The Incomparable

162: Disintermediated Peep Shows


00:00:00   the Anton comparable number 162 [TS]

00:00:07   october2013 welcome back to be [TS]

00:00:13   comfortable podcast I'm your host Jason [TS]

00:00:14   L and we are live in a room with people [TS]

00:00:18   in portland oregon where at the XOXO [TS]

00:00:21   festival which is a celebration of indy [TS]

00:00:24   content creators and i'm joined in this [TS]

00:00:27   room by three guess frequent visitor to [TS]

00:00:31   the podcast Glenn fleischmann has [TS]

00:00:33   returned hello Glenn hello I'm currently [TS]

00:00:35   very sleeves of tattoos I've been [TS]

00:00:37   important for three days they [TS]

00:00:38   spontaneously form on my arm it's like [TS]

00:00:41   magic [TS]

00:00:41   it's crazy that's what the air in [TS]

00:00:43   portland does greg NOS who only appears [TS]

00:00:46   on a comparable podcast that are [TS]

00:00:48   recorded live because he doesn't know [TS]

00:00:50   how to use a computer is here hi Greg hi [TS]

00:00:52   it's good to have you [TS]

00:00:54   thank you and special cast Jeff Carlson [TS]

00:00:57   joins us [TS]

00:00:58   is this your first time have you been on [TS]

00:00:59   i have been on been on your own without [TS]

00:01:02   me right you were on the air in the [TS]

00:01:04   aaron sorkin episode that's right yeah I [TS]

00:01:06   I took your place so i am also only [TS]

00:01:08   alive performed only one of the cards [TS]

00:01:10   right [TS]

00:01:11   not on the computer you're Amish [TS]

00:01:12   basically basically i can bring my own [TS]

00:01:15   equipment and I'm i don't understand [TS]

00:01:17   these things that are in front of me [TS]

00:01:18   that are stealing my voice yeah i know [TS]

00:01:21   they are sorry I've stolen parts of your [TS]

00:01:23   soul that's just how it is [TS]

00:01:24   there's nothing like so I thought we [TS]

00:01:26   would talk about it in the spirit of [TS]

00:01:30   XOXO I thought we would talk about indie [TS]

00:01:33   projects and and and culture and people [TS]

00:01:36   creating things outside the bounds of [TS]

00:01:38   sort of mainstream mainstream media [TS]

00:01:41   distribution and i'm not i'm not sure [TS]

00:01:45   what kind of stuff you guys are [TS]

00:01:46   consuming that goes outside outside [TS]

00:01:49   those bounds I've got a couple of [TS]

00:01:50   thoughts i'm wondering Glenn you do a [TS]

00:01:52   whole podcast about people who create [TS]

00:01:54   new things and different things the new [TS]

00:01:55   disruptors do you have some favorite [TS]

00:01:57   indie culture stuff that you consume [TS]

00:01:59   look up with like general and specific [TS]

00:02:02   the general thing is I keep finding [TS]

00:02:03   myself over time more and more [TS]

00:02:05   gravitating to things that are created [TS]

00:02:06   by a small number of people and it's [TS]

00:02:08   funny I think it goes back even to the [TS]

00:02:10   software [TS]

00:02:11   where I like a lot of the software that [TS]

00:02:13   I use on a regular basis is from small [TS]

00:02:15   companies there's a few things I used [TS]

00:02:16   for mass produce once but it's like that [TS]

00:02:18   there's actually connection and software [TS]

00:02:20   you can get things fixed and added you [TS]

00:02:21   can't do that in media but I find that [TS]

00:02:24   like there's a unless you George Lucas [TS]

00:02:26   that's right [TS]

00:02:27   please change that photoshop for me [TS]

00:02:28   thank you but the leader like a indie [TS]

00:02:31   game the movie is a great example of [TS]

00:02:33   that is to filmmakers and they appear to [TS]

00:02:36   last year's XOXO they're attending this [TS]

00:02:38   year's they just finished kind of [TS]

00:02:39   four-year odyssey of it and it's a great [TS]

00:02:42   moving film and it was really two people [TS]

00:02:45   work they brought in some people at the [TS]

00:02:46   very end for post-production they had a [TS]

00:02:49   composer to write the music for these [TS]

00:02:51   two peoples and Jamie spin you know [TS]

00:02:54   essentially spent four years of their [TS]

00:02:55   lives producing a film which the filming [TS]

00:02:57   was really done like three years ago [TS]

00:02:59   they produced one version they produce [TS]

00:03:01   the blocks tradition and you can feel [TS]

00:03:04   the hand of individual people on one [TS]

00:03:07   work that's created i was just a packs [TS]

00:03:09   in seattle pax prime the big gaming [TS]

00:03:11   event and I walked all over the place [TS]

00:03:13   i'm not a game run fairly casual guy and [TS]

00:03:16   i found that the big stuff was [TS]

00:03:17   interesting i'm curious what people are [TS]

00:03:18   playing from the big you know studios [TS]

00:03:20   and microsoft and nintendo and what have [TS]

00:03:23   you but there's an indian mini booth [TS]

00:03:24   where a bunch of developers get together [TS]

00:03:26   they buy space and they buy one big [TS]

00:03:28   space they show small business than one [TS]

00:03:30   of the booths is like this micro booth [TS]

00:03:32   in which tiny tiny developers are [TS]

00:03:34   crammed into this tiny times you can bet [TS]

00:03:36   can't walk through and it's um and all [TS]

00:03:38   that stuff was lovely like know two [TS]

00:03:40   things look the same as some of it was [TS]

00:03:42   artistic and like you know dramatic [TS]

00:03:45   painterly and some of it was out of [TS]

00:03:47   control so it was beautiful 3d but it [TS]

00:03:49   was all the most interesting stuff was [TS]

00:03:51   packed into this one boot space and the [TS]

00:03:53   rest of it was mainstream and just all [TS]

00:03:56   sort of looked a little bit of like to [TS]

00:03:57   me to stop their better is that I was [TS]

00:04:01   practicing Raptors just said i was [TS]

00:04:03   reading for like small people to come [TS]

00:04:05   out with tiny little new nano computers [TS]

00:04:07   great what about you do i do you only [TS]

00:04:09   watch only watch sitcoms on Monday [TS]

00:04:11   nights on CBS is that you heard what did [TS]

00:04:13   I that's why [TS]

00:04:14   demographic yes your announcement of [TS]

00:04:17   yours against um yeah i agree with Glenn [TS]

00:04:20   is that I'm what you get out of this [TS]

00:04:22   indie stuff is a singular vision people [TS]

00:04:24   who really care about these projects [TS]

00:04:26   they can make money from them and that's [TS]

00:04:28   one of the points of XOXO is not only [TS]

00:04:32   producing the stuff but using the [TS]

00:04:33   internet newer technologies to find an [TS]

00:04:35   audience and distribute it and that has [TS]

00:04:37   allowed me as a consumer of this stuff [TS]

00:04:40   to find it much easier in fact have too [TS]

00:04:42   much of it and so the but the stuff that [TS]

00:04:48   I do find its things that I that would [TS]

00:04:51   have been passed around on videotape [TS]

00:04:52   before they would have been produced [TS]

00:04:53   they may have been more difficult to [TS]

00:04:55   produce they may have taken much longer [TS]

00:04:56   because they didn't have the tools but [TS]

00:04:58   now you can stumble across professional [TS]

00:05:01   quality movies like indie game which is [TS]

00:05:04   terrific and because of the internet and [TS]

00:05:08   I realize that's not a great insight but [TS]

00:05:10   for me as a consumer I don't have to go [TS]

00:05:13   anywhere which is really really nice i [TS]

00:05:15   don't have to talk to people haha i [TS]

00:05:18   don't have to do that interact with [TS]

00:05:20   anybody to have this horrific stuff [TS]

00:05:21   finding its way to me and the fact that [TS]

00:05:25   it it is a passion project that is now [TS]

00:05:28   easier to produce easier to distribute [TS]

00:05:29   and easier to consume is there's so much [TS]

00:05:34   more of it because of that and that [TS]

00:05:36   makes it just the whole process becomes [TS]

00:05:38   simpler you can feel it when a project [TS]

00:05:40   is a passion project you can feel it [TS]

00:05:42   when people aren't doing it for the [TS]

00:05:44   money it's great when they make money [TS]

00:05:46   but that didn't begin the project and it [TS]

00:05:49   didn't sustain the project whose [TS]

00:05:50   obsession that got them started [TS]

00:05:52   sounds like a tagline movie was [TS]

00:05:54   obsession i got them started but it is [TS]

00:05:56   it's that thing that began with [TS]

00:05:57   obsession ended with customer service [TS]

00:05:59   back by midnight assembly brought that [TS]

00:06:02   one by one but it's true is that this is [TS]

00:06:04   goes back to like the blogging days [TS]

00:06:05   people would ask me how do i started [TS]

00:06:07   blogging I'm like is there something [TS]

00:06:08   you're interested in that you can't stop [TS]

00:06:10   talking about and did jeff carlson is [TS]

00:06:12   not again because everything understand [TS]

00:06:14   everything and I shared office space [TS]

00:06:15   with him so he knows what I mean let me [TS]

00:06:17   tell you about Wi-Fi that's not that's [TS]

00:06:19   not what student pride but it shows that [TS]

00:06:21   you have to have a session that drives [TS]

00:06:23   you and [TS]

00:06:23   it used to be you couldn't either turn [TS]

00:06:25   that into a career make money from it or [TS]

00:06:27   find an audience and now you can take [TS]

00:06:29   your obsession and you can find a way to [TS]

00:06:33   translate it into something that is not [TS]

00:06:34   a mass market but that can reach an [TS]

00:06:36   audience and then you're you know [TS]

00:06:39   something you're doing something that [TS]

00:06:40   feels productive because you're [TS]

00:06:41   interacting with the community that [TS]

00:06:42   appreciates what you're doing and I [TS]

00:06:44   think the modern version of indie stuff [TS]

00:06:47   started with software back in the [TS]

00:06:49   eighties you people with you know ziploc [TS]

00:06:52   bag a disc of the game they made and [TS]

00:06:54   advertised in the back of a magazine and [TS]

00:06:56   send it off to people in games got big [TS]

00:06:57   and that kind of died down for a little [TS]

00:06:59   while but with the introduction of [TS]

00:07:00   mobile devices in the app store and the [TS]

00:07:04   introduced the ability to for a single [TS]

00:07:07   developer to create a passion project [TS]

00:07:08   have it distributed worldwide to a [TS]

00:07:11   single source and then reap the benefits [TS]

00:07:13   and now the tools that allow that are [TS]

00:07:15   also coming to other media so that [TS]

00:07:18   somebody who is producing a movie like [TS]

00:07:22   last year at the indy game people that [TS]

00:07:24   XOXO talked about the ways they [TS]

00:07:25   distributed they're distributing through [TS]

00:07:26   steam which is of course a platform to [TS]

00:07:29   distributing video games they're [TS]

00:07:31   distributing through downloads directly [TS]

00:07:34   from their own site that distributing [TS]

00:07:35   through distributing through VFX and [TS]

00:07:37   like say if somebody had a small indie [TS]

00:07:41   magazine that could be distributed [TS]

00:07:42   electronically never heard of such a [TS]

00:07:44   thing how would that work exactly [TS]

00:07:47   first you have somebody who creates it's [TS]

00:07:49   jen is another guy comes along and buys [TS]

00:07:51   beer genius who puts hundreds of [TS]

00:07:53   thousands of dollars with his own time [TS]

00:07:55   before getting an app that is awesome [TS]

00:07:56   that's the solution brilliant i think [TS]

00:07:59   the fact that an ingrate just touched on [TS]

00:08:01   this but you know for a long time we've [TS]

00:08:03   heard about how like the tools will let [TS]

00:08:06   you make anything like you can you can [TS]

00:08:08   make something United movie in which i [TS]

00:08:10   wrote about four years you know like you [TS]

00:08:13   can build your own moving you can do all [TS]

00:08:15   this time you can create create create [TS]

00:08:17   but then there was always that hurdle up [TS]

00:08:19   okay now you've got it [TS]

00:08:21   what do you do with it and so it's nice [TS]

00:08:24   that there's so much focus on how to get [TS]

00:08:26   it out there [TS]

00:08:27   how to you know like what happens when [TS]

00:08:30   you're halfway through the project and [TS]

00:08:32   you know what needs to be done and you [TS]

00:08:33   absolutely do not have the resources to [TS]

00:08:35   finish it that the two guys that were [TS]

00:08:38   talking last night at a little film [TS]

00:08:43   festival part that film festival product [TS]

00:08:45   XOXO they have a movie called strip that [TS]

00:08:48   they're in the middle of working on and [TS]

00:08:49   they have 300 hours of interviews with [TS]

00:08:52   comic book creators and comic comic [TS]

00:08:55   strip artists basically comes to [TS]

00:08:56   acquiring yeah and so they are you know [TS]

00:08:59   like they need to do something with all [TS]

00:09:01   of that and by having a kickstarter and [TS]

00:09:05   you know different resources they can [TS]

00:09:08   actually finish it rather than have it [TS]

00:09:09   just be the passion project that they've [TS]

00:09:12   been working on in little bits here and [TS]

00:09:13   there that you know just might fade out [TS]

00:09:16   this used to be the software thing we're [TS]

00:09:18   talking about is that is that software [TS]

00:09:19   was the leading edge because the thing [TS]

00:09:21   you have to distribute was bits and you [TS]

00:09:22   can put on a floppy disk and then a CD [TS]

00:09:24   and you can email it then you could be [TS]

00:09:26   no torrent like there's a lot of ways to [TS]

00:09:28   show you software and it was you know [TS]

00:09:30   you could take credit cards and software [TS]

00:09:31   costs enough that you could get into the [TS]

00:09:33   credit card system there's paypal and [TS]

00:09:35   whatever but physical goods or things [TS]

00:09:37   that were media like funding a movie it [TS]

00:09:40   was movie was too big to download a [TS]

00:09:41   while ago and it was impossible to [TS]

00:09:43   collect lots of money so it's like this [TS]

00:09:46   felt like you could make the movie the [TS]

00:09:48   tools were good enough on a computer and [TS]

00:09:49   you can get decent of cameras cheap [TS]

00:09:51   enough you could make something looked [TS]

00:09:52   really good a few years ago [TS]

00:09:54   there's no way you could fund it and [TS]

00:09:55   there was no way you could distribute [TS]

00:09:56   unless you got into like video stores [TS]

00:09:59   maybe itunes not only pre-funding but [TS]

00:10:01   then the post profit afterwards the [TS]

00:10:04   district with distributing times profit [TS]

00:10:05   that's right because remember indie game [TS]

00:10:07   actually this is why don't we will talk [TS]

00:10:09   about the whole time but like that was [TS]

00:10:10   their thing too is they went to Sundance [TS]

00:10:12   with the movie almost two years ago they [TS]

00:10:14   gotta editing award and they got [TS]

00:10:17   approached by distributors and they talk [TS]

00:10:19   to them all they looked at the deal they [TS]

00:10:20   said you know we will lose all control [TS]

00:10:23   we can't send a movie out to the backers [TS]

00:10:25   outside the United States for like a [TS]

00:10:26   year and a half there like all these [TS]

00:10:28   restrictions to maybe do it ourselves [TS]

00:10:29   they called movie theaters the book [TS]

00:10:31   stuff they got us corporate sponsor [TS]

00:10:33   adobe love them because they were using [TS]

00:10:35   final cut pro and so [TS]

00:10:37   pro bono vacated the my godmother using [TS]

00:10:39   a premier Premier front of the other [TS]

00:10:41   using Adobe products that they were so [TS]

00:10:42   indie game the sorry I didn't pan out [TS]

00:10:45   that's what I can explore other people [TS]

00:10:48   guys aren't getting paid by Adobe Oh [TS]

00:10:50   said too much and put them and maybe the [TS]

00:10:53   butt so they they want their own [TS]

00:10:55   independent even with distribution of it [TS]

00:10:58   I'm not just like downloads and discs [TS]

00:10:59   but even like to the movie theaters [TS]

00:11:01   because you can you don't need to make [TS]

00:11:03   400 reels of film now you can take a [TS]

00:11:06   digital disc and that's even fighting to [TS]

00:11:07   the last year even further [TS]

00:11:09   yeah I was um it's fascinating to see [TS]

00:11:12   all the it's not just Kickstarter now [TS]

00:11:14   there's IndieGoGo and there are other [TS]

00:11:15   other sites that are doing different [TS]

00:11:17   models for this and and and you see you [TS]

00:11:19   do see two different models here you see [TS]

00:11:20   people who are known who are able to cut [TS]

00:11:25   out the middleman in some cases or [TS]

00:11:26   change how they do their business and [TS]

00:11:29   then you see complete unknowns like [TS]

00:11:32   these filmmakers who have a subject that [TS]

00:11:35   people like and want to see and are able [TS]

00:11:37   to fund it and essentially they are [TS]

00:11:39   pre-ordering but they're proving that [TS]

00:11:40   there's an audience and these people [TS]

00:11:43   can't afford to put their own money in [TS]

00:11:45   upfront but they know that there's an [TS]

00:11:48   audience and the audience helps make it [TS]

00:11:49   which in some ways I mean that's how I [TS]

00:11:51   always thought Kickstarter was at its [TS]

00:11:53   core the most important way to do it was [TS]

00:11:55   there's an audience for this thing but [TS]

00:11:57   you can't you know make it for them [TS]

00:12:00   without the kickstart so I most of my [TS]

00:12:04   experience I got to be honest most of my [TS]

00:12:05   experience with indie stuff is artists [TS]

00:12:08   that I was aware of already but [TS]

00:12:10   especially in the music industry where [TS]

00:12:12   traditionally musicians the economics [TS]

00:12:15   have been so terrible that a lot of [TS]

00:12:17   musicians are now going direct to their [TS]

00:12:19   audiences and bypassing the the studios [TS]

00:12:22   and doing projects on their own [TS]

00:12:25   I there's a couple music artist Mike [TS]

00:12:29   Cody who we used to be in the band soul [TS]

00:12:30   coughing released a an album of his old [TS]

00:12:34   band songs that he recorded and he had a [TS]

00:12:37   bunch of bonus things as you do i think [TS]

00:12:39   it was an IndieGoGo project but you know [TS]

00:12:41   you could get an acoustic album and [TS]

00:12:43   there's a lot of back-and-forth about [TS]

00:12:44   what he was going to do there but it was [TS]

00:12:46   something that was kinda outside the [TS]

00:12:48   realm of the usual i'm going to put out [TS]

00:12:49   a release and then [TS]

00:12:50   artist really like imogen heap decided [TS]

00:12:53   to release her tracks for her next album [TS]

00:12:56   as she was recording them instead of [TS]

00:12:58   waiting for years and then releasing the [TS]

00:13:00   album and so her album is gonna come out [TS]

00:13:02   early next year and I've already heard [TS]

00:13:03   half the tracks already bought half the [TS]

00:13:05   tracks its kind of brilliant from a [TS]

00:13:06   business standpoint but also i was happy [TS]

00:13:08   to subscribe to you know attract every [TS]

00:13:11   two to three months instead of waiting [TS]

00:13:14   for the old model [TS]

00:13:15   well this is what's happening to is I [TS]

00:13:16   think you're getting the Baroque effect [TS]

00:13:18   of having so much money pouring into the [TS]

00:13:19   system when you find that people [TS]

00:13:20   actually want to support the artist [TS]

00:13:22   directly especially in the music [TS]

00:13:23   business but was in film book cartooning [TS]

00:13:27   cartoonist the musicians have made a [TS]

00:13:29   terrible living is like cartoons or even [TS]

00:13:31   lower down the heat in there at one of [TS]

00:13:33   cartoonist I know now it's not like the [TS]

00:13:34   rolling in money but it's like someone [TS]

00:13:36   have the day job and this is now let's [TS]

00:13:38   make a full living and they don't have [TS]

00:13:40   to worry about the day job somewhere [TS]

00:13:41   able to quit the day job because it's [TS]

00:13:43   enough money that they can then move [TS]

00:13:45   into the new project so they're [TS]

00:13:47   superstars in every field but the thing [TS]

00:13:49   I was thinking about is that the the [TS]

00:13:50   broke part is that i'm Kickstarter's [TS]

00:13:52   probably on track to bring it on a [TS]

00:13:54   foreigner finder million dollars this [TS]

00:13:56   year I think something like that really [TS]

00:13:57   supported billion dollars and completed [TS]

00:13:59   pledges IndieGoGo is smaller but it [TS]

00:14:02   might be I think I'm sure like twenty [TS]

00:14:03   twenty-five percent of that they've got [TS]

00:14:05   that different model like Kickstarter [TS]

00:14:06   you have to raise all the money you sent [TS]

00:14:08   out to raise you don't get any of it you [TS]

00:14:10   can go over IndieGoGo you can say I only [TS]

00:14:12   want to raise whatever I raised [TS]

00:14:14   there's now a bunch of product sites [TS]

00:14:16   where there's a it's a different compact [TS]

00:14:18   with the buyer so it's we release money [TS]

00:14:20   to the product designer only as they [TS]

00:14:23   complete benchmarks or we're going to [TS]

00:14:26   fully vet there's one site that's we're [TS]

00:14:28   going to fully vet the product rating [TS]

00:14:29   with engineering firms we're gonna have [TS]

00:14:31   the ledge see if this is feasible before [TS]

00:14:33   we even let someone listen it's not [TS]

00:14:34   we're gonna have to go back and iterate [TS]

00:14:36   so the only stuff we list we feel will [TS]

00:14:38   be a little further along and more [TS]

00:14:39   likely produced and so they're so it's [TS]

00:14:42   not just this monolithic like you go to [TS]

00:14:44   Kickstarter's one approach there's [TS]

00:14:46   enough money that you're seeing like you [TS]

00:14:47   know these sites could be doing 20 [TS]

00:14:48   million dollars 50 million dollars [TS]

00:14:50   there's a lot of nature like I mean [TS]

00:14:51   there's a porn version Kickstarter hmm [TS]

00:14:53   you can go out and get you know fund [TS]

00:14:56   your fetish film what's called and asked [TS]

00:14:58   us for some specific examples of indie [TS]

00:14:59   art that i consider want to talk about [TS]

00:15:01   haha be born there [TS]

00:15:03   predictive is a call plz kick-started it [TS]

00:15:05   just kick something like that yes well [TS]

00:15:10   I've wanted to mix stopper right [TS]

00:15:13   alternators when I was gonna I was gonna [TS]

00:15:14   ask you that you talk about the the [TS]

00:15:17   indie artists that you pursued that [TS]

00:15:19   you've pursued have been label artists [TS]

00:15:21   that have gone independent right right [TS]

00:15:23   because the economics are problematic [TS]

00:15:25   right and that or maybe artists that are [TS]

00:15:27   on a label but want to do a different [TS]

00:15:30   method of of releasing to the fans [TS]

00:15:32   because they know that eventually [TS]

00:15:33   they'll be a studio album that's in the [TS]

00:15:36   old channel but could I do something in [TS]

00:15:38   the intervening three years while making [TS]

00:15:40   this album so there's a couple different [TS]

00:15:41   right and then those are people that [TS]

00:15:42   have built audiences already yeah it's [TS]

00:15:44   not just one of the reasons that it's [TS]

00:15:45   easy for them to do this [TS]

00:15:47   yes just like just like zach braff or or [TS]

00:15:49   you know Veronica Mars and there's a [TS]

00:15:51   whole debate about whether they deserve [TS]

00:15:52   to be on Kickstarter because they have [TS]

00:15:54   access to your money and I think that [TS]

00:15:56   deserve is not a question of it there's [TS]

00:15:58   proof that people who come into the [TS]

00:16:00   system the the crowdfunding system [TS]

00:16:03   because of these larger projects then [TS]

00:16:04   contribute to other stuff i was going to [TS]

00:16:06   ask you have you sought out other [TS]

00:16:08   artists through Kickstarter or through [TS]

00:16:10   other crowdfunding means well I [TS]

00:16:12   certainly don't use Kickstarter as a as [TS]

00:16:14   a way to discuss we recommend it's not a [TS]

00:16:17   discovery medium right so so I I'm you [TS]

00:16:20   know you will find project music hard [TS]

00:16:22   too because you really do want to listen [TS]

00:16:23   to it and and and whether you find it [TS]

00:16:25   through alternative means or mainstream [TS]

00:16:28   means you know you want to make that [TS]

00:16:30   connection to like this stuff and then [TS]

00:16:31   you follow you follow that it they're [TS]

00:16:33   different models i was going to mention [TS]

00:16:34   in books that you know self-publishing [TS]

00:16:37   we've been talking about Kickstarter [TS]

00:16:38   crown fighting but self-publishing there [TS]

00:16:40   have been several successes and and [TS]

00:16:42   again I'll leave [TS]

00:16:43   50 shades of grey Greg to talk about [TS]

00:16:45   mice expertise as well have a whole [TS]

00:16:49   other world of toilet fanfic what's up [TS]

00:16:51   big so I was going to mention wool by [TS]

00:16:53   Hugh Howey which is a best-selling novel [TS]

00:16:55   that's now been released by a [TS]

00:16:56   traditional publisher but it started as [TS]

00:16:57   a series of novel let's basically [TS]

00:16:59   released by toilet and how it's not [TS]

00:17:01   twilight fan effect on although you can [TS]

00:17:04   do that on amazon now it was it was [TS]

00:17:07   released by him directly self-published [TS]

00:17:09   amazon and it became wildly successful [TS]

00:17:11   and is essentially a best-seller now and [TS]

00:17:14   I think it was a nanowrimo in fact so [TS]

00:17:16   now [TS]

00:17:17   travel writing month disclosure i'm on [TS]

00:17:19   the board everybody should write a novel [TS]

00:17:21   in November Greg's gonna kill himself [TS]

00:17:24   I'll write a story about Greg but i'm [TS]

00:17:26   launching a kickstarter for someone to [TS]

00:17:27   write a novel for the excellent i can't [TS]

00:17:29   wait to read that the Kickstarter not [TS]

00:17:32   the novel idea huh [TS]

00:17:34   you have somebody write a novel then you [TS]

00:17:35   buy it from them let's get this is money [TS]

00:17:37   yes but she wouldn't we you know that [TS]

00:17:39   it's a it's a pretty good book actually [TS]

00:17:41   and it's what's funny about it is that I [TS]

00:17:44   they bundle it up into an omnibus [TS]

00:17:46   edition and that's the one that was [TS]

00:17:48   published in a more traditional means [TS]

00:17:51   and that that happens to a lot of this [TS]

00:17:53   stuff to is once it gets discovered [TS]

00:17:55   sometimes it just like webcomics that [TS]

00:17:57   turn into printed books it's sort of [TS]

00:17:58   like after the fact once you it's almost [TS]

00:18:01   like the crowdfunding or internet [TS]

00:18:03   popularity becomes a filter that it's so [TS]

00:18:05   hard it's not that there is some good [TS]

00:18:07   stuff out there it's it's hard to find [TS]

00:18:08   it in if you're a publisher if your [TS]

00:18:09   mainstream up with the money it's like [TS]

00:18:12   where do you put in money it's like oh [TS]

00:18:13   that's the the problem of editors and [TS]

00:18:16   gatekeepers has now been transferred to [TS]

00:18:18   the audience yeah is why the reason I [TS]

00:18:20   asked you about whether you found [TS]

00:18:21   anybody knew through Kickstarter [TS]

00:18:22   crowdfunding is because you can go out [TS]

00:18:25   there and swing a cat and hit 50 new [TS]

00:18:27   things that you might be interested in [TS]

00:18:29   and it's it's the mainstream media as [TS]

00:18:32   well as producing an enormous amount of [TS]

00:18:33   amazing stuff right and so now you have [TS]

00:18:36   these sluice gates opened a terrific [TS]

00:18:39   mainstream media available terrific [TS]

00:18:41   indymedia and how do you filter that [TS]

00:18:43   what this also that's the it's the the [TS]

00:18:47   niche thing know the nice thing which [TS]

00:18:50   word is that was quite a small space [TS]

00:18:52   that happy the nice media we're in [TS]

00:18:55   northridge el museo need the nice thing [TS]

00:18:57   is that you have um there's small [TS]

00:18:59   audience as you gaze into the [TS]

00:19:00   Kickstarter the Kickstarter also cases [TS]

00:19:02   it to you [TS]

00:19:03   wow it doesn't bring me down I hope fun [TS]

00:19:08   the it's that every small audience is [TS]

00:19:11   whether the gatekeeper thing that the [TS]

00:19:12   audience is not the gatekeeper as a [TS]

00:19:14   certain level like you can have a [TS]

00:19:15   fundamental there's the issue that the [TS]

00:19:17   audience is fine what they like to write [TS]

00:19:19   so Amanda Hocking is the big example [TS]

00:19:20   where she was telling all these millions [TS]

00:19:22   of vampire novels and and so forth and [TS]

00:19:24   made a fortune selling a very [TS]

00:19:25   specifically was Taylor but you also [TS]

00:19:27   have we talked [TS]

00:19:28   over and over again about the thousand [TS]

00:19:30   true fan SI that kevin kelly roads it's [TS]

00:19:32   seminal because it took a concept sort [TS]

00:19:36   of codified it under one term that the [TS]

00:19:37   idea that you know he was saying p1000 [TS]

00:19:40   true fans I think it was a musician you [TS]

00:19:42   can probably make a living or [TS]

00:19:43   programming from it but what turns out i [TS]

00:19:45   think that be true is it scalable so you [TS]

00:19:46   can have a hundred true fans and produce [TS]

00:19:49   certain kinds of things you know your [TS]

00:19:50   ballet troupe in a small town or your [TS]

00:19:52   gear it's every one side project but you [TS]

00:19:54   have a hundred people who come to every [TS]

00:19:56   performance and that's that I you look [TS]

00:19:59   familiar to me [TS]

00:20:01   I tried to do the two tests are you can [TS]

00:20:02   end but you can have the bat-rope you [TS]

00:20:04   can happen to have a thousand people you [TS]

00:20:06   have 10,000 hundred thousand so the ship [TS]

00:20:09   famous people use Kickstarter issues [TS]

00:20:11   well you know everybody's a little bit [TS]

00:20:14   payments or could but it's like they can [TS]

00:20:16   raise five million dollars for Veronica [TS]

00:20:17   Mars movie but somebody else might raise [TS]

00:20:19   five thousand dollars that is equally as [TS]

00:20:21   significant for them right [TS]

00:20:22   the scale at which they're working for a [TS]

00:20:24   fanfic veronica mars movie exactly right [TS]

00:20:26   handheld cameras running for and [TS]

00:20:28   actually getting something that just [TS]

00:20:31   just call it better do I sign up online [TS]

00:20:33   not know this [TS]

00:20:34   I mean this is one of the that this [TS]

00:20:35   discussion has gone interesting [TS]

00:20:37   direction which is and I could expect [TS]

00:20:39   nothing less from you gentlemen have you [TS]

00:20:41   have you not listened to the podcast [TS]

00:20:42   yeah my podcast heart's beating really [TS]

00:20:45   know the UH the idea that you don't you [TS]

00:20:50   know a publisher is seeking a hit [TS]

00:20:52   they're seeking a hit a very very [TS]

00:20:55   because they know that a lot of the [TS]

00:20:57   things aren't going to make it and some [TS]

00:20:58   are going to break even and they want [TS]

00:21:00   hits and when you're in this with it [TS]

00:21:03   with distribution mechanisms we have met [TS]

00:21:05   with ebooks and print on demand and a [TS]

00:21:08   small run press and web comics and [TS]

00:21:10   podcasts many podcasts are not every [TS]

00:21:14   podcast is from a corporate behemoths [TS]

00:21:16   like the uncomfortable [TS]

00:21:18   oh you know the it's you don't need to [TS]

00:21:23   have a hit that reaches a million people [TS]

00:21:25   i mean like on TV a TV show that reaches [TS]

00:21:29   a million people in unless that you know [TS]

00:21:31   depending on the channel and the [TS]

00:21:32   demographics it's kind of a failure [TS]

00:21:33   happens [TS]

00:21:34   travelocity well it depends now actually [TS]

00:21:37   these days some shows on cable if you [TS]

00:21:38   get a million you're doing ok well on [TS]

00:21:40   CBS but a podcast that reaches 15 or 20 [TS]

00:21:44   thousand people you know that that's a [TS]

00:21:46   wild success in and and it doesn't have [TS]

00:21:49   to reach a million you can be you know [TS]

00:21:52   you can be uncomfortable and reach [TS]

00:21:54   15,000 people and be okay because we let [TS]

00:21:56   those are the because the comfortable [TS]

00:21:58   listenership those are the best 15,000 [TS]

00:22:00   people on the face of the earth [TS]

00:22:02   let me flip it around to there's another [TS]

00:22:04   part which is as a creator as an artist [TS]

00:22:06   and Jeff Cross has written and enormous [TS]

00:22:08   number of computer of technical books or [TS]

00:22:10   technology books that brings us to our [TS]

00:22:12   sponsor he works of Jeff Carl's going to [TS]

00:22:14   the circumstances and all his books are [TS]

00:22:17   fully edible the ok but I'm good [TS]

00:22:22   so just written Jeff catoctin this [TS]

00:22:23   experience being a ton of books when you [TS]

00:22:25   want to talk about the hit concepts and [TS]

00:22:28   terms any steps so you work for [TS]

00:22:29   conventional computer but publishers [TS]

00:22:30   turning into interview Jeff tell me [TS]

00:22:32   about it but it's your written i don't [TS]

00:22:34   know we have like 30 books including [TS]

00:22:35   revision something on that order of [TS]

00:22:37   magnitude higher but what happens when [TS]

00:22:39   you don't you know you get in advance [TS]

00:22:41   what happens when you don't you and you [TS]

00:22:42   don't have a hit when you're working [TS]

00:22:43   with the conventional publisher how does [TS]

00:22:44   that work out for you financially things [TS]

00:22:47   just kind of fade and then I mean it's [TS]

00:22:51   they don't come and get your money but [TS]

00:22:53   they just don't ask you for more [TS]

00:22:55   yeah they'll give you exactly well I can [TS]

00:22:57   turn this back on you because I didn't [TS]

00:22:59   go tonight after written books we we [TS]

00:23:01   wrote a thousand-page book about adobe [TS]

00:23:03   golive and wow yeah exactly like 9000 [TS]

00:23:07   Stephenson pro we didn't believe it at [TS]

00:23:09   the time at three-thirty guns it will be [TS]

00:23:12   all Stevens well it started as 800 pages [TS]

00:23:14   so you know that was how much more [TS]

00:23:16   manageable develop yeah exactly [TS]

00:23:20   George RR Martin's game of colon [TS]

00:23:22   is another we started with stephen king [TS]

00:23:24   and ended up with george RR 1 and so the [TS]

00:23:29   the the way publishing works is we [TS]

00:23:32   received in advance and then when the [TS]

00:23:36   book goes on on for sale [TS]

00:23:38   the book has to earn back its advance [TS]

00:23:40   before we see any royalties and [TS]

00:23:42   fortunately if the book is not [TS]

00:23:44   successful or moderately successful we [TS]

00:23:47   you know don't have to give back any of [TS]

00:23:50   the money or anything like that and so I [TS]

00:23:52   mean at some point because goal i was a [TS]

00:23:55   big deal for a very small amount of time [TS]

00:23:57   after adobe purchased it and then [TS]

00:23:59   dreamweaver just basically you know it's [TS]

00:24:02   lunch and so we would get these monthly [TS]

00:24:05   royalty statements and we were you know [TS]

00:24:08   massively in the whole like we will [TS]

00:24:10   never ever ever see any money from that [TS]

00:24:13   and so there's the advantage thereof of [TS]

00:24:16   having a a traditional book publisher [TS]

00:24:18   that will take that risk and I mean I [TS]

00:24:22   think ultimately they probably made a [TS]

00:24:24   little bit of money because of the the [TS]

00:24:27   markups and all of that but you have [TS]

00:24:28   that that that mechanism in place where [TS]

00:24:31   someone is going to say okay we're gonna [TS]

00:24:34   put some money into this we're going to [TS]

00:24:35   make this happen like it's going to be a [TS]

00:24:37   thing and then we're going to put it out [TS]

00:24:38   there and we have a Salesforce and we [TS]

00:24:40   have like infrastructure to to make this [TS]

00:24:42   happen and even if it's not a a wild [TS]

00:24:46   success [TS]

00:24:47   it's okay and and you know that look [TS]

00:24:50   like the profits of this or or if you [TS]

00:24:51   sort of you know mid-level sales things [TS]

00:24:54   contribute to the bigger picture and [TS]

00:24:57   that's not the case with it with indeed [TS]

00:24:59   but this is what I this is what i think [TS]

00:25:02   is interesting about the long tail had [TS]

00:25:03   this conversation in fact with chris [TS]

00:25:05   anderson when he was working on the book [TS]

00:25:06   the longtail years ago because he was at [TS]

00:25:09   work at amazon in 96-97 one of the great [TS]

00:25:13   secrets of Amazon was that is special [TS]

00:25:15   order fulfillment really well and nobody [TS]

00:25:17   else that at the time even barnes and [TS]

00:25:18   noble we could get any book within a few [TS]

00:25:20   weeks and charged list price there is no [TS]

00:25:22   markup at the time that was a secret [TS]

00:25:24   because those you make the highest [TS]

00:25:25   amount of money from because they're [TS]

00:25:27   expensive books typically you don't [TS]

00:25:28   discount them [TS]

00:25:29   the thing about the long tail that's [TS]

00:25:31   interesting Chris emphasizes a in a few [TS]

00:25:33   places in his book is that the longtail [TS]

00:25:35   benefits the publisher or the aggregator [TS]

00:25:38   of the resale reseller amazon it is [TS]

00:25:40   great for amazon they can sell one copy [TS]

00:25:42   of a million books profitably the [TS]

00:25:44   hundred thousand publishers that are [TS]

00:25:45   selling 10 copies of books a half month [TS]

00:25:48   through amazon they're not making very [TS]

00:25:49   much money and the same thing goes for [TS]

00:25:51   the publisher the publisher they can [TS]

00:25:53   distribute their profits and losses [TS]

00:25:54   across have some blockbusters and some [TS]

00:25:56   not they want the big ones but i was [TS]

00:25:59   thinking but they can still do okay even [TS]

00:26:01   as long as an average and I was taken [TS]

00:26:02   from the artist standpoint this new [TS]

00:26:04   economy of things means that well this [TS]

00:26:06   is why flipping around is like you have [TS]

00:26:07   to sell 15,000 copies of the book to [TS]

00:26:10   earn out and make probably a decent [TS]

00:26:11   hourly wage from what you did write [TS]

00:26:13   something in every twenty twelve to [TS]

00:26:14   fifteen thousand copies from my but if [TS]

00:26:16   you can control all the means of [TS]

00:26:17   production if I go with Kickstarter I'm [TS]

00:26:19   like I want really not going to kick [TS]

00:26:20   start to write a book about Goliath via [TS]

00:26:21   the classic program it's like an old [TS]

00:26:24   video first you have to kick-start the [TS]

00:26:25   time machine that's right it's at [TS]

00:26:27   legends of Zelda go live edition but if [TS]

00:26:29   i were to do that I don't have to sell [TS]

00:26:31   twelve thousand copies I'm I've been [TS]

00:26:33   talking to so many people to kick [TS]

00:26:35   starters who their have the price point [TS]

00:26:37   maybe the rewards in the $25 range they [TS]

00:26:39   sell a thousand their 25 grand it's [TS]

00:26:41   enough for them to do 2,000 if it's a [TS]

00:26:43   product or a book or whatever and then [TS]

00:26:46   they have that they've they may be Nate [TS]

00:26:47   made no money doing air quotes audience [TS]

00:26:50   i'm doing air quotes i just made no [TS]

00:26:51   money off the project but they used to [TS]

00:26:53   literally kick-started they've sold my [TS]

00:26:55   friend matt bors editorial cartoonist he [TS]

00:26:57   printed like 5000 copies of the book for [TS]

00:27:00   fulfilling a thousand order Kickstarter [TS]

00:27:02   every bookie cells at this point makes a [TS]

00:27:04   hundred percent of the cost of that book [TS]

00:27:06   he gets to retain because he paid all [TS]

00:27:08   the costs of production [TS]

00:27:09   yeah it's a big tits video we did that [TS]

00:27:11   actually when we started doing ebooks at [TS]

00:27:13   macworld was the same calculation which [TS]

00:27:15   was to sell direct you don't go through [TS]

00:27:17   a middleman your-your-your unity books [TS]

00:27:21   they take now we sell through a [TS]

00:27:23   middleman which sam is on your Apple but [TS]

00:27:25   it's it's believed me far more efficient [TS]

00:27:28   than going through a book publisher or [TS]

00:27:30   magazine distributor and that that's the [TS]

00:27:33   beauty of this is that you can sell you [TS]

00:27:35   don't need to sell 15,000 you can sell [TS]

00:27:38   ten thousand five thousand of whatever [TS]

00:27:40   you're doing and it comes back to that [TS]

00:27:41   which is where [TS]

00:27:42   it's a its audience fragmentation [TS]

00:27:43   everybody wants to have a best seller [TS]

00:27:45   but if you were building something that [TS]

00:27:47   is liked by a small group of people you [TS]

00:27:52   can you can do that and it's not a [TS]

00:27:53   failure which it in the past it would [TS]

00:27:55   have been a failure and know those [TS]

00:27:57   things wouldn't have existed but even [TS]

00:27:58   beyond that I think that the motivations [TS]

00:28:00   are fundamentally different there are [TS]

00:28:01   different methods for getting the stuff [TS]

00:28:03   out to people and the the indie [TS]

00:28:07   producers that are now able to take [TS]

00:28:11   advantage of these methods not only the [TS]

00:28:12   big corporations and they can like you [TS]

00:28:14   know IDG with macworld being able to get [TS]

00:28:16   more efficient distribution but people [TS]

00:28:18   who were doing stuff anyway for their [TS]

00:28:20   own edification can now find audiences [TS]

00:28:22   and make a profit yes and that's that I [TS]

00:28:25   think is the fundamental change [TS]

00:28:26   obviously business efficiencies are [TS]

00:28:28   really important and where was it this [TS]

00:28:31   is different [TS]

00:28:32   yes although i would argue with with [TS]

00:28:34   macros I mean there is a business [TS]

00:28:35   efficiency premiere but in the end we [TS]

00:28:36   wanted to have our content live beyond [TS]

00:28:39   where was that as editors and so and we [TS]

00:28:41   without really any business supervision [TS]

00:28:43   just 19 happened if you're using a book [TS]

00:28:46   so there's that was a little bit you [TS]

00:28:48   take the Robertsons and have passion [TS]

00:28:49   about exactly you would probably speed [TS]

00:28:51   sitting in your lonely apartment writing [TS]

00:28:53   articles about the mac if you couldn't [TS]

00:28:55   distribute them you know how do you know [TS]

00:28:56   about my lonely person and they believe [TS]

00:28:59   in taking them to your neighbor's door [TS]

00:29:00   it's only apartment while I and their [TS]

00:29:02   jobs well as / picture yeah I'm [TS]

00:29:05   extrapolating your life if you've never [TS]

00:29:06   met [TS]

00:29:06   yeah i thought so haha well played i [TS]

00:29:10   know that was where you were it's a [TS]

00:29:11   wonderful I life [TS]

00:29:12   yeah no it's not it's a lonely apartment [TS]

00:29:14   with a self-published thing he'd been [TS]

00:29:16   able librarian no I think all the the [TS]

00:29:20   business efficiencies that come for [TS]

00:29:21   traditional channels are terrific but [TS]

00:29:24   it's really the people who were [TS]

00:29:25   printings eens and there that can now [TS]

00:29:29   reach a much larger audience and can [TS]

00:29:32   make a living it [TS]

00:29:34   so one of the speakers at XOXO was Erica [TS]

00:29:37   moen right yeah who described her talk [TS]

00:29:41   who well she's an indie cartoonist [TS]

00:29:43   really what kind of into cartoon figures [TS]

00:29:45   your specialty she's got she discusses [TS]

00:29:48   many topics in her career things will [TS]

00:29:51   involves things that go inside of the [TS]

00:29:52   thing [TS]

00:29:53   yes that's right there based on that [TS]

00:29:54   make people happy but she her point i [TS]

00:29:57   think the overall point of her talking [TS]

00:29:59   to there's an excellent episode of clans [TS]

00:30:00   podcast the new disruptive read the on [TS]

00:30:04   another podcast the but was what was [TS]

00:30:06   really great about that that is that her [TS]

00:30:09   message was she's now able to be a [TS]

00:30:11   cartoonist for her living and she had [TS]

00:30:15   never in her life believed that her [TS]

00:30:18   thing that she loved the most in the [TS]

00:30:20   world would be anything but something [TS]

00:30:22   she had to do on the side because [TS]

00:30:23   artists you can't make a living being an [TS]

00:30:26   artist and the internet and web comics [TS]

00:30:28   and building her audience and selling [TS]

00:30:30   you know books and t-shirts and whatever [TS]

00:30:33   else she now makes her living as an [TS]

00:30:36   artist and that's so not only are people [TS]

00:30:38   getting this art that would otherwise [TS]

00:30:39   kind of maybe not be visible to them but [TS]

00:30:42   she can she can do that for her life and [TS]

00:30:45   that's amazing i want to bring up [TS]

00:30:46   something that will sound like I'm [TS]

00:30:47   totally off topic which is not the time [TS]

00:30:50   you and all I read those new york times [TS]

00:30:52   article about webcam girls and discuss [TS]

00:30:54   what I'm talking about anything but it [TS]

00:30:56   actually was interesting it was him this [TS]

00:30:57   time no unit is exactly the same [TS]

00:30:59   economics if you disregard what the [TS]

00:31:01   woman's job these are women who build [TS]

00:31:04   and ship out [TS]

00:31:05   webcams that's probably worth that's [TS]

00:31:07   right there electronic assembly woman [TS]

00:31:09   people like to watch electronics being a [TS]

00:31:10   sentence it'll be fun to watch women [TS]

00:31:13   assemble electronics there's already [TS]

00:31:15   unstable severe weather doesn't its [TS]

00:31:17   rules be going to have very few managers [TS]

00:31:19   yeah you do around the the next great [TS]

00:31:21   industry rule 34 is you can see women [TS]

00:31:23   doing anything you want the including [TS]

00:31:25   assembly electronics whatsoever but the [TS]

00:31:27   economics of are identical is that women [TS]

00:31:29   who used to be in operations you know in [TS]

00:31:31   its sexual rings and with pimps whatever [TS]

00:31:33   they're now independent producers they [TS]

00:31:35   control their environment they keep it [TS]

00:31:36   much fair percentage as much as fifty to [TS]

00:31:38   sixty percent of what they make their a [TS]

00:31:40   safer place [TS]

00:31:41   they're entrepreneurs they have to [TS]

00:31:43   employ marketing and it's a direct [TS]

00:31:44   connection and you're like I'm so i'm [TS]

00:31:46   actually not being contentious about [TS]

00:31:47   this site it was reading it going like [TS]

00:31:49   this is just like this is an independent [TS]

00:31:51   producer thing yeah and it is [TS]

00:31:52   disintermediated you know people shows [TS]

00:31:55   or ok to live pictures in the same way [TS]

00:31:57   that that yeah so tired [TS]

00:32:01   haha the disinformation people do that [TS]

00:32:04   that's that that's the old story that [TS]

00:32:06   but you know that pornography always [TS]

00:32:08   finds new technology i mean not really [TS]

00:32:10   really didn't have any partner it wasn't [TS]

00:32:13   the first time no nerds nerds got there [TS]

00:32:15   first and only later did pornography [TS]

00:32:17   rush in but absolutely I it's going to [TS]

00:32:20   be rushed it and what you get is you get [TS]

00:32:22   a you get stuff whether it's whether [TS]

00:32:25   it's webcam girls or its books or movies [TS]

00:32:27   or TV shows or whatever you get or [TS]

00:32:29   webcomics you're getting there was a [TS]

00:32:32   build-up then suddenly haha so you're [TS]

00:32:36   getting i'm just going to sit here but [TS]

00:32:38   you're you're getting a greater [TS]

00:32:41   diversity of stuff to i mean that's [TS]

00:32:43   that's that's what it's gonna add to [TS]

00:32:45   turn pivot this from being talking about [TS]

00:32:46   the creator's talking about that [TS]

00:32:48   consumed the consumers you you get stuff [TS]

00:32:51   that would you know it's like wow [TS]

00:32:52   imagine if he had written more books and [TS]

00:32:54   it turns out he wanted to write more [TS]

00:32:55   books but they never sold so you never [TS]

00:32:57   saw them now you'd see that the artist [TS]

00:33:00   as executive development is is [TS]

00:33:01   discoverability how you find this among [TS]

00:33:03   the vast see what's available is I have [TS]

00:33:07   limited amount of time I person with a [TS]

00:33:09   publisher was a really good filter right [TS]

00:33:11   because it's somebody had already found [TS]

00:33:14   and there are tools for finding out with [TS]

00:33:16   my friends like and but it's I don't [TS]

00:33:19   think that's a solved problem yet is how [TS]

00:33:22   can you find new things [TS]

00:33:23   the the most worthy new things how did [TS]

00:33:26   they find audiences they have the tools [TS]

00:33:27   available to them now but how do you [TS]

00:33:29   break out how do you get past the noise [TS]

00:33:31   and I don't think that's assault [TS]

00:33:33   no word of mouth came up a lot of XOXO [TS]

00:33:35   and and it struck me because I feel like [TS]

00:33:37   with with with this podcast with other [TS]

00:33:40   podcast that I like nobody's ever heard [TS]

00:33:42   of any of them and I and I'm and it's [TS]

00:33:45   strange paths like John siracusa worked [TS]

00:33:48   with a guy whose brother did a podcast [TS]

00:33:51   and that was the flophouse and junk [TS]

00:33:53   siracusa told me [TS]

00:33:55   yeah and I told people on this podcast [TS]

00:33:56   and i love the flophouse and you know it [TS]

00:33:58   gets around but it's not like there's [TS]

00:34:00   you know marketing there are millions of [TS]

00:34:03   people who would love the uncomfortable [TS]

00:34:05   billions of people who have less income [TS]

00:34:07   from just not that I States this is the [TS]

00:34:10   problem is that we're in the Golan [TS]

00:34:11   Golden Age of podcasting gentleman and I [TS]

00:34:13   propose we take advantage of but no this [TS]

00:34:15   isn't this is a new renaissance Harry [TS]

00:34:17   this is the new renaissance and [TS]

00:34:19   podcasting because for some reason we've [TS]

00:34:21   seen many total explosion new podcast [TS]

00:34:24   people brought passion back in there is [TS]

00:34:25   a little more money in the system that [TS]

00:34:27   helps people are chasing it thanks like [TS]

00:34:28   this for thanks to our sponsors a panda [TS]

00:34:31   but but i would say that like that [TS]

00:34:33   hinders discoverability there used to be [TS]

00:34:36   when i was at amazon 96 there were I [TS]

00:34:38   want to say 25,000 new books published [TS]

00:34:40   by major publishing houses like the top [TS]

00:34:42   200 a year and they were like 250,000 [TS]

00:34:45   books published if you include all the [TS]

00:34:46   self-publishing small house in ds1 [TS]

00:34:49   office whatever there are something like [TS]

00:34:50   if you don't include me but now there's [TS]

00:34:52   a million-plus books in the united [TS]

00:34:54   states now published every year and that [TS]

00:34:57   only counts the number of things that [TS]

00:34:58   get ISBN and so forth includes ebooks [TS]

00:35:00   are now half of that how do you find [TS]

00:35:02   something when there's a million new [TS]

00:35:03   passat read most of them haha he's [TS]

00:35:06   forgotten [TS]

00:35:07   yes was that no help there and then he [TS]

00:35:09   forgets it so yeah we put on goodreads i [TS]

00:35:11   mean i have to say that again if you can [TS]

00:35:13   get in the water somewhere somewhere in [TS]

00:35:15   the water supply then social media can [TS]

00:35:18   help then think sites like goodreads or [TS]

00:35:20   whatever problems you're trapped into [TS]

00:35:21   the bubble of your friend but that's [TS]

00:35:23   that's which turned my friends happen to [TS]

00:35:25   be nerd i love that song trapped in the [TS]

00:35:27   bubble of my friend of scientists way [TS]

00:35:29   back to the origin you know how it is i [TS]

00:35:31   find the kind of the little other things [TS]

00:35:33   and and it's it's their it I feel it [TS]

00:35:36   lost sometimes because there's so much [TS]

00:35:38   out there that i know i'm missing and I [TS]

00:35:40   i have you should use 12 OCT 10 0 as [TS]

00:35:44   it's totally unlike most people of our [TS]

00:35:47   ilk and I want to be able to be a [TS]

00:35:50   completist but also sample widely and [TS]

00:35:53   with the a limited amount of time that I [TS]

00:35:56   have I don't know where to find things [TS]

00:35:57   that would blow me away that aren't what [TS]

00:35:59   I'm normally consumer and you can get [TS]

00:36:01   some of that from word-of-mouth but you [TS]

00:36:03   know you're missing the things that just [TS]

00:36:05   didn't like I said we know about the [TS]

00:36:07   flophouse if John siracusa hadn't worked [TS]

00:36:10   with dan McCoy's brother [TS]

00:36:12   I mean that's such a random connection [TS]

00:36:13   right and and that goes for almost [TS]

00:36:16   anything that we would discover it's [TS]

00:36:17   like how do i hear about you named the [TS]

00:36:19   favorite book favorite artists [TS]

00:36:21   maybe through luck it got here but [TS]

00:36:22   there's gotta be [TS]

00:36:23   would think that this technology would [TS]

00:36:25   enable us to do as a child and that [TS]

00:36:27   every problem can be solved with [TS]

00:36:28   technology i'm sure i'm including a [TS]

00:36:30   personal and emotional problems [TS]

00:36:32   yeah and you're going on a pit stops all [TS]

00:36:34   some of that I like that I i want this [TS]

00:36:36   social problem solved as well and my [TS]

00:36:38   approach is technological but that's [TS]

00:36:40   maybe not the right approach that's the [TS]

00:36:42   hammer i have to hit this particular [TS]

00:36:43   nail I just that I feel like the [TS]

00:36:46   allowing people to create was no 8 [TS]

00:36:50   age-old you know they're painting on [TS]

00:36:51   cave walls they have an impetus to [TS]

00:36:52   create now extending my cave paintings [TS]

00:36:55   there and and for a long time [TS]

00:36:57   traditional media methods built up in [TS]

00:36:59   order to distribute this stuff and they [TS]

00:37:01   became ossified and inefficient and then [TS]

00:37:03   new technology has come in and and her [TS]

00:37:06   damaged a lot of that's traditional [TS]

00:37:07   things while replacing it with new stuff [TS]

00:37:09   that is more egalitarian more democratic [TS]

00:37:11   more open to alternative voices you know [TS]

00:37:15   the the gatekeepers argument well i [TS]

00:37:17   think that you know but but what's the [TS]

00:37:19   next step [TS]

00:37:20   where do we go am I being impatient [TS]

00:37:21   because we're still undergoing the [TS]

00:37:23   previous revolution partly really i mean [TS]

00:37:25   i think we'll what's nice is that is [TS]

00:37:27   that like now there are also a lot of [TS]

00:37:30   hammers but you can but one thing about [TS]

00:37:33   the the only want to be hammered by [TS]

00:37:35   somebody else and we're back to that [TS]

00:37:37   again for huh i was thinking it is [TS]

00:37:41   better but what's interesting about [TS]

00:37:45   about it all was the indie stuff that is [TS]

00:37:49   being talked about here is that you have [TS]

00:37:53   a lot more I know [TS]

00:37:55   audience participation that's not really [TS]

00:37:57   the right term but but you have more [TS]

00:37:59   like direct interaction more people [TS]

00:38:03   yeah who like your thing who are willing [TS]

00:38:05   to to to spread that message I mean like [TS]

00:38:08   I i think with indie game one of the [TS]

00:38:11   things that they talked about you people [TS]

00:38:12   that are on getting all this i think um [TS]

00:38:15   was it straight friends like like they [TS]

00:38:17   would go and do screenings in different [TS]

00:38:19   places but they would have volunteers [TS]

00:38:21   who would like set them up there and [TS]

00:38:23   like look like advanced people that [TS]

00:38:26   because they love this thing right are [TS]

00:38:28   willing to do work half of having that [TS]

00:38:30   connection you you would go to the mat [TS]

00:38:32   like I would read books favorite books [TS]

00:38:34   as a kid and that the novelist was [TS]

00:38:36   literally [TS]

00:38:37   the name on the cover and I knew nothing [TS]

00:38:38   more about them and that that doesn't [TS]

00:38:41   happen today right i mean that and with [TS]

00:38:43   made big artist it does but with the [TS]

00:38:44   smartest you feel like you know them you [TS]

00:38:46   you hear them on a podcast or you follow [TS]

00:38:48   them on Twitter and you would go it's a [TS]

00:38:51   funny thing about human societies in the [TS]

00:38:52   way we're kind of Wired is you would go [TS]

00:38:54   to the mat for some because they're not [TS]

00:38:55   they're no longer this person who is a [TS]

00:38:57   musician they're like I know that person [TS]

00:38:58   you have back-channel to them you can [TS]

00:39:00   subscribe to their twitter account you [TS]

00:39:01   can read their blog suddenly there's a [TS]

00:39:02   conversation going on even if it's not [TS]

00:39:05   my strength I was the writer it's not [TS]

00:39:06   sign out there I work and then there's [TS]

00:39:08   much more intimate connection speed that [TS]

00:39:10   is also i think there's the danger is if [TS]

00:39:12   there is a jerk there's a problem but [TS]

00:39:13   why does that happen to you Jason you [TS]

00:39:16   whippersnapper [TS]

00:39:17   what are you tired i'm not talking about [TS]

00:39:19   anybody here know I'm talkin about 10 [TS]

00:39:22   more now other than that there's a [TS]

00:39:24   result in sorry I didn't look for [TS]

00:39:26   recommendations we talked about this [TS]

00:39:28   before my friends that's like there's [TS]

00:39:29   people who go for the so from the [TS]

00:39:31   artist's perspective they now have [TS]

00:39:32   possibly right there's people go to the [TS]

00:39:34   mat for them they're people who have [TS]

00:39:36   very little some audience people who [TS]

00:39:37   read or bi or enjoy their stuff a much [TS]

00:39:40   smaller audience and true fans but the [TS]

00:39:42   true fans now have a way to spread the [TS]

00:39:44   true religion in a way they didn't [TS]

00:39:46   before right so i have people and it's [TS]

00:39:47   actually exciting I people are out there [TS]

00:39:49   saying like you should listen to the new [TS]

00:39:51   disrupted by the way people how to do [TS]

00:39:52   these references or or what i read the [TS]

00:39:54   magazine or whatever i'm working on and [TS]

00:39:56   it's exciting to Jeff cross those people [TS]

00:39:58   read his book and you know you should [TS]

00:39:59   get this book there's usually blog for [TS]

00:40:01   the only way to spread that people have [TS]

00:40:03   to find a blog news RSS whatever in the [TS]

00:40:05   old days the old and it is well here we [TS]

00:40:09   know and tell you already got 10 years [TS]

00:40:11   ago but now I think that there's an [TS]

00:40:14   acceleration is that you get the viral [TS]

00:40:16   edge and so projects like indie game or [TS]

00:40:18   things that are going to the glyph is [TS]

00:40:20   the classic when the ipod or ipad iphone [TS]

00:40:23   tripod-mounted is a these guys went from [TS]

00:40:26   zero to you know hundred thousand [TS]

00:40:28   dollars in 2010 i think it was for this [TS]

00:40:31   plastic they were x XOXO last year too [TS]

00:40:34   that's right and they and then they've [TS]

00:40:36   done stuff ever since but the but they [TS]

00:40:39   got there because a few people saw it [TS]

00:40:42   was fascinating and pushed it out to [TS]

00:40:44   some influencers you have the dairy [TS]

00:40:46   fireballs that were [TS]

00:40:47   and don't dig may come back yet and [TS]

00:40:49   other sites and things that you go to [TS]

00:40:51   where if it's mentioned i know somebody [TS]

00:40:53   like twitter is fascinating where you [TS]

00:40:55   could have something with five million [TS]

00:40:57   followers will mention one kind of thing [TS]

00:40:59   and nothing happens to be like really [TS]

00:41:00   like LA and it's crickets anything [TS]

00:41:03   that's another thing and 50,000 people [TS]

00:41:05   pledge twenty dollars in five minutes [TS]

00:41:08   yeah it's it seems to me that what we're [TS]

00:41:11   saying here is that we've revolutionized [TS]

00:41:13   the ability to distribute and create [TS]

00:41:15   independently but it's all still really [TS]

00:41:18   random when it comes to discovery and [TS]

00:41:21   market is stolen and famous well I mean [TS]

00:41:23   and that's why you get this tendency to [TS]

00:41:25   have stuff by famous people stuff by [TS]

00:41:28   existing artists things like that [TS]

00:41:29   because they it's a perfect time for [TS]

00:41:32   there's other ways because they're good [TS]

00:41:34   they're good at I think that I think the [TS]

00:41:36   ones that excel this the most are um you [TS]

00:41:39   know like musical artists and and maybe [TS]

00:41:42   some writers but I think about the [TS]

00:41:44   musical artists that have a fan of a fan [TS]

00:41:46   base that's too small that there they [TS]

00:41:48   were big they had one hit ten years ago [TS]

00:41:50   they had four hits 20 years ago or [TS]

00:41:52   something like that and there you know [TS]

00:41:54   they can go from effort to every city [TS]

00:41:56   and and get a thousand people but that [TS]

00:41:58   there as a you know it's too [TS]

00:42:01   it's not hot enough they're not they're [TS]

00:42:03   not a superstar and I think it used to [TS]

00:42:05   be really hard for them and I think it's [TS]

00:42:08   easier now I think that some of them [TS]

00:42:10   saying playing 200 state fairs a year is [TS]

00:42:12   not a great one looking well they're [TS]

00:42:14   really retro and if you don't like i'm [TS]

00:42:16   thinking more like musical artists that [TS]

00:42:17   whenever they were never the rolling [TS]

00:42:19   stones and and they were never journey [TS]

00:42:23   right where they were huge and now [TS]

00:42:24   they're very small and they replaced the [TS]

00:42:26   lead singer and still bitter about that [TS]

00:42:27   but uh sorry journey but that's a lot of [TS]

00:42:30   podcasts variability we already did our [TS]

00:42:32   podcast on journey we're going to st [TS]

00:42:33   mary's pipettes that's just an example [TS]

00:42:35   which is the other oceans is three [TS]

00:42:37   sisters to perform years ago they were [TS]

00:42:39   fairly popular folk song act and one of [TS]

00:42:41   them is the mother of the rufus [TS]

00:42:44   wainwright the 1300 former and so [TS]

00:42:47   they're kind of this circle and one of [TS]

00:42:49   them tried to raise money think was [TS]

00:42:50   zeros try to raise money on IndieGoGo [TS]

00:42:53   and did [TS]

00:42:53   reach a goal for it because it was so [TS]

00:42:56   different than anything you've ever done [TS]

00:42:57   if she'd try to do another album of the [TS]

00:43:00   kind of stuff people that like her [TS]

00:43:01   producing for a 30-plus years I think [TS]

00:43:04   she would have even easily succeeded [TS]

00:43:06   this trouble for that kind of artist [TS]

00:43:07   where they want to shift direction then [TS]

00:43:09   these mechanisms don't necessarily work [TS]

00:43:10   is kickstarter exbest as either i'm [TS]

00:43:13   really famous and I want to do a thing [TS]

00:43:15   that's different than a thing or you [TS]

00:43:17   know me sort of and I want to do another [TS]

00:43:18   thing that's so much like the things you [TS]

00:43:20   like that you'll find this because you [TS]

00:43:21   want another one of those things you [TS]

00:43:22   like one of the things about XOXO and [TS]

00:43:25   about the enthusiasm that we're talking [TS]

00:43:26   about here for these new methods is that [TS]

00:43:28   not many people are talking about the [TS]

00:43:30   failures about the difficulties of his [TS]

00:43:31   system that that this is a very survivor [TS]

00:43:36   biased tape on the new strands is that [TS]

00:43:40   we talked about the successes because [TS]

00:43:41   they're the interesting things we talked [TS]

00:43:42   about the people who haven't really [TS]

00:43:44   working but there are also people that [TS]

00:43:47   have put their passion into it put into [TS]

00:43:49   the system and then it doesn't play [TS]

00:43:50   I thought about doing a couple different [TS]

00:43:53   to Kickstarter projects and I'm [TS]

00:43:54   terrified to do it because i'm i'm [TS]

00:43:57   almost certain that it will fail and it [TS]

00:43:59   what about your marinated unquestioning [TS]

00:44:00   fanbase minus minefield looking up on [TS]

00:44:03   going out myself by myself live and [TS]

00:44:05   reminded that i was going to do a quick [TS]

00:44:06   kick start background actually I know [TS]

00:44:09   anyone with two problems are several [TS]

00:44:11   problems and I learned a lot from it i [TS]

00:44:12   started the podcast and change my whole [TS]

00:44:14   life but that this is over a year ago [TS]

00:44:16   and one of them was I said the reward [TS]

00:44:17   levels too high that's pretty clear [TS]

00:44:19   there's issues there but the other one [TS]

00:44:21   was people I've never written a book [TS]

00:44:24   like this i don't have an audience yet [TS]

00:44:26   the new structures help me build an [TS]

00:44:28   audience that might be interested in [TS]

00:44:29   buying a book of the kind of wrote third [TS]

00:44:31   thing was people thought I was joking [TS]

00:44:33   because people know I joke and Twitter [TS]

00:44:35   and I'm like I'm i'm writing a [TS]

00:44:37   crowdfunding a book about crowdfunding [TS]

00:44:38   was very mad haha like no really so I [TS]

00:44:41   think everybody's tender people what you [TS]

00:44:43   always have a Kickstarter so you could [TS]

00:44:45   produce a Kickstarter to do your book [TS]

00:44:47   that's what I'm working on that but it's [TS]

00:44:49   a variance that was the other hand [TS]

00:44:51   conception or interpretation but but I [TS]

00:44:53   didn't you know what the key is can you [TS]

00:44:55   learn from your failures in that regard [TS]

00:44:57   and I totally did and I've done a lot of [TS]

00:44:59   things I feel very successful as an [TS]

00:45:01   outcome [TS]

00:45:01   and I'm the new disruptors podcast is my [TS]

00:45:04   attempt to build an audience says Oh [TS]

00:45:06   Glenn does this thing maybe a book [TS]

00:45:08   version of or some other version of this [TS]

00:45:10   thing that he's been doing for a year or [TS]

00:45:11   two years would not be worth I don't [TS]

00:45:13   need to put you on the spot why haven't [TS]

00:45:14   you talked about that about the failure [TS]

00:45:16   yeah I did actually SI but you just [TS]

00:45:18   don't read everything i would not meet [TS]

00:45:20   every time haha it's a full-time job and [TS]

00:45:24   salary [TS]

00:45:25   whens Kickstarter is going to be a book [TS]

00:45:26   starts a hundred-thousand-dollar [TS]

00:45:28   genomics it's a book series following [TS]

00:45:30   our mechanical turk degree the Thousand [TS]

00:45:32   Islands i wrote a post to the time and [TS]

00:45:34   actually some forgot the site some site [TS]

00:45:36   that is the thing which was like haha [TS]

00:45:38   crowd funding grant money transfer book [TS]

00:45:40   doesn't go and i taught that doesn't [TS]

00:45:41   fire and I talked to the guy is like all [TS]

00:45:43   this is actually you know I'm sorry [TS]

00:45:45   nearly exactly funny it was like I [TS]

00:45:47   understand what sounds funny and he went [TS]

00:45:48   back and he broke something was actually [TS]

00:45:50   fairly reasonable when i explained like [TS]

00:45:51   here's the five or six things that are [TS]

00:45:53   wrong and I didn't cost me that cost me [TS]

00:45:55   time for us Jeff Rossen shoot the videos [TS]

00:45:58   that cost him time to but what I didn't [TS]

00:46:00   have any hard costs feeling into it and [TS]

00:46:03   then I've developed a whole new career [TS]

00:46:04   and I think that's awesome and I wish we [TS]

00:46:06   had more stories like that the this [TS]

00:46:08   there's hype around this man is just a [TS]

00:46:11   probable light right but there's also an [TS]

00:46:13   entire other side of it for things that [TS]

00:46:14   don't work and how we fix that now [TS]

00:46:17   before we go really quickly i wanted to [TS]

00:46:19   because we're running out of time I [TS]

00:46:20   wanted to go around the table and which [TS]

00:46:23   is an actual table because we're sitting [TS]

00:46:24   at a table and just really briefly if [TS]

00:46:26   you've got some specific thing that you [TS]

00:46:28   want to mention that you that you've [TS]

00:46:30   enjoyed or supported that was a an indie [TS]

00:46:34   project or something that is just out of [TS]

00:46:36   the traditional means because I know [TS]

00:46:37   that that's what we usually talk about [TS]

00:46:38   on the podcast and I wanted to at least [TS]

00:46:41   able for us to give some shouts out to [TS]

00:46:44   two ND stuff that we liked Greg to you [TS]

00:46:47   you haven't some things you want to [TS]

00:46:48   promote one of the first web comics ever [TS]

00:46:50   started reading and it was eons ago was [TS]

00:46:53   lucky freelance and that's actually been [TS]

00:46:55   going for 16 years now and he's been [TS]

00:46:56   doing it as a full-time job for 12 I [TS]

00:46:58   think wow and it is insane [TS]

00:47:01   it is an epic epic story in comic strip [TS]

00:47:06   form it's hilarious [TS]

00:47:07   it's well-drawn you can see his art [TS]

00:47:09   improving over the past 16 years along [TS]

00:47:11   with his characterizations and the depth [TS]

00:47:13   of his story he will [TS]

00:47:14   reference things from a decade ago and [TS]

00:47:17   if you happen to have that knowledge it [TS]

00:47:18   makes the the interaction so let your [TS]

00:47:21   deeper and so when I started reading it [TS]

00:47:22   like 10 12 years ago I went back and it [TS]

00:47:26   during a slow time at work and I read [TS]

00:47:28   six years of archives and I've kept up [TS]

00:47:30   with it ever since [TS]

00:47:31   and that was my first real interaction [TS]

00:47:35   with somebody who was doing something on [TS]

00:47:37   the side that had a level of success and [TS]

00:47:39   allowed him to go ahead and do it [TS]

00:47:41   full-time [TS]

00:47:42   alright cool Jeff what about you [TS]

00:47:44   actually I don't have anything to [TS]

00:47:46   recommend because i'm on that that that [TS]

00:47:48   other side which is like like I'm the [TS]

00:47:51   beneficiary of all of this like there's [TS]

00:47:53   this great podcast called the [TS]

00:47:54   incomparable that that that has 11 i was [TS]

00:47:57   going to recommend that i'll go ahead [TS]

00:47:59   it's led me to wonderful things yeah [TS]

00:48:01   yes is the jibber on about yeah just one [TS]

00:48:03   or two yeah that's got McNulty you can't [TS]

00:48:06   shut up i'm touching likes but but you [TS]

00:48:10   know like you for example Jason like I [TS]

00:48:13   never done you just wanna do dis ruptor [TS]

00:48:16   your new disruptive i feel like i'm [TS]

00:48:19   reading comics now because of your [TS]

00:48:21   recommendation and and and and more and [TS]

00:48:24   then I think that that you know i would [TS]

00:48:28   probably miss a lot of the indie stuff [TS]

00:48:30   like I'm the target market out to say oh [TS]

00:48:33   like here's something that's interesting [TS]

00:48:35   and and usually it's because you know [TS]

00:48:37   like Glenn has has contributed to a [TS]

00:48:40   kickstarter and because i have had done [TS]

00:48:42   stuff in the past i get a thing from [TS]

00:48:44   them saying when freshman did this maybe [TS]

00:48:46   you will be like right yeah that's [TS]

00:48:47   totally what so you're the recipient of [TS]

00:48:49   the word of mouth from these projects [TS]

00:48:51   and end up supporting some of them are [TS]

00:48:53   reading the comics or whatever yes [TS]

00:48:55   you're listening to yeah exactly it and [TS]

00:48:57   now I want to add one more thing what [TS]

00:48:59   greg was seen that jack chang who who [TS]

00:49:03   spoke he wrote a novel called these days [TS]

00:49:05   one of the things that was great about [TS]

00:49:07   his talk was that you know he talked [TS]

00:49:10   about how great it is to to to crowdfund [TS]

00:49:13   that his is novel which I thought was [TS]

00:49:15   sort of weird at first like like it [TS]

00:49:17   can you just write the novel and then go [TS]

00:49:20   searching for it but you know like the [TS]

00:49:21   different models but then he said he's [TS]

00:49:23   like oh and you don't have to quit your [TS]

00:49:24   day job like this italia sigh thing [TS]

00:49:27   right and I'm [TS]

00:49:27   my living doing something else which [TS]

00:49:29   like sounded kind of refreshing here [TS]

00:49:31   because it like most of things always [TS]

00:49:34   get guess somebody somebody understand [TS]

00:49:36   their jobs seriously considering [TS]

00:49:38   starting a conference called don't quit [TS]

00:49:39   your day job is about being an [TS]

00:49:41   independent content creator he sort of [TS]

00:49:43   fulfilling your dream while also meeting [TS]

00:49:45   your family your family isn't yeah he [TS]

00:49:48   said I expected value of the speakers [TS]

00:49:49   will be middle-aged people with families [TS]

00:49:51   gonna really gonna do it wasn't like it [TS]

00:49:54   was great to be able to hear that 24 in [TS]

00:49:56   the afternoon yeah go home to bed now it [TS]

00:49:58   starts at seven at night and engines [TS]

00:50:00   love you [TS]

00:50:01   what about you oh well uh i was looking [TS]

00:50:03   through i was looking through my [TS]

00:50:04   Kickstarter back to things because i [TS]

00:50:06   think i've put most of my effort into [TS]

00:50:08   supporting stuff that's wound up on [TS]

00:50:10   kickstarter and I flaming carrot comics [TS]

00:50:14   they did this great Kickstarter where [TS]

00:50:15   it's like I don't even know Bob burden [TS]

00:50:17   the Creator is still alive he's kind of [TS]

00:50:18   can't figure if he's actually crazy or [TS]

00:50:22   he has an incredibly good active and [TS]

00:50:23   sustaining for decades i think its a mix [TS]

00:50:25   about but he put out a Kickstarter to [TS]

00:50:28   finish some stuff put it about deluxe [TS]

00:50:30   collection he threw in all kinds of [TS]

00:50:32   weird stuff and it's a it's one of the [TS]

00:50:34   most surreal comics i forgot i even [TS]

00:50:36   known issues i have a pile of them from [TS]

00:50:37   the early days and and it was great so I [TS]

00:50:40   back that and I was delighted to see [TS]

00:50:42   something that was truly in the end of [TS]

00:50:45   indie spirit 30 20 30 years ago with [TS]

00:50:48   they did everything on their own and [TS]

00:50:49   they kind of went out of some of the [TS]

00:50:51   comic book labels and come back and see [TS]

00:50:53   some new material and collection the old [TS]

00:50:55   stuff very cool and I'm i mentioned a [TS]

00:50:57   bunch of stuff earlier you have these [TS]

00:50:59   wool being a successful nanowrimo novel [TS]

00:51:02   that turned into a successful self [TS]

00:51:04   published novel that is now a successful [TS]

00:51:06   actually professionally published novel [TS]

00:51:09   and it's pretty good so check it out [TS]

00:51:12   well this wraps up our time in the one [TS]

00:51:15   in this little room i also want to give [TS]

00:51:17   a thanks to luma labs for providing the [TS]

00:51:20   space they are the makers of fine [TS]

00:51:22   product called cinch cinch which if you [TS]

00:51:26   are a photographer and you want to have [TS]

00:51:28   your SLR not be annoying to you and [TS]

00:51:32   readily available to take pictures the [TS]

00:51:34   Cinch is here we were getting struct [TS]

00:51:36   yeah that's sort of it kind of murder [TS]

00:51:38   and go to luma dad has [TS]

00:51:39   dot-com you put it around your they [TS]

00:51:41   didn't even know we were going to [TS]

00:51:42   mention the biggest space and we really [TS]

00:51:44   appreciate a great conductor for letting [TS]

00:51:47   us a barge into their space on sunday [TS]

00:51:49   morning and record this so thanks to [TS]

00:51:51   them and i would like to thank my guests [TS]

00:51:53   for gathering around this table Glenn [TS]

00:51:54   fleischmann thanks for being here [TS]

00:51:56   I didn't mention Stephen Fry just want [TS]

00:51:57   you to know you did actually using it [TS]

00:52:00   nice try nice try Jeff girls and thanks [TS]

00:52:03   for being back I can't wait till we do [TS]

00:52:04   another life never liked that the only [TS]

00:52:06   time I into your life you don't show up [TS]

00:52:08   on on recording so we live and great NOS [TS]

00:52:10   thank you again for showing up like I [TS]

00:52:12   can't wait until we do another life but [TS]

00:52:13   ya be on the podcast some other time [TS]

00:52:15   yeah to do you have a family history and [TS]

00:52:19   science really busy creating yes I know [TS]

00:52:21   that's right independent content [TS]

00:52:22   creation of code someone sound like [TS]

00:52:25   earlier yeah I didn't tell you what I [TS]

00:52:28   was created planned and then and for the [TS]

00:52:30   comfortable i'm your host Jason don't [TS]

00:52:31   thanks for listening and guys did you [TS]

00:52:33   think anybody noticed that we were naked [TS]

00:52:34   when we recorded this [TS]