31: Strong Arguments for and Against


00:00:00   [Music] [TS]

00:00:02   it's hypercritical a weekly talkshow [TS]

00:00:05   ruminating on exactly what is wrong in [TS]

00:00:08   the world of Apple and related [TS]

00:00:10   technologies and businesses nothing is [TS]

00:00:14   so perfect that it can't be complained [TS]

00:00:16   about hypercritical is hosted by John [TS]

00:00:19   siracusa I'm Ryan Ireland sitting in for [TS]

00:00:22   Dan bandwidth for this show is brought [TS]

00:00:25   to you by Midas green tech Virtual [TS]

00:00:28   Private servers submerged in oil get [TS]

00:00:32   free bandwidth today at Midas green tech [TS]

00:00:34   calm / 5x5 we'd also like to thank our [TS]

00:00:39   sponsors for this episode FreshBooks [TS]

00:00:41   comm and source bits comm more about [TS]

00:00:44   them as the show goes on hi John what's [TS]

00:00:48   on the list this week last if you [TS]

00:00:52   mentioned may be talking about markdown [TS]

00:00:54   but we never got to it yeah maybe we [TS]

00:00:55   won't get to it this week you every time [TS]

00:00:57   every time I think I have a topic I want [TS]

00:00:59   to talk about news happens but before we [TS]

00:01:01   get to any news stuff I think we should [TS]

00:01:03   do a little bit of follow up from last [TS]

00:01:05   week so the title of last week's episode [TS]

00:01:08   and one of these stories I relayed [TS]

00:01:11   during the episode was paths in the [TS]

00:01:13   grass and I mentioned that it was a [TS]

00:01:16   story that I had heard originally in I [TS]

00:01:21   think it was a keynote speech and open [TS]

00:01:24   source conference room from Larry wall [TS]

00:01:25   talking about how some university in [TS]

00:01:29   California didn't put in sidewalks but [TS]

00:01:32   just let people walk wherever they [TS]

00:01:33   wanted on the grass and then figured out [TS]

00:01:34   where the trails were worn in the grass [TS]

00:01:36   and then put in sidewalks there and I [TS]

00:01:38   couldn't remember the name of the [TS]

00:01:39   University so I looked it up after the [TS]

00:01:41   show actually I was off what Larry wall [TS]

00:01:44   said and his thing was it was the [TS]

00:01:45   University of California Irvine campus [TS]

00:01:47   that did this and then of course many [TS]

00:01:50   other people said well this you know [TS]

00:01:51   this may just be an urban legend which [TS]

00:01:53   is true with the same story's been [TS]

00:01:55   attributed to many schools maybe many [TS]

00:01:56   schools actually do this and in fact [TS]

00:01:58   there's a name for this type of thing [TS]

00:02:00   it's called the desire path I have their [TS]

00:02:03   Wikipedia link to desire path in the [TS]

00:02:05   show notes so people can look it up but [TS]

00:02:06   apparently this is a common thing and [TS]

00:02:09   who knows where the saying originally [TS]

00:02:12   came from but I just wanted to flesh out [TS]

00:02:13   the backstory of paths in the grass and [TS]

00:02:16   of course I used it back in whatever [TS]

00:02:17   year was 2008 2005 something like that [TS]

00:02:19   to talk about hack sees and that's what [TS]

00:02:21   we talked about on the last show [TS]

00:02:24   another thing we talked about maybe a [TS]

00:02:27   couple shows ago discussing lion but [TS]

00:02:30   when we went down and I discuss the [TS]

00:02:31   scrolling you know that the [TS]

00:02:33   quote-unquote reverse scrolling versus [TS]

00:02:35   natural scrolling and all that business [TS]

00:02:37   I mentioned that no matter what setting [TS]

00:02:39   you put those little checkboxes in [TS]

00:02:41   something feels weird so for example if [TS]

00:02:44   you put it in the pre lion mode like I [TS]

00:02:48   just want it to work like it didn't snow [TS]

00:02:50   leopard okay so you put it in that mode [TS]

00:02:51   it's fine you're using your mouse with [TS]

00:02:53   your mouse wheel or whatever everything [TS]

00:02:54   is exactly as it was in Snow Leopard [TS]

00:02:56   but then when you go to something like [TS]

00:03:00   Mission Control with the put two spaces [TS]

00:03:03   or a launch pad is another good example [TS]

00:03:05   and you try to do a sideways wipe and [TS]

00:03:07   launch pad like so you have a trackpad [TS]

00:03:09   attached or you have a laptop or [TS]

00:03:11   something even in the engine and the [TS]

00:03:12   default not the default even in the old [TS]

00:03:15   style Snow Leopard mode when you do the [TS]

00:03:17   swipe the two fingers swipe or whatever [TS]

00:03:19   it is to go back and forth between [TS]

00:03:20   launch pad screens that feels backwards [TS]

00:03:22   because as soon as you see that big grid [TS]

00:03:24   of icons your brain goes into iOS mode [TS]

00:03:28   and you expect to swipe just like you [TS]

00:03:29   swipe through your home screens on your [TS]

00:03:31   iPhone or whatever but that's not the [TS]

00:03:33   way it works because you said no no I [TS]

00:03:34   want it back the old way so what I was [TS]

00:03:37   saying is that I really really wanted is [TS]

00:03:38   maybe a vertical scrolling to be like it [TS]

00:03:41   is you know in the old days and Snow [TS]

00:03:46   Leopard but horizontal scrolling to be [TS]

00:03:48   in the new style but maybe or maybe I [TS]

00:03:51   want it to be vertical scrolling the old [TS]

00:03:53   way only on my mouse wheel but have it [TS]

00:03:57   be the new way on the touchpad and all [TS]

00:03:58   sorts of combinations like that now I [TS]

00:04:00   made the analogy to first-person shooter [TS]

00:04:02   games we can always do the invert y-axis [TS]

00:04:04   setting right some people like to push [TS]

00:04:07   their mouse the wrong way [TS]

00:04:08   and yes and first-person shooters it [TS]

00:04:09   really is wrong all right and push the [TS]

00:04:11   press the wrong way to make their view [TS]

00:04:13   go up and down so finally there's a [TS]

00:04:15   utility finally that's the yeah that's [TS]

00:04:17   the big thing finally it's been how long [TS]

00:04:19   since line came out almost three weeks [TS]

00:04:21   now there's a great utility called what [TS]

00:04:24   is it called I have to go to the page [TS]

00:04:26   it's got some sort of [TS]

00:04:27   generic name like it's scroll reverser [TS]

00:04:30   for Mac os10 there you go [TS]

00:04:31   generic name but very descriptive and is [TS]

00:04:35   lets you have per axis per device scroll [TS]

00:04:39   Direction reversal because scrolling [TS]

00:04:42   scrolling with the doing natural scoring [TS]

00:04:45   with the scroll wheel on a mouse is [TS]

00:04:46   really strange for people right yeah so [TS]

00:04:49   you can do reverse the vertical reverse [TS]

00:04:51   the horizontal you can reverse the [TS]

00:04:53   trackpad the mouse or the tablet and and [TS]

00:04:56   this utility works on Snow Leopard as [TS]

00:04:58   well as lion so you can decide what you [TS]

00:05:01   think is the most natural combination of [TS]

00:05:03   input devices and scrolling directions [TS]

00:05:05   and then apply that to all your Mac's no [TS]

00:05:07   matter which operating system they're [TS]

00:05:08   running and then just I guess run this [TS]

00:05:10   grow a browser application for the rest [TS]

00:05:12   of your life I don't know there is [TS]

00:05:14   something to be said for finding a way [TS]

00:05:16   to become acclimated with the defaults [TS]

00:05:18   remember how painful that may be simply [TS]

00:05:20   yeah on utility I'm actually a little [TS]

00:05:23   surprised by about how big of an issue [TS]

00:05:26   this has become because I just switched [TS]

00:05:27   and maybe I'm just a maybe I'm just kind [TS]

00:05:32   of a pushover when it comes to this kind [TS]

00:05:33   of stuff but I just switched and it took [TS]

00:05:36   me took me a half hour to get used to to [TS]

00:05:38   the scrolling and everything but [TS]

00:05:39   everything else felt pretty much normal [TS]

00:05:41   to me so it's easy to get used to these [TS]

00:05:44   things like you will become I became [TS]

00:05:45   acclimated to the reverse one just [TS]

00:05:47   playing around with lion you know on and [TS]

00:05:50   off while I was doing my review but that [TS]

00:05:53   the the reason I noticed that I became [TS]

00:05:55   alkylated because I were to go back to [TS]

00:05:57   my normal computer and try to do [TS]

00:05:58   something and the screen will go the [TS]

00:06:00   wrong way because I had got used to the [TS]

00:06:01   other way so having some sort of unified [TS]

00:06:03   direction across all your Mac's but [TS]

00:06:05   they're running Snow Leopard or lion is [TS]

00:06:06   important during this transition period [TS]

00:06:08   because even if you get used to the new [TS]

00:06:09   one then you're just as frustrated [TS]

00:06:10   doubly because you're frustrated when [TS]

00:06:12   you go back to Snow Leopard then you use [TS]

00:06:13   the Snow Leopard you're frustrated when [TS]

00:06:14   you go back to lion and so on and so [TS]

00:06:15   forth so one not possibilities to just [TS]

00:06:19   set it to the Snow Leopard Direction [TS]

00:06:21   everywhere for now until the transition [TS]

00:06:23   is complete and then once all your [TS]

00:06:24   machines at home and at work and every [TS]

00:06:26   Mac you encounter is running lion then [TS]

00:06:29   you can get we used to the new way and [TS]

00:06:31   that'll might take like a day or two I [TS]

00:06:32   think alright well that sounds good for [TS]

00:06:35   for people that are losing sleep about [TS]

00:06:38   scrolling yeah I do like the idea I [TS]

00:06:41   Apple builds us in I do like the idea of [TS]

00:06:43   being able to pick on a per device basis [TS]

00:06:45   which way things should be because the I [TS]

00:06:47   agree was very different from a truck [TS]

00:06:49   touchpad yeah I went in after I [TS]

00:06:51   installed a lion I actually went out to [TS]

00:06:54   the Apple store and bought the trackpad [TS]

00:06:55   because it was just kind of weird to me [TS]

00:06:58   with the with the mouse so yeah well [TS]

00:07:02   that's some that's nice then for for [TS]

00:07:03   people that need a little bit of the the [TS]

00:07:07   more specific settings per per device so [TS]

00:07:11   it's scroll reverse a reverse trackpad [TS]

00:07:14   reverse mouse route this is pretty do [TS]

00:07:17   you think it's something that Apple will [TS]

00:07:18   bei don't build in though eventually you [TS]

00:07:19   think it's or you think there's going to [TS]

00:07:21   let people suffer through the transition [TS]

00:07:22   I think at what Apple believes is that [TS]

00:07:25   the that the mouse will become so so [TS]

00:07:30   much less important as an input device [TS]

00:07:31   already the trackpad is the dominant [TS]

00:07:33   input device for Macs because they sell [TS]

00:07:35   many more laptops than they do desktops [TS]

00:07:38   and laptops don't come with the mouse so [TS]

00:07:39   already [TS]

00:07:40   everything is biased towards well we're [TS]

00:07:42   just going to make it feel right on the [TS]

00:07:43   trackpad and if it doesn't feel right [TS]

00:07:44   with you with your mouse tough luck and [TS]

00:07:46   the mouse even is limited in the in the [TS]

00:07:48   gestures too so it's not that they can't [TS]

00:07:50   support everything and they do have a [TS]

00:07:52   touch Mouse and they do have that touch [TS]

00:07:53   trackpad thing I actually bought a [TS]

00:07:55   trackpad before I started doing my line [TS]

00:07:57   reviews just so I'd be able to [TS]

00:07:58   experience the full swipey swati poe [TS]

00:08:01   nature of the operating system I don't I [TS]

00:08:04   don't like touch pads I'm vastly vastly [TS]

00:08:07   more efficient with a mouse like if you [TS]

00:08:09   did some sort of laboratory experiment [TS]

00:08:11   as they shapes will appear on the screen [TS]

00:08:12   click on them as fast as you can we [TS]

00:08:14   chose an input device I would crush any [TS]

00:08:16   trackpad user with a mouse guaranteed [TS]

00:08:18   because it's it's like playing a [TS]

00:08:20   first-person shooter with someone with a [TS]

00:08:21   mouse and keyboard versus a console [TS]

00:08:24   joystick right you may enjoy one of the [TS]

00:08:26   other and you may be you know it may [TS]

00:08:29   feel more natural to you and that's [TS]

00:08:30   probably what's important if you like [TS]

00:08:32   the trackpad but efficiency wise but [TS]

00:08:35   Syracuse is going to come out with more [TS]

00:08:36   kills is what yeah yeah oh and anybody [TS]

00:08:39   like have you ever met so anyone who [TS]

00:08:42   would claim that they are actually [TS]

00:08:44   better at finding and clicking on [TS]

00:08:47   targets with a trackpad than with the [TS]

00:08:48   mouse I have not but I but [TS]

00:08:52   but I'm comfortable with the with the [TS]

00:08:54   truck yeah now people could be people [TS]

00:08:55   could actually enjoy better than a mouse [TS]

00:08:57   they said well I don't like shuffling [TS]

00:08:58   around this thing but just in terms of [TS]

00:09:00   raw numbers if you're going to figure [TS]

00:09:03   out how much does what is the cognitive [TS]

00:09:04   load of using the trackpad how many [TS]

00:09:06   gestures to take how long does it take [TS]

00:09:11   trackpads or compromise and efficiency [TS]

00:09:13   and if you're someone like me who grew [TS]

00:09:14   up with the mouse I just can't get used [TS]

00:09:17   to the fact that I mean I've got to move [TS]

00:09:20   my finger again to get the cursor over [TS]

00:09:21   there or it's not quite where I wanted [TS]

00:09:23   it to be or just it just doesn't feel as [TS]

00:09:25   relaxing to me to use a trackpad ya know [TS]

00:09:29   to me the trackpad feels more work and [TS]

00:09:33   it almost feels like I could more easily [TS]

00:09:35   injure my my hand using the trackpad for [TS]

00:09:39   long periods of time that I could if I [TS]

00:09:40   was using the mouse do you feel like [TS]

00:09:42   your tendons are under more I do but a [TS]

00:09:44   trackpad right here yeah and I feel like [TS]

00:09:47   I'm using yeah I'm using my fingers in a [TS]

00:09:52   way in you know in repetition in a way [TS]

00:09:55   that I don't I never did with a mouse [TS]

00:09:57   and I wasn't used to I know that you did [TS]

00:09:59   scrolling but you know when with the [TS]

00:10:00   trackpad you're using many more fingers [TS]

00:10:02   and using them a lot more than you would [TS]

00:10:04   especially with with moving the cursor [TS]

00:10:06   around the screen and I have tracking [TS]

00:10:07   set really fast because I hate a [TS]

00:10:09   dragging cursor but but ya know I feel [TS]

00:10:13   like it's more work and actually that's [TS]

00:10:14   my main concern about using the trackpad [TS]

00:10:16   is I'm going to hurt myself because I do [TS]

00:10:20   spend so many hours on the computer and [TS]

00:10:22   the mouse I never felt like it was going [TS]

00:10:27   to injure me because I you know maybe I [TS]

00:10:29   just have good posture when I work but [TS]

00:10:31   the trackpad just always feels like you [TS]

00:10:33   know I'm gonna do something to my [TS]

00:10:34   fingers at some point yeah there's a [TS]

00:10:36   couple a couple of factors working [TS]

00:10:37   against the trackpad one is that since [TS]

00:10:39   it is touch sensitive that is the [TS]

00:10:41   inclination to be afraid to let any part [TS]

00:10:45   of your hand touch it or around it so [TS]

00:10:47   your your whole hand is like poised [TS]

00:10:48   tensely or depending on how what kind of [TS]

00:10:51   person you are poised above the thing [TS]

00:10:53   and you don't want to touch it with the [TS]

00:10:54   other finger so you're keeping your [TS]

00:10:55   other fingers lifted up you're keeping [TS]

00:10:57   your hand away from it your hand is not [TS]

00:10:58   relaxed you're kind of hovering it over [TS]

00:11:00   they just letting the finger that you [TS]

00:11:02   want touch it now you could find a [TS]

00:11:04   comfortable position with some party [TS]

00:11:06   and resting around the trackpad where [TS]

00:11:08   that's not necessary but the fact is [TS]

00:11:10   that people do feel a little bit of that [TS]

00:11:11   tension some people feel out on mice too [TS]

00:11:13   if you watch a novice user using a mouse [TS]

00:11:15   they'll be afraid to touch the button [TS]

00:11:17   part they won't rest their hand on the [TS]

00:11:18   mouse the way an experienced mouse user [TS]

00:11:20   will but I find that more problem with [TS]

00:11:22   trackpads ii is with the glass trackpad [TS]

00:11:24   that apple's added instead of having a [TS]

00:11:26   separate button the whole thing is a [TS]

00:11:28   button but it's still generally hinged [TS]

00:11:30   on one edge so you have much more [TS]

00:11:32   mechanical advantage pressing the [TS]

00:11:35   trackpad down towards the edge that's [TS]

00:11:37   farthest away from the hinge so if [TS]

00:11:40   you're going to to click the trackpad [TS]

00:11:43   there's a tendency for experienced [TS]

00:11:45   trackpad users to use their thumb on [TS]

00:11:47   where the button used to be ah but [TS]

00:11:50   they're also the option when you condor [TS]

00:11:52   that no-man's land of like well maybe I [TS]

00:11:53   could just press down with the finger [TS]

00:11:56   that I have that I've been moving the [TS]

00:11:57   cursor with because I'm close enough to [TS]

00:11:59   where the button region used to be but [TS]

00:12:01   you have to press harder because you're [TS]

00:12:03   not really down as far as you thought [TS]

00:12:04   you are it's it's an awkward and kind of [TS]

00:12:07   it's simplified from a hardware design [TS]

00:12:09   perspective you can see what Apple likes [TS]

00:12:10   it no more button it's just the whole [TS]

00:12:11   thing is a button but it's kind of [TS]

00:12:14   strange in terms of the clicking [TS]

00:12:15   experience that the trackpad the [TS]

00:12:18   trackpad on the desktop is like that too [TS]

00:12:19   because on the desktop one the little [TS]

00:12:21   feet at the bottom or the clicky [TS]

00:12:22   triggers right and if you're pressing [TS]

00:12:24   down at the bottom edge you get good [TS]

00:12:26   your force transfer as well to the [TS]

00:12:28   little clicky feet but if you're [TS]

00:12:29   pressing down to the top edge it's much [TS]

00:12:31   harder to make the thing tilt and [TS]

00:12:33   pushing the little clicky feet thing [TS]

00:12:36   it's hard to explain but I think [TS]

00:12:38   anyone's use the trackpad has [TS]

00:12:39   experienced the difference in in terms [TS]

00:12:43   of how much effort and thought is [TS]

00:12:44   required for that now there are some [TS]

00:12:46   people who haven't used mice and I've [TS]

00:12:48   only used track bites and they're [TS]

00:12:49   perhaps much more expert than us people [TS]

00:12:52   who grew up with mice but I still feel [TS]

00:12:53   like on the mouse once you become [TS]

00:12:55   accustomed to it there's a clear place [TS]

00:12:57   to grip the mouse while maybe not an [TS]

00:12:59   apples mice button the third party mice [TS]

00:13:00   is a clear place to grip it is a clear [TS]

00:13:01   place to rest your hand and the buttons [TS]

00:13:03   you're always pressing them in the most [TS]

00:13:05   mechanically advantageous position [TS]

00:13:07   because your fingers kind of hang off [TS]

00:13:09   towards the edge and the front edges are [TS]

00:13:10   where you want to click on a good Mouse [TS]

00:13:12   and it's just there's no questioning [TS]

00:13:15   where your hand is or where your fingers [TS]

00:13:17   are where the hinges or whether you [TS]

00:13:19   should you know hold [TS]

00:13:20   with your thumb and press same thing we [TS]

00:13:21   like clicking and dragging clicking the [TS]

00:13:22   dragon with the mouse is much more [TS]

00:13:23   natural it's like grip and move your [TS]

00:13:25   hand whereas on a trackpad you're like [TS]

00:13:26   well I have to press down and drag but [TS]

00:13:29   if I chose to press down with my pointer [TS]

00:13:31   finger that I was going to do the drag [TS]

00:13:33   with now it's weird so I should really [TS]

00:13:34   press down with my thumb where the [TS]

00:13:35   button used to be and drag with the [TS]

00:13:36   pointer finger but then I can't lift [TS]

00:13:38   that pointer finger up or it's like I'm [TS]

00:13:39   you know am i stopping the drag of that [TS]

00:13:42   point actually I can't lift my finger up [TS]

00:13:44   as long as I keep my thumb down there's [TS]

00:13:45   lots of finger gymnastics involved in in [TS]

00:13:47   track pads that I find unsettling uh all [TS]

00:13:50   which is not to say that track guides [TS]

00:13:52   are bad they're way better than I think [TS]

00:13:53   the alternatives like track balls for [TS]

00:13:57   regular people regular people know how [TS]

00:13:58   to just swipe it's tough but the mouse [TS]

00:14:00   man just feels so much more efficient to [TS]

00:14:03   me and actually is and I would I would [TS]

00:14:04   put that up against it there's someone [TS]

00:14:05   out there who thinks that they could in [TS]

00:14:07   a laboratory targeting test of like [TS]

00:14:10   finding and clicking on targets on a [TS]

00:14:12   computer screen could outdo either [TS]

00:14:15   themselves with a mouse versus trackpad [TS]

00:14:17   or you know the best Mouser in the world [TS]

00:14:19   versus the best trackpad in the world [TS]

00:14:20   I'd love to hear that I don't know how [TS]

00:14:22   to test it but I'd like to know if [TS]

00:14:24   someone thinks that that's possible that [TS]

00:14:25   they really are more efficient with the [TS]

00:14:26   trackpad all right the challenge has [TS]

00:14:29   been issued we'll see Vinny can come up [TS]

00:14:31   with anything maybe some will write an [TS]

00:14:32   application like a mouse click e testing [TS]

00:14:34   application where it'll put up little [TS]

00:14:36   things you have to click on them it's [TS]

00:14:37   kind of like the icon factory game [TS]

00:14:39   picking time you've ever played that I [TS]

00:14:41   have not I should put that in the show [TS]

00:14:43   notes that see it it's a game for iOS [TS]

00:14:46   which is a very different experiences [TS]

00:14:48   when you're touching the screen that's [TS]

00:14:49   an instance where screen touching should [TS]

00:14:51   be able to crush any Mouse person [TS]

00:14:53   because you don't have to move the mouse [TS]

00:14:54   over those you're literally your finger [TS]

00:14:55   when you see the thing you clean it so [TS]

00:14:56   picking time put pops up images of [TS]

00:14:59   fruits and vegetables on the screen and [TS]

00:15:01   the game is who can tap on them the [TS]

00:15:04   fastest so you can either play [TS]

00:15:05   single-player and it just times you or [TS]

00:15:07   multiple player on the same thing and I [TS]

00:15:09   think you both have to try tap them [TS]

00:15:10   thing as fast as you can so it's [TS]

00:15:11   basically an image will appear on the [TS]

00:15:13   screen [TS]

00:15:14   hope there's a fruit and tap on it as [TS]

00:15:15   fast as you can with your finger and [TS]

00:15:16   they appear in different spots at [TS]

00:15:17   different sizes and there are decoy ones [TS]

00:15:19   and all sorts of the things you would [TS]

00:15:20   expect that would actually be a good [TS]

00:15:23   test application if only it existed on [TS]

00:15:25   the Mac where you could do with a [TS]

00:15:27   trackpad do with the mouse and then [TS]

00:15:28   compare it to doing it on an iPad or an [TS]

00:15:30   iPhone with your finger I would have to [TS]

00:15:31   think that fingers would crush everybody [TS]

00:15:32   there because [TS]

00:15:33   in direction see the thing tap on it as [TS]

00:15:35   fast as you can and that apps already [TS]

00:15:37   written [TS]

00:15:38   well maybe me everybody go out and buy [TS]

00:15:42   picking time yeah I'm winning it up on [TS]

00:15:44   my phone right now I did not know about [TS]

00:15:46   that one it sounds it's fun kids like to [TS]

00:15:50   play it do and I don't I don't remember [TS]

00:15:52   what the shared mode is like I was a [TS]

00:15:54   beta tester for way back when I think [TS]

00:15:56   there is a shared mode where two people [TS]

00:15:58   try to tap the screen at the same time [TS]

00:16:00   all those games make me think that kids [TS]

00:16:03   somewhere or adult somewhere kind of [TS]

00:16:04   breaking their iOS devices because [TS]

00:16:06   they're jamming their fingers some of [TS]

00:16:07   the glass screen as hard as they can you [TS]

00:16:08   know while playing the game alright huh [TS]

00:16:12   a little more follow but I'll save it [TS]

00:16:14   for next week we should move on to some [TS]

00:16:17   main topics what's on the docket for [TS]

00:16:20   today mister siracusa like I said I had [TS]

00:16:23   marked down it was on the top looking [TS]

00:16:25   forward to it all week until I started [TS]

00:16:28   going back through I said well what else [TS]

00:16:29   happened this week now I always feel [TS]

00:16:31   like I don't know why but when my show [TS]

00:16:33   is during the week I feel like the other [TS]

00:16:34   shows get to talk about the news of the [TS]

00:16:36   week before I do and by the time I get [TS]

00:16:38   to it it's all played out like I never [TS]

00:16:40   really talked about patents on the show [TS]

00:16:41   because when all the patent stuff was [TS]

00:16:43   happening build and analyze and the talk [TS]

00:16:46   show both discuss patents and then by [TS]

00:16:48   the time it came time for me to record [TS]

00:16:50   like well they said everything already [TS]

00:16:52   so the HP I never talked about the [TS]

00:16:55   Motorola Google thing the HP thing I [TS]

00:16:58   never talked about both were discussed [TS]

00:17:00   on build and analyzing the talk show I [TS]

00:17:02   want to talk about them a little bit but [TS]

00:17:04   before that there's something else that [TS]

00:17:05   popped up on my radar I could was [TS]

00:17:08   earlier today you know Robert X cringe [TS]

00:17:13   Lee Bob cringe Lee that's not actually [TS]

00:17:14   the real name but he's a fairly [TS]

00:17:17   well-known famous tech writer the [TS]

00:17:21   pseudonym Robert X cringe Lee has this [TS]

00:17:23   interesting history behind that you [TS]

00:17:24   should look it up on the Wikipedia page [TS]

00:17:25   to see how that's worked but the person [TS]

00:17:28   with ownership of that name now writes [TS]

00:17:29   lots of stuff about Apple and the [TS]

00:17:31   technology world and stuff like that and [TS]

00:17:33   I read his stuff and in general he tends [TS]

00:17:36   towards crazy conspiracy theories and [TS]

00:17:38   sensationalism but I find that fun I [TS]

00:17:41   don't fault him for it if you read him [TS]

00:17:43   understanding who he is or where he's [TS]

00:17:44   coming from I'm [TS]

00:17:46   I'm game for some crazy conspiracy [TS]

00:17:47   theories every once in a while and I [TS]

00:17:49   think he's self-aware enough to realize [TS]

00:17:51   that's what he does sometimes just [TS]

00:17:53   because it's fun [TS]

00:17:53   so his article this week was entitled is [TS]

00:17:58   the Mac Pro dead which I think has been [TS]

00:18:02   talked about on previous shows but this [TS]

00:18:04   is fed by some new extremely vague [TS]

00:18:07   rumors so I think this is on Japanese [TS]

00:18:08   website that somebody Google translated [TS]

00:18:10   that ended up going to an American [TS]

00:18:12   rumors website and so on and so forth [TS]

00:18:14   describing some supposed upcoming new [TS]

00:18:17   Macs they're like nothing no max that [TS]

00:18:19   have existed before I don't these rumors [TS]

00:18:21   are so vague that they're ridiculous [TS]

00:18:22   basically idea is there will be a new [TS]

00:18:24   back and it will be different and [TS]

00:18:25   different meaning I guess it's not a Mac [TS]

00:18:28   Mini an iMac or Mac Pro or maybe it is [TS]

00:18:30   one of those things but the case looks [TS]

00:18:32   different god only knows this rumor is [TS]

00:18:33   so vague that's pointless to even [TS]

00:18:34   discuss it [TS]

00:18:35   so as cringe Lee says in his review I'm [TS]

00:18:37   going to quote a section here he was [TS]

00:18:39   talking about how that the Mac minis [TS]

00:18:41   were updated recently but the Mac pros [TS]

00:18:42   weren't and he says the Mac pros haven't [TS]

00:18:44   been updated since last summer and [TS]

00:18:45   here's the quote new Mac models were [TS]

00:18:47   expected this month with the new minis [TS]

00:18:49   but for some reason the new Mac pros [TS]

00:18:50   failed to appear Apple said nothing [TS]

00:18:52   because well Apple never says anything [TS]

00:18:53   instead relying on dopes like me to [TS]

00:18:55   write non stories like this one which is [TS]

00:18:58   100% true you know but hey we all want [TS]

00:19:01   to talk about all right the reason I [TS]

00:19:02   think this is interesting to discuss now [TS]

00:19:04   is I think whether or not this rumor has [TS]

00:19:10   any foundation in fact it could like [TS]

00:19:14   it's plausible [TS]

00:19:15   the reasoning makes some vague kind of [TS]

00:19:17   sense and not the kind of sense that [TS]

00:19:18   like the ex Mac makes where I talked [TS]

00:19:20   about that in past shows where everybody [TS]

00:19:21   wants the Mac that fulfills exactly [TS]

00:19:23   their needs [TS]

00:19:23   it doesn't include anything they don't [TS]

00:19:25   want to buy includes only things they do [TS]

00:19:26   want to buy and it's super cheap and [TS]

00:19:28   blah blah blah and Apple is not [TS]

00:19:29   interested in making that for geeks [TS]

00:19:31   anyway because they would rather have a [TS]

00:19:33   geek spend more for a Mac Pro if they [TS]

00:19:34   want the extra stuff I think it's worth [TS]

00:19:38   reviewing why it is that I like a Mac [TS]

00:19:41   Pro cuz I'm a Mac Pro guy I've always [TS]

00:19:43   had Mac pros Power Mac g5 s the Mac [TS]

00:19:46   towers I've always been that type of guy [TS]

00:19:48   and the reasons are pretty simple for me [TS]

00:19:51   personally it's one I want a good [TS]

00:19:52   graphics card so I can play games and [TS]

00:19:54   Apple has always put crappy or not as [TS]

00:19:58   good graphic cards and it's [TS]

00:19:59   laptops and even in the iMac they've [TS]

00:20:01   been getting much better over the years [TS]

00:20:02   the current best iMac graphics card is [TS]

00:20:05   actually not embarrassing but you can [TS]

00:20:08   still get higher-end graphics card for [TS]

00:20:10   the Mac Pro big full-length things with [TS]

00:20:11   their own fans on them sometimes they [TS]

00:20:13   take up two slots that big honkin gaming [TS]

00:20:15   Monster Cards you can only get in the [TS]

00:20:17   tower Macs and I like to play games [TS]

00:20:19   that's why I want that yeah I have a so [TS]

00:20:21   I bought the Mac Pro it's the latest one [TS]

00:20:24   that came out last summer and I think I [TS]

00:20:27   got it I think you know like I got it [TS]

00:20:29   just a couple weeks after it came out [TS]

00:20:30   and and you know I agree that now I was [TS]

00:20:33   always hesitant to buy the the Mac Pro [TS]

00:20:36   because it is it's big physically so it [TS]

00:20:39   takes up a lot of space and it can [TS]

00:20:41   generate some heat as well and but the [TS]

00:20:45   advantage to me and I think maybe a lot [TS]

00:20:46   of people are maybe when they think [TS]

00:20:48   about the Mac Pro and what Apple is [TS]

00:20:50   going to do might be missing some use [TS]

00:20:52   cases for it because maybe they don't [TS]

00:20:54   use Mac Pro's attorny Mac Pro's but for [TS]

00:20:56   me it was all about expansion especially [TS]

00:20:58   you know hard drive so the there's four [TS]

00:21:00   bays in the Mac Pro and that's you know [TS]

00:21:03   that's a big deal if you're dealing with [TS]

00:21:04   a lot of data something like you know [TS]

00:21:05   what Dan does with five by five with a [TS]

00:21:07   lot of recording of video and audio or [TS]

00:21:09   you know I do Final Cut stuff and I'm [TS]

00:21:14   interested to see what what Apple does [TS]

00:21:16   but to me sometimes these rumors kind of [TS]

00:21:19   miss out on actual you know why people [TS]

00:21:21   use the devices yeah that was those my [TS]

00:21:24   second point is that in addition to the [TS]

00:21:26   graphics card cheap internal storage [TS]

00:21:28   usually it's internal hard drive [TS]

00:21:31   mechanisms are so much cheaper than [TS]

00:21:33   buying an external drive is not even [TS]

00:21:34   funny as and it's getting worse [TS]

00:21:36   it's really hard I've recently been [TS]

00:21:38   trying to find an external hard drive [TS]

00:21:39   because I'm trying to find another [TS]

00:21:41   external hard drive to back up my wife's [TS]

00:21:43   laptop too and I did I asked on Twitter [TS]

00:21:45   you know does anyone have a good [TS]

00:21:47   external hard drive they can suggest and [TS]

00:21:49   the end result of about a week of [TS]

00:21:51   research was that I don't have any [TS]

00:21:53   better options than I previously had and [TS]

00:21:55   the problems with with external hard [TS]

00:21:56   drives are generally the big one is they [TS]

00:21:58   tend to have cruddy power supplies like [TS]

00:22:00   they have some sort of power brick or [TS]

00:22:02   sometimes they have it a small internal [TS]

00:22:03   power supply but the quality of those [TS]

00:22:04   components is really really low and [TS]

00:22:06   failures of these external hard drives [TS]

00:22:08   in the least of my family's experience [TS]

00:22:11   my extended family's experience it's [TS]

00:22:13   always [TS]

00:22:13   stupid power supply whether it's the [TS]

00:22:14   internal circuitry that's the older [TS]

00:22:16   power supply or the external one they go [TS]

00:22:18   bad they're made but the lowest bidder [TS]

00:22:20   in some Asian country they are not high [TS]

00:22:23   quality products and having them break [TS]

00:22:25   and you know that can cause you just [TS]

00:22:27   know that your that your disc isn't [TS]

00:22:29   responding and you're terrified for your [TS]

00:22:30   data or maybe if the thing dived in the [TS]

00:22:31   middle of doing a right you're actually [TS]

00:22:33   corrupting some part of the disc and [TS]

00:22:34   it's just it's such you know [TS]

00:22:36   Pennywise pound-foolish decision to go [TS]

00:22:39   with cheap power supplies but everybody [TS]

00:22:41   does because it's cut through a business [TS]

00:22:42   and the cases themselves tend to have [TS]

00:22:44   cheap construction because again every [TS]

00:22:46   penny counts so even if they look fancy [TS]

00:22:48   and they're made of aluminum or they try [TS]

00:22:49   to look like apples design it's not the [TS]

00:22:50   same as apples design if you compare any [TS]

00:22:53   of these cases even the super expensive [TS]

00:22:55   ones to an actual piece of Apple [TS]

00:22:58   hardware like a MacBook Air or even a [TS]

00:23:00   Mac Pro case or anything like that you [TS]

00:23:02   can see the difference in quality it's [TS]

00:23:03   thinner metal it's not as well machined [TS]

00:23:05   it's certainly not laser carved like the [TS]

00:23:07   little microscopic holes that they have [TS]

00:23:09   on the their laptops and stuff like that [TS]

00:23:11   and the cheap cases the insides are [TS]

00:23:13   cheap too is just metal on metal that [TS]

00:23:16   that makes it so that when you bolt your [TS]

00:23:17   hard drive into there the vibration from [TS]

00:23:19   the hard drive transfers through the [TS]

00:23:20   case one case I have which some people [TS]

00:23:22   actually recommended and I had bought it [TS]

00:23:24   was a other world computing thing and it [TS]

00:23:26   looks reasonably decent but when you [TS]

00:23:28   stick a hard drive in it and put it on a [TS]

00:23:30   flat surface the thing doesn't have any [TS]

00:23:32   feet or any rubber insulation anywhere [TS]

00:23:34   inside it so it vibrates and makes noise [TS]

00:23:38   and that noise transfers through the [TS]

00:23:40   case to the surface you're on so then [TS]

00:23:41   kind of like buzzes or hums kind of like [TS]

00:23:44   when a cellphone is on a hard table and [TS]

00:23:45   it starts doing the vibrate ring it does [TS]

00:23:47   that constantly and not as loud as that [TS]

00:23:49   but a similar type noise and if you what [TS]

00:23:54   I'm Louis looking for is to buy a [TS]

00:23:55   separate enclosure because then I can [TS]

00:23:57   pick my hard drive because it's third [TS]

00:23:59   party cell external hard drives with the [TS]

00:24:03   mechanism already in it but you don't [TS]

00:24:04   get to pick what kind of hard drive is [TS]

00:24:06   they just say you know one terabyte hard [TS]

00:24:08   drive and the geek in me wants to know [TS]

00:24:10   great which one terabyte all right I was [TS]

00:24:12   in there because you know you're [TS]

00:24:14   charging me $200 for an external one [TS]

00:24:16   terabyte hard drive but I can buy a one [TS]

00:24:18   terabyte hard drive mechanism for 90 [TS]

00:24:19   bucks and I can pick the exact mechanism [TS]

00:24:21   I want and be sure that it's well [TS]

00:24:22   reviewed it's the best one out there and [TS]

00:24:24   has good reliability a lot of stuff I [TS]

00:24:25   don't want your mystery meat hard drive [TS]

00:24:27   inside your crappy case attached to your [TS]

00:24:29   crappy power supply for triple the price [TS]

00:24:31   or double the price or whatever of [TS]

00:24:32   course the problem with enclosures is [TS]

00:24:34   that at this point an enclosure that's [TS]

00:24:36   not the very bottom of the barrel it's [TS]

00:24:38   starting to be the same price as the one [TS]

00:24:40   terabyte hard drive it's like 50 60 70 [TS]

00:24:42   bucks or more for the quote unquote [TS]

00:24:43   fancier cases for just the case just [TS]

00:24:46   with your cruddy power supply your your [TS]

00:24:48   hopefully nice oxford chipset for your [TS]

00:24:51   firewire or USB interface or ever you [TS]

00:24:53   have in there serial ata on the inside [TS]

00:24:55   no hard drive in it 80 bucks for [TS]

00:24:58   something that store zero bytes of data [TS]

00:24:59   and then you have to buy your $80 or $90 [TS]

00:25:01   or more hard drive and stick it in there [TS]

00:25:03   and that starts pushing up against the [TS]

00:25:05   price of an external 1 terabyte hard [TS]

00:25:07   drive that you could buy for two hundred [TS]

00:25:08   and something or 179 or whatever it used [TS]

00:25:10   to be much more economical to buy the [TS]

00:25:12   cases when hard drives cost more you'd [TS]

00:25:14   buy one case and the theory was every [TS]

00:25:16   time the bigger hard drive come out you [TS]

00:25:17   take the old hard drive mechanism and [TS]

00:25:18   put the new one in there but that hasn't [TS]

00:25:20   worked out for me that well in practice [TS]

00:25:22   because parallel ata gave way to serial [TS]

00:25:24   ata and now there are some things that [TS]

00:25:26   need serial ata to to be fast enough and [TS]

00:25:28   of course firewire is giving away the [TS]

00:25:29   Thunderbolt and all this stuff so that [TS]

00:25:33   whole situation the external hard drive [TS]

00:25:35   situation is just a big mess and it's so [TS]

00:25:37   much nicer to have for internal slots [TS]

00:25:39   and not to deal with that and just go to [TS]

00:25:40   storage recom find what the best desktop [TS]

00:25:43   hard drive is with your power noise and [TS]

00:25:45   heat specs or whatever you're interested [TS]

00:25:47   in and performance numbers by exactly [TS]

00:25:49   the mechanisms you want get the bare [TS]

00:25:52   mechanism from the cheapest place you [TS]

00:25:53   can find get it from new way get it from [TS]

00:25:55   Amazon get anywhere you want and just [TS]

00:25:56   slap it in there no cables though power [TS]

00:26:00   connectors no nothing just sticks right [TS]

00:26:01   in the macro and that's the way to go [TS]

00:26:03   yep and an Apple the weird thing is that [TS]

00:26:06   Apple sells third-party external hard [TS]

00:26:08   drives in its Apple stores or at least [TS]

00:26:09   did the last time I was in there which [TS]

00:26:11   seems weird to me because generally [TS]

00:26:14   Apple doesn't like to sell other [TS]

00:26:17   hardware things I think even the [TS]

00:26:19   printers are gone now or the printers [TS]

00:26:20   gone from Apple stars I haven't I don't [TS]

00:26:23   remember the last time I was there I'm [TS]

00:26:24   actually going to the to the Apple store [TS]

00:26:25   this afternoon but I don't remember but [TS]

00:26:28   they definitely do still sell hard [TS]

00:26:29   drives in fact they've they've always [TS]

00:26:30   had the like a whole display unit with [TS]

00:26:32   with all these external hard drives yeah [TS]

00:26:36   well like for printers there used to be [TS]

00:26:37   way more printers I'm knowing an Apple [TS]

00:26:39   stores than that [TS]

00:26:40   are now so the same the external [TS]

00:26:42   hard-drives it's like well we have these [TS]

00:26:43   gorgeous computers and all this nice [TS]

00:26:46   hardware and yeah we have an accessory [TS]

00:26:47   I'll for cases and all sorts of other [TS]

00:26:49   little things but it's not like they're [TS]

00:26:53   you know it's kind of like they're they [TS]

00:26:55   want you to buy a nice beautiful MacBook [TS]

00:26:57   Air and then attach it to this ugly [TS]

00:26:58   third-party external hard drive for 200 [TS]

00:27:00   and something bucks it just seems weird [TS]

00:27:03   to me that they would have then it so [TS]

00:27:04   Apple doesn't make their own external [TS]

00:27:07   hard drives they used to way back in a [TS]

00:27:08   day but they don't make their own but [TS]

00:27:10   they feel like people need them enough [TS]

00:27:11   for a time machine and stuff like that [TS]

00:27:13   that they sell them in their store they [TS]

00:27:14   do some time capsule which is all Apple [TS]

00:27:16   sleek and everything and you do your [TS]

00:27:17   backups to it and stuff like that so I [TS]

00:27:18   think Apple would prefer that you buy [TS]

00:27:20   that but if you really want to buy this [TS]

00:27:21   ugly box with this cruddy external power [TS]

00:27:22   supply that doesn't really match in and [TS]

00:27:25   the case in the heart or doesn't really [TS]

00:27:26   match any of our hardware and attach it [TS]

00:27:27   to your Mac then you know go nuts don't [TS]

00:27:30   bother us when it breaks because it's [TS]

00:27:32   not our product and we don't warranty it [TS]

00:27:34   so that's that's why I buy a Mac Pro [TS]

00:27:37   node there are many other reasons other [TS]

00:27:39   people buy Mac Pro's because they [TS]

00:27:40   actually fill all the card slots not [TS]

00:27:41   with fancy video cards but with other [TS]

00:27:43   kinds of cards raid cards or you know [TS]

00:27:46   fiber channel cards or God knows what [TS]

00:27:48   else people are putting is out there for [TS]

00:27:49   video production and stuff like that [TS]

00:27:51   multiple disease is another reason as [TS]

00:27:53   well yeah you can put you know three [TS]

00:27:55   video guards in there and each one [TS]

00:27:57   supports two displays you can have some [TS]

00:27:58   blind you know there are reasons to buy [TS]

00:28:00   a Mac Pro beyond the few that I happen [TS]

00:28:03   to get I'm a rarity I'm not I don't [TS]

00:28:04   think I'm the main consumer for a Mac [TS]

00:28:06   Pro but basically for any gamer who [TS]

00:28:08   wants to buy a Mac you know they're just [TS]

00:28:10   going to use it as a PC rather it's [TS]

00:28:11   going to boot into Windows if you want a [TS]

00:28:13   good video card you have to buy this big [TS]

00:28:15   hunking tower that maybe you only ever [TS]

00:28:17   fills hard drive slots or actually I [TS]

00:28:19   have the Mac Pro step two optical bays [TS]

00:28:20   obstacles are going the way of the dodo [TS]

00:28:22   but I have both my obstacle base ville [TS]

00:28:24   just because it was so cheap I said oh [TS]

00:28:25   no why not why not have two in there [TS]

00:28:27   maybe burn two optical discs at once or [TS]

00:28:30   have two disks in the drive or if games [TS]

00:28:32   that require that just to be in the [TS]

00:28:33   drive back in the day but yeah those [TS]

00:28:36   optical drives are going away so that's [TS]

00:28:37   another reason that the Mac Pro doesn't [TS]

00:28:39   you know you could take out those two [TS]

00:28:40   optical drives and put two more hard [TS]

00:28:41   drives there are three more hard drives [TS]

00:28:42   there or you can make the case smaller [TS]

00:28:44   or whatever so this rumor about the Mac [TS]

00:28:46   Pro going away if you let's just assume [TS]

00:28:50   that there is some actual basis in fact [TS]

00:28:53   for this rumor which [TS]

00:28:54   is doubtful that that's true but if you [TS]

00:28:57   were to assume that there is some crews [TS]

00:28:58   behind you could say well maybe they're [TS]

00:29:00   just making the Mac Pro smaller because [TS]

00:29:01   if you ditch one or more the optical [TS]

00:29:03   drives and you and use maybe a little [TS]

00:29:06   bit lower power CPUs or fewer CPUs or [TS]

00:29:10   maybe just have a single slot model and [TS]

00:29:11   no more dual CPU model you could shrink [TS]

00:29:14   that case substantially while still [TS]

00:29:16   allowing a video card and maybe two or [TS]

00:29:18   three you know it would be bigger it [TS]

00:29:20   would be manually upgradable like the [TS]

00:29:22   Mac Pro be bigger than a Mac Mini but it [TS]

00:29:24   wouldn't have a built-in monitor like an [TS]

00:29:26   iMac and that's kind of encroaching on X [TS]

00:29:29   Mac territory but only encroaches the [TS]

00:29:30   next Mac territory to make it cheaper [TS]

00:29:32   what if they kept the price is the same [TS]

00:29:33   or even made it more expensive and just [TS]

00:29:35   made the case smaller then it would [TS]

00:29:37   maybe they didn't call it a Mac Pro [TS]

00:29:38   anymore who knows what they would call [TS]

00:29:39   it or maybe they do call it a Mac Pro [TS]

00:29:40   all people are confused because the case [TS]

00:29:42   looks different I don't know take a [TS]

00:29:44   quick break and talk about our first [TS]

00:29:46   sponsor for this episode of hyper [TS]

00:29:47   critical we want to thank fresh books [TS]

00:29:50   fresh books is an easy-to-use online [TS]

00:29:53   invoicing service that not only saves [TS]

00:29:56   you time but it gets you paid faster and [TS]

00:29:58   you know it's also important that you [TS]

00:30:00   look professional and did you know that [TS]

00:30:03   getting started with fresh books is [TS]

00:30:04   completely free you just go to fresh [TS]

00:30:06   books calm and you sign up for an [TS]

00:30:08   account it's free there's there's really [TS]

00:30:10   nothing nothing else you need to do so [TS]

00:30:13   there's no reason to try out fresh books [TS]

00:30:15   so here's something cool that they are [TS]

00:30:17   doing for five-by-five listeners and [TS]

00:30:18   they've been doing this for a while now [TS]

00:30:19   and a lot of people have been ending up [TS]

00:30:22   with birthday cakes [TS]

00:30:24   that's because fresh books is actually [TS]

00:30:26   giving away a birthday cake every week [TS]

00:30:28   to somebody that signs up from this show [TS]

00:30:31   all you need to do to get a chance to [TS]

00:30:33   win your own birthday cake is to be sure [TS]

00:30:35   you enter the show name so you make sure [TS]

00:30:37   you enter hypercritical and the how did [TS]

00:30:40   you hear about us section when you sign [TS]

00:30:42   up and you know it doesn't even have to [TS]

00:30:44   be your birthday to win but who doesn't [TS]

00:30:46   love birthday cake I know I love [TS]

00:30:48   birthday cake mostly the icing all right [TS]

00:30:51   so go ahead and check out fresh [TS]

00:30:52   ebooks.com and hey you might actually [TS]

00:30:54   enjoy invoicing and we thank fresh books [TS]

00:30:57   for supporting hypercritical but the Mac [TS]

00:31:00   Pros have a lot of a lot of empty space [TS]

00:31:04   in them and [TS]

00:31:06   you know I'm assuming that's for proper [TS]

00:31:09   air flow so that these things can run [TS]

00:31:10   you know cool and quiet [TS]

00:31:12   well it's only empty if you don't put [TS]

00:31:14   stuff there like you know what this beds [TS]

00:31:17   there well not even the hard drives and [TS]

00:31:19   I don't have it open right now but I [TS]

00:31:20   mean I guess everything is is there's [TS]

00:31:23   room to collapse it down and and I don't [TS]

00:31:26   know how much room there is though if [TS]

00:31:27   you leave everything in there because [TS]

00:31:28   mine is pretty well stuffed I've got [TS]

00:31:30   dual CPUs I've got the four hard drives [TS]

00:31:32   I've got one card slot filled so if I [TS]

00:31:34   fill the other two card slots the card [TS]

00:31:35   Bay is pretty much filled okay there's [TS]

00:31:37   not much room in there around the place [TS]

00:31:40   for the CPU cooling used to be more [TS]

00:31:43   filled than it was when it was like g5s [TS]

00:31:45   because the g5s needed more cooling now [TS]

00:31:46   the heat sinks are more of a reasonable [TS]

00:31:48   size but they've mostly filled that spot [TS]

00:31:50   with making the fans a little bit bigger [TS]

00:31:53   you know I guess maybe you could shrink [TS]

00:31:56   it depth wise by several inches to [TS]

00:31:59   remove the air gap between the front fan [TS]

00:32:01   and before you hit the heatsink the [TS]

00:32:04   optical drive seemed like a clear win [TS]

00:32:06   because they're they're filling their [TS]

00:32:07   spots up there and now but who needs the [TS]

00:32:09   optical drives ditch those right or just [TS]

00:32:10   have one optical drive or have no [TS]

00:32:12   optical drives and sell an external or [TS]

00:32:14   something you could save a lot of space [TS]

00:32:15   there so I think people who pack their [TS]

00:32:18   Mac Pro's to the gills the amount of [TS]

00:32:20   cubic inches that could be reclaimed by [TS]

00:32:23   rearranging internal components is [TS]

00:32:25   significant enough to make the case [TS]

00:32:26   smaller but it's not like the just [TS]

00:32:28   there's nothing going on in there and [TS]

00:32:30   yeah but especially with the slots you [TS]

00:32:33   have to accommodate a full length PCI [TS]

00:32:35   Express card even if you're never going [TS]

00:32:37   to put a full length one in there just [TS]

00:32:39   accommodating half length would kind of [TS]

00:32:41   negate the purpose of the Mac Pro right [TS]

00:32:43   now all right so the Mac Pro the design [TS]

00:32:45   is old right I think I think cringe Lee [TS]

00:32:48   makes this this this argument as well is [TS]

00:32:52   that I think he says it's eight years [TS]

00:32:53   old is I think it sounds about right [TS]

00:32:54   right the external design even that's [TS]

00:32:56   not strictly true because the external [TS]

00:32:58   design they've changed where the holes [TS]

00:33:00   are for all the ports but the cheese [TS]

00:33:01   grater the cheese grater design though [TS]

00:33:03   is yeah yeah the overall shape of the [TS]

00:33:05   case has been the same like if you were [TS]

00:33:07   to look for in profile I think it's been [TS]

00:33:08   identical but they have changed the [TS]

00:33:09   where the ports are on which ports are [TS]

00:33:12   in the front and where the ports are on [TS]

00:33:14   the back and where the grills are on the [TS]

00:33:15   back several times and the insides have [TS]

00:33:17   changed frequently and I think that gets [TS]

00:33:19   neglected because people think all [TS]

00:33:20   they haven't changed the case because it [TS]

00:33:22   looks the same from the outside [TS]

00:33:23   well change in the inside is just as [TS]

00:33:27   difficult if not more difficult than [TS]

00:33:28   changing the outside I guess if the [TS]

00:33:29   outside you have to do some sort of [TS]

00:33:30   artistic design but the inside is [TS]

00:33:31   everytime they get new components or [TS]

00:33:33   rearrange how the RAM connects on the [TS]

00:33:35   motherboard whether it's on a daughter [TS]

00:33:37   card or directly on the motherboard I [TS]

00:33:39   like that redesigning that inside [TS]

00:33:40   they've done that several times over and [TS]

00:33:43   then might as well be entirely different [TS]

00:33:44   computers if you compare a Power Mac g5 [TS]

00:33:46   which is in the same quote/unquote same [TS]

00:33:47   case to the insides of a current Mac Pro [TS]

00:33:49   the insides have no parts in common and [TS]

00:33:52   don't match up almost in any possible [TS]

00:33:55   way except that I guess the optical [TS]

00:33:57   drives are near the top front and the [TS]

00:33:59   CPUs are in the bottom they move the [TS]

00:34:01   power supply they move the hard drives [TS]

00:34:02   around since the Mac Pro they just [TS]

00:34:05   everything has moved inside there so [TS]

00:34:06   it's not like they're saving tons of [TS]

00:34:08   money I guess they're saving money on [TS]

00:34:09   the machining for the external case but [TS]

00:34:11   they're not like saving tons of money on [TS]

00:34:12   engineering effort because rearranging [TS]

00:34:14   that inside is a pain in the butt right [TS]

00:34:16   maybe it's their time maybe it's time [TS]

00:34:18   it's been so long maybe it's time just [TS]

00:34:20   for a different a different case yeah [TS]

00:34:23   well the reason you change the outside [TS]

00:34:25   is well if you're going to change it in [TS]

00:34:27   terms of you know ditching the opticals [TS]

00:34:29   and all the kind of a MacBook arif [TS]

00:34:31   occation of the Mac Pro where when they [TS]

00:34:34   went with the MacBook Air which everyone [TS]

00:34:35   just assumes which I believe to when the [TS]

00:34:37   next 15-inch comes along at some point [TS]

00:34:39   in the future the 15-inch will look like [TS]

00:34:40   the air they're going to ditch the [TS]

00:34:41   optical drive all of them will look like [TS]

00:34:42   airs get rid of stuff that's in there [TS]

00:34:44   that you don't need anymore in a laptop [TS]

00:34:46   it was mostly the optical drive and [TS]

00:34:48   change the shape of the case to [TS]

00:34:49   accommodate that so an application of [TS]

00:34:52   that philosophy to the Mac Pro seems [TS]

00:34:55   overdue if only because the rest of the [TS]

00:34:57   line is going through that change like [TS]

00:34:58   the Mac Mini went through it it got rid [TS]

00:35:00   of its optical drive and change its [TS]

00:35:01   shape the laptops are going through that [TS]

00:35:04   thing and and for fashion just because [TS]

00:35:06   now the Mac Pro doesn't get the fashion [TS]

00:35:09   treatment even though iMac to--some much [TS]

00:35:11   these days like the new IMAX I think the [TS]

00:35:14   last change it is when the screen when [TS]

00:35:15   edge-to-edge the glass of the screen [TS]

00:35:16   goes all the way to the edge of the [TS]

00:35:18   machine and the old ones it didn't go [TS]

00:35:20   over to the edge but mostly they look [TS]

00:35:21   the same but but yeah eventually you [TS]

00:35:23   would think they have to change the [TS]

00:35:24   outside if only to keep the thing [TS]

00:35:27   looking fresh every decade or so so so I [TS]

00:35:30   think there's something behind that but [TS]

00:35:32   the article goes on to get to the meat [TS]

00:35:34   the matter which is his crazy theory [TS]

00:35:37   that they're going to ditch the back Pro [TS]

00:35:40   and replace it with a bunch of Mac minis [TS]

00:35:41   that you could stack and they would [TS]

00:35:42   somehow connect together to become more [TS]

00:35:44   powerful with like Voltron I don't know [TS]

00:35:46   I'm not I'm not going to discuss this [TS]

00:35:48   particular that doesn't seem like the [TS]

00:35:50   Apple way yeah that's that's pipe dreamy [TS]

00:35:53   but he does eventually come to a [TS]

00:35:57   somewhat valid point your point that's [TS]

00:36:00   not the Apple way is that Apple Apple [TS]

00:36:01   doesn't like cables and external boxes [TS]

00:36:03   which again makes me think it's weird [TS]

00:36:05   they sell third-party external hard [TS]

00:36:07   drives and they want you to connect them [TS]

00:36:08   to their beautiful laptops but anyway [TS]

00:36:09   they don't want a bunch of boxes [TS]

00:36:11   connected with cables they want it all [TS]

00:36:12   in one thing with the few cables as [TS]

00:36:14   possible coming out of it so the idea [TS]

00:36:15   that Apple would say ditch this Mac Pro [TS]

00:36:18   replace it with a bunch of these boxes [TS]

00:36:19   that you connect together doesn't seem [TS]

00:36:22   that reasonable now Thunderbolt comes in [TS]

00:36:24   here because Thunderbolt is basically [TS]

00:36:26   PCI Express over a wire outside your box [TS]

00:36:28   so you could in theory have for example [TS]

00:36:31   an external video card I think someone [TS]

00:36:33   is actually manufacturing one of these I [TS]

00:36:35   couldn't find the link but I think there [TS]

00:36:36   someone has announced that they are [TS]

00:36:37   making an external video card where it's [TS]

00:36:40   you know it's like a video card they get [TS]

00:36:41   from ATR and video or something stick it [TS]

00:36:43   in a box give it some kind of power [TS]

00:36:45   supply and have a Thunderbolt connector [TS]

00:36:46   hanging out of it and connect that [TS]

00:36:47   Thunderbolt connected to any Mac with a [TS]

00:36:49   Thunderbolt port and with some software [TS]

00:36:51   drivers have the Mac use that video card [TS]

00:36:54   as if it's it's video card because the [TS]

00:36:56   video cards are currently connected to [TS]

00:36:57   Macs in a PCI Express slot and [TS]

00:37:00   Thunderbolt is like external PCI Express [TS]

00:37:02   so as far as the Mac is concerned this [TS]

00:37:03   video card looks like it's connected to [TS]

00:37:04   a PCI Express slot or that's the that's [TS]

00:37:06   the theory of the entire thing there [TS]

00:37:07   that that has the bandwidth that has the [TS]

00:37:09   latency it is basically PCI Express you [TS]

00:37:12   can have a video card outside your box [TS]

00:37:14   so hey if you get your iMac and you [TS]

00:37:16   can't play the latest game because the [TS]

00:37:17   video card is a little bit too wimpy by [TS]

00:37:19   big hunking terror box 2000 with fans in [TS]

00:37:22   it and the power supply that has a big [TS]

00:37:23   scary video card to connect it with your [TS]

00:37:25   Thunderbolt port and now you are able to [TS]

00:37:27   gain better and you can upgrade that box [TS]

00:37:28   again I think this is not likely at all [TS]

00:37:30   maybe from the third party third party [TS]

00:37:32   will make it but Apple and apples never [TS]

00:37:34   going to sell you a video card in a box [TS]

00:37:36   that seems very very unlikely to me that [TS]

00:37:37   they want you to hang this thing off the [TS]

00:37:40   back of your computer even with a [TS]

00:37:41   Thunderbolt cable seems very unlikely I [TS]

00:37:43   could finally I can't wait to see that [TS]

00:37:45   demo at WWDC [TS]

00:37:46   yeah yeah it's not I don't even know how [TS]

00:37:49   they'd photograph out there you ever [TS]

00:37:51   noticed by the way when Apple does [TS]

00:37:52   photograph its max if a cable appears [TS]

00:37:55   and it's Mac photograph it is like the [TS]

00:37:57   the the Platonic ideal of a cable it [TS]

00:38:00   perfectly arcs from the device that is [TS]

00:38:02   connected to sort of either disappearing [TS]

00:38:04   behind the other device or you know [TS]

00:38:06   there's never any pretense the cable [TS]

00:38:08   actually connects from the to a port [TS]

00:38:10   somewhere on the computer and their [TS]

00:38:12   cables are it's almost like they're [TS]

00:38:14   they're drawn in after the fact because [TS]

00:38:15   when you get an actual cable they're [TS]

00:38:17   wrapped up in the box and a little [TS]

00:38:18   bundle and their SWAT type of the twisty [TS]

00:38:20   tie when you UNCHR impe them they have [TS]

00:38:21   all the kinks in them you know and those [TS]

00:38:23   kinks never quite go out unless you [TS]

00:38:24   stretch them an actual cable does not [TS]

00:38:28   look like what Apple photographs really [TS]

00:38:29   Apple doesn't want there to be cables [TS]

00:38:30   which is why they have always Bluetooth [TS]

00:38:32   accessories now and they don't have [TS]

00:38:34   wires on their mice and all the stuff so [TS]

00:38:36   yeah I can't imagine them trying to have [TS]

00:38:38   an external box but finally at the end [TS]

00:38:40   of this article cringe Lee gets closer [TS]

00:38:43   to what I think is reasonable he [TS]

00:38:45   discusses not putting the video card [TS]

00:38:47   inside an external box but sticking it [TS]

00:38:50   inside the display which it means six of [TS]

00:38:53   one half dozen the other right well it's [TS]

00:38:54   an external box and it's connected baha [TS]

00:38:56   but the monitor was already connected [TS]

00:38:58   with a Thunderbolt port mini DisplayPort [TS]

00:39:01   same connector type thing and Apple has [TS]

00:39:04   already shown a willingness to show [TS]

00:39:05   computing stuff inside of the display [TS]

00:39:07   the new 30-inch displays have Ethernet [TS]

00:39:09   ports firewire ports what else is on [TS]

00:39:12   there USB and all that stuff and you [TS]

00:39:13   connect the Thunderbolt cable from your [TS]

00:39:16   new fancy Thunderbolt equipped a Mac [TS]

00:39:18   laptop to the monitor and now your Mac [TS]

00:39:22   laptop thinks it has an Ethernet port it [TS]

00:39:24   has a firewire board it has all the [TS]

00:39:25   ports that it didn't have before so you [TS]

00:39:27   can act your macbook air to your 30 inch [TS]

00:39:28   display suddenly your MacBook Air [TS]

00:39:30   becomes a much more full-featured [TS]

00:39:31   desktop / laptop hybrid computer and the [TS]

00:39:35   circuitry inside the monitor to do that [TS]

00:39:38   so putting a video card inside that [TS]

00:39:41   monitor is still I think kind of on [TS]

00:39:43   Apple like mostly because Apple doesn't [TS]

00:39:44   really care about gamers and doesn't [TS]

00:39:45   care about video cards period but it's [TS]

00:39:49   more within the realm of possibility [TS]

00:39:50   because it's not another box it's just [TS]

00:39:52   the monitor that you already have an [TS]

00:39:53   apple and you don't need another cable [TS]

00:39:54   because monitor is you're already [TS]

00:39:56   connected with a Thunderbolt cable or I [TS]

00:39:57   mean you know it's the same thing as the [TS]

00:39:58   mini DisplayPort cable so there's [TS]

00:40:00   an additional cable there and Apple has [TS]

00:40:02   shown that they are willing to enhance [TS]

00:40:04   the power of their laptops by sticking [TS]

00:40:06   electronics inside their monitor and it [TS]

00:40:09   lets Apple raise the prices of their [TS]

00:40:10   monitors blah blah blah of course the [TS]

00:40:12   downside any geek will say well great if [TS]

00:40:14   I do that but now i monetize it lost my [TS]

00:40:15   video card and Apple doesn't care about [TS]

00:40:17   that the same thing with the iMac well [TS]

00:40:19   one my monitor does I lost my whole [TS]

00:40:20   computer if I buy not back yes that is [TS]

00:40:22   100% true it's also true of laptops you [TS]

00:40:25   could get it repaired to great expense [TS]

00:40:26   but really realistically if the monitor [TS]

00:40:28   dies on your iMac after a few years [TS]

00:40:30   you're just going to get a new computer [TS]

00:40:31   Apple doesn't really care about bundling [TS]

00:40:33   together those two devices you just have [TS]

00:40:36   to deal with it so I I think it's not [TS]

00:40:39   it's less likely you know it's less than [TS]

00:40:41   50 percent likely that this could ever [TS]

00:40:43   happen but it's still within the realm [TS]

00:40:44   of possibility that Apple could one day [TS]

00:40:46   decide to put a video especially for [TS]

00:40:49   laptops they could put you know only [TS]

00:40:51   Intel integrated graphics inside their [TS]

00:40:53   laptops like in a year or two years or [TS]

00:40:55   two generations from now when Intel's [TS]

00:40:56   integrated GPUs are not as [TS]

00:40:58   embarrassingly horrible as they are [TS]

00:40:59   today and they have been getting better [TS]

00:41:00   but you know they're already doing that [TS]

00:41:02   now they're going with the Intel [TS]

00:41:03   graphics on there I think on the air is [TS]

00:41:04   only have Intel graphics and it's [TS]

00:41:05   actually kind of stepped down because [TS]

00:41:07   the Intel graphics are not quite up to [TS]

00:41:08   the level that the dedicated GPUs used [TS]

00:41:11   to be but it's clear that Apple wants to [TS]

00:41:14   only use integrated GPUs for the power [TS]

00:41:16   savings and all those other reasons [TS]

00:41:18   battery life and stuff like that but it [TS]

00:41:20   would be kind of neat if you could sell [TS]

00:41:22   an even more expensive monitor with a [TS]

00:41:24   more powerful video card in there and [TS]

00:41:26   say now when you hook up your MacBook [TS]

00:41:27   Air to this there are new 30-inch [TS]

00:41:29   display it becomes a reasonable gaming [TS]

00:41:32   rig where you can actually play games [TS]

00:41:33   that you could never play on your air by [TS]

00:41:35   itself because of its cruddy integrated [TS]

00:41:37   graphics but you can play when you hook [TS]

00:41:39   it up to a monitor and really that's how [TS]

00:41:40   you want to play it anyway be set as a [TS]

00:41:41   big screen and blah blah blah [TS]

00:41:42   now if Apple does do this I don't see it [TS]

00:41:44   coming out anytime soon because Apple [TS]

00:41:46   still hasn't even shipped its 30 inch [TS]

00:41:47   displays and I know this because I [TS]

00:41:48   actually have one in order those aren't [TS]

00:41:51   even shipping mine is supposed to come [TS]

00:41:52   on September 20 so if this GPU and the [TS]

00:41:55   monitor thing ever does come to pass [TS]

00:41:56   cringes theory is that it would happen [TS]

00:41:58   about the same time as as Apple produces [TS]

00:42:00   a retina a quote-unquote retina display [TS]

00:42:03   for the desktop or a double resolution [TS]

00:42:04   type of display and that doesn't seem [TS]

00:42:07   like it's going to happen until the [TS]

00:42:08   operating systems has support for it and [TS]

00:42:09   that's not going to happen until maybe [TS]

00:42:11   ten point eight or something like that [TS]

00:42:13   because the double resolution stuff [TS]

00:42:15   exists in line but it's a developer only [TS]

00:42:18   feature you need developer tools turn on [TS]

00:42:20   it's not an end-user feature and half [TS]

00:42:21   the apps break when you do it and so on [TS]

00:42:23   and so forth so I like this I like this [TS]

00:42:26   story there's something for everybody it [TS]

00:42:28   has big rumors of the Mac Pro going away [TS]

00:42:32   which scares enterprise people [TS]

00:42:33   it's got crazy theories about clicking [TS]

00:42:36   together a bunch of Mac minis and it's [TS]

00:42:38   got a somewhat plausible idea of having [TS]

00:42:41   a GPU inside a monitor so I put the link [TS]

00:42:45   in the show notes I recommend people [TS]

00:42:46   take a look at it and I'll I'm ready for [TS]

00:42:49   something to happen to the Mac Pro even [TS]

00:42:51   as a Mac Pro buyer I'm ready to be [TS]

00:42:54   shaken up a little bit to change the Mac [TS]

00:42:56   Pro do do your worst how you know I've [TS]

00:42:58   my computer is about three years old now [TS]

00:43:01   something like that I'll probably buy a [TS]

00:43:03   new Mac next year the year after that [TS]

00:43:06   the latest I'm willing to entertain [TS]

00:43:08   options other than the existing ones [TS]

00:43:11   let's take a minute and talk about our [TS]

00:43:14   other sponsor for this episode we'd like [TS]

00:43:17   to thank source bits source bits provide [TS]

00:43:19   software design and development services [TS]

00:43:21   for iOS Android Mac and the web and [TS]

00:43:24   source bits is at the bleeding edge of [TS]

00:43:28   emerging technologies and their deep [TS]

00:43:30   experience and its successful track [TS]

00:43:33   record ensures that your idea will be [TS]

00:43:35   transformed into a functional well [TS]

00:43:37   tested and visually stunning world-class [TS]

00:43:39   app and in no time so if you have an [TS]

00:43:42   idea for an app and you want to see that [TS]

00:43:45   idea come to life well hey source bits [TS]

00:43:48   is the place that can do this for you [TS]

00:43:50   source bits has the know-how to save you [TS]

00:43:53   time and money by getting it done right [TS]

00:43:57   the first time to learn more about [TS]

00:43:59   source bits to learn how you can get [TS]

00:44:01   your iPhone or Android app idea come to [TS]

00:44:04   life you need to check out source bits [TS]

00:44:07   dot-com cutting-edge app development and [TS]

00:44:11   we thank source bits for supporting [TS]

00:44:13   hypercritical yeah I would if they came [TS]

00:44:17   out with a smaller version of the Mac [TS]

00:44:19   Pro I would certainly I mean I'm only a [TS]

00:44:22   year into this one so it's still a bit [TS]

00:44:24   early for me but [TS]

00:44:27   I mean sighs it's that's really the big [TS]

00:44:29   disadvantage for me is is the size and [TS]

00:44:31   weight of this thing so if they do [TS]

00:44:33   something a little bit smaller [TS]

00:44:34   I'm always looking to to minimize the [TS]

00:44:37   amount of crap that I have in the office [TS]

00:44:39   here yeah I'm and I'm ready to do like [TS]

00:44:43   the optical drives and stuff like that [TS]

00:44:44   um although I I think I've used my [TS]

00:44:47   optical drive my Mac Pro like once in a [TS]

00:44:48   year so I've used it much less than then [TS]

00:44:52   I have you know that my usage has been [TS]

00:44:54   on the decline rapidly I would probably [TS]

00:44:57   buy an external one just have one around [TS]

00:45:00   for the few times that I need it but [TS]

00:45:03   eventually I'm assuming the computer [TS]

00:45:04   after that I wouldn't need that anymore [TS]

00:45:05   either so in the remaining time I [TS]

00:45:09   actually do want to talk about the HP [TS]

00:45:10   stuff I know it has been talked about to [TS]

00:45:11   death on other shows but I want to have [TS]

00:45:13   my say what's your take what's your take [TS]

00:45:16   on all this it's kind of kind of good [TS]

00:45:20   that you waited though because you know [TS]

00:45:21   it's more things have kind of cropped up [TS]

00:45:23   so so you get to take a shot at the [TS]

00:45:25   whole thing instead of instead you know [TS]

00:45:29   what's he talking about it as it [TS]

00:45:30   develops right exactly well so I agree [TS]

00:45:34   with very much everything that Marco and [TS]

00:45:36   then John said on their shows so I won't [TS]

00:45:39   cover that thing I didn't get to listen [TS]

00:45:40   to horse show I'm a little bit behind on [TS]

00:45:41   my thing but I assume that I agree with [TS]

00:45:43   what he says - he's a smart guy but [TS]

00:45:46   there's one point that I didn't hear at [TS]

00:45:47   least on Marco and John show that I want [TS]

00:45:49   to talk about and that's how so how the [TS]

00:45:53   HP thing feels if you're Microsoft all [TS]

00:45:59   right I think maybe a few people talk [TS]

00:46:01   about this a little bit but we're [TS]

00:46:03   talking about what this means for the [TS]

00:46:05   mobile market what Emile's for Apple and [TS]

00:46:06   Google how HP is mishandled they're [TS]

00:46:09   they're the cancelling of webOS and all [TS]

00:46:12   that business and the future of that [TS]

00:46:14   operating system or lack thereof but if [TS]

00:46:17   you're Microsoft [TS]

00:46:19   your main business at this point is [TS]

00:46:21   still windows in office right and your [TS]

00:46:24   model that the thing that has made [TS]

00:46:26   Microsoft successful has amazingly [TS]

00:46:29   successful as it was in the 90s is that [TS]

00:46:30   they sell the software that runs the [TS]

00:46:33   world's PCs and they let the PC maker as [TS]

00:46:37   the hardware makers kill each other in [TS]

00:46:39   Ruth [TS]

00:46:40   this competition too on the hardware [TS]

00:46:44   right there so that commoditizing your [TS]

00:46:46   compliments thing where Microsoft [TS]

00:46:48   software is useless without hardware to [TS]

00:46:49   run on but they don't want to be [TS]

00:46:51   bothered with dealing with that nasty [TS]

00:46:52   physical low-margin world of creating [TS]

00:46:55   hardware so they let tons and tons of [TS]

00:46:56   computer hardware manufacturers compete [TS]

00:46:58   against each other in every possible way [TS]

00:47:00   in every possible country every any [TS]

00:47:02   means necessary to sell the most pcs and [TS]

00:47:06   what it's resulted in is sort of a race [TS]

00:47:08   to the bottom in terms of margins where [TS]

00:47:10   HP as Gruber pointed out was that the [TS]

00:47:15   had the largest market share in the PC [TS]

00:47:17   market they were selling more pcs than [TS]

00:47:19   anybody but they were making so little [TS]

00:47:20   money off each one as like you know [TS]

00:47:22   we'll make it up in volume well they had [TS]

00:47:24   the volume they were the number one PC [TS]

00:47:26   seller and they've decided that that [TS]

00:47:29   business is not worth being it the [TS]

00:47:30   margins are so low that this you know [TS]

00:47:33   that's not growing like it used to be [TS]

00:47:35   Mobile's Cooley where it's supposed to [TS]

00:47:36   be a little bit getting into that [TS]

00:47:37   business tube that's all different story [TS]

00:47:39   but that it's not worthwhile being the [TS]

00:47:42   world's biggest PC vendor and think of [TS]

00:47:44   think about what that means like in the [TS]

00:47:46   90s you had so many different vendors [TS]

00:47:48   competing as each other and they slowly [TS]

00:47:50   consolidated Dell can sort of came out [TS]

00:47:52   of nowhere with an even better business [TS]

00:47:54   model to undercut everyone else's prices [TS]

00:47:56   with direct sales and no retail channel [TS]

00:47:58   and all those stuff and build to order [TS]

00:48:00   and selling to businesses and compact [TS]

00:48:03   couldn't make a run of it independently [TS]

00:48:04   and they got merged into HP and I don't [TS]

00:48:07   remember who picked up Gateway maybe [TS]

00:48:09   Acer picked them up [TS]

00:48:10   consolidation happen as these vendors [TS]

00:48:13   couldn't make a go of it anymore because [TS]

00:48:15   their margins were so low or someone [TS]

00:48:17   else had slightly lower margins and they [TS]

00:48:18   couldn't compete with them and their [TS]

00:48:19   sales went down and they merged emerged [TS]

00:48:21   in emerging emerge until we basically [TS]

00:48:22   had at this point maybe three or four PC [TS]

00:48:27   vendors you get HP Dell Acer Lenovo who [TS]

00:48:30   am I forgetting who's an actual player [TS]

00:48:32   in the PC hardware market these days [TS]

00:48:34   maybe Sony I don't like Sony's hell's [TS]

00:48:36   too few no but HP was the big dog and so [TS]

00:48:39   I looked up numbers for what they did [TS]

00:48:42   2010 for the entire year of 2010 HP sold [TS]

00:48:45   64 million computers Dell was 43 million [TS]

00:48:49   Acer was 41 million right and HP has [TS]

00:48:52   said it's not worth it for us to be in [TS]

00:48:54   that [TS]

00:48:54   so sorry guys were out so my first [TS]

00:48:57   question is who gets those 64 million [TS]

00:49:00   sales in 2011 right the PC business is [TS]

00:49:03   not growing like the mobile business but [TS]

00:49:04   it's not I don't think it's shrinking [TS]

00:49:05   yet maybe it's flat or maybe as tiny [TS]

00:49:07   increase or whatever but who gets those [TS]

00:49:10   64 million because HP is like ah we're [TS]

00:49:12   not interested it's just not worth it us [TS]

00:49:14   we we don't make enough money off that [TS]

00:49:15   or we don't think the future of the [TS]

00:49:17   business we want out is that 64 million [TS]

00:49:19   computers get evenly distributed among [TS]

00:49:21   Dell and Acer and Lenovo and friends [TS]

00:49:23   where does that go and the second line [TS]

00:49:25   getting back to Microsoft is Microsoft's [TS]

00:49:28   whole strategy was to make other people [TS]

00:49:31   deal with the crappy low margin business [TS]

00:49:32   but now those chickens seem like you're [TS]

00:49:35   coming home to roost where they're the [TS]

00:49:36   other people like you know what [TS]

00:49:37   Microsoft we did this for so long you [TS]

00:49:39   made massive margins because you just [TS]

00:49:40   sell software and you can duplicate that [TS]

00:49:42   basically for free it and we're not not [TS]

00:49:45   interested in being getting carrying [TS]

00:49:47   water for you anymore we don't we know [TS]

00:49:48   it's not worth it for us to be in this [TS]

00:49:50   business selling these crappy boxes at [TS]

00:49:52   low margins because they're all crappy [TS]

00:49:54   because to compete in this business and [TS]

00:49:55   survive you have to you know get the [TS]

00:49:57   lowest bidders and the crappiest parts [TS]

00:49:58   that customers can possibly stand and [TS]

00:50:00   push them out the door right and the it [TS]

00:50:03   because you can't differentiate based on [TS]

00:50:05   hardware and you can't differentiate [TS]

00:50:06   based on a hardware software experience [TS]

00:50:08   because Microsoft has become even more [TS]

00:50:09   strict with don't crap up our computers [TS]

00:50:12   with a bunch of custom interfaces you're [TS]

00:50:13   supposed to just run Windows 7 sort of [TS]

00:50:15   the way it is don't make a custom I mean [TS]

00:50:17   Compaq and also the company used to have [TS]

00:50:18   their own custom interfaces when you [TS]

00:50:19   boot the computer would say Compaq and [TS]

00:50:21   it would show all this weird crap they [TS]

00:50:23   were trying to differentiate themselves [TS]

00:50:24   trying to earn that money but they were [TS]

00:50:26   so bad at it that it just pissed [TS]

00:50:27   customers often people just wanted to [TS]

00:50:29   clean windows install so the question [TS]

00:50:32   for Microsoft is eventually will there [TS]

00:50:34   be nobody left who wants to be the [TS]

00:50:38   flagship who wants to provide the [TS]

00:50:40   hardware for your software now that's [TS]

00:50:41   hyperbolic because disk obviously [TS]

00:50:44   they're selling Dell and Acer selling 80 [TS]

00:50:46   million computers a year between them [TS]

00:50:48   and those HP computers are going to go [TS]

00:50:49   somewhere so it's not like the PC [TS]

00:50:50   markets can disappear but but Microsoft [TS]

00:50:52   wants is kind of like what Intel want [TS]

00:50:54   they want a partner who will show off [TS]

00:50:57   what they do so Microsoft makes they're [TS]

00:50:59   gonna make Windows 8 or whatever they're [TS]

00:51:01   going to want hardware partners who [TS]

00:51:03   because it make them look good because [TS]

00:51:04   Microsoft software is useless in in [TS]

00:51:06   isolation [TS]

00:51:07   just like the the the [TS]

00:51:08   Bender's hardware's uses in isolation [TS]

00:51:09   the product comes from the mixing of [TS]

00:51:12   those two things and the business model [TS]

00:51:13   of having those things separated has [TS]

00:51:15   been great for Microsoft and was [TS]

00:51:17   arguably great consumers when pcs were [TS]

00:51:18   competing with each other but now that [TS]

00:51:20   the hardware side is so massively [TS]

00:51:21   consolidated and so crappy and has raced [TS]

00:51:24   to the bottom and is at the bottom and [TS]

00:51:26   the number one seller Rafi sees doesn't [TS]

00:51:28   want to be in that business anymore who [TS]

00:51:30   is not going to go to to show off [TS]

00:51:32   Windows 8 are they gonna show off on a [TS]

00:51:33   Dell on an Acer they going to find a [TS]

00:51:35   boutique maker like Sony to show off [TS]

00:51:36   their thing but you know that integrated [TS]

00:51:39   experience that Apple has where they can [TS]

00:51:41   make the hardware and software is one [TS]

00:51:42   sleek awesome product you know here's [TS]

00:51:44   the new MacBook Air shipping with lion [TS]

00:51:46   it shows everything all together and [TS]

00:51:48   look how it makes sense to go fullscreen [TS]

00:51:49   on our little 11 inch air with [TS]

00:51:51   Thunderbolts and connected to the [TS]

00:51:52   monitor with a Thunderbolt cable and you [TS]

00:51:55   know the software all just works [TS]

00:51:56   together and it's awesome [TS]

00:51:57   where is that going to be for Microsoft [TS]

00:51:59   and Microsoft is desperate for good [TS]

00:52:01   hardware partners they were desperate [TS]

00:52:02   for good hardware partners for their for [TS]

00:52:04   the music players you know the plays for [TS]

00:52:06   sure thing and they basically decided [TS]

00:52:07   you guys stink you're not making us look [TS]

00:52:09   good [TS]

00:52:10   you're not selling well against the iPod [TS]

00:52:12   we're going to make our own Zune thing [TS]

00:52:13   and by all accounts the Zune is a much [TS]

00:52:15   better product than any of the [TS]

00:52:16   pre-existing place for sure things where [TS]

00:52:18   they had other people making the music [TS]

00:52:20   player hardware and they made the [TS]

00:52:21   software and they combined them the Zune [TS]

00:52:23   where Microsoft made the hardware and [TS]

00:52:24   the software was a much better product [TS]

00:52:26   still didn't make a dent in the iPod it [TS]

00:52:27   was too late [TS]

00:52:28   but it shows that Microsoft can decide [TS]

00:52:31   that it's hardware partners are not are [TS]

00:52:35   more trouble than they're worth it [TS]

00:52:37   they're not they're not helping [TS]

00:52:38   Microsoft's efforts so Microsoft got [TS]

00:52:39   this got Windows 8 and they want to ship [TS]

00:52:41   it on the tablet right and but it's also [TS]

00:52:43   supposed to be real Windows and Windows [TS]

00:52:44   8 is going to ship on my desktop too so [TS]

00:52:46   I'm sure Microsoft is looking for [TS]

00:52:48   someone to be a tablet partner and maybe [TS]

00:52:50   they'll find someone to be a good tablet [TS]

00:52:51   partner for them but for the PC this [TS]

00:52:53   Microsoft just say we are resigned to [TS]

00:52:55   the fact that from now on our awesome [TS]

00:52:58   new Windows 8 Windows 9 Windows 8 [TS]

00:53:00   Brazilian operating system we're not [TS]

00:53:02   when we can't show it off because the [TS]

00:53:04   only thing we could put it on is the [TS]

00:53:06   computer that everybody has which is [TS]

00:53:07   some crappy Dell or Acer thing assembled [TS]

00:53:10   of parts made by the lowest bidder it's [TS]

00:53:13   just ugly low quality not differentiated [TS]

00:53:17   they're just not gonna you know is that [TS]

00:53:19   not going to be a factor anymore though [TS]

00:53:20   yeah and we have Windows on dust [TS]

00:53:22   opps and it's not important but you know [TS]

00:53:23   it is what it is go to your store go to [TS]

00:53:26   your best buy and buy whatever crap they [TS]

00:53:27   have they're like maybe that ship has [TS]

00:53:29   already sailed but it just seems [TS]

00:53:30   depressing from me from Microsoft's [TS]

00:53:32   perspective to see the other half of [TS]

00:53:34   your business no longer being viable [TS]

00:53:37   right they have the salad years where [TS]

00:53:39   they were reaping all the profit and the [TS]

00:53:41   other guys we're also making money [TS]

00:53:43   because of the grow huge growth of the [TS]

00:53:44   PC industry but they just had lower [TS]

00:53:46   margins and now it's kind of flattening [TS]

00:53:47   out and everyone else is a bending ship [TS]

00:53:49   on the other side so I have to think [TS]

00:53:51   from Microsoft's perspective this HP [TS]

00:53:52   exit independent of all of the webOS [TS]

00:53:55   mobile business or whatever has to be [TS]

00:53:58   disturbing to them somebody gave up on [TS]

00:54:01   their big market I think I think one [TS]

00:54:04   other thing one other point of this is [TS]

00:54:06   that the doomsday scenario for for [TS]

00:54:10   Microsoft is not that nobody wants to [TS]

00:54:11   make pcs it's that almost nobody wants [TS]

00:54:15   to make two pcs because imagine that you [TS]

00:54:18   know HP gets out and its sales go to [TS]

00:54:19   Dell and Acer but they mostly go to Dell [TS]

00:54:21   eventually Acer gets out because they're [TS]

00:54:24   just like well Dell has is now that you [TS]

00:54:26   know imagine 60 million of these 64 [TS]

00:54:28   million go to Dell not Dell is much too [TS]

00:54:30   big and Acer can't make margins because [TS]

00:54:32   it doesn't have the volume contracts at [TS]

00:54:34   Delos until again the Lenovo is just in [TS]

00:54:36   laptops now imagine you end up with very [TS]

00:54:39   very few people massively dominating the [TS]

00:54:43   PC hardware market what happens then is [TS]

00:54:45   the shoe starts to be on the other foot [TS]

00:54:47   because Microsoft used to be able to pit [TS]

00:54:50   the hardware makers against each other [TS]

00:54:52   but if there's so much consolidation [TS]

00:54:54   that everybody bails out that there's so [TS]

00:54:56   few left suddenly Dell with selling you [TS]

00:54:59   know 90% of the PCs sold in a year come [TS]

00:55:01   from Dell or 80% of our suddenly Dell [TS]

00:55:03   has massive bargaining power against [TS]

00:55:05   Windows for Windows license pricing you [TS]

00:55:07   know what I mean and that's what [TS]

00:55:08   Microsoft does not want they don't they [TS]

00:55:10   hate they want you know just enough [TS]

00:55:12   diversity and hardware so they compete [TS]

00:55:14   against each other and give customers a [TS]

00:55:15   good experience but not so much that [TS]

00:55:17   everyone makes them under crap boxes and [TS]

00:55:18   not so little that now Microsoft is over [TS]

00:55:21   a barrel on licensing fees and there's [TS]

00:55:23   suddenly their massive profits for [TS]

00:55:24   Windows and Office start going down [TS]

00:55:25   because they don't have a strong a [TS]

00:55:27   bargaining position because Dells going [TS]

00:55:28   to say look I guess they'd be both being [TS]

00:55:30   the same both deal was Dell going to say [TS]

00:55:31   we're not going to ship when those in [TS]

00:55:32   our computers that never sell a computer [TS]

00:55:34   they're they're going to go with Linux [TS]

00:55:35   No maybe there maybe they're in the boat [TS]

00:55:39   together on the side or no I'm just [TS]

00:55:41   thinking that from Microsoft perspective [TS]

00:55:43   is HP thing looks like looks just bad I [TS]

00:55:46   think to go back yeah I agree to go back [TS]

00:55:49   to what you're asking about you know who [TS]

00:55:50   are they who would they partner with to [TS]

00:55:52   really show off you know Windows 8 or [TS]

00:55:56   whatever and and I don't think the you [TS]

00:55:59   know if I just think about in terms of [TS]

00:56:01   perceived quality of products I don't [TS]

00:56:05   think it would be Dell Rhea's it seems [TS]

00:56:07   like Lenovo would be the place that they [TS]

00:56:08   would go because little novo is [TS]

00:56:09   historically back you know back to when [TS]

00:56:11   they before they before IBM laptops and [TS]

00:56:15   stuff came over that you know they put [TS]

00:56:18   out some quality products and it seems [TS]

00:56:19   like that would be a good partner for [TS]

00:56:21   showcasing Windows 8 and but I'm I'm [TS]

00:56:26   with you that this is a that this is a [TS]

00:56:28   longer-term problem and I think that's [TS]

00:56:29   probably maybe what kind of came out of [TS]

00:56:31   all the conversations I've had in the [TS]

00:56:33   last week with people about you know [TS]

00:56:35   over the different podcasts about this [TS]

00:56:37   which is not about you know what this [TS]

00:56:39   means now you know whether it's mobile [TS]

00:56:41   or or you know that with touchpad or [TS]

00:56:43   anything like that it's you know what it [TS]

00:56:46   was the impact going to be on this in 10 [TS]

00:56:47   years because you know the decline is [TS]

00:56:48   already here we are already seeing the [TS]

00:56:50   decline from from desktop PCs and but [TS]

00:56:54   what but you know how does Microsoft [TS]

00:56:56   sort of fix this because this you know [TS]

00:56:59   like you said this the ship has already [TS]

00:57:00   sailed we're already seeing this happen [TS]

00:57:02   but where do they where do they go from [TS]

00:57:04   here to to I guess to make sure that [TS]

00:57:08   they can you know make a smooth [TS]

00:57:09   transition as possible because there's [TS]

00:57:11   no doubt I mean you do disagree that the [TS]

00:57:13   or do you agree that that Windows as it [TS]

00:57:16   is today is obviously going to is going [TS]

00:57:19   to go away at some point just like you [TS]

00:57:22   know we see Mac OS 10 become more iOS [TS]

00:57:24   like it seems like we're we're heading [TS]

00:57:27   that way and Windows is seems like [TS]

00:57:29   they're they're still caught up in that [TS]

00:57:30   in that old way of doing things well see [TS]

00:57:34   the thing about desktop laptop PCs and [TS]

00:57:37   Lenovo and stuff like that is that the [TS]

00:57:40   window side of the world it's not like [TS]

00:57:43   it's not like PCs are going away the [TS]

00:57:45   window side of the world is looking [TS]

00:57:46   worse and worse in comparison to [TS]

00:57:48   Apple does so Lenovo makes you know then [TS]

00:57:51   I think pads and stuff make good laptops [TS]

00:57:52   you know usually better than Dell [TS]

00:57:54   laptops and stuff like that but they're [TS]

00:57:56   not the lowest possible price they are [TS]

00:57:57   competing with Dell when they're selling [TS]

00:57:59   to businesses and stuff like that but [TS]

00:58:01   either one of those put next to a new [TS]

00:58:04   MacBook Air or something even a naive [TS]

00:58:08   consumer can tell one of these things is [TS]

00:58:10   not like the other like they they don't [TS]

00:58:12   the hardware does not hold up against [TS]

00:58:14   Apple's hardware I you know I don't want [TS]

00:58:19   to keep thinking back to is what what [TS]

00:58:21   does Microsoft do about this because I [TS]

00:58:22   don't think the PC will quote unquote go [TS]

00:58:24   away because the thing is the market [TS]

00:58:27   that the PC is in a lot of those Apple [TS]

00:58:29   just doesn't want Apple does is not [TS]

00:58:31   interested in selling to businesses [TS]

00:58:33   because businesses are pain in the butt [TS]

00:58:34   they have all these demands they want a [TS]

00:58:36   roadmap they want all these features and [TS]

00:58:38   if you don't give it to them they'll go [TS]

00:58:39   to someone else so I think they'll until [TS]

00:58:41   or unless Apple ever becomes interested [TS]

00:58:44   in selling to businesses there will be a [TS]

00:58:46   humongous market for selling PCs but I [TS]

00:58:50   don't think Microsoft will be happy just [TS]

00:58:53   selling the business like imagine if [TS]

00:58:55   everybody had Apple hardware at home and [TS]

00:58:57   PCs at work Microsoft does not like that [TS]

00:58:59   scenario Microsoft wants a Windows [TS]

00:59:01   computer on every single person's desk [TS]

00:59:03   at home at work everywhere running [TS]

00:59:04   Windows just that's their mission [TS]

00:59:06   statement right they will not be happy [TS]

00:59:07   with that [TS]

00:59:08   situation but Apple certainly doesn't [TS]

00:59:10   want those customers like we literally [TS]

00:59:11   don't want them they say we're not [TS]

00:59:12   interested we don't we're not interested [TS]

00:59:14   in pitching your fortune 500 company put [TS]

00:59:16   a Mac on everybody's desk if you want to [TS]

00:59:17   make a mac in everybody yes we will [TS]

00:59:19   gladly sell out to you but if you have [TS]

00:59:20   demands that you want to make of us then [TS]

00:59:21   make our products worse for consumers [TS]

00:59:23   not interested sorry take it or leave it [TS]

00:59:25   we sell what we sell we'll do what we [TS]

00:59:26   can to help you we'll put an exchange [TS]

00:59:28   support well you know put remote wipe on [TS]

00:59:29   all our iOS devices like we'll go to [TS]

00:59:32   some lengths to help you with your [TS]

00:59:35   enterprise needs but we're not going to [TS]

00:59:37   do what Dell does for you we are not [TS]

00:59:39   going to do what Microsoft does for you [TS]

00:59:41   if that's what you want and you know [TS]

00:59:43   stick with them so I think because Apple [TS]

00:59:46   is not interested in that they're not [TS]

00:59:47   going to the market will not go away but [TS]

00:59:51   that market keeps Microsoft PCs in it [TS]

00:59:55   keeps them crappy basically because to [TS]

00:59:57   serve that market you have to sacrifice [TS]

00:59:58   so many things yet [TS]

00:59:58   so many things yet [TS]

01:00:00   keep things the same you have to keep [TS]

01:00:01   legacy ports longer you have to keep [TS]

01:00:03   backwards-compatibility longer you have [TS]

01:00:04   to be cheap cheap cheap because they're [TS]

01:00:06   going to buy a million of these things [TS]

01:00:07   they want the lowest possible price so I [TS]

01:00:09   wonder if Microsoft will ever sort of [TS]

01:00:13   pull a Zune in the PC business and say [TS]

01:00:15   all right all our PC vendors are veiling [TS]

01:00:18   the ones who aren't bailing or selling [TS]

01:00:20   to businesses and Microsoft truthfully [TS]

01:00:21   probably doesn't want that hardware [TS]

01:00:24   business because that's kind of a slog [TS]

01:00:25   we do want that software business [TS]

01:00:26   selling all this exchange licenses and [TS]

01:00:28   everything but what if they said [TS]

01:00:30   Microsoft was going to make a line of [TS]

01:00:32   home computers sort of like the way they [TS]

01:00:34   made their own line a music player sort [TS]

01:00:36   of like the way they make the Xbox where [TS]

01:00:37   they make the hardware they make the [TS]

01:00:38   software and they are going to compete [TS]

01:00:39   with Apple in for the hearts and minds [TS]

01:00:42   of the consumers by making it you know [TS]

01:00:44   better than Apple's computers cheaper [TS]

01:00:46   than Apple's computers but also higher [TS]

01:00:49   quality than Dells higher quality than [TS]

01:00:50   Lenovo is because they have integration [TS]

01:00:52   with the software because they can [TS]

01:00:54   release a finished product they can [TS]

01:00:55   release finally a thunderbolt equipped [TS]

01:00:57   laptop at the same time Apple does with [TS]

01:01:00   their own monitor that it connects to [TS]

01:01:02   with the special Windows 8 that knows [TS]

01:01:03   how to you know so yeah I wonder if [TS]

01:01:05   Microsoft will ever dip its toe into [TS]

01:01:11   actual PC hardware this that's also an [TS]

01:01:12   eternal rumor years and years decades [TS]

01:01:14   and decades hey what if Microsoft made a [TS]

01:01:16   PC oh they would never do that they're [TS]

01:01:17   competing with their own vendors they [TS]

01:01:20   did it with the Zune they did it from [TS]

01:01:22   day one with the Xbox but they weren't [TS]

01:01:24   competing with anybody they just made it [TS]

01:01:25   you know an Xbox has done pretty well [TS]

01:01:27   Zune was not a success in the market but [TS]

01:01:30   I believe Microsoft would say it's a [TS]

01:01:31   success as a product the product that [TS]

01:01:33   they produced with the Zune was much [TS]

01:01:35   better than the products produced by the [TS]

01:01:36   place for Shore licensing strategy so I [TS]

01:01:38   start - I start to wonder now put it put [TS]

01:01:40   on your calendar for 10 years from now [TS]

01:01:41   revisit this topic is Microsoft making [TS]

01:01:43   PC hardware or tablets or anything like [TS]

01:01:45   that all right so this is for when Dan [TS]

01:01:48   has to take time off to go to his son's [TS]

01:01:52   highschool graduation we will talk about [TS]

01:01:54   this again that's right we'll revisit [TS]

01:01:56   this topic so here we talk 10 years ago [TS]

01:01:58   is Microsoft making tablet hardware or [TS]

01:02:00   any hardware or selling window running [TS]

01:02:02   Windows yet that's right that's right [TS]

01:02:05   and we'll be recording all of this onto [TS]

01:02:07   our I'll graphic cubes are - chips [TS]

01:02:11   then I'll graphic cubes and telling you [TS]

01:02:13   future okay well that's a lot to chew on [TS]

01:02:17   I think did you have anything else on [TS]

01:02:19   your list or I have so much more but we [TS]

01:02:21   don't don't have time I actually wanted [TS]

01:02:23   to talk about I should want one more [TS]

01:02:24   thing I want to talk about Amazon okay [TS]

01:02:26   briefly you talked a lot about Amazon [TS]

01:02:29   and what they're going to do with their [TS]

01:02:31   tablet that everyone the worst kept [TS]

01:02:33   secret in the industry their tablet [TS]

01:02:34   strategy but that's going to be like [TS]

01:02:37   again I was thinking of what the HP [TS]

01:02:39   stuff is like from the perspective of a [TS]

01:02:41   company that's not directly involved [TS]

01:02:43   what does the HP thing look like if [TS]

01:02:45   you're Amazon or not the month at the HP [TS]

01:02:48   thing that Google Motorola thing mostly [TS]

01:02:49   I guess I could look at the HP thing to [TS]

01:02:52   open up Google Motorola thing if you're [TS]

01:02:53   Amazon in one respect it's like well so [TS]

01:02:56   it doesn't affect us like we are making [TS]

01:02:58   our Android tablet but we're not using [TS]

01:03:02   Google's Android we're just using it the [TS]

01:03:04   same way that Barnes and Nobles in the [TS]

01:03:05   Nook where we find will take your source [TS]

01:03:07   code you'll keep the value but we're not [TS]

01:03:09   using any of your stuff people are going [TS]

01:03:10   to even know that's running Android it's [TS]

01:03:12   our own interface hi and you know what [TS]

01:03:16   you do with your tablet or I or phone [TS]

01:03:19   strategy is none of our business but on [TS]

01:03:20   the other hand if you see the place that [TS]

01:03:23   you're pulling your OS from start to [TS]

01:03:26   change where they're making their own [TS]

01:03:29   hardware product you have to wonder so [TS]

01:03:31   what does this mean for future licensing [TS]

01:03:33   of these operating system because we're [TS]

01:03:35   if we're going to launch a line of [TS]

01:03:36   computers that rely on like the half of [TS]

01:03:40   the product basically the software [TS]

01:03:41   underlying software of the product not [TS]

01:03:43   not the part that the user sees but the [TS]

01:03:44   operating system itself we don't control [TS]

01:03:47   we don't own and it comes from some [TS]

01:03:48   other party and the advantage we're [TS]

01:03:50   getting is we don't have to develop that [TS]

01:03:51   operating system they've already [TS]

01:03:53   developed it for us they continue to [TS]

01:03:54   develop but we'll just take it from them [TS]

01:03:56   take the the underlying operating system [TS]

01:03:57   put it on our thing put our user [TS]

01:03:58   interface on top of the next revision of [TS]

01:04:00   the product we'll go back and see what [TS]

01:04:01   are those Android guys done since then [TS]

01:04:03   at the updated version of the core [TS]

01:04:05   restful and we'll take that updated [TS]

01:04:06   version apply our tweaks to it put our [TS]

01:04:07   new software on top of it we're fine [TS]

01:04:08   what if one day Google doesn't give away [TS]

01:04:13   the Droid anymore like they say okay [TS]

01:04:15   well anyone who's got an existing [TS]

01:04:16   Android you can keep using that forever [TS]

01:04:18   and ever but in fact our new product is [TS]

01:04:20   going to use some other droid thing and [TS]

01:04:22   it's not going to be licensed under the [TS]

01:04:24   same license or the licensing terms are [TS]

01:04:26   going to change or [TS]

01:04:27   we're going to make a new codebase I [TS]

01:04:29   maybe this isn't possible because it's [TS]

01:04:30   GPL but I can never really take away any [TS]

01:04:32   of the same code but maybe you don't get [TS]

01:04:34   the updates as fast maybe the open [TS]

01:04:36   source releases are not timely and if [TS]

01:04:38   you start competing with them they ship [TS]

01:04:40   their products based on the new Android [TS]

01:04:42   core before they do the open source [TS]

01:04:43   release and then when they do the open [TS]

01:04:44   source release that's when you get to [TS]

01:04:45   start working on your product so you're [TS]

01:04:47   behind I have to think that Amazon is [TS]

01:04:50   looking a little bit warily at Google's [TS]

01:04:53   moves is there not it's not like their [TS]

01:04:55   HTC or some phone vendor who should [TS]

01:04:57   really be scared because not like all [TS]

01:04:58   these guys have their own they're going [TS]

01:04:59   to make their own phones they're [TS]

01:05:00   directly competing with us you know [TS]

01:05:01   they're not directly competing with [TS]

01:05:02   Amazon in the same way but Amazon should [TS]

01:05:04   be a little bit concerned especially [TS]

01:05:05   since this is the product that hasn't [TS]

01:05:07   launched yet this was like we're going [TS]

01:05:08   to make an Amazon tablet and it's going [TS]

01:05:10   to be X Y & Z we're gonna use Android [TS]

01:05:11   because that's what everybody's doing [TS]

01:05:12   and then just as you're presumably [TS]

01:05:15   putting the finishing touches on your [TS]

01:05:16   product google buys Motorola and you [TS]

01:05:20   start rethinking your entire strategy [TS]

01:05:21   and at the same time HP bails on webOS [TS]

01:05:24   now what I would be thinking about if I [TS]

01:05:26   was at Amazon is before we pull the [TS]

01:05:29   trigger on trigger on this tablet thing [TS]

01:05:31   do we want to buy webOS and be masters [TS]

01:05:34   of our own destiny ditch the ditch our [TS]

01:05:37   existing product still chipping at [TS]

01:05:39   Amazon tablet but remake them is on [TS]

01:05:41   tablet on top of webOS instead of on top [TS]

01:05:43   of Android and we will own webOS because [TS]

01:05:45   a lot from HP for a song it will be the [TS]

01:05:48   masters of our own destiny we'll be able [TS]

01:05:49   to do what Apple does and coordinate our [TS]

01:05:51   hardware and software and yeah we'll [TS]

01:05:53   have to hire a bunch more people because [TS]

01:05:54   all those people that we didn't have to [TS]

01:05:55   hire because we used Android now we do [TS]

01:05:57   have to hire somewhere less people [TS]

01:05:58   because we're going to own our own OS we [TS]

01:06:00   bought it at a fire sale we have our own [TS]

01:06:02   OS and it's actually pretty good OS you [TS]

01:06:03   know and it's got a nice interfacing [TS]

01:06:05   maybe we can actually use that interface [TS]

01:06:06   and just make a custom Kindle Amazon [TS]

01:06:08   book store app thing on top of it they [TS]

01:06:10   do launchers into it right I think since [TS]

01:06:13   they haven't shipped anything since [TS]

01:06:14   they're not like they don't have an [TS]

01:06:15   installed base they're not screwing [TS]

01:06:16   anybody they'll have to worry about [TS]

01:06:17   compatibility now would be the time to [TS]

01:06:19   at least have the meeting and say so do [TS]

01:06:21   we keep going with his Android thing or [TS]

01:06:23   do we take a six-month hit and sort of [TS]

01:06:26   not so much start over but rejigger [TS]

01:06:29   things so that we you know let's buy [TS]

01:06:31   webOS let's put it on the hardware [TS]

01:06:33   they've already designed maybe wait a [TS]

01:06:34   year to get faster hardware to make it [TS]

01:06:36   more viable because as everyone said in [TS]

01:06:38   the other shows I can imagine the Amazon [TS]

01:06:39   tablet mostly being [TS]

01:06:41   a fancy color Kindle here's an awesome [TS]

01:06:43   way to buy stuff from the Amazon store [TS]

01:06:45   to read books and to watch movies it's [TS]

01:06:47   not here's something that competes with [TS]

01:06:49   the iPad it's it's you know it's a [TS]

01:06:52   magical colorful window through which [TS]

01:06:53   you can give money to Amazon in exchange [TS]

01:06:55   for entertainment that's it that's what [TS]

01:06:57   I think Amazon is buying especially in [TS]

01:07:00   the short term and that doesn't have to [TS]

01:07:03   have like Android Marketplace or their [TS]

01:07:06   own market for em I guess they already [TS]

01:07:08   didn't they already do the the Amazon [TS]

01:07:09   Marketplace thing for Android apps yeah [TS]

01:07:11   they did [TS]

01:07:12   what are those if you buy them they [TS]

01:07:15   don't run an Amazon devices though [TS]

01:07:16   because there is no Amazon device fund [TS]

01:07:17   to run on like they don't run on the [TS]

01:07:18   Kindle right so they could let that die [TS]

01:07:21   on the vine and say you know well we [TS]

01:07:24   have this amazon app marketplace but our [TS]

01:07:26   device is the Kindle color and you can [TS]

01:07:29   buy Kindle apps forward and like I'm [TS]

01:07:31   wondering like can they get from where [TS]

01:07:32   they are now to transitioning into that [TS]

01:07:35   colorful tablet through which you give [TS]

01:07:37   money to Amazon [TS]

01:07:38   in exchange for entertainment and then [TS]

01:07:40   long-term transition to an actual tablet [TS]

01:07:44   platform once they have a bazillion of [TS]

01:07:46   these things out there they say oh by [TS]

01:07:48   the way you know we've sold hundreds of [TS]

01:07:50   millions of Kindle colors or ever [TS]

01:07:52   they're going to be called on the next [TS]

01:07:54   version of it or maybe the version you [TS]

01:07:55   have already now that hardware is [TS]

01:07:56   actually a full-fledged tablet platform [TS]

01:07:58   you can actually run apps on and here's [TS]

01:07:59   an app store now you can start buying [TS]

01:08:00   them and suddenly they're a viable [TS]

01:08:02   competitor to Apple I don't think that's [TS]

01:08:05   in the cards short term but certainly [TS]

01:08:07   the long term prospects of competing [TS]

01:08:09   with Apple are much better if you own [TS]

01:08:10   your own operating system and much [TS]

01:08:11   better if your operating system is webOS [TS]

01:08:14   and not Android because Android [TS]

01:08:15   historically has not been able to [TS]

01:08:17   compete with Apple on fit and finish and [TS]

01:08:19   user interface whereas webOS has come [TS]

01:08:21   the closest to doing that despite it [TS]

01:08:23   being slow despite it being buggy so on [TS]

01:08:24   and so forth I said many shows ago we [TS]

01:08:27   were discussing with Dan what we thought [TS]

01:08:29   the prospects of webOS and HP why the [TS]

01:08:31   set of HP gives it chance you know if [TS]

01:08:32   they're willing to go into the long haul [TS]

01:08:33   they're a big company if they put the [TS]

01:08:35   money in time behind it they can give [TS]

01:08:37   webOS the opportunity that it didn't [TS]

01:08:39   have when it was independent in pom and [TS]

01:08:41   you know we see how that turned out give [TS]

01:08:43   it a chance forget it they killed the [TS]

01:08:46   baby in the crib which is fine that's [TS]

01:08:47   what they want to do for their business [TS]

01:08:48   you know but I just think that I'm I [TS]

01:08:53   still think web [TS]

01:08:55   has a chance I think it's an interesting [TS]

01:08:58   theory to with with Amazon that they [TS]

01:09:01   would pull in me cuz I mean look I mean [TS]

01:09:04   I don't know do you own a Kindle yeah so [TS]

01:09:06   okay so I bought the second-generation [TS]

01:09:09   one I mean and you know the software [TS]

01:09:11   isn't you know it's not great or [TS]

01:09:13   anything it works you read books on it [TS]

01:09:16   so they don't really have any major [TS]

01:09:19   accomplishments in terms of of creating [TS]

01:09:21   you know the some sort of software for a [TS]

01:09:23   tablet type device so it seems like it [TS]

01:09:26   seems like a good theory that they would [TS]

01:09:27   buy the the webOS and and use that and [TS]

01:09:33   the one thing that Amazon has different [TS]

01:09:35   and I think I mentioned this or somebody [TS]

01:09:36   mentioned some of the other shows as [TS]

01:09:37   well that that HP didn't have and and [TS]

01:09:41   all these other tablet makers don't have [TS]

01:09:42   that Apple does have that where they can [TS]

01:09:44   compete is the the e-commerce platform [TS]

01:09:48   and the the user accounts and the credit [TS]

01:09:51   cards and the existing customer base to [TS]

01:09:55   come in and actually compete to where [TS]

01:09:57   that's when the reasons I love Amazon is [TS]

01:09:59   because in the reasons I like my Kindle [TS]

01:10:01   and why I use the Kindle app even on my [TS]

01:10:02   iPad and on my iPhone as opposed to the [TS]

01:10:06   iBooks is because everything is already [TS]

01:10:09   there and you know they have my account [TS]

01:10:11   information it's already to me a [TS]

01:10:13   comfortable place to purchase purchase [TS]

01:10:14   books and if they had a for a lot of [TS]

01:10:17   people if they aren't maybe Apple [TS]

01:10:19   product users if they had a and I assume [TS]

01:10:22   this is probably why they're doing this [TS]

01:10:23   Amazon App Store for Android is that you [TS]

01:10:26   know if your comfort level is already [TS]

01:10:28   they're buying stuff from Amazon then it [TS]

01:10:30   seems like a good bet that people will [TS]

01:10:32   at least try out this you know whatever [TS]

01:10:35   type of tablet device that Amazon can [TS]

01:10:37   come up with if it's webOS I think [TS]

01:10:39   that's great because I agree with you I [TS]

01:10:40   mean webOS is is nice and and it would [TS]

01:10:45   be great to see some other some other [TS]

01:10:47   people competing in that space to kind [TS]

01:10:50   of keep keep everybody a little honest [TS]

01:10:51   and in a in a week or month apparently [TS]

01:10:54   that's been filled with extremely bold [TS]

01:10:57   moves agree with them or not agree with [TS]

01:10:58   them these are big plays motorola buying [TS]

01:11:00   Google or Google by Motorola is a big [TS]

01:11:02   play HP ditching its PC business [TS]

01:11:04   dropping webOS a big move right [TS]

01:11:06   this is the time to be doing big moves [TS]

01:11:08   and the best time if Amazon is going to [TS]

01:11:11   make the decision the best time to do it [TS]

01:11:12   is before you ship your thing before you [TS]

01:11:14   ship your Android tablet make the [TS]

01:11:16   decision now that this is a good Steve [TS]

01:11:18   Jobs aisle decision where you have this [TS]

01:11:19   meeting a Steve Jobs if he thought it [TS]

01:11:21   was the right thing to do [TS]

01:11:22   we're not hesitate to say I know you [TS]

01:11:23   guys work for two years on this product [TS]

01:11:25   but we're not shipping canceled that's [TS]

01:11:27   we're going to buy it we're going to try [TS]

01:11:29   to buy a webOS see if that works out and [TS]

01:11:30   if it does we're going to come up with a [TS]

01:11:32   new plan because we think this is the [TS]

01:11:33   best way forward and it wasn't an option [TS]

01:11:35   before because we couldn't afford webOS [TS]

01:11:37   maybe they bid for it against HP I don't [TS]

01:11:40   know it if I was Apple and I was [TS]

01:11:43   thinking long term I say who are my [TS]

01:11:45   competitors my competitors are the [TS]

01:11:48   entire ecosystem of Android vendors [TS]

01:11:50   which is ever-changing soup of people [TS]

01:11:52   which now sudden starts including Google [TS]

01:11:55   because they're going to make their own [TS]

01:11:55   hard buy through Motorola or the single [TS]

01:11:58   company Amazon so Amazon starts looming [TS]

01:12:01   large because you're like well Android [TS]

01:12:04   is much bigger I mean Amazon doesn't [TS]

01:12:05   even have a player in this market yet [TS]

01:12:07   they've got their Kindle fine but that's [TS]

01:12:08   not competing with us right well kind of [TS]

01:12:10   sort of but not really but if they do [TS]

01:12:13   enter the market as you pointed out [TS]

01:12:14   Amazon knows how to sell things and I [TS]

01:12:17   don't know how many Kindles Amazon has [TS]

01:12:18   sold but I bet it's a lot of them and [TS]

01:12:21   and think of the the Kindle Hardware [TS]

01:12:25   Amazon sold what I only assume has to be [TS]

01:12:28   millions of some of the worst Hardware [TS]

01:12:30   products ever made by man the Kindles [TS]

01:12:33   are not good hardware products not even [TS]

01:12:35   promote like this is not Amazon strength [TS]

01:12:37   clearly they've buttons all over them [TS]

01:12:39   the stupid keyboards you can't hold the [TS]

01:12:41   edges because the page turned things [TS]

01:12:42   happen they're flimsy they're getting [TS]

01:12:44   you know an Amazon knows like you know [TS]

01:12:48   certain things matter and certain things [TS]

01:12:50   don't and we are not expert hardware [TS]

01:12:52   makers but what matters to customers is [TS]

01:12:54   make it as cheap as possible and can I [TS]

01:12:55   read my books on it right can I find my [TS]

01:12:58   books can I buy my books kind of read my [TS]

01:12:59   books can I use it and they will put up [TS]

01:13:02   with crappy hardware horrible interfaces [TS]

01:13:04   having to use a little five-way stick so [TS]

01:13:06   we know of a touchscreen they'll put up [TS]

01:13:07   a lot of crap if you can get that price [TS]

01:13:09   low enough and if you can put it you [TS]

01:13:10   know put it in the hands of enough [TS]

01:13:11   customers Amazon is doing the the anti [TS]

01:13:15   Apple strategy here where it's like we [TS]

01:13:18   care about selling things we know how [TS]

01:13:20   to sell things we have the books we have [TS]

01:13:21   the markets we have the customers [TS]

01:13:23   compare it for example compare iBooks [TS]

01:13:25   with Kindle why is iBooks [TS]

01:13:27   I'm the iBooks bookstore why is that not [TS]

01:13:29   doing as well as Amazon selling ebooks [TS]

01:13:31   you know is it because the hardware is [TS]

01:13:34   better no the iPad hardware is better [TS]

01:13:36   than the Kindle hardware by all outward [TS]

01:13:38   appearances Apple should be doing much [TS]

01:13:40   better versus Amazon if you just look at [TS]

01:13:43   the hardware even their software now [TS]

01:13:44   Kindle spans will immediately say oh no [TS]

01:13:47   no you don't understand [TS]

01:13:48   the hardware may be crap but it's the [TS]

01:13:49   e-ink screen that makes the big [TS]

01:13:51   difference and Kindle proponents will [TS]

01:13:54   swear up and down there's no way you can [TS]

01:13:56   compete with the Kindle if you don't [TS]

01:13:57   have any ink screen this is the whole [TS]

01:13:58   reason we use this device Apple's not [TS]

01:14:00   interested in making the ink screen for [TS]

01:14:02   obvious reasons the Refresh doesn't lend [TS]

01:14:04   itself to what Apple wants to do with [TS]

01:14:05   its tablet platform but is you you can't [TS]

01:14:09   compete I think that's not even true I [TS]

01:14:11   think that if Amazon came out with a [TS]

01:14:14   Kindle that was as cheap as or cheaper [TS]

01:14:18   than the ink version but had a crappy [TS]

01:14:21   low quality elsi color LCD on it they [TS]

01:14:23   would still sell ballina and the few [TS]

01:14:26   diehard Kindle people be like oh crying [TS]

01:14:27   I want my e ink ink was so much better [TS]

01:14:29   it would be kind of like the people who [TS]

01:14:31   will cry someday when Apple cancels the [TS]

01:14:33   Mac Pro it's a drop in the bucket AB [TS]

01:14:36   Amazon could have been just as [TS]

01:14:38   successful not having these things be ve [TS]

01:14:41   Inc because despite what people despite [TS]

01:14:44   what the big hardcore Kindle readers [TS]

01:14:46   think people will read off LCDs I've [TS]

01:14:49   gone through this before and all the [TS]

01:14:50   articles on ours people will read off [TS]

01:14:52   LCDs people read off crappy LCDs they [TS]

01:14:55   will they will do it oh now I think the [TS]

01:14:58   e-ink has been a big factor because this [TS]

01:15:00   differentiator to get up - I don't think [TS]

01:15:02   remember was pointing suppose maybe [TS]

01:15:03   Marcos that if you're going to compete [TS]

01:15:05   with Apple don't do what Apple is doing [TS]

01:15:07   by going with eating the big thing that [TS]

01:15:09   makes it successful is not because ink [TS]

01:15:11   is so awesome that every single customer [TS]

01:15:12   can clearly see that it's better than a [TS]

01:15:14   color LCD in fact I would imagine if you [TS]

01:15:15   put the two things in front of people a [TS]

01:15:17   huge amount of them would pick the color [TS]

01:15:19   LCD just because it's color despite all [TS]

01:15:22   the other issues but it's been [TS]

01:15:23   successful because it's not like the [TS]

01:15:25   iPad it's a different thing so people [TS]

01:15:27   don't comparison shop people don't say [TS]

01:15:28   well I can get an iPad or I can get a [TS]

01:15:29   Kindle now they're totally different [TS]

01:15:31   it's differentiated product is this is [TS]

01:15:33   reading books you want to read books we [TS]

01:15:35   sell this thing and hey it looks [TS]

01:15:36   different doesn't a screen look [TS]

01:15:37   different to you it's not backlit it [TS]

01:15:38   looks kind of like paper blah blah blah [TS]

01:15:40   but the point is it does not look like [TS]

01:15:41   the iPad it's not in competition you [TS]

01:15:44   don't you're not comparison shopping [TS]

01:15:45   these two things you want to read books [TS]

01:15:47   get a Kindle get a nook now then a color [TS]

01:15:49   with the LCD screen is it everything but [TS]

01:15:51   back when the looks were inked right [TS]

01:15:52   this is a book reader and that's a [TS]

01:15:54   tablet oh and by the way our book reader [TS]

01:15:55   is like 100 and something bucks it's not [TS]

01:15:57   a $500 thing all right so that [TS]

01:15:59   differentiation has helped them sell a [TS]

01:16:01   lot of things but now they've got their [TS]

01:16:03   foot in the door and we got the critical [TS]

01:16:04   mass there are tons of people who are [TS]

01:16:05   Kindle readers and if you could sell [TS]

01:16:07   them a hundred and fifty dollar color [TS]

01:16:09   LCD Kindle reading thing I think they [TS]

01:16:11   would sell a ton of them and I think [TS]

01:16:14   they could slowly transform that into a [TS]

01:16:16   platform that competes with Apple in [TS]

01:16:19   terms of money made through it not in [TS]

01:16:22   terms of selling to the same customers [TS]

01:16:23   but it's like who's making money selling [TS]

01:16:26   mobile devices well Amazon's making them [TS]

01:16:27   because they sell these devices that let [TS]

01:16:29   you buy Amazon stuff from anywhere in [TS]

01:16:31   the world any way you want and consume [TS]

01:16:32   their content they rent you video they [TS]

01:16:34   stream your movies you can buy movies on [TS]

01:16:36   it you can buy books on it everything's [TS]

01:16:39   all synced integrated Wireless blah blah [TS]

01:16:40   blah and Amazon makes a ton of money as [TS]

01:16:43   a retailer or that or Apple's thing [TS]

01:16:44   where they make a ton of money on the [TS]

01:16:45   hardware and little incidentals selling [TS]

01:16:48   the software and stuff like that so I [TS]

01:16:49   think this this interplay will be [TS]

01:16:52   interesting I'm not as interested in who [TS]

01:16:54   can try to compete with the iPad with [TS]

01:16:56   Windows 8 with Android tablet stuff like [TS]

01:16:58   that those guys have shown that they [TS]

01:17:00   don't know what they're doing and they [TS]

01:17:01   haven't figured out of the compete [TS]

01:17:02   Amazon has not played his cards yet [TS]

01:17:04   Amazon is is waiting and I think they [TS]

01:17:06   made a big big strong opening move with [TS]

01:17:08   the Kindle showing we know how to get [TS]

01:17:11   things done even though we don't have [TS]

01:17:13   the same skill set as Apple we can't [TS]

01:17:14   make good hardware we make crappy ugly [TS]

01:17:16   hardware that's complicated and hard to [TS]

01:17:17   use right but we find the two we three [TS]

01:17:20   things that are important we make the [TS]

01:17:21   purchase experience easy and we know our [TS]

01:17:24   audience we knew that book nerds would [TS]

01:17:25   love this because it doesn't have a [TS]

01:17:27   backlit screen and that that's how we [TS]

01:17:28   got our foot in the door now we're [TS]

01:17:29   selling them to everybody and their [TS]

01:17:31   grandmother has these things people who [TS]

01:17:32   don't know what he ink is and I've never [TS]

01:17:34   heard of it right yep so this is what [TS]

01:17:36   I'm I'm looking at for the future I'm [TS]

01:17:38   looking at what om is on do with this [TS]

01:17:40   tablet will they decide to go with their [TS]

01:17:41   Android thing will they start competing [TS]

01:17:44   with Apple now or will they stay in the [TS]

01:17:47   you book get over as long as they [TS]

01:17:48   possibly can and then like leap out many [TS]

01:17:50   years later have there been any hints [TS]

01:17:52   for for a time line for Amazon tablet [TS]

01:17:55   like you said it's the biggest you know [TS]

01:17:57   known secret out there yeah there I [TS]

01:18:01   think Amazon is also doing very well [TS]

01:18:02   taking a lesson from Apple and saying [TS]

01:18:04   let's not talk about it right let's not [TS]

01:18:06   they're not even admitting I don't think [TS]

01:18:08   they've even admitted that this is such [TS]

01:18:09   a project exist like they are not at [TS]

01:18:11   trade shows showing and were thinking to [TS]

01:18:13   make Anna stand holding this thing up [TS]

01:18:14   and it'll be out in a year and then it [TS]

01:18:16   gets get like so Amazon has the luxury [TS]

01:18:17   thanks to this wonderful strategy they [TS]

01:18:20   learn from Apple to if they wanted to [TS]

01:18:22   can the whole project by Web OS start [TS]

01:18:25   over they could do that now because you [TS]

01:18:26   can't say oh well where's my Amazon [TS]

01:18:28   tablet so what what are you talking [TS]

01:18:29   about Amazon Taba we never announced a [TS]

01:18:30   tablet you're just making things up you [TS]

01:18:32   have no idea what we're doing internally [TS]

01:18:33   so I assume that the Amazon tablet will [TS]

01:18:37   ship in early 2012 uh at the latest q1 [TS]

01:18:41   2012 of the latest if they don't ditch [TS]

01:18:43   their all plant and I assume they will [TS]

01:18:44   not ditch their plan despite all my [TS]

01:18:46   fantasies about whether the less I [TS]

01:18:47   assume Amazon will not touch it but the [TS]

01:18:49   ten-foot pole well they may have that [TS]

01:18:50   meeting I hope they do have that meeting [TS]

01:18:51   but I think the end result of that [TS]

01:18:53   meeting is will probably be that they're [TS]

01:18:55   not going to make that kind of move at [TS]

01:18:56   this point they want to get into the [TS]

01:18:58   market they want to get going in fact I [TS]

01:18:59   would imagine if I was in the meeting [TS]

01:19:00   and I was told to argue against buying [TS]

01:19:02   webOS I would say look this thing that [TS]

01:19:05   we're going to ship no one can tell what [TS]

01:19:07   the heck operating system is running [TS]

01:19:08   anyway we're not selling apps on it it's [TS]

01:19:10   only way for people to buy Amazon stuff [TS]

01:19:12   worst case let's have this meeting again [TS]

01:19:14   in a year if webOS still hasn't been [TS]

01:19:16   purchased or even if it has we can get [TS]

01:19:18   it for even cheaper right and we can [TS]

01:19:20   swap out our operating system underneath [TS]

01:19:22   our next version of the whatever we're [TS]

01:19:25   calling our tablet and people won't even [TS]

01:19:26   know because there's no apps or anything [TS]

01:19:27   it will just pour it all our you know [TS]

01:19:29   you don't I mean like you you're not [TS]

01:19:31   closing the door on a webOS buy in a [TS]

01:19:33   future having a real tile platform by [TS]

01:19:35   not buying it now so ship what you have [TS]

01:19:37   now get it out the door start getting it [TS]

01:19:40   into the market even if it's ugly [TS]

01:19:41   don't settle apps on it right and then [TS]

01:19:44   we'll look at this again in a year and [TS]

01:19:45   maybe the next version will actually be [TS]

01:19:47   running by the West unbeknownst to all [TS]

01:19:48   our customers sorry I'm an Amazon if [TS]

01:19:50   you're listening I have the meeting let [TS]

01:19:53   make John Syracuse are happy yeah it had [TS]

01:19:55   on medium its conference me in [TS]

01:19:56   conference [TS]

01:19:57   exactly cut maybe that maybe they were [TS]

01:19:59   calling you me that's what that 200 [TS]

01:20:01   sound was but I can make strong or even [TS]

01:20:02   sporran against alright alright well [TS]

01:20:04   those are some bold those are some bold [TS]

01:20:06   bold predictions but I think it I think [TS]

01:20:08   it all makes sense so well maybe this is [TS]

01:20:10   a good place to to wrap up then yeah I [TS]

01:20:12   think so all right well this has been [TS]

01:20:15   fun so yeah thanks for thanks for having [TS]

01:20:18   me on in place of Dan and as far as I [TS]

01:20:23   know then he'll be he'll be back in his [TS]

01:20:25   regular seat that I've been keeping warm [TS]

01:20:27   for him for the last couple weeks yeah [TS]

01:20:30   and actually I will not be here next [TS]

01:20:31   week I'll be on vacation so I won't be [TS]

01:20:33   having a show next week probably unless [TS]

01:20:35   unless we manage to squeeze it in the [TS]

01:20:37   weekend after or do two shows and the [TS]

01:20:38   week after that so I assume by the time [TS]

01:20:40   that I'm ready to podcast again Dan will [TS]

01:20:41   be back [TS]

01:20:42   Dantley ready to podcast with me but [TS]

01:20:43   it's been fun great yes absolutely [TS]

01:20:45   thanks John and we'll talk to you soon [TS]

01:20:48   okay what am i sure we thank - greentech [TS]

01:20:52   for doing the bandwidth for this episode [TS]

01:20:55   of hypercritical and of course fresh [TS]

01:20:57   books com be sure to go over there and [TS]

01:20:59   check out their free account and also [TS]

01:21:03   source bits comm if you have an app idea [TS]

01:21:06   that you want to see come to life check [TS]

01:21:07   out source bits com [TS]