0:00:00the Anton comparable number 162
0:00:07october2013 welcome back to be
0:00:13comfortable podcast I'm your host Jason
0:00:14L and we are live in a room with people
0:00:18in portland oregon where at the XOXO
0:00:21festival which is a celebration of indy
0:00:24content creators and i'm joined in this
0:00:27room by three guess frequent visitor to
0:00:31the podcast Glenn fleischmann has
0:00:33returned hello Glenn hello I'm currently
0:00:35very sleeves of tattoos I've been
0:00:37important for three days they
0:00:38spontaneously form on my arm it's like
0:00:41magic
0:00:41it's crazy that's what the air in
0:00:43portland does greg NOS who only appears
0:00:46on a comparable podcast that are
0:00:48recorded live because he doesn't know
0:00:50how to use a computer is here hi Greg hi
0:00:52it's good to have you
0:00:54thank you and special cast Jeff Carlson
0:00:57joins us
0:00:58is this your first time have you been on
0:00:59i have been on been on your own without
0:01:02me right you were on the air in the
0:01:04aaron sorkin episode that's right yeah I
0:01:06I took your place so i am also only
0:01:08alive performed only one of the cards
0:01:10right
0:01:11not on the computer you're Amish
0:01:12basically basically i can bring my own
0:01:15equipment and I'm i don't understand
0:01:17these things that are in front of me
0:01:18that are stealing my voice yeah i know
0:01:21they are sorry I've stolen parts of your
0:01:23soul that's just how it is
0:01:24there's nothing like so I thought we
0:01:26would talk about it in the spirit of
0:01:30XOXO I thought we would talk about indie
0:01:33projects and and and culture and people
0:01:36creating things outside the bounds of
0:01:38sort of mainstream mainstream media
0:01:41distribution and i'm not i'm not sure
0:01:45what kind of stuff you guys are
0:01:46consuming that goes outside outside
0:01:49those bounds I've got a couple of
0:01:50thoughts i'm wondering Glenn you do a
0:01:52whole podcast about people who create
0:01:54new things and different things the new
0:01:55disruptors do you have some favorite
0:01:57indie culture stuff that you consume
0:01:59look up with like general and specific
0:02:02the general thing is I keep finding
0:02:03myself over time more and more
0:02:05gravitating to things that are created
0:02:06by a small number of people and it's
0:02:08funny I think it goes back even to the
0:02:10software
0:02:11where I like a lot of the software that
0:02:13I use on a regular basis is from small
0:02:15companies there's a few things I used
0:02:16for mass produce once but it's like that
0:02:18there's actually connection and software
0:02:20you can get things fixed and added you
0:02:21can't do that in media but I find that
0:02:24like there's a unless you George Lucas
0:02:26that's right
0:02:27please change that photoshop for me
0:02:28thank you but the leader like a indie
0:02:31game the movie is a great example of
0:02:33that is to filmmakers and they appear to
0:02:36last year's XOXO they're attending this
0:02:38year's they just finished kind of
0:02:39four-year odyssey of it and it's a great
0:02:42moving film and it was really two people
0:02:45work they brought in some people at the
0:02:46very end for post-production they had a
0:02:49composer to write the music for these
0:02:51two peoples and Jamie spin you know
0:02:54essentially spent four years of their
0:02:55lives producing a film which the filming
0:02:57was really done like three years ago
0:02:59they produced one version they produce
0:03:01the blocks tradition and you can feel
0:03:04the hand of individual people on one
0:03:07work that's created i was just a packs
0:03:09in seattle pax prime the big gaming
0:03:11event and I walked all over the place
0:03:13i'm not a game run fairly casual guy and
0:03:16i found that the big stuff was
0:03:17interesting i'm curious what people are
0:03:18playing from the big you know studios
0:03:20and microsoft and nintendo and what have
0:03:23you but there's an indian mini booth
0:03:24where a bunch of developers get together
0:03:26they buy space and they buy one big
0:03:28space they show small business than one
0:03:30of the booths is like this micro booth
0:03:32in which tiny tiny developers are
0:03:34crammed into this tiny times you can bet
0:03:36can't walk through and it's um and all
0:03:38that stuff was lovely like know two
0:03:40things look the same as some of it was
0:03:42artistic and like you know dramatic
0:03:45painterly and some of it was out of
0:03:47control so it was beautiful 3d but it
0:03:49was all the most interesting stuff was
0:03:51packed into this one boot space and the
0:03:53rest of it was mainstream and just all
0:03:56sort of looked a little bit of like to
0:03:57me to stop their better is that I was
0:04:01practicing Raptors just said i was
0:04:03reading for like small people to come
0:04:05out with tiny little new nano computers
0:04:07great what about you do i do you only
0:04:09watch only watch sitcoms on Monday
0:04:11nights on CBS is that you heard what did
0:04:13I that's why
0:04:14demographic yes your announcement of
0:04:17yours against um yeah i agree with Glenn
0:04:20is that I'm what you get out of this
0:04:22indie stuff is a singular vision people
0:04:24who really care about these projects
0:04:26they can make money from them and that's
0:04:28one of the points of XOXO is not only
0:04:32producing the stuff but using the
0:04:33internet newer technologies to find an
0:04:35audience and distribute it and that has
0:04:37allowed me as a consumer of this stuff
0:04:40to find it much easier in fact have too
0:04:42much of it and so the but the stuff that
0:04:48I do find its things that I that would
0:04:51have been passed around on videotape
0:04:52before they would have been produced
0:04:53they may have been more difficult to
0:04:55produce they may have taken much longer
0:04:56because they didn't have the tools but
0:04:58now you can stumble across professional
0:05:01quality movies like indie game which is
0:05:04terrific and because of the internet and
0:05:08I realize that's not a great insight but
0:05:10for me as a consumer I don't have to go
0:05:13anywhere which is really really nice i
0:05:15don't have to talk to people haha i
0:05:18don't have to do that interact with
0:05:20anybody to have this horrific stuff
0:05:21finding its way to me and the fact that
0:05:25it it is a passion project that is now
0:05:28easier to produce easier to distribute
0:05:29and easier to consume is there's so much
0:05:34more of it because of that and that
0:05:36makes it just the whole process becomes
0:05:38simpler you can feel it when a project
0:05:40is a passion project you can feel it
0:05:42when people aren't doing it for the
0:05:44money it's great when they make money
0:05:46but that didn't begin the project and it
0:05:49didn't sustain the project whose
0:05:50obsession that got them started
0:05:52sounds like a tagline movie was
0:05:54obsession i got them started but it is
0:05:56it's that thing that began with
0:05:57obsession ended with customer service
0:05:59back by midnight assembly brought that
0:06:02one by one but it's true is that this is
0:06:04goes back to like the blogging days
0:06:05people would ask me how do i started
0:06:07blogging I'm like is there something
0:06:08you're interested in that you can't stop
0:06:10talking about and did jeff carlson is
0:06:12not again because everything understand
0:06:14everything and I shared office space
0:06:15with him so he knows what I mean let me
0:06:17tell you about Wi-Fi that's not that's
0:06:19not what student pride but it shows that
0:06:21you have to have a session that drives
0:06:23you and
0:06:23it used to be you couldn't either turn
0:06:25that into a career make money from it or
0:06:27find an audience and now you can take
0:06:29your obsession and you can find a way to
0:06:33translate it into something that is not
0:06:34a mass market but that can reach an
0:06:36audience and then you're you know
0:06:39something you're doing something that
0:06:40feels productive because you're
0:06:41interacting with the community that
0:06:42appreciates what you're doing and I
0:06:44think the modern version of indie stuff
0:06:47started with software back in the
0:06:49eighties you people with you know ziploc
0:06:52bag a disc of the game they made and
0:06:54advertised in the back of a magazine and
0:06:56send it off to people in games got big
0:06:57and that kind of died down for a little
0:06:59while but with the introduction of
0:07:00mobile devices in the app store and the
0:07:04introduced the ability to for a single
0:07:07developer to create a passion project
0:07:08have it distributed worldwide to a
0:07:11single source and then reap the benefits
0:07:13and now the tools that allow that are
0:07:15also coming to other media so that
0:07:18somebody who is producing a movie like
0:07:22last year at the indy game people that
0:07:24XOXO talked about the ways they
0:07:25distributed they're distributing through
0:07:26steam which is of course a platform to
0:07:29distributing video games they're
0:07:31distributing through downloads directly
0:07:34from their own site that distributing
0:07:35through distributing through VFX and
0:07:37like say if somebody had a small indie
0:07:41magazine that could be distributed
0:07:42electronically never heard of such a
0:07:44thing how would that work exactly
0:07:47first you have somebody who creates it's
0:07:49jen is another guy comes along and buys
0:07:51beer genius who puts hundreds of
0:07:53thousands of dollars with his own time
0:07:55before getting an app that is awesome
0:07:56that's the solution brilliant i think
0:07:59the fact that an ingrate just touched on
0:08:01this but you know for a long time we've
0:08:03heard about how like the tools will let
0:08:06you make anything like you can you can
0:08:08make something United movie in which i
0:08:10wrote about four years you know like you
0:08:13can build your own moving you can do all
0:08:15this time you can create create create
0:08:17but then there was always that hurdle up
0:08:19okay now you've got it
0:08:21what do you do with it and so it's nice
0:08:24that there's so much focus on how to get
0:08:26it out there
0:08:27how to you know like what happens when
0:08:30you're halfway through the project and
0:08:32you know what needs to be done and you
0:08:33absolutely do not have the resources to
0:08:35finish it that the two guys that were
0:08:38talking last night at a little film
0:08:43festival part that film festival product
0:08:45XOXO they have a movie called strip that
0:08:48they're in the middle of working on and
0:08:49they have 300 hours of interviews with
0:08:52comic book creators and comic comic
0:08:55strip artists basically comes to
0:08:56acquiring yeah and so they are you know
0:08:59like they need to do something with all
0:09:01of that and by having a kickstarter and
0:09:05you know different resources they can
0:09:08actually finish it rather than have it
0:09:09just be the passion project that they've
0:09:12been working on in little bits here and
0:09:13there that you know just might fade out
0:09:16this used to be the software thing we're
0:09:18talking about is that is that software
0:09:19was the leading edge because the thing
0:09:21you have to distribute was bits and you
0:09:22can put on a floppy disk and then a CD
0:09:24and you can email it then you could be
0:09:26no torrent like there's a lot of ways to
0:09:28show you software and it was you know
0:09:30you could take credit cards and software
0:09:31costs enough that you could get into the
0:09:33credit card system there's paypal and
0:09:35whatever but physical goods or things
0:09:37that were media like funding a movie it
0:09:40was movie was too big to download a
0:09:41while ago and it was impossible to
0:09:43collect lots of money so it's like this
0:09:46felt like you could make the movie the
0:09:48tools were good enough on a computer and
0:09:49you can get decent of cameras cheap
0:09:51enough you could make something looked
0:09:52really good a few years ago
0:09:54there's no way you could fund it and
0:09:55there was no way you could distribute
0:09:56unless you got into like video stores
0:09:59maybe itunes not only pre-funding but
0:10:01then the post profit afterwards the
0:10:04district with distributing times profit
0:10:05that's right because remember indie game
0:10:07actually this is why don't we will talk
0:10:09about the whole time but like that was
0:10:10their thing too is they went to Sundance
0:10:12with the movie almost two years ago they
0:10:14gotta editing award and they got
0:10:17approached by distributors and they talk
0:10:19to them all they looked at the deal they
0:10:20said you know we will lose all control
0:10:23we can't send a movie out to the backers
0:10:25outside the United States for like a
0:10:26year and a half there like all these
0:10:28restrictions to maybe do it ourselves
0:10:29they called movie theaters the book
0:10:31stuff they got us corporate sponsor
0:10:33adobe love them because they were using
0:10:35final cut pro and so
0:10:37pro bono vacated the my godmother using
0:10:39a premier Premier front of the other
0:10:41using Adobe products that they were so
0:10:42indie game the sorry I didn't pan out
0:10:45that's what I can explore other people
0:10:48guys aren't getting paid by Adobe Oh
0:10:50said too much and put them and maybe the
0:10:53butt so they they want their own
0:10:55independent even with distribution of it
0:10:58I'm not just like downloads and discs
0:10:59but even like to the movie theaters
0:11:01because you can you don't need to make
0:11:03400 reels of film now you can take a
0:11:06digital disc and that's even fighting to
0:11:07the last year even further
0:11:09yeah I was um it's fascinating to see
0:11:12all the it's not just Kickstarter now
0:11:14there's IndieGoGo and there are other
0:11:15other sites that are doing different
0:11:17models for this and and and you see you
0:11:19do see two different models here you see
0:11:20people who are known who are able to cut
0:11:25out the middleman in some cases or
0:11:26change how they do their business and
0:11:29then you see complete unknowns like
0:11:32these filmmakers who have a subject that
0:11:35people like and want to see and are able
0:11:37to fund it and essentially they are
0:11:39pre-ordering but they're proving that
0:11:40there's an audience and these people
0:11:43can't afford to put their own money in
0:11:45upfront but they know that there's an
0:11:48audience and the audience helps make it
0:11:49which in some ways I mean that's how I
0:11:51always thought Kickstarter was at its
0:11:53core the most important way to do it was
0:11:55there's an audience for this thing but
0:11:57you can't you know make it for them
0:12:00without the kickstart so I most of my
0:12:04experience I got to be honest most of my
0:12:05experience with indie stuff is artists
0:12:08that I was aware of already but
0:12:10especially in the music industry where
0:12:12traditionally musicians the economics
0:12:15have been so terrible that a lot of
0:12:17musicians are now going direct to their
0:12:19audiences and bypassing the the studios
0:12:22and doing projects on their own
0:12:25I there's a couple music artist Mike
0:12:29Cody who we used to be in the band soul
0:12:30coughing released a an album of his old
0:12:34band songs that he recorded and he had a
0:12:37bunch of bonus things as you do i think
0:12:39it was an IndieGoGo project but you know
0:12:41you could get an acoustic album and
0:12:43there's a lot of back-and-forth about
0:12:44what he was going to do there but it was
0:12:46something that was kinda outside the
0:12:48realm of the usual i'm going to put out
0:12:49a release and then
0:12:50artist really like imogen heap decided
0:12:53to release her tracks for her next album
0:12:56as she was recording them instead of
0:12:58waiting for years and then releasing the
0:13:00album and so her album is gonna come out
0:13:02early next year and I've already heard
0:13:03half the tracks already bought half the
0:13:05tracks its kind of brilliant from a
0:13:06business standpoint but also i was happy
0:13:08to subscribe to you know attract every
0:13:11two to three months instead of waiting
0:13:14for the old model
0:13:15well this is what's happening to is I
0:13:16think you're getting the Baroque effect
0:13:18of having so much money pouring into the
0:13:19system when you find that people
0:13:20actually want to support the artist
0:13:22directly especially in the music
0:13:23business but was in film book cartooning
0:13:27cartoonist the musicians have made a
0:13:29terrible living is like cartoons or even
0:13:31lower down the heat in there at one of
0:13:33cartoonist I know now it's not like the
0:13:34rolling in money but it's like someone
0:13:36have the day job and this is now let's
0:13:38make a full living and they don't have
0:13:40to worry about the day job somewhere
0:13:41able to quit the day job because it's
0:13:43enough money that they can then move
0:13:45into the new project so they're
0:13:47superstars in every field but the thing
0:13:49I was thinking about is that the the
0:13:50broke part is that i'm Kickstarter's
0:13:52probably on track to bring it on a
0:13:54foreigner finder million dollars this
0:13:56year I think something like that really
0:13:57supported billion dollars and completed
0:13:59pledges IndieGoGo is smaller but it
0:14:02might be I think I'm sure like twenty
0:14:03twenty-five percent of that they've got
0:14:05that different model like Kickstarter
0:14:06you have to raise all the money you sent
0:14:08out to raise you don't get any of it you
0:14:10can go over IndieGoGo you can say I only
0:14:12want to raise whatever I raised
0:14:14there's now a bunch of product sites
0:14:16where there's a it's a different compact
0:14:18with the buyer so it's we release money
0:14:20to the product designer only as they
0:14:23complete benchmarks or we're going to
0:14:26fully vet there's one site that's we're
0:14:28going to fully vet the product rating
0:14:29with engineering firms we're gonna have
0:14:31the ledge see if this is feasible before
0:14:33we even let someone listen it's not
0:14:34we're gonna have to go back and iterate
0:14:36so the only stuff we list we feel will
0:14:38be a little further along and more
0:14:39likely produced and so they're so it's
0:14:42not just this monolithic like you go to
0:14:44Kickstarter's one approach there's
0:14:46enough money that you're seeing like you
0:14:47know these sites could be doing 20
0:14:48million dollars 50 million dollars
0:14:50there's a lot of nature like I mean
0:14:51there's a porn version Kickstarter hmm
0:14:53you can go out and get you know fund
0:14:56your fetish film what's called and asked
0:14:58us for some specific examples of indie
0:14:59art that i consider want to talk about
0:15:01haha be born there
0:15:03predictive is a call plz kick-started it
0:15:05just kick something like that yes well
0:15:10I've wanted to mix stopper right
0:15:13alternators when I was gonna I was gonna
0:15:14ask you that you talk about the the
0:15:17indie artists that you pursued that
0:15:19you've pursued have been label artists
0:15:21that have gone independent right right
0:15:23because the economics are problematic
0:15:25right and that or maybe artists that are
0:15:27on a label but want to do a different
0:15:30method of of releasing to the fans
0:15:32because they know that eventually
0:15:33they'll be a studio album that's in the
0:15:36old channel but could I do something in
0:15:38the intervening three years while making
0:15:40this album so there's a couple different
0:15:41right and then those are people that
0:15:42have built audiences already yeah it's
0:15:44not just one of the reasons that it's
0:15:45easy for them to do this
0:15:47yes just like just like zach braff or or
0:15:49you know Veronica Mars and there's a
0:15:51whole debate about whether they deserve
0:15:52to be on Kickstarter because they have
0:15:54access to your money and I think that
0:15:56deserve is not a question of it there's
0:15:58proof that people who come into the
0:16:00system the the crowdfunding system
0:16:03because of these larger projects then
0:16:04contribute to other stuff i was going to
0:16:06ask you have you sought out other
0:16:08artists through Kickstarter or through
0:16:10other crowdfunding means well I
0:16:12certainly don't use Kickstarter as a as
0:16:14a way to discuss we recommend it's not a
0:16:17discovery medium right so so I I'm you
0:16:20know you will find project music hard
0:16:22too because you really do want to listen
0:16:23to it and and and whether you find it
0:16:25through alternative means or mainstream
0:16:28means you know you want to make that
0:16:30connection to like this stuff and then
0:16:31you follow you follow that it they're
0:16:33different models i was going to mention
0:16:34in books that you know self-publishing
0:16:37we've been talking about Kickstarter
0:16:38crown fighting but self-publishing there
0:16:40have been several successes and and
0:16:42again I'll leave
0:16:4350 shades of grey Greg to talk about
0:16:45mice expertise as well have a whole
0:16:49other world of toilet fanfic what's up
0:16:51big so I was going to mention wool by
0:16:53Hugh Howey which is a best-selling novel
0:16:55that's now been released by a
0:16:56traditional publisher but it started as
0:16:57a series of novel let's basically
0:16:59released by toilet and how it's not
0:17:01twilight fan effect on although you can
0:17:04do that on amazon now it was it was
0:17:07released by him directly self-published
0:17:09amazon and it became wildly successful
0:17:11and is essentially a best-seller now and
0:17:14I think it was a nanowrimo in fact so
0:17:16now
0:17:17travel writing month disclosure i'm on
0:17:19the board everybody should write a novel
0:17:21in November Greg's gonna kill himself
0:17:24I'll write a story about Greg but i'm
0:17:26launching a kickstarter for someone to
0:17:27write a novel for the excellent i can't
0:17:29wait to read that the Kickstarter not
0:17:32the novel idea huh
0:17:34you have somebody write a novel then you
0:17:35buy it from them let's get this is money
0:17:37yes but she wouldn't we you know that
0:17:39it's a it's a pretty good book actually
0:17:41and it's what's funny about it is that I
0:17:44they bundle it up into an omnibus
0:17:46edition and that's the one that was
0:17:48published in a more traditional means
0:17:51and that that happens to a lot of this
0:17:53stuff to is once it gets discovered
0:17:55sometimes it just like webcomics that
0:17:57turn into printed books it's sort of
0:17:58like after the fact once you it's almost
0:18:01like the crowdfunding or internet
0:18:03popularity becomes a filter that it's so
0:18:05hard it's not that there is some good
0:18:07stuff out there it's it's hard to find
0:18:08it in if you're a publisher if your
0:18:09mainstream up with the money it's like
0:18:12where do you put in money it's like oh
0:18:13that's the the problem of editors and
0:18:16gatekeepers has now been transferred to
0:18:18the audience yeah is why the reason I
0:18:20asked you about whether you found
0:18:21anybody knew through Kickstarter
0:18:22crowdfunding is because you can go out
0:18:25there and swing a cat and hit 50 new
0:18:27things that you might be interested in
0:18:29and it's it's the mainstream media as
0:18:32well as producing an enormous amount of
0:18:33amazing stuff right and so now you have
0:18:36these sluice gates opened a terrific
0:18:39mainstream media available terrific
0:18:41indymedia and how do you filter that
0:18:43what this also that's the it's the the
0:18:47niche thing know the nice thing which
0:18:50word is that was quite a small space
0:18:52that happy the nice media we're in
0:18:55northridge el museo need the nice thing
0:18:57is that you have um there's small
0:18:59audience as you gaze into the
0:19:00Kickstarter the Kickstarter also cases
0:19:02it to you
0:19:03wow it doesn't bring me down I hope fun
0:19:08the it's that every small audience is
0:19:11whether the gatekeeper thing that the
0:19:12audience is not the gatekeeper as a
0:19:14certain level like you can have a
0:19:15fundamental there's the issue that the
0:19:17audience is fine what they like to write
0:19:19so Amanda Hocking is the big example
0:19:20where she was telling all these millions
0:19:22of vampire novels and and so forth and
0:19:24made a fortune selling a very
0:19:25specifically was Taylor but you also
0:19:27have we talked
0:19:28over and over again about the thousand
0:19:30true fan SI that kevin kelly roads it's
0:19:32seminal because it took a concept sort
0:19:36of codified it under one term that the
0:19:37idea that you know he was saying p1000
0:19:40true fans I think it was a musician you
0:19:42can probably make a living or
0:19:43programming from it but what turns out i
0:19:45think that be true is it scalable so you
0:19:46can have a hundred true fans and produce
0:19:49certain kinds of things you know your
0:19:50ballet troupe in a small town or your
0:19:52gear it's every one side project but you
0:19:54have a hundred people who come to every
0:19:56performance and that's that I you look
0:19:59familiar to me
0:20:01I tried to do the two tests are you can
0:20:02end but you can have the bat-rope you
0:20:04can happen to have a thousand people you
0:20:06have 10,000 hundred thousand so the ship
0:20:09famous people use Kickstarter issues
0:20:11well you know everybody's a little bit
0:20:14payments or could but it's like they can
0:20:16raise five million dollars for Veronica
0:20:17Mars movie but somebody else might raise
0:20:19five thousand dollars that is equally as
0:20:21significant for them right
0:20:22the scale at which they're working for a
0:20:24fanfic veronica mars movie exactly right
0:20:26handheld cameras running for and
0:20:28actually getting something that just
0:20:31just call it better do I sign up online
0:20:33not know this
0:20:34I mean this is one of the that this
0:20:35discussion has gone interesting
0:20:37direction which is and I could expect
0:20:39nothing less from you gentlemen have you
0:20:41have you not listened to the podcast
0:20:42yeah my podcast heart's beating really
0:20:45know the UH the idea that you don't you
0:20:50know a publisher is seeking a hit
0:20:52they're seeking a hit a very very
0:20:55because they know that a lot of the
0:20:57things aren't going to make it and some
0:20:58are going to break even and they want
0:21:00hits and when you're in this with it
0:21:03with distribution mechanisms we have met
0:21:05with ebooks and print on demand and a
0:21:08small run press and web comics and
0:21:10podcasts many podcasts are not every
0:21:14podcast is from a corporate behemoths
0:21:16like the uncomfortable
0:21:18oh you know the it's you don't need to
0:21:23have a hit that reaches a million people
0:21:25i mean like on TV a TV show that reaches
0:21:29a million people in unless that you know
0:21:31depending on the channel and the
0:21:32demographics it's kind of a failure
0:21:33happens
0:21:34travelocity well it depends now actually
0:21:37these days some shows on cable if you
0:21:38get a million you're doing ok well on
0:21:40CBS but a podcast that reaches 15 or 20
0:21:44thousand people you know that that's a
0:21:46wild success in and and it doesn't have
0:21:49to reach a million you can be you know
0:21:52you can be uncomfortable and reach
0:21:5415,000 people and be okay because we let
0:21:56those are the because the comfortable
0:21:58listenership those are the best 15,000
0:22:00people on the face of the earth
0:22:02let me flip it around to there's another
0:22:04part which is as a creator as an artist
0:22:06and Jeff Cross has written and enormous
0:22:08number of computer of technical books or
0:22:10technology books that brings us to our
0:22:12sponsor he works of Jeff Carl's going to
0:22:14the circumstances and all his books are
0:22:17fully edible the ok but I'm good
0:22:22so just written Jeff catoctin this
0:22:23experience being a ton of books when you
0:22:25want to talk about the hit concepts and
0:22:28terms any steps so you work for
0:22:29conventional computer but publishers
0:22:30turning into interview Jeff tell me
0:22:32about it but it's your written i don't
0:22:34know we have like 30 books including
0:22:35revision something on that order of
0:22:37magnitude higher but what happens when
0:22:39you don't you know you get in advance
0:22:41what happens when you don't you and you
0:22:42don't have a hit when you're working
0:22:43with the conventional publisher how does
0:22:44that work out for you financially things
0:22:47just kind of fade and then I mean it's
0:22:51they don't come and get your money but
0:22:53they just don't ask you for more
0:22:55yeah they'll give you exactly well I can
0:22:57turn this back on you because I didn't
0:22:59go tonight after written books we we
0:23:01wrote a thousand-page book about adobe
0:23:03golive and wow yeah exactly like 9000
0:23:07Stephenson pro we didn't believe it at
0:23:09the time at three-thirty guns it will be
0:23:12all Stevens well it started as 800 pages
0:23:14so you know that was how much more
0:23:16manageable develop yeah exactly
0:23:20George RR Martin's game of colon
0:23:22is another we started with stephen king
0:23:24and ended up with george RR 1 and so the
0:23:29the the way publishing works is we
0:23:32received in advance and then when the
0:23:36book goes on on for sale
0:23:38the book has to earn back its advance
0:23:40before we see any royalties and
0:23:42fortunately if the book is not
0:23:44successful or moderately successful we
0:23:47you know don't have to give back any of
0:23:50the money or anything like that and so I
0:23:52mean at some point because goal i was a
0:23:55big deal for a very small amount of time
0:23:57after adobe purchased it and then
0:23:59dreamweaver just basically you know it's
0:24:02lunch and so we would get these monthly
0:24:05royalty statements and we were you know
0:24:08massively in the whole like we will
0:24:10never ever ever see any money from that
0:24:13and so there's the advantage thereof of
0:24:16having a a traditional book publisher
0:24:18that will take that risk and I mean I
0:24:22think ultimately they probably made a
0:24:24little bit of money because of the the
0:24:27markups and all of that but you have
0:24:28that that that mechanism in place where
0:24:31someone is going to say okay we're gonna
0:24:34put some money into this we're going to
0:24:35make this happen like it's going to be a
0:24:37thing and then we're going to put it out
0:24:38there and we have a Salesforce and we
0:24:40have like infrastructure to to make this
0:24:42happen and even if it's not a a wild
0:24:46success
0:24:47it's okay and and you know that look
0:24:50like the profits of this or or if you
0:24:51sort of you know mid-level sales things
0:24:54contribute to the bigger picture and
0:24:57that's not the case with it with indeed
0:24:59but this is what I this is what i think
0:25:02is interesting about the long tail had
0:25:03this conversation in fact with chris
0:25:05anderson when he was working on the book
0:25:06the longtail years ago because he was at
0:25:09work at amazon in 96-97 one of the great
0:25:13secrets of Amazon was that is special
0:25:15order fulfillment really well and nobody
0:25:17else that at the time even barnes and
0:25:18noble we could get any book within a few
0:25:20weeks and charged list price there is no
0:25:22markup at the time that was a secret
0:25:24because those you make the highest
0:25:25amount of money from because they're
0:25:27expensive books typically you don't
0:25:28discount them
0:25:29the thing about the long tail that's
0:25:31interesting Chris emphasizes a in a few
0:25:33places in his book is that the longtail
0:25:35benefits the publisher or the aggregator
0:25:38of the resale reseller amazon it is
0:25:40great for amazon they can sell one copy
0:25:42of a million books profitably the
0:25:44hundred thousand publishers that are
0:25:45selling 10 copies of books a half month
0:25:48through amazon they're not making very
0:25:49much money and the same thing goes for
0:25:51the publisher the publisher they can
0:25:53distribute their profits and losses
0:25:54across have some blockbusters and some
0:25:56not they want the big ones but i was
0:25:59thinking but they can still do okay even
0:26:01as long as an average and I was taken
0:26:02from the artist standpoint this new
0:26:04economy of things means that well this
0:26:06is why flipping around is like you have
0:26:07to sell 15,000 copies of the book to
0:26:10earn out and make probably a decent
0:26:11hourly wage from what you did write
0:26:13something in every twenty twelve to
0:26:14fifteen thousand copies from my but if
0:26:16you can control all the means of
0:26:17production if I go with Kickstarter I'm
0:26:19like I want really not going to kick
0:26:20start to write a book about Goliath via
0:26:21the classic program it's like an old
0:26:24video first you have to kick-start the
0:26:25time machine that's right it's at
0:26:27legends of Zelda go live edition but if
0:26:29i were to do that I don't have to sell
0:26:31twelve thousand copies I'm I've been
0:26:33talking to so many people to kick
0:26:35starters who their have the price point
0:26:37maybe the rewards in the $25 range they
0:26:39sell a thousand their 25 grand it's
0:26:41enough for them to do 2,000 if it's a
0:26:43product or a book or whatever and then
0:26:46they have that they've they may be Nate
0:26:47made no money doing air quotes audience
0:26:50i'm doing air quotes i just made no
0:26:51money off the project but they used to
0:26:53literally kick-started they've sold my
0:26:55friend matt bors editorial cartoonist he
0:26:57printed like 5000 copies of the book for
0:27:00fulfilling a thousand order Kickstarter
0:27:02every bookie cells at this point makes a
0:27:04hundred percent of the cost of that book
0:27:06he gets to retain because he paid all
0:27:08the costs of production
0:27:09yeah it's a big tits video we did that
0:27:11actually when we started doing ebooks at
0:27:13macworld was the same calculation which
0:27:15was to sell direct you don't go through
0:27:17a middleman your-your-your unity books
0:27:21they take now we sell through a
0:27:23middleman which sam is on your Apple but
0:27:25it's it's believed me far more efficient
0:27:28than going through a book publisher or
0:27:30magazine distributor and that that's the
0:27:33beauty of this is that you can sell you
0:27:35don't need to sell 15,000 you can sell
0:27:38ten thousand five thousand of whatever
0:27:40you're doing and it comes back to that
0:27:41which is where
0:27:42it's a its audience fragmentation
0:27:43everybody wants to have a best seller
0:27:45but if you were building something that
0:27:47is liked by a small group of people you
0:27:52can you can do that and it's not a
0:27:53failure which it in the past it would
0:27:55have been a failure and know those
0:27:57things wouldn't have existed but even
0:27:58beyond that I think that the motivations
0:28:00are fundamentally different there are
0:28:01different methods for getting the stuff
0:28:03out to people and the the indie
0:28:07producers that are now able to take
0:28:11advantage of these methods not only the
0:28:12big corporations and they can like you
0:28:14know IDG with macworld being able to get
0:28:16more efficient distribution but people
0:28:18who were doing stuff anyway for their
0:28:20own edification can now find audiences
0:28:22and make a profit yes and that's that I
0:28:25think is the fundamental change
0:28:26obviously business efficiencies are
0:28:28really important and where was it this
0:28:31is different
0:28:32yes although i would argue with with
0:28:34macros I mean there is a business
0:28:35efficiency premiere but in the end we
0:28:36wanted to have our content live beyond
0:28:39where was that as editors and so and we
0:28:41without really any business supervision
0:28:43just 19 happened if you're using a book
0:28:46so there's that was a little bit you
0:28:48take the Robertsons and have passion
0:28:49about exactly you would probably speed
0:28:51sitting in your lonely apartment writing
0:28:53articles about the mac if you couldn't
0:28:55distribute them you know how do you know
0:28:56about my lonely person and they believe
0:28:59in taking them to your neighbor's door
0:29:00it's only apartment while I and their
0:29:02jobs well as / picture yeah I'm
0:29:05extrapolating your life if you've never
0:29:06met
0:29:06yeah i thought so haha well played i
0:29:10know that was where you were it's a
0:29:11wonderful I life
0:29:12yeah no it's not it's a lonely apartment
0:29:14with a self-published thing he'd been
0:29:16able librarian no I think all the the
0:29:20business efficiencies that come for
0:29:21traditional channels are terrific but
0:29:24it's really the people who were
0:29:25printings eens and there that can now
0:29:29reach a much larger audience and can
0:29:32make a living it
0:29:34so one of the speakers at XOXO was Erica
0:29:37moen right yeah who described her talk
0:29:41who well she's an indie cartoonist
0:29:43really what kind of into cartoon figures
0:29:45your specialty she's got she discusses
0:29:48many topics in her career things will
0:29:51involves things that go inside of the
0:29:52thing
0:29:53yes that's right there based on that
0:29:54make people happy but she her point i
0:29:57think the overall point of her talking
0:29:59to there's an excellent episode of clans
0:30:00podcast the new disruptive read the on
0:30:04another podcast the but was what was
0:30:06really great about that that is that her
0:30:09message was she's now able to be a
0:30:11cartoonist for her living and she had
0:30:15never in her life believed that her
0:30:18thing that she loved the most in the
0:30:20world would be anything but something
0:30:22she had to do on the side because
0:30:23artists you can't make a living being an
0:30:26artist and the internet and web comics
0:30:28and building her audience and selling
0:30:30you know books and t-shirts and whatever
0:30:33else she now makes her living as an
0:30:36artist and that's so not only are people
0:30:38getting this art that would otherwise
0:30:39kind of maybe not be visible to them but
0:30:42she can she can do that for her life and
0:30:45that's amazing i want to bring up
0:30:46something that will sound like I'm
0:30:47totally off topic which is not the time
0:30:50you and all I read those new york times
0:30:52article about webcam girls and discuss
0:30:54what I'm talking about anything but it
0:30:56actually was interesting it was him this
0:30:57time no unit is exactly the same
0:30:59economics if you disregard what the
0:31:01woman's job these are women who build
0:31:04and ship out
0:31:05webcams that's probably worth that's
0:31:07right there electronic assembly woman
0:31:09people like to watch electronics being a
0:31:10sentence it'll be fun to watch women
0:31:13assemble electronics there's already
0:31:15unstable severe weather doesn't its
0:31:17rules be going to have very few managers
0:31:19yeah you do around the the next great
0:31:21industry rule 34 is you can see women
0:31:23doing anything you want the including
0:31:25assembly electronics whatsoever but the
0:31:27economics of are identical is that women
0:31:29who used to be in operations you know in
0:31:31its sexual rings and with pimps whatever
0:31:33they're now independent producers they
0:31:35control their environment they keep it
0:31:36much fair percentage as much as fifty to
0:31:38sixty percent of what they make their a
0:31:40safer place
0:31:41they're entrepreneurs they have to
0:31:43employ marketing and it's a direct
0:31:44connection and you're like I'm so i'm
0:31:46actually not being contentious about
0:31:47this site it was reading it going like
0:31:49this is just like this is an independent
0:31:51producer thing yeah and it is
0:31:52disintermediated you know people shows
0:31:55or ok to live pictures in the same way
0:31:57that that yeah so tired
0:32:01haha the disinformation people do that
0:32:04that's that that's the old story that
0:32:06but you know that pornography always
0:32:08finds new technology i mean not really
0:32:10really didn't have any partner it wasn't
0:32:13the first time no nerds nerds got there
0:32:15first and only later did pornography
0:32:17rush in but absolutely I it's going to
0:32:20be rushed it and what you get is you get
0:32:22a you get stuff whether it's whether
0:32:25it's webcam girls or its books or movies
0:32:27or TV shows or whatever you get or
0:32:29webcomics you're getting there was a
0:32:32build-up then suddenly haha so you're
0:32:36getting i'm just going to sit here but
0:32:38you're you're getting a greater
0:32:41diversity of stuff to i mean that's
0:32:43that's that's what it's gonna add to
0:32:45turn pivot this from being talking about
0:32:46the creator's talking about that
0:32:48consumed the consumers you you get stuff
0:32:51that would you know it's like wow
0:32:52imagine if he had written more books and
0:32:54it turns out he wanted to write more
0:32:55books but they never sold so you never
0:32:57saw them now you'd see that the artist
0:33:00as executive development is is
0:33:01discoverability how you find this among
0:33:03the vast see what's available is I have
0:33:07limited amount of time I person with a
0:33:09publisher was a really good filter right
0:33:11because it's somebody had already found
0:33:14and there are tools for finding out with
0:33:16my friends like and but it's I don't
0:33:19think that's a solved problem yet is how
0:33:22can you find new things
0:33:23the the most worthy new things how did
0:33:26they find audiences they have the tools
0:33:27available to them now but how do you
0:33:29break out how do you get past the noise
0:33:31and I don't think that's assault
0:33:33no word of mouth came up a lot of XOXO
0:33:35and and it struck me because I feel like
0:33:37with with with this podcast with other
0:33:40podcast that I like nobody's ever heard
0:33:42of any of them and I and I'm and it's
0:33:45strange paths like John siracusa worked
0:33:48with a guy whose brother did a podcast
0:33:51and that was the flophouse and junk
0:33:53siracusa told me
0:33:55yeah and I told people on this podcast
0:33:56and i love the flophouse and you know it
0:33:58gets around but it's not like there's
0:34:00you know marketing there are millions of
0:34:03people who would love the uncomfortable
0:34:05billions of people who have less income
0:34:07from just not that I States this is the
0:34:10problem is that we're in the Golan
0:34:11Golden Age of podcasting gentleman and I
0:34:13propose we take advantage of but no this
0:34:15isn't this is a new renaissance Harry
0:34:17this is the new renaissance and
0:34:19podcasting because for some reason we've
0:34:21seen many total explosion new podcast
0:34:24people brought passion back in there is
0:34:25a little more money in the system that
0:34:27helps people are chasing it thanks like
0:34:28this for thanks to our sponsors a panda
0:34:31but but i would say that like that
0:34:33hinders discoverability there used to be
0:34:36when i was at amazon 96 there were I
0:34:38want to say 25,000 new books published
0:34:40by major publishing houses like the top
0:34:42200 a year and they were like 250,000
0:34:45books published if you include all the
0:34:46self-publishing small house in ds1
0:34:49office whatever there are something like
0:34:50if you don't include me but now there's
0:34:52a million-plus books in the united
0:34:54states now published every year and that
0:34:57only counts the number of things that
0:34:58get ISBN and so forth includes ebooks
0:35:00are now half of that how do you find
0:35:02something when there's a million new
0:35:03passat read most of them haha he's
0:35:06forgotten
0:35:07yes was that no help there and then he
0:35:09forgets it so yeah we put on goodreads i
0:35:11mean i have to say that again if you can
0:35:13get in the water somewhere somewhere in
0:35:15the water supply then social media can
0:35:18help then think sites like goodreads or
0:35:20whatever problems you're trapped into
0:35:21the bubble of your friend but that's
0:35:23that's which turned my friends happen to
0:35:25be nerd i love that song trapped in the
0:35:27bubble of my friend of scientists way
0:35:29back to the origin you know how it is i
0:35:31find the kind of the little other things
0:35:33and and it's it's their it I feel it
0:35:36lost sometimes because there's so much
0:35:38out there that i know i'm missing and I
0:35:40i have you should use 12 OCT 10 0 as
0:35:44it's totally unlike most people of our
0:35:47ilk and I want to be able to be a
0:35:50completist but also sample widely and
0:35:53with the a limited amount of time that I
0:35:56have I don't know where to find things
0:35:57that would blow me away that aren't what
0:35:59I'm normally consumer and you can get
0:36:01some of that from word-of-mouth but you
0:36:03know you're missing the things that just
0:36:05didn't like I said we know about the
0:36:07flophouse if John siracusa hadn't worked
0:36:10with dan McCoy's brother
0:36:12I mean that's such a random connection
0:36:13right and and that goes for almost
0:36:16anything that we would discover it's
0:36:17like how do i hear about you named the
0:36:19favorite book favorite artists
0:36:21maybe through luck it got here but
0:36:22there's gotta be
0:36:23would think that this technology would
0:36:25enable us to do as a child and that
0:36:27every problem can be solved with
0:36:28technology i'm sure i'm including a
0:36:30personal and emotional problems
0:36:32yeah and you're going on a pit stops all
0:36:34some of that I like that I i want this
0:36:36social problem solved as well and my
0:36:38approach is technological but that's
0:36:40maybe not the right approach that's the
0:36:42hammer i have to hit this particular
0:36:43nail I just that I feel like the
0:36:46allowing people to create was no 8
0:36:50age-old you know they're painting on
0:36:51cave walls they have an impetus to
0:36:52create now extending my cave paintings
0:36:55there and and for a long time
0:36:57traditional media methods built up in
0:36:59order to distribute this stuff and they
0:37:01became ossified and inefficient and then
0:37:03new technology has come in and and her
0:37:06damaged a lot of that's traditional
0:37:07things while replacing it with new stuff
0:37:09that is more egalitarian more democratic
0:37:11more open to alternative voices you know
0:37:15the the gatekeepers argument well i
0:37:17think that you know but but what's the
0:37:19next step
0:37:20where do we go am I being impatient
0:37:21because we're still undergoing the
0:37:23previous revolution partly really i mean
0:37:25i think we'll what's nice is that is
0:37:27that like now there are also a lot of
0:37:30hammers but you can but one thing about
0:37:33the the only want to be hammered by
0:37:35somebody else and we're back to that
0:37:37again for huh i was thinking it is
0:37:41better but what's interesting about
0:37:45about it all was the indie stuff that is
0:37:49being talked about here is that you have
0:37:53a lot more I know
0:37:55audience participation that's not really
0:37:57the right term but but you have more
0:37:59like direct interaction more people
0:38:03yeah who like your thing who are willing
0:38:05to to to spread that message I mean like
0:38:08I i think with indie game one of the
0:38:11things that they talked about you people
0:38:12that are on getting all this i think um
0:38:15was it straight friends like like they
0:38:17would go and do screenings in different
0:38:19places but they would have volunteers
0:38:21who would like set them up there and
0:38:23like look like advanced people that
0:38:26because they love this thing right are
0:38:28willing to do work half of having that
0:38:30connection you you would go to the mat
0:38:32like I would read books favorite books
0:38:34as a kid and that the novelist was
0:38:36literally
0:38:37the name on the cover and I knew nothing
0:38:38more about them and that that doesn't
0:38:41happen today right i mean that and with
0:38:43made big artist it does but with the
0:38:44smartest you feel like you know them you
0:38:46you hear them on a podcast or you follow
0:38:48them on Twitter and you would go it's a
0:38:51funny thing about human societies in the
0:38:52way we're kind of Wired is you would go
0:38:54to the mat for some because they're not
0:38:55they're no longer this person who is a
0:38:57musician they're like I know that person
0:38:58you have back-channel to them you can
0:39:00subscribe to their twitter account you
0:39:01can read their blog suddenly there's a
0:39:02conversation going on even if it's not
0:39:05my strength I was the writer it's not
0:39:06sign out there I work and then there's
0:39:08much more intimate connection speed that
0:39:10is also i think there's the danger is if
0:39:12there is a jerk there's a problem but
0:39:13why does that happen to you Jason you
0:39:16whippersnapper
0:39:17what are you tired i'm not talking about
0:39:19anybody here know I'm talkin about 10
0:39:22more now other than that there's a
0:39:24result in sorry I didn't look for
0:39:26recommendations we talked about this
0:39:28before my friends that's like there's
0:39:29people who go for the so from the
0:39:31artist's perspective they now have
0:39:32possibly right there's people go to the
0:39:34mat for them they're people who have
0:39:36very little some audience people who
0:39:37read or bi or enjoy their stuff a much
0:39:40smaller audience and true fans but the
0:39:42true fans now have a way to spread the
0:39:44true religion in a way they didn't
0:39:46before right so i have people and it's
0:39:47actually exciting I people are out there
0:39:49saying like you should listen to the new
0:39:51disrupted by the way people how to do
0:39:52these references or or what i read the
0:39:54magazine or whatever i'm working on and
0:39:56it's exciting to Jeff cross those people
0:39:58read his book and you know you should
0:39:59get this book there's usually blog for
0:40:01the only way to spread that people have
0:40:03to find a blog news RSS whatever in the
0:40:05old days the old and it is well here we
0:40:09know and tell you already got 10 years
0:40:11ago but now I think that there's an
0:40:14acceleration is that you get the viral
0:40:16edge and so projects like indie game or
0:40:18things that are going to the glyph is
0:40:20the classic when the ipod or ipad iphone
0:40:23tripod-mounted is a these guys went from
0:40:26zero to you know hundred thousand
0:40:28dollars in 2010 i think it was for this
0:40:31plastic they were x XOXO last year too
0:40:34that's right and they and then they've
0:40:36done stuff ever since but the but they
0:40:39got there because a few people saw it
0:40:42was fascinating and pushed it out to
0:40:44some influencers you have the dairy
0:40:46fireballs that were
0:40:47and don't dig may come back yet and
0:40:49other sites and things that you go to
0:40:51where if it's mentioned i know somebody
0:40:53like twitter is fascinating where you
0:40:55could have something with five million
0:40:57followers will mention one kind of thing
0:40:59and nothing happens to be like really
0:41:00like LA and it's crickets anything
0:41:03that's another thing and 50,000 people
0:41:05pledge twenty dollars in five minutes
0:41:08yeah it's it seems to me that what we're
0:41:11saying here is that we've revolutionized
0:41:13the ability to distribute and create
0:41:15independently but it's all still really
0:41:18random when it comes to discovery and
0:41:21market is stolen and famous well I mean
0:41:23and that's why you get this tendency to
0:41:25have stuff by famous people stuff by
0:41:28existing artists things like that
0:41:29because they it's a perfect time for
0:41:32there's other ways because they're good
0:41:34they're good at I think that I think the
0:41:36ones that excel this the most are um you
0:41:39know like musical artists and and maybe
0:41:42some writers but I think about the
0:41:44musical artists that have a fan of a fan
0:41:46base that's too small that there they
0:41:48were big they had one hit ten years ago
0:41:50they had four hits 20 years ago or
0:41:52something like that and there you know
0:41:54they can go from effort to every city
0:41:56and and get a thousand people but that
0:41:58there as a you know it's too
0:42:01it's not hot enough they're not they're
0:42:03not a superstar and I think it used to
0:42:05be really hard for them and I think it's
0:42:08easier now I think that some of them
0:42:10saying playing 200 state fairs a year is
0:42:12not a great one looking well they're
0:42:14really retro and if you don't like i'm
0:42:16thinking more like musical artists that
0:42:17whenever they were never the rolling
0:42:19stones and and they were never journey
0:42:23right where they were huge and now
0:42:24they're very small and they replaced the
0:42:26lead singer and still bitter about that
0:42:27but uh sorry journey but that's a lot of
0:42:30podcasts variability we already did our
0:42:32podcast on journey we're going to st
0:42:33mary's pipettes that's just an example
0:42:35which is the other oceans is three
0:42:37sisters to perform years ago they were
0:42:39fairly popular folk song act and one of
0:42:41them is the mother of the rufus
0:42:44wainwright the 1300 former and so
0:42:47they're kind of this circle and one of
0:42:49them tried to raise money think was
0:42:50zeros try to raise money on IndieGoGo
0:42:53and did
0:42:53reach a goal for it because it was so
0:42:56different than anything you've ever done
0:42:57if she'd try to do another album of the
0:43:00kind of stuff people that like her
0:43:01producing for a 30-plus years I think
0:43:04she would have even easily succeeded
0:43:06this trouble for that kind of artist
0:43:07where they want to shift direction then
0:43:09these mechanisms don't necessarily work
0:43:10is kickstarter exbest as either i'm
0:43:13really famous and I want to do a thing
0:43:15that's different than a thing or you
0:43:17know me sort of and I want to do another
0:43:18thing that's so much like the things you
0:43:20like that you'll find this because you
0:43:21want another one of those things you
0:43:22like one of the things about XOXO and
0:43:25about the enthusiasm that we're talking
0:43:26about here for these new methods is that
0:43:28not many people are talking about the
0:43:30failures about the difficulties of his
0:43:31system that that this is a very survivor
0:43:36biased tape on the new strands is that
0:43:40we talked about the successes because
0:43:41they're the interesting things we talked
0:43:42about the people who haven't really
0:43:44working but there are also people that
0:43:47have put their passion into it put into
0:43:49the system and then it doesn't play
0:43:50I thought about doing a couple different
0:43:53to Kickstarter projects and I'm
0:43:54terrified to do it because i'm i'm
0:43:57almost certain that it will fail and it
0:43:59what about your marinated unquestioning
0:44:00fanbase minus minefield looking up on
0:44:03going out myself by myself live and
0:44:05reminded that i was going to do a quick
0:44:06kick start background actually I know
0:44:09anyone with two problems are several
0:44:11problems and I learned a lot from it i
0:44:12started the podcast and change my whole
0:44:14life but that this is over a year ago
0:44:16and one of them was I said the reward
0:44:17levels too high that's pretty clear
0:44:19there's issues there but the other one
0:44:21was people I've never written a book
0:44:24like this i don't have an audience yet
0:44:26the new structures help me build an
0:44:28audience that might be interested in
0:44:29buying a book of the kind of wrote third
0:44:31thing was people thought I was joking
0:44:33because people know I joke and Twitter
0:44:35and I'm like I'm i'm writing a
0:44:37crowdfunding a book about crowdfunding
0:44:38was very mad haha like no really so I
0:44:41think everybody's tender people what you
0:44:43always have a Kickstarter so you could
0:44:45produce a Kickstarter to do your book
0:44:47that's what I'm working on that but it's
0:44:49a variance that was the other hand
0:44:51conception or interpretation but but I
0:44:53didn't you know what the key is can you
0:44:55learn from your failures in that regard
0:44:57and I totally did and I've done a lot of
0:44:59things I feel very successful as an
0:45:01outcome
0:45:01and I'm the new disruptors podcast is my
0:45:04attempt to build an audience says Oh
0:45:06Glenn does this thing maybe a book
0:45:08version of or some other version of this
0:45:10thing that he's been doing for a year or
0:45:11two years would not be worth I don't
0:45:13need to put you on the spot why haven't
0:45:14you talked about that about the failure
0:45:16yeah I did actually SI but you just
0:45:18don't read everything i would not meet
0:45:20every time haha it's a full-time job and
0:45:24salary
0:45:25whens Kickstarter is going to be a book
0:45:26starts a hundred-thousand-dollar
0:45:28genomics it's a book series following
0:45:30our mechanical turk degree the Thousand
0:45:32Islands i wrote a post to the time and
0:45:34actually some forgot the site some site
0:45:36that is the thing which was like haha
0:45:38crowd funding grant money transfer book
0:45:40doesn't go and i taught that doesn't
0:45:41fire and I talked to the guy is like all
0:45:43this is actually you know I'm sorry
0:45:45nearly exactly funny it was like I
0:45:47understand what sounds funny and he went
0:45:48back and he broke something was actually
0:45:50fairly reasonable when i explained like
0:45:51here's the five or six things that are
0:45:53wrong and I didn't cost me that cost me
0:45:55time for us Jeff Rossen shoot the videos
0:45:58that cost him time to but what I didn't
0:46:00have any hard costs feeling into it and
0:46:03then I've developed a whole new career
0:46:04and I think that's awesome and I wish we
0:46:06had more stories like that the this
0:46:08there's hype around this man is just a
0:46:11probable light right but there's also an
0:46:13entire other side of it for things that
0:46:14don't work and how we fix that now
0:46:17before we go really quickly i wanted to
0:46:19because we're running out of time I
0:46:20wanted to go around the table and which
0:46:23is an actual table because we're sitting
0:46:24at a table and just really briefly if
0:46:26you've got some specific thing that you
0:46:28want to mention that you that you've
0:46:30enjoyed or supported that was a an indie
0:46:34project or something that is just out of
0:46:36the traditional means because I know
0:46:37that that's what we usually talk about
0:46:38on the podcast and I wanted to at least
0:46:41able for us to give some shouts out to
0:46:44two ND stuff that we liked Greg to you
0:46:47you haven't some things you want to
0:46:48promote one of the first web comics ever
0:46:50started reading and it was eons ago was
0:46:53lucky freelance and that's actually been
0:46:55going for 16 years now and he's been
0:46:56doing it as a full-time job for 12 I
0:46:58think wow and it is insane
0:47:01it is an epic epic story in comic strip
0:47:06form it's hilarious
0:47:07it's well-drawn you can see his art
0:47:09improving over the past 16 years along
0:47:11with his characterizations and the depth
0:47:13of his story he will
0:47:14reference things from a decade ago and
0:47:17if you happen to have that knowledge it
0:47:18makes the the interaction so let your
0:47:21deeper and so when I started reading it
0:47:22like 10 12 years ago I went back and it
0:47:26during a slow time at work and I read
0:47:28six years of archives and I've kept up
0:47:30with it ever since
0:47:31and that was my first real interaction
0:47:35with somebody who was doing something on
0:47:37the side that had a level of success and
0:47:39allowed him to go ahead and do it
0:47:41full-time
0:47:42alright cool Jeff what about you
0:47:44actually I don't have anything to
0:47:46recommend because i'm on that that that
0:47:48other side which is like like I'm the
0:47:51beneficiary of all of this like there's
0:47:53this great podcast called the
0:47:54incomparable that that that has 11 i was
0:47:57going to recommend that i'll go ahead
0:47:59it's led me to wonderful things yeah
0:48:01yes is the jibber on about yeah just one
0:48:03or two yeah that's got McNulty you can't
0:48:06shut up i'm touching likes but but you
0:48:10know like you for example Jason like I
0:48:13never done you just wanna do dis ruptor
0:48:16your new disruptive i feel like i'm
0:48:19reading comics now because of your
0:48:21recommendation and and and and more and
0:48:24then I think that that you know i would
0:48:28probably miss a lot of the indie stuff
0:48:30like I'm the target market out to say oh
0:48:33like here's something that's interesting
0:48:35and and usually it's because you know
0:48:37like Glenn has has contributed to a
0:48:40kickstarter and because i have had done
0:48:42stuff in the past i get a thing from
0:48:44them saying when freshman did this maybe
0:48:46you will be like right yeah that's
0:48:47totally what so you're the recipient of
0:48:49the word of mouth from these projects
0:48:51and end up supporting some of them are
0:48:53reading the comics or whatever yes
0:48:55you're listening to yeah exactly it and
0:48:57now I want to add one more thing what
0:48:59greg was seen that jack chang who who
0:49:03spoke he wrote a novel called these days
0:49:05one of the things that was great about
0:49:07his talk was that you know he talked
0:49:10about how great it is to to to crowdfund
0:49:13that his is novel which I thought was
0:49:15sort of weird at first like like it
0:49:17can you just write the novel and then go
0:49:20searching for it but you know like the
0:49:21different models but then he said he's
0:49:23like oh and you don't have to quit your
0:49:24day job like this italia sigh thing
0:49:27right and I'm
0:49:27my living doing something else which
0:49:29like sounded kind of refreshing here
0:49:31because it like most of things always
0:49:34get guess somebody somebody understand
0:49:36their jobs seriously considering
0:49:38starting a conference called don't quit
0:49:39your day job is about being an
0:49:41independent content creator he sort of
0:49:43fulfilling your dream while also meeting
0:49:45your family your family isn't yeah he
0:49:48said I expected value of the speakers
0:49:49will be middle-aged people with families
0:49:51gonna really gonna do it wasn't like it
0:49:54was great to be able to hear that 24 in
0:49:56the afternoon yeah go home to bed now it
0:49:58starts at seven at night and engines
0:50:00love you
0:50:01what about you oh well uh i was looking
0:50:03through i was looking through my
0:50:04Kickstarter back to things because i
0:50:06think i've put most of my effort into
0:50:08supporting stuff that's wound up on
0:50:10kickstarter and I flaming carrot comics
0:50:14they did this great Kickstarter where
0:50:15it's like I don't even know Bob burden
0:50:17the Creator is still alive he's kind of
0:50:18can't figure if he's actually crazy or
0:50:22he has an incredibly good active and
0:50:23sustaining for decades i think its a mix
0:50:25about but he put out a Kickstarter to
0:50:28finish some stuff put it about deluxe
0:50:30collection he threw in all kinds of
0:50:32weird stuff and it's a it's one of the
0:50:34most surreal comics i forgot i even
0:50:36known issues i have a pile of them from
0:50:37the early days and and it was great so I
0:50:40back that and I was delighted to see
0:50:42something that was truly in the end of
0:50:45indie spirit 30 20 30 years ago with
0:50:48they did everything on their own and
0:50:49they kind of went out of some of the
0:50:51comic book labels and come back and see
0:50:53some new material and collection the old
0:50:55stuff very cool and I'm i mentioned a
0:50:57bunch of stuff earlier you have these
0:50:59wool being a successful nanowrimo novel
0:51:02that turned into a successful self
0:51:04published novel that is now a successful
0:51:06actually professionally published novel
0:51:09and it's pretty good so check it out
0:51:12well this wraps up our time in the one
0:51:15in this little room i also want to give
0:51:17a thanks to luma labs for providing the
0:51:20space they are the makers of fine
0:51:22product called cinch cinch which if you
0:51:26are a photographer and you want to have
0:51:28your SLR not be annoying to you and
0:51:32readily available to take pictures the
0:51:34Cinch is here we were getting struct
0:51:36yeah that's sort of it kind of murder
0:51:38and go to luma dad has
0:51:39dot-com you put it around your they
0:51:41didn't even know we were going to
0:51:42mention the biggest space and we really
0:51:44appreciate a great conductor for letting
0:51:47us a barge into their space on sunday
0:51:49morning and record this so thanks to
0:51:51them and i would like to thank my guests
0:51:53for gathering around this table Glenn
0:51:54fleischmann thanks for being here
0:51:56I didn't mention Stephen Fry just want
0:51:57you to know you did actually using it
0:52:00nice try nice try Jeff girls and thanks
0:52:03for being back I can't wait till we do
0:52:04another life never liked that the only
0:52:06time I into your life you don't show up
0:52:08on on recording so we live and great NOS
0:52:10thank you again for showing up like I
0:52:12can't wait until we do another life but
0:52:13ya be on the podcast some other time
0:52:15yeah to do you have a family history and
0:52:19science really busy creating yes I know
0:52:21that's right independent content
0:52:22creation of code someone sound like
0:52:25earlier yeah I didn't tell you what I
0:52:28was created planned and then and for the
0:52:30comfortable i'm your host Jason don't
0:52:31thanks for listening and guys did you
0:52:33think anybody noticed that we were naked
0:52:34when we recorded this