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Hypercritical

14: A Dark Age of Objective-C

 

00:00:00   [Music] [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/0">TS</a>]

00:00:01   this is hypercritical it's a weekly [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1">TS</a>]

00:00:04   talkshow ruminating on exactly what is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4">TS</a>]

00:00:06   wrong the world of Apple and related [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/6">TS</a>]

00:00:08   technologies and businesses nothing is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/8">TS</a>]

00:00:10   so perfect that my co-host John siracusa [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/10">TS</a>]

00:00:14   could not find something wrong with it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/14">TS</a>]

00:00:16   there's nothing he can't complain hi [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/16">TS</a>]

00:00:18   John [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/18">TS</a>]

00:00:19   again I'm Dan benjamin and we'd like to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/19">TS</a>]

00:00:22   say thanks to Rackspace calm and Shopify [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/22">TS</a>]

00:00:25   comm for making the show possible tell [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/25">TS</a>]

00:00:27   you more about them as the program [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/27">TS</a>]

00:00:29   continues but you know it's becoming [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/29">TS</a>]

00:00:31   it's becoming a little bit of a of a a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/31">TS</a>]

00:00:34   stake of yours almost that the follow up [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/34">TS</a>]

00:00:37   is most of the show know that the other [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/37">TS</a>]

00:00:40   the other hosts of the other shows are [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/40">TS</a>]

00:00:42   now they have something that they will [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/42">TS</a>]

00:00:44   refer to as John siracusa mode anytime [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/44">TS</a>]

00:00:49   they do follow if I can make them feel [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/49">TS</a>]

00:00:52   that it's their responsibility to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/52">TS</a>]

00:00:53   address issues raised by listeners about [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/53">TS</a>]

00:00:55   their previous show I feel I will have [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/55">TS</a>]

00:00:57   succeeded I found out today you're 6 [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/57">TS</a>]

00:01:00   foot 2 that's right [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/60">TS</a>]

00:01:02   while I was in my youth now I'm a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/62">TS</a>]

00:01:04   hunched old man with or without the hair [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/64">TS</a>]

00:01:06   that's without ok do you wet it down [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/66">TS</a>]

00:01:13   when you take measurements to keep it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/73">TS</a>]

00:01:14   flat or one it squishes down you know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/74">TS</a>]

00:01:17   how tall you do you have some sort of a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/77">TS</a>]

00:01:19   Napoleon complex no I don't think so I'm [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/79">TS</a>]

00:01:21   you know I'm average height in Korea [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/81">TS</a>]

00:01:24   five seven five seven you know five [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/84">TS</a>]

00:01:28   eight with a nice pair of shoes on five [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/88">TS</a>]

00:01:32   five ten in a podium I'll file that away [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/92">TS</a>]

00:01:35   mm-hmm lock lock it up all right so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/95">TS</a>]

00:01:40   you're ready for some fu fu yeah [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/100">TS</a>]

00:01:43   what is the fu the follow-up follow-up [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/103">TS</a>]

00:01:46   yeah I don't I don't think I want to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/106">TS</a>]

00:01:48   stick with that but it is a convenient [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/108">TS</a>]

00:01:51   abbreviation I like it yeah let's do [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/111">TS</a>]

00:01:55   that for you all right so uh last week [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/115">TS</a>]

00:02:00   we talked about Apple's UI consistency [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/120">TS</a>]

00:02:03   over the years and that that topic had [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/123">TS</a>]

00:02:06   been our list for a long time and we [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/126">TS</a>]

00:02:08   finally got to it because we're running [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/128">TS</a>]

00:02:09   out of stuff but I know you wanted it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/129">TS</a>]

00:02:11   for a long time so I only got to it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/131">TS</a>]

00:02:13   and then after we finished recording [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/133">TS</a>]

00:02:15   show I was catching up on the Twitter's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/135">TS</a>]

00:02:18   and I saw a tweet from mr. Merlin man [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/138">TS</a>]

00:02:20   who was actually reply to me which is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/140">TS</a>]

00:02:23   strange because he normally doesn't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/143">TS</a>]

00:02:24   communicate with me on Twitter but this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/144">TS</a>]

00:02:26   time he did reply and I said hey I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/146">TS</a>]

00:02:27   listened to your UI consistency thing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/147">TS</a>]

00:02:29   and I think you would like this talk by [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/149">TS</a>]

00:02:31   this other guy so I followed it and it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/151">TS</a>]

00:02:33   was a link to John Gruber's uh web stock [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/153">TS</a>]

00:02:36   mm-hmm talk from this year and I like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/156">TS</a>]

00:02:38   wow I thought that one was in recorded [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/158">TS</a>]

00:02:40   because I remember hearing him [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/160">TS</a>]

00:02:41   complaining that they didn't record his [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/161">TS</a>]

00:02:43   session and he was angry about it and it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/163">TS</a>]

00:02:44   turns out that was South by Southwest [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/164">TS</a>]

00:02:45   that he was angry about not recording [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/165">TS</a>]

00:02:48   and in fact it turns out that actually [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/168">TS</a>]

00:02:49   did record South by Southwest [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/169">TS</a>]

00:02:50   unbeknownst to him they only did auto [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/170">TS</a>]

00:02:52   audio recording right but anyway so I'm [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/172">TS</a>]

00:02:55   like great I'm gonna take a look at this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/175">TS</a>]

00:02:56   this talk now so later that day I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/176">TS</a>]

00:02:58   started watching the talk and he begins [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/178">TS</a>]

00:03:00   and I'm like yeah he's kind of starting [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/180">TS</a>]

00:03:03   the same place that I would be talking [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/183">TS</a>]

00:03:04   about like the Mac is the first GUI and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/184">TS</a>]

00:03:06   what it meant to be a GUI and you know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/186">TS</a>]

00:03:08   that the days before the GUI existed and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/188">TS</a>]

00:03:11   then he starts talking about some [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/191">TS</a>]

00:03:14   examples of the early GUI he brings up [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/194">TS</a>]

00:03:16   that original Mac control panel so I'm [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/196">TS</a>]

00:03:18   watching this thing with like a growing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/198">TS</a>]

00:03:19   sense of horror that every single thing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/199">TS</a>]

00:03:22   he's saying in this talk is something [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/202">TS</a>]

00:03:23   that I just recorded in a podcast of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/203">TS</a>]

00:03:25   course the problem is that that web [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/205">TS</a>]

00:03:26   stock talk was like months ago is that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/206">TS</a>]

00:03:28   like last month or something [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/208">TS</a>]

00:03:30   I said no I'm like yeah I think it was a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/210">TS</a>]

00:03:32   nothing oh my god everybody who listens [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/212">TS</a>]

00:03:34   to that episode is going to assume that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/214">TS</a>]

00:03:36   I either went to wyoweb stock or watched [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/216">TS</a>]

00:03:38   the web stock talk and then just rehash [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/218">TS</a>]

00:03:40   from an odd I don't think so at all and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/220">TS</a>]

00:03:42   but I swear to you I had not seen that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/222">TS</a>]

00:03:44   talk until after I recorded the episode [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/224">TS</a>]

00:03:48   almost immediately after which is it was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/228">TS</a>]

00:03:49   just a horrible horrible experience no I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/229">TS</a>]

00:03:51   thought well let me let me chime in here [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/231">TS</a>]

00:03:53   for a second I don't think you need to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/233">TS</a>]

00:03:55   worry about this at all because I think [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/235">TS</a>]

00:03:57   first of all I didn't watch it either i [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/237">TS</a>]

00:03:59   ID my only I only if I'm if John Gruber [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/239">TS</a>]

00:04:03   is not talking to me on the talk show I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/243">TS</a>]

00:04:05   don't I don't want to hear his voice [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/245">TS</a>]

00:04:06   so I read his stuff but I if I hear him [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/246">TS</a>]

00:04:09   I want to talk back so I can't listen to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/249">TS</a>]

00:04:11   him talking in somewhere else it's too [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/251">TS</a>]

00:04:13   difficult so I hadn't seen it either [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/253">TS</a>]

00:04:16   otherwise I would have stopped you I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/256">TS</a>]

00:04:17   wouldn't let you go I wouldn't let you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/257">TS</a>]

00:04:18   you know I would have said oh it didn't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/258">TS</a>]

00:04:21   you see John Gruber's thing on I didn't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/261">TS</a>]

00:04:24   even know what he was talking about and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/264">TS</a>]

00:04:25   every time I asked him what how was your [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/265">TS</a>]

00:04:27   talk he's like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/267">TS</a>]

00:04:27   I was all right so what'd you talk about [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/267">TS</a>]

00:04:29   and he kind of you know changes the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/269">TS</a>]

00:04:31   subject yeah so I mean this is not an [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/271">TS</a>]

00:04:35   uncommon thing amongst the two of us [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/275">TS</a>]

00:04:38   where we will end up having the same [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/278">TS</a>]

00:04:41   take on a particular topic to the point [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/281">TS</a>]

00:04:44   where some people would think that we [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/284">TS</a>]

00:04:45   collaborated beforehand on on various [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/285">TS</a>]

00:04:47   things or that we're the same person or [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/287">TS</a>]

00:04:49   anything like that but that's not the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/289">TS</a>]

00:04:51   case it just so happens that we end up [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/291">TS</a>]

00:04:53   having the same things on this case it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/293">TS</a>]

00:04:54   was particularly spooky because we pick [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/294">TS</a>]

00:04:55   like the same examples and stuff but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/295">TS</a>]

00:04:57   it's it's really strange to me [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/297">TS</a>]

00:04:58   especially since you know you Gruber's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/298">TS</a>]

00:05:00   history with the Mack started pretty [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/300">TS</a>]

00:05:02   late like I think in the past episode [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/302">TS</a>]

00:05:04   with you who he talked about his first [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/304">TS</a>]

00:05:05   night being an LC right maybe that was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/305">TS</a>]

00:05:08   in the talk but yeah but that's that's a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/308">TS</a>]

00:05:09   late comer right and I was there since [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/309">TS</a>]

00:05:10   1984 but we still end up with the same [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/310">TS</a>]

00:05:12   take on things but the reason I bring [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/312">TS</a>]

00:05:15   this up now is because if you watch the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/315">TS</a>]

00:05:17   whole talk even though there we start [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/317">TS</a>]

00:05:21   off the same way and we choose a lot of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/321">TS</a>]

00:05:22   the same examples there is a divergence [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/322">TS</a>]

00:05:24   there and I think the point that I was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/324">TS</a>]

00:05:26   making with some of those same examples [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/326">TS</a>]

00:05:27   was different than the points that he [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/327">TS</a>]

00:05:28   was making so my main point on on the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/328">TS</a>]

00:05:32   topics that we overlapped on was that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/332">TS</a>]

00:05:34   Apple has always sort of worked beyond [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/334">TS</a>]

00:05:36   the bounds of its own UI guidelines but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/336">TS</a>]

00:05:41   Gruber's point in the talk was that the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/341">TS</a>]

00:05:45   change in the look of the GUI was a lot [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/345">TS</a>]

00:05:47   slower in the beginning and it took a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/347">TS</a>]

00:05:50   bowl a while to feel confident that they [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/350">TS</a>]

00:05:52   could start changing look in ways that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/352">TS</a>]

00:05:54   wouldn't confuse people sort of that in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/354">TS</a>]

00:05:56   my example that I was using was that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/356">TS</a>]

00:05:58   from that talk book of multiplex [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/358">TS</a>]

00:05:59   meetings where you have the you know 20 [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/359">TS</a>]

00:06:01   different versions of a house icon or [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/361">TS</a>]

00:06:03   the the the classic Mac OS extension [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/363">TS</a>]

00:06:06   puzzle pieces to face in all different [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/366">TS</a>]

00:06:07   directions as long as people can tell [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/367">TS</a>]

00:06:08   what it is it's ok so we were using that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/368">TS</a>]

00:06:14   we both took that control panel example [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/374">TS</a>]

00:06:16   but he was using it as an example of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/376">TS</a>]

00:06:17   like look at this ey doesn't use labels [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/377">TS</a>]

00:06:19   look at how different it is that what's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/379">TS</a>]

00:06:20   come before it and I was using it as an [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/380">TS</a>]

00:06:22   example of how Apple wasn't beholden to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/382">TS</a>]

00:06:25   its own guidelines from day one and they [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/385">TS</a>]

00:06:26   made this window completely filled with [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/386">TS</a>]

00:06:28   non-standard controls the only standard [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/388">TS</a>]

00:06:29   control on the entire thing was the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/389">TS</a>]

00:06:30   title bar so even though we use the same [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/390">TS</a>]

00:06:33   example I think we made very different [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/393">TS</a>]

00:06:34   points now in the end you say is a last [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/394">TS</a>]

00:06:38   episode in his talk of a contradictory [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/398">TS</a>]

00:06:41   are they you know completely at odds I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/401">TS</a>]

00:06:43   don't think they're completely at odds [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/403">TS</a>]

00:06:45   they do make a lot of the same points [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/405">TS</a>]

00:06:46   especially about how you can change the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/406">TS</a>]

00:06:48   look of something and as long as people [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/408">TS</a>]

00:06:50   can still tell what it is it's fine and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/410">TS</a>]

00:06:52   the the role of fashion in design and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/412">TS</a>]

00:06:54   how changing the look actually has has a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/414">TS</a>]

00:06:57   purpose it's not just arbitrary the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/417">TS</a>]

00:07:00   place where I think we would diverge is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/420">TS</a>]

00:07:02   that a Gruber seems to contend that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/422">TS</a>]

00:07:04   Apple followed the Haig to the letter in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/424">TS</a>]

00:07:06   the old days like he's positing a time [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/426">TS</a>]

00:07:08   when Apple conformed more strictly to to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/428">TS</a>]

00:07:11   human interface guidelines and I think [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/431">TS</a>]

00:07:14   his example has since he used that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/434">TS</a>]

00:07:16   control panel example example from [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/436">TS</a>]

00:07:17   earlier in his talk contradicts that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/437">TS</a>]

00:07:18   that you know maybe the look of the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/438">TS</a>]

00:07:21   entire OS didn't changes as quickly but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/441">TS</a>]

00:07:24   certainly Apple was never a slave to the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/444">TS</a>]

00:07:26   Haig and I don't think there was ever a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/446">TS</a>]

00:07:28   time that Apple was like that where I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/448">TS</a>]

00:07:29   think we would agree is that when he [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/449">TS</a>]

00:07:31   goes into this the middle time of the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/451">TS</a>]

00:07:33   Mac where there was sort of an [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/453">TS</a>]

00:07:35   exuberance of a variation where we had [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/455">TS</a>]

00:07:38   kaleidoscope and he talks about be view [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/458">TS</a>]

00:07:39   of the thing that made your windows look [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/459">TS</a>]

00:07:40   like BOS he trots out the high tech and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/460">TS</a>]

00:07:43   the gizmo and drawing board themes from [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/463">TS</a>]

00:07:44   Apple there was that period where they [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/464">TS</a>]

00:07:45   were really like there were no rules and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/465">TS</a>]

00:07:47   there was lots of experimentation we [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/467">TS</a>]

00:07:49   finally were being removed from the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/469">TS</a>]

00:07:51   bounds of everything looking exactly the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/471">TS</a>]

00:07:52   same so I think we would agree on that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/472">TS</a>]

00:07:55   point but where we differ is that I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/475">TS</a>]

00:07:58   think it was an apple that follow things [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/478">TS</a>]

00:08:01   to letter in the old days it was the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/481">TS</a>]

00:08:02   developers did that's what I tried to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/482">TS</a>]

00:08:04   get into a talk of saying how like Apple [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/484">TS</a>]

00:08:06   put out these guidelines and the people [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/486">TS</a>]

00:08:07   who are enthusiastic for the platform [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/487">TS</a>]

00:08:08   felt compelled to treat the guidelines [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/488">TS</a>]

00:08:11   as Bible as a way of advancing the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/491">TS</a>]

00:08:13   platform and it wasn't so much Apple it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/493">TS</a>]

00:08:14   was the very enthusiastic supporters and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/494">TS</a>]

00:08:18   advocates of the platform that were you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/498">TS</a>]

00:08:21   know signed up to the Hague is the Bible [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/501">TS</a>]

00:08:23   not Apple itself they made some good [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/503">TS</a>]

00:08:26   points later but it's just in the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/506">TS</a>]

00:08:27   consistency in uniformity my favorite [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/507">TS</a>]

00:08:30   one was where he mentioned that Jobs had [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/510">TS</a>]

00:08:33   gotten rid of the idea of everything [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/513">TS</a>]

00:08:36   looking exactly the same he wanted [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/516">TS</a>]

00:08:38   things to be consistent but then had to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/518">TS</a>]

00:08:39   look exactly the same but then he pulls [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/519">TS</a>]

00:08:40   up a slide that he said I think it's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/520">TS</a>]

00:08:42   funny the guy who came up with this is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/522">TS</a>]

00:08:43   known for having a uniform and it shows [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/523">TS</a>]

00:08:45   20 different pictures of jobs and he's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/525">TS</a>]

00:08:46   always wearing of course the same outfit [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/526">TS</a>]

00:08:47   the black mock turtleneck in the jeans [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/527">TS</a>]

00:08:49   if people haven't seen this talk it's in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/529">TS</a>]

00:08:52   the show notes and actually now thanks [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/532">TS</a>]

00:08:53   to your website change [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/533">TS</a>]

00:08:54   you can see the show notes during the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/534">TS</a>]

00:08:56   show if you go to the or is it five by [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/536">TS</a>]

00:08:59   five dot TV slash hypercritical slash [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/539">TS</a>]

00:09:01   next net slash next I'll every time will [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/541">TS</a>]

00:09:04   take you to whatever the the next show [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/544">TS</a>]

00:09:06   is for you and if there is no next show [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/546">TS</a>]

00:09:08   yet it means we haven't started [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/548">TS</a>]

00:09:09   collecting links but at any point you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/549">TS</a>]

00:09:11   can go there as soon as we start getting [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/551">TS</a>]

00:09:14   ready free you can add comments and and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/554">TS</a>]

00:09:17   all that stuff there yeah so I suggest [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/557">TS</a>]

00:09:18   uh even even if you have listened the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/558">TS</a>]

00:09:21   last episode I was suggested watching [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/561">TS</a>]

00:09:24   his talk anyway even though some of the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/564">TS</a>]

00:09:26   same points are made there are enough [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/566">TS</a>]

00:09:27   new points in there that you should [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/567">TS</a>]

00:09:28   definitely take a look at it there's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/568">TS</a>]

00:09:29   some good good slides in there alright [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/569">TS</a>]

00:09:33   and ants on the same topic last on last [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/573">TS</a>]

00:09:36   week's show sort of snuck into the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/576">TS</a>]

00:09:38   follow-up was a topic that was not [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/578">TS</a>]

00:09:39   actually a fallout post kind of follow [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/579">TS</a>]

00:09:41   up we talked about Facebook's open [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/581">TS</a>]

00:09:43   source data center initiative I think [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/583">TS</a>]

00:09:45   that was kind of a follow up as to the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/585">TS</a>]

00:09:47   yeah yeah online stuff in this case I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/587">TS</a>]

00:09:50   knew that John Stokes Ars Technica had [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/590">TS</a>]

00:09:52   written an article about it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/592">TS</a>]

00:09:53   I think either earlier that day at the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/593">TS</a>]

00:09:55   previous day and I intentionally didn't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/595">TS</a>]

00:09:56   read it so I wouldn't be spoiled so but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/596">TS</a>]

00:09:58   what it turns out is a my take on that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/598">TS</a>]

00:10:00   situation was the same as his I don't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/600">TS</a>]

00:10:02   think that's a big surprise just because [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/602">TS</a>]

00:10:04   it's kind of obvious what Facebook is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/604">TS</a>]

00:10:06   doing I don't think there's any [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/606">TS</a>]

00:10:07   particular insight that either one of us [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/607">TS</a>]

00:10:09   had there but he did a good write-up on [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/609">TS</a>]

00:10:10   that and I put that link in the show [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/610">TS</a>]

00:10:11   notes so you know that's another example [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/611">TS</a>]

00:10:15   of you said if something happens and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/615">TS</a>]

00:10:17   seven people have the same opinion on [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/617">TS</a>]

00:10:19   doesn't mean they collaborate it just [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/619">TS</a>]

00:10:20   means that there are some obvious [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/620">TS</a>]

00:10:21   conclusions that can be drawn from the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/621">TS</a>]

00:10:23   same facts that everyone has available [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/623">TS</a>]

00:10:24   to them alright so now for some actual [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/624">TS</a>]

00:10:27   follow up a little bit of feedback on [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/627">TS</a>]

00:10:30   the the funny look in iCal and lion I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/630">TS</a>]

00:10:33   got some opinions in different [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/633">TS</a>]

00:10:36   directions here but someone brought up a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/636">TS</a>]

00:10:37   good point about how making making [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/637">TS</a>]

00:10:41   windows look just completely different [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/641">TS</a>]

00:10:43   from all the windows regardless of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/643">TS</a>]

00:10:46   whether it's ugly or not there has a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/646">TS</a>]

00:10:47   benefit of making it easy to find on the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/647">TS</a>]

00:10:50   screen so I Cal is this big ugly you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/650">TS</a>]

00:10:53   know brown looking giant toolbar thing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/653">TS</a>]

00:10:56   it's really easy to pick that out on the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/656">TS</a>]

00:10:58   screen [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/658">TS</a>]

00:10:58   as opposed to just a giant gray toolbar [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/658">TS</a>]

00:11:01   which blends in with all your other or [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/661">TS</a>]

00:11:03   anything John great tool box now there's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/663">TS</a>]

00:11:04   a limit to that you know one app gets to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/664">TS</a>]

00:11:05   be like that fine but if every app is a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/665">TS</a>]

00:11:07   different color [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/667">TS</a>]

00:11:08   you now lose the ability to pick stuff [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/668">TS</a>]

00:11:10   out because it's just like looking at a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/670">TS</a>]

00:11:12   big screen full of plaid you know but I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/672">TS</a>]

00:11:16   think that was a good point where that's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/676">TS</a>]

00:11:18   kind of the advantage of the Apple hats [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/678">TS</a>]

00:11:19   of Apple decides to make some super [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/679">TS</a>]

00:11:20   important app look weird like the set [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/680">TS</a>]

00:11:23   for the finder for instance they decide [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/683">TS</a>]

00:11:25   to make the Finder windows green with [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/685">TS</a>]

00:11:26   grass on them and nobody else could have [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/686">TS</a>]

00:11:28   that look because you know you can't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/688">TS</a>]

00:11:29   theme the OS and you don't want to put [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/689">TS</a>]

00:11:31   custom windows on all of your things so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/691">TS</a>]

00:11:32   you'd see the finder window stand out [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/692">TS</a>]

00:11:34   this it look green well Apple can do [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/694">TS</a>]

00:11:36   that with the app that it knows [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/696">TS</a>]

00:11:38   everybody has to run because it launches [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/698">TS</a>]

00:11:39   when you log in and it can kind of be [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/699">TS</a>]

00:11:41   the only one to do it but if it becomes [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/701">TS</a>]

00:11:43   a trend then it just you know it stops [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/703">TS</a>]

00:11:46   being an advantage so I would not hold [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/706">TS</a>]

00:11:49   that up as a reason to justify I can't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/709">TS</a>]

00:11:51   looking funny in lyon but it may be a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/711">TS</a>]

00:11:55   practical result of iCal looking funny [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/715">TS</a>]

00:11:57   is that it'll be a lot easier to find [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/717">TS</a>]

00:11:58   that iCal window [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/718">TS</a>]

00:11:59   assuming every other Apple app doesn't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/719">TS</a>]

00:12:00   also have some crazy new look I think [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/720">TS</a>]

00:12:04   but I think that's what we're going to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/724">TS</a>]

00:12:05   anticipate is that every amp is going to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/725">TS</a>]

00:12:07   have a weird new look they can't do it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/727">TS</a>]

00:12:09   with everyone - and they don't care [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/729">TS</a>]

00:12:11   enough like what are they gonna make [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/731">TS</a>]

00:12:12   terminal look different now it's gonna [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/732">TS</a>]

00:12:14   be great windows everywhere [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/734">TS</a>]

00:12:15   I don't expect there were some pictures [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/735">TS</a>]

00:12:17   of address book looking different - but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/737">TS</a>]

00:12:19   those are kind of a piece you know it's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/739">TS</a>]

00:12:21   like if there's an if there's an iPad [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/741">TS</a>]

00:12:23   equivalent of the app maybe they'll try [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/743">TS</a>]

00:12:25   to sync up the look among them on the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/745">TS</a>]

00:12:26   iCal versions all have some sort of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/746">TS</a>]

00:12:27   strange look on them so we'll see but I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/747">TS</a>]

00:12:30   really don't expect like Safari to get [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/750">TS</a>]

00:12:32   all weird the Finder terminal activity [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/752">TS</a>]

00:12:35   viewer I mean there's a limit you know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/755">TS</a>]

00:12:38   so I related this as someone brought up [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/758">TS</a>]

00:12:41   the reverse of this where Apple takes a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/761">TS</a>]

00:12:44   UI element that previously had a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/764">TS</a>]

00:12:46   distinct look and makes it all the same [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/766">TS</a>]

00:12:47   and they're doing that a lot with [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/767">TS</a>]

00:12:49   toolbar buttons making them look sort of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/769">TS</a>]

00:12:51   like they do when the iPad apps where [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/771">TS</a>]

00:12:53   it's just kind of like a gray silhouette [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/773">TS</a>]

00:12:55   like it's stamped into the toolbar right [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/775">TS</a>]

00:12:57   all monochrome right and that makes them [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/777">TS</a>]

00:13:00   much less distinct than when they were [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/780">TS</a>]

00:13:01   colorful photographic looking yeah [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/781">TS</a>]

00:13:04   icons and so now when you look at the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/784">TS</a>]

00:13:06   tight the title bar the toolbar of an [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/786">TS</a>]

00:13:08   app and you want to find the button for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/788">TS</a>]

00:13:10   like you know reply to email or you know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/790">TS</a>]

00:13:12   for word or whatever now you're just [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/792">TS</a>]

00:13:13   looking based on shape instead of color [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/793">TS</a>]

00:13:15   you know you still got position but it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/795">TS</a>]

00:13:17   seems it seems though like for a long [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/797">TS</a>]

00:13:20   time one of the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/800">TS</a>]

00:13:22   I don't know if I would call it a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/802">TS</a>]

00:13:25   feature but I mean even the term aqua I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/805">TS</a>]

00:13:28   mean everything about Mac os10 was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/808">TS</a>]

00:13:31   colorful and poppin and shiny and and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/811">TS</a>]

00:13:34   they've just have gone continuously more [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/814">TS</a>]

00:13:36   and more and more toward a monochrome [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/816">TS</a>]

00:13:39   kind of a look now they have been [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/819">TS</a>]

00:13:42   leeching the color out a lot I mean you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/822">TS</a>]

00:13:43   saw them do it with iTunes most recently [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/823">TS</a>]

00:13:45   right and the i io s apps tend to have a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/825">TS</a>]

00:13:48   lot of color leached out of them too but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/828">TS</a>]

00:13:49   they go off another direct light I mean [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/829">TS</a>]

00:13:51   you would definitely not say that the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/831">TS</a>]

00:13:53   new the Lion I Cal has the color leech [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/833">TS</a>]

00:13:54   data but its exact opposite sorry they [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/834">TS</a>]

00:13:57   pick their battles but it seems like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/837">TS</a>]

00:13:59   this is this is a look they're [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/839">TS</a>]

00:14:00   cultivating for like the serious kind of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/840">TS</a>]

00:14:04   application it's monochrome look at [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/844">TS</a>]

00:14:05   Final Cut Pro 10 which was revealed this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/845">TS</a>]

00:14:07   week that interface looks like looks [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/847">TS</a>]

00:14:10   like the high-tech theme practically [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/850">TS</a>]

00:14:11   from from very Copeland [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/851">TS</a>]

00:14:13   you know it's all jet black with like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/853">TS</a>]

00:14:15   light gray stuff on it and maybe some [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/855">TS</a>]

00:14:17   like blinky fake looking LED things so I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/857">TS</a>]

00:14:24   don't know I think they're just [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/864">TS</a>]

00:14:26   cultivating many different looks and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/866">TS</a>]

00:14:28   deciding where each one is appropriate I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/868">TS</a>]

00:14:29   think they're back into experimentation [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/869">TS</a>]

00:14:31   I think it was the quiet period was a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/871">TS</a>]

00:14:33   leopard and Snow Leopard where [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/873">TS</a>]

00:14:34   everything went gray and they finally [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/874">TS</a>]

00:14:35   got rid of brush mail and everything [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/875">TS</a>]

00:14:37   else and they just had like a reset time [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/877">TS</a>]

00:14:38   and now I think they're experimenting [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/878">TS</a>]

00:14:39   again one more one more follow-up item I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/879">TS</a>]

00:14:44   think we can fit in here okay [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/884">TS</a>]

00:14:46   so there was a link that went around [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/886">TS</a>]

00:14:48   that's in the show notes about how TiVo [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/888">TS</a>]

00:14:50   was sending out surveys to its customers [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/890">TS</a>]

00:14:52   and it was like you you had a hundred [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/892">TS</a>]

00:14:55   points to to spread on the survey among [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/895">TS</a>]

00:14:58   a big list of features and you were [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/898">TS</a>]

00:15:00   supposed to distribute your points [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/900">TS</a>]

00:15:01   according to how much you wanted the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/901">TS</a>]

00:15:04   particular feature so Engadget posted [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/904">TS</a>]

00:15:06   this and they posted the entire list of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/906">TS</a>]

00:15:07   features that you were allowed to spread [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/907">TS</a>]

00:15:08   them along and it's a big list like 30 [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/908">TS</a>]

00:15:10   features or something like that I mean [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/910">TS</a>]

00:15:11   so I read through the whole thing I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/911">TS</a>]

00:15:13   don't know why I'm bothered by cooking [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/913">TS</a>]

00:15:14   before I read it I knew the types of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/914">TS</a>]

00:15:16   features that they would be asking about [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/916">TS</a>]

00:15:17   would not make me happy so they asked [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/917">TS</a>]

00:15:20   about features like a multi-room viewing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/920">TS</a>]

00:15:21   which a lot of the DVRs that you get [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/921">TS</a>]

00:15:24   from your cable company can do or use [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/924">TS</a>]

00:15:26   that you pay for one DVR and then the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/926">TS</a>]

00:15:27   second room you have another little [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/927">TS</a>]

00:15:28   smaller cheaper box that lets you see [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/928">TS</a>]

00:15:30   stuff on the other DVR so you don't have [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/930">TS</a>]

00:15:32   these islands of content in your house [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/932">TS</a>]

00:15:34   then you can just have one DVR that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/934">TS</a>]

00:15:35   requires a bunch of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/935">TS</a>]

00:15:36   stuff you can watch it anywhere and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/936">TS</a>]

00:15:39   they're talking about a Fortuner model [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/939">TS</a>]

00:15:41   and a whole bunch of a whole bunch of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/941">TS</a>]

00:15:43   obvious software features that they [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/943">TS</a>]

00:15:44   should have had years ago that I don't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/944">TS</a>]

00:15:45   know why they're asking about would you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/945">TS</a>]

00:15:46   like it if you have a HD version of the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/946">TS</a>]

00:15:48   channel that we give you the ability to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/948">TS</a>]

00:15:50   hide the SD version yes of course why [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/950">TS</a>]

00:15:51   would I ever watch the SD version ever I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/951">TS</a>]

00:15:54   don't even want to see it but no they [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/954">TS</a>]

00:15:55   have to survey about this this drives me [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/955">TS</a>]

00:15:57   nuts so reading this is making me angry [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/957">TS</a>]

00:15:58   especially since the key features that I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/958">TS</a>]

00:16:00   think are most important are not listed [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/960">TS</a>]

00:16:01   for the same reason they usually not [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/961">TS</a>]

00:16:03   listed and it's like a sickness that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/963">TS</a>]

00:16:05   companies have where they they start [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/965">TS</a>]

00:16:07   seeing things in terms of feature bullet [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/967">TS</a>]

00:16:09   points and they can't they can't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/969">TS</a>]

00:16:10   understand what's actually wrong with [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/970">TS</a>]

00:16:12   their product what's actually wrong with [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/972">TS</a>]

00:16:13   TiVo is the freaking box is slow slow [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/973">TS</a>]

00:16:15   and ugly and just you know things should [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/975">TS</a>]

00:16:18   not take that long and they get slower [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/978">TS</a>]

00:16:19   with time and this is nowhere on the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/979">TS</a>]

00:16:21   list I'm not going to say would you like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/981">TS</a>]

00:16:22   it if the menus came out faster because [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/982">TS</a>]

00:16:23   people are gonna be like yeah maybe [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/983">TS</a>]

00:16:24   maybe not people will not ask for this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/984">TS</a>]

00:16:26   but you have to give it to them they [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/986">TS</a>]

00:16:27   don't this you know they don't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/987">TS</a>]

00:16:29   understand they can say well we want to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/989">TS</a>]

00:16:30   spend X millions of dollars to make our [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/990">TS</a>]

00:16:31   user interface faster it's faster what [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/991">TS</a>]

00:16:33   do you mean people don't complain about [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/993">TS</a>]

00:16:34   it being slow it's fine they don't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/994">TS</a>]

00:16:36   understand that you know people are not [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/996">TS</a>]

00:16:37   going to ask for it if if iOS never [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/997">TS</a>]

00:16:39   existed and it was just Android tablets [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/999">TS</a>]

00:16:41   and stuff like that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1001">TS</a>]

00:16:42   it'll be like a look at the zoom tablet [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1002">TS</a>]

00:16:44   it's amazing and I can zoom and look at [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1004">TS</a>]

00:16:46   these Android things they're awesome if [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1006">TS</a>]

00:16:47   you've never seen ILS and how it sticks [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1007">TS</a>]

00:16:48   to your fingers when you move in stuff [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1008">TS</a>]

00:16:50   you don't know you're missing it users [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1010">TS</a>]

00:16:51   will not ask you for a more responsive [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1011">TS</a>]

00:16:53   interface but when you give them more [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1013">TS</a>]

00:16:54   responsive interface they will prefer [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1014">TS</a>]

00:16:56   that over the less responsive one even [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1016">TS</a>]

00:16:58   if they don't know why it is that they [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1018">TS</a>]

00:16:59   prefer it I think you know the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1019">TS</a>]

00:17:01   experience of iOS is born then out and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1021">TS</a>]

00:17:02   the fact that TiVo is getting slower [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1022">TS</a>]

00:17:04   with time and instead of even just [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1024">TS</a>]

00:17:05   staying the same let alone getting [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1025">TS</a>]

00:17:06   faster as it should with the huge [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1026">TS</a>]

00:17:08   advances in technology we've had since [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1028">TS</a>]

00:17:09   like 2000 just frustrating so I'm I did [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1029">TS</a>]

00:17:14   not like that feature list if I had if I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1034">TS</a>]

00:17:17   had gotten that server I would have [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1037">TS</a>]

00:17:18   written a new option put all hundred [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1038">TS</a>]

00:17:19   points on it said make your user [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1039">TS</a>]

00:17:21   interface faster ah all right now I love [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1041">TS</a>]

00:17:25   when you go off on a rant like that I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1045">TS</a>]

00:17:27   can't I can't take it I feel like hey [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1047">TS</a>]

00:17:29   dude six more shows just about TiVo like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1049">TS</a>]

00:17:31   we should just have you know guests in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1051">TS</a>]

00:17:34   the show and say do you own a TiVo name [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1054">TS</a>]

00:17:35   the seven thing obvious things that TiVo [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1055">TS</a>]

00:17:37   could do to be better that I've driven [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1057">TS</a>]

00:17:38   you crazy for the past decade that they [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1058">TS</a>]

00:17:40   had refused to do so a real a roundtable [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1060">TS</a>]

00:17:45   everybody takes a turn it's just you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1065">TS</a>]

00:17:47   know I still feel like if you took ten [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1067">TS</a>]

00:17:49   people off the street who [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1069">TS</a>]

00:17:50   you see though they would get you a list [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1070">TS</a>]

00:17:52   of features implement you don't need to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1072">TS</a>]

00:17:53   survey people and have them distribute a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1073">TS</a>]

00:17:55   hundred points and all these ridiculous [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1075">TS</a>]

00:17:56   esoteric features yeah people should [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1076">TS</a>]

00:18:00   follow the link and read the features [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1080">TS</a>]

00:18:02   like there they're picking it the these [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1082">TS</a>]

00:18:05   little you know fringes around the edges [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1085">TS</a>]

00:18:08   when the entire carpet is on fire I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1088">TS</a>]

00:18:09   don't then now I can't think of a good [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1089">TS</a>]

00:18:11   one you're too upset yeah all right so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1091">TS</a>]

00:18:17   do we have a topic for today's show we [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1097">TS</a>]

00:18:19   do you didn't you're not even looking at [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1099">TS</a>]

00:18:21   the I don't look anymore I just want I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1101">TS</a>]

00:18:23   just I'm on autopilot I'm doing it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1103">TS</a>]

00:18:25   myself I like you so you're surprised [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1105">TS</a>]

00:18:27   when you come in the show you want to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1107">TS</a>]

00:18:28   guess what the topic is didn't look at [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1108">TS</a>]

00:18:30   all [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1110">TS</a>]

00:18:31   well let me look at the look at these [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1111">TS</a>]

00:18:33   notes here I I put it on the yeah did [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1113">TS</a>]

00:18:38   you you put it in Big O in the top now I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1118">TS</a>]

00:18:41   haven't gone on the topics page but I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1121">TS</a>]

00:18:42   can look at these links yeah and you can [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1122">TS</a>]

00:18:45   guess I see the word Copeland about five [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1125">TS</a>]

00:18:48   or six times yeah and speaking of words [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1128">TS</a>]

00:18:50   that like you know you pronounce in your [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1130">TS</a>]

00:18:52   head it for a long time before you have [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1132">TS</a>]

00:18:54   to say them out loud so I read about [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1134">TS</a>]

00:18:55   this operating system for years and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1135">TS</a>]

00:18:57   years in my in my youth and I always [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1137">TS</a>]

00:19:00   pronounced it in my head Copland comp [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1140">TS</a>]

00:19:02   which is not how you pronounce it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1142">TS</a>]

00:19:03   because is named after the composer was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1143">TS</a>]

00:19:05   it Aaron Aaron Copland so I'm working [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1145">TS</a>]

00:19:07   really hard in the past decade or so to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1147">TS</a>]

00:19:09   say Copeland Copeland it's just a very [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1149">TS</a>]

00:19:11   with just a straightforward variable [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1151">TS</a>]

00:19:13   substitution you just need to run yeah [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1153">TS</a>]

00:19:15   it's working pretty well so far we'll [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1155">TS</a>]

00:19:17   see if I can get through this without [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1157">TS</a>]

00:19:18   slipping up so this is this is a great [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1158">TS</a>]

00:19:20   topic this is an awesome topic and let [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1160">TS</a>]

00:19:22   actually before we dive in because I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1162">TS</a>]

00:19:23   have a feeling that you're going to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1163">TS</a>]

00:19:24   you've got a lot to say about this one [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1164">TS</a>]

00:19:26   so before we start it let's do the first [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1166">TS</a>]

00:19:29   sponsor is that okay yeah all right so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1169">TS</a>]

00:19:32   we want to thank Rackspace do you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1172">TS</a>]

00:19:34   remember John back in February Rackspace [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1174">TS</a>]

00:19:36   asked if if listeners of this show and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1176">TS</a>]

00:19:39   other shows had what it takes to be king [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1179">TS</a>]

00:19:42   of the apps you remember that contest [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1182">TS</a>]

00:19:44   king of the apps vaguely okay so a whole [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1184">TS</a>]

00:19:46   bunch of people took up the challenge [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1186">TS</a>]

00:19:48   and basically was to create an [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1188">TS</a>]

00:19:50   application on top of Rackspace cloud [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1190">TS</a>]

00:19:52   files didn't matter what your [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1192">TS</a>]

00:19:53   application was and they're going to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1193">TS</a>]

00:19:56   give you $10,000 oh yeah now I remember [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1196">TS</a>]

00:19:58   okay did you apply did you do this I did [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1198">TS</a>]

00:20:00   not that would be conflict of interest [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1200">TS</a>]

00:20:02   I'd say go for it this time because it's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1202">TS</a>]

00:20:04   as round too anyway they announced it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1204">TS</a>]

00:20:06   snap appointments they were crowned king [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1206">TS</a>]

00:20:08   of the apps in at South by Southwest now [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1208">TS</a>]

00:20:11   round two you have to submit your app by [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1211">TS</a>]

00:20:13   May 2nd all you need to do is build an [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1213">TS</a>]

00:20:16   app that works on cloud files Rackspace [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1216">TS</a>]

00:20:18   cloud files it anything you can imagine [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1218">TS</a>]

00:20:20   as long as it uses that you could win [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1220">TS</a>]

00:20:22   10,000 bucks [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1222">TS</a>]

00:20:24   and the the winner will be announced [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1224">TS</a>]

00:20:25   dead Interop Las Vegas are you gonna be [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1225">TS</a>]

00:20:27   there not me no you're not going to as a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1227">TS</a>]

00:20:30   representative no ok that's your choice [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1230">TS</a>]

00:20:34   so anyway you can find out all the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1234">TS</a>]

00:20:35   details and find out how you could win [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1235">TS</a>]

00:20:37   $10,000 at Rackspace comm slash king of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1237">TS</a>]

00:20:41   the apps and their slogan for this is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1241">TS</a>]

00:20:44   showcase triumph defend I like that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1244">TS</a>]

00:20:50   10,000 but what would you do with 10,000 [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1250">TS</a>]

00:20:52   bucks if you just built you wrote a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1252">TS</a>]

00:20:54   little app and got 10 grand you know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1254">TS</a>]

00:20:57   what I would do with it it's the most [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1257">TS</a>]

00:20:59   boring answer ever but it's true [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1259">TS</a>]

00:21:01   buy more TiVo's no it goes right into [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1261">TS</a>]

00:21:03   the kids college fund that's a good [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1263">TS</a>]

00:21:05   thing to do with it better than TiVo [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1265">TS</a>]

00:21:07   yeah boring though so Copeland was I'll [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1267">TS</a>]

00:21:10   close the Wikipedia page Copeland was a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1270">TS</a>]

00:21:12   project at Apple computer to create an [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1272">TS</a>]

00:21:14   updated version of the Macintosh [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1274">TS</a>]

00:21:16   operating system was to have introduced [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1276">TS</a>]

00:21:19   protected memory pre-emptive [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1279">TS</a>]

00:21:21   multitasking and a number of new [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1281">TS</a>]

00:21:22   underlying operating system features yet [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1282">TS</a>]

00:21:25   still be compatible with existing Mac [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1285">TS</a>]

00:21:27   software you know this is not where I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1287">TS</a>]

00:21:30   that's not how I start things though I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1290">TS</a>]

00:21:31   know I always have to go back let's go [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1291">TS</a>]

00:21:34   back further but there's people who are [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1294">TS</a>]

00:21:36   going to say Copeland what do I care [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1296">TS</a>]

00:21:37   about Copeland for now at least I know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1297">TS</a>]

00:21:38   you're talking about there's a lot of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1298">TS</a>]

00:21:41   people that they dare their introduction [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1301">TS</a>]

00:21:43   even know what cup 1 to Mac OS 10 is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1303">TS</a>]

00:21:46   10.2 a lot of people just got their [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1306">TS</a>]

00:21:50   first MacBook you know I know well so I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1310">TS</a>]

00:21:53   mean it's so you don't want to take some [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1313">TS</a>]

00:21:55   back in now 1969 a Woodstock when you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1315">TS</a>]

00:21:59   know was was you know tripping out and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1319">TS</a>]

00:22:01   had an idea for something you know let [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1321">TS</a>]

00:22:02   give him a framework well I mean it's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1322">TS</a>]

00:22:05   alright so we'll come back to Copeland [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1325">TS</a>]

00:22:07   but I'll start from this is a talk [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1327">TS</a>]

00:22:10   that's about a series of articles I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1330">TS</a>]

00:22:11   wrote many years ago in 2005 and the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1331">TS</a>]

00:22:15   tight [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1335">TS</a>]

00:22:15   the article series was avoiding copeland [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1335">TS</a>]

00:22:17   2010 and it was written in 2005 so the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1337">TS</a>]

00:22:22   premise underlying this entire series of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1342">TS</a>]

00:22:25   arc was his articles is article was like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1345">TS</a>]

00:22:27   at a point it was trying to say you know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1347">TS</a>]

00:22:30   to predict the future and warned about [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1350">TS</a>]

00:22:31   something that can happen right so the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1351">TS</a>]

00:22:34   premise which i'm going to lay out now [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1354">TS</a>]

00:22:35   most people if you just give them the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1355">TS</a>]

00:22:37   premise in isolation agree with and you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1357">TS</a>]

00:22:39   know without even thinking about like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1359">TS</a>]

00:22:41   it's obviously everybody knows that it's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1361">TS</a>]

00:22:43   you know it's not worth even discussing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1363">TS</a>]

00:22:45   though we don't need to be explicit [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1365">TS</a>]

00:22:47   about this premise we all agree but when [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1367">TS</a>]

00:22:49   i'm done and i start trying to use that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1369">TS</a>]

00:22:53   premise to extrapolate and draw [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1373">TS</a>]

00:22:54   conclusions then people will come back [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1374">TS</a>]

00:22:56   and challenge the premise so we'll see [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1376">TS</a>]

00:22:57   if that happens with you here or any of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1377">TS</a>]

00:23:00   the listeners so the premise is that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1380">TS</a>]

00:23:04   abstraction increases over time in the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1384">TS</a>]

00:23:07   computer industry you could take off the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1387">TS</a>]

00:23:09   computer interesting qualifier just say [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1389">TS</a>]

00:23:10   abstract can increases over time period [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1390">TS</a>]

00:23:12   because it's sort of the basis of all [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1392">TS</a>]

00:23:14   human progress where it's systems built [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1394">TS</a>]

00:23:16   upon systems where someone figures after [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1396">TS</a>]

00:23:18   to do some small thing and then the next [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1398">TS</a>]

00:23:20   generation comes along and they figure [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1400">TS</a>]

00:23:21   out how to do something built on the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1401">TS</a>]

00:23:23   previous system because i don't have to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1403">TS</a>]

00:23:25   worry about that one it's been figured [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1405">TS</a>]

00:23:26   out so they could build something more [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1406">TS</a>]

00:23:27   complicated on top of it well in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1407">TS</a>]

00:23:29   computers that has sort of played out [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1409">TS</a>]

00:23:31   very very quickly much more quickly than [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1411">TS</a>]

00:23:33   just like all of human history where [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1413">TS</a>]

00:23:36   computers just came into existence you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1416">TS</a>]

00:23:38   know within a human lifetime or two and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1418">TS</a>]

00:23:41   we've gone so far since then so I'm [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1421">TS</a>]

00:23:44   going to speak specifically about [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1424">TS</a>]

00:23:45   programming computers what do you have [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1425">TS</a>]

00:23:47   to do to tell a computer what to do and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1427">TS</a>]

00:23:50   and this sort of briefly go through the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1430">TS</a>]

00:23:52   progression that's made so in the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1432">TS</a>]

00:23:53   beginning ignoring the phase where you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1433">TS</a>]

00:23:56   had just toggle switches and people were [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1436">TS</a>]

00:23:57   just you know flipping switches on and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1437">TS</a>]

00:23:58   off to enter binary in the beginning [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1438">TS</a>]

00:24:00   when you had program programmable [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1440">TS</a>]

00:24:01   computers people were programming with [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1441">TS</a>]

00:24:02   machine code which means you would enter [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1442">TS</a>]

00:24:05   basically just a series of ones and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1445">TS</a>]

00:24:06   zeros that would the computer would [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1446">TS</a>]

00:24:09   interpret as instructions you know this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1449">TS</a>]

00:24:11   this particular number means this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1451">TS</a>]

00:24:13   instruction and the next number is an [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1453">TS</a>]

00:24:15   address in the next number is a value is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1455">TS</a>]

00:24:17   so on and so forth that's how is it von [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1457">TS</a>]

00:24:20   Neumann machines am i pronouncing that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1460">TS</a>]

00:24:21   correctly I think so you see there von [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1461">TS</a>]

00:24:23   Neumann or no I'm on I don't know why go [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1463">TS</a>]

00:24:27   with Norman let's go with Norman anyway [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1467">TS</a>]

00:24:29   it's the idea [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1469">TS</a>]

00:24:29   of you have a big set of memory that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1469">TS</a>]

00:24:31   contains both your data and your [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1471">TS</a>]

00:24:33   instructions then you have a CPU that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1473">TS</a>]

00:24:34   reads from the program from memory and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1474">TS</a>]

00:24:37   excuse these instructions and back in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1477">TS</a>]

00:24:39   the day when people made the first [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1479">TS</a>]

00:24:40   computers that's how you would program [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1480">TS</a>]

00:24:42   it you have to put in the numbers that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1482">TS</a>]

00:24:43   the CPU would eat and perform the actual [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1483">TS</a>]

00:24:46   task now no one wants to just enter in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1486">TS</a>]

00:24:47   long strings of binary or hexadecimal or [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1487">TS</a>]

00:24:49   anything numbers because it's ridiculous [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1489">TS</a>]

00:24:51   so the next phase was assembly code [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1491">TS</a>]

00:24:53   where they gave you symbolic [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1493">TS</a>]

00:24:55   representations of these numbers where [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1495">TS</a>]

00:24:56   the instruction for you know moving a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1496">TS</a>]

00:24:59   value from one register to another we're [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1499">TS</a>]

00:25:01   just going to call that mov and you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1501">TS</a>]

00:25:02   don't have to remember that access on [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1502">TS</a>]

00:25:03   the number four and then your addresses [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1503">TS</a>]

00:25:05   you just you make up names for them and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1505">TS</a>]

00:25:07   then you prefer to those names in the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1507">TS</a>]

00:25:08   program and then an assembler would come [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1508">TS</a>]

00:25:10   in later and take your text [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1510">TS</a>]

00:25:11   representation and say okay mov that's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1511">TS</a>]

00:25:13   this instruction and you know this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1513">TS</a>]

00:25:15   symbolic name you know ax okay that's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1515">TS</a>]

00:25:17   the register this this is the value for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1517">TS</a>]

00:25:20   that register and you made up this name [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1520">TS</a>]

00:25:22   for this new memory address so I'll [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1522">TS</a>]

00:25:23   substitute that memory address for the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1523">TS</a>]

00:25:24   name um that was called assembly code [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1524">TS</a>]

00:25:26   and the assembler was the thing that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1526">TS</a>]

00:25:28   turned it into a machine code and then [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1528">TS</a>]

00:25:30   the CPU executed the machine code so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1530">TS</a>]

00:25:31   that's the first layer of abstraction [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1531">TS</a>]

00:25:32   where you didn't have to write the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1532">TS</a>]

00:25:34   machine code you wrote in this thing it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1534">TS</a>]

00:25:36   was little bit nicer humans then another [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1536">TS</a>]

00:25:37   program that someone wrote before you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1537">TS</a>]

00:25:39   would come and turn it into machine code [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1539">TS</a>]

00:25:41   um but that was still stuck run on a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1541">TS</a>]

00:25:44   single CPU because machine code only [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1544">TS</a>]

00:25:46   works on one particular CPU and assembly [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1546">TS</a>]

00:25:48   code turns into machine code that only [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1548">TS</a>]

00:25:49   works on one CPU so the next layer layer [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1549">TS</a>]

00:25:52   abstraction was portable languages where [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1552">TS</a>]

00:25:54   you could write a program and have it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1554">TS</a>]

00:25:55   execute on different CPUs because your [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1555">TS</a>]

00:25:58   compiler can pilot for them the most [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1558">TS</a>]

00:25:59   popular one of those is C where you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1559">TS</a>]

00:26:01   would write in the language C was called [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1561">TS</a>]

00:26:03   portable assembler is kind of a a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1563">TS</a>]

00:26:05   derogatory term but basically you write [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1565">TS</a>]

00:26:08   and you write in a more abstract form [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1568">TS</a>]

00:26:09   that the compiler compiles into [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1569">TS</a>]

00:26:12   basically machine code sometimes passing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1572">TS</a>]

00:26:15   through assembly on its way down for a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1575">TS</a>]

00:26:17   particular CPU so the same C program you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1577">TS</a>]

00:26:19   could compile for two different CPUs and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1579">TS</a>]

00:26:21   executed on two different CPUs in a wood [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1581">TS</a>]

00:26:23   run but in the end it was like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1583">TS</a>]

00:26:26   higher-level concepts or stuff that the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1586">TS</a>]

00:26:29   machine would understand so I had this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1589">TS</a>]

00:26:31   the concept of types where you know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1591">TS</a>]

00:26:34   you'd have integer types and character [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1594">TS</a>]

00:26:36   types and stuff like that they're all [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1596">TS</a>]

00:26:36   end up being numbers behind the scenes [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1596">TS</a>]

00:26:38   but these types would add constraints to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1598">TS</a>]

00:26:40   your program to make it make sure you're [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1600">TS</a>]

00:26:41   doing what you thought you were doing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1601">TS</a>]

00:26:43   and you had much more complicated [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1603">TS</a>]

00:26:44   statements where you'd have a single [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1604">TS</a>]

00:26:46   line of code that would result in many [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1606">TS</a>]

00:26:48   many many lines of assembly many many [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1608">TS</a>]

00:26:50   many lines of machine code in the end [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1610">TS</a>]

00:26:52   but you didn't have to write all those [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1612">TS</a>]

00:26:53   lines it would figure it out for you and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1613">TS</a>]

00:26:55   that phase lasted a long time where [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1615">TS</a>]

00:26:58   you're writing and see pascal those type [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1618">TS</a>]

00:26:59   of compiled languages there were various [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1619">TS</a>]

00:27:02   forms of you know portable assembly [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1622">TS</a>]

00:27:04   language where you'd write something [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1624">TS</a>]

00:27:06   that can run the many different [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1626">TS</a>]

00:27:07   architectures maybe that lasted until [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1627">TS</a>]

00:27:09   the nine user so that's that's a pretty [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1629">TS</a>]

00:27:11   long time we've gone from the first [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1631">TS</a>]

00:27:12   computer in the 60s all up the nineties [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1632">TS</a>]

00:27:14   and we haven't gotten that much farther [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1634">TS</a>]

00:27:15   along in abstraction but then around the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1635">TS</a>]

00:27:18   late 80s early 90s a lot of the research [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1638">TS</a>]

00:27:21   progress to accept done this before but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1641">TS</a>]

00:27:23   this was the first time that popular [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1643">TS</a>]

00:27:24   languages started being memory managed [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1644">TS</a>]

00:27:27   where they would move even farther away [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1647">TS</a>]

00:27:29   from assembly where they would basically [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1649">TS</a>]

00:27:31   write a little program called a virtual [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1651">TS</a>]

00:27:34   machine that would represent a computer [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1654">TS</a>]

00:27:36   didn't actually exist but that was much [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1656">TS</a>]

00:27:37   nicer to deal with than a CPU and then [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1657">TS</a>]

00:27:40   you would write programs to that virtual [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1660">TS</a>]

00:27:41   machine a virtual machine would compile [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1661">TS</a>]

00:27:43   those programs down to machine code in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1663">TS</a>]

00:27:44   the machine code would execute on the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1664">TS</a>]

00:27:45   actual CPU so one more layer up there [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1665">TS</a>]

00:27:49   the big the big difference and this is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1669">TS</a>]

00:27:50   there was no more a need for the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1670">TS</a>]

00:27:52   programmer to manage memory manually [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1672">TS</a>]

00:27:54   sometimes didn't have to deal with it at [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1674">TS</a>]

00:27:56   all they would just make variables they [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1676">TS</a>]

00:27:57   were pop into existence and disappear [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1677">TS</a>]

00:27:59   when they went out of scope you didn't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1679">TS</a>]

00:28:00   have to worry about where the memory [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1680">TS</a>]

00:28:01   came from where I was going or who still [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1681">TS</a>]

00:28:03   had references to it the virtual machine [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1683">TS</a>]

00:28:04   would take care of that for you and with [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1684">TS</a>]

00:28:08   that came the the ability for you to not [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1688">TS</a>]

00:28:11   worry about accidentally writing over [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1691">TS</a>]

00:28:13   arbitrary memory so with all the old [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1693">TS</a>]

00:28:15   models since all this got turned into it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1695">TS</a>]

00:28:17   eventually a memory address or whatever [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1697">TS</a>]

00:28:19   who if you ended up with a bad value [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1699">TS</a>]

00:28:21   when you do reference that it as an [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1701">TS</a>]

00:28:22   address then you just start scribbling [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1702">TS</a>]

00:28:23   wherever the heck you wanted in memory [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1703">TS</a>]

00:28:25   it was in your memory image anyway and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1705">TS</a>]

00:28:28   that would cause your program to crash [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1708">TS</a>]

00:28:30   while the virtual machine once it said [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1710">TS</a>]

00:28:32   no we're not going to give you any any [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1712">TS</a>]

00:28:33   facility in the programming language to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1713">TS</a>]

00:28:35   grab an address to memory based on some [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1715">TS</a>]

00:28:37   number and just start writing over it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1717">TS</a>]

00:28:38   it's just you're not able to do that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1718">TS</a>]

00:28:40   period of course the virtual machine [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1720">TS</a>]

00:28:42   itself was usually written in a language [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1722">TS</a>]

00:28:43   like C and eventually would take your [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1723">TS</a>]

00:28:46   program and convert it into machine code [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1726">TS</a>]

00:28:48   for the particular CPU that it's running [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1728">TS</a>]

00:28:50   on sometimes they would do that at [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1730">TS</a>]

00:28:51   runtime in fact and then [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1731">TS</a>]

00:28:52   execute so now we're like three layers [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1732">TS</a>]

00:28:54   up from maybe three or four layers up [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1734">TS</a>]

00:28:56   from the actual CPU and then around that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1736">TS</a>]

00:28:59   same time maybe a little bit later the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1739">TS</a>]

00:29:01   dynamic language started to become [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1741">TS</a>]

00:29:03   popular that that word really means [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1743">TS</a>]

00:29:04   nothing but what it really means is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1744">TS</a>]

00:29:06   languages that are memory managed but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1746">TS</a>]

00:29:10   have even fewer constraints than the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1750">TS</a>]

00:29:14   memory manage languages like Java or C [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1754">TS</a>]

00:29:16   sharp or anything like that one of the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1756">TS</a>]

00:29:18   things they threw away was that having [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1758">TS</a>]

00:29:20   to deal with types they said well it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1760">TS</a>]

00:29:21   will just figure that out for use [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1761">TS</a>]

00:29:23   there's no like integer types or you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1763">TS</a>]

00:29:25   know string types or anything you just [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1765">TS</a>]

00:29:27   have variables and we'll figure out what [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1767">TS</a>]

00:29:29   the type is for you we'll also figure [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1769">TS</a>]

00:29:30   out all the memory for you we'll build [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1770">TS</a>]

00:29:31   in some more nice stuff for you that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1771">TS</a>]

00:29:33   everybody wants to do anyway like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1773">TS</a>]

00:29:34   regular expressions and stuff like that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1774">TS</a>]

00:29:36   and we'll make it so that a lot of these [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1776">TS</a>]

00:29:39   things compiled when you ran them so you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1779">TS</a>]

00:29:41   didn't have to compile different [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1781">TS</a>]

00:29:42   executable and run the executable when [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1782">TS</a>]

00:29:43   you ran the thing it would compile it at [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1783">TS</a>]

00:29:45   that point and executed immediately [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1785">TS</a>]

00:29:46   and JavaScript is another example of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1786">TS</a>]

00:29:49   this and so this has been a long long [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1789">TS</a>]

00:29:53   road from like for example from [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1793">TS</a>]

00:29:54   JavaScript to machine code because now [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1794">TS</a>]

00:29:56   think about a modern JavaScript engine [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1796">TS</a>]

00:29:59   in a web browser right so you've got [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1799">TS</a>]

00:30:01   this language that doesn't have anything [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1801">TS</a>]

00:30:03   to do with memory or pointers or [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1803">TS</a>]

00:30:04   anything like that and that gets [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1804">TS</a>]

00:30:07   compiled on to usually some sort of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1807">TS</a>]

00:30:09   virtual machine in your browser which is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1809">TS</a>]

00:30:11   itself written in the language like C or [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1811">TS</a>]

00:30:13   C++ which ends up being compiled and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1813">TS</a>]

00:30:17   executing in machine code and sometimes [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1817">TS</a>]

00:30:19   even assembly on you know for the tight [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1819">TS</a>]

00:30:21   loops inside the JavaScript engines on [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1821">TS</a>]

00:30:23   your CPU so that's the big trail through [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1823">TS</a>]

00:30:27   what has happened to two programming [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1827">TS</a>]

00:30:29   languages over the years and how [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1829">TS</a>]

00:30:32   abstraction has increased over time I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1832">TS</a>]

00:30:33   don't think people would disagree with [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1833">TS</a>]

00:30:34   that you say to people writing assembly [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1834">TS</a>]

00:30:36   today yeah some people still write in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1836">TS</a>]

00:30:37   assembly sometimes like that guy who's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1837">TS</a>]

00:30:38   writing the JavaScript engine for your [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1838">TS</a>]

00:30:41   browser sometimes it is some particular [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1841">TS</a>]

00:30:42   tight loop inside the virtual machine [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1842">TS</a>]

00:30:45   that runs JavaScript you wanted to be [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1845">TS</a>]

00:30:46   super fasty baby you do it and assembly [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1846">TS</a>]

00:30:48   you know but the vast majority people [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1848">TS</a>]

00:30:51   are not writing an assembly versus you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1851">TS</a>]

00:30:52   know in the 60s and 70s you know you're [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1852">TS</a>]

00:30:55   writing an assembly if you were writing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1855">TS</a>]

00:30:57   you know like the original Mac operating [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1857">TS</a>]

00:30:58   system for example is mostly written in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1858">TS</a>]

00:30:59   assembly hard to believe but like the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1859">TS</a>]

00:31:01   first GUI operating system which were [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1861">TS</a>]

00:31:02   thinking I'm a super modern everything [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1862">TS</a>]

00:31:03   is absolutely filled with assembly [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1863">TS</a>]

00:31:05   especially for the apartment [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1865">TS</a>]

00:31:06   whereas nowadays very very small parts [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1866">TS</a>]

00:31:09   of the operating system are in assembly [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1869">TS</a>]

00:31:10   just a few keys tiny parts and most of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1870">TS</a>]

00:31:13   it or in a higher-level language and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1873">TS</a>]

00:31:15   things like websites no one's writing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1875">TS</a>]

00:31:16   websites and assembly you know no one's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1876">TS</a>]

00:31:18   writing websites in C++ unless they're [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1878">TS</a>]

00:31:20   crazy [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1880">TS</a>]

00:31:20   I guess think there's one or two people [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1880">TS</a>]

00:31:21   out there still doing that but uh but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1881">TS</a>]

00:31:23   the trend line is clear what are they [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1883">TS</a>]

00:31:25   teaching in in the universities these [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1885">TS</a>]

00:31:27   days what's the if you decide you want [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1887">TS</a>]

00:31:29   to do computer jobs man I mean it makes [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1889">TS</a>]

00:31:31   sense when I was when to date myself a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1891">TS</a>]

00:31:33   lot here when I was in college its [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1893">TS</a>]

00:31:36   Pascal you know they were switching from [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1896">TS</a>]

00:31:38   modular to Pascal and and like one of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1898">TS</a>]

00:31:41   the teachers was only doing Pascal and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1901">TS</a>]

00:31:44   to stay I guess to keep kosher with the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1904">TS</a>]

00:31:48   rest of the staff you could turn your [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1908">TS</a>]

00:31:50   assignments in in modular and he would [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1910">TS</a>]

00:31:52   allow that but only for the rest of the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1912">TS</a>]

00:31:54   semester [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1914">TS</a>]

00:31:55   well computer as the saying goes [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1915">TS</a>]

00:31:57   computer science has about as much to do [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1917">TS</a>]

00:31:58   with computers as astronomy has to do [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1918">TS</a>]

00:32:00   with telescopes so a lot of the things [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1920">TS</a>]

00:32:02   they're using using and teaching are to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1922">TS</a>]

00:32:05   teach you concepts of computer science [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1925">TS</a>]

00:32:07   which are more mathematical in nature [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1927">TS</a>]

00:32:08   and the fact that they have to use an [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1928">TS</a>]

00:32:10   actual language to teach you this is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1930">TS</a>]

00:32:11   almost like it's a kind of a shame [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1931">TS</a>]

00:32:13   because they would rather just you know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1933">TS</a>]

00:32:15   talk about it conceptually but I guess [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1935">TS</a>]

00:32:17   you got to write some sort of code that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1937">TS</a>]

00:32:18   excuse I'm not teaching you to be a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1938">TS</a>]

00:32:19   programmer as in as a trade they're [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1939">TS</a>]

00:32:21   trying to teach you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1941">TS</a>]

00:32:22   concepts the concepts of computer [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1942">TS</a>]

00:32:24   science and the particular language they [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1944">TS</a>]

00:32:26   use to do that it's not important but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1946">TS</a>]

00:32:27   within the industry that the trend line [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1947">TS</a>]

00:32:31   has been clear most working programmers [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1951">TS</a>]

00:32:32   are not working in assembly they're not [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1952">TS</a>]

00:32:34   working in machine code they're not even [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1954">TS</a>]

00:32:35   working and see like these days they're [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1955">TS</a>]

00:32:36   working in c-sharp Java you know took [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1956">TS</a>]

00:32:39   over a lot of the the bulk of the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1959">TS</a>]

00:32:41   programming market when it came out I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1961">TS</a>]

00:32:43   and lots of people now working in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1963">TS</a>]

00:32:44   dynamic languages like Ruby JavaScript [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1964">TS</a>]

00:32:46   Python stuff like that what are you work [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1966">TS</a>]

00:32:47   in most days can you say that because I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1967">TS</a>]

00:32:49   know you're soakin girl which will flip [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1969">TS</a>]

00:32:51   people out but believe it or not people [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1971">TS</a>]

00:32:53   still do that and I'll talk about my [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1973">TS</a>]

00:32:55   talk more about that at the end if I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1975">TS</a>]

00:32:56   have time Wow [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1976">TS</a>]

00:32:57   so no we're going to make time for that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1977">TS</a>]

00:32:58   yeah we can do a whole episode on that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1978">TS</a>]

00:33:00   you know actually helps probably have [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1980">TS</a>]

00:33:01   some good rants about that um can you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1981">TS</a>]

00:33:04   read your own Perl once you write it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1984">TS</a>]

00:33:05   of course I can okay yes most most [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1985">TS</a>]

00:33:08   people can't it's not true all right [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1988">TS</a>]

00:33:10   so that that is the premise and you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1990">TS</a>]

00:33:13   agree with it right but absolutely [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1993">TS</a>]

00:33:15   gotten more abstract absolutely and I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1995">TS</a>]

00:33:17   think this is a trend that's going to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1997">TS</a>]

00:33:19   reverse [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1999">TS</a>]

00:33:19   or level off or not continue I would say [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/1999">TS</a>]

00:33:23   it's either going to it's interesting [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2003">TS</a>]

00:33:26   because you the choices you gave me are [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2006">TS</a>]

00:33:28   is it going to to level off reverse or [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2008">TS</a>]

00:33:32   not continue my I think it's going to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2012">TS</a>]

00:33:35   continue I think it's going to maybe [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2015">TS</a>]

00:33:38   level off or continue keep continuing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2018">TS</a>]

00:33:40   alright so finally getting back to this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2020">TS</a>]

00:33:43   avoiding Copelan 2010 thing I'd be one [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2023">TS</a>]

00:33:45   more quick history oh my god so yeah I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2025">TS</a>]

00:33:48   know I was tough so back in the 90s [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2028">TS</a>]

00:33:51   Apple found itself kind of behind [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2031">TS</a>]

00:33:54   technically Steve Jobs wasn't there at [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2034">TS</a>]

00:33:56   this point he'd been kicked out into [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2036">TS</a>]

00:33:58   85-86 the company made a lot of money [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2038">TS</a>]

00:34:00   and in the late 80s early 90s by [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2040">TS</a>]

00:34:03   charging a lot for its hardware but as a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2043">TS</a>]

00:34:05   nineties started and Windows 95 was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2045">TS</a>]

00:34:07   looming and stuff their operating system [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2047">TS</a>]

00:34:09   was behind and it was behind technically [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2049">TS</a>]

00:34:12   and the two big things that had missed [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2052">TS</a>]

00:34:13   if you were nerd in his period of time [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2053">TS</a>]

00:34:14   you knew what Mac the classic Mac OS was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2054">TS</a>]

00:34:17   missing but the two big things that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2057">TS</a>]

00:34:18   admit that didn't have our memory [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2058">TS</a>]

00:34:20   protection and pre-emptive multitasking [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2060">TS</a>]

00:34:21   and those were super super important [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2061">TS</a>]

00:34:23   because people were tired of their Mac's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2063">TS</a>]

00:34:25   crashing memory protection is the thing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2065">TS</a>]

00:34:26   that prevented one program from [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2066">TS</a>]

00:34:27   scribbling over the memory of another [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2067">TS</a>]

00:34:29   program or over the memory of the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2069">TS</a>]

00:34:30   operating system and that was important [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2070">TS</a>]

00:34:32   because if you got a badly behaved [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2072">TS</a>]

00:34:33   application it would take out your whole [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2073">TS</a>]

00:34:34   Mac and you need to reboot and this was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2074">TS</a>]

00:34:36   increasingly common situation no it's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2076">TS</a>]

00:34:39   just fine but fine when you had 128k [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2079">TS</a>]

00:34:41   because what that can you do you got 128 [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2081">TS</a>]

00:34:43   k it's a miracle you can even get a GUI [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2083">TS</a>]

00:34:44   on the screen with 128 kilobytes of RAM [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2084">TS</a>]

00:34:47   an entire machine right but as the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2087">TS</a>]

00:34:49   machines got bigger and faster it became [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2089">TS</a>]

00:34:52   unacceptable to have this limitation and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2092">TS</a>]

00:34:54   the second one was pre-emptive [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2094">TS</a>]

00:34:55   multitasking pre-emptive multitasking [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2095">TS</a>]

00:34:56   allows the operating system to say all [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2096">TS</a>]

00:34:58   right program B you're done I'm going to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2098">TS</a>]

00:35:00   let program a run for a little while now [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2100">TS</a>]

00:35:01   okay now you can run again program being [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2101">TS</a>]

00:35:03   back and forth the operating system [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2103">TS</a>]

00:35:05   could preempt you could say you know get [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2105">TS</a>]

00:35:07   off the cpu it's time it's someone [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2107">TS</a>]

00:35:08   else's turn Mac OS again when you had [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2108">TS</a>]

00:35:11   128 kilobytes of RAM you didn't expect [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2111">TS</a>]

00:35:15   pre-emptive multitasking they just had [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2115">TS</a>]

00:35:17   it's an amazingly get it to run at all [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2117">TS</a>]

00:35:19   but they have what we called cooperative [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2119">TS</a>]

00:35:21   multitasking which is kind of like the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2121">TS</a>]

00:35:23   Patriot Act's one of those nice names [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2123">TS</a>]

00:35:24   who doesn't like to cooperate [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2124">TS</a>]

00:35:25   cooperative multitasking isn't that the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2125">TS</a>]

00:35:27   kinder and gentler kind of no it's not [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2127">TS</a>]

00:35:29   good because what it means is that if a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2129">TS</a>]

00:35:30   process gets the CPU it can only give [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2130">TS</a>]

00:35:33   voluntary [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2133">TS</a>]

00:35:33   gives the CPU up to another process [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2133">TS</a>]

00:35:35   which meant that any process could hog [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2135">TS</a>]

00:35:37   the entire CPU and no one else get any [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2137">TS</a>]

00:35:39   time and programs are notoriously bad [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2139">TS</a>]

00:35:42   about deciding that they don't need the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2142">TS</a>]

00:35:43   CPU anymore because that you're you're [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2143">TS</a>]

00:35:45   relying on them to share to say oh you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2145">TS</a>]

00:35:47   know that everyone should behave when [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2147">TS</a>]

00:35:48   you don't need to CPU give it up and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2148">TS</a>]

00:35:49   like do I need to see for you well and I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2149">TS</a>]

00:35:52   might need it I really want to give it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2152">TS</a>]

00:35:53   up right now let me just have one more [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2153">TS</a>]

00:35:55   loop and check for events okay and I'll [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2155">TS</a>]

00:35:56   give it up in a second you know it was a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2156">TS</a>]

00:35:57   bad situation that wasted the resources [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2157">TS</a>]

00:35:59   that you had there so programs would hog [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2159">TS</a>]

00:36:01   the CPU just in case they needed it or [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2161">TS</a>]

00:36:03   being some sort of busy loop burning [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2163">TS</a>]

00:36:05   through CPU cycles do they thought they [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2165">TS</a>]

00:36:06   were the only one running and other [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2166">TS</a>]

00:36:07   programs were out there starving because [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2167">TS</a>]

00:36:08   they're not being given cycles anymore [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2168">TS</a>]

00:36:10   alright so by the 90s it was clear that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2170">TS</a>]

00:36:14   you needed this stuff you didn't have [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2174">TS</a>]

00:36:16   this stuff you started to look like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2176">TS</a>]

00:36:17   creaky old crappy technology and for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2177">TS</a>]

00:36:19   reference or people who don't know every [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2179">TS</a>]

00:36:20   single modern operating system anywhere [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2180">TS</a>]

00:36:22   probably on wristwatches today has both [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2182">TS</a>]

00:36:23   of these speech they're super important [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2183">TS</a>]

00:36:25   but back then the Mac didn't have them [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2185">TS</a>]

00:36:27   and and so Apple's trying to figure out [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2187">TS</a>]

00:36:30   how do we get these we know we need to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2190">TS</a>]

00:36:32   have these and like every year that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2192">TS</a>]

00:36:33   passes it's getting more and more [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2193">TS</a>]

00:36:34   embarrassing that we don't have them [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2194">TS</a>]

00:36:36   every time someone has to reboot their [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2196">TS</a>]

00:36:37   Mac and we get those little chimes going [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2197">TS</a>]

00:36:38   off during in the office and people are [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2198">TS</a>]

00:36:40   complaining because things are freezing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2200">TS</a>]

00:36:42   you know we got to do this so they tried [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2202">TS</a>]

00:36:45   like seven different plans about how [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2205">TS</a>]

00:36:46   we're gonna get these things to our [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2206">TS</a>]

00:36:48   operating system so the problem is to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2208">TS</a>]

00:36:50   add them you didn't want to like make it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2210">TS</a>]

00:36:53   so none of your existing apps worked [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2213">TS</a>]

00:36:55   anymore [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2215">TS</a>]

00:36:56   you can't like here's a brand new [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2216">TS</a>]

00:36:57   operating system and none year old apps [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2217">TS</a>]

00:36:58   work but hey guys you'll you'll come [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2218">TS</a>]

00:37:00   onboard right we won't lose any [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2220">TS</a>]

00:37:02   customers because of this now that was a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2222">TS</a>]

00:37:04   bad scene they needed to bring existing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2224">TS</a>]

00:37:07   customers along and make sure their apps [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2227">TS</a>]

00:37:08   still ran otherwise it's like you're [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2228">TS</a>]

00:37:09   starting a whole new company from [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2229">TS</a>]

00:37:10   scratch and just leaving your old [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2230">TS</a>]

00:37:11   customers behind that that was not going [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2231">TS</a>]

00:37:14   to fly but retrofitting can we take [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2234">TS</a>]

00:37:16   existing Mac operating system and add [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2236">TS</a>]

00:37:17   these features well the problem was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2237">TS</a>]

00:37:20   every single existing iMac application [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2240">TS</a>]

00:37:22   including the operating system itself [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2242">TS</a>]

00:37:24   expected to be able to read any memory [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2244">TS</a>]

00:37:26   wanted and they were all you know in one [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2246">TS</a>]

00:37:27   big giant stoop together they expected [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2247">TS</a>]

00:37:30   to be able to hog the CPU they just you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2250">TS</a>]

00:37:31   know they ran in this type of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2251">TS</a>]

00:37:33   environment and if you change the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2253">TS</a>]

00:37:35   environment on them every single app [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2255">TS</a>]

00:37:36   would break so how do we let these guys [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2256">TS</a>]

00:37:37   think that they can actually scribble [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2257">TS</a>]

00:37:38   all over memory and read memory from [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2258">TS</a>]

00:37:40   other applications one of my favorite [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2260">TS</a>]

00:37:42   classic Mac applications was uh so if I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2262">TS</a>]

00:37:45   had a document or so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2265">TS</a>]

00:37:47   that I was editing and accidentally [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2267">TS</a>]

00:37:48   closed the window without saving there [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2268">TS</a>]

00:37:50   was an application that would search [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2270">TS</a>]

00:37:52   through all memory in the entire machine [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2272">TS</a>]

00:37:54   for uh you know a string or something [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2274">TS</a>]

00:37:57   and so if I accidentally closed a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2277">TS</a>]

00:37:59   program or something and I wanted text [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2279">TS</a>]

00:38:01   back that was in that I could use this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2281">TS</a>]

00:38:02   thing to sort of scram really all memory [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2282">TS</a>]

00:38:04   in the entire machine and find the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2284">TS</a>]

00:38:05   document that was previously in memory [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2285">TS</a>]

00:38:07   because those pages still hadn't been [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2287">TS</a>]

00:38:08   overwritten well and this was not a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2288">TS</a>]

00:38:10   special privilege program this is a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2290">TS</a>]

00:38:12   program that any person can run so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2292">TS</a>]

00:38:13   really memory was just an open green [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2293">TS</a>]

00:38:15   field that any any person any program [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2295">TS</a>]

00:38:17   any anything could just go rummaging [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2297">TS</a>]

00:38:19   through and this is what applications [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2299">TS</a>]

00:38:21   expected and some of them actually took [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2301">TS</a>]

00:38:22   advantage of it so you couldn't just [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2302">TS</a>]

00:38:24   apply these strictures because literally [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2304">TS</a>]

00:38:26   every single program would break and so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2306">TS</a>]

00:38:28   they had many failed efforts to try to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2308">TS</a>]

00:38:30   do this that this talent effort with IBM [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2310">TS</a>]

00:38:32   like let's make a brand-new operating [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2312">TS</a>]

00:38:34   system will partner with IBM and it'll [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2314">TS</a>]

00:38:35   be so awesome people won't care they'll [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2315">TS</a>]

00:38:37   jump ship from the Mac and leave all [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2317">TS</a>]

00:38:38   their all the apps behinds and come with [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2318">TS</a>]

00:38:39   us the Copeland project we just talked [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2319">TS</a>]

00:38:44   about which is like well we'll make a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2324">TS</a>]

00:38:45   new operating system that kind of like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2325">TS</a>]

00:38:47   the old one and we'll try to get most of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2327">TS</a>]

00:38:49   the benefits of memory protection [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2329">TS</a>]

00:38:50   programs email - but will have the other [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2330">TS</a>]

00:38:52   mode where the old apps can run in the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2332">TS</a>]

00:38:54   old apps will still be able to crash the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2334">TS</a>]

00:38:55   whole operating system because they have [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2335">TS</a>]

00:38:56   to be able to because they need to see a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2336">TS</a>]

00:38:57   whole memory but we the new apps [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2337">TS</a>]

00:38:59   wouldn't and we try to gradually bring [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2339">TS</a>]

00:39:01   people over to the new apps they never [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2341">TS</a>]

00:39:02   shipped that it didn't work out it was a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2342">TS</a>]

00:39:04   big mess and at the point where they [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2344">TS</a>]

00:39:07   were killing that project or it's like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2347">TS</a>]

00:39:09   look we spent all these years on this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2349">TS</a>]

00:39:10   thing it's still not panning out they're [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2350">TS</a>]

00:39:11   like fine we just had to buy something [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2351">TS</a>]

00:39:12   we gotta like we got to find something [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2352">TS</a>]

00:39:14   out there and buy it so they look they [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2354">TS</a>]

00:39:16   were gonna buy a company being [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2356">TS</a>]

00:39:18   cooperated just started by an X Apple [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2358">TS</a>]

00:39:20   guy because they had this great new [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2360">TS</a>]

00:39:22   operating system that was if you ran B [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2362">TS</a>]

00:39:25   OS on on the existing Apple Harbor the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2365">TS</a>]

00:39:26   day would make the Apple hardware look [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2366">TS</a>]

00:39:27   amazingly fast you're like yeah that's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2367">TS</a>]

00:39:29   like their operating system already runs [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2369">TS</a>]

00:39:31   on our hardware and it's way faster than [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2371">TS</a>]

00:39:32   ours and it's way cooler and it's got a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2372">TS</a>]

00:39:33   lot of buzz let's buy them but they [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2373">TS</a>]

00:39:35   wanted like six hundred million dollars [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2375">TS</a>]

00:39:36   and Apple didn't want to pay it they [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2376">TS</a>]

00:39:38   looked everywhere they considered [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2378">TS</a>]

00:39:40   licensing the Windows NT kernel I think [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2380">TS</a>]

00:39:41   one of the history books that I read on [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2381">TS</a>]

00:39:43   this was talking about talking to the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2383">TS</a>]

00:39:45   executives who were at Apple the time [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2385">TS</a>]

00:39:46   can you imagine that that was that was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2386">TS</a>]

00:39:48   one of Apple's plans and it wasn't just [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2388">TS</a>]

00:39:49   like an outlier that was like of the top [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2389">TS</a>]

00:39:52   three choices that was up there like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2392">TS</a>]

00:39:54   let's license the Windows NT kernel from [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2394">TS</a>]

00:39:55   Microsoft and use that as a next [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2395">TS</a>]

00:39:57   generation hopping system and who knows [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2397">TS</a>]

00:39:58   maybe we'll be able to run Windows apps [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2398">TS</a>]

00:40:00   to that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2400">TS</a>]

00:40:00   could be a benefit for a company right [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2400">TS</a>]

00:40:02   in the end we know what they actually [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2402">TS</a>]

00:40:04   did they ended up buying a next and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2404">TS</a>]

00:40:06   Steve Jobs and the rest is history they [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2406">TS</a>]

00:40:08   got you know two great things there but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2408">TS</a>]

00:40:12   the reason I bring this up is I'm going [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2412">TS</a>]

00:40:13   to compare it to what Microsoft did [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2413">TS</a>]

00:40:14   Microsoft had the same exact problem [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2414">TS</a>]

00:40:16   because they had a crappy operating [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2416">TS</a>]

00:40:17   system with you know they even worse [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2417">TS</a>]

00:40:19   problems I had segmented memory and all [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2419">TS</a>]

00:40:20   sorts of crazy x86 Intel stuff to deal [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2420">TS</a>]

00:40:23   with and their programs expected to be [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2423">TS</a>]

00:40:25   able to read all over the place too so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2425">TS</a>]

00:40:26   but what they did is they had a plan [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2426">TS</a>]

00:40:28   that was a long long multi-year plan and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2428">TS</a>]

00:40:31   they executed on it much better than [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2431">TS</a>]

00:40:33   Apple they didn't go in 20 different [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2433">TS</a>]

00:40:34   directions they went in one direction [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2434">TS</a>]

00:40:35   and did it slowly so they introduced [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2435">TS</a>]

00:40:37   Windows NT in like 1993 and it wasn't a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2437">TS</a>]

00:40:41   replacement for the existing Windows it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2441">TS</a>]

00:40:42   was this other thing that was like it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2442">TS</a>]

00:40:44   was a modern OS it had lost all those [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2444">TS</a>]

00:40:46   modern features that you expected to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2446">TS</a>]

00:40:48   have and it had a backward compatibility [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2448">TS</a>]

00:40:49   layer actually had a layer where you can [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2449">TS</a>]

00:40:51   run POSIX programs order like UNIX [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2451">TS</a>]

00:40:53   programs it had a layer where you can [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2453">TS</a>]

00:40:54   run os/2 programs because I hear os/2 is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2454">TS</a>]

00:40:56   the next big thing and IBM is backing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2456">TS</a>]

00:40:57   even there they're a giant in the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2457">TS</a>]

00:40:58   industry and you could run win32 and win [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2458">TS</a>]

00:41:01   16 programs on it - and what was nice [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2461">TS</a>]

00:41:03   about this was that it they never gave [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2463">TS</a>]

00:41:05   you this promise that everything was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2465">TS</a>]

00:41:07   going to work perfectly because it was a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2467">TS</a>]

00:41:09   different operating system and it was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2469">TS</a>]

00:41:10   intended for different audiences a whole [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2470">TS</a>]

00:41:13   different user base was going to be [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2473">TS</a>]

00:41:14   using NT so they weren't it wasn't like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2474">TS</a>]

00:41:16   the consumer operating system released [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2476">TS</a>]

00:41:18   going from you know 95 to 98 ME or [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2478">TS</a>]

00:41:21   whatever they could do things they could [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2481">TS</a>]

00:41:23   afford to do things a little bit [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2483">TS</a>]

00:41:24   differently yeah so for example the the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2484">TS</a>]

00:41:27   hardware requirements of NT were way [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2487">TS</a>]

00:41:28   higher than the consumer OS and and it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2488">TS</a>]

00:41:30   was slower and it would run most your [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2490">TS</a>]

00:41:32   apps slower if you had legacy apps and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2492">TS</a>]

00:41:33   it was just this big complicated bloated [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2493">TS</a>]

00:41:36   enterprise-e thing that they were not [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2496">TS</a>]

00:41:37   selling to the average pcs were not [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2497">TS</a>]

00:41:39   shipping with Windows NT U in them but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2499">TS</a>]

00:41:40   it slowly started to filter its way into [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2500">TS</a>]

00:41:42   corporations for like servers another [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2502">TS</a>]

00:41:43   serious Hardware right but this was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2503">TS</a>]

00:41:45   important because it gave Microsoft's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2505">TS</a>]

00:41:47   next-generation operating system a place [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2507">TS</a>]

00:41:49   to grow up a place to say alright this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2509">TS</a>]

00:41:51   is gonna be a little bit creepy and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2511">TS</a>]

00:41:52   weird at first and it might be bugging [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2512">TS</a>]

00:41:53   we can't quite figure it out and it's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2513">TS</a>]

00:41:55   got these really high hardware [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2515">TS</a>]

00:41:56   requirements and it's slow and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2516">TS</a>]

00:41:57   everything but you know enterprise [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2517">TS</a>]

00:41:59   developers enterprise customers can deal [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2519">TS</a>]

00:42:01   with that and they have servers they're [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2521">TS</a>]

00:42:03   going to spend the money on good [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2523">TS</a>]

00:42:03   hardware anyway so you know they figured [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2523">TS</a>]

00:42:07   let's let's let's go with this and let [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2527">TS</a>]

00:42:09   it sort of grow there someone when the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2529">TS</a>]

00:42:12   chat rooms bring up the whole os/2 thing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2532">TS</a>]

00:42:13   with IBM and how Windows [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2533">TS</a>]

00:42:14   he was a sort of betrayal of that plan [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2534">TS</a>]

00:42:16   this I don't want to get too far into [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2536">TS</a>]

00:42:17   the history there's a lot of intrigue [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2537">TS</a>]

00:42:19   involving this but I said we're just [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2539">TS</a>]

00:42:20   going to pick them up the horses that we [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2540">TS</a>]

00:42:21   know eventually won so what happened is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2541">TS</a>]

00:42:25   that Windows NT grew in that little [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2545">TS</a>]

00:42:27   protected environment of the enterprise [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2547">TS</a>]

00:42:29   through several versions and eventually [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2549">TS</a>]

00:42:31   when the time was right [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2551">TS</a>]

00:42:32   Microsoft did the big switcheroo and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2552">TS</a>]

00:42:34   they said okay our next version of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2554">TS</a>]

00:42:35   Windows you know the one that comes on [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2555">TS</a>]

00:42:36   your PC that you buy in the store that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2556">TS</a>]

00:42:38   the kind of windows our next version of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2558">TS</a>]

00:42:40   real Windows is going to have windows NT [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2560">TS</a>]

00:42:42   at the core and Windows 2000 was the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2562">TS</a>]

00:42:44   first one to do that it was still kind [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2564">TS</a>]

00:42:46   of like a corporate type operating [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2566">TS</a>]

00:42:47   system but home users were running [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2567">TS</a>]

00:42:49   Windows 2000 eventually where you buy a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2569">TS</a>]

00:42:51   PC and it would say hey this comes with [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2571">TS</a>]

00:42:52   the great new Windows 2000 and by that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2572">TS</a>]

00:42:54   point they had wrung out most of the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2574">TS</a>]

00:42:56   issues in terms of 132 and 116 [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2576">TS</a>]

00:42:58   compatibility and stuff like that and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2578">TS</a>]

00:42:59   most applications had been updated to be [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2579">TS</a>]

00:43:01   you know when NT savvy or whatever you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2581">TS</a>]

00:43:03   want to call it so it was it was time [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2583">TS</a>]

00:43:05   for the transition and Windows XP was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2585">TS</a>]

00:43:08   the the Big Bang where like even if you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2588">TS</a>]

00:43:09   had an upgraded Windows 2000 by the time [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2589">TS</a>]

00:43:11   XP came along which was also based in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2591">TS</a>]

00:43:12   the Windows NT core everybody had [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2592">TS</a>]

00:43:14   Windows XP in fact it's probably still [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2594">TS</a>]

00:43:16   on your PC right now if you didn't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2596">TS</a>]

00:43:17   upgrade to Windows 7 because nobody used [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2597">TS</a>]

00:43:19   Vista so that was their transition [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2599">TS</a>]

00:43:22   strategy was very different than apples [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2602">TS</a>]

00:43:24   it was a really long term plan where [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2604">TS</a>]

00:43:25   they had this thing on the back burner [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2605">TS</a>]

00:43:26   for a long time but it took them that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2606">TS</a>]

00:43:28   long to get you know the issues sorted [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2608">TS</a>]

00:43:29   out now [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2609">TS</a>]

00:43:31   I bring this up because this this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2611">TS</a>]

00:43:33   struggle to modernize that Mac operating [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2613">TS</a>]

00:43:35   system almost killed Apple it almost [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2615">TS</a>]

00:43:36   killed the entire company there are many [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2616">TS</a>]

00:43:38   things that almost killed it you know in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2618">TS</a>]

00:43:40   terms of pricing and hardware and just [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2620">TS</a>]

00:43:43   bad lack of leadership and too many [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2623">TS</a>]

00:43:45   products and stuff like that but the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2625">TS</a>]

00:43:46   technical issues especially for a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2626">TS</a>]

00:43:47   computer company I would say are at [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2627">TS</a>]

00:43:48   least 50% of what almost killed Apple [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2628">TS</a>]

00:43:50   they did not have a competitive product [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2630">TS</a>]

00:43:52   and they didn't know how to fix it and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2632">TS</a>]

00:43:53   the markets saw that and saw that them [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2633">TS</a>]

00:43:55   saw them drowning and waving their hands [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2635">TS</a>]

00:43:57   in the air and saying we have a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2637">TS</a>]

00:43:58   technical problem we are not competent [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2638">TS</a>]

00:44:00   to fix it it every year announced a new [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2640">TS</a>]

00:44:01   plan and then we canceled the plan then [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2641">TS</a>]

00:44:03   we try another plan and we canceled that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2643">TS</a>]

00:44:04   one and investors don't like that and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2644">TS</a>]

00:44:05   investors tanked that the stock everyone [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2645">TS</a>]

00:44:07   else at Apple I think they're going [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2647">TS</a>]

00:44:09   under I mean even if you didn't know why [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2649">TS</a>]

00:44:10   even if you didn't know anything about [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2650">TS</a>]

00:44:12   Apple doesn't have memory protection and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2652">TS</a>]

00:44:14   pre-emptive multitasking you knew they [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2654">TS</a>]

00:44:15   were flailing you knew they were trying [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2655">TS</a>]

00:44:17   to look for some next generation thing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2657">TS</a>]

00:44:18   to do and they were not figuring it out [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2658">TS</a>]

00:44:20   and you know they almost died the only [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2660">TS</a>]

00:44:22   thing that saved them was getting that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2662">TS</a>]

00:44:24   that trio of things a jobs next in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2664">TS</a>]

00:44:26   Moore's law because I got the man job [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2666">TS</a>]

00:44:28   who's going to be their leader for the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2668">TS</a>]

00:44:29   future they got a software our UNIX you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2669">TS</a>]

00:44:31   know the next base the operating system [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2671">TS</a>]

00:44:33   which would have UNIX underneath it and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2673">TS</a>]

00:44:34   all what modern stuff in it and they got [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2674">TS</a>]

00:44:37   the hardware to run at all Moore's law [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2677">TS</a>]

00:44:38   eventually made max fast enough where [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2678">TS</a>]

00:44:39   they could take that UNIX operating [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2679">TS</a>]

00:44:41   system and run it on their hardware with [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2681">TS</a>]

00:44:44   these you know the blue blocks for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2684">TS</a>]

00:44:45   backward compatibility with Mac [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2685">TS</a>]

00:44:46   applications and you finally have enough [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2686">TS</a>]

00:44:48   RAM to do all that stuff these are [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2688">TS</a>]

00:44:49   solutions that maybe weren't feasible in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2689">TS</a>]

00:44:51   the early days but became feasible when [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2691">TS</a>]

00:44:53   the harbor caught up with it and then in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2693">TS</a>]

00:44:54   the end you know Mac OS 10 10.0 was slow [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2694">TS</a>]

00:44:57   as molasses anyway and still was a tough [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2697">TS</a>]

00:44:59   sell if it wasn't for jobs you know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2699">TS</a>]

00:45:00   pressing it and saying well you know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2700">TS</a>]

00:45:01   this Mac OS 10 thing is pretty crappy [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2701">TS</a>]

00:45:03   but look shiny and Steve Jobs is pretty [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2703">TS</a>]

00:45:06   cool you know took years to get that up [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2706">TS</a>]

00:45:08   speed but this crisis did almost kill [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2708">TS</a>]

00:45:10   the company now the point of the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2710">TS</a>]

00:45:13   avoiding Copeland 2010 article was is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2713">TS</a>]

00:45:16   there another crisis like this this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2716">TS</a>]

00:45:18   Copeland crisis I called the köppen [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2718">TS</a>]

00:45:20   crisis because Copeland was the you know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2720">TS</a>]

00:45:23   the most well known project that was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2723">TS</a>]

00:45:25   going to save apple from its crappy [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2725">TS</a>]

00:45:27   operating system and it's the one that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2727">TS</a>]

00:45:28   cratered right so is there some sort of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2728">TS</a>]

00:45:31   crisis like this looming in Apple's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2731">TS</a>]

00:45:32   future now the new apples on its feet [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2732">TS</a>]

00:45:34   it's got Mac OS 10 everything settled [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2734">TS</a>]

00:45:37   doesn't have to worry about that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2737">TS</a>]

00:45:37   pre-emptive multitasking memory [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2737">TS</a>]

00:45:39   protection stuff anymore it's it's got [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2739">TS</a>]

00:45:40   all these other you know great things [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2740">TS</a>]

00:45:42   going on but is there another crisis [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2742">TS</a>]

00:45:44   like this a technical crisis in Apple's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2744">TS</a>]

00:45:46   future that that they have to worry [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2746">TS</a>]

00:45:49   about and my conclusion in the article [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2749">TS</a>]

00:45:51   was that yes there is a problem like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2751">TS</a>]

00:45:53   that lurking out in Apple's future and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2753">TS</a>]

00:45:55   it's a type of problem where just like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2755">TS</a>]

00:45:58   the operating system problem it doesn't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2758">TS</a>]

00:45:59   seem to be a good solution for and the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2759">TS</a>]

00:46:00   problem is that what Apple lacks now [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2760">TS</a>]

00:46:03   that they will eventually need is a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2763">TS</a>]

00:46:05   memory managed language and API for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2765">TS</a>]

00:46:07   programming Mac applications because as [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2767">TS</a>]

00:46:10   we all know Mac applications today are [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2770">TS</a>]

00:46:11   written Objective C which is a C based [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2771">TS</a>]

00:46:14   language which uses pointers and all [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2774">TS</a>]

00:46:15   that good stuff and the API is built for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2775">TS</a>]

00:46:18   Objective C and it links to a lot of C [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2778">TS</a>]

00:46:20   libraries and your programming and C [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2780">TS</a>]

00:46:23   basically and the reason I think this is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2783">TS</a>]

00:46:24   a problem is because like we just went [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2784">TS</a>]

00:46:26   through the abstraction of programming [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2786">TS</a>]

00:46:29   languages increases over time and I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2789">TS</a>]

00:46:31   don't think that's going to stop I don't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2791">TS</a>]

00:46:33   think that's ever going to stop and so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2793">TS</a>]

00:46:34   you're in a situation where Apple is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2794">TS</a>]

00:46:36   using a C based language but everybody [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2796">TS</a>]

00:46:38   else on the desktop platforms is not [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2798">TS</a>]

00:46:40   everybody else too [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2800">TS</a>]

00:46:41   because some you know took a look at [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2801">TS</a>]

00:46:43   what they had and executed on a plan to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2803">TS</a>]

00:46:45   change so you had Java which sort of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2805">TS</a>]

00:46:47   came out of nowhere for set-top boxes [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2807">TS</a>]

00:46:48   and took over the entire enterprise [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2808">TS</a>]

00:46:50   software industry that was you know hey [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2810">TS</a>]

00:46:52   everybody stop programming C++ with [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2812">TS</a>]

00:46:54   pointers start programming job and no [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2814">TS</a>]

00:46:55   pointers right and that just swept [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2815">TS</a>]

00:46:57   through like crazy and you had Microsoft [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2817">TS</a>]

00:46:59   which again [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2819">TS</a>]

00:47:00   to to its credit had a multi-year really [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2820">TS</a>]

00:47:03   complicated plan to to get away from [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2823">TS</a>]

00:47:05   what they were programming which was C [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2825">TS</a>]

00:47:06   and C++ they came up with this common [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2826">TS</a>]

00:47:08   language runtime which was like a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2828">TS</a>]

00:47:09   virtual machine that sort of learned [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2829">TS</a>]

00:47:11   from the mistakes of the Java Virtual [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2831">TS</a>]

00:47:12   Machine or if you want to be less [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2832">TS</a>]

00:47:14   charitable copy the Java Virtual Machine [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2834">TS</a>]

00:47:16   and made a few tweaks here in there and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2836">TS</a>]

00:47:18   change the letters but either way I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2838">TS</a>]

00:47:19   think they learn from mistakes of the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2839">TS</a>]

00:47:21   JVM and did something better than they [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2841">TS</a>]

00:47:23   did c-sharp which again if you want to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2843">TS</a>]

00:47:25   be unkind say it's just a bad clone of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2845">TS</a>]

00:47:26   Java but they took what Java had done [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2846">TS</a>]

00:47:29   learned from Javas mistakes made a new [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2849">TS</a>]

00:47:31   language called C sharp that looked a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2851">TS</a>]

00:47:32   little more like C and had its own [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2852">TS</a>]

00:47:34   unique features and then they revised [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2854">TS</a>]

00:47:35   like crazy they made C sharp they [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2855">TS</a>]

00:47:37   version the language and just kept [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2857">TS</a>]

00:47:38   coming out with new versions of XI sharp [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2858">TS</a>]

00:47:40   that were better and better and had more [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2860">TS</a>]

00:47:41   and more features tutor try to make them [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2861">TS</a>]

00:47:42   you know more palatable to programmers [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2862">TS</a>]

00:47:45   and c-sharp ran on the common language [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2865">TS</a>]

00:47:47   runtime and then finally they have a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2867">TS</a>]

00:47:48   dotnet api's which were a new set of API [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2868">TS</a>]

00:47:51   is not the old one 32 80s but a brand [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2871">TS</a>]

00:47:53   new set of API is tailored for a modern [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2873">TS</a>]

00:47:55   memory managed language to run on a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2875">TS</a>]

00:47:56   common language runtime that was going [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2876">TS</a>]

00:47:58   to replace you know every part of their [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2878">TS</a>]

00:48:01   old thing their old c c++ base 132 win [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2881">TS</a>]

00:48:03   16 MFC all those things were going to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2883">TS</a>]

00:48:05   replace relays not net api's and this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2885">TS</a>]

00:48:07   this process has tooken has taken many [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2887">TS</a>]

00:48:10   many many years and tons of Rd and lots [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2890">TS</a>]

00:48:12   of money and lots of really smart people [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2892">TS</a>]

00:48:13   because you can't just flip a switch and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2893">TS</a>]

00:48:15   get this stuff like they invented a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2895">TS</a>]

00:48:16   virtual machine a language and a new API [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2896">TS</a>]

00:48:18   for their platform and they're still [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2898">TS</a>]

00:48:20   doing it they're still in the process of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2900">TS</a>]

00:48:21   trying to transition people away from [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2901">TS</a>]

00:48:22   1:32 and stuff like that so it you know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2902">TS</a>]

00:48:24   it's not like you can't just start this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2904">TS</a>]

00:48:27   and then be done within a year this this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2907">TS</a>]

00:48:29   initiative from Microsoft is taking [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2909">TS</a>]

00:48:30   about five years seven ten it's a long [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2910">TS</a>]

00:48:34   time this point they're still not done [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2914">TS</a>]

00:48:35   with it so what I was looking for is how [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2915">TS</a>]

00:48:39   is Apple going to match this because [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2919">TS</a>]

00:48:41   they're still back on a sea-based [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2921">TS</a>]

00:48:42   language and as far as I knew at the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2922">TS</a>]

00:48:44   time in 2005 they didn't have a plan to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2924">TS</a>]

00:48:47   say here's how we're going to move away [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2927">TS</a>]

00:48:48   from objective-c [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2928">TS</a>]

00:48:49   you know here's our next language in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2929">TS</a>]

00:48:52   runtime so in back in 2005 I considered [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2932">TS</a>]

00:48:54   the alternatives [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2934">TS</a>]

00:48:55   so what are the possibilities what can [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2935">TS</a>]

00:48:57   they do one of the possibilities is all [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2937">TS</a>]

00:49:00   right so pick one of those other [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2940">TS</a>]

00:49:01   languages pick Java or C sharp or some [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2941">TS</a>]

00:49:03   well you know there's plenty of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2943">TS</a>]

00:49:03   languages out there that are memory [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2943">TS</a>]

00:49:04   manage languages why don't you just use [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2944">TS</a>]

00:49:06   one of those you don't need to invent [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2946">TS</a>]

00:49:07   your own language even back then it was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2947">TS</a>]

00:49:10   kind of clear to me that Apple really [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2950">TS</a>]

00:49:13   was not into using some depending on [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2953">TS</a>]

00:49:15   someone for something that important [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2955">TS</a>]

00:49:16   this was even before it was this before [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2956">TS</a>]

00:49:19   Safari I don't know but it is before [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2959">TS</a>]

00:49:21   Apple had decided not to use GCC anymore [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2961">TS</a>]

00:49:23   and it wanted its own compiler before [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2963">TS</a>]

00:49:25   Apple didn't want flash on its platform [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2965">TS</a>]

00:49:26   you know before all of these things it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2966">TS</a>]

00:49:29   was already clear that Apple did not [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2969">TS</a>]

00:49:30   want to be dependent on someone else [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2970">TS</a>]

00:49:32   they wouldn't want to pick Java for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2972">TS</a>]

00:49:33   example because now like you're holding [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2973">TS</a>]

00:49:34   to Sun and I sure as hell would want to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2974">TS</a>]

00:49:36   pick c-sharp because now you're [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2976">TS</a>]

00:49:37   beholding the Microsoft report that one [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2977">TS</a>]

00:49:39   range you know and maybe they could do [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2979">TS</a>]

00:49:41   an embrace and extend where they just [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2981">TS</a>]

00:49:42   take Java or C sharp and extend it and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2982">TS</a>]

00:49:45   give it a new name and just start [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2985">TS</a>]

00:49:46   developing on their own but Apple the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2986">TS</a>]

00:49:48   apple of 2005 was not yet ready to do [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2988">TS</a>]

00:49:50   that type of thing like where they just [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2990">TS</a>]

00:49:52   said great that's an open source thing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2992">TS</a>]

00:49:53   or that's an open standard we're just [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2993">TS</a>]

00:49:54   going to take that and you know rename [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2994">TS</a>]

00:49:58   it call it you know Apple something or [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/2998">TS</a>]

00:50:00   other and just go off in our own [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3000">TS</a>]

00:50:01   direction and we will take full [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3001">TS</a>]

00:50:02   responsibility for development of it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3002">TS</a>]

00:50:05   the other possibility I thought of was a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3005">TS</a>]

00:50:08   objective-c with garbage collection at [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3008">TS</a>]

00:50:10   that point garbage collection was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3010">TS</a>]

00:50:11   clearly telegraphed as something Apple [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3011">TS</a>]

00:50:13   was looking into it right I kind of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3013">TS</a>]

00:50:16   rejected that one as well just because [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3016">TS</a>]

00:50:17   garbage collection means you don't have [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3017">TS</a>]

00:50:19   to deal with manual memory management [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3019">TS</a>]

00:50:20   but it still means that when you're [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3020">TS</a>]

00:50:23   programming you're like one bad pointer [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3023">TS</a>]

00:50:24   dereference away from scribbling all [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3024">TS</a>]

00:50:26   over memory like it doesn't change the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3026">TS</a>]

00:50:27   nature of the language it just makes it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3027">TS</a>]

00:50:29   so you probably don't have to deal with [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3029">TS</a>]

00:50:30   the memory management yourself but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3030">TS</a>]

00:50:31   you're still like down there at the Bell [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3031">TS</a>]

00:50:33   net bare metal and you're still writing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3033">TS</a>]

00:50:34   and portable assembly and you still have [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3034">TS</a>]

00:50:37   all those things that make CC you know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3037">TS</a>]

00:50:39   you've got all that the casting and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3039">TS</a>]

00:50:41   there's the node that to their type [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3041">TS</a>]

00:50:43   system and there's no native strings in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3043">TS</a>]

00:50:46   the native collection classes it's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3046">TS</a>]

00:50:47   portable assembly and garbage collection [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3047">TS</a>]

00:50:48   doesn't change that about the language [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3048">TS</a>]

00:50:50   and the final thing was bridges so you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3050">TS</a>]

00:50:55   had things where you could take some [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3055">TS</a>]

00:50:56   other higher-level language and Bridget [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3056">TS</a>]

00:50:59   to objective-c so spy Objective C Ruby [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3059">TS</a>]

00:51:01   cocoa JRuby yeah [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3061">TS</a>]

00:51:04   camel bones no one knows what camel [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3064">TS</a>]

00:51:06   bones that was a pearl bridge to gogo I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3066">TS</a>]

00:51:08   think slowly but there [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3068">TS</a>]

00:51:09   bridges all it's not like I mentioned [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3069">TS</a>]

00:51:10   Jerry that's that's one of the big ones [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3070">TS</a>]

00:51:12   now and they're actually in some cases [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3072">TS</a>]

00:51:13   getting better performance out of the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3073">TS</a>]

00:51:15   bridges than they are but do use bridges [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3075">TS</a>]

00:51:17   well so here's what I say about bridges [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3077">TS</a>]

00:51:19   or what I said back then in my opinion [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3079">TS</a>]

00:51:21   really hasn't changed I even if you are [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3081">TS</a>]

00:51:23   writing in a higher-level language the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3083">TS</a>]

00:51:26   API that you're writing to is still [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3086">TS</a>]

00:51:27   built for a lower-level language so you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3087">TS</a>]

00:51:30   spend a lot of time building up [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3090">TS</a>]

00:51:31   structures that make absolutely no sense [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3091">TS</a>]

00:51:33   in the higher-level language just to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3093">TS</a>]

00:51:34   appease the API that was written for the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3094">TS</a>]

00:51:36   lower-level language and and you're not [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3096">TS</a>]

00:51:38   using any of the unique features of the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3098">TS</a>]

00:51:40   higher-level language you know what I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3100">TS</a>]

00:51:42   mean [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3102">TS</a>]

00:51:42   where if your high-level language [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3102">TS</a>]

00:51:43   supports you know arbitrary collections [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3103">TS</a>]

00:51:46   of stuff because it's got a native array [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3106">TS</a>]

00:51:47   class or it's got you know a native [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3107">TS</a>]

00:51:49   associative array structure you're still [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3109">TS</a>]

00:51:51   building NS dictionaries to pass down to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3111">TS</a>]

00:51:53   some function or whatever which is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3113">TS</a>]

00:51:54   ridiculous because that's all its entire [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3114">TS</a>]

00:51:56   other layer of abstraction that you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3116">TS</a>]

00:51:58   don't need because I look I've already [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3118">TS</a>]

00:52:00   got I've already got something that's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3120">TS</a>]

00:52:01   like a dictionary it's part of my [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3121">TS</a>]

00:52:02   language why are you making me build [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3122">TS</a>]

00:52:03   this object to pet all it's because your [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3123">TS</a>]

00:52:05   API is written for Objective C not for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3125">TS</a>]

00:52:07   my thing um [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3127">TS</a>]

00:52:08   and the unique features of the language [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3128">TS</a>]

00:52:09   like the most least high level languages [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3129">TS</a>]

00:52:11   have support for closures and especially [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3131">TS</a>]

00:52:13   in a time of you before blocks or [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3133">TS</a>]

00:52:14   whatever it's like well can I pass you a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3134">TS</a>]

00:52:17   closure and you can oh no none of our [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3137">TS</a>]

00:52:18   api's will ever expect expect to be [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3138">TS</a>]

00:52:20   passed the closure because we don't have [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3140">TS</a>]

00:52:21   closures because you're writing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3141">TS</a>]

00:52:22   something that's written in Objective C [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3142">TS</a>]

00:52:23   and I don't care if you have a closure [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3143">TS</a>]

00:52:25   and you know Ruby or Python or something [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3145">TS</a>]

00:52:27   like this we're not going to take your [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3147">TS</a>]

00:52:28   lamb doesn't do anything with them [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3148">TS</a>]

00:52:29   because we have no idea what they are so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3149">TS</a>]

00:52:30   even though you're using a high-level [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3150">TS</a>]

00:52:32   language you're not using a higher-level [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3152">TS</a>]

00:52:33   language and the final thing is that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3153">TS</a>]

00:52:35   it's not perceived as native you know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3155">TS</a>]

00:52:37   writing programs in this you're just not [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3157">TS</a>]

00:52:39   writing to the native API so you'd [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3159">TS</a>]

00:52:41   always have these people like oh that's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3161">TS</a>]

00:52:42   fine and good you want to write your [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3162">TS</a>]

00:52:43   thing in PI Objective C but I'm writing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3163">TS</a>]

00:52:45   in the native language of the of the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3165">TS</a>]

00:52:46   platform and online will always be [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3166">TS</a>]

00:52:48   better and faster now you know even if [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3168">TS</a>]

00:52:50   you win some minor benchmarks I'm [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3170">TS</a>]

00:52:52   writing real live native cocoa [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3172">TS</a>]

00:52:53   applications and you're using a bridge [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3173">TS</a>]

00:52:55   so it's got that stigma attached to it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3175">TS</a>]

00:53:01   Copland yes so you want to sponsor [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3181">TS</a>]

00:53:05   before yeah yeah yeah because here are [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3185">TS</a>]

00:53:06   you ready to get to the meat of this yes [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3186">TS</a>]

00:53:09   finally it's only been you know an hour [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3189">TS</a>]

00:53:12   I try to go as fast as I can all right [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3192">TS</a>]

00:53:14   all right so we'd also like to thank [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3194">TS</a>]

00:53:15   Shopify dot-com now we've sold the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3195">TS</a>]

00:53:17   t-shirts for 5x5 but there's a whole lot [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3197">TS</a>]

00:53:21   more that you can sell [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3201">TS</a>]

00:53:23   Shopify we barely scratched the surface [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3203">TS</a>]

00:53:25   of what it can do it's it's really the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3205">TS</a>]

00:53:27   absolute best way to sell anything [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3207">TS</a>]

00:53:29   online it's got a super clean design [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3209">TS</a>]

00:53:31   makes setting up the store incredibly [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3211">TS</a>]

00:53:34   easy every single store from from square [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3214">TS</a>]

00:53:36   one no matter what level what plan [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3216">TS</a>]

00:53:38   you're on they all come with beautiful [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3218">TS</a>]

00:53:40   themes to choose from or you can design [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3220">TS</a>]

00:53:42   your own 100% customizable you want to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3222">TS</a>]

00:53:44   use your own HTML and CSS and make it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3224">TS</a>]

00:53:46   look exactly like the rest of your site [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3226">TS</a>]

00:53:48   you can do that or you can pick one of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3228">TS</a>]

00:53:51   their designs and spend zero time and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3231">TS</a>]

00:53:53   their designs are pretty awesome there's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3233">TS</a>]

00:53:56   a 30 day free trial which is nice but if [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3236">TS</a>]

00:53:59   you use the code five by five you'll get [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3239">TS</a>]

00:54:02   three months for free [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3242">TS</a>]

00:54:04   that's pretty nice so anyway these guys [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3244">TS</a>]

00:54:07   are the absolute best and people say oh [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3247">TS</a>]

00:54:10   well that's great if you want to sell [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3250">TS</a>]

00:54:11   t-shirts you want to sell physical goods [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3251">TS</a>]

00:54:13   and things like that but I just want to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3253">TS</a>]

00:54:15   do electronic stuff I want to sell [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3255">TS</a>]

00:54:16   licenses or I want to sell you know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3256">TS</a>]

00:54:18   something that's a purely digital well [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3258">TS</a>]

00:54:21   they can do that there there are plugins [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3261">TS</a>]

00:54:23   there are add-ons there are features for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3263">TS</a>]

00:54:25   this and you can even write your own if [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3265">TS</a>]

00:54:27   you're if you are a software developer [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3267">TS</a>]

00:54:28   you can write your own add-on some [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3268">TS</a>]

00:54:30   plugins and fully-integrated customize [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3270">TS</a>]

00:54:32   it do whatever you want to do see a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3272">TS</a>]

00:54:34   really great stuff so shopping minutes [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3274">TS</a>]

00:54:36   of business for life check them out [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3276">TS</a>]

00:54:38   Shopify com use code 5x5 three months [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3278">TS</a>]

00:54:42   for free check out fig here's what I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3282">TS</a>]

00:54:46   would do John I would say if you don't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3286">TS</a>]

00:54:48   have something that you think of that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3288">TS</a>]

00:54:49   you want to sell today go sign up and by [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3289">TS</a>]

00:54:53   the time you're through the sign up [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3293">TS</a>]

00:54:54   you'll be building a store and you'll [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3294">TS</a>]

00:54:55   just figure it out you'll figure out [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3295">TS</a>]

00:54:56   something to sell love these guys there [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3296">TS</a>]

00:55:02   did you unplug and replug I did okay I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3302">TS</a>]

00:55:05   always do my new system so it seems like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3305">TS</a>]

00:55:09   finally we can talk about the topic of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3309">TS</a>]

00:55:12   the show well that was part of it was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3312">TS</a>]

00:55:14   the warning that there was this this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3314">TS</a>]

00:55:15   this Coplin like crisis looming and that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3315">TS</a>]

00:55:18   I didn't feel in 2005 that Apple had any [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3318">TS</a>]

00:55:21   answer to it like what the heck were [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3321">TS</a>]

00:55:23   they going to do right um so I had that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3323">TS</a>]

00:55:26   when I had to think of a title for that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3326">TS</a>]

00:55:27   series it was it was going to be [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3327">TS</a>]

00:55:29   avoiding Copeland and then I was going [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3329">TS</a>]

00:55:30   to put in a year which was going to say [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3330">TS</a>]

00:55:32   like avoiding a Copeland like situation [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3332">TS</a>]

00:55:34   coming in the year X [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3334">TS</a>]

00:55:36   and this was 2005 and 2007 it was a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3336">TS</a>]

00:55:40   round number you know because of the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3340">TS</a>]

00:55:41   arthur c clarke angle and everything [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3341">TS</a>]

00:55:43   like that in part two of the series I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3343">TS</a>]

00:55:44   actually said that I thought 2010 was a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3344">TS</a>]

00:55:46   bit early but I didn't want to use a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3346">TS</a>]

00:55:48   date that was really far off in the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3348">TS</a>]

00:55:49   future because people brains just switch [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3349">TS</a>]

00:55:51   off when you when you hear really [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3351">TS</a>]

00:55:52   distant dates like if I called it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3352">TS</a>]

00:55:54   avoiding Copeland 2010 or 2020 or [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3354">TS</a>]

00:55:56   something through like 2020 that's so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3356">TS</a>]

00:55:57   far away who cares about that you know I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3357">TS</a>]

00:55:59   had to use a year that was close enough [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3359">TS</a>]

00:56:01   that people felt people felt that it was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3361">TS</a>]

00:56:04   a pressing issue so I couldn't pick [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3364">TS</a>]

00:56:06   something really far away all right but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3366">TS</a>]

00:56:08   so 2010 rolls around and I thought it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3368">TS</a>]

00:56:11   was time for me to revisit the topic [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3371">TS</a>]

00:56:12   because I wrote this series of articles [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3372">TS</a>]

00:56:14   that was warning about something bad [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3374">TS</a>]

00:56:15   that was going to happen I use 2010 in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3375">TS</a>]

00:56:17   the title and here we are in 2010 so how [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3377">TS</a>]

00:56:20   did it turn out it's time so I hold [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3380">TS</a>]

00:56:21   myself accountable for these you know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3381">TS</a>]

00:56:23   these dire predictions about horrible [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3383">TS</a>]

00:56:24   things so so what happened well here's I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3384">TS</a>]

00:56:29   started out that what happened the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3389">TS</a>]

00:56:30   article which is in the show notes with [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3390">TS</a>]

00:56:33   recapping the assumptions from the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3393">TS</a>]

00:56:35   original series and the assumptions were [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3395">TS</a>]

00:56:36   just three of them one that fully [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3396">TS</a>]

00:56:38   automatic memory management will [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3398">TS</a>]

00:56:39   eventually be an expected feature of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3399">TS</a>]

00:56:41   desktop application development that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3401">TS</a>]

00:56:44   like this is something that everyone [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3404">TS</a>]

00:56:45   just can expect to have when they're [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3405">TS</a>]

00:56:46   writing desktop apps too is that the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3406">TS</a>]

00:56:48   rest of the energy will have that will [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3408">TS</a>]

00:56:49   have this by 2010 ever the rest of you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3409">TS</a>]

00:56:52   industry will have memory management API [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3412">TS</a>]

00:56:54   is in fully automatic memory management [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3414">TS</a>]

00:56:55   in their in their development [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3415">TS</a>]

00:56:57   environment and the third one was that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3417">TS</a>]

00:56:59   existing technologies in 2005 and any [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3419">TS</a>]

00:57:01   sort of obvious evolutions of them [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3421">TS</a>]

00:57:03   didn't fit the bill for what Apple [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3423">TS</a>]

00:57:05   needed to fix their problem so those are [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3425">TS</a>]

00:57:08   my three premises ok so here's what [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3428">TS</a>]

00:57:11   happened first premise that that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3431">TS</a>]

00:57:14   everyone is going to have automatic [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3434">TS</a>]

00:57:16   memory management for the desktop OS [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3436">TS</a>]

00:57:17   applications I think that's pretty much [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3437">TS</a>]

00:57:18   panned out there's not too many [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3438">TS</a>]

00:57:22   platforms it's just Windows and Apple [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3442">TS</a>]

00:57:23   and a couple other esoteric things but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3443">TS</a>]

00:57:25   for the most part yet if you ask [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3445">TS</a>]

00:57:26   Microsoft I'm going to write a Windows [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3446">TS</a>]

00:57:28   application what should I write with [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3448">TS</a>]

00:57:29   they're going to say you see sharp [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3449">TS</a>]

00:57:30   Usenet use our new API use a new memory [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3450">TS</a>]

00:57:32   manage language that's how you write one [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3452">TS</a>]

00:57:33   to other applications so that that one [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3453">TS</a>]

00:57:35   panned out I and you know and I think [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3455">TS</a>]

00:57:40   it's in a kind of an expected feature [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3460">TS</a>]

00:57:41   like you're writing an application [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3461">TS</a>]

00:57:42   that's kind of what you expect I think [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3462">TS</a>]

00:57:44   when when developers new to iOS come [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3464">TS</a>]

00:57:46   along and they realize this in this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3466">TS</a>]

00:57:47   funky language like objective-c I'll try [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3467">TS</a>]

00:57:49   that out and they realize [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3469">TS</a>]

00:57:49   they got a retaining release their own [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3469">TS</a>]

00:57:51   memory a lot of them are like huh you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3471">TS</a>]

00:57:52   know I'm coming off years as a Java [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3472">TS</a>]

00:57:54   developer or whatever and this is kind [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3474">TS</a>]

00:57:56   of like going backwards to me but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3476">TS</a>]

00:57:57   whatever you know I'll keep going you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3477">TS</a>]

00:57:59   know developer iOS because that's where [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3479">TS</a>]

00:58:01   the money is or whatever but I think [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3481">TS</a>]

00:58:02   that expectation is in there for most [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3482">TS</a>]

00:58:04   developers who have who have lived [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3484">TS</a>]

00:58:06   elsewhere who have not been in the Apple [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3486">TS</a>]

00:58:08   camp forever and just accepted as the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3488">TS</a>]

00:58:10   way it is is that if you're writing a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3490">TS</a>]

00:58:12   GUI application at this point in time [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3492">TS</a>]

00:58:14   people just don't expect to be having to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3494">TS</a>]

00:58:16   deal with with memory manually they just [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3496">TS</a>]

00:58:18   you know and I think Java is the big one [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3498">TS</a>]

00:58:21   to change that because so many [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3501">TS</a>]

00:58:22   developers use Java for so long and it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3502">TS</a>]

00:58:25   really just got everybody out of the C++ [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3505">TS</a>]

00:58:26   thing and the only people using C were [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3506">TS</a>]

00:58:27   like device driver writers and stuff and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3507">TS</a>]

00:58:30   then the final thing was that there were [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3510">TS</a>]

00:58:32   no existing technologies that Apple [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3512">TS</a>]

00:58:33   could sort of latch on to to get them [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3513">TS</a>]

00:58:35   out of their rut and I don't know if [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3515">TS</a>]

00:58:36   there were or not but the bottom line is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3516">TS</a>]

00:58:38   that here we are in 2010 and when you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3518">TS</a>]

00:58:39   want to write a Mac OS 10 application [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3519">TS</a>]

00:58:41   Apple says use Objective C and Objective [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3521">TS</a>]

00:58:43   C is still objective-c and they've [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3523">TS</a>]

00:58:45   enhanced it in many ways but it's still [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3525">TS</a>]

00:58:46   C based language it's still sort of the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3526">TS</a>]

00:58:48   same as it ever was in terms of you know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3528">TS</a>]

00:58:52   memory safety and the API that's that's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3532">TS</a>]

00:58:54   tailored to it but the important thing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3534">TS</a>]

00:58:57   that happened that it was not accounted [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3537">TS</a>]

00:58:59   for in 2005 series is a little thing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3539">TS</a>]

00:59:01   called the iPhone in iOS [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3541">TS</a>]

00:59:02   mmm 2005 maybe that was a glimmer in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3542">TS</a>]

00:59:05   somebody's eye and I remember I'm uh [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3545">TS</a>]

00:59:07   back at an old job we used to have a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3547">TS</a>]

00:59:09   whiteboard where we were predict what [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3549">TS</a>]

00:59:11   was going to be announced at witc or mac [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3551">TS</a>]

00:59:13   world where we'd all put our predictions [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3553">TS</a>]

00:59:15   then we get points for you know who got [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3555">TS</a>]

00:59:16   what right and I was writing iPhone on [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3556">TS</a>]

00:59:18   that board for years before you know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3558">TS</a>]

00:59:19   years before Apple had a phone or even [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3559">TS</a>]

00:59:21   talked about a phone or whatever I just [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3561">TS</a>]

00:59:23   wrote the word iPhone on there and every [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3563">TS</a>]

00:59:24   year was disappoint that there for years [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3564">TS</a>]

00:59:26   like nope no iPhone this year you know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3566">TS</a>]

00:59:27   then they came out with it and I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3567">TS</a>]

00:59:29   actually called it iPhone which was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3569">TS</a>]

00:59:30   something that nobody expected I thought [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3570">TS</a>]

00:59:31   was just that placeholder but but back [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3571">TS</a>]

00:59:33   then no one was thinking about that so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3573">TS</a>]

00:59:35   now iOS came along and mobile [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3575">TS</a>]

00:59:39   development developing for these little [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3579">TS</a>]

00:59:40   tiny dinky things has sort of pushed [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3580">TS</a>]

00:59:42   back the the urgency of this problem [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3582">TS</a>]

00:59:46   because basically the hardware regressed [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3586">TS</a>]

00:59:47   now we have these amazing Mac's now that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3587">TS</a>]

00:59:49   are just ridiculously fast enough huge [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3589">TS</a>]

00:59:52   amounts of memory but people are writing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3592">TS</a>]

00:59:54   applications for iOS devices which have [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3594">TS</a>]

00:59:56   a fraction of the memory in a tiny [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3596">TS</a>]

00:59:58   fraction of the CPU power and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3598">TS</a>]

00:59:58   fraction of the CPU power and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3598">TS</a>]

01:00:00   you know you know the they don't want to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3600">TS</a>]

01:00:01   use all the CPU carbs that burns your [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3601">TS</a>]

01:00:03   battery too much you know so you can't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3603">TS</a>]

01:00:05   like flash for example if a flash ran [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3605">TS</a>]

01:00:07   fast enough on a desktop or on an iOS [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3607">TS</a>]

01:00:10   device but like I find it runs fast [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3610">TS</a>]

01:00:11   enough but if it burns your battery down [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3611">TS</a>]

01:00:12   you're like no no stop running I don't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3612">TS</a>]

01:00:14   care that you run fast enough you I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3614">TS</a>]

01:00:15   don't want flash on this device because [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3615">TS</a>]

01:00:16   it burns my battery down so there's all [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3616">TS</a>]

01:00:17   these new constraints that make it so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3617">TS</a>]

01:00:19   that all the advantages of objective-c [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3619">TS</a>]

01:00:22   which people in a chat room I'm sure [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3622">TS</a>]

01:00:24   then talking about while we've been [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3624">TS</a>]

01:00:27   chatting here all the advantages of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3627">TS</a>]

01:00:28   objective-c are suddenly given a new [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3628">TS</a>]

01:00:29   lease on life Objective C is faster than [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3629">TS</a>]

01:00:31   these virtual machine-based language is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3631">TS</a>]

01:00:33   closer to the metal there's less [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3633">TS</a>]

01:00:35   overhead there's no virtual machine [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3635">TS</a>]

01:00:36   running in the background you can you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3636">TS</a>]

01:00:38   can you know manage your memory manually [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3638">TS</a>]

01:00:40   down to the byte so you you know you're [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3640">TS</a>]

01:00:41   using exactly what you want and all of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3641">TS</a>]

01:00:43   these advantages which became much less [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3643">TS</a>]

01:00:45   important on a Mac with 4 gigabytes of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3645">TS</a>]

01:00:46   RAM and a 3 gigahertz 8 core CPU [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3646">TS</a>]

01:00:49   suddenly become really important on a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3649">TS</a>]

01:00:50   tiny little iOS device with in the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3650">TS</a>]

01:00:52   beginning was it a 128 megabytes ram 512 [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3652">TS</a>]

01:00:56   megabytes some religious as well but to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3656">TS</a>]

01:00:59   the original the original iPhone I think [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3659">TS</a>]

01:01:01   the original iPhone was 128 128 no [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3661">TS</a>]

01:01:03   kidding something like that I don't know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3663">TS</a>]

01:01:05   what Kapiti would know but and then so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3665">TS</a>]

01:01:06   the CPU is like less than a gigahertz [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3666">TS</a>]

01:01:08   dinky little in order or cores that just [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3668">TS</a>]

01:01:10   you know have no cpu power compared to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3670">TS</a>]

01:01:13   what was available on a desktop and so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3673">TS</a>]

01:01:15   that was like hey you know we're using [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3675">TS</a>]

01:01:16   reusing objective-c and guess what it's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3676">TS</a>]

01:01:18   awesome that's why we're faster than [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3678">TS</a>]

01:01:19   everybody that's why we're bettering and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3679">TS</a>]

01:01:21   if we had changed your memory manage [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3681">TS</a>]

01:01:22   language there's no way we'd be getting [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3682">TS</a>]

01:01:23   like c-sharp or net on here and even [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3683">TS</a>]

01:01:25   Android trying to bring Java onto it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3685">TS</a>]

01:01:27   like well we're gonna have a native SDK [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3687">TS</a>]

01:01:28   too if you want to do games and stuff [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3688">TS</a>]

01:01:30   because we know those are too slow and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3690">TS</a>]

01:01:31   Java so suddenly this this thing it was [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3691">TS</a>]

01:01:34   a problem for Apple it's got a new lease [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3694">TS</a>]

01:01:35   on life hey you know everyone's happy [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3695">TS</a>]

01:01:37   again don't worry about it guys you know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3697">TS</a>]

01:01:38   we the subject you see turned out to be [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3698">TS</a>]

01:01:40   great move didn't it well I don't think [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3700">TS</a>]

01:01:42   I don't think that was a strategy I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3702">TS</a>]

01:01:43   think they had no alternative but what [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3703">TS</a>]

01:01:45   you know what I'm going to say is I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3705">TS</a>]

01:01:47   that's that's all well and good but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3707">TS</a>]

01:01:48   they're kind of back in the same [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3708">TS</a>]

01:01:50   situation they or maybe they reset the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3710">TS</a>]

01:01:52   clock a little bit but that trend line [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3712">TS</a>]

01:01:54   of more abstraction over time is not [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3714">TS</a>]

01:01:56   going away even though there's a little [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3716">TS</a>]

01:01:57   bump in the road here that trend line [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3717">TS</a>]

01:01:58   keeps going and at this point they're [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3718">TS</a>]

01:02:00   kind of in the same situation on the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3720">TS</a>]

01:02:02   mobile platform because don't all the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3722">TS</a>]

01:02:03   other mobile platforms such as they are [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3723">TS</a>]

01:02:05   offering manage memory manage language [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3725">TS</a>]

01:02:08   and API I could be right for Android you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3728">TS</a>]

01:02:09   right in their little you know Java [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3729">TS</a>]

01:02:11   dalvik VM thing I don't call [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3731">TS</a>]

01:02:12   for licensing reasons but you write your [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3732">TS</a>]

01:02:15   applications in Java and Windows Phone I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3735">TS</a>]

01:02:17   think they want you to write in c-sharp [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3737">TS</a>]

01:02:18   or maybe they'll let you write in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3738">TS</a>]

01:02:20   Silverlight even or whatever then you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3740">TS</a>]

01:02:21   have things like palm with the webOS [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3741">TS</a>]

01:02:22   where you're writing in like JavaScript [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3742">TS</a>]

01:02:24   and web technologies all those are [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3744">TS</a>]

01:02:26   memory manage language and API so here's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3746">TS</a>]

01:02:27   apple without a memory manage language [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3747">TS</a>]

01:02:29   an API on the mobile platform and right [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3749">TS</a>]

01:02:32   now I think it's still an advantage for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3752">TS</a>]

01:02:34   them because their devices are faster [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3754">TS</a>]

01:02:35   better have better battery life and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3755">TS</a>]

01:02:36   everything like that but everyone else [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3756">TS</a>]

01:02:38   has not it chosen to go with that like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3758">TS</a>]

01:02:40   they have some sort of native SDK where [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3760">TS</a>]

01:02:42   you can do games and stuff but they're [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3762">TS</a>]

01:02:43   trying to say no if you're right if [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3763">TS</a>]

01:02:44   you're writing a GUI application for our [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3764">TS</a>]

01:02:46   mobile OS use this memory manage [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3766">TS</a>]

01:02:48   language used as memory manage API and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3768">TS</a>]

01:02:50   is that why they're slower now maybe but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3770">TS</a>]

01:02:53   you know sometimes being slower pays off [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3773">TS</a>]

01:02:56   in the long run like Mac OS 10 in courts [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3776">TS</a>]

01:02:59   where their their display layer was much [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3779">TS</a>]

01:03:00   lower than everybody else especially in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3780">TS</a>]

01:03:01   the early days but it pays off when the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3781">TS</a>]

01:03:03   hardware finally caught up to it now [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3783">TS</a>]

01:03:04   they don't have to do it through this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3784">TS</a>]

01:03:05   painful revision of the display layer [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3785">TS</a>]

01:03:07   like Microsoft has been going through [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3787">TS</a>]

01:03:08   you know getting rid of GDI and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3788">TS</a>]

01:03:09   replacing it with whatever the heck [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3789">TS</a>]

01:03:10   their acronyms is that replaces GDI so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3790">TS</a>]

01:03:13   when FX I know maybe some of the chat [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3793">TS</a>]

01:03:15   room knows but this if they're having a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3795">TS</a>]

01:03:18   long painful process of changing their [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3798">TS</a>]

01:03:19   display layer from the old version to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3799">TS</a>]

01:03:21   the new version whereas Apple shipped [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3801">TS</a>]

01:03:23   Mac OS 10 with a sort of next-generation [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3803">TS</a>]

01:03:24   display layer from day one it was slow [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3804">TS</a>]

01:03:26   as molasses but eventually the Arbour [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3806">TS</a>]

01:03:29   caught up and now Apple sitting pretty [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3809">TS</a>]

01:03:30   and Microsoft still struggling the chat [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3810">TS</a>]

01:03:32   room says WPF will windows presentation [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3812">TS</a>]

01:03:34   foundation I think that's a multiple use [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3814">TS</a>]

01:03:37   acronym where it applies to both the API [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3817">TS</a>]

01:03:38   and the and the API layer and the driver [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3818">TS</a>]

01:03:42   layer really right so I think this is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3822">TS</a>]

01:03:47   still a problem and that's what more or [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3827">TS</a>]

01:03:49   less what I said in the revisit article [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3829">TS</a>]

01:03:51   is that okay so you you delayed this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3831">TS</a>]

01:03:53   problem somewhat but the scary thing is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3833">TS</a>]

01:03:56   that in 2010 I looked again at what what [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3836">TS</a>]

01:03:58   are the alternatives what are you going [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3838">TS</a>]

01:04:00   to do about this and there are don't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3840">TS</a>]

01:04:02   seem to be many more choices the only [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3842">TS</a>]

01:04:04   thing I would say about Apple's choices [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3844">TS</a>]

01:04:06   now is that Apple has proven itself to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3846">TS</a>]

01:04:09   be competent enough to have more options [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3849">TS</a>]

01:04:12   like it's we've seen where it can take a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3852">TS</a>]

01:04:15   technology from somebody else like KHTML [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3855">TS</a>]

01:04:17   from the KDE initiative and make WebKit [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3857">TS</a>]

01:04:21   out of it and just saying oh we're going [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3861">TS</a>]

01:04:22   to own this from now on we're going to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3862">TS</a>]

01:04:23   drive it we're going to fork your thing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3863">TS</a>]

01:04:24   I don't know if they consider it a fork [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3864">TS</a>]

01:04:25   we're going to take your code [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3865">TS</a>]

01:04:26   and we're going to be the driving force [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3866">TS</a>]

01:04:28   behind development from it from now on [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3868">TS</a>]

01:04:30   and we're going to build it into a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3870">TS</a>]

01:04:31   world-class browser engine called WebKit [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3871">TS</a>]

01:04:33   we're going to give it a name we're [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3873">TS</a>]

01:04:35   going to rebrand it we're still going to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3875">TS</a>]

01:04:36   be open source but still share with you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3876">TS</a>]

01:04:37   or whatever but we're not waiting for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3877">TS</a>]

01:04:39   you we're not waiting for KDE people you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3879">TS</a>]

01:04:40   know oh is it okay if we put this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3880">TS</a>]

01:04:41   pageant no we're just plowing ahead as [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3881">TS</a>]

01:04:43   fast as we possibly can and we're going [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3883">TS</a>]

01:04:45   to do our thing and they decided to do [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3885">TS</a>]

01:04:47   with their compiler too they said well [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3887">TS</a>]

01:04:48   GCC you know it's nice that we had that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3888">TS</a>]

01:04:51   for all those years but you guys aren't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3891">TS</a>]

01:04:53   as receptive for the kind of changes [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3893">TS</a>]

01:04:55   that Apple needs and so we're just going [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3895">TS</a>]

01:04:57   to you know say thanks but no thanks [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3897">TS</a>]

01:04:58   we're gonna make our own compiler will [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3898">TS</a>]

01:05:00   make our compiler you know command-line [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3900">TS</a>]

01:05:01   compatible the GCC so we can build all [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3901">TS</a>]

01:05:03   our old programs with it but we're just [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3903">TS</a>]

01:05:04   going to go off in our own direction so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3904">TS</a>]

01:05:06   they made you know they took the LLVM [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3906">TS</a>]

01:05:07   guys and made a new compiler based on [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3907">TS</a>]

01:05:09   that and they're you know it's a long [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3909">TS</a>]

01:05:12   difficult process to do that but all [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3912">TS</a>]

01:05:14   these technologies have to do with C [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3914">TS</a>]

01:05:16   based things and not memory manage [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3916">TS</a>]

01:05:18   languages but it does show that they can [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3918">TS</a>]

01:05:19   take someone else's project and just [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3919">TS</a>]

01:05:21   take it over a hundred percent say we're [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3921">TS</a>]

01:05:23   gonna we can hey we got it from here so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3923">TS</a>]

01:05:25   now maybe they have more options in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3925">TS</a>]

01:05:28   terms of all right so can Apple take [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3928">TS</a>]

01:05:31   c-sharp and just say thanks Microsoft [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3931">TS</a>]

01:05:32   but we're gonna go on our own direction [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3932">TS</a>]

01:05:34   with this thanks for giving us a good [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3934">TS</a>]

01:05:35   start you figured out a lot of the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3935">TS</a>]

01:05:36   problems we're just going to make a new [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3936">TS</a>]

01:05:37   language and called you know Apple P [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3937">TS</a>]

01:05:39   sharp or something like that right and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3939">TS</a>]

01:05:41   and make our own language alright so but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3941">TS</a>]

01:05:44   the language is just one part of the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3944">TS</a>]

01:05:46   equation I think if they make a new [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3946">TS</a>]

01:05:47   language it doesn't buy you anything you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3947">TS</a>]

01:05:48   need a new API a new API that's built [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3948">TS</a>]

01:05:51   for that language right so that your [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3951">TS</a>]

01:05:53   programs become shorter that you need [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3953">TS</a>]

01:05:55   fewer API calls fewer instructions that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3955">TS</a>]

01:05:57   you take advantage of all the native [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3957">TS</a>]

01:05:58   aspects of this fancy new high-level [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3958">TS</a>]

01:06:00   language that you've got to make [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3960">TS</a>]

01:06:01   programmers lives easier and and the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3961">TS</a>]

01:06:04   final difficult bit is even after you've [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3964">TS</a>]

01:06:07   done those two things even if you pick a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3967">TS</a>]

01:06:09   language is the most awesome language [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3969">TS</a>]

01:06:10   everyone everybody loves it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3970">TS</a>]

01:06:11   and you you know you own it you control [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3971">TS</a>]

01:06:13   and you made it so great that just [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3973">TS</a>]

01:06:14   people can't even believe how awesome it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3974">TS</a>]

01:06:15   is you make a new API built on like wow [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3975">TS</a>]

01:06:17   I could write a program in this let this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3977">TS</a>]

01:06:19   API there's like a hundred times shorter [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3979">TS</a>]

01:06:21   than the cocoa application because all [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3981">TS</a>]

01:06:23   this stuff that you had to do in cocoa [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3983">TS</a>]

01:06:24   is just not it's just noise you know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3984">TS</a>]

01:06:25   what stuff disappears all that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3985">TS</a>]

01:06:27   marshalling of arguments and and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3987">TS</a>]

01:06:28   creating those NS dictionaries and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3988">TS</a>]

01:06:30   making any string objects and like no [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3990">TS</a>]

01:06:32   it's all of it doesn't language you get [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3992">TS</a>]

01:06:33   native strings we got native collection [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3993">TS</a>]

01:06:35   classes we got regular expressions built [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3995">TS</a>]

01:06:36   into the syntax we just got everything [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3996">TS</a>]

01:06:38   you know forget about that stuff [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/3998">TS</a>]

01:06:40   making objects and classes everything is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4000">TS</a>]

01:06:41   great then you need to say okay well [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4001">TS</a>]

01:06:45   you've got these great things but you've [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4005">TS</a>]

01:06:46   got a bunch of developers who are [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4006">TS</a>]

01:06:47   writing objective-c cocoa apps who know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4007">TS</a>]

01:06:49   Objective C really well and like cocoa [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4009">TS</a>]

01:06:50   how you can get them to say okay well we [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4010">TS</a>]

01:06:54   would like you to write your programs in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4014">TS</a>]

01:06:56   a different language now using a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4016">TS</a>]

01:06:57   different API that you've never heard of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4017">TS</a>]

01:06:59   and you can't really port your old [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4019">TS</a>]

01:07:01   programs to it so we really kind of like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4021">TS</a>]

01:07:03   you just like rewrite them so maybe for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4023">TS</a>]

01:07:05   the next version just do it in this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4025">TS</a>]

01:07:07   different language and start over from [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4027">TS</a>]

01:07:08   scratch it is really really difficult to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4028">TS</a>]

01:07:10   transition developers and to keep all [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4030">TS</a>]

01:07:12   your existing applications running and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4032">TS</a>]

01:07:14   keep everybody happy just ask Microsoft [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4034">TS</a>]

01:07:15   Microsoft is spending I think it's got [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4035">TS</a>]

01:07:17   to be at least a decade at this point [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4037">TS</a>]

01:07:18   they built this infrastructure they're [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4038">TS</a>]

01:07:21   saying okay please people stop writing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4041">TS</a>]

01:07:23   to the win32 API stop writing MFC [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4043">TS</a>]

01:07:25   application to stop writing whatever you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4045">TS</a>]

01:07:27   know please use our new API is they're [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4047">TS</a>]

01:07:28   really good I swear [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4048">TS</a>]

01:07:29   you should use them and then they would [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4049">TS</a>]

01:07:31   say but of course well when we ship [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4051">TS</a>]

01:07:32   Windows or Windows applications are [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4052">TS</a>]

01:07:34   still going to be written with the old [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4054">TS</a>]

01:07:35   api's but no you should use them because [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4055">TS</a>]

01:07:37   they'll be really good for you we can't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4057">TS</a>]

01:07:39   write into an Explorer using them [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4059">TS</a>]

01:07:40   because you know they just wouldn't work [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4060">TS</a>]

01:07:41   and yet Windows Explorer won't be [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4061">TS</a>]

01:07:43   written using them and ya know none of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4063">TS</a>]

01:07:44   the applications in the operating system [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4064">TS</a>]

01:07:45   were written using them but now you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4065">TS</a>]

01:07:46   should use them because they're really [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4066">TS</a>]

01:07:48   great and you don't have to worry about [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4068">TS</a>]

01:07:49   memory and it's just been a terrible [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4069">TS</a>]

01:07:51   terrible slog to try to get their [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4071">TS</a>]

01:07:53   developers onto this new API which at [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4073">TS</a>]

01:07:55   this point is like pretty darn mature [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4075">TS</a>]

01:07:57   and has some great new API is that have [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4077">TS</a>]

01:07:59   advantages yeah over over those other [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4079">TS</a>]

01:08:02   things with it like yeah but I have a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4082">TS</a>]

01:08:03   working application it uses the old API [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4083">TS</a>]

01:08:05   and as long as you don't make the old [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4085">TS</a>]

01:08:06   API stop I'm going to keep using that so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4086">TS</a>]

01:08:09   I think Apple has gotten a little [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4089">TS</a>]

01:08:12   reprieve here but they the problem still [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4092">TS</a>]

01:08:17   exists and this is where people start [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4097">TS</a>]

01:08:20   flipping out if they're not already [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4100">TS</a>]

01:08:21   flipping out in the chatroom is that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4101">TS</a>]

01:08:23   they're gonna there we will swear up and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4103">TS</a>]

01:08:24   down that what I'm saying is nonsense [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4104">TS</a>]

01:08:27   that Objective C is perfectly fine in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4107">TS</a>]

01:08:29   fact it's awesome in fact objective-c is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4109">TS</a>]

01:08:30   the reason why writing for a Mac OS 10 [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4110">TS</a>]

01:08:32   is better than writing for other [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4112">TS</a>]

01:08:33   platforms or that the Koki API is are [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4113">TS</a>]

01:08:35   the reason for writing you know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4115">TS</a>]

01:08:36   objective-c all those faults you talked [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4116">TS</a>]

01:08:39   about they seem theoretically important [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4119">TS</a>]

01:08:41   but really in practice they're they're [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4121">TS</a>]

01:08:44   you know they're not a problem if our [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4124">TS</a>]

01:08:45   experience Objective C developers and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4125">TS</a>]

01:08:47   Apple has been revising the languages [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4127">TS</a>]

01:08:48   and they added blocks down at the sea [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4128">TS</a>]

01:08:50   level and everything and they added you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4130">TS</a>]

01:08:51   know synthesized properties and all [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4131">TS</a>]

01:08:52   these awesome things and fast [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4132">TS</a>]

01:08:53   raishin is just it's actually [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4133">TS</a>]

01:08:55   progressing we've got a lot of great [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4135">TS</a>]

01:08:56   features that you're talking about those [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4136">TS</a>]

01:08:57   high level angers we don't need it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4137">TS</a>]

01:08:59   really it's kind of like that Winston [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4139">TS</a>]

01:09:02   Churchill joke where the woman I forget [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4142">TS</a>]

01:09:04   that I can scrub this joke but he talks [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4144">TS</a>]

01:09:06   some woman and offers her money for sex [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4146">TS</a>]

01:09:09   and and she refuses oh you know the show [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4149">TS</a>]

01:09:13   saved me for myself I don't I don't you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4153">TS</a>]

01:09:15   don't know this joke no song at Rome [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4155">TS</a>]

01:09:17   really right [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4157">TS</a>]

01:09:18   the punch line is that madam I've [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4158">TS</a>]

01:09:21   already we've already established what [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4161">TS</a>]

01:09:22   you are now we're just haggling over [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4162">TS</a>]

01:09:23   price so go google that and find a joke [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4163">TS</a>]

01:09:26   part of it you can make your own joke [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4166">TS</a>]

01:09:28   someone says that George Bernard Shaw [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4168">TS</a>]

01:09:30   and not Churchill that's probably [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4170">TS</a>]

01:09:31   correct um but at any rate if you agree [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4171">TS</a>]

01:09:35   with the premise that we talked about [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4175">TS</a>]

01:09:36   earlier about abstraction increasing all [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4176">TS</a>]

01:09:38   we're arguing about here is a timeline [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4178">TS</a>]

01:09:39   no one is arguing that objective-c is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4179">TS</a>]

01:09:42   going to be it forever or at least I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4182">TS</a>]

01:09:44   don't think any sane people because you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4184">TS</a>]

01:09:46   can't especially in the computer so you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4186">TS</a>]

01:09:47   can't say Objective C will last forever [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4187">TS</a>]

01:09:49   our grandchildren's grandchildren will [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4189">TS</a>]

01:09:51   be doing writing an objective-c there [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4191">TS</a>]

01:09:53   will be dereferencing pointers well they [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4193">TS</a>]

01:09:56   will not it's just a matter of the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4196">TS</a>]

01:09:57   timeline and this is the type of thing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4197">TS</a>]

01:09:59   you can't just decide well looks like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4199">TS</a>]

01:10:01   Objective C is kind of spent alone we [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4201">TS</a>]

01:10:03   pick something else new it takes [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4203">TS</a>]

01:10:05   literally decades or more to build up a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4205">TS</a>]

01:10:08   foundation you can transition to and and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4208">TS</a>]

01:10:11   you can't cheat by making bridges and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4211">TS</a>]

01:10:13   you can't cheat by keeping the old ABI [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4213">TS</a>]

01:10:14   I'm putting a new language you just have [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4214">TS</a>]

01:10:16   to put in the work to figure out what is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4216">TS</a>]

01:10:18   the next generation of developing for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4218">TS</a>]

01:10:20   our platform going to be like and if [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4220">TS</a>]

01:10:22   Apple has some secret answer that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4222">TS</a>]

01:10:23   they're that they're working on inside [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4223">TS</a>]

01:10:25   the the corporation I don't know about [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4225">TS</a>]

01:10:27   it I didn't know about in 2005 I still [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4227">TS</a>]

01:10:29   don't know about it maybe they have a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4229">TS</a>]

01:10:30   skunkworks project that's been going on [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4230">TS</a>]

01:10:31   for 5-10 years that I don't know about [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4231">TS</a>]

01:10:33   but I seriously doubt it and I'm really [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4233">TS</a>]

01:10:36   concerned that they're not going to have [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4236">TS</a>]

01:10:38   an answer and I'm concerned because all [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4238">TS</a>]

01:10:39   their competitors have you already paid [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4239">TS</a>]

01:10:42   this price or are starting from scratch [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4242">TS</a>]

01:10:43   like palm with webOS and don't have to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4243">TS</a>]

01:10:45   deal with this transition you know all [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4245">TS</a>]

01:10:47   their competitors are starting at a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4247">TS</a>]

01:10:49   higher level of abstraction in them and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4249">TS</a>]

01:10:51   Apple has tremendous advantages over [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4251">TS</a>]

01:10:53   them right now but if they don't you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4253">TS</a>]

01:10:55   know if they do completely squash [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4255">TS</a>]

01:10:57   everybody else then everyone for like a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4257">TS</a>]

01:10:58   Dark Age of objective-c where we can off [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4258">TS</a>]

01:11:00   this friggin language to a higher-level [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4260">TS</a>]

01:11:02   language but if they don't squash [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4262">TS</a>]

01:11:03   everybody else eventually they're going [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4263">TS</a>]

01:11:05   to be in that Coppola Mike situation [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4265">TS</a>]

01:11:06   where everybody else has [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4266">TS</a>]

01:11:07   and they're looking crappy and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4267">TS</a>]

01:11:08   developers like ya iOS I was making a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4268">TS</a>]

01:11:11   lot of money on that back and you know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4271">TS</a>]

01:11:12   the first decade of the 2000s but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4272">TS</a>]

01:11:14   nowadays just I can't deal with this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4274">TS</a>]

01:11:16   this whole memory thing is just so much [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4276">TS</a>]

01:11:17   easier to write you know programs in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4277">TS</a>]

01:11:20   these other languages and api's I have [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4280">TS</a>]

01:11:21   to ride half as many lines of code then [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4281">TS</a>]

01:11:23   I have to deal with all those argument [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4283">TS</a>]

01:11:24   marshalling and all this ridiculous you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4284">TS</a>]

01:11:25   know strange objective-c stuff is just [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4285">TS</a>]

01:11:28   BS these days I shouldn't have to deal [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4288">TS</a>]

01:11:30   with that uh and that's what I'm worried [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4290">TS</a>]

01:11:32   about with it with the Copeland 2010 [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4292">TS</a>]

01:11:34   thing apparently I was way off on a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4294">TS</a>]

01:11:36   timeline I didn't see iOS coming I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4296">TS</a>]

01:11:37   didn't see how that was going to give [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4297">TS</a>]

01:11:38   them a new lease on life but I think [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4298">TS</a>]

01:11:39   it's the problem and no one I have [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4299">TS</a>]

01:11:41   talked to has said here's what Apple's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4301">TS</a>]

01:11:46   going to do to get out of it they either [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4306">TS</a>]

01:11:47   say this is not a problem or I'll be [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4307">TS</a>]

01:11:48   retired by the time it's a problem so I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4308">TS</a>]

01:11:50   don't care which is a valid argument you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4310">TS</a>]

01:11:51   know say hey I'll be retired on an [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4311">TS</a>]

01:11:53   island I don't really care what Apple [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4313">TS</a>]

01:11:54   does it's not my problem and same thing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4314">TS</a>]

01:11:56   for the people who are running Apple [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4316">TS</a>]

01:11:58   they could say that's not going to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4318">TS</a>]

01:11:59   happen on my watch because I'll be [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4319">TS</a>]

01:12:01   retired by then but if anyone is looking [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4321">TS</a>]

01:12:03   out for the long-term health of the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4323">TS</a>]

01:12:05   company in the flat form I think you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4325">TS</a>]

01:12:07   have to have an answer to this and 2005 [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4327">TS</a>]

01:12:10   maybe it was too early to be worrying [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4330">TS</a>]

01:12:11   about it but I would say now in 2010 [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4331">TS</a>]

01:12:13   despite this iOS diversion someone needs [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4333">TS</a>]

01:12:16   to be thinking about this and I have no [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4336">TS</a>]

01:12:18   idea what they're going to do and I have [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4338">TS</a>]

01:12:19   never heard from anybody something that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4339">TS</a>]

01:12:22   they're going to do that has convinced [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4342">TS</a>]

01:12:23   me that they're all set um so that's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4343">TS</a>]

01:12:27   about it I had a whole other section [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4347">TS</a>]

01:12:28   here that we just simply do not have [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4348">TS</a>]

01:12:30   time for I'm I guess I'll make it into a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4350">TS</a>]

01:12:31   whole other show topic but then that's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4351">TS</a>]

01:12:33   where I mean you can argue about [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4353">TS</a>]

01:12:34   programming languages oh so you don't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4354">TS</a>]

01:12:36   even want to go into Perl here that's I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4356">TS</a>]

01:12:39   have a whole section on dynamic [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4359">TS</a>]

01:12:41   programming language this is I always [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4361">TS</a>]

01:12:44   start my my blog ideas with a title [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4364">TS</a>]

01:12:46   because once I have a title that I like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4366">TS</a>]

01:12:49   I will eventually write something about [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4369">TS</a>]

01:12:50   it this is my longest-running title ever [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4370">TS</a>]

01:12:52   that you have or have not written about [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4372">TS</a>]

01:12:54   that I have not written about are you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4374">TS</a>]

01:12:55   going to give it away [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4375">TS</a>]

01:12:57   I should just cuz I'm never gonna [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4377">TS</a>]

01:12:58   freakin write about it this is kind of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4378">TS</a>]

01:13:01   the imarco thing where I don't want to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4381">TS</a>]

01:13:02   talk about programming languages on like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4382">TS</a>]

01:13:03   our technical article because people get [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4383">TS</a>]

01:13:06   too antsy about it and it's not my usual [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4386">TS</a>]

01:13:07   thing but the title which no one should [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4387">TS</a>]

01:13:09   steal because I swear I'll write about [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4389">TS</a>]

01:13:10   this in at least the next decade or two [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4390">TS</a>]

01:13:12   is General Dynamics which is a pun that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4392">TS</a>]

01:13:14   normally even get unless you know about [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4394">TS</a>]

01:13:15   like defense contractors from the 80s [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4395">TS</a>]

01:13:17   but anyway General Dynamics isn't is the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4397">TS</a>]

01:13:19   article [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4399">TS</a>]

01:13:20   title and it's about dynamic languages [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4400">TS</a>]

01:13:22   and the sad situation of therein but I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4402">TS</a>]

01:13:24   think that should be a separate show top [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4404">TS</a>]

01:13:26   okay wait we can do that can do that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4406">TS</a>]

01:13:31   someone's got a General Dynamics made [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4411">TS</a>]

01:13:34   the f16 that's right who doesn't know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4414">TS</a>]

01:13:35   General Dynamics children of the 80s [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4415">TS</a>]

01:13:37   fans of jet fighter planes and defense [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4417">TS</a>]

01:13:40   contractors do you ever make models when [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4420">TS</a>]

01:13:42   you were a little kid I did you ever do [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4422">TS</a>]

01:13:45   an f-16 and f-18 all Ryu's to be able to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4425">TS</a>]

01:13:48   identify any US military fighter [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4428">TS</a>]

01:13:50   aircraft from my lifetime or several [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4430">TS</a>]

01:13:53   decades prior why does that not surprise [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4433">TS</a>]

01:13:54   me that models of them all in my room I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4434">TS</a>]

01:13:57   wish actually do a whole show on the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4437">TS</a>]

01:13:59   Joint Strike Fighter [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4439">TS</a>]

01:14:00   that is a great gosh I can't wait for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4440">TS</a>]

01:14:02   that one yeah that's a great example of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4442">TS</a>]

01:14:04   it it's a great analogy to Apple and the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4444">TS</a>]

01:14:06   technology market now here come the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4446">TS</a>]

01:14:09   emails from the people who say you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4449">TS</a>]

01:14:10   should totally do a show you know or the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4450">TS</a>]

01:14:14   Osprey a couple of the military wonks [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4454">TS</a>]

01:14:16   print out the Osprey that gets more into [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4456">TS</a>]

01:14:18   like that's more show about government [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4458">TS</a>]

01:14:19   waste I think then about military here [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4459">TS</a>]

01:14:22   so let's wrap this up with it something [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4462">TS</a>]

01:14:25   positive for change why would we do that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4465">TS</a>]

01:14:28   because I think I think there are a lot [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4468">TS</a>]

01:14:30   of people out there now here's my take [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4470">TS</a>]

01:14:32   on on objective-c [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4472">TS</a>]

01:14:34   I could never get used to the syntax of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4474">TS</a>]

01:14:37   it I just don't like it I don't like the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4477">TS</a>]

01:14:39   way it looks and this is weird this is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4479">TS</a>]

01:14:41   really weird because say well who cares [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4481">TS</a>]

01:14:44   how it looks it's how does it feel any [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4484">TS</a>]

01:14:45   program etre you didn't give it enough [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4485">TS</a>]

01:14:47   time or you didn't give it a chance well [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4487">TS</a>]

01:14:48   I did I've written a bunch of absent [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4488">TS</a>]

01:14:51   objective-c and I you know you just at [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4491">TS</a>]

01:14:55   least in my case you know I'm the kind [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4495">TS</a>]

01:14:57   of person where if I don't like the the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4497">TS</a>]

01:15:01   look of the IDE or I don't like the text [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4501">TS</a>]

01:15:03   editing window or I don't like the color [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4503">TS</a>]

01:15:05   of the terminal and the fonts I I won't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4505">TS</a>]

01:15:07   be able to do anything I'll have to get [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4507">TS</a>]

01:15:09   them go can't do this is this is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4509">TS</a>]

01:15:11   actually a Joint Strike Fighter [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4511">TS</a>]

01:15:12   connection I'm not will not explain it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4512">TS</a>]

01:15:14   but people knit in the chat room Joint [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4514">TS</a>]

01:15:16   Strike Fighter not liking how something [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4516">TS</a>]

01:15:19   looks yes I will add that to the show [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4519">TS</a>]

01:15:21   non-school do it and follow up okay so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4521">TS</a>]

01:15:24   in that situation for me that the way [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4524">TS</a>]

01:15:26   something looks the way the interaction [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4526">TS</a>]

01:15:28   all of that's very important and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4528">TS</a>]

01:15:31   although I certainly understand the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4531">TS</a>]

01:15:33   value of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4533">TS</a>]

01:15:34   programming language like Perl it's it's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4534">TS</a>]

01:15:37   not something that's enjoyable to read I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4537">TS</a>]

01:15:38   was just sitting down with with the guru [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4538">TS</a>]

01:15:40   the guy who is the biggest mentor in my [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4540">TS</a>]

01:15:44   programming life I was just having lunch [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4544">TS</a>]

01:15:48   with him it's like our goodbye lunch [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4548">TS</a>]

01:15:50   because I won't see him again because [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4550">TS</a>]

01:15:51   we're moving to Austin I'll probably [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4551">TS</a>]

01:15:52   never see him again [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4552">TS</a>]

01:15:53   I mean Nevers a long time this person [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4553">TS</a>]

01:15:54   have a name or is it like secret that's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4554">TS</a>]

01:15:56   why we have to calm the goo he's known [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4556">TS</a>]

01:15:57   as the Guru and to you or worldwide as [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4557">TS</a>]

01:16:03   if that's either of those do things have [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4563">TS</a>]

01:16:05   a different meaning and both alright [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4565">TS</a>]

01:16:08   I mean worldwide the the only I'm I am [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4568">TS</a>]

01:16:12   the only way that people would know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4572">TS</a>]

01:16:13   about him [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4573">TS</a>]

01:16:14   so therefore worldwide known as the Guru [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4574">TS</a>]

01:16:17   I thought he was one of the very first [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4577">TS</a>]

01:16:19   picture of him that I'll add to the show [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4579">TS</a>]

01:16:21   notes there's a picture of him in my [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4581">TS</a>]

01:16:24   Flickr so he's taught me tons of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4584">TS</a>]

01:16:29   information Tom to Ed so much so we were [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4589">TS</a>]

01:16:31   having lunch at Chipotle and we were we [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4591">TS</a>]

01:16:35   were talking about something sort of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4595">TS</a>]

01:16:37   sideways related to this and you know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4597">TS</a>]

01:16:40   for him he excels at all programming [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4600">TS</a>]

01:16:45   languages at you know he operates it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4605">TS</a>]

01:16:47   very much a genius level and for him [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4607">TS</a>]

01:16:50   it's simply it's more like a different [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4610">TS</a>]

01:16:52   kind of muscle memory he types one way [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4612">TS</a>]

01:16:54   in one app another programming language [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4614">TS</a>]

01:16:57   rather a different way in another it's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4617">TS</a>]

01:16:59   just the minor differences just okay [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4619">TS</a>]

01:17:01   that's how I do it here I I can't I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4621">TS</a>]

01:17:03   don't get into I like I want to like the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4623">TS</a>]

01:17:06   language that I'm using visually as well [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4626">TS</a>]

01:17:08   I want to like the way it looks on the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4628">TS</a>]

01:17:10   screen I want to enjoy reading it is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4630">TS</a>]

01:17:12   that weird maybe so for me when I look [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4632">TS</a>]

01:17:15   at a language like Objective C my first [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4635">TS</a>]

01:17:17   response is that it's ugly and they'll [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4637">TS</a>]

01:17:20   use something else [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4640">TS</a>]

01:17:23   is that weird that's not weird I mean [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4643">TS</a>]

01:17:26   that that also explains very neatly why [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4646">TS</a>]

01:17:29   you like Ruby yeah that's the main [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4649">TS</a>]

01:17:32   reason I like Ruby this is definitely an [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4652">TS</a>]

01:17:34   aesthetic appeal that I I don't I I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4654">TS</a>]

01:17:38   actually might like the language or not [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4658">TS</a>]

01:17:40   I admire people who can deal with it I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4660">TS</a>]

01:17:43   think they're they should be applauded [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4663">TS</a>]

01:17:44   to deal with something as [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4664">TS</a>]

01:17:46   ugliest objective-c because its if you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4666">TS</a>]

01:17:49   if you're willing to do that if you're [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4669">TS</a>]

01:17:50   willing to to set aside everything that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4670">TS</a>]

01:17:53   that your heart and and soul will tell [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4673">TS</a>]

01:17:56   you it's a very powerful language you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4676">TS</a>]

01:17:58   could do amazing things like make a fart [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4678">TS</a>]

01:18:00   AB for you know million dollars among [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4680">TS</a>]

01:18:04   other really good apps I mean you know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4684">TS</a>]

01:18:05   obviously the the amazing apps that are [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4685">TS</a>]

01:18:08   out there I think John are a testament [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4688">TS</a>]

01:18:10   to what can be done with Objective C [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4690">TS</a>]

01:18:12   first so forget the syntax part forget [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4692">TS</a>]

01:18:15   that it's a a rough language to to get [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4695">TS</a>]

01:18:17   into if you can get over that hurdle [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4697">TS</a>]

01:18:20   which admittedly I would never quite did [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4700">TS</a>]

01:18:23   if you can do that the whole world is is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4703">TS</a>]

01:18:27   right there at your fingertips you can [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4707">TS</a>]

01:18:29   make apps you can make apps that help [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4709">TS</a>]

01:18:32   people apps that are just make you money [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4712">TS</a>]

01:18:34   apps that are useful educational great [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4714">TS</a>]

01:18:36   games what's wrong with that who cares [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4716">TS</a>]

01:18:40   if you if you get a deal with this all [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4720">TS</a>]

01:18:42   these things you pointed out who cares [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4722">TS</a>]

01:18:43   it just so what it says par for the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4723">TS</a>]

01:18:46   course and so what if this is all we [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4726">TS</a>]

01:18:48   ever have why is that so mad well who [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4728">TS</a>]

01:18:49   cares now but what I'm saying is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4729">TS</a>]

01:18:51   eventually people will care and to think [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4731">TS</a>]

01:18:53   otherwise it's just absolutely [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4733">TS</a>]

01:18:54   ridiculous on its face it eventually you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4734">TS</a>]

01:18:56   know maybe in the people who are live [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4736">TS</a>]

01:18:58   today won't care is all be dead but [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4738">TS</a>]

01:18:59   eventually it will be ridiculous it'll [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4739">TS</a>]

01:19:01   be ridiculous as today if you say well [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4741">TS</a>]

01:19:03   if you want to write an application for [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4743">TS</a>]

01:19:04   the iPhone you got to do it in machine [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4744">TS</a>]

01:19:05   code so get out your hex out that would [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4745">TS</a>]

01:19:07   be very ridiculous that would be a sir [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4747">TS</a>]

01:19:09   or Eve or even assembly right but if you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4749">TS</a>]

01:19:12   if we were having this conversation back [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4752">TS</a>]

01:19:13   in the 60s when you know computers were [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4753">TS</a>]

01:19:15   just coming online or whatever and I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4755">TS</a>]

01:19:17   said well you know of course we write [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4757">TS</a>]

01:19:18   all our programs here assembly here in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4758">TS</a>]

01:19:19   the military for this targeting computer [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4759">TS</a>]

01:19:21   or whatever and yeah assembly is a pain [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4761">TS</a>]

01:19:24   but if you can get past it boy you can [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4764">TS</a>]

01:19:25   do some great things and it's just you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4765">TS</a>]

01:19:26   can really get down to the bare metal [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4766">TS</a>]

01:19:27   and it of assemblies all we ever have I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4767">TS</a>]

01:19:30   think that'll be fine in 2010 we're [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4770">TS</a>]

01:19:31   still writing an assembly everybody will [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4771">TS</a>]

01:19:33   be fine with it that's not how progress [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4773">TS</a>]

01:19:34   works that's not how humanity works [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4774">TS</a>]

01:19:36   people will not be fine with Objective C [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4776">TS</a>]

01:19:38   forever so do you do you then suspect [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4778">TS</a>]

01:19:40   that at some point it's Apple that's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4780">TS</a>]

01:19:43   going to take charge of this or do you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4783">TS</a>]

01:19:44   think it'll come you know remember what [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4784">TS</a>]

01:19:46   was the name of that development [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4786">TS</a>]

01:19:48   language there's a full-on IDE was a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4788">TS</a>]

01:19:50   code warrior code word I knew people [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4790">TS</a>]

01:19:52   that were using code warrior swore by [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4792">TS</a>]

01:19:54   code warrior and really resisted [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4794">TS</a>]

01:19:57   everything that came out when Xcode came [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4797">TS</a>]

01:19:59   out because [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4799">TS</a>]

01:20:00   a new matter they didn't have a new [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4800">TS</a>]

01:20:01   language but they had a new API API and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4801">TS</a>]

01:20:04   new and used this uses our power plant [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4804">TS</a>]

01:20:06   API instead of writing to the Mac [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4806">TS</a>]

01:20:08   toolbox which had that line the Mac [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4808">TS</a>]

01:20:09   toolbox with ridiculously creaky and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4809">TS</a>]

01:20:11   they built a higher level API on top of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4811">TS</a>]

01:20:13   the same language I think it all depends [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4813">TS</a>]

01:20:15   on who's steering Apple at the point [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4815">TS</a>]

01:20:18   that the crisis starts till doom I think [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4818">TS</a>]

01:20:20   it's irresponsible for the company not [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4820">TS</a>]

01:20:21   to have a project about this already [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4821">TS</a>]

01:20:23   maybe they do I can't say that they [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4823">TS</a>]

01:20:24   don't because if they did it's not like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4824">TS</a>]

01:20:26   they're going to tell people that they [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4826">TS</a>]

01:20:26   do maybe they've tried seven different [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4826">TS</a>]

01:20:28   directions and they're still [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4828">TS</a>]

01:20:29   experimenting internally but I'm going [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4829">TS</a>]

01:20:31   to say that if at this point Apple does [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4831">TS</a>]

01:20:33   not have some sort of plan in motion [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4833">TS</a>]

01:20:35   with people doing actual work to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4835">TS</a>]

01:20:37   figuring out what's after objective-c [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4837">TS</a>]

01:20:39   and cocoa they're being irresponsible as [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4839">TS</a>]

01:20:41   a corporation despite the fact that all [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4841">TS</a>]

01:20:43   the leadership who are there now will [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4843">TS</a>]

01:20:44   likely be retired when it's time to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4844">TS</a>]

01:20:46   execute in that plan they need to be [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4846">TS</a>]

01:20:47   thinking about it now I certainly hope [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4847">TS</a>]

01:20:49   to be alive at the point where I think [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4849">TS</a>]

01:20:51   it will be embarrassing to ask people to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4851">TS</a>]

01:20:54   write an objective-c in cocoa for iOS [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4854">TS</a>]

01:20:57   and the only way that's not going to be [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4857">TS</a>]

01:20:58   embarrassing is if Apple comes to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4858">TS</a>]

01:21:00   dominate so thoroughly that like I said [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4860">TS</a>]

01:21:02   it's the I think this will definitely be [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4862">TS</a>]

01:21:04   the show title the Dark Age of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4864">TS</a>]

01:21:05   objective-c starts to rain sort of like [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4865">TS</a>]

01:21:07   a Dark Age of Windows when there was no [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4867">TS</a>]

01:21:08   progress in you know web technology [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4868">TS</a>]

01:21:11   because ie was dominant and not a lot of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4871">TS</a>]

01:21:13   progress on desktop applications because [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4873">TS</a>]

01:21:15   they were just you know increasingly [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4875">TS</a>]

01:21:17   complicated Windows applications I just [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4877">TS</a>]

01:21:19   every version they had a ten new buttons [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4879">TS</a>]

01:21:20   to the toolbar and it took Apple to come [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4880">TS</a>]

01:21:22   along and sort of wipe the slate clean [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4882">TS</a>]

01:21:23   and say here's what you can do with [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4883">TS</a>]

01:21:25   application design that's different and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4885">TS</a>]

01:21:26   you know here's what you can do with web [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4886">TS</a>]

01:21:28   browser design with uh with Mozilla and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4888">TS</a>]

01:21:30   everything what technologies can [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4890">TS</a>]

01:21:32   actually be cool if you're not stuck in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4892">TS</a>]

01:21:33   IE forever I don't want to see a Dark [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4893">TS</a>]

01:21:35   Age of objective-c but it's the only way [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4895">TS</a>]

01:21:37   that Objective C is not going to hit a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4897">TS</a>]

01:21:39   crisis point in my lifetime assuming I [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4899">TS</a>]

01:21:41   live to a ripe old age and so I think [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4901">TS</a>]

01:21:44   there needs to be a plan and I have no [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4904">TS</a>]

01:21:46   idea what that good it should be but it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4906">TS</a>]

01:21:48   needs to be something hopefully uh [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4908">TS</a>]

01:21:51   hopefully they're on the ball do you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4911">TS</a>]

01:21:54   think you think when they do do it that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4914">TS</a>]

01:21:56   it will be a universal transition the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4916">TS</a>]

01:21:59   way that it was with Xcode in the past [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4919">TS</a>]

01:22:01   like this is the way to build it or do [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4921">TS</a>]

01:22:03   you think that they'll have [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4923">TS</a>]

01:22:04   complementary tools maybe or [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4924">TS</a>]

01:22:06   complementary compatibility so that so [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4926">TS</a>]

01:22:09   that when you want to make this [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4929">TS</a>]

01:22:10   transition it's your choice you can use [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4930">TS</a>]

01:22:12   whatever in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4932">TS</a>]

01:22:14   structure coding infrastructure you'd [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4934">TS</a>]

01:22:16   like to use so if if I am the most [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4936">TS</a>]

01:22:19   optimistic and I say let's imagine that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4939">TS</a>]

01:22:20   the most competent incarnation of Apple [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4940">TS</a>]

01:22:23   is the one executing this plan it's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4943">TS</a>]

01:22:24   because the most competent Carnation of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4944">TS</a>]

01:22:26   Apple is really really good at [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4946">TS</a>]

01:22:28   everything you need to be good at to do [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4948">TS</a>]

01:22:30   this they're really good at transitions [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4950">TS</a>]

01:22:32   that's how many transitions they've done [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4952">TS</a>]

01:22:33   from different CPUs at different [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4953">TS</a>]

01:22:35   languages different IDs they are really [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4955">TS</a>]

01:22:37   good at transitions at their best they [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4957">TS</a>]

01:22:38   can pull off amazing things and no one [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4958">TS</a>]

01:22:40   imagined like changing the entire CPU [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4960">TS</a>]

01:22:41   architecture of their entire line of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4961">TS</a>]

01:22:43   products like without a little bump even [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4963">TS</a>]

01:22:45   that was just pretty amazing like they [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4965">TS</a>]

01:22:47   can pull it off they can do those types [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4967">TS</a>]

01:22:49   of things if that is the crew running [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4969">TS</a>]

01:22:51   the show and if they have a good plan [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4971">TS</a>]

01:22:53   the big you know because it's going to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4973">TS</a>]

01:22:54   take years and years to do this no [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4974">TS</a>]

01:22:55   matter what if they start early enough [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4975">TS</a>]

01:22:57   and have a good plan and aren't acting [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4977">TS</a>]

01:22:59   out of panic or desperation and have [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4979">TS</a>]

01:23:00   good leadership I think they can pull it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4980">TS</a>]

01:23:02   off with it with a complete transition [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4982">TS</a>]

01:23:04   sort of the way they put everyone on [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4984">TS</a>]

01:23:05   decks code right it was a little bit [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4985">TS</a>]

01:23:07   bumpy in the beginning right but they [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4987">TS</a>]

01:23:09   just they were slow and methodical and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4989">TS</a>]

01:23:10   you know it Xcode didn't even exist they [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4990">TS</a>]

01:23:12   said stop using power plant we will [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4992">TS</a>]

01:23:15   support you with carbon for a little [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4995">TS</a>]

01:23:16   while but like seriously guys stop using [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4996">TS</a>]

01:23:18   power plant you should really use [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4998">TS</a>]

01:23:19   project builder we don't want you to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/4999">TS</a>]

01:23:21   build your application with metro works [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5001">TS</a>]

01:23:22   but it will still work for a little [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5002">TS</a>]

01:23:23   while and eventually like no seriously [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5003">TS</a>]

01:23:24   forget about that Metro work stop no [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5004">TS</a>]

01:23:26   more power plant I'm serious go on to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5006">TS</a>]

01:23:28   project builder and byways there's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5008">TS</a>]

01:23:29   nothing called Xcode forget about [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5009">TS</a>]

01:23:30   project builder I know you neckties are [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5010">TS</a>]

01:23:32   cranky but we're making a new app called [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5012">TS</a>]

01:23:33   Xcode and it'll be cool and you know [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5013">TS</a>]

01:23:35   they go with that for a few years and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5015">TS</a>]

01:23:36   they say that Carbon thing we need to go [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5016">TS</a>]

01:23:38   you need to cut that out besides legacy [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5018">TS</a>]

01:23:40   crap or moving away from it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5020">TS</a>]

01:23:41   Carbon guys sorry you know your apps [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5021">TS</a>]

01:23:43   will still work but you're not getting [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5023">TS</a>]

01:23:44   on the 64 bit train with us and Xcode [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5024">TS</a>]

01:23:46   we're going to do it as a single indoor [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5026">TS</a>]

01:23:47   interface it looks like iTunes and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5027">TS</a>]

01:23:48   you're going to deal with it and we're [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5028">TS</a>]

01:23:49   just all in the Train everybody on the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5029">TS</a>]

01:23:51   Xcode Train now and by the way that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5031">TS</a>]

01:23:53   compiled that you like GCC we've got a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5033">TS</a>]

01:23:54   new one forget about that ECC thing [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5034">TS</a>]

01:23:55   we're going to transition to a new one [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5035">TS</a>]

01:23:57   takes years and years and years in [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5037">TS</a>]

01:23:59   incremental steps but everybody gets [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5039">TS</a>]

01:24:01   funneled into it so I think when they do [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5041">TS</a>]

01:24:02   undertake this procedure it's going to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5042">TS</a>]

01:24:05   be a big giant funnel and it's going to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5045">TS</a>]

01:24:06   be like alright guys let's start you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5046">TS</a>]

01:24:07   know start turning off the lights on [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5047">TS</a>]

01:24:09   that old stuff but you're going to be [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5049">TS</a>]

01:24:10   around for years and years but it's just [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5050">TS</a>]

01:24:12   going to be like powerplant and carbon [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5052">TS</a>]

01:24:14   and you know project builder and all the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5054">TS</a>]

01:24:17   other stuff that you like and GCC it's [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5057">TS</a>]

01:24:19   not going to go away today it's not [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5059">TS</a>]

01:24:20   going to go away tomorrow but we're [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5060">TS</a>]

01:24:21   telling you it's a big long funnel and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5061">TS</a>]

01:24:23   we're all going down the chute to the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5063">TS</a>]

01:24:24   slaughter or wherever you want to think [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5064">TS</a>]

01:24:26   about these are all bad analogies [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5066">TS</a>]

01:24:27   and everyone together in a line and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5067">TS</a>]

01:24:30   we're all going to transition to you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5070">TS</a>]

01:24:31   know Apple basic or the hell they're [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5071">TS</a>]

01:24:32   going to come up with them is going to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5072">TS</a>]

01:24:34   be a new API and Coco's great and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5074">TS</a>]

01:24:36   everything and we'll still do bug fixes [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5076">TS</a>]

01:24:37   but I'm sorry but coco is not making the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5077">TS</a>]

01:24:39   transition to 128 bit which is [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5079">TS</a>]

01:24:42   ridiculous yeah people think I'm serious [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5082">TS</a>]

01:24:44   about hundred twenty but but anyway [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5084">TS</a>]

01:24:46   that's the type of thing you're gonna [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5086">TS</a>]

01:24:47   but that's Apple at its best where they [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5087">TS</a>]

01:24:49   have a plan takes many years to execute [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5089">TS</a>]

01:24:51   and they do it in incremental steps and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5091">TS</a>]

01:24:53   people grumble along the way but in the [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5093">TS</a>]

01:24:54   end everyone comes out the other side [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5094">TS</a>]

01:24:55   happier that is the best case scenario [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5095">TS</a>]

01:24:58   and I think they need to be working on [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5098">TS</a>]

01:25:01   that now [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5101">TS</a>]

01:25:02   all right I can't disagree I really [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5102">TS</a>]

01:25:06   can't disagree with you I like doing it [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5106">TS</a>]

01:25:09   when I can I try no I I want to I can't [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5109">TS</a>]

01:25:12   you can disagree with me on that then [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5112">TS</a>]

01:25:14   iMac languages yeah well will will have [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5114">TS</a>]

01:25:15   a lot to say then that's that's not say [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5115">TS</a>]

01:25:18   you're using Perl it's not nuts must be [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5118">TS</a>]

01:25:22   golden handcuffs thing we'll get to that [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5122">TS</a>]

01:25:23   the faintest thing ever [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5123">TS</a>]

01:25:25   alright let's wrap this up thanks [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5125">TS</a>]

01:25:27   everybody for tuning in thanks to [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5127">TS</a>]

01:25:29   Shopify dot-com remember use code 5x5 [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5129">TS</a>]

01:25:32   and you'll get three months free thanks [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5132">TS</a>]

01:25:34   to Rackspace comm slash king of the apps [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5134">TS</a>]

01:25:36   you could win ten we do a lot we give [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5136">TS</a>]

01:25:38   you we give you $10,000 in three months [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5138">TS</a>]

01:25:40   free do as much as we can here and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5140">TS</a>]

01:25:42   thanks to John siracusa there's no Z and [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5142">TS</a>]

01:25:45   last time you said that follow-up you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5145">TS</a>]

01:25:47   said could you spell my name instead of [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5147">TS</a>]

01:25:51   just saying there's no Z it's s IRAs IRA [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5151">TS</a>]

01:25:55   see us on Twitter I'm Dan benjamin on [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5155">TS</a>]

01:26:00   twitter and we appreciate you listening [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5160">TS</a>]

01:26:02   you can check out 5x5 TV here a whole [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5162">TS</a>]

01:26:05   bunch of other shows we've just got a [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5165">TS</a>]

01:26:07   new show just premiered today with Mike [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5167">TS</a>]

01:26:10   Montero it's called let's make mistakes [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5170">TS</a>]

01:26:13   so go check that out at 5x5 dot TV [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5173">TS</a>]

01:26:15   subscribe and have a good week thanks [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5175">TS</a>]

01:26:18   John [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5178">TS</a>]

01:26:28   you [<a href="https://overcast.fm/+Ipl3z-2g/5188">TS</a>]