32: The Next Big Move


00:00:00   [Music] [TS]

00:00:02   you are listening to hypercritical [TS]

00:00:04   weekly talkshow ruminating on exactly [TS]

00:00:06   what is wrong in the world of Apple [TS]

00:00:07   related technologies and businesses [TS]

00:00:09   nothing is so perfect it cannot be [TS]

00:00:12   dissected by my co-host John siracusa [TS]

00:00:15   i'm dan benjamin this is episode number [TS]

00:00:17   32 it's been sponsored by audible.com as [TS]

00:00:21   well as our friends over at field notes [TS]

00:00:23   brand.com we will tell you about as the [TS]

00:00:26   program continues we also want to say [TS]

00:00:28   that bandwidth for this episode of [TS]

00:00:30   hypercritical it has been brought to you [TS]

00:00:32   by - green tech comm virtual private [TS]

00:00:36   servers [TS]

00:00:37   submerged in oil gets a free bandwidth [TS]

00:00:40   over there - green tech John siracusa [TS]

00:00:45   that's me we live in direct from an [TS]

00:00:47   undisclosed location [TS]

00:00:50   muddy undisclosed location is my [TS]

00:00:52   brother-in-law's house well disclosed [TS]

00:00:53   now it is indeed it is indeed with a not [TS]

00:00:59   so good internet connection right you [TS]

00:01:02   seem okay we'll see how it worked one [TS]

00:01:04   point four megabits up max it's enough [TS]

00:01:08   to carry your dulcet tones to Austin [TS]

00:01:11   Texas where we record these shows every [TS]

00:01:14   week it's good to be back with you John [TS]

00:01:17   and I just I would like to thank you I'd [TS]

00:01:19   like to thank you on the air I haven't [TS]

00:01:20   shown this to faith yet but I'd like to [TS]

00:01:22   thank you on the air for the lovely gift [TS]

00:01:24   that you sent my my new baby daughter [TS]

00:01:26   may I share what it is is it differe go [TS]

00:01:29   for it uh this is very cool and by the [TS]

00:01:32   way I just want to add shame on all of [TS]

00:01:34   the other co-hosts nobody else has sent [TS]

00:01:37   any any kind of gift you don't know that [TS]

00:01:39   they might not gotten there yet [TS]

00:01:41   really you're right it might not have [TS]

00:01:43   gotten there two weeks later still [TS]

00:01:44   hasn't gotten here well you know it [TS]

00:01:46   takes time to find something pick [TS]

00:01:48   something out you know yeah of all the [TS]

00:01:50   people that I thought wouldn't send [TS]

00:01:51   something I was surprised from you maybe [TS]

00:01:53   your wife is rubbing off on you lovely [TS]

00:01:56   wife mrs. Epps why you get married so [TS]

00:01:58   you can have someone to tell you what [TS]

00:02:00   the social norms are for so this doing [TS]

00:02:02   this is what this is what mrs. circular [TS]

00:02:04   sent the the care package we received [TS]

00:02:09   included a onesie that [TS]

00:02:12   is a first level human onesie it's a D&D [TS]

00:02:17   reference level one human charisma of [TS]

00:02:20   eighteen strength I think was two or [TS]

00:02:23   something like that so that's accurate [TS]

00:02:24   very cute I appreciate the LARPing [TS]

00:02:26   reference there and also an adorable now [TS]

00:02:30   this thing looked handmade I'm not I'm [TS]

00:02:32   not sure if it was I'm going don't tell [TS]

00:02:33   me if it wasn't far in my mind missus [TS]

00:02:35   Syracuse and knitted this thing herself [TS]

00:02:37   she did I picked out the onesie though [TS]

00:02:39   don't we of course you picked out the [TS]

00:02:41   ones that loved it loved it by the way [TS]

00:02:42   my wife out enjoyed it in the way that [TS]

00:02:45   she appreciated something that she knows [TS]

00:02:46   only I would appreciate uh but this is a [TS]

00:02:50   beautiful it's a little it's a little [TS]

00:02:51   faith you're gonna love this winning so [TS]

00:02:52   yeah it's a little cap it's a little [TS]

00:02:54   pumpkin and then it's hand knitted it [TS]

00:02:57   looks like you put on a little kid's [TS]

00:02:58   head is a little it's a little pumpkin a [TS]

00:03:01   little pumpkin it's a cutest little [TS]

00:03:02   thing a nice little card and here's the [TS]

00:03:06   here's the thing this is how you know [TS]

00:03:07   John is a dad because not only does he [TS]

00:03:10   send something for for Marla he sent [TS]

00:03:13   something for the boy too and yet more [TS]

00:03:17   than one thing he sent and these two [TS]

00:03:20   cars you know from the movie Pixar movie [TS]

00:03:22   car course at Pixar from the movie Cars [TS]

00:03:24   2 that he didn't have oh he flipped out [TS]

00:03:27   he loved it Joel could be and Joel got a [TS]

00:03:28   card he's carrying around this card he [TS]

00:03:30   it's a dinosaur card he's carrying that [TS]

00:03:31   around [TS]

00:03:32   very thoughtful John thank you thank you [TS]

00:03:34   to mrs. siracusa well you're very [TS]

00:03:36   welcoming yes they hat is handmade very [TS]

00:03:38   nice it looked and it really looked [TS]

00:03:40   handmade it looked very special and the [TS]

00:03:41   little top part a little pumpkin is just [TS]

00:03:44   it looks like a little you know the [TS]

00:03:45   little what do they call that on the top [TS]

00:03:47   that's stem and / beautiful really nice [TS]

00:03:50   really thoughtful yeah you got to get [TS]

00:03:53   something the other kid you learn that [TS]

00:03:55   when you have two kids of your own [TS]

00:03:56   because right at the beginning of the [TS]

00:03:58   end of his life at the center of your [TS]

00:04:00   universe that's right so how are you [TS]

00:04:05   you're on vacation man you take a lot of [TS]

00:04:06   vacations it's the same amount every [TS]

00:04:09   year you know I go to Long Island for a [TS]

00:04:12   little while with my family then we [TS]

00:04:13   usually visit my wife's family around [TS]

00:04:15   Labor Day around that week I had an [TS]

00:04:18   extra one this year because I went to [TS]

00:04:20   WWC so that was my extra vacation this [TS]

00:04:23   year those were all vacation days [TS]

00:04:24   carried over from last year [TS]

00:04:26   are you gonna be it South by this year [TS]

00:04:28   no what if I what if I flew you out here [TS]

00:04:30   because it this is the end of my [TS]

00:04:32   vacation days I mean I have a one or two [TS]

00:04:34   left for the Christmas vacation but [TS]

00:04:36   that's it what if I fly out what for all [TS]

00:04:38   expenses paid I bring out the South by [TS]

00:04:40   you coming not that it doesn't make me [TS]

00:04:43   not have to go to work what if I pay you [TS]

00:04:45   the lost time in salary you have to if [TS]

00:04:49   you can clear it with my boss he's not [TS]

00:04:51   going to be there and we're gonna pay a [TS]

00:04:52   salary what's going on is how high are [TS]

00:04:54   you doing anything their idea if you get [TS]

00:04:57   here I am no I don't have the extra time [TS]

00:05:00   off and I heard that a lot of people [TS]

00:05:01   aren't going to that this year anyway [TS]

00:05:02   yeah and like they're disillusioned with [TS]

00:05:04   the when they hear about what we're [TS]

00:05:07   doing they'll be changing their mind I [TS]

00:05:08   don't know I was hearing everybody [TS]

00:05:10   wasn't going because they're now it's [TS]

00:05:12   too big for them I haven't heard any [TS]

00:05:13   know they say that every year and every [TS]

00:05:15   year the people go every never meeting [TS]

00:05:17   so I can't tell you whether it's getting [TS]

00:05:20   worse sir [TS]

00:05:21   what if I want to have my what if I want [TS]

00:05:22   to have my own 5x5 all-stars conference [TS]

00:05:25   and I bring over all up the host sound [TS]

00:05:27   would you go to that I'd still need to [TS]

00:05:29   clear with your boss yeah I mean and I [TS]

00:05:31   can't manufacture vacation days out of [TS]

00:05:33   thin air okay we'll talk about it later [TS]

00:05:40   all right so how are things they're fine [TS]

00:05:44   lot has been going on yeah yeah we must [TS]

00:05:48   do when you're in your absence how was [TS]

00:05:49   your daddy days you know it was great [TS]

00:05:52   great great being here for the birth [TS]

00:05:54   grade being able to spend time with the [TS]

00:05:56   boy when the baby came home and all that [TS]

00:05:58   stuff great time off I was telling Marco [TS]

00:06:01   yesterday it's not like it's a vacation [TS]

00:06:02   when you're home like you know with your [TS]

00:06:04   three and a half year old and your wife [TS]

00:06:06   who just give birth and a new baby it's [TS]

00:06:08   not it's not a vacation but it was great [TS]

00:06:11   I'm feel like I'm on vacation how come [TS]

00:06:14   comparatively to the amount of work that [TS]

00:06:15   was doing but I have to act like it's a [TS]

00:06:18   lot of like I'm really exhausted at the [TS]

00:06:20   end of the day I mean I am but I have to [TS]

00:06:22   because otherwise then I wind up having [TS]

00:06:23   to do the dishes to you taking advantage [TS]

00:06:25   of the fact that your wife doesn't [TS]

00:06:26   listen to the show - yeah she doesn't [TS]

00:06:28   ever listen openly complain and she'll [TS]

00:06:30   never ever see duties of fatherhood yeah [TS]

00:06:32   she'll never listen because she knows we [TS]

00:06:34   talked about the Indian stuff yeah so [TS]

00:06:37   right away she turns out [TS]

00:06:39   she listens the Palio show I don't know [TS]

00:06:41   if she doesn't see any others this is [TS]

00:06:43   the Paleo show of all the shows that [TS]

00:06:44   listen to Joe she's she's actually [TS]

00:06:46   responsible for getting that one on the [TS]

00:06:48   network that because she introduced me [TS]

00:06:49   to Angelo who does it and we I started [TS]

00:06:53   became a fan of the show and got it [TS]

00:06:54   again that's her thing [TS]

00:06:56   paleo baby it's our baby now [TS]

00:07:00   paleo baby all right enough of this [TS]

00:07:03   what's going on in the world Everson [TS]

00:07:05   follow-up yes [TS]

00:07:06   suppose is this follow-up to stuff that [TS]

00:07:07   you did with Ryan that's right okay [TS]

00:07:10   let's hear it so out of the loop did you [TS]

00:07:12   did you even listen to those episodes I [TS]

00:07:13   have listened to I'm catching up slowly [TS]

00:07:15   and I'm done with the first week I'm [TS]

00:07:17   catching up the second week all right [TS]

00:07:19   well then maybe you don't know what were [TS]

00:07:20   following up about but it's not I don't [TS]

00:07:21   have a lot so the first follow-up item [TS]

00:07:24   is uh on last week's show I was talking [TS]

00:07:26   about Apple's new Thunderbolt Display [TS]

00:07:31   and then I was going over this cringe Li [TS]

00:07:34   article where he talks about the [TS]

00:07:36   possibility of video cards being built [TS]

00:07:39   into the display and all sorts of other [TS]

00:07:40   strange pipe dreams but throughout the [TS]

00:07:43   episode apparently I kept calling it the [TS]

00:07:44   30 inch display screen just wishful [TS]

00:07:47   thinking it is not a 30 inch display as [TS]

00:07:48   people pointed out to me its 27-inch it [TS]

00:07:51   replaces the old 30 inch which is kind [TS]

00:07:52   of a shame because the old 30 inch had a [TS]

00:07:54   higher res than the new one hmm [TS]

00:07:56   but they made the 27 inches their new [TS]

00:07:58   biggest display and it's got a [TS]

00:08:00   thunderbolt bists and so on and so forth [TS]

00:08:01   so yes it is a 27 inch display I was not [TS]

00:08:04   referring to a new 30 inch display that [TS]

00:08:06   nobody knows about but me I was just [TS]

00:08:07   miss misspoke right all right good and [TS]

00:08:13   you know it's kind of interesting that [TS]

00:08:14   the I was looking up the URL for that [TS]

00:08:16   thing it's like Apple comm slash [TS]

00:08:17   displays its plural but there's only one [TS]

00:08:20   display now like there's no more 24-inch [TS]

00:08:22   there's no smaller sizes it's just the [TS]

00:08:25   one the 27-inch Apple Thunderbolt [TS]

00:08:27   Display is the only display that Apple [TS]

00:08:29   sells right now and if you don't like it [TS]

00:08:31   that big you don't want thunderbolt [TS]

00:08:32   tough luck I guess maybe someday they'll [TS]

00:08:35   add more but the URL still is plural and [TS]

00:08:38   also I was looking at that thing that we [TS]

00:08:41   didn't talk about this because I think [TS]

00:08:43   it happened after you were gone but I [TS]

00:08:44   actually have one of those displays on [TS]

00:08:45   order and it's not shipping until like [TS]

00:08:47   September 2000 year in for the new [TS]

00:08:49   display yeah yeah [TS]

00:08:52   I was surprised that there was a [TS]

00:08:53   shipping delighted you have you heard [TS]

00:08:54   people complaining about it I figured oh [TS]

00:08:56   yeah you know they'll come in a couple [TS]

00:08:58   days and I looked at the expected ship [TS]

00:09:00   date and it was September 20th hmm so I [TS]

00:09:02   guess I guess nobody has them I've never [TS]

00:09:04   heard of anyone having one now that I [TS]

00:09:05   thought about so maybe they're just back [TS]

00:09:07   ordered whatever but anyway looking at [TS]

00:09:09   the picture I was worried about remember [TS]

00:09:11   with heat when the 24 inch came out it [TS]

00:09:13   was the first one with the little rat [TS]

00:09:14   tail thing with the power connector for [TS]

00:09:16   your laptop yes the and the didn't have [TS]

00:09:19   Thunderbolt I don't had some other [TS]

00:09:20   connector but on the on the sides of the [TS]

00:09:24   laptop some models have the power thing [TS]

00:09:27   and USB or whatever on the same side and [TS]

00:09:29   some of them have it on the opposite [TS]

00:09:31   side so on the air is for instance the [TS]

00:09:33   Thunderbolt Display is on one side of [TS]

00:09:35   the laptop but the power connector is on [TS]

00:09:37   the other so the rat tail has to kind of [TS]

00:09:38   spread into a Y shape and I believe the [TS]

00:09:40   rat tail on the 24 inch was just barely [TS]

00:09:43   long enough if you stretched out the [TS]

00:09:45   cable to plug in the power on one side [TS]

00:09:46   and the USB thing Ollie on the other now [TS]

00:09:49   if you look on their website they have [TS]

00:09:50   pictures of it connected to an air and [TS]

00:09:52   you kinda can't see if the cables are [TS]

00:09:54   stretched or not they don't look like [TS]

00:09:55   they're stretched but I'm a little bit [TS]

00:09:57   concerned that when I get the thing I'm [TS]

00:09:59   not sure it will how well the cable will [TS]

00:10:02   reach from one side or an air to another [TS]

00:10:04   I ordered an air for my wife by the way [TS]

00:10:06   that's that's what this thing is going [TS]

00:10:07   to be connected to uh so she's replacing [TS]

00:10:09   her her MacBook Pro with what I hope [TS]

00:10:12   will be the best of both worlds is you [TS]

00:10:14   know 13-inch air all maxed out for [TS]

00:10:16   portability but then when she hooks it [TS]

00:10:18   up to the big display the big display [TS]

00:10:20   will have Ethernet connected to it and [TS]

00:10:22   an external hard drive and all this [TS]

00:10:23   other good stuff you know our hard drive [TS]

00:10:25   so when she's at the desktop it should [TS]

00:10:27   behave like a pretty good iMac and then [TS]

00:10:30   when she's portable it should behave [TS]

00:10:32   like a really light laptop so we'll see [TS]

00:10:34   how this goes no pardon me for not not [TS]

00:10:36   you know if I'm going to repeat [TS]

00:10:37   something that you did discuss with Ryan [TS]

00:10:39   that I either missed or I haven't heard [TS]

00:10:41   in the episode yet but Todd talked about [TS]

00:10:44   the Ethernet port on the back of this [TS]

00:10:45   thing so I'm I'm kind of interested in [TS]

00:10:49   how this is going to work to thee from [TS]

00:10:51   the Apple's website it's you connect the [TS]

00:10:53   thunderbolt connector from the display [TS]

00:10:55   to your Mac and then it's as if your Mac [TS]

00:10:57   has those ports on it knob right here [TS]

00:10:59   doesn't have an Ethernet port doesn't [TS]

00:11:00   have a FireWire port but under bolt is [TS]

00:11:02   basically PCI Express over a wire so [TS]

00:11:04   this is as if [TS]

00:11:06   those devices were connected to the PCI [TS]

00:11:08   Express bus inside your computer the [TS]

00:11:10   thing I wonder about is like what's the [TS]

00:11:12   connect/disconnect procedure if I just [TS]

00:11:14   like yank that cable out that's exactly [TS]

00:11:16   what I was thinking [TS]

00:11:17   does the Mac suddenly think it doesn't [TS]

00:11:19   have an Ethernet port like the support [TS]

00:11:20   the interface appear and go away and [TS]

00:11:22   everything is cool with that or or for [TS]

00:11:25   example if I have I'm going to have a [TS]

00:11:26   firewire hard drive connected to the [TS]

00:11:28   monitor right so when I connect the Mac [TS]

00:11:30   with a thunderbolt port that firewall [TS]

00:11:31   harv will mount I'm assuming I have to [TS]

00:11:33   unmount that hard drive on the macbook [TS]

00:11:36   air before yank out that Thunderbolt [TS]

00:11:37   cable so this will all be an interesting [TS]

00:11:40   experiment because I really don't know [TS]

00:11:41   how this will behave with the operating [TS]

00:11:44   system and all the other things but I'm [TS]

00:11:45   hoping able it will really be the best [TS]

00:11:47   of both worlds but because she was [TS]

00:11:49   thinking of getting an iMac but I wanted [TS]

00:11:50   to have at least one portable in the [TS]

00:11:51   house and I like the air you know it's [TS]

00:11:53   great for ya [TS]

00:11:54   portability more than that 50 inch thing [TS]

00:11:56   we've been lugging her what else you got [TS]

00:11:58   Oh a little bit of follow up on Mac Ruby [TS]

00:12:03   the Mac Ruby people keep emailing me I [TS]

00:12:06   thought last time we talked about Mac [TS]

00:12:08   Ruby I forget when it was we're talking [TS]

00:12:10   about lion I think it was in the Ark [TS]

00:12:11   episode I was mentioning Mac Ruby as the [TS]

00:12:17   one of the contenders for Apple's new [TS]

00:12:20   memory managed language but I went [TS]

00:12:24   through my whole thing about how I don't [TS]

00:12:25   like bridges and so on and any time I [TS]

00:12:26   mention that the Macra people email me [TS]

00:12:28   and tell me the Mac Ruby is in a bridge [TS]

00:12:30   you despite the fact that I thought I [TS]

00:12:31   accurately represented what Mac Ruby [TS]

00:12:34   does the fact that Ruby objects are [TS]

00:12:35   objective-c objects that all the strings [TS]

00:12:38   are NS strings that the Ruby associative [TS]

00:12:41   arrays or hashes or whatever they're [TS]

00:12:42   called are you know NS mutable [TS]

00:12:44   dictionaries under the covers like that [TS]

00:12:45   it's not the same as Ruby cocoa or [TS]

00:12:49   whatever the thing that was really like [TS]

00:12:51   taking the Ruby runtime and also having [TS]

00:12:53   the objective-c runtime then bridging [TS]

00:12:54   between them what it comes down to I [TS]

00:12:57   think is semantics of what each party [TS]

00:12:59   considers a bridge I was actually trying [TS]

00:13:02   to look up like the technical computer [TS]

00:13:04   science definition of a bridge but [TS]

00:13:06   apparently it's a vague enough term that [TS]

00:13:07   it's not you know there's no [TS]

00:13:11   hard-and-fast definition for a bridge [TS]

00:13:12   I'm sure everybody thinks their [TS]

00:13:14   definition is the hard and fast there's [TS]

00:13:15   no definition of a bridge but I found so [TS]

00:13:17   many different definitions online [TS]

00:13:18   what's that's the sort of predominant [TS]

00:13:20   one well one reasonably good definition [TS]

00:13:24   is that you are spanning from one [TS]

00:13:28   runtime to another Ruby is like you know [TS]

00:13:31   you've got your Ruby executable like I [TS]

00:13:33   don't know with the plain old one is [TS]

00:13:35   called but though not the Rubinius not [TS]

00:13:37   maglev not Ruby on JVM but like the [TS]

00:13:39   default you know what that one is called [TS]

00:13:40   your Ruby guy like the C program written [TS]

00:13:43   by Matz that runs Ruby I think they just [TS]

00:13:46   call it the interpreter to compile or [TS]

00:13:48   whatever I mean we don't talk in the [TS]

00:13:50   Ruby world we don't talk about such [TS]

00:13:51   things you do there's a name for just [TS]

00:13:53   type code and it will just works and it [TS]

00:13:54   looks great uh-huh anyway so there's [TS]

00:13:57   that there's a big sea program coffee [TS]

00:13:59   that runs Ruby code in that you can be [TS]

00:14:02   considered one runtime because it [TS]

00:14:03   executes your Ruby code inside there [TS]

00:14:05   it's got little structures that it moves [TS]

00:14:06   around and blah blah and then you've got [TS]

00:14:08   Objective C which has its own runtime [TS]

00:14:09   that does all the message dispatching [TS]

00:14:11   and the tracking of objects and classes [TS]

00:14:12   and all that stuff and if you are [TS]

00:14:15   running both those runtimes at the same [TS]

00:14:18   time you're certainly running a bridge [TS]

00:14:19   because you have to span these two [TS]

00:14:21   worlds you're running the Ruby [TS]

00:14:22   interpreter and then you're running this [TS]

00:14:23   objective-c thing and you're somehow [TS]

00:14:25   making them communicate so that's [TS]

00:14:26   clearly a bridge okay now I consider Mac [TS]

00:14:29   Ruby still to be a bridge or at least [TS]

00:14:31   bridge II because you're writing in one [TS]

00:14:34   language and talking to an API that was [TS]

00:14:38   designed for a different language so [TS]

00:14:40   even though you're writing Ruby code [TS]

00:14:41   it's eventually calling Objective C [TS]

00:14:42   functions that had that when they were [TS]

00:14:44   written had no idea they were going to [TS]

00:14:45   be called by something else and it's not [TS]

00:14:46   like you know they're just being called [TS]

00:14:48   distantly or remotely it's it's a very [TS]

00:14:50   close mapping where you I can make you [TS]

00:14:52   know I can look up in the cocoa [TS]

00:14:53   documentation here's this API here the [TS]

00:14:55   parameter names here's what they expect [TS]

00:14:57   so on and so forth and then I can make a [TS]

00:14:59   Mac Ruby call it looks vaguely like that [TS]

00:15:02   you know and there's other kind of I'm a [TS]

00:15:05   mouthful and it's a bridging arrow like [TS]

00:15:07   well like I said the boy when you have a [TS]

00:15:08   Ruby string is really an objective-c [TS]

00:15:10   string when you have a ruby object [TS]

00:15:11   freely in Objective C object what [TS]

00:15:12   they've done in Mac Ruby's try to take [TS]

00:15:15   the Ruby runtime out of the equation [TS]

00:15:16   it's just no it's just the objective-c [TS]

00:15:18   runtime [TS]

00:15:18   you just get to write to it with a [TS]

00:15:20   different language I still consider that [TS]

00:15:22   a bridge just because I imagine if Apple [TS]

00:15:24   did try to say this is the new way we're [TS]

00:15:25   writing Mac programs then someone the [TS]

00:15:29   chat room came up with the name for the [TS]

00:15:31   thing I was just talking [TS]

00:15:32   it's MRI Matz's Ruby implementation yeah [TS]

00:15:35   yeah so anyway I consider a bridge [TS]

00:15:37   because if you were to say this is the [TS]

00:15:38   way that you're going to make cocoa [TS]

00:15:40   applications from now on all the [TS]

00:15:41   objective-c guys would be like well [TS]

00:15:43   objective-c is still the quote/unquote [TS]

00:15:45   native way to write applications and [TS]

00:15:47   yeah you could use this Ruby thing but [TS]

00:15:49   if I want to do XY and Z I still need to [TS]

00:15:51   have my little pointers and do my stuff [TS]

00:15:53   and what if I want to connect to C code [TS]

00:15:54   and have it mixed in and what if I want [TS]

00:15:56   to do stuff in CG or CF and stuff like [TS]

00:15:59   other API is that our plane C those are [TS]

00:16:01   even more weirdly bridge that's what I [TS]

00:16:04   mean by bridge that there would be that [TS]

00:16:07   it seems like some other thing that [TS]

00:16:08   you're talking to the old thing but [TS]

00:16:10   you're using this completely other [TS]

00:16:11   language that came from elsewhere that [TS]

00:16:13   Apple didn't invent that isn't tailored [TS]

00:16:15   to this purpose but it's been molded to [TS]

00:16:16   it and that I get the impression that [TS]

00:16:18   programmers would consider that not to [TS]

00:16:21   be native like there would be this [TS]

00:16:22   dichotomy between the people saying I [TS]

00:16:24   write native objective-c applications [TS]

00:16:25   and you're doing it with your little [TS]

00:16:27   bridge language versus what I was [TS]

00:16:29   talking about where they slowly change [TS]

00:16:31   slowly take their existing Objective C [TS]

00:16:34   language and keep adding strictures to [TS]

00:16:36   it until you're not allowed to do the [TS]

00:16:38   dangerous stuff anymore you know and [TS]

00:16:40   then maybe eventually have some you know [TS]

00:16:43   slowly change the syntax adding your [TS]

00:16:45   directives saying okay now you don't [TS]

00:16:46   have to have that h files okay now you [TS]

00:16:48   have memory safety but you can't do X Y [TS]

00:16:50   it like approach this new language by [TS]

00:16:52   taking what you have and shaving off the [TS]

00:16:54   sharp parts and eventually giving the [TS]

00:16:57   new thing a new name I felt like that [TS]

00:16:58   would maybe in the end the [TS]

00:17:00   implementation wise it would look very [TS]

00:17:01   similar to what Mac Ruby does in terms [TS]

00:17:03   of talking to the objective-c runtime by [TS]

00:17:06   writing code that's not strictly [TS]

00:17:07   objective-c but anyway the Mac Ruby [TS]

00:17:11   people are still very upset that I call [TS]

00:17:13   it a bridge and I've said many times Mac [TS]

00:17:15   Ruby is the only reasonable contender I [TS]

00:17:18   can see out there if Apple was going to [TS]

00:17:19   go with let's take a language not [TS]

00:17:21   invented by us and use that as a new [TS]

00:17:23   programming language and many people say [TS]

00:17:24   you know apples supporting Mac Ruby [TS]

00:17:26   their Apple developers to contribute to [TS]

00:17:27   it it's been getting better so on and so [TS]

00:17:29   forth I just don't see the Apple push [TS]

00:17:33   behind that language yet maybe they're [TS]

00:17:35   being super-secret and they're just [TS]

00:17:36   going to fool me and come out next WBC [TS]

00:17:38   and say ah haha Mac Ruby it's all [TS]

00:17:39   awesome now that's our new language it [TS]

00:17:41   could be I just don't see it yet so the [TS]

00:17:43   people who are very enthusiastic about [TS]

00:17:44   Mac Ruby and [TS]

00:17:46   it's going to be the next big thing they [TS]

00:17:47   could be right but I don't think their [TS]

00:17:49   enthusiasm is based on substantial [TS]

00:17:51   evidence at this point other than the [TS]

00:17:53   fact that is the only real contender and [TS]

00:17:54   that it does have some Apple support I [TS]

00:17:56   mean in the past many other things have [TS]

00:17:57   had some Apple support like PI [TS]

00:17:59   objective-c has had some apple sport in [TS]

00:18:01   the past and I figure with the other [TS]

00:18:03   bridges new did Ruby cocoa have any [TS]

00:18:04   Apple support anyway a lot lots of [TS]

00:18:05   things have had the support of Apple [TS]

00:18:07   programmers or apples a company at [TS]

00:18:09   various times and if still not actually [TS]

00:18:12   gone anywhere ZFS is another good [TS]

00:18:14   example so you never know until an [TS]

00:18:15   announcement is made but I did want to [TS]

00:18:17   address the Mac where we people [TS]

00:18:18   hopefully this will keep them from [TS]

00:18:20   yelling at me you guys do have the best [TS]

00:18:23   vaguely bridge like thing that's not [TS]

00:18:26   technically a bridge if you want to say [TS]

00:18:28   that but I still think that the other [TS]

00:18:32   alternatives have more support behind [TS]

00:18:35   them in terms of what Apple is actually [TS]

00:18:37   officially announced and done I still [TS]

00:18:39   are you still would you still say you're [TS]

00:18:40   completely diametrically opposed to all [TS]

00:18:43   bridges of all kinds yeah I mean a thing [TS]

00:18:48   about Mac Ruby is if Apple decided to [TS]

00:18:50   support it and they just shoved it [TS]

00:18:52   through it's not it's not terrible it [TS]

00:18:54   wouldn't wouldn't be bad but I what I'm [TS]

00:18:57   not in support of is the idea that that [TS]

00:19:01   can come to pass without humongous Apple [TS]

00:19:05   support that just somehow by this thing [TS]

00:19:06   being developed in the background kind [TS]

00:19:07   of with these people it's going to be [TS]

00:19:09   the future right you need full Apple [TS]

00:19:11   support for whatever the solution is [TS]

00:19:12   going to be and thus far certainly app I [TS]

00:19:14   mean I don't think Apple has ever [TS]

00:19:14   mentioned the words Mac Ruby on a stage [TS]

00:19:17   no WWDC you know so it's so far from [TS]

00:19:21   being the thing where's Apple has many [TS]

00:19:25   many times take an objective seat and [TS]

00:19:27   started adding stuff to it changing the [TS]

00:19:29   language chopping off sharp edges and [TS]

00:19:30   arc is a really big step in that [TS]

00:19:31   direction so I think there's much more [TS]

00:19:32   evidence for Apple going in the [TS]

00:19:35   direction of modifying objective-c by [TS]

00:19:38   bits and pieces than there is for it [TS]

00:19:39   going with one of the bridges sure or [TS]

00:19:41   non bridges alright that's it for my [TS]

00:19:43   follow-up it's all you got huh yeah I do [TS]

00:19:46   have other miscellaneous file but I want [TS]

00:19:48   to get to our main topic for the day can [TS]

00:19:51   you guess what that is the HP tablet [TS]

00:19:59   coming back and having a fire sale on it [TS]

00:20:02   no oh that is that's a good dumb story [TS]

00:20:06   this week but I don't think this [TS]

00:20:08   anything to say about that hmm no even [TS]

00:20:11   though he talked about it in all your [TS]

00:20:12   other shows I didn't get a chance to [TS]

00:20:13   talk about I don't want to talk about [TS]

00:20:14   Steve Jobs of course it happened while [TS]

00:20:17   you were gone it did I actually came [TS]

00:20:19   back to talk about that yeah you know [TS]

00:20:24   you talked about with Gruber talked [TS]

00:20:25   about with Marco you're gonna talk about [TS]

00:20:26   with me it's you know I would love to [TS]

00:20:28   talk about it with you especially [TS]

00:20:31   because I anticipate your opinion to be [TS]

00:20:36   somewhat different maybe from well those [TS]

00:20:41   two guys did cover a lot of stuff that I [TS]

00:20:43   wanted to say but I have some extra [TS]

00:20:44   stuff dad so no show dude should we get [TS]

00:20:46   rich should we clear out the one of the [TS]

00:20:48   sponsorships to sort of clear clear the [TS]

00:20:49   pipes a little bit that's a good idea [TS]

00:20:51   see if with the connection walled up for [TS]

00:20:52   this it's a well you know we added that [TS]

00:20:55   stuff out but for the people who weren't [TS]

00:20:57   listening live connection issues have [TS]

00:21:01   been happening so we'll just cross our [TS]

00:21:04   fingers because as soon as I soon as [TS]

00:21:06   that we change topics for any reason the [TS]

00:21:09   connection drop so we'll just cross our [TS]

00:21:11   fingers right all right [TS]

00:21:12   audible audible calm leading provider [TS]

00:21:14   spoken audio information entertainment [TS]

00:21:16   listen audiobooks whenever and wherever [TS]

00:21:19   you want and this is great if you have a [TS]

00:21:21   new baby and you want something to [TS]

00:21:23   listen to it at 2:00 a.m. and the baby [TS]

00:21:25   is awake because if you want to listen [TS]

00:21:27   to it audible has it they've got over 85 [TS]

00:21:29   thousand titles virtually every genre [TS]

00:21:31   you will find what you're looking for [TS]

00:21:33   and you can get a free audiobook in a [TS]

00:21:36   14-day trial this how they do it they [TS]

00:21:37   have they have a subscription service [TS]

00:21:39   and you sign up in basically you you [TS]

00:21:41   determine what you want to consume how [TS]

00:21:42   much you want again and you can get it [TS]

00:21:45   is great it's not like you have to buy [TS]

00:21:47   it oh I want this book I'm going to go [TS]

00:21:49   buy this book it's a totally different [TS]

00:21:50   way of thinking and it's great I really [TS]

00:21:52   recommend it they have a special URL [TS]

00:21:53   just for listeners of this show audible [TS]

00:21:56   podcast.com slash hypercritical you go [TS]

00:21:59   there you get a free book you get a [TS]

00:22:02   14-day trial I can't promise but they [TS]

00:22:05   may send you a teddy bear is that this [TS]

00:22:06   faith or they still maybe not doing [TS]

00:22:08   tests she says no no teddy bears but I [TS]

00:22:11   may send e one you never know [TS]

00:22:12   and one of the things I'd like to do is [TS]

00:22:14   I say what do you what are you listening [TS]

00:22:15   to they want to know what we're [TS]

00:22:16   listening to so what I have queued up [TS]

00:22:19   here is at you know apropos of the Steve [TS]

00:22:23   Jobs topic in general there was another [TS]

00:22:25   Steve Jobs book that did come out a [TS]

00:22:26   while ago but the one that I have queued [TS]

00:22:28   up the one I'm starting is it-it's [TS]

00:22:29   called I love this title John icon Steve [TS]

00:22:33   Jobs I don't love this but I do I do [TS]

00:22:36   really think I'm going to draw this book [TS]

00:22:37   it's called the greatest second act in [TS]

00:22:39   the history of business we have this in [TS]

00:22:41   the show notes so this is what I have [TS]

00:22:43   queued up I haven't listened to it yet [TS]

00:22:44   I'm about to start listening to this one [TS]

00:22:45   when I'm done with the previous one very [TS]

00:22:48   excited about this because really it is [TS]

00:22:50   the greatest second act I'm hoping [TS]

00:22:51   you'll we'll talk about that but what do [TS]

00:22:53   you what do you listening to so my pick [TS]

00:22:56   I actually had original pick I've had a [TS]

00:22:58   tech related pick but then I was [TS]

00:23:00   persuaded to change my pick for for [TS]

00:23:02   people who might not be audiobook [TS]

00:23:04   listeners yeah there might not be big [TS]

00:23:07   radio guys or whatever my pick is like a [TS]

00:23:10   starter course and why you would ever [TS]

00:23:12   want to listen to audiobooks oh so it [TS]

00:23:16   for people who are familiar with this [TS]

00:23:18   person's work this is kind of boring [TS]

00:23:20   it's like me recommending you should go [TS]

00:23:22   see these movies called Star Wars [TS]

00:23:23   they're great you know but if you [TS]

00:23:24   haven't heard of Star Wars that would be [TS]

00:23:25   good advice so if you're not an NPR [TS]

00:23:28   listener you you may not have ever heard [TS]

00:23:30   of David Sedaris or know who he is and [TS]

00:23:32   if you haven't ever heard of and have no [TS]

00:23:34   idea who he is i envy you because [TS]

00:23:35   learning who david sedaris it is and [TS]

00:23:38   what he's about is a very interesting [TS]

00:23:39   experience and my my pick is one of his [TS]

00:23:42   older books I don't know Phocis first it [TS]

00:23:44   was the first one that I ever listened [TS]

00:23:45   to is called me talk pretty one day yeah [TS]

00:23:47   uh and this is like I don't want to say [TS]

00:23:52   too much about it because you don't know [TS]

00:23:53   anything about David Sedaris you should [TS]

00:23:55   just get this as your free audible book [TS]

00:23:57   and listen to it because this is [TS]

00:23:58   something that he narrates as himself [TS]

00:24:01   right and his books are good if you want [TS]

00:24:03   to read them but listening to them is [TS]

00:24:05   way way different like he's he is a [TS]

00:24:07   radio guy he does his on books on the [TS]

00:24:10   radio and whenever he's in town I go see [TS]

00:24:12   him live this is a case where you want [TS]

00:24:14   the author to read you their book it is [TS]

00:24:17   very very different than reading it [TS]

00:24:18   yourself so I recommend not reading this [TS]

00:24:21   book in a print version you must get the [TS]

00:24:24   audio version of this book even though [TS]

00:24:25   this is an abridge [TS]

00:24:26   version you must get the audio version [TS]

00:24:28   because staggering him hearing him read [TS]

00:24:30   his stuff is way different than reading [TS]

00:24:33   it yourself so never heard of this guy [TS]

00:24:35   just just trust me on this go honk at me [TS]

00:24:38   talk party one day is free audible book [TS]

00:24:40   David Sedaris narrates it and it's a [TS]

00:24:43   bunch of nonfiction stories about his [TS]

00:24:46   life which sounds boring but his life is [TS]

00:24:49   anything but boring just put it in if a [TS]

00:24:53   long car trip is great this you're going [TS]

00:24:54   a long car trip or anywhere and just [TS]

00:24:56   listen and the you will be horrified [TS]

00:25:00   disturbed amazed you will cry you will [TS]

00:25:03   laugh I don't know what you'll do I [TS]

00:25:05   really don't know what to do but if you [TS]

00:25:06   don't know who even if you do know who [TS]

00:25:07   David Sedaris is and you haven't [TS]

00:25:09   listened in a long time it's good to [TS]

00:25:10   just pick that up hates free and listen [TS]

00:25:13   to it again because it's just as funny [TS]

00:25:15   the second time around I love David [TS]

00:25:16   Sedaris and I've listened to almost all [TS]

00:25:19   of his stuff I don't think I've ever [TS]

00:25:21   actually read one of his books I've [TS]

00:25:22   listened to it all in audio form he's [TS]

00:25:25   very interesting character recommended [TS]

00:25:27   all right [TS]

00:25:30   so now Steve Jobs Steve Jobs I don't [TS]

00:25:34   know how how can you be listening to [TS]

00:25:35   this show and not know this it's not [TS]

00:25:38   news anymore it's already happened [TS]

00:25:40   Steve Jobs has uh has retired is [TS]

00:25:44   resigned really resigning CEO he's [TS]

00:25:49   resigned to CEO isn't relieved I mean [TS]

00:25:51   but that is a retirement and he was [TS]

00:25:53   instantly reinstated as chairman right [TS]

00:25:55   of the board or whatever right so it's [TS]

00:25:57   you mentioned and I was like I am or [TS]

00:25:59   something that I hadn't said anything [TS]

00:26:01   about it right which is true like I [TS]

00:26:04   didn't I didn't write anything about it [TS]

00:26:06   I didn't really tweet about it repeated [TS]

00:26:08   some other people's things didn't really [TS]

00:26:09   tweet much about it now back in the [TS]

00:26:13   summer of 2007 I wrote something from [TS]

00:26:16   Mac world called a day without Steve hmm [TS]

00:26:18   which was like a Mac world you're very [TS]

00:26:21   limited at least I'm limited to how long [TS]

00:26:23   right because if you get one page and [TS]

00:26:24   it's not like writing for ours or other [TS]

00:26:26   online thing where or even Mac WorldCom [TS]

00:26:28   where you can go as long as you want to [TS]

00:26:30   go so I tried to fit into this one page [TS]

00:26:33   article a summary of my thoughts about [TS]

00:26:37   you know some day Steve is not going to [TS]

00:26:40   be run [TS]

00:26:40   Apple and what will that be like and and [TS]

00:26:43   again this was 2007 I forget when it was [TS]

00:26:45   in the timeline but this this was me [TS]

00:26:47   trying to square myself with the idea [TS]

00:26:51   that Steve Jobs would not be running [TS]

00:26:53   Apple forever I think maybe this was his [TS]

00:26:55   first medical absence or was that I [TS]

00:26:57   don't even remember but at some point it [TS]

00:26:59   was it was the point in in my life when [TS]

00:27:01   I said you know what I really have to [TS]

00:27:02   start thinking about this and make [TS]

00:27:05   myself okay with it and say yeah and the [TS]

00:27:07   process of making myself okay with it [TS]

00:27:09   was like oh let me just think it through [TS]

00:27:10   and write something out and so I ended [TS]

00:27:14   IND this thing with sort of a summary of [TS]

00:27:18   what I thought the post Jobs Apple would [TS]

00:27:21   be like and I mentioned that you know [TS]

00:27:24   this is a phrase that I don't think I [TS]

00:27:26   made it up I've heard a million places [TS]

00:27:27   before with it the whole idea that if [TS]

00:27:29   the mantra of the Apple company without [TS]

00:27:33   him is the idea of what would Steve do [TS]

00:27:36   right so even though he's not there have [TS]

00:27:39   his philosophy and view everything so as [TS]

00:27:41   long as everybody has that in mind [TS]

00:27:43   they'll be okay and I followed up by [TS]

00:27:46   saying that the thing that Jobs has [TS]

00:27:48   always wanted to do was make the best [TS]

00:27:50   products possible and I have a [TS]

00:27:54   paraphrase of of a Socrates quote here [TS]

00:27:57   is actually it's a 3-way Apple thing [TS]

00:28:00   alright so so original quote from [TS]

00:28:01   Socrates as far as I know [TS]

00:28:02   and then the Mac software company [TS]

00:28:05   ambrosia software do you remember them [TS]

00:28:06   in Turku Vale Maelstrom and all sorts of [TS]

00:28:09   other programs sneza Pro X or something [TS]

00:28:12   I mean yes naps Pro tons of they still [TS]

00:28:14   make some software and they but their [TS]

00:28:16   most famous for their Mac shareware [TS]

00:28:18   games back in the day and that this was [TS]

00:28:19   the motto of their company this Socrates [TS]

00:28:22   quote word for worse and I have modified [TS]

00:28:23   adhere in this article and the quote is [TS]

00:28:27   virtue does not come from market share [TS]

00:28:29   rather from market share rather from [TS]

00:28:32   virtue comes market share and all other [TS]

00:28:34   good things yes I managed to mangle the [TS]

00:28:35   quote the idea is that you don't go [TS]

00:28:39   after the thing that's your goal we want [TS]

00:28:42   to be the biggest company in the world [TS]

00:28:43   we want to you know have a strategy that [TS]

00:28:45   makes us the most successful maker of [TS]

00:28:47   gadgets or whatever instead you do the [TS]

00:28:50   virtuous thing and from the virtuous [TS]

00:28:52   thing comes all the other [TS]

00:28:53   goals that you wanted so the idea is [TS]

00:28:55   make the best product and if you make [TS]

00:28:57   the best product you will become the [TS]

00:28:59   biggest company in the world the most [TS]

00:29:00   successful company the most profitable [TS]

00:29:02   company you will dominate your industry [TS]

00:29:04   you'll sell more your thing than the [TS]

00:29:05   other guy you'll you'll have a better [TS]

00:29:06   brand recognition all the good things [TS]

00:29:08   that a company wants that a CEO is in [TS]

00:29:09   charge of your share price will go up [TS]

00:29:11   all that stuff if you try to do that [TS]

00:29:12   stuff I want to try to make the most [TS]

00:29:15   profit I want to try to sell the most [TS]

00:29:17   widgets I want to have the highest share [TS]

00:29:18   price you will fail don't try to you [TS]

00:29:23   know instead aim for the virtuous thing [TS]

00:29:25   which is making the best product and if [TS]

00:29:26   you look at what Steve has done over his [TS]

00:29:28   entire career that's always what he's [TS]

00:29:31   concentrated on he's not been chasing [TS]

00:29:34   the ancillary rewards he's not been [TS]

00:29:36   chasing profits or market share or stock [TS]

00:29:40   price he's gotten those things by [TS]

00:29:42   chasing the one thing that he actually [TS]

00:29:43   cares about is making great stuff and [TS]

00:29:45   this sounds like a stupid trite flat [TS]

00:29:48   level of course you're going to make the [TS]

00:29:49   best product Lee everybody knows that [TS]

00:29:50   right but if you look at what other [TS]

00:29:51   companies do and I would imagine if you [TS]

00:29:53   were in their boardrooms listening to [TS]

00:29:55   their discussions they're not talking [TS]

00:29:56   about how do we make the best product [TS]

00:29:58   they're talking about how do we succeed [TS]

00:29:59   in the market how do we defeat our [TS]

00:30:01   competitor so on and that strategy can [TS]

00:30:02   work like Microsoft is built on that [TS]

00:30:04   strategy certainly you can't say [TS]

00:30:05   Microsoft strategy was let's always make [TS]

00:30:07   the best product it was let's crush our [TS]

00:30:09   competitors what kind of you know [TS]

00:30:11   innovative business model or strategy [TS]

00:30:13   can be used to become the dominant [TS]

00:30:15   player in the PC space and it worked for [TS]

00:30:16   them and they won right so it's not to [TS]

00:30:18   say other strategies can't work but this [TS]

00:30:20   has not been what Apple has done Apple [TS]

00:30:22   has always said we are going to make the [TS]

00:30:24   best product and sometimes that [TS]

00:30:25   strategy's not worked for them like they [TS]

00:30:27   had the best product with the Mac way [TS]

00:30:29   back when they didn't do enough of the [TS]

00:30:31   other things like it wasn't enough they [TS]

00:30:33   had too many demerits against them on [TS]

00:30:34   top of then you know Steve Jobs was [TS]

00:30:36   kicked out 1985 so you can't really [TS]

00:30:38   blame him for all those dark years when [TS]

00:30:40   Apple wasn't concentrating on that all [TS]

00:30:42   right so oh and then I finished up the [TS]

00:30:47   thing is saying Steve Jobs obviously [TS]

00:30:49   will never be equalled by any other [TS]

00:30:50   single person but he could be actually [TS]

00:30:52   be bettered by an entire tire [TS]

00:30:54   organization that stays true to those [TS]

00:30:55   ideals I'm gonna get to the bettering [TS]

00:30:59   part in a little bit so so I felt like I [TS]

00:31:02   had put that to bed within myself as far [TS]

00:31:06   as [TS]

00:31:07   him leaving goes and I was not four [TS]

00:31:10   years ago now did we just jump back did [TS]

00:31:13   you did you anticipate that this would [TS]

00:31:15   that the the timing of this were you [TS]

00:31:18   expecting this was just like oh this is [TS]

00:31:19   going to happen any day kind of thing or [TS]

00:31:21   I thought he would be gone sooner really [TS]

00:31:23   that's why I wrote this in 2007 I was [TS]

00:31:25   afraid with the lead time of the print [TS]

00:31:26   magazine that I would be too late like [TS]

00:31:27   that this would go in and he would [TS]

00:31:28   already be gone by the time the went up [TS]

00:31:30   I was like I have to meet it was I [TS]

00:31:32   thought you know how long could he [TS]

00:31:33   possibly stay in this right you know but [TS]

00:31:36   the different out like none of us know [TS]

00:31:37   any details of the health situation I [TS]

00:31:39   don't really care about the details I [TS]

00:31:41   don't think it's anybody's business but [TS]

00:31:42   that also means that I you know I had [TS]

00:31:45   uncertainty I didn't know it could be [TS]

00:31:46   any day now right but I thought I was [TS]

00:31:48   just like you know I put it to bed I'm [TS]

00:31:50   like well when he eventually does leave [TS]

00:31:51   I feel like I don't need to write [TS]

00:31:53   anything else because I already [TS]

00:31:54   addressed this many years ago I said [TS]

00:31:56   what I had to say and that's it but when [TS]

00:31:57   he actually left I felt I found out that [TS]

00:31:59   I wasn't as prepared as I thought [TS]

00:32:01   because it wasn't like oh yeah I saw [TS]

00:32:02   this coming it's no big deal I didn't [TS]

00:32:04   feel that way at all I felt like this is [TS]

00:32:06   a big deal and despite all my [TS]

00:32:07   preparations that I was still kind of [TS]

00:32:09   you know I was sad I was disappointed I [TS]

00:32:11   was kind of a drift out to see it and [TS]

00:32:14   didn't really know what to think I wrote [TS]

00:32:15   down some notes and like maybe I will [TS]

00:32:16   write something about it I wrote down a [TS]

00:32:17   lot of notes about the issue and I was [TS]

00:32:20   like well this sound what I am what I [TS]

00:32:23   have these notes on sounds more like a [TS]

00:32:24   eulogy but he's not he's not dead he's [TS]

00:32:26   just left the company right and and I [TS]

00:32:29   was thinking about why that was the case [TS]

00:32:30   and that was another point I jotted down [TS]

00:32:32   and then Daniel John could made the [TS]

00:32:35   exact point on Twitter like the reason [TS]

00:32:39   everybody's acting like Steve Jobs died [TS]

00:32:40   is because the aspect of him we get [TS]

00:32:42   access to his public leadership role is [TS]

00:32:44   gone [TS]

00:32:45   and that none of us are friends with [TS]

00:32:48   Steve Jobs so when he leaves his role as [TS]

00:32:52   CEO of Apple it's like he's gone for us [TS]

00:32:54   because we don't know the other part yes [TS]

00:32:55   he continues to live on and have a [TS]

00:32:57   family and a life and friends and stuff [TS]

00:32:59   like that and he continues to be [TS]

00:33:00   chairman of the board I guess but how [TS]

00:33:02   much how much do we have any interaction [TS]

00:33:04   with any of the people on Apple's board [TS]

00:33:05   we don't see them know about them hear [TS]

00:33:07   anything about them really so once Steve [TS]

00:33:10   Jobs leaves a CEO it's like he's gone [TS]

00:33:12   for us not dead but like he's gone for [TS]

00:33:14   us which is why when I was making notes [TS]

00:33:16   about what my feelings are about him [TS]

00:33:19   leaving it was like a eulogy because [TS]

00:33:21   Steve Jobs that I know the Steve Jobs [TS]

00:33:23   than any of us know the guy whose CEO of [TS]

00:33:25   Apple has gone right so he might did not [TS]

00:33:28   think he might as well be dead but he we [TS]

00:33:29   don't we don't see him here we don't get [TS]

00:33:30   to hear him talk we don't get to hear [TS]

00:33:31   what he has to say he's not in direct [TS]

00:33:34   leadership and control of the company [TS]

00:33:35   although that was you know been true for [TS]

00:33:37   a while since he's been a medical leave [TS]

00:33:38   ring so that's why I feels like he's [TS]

00:33:40   gone uh and I was that my future notes [TS]

00:33:45   were about like so what was his role [TS]

00:33:48   when he was there I know you mentioned [TS]

00:33:49   on preview shows like would you consider [TS]

00:33:51   this to errors in the company's [TS]

00:33:53   histories and I Gruber said yes of [TS]

00:33:54   course and I agree in it there's [TS]

00:33:55   actually a phrase but that I don't know [TS]

00:33:58   who invented this phrase but it just [TS]

00:33:59   seems to come out of the ether when Jobs [TS]

00:34:01   returned in 97 or whatever and I saw it [TS]

00:34:04   I've seen it everywhere and I've always [TS]

00:34:05   used it and I don't know who invented it [TS]

00:34:07   but it's the jobs two ERA jobs Roman [TS]

00:34:09   numeral two you know to capitalize error [TS]

00:34:11   in the jobs to error of Apple you know [TS]

00:34:13   since the jobs to era you seen it in [TS]

00:34:15   stories for years and years and years [TS]

00:34:17   and it's just the natural thing that [TS]

00:34:18   like he had the first error of jobs that [TS]

00:34:21   aptly found with the company with his [TS]

00:34:22   friend Steve Wozniak and blah blah blah [TS]

00:34:24   made the personal computers became rich [TS]

00:34:25   blah blah but then this is the jobs to [TS]

00:34:27   error alright so this is the end of the [TS]

00:34:29   jobs to era alright and trying to think [TS]

00:34:33   about what is what is the legacy of the [TS]

00:34:35   jobs to error how's it different the [TS]

00:34:36   jobs when I may still write this I don't [TS]

00:34:38   know I didn't I didn't write it because [TS]

00:34:39   like I said it felt like a eulogy [TS]

00:34:41   so eventually some day when he does pass [TS]

00:34:44   on maybe I will write this up and put it [TS]

00:34:48   down but for now I'm trying to mostly [TS]

00:34:49   just think about is what he did in his [TS]

00:34:51   job as CEO and that's what other people [TS]

00:34:53   been talking about on your other shows [TS]

00:34:55   with mark on group I like what is it [TS]

00:34:57   that he brought to the company during [TS]

00:34:58   this second phase of his career and what [TS]

00:35:01   does it mean that he's gone and [TS]

00:35:02   someone's over with it and after [TS]

00:35:03   listening to all those shows and [TS]

00:35:04   thinking about it myself [TS]

00:35:05   I think the key difficulty I have in [TS]

00:35:07   talking about this topic is that we [TS]

00:35:09   don't know what jobs did so Gruber link [TS]

00:35:12   this article the title was ideas not [TS]

00:35:15   hierarchy on Steve Jobs supposedly [TS]

00:35:17   making all Apple decisions and it's at [TS]

00:35:19   the small wave calm by Tim Tom Reiss [TS]

00:35:24   teaming and he talks about the notion [TS]

00:35:29   that you know that Steve Jobs is the [TS]

00:35:31   personification of the company and that [TS]

00:35:33   everything Apple does [TS]

00:35:35   because of him so we're all familiar [TS]

00:35:36   with this phenomenon I've Apple does [TS]

00:35:38   anything it's shorthand instead of [TS]

00:35:40   saying that Apple did XY and Z we say oh [TS]

00:35:43   well Steve job wants X so Steve Jobs [TS]

00:35:44   once this and the reason that's like [TS]

00:35:47   that is because that's what Steve Jobs [TS]

00:35:48   wants like that he somehow makes every [TS]

00:35:50   single decision and does every single [TS]

00:35:52   thing the company does and it's just a [TS]

00:35:53   shorthand way of expressing the idea [TS]

00:35:56   that he's a dominant personality and at [TS]

00:35:59   the company and he's more hands-on than [TS]

00:36:02   most other CEOs are he's he's willing to [TS]

00:36:04   be involved in the details but there's [TS]

00:36:07   no way that one person does all this [TS]

00:36:09   stuff right so in this article there was [TS]

00:36:12   an excerpt from the the d8 conference [TS]

00:36:14   which I don't remember what year was [TS]

00:36:15   with a couple years ago where they were [TS]

00:36:16   interviewing Steve Jobs onstage and the [TS]

00:36:18   person asked him what do you do all day [TS]

00:36:20   Steve and what he said was basically the [TS]

00:36:22   team meets with teams of people and [TS]

00:36:23   works on ideas and solves problems makes [TS]

00:36:25   products blah blah blah like he just [TS]

00:36:26   gave a vague answer and this was [TS]

00:36:29   Mossberg interviewing them he says what [TS]

00:36:30   are people willing to tell you that [TS]

00:36:31   you're wrong yes and job says yeah and [TS]

00:36:34   he says it must progress do you win all [TS]

00:36:38   of your arguments with your employees [TS]

00:36:39   and he said no of course not you can't [TS]

00:36:40   win all your arguments with your [TS]

00:36:41   employees because you're not going to [TS]

00:36:43   get great employees at your company if [TS]

00:36:45   every time they come up with an idea [TS]

00:36:46   that you disagree with you override them [TS]

00:36:48   because you're the boss right so the [TS]

00:36:50   idea is that you know he's basically [TS]

00:36:52   saying that they come to me with ideas [TS]

00:36:54   and yes I'm sure he says that's good [TS]

00:36:56   that's bad or whatever but when he has [TS]

00:36:58   arguments with them which apparently [TS]

00:36:59   happens all the time like his [TS]

00:37:01   subordinate will say I think we should [TS]

00:37:02   do XY and Z and Steve will say I think [TS]

00:37:04   we should do P Q&R he doesn't just pull [TS]

00:37:06   rank and say well I'm Steve Jobs and I [TS]

00:37:08   get to do it they have arguments and [TS]

00:37:09   sometimes he loses and he has to because [TS]

00:37:12   if you were some super smart designer or [TS]

00:37:15   something or you know Johnny I've or [TS]

00:37:16   anybody you know Tim Cook or you know [TS]

00:37:19   Phil Schiller and every time you came up [TS]

00:37:21   with an idea and your boss disagreed [TS]

00:37:22   your boss just said well I'm the boss [TS]

00:37:23   and we get to do it that way you would [TS]

00:37:25   be disheartened you wouldn't want to [TS]

00:37:27   stay at this company like you can't have [TS]

00:37:28   smart people is the direct quote from [TS]

00:37:32   from Steve Jobs he says the Mossberg s [TS]

00:37:35   did you win all the arguments he says no [TS]

00:37:37   you see you can't if you want to hire [TS]

00:37:39   great people and have them stay working [TS]

00:37:40   for you you have to let them make a lot [TS]

00:37:41   of decisions and you have to be it mmm [TS]

00:37:44   he's the stutters here [TS]

00:37:46   and you have to be run by ideas not [TS]

00:37:48   hierarchy the best ideas have to win [TS]

00:37:50   otherwise good people don't stay hmm and [TS]

00:37:52   the best idea is he's saying and are not [TS]

00:37:54   necessarily my ideas right now so this [TS]

00:37:58   is Steve Jobs himself saying every one [TS]

00:38:00   of these ideas was not my idea and they [TS]

00:38:03   can't be so that's just not how you run [TS]

00:38:05   a company so they think the smell [TS]

00:38:06   dispelling this myth that he does [TS]

00:38:07   everything now we can kind of know what [TS]

00:38:11   he did in general like we can say he [TS]

00:38:13   came back to the company and broad [TS]

00:38:15   strokes what happened [TS]

00:38:16   well broad strokes the first thing that [TS]

00:38:18   happened was that he said we need fewer [TS]

00:38:20   products so he killed a bunch of stuff [TS]

00:38:21   he got rid of the the clones got rid of [TS]

00:38:23   the Newton cut their product line down [TS]

00:38:25   to the level four before a grid or so [TS]

00:38:27   and so forth now does that mean it was [TS]

00:38:29   his idea to do every single one of the [TS]

00:38:30   things no not necessarily but it's clear [TS]

00:38:32   that as soon as he came in what his team [TS]

00:38:36   did was simplify the product line and [TS]

00:38:38   since the CEO was in charge it's not the [TS]

00:38:40   type of move where you know a [TS]

00:38:42   subordinate said I think we should sell [TS]

00:38:44   pizzas and Steve Jobs said well I [TS]

00:38:46   disagree but you're the subordinate [TS]

00:38:47   you're real smart so I guess we should [TS]

00:38:48   make pizzas these are company changing [TS]

00:38:51   decisions to cancel the Newton to kill [TS]

00:38:53   cloning to cut half your products are [TS]

00:38:55   more than happier products down to this [TS]

00:38:57   very simplified thing these are big big [TS]

00:38:59   moves that have to have the approval of [TS]

00:39:01   the guy in charge so you can put that on [TS]

00:39:02   Steve Jobs and say yeah he did this he [TS]

00:39:04   decided this is the path back to this [TS]

00:39:06   company first get rid of all this crap [TS]

00:39:07   concentrate on these few things he's the [TS]

00:39:10   one who you know we don't know who came [TS]

00:39:12   with the idea of an iMac or anything [TS]

00:39:13   like that but he's the one who said [TS]

00:39:14   that's the thing that we're going to go [TS]

00:39:15   with we're going to cut everything out [TS]

00:39:16   out you guys work on the iMac we're [TS]

00:39:18   going to do that I'm going to work very [TS]

00:39:19   closely with you on the iMac we're gonna [TS]

00:39:21   work together on and that's going to be [TS]

00:39:22   our first big you know comeback thing so [TS]

00:39:25   you can put big broad decisions like [TS]

00:39:27   that on top of job like the idea is like [TS]

00:39:29   should we make a phone yes No ah does [TS]

00:39:31   that mean Steve Jobs came up with the [TS]

00:39:33   idea of the iPhone thought we should [TS]

00:39:34   make a phone camel design no but in the [TS]

00:39:36   end of the day someone came up with the [TS]

00:39:39   idea to make a bone he's the one who [TS]

00:39:40   gave it the thumbs up or thumbs down so [TS]

00:39:42   it's easy to put the big decisions on [TS]

00:39:44   him but the thing about the thing about [TS]

00:39:48   the jobs to air is that say if you don't [TS]

00:39:51   like Apple or your anti Apple or anti [TS]

00:39:54   Jobs or whatever you're inclined to [TS]

00:39:55   believe that Steve Jobs was the one [TS]

00:39:57   stopping whatever it is that you want [TS]

00:40:00   that you didn't get in the job store so [TS]

00:40:02   if you don't like the App Store Policies [TS]

00:40:04   feel like oh it's because Steve Jobs did [TS]

00:40:05   we have these things I don't like if you [TS]

00:40:06   wanted an X Mac like well the reason we [TS]

00:40:08   didn't have an X Mac which we talked [TS]

00:40:10   about in past shows to say you know [TS]

00:40:11   configurable Mac that has only exactly [TS]

00:40:12   what you want and nothing else and is [TS]

00:40:14   you know cheap enough that you can [TS]

00:40:16   afford it and so on and so forth the [TS]

00:40:18   reason we don't have that is cuz Steve [TS]

00:40:19   Jobs doesn't want write or a licensing [TS]

00:40:22   Mac os10 for generic PC hardware it's [TS]

00:40:24   like oh we would have that except if it [TS]

00:40:25   wasn't for Steve Jobs like whatever your [TS]

00:40:26   thing is that you didn't get in the jobs [TS]

00:40:29   - error and you don't like Apple you're [TS]

00:40:31   gonna say oh it's because of Steve Jobs [TS]

00:40:32   that we didn't get those things right [TS]

00:40:34   and on the other side of the coin if you [TS]

00:40:36   like Apple products and quality and all [TS]

00:40:37   that stuff you assume that things can [TS]

00:40:40   only get worse without him there because [TS]

00:40:42   all the things that you like you say [TS]

00:40:43   well the reason we had the thing I [TS]

00:40:45   really like was because of Steve Jobs a [TS]

00:40:46   Mac os10 look really cool that's just [TS]

00:40:48   because of Steve Jobs like on the [TS]

00:40:49   MacBook Air is awesome and we wouldn't [TS]

00:40:50   have that without Steve Jobs the iPhone [TS]

00:40:52   is awesome and the iPod is awesome and [TS]

00:40:53   if it wasn't a Steve Jobs we wouldn't [TS]

00:40:54   have those so there's a tendency for [TS]

00:40:56   both sides of the Pro and anti Apple [TS]

00:40:59   camp so just assign two jobs all the the [TS]

00:41:03   things that they liked or didn't like [TS]

00:41:04   and that can't all possibly be true like [TS]

00:41:06   all those things that the people didn't [TS]

00:41:08   get they sell it's because of Steve Jobs [TS]

00:41:10   you don't get that you don't know that [TS]

00:41:11   that's that's why we didn't get a thing [TS]

00:41:13   like only thing you can say is that [TS]

00:41:15   probably that Steve Jobs eventually gave [TS]

00:41:18   it the okay that you know like there's [TS]

00:41:20   no that the App Store Policies whoever [TS]

00:41:22   came up with the idea of the App Store [TS]

00:41:23   Policies maybe it was Steve maybe it [TS]

00:41:24   wasn't but he gave it the thumbs up like [TS]

00:41:26   right side you know okay we're going to [TS]

00:41:28   go with that strategy and we're gonna [TS]

00:41:29   stick to it because clearly apples had [TS]

00:41:30   spoken with one voice on the App Store [TS]

00:41:32   and you know they modified it a little [TS]

00:41:34   bit or whatever but it's clear that he [TS]

00:41:36   agreed to that but doesn't mean he came [TS]

00:41:37   up with it or that even he was the [TS]

00:41:38   biggest proponent from it for all you [TS]

00:41:39   know he leaves and he was actually the [TS]

00:41:42   one at every meeting saying you know [TS]

00:41:43   these App Store policy should we could [TS]

00:41:44   reconsider these and one of his [TS]

00:41:45   subordinates was saying no no we got to [TS]

00:41:47   stick with this and he was eventually [TS]

00:41:49   convinced by a smart subordinate for all [TS]

00:41:51   you know for example Scott Forstall [TS]

00:41:53   or Tim Cook were the biggest proponents [TS]

00:41:55   of the close app store wasn't Steve Jobs [TS]

00:41:57   it was keeping you from having whatever [TS]

00:41:58   it is that you wanted it was one of his [TS]

00:41:59   the other people who works for him and [TS]

00:42:01   he was just convinced by them that it [TS]

00:42:03   was the right thing to do [TS]

00:42:05   this is why it's so difficult to figure [TS]

00:42:07   out what is post jobs Apple going to be [TS]

00:42:10   like because you can't know which one of [TS]

00:42:13   these things [TS]

00:42:14   was primarily motivated by him or which [TS]

00:42:17   one of these things like he was actually [TS]

00:42:18   an opposition to because Apple speaks [TS]

00:42:20   with one voice under under Steve Jobs in [TS]

00:42:22   the jobs to air it speaks with one voice [TS]

00:42:24   but that doesn't mean that in all of the [TS]

00:42:26   debates that one voice was Steve Jobs [TS]

00:42:28   idea or that he was the most [TS]

00:42:30   enthusiastic for it and you don't need [TS]

00:42:32   you don't need to look any further than [TS]

00:42:33   like you know Steve Jobs flops that [TS]

00:42:35   people have been talking about like it's [TS]

00:42:36   clear the Steve Jobs love the g4 cube [TS]

00:42:38   whether it was his idea or not right he [TS]

00:42:40   when he was up there on stage he was [TS]

00:42:42   enthusiastic about this brought he [TS]

00:42:43   thought it was awesome now let me just [TS]

00:42:45   jump back a sec here John do you do you [TS]

00:42:47   anticipate that that one voice is going [TS]

00:42:50   to change do you think we might have the [TS]

00:42:52   voice of Schiller and the voice of cook [TS]

00:42:54   or do you think do you think they'll [TS]

00:42:56   somehow or will we sort of lose it's [TS]

00:43:00   interesting it I just want to touch on [TS]

00:43:02   this point for a second because if you [TS]

00:43:03   if you think about that whether it's a [TS]

00:43:05   press release or what sometimes it feels [TS]

00:43:08   like there is the voice of Apple that we [TS]

00:43:10   hear through the press release then we [TS]

00:43:12   think of Apple embodied it is Steve Jobs [TS]

00:43:15   and then we have other people who can [TS]

00:43:19   speak on Apple's behalf whether it's the [TS]

00:43:20   PR or whatever do you think that's going [TS]

00:43:23   to change is that going to splinter are [TS]

00:43:25   we going to have not different people [TS]

00:43:26   saying different things but a few [TS]

00:43:29   different people to think about from [TS]

00:43:31   from Steve you know from Steve Jobs now [TS]

00:43:34   it's passed down to these two or three [TS]

00:43:37   or four or five people or well we have [TS]

00:43:39   more of the faceless Apple just the [TS]

00:43:40   generic Apple PR you know because you [TS]

00:43:43   can't you can't just go and replace [TS]

00:43:45   Steve Jobs and say oh this is our new [TS]

00:43:46   CEO therefore this is going to be the [TS]

00:43:48   new or can you well yeah that was kind [TS]

00:43:51   of getting out with the flops like or [TS]

00:43:52   the hockey puck mouse another thing [TS]

00:43:53   which jobs seems to be enthusiastic [TS]

00:43:55   about right those are the with the flops [TS]

00:43:57   you can kind of start to pinpoint like [TS]

00:44:00   all right so when we saw this guy on [TS]

00:44:03   stage we were all convinced by his [TS]

00:44:05   enthusiasm for these things right and [TS]

00:44:07   when they didn't succeed in the [TS]

00:44:09   marketplace or the mark you know the [TS]

00:44:10   hockey puck Mouse like they eventually [TS]

00:44:12   changed it to an oblong one the g4 cube [TS]

00:44:14   got canned that's an example where again [TS]

00:44:18   we're still just speculating but we're [TS]

00:44:20   going to say Steve Jobs wanted this [TS]

00:44:21   probably someone at Apple was like you [TS]

00:44:24   can't make the mouse around dude people [TS]

00:44:25   can't tell which way is up and he's like [TS]

00:44:26   now trust me people will love it [TS]

00:44:28   and he stuck with as long as you could [TS]

00:44:29   but eventually when they made the next [TS]

00:44:30   Mouse someone said Steve come on we did [TS]

00:44:32   this round thing nobody likes it we put [TS]

00:44:33   a little dent in the front of the mouse [TS]

00:44:34   so people could tell that didn't help [TS]

00:44:35   can we change it and Steve Jobs said [TS]

00:44:37   yeah okay you can change then the g4q [TS]

00:44:38   but wasn't selling the numbers guys said [TS]

00:44:40   I know you love this computer Steve but [TS]

00:44:42   the consumers don't and as great as you [TS]

00:44:44   think it is they're just not ready for [TS]

00:44:45   it they don't want it we have to can it [TS]

00:44:47   right and so they backslide on that [TS]

00:44:49   right now that doesn't mean they're not [TS]

00:44:51   speaking with one voice but it does mean [TS]

00:44:53   that that one voice that Apple had [TS]

00:44:57   wasn't necessarily right now the fear [TS]

00:44:59   that you were talking about I think this [TS]

00:45:00   is a legitimate fear is that regardless [TS]

00:45:03   of which way Steve individually was on [TS]

00:45:05   any of these things they care about we [TS]

00:45:06   see the most Pro was he's the most [TS]

00:45:07   against was you know oh what what [TS]

00:45:10   happened who was the one really behind [TS]

00:45:13   this despite the fact that Jobs is the [TS]

00:45:14   one out of the state she was the one [TS]

00:45:15   really behind it legitimate fear is that [TS]

00:45:17   nobody else at the company will have the [TS]

00:45:20   unassailable political capital within [TS]

00:45:22   Apple that Steve had like at the end of [TS]

00:45:26   the day when it came time to make some [TS]

00:45:28   hard decisions he could always say all [TS]

00:45:30   right I've heard all the arguments I've [TS]

00:45:31   gone one way the other and I'm gonna go [TS]

00:45:33   with campaig or can't beat whether [TS]

00:45:34   that's camp a is his idea or not his [TS]

00:45:37   idea he can make the decision and when [TS]

00:45:39   he makes that decision dissents within [TS]

00:45:42   the company [TS]

00:45:44   like isn't there's not isn't that it's [TS]

00:45:46   not making people angry like there's not [TS]

00:45:49   some disgruntled section of the company [TS]

00:45:50   like oh I really like he's got such [TS]

00:45:52   political capital there that's like [TS]

00:45:54   that's what Steve wants to do like Steve [TS]

00:45:55   came down decision you know it doesn't [TS]

00:45:57   mean that that's his thing like maybe [TS]

00:45:59   say Forrestal is arguing for one thing [TS]

00:46:00   and you know Bertrand was arguing for [TS]

00:46:04   something else and he picks Forrestal [TS]

00:46:05   right or whoever you know when he makes [TS]

00:46:09   that decision that's it because he has [TS]

00:46:12   that kind of political capital on Apple [TS]

00:46:14   he's he's he's Steve Jobs right the fear [TS]

00:46:16   is now that even though Tim Cook is in [TS]

00:46:18   charge when Tim Cook makes that same [TS]

00:46:20   call that the people who didn't get [TS]

00:46:23   picked feel a little bit more grumbling [TS]

00:46:24   like that he doesn't have he has [TS]

00:46:27   tremendous political capital people [TS]

00:46:28   trust him and I think he's great and [TS]

00:46:29   everything but he's not Steve Jobs and [TS]

00:46:31   that that little tiny thing will make it [TS]

00:46:36   so that perhaps Apple doesn't speak as [TS]

00:46:38   well with one voice on the long haul [TS]

00:46:40   time I think yes they will continue to [TS]

00:46:41   speak clearly one voice and probably you [TS]

00:46:44   know going forward for many many years [TS]

00:46:45   but if you don't have that guy who [TS]

00:46:47   everyone believes in even when they rule [TS]

00:46:49   against you even steve job ruled against [TS]

00:46:51   you you still can like get yourself [TS]

00:46:53   right with it and continue to work hard [TS]

00:46:55   for what Steve wants right and the [TS]

00:46:58   reasons TV news by the way game by two [TS]

00:46:59   the hockey puck interview for Cuba is [TS]

00:47:00   that when he was wrong or when he [TS]

00:47:02   appears that the thing that he wanted [TS]

00:47:03   turned out he wrong he's not like he [TS]

00:47:04   stuck with it forever something he kept [TS]

00:47:05   the g4 cube around and kept trying to [TS]

00:47:07   sell him oh nobody wanted them he's like [TS]

00:47:09   I guess that you know he's willing to [TS]

00:47:10   admit that he's wrong and backslide and [TS]

00:47:13   and you know changing his back so they [TS]

00:47:16   didn't feel like he was an unfair [TS]

00:47:17   dictator but they just just all believed [TS]

00:47:19   in him so much now think about some of [TS]

00:47:22   these other issues that have been inside [TS]

00:47:25   Apple I guarantee every single one of [TS]

00:47:26   these had opposing camps within Apple [TS]

00:47:28   like even though we see one voice [TS]

00:47:29   externally internally not the same cell [TS]

00:47:31   cloning or no cloning guaranteed they [TS]

00:47:33   like the company was probably split [TS]

00:47:34   50/50 pro or against cloning yeah you [TS]

00:47:37   know it's stupid cancel the Newton or [TS]

00:47:38   keep it - but the Newton team didn't [TS]

00:47:40   want you to cancel and if it's a lot of [TS]

00:47:41   people at Apple who really liked the [TS]

00:47:43   Newton you know and didn't want to see [TS]

00:47:45   it go away the big one that I can think [TS]

00:47:48   of in recent memory is Linux on the [TS]

00:47:50   iPhone or Mac OS 10 derivative and this [TS]

00:47:52   was a real debate with an Apple like [TS]

00:47:54   we're gonna make a phone or portable [TS]

00:47:56   thing like when they did the iPod they [TS]

00:47:58   did that what is it called picks picks [TS]

00:48:00   Oh pixie picks something with you they [TS]

00:48:01   outsource the OS for the original little [TS]

00:48:03   you know five gigabyte scrollwheel ipod [TS]

00:48:07   gen one thing like they didn't make the [TS]

00:48:08   OS word so when it came time to make a [TS]

00:48:10   phone there was a legitimate debate [TS]

00:48:11   within the company do we do we run Linux [TS]

00:48:14   or some embedded OS on this phone or do [TS]

00:48:16   we try to put Mac OS 10 on it and I [TS]

00:48:18   think Forrestal was the Big Mac OS 10 [TS]

00:48:20   guy which is why he's in in charge of [TS]

00:48:22   iOS now but there are two camps like [TS]

00:48:24   some some people saying we can't fit Mac [TS]

00:48:27   OS 10 of the phones ridiculous it thing [TS]

00:48:28   takes you know umpteen megabytes of [TS]

00:48:31   memory it takes this much CPU we see how [TS]

00:48:33   slow it is on Macs you want to put this [TS]

00:48:35   on a phone that's crazy we got to go [TS]

00:48:36   with Linux everybody's doing embedded [TS]

00:48:38   Linux and the other camp was saying no [TS]

00:48:39   no you don't understand we're building a [TS]

00:48:41   platform we need to own it we need to [TS]

00:48:43   use Mac OS 10 we all know how that [TS]

00:48:44   turned out you know that on the phone is [TS]

00:48:46   iOS which is the derivative of Mac OS 10 [TS]

00:48:47   but there was a legitimate debate with [TS]

00:48:49   an apple whether that should be done and [TS]

00:48:52   someone has to make the call on that [TS]

00:48:54   and the people who really wanted Linux [TS]

00:48:56   on the phone perhaps you know were [TS]

00:49:00   annoyed that the decision came down that [TS]

00:49:01   we're gonna go with Mac was sound like [TS]

00:49:02   who knows we've made that decision I can [TS]

00:49:04   imagine that decision was made even [TS]

00:49:05   before I got to level Steve Jobs that [TS]

00:49:06   you know whoever was in charge of that [TS]

00:49:08   thing maybe was Bertrand who was in [TS]

00:49:09   charge then said no we gotta go with Mac [TS]

00:49:10   os10 [TS]

00:49:11   and it just got presented to Steve as [TS]

00:49:12   this was were doing Steve said it's okay [TS]

00:49:14   maybe he doesn't you know you never know [TS]

00:49:16   what what part he had in that debate [TS]

00:49:18   right so now in the future without him [TS]

00:49:21   say he wasn't there when the iPad was [TS]

00:49:23   made and I guarantee there's some people [TS]

00:49:26   inside out but we're like we should put [TS]

00:49:27   a USB port on the iPad and there were [TS]

00:49:30   some people said no we can't put a USB [TS]

00:49:31   port in the iPad and this is the type of [TS]

00:49:33   decision where from what we all know of [TS]

00:49:35   Steve Jobs personality like he had to be [TS]

00:49:37   the anti USB port guy because he's [TS]

00:49:39   always trying to remove stuff he's [TS]

00:49:40   trying to take away things and again [TS]

00:49:42   we're personifying apples like remember [TS]

00:49:43   when they removed the floppy jaw but I [TS]

00:49:44   but that was Steve is he like [TS]

00:49:46   simplification I remember when that you [TS]

00:49:48   know if it's the cube that he seemed to [TS]

00:49:49   love it had lots of stuff removed from [TS]

00:49:50   what I bet that was Steve that's [TS]

00:49:51   probably a safe bet right uh and when [TS]

00:49:54   the decision came down no USB port right [TS]

00:49:56   so say the iPad didn't sell like [TS]

00:49:59   gangbusters like say it started up more [TS]

00:50:00   like the iPod because when the iPod [TS]

00:50:02   first sold it wasn't just a smash it [TS]

00:50:04   like the iPad was it was a slow slow [TS]

00:50:05   burn that built up to this big critical [TS]

00:50:07   mass so say the iPad was like that [TS]

00:50:09   if that happens post Steve Jobs and then [TS]

00:50:11   the anti the pro USB port camp says see [TS]

00:50:14   this thing we put out there like it's [TS]

00:50:16   not selling that well it's probably [TS]

00:50:17   biggest doesn't have a USB port which is [TS]

00:50:19   what everyone in the press has been [TS]

00:50:20   complaining about hey no USB port [TS]

00:50:22   without Steve Jobs there to like to have [TS]

00:50:25   his mojo behind the no USB port decision [TS]

00:50:28   even if it wasn't his decision like does [TS]

00:50:31   the pro USB port camp become emboldened [TS]

00:50:33   by his absence to petition harder for it [TS]

00:50:37   to appear because the iPad isn't selling [TS]

00:50:39   well or something like that's the that's [TS]

00:50:42   the little thin edge of the wedge that [TS]

00:50:44   could happen in the jobless future where [TS]

00:50:47   things that just wouldn't have flown in [TS]

00:50:49   the past that people wouldn't have even [TS]

00:50:50   considered bringing that up again [TS]

00:50:51   because the decision had been made and [TS]

00:50:52   it's clear that that's what Steve wanted [TS]

00:50:54   and you know regardless of whose [TS]

00:50:56   decision it was don't don't bring it up [TS]

00:50:57   again that debate is settled we just [TS]

00:50:59   gotta let it you know let it ride out [TS]

00:51:00   that those guys come back and start you [TS]

00:51:03   know saying well you know maybe we [TS]

00:51:05   should rehab us have that debate again [TS]

00:51:06   maybe we were wrong about [TS]

00:51:07   USB port and maybe it'll you know and [TS]

00:51:10   maybe the guy in charge like Tim Cook [TS]

00:51:12   says um you know maybe they're right [TS]

00:51:13   maybe we should try it with the USB port [TS]

00:51:15   that's the danger of like not speaking [TS]

00:51:17   with one voice not having the guts to [TS]

00:51:20   stick with your decision when it's [TS]

00:51:22   uncertain that coming back to the [TS]

00:51:24   touchpad thing with HP is good the HP [TS]

00:51:25   didn't have the guts to stick for even [TS]

00:51:27   two seconds and Jobs has the guts to [TS]

00:51:29   stick tremendously now he's not dumb he [TS]

00:51:31   didn't stick with the g4 cube when it [TS]

00:51:32   wasn't selling at all he didn't stick [TS]

00:51:33   with the hockey puck Mouse forever he [TS]

00:51:35   stuck with it for a long time you know [TS]

00:51:37   he's stubborn but he's not stupid so the [TS]

00:51:39   fine line between having the courage of [TS]

00:51:41   your convictions and being foolhardy [TS]

00:51:43   Apple has walked that line really well [TS]

00:51:45   were afraid without jobs is that because [TS]

00:51:48   he's not there [TS]

00:51:49   even if people are trying to do exactly [TS]

00:51:51   what he would do that they'll be more [TS]

00:51:53   that the dissent within the organization [TS]

00:51:55   could possibly cause the guy the top to [TS]

00:52:00   make different decisions than Steve [TS]

00:52:02   would just because he doesn't feel like [TS]

00:52:03   he has the wherewithal to you know to [TS]

00:52:06   stick to his guns the way Jobs would the [TS]

00:52:08   same way when Jobs backslides abut he [TS]

00:52:10   was four completely convinced that he [TS]

00:52:11   was right about that too it was like [TS]

00:52:12   well it's time to can-can the g4 he was [TS]

00:52:14   as as convinced that caning a g4 was the [TS]

00:52:18   right thing to do g4 cube rather caning [TS]

00:52:20   the cube is the right thing to do he was [TS]

00:52:21   as convinced of that as he was that it [TS]

00:52:23   was the right thing to do to ship it in [TS]

00:52:25   to begin with like he will turn that [TS]

00:52:26   corner very well I don't know if Tim [TS]

00:52:29   Cook can do that so so that's what I'm [TS]

00:52:34   thinking of with this will Apple have [TS]

00:52:37   less of a unified friend the short term [TS]

00:52:38   I don't think so in the long term this [TS]

00:52:42   is we are going to be watching for four [TS]

00:52:44   reversals made too soon or product [TS]

00:52:47   compromises that that seemed [TS]

00:52:51   inappropriate that was really hard to [TS]

00:52:52   pick these out because think about your [TS]

00:52:54   cruddy MacBook that you hate the one [TS]

00:52:56   with the no firewire port you have that [TS]

00:52:57   thing yes it enough sitting in and I [TS]

00:52:59   don't I'm not using it right now cuz I [TS]

00:53:01   just it offends me right so it's like if [TS]

00:53:04   we look at that and we say you know oh [TS]

00:53:06   well we everyone decides that Steve Jobs [TS]

00:53:08   is mister Simplification he's the guy [TS]

00:53:09   who kills the floppy he's the guy who [TS]

00:53:11   gets rid of the optical drive and [TS]

00:53:12   certainly he's the guy gets rid of the [TS]

00:53:14   firewire progress that's just his mojo [TS]

00:53:15   we don't even know if that again we [TS]

00:53:16   don't know if that was him but that's [TS]

00:53:18   what Apple did they got rid of the [TS]

00:53:19   firewire port [TS]

00:53:20   and they turned around on they said [TS]

00:53:23   actually I guess that was a bad decision [TS]

00:53:25   customers have told us that you know for [TS]

00:53:27   the two cents that we save on having [TS]

00:53:29   this firewire chipset they're not ready [TS]

00:53:31   for this port to be gone like and they [TS]

00:53:33   put it back [TS]

00:53:33   all right near the next MacBooks had to [TS]

00:53:36   have the final report back on yeah going [TS]

00:53:38   forward you know thunderbolt we all [TS]

00:53:40   assume will eventually wipe out all [TS]

00:53:41   other ports and it would just be [TS]

00:53:43   thunderbolt but it wasn't it wasn't time [TS]

00:53:45   yet right so now say that same move [TS]

00:53:47   happens with jobs not there everyone's [TS]

00:53:48   gonna be like oh well Steve Jobs was [TS]

00:53:50   here they never would have done that or [TS]

00:53:51   or Steve Jobs here they would have done [TS]

00:53:53   it and stuck to it well Steve Jobs was [TS]

00:53:55   there they did it it was wrong they [TS]

00:53:56   reversed it so how we it's gonna be [TS]

00:53:58   really hard to distinguish between [TS]

00:54:00   things all that things that are [TS]

00:54:02   happening that looked like they wouldn't [TS]

00:54:04   it happened under Steve Jobs every time [TS]

00:54:05   one of those things happens I think we [TS]

00:54:07   should think back to things that happen [TS]

00:54:08   when he was there and say is this so [TS]

00:54:09   different you know so say the Tim Cook [TS]

00:54:11   Apple ships all of their Mac laptops [TS]

00:54:14   with no obstacles like we all assume [TS]

00:54:16   they're gonna do they're all gonna go [TS]

00:54:17   MacBook Air right but they just too soon [TS]

00:54:19   and people revolt and then he reverses [TS]

00:54:21   and puts back an optical on one of them [TS]

00:54:22   likeness I see if Steve Jobs was here [TS]

00:54:24   that never would have happened what [TS]

00:54:25   happen it happened with the fire our [TS]

00:54:26   report and he was there right like Apple [TS]

00:54:30   with Steve Jobs was not infallible they [TS]

00:54:32   just made you know they recognize their [TS]

00:54:34   mistakes corrected them and made most of [TS]

00:54:36   the right big move so it'll be really [TS]

00:54:38   difficult we have to watch ourselves [TS]

00:54:39   everybody watch ourselves in the post [TS]

00:54:42   Jobs Apple of making us think that [TS]

00:54:44   anytime something goes wrong is because [TS]

00:54:46   Jobs isn't there we should remember all [TS]

00:54:47   the things that he did despite the [TS]

00:54:49   things all I said about will Apple be [TS]

00:54:51   more wofully or whatever it's going to [TS]

00:54:52   be so hard to to be honest with [TS]

00:54:54   ourselves about is this something the [TS]

00:54:58   Apple under Steve Jobs would have done [TS]

00:54:59   and doesn't matter in the grand scheme [TS]

00:55:00   of things like this gets me to my next [TS]

00:55:03   point so like what is the with the [TS]

00:55:05   future of Apple post jobs not just like [TS]

00:55:07   this year next year or you know putting [TS]

00:55:09   out the iPhone 5 or a new line of [TS]

00:55:10   laptops that opticals or all the things [TS]

00:55:12   that you know Retina displays for Mac's [TS]

00:55:14   and retina display on an iPad like this [TS]

00:55:16   whole queue of stuff we all have in our [TS]

00:55:18   heads that Apple's gonna do it's just [TS]

00:55:20   obvious evolutions of the stuff that [TS]

00:55:23   they have going on right now and it's [TS]

00:55:24   just a question of timing and details [TS]

00:55:26   and stuff like that [TS]

00:55:26   cheaper iPhones more carriers you know [TS]

00:55:30   an iPhone that's legitimately 50 bucks [TS]

00:55:31   you know that all the things that we've [TS]

00:55:33   talked about [TS]

00:55:34   in the past like put that aside the [TS]

00:55:38   things that that we should be worried [TS]

00:55:40   about or what's the next big move and [TS]

00:55:42   this was we were worried about this [TS]

00:55:43   human jobs was here but you saw the [TS]

00:55:45   articles are saying well so apples [TS]

00:55:47   entered the phone market they dominated [TS]

00:55:48   the music player market they've done [TS]

00:55:50   digital music sales digital video like [TS]

00:55:53   what's the next big move because they [TS]

00:55:55   made a whole bunch of big moves in the [TS]

00:55:58   jobs to era simplifying the product line [TS]

00:55:59   big company changing move the iPod big [TS]

00:56:02   move but you know music players pants [TS]

00:56:04   when does Apple make music plays they [TS]

00:56:05   make computer so I the phone entering [TS]

00:56:07   the phone mark gigantic move the iPad [TS]

00:56:08   creating this market for tablets it [TS]

00:56:11   didn't exist before and you know at the [TS]

00:56:13   post PC era and stuff like that those [TS]

00:56:14   are the big moves I would say that Apple [TS]

00:56:15   has done in the jobs to are what's the [TS]

00:56:18   next big move what's the next thing that [TS]

00:56:20   they do that's the thing that we should [TS]

00:56:23   all be watching for because all those [TS]

00:56:25   big moves seemed crazy and ridiculous to [TS]

00:56:30   us and we just kind of like trusted in [TS]

00:56:32   Steve Jobs app like well you know he was [TS]

00:56:34   right with the iPod so maybe this phone [TS]

00:56:35   thing will work oh my god he's right [TS]

00:56:36   with the phone thing with this pad thing [TS]

00:56:37   I don't get it but you know I think a [TS]

00:56:39   lot of us even doubted the iPad like [TS]

00:56:41   when it came out the Gruber was saying [TS]

00:56:43   he didn't he didn't expect it to be as [TS]

00:56:44   amazing right as he thought like yeah a [TS]

00:56:47   Stein John if what he thought Steve Jobs [TS]

00:56:50   was going to be most proud of whether it [TS]

00:56:52   be the iPhone or the iPad and he said [TS]

00:56:54   the iPad he thought the iPad because I [TS]

00:56:57   mean you don't you disagree with that [TS]

00:56:59   ah I mean I don't know it's tough to say [TS]

00:57:02   well you I think it would think about [TS]

00:57:04   your answer we got to do we got to do [TS]

00:57:05   our second sponsor it's field notes so [TS]

00:57:09   the show is brought to you by field Note [TS]

00:57:10   brand made in the USA memo books more I [TS]

00:57:13   was saying yesterday on the show I never [TS]

00:57:15   at least to these on the desk I have two [TS]

00:57:16   different things I have handful these my [TS]

00:57:18   latest one has a little little Texas [TS]

00:57:20   State on it because this is the County [TS]

00:57:23   Fair regional edition but you can also [TS]

00:57:24   go check out the American tradesman [TS]

00:57:26   edition this is a limited release for [TS]

00:57:30   summer and these it comes with a [TS]

00:57:31   carpenter pencil how cool is that they [TS]

00:57:33   always send you the coolest things with [TS]

00:57:34   these things I love these things these [TS]

00:57:35   are these great little notebooks you see [TS]

00:57:37   all the people carrying you get to get [TS]

00:57:38   these they're available individually you [TS]

00:57:41   can just get one or actually I think you [TS]

00:57:42   can get a pack of three or you should be [TS]

00:57:45   smart and get a yearly subscription [TS]

00:57:46   you'll save money and you [TS]

00:57:48   even more money if he uses coupon heard [TS]

00:57:50   it from Dan heard it from Dan one word [TS]

00:57:52   and you'll save 25 bucks on a [TS]

00:57:55   subscription these things I love these [TS]

00:57:56   things now what are people using if [TS]

00:57:59   they're did to write notes I don't have [TS]

00:58:00   no idea [TS]

00:58:01   field notes brand I'm not writing it [TS]

00:58:03   down to remember later I'm writing it [TS]

00:58:04   down [TS]

00:58:04   to remember it now field notes brand.com [TS]

00:58:08   use these things that slogan sounds like [TS]

00:58:11   something that Merlin want to come up [TS]

00:58:12   with doesn't I think Jim could all came [TS]

00:58:14   up with it but it does it does sound [TS]

00:58:16   like a Merlin ISM that's right [TS]

00:58:18   it's a good slogan seems like the kind [TS]

00:58:20   of thing he'd come up with and he just [TS]

00:58:22   give to you because he's nice so uh the [TS]

00:58:26   things these jobs is proudest of I don't [TS]

00:58:28   know like I'm I think he's proudest of [TS]

00:58:30   the company in general because I can but [TS]

00:58:32   okay but what you can't say that that's [TS]

00:58:34   a cop-out I mean what it's not a cop-out [TS]

00:58:35   because they'd is a cop-out [TS]

00:58:37   I'll get I don't know it I don't know [TS]

00:58:39   how much of this talk about and how much [TS]

00:58:41   is saved for Oracle I eventually write [TS]

00:58:42   but the win in the year so the iPad the [TS]

00:58:45   revolution fomented by the iPad I think [TS]

00:58:47   Steve Jobs will be the proud of not [TS]

00:58:49   necessarily the specific product but the [TS]

00:58:50   idea that it has always been his idea [TS]

00:58:52   that he wants more people to be [TS]

00:58:55   successful with technology and the iPad [TS]

00:58:57   even more so than the iPod the iPod made [TS]

00:59:00   people successful digital music but it's [TS]

00:59:02   different than like what he's always [TS]

00:59:04   wanted is the things that we do with PCs [TS]

00:59:05   accessible to more people like that's [TS]

00:59:07   what the Mac was about that's what the [TS]

00:59:08   GUI was about he all the things you can [TS]

00:59:11   do with the PC but let more people do [TS]

00:59:13   them and the iPad is such a huge leap in [TS]

00:59:15   that direction [TS]

00:59:16   removing lots of stuff that prevented [TS]

00:59:18   regular people from being able to do the [TS]

00:59:19   stuff that we can all do with PCs hmm [TS]

00:59:21   and I bet a group is probably right [TS]

00:59:24   about that but that idea that that was [TS]

00:59:26   the next big ratchet in terms of [TS]

00:59:28   allowing people to use technology [TS]

00:59:30   without you know being afraid or [TS]

00:59:32   confused or whatever and yeah I probably [TS]

00:59:35   think he is the proudest of that not so [TS]

00:59:36   much the specific iPad product any more [TS]

00:59:38   than the specific original Mac he would [TS]

00:59:40   you know say he had been gone in the 90s [TS]

00:59:43   he would have been the proudest of the [TS]

00:59:44   Mac because that was the first big giant [TS]

00:59:46   leap from nobody can use computers [TS]

00:59:48   unless you're super nerd - now it's [TS]

00:59:50   accessible to more people on the iPad is [TS]

00:59:51   the next big leap in that direction now [TS]

00:59:53   the iPhone is like well isn't that a [TS]

00:59:55   leap in that direction - because it's [TS]

00:59:56   you know it's a computer it was like a [TS]

00:59:58   decoy computer people to know [TS]

00:59:58   decoy computer people to know [TS]

01:00:00   was a computer they thought it was a [TS]

01:00:00   phone really was this little computer [TS]

01:00:02   but the iPad makes that clearer and [TS]

01:00:04   makes more of the things you can do with [TS]

01:00:06   the PC accessible just because the [TS]

01:00:08   screen is bigger so those two are kind [TS]

01:00:09   of combined because they really are of a [TS]

01:00:11   piece and as we all know we've heard the [TS]

01:00:13   stories about how you know the iPad [TS]

01:00:15   under the guise of Safari pad or [TS]

01:00:16   whatever had existed long before the [TS]

01:00:18   iPhone and then they were going to make [TS]

01:00:19   a phone in this whole debate about the [TS]

01:00:20   phone was Linux or Mac OS 10 and it's [TS]

01:00:23   like we know we've got that stuff that [TS]

01:00:25   we messed around with with the pad what [TS]

01:00:26   if we just shrink that down and put it [TS]

01:00:27   on the phone like the iPad actually came [TS]

01:00:29   first even though the product shipped [TS]

01:00:30   later so that I kind of put that whole [TS]

01:00:33   iOS iPad thing I kind of combined them [TS]

01:00:36   into one but but yeah the iPad is [TS]

01:00:38   success in the market I think is the is [TS]

01:00:42   what he's going to be proud of stuff in [TS]

01:00:43   terms of moving the pushing the human [TS]

01:00:46   race forward to quote their ad and [TS]

01:00:49   making more people be successful with [TS]

01:00:51   technology now I was talking about the [TS]

01:00:54   next big moves like those are the past [TS]

01:00:55   big moves in it what's the next big move [TS]

01:00:57   a police because as a company like jobs [TS]

01:01:00   maybe proudest that iPad is a product [TS]

01:01:02   and the phenomenon in terms of making [TS]

01:01:05   people successful with technology but as [TS]

01:01:06   a company that moves that Apple is made [TS]

01:01:08   to make Apple successful you'd have to [TS]

01:01:10   count like for example the iPod as the [TS]

01:01:12   most significant move in the jobs to our [TS]

01:01:13   because it was the first move away from [TS]

01:01:15   computers and it was the first thing [TS]

01:01:16   that Apple did that proved it we can we [TS]

01:01:20   can shape industries we can digital [TS]

01:01:22   music is messed up now we can come in [TS]

01:01:25   and we can fix it right side you know [TS]

01:01:26   don't download it illegally you can give [TS]

01:01:28   us money we're going to make people [TS]

01:01:30   successful digital music not just nerds [TS]

01:01:31   downloading stuff from Napster and that [TS]

01:01:33   they changed the entire industry like [TS]

01:01:35   from a company's perspective that showed [TS]

01:01:37   that Apple was a mover and a shaker that [TS]

01:01:39   could do stuff and same thing with the [TS]

01:01:40   phone the phone industry was [TS]

01:01:41   disestablished thing elapsed not just [TS]

01:01:43   going to walk in blah blah blah this had [TS]

01:01:45   these incumbents that were huge and [TS]

01:01:46   powerful and they they came in they just [TS]

01:01:48   shook up the whole industry just you [TS]

01:01:50   know change the landscape right so from [TS]

01:01:52   a corporate perspective those are the [TS]

01:01:54   big corporate moves right and in that [TS]

01:01:56   from that perspective the iPad is like [TS]

01:01:59   not as earth-shaking as the iPod and [TS]

01:02:02   iPhone because the pod was making you [TS]

01:02:04   know redefining music the phone was [TS]

01:02:06   shaking up the phone industry and the [TS]

01:02:07   pad was kind of making a new industry [TS]

01:02:09   where well I don't know if you could say [TS]

01:02:12   its new it's like [TS]

01:02:13   forget about netbooks forget about cheap [TS]

01:02:15   crappy pcs here's this new thing like [TS]

01:02:16   it's significant but it didn't kick out [TS]

01:02:19   incumbents so much as as the you know [TS]

01:02:22   the other two moves did so now what's [TS]

01:02:24   the looking at these moves you like well [TS]

01:02:26   did jobs originate these ideas did he [TS]

01:02:29   decide let's make a music player did [TS]

01:02:30   someone come to him and say I have an [TS]

01:02:31   idea for a music player and he [TS]

01:02:32   immediately saw this is a great thing [TS]

01:02:34   right and all these instances did he did [TS]

01:02:35   he come up with these ideas or did he [TS]

01:02:37   just approve them or how many similarly [TS]

01:02:40   big moves were presented to him did [TS]

01:02:42   someone say we really need to get into [TS]

01:02:44   the rental car business right and we're [TS]

01:02:47   gonna revolutionize the rental car [TS]

01:02:48   business and he said no we're not gonna [TS]

01:02:50   do that one like we don't know how many [TS]

01:02:52   big ideas came through the halls of [TS]

01:02:54   Apple we just know the big moves that [TS]

01:02:56   they did right so the next big step were [TS]

01:02:59   like you know are people coming to Tim [TS]

01:03:02   Cook and saying we need to get into [TS]

01:03:04   rental cars again we need to get into [TS]

01:03:07   pizza delivery like whatever like how [TS]

01:03:09   many big ideas is he get pitched there's [TS]

01:03:11   the dumb sure there's lots of big ideas [TS]

01:03:13   right you know when I think and that's [TS]

01:03:15   what we're all looking for what's the [TS]

01:03:16   next thing Apple's gonna do iPod iPhone [TS]

01:03:18   iPad what is that maybe it all has to be [TS]

01:03:21   with I what's the next big thing they're [TS]

01:03:22   going to do and the obvious choice [TS]

01:03:24   though the one that's kind of always [TS]

01:03:25   doing around there is like during all [TS]

01:03:28   the stuff has been going on Apple has [TS]

01:03:29   been trying to do something with TV this [TS]

01:03:32   was our very first show if you remember [TS]

01:03:33   that hypercritical episode number one [TS]

01:03:35   yeah [TS]

01:03:35   what's wrong with TV alright most of the [TS]

01:03:39   things that I said are wrong with TV are [TS]

01:03:40   still wrong with TV and Apple has [TS]

01:03:41   fielded the Apple TV one the Apple TV 2 [TS]

01:03:44   they've always said it's just hobby they [TS]

01:03:45   like hedged and kind of said you know [TS]

01:03:47   this is not our big move this is not our [TS]

01:03:49   big company move but every time in the [TS]

01:03:51   earnings call and some analysts ask them [TS]

01:03:53   about the TV stuff they're like and Tim [TS]

01:03:55   Cook himself has said this in many of [TS]

01:03:56   them you know we think there's something [TS]

01:03:58   there we at Apple think there's [TS]

01:03:59   something there so they realize that [TS]

01:04:00   this is this frontier they just haven't [TS]

01:04:03   made their big move yet they made their [TS]

01:04:05   big move in the phone space like they're [TS]

01:04:06   doing that the TV space they recognize [TS]

01:04:09   is broken [TS]

01:04:10   and Steve Jobs himself I talked about [TS]

01:04:12   the TiVo episode is that they're not [TS]

01:04:13   interested in making something like TiVo [TS]

01:04:15   they're not interested in making [TS]

01:04:16   something like Google TV they just don't [TS]

01:04:18   know what they're going to do yet the [TS]

01:04:19   Apple TV one was kind of this thing not [TS]

01:04:22   great Apple TV two came closer to the [TS]

01:04:24   mark but it's not setting the world on [TS]

01:04:26   fire like the iPhone [TS]

01:04:27   right that's the obvious next big step [TS]

01:04:31   is Apple makes its move in the space of [TS]

01:04:34   video not necessarily TV because as I [TS]

01:04:37   think Horus pointed out and either on [TS]

01:04:39   this side or in some of his podcasts the [TS]

01:04:42   it's the the television space the thing [TS]

01:04:45   that's going to disrupt the television [TS]

01:04:46   space is probably not going to be [TS]

01:04:47   something that builds on the the [TS]

01:04:51   existing infrastructure it's going to be [TS]

01:04:53   something that bypasses it or makes it [TS]

01:04:55   obsolete kind of in the same way the [TS]

01:04:56   Netflix was trying to where it's not [TS]

01:04:58   going to be like like TiVo where and [TS]

01:05:00   like the thing I was advocating that I [TS]

01:05:02   would still love you know take the [TS]

01:05:04   existing landscape of stuff and make it [TS]

01:05:06   easier for me to deal with and TiVo was [TS]

01:05:07   supposed to be doing that and has been [TS]

01:05:09   failing in its mission for variety of [TS]

01:05:10   reasons listen episode number one [TS]

01:05:12   eyeballs not interested in doing that [TS]

01:05:14   they just haven't figured out how to [TS]

01:05:17   crack that nut yet right because it's [TS]

01:05:20   like chicken and egg thing they can't [TS]

01:05:21   get the content because the the existing [TS]

01:05:24   bodies have got it all locked up and I [TS]

01:05:26   think as Horace pointed out TV is the [TS]

01:05:27   least changed of any of the [TS]

01:05:29   infrastructure things that we have you [TS]

01:05:30   think about like the telecommunications [TS]

01:05:34   is much more radically changed before [TS]

01:05:35   Apple even came along going from [TS]

01:05:37   landlines cell phone stuff like that TV [TS]

01:05:38   is very similar to how it was when TV [TS]

01:05:40   was first invented and it's also very [TS]

01:05:41   young this you know programming and the [TS]

01:05:44   networks and I guess cable was kind of a [TS]

01:05:45   disruption but it's like to get past [TS]

01:05:48   that to get past the chicken in the egg [TS]

01:05:49   people want to watch their shows and if [TS]

01:05:51   you're going to offer them something it [TS]

01:05:52   doesn't offer them their shows or if HBO [TS]

01:05:54   is going to have it shows locked up in [TS]

01:05:55   the only way you can gauge Bo is through [TS]

01:05:56   a cable company how can you ever fight [TS]

01:05:58   with that like cable company gives you [TS]

01:06:00   the set-top box they've got all the [TS]

01:06:01   content locked up yeah you can try to be [TS]

01:06:03   streaming and renting stuff but it's [TS]

01:06:05   time delay it and you can't get all the [TS]

01:06:07   shows and people don't put up with that [TS]

01:06:08   so what we're doing now is kind of like [TS]

01:06:10   augmenting like regular people are are [TS]

01:06:13   augmenting their existing cable and [TS]

01:06:16   stuff with these other things like all I [TS]

01:06:18   need to have cables I can watch my [TS]

01:06:19   sports shows but MLB is lets me watch [TS]

01:06:21   the baseball but not the local baseball [TS]

01:06:23   games I still need TV for that but I [TS]

01:06:24   also do Netflix screaming streaming to [TS]

01:06:26   watch this but I gotta get HBO because I [TS]

01:06:27   want to see a game of Thrones without [TS]

01:06:29   having to wait for it like it's this big [TS]

01:06:31   mishmash of crap and Apple realizes is a [TS]

01:06:33   mishmash of crap and they have not [TS]

01:06:34   figured out how to crack that nut [TS]

01:06:36   I expect that the [TS]

01:06:40   the obvious next big thing Apple can do [TS]

01:06:42   is make their move on in television they [TS]

01:06:44   haven't done it yet now that doesn't [TS]

01:06:46   mean that's going to be the thing [TS]

01:06:47   they're going to do if Apple has shown [TS]

01:06:49   us anything is that the next big thing [TS]

01:06:51   they do is often the thing that you're [TS]

01:06:52   not thinking of so I don't know what the [TS]

01:06:54   next big thing is but this is this is [TS]

01:06:56   the job of the the post jobs to air [TS]

01:06:58   Apple the Tim Cook era Apple what you [TS]

01:07:02   know not now not a year from now not two [TS]

01:07:04   years now but eventually if Apple wants [TS]

01:07:06   to keep going like they're gone they [TS]

01:07:08   have to make their next big move what is [TS]

01:07:10   that next big move what industry are [TS]

01:07:12   they going to get into and you know [TS]

01:07:15   change the landscape tough if they don't [TS]

01:07:17   keep doing that then that will be kind [TS]

01:07:20   of like they're becoming like Microsoft [TS]

01:07:22   that they have this string of great [TS]

01:07:24   successes in big industries yeah Apple [TS]

01:07:25   could be a success for huge success for [TS]

01:07:27   years and years the biggest company in [TS]

01:07:28   the world for years and years just on [TS]

01:07:30   the power of the business that it [TS]

01:07:31   started now so they come to dominate the [TS]

01:07:33   phone business they they continue to [TS]

01:07:34   dominate digital music business and the [TS]

01:07:36   products get better and better and Mac [TS]

01:07:38   market share grows and like that's still [TS]

01:07:40   a great business but the Apple that [TS]

01:07:41   leases expect like maybe you can't keep [TS]

01:07:43   this up forever but what we expect is [TS]

01:07:45   every couple years or maybe it's every [TS]

01:07:47   couple of you know every decade or [TS]

01:07:48   something that Apple does what Apple [TS]

01:07:51   does it would just take an existing [TS]

01:07:53   market of technology that stinks and [TS]

01:07:56   make it better and everyone's got their [TS]

01:07:58   pet peeves mine I was obviously as [TS]

01:08:00   television and Apple has shown some [TS]

01:08:02   interest in that but that's what we [TS]

01:08:04   expect Apple to do if Apple stops doing [TS]

01:08:07   that if we're 70 years old and I list [TS]

01:08:09   off the great things that Apple did you [TS]

01:08:11   know in the 21st century and I still [TS]

01:08:13   list the same ones we listed iPod iPhone [TS]

01:08:15   iPad Apple will still have been a great [TS]

01:08:17   company but we maybe were expecting the [TS]

01:08:20   possible but we expect them to continue [TS]

01:08:22   to surprise us with with new things and [TS]

01:08:27   to take on new markets it's due to was [TS]

01:08:30   that the show voyagers travel to time to [TS]

01:08:33   help history along give it a push where [TS]

01:08:34   it's needed that's Apple they're they're [TS]

01:08:36   looking they look at the landscape of [TS]

01:08:37   stuff they find the stuff that's crappy [TS]

01:08:39   and we say you know do can we make that [TS]

01:08:41   better can we make a better phone can we [TS]

01:08:42   figure this out because we all hate our [TS]

01:08:44   phones eventually said yes we can make a [TS]

01:08:45   better phone we can make phones better [TS]

01:08:47   let's do that TV so far the said it's [TS]

01:08:50   it's not good we make that better maybe [TS]

01:08:54   try appletv it didn't quite work out [TS]

01:08:56   Apple TV - like they haven't made their [TS]

01:08:57   move I don't know what the next big [TS]

01:08:59   thing and maybe it is pizza delivery [TS]

01:09:00   your car rentals who knows I mean Google [TS]

01:09:02   is doing self-driving cars that you know [TS]

01:09:03   stranger things that happen but that [TS]

01:09:06   that's what I'm looking for in the in [TS]

01:09:08   the Tim Cook era is what is the next big [TS]

01:09:10   thing they're going to do and all the [TS]

01:09:11   little things I'm not as worried about [TS]

01:09:14   again I'll be watching it to see if [TS]

01:09:16   there's any USB a port and iPad type [TS]

01:09:18   stumbles and I'll be trying to be honest [TS]

01:09:21   with myself about whether that is a sign [TS]

01:09:23   of something bad or it's just something [TS]

01:09:26   that would have happened under jobs [TS]

01:09:27   anyway equivalent to the firewire port [TS]

01:09:31   so that's what I think I have to say [TS]

01:09:33   about the post jobs error and one other [TS]

01:09:38   thing I think on gruba show you asked [TS]

01:09:41   him I don't remember you phrased the [TS]

01:09:44   question but it was basically would [TS]

01:09:46   Steve Jobs ever come back [TS]

01:09:48   and groobie said nada this is different [TS]

01:09:50   yeah he's not gonna he would never come [TS]

01:09:51   back ah I think the question was too [TS]

01:09:55   vague for me to understand what you [TS]

01:09:57   really meant for but um I think if Steve [TS]

01:10:02   Jobs health miraculously became normal [TS]

01:10:05   and he was just as healthy as an ox and [TS]

01:10:07   was gonna live for another 40 years he [TS]

01:10:10   would come back and be CEOs yeah I never [TS]

01:10:12   saying guarantee like I Gruber was [TS]

01:10:14   answering you were asking the question [TS]

01:10:15   in the spirit of reality and we all kind [TS]

01:10:17   of understand that his health is [TS]

01:10:19   probably such that that's never going to [TS]

01:10:20   happen but say some miracle did happen [TS]

01:10:22   and he becomes completely cured he's an [TS]

01:10:25   ox drunk he's coming back and taking [TS]

01:10:26   over and and you kidding Apple would beg [TS]

01:10:28   for him to come like it's not like it [TS]

01:10:30   would be he would come and take over you [TS]

01:10:31   know if he suddenly became healthy and [TS]

01:10:33   was ready to go for another few decades [TS]

01:10:35   the company would beg him to come back [TS]

01:10:37   and he would come back in a second [TS]

01:10:38   there's no way he would be alive and [TS]

01:10:39   healthy and letting someone else run [TS]

01:10:40   Apple again that's not the spirit in [TS]

01:10:44   which you asked the question it's not [TS]

01:10:45   the spirit in which group answered it so [TS]

01:10:46   I believe he's writing her himself he's [TS]

01:10:48   not going to come back assuming his [TS]

01:10:49   health continues to stay the same or [TS]

01:10:50   decline but if some miracle did happen [TS]

01:10:53   yeah he'd be back because you know he [TS]

01:10:55   can't stand - you know it said he [TS]

01:10:57   doesn't want to let go but he's he's [TS]

01:10:59   doing the responsible thing and saying I [TS]

01:11:00   you know basically saying my health is [TS]

01:11:03   no longer up to it so do [TS]

01:11:05   do you feel how how scheduled was this [TS]

01:11:12   John Gruber seemed to think that it was [TS]

01:11:13   somewhat scheduled and in that this [TS]

01:11:16   wasn't a spontaneous decision it was [TS]

01:11:18   something that was planned whether it [TS]

01:11:19   was planned for weeks or months maybe [TS]

01:11:22   maybe there's a question but this is [TS]

01:11:24   this was a plan and do you feel that [TS]

01:11:26   this was a plan or was this something [TS]

01:11:28   that was a it's so hard to tell without [TS]

01:11:30   knowing details of his personal life [TS]

01:11:32   that are nobody's business right so but [TS]

01:11:34   if you look at it from the outside my [TS]

01:11:37   impression is that the second indefinite [TS]

01:11:39   medical leave was taken in the spirit [TS]

01:11:44   that the responsible thing to do is to [TS]

01:11:47   do this now and to make a gradual [TS]

01:11:48   transition and if it happens that [TS]

01:11:50   miraculously I start getting better we [TS]

01:11:53   didn't close the door on me coming back [TS]

01:11:54   but this is the beginning of a planned [TS]

01:11:57   gradual transition process like planned [TS]

01:12:01   or not they had a gradual transition [TS]

01:12:03   where you know he had a liver transplant [TS]

01:12:04   then he came back didn't know he could [TS]

01:12:06   have died having a liver transplant [TS]

01:12:07   right that would have been a more abrupt [TS]

01:12:08   transition right but he what it just [TS]

01:12:12   turned out is that have a series of [TS]

01:12:13   steps where you know certainly the thing [TS]

01:12:15   that has been planned is I think jobs [TS]

01:12:17   having other people do more stuff at [TS]

01:12:18   keynotes that was a hundred percent [TS]

01:12:20   planned because he said you know we've [TS]

01:12:21   got to start preparing for this I need [TS]

01:12:22   to I you know I'm going to intro stuff [TS]

01:12:27   and then everyone else is going to come [TS]

01:12:27   on do their bits I'm not going to do the [TS]

01:12:30   whole keynote myself whereas he used to [TS]

01:12:31   do that so that was definitely planned [TS]

01:12:33   but everything else with him leaving and [TS]

01:12:34   coming back every time it's like we have [TS]

01:12:37   to do this because it's the responsible [TS]

01:12:39   thing and if it so happens that I start [TS]

01:12:41   getting better [TS]

01:12:42   I'll start coming back right so the [TS]

01:12:43   indefinite leave was probably taken in [TS]

01:12:46   the spirit that you know who knows maybe [TS]

01:12:48   I get better maybe I'll be back but with [TS]

01:12:49   the kind of pessimistic outlook is that [TS]

01:12:52   if I don't this is a great gradual [TS]

01:12:53   transition so I think it it's like a [TS]

01:12:58   plan that you don't want to be a plan [TS]

01:12:59   they didn't want this to be there was [TS]

01:13:01   nobody wanted it to be the way it was [TS]

01:13:02   and so every time they made this move [TS]

01:13:04   isn't like this were 100% locked in [TS]

01:13:07   Steve's exiting the company was always [TS]

01:13:09   like you know maybe maybe things will [TS]

01:13:10   get better maybe he'll come back and if [TS]

01:13:12   it doesn't we are on the course of a [TS]

01:13:14   nice gradual transition plan but if he [TS]

01:13:16   does you know hey we have no qualms [TS]

01:13:17   about canceling out so that's what I [TS]

01:13:18   think I think it's [TS]

01:13:19   it was undertaking a long gradual [TS]

01:13:23   transition that actually worked out very [TS]

01:13:25   well in terms of giving Tim Cook the [TS]

01:13:27   company for a long period of time [TS]

01:13:28   getting Wall Street comfortable with him [TS]

01:13:29   getting all of us comfortable with key [TS]

01:13:31   notes without Steve Jobs but at every [TS]

01:13:32   point it was while Apple was going [TS]

01:13:35   through the motions it was with the idea [TS]

01:13:36   that boy we hope this isn't the [TS]

01:13:38   transition pen that it appears to be we [TS]

01:13:40   hope that this is not what we're really [TS]

01:13:42   doing we hope things turn around right [TS]

01:13:43   so that that's that's my take home on [TS]

01:13:45   what it was like that it was a gradual [TS]

01:13:48   plan thing that nobody wanted to [TS]

01:13:49   actually be the plan that people [TS]

01:13:51   probably in denial I call you know maybe [TS]

01:13:53   maybe he'll be back and maybe you know [TS]

01:13:55   that that's my take on it do you feel I [TS]

01:13:59   guess this is a silly question to ask [TS]

01:14:01   you do you feel pessimistic or [TS]

01:14:05   optimistic in general now and then five [TS]

01:14:10   years from now about what Apple about [TS]

01:14:13   just like Apple well because I would say [TS]

01:14:17   I would say it seems that like you're [TS]

01:14:20   cautious very cautiously optimistic and [TS]

01:14:23   and maybe it on the scale of optimism [TS]

01:14:26   and pessimism and with with five in the [TS]

01:14:29   middle you're like 5.00 one optimistic [TS]

01:14:34   about as one general I'm pessimistic [TS]

01:14:37   about Steve Jobs prospects hmm I've [TS]

01:14:40   always been pessimistic about his health [TS]

01:14:42   Testament I've been mean that's what in [TS]

01:14:43   2007 like I said I was in a big rush to [TS]

01:14:45   write this thing what Apple's can be [TS]

01:14:46   like rusty I've always been pessimistic [TS]

01:14:48   about his health but just sad I don't [TS]

01:14:50   you know it's just how I've always felt [TS]

01:14:52   I've always been sad about I don't [TS]

01:14:53   didn't like the fact that you know even [TS]

01:14:55   though I don't know him personally like [TS]

01:14:57   you get attached to people who you don't [TS]

01:14:58   like it's like celebrities I guess you [TS]

01:15:00   think you know the person because you [TS]

01:15:03   you know read all about them and know [TS]

01:15:05   about their history or listen to their [TS]

01:15:08   songs or if they're select me know a [TS]

01:15:09   singer or whatever but you don't know [TS]

01:15:10   the person right but we all feel this [TS]

01:15:12   kind of weird personal connection with [TS]

01:15:13   Steve which has no basis in fact but [TS]

01:15:15   that's how I feel about him so I've been [TS]

01:15:16   pessimistic and sad about him Apple as a [TS]

01:15:18   company I definitely feel optimistic [TS]

01:15:20   about in the short term because I [TS]

01:15:22   believe in what Steve Jobs built I think [TS]

01:15:25   he's built something that is different [TS]

01:15:29   than the other things that are on the [TS]

01:15:31   landscape first [TS]

01:15:33   short-term like next five years I feel [TS]

01:15:35   pretty optimistic about Apple and that [TS]

01:15:38   gets back to the idea of us not knowing [TS]

01:15:39   what he did like I'm optimistic in the [TS]

01:15:41   sense that I believe there are at least [TS]

01:15:43   as many decisions that Steve Jobs made [TS]

01:15:46   they were wrong as there were they were [TS]

01:15:48   right not the overall like the big [TS]

01:15:50   scheme of things grand scheme he thinks [TS]

01:15:51   he's just been right about like almost [TS]

01:15:53   everything right so his tracker is great [TS]

01:15:55   but the little things right I believe [TS]

01:15:56   that [TS]

01:15:57   it'll be interesting to have a fresh [TS]

01:15:59   perspective on those little things and [TS]

01:16:01   that there's some upside to that in the [TS]

01:16:03   short term long term that's where I'm [TS]

01:16:05   pushing more towards pessimistic the [TS]

01:16:08   idea that Steve has seemed to know what [TS]

01:16:11   the right big moves are to make even if [TS]

01:16:13   you didn't come up with the moves [TS]

01:16:14   because look at the big moves Apple has [TS]

01:16:16   made I can't it's easy to find little [TS]

01:16:18   missteps a product here a port remove [TS]

01:16:20   there a policy here you know there's [TS]

01:16:23   lots of little things but the big moves [TS]

01:16:25   that he has made have just all been [TS]

01:16:26   right and it's amazing track record and [TS]

01:16:28   I'm pessimistic that an apple without [TS]

01:16:31   him will be able to make such big moves [TS]

01:16:35   or will make as many will be right every [TS]

01:16:39   single time right doesn't mean that the [TS]

01:16:41   company is going to go downhill like [TS]

01:16:42   even even if you make half as many [TS]

01:16:45   correct big moves as Apple you still be [TS]

01:16:49   doing better than the competition [TS]

01:16:49   because Illinois what I see from the [TS]

01:16:50   competition is either than making no big [TS]

01:16:52   moves or making horrible wrong ones [TS]

01:16:54   constantly yeah HP or might you know [TS]

01:16:56   Microsoft is like just floundering and [TS]

01:16:59   just not doing anything interesting and [TS]

01:17:01   the other rivals are making big moves [TS]

01:17:02   but you're like what are they doing I [TS]

01:17:04   think I think you're touching on the [TS]

01:17:06   biggest fear for the for the anybody [TS]

01:17:08   who's a fan of Apple is you look at [TS]

01:17:12   where Microsoft is today and you say how [TS]

01:17:15   could this this giant and we've said [TS]

01:17:17   this before I think on this program I [TS]

01:17:19   know I've said it before is that there [TS]

01:17:20   was a time in whether it was in the 80s [TS]

01:17:23   90s where Microsoft was so dominant not [TS]

01:17:27   just in the corporate world [TS]

01:17:28   they were so dominant they were [TS]

01:17:30   everywhere they did everything they do [TS]

01:17:32   find what people did except for the few [TS]

01:17:35   few of us who had the common sense to to [TS]

01:17:37   use a Mac they'd if they were they were [TS]

01:17:41   computers and the idea that they would [TS]

01:17:43   be in this kinda sorta we still are [TS]

01:17:47   relevant really trust me kind of space [TS]

01:17:50   that they're in right now at least [TS]

01:17:52   outside of the very corporate sector it [TS]

01:17:56   would you would be unthinkable how could [TS]

01:17:57   they how could they fall to this to this [TS]

01:17:59   state that people just don't even [TS]

01:18:02   consider them relevant when it comes to [TS]

01:18:04   modern thinking about computers that's [TS]

01:18:07   kind of the fear I think people have [TS]

01:18:09   about Apple they're like well with Steve [TS]

01:18:11   Jobs gone how long it's not a question [TS]

01:18:14   of if it's a question of how long until [TS]

01:18:17   Apple is in that situation how long [TS]

01:18:20   before they're not innovating how long [TS]

01:18:22   before they don't have remarkable [TS]

01:18:24   because look and and I'm not saying this [TS]

01:18:26   as the Apple fan that I am I'm saying [TS]

01:18:30   this as just as objective as I can [TS]

01:18:32   possibly be look at the great stuff that [TS]

01:18:36   they've made even over the last five [TS]

01:18:38   years just look at the last five years [TS]

01:18:39   forget anything before that forget [TS]

01:18:42   anything that came before that look at [TS]

01:18:43   the last five years of Apple's history [TS]

01:18:45   look at the great stuff they've made and [TS]

01:18:47   look at look at the great computers that [TS]

01:18:49   they've given us look at the iPhone look [TS]

01:18:51   at the iPad whatever pick pick one [TS]

01:18:53   they've innovated in that space [TS]

01:18:55   remarkably and that's the fear that [TS]

01:18:58   people have is what is going to happen [TS]

01:19:00   in the next five years are they gonna [TS]

01:19:03   fall the way Microsoft has you know [TS]

01:19:06   fallen in it from from from great that's [TS]

01:19:09   one of the topics actually have for a [TS]

01:19:10   future shows what ails Microsoft well [TS]

01:19:12   good I don't say I can't wait for that [TS]

01:19:14   one I don't have the fear Microsoft I [TS]

01:19:17   don't have the fear that Apple is going [TS]

01:19:18   to become a Microsoft simply because [TS]

01:19:20   Apple's already so much better than [TS]

01:19:22   Microsoft like Microsoft had one at two [TS]

01:19:26   maybe two big moves one one main big [TS]

01:19:28   move which is their big move with the [TS]

01:19:30   dawning of the PC H should become the [TS]

01:19:31   dominant player on the PC desktop like [TS]

01:19:33   they put all the wood behind that arrow [TS]

01:19:35   they concentrated hundred-percent we [TS]

01:19:38   were going to be the dominant player in [TS]

01:19:39   the PC space and they did it they [TS]

01:19:41   succeeded Microsoft PC and everybody's [TS]

01:19:43   desk they dominated they did it and that [TS]

01:19:46   is a huge victory especially miss Eve [TS]

01:19:48   even huger because back then it was the [TS]

01:19:50   dawning of this age and they were the [TS]

01:19:52   big dominant player so they were there I [TS]

01:19:54   don't think anyone will ever be as [TS]

01:19:55   dominant as Microsoft was just because [TS]

01:19:56   it was so early on [TS]

01:19:57   were so few players and you know that [TS]

01:20:00   was their one biggest move their second [TS]

01:20:03   big move might surprise you to hear what [TS]

01:20:05   I think it is but I think their second [TS]

01:20:06   big move was Xbox I don't think it was [TS]

01:20:09   successful I think they were like [TS]

01:20:12   fighting less you know fighting the last [TS]

01:20:14   war not the new war like they entered [TS]

01:20:16   the console space it was the first time [TS]

01:20:17   it was like their iPod let's branch out [TS]

01:20:20   the company in a direction that it [TS]

01:20:21   previously had only been timid you know [TS]

01:20:23   they went full force yeah we are going [TS]

01:20:25   to enter the home game console space [TS]

01:20:27   because we believe the home game console [TS]

01:20:29   is the gateway to blah blah blah blah [TS]

01:20:30   they're wrong about that sorry [TS]

01:20:33   turned out to be mobile and maybe the [TS]

01:20:35   iPad not game consoles that was kind of [TS]

01:20:37   an industry in decline right now but but [TS]

01:20:41   they you can't say that they didn't [TS]

01:20:42   commit to that they committed to the [TS]

01:20:44   console space which was different than [TS]

01:20:45   the PC desktop space and they weren't a [TS]

01:20:47   failure they're a strong number one [TS]

01:20:50   number two kind of foot but it's just [TS]

01:20:52   like they were in the wrong place at the [TS]

01:20:53   wrong time like that industry it's not [TS]

01:20:54   the fact that they are the number 1 [TS]

01:20:57   number 2 number 3 console maker [TS]

01:20:59   jockeying around with sony nintendo it's [TS]

01:21:01   like that's great and all but you know [TS]

01:21:04   we're not as excited about that as we [TS]

01:21:05   are about the iPhone the iPad or [TS]

01:21:07   anything like that like you would those [TS]

01:21:08   the game console space is already being [TS]

01:21:11   disrupted by these other things and you [TS]

01:21:12   being a player you just you got there in [TS]

01:21:15   time to be an incumbent and can get [TS]

01:21:16   disrupted with the rest of the [TS]

01:21:18   incumbents but but they committed to it [TS]

01:21:19   and they did a big move it was a big [TS]

01:21:21   company it wasn't like you know at [TS]

01:21:23   Microsoft ultimate TV or or even the [TS]

01:21:26   Zune or anything like that they put [TS]

01:21:27   billions and billions and billions of [TS]

01:21:29   dollars into Xbox and they made a very [TS]

01:21:31   good game console right they were [TS]

01:21:33   competitive they committed to it so [TS]

01:21:35   that's two you know one big move that [TS]

01:21:37   totally paid off and made the company [TS]

01:21:38   that defined Microsoft and another big [TS]

01:21:40   move that was like you know bb+ like you [TS]

01:21:44   kind of did okay but strategically [TS]

01:21:46   speaking it wasn't as smart as like you [TS]

01:21:48   know entering the phone space and they [TS]

01:21:50   yeah and they entered you know the phone [TS]

01:21:51   space in the PDA space but well I [TS]

01:21:52   wouldn't call those big moves they were [TS]

01:21:53   kind of like tepid half-hearted [TS]

01:21:55   strangled with strategy taxed by all [TS]

01:21:57   their windows stuff you know so like [TS]

01:21:59   that and that's why I don't think apples [TS]

01:22:01   in danger of becoming that because they [TS]

01:22:03   already have so many more like apples [TS]

01:22:05   defined by making big move after big [TS]

01:22:07   move Microsoft is defined by its one big [TS]

01:22:09   move that it [TS]

01:22:09   made and as Gruber pointed out like the [TS]

01:22:14   mo of typical corporation says make your [TS]

01:22:16   big move become a big success in than [TS]

01:22:17   defend and Apple doesn't that's not how [TS]

01:22:20   operates so Microsoft's fate was [TS]

01:22:23   preordained that yet you made your big [TS]

01:22:25   move and then you're gonna defend like [TS]

01:22:27   any company ever does and that is the [TS]

01:22:28   path to stagnation right and coming out [TS]

01:22:31   of that was like let's not just defend [TS]

01:22:32   let's try and bring a new market this to [TS]

01:22:33   Xbox but it was you know it wasn't it [TS]

01:22:37   wasn't as successful as their other move [TS]

01:22:38   right and it wasn't as big and the [TS]

01:22:41   payoff wasn't as big and you know [TS]

01:22:42   someone so forth so but Apple has not [TS]

01:22:44   done that they've always been forget the [TS]

01:22:47   past that who cares we got we gotta do [TS]

01:22:49   something new like that's the way the [TS]

01:22:50   company is always operate now it's true [TS]

01:22:52   the company could decide could become [TS]

01:22:54   more normal and not do that and like we [TS]

01:22:55   got to figure out how to defend our [TS]

01:22:57   existing markets and we're not going to [TS]

01:22:58   enter any new ones and we're not going [TS]

01:22:59   to be interesting right but that's not [TS]

01:23:01   how that's not the spirit of the company [TS]

01:23:03   right now and it would take a turnaround [TS]

01:23:05   to change it now let's compare it to [TS]

01:23:06   Google which is another one that that I [TS]

01:23:09   feel like is more in the Microsoft mold [TS]

01:23:10   Google's big thing was we're going to do [TS]

01:23:12   web search better than other people [TS]

01:23:13   right and how does Google make their [TS]

01:23:16   money you know to make it all their [TS]

01:23:17   equivalent windows and offices [TS]

01:23:18   advertising right I feel like that was [TS]

01:23:22   their one big move that's where they get [TS]

01:23:23   the majority of their revenue they're [TS]

01:23:25   not they're not like Apple where you [TS]

01:23:28   know Apple where does most of apples [TS]

01:23:30   revenue come from the only thing over [TS]

01:23:31   iding principle is that Apple makes us [TS]

01:23:32   money on hardware but what hardware you [TS]

01:23:34   know they're interesting new products [TS]

01:23:36   that are eclipsing lines that have been [TS]

01:23:37   around for 20 years Google is not [TS]

01:23:39   inducing a new product that it's [TS]

01:23:40   eclipsing it's add business right so [TS]

01:23:43   Google is more like Microsoft and Apple [TS]

01:23:46   is they should be more worried about [TS]

01:23:48   becoming stagnant because they're [TS]

01:23:50   defending their existing business Apple [TS]

01:23:52   should not be as worried about that this [TS]

01:23:53   is just not how the company operates so [TS]

01:23:55   yeah I'll be watching for that that's [TS]

01:23:56   why I'm saying what's the next big thing [TS]

01:23:57   because I want to see Apple continued to [TS]

01:23:59   be Apple I don't want to be like [TS]

01:24:00   Microsoft or Google but already I say [TS]

01:24:02   they have done more big moves in any of [TS]

01:24:04   those companies the Google's credits [TS]

01:24:06   trying Android is you could say is a big [TS]

01:24:08   move in that direction but they're you [TS]

01:24:10   know where are they making their money [TS]

01:24:11   they're not selling the handsets they're [TS]

01:24:12   not making money off licensing the OS [TS]

01:24:14   they're still taking their money off ads [TS]

01:24:16   it's their one thing you know Microsoft [TS]

01:24:17   is strangled by Windows in office and [TS]

01:24:19   their dominance of the PC desktop and [TS]

01:24:21   Google just seems laser focused on the [TS]

01:24:23   add business even though there aren't [TS]

01:24:24   all these other businesses it's like all [TS]

01:24:26   about the ads so you know I think apples [TS]

01:24:30   way ahead of the game and I I don't [TS]

01:24:33   worry too much about them even if they [TS]

01:24:35   never do another thing they're still [TS]

01:24:36   better than microphone Google so are you [TS]

01:24:37   comparing yourself right [TS]

01:24:39   who's the guy who's better than Apple [TS]

01:24:41   has made more big moves than Apple even [TS]

01:24:42   if they never make another big move [TS]

01:24:44   again uh in the grand scheme of things [TS]

01:24:47   you're gonna say yes they were a better [TS]

01:24:48   company than Microsoft and Google okay [TS]

01:24:56   it's a big show yeah yeah I'm why I [TS]

01:25:01   don't know I have a lot of feelings [TS]

01:25:02   about I can tell Apple and Steve Jobs [TS]

01:25:04   your emotion ship is been fully [TS]

01:25:06   activated for the last hour [TS]

01:25:10   like it was a Star Trek reference again [TS]

01:25:12   wasn't I don't know oh you know I would [TS]

01:25:17   have no way of knowing never seen that [TS]

01:25:19   show so what's next idea Fox why do you [TS]

01:25:28   follow this up it feels like a swan song [TS]

01:25:32   I think we could do Microsoft one next [TS]

01:25:35   oh yeah what ails Microsoft I gotta have [TS]

01:25:37   more topics that'd be good I could talk [TS]

01:25:41   more about HP people still wanna hear [TS]

01:25:42   about markdown I never did talk about [TS]

01:25:44   patents got so many topics ah good see [TS]

01:25:47   you were afraid we were gonna run out [TS]

01:25:48   yeah well you know big dramatic things [TS]

01:25:51   happen suddenly you get a new supply [TS]

01:25:52   yeah and certainly a lot of big dramatic [TS]

01:25:54   things happening this summer so there [TS]

01:25:56   was a theory that I think Marco proposed [TS]

01:25:59   actually before before hey there's just [TS]

01:26:01   a sort of a footnote to this show that's [TS]

01:26:03   unrelated but but you mentioned HP and [TS]

01:26:06   made me think of it before we do that I [TS]

01:26:07   wanna I'm trying to help my my friends [TS]

01:26:09   out over at thoughtbot um they're one of [TS]

01:26:12   leading Ruby on Rails development firms [TS]

01:26:14   they're looking to hire somebody an [TS]

01:26:16   expert designer specifically in your [TS]

01:26:18   neck of the woods John in Boston [TS]

01:26:21   you should go pay them a visit these [TS]

01:26:24   guys I mean you and I are you in Boston [TS]

01:26:27   Proper can we say that in the show or [TS]

01:26:29   you know what it's not I'm not but yeah [TS]

01:26:32   I don't know they let me visit them [TS]

01:26:33   because you know a perl guy they might [TS]

01:26:35   have like some sort of [TS]

01:26:36   that doesn't doesn't allow too much [TS]

01:26:40   punctuation into their shield shields up [TS]

01:26:42   I would say if they hear you coming on [TS]

01:26:45   well anyway these guys their designers [TS]

01:26:48   are very they're not just a you know [TS]

01:26:50   guys that make banners or something [TS]

01:26:53   these guys that they lead projects are [TS]

01:26:54   responsible for the user experience of [TS]

01:26:56   the company they focus on usability [TS]

01:26:58   visual design and then they do it all [TS]

01:27:00   with HTML and CSS and they even work in [TS]

01:27:03   the actual rails apps alongside the [TS]

01:27:05   developers so they're not they're not [TS]

01:27:07   isolated they're part of the team and [TS]

01:27:10   they do client work they do internal [TS]

01:27:12   projects they get 20% off their time to [TS]

01:27:15   work on new projects they're they're [TS]

01:27:17   really great and they enforce a 40-hour [TS]

01:27:19   workweek [TS]

01:27:19   they don't like people to do overtime [TS]

01:27:22   they like people to to have fun so to [TS]

01:27:25   find out more and apply for this you go [TS]

01:27:26   to thoughtbot comm slash jobs slash [TS]

01:27:29   designer and go there if this is you if [TS]

01:27:34   you're in the boston area if you want to [TS]

01:27:36   be in the boston area if you're a [TS]

01:27:37   designer these guys are looking for [TS]

01:27:39   somebody awesome when they do also work [TS]

01:27:40   so hopefully I can help mount Chad Pytel [TS]

01:27:43   my friend over there thanks Chad so [TS]

01:27:46   here's here's where I was going with [TS]

01:27:47   this John is Marko I think put proposed [TS]

01:27:53   the concept that you know how HP [TS]

01:27:56   announces fire sale but then they they [TS]

01:27:59   come back and they say oh well we're [TS]

01:28:01   going to make more we're making more and [TS]

01:28:03   we're going to keep selling them at this [TS]

01:28:05   rate for a limited time Marko it said do [TS]

01:28:07   you think that they're just doing that [TS]

01:28:09   because they've got inventory of this [TS]

01:28:10   above the parts and they just want to [TS]

01:28:12   clear everything out and I know you're [TS]

01:28:14   very focused on supply chains and [TS]

01:28:16   engineering and stuff what do you think [TS]

01:28:17   what do you make of that really quick [TS]

01:28:20   the inventory idea I don't like as much [TS]

01:28:23   as the manufacturing contract idea the [TS]

01:28:25   idea that they had contracts to for [TS]

01:28:27   certain lengths of time or something and [TS]

01:28:30   they would be you know wasting their [TS]

01:28:33   money like the ninety nine dollars they [TS]

01:28:35   get even though it's a loss it's better [TS]

01:28:36   than zero and they have to fulfill their [TS]

01:28:38   contracts for manufacturing or whatever [TS]

01:28:39   but the MIT the the big point I would [TS]

01:28:42   have on this thing is the idea that you [TS]

01:28:44   can find some logical explanation for a [TS]

01:28:46   company that we all believe has been [TS]

01:28:47   making terrible moves [TS]

01:28:48   I would question that like who says [TS]

01:28:51   there has to be some reason that makes [TS]

01:28:53   sense [TS]

01:28:53   because all of us disagree with the [TS]

01:28:55   recent moves HP is making so why try to [TS]

01:28:58   come up with an explanation that we [TS]

01:28:59   agree with for making the second run [TS]

01:29:00   maybe this is just another in a long [TS]

01:29:02   line drive decisions by HP as it's one [TS]

01:29:06   of the more convincing explanations that [TS]

01:29:07   I heard don't kill yourself trying to [TS]

01:29:08   think about inventory er or [TS]

01:29:10   manufacturing contracts maybe they just [TS]

01:29:11   do nothing another stupid thing right uh [TS]

01:29:14   I only think it's interesting if they [TS]

01:29:16   reverse course and say we're actually [TS]

01:29:17   going to try to give this webOS thing [TS]

01:29:19   ago yes as far as I know other than the [TS]

01:29:22   stupidity of their public message they [TS]

01:29:24   haven't closed the door on that they [TS]

01:29:25   could you know fire their CEO another [TS]

01:29:28   dramatic possibly stupid move and say no [TS]

01:29:30   actually we're changing course again I [TS]

01:29:31   mean it's at another week another [TS]

01:29:33   strategy for each be the company they [TS]

01:29:35   haven't actually sold off webOS they [TS]

01:29:37   still own it in theory they could change [TS]

01:29:38   their mind but just I get tired even [TS]

01:29:42   thinking about what the hell HP is doing [TS]

01:29:43   they're just they're screwing the pooch [TS]

01:29:45   over there and the the extra HP TouchPad [TS]

01:29:49   thing on ER not really that interested [TS]

01:29:51   in the details that they decide make it [TS]

01:29:53   worthwhile for them to make that unless [TS]

01:29:54   they decide oh we changed your mind [TS]

01:29:56   we're going to make a go webOS again [TS]

01:29:57   that'll start paying attention again but [TS]

01:29:58   in the meantime I'm still rooting for [TS]

01:30:00   somebody else to buy up webOS and [TS]

01:30:02   actually do something decent with it we [TS]

01:30:06   should wrap this up we should but we [TS]

01:30:08   will be back next week yep on FiOS yeah [TS]

01:30:14   well you will be that eliminates 20 20 [TS]

01:30:17   percent of the problem that we were I [TS]

01:30:18   think today will be you back on five ah [TS]

01:30:21   people can go to five by five TV they [TS]

01:30:24   can listen to previous episodes of this [TS]

01:30:26   show which would be nice if they want to [TS]

01:30:29   get caught up you you mentioned episode [TS]

01:30:31   one not a bad place to start yeah all of [TS]

01:30:34   the other shows we do there perhaps [TS]

01:30:35   you'd like those if you're new to five [TS]

01:30:36   by five it's a good way to get caught up [TS]

01:30:40   on what we're all about you can follow [TS]

01:30:42   John siracusa at on Twitter at siracusa [TS]

01:30:46   are you on the Google+ I am okay so how [TS]

01:30:50   do they find that what's the URL good 1 [TS]

01:30:52   4 8 2 3 7 9 6 5 3 2 I don't know stray [TS]

01:30:56   oddly I was too reminded of the episode [TS]

01:30:59   during which data [TS]

01:31:01   commandeered the enterprise in order to [TS]

01:31:03   take it back so that he may actually [TS]

01:31:06   receive the memory chip and he does it [TS]

01:31:07   by locking people alpha of the bridge [TS]

01:31:11   with an impossible code oddly which you [TS]

01:31:14   just quoted back to me it's weird yeah [TS]

01:31:18   weird [TS]

01:31:18   that is weird and then uh you can follow [TS]

01:31:22   me on twitter dan benjamin and we'd like [TS]

01:31:24   to say thanks to audible go to [TS]

01:31:25   audiblepodcast.com/tekzilla we told you [TS]

01:31:29   about field notes brand.com heard it [TS]

01:31:32   from dan those will all be in the show [TS]

01:31:33   notes and and that's it so thanks [TS]

01:31:36   everybody for tuning in and we'll be [TS]

01:31:38   back live and direct next week [TS]

01:31:54   emotion ship [TS]