0:00:00[Music]
0:00:02you're listening to hypercritical
0:00:03episode number 22 this is a weekly
0:00:06talkshow ruminating on exactly what is
0:00:08wrong in the world of Apple related
0:00:10technologies and businesses you see
0:00:12nothing is so perfect that it can't be
0:00:15complained about bhaijaan siracusa I'm
0:00:19Dan benjamin we would like to say thanks
0:00:21to fresh books calm and felt-tip calm
0:00:25makers of sound studio for for making
0:00:27this show possible we'll tell you more
0:00:29about them as a show goes on hey John
0:00:32hey Dan so you're back from WWDC big
0:00:36week for you first WWDC finally have
0:00:39some clarity to think back on sure
0:00:41you've been busy writing your lion
0:00:43expose I've been trying to waiting for
0:00:47them to change things again they keep
0:00:49changing things there was there was an
0:00:51update what two days ago or something
0:00:53yeah changed a bunch of stuff at this
0:00:56point I should just give up taking
0:00:57screenshots and just it's not just
0:01:00screenshots like adding and removing
0:01:01features it's just stuff but yeah I'm
0:01:05writing slowly and it's a slog and I
0:01:08don't know if I'm gonna make it well you
0:01:11and you need it typically you release
0:01:13your right up your big write-up your 50
0:01:15to 60 page document tome of wisdom
0:01:20you usually release that the same day
0:01:23that line actually hits the streets
0:01:26right or that do a so general the past
0:01:29two or three releases I've had my review
0:01:31ready on the day that it releases but
0:01:35occasionally ours holds it back for
0:01:38traffic reasons so again again I'll say
0:01:41what you can't and shame on them well I
0:01:44mean that they they have a point with
0:01:46the numbers if you really something on a
0:01:48Friday or Saturday forget it it just
0:01:50dies no matter what it is yeah except
0:01:52the show by the way
0:01:54well yeah it's you know podcasts are
0:01:56different it then then websites as
0:01:59people I guess people read it work or
0:02:01something I'm trying to figure out why
0:02:02it is that the numbers are so skewed but
0:02:05they really are skewed like you do not
0:02:06want to release something on the eve of
0:02:08a weekend because it will not get read
0:02:10but if you release on a Monday or
0:02:11Tuesday gets read like crazy I guess
0:02:13it's people read
0:02:13at work because you know once once
0:02:15they're not at work they're not sitting
0:02:16in front of the computer all day they do
0:02:17fun stuff on the weekends they don't
0:02:19read but podcasts are some of that fun
0:02:21stuff I think so people like to listen
0:02:23to podcasts on weekends when I clean the
0:02:25house or go for a run or whatever I
0:02:27guess I guess I don't I'm like I'm one
0:02:29of those people that my although I might
0:02:32not be recording on the weekends my
0:02:33habits don't change that much I mean you
0:02:35know you do more with family but I'll
0:02:38still read stuff on the weekend in fact
0:02:39the weekend is sometimes that's the only
0:02:40chance I get to read stuff yeah well
0:02:43we're not average people in that regard
0:02:45David have you ever looked at your
0:02:46numbers and see any of this well I guess
0:02:48it's weird because like iTunes downloads
0:02:49them and that and that's the only tick
0:02:51that you get on your servers and then
0:02:53God knows when people actually listen to
0:02:54it so yeah that's that's the thing you
0:02:56can see when people download it and
0:02:58typically most of the downloads happen
0:03:00in the first 12 hours after the show
0:03:02comes out although certain shows that
0:03:04they can have like a resurgence or
0:03:07something but typically most of the
0:03:09downloads regardless of the day that
0:03:11they happen within first 12 or 24 hours
0:03:13and like you said I have no idea when
0:03:15people are listening and sometimes it's
0:03:17the same day but it seems to follow a
0:03:19pattern if we release something like in
0:03:21later in the day people are getting it
0:03:23they're usually listening to it next day
0:03:24because the next day I'll see all these
0:03:26tweets about oh you know you and
0:03:29siracusa said this but it's a date you
0:03:30know they're hearing it the next day
0:03:31typically which is okay yeah that's
0:03:34alright as long as they're not listening
0:03:35to the double-speed yeah I see the delay
0:03:38to like after we've done the show and
0:03:40I've you know forgotten about it two
0:03:43days later it'll be this big flood of
0:03:44feedback and tweets and stuff like that
0:03:46so people are on the lack like how
0:03:48people are still talking about that that
0:03:49was a year ago yeah so you're trying to
0:03:52break my format here although I really
0:03:54don't have any follow up we should have
0:03:55done that at the beginning I don't they
0:03:57I don't have anything from past shows
0:03:59well I guess my main topic today is
0:04:01follow up because it's WWDC announcement
0:04:03related hmm I do have a small topic to
0:04:09complain about before we get to the main
0:04:10topic which is really only related to
0:04:14complaining and not so much related to
0:04:16technology or Apple but since when has
0:04:18that ever stopped me so the other day I
0:04:21was searching for something on Google
0:04:24for use in my review actually and
0:04:27was searching for basically an audio
0:04:32clip from an episode of The Simpsons
0:04:33many of which are stored neatly into my
0:04:36brain and can be recalled at a moment's
0:04:38notice but I wanted the actual audio you
0:04:41know and so other other people besides
0:04:43you could hear it yeah and in my
0:04:46estimation that's fair use right like if
0:04:48you want a two-second clip from The
0:04:50Simpsons to use where we want to go oh
0:04:52you're using it in an article actually
0:04:53yeah I always have sounds linked to
0:04:56stuff in an article it amuses me to do
0:04:58it and it doesn't bother most other
0:05:00people like there's a blue underlined
0:05:01word that if you were to click on it
0:05:02would play a sound from The Simpsons
0:05:04does that add to the article I don't
0:05:06know it makes it more enjoyable for me
0:05:08to write it certainly so yeah I've
0:05:10always had those in my reviews and I
0:05:13just thought oh I'd like to get that one
0:05:14now we have the internet which seems
0:05:17like a great match for the Simpsons
0:05:18obsessive nerds computers surely I can
0:05:21find the exact quote that I want but
0:05:24which if I remember it is probably a
0:05:26fairly famous quote and not just some
0:05:28random line from an episode and extract
0:05:30that a little bit of audio and to find
0:05:33the audio usually what you're looking
0:05:34for is video but it's hard to find audio
0:05:36only so I do a quick Google search
0:05:38usually just have to type Simpsons and
0:05:41then in quotes whatever the line is
0:05:43assuming you remember it exactly and
0:05:44then do google video shirt search for it
0:05:49now what you'll find if you've ever done
0:05:51that is that you get tons and tons of
0:05:54hits but no matter how obscure the quote
0:05:56is just make up make up anything that
0:05:58you can think of from Simpsons ever and
0:06:00as long as you quote it remotely
0:06:01correctly type Simpsons that phrase hit
0:06:03Search click the video you will see a
0:06:05big scrolling list of screenshots of the
0:06:09episode that it was from and was going
0:06:11on for pages and pages and that would
0:06:14make you think all that the internet is
0:06:15working Google is working I can find
0:06:17anything I want any piece of pop-culture
0:06:18in a moment's notice you know again it's
0:06:20not like I'm looking to pirate The
0:06:22Simpsons is using a small excerpt as
0:06:25part of some larger paper it's it's the
0:06:27the textbook example of fair use but if
0:06:30you look closer at those results are
0:06:32perhaps click on one of them what you'll
0:06:33find is that every single one of them is
0:06:35a link to a site and maybe a reputable
0:06:39site like say YouTube so YouTube is
0:06:41number
0:06:41one hit Simpsons episode I recognize
0:06:43that scene it's the exact same that I
0:06:44wanted because I can see the thumbnail
0:06:45Google I click on the YouTube result and
0:06:47what you get is a fake video like it's a
0:06:50video that has no content other than
0:06:51other than a static image of text and
0:06:53the text has arrows pointing downwards
0:06:56to the description saying click that
0:06:58description underneath this video
0:07:00totally click it guys click that
0:07:01description and in the description is a
0:07:03link to some shady Russian or other
0:07:06foreign site that you know God knows
0:07:11where it is and if you want if you were
0:07:12to click on that you will enter the the
0:07:15rathole of porn scam viagra ads viruses
0:07:21god knows online gambling is yeah you
0:07:24will not find your video or if you do
0:07:26find it who knows what you've done to
0:07:28your computer and so you like alright
0:07:30well that willing to the scan let me go
0:07:31back to the surgery let's try the next
0:07:32one they're all like that dot pol dot
0:07:34are you even tons and tons of things on
0:07:36YouTube it kills me that they're on
0:07:37YouTube can YouTube not tell hey if
0:07:39someone uploads a video that's three
0:07:41minutes long it all it ever shows is
0:07:42some text telling everybody to click the
0:07:43thing below the video which takes you to
0:07:45a scam porn virus site you remove that
0:07:49video and I don't quite know how they do
0:07:51it I'm sure there's some that I probably
0:07:53have a single frame in exactly the
0:07:55center of the video that shows the frame
0:07:58from The Simpsons episode but they don't
0:07:59get taken down on copyright violations
0:08:01because it's not the Simpsons episode
0:08:02even though there's one frame at exactly
0:08:0550 percent mark or whatever whatever
0:08:07YouTube uses for the poster frame right
0:08:08so that's why you get thumbnails of all
0:08:10the episodes and it's just a wasteland
0:08:12of pages upon pages of essentially fake
0:08:14versions of Simpsons videos right now if
0:08:19I really wanted to get this like if if I
0:08:21was determined I would just you know
0:08:23fire up the the bit torrents and find
0:08:25the actual episode and download and
0:08:26extract the piece I want it's not like I
0:08:28can't get this stuff but what kills me
0:08:30about this is that Fox or whoever owns
0:08:33the Simpsons I'm assuming it's Fox they
0:08:35have a brand people want to know about
0:08:37it but when anybody searches for
0:08:39anything related to that brand they get
0:08:42tons of scam results wouldn't it serve
0:08:44Fox better to put the entire archive of
0:08:47The Simpsons up in a way that they are
0:08:50the number one search result and that if
0:08:53they don't if they don't to lose money
0:08:54like DVD sales or Hulu
0:08:55they want to make their money on don't
0:08:56let people watch the whole episode but
0:08:58let people say how I remember this quote
0:09:00from this particular episode find that
0:09:02episode let them scrub through it and
0:09:03let them watch like three seconds before
0:09:04you know stops letting them watch and
0:09:06says you've exceeded your fair use
0:09:08viewing of this or if you want to buy
0:09:09the episode click here you know what I
0:09:11mean like convert that guy into a
0:09:12customer at that point or show ads or do
0:09:14something but make you have a property
0:09:18that you are abandoning and leaving to
0:09:20the scammers and the scammers are all
0:09:22over this there may be things like the
0:09:24Simpsons that are that are worse but
0:09:25this the worst sense is the worsen that
0:09:26I've seen is just 100% scam links and
0:09:29they totally wipe out any possibility of
0:09:31finding the content you want so this is
0:09:34just a sickness on the internet that
0:09:36it's like people who don't understand
0:09:38how the internet works and fear it
0:09:40retreat from it leaving their reputation
0:09:43and their property to be defined by
0:09:45criminal scam artists and other unsavory
0:09:48individuals just depressing and this is
0:09:55that was part of the follow up somehow
0:09:56no it was it was after the follow up but
0:09:59before that was a tie that was this
0:10:01secondary level topic if you want to
0:10:03link it to follow up you could say this
0:10:04well it happened when I was writing my
0:10:06article on the articles about Mac os10
0:10:07based on things I saw wuc and we talked
0:10:09about WC on the last show there you go
0:10:11now they're calling it oh they're
0:10:13calling it OS 10 now more than Mac OS 10
0:10:15yeah I saw that on the posters of WTC
0:10:18but it didn't think too much of it
0:10:19because we've seen before Apple sort of
0:10:23make a feint in this direction to
0:10:24remember when I forget when I was it was
0:10:26a couple years ago when they said the
0:10:30iPhone runs OS 10 and they would say had
0:10:35it in all the slides as OS space and
0:10:38then a capital letter X and the Mac runs
0:10:42Mac OS 10 and for like four days in the
0:10:45media all the Apple press was like well
0:10:47okay so this is this is what Apple says
0:10:49this is our new distinction this Mac OS
0:10:5110 which runs on Macs and there's OS 10
0:10:53which runs on iPhones right but they
0:10:55retreated from that really quickly maybe
0:10:57it was less than a week and eventually
0:10:59the thing that runs on iPhones was named
0:11:02iPhone OS and that name stuck with us
0:11:04until it was ridiculous because they had
0:11:06iPod Touch running it and iPad and
0:11:09everything
0:11:09then they renamed it to iOS because
0:11:11obviously it's not just iPhone OS so
0:11:13when I saw the OS 10 posters I'm like is
0:11:16that just because it fits better
0:11:17typographically are they going to change
0:11:19their mind in this again I didn't really
0:11:20think anything of it but after WWC when
0:11:22they updated their the apple.com website
0:11:24if you go to apple.com slash Mac OS 10
0:11:26it now instead of showing Snow Leopard
0:11:29it now shows Lion even though long it's
0:11:31not out there like here's this upcoming
0:11:32OS for you and all over that site its OS
0:11:3510 everywhere so I think they're
0:11:37sticking to their guns in this case what
0:11:40why are they doing this it doesn't
0:11:42really make that much sense to me I've
0:11:45been trying to think about like what the
0:11:46end game is if you are they going to try
0:11:49to umbrella brand the software the
0:11:52operating system that runs on their
0:11:54mobile devices and on Macs and this is
0:11:57independent of the thing that everyone
0:11:59was are we talking about with like are
0:12:01they going to merge the OS is is it can
0:12:02be one OS or you know that is Mac OS 10
0:12:05going away and there will only be iOS
0:12:07all those technical concerns about what
0:12:09happens to the actual lines of code put
0:12:10those aside and let's just talk about
0:12:11branding because you can brand stuff
0:12:13however that you want they can come up
0:12:14with one name they could call it you
0:12:16know Barney or something and say this is
0:12:19the name for our operating system and it
0:12:20runs on our devices and on Macs and it
0:12:22will be a total lie because the code
0:12:23bases are entirely you know not entirely
0:12:26separate for you don't I mean they're
0:12:27they're entirely different products and
0:12:29they share the core OS but they've
0:12:31always shared the core rest they can
0:12:32just decide one time to brand it in that
0:12:35way um that I was thinking about this
0:12:37and first I was that I got stuck on
0:12:39thinking so what do you call that thing
0:12:40what do you call if they wanted to
0:12:42umbrella brand their operating system to
0:12:44emphasize the fact that unlike some
0:12:46other vendors they just have one
0:12:47operating system like like Microsoft has
0:12:48Windows on the desktop and then they
0:12:50have the Windows Phone which are truly
0:12:51two distinct operating systems probably
0:12:53share much much less than iOS and Mac OS
0:12:5510 do so if Apple wanted to stress that
0:12:57it has the same core OS you know the
0:12:59same underlying layers almost all the
0:13:01way to the top between the two OS is
0:13:02they would come with a single name over
0:13:04that name B OS 10 doesn't make sense
0:13:07especially now that they've chosen to
0:13:08use that for Lion
0:13:09because that is not distinguishing
0:13:12enough they're already used iOS which
0:13:15would be the obvious umbrella name
0:13:16choice because the Apple Apple's naming
0:13:18lately seems to be take the obvious word
0:13:20for the thing you're thinking of and
0:13:21stick I in front of it
0:13:23message iPhone I guess FaceTime breaks
0:13:26that trend but there's a lot of AI
0:13:28obvious word names coming out of Apple
0:13:31lately MacBook is like rady that
0:13:33released that's not and I but iOS is
0:13:37already taken its for the to the mobile
0:13:39only they could say well that's going to
0:13:41be our new umbrella aim and we're going
0:13:42to absorb Mac os10 into that but the
0:13:45more I thought about it the more I
0:13:46thought that if you umbrella brand these
0:13:48things then there'll be an expectation
0:13:51that applications for whatever the name
0:13:55is will run any place that runs whatever
0:13:57the name is and that's easy to make true
0:14:00for on Macs because max can run iOS apps
0:14:02no problem they're doing the simulator
0:14:04all the time Apple could make that
0:14:05official anytime it wants no technical
0:14:06hurdles the code is pretty much all the
0:14:08way done it would work fine but you
0:14:12certainly can't run Mac apps on your
0:14:13iPhone or your iPad or anything like
0:14:16that
0:14:16so I the more I think about it the more
0:14:17I think I'm Brella branding of the OS
0:14:19will never come to pass as long as there
0:14:23are what we think of as Mac applications
0:14:25that are not designed for touch and I
0:14:28don't see that changing anytime soon
0:14:29because certainly lion is not saying hey
0:14:31all line developers are Mac developers
0:14:33make all your apps usable through touch
0:14:34no it's not what line is about at all so
0:14:37I'm thinking no umbrella branding for a
0:14:39while and I really have no idea why they
0:14:41took out the 10 the only conspiracy
0:14:43theory I can come up or took out the Mac
0:14:45the only conspiracy theory I can come up
0:14:46with is the old one this is from way
0:14:48back of any time I will did anything
0:14:49remotely in this direction people would
0:14:51say oh my god they're going to let you
0:14:53run a Mac OS 10 on non-apple hardware
0:14:55and that's why they want to take the Mac
0:14:56out because now it's OS 10 and you can
0:14:58run on Dells and compacts to that old
0:15:01you know again technically possible the
0:15:03whole yellow box thing running it on it
0:15:06was the old one where you're gonna run
0:15:08applications on top of Windows on top of
0:15:11the yellow box and then the change was
0:15:13let's just let people run Mac OS 10 on
0:15:14any hardware they can buy out of the box
0:15:16hackintosh stuff I don't think any of
0:15:18that's happening well John Gruber our
0:15:20friend John Gruber of daring fireball co
0:15:22host of another show we do here called
0:15:24talk show wrote related to what you were
0:15:27saying
0:15:28he says I'm pretty sure the only reason
0:15:29Mac was ever put into the name of the OS
0:15:32was for the ill-considered cloning era
0:15:35prior to the
0:15:36loans it was just called system seven
0:15:37system six they renamed it to Mac OS so
0:15:40there'd be some sort of Mac involved on
0:15:42machines that themselves could not be
0:15:44called Mac's so it's almost like the
0:15:46inverse of what you're saying instead of
0:15:49this being some kind of implication that
0:15:50Apple's going to do that again it's
0:15:52going back to that time period and
0:15:53saying that was the only reason they put
0:15:55the word Mac in there anyway because
0:15:57these essentially what we're essentially
0:15:59PC vendors selling machines that could
0:16:02run the you know previously system seven
0:16:06they could have called it system eight
0:16:07but instead it was Mac OS yeah I buy
0:16:10that although whatever the original
0:16:12motivation was it became a branding tool
0:16:16you know max run Mac OS it was a way of
0:16:20describing the thing that runs on Macs
0:16:22if it was just called system when people
0:16:24talked about it you know do you have
0:16:25system eight system seven system twelve
0:16:27whatever there would be no context and
0:16:29you wouldn't be reinforcing the
0:16:30Macintosh brand that's kind of why I
0:16:33like the Mac books you know they're they
0:16:36chose to put Mac in front of that they
0:16:37ditched power and put Mac in front of it
0:16:39you know the same thing with the iBook
0:16:40they chose to put Mac in there because
0:16:42they wanted to work on the Mac brand and
0:16:45maybe that was that gets back to the
0:16:46conspiracy theory it's like oh that's a
0:16:47piece of hardware you know sir certainly
0:16:49they weren't calling it Mac Book to
0:16:50differentiate it from other books that
0:16:51also run their operating systems because
0:16:53that was not happening that they put the
0:16:56Mac on the hardware but they don't put
0:16:57the Mac on the software does that mean
0:16:58the software can run on something other
0:17:00than max I don't know it's so hard to
0:17:01tell with marketing and branding it's so
0:17:04much of it is just taste and whim so I'm
0:17:07I wouldn't even know what to read into
0:17:09it and I'm just trying not to read
0:17:10anything to it what what bothered me the
0:17:12most is that now like do I have to go
0:17:13back and search and replace in my review
0:17:16Mac os10 with OS 10 it just looks weird
0:17:18to me looks kind of naked and I'm not
0:17:19used to it plus and then I can't do a
0:17:21global search in replace because anytime
0:17:22I refer to Snow Leopard that was called
0:17:24Mac OS 10 so I can't call that OS 10 ten
0:17:27point six absolute Mac OS 10 pin point
0:17:29six wish I could just make up their mind
0:17:31as I'm saying do you remember at what
0:17:34point will not interrupt you do you
0:17:36remember at what point they stopped
0:17:42calling them Macintosh and just really
0:17:45called them Mac's I mean was that from
0:17:47the very beginning I seem to remember
0:17:49always just call him Mac but at what
0:17:52point what point were they not really
0:17:54pushing that as much at what point did
0:17:56they start using it on their product I
0:17:58think the beginning of the end of that
0:18:01was when the iMac was introduced but for
0:18:04a long time it was power Macintosh g3
0:18:06right power Macintosh g4 I believe it
0:18:09was also power Macintosh g5 some were a
0:18:12little bit after that the word Macintosh
0:18:15spelled out the long way that Apple does
0:18:18pretty much disappeared and now it's not
0:18:22on any of their products anymore
0:18:23certainly and it's hard to even find it
0:18:25on their website unless you're looking
0:18:26at an old product so that faded out
0:18:28fairly recently yeah well I'm wondering
0:18:29when what was the last machine maybe
0:18:32somebody can tell us on Twitter what was
0:18:36the bank because I'm milking its
0:18:37chairman today what was the very last
0:18:40Mac that said Macintosh on it now
0:18:43actually on the hardware or on the
0:18:46product materials I can find that out
0:18:48for you in a couple seconds here so
0:18:50because I don't want to I don't in the
0:18:52show not knowing this yeah let's see all
0:18:56models let's look until the Macintosh
0:18:58name disappears all the iPods are all
0:19:01mixed in IMAX IMAX so much for two signs
0:19:08iBooks yeah Wow
0:19:10and there's a sound of somebody else
0:19:12searching is not the best way to fill
0:19:14time and I think all right well I'll
0:19:16look it up and so we do we don't we
0:19:20don't need Twitter responses is what
0:19:22you're saying yeah although the chat
0:19:24room you know that's what the chat room
0:19:25is for they should I can't look at this
0:19:26I can't look at in two seconds I know
0:19:27I'm in it though you're so getting back
0:19:31to what uh what Gruber was saying about
0:19:33the the time of the clones and
0:19:36everything right finally got a chance to
0:19:37listen to that thing that went around
0:19:41which was showing Steve Jobs closing
0:19:44keynote at WWNT 97 yeah did you listen
0:19:47to that yeah watch them so that was
0:19:52great to watch and it's great to be
0:19:55reminded of how different things were
0:19:56back then like people were listening to
0:19:58it because they wanted to hear let's
0:20:00hear how well Steve predicted the future
0:20:02like he said
0:20:03he was gonna do all these great things
0:20:04and people laughed at him to look that
0:20:05he did them and there's a lot of that in
0:20:07there he outlined a strategy and some
0:20:09broad strokes of what Apple should do
0:20:11that sounded ridiculous in the context
0:20:14of him saying it sounded like who's this
0:20:15guy who was this blowhard like yeah sure
0:20:17make that happen and he did it he did it
0:20:19like beyond even his own expectations
0:20:21all right but there are other aspects of
0:20:23it that are so unlike the Steve Jobs an
0:20:25Apple that we know today in particular I
0:20:27was thinking about related to the
0:20:29cloning thing his position on a cloning
0:20:32like you were if you were to ask any
0:20:33modern Apple hater you know I have video
0:20:37Steve Jobs 1997 someone asked about
0:20:39clones what do you think he said I bet
0:20:41he said that you're not allowed to clone
0:20:42at all there'll be no clones and it has
0:20:44to be closed box and you're going to use
0:20:46super special screws you can't even open
0:20:48it up and if anything breaks yet to
0:20:50throw it in the garbage and buy another
0:20:51one that was my PC user impression it
0:20:54was great but if you if you look at what
0:20:57he actually says what he says it is that
0:20:59he thinks the cloners at that point that
0:21:03the clone makers were being given
0:21:04reference hardware designs from Apple he
0:21:06says we shouldn't be giving them
0:21:08reference hardware designs let them
0:21:09build whatever the heck Hardware they
0:21:10want they don't need any help from us we
0:21:12will license them the OS at a price that
0:21:15we decide is fair and they can build any
0:21:16hardware they want you know they don't
0:21:18have to copy our where they can make it
0:21:19better Hardware cheaper hardware
0:21:21whatever you know but some lets him go
0:21:23nuts he was not a single Brett the thing
0:21:25that he said in that thing that was anti
0:21:27cloning if anything he was more sort of
0:21:29laissez faire I've just let those guys
0:21:31do what they want now he was definitely
0:21:32uh down on Apple losing money what his
0:21:36big thrust was we're going to charge you
0:21:38a lot to lies in the Mac OS and in fact
0:21:40if you only make really expensive
0:21:42computers we're going to charge you even
0:21:43more because if you just make really
0:21:45expensive computers as a high margin
0:21:46products and you know we have to give
0:21:49you some motivation to make low margin
0:21:50products you know we're not going to
0:21:51just have all the low margin products
0:21:53and you take all the big high margin
0:21:54product products and we're going to
0:21:55structure our licensing to make that
0:21:57happen
0:21:57so he was definitely looking out for
0:21:58number one but he was a hundred percent
0:22:00on board with the cloning thing and he
0:22:02was also a hundred percent on board with
0:22:03Intel it's like if someone wants to make
0:22:04an Intel machine and you can run
0:22:08Rhapsody on Intel I know it was the
0:22:09wrapper to the arrow too so that's
0:22:11another that's another strange vestige
0:22:15of the past most people don't remember
0:22:16that
0:22:17the plan was to take next step and port
0:22:20it to the Mac pretty much wholesale and
0:22:23continue to distribute the yellow box
0:22:26for Windows and other ways of running
0:22:27your applications on things that weren't
0:22:29Max and Steve Jobs was 100% down with
0:22:32that he was like yep go for that that'll
0:22:33be great didn't happen obviously he made
0:22:37mention in in the actual QA he said you
0:22:41know some developer asked about holes in
0:22:45the product line up that that Steve
0:22:47thought developers could fill and he
0:22:48said well you know Adobe and Microsoft
0:22:50as far as I know haven't signed up to to
0:22:53port their applications to Rhapsody so
0:22:55what are you guys waiting for you know
0:22:56there's no Photoshop on Rhapsody is any
0:22:59office huge openings for you to become
0:23:02the next office or Photoshop which is
0:23:04kind of ridiculous on its face and we
0:23:06all know how that actually turned out
0:23:07the Wow it turned out was that Adobe
0:23:10Microsoft say yeah we're not pouring to
0:23:12that and apple says okay we'll change
0:23:14our OS strategy so you so will get your
0:23:16application so the next year or the year
0:23:18after he's on stage saying look he's a
0:23:19version of Photoshop running on carbon
0:23:21isn't it great so I hope no developers
0:23:23took his advice and decided to work on
0:23:25the next Photoshop killer only to have
0:23:27that entire OS strategy scrapped but but
0:23:29at least you can say that the next OS
0:23:31strategy was the last in the long
0:23:33distinguished line of next-generation
0:23:35Apple operating system strategies and by
0:23:38the way I've been told on Twitter by
0:23:40Dwayne Sibley sabili valve onus is his a
0:23:48Twitter moniker he says a power
0:23:50Macintosh g5 was the last model to have
0:23:52Macintosh in the name as there you go I
0:23:56was close but I had that that might be
0:23:58in there Proctor what was the lab be I
0:23:59don't think does does the does the the
0:24:03power Mac or the Mac Pros did they
0:24:05actually have anything printed on them
0:24:07or the LD where is it print g3 had the
0:24:10g3 had power Macintosh somewhere on it
0:24:12did the g5 mines in a box
0:24:15certainly the Box did I don't think the
0:24:17name was printed on the g5 and here
0:24:20there was a g5 on it maybe it was there
0:24:21g5 know when they went to the aluminum
0:24:24chassis though I think I don't think
0:24:26there was any of that yeah you tell me
0:24:29someone's printed on the aluminum the
0:24:30weight is on the
0:24:31I have the Apple logo on both sides I
0:24:33think that sets the g3 had a G and a
0:24:35three underneath the little plexiglass
0:24:37did you ever have one of those oh this
0:24:40could be a good segue did you ever have
0:24:42one of those Windtunnel max the g5 with
0:24:44the Windtunnel
0:24:45no I yeah 35 the wind tunnels were ready
0:24:48for Round four yeah I had one of those I
0:24:51had the blue and white g3 which was a
0:24:53great love that that's my favorite Mac
0:24:55of all time that lasted me a really long
0:24:57time and then I skipped the entire g4
0:25:00series which was kind of a blessing
0:25:01because that was just a like the first
0:25:03g4 us were okay but then they got weird
0:25:05and evil and jumped right from the g3
0:25:08the g5 which was a big upgrade and well
0:25:11worth it and use that g5 for a long time
0:25:12but I gotta say this Mac Pro that I have
0:25:14now is the best tower Mac that I've
0:25:17owned in terms of just like the things
0:25:20that I care about you know expandability
0:25:23noise so far reliability fingers-crossed
0:25:26ease of getting into and out of it all
0:25:29that good stuff it's so much quieter
0:25:31than my Power Mac g5 was has so fewer
0:25:34many fewer annoying things like that
0:25:37chirping power supply and you know video
0:25:40card dying and excessive heat and stuff
0:25:42like that so I'm really happy with this
0:25:44one so happy in fact that I'm wondering
0:25:46like what's going to make me buy another
0:25:47Mac Pro again we could probably wait
0:25:49another year or two years before I get
0:25:51it on a Mac Pro well there's actually
0:25:53well this could be a segue John into
0:25:55into this discussion unless you have
0:25:57more follow-up or anything well no
0:25:59actually I do have a main topic today if
0:26:01I can no we can't go into the topic that
0:26:03I wanted to do go ahead you know no no
0:26:06hey I usually give you a list of topics
0:26:08than you pick so I don't you know no I
0:26:09want your topic that's what the people
0:26:12want this is your show but what you're
0:26:13talking it won't be long with me I know
0:26:16what how long do you have to do you have
0:26:18a timeline really we got time all right
0:26:22well they actually will keep me in
0:26:23suspense before we say it we'd like to
0:26:25thank FreshBooks
0:26:26for sponsoring today's episode you know
0:26:28I love doing this stuff I don't love
0:26:29invoicing I don't love the accounting
0:26:32side of the business and freshbooks
0:26:33makes this incredibly easy what they are
0:26:36is they're in online invoicing service
0:26:38it just they save you time they get you
0:26:40paid faster and they make you look like
0:26:41a pro it's that simple and getting
0:26:43started is totally free
0:26:45do any any kind of invoice and they've
0:26:47got the workflows down you can do it
0:26:49recurring invoices you can create new
0:26:51clients on the fly while you're making a
0:26:53new invoice all these little things that
0:26:55are hard to do in every other system are
0:26:58just simple to do here and you should
0:27:01really go check it out and here's
0:27:02another cool thing that they're going to
0:27:03do for 5x5 letters for listeners of
0:27:05hypercritical every week they're going
0:27:07to give away a birthday cake now I've
0:27:08heard from people who have received
0:27:10these cakes and they claim that they're
0:27:12amazing cakes and you could win one just
0:27:14by when you go there and you sign up for
0:27:16your free account well it starts free I
0:27:18think at some point that went you got to
0:27:19pay something but it's free for a while
0:27:22when you're signing up there's a place
0:27:25where it says how'd you hear about us
0:27:26you type in there hypercritical and/or I
0:27:29love John siracusa either one of those
0:27:30will work and they will pick somebody
0:27:33every week and send them a birthday cake
0:27:36should go do that at FreshBooks comm ok
0:27:39now what now what's your topic you know
0:27:42the key part of that promo is that it's
0:27:44a birthday cake it's not just a cake
0:27:46yeah it is a birthless decorated as if
0:27:48it was a for a birthday but it doesn't
0:27:50have to be a birthday you don't have to
0:27:51have it but that's the that's the key
0:27:53part of that promotion you just had the
0:27:54cake that's not good you have a birthday
0:27:56cake now you've got something you're
0:27:59right thank you so this is like
0:28:03carryover from WOD Sivas we did a really
0:28:05long show about WWDC but still so many
0:28:09things in my mind and never mind all the
0:28:11stuff that I can't talk about because of
0:28:12NDA this this is about iCloud which I
0:28:17know I talked about a lot of the other
0:28:18thing but that really was the big
0:28:19announcement it's still and everything
0:28:21about iCloud is still like stewing in my
0:28:23mind especially since it's not likely
0:28:24released in a day and everyone could go
0:28:26download it it's still like here's what
0:28:28we're planning on doing and you know
0:28:30there's some sort of beta access and
0:28:31there are some API is but we don't know
0:28:33like in practice what it's like to use
0:28:35iCloud even developers don't because the
0:28:37developer stuff they have for you is not
0:28:38representative what the experience will
0:28:40be like
0:28:40when the product is introduced so I'm
0:28:42still in the mode where I'm thinking
0:28:44about I'm trying to handicap Apple's
0:28:46odds like yours again we've talked we've
0:28:48done past shows about how bad they are
0:28:50there's online service stuff and iCloud
0:28:53they said most of the right things but
0:28:56I'm still dubious about it
0:28:58so one thing I was thinking about is the
0:29:02nuts and bolts of like I also we've got
0:29:04of the show so we talked about how I
0:29:05thought Google's biggest advantage was
0:29:07their data center operations so I was
0:29:08thinking about what do the best online
0:29:11companies do on the server side how do
0:29:15they operate we're in broad strokes and
0:29:16specifically how do they make their
0:29:18online services you know make them work
0:29:21and so the three ones I picked to to
0:29:23talk to talk about our Google Facebook
0:29:26and Amazon and I would say if you had to
0:29:29pick three of the best online service
0:29:32companies those would be right up the
0:29:33top of most people's lists no one's
0:29:34going to argue you can argue about how
0:29:36much you like the companies or their
0:29:37products but if you talk about someone
0:29:38who has built a business online and has
0:29:41been successful at scale that's really
0:29:43what I'm talking about it's a scale
0:29:44because Google scale Facebook scale
0:29:46Amazon scale that's the scale that it
0:29:48seems like Apple wants to work on and
0:29:49especially if since iCloud is free and
0:29:51it's going to be integral part of every
0:29:52device it sells I do you know how many
0:29:54iPhones are out there tab just like a
0:29:56hundred million or something but it's
0:29:58big it's a big number and I would bet
0:30:00the number of MobileMe subscribers is
0:30:03you know 1/100 of the number of people
0:30:06with iOS devices so presumably
0:30:08eventually all iOS devices that are
0:30:11still functioning will be iOS 5 running
0:30:13iCloud because it's free I'm assuming
0:30:15everyone will opt into it because why
0:30:16wouldn't you get all these features
0:30:17unless you're super paranoid about
0:30:19privacy which believe me people are not
0:30:20as evidenced by the popularity of
0:30:23Facebook so iCloud is going to have to
0:30:26scale at you know much higher than
0:30:29anything Apple has ever done with the
0:30:31possible exception of the iTunes Store
0:30:32but and everyone throws the iTunes Store
0:30:34my face when I complained about Apple
0:30:35being bad at online but the iTunes Store
0:30:38is perhaps the simplest possible online
0:30:41service when compared to the things that
0:30:43like you know Amazon Google and Facebook
0:30:44do it's almost entirely reads where
0:30:47you're reading about reading the
0:30:49catalogue downloading stuff that doesn't
0:30:51change that frequently benefits
0:30:54tremendously from caching and
0:30:55distribution and the only thing you
0:30:57write are the transactions when you you
0:30:59know do something that when you purchase
0:31:00something so it's the simplest possible
0:31:02ecommerce site I don't know it's
0:31:04complicated with all the CD ends and how
0:31:06they get this the stuff distributed and
0:31:08they have the client software I'm not
0:31:09saying it's easy but compared to an
0:31:11online service that
0:31:12significant portion of Rights it's much
0:31:15tougher like think about Facebook where
0:31:16most people are just browsing Facebook
0:31:18but it is the expectation that when you
0:31:20post a little comment or something and
0:31:22you and you click the button to submit
0:31:24it when the page loads again you see
0:31:25your comment and not only do you see it
0:31:26but other people see it too wouldn't be
0:31:28acceptable for you to submit the comment
0:31:29and then they bring you back to the page
0:31:31and you don't see your comment and then
0:31:32you reload and you see it but then you
0:31:34reload again and you don't see it but
0:31:35then you reload and you know that's the
0:31:36type of eventual consistency that you
0:31:38can get away with on things like the
0:31:40iTunes Store it's like now if not
0:31:42everyone sees this new album that I
0:31:43added they'll see it in 5-10 minutes
0:31:45they'll be fine with a readwrite service
0:31:47you need to be responsive to changes
0:31:49immediately and there's no margin for
0:31:52now you'll see your comment eventually
0:31:54like once you give them a message and
0:31:56say you can't appear in ten minutes
0:31:57you'll be like what the heck when I
0:31:58submit my comment I want to see it
0:32:00immediately you know the readwrite
0:32:02services are much harder especially with
0:32:03multiple users and concurrency and
0:32:05making updates appear everywhere doing
0:32:07minimal updates to two things instead of
0:32:09updating you know more than you have to
0:32:11so anyway here's how these companies do
0:32:16their server-side stuff I'll start with
0:32:17Google so the first thing that Google
0:32:19has is they do their own hardware which
0:32:22sounds crazy but probably won't in in a
0:32:25few minutes they do that because one of
0:32:28the significant costs is the electricity
0:32:31to power the data centers the power the
0:32:32cooling and everything like that so they
0:32:33can reduce the power consumption of
0:32:35their computers and/or the density of
0:32:36their computers they have to pay less
0:32:38for cooling to pay less for electricity
0:32:40and it makes a big dent in the budget
0:32:41and they just feel like they can design
0:32:44a custom piece of hardware that is
0:32:46cheaper and more efficient than they
0:32:50could get something off the shelf and
0:32:52Google's big thing also with their
0:32:53hardware is not only is a custom
0:32:54hardware but it's not custom fancy
0:32:56hardware it's custom crappy hardware
0:32:58they're all their stuff is built with
0:32:59the expectation that the hardware will
0:33:01fail they use crappy commodity discs
0:33:03off-the-shelf you know pieces for the
0:33:06CPUs it's not like a really fancy you
0:33:08know the Sun boxes they used to be the
0:33:09size of refrigerators and they're across
0:33:11tens of thousands of dollars and they
0:33:12were all purple and to cool lights and
0:33:14um and stuff and there was you know a
0:33:15custom backplane switching Network
0:33:17inside connecting the CPUs and all you
0:33:20know that's not what Google is about
0:33:21they're about cheap simple commodity
0:33:24pieces that they assemble maybe they
0:33:26have
0:33:26wanted to you know maybe have a custom
0:33:27motherboard that they commissioned
0:33:29someone else to make or whatever but
0:33:30it's not it's not because it's fancies
0:33:32because they just want the components
0:33:33they want everything else it and if they
0:33:34don't need is removed there's no 5.1
0:33:36stereo dolby chip on google's right
0:33:38uncool servers but if you buy an
0:33:40off-the-rack dale who knows what's on
0:33:41that motherboard that you're not going
0:33:42to be interested in using right so
0:33:45that's their that's the hardware and
0:33:47then what they run on top of it is
0:33:49basically a suite of almost entirely
0:33:50custom software now they run Linux which
0:33:52is the basis of all their stuff so
0:33:54that's not custom that's that's their
0:33:55commodity operating system but on top of
0:33:57Linux they run their software that
0:33:59creates an infrastructure like Linux is
0:34:01practically the firmware for their stuff
0:34:02so the big one that everyone's heard of
0:34:04probably is MapReduce which is a way of
0:34:07well that MapReduce as a concept is a
0:34:10way of taking a task and splitting it up
0:34:12into pieces that can be done in parallel
0:34:13and MapReduce it within Google is a
0:34:16framework for doing that across many
0:34:18computers so you structure your job as a
0:34:20series of steps that you map step in the
0:34:22reduce step where you take a bunch of
0:34:24data and map it to one thing and then
0:34:26coalesce and so on you can follow the
0:34:27links in the show notes to see exactly
0:34:29what Map Reduce this but the bottom line
0:34:30is it's a way of if you can
0:34:34quote-unquote rephrase your task in
0:34:37terms of MapReduce the MapReduce
0:34:38framework will execute your tasks on a
0:34:40huge amount of data in a short period of
0:34:42time by spreading it over lots of
0:34:43computers and it will handle all the
0:34:44details for you and when an underlying
0:34:48piece of that is GFS good the Google
0:34:50file system it's a file system that they
0:34:52wrote it's a distributed file system
0:34:54where it's tailored for the needs of
0:34:56Google where they work with huge huge
0:34:58files and so like I think the minimum
0:35:00allocation block in GFS is like 64
0:35:03megabytes or something gigantic like
0:35:04that like you can if you want to make a
0:35:05file with the letter A and it would be
0:35:0664 megabytes or you know actually that
0:35:10might just be that chunk size and they
0:35:11have a small thing with it but the point
0:35:12is it's not like a file system on your
0:35:14personal computer it's a distributed
0:35:16file system made for dealing with huge
0:35:17files across many machines there that
0:35:19are spread through other data centers
0:35:21you know and all around the world and
0:35:24that's what they use to get that to get
0:35:26and store their data and then on top of
0:35:28all that they have BigTable which is
0:35:30kind of like you're going to get kind of
0:35:32like how you would build a database on
0:35:36top of those other technologies where
0:35:38it's kind of like a sequel database I
0:35:39don't think it actually
0:35:40sequel but it's a way to have structured
0:35:43data like you instead of just having a
0:35:46bunch of files that have data in them
0:35:48this is structured dating you can ask
0:35:50database type questions like it give me
0:35:51the record for this person and it will
0:35:53have the person's name and email address
0:35:55or whatever that's their database
0:35:58solution and none of those things
0:36:01incidentally are available for sale and
0:36:04none of those things are as far as I
0:36:06know open source at this point the
0:36:08amount of time and money and you know
0:36:11expertise that Google has spent building
0:36:14this infrastructure it's basically the
0:36:15largest and most important expanded
0:36:17technology expenditure the company has
0:36:19ever made in terms of what they got out
0:36:22of it because they run their business on
0:36:23these services and more this probably
0:36:25ones that we haven't even heard of that
0:36:26there are probably ones that I haven't
0:36:27listed and all of them are being revised
0:36:29GFS I think is still coming up on
0:36:31version 2 BigTable was a successor to
0:36:34something else I think and they're
0:36:35always trying to go beyond that so
0:36:37they're not they didn't just make these
0:36:38and then they build their business on
0:36:39and forget about they're constantly
0:36:40being revaluated revised and improved
0:36:42it's kind of a shame they don't share
0:36:44them but on the other hand like I said I
0:36:45think this is a big competitive
0:36:47advantage now Facebook next one another
0:36:51gigantic company with probably more
0:36:54users than any other online service but
0:36:56I think they're up to like I don't wanna
0:36:57know what they're up to are they into
0:36:58the billions yet gosh I don't think it's
0:37:01billions but who knows you know what if
0:37:02we say it's not a bill if it's not
0:37:04billions then and yeah the show will be
0:37:06maybe like five hundred million or
0:37:07something like that but it's it it's big
0:37:09right really ah and so what they do in
0:37:12their data centers is they have custom
0:37:14hardware to and and unlike Google
0:37:17they've decided to create this Open
0:37:19Compute Project which I think we talked
0:37:20about in the past where they want to
0:37:23share their design for their custom
0:37:24hardware in open-source kind of manner
0:37:27hoping to take advantage of the fact
0:37:31that they're not Google and so we all
0:37:32collaborate and work on this open
0:37:34computing platform hardware design thing
0:37:36maybe we can compete with Google's
0:37:38expertise because they kind of got there
0:37:40first and they have the most experience
0:37:41they probably have the best people but
0:37:42we won't have custom hardware to and for
0:37:44the same exact reasons as Google data
0:37:45centers are a big part of their cost
0:37:47they want to be the efficient as
0:37:48possible as small as possible but they
0:37:51also want to use two cheapest possible
0:37:52parts because again they have
0:37:53expectation of the harbor is going to
0:37:55fail so they're not buying super duper
0:37:56fancy computers that are impossible to
0:37:59perturb you can yank CPUs out of them
0:38:01all that running and they don't blink an
0:38:02eye now they're buying cheap commodity
0:38:03hardware and building cheap commodity
0:38:05hardware that just has the features they
0:38:06need and that it uses the minimal amount
0:38:09electricity I think Facebook was one
0:38:11also was looking into using arm CPUs in
0:38:13the day designer instead of Intel simply
0:38:15because they use less power everyone's
0:38:17always making faints in that direction
0:38:18or it could just be to try to get better
0:38:19pricing from Intel but I will say and
0:38:23then on top of that they mostly use PHP
0:38:27to run their site which is sounds the
0:38:30same to most people but that's what it
0:38:32was originally built on and they just
0:38:33scaled up they just kept it they just
0:38:34kept it there yeah well they didn't just
0:38:36keep it as is they what they did is they
0:38:39built a PHP compiler or it takes PHP and
0:38:42transforms into C++ and then compiles it
0:38:44which is a tremendous boost in speed and
0:38:47is sort of the cornerstone of what makes
0:38:49Facebook actually work there's some good
0:38:51presentations on this in the web I
0:38:52should have found something for the show
0:38:53notes I'm not sure I'll be able to again
0:38:54but one of them was talking about how
0:38:56all of Facebook basically ends up being
0:38:59one compiled executable like that's
0:39:02Facebook that like they take all the the
0:39:04reams and reams of PHP code and all that
0:39:06stuff and they hate what they get out of
0:39:07it is an executable that is Facebook and
0:39:09you know it's recompiled and rebuilt
0:39:11like every night or whenever they do
0:39:12release and stuff but it's strange to
0:39:14think of one of the biggest sites if not
0:39:15the biggest website of the internet
0:39:16being a compiled c++ executable so
0:39:20usually you're saying that when people
0:39:21want to go and create a you know a
0:39:23Facebook page there one of their
0:39:24designers engineers whoever sitting
0:39:26inside Facebook they want to go and sit
0:39:28down and say oh I'm adding a new feature
0:39:29they're writing it in PHP and then it
0:39:32compiles down to c plus plus or to c or
0:39:35whatever from that yeah why not just why
0:39:39not just hire seed of programmers
0:39:41because that would just take too long to
0:39:43write I mean the same reason you want to
0:39:45write a high level language they're
0:39:46writing in PHP they don't want to worry
0:39:47about pointers and allocations and you
0:39:49know unicode strings and stuff like that
0:39:52THP handles that for them marco should
0:39:54be thrilled to hear this
0:39:56you know that it's not a secret if you
0:39:58google for this will be in the show
0:39:59notes but hip hop for PHP it's a source
0:40:02code transformer for PHP but it's they
0:40:04did they open source that is that out
0:40:06there I think
0:40:07it is open source yeah it is it's under
0:40:10the PHP license now how useful this is
0:40:13to anyone else but like this is this is
0:40:15was done years ago and it's kind of what
0:40:16allows them to scale up like that so so
0:40:18they are taking it and you know
0:40:20something that period that existed
0:40:21before but they've you know moved beyond
0:40:24with it they've gone beyond just the
0:40:25user PHP now they're doing something
0:40:26very different with it they also have
0:40:28something called thrift which is a sort
0:40:31of framework for making a remote
0:40:33procedural crawl interfaces basically
0:40:36sending messages from one machine to
0:40:37another to do something and it's
0:40:39distributed
0:40:40type of thing again because of they're
0:40:42in data center spread all over the place
0:40:44and on top of thrift they built
0:40:45something called scribe which we
0:40:47actually use at work which is really
0:40:48neat it's a distributed logging service
0:40:50so that you can have all the machines
0:40:53log through scribe and the results of
0:40:57that logging are collected and routed
0:40:59according to you know series of traffic
0:41:01Direction rules eventually landing in a
0:41:03few repositories and it's much better
0:41:06than having each individual machine log
0:41:07locally because then you're worried
0:41:09about running out disk space for logs
0:41:10and get us Emily rotating the logs or
0:41:11you have to have something going from
0:41:12each machine and collecting logs and
0:41:14then truncating them and it's just a
0:41:16pain but if you have network logging
0:41:18then what happens with it is a network
0:41:20glitch or you know you get disconnected
0:41:22or the network partitions at some point
0:41:24you lose all those logging things
0:41:25subscribe is neat because it will do it
0:41:27will do store-and-forward if it can't
0:41:28talk to the network service that it
0:41:29wants to log to it will start logging
0:41:31locally and when the network thing comes
0:41:33back up it will take what it's pulled
0:41:34locally and shove it back out very neat
0:41:37and then you can imagine why that would
0:41:38be useful for a company like Facebook
0:41:40with tons of servers all over the place
0:41:41and that's released as open source as
0:41:43well so custom hardware and a bunch of
0:41:46custom infrastructure and now finally
0:41:48Amazon I tried to Google this and I
0:41:51couldn't tell as far as I can tell
0:41:52Amazon may be using stock hardware or if
0:41:55they're using custom hardware they
0:41:56aren't talking about it but Amazon has
0:42:00its own set of web services this s3 for
0:42:03storage which is a generic content
0:42:05addressable storage system
0:42:08you know massively distributed a lots of
0:42:10other services are built in history
0:42:11because they sell it this is this is
0:42:13Amazon's thing that Amazon said look we
0:42:15have to build these services to have the
0:42:16world's biggest e-commerce site to
0:42:19recoup the cost of building the services
0:42:20why don't we
0:42:21resell them because you know we think
0:42:22they're great I think that was a great
0:42:23plan because when you make something for
0:42:25sale as a product you will make it
0:42:28better than if it's internal only anyone
0:42:30who's ever worked at a company writing
0:42:31software knows that the tool is written
0:42:34for only for internal use by the company
0:42:36are the worst tools ever well you know
0:42:38the things you have to sell the
0:42:39customers you can't get away with the
0:42:40crap you can get away with with an
0:42:41internal customer because of a guy down
0:42:42you know on the other row complains
0:42:44about something you just go over there
0:42:45and say oh here's a workaround for you
0:42:47or just be quiet I'll get to it when I
0:42:48can but the customer complains you know
0:42:50you change your software so they made
0:42:52all their internal tools available or
0:42:55most of the internal tools available as
0:42:57external products and I'm sure that made
0:42:58those products way way better than they
0:43:00would have possibly been so Amazon uses
0:43:03s3 internally but s3 is also a service
0:43:05that they sell to you and they make
0:43:06money out and I'm sure like for example
0:43:07Dropbox is based on s3 drop buck doesn't
0:43:09do its own storage it uses s3 for
0:43:11storage and then Amazon also has ec2
0:43:14which is their Amazon Elastic Compute
0:43:16cloud where it's sort of like dynamic
0:43:19provisioning of hardware based on your
0:43:20needs so you you can design sort of a VM
0:43:23or you know a machine image and said
0:43:26this is this I need one of these
0:43:27machines to run my products and as your
0:43:29traffic increases for example you can
0:43:31expand out to have okay now you have a
0:43:33bunch more servers and when your traffic
0:43:34decreases we will take those servers
0:43:35away and use the hardware for somebody
0:43:36else
0:43:37that's what's elastic about it it's
0:43:38growing and shrinking I guess here you
0:43:40know so that let's Amazon make effective
0:43:42use of its hardware and it's the
0:43:43customer not pay for hardware they're
0:43:45not using in theory and I thought I read
0:43:49it again could not find this on Google I
0:43:51thought I read that very recently
0:43:53amazon.com said that it had just
0:43:56decommissioned the last non ec2 server
0:43:58running the actual amazon.com website in
0:44:01other words amazon.com I know before ec2
0:44:03existed it was running on these custom
0:44:05servers and stuff and they made ec2 when
0:44:07they've been migrating Amazon icon bit
0:44:09by bit to ease too and supposedly
0:44:10they're done with that now now
0:44:12amazon.com the actual flagship product
0:44:14is running on ec2 Amazon's web service
0:44:17you know computing things they sell so
0:44:20they've done different they've all these
0:44:22threes companies taking different paths
0:44:23but Amazon has built its infrastructure
0:44:26and also decided to sell it Google has
0:44:28built its infrastructure and jealously
0:44:29guards it and Facebook is kind of in the
0:44:31middle where they took stuff that other
0:44:32people built to sort of you know
0:44:33bend it to their own
0:44:35use but they've also built some stuff
0:44:36internally and released it as open
0:44:37source and two of them are confirmed to
0:44:40be using completely custom hardware and
0:44:42Amazon we don't know now this little
0:44:45tour of online services that that are
0:44:48successful at scale is meant to be in
0:44:51contrast to what we know of the iCloud
0:44:53strategy and the iCloud data centers and
0:44:55what we know about the alcohol dynastars
0:44:56is very little you know about the
0:44:57building in North Carolina which is
0:44:59fancy and wonderful and we know about
0:45:01their tax breaks and whatever else
0:45:02people wanted to report on about I think
0:45:03they showed just one picture of it
0:45:05during the keynote yeah they should all
0:45:07right so in the keynote and other times
0:45:08I think even before that they showed PR
0:45:11photos obviously professionally taken by
0:45:13apples photography people from inside
0:45:16the data center saying look at this this
0:45:19is miss fancy in future e this is what's
0:45:20inside our datacenter isn't it cool
0:45:21right here's here's a picture of a whole
0:45:23bunch of rack so you can't see what's in
0:45:25them or any-any
0:45:26right well cool in in the information
0:45:29vacuum created by Apple absolutely never
0:45:31talking about what they use in their
0:45:32data centers unlike all the other
0:45:34companies that I listed who have you
0:45:35know seminars about what the app my
0:45:37business even Google will talk about it
0:45:39in vague terms and you know they just
0:45:41show these pictures so that's all people
0:45:43have to go on and the Apple vans quickly
0:45:45latched onto that and said hey looking
0:45:46at these pictures can anyone tell me
0:45:48what's in all those racks and so a bunch
0:45:50of people gave it a shot this one guy
0:45:51Steven Foskett did the best job that I
0:45:53found he he obviously knows his
0:45:55computers obviously if you work with
0:45:56these things as part of your job you
0:45:58could probably identify the products
0:45:59just by what the cases look like because
0:46:01they have distinctive looks they have
0:46:02you know plastic bezels on the front of
0:46:04them and and they're different colors
0:46:06and different positions of lights and
0:46:07stuff so well he thinks he sees in there
0:46:10as he sees I'm going to read these names
0:46:12I don't know what half of these things
0:46:13are I know the companies but I don't
0:46:15know the pic of the products but you can
0:46:18follow the link in the show notes and
0:46:19then follow the links from his read up
0:46:21his right up to the product pages for
0:46:23these products to see what they are
0:46:24so he says Teradata extreme data
0:46:26appliance I'm assuming as a storage
0:46:28array a bunch of HP ProLiant servers
0:46:31several NetApp devices which I am
0:46:34familiar with ISIL ISIL on yeah ISIL on
0:46:38storage which was a storage company
0:46:40purchased by EMC earlier this year and a
0:46:43bunch of actually a bunch of filler
0:46:44panels which are filled to fill the gaps
0:46:46and improve airflow I think in the Iraq
0:46:49someone in this cat room is complaining
0:46:51about how I pronounce the word be easiiy
0:46:53L writes press the correct pronunciation
0:46:55bezel I'm hazel
0:46:57Bozell bezel bezel all right not like
0:47:00gazelle bezel but I don't I don't
0:47:03correct you and people know what you're
0:47:05talking about who cares
0:47:06correct me because I can't stand when
0:47:07people say the first wrong way so yeah
0:47:09it's best the word I've never had to say
0:47:11before do you believe it not only I've
0:47:13seen it in descriptions of computers so
0:47:17running right the key point about this
0:47:18hardware that's been identified is that
0:47:20this person could identify it because
0:47:21those are all things that you can buy if
0:47:23you have money and you go to net up they
0:47:25will show you one of those NetApp things
0:47:26if you have money you go to Teradata
0:47:28that will sell you that refrigerator
0:47:29you're looking saying for your data
0:47:31center same thing with all the HP rack
0:47:34servers and the Isilon storage these are
0:47:37all off the sell off-the-shelf products
0:47:40that you can buy so right away
0:47:42Apple is in conflict with everybody but
0:47:48the possible examples on Amazon and that
0:47:49they're not doing custom hardware all
0:47:51right now everything else after this is
0:47:54hearsay you this might be hearsay to pcs
0:47:56just looking at a picture and guessing
0:47:57but probably no those are those are
0:47:59pictures taken of not even the data
0:48:01center that Apple use in their stock
0:48:02photos we have no idea where those came
0:48:04from but the thing that I hear about
0:48:07what Apple is running on this hardware
0:48:09is a bunch of off-the-shelf software so
0:48:14for example I've heard from several
0:48:16different places that Apple is running
0:48:17Oracle which is the the bigwig in the
0:48:20old school database world but is
0:48:21definitely not what the cool kids use
0:48:24these days because there's the no sequel
0:48:26databases and stuff like that or you
0:48:27know things like BigTable the Google
0:48:29built themselves if Amazon is running
0:48:31Oracle maybe they are because it does
0:48:33seem like it's kind of suited to
0:48:34e-commerce sites but actually I didn't
0:48:36Amazon do Cassandra or something like
0:48:37that they have one of those in all SQL
0:48:38databases don't they I dunno dynamo
0:48:42dynamo Amazon did but any right we're
0:48:44not quite sure of there but the big one
0:48:47that blew me away and the reason this
0:48:48topic came up is that somebody was
0:48:51playing with the iCloud betas or maybe
0:48:54they were yeah must be maybe they're
0:48:55playing with iTunes beta they're playing
0:48:56with some some iCloud stuff and looking
0:48:59at the network packets going back and
0:49:00forth
0:49:01linked to this national insisted
0:49:02infinite Apple net and what they saw do
0:49:05you know the story that I'm talking
0:49:06about though I don't because you would
0:49:08have brought it up because it's it's a
0:49:10it's a kicker so what they saw going
0:49:12over the wire indicated to them and it
0:49:15seems pretty conclusive for me from
0:49:17looking at it that Apple is using a
0:49:19Microsoft Azure az ure if I'm not
0:49:22pronouncing that right Asher Asher
0:49:25lynchin yeah ed do you know what that is
0:49:28don't rest it's a Microsoft product but
0:49:32it's Microsoft's like it's Microsoft's
0:49:35equivalent of I guess Google App Engine
0:49:38Google App Engine is a service where you
0:49:40write an application designed in a
0:49:43particular way and Google runs it for
0:49:45you on top of their distributed
0:49:47infrastructure well if you were to write
0:49:49a Microsoft Azure application you write
0:49:52it in a particular way and it will run
0:49:53on Microsoft's data centers across their
0:49:57distributed sort of architecture right
0:49:59now the two things that blow me away
0:50:01about this is that a Apple is using a
0:50:04Microsoft product in a service which is
0:50:05pretty unheard of because all the other
0:50:07guys I listed are all running Linux for
0:50:08the most part and UNIX has been the king
0:50:10of the you know the only person who was
0:50:12bucking the UNIX trend for decades has
0:50:14been Microsoft with their thing like
0:50:15Windows NT and all that stuff you know
0:50:16and the serious server people were all
0:50:19oh we would never run Windows in the
0:50:21datacenter that's crazy talk you know I
0:50:23use Windows NT once when it was version
0:50:253.1 and the video card driver crashed my
0:50:27machine I'm never using that again right
0:50:28so I'm sure I'm sure that Microsoft
0:50:33server technology has vastly improved
0:50:35since then but it does have the
0:50:36reputation of not being like top caliber
0:50:40mostly because all the big guys don't
0:50:42use it and now they're usually they're
0:50:44obvious reasons for big guys not using
0:50:45it are competing with Microsoft like
0:50:47Google's sure as heck not going to use
0:50:48Microsoft software in its days and as if
0:50:50we could help it in fact if Google
0:50:51doesn't want to use it on the desktop if
0:50:52it can help it
0:50:54but you know everyone else Amazon
0:50:56Facebook they are not Windows Server
0:50:59shops Windows Server stuff is more
0:51:02expensive than Linux obviously Linux is
0:51:05free these companies are in conflict
0:51:07with Microsoft in several different ways
0:51:09and in general the Microsoft doesn't
0:51:11have a good stuff doesn't have a good
0:51:12rep so here's Apple which was the sworn
0:51:14enemy of Microsoft's
0:51:15decades ago choosing to use Microsoft's
0:51:19data center infrastructure in its
0:51:22flagship product now all this off the
0:51:28shelves hardware and off-the-shelf
0:51:30software makes me think that this
0:51:32deployment if it scales to the level
0:51:34that Apple hopes that it will scale like
0:51:37if I cloud is as big as it as it seems
0:51:39to be and as it could be and is Apple
0:51:41hopes it will be this seems to me that
0:51:44it will be the largest ever deployment
0:51:46of off-the-shelf hardware and software
0:51:49our products working together this will
0:51:51be like a litmus test for all these
0:51:54product like Oracle will say we we can
0:51:56run the biggest data centers in the
0:51:57world they're gonna say well why doesn't
0:51:58Google you you to run their search
0:52:01engine room they have custom stuff well
0:52:02they could run Google and Oracle right
0:52:04you know same thing with EMC and I salon
0:52:06you know we can do scalable storage up
0:52:08to petabytes and we have no problem and
0:52:09no scaling things at all
0:52:10and Microsoft Azure we are the data
0:52:13center infrastructure for any of your
0:52:15applications will be distributed evenly
0:52:17will scale beautifully you'll love it I
0:52:19guarantee you none of those guys have
0:52:21been put into a situation where they're
0:52:23expected to have 100 200 300 million
0:52:26users because there are very very few
0:52:28services that have that kind of level of
0:52:29usage there's Google has Amazon this
0:52:31Facebook and maybe one or two others
0:52:32that I'm forgetting and those guys don't
0:52:34use that off-the-shelf software so here
0:52:36is Apple completely bucking the trend of
0:52:38all other successful online services and
0:52:40choosing for reasons that are mysterious
0:52:43to me to use it seems based on what
0:52:46we're able to intuit from this
0:52:47off-the-shelf harbor off-the-shelf
0:52:50software as their underlying
0:52:51infrastructure now on one respect you
0:52:54can say well they're doing that because
0:52:56they realize this is not the this is the
0:53:00I think I've said this plight raised
0:53:01before but I love it it's their
0:53:03expertise lies elsewhere as a polite way
0:53:05of saying they suck at this they don't
0:53:07they don't have the people or the talent
0:53:10or the time to create an infrastructure
0:53:12to rival the infrastructure that amazon
0:53:15has created in its entire history that
0:53:16Google is created in the Steyr history
0:53:18even the the ability to do what Facebook
0:53:21is done and start from humble beginnings
0:53:22and just like tack stuff on and build up
0:53:24something that can run your incredibly
0:53:26big complicated service on top of it
0:53:28just your sheer force of
0:53:29we'll and I'm sure lots of money uh
0:53:31maybe they didn't have time for that
0:53:33because mold me you know blew up fairly
0:53:36recently or had it's bad had it's bad
0:53:39spell fairly recently so they're not
0:53:40time to do that so maybe this was their
0:53:42only choice can't build themselves you
0:53:44can't build it your Apple you got a
0:53:46bazillion dollars can't build let's buy
0:53:48ah but my question is like who's the guy
0:53:52who is responsible for making iCloud
0:53:55work and he has to do it by assembling
0:53:59hardware and software from other vendors
0:54:01and if you ever work with other vendors
0:54:02you know that no matter what their sales
0:54:04people say you care much more about your
0:54:07success than they do especially once
0:54:09they get your money you know and and
0:54:11your support contracts signed it's a
0:54:14struggle it's a struggle with one vendor
0:54:15and it I can imagine if you were taking
0:54:18several vendors products and stretching
0:54:20them beyond the limits that they've ever
0:54:21been stretched before trying to get them
0:54:24all to work in concert if you have some
0:54:25sort of problem you can't figure out
0:54:27which vendor to call there's no one you
0:54:28can call who's going to figure out your
0:54:29problem for you you just have to go
0:54:31round-robin around them as they blame
0:54:33each other for whatever your problem
0:54:34just was so I'm I'm happy to be proven
0:54:38wrong by this I would like this stuff to
0:54:40all work beautifully I would like Apple
0:54:42to have the most talented data center
0:54:44engineer it's working to put this
0:54:45together I would like all these vendors
0:54:46claims about the supposed scalability
0:54:48reliability of their products to be 100%
0:54:50true at this point I'm just not just not
0:54:55seeing it I'm I'm not confident so we'll
0:54:59see we'll see when this launches we'll
0:55:01see how it performs especially the
0:55:03beginning maybe their traffic won't be
0:55:05that bad maybe they'll do what Facebook
0:55:07did for example start with off-the-shelf
0:55:08things some dude writing something in
0:55:10PHP and just apply knowledge and money
0:55:13to it from that point to modify it until
0:55:16it works
0:55:16nah Apple doesn't like to talk about the
0:55:20server-side stuff at all they don't like
0:55:22to talk about any other met internal
0:55:23magic like we do stuff behind the scenes
0:55:25that you don't want to know about and we
0:55:27present you with the finished product
0:55:29which is beautiful and you give us money
0:55:30for but they do know that that's true
0:55:33with all their stuff they don't you know
0:55:34would for the longest time it was I just
0:55:38think it's a natural evolution for them
0:55:41to want
0:55:42keep this stuff you know don't don't
0:55:45worry about it we're taking care of it
0:55:47they don't tell you how they do their
0:55:48industrial design how they design
0:55:49applications they don't tell you
0:55:50anything so it makes sense yes that they
0:55:52wouldn't tell you about the data centers
0:55:53but again it is at odds with all the
0:55:56other people who do data center stuff
0:55:58even Google who completely jealously
0:56:00hoards the details of how to do it like
0:56:02you can't by going to these Google
0:56:03seminars and reading their white papers
0:56:05you cannot do what Google did you can
0:56:06know what they did and try to reproduce
0:56:09it but they don't give you you know like
0:56:11here's the blueprint if you want to make
0:56:12a data center just like Google's do
0:56:13exactly this that and the other thing ah
0:56:15but you know why so why is there the
0:56:17expectation then then Apple would do
0:56:21that when clearly they don't have to
0:56:23it's not expectations well one of these
0:56:26things is not like the other Apple wants
0:56:28to play with these big boys but is doing
0:56:29everything differently now that's not to
0:56:31say they're going to fail because you
0:56:32could say that almost about anything
0:56:33like when Apple makes their handheld
0:56:34devices everybody else was doing one
0:56:36thing and Apple did something else with
0:56:37iOS and the iPhone right and everybody
0:56:39else was doing one thing and Apple did
0:56:41something different with the iPod fewer
0:56:43features you know no hardware keyboard
0:56:46closed App Store not licensing the
0:56:49operating system not open sourcing it
0:56:52they've been on the contrary side of
0:56:55several industry trends many many times
0:56:58the difference I think in this case
0:57:00maybe is that they're not at odds with
0:57:03other things that are failures or are
0:57:06unproven you know like the Apple was at
0:57:08odds with all the smart phones but
0:57:11before Apple came along let's be honest
0:57:12all their smart phones sucked nobody how
0:57:15many people had smart phones they were
0:57:16just geeks who are gluttons for
0:57:17punishment and those things had horrible
0:57:19interfaces and even the people who owned
0:57:20them could not be convinced that they
0:57:22loved these things you know so it's not
0:57:24like Apple was coming into a market
0:57:27where people love their smartphones they
0:57:28couldn't they couldn't get their fingers
0:57:30off and they were downloading apps left
0:57:31and right and they were just loving it
0:57:32you an Apple came along completely
0:57:33contrary to them and stop them no they
0:57:35came into a market where nobody had
0:57:36figured out how to make a decent smart
0:57:38phone nobody was using apps on their
0:57:39phone except for like a Java bejeweled
0:57:41app and you know the SMS app maybe ain't
0:57:43no right and they came in and said we
0:57:46have a better way to do this now here
0:57:47apples coming into a scenario where
0:57:49several very large very successful
0:57:51companies have more or less figured out
0:57:53what it takes to build successful online
0:57:55services
0:57:56services that are way more successful
0:57:57than anything online Apple has ever done
0:57:59and this is not a young market in terms
0:58:02of who the leaders are these companies
0:58:04are the second or third generation of
0:58:07kings of the internet this is where
0:58:09Apple's coming in and doing things
0:58:11differently and and the other difference
0:58:13is they're doing things differently in
0:58:15sort of a secret way like when they
0:58:16introduce a product that is very
0:58:18different than establishment it's clear
0:58:20that to everybody that Apple is doing
0:58:23something different it's you know it's
0:58:24like whoa here's here's a product that's
0:58:26very different from everybody else and
0:58:27like it's a differentiator right but
0:58:30when they're doing the data scent
0:58:32they're not talking about how their data
0:58:33centers are different and the only
0:58:34reason we're discovering this is people
0:58:35are you know digging around in there and
0:58:37trying to see how they are different
0:58:38it's it's behind-the-scenes different
0:58:40it's not different in a way that helps
0:58:42them in terms of marketing and or
0:58:43differentiation I don't know if that
0:58:47makes the difference or not but this
0:58:48this intrigues me this battle of how you
0:58:51build data centers because the ability
0:58:53to build that skill building data
0:58:55centers is clearly a skill of the future
0:58:58if you want to describe it in the say
0:59:00anything way no one's gonna get that
0:59:02reference huh kickboxing sport of the
0:59:04future anybody I've seen about mine yeah
0:59:07I have alright john cusack yeah so data
0:59:11centers skill the future because it's
0:59:14hard to imagine the most successful
0:59:16company in the world in 20 85 not having
0:59:21a gigantic data center full of something
0:59:22you know what I mean so this will
0:59:26definitely be a skill that if Apple
0:59:29wants to be around for my great
0:59:31grandchildren and be significant and
0:59:32important which I'm sure if you ask
0:59:34Steve Jobs he wants them to they gotta
0:59:36figure this out maybe they have figured
0:59:39out maybe they're going to get a leg up
0:59:42on everybody else I don't know
0:59:43it's the final thing I wanna say about
0:59:45this is that it is out of character for
0:59:47Apple to rely so much on other vendors
0:59:49don't you think that they still want to
0:59:52own every single thing that they do they
0:59:53want they want to have contracts locked
0:59:55up for their suppliers they want to be
0:59:56able to have multiple sources for
0:59:57everything they want to divide design
0:59:57everything they want to divide design
1:00:00and their own system-on-a-chip they want
1:00:02to design all their own software and
1:00:04have control of just everything along
1:00:06the pipeline do not want to rely on any
1:00:07other parties especially competitors but
1:00:09here they are filling their data science
1:00:11with stuff many of which are made by
1:00:13competitors HP is making you know webOS
1:00:15and the touchpad clearly a competitor
1:00:17Oracle I guess not really a competitor
1:00:19the storage one the storage people are
1:00:21probably not competitors but Microsoft I
1:00:23would say so you have to say they're
1:00:24still a competitor and that's like the
1:00:26backbone of their operating system
1:00:27whatever what if it's just something as
1:00:29simple as saying John that the right
1:00:31tool for the right job and it just so
1:00:33happens that this is for whatever
1:00:35Apple's thinking is that this tool made
1:00:38by sure one of our competitors is this
1:00:40is the right tool for this job until we
1:00:42have our own solution or until there's a
1:00:43better tool we're going to use this
1:00:45because this does what we need and it's
1:00:47the best tool it could it be that simple
1:00:50the Apple mo on stuff like hardware is
1:00:53not to say let me look at the market and
1:00:55find the best system on the chip for
1:00:57smartphones there mo is to say we looked
1:01:00at all of the system on chips that are
1:01:02available and none of them is exactly
1:01:04tailored to our needs they all have some
1:01:06subsystem that we're not interested in
1:01:07or they take too much power or they're
1:01:09too slow so we're going to Commission
1:01:12the design of our own system on a chip
1:01:13does exactly what we needed to do like
1:01:16that's that's been their the way they
1:01:19operate with almost anything they have
1:01:21to do externally is to not accept what
1:01:23is being offered to them but to ask for
1:01:25more take take the CPU in the MacBook
1:01:27Air they didn't go to Intel and said
1:01:28what's the best chip you've got that we
1:01:29can fit in this awesome skinny little
1:01:31notebook they went to in town said we've
1:01:33got this awesome skinny little notebook
1:01:34and nothing you're offering us fits in
1:01:36there can you make us a new chip only
1:01:38for us that has the requirements that we
1:01:41need of it to fit inside this little
1:01:42thing and Intel did it that's how they
1:01:45work so in this case I mean maybe they
1:01:48do that with these vendors I don't know
1:01:49maybe they went to the vendors and said
1:01:50nothing you have satisfies our needs at
1:01:52will you build us this custom thing
1:01:53because we'll buy a bazillion of them
1:01:55and fill our data center in North
1:01:57Carolina with them right mm-hmm I don't
1:02:01know again without the details we can't
1:02:03know how that's working but it it just
1:02:04seems out of character now I guess one
1:02:08part of it doesn't make sense is Apple
1:02:09pulling out of that market like stopping
1:02:11the Xserve line and everything that
1:02:13fits with this because apple it's Apple
1:02:15saying look we're not going to do data
1:02:17center stuffs because it's embarrassing
1:02:19for us to make a server but then not be
1:02:20able to use it in our own stuff because
1:02:22it's not good enough or cheap enough or
1:02:23whatever so it's clear that this is not
1:02:25our Forte let's stop making server
1:02:27hardware like this let's not making rack
1:02:28mount server hardware we're not we're
1:02:29just not in that business and then when
1:02:32they go to vendors they can say say like
1:02:33we stopped our server line we're totally
1:02:34not competing with you guys but now we
1:02:36mean to buy your 1u servers and your
1:02:38storage and stuff like that even though
1:02:40our professional people love their extra
1:02:41raids and they love doing all that stuff
1:02:43and it was so easy to manage we just got
1:02:45to get out of that business so all our
1:02:46customers will now be buying your stuff
1:02:48or something so we're buddies right
1:02:50let's buy some of your server hardware
1:02:51even though these companies do compete
1:02:53with them HP is obviously competing them
1:02:54with the touchpad and webOS phones and
1:02:56stuff like that the this server hardware
1:02:59people don't view Apple as a competitor
1:03:01because they're not and in big companies
1:03:03segments of the company especially big
1:03:06companies that are not Apple segments of
1:03:07the company operate as somewhat
1:03:09independent entities where the guy who's
1:03:12in charge of server is rubbing his hands
1:03:14to this contract to fill this data
1:03:15center with hardware and he doesn't care
1:03:17whether or not it's in the strategic
1:03:18best interest of HP versus a company
1:03:20like Apple where if you're talking to
1:03:22some even like a VP of some department
1:03:24and trying to do a deal with him he sure
1:03:26as hell not doing anything that's not in
1:03:27the best interest of Apple even if it's
1:03:29good for his department because all that
1:03:31stuff's got to go through the chain of
1:03:33command and it's never going to get
1:03:34approved if it doesn't if it's not in
1:03:35any strategic interest of the company
1:03:37Apple is very good about operating a
1:03:40being of one mind about the company
1:03:43versus other companies which have little
1:03:46kingdoms in them that can operate more
1:03:48independently it seems so that's all
1:03:54I've got on my that was my main topic
1:03:56for the day what was a good topic way
1:03:58better than the one I was thinking of we
1:04:01still have time for mine because I think
1:04:02it's a relatively short one all right
1:04:04let's go for it well we also just want
1:04:06to say thanks to felt-tip comm makers of
1:04:10sound studio for this is Jon Syracuse's
1:04:12go-to app when it comes to recording
1:04:15editing and producing audio this is what
1:04:17he uses it's what he's always used and
1:04:19same for me my go-to app and to Mac OS
1:04:2310 I purchased an OS 10
1:04:25and for recording edit editing and
1:04:28creating digital audio on your computer
1:04:30it doesn't matter whether it's a podcast
1:04:31spoken word or music and from this
1:04:34high-quality master you can save in all
1:04:36of the major formats WAV AAC mp3 and
1:04:39John Syracuse's very favorite format of
1:04:42all time OGG Vorbis and that you can get
1:04:45sound studio for on the Mac App Store
1:04:47just search for sound studio or go to
1:04:50felt-tip comm /ss and seriously people
1:04:53always ask me Dan what app do you use to
1:04:55record what I want to record something
1:04:56which ladies use this this is what you
1:04:59should use so thanks to felt-tip comm
1:05:01for making this show possible
1:05:03OGG Vorbis you know speaking of audio
1:05:06formats that ever tell you my my one and
1:05:08only communicating with you Steve Jobs
1:05:11story yeah never heard that maybe this
1:05:13can be our second thought this is great
1:05:14you've been holding out on me it's a
1:05:17short one no it's not you know so
1:05:18everyone everyone email Steve Jobs at
1:05:20some point I think
1:05:21have you ever emailed him no I would
1:05:23never do something like that
1:05:24you've never emailed nah do of course
1:05:26not know why you know why you didn't
1:05:27email him because when you were young
1:05:28enough to eat to think that you should
1:05:30email Steve Jobs you were PC weenie not
1:05:32not not true at all totally true you're
1:05:34building your own PC easier yeah but I
1:05:36might become the computer I used was a
1:05:39Mac what I did for a living was P sound
1:05:42you half PC me alright but at any rate I
1:05:46was young and foolish and and Steve was
1:05:49back at Apple and I sent him a couple of
1:05:52emails of the course of my life I even
1:05:55even when I was younger I knew enough
1:05:56like not to write him a dissertation I
1:05:59would keep my emails like the equivalent
1:06:02of being a bartender at a college bar
1:06:04okay and and and all you do is pour
1:06:07Coors Light for people when you get home
1:06:09does that mean you should drink Coors
1:06:10Light now you're still suckin on huh I
1:06:13just wanna be clear about it don't be
1:06:14offended yeah no I understand the
1:06:16analogy under saying it's as you say if
1:06:18you want if you want to insult me for
1:06:20being a geek dance only than the right
1:06:21way alright well you know that's it's
1:06:23guilt by association I I'll live I can
1:06:25live with then alright so anyway I would
1:06:29always try to keep them short because
1:06:30this guy's if you want your email to
1:06:31have any impact you just have to figure
1:06:33out what it is that you want to say and
1:06:34you know like when you see those emails
1:06:35that have like an executive summary at
1:06:36the top that's got to be the whole email
1:06:38I had the whole email just one one just
1:06:41the executive summaries he's the
1:06:42executive in you're summarizing forum
1:06:44this was before like this is 1997-98
1:06:46when he just came back so maybe actually
1:06:48write Edina so I would send him stuff
1:06:49all the time
1:06:50I'm at one point I sent him a mail like
1:06:53I think it iTunes music store I'd just
1:06:55been introduced and I and I was pissed
1:06:56off that they're producing lossy music
1:06:58we've talked about this on past shows I
1:06:59don't like you know it was music quality
1:07:01that was lower quality than CD it seemed
1:07:03like a step backwards Digital
1:07:04downloading good crappy compression bad
1:07:07hmm
1:07:08so I said basically that I thought that
1:07:11when you bought a song you should buy
1:07:12the rights to the best quality version
1:07:14of that song and even if they send you
1:07:16the crappy mp3 you should have the
1:07:17rights to the higher quality version as
1:07:19well so if you were a masochist you
1:07:20could download the big twenty-two
1:07:22megabyte uncompressed version
1:07:24uncompressed quote-unquote the CD
1:07:26quality version at the very least don't
1:07:27make it worse right and I said that
1:07:30Microsoft had a lossless audio format
1:07:33that they were using for this or could
1:07:35potentially useful I think they were
1:07:36using like plays for sure or whatever
1:07:38Microsoft's failed music initiative was
1:07:40at this particular time I think I
1:07:41referenced it and noted that they had a
1:07:43compressed but not lossy audio format I
1:07:47forget what the name was
1:07:48and the reason I remember this email
1:07:52among the five or six I've ever sent in
1:07:54my life is that he actually replied to
1:07:55it in his typical one sentence reply
1:07:58fashion ah
1:08:00he asked hee hee I figured what the pie
1:08:03was it basically was one sentence it
1:08:04said he was referencing the Microsoft
1:08:06lossless compression formats and it said
1:08:10what are these we are not aware of them
1:08:13right so now when you get when you get a
1:08:16response like that first of all it's not
1:08:19just like him saying yes or no it's a
1:08:20questions question you've got a result
1:08:22like wants to reply but on the other
1:08:24hand if this was for example one of my
1:08:26parents sending that reply but like take
1:08:28the words you just put in that sentence
1:08:30and paste them into Google and hit
1:08:31return you're feeling lucky like it's
1:08:33not rocket science but he's a busy man I
1:08:35feel like it would have taken less time
1:08:37then into you know and also he said we
1:08:42are not aware he's not not just I am not
1:08:43aware of these as an individual as a CEO
1:08:45but it seems like he you know had a
1:08:48conversation about it talk to somebody
1:08:50and said what is this Microsoft losses
1:08:51audio
1:08:52iq things you're thinking about someone
1:08:54mentioned doing have you heard of that
1:08:55and I guess like no we are not aware of
1:08:56that
1:08:56so what I did I always google it and
1:09:00write a one sentence reply of this is
1:09:02what it is but then underneath it
1:09:04provide in a passive aggressive manner
1:09:06the link to the Google search should
1:09:08what related you to the same information
1:09:10and of course you know they didn't reply
1:09:12to that Wow so I can't help being the
1:09:14jerk I guess so fast forward about six
1:09:20to eight months yeah and an Apple is I
1:09:24think they're on stage during one of
1:09:25their or maybe vision on stage maybe
1:09:27just on a site on their site but they
1:09:28released some iTunes update and as part
1:09:30of it was anything iTunes update a
1:09:32QuickTime update and as part of they
1:09:33released a new thing called the apple
1:09:35lossless audio codec which exists to
1:09:37this day you can encode audio in it now
1:09:42I don't know if you can connect those
1:09:43dots and say because I whined about
1:09:46anything you take credit for that I
1:09:48don't know if I take credit for it but
1:09:50the timing seems strange like first of
1:09:52all who in their right mind makes their
1:09:54own lossless audio compression format I
1:09:57don't think Apple Lossless is SuperDuper
1:09:59awesome I'm sure it has some kind of
1:10:01compression in it it's not just an
1:10:03uncompressed audio scream but I don't
1:10:06know I don't know how much technical
1:10:07underpinning there is to Apple Lossless
1:10:09is to just run-of-the-mill is it not
1:10:11even as good as flack I don't know but
1:10:13the fact is that when I wrote the email
1:10:16steve job claims to have no knowledge of
1:10:19microsoft's lossless audio formance
1:10:20maybe apple's already working on theirs
1:10:22but the bottom line is that some some
1:10:25results seem to happen from my email now
1:10:27did they release music and Apple
1:10:29Lossless no so really I was just
1:10:31basically ignored but I always found it
1:10:33funny that that series of events
1:10:37happened and that you know in my mind I
1:10:39like to think that that had some some
1:10:40you know effect towards them making that
1:10:42format you're gonna be one of those old
1:10:44you're gonna be one of these old guys
1:10:45who sits out in front of the the barber
1:10:48shop or the drugstore some that zipper I
1:10:50invented that and you know 78 I have
1:10:53other stories that I can't share uh-huh
1:10:55that have much tighter connections
1:10:57because did you share them with me
1:10:58offline yeah probably
1:11:00between my complaints and Apple doing
1:11:02things but they are must much less
1:11:04significant I made
1:11:05involve Steve Jobs at all hmm so that's
1:11:08my one interaction with Steve Jobs by
1:11:11one two-way interaction I have
1:11:13occasionally sent things and there's
1:11:14been a one line reply that's just a yes
1:11:16or no type of thing but do you think he
1:11:18knows who you are by name no no hey I
1:11:22was speaking of Steve Jobs were on this
1:11:24topic I was did you see a Gruber's
1:11:26wife's tweet during WTC I only stopped
1:11:29because he retweeted it Amy Amy Jean yes
1:11:32and I hate her thing was I was it was
1:11:34too quoted sequences which I assumed to
1:11:37be communications between one of the
1:11:39parents and their and their son was a
1:11:42daddy got to talk to Steve Jobs and the
1:11:45kids reply was he gets talk to Hodgins
1:11:47that would be cool something so that was
1:11:50that was the tweet all right and of
1:11:52course then I had to meet last wait did
1:11:54you talk to Steve Jobs when you were
1:11:55done see and he told me he did not uh
1:12:00but uh but the reason I thought he might
1:12:02have is like now after Jobs gives the
1:12:04keynote he comes down like into the
1:12:05audience and you're like I'm angles I
1:12:07guess right now obviously you know you
1:12:10can't the odds of you getting close to
1:12:12him are slim because he's surrounded by
1:12:13senior Apple people possibly also by
1:12:16bodyguards or other PR bounces that are
1:12:19keeping out the rabble Gruber noted that
1:12:22uh Dan Bricklin got to talk to Steve
1:12:25Jobs after the keynote so apparently it
1:12:26is possible to go from the audience
1:12:28wander over and say hey Steve Aquino de
1:12:30like that you know whatever dumb thing
1:12:32you're gonna say but on the other hand
1:12:34in Brooklyn invented visicalc which was
1:12:36a big part of what made the Apple to
1:12:38successful so I think he probably has a
1:12:40little bit more chance of getting past
1:12:41the outer perimeter of going to talk to
1:12:44Steve Jobs in anybody else and the other
1:12:46thing is that if you're gonna go talk to
1:12:47Steve Jobs into the keynote you're not
1:12:49going to have a meaningful exchange
1:12:49about anything assuming he acknowledges
1:12:51you what the heck you gonna say to him I
1:12:53really love you Steve we love your
1:12:54products been using them for years and
1:12:55you say thank you and you're going to
1:12:57shake his hand if you're lucky then
1:12:58you're gonna move on so it's not like
1:12:59you're really getting anything out of
1:13:01that you know I mean I'm sure as hell
1:13:02not signing autographs I don't try to
1:13:04make ups on your MacBook right but I
1:13:06would still have been very jealous if
1:13:07Gruber had talked to him and so he
1:13:10didn't isn't telling me or didn't but
1:13:12that is that is a possibility
1:13:13next time you're at a keynote you want
1:13:15to be that guy give it a shot III
1:13:17personally think if John Gruber
1:13:19did talk to Steve Jobs he might have he
1:13:22might have told his wife but he wouldn't
1:13:23tell us I don't know I don't think you'd
1:13:26be able to keep that himself out trust
1:13:28me trust me he has no problem that lying
1:13:31yeah I don't know he likes the lie to
1:13:33you that's a long thing that's a given
1:13:35yeah yeah but you like it that's the
1:13:38thing though Steve Jobs would know who
1:13:40John Gruber is he quoted him yeah he
1:13:41would know he liked it I'm sure he knows
1:13:43he is not I mean so it could totally
1:13:45happen right so if you were going to be
1:13:50a CEO of a large company who would you
1:13:52model yourself after the guy who retired
1:13:56with his millions and doesn't work
1:13:57anymore
1:13:58because I would be the worst not like
1:14:00these guys who are CEOs successful
1:14:02companies like once I became
1:14:05independently wealthy I would never work
1:14:06again say I was gonna say Paul Newman
1:14:09does he I guess he kind of like didn't
1:14:11do anything like eats salad dressing and
1:14:13well he'd you know like I give a lot of
1:14:14money to charity
1:14:15it didn't seem hands-on in that company
1:14:17he instilled some values set the thing
1:14:20up and and then you just just walk away
1:14:23you show up on Letterman once in a while
1:14:24skiing in the Aspen in Aspen in Colorado
1:14:27and just you know riding horses are
1:14:29doing whatever it is racing cars doing
1:14:30whatever Paul Newman does that's I would
1:14:32not be like here's that here's the weird
1:14:34thing if I became independently wealthy
1:14:36I would never work again but what I
1:14:38would do with my wealth and free time
1:14:39would closely resemble what people do in
1:14:41start-up companies I would just probably
1:14:44not be successful at all at it but
1:14:45that's that would be my hobby you know
1:14:47what I mean but I would not model myself
1:14:49after any of the CEOs so successful
1:14:53companies who were still working even
1:14:53Bill Gates stayed in it way longer and I
1:14:55would because he's a bazillionaire many
1:14:57times over like they have they're
1:14:58workaholics they have the drive to
1:14:59succeed they have the drive to build
1:15:00great things beyond themselves I have
1:15:03the drive to never have to work again
1:15:04you would just sort of build a fortress
1:15:06of solitude and retreat to that oh yeah
1:15:08not yeah if you if you gave me like Bill
1:15:10Gates tile money it would just be yeah
1:15:12would you would you build underground I
1:15:14would not build underground no
1:15:17definitely not you wouldn't have like a
1:15:18shelter oh no I wouldn't do the thing
1:15:22where like you'd make yourself a bomb
1:15:23shelter or stuff like that I bet you
1:15:25would
1:15:25and I would and the reason you're not
1:15:27admitting to it is because you don't
1:15:29want me to know about it know about my
1:15:30secret lair yes no but what I would do
1:15:32is like Bill
1:15:33software and like hire people to build a
1:15:35song like it would be if I'm telling you
1:15:38if anybody wants to give me several
1:15:39billion dollars it will be the biggest
1:15:41boon to the Mac and iOS independent
1:15:43software market than you've ever seen
1:15:46because I would distribute that money to
1:15:48every great developer I would like make
1:15:49them offers they can't refuse you know
1:15:51like higher amount of Marco Arment
1:15:52here's a million dollars is what I want
1:15:54you to write you know what I mean or
1:15:55whatever you want to write well just it
1:15:57would be completely a commune of like
1:15:58writing cool software and making cool
1:16:00hardware and just yeah so it's probably
1:16:04a good thing they don't have billions
1:16:05dollars because that seems like a huge
1:16:06waste of money but that's what I would
1:16:07do with my money but I sure as hell
1:16:09would not continue to go to a job and
1:16:11you know fight and compete with other
1:16:13people well on that positive note we'll
1:16:15end but we will be back next week on on
1:16:19Friday to talk you can follow John
1:16:21siracusa on Twitter s IRAC us a nosy in
1:16:26circ user I'm Dan benjamin also on
1:16:29twitter nosy in Dan Benjamin
1:16:32thanks to fresh books Colin felt-tip
1:16:35calm and those people who've been
1:16:38raiding the show in iTunes thank you
1:16:40people who have been donating to help
1:16:425x5 thank you people who have been
1:16:44eagerly anticipating John's write up
1:16:47online you'll have to wait good week you
1:16:53dumb
1:17:07you