Hypercritical

00:00:00 ◼   ► [Music] [TS]

00:00:01 ◼   ► this is hypercritical it's a weekly [TS]

00:00:04 ◼   ► talkshow ruminating on exactly what is [TS]

00:00:06 ◼   ► wrong the world of Apple and related [TS]

00:00:08 ◼   ► technologies and businesses nothing is [TS]

00:00:10 ◼   ► so perfect that my co-host John siracusa [TS]

00:00:14 ◼   ► could not find something wrong with it [TS]

00:00:16 ◼   ► there's nothing he can't complain hi [TS]

00:00:18 ◼   ► John [TS]

00:00:19 ◼   ► again I'm Dan benjamin and we'd like to [TS]

00:00:22 ◼   ► say thanks to Rackspace calm and Shopify [TS]

00:00:25 ◼   ► comm for making the show possible tell [TS]

00:00:27 ◼   ► you more about them as the program [TS]

00:00:29 ◼   ► continues but you know it's becoming [TS]

00:00:31 ◼   ► it's becoming a little bit of a of a a [TS]

00:00:34 ◼   ► stake of yours almost that the follow up [TS]

00:00:37 ◼   ► is most of the show know that the other [TS]

00:00:40 ◼   ► the other hosts of the other shows are [TS]

00:00:42 ◼   ► now they have something that they will [TS]

00:00:44 ◼   ► refer to as John siracusa mode anytime [TS]

00:00:49 ◼   ► they do follow if I can make them feel [TS]

00:00:52 ◼   ► that it's their responsibility to [TS]

00:00:53 ◼   ► address issues raised by listeners about [TS]

00:00:55 ◼   ► their previous show I feel I will have [TS]

00:00:57 ◼   ► succeeded I found out today you're 6 [TS]

00:01:00 ◼   ► foot 2 that's right [TS]

00:01:02 ◼   ► while I was in my youth now I'm a [TS]

00:01:04 ◼   ► hunched old man with or without the hair [TS]

00:01:06 ◼   ► that's without ok do you wet it down [TS]

00:01:13 ◼   ► when you take measurements to keep it [TS]

00:01:14 ◼   ► flat or one it squishes down you know [TS]

00:01:17 ◼   ► how tall you do you have some sort of a [TS]

00:01:19 ◼   ► Napoleon complex no I don't think so I'm [TS]

00:01:21 ◼   ► you know I'm average height in Korea [TS]

00:01:24 ◼   ► five seven five seven you know five [TS]

00:01:28 ◼   ► eight with a nice pair of shoes on five [TS]

00:01:32 ◼   ► five ten in a podium I'll file that away [TS]

00:01:35 ◼   ► mm-hmm lock lock it up all right so [TS]

00:01:40 ◼   ► you're ready for some fu fu yeah [TS]

00:01:43 ◼   ► what is the fu the follow-up follow-up [TS]

00:01:46 ◼   ► yeah I don't I don't think I want to [TS]

00:01:48 ◼   ► stick with that but it is a convenient [TS]

00:01:51 ◼   ► abbreviation I like it yeah let's do [TS]

00:01:55 ◼   ► that for you all right so uh last week [TS]

00:02:00 ◼   ► we talked about Apple's UI consistency [TS]

00:02:03 ◼   ► over the years and that that topic had [TS]

00:02:06 ◼   ► been our list for a long time and we [TS]

00:02:08 ◼   ► finally got to it because we're running [TS]

00:02:09 ◼   ► out of stuff but I know you wanted it [TS]

00:02:11 ◼   ► for a long time so I only got to it [TS]

00:02:13 ◼   ► and then after we finished recording [TS]

00:02:15 ◼   ► show I was catching up on the Twitter's [TS]

00:02:18 ◼   ► and I saw a tweet from mr. Merlin man [TS]

00:02:20 ◼   ► who was actually reply to me which is [TS]

00:02:23 ◼   ► strange because he normally doesn't [TS]

00:02:24 ◼   ► communicate with me on Twitter but this [TS]

00:02:26 ◼   ► time he did reply and I said hey I [TS]

00:02:27 ◼   ► listened to your UI consistency thing [TS]

00:02:29 ◼   ► and I think you would like this talk by [TS]

00:02:31 ◼   ► this other guy so I followed it and it [TS]

00:02:33 ◼   ► was a link to John Gruber's uh web stock [TS]

00:02:36 ◼   ► mm-hmm talk from this year and I like [TS]

00:02:38 ◼   ► wow I thought that one was in recorded [TS]

00:02:40 ◼   ► because I remember hearing him [TS]

00:02:41 ◼   ► complaining that they didn't record his [TS]

00:02:43 ◼   ► session and he was angry about it and it [TS]

00:02:44 ◼   ► turns out that was South by Southwest [TS]

00:02:45 ◼   ► that he was angry about not recording [TS]

00:02:48 ◼   ► and in fact it turns out that actually [TS]

00:02:49 ◼   ► did record South by Southwest [TS]

00:02:50 ◼   ► unbeknownst to him they only did auto [TS]

00:02:52 ◼   ► audio recording right but anyway so I'm [TS]

00:02:55 ◼   ► like great I'm gonna take a look at this [TS]

00:02:56 ◼   ► this talk now so later that day I [TS]

00:02:58 ◼   ► started watching the talk and he begins [TS]

00:03:00 ◼   ► and I'm like yeah he's kind of starting [TS]

00:03:03 ◼   ► the same place that I would be talking [TS]

00:03:04 ◼   ► about like the Mac is the first GUI and [TS]

00:03:06 ◼   ► what it meant to be a GUI and you know [TS]

00:03:08 ◼   ► that the days before the GUI existed and [TS]

00:03:11 ◼   ► then he starts talking about some [TS]

00:03:14 ◼   ► examples of the early GUI he brings up [TS]

00:03:16 ◼   ► that original Mac control panel so I'm [TS]

00:03:18 ◼   ► watching this thing with like a growing [TS]

00:03:19 ◼   ► sense of horror that every single thing [TS]

00:03:22 ◼   ► he's saying in this talk is something [TS]

00:03:23 ◼   ► that I just recorded in a podcast of [TS]

00:03:25 ◼   ► course the problem is that that web [TS]

00:03:26 ◼   ► stock talk was like months ago is that [TS]

00:03:28 ◼   ► like last month or something [TS]

00:03:30 ◼   ► I said no I'm like yeah I think it was a [TS]

00:03:32 ◼   ► nothing oh my god everybody who listens [TS]

00:03:34 ◼   ► to that episode is going to assume that [TS]

00:03:36 ◼   ► I either went to wyoweb stock or watched [TS]

00:03:38 ◼   ► the web stock talk and then just rehash [TS]

00:03:40 ◼   ► from an odd I don't think so at all and [TS]

00:03:42 ◼   ► but I swear to you I had not seen that [TS]

00:03:44 ◼   ► talk until after I recorded the episode [TS]

00:03:48 ◼   ► almost immediately after which is it was [TS]

00:03:49 ◼   ► just a horrible horrible experience no I [TS]

00:03:51 ◼   ► thought well let me let me chime in here [TS]

00:03:53 ◼   ► for a second I don't think you need to [TS]

00:03:55 ◼   ► worry about this at all because I think [TS]

00:03:57 ◼   ► first of all I didn't watch it either i [TS]

00:03:59 ◼   ► ID my only I only if I'm if John Gruber [TS]

00:04:03 ◼   ► is not talking to me on the talk show I [TS]

00:04:05 ◼   ► don't I don't want to hear his voice [TS]

00:04:06 ◼   ► so I read his stuff but I if I hear him [TS]

00:04:09 ◼   ► I want to talk back so I can't listen to [TS]

00:04:11 ◼   ► him talking in somewhere else it's too [TS]

00:04:13 ◼   ► difficult so I hadn't seen it either [TS]

00:04:16 ◼   ► otherwise I would have stopped you I [TS]

00:04:17 ◼   ► wouldn't let you go I wouldn't let you [TS]

00:04:18 ◼   ► you know I would have said oh it didn't [TS]

00:04:21 ◼   ► you see John Gruber's thing on I didn't [TS]

00:04:24 ◼   ► even know what he was talking about and [TS]

00:04:25 ◼   ► every time I asked him what how was your [TS]

00:04:27 ◼   ► talk he's like [TS]

00:04:27 ◼   ► I was all right so what'd you talk about [TS]

00:04:29 ◼   ► and he kind of you know changes the [TS]

00:04:31 ◼   ► subject yeah so I mean this is not an [TS]

00:04:35 ◼   ► uncommon thing amongst the two of us [TS]

00:04:38 ◼   ► where we will end up having the same [TS]

00:04:41 ◼   ► take on a particular topic to the point [TS]

00:04:44 ◼   ► where some people would think that we [TS]

00:04:45 ◼   ► collaborated beforehand on on various [TS]

00:04:47 ◼   ► things or that we're the same person or [TS]

00:04:49 ◼   ► anything like that but that's not the [TS]

00:04:51 ◼   ► case it just so happens that we end up [TS]

00:04:53 ◼   ► having the same things on this case it [TS]

00:04:54 ◼   ► was particularly spooky because we pick [TS]

00:04:55 ◼   ► like the same examples and stuff but [TS]

00:04:57 ◼   ► it's it's really strange to me [TS]

00:04:58 ◼   ► especially since you know you Gruber's [TS]

00:05:00 ◼   ► history with the Mack started pretty [TS]

00:05:02 ◼   ► late like I think in the past episode [TS]

00:05:04 ◼   ► with you who he talked about his first [TS]

00:05:05 ◼   ► night being an LC right maybe that was [TS]

00:05:08 ◼   ► in the talk but yeah but that's that's a [TS]

00:05:09 ◼   ► late comer right and I was there since [TS]

00:05:10 ◼   ► 1984 but we still end up with the same [TS]

00:05:12 ◼   ► take on things but the reason I bring [TS]

00:05:15 ◼   ► this up now is because if you watch the [TS]

00:05:17 ◼   ► whole talk even though there we start [TS]

00:05:21 ◼   ► off the same way and we choose a lot of [TS]

00:05:22 ◼   ► the same examples there is a divergence [TS]

00:05:24 ◼   ► there and I think the point that I was [TS]

00:05:26 ◼   ► making with some of those same examples [TS]

00:05:27 ◼   ► was different than the points that he [TS]

00:05:28 ◼   ► was making so my main point on on the [TS]

00:05:32 ◼   ► topics that we overlapped on was that [TS]

00:05:34 ◼   ► Apple has always sort of worked beyond [TS]

00:05:36 ◼   ► the bounds of its own UI guidelines but [TS]

00:05:41 ◼   ► Gruber's point in the talk was that the [TS]

00:05:45 ◼   ► change in the look of the GUI was a lot [TS]

00:05:47 ◼   ► slower in the beginning and it took a [TS]

00:05:50 ◼   ► bowl a while to feel confident that they [TS]

00:05:52 ◼   ► could start changing look in ways that [TS]

00:05:54 ◼   ► wouldn't confuse people sort of that in [TS]

00:05:56 ◼   ► my example that I was using was that [TS]

00:05:58 ◼   ► from that talk book of multiplex [TS]

00:05:59 ◼   ► meetings where you have the you know 20 [TS]

00:06:01 ◼   ► different versions of a house icon or [TS]

00:06:03 ◼   ► the the the classic Mac OS extension [TS]

00:06:06 ◼   ► puzzle pieces to face in all different [TS]

00:06:07 ◼   ► directions as long as people can tell [TS]

00:06:08 ◼   ► what it is it's ok so we were using that [TS]

00:06:14 ◼   ► we both took that control panel example [TS]

00:06:16 ◼   ► but he was using it as an example of [TS]

00:06:17 ◼   ► like look at this ey doesn't use labels [TS]

00:06:19 ◼   ► look at how different it is that what's [TS]

00:06:20 ◼   ► come before it and I was using it as an [TS]

00:06:22 ◼   ► example of how Apple wasn't beholden to [TS]

00:06:25 ◼   ► its own guidelines from day one and they [TS]

00:06:26 ◼   ► made this window completely filled with [TS]

00:06:28 ◼   ► non-standard controls the only standard [TS]

00:06:29 ◼   ► control on the entire thing was the [TS]

00:06:30 ◼   ► title bar so even though we use the same [TS]

00:06:33 ◼   ► example I think we made very different [TS]

00:06:34 ◼   ► points now in the end you say is a last [TS]

00:06:38 ◼   ► episode in his talk of a contradictory [TS]

00:06:41 ◼   ► are they you know completely at odds I [TS]

00:06:43 ◼   ► don't think they're completely at odds [TS]

00:06:45 ◼   ► they do make a lot of the same points [TS]

00:06:46 ◼   ► especially about how you can change the [TS]

00:06:48 ◼   ► look of something and as long as people [TS]

00:06:50 ◼   ► can still tell what it is it's fine and [TS]

00:06:52 ◼   ► the the role of fashion in design and [TS]

00:06:54 ◼   ► how changing the look actually has has a [TS]

00:06:57 ◼   ► purpose it's not just arbitrary the [TS]

00:07:00 ◼   ► place where I think we would diverge is [TS]

00:07:02 ◼   ► that a Gruber seems to contend that [TS]

00:07:04 ◼   ► Apple followed the Haig to the letter in [TS]

00:07:06 ◼   ► the old days like he's positing a time [TS]

00:07:08 ◼   ► when Apple conformed more strictly to to [TS]

00:07:11 ◼   ► human interface guidelines and I think [TS]

00:07:14 ◼   ► his example has since he used that [TS]

00:07:16 ◼   ► control panel example example from [TS]

00:07:17 ◼   ► earlier in his talk contradicts that [TS]

00:07:18 ◼   ► that you know maybe the look of the [TS]

00:07:21 ◼   ► entire OS didn't changes as quickly but [TS]

00:07:24 ◼   ► certainly Apple was never a slave to the [TS]

00:07:26 ◼   ► Haig and I don't think there was ever a [TS]

00:07:28 ◼   ► time that Apple was like that where I [TS]

00:07:29 ◼   ► think we would agree is that when he [TS]

00:07:31 ◼   ► goes into this the middle time of the [TS]

00:07:33 ◼   ► Mac where there was sort of an [TS]

00:07:35 ◼   ► exuberance of a variation where we had [TS]

00:07:38 ◼   ► kaleidoscope and he talks about be view [TS]

00:07:39 ◼   ► of the thing that made your windows look [TS]

00:07:40 ◼   ► like BOS he trots out the high tech and [TS]

00:07:43 ◼   ► the gizmo and drawing board themes from [TS]

00:07:44 ◼   ► Apple there was that period where they [TS]

00:07:45 ◼   ► were really like there were no rules and [TS]

00:07:47 ◼   ► there was lots of experimentation we [TS]

00:07:49 ◼   ► finally were being removed from the [TS]

00:07:51 ◼   ► bounds of everything looking exactly the [TS]

00:07:52 ◼   ► same so I think we would agree on that [TS]

00:07:55 ◼   ► point but where we differ is that I [TS]

00:07:58 ◼   ► think it was an apple that follow things [TS]

00:08:01 ◼   ► to letter in the old days it was the [TS]

00:08:02 ◼   ► developers did that's what I tried to [TS]

00:08:04 ◼   ► get into a talk of saying how like Apple [TS]

00:08:06 ◼   ► put out these guidelines and the people [TS]

00:08:07 ◼   ► who are enthusiastic for the platform [TS]

00:08:08 ◼   ► felt compelled to treat the guidelines [TS]

00:08:11 ◼   ► as Bible as a way of advancing the [TS]

00:08:13 ◼   ► platform and it wasn't so much Apple it [TS]

00:08:14 ◼   ► was the very enthusiastic supporters and [TS]

00:08:18 ◼   ► advocates of the platform that were you [TS]

00:08:21 ◼   ► know signed up to the Hague is the Bible [TS]

00:08:23 ◼   ► not Apple itself they made some good [TS]

00:08:26 ◼   ► points later but it's just in the [TS]

00:08:27 ◼   ► consistency in uniformity my favorite [TS]

00:08:30 ◼   ► one was where he mentioned that Jobs had [TS]

00:08:33 ◼   ► gotten rid of the idea of everything [TS]

00:08:36 ◼   ► looking exactly the same he wanted [TS]

00:08:38 ◼   ► things to be consistent but then had to [TS]

00:08:39 ◼   ► look exactly the same but then he pulls [TS]

00:08:40 ◼   ► up a slide that he said I think it's [TS]

00:08:42 ◼   ► funny the guy who came up with this is [TS]

00:08:43 ◼   ► known for having a uniform and it shows [TS]

00:08:45 ◼   ► 20 different pictures of jobs and he's [TS]

00:08:46 ◼   ► always wearing of course the same outfit [TS]

00:08:47 ◼   ► the black mock turtleneck in the jeans [TS]

00:08:49 ◼   ► if people haven't seen this talk it's in [TS]

00:08:52 ◼   ► the show notes and actually now thanks [TS]

00:08:53 ◼   ► to your website change [TS]

00:08:54 ◼   ► you can see the show notes during the [TS]

00:08:56 ◼   ► show if you go to the or is it five by [TS]

00:08:59 ◼   ► five dot TV slash hypercritical slash [TS]

00:09:01 ◼   ► next net slash next I'll every time will [TS]

00:09:04 ◼   ► take you to whatever the the next show [TS]

00:09:06 ◼   ► is for you and if there is no next show [TS]

00:09:08 ◼   ► yet it means we haven't started [TS]

00:09:09 ◼   ► collecting links but at any point you [TS]

00:09:11 ◼   ► can go there as soon as we start getting [TS]

00:09:14 ◼   ► ready free you can add comments and and [TS]

00:09:17 ◼   ► all that stuff there yeah so I suggest [TS]

00:09:18 ◼   ► uh even even if you have listened the [TS]

00:09:21 ◼   ► last episode I was suggested watching [TS]

00:09:24 ◼   ► his talk anyway even though some of the [TS]

00:09:26 ◼   ► same points are made there are enough [TS]

00:09:27 ◼   ► new points in there that you should [TS]

00:09:28 ◼   ► definitely take a look at it there's [TS]

00:09:29 ◼   ► some good good slides in there alright [TS]

00:09:33 ◼   ► and ants on the same topic last on last [TS]

00:09:36 ◼   ► week's show sort of snuck into the [TS]

00:09:38 ◼   ► follow-up was a topic that was not [TS]

00:09:39 ◼   ► actually a fallout post kind of follow [TS]

00:09:41 ◼   ► up we talked about Facebook's open [TS]

00:09:43 ◼   ► source data center initiative I think [TS]

00:09:45 ◼   ► that was kind of a follow up as to the [TS]

00:09:47 ◼   ► yeah yeah online stuff in this case I [TS]

00:09:50 ◼   ► knew that John Stokes Ars Technica had [TS]

00:09:52 ◼   ► written an article about it [TS]

00:09:53 ◼   ► I think either earlier that day at the [TS]

00:09:55 ◼   ► previous day and I intentionally didn't [TS]

00:09:56 ◼   ► read it so I wouldn't be spoiled so but [TS]

00:09:58 ◼   ► what it turns out is a my take on that [TS]

00:10:00 ◼   ► situation was the same as his I don't [TS]

00:10:02 ◼   ► think that's a big surprise just because [TS]

00:10:04 ◼   ► it's kind of obvious what Facebook is [TS]

00:10:06 ◼   ► doing I don't think there's any [TS]

00:10:07 ◼   ► particular insight that either one of us [TS]

00:10:09 ◼   ► had there but he did a good write-up on [TS]

00:10:10 ◼   ► that and I put that link in the show [TS]

00:10:11 ◼   ► notes so you know that's another example [TS]

00:10:15 ◼   ► of you said if something happens and [TS]

00:10:17 ◼   ► seven people have the same opinion on [TS]

00:10:19 ◼   ► doesn't mean they collaborate it just [TS]

00:10:20 ◼   ► means that there are some obvious [TS]

00:10:21 ◼   ► conclusions that can be drawn from the [TS]

00:10:23 ◼   ► same facts that everyone has available [TS]

00:10:24 ◼   ► to them alright so now for some actual [TS]

00:10:27 ◼   ► follow up a little bit of feedback on [TS]

00:10:30 ◼   ► the the funny look in iCal and lion I [TS]

00:10:33 ◼   ► got some opinions in different [TS]

00:10:36 ◼   ► directions here but someone brought up a [TS]

00:10:37 ◼   ► good point about how making making [TS]

00:10:41 ◼   ► windows look just completely different [TS]

00:10:43 ◼   ► from all the windows regardless of [TS]

00:10:46 ◼   ► whether it's ugly or not there has a [TS]

00:10:47 ◼   ► benefit of making it easy to find on the [TS]

00:10:50 ◼   ► screen so I Cal is this big ugly you [TS]

00:10:53 ◼   ► know brown looking giant toolbar thing [TS]

00:10:56 ◼   ► it's really easy to pick that out on the [TS]

00:10:58 ◼   ► screen [TS]

00:10:58 ◼   ► as opposed to just a giant gray toolbar [TS]

00:11:01 ◼   ► which blends in with all your other or [TS]

00:11:03 ◼   ► anything John great tool box now there's [TS]

00:11:04 ◼   ► a limit to that you know one app gets to [TS]

00:11:05 ◼   ► be like that fine but if every app is a [TS]

00:11:07 ◼   ► different color [TS]

00:11:08 ◼   ► you now lose the ability to pick stuff [TS]

00:11:10 ◼   ► out because it's just like looking at a [TS]

00:11:12 ◼   ► big screen full of plaid you know but I [TS]

00:11:16 ◼   ► think that was a good point where that's [TS]

00:11:18 ◼   ► kind of the advantage of the Apple hats [TS]

00:11:19 ◼   ► of Apple decides to make some super [TS]

00:11:20 ◼   ► important app look weird like the set [TS]

00:11:23 ◼   ► for the finder for instance they decide [TS]

00:11:25 ◼   ► to make the Finder windows green with [TS]

00:11:26 ◼   ► grass on them and nobody else could have [TS]

00:11:28 ◼   ► that look because you know you can't [TS]

00:11:29 ◼   ► theme the OS and you don't want to put [TS]

00:11:31 ◼   ► custom windows on all of your things so [TS]

00:11:32 ◼   ► you'd see the finder window stand out [TS]

00:11:34 ◼   ► this it look green well Apple can do [TS]

00:11:36 ◼   ► that with the app that it knows [TS]

00:11:38 ◼   ► everybody has to run because it launches [TS]

00:11:39 ◼   ► when you log in and it can kind of be [TS]

00:11:41 ◼   ► the only one to do it but if it becomes [TS]

00:11:43 ◼   ► a trend then it just you know it stops [TS]

00:11:46 ◼   ► being an advantage so I would not hold [TS]

00:11:49 ◼   ► that up as a reason to justify I can't [TS]

00:11:51 ◼   ► looking funny in lyon but it may be a [TS]

00:11:55 ◼   ► practical result of iCal looking funny [TS]

00:11:57 ◼   ► is that it'll be a lot easier to find [TS]

00:11:58 ◼   ► that iCal window [TS]

00:11:59 ◼   ► assuming every other Apple app doesn't [TS]

00:12:00 ◼   ► also have some crazy new look I think [TS]

00:12:04 ◼   ► but I think that's what we're going to [TS]

00:12:05 ◼   ► anticipate is that every amp is going to [TS]

00:12:07 ◼   ► have a weird new look they can't do it [TS]

00:12:09 ◼   ► with everyone - and they don't care [TS]

00:12:11 ◼   ► enough like what are they gonna make [TS]

00:12:12 ◼   ► terminal look different now it's gonna [TS]

00:12:14 ◼   ► be great windows everywhere [TS]

00:12:15 ◼   ► I don't expect there were some pictures [TS]

00:12:17 ◼   ► of address book looking different - but [TS]

00:12:19 ◼   ► those are kind of a piece you know it's [TS]

00:12:21 ◼   ► like if there's an if there's an iPad [TS]

00:12:23 ◼   ► equivalent of the app maybe they'll try [TS]

00:12:25 ◼   ► to sync up the look among them on the [TS]

00:12:26 ◼   ► iCal versions all have some sort of [TS]

00:12:27 ◼   ► strange look on them so we'll see but I [TS]

00:12:30 ◼   ► really don't expect like Safari to get [TS]

00:12:32 ◼   ► all weird the Finder terminal activity [TS]

00:12:35 ◼   ► viewer I mean there's a limit you know [TS]

00:12:38 ◼   ► so I related this as someone brought up [TS]

00:12:41 ◼   ► the reverse of this where Apple takes a [TS]

00:12:44 ◼   ► UI element that previously had a [TS]

00:12:46 ◼   ► distinct look and makes it all the same [TS]

00:12:47 ◼   ► and they're doing that a lot with [TS]

00:12:49 ◼   ► toolbar buttons making them look sort of [TS]

00:12:51 ◼   ► like they do when the iPad apps where [TS]

00:12:53 ◼   ► it's just kind of like a gray silhouette [TS]

00:12:55 ◼   ► like it's stamped into the toolbar right [TS]

00:12:57 ◼   ► all monochrome right and that makes them [TS]

00:13:00 ◼   ► much less distinct than when they were [TS]

00:13:01 ◼   ► colorful photographic looking yeah [TS]

00:13:04 ◼   ► icons and so now when you look at the [TS]

00:13:06 ◼   ► tight the title bar the toolbar of an [TS]

00:13:08 ◼   ► app and you want to find the button for [TS]

00:13:10 ◼   ► like you know reply to email or you know [TS]

00:13:12 ◼   ► for word or whatever now you're just [TS]

00:13:13 ◼   ► looking based on shape instead of color [TS]

00:13:15 ◼   ► you know you still got position but it [TS]

00:13:17 ◼   ► seems it seems though like for a long [TS]

00:13:20 ◼   ► time one of the [TS]

00:13:22 ◼   ► I don't know if I would call it a [TS]

00:13:25 ◼   ► feature but I mean even the term aqua I [TS]

00:13:28 ◼   ► mean everything about Mac os10 was [TS]

00:13:31 ◼   ► colorful and poppin and shiny and and [TS]

00:13:34 ◼   ► they've just have gone continuously more [TS]

00:13:36 ◼   ► and more and more toward a monochrome [TS]

00:13:39 ◼   ► kind of a look now they have been [TS]

00:13:42 ◼   ► leeching the color out a lot I mean you [TS]

00:13:43 ◼   ► saw them do it with iTunes most recently [TS]

00:13:45 ◼   ► right and the i io s apps tend to have a [TS]

00:13:48 ◼   ► lot of color leached out of them too but [TS]

00:13:49 ◼   ► they go off another direct light I mean [TS]

00:13:51 ◼   ► you would definitely not say that the [TS]

00:13:53 ◼   ► new the Lion I Cal has the color leech [TS]

00:13:54 ◼   ► data but its exact opposite sorry they [TS]

00:13:57 ◼   ► pick their battles but it seems like [TS]

00:13:59 ◼   ► this is this is a look they're [TS]

00:14:00 ◼   ► cultivating for like the serious kind of [TS]

00:14:04 ◼   ► application it's monochrome look at [TS]

00:14:05 ◼   ► Final Cut Pro 10 which was revealed this [TS]

00:14:07 ◼   ► week that interface looks like looks [TS]

00:14:10 ◼   ► like the high-tech theme practically [TS]

00:14:11 ◼   ► from from very Copeland [TS]

00:14:13 ◼   ► you know it's all jet black with like [TS]

00:14:15 ◼   ► light gray stuff on it and maybe some [TS]

00:14:17 ◼   ► like blinky fake looking LED things so I [TS]

00:14:24 ◼   ► don't know I think they're just [TS]

00:14:26 ◼   ► cultivating many different looks and [TS]

00:14:28 ◼   ► deciding where each one is appropriate I [TS]

00:14:29 ◼   ► think they're back into experimentation [TS]

00:14:31 ◼   ► I think it was the quiet period was a [TS]

00:14:33 ◼   ► leopard and Snow Leopard where [TS]

00:14:34 ◼   ► everything went gray and they finally [TS]

00:14:35 ◼   ► got rid of brush mail and everything [TS]

00:14:37 ◼   ► else and they just had like a reset time [TS]

00:14:38 ◼   ► and now I think they're experimenting [TS]

00:14:39 ◼   ► again one more one more follow-up item I [TS]

00:14:44 ◼   ► think we can fit in here okay [TS]

00:14:46 ◼   ► so there was a link that went around [TS]

00:14:48 ◼   ► that's in the show notes about how TiVo [TS]

00:14:50 ◼   ► was sending out surveys to its customers [TS]

00:14:52 ◼   ► and it was like you you had a hundred [TS]

00:14:55 ◼   ► points to to spread on the survey among [TS]

00:14:58 ◼   ► a big list of features and you were [TS]

00:15:00 ◼   ► supposed to distribute your points [TS]

00:15:01 ◼   ► according to how much you wanted the [TS]

00:15:04 ◼   ► particular feature so Engadget posted [TS]

00:15:06 ◼   ► this and they posted the entire list of [TS]

00:15:07 ◼   ► features that you were allowed to spread [TS]

00:15:08 ◼   ► them along and it's a big list like 30 [TS]

00:15:10 ◼   ► features or something like that I mean [TS]

00:15:11 ◼   ► so I read through the whole thing I [TS]

00:15:13 ◼   ► don't know why I'm bothered by cooking [TS]

00:15:14 ◼   ► before I read it I knew the types of [TS]

00:15:16 ◼   ► features that they would be asking about [TS]

00:15:17 ◼   ► would not make me happy so they asked [TS]

00:15:20 ◼   ► about features like a multi-room viewing [TS]

00:15:21 ◼   ► which a lot of the DVRs that you get [TS]

00:15:24 ◼   ► from your cable company can do or use [TS]

00:15:26 ◼   ► that you pay for one DVR and then the [TS]

00:15:27 ◼   ► second room you have another little [TS]

00:15:28 ◼   ► smaller cheaper box that lets you see [TS]

00:15:30 ◼   ► stuff on the other DVR so you don't have [TS]

00:15:32 ◼   ► these islands of content in your house [TS]

00:15:34 ◼   ► then you can just have one DVR that [TS]

00:15:35 ◼   ► requires a bunch of [TS]

00:15:36 ◼   ► stuff you can watch it anywhere and [TS]

00:15:39 ◼   ► they're talking about a Fortuner model [TS]

00:15:41 ◼   ► and a whole bunch of a whole bunch of [TS]

00:15:43 ◼   ► obvious software features that they [TS]

00:15:44 ◼   ► should have had years ago that I don't [TS]

00:15:45 ◼   ► know why they're asking about would you [TS]

00:15:46 ◼   ► like it if you have a HD version of the [TS]

00:15:48 ◼   ► channel that we give you the ability to [TS]

00:15:50 ◼   ► hide the SD version yes of course why [TS]

00:15:51 ◼   ► would I ever watch the SD version ever I [TS]

00:15:54 ◼   ► don't even want to see it but no they [TS]

00:15:55 ◼   ► have to survey about this this drives me [TS]

00:15:57 ◼   ► nuts so reading this is making me angry [TS]

00:15:58 ◼   ► especially since the key features that I [TS]

00:16:00 ◼   ► think are most important are not listed [TS]

00:16:01 ◼   ► for the same reason they usually not [TS]

00:16:03 ◼   ► listed and it's like a sickness that [TS]

00:16:05 ◼   ► companies have where they they start [TS]

00:16:07 ◼   ► seeing things in terms of feature bullet [TS]

00:16:09 ◼   ► points and they can't they can't [TS]

00:16:10 ◼   ► understand what's actually wrong with [TS]

00:16:12 ◼   ► their product what's actually wrong with [TS]

00:16:13 ◼   ► TiVo is the freaking box is slow slow [TS]

00:16:15 ◼   ► and ugly and just you know things should [TS]

00:16:18 ◼   ► not take that long and they get slower [TS]

00:16:19 ◼   ► with time and this is nowhere on the [TS]

00:16:21 ◼   ► list I'm not going to say would you like [TS]

00:16:22 ◼   ► it if the menus came out faster because [TS]

00:16:23 ◼   ► people are gonna be like yeah maybe [TS]

00:16:24 ◼   ► maybe not people will not ask for this [TS]

00:16:26 ◼   ► but you have to give it to them they [TS]

00:16:27 ◼   ► don't this you know they don't [TS]

00:16:29 ◼   ► understand they can say well we want to [TS]

00:16:30 ◼   ► spend X millions of dollars to make our [TS]

00:16:31 ◼   ► user interface faster it's faster what [TS]

00:16:33 ◼   ► do you mean people don't complain about [TS]

00:16:34 ◼   ► it being slow it's fine they don't [TS]

00:16:36 ◼   ► understand that you know people are not [TS]

00:16:37 ◼   ► going to ask for it if if iOS never [TS]

00:16:39 ◼   ► existed and it was just Android tablets [TS]

00:16:41 ◼   ► and stuff like that [TS]

00:16:42 ◼   ► it'll be like a look at the zoom tablet [TS]

00:16:44 ◼   ► it's amazing and I can zoom and look at [TS]

00:16:46 ◼   ► these Android things they're awesome if [TS]

00:16:47 ◼   ► you've never seen ILS and how it sticks [TS]

00:16:48 ◼   ► to your fingers when you move in stuff [TS]

00:16:50 ◼   ► you don't know you're missing it users [TS]

00:16:51 ◼   ► will not ask you for a more responsive [TS]

00:16:53 ◼   ► interface but when you give them more [TS]

00:16:54 ◼   ► responsive interface they will prefer [TS]

00:16:56 ◼   ► that over the less responsive one even [TS]

00:16:58 ◼   ► if they don't know why it is that they [TS]

00:16:59 ◼   ► prefer it I think you know the [TS]

00:17:01 ◼   ► experience of iOS is born then out and [TS]

00:17:02 ◼   ► the fact that TiVo is getting slower [TS]

00:17:04 ◼   ► with time and instead of even just [TS]

00:17:05 ◼   ► staying the same let alone getting [TS]

00:17:06 ◼   ► faster as it should with the huge [TS]

00:17:08 ◼   ► advances in technology we've had since [TS]

00:17:09 ◼   ► like 2000 just frustrating so I'm I did [TS]

00:17:14 ◼   ► not like that feature list if I had if I [TS]

00:17:17 ◼   ► had gotten that server I would have [TS]

00:17:18 ◼   ► written a new option put all hundred [TS]

00:17:19 ◼   ► points on it said make your user [TS]

00:17:21 ◼   ► interface faster ah all right now I love [TS]

00:17:25 ◼   ► when you go off on a rant like that I [TS]

00:17:27 ◼   ► can't I can't take it I feel like hey [TS]

00:17:29 ◼   ► dude six more shows just about TiVo like [TS]

00:17:31 ◼   ► we should just have you know guests in [TS]

00:17:34 ◼   ► the show and say do you own a TiVo name [TS]

00:17:35 ◼   ► the seven thing obvious things that TiVo [TS]

00:17:37 ◼   ► could do to be better that I've driven [TS]

00:17:38 ◼   ► you crazy for the past decade that they [TS]

00:17:40 ◼   ► had refused to do so a real a roundtable [TS]

00:17:45 ◼   ► everybody takes a turn it's just you [TS]

00:17:47 ◼   ► know I still feel like if you took ten [TS]

00:17:49 ◼   ► people off the street who [TS]

00:17:50 ◼   ► you see though they would get you a list [TS]

00:17:52 ◼   ► of features implement you don't need to [TS]

00:17:53 ◼   ► survey people and have them distribute a [TS]

00:17:55 ◼   ► hundred points and all these ridiculous [TS]

00:17:56 ◼   ► esoteric features yeah people should [TS]

00:18:00 ◼   ► follow the link and read the features [TS]

00:18:02 ◼   ► like there they're picking it the these [TS]

00:18:05 ◼   ► little you know fringes around the edges [TS]

00:18:08 ◼   ► when the entire carpet is on fire I [TS]

00:18:09 ◼   ► don't then now I can't think of a good [TS]

00:18:11 ◼   ► one you're too upset yeah all right so [TS]

00:18:17 ◼   ► do we have a topic for today's show we [TS]

00:18:19 ◼   ► do you didn't you're not even looking at [TS]

00:18:21 ◼   ► the I don't look anymore I just want I [TS]

00:18:23 ◼   ► just I'm on autopilot I'm doing it [TS]

00:18:25 ◼   ► myself I like you so you're surprised [TS]

00:18:27 ◼   ► when you come in the show you want to [TS]

00:18:28 ◼   ► guess what the topic is didn't look at [TS]

00:18:30 ◼   ► all [TS]

00:18:31 ◼   ► well let me look at the look at these [TS]

00:18:33 ◼   ► notes here I I put it on the yeah did [TS]

00:18:38 ◼   ► you you put it in Big O in the top now I [TS]

00:18:41 ◼   ► haven't gone on the topics page but I [TS]

00:18:42 ◼   ► can look at these links yeah and you can [TS]

00:18:45 ◼   ► guess I see the word Copeland about five [TS]

00:18:48 ◼   ► or six times yeah and speaking of words [TS]

00:18:50 ◼   ► that like you know you pronounce in your [TS]

00:18:52 ◼   ► head it for a long time before you have [TS]

00:18:54 ◼   ► to say them out loud so I read about [TS]

00:18:55 ◼   ► this operating system for years and [TS]

00:18:57 ◼   ► years in my in my youth and I always [TS]

00:19:00 ◼   ► pronounced it in my head Copland comp [TS]

00:19:02 ◼   ► which is not how you pronounce it [TS]

00:19:03 ◼   ► because is named after the composer was [TS]

00:19:05 ◼   ► it Aaron Aaron Copland so I'm working [TS]

00:19:07 ◼   ► really hard in the past decade or so to [TS]

00:19:09 ◼   ► say Copeland Copeland it's just a very [TS]

00:19:11 ◼   ► with just a straightforward variable [TS]

00:19:13 ◼   ► substitution you just need to run yeah [TS]

00:19:15 ◼   ► it's working pretty well so far we'll [TS]

00:19:17 ◼   ► see if I can get through this without [TS]

00:19:18 ◼   ► slipping up so this is this is a great [TS]

00:19:20 ◼   ► topic this is an awesome topic and let [TS]

00:19:22 ◼   ► actually before we dive in because I [TS]

00:19:23 ◼   ► have a feeling that you're going to [TS]

00:19:24 ◼   ► you've got a lot to say about this one [TS]

00:19:26 ◼   ► so before we start it let's do the first [TS]

00:19:29 ◼   ► sponsor is that okay yeah all right so [TS]

00:19:32 ◼   ► we want to thank Rackspace do you [TS]

00:19:34 ◼   ► remember John back in February Rackspace [TS]

00:19:36 ◼   ► asked if if listeners of this show and [TS]

00:19:39 ◼   ► other shows had what it takes to be king [TS]

00:19:42 ◼   ► of the apps you remember that contest [TS]

00:19:44 ◼   ► king of the apps vaguely okay so a whole [TS]

00:19:46 ◼   ► bunch of people took up the challenge [TS]

00:19:48 ◼   ► and basically was to create an [TS]

00:19:50 ◼   ► application on top of Rackspace cloud [TS]

00:19:52 ◼   ► files didn't matter what your [TS]

00:19:53 ◼   ► application was and they're going to [TS]

00:19:56 ◼   ► give you $10,000 oh yeah now I remember [TS]

00:19:58 ◼   ► okay did you apply did you do this I did [TS]

00:20:00 ◼   ► not that would be conflict of interest [TS]

00:20:02 ◼   ► I'd say go for it this time because it's [TS]

00:20:04 ◼   ► as round too anyway they announced it [TS]

00:20:06 ◼   ► snap appointments they were crowned king [TS]

00:20:08 ◼   ► of the apps in at South by Southwest now [TS]

00:20:11 ◼   ► round two you have to submit your app by [TS]

00:20:13 ◼   ► May 2nd all you need to do is build an [TS]

00:20:16 ◼   ► app that works on cloud files Rackspace [TS]

00:20:18 ◼   ► cloud files it anything you can imagine [TS]

00:20:20 ◼   ► as long as it uses that you could win [TS]

00:20:22 ◼   ► 10,000 bucks [TS]

00:20:24 ◼   ► and the the winner will be announced [TS]

00:20:25 ◼   ► dead Interop Las Vegas are you gonna be [TS]

00:20:27 ◼   ► there not me no you're not going to as a [TS]

00:20:30 ◼   ► representative no ok that's your choice [TS]

00:20:34 ◼   ► so anyway you can find out all the [TS]

00:20:35 ◼   ► details and find out how you could win [TS]

00:20:37 ◼   ► $10,000 at Rackspace comm slash king of [TS]

00:20:41 ◼   ► the apps and their slogan for this is [TS]

00:20:44 ◼   ► showcase triumph defend I like that [TS]

00:20:50 ◼   ► 10,000 but what would you do with 10,000 [TS]

00:20:52 ◼   ► bucks if you just built you wrote a [TS]

00:20:54 ◼   ► little app and got 10 grand you know [TS]

00:20:57 ◼   ► what I would do with it it's the most [TS]

00:20:59 ◼   ► boring answer ever but it's true [TS]

00:21:01 ◼   ► buy more TiVo's no it goes right into [TS]

00:21:03 ◼   ► the kids college fund that's a good [TS]

00:21:05 ◼   ► thing to do with it better than TiVo [TS]

00:21:07 ◼   ► yeah boring though so Copeland was I'll [TS]

00:21:10 ◼   ► close the Wikipedia page Copeland was a [TS]

00:21:12 ◼   ► project at Apple computer to create an [TS]

00:21:14 ◼   ► updated version of the Macintosh [TS]

00:21:16 ◼   ► operating system was to have introduced [TS]

00:21:19 ◼   ► protected memory pre-emptive [TS]

00:21:21 ◼   ► multitasking and a number of new [TS]

00:21:22 ◼   ► underlying operating system features yet [TS]

00:21:25 ◼   ► still be compatible with existing Mac [TS]

00:21:27 ◼   ► software you know this is not where I [TS]

00:21:30 ◼   ► that's not how I start things though I [TS]

00:21:31 ◼   ► know I always have to go back let's go [TS]

00:21:34 ◼   ► back further but there's people who are [TS]

00:21:36 ◼   ► going to say Copeland what do I care [TS]

00:21:37 ◼   ► about Copeland for now at least I know [TS]

00:21:38 ◼   ► you're talking about there's a lot of [TS]

00:21:41 ◼   ► people that they dare their introduction [TS]

00:21:43 ◼   ► even know what cup 1 to Mac OS 10 is [TS]

00:21:46 ◼   ► 10.2 a lot of people just got their [TS]

00:21:50 ◼   ► first MacBook you know I know well so I [TS]

00:21:53 ◼   ► mean it's so you don't want to take some [TS]

00:21:55 ◼   ► back in now 1969 a Woodstock when you [TS]

00:21:59 ◼   ► know was was you know tripping out and [TS]

00:22:01 ◼   ► had an idea for something you know let [TS]

00:22:02 ◼   ► give him a framework well I mean it's [TS]

00:22:05 ◼   ► alright so we'll come back to Copeland [TS]

00:22:07 ◼   ► but I'll start from this is a talk [TS]

00:22:10 ◼   ► that's about a series of articles I [TS]

00:22:11 ◼   ► wrote many years ago in 2005 and the [TS]

00:22:15 ◼   ► tight [TS]

00:22:15 ◼   ► the article series was avoiding copeland [TS]

00:22:17 ◼   ► 2010 and it was written in 2005 so the [TS]

00:22:22 ◼   ► premise underlying this entire series of [TS]

00:22:25 ◼   ► arc was his articles is article was like [TS]

00:22:27 ◼   ► at a point it was trying to say you know [TS]

00:22:30 ◼   ► to predict the future and warned about [TS]

00:22:31 ◼   ► something that can happen right so the [TS]

00:22:34 ◼   ► premise which i'm going to lay out now [TS]

00:22:35 ◼   ► most people if you just give them the [TS]

00:22:37 ◼   ► premise in isolation agree with and you [TS]

00:22:39 ◼   ► know without even thinking about like [TS]

00:22:41 ◼   ► it's obviously everybody knows that it's [TS]

00:22:43 ◼   ► you know it's not worth even discussing [TS]

00:22:45 ◼   ► though we don't need to be explicit [TS]

00:22:47 ◼   ► about this premise we all agree but when [TS]

00:22:49 ◼   ► i'm done and i start trying to use that [TS]

00:22:53 ◼   ► premise to extrapolate and draw [TS]

00:22:54 ◼   ► conclusions then people will come back [TS]

00:22:56 ◼   ► and challenge the premise so we'll see [TS]

00:22:57 ◼   ► if that happens with you here or any of [TS]

00:23:00 ◼   ► the listeners so the premise is that [TS]

00:23:04 ◼   ► abstraction increases over time in the [TS]

00:23:07 ◼   ► computer industry you could take off the [TS]

00:23:09 ◼   ► computer interesting qualifier just say [TS]

00:23:10 ◼   ► abstract can increases over time period [TS]

00:23:12 ◼   ► because it's sort of the basis of all [TS]

00:23:14 ◼   ► human progress where it's systems built [TS]

00:23:16 ◼   ► upon systems where someone figures after [TS]

00:23:18 ◼   ► to do some small thing and then the next [TS]

00:23:20 ◼   ► generation comes along and they figure [TS]

00:23:21 ◼   ► out how to do something built on the [TS]

00:23:23 ◼   ► previous system because i don't have to [TS]

00:23:25 ◼   ► worry about that one it's been figured [TS]

00:23:26 ◼   ► out so they could build something more [TS]

00:23:27 ◼   ► complicated on top of it well in [TS]

00:23:29 ◼   ► computers that has sort of played out [TS]

00:23:31 ◼   ► very very quickly much more quickly than [TS]

00:23:33 ◼   ► just like all of human history where [TS]

00:23:36 ◼   ► computers just came into existence you [TS]

00:23:38 ◼   ► know within a human lifetime or two and [TS]

00:23:41 ◼   ► we've gone so far since then so I'm [TS]

00:23:44 ◼   ► going to speak specifically about [TS]

00:23:45 ◼   ► programming computers what do you have [TS]

00:23:47 ◼   ► to do to tell a computer what to do and [TS]

00:23:50 ◼   ► and this sort of briefly go through the [TS]

00:23:52 ◼   ► progression that's made so in the [TS]

00:23:53 ◼   ► beginning ignoring the phase where you [TS]

00:23:56 ◼   ► had just toggle switches and people were [TS]

00:23:57 ◼   ► just you know flipping switches on and [TS]

00:23:58 ◼   ► off to enter binary in the beginning [TS]

00:24:00 ◼   ► when you had program programmable [TS]

00:24:01 ◼   ► computers people were programming with [TS]

00:24:02 ◼   ► machine code which means you would enter [TS]

00:24:05 ◼   ► basically just a series of ones and [TS]

00:24:06 ◼   ► zeros that would the computer would [TS]

00:24:09 ◼   ► interpret as instructions you know this [TS]

00:24:11 ◼   ► this particular number means this [TS]

00:24:13 ◼   ► instruction and the next number is an [TS]

00:24:15 ◼   ► address in the next number is a value is [TS]

00:24:17 ◼   ► so on and so forth that's how is it von [TS]

00:24:20 ◼   ► Neumann machines am i pronouncing that [TS]

00:24:21 ◼   ► correctly I think so you see there von [TS]

00:24:23 ◼   ► Neumann or no I'm on I don't know why go [TS]

00:24:27 ◼   ► with Norman let's go with Norman anyway [TS]

00:24:29 ◼   ► it's the idea [TS]

00:24:29 ◼   ► of you have a big set of memory that [TS]

00:24:31 ◼   ► contains both your data and your [TS]

00:24:33 ◼   ► instructions then you have a CPU that [TS]

00:24:34 ◼   ► reads from the program from memory and [TS]

00:24:37 ◼   ► excuse these instructions and back in [TS]

00:24:39 ◼   ► the day when people made the first [TS]

00:24:40 ◼   ► computers that's how you would program [TS]

00:24:42 ◼   ► it you have to put in the numbers that [TS]

00:24:43 ◼   ► the CPU would eat and perform the actual [TS]

00:24:46 ◼   ► task now no one wants to just enter in [TS]

00:24:47 ◼   ► long strings of binary or hexadecimal or [TS]

00:24:49 ◼   ► anything numbers because it's ridiculous [TS]

00:24:51 ◼   ► so the next phase was assembly code [TS]

00:24:53 ◼   ► where they gave you symbolic [TS]

00:24:55 ◼   ► representations of these numbers where [TS]

00:24:56 ◼   ► the instruction for you know moving a [TS]

00:24:59 ◼   ► value from one register to another we're [TS]

00:25:01 ◼   ► just going to call that mov and you [TS]

00:25:02 ◼   ► don't have to remember that access on [TS]

00:25:03 ◼   ► the number four and then your addresses [TS]

00:25:05 ◼   ► you just you make up names for them and [TS]

00:25:07 ◼   ► then you prefer to those names in the [TS]

00:25:08 ◼   ► program and then an assembler would come [TS]

00:25:10 ◼   ► in later and take your text [TS]

00:25:11 ◼   ► representation and say okay mov that's [TS]

00:25:13 ◼   ► this instruction and you know this [TS]

00:25:15 ◼   ► symbolic name you know ax okay that's [TS]

00:25:17 ◼   ► the register this this is the value for [TS]

00:25:20 ◼   ► that register and you made up this name [TS]

00:25:22 ◼   ► for this new memory address so I'll [TS]

00:25:23 ◼   ► substitute that memory address for the [TS]

00:25:24 ◼   ► name um that was called assembly code [TS]

00:25:26 ◼   ► and the assembler was the thing that [TS]

00:25:28 ◼   ► turned it into a machine code and then [TS]

00:25:30 ◼   ► the CPU executed the machine code so [TS]

00:25:31 ◼   ► that's the first layer of abstraction [TS]

00:25:32 ◼   ► where you didn't have to write the [TS]

00:25:34 ◼   ► machine code you wrote in this thing it [TS]

00:25:36 ◼   ► was little bit nicer humans then another [TS]

00:25:37 ◼   ► program that someone wrote before you [TS]

00:25:39 ◼   ► would come and turn it into machine code [TS]

00:25:41 ◼   ► um but that was still stuck run on a [TS]

00:25:44 ◼   ► single CPU because machine code only [TS]

00:25:46 ◼   ► works on one particular CPU and assembly [TS]

00:25:48 ◼   ► code turns into machine code that only [TS]

00:25:49 ◼   ► works on one CPU so the next layer layer [TS]

00:25:52 ◼   ► abstraction was portable languages where [TS]

00:25:54 ◼   ► you could write a program and have it [TS]

00:25:55 ◼   ► execute on different CPUs because your [TS]

00:25:58 ◼   ► compiler can pilot for them the most [TS]

00:25:59 ◼   ► popular one of those is C where you [TS]

00:26:01 ◼   ► would write in the language C was called [TS]

00:26:03 ◼   ► portable assembler is kind of a a [TS]

00:26:05 ◼   ► derogatory term but basically you write [TS]

00:26:08 ◼   ► and you write in a more abstract form [TS]

00:26:09 ◼   ► that the compiler compiles into [TS]

00:26:12 ◼   ► basically machine code sometimes passing [TS]

00:26:15 ◼   ► through assembly on its way down for a [TS]

00:26:17 ◼   ► particular CPU so the same C program you [TS]

00:26:19 ◼   ► could compile for two different CPUs and [TS]

00:26:21 ◼   ► executed on two different CPUs in a wood [TS]

00:26:23 ◼   ► run but in the end it was like [TS]

00:26:26 ◼   ► higher-level concepts or stuff that the [TS]

00:26:29 ◼   ► machine would understand so I had this [TS]

00:26:31 ◼   ► the concept of types where you know [TS]

00:26:34 ◼   ► you'd have integer types and character [TS]

00:26:36 ◼   ► types and stuff like that they're all [TS]

00:26:36 ◼   ► end up being numbers behind the scenes [TS]

00:26:38 ◼   ► but these types would add constraints to [TS]

00:26:40 ◼   ► your program to make it make sure you're [TS]

00:26:41 ◼   ► doing what you thought you were doing [TS]

00:26:43 ◼   ► and you had much more complicated [TS]

00:26:44 ◼   ► statements where you'd have a single [TS]

00:26:46 ◼   ► line of code that would result in many [TS]

00:26:48 ◼   ► many many lines of assembly many many [TS]

00:26:50 ◼   ► many lines of machine code in the end [TS]

00:26:52 ◼   ► but you didn't have to write all those [TS]

00:26:53 ◼   ► lines it would figure it out for you and [TS]

00:26:55 ◼   ► that phase lasted a long time where [TS]

00:26:58 ◼   ► you're writing and see pascal those type [TS]

00:26:59 ◼   ► of compiled languages there were various [TS]

00:27:02 ◼   ► forms of you know portable assembly [TS]

00:27:04 ◼   ► language where you'd write something [TS]

00:27:06 ◼   ► that can run the many different [TS]

00:27:07 ◼   ► architectures maybe that lasted until [TS]

00:27:09 ◼   ► the nine user so that's that's a pretty [TS]

00:27:11 ◼   ► long time we've gone from the first [TS]

00:27:12 ◼   ► computer in the 60s all up the nineties [TS]

00:27:14 ◼   ► and we haven't gotten that much farther [TS]

00:27:15 ◼   ► along in abstraction but then around the [TS]

00:27:18 ◼   ► late 80s early 90s a lot of the research [TS]

00:27:21 ◼   ► progress to accept done this before but [TS]

00:27:23 ◼   ► this was the first time that popular [TS]

00:27:24 ◼   ► languages started being memory managed [TS]

00:27:27 ◼   ► where they would move even farther away [TS]

00:27:29 ◼   ► from assembly where they would basically [TS]

00:27:31 ◼   ► write a little program called a virtual [TS]

00:27:34 ◼   ► machine that would represent a computer [TS]

00:27:36 ◼   ► didn't actually exist but that was much [TS]

00:27:37 ◼   ► nicer to deal with than a CPU and then [TS]

00:27:40 ◼   ► you would write programs to that virtual [TS]

00:27:41 ◼   ► machine a virtual machine would compile [TS]

00:27:43 ◼   ► those programs down to machine code in [TS]

00:27:44 ◼   ► the machine code would execute on the [TS]

00:27:45 ◼   ► actual CPU so one more layer up there [TS]

00:27:49 ◼   ► the big the big difference and this is [TS]

00:27:50 ◼   ► there was no more a need for the [TS]

00:27:52 ◼   ► programmer to manage memory manually [TS]

00:27:54 ◼   ► sometimes didn't have to deal with it at [TS]

00:27:56 ◼   ► all they would just make variables they [TS]

00:27:57 ◼   ► were pop into existence and disappear [TS]

00:27:59 ◼   ► when they went out of scope you didn't [TS]

00:28:00 ◼   ► have to worry about where the memory [TS]

00:28:01 ◼   ► came from where I was going or who still [TS]

00:28:03 ◼   ► had references to it the virtual machine [TS]

00:28:04 ◼   ► would take care of that for you and with [TS]

00:28:08 ◼   ► that came the the ability for you to not [TS]

00:28:11 ◼   ► worry about accidentally writing over [TS]

00:28:13 ◼   ► arbitrary memory so with all the old [TS]

00:28:15 ◼   ► models since all this got turned into it [TS]

00:28:17 ◼   ► eventually a memory address or whatever [TS]

00:28:19 ◼   ► who if you ended up with a bad value [TS]

00:28:21 ◼   ► when you do reference that it as an [TS]

00:28:22 ◼   ► address then you just start scribbling [TS]

00:28:23 ◼   ► wherever the heck you wanted in memory [TS]

00:28:25 ◼   ► it was in your memory image anyway and [TS]

00:28:28 ◼   ► that would cause your program to crash [TS]

00:28:30 ◼   ► while the virtual machine once it said [TS]

00:28:32 ◼   ► no we're not going to give you any any [TS]

00:28:33 ◼   ► facility in the programming language to [TS]

00:28:35 ◼   ► grab an address to memory based on some [TS]

00:28:37 ◼   ► number and just start writing over it [TS]

00:28:38 ◼   ► it's just you're not able to do that [TS]

00:28:40 ◼   ► period of course the virtual machine [TS]

00:28:42 ◼   ► itself was usually written in a language [TS]

00:28:43 ◼   ► like C and eventually would take your [TS]

00:28:46 ◼   ► program and convert it into machine code [TS]

00:28:48 ◼   ► for the particular CPU that it's running [TS]

00:28:50 ◼   ► on sometimes they would do that at [TS]

00:28:51 ◼   ► runtime in fact and then [TS]

00:28:52 ◼   ► execute so now we're like three layers [TS]

00:28:54 ◼   ► up from maybe three or four layers up [TS]

00:28:56 ◼   ► from the actual CPU and then around that [TS]

00:28:59 ◼   ► same time maybe a little bit later the [TS]

00:29:01 ◼   ► dynamic language started to become [TS]

00:29:03 ◼   ► popular that that word really means [TS]

00:29:04 ◼   ► nothing but what it really means is [TS]

00:29:06 ◼   ► languages that are memory managed but [TS]

00:29:10 ◼   ► have even fewer constraints than the [TS]

00:29:14 ◼   ► memory manage languages like Java or C [TS]

00:29:16 ◼   ► sharp or anything like that one of the [TS]

00:29:18 ◼   ► things they threw away was that having [TS]

00:29:20 ◼   ► to deal with types they said well it [TS]

00:29:21 ◼   ► will just figure that out for use [TS]

00:29:23 ◼   ► there's no like integer types or you [TS]

00:29:25 ◼   ► know string types or anything you just [TS]

00:29:27 ◼   ► have variables and we'll figure out what [TS]

00:29:29 ◼   ► the type is for you we'll also figure [TS]

00:29:30 ◼   ► out all the memory for you we'll build [TS]

00:29:31 ◼   ► in some more nice stuff for you that [TS]

00:29:33 ◼   ► everybody wants to do anyway like [TS]

00:29:34 ◼   ► regular expressions and stuff like that [TS]

00:29:36 ◼   ► and we'll make it so that a lot of these [TS]

00:29:39 ◼   ► things compiled when you ran them so you [TS]

00:29:41 ◼   ► didn't have to compile different [TS]

00:29:42 ◼   ► executable and run the executable when [TS]

00:29:43 ◼   ► you ran the thing it would compile it at [TS]

00:29:45 ◼   ► that point and executed immediately [TS]

00:29:46 ◼   ► and JavaScript is another example of [TS]

00:29:49 ◼   ► this and so this has been a long long [TS]

00:29:53 ◼   ► road from like for example from [TS]

00:29:54 ◼   ► JavaScript to machine code because now [TS]

00:29:56 ◼   ► think about a modern JavaScript engine [TS]

00:29:59 ◼   ► in a web browser right so you've got [TS]

00:30:01 ◼   ► this language that doesn't have anything [TS]

00:30:03 ◼   ► to do with memory or pointers or [TS]

00:30:04 ◼   ► anything like that and that gets [TS]

00:30:07 ◼   ► compiled on to usually some sort of [TS]

00:30:09 ◼   ► virtual machine in your browser which is [TS]

00:30:11 ◼   ► itself written in the language like C or [TS]

00:30:13 ◼   ► C++ which ends up being compiled and [TS]

00:30:17 ◼   ► executing in machine code and sometimes [TS]

00:30:19 ◼   ► even assembly on you know for the tight [TS]

00:30:21 ◼   ► loops inside the JavaScript engines on [TS]

00:30:23 ◼   ► your CPU so that's the big trail through [TS]

00:30:27 ◼   ► what has happened to two programming [TS]

00:30:29 ◼   ► languages over the years and how [TS]

00:30:32 ◼   ► abstraction has increased over time I [TS]

00:30:33 ◼   ► don't think people would disagree with [TS]

00:30:34 ◼   ► that you say to people writing assembly [TS]

00:30:36 ◼   ► today yeah some people still write in [TS]

00:30:37 ◼   ► assembly sometimes like that guy who's [TS]

00:30:38 ◼   ► writing the JavaScript engine for your [TS]

00:30:41 ◼   ► browser sometimes it is some particular [TS]

00:30:42 ◼   ► tight loop inside the virtual machine [TS]

00:30:45 ◼   ► that runs JavaScript you wanted to be [TS]

00:30:46 ◼   ► super fasty baby you do it and assembly [TS]

00:30:48 ◼   ► you know but the vast majority people [TS]

00:30:51 ◼   ► are not writing an assembly versus you [TS]

00:30:52 ◼   ► know in the 60s and 70s you know you're [TS]

00:30:55 ◼   ► writing an assembly if you were writing [TS]

00:30:57 ◼   ► you know like the original Mac operating [TS]

00:30:58 ◼   ► system for example is mostly written in [TS]

00:30:59 ◼   ► assembly hard to believe but like the [TS]

00:31:01 ◼   ► first GUI operating system which were [TS]

00:31:02 ◼   ► thinking I'm a super modern everything [TS]

00:31:03 ◼   ► is absolutely filled with assembly [TS]

00:31:05 ◼   ► especially for the apartment [TS]

00:31:06 ◼   ► whereas nowadays very very small parts [TS]

00:31:09 ◼   ► of the operating system are in assembly [TS]

00:31:10 ◼   ► just a few keys tiny parts and most of [TS]

00:31:13 ◼   ► it or in a higher-level language and [TS]

00:31:15 ◼   ► things like websites no one's writing [TS]

00:31:16 ◼   ► websites and assembly you know no one's [TS]

00:31:18 ◼   ► writing websites in C++ unless they're [TS]

00:31:20 ◼   ► crazy [TS]

00:31:20 ◼   ► I guess think there's one or two people [TS]

00:31:21 ◼   ► out there still doing that but uh but [TS]

00:31:23 ◼   ► the trend line is clear what are they [TS]

00:31:25 ◼   ► teaching in in the universities these [TS]

00:31:27 ◼   ► days what's the if you decide you want [TS]

00:31:29 ◼   ► to do computer jobs man I mean it makes [TS]

00:31:31 ◼   ► sense when I was when to date myself a [TS]

00:31:33 ◼   ► lot here when I was in college its [TS]

00:31:36 ◼   ► Pascal you know they were switching from [TS]

00:31:38 ◼   ► modular to Pascal and and like one of [TS]

00:31:41 ◼   ► the teachers was only doing Pascal and [TS]

00:31:44 ◼   ► to stay I guess to keep kosher with the [TS]

00:31:48 ◼   ► rest of the staff you could turn your [TS]

00:31:50 ◼   ► assignments in in modular and he would [TS]

00:31:52 ◼   ► allow that but only for the rest of the [TS]

00:31:54 ◼   ► semester [TS]

00:31:55 ◼   ► well computer as the saying goes [TS]

00:31:57 ◼   ► computer science has about as much to do [TS]

00:31:58 ◼   ► with computers as astronomy has to do [TS]

00:32:00 ◼   ► with telescopes so a lot of the things [TS]

00:32:02 ◼   ► they're using using and teaching are to [TS]

00:32:05 ◼   ► teach you concepts of computer science [TS]

00:32:07 ◼   ► which are more mathematical in nature [TS]

00:32:08 ◼   ► and the fact that they have to use an [TS]

00:32:10 ◼   ► actual language to teach you this is [TS]

00:32:11 ◼   ► almost like it's a kind of a shame [TS]

00:32:13 ◼   ► because they would rather just you know [TS]

00:32:15 ◼   ► talk about it conceptually but I guess [TS]

00:32:17 ◼   ► you got to write some sort of code that [TS]

00:32:18 ◼   ► excuse I'm not teaching you to be a [TS]

00:32:19 ◼   ► programmer as in as a trade they're [TS]

00:32:21 ◼   ► trying to teach you [TS]

00:32:22 ◼   ► concepts the concepts of computer [TS]

00:32:24 ◼   ► science and the particular language they [TS]

00:32:26 ◼   ► use to do that it's not important but [TS]

00:32:27 ◼   ► within the industry that the trend line [TS]

00:32:31 ◼   ► has been clear most working programmers [TS]

00:32:32 ◼   ► are not working in assembly they're not [TS]

00:32:34 ◼   ► working in machine code they're not even [TS]

00:32:35 ◼   ► working and see like these days they're [TS]

00:32:36 ◼   ► working in c-sharp Java you know took [TS]

00:32:39 ◼   ► over a lot of the the bulk of the [TS]

00:32:41 ◼   ► programming market when it came out I [TS]

00:32:43 ◼   ► and lots of people now working in [TS]

00:32:44 ◼   ► dynamic languages like Ruby JavaScript [TS]

00:32:46 ◼   ► Python stuff like that what are you work [TS]

00:32:47 ◼   ► in most days can you say that because I [TS]

00:32:49 ◼   ► know you're soakin girl which will flip [TS]

00:32:51 ◼   ► people out but believe it or not people [TS]

00:32:53 ◼   ► still do that and I'll talk about my [TS]

00:32:55 ◼   ► talk more about that at the end if I [TS]

00:32:56 ◼   ► have time Wow [TS]

00:32:57 ◼   ► so no we're going to make time for that [TS]

00:32:58 ◼   ► yeah we can do a whole episode on that [TS]

00:33:00 ◼   ► you know actually helps probably have [TS]

00:33:01 ◼   ► some good rants about that um can you [TS]

00:33:04 ◼   ► read your own Perl once you write it [TS]

00:33:05 ◼   ► of course I can okay yes most most [TS]

00:33:08 ◼   ► people can't it's not true all right [TS]

00:33:10 ◼   ► so that that is the premise and you [TS]

00:33:13 ◼   ► agree with it right but absolutely [TS]

00:33:15 ◼   ► gotten more abstract absolutely and I [TS]

00:33:17 ◼   ► think this is a trend that's going to [TS]

00:33:19 ◼   ► reverse [TS]

00:33:19 ◼   ► or level off or not continue I would say [TS]

00:33:23 ◼   ► it's either going to it's interesting [TS]

00:33:26 ◼   ► because you the choices you gave me are [TS]

00:33:28 ◼   ► is it going to to level off reverse or [TS]

00:33:32 ◼   ► not continue my I think it's going to [TS]

00:33:35 ◼   ► continue I think it's going to maybe [TS]

00:33:38 ◼   ► level off or continue keep continuing [TS]

00:33:40 ◼   ► alright so finally getting back to this [TS]

00:33:43 ◼   ► avoiding Copelan 2010 thing I'd be one [TS]

00:33:45 ◼   ► more quick history oh my god so yeah I [TS]

00:33:48 ◼   ► know I was tough so back in the 90s [TS]

00:33:51 ◼   ► Apple found itself kind of behind [TS]

00:33:54 ◼   ► technically Steve Jobs wasn't there at [TS]

00:33:56 ◼   ► this point he'd been kicked out into [TS]

00:33:58 ◼   ► 85-86 the company made a lot of money [TS]

00:34:00 ◼   ► and in the late 80s early 90s by [TS]

00:34:03 ◼   ► charging a lot for its hardware but as a [TS]

00:34:05 ◼   ► nineties started and Windows 95 was [TS]

00:34:07 ◼   ► looming and stuff their operating system [TS]

00:34:09 ◼   ► was behind and it was behind technically [TS]

00:34:12 ◼   ► and the two big things that had missed [TS]

00:34:13 ◼   ► if you were nerd in his period of time [TS]

00:34:14 ◼   ► you knew what Mac the classic Mac OS was [TS]

00:34:17 ◼   ► missing but the two big things that [TS]

00:34:18 ◼   ► admit that didn't have our memory [TS]

00:34:20 ◼   ► protection and pre-emptive multitasking [TS]

00:34:21 ◼   ► and those were super super important [TS]

00:34:23 ◼   ► because people were tired of their Mac's [TS]

00:34:25 ◼   ► crashing memory protection is the thing [TS]

00:34:26 ◼   ► that prevented one program from [TS]

00:34:27 ◼   ► scribbling over the memory of another [TS]

00:34:29 ◼   ► program or over the memory of the [TS]

00:34:30 ◼   ► operating system and that was important [TS]

00:34:32 ◼   ► because if you got a badly behaved [TS]

00:34:33 ◼   ► application it would take out your whole [TS]

00:34:34 ◼   ► Mac and you need to reboot and this was [TS]

00:34:36 ◼   ► increasingly common situation no it's [TS]

00:34:39 ◼   ► just fine but fine when you had 128k [TS]

00:34:41 ◼   ► because what that can you do you got 128 [TS]

00:34:43 ◼   ► k it's a miracle you can even get a GUI [TS]

00:34:44 ◼   ► on the screen with 128 kilobytes of RAM [TS]

00:34:47 ◼   ► an entire machine right but as the [TS]

00:34:49 ◼   ► machines got bigger and faster it became [TS]

00:34:52 ◼   ► unacceptable to have this limitation and [TS]

00:34:54 ◼   ► the second one was pre-emptive [TS]

00:34:55 ◼   ► multitasking pre-emptive multitasking [TS]

00:34:56 ◼   ► allows the operating system to say all [TS]

00:34:58 ◼   ► right program B you're done I'm going to [TS]

00:35:00 ◼   ► let program a run for a little while now [TS]

00:35:01 ◼   ► okay now you can run again program being [TS]

00:35:03 ◼   ► back and forth the operating system [TS]

00:35:05 ◼   ► could preempt you could say you know get [TS]

00:35:07 ◼   ► off the cpu it's time it's someone [TS]

00:35:08 ◼   ► else's turn Mac OS again when you had [TS]

00:35:11 ◼   ► 128 kilobytes of RAM you didn't expect [TS]

00:35:15 ◼   ► pre-emptive multitasking they just had [TS]

00:35:17 ◼   ► it's an amazingly get it to run at all [TS]

00:35:19 ◼   ► but they have what we called cooperative [TS]

00:35:21 ◼   ► multitasking which is kind of like the [TS]

00:35:23 ◼   ► Patriot Act's one of those nice names [TS]

00:35:24 ◼   ► who doesn't like to cooperate [TS]

00:35:25 ◼   ► cooperative multitasking isn't that the [TS]

00:35:27 ◼   ► kinder and gentler kind of no it's not [TS]

00:35:29 ◼   ► good because what it means is that if a [TS]

00:35:30 ◼   ► process gets the CPU it can only give [TS]

00:35:33 ◼   ► voluntary [TS]

00:35:33 ◼   ► gives the CPU up to another process [TS]

00:35:35 ◼   ► which meant that any process could hog [TS]

00:35:37 ◼   ► the entire CPU and no one else get any [TS]

00:35:39 ◼   ► time and programs are notoriously bad [TS]

00:35:42 ◼   ► about deciding that they don't need the [TS]

00:35:43 ◼   ► CPU anymore because that you're you're [TS]

00:35:45 ◼   ► relying on them to share to say oh you [TS]

00:35:47 ◼   ► know that everyone should behave when [TS]

00:35:48 ◼   ► you don't need to CPU give it up and [TS]

00:35:49 ◼   ► like do I need to see for you well and I [TS]

00:35:52 ◼   ► might need it I really want to give it [TS]

00:35:53 ◼   ► up right now let me just have one more [TS]

00:35:55 ◼   ► loop and check for events okay and I'll [TS]

00:35:56 ◼   ► give it up in a second you know it was a [TS]

00:35:57 ◼   ► bad situation that wasted the resources [TS]

00:35:59 ◼   ► that you had there so programs would hog [TS]

00:36:01 ◼   ► the CPU just in case they needed it or [TS]

00:36:03 ◼   ► being some sort of busy loop burning [TS]

00:36:05 ◼   ► through CPU cycles do they thought they [TS]

00:36:06 ◼   ► were the only one running and other [TS]

00:36:07 ◼   ► programs were out there starving because [TS]

00:36:08 ◼   ► they're not being given cycles anymore [TS]

00:36:10 ◼   ► alright so by the 90s it was clear that [TS]

00:36:14 ◼   ► you needed this stuff you didn't have [TS]

00:36:16 ◼   ► this stuff you started to look like [TS]

00:36:17 ◼   ► creaky old crappy technology and for [TS]

00:36:19 ◼   ► reference or people who don't know every [TS]

00:36:20 ◼   ► single modern operating system anywhere [TS]

00:36:22 ◼   ► probably on wristwatches today has both [TS]

00:36:23 ◼   ► of these speech they're super important [TS]

00:36:25 ◼   ► but back then the Mac didn't have them [TS]

00:36:27 ◼   ► and and so Apple's trying to figure out [TS]

00:36:30 ◼   ► how do we get these we know we need to [TS]

00:36:32 ◼   ► have these and like every year that [TS]

00:36:33 ◼   ► passes it's getting more and more [TS]

00:36:34 ◼   ► embarrassing that we don't have them [TS]

00:36:36 ◼   ► every time someone has to reboot their [TS]

00:36:37 ◼   ► Mac and we get those little chimes going [TS]

00:36:38 ◼   ► off during in the office and people are [TS]

00:36:40 ◼   ► complaining because things are freezing [TS]

00:36:42 ◼   ► you know we got to do this so they tried [TS]

00:36:45 ◼   ► like seven different plans about how [TS]

00:36:46 ◼   ► we're gonna get these things to our [TS]

00:36:48 ◼   ► operating system so the problem is to [TS]

00:36:50 ◼   ► add them you didn't want to like make it [TS]

00:36:53 ◼   ► so none of your existing apps worked [TS]

00:36:55 ◼   ► anymore [TS]

00:36:56 ◼   ► you can't like here's a brand new [TS]

00:36:57 ◼   ► operating system and none year old apps [TS]

00:36:58 ◼   ► work but hey guys you'll you'll come [TS]

00:37:00 ◼   ► onboard right we won't lose any [TS]

00:37:02 ◼   ► customers because of this now that was a [TS]

00:37:04 ◼   ► bad scene they needed to bring existing [TS]

00:37:07 ◼   ► customers along and make sure their apps [TS]

00:37:08 ◼   ► still ran otherwise it's like you're [TS]

00:37:09 ◼   ► starting a whole new company from [TS]

00:37:10 ◼   ► scratch and just leaving your old [TS]

00:37:11 ◼   ► customers behind that that was not going [TS]

00:37:14 ◼   ► to fly but retrofitting can we take [TS]

00:37:16 ◼   ► existing Mac operating system and add [TS]

00:37:17 ◼   ► these features well the problem was [TS]

00:37:20 ◼   ► every single existing iMac application [TS]

00:37:22 ◼   ► including the operating system itself [TS]

00:37:24 ◼   ► expected to be able to read any memory [TS]

00:37:26 ◼   ► wanted and they were all you know in one [TS]

00:37:27 ◼   ► big giant stoop together they expected [TS]

00:37:30 ◼   ► to be able to hog the CPU they just you [TS]

00:37:31 ◼   ► know they ran in this type of [TS]

00:37:33 ◼   ► environment and if you change the [TS]

00:37:35 ◼   ► environment on them every single app [TS]

00:37:36 ◼   ► would break so how do we let these guys [TS]

00:37:37 ◼   ► think that they can actually scribble [TS]

00:37:38 ◼   ► all over memory and read memory from [TS]

00:37:40 ◼   ► other applications one of my favorite [TS]

00:37:42 ◼   ► classic Mac applications was uh so if I [TS]

00:37:45 ◼   ► had a document or so [TS]

00:37:47 ◼   ► that I was editing and accidentally [TS]

00:37:48 ◼   ► closed the window without saving there [TS]

00:37:50 ◼   ► was an application that would search [TS]

00:37:52 ◼   ► through all memory in the entire machine [TS]

00:37:54 ◼   ► for uh you know a string or something [TS]

00:37:57 ◼   ► and so if I accidentally closed a [TS]

00:37:59 ◼   ► program or something and I wanted text [TS]

00:38:01 ◼   ► back that was in that I could use this [TS]

00:38:02 ◼   ► thing to sort of scram really all memory [TS]

00:38:04 ◼   ► in the entire machine and find the [TS]

00:38:05 ◼   ► document that was previously in memory [TS]

00:38:07 ◼   ► because those pages still hadn't been [TS]

00:38:08 ◼   ► overwritten well and this was not a [TS]

00:38:10 ◼   ► special privilege program this is a [TS]

00:38:12 ◼   ► program that any person can run so [TS]

00:38:13 ◼   ► really memory was just an open green [TS]

00:38:15 ◼   ► field that any any person any program [TS]

00:38:17 ◼   ► any anything could just go rummaging [TS]

00:38:19 ◼   ► through and this is what applications [TS]

00:38:21 ◼   ► expected and some of them actually took [TS]

00:38:22 ◼   ► advantage of it so you couldn't just [TS]

00:38:24 ◼   ► apply these strictures because literally [TS]

00:38:26 ◼   ► every single program would break and so [TS]

00:38:28 ◼   ► they had many failed efforts to try to [TS]

00:38:30 ◼   ► do this that this talent effort with IBM [TS]

00:38:32 ◼   ► like let's make a brand-new operating [TS]

00:38:34 ◼   ► system will partner with IBM and it'll [TS]

00:38:35 ◼   ► be so awesome people won't care they'll [TS]

00:38:37 ◼   ► jump ship from the Mac and leave all [TS]

00:38:38 ◼   ► their all the apps behinds and come with [TS]

00:38:39 ◼   ► us the Copeland project we just talked [TS]

00:38:44 ◼   ► about which is like well we'll make a [TS]

00:38:45 ◼   ► new operating system that kind of like [TS]

00:38:47 ◼   ► the old one and we'll try to get most of [TS]

00:38:49 ◼   ► the benefits of memory protection [TS]

00:38:50 ◼   ► programs email - but will have the other [TS]

00:38:52 ◼   ► mode where the old apps can run in the [TS]

00:38:54 ◼   ► old apps will still be able to crash the [TS]

00:38:55 ◼   ► whole operating system because they have [TS]

00:38:56 ◼   ► to be able to because they need to see a [TS]

00:38:57 ◼   ► whole memory but we the new apps [TS]

00:38:59 ◼   ► wouldn't and we try to gradually bring [TS]

00:39:01 ◼   ► people over to the new apps they never [TS]

00:39:02 ◼   ► shipped that it didn't work out it was a [TS]

00:39:04 ◼   ► big mess and at the point where they [TS]

00:39:07 ◼   ► were killing that project or it's like [TS]

00:39:09 ◼   ► look we spent all these years on this [TS]

00:39:10 ◼   ► thing it's still not panning out they're [TS]

00:39:11 ◼   ► like fine we just had to buy something [TS]

00:39:12 ◼   ► we gotta like we got to find something [TS]

00:39:14 ◼   ► out there and buy it so they look they [TS]

00:39:16 ◼   ► were gonna buy a company being [TS]

00:39:18 ◼   ► cooperated just started by an X Apple [TS]

00:39:20 ◼   ► guy because they had this great new [TS]

00:39:22 ◼   ► operating system that was if you ran B [TS]

00:39:25 ◼   ► OS on on the existing Apple Harbor the [TS]

00:39:26 ◼   ► day would make the Apple hardware look [TS]

00:39:27 ◼   ► amazingly fast you're like yeah that's [TS]

00:39:29 ◼   ► like their operating system already runs [TS]

00:39:31 ◼   ► on our hardware and it's way faster than [TS]

00:39:32 ◼   ► ours and it's way cooler and it's got a [TS]

00:39:33 ◼   ► lot of buzz let's buy them but they [TS]

00:39:35 ◼   ► wanted like six hundred million dollars [TS]

00:39:36 ◼   ► and Apple didn't want to pay it they [TS]

00:39:38 ◼   ► looked everywhere they considered [TS]

00:39:40 ◼   ► licensing the Windows NT kernel I think [TS]

00:39:41 ◼   ► one of the history books that I read on [TS]

00:39:43 ◼   ► this was talking about talking to the [TS]

00:39:45 ◼   ► executives who were at Apple the time [TS]

00:39:46 ◼   ► can you imagine that that was that was [TS]

00:39:48 ◼   ► one of Apple's plans and it wasn't just [TS]

00:39:49 ◼   ► like an outlier that was like of the top [TS]

00:39:52 ◼   ► three choices that was up there like [TS]

00:39:54 ◼   ► let's license the Windows NT kernel from [TS]

00:39:55 ◼   ► Microsoft and use that as a next [TS]

00:39:57 ◼   ► generation hopping system and who knows [TS]

00:39:58 ◼   ► maybe we'll be able to run Windows apps [TS]

00:40:00 ◼   ► to that [TS]

00:40:00 ◼   ► could be a benefit for a company right [TS]

00:40:02 ◼   ► in the end we know what they actually [TS]

00:40:04 ◼   ► did they ended up buying a next and [TS]

00:40:06 ◼   ► Steve Jobs and the rest is history they [TS]

00:40:08 ◼   ► got you know two great things there but [TS]

00:40:12 ◼   ► the reason I bring this up is I'm going [TS]

00:40:13 ◼   ► to compare it to what Microsoft did [TS]

00:40:14 ◼   ► Microsoft had the same exact problem [TS]

00:40:16 ◼   ► because they had a crappy operating [TS]

00:40:17 ◼   ► system with you know they even worse [TS]

00:40:19 ◼   ► problems I had segmented memory and all [TS]

00:40:20 ◼   ► sorts of crazy x86 Intel stuff to deal [TS]

00:40:23 ◼   ► with and their programs expected to be [TS]

00:40:25 ◼   ► able to read all over the place too so [TS]

00:40:26 ◼   ► but what they did is they had a plan [TS]

00:40:28 ◼   ► that was a long long multi-year plan and [TS]

00:40:31 ◼   ► they executed on it much better than [TS]

00:40:33 ◼   ► Apple they didn't go in 20 different [TS]

00:40:34 ◼   ► directions they went in one direction [TS]

00:40:35 ◼   ► and did it slowly so they introduced [TS]

00:40:37 ◼   ► Windows NT in like 1993 and it wasn't a [TS]

00:40:41 ◼   ► replacement for the existing Windows it [TS]

00:40:42 ◼   ► was this other thing that was like it [TS]

00:40:44 ◼   ► was a modern OS it had lost all those [TS]

00:40:46 ◼   ► modern features that you expected to [TS]

00:40:48 ◼   ► have and it had a backward compatibility [TS]

00:40:49 ◼   ► layer actually had a layer where you can [TS]

00:40:51 ◼   ► run POSIX programs order like UNIX [TS]

00:40:53 ◼   ► programs it had a layer where you can [TS]

00:40:54 ◼   ► run os/2 programs because I hear os/2 is [TS]

00:40:56 ◼   ► the next big thing and IBM is backing [TS]

00:40:57 ◼   ► even there they're a giant in the [TS]

00:40:58 ◼   ► industry and you could run win32 and win [TS]

00:41:01 ◼   ► 16 programs on it - and what was nice [TS]

00:41:03 ◼   ► about this was that it they never gave [TS]

00:41:05 ◼   ► you this promise that everything was [TS]

00:41:07 ◼   ► going to work perfectly because it was a [TS]

00:41:09 ◼   ► different operating system and it was [TS]

00:41:10 ◼   ► intended for different audiences a whole [TS]

00:41:13 ◼   ► different user base was going to be [TS]

00:41:14 ◼   ► using NT so they weren't it wasn't like [TS]

00:41:16 ◼   ► the consumer operating system released [TS]

00:41:18 ◼   ► going from you know 95 to 98 ME or [TS]

00:41:21 ◼   ► whatever they could do things they could [TS]

00:41:23 ◼   ► afford to do things a little bit [TS]

00:41:24 ◼   ► differently yeah so for example the the [TS]

00:41:27 ◼   ► hardware requirements of NT were way [TS]

00:41:28 ◼   ► higher than the consumer OS and and it [TS]

00:41:30 ◼   ► was slower and it would run most your [TS]

00:41:32 ◼   ► apps slower if you had legacy apps and [TS]

00:41:33 ◼   ► it was just this big complicated bloated [TS]

00:41:36 ◼   ► enterprise-e thing that they were not [TS]

00:41:37 ◼   ► selling to the average pcs were not [TS]

00:41:39 ◼   ► shipping with Windows NT U in them but [TS]

00:41:40 ◼   ► it slowly started to filter its way into [TS]

00:41:42 ◼   ► corporations for like servers another [TS]

00:41:43 ◼   ► serious Hardware right but this was [TS]

00:41:45 ◼   ► important because it gave Microsoft's [TS]

00:41:47 ◼   ► next-generation operating system a place [TS]

00:41:49 ◼   ► to grow up a place to say alright this [TS]

00:41:51 ◼   ► is gonna be a little bit creepy and [TS]

00:41:52 ◼   ► weird at first and it might be bugging [TS]

00:41:53 ◼   ► we can't quite figure it out and it's [TS]

00:41:55 ◼   ► got these really high hardware [TS]

00:41:56 ◼   ► requirements and it's slow and [TS]

00:41:57 ◼   ► everything but you know enterprise [TS]

00:41:59 ◼   ► developers enterprise customers can deal [TS]

00:42:01 ◼   ► with that and they have servers they're [TS]

00:42:03 ◼   ► going to spend the money on good [TS]

00:42:03 ◼   ► hardware anyway so you know they figured [TS]

00:42:07 ◼   ► let's let's let's go with this and let [TS]

00:42:09 ◼   ► it sort of grow there someone when the [TS]

00:42:12 ◼   ► chat rooms bring up the whole os/2 thing [TS]

00:42:13 ◼   ► with IBM and how Windows [TS]

00:42:14 ◼   ► he was a sort of betrayal of that plan [TS]

00:42:16 ◼   ► this I don't want to get too far into [TS]

00:42:17 ◼   ► the history there's a lot of intrigue [TS]

00:42:19 ◼   ► involving this but I said we're just [TS]

00:42:20 ◼   ► going to pick them up the horses that we [TS]

00:42:21 ◼   ► know eventually won so what happened is [TS]

00:42:25 ◼   ► that Windows NT grew in that little [TS]

00:42:27 ◼   ► protected environment of the enterprise [TS]

00:42:29 ◼   ► through several versions and eventually [TS]

00:42:31 ◼   ► when the time was right [TS]

00:42:32 ◼   ► Microsoft did the big switcheroo and [TS]

00:42:34 ◼   ► they said okay our next version of [TS]

00:42:35 ◼   ► Windows you know the one that comes on [TS]

00:42:36 ◼   ► your PC that you buy in the store that [TS]

00:42:38 ◼   ► the kind of windows our next version of [TS]

00:42:40 ◼   ► real Windows is going to have windows NT [TS]

00:42:42 ◼   ► at the core and Windows 2000 was the [TS]

00:42:44 ◼   ► first one to do that it was still kind [TS]

00:42:46 ◼   ► of like a corporate type operating [TS]

00:42:47 ◼   ► system but home users were running [TS]

00:42:49 ◼   ► Windows 2000 eventually where you buy a [TS]

00:42:51 ◼   ► PC and it would say hey this comes with [TS]

00:42:52 ◼   ► the great new Windows 2000 and by that [TS]

00:42:54 ◼   ► point they had wrung out most of the [TS]

00:42:56 ◼   ► issues in terms of 132 and 116 [TS]

00:42:58 ◼   ► compatibility and stuff like that and [TS]

00:42:59 ◼   ► most applications had been updated to be [TS]

00:43:01 ◼   ► you know when NT savvy or whatever you [TS]

00:43:03 ◼   ► want to call it so it was it was time [TS]

00:43:05 ◼   ► for the transition and Windows XP was [TS]

00:43:08 ◼   ► the the Big Bang where like even if you [TS]

00:43:09 ◼   ► had an upgraded Windows 2000 by the time [TS]

00:43:11 ◼   ► XP came along which was also based in [TS]

00:43:12 ◼   ► the Windows NT core everybody had [TS]

00:43:14 ◼   ► Windows XP in fact it's probably still [TS]

00:43:16 ◼   ► on your PC right now if you didn't [TS]

00:43:17 ◼   ► upgrade to Windows 7 because nobody used [TS]

00:43:19 ◼   ► Vista so that was their transition [TS]

00:43:22 ◼   ► strategy was very different than apples [TS]

00:43:24 ◼   ► it was a really long term plan where [TS]

00:43:25 ◼   ► they had this thing on the back burner [TS]

00:43:26 ◼   ► for a long time but it took them that [TS]

00:43:28 ◼   ► long to get you know the issues sorted [TS]

00:43:29 ◼   ► out now [TS]

00:43:31 ◼   ► I bring this up because this this [TS]

00:43:33 ◼   ► struggle to modernize that Mac operating [TS]

00:43:35 ◼   ► system almost killed Apple it almost [TS]

00:43:36 ◼   ► killed the entire company there are many [TS]

00:43:38 ◼   ► things that almost killed it you know in [TS]

00:43:40 ◼   ► terms of pricing and hardware and just [TS]

00:43:43 ◼   ► bad lack of leadership and too many [TS]

00:43:45 ◼   ► products and stuff like that but the [TS]

00:43:46 ◼   ► technical issues especially for a [TS]

00:43:47 ◼   ► computer company I would say are at [TS]

00:43:48 ◼   ► least 50% of what almost killed Apple [TS]

00:43:50 ◼   ► they did not have a competitive product [TS]

00:43:52 ◼   ► and they didn't know how to fix it and [TS]

00:43:53 ◼   ► the markets saw that and saw that them [TS]

00:43:55 ◼   ► saw them drowning and waving their hands [TS]

00:43:57 ◼   ► in the air and saying we have a [TS]

00:43:58 ◼   ► technical problem we are not competent [TS]

00:44:00 ◼   ► to fix it it every year announced a new [TS]

00:44:01 ◼   ► plan and then we canceled the plan then [TS]

00:44:03 ◼   ► we try another plan and we canceled that [TS]

00:44:04 ◼   ► one and investors don't like that and [TS]

00:44:05 ◼   ► investors tanked that the stock everyone [TS]

00:44:07 ◼   ► else at Apple I think they're going [TS]

00:44:09 ◼   ► under I mean even if you didn't know why [TS]

00:44:10 ◼   ► even if you didn't know anything about [TS]

00:44:12 ◼   ► Apple doesn't have memory protection and [TS]

00:44:14 ◼   ► pre-emptive multitasking you knew they [TS]

00:44:15 ◼   ► were flailing you knew they were trying [TS]

00:44:17 ◼   ► to look for some next generation thing [TS]

00:44:18 ◼   ► to do and they were not figuring it out [TS]

00:44:20 ◼   ► and you know they almost died the only [TS]

00:44:22 ◼   ► thing that saved them was getting that [TS]

00:44:24 ◼   ► that trio of things a jobs next in [TS]

00:44:26 ◼   ► Moore's law because I got the man job [TS]

00:44:28 ◼   ► who's going to be their leader for the [TS]

00:44:29 ◼   ► future they got a software our UNIX you [TS]

00:44:31 ◼   ► know the next base the operating system [TS]

00:44:33 ◼   ► which would have UNIX underneath it and [TS]

00:44:34 ◼   ► all what modern stuff in it and they got [TS]

00:44:37 ◼   ► the hardware to run at all Moore's law [TS]

00:44:38 ◼   ► eventually made max fast enough where [TS]

00:44:39 ◼   ► they could take that UNIX operating [TS]

00:44:41 ◼   ► system and run it on their hardware with [TS]

00:44:44 ◼   ► these you know the blue blocks for [TS]

00:44:45 ◼   ► backward compatibility with Mac [TS]

00:44:46 ◼   ► applications and you finally have enough [TS]

00:44:48 ◼   ► RAM to do all that stuff these are [TS]

00:44:49 ◼   ► solutions that maybe weren't feasible in [TS]

00:44:51 ◼   ► the early days but became feasible when [TS]

00:44:53 ◼   ► the harbor caught up with it and then in [TS]

00:44:54 ◼   ► the end you know Mac OS 10 10.0 was slow [TS]

00:44:57 ◼   ► as molasses anyway and still was a tough [TS]

00:44:59 ◼   ► sell if it wasn't for jobs you know [TS]

00:45:00 ◼   ► pressing it and saying well you know [TS]

00:45:01 ◼   ► this Mac OS 10 thing is pretty crappy [TS]

00:45:03 ◼   ► but look shiny and Steve Jobs is pretty [TS]

00:45:06 ◼   ► cool you know took years to get that up [TS]

00:45:08 ◼   ► speed but this crisis did almost kill [TS]

00:45:10 ◼   ► the company now the point of the [TS]

00:45:13 ◼   ► avoiding Copeland 2010 article was is [TS]

00:45:16 ◼   ► there another crisis like this this [TS]

00:45:18 ◼   ► Copeland crisis I called the köppen [TS]

00:45:20 ◼   ► crisis because Copeland was the you know [TS]

00:45:23 ◼   ► the most well known project that was [TS]

00:45:25 ◼   ► going to save apple from its crappy [TS]

00:45:27 ◼   ► operating system and it's the one that [TS]

00:45:28 ◼   ► cratered right so is there some sort of [TS]

00:45:31 ◼   ► crisis like this looming in Apple's [TS]

00:45:32 ◼   ► future now the new apples on its feet [TS]

00:45:34 ◼   ► it's got Mac OS 10 everything settled [TS]

00:45:37 ◼   ► doesn't have to worry about that [TS]

00:45:37 ◼   ► pre-emptive multitasking memory [TS]

00:45:39 ◼   ► protection stuff anymore it's it's got [TS]

00:45:40 ◼   ► all these other you know great things [TS]

00:45:42 ◼   ► going on but is there another crisis [TS]

00:45:44 ◼   ► like this a technical crisis in Apple's [TS]

00:45:46 ◼   ► future that that they have to worry [TS]

00:45:49 ◼   ► about and my conclusion in the article [TS]

00:45:51 ◼   ► was that yes there is a problem like [TS]

00:45:53 ◼   ► that lurking out in Apple's future and [TS]

00:45:55 ◼   ► it's a type of problem where just like [TS]

00:45:58 ◼   ► the operating system problem it doesn't [TS]

00:45:59 ◼   ► seem to be a good solution for and the [TS]

00:46:00 ◼   ► problem is that what Apple lacks now [TS]

00:46:03 ◼   ► that they will eventually need is a [TS]

00:46:05 ◼   ► memory managed language and API for [TS]

00:46:07 ◼   ► programming Mac applications because as [TS]

00:46:10 ◼   ► we all know Mac applications today are [TS]

00:46:11 ◼   ► written Objective C which is a C based [TS]

00:46:14 ◼   ► language which uses pointers and all [TS]

00:46:15 ◼   ► that good stuff and the API is built for [TS]

00:46:18 ◼   ► Objective C and it links to a lot of C [TS]

00:46:20 ◼   ► libraries and your programming and C [TS]

00:46:23 ◼   ► basically and the reason I think this is [TS]

00:46:24 ◼   ► a problem is because like we just went [TS]

00:46:26 ◼   ► through the abstraction of programming [TS]

00:46:29 ◼   ► languages increases over time and I [TS]

00:46:31 ◼   ► don't think that's going to stop I don't [TS]

00:46:33 ◼   ► think that's ever going to stop and so [TS]

00:46:34 ◼   ► you're in a situation where Apple is [TS]

00:46:36 ◼   ► using a C based language but everybody [TS]

00:46:38 ◼   ► else on the desktop platforms is not [TS]

00:46:40 ◼   ► everybody else too [TS]

00:46:41 ◼   ► because some you know took a look at [TS]

00:46:43 ◼   ► what they had and executed on a plan to [TS]

00:46:45 ◼   ► change so you had Java which sort of [TS]

00:46:47 ◼   ► came out of nowhere for set-top boxes [TS]

00:46:48 ◼   ► and took over the entire enterprise [TS]

00:46:50 ◼   ► software industry that was you know hey [TS]

00:46:52 ◼   ► everybody stop programming C++ with [TS]

00:46:54 ◼   ► pointers start programming job and no [TS]

00:46:55 ◼   ► pointers right and that just swept [TS]

00:46:57 ◼   ► through like crazy and you had Microsoft [TS]

00:46:59 ◼   ► which again [TS]

00:47:00 ◼   ► to to its credit had a multi-year really [TS]

00:47:03 ◼   ► complicated plan to to get away from [TS]

00:47:05 ◼   ► what they were programming which was C [TS]

00:47:06 ◼   ► and C++ they came up with this common [TS]

00:47:08 ◼   ► language runtime which was like a [TS]

00:47:09 ◼   ► virtual machine that sort of learned [TS]

00:47:11 ◼   ► from the mistakes of the Java Virtual [TS]

00:47:12 ◼   ► Machine or if you want to be less [TS]

00:47:14 ◼   ► charitable copy the Java Virtual Machine [TS]

00:47:16 ◼   ► and made a few tweaks here in there and [TS]

00:47:18 ◼   ► change the letters but either way I [TS]

00:47:19 ◼   ► think they learn from mistakes of the [TS]

00:47:21 ◼   ► JVM and did something better than they [TS]

00:47:23 ◼   ► did c-sharp which again if you want to [TS]

00:47:25 ◼   ► be unkind say it's just a bad clone of [TS]

00:47:26 ◼   ► Java but they took what Java had done [TS]

00:47:29 ◼   ► learned from Javas mistakes made a new [TS]

00:47:31 ◼   ► language called C sharp that looked a [TS]

00:47:32 ◼   ► little more like C and had its own [TS]

00:47:34 ◼   ► unique features and then they revised [TS]

00:47:35 ◼   ► like crazy they made C sharp they [TS]

00:47:37 ◼   ► version the language and just kept [TS]

00:47:38 ◼   ► coming out with new versions of XI sharp [TS]

00:47:40 ◼   ► that were better and better and had more [TS]

00:47:41 ◼   ► and more features tutor try to make them [TS]

00:47:42 ◼   ► you know more palatable to programmers [TS]

00:47:45 ◼   ► and c-sharp ran on the common language [TS]

00:47:47 ◼   ► runtime and then finally they have a [TS]

00:47:48 ◼   ► dotnet api's which were a new set of API [TS]

00:47:51 ◼   ► is not the old one 32 80s but a brand [TS]

00:47:53 ◼   ► new set of API is tailored for a modern [TS]

00:47:55 ◼   ► memory managed language to run on a [TS]

00:47:56 ◼   ► common language runtime that was going [TS]

00:47:58 ◼   ► to replace you know every part of their [TS]

00:48:01 ◼   ► old thing their old c c++ base 132 win [TS]

00:48:03 ◼   ► 16 MFC all those things were going to [TS]

00:48:05 ◼   ► replace relays not net api's and this [TS]

00:48:07 ◼   ► this process has tooken has taken many [TS]

00:48:10 ◼   ► many many years and tons of Rd and lots [TS]

00:48:12 ◼   ► of money and lots of really smart people [TS]

00:48:13 ◼   ► because you can't just flip a switch and [TS]

00:48:15 ◼   ► get this stuff like they invented a [TS]

00:48:16 ◼   ► virtual machine a language and a new API [TS]

00:48:18 ◼   ► for their platform and they're still [TS]

00:48:20 ◼   ► doing it they're still in the process of [TS]

00:48:21 ◼   ► trying to transition people away from [TS]

00:48:22 ◼   ► 1:32 and stuff like that so it you know [TS]

00:48:24 ◼   ► it's not like you can't just start this [TS]

00:48:27 ◼   ► and then be done within a year this this [TS]

00:48:29 ◼   ► initiative from Microsoft is taking [TS]

00:48:30 ◼   ► about five years seven ten it's a long [TS]

00:48:34 ◼   ► time this point they're still not done [TS]

00:48:35 ◼   ► with it so what I was looking for is how [TS]

00:48:39 ◼   ► is Apple going to match this because [TS]

00:48:41 ◼   ► they're still back on a sea-based [TS]

00:48:42 ◼   ► language and as far as I knew at the [TS]

00:48:44 ◼   ► time in 2005 they didn't have a plan to [TS]

00:48:47 ◼   ► say here's how we're going to move away [TS]

00:48:48 ◼   ► from objective-c [TS]

00:48:49 ◼   ► you know here's our next language in [TS]

00:48:52 ◼   ► runtime so in back in 2005 I considered [TS]

00:48:54 ◼   ► the alternatives [TS]

00:48:55 ◼   ► so what are the possibilities what can [TS]

00:48:57 ◼   ► they do one of the possibilities is all [TS]

00:49:00 ◼   ► right so pick one of those other [TS]

00:49:01 ◼   ► languages pick Java or C sharp or some [TS]

00:49:03 ◼   ► well you know there's plenty of [TS]

00:49:03 ◼   ► languages out there that are memory [TS]

00:49:04 ◼   ► manage languages why don't you just use [TS]

00:49:06 ◼   ► one of those you don't need to invent [TS]

00:49:07 ◼   ► your own language even back then it was [TS]

00:49:10 ◼   ► kind of clear to me that Apple really [TS]

00:49:13 ◼   ► was not into using some depending on [TS]

00:49:15 ◼   ► someone for something that important [TS]

00:49:16 ◼   ► this was even before it was this before [TS]

00:49:19 ◼   ► Safari I don't know but it is before [TS]

00:49:21 ◼   ► Apple had decided not to use GCC anymore [TS]

00:49:23 ◼   ► and it wanted its own compiler before [TS]

00:49:25 ◼   ► Apple didn't want flash on its platform [TS]

00:49:26 ◼   ► you know before all of these things it [TS]

00:49:29 ◼   ► was already clear that Apple did not [TS]

00:49:30 ◼   ► want to be dependent on someone else [TS]

00:49:32 ◼   ► they wouldn't want to pick Java for [TS]

00:49:33 ◼   ► example because now like you're holding [TS]

00:49:34 ◼   ► to Sun and I sure as hell would want to [TS]

00:49:36 ◼   ► pick c-sharp because now you're [TS]

00:49:37 ◼   ► beholding the Microsoft report that one [TS]

00:49:39 ◼   ► range you know and maybe they could do [TS]

00:49:41 ◼   ► an embrace and extend where they just [TS]

00:49:42 ◼   ► take Java or C sharp and extend it and [TS]

00:49:45 ◼   ► give it a new name and just start [TS]

00:49:46 ◼   ► developing on their own but Apple the [TS]

00:49:48 ◼   ► apple of 2005 was not yet ready to do [TS]

00:49:50 ◼   ► that type of thing like where they just [TS]

00:49:52 ◼   ► said great that's an open source thing [TS]

00:49:53 ◼   ► or that's an open standard we're just [TS]

00:49:54 ◼   ► going to take that and you know rename [TS]

00:49:58 ◼   ► it call it you know Apple something or [TS]

00:50:00 ◼   ► other and just go off in our own [TS]

00:50:01 ◼   ► direction and we will take full [TS]

00:50:02 ◼   ► responsibility for development of it [TS]

00:50:05 ◼   ► the other possibility I thought of was a [TS]

00:50:08 ◼   ► objective-c with garbage collection at [TS]

00:50:10 ◼   ► that point garbage collection was [TS]

00:50:11 ◼   ► clearly telegraphed as something Apple [TS]

00:50:13 ◼   ► was looking into it right I kind of [TS]

00:50:16 ◼   ► rejected that one as well just because [TS]

00:50:17 ◼   ► garbage collection means you don't have [TS]

00:50:19 ◼   ► to deal with manual memory management [TS]

00:50:20 ◼   ► but it still means that when you're [TS]

00:50:23 ◼   ► programming you're like one bad pointer [TS]

00:50:24 ◼   ► dereference away from scribbling all [TS]

00:50:26 ◼   ► over memory like it doesn't change the [TS]

00:50:27 ◼   ► nature of the language it just makes it [TS]

00:50:29 ◼   ► so you probably don't have to deal with [TS]

00:50:30 ◼   ► the memory management yourself but [TS]

00:50:31 ◼   ► you're still like down there at the Bell [TS]

00:50:33 ◼   ► net bare metal and you're still writing [TS]

00:50:34 ◼   ► and portable assembly and you still have [TS]

00:50:37 ◼   ► all those things that make CC you know [TS]

00:50:39 ◼   ► you've got all that the casting and [TS]

00:50:41 ◼   ► there's the node that to their type [TS]

00:50:43 ◼   ► system and there's no native strings in [TS]

00:50:46 ◼   ► the native collection classes it's [TS]

00:50:47 ◼   ► portable assembly and garbage collection [TS]

00:50:48 ◼   ► doesn't change that about the language [TS]

00:50:50 ◼   ► and the final thing was bridges so you [TS]

00:50:55 ◼   ► had things where you could take some [TS]

00:50:56 ◼   ► other higher-level language and Bridget [TS]

00:50:59 ◼   ► to objective-c so spy Objective C Ruby [TS]

00:51:01 ◼   ► cocoa JRuby yeah [TS]

00:51:04 ◼   ► camel bones no one knows what camel [TS]

00:51:06 ◼   ► bones that was a pearl bridge to gogo I [TS]

00:51:08 ◼   ► think slowly but there [TS]

00:51:09 ◼   ► bridges all it's not like I mentioned [TS]

00:51:10 ◼   ► Jerry that's that's one of the big ones [TS]

00:51:12 ◼   ► now and they're actually in some cases [TS]

00:51:13 ◼   ► getting better performance out of the [TS]

00:51:15 ◼   ► bridges than they are but do use bridges [TS]

00:51:17 ◼   ► well so here's what I say about bridges [TS]

00:51:19 ◼   ► or what I said back then in my opinion [TS]

00:51:21 ◼   ► really hasn't changed I even if you are [TS]

00:51:23 ◼   ► writing in a higher-level language the [TS]

00:51:26 ◼   ► API that you're writing to is still [TS]

00:51:27 ◼   ► built for a lower-level language so you [TS]

00:51:30 ◼   ► spend a lot of time building up [TS]

00:51:31 ◼   ► structures that make absolutely no sense [TS]

00:51:33 ◼   ► in the higher-level language just to [TS]

00:51:34 ◼   ► appease the API that was written for the [TS]

00:51:36 ◼   ► lower-level language and and you're not [TS]

00:51:38 ◼   ► using any of the unique features of the [TS]

00:51:40 ◼   ► higher-level language you know what I [TS]

00:51:42 ◼   ► mean [TS]

00:51:42 ◼   ► where if your high-level language [TS]

00:51:43 ◼   ► supports you know arbitrary collections [TS]

00:51:46 ◼   ► of stuff because it's got a native array [TS]

00:51:47 ◼   ► class or it's got you know a native [TS]

00:51:49 ◼   ► associative array structure you're still [TS]