01:39:44   show do it uh are you agree we're [TS]

01:39:46   talking about Twitter and [TS]

01:39:48   what Gruber said was we're talking about [TS]

01:39:50   the changes in Twitter and how the [TS]

01:39:52   Twitter that that seems to be promoted [TS]

01:39:54   by the latest version of the Twitter Qui [TS]

01:39:56   Nhon website is not the Twitter that the [TS]

01:39:58   people who joined in 2006 correct came [TS]

01:40:01   to know and love right yep [TS]

01:40:02   like that was about finding a little [TS]

01:40:06   place like a water cooler recess where [TS]

01:40:07   you you you're talking to your friends [TS]

01:40:08   because you just follow your friends [TS]

01:40:09   they follow you and they're overlapping [TS]

01:40:12   sets and there are fringes doesn't mean [TS]

01:40:14   that you follow every single person that [TS]

01:40:15   your friend Falls but you know that's a [TS]

01:40:16   big big overlap in your little circle [TS]

01:40:18   and it's just a place for you to chat [TS]

01:40:20   with people in your circle like an IRC [TS]

01:40:22   channel that's you know that you don't [TS]

01:40:24   have to be in all the time or like I am [TS]

01:40:26   but but with smaller chunks of messages [TS]

01:40:28   we a place to chat during the day that's [TS]

01:40:30   the thing that those of us who joined [TS]

01:40:32   way back when I think I joined in [TS]

01:40:33   January 2007 but a lot of people join [TS]

01:40:35   2006 and a tiny brief history and this I [TS]

01:40:39   remember when Gruber joined Twitter I [TS]

01:40:41   think it was at South by Southwest or [TS]

01:40:43   some other conference or whatever and he [TS]

01:40:45   was like hey check this out it's like it [TS]

01:40:48   was basically the Twitter page showing [TS]

01:40:51   people it was the Twitter homepage like [TS]

01:40:52   the public timeline but it was you know [TS]

01:40:54   here's what people are saying it South [TS]

01:40:56   by Southwest or whatever the thing was [TS]

01:40:57   so this is a time when you could go to [TS]

01:40:59   the Twitter homepage it see the public [TS]

01:41:01   timeline and read it because it was it [TS]

01:41:03   was just a bunch of nerds that you knew [TS]

01:41:05   talking about something that you were [TS]

01:41:07   interested about every everybody that [TS]

01:41:08   was there you knew you knew them or you [TS]

01:41:11   knew of them at least and that's all [TS]

01:41:13   who's on Twitter like so you literally [TS]

01:41:15   read every tweet in the front page and [TS]

01:41:17   it was and it was relevant to you which [TS]

01:41:19   is yeah so but that and then I and it [TS]

01:41:21   was a web page and you know twitter.com [TS]

01:41:23   slash you know just this brute web page [TS]

01:41:25   and showed a bunch of people talking and [TS]

01:41:27   each thing was like you know 140 [TS]

01:41:28   characters whatever I'm like what the [TS]

01:41:30   hell is this people type stuff and it [TS]

01:41:33   goes on a web page and then people look [TS]

01:41:35   at the web page with the stuff that you [TS]

01:41:37   said it's like I thought was a stupidest [TS]

01:41:39   thing I've ever seen I mean it's like [TS]

01:41:41   it's like take IRC or I am and make it [TS]

01:41:44   way way worse put it on a web page I [TS]

01:41:46   don't go to a stupid web page and see a [TS]

01:41:48   bunch of things that people said so I [TS]

01:41:49   didn't sign up in 2006 the last time [TS]

01:41:52   2007 rolled around I caves I think it [TS]

01:41:56   was when I started hearing about the [TS]

01:41:58   Twitter clients because like all right [TS]

01:41:59   so now this now it's different I'm not [TS]

01:42:01   looking at this stupid web page [TS]

01:42:02   a little client app I don't remember in [TS]

01:42:04   the first version of Twitter if it came [TS]

01:42:05   out maybe that was maybe that was around [TS]

01:42:08   that time but something got me over the [TS]

01:42:10   edge and what I quickly came to realize [TS]

01:42:12   from actually using it once you join you [TS]

01:42:13   know I made some tweets is that it was a [TS]

01:42:15   replacement for something that I've [TS]

01:42:16   always had in my computing life [TS]

01:42:19   it was IRC very early on was like a [TS]

01:42:22   channel with a bunch of the people but [TS]

01:42:23   for all four years that I was in college [TS]

01:42:25   93 to 97 they had it was kind of like a [TS]

01:42:29   mailing list you would send an email to [TS]

01:42:31   some address at your at university at [TS]

01:42:34   your university and someone made a [TS]

01:42:38   reader it was like the the bulletin [TS]

01:42:40   board thing are the messages thing and [TS]

01:42:42   someone made a reader application would [TS]

01:42:43   read the mail spool for that visit was [TS]

01:42:46   publicly readable mail spool would read [TS]

01:42:48   that mail spool and present the messages [TS]

01:42:50   in that mail spool in order and then you [TS]

01:42:51   had a little dot file in your home [TS]

01:42:52   directory that would tell you what the [TS]

01:42:56   last one you read was and they were [TS]

01:42:57   numbered all right so it was you know [TS]

01:42:59   post number one number two number three [TS]

01:43:00   and your little dot file would say [TS]

01:43:02   you're on number three so the next time [TS]

01:43:03   you read it would start with number four [TS]

01:43:04   number five so you'd be catching up on [TS]

01:43:06   this thing so those various names for [TS]

01:43:07   this system and I used to be you be be [TS]

01:43:12   you University bulletin board and then [TS]

01:43:15   later on the CSS another thing called [TS]

01:43:16   forum format CS same exact concept that [TS]

01:43:20   was basically Twitter I except the only [TS]

01:43:22   exception was you didn't choose who to [TS]

01:43:24   follow that the following was implicit [TS]

01:43:25   by well if you if you read up you BB if [TS]

01:43:28   you read up it was just you and the [TS]

01:43:30   other uppers and it was like 20 people [TS]

01:43:32   who did this in the entire university so [TS]

01:43:34   you were a self-selected group of [TS]

01:43:35   friends who all followed each other [TS]

01:43:36   although you could have skipped things [TS]

01:43:38   that lots of people I wrote as of course [TS]

01:43:41   I would [TS]

01:43:42   I wrote a a client application and Perl [TS]

01:43:44   that allowed you to have files that [TS]

01:43:45   filtered out certain people if you [TS]

01:43:46   didn't want to see posts from certain [TS]

01:43:48   people whatever but it was basically [TS]

01:43:49   Twitter no no no length limit but the [TS]

01:43:51   blinks the links were generally short [TS]

01:43:53   and you would just catch up and read the [TS]

01:43:54   same way you catch up on Twitter now uh [TS]

01:43:56   and I had that in my life you know [TS]

01:43:58   because ninety three was the first time [TS]

01:43:59   I really got online like on Ethernet on [TS]

01:44:01   you know the internet I had that in my [TS]

01:44:03   life for the entire time and when that [TS]

01:44:04   went away and I graduated you know we [TS]

01:44:06   hit we had simulations of that and IRC [TS]

01:44:09   channels and other type of things and [TS]

01:44:10   Twitter was the new version of this so [TS]

01:44:11   that's the Twitter the grouper thinks [TS]

01:44:13   that doesn't have enough broad enough [TS]

01:44:15   brought enough appeal [TS]

01:44:16   that's why Twitter is pushing this whole [TS]

01:44:19   like trending topics or activity view [TS]

01:44:22   and the hashtags and stuff like that and [TS]

01:44:24   then what you said was that Twitter's [TS]

01:44:28   decided to go in this direction [TS]

01:44:29   de-emphasizing direct messages and and [TS]

01:44:32   not not making Twitter look like the [TS]

01:44:33   thing that we all have been using [TS]

01:44:36   because it's decided that hashtags are [TS]

01:44:38   the way it can monetize the service now [TS]

01:44:42   what I think of those two opinions is [TS]

01:44:43   that you were much closer to being right [TS]

01:44:44   then then Gruber was because I think [TS]

01:44:46   that's that's 100% what it is I think [TS]

01:44:49   that the Twitter that we used in 2006 [TS]

01:44:51   does have humongously broad appeal [TS]

01:44:53   that's that little circle of friends so [TS]

01:44:56   you just talk to yeah everyone benefit [TS]

01:44:59   from using Twitter like that everyone [TS]

01:45:01   will love it everyone does that everyone [TS]

01:45:02   has some equivalent to that online uh [TS]

01:45:04   and Twitter being used like that has [TS]

01:45:07   huge value huge broad value and I think [TS]

01:45:09   the only reason that Twitter is not [TS]

01:45:12   pushing in that direction is because [TS]

01:45:13   they could not figure out how to make [TS]

01:45:15   money on that basically because like [TS]

01:45:17   those of us who use Twitter in that way [TS]

01:45:19   would be pissed if they said okay every [TS]

01:45:20   step you ten tweets we're gonna insert [TS]

01:45:21   an ad right and if your client [TS]

01:45:23   application blocks that ad we will [TS]

01:45:25   remove its API key and also you know it [TS]

01:45:27   just gets it this whole big thing they [TS]

01:45:29   just could not figure out how to make [TS]

01:45:30   money that way and think of all the [TS]

01:45:32   things that I've used in the past like [TS]

01:45:33   this IRC University bulletin board forum [TS]

01:45:37   all the all is different no one was [TS]

01:45:39   getting paid for that there was no money [TS]

01:45:40   it was a tiny little piece of university [TS]

01:45:41   infrastructure used for free no one was [TS]

01:45:43   making any money no ads no you know the [TS]

01:45:46   IRC thing we didn't know who cared who [TS]

01:45:47   ran you know freenode net or how the IRC [TS]

01:45:52   channel was there was no business plan [TS]

01:45:54   there twitter is the service that's huge [TS]

01:45:56   with billions of people in it someone's [TS]

01:45:59   got to pay for all that infrastructure [TS]

01:46:00   and the only way Twitter apparently is [TS]

01:46:02   figured out to get enough money to pay [TS]

01:46:03   for the infrastructure is with this [TS]

01:46:04   hashtag business so that's depressing to [TS]

01:46:08   me uh but I I definitely disagree that [TS]

01:46:12   the the Twitter that we use doesn't have [TS]

01:46:14   broad appeal I just this just they just [TS]

01:46:16   could not figure out how to monetize it [TS]

01:46:17   I agree with you of course he did [TS]

01:46:21   because then means you were right Gerber [TS]

01:46:23   was wrong well it's not so important to [TS]

01:46:26   me that he was right or wrong [TS]

01:46:28   I just I just think it's it's very [TS]

01:46:31   telling to me that well it's what [TS]

01:46:34   surprises me is that more people aren't [TS]

01:46:39   talking about it in those in those terms [TS]

01:46:41   in other words more people aren't [TS]

01:46:43   identifying what seems to me to be [TS]

01:46:45   fairly obvious that people keep saying I [TS]

01:46:47   don't understand why they're doing this [TS]

01:46:49   to Twitter why is this that there's an [TS]

01:46:51   icon here I didn't you know I don't know [TS]

01:46:53   what that is why is this like follow the [TS]

01:46:56   money I mean they that's it [TS]

01:46:58   they need they need to find out the way [TS]

01:47:00   and you know one of the responses to [TS]

01:47:02   that I wanted to add it follow-up from [TS]

01:47:03   another show from the talk show here is [TS]

01:47:07   a lot of people wrote in to say hashtags [TS]

01:47:11   on Twitter remind me the way that the [TS]

01:47:15   media and TV shows and things use them [TS]

01:47:17   very very much reminded people who are [TS]

01:47:20   writing in of AOL key words I was gonna [TS]

01:47:23   say QR codes but that's much better [TS]

01:47:25   analogy a what keywords in and I mean [TS]

01:47:27   the in both of those I think are valid [TS]

01:47:29   but for the longest time every single [TS]

01:47:32   you know you'd see a TV commercial for [TS]

01:47:34   toothbrushes keyword on AOL tea brush [TS]

01:47:37   you know I mean it was just the most it [TS]

01:47:39   was it was so so cheesy [TS]

01:47:41   but that's you know this is back in the [TS]

01:47:45   day when so many people were using AOL [TS]

01:47:47   that was how they were you know this is [TS]

01:47:50   back like in the you've got mail days [TS]

01:47:52   you know with people who just that was [TS]

01:47:56   their internet the AOL was the Internet [TS]

01:47:58   to that mail was online that's what that [TS]

01:48:00   meant it was AOL and for them the key [TS]

01:48:04   word and a company getting and using a [TS]

01:48:06   key word that was like that was a big [TS]

01:48:09   marketing thing for them and there's [TS]

01:48:11   probably people hopefully hopefully most [TS]

01:48:14   of the people listening to this show [TS]

01:48:15   have either never heard of that or [TS]

01:48:17   forgotten it because it was a dark time [TS]

01:48:19   for us on the internet but that's how a [TS]

01:48:22   well made money it was that's how they [TS]

01:48:24   made money they would sell the keywords [TS]

01:48:25   you'd have a movie or TV show or product [TS]

01:48:28   and you wanted to get listed there you'd [TS]

01:48:30   get the key word and that's how people [TS]

01:48:31   would like find your stuff on AOL and [TS]

01:48:34   now you know you don't the differences [TS]

01:48:37   with Twitter of course I don't I don't [TS]

01:48:40   think anybody has to pay [TS]

01:48:41   now maybe they do a thing where you can [TS]

01:48:43   pay and make sure that you're the first [TS]

01:48:45   result in the keyword if they're not [TS]

01:48:46   doing that they shall bring it on they [TS]

01:48:48   have the trending topics thing I don't [TS]

01:48:50   even that's other shady thing about [TS]

01:48:52   Twitter is like you're not sure how [TS]

01:48:53   their monitor right and that that's my [TS]

01:48:55   big question [TS]

01:48:55   that's exactly my big question is if I [TS]

01:48:58   put in let's say I put in a hashtag for [TS]

01:49:00   uh you know I this is going to be a [TS]

01:49:03   horrible example but for software now [TS]

01:49:06   the if there's a software company out [TS]

01:49:09   there that might want the results for [TS]

01:49:11   that can they go to Twitter and [TS]

01:49:13   essentially by the software hashtag and [TS]

01:49:16   if because all long after the the [TS]

01:49:21   implementation and a dot I mean we were [TS]

01:49:23   using hashtags before it was technically [TS]

01:49:25   something Twitter supported really and [TS]

01:49:28   very quickly they supported it [TS]

01:49:30   I believe I mean people were putting the [TS]

01:49:31   hashtags in there and before you could [TS]

01:49:33   really even do anything but search [TS]

01:49:34   looking for that that string maybe I'm [TS]

01:49:38   wrong about that the point is very [TS]

01:49:40   quickly after that Twitter adopted this [TS]

01:49:43   as the way to categorize your tweets and [TS]

01:49:46   people who were talking about a topic [TS]

01:49:48   would F course add the hashtag and it [TS]

01:49:50   would make it easier for them to find [TS]

01:49:51   what I'm wondering is now you know I [TS]

01:49:54   remember when you had trending hashtags [TS]

01:49:56   and things like that there was a thing [TS]

01:49:58   Lady Gaga was doing where was like [TS]

01:49:59   monsters are little monsters hashtag was [TS]

01:50:02   like the number one thing and they were [TS]

01:50:03   trying to get more people to put tweets [TS]

01:50:05   up with that hashtag to like make it go [TS]

01:50:07   to the top so that it now things have [TS]

01:50:10   changed and I'm under the impression it [TS]

01:50:12   may be wrong that like you're saying [TS]

01:50:15   some are those things promoted hashtags [TS]

01:50:18   or they you know it would be like when [TS]

01:50:20   you go to Google and you do a search [TS]

01:50:22   you'll see they're promoted promoted [TS]

01:50:25   results at the top do you ever click [TS]

01:50:27   those I add the Google ones every once [TS]

01:50:30   in a while they will put one up there [TS]

01:50:32   spy you alee end up doing their if I've [TS]

01:50:34   checked the first one or two pages of [TS]

01:50:35   results and not found anything then I'll [TS]

01:50:38   give the advertising ones a try or if [TS]

01:50:40   the results are so awful that they [TS]

01:50:42   clearly completely irrelevant and the [TS]

01:50:43   adla does look relevant I'll try it so I [TS]

01:50:45   do occasionally occasionally and and you [TS]

01:50:47   know with the hashtags it would make [TS]

01:50:50   sense for Twitter to be selling these [TS]

01:50:52   things but then [TS]

01:50:53   those of us who have all along been used [TS]

01:50:55   to thinking of them as being a more [TS]

01:50:58   natural audience created kind of thing [TS]

01:51:01   crowd-sourced kind of thing to know that [TS]

01:51:03   maybe they are maybe they're not anymore [TS]

01:51:05   it and this isn't a big deal but it does [TS]

01:51:09   a road a little bit of the trust that we [TS]

01:51:10   have in Twitter and the Twitter [TS]

01:51:12   community to know that maybe this isn't [TS]

01:51:16   quite what it seems and and they're [TS]

01:51:18   certainly not being transparent about [TS]

01:51:19   that I you know there are people and [TS]

01:51:22   again this goes back to the earlier [TS]

01:51:26   topic from a couple months ago when [TS]

01:51:28   Twitter did start changing the API and [TS]

01:51:30   it did start to change the way that the [TS]

01:51:33   website functioned these were all things [TS]

01:51:35   that were geared to change the way that [TS]

01:51:39   people were using Twitter in the way [TS]

01:51:41   that they think of of Twitter so that it [TS]

01:51:44   would it would line up with whatever was [TS]

01:51:47   that that they wanted to do to to create [TS]

01:51:50   money for themselves I mean now a lot of [TS]

01:51:53   the people I talked to John Gruber said [TS]

01:51:54   it on the talk show and I'm curious to [TS]

01:51:56   hear what you used to to access Twitter [TS]

01:51:59   he says oh he never goes to the website [TS]

01:52:00   now his reason was it's too slow do you [TS]

01:52:03   use the website do you go to Twitter com [TS]

01:52:05   never not unless like every other Avenue [TS]

01:52:08   is cut off to me and and it's [TS]

01:52:10   interesting that you say that I I use [TS]

01:52:12   the Twitter website probably more than I [TS]

01:52:14   use an app I do have the Twitter app on [TS]

01:52:16   the Mac and I use tweet BOTS on on the [TS]

01:52:19   iPhone but if you haven't been to the [TS]

01:52:22   site in a while it looks more like the [TS]

01:52:24   app than it ever has and it's got the [TS]

01:52:28   same home connect and discover up at the [TS]

01:52:31   top of it in the sidebar there are [TS]

01:52:33   things about it that are just pushing me [TS]

01:52:36   away from using this latest this latest [TS]

01:52:40   revision to the website is the thing [TS]

01:52:42   that's making me not use the website any [TS]

01:52:44   more up until this last one I could [TS]

01:52:46   abide it but now I can't abide it [TS]

01:52:48   there's is who to follow nonsense in the [TS]

01:52:51   sidebar I'm not sure if you've seen this [TS]

01:52:53   but you know you can't get rid it you [TS]

01:52:55   can't get rid of it to be fair to [TS]

01:52:56   Twitter and to support Gruber's argument [TS]

01:52:59   a little but I think you got it slightly [TS]

01:53:00   wrong and that the Twitter that we use [TS]

01:53:02   doesn't have broad appeal but the root [TS]

01:53:03   problem well so [TS]

01:53:06   even before I get to that I want to say [TS]

01:53:07   all the stuff they're doing with the [TS]

01:53:08   hashtags is not because like that's how [TS]

01:53:10   they that's how they think they can make [TS]

01:53:12   money I don't think it's even clear yet [TS]

01:53:14   that yes that is the best way to make [TS]

01:53:17   money or that it will make them the most [TS]

01:53:18   money but it's clear that this is the [TS]

01:53:21   direction they want to go and they want [TS]

01:53:22   if they think they can make money this [TS]

01:53:24   way not the other way so I don't wanna [TS]

01:53:25   make a thing like all they do - Texas I [TS]

01:53:26   get rich off but I don't I don't think [TS]

01:53:28   they are you I don't think they think [TS]

01:53:29   you're right but they're right but it's [TS]

01:53:31   clear they're going like they must they [TS]

01:53:32   had all their means so how can we make [TS]

01:53:34   money let's see learn things and say we [TS]

01:53:36   think we can make money this way and [TS]

01:53:37   they're going that direction and that [TS]

01:53:39   the answer is not clear now but the [TS]

01:53:40   other thing is that the way we use [TS]

01:53:42   Twitter and I've seen this before with [TS]

01:53:44   the the Bolton board stops on IRC and [TS]

01:53:46   stuff it's not easy to explain that to [TS]

01:53:50   to non nerds and even to nerds like when [TS]

01:53:52   I saw Twitter I didn't immediately [TS]

01:53:54   recognize Twitter as that thing that I [TS]

01:53:55   had been doing for years and years even [TS]

01:53:57   though I knew the value of that type of [TS]

01:53:59   thing that online water-cooler I didn't [TS]

01:54:02   recognize Twitter as that thing and even [TS]

01:54:04   if you explain this to somebody I mean [TS]

01:54:06   we've all seen this phenomenon people [TS]

01:54:08   you get someone to join for Twitter and [TS]

01:54:09   they don't get it they just like I don't [TS]

01:54:11   understand what is ell people just [TS]

01:54:12   typing things how do you know what's [TS]

01:54:13   going on and what Twitter as a product [TS]

01:54:17   from the beginning and now has always [TS]

01:54:18   been trying to do is oh their problem is [TS]

01:54:21   how do we express to people that this [TS]

01:54:24   thing has value we know we have [TS]

01:54:26   dedicated users who get value from this [TS]

01:54:27   but we have to take these new users and [TS]

01:54:29   without like calling them up on the [TS]

01:54:31   phone and at length trying to explain to [TS]

01:54:33   them how they can get value out of our [TS]

01:54:35   product like lead them into and that's [TS]

01:54:36   all like you know recommended followers [TS]

01:54:38   or who you might be interested in or [TS]

01:54:40   what's trending they're trying to say [TS]

01:54:42   come on this stuff here and we don't [TS]

01:54:43   know we can't tell you exactly where [TS]

01:54:45   your little circle of people is going to [TS]

01:54:46   be especially like if you don't have a [TS]

01:54:48   bunch of online nerd friends like so [TS]

01:54:49   you're just you know you just come [TS]

01:54:50   online you know nobody else who was who [TS]

01:54:52   was on Twitter you just come online it's [TS]

01:54:54   like will either convince all your other [TS]

01:54:56   friends to go on up but then your [TS]

01:54:57   friends are like there's no one holding [TS]

01:54:58   your hand saying this is how you can get [TS]

01:54:59   value out of this we had it easy [TS]

01:55:01   relatively and I even resisted was like [TS]

01:55:03   but we were all kind of there together [TS]

01:55:05   we knew who to follow when I went to [TS]

01:55:07   follow John Gerber he was already there [TS]

01:55:08   I knew John Gruber was I knew I want you [TS]

01:55:10   know what I mean we were all kind of in [TS]

01:55:12   it together but with new people you just [TS]

01:55:13   drop them into this I've seen it with [TS]

01:55:14   like my family and you know my wife for [TS]

01:55:17   example [TS]

01:55:18   I think she ought she was on that the [TS]

01:55:21   University of Bolton Board thing is [TS]

01:55:22   actually sort of how we met or partly [TS]

01:55:25   how we knew about each other [TS]

01:55:26   so she knows the value of this type of [TS]

01:55:28   thing but on Twitter like it's just it [TS]

01:55:32   doesn't she's not been able to penetrate [TS]

01:55:35   it she uses a different a different [TS]

01:55:37   services as something similar but [TS]

01:55:39   because all her friends aren't on it or [TS]

01:55:41   she doesn't think it's important for the [TS]

01:55:42   all her friends to be on it or whatever [TS]

01:55:43   what she does is she just reads my [TS]

01:55:44   timeline because it's like a good proxy [TS]

01:55:46   for her and doesn't even have an account [TS]

01:55:48   of Rona just reads my timeline to see [TS]

01:55:49   what's going on you know with my stuff [TS]

01:55:51   on Twitter and the people were [TS]

01:55:51   responding to me right but and and my [TS]

01:55:54   parents the same type of thing like I [TS]

01:55:56   tried to give them signed up for Twitter [TS]

01:55:58   and my brother and so they this they [TS]

01:56:00   just don't get it so all the stuff [TS]

01:56:01   that's what has always been doing is MIT [TS]

01:56:02   we got to find a way to show these [TS]

01:56:04   people what value our product has and [TS]

01:56:06   that I think is part of all this thing [TS]

01:56:09   that's like a confluence of things well [TS]

01:56:11   the hash tag stuff is we think we can [TS]

01:56:12   make money this way with these you know [TS]

01:56:14   trending topics and advertisers and [TS]

01:56:17   putting things in like we don't know how [TS]

01:56:18   we're going to do it quite yet and it's [TS]

01:56:19   kind of been ad hoc and who knows or [TS]

01:56:21   whatever but we think we can do [TS]

01:56:22   something about this and also we think [TS]

01:56:25   this is a good way to want someone lands [TS]

01:56:27   on Twitter to say here's people you [TS]

01:56:29   might be interested in here check this [TS]

01:56:30   out you know you know I think Google+ [TS]

01:56:33   does a really good job of it where it [TS]

01:56:34   will say here's people you might want to [TS]

01:56:36   put in your circles based on who you've [TS]

01:56:37   emailed who's also on you know that type [TS]

01:56:39   of thing yeah Google+ has access to more [TS]

01:56:41   when you land in Twitter you've got [TS]

01:56:42   nothing right wing Atlanta Google+ [TS]

01:56:44   presumably you have a gmail account or [TS]

01:56:45   something like that or it has some [TS]

01:56:47   better information about so if not it's [TS]

01:56:49   not nefarious or not entirely nefarious [TS]

01:56:52   but it is you know it's them struggling [TS]

01:56:56   with how to how to be successful with [TS]

01:57:01   their product and they're there doing [TS]

01:57:03   what they think is the best way to do it [TS]

01:57:04   and to be honest I don't know I've [TS]

01:57:06   failed to to convince people close to me [TS]

01:57:09   in my life of the value of Twitter and [TS]

01:57:11   I'm you know I talking right to them so [TS]

01:57:13   I I recognize their their difficulty and [TS]

01:57:16   of course of course all of us who know [TS]

01:57:18   exactly what the value is of Twitter is [TS]

01:57:20   don't like these changes we don't need [TS]

01:57:23   any help get this crap out of our face [TS]

01:57:24   we know exactly how we want it to work [TS]

01:57:26   and I feel bad for you using the website [TS]

01:57:29   because now I'm pretty much done [TS]

01:57:32   within now it's moving farther away from [TS]

01:57:34   what you want I want it out of the [TS]

01:57:35   website like the new Twitter this is the [TS]

01:57:37   new Twitter the new Twitter was like [TS]

01:57:39   yeah I've got some weird stuff but [TS]

01:57:40   doesn't get in the way of me using it [TS]

01:57:41   the way I want to use it now it's like [TS]

01:57:43   he's actively thwarting you right [TS]

01:57:45   there's my right I'm fine I'm fighting [TS]

01:57:47   with it so I'm done moving away now I [TS]

01:57:49   get it [TS]

01:57:50   switch over to the Twitter app and [TS]

01:57:52   Twitter African stuff get that yeah I've [TS]

01:57:54   been but I'm speaking to raps I've been [TS]

01:57:56   a Twitter user from the first release on [TS]

01:57:58   both the on both iOS and the Mac I've [TS]

01:58:02   tried all the other clients I in fact I [TS]

01:58:04   bought to be bought when it was on sale [TS]

01:58:05   and then loved the sales over but it's [TS]

01:58:06   not over you should go by tweet pot [TS]

01:58:08   Tweety official Twitter app like I have [TS]

01:58:12   many many Twitter clients Tweety on the [TS]

01:58:13   Mac now me too sweet deck but I've tried [TS]

01:58:15   them all always going back to Twitter if [TS]

01:58:17   ik and the reason I go back to her epic [TS]

01:58:18   is because it has a unified timeline [TS]

01:58:20   right so you can you can you can sit [TS]

01:58:22   down and say I've been gone from Twitter [TS]

01:58:24   for X hours you can scroll through it [TS]

01:58:26   and it's going to show you everything [TS]

01:58:28   from the people you follow and it's [TS]

01:58:30   going to show your at mentions in line [TS]

01:58:33   in chronological order on illogical [TS]

01:58:35   order so you know what's what's going on [TS]

01:58:37   as it happened and you know what else [TS]

01:58:39   has that university bulletin board forum [TS]

01:58:41   CS and IRC channels there and so it's [TS]

01:58:44   not such shocking why I do that right [TS]

01:58:45   and I to completely understand what [TS]

01:58:47   people like Gruber can't use it because [TS]

01:58:48   once you get a certain number of [TS]

01:58:49   followers you can't the the replies just [TS]

01:58:51   drown out you're just like all right [TS]

01:58:53   already I just want to see the people I [TS]

01:58:54   actually fall but I don't have them a [TS]

01:58:56   follower so I am still under percent [TS]

01:58:58   I read my timeline in order every single [TS]

01:59:00   tweet in chronological order and so I'm [TS]

01:59:03   shocked at how many Twitter clients [TS]

01:59:05   don't support that model because I have [TS]

01:59:07   to think there are more people like me [TS]

01:59:08   without so many followers that your [TS]

01:59:10   overwhelm or by replies than there are [TS]

01:59:11   like Gruber who having a separate reply [TS]

01:59:14   pain is just the only way to maintain [TS]

01:59:16   your sanity all right oh yeah it's weird [TS]

01:59:18   to me but but yeah those are all great [TS]

01:59:20   products and I occasionally poke around [TS]

01:59:22   and fire them up and use them and see [TS]